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Coronavirus: dispatches from Italy and China

The Art Newspaper Weekly

44:54 min | 6 months ago

Coronavirus: dispatches from Italy and China

"The newspaper put coasties brought to you in association with bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out. More VISIT BOTTOMS DOT com. Hello and welcome to the newspaper podcast. I'm Ben Luke. Thanks for listening like many of you. The newspaper team is now working from home for the foreseeable future due to the corona virus crisis. But we'll continue to produce this weekly podcast and this week. The theme is the Kobe. Nineteen outbreak and specifically its effect on our journalists took two members of the art newspaper family in the two epicenters of the virus thus far Lisa movies in China an Annus Cox in Italy will also begin a new series looking in depth at works of art currently in museums and galleries. That have been forced to close this week with the historian and broadcaster Bender grosvenor before we begin just a reminder that you can sign up for a free daily newsletter formulated stories. Go to the out. Newspaper Dot Com. And you'll find the link at the top right of the page now. The founder of the newspaper. Anna summa's cokes. Is currently under lockdown in to win Italy on the ninth of March? The Italian Prime Minister Sepe Kante imposed a national corentin requiring citizens to go out only when strictly necessary that is for work health related reasons or grocery shopping as I recall it. This new three thousand people have died in Italy from Kobe. Nineteen Africa rapidly approaching the number of deaths in China on Wednesday the eighteenth of March. It was announced that four hundred seventy five people who died in a single day. Anna joins me from on the line. Now and are just like to begin by asking you how you are extremely well and so's everybody. I know except for my step grandson who probably has corona virus. Which I'm happy to be able to tell you in. His case is a cough and a bit of a temperature. And he's just riding it out at home and his doctor says not worry but it is a case. Bring your body's in Lombardy which is a neighboring region and the the the the the death toll is now very high it some over two thousand and for the habitually but particularly nobody and people can't even say goodbye to their family when family members when they die so what the house is do is to do away slow drive past of the relations window so they can stand on the balcony and as it were wave goodbye. And that's that's it. It's very strange times. Because it's sort of like an enforced holiday and unexpected holiday combined with a horror movie and it's sort of lurking in the background. Can you explain to listeners? Why you're into in because they may not know you connection there all right well. Many years ago I started the art newspaper for Attorneys Publisher quarterback Talamante whom I subsequently and I I decided to stay in Japan and keep him company During this rather dramatic time and then got stuck by the total lockdown. You can't get in Wyatt. Can you guess? And can you give more details about the look down and how quickly was enforced to that sort of things already in? Somebody was called Red Zone a week before it started here by the Knights of March being imposed and I it was just you know stay inside. But and then and then they then they shut down everything so so offices and factories are still working on the whole people encouraged to work remotely. Obviously the factory workers have to go into the factories. You can't drive more than two in a car The person has a second. Now sit in the back of the car. They caught out. We have to keep them meeting between ourselves so the floor in the supermarket has duct tape stock meter intervals so we signed away from each other. The new shops open a food shops tobacconists newsagents and chemists and the police control. And Jud any time to make sure that you're not just out sort of about to go into a party or anything like that and actually titans are being very law abiding particularly in the North. Where a lot of people have been ill or are still and where in the south having a bit more of a problem because you know they they haven't come across it in the same way right can. Can you give us a bit more? Flavor of what? It's like to be on the streets to in an deserted to in. Well you know what to Carrico Cityscapes like that's what it looks like. I mean to carry was painting terrain when he did those those you know. Those extended captures with the arcade arcadia buildings. That's exactly what looks like it. Shadows It's It feels like a sphere clock in the afternoon in August when everybody's asleep And then you get the same feeling of not do that but I wanted I wanted to the only. The only buildings are open public buildings that were opened our other churches. Although they're not there no liturgies being celebrated which must be the first time there have been marcy celebrated in the Italian peninsula since you know Christian days we're not allowed to congregate but I went into our neighboring churches morning. It was absolutely beautiful. There wasn't one single sewed in there just perfect. And so you'll you'll taking solace where you can in the fact that you can. You can at least experienced culture. In in terms of the architecture of the city Ad Nauseam the churches. Yes yes but but you're not allowed just wonder about the secret. I have to carry this little document saying I've gone out for my health in case a policeman says why you about perjury. Of course but but but here's a slight deterrent from from from from being frivolous and just going to have a drink with somebody which people ready are trying not do those very strong sense that any one of us could communicate a deadly disease to somebody else or somebody who communicated dwells. Now tell me about the paper in Italy journalist Latin Which of course was the very first of these kind of newspapers. And can you say about their operations now and they still active in reporting as we are yeah there. There's a skeleton staff in the office with people sitting on way from each other and everybody washes their hands the whole time. Nobody touches each other in any way We always talk about how long the virus survives on tabletops that sort of thing but can drive you crazy. Everybody was working from home just as the art newspaper is doing seems to work pretty well in fact we. I rather suspect there might be a clam of wait for more of it later on because it's quite dog away in front. If you can get your act together it can you say about this sort of response of the world in Italy Obviously in various spices especially in the UK and in the US now there are lots of museums very actively talking to their audiences in terms of on social media et CETERA. Is it the same initially? Honestly it's so backward digital speaking you know the sudden we are now open to the public. Well you know I went to the custody Rivoli site and I couldn't actually get the youtube things to open You basically they've just got an old marine patio nice website Outstandingly good is the was eight would chills one. Who's rather a handsome director? Christiaan Greco immediately put a little video or nine of him. I stayed home. That's great refrain. Stay at home your restore. But he's he's talking about strange of letters between two ancient Egyptians of father and some the father has complained Ressam that he hasn't written a long time and the extraordinarily also suvival. And it's something I have written to dad but the seven hasn't put the letters in the post. Does it work full marks for kind of embassy relevance and all which that's very good The fundacion proud has quite good collaboration with Google The Uffizi has an excellent website. I looked at an exhibition. They had on on Africans in that paintings of Africans in their collection Rafael Exhibition. That's a huge tragedy. I mean this together. Those Great Raphael's it's the beginning the big event of Raphael. Yeah this is five hundred five hundred years. The Death Raphael there at all is in Rome opened on the fifth of March by the by the presently shot on the eighth of March and the shots on the second of June. By which time we may or may not catch a few weeks of it and that's got nothing online at all right. I mean as you say. That is most notable tragedy of I mean. Of course it's a tragedy the all these museums everywhere reclosing but that that event a real one of one of those Bam rare events that actually genuinely is a once in a lifetime experience. Is there any sense in which you get the it may be extended or it may be given another chance to exist in the form that it that it that it did just before we closed? I honestly don't know I would have thought it quickly difficult to do. Because there's some vevey valuable lanes for more Rhonda the world. I mean. It's a hard thing as coordinate. Something staffers. Come from major museums. Well you know there. Rafael is one of their star operates. The exhibition the collection of early seeks Chinese art at the custody. We also shot in fact. He didn't even open. But that's easier to extend because he's one man's collection I if he's feeling benevolent he can let it stay longer. Though it's going to be a great loss around the people who are the real real losers are togue guys are twenty thousand official tour guides insult who have nobody to Guide around and they're all self employed so they are literally without an income and our government to help out and Tourism tourism represents thirteen percent of GDP and these are not peak toys months. Obviously but you know the photographs of Venice was absolutely nobody in them. In our deeply moving I will but they also reveal how few inhabitants are administering But But the the economy is a is is cruel particularly to the to the you know the occasional labor union. The Bosnian they under cafes are all shot so the people were taken on to to wait at table just usually paid in. What's called black money? You know unofficially legislation it. Suddenly without work. There are lots of people who are really hurting at the moment. Andy and actually that is something that I think the art newspaper it throughout its history has done very well his point to the kind of ecosystems that underlying the art world that keep world going. And I think that's one of the things that am yes we're terribly sad about museums closing the livelihoods of so many people across the art world's a under threat right now. Well yes I mean the art world. I suppose they're artists. Who'S EXHIBITIONS AREN'T HAPPENING? And small small galleries that will will go under. There's going to be a massive Financial Crash I think What's a very rich? Old Man? Once explained to me who had lived through a big crash of the late twenty S. he said unity. It's not that the rich people become poor in a huge financial crash. It's a they wait for the market to bottom out which means that they didn't spend any money so dries up if people aren't buying and selling and now a sort of side Aspect civil with you've talked about the deserted streets of of to win but one of the things which is delighted little on on social media over the last couple of days. It's been images of Venice. You'll the former chair of the Venison Peril Fund and therefore you have a very close relationship to that city. Have you been monitoring all of this and seeing these apparent declare canals? And what do you make of it and do you? Do you know any of the science underlying what I do. Because We collaborated with Cambridge University and institutions in Venice at the time and I know you know what people are working on so I rang up somebody S and I said well. He's he's actually true that it's doomed to the corona virus shopped on. And they said well would really. I mean it's more that The two hundred and fifty water taxis who normally Roar up and down the canals in Venison. Not doing that much to take them. That cost eighty years to go from eighty. You know just around the block as it were and that means that the silt isn't being being being Turned up So that that you could say. His dude indirectly corona virus. The main reason why why why the water is clear. Is that these. The light is already very bright but it's still winter and so the tiny algae which the warmer weather calls to develop and suspended in the water haven't yet developed And that does is. It gives the water in Venice. It's kind of wonderful green. Opaque Green Surgeon. Green Look Just how that's completely seasonals. Got Nothing to do with Corona Virus It's not corona. The water is polluted. It's not not particularly polluted action so to return to the to the horrific an issue itself and at the moment in the UK. A there are lots of discussions about waves of the virus. You in Italy right in the heart of what appears to be the absolute worst of a wave. It is a you in Italy. They saying that it might come back again or is it yours everything to do with firefighting and dealing with the horror of the current moment. I honestly don't understand. What is it all because it seems to me that if we get to the third of April could be people. Were still about to get it. We all got on the side of April and start hugging each other again drinking in bars. And then the people who get it and they in fact they will start again. I I think I think you'd better better not paying attention. What I'm saying because I really don't know what I'm talking about but I get the feeling that most people don't really quite understand. Except possibly some vase facilitated virologists and they don't seem to agree among themselves now one of the things that's delighted people and amazed people given what's going on is is been seeing these spontaneous cultural events happening between the two in the flats. Have you experienced any of that Anna? Oh God I from one of my semi illicit walks and I came around corner and in the Squire on one side. There was a saxophonist and on the other. There's trumpeter and they were in dialogue with each other playing Billie holiday song it was absolutely it was it. It may cry but the same time we want to shout with George because They hit APPs to determine that they will get into to communicate and in a physical way not just online and people have been doing it all over the country it was originally a range as a kind of flash mall but they keep doing it. People go when they start singing and they they they put a loudspeaker often play. The Italian astronauts very loudly and on Sunday the Archbishop About Your said all the churches which ring their bells very loudly for accord for an hour just to break the silence and make us feel joined up as a community. So they're all a you know despite everything. There are hints that people are finding the connection to community that they perhaps haven't had for some time though that's what people are saying. There's a nice it will drake going around of You know a mom saying while the penalty well. I'm spending enough time with my family. You know that quite nice people. We're discovering each other. New Ways will be stay. Well thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you Ben. Bit later. We'll be hearing from Lisa movies in Shanghai but I hear a few of the top stories on our website the krona virus inevitably continues to dominate the newspapers. Reporting this week. It was out of the freeze. New York art fair has been canceled. Meanwhile museums and galleries across the UK slowly announce their closures the last of the national museums in London to shut its doors. Was the National Gallery whose long-planned Artemisia Genta Leschi exhibition due to open in April was also postponed indefinitely? National says it will go ahead at some point in the future. Meanwhile the art Basel Hong Kong Fair opened at least online and you can read a moment by moment account of the VIP viewing rooms experienced by art market editor. Anna Brady of your newspaper Dot Com beyond the corona virus crisis. Three paintings including a major work by Anthony Van dyck stolen from University of Oxford Gallery last weekend. Works by Salvator. Rosa Anabolic Recchi was stolen alongside van. Dyck's soldier on Horseback from Christ Church Picture Gallery on the fourteenth of March. You read only stores and find a wealth recommendations Virgil eltek submissions. Other focus and much more at the art newspaper. Dot Com or not at for Bio S. We can get from the APP store. We'll be back with bender grosvenor after this. The bright young things the phrase conscious a world of freedom and that glorious feeling of having the world at your feet and nothing defines Bristol fleeting enchantment better than the work of sle beaten one of the twenty century most of Mark Photographers and very much. A bright young thing himself beaten captured the sense of youthful abandon and conscious self fashioning that erupted in the aftermath of the first World War. His images of the young intelligent and beautiful society darlings can be called friends not just limited to photographs now. A selection twenty two illustrations by beacon for his first book. The book of beauty will be offered bombs modern British and Irish art sale this month in London bottom specialist in modern British and Irish Janet. Hardy commented having spent his youth idolizing women. He saw in popular magazines. The book of Bt was beacons realization of his boyhood scrapbooks containing photographs drawings witty descriptions for some of the most beautiful women of the era of big MoD as much for that talent beauty for more on the story visit bonhams Dot Com. Welcome back now. One of the consequences of the covert nineteen pandemic is that works normally seen and enjoyed by millions of visitors in museums across the world. Suddenly hanging unseen in empty calories. We felt that this is a good moment to place. The spotlight on these now lonely works and return them to the public's gays and every week until the museums reopen we'll be joined by leading artists curators and storylines who choose a favorite artwork and share their passion and insight with us for the first in this new series we asked the historian broadcaster and or Grosvenor to choose his lonely work. And he's chosen. Antony van dyck's masterpiece Martin Rick from about sixteen thirty one which hangs in the product museum in Madrid which closed indefinitely last week. Bender joins me on the line to discuss this great work. Now bendel the inspiration for the series actually came from me thinking about less my Nina's in the product and thinking of those figures looking after empty galleries. You've actually chosen another work in the pro. What did you choose this work It's for longtime being my favorite painting and I remember standing in front of it for the first time and I mean as an art historian. I suppose you're often knocked out by pictures but you can often also a little bit picture blind because you see so many beautiful objects but this one I was like a sucker punch and it stuck with me for many years since you remember when I saw it. I think it was probably about ten years ago on a trip to the product. I think I must have been doing some filming for the BBC. And of course you know everyone wants to go in congregate around less minhas and that sort of thing. This was hanging in You know not a deserted but it's one of the smaller rooms and one of the most extraordinary things about the painting his his painted in oil on panel and as a result none the pigments Have faded with with the tendencies that they often do on canvas and its luminosity is really quite intense and then you combine all that and advantages in good condition. Combine that with subject matter and it's It's a real knockout. So tell me about the subject matter. Then he's marching mccart. Modern recall was an artist and Van. Dyke seems to be very keen on depicting his fellow. Artists a great number of citizen his iconography series of engravings fellow painters. And it's almost like event I was trying to be a shop steward to sort of elevate the status and fame of his fellow artists and of course his Martin Rick Art painted rather subtle small scale by that point in the early sixteen sixteen thirties slightly old fashioned little pictures of Arcadian scenes and People going about their daily lives somewhat in the manner of of the Braga lls But he was known for being the hottest with one arm. And that's how he's formally recorded in fact in Antwerp in the in the Gilson Luke Shield in an airman. And it's very touching how van Dyke's depicted him here because he sat staring in front of you. It's a full frontal image and it's very opposite he's only got one arm in the live and I it doesn't focus on the missing arm. You can tell you only got one on. And that's what gives this picture part of. Its its power. I think you spoke about. Its luminosity in that. The colors in this work are just spellbinding. On the yeah. He's he's wearing. What's thought to be sort of Eastern European Court dress? He's he got a bright red. A Cuny calm and over that is beautiful for. Cape with his dock blue collar and he's also got a looks a bit like a Santa Hat but in blue on the red and the light falling on his face against the dark background. It just makes him stand out so So much more than your average portray from that period where people are often interested in presenting themselves in a in a flamboyant and expensive Sh- blinky background. But here everything is that. It's all about the light falling on recounts face and his one. Good hand Now and the red the red cloak helps you helps you go into that aspect of the and what's Fascinating. Van Dyke Use of light here. I'm this caravan. Essentially is that the light falls on the one hand and Van. Dyke was really really good at painting hands. In fact He gives rise to one of the very few genuine honest oracle jokes He was once asked why he spent so much time depicting his sitters hands so beautifully and he said. Oh well the hands pay the bill so that that was very important to but in this picture. Records hand is staggeringly whoa painted but it gripping the end of the CIA. It's it's not relaxed hand and I think this is much personality in the hand. The hand that he painted with as there is in the face is released ordinary. But what about what about that face because it's to me one of the great things about this? This picture is seems to to convey the emotional life of the sitter so powerfully. Those those is so There's there's a system wisdom in them but there's also certain certain melancholy in USA. I think you're absolutely right is melancholic. And I think that's one of the reasons I love it. I mean I'm one of those people who who loves sand music It sort of cheers me up away and I think when you look at this picture of of Martin Rick. First of all his is is the the the basic structure is is sort of rather sad in themselves. Looks a little bit like a Labrador puppy. He's just being scolded. Both and you can see this on the prompter website when you zoom into the eyes and this only works because the painting is condition you can see the moisture in them and you can see actually that he is willing up and when you combine that with the overall sadness in his face in his mouth the one Gripping the chair the very sparse lighting and the fact that you know this man was We know he was ill at the time was painted and he died at the end of sixteen. Seventy one and we think the painting was painted about sixteen. Seventy one the painting just it's almost overwhelming and one of the reasons. I had one of the reasons. I think it's appropriate for all this potentially overwhelming moment in our and our lawn is is it. It is actually a picture about triumph over adversity. Who would have thought that? In Flanders in the early seventeenth century a man with such a disability could become a talented and well known autism. And I think that is what Van. Dyke is celebrating. Its position the product seems to me especially significant because it evokes another great portraitist Titian and it seems to me that Van Dyck's work in the company of Titian seems utterly appropriate. Yes a van. Dyke was fantas obsessed with Titian and obviously the the balloonists and the readiness of this portrait is very esque. But also sometimes if you look at Van Dyke portray particularly from his late Italian periods in early or because second Antonio period which is when this painting of Martin Recall was done They often indistinguishable from from a Titian. If you see for example Titian the Frick collection which looks Falwell sometimes like Van Dyke and vice versa so we know from Van Dyke civilian sketchbooks that he went round coping every Titian he could get his hand is is on. And that's certainly right has echoes in this portrait. Bendel thanks for sharing. You'll love this painting with us and people go in their droves now to the product website and twelve website to look at this amazing picture. Thank you so much. The Corona virus began in China. Of course in the first journalist to feel the effects of the restrictions prompted by the pandemic was Lisa. Movies are China correspondent who's based in Shanghai Amethi offered developments in the rest of the world. Some positive news has begun to emerge from China and on Thursday nineteenth of March China reported no new local infections for the first time since the corona virus crises began three months ago. Lisa movies joins me on the line now to discuss her experience so at least the first question has to be how all you I am doing. Perfectly fine shy has been very quiet and there haven't been that many cases especially given the huge population the city there have been a little over three hundred and fifty Total cases in Shanghai and this is a city with twenty four million people so it's been pretty spread out and not particularly intense however it has been under what we call lockdown for all seven weeks so things have been very quiet. A little bit boring but not exactly life-threatening. So can you tell me a bit about what what that means? Look down to you know. To what extent are you prohibited from leaving your home all that kind of thing? So a lockdown is from a quarantine. Corentin means everything is completely closed. People very much restricted in being able to interact at all people are not allowed to come and go from there cities or their compounds or even from their houses And that's kind of what happened in San and a few other provinces or cities that were very very hard hit in Shanghai and most of China. We had a lockdown which is similar to what they're doing now in the US so a lockdown just means that most things are closed except for essential services like groceries and food delivery and hospitals and so on and people are highly highly encouraged to not go out unless absolutely necessary however that means that the streets are very empty. So if you WANNA go out for a walk ron or a bike ride or to go have a beer in the park. It's pretty pretty safe. Because no one's around. How did that manifest itself in terms of the art community so first off did museums shut immediately with a total shot? How how did your life change as a result of your working? Life changes the results of the verse. We'll for the museums. The shot almost immediately as things started to become a parent of how bad the situation was in Wuhan and increasingly and other parts of the country so in China we have the Lunar New Year which this year fell on the twenty fourth and twenty fifth of January and that was the same time as things were becoming evident of how bad it was so a lot of institutions were closing anyways and so they just were told to extend their holiday hours for another week and then for another week and then for another week so by and large and museums also usually close associate galleries also usually close over Chinese New Year so everyone was already in vacation mode and it just the extended those closures for a few more weeks. I mean one thing that I'm sure. Many of our listeners won't know is to what extent is there a sort of joined up series of communities in China to what extent they very independent. How much communication is there among the different communities in in in China I would say the communities in city to city in China especially in mainland China's very tight net. There's maybe one of the leading museum twenty or thirty museums and maybe forty to fifty galleries. Things grown slowly enough people still mostly know each other are in touch and are on a number of you know we chat group chats and other social media so I feel like the conversation about what's going on and what people are doing has been pretty much nonstop even if we couldn't actually meet in person and have you got any sense of artists themselves on how artists have responded to this issue. Are People doing creative things? Whilst on lockdown or worst whilst the restrictions are in place well in theory lockdown. Spend all this time in your home or in your studio can be very productive but in reality because everything becomes so unstructured Our sense of time becomes what could be best described as whimsical. It's not necessarily easy to focus when there's so much uncertainty and fear going on and you don't actually have any pressing engagements to have to plan around. I think what has happened with artists that I've talked to as well as the rest of us is that it's become a very Breath left at time hanging out with your family or with your pets or with your friends and thinking a lot. What you're doing and where you're going so I think that will maybe get reflected into a more thoughtful art out of Asia or all of the world. At the rate things are going in the future but probably also going to see a lot of bad paintings of mass to can you tell us something about in the UK and the US already. There's been a lot of activity among the museums which have just recently closed clearly wanting to communicate with their audiences wanting to do lots of stuff online. Has that been the case in China? Yes everyone immediately started thinking about what you can do online whether they're gallery or a museum or even artists and curators have been dabbling with online spaces. But I would say a lot of what has happened has been reinventing the web. The don't necessarily know how to expand with technology because it's not something that has been very pressing previously so we've seen here in the mainland China I. Today is the last day of this collect plus art week which is actually two weeks since early since March fifth run by this online platforms. Zay TO PUT UP PROFILES DIFFERENT GALLERY. Directors and then certain works of art for sale and In the hopes of that been drawing you collectors and you eyeballs and actually make some sales What I'm hearing from the galleries is that the sales were not terribly strong from that But it still is better than nothing as a way to get people to interact Just this week in Hong Kong. Some a couple of different Galleries and auction houses and PR. Companies are launching Art Power Platform. Which is hoping to do online exhibitions and promotions of different projects and talks and so on. I know a couple of galleries that are doing like virtual studio tours or do trying to do their own podcasts or doing just interviews with artists so all these kinds of things but and even even artists some galleries have tried to Set up like games and interactive projects and platforms for their projects But it is a little bit of a hodgepodge and I can't say there's anything that's been terribly new. I think what's been shown from. The past two months is that we really need to knock our heads together and start thinking of new models for what to do and we can't actually meet face to face. Can you tell something something about about the presentation of the virus in the media because as you becomes? The epicenter of the virus is very clear that there is a. There is very widespread reporting in very rich detail and a lot of conflicting. There are lots of different opinions about the right ways to go at. Cetera has been a similar debate in the Chinese media. To what extent do you feel like this? Been a kind of a real intention to inform the Chinese public when it comes to the mainstream Chinese media. Debate is not something that's hugely encouraged. The the information is presented and everyone pretty much toes literal party line and of course. Initially it was that everything was fine that everything wasn't fine that everything was really really really not finally stay home now But within the parameters of what you can report on what you can say there has been a lot of information out there and people have been very proactively using social media and using their VPN's to find and spread information. Of course that means there's a lot of misinformation and conspiracy theories and But China has no monopoly on that either one thing that did happen in the early weeks especially when people were very critical of what was happening and Han for good reason and for the early cover up of the virus. Was that a lot of people in the art world. Have their we chat account suspended So quite a lot of people were just kicked off the platform entirely and had to free. You'll get new phone numbers and reapply. So this was a there is a real real. Crackdown on what could be set over. Social Media Midway through the lockdown right now over the last week or so China has been the Su Su Su more positive news amongst the Delis. Very bad knees here in the West. I was wondering if you might tell us what the status is now. So for instance you both your personal status and the status in the art world art museums open can you can you see Well as of today we are not officially required to wear masks outside anymore. Though we're still supposed to wear them with when we're in public places indoors so that's a nice change museums. Shanghai as of last week started reopening but just the state museums because of course state museums can follow stricter rules on how to go in and how to register and keeping the numbers down compared to private museums Only a few galleries have reopened but some of the Galleries in fifty. Which is the MO Gunshot Lou Gallery Cluster have actually been open quietly for almost a month now Everyone else is still waiting for their marching orders on how they can apply. It really varies based on who their landlord is or who their compound is whether they're allowed to have people in Roy but you've been to an event today right you've been actually to a museum today. Today was not an event per se. Is that the power station of art. Which is Shanghai's state-owned Contemporary Art Museum has now opened public since March thirteenth and so I- registered today. Vance with giving my passport number and personal information and upon showing up I had to show that registration I had to show my health. Qr Code most most updated as of today and had to have my temperature taken. And then I had to wear mask inside. So can you tell me about that experience of actually going there then because it must have been after after longtime of not doing this sort of thing was it was it was Eerie. Was strange was comforting. Well the power station of art and Shanghai is a huge place anyways so you always get overwhelmed by the size and the emptiness even when it's packed with people when there's maybe two or three other people in an exhibition if that many it is you know it's kind of like the VIP tour you get to really enjoy things and see things close up and spend as much time as you want to without getting jostled so it's actually quite nice time and this is a good time to go to museums or galleries here and Shanghai. Now on a sort of less positive from overnight. Today we're talking on Wednesday. We found out that The New York Times The Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal have been banned event effectively from China. What's your view on this house? This being reported there for instance. Well I haven't read the Chinese media but I have seen Chinese friends reactions to it Taken from international media and everyone's quite upset about obviously. This is a big blow against a puff. Freedom of speech and responsible journalism in China to clarify. The publications are not banned all of these publications. You can't access them in China in the first place without vpn. But they've had operations here The details of what's happening with reporters is still not clear. But the initial reports say that all of their American citizen journalists are going to be kicked out. I don't know what's going to mean for their correspondence of other nationalities for example The Washington Post Bureau. Chief is I think I do Zealander I don't know if they're going to be able to stay. Or what exactly how? Exactly this is going to play out. But it is the the largest mass expulsion of journalists. That separate happened in modern Chinese history. So you say it's the largest since nineteen forty nine but has there been a recent history of similar or anything anything that resembles this so last month. I think it was three. Correspondents From The Wall Street Journal were removed because of a editorial that the publication ran that had nothing to do with any of those correspondents that it was a very unfortunate title that it called China. The sick man of Asia or the sick man of the world and that references a very unfortunate history when that was a more of a racist slur against China so understandably. The government was angry. Everyone was angry with the Wall Street Journal over that editorial however punishing three reporters over something that had nothing to do with them was not a very appropriate reaction. And this time the expulsions are because I'm not sure exactly when But America recently American government recently limited the number of reporters from several Chinese state media that could operate in China and labeled them as agents of the state. So probably insinuating that the are actually spies rather than really journalists. What's missing in This response is that the Chinese journalists in the US are of course working for state papers whereas all of the papers affected in China are private papers so it is quite an imbalanced response definitely Los Christian in in the UK media. There's been a lot of talk about different waves of the virus and that even if it's beaten in the short term it may return later and impacts even more devastatingly. Has there been anything like that. In the Chinese media research any preparation for what might be another way of the verse given that it seems at the moment to be contained. I think the sentiment that there's going to be at least another. If not more waves of the virus hitting all of us is a universal sentiment worldwide. Here though the focus is more on containing imported cases so right now there's a lot of people including a lot of people in the art world both Chinese nationals and foreigners who were based in China. Who were abroad for Chinese New Year and the just stayed abroad so people are coming back in droves like all of the existing flights are just packed with people now So each city has different rules in terms of quarantine China has banned anyone despite some reports. Everyone is allowed to come back but they will be forced to quarantine either at home or in a facility or in a hotel depending on their exposure and which country come to so in Shanghai there is sixteen countries currently that are considered hot spots including the US and anyone coming from there has to be subject to an extra strict quarantine. A friend of mine who works at a museum is in the line for that right now waiting to get tested and she keeps joking about how the all the Shanghainese are complaining that the foreigners are getting the exact same treatment as the local Shanghainese because everyone is being subject to the same rules since of course the virus doesn't care where you come from indeed. It doesn't am Lisa. Thank you so much for joining us and stay. Well yes thank you you too. And that's it for this week you can subscribe to the newspaper at the newspaper. Dot Com. Click on the subscribing at the top left of the homepage. And if you haven't already subscribe to this podcast please do so. And His rating or review. If you've enjoyed it the art newspaper podcast is produced by Judy housekeeper. Amy We do awesome and David. Clack and David is also the editor. Thanks to Anna Bendel Anti Lisa and thank you for listening Busey next week. Newspaper put dissociation with Bonhams near since seventeen. Ninety three to find out more visit booms.

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2020: art market issues and big shows

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:04:11 hr | 8 months ago

2020: art market issues and big shows

"Hello and welcome to the art newspaper curse. I'm Ben Luke. Thanks for listening in this first episode of Twenty Twenty. We're going to look at the year ahead I in the market and then in exhibitions Sion's before we begin. Just a reminder that you can sign up for a free monthly newsletter art market. I go to the art newspaper. Dot Com and click on the link at the top right of the page next newsletter will drop into your inbox on the thirtieth of January. Now delighted that the people behind that newsletter a here to talk about the year ahead in the art market. We the Anna Brady. Who's our art market editor? Hello Anna hallet them. And I'll deputy art market editor Margaret Carrigan. WHO's normally based in New York? But his here in London high. So let's let's begin. It is much easier to review the year in market as you did. Anna lost podcast Then to predict what's going to happen in the market but there are some clear themes that we can identify for. Let's talk about this ongoing and increasingly prominent issue which is how the art market responding to green shoes and to its massive carbon footprint. Do you WanNa give that yeah. I think it's really interesting because it's something we weren't even really talking about. I would say and say two thousand seventeen and the kind of mainstream in coverage of the art market and ready the large commercial galleries. I think ray just lost year. They actually started having to respond to these questions quite seriously and having to really think what. They're doing to try and redress balanced. Because as we all know flying to God knows how many Faz all over the world and taking a lot of wax them creates a huge carbon footprint as it would with any large event So I think a lot of them. It's starting to think about what they can do to scale back on that but for me it still feels like that still paying lip service to as and they're having to shave that they're thinking about is but you know mark glimpse of Pay Scotteri. He told us that whilst thinking about it he's base. He stopped flying. They won't stop going to these fares because they still the need to be there in person in his opinion. So I kinda wonder whether we're GONNA start seeing more of this sort of carbon offsetting so these galleries can afford T- T.. May well to stop throwing money at the problem. And paying sort of maybe making a thing of of paying large sums and two gay towards a Offsetting some of that launch cost rather than really changing much. In the way they did a slide from at an easing pay a copson nor easing much plastic. Nick Yeah I agree I think we you know a couple years ago. We started seeing a lot of artists making work responding to the climate crisis. And now I feel it can be really cynical. All their whole lot of people in the art trade that realizing that they want to represent these artists and keep their artists. Happy are like Oh yes. We're very concerned about this as well. But like like Anna said it is to a certain extent Just how the art market is bill. I honestly just play devil's advocate. The Art World in the art trade specifically are very small in in in the broader scheme of things and I think what what we are need to be talking about more is the industries st that kind of fuel the art trade which are the major money making industries that have the big carbon footprints. So I think what's going to be difficult for the art trade to overcome if they they really do want to take you know. Climate issues seriously. Is that their client base. Are The people buying the yachts taking the private jets. All these things like you can't change your clients necessarily Sahadi respond to that in real time and meet them where they are in different ways. This is Rudy fessing to what extent can can gallery Dictate terms to its client base. I mean are there any previous instances where you're conscious that Galleries would take. They can ethical lead in certain issues. I think thinking Conradi I think is kind of. I think it's quite interesting with the world because it's it's really it's it's quite left leaning. We like to think of left-leaning and a lot of these galleries trying to appeal the huge amount of talk about how to appeal to millennials because surveys began this huge wealth transfer So they need to be appealing. So worthy millennials. Well like Maggie and I really with a lot more cats and they need to be appealing to us in terms of what they're what the outwardly say but they might be left leaning ideologically but they're really quite rightly capital. Capitalism dependent hadn't as well so I don't think they can dictate terms or ethical values to their top end clubs. I I agree agree with that but then I also just want to offer an anecdote too. I think you were with me when we were in art. Basel last year We were at this party. A Golden Party and his artists told me that he had walked to Basel from somewhere in Austria because he was trying to reduce his carbon footprint. I I am so embarrassed to say that I laughed at him because I thought he was joking. And then he's like no no no no really I I did and I was like Oh crap we need to take like this. This is really going to change. Like he's doing got there as I'm part of the worst part of it because I was laughing I mean surely the the key factor in this is if we are to imagine a future world in which there are fewer flights being taken and fewer works being shipped the online provision needs to become more prominent right and is there any sense in which galleries are doing more online to as a kind of means of becoming more ecologically minded. Yeah I mean this this. This rise of the kind of online virtual viewing room that some of the galleries like Google and Houser houser wild. I think there hasn't been yeah severe doing these virtual being rooms online during fairs. I didn't know that that has anything to do with cutting back on a carbon footprint. I think it's just another south platform. So let's talk about a major fair. That's coming up on the rails which is freeze Los Angeles where where do we see freeze fitting into the ecosystem of the fares. Maggie and what is it doing in order A to propel itself up onto that higher echelon of I think freeze is a really interesting case. Study Right now because obviously there over the past several years. There's there's been a lot of resistance to the traditional fair model a lot of galleries saying that. It's it's not sustainable financially and wanting to find alternatives to that I don't know that freeze has drastically moved the needle on that In fact is open. You know freeze. La last year as second edition What we're seeing this year here though is They are trying to think build it into more of a entertainment slash media slash event Platform form a lot of that has to do with you. Know their new ownership stake which is endeavor based in L. A.. And working in meat across media things like that so that seems a logical move for them as they move forward but then with that comes new new kind of terms and It's a different playing field in LA. And I think we're seeing that mirrored especially this year with their crackdown on exhibitors exhibiting across fares. Generally there's been this kind of turn in a blind eye thing to galleries that want to participate in more than one fair. You see this at freeze London UC mini galleries participating in different fares across the city. Because there's so many going on you saw especially in New York last year where I think about ten percent of all freeze exhibitors were also exhibiting at tough off New York And then all of a sudden there is zero overlap in between Felix the other upstart fair in La and A lot of that has to do with freeze kind of saying look we WANNA take over this market. We've got a plan to do it. Here's how we got to do it. You gotta be you gotTa be on side with us to that end. Ah there are a lot of larger art. Basel is one of them. That does kind of keep a watch on and does ask galleries to refrain from participating in other fares but there are a lot of fairs that still do not ask that or if galleries do they just kind of like let it lie or maybe have like a backseat conversation. Later on me like you know if you can again again So I think it's really interesting the IT. It's so kind of clearly marked this time around what that means for freeze going forward is I think they're going to try. And you really take a a stronger. Lead within L. A. and further is that market professionalize is because it is still is a small kind of community artists and and dealer is Globally speaking but it has a lot of ways an interest behind it that I think that It's a smart move for freeze but it could. It actually proved difficult for exhibitors especially local ones. When I mean the question that comes to my mind is isn't freeze assuming that that it has a a sort of well of trust from its dealers in order to be able to begin enforcing this interesting in terms of the power balance? I think I think there's always a sort of slightly strain sort of power dynamic between fair organiser and exhibitor particularly when these galleries a really powerful that really debate as well. And there's a bit of a tussle. I was sent between them. So four fair to be outwardly telling mix it's exhibitors what to do is interesting and also I'll say what was the question about whether he was declined for not fair as well you know. Are they all the galleries their clients or visitors that clients and in this case of the galleries client. You'll sort of telling your client what they can't really do but it's interesting you do i. Do you want with results as well. Whether you from assistant sort of perspective you see the hand of Endeavour much more clearly when it comes to freeze the need in New York. London like I feel like that's endeavors fair. So it's their local market right saying the the game this sort of pulling rank a bit more in La. Absolutely okay. And I think it actually for me. I think it is really interesting to watch because I as I said more galleries fight against the traditional fair model if they they are able to leverage this into a more multi disciplinary platform especially as there's been a lot of attention also paid to Oh experiential artworks and performance and they're blending that with film. They haven't new filmmaker award this year as well for freeze. La I think we're seeing this diversification in what it means to the present art to a large audience through what their business plan and I. I'm kind of curious to see what happens. I'm intrigued by that. Because these he's automatically forums for selling out it's a trade fair. So what does that experience you more experience you. Experience that diversification of media actually do do for the galleries for the clans is more about showing off what they do then than selling these days is that is that is that the argument that fares shifting. What they're actually full? Let's tough question I would say. I think that we're trying to figure out what exactly it's doing That's the real time question mm-hmm overall I am. This is purely my opinion but I think it's just kind of mirroring other major retail detail kind of Branding strategies especially these here in fashion and whatnot like just doing the big pop up event that draws people that gets people involved solved then you can kind of sell a bunch off the back end of that as far as I say it's like the flip side to the online the growth of online as well. You have to provide something thing to make it worthwhile to take your flights to go and see these fast as well and yes they are trade fairs but they never liked to admit that eight fast but these are trade fairs in central purposes still to sell off because they caused a hell of a lot of money to do as well so people need to sell things but for for the past decade eight also because such competition machine these fares and also because of people like us because of journalists. You need some kind of angle on them. Dave had to be sort of Adding bits on around is whether that's a talks program or the special sections which address different often sort of different current affairs or will provide some sort of experiential experience like experience for the visitor. Then that's sort of all has to come together now people just people people wait. Just go to a to a fair. Just as trade fair justify our because the businesses all about the experience in about being seen to be there as well. And ooh the added extras right. Let's talk about another affair. That's coming up the roses coming up in March you saw Basel in Hong Kong and I have to say that when this is discussed in the press. There's a sort of it feels like there's a shameless ignorance of these massive human rights issue being played out on the streets of Hong Kong. And All we're hearing about all we worried about the clients we worried about the. Are we worried about the security and it seems you know is in a way it really puts into sharp relief. The extent to which the art market can at times feel very very divorced from the real world. And what's going on with the art Basel Hong Kong I. It's a good question. I don't know that not many people really know I mean it is going ahead at the moment. What we know now is is that I think the F. T. reported the three galleries? You have actually dropped out. What puzzle have said is that they will reduce the withdrawal fee? T seventy five percent of the cost Rodman one hundred drip sent. I mean that's still quite a lot of money can give a bit of an indication of how much money you're talking sort of from about forty thousand dollars and upwards. I mean it's different for some of the special she'll sections but that would be a cheap be. I would say but it could. Well be up two hundred thousand dollars. It's a lot of money Say Three three galleries have pulled out And there's also. We did an article in the January issue. About how insurance for taking the outlet there has will say piked. It's obviously because the insurance market react so it's around about twenty times. The normal rate say say it's nominee north point one percent of the cost of an artwork to ensure it to go to an art fair. And so now it's two point one which is quite a quite a hitchhike considering how many outlets outlets he might be taking to a fair so yeah it's kind of an and questions are coming up now as to whether you're seeking the terrorism market or sort of whether this is just civil unrest so there's a lot of questions going on around that am I think I think a Lotta batteries are still quite confused as to what they should be doing that logistical nightmare for them. Although I completely agree with you in that we're talking about insurance and fees costs and logistics when it's a huge human rights issue as well going on on the street so it does. It does feel slightly wrong to be talking about that but practically it's a big problem. Interestingly interestingly I think in that same. FT article that you mentioned in a it also noted that the galleries at still want to participate in our planning on participating They are going to take a slightly different strategy in their event. Planning you know just having US talked about all the event driven marketing Around something like freeze. La There are few galleries at our question. You know saying like well. It's a little bit tone deaf to just a hosted major major party amidst all of these riots where people are putting their lives on the line every day so I think I think to a certain extent that acknowledges the rarefied space that the art world does exist in because all things considered it it. You know the fair probably will not be that heavily impacted as things stand now by these riots by these protests in as much as we just have to be mindful of that space that we occupy as this kind of very top tier Rich while the industry he has a very good point about the being tone deaf I mean the market can be quite sometimes. That's really really good that some galleries are at least one. There was one gallery we we know considering whether or not they were and what. We're talking about galleries already. This year there was a big announcement from house them worth about the fact. They're going to represent George condo internationally. They raise increasing competition for the major. Altis what is the big market artist. Isn't there seems to be sort of growing increasingly prominent yet been major major theme this sort of over the top artists assists. I mean Joe's Condo. Yes but also t moore was hasn't been hits three say fall in not even at the end of January yet so if they carry around that rate. That'll be like what thirty six by the end of this year. So it's it's a very competitive world out there. We will be publishing in the February issue and lawyers at. She written a piece for us about three different. Recent case studies negotiating splits between artists and galleries in some cases where the autism some cases for the galleries but the lawyer rate. This has said that that's really increasing area of the market for them. They're increasingly getting artists as well often batteries coming to them saying look I need to leave gallery or I want to make sure that I can be represented by more than one category which is another rising trend. T. So again Dan. We were talking about power balances early between fair and exhibitor. There's another area of of sort of this tussle so power between artists and gallery too I think that's something that's going to become even more of a theme this year really as the stakes continue to rise for through hot artists and estates. Yeah I think. The The uptick in joint representation. That we've seen just in the last year alone is pretty crazy. And I think we're just going to see more of that and also in our failures issue we talked to an La dealer who has never enforced exclusive contracts. And she's just like why yeah. Why would you do that because the like artists need you know gallery? Specialize is in different markets and can get artistry need so I think that also points to the art world mirroring more entertainment industry kind of Benchmarks and looking for that kind of Flexibility of having agents rather than galleries in some ways so just explain about joint representation representation a little bit more because of the artist of long headed London representation and your representation. Are you saying. The artists are increasingly represented by I two galleries in the same city now. I think that's still slightly rare although it does happen from time to time it's mostly different cities or for you know different elements of their work in some cases or you know the kind of This dealer Susanville matter in La She It kind of talked about how artists need different things at different times and negotiate different contracts based on. What does some? She's like sometimes they want to make a major installation so so you negotiate based on what funding. Sometimes they just had a baby and need to take some time off but still need me making money. So what does that kind of sales contract look like. And that it also to bring it full circle brings brings it back to like the Professionalization of the art market like. We're seeing so much more. Attention paid to contracts rather than just good faith agreements. Yeah that's true. Actually that's something that Ov- is obviously lawyers love contract that they were pointing out that the contracts are are really key which obviously go against a lot of the the the sort of art wealth. I dare of relationship is sort of emotional friendly relationship between artists and gotta risk but really they they need to have it down written down and in black and white what their arrangement is is interesting. This because I'm sure lots of our listeners would be quote astonished to know. Oh how much of these massive money relationships have been based on something like a gentle person's agreement at Gentlemen's agreement with between between autism dealer. You know there has been a well you get fifty percent and get fifty percent nothing written down and Anaconda kind of an emotional connection wherein artists will stay with the dealer for for for a long time and that arrangement seems to work but but it seems from what you're saying that there is an increased professionalization of that relationship. Yeah just really shows when it starts when that relationship Saleh's Ah if if it's hours then it's show how at the very beginning. None of these things were set out So then it can get ready quite bitter but I think in terms of the multiple representation. Just pretend to that quickly is also You might get five different galleries working with an artist. He has ready Sosa. Risen up through the ranks and I think this is very positive but that their initial galleries the smaller galleries that I work with are still representing them as well and and I think there's a bit of a trend to to to be very calm civic minded by some of the big galleries he might have taken. Who later taking them on that? They are still working with the first galleries. And hopefully that's something that the our system cells of insisted upon as well and they want to keep that loyalty to the smaller gallery that I gave them their first show something that both of you have noticed. Is that there is a lot of attention. Being given to young figurative artist many of them women on the market at the moment and tell us about. Ah What are the implications over. Well I think is really good thing. I think a lot of these women are doing really good work and thinking of people like shovel self. Td Eighty Curtis as well And Enter Decker Crosby to and they're doing a lot of them are doing which obviously very much fakest on the body and sort sort of our idea of identity as well and how we sort of present ourselves which obviously big themes generally in society and. That's part of the reason that they're quite popular. I I think it's quite interesting to look at these D- think that they will continue to be web web quad Lord of the heat in the market so that name. The day sells homes and some of the evening sows will be throughout this year is quite interesting to sort of go back almost ten years and think about Zombie formalists and how they were. Nitty you white men ready and a not a huge fan of their work. I need but certain. Just how they were sort of picked up by the market and oversee went mad Anderson's it's been rather unceremoniously dropped. I hope and I think that won't be the case with a lot of these female figurative artists but ed sort of wonder. I wonder how how long this will be sustained as well. I think it's definitely where the big beaming trend is within Cetinje with the auction markets. At the moment what do you think about that Marquis. I think it's I. I agree with you wholeheartedly but I I also think it's really interesting and I think what we have to be really conscious of when we are talking about you know work by female artists minority artists that is gaining a bigger market. Obviously you want to support that market you want to like white. Men have dominated the art trade aid for centuries and to finally see you know other artists breaking into that is really exciting. And you do want to throw your money at it but you have to be conscious just of who your throw your money too because when the auction houses capitalize on that none of that money makes it back to the artist so I think that's the one thing that you you know I I I disagree with a lot of the Kind of discourse around it that this is entirely exploitative i. I don't think that that's the case. But it can quickly become that and whereas and I think it's very slippery slope for female minority artists that that are having that success because unfortunately they don't have a backlog of history and prices like a lot of white male artists due to support their mark. If it does kind of bottom out all of a sudden it seems to me. That is really really crucial that the galleries themselves behaved very responsibly in Republika after these artists. Because that's one of the things I've noticed. In the past these stratospheric prices that suddenly rifle though as long as they are now known Zombie. formalist it there was a sense in which you know there was like who's who's monitoring this who's actually taking responsibility for looking after he's asked because it it it felt like a bubble the mini. It started a new. It was gonNA birth so I suppose it's something where we need the galleries to really look off their artists at this point and that was also a bubble. It was Radi inflated by flipping that was when we first started Komo flipping. Works to and say flipping is T- by a corny primary markets by it saved them from the artists gallery and then to to Very quickly pushes into auction with the hope of making a fast prophet because really the the problem with buying from a gallery is that You need to get get access to that and the gallery will control. He will be allowed to buy these works because they don't want to be flipped into auctions and then at auction. You haven't go very many works but it's it's an open playing field so you get these much. Pious sums paid for these artists. Just because anybody can access these sweats when there is auction. So yeah I mean it can be a very fast way of making a quick profit on a hot artist right so to conclude swearing and a self see very neatly into our next section. Where we're GONNA be talking about exhibitions of the year and the issue that we're GONNA be talking about lastly in this conversation? Is this idea that we touched johnstone asking the year in review lost ear which is the increasing presence of Commercial Gallery responses in museum shows can. There's a there's a big story by any shore in the February issue. The newspaper coming up. What's what's what's happening is? They're shift so we very much looked at just the UK institutions for this and it's set against context of sort of toxic philanthropy and museums having to be much more careful about TV. Accept money from when it comes to the fossil fuel firms With the recent soccer scandal as well So so that obviously they need money. Funding is being cut. They need money. Spent on these shows and there is a rise in auction houses on the commercial galleries sponsoring thank shows and obviously they're going to sponsor shays which are in the field that the that's in their interests that might be their artists or artists. States that they represent bent So it'll be something that they want to be. They want their brand to be aligned with as well And I dating. There's anything necessarily wrong with with doing that. And it's understandable but then you've also got the fact that it's a major museum schaeffer. An artist will definitely impact upon its price upon the office prices at auction as well. You can quite closely correlate these T- things back so it's slightly questionable when it it comes to that as sort of tally in the ethics of of doing that and whether that should perhaps be something. That's a little a little bit more crazy but I'm not saying that it's totally so you know it's not a wrong thing today. Yeah I think it's just a changing public sentiment toward it And it's it's not necessarily new but it is more visible and I think that the as that conversation grows in the US commercial and corporate sponsorship. And the you know attending tax write offs is commute one Miracle Bilton. So that's not new at all but especially I think after you know. You've seen things at the Whitney all last year. Sure About what kind of board members are doing what they're corporations are doing. We're GONNA see a lot more of these larger commercial art art influences on industries as a whole but then you also see major commercial galleries like pays like Hauser also becoming kind of institutional national himself. So it's it's blurring of boundaries. I don't think you'd know where where the power is actually GONNA end up at some point. The Church and states blurring exactly sure am. I think it's just maybe we should mention. The fact is it might maybe from the outside world the property. Just what's the problem with it There is is this sort of historic thing of commanche the commercial art world and this rarefied Museum well not not mixing t much in the pseudo grubby. Market forces shouldn't be allowed to sort of enter an inference sally land of the Public Institutions And that's something that has been breaking down for a long time and really seems to be a lot now whether you agree with that what you disagree with that. It's a matter of opinion poverty where we've covered a lot of ground in this conversation. Louisa Lisa She's unsure. We'll be returning to over the course of the year but for now and Margaret. Thank you very much. Aw if you want to hear. Art Market insiders predicting for twenty twenty including Lim Sha the Chief Executive and president of pace gallery and Jussi Pylkkanen the global president of Christy's ICAN read their views online at the art newspaper Dot Com now before we move onto museums and exhibitions era. Few of the top stories on the website this week Van Gogh self-portrait dismissed as a fake has now been authenticated after five years of research. Our correspondent Martin. Bailey tells us that the pitcher which belongs to Norway's National Museum was painted in August eighteen thousand nine in the mental asylum near San Remigio problems. According to Louis Van Tilburg senior researcher at the the Vancouver Museum in Amsterdam is the only word. The artist is known to have painted while suffering from psychosis is now on view at the Vanguard Museum where it's unload the restoration of the van. Mike Brothers Ghent. altarpiece has gone viral this week it prompted amusement and some dismay at the humanized face of the lamb of God in the central panel the adoration of the mystic lamb as is on museum editor. Hannam givens extensive report on the restoration tells us the altarpiece painted from the mid forty two thousand fourteen thirty two by Yann Hubert. Van Eyck has been in the process of being restored since it's two thousand twelve by Belgium's Institute for Cultural Heritage. Despite the wealth of Briar Search. It was only in this restoration that scientists might be astonishing discovery. The beneath the lads as of yellowed and cloudy Varnish around seventy percent of the panels was obscured by sixteenth century over painting the five lower interior panels including the adoration. The mystic lamb returned tend to their home in Zimbabwe Cathedral in today after three years of treatment. So you can just restoration for yourself. Finally a public appeal has just been launched by the you case art fund. Save the artisan macadear Johns home and garden in Dungeness on the coast in Kent which has become a shrine pajamas. Many fans the fund says that three point five million million pounds needs to be raised by the thirty first of March to save prospect cottage which is at risk for being so privately having its contents dispersed and its artistic legacy lost archie contributing editor Gareth Harris reports. The money will be used to establish a permanent funded program to conserve and maintain the building content and his garden for the future artists including Michael. Craig Martin Jeremy Dealer and test. The Dean of given limited edition works as reward on the art funds crowdfunding page you can read about all these stories and more at the newspaper Dot Com or an irs. which can get from the APP store? Now what does twenty twenty hold in terms of exhibitions. I'm joined Louisa. Buck are contemporary art correspond. Hello Louisa Hello and Josie Silver. WHO's exhibitions editor? Hello JC hello. Let's begin by talking about being Ali's he's Louisa. You've picked up a couple of e thinker going to be really significant. Biennale as I mean that always a plethora every year now but this year there's not the absolute headline line grabbing bananas and an art events. And there's no Venice Biennale there's no documenta but we do have Helsinki new manual which is which is opening on the the The other wonderful sounding Valla sorry island which opens on the twelfth of June around until the twenty seventh of September the theme is the same see so is environmental again interconnected but also impact on all of us and sensible the ecological crisis. I think is hanging over. All the Biennale is at this point I'm closer to home. Glasgow International Oh has come round to gain and this year. The theme is attention meaning paying attention or also attention. Being distracted by twenty four hour news feeds Internet madness and also artwork that requires close attention. So I think there's GonNa be a very strong political theme again here performance active In the main lane sites in the Museum of Modern Art and the main galleries in Glasgow and sites across the city and then off we go to manifester in Marseille. which is the European Saddiq? Biennial it POPs up in all kinds of unexpected places it started off in Rotterdam last year. It was in Palermo. And this year it is in Marseilles and the the the title of the La is trait. Do Union which apparently means hyphen in French says about joining. But also separating and again the notion mall say as a port as entrepot on the edge of the Mediterranean and there's going to be issues of the notion of kind of connecting and different kinds of movements of masses and a sense of diasporas and sense of fluidity so that's thoughts them and then the Liverpool bi annual on the eleventh of July. which has its notion is wonderful? Title the stomach uh-huh port so a gain a port city. A sense of the mouth is different themes the mouth and the belly about your populations arriving in Liverpool about how they how they distribute themselves out the sights again in the city and the the this has this has a large amount of artists has historical figgers judicial cargo on British Ithaca Hoon but also many many contemporary artists of all generations. That's GonNa be really extremely interesting. And then of course you know. I'm not the real off. But you've also Got Sydney Riga Bucharest Berlin Guangzhou Sao Paolo folks in triennial bangkok-taipei coach Amir's is a plethora those mytalk top tips. At before we get onto the exhibitions as a whole. There is another massive five hundred hundred serie this year and it's Rafael the series Leonardo auto last year of course five hundredth anniversary of death. And what's really interesting about referral is of course if done this cost. Two hundred years ago then Rafael would absolutely absolutely have been on the same sort of level of stratospheric fame as Leonardo or Michelangelo referal seems to have fallen away. We'll well well. Those continued to climb to a certain extent in the public imagination. And I think is interesting that in in civilization can the clock actually says that he's he's the supreme harmonizing organizer and that accounts for him sort of fooling away. There's that he's Artie somehow. Gentle for the for the twentieth century as it was then and now the twenty. First I think we live in such emotionally-charged ocean each charge times and I think you know the rembrandts and the Leonardo's and the Michelangelo you not quite so much but nonetheless it still lots of dynamic density and I think you know when one thinks for classicism fantastic. Compositions are kind of cool. Moore's conceptual approach and don't forget heels died at the age of thirty seven has not that massive sort of arc of decades of career to trace as well but he was incredibly of course versatile the prince the tapestries the drawings the the designs the architecture as well as the great painting. So I think it's going to be fascinating show and do that. So there will be a whole series of relevance and I won't go through the mall now but clearly this sort of Lamma Egmont moment. Is this National Gallery show in October and as he suggests there. Louisa is very much emphasizing Rafael as this multi media figure and intriguingly streaking Lee on the multimedia front and with a silt of sense of Claxton given the disaster that has been there Leonardo experience. They obviously can't feature the stands fans of the great works that are in the Private Library of of Julius the second in in the Vatican but they will be recreating them in in its innovative innovative. Means one who is more successful than Leonardo experience less theatrical. Let's be a bit more old school and just straightforwardly taking you through amazing art. It works and let them talk for themselves rather than bells whistles and light effects on things. Now that's at the end of the year but it is actually an extraordinary year at the National Gallery this year. Let's talk about Oughta media idea to begin with Artemis a Jetski. You know the woman the Seventeenth Century woman artist who took on the old master male history painting figurative painting mythological paintings extolling itching for women to even practice an artist painting any form of your but to be right at the top of the tree like she was with incredible forty what year career which which had a working with heads of state and mean reclaiming these great subjects but from female perspectives. Who are famous aimless? Youth analyses these two versions brought together in the show of Judith. Absolutely giving it a lot of these Young Blood Gore beheading decapitation taking place. Her Great Patra Lucretia all rendered to female is and with no holes barred she was a great storyteller and spent time at the end of the sixteen thirty s in the UK as well working looking the quarter. Charles the first and it's GonNa be a great self portrait from that period as well now have up until recently her career has been she's been sidetracked. I talked in a way. I mean being a woman artist. She was huge in her lifetime. And only rediscovered in the twenty century. Really twenty-first-century coming twenty first century and also of course the terrible story of her early early rape by by a colleague of her artist fathers and the famous trial where she was tortured by thumbscrews. I mean bad enough. Anybody particular an artist but was exonerated. But hopefully this exhibition will show her to be supreme artist fantastic storyteller and this polling episode of the beginning of her life won't be overshadowing every showroom entire exhibition. Now another major show at the national is Titian love desire death. I have to say this is the one. I'm most looking forward to probably more than any other exhibition in in the UK you K.. This year it reunites the six great poesie which are six mythological paintings painted for Philip the second king of Spain and briefly early in this period in the fifteen fifty s kingland because he was married to marry the first and they are these extraordinary mythological paintings tumbling figures rampant sensuous nudity incredibly incredible storytelling and of course extraordinary painting. Th that for me is something I cannot wait to see. I can't wait. It's coming coming soon. Sixteenth March the Fourteenth of June. Got Time to see it. I mean based on his metamorphosis. You've got these incredible stories. Dining out yonder in Callisto Venus donuts you know all united for the first time since they left the quarter. Spain is going to be really quite something now. One of the great centers for Old Masters in London is The Dallas Picture. It you gallery. But they're actually doing a show of British surrealism. Which looks really intriguing? You either absolutely yes. They've actually established quite a reputation for showing twentieth century British art alongside their L. mostly program and indeed contemporary as well and this is the British surrealism Britain. You don't think about surrealist artists Britain the great names among greet Darlie Ernst but. Actually Britain came quite late to the party. There was a great show of surrealism in one thousand thirty six in London where a lot of British surrealists were dragooned in or artists. Who seem quite search wound in Henry Moore Paul Nash in a whole lot of other figures who you know? One doesn't hear about not much these conroy. Maddox Idel Cahoon grace. Health Open Ruby Mednikova copperhead. We're renationalised last year and these artists were extraordinary and they really stop tapped into a kind of indigenous Spirit which is what this show is bringing up. This show says we may be late to the Party in terms of twentieth century surrealism. But actually it's been kind of indigenous surrealist spirit in the in Britain right from the word go protests realize they call them so you know Fuzuli Blake Lewis Carroll and actually show is being organized mathematically. So there's there's a lost war radical politics the uncanny dreams sits it's GonNa thematically shown and we'll we'll bring tonight's really extraordinary British figures as well as figures like like Henry more like Francis Bacon who had surrealist tendencies. I think he's going to be a really interesting. I opener. There's going to be a really intriguing sanding figurative painting show at Chapman. I should say we just had this conversation about the market and about how there is a rise in yeah women artists to a painting the figure in radical new ways on the market. Lots of lots of attention in that sense and in fact the show that seems to be sort of bringing lots of them together these radical figures show as cool at the White Chapel Gallery opening in early February. What's good about it? I think is a ten painters. They're going in depth with a few could could be a whole raft of of of a parade of painters. But it's about facing the new millennium looking looking at looking at the looking at the body in terms of design identity not sexuality and so it's very much about issues within the body. I mean extraordinarily artists. Shell self exploring. Notions of stereotypical identity both in terms of race and in terms of gender. You've got Michael Armitage. The young Kenyan born British based artist who who makes history three paintings and imaginative paintings body reimagined in many many different ways. Tell Him Adani object strange male figures from her native wrong on being being being confirmed in place by her sesame Brown boiling brushstrokes. Coming out almost abstract sense of old masters and misters being being reaping reaping re redefined. So I think it's GonNa be a very dynamic show and showing that you know there is by no means something retrospective about making figurative paintings. It's GonNa be very much about the issues of today just briefly Fli the white chapel will be putting on an archive display which is all about a new spirit in painting. which was the one thousand nine hundred one show at the Royal Academy and of course famously included no women upside it the white chapel show features seven out of the ten women absolutely? Yes and also one of them's actually Brown's also going to be showing in Blenheim as well so she's going to be inserting using her extraordinary works. which which ethically relating to old master paintings but very much female perspective at all some popular culture's well and inserting letting those in the historical paintings of Blenheim which of course is all about you know? War and conquest in power is going to be a very interesting combination and now let's move onto the tate. I mean we could do a whole podcast about the tapes program. They see it is absolutely extraordinary. 'em But we're going to pick out a few shows and flag up. What surround them Louise? Let's start stop by talking about Another figurative painter lean it yet Ombo achie- one of the leading figurative painters. I think leading one of the world's leading painters right now I would say absolutely yes. I mean she's become known for these. Enigmatic paintings of mainly black figures old Mosley kind of poses but painted with very vigorous contemporary temporary brushstrokes. They're very inigo matic. They engage you directly often eyeballing you straight out of the canvas. But actually they're not real people they're fictitious personages that she's dreamt up up from her imagination she writes as well as she paints and Losch Losch colors their stance is very old. Marcy feel but that also extraordinarily contemporary and and she really is a remarkable painter and also made him one hit. She will make these paintings in a single day of course drawing on all her or kind of experience as an artist they've got tremendous energy and I'm really looking forward not seeing a whole show devoted to her career arc it date from two thousand three when she graduated from the Academy schools and now she's internationally established figure but still pushing the envelope. Once he's the pilot shift become more lash on sees different kinds of configurations of figures. And it's going to be a real a really exciting show. I think significantly in terms of that show. There'll be a lot of works on paper as well as the paintings which is different from the Serpentine. Show which actually was not that long ago but she's producing so much excellent work. I think that it justifies having a show so so soon after the last absolutely her prints are extraordinarily and I think she's very prolific too but in a very focused way so I think it will be a distinct development from her serpentine up until show. Yes so we'll be seeing the net from the nineteenth of May thirty first of August I'm working out of that show also traveled to the Guggenheim Bilbao towards the end of the year. In the autumn. Awesome and then to SF Moma in San Francisco next year. So it's quite kind of imports. GonNa be an important color years for him for her. I think she's she's very much an international figure isn't she. She's a leading painter across the world when she showed him Biennale is and and she's had a big show at the new museum in New York a couple of years ago so now she's she's very much part of the international scene also take Britain coming up just before Lin- March is Aubrey Beardsley. And I think this is going to be a really amazing show because because unlike the Vienna which must be probably twenty years ago now It's GONNA focus on the drawings as opposed to the prince and the joins all the the works where you really do see that extraordinary on one hundred incredible beautiful delicate line but also that sort of a real fervent imagination. We've grown. I used boiling imagination. I mean it's six store that he died when he was only twenty five. He died of TB and so yes such short career but he's totally defined the eighteen ninety s totally defined fancy actor who became his period and these highly erotic highly kind of provocative exquisite drawings as you say to see the drawings rather than the prince in such the quantity is going to be a real very exciting and we will know about him but I think to see the full scope of what he actually achieved just by using. The line is going to be really exciting in the summer. At Tate. Modern there's an exhibition of his nearly MMA holy and Zanetti was one of the absolute standout artist. I think in most recent Venice Biennale Louisa absolutely the self-portraits some Yama Netanyahu. I've probably pronounced it completely wrong. Hail the dark liners though these self portraits of the artists blown. Oh not to billboard size. The contrast have been accentuated needs photographic self portraits so. Their skin was seemed very black. The whites the is the teeth. The Holcombe in contrast within within these photographs was really accentuated and they were wearing these extraordinary headdresses and decked and adorned by Banal household stuff of clothes pegs scarring pads of cable so you've got the sense of defying gender defying ethnicity defying domesticity and gazing out in. These extraordinary elaborate headdresses looked like trainable headdresses made of domestic club. And also we're going to be seeing all the other strands of their work because since nineteen ninety S I've been depicting picking the LGBTQ population of South Africa Cape Town Johannesburg and population of individuals who've been heavily heavily discriminated against. Is this series. We'll we'll be. We'll be tracking often the same individual over several years and seeing changes and developments within within this population within the individuals ages. The population They've been making these series since post-apartheid nineteen ninety s and so it's very much about define victimhood defined discrimination nation and actually showing individuals developing through the arc of their life. It's going to be a really extraordinary shaw now very briefly. Let's talk about the three exhibitions of leading men at Asked to take more than this year. Steve McQueen in February St. I'm puzzled by this show. Beat I'm very excited by on the one hand but then I saw the list of works recently and there omitting anything before nineteen ninety nine. So there's no bear. He's really major breakthrough work. There's no drum roll. Aw and other really major video installation work and there's no dead pan. which is the work was famously in China? Prize and Is I think one of the absolute best works. He's ever made so to a certain extent. I'm so excited but frustrated that we're not going to see the whole picture this really extraordinary video particularly because we're thinking of a more and more now as a filmmaker make I mean. Of course there's there's his current project with the school children in the Dean's in tape Britain which which puts him back into the sort of art category but community outreach as well l. but you know Thanksgiving cinematic time so it's nice to see the film that the origins of this work but there still will be many great pieces that to show that he can handle the cinematic medium in a way that is really really astonishing and the The the third wall horrid retrospective of my lifetime in London or certainly the. I've been conscious of is about to happen you too. We don't need to say much about this. Andy Warhol it is a retrospective there are some portray which I think have been very relatively rarely shown of transgender people and I think that is one slightly different Body of work in it. But it's a Warhol rich respected fundamentally yes I mean I kind of feel like do we really need to be seeing more of Andy Warhol at this point. I mean overseas a huge majesty aerial figure. But it's been great shows very recently. So let's hope this ends up some new stones indeed and then lastly there's a big Bruce Bruce Nauman show and I think this is the most exciting show of the autom at tate for me and there's also a big Rodin Sculpture Exhibition Moist. Forget about but there's a but but yes Bruce Nauman Alan arguably the most influential artist of his generation and still exerting influence over young artists today. That's in October attainable. Each phase of his career is often the entire career arc for subsequent artists. And I think we fantastic to see proper meaty retrospective of his work. There's a really unusual photography show. Oh and I think really landmark photography show potentially at the Barbican opening in February which is which is cool masculinity and it's a sprawling show huge. Do Show they do. Do these big shirts very well though. The bottle can masculine his liberation through photography. I mean exploring notions of Maclean's nineteen sixties two now and. I think it's really topical. In Our metoo period where traditional notions of masking masking subject have been sufficiently debated to have a show that deals with queer identity. The Black Body Power Patriarchy the family it ranges from artists from Mapplethorpe is if Julian Sunil Gupta female artists as well depicting rencontre Bistra depicting teenage men Catherine opie working with with notions of masculinity within within different queer populations. I think is going to be a really interesting show. It's not going to be a kind of setting the record straight. It's GONNA be complicating matters even more which is ideal and Joe. There's a there's a preview of this enough appre various a great preview preview in February issue by Tom Seymour. 'em highlights on of the kind of interest. More interesting works in the show which will be some photographs by the Talibans never obvious kind of associated Taliban with a nuance masculinity but the these photographs were discovered in a photo shop in Afghanistan. Dan and explain that the under the Taliban Tofu was banned except the cost for documents passport. Saw Do things like that. And so some of the time Soldiers would kind of exploiting a loophole and I got themselves swearing coal and there is and holding hands and he's very kind of we've maybe save feminine. Photographs were kind of discovered and they'll be on show. There was covered by the president of the Magnum photos. Agency Thomas for Zach and and he'll be exhibiting these kinds of what's Clinton the book called simply Taliban. He's extraordinarily I mean this is. This is the potential for this show to really disrupt Europe things very very different ways at looking. How men are presented in photos? I think that's fascinating to complicate and also just to kind of complete complete the fact that you know nothing is nothing set in stone. Everything's fluid am Jason. Let's move on to Europe as I pointed out earlier in this focused. There's been this tremendous storm about a van Dyke Restoration in which is rather distracted from is a major event and big exhibition. The against apiece on the wind has been undergoing a restoration projects which began in twenty twelve. And it's been live restoration that happening at the Museum of Fine Arts against the restoration coming spy. What will that'd be the largest exhibition of Vinik ever include around half vis twenty twenty two Autograph works among these will be panels from the old happy so the outer panels which will restored in the first phase of the restoration project. And then the other kind of I guess the interesting thing about this show is that the panels will be you displayed. Impairs I level. Where usually they're kind of above either for so get a chance to kind of look really closely alongside this? The exhibition compare Vanak. WHO's kind of the master of northern Renaissance with some of his contemporaries in this league so the Museum of had got some very amazing loans in such as massages aversion child? From the from the Uffizi. Answer Franchetti Saint Francis Receiving stigmata which will be exhibited alongside two versions by Van nyc one coming from Tyrians Galilea suburbs about and the one from the Philadelphia Museum of art. So we had this chance to kind of compare the the greats from the northern renaissance. The grace of the kind of southern Italian renaissance. This is really something we just really don't often get the opportunity. They said getaways museums. Absolutely yes I think. The the one of the reasons is happened is because there are so few venite works in existence is actually difficult put on a very big show of just his works. I'm and also the other problem. Is that many of the museums many of the collections. That have his own his work They've Annika's the kind of key key treasuring collection action. So it's very rare that they'll lend these out so the experts has been built around these panels. Mitch the same Barber Cathedral of saids will never be learned that again so this is really I mean the the term was the lifetime gets bandied around a lot but it's really will be. I wanted to let opportunities what's up close and to see who's probably in my opinion. The greatest things this is ever It'd be awfully close and and and in combinations that you'll never see again from the distant past to the to the very present One of the big shows of the year in Europe is is undoubtedly Cristo at the pump. You do but also. He's doing a massive project. Thus right yes sam. So there'll be a kind of MM An exhibition of his crystalline clouds. Work since Pompidou. But they're kind of more interesting wolf kind of the fun thing. That's happening autumn. I think it was meant to happen. In the spring it's been pushed back to. The autumn is that he'll be wrapping the the triumph in cloth as he's very famous dumb with the Reichstag in Germany for example I'm and this is a project that he and John Claude's came up with that she when they lived in Paris in the fifties early sixties. So is kind of taken as many of his projects taken decades to kind of come bashing. I'm I'm very excited to see that wrapping up this work in the sense of Paris Louisa you interviewed Cristo for the first year is quite difficult process. He's very very Cetinje. CETINJE is in his party as you all credit to him because he pulls off this stuff on his own hisself funds it he set up his own his own foundations these one sources and to pull some wrapping up the auditorium is quite remarkable. Really is is certainly going to be one of the images of the year that we can imagine being reproduced produced wrote across the world. There's a really fascinating looking at the Beyeler Foundation in Basel which is going to a retrospective essentially of Goya in in in Basel. Yes of this show at the At the fondation Baylor which is just outside. Yeah just outside Basel as you say We'll focus a respectable. They'll focus mostly on his mature. Lates slater works. And there'll be around seventy two more than seventy paintings including Lama steeler which is this famous painting in the product which is addressed rests Maha as opposed to the news matter and I think the the VW on the key works in the show. Yeah and then this I mean the important thing with of course he's always to have paintings alongside the works on paper because he no way. Are we in a period where Goya's works on paper. He's the Las Capri choice and the disasters of war in a way become his famous words. I think Goya's Prince have become part of public culture more so than his paintings. Thanks such as the dream of reason produces monsters you can see everywhere. Some prince on t shirts on book covers so I think this will be a real kind of opportunities to kind of go back in his paintings up to his paintings to see them together to because his paintings in the product is the product foundation of the black paintings. The ones that we always associate and so to be able to see the prince's well alongside I think it'd be really exceptional in eight am. Let's move onto the US. Now there's lots of really major shows the first really strikes me as being like a massive show and it's only at Moma is not touring is the Donald Judd retrospective at Moma Josiah. Certain this will be his first major. US expensive in the in the rounds or in more than three decades With around sixty works spanning his whole career date and One of the great things about John Calls in the last decade of his career. One of the things he really did was was pushed. The color of his works into new dimensions. We've got these. These forms. These manufactured manufactured forms which increasingly became his priority and then suddenly in the eighties. There's dispersed of color inside of this steel cubes with these vivid did color inside. It's almost like a very straightforward savile row suit flashing an amazing lining sudden sense the classic and then sort of voluptuous collar. Almost yeah absolutely elite. There's a major show at the Whitney which really intriguing again. That's previewed in the next issue of the art newspaper. Josie yes it's called Villa Americana Mexican mural this remake American art nine hundred twenty five nine hundred forty five rather long title but it covers this kind of key period. Following the Mexican revolution has come two decades where there was a an incredible influence coming from a Mexican mural lists On a young American artists have such as Jackson pollock and Philip. Guston who who wants alongside of what we were taught by these mirrors such as David L. I care does or deeg. Rivera is kind of incredible show to put on at the moment. Especially when these these contentions with the border and of trump wants to build a wall across the border ammos asking to be a massive Chevy around two hundred works folks covering sixty artists I think with the branding detect expressionism as beings quintessentially American art from the nineteen fifties onward through the Cold War to actually actually now put back the really important piece jigsaw puzzle. Actually its roots would Mexican artist. Socialist art is really crucial at this point. Absolutely and that's a nice linked to a I think a show that I'm most looking forward to seeing the begins in America and then tools to various venues and comes to take modernity next year. Which is Philip Guston? Now and I would say push comes to shove. The GUSTON may be the most influential American painter. Today I would say I he. He mentioned in by more artists now than than any other of artists of his generation is very much the latter figurative Guston. Isn't it because Nicholls. Had this whole seachange of being an abstract solitaire into this troubled scary so-called bad painting cartoonish senses of mankind and kind of abject abject the Dow and meltdown vulnerability. That's that's what. The contemporary artists sees onto in days at brilliant quote by him. And I'm paraphrasing here. But it's something like who am I in the studio studio comparing a red to a blue and there's all this chaos going on outside the studio in this political chaos and one of the interesting. Things is reuniting lots of paintings thinks from famous. Nineteen seventy show at Marlborough Fine Art. which was the show where the famous Hilton Kramer Review appeared a Mandarin masquerading as a stumble Obama and is one of the most famous? I sort of absolutely scurrying view Kramer was completely wrong. He got it completely. Lumber bone claim today exactly am another the great painter who has a major show in the states. This year is Gerhard Richter it begins. I think it's the last show at the broiler. And then we'll travel to the Los Angeles County Museum of art later in the year the amazingly the first Richter retrospective for a generation in the states. We've had the panorama show which toward here in in Europe. But I think it's really important because to a certain extent rich debt has become associated with stratospheric prices on the market. And it's important that the audience sees work and its breadth and variety of his work that he made sculpture as well as paintings. You know the fact that his paintings veered so much of photographic to the history of the famous swipe paintings in the sense that it's much more than the market. He's a merger Stereo Fig. I'm astonished at. This is his first major show in America for so along. Yes indeed now. We talked about a lot of male artists in a row there. But there's a big show off duty Chicago coming up as well Jersey. That's right yes the The Young Museum in In San Francisco which on the ninth of May go until six September base the first major space of of such an important artist Malinche. One eight hundred fifty works Unfortunately included dinner party. How much famous work? which is Permanently installed at the Brooklyn Museum. The work will be represented by complete sets of drawings that she made for these plates which depicted famous women from from the past such as Automated and Alaska. We've mentioned already today and Joe Jerry Kief and several other mythical Michael Women So there's these beautiful detail during that she that she may be kind of one of the key Works in the long overdue. Show that forget you. We popping up the Apu bi-annual as well. Yeah I mean I think is a sense of these key. Feminist figures are now actually getting that proper exposure late in the day. But it's it's it's nice that I'm not quite sure what she's doing for Liverpool. That's GONNA be a new commission existing work but it's good that her prominence is is is not the big show and then all goes quiet again. We've barely skim the surface. But I think there's a lot of food for thought. There are a lot of things to inspire listeners to trot off to their local museums Josie reason. Thank you very much. Thank thank you can get the year head a month by month guide to twenty twenty. If you subscribe wiped the newspaper to find the subscription to you visit the art newspaper Dot Com and Click on the subscribe link at the top left of the homepage. Please subscribe to the podcast if you you haven't already and if you've enjoyed it leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts. The Art newspaper Podcast is produced by Judy Him. Housego Dawson David. Clack and David is also the editor Sir. Thanks to Anna Margaret Louisa and Josie. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week. We have an interview with the artists can movement about his extraordinary commission for the Great Hall of the Metropolitan Melissa Museum of art in New York

