20 Episode results for "under secretary"
Midday News Brief for Wednesday, February 19th
"For those fortunate enough to help the person who has always been there hero. Find The care guides you need to help at AARP dot org slash caregiving brought to you by AARP and the Ad Council. I'm Jay Waylon. The newsroom of the Wall Street Journal in New York China has revoked the press credentials of Three Wall Street Journal reporters based in Beijing. It's the first time in decades that the Chinese government has expelled multiple journalists from one international news organization at the same time. The expulsions followed widespread public anger at the headline of a journal. Opinion piece was published earlier this month. Wall Street Journal Publisher and Dow Jones. Ceo William Lewis said. He was disappointed by the decision to expel the journalists and ask the Foreign Ministry to Reconsider John Rude. The Pentagon's Under Secretary of Defense for policy in considered one of the top officials in the department is leaving his post people familiar with the matter. Tell the journal that Defense Secretary Mark Esper- removed route at the request of the White House last year. Rude wrote a letter to Congress saying that Ukraine had made sufficient progress in fighting corruption to qualify for continued. Us military aid rude defended that finding even after the White House suspended assist Ukraine. It is unclear. Whether routes role in Ukraine funding controversy played a part in his removal and to hedge funds or reducing their ties to the embattled sackler family the hedge funds which together are worth roughly one point three billion dollars of each redeemed investments by private sackler investment firm. That's according to people familiar with the changes the sackler zone purdue Pharma which makes the Painkiller Oxycontin and thousands of lawsuits have been filed against purdue in recent years accusing the company of helping fuel. The nation's OPIOID epidemic through deceptive marketing of Oxycontin. We have more details on these stories and other news of the day. Wsj.com and the WSJ APP.
Ep. 360 Richard Stengel
"And now from Luminary Media and the University of Chicago the Institute of Politics The axle with your host. David axelrod this season. We're working with a new podcast network called luminary which allows us to continue investing in the show and bringing you more important conversations like the one coming up all without ads for additional episodes of the x files. You'll need to download and listen on luminaries podcast APP. The luminary APP is free and has loads of free free podcasts. You may already listen to like my other show hacks on tap plus premium ad free shows. You won't find anywhere else like on second the thought with Trevor Noah or fiasco with Leon. nathe just go to luminary dot link slash the X.. Files that's luminary doubt links slash the X.. Files House to start your free trial and now to our conversation sat down recently with Rick Stengel. Who is it's not only one of the most distinguished journalists of our time but also one of the most outspoken voices about the menace of disinformation in the modern media age H? He's the former managing editor of Time magazine. He was a chief executive of the National Constitution Center and he served as Undersecretary of State for public diplomacy in public affairs under President Obama in that role He spent a great deal of time. Trying to counter Russian disinformation and Isis propaganda and that gave brize to his latest book information. Wars how we lost the global battle against disinformation. And what we can do about it. Here's our conversation. I'm all for the promotion of democracy but if countries don't have the civic institution they don't have the history of it they don't have an understanding of it you know we could push them too fast and too far to embrace a kind of Jeffersonian democracy when it when it isn't necessarily going to work and actually one of the things we see on the world stage now. Is that the China model where the Chinese are saying. Well yeah these guys may actually even believe what they say about democracy but democracy doesn't function sinead seems to me. This is a great danger right. Now that the Chinese I mean we are in the twenty first century and the Chinese are saying maybe that model worked once. But that's not the mile. Wow that's gonNa work today and partly you know we design these democracies to move slowly when there's when there's great division and changes coming very rapidly Lee because of technology and you have this mismatch that I think is creating a lot of tension and You know I think the Chinese have from a propaganda. Standpoint are taking advantage of it frankly Putin is is Taking advantage of it so you became. You took a job. As Under Secretary of State for public diplomacy and public affairs you finally became the public servant. Your father hoped you you would be L. Bought your boss offered me a job and I very happy to go work for and not I wanNA point out because he was man of the year twice This was based on your experience. And your your Qualifications and interests And a lot of what you did was focused on this issue of social media. How information in is is is transported? And you came at a time when Isis emerged and I think actually I. Maybe I'm imagining this. I think President President Trump said the other day taught with about how Isis had mastered social media and Is so you're you're sort of leading along the. US effort at least from the diplomatic side to combat all of that. Tell me about that experience so so yes about a few weeks after after I started the job as under secretary of State for public diplomacy and public affairs which is in some ways kind of a communications job at it talks about. You're supposed to talk about America. Story abroad and public. Diplomacy is about people to people diplomacy but within a few weeks of being in the job two things happened the first Isis beheading of the American journalists and Putin's annexation of Crimea part of Ukraine and suddenly in both cases as I saw all of this social media propaganda disinformation misinformation that I just had never witnessed before even though I've spent my whole life in media and in general and and it kind of changed my whole view of this and one of the entities underneath me. Was something called the Center for Strategic Counterterrorism Communications Indications which was a little group started by Hillary Clinton to combat al-Qaeda on social media and they saw the coming of Isis. And then when and when I was so outraged by the Russian disinformation around the invasion of Crimea and Ukraine we started a little Cana- Russian group at the State Department I think we call it. The Ukraine Task Force and so those became the might kind of two Planets revolved around the whole time. I was at the State Department. Did you see I should ask parenthetically Did you see any of any indications of of Russian incursions into elections around Europe or our our own. Oh absolutely so They were very involved in Brexit. I mean I have some stuff in my book about Nigel Faraj. Yes seeing a columnists for Russia today and They were distant the and before that primary brexit advocate. And so yes. I'm sorry but I took this out of the book because it's seems Esoteric but based supported this referendum. In the Netherlands there was they they basically basically got a referendum in the Netherlands where they fool people into voting for it and the referendum was about whether to support Ukraine being closer to the E. U. or not and then they created soon Nami of disinformation in the Netherlands. The Dutch people voted against it. This happened about six months before brexit and I argue that it was kind of template for breakfast. They realize that's what we can do this in the Netherlands. Why why can't we do it? In Britain and and they have supported all of these independence movements around the world because they see them as undermining undermining democracy undermining the cohesion of democracy. So they'll support the separatists in Quebec and in Spain and all these other places that that's their you know anti democracy movement and it is a very cheap and an underground way to wage war that they really can't afford two way exactly it's an ACO conventional ways right. I mean you can't for for for for the price of You know Tiny tiny missile. They set up this Internet research agency and Saint Petersburg with four or five hundred people Cost Way less than F thirty five five. So it's asymmetric warfare and part of what's dangerous about this global information warfare like all kinds of asymmetric warfare is that now all the people who can't afford board to be in Connecticut warfare can afford to be in Info- information it's it's some folks with laptops and North Koreans Iranians wins. Yeah and I mean the Iranians have been involved in it before the Chinese. Do it in a different way but I mean and now of course non-state actors do it. Isis was a non-state onstage actor. That got involved in this So you you launch this effort. How much progress did you make in in in countermeasures Well I to be honest. Very little in the book is is is pretty astringent on how much government can do you know David. I mean one of the things in government. Is that when you're against something. If you put the word counter in front of you feel like you're doing something about it so counter terrorism or counter Russian propaganda and I actually think. Government being involved is mostly counterproductive in the sense that we are the enemy of most of these people. I mean you know the the Russians Isis of saying that the US government is responsible for all these terrible things that are happening to you. So would a tweet from the Under Secretary of State for Ramsey have any purchase on any. And what your your inspiration and you're right and frankly frankly. We learned this in campaigns that peer to peer correspondences are far. Were far more effective than correspondences from the candidate campaign to a voter And the same is true here that if people hear from sources that they respect that they have with whom they have a personal Contact or relationship or our regard Have they have a better chance of making an impact so we institutions so we decided to the revelation and probably everybody very has. This eventually is that it shouldn't be US doing the messaging but we can support people whose messaging is more powerful so in Kenner Isis Speights. We help film Women who lost their husbands or their sons in the counter Russian space. We helped support Ukrainian grassroots organizations. That were were really being hit it by this disinformation and by the way we're also telling stories about the the deaths of Russian soldiers. In Ukraine Russian media was hiding one of the One of the challenges here is that Is Information relativism. That you know we. We all celebrated the Internet. A A friend of mine was saying this to me this morning. We celebrated the Inter earning. Because it co it collapsed hierarchies but but in a sense you you know truth and facts were a hierarchy that we valued more than other information now. It is It is hard to distinguish extinguish Between the two and in fact we have a whole presidency. I would argue. That is politically predicated on that that you know I think one of the everybody laughed when she said it. But when Kellyanne Conway said in January of two thousand seventeen we he has he has alternative. Turn it alternative facts. She was serious about that. And that's the way we have proceeded. What do we do about that? Yes suggested is to that and I mean in my actual confirmation hearing speech I quoted Pat Moynihan's great line. You're you're entitled to Your Own Opinion. You're not entitled to to your own facts. But more and more people feel. They're entitled to their own facts that there's no kind of source resource where people trust it as this is a fact. And this is not we adopt sources that affirm our own points of we get in our virtual reality silos who's in which are user affirm but not necessarily informed. Yes so that's confirmation bias and I write about these cognitive biases but now that's a human impulse. I mean that has been around forever. It's just that the social media is the most affected delivery forced upon a time media was pushed on you. Now we pull it in and we pull in the stuff adopted we already agree with. Yeah Yeah so food there are two people who you interviewed who I think are somehow relevant to this discussion. When you were still still at time one was Julian assange from wikileaks? And the other words Mark Zuckerberg. Yes so I mean assigns has has become A A a very bad actor and You know wikileaks was an accomplice to this. Rise in decimation into Russian disinformation and and and it's funny in the scene in the book where where I have seen with mark and secretary Kerry at the facebook headquarters the thing that Zuckerberg wanted to talk to secretary Kerry about was Russia's data localization law which is at sounds less attack. But it's this idea. And it's part of the the reason for this global rise and just information that all these countries thought. Well why AM I. Letting these big American multinational platform companies take information Asian from my citizens and the Russian data localization law that Putin pass was that all information harvested in Russia must first pass through a server physically located in Russia so this not only undermine the facebook's business but Google everybody else's but then that law was passed by every other autocratic country do you know from Turkey Brazil to China where it's closed off media space so so part of the reason for this is facebook. The premise of facebook is it uses non-professional content it uses content created by you me everybody that then they monetize through advertising and veracity. Well when you had that protected media system you know the the reporters for the New York Times or CBS News. Yes you could probably trust the content but content wants delivered by your friends and particularly your five hundredth friend or your one thousand th friend with loose ties how can you trust that content. So they so that so so it became this engine of a lot of disinformation and one of the things. I recommend. The book changes how we legally treat these companies right now. They're not considered publishers publishers. And therefore they're not liable for the content that they published but in fact they're the biggest publishers in the history of the world. And I think reforming the communications decency act regulates relates them to give them more liability for what they publish. Even though it's non-professional content would help clean up a lot of this ecosystem you you feel like How do you feel I know Zuckerberg was another of your former men or persons of the year? How do you think that facebook has dealt with this issue? I think they're trying to figure out how to deal with. And I think one of the things I talk about in the book was how actually successful full and vigilant. They were in the counter isis space in the counter Muslim extremism space. I think the Russians stuff kind of went under the radar. I mean the whole rationale. Josh analogy Russian disinformation. Is We pretend to be somebody. We're not we pretend to be Republican women voters in Tennessee. We pretend to be an are a you know oh nationalists in in Florida and and so part of it was hidden in plain sight because people weren't expecting it. It's also harder to deal with because because you don't necessarily know which you know which person is a is a real person which person is Russian and so they're trying to figure it out. I think it could have been more vigilant. And I think they've taken some stands that are that are probably counterproductive. Twitter just did and ban political advertising. I I'm not what I admire twitter for doing that but I also I also understand. The point of view is that political advertising is actually more protected. Speech than regular speech and our whole democracy is based on voters trying to figure out who to vote for in consuming information and making their own decisions about things like political advertising. So so I think they just have to be much more transparent about it you have to tell users where the WHO's buying the ad why you're targeted. It should be much more transparent but I wouldn't take off breath political advertising just yet you you talked about the fact that we treasure the First Amendment Maybe to a fault yes. I saw in traveling around the world. What an outlier? The First Amendment is when I was a journalist I was a First Amendment absolutist style love the Justice Holmes Line that the First Amendment protects not just the the ideas that we love but the ideas that we hate. I spotted that as a journalist but I found that people around the world didn't really understand that I didn't even Europeans. Certainly people in the Middle East Africans Nelson Mandela. Didn't get it so so word exceptional but I think we need to start thinking about hate speech statutes in the United States they can be tested in the courts. And of course it's GONNA decide. Well actually this is a violation of the First Amendment but all of these platform companies have their own constitutions call terms of service agreements they are not affected by by the First Amendment. The way government is they can ban different kinds of speech if they want and basically facebook does outlaw. What what passes for hate speech in European European setting so so they can do that without violating the First Amendment and You've also said you talk about the algorithms that serve rule our lives lives now but are are very much Unknown to people that they they operate below the surface. And you often don't you often don't i. Don't know how they work. And what they yield and how they guide How social media works so one of the things I do? Propose is that that the different companies need to publish their algorithms for why they want some stories go to the top stories were demoted. And why you get the information and not every user. We'll be able to understand that but but technology people will be able to understand it and say well you have this implicit bias in your algorithm that favors stories written Enviro redheads over brunettes or tall people. Over short people that will eventually filter out. And the other thing too about algorithms as I say is that these algorithms rhythms our editors right they're not human editors they're making decisions about which stories to publication at with stories to give a higher placement to that that actually proves that these content companies are publishers. Just because the editors are not human beings but algorithms doesn't mean they're not publishers And you talk about Media Literacy Chrissy as a responsibility of citizens not just So it's not just providers purveyors of this information but also so people who are receiving information have responsibilities. Yeah so I say you know. We don't have a fake news problem. We have a media literacy problem with people can't tell the difference between information information that's proven and verified versus information. That's not and I propose that that should be taught in schools Starting at a young age We need to figure out that curriculum. I think the platform companies should help pay for the for that kind of curriculum. That's a long term solution. But I even think now One of the things that they can do is is published guidelines for what they what they consider factual based content. And what isn't and and and be much more upfront. Run about that. I mean that would be a kind of a media literacy education that happens in real time for users every day before I let you go rick I have to ask you. We've gotten a a lot of visibility into sort of the State Department And and the bureaucracy of the State Department through this impeachment process and a a lot of disquiet there. You worked with a lot of these people. You may know some of the people who have become central figures in this impeachment drama. What what what is your level of concern about morale within the diplomatic core and about the hollowing out of the the diplomatic corps You know years and years of experience in people being turned out or leaving because they don't feel they're they're able to do their jobs they ex- they. They feel they should. Yes and and I actually talk about an critical bit of the State Department's bureaucracy in my book. But I think these foreign service officers these career diplomats have been absolutely heroic. I mean they're great patriots. They're they're coming forward at at risk to their careers at risk to their reputation. It a heartened me. It harms to see what I saw when I was at the State Department that these these are people who who believe in their oath of office to preserve protect and defend the constitution. Who believe that? They're working for the American public. They owe their allegiance to the public and the constitution rather then whoever is president. Sometimes that's frustrating when you're in office but I've been heartened by it at the same time I think if a Democrat is elected in two thousand twenty we shouldn't just go back to the way it was and we should figure how do we. How do we make diplomacy come into the twentieth century? Public diplomacy come into the twenty first century. One one of the things that the hollowing out that's going on now is that tillerson actually abrogated one of the one hundred classes. which are the new foreign service officers that come in so not only are people with decades of experience leaving? They're not bringing in new people who are getting trained so I think it'll be a new kind of a blank slate to start from an and I would try to be as innovative as possible. Rick Stengel The book is the information wars how he lost the global battle against this information. What we can do about it? Thank you for your service. Thank you for being here. And thanks. For many decades of great journalists. David was super pleasure. We got to talk about Nelson Mandela and correal. Yes what could be better. Okay thank you thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. For new episodes of the x files. Go to luminary dot link slash the X. files or download the luminary podcast. Thank you for listening to the X.. Files presented by Luminary Media and the University of Chicago Institute of Politics. Tech's the executive producer of the X.. Files is emily standards. The show is also produced by Aaron Buckner Samantha. Neil Katie. O'Brien an allison. Awesome seagull for more programming from the I._O._P.. Visit Politics Dot. u-s Chicago Dot E._D._U..
204: Ambassador Wendy Sherman on high-stakes negotiation and authentic leadership
"I actually think it's not about trust. I think it's about respect the people across the table from you have interests you may not think they're legitimate interest but they have interests and they have politics that they have to deal with and I need to understand that and I want them to understand my interests and my politics and see if we can find a place where some of their interests can be addressed but I never lose sight of the objective which in the case of Iran was to make sure they never have a nuclear weapon the hello and welcome to the Harvard Kennedy School policy cost. I'm your host talk. Moyo today joined by Ambassador Wendy Sherman who is professor of the practice of public leadership and the Director of the Kennedy School Center for Public Leadership Ambassador Sherman served as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs at the United States Department of State between two thousand eleven and two thousand fifteen during her remarkable career. She has been at the table for some of the most. It's challenging negotiations in recent history. She's held talks with the late. North Korean detail Kim Jong Il she sat across the table with Iranian officials to hammer route the twenty fifty nuclear weapons deal and she's bought what she's learned about authentic leadership diplomacy and succeeding as a woman in a male dominated field to a new you book which is titled. Not for the faint of heart lessons encourage power amp assistance. Welcome to policy cost embassador chairman. It's great to be with Talker so my first question given your diplomat has to be about protocal. May I call you Andy Ambassador so let's let's start with the reflections so you've worked as a diplomat. You've been at the table and some of the most challenging negotiations what's the common thread. What a some of the things things that you think about nausea look back on those times in the work that you've done particularly in the context of you coming to the Kennedy School teaching courses on negotiation and leadership well. It's very interesting that you ask that because about to teach my first course here at the Kennedy School in the second half of the fall semester and it's called leadership. I've been negotiations away from the table. Everything you need to know to get the job done and the reason for the courses that a lot of students think that the way you really get a deal done is to be in the room at the table. The table when in fact it is all the things that happen away from the table that really get the job done in any negotiation and what are some of those things some of those things include the history the norms the culture of the parties sitting at the table. people negotiate differently depending on their culture. The history among and between parties may have a lot to do whether there's any respect at the table let alone alone trust it has to do with politics and power Do you understand the power relationships. Do you understand all the stakeholders. Do you understand the politics that are playing out not only in in our country been in any other country or with any other party in the context of their organization Tation. It has to do with policy development. what's going to be your objective at the negotiation. What are the right and left guard rails. How will you know if you succeed and it also has to do with setting the table all the tools that archer disposal to set the table including your arena which is communications and public affairs affairs can very much shape what happens in the room so this a little bit about some of those elements in detail so culture. I know when I was reading your book talk a little bit about the cultures of interplay that came into the negotiations for the Iran nuclear deal and you talked about one specific example about how women and men don't shake hands and you did the you put your hand to your chest in a little bow. That's an example what other examples of of culture and sort of interplay and impact that that you've seen happen. I'd start in the Iran situation with history. Most Americans think that history begins in nineteen seventy nine when the Iranians took Americans hostage for four hundred forty four days at the start of the Iranian revolution in fact for the Iranians history starts back in the nineteen fifties when the United States working with British intelligence knocked off democratically elected prime minister are because we were afraid that Iran was going to nationalize all the oil and make it difficult for us and for Great Britain so the Iranians hostility towards the United States historically started long before hours because we put in place the Shah of Iran who was whereas very good to the United States but truly a horrible dictator to his people and brought about the Iranian Revolution in the case of with North Korea. The United States obviously fought a war on the side of South Korea against the north the north at at the time of the Korean War was the growing economy in the southwest the poor economy now the south is the behemoth in Northeast East Asia along with of course Japan and the north is the poor cousin so where you start what the history is how how people negotiate differently. Some countries are very transactional. I'd say the North Koreans are more transactional than the Iranians are the Iranians artist transactional. I mean means. They're ready to do a deal if they can get what they need and you can get what you need. They're quick to quicker to do a deal. I think than some uh-huh the Iranians are much more sophisticated negotiators very legalistic very complex. It's not to say either of these. Negotiations are easy. They're quite quite difficult but people have different negotiating styles some countries negotiate top down others negotiate bottom up and the same would be true for businesses and any organization so the history matters so when you walked into for example Iranian negotiating table. It was fairly hostile EILLY. You looked at with distrust I mean how do you get from that given the history to a point where you're actually talking and bill developing some trust that are you working towards common ground which we'll talk about later on. I actually think it's not about trust. I think it's about respect. I don't think that given the history between the United States in Iran that one can really have a basis for trust and I think it is however about having some respect act that the people across the table from you have interests and you may not think they're legitimate interest but they have interests and they have politics that they have to deal with and I respect that they have interests and that they have politics and I need to understand that and I want them to understand my interests and my politics and see if we can't find a place where some of their interests can be addressed but I never lose sight of the objective checked which in the case of Iran was to make sure they never have a nuclear weapon and a which point. Did you feel that you've got to a place where there was respect. And how did you know you would there. We got to know each other quite well. Because we spent hours and hours and hours with each other and remember this was a multilateral negotiation so I not only had to get get to know the Iranians but I had to get to know the English. I had to get to know the French I had to get to know the Germans the Russians the Chinese and all of their delegations what all of their interests were the European Union. I had to understand. US politics I I joke all the time that I negotiated inside the US administration. I negotiated with Capitol Hill. I negotiated with interest groups in the United States. I negotiated with each one of the partners in the negotiation and bilaterally and with them as a group I negotiated with Israel which had a huge interest in what we were doing it and negotiate with all the Gulf countries I negotiated in any country that had had an interest in this and yes occasionally even negotiated with Iran. It is a very complex time intensive process and all the while I was doing the negotiation I was the under secretary of state responsible for all the rest of the world so one of the things that you would do one of the things that I was doing but not the the only thing I went to fifty four countries while I was the under secretary over four years from twenty eleven to two thousand fifteen some of them more within once so it was a privilege to have the job but in exhausting job it was and you were saying that you got to know the other party at the table fairly well and that the relationships that you built over the time started to develop into respect yes I think respect for each other's positions and interests even if there was not agreement agreement respect that we couldn't get to a solution unless we all sort of came to agree on what with the objective was during this negotiation a Russia for instance invaded Ukraine and took over Crimea and and that was a situation where the United States was going to have to take some significant action to sanction Russia for this but at the same time I I was negotiating table with the Russians trying to solve another problem and I had gotten to know Sergei Rehab cough my counterpart quite well because we had actually work together with Secretary Kerry and Secretary and Foreign Minister Lavrov to negotiate the Syria Chemical Weapons Agreement so I know new Sergei rather well by now as a negotiator and he I was had great respect for his skill and you went up to him at a cocktail. I think I think in your book you mentioned that it was actually morning coffee. A coffee said it was a very busy room and I went over to him and I said Sergei. How could you possibly do what you have done and it took him a moment to realize is when I was talking about and then he realized it was Ukraine. He looked at me for a moment. He said nothing is Amiss and he walked away and the reason he walked away was to say to me. If I stay here we you're going to have a fight and that will not serve our purpose in this room. We will have to deal with this issue for sure but not right now not right this moment while we're trying to ensure that Iran doesn't obtain a nuclear weapon so it makes sense yes makes perfect sense and you have to be able to walk and Chew Gum and run and skip all at the same time right and and that's what we did as a essentially. He compartmentalized yes he was able to say there's something else that we're working on. Its focus on that and we'll come come back to two that. Did that. Increase your respect for him or was that just it you know Did you feel very very skillful diplomat so it increased is my respect for his skill right okay so let me just come back to sort of getting to know the parties at the table and building up to a point of respect. It didn't always go through very smoothly. MD's apart in your book that you describe where you said something in a Senate hearing I think it was and you said that deception is in the DNA to the Iranians and that made it all the way to Tehran and how that affected and how we when you look back on that what's the lesson there you stop there. Yeah it was quite a moment it was a Senate farm relations committee hearing and I said in response to a question deception is in their DNA and I really was not thinking at the time it resulted in Iranians taking to the streets in Tehran probably encouraged by the government shouting death to Wendy Sherman. A witch did not make my family very happy. did cartoons of me as A. Fox Wchs up in a tree it came to be the moniker among my team. I became team a Silver Fox. As if my silver hair we had t shirts and everything we have of course you can't negotiate for so long and not end up with t shirts right and I realized that what I had done was I had really said something very bad about every Iranian whether they were the regime in Tehran or whether they were in Iranian American and it was really terrible on my part quite frankly and thoughtless thoughtless and so I asked for a voice of America Persian interview and got made sure the interviewer would ask me the question in and I said I greatly regretted the comments that I had made because broad brushing an entire group of people is rarely if ever a wise thing an and how how did that play out to me was that were received was that recognising were you able was well received but quite frankly. I probably Oy rarely do a speech about this where someone does not bring it up. It's still a sensitive subject. it you know you've. You've never waste anything in a negotiation. There were times when the Iranians would say you know how how terrible victims they were. They had such difficult politics because if we really made them do X Y and Z. They were going to be impeached. They were getting up Jay in jail. WHOA is me and I say to them. Excuse me you all went to the streets treats in shouted death to Wendy Sherman so don't tell me that you've have some touch tough challenges so do I so in your book you talk about courage. Orig- you talk about building a finding common ground power and influence building a team persistence. Tell me a little more about those specific civic elements and why you pick them as the areas of focus in your walk in sort of the lessons that you've you've learned of your career think to do hard things in life you have to have all of those elements and I've had the privilege alleged to do some hard but wonderful things in my life help to run the campaign for the first democratic woman ever elected in her own right to the US Senate Barbara mcculskey escape that was a really hard thing to do but one of the most extraordinary nights of my life when she won and I was able to do the Joint Conference of Plan of action the Iran deal which of course now president trump has said was the worst deal ever by did indeed stop Iran from having having a nuclear weapon. We'll get your reaction to that. I want to hear that right so I've I've had been able to do a lot of really really amazing things some historic and I wanted to reflect on what does it take to do that and those elements laments that you described it takes courage and courage usually comes at a price. I've had people say terrible things about me and call me names and I've live. suffered a some from choices. I've made in life but don't regret that I've had those amazing opportunities. I it takes aches a team. None of us do these things on our own. People know in the case of Iran that Barack Obama was very courageous. you know about Secretary John Kerry Secretary Clinton maybe even Secretary of Energy Ernie Monet's maybe even about me but they don't know about the core team of fifteen extraordinary professionals from across our government and literally the hundreds of people in our government that backed up this effort mean hundreds thousands of people in our government it takes persistence which it doesn't mean patients. Sometimes it's good to be impatient but it does take persistence because the Europeans negotiated with Iran for a good deal of time before America ever gotten involved and then I negotiated the entire for years I was undersecretary. These things are hard. It takes and understanding that sometimes James You'RE GONNA lose. Sometimes you're going to fail. and you have to begin again and try again. so there there you have to understand power. who are the people in the room who's got the levers of power you've doom. Brazier own authentic power and and own it and use it for good reasons and good means. Is that a couple of points that I WANNA come back. Do I want to come back to this idea of owning your power win. Win Power sets. I WANNA come back to building team just to explore that a little more. I think I'd love to hear a bit more about how you set. set out to build the team but let's go about two courage because within that is your own sort of background your own stories start off by telling the story of your father's personal courage at almost personal cost cost when he went to try and integrate the housing in Baltimore tennis a little bit about that story sure so my father was in residential real estate date my mother was largely a homemaker and incredibly supportive of helping my father built his business and he went into a Russia Shawna Service Russia Sean is one of the High Holidays in the Jewish faith and the Rabbi Mars Lieberman had just two weeks prior been arrested for trying to integrate and Amusement Park called Gwynn Oak Park just outside of Baltimore. This was a time when there weren't open housing laws or civil rights laws says we know them today and the rabbi thought he owed his congregation and explanation about why he was arrested and he said that he had had been dot com as a chaplain in the liberation of the concentration camp in World War Two and he wondered what ministers and priests had it said to their congregations as Jews were being taken away and he thought that in his time his responsibility was to end the degradation and discrimination of African. Can Americans in Baltimore. My father was incredibly moved by the sermon and went to see the rabbi and said what can I do to help and the rabbi said well. You're more powerful than any minister or a priest a rabbi. You could advertise the houses that you sell to anyone who wanted to buy them and my father said if I do that I will be run out of town. Ha and the Rabbi said will you asked me what you could do. This is what you can do and he and my mother talked about it and he decided to do it and so within a month he advertised advertised all of his houses as long as someone who's willing to sell to anyone who wanted to buy within six months my father had lost sixty percent of all of his listings sixty percent sixty percent by the end of the sixties he had to close his business but he and my mother was quite it was quite a successful business successful business and even though he added other services to what he did he had to close the office and my parents never regretted headed what they did. They believed it was the right thing to do and it was worth the cost and it taught me just a remarkable lesson. My parents took our family on civil rights marches and to try to sit ins in restaurants to try to desegregate public accommodations and I learned a lot by my parents courage that if you WanNa do something that's important you may pay a price for it but it is worth it and when you look back at that time and you you think of it as a family you believe that that was the right thing because it did have an impact on on on the facts and she we had to sell our house and move to a smaller one says it as a as a young child growing up I mean did you understand. What will you understood it? Entirely uh-huh by then I understand more of it my dad took me wants to compensate college which is a historically Black College outside of Baltimore out to hear Lena Horne and it was not to hear Lena Horne Sing. It was for her to talk about what it had been like to be a target of McCarthy during the McCarthy era when she was blacklisted in Hollywood and my recollection of going there was that my father and I were the only white people in the room and I was scared and I had a sense of what it was like to be the other. I don't know if we were the only white people in the room. I that's a memory that sort of seared inside my head. and I think that all of that had an impact on me that part of life must be for justice. I and I've hoped hoped whatever I've done in my life that trying to find more justice for more people has been part of everything I've done you think of any other examples of sort sort of day to day people taking positions or acts you know sort of acts of courage that you want to sort of highlight or service particularly in this time that we're living in the US that was so divided. I think people do courageous things every single day people will oh never know anything about. I wish that the press and the media and here at the Kennedy School we highlighted more of those acts of courage and heroism you know when the students in Parkland organized around our country for better gun safety and went to Chicago to try to raise up the Chicago kids who face gun violence every single day and help them get some press that that they should have gotten that the Parkland kids had gotten and went on to register voters. I think those young people all of those young people from Parkland from Chicago. We're teaching us a lesson about courage. When Greta Thunberg a sixteen year old you know is trying to get young people to you understand the importance of climate change and that action needs to be taken shows those of us who are older that courage does not just come from. I'm someone who fifty years old but it's something that each one of us can do every day. I hope here at the Kennedy school some of the courage that we need to show each other is is to really hear a wide range of us to listen to different points of view to not have contempt for each other to make sure that even if we violently disagree with someone we can hear them. We can try to understand what is behind their point interview but something's a hard to hear yes they are. Yes they are certainly hard for me to hear much of what the Iranian said to me but we never would have come to an agreement had I not really tried to listen and that's not to say that there's moral equivalents to everything there is not there there is right and wrong. There is good and evil. I believe in those things hate is hate and there's nothing any good about it so it's not to say that whatever anybody wants to say about anything should go. That's not the case. We have to have a Samara guardrails so must be hard for you to hear president trump mm say this is the worst deal in history. It is hard for me to hear it but he said during the campaign that's what he believes so I wasn't surprised when he left it and my concern sure it's painful for me personally and for the team that worked so hard on this but the most painful part of it is it has put our country more at risk and it has hurt America's national security. It's there is just as much state sponsorship of terrorism in the Middle East after he pulled out the Iranians are now headed in the wrong direction on the deal he he the president has split us from our allies in Europe in trying to ensure that Iran never have a nuclear weapon so I don't think anything about it has has made us safer and that is my greatest concern and you've you've you've said that there's a difference in the approach the art of the deal as it were through type of approach versus versus what you expansive seen to be successful to just talk about that a little bit sure you know students here at the Kennedy School. We'll take courses in negotiation and they know that often a negotiators thinking terms of win lose or maybe win win but what we really tried to teach here is three dimensional and negotiation that you have to look at the entire landscape and old moving pieces assists and try to reach your objective but understanding that the interests of everybody at the table have to get addressed in some way and I believe that president trump is what I would call a win lose negotiator it's really about beating out the other guy not finding finding an answer to a difficult problem and when the president negotiated for a new high rise to be built if it didn't work workout he couldn't get the zoning if he couldn't make the deal he just go onto another project. when it comes to national security and foreign policy the stakes are much different. It's about life and death. It's about the future prosperity and safety and security of our country. It's quite a different matter but if you're looking to to sort of criticize Chris is the approach of all into thinking about all interests I mean some people might point to the fact that part of the challenge we have when you hear community read communicate being issued after multilateral multi party negotiations is very often. They don't really hit the core of the issue and as you read you can tell that sort of various people drafted this than debated and looked at every word and in the end it. It doesn't doesn't feel very substantive will feel as though you've actually reached a point where there's very specific action that can be taken that is indeed true sometimes but sometimes sometimes progress is incremental and not ultimate when it comes to something like the Joint Comprehensive Plan of action you want to reach an objective which is to insurer on doesn't get a nuclear weapon in Paris climate agreement but it is about trying to take a major step forward which the Paris Paris climate agreement did did it do everything that needs to be done in my view no but was it important step forward in my view. Yes it was and had we all stepped up to those voluntary commitments. perhaps the world would have been able to take the next step and the next step and the next step to get us to where we really need to be so let's go back to sort of some of the elements that you talk about your book and I'm particularly interested in the piece about power I think you've written or said somewhere that you know people what particularly women shouldn't see power as a bad would dirty word and they should feel accustomed and get accustomed to their own power. Let's talk a little bit above that. Yes I've I've said that often women think that powers ICKY power is I like power power and I like power when it's used for good. It's how power is used which makes it good or bad but one of the things that people often ask me is was it more difficult being a woman in these as negotiations and Madeleine Albright my former boss my business partner my dear friend. one said to me you know Wendy. When you go into negotiation. You're less Wendy Sherman or in my case in American Jew or a woman you are the United States of America and that's a pretty powerful thing thing and if you understand that and own it you can do quite a bit and when I was at the table in these negotiations since I was the United States of America. That's pretty remarkable. That is pretty remarkable. Individual level for for women in general we're not sitting at the high stakes negotiating table and they're not America. What would you say what are the instances we've seen women shirk shook away from the from the Apollo or deny it when not grab it for one of the things it happens often when I give a speech is that if it's Toco at audience the first three or four questions are from guys in the audience and I was actually at a meeting with Kennedy School Alumni in London and speaking to the group and this happened and I stopped which I normally do after three and I said Okay Fox. I have a rule if no women raised their hands ends after the first three questions I'm going to stop until one of you smart capable women raise your hand so I got some hands and then I was talking with women afterwards and they gave gave me a really good insight. They said the reason they don't raise their hands as because they think they have to construct the perfect question their head before they raised their hands and I said to them. We'll give that up no guy constructs the perfect sentence in his head before he raises his hand. He raises his hands and he figures by the time he's it's called on. We'll think of something smart to say and if he says it with enough confidence nobody will care so raise your hand and you'll think of something good enough by the time you're called on so oh it's partly a matter of confidence and appreciating that you have something valuable to bring to the table so own it and you'll see us you refer to the the research that was done about women applying for jobs. Yes you know women focus on what was Hewlett Packard did us the HP Hewlett Packard did a study that looked at women applying for jobs and men believe that sixty percent of the qualifications relations they can apply women believed to have one hundred percent and I have said to women you know give that up to if you have sixty percent of the qualifications nations supply and then do what the guys do either make the job the sixty percent forget about the forty or learned on the job. You're smart you're capable but women adjudged differently in times more harsh so you go in knowing that people most instances will expect you to to have a hundred percent or very quickly. Get up to that point there. Is that pieces well absolutely which is why. I think it's important in every job. Women go into to to build yourself a support group so you don't go crazy every place I've ever worked and I'm trying to build one here at the Kennedy School but every place I've ever worked. I've we've created a group of women so that I can test out perceptions. I can validate the choices I make. We can can help each other out. We can assure each other. We're not nuts and it is incredibly important and helps you. Keep your sanity you. Can you tell a story in your book about a moment in the negotiations where you cried yes and for most women you know you go into any situation. You're told the last thing you can do. Show weakness and people see crying as weakness. You see that differently yes so so this was day twenty five of the last round of the negotiations which turned out to be twenty seven days at the Palais Coburg in Vienna. I had exactly one meal meal outside of the hotel. We'd had very little sleep those very intense and we were down to virtually the last element that had to be negotiated in for complicated reasons. I won't go into for the sake of time. This was a negotiation where I was in the room with my deputy. Rob Malley a great diplomat really brilliant man-kai and our counterparts of Bossa Rachi and Majia Robin. She just the four of us and it was the last element we were negotiating that would get us to at the end of this deal and I put a couple of formulas on a scrap of paper on the table and a boss who was the lead in this particular round said okay. I think this one will work and then he leaned forward he said but just one more thing and I was Friday already from lack of sleep I had was supposed to come to Harvard as an I o P fellow institute of Politics Felon Belfer Fellow once the negotiation Gatien. The Congressional Review was done. I knew because we had extended the negotiation. I was going to be late to Harvard at least a monthly and I just lost it. I was furious. I started yelling at Boston saying do you know what you're doing. You're putting this entire yelling. Yes this entire entire deal at risk but somewhere along the line. I learned that women can't get angry but it is okay to cry so as I'm yelling. I am sobbing tears coming down my face. Poor rob had no idea what to do with me. A Boston were dumbfounded. They thought they knew me pretty well. They who this person person was and then after what seemed like a long time but wasn't a Bosnian forward and said okay we're done now. I would never suggest that people adopt crying as a tactic but I was who I was. I was authentically myself south and it was very powerful in that moment and I tell the story to say we are most powerful when we bring all that we are into at the table and I think for me as I read that piece I mean what really stood out in to to to build on what you've just said that you wouldn't advise it as a tactic. I mean this was authentic. Authentic the moment that was it was not being manipulative. It came from the moment absolutely so we we are running out of time. I have two schimmel questions. If you have more time I'm conscious that our listeners are in the US but as well as around the world. Is there any. Is there anything that we need to talk about. That gives a perspective. That's not from the US so I'm sitting here thinking you know we've talked about this from your perspective. Is there if one of your colleagues from Iran or any of the negotiations that you've seen in was sitting here telling the story. Is there anything that they would want to bring in an. It's unfair because but I just want to at least yes I think they would say we have interest to. It's not all about the United States of America I'm trying very hard in the course. I'M GONNA teach to have international examples not just US domestic examples because I think it's critical to understand other people's points if you people have different cultural norms around negotiating and transparency you know we learn during negotiations which of the delegations from which countries had had to have smoke out on the balcony to be able to negotiate who worked well late at night who worked better in the morning but I think more than anything anything it would be other countries saying respect that when we come to a table we come with our own interests and our own history and our own culture and you need to understand that as much as you asked that we understand you can think of a better place to stop. Thank thank you so so much Wendy Ambassador for Spain the time with us. Thank you thank you thanks for listening to policy cost piece join S. for next episode when our guest will be Professor Erica Chenowitz was groundbreaking research on the effectiveness of nonviolent social movements has literally changed the World Wide Light Conversation about how to fight
November 20, 2019: A key Trump ally will testify in public impeachment inquiry hearings
"Good Morning I'm Taylor Wilson and this is five things you need to know Wednesday the twentieth of November two thousand nineteen a reminder. You can tweet us at USA Today. podcast if you have any thoughts about these stories. Andrew Tweeden might be featured on the show on Tuesday we heard about Michelle Obama's new book encouraging journaling. And we asked. If You keep a personal journal things were pretty evenly split blitz three ways thirty percent of you said you do and you'll love it. Thirty six percent said you tried but now you don't have time and thirty four percent said you've never tried for more give us a follow at USA Today. PODCAST now onto the show to get you started three more witnesses or up in the president. Donald trump impeachment inquiry Wednesday. We'll hear from a key trump ally. US Ambassador to the European Union. Gordon sunlit someone has been thought of as someone in trump's camp camp but he also previously testified about demands made Ukraine while military aid was withheld. He could become the most critical witness in trump's impeachment and as the House looks into whether he pressured Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden while withholding military aid to the country. The House Intelligence Committee. We'll also hear from Laura Cooper her a deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russian Ukrainian and Eurasian Affairs. And they'll get testimony from David Hale. The Under Secretary of State for political affairs trump on Tuesday continued to speak out against the inquiry going proceedings a kangaroo court have a kangaroo court headed by little shifty shifty shifty where we don't have lawyers we don't have weaknesses we don't have anything and yet I just got to watch. And the Republicans are absolutely killing league. It they are doing so well because it's it's a scam too big scam doing something that the founders never thought possible and the founders didn't want and Sunday using this impeachment hoax for their own political game board on Tuesday witness. Lieutenant Colonel Alexander. Vitamin supported. Democrats claims that trump pressured Ukraine. He said trump had an improper phone call with the country without hesitation. I knew that I had to report this to the White House. Counsel ahead concerns and it was my duty to report my concerns to the proper proper people in the chain of command and and what was your concern. It was inappropriate. It was improper for the president to requested to demand an investigation into a political opponent opponent. Especially at foreign power where there's a best dubious belief that this would be completely impartial investigation station. All three witnesses Wednesday have previously testified behind closed doors but this will be the first time the public hears from them directly in the impeachment. INCRE- agree hearings are set to begin at nine. Am Eastern time with Sunland testimony. Democratic White House hopefuls are heading back to the debate stage. Ten of the eighteen eighteen candidates will gather on Wednesday in Atlanta for the fifth debate of the twenty twenty presidential campaign. The debate comes amid a continued shuffle of top tier candidates antedates South Bend Indiana Mayor Beauty Judge has seen a surge in early voting. States Iowa and New Hampshire. He's even led former vice president. Joe Biden and Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren in some polls there but beauty judge still trails rivals in a number of crucial states. Among the questions asked Wednesday those onstage stage will surely be expected to comment on the days impeachment proceedings. The debate will be moderated by all women including MSNBC host Rachel Motto NBC. He News correspondent Andrea Mitchell and Kristen Welker and Washington Post reporter Ashley Parker. You can catch the debate at nine PM Eastern time next up. Some seven hundred fifty thousand people in Northern California could be in the dark on Wednesday. The State's largest utilities company Pacific Gas and electric Said said that customers could be affected in twenty five counties in the Sierra foothills and Greater San Francisco Bay area. The outages could last from Wednesday through Thursday in in a controversial move intended to prevent sparking wildfires. Conditions will be dry and windy prime conditions for sparking the blazes but state officials have called on utilities woody's to reduce the frequency and scale of the preventative shut offs. Regulators voted this week to open an investigation into the power outages. Mary Bell Bachelor. The president of the State's Public Utilities Commission said Public Safety Power Shut offs or need to be reevaluated. These sustain appears. PS events cannot be the new normal for California the frequency and scope of the PS events of Twenty nineteen impacted communities and in a profound way. It is imperative that we do more to mitigate wildfire risk and reduce the use of in the future Wednesday more transgender day of remembrance. Say Time to honor transgender victims of violence. It's twenty nine. Thousand nine has been a year of greater acceptance in some ways with transgender issues making it into the platforms of twenty two thousand eight presidential candidates for instance it's but at least twenty two transgender or gender non conforming. People have died by violence. This calendar year for many transgender people getting past suicidal suicide thoughts can be very difficult. Sheer Avery is a non binary. transgender twenty year old. Who told USA Today about how they cope with suicidal idealization Asian I I began experiencing suicidal? Ita Shen on a young child when I think about my child today think immediately without sadness you think immediately about loneliness. My earliest memories are of me. Being harassed I am a fellow. Students appears for for May dress up or not spending too much time with girls all strain rates or walk into a minute or Talking and so you know it. I began to feel repetitive cycle. I would wake up and I would be hostile on home environment and where it was accepted or welcome and I would go to score and laid around head to USA Today. Hey Dot com for a comprehensive look at transgender issues in America in twenty nineteen and last up myles Garrett the Cleveland browns defensive end will appeal his suspension on Wednesday at the NFL's Office Garrett was suspended indefinitely after taking Pittsburgh steelers quarterback Mason Rudolph Helmet off and then hitting him in the head with it. In the final seconds of last week's Thursday night football game Garrett was also previously penalized season for punching the Tennessee Titans Delaney wany walker former. NFL Wide Receiver. James Thrash will hear the appeal and make the ruling. You can catch new episodes of five things Monday through Saturday on apple podcasts. And wherever else you get your audio including the Google home and Amazon Echo you can also subscribe for free and if you'd like drop us a rating and review five things as part of the U._S._A.. Today podcast network.