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The Notre Dame fire and Cold War Steve

The Art Newspaper Weekly

50:18 min | 1 year ago

The Notre Dame fire and Cold War Steve

"Yeah. These people put Costes brought to you in association with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bombs dot com. Hello. It's the art newspaper coast. I'm Ben, Luke. Thanks for joining us later in the cost. I talked to Christopher Spencer. The man behind this tirico images that are taken Twitter by storm over the past couple of years under the name, Cold War. Steve capturing perhaps more acutely than anyone else. The madness of Britain in the Brexit era. But I this week. There's no doubt what the big cultural stories the fire not Dom in Paris, which United many of us in despair at what appeared at one stage to the destruction of one of the world's greatest monuments to human civilization. It turns out, of course, that much of the building was Mercifully saved. Jonathan Foyle is an architectural historian writer and broadcaster. He's a former curator of historic buildings at the historic role. Palacio the UK and has written books on England's greatest gothic buildings including the cathedrals in Canterbury and Lincoln Jonathan joins me on the line. Now Jonathan we were all in varying states of despair on on Monday night. It seems like it's not as bad as we at least one. In point were fearing is that your assessment. Of course, the first impression is one of two chaos, and destruction and despair. And of course, you can't predict the outcome with a with a fire that big in that fierce one tends to anticipate the worst with a large building like that. It's a very complex picture. We can look back on other examples of major buildings that suffered FIS like Windsor Castle in nineteen Ninety-three. And of course, we're out the other end of that. And we can see the silver lining of archaeology. We can see new design and new chapter life at Windsor. But the point of damage to what extent it is a wound or whether it's crates the entire collapse of the building. Of course, you cannot anticipate that and frankly, it's still too early to say what the extent of the damage is. We tend to think the next morning when the smoke clears all the wiser. But in fact, that's when the. Alice's starts to begin. Indeed. So what do we know at this point? What what damage you? Are. We certain has been done. Okay. Well, it's again to Hobbs with great buildings like this we've seen numerous cathedral fires in the twentieth. Century through war, the roof rigs ample Reims cathedral was lost during the first World War. So we have seen the complete loss of volts coming crashing down into Checchi's wool still stand in the reconstruction of votes in the refurnishing of those churches is part of the story of the twentieth century. We've seen for example, utter destruction places like Coventry where a new building has replaced the shell. Now in this case what we're looking at with gothic buildings is something quite new because this is not bombing an Tillery fire as seen in the twentieth century. It is a fire on the. The roof which is a forest of timber in the French coast cool at Ruth the forest and when limestone reaches temperatures of something above nine hundred celsius. It's does to Kelsen. This is where the complications come in. Because the damage is immediately obvious the council nation is the chemical change of limestone that he begins to change to kind of powder. Basically, the constituent of mortar. Now, there's another issue, and that is intense heat on volt which seems to be the savior of this of this thing seems to protected much of the interior of of Notre dumb will actually when you subject a volts like that too intense hate and then pump thousands of gallons of cold water on it. You can end up with a lot of heat fracture. And of course, then there's a long cooling down process from such temperature take several days to cool down. And it's in that time. That one shouldn't be surprised to find further volt collapses. In fact, that's what happened when the fire was out still smoldering, that's when the crossing of volt seemed to fall in. And of course, we know that they're they're other holes where the volt Webb has collapsed. It may not be the end of it. Because the process of the building cooling down settling again and trying to rebalance those stresses is an ongoing issue, and in particular, that's the case with these giant gothic buildings because they are in engineering terms their network of captain equillibrium, the cage like structure is close to home together. Because the way to those volts pushing outwards counted by the flying buttresses pushing the weight in to create an eco Librium forces now when you take away half of the weight than the other half wants to push in into the void. And that's. No doubt part of the equation that structural engineers having to wrestle with. What is the effect for the first time ever of the loss of weight from those volt webs having disappeared? What does that do to the full season the outside of the building pushing in? So what I'm saying is yes, we've seen destruction before, but the destruction hasn't ended yet not until the building settled down and until structurally in engineering terms, it stabilized Oviously like any very oh building to dumb has been through a tremendous amount of rupture over the years. Can you give us the sort of a brief issue time line of what's happened with this cathedral? Okay. So I'm Paris was a Roman city and building on an island was the natural thing to do the topography than the beauty of situation of not too dumb is a result of good judgment on the part of the Romans ultimately. And what came out of that Roman city was quite a large church. Called 'em Santa Steph since Stephen which was built half outside the west front of not Dom and half of it remains inside. So that's a an early medieval basilica type church. It was one of the proto marches since Stephen. And it was quite popular church for several hundred years. However that was by the second century, a church of not Trudeau smaller one more or less in line with Santa Steph, which is under the main altar of not done is interesting. How often great churches perpetuate the sites of previous focuses of worship, and you can take that back to for example, wells cathedral being situated on a well. You know? You know, so many cases in which that happens as perpetuation of an important site of worship. So this small church of not dumb, and it's quite frequent actually that churches would dedicated to the Virgin Mary in those early centuries. There is something of a growing cult of Mary though, which came both in France and England in the years around eleven hundred and so for Stephen to be demolished and the Bishop MAURICE desouza lead to start after ten eleven sixty rather to begin a church too. Not redux Our Lady as part of the cult of the virgin which saw lady chapels develop in England already by that time, the Cistercian order had dedicated every one of their churches to the Virgin Mary. And there were very many ways in which the virgin could be interpreted largely because she wasn't featured remotely heavily in the bible. The gospels overlook Mary and so later post biblical legend fills the picture with quite a lot of projection, and you know, legend, and so any image of Mary should never lose a beauty contest. You never get past a twenty's. She's an ideal is woman and as the perpetual, virgin, lots of characteristics architecturally become conflicted with our identity. One of them, for example, is polished marble columns seem to be the burden the bride Bez. She womb was impenetrable except to God. And so she was seen as. A metaphor for Mary was glazing windows. See find a lot of the churches of the virgin of those that pioneer larger windows, which is quite an interesting relationship between the do things light passes through glass. The glass remains in corrupted. It is the light of the Holy Spirit entering the church as the as the dove of the Holy Spirit entered Mary's womb Mary as Queen of paradise becomes associated with the Queen of heaven where she sits within a fortified garden wall in a perennial spring, and you start to see lots of imagery of platforms, which speak about this will not Trump is swept up in that coach of the virgin so in eleven sixty three that's really in full swing, and she is the only Saint she's the everyone's mother in heaven, and and will always win a prize for in best Saint competition in England, we have Walsum, for example. But a curious number of churches, like souls, Bree and Lincoln Worcester? A dedicated to the virgin in England, so not Dom raise. It is raised on the central island. In in Paris at the Ilda Perry to the north is the defensible area. Lots of castella building before it swept away in the age of reason to the south is the university at this point really coming into its own as the predominant European university. Where most of the great churchman a schooled and that university does pioneer nearing things like translates copies of Euclid which announced being gathered after the opening up the Mediterranean, the crusades the rest of it the interest in classical Greek texts, especially actually from Arabic libraries and the university of Paris that area does things like translates Euclid. And therefore, we now have a clear understanding of ancient Greek Joma tree, and it's not much of a step to imagine the consequence of that expansion of knowledge into three dimensional geometric approach to architecture. So the confession of prison learning and the. Cult of the virgin creates the first giant amongst gothic cathedrals on this site at the time when Paris is entering its golden age from the late twelfth into the thirteenth century it Burgess really into the premise city of Europe Romans tiny by this point. And and Paris is where it's at. So this island is half owned by the king and the palaces at the West End, and the east end is the Bishop of moisture sue Lee who is building Notre Dom really consolidating all experiments in gothic structure to create really a crucible of gothic design that was the blueprint for the perfect expressions in places like boys after eleven ninety five and into the thirteenth century, so not the very first gothic cathedral. But it is nonetheless an enormously influential gothic cathedral in front. It's it is enormously. Influential picked up on experiments in the area around Paris. So some Matangi, Sean, for example, in the eleven twenty s was trying to replace wall with glass through many conjoined chapels that's done at a low level where it structurally, quite safe. And there are some interesting examples in an around the classic the exemplar being sandy. I mean that didn't come from nowhere as its patron at Suzhou north of Paris would like to believe, but he's one of those people who is essentially supported the king gave the king the authority of God and sent the German armies, packing and Abbott Suchet was delighted by the metaphysics of light his church was dedicated to send any early Parisian mater, and who became the patron saints of France, the patron Saint of Paris, by the way was Sanjin Vive. But shows you how the virgin Plato Trump card over the patron Saint of. But these experiments places like Santa ni this is a curious completion, we tend to think of the Gulf IQ as an expression of modernity and of pure kind of architecture. There are characteristics of it. We think of pointed arches, we look at stone volts, we think of flying buttresses trying to reconcile those forces. But there are other issues at play. And one of them is the idea that authority comes from antiquity. We never escape that in the middle ages. It wasn't a total game of modernity and places like Santa knee, Abbott Suchet was interested in dredging, the Tiber to get hold of mobile columns from Rome to come in basically, create this as a new kind of ro more gusting city of God might come to mind with the authority that he was drawing on. So you have gothic cathedrals on what looked like classical columns and not dumb in the eighteenth century when classism was really bound by its own rules. Drew? The iron sometimes discussed Casseus will look what happened someone's put some monstrous columns underneath which totally squat and the wrong. Kind of support for these soaring ribs that shoot off two hundred fifteen feet in height it because not Dom knew it was on an ancient site is looking for the language of Roman authorities. So it's kind of basilica, but that basilica with E L Aji that they'd embraced became the new Jerusalem on earth. And so that numerous quality of stained glass, biblical messages, the sense that you walk in through the doors, and it's the last judgment in the middle of not don's west portal. It's that which takes you into something quite removed from the old fashioned timber roofs and ironically, fire prone buildings with thick walls that these Parisian's with the command of engineering and Joma tree and theology wanted to escape from and frankly reached to the heavens. Dumb is the first building four stories. It's phenomenally toll. It's Tolan Westminster Abbey. Awesome pulls in London. And people must have watched it rise in the course of sixty seventy years after eleven sixty three with no small amount of all indeed at tell me about the the subsequent changes. You talk about this is that it drew from later generations. We also know about the that is a great ruptures in the revolution. For instance, suffered some changes from the Huguenots. It's it's had a checkered history and and long periods of being relatively unloved. What it has and Atelli what Morris the Suli that Bill from eleven sixty three wouldn't have recognized it as it was finished in twelve forty because it looked places like reams and coupled some of its technology so that the toll windows at the top learned from early thirteenth century development. So the thing was developing. Before it was even finished the the four stores were turned into three simply because they could build window so large at the top and France was pretty stable in the thirteenth century must be said. Whereas when you get into later centuries, you mentioned the Huguenots and the influence of Calvinism, and the culture of desecration is absolutely part of that. That the the riots from the fifteen sixties not all quantified, we know more about the French revolution. It must be said. But even the French revolution the late eighteenth century came a hundred years after the French kings decided that this doc interior was very much old fashioned. And they wanted to put model down on the floor, and they wanted to pull all of the staying that's windows out because those big luminous interiors of whitewashed northern European churches painted by artists like Sandra, damn a, you know, that was all the rage. So the big changes came with a lot of goodwill and modernizing. So by the time, we get to the French revolution. This was already a much changed building. But they sort as a the attempts of reason, essentially, they swu- they changed their minds on that. And eventually as all revolutionary leaders. Do Napoleon wanted to be king Indians him and Josephine were crown there in eighteen. Four that coronation, but. What we what we would see at. That point is a building that suffered from waves of iconoclasts would have hacked the heads of the characters on the west front and everywhere else, frankly, where they survived and it's remarkable how in the twentieth century some of that was actually recovered the Metropolitan Museum of art in late nineteen seventies had an exhibition of sculpted heads which were discovered in a courtyard in Paris having been buried all facing Notre Dom because someone who picked them up and revered the church figured that one day they may end up going home while they're in museums now, but nonetheless, we are learning more about the regional shape of this church, which by the nineteenth century was essentially, quite cavernous and devoid of much of its original detail that was reinvested by architects led by via Leyla do it from the eighteen. Forties. And part of the popularisation was inevitably the taste forgotten was happening in England as it was in France, the the rise of antiquarian ISM. The reverence for the past rejection of an increasingly mercantile modern age had kind of an an admiration for the piety and artistry of the mid ladies, the investment in culture, and so do in attempting to put some of that back is largely responsible for the stained glass for the flesh that rises from the roof of the of Nacho Dom. And indeed for quite a lot of re sculpting and the restitution of heads on the the major portals. So yes, it's it's appearance in the nineteenth century was more medieval than it had been for several years. But it was largely the product of a kind of artifice in pretending that nothing changed. It was villa spire flesh. As you say the so dramatically. Fairly or not if you like the of conic image of the fi the other night. Which cathedral? Do we want to see rebuilt, I suppose, that's that's a philosophical question that will be played out over over the weeks months years to come. I guess. Well, see viola do not only restored not Dom. But the censorship hell, which is the chapel of the French kings in the palace on the same island. So you might see that as something of an unsolvable. In fact. The king Lou the ninth gave one of the transept windows to Nacho Domin. Not Don as inherited the relic from the sunshine L, which is that of the crown of Thome's, which was paraded through Europe to be invested in the king's chapel wasn't Sanish. Uphill specifically built to house. The crown it was from twelve thirty eight century L rose. And it was in a sense structurally, more miraculously than Notre dumb. And if you see the relationship between Notre Dom and sensu appel as a king supported by Bishop, but in a sense, but measured by kind of expression of outburst of humility, that's the problem kings. Have there was born into privilege, and so they have to be a bit holier than thou and be conspicuously giving up on their luxuries by being close to God in pious manner. So just to say that that villa Duke is responsible for not just not done, but on samba, and I always think that what? Left of the French Paddison, which is essentially sunshine Pell and not Trump two buildings in dialogue with each other. Not just in the thirteenth century and he looked not dominancy the gallery of kings over the west doors. You can see the Bishop is holding the king in check and supporting needed. Incorrect. Any subject to things like tyranny, you go to censure Pell, these king displaying, his piety investing, basically, the gross national product of France in the purchase of some some Brambles and putting it and building glass and stone cage around it, but it's a wonderful dialogue between these two buildings and villa? Do is ultimately responsible for the presentation of these buildings full the last one hundred sixty years, so what we've all been used to is part of a nineteenth century inheritance. In some ways as much as it is of a thirteenth century. Inheritance? This is a layered history. As if you treat one building in isolation of the other and say arbitrary what's dog you want today. I mean, I have to say I think it's horrific news that will ready. The French president's saying, let's have a competition architects around the world, give us a new jazzy spoil it. I mean, I think that's entirely wrong headed because the consideration of the the the cultural on samba will the structural evidence within not Tradati what is led history has supported and how that might be expressed or to precede the brief for its treatment. So this doesn't awful lot to consider. I think putting it back. As was is may be the knee jerk reaction is what happened to the entire city of wall sort coast to pretend that nothing happened in World War Two, and that can be quite a palliative thing. Windsor an entirely different philosophical approach saying this building has long volved. In fact, George. The fourth gave us a pretty weak and crappy gothic holes. Let's have a better one twenty foot twenty th century terms. Twentieth century and both of those approaches valid, but they are ultimately reasoned. And I wonder whether the immediate outpouring of financial donations to not Dom which had his begging bowl out for the last ten years and was working on a budget. I believe six million euros, which is poultry rebuilding that size. It won't go anywhere. And now we're talking about half a billion dollars. Suddenly, they can do everything and that. The critical path for major projects on sizable cathedrals of many centuries of lead history. Frankly, should take about three years before you start to get going to launch a competition within a few days, I think is pretty horrific and not Elta going to end in a very satisfactory conclusion. So I think hopefully that might be abandoned at some point and reason might prevail. It was a temple of reason for awhile it can be again. Jonathan thank you so much for talking to us about it. Thank you. Jonathan foils books on Lincoln, and Canterbury cathedrals up published by scholar. We'll be back to Christopher Spencer or Cold War. Steve after this. Dynasty that will Persia throughout the nineteenth century initiated, a cultural revival, which has recently reputation of the art world with major shows at this myth Sonia. And that the lose the dominant figuring courage or history was fast alesha early in his two year reign grasp the soft power value to a nation shattered by a bloody civil war to project. An imposing image of his imperial might at home and abroad. Fa'afili commissioned life size portraits of himself one of which is offered in bonuses Lamitan Indian out sale in London on the thirty April as a white head of his Lasik and Indian Arctic. Bottom says quote, faithfully Shah's reign month. The resurgence of Persian culture in these large-scale portrait of him become some of the rarest objects in the Islamic art. Find out more visit bottoms dot com. Welcome back. Now, the voters started Wyndham Lewis once said that SATA has a great big glaring target. If successful, it blasts a great big hole in the centre. Christopher Spencer has blown a great big hole into the pretensions of the people who promoted and are attempting to deliver Brexit Britain's withdrawal from the UPN union. He's also taking aim at Donald Trump, Kim Jong earn various other figures in power, but he's done. So in the most unlikely way through a Twitter account called mcfadden's, Cold War or Cold War, Steve which acquired a cult following a couple of years ago and has since grown to attract more than one hundred sixty two thousand followers, easy, an apple his iphone. He collage images of world leaders and politicians into a dystopia nostalgic. World delapidated caravans nicotine stain holiday parks. Putting them into the company of some of the most infamous absurd hubristic and unfortunate figures in British pop culture and sport of the last half century. The one consistent presence in the is Steve McFadden the act. Ter- who plays? The gritty voiced walking disaster. That is Phil Mitchell in EastEnders one of Britain's longest running soap operas as well. As the number of executions code will Steve is now released a book published by Thames and Hudson called the festival of Brexit. I'm delighted that Christopher Spencer joins me on the line. Now, Chris I'd like to go back to the beginning. When you first started you called it Cold War, Steve, and it very much was about Steve Steve McFadden in sort of Cold War situations. Yes. I mean that that's how it started. I was playing around with photo montage, very spicy on's. Enough puts Steve McFadden as he's EastEnders. Current to film it in a Cold War seen one the earliest once was a drunk confirmatory Houghton scotch and just to keep it into a crowd and put him on the balcony with freshness in a mayday parade the in Moscow, and the incongruence of and just the Dwight looks really lights on might be on to something here. An carry on in vain radius, Cold War scenes with him in it. And it did get very popular which was trading. But then after time I seen swan joke, and it was where to seeing those running hours photos, and I started to to develop a bit more into introduced few new new characters which didn't go up time while with with hard core code will stay fans to begin with. Yeah. Said in the those Dillwyn lexical most they were demanding a return to more strict, buck bicyc-, Steve. But I didn't on. It it not truly evolved really into to what it has eventually become. Can you say something about about why you chose Steve McFadden was was completely random? Sorts are used. I mean the pictures of him. Terrific to as much, but he matting. Drunk, call made crack cocaine session, the brilliant. He sees facial expressions and everything, and I think not you started to the jokes position of him. In the Oval Office with Reagan freed since marriage world used his. Image a few times before. Now, the things be messing around with any any always looks in the most funniest, and that's something. That's why is in the end one of the things that really comes through in the text in your book is that the kind of impetus rule. This is yes to amuse people then to create situations, which are absurd but note. There is a very profound anger underneath all this. And I guess that has really flowered in as we've seen the whole Brexit process on Ravel ES nuts. That's the main points of is is to use really. But also at the same time, which is in the great sedition of SaaS IRA in an art. It's to get people to let it almost despite themselves have the the the horror and stow Pierre scenes, the often news. But but being able to laugh along with that must makes it more powerful familiar anyway that sets and yes, we see emerges, Trump Brexit. It said it's fertile ground for that for my Kanda Huma, and that state D in east very much and continues to be a coping mechanism for me. You know, if day we hear something new that's going on with with with bricks, and I can channel Molly anxieties into composition. Hopefully makes people laugh, but also makes people. Angry with with the it's responsible for all you talk about your anxiety. I mean, you've been again in the text, and and and and generally use you spoken about your experience with mental illness. And how these images making these images help to out that process if it's not too painful, you tell our listeners about that experience does not fall. It did come out a combat as as coke mechanism. Decided to channel my anxieties into doing something. Creative and constructive rather than just guessing drunken and renting and half. You. It was a super with mental health Mahal adult life Mumbai owners. But then at the beginning of twenty six it reached it sits lowest points, and then which lets appeared in Spittal and suicide attempts and coming out of hospital. Visit among Russell got sit in autism of always done even been working in didn't quote menial jobs for the rest. Twenty years was always something that. I did and joy and bought me comfort. So that's what started with it, the the photomontage and collages and then where with now we see Twitter. I was I share them not really thinking anyone would pick upon them as such but to have people. Just like them all retrieve or comments and. And was brilliant instance. Reaction from someone. Was was such a help and continues to be actually is as it's grown beyond all initiative in popularity. It's you know, the feet from from people. As might such a positive effect for me and Margaret cover. You know, it's it's Stephanie helped it's never been better. Great to hear. I mean, it definitely does feel like community and online community. You wish you issue a new image pretty much daily or not more than once daily. And then there's this outpouring of yes amusement, but also a sense of shared frustrations of of shared a shared sense of the absurdity of our current situation. And and say that must be enormously gratifying is it's it's like you said, it's it's an online community of like minded people. We all know. Fasted that the people that are involved in this. But we're all. Seeking solace. Almost in in in laughing at them and another bizarre. Brooke soc- tear, it's to who shouldn't be anywhere near the. Popular culture, Mark, Francois? For instance, crops up the ridiculous, but we can all share a joke. Ebanks Rogers and runs swear about what an absurd idiot mount Francois ease. And he's he's beliefs and opinions ridiculous just to have him in a picture. Mocking him somewhat visually. People get a sense of. Relief from that that we can laugh at them and people pick up on it, and the the different threads that goes through each picture returning supplants almost and people get have favorite characters and snow goes and. Particularly Cilla black is the mind water for those with relied to or not she has to feature somewhere in there. But it's it you can see that people. Enjoy finding the different things then carried through combat the haven't used for while. Danny Dyer and Cameron. Oh, yeah. Dollars back who certificate? And this great fun. I'd like to compete about the settings that you want because I was really intrigued to read in the acknowledgments of the book that you actually have have borrowed images as it were from Martin Parr. Who obviously is another great source of you could argue another great satirical. I can you tell me about your relationship with Martin. Well, it's been a huge more of his world. You see fifty years and years. And then when I was so seeing a background pitchers of we sleep come across some of Simba's brilliant work, especially the last resort pitches of new Brighton in Mosey side didn't early eighties, and that you are these they lent themselves. So well to to doing soy used one of without asking him to it. Pitcher and shared impose it, and he actually got into with me voyeur Instagram. Zinke was a saw Martin parts are message Mahar cycle. No, please. Don't let me say off annoyed all my hero. He's to Monday. So I didn't. And so looks own an each said, absolutely brilliant. Can I have a copy of it? Coast can also got yours drain. If. You know, I've got a book potentially coming out swinging. How would go out get into mission sisters use some of you'll you'll stiffen, and he was brilliant. You said, yes. You know, you slim and do them and juice Samir song copy of the book, which was which singe when he said the house. Wow. What a rich seam of backgrounds. We're going to have here. So that was fun to state and a bidding touch since this few potential. Some couldn't be doing the year that hope y'all can get. Awesome par- involved with in warmer does a repeat. But yeah, don't be nuts to have. Someone of food more for so many years to have concerts in that relationship is just blows me away. Actually, I'm really intrigued also by the way that you look back at popular culture, but also sort of elements sort of nostalgic elements of British life, particularly from your childhood in the seventies and the eighties, and I'm wondering about the selection process. You know, how how do you? How do you go about seeking these things things just pop in your head? And you think oh, I must look for for instance, bungle who's this really obscure character from a British TV program in the nineteen seventies. And eighties. All characters the who are particularly absurd within your your colleges come up, and it seems very acute to me that you'll sensibility in terms of how you choose these figures. Yes, people ask me how to solitu- who goes in who doesn't who. This does know former such is just a. Unlike it's something call some may puffy my head as on composing the piece I'll see a corner all Bush or something on some come to mind that might look good there. The original bungle, for instance, who's horrific look in some inist scared. The hell at me when I was little. That that's quite powerful thing testament. That scared me when I was little scenario scared me as a novel in the scene just makes it makes the point even more disturbed pin perhaps to distort pinpoint some one of the enduring characteristics of the of the photo montages is is the character, Kim Jong UN and in a way, I think almost the most dystopia element is the man who we could probably objectively say is the most evil of all the characters feature in the collages is similar Tennessee. The most cheerful and joyful throughout. Yeah. Are only use pitches. Kim beyond where he's he's laughing all jolly, and he's he's immi- work is very much in the bullion. Jokey you people getting such. So you've changed my opinion of him. You know, lots of guts, the put him be seems a good laugh. So. Real good less much us get shots poison. But. But yet again, it's it's just at to the Mideast such. In the in the sense of Gilroy using these absurd characters Kim Yong on is is definitely really bizarre grotesque creation. When you couldn't you will most couldn't create ovoid someone that year dance to where he dresses, his hair and everything. Yet completely despot, but emol pitchers his his his joyful and jolly. Which is playing with the whole thing. Again, ready was him to me about the historical content of the work. When I first wrote about your work, I was responding to a particular image which had some old women sitting on a bench and behind them. Danny Dyer was sort of jumping out at David Cameron in a scene, which look very much like a relational picture of the enunciation. And I'm just wondering since made a very direct reference to Braga, for instance, in the hunters in the snow do what historical references crop up regularly. Yes. Off more than often not a conscious decision. She's the way a pitcher Mark be forming fail of don't intentionally set might one that looks renaissance period who exceptions. But after. The ship of fools copy which renamed ship of twats and find a really good rusty abundant boat. An copied it. Try to mimic its best could with characters in each place where but he'd put them and also Breukels. Unto seeing the snow, which is one of my favorite paintings of all time, actually. So I scoured to try and find a simple background and. And put them in there. This servant slow, but mine was considered snow and seal the all the characters of used are. People always think. Tune this country pond might secure pleasant place. But things I've been people say, no. No, one might be nice on slowly can nuts. You know of don't sits at sometimes to do. But concede that that commits together with different people that they do take on that that seems specially some of the the endured behind the competency taught months as well. Position in certain. Couches in some positions gives them not for nice feel to them. The Bosch is probably the biggest influence of sorts, especially Mark grand apiece where that could take days tonight because many different things and try and get the different soup. Lots in almost if the piece into a triptych almost if econo- could sit down might three sections of it. And also that the some of the symbolism and imagery nightmarish convictions in them. You started off making these images on on an iphone my right in thinking that. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And in a way that sort of deliberate crudeness about them, and I know that of professional Photoshop go in touch with you to tell you that you're you haven't got the shopping, right? But that's not what it's about is it. Now, I'm salute in most of the pictures in the book about Nancy. He odd percent of the ones in the book were might on my often follies, it's not even a particular big offer an spic, and it was still you know, of that auditor on the purse into work. In a bit bits of time here and there so they're very quite spontaneous. And don't have now. Now of sold it the principal to invest in only pad pro. I still do the starts the phone. And then I mean, they are per night to get much consuming and get get more detail into it. But even then I don't want to look real I want to maintain that crudeness all day. Ethic to it, and it Costa at sedate incongruency of it. And. You know, a Bosch painting, for instance, doesn't really sits intention events and not real. But it's doesn't at if only started when apple really expensive computer and started doing exquisite Photoshop think of just that rate would lose Mia for thinking, you wouldn't feel right. And the the the time it would take to do it like that they would lose their their sponsor night because often is very much getting into. The stone almost of tastes number going through it and pulling characters and putting them in. And it's it's very fluid as sometime in the academic that if if you really planned out in. A photo shop. I was wondering what Tim what format e feel is best for the images. Because now you're making images which go in books, you're printing, your you're selling prints, and you've had 'exhibition, but still for me I'd say like the pure code was Steve experiences that online experience where you can do. You can use your fingers to expand the image and go ROY up close. It you see that as a sort of as the purest form of of your images or are you making different images for different formats, for instance. I mean, this is wary. You know, Twitter was cumbersome swear, we started and very much is. The soul of what I do. The people in sitting whereas they are on the right to me on on certain sections. And and that's the the joy of it. Prince is the prince of sold of the good size of this and the very Holly quality prints does no need to to zoom in a search. But I think the online. Social media platform is where we started very it is best almost. But I mean, that's not to say. Attorney enjoy in the Polk because that's fantastic temps in. Hudson. Did a brilliant job with it. It. People say they say, you know, they they don't. They can't zoom in on the book, but they do use magnifying glasses. And so. This this ways around it. But I think it's digital instant format gets it. But. Books and prints its and to have an win of couple of exhibitions when the first exhibition at the social under walked in. And I saw these these. Pitches. Enlarged the down the scene on the phone and most of which had forgotten to turn even was just incredible. She's adult undertakes with decide which ones we're gonna put up on the walls. So I largest send all you do what you want and literally stuck all the for. There's all to energy again at it's the whole basis of it really to see them. Big ever seen them before. Also, just blew me away. Also fantastic. So. Don't be constrained to just doing them. For for Twitter and things like that. In europe. Text you mentioned the some people who've accused you bad taste because you using images of Niger Farraj after he'd been injured in a helicopter accident. Would you tell us why you think it's appropriate to use that image, and it just amazing people got into site. That's very poor taste, you know, you could've died in that plane crush, but more response is was is and will visit he himself from represents what he's doing and more. He has done is far more. But the may put a picture of him blood eaten and lining been talking about bad taste is the Pitt Smith, but I answered the people moan about the post crush foul Shaw or just gently remind them that there's nothing that could do with that image would be anywhere near as stomach. What he does and says in real life Amen to that. Chris. Thank you so much for joining us. That's right. You moon workers chat? You can follow Chris on Twitter at Cold War underscores Steve and the festival of Brexit is out now through Thames and Hudson impressed at twelve ninety five in the UK. And that's it for this week do subscribe, if you haven't already done, so and if you're enjoying the cost please give us a rating or review on I teams because it helps others to find us. You can follow us on Twitter at ten audio and the art newspapers on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, of course, if you'd like to read more from the newspaper, then why not subscribe to our daily newsletter? So that you won't miss out on any of the latest developments in the art world. Visit the newspaper dot com and click the newsletter link that the top right of the page. The art newspaper podcast is produced by Judy housekeeper Amy Dawson, and David Clack and David so does the editing. Thanks jonathan. And Chris thanks to you for listening. Enjoy Easter weekend. And we'll see you next week. The newspaper association with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more. Visit Burnham's dot com.