Jim Miller: Hawkeye
"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the constitution of the United. States against all enemies foreign investor. That I will bear to faith and allegiance to the scene that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the Office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. Help me God so God. Welcome to the youth I'm Chuck Rosenberg and I am honored to be your host for another compelling conversation with a fascinating person from the world of public service my guest this week. Is Jim Miller the former under secretary for policy at the Defense Department in that vital role, essentially the number, three position in Dod Jim was at the forefront of some of the nation's most important and most difficult national security issues, but I'm getting ahead of the story gyms path to the Pentagon began in the middle. He was the only boy in a household of five children in a middle class family in the middle. Middle of the country in Waterloo Iowa, a brilliant student and superb athlete Jim made his way to Stanford or a mentor, real name Lincoln Moses inspired him in guided him into public service. Gyms work at Pentagon included some of the most challenging national security questions that confront our country as a key advisor to three secretaries of defense. Bob Gates Chuck Hagel and Leon Panetta jump guided reviews of nuclear weapons, policy and ballistic missile defense policy and led the formulation of National Defense Strategies for Space and cyberspace recently, and after my interview with Jim was recorded, he resigned his position on the prestigious Defense Science Board. In an open letter to the current Secretary of Defense Jim noted that peaceful protesters exercising their first amendment rights outside of the White. House were disperse quote using tear gas and rubber bullets, not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op end quote. Jim also wrote that though the defense secretary quote may not have been able to stop this appalling use of force, you could have chosen to oppose it instead. You visibly supported it and quote. Jim is a deeply principal and thoughtful man, and his story is engaging and inspiring, a boy from Iowa from the middle, the middle, serving his country at the highest levels of the Pentagon Jim. Miller will come to the oath. Chuck great to be here with you. I appreciate your time today. You grew up in Waterloo. Iowa, the fourth of five children. Tell me about that. CHUCK GROWN UP IN WATERLOO I. I had a pretty idyllic childhood. This is post World War Two America middle of the country middle of the middle class walk two blocks to school as an as a grade schooler. Three blocks to junior high four blocks to high school so I worked my way up. Now you were one of five, but the only boy you have four sisters, three older and one younger. They treat you okay, Jim. Well. I think a couple of them would say I was treated more than okay. Period of time went by the moniker King James with a couple of my sisters. I felt that that was a little overstated. Prince probably would have been more appropriate. You said growing up in Waterloo was idyllic, but there were quite literally two sides of the river, the west side, in which he lived in the east side, which was primarily African American, talk a little bit about the two sides of the river. That's absolutely right. Waterloo was significantly still is a racially divided town African American predominantly on the east side, predominantly white on the west side. He's tied. West high would play football games there at almost always be fights. Now when I was in sixth Grade Waterloo was integrated. That's when the busing program started consistent with when it started nationally as well and there was just a lot of subtle racism, I could see it I went to school with some incredibly talented African Americans. I saw they lived. Some were basketball team. Mates somewhere classmates, two of my classmates African. American classmates went on to play pro football. They in most of the others were tremendous successes. They had a much harder path than I had, and it was evident from sixth grade on at that was the case I was very fortunate and I could see directly in the struggles that they had in the subtle and sometimes unsettled racism that they faced that they had a much harder path I didn't. How did it manifest? Itself Jim suttle pieces would come when there were unreasonable expectations whether on the basketball quarter in the classroom of my African American colleagues. Sometimes those expectations were inappropriately low. Low, in sometimes inappropriately high, and that's the sort of a subtle racism. If you vote that I saw, but treating my black friends and classmates differently than most whites treated, this was not something every teacher dead, but something that a good number of them did as well and sometimes there was more explicit racism when the schools were integrated. When I was in sixth grade, there was a knifing at the squire, ultimately went to West High School, and there were kids who had been brought up as racist, and there's no doubt that that was real. Real it faded over time, and it got pushed into the background. Talk a little bit about your mom and Dad. My mom was a full time. Homemaker is one might imagine with five kids and let me say. My sisters were two three and four years older than I am. My younger sister's four years younger so five kids within roughly ten years, and she's devoted her life to raising us in raising US right, my dad was an insurance agent was a great dad, and he set high expectations for everybody then took no golf from anybody. Anybody Jim you were a very good high school athlete, but you also good college athletes. What's interesting to me? Is that the sport in which you ultimately excelled? Tennis is not something you would expect from an island, perhaps and certainly not something that you would pick up at the age of thirteen as you did well chuck a quick story about that. John was a tennis pro at my parents country club. Who saw me going by the summer to go play golf? He bet me that if he could win a round of eighteen holes. Then I would take tennis lessons from him. If I could win that round, I would get a free soda every day when I came out to play golf. Course it was a total setup. He was a scratch Golfer. He crushed me. Therefore took tennis lessons starting at age thirteen and got pretty good, didn't you Jim I had the opportunity to play first at the local level than state than regionally nationally. Before I went to college I was just good enough not to be recruited by anybody including University of Iowa but good enough to be ranked number two in your state. I got to the finals of the State High School Championships my senior year and lost to a person. person who became a great friend? John Staffer John Played Number one for Duke for most of his time there on scholarship, and he beat me badly from West Waterloo high school you end up at Stanford University a long way from home. How did that happen? Were you good student in high school I was a fairly good student. I think my classmates were probably surprised as I was when I was admitted to Stanford and Chuck My assessment was that I must have been admitted to Stanford because they thought it was. was really funny that someone would try to play tennis in Iowa and so they want to see what that person looked like up-close. Did you like it there a loved? It was completely different, obviously from anything I'd experienced the furthest I had traveled before then was down to Oklahoma to play a tennis tournament. I'd never seen California, had no idea what a beautiful campus Stanford had, and I had no real idea how to study, and so I had a little bit of work to catch up on for my first quarter. Quarter there my first year and to be clear. You weren't recruited to play tennis there and for folks who don't know about Stanford in its legacy in tennis. It is one of the best programs in the nation. Chuck the tennis team. That year was probably the best team in the history of college tennis. In for my freshman year Johnny, mack was coming in as a freshman. He played number one John McEnroe John McEnroe. A guy named Matt Mitchell had won the NC two A. Championships in singles the year before. More and he came back as a junior, and he was fighting to play number two and Peter Rennert who won the national championship in singles two years later was hanging on by his fingernails to play number five or six, so a very tough team. I walked on I. Won The tryouts and coach school told me well done. Jim But we're not taking anybody this year. And so you try that again the next year I tried again the next year. I can be a slow learner, sometimes or stubborn or stubborn. I'm definitely stubborn. There's no doubt about it when the tryouts again the next year and this time co school put me on the team and. And when I got to play with some of the top players, I realized it was possible he had been right the first year that you didn't belong that I was competing above my level. These guys were terrific players. Did you play McEnroe? I never did John was in my freshman dorm. We played intramural sports together coach school high. Think never knew that or would have been quite unhappy, but we played intramural football and soccer and basketball. Your coach didn't want the best tennis player in the United States and by that I mean John McEnroe not Jim Miller to be playing intramural football. That is exactly right, and John didn't really care or if he. John was going to do his own thing, but you made the team I did, and it was a it was a great moment, and a moment where I realized that behind on schedule I had hoped to meet by making the team my first year, starting my second year, and so on that I had a shot, and it really was extraordinary and deeply appreciative. Dakota Gould for making that choice. Was He a mentor to him? He was a mentor and he remains a good friend. Friend. We were doing zoom with a number of our teammates just a couple of nights ago, so we've stayed in close touch, you end up on a Stanford team that wins the national championship I think you want showed me that you have a national championship. Watch Stanford. Men's tennis is one more championships than any other men's tennis team, and than most other schools in any sport. Let me just stipulate that. During my four years of undergraduate won the nationals a couple times and I. I was not a starter for either of those teams, but as a graduate student at Stanford so I get on the team. My Sophomore year I have a shot. My junior year I don't make the starting sex and then. I quit the team my senior year to give spot for someone else to walk on, and so I could focus on my studies. Come back to graduate school at Stanford. The team is doing poorly that year and I happened to be living with the number. Number three player, a good friend, Scott bond run. We go out and hit some balls and he suggests maybe I should try to walk on for the third time, and so on A. Wednesday have challenge match against the number seven player on Thursday. Identify a challenge match against the number six player than I win both of those on Friday I'm suddenly a starter against Ucla and Saturday against USC and I played number, six singles and number three doubles for the rest of that season. Given it up and it was just a dream that dropped into my lap, and that team win a national championship. No, it did not that team had a great second half of the season, but we didn't even make the nationals that year the team had been in social and lost our last match to cal, and that was the end of the season for us. US A, great disappointment, but still terrific experience. You've said that you learn lessons that applied for the rest of your life from Stanford Tennis. What were they chuck on the positive side? It was to keep fighting. Keep trying and to learn how to win with grace when you had that opportunity, but also to lose with grace and that there's always going to be another. Another day on the negative side, a big lesson I learned came in my junior year when I thought. I was going to be one of the top six and I came back from a terrific summer with a lot of good wins, and I decided I needed to focus on developing my weakest shot. My backhand Nice spent that fall working on that back in back. Back in got better and better, and I felt really good about it I felt like I had been very clever, and then, when I got into the challenge matches with some of the better players. My back in was just good enough for me to lose a long rally in my serve and volley game wasn't sharp enough and what I realized afterwards pondering. Why had? Had lost three matches in a row. Two guys I thought I was going to beat. It was a head, not built on my strengths is not reinforced. What I was good at, and that was a lesson that hurt at the time, but that has been incredibly valuable to me in my professional career coach. Gould wasn't you're only mentor? Stanford you had a number of wonderful. Wonderful professors, but one in particular with whom you were very very close. Yes Jessica had tremendous professors and at the top of that list was Lincoln Moses and Lincoln Moses looked the part. If you can visualize Abraham Lincoln and Moses melded together into a white haired, bearded individual with flowing locks that was Lincoln Moses professor of statistics in I happened to be taking A. A course with him in my final quarter at Stanford and his course on quantitative methods, and their application of public policy was an inspiration, and so instead of going to a Wall Street job, which I plan to do I started summer school in statistics, something that most of my friends and family thought was pretty close to insane. Why first of all to Graduate Stanford? Stanford and then start summer school. Instead of starting job seem kind of odd and secondly to do that in statistics, which too many seems like could field of drudgery if you will see particularly unusual and friend and a professor and a mentor to for many years until he passed away in two thousand and seven. That is exactly right. Lincoln was a quaker meeting that. He believed in nonviolence and when I went into national security. He didn't so much as raise an eyebrow or ask a question except what can I do to help? Jim Sounds like you're lucky to have somebody like that at your side at Sanford. Yes, indeed very fortunate could play tennis. He? Thought it was great that I played tennis. There were a couple of times when I missed midterms, because we were on the road and I may have forgotten to tell him about that, but he was kind enough to let me make it back up, and in one case I put all my chips on the final after having missed two midterms while we were traveling around, and and shockingly probably to both of us as the final. Good News. What did you want to do with that I mean? Where did it lead you? You mentioned you had thought about Business School I. Believe you thought about law school, but you didn't do any of those things. You ended up following a public policy path. What is that and why? When I interviewed for JOBS ON WALL STREET IN FOR CONSULTING JOBS? I found them mildly interesting, but not at all inspiring in I was. was struggling with what I wanted to do next after graduating and how it could possibly not just have an interesting job, but have a meaningful job and this course with Lincoln Moses really inspired me and inspired me to want to learn more about the field of quantitative methods, and to look to apply them to public policy into try to make a difference in the world and so Lincoln Moses sort of handed you off to. Have, I oversimplified it. That's exactly right. I was a course or two away from my masters in statistics, and the choice was PhD in statistics or to public policy for the masters, and ultimately the PhD and Lincoln pointed out that HD in statistics was equivalent to a PhD in math, and we agreed that I could probably accomplish that, but it wasn't my forte, so we thought we'd take a chance and focus on the policy side so Lincoln. Lincoln handed me off to one of his best friends. Fred, Ma Stellar at Harvard, who was one of the top statisticians of the twentieth century, and Fred took me under his wing, and you stayed at Harvard for both your masters degree and for your doctorate. That's right. So how did you get roped into career in national security? We'll check as you know because you were literally there. In the nineteen eighty three to eighty five period during the. The Masters? Program it is the height of the Cold War president. Reagan is an office. There is a lot of tension between the United States and the Soviet Union. And I thought as a as a citizen going to a public policy school learn a little bit about it, and it so happened that there were terrific professors Joe Nye Graham, Allison al-karna sale, and many others in I decided to take a couple of courses in that field just. Just as a concerned in I got the bug, and I've been a national security ever since I do remember Jim from our time and graduate school together that I didn't do well in a quantitative methods class. In fact I didn't even get a great on my midterm. It was returned to me by a wonderful professor with three words at the top written in ink in his hand. Please see me which I knew was not a good sign. When I went to see him, he apologized to me because he thought he had let me down because I didn't do adequately in his class. And it was. You have to me for the last six weeks of the semester and got me through. Check I remember that well. It wasn't that I was a great tutor. Miss that you actually were a good student. You got it very quickly once we got down to the details of the issues. We can agree to disagree, but I still think I. I graduated from the program there because you so, thank you I'm undeserving, but I'm grateful for your praise, so you leave Harvard with a PhD and you end up going to work on Capitol Hill. Yes Les Aspen was a representative from Wisconsin. He was chairman of the House Armed Services. Committee he had been one of the Wiz. Kids in the Pentagon has a civilian official working for Robert McNamara went back to Wisconsin was elected and rose to become chairman of the House Armed Services Committee and he. He decided he wanted to bring in a graduate student. A fresh graduate student as a fellow and one of his senior people came down to interview at Harvard and elsewhere, and although I hadn't intended to go that path. It sounded incredibly interesting, so after meeting with Lu fench, who became a good friend went to work for Les. Aspen on the House Armed Services Committee staff. was that the first time he took the oath. It was indeed and it was memorable. Why so? It's one thousand nine hundred. Hundred Eighty eight the cold war is still in a sense raging, but we're already seen signs that the Soviet Union has a chance to either reform or to fall apart. The stakes are incredibly high and to come into government service at that point in time with huge debates on missile, defense and new ICBM's what US policy toward the Soviet. Union should be was just an incredible experience and to work with not just Aspen, but other committee members and great senators like Sam Nunn was just an. Experience did they work in a bipartisan fashion? For the most part it was bipartisan, but you have to understand that there were strong views on the far left in on the right in the middle could be treacherous. Les Aspen actually lost his chairmanship because of votes on Amex missile and the contras at one point in time, and is that why you left the hill? No, no, after four years on the hill at had just most amazing. Amazing experiences in greatest learning opportunities one can imagine had the greatest respect for my colleagues on both Democratic and Republican side of the aisle, but it was time to move on. We had a one and a half year old, our oldest daughter Allison, who had been quite sick and gave a bit of a scare. We thought thought she might be taken and just decided. We needed to rebalance our lives. And how did you do that well? Sorry I'm just thinking. I'm thinking about allison getting a little bit emotional. But she's fine now. She's fine, she's. Was Scary I remember that it was scary. She was hospitalized and I remember driving home from the hospital thinking she is probably going to be disfigured in the night. Just kick myself because I thought come on jump that disfigured. Can deal with. That skit might not be alive tomorrow morning. So Adele and I decided we needed to, and wanted to have a reset and I had the great opportunity to go down to duke to teach. It was a one year visiting appointment. I- overstayed by four years had a great five years at Duke University. Terry Sanford School of Public Policy, but you are eventually drawn back into government into federal service this time in the executive branch at the Department of Defense. It was February nineteen. Ninety seven and Adele, and I are having dinner in our home in Durham and the phone rings about nine PM. It's Ted Warner a friend who was an assistant secretary at the Pentagon, with whom I stayed in touch, any says Jim, likely to come take a job as deputy assistant secretary likely to start soon and Unitel talk about and get back to me tomorrow. Tempting it was extraordinary because I had had an offer for the same level position for years previously from Les. Aspen, and from Deputy Secretary, Bill, Perry, who was also a mentor? Of Mine back at Stanford, and it turned that down in order to go have family time and Don talked it over and decided this was an opportunity that we should take, and so we moved back up to Washington, so when you came back into federal service this time in the executive branch at the Department of Defense. What were you doing? What was your job being a deputy assistant secretary within the policy part of the office of the Secretary of. Of Defense is one of the best jobs in government in my job was to lead the review of war plans and supported than under secretary and Secretary of Defense and to develop defense, Planning, guidance and review the services programs in budgets to give a sense of. Are we going the right direction? We would develop scenarios and test, defense, program and budget against those scenarios. In at that time, the big was two major theater. Wars explain that two major theater. Theater wars. What are you trying to determine as a planner? Right? So this is in the post Cold War world. Rush is not seen as a threat. This is well over twenty years ago and China has not yet risen anywhere near to the point it has today in the focus of the Department of Defense was the ability to actively fight another desert storm conflict in the Middle East and at the same time, if necessary fight conflict in Asia so. So think in terms of Iran and North Korea as two key scenarios, and we wanted to deter those conflicts. It was a time s today where North Korea was dangerous led by someone who was an aggressive leader, and where Iran had been in turmoil, and there's a real sense that there's a possibility of conflict so those two major theater wars, you need to fight one in the Middle East one in the Pacific and be able to both same time. Hi Everyone. It's joy, Reid host of am joy on MSNBC. Did you know you can listen to am joy, and all your favorite MSNBC shows as podcasts. You can catch up on the beat with Ari Melber the Rachel Maddow show the eleventh hour with Brian Williams and more anytime on the go search for your favorite MSNBC shows wherever you're listening to this podcast and subscribe for free. Thanks for listening. Hey It's Chris as this week. And My podcast wise is happening. I'll be talking with philosopher and former police chief Brennan del. Pozzo about police accountability and reform when you physically struggle with someone, even if you can overcome them, and they don't hurt you and you win that fight so to speak, you have Adrenalin and chemicals in you that make you unsympathetic to the person you're dealing with is a human being and puts you in a different place than the bystander, an policing his ignored that an. An policing hasn't taken seriously the fact that it has to build in safeguards to stop those emotions from being what leads to the decisions. I think the army does a better job. The army knows its soldiers in combat like are filled with crazy uncontrollable emotions, and they build in discipline and checks as much as possible to stop it from leading to war crimes. Policing has yet to take that seriously. That's this week. Unwise happening search for wise is happening wherever you're listening right now and subscribe. The planning shop at the Department of Defense is huge. So is the Department of Defense of course you talk a little bit about the sort of the scope and size of dod and of your planning shop while the Department of Defense is you know as a whole has several million active duty and reserve officers plus civilians. It's enormous, the Pentagon itself is essentially a small city. Now my staff had only a handful of people working on were plan review, but that combatant commanders what we used to call the sinks, commanders in Chief, had large staffs that would develop more plans under the broad direction provided by the president and the Secretary of Defense. Defense Team's job was to review those plans, not just for whether they met the specific guidance, but whether they made sense, and whether there were appropriate decision points in them for the Secretary of Defense and the president to manage the conflict, and to be prepared to give direction at key points. Did you like the work? It was incredible work, and it was the first time that I've been not just part of a team, but led a team, and this was a team of incredibly talented civilian and military officials, including military officers who went on to be admirals and generals and including civilians who went on to be deputy assistant secretaries of defense. Defense I. At that time it was group with extraordinary talent, and it was a tremendous time to be working on these national security issues. One of your mentors. One of your friends who I think you met at that time was a woman named Michele Flournoy Michelle was a fellow deputy assistant secretary, and we had overlapping portfolios. We became close colleagues and close friends almost immediately, and to give you a sense of Michelle's perspective and approach. At one point in time my office was tasked to do something that could have gone either office to develop a roadmap for what was called transformation, preparing the military for new challenges, and without even my making requests. Requests, she offered to send three ever top people to my office to work on it indefinitely, nothing about turf nothing about asking for favor and return. She just did it, and she remained a friend and mentor for years. In fact to this day. Yes, Indeed Michelle would later become principal deputy assistant secretary in the Clinton administration, and so was my direct boss, and she was terrific in that role, and she was my boss when I would come back into the Pentagon later as well you came back to the Pentagon in two thousand and nine, you had been there until two thousand spent eight or nine years out of government and in two. Two, thousand nine, when Barack Obama becomes president. You return to Federal Service. Yes, Michelle and I had a great plan and we'd worked it out with our mutual friend Kurt Campbell. Kurt was the CEO for the Center for new American Security Michelle was the President I was the director of Studies Michelle and Kurt. We're going to go in to government and I was going to stay out. No plan survives first contact as they say. And when Michelle's choice for principal deputy undersecretary fell through, she asked if I would come in and serve at least for a period of time as her deputy. And how did you feel about going back to government for? For Third Time, I felt incredibly honored for the opportunity. I felt daunted by the challenges that we would face including overseeing major reviews on the defense program on nuclear weapons on missile defense on space in Cyber, but I felt incredibly confident going into work for someone who might trust. It had the highest regard for Michelle Flournoy and similarly someone whom I had met with an had tremendous regard for Secretary Bob Gates so Michelle is now the Under Secretary of Defense for policy a job that you will later inherit from her and one of the biggest and most important jobs in the Department of Defense. What is that portfolio Jim the under secretary? Secretary for policy has been sometimes called the State Department within the Defense Department, and that's a key part of the job. It has a number of regional offices, indeed a deputy assistant secretary responsible for each region of the world, but it also has a number of functional offices on nuclear weapons and missile defense on cyber and space, and so forth, and so both the regional and functional portfolios go there to be the lead for the Department in Writing Guidance and oversight, and then the high level strategy from national security. Strategy to national defense strategy, and so forth so from high level, strategy down to implementation including the war plants in the services. Services programs the responsibility for all of that activity was in policy so Michelle is your direct. BOSTON, when you return, Bob Gates as Secretary of Defense. Say a few words about him. Bob Gates was in is an extraordinary analysts in extraordinary leader and just an extraordinary person, I recall when I went into interview with him for the position of principal deputy undersecretary, he immediately went into a very strategic conversation about where the country was where the department was would be. He anticipated even at that time in two thousand nine that we would hit budgetary problems that what he called the river of money running underneath the Pentagon was going to dry up. And noted that wanted to take steps to prepare the people and the institution for that type of challenge. You said it was a great leader. Describe that for us, Chuck, let me try to describe his leadership style with two different levels of analysis. If you will on the First Secretary Gates had an agenda. He knew what his priorities were whether it was to bring in more capability to fight the connor insurgencies that were underway with you a vs and. And with so-called m wraps the vehicles that would protect our troops better and a second aspect of film. That tells a lot. He knew that nobody went home in the Pentagon. Until he left, he made a point to go back to his apartment virtually every day at a reasonable hour by six o'clock because he knew that everyone else would stay till he was gone, and then he worked through the evening at home. You also worked under Leon Panetta. It would be hard to find two people who seem more different on the surface than Bob. Gates Leon Panetta. Leon Panetta would give you a bear hug. Bob Gates would give you a nice firm handshake. Leon Panetta, would curse like a sailor Bob Gates was literally Top Eagle. Scout very different on the surface, exactly the same person underneath committed to doing the right thing for the country and great leaders, both of them have the highest regard for both of them and Leon. Panetta has already been a guest on the oath. He was our inaugural guest for season three, and he has in fact just an. An, absolutely lovely man, warm and kind and funny. He was very fond of you to when DPK Secretary of defense, you ascended to the position of Under Secretary for policy. Michele Flournoy had left. You inherited her job, and you were his under secretary for policy, right? That's right. Michelle had given me a heads up that secretary. Panetta was likely to ask the question in one day Jeremy Bash whom I think you chuck Jeremy Bash walks down to my office. And tells me secretary. Panetta would like to speak with you. He's going to ask you a question. The answer is yes. And, so we walked down to Secretary Panetta's office, he asked the question and I said yes, and I got one of those great bear. Hugs and it was just a great moment in Leon Panetta's book worthy fights. He writes about you and Michelle reading from his book. Flournoy and her deputy Jim Miller who would later succeed Michelle is Under Secretary for policy were two of the most critical advisors I had during my time as secretary now I don't know if he means by critical that you criticize them a lot that you were vital both Michelle and I would tell Secretary Panetta secretary gates, and any others exactly what we thought. But I hope that he meant it in the ladder. Sense Jack. He meant you vital. He told that to me when I had the privilege of interviewing him that you're not only one of his favourite people that he had ever worked with, but also one of the smartest and. I don't think he was making that up. Jim, well. It's mutual when you're under secretary of defense for policy. What is it that you do on a day to day basis at the Pentagon and on behalf of the Department of Defense about ten to fourteen days a month you're on the road benefit and a curse of the Under Secretary for policy is there is a plane committed to you? So you can travel overseas. Meet with counterparts, meet with the defense, ministers or deputy defense ministers for larger countries and to work on that international agenda The blessing of having your own plane available is obvious the curse was that meant that you would work the entire time on the flights in and you could. Could do classified as well as unclassified work, so that was ten to fourteen days a month, a lot of time in the situation room, and then a lot of time working within the Department of Defense, as well working with the combatant commanders with the service, chiefs and secretaries, and with others to try to implement the presidents and Secretaries Vision, and to protect national security, and say a few words about how policy is made at the very highest levels of the executive branch. Our listeners are very smart, but may not be familiar with that process. Every administration develops policy through a slightly different process, but all of them use the basic structure that was created. The National Security Act of nineteen forty seven. And that involves a National Security Council chaired by the President Beneath it. A Principals Committee chaired by the National Security Adviser, and then a deputies committee, which typically meets on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times a day to hash out policy, and below that a number of working groups with Assistant Secretary or deputy. Assistant Secretary Level folks, and the formal process sounds like it's very vertical top down and curve direction is given, and then results come back up the chain for approval. The reality is it's much more fluid than that and oftentimes people who are relatively junior and. Can make a big difference by having good ideas, but it sounds like a cumbersome process is able to move quickly if needed, the process is built to be cumbersome, but to allow thoughtful analysis to enter into big policy decisions. It can move fast. I saw it move fast for multiple military operations including going after Terrace, where there'd be a brief window open, and we need presidential approval, and it went fast in many other instances as well it can move fast, but it means basically starting at the deputies level or higher, and then getting the rest of the organizations in line, so between multiple meetings a day when you're in the Pentagon and ten to fourteen days a month on the road in the air, traveling from country to country to meet with your counterparts sounds. Sounds like a an exhausting job. Chuck I like to see that two years undersecretary secretary with where the best years of my life do miss it, I, miss the people, the most extraordinary people within my organization within policy, within the Department of Defense, and among the US government is well, might partners in the situation room I miss the people, the most working on issues of national importance. Every day is an incredible opportunity and I'm I'm grateful for that opportunity. What is it like to be in the situation room? What is it like to? To brief a president of the United States, the first time in the situation room is incredibly intimidating and for the deputies meeting. The deputy NASCAR visor would be the head of the table. I would be next to him with the deputy secretary state across the table, and then half a dozen or more others, deputies of other departments along the table, and these people are folks who are smart, professional, deeply accomplished people like Deputy Secretary Bill. Burns, like deputy security advisor, Dennis McDonough Admiral Sandy Winfield Avril Haines, these are people whom I knew and I. I knew were fantastic people, but also smart as a whip and capable of getting things done intimidating at the first moment, someone intimidating and knowing that my job was to not just do what Jim Miller wanted to do, and not only do what was right for the department, but also make sure that I carried the interest of the Secretary of Defense and his perspective whether it was secretary Gates Panetta earlier Hegel into that meeting, and that we were of one mind so that when high said yes, in the situation room is a deputy. And I went back and told the Secretary of defense. The response would be okay. That sounds right Miller not okay. Get a new job. Miller You also have the opportunity to brief the president of the United States several times. What does that like that first time? That I had the opportunity to brief president? Obama was in the Oval Office and we are near the end game of the Nuclear Posture Review. What is the Nuclear Posture Review so each administration as it comes, and does a number of major reviews of policy from overall defense posture for the Department of Defense to nuclear posture meaning. How many nuclear weapons do we need? How do we deploy them? How do we talk about them? To assure our allies in deter our potential adversaries, and this review was dealing with this full range of issues now President Obama had given a speech. Speech in Prague in two thousand nine, and would receive the Nobel Peace Prize in large measure for his efforts on nuclear non-proliferation and his commitment to seeking a world free of nuclear weapons over time, and so this review was really President Obama's review, and I was the for for the Department of Defense I had opportunity to brief him in the Oval Office and to attempt to come to closure on the final three issues had to be resolved for us to complete the review. And what were those issues Jack in I can tell you two of them I. Guess I could tell you the third, but then I'd have to kill you as the expression goes so in that case the first. The first one was the weighty one question of what should our declaratory policy be and specifically should the president of the United States say that under no conditions. He or she would ever use nuclear weapons first, so it's called a no first use policy, and we were considering whether that should be the United States policy and not only United States policy, but publicly declared as United States. States policy indeed publicly declared and with repercussions for both how our potential adversaries and how allies few the United States commitment second topic was how to deal with China. It's only ten years ago, but at that time China was just emerging as a great power. It had a few hundred nuclear weapons compared to many thousands in Russia and so, how does one treat China in the? The review and so those two issues and a third won't talk about. We're on the table. President Obama very quietly asked the most thoughtful questions one could imagine. In fact, he asked several questions that I hadn't imagined. And it was a moment where I think exuded the utmost calm confidence, and there was a part of me. That wanted to follow the path of the cowardly lion. Lion in the wizard of Oz. If you remember that, run down the hallway and try to jump out of a window now. That wouldn't work very well. At the White House right I probably would have been shot on the way out, but if I had I made it to a window, I, would have just bounced off. Their are bulletproof meaning, also miller proof. There's no escape. It was extraordinary and I did have the thought as we talking that this is just like my oral review for my dissertation only way harder, and it's much less clear that I'm going to pass. Now I had the privilege of briefing President Obama once and I was struck by the fact that he is a remarkably good listener that he doesn't interject. He doesn't talk over other people. He's quiet. The absorbs information which takes a great dose of both humility and confidence I can remember multiple occasions in the situation room where President Obama would kick off the National Security Council meeting and would go through. Through the agenda, burn it over to others for conversation typically to the national security adviser whether it was Tom Donilon later Susan Rice in my time, and then just listen and occasionally ask a question an hour and a half would pass sometimes two hours and then president Obama say okay. I've heard the issues. Here's how I. Propose we proceed. Tell me what you think, and then he would go through. Typically four to eight key points about what US strategy and policy should be often raising not just perspective, but options that hadn't been thought of before, and it was just extraordinary. He did so without notes, and he did, so as you said he did so by listening quietly, and by thinking deeply about the issues, and always in my experience asking what's the right thing for the country smartest guy in the room? Room by far the smartest guy in the room, but he didn't rub your nose in it. He was friendly. Do it was necessary to put you at ease I think is matter was probably why? I didn't run out of the Oval Office the first time I had that Opportunity Jim one of the issues you had a confront as under secretary of Defense was a twenty twelve sequestration and furlough of your employees. What does sequestration and why did it require such dramatic sort of personnel reductions sequestration was a byproduct of the so-called budget. Control Act and the Budget Control Act came about because the Obama, administration and Congress could not agree on appropriate levels of defense, spending and domestic spending. And as part of the budget contract, said well, if we don't make a deal within the next year than both domestic spending and defense spending, they're going to get cut and secretary. Panetta called a crazy meat ax. Approach I think that that was accurate, and if anything generous. So what happened when sequestration hit. Is that suddenly the funds that were being used to pay for operating expenses for the military to pay for both civilian and military personnel were slashed. And we were required to furlough a substantial fraction of the civilian. Workforce of the Department of Defense for a period of weeks turned out, but when we did it, we didn't know how long it would last and it was. It was a very tough time has to be deeply unsettling for those employees. We had young parents who had just saved up to buy a house, and who didn't have enough money. To make it for more than a few weeks of course their their colleagues. All of us did what we could to assist in those types of situations. We had extraordinary personal challenge that people had to overcome. But the only complaint I ever heard was pleased Dr Miller. Why can't we come in and work? I understand that we're not going to be paid. Why can't we come in and work? What about that Policy Initiative? What about that meeting for the secretary? What about everything? We've done to build relationships with these countries. Are. We really going to put those on hold. Just let us come in and work, and and sadly I was unable to do that because the law required that when people were furloughed. They couldn't even use their blackberry. If you remember what blackberries are? They couldn't communicate with work. They were off of work until further notice. It's got a rankle you to hear the way. The federal workforce is sometimes described given what you saw at the Pentagon and the commitment, these men and women to their country into their work. Chuck from my first job on Capitol, Hill House Armed Services Committee both tours in the Pentagon throughout my time in government. I've I've worked with people who were committed to doing the right thing for the country. Who Were Patriots. And both military and civilian personnel who are willing to literally put their lives on the line for their country. And they deserve not just to be paid. They deserve respect in our everlasting gratitude I think folks should know who are listening to this podcast that those men and women are still serving in the Department of Defense and the State Department and the Justice Department and the intelligence community throughout government people are continuing to serve, and they continue to be worthy and deserving of our strong support. Jim, during your tenure as undersecretary I wanna take you to a particular day September Eleventh, twenty twelve eleven years to the day. After the attacks of nine eleven. Where are you what happened? We'd had a moving nine eleven ceremony that morning. That afternoon I'm in Secretary Panetta's office. I'm meeting with Secretary Panetta with Chairman of the joint. Chiefs of Staff Marty Dempsey with us. AFRICOM commander Carter Ham. General Carter. Ham In my deputy assistant secretary for Africa Amanda Dory. There's a big map of Africa out on the table and we're talking about US policy towards Africa and specifically. Dealing with the terrorist threat in Africa that's where we are that afternoon of nine eleven, two thousand twelve secretary, Panetta and Marty Dempsey have a meeting with the president in about an hour, and as we're sitting around the table, Talking John Kelly Lieutenant General John Kelly, who was secretary Panetta senior military aide, who would later be dhs, secretary and Chief of staff to President Trump John Kelly Burston the room. Who says there's something going on in Libya, there's something going on at the Benghazi Consulate. We don't have the details yet, but we expect more to come in and the next couple of minutes, and so when we first got news have been Ghazi. You literally had in the Department of Defense exactly the people around the table. That you'd want to deal with the issue. The secretary, the chairman, the AFRICOM commander, the most expert person on Africa the civilian side, my deputy secretary. And myself as the Under Secretary for policy and a big map of Africa laid out on the table, and what happens next so within moments we have Carter Ham General Hams deputy on the phone, and he's explaining the situation in Benghazi, which is uncertain and evolving rapidly, but it's clear that there are violent protests, and it's clear that their significant danger to people at the consulate, so as we gather additional information real time, both from a Carter Hams team and from the intelligence community, which is coming in to brief in the secretary's office. We discussed the possible military options in there weren't good military options for conducting strikes at that point in time. We walked through all the possibilities and secretary Panetta and Chairman Dempsey. Get in a car to go over to see the president a few minutes later with the most recent possible information in with the president, having been apprised of the situation as well within about an. Of US, first hearing about it, the president had ordered a repositioning of US forces to be prepared to take action and to defend American interests and lives in the region and tragically four Americans were killed in Benghazi that. It was indeed a tragedy ambassador Chris, Stevens and three others were killed, and they went down with the hard fight. It was very tough time for American interests in for American diplomacy and for Americans everywhere. What's your takeaway from Benghazi? And what happened that day? One of the implications of Benghazi was a laser like focus from the National Security Council on the posture of US embassies and consulates in dangerous regions across the world, and that's something that the State Department pays close attention to and that the military also watches closely, but we did a very deep. Deep Scrub on that for the coming days and weeks and change the position, not just because of Benghazi, but because of the reality that we knew others might want to imitate that type of attack in, so we really looked to button up. tightened security at embassies and consulates at least eighteen locations around the world, and the truth is that men and women both in the military and in the civilian workforce the Pentagon and the State Department that the Justice Department and the intelligence community servant very difficult and dangerous places around the world. They do indeed. They do indeed every day, not just nine eleven twenty twelve, but every day of every year we have people across the world. Some in the military summoned the State Department many other departments and agencies who are literally putting their lives on the line to make America safer and to advance our interests, and by hats off to all those people, my deepest gratitude to them. Leon. Panetta told me when I spoke with him that the hardest thing he ever had to do. A Secretary of defense is signed deployment orders, putting men and women in harm's way and coupled with that the personal letters he wrote to the family of a fallen soldier. That was the hardest thing he had to do. You must have seen the toll. It took on him I did I was in? Virtually all of those deployment orders meetings, and they were Sambre Fares. Secretary Panetta would ask hard questions of both. Why do we need to have a deployment there and on the other hand? Is it sufficient to provide adequate self defense for the people who are on the ground and putting their lives on the line and I happen to come in to see him a number of times when he is writing those letters. And it is. It is a part brandon. Even think about it I? Know you were very fond of Leon. Panetta and you happen to be with him on his last day as Secretary of defense. Can you talk about that sure? So? Secretary Panetta had stayed on a bit longer than he originally planned as it took longer for Secretary Hagel to be confirmed than expected, so it's finally secretary Panetta's last day. It's about an hour before he's going to walk out of the Pentagon for the last time, the Secretary of Defense and he decides he wants to take a walk around the grounds, and of course he wanted with him his companion, Bravo his wonderful golden retriever, so secretary Panetta and I. Walked with Bravo around the Pentagon grounds talked about life talked about the issues of the day. Bravo took care of some business while we were out there. And came back in and secretary. Panetta walked out of the Pentagon. There is a line of people it had to be several thousand the quarter of the earring, which is the outside ring of the Pentagon where his offices going down to the front interests, the river entrance they cheered him on, and he had a hero's departure, as well deserved for his time as secretary defense, and also for his many years of extraordinary public service. It was an amazing moment, and if you were to be in the earring of the Pentagon where the official portraits of the secretaries of Defense Hang What would you see in? In Secretary Panetta's portrait, you would see secretary Panetta's best friend. Man's best friend Bravo with them perhaps goes without saying that it's the only portrait hanging in the halls of the secretary of defense with his dog and I imagine it's the only such portrait of a senior official anywhere with his dog. Bravo was terrific. Dog was a calming influence for assault. When we are in intense times, Bravo was a sweet friend to a tough, compassionate and brilliant leader. Leon Panetta sounds like you've had a lot of wonderful mentors in your life Jim. Lincoln noses Michele Flournoy Leon Panetta your mom and Dad yes, indeed very fortunate. Fortunate and I've had a lot of luck, but much of that luck occurred because I had people who were not just watching my back, but giving me hints about how to do better and how to do well and how to do good in the world when you talk to young men and women today, people who are interested perhaps in a career and national security. What are they ask you? And what are you tell them? Check some of the young people with whom I meet at least for the first time. When we meet, we'll say how do you succeed? How did you get that job? How did? Did you become undersecretary in what they're really asking is. How do I become a senior official? Then how do I climb that ladder? How do I have a successful career? And what? I tell them you're asking the wrong question. The question you ought to ask is where can you do good work in you make a difference if you're not currently in a position where you can make a difference in the world, where might that be? Where would you have the greatest passion? What's the job that will get you up early in the morning every day and cause you to go in and make a difference? Go with your passion. Go with where you think you can make a difference and focus on doing a great job and the job you're in being the president and don't worry too much about the future. Exactly right exactly right when I was an assistant US attorney I used to love Sunday nights, and when I was us, attorney I would describe it as the Sunday night test that always tell folks find a job that passes the Sunday night test meaning that Sunday night is the best night of the week because. Because on Monday morning. You get to go back to work and I know. That sounds a bit corny and I know. A lot of people have jobs that they don't like. Let alone love, but if you find something where you can pass the Sunday night test and I think you're truly blessed. Check I've had that great opportunity that great blessing, multiple times in my career I know exactly what you mean that desire to get back in and make a difference and help your team. Make a difference is something that is. Possibly not unique to public service, but just the centerpiece of public service say a few words about the men and women who work for you when you are under secretary of Defense for Policy Michelle and I had the great good fortune, both to inherit eight tremendously talented policy team, and to be able to bring in about fifty additional people as political appointees from relatively young people to quite seasoned senior diplomats like Sandy. Averse Ball, who had been our ambassador to NATO and our Bassett or to Russia the team that we. We had opportunity to work with was absolutely top notch and every day I think about members of that team who made huge contributions to not just the Defense Department, but to our nation there were two people who helped me through. Confirmation Natalie Quilliam than Natalie Holly and colonel. Ross Brown army colonel. Their job was to get me prepared for confirmation and to get me through this essentially through the Senate after they did that, they became my special assistance and their commitment to public service their ability to give insight as to. What was more likely to work and not work? And their complete focus on doing the right thing and building a strong team was apparent literally from before the first day I stepped into the job as principal deputy, and was apparent in them in so many other people with whom I worked in policy ended department in throughout the government. You know I found that in so many of my colleagues, the Justice Department not everyone. There were a few people who didn't pull their weight, but overwhelmingly the men and women were drawn to that work. Work for the mission and gave more themselves than one could ever imagine I couldn't agree more. There were literally a handful of people who were either checking a box or trying to climb the career ladder. They stood out exceptions to the rule, and their peers knew they were and just worked around them as necessary. Other folks still got the job done. Your said that being Under Secretary of Defense for policy is the best job in government. Is that something you'd like to do again? It's a great question. For someone focused on the defense side of National Security Policy Wonk I think Under Secretary of Defense for policy is as you said literally the best job in government, my focus now is trying to help. Other people succeed in government, and at the same time, if I felt that their unique contribution that I could make I'd be honored to serve again. I know that I couldn't say no. You said that you still want to contribute. In fact, you have as a thinker as an author for instance over the last couple of years you have authored a number of reports regarding relations between the United States and Russia, and whether the nuclear stability that existed between. Our country and Russia was at risk, is it? The United States in Russia are both developing advanced non nuclear weapons, long range strike missile defense systems cyber, capabilities outer space encounter space capabilities and are beginning to embed them with artificial intelligence, and this is creating new dynamics that could play out in the event of a crisis between the United. States and Russia and similarly could play out in the event of crisis between the United States and China the US military needs to develop the this wide range of new capabilities, but just as we made adjustments during the Cold War. We need to think through how to bring these capabilities into the force in ways. Ways, that will promote strategic stability, and that means in a crisis neither side has any incentives to go first. You also authored reports questioning whether the US and Russia could avoid war, and whether the doctrine of mutually assured destruction had eroded to the point where a strike nuclear option by either side became more viable. What is mutually assured destruction and has a first strike nuclear option become more viable mutually assured. Destruction is a situation, not really doctrine. It's a situation that we're in because both the United States and Russia previously United States and Soviet Union have the capability to totally destroy the other side's. Military Economy and indeed society through nuclear strikes, even if they go second, so that's the situation that we've been stuck in since the Soviet Union achieve nuclear parody in the nineteen sixties, that situation has been accepted by both sides and is the basis for strategic stability. Both sides know that if they attempt to big for strike, the other side can respond with overwhelming nuclear force now. Now has that situation eroded in my view? Strategic Stability is very strong today. Both sides have overwhelming second strike capabilities, and the question is really what may happen over the next ten to twenty or more years as new capabilities come into force, the Russians have deployed several new systems that really are of concern, including one called status, six or poseidon, which is a nuclear powered. Torpedo of Intercontinental Range, which has a multi megaton in other words, giant warhead intended to be able to destroy cities on the west coast of the United. States President Putin has talked about this system publicly. It's that kind of system that creates worries in my mind about what the Russians are thinking. And how do we address that? As a nation, three things chuck I. We need to keep diplomatic relations with Russia, even as we have these periods of intense friction, and even with sanctions on them, and we need to continue military to military contacts. So that channels of communication are open second, we need to ensure that we continue to invest in new capabilities including capabilities that are share our second strike that includes nuclear command and control as well as the strike systems. And third, we need to continue in my view to push on arms control where the new start treaty allows, the US allows rush also to conduct inspections so that each side has confidence in the capabilities that the other side has deployed and has confidence enough to reduce the risk of misunderstanding misperceptions that could lead to stumble into war and explain what the start treaty is pleased Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty the new start treaty between the United States and Russia and limits. Each side's so called strategic nuclear arms, intercontinental ballistic missiles or ICBM's it. Sea launched ballistic missiles or submarine-launched ballistic missiles or s albums, and it's heavy bombers and there's A. A limit on overall numbers of deployed delivery systems ICBM's slam's embalmers, and there's a limit on the warheads associated with those systems most importantly, the new start treaty has data, exchange and verification provisions so that each side can have a better understanding about what the other side is doing and really reduce that risk of misperception that could be dangerous in a crisis. One of our guests on the oath was gyms to Rita's. Who I know you know he the supreme, allied, commander of NATO and the only Navy Admiral, his case, four star Admiral to serve in that role. Historically, it had been a role filled by four star army generals. Is NATO still relevant is it still important? Does it still matter to us? NATO is still a vital importance of the United States. Part of it is to ensure that Russia knows that any aggression against NATO countries will be met by allied response. An additional big part is that NATO has been a force of stability more broadly. Region, but across the globe. When we were hit on nine eleven as of nine, twelve, two, thousand one, it was a NATO operation made us conducting peacekeeping operations, and really worked to provide stability in southern Europe and in other regions as well Jim is such a pleasure to have you on the oath. I've admired you for a long time I have respected what you've done and so privileged to have been your friend for nearly four decades chuck, it is entirely mutual, and I'm grateful for our friendship I'm grateful for your contributions to national security, and I'm very very pleased to be just a small part of this terrific podcast series that you're putting on, thank you, Jim, thank you check? Thanks to Jamila for being my guest on the oath. Jim was the former under secretary for policy at the defense. Department, in that role, Jim was at the forefront of some of the nation's most important and most difficult national security issues serving as a key advisor to three secretaries of Defense Jim is a deeply principled in thoughtful man in a story is engaging and inspiring. And know his story may have begun in the middle. Boy from a middle class family in the middle of the country, he ended up serving our nation at the highest levels of the Pentagon. I mentioned introduction to this episode. The Gym recently resigned from the defense. Science Board as a matter of principle. There is a link Jim's resignation letter in our show news. If you like this episode, please let us know by leaving us. A five star rating on whatever APP you used to listen and ask your friends to subscribe to. We are available in Apple podcasts. spotify tune in every major listening at as well as MSNBC DOT com slash. If you're listening on a smartphone, tap or swipe over the cover art or the podcast. You'll find the episode notes including some details. He might have missed. If you have any thoughtful criticism, feedback questions about this episode or others. Please email us at the podcast, gmail.com, that's all one word the youth podcast. Dot Com. And they'll I cannot personally responded every email. Please know that I. Read each one of them and I truly appreciate it. The oath is a production of NBC. News and mess. NBC This podcast was produced by Vanco and the amazing team Fanny Cohen Nick Bannon and Rob Abor. I am lucky to work with him. Livia cruiser provided excellent production support as always. Our senior producer is Alison Bailey and Steve Tie is our executive producer. This is the oath with truck Rosenberg. Thank you so very much for this. Hi Everyone, it's joy, Reid host of am joy on MSNBC. Did you know you can listen to am joy, and all your favorite MSNBC shows as podcasts? You can catch up on the beat with Ari. Melber, the Rachel Maddow show the eleventh hour with Brian Williams and more anytime on the go search for your favorite MSNBC shows wherever you're listening to this podcast and subscribe for free. Thanks for listening.
Trump Bypasses Congress by Appointing Controversial Pentagon Nominee
"No approval no problem trump bypasses congress by appointing controversial Pentagon nominee by WJ Hannigan. Since the first year of his presidency, Donald Trump has relished his power to put people into temporary roles across the government. Instead of nominating a permanent official by filling vacancies with officials serving in an acting capacity. Trump is able to bypass senate confirmation of his picks. Why go through a rigorous even embarrassing nomination process if you don't have to over the weekend trump once again skirted the approval of the nation's elected lawmakers by naming Anthony data a retired army. Brigadier. General to a senior role at the Pentagon that did not require approval. The appointment came just days after data was forced to withdraw nation for position in the same office that did require congressional consent last Thursday the Senate Armed Services Committee abruptly cancelled a hearing on `tatoes nomination to be Under Secretary of Defense for policy the Pentagon's number three position after senators and civil rights. Groups raised questions about his previous false and incendiary commentary tatum once called Barack Obama. Leader in claimed that Islam is the most oppressive violent religion I know of a recent CNN report found several other inflammatory tweets, most of which have since been deleted including one from May two, thousand, eighteen, a former CIA director John Brennan that red might be a good time to pick your poison firing squad public hanging life sentence as prison be word or just suck on your pistol your call Hashtag treason, Hashtag sedition, Hash Tag, Crossfire Hurricane Hashtag Obama. Gate tatum sixty later apologized for those comments according to a letter obtained by foreign policy, but it was not. Enough to reverse the damage apparently anticipating the nomination would be rejected the Senate. Armed Services. Committee called off the hearing and blamed it on data's low profile. There are many Democrats and Republicans who didn't know enough about Anthony data to consider him for a very significant position at this time. Senator. Jim inhofe, of Oklahoma, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee nevertheless three days later, the Pentagon confirmed data was appointed to the position of Deputy Undersecretary Defense for Policy One rung below the job he was initially intended to hold he looks forward to continuing to help implement. The president's national security agenda. A Pentagon spokesman said in a statement on Sunday the day of his appointment the decision drew fire from many Democrats on what they saw as blatant circumvention of Congressional Power Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island. The top Democrat of the Senate. Armed Services Committee called the move an insult to our troops professionals at the Pentagon the Senate and the American people clearly president trump wants people who will swear allegiance to him over the constitution. Read said in a statement, his handpicked candidate for this critical position was on the verge of potentially being rejected. On the merits, this is a flagrant and run around the confirmation process Stephen Vladeck professor at the University of Texas School of Law said, the administration's maneuvering may allow data to be installed as acting under secretary of defense for policy in the end by naming data as deputy, he could slide into the role within three months. This is all a naked Enron around five USC section thirty, three, forty, five, be Fedex said on twitter that provision of the Federal Vacancies Reform Act bars data from being named the acting undersecretary because he was nominated to the same job unless. He spent ninety days as the first assistant that clock is now running tatum has served as a senior advisor to Defense Secretary Mark Esperer since April although the Pentagon has yet to say exactly what issues he's advising on his twenty eight year military career, which included a stint as a deputy commander in Afghanistan ended in two thousand nine after investigators determined he engaged in at least two extramarital affairs which are crimes under the military justice system. The high turnover among senior leadership trump's administration has become one of the defining pillars of his presidency while trump's stays within. The stipulations of the Federal Vacancies Reform Act said in nineteen ninety eight to establish the procedure for filling vacant positions in the executive agency. Legal scholars say the rate at which he has appointed acting officials to his cabinet is concerning with nearly thirty acting secretaries. Trump's cabinet has been filled by more temporary replacements than any previous President I like acting it gives me more flexibility trump told reporters last year do you understand that I like acting at the Pentagon? The number of vacancies has hit unprecedented levels today more than one third of the sixty positions that require Senate. Approval remain unfilled said Representative Adam, Smith a Democrat from Washington state who chairs the House Armed Services Committee the open jobs underscore the deep discomfort that many have with the commander-in-chief willingness to evade the Senate's constitutionally prescribed advice and consent roll, which creates a vacuum that lawmakers fear trump will fill with unvetted political allies. The vacancies at the Department of Defence, which have now hit record highs under the trump administration should be filled through the existing nomination and confirmation process. Smith said in a statement if confirmations cannot be completed, the president must find new qualified people who can. Win The. Support of the Senate trump's habit of putting people into acting positions also raises the question of how long he can do. So before nominating permanent official under the Vacancies Act and acting secretary conserve two, hundred ten days from when the position was made vacant or three hundred days. If it's the administration's first year, if the nomination of a permanent official fails the acting secretary, conserve and additional two, hundred, ten days should a second nomination process failed the acting secretary conservative final two, hundred, ten days more no one has reached that limit in trump's presidency thus far. With, reporting Emma he took John.
The Elections Defender: Christopher Krebs
"Yeah. This is the takeout not what your country can do for you with major Garrett. Mr Bush off tear down this wall. Defining. Change has come through America and we will make America. Great. Again, welcome to the very best part of my broadcast week. I major Garrett chief White House correspondent CBS news, host and creator. This most amazing program known as the takeout. It's obviously a podcast. That's how it started. We think all of our only adopters, it's a radio program on more than forty, great radio stations around the country. And of course on CBS n low, it's a digital television show. I'm also the author have I mentioned this before I, I don't think I've ever mentioned this before. Ran new book, meet Mr. Trump's wild ride written by. That's right. You can see the name major Garrett by via Amazon. All great internet booksellers at your local bookstore or Costco. Notre my publisher last week, flying off the floors at Costco's around the country. Very good news. All right. We got a big topic this week. It's the elections coming up. You've possibly read something about that and the protection or the lack of. Of protection around those elections, and there's nobody better to speak to that issue both globally. And specifically than our guest, he's got a really long Washington title, get into that in a second. His name is Chris crabs, Chris say, good morning, good morning major. Good morning, everyone. It's good to have you with us. What is that? Big Washington title. Here you go take a breath. I. Under secretary for the department of homeland security's national protection and programs directorate otherwise known as the n. p. p. d. Washington has a massive habit of applying acronyms to just about everything. So Chris cribs what does that mean? National protection and programs directorate it is awful. It is awful. So the the mission of NPD and I've made this joke before, but it does sound like a Soviet era, military intelligence agency. But it it's, it's the agency and DHS responsible for leading the nation's critical infrastructure. Cyber security and physical security efforts. Protection programs is a bit of a catchall term that was generated to cover the bases of all the things that were happening in this component back in two thousand seven when it was kind of an island misfit toys though. So things that had disparate functions didn't fit elsewhere in the department, whether it was TSA or female, or ice or CB p the kind of fiddle together an NPD. Now since two thousand seven, when you look at the landscape some things we'll talk about later in the in the podcast cybersecurity, two thousand seven. It was thing. It's not quite the thing it is today cyber security's the one of our top priorities along with other physical security, like school safety in soft targets. So we've been working in the prior administration started this effort, but I think we've, we've almost gotten. Across the finish line, but working with the hill to pass of legislation called the cyber security and infrastructure security agency act. Now, it's still going to be a little bit of a jumble of an acronym cisa CIs a, but it more clearly describes what we do cybersecurity infrastructure security and builds a separate bureaucracy around it or underneath it. Now it actually Tate what it does is it takes an existing organization. That's a headquarters element, and that's, you know, hangs off the secretary's office and makes an operational agency like TSA like FEMA, but also similar to the FBI. We have a connection to headquarters. We take our direction from headquarters, but we're, we're operational at the same time. It streamlines some of the functions within the gets rid of that bureaucracy and by so doing. And I know this sounds a little dense folks like, oh, you Washington people, you get into all your structures, but look, structure matters and relationships to the secretary matters agency standing. Matters. Yes. These things sound debut lists. They sound like part of Washington, ceaseless navel-gazing and bureau, bureaucratic upsmanship or one woman ship, but it matters how you structure things, what they're called and what this, the relationship, both the secretary to the president and the underlying bureaucracy. So you're gonna get this legislation yesterday. Well, pass out Senate to two weeks ago runs back over to the house. There's some technical language, so hopefully the first week they get back after terms it'll be, but but the thirty cleared the house wants just little technical cleanup. So hopefully the week of the twelfth, and we're, we're Rockin on all. Let's jump into this election issue. I've got some soundbites all play later from others who have commented about this, but I want you to because you have an opportunity at this moment to speak to a very wide audience. What is the state of election security? How concerned are you and how concerned should the average voter be about anything going awry in terms of participation or accurate county. Yes. So over the course of the last two years out of the partnerships between d. h. ask the federal government state and local election officials, which by constitution and law are responsible for administering elections. There's never been quite this level of partnership, and I've made the comment before the that the way I see it in the work that's gone into securing the election of the last year and a half or so. This'll be in the modern era, at least one of the most secure if not the most secure election, that's that's due to the retirement of legacy systems. That legacy a legacy system has some of those those systems that are were put in place their service fifteen plus years ago. So there's been a lot of work of the last couple years to get those machines out, get more audible machines in there and introduce paper ballots across the board as much as possible now proves the auditing. Yes, it does in on it. It's it's important at that audit ability is a key tenant of information security if you don't know what's all informations, IT security. In general, audit ability is a key tenant. If you don't know what's going on in the network, it, you can't look at the logs then you don't really have confidence in the enterprise. Same thing goes here. We want as much audit ability as possible so we can understand even if something goes wrong because something goes wrong. Look at what's happening in Florida. Right now, you have a hurricane. That's decimated. The panhandle, they're twenty two days out from an election, what else? Sorts of infrastructure decimated. And let's be honest folks in the ranking of priorities, right? A power, water medicine, workable treatment facilities for people who are injured or become injured or become sick all our much farther ahead of polling stations. I mean, just naturally, I mean as as a practical matter. Right. And so so the the workability of that election is affected by this reality, but the storm and the comparatively lower priority fixing that system is going to be on the list of on the punch list yet, so too can. Round out on your original question. The the America voter should be confident that there's been a significant amount of work d. h. s. we're working with with every single state in some shape or fashion. There's been a significant amount of effort put into securing this election, but this is a race without an end. We will always be looking to close out every last vulnerability but but it's it's not about a hundred percent security. It's about resilience. So I wanna talk to you about what you just said, communication interaction. Here's a sound by Jamie, it's or Elliott sites. Number five. This is Missouri secretary of state. Jay Ashcroft testifying on local election security for the Senate rules, administration committee, June twentieth of this year number five states have and will continue to work with federal agencies regardless of any new legislation. However, any new mandates must remedy the failure of federal agencies to communicate and work with local election authorities failure, federal agencies to communicate and work with local election thirties. What's he talking. What are you feeling thousand sixteen was one of the biggest failures in sixteen, as I see kind of through the the hindsight lens was that when we got an understanding when the intelligence community began understand what the Russians were trying to do in the election, tack in state and local election equipment there was in this is a simplification, but it was their clearances in classified information that couldn't directly shared because at the time security election officials, they didn't have the necessary clearances to review information to look at it. Yeah. So that was the communication barrier that was one communication barrier. Another communication berry which trust so DHS had never had a relationship with secretaries of state like like secretary Ashcroft. So when we call to, hey, you need to do something. We can't tell you why. The heavy hand of the federal government is trying to meddle in our. Yeah, in in this usually defined territory, yes in, that's that's a sacred space. So at the time there wasn't that trust. Now, two years in I was in Saint Louis a couple of weeks ago with secretary Ashcroft had an election summit election security summit. The trust is there now because we've put work into, we've established communications channels. We've provided something of value to them in terms of information, technical assistance, training, and exercises, things like that. So we're we're miles beyond where we weren't sixteen. That's Chris cribs cybersecurity elections. I'm just going to shorten the title. That's why, and that's the topic major get where it firefly restaurant. When we come back for you, all of you watching and enjoying on CBS unexplained. The big gourds behind us when we come back, but hold on back Inman. You're listening to the takeout from CBS News, Radio edgier, welcome. Backward firefly restaurant near the CBS bureau, just south of DuPont circle. What you see if you're watching on CBS n. behind us that big sort of phony tree. That's always here. We're not in the middle of a tree house. It looks that way, but it's not. It's just decoration, but the gorge. Well, it's fall folks. Okay. Halloween is approaching. Maybe you've heard about it anyway. That's what the gourds are very nice decorations. Don't you think Chris? Very nice, very good. He's kind of a man a few words. So they're nice. So we get out of Chris, Chris, Kreps again, I'm gonna do the full title, but just basically under snow understand department of homeland security, cyber security and critical infrastructure. But the title under secretary department of homeland security, national protection and programs directorate. Okay. The topic we're going to really delve in on Hello by the way, Ryan is here good morning, so I'm very happy to be here. Very hungry. Could have the mushroom omelette please, and the chef throw in some bacon as well inside the omelet that do you have any wheat. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Chris, and let me do coffee and I'll do the. I'll do the yogurt. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. All right. I wanna play for you because one of the things we love about this show, Chris is sort of a continuous conversation. We have people appear here. We are all the things they say that we have our future guests react to them. So we had a conversation not too long ago with Mark Warner Senator from Virginia. I know you're very familiar with Senator Warner vice chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, and we were talking about election security and your bureaucratic bailiwick. So Elliott's number six play that please. DHS Kenna offer technical services and assistance. Down to the local level, but there's no requirement that local registrar, we'll take it. So my concern is day Justice coming in with these expertise and some local registrar says, well, you know, that sounds good. I'm with the feds messing with my stuff. I'm gonna use my brother-in-law who's the IT specialist and there's no backstop on that on how we make sure that again, that there is a appropriate audit other many brother-in-law's running IT's for local election fficials I, you know what? Honestly I do. I do think so. I think the medium small businesses across the country that play a significant important role in cybersecurity. It's out there. We've seen it out there. There was a an event that happened earlier this year where a company that I'd never heard of came in and did actually really good work. So this one is about the president might say, it's a good thing, not a bad thing to have a brother-in-law running IT at a local election. It's a good thing that everybody's involved. Okay, that everyone's involved. That's your threshold assessment. You don't need because in your previous life in the private sector you work for Microsoft kind of a big company has sort of a profile on these questions. Doesn't need to be Microsoft now in. It doesn't have to be either. And that's one thing that one of the things we're really underscoring while I would like everyone to work with me. It's not desposited that they have good security if they don't, if they don't work with. Got it. And I wanna play also something because this goes to intent motive and who the threatening entities are out there. This is the president United States, September twenty six at the United Nations. General assembly. That's number one Ellie. Please regrettably. We found that China has been attempting to interfere in our upcoming Twenty-eight teen election. Coming up in November. Against my administration. They do not want me or us to win because I am the first president ever to challenge China on trade and we are winning on trade. We are winning at every level. We don't want them to metal or interfere in our upcoming election, Chris Crips to fight for my audience what the president means when he says interfere and meddling in the context of China. And is there any evidence to point to about either? So when you think about interference, when you think about foreign influence, you kind of have to look at it across the spectrum or number different buckets where we've seen the Russians be most active, particularly sixteen was over in the election hacking technical hacking of election equipment at the state and local level. Then you have a couple of other buckets and one of them is social media influence campaigns. Another one is hacking and leaking of political campaigns. Like we saw with the DNC and Padeshah Russians on all three of those. Oh, yeah, they're, they're very active in the space. They're noisy in their their priorities are more about creating divisiveness and undermining confidence, democratic, protecting us against one, yes. In they've, they've been quite effective on the other side of the spectrum, you have more subtle political policy based engagements at the Chinese are actually very good at as well. There's much subtler. It's quieter. It's below the radar to a certain extent, but it's about in some cases using. Media paid advertisements. It's about sympathetic spokesman, but what they're trying to influence policy outcomes. So they're trying to find ways to influence talk to mid west farmers about trade or something in in really teasing out. What at you know, a result at the poll that would would that would benefit their policy? Does the subtlety and the public nature of what China's doing, make it less malevolent? Oh, absolutely. Not. In fact, it's it's probably a little bit more insidious insidious because in the way I say that the reason I say that it's because the again, the Russians are there out front, they're very involved. We had a great deal of discussion about what they've been doing, what they didn't sixteen, but even back in sixteen when we first started talking about the Russians like, oh, we'll wears the evidence. Where's the evidence was like, we're we're building the case, and then it blows open and it was so pervasive in across the board what's going on right now with China, it I feel to a certain extent, we're a little bit like where we were in sixteen. So you just use pervasive and across the board. I don't believe the president's even used that language to describe Russia, two twenty sixteen? Why is it difficult for him to be as open and declarative as you just were? Well, I look, we've gone back and forth on this. When a number of times. But the president's been very clear that he supports the intelligence community assessment of two thousand seventeen January two thousand seventeen that is the absolute baseline for establishing an in articulating what Russia did across the election hacking space, the hacking leak of political campaigns and in the social media and traditional media because you gotta gotta remember, it wasn't always. It wasn't only Facebook and Twitter. There were exploited in those other social media campaigns RT and Sputnik. Are there? Well, I mean, basically they are state sponsored media are on television arts, Nick on radio, right? And so they are a, they're the voice of the Kremlin. So when Putin wants to get his message out there, they amplify and candidate Trump talked RT. He did. Yeah. So. I would have to go back and look at that. I'm sure he did. I'm sure a lot of folks in. Yeah. And what in the fifty, four seconds before we go to break and we can carry over on this, what is detectable now that the Russians are doing in two thousand eighteen as much little are they backed off any. So we have seen across the election hacking space, a steady drumbeat, basically of attack attack it. Yeah. And it's it's hard to say and we don't have any attribution anywhere whether it's Russia or anywhere else. Right now we do see actors, you know, day-to-day cyber-security activity targeting election equipment, but it's not that there's been an increase necessarily. We do have broader awareness based on this partnerships we've developed between the various states and local election officials. So we have a greater awareness, but we don't necessarily see a significant increase attributed to anyone act got a major Garrett, Chris Crips he's the department of homeland security, big topics. I security and the elections. He does other things. We'll get to those in a minute. We're at firefly. We have breakfast coming very soon. I hope and we're slugging down our coffee and more on the other side of this. Before we go to break, it's time to learn more about this week's restaurant with Nikki Nellis where at firefly Nikki Nellis who knows all sees all about the DC restaurant scene is with us, NICKY. Tell us about firefight about firefly at its DuPont circle, which is truly a neighborhood area of DC. And this restaurant has been here for twenty years. It's an kipton property and kipton is really known for creating these neighborhood restaurants within their hotels. People who stay at the hotel actually get a really neighborhoody experience, but don't let neighborhood destroy what you think about firefly. I mean, this is a place that really cares about sustainability and quality ingredients, a terrific chef, Richard Falbo who's really putting out fabulous meals for both breakfast, lunch and dinner. Great cocktail program, a great beer program, and they constantly do promotions here to engage, not just with people staying at the hotel, but also people in the community. And when you say neighborhood restaurant, what you mean is people come here who live here. Right? And so they mixed with the patrons who are staying here. So it's kind of an interesting combination. You have a real authentic TC experience. The canals knows all sees all TC restaurants. Thanks very much. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, takeout podcast that at takeout podcast. From CBS news. This is the takeout with major Garrett. That's may welcome back major Garrett. Our guest, Chris cribs department of homeland security, national protection and programs directorate forget all that nonsense. It's just national infrastructure and election security. That's our big topic boy as the marketing department, so angry with me. It's been like seven weeks since I've done a sticker plug so stickers gotta talk about the stickers just for a second, Chris, indulge me please. Yeah. So we have created the graphical for those of you watching on CBS and for those listening to radio podcasts, you know, at the arts, take podcast sicker signed by me major Garrett if you're interested. Well, this is how you get them. To get your very own takeout podcast or signed by me. There's only one way in one way only there's no security dimension to this at all. Ladies and gentlemen because we won't respond to or accept a Facebook post a Twitter post or any kind of Instagram. No, no, you got to do some work very old school. So to obtain your very own takeout podcast or signed by me, you must send your request. Get this, Chris, along with a self addressed stamped on to out sticker care of CBS news at twenty twenty m street, northwest Washington, DC, two, zero zero, three, six. The way I used to get my secret to KOTA ring back in the several. That's exactly right. So Chris. On our program before we have had general assessments of hacking election systems in the kind of things that might go arrive and our experts who are trained in this who are authors about this set a couple of things that I want to run by you. The idea the common idea is, oh, four thousand votes are going to be changed and they're like, maybe. But really it doesn't even have to be that it could be just ripples of confusion. You could hack assist them registrar system, for example, and just change addresses by one number. And then someone comes and says, I'm here to vote and they say, let's see you again at the wrong place and like what that is a real thing right that it could be that subtle that small and create not necessarily changed votes, but confusion, provisional ballots and lots of Unst instability. Right? Is that if I described. If I just grab one hundred percent, but but you, you mentioned something important here and that's provisional ballots. So there's resilience built into the system. So if something like that does happen, like in two thousand sixteen when the Russians had access to voter registration database, they deleted had they manipulated voter registration information in a voter. It showed up and they were not able to vote or I'm sorry, they, they're not on the poll book, right? But they know they're allowed to vote. They show up name request to provisional ballot. These things happen whether it's a foreign actor or due to a technical glitch. All this happened in the in the primaries in in Maryland, in LA county or round California folks look know where you are supposed to vote, verify or registration verify your location, but no your rights, you know, make sure that when you get there, something goes wrong. You had the ability request a provisional ballot, right? And this has been a stray. Shin has suggested to states, and some states have carried this out. The purge. Of of voter, registration rolls for people who are inactive or should not be on those rules? Correct. Well, that's not a security issue that is a voter maintenance, and that's that is within the domain of the secretaries of state in the election systems commission provides technical assistance there, but we're my organizations folks on these security, the cyber and physical security. The voting risk is the idea votes changing through hacking. It is within the realm of things that we're worried about for sure, but to to your earlier point at this point, that's not even my area I, it is our area focused, but when I think about the bad things that are most likely to happen. Okay. It's probably somebody just hopping on social media and saying, hey, I wasn't able to do XYZ or I was able to get in there and manipulate database. So it's the, it's the specter right of hacking, that's probably and then and then the wildfire conversation that could ensue and the confusion day of. You can see it's for sure possible, but think about, you know, kind of three things. One on the hacking front, it's it's costly to do. It's not always effective in the risks are pretty high. On the other side, social media manipulation, it's very cheap. It's usually pretty effective in. There's very little, very little risk. So let's talk about this upcoming election polling data regardless of what it suggests about what may or may not happen. You don't know. I don't know. I don't make any predictions, but what we have seen consistently is people are very interested and turn out is likely to be high by mid term historical standards. The systems are going to be stressed because it seems like a lot of people are gonna show up. How much is that a problem for you as you look at these underlying issues? Just the the sheer number of people coming in. So first and foremost, I think that's a great thing. It's a great thing that that folks are going to get out. You gotta remember though? Yeah, these systems, the bra. Election system in and of itself. We got to be patient when you get up. There's a line just take your time. You know, wait it out. Wait it out to the broader security space, the volume up and down as it really going to stress our capabilities or anything along those lines. We are still focused on supporting the state and local folks getting them the information they need for the if they have a bad day where they're so I mentioned Senator Warner on our show before takeout episode, September fourteenth in this sound by which I wanna play. Number seven l. e. he actually feel sorry, not for you specifically, but for you in general, here's why in a normal world after this kind of election interference, you would appoint a White House democrat or Republican would appoint someone to be affecting the convener policies on election security, and I feel bad for some of the Trump folks because they realize the fact that this president still doesn't acknowledge the. The attack means that we have no one in charge. We have no White House individual that is trying to convene all these groups. Their efforts made department of homeland security, but there's a lot of pushback on HSA just institutional address that I, you know, let's not mistake the lack of a person for the lack of coordination, the coronation quitting meccas mechanisms are there. We work very closely with the director of national intelligence, Dan Coats. We work very closely with the FBI director Ray and his team. We understand our respective authorities and responsibilities. These things don't cut and merge cleanly. We've got to do our part, but to that point that we made earlier that bureaucracies relationship structures matter there is a sense that if somebody was in the White House every day to crack heads, if necessary, that person could and that person doesn't exist, you know, ambassador Bolton is out in front on these issues. We have cybersecurity coordinators for sure, but also the intelligence. Let's remind remember that that again, the processes that we're talking about here, exist, independent of whatever the the threat landscape looks like. So when we're focused on something like election security, we're able to scale up our resources needed. So I again, I'm not that concerned that there is not an election security coordinator in the White House because we are doing what we need to do. I mentioned this before. This is one aspect of your job critical infrastructures, part of your David Sanger who I think, you know, well, either by reputation of personally, probably both was on our show July thirteenth. About his book, the perfect weapon, which is very much about this topic of overall cyber security. This is number ten l. e. this is a larger orientation to that same point. Go ahead if there is a major cyber attack in coming months or years, and there will be ones like, you know, hurricane season comes along, you don't know where it's gonna strike in when it's going to be, you know, there's going to be a hurricane, you know, there's going to be a big cyber strike if at some point we go back and say, what happened to our defenses? And we try to do this certainly an issue. I think investigators congress others would look at is why did you get rid of the top cyber security coordinator in the White House? You wouldn't imagine getting rid of nuclear coordinator. You wouldn't imagine getting rid of nuclear coordinator and many on this show have said cyber-security is the next battlespace for our country. This is respected journalist who knows this issue. Well, respond to that. There are a lot of varying. Opinions on this. But again, this goes to don't mistake the lack of a coordinator for the lack of coordination when you focus, because that's really what these criticisms are. That without a White House person, there's less focused than there otherwise could be. But we have to keep in mind that when the White House coordinator position was established in the early days of the Obama administration was because of the lack of maturity across the inner agency in there were significant turf battles happening at the time. DHS was the new kid on the block, didn't have the Thorens didn't have the funding. Everything has changed in the intervening eight, nine turf battles are over. They've the lines have been drawn right now is there you know rice bowling? Sure. What's the. Well, you know, it's little pieces of turf that folks are, you know, still kinda struggling over its protecting the rights. We've heard that on the show rice bowling. That's good. When we're gonna talk about more on that in the rates, and we're gonna jump into our breakfast because it's arrived major Garrett with Chris crabs back in a second. You're listening to the takeout. I major Garrett welcome back for those of you watching on CBS and the traveling gourds are with us here at firefly restaurant, right near the Washington DC bureau. CBS Chris cribs two prominent homeland security national critical infrastructure to the title. Again, that's what he's here about, and I don't think in this climate meeting heading toward the election, we can't tell too deeply into this underlying topic of security. What happened in two thousand sixteen? What's our knowledge? What's been our intensity and aftermath of gaining that knowledge in verifying it. So Chris, I wanna play voice that I think you'll recognize because it's yours. July eleventh testimony to the house homeland security committee that's on byte number eight, Jamie. If you please? I would suspect and Ginette assistant. Secretary man for said this believe secretary. Nielsen said this too. I I would suspect that the Russians probably scanned all fifty states and five territories. And the district of Columbia scanning. It happens every day. It's an automated process. Again, I think based on the twenty one number. That's what we're able to see. We have better visibility going into eighteen. We basically have will have access to close to fifty percent of visible. I'm sorry, hundred percent visibility into at least the state networks. So tell our audience what you meant when you said scanning, what is that as a matter of technical expertise or maybe semi expertise? Yeah. So to bring this into something, it's probably a little bit more understandable. It's it's the, it's the burglar driving down the street, checking out the houses, sometimes kinda rattle in the doorknobs in the moving onto the next house. It's looking for easy openings, certain configurations that would allow for attacks. And so we do at the county by county level or city by city level state county city. Right? Yeah. Anything that's lots of doors to check rattle. Yeah. And what's your communication is therefore make sure as you talked to each and every one of these entities state county and city lock your doors. So what we do is we actually provide a service that does exactly that that scans that scan state and local and county level networks, looking for configuration, errors, vulnerabilities, things like that in help do what the bad guys with. So let's play this up because one of the things we love to do on the shows. Exactly. It's tried to explain to people how these things actually work. So you do a scan of, let's say, just take, for example, my hometown of San Diego. There's something wrong with sandiego knows. I love San Diego, but let's just say you scan and you see something. What do you say? How does that work? So what's the turnaround? So it starts actually before all that we're where we talked to the city of San Diego for instance, and we say, hey, let's do this together. Let it they know it, you know it, okay, it's agreed. I mean, we don't do this without the the right legal agreements in place. They have to identify what their infrastructure is. There. Issue getting that acceptance and issue it say it's an issue. It's just we have to get more people coming forward. So we market our service folks say yet, we wanna do that force it. We don't have the authority to compel should action because that's a big question. Should the federal government have the authority to say, you know what security of elections is not just an issue, it's a federal issue, and the feds are going to tell you now that they're at least in certain things you have to do to be compliant. Does that is that you do you support that? I don't think we're there yet. I think the way you're good idea for certain things, I think we can say this is kind of what the bare minimum of security approach looks like. DHS provides DHS not the only game in town. There are private sector capabilities their in house capabilities. This is shared responsibility. We have to keep in mind that states have skin in the game here as well. They have to make sure that their funding at the right legislatively. That's nowhere near happening. There are a number of efforts of foot on the hillside. Elections act as one of them, we provided a significant amount of technical assistance, two senators, Langford and clothing char and others on their their bills. But I just I don't need a piece of legislation to make sure that I'm offering the services. Right. Okay. We've figured so back to our analogy of you're, you had an agreement with San Diego. Again, there's nothing wrong with staying ego to my hometown. It's just illustrious give and there's an agreement you do scan and you say, well, they're seven doors that are not less secure than they should be. Then what happens. So we give them a read out on cyber hygiene scan is the service we provide that that does this remote scanning. We give them a by weekly report says, here's what we found. We can help you take care of it or you're going to go take care. And that's to sensually a four year information deal. It's not like what we found it. So you'd better do this or else you have no power to entire responsibility. We provide as much help as we possibly can. Is that process in any way transparent? Can anyone in the general public find out about an agreed agreement, a scan and vulnerabilities. So this is a relationship that's based on trust in confidentiality. So when we have these engagements with, it could be subject to state sunshine laws or other. But at the federal level, we're protecting this information because it is a, it's a security issue because if it were published people with than others who may be curious about this would know what the voter abilities are. Yeah, that's certainly one outcome that you're worried about. That's why it's not transparent. Well, there that and also we have got to incentivize more folks to come forward. Work with the federal government on security issues in transparency discourages the, I would not say transparency can discourage that, but a protected environment in which we can address problems collaboratively is going to get more folks coming forward. All right. We got two and a half minutes. I know we've drilled down as I wanted to, and I think already truly appreciate. I certainly hope so this idea because the election is the big topic and we'll be in the remaining days between now and the midterm elections, but there are other parts of national infrastructure. Describe what they are, what you work on, that's not related to election security. You got two minutes. Go ahead yacht it industrial control systems and industrial control systems. Are the systems that Lee that. Support hard infrastructure, electricity transportation of the things that move in our infrastructure, industrial control systems, help facilitate those movements. That's an error that we're really focusing on right now. Last summer, we issued a number of reports. The Russians were actively in the space looking for vulnerabilities and we work what's a potential rebutted in time when electricity literacy is one of them pipelines is one of them. So moving actual gas or other things? Yeah, anywhere within the energy infrastructure. Other number of different industrial control systems, whether it's oil and natural gas petrochemical, things like that. So working with this is kind of the the frontier right now, I think information technology security. His been a significant area focus for many, many years. ICS is kind of at the at the vanguard right now, but seven back more broadly. We're also looking at supply chain issues, supply chain security. We what does that mean? So it's a compromising. A third party vendor for instance to get into the target. So if you're a managed service provider, you're providing cloud or some sort of business process to a bigger company. Okay. What we've seen the adversary Russia in China do is take a look at how to work their way into the target company or organization through their vendor that may not have the right the right security in place in in taking advantage of that trusted relationship between the two. Right. So use the less fortified vendor as a means to get to the target company. That's yeah, that's one way to describe it. The other is is again, it's compromising that trusted relationship between the two because the target then isn't necessarily always looking for it. That is Chris crabs. I'm gonna do it one more time because I've got a full breath of my lungs because it's a big title. What is his title under secretary for the department of homeland security, national protection and programs directorate the conversation has been about election security. And department of homeland security, Chris. Great guests. Thanks for the information. We appreciate it. Thank you. It's been a great, a great breakfast as always next week folks for more from this week's conversation, download the takeout outtake espec- out Tuesday morning wherever you listen to your podcasts. The takeout is produced by ardent Faren Kateyana crescendo and Jamie Benson CBS end production by Alexander -ment layer guile and Eric SU, sonnet follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at takeout podcast. That's at takeout podcast. And for more visit takeout podcast dot com. The takeout is a production of CBS News, Radio.