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Special: the rise and rise of contemporary African art

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:03:04 hr | 2 years ago

Special: the rise and rise of contemporary African art

"Yeah. Each people house. These brought to you in this OC with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three with expertise in more than sixty categories of collecting it specialists will connect you with your passion. Find what defines you at Bonhams dot com. Hello and welcome to the art newspaper poker I, I'm Ben league this week. We focus on African art with five people in vote in different ways with creating showing selling and collecting work from the African continent. All five of based in London. Where next week is the freeze out fair opens. So too, does the one fifty, four contemporary African art, fair. I talked to l. growly the daughter of Moroccan artists Hasaan l. glory to your launch the one fifty, four fair in London in twenty thirteen. I'm also joined by Toby Clark of Vigo gallery. One of the galleries at this year's fair and speak to Larry at UM pong, British Ghanaian artists doing a special project at one fifty, four of the curator Elvira Jan Gani, oh, say, who's being appointed as director of London showroom gallery and speak to jails peppier the director of modern and contemporary African art Bonham's about the forthcoming Africa now auction I to the one fifty, four art fair this year is sick addition in London set as ever in the historic Somerset house on the banks of the Thames it bills itself as the leading international art fed etiquette, it too. Temporal from African style aspe- and has annual phase in New York Marrakesh as well as in London. Fair was founded by l. cloudy and Turia is with me now to. Yeah, I wonder if you could start by just took a little bit about your background because you're father was an artist. Yes. I grew up in an artistic whom you know. So my father was quite an established artist in Morocco, and it was quite a different probably, you know, upper raising than most the most of the people I knew in Morocco, at least. So that gave me, I guess my first art education when I was really young and you know, he kind of encouraged us to discover artists and be very excited about anything that was being creative around us. Is there any connection between that and staging, an art fair in the sense that did you perceive the there was not a sort of forum for the presentation of Moroccan artists or Africa? Not is more widely definitely helped because I was working. Being inputting catalogers for his work, and I kind of understood by doing that while I had a completely different professional life that the international visibility was extremely important for his work. And this is why he was able to be so successful in Morocco. And then for my professional life, I had the chance to go a lot to Africa for work and because you know having fathers artists, it was kind of my reference to trying to discover what was going on into the local art scenes when are stuck for weekends of holidays there. And I think that maybe my careers, it's about trying to discover African artists while I wasn't. Those African countries is sparky thanks to him, but then feel like, you know, it's also the idea of like having seen all those wonderful artists, you know that on honestly blown my mind way. But when I was coming back to Europe to the US, there was absolutely no trace of what I had just seen in Africa, and I think it's a mixture of booth. I was also a bit fed up of what I was doing. And I think this all of different variables that. Along. But like I think that, you know, one of the major, you know, I think enlightenment to had was that those artists did not get the visibility deserve, and it's were not crossing over, you know, the geographical boundaries, and I thought that was important and feel that I knew could do this as a platform, and that was what was needed for them to get. You know, some kind of international recognition and play into the, you know, the international arts fears. Willis, certain conditions that had started to emerge that made you think it would be a success? Was there a sense in which they was they was more international interest in African out developing or was it? What was the sign that told you that he felt that this could be a success? To be honest started working on the fair in two thousand and of two thousand eleven two thousand twelve, you know? And at that time I remember that I was sure that if I was talking around to the people in the art world here about my project that they would have told me that that platform existed somewhere. You know, I was quite surprised that it didn't thought they would be version of it somewhere or like a trial at least than it didn't work out, etc. But I didn't see this coming, but it's true that starting in two thousand and twelve trying to search, you know, bit the market and understanding it bit more from London perspective. I got to understand that the Tate was planning to have data condition committee and their whole program, and then. There was one or two major exhibition that was going around in Europe, etc. But those events were so rare at the time that you know, it kind of made me, you know, feel relieved to know that the Tate was doing something because obviously when they focus on obviously region within it in the past with Latin America, you know, it kind of sets, you know, some kind of like positiveness into the discovery of a particular region, you know. So that was very good news indeed. And that followed up with two, you know, solo shows at the Tate of two African artists the same year as was doing the fair. So let's say that all those eventually just helps. You know, one fifty four to have a great successful year Ricky to fifty four in a sense. He's in its in its name in the sense that you. I mean, I think we'll talk quite loss on this podcast on Africa being a continent of fifty four countries and therefore to talk about Africa is problematic in those ways, but still in in a sense, but Coney at one fifty. Four you're saying is you want to represent the diversity of African. Of course. I think this is very important because I never you know attended. Had you know the, I guess the the probably the vanity of thinking, you know, that could represent Africa at one, fifty four, you know, I mean, my dear was really providing a platform for artists coming from the continent and the Jasper and giving them a voice, giving them visibility and trying to showcase the best. You know that I could this immense continents and the being able to call it one for the continent. Fifty four for the countries that represent was a good way of, you know, share sharing the, I guess, the the diversity and. Tippety see of artists that we could see at one fifty four, but we never were able to showcase the whole continent. Since we've started. You know, it's obviously not something yet that we can do because there's so much to discover the so much artists that we didn't have the yet the possibility to to share to share with the origins here. Can you tell me a bit about the sort of relative richness of different regions in Africa and all you able to represent certain regions in much greater depth than others? Yes, of course. Because to be honest, are some regions that are much more developed developed from an artistic scene point of view than others. So you know, South Africa has been leading the way for quite a long time. So if you go to South Africa, you know, you have like this whole ecosystem of galleries of auction, houses of like they have a huge collector base so they are in the league of their own, you know. But you know, they have also been able to be part of the international market much more than the rest of Africa. And then you know, you obviously go to. Countries like north in north Mara collection, easier Morocco. Also that have, you know, obviously had quite an interesting, you know, art scene and for a long period of time, and they've loved their own collector base. And then you have the new up and coming in countries like Nigeria, Ghana, you know, who have seen, you know, in the past five years in immense, you know, boom, you know, when it comes to artistic galleries opening and the and auction house starting think LEGO said its first auction house in two thousand and seven, and it really helps stabilize the market as well. So I think you know, those regional say are where we've seen the most of things happening in the past six years. But you know, for example, like the last two years, you know, we had the new galleries in this Bill. For example, in old change, you know, the perspective of what we're seeing I disobeyed before because the start participating in international art fairs, bringing their artists, you know, in this group of international fairs as well, and that you know, gives people, you know, whole different angle and. View on, you know art from each ups that you never seen before, and it's a, it's a bit the same. You know, story of, you know, for example, Ghana, you know, you have a gallery that started opening three to two years ago now and have done great things like showcasing, you know, art from Gonda, you know, all over, you know, Europe and the US and that you know changed. You know how people even heard about Gartner before because they didn't really see any artist from God, nine international art. I know you able as an institution is Asian to sort of actually help develop those scenes you in a way you sort of a middle person as opposed to a so to direct sort of creative agent if you like, well, I believe, and I want to think that we're all you know to to drive the growth of, you know what's happening in Africa. So we have helped into several galleries to come to one fifty four and to showcase their work either by giving them spaces, or you know, trying to help them find grants to come to one fifty, four. Guide them through the process or you know. So for us, it's extremely important that we can show his galleries that never has been seen in the in in Europe or in the US before I think what we've done and doing more and more and the always depends on the budget we have, but also supporting activities on the continent because I think it's extremely important and it helps you develop their own local collector base, which is quite important for the future of what we do. And so in the past, you know, we were able either to support directly locally, you know, different knowledge. So you know, we have an amazing in Bamako that you know has been an ongoing, you know, being Nala with amazing work. You know that we all love, you know. But you know, they always like all of us need sponsors and things. And I think it's stream portent because they are bringing us new artists that we have never seen before that, you know will be the artists will present a twin fifty four eventually or at one fifty four. It self in London or New York. We often gave spaces to events, you know. Non-commercial, but that were happening in Africa. So one year, for example, in London we had, you know, the photo festival of disa- and we, we give them space to showcase the highlights of what was happening in Chipia. We did a project with the not of the cars well in New York, because a lot of people didn't know about the being none of the car in the US. And we thought that was quite important to have this exchange as the two eventing base at the same time, you know, in New York and in the car and to have this exchange between the two events to me about the collectors because of you have three in Morocco, New York, and London. Do you see different people? Are you seeing sort of a community developing attend three wh tell me about the collectibles. So we have a Inc, a very loyal collector base. It is not the same probably collector based. And most of the most of the third hour collector base is also immuno made of like very young collectors. Because obviously, you know, the art we are also selling is for a lot of different pockets. You know, it's, you know what you would see. Trees are Basel, but like we Abol to engage younger collector base as well. I think that depending on where the fare is, you know, in London, they have this very international European collector base who's not only there for us, but is also there for freeze at the same time and in New York. For some reason, you know, that was a bit and expected. We reach out to to be able to to to to have as a collector basil, so African American collectors. So those those are collectibles that we only reach in New York, and it's quite it's quite a nice. You know it it nicely complete, you know, our collective base, you know. So it's not just international. It's like we have African Americans collector base. There will soar able to showcase more of the African American just Bryan, New York, you know, with the with the fair and in my cash, I think it's just been very different because it's obviously a French became country compared to New York and to, you know. London. So we didn't think about that factor playing into our favor as well. So we were able to reach out to more much more Belgium, French Africa, French-speaking African collectors, which we don't the medically get in London or New York elsewhere in this, I spy continue jobs peppier from Bonhams auction house. What's interesting is he says that from from their point of view, there's a sort of a conservatism of medium if no of of Matteo of autistic material within the stuff that they are selling auction at one fifty, four feel that you were able to stretch the kind of work that you'll showing absolutely into the area of the gold. Even though, of course it is a selling fair. Well, I do believe that, you know, I do believe that you know if it's not with the galleries themselves, who might be more conservative and more, you know, trying to sell during the fares because obviously they have to make a return. And this is also why they are there for. But our special project, for example, the very emissions project we're doing with to be any Brian, Sal, hey, you know, in the courtyard are you know, sculptures that you know are quite out, say, am bishops and it's it's it's very courageous of to to take it on. We have an amazing, you know, fundation supporting this project as well. But I think it's the first time the artists and not only Ibrahima say, hey, but in the past we had other artists who were able to work on such a scale, you know, like it's immense sculpture and not everybody can pull it off and like, you know, even sell it, you know, like so I know for example, the year before we had a fantastic installation by Paschal matins I you, but it was in ephemera. Installation didn't stay, but it still wasn't amazing. You know project to do the immersion exhibition of Lahia sheep on, you know, at one fifty four this year is also this crazy project of of, you know. Recreating living room, you know? And he'll tell you more about it, but I think this is really of guard. This is definitely something that is commercial, you know, in any kind of way. And finally, you started one fifty four because he wanted greater visibility for artists from across the African continent. You've now done ten phase across the three countries. Do you think you've made steps in that direction? Is the greater visibility today? And I guess how far of we got to come? I since two thousand and thirteen I would definitely see. You know that we have increased visibility. I love to think that we had a huge role in driving the growth. You know, I think this definitely growth that is a think more confident and more more presence. You know, like you can definitely discover African arts, you know, in now international art fairs where the galleries were completely unknown or. Now known, you know, to international art fairs and the start getting invited. So the number is still small and still quite imbalanced, but this still a lot of progress that we have in completion, six years. What is very important than what we working for for example, is really that we have this constant, you know, collective base and it's not, you know. Temporary growth, but rather constant growth. And this is where you know, we, we, we are, you know, working with our collector base and like making sure that you know this visibility or this momentum we're, we are getting, you know, is something that is much more than a trend. You know that this is something that will see growing and growing. And I mean, in my opinion, we really dress starched you know the top of the iceberg to thank you very much. You welcome. Fifty. Four fair is some set house from the full to the seven Tober. Now, the Spanish Boone curator at VERA. Jan Ghani oh, say, has just started as the director of London show gallery. Having recently been accused creative time in the US before that she was a curator of international, take mutton with a special focus on modern contemporary African art. She was pointed at a key moment when the was seeking for the first time to represent art from the African continent in-depth. She's what for many years with African artists, including the Lubumbashi's by Neil in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the silent abandon Douala in Cameroon. I caught up with Elvia at the showroom to talk about her work. L. veer you've got a long history of creating exhibitions of contemporary and modern African. Can you tell me about when you start to curated those shows? What kind of presence did African I have globally. And was there a need to curate shows that was somehow corrective. Well, my first show involving African artists was in spammers Canaria in the center Olympic there where. I cook you rated. We've coming over Quincy and Tracy Marinich a show, cold all be that Kim soy erase me from Hawaii. I'm and one of the key things for me the time in a museum that traditionally was working for fifteen years trying to bring our from Africa merica and Europe together was to think about what the kind of africanus or blackness will mean in that particular context, we're talking about Spain. We talking about the to Southend, are they after military way, the bring many, the bird, many African communities to canary island into the south of Spain, and of course to Europe in the respect any was to think about what that African is, what blackness meaning that context, as I said, traditionally have presented before African are, so it wasn't something new to any fired. They were particularly keen to continue legacy. See that includes a solution such as Africa today in the time of Africa, the way curated by Simone yummy. So raised me from YM coming moment where South African artists for particular generation at the time they wear. In their late twenties, early thirties where claiming their voice in a context worse. Where perhaps the presence over resistant are, are those dealing with upper, hey, was on them and they wanted to have a voice that was different from generation. And in fact, this was the first generation of our students coming out of university in some of the cases people like nNcholas level or an undefined Tumbu animal holy, and at the time they wanted to to think about the Tracy rows. Of course, they wanted to think about this tippety who they were in a different way. They wanted to Cape Ann impose I via of what Africa in the context meant or what Africa in the context men and for them that was really crucial. So to me was sort of like we create a dialogue Equitorial and artistic that we're presenting a different face of that South African lens if he wants that help us to to question to and the question, some of the. Givens about what an African tissue represent, an African tissue, previews, how so what they were. Where where, where the confines with their project operate. And has that been a strain in a lot of your rating of shows? Both in Africa and over of African since. Yes. I mean, in fact, part of that sort of trying to subvert in the narrative of the western institutions around IBS on Africa nights was what I brought to Tate. How one is dealing with western canon institution? How can one over comment? How can challenge it. What had to remember that even if you have an international art collection that are many moments of certain our history episodes that are not represented and some shows such as Iran's allow his accession Amish governments of contemporary art, bring the possibility not only to to to take too long though to bring to London these masterpieces, but also to question the contest in Windsor to display and against what they're going to play against history. There was as you were saying. But he's not only an exercise of correction or restriction. He's an exercise of challenging the framework considering history anew. You don't have you do immerse this artist in this narrative within a given context in order to challenge in order to rethink in other to add complexity to is not as opposed to risk for any institution that has a eurocentric America Cedric collection. Then beginning to collect in Africa is the just reinforces a sort of. Colonial kind of posture. So did you sense from the tight that they were very much wanting concerned about that or wanting to make sure that they avoided that Trump? I mean, they needed the thing that they the recent to him by curator's halladay spur TS to me signal their interest over come. Those issues. It is the mental the you want to create an international collection. And obviously there is a lot of pressure to all these newcomer works that had to signify something greater in order to be part of the collection. The had to bring something transformative to the collection that over the there is a lot of pressure around that. And sometimes to me was more a question of how to make. Relevance internationally, something that was fundamental luckily right? So that that that thing without so without, that is very difficult to to think about transforming collection, like in the case of the Tate known as early only through Africa, but to many other regions come in overcoming the colonial aspect can only happen if you give something back. So at the time I ran up over and coal across the bore because that intended to prove us all the needs in Africa, with the approaches conversations impostion we attended them visited RT's and bring artists to the tape platform in a way, even sometimes in London, but mostly elsewhere. And I believe, and I hope also sort of in bathing or the areas of the organization based itution in order to bring that expertise intelligence here over own. But the, you know, we we spend time in Kumasi in crying Ana, we we went to Lego's. We were part of a Cameroonian the Salone. Sologne van that that do our organization produces every years. So all those bring that expertise, bring that asplin sation if you want to take was for me very important part of what would I intended to within the rooms of the galaxies. Right. Great. Part of that too. One of the crucial things is you have to allow that sort of the synchrony of individual community autistic communities. And in fact, we haven't yet said that this fifty four countries in Africa, there are many art world, yes. Yes. I suppose one of the key things is if you have a collection potato and take definitely does have straitjackets in the context of British show, which is by far is because collection certain types of British make take lesson. In a way, it's just it must have been slightly dizzy bringing taking rolling in the sense of, you know where he became happy happy. How'd you step forward in in so many different directions? I think you're right. But also one has to remember or lease from my perspective, temporary experiences as as fundamental as permanent collections, right exhibitions. They are part of the history of Titians and you want that to be also, but of the memory of the words that are present there. I know that what we need these few years of the supportive antitrust Bank other Tate of the Nichelle years of the African cushions committee. All those years had changed the way that take Colette in relation to Africa, but all the regions creating a thief. Atif within the sedition also helped to enhance previous known. Artistic episode. If you look at and we were son after who dreamed by Iran's changed completely the way that poetry is percent of second time they had that being in conversation with, you know, German re probably costs always change the way we see history and now, but imagine when he said that work in the sixties he was in your MoMA will have the the work them how, of course, the life of will have been completely different or maybe not. But our view of history will happy because we will have incorporated a character that help us to understand not only what African are men's, but also what he means for artists at the time more than is where coming back from Europe to their own regions tried to engage me. Then I steadied that somehow we raise of their other path while they were students in our school here, or there. Was somehow also sort of putting Diallo with with I, he study that you and I, I say, historian, have also grown on in all of this. They were exposed to something else which was like roller life everyday mass. In in that challenge the way they thought about would they learn. So they had to go through the process of learning in order to engage with these are static, injuring himself. All that will come in the now available in the two south things which is amazing for everybody to see. But I think that that is one critical issue that the had changed the way that the take resent these this region. As you say, I always say one is African, but then he's also are fifty four with being African, but also that are trillions of south of medium people and everybody feels am, can be represented Africa that is different. Thank you so much. Thank you. Now, one of the showing this one fifty four is the Vajgl gallery which shows diverse nationality, but has a particular interest in the African diaspora, an African American artists. The gallery has a show, the Sudanese artist, Abraham l. Salah. He in London, the moment and Muccio major sculpture by him at the fair Taibbi clock from the gallery is with me. Now, Toby, I'd like to you Abrahim Elsa lucky because you've been representing him now for about five years since two thousand thirteen? Yes. So so can you tell me about about on the one hand, taking him on a moment when he's international start was kind of rising monk museums and things like that and also what it means to represent him and how how how you can show he's working in its fooled versed in a way perhaps hadn't been able to be showing before. Well, I was incredibly lucky to come across Abraham at the time I did. It was very fortunate as I'd I'd actually donate. Work to the Tate myself by were artists, could Leonardo drew an African American artists. And as part of that, then led on to me taking the the take raters Francis Morris to the family, three times in Belgium, and one of those journeys. I remember asking Francis Morris who she was most excited about coming out what show. And she said it prohi- Elsa, and she showed me on her ipad and I was just immediately transfixed and to be on it. So he was way out of my league, but I went to his show and I was going to be introduced to him and you know, she said you should meet him. I think you would would get on a lot. And so I went along and it was it was packed. It was very exciting and I took it all in and went up to him and introduce myself. And he just said, God, bless you. Thank you very much and I walked away and I thought. What a sweet man. And two weeks later, I got a call from his wife saying l. Veira who is the tainted suggested that you know, she thought I was a good person for them to to meet with, and it was incredibly kind of today that because actually we, we hit perfectly and an actually got one of the most rewarding relationship. So you can have an artist and the entire family really of sort of trust, but also excitement. But also we both consider. I mean, it's very in order to me to say that he also does with us, but. It was the most amazing opportunity to have this hero of African this twentieth century modernist genius who for cermony years would not like selling his. I go into that later, but he a lot of his work appears to him later on after his done it. So it's like a stream of consciousness. So he, he was notorious for not letting his wife in studio for twenty years. And for keeping many of his most important works all up until the point which probably relates to what we're going to talk about today that he, he had the Tate show first African artists of of African birth to have a retrospective, but to be able to that moment of recognition, and he just before and Doha as well really made until late now it was worth selling his work. So that was first foray, and I was incredibly lucky and and continue. Be incredibly lucky. His one of those people want in one in a million where you really feel like his no, any warm and approachable, but he's he's a, he's a hero of their history and indeed such a hero that there's this tell us manic presence right now the museum of modern art in New York. Can you tell us more about that? Absolutely. Well, when Trump came into power, the lot of the museums in the cultural world in in America made a protest by hanging works by people who would not now be allowed into that country or who would find it difficult. So it just by Abraham, having been invited on so many cases to go since that time he hasn't because he's not willing to be investigated interrogated over over the age of eighty eight and it's America's loss really. But what was wonderful about member hooping incredible support to him. In fact, they just bought his masterpiece. Very recently just published a book on. His prison diary. But at the moment, his hanging has done for last two years in a room full of Picasso's, including lemons l. Davin probably the most famous painting in the world with his painting the mosque. And that was bought in nineteen sixty five when he met Alfred bar for the first time and has been pretty much not on display for most of the time since it was in it was in a one show for sure. In the sixties, but it was just fantastic. Brahim joke. He should write to Donald Trump and say, thank you so much for for highlighting me. But anyway, yes, so that's that's wonderful. For me, it's a thing of great pride, his his, hanging MoMA, his hanging in the Tate. He was next to a three dances for several years now has been relying in another room Wilfredo Lam and greats the Guggenheim Abby. Debbie have also hanging one of his very important sixties works very rare. One in in the Louvre is part of the Guggenheim collection and it's hanging within the loop. So basically his incredibly well represented in museums, round the world, and that is shown in in the in the cells that we make his over half of the paintings that we sell to museums, which has been still, you know, it's an incredible record, really. And this year we're probably still several million pounds worth of his two two mediums around the world. So so you can see very visibly something which we've been told he's happening that museums are expanding them definition of modernism. And then Abraham is now very much part of a core canon of international modernists. Absolutely. As I understand it. And as she is, you know, several curator's from the tater initially explained to me very patiently kindly the, you know, we have a very eurocentric in America Centric sense of modernism and have done, you know, in. Collecting prices museums for very long time and the that intelligent curator's trying to address this balance by bringing people from the periphery which has seen this actually where lot of the change within modernism has been instigated much into the into limelight and and giving us a more whole view of momentum. So it's for for us. It's for Abraham, his, his a sort of perfect example of this because being Sydney's his both African and Arabic, he has a jewel identity and therefore uphills across many cultures, and many people can understand when find a way into the western modernism or into Arabic African modernism through him because he, he's not. He has an operating within a vacuum. You know, he came to London wanted scholarship. He went to the Slade. He visited the British Museum. A lot of calligraphic works. He saw when he was a young man at the British Museum, and then he wanted to work. Ella grant to to New York, and he met semi fabulous people from Africa bath Ritter the interesting sort of revolutionary artists of a time, and then he traveled through South America, his his his so so well traveled and also his his PanAmerican pan African in his. You know, he was there right at the beginning in nineteen sixty one with Bari artists and writers club and his was the first Yuli barracks addition of his drawings. Is that sense of expanding modernisers reflected in private collecting? Do you think? I think so. But like a lot of the world, a lot of people follow whether they're introduced by the museums or by people who are taste makers or people who they trust. And so really for me, the. You know, had had a treasure trove with with him and as able to very calmly, think about how his presented and thinking, you know about how each different body of work could be best presented for people to understand the whole because you know going to his take show is fantastic experience, but you're almost overwhelmed because so many different style seemingly and it's anyway once you get to know his, what that you see all the threads that go in between it very much linked to the manners as as a person. And it tends to be the more sophisticated collectors who are taking that view of what is important in history. So it's not it's not a sort of speculative. Hell really, very much by the fact that it's so many museums by and the work is so rare. Toby, thank you very much. Thank you very much. The exhibition, he's will. We teach town to fly Ebrahim Elsa LA. He in black and white is the Vajgl gallery into the twenty-six Tober and you can see Abraham l. Salah. He's tree sculpture in the courtyard of Somerset house at the one fifty, four fair. We're back with more interviews of this. The Taiwanese Moster Richard Lynn is one of the leading artists of the twentieth century revered in his native country and across Asia, but says, bombs, global head of post war and contemporary art row Taylor Lynch should be better known in Europe as lived and worked in the UK for many years. Retrospective exhibition at Bonhams Nuba street from Tuesday. The seconds of the twelfth about Tober aims to put that right as with a helping us as victims family, the exhibition which blade selected works from the artists state spans the artist's career and includes never before seen in public. He can find out more at bombs dot com. Welcome back. The British gone, I not is Larry at temple is presenting one of the special projects at this one fifty, four fair. He joins me on the line now. So Larry tell me made a new project for one fifty four. And it seems to me that it's consistent with a lot of your work in the sense that eases the personal to address, much broader themes. Tell me more about it. Absolutely. So the the special project is no place like home and and that's been supported by my gotta represent me a copy field London, and an essentially we had compensations around kind of bringing together various elements of more crisis that consider against ideas around home, a sense of belonging richness. And I guess the question of of the other and relevance of that. Eden, since that I so we, you know, we. Considered a range of different pieces. I've crates over the years, including video work, I guess, kind of sculptural components of of work when photography and fruit at that arrange your pieces including the series, which is very, is very much Craciun of the arrives very much from Mike spirits of of seeing golly walk type culture for everyday products kid. So in my case, the Robertson's golliwog on yet jump draws. I soar as a as a kid at the breakfast stable something that my mom couldn't quite relate and explain to me having come from Ghana, and so that there's a lot of this kind of, I guess, t- constructing of these ideas that kind of connects to sits racism that are really still kind of, you know, who fabricate society too. So you know the work or should I say the projects that we've we on has very much kind of against the mastic Phil, but then a very kind of outward-looking she'll to sign time of of, you know what? Why dense Eka main within the dice score. Does not fair feel like a kind of rich territory to kind of do that because it's a place where all tea sold and there's a sort of. Disconnect if you like between a lot of kind of creative practices in the idea of of a salable object or a commercial exchange is, is that part of the reason that you're presenting. Seems to me to be a non-saleable. Really, really good question and I have to admit to, you know, I've my of not really add representation before. So you know my relationship with with London's is very though it's been going very well by fall. And so I think, yes, you know, to be to be presenting work in the premise of of of of an option is new situation for mayo, Sean across many sorts spaces. You know, I think a lot of that is in a way is kind of left to, you know the gallery to kind of handle in some sending. You know, I just produce what it is that I'm on responding to add, you know, I, I never really produced any kind of thing. How how someone going to bite out all might buy it later on. I really create the web that I do to kind of compensation more than anything. And you know, of course, it's the same time. It's fortunate that there is interesting since being with with field loss December somewhat consoled, which is which is great because that helps my family. But no, the the, the the ideas come first and anything else stop follows is bonus. That being said, I'm not pundits saying, you know, I do. I do without unconsidering, you know money. It's that that always has to be a big deal for me wherever project is restaurant, I'm interested in the way that you use all kinds because you'll the archives that you'll using multiple your during all sorts of material again, personal, but but also much more widely relating to African coach and also to British coacher. Can you explain how you go about your research? Absolutely. No. And I think that you know, look, those those those points rates very relevant. Now I come from a working class background. I grew up in best green and and of course in the area grew up in garbage. Music was a really big thing. And of course, grime music lights run its wealth. So you know, surrounded by friends who are like making beats and some, for example, in people who collecting vinyls and talk with that my own cool spilling b. j. used, let's and bring vinyls over from from Ghana Amum Volva when travelled out from from honor and seven seats. So kind of inherited some of my parents highlight election an highlight music is sound that it predates jazz and even afrobeat so effort. He knows that the sound in lots of Aleksey Taylor and so on was created by combining elements of highlight with jazz. So. So the for me, the archive is something that in a way is kind of partially, you know, an inherited kind of situation. You know, I'm a massive like video game fan as well. So I. Eric garner Easter eggs issue will in some of the work stike crate that have gestures Woodson videogames, verts other pacman or Mets with solid that thing. So I'm really interested in against the insurrections I've had and then again, conversations on having. So in a lot, I'll make video works as well. So when I'm when I'm working on research for like scripts monologues out to people that I know have even similar experiences or quite different experiences in relation to some of the feelings of generates myself just to conduct, I guess a as much of a nuance con about lupus as possible. I recently interviewed Godfrey Donkoh another British gun. I noticed who said he a sense of liberation through at she working in Akra and and going to explore themes relating to post colonialism overridden gone. Have you have you? Likewise, my journeys to going and seeing the potential for new ways of working new themes in the work? Yes. So a personal haven't traveled in in in years. But years ago, I went where I had traveled on younger, I kind of came across these Christian stock on almost propaganda lock hostess, which actually a utilize an artwork. We're getting the installation that I'll have the Ofek who the highly cloud of. So what would you have? Basically, these arranged trick images that are mass within a post that they have quotes that kind of grammatically incorrect tightened from the bible and so on, and you have images of of the the white Christ. It were, which I've then kind of maybe the defaced covered with cloud vice Mozi. That that that to me at the moments, probably the work that where where I've most writ recon Asli taken from objects within the in Ghana. And yeah, I think there's definitely kind of being able to have at that conversation that reaches into, you know where where I come from. So in the fills, if goes empowering fills of relevant issues time they and you know, just really, I think more than anything. It just goes like the right thing to be to being like. Of course, there is my growing up in London, you know, learn certain colloquialisms in some from Cottigny slang today, kind of talking within a specific context where you know using these crazy so exclusive, they pushed me to the periphery. So yeah, to be able to have that that connection of reaching into in the aspects of of my own heritage be quite historical. Quite prison is quite a is a powerful thing. You know that that's helped me to create works like the can African flag for Trump alliance, which you know showed on some of the of some house lost when one four was on. And then also, you know, currently within the free Skoko as well. So them. Yeah, you know. I think what it does what want doing in the end is having a conversation becomes a bit more universal if you will. Larry, thank you very much. No problem. Thank you. Women on airplanes show exploring women's largely unacknowledged role in pan-africanism the social political movements that led to post colonial nation states in Africa is at the showroom from the third of Tober to the twenty th January next year. Now, next week bones have its lightest Africa now, auction of modern and contemporary African art. It was the first auction of its kind launching into thousand nine just pep yet. Bonham's director of modern contemporary cannot, and he joins me now Joe's Bonham's was the first auction house to have dedicated sale of contemporary African. What precipitated that development. It was really out of two things. One was the perceived amount and fattened tested the mock. You Dennis Neth and Monza, but we pretty sure that was a demand for this work. The second thing was the the amount of goodwill. There was an obviously, you need both sides. You need to have works. You can sell, and people wanted to buy those works said is a bit of both. But until we she tipped all types in the market totters the market we, we had no clue as to whether it was going to be successful, not I'm. We did start these sales almost ten years ago. And at that time I will say the market was very different. It was the demand was not strong, and certainly there is no market as there is now. I mean, we didn't send a cattle to. I mean, they were platters or anything like that. Sunny thera- collectors. They hadn't coalesced into a group that we could send Catholics to manage in the way that we can now say it was a very different market, but it was it was the fact. That we did think that that was going to be a strong market for this work, and there's some very good workout. Can you tell me who you will sending? I mean, not exact people oversea. What type of people you are now sending catalogs to? Who are the collectors for African, okay. Say the very varied. As with every collecting category we have constituency is in Africa, and we have a constitution BAAs in Europe and in North America, and those probably the three main collecting areas. And we also have a large number. It's Titians that are looking to get into the market. It is certainly, as I said of fashion market the moment. So no, it's something that is the usual various spread. I mean, obviously each area tends to focus on different things. I will say that the collectors in North America tend to be more interested in the more contemporary to the scale. The the BAAs in Africa. Tend to more interested in what are called the modern artists, but no, we, we send them all around the globe. Now, one of the things that institutions like tight of done is threat to sort of reconstruct modernism from within a white by introducing modernism 's from across the world into what was very narrow collection of European and North American. Essentially you seeing in collected as well. Do you sense there is such a retrospective or I think you're right there is a certain amount of so back filling getting on in people who've collected modern arts or modernism in which have a market. They are active at North America or French art will British, and they're seeing very good examples coming from Africa, which obviously were with and they're acquiring those. But as you say, it's more interested in modernism than perhaps the engine African, but they suddenly see a parallel in the movements in both by areas oversee with Africa being such an enormous continent is very, it's very. Dangerous in a way to about something being an African trend. But for instance, all the collectors emerging from the same places that the autism urging from. Are you getting a real disparity that there is a little bit spotty. And as you say, it's very difficult to generalize in Africa, fifty four countries, but throw us. I mean, I'll just tackle that one head on because we do get occasional criticism for collecting Africa together. Like that. I mean for us, it's nothing more than allowing our collectors tonight, which cattle pull the shelf. If they all collecting work bit from Nigeria, Ghana Kenya, Mozambique, they have to know where come to get it. And certainly that's why putting them in Africa. Now sales allows them to do that. You ask whether the actors and the art come from the same countries or regions? No, there is quite a bit of cross-border collecting within Africa and obviously from outside. I mean, you have a lot of Bosnia. One of the strongest markets is JIRA and that they are not solely focused on Niger. Now they are the buys, the abide works from Ghana from west Africa, and you have buys in the states and that buying across Africa, they remind too much whether Sipho Mozambique Niger, it's the quality of the work, the matters. But now I think I think there is all the a degree or certain number collectors that will earn you click work from that particular country, but they're just as many that they're both of them. You mentioned that Setton collectors are very interesting in more contemporary work, how contemporary we talking. Because for instance, in Documenta in the most recent documentary castle, that was a lot of. A lot of work that was very much exploring kind of post object. I think they'd call in kind of language is the kind of that you will selling in a way more conservative or traditional informat at least I would. Yes. I mean, I think probably right. I think that generally an, it's awfully generalize, but I'm going to generally Africa tends to have a more conservative outlook both collectors and for for some all of some of the artists and one looks at the works that the that was selling. They are certainly, I think more conservative in the way that produced because we therefore put them in all sales because we know we can sell them. Our job is to sell the work snipe point putting in a wonderful piece that might be incredibly experimental von God. If we're not gonna, be able to sell it. And that's the crucial thing. I mean where that sell the pieces and we have to. React to the market imitates in the market. And I would say that suddenly the buys from Africa do have the collectors in Africa, do have a more conservative taste the buys from the rest of the world, I would say is not much different from general contemporary BAAs but no, I think I think it's not a on generalization drawer. Is there an we've heard a lot of bounce am cross collecting in the context for instance, of freeze and freeze monsters that there are people buying historic work and contemporary. What desens- there are people buying across African culture across generation centuries in the field of African cultural objects. Can you can generalize? I think they're all they're all people, but how many not are huge amounts. I mean, I think you have collectors of tribal art, ethnographic art, and there are one or two who will let contemporary African art as well. But if you to send the catalog to the whole list of tribal collectors, unfair, you wouldn't get a huge response because there's not many of them that are doing that as always want to. And it's very nice to have those people on board and how those people participating in the auctions. But in regard to contemporary art, you've always got huge swathe of contemporary collectors in North America and yes for us in some ways, the through the dream is to convert in a, let's say, ten percent of those into adding piece of contemporary off Mafra into that collections. And that would be a wonderful thing. So we are looking to. Try to have that crossover. It's still, I wouldn't say happening as strongly all. There's not as many sectors we would like. But you've got to keep trying in the Africa now, auctions de reflect the diaspora because there's a lot of connections being made between African artists and those with African backgrounds living in the west is something you can reflect in in the Africa now projects. Yes. I mean, we do include works from not all, but a few of the artists in the dice. I mean, again, I try not to get too hung up about all the African all their nought all they British. I mean, look at someone, Idaho Inca, Chonburi. I mean, he's a, he's a British Paul Paulo, he's British. And when he's referred to in his catalogue entries, he's British Essel say British-born when every was thought he is also very strongly Nigerian. And I think he would probably be. Equally ended to be told he's not Nigerian. So we tend to include work by artists that we think the collectors that are looking at category interested in says, more focusing on the collectors behalves the autism south. Notice that off from this for that we don't include, is there a sense in which the fact that there's a growing collector base for African is having a positive effect on the scenes in Africa artists communities? Yeah, I think it is. And I think it's it's a very positive thing for two or three reasons. I mean, certainly one of them is for the collectors and the galleries in Africa because they cannot say the Gallo is Sunday say to that does look, this doesn't only have a value in Nigeria or have a value in Kenya. You could take this to London and sell it, and it has a value there which is quite a powerful message, a quite powerful telling selling. Tool for them. I would also say for the artists it, it's great to feel that they can sell their work in London. Now, we were talking earlier about the fact whether we she sell directly from autism and we don't. We, the auctions tend to be a place where you sell work from the secondary market. I the prime Alcatraz you know, someone's bolts on the gallery, and then the second Mark is when they moved on and that largely as what we do, but certainly there are one or two artists that are selling, what am I call primary work on the secondary market and for them, it's very useful to have that opportunity as well as the volume of work is the price of the work shifting upwards? Yes, it is. I would say not as fast as a lot of people would like in every once things all works, fetching twenty thirty fifty thousand pounds. There is an awful lot of work still being sold on the tenth. Thousand pounds and probably offload work under five thousand pounds. And that is in a way one of the things that's holding the market back. I think because for some lectures, they're very used to seeing works appreciating a foster rate and said, they look at the African mock and say, well, it's while, I mean, this works three ground Woodley worth in five years, whereas grandma's not doing much for me. So. But in a way, I think that's not a bad thing because we means we hopefully have the the people who come to speculate. I mean, there are and the habby markets that have been ready ruined by speculators people coming in solely to acquire work for a year eighteen months and push back on the market. And that's not enormously healthy. It's much better to people collecting work for the longer term to hold for ten fifteen years. So the lack of the very strong growth in some ways is a good thing is most ability to the market. But no. I mean, I think the highest price for. A piece of Monica, temporary African art is we sold of work by Bennie moment for one point two million this year, which was wonderful. I mean, is great to have that was when is one. I mean it would be love it happen again, but I think that's realistic and say it was a most piece. One of his best works. It does help the market, but we need more of those and weedy moldy spikes. So tell us about a couple of highlights in the Africa. Now this year, what we got a very strong sale this year. And I think the one or two strong areas, we've got a a wonderful of Ghanaian Monica, contemporary at from the collection of Seth day, who as wealthy business in Ghana. And it's really interesting that because it's the first time single owner collection of gun has comes from Archimedes sold in on the international market. So I think that's gonna get well. You can ever be sure, but you'll certainly hateful and I think that's going to get well, we've got the usual collection of works by the Nigerian artists. Ben in woo Hoo is very much the lodestar. I mean, he is leading that markets. And as I mentioned earlier, we sold a picture by him for over a million pounds this year. And then I think one of the works that I'm. Kina stone is actually on the front cover. It's by Malia, nautical cannot, and it's a wonderful hanging tapestry, really exquisite, golden colors. And I think it's a beautiful thing. It's don't expensive. Send about forty thousand pounds, but no, we've got a great sale on on very confidence going to do well, Charles, thank you very much. Thank you. You can now auction takes place bombs in London on the fourth of toba, and that's it for this week. Thanks to our guests and listening do subscribe to the podcast if you don't already and follow us on Twitter at ten audio, Facebook at the newspaper, an Instagram at the newspaper dot official next week. It's a freeze week special, including interview with the artist, Dora south Saito among much else. See them. The podcast is brought to you in association with Bonhams find what defines you bones dot com.

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Ralph Rugoff on his Venice Biennale concept. Plus, Bernar Venet and Berlin Gallery Weekend

The Art Newspaper Weekly

47:50 min | 1 year ago

Ralph Rugoff on his Venice Biennale concept. Plus, Bernar Venet and Berlin Gallery Weekend

"Yeah. These people put Costes brought to you in association with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bombs dot com. Hello. It's the art newspaper poke cost. I'm Ben Luke this week. We focus on two big art of ants in Europe last weekend was Berlin gallery weekend. Ozlem Hamid spiked the event curator mica crews and the artists burnout Vinay who show opened at Blaine seven as part of the event. But first this week, the Venice Biennale early next week is the previ- week of the art world's biggest event when pretty much the entire contemporary. Well, descends on Venice for a few days. The heart of the Biennale is, of course, the main exhibition held in the old Italian pavilion in the Joe Dini. And the once mighty former shipyard for the Republic of Venice, the us Nollie, the autistic director this year Israel frugal f-, the director of London's Hayward gallery, and he's chosen Seventy-nine artists freeze exhibition which he's titled may you live in interesting times. We'll be reporting from the Bialy in a special podcast next week. But ahead of is it I spoke to the Italian cultural institute in London just after giving a press conference on the being Ali. And as he was putting the finishing touches to the show. Ralph. Let's begin to hear about the title. When did it come to you? And what's it significance? You know, I can't even remember anymore when the title came to me, but it's I think what attracted me was one. I was thinking a lot about some of them are dreadful things happening politically in the last two or three years and trying to think of a way not to create a an exhibition that would reflect an depressing way on the times, we live in and this phrase, which dense child pop to mind in this. May you live in interesting times, it seems to be kind of open ended in what am I mean? You know, it's an invitation or an a might be a way to frame an exhibition which hopefully is reflecting on this time. But to offer the possibility that you might find perspective of living in this time where you could see this. As an interesting time rather than a dangerous hair-raising horrific period of human history. Then the fact that this was also a piece of fake news as it were that's been recycled over and over again over the past hundred years at this was said to be an ancient Chinese curse. Even though it never was and everyone from prewar politicians in the UK to Hillary Rodham Clinton from Albert k moot. Arthur C Clarke have used this phrase talking about as an ancient Chinese curse. So the fact that we now live in a world where you can go online and find out in two minutes to never wasn't ancient Chinese curse. I think is brings up some very interesting issues that seem relevant to this time. So the question is to what extent all the artists directly engaging in this notion of fake news in this idea of alternative facts, some artists aren't gauging that quite directly I think I don't want to say this exhibition about fake, news alternative facts. In fact, it's really an exhibition against the very idea that an exhibition might be about something any more than a work of art might be about this or that it's much more trying to present a strong sense of the complexity of works of art, which generate many different kinds of sociation that you have to work out for yourself. That had this conversation with an audience, and which ultimately or posing questions, and that I hope, you know, for me that's the goal of this exhibition said, it leaves people with some interesting questions that they can carry on to their experience afterwards. I mean, this is very much an exhibition dedicated to the idea that the most important thing that happens doesn't happen inside the gallery. It's what visitors do without experience after they leave. I suppose innovative idea is this idea of separating the Nala and the central pavilion in the Dini into to set for exhibitions. Why did you do that? For for two reasons. One was deco this idea of this kind of social division that seems to have been exacerbated in our world where we have these very polarized societies in the UK, obviously. We have this division of Brexit with in a way to different countries. Existing side by side seemingly living in parallel information landscapes, but also it was a way really to call attention to the multiplicity of artistic practice. That interesting artists work in different ways. They work straddles different categories in different ways. And to great a sense that you're only seen part of a bigger picture when you come to an exhibition like this. And really just shine a light on this aspect of art. It's way dwells ambiguity the way it. Embraces contradiction at a moment when our information landscape seems to be growing ever narrower. And I think this is really important point. Because. We live in a time. When the art media is prone to pigeon hole artists to reduce practice to certain to almost kind of sound bite. And what you're saying here is actually artist actually have a license to go in any kind of direction. They want on here are for each artist. You're showing to exempt two ways of working absolutely that each one of those ways is also completely multiple. And in a way, if you looked at a coastal enough kind of define any pigeonhole that we might normally try to squeeze it into. And. Yeah. They're kind of countless examples of how that works in the exhibition. I think that's the kind of work. That's always excited me. And I think if I have a criteria for quality in in terms of Sesing works of art. It's the levels of residents that a work of art can generate in terms of. Sending you off on this journey where you're kind of following one slippage of meaning to another to another to another, and it doesn't it? And that is kind of sublime experience tell us about the experience of of working with the artists because it's I think it's really important again that you are working exclusively with living artists in the last been on for instance, they were a lot of dead artists. I'd like to know why chose not to include artists from the past Documenta also feature dead artist. And I think it's become a curatorial fashion to kind of try to recuperate artists hoop in forgotten or never got the attention. They deserved which to me is a great museum project you about introducing people into the cannon who should be there aren't there. I love the disposability. And I know I'll get in trouble for using this word of the BS that it's something that happens every two years. It's you know, it's got a short fuse on it. It something that can address this moment rather than having to address who deserves to be in the history books. And it was you know, also just for me. I mean as a cure curator, you have a lot more control when you're dealing with dead artists, obviously. But it was a lot more interesting for me to be a dialogue with the artist. I was working with and all of them were incredibly excited about this idea of having. Opportunities to show two types of work. And of course, we might expect that but. Nobody was complaining about it. And I think I think people actually really didn't the get behind that idea. In the presentation, you made a point of of pointing to the fact that there are lots of painters in the exhibition and to how painting is kind of zombie that keeps coming back from its reported death. Tell us more about one what you perceive as what keeps it. Vital. And what is keeping, you know, particularly relating to this show. But also, you know, what is what is that zombie quality? Well, I think it's interesting when you get a medium that starts to seem quasi obsolete. And it in a way becomes a clinic slow technology, but technology will paintings always been more or less. A slower way of processing information say than photographic technologies digital technologies in terms of making images, let's leave sculpture out of this for the time being and I think increasing the painting has become a place where artists reflect on. The kind of status of image traffic in the world at large whether that is happening online or on television or Hollywood through news images. Even if an artist is making a self portrait. It's always influence by these other media. And I think they're also commenting on the way images today are so heavily mediated and up circulated and all kinds of different platforms that we don't have a simple singer relationship to image anymore. And that's an interesting thing for a unique object like a painting to explore it gives you it's distanced enough from this phenomenon by status that allows you look at that reality, I think with the necessary well distance in your text about the exhibition. You write about about four grounding playfulness the wordplay from this is not something we can use. About very many recent being ALI'S out. I mean, Venice Biennale he's I mean by annuals. What what do you mean by playfulness? Well, you know, I'm very interested in art that entertains me, I mean, you know, I don't think entertainment is a bad word. I think we should let it be co opted completely by commercial corporate produce media television. Hollywood whatever I like the word entertained because it's we also entertain ideas and. I think it's one of the powerful things that are can do is put the cast a spell on you. You know, it gets you engaged involved. And do that it's playing with you in some way, it's going to be able to play with your responses. And get you interested in it. And because I really a strong believer in the idea that interesting aren't works as a conversation exchange with viewer that has to be a form of play. I think talk a lot about this idea art embracing contradiction. And I think the idea that you can be Cillian serious. You can make a work of art that sad and funny at the same time that might be beautiful and ugly at the same time. These are things to me that make interesting works of art because you can't resolve them in any facile way. You can't pigeonhole them your brain keeps trying to work out. What is that relationship between these seemingly incompatible qualities in the feelings that are associated with them? So playful doesn't have to mean funny or light. Sometimes things are seriously playful that makes me think oh vs is the. Mike Kelly who are now it's been an artist of tremendous importance to your worldview, and your creating is Mike Kelly in your thoughts as a curator almost perennially. Mike definitely is really Mike was the person who sent me up to curate the first show ever curated. So Mike had this phrase negative joy for talking about what he thought was the social function of art that it should provide both critical insight, but also pleasure. And to me too, many exhibitions seem to forget the second part of this idea. And I think it unnerves people the idea that you might make an artwork about something. That's a very depressing reality. But somehow that work also is going to provide you with pleasure, right? That freaks us out from a moral point of view. How can we possibly take pleasure open? Their people are suffering. And yet this is where art is different from journalism. And there's a really great piece in the show by Lawrence Bahamdan walled on wall. And. One of the things that utilizes some research that he was initially asked to do, by Amnesty International to interview, some survivors of notorious prison in Syria that very few people actually ever survive. And he, you know carried out this research, he interviewed people Amnesty International used it as part of paper, they produced Benny found himself with a lot of information that he'd come up with that he said newspapers weren't interested in it wasn't appropriate for what amnesty was doing. But he founded fascinating material. And he said that art really was the only form in which this kind of information. Could find a form that would allow them to ask questions that also had to do with questions about things like the nature of evidence? As well. As the specific facts of these cases that he was looking at. And so I like this idea that there's information in the world which won't fit into these other formats, which are much more black and white, but that are because of its capacity for accommodating ambiguity and allowing a reflection to occur around. The way some somethings articulated was the home for this material. So there's an interesting, you know. Back and forth. I think between artists who are making more about the things in the real world. But who's worked take specific forms that assert how art is different from the texture of facts. And the way journalism reports. Another factor, which tells me that your real exhibition mica is the thought about the journey through the Sinali, which as you said in the press conference that it can't fill but of March of death when it's just this endless long passage. You're going to break it up, but not through with heavy walls. But with you're talking about see through materials. Tell me about that speech. Because again that seems to me to relate to the pleasure of seeing an exhibition took about pleasure Venice is an exhausting experience. You seem very conscious of. Though, I I mean, I'm funny person to be curious to be analogous. I generally find them to be very difficult experiences. As a as a visitor. I think I've always been fairly sensitive to the impact that architecture has on artworks and the idea that art works are actually very sensitive to the ways they're installed, and what's around them and working at the Hayward for the last twelve years is increased this appreciation for the impact. Architecture has in Venice couldn't have two more different bases in the classical building from the late nineteenth century and a former rope making factory that they back to the fourteenth century. They already give every Venice Biennale a split personality send. So it seemed better to address this consciously than not I mean, the arsenal is this long three hundred meter narrow rectangle feels a bit light adjusted passage and you enter one end and your spat at the other and I wanted to break up that journey. I mean, usually because there are columns rows of columns that two of them that run all the length of this three hundred meters. Typically, people build walls running the length of the building. And to me that ends up feeling a bit too close to an art fair where you're looking at you can look down this long corridor on this art on either side, and you know, it's it's you can see too much at once. So the way we've divided up is with many sections that bisect this long rectangular space horizontally, and it'll be a bit more of a labyrinth. I'm hoping that doesn't prove to be just as teen it might. But I think at least that allow you to focus better when you're looking at a work of art. You don't have. Fifteen other art works in the background if talked about textual references cornerstones. So you talked about a text by Brunello to- Utah to attacks by 'em Beto echo. I'm wondering about article stones to Kelly as a kind of general Kuna Stein, you light feel work whether exhibitions past the you you have had in mind when thinking about this one. I mean, a funny way when you when you are asked to do this thing Venice being out you do end up reflecting on all the being house you've been to. And it did made me think a lot about Francesco Bottomley's being now and even remember the exact date anymore, but the two thousand three. Where he had nine co curator's. They each coke each curated a separate section. And I remember at the time thinking, it was completely incoherent and didn't add up to anything. But in retrospect, I think I find it more interesting because one it really addressed the fact that g one big exhibition is almost too large to take it right in. How do you make a coherent connection between one hundred or hundred fifty different artists? Some of the smaller exhibitions that were part of that one being now were were really successful. And we're really interested. And in a way, I think that was the most radical experiments. In the history. So perhaps that was in the back of my mind. Okay. We'll row. Thank you so much for talking to us. All right. Thank you been. May you live in interesting times, most of any speed Nali events take place between the eleventh of may and the twenty fourth of November as I said next week's cost will be coming to you from Venice, and you can read all about being early in a special report in the printing of the newspaper and online at the newspaper. Come we'll be back and heading for Berlin. After this. The great twentieth. Century Italians Goto Marino Marini was in his mid thirties. When in nine hundred thirty eight he began to explore the thing before and rider. It was to prove a career defining moon. Initially rooted in the rich western tradition of a question. Marines figures became more stylized and abstract over time it reflected the artist's own darkening mood of anguish, especially in the postal years of social and political instability in studio miracle of Bonham's impressionist. Mom, not Sal in New York in may was conceived in the early nineteen fifties. And it's invested with a new dynamism and emotionally intensity as bombs head of impressionist Manatt in America. Kate in Pickens explained the depiction of a rider thrown backward on the fooling horse, exemplifies not. I mean, the fragility of human life, but also Marini sense of impending catastrophe to find out more. Visit bums dot com. Welcome back. Now Burlington new gallery weekend return for its fifteenth tuition loss weekend with forty five galleries across the German capital. Opening new shows head of its loans last week across social media campaign could soup do jaw headed by the artist Candice Bright's accused the events of gross gender imbalance within the exhibitions promoted by its program. Ozlem helmets to mica cruise director the weekend about the campaign, much, more and you hit that shortly. But first one of those forty five exhibitions that opened last we can't is it the Blaine seven gallery a new show by the French artist of the knee ostlund went to the gallery to to him. Thank you very much for joining us. You'll career his senior move through intense dramatical exact formulas you've worked with relief in the past. And then reliefs have kind of evolved into sculpture is kind of accurate s- brief precis of how the direction your careers meeting all have things gone, more chaotically. I have a way to work, which is like this. You know, I can I do something like ice started to leave see nineteen sixty free. Yes. And then I stopped Wendy do little bit of sculpture of going to painting, photography or whatever. Been one day. I have a new idea about relief. And I just go back. And if I think that it's interesting enough just jump on it, and I do it of more inva- laster. Let's say ten years ago of even fifteen I started to develop relief Salat by doing indeterminate areas. You know, some very heavy reliefs which. About some of them are like five six don's invents what they called the grids. They are very dynamic gesture all. Pieces cut on steel plates of the also wait a lot of wait a lot. And when I stopped going back to sculpture going back to the paintings and subtly. I had a new idea recently. I was just I remember was in my studio looking at a very early towing. But I made in nineteen sixty seven very much involved with scientific information. But I saw a line that was so simple. You know, like just a line. You know, nothing dynamic no spy hole. Nothing at all. And they fought g I will about doing that. And of course, two weeks later, I had about ten or twelve fifteen pieces on my wall six seven meters long. But I work what keeps bringing you back to that. I mean, he had this wonderful career spanning fifty years yet. You still seem to be very much committed an obsessed by these forms. What is it keeps motivating you to? Explore more to discover, more and experiment more. I'm obsessed by two things. One of them is that I'm convinced that I have not done enough. There is so much to create you know, very so much to do. And yes, you get to a certain point where you have a certain success and people think that you are doing well. Yes. Well, doing well Dominy are we to do? Well, and do we we don't want to compare ourselves to our friends? We just want to compare ourselves to Picasso the another one to do. Yes. But you see I'm not doing to make money. I'm not doing to satisfy my needs to do art. I'm doing because I hope that one day in the future people. We look at my work and say my God, look what he did in those days. You know, it has to become something could Scholley determinant, otherwise it's not worth doing up. Then you just say this to you. You know that season one day say that if I knew for sure that my work will never be at blue, I will stop instantly. And I feel the same. The the goal is not to be famous because you have the Lou. But no, no, no the goal is to do something which is really which is meaningful which is really going to be determinant for the field of stowing to feel that you will reach a plateau point where you've you think I've achieved all I can do with this form with this approach and might want to wish to do something else. I stop you either way. I haven't done. I haven't done anything. I haven't done anything. There is so much. They can do. And honestly, a very less pieces that doing if you come to suffer France at the foundation, and you see my last phone mini collapse. We are now making sculptures, which are not compelled by me, you know. I don't improve is in control. No, I just let nature Coty mega work itself. And and if you see that piece you will see that it's better than anything. I did before and really intend to keep on going like this. Today. My lurk is, but you have such a financial means to do whatever I think it's only my imagination which is weak compared to possibly to do things. So so I have no excuse if I have a good idea for you have something which is worth doing. I have to do it and very so much. I will do it. Yeah. You mentioned is now you're fundation in south of France, which I believe opened five years ago. Yes. Uncle. How has experienced been few? It's a very rare thing to have I be able to show pretty much all your collection of work, which you've Clinton veers from many many industries friends, many many artists, we don't know as well. So wonderful mix of works and based around building which you renovated and created. How is that being for you as a working artist? It's also be the director of this foundation. And what is the ambition of the foundation? It's a big subject. The fifth thing is want is that I want to make a no match to artists who my new older than me like the minimalist mainly the Hobart Moe's count on the Flavian. Vir-? Don't adjourn solo it mainly also was people who were very nice to me, and they helped me to exhibit with them. While was very young. I was like twenty six years old and the held me to exhibit A doin calorie. Leo, Castelli Paulette Cooper. So it's. Way to make numerous to them. Another thing is that I don't understand what people do with the money when they start to make money. What do you do? Do you? Go into drugs in too late to women. Do you go into buying anything spending your money you go and play the casino myself? I think that I have a duty. I'm fortunately, my art is helping me to leave Hala Tivoli. Well, the extra money I should just bring it back to now on one side by making the pieces that I want to make about for me. But also buying up because it's the best thing you can do. I mean, how can you sell enough to work, but you love and end instead of that you get what some stuff which are going to be meaningless, you know. No, no. You want to do something with it? Now. That's one thing. The second is that we place in the south of France Louis in Libby. In in in the area. Is. Fortunately, extremely beautiful. The nature is amazing river waterfall in everything, but landscape is green eight soul. It's like unique, you know, and then this incredible collection. Yes, thanks to my friend to me. I mean, it's things to them because they are very nice to give me some good pices mutt. Of time. But also I exchange a lot with Larry bell Sola. We'd with many many of these already on this a lot over the years. Yes. Always on buying you strange since I was twenty two I've been collecting by exchanging with artist. But you see this is the most important thing. I want to say one day, I'm going to die apparently everybody up to everybody, you know? And and that day my kids. My two sons are going to end my wife are going to have to sell so much in order to pay for taxes. And I talked to my wife. I talked to my sons and said, look, you know, what how about giving everything to foundation it won't be to you. Doesn't beat on to me anymore. We give everything and like that that what I did will remain. It will be a to last you know, for long so ever. I mean, ideally doesn't exist. But it will be there. You will be able to enjoy it show it to your fan. It would be a story. And it's actually it's really thanks to you that we can do not things to me. Yes. I acquired all those things. But if you agree with me, you are the people that we are supposed to to to thank one more reason is that you see was born very poor in a family that was you have no idea, and because of that because of the fact that I've been leaving the society in a social context, but he'll be to develop myself to end up being artist. You know, having a good life meeting the right people at the high place toddling all under will acquiring those. I always it to society. So my goal is. To give back to society. I'm not going to leave the world with all those twelve oaks. No, it has to be given back to the people to weed belong. So this is what we do my kids under stand that my wife also. So we all agree. Absolutely. Do you still acquire art by younger artists emerging artists? Are there any particular that you are especially interested in and find particularly good and felt unity? I do not have an eye for the younger about this. Nope. As much as was very good in one thousand nine hundred seventy seventy one, you know, knowing that Flavian Judd, Andre in sixty eight I knew ready, you know, video early. It was because it was my family you see people will doing a very cold abstraction very close to what I had been doing. Also, they were better than me because we will doing it in a mall ethical way. But I found a way to go beyond all that. After that. These this was my family, and I understood that period, very very well and very quickly. So I knew exactly who to acquire as soon as I was getting some money, and they got some flav info one thousand dollars, and I'm talking about the the tube, which is from nineteen sixty three a very fifty made. You know, I'm talking about Dona Judd for thousand piece, which is five meters long. So I could because we were my friends we have the same interests, you know, movies, Walter Maria, all those people I mean, I was thinking also about about speeds on these were fans. So acquiring work was now I have to confess today. I'm totally blind. I do not understand. You know, who are the good artists? I just don't have the iphone it. And I remember talking with some very sophisticated artistry beat onto my generation, and they said to them. Okay. It's your it's your duty to work on that to understand to to end your web to appreciate and talk about it. What you think is it? We all asked with understand we have to be closed to a generation in order to completely understand. It's very difficult to keep on going. So Mike collection is purely the minimalist and conceptual a few exception. But we already been all they're like Obama is like MO mother who will of Hong still are, you know, and you have a chapel still by by years of that's awful story. One day. I was in studio is a very good fan for many many years. I met him. I met him when I have the New York in sixty six, but it took a long time before I have this kind of relationship. But one day I was in the studio, and I saw Sikhs Eugene leaves, you know, very much of the same type and fought Oma God, this is like. Doesn't look like that. But it reminds me of off go. Halbe making chapel we've that fabulous. Then I fought to expensive. And then after a while, I just say to Frank, you know, about give number I won't tell you. It's totally crazy for me. It was like beyond anything. And you looked at me Bill now come on. No, no, not not possible. Is it what he says? He added forty percent Ahmed God trust to merge. So. But he said, you know, what you do you take them bring them to the south of Cairns? You pay me when you can. And which is what I did. And at the end, it could still not pay in say, give me a piece, okay? Frank. Oh, yes. Been wonderful. Find lights with the weekend. Was there a moment that you to Kim? Joy anyone aspect that really make keys. I mean for me the best is always the gallery tour of yours Liamine. It's the nice part of my job is during a weekend. When I am supposed to visit all the Forty-five canneries, and I have a contacting around three days for this. So it's an very fast rhythm that. I do forty five shows. And I think every year it's so great that it's the shows are so diverse and you see new artists that I didn't know before. So well like Frida to on so year in four fight Lavin's courts. And it was a fantastic show of Yana Oilla that was really great. And then of Costas. Yep. Yeah. It was it's a it's a fantastic for the tation. And and then you see all the evergreens like Ryan Gan, you know, Danica CNA. And older tests. Most artists artists were even mentors for young artists. Like Thomas fire, baron avenue. And then and then when I really liked was a few discoveries. I made of artists that I didn't know before like the Korean artists babble have been that was almost like a retrospective. And also, do we? The plan also kind of respect retrospective of a Romanian artist whose practice I wasn't. I didn't know so well before that it's impacted the arts of Berlin. How do you think when you look back at the last five years of your involvement? How do you see the gutter weekend having worked? Well, it's I mean when I took over took over from the the galleries themselves who own it and organize that back then and then they sided it became too big. They need somebody to work on it. And we did we did several things in the last years. We worked very closely with galleries. We got an sponsors we having very closely I p program now. And so it's establishing itself more and more becoming much better visited every year, lots of people know it. But also the context of the galleries grow through shows like in Hong Kong, many of them. Now have Asian context they bring over together weekend. So the group of people coming rose, but we have all time fans. That's a lot of international collectors who love. It so much. They've been coming since the beginning. And so we have a very close fan base. That's coming every year and your but is becoming bigger and bigger every year. Also, not not only concerning us in the official program. But everything that's happening around us whole Berlin is participating and profiting from it when you say participating, obviously one of the features of gathering weekend is that it's a selection of make weekend. Yes. Every calorie is part of it. Do you feel as you evolve? It's this selection procedure curates procedure. However, you Mr. it is going to vote as well. Do you think that there's going to be more tuned tease? I'm thinking now, many of younger got ways who are coming into in this new generation of millennial dealers. How do you think are we can can evolve to me then aids? Well, we had taught I mean it's all about Berlin gallery. So obviously, I know them all personally, we talk a lot. We have not of roundtable to the galleries discussing our topics, and I'm visiting all the young reserves. Well, so I know them, and I'm employed conversations with a few of them if they want to join our weekend in the next years when is the right point to step in. So we don't have application process, which is also the fact that we have very small tractor. We don't have a budget or we don't ever committee and all the. Kind of things, but we are employed contact and we include get like young galleries almost every year. So it's it's a moving gallery list. Also this year there was five galleries that step down most of them only for one year six carries came back. Instead. So there's always a few generous that that whether there's a fluctuation. Because obviously it's over the last twelve months is last seen a couple of galleries reconfigure krona extreme. Seeing one online Rex. There are always challenges to gunnery scenes what you're in Berlin, New York. And I'm wondering how much how much attention to you. As gotta weakened paid to these fluctuations in these changes and kind of fold since your policies in something eating. Well, this happens. It's it's not our concern. Or do you feel? Well, we want to maybe offer more support or encouragement younger guttering. It's absolutely are concerned. I mean, get a weekend is a company owned by galleries. And it's a it's an event for from galleries fog Elleray's. It's an event that's non for profit. We are is to support the gallery scene and the local art market and not to money our south, so anything. So this is our biggest concern how the galleries how other smaller and the younger galleries involving what are their problems? And as I said, we have a lot of roundtable. She at this table with. Participating galleries. But also with young seeing how we can help them, for example, this year, we lower the participation fee from seven thousand five hundred to five thousand because some of the smaller galleries asked as to which in the consequence men that we didn't do a few things we invited guests but Email instead of cards and so on and, but but still we took we took care that has the same effect. And we're thinking a lot about these concerns. That's basically what we're most thinking about. How can we support? The the Brennan galleries and the galleries that closed in the last year. That's of course, a real big problem because most of them had fantastic program supported great artists. A lot of artists who don't really are not represented anymore. This is a real problem for the whole city. So as results of these concerns results the roundtable discussions you've been doing. Results initiatives to low with MRs right? How'd you see guttering we can looking forward to twenty twenty in? This regard is that any kind of concrete strategy in place. So anything that you are thinking about now, which could be lamented next year. Well, what we do is very simple. We try to make the best event for the galleries possible. Which means that we bring excellent people to Berlin that Bayat from them that maybe come back. We have very close contacts with them. We do a lot of PR for them. And that we have a second event September at Berlin. Where we again get in these people and get a weekend commercially, what solar successful for the participating galleries that this was already great support. Also, by the way for the not officially on the program. It's the most important weekend of the year. And I think that's the most important thing that we can do for the galleries. Absolutely. There's obviously been a lot of online. Noise about this vice I campaign, thank you have forty five dollars and out of those fifteen shake female artists as reduction of female artists on starts to think it's fair these -cations making against govern- weekend. Well, I think we have sixteen galleries, but that doesn't make such a such a difference that chill female artists in recent years. We always had almost fifty percent female artists, we were all mostly at forty percents or counted all the last years, it's a very extremely important discussion that slapped you I'm I'm totally aware of that. And and we are discussing lot of these things internally but ghetto weekend as an umbrella brand, and I'm inviting or we are inviting the galleries to participate, and then they send me the artist's name. So every year in December January. I count how many female artists coming in many meal are disa- coming in. And unfortunately this year we were at only thirty percent female artists, which is. A list of artists that's coming together by chance it's not curate to and I cannot really prescribe the galleries what to bring and they're all already asking the artists. Now if they want to join a weekend next year. So again, it will be a thing coming together totally by chance. But of course, we have an internal discussion. And we've all discussed this a lot last weekend. What we can do and how we can. Do something for this development. That is goes that we present more female artist next year. The certainly what I get from reading about this. That's Berlin has changed so much since we can begun. It's almost different city in many ways in terms of diversity of population. Demand. People coming into the city and Mike like these campaign is say they feel invents this doesn't address that. But you very point in the sense of it's an umbrella organization, you're merely reflecting what mcadams to you some sense way looking at a known history. This is just a snap decision. Absolutely. And I think if you analyze the list what I find really interesting is that the the old established artists mostly male and the young artists that present very interesting shows this year almost a female. So if you look at this list and. And then you see like Yana oil it at one's gotta find Fogel and and women like this. I think they're really. They're really coming on. And so I'm pretty sure that in five and ten or ten to ten years those lists will look totally different. Even if they're not creative. They're created. They look totally different anywhere. Every time. We read something like at Berlin along or the talk program. Of course, it's mostly female artists when the create something because we are totally aware of this discussion. And most of my friends have rematch is so I, you know, I'm I'm well taken care of this. But in the case of Garin weekend. It's it's not curated and we have to see what time does. And therefore, I think the discussion has been helpful and interesting, and it will I'm very sure influence in some way or the other also the decision of again rates for next year. Would you be open to inviting these people behind the campaign to maybe meets with you a dialogue discuss ways in which. That concerns could be addressed McComb text of the weekend. Well, I mean, I thought about different things that talk to a lot of female, but also may Artis friends of what can be done in the past days. They have been a lot of discussions. Maybe we start discussion. Brown's men could do something at the ad FAM. This is something I still have to think about the discussion on Facebook. I didn't really like so much because every time you participate in there. You don't have a chance, you know. It's for me. This is not a productive way of discussing this been so much polling on Facebook that I'm not really participating there. But of course, I'm always open for the inside this. And as I said, I'm discussing this with a lot of friends right now. It's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you. Same time today when you must be obsolete. So stick. I am. Ben of an as exhibition indeterminately is at Blain southern in Berlin until the twenty second of June. And that's it for this week. Please subscribe if you haven't already, and if you're enjoying the cost we'd be grateful if it gives a rating or of you on itunes because it helps us to find us. You can follow us on Twitter at tan audio and the newspaper is on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook Ecoles if you'd like to read more from the newspaper them one subscribe to our daily newsletter to keep in touch with all the latest developments in the art world. Visit the newspaper dot com and click on the newsletter link at the top right of the page. The newspaper podcast is produced by Judy housekeeper Amy dourson, and David Clack and David is also the editor. Thanks Ralph to Assulin, mica and Bana anti listening. Join us next week for of any special. But until then thanks for listening. The newspaper put cost to you in association with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more. Visit Burnham's dot com.