NPR News: 11-02-2019 1AM ET
"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity some things are slow like simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply ended in southern California NPR's Kirk Siegler has the latest on a fast moving brush multiday long Santa Ana wind event the fires burning and brush lands and threatening hundreds these embers are a big concern there drifting sometimes a mile or more ahead of the initial wall of flames the eighties which is keeping fire managers on edge Kirk Siegler NPR News Los Angeles host in the trump administration Chad Wolf the current acting under secretary of the department lesion is acting secretary the White House has reportedly considered a number of potential through Johnston reporting former Congressman Award says he's ending his bid for the Democratic presidential Mississippi a federal judge says he will not stop the state from using a unique set of election Sousse four African American voters had sued arguing that Mississippi's multi-step and but left open the possibility of considering the case later candidates for statewide office just gets to pick the winner the election rolls were put in Mississippi's eighteen ninety constitution how gained three hundred and one points this is NPR news one answer any questions at a closed door hearing but would consider giving public testimony period smell the company that Joe Biden's son Hunter worked for the nation's largest flight attendants Organiz Delta flight attendants in Video Delta's twenty five thousand flight attendants a union behind you your efforts to gain legal standing as AFA members Delta the last was in two thousand ten when out of nearly nineteen thousand ballots cast
News in Brief 26 February 2019
"This is the news in brief from the United Nations donors have pledged two point six billion dollars to provide urgently needed support a millions of Yemeni. People facing an overwhelming humanitarian calamity U N secretary General Antonio Gutierrez said on Tuesday, speaking on the sidelines of a pledging conference in Geneva. Mister, Gutierrez welcomed the general Steve Member States who have pledged thirty percent more than last year. But he appealed for an end to the conflict amid desperate and widespread. Suffering Dan's of thousands of people have been killed or injured since the conflict escalated, many of them civilians and many more have died from preventable. Diseases existed. Rated by Malo tradition. Twenty million people cannot reliably feed themselves or their families and almost ten million are just one step away from feminine. And when Carroll reports put the number of children and the five website of salvation at more than eighty thousands. Mr. you terrace also announced that the World Food Program has finally been able to. Reach the Red Sea meals in the key port city of data where it has more than fifty thousand tons of wheat, which is enough to feed three point seven million people for a month. They response to a deadly Ebola virus outbreak in the Democratic Republic of the Congo or DRC risks, backsliding without more support from the international community. The head of the U. N health agency has said the latest outbreak in eastern DRC has claimed five hundred twenty nine lives, but two hundred fifty seven people have survived while more than eighty thousand people have been vaccinated, and at least four hundred have received treatment the virus has also been contained prevented from spreading to neighboring countries in an appeal for nearly one hundred fifty million dollars while Health Organization director general Dr Ted dwells Adinan Gabriel's warned that less than ten million has been found. This is despite unprecedented challenges linked to the insecurity of the outbreak zone where a med sense on frontier facility was attacked on Sunday night. And where more than one hundred armed groups operate with ongoing transmission in Battambang and catwalk. Dr Ted Ross warned that there is a risk. It could reach into even more volatile and dangerous areas. Where almost no one can. Great safely and finally to Zimbabwe where the UN's top emergency relief coordinator is to visit people hardest hit by food insecurity linked to an economic crisis and erotic rainfall more than five million Zimbabweans up believed to be an urgent need of assistance today. According to the UN humanitarian office Archer needs are growing after outbreaks of diarrheal diseases drought and flooding in the second part of last year and UN children's fund UNICEF has warned that up to one million people are at risk of cholera nationally during his tour which begins on Wednesday you and under secretary general Mark Lowcock, his due to meet senior government officials in Zimbabwe and humanitarian organisations, Daniel Johnson UN news.
Scientism Isnt Scientific
"Komo. Scientists would say that curiosity is necessary trait for them to excel in their field one. Theoretical physicists also suggest another one humility for the Colson center, I'm John Stonestreet. This is breakpoint CS Lewis is the screw tape letters has a lot of amazing insights on the working of our enemy, but one of my favorites occurs. When the demon under secretary advises his nephew above all do not attempt to use science as a defense against Christianity. It will positively encourage your patient to think about realities he can't touch and see there have been sad cases. Among modern physicist. Of course when screw tape. Call sad cases are wins. For christianity. One such case is Dartmouth theoretical physicists Marcelo Glazer who was recently profiled by scientific American Glazer's known for studying the properties of the early universe. The behavior fundamental particles and the origin of life. In other words, he studying those realities we can't touch or see that screw tape mentioned now to be clear Glazer calls himself and agnostic. Not a Chris. Still he's the latest recipient of the Templeton prize awarded to individuals who've made an exceptional contribution to affirming, life, spiritual. Dimension the reason simple Glazer, unlike many science popularizer is in our day. Boldly admits that science has its limits and urges his fellow scientists to respect those limits Kleiser uses a metaphor to illustrate this which he calls the island of knowledge. It's also the title of a book he's written. He urges us all to imagine all the discoveries of science as a small island surrounded by an ocean of the unknown. The paradox of knowledge he observes is that it expands and the boundary between the known, and the unknown changes. You inevitably start to ask questions that you couldn't even ask before. In other words. Scientists so limited that not only are there many things we don't know we don't even know what we don't know. Thus the very best scientists are humble recognizing the limits of their discipline and understanding that science cannot offer answers about ultimate meaning purpose or moral truth. Well, that's quite a. Contrast in many science popularizer 's who frequently wonder off the island of knowledge into water way over their heads Glazer mentions both warrants Krause in the late Stephen hawking both known for making bold claims that science Nunnelee tells us how the universe exists, but why another well known example is Carl Sagan who famously began his Cosmo's TV series with this pronouncement, the cosmos is all there is all there ever was an all there ever will be were all of these men were outspoken in their atheism confidently declaring that science disproves the existence of God, or at least renders him unnecessary. Categorical statements of non belief like that says blazer don't just go beyond the bounds of science. There actually incompatible with the scientific method. This whole notion of finality and final ideas, he told scientific American is just an attempt to turn science into a religious system. Well, there's a name for that religious system. Scientism the belief that science is the only valid source of human knowledge. Instead of staying humbling curious proponents of scientism. Insist that any question we can't answer and a laboratory isn't worth asking an effect standing on their little island of knowledge they deny that vast ocean. That's lapping at their toes. All this reminds me of a debate between apologist William lane, Craig Oxford chemist, Peter Atkins aci- called science omnipotent. That's a divine attribute according to him. There's nothing. Science cannot. Explain Craig smile disagreed and then listed five things. Science cannot explain logical and mathematical Trues metaphysical truths like the existence of other minds in the external world, ethical values aesthetic, judgments, and most importantly, the scientific method itself where Glazer may not be convinced of God's existence. But I do pray for the increase of this, theoretical physicist tribe. We need more scientists to give faith a fair shake and less advocates of scientists. Who think they already know all the answers for breakpoint, I'm John Stonestreet.
Is the Swedish model a death sentence? And, does Australia need a post-Covid economic partnership with the US, Japan and India?
"Welcome to between the lines. This is Tom Switzer. And thanks for tuning. In now later on the show Sweden whereas most nations have imposed strict lockdowns. Stockholm has taken a relatively permissive approach. We'll ask leading Swedish intellectual about. He's nations controversial Corona vars strategy. Is it really a global role model plus if night at heard about the Quad Australia the US Japan and India to form security issues in East Asia well in the post covert era should the quad become a relevant economic partnership so we depend less on China before covert nineteen? China was a hub in vital supply chains. Those days are over. Stay with us for my chat with former. Us Under Secretary of State. Paula Dobriansky will in the last week or so. Australia has declared a success in flattening the curve. We've had something of a victory. Iva Virus at least compared to many countries around the world but as we emerge from the last few weeks of lockdowns people are asking about what we got right and what we got wrong. And what's the best way forward? What do you think well throughout this crisis? One Country has student when most of Europe went into strict lockdown in much Sweden but the trend social distancing was recommended and large gatherings were banned but restaurants workplaces and junior schools and boarders. I stayed open in pursuit of what some people call herd immunity strategy. So how's it going? And what listens are there for Australia? Will Swedish Intellectual Johan? Norberg is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and he's author of progress ten reasons to look forward to the future Johan welcome back to between the lines. Thank you great to be back now this week. The Australian Treasury Josh Freudenberg was asked if we would follow the Swedish example as we into the next stage of the vars response and he ruled it out and he said quote. Sweden has forty percent of Australia's population but Sydney tons the death right. The numbers speak for themselves. That's Josh Freudenberg. Our Prime Minister Scott Morrison waiting. He called Sweden's approach a death sentence. Johan what do you think well? I have to admit that compared to Australia. Sweden does not look like a success but in fact nothing looks like a success. Compared to Australia right now except for possibly New Zealand is in the same vicinity but every European country has suffered much much worse whether they've had entered lockdowns or more of a Swedish line and I think that's partly because we got the transmission Into our population at earlier in a more massive stage. It's more difficult to when we have all these land borders next to countries with millions and millions of people and of infected so. I don't think the comparison with Australia is. Is that relevant apart? From the fact that you also have to deal with it longtime when you get out of the lockdowns and when you begin to approach more of an open world again with will global travel then at least the World Health Organization says that Sweden might be a model to look to in any case and and and despite everything so far Sweden has been an outlier when it comes to policy but not when it comes to the outcomes sweetness somewhere in the middle when it comes to European states. Okay no matter how you add the numbers up. Sweden has more deaths than your Nordic neighbours. What do you expect to see in those countries as as Tonga's on that's true so far it looks worse in Sweden? But why is that well? The assumption from Swedish L. Authorities. Is that our neighbors. They have merely postponed cases and deaths. They have not avoided them. They went into lockdown. Which means that in the short run. It looks good but once they get out of it and they're starting to get out of it now. The the lockdowns on the shutdowns. They're bound to see a second wave of infections and deaths the thing to ask when you look at the Swedish model is at. Did we avoid to overwhelm our healthcare system Did those who suffer and died from covy. Nineteen would they have died in any case if they got this disease six months later or twelve months later? So did we avoid that kind of healthcare breakdown and it seems like we did that all the time. The intensive care units have had an excess capacities. Weeden by around twenty percent. So far so it seems like They they would have died from the disease whenever we got the disease into our population. And what I expect from our neighbors. Unfortunately that without a vaccine and that might be a year away and could take much longer. They won't be able to avoid it in the long run and they will suffer those consequences once they get out of lockdown. Y'All try to do with a healthy shoe shortly but before that I just wanted to bring to your attention a new report from Goldman Sachs this week. It says that other countries should be aware of adopting the Swedish model and stressed Sweden has unique characteristics. That make it work. It has after all half the population density of Italy a very high proportion of single occupancy households and a relatively low proportion of multigenerational households. I mean do you agree with this. I mean is this something that could only work in Sweden. That is a possibility and you know sweetness country of introverts away. We did social distancing before it was cool. We don't spend too much time between generations as they do in in southern Europe so it might be that we are an exception in some ways and I think that this is an argument to try different solutions in place. I don't think we can go for one blueprint on a global level and we cannot do it on the national level. Because it's these differences. Are they exist? Within countries as well for example stock home are capital is much more heavily than other parts of Sweden Partly because we had a spring break when everybody traveled to Italy to go skiing and they got the disease. They're also because we're more densely populated other parts of Sweden. They're not the same so I think we need solutions in different places. It might not be at the Swedish model works everywhere or about your Swedish prime minister. He's a former trade union. Bosses was head of the middle workers. Union now he's concerned has been very much on jobs in the long term security of Sweden's as social welfare system in Australia and indeed in America and Britain. It to me. The health officials are really playing a prominent role in determining public policy and the lockdowns he in Sweden is it fair to say that the politicians not the public health authorities are really making the calls. He you know the politicians could make Kohl's softer will they are. They have the decisions in their hands. The government the parliament but they usually a traditionally they yield to public agencies and authorities and experts. We have a very long tradition of listening to the authorities and they are not politically appointed so there they should just follow the law and look at the facts and that's something that has been different in Sweden from our neighbors for example of public health authorities in Denmark. They were opposed to looking down. The borders public health. Authorities in Norway were opposed to shutting down the schools. They didn't think that would help them with. The health concerns the politicians. They had to do something to show that they were in Shauna whereas the Swedish politicians did. Didn't they listen to the Public Health Authority at but obviously it could be that they're using these experts as a bit of a fig leaf because they know what they WanNa do and then they list. They've they point to the health experts. Say That these this is on their advice. I think that this week prime minister as you say a trade union boss the Rehab Trade Unions and Social Democratic Party which is usually traditionally very pragmatic they. They're concerned with the economy. We're very export-dependent. In Sweden bound to suffer dramatically as other countries shut down and then they are probably thinking very long and hard on how not to hurt the economy even more the domestic Service Industry as well and I think that has figured prominently into their calculation. This is between the lawns on. Abc's Radio National and my guest is Johan Norberg senior fellow at the Cato Institute. Johann you just talking about the economy. Sweden has been getting a lot of tension in the New York Times Wall Street Journal. The Economist Various International Publications. Because it's apparently being able to protect its economy by staying relatively open. Is that your sense as well. Yes I think so. Relatively speaking We were always bound to suffer dramatically. We're a small country with around fifty percent of GDP is made up of experts so whenever they shut down we suffered tremendously But at the same time we've managed to keep the service sector a little bit more intact. It might be that we have our industry Could be up quicker up and running and then in the neighboring countries we get out of this situation. It seems like the last numbers from the European Union suggests that our economy suffers Just like the others but around one point. Five percentage points less than Europe as a whole so it might be that we've Gain something by having this more cautious policy it will we keep seeing pictures on. Tv of happy swayed socializing and drinking wine at APP outdoor cafes in Stockholm. We saw each other in light twenty seventeen or a lovely town. And when you look at these photos people really seem to be still having the time of the law. Is that what you're seeing in Stockholm today? I mean what's life like at the moment now? We're not really having the time of our lives right now when I go to central Stockholm it's it's kind of desolate and when I enter my favorite restaurants because I I wanna go there and support them when they're having a difficult time. I almost always one of the the only customers out there People do take walks so the parks and the our forests. They are filled up with people right now but we do not see the same activity when it comes to restaurants and bars and shops. I think that some of these pictures that I've seen they are. They're the same pictures that are doing the rounds. Hold the same. The same restaurants taking pictures from the same angle when that one mostly barren stalk from threes ago knows about trust I think is a very important issue because the public health officials say that Sweden does not need a mandatory lockdown. Because when I issue advised. I know that Swedes will follow it. That is you know. There's this cultural tendency towards this. Is Wally held overseas? And and Sweden has these high levels of trusting government. Would it be more difficult and more risky to employ a sweetie stall approach in the country with site lower levels of public? Trust in authority. Yes that's an interesting point. I recently looked at the mobility data from Google On a night compared Sweden Germany. Because I wrote for a German newspaper and it seemed like Sweden wasn't that far off when it comes to a reduction in mobility when it comes to public transportation retail and restaurants and so on even though Germany has a much much harsher Enforced policy so it seems like when our authorities. We didn't tell us to do social distancing voluntarily most Swedes abide by that and I think there is an argument to be made. At least. I've heard it from Italian friends that it wouldn't work in Italy or Spain to the same degree as since they don't trust their therapies. They come up with recommendations they just think that why. Why should we bother amount that we have this tradition of independent trust in Sweden and also trust in authorities ending in governments? So we might not need the same kind of enforcement rules and regulations as other populations Might not work everywhere and as we saw in initially in New York and bringing this back to the health aspect and the hospitals death rights. Really go up. When the hospital system is overwhelmed which means otherwise healthy people and younger people they kind of get on a ventilator so in order to make a decision like Sweden's they must be enormous confidence in Sweden's health system as well. Do you think the Swedish approach Johan work in a less wealthy countries signed India where there are only two point. Three acute care beds for a ten thousand people. The key question is how adaptable are you? How flexible can you be? Because Sweden didn't really have many hospital beds. Not many intensive care units per capita compared to many other countries but the healthcare system in Sweden has managed to rapidly. Rent this up We've doubled more than doubled. The A veil ability of intensive care units in just a couple of weeks and so we've always managed to have more capacity than patients in our healthcare system. And this seems to being the key argued that adaptable in that case. You can manage to do this if not you might need moral lockdowns to game sometime it. Won't we'll probably not in the long run because again I vaccine might take years. And you're bound to suffer from the second wave third wave and sewn but that might make it possible for you to gain some extra time To rent this up will in a very poor country like India Like sub Saharan Africa. That might not help at all. And that tells you something about how incredibly important it is. With the with the wealth the level of technology science and wealth that the modern world modern capitalism has has given us. That's really what saves in in everyday lives the civically in times of crisis. It's appropriate to hold you to account he because the last time you're on the show was in two thousand seventeen to mark the publication of your book on progress. Ten reasons to look forward to the future. Now your argument then was that. By any criteria food sanitation life expectancy poverty volumes. The environment literacy equality by any criteria. The world had become more prosperous. And you said it become more prosperous because it's embrace free markets and free tried. Let me put you on the spot. Yohannan say could the corona virus. Does that? Mean that you you now have second thoughts about your thesis. I really don't. I thought this a lot. And you have to do that when something. This devastating Huts you and huts. The woke does my optimism. Not Make any sense in this. Well well I think it does because being a rational optimist doesn't mean that you don't think problems will happen that we won't face any crisis. Mankind always has always will always faced pandemics other forms of crisis. My rational optimism is based on the idea that the accumulation of knowledge innovation of new technologies and the creation of wealth as makes it possible for us to deal with problems better than we have ever been able to do before right now. The world is screaming out for more ventilators but you know in the year nineteen fifty. It's not that far back. In world history we had a total number one ventilator on planet earth that technology is that new and now we can read the genome of the virus in a week but until nineteen ninety-five that has had never been done before and combine that with all the medical technologies the Internet. That makes it possible for researches drug companies health authorities to compare notes learn more from each other in real time and develop a new treatments. That really makes me an optimist. Despite all these problems it off it took mankind around three thousand years three thousand years to develop a vaccine against polio and smallpox. Now after just three months we have hundreds of potential drugs and vaccines entering clinical trials. And that tells you something we will always have condemn ix we always had in the pastas well but now for the first time. Thanks to free. It's modern technology globalization. Mankind has a fighting chance. Well on that optimistic note Johann thanks so much for being on the program again thank you so much for having me Johan Norberg. He's a senior fellow at the Cato Institute. It's a free market. Think tank in Washington and is the author of progress. Ten reasons to look forward to the future on in disease between the lines with Tom. Switzerland one of the consequences of our strained relations with China. Already clear isn't it will no longer rely on. China supply chains especially for critical medical equipment. Cameras hardly alone in questioning. China as a hub in vital supply chains the US Japan India. They also now desire to depend less on the Chinese market. This was a subject in a recent Wall Street. Journal article published by my next guest now to address this issue and what it means for broader us-led allied policy towards Beijing. Let's turn to Paula Dobriansky. She's a former. Us Under Secretary of State for global phase. These days ambassador. Dobriansky is a senior fellow at Harvard. University's billfish enter and vice chair of the Atlantic Council's scale Kroft Center for Strategy Insecurity Holiday Paulo. Welcome back to writing our national thank you. Hi Tom how are you great to be with you? Nelson just simply. What do you think China should no longer be treated as a hub in Supply Chines? Well it's fundamentally due to China's behavior and their are two primary reasons I long before the pandemic. We've witnessed Chinese behavior. That has not been driven fundamentally by commercial considerations but instead in which they've really used their position to benefit and advance their foreign and defense policies we've witnessed for example most recently Prime Minister Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison call for an investigation of the origins of the virus. And what is the response from Beijing as your foreign minister has said at the threat of economic version? Basically cutting off. We're GONNA cut off Australian beef. We're going to cut off Australia wide. So that's been fundamental reason but let me get the second and that is the second. Is that during this? Pandemic China has blocked manufacturers like him and Honeywell for example from exporting vital medical supplies. Here's no reliability. So the reason here is it's China's behavior and you'll sign obviously Australia's not alone. He just tell us about Japan Japan proposing well Prime Minister Ave hedge set in recent days that he was going to set aside two point. Two billion dollars from China's excuse me from Tokyo's Stimulus package and basically to use it to relocate its companies from China to Southeast Asia. But what's significant here by the way? Is that this process. Had really occurred about a year before the pandemic Japan Japanese companies already talking about moving out of China but it's been accelerated by China's behavior during the pandemic feeding here. How the United States reexamining its approach? It's important to note that in dealing with China he didn't prior to this current situation. There's really been a bipartisan consensus. In the United States that China is a strategic competitor and that China has really challenged. Us national security interests and it poses a threat and so that's the backdrop for the strategic backdrop relevant to this situation about reexamining supply chains from China. There's been a real focus on bringing manufacturing back to the United States. The head of the National Economic Council. Larry cudlow came forward and even with over the proposition of covering the cost of companies will come back to the United States. You're the ORTHODOXIES IN WASHINGTON. Have really been turned. He you think about that all the Nixon Cada Reagan Bush Clinton Bush Obama policy of engagement. That's been turned on its head. And so two has a notion of globalization. You know the Americans on the trump and this is a bipartisan position. As you say came to to really boost their manufacturing sick just to clarify here your argument than pull up. Guess Paula Dobriansky in Washington. Your argument is that the US and its partners in Asia should sit up. New Supply Chines restructured trade relations. Create this international economic. What that's less dependent on China? I get all that but what does this mean for security? What are the security implications? He well look economics is security. Security is not only about defense related issues and here Countries want to protect their own Foundation their own economic foundation. And what I am proposing in fact in in in the OP it appeared in the Wall Street Journal his kind of multilateral coalition of the willing approach that would align these kinds of trading ties with political insecurity relationships. Because again if you don't have a secure economic foundation it does impair an impact. Your security relationships and clearly what's happening? In Asia also has consequences it has consequences for our friends for partners and for our own involvement in the region from Beijing's perspective and Henry Kissinger is often argued it sometimes helps put ourselves in our opponents shoes and look at the wolf from their vantage point from Beijing's perspective that I would see this enlarged quad. The United States Australia India Japan possibly some other countries that you talk about such a South Korean Vietnam. Wouldn't the Chinese see that as a form of much is containment but even encirclement? How would you respond to those concerns? Let me let me take a moment if I may And and define. What the the. The quadrilateral security dialogue is and then what? I'm proposing and then respond. And and so. So first quadrilateral security dialogue was initiated by Japan's Prime Minister Up. Who was in position and back in two thousand seven so it got formed at that time and it is an informal strategic dialogue about security issues Among the United States Australia and at that time Australia's prime minister was John and then and then India and Japan so the four and in addition to the dialogue there's also a joint military exercise Which takes place. It's known as the Malabar exercises and that was formed in response to enhanced Chinese economic and predatory behavior and also it's significant investments and military power. So I I start by saying when you look at the origins of the quad. It was in response to China's own economic and especially its descent primarily in predominantly. It's dissents behavior. We know if the South China Sea island disputes That have occurred. We know various maritime kinds of incidents that have occurred. I could go on. So that's the origin Secondly let me be clear here. My proposal is that precludes security dialogue it should remain in the security context among the four. But what I propose is the quad. Plus we're the agenda should be broadened to include a dialogue about economic topics such as supply chains and in that context then have a discussion and bring in countries like South Korea. likes yet. Nam and also bring Taiwan into the discourse and basically because all of of these how good also impacted by behavior. But my my I want to be clear. I'm not saying that. The clause security component should be expanded movies countries in the quad and the broader region. Have Confidence in American Stang. Power in the United States is being locked down for the last two months at twenty six million employed. It's could be entering a new depression. Paula it reminds badly bruised off to these foreign policy setbacks in the. Middle East it's accumulating unsustainable level of is there a rule confidence in Asia about American Stein? Power Pula first of all. I see America's economy is spring back from this Our defense posture is very strong. But also of the forum that I mentioned Significantly the quad is one that has been elevated by this administration In this secretary of State held the first ever ministerial meeting In September of last year and also when President trump went to the on summit in two thousand seventeen all of the leaders and at that time it was. Australia's Malcolm Turnbull. They all reaffirmed our alliance so and then most recently in March only march of this year officials from the quad came together to discuss covert nineteen The Kobe nineteen pandemic and they were joined by and officials from New Zealand. South Korea Vietnam so yes. America has staying power. It's resilient economically and also our defense posture strong and it has already placed a premium on the importance of this quadrilateral security dialogue. And that's why they're only our discussions that are going more broadly within the dialogue and including other country. So yes there's Gang Tower. You can count on it. Invested a Paula. Dobriansky is a senior fellow at Harvard. University's bill for Senator and a former. Us Under Secretary of State for global as well. That's the program this week. I'm Tom Switzer the program next week.
The 'courage, power and persistence' of Wendy Sherman
"The the Cape up podcast sponsored by pharma where the one hundred forty thousand researchers with America's by pharmaceutical companies are finding new cures and treatments for diseases like hepatitis c. HIV and diabetes visit go boldly dot com. Wow. Hi, I'm Jonathan Kaye part and welcome to Cape up. Ambassador, Wendy Sherman comes back to the podcast to discuss her new book, not for the hand of heart lessons, encourage power and persistence. We talk about Trump the president in my view, really is not to be president of the United States McCain, whether you agreed with him or not. He and I disagreed specifically quite often. He certainly had courage and her mom, and so I had stereotyped my very own mother and not seen her in the fullness of what she was here. More of our conversations right now. Ambassador Sherman. Thank you very much for coming back to the podcast. I am thrilled to be here, Jonathan. Thank you for having me. So you were actually the second guest on Cape up. So I was thrilled when you said that you would come on on the podcast back in August of two thousand sixteen now it's twenty eighteen so much has had indeed I feel like it's been a lifetime actually. Can you believe what happened in the two years? Since we sat and talked, it's really is if someone, I guess it was Lawrence O'Donnell and MSNBC who was saying to Rachel Maddow. I need a new word for unprecedented because every day in every way we say, this is unprecedented. You know, I'm old enough to have lived through Watergate the Vietnam war, the violence that came during the civil rights movement and and the war, and. No, that will come out the other side, but a lot of people get hurt along the way and that is the part that so incredibly painful. I remember when we, when we talked you in your role as an ambassador and in the foreign policy fee world, you travel around the world, you've talked to our our, our allies and other people your counterparts in other countries, non ally and are not. Yes, exactly allies. And if I remember right, the number one question that came back at you was I think it was like, what are you guys thinking? Because that was during the campaign? What are you Americans thinking with this Republican at that point nominees, saying the things that he's saying, what are you hearing now that the nominee is now president of the United States and all of the things that he's done on the international stage. What's happened over these two years is that a lot of our allies and partners have stepped away from us. The president has isolated us from the rest of the world. And so they meet with him. They talk with him because we are the United States of America, and it's sort of hard to ignore us. But at the same time, they're going their own way. They're finding new alliances, new partners. And in the case of Europe, which is the most important ally we have. We do more trade with Europe than anywhere else as a block. We rely on them for everything from Afghanistan and NATO being there for us after nine, eleven in Afghanistan to working to really make sure that China plays by the rules of the international community. And instead we are really throwing them into the arms of China and Russia, even given the complex relationship they themselves have with both of those countries you. I. I NATO Canada, the European Union France, I guess basically any ally of the United States. The president has slapped him in one form or another. Meanwhile, Kim Jong UN Putin. You name the authoritarian or dictator, and he puts them in a bear hug. How are they allies of the United States viewing this do have they come up with a word for a new word for unprecedented or holy, holy smokes. You know, to be fair, they understand that some of the impulse that created Donald Trump here in the United States is an impulse they have in Europe as well. So we see countries like Hungary and the Czech Republic in Europe and Poland, a who have moved further to the right Austria has always. Been pretty far to the right. They live in a community with Turkey which is become more autocratic. Over the years. We had the Brexit vote where people in Great Britain where really responding to some of the same forces that are happening here in America where the gap between the rich and the poor. Really the rich in the lower middle class was growing and people said enough already, what about me? So they understand in some ways where this came from and obviously they have their own immigration challenges in many ways a tougher than ours. And yet they have not turned in the direction that America has turned. They have held on for the most part, maybe changed leadership as Macron was he created a party out of whole cloth, but nonetheless still staying within the established world order that has worked so well since World War Two. If you your answer to the last two questions, makes me wonder. Can the United States earn back. I was going to say, win back, but earn back the prestige that it's loss. I mean, if our allies are going their own way, my big fear has always been the allies go their own way realize, oh, we totally can do this by ourselves without the United States. And then the next president who comes in democrat or Republican who is back in the mold of being the leader of the free world might come back to a world stage where the world is like, hey, welcome. But we've got this there is that risk a my own hope is that if we can change our leadership in twenty twenty and in the first instance change the accountability mechanism by electing a democratic house of representatives in two thousand eighteen that there will be a return. The world is changing and there are multiple centers of power. We are not the only center of power anymore, but we are still the last remaining. Superpower today, and we are a country with values that are incredibly important in terms of freedom and democracy, and checks and balances and the right to assemble and to organize. And I think we can hold onto those values if we show the world that are people are going to respond that we're going to hold the president accountable in twenty eighteen and that we're going to reassess the leadership. We need in twenty twenty. You know, that reminds the number one word that popped into my head. As you were, you were responding was Helsinki. Tell me your reaction to that press conference in Helsinki between the president of the United States and the president of Russia was appalling. It was an embarrassment. You know Europeans who have dealt with Ukraine and out with the aggressive nature of Russia must have sat and watched and thought, oh my God, what what's happening here? I think that the only person who thought that was a good press conference was the president of the United States. And of course, flat Amir Putin who is just delighted every single day as he watches the divisions in our country and see us argue on every front, which just delights Putin, no end, you know, just occurred to me. I still to this day don't know what they talked about in in their private meeting or even in in their summit. You're in this work. World. Have you heard anything about what they discussed? No, only what they told us, you know, I would imagine the interpreter did share a debrief with appropriate people. I would hope that Hachinohe security advisor, at least I think what all of us all of this tells us Jonathan and really part of the reason that I wrote the book not for the faint of heart lessons in courage, power and persistence is that you have to persist. You can't give up to PLO. Masih is very hard work. It has to be tough. It has to be smart. It's gonna have twists and turns even when we fight a war as we did in World War One, which we thought was the war to end all wars within twenty years. We were fighting World War Two. So you take what's in front of you. You try to solve those problems. You try to make progress, you hope that it is enduring, but to ensure peace security and freedom. And. Bertie you have to be half courage. You have to understand the nature of power and you have to be ready to persist. And I want to come to the book those three words in particular, in your book going to ask you one more question before we dive in and then is, am I right to think that probably the most painful moment for you in this in the Trump years was when he announced that the United States was pulling out of the Iran deal. I was pretty tough. I wasn't surprised. He sort of telegraphed it was coming and once McMaster and Tillerson neither of whom I adored but were Lista adults in the room. As we say these days for the most part had left the administration. They'd really held onto the deal, letting him a, not certify it, but keeping the deal in place. But once they left and once he telegraphed he was going to throw. It wasn't a surprise. I was actually in Malta on that day and it was very sad, but it was most disturbing not for me, personally President Obama secretary, Kerry secretary Monis the team that worked on this deal so hard for so many years. It was most sad for the security of the United States of America and for the American people because the president had withdrawn with nothing to take its place. In the key thing here to to remind listeners reason why asked embassador Sherman this question is because you were the one you were the United States of America sitting across the table not only just from Iran, what is it? It's called the p five plus one and e you. Exactly. So the President Trump makes it sound like it was just the United States in Iran, and they hammered out this deal. And that's not the case. This was a glue. This was a global pact. This is a global pack that was endorsed by the United Nations Security council fifteen to zero by the general assembly. Overwhelmingly, this was a packed that p five or the permanent members of the Security Council. The United States, Great Britain, France, Russia, and China. The plus one was Germany because they had been engaged with the Europeans for over a decade trying to get a Ron to the table and the European Union had been mandated by the. Security Council, the High Representative of the European Union essence sort of their foreign minister to coordinate these talks. So yes, this was a multilateral international agreement. It could not have happened without the United States for a whole variety of reasons. But nonetheless it couldn't have happened without our partners either. I'm going to recommend that folks go back to Cape up episode number two to hear. Embassador Sherman, talk in more detail about the Iran deal right now. I want you to talk in detail about your new book as you said before, not for the faint of heart lessons encourage power and persistence. So I wanna take each of these words. You started. You started with persistence. Keep talking about that. How has persistence played in your life? In many ways. First of all, I'm a woman in Washington DC and national security and foreign policy. It is not an easy environment. There are more and more women in that arena, but it's been a tough go. Oh, and so there have been times along the way where I've had to sort of fight my way through and try to do it in a way that wouldn't burn me coming out the other side. And over time I've been able and privileged to be able to do extraordinary things because I've been given those opportunities. So I think that particularly for women in my field and in general, you have to persist and we obviously have the great example of Elizabeth Warren sitting on the dyas in the Senate, asking questions of Senator sessions are on the floor of the Senate and Mitch McConnell. The majority leader thinking it wasn't appropriate and she persisted and he said, and yet she persists as bad as if it's a bad thing, and that's really become a watchword. And I'm hopeful in these twenty eighteen midterms. We will see the result of that persistence there. May be one hundred women that are elected in this cycle. There are hundreds that are running both Democrats and Republicans more Democrats than Republicans, but both and that will be just extraordinary. But to make these enormous breakthroughs never come overnight. And clearly the most painful of all of this is getting a woman president of the United States. Hillary Rodham Clinton didn't make it a when Barack Obama did, and I think we were all incredibly grateful that America elected its first African American president, but it meant that the first woman president had to wait. And then when 2016 came, many of us believe that a variety of factors made it not possible for Hillary to get there including some factors that never should have happened. I don't think that then director Komi should have delivered his letter in October eleven days before. Or the election. I think that's stopped momentum that she had. It's not to say she didn't makes mistakes she did, and I think there were other issues that were outside of her control, but nonetheless, that was really painful that we did not elect the first woman president United States, and yet we must persist. Do you think we, we, we will ever elect a woman president of the United States. Of course, I do. I think that's the other thing the book tries to lay out, which is a certain optimism that yes, it's hard work. Diplomacy is not for the faint of heart politics or not for the faint of heart and every single day. Average Americans, ordinary Americans get up every day, go to work to ride a raise their families and the best way possible. And that's not easy either. So life is not for the faint of heart. But the good part is that there's joy along the way they're unexpected opportunities. If you're willing to take the risk to do them and great satisfaction, even when it's not enduring that perhaps for a period of time, you've created greater peace, greater prosperity and greater stability. So I'm going to read something from your book that is a bit persistence, but it's also it's also courage you, right. We know that men are told to push themselves forward while women are told to hang back. We worry when we are given more responsibility or more power, and too often, we still believe that we don't know enough, aren't skilled enough, aren't substantive enough to do what the job we are applying for requires as you're going for, you're reaching for. For the brass ring, the courage to reach for the brass ring and actually to believe in yourself. I think courage and confidence, which is what you're really talking about here are absolutely critical and on the confidence side of things. Indeed, there's a Hewlett Packard study that I referred to in the book that shows that men believe when they apply for a job. If they have sixty percent of the qualifications. That's good enough. They'll either bullshit their way pardon me through the rest of it, or they'll learn it along the way. Women believe that they have to meet every qualification before they take the job. And quite frankly, there have been times in my life where I've been asked to do things, and I've even wondered, well, can I do this? And then I think about what I've accomplished in my life so far. And I say, what? What is holding me back? How ridiculous is this? You know, just go for it and surround yourself with a support group. Every place I've worked. I've surrounded myself with a support group of women in particular, but some great guys to who can help me along the way and make sure I succeed. And on the days when I wonder whether I know what I'm doing, I have colleagues that I can turn to to regain my confidence to go forward. But that confidence is a little different than courage because courage which we certainly discussed over the last days. I know you'll probably have this podcast out a little bit later, but over the past days, we've had the funeral of John McCain, and whether you agreed with him or not, he and I disagreed the seriously quite often. He certainly had courage. I don't know that I would have had the courage he did to stay in the Hanoi Hilton even after I was given the possibility of leaving it and under the torture that he went through and in my own life early on my father who is in residential, real estate was challenged by his rabbi. Through a Russia Sean sermon that people can read about in the book to advertise open housing. In those days, there were no open housing laws, and he said to the rabbi, if I do that, I'll lose my business and the rabbi said, will you ask me what you could do? This is what you can do. And he and my mother decided to do it and within a short period of time in low sixty percent of his business, he was willing to pay the cost. He never looked back. He changed the history of residential real estate and open housing in Baltimore City. The Baltimore Orioles came to him when they traded for Frank Robinson and asked him to find a place for Robinson to live. So he became a place of sort of go-to guy, and he found ways to take his business forward. But after a few years, he had to close his business and find other opportunities. So courage is about being willing to pay the cost and hard things usually don't come without a cost. And we are unfortunately seeing these days here in Washington, not much courage. You know, of course, I instantly think of Colin Kaepernick when you were telling this story about your father and Nike is just put out this ad that the tagline, I can't remember the beginning of the tagline, I can't remember, but the second half of it I can in and it's, you know, when you have everything to lose in can argue, he's lost everything by standing up for for principal that's been distorted by the president, not to get too far afield. But are you, are you heartened? Are you encouraged by the kind of activism that we've seen around the country and that we've seen from Colin Kaepernick who, again, NFL star who hasn't worked since he knelt on the field? Indeed, I, I am very heartened by the activism I'm. Heartened by the activism of the parkland kids who are running all over this country registering registering voters. And one of the things they did. I thought that was so inspiring is they went to Chicago where there are gun deaths daily and the folks who are organizing their the young people who are uniting their don't get a lot of attention and the parkland kids knew they could bring press into that room. And so they linked arms with young people in Chicago and gave them a lift for their fight for understanding that the parkland tragedy was horrific in Florida, but that the this community, these communities in Chicago face that violence and that gun violence every single day, and nobody seemed to pay attention. So that kind of activism is marvelous. The women's March after Trump was elected, was marvelous and more important than that, all of the women who are running for office as a result of it. So. So yes. And I think the debate about press freedom toughest, that is of the freedom to say, what you think what Colin Kaepernick said and did is very crucial to the values of our country. We see beta aerobic who is fighting for folks right to take a knee if they think that is the way to protest best there. 'cause is getting a lot of attention whether he'll win or not, we'll find out. But yes, I think there are indeed people who do have courage in this country. What I was most referring to was unfortunately a lack of courage here in Washington by the Republicans, in particular on Capitol Hill who really just want to win their midterm elections. And maybe after the midterms will see a change in this town. I certainly hope so. The Cape up podcast is sponsored by pharma where the one hundred forty thousand researchers with America's bio pharmaceutical companies are finding new cures and treatments for diseases like hepatitis c. HIV and diabetes. So here's to the fearlessness to fail. So success can follow and the patients helping to find the breakthrough that might say their lives and perhaps one day yours, welcome to the new era. Medicine were together. We go boldly the message from America's by pharmaceutical companies, visit go boldly dot com. Given the vociferating. Conversations you had had with now the late Senator, John McCain, Republican, Arizona, part of the firmament of the Republican party given that relationship. But you know of him, are you as shocked and appalled by the Republican party as it is today in terms of not holding the president accountable, not standing up for not only American values, but the values of the liberal, democratic small d order that the United States helped to create and maintains assuming we still maintain it for more than seventy years. Absolutely. It's incredibly distressing. I noticed yesterday that a strong bipartisan group of senators have now suggested that US NATO headquarters in Brussels be renamed the John McCain. NATO center, which I think is a tremendous tribute. He was a great advocate for NATO, very critical to its development and to its funding and a belief in our military and the good it can do around the world. So there are moments of that kind of understanding about that. We are a the United States of America. We aren't just Democrats and Republicans. We actually are Americans who have a sense of who we are as a country, but that clearly is in some distress right now to say the least and my guess is after the midterms, we will have more accountability, but it will be an even tougher time in some ways because there will be even greater division for a while. And I think we just have to go through this period and I hope and I trust and I believe we will come out the other side. I'm gonna bring you back to what you were talking about at the beginning of the car. Orage portion of this conversation where you're talking about how you surround yourself with a support network people you can turn to. How hard is it to ask for help. I think it's hard for all of us men and women to ask for help. But I've learned along the way that it doesn't say about me anything other than I simply don't know about something I can remember when I started as then congresswoman, Barbara Mikulski chief of staff. I was a bit of an idiot because I hadn't been in Washington before, and people kept on talking about dear colleague, this and dear colleague that had no idea what they were talking about. It took me a month before I finally asked people what the heck were they talking about? And of course it is a dear colleague letter. When you want other members of congress to sign onto something you are sponsoring as a piece of legislation. You send a letter out to all of your members of congress, and it starts dear colleague. So you know, it was a good lesson for me to stop being so silly and simply because I didn't need to spend a month a trying to. Show. I knew what I was doing. I could've simply asked it was a perfectly right on question. Another thing that I, I saw in the book and this isn't so much courage as it is sort of leading by example or living by example, you wrote about how you and other women from the hill would get together monthly. I can't remember if it was Chinese Italian and Chinese takeout and you at one point decided like I'm going to have a family. You got pregnant and you write about how another woman in the group after you did it. She felt comfortable to start a family herself. He talk more about that and it just sort of the power of living by example. Sure. I, I think we all are very grateful when we see someone breakthrough do something we always wanted to do, but never quite had the courage or confidence. To do, and that is something that we can offer to each other just in the same way. I mean, you know, Jonathan here in Washington, in particular, there is a boys club writ large and folks are very tight, and the guys club make look out for each other. And if a job comes open, they recommend each other for that job. Women are behind the curve in that way. Sometimes guys, particularly these days when they feel like they have to show that they are open, recommend a woman for a job, but we need to do that for each other. And we need to insist that men do it for us as well. It is something that is critical, and I've been very lucky whether it is Hillary Clinton or Barbara mcculskey or Madeleine, Albright or Nancy Pelosi. These are all women who really broke barrier. There's long before the women of today and each of them in their own way, found a way to get that leg up. And I've been very lucky to watch what they've done learned from them, work with them, and hopefully I'm now bringing along other women. I, if a woman asked to meet with me or send me an Email, I may not be able to offer much time, but I will always answer. I do that for guys to, but I make women my priority and when Madeleine Albright was UN ambassador, she would always take the calls of the women UN ambassador. I think at the time it was an incredibly small group. I think it was only like eight and one of her colleagues at her. Why don't you always take my calls? And she said, well, as soon as your country nominates a woman to the UN's I will answer take their call I too. So you have to do some things that show your. To help people along when I give speeches usually, and there's a QNA which I really love. I think it's the best part. There's never situation except an all women's audience. When the first hand up is a guys. And then usually the next hand up is a guys. And after the fourth question I stop and I say, okay, there are a lot of women here. I know you have bright things to say. I know you were sitting there thinking about things. I'm not going to continue until somebody offers a comment or ask the question. You have to do these things to encourage a women and people who may be reluctant to come forward. I'm going to have to try that because I'll I will do events and it's time for a QNA and there might be African Americans in the audience and I see them there, but they're not asking questions. Maybe I should record scratch and say, all right, you over there. Yes, I think it's important for you and I and everybody who speaks to hear a diversity of us and you can't do that. If the same crowds, always the one asking the questions. So let's talk about power like power, you know, I know one of the great stories you tell in the book and you said in in the interview that we did two years ago and it has stuck with me because it just sends chills down my mind. What ambassador Albright said to you think was something like you. You can fill in in in this part. I get wrong, but it was something like Wendy. When you are sitting at that table, you're no longer, Wendy Sherman. You are the United States of America. Indeed, you know, people always ask me what it's like being a woman negotiating and I always refer to what. Former Secretary. Albright taught me which is exactly that that I'm not Wendy Sherman. I'm not a woman. I'm not in my case in American Jew, which is interesting. When you sit across from marines, I am the United States of America. And if you understand the power of being United States of America, it's really quite something and quite useful. It's not to say that all the other characteristics of me don't matter. They do my having silver hair helps quite frankly as a woman. Then when I was a younger woman, people take me more seriously than younger women probably get taken even if they're smart and capable and experienced. So all of those things do matter. And you should understand those dynamics and make use of them. But when you're negotiating the United States of America, it is a very powerful thing. Let's go. The book starts. I believe the book starts here where. Secretary Clinton. She's putting her team together, I think. And you find out that the under secretary of state for political affairs is open. You throw your hat in the ring. You have an initial call and then things go dark. And then you hear back and then you're sitting in front of Cheryl mills. And then what comes out in the conversation. It's a little bit further into the book, but it's really important. Cheryl basically says to me, that issues have been raised about whether I'd be a team player. And as we had the conversation I thought underneath that was too aggressive, too assertive, too tough, which I think every strong woman, here's along the way. And what surprised me so much about it was Cheryl and secretary Clinton had been called all those things themselves too tough too difficult to assertive, too strong as if those things don't matter in the kinds of jobs that they did. And I thought the origin of this might have been when I was assistant secretary for legislative affairs under Bill Clinton. And quite frankly, it's a hard job because the people at the State Department don't like you because you won't let them go to Capitol Hill anytime you want. They want because their priorities may not be the president's priorities or the secretaries priorities. And the hill doesn't like you because they can't reach into the building and get anything they want except going through you. Now people cheat all the time. Don't get me wrong, but nonetheless, I thought, well, maybe that's where it came from. I don't know to this day exactly what it is and we got through it, and I became the first woman under secretary for Luke fares, and I'm very, very. I'm grateful to secretary Clinton into Cheryl for their support. I think I automatically got there because Bill burns who had been the under secretary is about to be deputy secretary. You know, the diplomats diplomat was really the master foreign service officer in negotiator the State Department, and I'd worked with him during the Clinton ministration spoke up for me and having validates particularly the person who did the job before and did it well is important, but I wanna be humble about this too. I did the same thing that I felt was being done to me to my mother when my mother died. She had been in real estate herself late in life. She had started to sell condos in Baltimore, and I'd always thought of her as competent and capable, but not as a rockstar, my father was the rockstar, and her funeral was filled with hundreds of people and ne. Only people her own age, but young people and it turned out my mother had been the mentor for all these young real estate agents who looked to her to be their teacher. And so I had stereotyped my very own mother and not seen her in the fullness of what she was, and we all need to stop and make sure that we don't stereotype people that we don't. You know, she'd always been my mom and I needed to see her in the fullness of what she was. And so I think that was an important lesson for me taught me in part by that job interview process, but also my own humble experience. So you also had a meeting after you met with Cheryl mills about the job. You then had a one on one meeting with secretary Clinton at her home here in Washington, and she brought up the, hey, you know you to assertive your to this. What was that like for you? Well, she basically brought up some of the same concerns about whether I was a team player, which I thought was code for too tough to assertive too strong. And I gave her the same answers. I'd give into chairman, you have to take this very seriously. Clearly someone or someones have said this to her, and I left that interview still not knowing whether I was going to get the job and you know, I think in those circumstances, the best you can do is be as perfectly honest as you can be, and as forthright as you can be, and you know here in Washington, Jonathan, applying for these very high powered very important jobs is a blood sport, so you do the best you can and then it either will happen or not, and I'm I'm grateful to the folks who came to support me. So in all of your experience, then what would you say is the number one rule for wielding power. I think the number one rule is to know yourself to be authentically who you are to not be afraid of being who you are. So both the downside and the upside when I met Warren Christopher out of the blue, I got a call what I come see. Warren Christopher. I was a partner in a democratic media consulting firm at the time. I wondered what Warren Christopher who is going to be Bill Clinton's. First secretary state wanted to do with me. I hadn't a clue. So I went to see him when Martin Luther King's birthday, and he said, you know, if the president agrees, I'd like you to be the assistant secretary for legislative affairs, and I said to him. If you want someone who knows everything there is to know about foreign policy, national security. I'm probably not the right person. I know enough. I've run political campaigns. My husband writes about all of this. We talk about it. I I know something, but if you want someone who understands Washington, maybe I'm the right person, and he decided obviously with the president and I was nominated to be the assistant secretary. So you have to be straightforward about who you are and who you're not and have enough confidence in yourself to then us who you are and what you are, too good purposes and to good ends. Power is not a bad thing in and of itself. It's how you use it that makes it good or bad. Then what would you say is the the number one mistake people make when wielding power? I think probably the number one mistake is to either over. Assert it or under assert it. We all know young people who go to work on Capitol Hill and get Potomac, fever, they forget the only reason people return. Their phone calls is because they represent someone who does have power. And I remember when I ran campaign eighty eight at the Democratic National Committee for Michael Dukakis in September, everybody took my phone calls by October. Nobody took my phone calls because they thought this was a losing campaign. So you know, don't understand the limits of power what you have, but also what the limits are have enough humility about it and then you can be very effective. And I guess the other thing that's really important is that when you're doing negotiations, whether that's personally or in a work situation, as I did in negotiations with Iran, don't feel like you have to take everybody else's power away from them. If we had taken all the power away from the Iranians a, we wouldn't have a deal, but we wouldn't have a deal because they wouldn't have been able to make a door -able back in Tehran. So you have to leave the people at the table with enough power to make real, what you all are trying to achieve together. I can't leave you without asking you about the intense parlor game that's happening. Now trying to figure out who's anonymous, who is this person who wrote the piece for the New York Times op-ed page, a senior administration official according to the New York Times wrote a piece that basically said, don't worry America. We are subverting the president's worst impulses and we're, we're, we're, we're hanging in there and we're holding it together. Just your when you saw that this came out, what was your reaction? Well, my reaction was many things as it has been for a lot of people. One that person was telling us something we all knew. I was just one more validation that things were pretty crazy in the White House and that the president in my view really is not fit to be president of the United States. I I've said that publicly, so I don't mind saying it again, but I do wish this person had had the courage to do it for threat Louis because to do it this way is to have everybody become obsessed with what they've become obsessed with, which is finding out who it is as opposed to addressing the substance of what was said. And for me the most important way to deal with the substance of what was said by this anonymous op-ed in Bob Woodward's book in what others have said. Including fire and fury, and I'm Rosa's book. Craziest. Both of those books are. All of it has the same ring to it. And so the most important thing in my view is for everybody to register to vote, get out and vote at least turn the House Democratic, if not the Senate, so that there can be some accountability so that we can move forward and really hold the administration's feet to the fire for what they're doing. One of the most painful things of all of the painful things we all have watched. I started life as a social worker. I consider that I'm still a social worker, but my caseload has changed along the way and my organizing skills have just been used to organize different things. But when I saw children separated from their parents without any system put in place up front to reunite them when we still months later have little children some under the age of. Five, these children will be traumatized for effort. Their families and brothers and sisters will be traumatized forever. Their parents will be bereft forever. And for me when this happens, and now the administration is extensively seeking to have long-term detention of these children. We don't have a foster care system that can handle American children very well. And these children deserve to be with their parents. So when these things happen, we should be focused on that and solving those problems and creating that accountability not searching for you know, whereas Wanda. And that's it. Our Wendy Sherman former under secretary of state for political affairs, senior counselor at the Albright Stonebridge group, and now author of not for the faint of heart lessons encourage power and persistence. Thanks for coming back. Thank you, Jonathan. Thanks for listening to Cape up tune in every Tuesday. You can find us on apple podcasts and Stitcher, and how about doing me a huge favor subscribe rate and review us. I'm trying to think k. part of the Washington Post, you can find me on Twitter at Cape heart, Jay. If you like Cape up Jonathan, Cape art, usually check out some of our other great podcasts. Like, can he do that a podcast that explores the powers and limitations of the American presidency or try the daily to twos? Big idea a show that brings you daily analysis from political correspondent James Holman. You can find these shows anywhere you listen to podcasts and learn more online at Washington Post dot com. Slash podcast. The Washington, Washington flashing post.