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Is the future of the art market online?

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:06:27 hr | 4 months ago

Is the future of the art market online?

"We cannot is brought to you in association with Christie's Christie's with leading auction since hundred sixty six private sales and eater and welcome to the weekend. Not I'm bending. This week would have been so good Giga Week. With a major auction of impressionist modern and contemporary of in New York. Of course they've been postponed. The architect is by not online instead. A An explosion of digital initiatives and online galleries or viewing rooms followed the cancellation of fairs and the closure of auction houses in galleries over recent months to the corona virus. So this week we're looking at the predations of going digital for the art market. Are People Buying Online? How effective of the online initiatives we talked to Scott Rayburn who writes on the art market for the New York Times newspaper and our art. Market Editors Anna Brady Carrigan take us through some of the initiatives including the experience of the viewing room for freeze New York. Which closes today Fifteenth May? Also this week immolated. Lonely work series exploring art behind closed doors in museums. Rebecca SORTA the president of the Royal Academy in London tells us about symmetry by leeann spill yet before that a reminder that you can read the newspaper anywhere any time with our iphone and IPAD APP. Visit the APP store search for the newspaper and then you can still the free app if you were a subscriber. All the content is available as part of your subscription. Now as I mentioned this week would have been one via markets busiest and reporters like Scott. Rayburn would ordinarily have been in bustling salesrooms in New York with the sound of clinking glasses. Frenzied bidding and flagging gavels. Ringing in there is but Scott like most of us is at home and instead exploring the online alternatives. I spoke to him about the markets rushed to digital what he thinks. Longterm implications of the crisis will be Scott. It's obvious that there is going to be a profound hit to the economy from this. But what hopes do you think the market has realistically pinned on Digital Pretty much all hopes at the moment without Live events the one life lying That they have the one means they have a generating income. But the problem is that for years. The market was way way behind the sectors of the global economy in terms of digital transformation digital sales Just give you one so. The headline figure lost year Online sales represented just nine percent of the estimated sixty four billion international law sales if you take the music industry at least eighty percent of music sales all through streaming and digital downloads A completely different different universe now suddenly Dealers and auction houses and the contrasting ways a desperately having to depend on online platforms to try to claw back revenue an cook. No the reason that we're doing this this week. Scotties IS THE IS THE IS. It would be a monster week in in the auction calendar. So what what are what? Are you seeing out there? That people doing to kind of create a sense of excitement around this we can in its place. Well it's it's interesting quickest. Today may thirteenth would've been in the evening. Sotheby's would offer a Francis Bacon triptych the sixty million dollars And last year the equivalent sale made three hundred and forty two million dollars. Now what's happening at this moment as we're speaking is that Selby's have got an online sale of contemporary art consisting of twenty-five lots and online sale of impression molten are of twenty five lots When I looked loss the top bid for the contemporary. So was six hundred thousand. Four eight narrow painting impression that sale two hundred and eighty thousand four. Renoir so this is a massive massive contraction not hopefully thought Bacon on the Clifford still an election standard. Each at around twenty million. We'll eventually get offered but in terms of what's happening now it's a huge huge contraction. They prepared is it purely that. The existing status quo was was doing so well that they just thought. Well we're not going to need to be as digitally focused as other industries. First thing is it's it's a very traditional industry even within the Contemporary Sec. Till you have these great big grand buildings that everyone's terrified to walk into You've got these auction. House is essentially a an eighteenth century model of doing business. An even in the contemporary set to these sort of eighteenth century ways of doing business have to have remained pretty well unchanged The other problem of course is a is a sort of technical problem that the artworks are generally unique and generally horribly expensive And so it's not like buying a download or a or a book from Amazon. These unique objects paying a lot of money for them and people want to see them and they want to have a discussion with with with with gallery owner or auction near about them. And this is always created a barrier to an exponential increase in online sales in this particular business sector to. What extent is also about demographics in the sense that we hear lot about the pursuit of new young collectors? If there was really critical mass of native digital collectors would have made an enormous difference in terms of developing digital platforms quickly. Well there is in the ups balls or pool. One element did emerge with said that there is a the millennial collectors was spending more money than their parents generation through online sales not to melena click. This is from the ultra wealthy sector of society I think one thing that is blindsided. The growth of online sales of art is actually a very fundamental and profound change in consumer spending habits particularly in terms of its look people have written about and Lotta people analyzing it at the moment to shift among millennials and younger consumers towards experience Robin possession. So I think we have what we see here now is actually younger people. Aren't that interested in owning to toll on this is suppressed I think dampen demand in the online sector is. This is the generation that feels very very comfortable about buying things online and also younger people. Just simply don't have as much disposable income as the parents and ought as we said before is just very very expensive all of it's pretty expensive You know I've random conversation with SEAN SCULLY and I. I mentioned him. Well the problem with famous artists. You you don't produce inexpensive things for middle-class people to buy new wobbled you talking about I make prince or any ten thousand dollars and I said have you any appreciation for ten thousand dollars is to. Most people didn't seem to have an idea about law. You talked about the thirst for experience and that's also crucial isn't now because suddenly with rust into this position where experiential art has suddenly become difficult. Took to Marina Abramovich last week and we talked about about how suddenly performance it was fundamentally potentially unhealthy that level of interaction with the audience. So that's very much a factor in this as well isn't it? I know I know me Klein. As written about how big tech has gained to to capitalize on this situation and I thought it was one very very revealing quote from some Anouchka. Sonoko US see you of steer attack a Maryland based companies selling self parking technology. And she said there has been a distinct warming up to Human Lewis contactless technology. Humans are bio hazards machines and ought and the idea that every human being see is a biohazard I think is going to have the most catastrophic effects on on the well on Tim's of the experience of being able to do works that involve participation and congregation. But just the idea that in any environment the person in front of you could possibly make you. Die Is making things very very difficult for the creative industries and also for the theater of the art world right that seems to be absolutely crucial because because so much of the exclusivity of the world is in the kind of whole. Shebang around the work not just the work itself. Arcelor Leagues In. This is the problem with with digital both in willed abortions and art fairs. It's it's impossible to quantify but It's the whole froth all going particularly for a very wealthy person of going to these events getting into VIP Being seen going around the fair with your art adviser meeting other very very wealthy collectors an you can say well. I've got that green coons. Oh you got the Magenta One. Having conversations like that going to dinners at the three kings of the chilton firehouse to to anyone not involved in this world it seems nonsensical. Froth but actually it underpins the value the very top top-end of the market. And if you skim away that froth it's have really profound effects on the on the economics of the art world in relation to a lease. I'm wondering you know being overly pessimistic. We thinking in the art world is full of creative people they raise now massive investment going into the digital. Are we underestimating? The capacity of the will to recover and find new. Idioms new ways of doing things in the sensor through a full conversations going on really fascinating subjects autism Carry on creating art. That will continue but the way that people talk about digital transformation in the world of weights reported is inevitably bias. That going digital is very repulsive. But when you ought to look at the numbers that really really scary. I'll I'll give you an example of actually come to call pyrex who analyzes the Actions now we can't we. We can't get data on sales reliable data on sales from from Fez From dealers but we can get verifiable data from from auction. Houses complex is analyzed results from LAS tres auctions and competitive this year and with particularly interesting is that overall April is is a is emerging as the cruelest months. Because in April for the first time ever all your questions Ron Lines have essentially one hundred percent online options and apples interesting month because it generally doesn't have a distorting out lies of major evening sales web things make tens of millions so in the sense. It's a sort of typical month for the auction world. Now loss April the three main auction houses. That's Philip Southern Christie's took five hundred eighty five million dollars in their lives options and all nine options as well. Now this April which is one hundred percent online. They took forty four million. So that's down ninety two percent now. That's a considerable considerable. Hit Em what's also significant about it. Is that actually? Auctions are an environment which do suit online selling because people are generally. It's it's a secondary market. The stuff isn't fresh people familiar with these images. So it's even tougher for the dealers when that setting unfamiliar material so the numbers are really pretty frightening. But if that's the case would not socially distance finish physical event remedy. That so in other words. So let's say the UK's now saying that can have you know. There is the potential for auctions to happen in due course where you know fewer people. It's all very carefully managed socially distance because you will have the people bidding on the phone you will have people bidding online but you have something of a physical event where there is an auctioneer and the work is work is behind them and you have something of the theater. Which is it possible. That with an element of easing of the lockdown. It won't be so catastrophic. What I find surprising is there is a format the conservatory which is a which I think your leading to which is a a hybrid auction which is essentially live. You have it on Camera. You have an auctioneer and you have people taking telephone bid. Some say ocean is taking online bids. But there's no one in the the auction room. This happened in the past actually live auctions for example something like a book sale. You go into a book auction. Saw Abe's and you'd be the only person in the room. So there is a president actually in life sales but I know Christie's is going to experiment and Walmart with this format in comb and I think it would work particularly as when you actually go to a live cell visit so little bidding in the room anyway. Most of the people there are there to be seen to show that they're the they're still plays they're in the action they're still in the game And a tiny proportion bidding actually comes from the room so that is the solution. I'm I'm slightly surprised. The auction houses on pushing that as a as a as a an effective compromise. So we have this ongoing situation we expect for at least a couple of years and so we so there's going to be obviously a very deep financial hit right now but the the art market has shown terrific resilience in the post so it was clear that the art market recovered better than many other industries from the financial crisis could not happen again. How do you feel that the situation will be so significantly different? It's not a metric to compare against this. This is a fascinating question. Because when you look at the figures from two thousand eight two thousand nine when the market in inverted commas collapsed or had a serious downturn It bounced back very very quickly. Indeed and Within within a year or so and the reason for that was the central banks use quantitative easing and they took great financial fire hose and sprayed liquidity at The financial institutions and that very quickly inflated asset prices for example property equities and art and. So we that kick started the boom again now very little. That money actually trickled down into what we would recognize. As the real economy ended exaggerated financial inequality income inequality to to to really concerning degree. The big question hanging over this current crisis is how governments again to pay for their rescue patches if they take a more imaginative approach and raw the news of quantitative easing all go forbid tax cuts them income inequality would be reduced and actually paradoxically that that would put money into the market. What we're seeing though. The for example is a fascinating podcasting The philosopher a neuroscientist Sam Harris and Andrew Yang who is a the Democratic candidate for the presidency they discussed income inequality and the big choices facing America and of course if trump wins in December that it's their view that income inequality will really quite explode an already the rescue packages the devised by the US government. Most of that money vast majority is going to be corporations that will give wealthy collectors money and the whole thing could bounce back very very quickly indeed if on the other hand trump loses the election and Biden word to win then I think we'll social democratic and more more more and more spreads settlement whitens you That would interestingly back up the theory. That pandemics generally reduce income inequality. But I notice today in the Guardian that Thomas Pikachu who's ultra capital not twenty fifth century. He's unsure which way or go on a knife-edge edge where the income inequality will explode or that will be imaginative solutions. The settlement and money will be more evenly spread if the latter happens actually that will that will suppress prices in the art market. It's IT'S A it's a fascinating choice. One of the interesting questions will be if we get to a situation where there is a recovery to let say. There's a positive recovery things go better than expected to what extent digital will have an increased presence in the armory or whether it will go back to this kind of status quo. Before you know. We'll we'll be. We've learned a lot from that digital experience but actually this were better. What do so in other words. I suppose what question asking is. Do you feel we now. Face a future in which digital continues to grow and grow in the armory of auction houses and galleries or do you think there is a possibility where it just it retreats back to a relatively insignificant role in this. I think Swat what one fascinating element would be off as. I like a lot of people that you I'm sure looked to the the the the freeze jellab fat in one interesting aspect of it slightly jumping around is the to get into it. You had to have a VIP pass which I thought was very telling illustration of the exclusive in marginal nature of the art world Com ordinary people. Look at it but apparently you have to be. Vip TAP news around. I thought that was quite early. Anyway once you get into goes into the side and I think reaction slightly reflect. There was a good piece by Tim. Schneider who sort of side by side with a collective going through the fair interesting lack collector bought three pieces and they all been reserved beforehand. Roy What was interesting about is. I couldn't really tell the difference between this is an art fair and accurate. Gator Internet shopping site. I felt the time so I could I could. I have been buying a shed or rowing machine. Really didn't make that much difference an experience. It was just really really boring now. If you if you look at some of the viewing rooms the opping created there are some quite imagine it solutions coming up an occurred to me that the world is actually a small industry which is why big tech hasn't really gotten bold but it struck me if someone really got hold this ball and ran with it. Who is very savvy intensive terms of tech? They could go to the these Dealers several actually. Which is virtual fairs? Which aren't really fares I can do something more exciting. And it struck me. The the the the sort of dullness of these events is able the no the vents these virtual fares. I think they're very very vulnerable. And something very mentioned so much. More imaginative could be created and very quickly The EMINI if of freeze not balls could could slip away quite quickly and I think secondly I having spoken to de la's in spoken to to to people who are construct lease viewing rooms. I think dealers realizing that when they're well-designed they do drool people in and are very very effective at jumped to when we get round to it again going into a gallery and seeing the object in person and talking about it And so I I can see that this Refined and much more imaginative approach to tech will actually augment the physical live aspect of Cetinje got a life undulations Has a slightly positive intimate? Lost Exclusive Scott. Thank you very much. Thank you You can reach Ray writing for the art newspaper at the newspaper. Dot Com or on the APP a bit later. We'll hear from our art market. It is about the range of digital initiatives and we took to Rebecca Salter about Leeann spiel yet but first here are some of the top stories on the website this week. The British government's roadmap to easing lockdown. I delivered in a prerecorded television broadcast by Prime Minister. Boris Johnson on Sunday and followed up with a more detailed dossier on Monday suggests that British auction houses and galleries could open as early as the first of June trade associations announced that the government has agreed to recognize galleries and auction houses as nonessential retail and therefore part of a second phase of the easy of lockdown beginning on the first of June subject to infection rates falling of course however the case Department for Culture Media and Sport told our writers Anna Brady and any shore. The cultural organizations including museums will be considered as part of the third step of the process. So not open before the fourth of July you can hit more on this in a moment from Anna Brady. The Museum Manatt in New. York has reportedly become involved in the controversy over plans to demolish a government building in Oslo known for its concrete mules conceived by pepper Makassar. Gareth Harris writes that the y block is due to be demolished under government plans following a terrorist car bomb attack in twenty eleven but a letter from moma representatives including an Tamken curator of painting and sculpture. Ask the which politicians to reconsider the approved decision for demolition. The brutal is building designed by the Norwegian. Architect EARL INVICTA in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. Two Murals designed by Picasso sandblasted onto its concrete walls. The fishermen on the building's facade and the -sego located in the lobby they would be salvaged and relocated undercard plan and finally Foto. London is sketching out a vision for a socially distance aren't fair and ensure rights. The organizers announced that they plan to the fair in early October to coincide with freeze and that the Fed is temporarily locating to grace in gardens is usually any somerset. House is occupied by the one fifty. Four African Art Fat Grazing Gardens is one of the largest private young gardens in London and would allow voter London to construct a tent. Large enough to adhere to social distancing rules fighter. London's CO founder. Michael Benson says. He's cautiously optimistic about his event happening. In the autumn you can read all these stories and more at the art newspaper. Dot Com or on the APP. We'll be back after this. We cannot is brought to you in association. Christie's as collectors and art lovers increasing to browse and purchase online Christie's continues to expand its online at the option calendar to new salaries now forbidding bring craftsmanship into your home with the collector. Christie's online sale of furniture and objects from seventeen to the nineteenth century and discovered lecture magnum. Kobe de la new fascinating sale of old master paintings. Sculpture and scientific objects refreshed you. Competence Christie's private bid by out anytime and from any way find out more on Christie's welcome back now market editor and Brady and senior editor in New York. Margaret Kerrigan has spent much of the last months in online viewing rooms or galleries fares an auction houses. So what are they made it? They join me now to discuss their experiences and a US this week reported on the UK. Easing it's lockdown and the effect on the market and actually some particularly some initiatives which have bumped the market up sorts of times. Get you for this. Can you tell us more about them? Yeah well I'm burst onsun. published the UK guidelines on Sunday. And then on Monday with a bit more clarity but a I think a lot of individual industries the auto industry included didn't really know how these general guidelines where she to apply to them so on Tuesday morning there was a phone call between various trade associations and some of the auction houses with the Department of Culture Media and sport. He they've been talking to you quite a lot over the lockdown and that was really to Kinda thrash out exactly how this will apply to auction houses to commercial galleries. They will say actually Angela covering museums as well just in terms of how what they might be able to do in terms of coming back into into action and possibly reopening so on that it was established that commercial galleries and auction houses cancer to reopen from gene. The fast as part of calling it stage two with all the social distancing measures in place so that was kind of what we didn't know beforehand and these trade bodies have been pushing over the past few weeks for commercial galleries and auction houses. Tb considered among de-coding non-essential retail businesses. Which are being allowed to reopen hopefully injure Nathan faction rates allow a few wags on twitter. Appointee that quite amusing to see galleries and auction houses defining themselves as nonessential retail after so long telling us what important August coach institutions now. Yeah it's quite funny pushing fishing to defined as such. I mean say the other thing is that With social distancing I mean if you look into the vast majority of swanky Mayfair galleries in their white keeps social. Distancing in them is not going to be too hot anyway because most of the time The empty or have possibly a couple of other people in them and somebody glaring people on the front desk so Say That's it. They're actually going to be easy to control because a lot of buzzes on the door anyway. What is going to be much much? More difficult is oversee as well Auction houses. They kind of sit somewhere in between say they're probably going to be out to stop possibly doing lifestyles but with much much reduced audience of maybe say ten people. Those details have got to be sorted out in the coming weeks. They say they're not quite sure exactly how they can operate as yet. That's the kind of big surprise isn't it? I mean in a way that it was expected was it. Not The auction. Houses would be sold to group together with things cinemas and theatres because they were so audience driven. Yep So anthony. Brown from the British Art Market Federation has been pushing on this point for quite a few weeks. He was saying this Back at the end of February. I can't quite remember the Regulations name that the government policies regulations. Which kind of form the legal basis for the lockdown and as part of that Auction houses were auctions. Rather were Categorized with nightclubs theaters and cinemas. Because this is sort of general perception that they're always crowded places as if you see them on television. They're big evening sales later. People in their say they've been pushing the point that auction houses ain't necessarily have to be like that they can either be done just with the auctioneers and people on. Feigns bidding remain the or just with a very very fee bidders in the room say they have actually been out to really push auction houses forward in terms of reopening. Say That I saw the bees told me this morning that they are planning to create them from the from gene. The first with staggered evening hours. Improperly doing some quite a lot by appointment knee and with a sort of rooting system through the actual auction house itself rather like they're doing and see markets at the moment as well but the again that they're all say trying to work out exactly. What sort of requirements will be in place over the next few weeks when they get a bit more instruction from the government? Okay so let's turn to the digital visits. Yes there will be some easings oversea. That hasn't yet happened in the states. Margaret but still I think digital is going to be something of the the most dominant reality and Youtube spent a Lotta time recently. Dealing with these data to initiatives that start with freeze New York. Because that's still on as we speak and that viewing room overseas is about as high profile as get so margaret ear at a big piece about this. Do you WanNa tell me about your experience. I think what's really interesting about these? Online platforms is no matter. How MUCH MONEY IN TECH? You're pouring into them. They are just kind of rudimentary Online marketplaces and vastly behind the curve. Like my big takeaway from it was that I could. You know what I was saying. That like Alan shopping requires you know putting a bunch of stuff in your cart. And the like. I don't want any of that. There's no carte function on something like freeze or even Our Basel's and most people thought that the freeze online viewing room was a step above the initial Basel. One in March Just IN TERMS OF FUNCTIONALITY. But it still had some very weird ticks that should ostensibly. The technology exists to fix like things like the filter function. You could only filter by price by medium and by gender which did not understand. That seemed like a weird choice. But I Okay And then on top of the price like really easy which is that should have been caught. I think way in advance. Is that when you're filtering by price? If you're looking for work under ten thousand dollars works that were a hundred thousand euros. Were still coming up because they were in a different currency. I think it's difficult to compare the online viewing room experience to an actual fair in any any sense of the word because as much as the quality of the work might even be there. The quality of the experience is so low. One of the things that Scott Rayban just said when I talked to him about all this is that the theater aspect of the art world is so crucial and one of the things that occurred to me as someone who doesn't spend a lot of time in these. Viewing rooms is that there was none of that. It was very prosaic. Maybe that's what the galleries and the fares they learned that. That's what the collectors. But it seems to me that it was it wouldn't hold you for very long this experience energy when what was your experience with them. It's really hard to you. Try and get a sense of kind of anticipation an event about a website. I mean you feel for the fair companies with this is how you how you keep people engaged how you keep that sense of momentum and maybe discovery when you're going through. I mean there's no when you walk into a fair there's kind of there's a sense of starting somewhere and finishing somewhere whereas with this sort of infinite there's no end to it and say doesn't lift you out of your everyday life. I find the dog could still bark. Child could still come and interrupt. You WanNa Guy. One needs to play with them. You're not lifted into that kind of glamorous sense of you know just being in another world for little but suspended in this Lavish wealthy weld for for all its foltz with restaurants that go with it and everything else it you just can't have that online And to some extent maybe that's to do with the fact that these are vent companies. They're very very good at producing live events freeze and Basel. That's what they do. Suddenly they're expected to be brilliant digital companies as well And they're just learning inventory. Sydell was quite open about the freeze platform was something that was being developed. Anyway but they. They've had to scramblers for this occasion. If they were lucky to have something to start with but term they made new gains about the fact that it is definitely still in production. This developing it. They'll take back after this is finished and develop it further but yeah definitely bringing up all of the flaws and quite how far we are behind say the fashion world. I do think it's really interesting. What you said about you know how freezing our Basel both claim they had this already in development in this kind of technology so I think what's an interesting part of this equation to me is that there was clearly a kind of strategic plan within the art world to do much more of this. And now we're being forced to and there's been kind of a resistance to buying online for so long at least in mass quantities And now that's the only way to buy so I. I think what I take away from this idea that everyone already mid development on these platforms and that's not just the fares that's places like housing worth that was developing. Its own virtual reality software and virtual viewing platform and all these other like mid tier galleries that are launching their own Viewing rooms just basically like an updated website that has little higher res- Images on it things like that I think there is this question of clearly. They knew they were going to need to start integrating this into their business model. But I don't know that they have struck on the audience for it or or the quite right Understanding of WHO uses websites to to buy already. Because I don't think it's their predominant base. Now that's really interesting is a question. I'll skirt which is that you know. Is there a more digitally native audience for Buying Art? So in a sense. Is there anyone out there? Thinking are at last. This is the most convenient way for me to buy are really like the atmosphere galleries but I like her. And therefore finally this is the time if you like. Is there any evidence that people there is a younger? Perhaps audience wants to buy out like this. I fell like at the lower kind of end of this of this market. Probably is what I don't think they're going to be happy doing. And what I think is. Frustrating is the fact that these `this websites. You can't do like a by now function. You have typical the inquiry Boston and then send an email and then you have to wait the gallery to respond to you. They might be very quick but often they won't be particularly CEO Nathan Day. They're getting lots of inquiries to what makes me. What makes kind of ECOMMERCE work is and the nature of the the you can just click on and buy it and get it. Send your home at the moment with this. You obviously have to inquire about you. Date knew the exact price so all of these things are so important for making say online fashion web. Very well apply here and then there's also the other than this is just a logistical problem to deal with Carina viruses. A lot of these pieces he went be able to have it. Shipped T for quite a long time because Airfreight is shipping's much much reversal of the ship is of furloughed or best off. The of air freight has gone through the roof because there were safe flight since if he roots and these an export license certainly from UK. When get it so Yeah all of these sort of instrumentation instantaneous factors. They really apply for their so. It's called a few barriers. And what do you think about? Well I think the yeah. The shipping issue is is a bear but also probably temporary. But the by now thing. Is I really big issue facing the pivot to online right now and it is one thing that I was? I will say that. Sotheby's did well with the introduction of their gallery network platform which They allow basically like point of sale purchases within their own online platform which they are hosting galleries on which is kind of strange model to have an auction house bringing dealers and be like hey sell through us but what it allows buyers to do is to do that. Exact you know I want. I WanNa buy this right now. Click here's my credit card INFO boom and it's all processed through subsidies and then the just goes and tells the the gallery. Hey you sold this work through us and I think that's actually really really smart because that is how online sales I think need to happen. at least throughout most of the market. Obviously like really big ticket items. Maybe will require a little more back and forth. But that's that's very common practice already when you're trying to sell multi-million dollar work you're going to have to do some hand-wringing and and meeting and talking and viewing But it's something that the art world has struggled with with the the by now feature that something like an pre existing online sales platform like artsy introduced last year but hasn't had a lot of success with but I think Sotheby's potentially could because so the bees has the Industry brand recognition and kind of like vetting cachet to make a by now purchase. More OF A SAFE BET. One of the things that we know about about galleries. Is you see and one of the things that we see on the online. Viewing rooms is is that there are prices given for for most of the artworks but we also know that different crises. They were different discounts for museums. That kind of stuff but with auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's as it straighter in the sense that the price given moved the price paid and therefore is that an advantage for auction houses in this sort of more impersonal world or is that is that a simplification. I- probably is an advantage in this in this sort of world and as you say the fact that auction houses it's always been a little less intimidating because you can see the estimate even if it's alive sale you're sitting there bidding and you can see how the price is going up and you know We should know when when you have to stop bidding when you can't afford it anymore whereas as you say with a with a gallery often is not so clear you have to find out what the price is. You never quite sure whether that surprise for you or whether that might be a low or high price for somebody else So yes so. I think it's possibly less intimidating and the auction has been doing this for ages and online instant online sales. They do have. They've got a really big head. Start with having done by fitting as well. So so yeah. I think they've been trying to kind of ingende this This trust in buying online for fifteen years for me so you don't really have that maybe through the fares they all of the buyers will bide auction underfed as well as you say. That sort of something to do with brand trust is built three relationships and just getting used to buying in a certain way from certain platform. Maybe that's something that's going to gray for FAZ. And and fatter is as well Margaret in in your piece about the freeze on online. It was really interesting to see. The certain prices were being given. You know you could you. Could you could explore in a more transparent. Apparently transparent way what what the prices are is that something of an illusion genuinely transparent. No I think there's a lot of people talking about how well and this isn't a new conversation. This has been going on since the advent of of selling online over the past two decades The idea that there's some kind of like transparency by being able to purchase online or more democratic field that allows more buyers to come in and purchase art work I think is has always been kind of a red herring. The potential for it perhaps is there but you know Only the auction houses are really the the bastions of of pricing And that's how it kind of how the art world has always established the the value of works against this The price they're willing to publish it and and posts in their sales Now that you have it coming in to others fears like the freeze online. Viewing Room Something that it's something that started also with The Art Basel Hong Kong Viewing Room in these online viewing rooms. The sale price is listed. And then you have to click to inquire. You can't buy right then. The inquiry process is where any any number of transactions could start to occur like discounting. And you know kind of going back and forth with the client about what what. Maybe they feel like. They want to spend or if they're going to put it institutional collection that that's like business as usual one hundred percent for the art world and then on the freeze platform. What I thought was so interesting that once the work has sold you can no longer see the price it was listed for. It just says sold so in the end that isn't offering any more transparency they could ostensibly put whatever price they want on that work then whoever inquires about it they could offer them another price. And then we'll never be the wiser for what had actually sold for But I do think that this kind of moment is bringing up some interesting dialogue around what it means to have price transparency in the art market. And that it's been kind of evidenced in a recent online sales platform that was started by this conceptual artists. Darren Baiter who is selling his own work and the work of about twenty other mid career artists through their dealers on his website that he's created and they are all the all priced As what they would have been for sale for a sensible in fair setting and then that price is struck through a next to it is a price and red lettering and they're all discounted From anywhere between thirty and ninety percent and so you can kind of see the arbitrariness of pricing and artwork within this really simple kind of tongue in cheek sales platform that he's created that is offering a lot of commentary on how business is done but it's also just a really good way to move some artwork in this particular moment. Let's see also he's also of engaging with the Tobu's of sailing up right so he's exploring the idea of the inventory which is a word that sends dealers into a panic. You know you're not. You're not supposed to mention inventories. In the stock of an artist dealers have so not only as a platform for selling. But it's a commentary right so it's almost sales platform right. Yeah it's definitely a really sharp commentary isn't artwork as website essentially but also very functional artwork and. This is really a hallmark of of Darren's work. Already I mean he has always been interested in looking into the meaning of art and its relationship to money like five years ago. He raised sixteen thousand dollars on a crowd funding website in order to sell the stack of money itself as as a lot in at Christie's London and ended up netting more than sixteen thousand dollars and then he just donated all the charity so he plays this with this a lot. But I think I think what's interesting about his platform inventory Is is that it. It's that moment where this has clearly been on on a lot of people's minds for a really long time and now is the kind of point to drill down on what what we're doing in the art market currently at how can we do it better. Can we talk about some of the things which we've liked because I'm aware that so far both Scott you guys? We sort of had a critical view but there are some things which I think all of us have engaged with. We've we've found enjoyable experiences an neither Anna you like the vajgl gallery site. We should get which feels more sort of virtual virtual experience. Yes it's interesting how. It doesn't necessarily have to be the very biggest galleries to doing some of the best stuff here as well. It's sort of interesting how it's of playing with the hierarchy little bit when you're in your nine space so they've released a really cool and the Sort OF GALLERY TOUR ONLINE. Viewing Room Which I think is a lot more sophisticated. Feels a lot more real? It feels that you've got that sense of exploration which is really hard to create online So I like what they've done an to my mind. It's a lot better than what has been worth of done as well with theft. Npr space in the Minoan. One which I kind of is clever like it. It gives the sense. They're very good. She got kind of creating this A sense of atmosphere and a website which is quite hard to do. This brand is very strong in that kind of way even it was very kind of lifestyle e so with the sort of and everything else it kind of you. Do you get a sense of of the space that they will be creating Minorca which is meant for next year So yeah so. It's interesting to kind of see these. These different kinds of approaches Margaret. Cho Yours an effective use of digital. I think that like something like an houser interesting technology like. That's I think it's cool that they've created something so in-depth and we're going to see I think a lot more of that kind of bespoke. Vr technology coming out from many galleries says untitled. Art Fair is going to launch kind of similar software for for their fair platform. Soon and I don't know if it's good or good or bad per se like it's certainly entertaining and I think that the entertainment is probably important. Because that's that's what the art world has also kind of really relied on to get people excited about. It seems to me that the art world has had such control over its ascetic and it's an ascetic really works arch coolness that so many galleries. Have you know the materials of the architecture and the spacing between where everything is so immaculately controlled and suddenly? There's a whole new language that they have to learn about how to make things sell online. Which is totally different from the physical experience. So it's in a way. It's a sort of challenge rule. The galleries and the auction has everyone to develop an ascetic for selling our online which attracts that level of kind of atmosphere and event coach which is so central to ourselves right as so interesting as she. The idea of kind of an howdy put a personality of any business effectively into website. I would have no idea where to start. But it's these tiny little subliminal messages really when it comes to visited a gallery or an art fair or it could be a restaurant or whatever else it is that it'll be the scent of the of the Hansa from the lose or whatever whatever it is little tiny kind of signifies of the quality of place the kind of play kind of person that's meant to appeal to and of course the fact that you're part of part of that club tribe if that appeals to you and I'm sure that these online spaces particularly in the World Health Organization yesterday one that this might become endemic. Kerlin viruses was it. I mean you know. We don't know how long we're going to be living with these online. Viewing rooms four. Um and I do think that going to go away but it be interesting to see how how they can start to more effectively. Mvp Out with that kind of same. Perception of value intrigued an inaugural. Thanks for joining us. Thank you thank you Could read and Margaret's latest reports on the website and the APP and finally this week the latest in our series lonely work in which we look at works in museums that have closed because of the corona virus this week Rebecca Sorta the president of the Royal Academy has chosen symmetry by the Belgian Leon. Spiel yet the. Ira had opened a show of spirits. Work the first ever. Uk Survey On the twenty third of February but it closed along with the other UK museums. A few weeks later you can see an image of the work as we discussed it at the newspaper. Dot Com Click on the link on the homepage and look for this episode but before we turned to the Belgian. I asked suitor about the announcement that the academy canceled. This summer's exhibitions of ZAN. Angelica Kauffman it feels to me as if we were involved in some extraordinarily complicated game of of Three D chess and exhibitions deep-frozen all over the planet. And it's going to be. It's going to take a long time to UNPICK IT and get. Orek exhibitions in the right place and when we looked both Thursday submissions. It just became due to be here in the summer and it was a pragmatic decision. Really the institutions. That have them at the moment so the Kunz passed into Solo Foot Chester Kaufmann and Princeton Museum. Which has some the season they don't really had them open for very short space of time so it was a very sad decision. Because obviously you don't like to cancel exhibitions particularly the curator's all the stuff. We've been working so hard on the cruise and I have to say as the first female president of the Royal Academy who is going to be something rather wonderful about the CDC to connect species of Calvin who was a founding Kadam mission the role academies in a unique position. Because while a lot of people listening to this will probably think the academy is publicly funded sadly but so you know. Obviously that suggests to me that you will more precarious than other other public institutions is not the reality all. They're pros to your position as well as comes. The website that keeps going around my head in relation to the Royal Academy is plucky and I think the fact that we've been independent for two hundred and fifty two years now means that we've met it. We've met various crises along the way and we have found a way through them and I think that does give us a certain amount of flexibility and I think possibly we can take decisions quite quickly because of that But of course it's still not easy and we are losing facing the loss of about a million pounds a month during closure so it's profoundly uncomfortable but you know again as I keep saying you know everybody's in a nobody. Nobody has ever done this before now. One of the shows that you sadly had to close not long after it had opened woes the Lion Spirit show which was in the sackler galleries at the top of the building and I was amazed to see that it was only open for three weeks. For some reason. I had a memory of the January on a very very small window in which to introduce it to the public. So we're GONNA talk about one of the worst that's in that show now symmetry and I am really interested why they seem each of all of them. Yes can I say something about spill yet? I mean this again is a is another sadness that I'm dealing with about thirty years ago. I had a part time job in Bonn Street. Gallery and at lunchtime we would all sort of. We were artists to working there. Part time you know wrapping up paintings and what we were doing and at lunchtime we'd sit wolf down Sandwiches and then fan out around the galleries to see what was on. And I can clearly remember walking out of the front door looking across Bond Street while I've been working in the morning had put a new painting in the gallery opposite and I now on and I found out it was a spirit and I was drawn to it. I wish I could remember which one it was. And of course it's embarrassing to say this but pre Internet. It was very difficult to find out. Decipher the signature. And then there was nothing in English and I ANY BELGIAN. I have met I asked about split. I only did meet a Belgian. Who sent me cattle so? I was thrilled at the idea that we have him in Monroe Academy so desperately side. Yes so why this picture? It's very interesting because when I when you asked me to do this I was quite keen to talk about spill yet because I was quite. I'm still quite interested in what it was about his work. That drew me in. I think there is Inelegant in his sort of compositions which resonate with Japanese art and of course having spent longtime Japan. I think that's probably why I was drawn to him. And then of course. The extraordinary thing is that they are about solitude and isolation. Which of course is what we're all dealing with. So when I got the catalog out I made it a went to the ones. That were my favorites before lockdown. That in the end. This was one of my favorites. But I ended up being drawn to this one. And I think it's because you will most feel if you're inside looking out and that's what we're all doing a lot whereas my previous favorites were the ones at the end of Ostend peer. Which of course it profoundly planner outdoors looking off into the horizon and this to me feels I mean it's not very tightly symmetry pat anyway. It feels more like a lockdown view. Indeed is is really. It's a preemie pathway images and it's so intas which is of course the common quality of so much that early period of his work which which the the Royal Academy to its Credit. I think focus on in the sense that so spirit is such an curious character and obviously had this incredibly tormented existence to mental illness by insomnia. He would go on these long walks in the city so there was this matching of kind of this sort of inky darkness in the work with the kind of the darkness of his psychological experience. Right yes and I think. That's that's what makes them so powerful and particularly now because I think what we're all discovering is that there are joys to solitude and isolation but there are also really quite profound difficulties and I think that's what he wrestled with all his life and he found some. Solis particularly in the landscapes. I think that I'd like to explore that Japanese quality because one of the things I looked in the catalog because I knew talking to you and I knew the O- background with with you. Success was it in Japan and so I wanted obviously because of the sort of distinctly Japanese quality of some of his whether there was much evidence of him having looked prince so many artists word his time. There wasn't much evidence in the catalog. But do you know of any connection with with with Japanese prints. I imagine he did see the Manatt because the other interesting thing was that because he was in Paris and he did show an expedition with Picasso which is another reason why. I think it's particularly moving that we should have both of them under under our roof at the same time because that also I think tells you about the seven deputy of different autistic journeys you know because his career went off in one particularly global direction spill went back and lift this sort of rather more isolated life in in Belgium. But I can't believe that he hadn't seen a lot of Japanese prints one of the other connections with you. Thought was in his monochrome. Yes so am which of course is very very eastern days but to me. What's really interesting is yes. You occasionally has the kind of darkness and incubus that we that I mentioned but very often you work. Even though you're using monochrome can have a lightness whereas in NAM split that that. That lightness appears only occasionally gently. Doesn't it well what I could say? Perhaps he was more miserable than I don't. This is basic. Is that who knows what I might add up. I think there's one other thing which I find particularly appealing about his work particularly his choice of materials and how he uses them and the fact that he never really felt at home with the traditional European medium of of oil on canvas and he worked in layers this softness to that and I have for ferry direct experience of this. Oh when I was working in Japan I was using water based pigment on paper and I still use water base pigments and the something about the way. A water based pigment meets a slightly absorbent surface. Which is much softer. And in a way the surface becomes one with the color owners. Unlike oil which you know sits on the surface of it more and I can remember when I've moved back here after being Japan for so long I found oil paintings actually quite difficult to look at. I found the surface was excluded. The viewer the sorts of shine in this of it. I mean obviously this now but it was quite an interesting reaction to what was basically my European culture. I kinda grown away from it the next thing but of course you say during our fundamental to your practice you enjoys a fundamental to your paintings but also you have you have words on paper and of course printmaking in printmaking sort of a key part of your artistic armor as well as an. I'm wondering about how much when you're looking at spirits work on paper whether whether you see it in relation to your own works on paper more or whether actually that's that's two binary way of thinking is I particularly the one life chosen. I think the reason why I've drawn to to the Kelly graphic marks and having spent that much time in the east you learn slightly different understanding of the drawn mark because calligraphy so fundamental to Eastern culture and because it comes from the written word this sort of individual identity of the brush line. I think is stronger than the line in the West which can be much more descriptive and I think this work. I mean to be honest. This could almost have been done by eastern calligrapher. It doesn't immediately come. Just those scrolls doesn't long scrolls in one the purchase museum for instance. Yes and the way those scrolls I mean the other interesting thing about those scrolls is the way the red because they are you know then narrative to picture scrolls you read them from one direction. And that's very different reading an illustrated book for example which just can give you random access. So it's actually the physicality of the scroll is important to the composition of the picture and so so slightly film Iq in a way. Yes very much. So and that's the point that's made by lieutenant in the Royal Academy Catalog. That he sees that he's he's a what he makes. The connection between the work called Vertigo Bush Amelia and hitchcock and it was. That sort of there is a cinematic call the two. Yeah absolutely and the way he's using the edges and of course again in the east without the central vanishing point perspective. Broadly speaking the way. The artist engages four. Edges is almost as important. What's going on right in within the middle of the picture and I think this is another brilliant event. Now that the the show itself which would have been his last week's now for the second to last week I think is the reality that it will not open again. When the news this week was the cultural institutions. Might Open that the earliest in July. But obviously this was due to tour to the dossier so can you tell us whether whether there's any at the moment we've we've got a tour of online which I think is is is wonderful. Stopgap I don't know whether I'll be honestly. It depends when we're able to open an how we're able to open at the moment. We're working on the logistics of how you get people through through the building because the building is unbelievably complicated. And if you've got to have one way traffic and two meters part is it's a whole piece of work. I think if we could open it we would love to would mention the catalog. The catalog is actually a really beat. Hoops Oh we should urge people to read that and say absolutely and I urge people to look at Spinney it. I think he's a much overlooked artist and what was interesting. I found in this in a short space of time he was with. The expedition was open I had a lot of comments from other artists saying I didn't I didn't know about him. I'd never seen his work so I think he as while talking cooled and artists artist Amatil conspiracy to see the online tool that Rebecca mentioned visit Royal Academy Dot Org Dot UK. And just to say that after I spoke to Rebecca the Royal Academy got in touch to say that the exhibition of Land Spirit has been extended until the twentieth of September and dependent upon government vice and museums and other arts organizations being able to open after the fourth of July. There is a possibility that it will open again so fingers crossed for this week. You can subscribe to the newspaper at Your newspaper. Dot Com become a subscribing at the top left of the homepage amply. Subscribe to this podcast. If you haven't already league ratings on review if you enjoyed it can also find us on twitter. Facebook instagram and Telegram Telegraph. Invite Code is at the top of our daily newsletters which you can subscribe to you at the Dot Com. We cannot by Judy House. Cats and Dawson diabetes of the tentativeness. Thanks to Scott Margaret Enter Rebecca. We cannot with Christie's visit Christie's to come to find out more about the wealth leading auction house seventeen sixty six private sales online anytime.