Ep 36: Faith-shaped holes in the Equality Act
"This month marks the tenth anniversary of the coming into force of the equality act 2010 a landmark legislation the dramatically reformed and improved the laws on equality in the UK last month to mark this anniversary the national secular society released a report that examined the exemptions which religious organizations have succeeded in carving out of the equality act for themselves. It also looked at the negative consequences of these exemptions in the areas of employment education and cost discrimination in this podcast. I will be speaking to baroness Lynne Featherstone a liberal Democrat peer champion of equality legislation and former minister with responsibility for equality in the coalition government jobs will be discussing her experiences of getting the equality Bill through Parliament the opposition she encountered from religious groups and the ongoing problems today caused by religious exemptions to the ACT. I will then be joined by Megan. Some to give the NSS has perspective. Lynne Featherstone, you were an empty during the passage of the equality act 2010 and as a home office Minister and as under secretary for a qualities under Theresa May when she was Minister for qualities, you help to take the enabling legislation through Parliament did the equality act feel like a landmarc at the time yet. It did. I supposed to Bringing together fourteen years of equality legislation that was confusing everybody and not working that well and I thought it was a huge step forward wage, which obviously it happened under the labor government before we became the the Coalition and I led to the liberal Democrats during its passage and it brought together in there was a 35 apps 52 statutory instruments 13 codes of practice sixteen EU directives, and they weren't working. So it was a landmark piece of legislation that brought it. It together and it him pointed things, you know, if you look you look at something like equal pay we clearly haven't got equal pay them. We still don't have equal pay now but it attempted to bring together those things and to enhance equality. It wasn't just the bringing together of all this disparate legislation. So, I mean, there are so many examples but I think one of its own qualities was the public sector equality Duty and the creation of protected characteristics and those are protected characteristics what age disability gender reassignment. I had many many arguments in committee about the word reassignment because I felt it meant you had to have an operation before someone recognized that you needed different sort of protection for gender identity. It also included marriage and civil partnership pregnancy and maternity race religion or belief dead. Sex and sexual orientation and I suppose even way back then I didn't really feel that religion and belief should be per month protected characteristic but that's a whole other argument. So it was landmark and it was the culmination of all the years of fighting and trying to bring some sense of ending discrimination in all its forms, whatever the characteristic you have the list of protected characteristics. So it was it was a product of the committee wage and no no the next to protected characteristics was part of the legislation brought forward by the then labor government. I remember at the time and speaking in the second reading debate when I left the libdems. I think it was 2009 that religion of relief should not actually be a protected characteristic because it would lead to be entrenchment of discrimination. When you are in government in the Coalition and working with Theresa May where you on the same side about most of the equalities issues then on and off but yes, I would say that Theresa. May was basically determined to enact the bill. The one of the biggest differentials we had was actually not all religion and belief. It was on pay audits on women's pay but time lives on in politics and your positions change in don't always get what you want choice just took a bit more about religion and belief now when you and others were bringing the new bill before Parliament who are the people who wanted religion and belief a to be protected characteristic and then be later to have special exemptions in relation to religious organizations. Well, basically the organized great religions of the world but in New Jersey, Here the Church of England and the the Catholic religion. They were very fist about well also and Muslims and Orthodox Jews, but they wanted exemptions so that they could continue to discriminate in terms of who they employ. For example. I felt that the new act reduced their ability to discriminate and when I say discriminate that would be something like if a Catholic School wanted to employ caretaker, they would like it to be a Catholic caretaker where it's obviously in the provision of goods and services as was included in the ACT active or there was nothing about caretaking that you needed to be a Catholic. Obviously. It was understood that if you were going to be a priest you needed to be a Catholic if you were proselytizing but if there was a Job saying yep. Worker or as I say a caretaker, then they didn't need however, that was a very very Fierce fight and they want and how come they want just because the exemption was there that allowed them to say for example with a youth worker but a youth worker was teaching in their life or it with proselytizing and therefore they should be able to discriminate and only have a Catholic youth worker working with Catholic news outside education. What were the other major exemptions that religious the major religions obtained to the equality act schools were Exempted say that religious schools could be set up without breaching the page for me and I bought the national secular society is putting forward quite rightly in my view is to change that law so that state-funded religious schools including the Church of England dead. Will no longer be able to promote the interests of their religious body above the education and where welfare of their pupils then there's also there are two schedules in the apology act which were there to stop a conflict with early indoors that imposed basically Christian worship in all state schools, including non-religious ones. And again, I agree with national secular society and removing the imposition of collective Worship in schools. I remember for example that at my primary school there were seven Jewish children who had to sit in the library during prayers in the morning and it made them different. In fact, I was one of them and it's probably were the age of seven. I told my parents I wasn't going to be Jewish anymore because I felt so alienated and different and I think that's what Collective worship. Other parts of the Act made exceptions to allow the existence of religious schools and lastly on education. There were two schedules with there ought to schedule such allow schools to discriminate on religious grounds for entry into that school. And I can't remember which were added in which were carried forward. But either way they act needs changing so that you should not be able to discriminate in terms of on religious grounds for entry into that school. And and though there's been lots of accommodations where you're allowed X percentage here in X percentage there. The practice is is how long do you think that the public have generally aware of the importance of their quality act and what it can and can't do well. I'm I'm certain they're not aware of the details of the app coming. It's a very long and a very complicated act but I think just as with the human rights laws people seem to because of the way of it's just course in the public spaces become about human rights as sort of an excuse for anything as it is with the equality ACT people seem to think it's dead. To be used efficiently to for people to take people to tribunals endlessly on Tiny points and not realizing that it's actually holding people's rights to live their lives. I mean, of course it gets abused on both sides, but I think the public did have a real concept of what this protection has done. The other side of legislation is often down to the Quality Inn. In this act by the message. It sends out that equality is something that gives you rights that you cannot discriminate and so on and so forth and how that becomes part of our nation seats into it, but it's not often propagated by some of our media. Did we think the media at fault for misrepresenting the equality? Well I come from a point to specific details. But yes, I think the media are often that formed in using as a highlight something that is the truth, but misuse wage. Took everything depends in that specific way, but it was an incredibly important piece of legislation to stop the sort of thing that I've I grew up with when I first went to work and was sacked from my first job for not sleeping with one of the directors. Do you think the existence of the me-too movement in recent years that suggests that the equality act didn't go far enough in protecting women against sexual harassment in the workplace. Yes, and I think that's very classic in this much of legislation gives you the laws to protect you but getting to the point of court and getting it to be taken seriously as a whole other country where Society has to shift but you do see societal shift when long-term made eventually if you think about the drunk driving laws when you know, everyone used to drink and drive when I was at College, not me obviously but Avengers A society saw because the law was there that it was it was terrible people would be irresponsible in killing other people saying with wearing a seatbelt that was resented same with the laws around LGBT issues, but marginally once the law was in place in society shifted and occasionally as the other way round. Of course, I was the boss contacting the originator of the same sex marriage law which encountered a lot of the religious resistance the same as the equality Act In that case the people were ahead of the politicians but because in a way the religious fraternity is strong in our country. It took a long time for it to get into law. But now it is I you know, no one blinks 19 that's a very interesting point you make about religious resistance also to the same-sex marriage bill out of the major religions influence legislation in Parliament. Well, the key points of influence in Parliament are are the fact that this is the queen leaves his head of the Church of England and the religions have always had a very powerful voice in Parliament through Through the parties but also Bishop sit in the House of Lords as of by right but their organizations are profoundly respected and rightly say when they have faith in my view on Jew influence and have had for many years. Would you say that particularly if they're equally influential on all MPS and all parties would you say some parties are more liable to be influenced by religious figures than others. Well, of course the conservative party has always had a very very close relationship with the church of England in particular. I think everyone listens with respect to the religious argument, but someone like myself believes that religions deserve Freedom respect our freedom to practice but there are so many parts of the religious doctrine that crossed with secular life or with nondiscrimination whether it's around homosexual. T or educating children or those sorts of things. Is it also the case that it's it's one thing to allow people to express their religious belief in another thing to say that their religious beliefs should be allowed to influence what other people who don't share them can do. Yes. Yes, of course it is. I mean, I'm a live-and-let-live wrong and I really don't see that you should seek to influence beyond your religion and I have never understood. I mean there was such a huge issues around schools, you know, in in fact, I was in Birmingham was the most recent example when sex and relationship lessons were to be taught and there was a huge outcry but I've never understood why parents cannot say to their children if their religion believes that homosexuality for example is a sin because that's one that keeps coming up and up over the over the edge. And why a religious family would not face their child. We believe this is a sin other people think other things and we must respect everybody and off and religious tenets to be strong enough to guide their children the way they hope they will be guided but it shouldn't be something that stops people from knowing Religion different about a stooping people knowing about things but they are strong strong Fighters and they say during the same sex marriage passage of that. The religions the great religions of the war world fought tooth-and-nail for it not to happen. They believed would undermine marriage. Of course, it does no such thing. It's it showed how valuable marriages for everybody one particular issue that's continued since 2010 was caste discrimination. Now the equality act introduced them for a minister to say the cost should be included on the list of protected characteristics and thereby outlawed course discrimination. Now the present government have committed to actually remember using this protection from the ACT. What's your view about cost discrimination past was a huge issue during the passage of the monthly bill and I was it lobbied intensely from both sides of the issue. But to me, the car system is discrimination. That is that there is fundamental. Character and of course like all the religions that have come to the United Kingdom because we are still are tolerant and free country imported with different waves of immigration has been the caste system that came with it and I was a minister in the department for International Development for two years back. I saw classed and its practice and the horror of the status of lower-caste despised and mistreated and it is intensely still felt. I remember the arguments about how we I was interfering in a system that had been there and it worked very well and it meant that's had the order of things but it's just totally against equality is fundamentally against your quality and it is and should be a crime to discriminate on the grounds of past wage. The NSS has recently released a report just in September 2020 about how religious privilege in many different ways continues to undermine the quality law even today and get that reporters Faith shaped holes how religious privilege is undermining equality law you then wrote the forward to this report? What were your reasons for doing? So well first off they invited me to do so, but it is a passion that I have as a liberal. I believe Live and Let Live should be the basis on which we conduct ourselves in this world. I also feel that many of the problems of the world stem from religion, you know growing up. I understood it was a force that was supposedly about love and forgiveness and charity and kindness and then when I woke up I found it was also the basis of War deprivation unfairness and guilt. So it seems to me that when it comes to issues such as abortion alcohol homosexuality employment sex education the great organized religions of or like want to have the benefit of our phenomenal equality laws. So long as they don't have to comply with anything they don't subscribe to so they want to have their cake and eat it. They definitely do want to have their communities and you know, as I said during the passage of the same sex marriage will I was often the target of death threats and disparaging attacked from the religious order of my response to those who say violently attacked me and the legislation and who are often the heads of the great organized religions of our world was to use the words advised to me by staying home which were my very strong advice to those who do not agree with same-sex marriage is not to marry someone of the same set. Yep. That sounds like a a good response birth. In in terms of the issues raised in the National secular society report the link Hydro children from knowledge. You tell them you're their parents and took the meat but they agree with you. They'll follow you and in this country where we live and hope to live in harmony with each other, whatever our belief system whatever our particular protected characteristics and some of us have lots of everyone is equal and should be treated equally in all sorts of ways the key principle of secularism in particular is that any form of unfair religious privilege should not undermine the rights and freedoms of others. So this is this is always a question about balancing everyone's right to freedom of religion and beliefs against the possibility that that some people may exploit their position to unfairly affect others. Now as far as the NSS report is concerned the three main ways which it identified there's still a probe. With the current equality legislation are in terms of cost based discrimination, which we've talked about education which you mentioned briefly Faith schools and also employment for you. What is that still the biggest issues in these areas, which need to refer the reform. I do think that some of the exemptions that were in the equality acne reform because the Republicans I fear of using them to only employ people of that particular Faith within there within their Circle, so that is one thing that needs reforming off another is I don't think I really don't think that Collective worship should be something In schools, I just don't think so. I think it is better for schools to have a morning assembly talking about life in general or the news or what's going on in school. I don't think it should be any form of religious worship because as I described for my own experience as a child, you don't want to alienate any group to feel one game is the main group or the more important group or that your your group doesn't matter. You're faced it off to the library While others have offended me. So I think it's very important to remove Collective worship from schools with this been argument for getting rid of faith-based State schools altogether. This guy is beyond what the national secular society are suggesting or indeed what the liberal Democrats of which plan the member have US policy, but on a personal capacity, I would love there to be that that schools are about education and home is about religion wage. Faith, I don't think schools are the appropriate place for it. But that's not where this report is going at this point. It's trying to remove some of the very overt way samples of where the exemptions to the equality act have been labeled religious exceptionalism. But my view is that anything that is state-funded should not really include religion of any sort. It should certainly teach all religions in in in religious instruction class or religious education rather not instruction class. If you look what separateness does it creates alienation and mistrust or superiority as I said, I worked in Africa for two years when I was different Ministry and I did spend part of every week mostly in Africa and what I learned there what I saw there that any difference state-sponsored birth That your power or status or whatever caused dispute and unhappiness, whether it was tribal religious ethnicity. It didn't matter what the difference was off the minute you entrench it in some in some form of privilege for State sanctions. It causes Wars jealousy one up shit. It doesn't you know, it just is not harmonious and you know, it's not that long ago since the troubles in Northern Ireland finally came to a blessed. Excuse me. So the whole point of the equality act as far as your concern is just to give the best chance for people of every single belief or no believed to flourish in to work together. I do believe that. They also think it is to stop the harms that are so in our base human nature that make us discriminate and it's to help us. Being discriminatory because it is now against the law as you say, you know, we can see in there many different societies throughout history if the laws encourage a certain form of behavior than a society goes in that direction. So if they encourage a more discriminatory form of behavior, then people will perhaps feel like it's more normal. Whereas if they encourage greater tolerance than our society it may help push Society in a more tolerant direction. We live in the hope that that is what happens because you can see what happens when it goes the wrong way. So I think it is very important. I think the equality act reminds us of our Humanity towards each other finally then what are the immediate practical steps. You think that need to be taken to get a job. I called inequalities that we've been discussing. We need some new laws that will at this stage in terms of what the national secular society is is one that will deliver legislatively the changes that removed the exemptions that enable the entrenchment of religious privilege then. Thank you very much. I'm joined Now by Meghan Thursday and from the national secular society and she's going to give a comment on my interview with bonus Lynne Featherstone in particular to talk about what the NSS is positioned is on unfair religious nationalism and the current state of the quality law and What needs to change make and to start with talking about the NSS report which just recently came out about the issue of religious except home. And equality law, could you just clarify? What are the main things that the report said about what needs to change in the current state of the law. So foolish report what we both wanted to do was to explore where these as we call them face shapes holes are in the the quality at Winterton. So religion or belief is a particular track sick and so in theory and everyone should be protected by that because belief does include quite specifically normally just believe and so we basically took a deep dive into the quality acting looked for where there are religious Exceptions. There are lots of lots of exemptions in equality act some are Justified but many others are not home. And we wanted to do is look for those religious exemptions that were potentially causing problems. And we found three areas where it seems the most egregious which were in education regarding cost based discrimination and wage employment. So what we did was we actually looked fairly specific parts of the law that does this. I think this is the first report of its kind to really do that to really look at the facts. Second is behind that caused these exemptions and regards to education there were multiple exemptions. So as you've heard from them Featherstone Collective worship and discrimination in admissions is all enabled guy and it's actually quality act these exemptions enabled as schools to deliver an exclusive faith-based curriculum that they allow them to discriminate against staff wage employment and they even allow local authorities to apply discriminatory criteria. We're in their courses for school transport. So basically I learned to the phone number You can provide free transports to somebody who is attending a faithful and then the cast cast it doesn't have a six characteristic. Although many were arguing during the formation of the concept of it. There is an a unconnect duty within the quality acting make casts and explicit aspect of discrimination and as soon as practical however more choice either government to the subject was against do that and the Parliamentary under secretary for the mystery qualities Kenney Baden office confirms that basically they want to take cast out completely so essential nothing there protecting people available for this particular form of discrimination. So in terms of employment is of course another issue, which was also raised by Lynne Featherstone. I mean, do you have anything to add in terms of birth assist discovered about how religious exemptions affect employment looking for you have what's called genuine occupational requirements that do you allow you to assuage It discriminates on equality particular particular characteristics. If you need to let us visit lots of fun times, we might need to do this and with religion or belief discrimination. There are some legitimate I'm off example, I think it's actually reasonable to specify that. If you want to be a vehicle that you have to Christian going to be past or you have to be a Christian but looking at the official explanatory notes. It looks like this exemption is the general population of kind of exemptions only meant to carry a very narrow range of employment and it comes to religion but we think that it's about being applied what will broadly to that and it's been refused and being used by religious employers essentially only have a Workforce of one religion when there's really no justification. Right? And that seems like like quite an abuse of the system then potentially. Yeah, I think so. Yes. That's so it really works to see that looked in person and basically terrified so we went dead. When can you do this? Because I think at the moment it's been overused in terms of religious exceptionalism and unfair privilege, which is still in the quality law or inherent in the system at the moment. Do you have any particular concrete examples of how this affects people the things we wanted to demonstrating? Our court is this is just theoretical this is wrong and that's why we included quite a few case studies throughout the report in the education section. There are we have some testimonials from parents and pupils and critics and governors as well behaved and experienced this naturally we found that people were non-religious tend to Bear the brunt of these problems and very often. It's people who are already marginalized and who are especially effective by age discrimination side took it off a single moms because they can't attend church services every week in order to ensure that their child gets going to be local school. Those are on Lower wages. And and LGBT people as well. So it's basically they're the people you're already marginalized than that in terms of equality be comedy act. It's not really doing stuff. So it's failing to protect the people who would be protected exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, we found this all out from signatures and from our online petitions and we've been we but we didn't actually sort of like specifically for report it with people who've been coming to us and telling us these stories and signing this petition for a long time. And all we need to do is literally as if we could find plenty of testimonials room people, for example, he has been punished for not participating Collective Worship in a parent's you find that their people can't enter their local school because they don't go to church just the lots and lots of studies like that song was one particular case study difficulty in that. It's particularly chilling because it involved a school that isn't both film and that's perfect Primary School, which is a community schools. Doesn't have a distance of religious character and we had from two parents who didn't enroll their children at school because it was community-based because it didn't have a range of characters why they they they wanted that and then the school joined a church being of the Canada Trust and things started to change the parents heard that their children were attending simply tell by the church who the children would come trade or Christianity was positioned as the truth and children acting out Bible stories. So the parents decided to raise this with the school choice system said, well, they were acting within the law. That's it says right here we could we could have Collective worship and yeah in a way the school's really you don't necessarily have to be a faith School wage order to Village the discriminates against children. Let me send this numbers talking about her experience of the extent to which the Church of England and the Catholic church in particular influence wage. Legislation through Parliament in your view why is religious influence in general particularly Christianity, but also other religions still still so entrenched in British Society in the 21st century from there about half of the population is probably non-religious looks of it comes to being a very historic privilege. Now the Church of England is the established church the Catholic Church as well as a a very influential presence in if you go for a long time and because of the wealth of the town the status that they've built up. I hope this Legacy and gave him a very powerful lobbying force and we did see when researching for this report. We found that lots of religious groups were involved or consulted during the process. So it really showed the extent to which they were the reason why is exemptions exist. So essentially I think what we've seen here was a institutions that are already privileged trying to maintain I just called trying to keep that package. If you get a sense to the extent to which other religions that are represented in Britain such as Islam and Judaism also are enabled partly through the influence of the saving to maintain their own privileges. I think that the Church of England because he's established church is sort of able to to hold the door open for other groups. So, you know, if if you you just a privilege to the Church of England other religious groups will say well, hang on what about us shortly. If you're giving it to one religion, you should be giving it to us too young and politically often. Is it easier to do this? It's much easier to just say yes to these groups say okay, but rather than tackle the harder problem that you're saying. Well actually please religious groups shouldn't have the money to reading the first place that they've got an advantage and over and they've got privilege that they normally just don't have is there anyone to represent the non-religious in the way. Religious organizations have represent the religious and non-religious is they are sort of by definition. They kind of have their own identity. They don't necessarily Forum groups. I mean, obviously there are groups like human if you pay but I'd say the vast majority of religious people don't actively identifies humanists. A lot of non-religious people are just sort of religiously in different. They're not necessarily. It's just religion is a very positive thought. It's not part of a nice they don't really feel a need to be in a particular group. But of course has the disadvantage that it is much harder to to log the same way that religious groups can the national secular society does trying to elevate the voice of those people essentially. We're about achieving equality for all looking at the issues, which the NSS report has highlighted about the continuing existence of unfair religious privilege supported by equality legislation. What is dead? What are the next steps what what is the Innocence s want to happen? Next we want to do is do draw the attention of ministers and plant areas to this report back to see these recommendations seriously considered and enacted would really want to see being the religious exemption for Education repealed and the the laws that they sort of based around appears as well. So everything will be the moral context of worship. We want to see cast included as its own projects characteristics. So not as expected of race because we think about how physically quite simple to race so well that to be its own fix patch rustic and we want to see the exceptions that allow discrimination if there's a jean occupations apparently visited and see some scrutiny on the organizations that were applying them to make sure that they're doing it in a fair way. What can members do if they want to support the NSS? What we really do encourage all our supporters to read the report and to let their employee to it. So you can do that with you from our website. You can use this function that you can use to send a private mm vegetable method to your MP. And also please be come to us and let us know your experiences if you think that you've got the reporting of experience as well. Please do tell us and it's really helpful to know what people's experiences are and if they helped to make this very further down the line like an immense and thank you very much. This episode was produced by the national secular society All rights reserved. The views expressed by contributors. Do not necessarily represent. Those of the GSS. You can access the show notes and subscriber information for this and all the episodes at secularism. Org. So feedback comments and suggestions. Please email podcast at secularism. Org. UK. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a positive review wherever you can thanks for listening and I hope you can join us next time off.