Philip Southern Christie London UK Margaret Kerrigan president Sotheby New York Royal Academy Scott Basel US Anna Brady Tim Scott Rayburn the art newspaper New York Times Darren Baiter Nathan Day Anna Brady Carrigan
 Does Los Angeles want a big art fair?

The Art Newspaper Weekly

47:45 min | 8 months ago

Does Los Angeles want a big art fair?

"The newspaper put coasties brought to you. In Association with bonhams auction is in seventeen ninety three to find out. More VISIT BOMBS DOT com. Hello and welcome to the art. Newspaper puck cursed. I'm Ben Luke. Thanks for listening this week. We're focusing on events on both coasts of the US freeze Los Angeles and a show in New York of art from the Hill region in the southern Sahara for for that. Just a reminder that you can sign up for free daily newsletter for all the latest news go to the newspaper Dot Com. And you'll find the knees link at the top right of the page. It's the second edition of freeze Los Angeles which the company Endeavor Freezes. Relatively new owner is hoping will consolidate the fares presence in its home city. But what does the art scene in Los Angeles make of freeze presence? Is it embracing the fair with open arms? What does it pose a threat to an art community that prides itself on its distinctive? Feel to the New York scene. Jerry Finkel Los Angeles correspondent joins me on the line. Now Joy I'd like to begin by asking does L. A. Really want a great big fair and a big market presence in the city. That is such a good question and I do not want to speak on behalf of all of L. A. of course but I can tell you that I feel like opinion on the ground is a little bit mixed that as exciting as it is to have freeze week. You know we have the fair in town so we have. We have a major art fair in the form of freeze but there's also frees week. The talks screenings the galleries putting on their best shows. The artists opening up their studios. Everything that goes along with freeze as exciting as that is. I do think that some people are wary of this becoming another or a more traditional art market capital. So can you say like for people that don't know? La who've never been there does la filled it has a different presence in the American ecosystem ecosystem than your does. Does it prides itself on that difference? Yeah I think so. I mean the shorthand I used to use when I was on staff at the La Times to explain it to editors who didn't follow the art world at all is that New York was so much at the time in this ten years ago. That New York was so much the center of consumption in terms of art but that La was recognized and appreciated and really celebrated as a major center of production that the artists live here. They're major arts was here. I mean we're talking five major art schools that have drawn artist to L. A. for many years and kept artists here because they offered teaching jobs and so does that because of the art school mentality sort of communities that those are schools in Genda de therefore have a certain almost I mean. Obviously artists need to leave. But do you have a sentence of resistance to market forces in La to a certain degree? I think plays out in really interesting ways. Of course you know. Artists need to make a living and I think they appreciate the art market as well. You know they want galleries and they want galleries to show their work and they won't galleries to sell their work so I don't want to pay artists as kind of naive part of the ecosystem but I do think that artists are participating in the market in really interesting ways. I just wrote a story for the New York. Times ON ARTIST RUN GALLERIES FOR EXAMPLE. Which have a really long rich tradition. In Los Angeles that E Fowler for example is an artist who started her own space. Co founded a space called artists curated projects and. She said that one of the reasons maybe the reason she founded the space was to give artists more agency. That artists aren't just there to produce objects for this market and in her case it was giving herself more agency. She was opening up her own apartment to creating exhibitions for her friends for artists. She really cared about and she let other artists curate. The show so the you can see and the way that artists are doing things in town. I think we saw this with Laura Owens space as well That closed down recently. That artists are opening their own spaces as a way of participating really actively in the market. I'm how do they spacey's operate of a M spacey's that sell work or do they completely avoid being market related? I think they're both You know it's all over the spectrum and But for the New York Times on artist Ron Commercial Galleries in particular. Because I wanted to show that it's even part. It's not just that artist run spaces pop ups here and there garage. Space or apartment galleries. It's not that they're it's not just that they're part of the ecosystem there actually part of the market here that you can. There are over a dozen artist run galleries that are part of the art market and four of them are in freeze this year. Roy Now you've also done this piece really interesting piece which is actually one of the newspapers. Dailies that we're having at freeze La and that's really interesting because you to Hebron nonprofit space in the rise of these sort of grassroots spacey's. Can you tell us more about And a few of those are founded by artists. I was talking about the underground museum which has been phenomenally successful successful. Maybe not financial standards. It's A it's a nonprofit but in terms of bringing out a community and appealing to community and having these great events in what they call the Purple Garden in in their backyard. I'm talking about art and practice. Mark Bradford's nonprofit that is in Lamar Perk and has a social justice component to it The mistake room led by Cesar Garcia. So basically what I realized I. I was absolutely fascinated by this by this topic because I realized that about five years ago. A number of these alternatives basis Were founded or opened in Los Angeles that we have some legacy alternative spaces like lace and then lax art which started in. May Be two thousand and five thousand six an eighteenth street center as well but in addition to the legacy alternative art spaces a whole new generation of of alternative spaces. was founded just about five or six years ago an in the story which you read. Aaron Kristof all the curator at the Hammer Museum says that she thinks a number of these spaces were created in order to promote artists of color. Roy So so is was that absorption that perhaps the more mainstream museums weren't doing enough of that and therefore there was a need for need to Philip Abbas essentially yet. That's the point that she made and I think it's a really interesting point to consider I don't think people thought really consider the role of these spaces together because they're so new But when you look at them yes I think. The underground museum is definitely Has has developed a niche for itself Because the mainstream art museums are not doing that kind of programming. Was there any sense in which they also responding to the mainstream art market because in a way perhaps a false binary but one imagines that in in terms of the ecosystem that we keep talking about on the one hand you have the commercial gallery and then these grassroots species are in a way a sort of diametric opposite to them when you took into these people? Did they talk about the market and how what they're doing relates to yet? I don't know if we were focusing so much on the market and I don't know if I I don't know if I buy the binary feel the space is I was looking at. Are THESE MID SIZED SPACES? That are one step away from being museums. They tend to be Kunsthall. They don't have their own clutch shots But they certainly for another another example of an institution I looked at for the story is the ICS La which has undergone a lot of changes in the last decade because it moved from Santa Monica where it used to be known as the Santa Monica Museum of Art to downtown La. Right across from a Greyhound bus station so you have a very present homeless community and the La has always done these really fascinating so both both Ad. Ics La and in its previous incarnation as the Santa Monica Museum of Art. This institution has has a history of doing really interesting shows that do not follow the art market. That are just a skewed. So I don't think they're opposed to the art market but In many cases they anticipate the market. You know giving McLean Thomas or William Pope L. Major surveys before they became art market darlings. So you know maybe maybe. I'm understanding your point a little bit. Better that yeah. These alternative spaces are trying to make space for artists who are not anointed yet or at all indeed that you mentioned there about the movement of a particular from Santa Monica to downtown. Tell me something about the geography of L. L. A. And how that has shifted we we hear constantly about shift in York from various neighborhoods to another one how how does. La Shifted L. L. A. is so spread out. That's actually one of the really interesting things. I discovered reporting this story for our newspaper on the alternative space. Is the one kind of newsy through line? Is that a number of these? Spaces are reducing the number of exhibitions. They hold each year so instead of four or five. They're looking at three or two and it's because people in Lake can't get out to see all the there also financial reasons. I imagine too but Galleries as well. It's really hard to see all the gallery shows within a six week period so if the galleries could start keeping their shows for eight to ten weeks I would benefit from it personally La is so spread. Out I mean they're so so there's no one center And even when we say downtown we often don't mean one thing some people say downtown and they're talking about the area where houser in Girth has opened some people say downtown and they're talking about where night gallery is located That even the downtown galleries are spread out. And that's not counting all the galleries in Hollywood the gallery still in Culver City and galleries further east one imagines a my my idea of La is the the. The communities are not geographies as much as related to the art colleges that you had groups of artists that emerged from from the arcologies and they have developed particular strands of work. I mean is not completely consistent but it is that still the case. Yeah I mean I certainly see socially. I don't think I see that in terms of the types of work that artists make but I see that socially in that yes there are certain groups of friendships or certain cliques that develop Because of where people went to art school But I think it's actually gotten more complicated than that because a gallery is another form of community right. The the dozen artists who show at a particular gallery get to know each other that way Or last night I went to an opening for Kalita Rowell's who was having her first major show at various small fires and she's a black female artist a painter And Her community showed up. Her community includes Dietrich Bracken's and genevieve Danyard who are both Both artist she knows and dietrich shows with that gallery and introduced her to the gala wrist. her community also includes. Amy Cheryl D- Who flew in from New York for it. So what you're saying is that. La's less definable in terms of groups of artists Certain geographies in other words. There's lots of very individual or two working but actually within a very dynamic seen yet I would love for some artist or sociologist to map out all the connections between among the artist. It used to be that I could see the clicks in terms of the art schools more clearly but I just think that. La has become a more robust and complex place. You were talking earlier on about not getting the tone to see everything as with London. Freeze week now in. La has dozens and dozens of shows opening. Can you just give a flavor of some of the things that you're most excited about? Particularly in terms of the public shows the public shows. Yeah well I just. This weekend went to the opening of all of them witches. Which is the biggest group show? I have ever seen Jeffrey deitch Gallery here. I know he's done. Some big group shows in New York but it was curated by Laurie. Simmons artist and Dan Nadel and it's about our artists mainly women artists who make which he works. Who HAVE A witchy sensibility? So it's not literally not artists who identify as witches although there are a couple in the show But but artists who are using occult imagery as metaphors often for body and gender issues And it was really I. One of the things I loved about the show is how intergenerational it was it wasn't just L. A. Artists Artists from all over but you had younger artists. You had kind of hot young thing artists and then you had some second wave feminist artists as well so Israeli. It was really fun that way. It was a great opening. You interviewed Lucci to who todd for the current issue of the newspaper of course and she has a show in a moment right it open last night so I just saw Cheetah Hurtado's show at lack Ma and I had never seen so much for work in one place. I don't think anyone has until the show was it. This is a version of the show that originated at the Serpentine And I was really amazed by how textured some of the work is I just also I feel like it's a sweet spot for me. I love this kind of her early. Surrealist work the work that has the most direct relationship tog- Wolfgang Palin who has her second husband. I just love that stuff of shows at the major spaces you know. I haven't seen the hammer. Museum has a Paul McCarthy drawing show that I haven't seen yet I need to make it over. I think the gallery shows are really where it's out right now and one discovery for me recently. Is the artist. Mio Sheba Roche. Who died last year? They're not not just one but three galleries in La decided to show her work at the same time. And that's upright. Now it's at the pit at night gallery and at Louisiana. Hey Zeus And it's it's installation work That deals with the fragility of the Human Body and interesting ways. I make it sound like Eva Hesse. But it's not but we can't really talk about the LA scene without talking about somebody who's very sad lease is lost to the La seen recently in. That's John Bell sorry the OCC died and John was a giant of a man in physical stature but also a giant of a man in terms of his influence in the La saying can you. Can you say something about about that jury? I'd love to talk about John You know some people ended up calling him a gentle giant which I think is is totally wrong. I mean you're you're right he he. He was very tall then but he was very sharp or rigorous in in ways that were just wonderful A friend of mine artists named Kim shown stat worked for him for many years as his studio manager and she said something that has just resonated with me ever since his death that he knew how to put just the right. Wait on things That means on words on images you know. His his sense of humor I guess I'm talking about his artwork. A little bit just how he managed to kind of rescue conceptual art from its own self. Seriousness own GRAVITAS. But then there's the then there is the contribution he made by being this really generous person on very very active on the scene and that consisted of being a teacher but also extraordinary support for other artists right. Yeah and it was all. It was all of one piece really for him. I mean I've lived here for fifteen years now and for the first ten years. When he was well he was out and about openings he. He showed up for people and as a teacher he. He literally gave artists some of their best ideas in one thousand nine hundred seventy. When he was teaching his famous Post Studio Classic Keller's He had this assignment list. That was over a hundred ideas and some of them seem really quaint. Now like make make a work of art using walkie talkies and I you know. I've always looked at that list and thought you know how generous for him to come up with. All of these ideas share them with his students. Somebody today could make a career out of any one of those ideas and here he is sharing over a hundred with his students I remember when I interviewed on a Leah's Sabban when she had a big show at at spruce mongers here And she was Really good friends with John She told me that he helped her. Come up with the title for one of her series that she was stuck in. He came up with this title threadbare for the series Where she made paint. Look like a canvas perfect title but also just another example of how generous he was in his thinking. And that's not always the case. Is it because for you often t great teachers unnecessarily great artists and with John? He you know he had major retrospectives actually towards the end of his life for instance the one that was at tate modern no began in in the US and so in a way. He's quite rare in the sense that he both managed to achieve great fame and continue to teach and continue to have that kind of community influence. If you look absolutely and I also love. You can go back through his work. The artwork that he put into the galleries and you can see him. Think about teaching. You know he has his early video series where he has like. It's like teaching a plant the alphabet he was interested in teaching he was interested in communication. He's one of our great great artists of language. And particularly when you say when you talk about language well actually. There's two things I think of one is him singing. So lewitt's instructions on the one hand in a video but also the text paintings which were normally influential. Exactly exactly I mean. I think he's right up there with like Lawrence Weiner in terms of how he uses words to open up. The imagination is indeed a great loss. Joey thanks so much for coming on today and for telling us about La and enjoy the rest of the weekend freeze. I was happy to do it then and I will enjoy the week freeze. Los Angeles is held a paramount pictures studios in Hollywood and the project. Section is staged on a New York City films that at the studios the Books Co curated by Tompkins reverse and our deputy art market editor Margaret. Carrigan spoke to her on the set. So Pilar last year the back lot projects were maybe one of the more popular areas of the fair. It's a really interesting set. Up Real utilizes the paramount studio. And I'm unique way there's also plenty of like area to hang out you know there's a food court back here Can you kind of set the stage for our listeners? About what they what the lot brings and how you kind of. Try and plan for presenting work here. Yes I first of all I have to say that this is a really unique thing in the context of art fairs. There's a lot of I take place around the world. Pres is one of the most renowned fairs internationally but by bringing it to Los Angeles and choosing to do it at paramount. It just provides this really unique opportunity for a new context to present contemporary art projects in and of itself presenting art work. The back lot is a little bit like trying to sue site public artworks. Because you have to take certain things into account In terms of you know the elements and And how things can physically be installed here. What kind of media? You can percents But this is so different and unique as well because you have an active studio lot and it looks like New York or Chicago. This is This is a space that already has a visual read to it that has its own history and its own particular connotations and so that becomes kind of a set of parameters around which you have to develop the project. Some of the projects are staged within the specific buildings. That are on the back. Lot others are more strategically placed around the back. Lot itself in our side and others are like onsite performances. How do you plan all of those? And what are some of the specific logistics? You have to take into account. Well I mean we've got We had a number of interesting proposals. That were forged by galleries. We started with that in terms of departure point and trying to see what kind of narratives that we could call out of of of the works to to bring them together We from there began thinking about other artists that we wanted to engage some of which work with galleries that are presenting in the main fair and others. That don't and so that became an an interesting and unique Way Of beginning to organize and beginning to lay the groundwork for the plan You know moving beyond that you have to recognize that this is so unlike doing an exhibition in a museum or gallery or White Cube space where you have control over display and here we have to kind of think about all these things as they develop and and there are certain things that you have to troubleshoot that you wouldn't necessarily have predicted like a slopes on the ground or or you know you're planning for your planning. What kind of work can be shown in an interior space? But knowing that it's not watertight and in case it rains it could be completely drenched so you have to just kind of think through that and that in and of itself informed decisions about a diversity of media the back lot also has a lot of other things going on as you mentioned. You've got the food court if you will Other other organizations organizations are being presented as well and it's a really dynamic and vibrant setting in which the art is activated across all these different points. Can you talk a little bit? About what kind of art you brought this year and what some of the specific projects are and what kind of La Flavor they lend to. What is a New York backdrop? Well many of the artists do have a connection to la or are based in Los Angeles and others are not other we wanted. Also you know. Create this kind of outward looking conversation about things that might touch back to The specific context of Los Angeles and other things that are more global in focus You know we have an artist from Brazil who is from Hassi. Brazil named Jonathan Genre J. for example that has a wonderful video piece that he filmed on the streets of San Paulo and hissy fit where he asked passersby to open up their wallets and reveal their contents and they kind of slowly open the their bill folds and inside you see all these very personal very private things that actually indicate a lot about the individuals that those wallets belong to and so it's here on the back lot it doesn't half tied to La in any way specifically but it can speak more broadly to these other kinds of issues that the market connects to. And so I think that creates an interesting dialogue. We're also were interested in working with artists from the Americas and that somebody that reconsolidate my co curator and I had been thinking about before for a previous project And didn't have the chance to work with so this is a chance to to present his work here. In the fair another artist that is international that that also gives a historic nod to California is Tanya Khanjani and. She's an artist from Mexico. Who is making a piece? That's based on images that. Dorothy Elaine took of the Japanese Americans in the interment camps specifically in Manson are and and Sunita during World War. Two and her work deals a lot with With labor issues with technologies around textiles. And and so this is a piece that in a way hearkens back to the documentation of Japanese Americans. Most of whom were you know. Many of them were hailing from Los Angeles who were forced into weaving these camouflage nets that would cover military vehicles during the war and so she's recreating these kind of makeshift looms That were that were made Where they were weaving in. That's not that far from here where this happened historically. So she's kind of asking us to look at that history not to forget that passed and then to think about the detention centres for migrants today. thinking about issues of labor around around migrants today and and incarceration So you know. I think that that's a kind of a project that really hits on a lot of levels of things that we were thinking about and then may you may jump from there to other conversations with other artists that we're engaging for projects here. There are a lot of work in the project section. This year that are very political. But there's still a certain amount of playfulness to a lot of it as well. Maybe just by virtue of the fact that it is on a set. We're you know you're not sure what's real and what's not and a couple of the artists as well have really kind of drawn in that. Hollywood history and played with a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about a few of those Yeah I mean. I think there's a kind of messaging that can happen in any one of the works but yet at the same time doesn't have to hit you over the head And I and I think that different artists have different approaches and And it's really about again creating dialogues and and making you think You know the artists been sent Ramos. Who is from Los Angeles deals with archives? It looks at historical representations of Latinos in Mexican Americans and Chicano specifically in In the entertainment industry and so his his project. Is this kind of calling of images over the course of many decades Going back to the nineteen twenty s Some of which pertain to Hollywood. But also how they get circulated and manifested in popular culture. And so within that. You know you you. You're looking at these issues of representation but you might be also looking at an image of the Frito Bandido or Cheech and Chong up in smoke so it kind of conjures a lightheartedness and pokes fun at that as well But then it also makes you really think about stereotypes and and lack of representation But other artists you know Also have a whimsy to the work that that kind of brings you kind of full circle with other art histories in southern California. I'm thinking specifically of of maybe like Sayer Gomez or we'll boone or among Thomson for example. Who have all created these really amazing sculptures? That are sited on the back lot. And you're just kind of thinking about This kind of history of art making that deals with them materiality that kind of specific to technologies that were developed in in in this area in this region and that makes me think about You know the light and space movement and You know artists that were dealing with vacuum formed plastics and all these These great kind of materials that were new at their time and that interplay with technology is either kind of going backwards in time to. I don't know a more direct approach to the media or let me just mention for example you know with with wills piece He has three works in the in the project section. And he's taken these toy kits that were developed in the fifties and very popular in the fifties and sixties model model kits at which in and of themselves may reference Hollywood films from like creature from the black lagoon or Frankenstein. Or any of those kind of Harsh Genre films. But they were then made into like these little metal toy my cats that people could build and then they would paint with their hobby craft paint and he's upscale them and cast them in bronze and removed them from their original sets configurations to create these new types of sculptures. I think the witches sculpture is my absolute favorite. So far that I've seen it's really funny and it just kind of shocks you like. Why is this even here and it makes a lot of questions so great. This isn't really wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you freeze. Los Angeles begins today and is on until Sunday. The sixteenth of February. You can follow our live reporting from fair at the newspaper Dot Com. We'll be looking at a new show at the Metropolitan Museum but I hear review the top stories on our website this week. It's auction week in London and southern be sale on Tuesday night delivered mixed results totaling seventy nine point two million pounds or ninety two point five million pounds fees just above its low estimate as shaw reports banks. He continued his recent art market surge. This time it was his work for to love. Altered version of a vote leave placard from the brexit referendum sold for nine hundred fifty thousand pounds or one point two million with feeds which is more than double its low estimate however the nights most anticipated. Lot David these Californian poor painting the splash failed to live up to its name and instead prompted little more than a ripple it sold without anything resembling a bidding war for twenty one million pounds or twenty three point two million pounds fees just above the twenty million low estimate. Total for Christie's contemporary art sale on Wednesday forty six point eight million pounds or fifty six point. Two million with fees was down around thirty percent on last year and was the auction houses. Lowest Resolve this season in a decade. The French Algerian artist Synapse era says that she will not stand down as the representative of France at the twenty twenty one Venice Biennale of being caught up in an ongoing row over her support for Palestine. As Harris reports the latest development comes after is a group that promotes cultural exchange between France and Israel called on the French Culture Minister Frank. Riester to renounce the dears appointment today and said it was an attempt to silence and infringe on my freedom of expression. Meanwhile Sonia Boyce will make the next worked for the British pavilion at the Venice. Biennale and finally Blain southern is to close its galleries in London Berlin and New York as its CO founder. Harry Blain is unable to secure the galleries future announced Wednesday by loops gallery in London in two thousand ten with CO founder. Graham southern. He's no longer involved in the business. Having split from blame last autumn the knees came after the gallery had been steadily losing artists and staff. British artist McCullough show announced for Instagram on Tuesday that he parted company with the gallery. Jd Chapman simply took to social media in November to say they had left lanes southern and in December also Mer Smith former director of the National Gallery in London and Chief Executive of the Royal Academy left posted a senior director. After just one year. You can read all these stories and more at the art newspaper. Dot Com or an. Is which you can get from the APP store. We'll be back at the met. After this Shackleton's Imperial Transantarctic Exhibition of nine hundred. Forty two thousand seventeen is one of the great feats of human daring and Vanna attempting to sail across the Weddell Sea. The expedition ship endurance became trapped in pack. Ice Eventually disintegrating October. Nineteen fifteen the dramatic escape. The crew is the stuff of legend. He expeditions official photographer. Australian Frank Hurley captured life onboard district in vessel and the ship's final hours and newly discovered rare presentation album photographs of scenes and incidents in connection with the happenings to the Whittlesey party is offered up bombs travel and exploration sale on the twentieth of February as Poland's head of books and Photographs Matthew Haley put it Hurley's images convey the terrible situation in which the men on jury fantasies come to define for us the heroic age of Antarctic exploration at drew to a close the more about this story because it blooms dot com. Welcome back now. The Metropolitan Museum of art in New York has just opened a sweeping exhibition about the region known as the Western Suheil. The vast area on the southern edge of the Sahara that today encompasses Senegal Mali Mauritania and tracing the region's cultural legacy the show features. Some two hundred objects dating from the first millennium through to the late nineteenth century much of the Suhel has been rocked by instability in recent years including devastating droughts and violent attacks by Islamist militants. That's Kenny our senior editor in New York talked with the organizer of the exhibition. The met Curator Elise Alabama about some of the ideas underlying show. At least how did you up with the idea for this exhibition? This is an important topic for the humanities. That's been neglected by art history and four years when we were closing our last major African Art Exhibition Congo Majesty power. I decided that the moment was right to turn our focus to another region of the continent that had a very different history very different relationship with the world at large And I have been following the work of archaeologists Rodrick Macintosh. Who's now at Yale University for some twenty five years and he and I had been in conversation about the fact that This was a timely topic to address Given the importance of the cultural legacy of this region and The security issues that were developing on the ground and so In Two Thousand Sixteen We proposed this project For the museum and It's been a four year a long process of developing it and Bringing it into the public eye does the show have a thesis or an argument and a critical feces for this project is what is the role of figuration and the art of the Suhel This is a region that Today is around ninety five percent Islamic And it has a long history with Islam and yet When we think of art from this particular region we tend to think about figurative wood sculpture. And so I was very interested. In looking at what? The historical precedents are for the classical doggone and Bama sculptures that everybody is more familiar with and to see how deep in to the many layered. History figuration goes. There's been significant pressure in recent years for the Restitution of historical artifacts and objects from African countries. Did that pressure make it difficult to arrange loans of prized objects from the region? Quite the contrary We had Enthusiastic responses from All of the colleagues in across the Western Suhel that we borrowed works from as You. Doubtless know Museum projects were all about relationships and We as an institution That has a long history of organizing exhibitions of African Art Have very deep ties with our colleagues in the region and When we explain to them what the goal of this project was they were very keen to be a part of it and to be partners I would say that the the most complicated part of this was that Most of the institutions that we borrowed from our government institutions and so there were many government ministries that had to finalize the approval of loans so that was a bit of a lengthy process but Then the other complicated dimension to a project like this is The the lack of established networks for packing and shipping arts Back and forth between This region and The US we had actually quite a few Twists and turns In Nizhny Chair of the airport's cargo facility unexpectedly was shut down because of security issues Just as we were supposed to be sending The works that were presenting from share and And it really was A nail biting Experience to try and troubleshoot that situation But miraculously every work that We had hoped to bring over from the region. is now on display in the Special Exhibition Gallery. That were preparing to open in some cases the mechanics of arranging the loans and transporting these masterpieces must have been really tricky I see that there's a three ton. Eighth Century megaliths from car How did you get that? To the United States yes And three tonnes as I know now translates into eight thousand pounds and This stone megaliths from Senegal which was carved out of the laterite soil in the region where it was once part of an outdoor Installation sort of like Stonehenge was something that I very was very keen on having as the point of entry into this exhibition from the moment that I propose this project I really felt that Not only does African art too often get decoupled from a sense of history but also We needed a true landmark To ground all of the great works of art that we were assembling And so We literally had to lift this monument out of its Usual position and front of if Ifan Museum in downtown Dakar Have IT Placed in an enormous crate and shipped by sea It was Over a month Traveling to get to New York and We saw that. The most complicated part of the journey was actually making it out of the loading dock and into the upstairs galleries Navigating The museums arms and armor and medieval galleries but It was an epic undertaking. And I'm an enormous fan of my colleague who's our registrar who orchestrated all of these arrangements. You could say that the region is in some ways crisis own today couldn't to yes what's happening unfolding in this region Is is is very troubling. It's very It's caused for enormous concern. it's a crisis that began in two thousand eleven and has not ameliorated And friends and colleagues in the region Unfortunately don't see Relief in sight other is Growing violence and tension That has been caused by Extremists Who IN THE CASE OF MOLLY? At times have occupied nearly the northern half of Country And I know that in my experience very significant dimension of the for example the Mauleon and the Nigerian economies depended on cultural tourism and the fact that the instability in this region is by necessity leading to less visitation as putting enormous strain on people's livelihoods on and cultural sites Across the region. You also have Islamic militants leading an all out assault. Amal as cultural heritage. Don't you yes. The ICONOCLASM that occurred in a city like Timbuktu was really sobering awakening to the fragility of Cultural Heritage in this region And how vulnerable So many of the storied Unesco World Heritage sites even I'll have been We have as one of our collaborators. The Mama Hydara Library in Timbuktu. Who has lent several of the manuscripts that were taken out of Timbuktu? drawing The period when the al Qaeda affiliates had occupied Timbuktu and were Destroying libraries and other monuments and this crisis is not over All of those materials that were moved to Bamako for safekeeping are still there indefinitely. People do not feel that they can move Precious documents like the ones that we are exhibiting in Suhel in Timbuktu at present. It's still still too tenuous the security situation on the ground. We'll thank you for joining us. Lisa Suhel Art and empires on the shores of Hara is at the Metropolitan Museum of art in New York until the tenth of May. And it's this week you can subscribe to the newspaper at the newspaper. Dot Com fickleness subscribe link left of the homepage. And if you haven't already subscribed to this podcast please do so. And give us a rating or review if you've enjoyed it. The Art newspaper Podcast is produced by Judy. My Housekeeper Amy Thorson and David Clack and David is also the editor. Your newspaper. Podcast is produced by housekeeper. Amy Dourson and David Clack and David is also the editor. Thanks to Margarethen peeler to jury to Nancy Annalisa and thank you for listening. We'll see you next week when we have an interview with the artist. Shirin Neshat by the newspaper. Podcast is brought to you in association with bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit. Bonhams DOT COM.

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David Hockney: exclusive interview with the world's most expensive living artist

The Art Newspaper Weekly

44:47 min | 2 years ago

David Hockney: exclusive interview with the world's most expensive living artist

"Yeah. East coast to you in this OC with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three with expertise in more than sixty categories of collecting, it specialists will connect you with your passion. Find what defines you at Bonhams dot com. Hello. It's the art newspaper. Put gust I'm Ben Luke this week with focusing on the autumn auctions in New York. One of the key moments in the year for the art market later in the podcast. We'll discuss the results so far with Melanie girls a market columnists for the art newspaper and the financial times. But before we talk to Melanie with focusing on David Hockney long before this week. He's nineteen seventy-two painting portrait of an artist pool with two figures on sailing. Christie's postwar and contemporary sale on the fifteenth November was identified as the week's top lot. It's unique in it's one of a series of three meter wide. Double portrays he made in late sixties and also one of his much love swimming pool. Paintings. Eighty million dollars. Sure enough. The painting fetched a record price reliving after in the Christie's auction. I to help me himself. He was in London last week to collect to ward at the Royal Academy for his lifetime contribution to the author printmaking from new aways queens on your art foundation. I went to the to speak to hook me about portrait of the artist about printmaking and a great deal more. Can we talk about you painting portrait of an artist food figures, which is about to come to Washington Christie's, I'm interested in the this extrordinary? Genesis of the painting. The fact that there was. Serendipitous moment we used to photograph two different photographs on the floor of your of your studio, and that suggested a composition for this. Great painting. Well, yes. And I did I started a pain of it. But after a while I thought the angle donate wrong because he couldn't see couldn't actually see this. So this is the standing figure couldn't look. I wanted in show in New York. So I went down to where dishes been photograph. Which was in the south of France. I went back did some drawings and then came by to long. I did the painting in about three weeks, but I was working twelve hours a day on Emily's a three meter wide painting. So that's that's an extraordinary effort to complete the Paintin three weeks on that SCO. Yeah. It was because emission MRs Claus personally. Dagan six months. And did you obviously the same exact skirl as Mr. MS Clark, clarken Percy, and the Henry guilds all of those double portray. And yet it seen in a way visually feels very different. And you're so very interested in this idea of the the figures existing in two very different Spacey's one in the pool and one standing looking. I thought the painting was quite successful. And then we had in the show in New York shoulder. I'm interested in the way that swimming pool was presented to kinds of things to you both kind of ideologue of kind of lifestyle, but also from sort of painting point of view, a real challenge in terms of depicting water. Can you tell me something about well? I always been interested in water glass. I remember, George Herbert's poem. Amoun- mine look on glass on it may stay his eye or if he pleases through it pass and that heaven spy, which is terrific thing about looking on glass and through it. I realized in California throwing pools are a bit light. There's you could look on the surface of the war show. You could look through it. So I mean in California when I arrive I flew there waited till it built in airport before I went to allay, I wouldn't have been in a covered wagon going. But. I began to notice tools, and then it was this problem. I thought I'm so I devised ways to do it. That didn't look like photograph photographs of it. Just a frozen moment. I knew dancing lines words Rosen. And so that's what I did. I only did about twelve who. I mean, I didn't do that many lots of people would have churned out. Always interested in other things as well. Really? Did a lot of people have seen in your pool? Paintings a kind of knowing kind of not too abstract Shen and almost criticism of abstraction. Is that was that in your mind, or is that not historian reading that? Nowadays. I mean, I can see why European needed up starch Chinese on Japanese didn't because they always new obstruction wars. I mean, scholars rock whose obstruction Japanese print obstruction. Well, the reason obstruction was needed in Europe. Think thing was because of the photograph. People saw the photo to. Well, if that's going to be the photograph the photograph needed shadows. Didn't it? Because updates needs shadows. I have pointed out, for instance, and the Musee door say in Paris, which is a museum of the nineteenth century. And when it begins that's lots and lots of Cairo Scurr. But when it ends most of this is gone. Gough Matisse Bonna. But there's no explanation given for this. Well, I know it I know so obstruction was necessary. Great claims were made for it actually in the fifties and sixties, and I thought they'd gone much too much action. So, but I mean, I was influence by those ideas. I mean. Obstruction is. I mean, what would you have otherwise Naturism not good things? But I'm still going on with this now. I mean, I'm still fascinated by. But I can see now ways ahead. I mean, I can't. We're here at the Royal Academy because you being presented with an award for lifetime achievement in printmaking. Can you tell me about what printmaking means to you? How important it's been to your practice. Well, first things I did in prince listened graph which I did the Bradford school evolves. I just printed five or six of them. Then the Royal College of art when they used to give you free hardboard, but I'd run out of pain and how much money so I went in the etching department because they gave the plates away. And so I could count on working on. I did. And. I just did some etchings, and I didn't print many then. I then got a prize for one of them nine teen sixty one on without money wouldn't to New York. She. She. Intern became a subject for whole group of prince. Yes, it did. Because when I was on the Bowery. New saw these homeless people which they weren't in London. And so I thought New York who's more like kogo, slum doom. So I thought of doing of version of it race progress. Mm. I made one. And then the Royal College of art on seeing me doing them, then suggested I could extend it to. Twenty four etchings. I wasn't sure about anyway. And I did sixteen which is twice walked hoga's. Did then I I sold those are so the whole additions. For five thousand pounds must've been extrordinary liberating. We do. Yeah. And then I went to California without money and stage of six months and a lot more painting than. So print making certainly helped me for a long time. And then I did. It's some more prince and California than I did some with Ken Tyler. He's a master printer a great master printer. And then I did I did those pap- pools with him. They weren't technically prints each mom was an individual piece. But we did those and then. Then I made more prints and Jemma ni-. And then I didn't do any of while. Then I started drawing on an I pod. Just send them out of friends. So I did with them. And then eventually we've printed so those I mean one side go on I part. I thought they I was a new medium, really. You draw on glass. With a light background and things and. I I was one of the first people to get Todd in the moment. It was out in California. We got one sent to ten. And I expect to whether it. For six months, and I got raw the good on that. I tried out every brush things on this brushes out. And. Then I realized I could do their rival of spring and twin to Levin on the ipod. And I drew. About ninety hours Schley giving an account of their rival spring. I mean began with the snow on gate then. Oh, great. Then. Where all the blossom things not to for months. Actually, I made about nine. But in the end, we just reduced it to fifty which is in that show, the Riley Kaunda me and then later on we printed those. Yeah. So DC in a way that the surface of an ipad as something akin to apply or a lithographic stone. Not quite because you drawing on it with kala. I'm in. The kala was quite subtle. I would draw on it and then print them. It was the print. I was interested in. So sometimes you might have for greens on the ipod. And you can't quite get them printing. So I would exonerate that. None of the main go back print them nuts. What I felt I to do. I drawn with a computer. Long time before but we'd had to go down to Welsh to do this because the computer was the size of a room or something. I mean now on I I mean. But wine, I drew on it. It was always a little late you draw a line, and then the line would appear. Well, that's not much good for Dr not much. So I I mean, I just do some drawings on it that night abound. The net. It never got good again until. About. I mean, it was after twenty hundred. When I drew. On a tablet than a new to draw looking here jaw that things. I did some portrays on trains, but when I go to night tide. I thought this is really subtle because you can I mean the line appears exactly the same time nuts. Mostly what I've done in prints. But I am planning now to go to Norman day in March and I'm going to do their rival of spring in Normandy next year. Do you anticipate it being significantly different to the royalist bring where you've? First of all, there's a lot more blossom as apple blossom cherry blossom Pablo so. Blocks home Lawsom Hawthorne blossom also, I've just been Norman day. I saw the bio top astray. I think. My do unlike the bio toughest to begin with trees in the winter things. It's a great work. Marvelous work. And I did notice it contained no shadows. So my question for the two story was mended shadow stops in European now. Did you get an answer? No. I mean, it's about fourteen twenty right? We've had today that there's going to be a van Goffin Hockney exhibition account. Let you go that you telling us a bit about that. Well. They always wanted to do on a main day. Help other artists that they'd asked me two years ago. And I couldn't do it then because of other things now that doing it it's opening and February. I mean million run. No much competition. Rarely but. Van golf is a great great page. I mean, he I'm putting out he could see very very clearly very clearly, and he knew we could see clearly and. I think I can see quite clearly know quite live on goal, but van Gough to nev- any friends much, and I think he arranged because that's why and three years he did all our work. I mean, it couldn't have done if too many friends. Is a fascinating artist. I just thread biography of him. It's very very good. But it just tell you g MRIs out. I mean, it makes Audi was rather miserable person. And. Things. But when he was paying djing he wasn't miserable. I mean, he loved painting any could as a say could see very clearly he had ideas about color, space and color sing that Julius. And that still joyous still on. So I agreed to do the show. That amine. Maybe. Okay. I don't know. But anyway, I'm going I think a lot of other people will be going to David me. Thank you so much for joining us. Van Gough is at the Vancouver museum in Amsterdam from the first of March until the twenty of may two hundred nineteen a ready on sale now before we spoke to help me are deputy, art market editor Margaret Carrigan spoke to Lawrence Weschler, the author of true to life twenty five years of conversations with David Hunt me he began by explaining the work significance in terms of hop music specimens with photography. He had done this painting that in nineteen seventy two but in nineteen eighty the. Do and. Peres came to his his studio and said they wanted to do thing about his toddler for. He never thought about this aspect is. But he'd often been taking snaps and so forth as part of his preparations and also just the documentation diary of his life. And so they they looked at all kinds of things and they brought, you know. Watson Watson lots of polaroid film canisters to take Polaroid's the ones that to use take back with them. And then they would work out the curatorial business and one of the ones they chose in particular was a picture of Peter Slesinger day was lever. That had been taken as a study for this painting that we're gonna talk about and around that time he had begun to realize that when he took regular pictures. Distorted everything that a camera as he would later say of is, okay. If you don't like my look at the world from the point of Ville, paralyzed cyclops, I put second. But that's not what the world is like. And specifically it distorts the head or the fee, Biddle, whatever, and he had realized around that time and somebody to that he had to take a series of snaps and then to collage of them to get the the drawing as it were correct. And in this case, it was a picture of Slesinger five pictures of flesh inter standing in the pose that you see in the. In the in the painting. We're talking about today, and it was because he had taken all these Polaroid's that that there were all these polarized left over and he began to collages at that point. And that became I would argue the dividing point life as artist from ever since then in one thousand nine hundred or so he's been thinking about. The significance. The importance of Todd iffy in the problems fee and doing all kinds of hundreds of thousands of photographs as an extended critique of Todd iffy away. So you've kind of touched on touch on it already a little bit about what significant about this particular painting. But let's talk about the theme. What did the portrait represent to him? This is a heart wrenching moment is his life. So I mentioned that ninety eighty is going to be a dividing point of his career such ninety seventy one seventy two. Is where he breaks up with Peter Slesinger who in some ways was the love is life had been a subject of many, many portrait's many things and between the time he first had the idea for this painting and when he finally painted it. He done one version, which wasn't working set inversion, and they broke up. And yet the portrait, and it's a very strange title for painting portrait of an artist. Then what's this Prentice figures or something? Who's the artist exactly in that portrait? And Peter was the muse was the model wasn't the artist that point. That he's the figure standing up looking down. When the first time, perhaps he was the love object. But at this point, including the point when they took the pictures of him in the park in London he had broken up with him, and it's been a shattering catastrophic break up. And. So then who's the figure swimming? Maybe it's David Peters looking down him. But in fact. By graphically. It's David standing outside the pool. Scape of the canvas looking into the catastrophe of this former love interest who's looking down at a swimmer swimmer is either David which case possibly kind of playing the break-up or some other love interests. Which case what is David Lookie this load of what's going on that. That he tried to do at one time. He couldn't do it. He then did it famously just before the show opened in nineteen seventy two them or calorie. But it's just really really load as a painting. So arguably, it's not for nothing. This is the painting that this whole hysteria. Swirling around as we get closer to the option. Let's talk a little bit about the hysteria. Then. It is going for an astronomic price. I wonder what your thoughts on that are and how it fits into hot knees rise in team and his market value in general any work by any artist somewhere between worthless. Anything more specific say about it as comedy. So everything would talking about here at one lane from one comedy. Nothing to take. Seriously. The second way to look at it. It's just the facts of fact, it is how are works late capitalism is hard as investment is all those kinds of things in the particular case of this sale that just happens in this major retrospective of Hockney that went from the Tate to the entrepot could do and then back to the met that really I think pretty much buried the doubts about hopping. I mean, it was a major it was in many ways the best that you can make for his work. And it was all critics by hot. Is not only a of aflutter a painter of the boys was the pleasures which in which by the way, he's much more than to Cosso, although he thinks Picasso lot more than Matiz. But he's not only that. But he's that. But he's also has intellectual half to there something really going onto this career. So we have this is the first big sale of the big piece after that show. So that would explain part of it. And. We can have a discussion about what the function of art is right now, it's a system for laundering money a place for parking acid smoke. Probably most are today's volts in Frankfurt airport. At least like that this piece itself mated like that. So there's all that Thirdly. It's a scandal. I mean, the thought they're saying be suspend it'll be more than that. Into senses. It's it's a scandal in. This is one of the major statements of the seven half of the twentieth century is about to go to somebody's private. Howson disappeared from our. I mean, this is this is a property of humanity. General all art should be. But later this in particular and the more expensive gets the more people spend because that will just be that much more expensive next time and so forth. So they're patting Mirsky any money on it. It. But that it hangs on somebody's, you know. You know? And so we can think about how that person made the money will be that aside how they're tried to launder their the morality of you made that much money. By by being shown have such tastes. They have this on wall. Well. But of the point. What did that timely do in the world? Pump up somebody's image of themselves. What could do with the coq caravan of hundreds? The town you could establish for those people who are fleeing for their lives. You know, what what could that do with in terms of the real concerns? We have right now. Does we as we entertain ourselves to death looking about about prices, art market? Oh, I don't know whether they'll still be a planet here when your generation. Just to be my and to me, it's all those things, you know. You know, it's not about the scandal that I'm fascinated by the history of the artist. I think he's an amazing artist. I think think it's an amazing painting. I think it's. But but it's important not to decide it's important to try keep all the mind. Okay. Thank you so much. This is really interesting time. Lawrence book true to life. Twenty five years of conversations with David Hockney is available from the university of California press price thirty one dollars ninety five in the US twenty five pounds in the UK. We'll be back to the wind a picture of the New York options after this. Constantinos puffiness Boone in eighteen seventy eight is universally acknowledged as the founder of modern Greek painting, creative freedom people. Encourage creek to move away from the academic tradition. And to look at the nation's coach history through modern mines. He's paintings characterized by great spiritual uplift and poetic field. S seeing perfectly Annunciation Greek salad London on the twenty minutes ember among the famous compositions is a mesmerizing work of dazzling virtuosity in time. This elegance wonder that Greek specialist Anastazia Flannigan masterpiece of twentieth century European one of the greatest pictures ever painted by the painting will be on view at Bonhams Nissan street in from this Sunday eighth of November eleven AM to three PM to say on Wednesday. The twenty first to find out more visit bombs dot com. Welcome back. Now. Many of the New York shows have already happened to analyze the results. So far, I'm joined by the newspaper and financial times columnist. Melanie? Mentally speaking where the week began of New York oceans, and that's Christie's impressionist modern silence Sunday night. Yes, they started on Sunday with a salad that she was a bit a bit just to what we saw that impressionist and modern auction and at Sotheby's impressionist on motioned the next night is that some of these very big estimated lots sue a Van Gogh at Christie's. Under most hotly. At the southern as the next night that that didn't find bias, which seemed to be part of a trend for very very high priced works to be less appealing. This time around spent some to about overly punchy estimates. Would you agree with that? She s completely. I mean, I think we have got used to small kit getting up enough in up this auction and anything can happen. It's a year ago that Leonardo da Vinci sold for four hundred and fifty million these same the same equivalent auctions. But actually. The market does seem to have stopped going up and up and up. It's public on as far as it can go at least for the moment. I'm interested in whether the quality of works was factor. I mean, certainly the Van Gogh. It's the corner of God. And there are some butterflies which sort of live in the world. But this is my name is Stella Vang van. But it doesn't look like the kind of lamb that you can imagine collectors jumping over each other desperate to a Koi. I'd like to I'd like to give them I'll get that level of sophistication. But I think I think to send extent, you're right. I think we've come out of trophy hunting market, but they're only so many trophies that you can find and it doesn't matter. How many guarantees and punchy estimates? You offer people sitting member of paintings. But I didn't think look we've seen. We've arguably seen less paintings give a telephone number sums before. I just think the mood is a bit more Novi. Is there any particular reason, you can think of four that nerviness I think for these sales which sort of barometers all bellwethers as we always say of the market in general that quite important key sales that everyone is looking at the coming at a time. The stock market has been very very volatile in the US out to New York a couple of weeks ago, and all that anyone was talking. Talking about the mid Tim elections, and then that's been resolved. But it's sort of hasn't been resolved oil prices one day looking way better Monday. Not I think people just a little bit more aware of the politics around. Let's return to the evening sales. Anything particularly striking in terms of southern impressionist symbol. Hud, guaranteed sale. So I think that they want nervous probably giving in because a lot of that lots had had presold, but it can both Christie's if you take out the buys premiums both of them came in unto estimates. They would compose quite differently. But she they both disappointed. But yes, some high points all those wonderful collection thing, they quoted the triumph of color with some beautiful, Camden, skis terribly. Well. And of Rondo. Powerful greet, the dose of a major record from agreed to this is not this. This is not to dismiss them. I'll get completely some highpoints and the money at Christie's as well. So there was some highpoints. It's just not quite as high as it has been struck by the Monets that the one that you really thought would definitely. Ch- would probably meet its higher estimate or even go above it. Which was the water lilies. She rather modest somewhere as sort of relatively calm and quiet snow scene. Did really well. And that sort of made me think what what do people want from mummy these days, shifting towards a more contemporary kind of minimalist. Crowd for for for a moment. Minimalists crowd. Maybe that goes with a slightly slightly cooler markets. I mean, we saw this with the collection a bit later in the week at Christie's cool American modernism feels a little bit in vogue as well. At the moment. So tell me about that cool American Muslim is quite interesting. I think that Bonnie Ebsworth who was a travel travel on investor and build a back, but he was in courage to buy modern American twentieth century American not because twentieth-century European say pricey new you just saw I think what you saw it still undervalued compared to some of the prices were seeing for more familiar names at auction. So of you have a Hoffa that determined, but some of the lesson noon, I'll just tell Sheila did rather. Well, as well, the hope the hope it was one of the absolute stellar, lots of the week wasn't it was sort of image, which everybody. He knows it's an image, which appears is a painting countless posters, and postcards and chocolate books is did it go above estimate? Would it sit. It's within its estimate. I think this is this is my point really about how we've got used to frothy market because ninety million ninety one million for hopper. I mean, that's a record ever for a painting. But you sit anything within estimate whereas chilly, we've just got used to much gorgeous painting and made a huge price. But you've got used to hundred million being the base level and everything just going high. But I think I think it was right. But it made a serious record. I think his previous record was about forty million dollars. So good good for hopper now, the contemporary sales how they fed compared to the is. Hundred one majors one evening sale sofa. Southern base minutes seems solid is the word a lot of people using look the results this morning. The average seven crisis five million dollars. So I think that's very solid on a couple of lots didn't sow which is fantastic. And you've seen again, you five million sounds like an awful lot of money, but that she compared to them. I'll kits the top into the market recently that is a mid level. And this is what you are seeing you a seeing people looking for value whether finding new so this last night is African American office. Henry tainted very well. Jacob Lawrence amazing piece of some businessmen painted in Tempera just amazing but records for office that that we haven't seen as often at auction. Women are still doing quite well, Georgia kief has done quite well this week. Modern American we've discussed sculptures while another place to look we've had a couple of a few and she hums ups at Christie's did very well. Keith haring Bonham's made quite an unusual sculptor she but may twice its estimate areas that perhaps I think we've got value hunters rather than trophy hunters. At the moment, I'm interested in the fact that collectors now paying attention to African American because museums have been correcting the fact that they had ignored African American for quite some time, quite scandalously. And now, it seems like collectors of following suit. Yes. What comes first whether it's whether it's the market all the museums. But I'm happy to believe, it's the museums. Soul of a nation at Tate, which is now in Brooklyn has made a huge difference as well to the way people look at African American. We saw a record for Kerry James Marshall earlier this year, who's become the highest priced African American artists living African American ever. But there's also some revisionism of artists pops note on with us all have older unjust haven't hit hit the highs yet. And yes, I mean, I think it is overdue it-it's a trend. But if a trend happens to be something that is ease over then great this to me. This is probably the most interesting thing about this sort of modern and contemporary markets right now is the exhaustion of what we might call traditional modernism modernism that's been in museums century now and. And the pursuit both that museums and on the market for alternative modernism. So we've gone geographically further. Afield thankfully at last. We mean being looked at us you say, so this pursuit of value is is about finding value in fields that actually where there's a lot of quality and abundance of quality. And therefore quite a lot of work still available. I agree. It's tricky because if you were a cynic, you would just say it's the market, and it's about supply and we've run we're running out of supply therefore, we need to dig hasn't been dug before, but if that happens to unearth some gems, then I suppose there's an complaining. Although I need to see to the record for an African American autism is considerably higher than the record for living female artist. But this time. But that is interesting, isn't it? Because even though we're talking about these the rise of women in the rise of African American artists on the market. We still look if you look at the sums for white male artist still ridiculously for about a long long way to go. Now, there was some concern because of the relationship between the US and China right now that Asian boys might might not be so present this week. What's happened? That's a good question. Ben, I think that they would maybe not quite as obvious. It wasn't quite as voluminous buying for measure. But then a Richter Anna Amani, both priced in around thirty two million dollars. Looks today to Asia's a couple of the highest prices of the week so far have gone to Asia too. I think there's a huge concern yet. But I think maybe it's relatively slowing down. Interesting you mentioned rish too because he's somebody. He's one of my favorite artists in the world. And I think for lots of people when you see an artist you admire so much suddenly become a market, darling. See people speculating about whether he's markets over or he's bubble has burst. I find it tremendously irksome. The price for his abstract painting has was a good price for by all accounts. He's bubble hasn't burst yet. That seems to be the views of the people that were calling the death of Richter. Nothing maybe not maybe not quite dead. I suppose over the last sort of ten twenty years artists become market, darlings contemporaries, quite well established falling away from the eyes of big collectors. I think they've just probably got as far as they come. I mean, Rick to has said himself recently. I didn't think my work should be the price of a house thirty two million a very nice house. So, you know, I just think they've got as far as they can go as living artists a little bit of sanity is come to the market relatively speaking sanity in the art market, whatever next millenia very much. Thank you very much for having me been. You can read mentally monthly call him in the newspapers printed edition and at the newspaper dot com. And that's all for this week. If you haven't already do subscribe to the podcast, and let us know what you think on Twitter where you can follow us at ten audio. That's at TI audio main Twitter account and Facebook at the newspaper and our Instagram is the art newspaper dot official, thanks to Margarethen Lawrence to Melanie. And of course, today we'd hoped me we'll see you next week when we look at other things some new developments in the Middle East. Podcast is brought to you in association with Bonhams fine. What defines you Bonhams dot com?

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Raphael: as great as Leonardo and Michelangelo?

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:06:01 hr | 4 months ago

Raphael: as great as Leonardo and Michelangelo?

"We cannot is brought to you. In Association Christie's Christie's with leading auction six hundred sixty six private sales an eater. Hello and welcome to the we cannot. I'm Ben League this week. Last able to celebrate one of the Greater Rafael on the five hundred anniversary of his death. Well to to Higo Chapman of the British Museum about Rafael. We look at the increasing interest in mailer. That is sent by post in this lockdown era and the artist Mark Di on takes us to the American Museum of Natural History in the latest in our series lonely works before we go any further a reminder that you can read the newspaper anywhere anytime with our iphone and IPAD APP visit. The APP store searched for the art newspaper. And then you can install the free app if you were a subscriber. All the content is available as part of your subscription now for understandable reasons. We've been rather short of good news recently on the weekend art but we begin this week with the story. That's prompted a lot of joy among art lovers the once in a Lifetime Exhibition of works by Raphael at the scooter. Rear Kitty Nali in Rome. Which only open for three days before being closed due to covid. Nineteen in March will reopen on the second of June and run for three months until the thirtieth of August. The show is the jewel in the crown of the celebrations across Europe and the US marking the five hundredth anniversary of Raphael's death age. Thirty seven famously. If perhaps inaccurately because of exhaustion caused by night of excessive sex with Margarita Lucci or laugharne arena one of his most famous portrayed. The Rome Exhibition begins with Rafael Death. Moves back in time includes works online for fifty two museums and galleries including the Louvre in Paris. The Prada Madrid a National Gallery in London National Gallery of art in Washington. Dc. And the feats he gallery in. Florence which is lent fifty works including paintings drawings and sculptures all. The museums have agreed to leave their works in Rome until the end of August. Cheering -Ly Mattioli from Coney Director of the scooter. Edict clearly said that there's a new sense of community in the museum world. Everyone is feeling the only way to get out of the crisis. Together is to al-roa in the same direction. I spoke to Hugo Chapman. The keeper of prints and drawings at the British Museum and Rafael specialist about the artist fame has somewhat unfairly been eclipsed by Leonardo and his great rival Michelangelo. He go in civilization. Kenneth Clarke says that Raphael was prima harmonize her and that made him less suitable for our current age than other renaissance painters artists. What do you make of that? Is he more suitable for our age? Now Clark have a point. I think Kenneth Clarke definitely had a point in that Rafah's extraordinary meteoric success Does not kind of accord with our sense of of how artistic careers should be the troubled Michelangelo Forever Brooding and falling out with people or the Raleigh consulate tree and mysterious genius of Leonardo. I think hold much more facination than Rafael. Who was born in court and from a very early age understood how courts and powerful men worked and SORTA work system extraordinarily successfully and then it goes died relatively young thirty seven So he didn't have the struggle that we like But having said that I still think the more one knows about Rafael one does realizes is incredible autistic mind the that underlies his amazing success. I think that's right and certainly. That's my impression from everything I read is that is that you know. He's he's one of the great polymath isn't here. I mean we think of Leonardo is a great polymath but reptile himself turned his mind. He's talents to so many different disciplines. He did although having said that. That was rene sauce where there was no training to be laissez an architect you just you just sort of to to stonemasons and and you learn how to do it I mean to some degree. He was less of a polymath in some of his contemporary. Sir I mean. Everybody was less of a polymath. Leonardo of course And he was extremely brilliant architect although very little of his architecture survives he was. He tried his hand. Poetry With I don't think great success because whether that was sort of because Lear Michelangelo was was very good poet But I think above all he was he was a great painter was certainly more than Michelangelo. Who who who did paint Barat kind of grudgingly. He was was always Michelangelos school tour. I think what well Rafael can do in paint. is still one of the most Thrilling things both in oil paint and also in FRESCA. He really is technically absolutely brilliant and concert. Turn his hand to everything and is much more sort of varied in his output. And are there are beautiful landscapes is great portraitist You know big sort of historical dramas and in a way that I think Leonardo and and and Mike Lynch Lendu really can't match. Let's talk a bit about about his origins. As you said he was born. Essentially at his father was a court painter. How much did he learned from his father? How and how quickly did he surpass him? Well of course. His father isn't around for for very long but I mean everything that we know about. Rafal is it. He's a frighteningly quick learner. He absorbed sings at an amazingly rapid rate And I'm sure you know. He took on his father's mantelet a very early age. He he kind of understood what his father's art was about and then very swiftly kind of surpass it and look for other models but I think that court training in beano which was a very sophisticated humanistic court the Rafah's Z's with mixing with a people socially much hira up up the pecking order and his ability to talk to to literary men. All of that came out of his training in being so I think it was a kind of ideal place for a future world beater to be born so he was very lucky in that respect. Obviously not so lucky that his father died and his father to be. Frank wasn't a great a great painter. He's more famous for his his poetic Kind of biographies of of artists of his time. But you know he was a perfectly. Decent Artists who Rafael would have learnt the basics of. But I didn't think Giovanni Santi even his greatest Mara would not put him amongst the Pantheon of great for Nissan's artists and that precociousness referrals was extraordinary because he was a master basically before he was in his twenties. Yes I mean he you know he's he was. I think he you know he's one of those artists who who kind of realized his amazing talented. He had this sort of searching intelligence and desire to move. I mean Beano is anybody who's been there is rather difficult place to get to even now It's not the center of anything and I think. Rafael quickly saw that If he was going to make his way He needed to leave. Be No and And then he spends time in an umbrella him improve GER which is a much bigger place on a place where he can learn more from from From from Pera Gino and others And then you know he then move onto Florence and then to Rome. He's you know he's somebody who's always interested in in looking around and saying what's the most interesting artistic trends and wanting to be there to learn from it. I mean if you Michelangelo and I can't help thinking Michelangelo. On his sort of Mount Olympus cloud wherever grey his go must be laughing himself fit to bus that poor raffles celebrations fifteen. Twenty eight of being completely over turned by Covid Because because Michelangelo Hated Rafeh with a kind of intensity that I think appropriate Jersey even in in the in the next world. Can you explain why because there's obviously complex but why did Michael android hate? Refer so much while it's I think it was based on Michelangelo. Feeding the Rafal had looked at his art and kind of stolen His style you know. He says one of his letters. Everything that Rafal highs he has for me I think is true But Michelangelo kind of addressed sees only his own art there. I mean what's as as you began said what Raff are supremely skilful at is taking taking aspects of of lots of different artists. Molding it into an individual. Very personal style. It's not all for Michelangelo for Michelangelo's particular perspective. That's the way he saw it And yes and Rafeh was tremendously successful. Rafael is ascendant in Rome. The young artists coming to Rome. And in the end. Lear the tenth combat. They're kind of in a war between the two of Florida up for these two artists. And he sends Michelangelo Back to Florence to work MEDICI projects and there is Rafael at a very young age. He is the top artists in Rome which means he's the top artists in Europe so it is an incredible success. You know we. We have very little in terms of documentation to show what. Rafael is doing behind the scenes but once suspects you that he was sort of talking to the right the right cardinal at the right time he was very good at playing politics in a way that. Michelangelo wasn't because for so he says that this is the thing about Rafa referrals. He just seems an almost like a perfect human. In sense of he's got he's got this extraordinary courtly manner you know he's he's an impeccable man. He's incredibly witty. This is good looking. He's he's witty. Yes I remember the other side. I think you can see him and I think one of one of the things that Thome Henry and Caroline Carol Platt Salsa did in the National Gallery show which was involved in was to kind of suggests that actually there's an athlete ruthless side of Rafah. He moves in and he then becomes whether it's in Arruda he sort of moves in as he does in Rome and and sort of becomes the top artists. And I kind of you know very sort of Cuckoo. Like way he's sort of comes in and you think. Oh there's poor Rafael. He's just a little sort of young provincial artists and by God. He's sued he. He's he's he's taken over all the plum commissions and he's forced you out so I mean there is. There is a ruthless as about Rafael. And I think he's the brilliant Rafal is that he sees that in order to succeed in that he has to have a really really productive and brilliant artistic studio behind him and this is the difference between him and Michelangelo. Michelangelo always surrounds himself until right to the end of his life where he changes his spots to a degree. But he's he really is so paranoid he surrounded himself by artistic nonentities because he's so why are they going to steal ideas from him? Rafael is so supremely confident of his own skills. That he hired. He's very very young. Very talented Giulio. Romano Penny Perino Varga Who are really really top rate artisan and have distinguished careers in their own right but as Rafael at the center of the artist's studio in Rome. Who is making them work And produce work in his style and he's amazingly productive whether it's cartoon designed whether it's architecture whether it's tapestries. He's he just sort of covers the whole lot and I think that sort of entrepreneurial spirit of Rafah the idea of sitting at the center of his judo being this sort of chief designer of a variety of different lines Is is very modern and I think Rafael would be. If he was alive today I would be sort of a film director at the same time is he's right here novel etc etc. He just. He was just extraordinarily creatively. Brilliant aunt and sort of understood how production worked Gonna. That's the thing is ultimately he's brilliant. He's what got him all those commissions because if I mean is is utterly extraordinary that he hasn't really done any significant public commission before he took on the standard which are one of the greatest works of all time so it seems to me that yes he could. He could have been as charming as they liked. But if he didn't back it up with this unbelievable brilliance. Then it wouldn't. It wouldn't have mattered. No I think that's very true. I mean I think the problem. Both of Leonardo and of of Michelangelo to an extent is is is the delivery breath. I mean they the ideas. They were as brilliant as as as anyone who's ever been in terms of ideas but often in the in the delivery because both in a sense quite solitary and light to kind of produce their own work Meant that their production was was quite limited That wasn't the case of Rafael. He he he learned to to get a very productive studio Producing work follow following his drawings and drawings was absolutely fundamental to Rafael. I mean and I mean for me. I mean the reason why I'm working in the British Museum. I mean sons bit kind of weird to say but it is because Rafah because when I was at university studying ruffle I find him. This is back to kind of spotty. Nineteen year old Hugo I found RAFFLE IS PAINTED. Really quite difficult to get my head. And I didn't find him very sympathetic. He seemed to perfect to idealized too so rarefied but but when Through the the the call set the then Westfield College and University College we were taken to look at joins. The Menashe met at the ash million Byron suddenly another aspect to Rafael. Came out this extraordinary mind. The way that he's pushing himself through drawing to analyze to understand how the work of Michelangelo and Leonardo much much more sophisticated than him when he comes to Florence. How he uses join to kind of what they're doing and then to kind of absorb it into his own style to me that was just a revelation is suddenly. I could see this amazing mind work. Which anybody looking at a drawing by RAFAEL CONC- Incredible creativity you he. He I mean what the difference is that Rafah then goes onto use those drawings to actually produce work software with my cleanser and Leonardo. They've produced wonderful joins but it doesn't actually materialized into a finish work whereas Rafael is absolutely bent on producing from this drawing. I will then go into painting. I'm going to produce. And that is why he so loved by patrons because on the whole if he said he was going to produce on the view heap actually did produce it So that's that's quite a killer Combo. That's one of the wonderful things isn't it? That for instance they were there countless joins for the dispute to one of the great of course on there in. So you can see these. These great compositions forming in his mind over time. Can't we yeah the the way that I mean if you if as an artist if somebody says to well your subject is is the revelation that God exists in a wafer not doesn't exactly offer itself up as a great. It's a easy subject to to put together and yet somehow Rafael bit by bit put together. This compelling Composition using and to make a lot of bid blokes interesting by grouping them by using steps to vary their heights by using the a semicircle of of celestial figures at the top in a he animates it and and that's entirely he breaks everything down through drawing and we've got a wonderful joining the British Museum of one of those figures in the new and sort thinks that he must have broken those each individual composition down to down to the using a new model to study Study each and every figure in it. I mean it's all based on tremendous meticulous Prepare Studies of which you know near fraction survive but those that do survive as you say are thrilling in seeing that kind of mind work. How do I make these interesting headway? Ferry this group had why make it kind of create a sense of movement and drama which he does despite as I say extraordinarily dry subject matter and theology. How do I make theology interested in a pictorial form? An of course one of the great things about the standards that you we know that he. And he's working there and Michelangelo in the in the Sistine Chapel and he. He doesn't in theory have access. Bramante. The architect has the key. So you have this reptile going into the Sistine Chapel. Looking up and an absorbing as you say. He's a great absorber of influences and he's absorbing Michelangelo's influence night firsthand in the next door commission is always that is sort of an Nikolay. Apocryphal kind of idea. I can well believe it. I in Bramante is is is one of his allies. And I think that's a gain one of you know. That sort of courtly skill is that you get your allies at court to to to To help you and Michelangelo wasn't very good at at get winning people over. I mean you know He. He had great and devoted friends because he you know deep down he was a wonderful human being. But he wasn't sort of courtly in the way the Rafha was and I absolutely I think is totally Believable the idea primanti sneaking him in and him looking up at the Sistine Chapel ceiling the first half and saying my God yes. Artists was change. This is different. This is a new order and immediately reacts in the Scoot of Athens that brooding figure in the front which is unmistakably comes out of having looked at Michelangelo's work so Michelangelo Disquiet about Rafah. That incredible ability just to sort of grab something so quickly and to see what can be done with it. Not In a kind of A mimetic way but in a creative way where can I take that to another stage and push it into another direction? I mean he's he's a terrifying in that respect. I mean it'd be like sort of you know being in a swimming pool with a great white. Shell Avenida you you though. It's a certain point your art is going to be swallowed up and then He's GonNa move faubion beyond what you you thought of of of getting yourself so you know he's he's he's a dangerous character to have around but wonderful to that respect the five hundred anniversary of his death now the celebrations which have been postponed but wonderfully are now able to resume at least in part and perhaps the smaller audience and were you able to get to Rome before the skewed arrear closed or always something that you're hoping to do I'd love to go. I mean sadly I've I've looked the show through the you know an excellent Sort of digital tour of it And I've been thinking about this idea which took to kind of reverse. Rafah's life so you begin with his death and so the work backwards which is a sort of interesting approach. I'm not sure that I necessarily think it's a success but I haven't. I haven't seen the share a narrow overseas the wonderful theatrical moment of seeing that the tomb men in the Pantheon recreated in exhibition as it was Back in the fifteen twenty s which would be wonderful. So I'd love to sit but the And I hope people do six is obviously going to be a certainly is an amazing Group of of Rafah's work including many wonderful drawings. One of the things that hits home about that video which I to who've washed is it does it does reveal. The referee was absolutely at the peak of his powers when he died quite young. Not Quite thirty seven. So can you explain of where he was at that point? Wh what in in theory future ahead of him look like that point. Well I mean it's very interesting when you look at his last painting the transfiguration in the Nevada Museum and and you see the way that he sort of welded together aspects of Leonardo's sort of ten abreast style with the kind of grandeur of of Michelangelo's figurative language where he would have gone from them and it's a kind of Unites kind of the one of the great waters of about history Whether in a way he was moving towards the excesses that would later we would later. Define A as mannerism You know I think it's very difficult to know where he would gone in the respect that he's he's always ahead of us He was always innovative. I think anything that we can be certain obvious. He wouldn't have remained the same In terms of his position in was appointed as architect of Saint Peter's he's in charge of surveying the ancient city of Rome. He's winning all the plum commissions in Rome so as you say. He's at the pinnacle and he must be under huge strain in terms of Productivity I he you know. He was aware That being the chief the chief artists in Rome Was positioned that everybody else wanted. I mean of course I was going to be the Saka Room so And in fifteen twenty seven which then dissolves room forbid but I dare say graph I would have found another court to to look after him but yeah I mean to be at the pinnacle means that you have to be producing so I mean I I dare say exemption played his part quite about from you know the story of Laugharne arena exhausting him sexually but I think a lot of speeches rung because everybody wanted him. He's the hottest artist in Europe and every crowned head from the King of France etc. Wanted a work by Rafael. And and you know he was. He wanted of course to to send his art round the known world to say he was keen to do that. so yeah. I think exertion muscle play the part in his demise. It took about his legacy then. Because it's quite curious. I began with that quote from Clark. Come him to keep him not quite fitting the Twentieth Century. A but he they're happy moments in history where. Rafael walls seen as the summit of artists. And Yeah I mean for longer than any other artists. I think can you. Can you explain this? Posthumous SORT OF LEGACY. Rafael is is where academic art Comes OUT OF. He was he was sort of the model for every French. German and any any European painter. you you spend your time Looking at raffles work. Either in in through prints and printmaking was incredibly important. Because that was another side of Rafael is that he saw that. Unlike Michelangelo who shunned any print maker M- Rafeh was covering off to see the making a way of getting his ideas I to the wider world so he works in close collaboration with Ma Continue Romande and so Rafah's what becomes the model by which every art art academy in Europe is is is is formed that that is what that was the cannon There were other ought to but you only have to look at. Let's say to say an artist like poussin say he's an attitude had absorbed Rafael to an extraordinary extent. Libra In a later on So Raphael is yeah. I mean despite a quite short critics say much Rafael That I think You know he kind of provides a kind of a good in a breadth of breadth of art in order for you to copy but as a portraitist all as a grant history which of course was what European artists. That was sort of the pinnacle of what you did The historical painting and Rafael of course was extraordinarily good at that and and had provided the kind of the kind of the manual. How To do it? So do you think there's any chance to keep co quoting Kenneth Club or another thing on a great got ahead closure way look he makes the point about sensibility and then he says. Also the no one's gonNA write a bestseller about and I think there's an element of that isn't they? I mean isn't that much intrigue around the man and and therefore Leonardo Michelangelo in their kind of mysterious nece somehow All are out are attractive. Popular figures in a way. That Rafael seem somehow slightly remote. Is that fair? Well I think it's it's partly a degrade of the accident of history. I mean we have a huge archive of letters the Michelangelo Leftist because being a good kind of bourgeois Florentine in a he kept. He kept his letters. And they're all carefully stored away in the family archives so we we really kind of have a a very strong sense of of Michelangelo's voice sometimes rather difficult voice and you know we to the extent. We sort of know what was in his bank accounts. Leonardo is shadowy because you he left his notebooks so we have a lot of information. In that regard. There are two letters by Rafael. So you know understanding quite his personality and and where he was coming from is much more difficult as much more a matter of sort of projection really So I think that is a basic problem about him. We just don't His voice What his personality we have to rely on? Vizor and others and you know sorry. Never met Rafal he met people who had met in that you know he's a one remove So I think he kind of fun. She's less information for the bag of I mean it's it's his work that it is there any way that we can kind of understand him But that obviously is a bit short of human drama Even the story about laugharne arenas in. May or may not be true and the idea that sort of Prayer AG- Artis was one that had say Picasso's seized on with with With great enjoyment Because it goes Rafeh was sort of gave license for all artists Thereafter that it was okay to do to sleep with all models overseas something. The Gus was tremendously on. I keano take up And so in the three four. Seven series other is wonderful group of Within that of of of Raphael and Laugharne arena kind of Screwing with with gay abandon and Julius a second as a kind of wha ristic cascais like figure sort of Unable to kind of enjoy it. But enjoying sex vicariously and anger for example that paint Rafael and his mistress. I think kind of Raffles. Sex Life has always been a source of much Interest all artists taste not still as I say rallies nauseous. I never tire again. There's always something new and exciting advice. Work You can see the video of the Rafael. Show on the scooter. Del Killing Youtube Channel and when the British Museum opens again which we hope will be in early July a small exhibition Rafael in twenty twenty emerging artists respond feature six altis responses to a Rafael drawing featuring five studies of new male torsos based on the great drawing by Michelangelo Battle of Cassino. But later we'll hear about mail art and mark. Diane tells us about his passion for the American Museum of Natural History but I review of the top stories. On the newspaper's website. This week. There was contrasting news from two of the world's leading museums this week. The Rights Museum in Amsterdam will reopen to the public on the first of June. And it's Caravaggio Bernini show originally scheduled close on the seventh of June will ref. Al Show in Rome be extended in this case to the thirteenth of September and only been open for four weeks before the lockdown began but in New York as Nancy. Kenny tells us the Metropolitan Museum of art has delayed its reopening from the first of July until mid August or pats. A few weeks later museum says that it's postponed opening is being planned in tandem with New York. State's cautious face plan for reopening the city as corona virus cases retreat. Now News of an even longer delay the next Venice Biennale for art will now take place a year later than originally planned Gareth Harris reports. This follows the Biennale decision postponement the architecture and Ali which was due to this year until may twenty twenty one the art biennale is being by the Italian curator Cecilia Alimony and will now take place between the twenty third of April and the twenty seventh of November twenty twenty two and finally the UK government this week appointed new Mendosa as its commissioner cultural recovery and renew Muslim Bailey. Rates Mendoza will be responsible for providing department for Digital Culture Media and sport or dcms when expert an independent voice to deal with the coronavirus pandemic impact on the outs. You can reduce these stores and more at the art newspaper. Dot Com or on the APP. We're back after this weekend. Out is brought to you. In Association with Christie's as collectors and art lovers increasing to browse 'em purchase online Christie's continues to expand his own line only auction calendar with new salad offerings now. I've been forbidding. Veon rose focuses on exuberant landscapes and colorful portrait transporters to Rosie time highlights include works by Durga road and fantasy maps because of the go through abstraction fantastical including by Casson Miro Giacometti and marine refresh. Schedule Compliments Christie's private SAM's bid Bayat at anytime anywhere find out more Christie's DOT com. Welcome back now. Since the nineteen sixties artists from around the world to the post as an alternative means of producing and distributing art with letters postcards and packages as well as material that tested the limits. Of what could be posted like bricks with stamps on them. So called male artists. Most famously ray. Johnson circumvented traditional elite modes of display and distribution like museums and commercial galleries in favor of the more accessible democratic space of them post using the commonness and interconnectedness of postal networks. They explored the inequities of the global art market national regulations regarding culture and communications across various political circumstances from McCarthy era America to Communist Poland and Augusta Pinochet's Chile in many ways the philosophies behind Mayola preceded the nascent nettle movement of the nineteen ninety s has mentioned in the knees minutes on last week's podcast as covid nineteen close physical art. Spacey's some artists engaged with the history of mail art sharing physical art works and creating connections even in isolation especially in the US. This has become months again. A radical act. It's the nationalized. Postal Service has become a target of the trump administration over recent months as it looks to cut federal costs. Miriam Keenly Assistant Professor of history at the University of Kentucky Curator. Pushing the envelope. A long term exhibition now digitized and available to view online at this Sonian Archives of American art is a male Scala. Our senior editor. In New York Margaret Carrigan spoke to her about the various histories of postal works and there are of medium. That's now on the way. The Postal Service has been instrument of largely leftist political discourse as well as at its core a social utility as since its inception. So what was the genesis of mail art back in the nineteen sixties and what was radical about the ideas of its practitioners. People like Ray Johnson. Who SPENT A long time studying? Yeah so I think on the one hand. The Postal Service is a liberal institution defined by like equal access to communication and the ability to connect with people and Organiz across long distances for example the argument for the implementation of inexpensive postage like in the mid nineteenth century. Like the beginning of the modern post was that it would foster mass literacy through Eagle Communication. But I think from its core. There's also this other side to it that I've explored my research Johnson where the postal service particularly may be postal inspection also historically been used to kind of monitor and control communications so for example in the US there the comstock that were used to kind of regulate gender and sexuality from the Mid Nineteenth Century into the twentieth century. So I think the mail. There's this potential for both democratization. In control and that male artists engaged with both facets in interesting ways so ray Johnson who is this key initiator of the mail art movement in the One thousand nine hundred sixty S. He was inspired by males accessibility in making mail art. So unlike this exclusive realm of the art world where art is sold her large sums of money to largely wealthy elite clientele and galleries He was interested how you could share our through the mail For just the price of a postage stamp and but on the other hand I think Johnson also saw the postal system Had some exclusionary practices so for example. He often circulated homoerotic collages at a time in which that was actually illegal under the con- sock laws and he played with modes of address like The ways in which he addressed recipients Playing kind of with surnames and such so how surnames maybe CODA fi gender and he would kind of play with that so I think like the ways in which male artists Johnson used the post. Kind of engage. It's accessibility but also these elements where it's a system kind of were there can be some control to That maybe limits it's democratizing aspect so okay so there was a subversiveness to the kind of democratization that the male offered which I think is really interesting but this also has tendrils that go far beyond just the US Postal Service and we've also seen artists using postal services in Latin America and Eastern Europe as kinds of forces of social changes. Well how did those movements maybe mirror the movements in the US at and how do they differ? So I think the International Mail Art Movement shares this interest in circumventing elite modes of display like galleries and museums and using the postal system to send and receive are globally. But as you're suggesting you know. The conditions of sending receiving mail art really different depending upon the social and cultural context so for example as mail art was becoming this global phenomenon in the nineteen seventies and eighties. Many Latin American countries like Chile and Argentina were ruled by us-backed military dictatorships and in addition to already having kind of a smaller art infrastructure of galleries museums are that was shown in public. CouldN'T REALLY DISSENT AGAINST GOVERNMENT POLICY. And so the mail became kind of an alternative space like an alternative Public space where artists like Eduardo Vigo and Graciela Gutierrez marks and Guillermo Deisler could make art that actually opposed the violent dictatorship that they were living under and I think similarly in Eastern Europe particularly in the Soviet Union was really tightly. Controlled by the state and mailer was was kind of an alternative means of making art. That was different than official art Kind of like unofficial an unofficial art practice but even the mail was actually heavily monitored and so artists had to be really savvy to kind of circumvent the sensors for example an artists like Pablo Perez. Who was a prominent Polish male artists? He's materials that were really hard to open. So you would make his own handmade paper and so so his mailing shut with the hopes that the sensors would find it too difficult to bother to open and so he could have these mailings That would connect him to artistic circles outside of Poland during this period where it was really hard to kind of make those connections and And he came up with Savvy ways of doing that so I think. Depending upon the particular political context artists came up with really different tactics to make mail art and connect with artists so there were lots of artists in eastern Europe who shared mail art with artists in Latin America and artisan Latin America sharing with artists in the US. I would say As a kind of general statement that maybe the mail art in Latin America and Eastern Europe was more clearly like politicized an oppositional Than a lot of the mail art in the US. I've found that Mallard in the oftentimes Assertive rebuking the gallery system. And sometimes it was a you know making larger political statements like I suggested with Johnson about the comstock laws but I think Because of the kind of oppressive conditions that mail art was being made in Latin America and Eastern Europe It was really very much on organized around political dissent. I think what's really interesting in what you're saying about these. Latin American and Eastern European context is the sense of finding ways to connect in otherwise adverse circumstances. And of course I'M NOT LIKENING. The pandemic to a dictatorship but we are finding ourselves in a moment of adversity of a global sort right now and and really looking for ways to connect which I think to. My mind explains a lot of why? We're seeing kind of resurgence in interest in and practice of mail art over the past couple of months and I just wanted to know what your opinion of that is is that do you think it's fueled by the pandemic or has this been a resurgence that you think has been going on for a while. Yeah I mean I think because it's I think it's always been there but Like art male artists have continued making work for many decades. But I think because it's a kind of work that can be shared At a distance like a head of social distance it's built into it It's having a kind of renaissance. So I I think you know mail. Art is a way to experience art in person when galleries and museums are closed. And it's also a way to experience culture. That's not mediated by screens. So I think a lot of people who are experiencing During the pandemic screen fatigue while doing all of their working and socializing remotely and that mail art kind of offers this alternative way of connecting with others so many many male artists really underscore like the tax laws and materiality of the male and actually in this exhibition at the Smithsonian Archives of American. Art that a curated that is now digitized exhibition one section was dedicated to the materiality of the male so this artists. Leonora tawny would send these envelopes dedicated To her partner. Marianne Charlton that had feathers on the envelopes. And inside on the mailers and it's amazing that they actually were process through the mail and still held these beautiful patterns of feathers on the outside of the envelopes. But I think The these really this tactile form of communication is something we have a real desire for right now. there's something really personal and intimate about getting something in the mail that Maybe breaks up your day of you know working on the computer. Or what have you? So I think that that's also part of it is really this like material aspect to it. In addition to the fact that it can be sherrod over social distance. Absolutely and I'm shocked that something with feathers on it would would arrive taxed. Those days are fired off. My letters arrival crumpled up shoved in my mailbox. I know I know it's it's it's really incredible. I mean the post office it has it processes so much mail every day. It's kind of like a miracle that so many things get to US intact and I also think about you know in the mail art movement It's testing. What could be mailed was kind of something that a lot of male are descend joy? You know putting stamps on a brick or an seeing if it got through all in one piece right or I think printed matter has a mail art project right now and they said somebody mailed the whole telephone so like an old fashioned telephone and so I think like actually posting things that that you're seeing like how they get through the mail and it is kind of a miracle that they arrive. They arrive in one piece. Especially if there's something delicate like that With the with the feathers. But that's a really interesting point about the kind of pressure you can put on the the. Us At this point because it now has a different kind of political pressure on it And you know while at the same time that this exhibition at the Archives of American art that you've worked on has been digitized. Current presidential administration is threatening to defend the postal service. And Take it private at saying that you just kind of it's no longer. It's a financial drain. People are using so many more technologically advanced forms of communication. Anyway so I think a larger question for more philosophically at this point is what's at stake if we were to privatize something like the US. Ps and and what can we learn about the value of the postal service from the histories presented in the exhibition? That you worked done. Yeah I I'm really concerned about these attempts to defendant privatize the post office to I mean It's an institution that ensures affordable postage and delivery for all people even those living in really remote parts of the country and I really think it's an engine for creativity and democracy and I think that's one of the things that the exhibition shows. I mean I I worry that with this new postmaster general who actually comes from the corporate sector and as a major trump campaign donor I worry that how institutions going to be handled and that if we defend the post like how will everyone you know affordably get CDC guidelines or check sewer or even vote by mail which looks like it may be a real possibility so I think the show like really underscores the importance of universal delivery like that everyone has access to communication and to culture and even and to the right to descent. So I think it's kind of also a cautionary tale about what happens when the postal system falls into the hands of those who wished to use it to undermine democracy so I think you both see in it how people use the mail all of these incredible creative ways to connect with others and mobilize and make these really touching intimate connections. That maybe aren't possible through a phone call or On a screen. It really underscores It's like a cautionary tale for like how the post office can be used in a way that undermines democracy but also how it is an instrument of democracy and I think like I have faith having studied postal history. I mean it's sort of a beleaguered institution and and and it survived for many decades of these attempted attempts at defunding at and I think you know from. Its many unionized workers who deliver the mail every day to those of us who use it every day like. I don't think it's to go down without a fight. That's how interesting. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak today Mary. Yes thank you Maggie. Every enjoyed talking view and finally this week the latest now seems lonely works in which we look at Artworks Museum to close because of the corona virus the artist mark. Diane has chosen the American Museum of Natural History as a single entity now mark. This is sort of lonely works but in a way you work as always thought in terms of grand installations and innocence. The American Museum of Natural History is like one enormous installations. It's you know it's an extraordinary place and I think visiting the museum which has so many different halls that are made it so many different times. It really is time traveling. So you move from people's idea of nature in the nineteen thirties to their idea of nature in the nineteen fifties to how people imagined it in the nineteen eighty S. Just remarkable how You really see the the values and the material sensibility and And you know construction methods all of that as you move through the space so tell me. When did you first visit that that museum because it's a source of music? I imagining you've visiting as a child. No not at all you know. I grew up in a very blue collar family so we did travel at all. And and my family. We're not the kind of people who would frequent the museums. So the first museum I went to is the new Bedford whaling museum in my home town of New Bedford Massachusetts. But in a way that kind of set the template for me because it's a museum of Natural History Industrial History Social History Vernacular Arts and crafts. That has a great Hudson River school painting collection. So the idea of all of these different things under one roof really started there and for me. That's that's it sort of gave me an idea of. This is what museums could be in. Should be and I still think they could should be so so. I visited I the American Museum of Natural History in New York soon. After moving I moved to New York and maybe eighty two or eighty three and somewhere around maybe eighty four or so. I stumbled into the museum and it was a life changing experience now at that time. You're on the Whitney Independent Study Program in New York. And with that comes a whole series of sociation says a whole generation of artists emerged from that program but Luksa toughness about the the art and maybe a sense of a certain kind of conceptual attitude and I wonder how much of that sort of rubbed off phony but also how much did you to counteract a lot of the kind of forces that were around you at that time. Well in the certainly in the early eighties. There was a great sort of mania for critical theory right and artists young artists who were studying where asked to become you know. Young philosophers were reading things that maybe they hadn't the foundations for so reading derrida and Food Co. and Lucon and searches jumping in your most. Most people who study philosophy. Read those things but they really start at the beginning of Western philosophy traditions and kind of work their way up. We just kind of jumped in. And so I was very steeped in that critical tradition through the Whitney program through the School of Visual Arts. Where studied before and I liked it. I know for me it was. It was really like a assembling a toolbox of really interesting ideas and I was kind of had this toolbox but I just didn't know what to apply these tools to a lot of the art that people were making. You know we're we're around of gender issues and identity issues and these things that weren't really the core of my interest in a sense so it wasn't until I went into the Natural History Museum that I realized like Oh the culture of nature the history of natural history this is. This is what I've been waiting for. This is sort of the territory. I want sink my critical teeth into and I think that you know that critical approach functions best. When it's something that you care a lot about and think a lot about that that's pretty interesting because one of the things. I'm so the conscious of is I would imagine you to been going round the museum and as well as a kind of sense of wonder this extraordinary space finding lots of problems in the presentation in a way being enticed by those problems is that is that fair at. Oh absolutely I mean. The museum has a history and and I'm certainly not the first person to point that out. There's a lot of a lot of people have written about that history and the past. The museum is filled with a lot of villains but also a lot of heroes. So I mean I think it's really it would be a mistake to just think you could throw the whole thing out because it's been so steeped in ideology and problematic ideas. They've also been some some champions of really important ideas like like France Boas and Margaret Mead. And and so many people who were behind the scenes doing scientific work that You know exploring the history art history of our planet and evolution. So I think you know it's it's a schizophrenic place. In more ways than one you know it has its load its history is loaded with some very reprehensible figures but also some incredibly progressive thinkers And you know in the same way that what we see when visit often is is the front of the house which is only a small portion this also the back of the house which is filled with researchers so have this actual practicing science. And you have these sort of didactic exhibitions some of which are out of date but are incredibly instructive because of that. Yeah tell me about lakes. I'm and I'm I'm intrigued to know which of the famous Dioramas and things like that the you particularly enticed by or or os action fact some the less famous elements of the museum. That you that you think of most. I've gone to that museum so many times. I think if I took I love museums. I'm really engaged. I really think that they are transformative. Positive places and and an artist. I'd love to art museums. I love to go to the Metropolitan. Guggenheim the New Museum. Moma Whitney but I probably go to the Natural History Museum in every year more than I go to. All the other museums put together so my experience of Israeli I have a good degree of expertise around it but I also like to experience it as a floor to just kind of walk through and as many times I've been there. I've always discovering something new so I I sort of mander through the museum with my Eyes Open and an I'm constantly finding a hidden corners hadn't seen before exhibits hadn't seen before things that I love that. Go off exhibit but I am really interested in what I consider the most endangered exhibits the ones that are now so old that they are perhaps the scientists no longer accurate perhaps the the perspective of the of the installation is not Up Today and may even be offensive and So I'm always looking at those to really try to understand what it's like to put your head. Put your idea of trying to imagine what someone in one thousand nine hundred. Fifty three is imagining when they're putting this exhibition together and what their idea of nature is When are just so many things that we understand that? Think ABOUT NATURE. Today that weren't available to them also so many things that that are the priorities for them that we don't really consider the priorities anymore. And of course the thing about museums of natural history is there is and we you know in in a twenty first century through twenty century spectacles. We can look back at this as you. Just were there and say you know. Actually there was a misguided run allusion of neutrality. Actually there were all sorts of biopsies and all sorts of Subjectivity involved and of course. Absolutely the core of your own work isn't it? It is but I'm definitely not interested in just wagging my finger people from the past right. That's such an easy thing to do. And and there's nothing at stake to do that so you know I also want to. You know be somehow implicated in a way showing that my own construction in my own views of nature somehow filtered through all this which Which also makes me a little bit angry. In some cases you know this of assumptions that are instilled in my own identity as a person That that are very problematic That it takes a lifetime to sort of decode and react against an ends in some way. That's big part of what the work is about. But at the same time I think it's it's important to try to put those periods in the perspective of the moment and try to understand them sincerely and not just a dismiss them as misguided Really tried to understand where they fit into this History OF IDEAS. That have led us to this Weird suicidal relationship to the natural world. That we have and of course. That's another thing that when you go to a natural history museum today very often. Climate Change is at the forefront of their thinking and of course again. That's another wonderful thing about having a natural history museum which have got long histories. Is that you see that relationship with climate shift over time. Don't he? Yeah I mean. It's so dramatic to imagine that you know in a museum which has so many Exhibitions that are that are quite old. You know going back to the nineteen thirties. Still existing really can track the notion of of nature of something that we have to be protected from to the notion of nature. Something we have to protect Can really see that as you go from one room to the other. You mean there's a sorta threatening not to some of those For instance where you have the squid and the way those kind of Dramatic Installations Yeah. I mean of course they often do you know the the they are biased to drama in some ways the Diorama is a very dramatic form and so there are a lot of things. You know the DIORAMAS goal. This is trying to tell as much of the story in a single representation so Which aspects of the story they pick are often the most dramatic once and often Animals have put together into family groups. That normally wouldn't be in family groups and things like that so Yeah and you can see the the real emphasis in some cases on on ferocity right on on the wildness of wild animals. So tell me about this display mechanisms that you have used in your own words which have been based exactly on these kind of displays and and I'm intrigued also about to what extent you attracted in in terms of the natural history museums by the fact that there isn't the very often aunt precious objects as such but not necessarily that a worth enormous amounts of money and therefore you know one of the things that you have done is to bring into the gallery space at lack of preciousness about the very objects that we're looking at and fascinated by. I'm intrigued by that. How much the Natural History Museum mortar was kind of influence? That sort of skewed and interesting relationship. What has with valley yeah. It's it's interesting because when you say that There is a big difference between say mostly European museums of natural history in which they really talk about nature wild places wild animals well things while plants and in the American tradition of natural history very often we include cultural history and ethnography is under the umbrella of natural history so when we go to the Natural History New York. We see things like The Hall of Asian Peoples of African peoples the hall of of various native American groups. And so in some sense we do have a lot of the things that are kind of valuable in that way in the hall of Oceanic People. You'll see very much the same kinds of objects you would see on the other side of Central Park in the Metropolitan Museum of art. So there's always been a very strange and interesting tension and something I think is really important to unravel looking at How American Museum of Natural History Frame Natural History including cultural anthropology which is very different from European museums? So and I think that's an aspect of that that is a progressive aspect of that that That is really pernicious but I think one of the things that I learned a lot from natural history displays of course art techniques and technologies. Like the Diorama right. So I've I've often made dioramas like the rams. I wish I saw the Natural History Museum which really depict the everyday animals that we come across so you know in London that would be a feral foxes and pigeons and rats and mice and starlings and house sparrows. These kind of things that live Very closely to us. So I've made a handful of Dioramas that that really show these animals that have been been skillful at adapting to the world. Where making for them Thank joining us by pleasure. Thank you until reopens. You can take a virtual tour at the American Museum of Natural History at Am H. Dot Org For this week subscribe newspaper. Your newspaper Dot Com subscribe link at the top left of the homepage amply. Subscribe to this. Podcast ready to give us a rating view. Enjoy it looks. I find us on twitter at facebook. Instagram telegram telegrams boy code the top newsletters which you can subscribe at the paper Colt Producers of week arguing houseguest. Amy Dawson clack. The editing thanks to Hugo to Miriam Antonoff since I listened We cannot Christie's visit Christie's to come to find out more about the wealth leading auction house in seventeen sixty six private sales online anytime.

Rafael Lear Michelangelo Rafah Eastern Europe Leonardo Michelangelo Rome US Florence American Museum of Natural His British Museum New York Laugharne arena Rome Raphael Postal Service Ray Johnson Sistine Chapel Rafael Death the art newspaper
Turner Prize shocker: what next? Plus, Teresita Fernndez in Miami