The Future of Defense with Ash Carter
"The future state cast at the intersection of Technology National Security and politics. I'm your host take Clark. The president of the United States doesn't really run the government. The government is run by the people who run the departments and agencies the president's cabinet and we've been lucky on the future state podcast to have many cabinet members from the secretary of State Secretary of Energy the National Security Advisor the head of E._p._a.. And and today we have perhaps the most important cabinet position all the one that's known in Washington as the SECDEF SECDEF Secretary of Defense runs the largest organization in the U._S. U._S.. Government millions of people in uniform and millions of civilians seven hundred billion dollars a year in spending nuclear weapons fleets of aircraft fleets of ships secdef is the more czar of the United States and the twenty fifth secdef was Ash Carter Ash Carter earned his bachelor's in physics and in Medieval History Summa cum laude and of course that Yale and Phi Beta Kappa of course he got his doctorate in physics from Oxford University where he was a Rhodes. Scholar is also an instructor at Oxford and a post doc at Rockefeller University and at M._I._T.. He did physics research at the Brookhaven National Laboratory and the fermilab outside of Chicago today Ash Carter is the head of the Belfer Center here for International Affairs at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. Ash Carter is here to talk about his time as the secretary of defense. We're going talk about that and the future of defense as well as Ash Carter's great new book inside the five sided box lessons from a lifetime of leadership in the Pentagon the five sided boxes you we know is the Pentagon the headquarters of the fence department and this book inside the five sidewalks demystify is the Pentagon and actually lays bare the inner workings of the Department of Defense <music> so let's talk about the future of defense so Ash Carter Welcome to future state good to be here. Thanks you had the job I always wanted to have uh still time so the secretary of defense whether great job I do I do I do just because I missed the department. I was there in and out of there for thirty seven year right so it's the place I know best and and love most but you know you when you're in a job like that and you've had jobs like this. You know you can't do it forever so I knew there's going to be changed administration. I would be out <hes> what was important to me. Was that I I knew I couldn't finish everything I started but I could start everything I wanted to and that I man I did manage to start everything. I thought the nation needed. It's department depends to start in that sense how satisfied but I don't know if most people who haven't worked in government understand. This is a twenty four hour a day job you. You know people joke about that three A._M.. Phone call but how often did that happen every night. We'll one of the ugliest ways that that transpires is something called Operation Noble Eagle which you have both as deputy members deputy and then I was secretary and the secretary and the deputy share the responsibility for noble Ligo which is the shooting down of civilian airliners if they're headed for example for for the Capitol Dome <hes> that is like a true crisis in today's world crises usually develop over a few hours anyway but that is something that develops over a few minutes that you do wake up in the middle of the night for and and do your general point about the pressure. I didn't feel it until the day after Gimenez took over for me. The day I walked out and Jim Walked in something came off my show. It's almost physical. It's almost physically your you'll know feel that the expression is you feel the weight off your shoulders but you literally do yes in your in your back you know begins to become normal again and maybe get the sleep <hes>. It's is an incredible sacrifice and how much we pay the Secretary of Defense Your pay about one hundred ninety five thousand dollars a year and you're running the biggest corporation in the unites <hes> Yes for for a tiny fraction of what any other corporate <hes> C._E._o.. Always getting a you're running the largest one but nobody's in it for that reason no you're not but on the other hand you know I I look at Singapore where they pay their cabinet members a little man <hes> and every year your in the Pentagon given what you could do on the outside aside. You're giving up money giving up your life. You're giving up money. It's my prime earning years. I've been in public service and that means that I'll have less to give away philanthropic plenty to live on. I'm ready I but I will have less to give away philanthropic LII and less to give to my children than people who spent more of their lives doing other things but there's nothing better to done such a sacrifice and what you get in return yeah you get a lot of job satisfaction. Let's be clear <hes> but you also get attacked by whatever the other party is <hes> I worked for both Democrats and Republicans and and if I was working for Republican Democrats attacked me in the fight was working Democrat Republicans. At the time you get attacked by the press <hes> and no one ever really says thank you very much well. You'd be surprised maybe it's the secretary of defense and the custom now of thanking people for service in leaks in the sector events I to work for presence of both administrations and so I've seen that swing back and forth the one thing about defense and since a lot of your experience was in the White House that may be different in just inherently on because that's the president's President's House and the Department of Defense is the military's house and the the the nation's defense <hes> it's less partisan and <hes> less harsh <hes> now that it doesn't mean that I didn't have to deal with <hes> members of Congress who mature John McCain Major Life Israel on a few got along with John McCain very I know everyone didn't but I always got along with John. He used is to invite me to his on his congressional delegations every year for fifteen years before I became under secretary so I had traveled with him and he knew me and <hes> evidently had some regard for what I was doing least thought it was a straight shooter I believe and I always knew that prickly as he could be and so that he his his anchor was in the America that I know I'm still in love but he did make it difficult on with this. I seen him say things to my subordinates. When I was secretary including chairman of the Joint Chiefs Vice Chairman of the joint chiefs that were so over the top critical yeah so you say those millions of people working in the Pentagon <hes> and their secretaries of the Army Navy and chairman of the Joint Chiefs and and you kind of wonder well you know what's the role of the secretary <hes> in in in setting direction and setting policy and I think you mentioned your mattis replaced you but nobody replaced him nine yet? No and I you know Jim's not replaceable in many ways because he he at least initially commended the ear and maybe the respect to president trump and I worry that the next guy isn't going to be listened to it all so we've been a longtime though without secretary of Defense and what what difference does it make whether we have a strong secretary or not the place will go one. It won't get out of control because there's so much order indiscipline in the nature of the institution and it's got a very deep keel in two point eight million professionals who work there military and civilian would it can't do Dick is move into the future without a leader because nobody can make change but the guy at the top and we need to keep keep changing because we're the best now because we've been pretty good at adaptation over the course of our history but it's a competitive world you know our competitors China Russia Iran North Korea terrorists these are fiercely competitive people who are entirely focused on us and it's a competitive world and we need to compete back and that means continuing to challenge ourselves technologically in terms of how we deal with people and manage people only the guy at the top can and do that. That's where the absence of confirmed secretary of Defense who enjoys some modem of trust from the president will be felt and that's what you did so well because you understood the technology side as well as the policy side <hes> and you talked about <hes> this is called the future state podcast. You talked about shoot your commands and you set up shops <hes> in Silicon Valley in Austin Texas. Tell us about that well when I started at you're right. I'm a physicist in fact the day President Obama nominated me. I got a call from Harold Brown. Who Jimmy Carter Secretary define remember Harold and Harold Harold said Ash every twenty years we get a good secretary of defense and what he was thinking was three scientists himself forty years before Bill Perry twenty years before as a mathematician me that was the way Harold Lloyd <hes> but when I started back thirty seven years ago and my first job when Caspar Weinberger for Secretary of defense all technology that mattered came out of America and most of that came out of defense and so we could grow our own and that would be sufficient <hes> all the electronics all the the Internet Alan? I mean the chip the Internet all that stuff came from us and you know first computer was army project. Yes <hes> for for calculating artillery shells would drop actually turns out be complicated problem <hes> and now it's a different world. It's a world in which a lot of technology comes out of the commercial and global sector. So how do you remain the best military power such world you have to be the most connected to it and be able to suck out of it not out of you. Oh just of your own tech base but suck out of the commercial global technology base the best new stuff and incorporated in your military systems. That's why I put outposts hosts in Silicon Valley Boston Austin I would have done more if I were still there and why put outposts of them in the Pentagon argued example with the defense digital service so these are are. I mean Dick Really people that don't look like you and me in suits and ties <hes> these were people that I would recruit out in these tech companies with the orange hair and nose rings and the whole deal and they are very suspicious of the government is post Snowden and I'd say give me just a year or come in and do one project and I got a promise for I'm not GonNa make you be like me. You know a guy at a suit a little. Oh flag lapel flag lapel <hes> but I promise you this that when you leave whenever that is this'll be the proudest you'll ever be of anything you've ever done. I promise you that an exit at interviews they'd always tell me they were and there are a lot of funny things that happen so these guys would be in their hoodies and they're they're aviator glasses up on their foreheads and everything walking around the Pentagon with you know they're very button down folks. We have there and one one day the men who is what they call mayor the Pentagon but the guy who <hes> get your walls painted so everybody the famous Dohuk Donnybrook was originally that young and Mike Rhodes took place. Mike comes in to me one morning and says Sir the Defense Digital Service which is what this group is called has put all their furniture out in the hallway. What do you want me to and I such as just leave him alone? Just take it away. They wanted an open space. You know so you're at the Pentagon's like like World War Two. They're these big leather chairs with brass tacks in them and big meeting. I remember when I worked there. You could do something called midnight requisitioning which maybe if you stayed around midnight you could go get yourself a nice leather somewhere way you know there were ashtrays on every table when I started out there and you'd throw open the windows in the springtime now let the springtime area not anymore no not anymore but you know the old saw where always ready to fight the last war and and I <hes> despite what you did to cause people to think about the future and and in technology and that's a big boat to turn around and I look at the navy for example with all these big aircraft carriers that just seemed to me to be targets <hes> L. I ask we're spending huge amounts of money to defend these aircraft carriers so that they can do what you know have forty eight air little F. Eighteen airplanes that can drop bombs and it just seemed to me that some of the services are still fighting the last war well yeah you do install all the base of equipment that lasts for thirty forty years so give you another example come back to the carrier rebuilding the Joint Strike Fighter now and I'm for that and I worked really hard to make that less. It was a mess when I started out as acquisitions are <hes> <hes> and it will have thirty forty five year lifetime. I doubt they'll be a follow on man tactical. You think you're the last human piloted aircraft yes technical tactical aircraft. Yes <hes> now you ask what the aircraft F carrier in a high end China Russia. Maybe Iran you're absolutely right. It's going to be increasingly difficult and has this has been true for some years to just been sure the survivability let alone the effectiveness of aircraft carrier begins those kind of enemies anywhere near their shores so fair point. I still think there will be a role however for some aircraft carriers when it comes to the Afghanistan's the series the Iraq's so if you partition things in to high end and low end they'll still be a low end role. Now you're right about fighting the last were in another sense yeah. That's been true on the other hand I would say if I if I name the biggies today for me China Russia Iran North Korea terrorism and I say well all of those are pretty big headache and I don't skinny down the list and try to simplify things. I've got these five headaches and that was my approach <hes>. I think they're each going to change. They'll be artificial intelligence. They'll be more cyber stuff. There may be bio <hes> terrorism though so these things will change but I'll bet you those same categories will be around for those same places will be problematic <hes> for awhile at Bob Gates it's my wonderful predecessor in great mentor and Friend of Mine Great Secretary of Defense and a great director Central Intelligence and Deputy National Security Advisor to <hes> Bob used to as before he became secretary defense as a former D._C._i.. I get applause with a line that went like this. <hes> we've never once predicted where we fought now. This is something you could say in the nineteen nineties and then he'd talk about Grenada and and so I remember Grenada and I do too <hes> and so they should show at right <hes> and so that's a great line however there's one thing that is not accurate about although Bob didn't mean it this way which is it's could suggest to people that are two presence in Europe or in South Korea because word in breakout but those are wars. We prepared for they didn't happen. That's not not a failure story. That's a success story. We knew where they were going to happen. Then we went there and prevented it yeah and so that's the big story of the American military of the last seven years and that is overwhelmingly a triumph of prediction and and prevention. It's not the war it's peace the peace in Japan Peace in Europe. You'd ever get credit for things that didn't happen. I I remember being part nearly nineteen nineties of the so-called nunn-lugar program fact I ran that program and that was a program. It was intended to to win the Soviet Union disintegrated to make sure the nuclear arsenal of the first ever nuclear state to fall apart didn't also fall apart pretty important mission carried out successfully not just because the United States participated in but above all because the Soviet former Soviet custodians did but it was successful and if you tell people that now it sounds like you're giving history lesson yeah but on the other hand there were twenty thousand nuclear weapons they could. Of ended up anywhere yeah so you talked about the future wars involving artificial intelligence and cyber so let's talk about this <hes>. I think a lot of people have a notion that <hes> we're going to turn over control of weapons to Algorithms Algorithms and algorithms are going to make decisions about who to attack. We're talking about cooperation with Silicon Valley and yet <hes> there was this incident at Google. <hes> were <hes> they were involved. Google was going to be involved. I don't know if they were in an artificial intelligence. They were they were and <hes> and some Google employee said we don't want to be involved. <hes> with the Pentagon and I think they were afraid of being part of an artificial intelligence program Graham that we'd go off on its own <hes> you know and and figure out what the target was and kill it <hes> we're not really developing that are we know and and I offered to talk to two Google employees. We concluded on balanced that probably will go to wait and do that. Another time. They were mistaken in my judgment and I think man their management was mistaken to change what they were doing. As a consequence that first of all that was not all google employees or a lot of Google in blazers some Google employees and that's fine. They're entitled to their point of view however I don't agree with your point of view and here's how I would reason with them. I would say to them first of all and this needs to be said good on you your thinking morally that is perfectly appropriate. I want to associate myself with you in that regard and by the way you should think that way about everything that Google does that would be normal well okay and then second I would say as far as your government is concerned in the battlefield. I want you to know that we take our values to the battlefield. I tell you that as the former secretary trey defense by the way Dick you may know this or may not but in twenty twelve when I was deputy secretary of Defense I issued what is still the extent guidance to the Department of Defense on so-called autonomous is weapons which says they will not exist says the must be human not in the loop involved in decision making. I only make that correction because other in the loop is not really technically possible at suggests a person in a chip in a circuit. Did you know that that can literally be right involved in decision making <hes> because that is morally necessary. It is operationally totally practical number three. I would say the <hes> on the contrary very. Are you comfortable working for the P._L._A.. Because you do Chinese People's Liberation Army because you don't know when you work in China which your company does whether because they don't tell you who died and the last thing I'd say to them is do you really take for granted. Everything that's around you. You have a company you drive. You drove to work today on a road that somebody made that's public project. You have employees who come in who can read and write. That's a public project. You're defended if I may say so by the department Iran and that seems like a pretty necessary thing. The government isn't some extraneous factor Dr it is how we do things that must be done collectively and if you don't like the way it's being done or distrust Wade's being done getting the game. How are we ever going to do the right thing on a I if people like you you don't get involved in it? I became involved in the government because I was a physicist and at that time star wars nuclear weapons were going on and I didn't always agree with what the government was doing but I felt like I had a responsibility ons ability to participate so that's the argument I would make to them. I share that view and I got involved in the government. <hes> straight out of college Undergrad went to work at the Pentagon S. four years of my life I think in some ways <hes> but those this where the years in the immediate aftermath of the Vietnam War and I was Vietnam war protesters and people didn't understand why are you going to work in the Pentagon us. The enemy has no. It's not the enemy that's us. Yes and the only way you prevent bad things from happening is by being involved. Yes you're so right. I I had the same attitude that I still have today and it's what I tell young people including Google irs. I say you get in if you if you want it to turn out right get in the game. There's no it's the only government we got. You can't go down the street and shopping another store and Donald trump will forever be president so these days I particularly get the question you made to from young people all the time and and I tell them yes no particular president will be here <hes> forever <hes> but this is your country. There's no alternative and you're not gonNA get your way all the time <hes> but go ahead and give it a shot and I get so frustrated with people who my model of the clueless is the wealthy businessmen who drives his lexus around simultaneously complaining about paint his taxes and the potholes now exactly when I swore <hes> the oath for the first time in the Pentagon Richard Nixon was the president <hes> and need. I say what I thought of Richard Nixon at the time I think the people should still go in <hes> because you can do good at any level in the government <hes> Roy Math Buckley Apropos Richard Nixon nurture Nixon's after my time but <HES> <hes> before my time rather but we met Buckley said he he was being asked by the F._B._i.. The question you've heard a million times asked about colleagues that they've asked you which is <hes>. It's the last question in a long security questionnaire. <hes> is there anything about Mr so and so <hes> that might embarrass the president and Buckley said about this colleague if his and Richard Nixon being president at the time he said in his best pseudo British accent <hes>. I should think the reverse is more likely. You're so we have this policy. Would you put in place <hes> on a I but I'm not sure other countries will yeah <hes> and so we have these fictionalised scenarios. I'm sure you're red. Ghost Fleet in there's great book <hes> where there's a hyper war a war that takes place really fast <hes> with hypersonic weapons with Cyber Weapons <hes> and with artificial intelligence making decisions <hes> if not on our side at least on the other aside <hes> how much of that is science fiction and how much of that is the next door I think the the speed and the automatic AC- of the weapons Israel <hes> but I think the opportunity for human responsibility and leadership is there <hes> and we'll continue to be they're not in the sense of as I said being a chip in the circuit but we've got to be the best that which means we have to have thought through the best field the best stuff the stuff that will dominate that is a creation of human thought and strategic wisdom and I think if we have that and we have good technology technology the best technology which I think we is within our Ken to have we'll win. Whatever form it takes there still will be a sense of victory? <hes> this will be a human war. One for human purpose in there is going to be human winter and human loser in the winner is GonNa be us and even when we talk about cyber wars cyber wars not going to take place in a vacuum. It's not GonNa Take Place just in cyberspace. It'll be part of an overall war. <hes> and I know oh you've thought so much instill now at Harvard Kennedy School at the Belfer Center thinking so much about cyber war but when you we talked about this earlier when you turn to the Cyber Command and said do something and go after Isis <hes> for me you were disappointed with the results I was is another story. I told in the book <hes> it was a managerial issue <hes> for me and <hes> making us us the best at cyber warfare is is to me a necessity and he's one of those areas where only the secretary of defense can lead that future and yes. I thought we had more. They're inside calm than we proved to have. When it was time to go after Isis now think about isis the these are barbarians? These are people who are crucifying people who are enslaving women so if you're there every time when the gloves are off it should be then that should be there and so I said you know just go get them and then we didn't get much <hes> out of it and that was to me me a sign that we weren't close yet and that wasn't US limiting ourselves there. Were some things like you'll appreciate this. There's always a trade off cyber between there's oh forever been in counter commanding handing control attack between listening to someone and taking away their communication so that's their <hes> for sure the problem with terrorism yeah yeah yeah and so it's you've been there you know that perfectly well still all all this was a situation where all that balance was in favour blackeyed these guys after other plotted against our people <hes> from places like rock and we didn't have anything so all that's crying over spilled milk now. It's it's but the point is a making of saying that in the book was to point up the managerial issues associated with cyber <hes> it's not enough to simply organiz around it and have a military command cybercrime lived at the margins of what is really the big dog of expertise which is the national security agency also managed by the Secretary of defense but done <hes> separately and I think I I figured that since they were they live next door to one another and had the same director appointed by us that there would be more diffusion of between Cyber Command between cyber come in and an annexation particularly from N._S._A.. <hes> to cyber combat it was difficult because the ETA said people are by nature listeners and not warriors <hes> and you can have a lot of warriors over there who may be really excellent and what they do know a lot about the trade craft of were but if they don't do anything about information technology they're going to be much useful used for that either so it was disappointing to me. We need to get better one of the things I hear about Cyber Command which I disagree with but I hear it that Wanna get your reaction. <hes> I hear a lot of people saying I pay taxes US and when I'm when I'm attacked by the Russian military or the P. L._A.. The Chinese military I expect the Pentagon defend me. So why do I have to spend all his money. Defending my company's cybersecurity security against the Russians the Chinese why isn't Cyber Command defending <hes> couple while you're right to disagree with that a couple of things wrong with it the first is that if you have laid to yourself open to foreign enemies you've also laid yourself open to everyone else and so technologically you are describing a situation in which you have not protected your Intellectual Property Operti the your customers data and that's a bigger problem than with her for nationalist is doing it so I wouldn't make that can fashion if I were C._E._O.. On a board <hes> second <hes> <hes> it's not the case the department it's not since it's not pure war. It's not purely a Defense Department responsibility and here the ugly reality which you know full well <hes> comes in. In which is homeland security is inherently an interagency responsibility which makes it a goat screw as the expression goes in Washington terms and we created a Department of Homeland Security which I knew from the very beginning and I remember saying this at the time was not going to be the answer. I did too good right so it was an aggregation of parts of things but you're still going to have an energy problem because you started diplomatic function. You still had an intelligence function. You still had a military. All these things weren't going to go away and by the way under U._S.. Law There are state and local jurisdictions as well who kinda think they're in charge. I remember during Hurricane Sandy. I was deputy secretary. Hey Defense and so we were up there trying to help out in New York and New Jersey. Yes and President Obama said to me. Don't be parochial. Help the country and I said all my people don't mess around. Just don't ask ask whether it's your job. Don't ask whether it's your stuff do it do it and so that was the spirit everyone ahead but then you get up there and you realize that there's a governor of Connecticut Governor New York Governor New Jersey and a mirror her New York who thinks none of the other exists and they're the people who are really calling the shots at you have to fall in behind them and give them support give them support and and so the reality of defending the country whether it's cyber or storm or some other form of terrorist attacker would were whatever it is in warfare. It's mostly us not entirely us even then but it's mostly us but in cyber it's it. It's first of all your responsibility if you have an enterprise and it depends upon information technology to succeed then you have the same responsibility to your shareholders and your employees and your customers <hes> as you do in any other matter. Nobody's going to get you off that Hook one one last question <hes> the future of NATO. You spend a lot of time in in Brussels at the North Atlantic Council <hes> and I always thought that was our one of our if not our greatest military asset was the fact that we had in the lions of of Democracies <hes> that the shared some oh the burden we always wanted them to take more of the burden but they shared some of the burden and now the president just attacks them all the time and I I. I wonder if you know ten years from now. We'll have a native well. I certainly hope but I actually believe we will but it may be a weakened one. <hes> the reason I think will have one is that this is a very strong institution and you know you know that institutions that take decades gates to build can be destroyed a few years. You're absolutely right on the other hand. There's a lot of strength in resilience in this institution the critical ingredient of which is the shared values that most most of these countries have that's bigger glue particularly among democracies than maybe those of us who are geo-strategically inclined purely fully appreciate the flip side of that is them being democracies that is is that that once you have disrespected or ticked off the population of another country even if their leadership can't possibly do what you want even if it's the right thing for the their country and you and even if you've changed your policy won't survive they won't survive and so you gotta be very careful about disrespecting another country that is a democracy because it's not like Kim Jong Un and you can call them rocket man one day A._N._C. Love him the next and Hills Zig Zag and he doesn't have to ask anybody's permission. It's just that Theresa may now or Angle Merckel or Shinzo obey because they have beneath them people who will take themselves personally take umbrage at the way their country or their leaders being treated and that's hard to reverse Ash Carter. There's so much in the book the five sided box that we could talk about <hes> we could do twenty <hes> hours of this podcast August <hes> but thank you for doing this hour and <hes> thank you for writing the book and thank you most of all for your service not just as secretary of defense but for decades in the Pentagon thank you thanks for having me Dick and I hope people enjoy the book I want to say. It's not a Washington memoir now. No it certainly not it's. It's a different kind of book. It's about the Pentagon it's about the Pentagon and the real Pentagon not the one that <hes> you may hear about elsewhere Ash Carter. Thanks very much thank you. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. If you did please go to wherever you get your podcasts and rate us so that others will get your recommendation and if you want to see a list of other season one and season two shows go to future state PODCAST DOT COM and also at that website and you'll see what we are reading the books of Twenty nineteen and that we think you'll like many of which were going to talk about on the podcast but they're more books there as well one book. You'll find there. I hope you'll read is the fifth domain by Rob Janaki and meet it's about cyber war and how to get from cyber war to cyber piece. It's ridden in well. I hope is clear. English has lots of real stories and real people as well as some recipes for getting decipher these the fifth domain can be preordered now traveler insurance for future state are made by Sire Travel C. I. R. E. Sira Travel Dot Com for or your personal travel as well as your business travel. Don't think you can do it as well as the experts at sired we use them. 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Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network: RFD Today (May 15, 2019)
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No one can match today's the day for doing with ryobi's trimmer blower combo just one hundred fifty nine bucks. Only at the Home Depot. More saving. More doing value may twenty ninth while supplies last. Fifteen. Eight seven six five. This is our today. A daily book at the topics impacting rule, leaving the white, we examined issues impacting you income and your community. Here's your host for today's program the law, Sean. Hey, good Wednesday to Yale annoy. Thanks for joining us for this adventure in broadcasting on the fifteenth of may. George Brett's birthday, by the way hit three eighty five of the nineteen eighty five World Series. But I don't wanna do anything cardinals fans on a day like this, especially those, we've been through enough already this spring from a lack of planting progress, and then this in yesterday, or in the earlier today in facts, one sweet from national weather service, the one based in Lincoln talks about a warming trend, but then ears will end that was from six hours ago, severe thunderstorms remain possible for Thursday night from around ice, seventy four northward main threads HALE, and locally damaging wind gusts. So there's that one. So another one that was from a couple of hours ago. Up nort national weather service in twin cities. The twin cities in this case were being Minneapolis, and Saint Paul. They say we're headed for a very active period of weather with several inches of rain possible over the next seven days, severe. Weather's also possible late Friday with the large hail being the main threat temperatures will be warm, but by Saturday. Highs will only be forties or fifties. So what he's supposed. That means for planning progress up there, and if they get as much more rain, what he's supposed that means for water coming down the Mississippi on today's program, lots to discuss and redefine asure will be joining us in just a couple of minutes. She's in DC for Washington watches, is it annual gathering in Washington from, that's why God Washington. Hello, these annual gathering farm broadcasters from across the country. And yesterday, they talked with some folks at USDA secretary. Perdue was out travelling, but dead McKinney. While the undersecretaries also Greg Dowd, whether Tif, Agni, Goshi hitters were part of that discussion is one of the things that you'll hear discuss also Richard Ford, ice, Missouri farmer, who is the chief of USDA's farm service agency. But one of the things that you'll hear in just a couple of minutes. Undersecretary McKinney, talking about the notion of relief packages and really makes one wonder because there's so much talk about being so close and talk still being opened with folks of China about getting a trade deal done offense, the case. Then why such a quick talk about a any kind of facilitation program, and what would it look like because this last run was a penny for corn, one sixty five or soybean so with that goal is if we're possible people to make some considerations, make some changes about what they wanted to plant this year. Would it impact acreage at all? And so lots to weigh in, but it sounds like this sort of thing is going to take place, soon, not down the road, but somewhat soon. So you hear a whole bunch of from folks in DC that reader will be providing soon. Also, Jim Bauer Vour trading. Hey, we have we have all through the markets today. Still moving higher. It's time to talk to him. 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He Noah how a school today it was really fun class has fueled Eaton's families pink farm, did you learn anything. Interesting. Yeah. When I pig it cold is dead. Call the pig doctrine gives him medicine just like you. Give me when I'm sick. It sounds like you learned a lot from ethan's, dad. Yes. He told us healthy pigs are happy pig. Find out more about Eleanor pig farmers at watch us. Grow dot org. Brought to you by farm bureau, where it's all about farm, family, and food. You're in the mood for some Spurs ING up, you're in luck from big to small or farm to front yard, your Illinois farm bureau member discount from John Deere, is ready and waiting to help. It's easy to think green when it's the rewards loyalty program with savings on equipment, special parts and home in workshop products by the your tasks involve mowing, planting or cleaning, you'll be set for whatever your work requires all you need to do is sign up have your membership number handy, and go. To John Deere dot com farm hero. Hi. This is Sabrina hardy RSD business manager. I wanna thank you for listening to the RFID radio network. The number one ad radio network fill-in away. Did you know our radio network's programming is being broadcast by Rita Frazier and the loss junkie with a confined, fifteen years of broadcasting experience, join us faily, if you have any questions Email me at C H. A R D Y at I l f b dot org. Welcome back to RSD today. I'm Rita Frazier in the nation's capital this week for Washington watch the nation's farm broadcasters here to talk not only to elected officials, but the USDA and their top brass came out yesterday to talk to us and get messages back to farmers. Ted McKinney under secretary for trade in foreign affairs, talks about the disappointment in the breakdown of the China trade talks last week. But he does say he remains optimistic for those talks to continue. And also, he mentioned another mitigation program in the works to China is probably on your mind. And I think, you know, or if you've read, we are in the middle of, developing some sort of a, a mitigation program, a different mitigation program. I do think. It's going to come far sooner than, perhaps, you know, some of the lay press reported, we're working very diligently all of us. This is an all hands on deck. Kind of thing at the president and secretary produce requests so that we can give immediate relief. Well immediate long-term? There's some market development in there, too for our for farmers. And ranchers, it is unfortunate that, that the disagreement was was realized with China. It's probably not surprising. I will tell you the discussions on Ag had gone. Well, we were pleased, but I'll never forget. We run a digital video conference. And I looked at Mr. Dowd, and he looked at me, and we said, this is different, and we sensed this backsliding, starting and then we compared our notes with other teams. So there was distinctly a change of us by our friends in China. But that doesn't mean remanded him. We do believe we still believe I am still optimistic that we're going to get there. And I read that the president will he committed. I think that he'll be visiting with president Xi Jinping on the margins of the G twenty and that's a good. Thing if you're still talking, it's a good thing. So I'm up mystic. Because I think China really does need the US and certainly we need and want them. So we're working through these things, but I think I think I still am optimistically. We will get there may getting also said he believes the details of that mitigation program for farmers will be rolled out in a matter of days, not weeks or months, but I think it's more like days, not weeks months. So that's as close as I can get 'cause I don't wanna get out ahead of the secretary of the president. But, but the intent is to be quick, because we want to send a powerful message to I are farmers and ranchers, and the ad world, but also to our friends around the world. That Ag is not up for debate. The diversity the portfolio if I can use, I think is going to be very diverse. I don't wanna get specifics, but it's all the above. We're still finalizing it, and so some pieces may come and go eb and flow. But we're looking at all of those things some of the types of programs that you saw in, in the three headed monster. Your words not mine. Thanks. But also other things because we want to we want to be robust. And we wanna make sure that farmers really get the message that while trade is preferred the administration has their backs given the strife. They've been through over these last many, many months. So it's an all of the above strategy, and you're gonna see some new things, and you'll see some traditional or some things like we did before Ted McKinney under secretary for trade in foreign affairs. US the a, a many of those negotiations between China and the US when it came to agriculture involved, Ted mcinerney, and Greg, down Dowd, being the chief Agni Goshi Ator the office of US TR Dow gave us the agriculture perspective in the trade talks with China and. Agriculture. We have the most to gain from an agreement with China, and we also have the most lose without an agreement with China. Ted I have we've been on most of these together, we've had the first conversation just about a year ago since that time, we've had about twenty or twenty one negotiating sessions with my counterpart, vice minister of agriculture on June. These conversations have been historic in my opinion. We have spent hours and hours and hours, talking about an enormous number of issues and agriculture, and I want to put this in some context for you today to, to help you understand the scope and the magnitude of issues, just an agriculture. So we exported nineteen point six billion dollars worth of agricultural products to China in twenty seventeen and dropped significantly, obviously twenty eighteen to nine point three billion, even though overal US exports last year were up two billion to about one hundred and forty five billion to put that in context, let's talk about. China for in twenty eighteen China's total agricultural imports were one hundred and twenty four billion dollars. So total US exports one hundred and forty five total Chinese imports of agricultural products. One hundred twenty four. So when an a good year we're getting twenty out of one hundred twenty four of what China imports and the point I've made from the beginning of this conversation and continue to make with my counterpart in China. Is that twenty out of one hundred twenty four just didn't gonna cut it? And the Frank fact of the matter is, yes, we import or export to China around somewhere around thirteen billion dollars for the soybean. But if you look through all of the other commodity, whether it's we'd corn, soybeans rice, ethanol, distillers, grains dairy products, we could go into a lot of different products. You're on the beef pork and poultry side of the equation. We have almost no accent. Let me repeat that we have almost no access. And most of these other commodities, and in fact, you hear here. Is a very telling statistic and just the month of March month before last the most recent trade data trying imported nine hundred sixty five million dollars or the beef pork and poultry combined? Week in partners magazine editor Chris Anderson connects rule routes for you. Chris shares or four decades of a writing expertise by making sure each addition delivers the best information, here's a bit about her rule roots. I'm on a farm in Champaign county going corn. Soybeans popcorn pumpkins in poultry, my top priority is to inform educate, and even entertain farm bureau members via routes or routes are empty radio farm week now dot com and farm, we keep you. This Memorial Day kickoff. Dumber with something very cool up to forty percent off of client, specialized like a whirlpool. Refrigerator now for just five hundred ninety eight bucks. Big eighteen foot capacity has plenty of stores and that price with everything within reach summer's here and today's the day for doing with Memorial Day saving now at the Home Depot. More saving. More doing. US only while supplies last. For details about June fifth. Getting tired of your lunch luncheons change it up with video Caesar's hot and ready. Well, we the winds of change. Eroding deep deep dish pizza. Plus stream. Here you going. Get the Lucy's lunch combo now. Just four bucks. Hot and ready eleven into two pm. Weekdays available at participating locations. For a limited time, plus tax bring is here. Things are buzzing farmers and pollinators are working together to help this, in fact, one out of every three bites of food. We eat exists, because these autre flies back and other insects, pollinators importance where system and the ecosystem for all farmers in those in the agriculture industry are working together to protect pollinators education research and conservation is high L for monarchs dot org. Join the bucks, that's I l for monarchs gutter. You're going to need me. You're going to need us. Going to need our technical skills. Our math. Our engineering skills. He going to need our help with your water, your air, your food. You're going to need our organizational skills. Our problem-solving skills. You're going to need our determination our on our compassion. Go into the next generation of leaders to face the challenges, the future will bring, and we promise we'll be there. Today. Four h is growing the next generation of leaders. Support us at four h dot org. This is the story of MRs Clark who has lived on this very block. Most of her eighty years often seen walking to town, or serving brownies to the neighborhood kids and everyone loves her two years ago, certain family member moved into look after MRs Clark, and that's when everything changed. Mrs Clark became the victim of elder abuse, elder abuse often closer to home than you think or want to believe the crime dog here, the National Crime Prevention council wants you to know the signs of elder abuse roses, isolation produced activities for hygiene, depression, and financial problems. Protect yourself speak of your recognized signs of abuse, others elder abuse is a crime that affects over two million senior citizens every year even more astounding, it's most commonly committed by a family member or someone. They trust it, if you suspect abuse, contact your local on Forsman agency. To learn more, go to NCPC dot org forward slash seniors. That's NCPC dot org slash seniors. A message from the National Crime Prevention council and the US. Justice. We're back you're on our FD today on a wind day. I'm Rita phrase, your we're in DC with farm broadcasters from around the nation for Washington watcher annual visit here to DC spending some holiday time at USDA yesterday. With officials like Richard Ford is, he's administrator of the farm service agency or dice talked about the tough situation out there for US farmers, especially for the dairy industry in talk more about the twenty four teen dairy program and the new program for dairy producers margin protection program for Jerry under the fourteen foreign Bill, lots of interests. Lots of sign up at the beginning, when that program was rolled out. And it really just didn't didn't accomplish the things that I think the authors thought that it would. So there were some adjustments for short period of time due to the bipartisan budget act. It was passed in February. Two thousand eighteen and then they really really took a look at it in the new Bill, and so Marsh protection program now Gary margin coverage DMC. So anyway, dairy margin coverage program, those, those issues in MPP that were really not working. Well, they really took a look at so raise the coverage levels opportunities for producers to select higher coverage levels lowered the premiums, and then offered an opportunity or will offer an opportunity for those, those producers that had paid premiums in the old margin protection program to be able to apply those as a seventy five percent credit toward premiums in the new program or get a fifty percent. The value of those premiums, minus any payments that they would have gotten fifty percent cash payment. So offering some some flexibility around that I think was was really important. There's a lot of interest certainly in the program will begin sign up on June seventeenth for the DMC program. We've been working kind of simultaneously across the different programs that will. Administer it that form service agency, but Gary program was priority one to get it to get sign up for producers out the door. I we're on track to be able to do that. Also talked about the twenty eighteen farm Bill and getting to work on the date tales as he mentioned. There's a lot of work to be done there. Still a lot of work that needs to be, you know, certainly the process, the process that we would go through as after the farm Bill was agreed upon pass. President signed it on the twentieth of December. And we started looking then at the legislation between the two the two bills, fourteen in the eighteen farmville is, and so we did that across all of those programs, whether CRP or livestock, disaster programs RPO, see the Jerry margin coverage program, then, by comparing the two the language from the two bills that kinda gives you kinda what's kind of what the lift is going forward. So you know how much how much work do we need from an IT perspective? So modernizing our systems to be able to administer those probe. Grams writing the handbooks, the guidance for, for all of our employees, nearly eleven thousand employees across twenty one hundred twenty four county offices that are gonna administer these programs from an administrative standpoint. We've got to really large assets one is our people. And second is our all of our IT platforms that support the, the administration, this programs aren't peel. See, again, some changes there, I think that we're positive, I would say that probably a lot of producers that made those made those elections in two thousand fourteen as as market situations change. They probably would have maybe made some different elections that they had the chance while the new farm Bill allows for that producers will make an election in nineteen, we're gonna start sign up for our peel around September, first that election is also good for the twenty twenty crop. And then producers will have an opportunity if they so choose, and twenty two thousand twenty one two thousand twenty two thousand twenty three to make different elections, if it looks like that would be the right decision to make so from CRP standpoint. Certainly, one of our really kind of foundational programs the accomplishments that producers have been able to gain through voluntary. Conservation efforts with CRP since the beginning, in nineteen eighty five I think are monumental, you know, the amount of soil erosion, that's been prevented. The improvements to water quality, not a lot of changes and CRP. Although the cap has now been raised by the end of this farm, Bill. Twenty seven million acres will be the cap and congress recognized the need for additional acres and CRP Richard Ford ice administrator. Farm service agency, Bill, nor the friend. Many farm broadcasters is under secretary for farm production and conservation. He also talked about the China trade deal breakdown help for farmers, and other areas of interest as midwest deals with disasters and late planting the president. And the secretary said, we're staying with their Palmer's. I think the most important thing they've all said as well. So we need an agreement, but we need a good agreement. We're not just going to sign anything. Certainly the Chinese back away from some of the commitments. They make then we need to bring them back to the table. Think they're committed to that. In the meantime, we have some producers that are hurting, and we'll figure out what we need to do to be able to come up with some support for those producers of this continues to Guam per while he no, we had a market facilitation program last year. I guess the summary of that is we had about six hundred thousand producers participated about a million contracts because some of those producers had more than one crop of that they participated in and about eight point five billion dollars in direct payments other money went out and put purchases and in the program to be able to build markets and other places as well. Let me say we got got some disasters around the mid west been active in trying to make sure that we've got some response to some of those. Disasters programs that we can do we need a Bill, that provides some more hunting as more authoritative will see a Bill has passed the house. We'll see what happens here in the Senate. There's some additional authorities in it. I don't own to predict what's gonna come out of that, Bill. But we need that both for the mid west, but we need it for those areas, hit by hurricanes last year, as well Bill, nor the under secretary farm production conservation are FDA today continues. I'm Rita Frazier here on the RSD radio network. Your old gas yard twos of met their match right now. The Home Depot has Memorial Day savings on ryobi's, forty volt cordless trimmer, and blower combo just one hundred fifty nine bucks. It has the performance of gas without the hassle. It's too powerful tools powered by a forty volt lithium ion battery platforms. And right now, it's at a price. No one can match today's the day for doing with ryobi's trimmer blower combo just one hundred fifty nine bucks. Only the Home Depot, more saving. More doing value may twenty ninth supplies last. If you're a pro you buy big, and when you buy big you save. Big at the Home Depot with Pro Bowl pricing of the stuff you need and use every day like five percent of fence pickets and ten percent offense panels. Plywood in always b plus, you'll save time not driving all over town for lumber and that's really big. You work hard enough your money saving. It should be easy now is with Pro Bowl pricing. What you need every day, only at the Home Depot. More saving. More doing. More farm news and information ahead Fe tuned for more RSD today here on the Eleanor farm bureau radio network. Social media Sabrina Berkowitz connects rule routes for you. Sabrina covers a broad range of egg topics. So farm bureau members are there, I know about key issues. Here's a bit about her rule routes. I grew up with a grain and lifestyle farm in my extended family and today, I really enjoy helping people learn how to use social media to advocate for agriculture routes or routes are empty radio far week now dot com and farm, we keep you connected. Attention corn farmers, your corn, checkoff dollars are working with the US meat export federation to grow red meat export volumes. Because when we're exporting beef. We're also exporting corn, the beef industry, consumes twenty eight percent of all corn fed to livestock, plus additional corn in the form of a co product of ethanol production. 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Have you itching for a weekend getaway fake, your Illinois farm bureau membership savings with you armed hero members can save up to twenty percent at choice hotels including favorites like comfort suites, sleep in quality and suites with even more to choose from eight hundred two five eight two eight four seven or visit the choice hotels website, search all the hotels at once and to make advance reservation. Contact your local county farm bureau for you. Your discount code. Welcome back to our feeds day on a Wednesday under Lois. Yongqing Jim Bauer is on the phone regular Chan with folks and Bauer trading. Jim. How are you today? Good. It's interesting day right off to that. So no correction yet, follow through so that was why I know the overnights higher. But that was one thing was after you gain double figures for cord. We'd end twenty nine cents for soybeans, what the encore was going to be so so far. So good. Well, as, as you know, I've been doing this, a long time, and I was talked from the very, very beginning by very skilled traitor, to always remember whether markets are McCurry, which means they can go up and down pretty fast and on quick notice. They can be extreme and price fluctuation, which is kind of what we're seeing now and they're very, very difficult to master. 'cause they change on you all the time. Remember that weather forecast. More than a few days old are not too reliable even though the technologies that we have today, certainly make it a situation where you can't be more accurate. I was just looking at the precipitation forecasts for the midwest, and it looks pretty wet to me. Particularly on the extended model that goes out into the northern and western corn belt, they've been doing some pretty active fieldwork work out there. But they're gonna get held up. It looks to me like so what I'm trying to say is this is a weather market. We all we are in a weather market. And you've got to be cognizant of changes in the weather forecast. But certainly, there's a lot of producers that would love to be able to go to the field. And it's just it's just playing too wet. Eastern, corden build in particular. I mean Indiana had virtually no progress. Ohio's got nothing done in Illinois has had such little as well over here is moving toward western corn belt, and we're still paying well, we're paying for wetness in March and not to mention even it's a couple of weeks ago now that the, you know, the fields are, are still relatively wit. So it it's interesting that, that's that the that, that by is, is taking place already, I was afraid it was going to have to go into June before you know, things would really start to wake up and, and notice issues there. Yes, I drove Minneapolis to laugh yet this morning and I didn't see a wheel turn anyplace, and you can still see standing water in a lot of these fields, which are normally dry as time, either relatively well tile. But even even with good Tyler systems of the flow of waters in so much it's just can't hasn't been able to handle it. So, again, remember that major trends in the marketplace are seldom broken unless the market goes against the trend for more than three consecutive days and today would be the third day of this counter-cyclical move where we've been seeing with a pretty sharp up move just just Monday morning. We'll add to pay attention to that again, whether models can change rapidly for you or against you. So pay close attention this market could get quite volatile. Again, I need this is not a supply, demand situation. It's not a tariff situation. This is a weather market. Which will be ruled and guided by weather forecast. I was gonna ask that so whether has dibs or whether holds the Trump card if you will over supply and demand over whatever talks going on with China, anything like that. Well, in unison with the weather model and models. Remember that as of Monday morning. If you combine corn beans, wheat meal, and oil futures, contracts funds, the manage funds were short six hundred and twenty nine thousand contracts, repeat that six hundred twenty nine thousand kinda acts. So a lot of that is still short and is getting burnt pretty bad right now. So we'll see. You have much of takes force them out of there, but the markings to be on a mission to try to get to them and to get them to cover their short positions at least short term. Surely that some sort of record. I mean that sounds like it unprecedented. Kind of number. That's that's that's the record. That, that's a huge number, and they and they out some of that on at the at the low. So I'm a little surprised to see the market react this way. When you drive by the field as you say, it's so wet. We're not getting much feel work done. And it's we're, we're protein into may for part of June. We, we should be done, or finishing up starting. Is there any connection to, you know, the rhythms and the, the automation? I mean if the traders were actually looking at each other in the eye with the pits in, in the pit saying, look, you're, you're too far short. You gotta do something about this. I mean, is this a function of, of automation that would allow such short positions? Or does it does it more market based on? I would give it credit for. Well, I think you know being my position and the long time, I've been in this market, watching their every tick for almost fifty years. Yeah, I to be honest, if he I missed the feedback and the rhythm of the marketplace in the pits, because it gets it gave you kind of an emotional feel for the market, suppose. It is supply demand. Number two gave a gate gave you kind of feel for the rhythm of the market with computers and. Algorithm. Make trae we lose a lot of that. So we don't have that element of the market, they help us. And I think in this type of market would help, but we don't have it, because it's been replaced by algorithm, mic and computer funds. Live with it. It's not gonna go away, but, but certainly funds can be wrong just like all of us can. Well, you re are up eleven twelve on soybeans, that at the time that we're doing this interview and eight to eight to nine for corn. So we'll see how this continues through the day. We have a break coming up. I wanna ask you, plenty more after the break Jim, including the projection that was thrown out with the reports last week of a hundred and seventy six bushels per acre for corn. We talk about that a little bit. And now if we keep moving this gets to the point where folks start to say, well, let's see if we can get nother nickel in here. You know what kind of positions do we make? And how do we protect our downside? Now that we've had this move up at all to come on a Wednesday are if today. Ryobi days at the Home Depot by ryobi one plus two pack batteries starter kit for just ninety nine bucks, and get one of over twenty ryobi one plus tools of to an eighty dollars value free, the one plus system. Damascus, visit over a hundred and twenty five other ryobi tools. So now going cordless is almost endless by the battery kit, get a free to ryobi days. Now, the Home Depot, more states. More doing nineteenth the customer lost by last for. If you're a pro you buy big, and when you buy big you save. Big at the Home Depot with Pro Bowl pricing of the stuff you need and use every day like five percent bench, pickets and ten percent offense panels. Plywood in always be plus you'll save time, not driving all over town for lumber, and that's really big. You work hard enough your money saving. It should be easy now is with Pro Bowl pricing. What you need every day, only at the Home Depot. More saving. More doing. When it comes to our members Chris Magnusson connect rural routes for you. Chris leads Illinois farm bureau's efforts to provide valuable information to our members. He spent two decades with, I af B, here's a bit about his rural roots. I grew up on a farm with corn. Soybeans and Christmas trees. I've been in communication for three decades. Now, my greatest satisfaction as always remained the same the serve our members be it routes or routes are FD radio farm week now dot com and harm week. He you connected. For midnight, next to holiday gathering's food is a part of our culture that together every day to make sure we all have food on our tables, Illinois, farmers are going beyond planting crops in raising animals. We're making sure the wildlife that helps her food grope has homes to, to learn more about conservation efforts, visit IM farmers, conserve dot com. Preserving our water protecting our land, providing our food. This message brought to you by Eloy farm bureau. The markets are radio network. I'm loss Yongqing eight to nine higher on nearby corn contracts, you like horn up nine and a half. Three seventy eight. In the quarter. They hit a high of three eighty today September corn up nine three eighty six and a quarter, December eight and a quarter three ninety six it's is three ninety seven and three quarters July wavings of twelve and a half. Eight forty four August twelve and a half eight fifty and a half November eleven eight sixty seven and a half. That's four cents off its high for the day, so he meal of another four ninety. So we'd be Noel of thirty July, we'd up another thirteen in quarter four sixty one in pre quarter's, June hogs of another dollar ten ninety twenty two July of ninety to ninety ninety seven dogs have been up three and a half dollars last day, plus, but cattles still can't follow along Jim cattle, down nickel hundred nine forty five CRT radio network. Welcome back or if the today on Wednesday. I'm DeLores Gyonggi, Jim Bowers joining us over the phone from Bauer trading in Lafayette, Indiana and boy, bet that all those folks that built businesses there, you know, there's a lot of these west Lafayette, and there's the river between night -ssume that water gun fairly high over there pretty close to town, didn't it? Yes. Is it got high? When me that series of rain. It started back down now a little bit. But as you just discuss there's there is rain in the forecast for the extensive and pretty significant because some of the models are taking this, heavy rain pattern to the end of the month. So again, it is where the market. That's how we're gonna have to play it either. Good or bad. When they build all that, retail down there, down down the over in campus if water would ever get up to there, but that's gotta gotta have retail in places like that. It's all right. Let me ask you about last week's reports by may which thrilled one hundred seventy six bushels for corn. I, I don't know what else scientifically they could have come up with, especially this early in the year you have to base the market's off something. But if we're whether market now I mean, is that number already out the window or what do you think? Well, I haven't heard that chatter for the yield to the degree. I've heard prevent plans acres maybe going to be sharp increase now, we'll have to wait and see. There's talk pretty high acreage there one seventy six under these kind of circumstances with the crop now going to be put in significantly later than we were hoping to as compared to the last several years. Remember it hasn't been just last year. We had good planning, whether it's in wrote three or four years in a row. He had decent in most areas, but I don't think the yield factor has come into play quite yet. That could be the spark that really turns on this bonfire of accumulated short positions, by the funds that, that, that might be the thing that really puts the heat on them to come out of their short positions. But I mean in reality, I would tell myself, I think the. Yield is already coming down and certainly can't match last year. We're just we're just off to such a poor. Some of these feels look terrible. So much repair on the little spots of erosion, that's that's going to need to be done. I mean that kind of touch up in these wet spots are still awfully wet outta we get in there and get this done in such a rapid manner as well. The old four row plan, or you could go around it a lot easier than you could with the with what we have today, but we already have December corn has let's see the high today. Three ninety seven and three quarters. So we're right back where we were so is, is this an opportunity? 'cause now I can already hear people saying, well, let's see if it goes the four goes, the 4:05 or that sort of thing that'll be take advantage of this. If, if we should at this point. Well as a general strategy in this type of market players, we get started making some degree fails. I mean it doesn't sound unreasonable after this big of a rally, and they protect it with some call options above the markets. Just in case, it's whether pattern stays as bad, as, as been so far during the early planning season. But I the thing about it is, I've never believed in blanket marketing programs. I've always felt that you should look at it on an individual basis on your farm ranch. You numbers for yourself and what you've got to accomplish, as far as in the year end and go with from there, you can always match trate up with a degree of, of risk. If you work at it hard enough, and long enough, if there's anyone fault that I think, farmers and ranchers tend to kind of drift today is they they'll spend seven hundred and fifty thousand for a piece of equipment, but they won't spend seven thousand of marketing advice and a second opinion on third opinion in some cases, but the younger generation, they seem to be a little bit more data to that type of the and they searched for information aggressively. Internet's is, which we didn't have, you know, twenty five thirty years ago. It's changed the way we analyze market decisions. I know the local elevator guy. You know, he he can't tell the farmer, what do you know, just give advice? Or are you in the same boat where, you know, I can give you plenty of advice. Of course at the very end. The farmers still has to be the one in that trigger. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. We hear about our trading. We tied match the, the program with individual certain customers are more risk tolerant than others. I mean, if you have eight or nine thousand acres, according to plant and price dollar cost average that up as a scale type situation, especially in this type of Margot where where you're making pretty big moves relatively quick because remember not the weather forecast changes rapidly and goes back to warmer drier lack of threats the market is going to get a pretty significant correction, real quick. So you're, it's very important that they pay attention this market today through the weekend because this is a very critical time for the knows what I'm saying is the critical time came earlier than expected. It's caught these funds completely off guard. Like what you said that if, if, if a weather market gums out with a different forecast or if the market can move on a different forecast. It can. I mean it can move almost as quickly or maybe his quickly as received right now in it could easily go in the other actions. Quickly reminds me what, what happens that pollination time and testing time on the weekends weather forecast and change a hundred eighty degrees in a matter of minutes and market can be shopping, higher or lower on, on Monday the next day. So this reminds me of that, as far as the, the way the market's moving so fast so quickly. It's interesting is, you know, for so long. We'd been a millstone around corn will Monday. We'd actually seemed to pull core and higher. And all three are behaving in this way right now. It's not like weed is, is putting a lead on, you know, like like you like like it has been in so many different occasions. That was a lot of short position there. And they, they beaten that market up so bad. You know, we lost quite a bit of export business because our competition with undercutting all the time, particularly out of the Black Sea region. That's an ongoing for several years and they've got a pretty good crop coming. So again, don't don't rest, too easy, and don't, don't take your eyes off the market this market can change quickly. But I still think the market is eventually going to flush out those funds short positions. I don't think they're done working them over yet. Market, Anna trade deal at the same time that is Katie bar the door, then do you think at least for a little bit technically? It looks to me like Maga wants to go higher. So, yes, I think you, you can buy more optimistic tariff situation and further bad weather. You're gonna take out the moving averages that have been providing resistance to the market and the happen rally sharply and fast just like move experienced this week. At least give him CA for Mexico and Canada. We can move to those important customers, Jimmy got scoot, though. We appreciate your time, fiber designed sometime love to buy you a tenderloin at the friendly, but for now just appreciate the conversation and you have a good week and I appreciate the offer. All right. Jim Bauer at Bauer trading, by the way, the eight hundred number national eight hundred number is eight hundred five three three eight zero four five Lincoln had a historic. Stop in zion's Ville gave a speech outside the back of train there. I think it was part of the presidential campaign back in the day. Look for farming livestock special edition, publising, June seventeen latest developments in livestock, as well as providing outlook for market prices, and meat consumption. If you have products or services for farmers place in ads today. You can call eight hundred six seven six two three five three iffy. Today. Ryobi days at the Home Depot by ryobi one plus two pack batteries starter kit for just ninety nine bucks, and get one of over twenty ryobi one plus tools to an eighty dollars value free. The one plus visit over a hundred and twenty five other ryobi tools. So now going cordless is almost endless by the battery kit, get a free to ryobi days now at the Home Depot. More stakes more doing about the nineteenth limit one per customer lost by last. Your old gas yard twos of met their match right now. The Home Depot has Memorial Day savings on ryobi's, forty volt cordless trimmer, and blower combo just one hundred fifty nine bucks. It has the performance of gas without the hassle. It's too powerful tools powered by a forty volt lithium ion battery platforms. And right now, it's at a price. No one can match today's the day for doing with ryobi's trimmer blower combo just one hundred fifty nine bucks. Only at the Home Depot. More saving. More doing. Value may twenty ninth supplies last. Dog markets are FD radio network. I'm to loss y'all key little direct talk market yesterday held steady. We've been steadied there for a little more than a week now fifty one to fifty seven dollars, one hundred weight sale market was a little weaker though. Fifty to fifty nine on lightweights fifty six sixty five on heavyweights like mooresville the top of thirty two Tuesday Packer had Fairview sale barn market continues. The week in a little bit live. Cattle futures have had multiple days of lower closes sixteen out of the last eighteen days. In fact, here's an average joy, Ceuta four is one nineteen to one twenty two and a half somehow yielding series one twenty four and a half the gap between selected choice that's spread continues to widen choice, one fifteen to one nineteen premium lights slaughter cows with the top of one sixteen the laws Yongki are fever. Network. People benefit from raising livestock here in Illinois risky bird, Illinois farmer president to the Eleanor farm bureau. Grownup, livestock farm was always interesting. And I enjoy it more today than I did back fans but it did give me the opportunity to have a good work ethic learned to get up in the morning and, you know, that was difficult during my senior days at high school and college stays headed tendency, not to go to bed and respectable our, but no, it was always enjoy on the farm and getting up before daybreak and Milkin the cows, the chores done, and go about the rest of the day's business. And we only farm bureau, along with beef porn milk, pork, and soybean association make up the livestock have been group supporting the Illinois in livestock sector or more information checkout. Eleanor, livestock dot ORG. Von dole is a professor at Illinois central college to your school in east PR just up the hill from the river and has starting summer classes, already, which is good. Because they haven't planted anything and fifty acres with, which the work and use a little bit of help as well. So students have some hands on this summer get some work done, but probably normally taking place in spring semester. But a big commitment to water quality with the studies that take place in those fields. What do they call study? And we started here, several years ago on the hillside of the property here, we have to field side by side kind of paired field study, where both fields have new tile lines put him three years ago. One fields far more co conventionally. No tillage corn and soybean rotation. The other field is pretty much not with cover crops every year and the tile lines done. Both have monitoring systems on the tile lines. So whenever there's water flow into Thailand. There's automatic water samplers. Pulling water samples out of those too, tight aligns, and then we analyze them for nutrient concentration to see the effect of the different practices on nitrogen phosphorus getting the tile lines. And then after the water leaves those fields and gets tested those field water flows through a bio reactor, which we do have, which has automated water sampling on it as well. And then the final step of that project is going to happen this summer, the entire fifty acres campus. Farm is going to drains into a twelve inch tile lane the campus and we're going to actually build the week of July twenty seconds this year. We're going to build a one acre, well, and that will filter all the water off all the fifty acres on the campus and again water sampling before. And after the well into study affective MRs. Well, what do you have to do to constitute that is a wetland is a constructed wetland? It was designed by the wetlands initiative, and they're, they're playing was Santana or Shia so they approved it as well. We actually had to get a couple of permits to build it while here on the campus and all taking place so accent, so that we can July twenty seconds and will actually build a well Welland. They'll be a big field day here. Several field days here during that week, the little bit of the public a couple of one of the agencies is going to be doing training session on designing and construction of Wellens. And then obviously the while built all seated and plugs of different. Well implants put into the. Well, and again, it'll have water sampling before, and after it, and he lost having automated water control structure in it, so that the basically the gate will be monitored automatically about the depth of the watering, the and then look control the water depth. So it should retain water pretty much year round to some degree unless they get super super drug giant delight August. But, but it should but so. Yeah. Well, big study studied the effectiveness of Wellens on nutrient move and water. How long did it take you to go through some of that paperwork progress process? Well, I mean, we had the initial idea, probably a couple of years ago to try this, I wouldn't have to pick. Her work was two huge. It was just getting approval from all the different entities that we needed to do getting approved through the college as well in making it fit into the overall plan of the of the future of the college. Well, do you have to go out there and read anything or how much of that information is, is delivered straight to you? But what happens is the water samples collected about once a week, and intern goes on and pulled all the water sample bottles out of the out of the all the samplers, and they shipped off to a lab to be analyzed. And then we results back from the lab on each of the each sample that was taken during that week is it's noticeable or I mean, have you been able to do it all in enough where you can specifically tell a difference on just don't -til as well as the cover crop side. Is there? Yeah. Yeah. The fields that are paired studied, we've been doing those now they've been running for two full over two full years and they show varies obviously by season a little bit. But there's pretty easily thirty to forty percent reduction in nitrates and stuff in the tile water between those two farming methods and cover crops being there's well, and other universities have similar projects to this one. That's kind of what their data's most of the data's pointing to a forty percent reduction on average of nitrogen. Not getting to the tile lines from just having a cover crop planted out there. And then on a year like this. I mean you drive has the field where you see, so much in the ditch even with not you see a significant difference of what's held in place by using the cover crowds. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I mean no. Till does help to some extent, obviously to Rosen. But there's a huge benefit to cover cropping out there on the erosion side. You can see feel side by side you drive around the countryside. You know, one guy ones got cover crops. One doesn't just a massive amount of difference of. Me and just been moved in one field versus the other does it have to be sloped like yours is to make it actually, I think. No, actually, there's a lot of soil moves for what we consider flat ground. The people don't realize there's much, much movement is what they're really is. So no. I think a huge benefit on flatter ground, even to have just something protecting that surface from wind and watery Rosen, both. And, you know, there's only so much stubble as we beings, anyway. So, you know, tilting, there's not a whole lot holding that sort of thing together. Yeah. Yeah. So I being only about two two and a half, tons of rather, on the surface usually by spring, a lot of that's some quite a bit of that's been broken down to some degree already. So it's not a super lot of protection there. Okay. Now. And, and at the same time you notice the difference just in how everything is holding moisture, you know, would would would would cover crops, once you get rid of them? Hopefully, does that make it easier to get in there faster? You think? Yeah. I mean if you look at what most most. Are saying if you look at most fields cover crops item, number one when he got his big rain events. Oh, much higher percentage or water will infiltrate into the soil versus runoff. So more than water is going to go in and voting, and then because of all the root systems actual routes. You have living plant growing there a lotta time. We're singing spring, the field where the cover crops still living will actually dry out quicker in the spring because you have those plants they're essentially sucking moisture out of the ground, you know, like the train transpiration place actually hoping. Presser Dila central college and also farmer himself. He has waist high cover crops, at this time cereal rye on his farm in Woodford downing, but he blames the bland, sweepings directly ryobi days at the Home Depot by ryobi one class to pack batteries starter kit for just ninety nine bucks and get one of over twenty ryobi one plus two up to an eighty dollars value free. The one plus visit over one hundred twenty five other ryobi tools. So now going cordless is almost endless by the battery kit, get a free to ryobi days. Now the Home Depot more stakes more doing about the nineteenth limit one per customer lost by last. For your old gas yard twos of met their match right now. The Home Depot has Memorial Day savings on ryobi's forty volt cordless trimmer blower combo just one hundred fifty nine bucks. It has the performance of gas without the hassle. It's too powerful tools, powered by forty volt lithium ion battery platform. And right now, it's at a price. No one can match today's the day for doing with ryobi's trimmer blower combo just one hundred fifty nine bucks. Only at the Home Depot. More saving. More doing value may twenty ninth while supplies last.