The Art Newspaper Weekly

51:26 min | 10 months ago

Turner Prize shocker: what next? Plus, Teresita Fernndez in Miami

"The newspaper put coasties brought to you in association with bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bottoms dot com. Hello and welcome to the art newspaper. Cursed I'm Ben. Luke thanks thanks for joining us a bit later. We'll hear from the artists Tarazi to Fernandez. Who Show are the Perez Art Museum in Miami is one of the highlights? The huge number of exhibitions and events programmed to coincide with this is art Basel in Miami Beach Art Fan but I the turn of price on Monday. It was announced that this is shortlisted artists. Lawrence Abba Hamden Helen Kabq Oscar Morillo. Anti Shawny had requested that the jewelry consider awarding the price to them as a collective the jury unanimously decided to honor that request and so for the first time in its thirty five year history. The prize was awarded not one winner but to all four shortlisted artists his letter that the artists wrote to the jury after after a number of discussions. We've come to a collective view that we'd like to be considered together for this year's award we therefore writing to request that you as a jury might consider awarding the prize to the four of us collectively collectively and not to any of US individually. We hope that you will both understand an honor the position we arrived at this year. You selected a group of artists to perhaps more than ever before in the prices history or engaged in forms of social or participatory practice. Most specifically each of us makes art about social and political issues and context. We believe of great the importance and urgency the politics deal with differ greatly and for us. It would feel problematic if they were pitted against each other. With the implication that one was more important significant Komo worthy of attention than the others. None of us had met each other prior to the Turner Prize however on our initial meeting in Margate we quickly realized the underlying shared ethos that runs across so otherwise very different practices at this time of political crisis in Britain much of the world when they've already signed much that divides an isolates people in communities. We feel strongly motivated to use the occasion of the prize to make collective statement in the name of commonality multiplicity and solidarity in art as in society in interview since being awarded the prize. The artistic confirmed that they had planned this intervention almost as soon as they met and it was presented to the tate trustees before being formally presented to the jury and indeed. They were hints at their plans in interviews. We did with scam. Rio and Helen. Camac on the art newspaper cost early this year. Let's say what they say. I his Oscar. Your the term prices is complicated situation. I am obviously clear on it. Initially by the jury who took time looking at my work unto warranted to grant it it being to be part of these these selection of of foreign credible artists. And I think that already is AH price. I actually have zero k beyond now doing a brilliant show contemporary and his Helen's it a few weeks later the other three artists and I have been having discussions about how important it is that we consider the idea of a group. Show the idea that there's something collegiate that's happening. We've been talking about the relationships. CBS between our work. Because fundamentally the idea that we're in competition which with each other for a prize is really because there aren't enough opportunities for the autism in the UK and that's the that's the thing that's really frustrating about it is that we shouldn't be in competition. No artists should have to be in competition with each other because we work in very different ways and actually there should be enough space for everybody to be working and thinking and progressing and having conversations in a way that it's not about trying to be the best or trying to behead or seen more fully than the next person but unfortunately when opportunities opportunities are quite lacking. That's what happens. And so the way that we've been thinking about and talking about it is is is trying to somehow interrupt the under in a different way now at the ceremony itself at ten contemporary in Margate the political background to the Artis request was fleshed. Out even more in Helen chemic- speech. Here's an excerpt from that speech. We believe when grouped together such practices become incompatible with the competition format whose tendency is to divide and individualized the contention issues in our work would undermine our individual artistic efforts to show a world entangled the issues we still with our as inseparable as this climate chaos is from capitalism. We each seek to use art to push the edges of issues. Mapping the bleed of one into another across time across sexualities. He's across the realm of the real and the imagined and through walls and borders. The Turner Prize is given to a British artist or artist working in Britain this year as it has often done in the past the price sought to expand what it means to be British. We find this significant in an era marked by the rise of the right and then Renewal Fascism in an nearest conservatives hostile environment that has paradoxically made each of us and many of our friends and family again increasingly unwelcome in Britain and and this is supported by an environment of normalized racism and ideologically driven brutality of austerity the privatization of social services and healthcare destruction of education a corrupt media and the prioritization of corporate interests above all else isolation exclusion of the weapons of this hostile environment. And it is the Knicks. We seek to stand against by making the symbolic gesture of cohesion in nine days. We have the chance to turn gesture into action to vote. For the collective benefit of our shed futures none of us had met each other prior to the Turner Prize Nomination Baton Racial Meeting in Margate. We quickly not realize the shared ethos that runs across our otherwise very different practices. So what does this mean for the future of the prize. I'm joined boy. Louisa Buck the Contemporary Contemporary Art correspondent for the newspaper who is a member of the Turner Prize jury in Two Thousand Five Louisa. I'd let each a sort of imagine you're back in two thousand and five when you're on the Turner Prize is jury and you'll sitting in the boardroom looking out over the Thames and incomes somebody from the tight with a letter from the artists requesting rather than giving the price to one of them. You would all four of them. What do you think you damn well gobsmacked and quite flawed because obviously the whole purpose of the turn uh of do slept the shortlist of four to select a winner? But I have to say that I turned down. Judging the Turner Prize twice because the shortlisted artists weren't given any money for the exhibition in any kind of recognition of being on the shortlist. It was only when actually they all got something for being shortlisted. I then loftily agreed to do it. So it fits with my ethos but it would have been very disconcerting. Certainly yes but the pilot prize is punishing for artists and the one past. The Post is not very friendly towards judging many different art forms of aren't thoughts on that able to assess in the same sort of way but to be honest to my mind when I was judging the town of prize it was more important. Mm for me to get a really strong shortlist of four nominees really artists who who'd made interesting valuable contributions over the last year and they're exhibitions that to me. Was the key thing to get a really strong for artists. I could hold my head up and be really proud of that shortlist and then who won over and above that to my mind was considerably less important potent. I think that's why I mean one thing that is probably not very well understood. Is that demands. The Turner Prize at she places on artists. Can you say something about what kind of experience they yeah have women. So I think it's mellowed out because everyone's become more media savvy and we live in a kind of society of spectacle in a way that you know fifteen twenty years ago. We didn't put certain. Certainly you know in its heyday. The Turner Prize was absolutely punishing artists sponsored by Channel Four. Who made a short film about the to? The artist had to become trail by camera crew in studios in interviewed about male sound. Very sort of normal and so what to us but actually autism often very private people their studios sanctuary. And it's a real ordeal. Then you get the whole blaze of publicity and in the past to gain. The Turner Prize used to arrive and caught it. I would argue a great deal of controversy. They wanted people to be discussing arguing king and saying what's all this rubbish. Contemporary explain. Explain we don't like it and the artist would take the brunt of that and it was very very punishing them as they beforehand for instance. They they would've had reviews in say freeze magazine and an art magazines out monthly and things may have been critical but when they entered the Turner Prize arena suddenly. Got One more pers us. No and two more voluminous. And also by non specially so people you would get people saying this season. Rei Tool for instant. Yeah you get a lot of tabloid flag and lots of personal attacks. Some just general kind of putting face above the parapet. You suddenly became this kind of weird celebrities an autism. Some artists loved him and Grayson Perry absolutely thrived Wolfgang. Tillman's wins who's very kind of even-tempered passionate person thrived as well. He was fine with it. But you know other artists found it really really punishing quite often. Actually artists have well. Let's not publicized to much declined to accept the nomination a tool Sarah Lucas Julian. opie Kenneth when Evans all decided for various reasons and I would argue mainly the kind slammed the slaughter publicity fast aspect decided not to actually take the nomination. I think there was that that was interesting about this series. Of course the artists had had that option. Didn't they but why do you think it's differently. See why do you think if they had problems with the idea of being in competition with other artists. Why didn't they then say say from the off? Well actually no Adriano being complicated because of course the other side of the coin is that you know you get a great deal of exposure. Your Work Lobby. It'll tape cups. You'll solo show at tate or whatever other venues hosting Turner Prize you know with a great deal of high profile it ups your market value it ups your general general kind of currency and leverage as an artist and crucially in this case as an individual. Because you know you are speaking on live television the awards ceremony. You can say what you. There's not much they can. Do you know throwing you off the stage. So actually you have an extraordinary amount of leverage in a limited amount of time and I think that was very significant for these particular artists. tis In this time. I wonder woman. Also Tajani's came on this podcast sometime ago and talked very eloquently. I think about about the fact that she was showing doing very widely but actually was struggling to make ends meet and there's this perception again of of successful artists being successful financially. And actually for for tie I would've felt I would. I would imagine it would have been very difficult for her to say no because it does even even. If she hadn't won the prize she would have at least had a five thousand pound fee. And as you say her the with greater exposure in there for potentially been able to so more more work and make make ends meet a little bit better. I mean isn't endorsement. In even though it's not the great sort of weathervane yardstick used to be Actually it's all calm down publicity-wise as well to great extent. Because I think you know. Generally contemporaries achieved its aim. The Turner Prize has has put contemporary out into the cultural mainstream. People shocked and appalled at something isn't either a marble sculpture or painting on canvas. If they'll from quite short that'd be we'll do book paintings on campus in the tender price. So there is that sense has been has succeeded in that in that in that way is now one prize among many. We've all funding an all sponsorship ship and autism ability to live and work in central London central central parts of cities or be able to work and support themselves at all being so limited. Now as you say. Any kind of funding is gratefully received. Prizes have become a sort of weird alternative revenue stream. I think the Hamlin the woods which is much kind to artists the war because because he was an artist a lump sum just by being them. They haven't got to do anything for it. But you know it's helped lots of artists to actually continue functioning as artists. So yes I think the awesome didn't want to turn it down because isn't endorsement it. Also it slightly. This is all the other Turner Prize shortlist. If you turn it down it sort of looks. It's like you're in some way morally higher than them or on some kind of high ethical plan so yes they did take the the nomination but then as we subsequently discovered you he decided to something rather radical with it. Now we heard from Oscar and Helen in a couple of quakes rarely a focus and we subsequently read in a Guardian interview that this was planned over a long period. The no it wasn't something that came to them very recently right from the start. It seems they had this mutual idea that they were. They found the competitive aspect of distasteful. Taste food. I think it's really interesting. None of them had met before they became Turner. Shortly wasn't they've been cooking up this dog plot. You know as a sort of an idea to subvert the Turner China Prize Way Way Way back when but as you say. It wasn't a last minute decision. Either they had decided back in the summer as we discovered from this interview. And I think people is. Is this the end of the tunnel process as we know obviously the artists have in effect stage very soon genteel polite but bloodless coup. They've taken it over. I mean they've they've said to the jurors we're going to tell you to appoint as the winner and it's all of us and we're a collective and it's a fatal compli now. I would argue that. They did this. It's not necessarily to subvert the Turner Prize at sort of rebellious peevish autistic gesture against prize. That is as you said problematic for artists because I think they felt it was. It was quite a complex thing on the one hand all of their practice. It's very very different. Each mark. Different art works. I mean it ties. Shani's voluptuous optimus performances with many of texts proposing post patriarchal world Oscar Morello's many many investigations here with these figures it talking about global economy workforce's the kind of subjugation of that. And then you go ahead and looking back into the into the women's role in in in in the in the in the protests in Northern Ireland and the way in which women paid a role within that specifically benedict aveline and then of course orange labral Hamdan talking about about the way in which oral histories all experiences can be used in a kind of forensic way to to to investigate human rights and the extensive prisoners. I mean I'm going on a bit because it's rich multilayered work. But they are all raising very complex and really important sociopolitical issues. I think they felt because they work was so dependent. Predicated about these issues. You couldn't sort of privilege one over the other and go okay. You know feminism here over human rights over shared histories over. This would have been a kind of anomalous weird thing for them to do so. It's got a awful lot to do. I think about that practices artists. How they oh? How shared collective ethos that was appropriate for this kind of gesture? I think for me that I found that slightly. Tricky because lost your shortlist with I think similarly politically and socially engaged in the sense that you had Well districts take just take the winner Charlotte process work. He's very poetic and in some ways enigmatic but of absolutely central to it is your identity as a queer woman and I think this is in a way the jury last. He was able to make the decision. Yes you know all four these artists. We shortlisted them. They all of their work has merit but Charlotte's were in this particular. A year has been the strongest now in a way again all the artists sort of raw the restricting the respect that the jury Rican show to the artists by making this decision by taking that judgment away from them. Does it some somehow. It's sort of disrespectful to the jury. Themselves is really problematic. You could the Olarte his personal. All art is political. All artists dared to the artists heart. And therefore you know on the one hand none of them can be privileged over the other because it's apples impasse different kinds of expression as I banged on about different kinds of art forms. In this shortlist they are very multifarious but I think what was key here also the key ingredient. It was the dynamic between the artists themselves. You know last year shortlist. These artists didn't reach that consensus agreement. Yes yes of course. The same principals could apply. That was a lot of the work had political engagement and was grappling with with big issues. But the difference. Is this here. The artists themselves I felt between each other dynamic between them. The combination was his key element where they reach this agreement among sales and I would argue. That was a kind of unique strange confluence influence of a perfect storm. If you like of people coming together personalities interest I mean. Their incomes are very different Oscar winners incredibly successful in the international Yeah well tie Shawnee as we said has publicly said she struggled to make ends meet but they will have big ambition as artists. But I think in this case they will thought actually amongst each other they would feel awkward with dynamic between them if one of them actually was privileged over the in terms of what they did but yes they did undermine the Jerry because they said that the jury. We're not going to buy buy what you what we're going to tell you what you should do. One of the things that they've said is about the particular divisive moment that we're living in and it seems to me. This became particularly you. Were at the ceremony today and I think it really became clear in in the speech that they'd written that Helen read out which very very specifically addressed certain issues which was sort of generally alluded to in the letter. So for instance the rise of the right the rise of fascism the brutality of austerity in Britain so very specific issues and and it seems to me. The fact that we've got an election is now a week away. It seems to me that you know why that might be the this'll tipping point that. Hey we are in a very very particular an moment which is yes just social division across society but also you know a a an election that is seen as a once in a generation moment. Do you think that that particular heightened feeling I think absent that the other key element you have the nature of the artworks themselves. You have the dynamic between the artist and then absolutely crucial. You have this moment where we're just before general election as you say this kind of generation ration- defining election. I mean everybody before. The prize was announced at the dinner was talking about the status quo. The political situation. This election what we're going to do. How futile we all felt how how impulsively bleak the situation seemed? I mean. Of course you know. You've got the old liberal elite there in droves but there was very much that sense talking about the current status quo. You wouldn't let me talk about all that stuff it at a price Washington. You might have bit but this is really the conversation so then when the statement was when the result was announced and saying you know they wanted to make us show of solidarity of communality in these divided times you know. Oh Wow this is what we've just been talking about out. Someone actually doing something they making gesture. Of course it's a symbolic gesture. Of course it's just an off. Price is not going to save the NHL stop institutional racism or austerity but there was a sense of them actually standing up and being counted so when Helen actually did read out this joint statement that they made about joint acceptance there. Was this absolutely literally trenchant. Disavowal of government policy the specifics of as as you said austerity of racism divisiveness. Everyone was everyone was absolutely enthralled by it because it was it was felt somebody was actually. They were actually doing something. Congress about the terrible situation and with they even mentioned the election coming up. I mean they weren't party politically what they said. They were a party political but they didn't make any obvious statement but of course they will but decks Tories out necklaces and vote Labour stickers. So so you know now that colors fatty firmly to the most and they could use another reason why they what we wanted to accept the nomination. They didn't know back in June. That was going to be the selection but there was a sense I think also of using using the platform the public platform national news on the BBC to be able to stand up and you know we are artists. We are people we live in this world and we care. I think what the most interesting thing now is what effect this has on future prices because easy. Just this very very heightened moment and then can Cam Newton Cam the prize return to next year. I think it's so depends on what's happening next year. Who shortlisted I mean? We've said the prize isn't this great big benchmark that it used to be isn't the lightning rod for all people all kind of prejudices and concerns and and debate around on contemporary art that it used to be contemporary has ended the cultural mainstream. It's not this. Seething mass of controversy but on the other hand is still the big op top prize in the UK. There's no doubt about it because it does have this first-past-the-post element I mean. There's not forget in the past. You know artist Jala Martin spits. It's hard prize. Money between the four winners in two thousand twenty sixteen I think and that's not forget. Also it was given to an architectural collective assembles. There has already been insensitive communality and collectively nibbling away at the Turner Prize Anyway. And there's no doubt that you know in the future it may well have other elements along those lines. But I really do think that you know it depends on the dynamic between the artis shortlisted who shortlisted what. The situation is at the time I mean off to the year after Helen Martin Split her prize money for ways. Charlotte project stood up and was very happy to receive her check for being the prize winner and nobody thought. ooh That's rampant individualist. How dare she'd be a good testicle when jolly good she deserved it? You know so I think it really will vary that. According to so many different aspects of of the circumstances the artists Dynamic I think the prize is still got some legs. But they're just not such speed important ones. This now is an option of course and it may be that other groups of artists in the past. I've had similar conversations but just never never thought it would be possible to make this kind of intervention but now is an intervention on the table noticed the in the interview afterwards on the BBC news program which as you say was live on TV TV. Tie Shawny said it's up to the artists next year and the NEC again sort of it does make it rather difficult for an artist to a certain degree to into to then stand up and accept the prize on their own next year in an in a way that I think is a slightly different to just dividing the prize. Money it's to say `I as an artist feel feel happy accepting this prize above the other three artists in a way these these this year's artists of kind of set a grounding which which which makes diff- more difficult pickled than it was before to simply get up and say yes. I deserve this. I'm really delighted to win the Spurs. That's true I mean. Gauntlett has been thrown down and is challenged manage the prize new set. And you saw the whites of the take. Curator's this off to the results have been announced and indeed annex focus and director of tape Britain knew there was. There's definite free solve unease about of course public. There will very supportive about it. He's the jury so he accepted the excitement. The couldn't really refuse very difficult. And and I I agree. It is complicated. It is a gaudence. Being thrown. Down is a challenge. I mean I think they will still hold a ton of prime next year. Let's see I think very interesting interesting another. It's another challenge for the artists. Really you know they've already got face the publicity having some major show very short notice that they are shortlisted things and indeed. Yeah the prospect of a large chunk of prize money no bad thing but it is another pressure to put on them as to how to respond to that challenge. It's been done but I still would argue. It's very dependent on the kind word that was being produced. I mean all is for artists. were making very political work. It's very collective work participation rework. It wasn't one person on their own in the studio wrestling with a canvas. You know was a different kind of communality to it and is a very we live. In strange times it is a particularly uneasy. Phibro brawl anxious making time. And I think if they haven't responded to that someone discount jolly good. Thank you very much not made any reference in this speech. That would seem quite weird as as well so I think we really do have to wait and see. I suppose that one option for the tate would be to than our institute the set of rules which say you you know. Artists can own only must be awarded to one artist but the program as if they do that. They're in some way disrespecting this year's hottest of dumb this you you know then. They're denying this kind of collectively that we've we've been admiring on this on this podcast today. So there's lots of ways in which the hands are tied basically does present the tate with a with a series a tricky decisions. Tonight is very complicated. Now because as you say if they'd still this rule it looks like they've devalued. What happened here when everybody's been saying how marvelous it is? And how all of the judges said they felt honored to to be able to comply with requests in the shortlisted artists. But I still think that off the record tate will be very firmly saying next year. The shortlisted autism. We want to give one artist this prize. We don't want to have any more of this kind of Malarkey. Thank you very much because it does undermine the ethos of the prize fries but then maybe maybe then artists will refuse to take part. Maybe it really could spell the death-knell of televised. I think it's a shame. Aim if there isn't some kind of assessment every year of taking the pulse of what's going on what for very subjective individuals because that's what the jury is feel the most interesting getting off shows of the year before it's a way to give artists money. It's a way to give us exposure. It's a way to show. Maybe they just have to have it as a foreshore is prize. Maybe maybe getting rid of the prize. I mean I always felt it was problematic hence me behold lofty. You're not doing it until something felt some money for for putting on the show and so maybe the time has come not to get rid of the prize but just to choose. Four artists who they feel of autism made the most significant contribution that would be the way to do it. Let the artists judge the format of the prize dictate the format of the prize. And let these these four artists produce that in the future. Mind boggles about what happens next year. When we're hurtling towards another no deal brexit and Donald Trump wins his second took anyway Louisa? Thank you very much for joining. You can reduce its comment on this story at the art newspaper Dot Com and you can listen to those full interviews with Helen Cameras and Maria both in June two thousand nineteen wherever you get your put coasts. The turn of prize exhibition continues at Turner Contemporary in Margate until the twelfth of January twenty twenty and admission is free. We'll be back talking to Tarazi. See to Fernandez. After this. The multitalented French avoca poet painter writer and filmmaker Jean Cocteau upto was in his late sixty s when he had ceramics to his creative bow producing first pieces in nine hundred fifty seven three himself into this new passion who such energy that within a a year he held a Solo Exhibition of ceramic works in Paris before his death in nineteen sixty three. He created three hundred pieces selection of which comes to buns prints multiple sale in December bonham's head of Princeton Multiples Lucia show. Santa Fe said this is the largest and most representative collection cocteau ceramics ever seen auction throughout his life. The artist I just off the classical myths and legends inspiration. This influence is very evident in his ceramic pieces. Were rendered with a clean graphic lines. There was such an important part of his artistic artist. Expression more about the story visit bombs dot com. Welcome back now. The Miami Artists Teresita Fernandez has returned home for her. I Mitt Korea survey which is being shown at the Perez Art Museum. In Miami this large galaxy addition reaches more than fifty sculptures installations. Drawings Wall pieces made by Fernandez over the past Twenty Years Editor in the Americas. Helen stoneless visited Fernandez in her New York. Studio to discuss the show. So this is your first full museum retrospective and it's also a return to Miami for you not just as the city that you were born in but where you got your start as an artist you got your BFA at the Florida International University and you got some of your first shows in Miami. Do you think you could talk a little bit about that. What it was like kind of coming coming up in Miami as a young artist yes so just just to clarify? Though I've lived in New York for over twenty years years which a lot of people don't know sometimes they think that just because I'm from Miami. I've lived there but I've actually lived in and worked in Brooklyn New York for since nineteen ninety seven but I did go to undergraduate school in Miami before going into a lot of other places and doing graduate school in Virginia and then traveling sort of all over the world but Miami was The place that I moved back to Right after graduate school. And where I I started sort of working on my own outside of school context ext so yeah. It is a return for me. And it's It's really important that my first mid career retrospective is in my my hometown. Because so much of my work really is about place. And about sort of unraveling relationship to place so it was was loaded in lots of ways personally as well to be able to conceptualize it within that framework and it also seems. Is it like a city that really encapsulates a lot of the themes that you explore in your work. This idea of landscape this idea of the American landscape and scape and how that's changed shouldn't what's going on not just naturally but politically and socially. Yeah absolutely I mean. Miami is an immigrant city. It's a it's it's a city built on the Labor of immigrant people and Black and Brown people so my family happens to be from Cuba. They came right after the revolution. But certainly Miami which is very young town as well was was very much built on the Labor of Bahamians and end Haitians and Cubans and so this sort of very expansive sense of a Caribbean presence in the city. That goes back a very a long way and the viewer the audience becomes a really integral part of your work very often especially in these large-scale installations it's really about experiencing in in the middle of the work yes absolutely in fact Early on when my work in the very early days when my work looked more architectural architectural people would often ask me questions about my relationship to architecture or whether I was an architect or whether I had studied architecture and I didn't I was very much a sculptor. Oh conceptual artists. Who had whose practice was rooted in sculpture? But I always said that my connection to the architectural had to do with with human scale it had to do with that immersive component of US viewers sort of being immersed in in in the spatial context and negotiating that and traversing. That and one of these early immersive installations borrowed landscape deep from one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. That was part of your work that you created out of your artist residency at art pays in San Antonio that's going to be in the current show right yes sir. Borrowed landscape was created in at art based at the residency in one thousand. Nine hundred ninety It's actually the last last place I was in my travels before moving to New York and taking up residence here. Permanently and the piece consists us of these five sculptural volumes made out of fabric and wood and drawing and artificial light and they are references to seventeenth century formal gardens as well as Japanese traditional garden techniques that have to do with this little accuse and idea of unraveling space by tracing the geometric patterns with your moving body which is essentially what you do. When you're you're moving through one of those shaped par terre hedges versus I of all living comb so that pieces of the exhibition and I hadn't seen it for twenty years so it was sort of a a a delightful moment to be able to pull it out of storage and install it again? That's that's great. Can you talk a little bit about what it's like revisiting. Some of those early works as an artist. I mean how you re approach them and how have they changed in your eyes you know. Yeah so so the the show there are over fifty pieces in the show and they come from different periods of time from the last twenty years And yet it's it's a kind of exercise and Mining One's past and in some cases I was pleasantly surprised and really found works folks that are included in the show that that felt very fresh demand. That felt very connected to the work that I'm doing now especially conceptually And I was. I was also surprised just to see how how well some of them had had held up and I'm not talking about their physical conditions. But they're kind of sort of laser focus on specific themes that are still really important to me now. And how. As a young artist I was was very much Unraveling these notions of the viewer navigating and way finding on all of these different levels. That are physical immersive like you mentioned before but also metaphorical and poetic and and that have a whole lot to do with imagining projecting oneself into different scenarios and spaces. Do you think audiences have become a bit more Tuned to that kind of work. Did you find your work being experienced in a different way twenty years ago than it is now. Do you think people are more used to these kinds of immersive. Works where you're walking into them as part of the experience and they see more of that or there was a lot of installation happening than to In this in this particular iteration of the exhibition what I've done is I've basically created a views the landscape of the gallery. It's a very series of been gallery spaces almost as a kind of landscape that you're traversing a journey that you're moving through through through the spaces and so what I've done is I've taken a lot of old works arranged. Sort of bye bye bye. I period of time but also by by themes such as you know subterranean nocturnal radiance A different sorts of visual cues and I've arranged them so that they're kind of installations made out of a lot of different individual works So they've never been seen in that way so you might walk into a room and walk underneath a piece. That suspended over your head. Had called Vertigo Vertigo ensue. And then you might look down onto another work. That's a mirror on the floor that you reflected in but that also reflects flex everything around it and so the shadows and the reflection of one works bill into the work next to it so all of the works together are kind of creating their own installation installation as well. Just the the exhibition in itself is kind of a greater work of art exhibition is like it's like a series of containers. And so you know. The first container is actually the city as a reference and it's it's like concentric containers And then there's a museum within that city and it's a very particular museum in a very very particular city and so each of the galleries are then like a subsequent container and within that there are Installations that are their very own kind of rooms that you walk into That are Dark or for that sort of shift your attention. Can we talk. About some of your more recent works the kind of burned Charcoal based installations. That are kind of about contemporary American society. And how what those came out of. I've seen seen some burn drawings based on landscapes in Puerto Rico. Is that right. And then you have these massive maps of the US maps of the world that are made out of charcoal kind of wall pieces sculptural wall pieces that map out the world. What was the kind of starting point for those kinds of works? And how did they develop into these massive massive maps well. It's interesting that you think of that. Work as more contemporary or more related to contemporary issues. Because that is true but only because because they connect to historical issues and so a lot of my work really deals with uncovering the kind of erasure at that exists around ideals of place in landscape and using materials that very directly speak to the violence embedded in the colonial colonial landscape. And in what we think of In these prescribed settings like even the Word Word America or the Americas and how in the United States America's always used in the singular. But you know in the rest of the Western Hemisphere word that is used plural as the Americas and so these sort of a preconceived notions that we have often from a point of view of American exceptionalism awesome as well of not even understanding where we are because what things get named and how borders get a Shifted and controlled are all about who who the winners are and who has power. And who has the ability to control that so the whole all series are made with charcoal and with images of fire are both a reference to indigenous techniques of slash burn which were used three throughout the Americas to keep the land sustainable and to keep agricultural cycles healthy and and viable and also a metaphor for place and landscape as also inherently violent because the physical earth and the materials used in these pieces whether they're gold referring into colonization or charcoal which is basically burn trees They very much point to a kind of social. Burning as as well a kind of these embers of of a social political aftermath and repercussion of all of that ongoing trajectory of centuries of abuse on the landscape but also off on a press people's it's very powerful work to see you in person and we see some kind of examples of not the same works but similar works in your studio and I I think another interesting element of your public art installations you've talked about. Creating public are not just because of that scale of working in that at scale but also the opportunity to work in a public space and what it means to work in a public space you were previously part of the US Commission of fine fine arts which is kind of involved in this design and artistic vision of American designs for memorials. Auriol's coins a national identity for art. But that I don't currently have an artist on their commission anymore. Your your tenure kind ended in two thousand sixteen. Is that right I was on the Commission of Fine Arts. I was appointed by Barak Obama And I was on it for a few years And the Commission of Fine Arts is is a is an entity a commission of six people The the change in rotate and they basically advise a congress and the president on matters of design so things things that happened on the National Mall any monuments that kind of thing And so it was it was a great responsibility and honor to have been appointed to that. And certainly certainly I am a big champion of of what can happen in the public sphere and the public realm when it's when that's done responsibly. which is one of the reasons why I'm so interested in creating public art and engaging with the public because if begs you know oh always the question of what public you know and so there there's always The public is this the public station mark. Sorry is this very mutable. Uh thing and I'm this very much connects to these these. These ideas that that I'm interested in exploring erasure and so place and the landscape are more often about what you don't see what you do see so for example. We are sitting Karen my studio in Brooklyn on land. Stolen the not land as well as the rest of the art world in the city and these sort of like Peeling back the layers of where you are Are really important. And so when I do something in the public realm when they make a big public outdoor peace Fatima Ghana that I did in Madison Square Park in two thousand fifteen For me it's it's a it's an enormous opportunity to A not disappear right to really take up space in this very visible way but also you know in the case of Ghana it was it was smid of these overhead mirrors that That covered all of the walkways in the park and it was really a way of doubling and creating kind of portrait of the Urban Camille and of who really does make up that public and so for example. When we were doing the programming everybody kept talking about the public and and I was very curious about this because the public is also the people that don't get named and so that part for example sits in the flat iron district strict surrounded by all of these expensive condos and Italy and all these different expensive restaurants but at lunchtime the people who use the the park are all the people who work in the back of the kitchen in those places and they somehow weren't counting as the public and so I created a lot of the programming around it which is an important part of what I do when I do public art? For example I had a series of bilingual poetry readings I did a collaboration with Stephen Patrol new which basically invited The public you know skill. They're unskilled to participate the pay in a kind of choreographed. A musical dance kind of I don't even know what to call so it was really like a kind of performance piece in the space. I also did a collaboration with India. Selye who and basically recreated in in the peace underneath Fatima Ghana The other way is which in colonial times in Cuba was the only day that enslaved Africans could perform and sing and dance a religious dances basically publicly and so again there was this sort of re scripting of what constitutes public space and that event for example which to the public kind of looked like a sort of festival with you. Know drumming coming and Lyrics that were composed for it and dancing was actually a religious event was actually a religious festival festival. Kind of rooted in Afro Critic. African religion and so that was sort of invisible to some public but really visible to other public so that idea of who constitutes the public and what is seen them. What isn't is something that's at at the core of what I do so whenever I create a public art work there are two things happening simultaneously? There's the physical artwork that gets built. Which is the thing you see in point two and get photographed and then there's a kind of social structure that I'm creating underneath that usually gets implemented in the programming and then in how the context around the physical structure is owned with full agency? So that the deliberateness of the concepts is Kept in tact. There's been a lot of discussion lately. Not just about art in the public sphere but more permanently what gets memorialized and what gets monumental is through our in a very deliberate way and we've been seeing a lot of movement to memorialize long overlooked people. Long overlooked groups long overlooked figures that have been very important to American history but until now have not been included in the monument making. They haven't they haven't been involved in that. Is that something that you're interested in. Do you think you would see your work. Being able to design a monument to historical figures out. Something you'd WanNa be involved in Absolutely yes I think. Actually that I mean I've I've I've certainly designed Permanent structures that are monuments. They don't always have to be figurative in order to commemorate an event or person even Certainly when we see things like the Vietnam Veterans Memorial there. There's nothing figurative there and yet it's one of the most powerful memorials that we have so I absolutely see see myself engaging in that kind of monument making or memorial making Because I think it's really important at the moment I'm I'm making a permanent peace of for the rooftop of Bam here in Brooklyn and I also have a permanent peace. That's about the length of a city block. DOC called Seattle cloud cover which is permanently installed and part of the infrastructure at the Seattle Art Museums Olympic sculpture. Park I'll suggest I Finished a permanent peace in New Orleans in the best of Sculpture Garden And it's Avista sixty feet long and definitely very permanent so I think what's interesting and important about monumentally and you know even memorials regardless of what their to is that sense of permanence and so for a long time the visibility you and the permanence. The thing that doesn't get embraced has has been defined by whoever sort board of Can connect to the cannon and to You know quite frankly to white supremacy. You know those are. Those are the monuments that have the most visibility ability in this country. And so I think that there's there's really a important raw responsibility to shift these narratives because those those public monuments that take up space that are cast in bronze that are permanent. That are not going anywhere for hundreds of years. Are What an and how people learn about history and for those of us in the art world where sometimes a little bit in the bubble but the way that public monuments are supposed to work as the people who may not know anything about art art history can look at them and understand something and so I think that This this a push for monuments where people of Color can see themselves is incredibly important because if you are a four year old child on a school trip and you look up and you only see people that don't look like you be commemorated. It's very hard to imagine That that that you can be in a position of power one day but it's also a very effective way to raise the violence. Silence that colonization has created and that is our shared reality regardless of you. Know what what What you identify with personally great? Well thank you so much terrorists. And it's been wonderful. Speaking with you create thank you the terrorist Fernandez elemental is at the art museum. Miami until the ninth of February Twenty Twenty Twenty and at the Phoenix Art Museum in Arizona from the twenty first of March until the twenty sixth of July. And that's all for this week. You can read all the news from Miami in the daily papers. If you're at the fair itself South on our website at the newspaper come or on at for which he can find in the APP store you can subscribe to the newspaper of the art newspaper Dot Com where you can find the subscription to sue you while you're there. You can also subscribe for free to our daily newsletter and our monthly newsletter. Good art market. I do subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already and if you've enjoyed it please leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts. It helps others to find us the art newspaper. PODCAST is produced by Judy and housekeeper. Dawson and David Clack and David is also the editor Sir. Thanks to Louisa and Teresita and thank you for listening. Join US next week. 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Can the art market weather the coronavirus storm?

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:02:46 hr | 6 months ago

Can the art market weather the coronavirus storm?

"We cannot is brought to you. In Association with Christie's visit Christie's dot com to find out more about the wealth leading auction. Six hundred sixty six auction private sales online anytime. Hello I'm Ben Luke. Welcome to the weekend art. The name may be new but the focus remains much the same. Still hear the latest news interviews and analysis. The big Would Vince every week from the newspaper? T this week. We're looking at the art market. We talked to Rachel Powell. A professor of finance at Maastricht University School of business and Economics. About what the economic effects of the corona virus covered nineteen pandemic might mean for the art market and the newspapers market editors Anna Brady and Margaret Carrigan reflect on the effects of this crisis on galleries and the response to it at different levels of the art world. Plus we have the latest in our series looking at lonely works behind. The doors of museums closed due to the corona virus. This week with the artist. Sean scully on Matisse painting the Moroccans before we begin a reminder that you can read the art newspaper anywhere anytime with our iphone and IPAD APP. Visit the APP store search for the newspaper. And then you can install the free APP if you're a subscriber only at content is available as part of your subscription and art market. Our monthly newsletter is out. Now you can sign up for that. The newspaper Dot Com Click on the link at the top right of the homepage. Now this week of the art newspaper we've been reporting in-depth about the effects of the corona virus on the art market both now and into the future to begin with. We thought we get the economists fee. Rachel count is a professor of finance at Maastricht University School of business and Economics in the Netherlands. He specializes in the market. I spoke to Rachel on the line from Maastricht earlier this week before we start talking about the market ofter corona virus. Can we talk about about where we were? Before it m there was some sort of gloomy economic outlooks particularly relating to slowing growth in you for instance so to what extent was the art market in a good place before the corona virus hit. Yeah that's indeed the case during him twenty nineteen. We've seen already that the fine art market particularly for auction sales had fallen globally Around eight percent or so but this was predominantly driven by sales in the USA and and actually also the UK you so large and drops in auction sales over the over the whole year The largest drop in Europe was really the UK which fell significantly about seventeen percentage auction using data from Art Net relative to actually continental Europe. Which didn't face about tool because it was quite switch between The market from the UK. Over to Europe So there were in places indeed. It was a bit gloomier than the previous year's indeed. And what about galleries was there any day to which suggested how healthy the the market for Galleries World Well? Lusa looking at the up also. Ubs report a focus on this annual survey of looking at gatherings. Um and it was our experience as well from talking to a lot of galleries over the year it was the top end of the market. That was was fooling actually relative to the bottom so that was quite interesting because previously over Other the years prior to twenty one thousand nine hundred seen A more polarized art market some more divergence between the top into the market and the bottom end of the market said last year. It was really the first year where you felt that there was the the the top end of the market was was was dropping but the Boston market wasn't doing his badly. Because you you so that this the The volume of of sales was still very high. And and the volume of sales is also very important when considering how healthy than the market generally is actually know that's interesting oversee the SORTA in a in a way that kind of big stories relating to the market of related to fares and fares of become such a massively important part of the ecosystem We've HAD BASEL COMB AND FREEZE OF BEEN CANCELED. M. T. Pfaff was CA- tailed. How important are these physical events to the to the market? Now how much you sold at fairs We know that they also some remote dealing. That happens around with some of the. Some of the works is sold before the fair. And it's almost like they're just there for show but Ken Galleries Am Savan. Leave temporarily own non-physical dealing is there any evidence that the dealing around fares is significant enough to galleries afloat for instance? Well that that's a really interesting question. Because of course them the krone viruses oversea CA tailed off meant that we haven't been able to have Social contact with with with Anybody in in just under lockdown in almost every every country globally. So although there's been a a rush to move on line in general I think the answer to your question very much in the word that you've used there On on the notion of it being a physical event And obviously we have such a need to meet socially But the importance of an art fair is in the in the presence and that actual physical activity of of being face to face not only with the the art works And seeing them live as it were but it's also the opportunity to be able to have relationships with dealers and actually meet artists and so forth so that it becomes a very important part of the process in the secondary market of of of selling of course And I think that's something which the galleries hopefully will be able to survive temporarily. But of course the thing again. The the answer lies there in in the question. On how How temporary the this The downturn will be in the art market Obviously there will be some changes and the has been a huge rush online and that we have seen this as you as you refer to. Non Physical dealing in that respect for those people who are already have good relationships with their dealers in this trust there comes back to the old Saying if you know trust and transparency but if this trust in between the The buyers and the dealers And they feel strongly They have a good relationship with Adidas and can trust them. Then they'll be much more willing to move online which we may also see then an older generation also being a little bit more willing to perhaps move online post post the corona virus pandemic Because if become actually more custom to having to do more online than they had done in the past that may be one change actually but again it depends on how long how long then this this this this is going to pan out here in in Europe and also I think predominantly the the effect in the US which could obviously be massive one of the things. That's interesting about where you sit. There is in a sense the buying and selling that happens at the fares the actual transactions that happened that happened affairs erroneous altuve. Maybe not tip of the iceberg own. Certainly only a percentage of the kind of selling networks that happened relating absolutely so. I mean that's an opportunity to oversee promote the them the dealers and meet new new clients so unfortunately that aspect of of meeting new clients will Will have disappeared with the first being temporarily closed or postponed in in this respect We when when we had a recent survey to dealers we noticed also that They suggested on average that they They meet fifty percent New clients each each year Which they require in order to be able to make a turnover so that aspect of their business and it's always being one the top the top concern that they have is meeting new clients Is going to be detailed Enormously so it's looking at how you can use the online space over the next year in order to be able to to reach new clients Will be will I? Will I think? Be One of the most important determinants and insane how healthy the art market actually then stays you mentioned the. Us The Rachel. That listeners may not know the extent to which the US dominant market in the market. Can you can you explain how dominant it is? But also to what extent an extended period of lock down in the states would skew the market in a very particular way. Yeah absolutely The US is of course. The has traditionally been the largest seller in auction markets And and and galleries historically. Um since we've been able to collect data on on ocean markets and we see that the number of sales of course in the the. Us anyway went down dramatically last year and it seems to be the case that the US is moving much more slowly Out of The the pandemic just because of the the way that the crisis been handled and of course because the very dense population At the moment the hotspots New York And moving to other other biggest cities and with that being the most important one of the most important cities in the art market in in the US. Then of course it depends. Just how how's how long this pandemics really going to play out in the US. If it's only a matter of a few weeks of course It won't have such a great impact but it's very very likely that this is going to play out over a number of months And move into into next year as well which will be very detrimental. Therefore for the art market In the US. And I think this applies also into the movement that's happened or Reggie towards the towards Asia more generally If you look at the trade figures for art markets you see that The ZOYSIA A large number of imports into Asia exports traditionally out of Europe and and the US more generally and particularly overseeing Hong Kong going to enter into China. So I think the two things at play here. If we've got any way you know the time before krona. We're having a trend towards the east. It will depend how quickly Asia reverts to normal which seems at the moment to be happening. Much faster Just because of them will also -tarian regimes and they've been able to tell the the the the virus more quickly Than it has been the case overseeing not just in Europe but here As we're speaking about the the US. So I think it's very lightly taps in a large global impacts as well. That's really interesting. So do you think we might see a situation where sales that were expected to happen? In certain parts of the world will be moved to the parts of the world where the virus has been curtailed more than others so eeg we we have a something that might be set for America which will come to you at once. Europe is sort of out of the worst extremes of the vote it could be. I mean could certainly be the case that Hong Kong picks up again then quickly relatively and then the the sales that they'll see missed out on Recently also without Basel them being canceled on the auction house sales Not Happening means that that could will indeed be the case just in order to keep the global market than than going right so. I'm interested now talking about the secondary market because obviously once we hope it will be very seen the wheel. We will be on the worst of this. There is expected to be a global recession and is the effective recession that secondary markets enter appeared of paralysis. Because there's just that much less cash about yeah. I think that the word cashiers or any importance I mean. It's it's basically For FOR GALLERIES. Dita's Who Don't have enough cash in the Castro is they're often they're issue unfortunately this lack of liquidity which is very typical actually of any art market. Downturn We'll we'll really be detrimental to the smaller sized galleries where they where they were anyway. have very low margins And they don't they don't often make a profit if they make a profit at all. It's our Understanding from looking at the data on galleries and dealers in particular that the smaller dealers. You'll really suffer in this type of period. So I think it depends really if they if they own their own stock for example if they're able then to to to to be able to sell that during these times just just if we can manage to keep the volume going in Using other types of Channels as it were the online channel rather than more traditional channel at this period so that they can actually Maintain some form of stability and not enter this paralysis as you're actually referred to here as well. Is there a patent for Halley art market recovers from crises? I mean it's my perception. May maybe you might correct me on this. That the market recovered from the financial crisis better than other industries deed. So obviously we we. We are fully expecting this to be a recession which may be much worse even than that recession but does the art market have particular set of parameters that allow it to recover more quickly than other industries. Yes the market's quite interesting in that respect Because it's a market that unless you're really forced to sail than of course even during a downturn or period of recession. Then you're you're you're not likely to put up your your artworks for sale in this you really forced to or you have to so of course. It comes down to being a lot less volume occurring during times of recession. That's another form of liquidity as it were So what happens when the market starts to pick up again is that actually things a as input back up for sale on the market. And because you don't necessarily always having reached very those very low price points everywhere because you're not necessarily forced to have to sell sell thanks Then it it looks as though the the market is actually resilient to a downturn when in fact it's just the case that you haven't had a lot of sales because you're not forced to half the sale so it does appear ways that following A crisis that the the lock it does tend to Looked like it recovers actually quite well and as you say. Perhaps better than you might predicts. Yeah Yeah I mean. Do you think there's anything that needs to be done by governments cetera to stimulate a quick recovery time? Is there anything that economies can do? Which will which will help that process? Which will create the conditions. Which help I think this time is really quite serious. Just because you have so many Smaller galleries not necessarily being able to attain the funding As a As a small business to be able to pay their staff or you can pay themselves So unfortunately it's like that we see in other closures at the the the bottom end of the market For Galleries and of this is not just the art market. But this is probably going to happen across A we're seeing already occurring. I'm a lot of people losing their jobs. And and finding funding employment benefit going up Across did UK put us in the US. We've seen dramatic increase in the number of unemployed So I think that's going to be something. Sadly where unless the government really step in and help the creative industries more generally than the art market will suffer in the in the secondary market for for galleries and dealers and and likewise. Sofer not forget the artists in grass roots of of the art market. If then not getting if artists aren't getting support to be able to And are actually self isolating either in their studios which is often the case at the moment so they can actually turn continue with their practice Or if they're unable to Visit the studios because of the self isolation and there's no supported at schools and so forth with things moving online and it's obviously something which is very important that there's a physical relationship between teachers and an art students as well and and so the is obviously going to play out in the long term globally with having had this disruption at the grassroots level. As well here I mean it's interesting. The girl the in a way one of the things. I think that we will be seeing over. The coming. Months is to what extent there are multiple art world's because I think you're absolutely right. I think seems very urgent that lots of people at the grassroots end of this of the art world a really really struggling but of course we used to seeing the upper end of the market relating to to corporations and high net worth individuals. And all that. Kinda stuff so I suppose. Could we see in a sort of a worst case scenario happening here? Which is the sort of the grassroots? Says he say and the sort of the really is the sort of a jetty part of the world to certain degree. Where new artists may new? And eventually that trickles up as it were through up to the upper echelons of the art market is is massively affected. But you know the kind of multi-million pound sales in the sort of high end of the market is less affected. I actually think you'll you'll find both ends then contracting so I think you'll find the top end of the market contracting because even high net worth individuals will be reluctant to buy such a such high levels during such a crisis when they feel perhaps their money would be MORE USEFUL ELSEWHERE. But but definitely the bottom. Okay through several in the sense that Artists are squeezed and perhaps after their practice. is interesting. Also those new energy and initiative to be able to be more creative in this in this space But of course it depends if there's enough funding around to facilitate that So I think that's really well. It's largely a political question at the moment Some countries of of done a better job at being able to try and support the arts at this period of time. Just because it's such a high number of self-employed people in in that area. How crucial to. The market's buoyancy. Is ITS INTERNATIONAL SCOPE? Because it seems to me that that that's been fundamental to this extraordinary exponential rise in the market and it seems also that some of those networks might be under threat. The you know we've seen every airline across the world massively basically stop. We've seen that sort of international exchange which has been so crucial to be recent decades come to a halt is crucial for the the health. The Art market going forward that that basically is resurrected very clean and very fully assures. It necessarily has to happen immediately. I think with old Crisis in society. B B. They economic or in this case a health crisis It's often the catalyst for change more more. Broadly and this seems to appear already. This is obviously a focus. Much more on a national level Even a much more local level. And that's perhaps something that we've seen From community building and community spirit But also for artists in general people getting to know each other more More specifically within within their own community and perhaps wanting to take care of those more in their own communities it's hopefully that respect to a catalyst for change that there is this focus also on on the local and that may that may then vigor a more interesting For later where it grows again to be more more global so that we end up with more interesting were different types of outlook developing within within the market as well Very uncertain moment. Thanks for giving US some clarity and continue to stay. Well thank you very much Now for the latest in our series Langley works in which we focus on art museums close because of Covet nineteen. This week I spoke to the artist. Sean scully and what we discussed is only mattis. The Moroccans painting from Nineteen. Fifteen to sixteen in the Museum of Modern Art. In New York is one of Matisse's most complex paintings which he said to the terrace of the little cafe of the Casper in ten year is divided into three sections of the upper left me with a flower pot and the Dome of a mosque at bottom left. Still Life of what looks like melons and leaves and at the right thing with an Arab with a turban who sits with his back to US beyond him is an archway with two windows with figures above. She wants. Kelly traveled to Morocco four times in his early years artist and then followed imitates footsteps there for BBC TV series artist journeys in Nineteen ninety-two. I spoke to him from his home in New York. And you can see the painting as we discuss it at the art newspaper. Dot Com Click on the poker's link on the homepage. And look for this episode. Now sure and I have to confess that with this work. I rather suggested it to you but it is a painting I know is an enormous significance to it is it is not. I think it. I think it was perhaps more interesting to me when I made the film than it is now. That's interesting. Yeah because in the census autobiographical one's position. You know once position is what defines one's preferences via two more towards Picasso lately but You know the Americans and feel pain is a very largely responsible for The incredible position not only Matiz has because he wanted to set college free. And in this picture you see him painting not in situ but his return from Morocco. You're not might be useful to tell people you went to Morocco twice nineteen twelve and nineteen thirteen when when he was painting. Inten jere you know these paintings like The Rifkin because he was interested in people lift on the mountains the riff and he painted them. And you see you see when you look at Matisse's paintings the ones that were made in Morocco. There's an incredible bloom. Inositol about them because he had escaped the mechanization of painting that Picasso. His arch-rival participated in so avidly even Brock invented it. And when he comes back he goes to confront again. World War One. 'cause he painted it right in the middle this running dreadful occurrence and of course the cubis and in a sense they go together because tanks running live the countryside ruining hostile life blowing everything up as the result of course of mechanization and the brutality of it and the crisis of the object. The crisis of the belief in the object was Explored by the twin prongs of Dodd Amon cubism and as we all know Mattis. The great idealist wanted to make some kind of Utopian sense of beauty and Peace and hominy. I'm what you see in. This painting is the opposite of that. It must be one of the toughest matisses to to get one's head around such an extraordinary complex picture isn't it? Yeah and it's also labored over now. Matisse was great instinctual painter he had an extraordinary facility with Cali was the great tolerance. Because don't forget you know that he was the leader of the movement China's entry on a decade earlier with Brock and Vlaminck and they were setting color free in relation to The subject as the way in the same way. The jazz did later on in relation to the melody. John Coltrane for example one of my favorites and the painting the Moroccans and the piano lesson which is also in the Moma fraught paintings. They're both uncomfortable paintings. 'cause they were painted as I said before in the middle of a terrible situation where young boys were being slaughtered on the fields of passion. Dale and you can't take that out of what it is of the of the stress in the painting. I think that's very important key. Matisse even mentioned in I think in letter to Cameron where he talks about you know of course. My difficulties is very much paraphrasing. But of course my district difficulties don't compare to what's going on in the war but I am struggling. You know he's he's he's really grappling with massive issues pictorial issues issues of color. And of course the say cubism was a massive gauntlet to. He used the term cubes and the criticism of cubism was based on right. Yeah and of course you know. He had to be carrying guilt. Because there is making art very close to where boys are being slaughtered and I think that reworking for working very often is connected to personal guilt and for example on the right side of the painting. You see this guy wearing a turban. I've I've stood in front of that. Painting talked about it. Before as you know film that looks at Terrible News. If it's made out of concrete his his his facility to allow light to come through the color disappears entirely with this painting. This painting is Lady Bird. Dog The the grid under under the Plumb Bob left of the painting Vegetables is is broken up so it says if even the grid this is nothing. Psychologically very interesting even the grid which should be a platform of stability upon which he put things. Were you organize? Things is in a fight with this on that side. Grittiness doesn't know whether it wants to be a supporting grid or a a grid. That's having a nervous breakdown because of the situation and also because of this crisis terrible crisis belief that brought about oldest out that was tearing away at the sanctity of painting itself which has gone on of course for a century and you have all this over some disbelief in the painting. This self doubt in the painting which we don't usually associate with Makati's and what matisses doing and this painting is competing with cubism trying to make a great summation and doing it in the middle of a disaster even the even the flowers on the balcony in front of the mosque backpack top left Reduced to geometric patterns which is very very unique and Met CICI's of you know. He uses flowers. Beautifully always indulges in that cubs and rhythm you know if you go to That beautiful chapel and Some volts you see how he used his plants to create rhythm and these plants down there reduced to circles with stripes all over them. So it's it's Mike in Direct Re Rebuttal in some way compliance of courses. I'm Tom to cubism the facto. Sout that the painting is paradigm of disunity. Is Very interesting. Especially when when one thinks of Picasso's Les Avenue where you got the same pink and white stuff going on that's been put on later as an afterthought so this issue of Breaking up the unity of things and then trying to unify with what he called. The Queen of Color Black is again very interesting. Psychologically and this this. This painting is a true psychiatrists conundrum. Let's talk about. Let's talk about the black because one of my favorite quotes from matty's of all is this statement. He made where he's in a piece called. Black is a color and he says isn't my isn't the black in my painting. The Moroccans a luminous black. And that's the sort of oxymoronic idea of a luminous black only a tree master of color and light can achieve that kind of power through using black and not deadening the work it like you say how is it that he unifies a work using black and I'd also say something about as a painter. What does black do in in a in a work is the same as using other colors or does it have properties separate from everything else? Well first of all I'd like to say that Matt Teeth is Commenting now news on wet and one can also If we treat him as a contemporary artists let's say let's mistreating contemporary artists that might be called Hubris because a luminous black is in fact as you said an oxymoron and how US black Olov courses and I use it in nearly all my paintings and I do use it as a collar and I suppose I'm relating in in the way I use it to the the debt in Spanish painting and I'm not using it so much for its sense of luminosity to me. This looks like it's not. I've always sort of. This is a nighttime painting so. I don't see the black Coming out of the painting I see it as a negative and He's held he's asking a negative. Do the work of a positive which is also very interesting because the black is working here like a marriage counselor trying to hold these three separate entities together. These run it through the painting. Let's talk a bit about affiliations with Matisse because as you say we made this film in the Artis Journey Series and I hope that we might be able to find it somewhere and tell people where it is but this is a really interesting thing. We essentially followed in Matisse's footsteps to you had had also very very important formative experience in Morocco which had massively affected your. Can you say something about about that journey? Did you was Matisse on your mind when you first went to Morocco always or is it just a coincidence that latest to Came into being I would not chase was very much on my mind to wrote my thesis on my face on the dance. Yeah the the the big ones the ones that were curved meant to be paying for the band's foundation charming story about that by the white measure did wrong. That's why we have two versions Harris. Musee Doubt Modano Ted Benefit and the other one of course is into bonds foundation. So luckily for us. You know Matisse made the measurements wrong so we had to make again and As Paul Klee said it's mistakes that may caught and I. I'm a great lover of mistakes for a long time Morocco. Partly I think because of its Close relationship with Spain has had this bridge position between Islam and the West and the influence of of Morocco in Spain. Of course is very very strong over there for eight hundred years and the Spanish having denied that influenced embraced it and music too and you get an extraordinary sense of rhythm and a kind of universality of rhythm in Morocco affected me profoundly and it was almost as if found I went looking for and I'm pretty sure that for Matt Tease. It was kind of the same you know he might that famous donkey ride down to tech. Juan Tetouan. Pretty rough place appears in the film. You know I might. We went on a on a couch right down and that was long enough and then feel lower back after you sat on a donkey anyway so he wanted to go into the true Morocco. You know he might have painted intend. Cheer you might beautiful painting of Saint Andrews Church from that hotel window which again I visited in the film but he wanted to get as a kind of universal truth that is still preserved in some of these cultures that we are losing in Michael. Obviously another truth but that truth that we had with the land something that's endangered and that's why he went ahead so so. I went and in fact I was wearing and at the end of June lava which is road. I know sleeping on the ground outside and I just adult. It affected me and body and soul great neck to end on soon. Thanks so much to talk to Pitch Pasha. I saw spat. You can find out more about the Moroccans on the museum about knots website at Moma Dot Org and you can watch Sean scalise artist journeys episode following. Matty's on youtube search for the Sean skelly studio page still to come. We discussed had galleries of various kinds responding to the corona virus crisis. But first he refused the top stories on the art newspaper website. The newspaper has seen a publication on Leonardo Davinci Salvator Mundi which the Louvre printed and then withdrew days before the opening of its Leonardo Exhibition. Last October at least one copy of the forty five page book containing new detailed scientific analysis of the painting was inadvertently sold at the museum's bookshop. Loose spokesperson confirmed that the book was put together in cases. You've got the chance to present the painting in the exhibition. But of course painting never made it to Paris. The museum stated policy according to a spokesperson is not to comment on a work in a private collection. If the work isn't on display in one of its exhibitions but crucially books authors including the curator leave. Exhibition fastened new. Come down in favor of the painting being an autograph work by Leonardo. These broke into the singer. Laren Museum in the Netherlands and stole a painting by Vincent Van. Cough in the early hours of the thirtieth of March. What would have been the artist? One hundred sixty seventh birthday. The museum in the northern Dutch town of Lauren has been closed for several days. Because of the corona vote was shut down the stolen painting. The parsonage garden known in spring made in Eighteen. Eighty four was on loan from the nearby grown at the museum in chronic and finally a bit of good knees. The public appeal launched by the Case Art Fund to save the artist and filmmaker Derrick Jarmin's home and garden in Dungeon S. Kent Southern England has reached the three point five million pound target the campaign to save prospect cottage which was risk of being so privately having its contents dispersed and it's artistic legacy lost was launched late in January more than seven thousand seven hundred donors gave to the appeal. Insuring that this very special house and garden has been saved in the form that John carefully-nurtured ick before his death in one thousand nine hundred four you can read all these stories and of course the latest on the art world effects of the Corona virus at the newspaper Dot Com or on the APP. We'll be back after this. We don't is brought to you in association with Christie's with over two hundred and fifty years of auctions Christie's leads the art world with live and online sales immoral eighty categories Christie's private sales allow for buying was sending finance decorative objects jewelry and watches on your shedu anytime on Christie's dot com. Welcome back now. As I said this week the newspapers reporters have been investigating the ongoing effects and possible future implications of the corona virus for the art market among those rights our our market editors and Brady currently in lockdown in Northamptonshire in England Margaret Carrigan. Who'S IN NEW YORK? And they me now to tell me what they've been finding out Anna. Hello Hi then Margaret. Hallo so am both of you have written sort of long reads this week which both concern the sort of perilous position of the mark. Let's begin with you. Tell me what you investigate it though. I speak to you from the Baker batteries like Monk Limited pace and I've earth housing birth and will say some shippers and insurance and lawyers and economists within this failed to try and get a kind of bird's eye view of what was really going on in the business. And what we can create it really. Is that all of these people. I mean. Nobody really knows how the next few months against play out all agreed that this is awesome unprecedented when it comes some well generally the situation but will say within the art market. So it's not very often you get people like Margaret Immature alive and I say I just didn't really know what is going to happen but it's pretty terrible. But so everyone's really kind of gone into lockdown oversee hunkering down trying to do what they can in terms of these online initiative site. The viewing rooms were saying the seemed to be an initial rash of activity when we I mentioned to down about two weeks ago with the loss of launches of these online things better now that sorta quiet down a little bit and I think people are sort of waiting to see how they work and how long we're going to be stuck in this situation so it's definitely sort of it. It's interesting seeing kind of play out in phases has while and tons of its impact on people. I'm nose sort of really interested that so many people seemed quite discursive in your piece. If you know what I mean there was lots of as you say. There aren't any harm first answers but it seems to me that the market and people within it are trying to search for solutions and won't be a kind of dialogue. I mean that sort of helped your pace in a way that you that you have this sort of discursive feel about the way people feeling yeah. It's quite unusual in that sort of. I think it's quite hard to write pieces at the moment. And then the other sort of style people as you say people people have gotten a lot more time to talk to you as well at the moment and I think this needs to be a need all levels of business to actually talk about it a lot and obviously a lot of people are sitting at home on their own or just with the comfort of other people and they're missing that kind of normal social interaction so I think a lot of people that come just wanting to talk it through as a phenomenon phenomenon as well So so yeah as you say it kind of length quite a different tone to that article. One of one of the things I sort of not from it was that it's clear that a lot of the technologies that have been being developed over many years. Just still on. The periphery of the general activity of galleries in the sense that yes they've been digital offers. We've had online viewing rooms and that's being been sort of oriented with a time but still it still relatively uncharted territory businesses. Don't know how well they can survive for the moment. Just three those mechanisms. Yeah exactly what the thing is. We've never had to rely on them before. Now that option they've been a kind of a jazzy sort of added extra an yes. They've been important in terms of representing a growing proportion of the market. And and gotTa Resales but we have just had them and see any option so now it's RECON starting to show. He's got the most sophisticated this still setups and people really having to accelerate as well their innovation in that field. So that is what what is coming through this thesis of crises often necessitates etc in terms of innovation and and technology and as as we are all experiencing talking on skype now a total change in working practices while an and what face culture tea which. I think is probably one of the most interesting things about about Louis interesting? Basically there is a there is a feeling that this has to change the extent to which it is going to be much more online from here. Yes he sighted that's an acceleration in the innovation increases and there's an acceptance that this has to be an absolutely crucial part of the way things go from now on. Yep there's definitely exceptions to that and I think I think we definitely will sort of live more online after this and more business will be done online. I didn't know that that's GonNa totally take over. I think we would definitely Kinda full back on on old habits and and you know the physical so the human aspect of the art market has always been so important and I definitely think we'll get back to that. It'll be interesting to see how that comes back in there in terms of. I think we're going to need a certain amount of reintegration as while into into the fast pace of the fares world and the and the art market. We've got yeasty and I think that's going to be interesting to see how we kind of get back into that. Because I think a Lotta people probably GonNa fell a little bit. unnerved by being pushed into say a crowded all. Farrell private view or something. It's funny how fast the very concept of that fails quite alien and it was interesting to me that rate you in the interview talked about these other networks that apart of the whole fair ecosystem so yes you got the buying and selling up front but then the phase also creative reproduction of networks more more networks emerged from that sort of social gathering. And that's that's a really interesting point isn't a and again you know the social aspect of the fares and the market generally means that so much business derives from that whereas actually now forced into a situation where that is being questioned. Yeah quiet I mean it's going to be very interesting. The impact that that has everyone always says relationships is so important in this industry and and trust is very important as well and obviously that trust is normally sort of built upon face to face contact and and really getting snow people whether it's the gallery the US by from the adviser of the yours use an auction house specialist. The you know particularly well so all of these relationships are being quiet through tested now and you wonder how how easily we will get back to them and that is definitely the thing that's lost in this online world that we're that we're living on living in. I mean in terms of how many sales on fares it serves big question. I mean nobody. Very hard exclusive true judge that country says in her report response to that says he is survey say about forty five percent of their sales adum sort of three says even if not necessarily out but you know that can vary from business to business. I could take five gallery that I speak to. You says they do about half of this ails really at at us and Mesa Verdes at Maastricht and then a gallery pacer hasn't worked with them said it sort of between about ten to fifteen percent of their sales. They will do office so I think it can vary a lot. Depending on on your business say quantifying the impact of not having these physical events in terms of the sales is quite difficult but I think we can safely say that not having events as far as relationships go is is quite damaging now Mocha you've been focusing much more on an end of the market that. I think we could agrees much more precarious which is young galleries galleries who aren't so well established to turn over smaller and you focused particularly on the rent side of it because this is a massive issue in the New York. Art Scene isn't it? Yeah we'll rent is always an issue in New York and and all the more so now the the galleries that I've been speaking to here New York I basically just to recap broad levels that there is a proposed rent strike not just in Europe but in several large cities across the US. Right now But in New York specifically it's kind of grown out of this this critical mass moment where so many small businesses have been forced to shutter and are still being expected to pay rent while Horner homeowners and building owners have been given a mortgage break for the next ninety days and so this has become A big sticking point for a lot of small galleries who say I just can't make it ninety days of not knowing where my income is coming from like. Maybe I make April rent. But that's all the money I have and if so and so doesn't by the painting they said they were going to buy at armory. You know like day and I don't have any forseeable income for the next several months and a lot of that does happen. Collectors delay payments or. Don't pay upfront immediately. And so there's this kind of suspended animation that so many of these smaller finding it and they don't like an Hussein like no one really knows what the next step is. No one knows what the next week even holds. So how are they meant to financially plan? so without the they're supposed to be about this week on in the state legislature about whether or not there is going to be some kind of relief for smaller businesses and individuals But until then most these guys can't make plans are flat out saying well we. We don't WANNA payment. We do want to strike because if we don't we really won't be here by the time. This is all over Bush pretty interesting again. It comes through you know we talked about and uncertainty in the in the context of Anna's piece. You know what's interesting? Is that the people in your piece of telling you you know. I've got a good relationship with with my landlord or some people don't know their landlords or whatever but that you know that they're looking at their financial future are simply unable to to know what to do in this circumstance. Do they take part in the strike do they? Will there be helpful them around the corner or or or will they be marooned and left with vast amounts to pay a few months time. Yeah exactly and the other. The other piece to this is is that And this is something that the new art dealers alliance has pushed really heavily on. Is that a lot of the small business initiatives that are happening here in the US in in New York. State specifically Will apply to galleries of a certain size but for so many of smaller galleries. Who can't prove you know Revenue Losses of up to twenty five percent because their revenues so intermittent already or. They don't have any staff so they can't prove that they've had to lay anybody off. They won't be able to apply for these relief initiatives so while mid size in in of course larger galleries will be able to reap the benefits of other small business relief funds right now and small business loans these smaller galleries that that are really just operating. Out of tiny storefronts can't pay rent and can't get any relief funds. So it's it's going to change landscape of New York's gallery scene especially as emerging Gallery enriching artisan really heavily. I think in the next six months to year. It'll be a knock on effect for really long time. That's Rudy interesting perspective. Isn't it because it's also in a piece that any shore wrote for the newspaper this week which is about London's younger galleries? Because one of the most difficult aspects of the the sort of more precarious in younger galleries is they. They obviously responsible for a roster of artists but they cannot just guarantee that they continue to can continue to pay them and also ensure the survival of their galleries yet. I I mean it's it's again felt soonest and and miss harshly on the small businesses. Say They don't have much of a set of bath. Financial buffer to fall back on by the logic galleries to speak to you quite a lot of the smaller London galleries On the plus side. They think that there'll be more nimble and they don't have enormous eva heads but again it's sort of how long this will continue for Because you know. They can't live indefinitely in in lockdown with them defunct spaces that they're still paying hefty rents on like in the. Us are awesome. The some initiatives from the government being inched outs mortar firms like business rates being scrapped thirds twelve months VAT payments being deferred until the end of the year and will say these ten thousand pound grants for small businesses. But I think already sort of the practical side of this is proven problematic. People not being able to get hold of these grants and people just not being quite sure how the rules workout landlords included as well So there are some in the in the UK in London as well who are lobbying That landlords to have rent holidays as well say that they can hopefully continue to exist once this once. This is all ever bet. She says it'd be quarry for them and it will knock on quickly to their to their artists as well he they want to be as carry on supporting and these autism. It's not very conducive environment to making work at the moment. If your conscious anxious about livelihood I think too when you're when we're looking at these small galleries Anna so that the same piece that that any wrote We'll Jarvis of the Sunday painter in Vauxhall. London said it's a twentieth century model existing in the twenty first century and that kind of points facto analysts saying earlier about the need for innovation right now and what we can be doing with this time essentially and I think that that is something. We need to examined really closely when it comes to smaller galleries and how they support artists and how they feed the art ecosystem essentially We've known for a long time that the art market is. It tends to gobble up. These smaller galleries artists represent in. They just kind of get pushed through. The system towards the top end and that top end has a lot of installation comparatively right now to the to the emerging end and when we're thinking about what that innovation can look like anyone. We're pushing everything online your speaking earlier. What what's kind of Crucial for smaller galleries is that you know. They don't have the same resources do online platforms. Or because they don't that networking aspect of the art world that has been so fundamental to how business is conducted over the past century essentially They don't have the visibility online. People aren't going to know to search for their gallery. It's not the same as just when you're on an online viewing platforms not the same as popping by booth. And just something catching your. I have to physically click things. You know it's a choice that people are gonNA have to make those networks become even more important and I think some of those will get racist. Things kind of migrate over to the online sphere. And then beyond that. You know when and Georgina Adam owed about this As well this week that even when things do maybe go back to IRA events and more fair's kind of institute themselves like acid that that the feeling will be different and whether people want to go to those as much will be a whole other question and and a lot of those fairs that we might see a lot of consolidation across the board. Some of them might not be able to come back or we'll have to do partnership as other thing and then so that's just funneling things more towards a few big players whether that's a fair group or a larger gallery or anything and so that it's not just What galleries are faces facing in the next three months it took. They're facing and that's three years in the next decade really after this and what this kind of weird period of suspension might mean for that in the long term Slovak supply chain of art. It's really interesting. Point my gash in terms of in terms of the speed with which some of these larger galleries and think you know the logic contemporary art galleries say housing of and worth and and pace and David Zelano their through that really spring to mind that they must lawrence. He's really quite sophisticated online initiative. But but actually what really came through an all cases was the fact that this is whether content teams which they've been building over the past. He is already coming into play as well. You know they've already got these podcasts. And they've already got the in house magazines. Suddenly this still online line and Vade Wolf for free as well and it's quite interesting to see those content at all that content coming in really coming into play now because it returns what we were talking about. This need for conversation as well right now and. That's really helping this bronze to keep alive and helping them to be in touch with with their clients and wider audience as well and and unfortunately no. That's just not something. That smaller operations can afford to half's so Margaret. That really interesting. What you say about the the idea of the sort of a twentieth century model to in the twenty first century. What do you? I was anybody. Suggest to you what a twenty-first-century model might look like. Because surely that's that's key is if we if we're to emerge from this. I'm with with a with a sawtooth solid and creative grassroots gallery system. Are they going to need to shift? Or they're going to need to be mobile connections to public institutions for instance. I can't take credit for those words. Inference that was that was will jarvis but I do agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly. Do think it's a topic of conversation that's been going around for quite a long time in the art world about how everything is kind of based on a on a nineteenth century retail model and. I don't know that we have the answer yet and I think that I do think that there are proposals. And I wouldn't want to speak to those authoritatively without doing more research or speaking to people that are actually trying to pioneer those. I don't think that those are embodied in things like the online sales platforms that we know exist already. I will That's my personal. I think ultimately those are digital recapitulation of the twentieth century model. So I think we really need to think about like you said where support comes from. Eric does it only come from galleys. Do Institutions need to get more involved? How closely does that start to fly near even more outdated patronage model? So there's a lot on the table to work with per se technologically speaking. It's just how we leverage those tools has to be different at so far. I don't know that you know something like David. Warner's online model. Is Leveraging the tools any different? It's just migrating it online Okay well thanks for joining us today at and I think we're going to be writing thinking about this very holiday for the coming weeks. Thank you thank you. Treat Anna Margaret Stories and any shoes piece on London's younger galleries visit your newspaper. Dot Com all the APP. And that's it for this week you can subscribe to the east paper at New York. Newspaper DOT COM COM. Subscribe Link to the top left of the homepage. Please subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already done so give us a rating or review if you can also find us on twitter at tannadice and on facebook. Instagram and telegraphed you can find the telegram invite code of the top of update newsletters the producers of the. We cannot argued him housekeeper. Eighty Dourson and David Clarke. David's the editor. Thanks to write to Sean and Margaret. And thank you for listening. We'll see you next week by China. We cannot is brought to you in association. With Christie's visit Christie's come to find out more about the wealth leading auction house. Six seven hundred sixty six look shen private sales online anytime.