Pentagon's Former Top Intel Official: US, China Battle for Control of Industries of the Future
"This is the intelligence matters podcast with former acting director of the CIA Michael Morell sponsored by Raytheon. There is a difference between how the president talks about foreign policy and national security strategy. And what the administration actually does overall. I would give them reasonably good marks on the further dismantling, the global Jihadist threat. Both bell Qaeda's and organization and and. Isis. Strategic challenge is always been once you take them down can you prevent their reconstitution. And so the jury is really out on that. And that's nested in the broader Middle East strategy and south and central Asia strategy that they think there is some causing concern, particularly given the turbulence in the region. Administration strategy now is to put so much pressure on the Iranians by renewing sanctions that were able to get a better nuclear deal. What you see is the prospects of the success of that strategy right now, the Iranians, you know, have a lot of domestic challenges. And so this is an opportune time what more pressure on the challenge is whether we can rally the international community. I'm not confident that the, you know, just more sanctions of the type were envisioning will really lead to the outcome. Mike Vickers was the longest serving under secretary of defense for intelligence in history. He was only one of a few people to be nominated for presidentially appointed congressionally approved positions by both President Bush and President Obama Mike has had a truly amazing career in national security serving as a special forces officer in the military as a operations officer. And as the assistant secretary of defense for special operations. He is one of our nation's true experts on defense intelligence and national security. I had a chance to sit down with Mike to talk about the entire range of national security issues. We'll be right back with that conversation. After a word from our sponsor Raytheon. I Michael Morell, and this is intelligence matters. For over fifty years. Raytheon engineers have shaped tomorrow's world from space from nexgen. Imaging to breakthrough missile warning systems. Raytheon is putting ideas in orbit to make the world a safer place. Mike. Thanks for joining us today. It is great to have you on show. It's a pleasure. Congratulations on the podcast. Thank you so much. I should start by telling people acknowledging to people that you, and I are close friends which grew out of spending so much time together in the situation room and grew out of you. And I really seeing I on the importance of putting intense pressure on terrorist organizations. They were trying to kill Americans. Absolutely. So p people need to know that that you and I are friends here. Let me start by asking a question that I think many of our listeners will have what is defense intelligence, and how does that differ from national level intelligence or strategic intelligence, so many of the intelligence organizations that comprise the seventeen member intelligence community our defense organizations about half of them. So for big national agencies. His national security agency Defense Intelligence Agency, national geospatial intelligence agency and National Reconnaissance office, and then the intelligence organizations of the army air force, navy and Marine Corps tend to focus more on defense issues. But also provide a national intelligence in their respective domains NSA and the signals intelligence area and code making code breaking nj in imagery interpretation and mapping. And so when when you were the under secretary of defense for intelligence, all of the defense intelligence entities reported to you you are in charge of all of that. Yeah. I exercise the secretary of defense's authority direction and control over the defense intelligence enterprise, which comprised all those elements, but in the national intelligence realm shared that responsibility with deny Jim Clapper. And so some of the leaders of those organizations actually reported to. Both of you. Yes. Both to the secretary of defense through me. And then to the deny Mike, I know you're in the process of writing a book about your career, and I can't wait to read it, and we will have you back on the show when the book gets published to talk in detail about your time in government, and all the things you did what I'd love to do today is to concentrate on the world today what the US is doing it. As working with the US is doing it's not working what your advice would be for the government going forward on those things. But I did want to ask you a couple of career related questions. Just so people get a sense of who you are. And what you've done all without really taking anything away from your book. Sure. Because I know you're publisher wouldn't be happy about that. Sure. So your time as a operations officer was dominated by working on what is known as the Afghan program. Yep. The CIA covert action net provided support to the free. Adam fighters in Afghanistan, who ultimately drove the Soviet Union out of Afghantistan, and quite frankly, which played a significant role in the ultimate fall in my view Soviet Union. So you have that on your resume, which is really cool thing. In fact, you even have a character in the movie Charlie Wilson's war who plays you this really smart chess playing weapons CIA weapons expert. So that's really cool to have two questions about that time in your career. And the first is what role did you actually play in the program? Did you actually do? So I was formerly the ah program officer, which meant I was the principal officer within CA responsible for that program. Reporting up to officers with more senior responsibility, the chief of South Asian operations that had not only Afghantistan and Pakistan in the director of operations, but Iran Bangladesh, his boss in the near east and south. South Asia division to the the deputy director of operations to the director of Central Intelligence, and how long did you do that? I did that for two years and afford eighty six those were the decisive years when we decided to go for victory to drive Soviets out the strategy change was March of eighty five and then what was the strategy change. It was to shift from a strategy of imposing costs on the Soviet Union. But really without hopes of defeating them just making their intervention in Afghanistan expensive to actually driving them out. And this was codified in a national security decision directive top secret compartment, a directive at the time that since has been declassified a called NS DD one sixty six that I helped author and the change in strategy and led to a significant change in what you were doing your how you were doing it a level of what you were doing. Yes. So the there were additional resources provided. CIA about a fivefold increase in resources by Charlie Wilson, just before that and that triggered a strategic review of beginner agency review that I know you're familiar with and then the new strategy lead to additional resources so within the scope of a year the program increased by a factor of eleven times and the quantity and quality of weapons training and telling support everything went dramatically up culminating into decision to introduce the stinger of surface to air missile system in March of nineteen eighty six which is critically important because the Soviet helicopters were wreaking havoc. Right. So it it it along with a lot of other weapons really changed the air balance pretty significantly. But a lot of other things contributed as well. I Ron Isley the Soviets you may remember Mikhail Gorbachev came to power about the same time as our national security directive, and mar. Of nineteen eighty five and he escalated the Warri did his own surge like our rock and Afghantistan surges of recent years, but took his top general from eastern Europe and put him in there gave him one year to turn the situation around. So this was really a battle of surges in nineteen eighty five and we in the Afghan resistance one great success for the United States in the IRA, and well with the tragic, yes, it's the largest and most people say the most successful covert action program and CIs history, but not without its tragic consequences eventually leading to nine eleven. Yes. That's the other question. I wanted to ask you, and that is did we get the aftermath of that success wrong? Right. Did we not do some things that we should have done in Afghanistan post that success, right? Because a lot of some of those freedom fighters ended up being terrorists. Are there things? You think we could have done to have prevented that? That unintended consequence. I guess. Yeah. So it was a series of of the short answer is. Yes, I mean, we should have stayed engaged there. It was complicated. By the fact, that our main objection, I mean, militarily, you mean, politically politically diplomatically medically with aid and also an intelligence presence, and some security assistance. I don't mean militarily, but a couple things complicated that one Pakistan was on a path to developing nuclear weapons, and there was congressional legislation that when they crossed a certain threshold toward that goal and the president can certify that they hadn't crossed that threshold. We had a lot of aid to Pakistan, and it had to be suspended that occurred in nineteen ninety right as the right after year after the Soviets withdrew. But there was still the insurgency going on till nineteen Ninety-two in Afghanistan. Second as you know, the Berlin Wall fell eastern Europe was liberated the US government Bush ministry. Ration- became very focused on consolidating its gains in Europe. Historical gains at the end of the Cold War and thought Afghanistan and Pakistan was more a a regional problem. Everyone knew there would be continued civil war. How long it would take the resistance to win was a matter of some debate. But no, one imagined at the time that you would have this that it would become a sanctuary for globe, a new global Jihadist terrorist organization with with such tragic consequences for us, and then of course, the Soviet Union collapsed iced attorney lot toward Russia. Afghanistan. Went into a brutal civil war for some years before the Taliban merged in nineteen ninety six and then L Qaeda came. So we had several opportunities albeit difficult wants to at least they more engaged than we were. I think it was a lack of strategic foresight. And then also the second phase of this as the L Qaeda threat was developing take more aggressive. Action right across two administrations. Just the beginning of the Bush administration. But a lot of Clinton years where we looked at options really didn't do much other than embassies attacked us worship attack. Right. And so on. Was warning about this growing threat, but we didn't essentially didn't do enough. And it's one of the big lessons of counter-terrorism is, you know, not to let them build up a sanctuary for that period of time. We would I hope we would never make that mistake. Again. I mean, ask you one more question about the past before we jump to the issues of the day, Mike, you are one of the most nonpartisan people that I know, I'm your friend. And I really don't know if you vote more democrat or more Republican, I have no idea. That's how nonpartisan you are. But like me you found yourself stepping out of that nonpartisan role and endorsing Hillary Clinton. Why did you do that? I thought. She she was an effective secretary of state in the years that we served with her with the Bob gates the secretary of defense Leon Panetta. See I thought it was very very strong team the first bomb term, and I thought her foreign policy views based on that our national security views were more in lives tough with Mike traditional us. She was tough. And so that that really shaped my I, you know, I am not an isolationist. I believe the United States has to be engaged if a Republican had looked just like Hillary Clinton or slightly different, you know, different economic philosophy or something than I certainly would have remained neutral in that regard. You know, as you say, my tradition as more to be non non-partisan. But in this case, I thought it was easier. Have second thoughts or about doing that? Yeah. I was my first only and I have had to second. Thoughts about you know, his intelligence officers were trained to call it as as we see it. But then stop there. Right, right. Okay. The world today. Mike overall, how do you think? The Trump administration is doing dealing with the national security threats challenges that our country faces sort of what grade would you give the administration? And is there a difference in how you think about that grade between what the administration's actually doing and how the president talks about. It's how do you think about how you think in general about how they're doing? So I do think there is a difference between how the president talks about foreign policy and national security strategy. And what the administration actually does there. There are some fine people in the administration who are doing very commendable work, and you know, and as you know, a lot of the business of the US government goes on in the intelligence community, we continue to collect and analyze intelligence and same. Thing and prepare for conflict in the department of defense engaging opperations so overall I would give them reasonably good marks on the further dismantling, the global Jihadist threat. Both bell Qaeda's an organization and and ice. The challenge will really be the strategic challenge is always been once you take them down can you prevent their reconstitution. And so the jury is really out on that. And that's nested in the broader Middle East strategy and south and central Asia strategy that I think there is some cause for concern, particularly given the turbulence in the region with Iran, the other sort of Middle Eastern threat. I think we made a mistake across two administrations by not making life more difficult for them and the Russians and Syria. I think we missed an opportunity, and I think our hands off indirect approach to the conflict in Yemen has resulted in a lot of civilian casualties. And it's also produced indecisive. Results and therefore the Iranians with their proxy, the who 'this have have sort of hung on. So in terms of the concerns about Iran in terms of regional meddling. Don't think we've fully addressed that problem. I think new sanctions. Won't really address that in the same ways. Let's let's take these one in time Cisco back to kind of terrorism for a second how to use the the threat today from global Jihadist movement. How would you characterize the threat today, you know, ISIS has lost essentially lost its caliphate? But how do you think about the threat today? Yeah. So. As long as they don't have a a sanctuary and time where they can plot. Global attacks develop capabilities new technologies train operatives that typically is a year to a few year cycle unless they have them handy. And so that threat, I think has been diminished, the global Jihadist movement is either hanging on for dear life and various places or more dispersed, but they have footholds in a lot of different regions, North Africa and Libya, they still have cells in Europe in the Afghan Pakistan region, and then east as as Yemen East Asia, the threat has grown some in south East Asia, actually, which has been generally more dorm theater. So their ability to mount really sophisticated catastrophic attacks is certainly down, but not the threat of more local attacks in. In in several regions, and would you and the ideology, and when you agree that if we don't keep the pressure on them in all of these places that the risk of them developing the capability to attack us again is a real possibility. Yes, I think that that's what we learned that's relearned at the end of the day. And so it's imperative to keep the pressure on and that means leveraging our advantages in armed reconnaissance drone warfare, essentially. But also, the global network of partners that we built on all the intelligence and security sharing with these countries that allow us to more nip threats in the bud and that that's essential to keep the threat at manageable levels. And is your sense that the administration is doing a pretty good job on that? I think in terms of keeping the pressure on in terms of precision strikes armed reconnaissance. Yes. I think they're doing a pretty good job on that. In terms of an and. Doing to take some senior leaders off the battlefield some very important ones potentially in terms of sustaining the global network of partners, which is sort of the other side of it. I think the jury's out of it on that. Because we're we're telling our allies rather than racing them in some cases, right? We're gonna take a quick break to hear from our sponsor, then we'll be right back with more of our discussion with Mike Vickers. Do you hear that? That's the sound of night sky protected by overlapping network of Raytheon missile defense solutions across all tiers enabling all missions, our groundbreaking interoperable technologies are ready to detect track and intercept incoming threats to defend servicemembers and safeguard nations to connect vision with unparalleled precision Raytheon making the world a safer place. Okay. So back to Iran for a second. Were you a supporter of the Iran deal Iran nuclear deal? Did you have concerns about it? How did you think about it is both? I mean, I was a supporter at the end of the day because I think it was the in purely nuclear terms, I think it was the best option we had to retard their program for a reasonable period of time. So in that sense, I think is a narrow arms control agreement for all its faults in that area that it's not indefinite. It did bias sometime in that sense. It was successful in terms of not being part of a broader comprehensive Iran strategy where the pressure was taken off across the board. What pressure there had been before? Which probably wasn't adequate to begin with. Then I don't think it could meet its intent. And so I think that criticism is fair and terms of not doing anything to restrain their proxy activities. They're they're unconventional warfare. Two questions where you one is. I don't think any administration has pushed hard enough back on what the Iranians doing the region. I would agree with that. And my question is why do you think that's the case? Why have we not done that? I think it varies by. By case. So, you know, part of it, you know, if I go back to the Reagan administration where they started building his Bala and kidnapping and portraying our diplomats and and colleagues and the in the CIA being embalming embassy in Beirut marine, Barry marine barracks. Absolute right. You know, I think that was viewed as a very local conflict that if we disengaged the problem would go away and to some extent it did. But it was victory for Ron. And then I think if you look at the Bush administration, you know, there were just so many other things going on almost like Bush administration. Had we had her on around providing sophisticated ideas to Shia militia groups in Iraq that were killing Americans Gers, right? And not much of a pushback. Right. So for instance, we did things against them in Iraq. But right, we're hesitant about. Doing much more than that. Or certainly some cross-border things without going into details. And that puts you in the same kind of sandwich. We found ourselves in southeast Asia where you know, you draw the line of the conflict right here. And then you let the enemies on both sides treat you as a punching bag. I think this is a good PHD dissertation for anybody out there who who who wants to write about this. 'cause it's a it's a really fascinating thing that we haven't sufficiently pushed back for a long long time. But the strategy now right administration strategy now is to put so much pressure on the Iranians by renewing sanctions that were able to get a better nuclear deal 'em. We're able to change their behavior with regard to regional influence. What you see is the prospects of the success of that strategy. I think the goals are reasonable ones. I don't think the likelihood of successes all that. Now, though, the right now, the the Iranians, you know, have a lot of domestic challenges. So this is an opportune time to put more pressure on them. The challenge is whether we can rally the international community enough in particular Lee now that you have more great power interest in the Middle East, which we hadn't really had in the past couple of decades with Russia in an Russia's not going to do a lot to help the Iranian economy, but others others might in some regard. And so I'm not confident that the, you know, just more sanctions of the type were envisioning will really lead to the outcome. We want they've weathered a lot, you know in the past. And I don't see any reason to think that they couldn't I think it would take a combination of hitting them back harder and other places as well. Well as pressure, and then also importantly rallying the international community, which is much tougher today than it was say ten years. Yeah. You know, my thought it was always let's get the nuclear deal, and then let's turn the page to the regional interference. And put put you know internationally in a multilateral approach. Put as much pressure on them on the regional issues that we put on the nuclear issue, and I think those should have been entwined again. It was a different times, different adversary. Much more dangerous, but with the Soviet Union. That's precisely what we did in the nineteen eighties. Just because we did arms control agreements and some breathtaking ones that were very good things. We didn't take the pressure off in Afghanistan. We didn't take the pressure off globally or rallying our European allies etcetera. Exactly. All right, North Korea. Where do you think we are? So my I think, you know, tensions are down which is good North Korea's primarily a nuclear threat now on a growing one one that's made pretty dramatic progress in the past few years, both in weapons and delivery systems. I think the real danger for us in this is that we have started a process that diplomatically that may get out of control for us. We have very very ambitious objectives that are keyed denuclearization, very rapid denuclearization that are keyed to this a warming of relations. But it's not clear at the end that North Korea may be able to use this diplomatically to separate South Korea from us because South Korea looks like they're all in now on this warming of relations. And so if we decide wait, you're not fulfilling your end of the bargain, the train of may left the station at that point. And you may end up with a worse position in northeast Asian than we have now. So would you? Agree testing, the proposition as to whether this guy is willing to negotiate away. Nuclear weapons is worth it. Make sense. Yes. And the trick. Then as if he's not how do we how do we move forward that? And that's the complicating factor here, right and still retain your alliances and all your capabilities, and what your bat, do you think he's actually willing to negotiate away for a price or do? You think his intent is to hang on to at least some part of his program to sort of have his cake and eat it too. You think I think it's more cake and eat it too and then achieve other diplomatic objectives to me the price would have to be so high that doesn't have North Korea absorb economically absorbed by the south. You know, it just seems implausible in in regional terms or in US terms that we could sufficiently meet those demands, I mean, this is alternately his insurance card. So we may find ourselves back in situation at some point maybe not next week. Or six months from now or a year from now, but we may find ourselves back at some point in having to make a choice between living with this program or dealing with it militarily. Yeah. Now again on this reteach side. This is an area. Where deterrence does seem to work. I mean, you really have to have a madman theory to say that you know, because the the end result is obliteration for them. The weapons are useful to deter us from changing the regime. They're not useful for a bolt. Audible blue that then ends in the destruction of his regime. So I think there's a lot of ways this could turn out. And it's it's possible. There could be you know, a partial deal of some partial denuclearization lessening of tensions that still let them remain nuclear power. But with trying to achieve the goal of Becca more economic development that is that still puts us better off than we were before. But that will be pretty sophisticated diplomatic play to keep South Korea. Onside the Russians and Chinese who haven't always been helpful. Sometimes the Chinese are helpful sometimes not Russians less so to pull off. This diplomatic hatrick. Okay. Russia. How should we think about Russia and the threat that they posted the United States? And what should we do about it? So I think Russia's actually our most immediate threat right now and has been I think what they did and intervening in our twenty sixteen. Presidential election was a brazen. They really didn't care if they got caught in a lot of ways, I think it was quite successful. And they're still at it. And ironically, they're using American creations. The creation of an open global economy were money and things can flow freely. And then the and then innovation the event of social media to attack American weaknesses are polarization or economic dislocation and others to to heighten tensions that were already there. So, you know, in a way, it's that's a pro. And also it had the benefit of strategic surprise this really think wasn't on people's radar screens. And were they were having their biggest. Effect and social media. We weren't monitoring until too late. I don't think we'll make that mistake again. But at the time, I think all those things conspire to why I think it works. So well, you know, Russia. Russia's strategy is really to restore its great power status. It sees its primary aim as we can in its opponents in Europe and the United States it knows it really can't compete head to head. So they're engaged in the strategic attrition campaign. Mostly an intelligence war with us with a lot of their term for covert action as active measures to essentially weaken us to attack our will and our cohesion rather than our capabilities. That's probably what do we do about that? So it's a combination. I think of offense and defense were in this with the Europeans is fundamentally a political informational problem to rally people that you're being attacked, and you shouldn't like it. You know intelligence can play. Its role, and and and law enforcement in terms of discovery, and presenting evidence, it's naming shaming and certain cases. But it's also some elements of hitting back with various tools as well. You just can't play defense. The other side of Russian shrouded G is to, you know, fight wars largely on their periphery where they have time and space advantages or ethnic advantages, but then also in hybrid were both unconventional and conventional, but then escalate to the strategic level with threaten cyberattack or something else short of nuclear weapons that could bring the conflict to an end. We don't necessarily have a good answer to that. As a defense problem. That's it's something we need to work on both hutted defend very far forward or to to achieve deterrence. But also, then when they threatened to escalate because they know if the war goes on they will lose a how do we manage that escalation to where they can't? Declare victory and go home. Okay, China if Russia the most immediate, maybe China's the most long-term tally most challenging long-term. But how do you think about that? Well, ultimately, it's an economic and technological competition. Unlike the Cold War, you know, it's about who is going to be the global leader. I with the biggest economy out of that will come political influence, but then secondarily who is the most innovative Konomi in creating the industries of the future, and then a related risk of that is does some of those technologies that are also creating industries of the future biotechnology artificial intelligence, potentially quantum technologies and others. Do they have military affects that really can change the military belts? And so that's, you know, whether we're just in a competition, essentially peacetime competition for who's going to have more sway in the global environment conflict still deterred by nuclear weap-. Opens or limited by nuclear weapons. Or is there? Some breakthrough technologies that could really alter the balance and that sort of the twenty to thirty year problem that we have as a nation. How do we solve that challenge? And we're we're both taking very different approaches to that competition. Right. We're taking a market based free enterprise approach, and they're taking a state directed resource approach to this competition, right and combinations of intellectual property theft and state directed, and you know, she's ping said they want to dominate future biotechnology in artificial intelligence, whether they can do that or not. So how do you think this plays out alternate -ly? A really tough question. Well, it really turns China's had an economic miracle over several decades, that's almost unprecedented and economic history. And so whether they have bumps in the road or political bumps in the road that are associated with economic downturns. I think you know, remains to be seen at also I think is. Contingent on what's the nature of power and its relation to political stability and political cohesion in the future. So for example, you know, China has four times the population. We do is that an asset reliability. I think the jury is out depending on how capital intensive or technology intensive future industries or military power is and if you can't just as we see at home, if you leave people behind you get political consequences to that. So I don't have an answer to that. I just I believe it's our most important strategic challenge over the long Mike have been incredibly gracious with your time. Just one more question. Like, I was you were deeply involved in the raid that brought some bin Laden to Justice. And I know you'll talk in detail about that in your book. But what I wanted to ask you is what single moment in either the planning for the raid or during the raid. Or after the raid most stands out for you. Well, that's tough. But I can I can give you a few. So when I was one of the first people inside the US government to be read in on the intelligence in early late summer early fall of twenty ten by you as a matter of fact with the vice chairman, I was really struck at the intelligence case at that point still circumstantial, but a lot of evidence pointing that Thurs really something there. And so that was neat moment in my office, actually. Adrenaline really went up. And then the same thing when we were directed to start planning options operational options that Christmas time, it's the first time. Really? I just didn't enjoy Christmas with my family and wanted to get back right to work and work on those options. Then I remember our first meeting on options with President Obama where he said, we're gonna do this. We're going to do it sooner rather than later, and we're going to do it unilaterally and the White House situation room, and we we're still I guess six eight weeks away from actually doing the operation, but I thought holy cow. We better is this. This is going to happen. It's going to happen. And then I guess the final moment was, you know, you know, all the things can go wrong from our experience with Iranian hostage rescue attempt and others. But once we knew what had happened that first helicopter that had landed and the seals got out. I thought the only question remaining at that point was. Whether he's there or not, and we're gonna that and then minutes, and and so I felt a real science relief. When I when I saw the helicopter hadn't been shot down are happy for landing banding or troops had gotten out. And then and now will know. All right, Mike, thanks for being with us. Sure. Great pleasure. That was Mike Vickers. I'm Mike morale. Please join us next week for another episode of intelligence matters. This has been the intelligence matters podcast with former acting director of the CIA. Mike morale. Sponsored by Raytheon the podcast is produced by Olivia gases. Jamie Benson and Claire Himes. If you haven't already subscribe rate and review or ever you download podcasts you can follow the show on Twitter at Intel matters pod and follow Michael at Michael Jay morelle intelligence banners. Production of CBS News Radio.
Takeout Outtake Especial: Christopher Krebs
"It from CBS news. This is the takeout with major Garrett. Oh, how about you enjoying this? A lot is the answer to that question because this is your Tuesday takeout out, take a special. I major Garrett. You already knew that chief White House correspondent CBS news, author of the most amazing book here. It is folks Mr. Trump's wild ride in case you forgot the title. How could you if you're a regular listener this program? Because I am marketing that relentlessly annoyingly is another word you might being being being make you Mr President, our guest, Chris crabs, big title, big, big title. Here. It is under secretary for the department of homeland security's national protection and programs director at the end p p essentially critical infrastructure. We talked a lot about election security now we're going to have some fun. So Chris, we have what we like to call three threshold questions. We ask every single guest of the takeout audience loves the answer, so they have to be decent questions and they are in order. You can take them in any order, but I'm going to ask you them. In this one. One of the most influential or the most influential book in your life all time, favorite movie or one of your favorite movies, and if you're on a long flight or a long drive, what kind of music artists or Gina are you most likely to listen to? So let's start with the music. It's flights or long drives. I, you know, the right in in the morning, that's that's NPR, but long flights Americana all rock type stuff. You know, Texas red, dirt music. It's it's a little something not to get the heartbeat in too fast right up. You know, sun always tend to be one of my favorites. Excellent. Is there a Texas connection for you? No, no, no. It's more than music. I grew up in Georgia, Georgia, Atlanta. Okay. On my, my folks are from Alabama. So you know plenty of the deep south in there, but I've kind of gravitated musically to candidate Austin and other parts of Texas seen very good move. Movie the movie that you know there are a couple movies at if they ever come on in the, you know, at midnight or one AM help guests who have struggled with this. I'm like, all right, you're at home, run through the closer. This is anything World War Two related it. It's on and it saying on between a bridge too far and patent battle, the bulge, yeah, Yep. Yep. Those are the movies that I just I'm fascinated by the the the, the people of the time and their commitment. I mean, this is the same thing when I think about where we are right now, particularly post two thousand sixteen election when we mobilized as a country to push back on a threat like we did in World War Two. I see us in the same spot right now. I am seeing this government. This industry we are mobilizing we're starting to coordinate better than I think we've ever seen in two thousand sixteen was a galvanizing moment. It was like it was a reminder that there are a nation state adversaries out there, right? And it's not necessarily bullets and bayonets and planes it cyber and other things. That's right. Yep. Those are the threat yet. No, it's cyber in it is in some cases it information. Right? Who has it who suspending and winning? How's it being weaponized? Yep. And is it information at all or is it disinflation. Right, right. It's the pathways. It's our trust in the things that we that we, the apps we pull up every day and how information is being presented to us. We have a long way to go in terms of rebuilding resilience, rebuilding critical thinking. I we're gonna get into this little bit because I think it's an important topic because it feels to me and I'd like your observation on this because you've worked in this world for a good number of years. That with technology, I came novelty, isn't this a wonder? I we had the phone that was a novelty and look at all the cool things in it. Isn't that a novelty in all felt both delightful and benign, we're having to reprogram ourselves or at least re think through whether these things are more than just a novelty. And if they're ever if they ever really were benign. Right. What are your thoughts on the philosophically and just practically so look in the innovation economy? I, the market tends to get the the biggest reward. Security is not always baked in bydesign. We're increasingly getting to that space. We're seeing some things that the state of California just passed a security law. The Brits are doing some work on IOT. We we're what is t information internet of things the internet of writing right now. I think the average person right now has twenty seven some odd connected devices in their home, and a lot of the times you may not even know you don't know what those devices are or were you. You may have entered in that wifi password, and then you completely forgot their an internet connected. So the the way that we are moving, I think it's like two hundred billion. I o t devices by twenty twenty. It's the the information landscape is just exploding, right? But again, security practices are not always top of mind on the developments because it's because we're still hooked on the novelty and the enjoyment and the experience and to some soc. Sciences scientists would say, we're kind of becoming addicted to all these things. Right? So so security awareness has to be at the top of a top of mind, and that's both at the consumer space. So when when we go out and buy stuff, you know, is the password unique to that device or is there a hard coded admin password that we can't change? I'm, you know, I would recommend not buying that hard coded. Adleman password device. Right? So we got a little bit off. Yeah. I say this is a funny game said that was, but that's heavy. That's a good. It's a good topic, and you're an excellent person to at least give us some general thematically as to think about it, influence your book in your life. So these days the books that I'm reading have, don't have a lot of words their kid books right. Explain why. So I've got four kids and other one on the way they're all under eight at this point or eight or younger. So I've got the books I read are are fascinating, fascinating books, you know, I got to say that. I think the book that that shook me the most lately I'll say so maybe not formative. The book that really shook me the most lately was ghost fleet in that was by singer and not Sanger, but singer. Yes. And it was about supply chain compromise cybersecurity events. I mean, you look at the GAO report recently. These are things that on DOD vulnerabilities j. o. government accountability office and department of defense. Yeah, and and it wa- it's, it shows that. Cyber security vulnerabilities that supply chain vulnerabilities can truly be something that brings down in a Konami brings out a government brings down. Military brings down a critical infrastructure fiction. It was a fictional book, right? But nonetheless it rooted in some basic reportage or understanding of these chur and but also dependencies how we are so dependent upon technology and a supply chain that we don't necessarily have full visibility into in in that, you know, those are the things that we work through everyday at d. h. s. so one of the things to do when I have someone who has spent a portion of his her career and government is ask, is there any movie that you liked that you think it's the government right. Oh boy. Yes, there are. I'm trying to think of the one that thirty as as an answer. We sometimes get about the bin Laden raid and kind of the intricacies and how it worked. That's yeah, I, I think that's for sure. I know what I'm going to have to take a pass on this. I heard you like to, oh God the die hard movies the the. Yeah, it's my favorite. My favorite Christmas movie for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it wouldn't be white Christmas. It wouldn't be. It's a wonderful life, but be die hard. Yeah, I know, absolutely believable. Generally, it depends on which one I the first one I, you know, yeah, you argue with that right. The first real action movie. It is a, it's a holiday favorite in my house alongside Christmas vacation. I'm sure the five year old really Dixit haven't. He hasn't seen that. Yeah, it's it's a good one though. Very good, Chris, Crips. Thanks so much for your time. This has been your Tuesday takeout outtake, especially, I will see next cue for more from this week's conversation. Download the takeout outtake espec- out Tuesday morning wherever you listen to your podcasts. The takeout is produced by Arden Faren Kateyana crescendo and Jamie Benson CBS end production by Alexandra layer guile and Eric SU, sonnet follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at takeout podcast. That's at takeout podcast. And for more visit takeout podcast dot com. The takeout is a production of CBS News, Radio.
Teachers Begin To See Unfair Student Loans Disappear
"Support for NPR and the following message come from Dulles International Airport with the highest on time takeoff percentage of any airport on the east coast. I a d means I'm already departing more at fly, Dallas dot com slash fast. When the two thousand teachers and counting have just had a mountain of student loan debt lifted off their backs. This follows reporting by NPR that exposed a nightmare for public school teachers across the country in exchange for green to work in low income schools, aspiring teachers could get so called teach grants from the US department of education to help pay their way through college sounds good. But those grants meant to be free money in exchange for service, we're often unfairly turned into loan sometimes upwards of twenty thousand dollars when December the education department proposed a fix and now that has been expanded to reach even more teachers here are NPR's Chris Arnold. And Corey Turner, the trouble at the heart of the story. Is that small paperwork problems triggered catastrophic consequences for many teachers, the rule said teachers had to send in a form every year to prove they were teaching. But if they sent that form in one day later, it was missing a signature a date or any little problem. There grants were turned into loans, and that was irreversible. We've been following one teacher Kaelin McCollum and for her and her husband that more than twenty thousand dollars in debt that they never plan for and couldn't afford and her small teacher's salary and Tennessee, they also had a baby on the way, but with this fix if teachers can prove they've been teaching like McCollum can they'll get their grants back McCollum. Got her official Ed department letter a few Saturdays ago, she opened it in the car as she and her family began a spring break vacation. Here we go. He whereas this, congratulations. Louis. Can you say, yeah. According to previously unreleased numbers from the Ed department almost six thousand teachers have now applied for help. And of those so far twenty three hundred have been approved and their loans are getting turned back into grants. And the department says fewer than twenty teachers have been denied. So the vast majority who apply for help or getting it is just taking time to process all the applications. Diane, our Jones is acting under secretary and acting assistant secretary at the department from internal reports from the work that you did it was abundantly clear to us that there was a problem with teach grants. It turns out Jones served in the same role more than a decade ago when the rules known as regulations or rags were first written. We realized that there were certain things that seem like a good idea when we wrote the rank, but they were just too cumbersome for students and unfairly so and so beyond the initial fix for the teachers who got hurt the department is now. Making other big changes to for example. The department has agreed that grants should no longer be turned into loans just because of later incomplete annual paperwork. So what's the new rules are finalized district? Coney penalty that's been at the heart of a lot of these problems. It'll be gone. The department is also committing to help teachers who had their credit hurt hanging over this process, though has been one thorny question. What to do about teachers who lost their grants and then decided to change schools or quit teaching altogether on the phone? I cried at one point because I was like this isn't right. You know, it's not fair, Victoria, lib sack taught for three years in a low income Phoenix school, but her grants got changed loans because of paperwork when her husband got into grad school, they moved and since she'd already lost her grants lip sack took a job at a school that doesn't qualify. The problem is that teachers need to complete their required teaching service within eight years, so even with the initial fix many teachers. Who changed schools like lip sack or left the classroom wouldn't have had time to finish? In February libs at came to Washington DC to share her story with the government committee tasked with rewriting these rules living on a teachers salary at a low income school had just enough to live. I love teaching, but I felt overwhelmed and feed it when my grant was converted that rules committee heard lip sack. And in a surprise move voted to expand the fix to include teachers like her it's now resetting the clock back to when teachers lost their grants that should give lip sack five more years to complete just one more year of required service. Yes, she'll need to change schools to qualify. And she says that's not ideal. But it will mean she doesn't have to pay upwards of twenty thousand dollars in loans. Now, I'm feeling really hopeful. Not only that she says she finally feels listened to firm me as a teacher. It's awesome. Because then I can convey that to the students and say, hey, you do have a voice you are. Our citizens like you have a role in our government. The fix itself has had some problems. Many teachers have told NPR that some call center staff seemed unfamiliar with the new rules, and that the paperwork they're sent even after they got approved is really confusing advocates also worry that the department won't do enough to reach out to teachers who need help. Patrick Llewellyn is an attorney at Public Citizen litigation group there is relief available for these teachers, but they need to know about it. Overall, ninety four thousand teachers of the grants taken away. It's unclear how many of those were unfair. The department says it is reaching out to teachers it believes may qualify for help. It also encourages teachers to reach out themselves. More details on that at NPR dot org slash teach. Grant, Diane our Jones at the department says she wants teachers to know the education department is now determined to make things right? And how sorry we are. We've put teachers who didn't deserve the stress this. Pressure this financial burden in a position that is frightening and confusing, and I can't give them back. Those years that I can't take away the grey hairs, and I can't take away the stress it seems like a small thing to do to say, I'm sorry. But I'm very sorry. And we want to work to fix it. And correct it for Caitlyn McCollum and her husband driving off with their son on vacation. She's just happy. This ordeal is finally over and that she has her grant money back. Two years of fighting this. Free bathing. For NPR news. I'm Chris Arnold. An encore Turner.
America Has Failed
"Ads are everywhere on the Internet, and sometimes you'd like them not to be so prevalent you understand maybe you have favorite websites, you go to like the Atlantic Vox daily beast and slate you understand that adds pay the bills but also so many of them denigrate the reading experience. Well, I'm here to tell you about scroll scroll lets you read those publications among hundreds of others without being interrupted by ads or being tracked by marketing companies and places like slate light gets lead is a partner. Of Scroll, slayed actually makes their money via scroll and doesn't have to inundate you with ads. Your membership directly funds the site you read. So they don't have to rely on serving you ads sign up for a thirty day free trial no credit card required at scroll dot com, slash the gist, and experience a better internet scroll dot com slash the gist the following podcast maybe a little dirty but forget about that. Going to tell you to go to our twitter feed at slate just dot com. It's Monday August twenty twenty from slate. It's the gist I might ask. Greenfield Central Junior. High. School. Junior greenfield central junior high school closed the parents of a student whose test results were pending thought it was a good idea for him to await those results in a classroom turns out. It wasn't. So the school shutdown out of concerns for Corona virus there back open now, and they're hoping for the best that student's name by the way you in assessment s no. No I'm joking he was the New York. Matt who quit without notice Milwaukee brewers Lorenzo Cain did the same thing these professional athletes worth millions have the ability to walk away because they are a little concerned with the official position of their employer's let's hope for the best. Because hoping for the best, not really working out now I talk about baseball maybe too much on the show but to me, it's a useful insight as to what the lay person or the not particularly well informed leader things have corona virus and the answer is not enough with pronouncements like I'm not a quitter which was said by Major League Baseball's Commissioner Rob Manfred. When you say things like that, you convince me, you don't understand the outbreak you don't understand the pandemic. Now we have two teams with dozens and dozens of players who were infected with corona virus, and in each case, the teams hoped for the best and maintain that fighting spirit motivated, thinking plus scientific. Leading to bad decisions. These aren't Republican politicians are particularly partisan people who are making these bad decisions. They're just generally not well informed Americans falling back on what usually works, which is something like the ethic of toughing it out. It's not the wrong ethic for all situations. It is wrong for this situation public schools everywhere cognizant that there is, of course, a great cost to not educating students are being optimistic, which is to say in many many cases long they're being wrong. Because they want to open but they really shouldn't want that and they really should know that they shouldn't want that some schools will be able to open without breaks, but it will not be possible in most of the nation's largest cities. Here's how it goes. We can't fully open because we have not done the work we have not done to work to open, and we need to accept that there is point to thinking everything will work out with schools and the virus. Because everything does not work out with the virus we have not done what we needed to do. One thing we needed to do was put in a proper contact tracing regime we failed we'd utterly failed and we need to admit it. We failed because well, big reason is that there is a huge lag between testing and results and you can't really contact with this huge gap in knowing who might be infected. Why is there this huge gap because there's still a massive? Outbreak why is there still a massive outbreak both things like because there were no masks because there was complacency because there was poor science from the top bad luck and also actually wraps around itself because there was a lack of a good contact tracing regime. We still think we can fail and fail and fail and Fail on all these vital important metrics, and then in the end say don't worry we'll figure it out. We'll do something to overcome our stream of failures. What we are doing is we are relying on a stupid unfounded hope you call it optimistic, but it's not working. It's flop domestic now if you want to say, okay but what about the students who don't have devices and don't have Internet access who don't have parental resources which free them up to learn? Yes that is horrible and that is a failure to we could have. Addressed, at least some of the technological portions of the students but we have not, and once again we failed we do need to admit we fouled doesn't mean the failures permanent but the failure Israel and the failure is now there's no way massive school districts will reopen without causing more spread of the virus could have done something we did. Why are we always think that's okay. Why do we think we could be stupidly hopeful that the virus will go away in April and then be stupidly hopeful that it won't spread too hot states and then be stupidly hopeful that this or that drug will work or be stupidly hopeful that we could contact trace and then be stupidly hopeful that we need to do anything real and different by the time schools open. And expect to have no impact. We just do the next stupidly hopeful thing and convince ourselves that will dig us out of the last stupidly hopeful thing. Yeah. That's just working. Great so far. Schooling doesn't seem to have worked I don't mean our plans to open schools. This fall aren't working I mean that are means of acquiring knowledge through experience as people as a culture. We're also stupidly hopeful and we continue to be that way unabated. You know maybe putting the young people in the schools run by the stupidly hopeful adults to inculcate them in the stupidly hopeful ideology isn't the best idea. You may differ that again, you may be stupid or hopeful or that horrible combination of the two. I am an optimistic person I. Am you might say hopeful person but before I am optimistic or hopeful, you know what? I am primarily fundamentally a not stupid person a stupid pessimist especially in advance society that person could survive. It's not a fun life, but it does tend to avoid calamity, but you can't be both stupid and hopeful and expect to thrive not just within classrooms but within cultures. On the show today spiel about the case of Pentagon appointee Anthony Data I can confirm that you won't be confirmed that is trump's and around unaccountability. It earns half a star on the Tony Tape player Raider but I Kurt Andersen is the founder of spy magazine the erstwhile host of Studio three sixty the author of many bestselling books including fantasy land how America went haywire his New Book Is Evil Geniuses The unmaking of America put all the works together and you have a thesis. America. Is a land of great delusions filled with people great indifference to the actual schemes occurring under their noses because they are overly obsessed with these supposed schemes occurring beyond their sight. It's a pretty compelling point and a fairly disturbing one Kurt. Anderson up next. So, there are a lot of home security systems that offer all the bells and whistles, and I, mean that literally maybe even more than literally chimes lot of whales and maybe there are a lot of ways to enter codes here remotely may maybe people you could talk with on the other end, maybe fancy installations schemes that they have to send someone to. The House to install but here's the thing if you need to do all of that and you can't even get your mind around how your own security system works. Then it's not working well for you a home security system. That's so complicated that you never use. It is no security at all. Now think about what the opposite of this would be. It would. Be Simple and it would give you safety which brings me to simply safe. Simply safe's whole reason for being is to fight against the overly complicated and overly expensive security system and to keep you and your home safe. Simply safe was named the best overall home security of twenty twenty by US News and World Report and there are no outrageous monthly fees. There's no need to sign some two year contract. It's in the box you put the sensors up like I did it works well, like it does in my house every night head to simplisafe dot com slash gist, and get free shipping and a sixty day money back guarantee that simplisafe dot com slash gist to make sure they know that the gist sent you. Incurred Anderson's last book fantasy land. He pointed out that America. We're taking in by Wackadoo theories. This is a flaw characteristic of America. Now in his New Book Evil Geniuses, he points out that there's something in the American character that is susceptible to just that we empower these evil geniuses to essentially run roughshod over the interests of most Americans I smell trilogy I don't know what the third book is going to be, but here's what Kurtz doing book by Book. He's essentially defining. American exceptionalism because when people use the phrase I think you might think it means Oh. WHAT MAKES AMERICA BETTER BUT AMERICAN exceptionalism there. These weird things about America like this high violence rate unusual in the Western world in Curtis put his finger on two phenomena that seemingly are applicable to American. Also dragging its down Kurt Anderson joins me once more thanks for coming on Kurt always my pleasure to talk to you in any format for any reason Mike I'm delighted to be here and it's funny that you say that a trilogy I don't think so I think this is it a friend of mine said, Oh you've written a two volume history, the functioning of America. Between fantasy and evil genius. So it did come out of thinking about and then talking endlessly to you and others about fantasy realize that that was kind of half the story you know that was the. Cultural and and crazy thinking magical thinking. Loving. Exciting falsehood part of America has been around for hundreds of years and. became an acute illness after being a chronic condition and last few decades, and there was this other part this very rational highly rational group of people who did what they wanted to do more or less simultaneously starting fifty years ago to take over the economy and get richer and more powerful and try to keep it that that way. So. Okay. So it's not the case that the conditions laid out in fantasy land because it wasn't so much about certain people. It was about background condition, the culture of America. So it's not necessarily case that fantasy land was the soil and these are the flowers. It was more to concomitant occurrences that you're putting your finger on right one one, the other one was more or less contained in the bloodstream from the get go five, hundred years ago. This one didn't have to happen this way we were in my theory of the case we were doing better and better and getting more and more fair along with the rest of the developed world or most of the last century tell. The nineteen seventies and then the nine hundred, eighty s when we went one way because these guys. decided they wanted us to and the rest of the ritual went the other way, and so it is another version of American exceptionalism wishes to say we are exceptionally peculiar and more and more different from the rest of the rich world. This was done to us. We winked ourselves we were hoodwinked and the other one just happened. Alas the fantasy land problem was yes. Out of the soil whereas this was a very deliberate piece of agriculture by the rich. Right and big business. How are the evil geniuses that you're writing about different from just the general notion of plutocrats want to attract power what specifically about this specific group makes them sets them apart the fact that they did what they did when they did it that I being in my being a young man in my twenty s in one thousand, nine, hundred look. While Reagan's been elected. Wow, that's surprising. Interesting. I hadn't realized that ten years before that they had built this set of institutions to do what needed to create this paradigm shift to convince the American chattering class and Americans in general that read was good and market value of the only guys that matter and all the rest. So they had such a long game I mean. They are geniuses I. They are brilliant and I think there's a lot that the left can look at that happened in the last two years as a chronicler in this book and say, Wow, they really knew what they wanted kept their eye on the ball and play for the long run. So That's how they're geniuses in wasn't just business guys. It wasn't just University of Chicago intellectuals. It was all of them doing what they did. Best. It was like different like the Air Force Army and navy in this whole class war that they came together. I'm not suggesting a crude conspiracy that they is a nineteen seventy and said, okay, let's do this. This is what we're doing in then did it however During the seventies and into the eighties, it amounted to some more of a conspiracy than I imagined was possible because as you know as you know in Fantasyland hi, it's been a lot of time saying conspiracy theories they're nuts. It's part of our part of our downfall. Well, they were evil geniuses because they really had a tactical vision and stuck to it and stuck to it and stuck to it in a way that. I mean, they didn't even have the crisis that the Great Depression was to say, okay now we're GonNa take advantage of this they had kind of half baked bad times crazy inflation oil crisis all that in the seventies that they used. It wasn't one of those cases where will yes they took advantage of this existential national crisis and then took over and hijack. The economy no that also makes them more genius and more evil. So who are they? Who is chief among the architects of the economy? We live this society we live in. Now a Milton Friedman is certainly one of them. He and his libertarian cohort were were really on the outs until the nineteen sixties and the sentence. So he was one of them the the otherwise. UNMEMORABLE supreme. Court Justice Lewis Powell wrote this extraordinary memo laying out the plan in Nineteen seventy-one. He's one of them certainly Charles Coke his brother brother as well. Several other of the billionaires are among them. There are lesser known people like the two guys and started the Heritage Foundation Robert Bork again, who I only knew as he was the guy that being. The right put him up to be a Supreme Court justice in one thousand, nine, hundred seventy was far more of one of the evil geniuses in far more influential in all kinds of ways than I knew until I did my research about antitrust about. As as we know about the reading of the constitution that gives the right everything they want originalism textual was he was one Robert Bartley who was the editorial page editor of the? Wall Street Journal starting in the early seventies was definitely one of them crystal the former socialist. Turned right winger Bill Kristol's father is one of them. The young people who started the Federalist Society Definitely, Alan Greenspan, Mike Milkin, rush limbaugh, grover norquist's Rupert Murdoch I could go on. Yeah. It's so interesting. I'm fascinated by the Powell memorandum the years nine, hundred, seventy one, and this guy who's about to join the Supreme Court. But not in a particularly distinguished way writes this memorandum and it really does lay out the blueprint for what the economy is. To become what the memo does and lays out is sets the foundation or at least describes presciently describes the era where now some call it lake capitalism some call at hyper capitalism there's usually a lot of pejorative names, but the fascinating thing about it is it was commissioned by the Chamber of Commerce. It was the most mainstream institutions that were articulating what would be this you know extreme form of capitalism we're suffering now I wonder what that means. You're absolutely right and of course, it was also the most mainstream corporate figures the CEO's of Berry biggest corporations who've got together at that same moment and said the Chamber of Commerce. They're not really doing the job. We gotta get together and have a all just the two hundred dollars to get this thing right and be politically militant. So I think in a funny way as I write about in this is one of the things they did was take what had become the spirit of the sixties and early Seventies. The the confrontational all of that and decided wait we don't need to be these boring quiet CEO's and intellectuals and business guys anymore. We can get out there and go wild in the streets. So I think it's hard to overstate how freaked out a lot of them were as the EPA was suddenly created and ocean suddenly created and business was bad and gigantic majorities of Americans thought business was bad and unfair and. Didn't think they thought necessarily, you won't believe where we're going to get by nineteen ninety maybe some of them but I think they really felt like, oh. My God this is the fight of our lifetime. This is an existential battle, and then they just kept winning anyone beyond their wildest dreams. So I think that's why it was so extreme and it was extremely in a way that they hadn't been i. mean the Labor Movement Back in the thirties and forties obviously had been organized in a class based organization to get wealth shared more. Workers, and and so they finally in so many ways took up that they look backwards look. Labor movement. Oh look what's Libertarians of done Oh, look at these left-wing law firms and consumer welfare things. Do that so that they did it because their corporate guys and Organiz they've really well really rapidly and kept at it. So. How do we go back? How do we had people sees the power or how does the culture? You right so much about how the culture is on this one track that both parallels and ignores the economic realities. But what is the prescription since we still live in a more or less functional democracy maybe a little less than more. What is the prescription for the people saying this sucks. To what America should be and what it was for decades and decades. Well, the reasons I wrote geniuses was to show that In living memory as a nineteen seventy sex let's say the bicentennial year things were pretty good. We got an antitrust system that work pretty well, we had a judiciary that had not been taken over by ideologue. We had taxes that were reasonable rather than craze low on rich people in. Business. So, in living memory, it was working. Okay. So it's not like Oh we have to become Denmark tomorrow. Now, we ought to look to become one of the nordics tomorrow in my view, but it was working pretty well. So so how we do that I, leave that to the I think that she probably won't be Vice President or President but Elizabeth Warren whatever her weaknesses or strengths as a candidate were are in my view had it rights and what was wrong and done is though is always been like this and because. We started growing less fast came in a ditch. We were steered into a ditch and the driver's hopped out got in their limo and drove off I'm an elder telling you young people that it wasn't always this way and what looks radical now was the way I mean in terms of tax rates and I trust aggression and all the rest was the way it was Intel forty years ago. That's one way to get there and I think God knows you look at the hauling numbers on seventy among people but he not just young people when they pull about universal basic income or what the ideal fairness of. Disagree should be this country on economics is a lot more left than it knows. So many of the evil geniuses you write about had tactics and strategy and they saw themselves as part of a movement and they probably define themselves not as evil but as people who are huge cheerleaders for capitalism and certainly conservative maybe Republican now we have the new strain of. Evil Geniuses, the tech geniuses who there are exceptions Peter thiel among them. Elon Musk is on the sanity political spectrum. But now a lot of these tech bros. see themselves as like good liberal people does that change anything much if the inheritors right of the evil genius mantle want to at least see themselves and literally put in their mission statement don't be evil. CanNot have any effect I'm not hopeful on that front of. facebook and Google are now the largest company in. Apple. For that matter. The largest companies that ever existed in real terms young inflation-adjusted. So and they are benefiting as no company has benefited in this country since the nineteenth century from being monopolies effectively monopolies. So the don't be evil and yeah, we're nice liberals here in Silicon Valley know that doesn't give much hope for changing because this term that started being used in the seventies I'm I'm socially liberal but fiscally conservative which meant like keep my taxes super-low and let me have as much power in my business as possible. But if you WANNA, be gay you WANNA smoke week sure. Well, that isn't what we need and that was part of the by off for the last two years is is allowance. For personal liberty up the Wazoo from guns to weed. But no, I'm not hopeful really when people like Mark Zuckerberg as awful as he is in something West do suggest that well, we're going to need something like a universal basic income because we're going to eliminate all the jobs that there are those aren't his exact words but I at least those guys because they face faxon our engineers and can run the numbers. They see that we are not going to be creating enough jobs that are economically. Make sense to pay people decent incomes. They understand that at least they're happy to go to the next phase of digital feudalism, but they're at least willing to entertain the idea of paying serfs. Well, you know Yeah Kurt Andersen is the author of the nonfiction works the real thing reset fantasy land, the purported nonfiction work. You can't spell America without me with Alec Baldwin and now Evil Geniuses also founded spy and the studio three sixty don't they don't even make it in his bio. Thank you so much. Is there something that interferes with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals? Better help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. You could connect in a safe from private online environment, which is to say all the environments these days. So you're probably used to it, but it is quite convenient and you can start communicating with the therapist and under twenty four hours center message to a counselor anytime, and you'll get a timeline thoughtful response. or You could just schedule every week of video a phone session they have licensed professional counselors who specialize in depression anxiety navigating family conflicts on a lot more, they're committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches. So they make it easy and free to change counselors. If needed anything you share with the counselor is confidential and if you're not happy for any reason, you could request a new one at any. Time at no additional charge in fact so many people have been using better help that they are recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states start living a happier life today as a listener, you'll get ten percent off your first month by visiting better help dot com slash gist over one million people taking care of their mental health. Again, that's better help H. E., l., p., dot com slash gist. And now the Spiel have you heard the case of Anthony Data I'll tell you now there'll be no time later. So tatum was trump's pick to be the under secretary of Defense for policy the third highest ranking official at the Pentagon and therefore requiring Senate confirmation. But tate his name was withdrawn before his hearing. For reasons we'll get into and what's happened to take is notable which we will also get into but before we. Go any further with data data. I think it's important to announce that his name is Anthony. Tater I looked into it was kind of hoping it would be Tony Totta because then we could look at him as a political Pinata who the trump administration tried to give its Ramada to try to elevate him beyond persona non grata, but it's not it's not Tony Todd Anthony Tatum Anthony Taylor a former brigadier general mounted a fairly successful. Career as an author kind of cut rate, Tom Clancy military novels. He also served as the Superintendent of a north, Carolina School district some contentiously. But then he became North Carolina's secretary of transportation by most accounts fairly successfully it was all a pretty good career for data. He showed leadership he showed the ability to work with him bureaucracies and compared to many if not most of the trump administration's appointees it. Indicated at least some qualification for the position that he was up for however within the last two years, data embarrassed himself by claiming on twitter that radical Islam was quote the most oppressive violent religion I know of that Barack Obama was quoted terrorist leader who did more to harm the US and help Islamic countries than any president in history also said that California Representative maxine waters was quote vicious race baiting racist. And he said that Don Lemon was working on CNN's quote liberal plantation. He's also a deep state theorist complicated as to how let me just relate you. CNN's headline and data push conspiracy theories that former CIA director tried to overthrow trump and even have him assassinated. TATUM branded himself as a trump style populist through Fox appearances, which amplified his forays into ugliness and insensitivity all over social media. Now, I say and you heard me say that he embarrassed himself. But those words, those phrases that acting out. Those were the exact words and sentiments that endeared him to the president, and therefore it was decided Tevita was such a vital commentator which trump gleaned as a Fox spectator that no one could be greater than this. Right. Wing is nobody instigator just one problem with the nomination of data getting him pass the Democratic legislator and not just Democrats. James inhofe of Oklahoma accounts the most conservative member of the Senate. delayed `tatoes hearing a half hour before it began additionally several generals who endorsed tater withdrew their endorsements when his comments came to light and all the Democrats on the military committee were outraged by Tate's nomination writing quote no one with a record of repeated repugnance statements like yours should be nominated to serve in a senior position of public trust at the Pentagon your views are wholly incompatible with the US military's values. So the trump administration sensing some headwinds withdrew tater as the Under Secretary of defense for policy he instead will be named. The official, performing the duties of the Deputy Undersecretary of defense for policy sounds like quite a similar position. Does it not still defense still undersecretary still policies in both cases, those jobs will be filled by tatum. He's the common denominator. This is a trump tactic. The way such as it is the president has said he loves temporary appointments because they don't require Senate confirmation this new made up job guy doing the job that required confirmation does not need confirmation guess what all these positions also don't require scrutiny accountability or maybe qualifications. We increasingly have an administration staffed by a cadre of cast-offs and replacement players year and a half ago when this phenomenon was already in full flower or peak pewtrusts, trump was asked about making some of his temporary appointees permanent and he remarked I'm in no hurry quote I have acting and my acting cz are doing really great. He specifically praised acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney saying quote I sort of like acting it gives me. More flexibility do you understand that I like acting? Yeah. Mulvaney is now out and I guess data is in and trump is delighted that the system allows him to tap in Anthony Tater another instigator and for is president to bypass the checks and balance systems of the constitution. The fate of data will be decided later, his temporary GIG will end two days before the election, the results of which trump could accept or trying to become a dictator. And that's for today's show the justice produced by data. Hey. Daniel freighter. S- also produced by Margaret Kelly making her nursery a collaborate the acting temporary under secretary of executive producer of sleep. PODCAST WE'RE Montgomery. The just with. It's helpful to anyone trying to spot an evil genius, crack a joke, and if they laugh more. You. got. Prudential. And thanks for listening. Talk. Fast. Today. Did An I.
Tuesday 16 June
"You're listening to the briefing. I broadcast on the sixteenth of June, two thousand and twenty on monocle twenty four. The briefing is brought to you in association with Lance. As part of the programs partnership with audience, we bring you stories that demonstrate his commitment to securing people's lives. After all for one hundred and thirty years all around the globe, Alleanza has been working hard to do just that to give courage to its customers for what's ahead. Because, `alliance knows how important it is to have a fair partner, your side who provides solid and sustainable solutions. Leon strives to do it right we've. Passion every day. Stay tuned to the briefing. Dear, exactly how allience does it? An alien for life. Hello and welcome to the briefing. Coming to you live from studio one here Midori, House in London I'm Andrew Coming Up North Korea not content with suspending communications with south. Korea blows up the building in which they were supposed to take place. We'll have the latest also ahead. We do not want to impose our vision. Our approach others at the same time Lee would not like when we are imposed corologis. Corologis they're our society. Nation does not suppose we'll hear from Poland's under secretary of state as the president. His party supports ramps up his anti lgbt rhetoric. We'll hear from Al Bureau. Chief as the city decides whether to keep its governor and hello. I'm fitna was device share. Kanobi here, telling you why? The Oscars had to change the date, and if that's going to influence other award shows like the granny's. All that coming up right here on the briefing on monocle twenty four. And Welcome to today's edition of the briefing with me. Andrew Miller last week North Korea through one of its periodic tantrums in the direction of south. Korea announcing that it would disconnect various avenues of cross-border communication today North Korea has underscored whatever its point is rather more dramatically blowing up the building. Nikei Song, which contains or perhaps more accurately contained the cross border liaison office. There has been a concurrent. Concurrent uptick in bellicose language from Pyongyang as well, the morning edition of road on Sinmun, faithfully reports that our army is fully ready to go into action as well as harvest in full swing and John, Yang Vegetable, greenhouse, joining me now to discuss the former Rav of the latter is gone Everard UK Ambassador to North Korea John First of all. What was the Crossbow Liaison Office in case on? Eight was. The September twenty. Four south agreements to facilitate better contrast between North and south There was supposed to be all kinds of corporation projects. New Relevant reports on the new roads to I'm so that there's a small bureaucracy was set up to to miserable. This I'm that was to be based in case on so the big full story building to take officers and a fifteen story building next to it to provide comfortable fats for the South Korean officials who positive process. I. I commend listeners to lost tweaks foreign desk, explaining which outlined the origins of the current row, which is over activists, using balloons to float anti-regime messages from South Korea into North Korea. How did we get from that to this? I. I think you'd take it one step back right at the beginning of run at the end of May. It became clear that north. Korea, after a long period had actually works out its new foreign policy at any given up on South Korea. It hoped that under these ten twenty eighteen agreements putting simply lots of money would be coming its way, but the South Koreans could the projects because of the United Nations sanctions to which schools that balance like everybody else. The North Koreans got more and more more and more angry and I think a big launch of balloons carrying not just. What the North Koreans, called propaganda while the loan. Just call information about North Korea and. baas chocolate. I'm thinking bills into the northwest. That was probably just a law. Stroll a the North Koreans will be getting more angry the for a long time and the clan a week ago that they regard the south now as an enemy. That's to say that the sometime period is to the. So where is North Korea going with this now? Because the the balloons for example seems to have been down, or at least South Korea has wearily promised that they will take steps to stop the balloons. Obviously a significant escalation blowing up liaison office possibly more well as symbols go, it's. It's kind of tough to beat A. Where does North Korea want to go with this? What are they hoping to accomplish? Firstly. They do want the blue largest to stop and I think if there. Is We can expect to see further resolute action is north like to quit against South Korea. The problem. This is how we balloon launches. Although. Peasant Mundi signed up. in the Pyongyang Declaration to stopping them. In fact, he cont feed them. Expression is enshrined in the South Korean Constitution and several attempts to make it illegal to look the north of founded. The people wouldn't get passed by Congress so it's a tight and the organizers of these launches have already said that Bam `fiddlesticks, they all the blues they like. What's this space, so we know how to do with the. Building that the north I think is just trying to wind the south up it hoping that it can break the the South Korean government. I'm force it finally to break United Nations sanctions, and to give the north all the money it was promised in the Pyongyang Declaration the noises coming down to South Korea fought in response to blowing. The there's this suggests that the north may have miscalculated. It is of course very far from the first time. That North Korea has thrown a fit of this magnitude in the direction of South Korea, so it may be tempting to think that we have seen in heard all this before, but there is a distinguishing feature I think of this particular one, which is the increasing prominence of Kim. Jong Eun Sister Kim Yo Jong. What are we to make of that? Do you think? Basically the questions. No, Iraqi House theanswer. Chairman Kim Commute trouble on. The public. Asians like politburo meetings for months and months now lots of speculation. He's sick recovering operational, whatever it might be used to go around on the spot guidance diversity. He's doing that and instead his sister keeps issuing these statements, so she has grown immensely empower whether she is becoming a rival to Kim's on whether they've worked out as a brother, Sister Double Act or whether she is essentially an insurance policy, just in case for some reason Kim's on departure scene. We simply don't know but. The statements putting out do suggest that she's in any way a soft touch, but just as a final thought they as you correctly pointed out South Korea's options in terms of. Stopping. The balloon launches may be limited, but assuming they are interested in trying to persuade north. Korea to walk back up from where North Korea has got to what diplomatic options does. South Korea have right now? Not a whole lot. The one thing that would probably caused the north to back would be to get moving on one or more of the projects promised in the Pyongyang Declaration give the North helped to revive is decrepit railways roads. They're supposed to be building ships in the North Korean port of Nampo together. Any one of those projects I it came to life would probably save the north-south relationship, but they would of course reach United Nations sanctions the southwest corporate in Iraq and a hot place John ever thanks as always joining us. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. You're listening to the briefing with me. Andrew Miller. One of the many events postponed by the COVID, nineteen pandemic walls, Poland's presidential election, originally scheduled for May tenth, and now occurring on June, twenty eighth the campaign, the incumbent Andre Duda has done little to reassure observers already concerned by the illiberal nationalistic turn Poland has taken on his Walsh, and that of the ruling law and Justice Party depressingly unsurprisingly. President Duda has decided that it is politically profitable to take a hard line. Line against lgbt rights, which he has compared to quote a foreign ideology, unquote, not usually rhetoric, which goes anywhere good. Well earlier I spoke to village Blonde Ski Under Secretary of State at Poland's Ministry of Foreign, affairs began by asking about Poland's response to covid nineteen especially in the wake of a statement by the European Center for Disease Prevention and control to the effect that Poland and Sweden of the only two EU countries who have not yet passed the covid nineteen peak. I don't think desertion is quite correct. While trend, itself might not be declining as fast as we would like it to see. It's worth considering the number US and the numbers intolerant or the low, if you compare it to most of the out big European countries. Still Below fifteen hundred of active cases and we'd never therapy. TOUSANDS thousand skate cases overall so now it's less than half of its of the active cases which we manage to do from the very beginning is to introduce the restrictions which were very strict at first days, so that we do not have a spike in new infections, and that was a that that approach was quite successful. Of course, it takes longer than we would like it to, but it's still the daily numbers that the record number was a thing on the six hundred and we are are quite stable in. In regards so in general the way we approach, it is considered a quite positive. Well. One of the consequences of Poland's lockdown was of course at the presidential election was postponed. It is back on June. Twenty Eighth D. think polls reassured that be safe, not just a vote, but to attend any pre-election events is. Is it something you're going to be able to do? Without risking another spike would definitely will be advising to take all the precautions necessary to wear face masks to keep distance in public to use senator gloves or infections on the spot and police stations and in general. We have been lifting these restrictions older public lasers like in shops, churches faces where people gather, and it seems that is relatively under control, so whether on concerns Kohl's and that's why we introduced on the much larger scale than before vote by mail mechanism, and if anyone is concerned, they are able to exercise the rights through post office, so we think it should go more or less plan and the basic. Basic Rights of of the people to exercise their right to votes would be observed as an under secretary of state at the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. Do you ever find yourself getting help to put a nervous about? The image of Poland gets projected abroad during Polish elections in particular when I think it's fair to say some of the Lauren Justice parties. Less tolerant attitudes tend to get spoken out loud. I mean not that concerned about this. Because I know that many of the reports are accurate, all Cimpian true, so I'm not Sur really that much bothered by. It's of course I would like it very much to look different, but at the same time I understand that when our government is a conservative government and most of the governments in Europe and also the. The media that torture the the politics are liberal. There will always be some form of criticism. So this is politics, and we have to live with that. The Media Vo Accurately reporting. ARE THEY NOT President? Andre dudas remarks about Polish schools teaching LGBT issues. He talked about gay marriage, being part of what he called a foreign ideology. What does he mean by that? I didn't really hear remarks about foreign ideology, but I definitely show you that in the Polish constitution it's expressed their heads and we have. Established, a marriage as a union between men and women, and this is all the efforts to protect the constitution perfectly in line with this basic regulation. So when we speak about any attendance ads trying to circumvent, it's this would smeets and from from our. Perspective this will not be approved. Does it not concern you though that? Poland does end up getting perceived as somewhat illiberal and unreconstructed, especially in the context of Europe, where even countries which had a similar conservative Catholic heritage to Poland say Spain Portugal Ireland have got past this. Must what exactly this is this past? This strange hang about which people can get married in which people can not. I think this is quite clear. From from our perspective, free believes that the values on upon which our Constitution is based should be protected that we should not be changing this and. Most of our society supports it so I. Do not foresee any change disregard. We understand that there are different approaches are across various countries, but we do not want to impose our vision. Our approach others at the same time. We would not like when we are in I. That our society nation does not support again. Returning to how Poland is represented overseas as a consequence of the way that your party has governed. Do you get worried for example by Poland? Slumping in measures like the World Press Freedom Index. It was eighteenth in the world in two thousand fifteen. It is now fifty nine, and that is a collapse which coincides precisely with your party's time in office. It is true and again. This is unfortunately very biased very inaccurate, and this was a debate about this about this chart about the striking. Prompted a couple of weeks ago, which is funny, because when in twenty, fourteen on twenty thirteen? Exactly A- which that happens, we actually had very serious problem sweb freedom of speech. We have media officers raided by police or why prosecutions office when certain newspapers publishing reports critical of them of done ruling party of than governments, and despite the outrageous events, Poland still was. Tire was still we're still I. think maids. It's one point tire in the in this chance. Currently we have not suspicious. Our government is criticized on daily basis we have. A to ninety percents of the media against US everybody's allowed sex assigned the right to freedom of speech. New Media critical of government creates database. Nobody is having any problem with that of course I would like. It's very much to be different. I would like the media landscape not to be biased as it is, but that's the facts, and then we are being criticized as a country in which the free speech is somehow endanger. This is completely not true just as a final thought I want to look. Look at how you see Poland evolving over the next few years, and how you see the law and Justice Party evolving D think it's fair to characterize Lauren justice yet as an out and out eurosceptic party you will, of course be aware that the relationship is not good. The European Parliament's repertoire on Poland Sophie has said Poland has become a travesty of democracy I is this a an argument that you are going to keep having or do you think Lauren Justice and the EU can be reconciled? I don't think there is a need to reconcile between law injustice, or between Poland and the year I. Think we speaking about euro-scepticism. We might be a little Brussel skeptic at times. Especially, we can be skeptic about approach that certain institutions of you are exercising the competences, but in general it's difficult to find more tro European society done that Poland's and this has been a constant for last decade in half and I. Don't see any changes in dot coming anytime soon. In fact, any government that would be a unser European that promotes dissolution of European neon are leaving year in Poland. This government would be ousted in the week. This this would never get any sports of course in politics. You never. You're never able to agree on all issues, so we have. With with Brussels Alderman, other member, having a having them their issues as well on monetary issues on the economy, another another things, but this is just how how this works and I think this is good for Europe in this dialogue in this constructive conflict signs, but this is still something which which which brings us forward and I think at some points. Everybody will get used to that. This is politics. You need to fight for your rights. The Paul Blonde Ski Under Secretary of State Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Earlier. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. As part of the programs partnership with Liens, we have bringing you stories that demonstrate alliances commitment to securing people's lives. Often. POLLYANNAS has been working hard to do just that. To give courage to its customers for what's ahead. Because allience knows how important it is to have a fair Paul at your side. Stay tuned to the briefing to hear exactly how. Does it. An alliens for life. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four in a parallel universe. Tokyo Governor Eureka. K. would be look looking forward to welcoming the world for the Olympic Games next month. She may still get the chance on July fifth. Tokyo's voters will decide whether to extend the tenure of the city's first female governor on joined with more on the campaign from Tokyo by Monaco's Asia editor and Tokyo Bureau Chief Fiona Wilson. Festival Fiona two, the governor's current record before the pandemic struck. How will she thought be doing? Well. She's A. She's a French character very strong personality she's. She won by a landslide in two thousand sixteen, so she did win the popular vote and she's often seen as quite popular structured. I mean so very interesting career a politician for a long time in the same parties Shinzo up, as she resigned to stand as governor, and the party did not endorse Oh. There's always been this tension ever since between her and Shinzo Bay and the LT P, the party they shared, but looking further back in her career, she started out as a journalist. Arabic speaking journalists. She interviewed all sorts of interesting people, so she's had a very very long career, but she's also very good communicator. which is where she She usually wins out I, think! In the pandemic, obviously a huge challenge for government at all tees in all kinds of places, but in a city like Tokyo as vast and as densely packed as it is a particularly stiff one. How has she responded to it? Well I think the general feeling is. He's done very well, and certainly she seems to have done better in the public's eye. Then Shinzo. Abe She was very decisive early on. She was calling to the citywide lockdown Shinzo up. On bit uncertain I think he was a bit hesitant about shutting down the economy, whereas K. was just absolutely no qualms. We need to shut the place down and as you've seen the the the result seemed to be pretty good Tokyo's really go with very very low numbers. Of Infections and continue to emerge now slowly, and it's a situation. She's also controlling and she's trying to keep a sort of iron grip on it, and she's also saying that will be off if she's elect reelected, that would be part of her program to to prepare Tokyo for another wave. On that subject of the relationship between her and Shinzo by you're quite right that there has been a degree of tension. Does that still exist because? The noticeably not fielding Challenger. Absolutely does exist, and that does no point in them fielding a challenger. She's you know she's. She's a conservative. She's not coming from us. Sort of left wing radical point of view. She's definitely she shares a lot of the same views as Shinto. Are you know? Fairly nationalist on certain positions, so she's not that different in a way and I think the feeling is. They don't want to be trounced by her again. She one very very decisively over the LT PS candidate in two thousand sixteen, against should very well in the two thousand seventeen assembly elections I think the LDP thinks that the moment they've got to be seen to be focusing on handling the pandemic situation and getting involved a spot with the governor of Tokyo would be would be pretty unseemly, but sadly I wouldn't say that they've made up those two. Definitely, the tension is is crackling and you know I. She spoken about in the past. She said I feel like a middle manager. Sometimes, in in fact, she's running this enormous city and she doesn't want to be patronized by. Shinzo obey so. She's talked about the the iron plate of Japan rather than the glass ceiling. We'll just as a final four. Don't if she's not going to be running against the EPA. Who is her most plausible challenger? Well. It has to be said she's very far ahead. I think she probably will win. But those Kenji to nominee. It's an Amir. WHO's a lawyer He's being supported by opposition parties. You've got the former vice governor of Komotini Prefecture in the south, pretty effective, interesting wildcard emerge jus-. Just this week is Taro Yamamoto. Who is an actor who's become a politician? He's a real firebrand ferry radical anti-establishment. He said the first thing he would do if he's elected is canceled. The Twenty Twenty Games so that that was his position, so he's setting himself against Koi K. right from the GEICO I mean he would win, but it's interesting I think there is a bit of a mood. People are fed up with the establishment and he's the anti-establishment candidate. Fiona. For Joining Walls Monocle Asia editor and Tokyo Bureau. Chief Fiona Wilson. You're listening to the briefing on twenty four Time now to get the latest business news on joined once more by Bloomberg's and pulse you and the global stocks roller coaster continues today. It's going upwards, I think. Yes is last week we saw a bit of a pause in the rally era listeners. You haven't been paying attention. We've seen a tremendous rally in stocks since that massive sell off at the beginning of the pandemic, the off bottom now to the end of March, roughly coinciding with the UK went into lockdown, but April may source stocks, so we had a better pause today stocks up heavily and the start for roughly the same reason they've been up most the time which has to do with stimulus. Bloomberg's being reporting. The trump administration is preparing a trillion dollars in infrastructure spending the idea being that you can boost America's infrastructure crumbling in many places and also. The economy, which has taken a massive knock from the corona virus. Now we, the the Department of Transportation would reserve most of the money for traditional infrastructure like roads and bridges, but also setting aside funds for five G., wireless infrastructure and for rural broadband, the president trump understandably keen to rev up the American economy the strength of the economy. The great jobs market was a key plank of his reelection campaign in November. Not As gone rather badly. Recently, the polls nearly all the national polls the moment showing Democrat Joe Biden, the presumptive nominee ahead of president trump including in a number of those key states, the president trump unstoppably CAIN to get the economy going again. One of course key problem is how to how to pay for this There's been talk in the past of an increase in the federal gas tax, but that's very controversial. Americans logic there because and not used to pay very much tax on their petroleum. So. Congress so far. not showing too much concern about the trillions of dollars of extra boring, but we'll have to see how this is painful, but stocks rallying today, but there's some less welcome news here in the UK. Yes some pretty grim economic data out of the UK today, jobless claims in the United Kingdom more than doubled to almost three million joined the virus lockdown. Some one half million people claiming jobless benefits during just April and May almost all of those people choosing to become inactive, choosing becoming inactive rather than unemployed the lockdown, actually surprisingly leaving the unemployment rate the headline on Paul. Unemployment rates unchanged. We had GDP data recently, showing the UK economy declined by twenty percent. In April in what could be the deepest slump for three hundred years here from the Bank of England later on this week they're expected to announce a further expansion in their assets purchase program, but some pretty shocking labor also separates numbers today on the number of people being furloughed nine million jobs in the UK currently furloughed. That's around forty percent of all private sector employees, currently having the wages paid by the government and another two and a half million self employed people also receiving support that's a total of eleven and a half a million people and the cost of that so far. Has Come to twenty eight billion pounds so some pretty stock numbers on the UK economy today you in parts. Thank you as always. That was Bloomberg's you and listening to the briefing. This is the briefing with me Andrew Muller now. The two thousand and Nineteen two, thousand and twenty. In fact, that's what year it is is relation of the Academy Awards was one of those marquee events, which by dint of happening in February just made it under the descending covid. Nineteen Portcullis much like Indiana Jones escaping the booby-trapped Peruvian temple, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has nevertheless chosen not to push. It's luck further, and has preemptively decided to pump next to us. Distribution of Oscars to April the eligibility period will also be shifted well, joining me with more on. This is Monaco's awards desk chief Fernando. Augusta Pacheco Fernando. What changes are the Oscars making? Well entered. The main change of course is the eligibility of film so for example for you to be well for him to be nominated. Next year we're has to be released from the first of January this year to the twenty eighth of February next year, and a reminder that original date for the Oscars next year was the twenty eight February, and of course this happened because so many films. have been delayed so they. Kademi decided to open an exception. Even though that's not the first time they had to delay, but I mean for completely different reasons one year nineteen, thirty eight. They had flooding in La. A think. The Oscars, this was supposed to happen on the day of the assassination of Dr Martin Luther King and the final one was when there was an attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan so they kind of know the deal, but it's the first time that this is happening because of a pandemic and also Andrew the academy wants to be more diverse so there including a few changes so for example for best film now there will be ten nominees for best film every single year before the number. Number varied between six and ten, but you know every year was was different, but this year decided you know what let said the number ten, and hopefully the nomination would be more diverse as there are other changes to come, but for next year those are the main changes. Do you anticipate a more widespread Risha drooling of award season? Because they do tend to all happen more or less the same time, everybody else will be thinking about this. Will others go where the Oscars have led? I was thinking about this thing. The film awards certain in the Golden Globes. I mean. I, don't think they said anything officially at but the grammys in the Amazon things a different story, first of all the Amazon supposed to happen in September, and it's still going ahead I'm sure there'll be. You'll be a different show than usual and the grammies. Usually happened earlier in the year as well, but but I think the world of music was not as impacted as being quite a few albums being released of course, it changed live performances, but not the way artists release their music so I. Think we're going to see a big impact on the film awards. You. What do you think is the right way forward here? Would you have kept the original date? Well, I understand why they changed the date. I think it's commercially would be better for Dan, but to be honest. I was kind of excited if the Oscars kept the date, because y because I think they would be almost forest to be a little bit more experimental because there's been some good films being released this year, we have films like buck without invisible man, the five bloods assistant. Many orders, but they are quite a lot of. They're smaller films. So perhaps the Oscars were thinking more. You know the commercial sense of things to be honest. Andrew I think. I would have kept the original data again. Nothing against the new, but you would be an interesting year if they haven't changed Fernando Augusta Pacheco Out, words desk, thank you for joining US studies all for this edition of the briefing. It was produced by Reese James and yelling go found the research was Charlie film mcchord and managed today. We'll SAM, impey the briefing tons tomorrow at the same time midday London I'm Andrew. Thanks for listening. MM-HMM!