USA Morocco Europe Anna Brady New York UK the art newspaper Matisse Maastricht University School o market For Galleries Maastricht London Sean scully Christie Boston Museum of Modern Art professor of finance China Margaret Carrigan matty
Cancelled: should good artists pay for bad behaviour?

The Art Newspaper Weekly

53:36 min | 3 weeks ago

Cancelled: should good artists pay for bad behaviour?

"We cannot is sponsored by Christie's visit. Christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction house in Seventeen, sixty, six auction private sales online. Anytime. Hello. And welcome back to the Wiki not I'm Ben League. This week. In our first episode of this new series, we look at so-called cancel coach. At what point should not actions make us question the validity their work? I talk to Eric Qatada matters of Wellesley College. He's writing a book on immoral autists about how useful the notion of cancelling may be and with the newspaper correspondent Tom. Seymour I'm a photographer and lecturer Louis. Bush, we explore the cases of Martin Pau David Allen Harvey to photographers whose activities have recently come under scrutiny. And we're continuing our series work the week this time, the artist virus-stricken talks about Robert, Smithson earth work from nine, hundred, seventy, the spiral jetty before that a reminder that you can catch up with the newspapers other podcast a brush with for in depth conversations that I had with artists about the art books music more that have defined their life from work. The artists series one of my college Jimmy Savile, Shanto Joffe, and rashy jumped soon you can subscribe to a brush with on Apple podcasts spotify or whatever you're listening now. and. We've also launched a book club at the newspaper with news excerpts, interviews, live events, and more. He can sign up to the monthly Book Club newsletter and indeed all of our newsletters at the newspaper Dot. Com Click on the link at the top right of the page. Now. Canceled culture is a term that's been banded about loosely over recent years but what does it mean and what are its implications well, to try to unpack it? I spoke to Eric. Atallah matters an associate professor in the Department of Philosophy at Wellesley College. In Massachusetts, he's writing a book on immoral artists. Erica wanted to begin by asking general question is cancel coach even a useful term. That's a great question to start with. I think that canceled culture is an idea that we need to grapple with because of how ubiquitous it's become So if you read almost any publication, you're gonNA hear so much about canceled culture these days but I think ultimately when we try to sort of get under the surface and figure out exactly what cancel culture is it becomes pretty unuseful term because so many different. Ways of approaching the immorality of artists get lumped in with canceled culture So. For instance there was a lot of discussion in the past. Year about cancelling the the artist again and the New York Times ran a big story you know is it time to cancel Gauguin and there there was a lot of discussion about it. But then when you actually read the article I, there wasn't anybody in the article who is critical of Gauguin who really wanted us to rip Gauguin off the walls or to stop looking at again or thinking about Gauguin with they really wanted was just a for everyone to take seriously. The morally bad things that Gauguin did right abandoning his family's sexually exploiting to hitching girls and the way in which some of his bad features, her show up show up his work. So there's a danger I think in talking about canceled culture or just using the general umbrella term canceled culture if it's going to obscure the more nuanced ways in which people are asking us to reckon with artistic morality not just saying, okay you're done a erased gone forever right but oftentimes just taking seriously the fact that sometimes artists do terrible things and that's something that we need to think about in relation to their work itself and I think that's really something that's lodging Gauguin's work isn't it? It's not like he's creating abstract paintings. When he's in Tahiti, he's depicting his life. They're very graphically and it's writ large on the works. We can see the kind of life is living. So it is in no way and appreciation of the content of the work to talk about what he's up to. Right. Exactly I mean, it almost seems bizarre to display these works without explicitly discussing or that context and how he's there and what he's doing and what's going on in the work right as if there was something dangerous out talking frankly and seriously about aspects of his work that have you know objectionable or immoral character to them you know that it's right there like you say So I think that that's a case that makes it particularly strange to act as if there's something that's going to be wrong or or harmful about about thinking about these features I mean I think that you know the way in which it gets framed by some. Curator's or or museum. folks is that you know they worry about the work being boycotted and it's not as if that never happens or nobody calls for that kind of response. But I certainly wouldn't say that it's the norm and I think that if you know museums galleries were more proactive about taking seriously these aspects of artists lives that people who want to be reckoned with transparently, there would be less. You. Know motivation for the occasional call to boycott. In the first place. You really interesting comparison between Gauguin and Caravaggio. Who is an artist to also engaged in a very extreme form of morally activity insensitive. He killed someone. Can you expand on that because I think that's a very interesting distinction you make between nine hundred, right so so curve curve osceola murdered somebody purportedly in the course of trying to castrate him So that's pretty bad. That's that's that's immoral behavior. A form that's that's no different in in a number of ways from from from Gauguin's. Most most markedly I think in that. Although, we would have a negative moral reaction to a caravaggio has done CURVA. Jews active murdered doesn't show up in his work as a lens through which we interpret the work. So while there's no reason to ignore it or sweep it under the rug it has less obvious aesthetic significance, our interpretation Carvalho whereas as we discussed earlier. Gauguin's work is emblematic of this certain western white male gaze that involves the EROTICAS -ation exploitation of women of Color and so the things that are. The things that Gauguin did in his life that we judge from a moral perspective, a really integral to his work. And you see other artists than picking up aspects of that. of his work in that way and responding to them in their own arts. So for instance, in kindle, Wylie's series that is grappling with Gauguin's legacy, and so you know one thing that's really important to see I think is that the immorality of artists some of the the bad thing they've done can show up in their work in different ways and have different. Aesthetic significance to how we how we interpret that work and I. Think further thing worth mentioning is that it's important that we still engage with in view the work of morally questionable artists like again because without without the ability to sort of have that direct confrontation with with the work and acknowledging the sins of artist, it makes it difficult to understand appreciate the later work that is responding to and grappling with that legacy. Right? How would you understand and appreciate hindle Wylie's work if you hadn't seen Gauguin. So I think that there there's an important way in which we need to think on the one hand transparently about the immoral actions, artists when confronting their work but in a way that doesn't involve getting rid of that work right or censoring that work because there's an important aspect of our aesthetic engagement with it that is colored by its immorality and that is important for a moral progress even the useless. An example of living artist who has literally had a form of cancellation in the form of close he was due to have this exhibition at the National Gallery of Art Washington but because of accusations of sexual harassment he which he denies. That show was. Indefinitely postponed it certainly hasn't happened and it was it was said to be postponed at the time that is an example of a of a tangible cancellation what do make of that? So I think that actions like that can be. Really useful ways of responding to. Legitimate credible charges against artists and I think that one way that's productive to think about cases like that R is this I think we can distinguish between engaging with an artist's work an honoring the artist, right? So Honoring the artist on putting them forward on a pedestal as somebody to be admired or something that we often do in the arts. And in the face of serious. Those faced by close I think it's reasonable for galleries and museums to say. We don't want to honor this artist right now where we have serious concerns about this artists behavior and I think you know refraining from honoring and the them in those ways is a good way of listening to their alleged victims, taking their charges seriously and communicating to the general public that we're not gonNA sweep allegations against artists under the rug just because they're famous or influential that we are going to take them seriously. Now I think that we can do that as of take those actions without simultaneously thinking that we then also need to call for the systematic removal of any work of chuck close by any museum or gallery right because. There are ways as we've discussed engaging with a work right that don't necessarily need to involve the kind of honoring the artist acting as if allegations of immorality against that, don't matter ignoring their victims i. think there are ways in which we can render these two things consistent. Now I do think that that's hard. That's hardest to do when it comes to the visual arts because the way in which we engage, which with the visual arts, showing a works in museums and galleries feels like it's inherently honoring them much more difficult. I think than in in literature for instance or or film where we can say you know what? We're not going to give any awards or prizes to this particular artists anymore. But you know if you've got a copy of their work, you can read it nothing wrong with that. It's a much harder distinction, two two draw visual arts but I do think that it's one that's worth pursuing. And I. One thing I'm really intrigued about the whole cancer coacher thing is that in some ways by targeting individuals, it allows institutions to. Not Address the situation and we keep seeing this it the blame falls on the individuals, and in some ways, allows institutions to escape addressing their system systemic issues is that your perception or or do you think? Ultimately, by focusing on individual leads to systemic analysis. I am inclined to think that there's too much focus often on individuals rather than on on institutions. I. Think Institutional Changes Really essential to addressing some of these issues that with with artistic morality that we that we keep confronting. A do think that the focus on individuals as an aspect of cancel culture is understandable though because it feels like a response to institutional failure, right? So when institutions don't. Hold accountable when they sweep their odd behavior under the rug or don't take it seriously or ignore is right when they're consistent you know accusations against artists about their their behavior for instance, right? It's understandable that the public would say you know we're going to hold this artist accountable in the way at the institution won't I do think there are risks there So the philosopher Oliphant Taiwo has written recently in the Boston Review about the problem of elite capture in various contexts including identity politics where people in positions of power conservative capitalize on the veneer of. In order to market themselves in an admirable late without really changing much. I think that this does happen in the context of the arts are after there's you know enough momentum surrounding particular artist institution whether it's television network or a gallery can say, Oh yeah, we're you know we're not gonNA forget that guy we're not gonNA show that person's work anymore we're going to completely cancel them but then they don't actually change anything at the institution, right? So they're not making changes to make sure that their staff are more diverse. They're not making changes to ensure that you know when they work with artists they're not going to. Continue to work with people who are credibly accused of predatory behavior right they. They don't make any changes at the at the level that would prevent these things from happening the future. Instead, they offered these particular individual sacrifices so. I do think that more emphasis on institutional change is is really crucial to thinking about how to make changes to the art world that will provide a better. Mechanism for confronting instances of morality whether it's in terms of. Predatory behavior or racism misogyny era of moral issues that arise you do a distinction between bigots and predators, and it seems to me from this discussion that in a way predators. Are. An easier form of. Moral problem to deal with than bigotry because as you say, the big cheese is is much more about a systemic problem than an individual predators is that you're acumen. I think that's fair to say I think that you know with predators it is often easier to identify a particular victim of particular predatory individual, and so we're in a better position to say, Hey, if we can do something to prevent the individual from exercising the power that they have to prey on others right which often in the arts, a kind of social power celebrity. Then we can really make a difference in. Preventing this individual from from preying on people in the way that they that they have. It's much harder to say that in the case of general bigotry right. Obviously. You know all kinds of forms of bigotry racism. Sexism etc. All kinds of victims, right? That's that's for sure but it's it's harder to say, well, this particular artist is responsible for the victimization of this particular individual. Are It so I think there's less that we can obviously do to prevent Particular harm to particular individuals when it comes to grappling with bigotry as opposed to instances of of predatory behavior But that's that's you know just to say that it makes it all the more important that the response that we take to bigotry is of this institutional form that we pursue these broader kinds of STU, systemic improvement, and Reorganization in order to provide ways to address the more diffuse way in which instances of bigotry create victims right in contrast with the more should have one on one individualized nature of predatory. Harm. Okay Eric Silence for joining us on the PUCK customer. So much for having me. Eric Catala Mattis Book on Immoral Autism is published next year by Oxford, university press and you can read some various writings at Apollo magazine's website in a moment we'll discuss recent cancel culture debates around two photographers but I hear a few of the top stories on the newspaper's website this week. The organizers of our Basel have canceled the Fares Miami Beach Edition scheduled to run from the third to the sixth of December amid ongoing concerns over the global corona virus crisis. The Fares Global Director Mark Speaker Director in the Americas. No Horovitz and director in Atlanta Louis wrote in a joint letter sent to exhibitors the impact of Corona. Virus limitations uncertainty about the staging of large-scale events, international travel restrictions, and bans as well as quarantine regulations within the United States and internationally gave up Basel no other option but to cancel the twenty twenty addition. Tate Taurean Albert Museum Entre Pompidou have defended their partnerships with state-owned companies in China in the face of mounting criticism of the country's extensive human rights abuses. Cristina ruas is detailed report explores the museums lucrative deals in the context of growing evidence of the detention of Muslim Wego, people in the Ching Chang region. The crackdown on protesters in Hong Kong and Pervasive State Censorship. In, an interview with the newspaper, the artist Iowa way says that if organizations do not question Chinese state power, they become complicit in. And finally, Nancy Kenny reports that star from the Louvre Museum and the Directorate General of Antiquities Lebanon of began overseeing work on a joint rehabilitation project at the National Museum of Beirut, which was heavily damaged in last month's explosion in the city's port area. The blast destroyed the museums, windows and doors and cool serious damage. The security system teams from the loose departments of near eastern antiquities. Architectural heritage and gardens have been assisting the directorate general mapping out a recovery plan. You can read these stories and much more at the newspaper Dot Com or an APP for Iowa's can get from the APP store. We'll be back after this. We cannot is sponsored by Christie's not in the autumn season without coming sales in New York Paris and London. Christie's twentieth century sales celebrate the emergence of defining will not era to the cutting edge contemporary out today. Highlight across salerooms in Crete masterworks by pollock known in addition to a superlative watercolor example by Cezanne leading the sales in New York. Discover the season's top works and collections and explore related features in advance. The highly anticipated sales beginning in October. The refresh schedule compliments, Christie's only and private sales, a free bid biotic anytime, and from any way find out more Christie's. Now, the world of photography has been shaken by two recent stories that have brought the culture around the discipline under scrutiny pressure built on the photographic agency Magnum after the photographer and writer. Andy, day wrote that an image taken by the American photographer David an-and Havi part of a series title. Bangkok Thailand prostitutes featured an almost naked, fully identifiable and allegedly prepubescent women in what appears to be a ankle brothel apparently taken from the perspective of a client seated on a bed, which the goal is approaching. Magnum used the keywords prostitute and girl thirteen to eighteen years in the description of the image. MAXIMUS pledge to immediately launch an in-depth internal review into their archive of more than a million images. Meanwhile, coach debate raged about another of Magnum's members. Martyn paw he quit as the artistic director of the First Bristol Photo Festival. After it emerged that he promoted an entity to book which featured Racist Spread of images, Mercedes Baptize Holiday a student at University College London driven eighteen month protest against the book and Paul's involvement. I spoke about these stories to Thome CMO of correspondent at the art newspaper who specializes in photography and his push photographer who leads the photo journalism documentary photography course at the London College of Communication. Tom Joining US pleasure and Louis. thinki-. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Lewis in a piece on your website you've questioned whether magnum is really doing all. He can in relation to the David Allen Harvey case because there's a sort of partial razor in the sense that the images have been taken down but could magnum have been doing more. Yeah absolutely starting in the case Alan Harvey you have a photographer who basically more more questions have been raised about the nature of the images he produces and the you know the situations in which he's being photographer and one in particular was flagged up like people's very problematic because basically appeared based on the content of the image and the way it was captions were tagged on Acdem- site that appear to show a victim of child sexual piece which. In a lot of countries including UK is legal. You know if if it proved to be the case then sensually Magnum and I've done harvey would have been involved in crime but still again an open question because they claim that was mistaken cell and so forth. And yes, I. Mean maximums response so far as being an investigation and Harvey's been suspended but actually not over that image of something Stu separate from that, which is being a an accusation made against him by someone. The with these people like Harvey is often actually there at the tip of the iceberg and actually what they represent. The reason they're interesting and we're talking about is because they often represent much deeper structural problems in both the organizations they belong to or the. They belong to and I, mean I think certain intends of. Maximum you can definitely make criticism that. Were Harvey's is alleged done. Is a kind of extreme version of stuff that actually lots of mackin photographers have done over the years which is. Basically. To take advantage of people vulnerable positions the distinction with Harvey's work is he's done it in a way which is potentially criminal, and that's why it's to generate lost debate. So yeah, absolutely concern often for me as the actually organizations. Especially, ones that are very focused on their self in which I would say McNamee's. They move very quickly to distance themselves from these people or to. Hide them, and I think the way Harvey is disappeared to a large extent from the maximum websites example of that. In order to protect their brand and their self image but not in a way to actually learns any kind of a longer term lessons about how these things have happened more be done to prevent them in the future in your piece about Magnum you wrote very interestingly about this culture of the prestige of Magnum and how this self image is problematic about in terms of a critical overview of of how it behaves. Can you say more that? Yeah I mean I think it's a two fold problem. One one of the parts of the problem kind of really goes back to McNamara's formation and I, it was created by a group of incredible photographers but at least one of things certainly had a very strong reputation for self promotion and a very strong sense of his own brand and I think that you look at Magny history over the subsequent decades you can see traces of that creation remain. So the brands magnum brands always been caught important aspect of it and I mean. Certainly as a young photographer can only speak for myself often hey, this from students of mine and other people a young photography magnum was this kind of ideal to aspire to and I think it very much. It creates that intentionally that position of itself asked the kind of the apex of the industry. Whether that's true on the question but I mean so. That's already a problem, but then I think what's interesting in the last few years magnum. A lot of face journalism agencies. Has Been Hit by the challenges, there's less and less money available for. Commissioning, for example, original fighter journalism, and so they've increasingly diversified space you could say. So they basically create this kind of magnum. Commercial. Branch, they've been they've been very proactive about in a way monetize ing the brand in other ways things like print sales education that got some very kind of. Things, at least judging by the fees lucrative educational partnerships including say with the institution I teach for an I actually used to teach one of those courses in the interest of transparency I should say I basically stopped because. I was paid very little for its competitive Magnum photographers. So I just get out there but I think so I think this anonymous. As added to the importance of protecting the brand that now, it's not just about the reputation of the office. And their association with Magnum. But he's also actually about their financial kind of the brand's financial security that needs to be protected from these kinds of accusations, and that's one of the reasons list. I think we see these kinds of accusations being dealt in the way it dealt with in the way they have been. Does Magnum have any responsibility to anyone another themselves I mean it's a photographer Ron Organization do they have to publish anything invested in that they're doing is not not the tate or the photographers gallery or another public institution. So why should they published a report in which may well find out some very troubling things? Yeah. I mean it's interesting I. Think quite a few attempts by people to get access to that kind of comes art. So basically after the the. Kind of started this diversification. Campaign. Financially. In terms of membership, they have also done that bit. They introduced the code of conduct for stalkers and apparently that's what Harvey has been suspended. Over. His actions, there was alleged actions considered breach of that code of conduct but incredibly, Magnum from everything I've read refused to release the code of conduct even which seems kind of incredible because you'd think the point of having document line that is it's public and transparent. So. Yeah. I. Mean I think I think whether they released the results of these findings are an interesting question. I? mean say I think they're at day does not very much anyone can do to force them apart from you know in terms of this kind of public pressure for. Greater transparency from them. Roy. So let's move on to talking about a member of the Magnum family has it were. Muslim par to Muthana Law reporting around very particular incident relating to him which relates to a book so. Give us the context of that. So in I think around twenty seventeen, a young black woman from London was bought a book published by an edited by, Martin? Parr. Code London by by Italian photography go GM Bertini. and. In the middle of book as a spread. So to images side by sides. Off a black woman working as a ticket inspector will underground in the late nineteen sixties and she sit sat in a ticket booth almost landed on the ground stumping tickets and Edison next to that. Image at poetry is an image of a griller inland in a cage in London Zoo. Now. She As a result of seeing this spread in this book, which is edited in this being I was. So heavily promoted by mountain power including giving a talk about it. Next your PC signed copies of this book. Yes. Yeah. That I should mention that that he is keen to stress that the Italian publisher they try over egg how much she was involved in the actual publication of the book and edited by Monson PA was a so of promotional. Marketing Excise Vitamin he actually Is. Claim didn't actually have that much over the book, but she launched a campaign against Martin IMPA which included her going to his Exhibition of National Poetry Gallery Time I'm writing taste foundation in Bristol And was essentially ignored. An actually dismissed staff at one point in a in a pretty brutal way and she is she carried on on social media. Mostly, I'm twisted like trying to to raise attention to this to this book and an increasingly more and more people who are interested in photo ethics. STARTED RE tweets. Erin, start to engage with the with the sentiment and over the course of two free is. This, snowballs to the point where. The pressure amounts of power was so great that he he decided of his own a cool to to resign the artistic. Director v Inaugural Bristol Photography Festival. And he's also A. Add. He. Has requested the publishers destroy the original book, which is kind of Williams. To open up an has actually been a lot of. Scrutiny. About other books that he's not is named to over the last few years in particular a book by a Spanish sort of a cold on. A May mispronounce his name but shocker style events called the lights and game, which is essentially images taken moving along Lennon's camera of sex workers working in various parts of Spain. And the photographer posed as a survey wearing a high his jacket and took me took images of of sex workers from a long distance. So obviously without their consent and Paul wrote an introduction to of book basically like celebrating how how. was able to take images of out without the. Without the women's consent a not has also caused a lot of controversy online on his I think fed say very much damaged the reputation of who not until they seem very untouchable pretty much. Louis. What's your take on this I? Mean I'm I find it very, very difficult to understand how multiple could have written something. You know even if he's distancing himself, how could have written something for that book without seeing that image in? The, twenty th century and not thinking it was problematic and not wanting to lend his name to. Take Yeah I mean in terms of the. SPRITE, I find it kind of incredible that anyone born or kind of live in the last sixty years or more couldn't recognize that spreads asked problematic I mean there's a debate about this talk of his original intention with the spread but even so obviously, one of the questions with these things comes down to the question of intent versus interpretation. I just think the intern inevitable interpretation that spread is so problematic over the photographer achy intended to be racist or not is almost besides the point the idea that you re presented. Stimuli addition without at the very least giving context to it. Just seems to me either I mean, basically the to conclusions you draw from that is the power is kind of oblivious to race or equally that he didn't really look at the book before he lent his name to this. Or that he kind of doesn't say problem Amino he picked up on it and doesn't see a problem with not show the pretty come acid, any other kind of conclusions and again Like some of the other examples we've talked about I think for me what it really. Reflects is that It's again a tip of an iceberg thing in the sense Taga talk much more broadly is still very untitled knowledge. The past problem here is very kind of white male middle middle-class. Diverse Magnum. Is Very, for example, isn't very unrepresentative of the world at large because it is largely white men but actually you could say it's very representative of what photography still like which is why to now so. Yeah I mean I think it's I think a lot of the responses. From par you know we're fairly unconvincing. I don't think he really handles the whole thing. Well, it saw including you know his response, the initial criticisms. You do you think it's acceptable? This work could be re contextualised. Could you re we present this work and say they were decree problematic images in an spreads in this book, we need to talk about them is that unacceptable way to deal with or do you think mo multi pause sort of belated for it to be destroyed is is a better response. What's what's the best way out of this? Yes a really good question I mean it's in a way it's a question that people being getting I've. Probably for centuries but seventy four at least since the early twentieth century about this question of you know how much you can take problematic work, conceptualize it, and it can still play a player. All can still have a function I mean also relates this kind of besides at the death of the offer the question again, if you know how important office intentions and also actually the office personality and life is to the work. That they've made and I. I'm very hesitant to offer a definitive answer that because on the one hand. I totally feel that people. People who`ve kind of problematic or exploitative work, and again the example Salfan's. Projects, a good one that tell mentioned shouldn't be promoted essentially. But at the same time, often these works of things we can learn from them, I mean I. so I run a photography course I teach the theory and ethics course unit within the course amongst other things, and actually you know I use a lot of problematic photography in that. Unit, with a lot of conceptualization and warning and discussion with students about because actually often problematic to is the most useful when you're trying to actually kind of teach students what not to do themselves. It's quite hard in is teach students only using positive examples. Equally tons of failed I teach documentary. Photography has a very problematic history so. So I'm resistant, the either of this kind of regime problematic work. There are plenty of examples in other fields, people who have problematic histories, programmatic views, but actually still persist as kind of as fakers, but with the context that's. We don't necessarily approve of this personal their opinions, but they released work has something potentially to offer. With. Context. Is Important to say that when the when I broke the. Vietnamese newspaper. Some of. His family who had to live in initially. You know obviously incredibly upset about about. The accusations of racism and pointed out the jam between himself was alive long anti-fascists campaigner alongside being photographer and any wrote in his original. Introduction to the book that he was interested polemic combinations and he he would use topper fee to make points about how SORTA will essentially an. When I was trying to get people to essentially engagement subjects, I found a lot of people a senior figures in photography as she full power being treated pretty badly and that she felt that the book was. Open to interpretation and that could be a debate about that. But they actually fairly willing to stick their head up of parapet. One person did speak out is sort of Damian, Bosia. Jewish soccer from London and he said you know everyone is just assuming that this is a racist book whereas it from my point of view it is thirty possible but the photographer was trying to display black people treated like animals incarcerates, which you know from recent events like is alive is alive question. The can be represented throughout look so I I actually personally, and I'm willing to save on quite shocking the powers willing to to destroy book And I I think a lot of people find fat that. A statement to be to be putting one of the one of the interesting aspects about this is. Is it possible to present that kind of imagery now? Without having that context explained in the sense that yes if. Any walls, a lifelong anti-fascists campaign A-. To what extent is it need to be spelt out the was an anti-racist combination and how do you do that and still pay tribute to the work? It goes up all sorts of troubling aspects about not just the work, but also the interpretation of the work right so but you can see completely white Mercedes. Baptiste Halladay saw those images and finally found it immensely troubling that a major photographer was promoting this book because. The first thing you see when you see I've seen that spread it looks like an terribly racist offensive spread. So if you know. To what extent do we always need a context I suppose do. Address these new can you present that image again with a context and explain it and can you ever leave an? Spread like that open to interpretation given the history of race relations over the last. Many centuries I mean one of the things about photographers Megyn is you know almost always items Vince application however, not she conceptualize it, there's always an element of. People basically interpreting images to mean things perhaps the offer didn't intend but I mean I hear. That, that's just a caveat. I don't think that's the case here. I. Think you know. I mean basically be completely blunt. This trope of comparing black people to guerrillas has such a long history. I mean it goes back to. EUGENICS and it goes back to kind of Social Darwinism the. A. Photographer intended that I think in a way and he was remiss not to realize it would be red light that I've ever in the nineteen sixties future. I think in the end that's a big responsibility as photographers and it's a very difficult responsibility and I know from my own experience, it's very hard to get rice and you don't always get right is to. These different readings in advance. Failing that where you have historic works that's problematic. It's very difficult to generalize about how much context different work needs. I mean, if you take maybe a very different example like. Say. Say Tally -Tarian art say out from Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia I mean you know I think that kind of artwork. Tony stand it properly needs a lot of conceptualization and when you sit presented Sarah, sleigh is given that when it doesn't have that it is a very strong danger the reverts back to its original purpose as kind of propaganda for an ideology that most people wouldn't agree with. So I mean I think basically In this case, this is the kind of resting state is to reinforce very well worn racist trope, and unless it's very heavily contextualized will almost always default back to that meaning tell me you wrote about photography very broadly as Louis Stirs and you are constantly no doubt writing about morally tricky situations. Yet but I think that's a strength of media. That's the reason why I'm so fascinated by tucker fees, it's a mobile medium which allows people to access corners swelled the of wise. They won't be seen toll we would never get any Sullivan Science vs. Communities, needs, places I mean you know Don mckellar show take I found that incredibly moving and powerful, but he's gone to towards owns all over the world and taking pictures of people in the most a tragic. Horrendous. unimaginably awful moments of their lives and they're you know they're being. Sold now, for lots of money and that that celebrates, it didn't knock off galleries. Don't want to put an end to that. You don't want to limit someone who is winning to t to do that dangerous work but you do the needs to be a conversation in photography, which is reflective of a broader cultural conversations we're having in the world in politics. The fusing of those two things needs to happen. In some way I'm really unsure how it's GonNa turn out I I can't predict box going to happen. Overnight. Okay. Well it's. It's an enormous debate and I'm sure won't be pretending to but for the moment. Tom and Louis Thank you so much for twentieth. Thanks. You can read more of Tom's writings on this subject at the art newspaper, Dot Com, and Louis thoughts at despotic dot com that's D sph ot. DOT, com. And finally it's time for the work of the week. The artist of our is stricken has a show opening at Marian, Goodman in London next week, and he's chosen a similar work of land robot, smithson spiral, jetty nine, hundred, seventy work in which Smith used over six thousand tons of vessel rocks and earth to form a spiral fifteen hundred feet long and fifteen feet wide but winds from the northeastern shore of the Great Salt Lake in Utah in the US you can see an image of the work at the newspaper, Dot? com. Click on the podcast link and look for this episode. To various tell me about why you've chosen SPO- jetty by Robert smithson. I think for the most part whenever You ask someone in the arts of they've seen spiral jetty dancer generally is yes. And then you dig a little bit and then you realize that. In fact when they say they've seen it with a mean as seen a photo of it. And it it raises all kinds of questions that are truly fundamental. About. The nature of of the politics of seeing lesser interesting. So obviously that begs the inevitable question have you made the Pilgrimage to Utah to see it? I would love to the tie all the Times that I've wanted to see the spin on the water. So I haven't seen it watch film and like most people seem the. The photo photo documentation. And and Smith. Film that you can as well, which is so incredibly atmospheric in his own way. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's a kind of a masterpiece in the sense that. It is happening in nineteen. Seventy. Fifteen feet by fifteen hundred feet degrade salt lake. There's a kind of. Moment there are these moments of entropy. There are these moments of visibility and invisibility. That resonate deeply with me. And actually. There's a kind of really nice relationship to thinking about. A site, the I've site in the non-site. Place in a non place in relation to all of the the kind of political unrest happening right now in the world. Can you explain a bit more about that because that's intriguing well, if you think of the If you think of the Black Party. Is a kind of of non site. Then it has is really kind of. Fundamental and dramatic. Relationship between this. This object that comes in and out of visibility. And in and out of focus and I, think Simpson's very much referencing and thinking about. The kind of the fragility of life in and of itself. And I think if you think about. The the kind of diet spark body in the new. World. It's it's a kind of. Potent parallel to think of this these bodies that come in and out of focus. No no visibility. And are, fundamentally. Difficult for the West process and understand. Also has A. Fundamental connection to that landscape and the people who occupied that landscape before in the sense that he was thinking about ancient form spiral forms that were found in the landscape by indigenous peoples right as well. So so in a way. You know he he was reaching back to bodies across history to a certain degree. Yeah I think that's why it's a kind of revolutionary work and I think. It also it it It really. Was One of the early stages of getting contemporary artists think about. Working outside of of a kind of. Political or economic. System. And developed and invented these kinds of systems that. Have a new kind of currency. which becomes fundamental to the to the survival of the spirit of the artist. Yet, the whole idea of entry. This idea that it existed to not exist as well seems to me was completely radical in and indeed within two years disappeared and then stayed disappeared for thirty years. It's sort of this very well documented but also invisible will work is that something also appeals the way that time has its effect on it in that sense. Well. Yeah. I mean I think I think if you imagine the the kind of the brief history of what we would call contemporary art. maybe that timeline forty, fifty years ago. There was no such thing as a black artist, right? That just wasn't a thing. and so this shift from visibility invisibility. I think is is something that anyone who's an artist? an is from any kind of dies Barak. Region on the stance very deeply in very profoundly. So that the the visibility invisibility coming in and out of Focus Is kind of an Ode to a kind of infinite an infinite game that I think's Matson's playing, right? And also minute smithson was deeply shared. So many of your concerns about that those connections between science. and. Brought, a culture right? I mean, he was a he was as much scientific thinker as he was as a visual artist. Yeah and I also think if you if you think about this work in the context of nineteen seventy. And you think about what's going on in the world and you think about what's going on in America? You believe that were actually nineteen seventy right now you mean in terms of. Civil. Rights actions that the protests that were ongoing then and utterly resurrected right now yeah because I, think that was that was a way of making space, right? Tried to create space or at a wasn't wasn't any and I think that's. A lot of what the the earthward project is. About right. About trying to find room when there is not much. Creating a new kind of space, a new kind of place and new kind of location. Took about new kinds of location I'm never to begin to think about this working, which he this enormous ice block from the Arctic. In reference to Matthew Henson this polar explorer that has largely been forgotten like. So many of the people that you you reference in your work and a negatively to me that feels like a very smithson kind of project was missing on your mind. When you made that work on I, think I think smits deeply a kind of important artists for. Almost every artist I think alive today just because like I said so much about creative practice has to do with this creating space. and. You Know Smith was thinking about this idea very early, very early on. and I think what was potent by thinking about Smithson was this idea of. Being able to adopt, and change the conversation. And and you know when Smithson was doing it. Maybe it wasn't the most important thing at the time. But. It's over time evolving itself to become one of the more significant works of. Of the twenty first century and I think that's really that's really. Phenomenal. That he's taken nothing in mid something out of it. Like literally. Think. Majority is not. Welcome. Restrictions Exhibition in plain sight is at the Marian Goodman Gallery in London from the eighth of September until the twenty fourth of October and you can find out more about the spiral jetty. The Da Foundation's website that Dia A. R. T. Dot Org, the art dot Org. And that's it. For this week, do subscribe to the art newspaper in the newspaper. Subscribe Links at the top left of the page and you'll find a range of subscriptions. please. Subscribe to this podcast and a brush with if you ready and give us a rating for review. If you've enjoyed, it can also find us on twitter. And on facebook and Instagram of. The producers of the we cannot rg house. Do Cincinnati. Debut does. Sound design thanks Eric Toma Lewis, and to virus. Thank you. CENEX WE. SAW The we cannot is sponsored by Christie's Christie's dot com to find more about the world's leading option housing seventeen, sixty, six, auction, private sales online. Anytime.

Gauguin London Martin Pau David Allen Harvey Robert smithson Christie Magnum Tom lecturer Louis director the art newspaper Americas Eric Toma Lewis Massachusetts New York Times National Gallery of Art Washin Magnum United States Smith Wellesley College Paul
Top of the Pods: David Hockney and other modern British mavericks

The Art Newspaper Weekly

43:54 min | 1 year ago

Top of the Pods: David Hockney and other modern British mavericks

"The newspaper put coast is brought to you in association with bonhams. Auction is since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bombs dot com. Hello i'm ben luke and welcome to the last of our summer top of the puts what's episodes. A new season of the newspaper podcast starts next week for the last week of our highlights from the two hundred interviews. We've done over the last two years with seeing on david. I hope me and the school of london later you hear my conversation with the critic martin gifford about his book modernism mavericks but i might interview with help me from november twenty eighteen eighteen. We spoke just before he's nineteen. Seventy-two painting portrait of an artist pool with two fingers went on sale in christie's post war and contemporary art auction in new york on the fifteenth of november. It ended up selling ninety point. Three million dollars. Breaking the record for the highest price paid at auction for the work of a living artist. The picture was particularly really price because it's one of a series of three to white double-parked traits he made in the late nineteen sixties and also one of his much loved swimming pool paintings. I'm at houghton at the royal <hes> academy in london where he was collecting award from noise queen sonja art foundation for his lifetime contribution to the art of printmaking can talk about your painting portrait of an artist potato figures which is about come to christie's. I'm interested in the this extraordinary genesis the painting the fact that there was a serendipitous moment we used to photograph to different photographs golfs on the floor of your of your studio and that suggested a com composition this great painting <hes> <hes> well yes and i did. I started to paint in all of it but after a while i thought they annual. I'd done it wrong because he couldn't see. He couldn't actually see this so this is the standing figure. Couldn't i wanted it in a show and y'all so i went down to wadad should've been photographed <hes> which was in <hes> the south of frogs. I went back now did some drawings and then came back to long. Them and i did depending in about three weeks but i was who's working twelve hours a day on it. I mean she's a three meter wide painting so that's that's an extraordinary effort to complete applete painting in three weeks on that sco yeah yeah it was because the mission message from personally day in six months and obviously the same exact scale as mr clark and percy henry guilds all of those double portray and yet it's seen in a way visually feels very different and you're also very interested in this idea of the the figures existing in in two very different spices wanting the one standing looking at the yeah. I thought the painting was quite successful in the show in new york shoulder i'm interested in the way that swimming pool who is presented to kinds of things to you both kind of of a of a kind of lifestyle but also from painfully point of view the real challenge in terms of depicting water. Can you tell me something about well. I'd always been interested in in water glass. I remember a george herbs poin amount remained mind look on glass on it may stay his eye or if he pleases through it pass and that heaven spy by which is terrific thing about looking own glossing through it and i realized in california the swimming pool schnur bit lightness. You could look on the surface of the war so so you could look through it so i mean in california. When i arrived i flew there waited till it bill to nap before i went to l._a. I wouldn't have been in a covered wagon going doing <hes> but <hes> i began to notice the polls and then and i was this problem myself. I'm so i <hes> devised ways to do it. That didn't look like aac photographs some photographs of it just a frozen moment. I knew dancing lines one. It was and so that's what i did. I only did about twelve who things i mean i didn't do that. Many lots of people would have turned them out as always always interested in other things as well really did. A lot of people have seen in your paintings kind of knowing knowing kind of not to abstraction and almost a criticism of abstraction is that was that in your mind or is that not historian reading that insult we'll <hes> nowadays i mean i can see why european needed up strikes chinese china's on japanese didn't because they always knew or obstruction laws. I mean scuola. All is rock is an abstraction. The japanese print his obstruction well the reason obstruction in resonated in europe as it was because of the photograph. <hes> people saw the photograph unsal well. If thoughts going to be the photograph the photograph needed shadows didn't it because optics needs shadows and <hes> i have pointed out for instance in the musee dossier in paris which is a museum of the nineteenth century and when it it begins there's lots and lots of cairo secure but when he ends most vicious this is gone nuts goff <hes> matisse voschana but there's no explanation given for this well. I know it i know so obstruction was necessarily <hes> great claims names were made for it's actually in the fifties and sixties and i saw that gone much too much action so but i mean i was influenced by those ideas i mean <hes> <hes> obstruction destruction is i mean what would you have otherwise in naturism not that good things now <hes> <hes> but i'm still going on with this. Now i mean i'm still fascinated by <hes> but i geico see now ways ahead cow. We're here at the royal academy because you're being presented with an award for a lifetime achievement in printmaking. Can you tell me about what print making means to you how important it's been to your practice. Well first things i did in prince listed graphs which i did at the bradford school evolves i just printed inch five or six of them then the royal college of art when they used to give you free three hardboard but i'd run out of paint on how much money so i went in etching touching department because they gave the plates away and so i could count and working <hes> and i did and i just did some etchings and i didn't print many then and <hes> i then got the prize for one of them <hes> <hes> in nineteen sixty one on without money one to new york <hes> she became a subject for a whole group of prince yes <hes> because <hes> when i was on the bowery and you saw these homeless people google which one in london then and so i thought low <hes> new yorkers more like ho- golf's london and <hes> so i thought of doing a version of it ray stroke this <hes> <hes> i made one <hes> and then the royal college of all on seeing me doing them then and suggested i could extend it to <hes> twenty four etchings. I wasn't sure about now anyway and did <hes> sixteen. She's twice walked hoga's did then i i sold those are sold. The whole editions additions for five thousand pounds must have been extraordinary liberating. We do that yeah and then i went into california without money and stage of six months and a lot more painting than <hes> so printmaking certainly helped me for a long time a nine <hes> i did. I did some all prints in california then. I did some with ken tyler <hes> <hes> he's a master printer a great master printer and then i did i did those pay pools with him but they one technically prince each mom was an individual piece <hes> but we did those and gone then i made more prints gemini and then i didn't do any of while then i started drawing on an i pod and just send them out out of friends so i did with them and then eventually a we've printed some of those some in one side go on nipe pod. I saw the i was a new medium really you draw on in glass with a lighted background liu things and <hes> when i i was one of the first table to get an ipod it was out in california we got one seven to ten and i experimented experimented with it for six months and i got raw the good on that <hes> uh-huh i tried out every brush things on this brushes out and then dan i realized i could do day arrival of spring and twin to eleven on the i pod on. I drew about ninety actually giving the council the arrival of spring. I mean it began with the snow on vote gate ends with all the blossoms things. I am not too <hes> for months. Actually i made about ninety but in the end we we just reduced it to fifty which is in mountain show at the royal academy and then later on we printed house oh so yeah so d._c. In a way that the surface of an ipad is something akin to a plate or lithographic stone <hes> <hes> not quite because you drawing on with kala on in <hes> the kala <hes> was <hes> quite subtle. I would draw on it and then print them. Nate was the prints fringe. I was interested in so sometimes <hes> you might have four greens on the ipod. I pod and you can't quite get them printing so i would exaggerate that. Go back to print and <hes> what i felt i to do. <hes> i drawn with the computer future longtime before but <hes> we'd had to go down to wiltshire to do this sure because the computer was the size of a room or something i mean now on i i mean but why niger drew on it was always a little late you draw a line and then the line would appear well. That's not much good for a drive not much also i- i mean i just do some drawings on that night bounden it. It never got good a gay in till <hes> <hes> about i mean it was after twenty hundred <hes> <hes> when i drew on a tablet than a new two jaw looking here jaw things i i did did <hes> some portrays on trains but <hes> when i go tonight todd i thought this this is really subtle because you can. I mean the line appears exactly the same time <hes> knots <hes> mostly what i've dumb in prince <hes> but i am planning now to go to norman day in march and i'm going to do the arrival level of string in normandy next year. Do you anticipate it. Being significantly different to the era of a-list bring wave yes yes first of all as a lot more blossom apple blossom cherry blossom pablo soon <hes> blocks home blossom halsall blossom <hes> also i've just been in normandy on and i saw the bio top astray <hes> i think a my do unlike the bio toughest office to begin with trees into winter things it's a great work lives marvelous was and i did notice it contained no shadow of so my question for the artists story was mended. Shadows stops ops in european now yeah. Did you get an answer now. Hover i mean it's about fourteen eighteen twenty right we've had today. There's going to be uh van goffin hockney exhibition account let you go without you. Are you telling us a bit about now. Well they always wanted to do on the main day half of their artists dan <hes> they'd asked me two years ago and i couldn't do it then because of <hes> other things <hes> <hes> now doing it it's opening and and the february <hes> i mean chameleon was not much competition rarely <hes> but <hes> van golf is a great great page. I mean he. I'm pointing out. He could see very very clearly very clearly and he knew we could see clear l._a. And <hes> i think i achon see quite clearly non clyde light on off <hes> but <hes> van gough too many fried. I am much and i think he arranged because that's why and three years he did all out. Were a community couldn't have done if too many friends is a fascinating artist. I jus- this thread biography them. It's very very good but he just gene misses out. I mean it makes audi was rather miserable person and <hes> things but above when he was changing he wasn't miserable. I mean he loves painting. He could say could see very clearly really he had ideas about color space <hes> color joyous <hes> that still joyous still on <hes> so i agreed to do show that amine then maybe okay. I don't know but anyway i'm going. I think a lot of other people beginning to dave took me. Thank you so much for joining. He's the critic engage with is is one of the few people who can claim to have been painted by hockney. Annely seemed freud in recent years. Gay foods published several books relating to these two artists including man with a blue scarf a kind of dario arif sitting for freud and history of pitches collaboration with hockney exploring how artists of represented the world across the ages. He's recent won miss. The mavericks looks at freud and hope me again but this time in the context of that peers in post war london from francis bacon to bridge riley. I spoke to at the national portrait gallery in london in june twenty twenty eight hundred most and i think the striking thing about this book is that where other books have been very about very close connections with individual artists assists. This is very much looking at a broader seem. You tell me a bit about why you wanted to do that. Well i have this all alive of <hes> of <hes> interviews with <hes> office <hes> which stretches back into the late nineteen inches so <hes> i've talked almost le- importance people in this story and also dealers and <hes> curious as well so <hes> it struck me that it was possible to do or might be possible to do as i've described it as a core were had a a a what was just something like an old history with a lot of different voices in it and what i was hoping to do was to <hes> <hes> get at the way in which these people's lives and careers and styles were interwoven. Everyone was living in london a a lot of them drinking and socializing and meeting each other falling outs arguing but interchange interaction in guy on all the time so that actually i thought it was worthwhile trying to do with it as a as a whole question restricting myself to the genre of painting painting all the medium of paint is interesting because there have been various attempts to ryan so to harness these artist into groups the most famous being the school of london which which which is of course choline by an artist in kibuye but it's they've always seemed inadequate in the office of rejected him. Yes they oughta. Yes the artist third like the labels. In fact the artists no artists like mabel virtually as extreme on common to find an artist who accepts label but in this case school of london don is particularly on explanatory. Actually it wasn't really intended to describe the movement in the first place by a kid. I think what happened. Historically kid i came came up with this phrase meaning london's bit more important artistically than has been realized there there is this group of major artists working on that's solely meant start up with had them paint <hes> painting was revived in the eighties and people started to try and analyze it as a group and in fact all the different accounts of the schools have two different people included in it so there's absolutely no it wasn't a group. There's no manifesto. There's no consensus about what it was. Who was in it is hard hodgkin's london's. It's impossible to say these books in days so tell me about this little the connections than because of course they were important duos and trios and compensations in pubs and restaurants and all that kind of stuff so in a way that they would they were very strong alliances forged. Yes there were certainly social networks and indeed interconnections between different networks alexa so you knew i discovered was a great friend of a castle so you wouldn't expect they seem to belong to slightly different groupings actually though if you do the dog remove you'd get one of these case sponges whip skeins certainly that was socializing in soho and that was not basins headquarters weird address on compton street the colonie <music> a drinking club on dean street. You would have filed quite loss of major artists on any given day perhaps drinking and in talking chatting in those places whether those were the places where people talked about art is is another question actually my mindfulness. I actually on the whole <hes> one of the attractions of color is people didn't talk so they knew each other but maybe maybe i talked about painting more in the studio or oh something but baker was talking to people on the other hand is not ready imitated bacon via most impossible difficult model solution use in four actually silent siren an album that are also generous that these people who convention included in the school completely different different and actually frank albuque- told me that when he first encountered the bacon and freud bacon's painting was the opposite of what he was trying to do with his dramatic khuda future bay was that was why he said listens painting <hes> which he used for which he used the word limiting which is what these miniatures image this precise data that was the officers officers but frankly trying to and listen she just naturally later became an avid electoral auerbach's work when he first saw it start him has being a tiki threatening kind of mess so there was actually there was not that much common ground at more common aspiration pastors taking the subject subject seriously. That's it in a way. There was a commitment to excellence in whichever kind of language they were using that for yes. I think one thing they did was was set the target really high in fact almost impossibly high so he felt he was always missed it himself but <hes> but the idea would aim for even though you were never going to get to reprint level picasso level that was really that was really the point of it. There was any point in doing it and just to turn out product. Just produces reasonably sellable work. You're always aiming juicing something really models basi- it's felt i think you you always hate the next picture literally one of the things about these. He's not only is this sort of fundamental style very differently but the ways that they work rule very different as well. Don't you think about the especially the difference between bacon and freud. Yes <hes> well. It's if one were to categorize office according to speed on us <hes> speed on bacon. It's probably was probably quite close to to these van coke. I would perhaps be false dist painter in history juice a major painting on our bacon the bacon according to this and would often do something in a day he goes to the studio and what you think of it whereas loosen couldn't paint anything like that rate. He just was impossible him to do what he wanted to do. You own leader is very very slowly so he was his right foot. Producing a medium size portrait had would be about six months of of sitting several times a week and how long was the painting that e set fool. It was about that was about it. I start at the end of one october. We finished finished the end of the following june. Can you tell me a bit about the ritual because he did stick to very particular structures in ninety yes and in his life. He's <hes> one of his beliefs. In a bit of a fancy had about himself was that he didn't have any habits but he suddenly had timetable. He's life <hes> professional operation todd according to ridges attention to time and you had to if you'll painting walls a evening painting is mine was a night paint a you had enough at the appointed time is six o'clock in my case and the painting had to be done in darkness walk light and it would have been quite impossible to paint a night picture by naturalized vice versa so what happened was the end because we started doll. She's a nice withdrawing and it was dollars. Put it up. I six i ride and by the following june did get dulken. They'll help us now so we have to draw the shots as create artificial talk miss carol. Where can you tell me about the conversations that you must have had when he was painting you you there was some painters who have very very verbally communicative painting allows them missile to enter into a rhythm but what was it like what he was a brilliant conversationalist association list and he talked extremely well in a way which i suspect was adapted to different cities so so in my case of reminiscences about say francis bacon meeting picasso jake amancio the things which he doubted. Please fell off a correction. I'd be interested other people who might get horse racing it also subjects he could talk about had had a child says he took out a lot animals <hes> and i think it was important to listen to to keep the <unk> a entertained as possible because of this very prolonged working process he had the secret anxiety was the city which is fed up and so i've had i've had enough of this. I'm just always up anymore and that did happen. How're pinter is an example of somebody who turned turned up for a few sittings and then said i just had no idea what this is. I'm sorry i come to this so there's there's the beginning of a picture heralded. A couple of how does is i stagger out <hes> so do try as hard as he could to make it good and it's taming this move on to help me now. I'm interested in this moment because the numbers of freud and bacon bacon by can sustained success through most of his career but certainly freud had a sort of a big deep deep in his career which seems impossible now when you think how much she's painting sell for at orchard etc etc but he did have a big which coincided with hope means rise and papa did you did you. Have you had a chance to talk. Did you have a chance to talk with freud and have you had it with me about that the connection between between the two fifty so hosting and the popo moment as it were. I think it was not so much. Poll has abstraction the first thing that talking he said to me about this period. I said the first thing to to know about the sixes walls abstraction ruled and that actually aloha company was very successful veggie from the word gary. Go was <hes> something he was very aware of that. He was virtually the only figurative painter in kasmin stable. Kazman had display fashionably stream. The elegant gallery of babylon street suppose betty white cube but most of his office will call philip obstructions in fact kind of nolan's and morris louis and all sorts of big american office. Anthony caro and richard smith and hockney actually was always is the only exception and it's there is an argument that hawk me in some ways wouldn't have become hop nope he had been in this environment where he was exhibiting not next to but just after people doing these great big abstract paintings the sixties were actually sort of work is a reaction to college strategy different houses that were off it but moving back into figures areas now hopefully is m again. It's interesting. We're talking about mavericks which will give artists that can't really be fitted into schools. He turned you never defined himself as papa's even though to sort of course with debate he emerged from scene which kitai was seen as a real gold the road college and i think again. That's something that's been some forgotten. Kita was a real perceived a real genius in that moment yes is reputation a <hes> <unk> old case types to terrible tumble in britain as a result of the show in nineteen ninety four and and i would say that he's probably a suitable case for reassessment and <hes> also that he's reputation probably hasn't tumbles extent elsewhere a few years ago. I saw an expedition hamburg. Oh quetta's work <hes> which walls <hes> i thought made a very strong case forget i as a now where to said underrated but very interesting probably important hottest however some something which could high party did like to hear but i feel true so that show i just hit max beckmann and jumping expressionist up to the next building and he thought he looked more in context actually and that european <hes> patiently context and he does in london. I thought the all too human <hes> tate britain the moment which got him opposite. My landry's a is actually a rather. It's one of those comparisons on papa- deepa seems right but visually seems all wrong because the color engines where they handle paints different. That's that's to summarize is cut kit kit. I think his his star may rise again the hot me. It seems to me as an artist who doesn't tend into like looking back. Is that your experience of him. Did you find that he was very forthcoming. In terms of thinking about this period of the fifties and sixties well he he'd and reminisces but i think as far as his own work is concerned. He said when the <hes> big retrospective was big put together. That's essentially throughout his life. You'd never looked back to. I think psychologically healthy frame of mind to be essential frame of mind for anybody. Who's trying to do something creative frankel box. The same thing to me is in the book that it's <hes> actually if you don't think the next thing you can do is get you can be better than the loss not much point in carrying out so you always have to have that belief in the hope so you don't eh dwell on the postal that you maybe presently surprised by all you see it again on a decent bit anxious when old work surfaced officed came to auction as i would be good enough whether you pepsi shouldn't've release them from the studio and i hope me was i was pleased actually to disease laid out that big joe did seem to hold up and what about the purchase of sitting for him. You had these very long conversations about art history. Yes it do the conversations continue through the sitting process. Does that is part of a continuum lord allies moments when you're sitting for him so to very separated out from those conversations <hes> david's methods certainly set me with the eighty two traits and wants to life wish my the picture of me was was very different. <hes> ready the programmatic from <hes> nuisance so that every picture was supposed to take about twenty hours which is maybe three days. He's sitting something approximately that which is quite foster on that speed on until we were talking about this other closer to the speed painting they've very slow process and <hes> then. I should think this is <hes> snowball with david. He was just concentrating extremely extremely hard while he was painting so that was more silence. I mean occasionally his assistant. Jump as a collapse in naples yellow or could i have some pains gray hair on the job would come forward with cheaper paint that kind of thing or could you move your your foot slightly back but no addict i saw the kind of thing which <hes> designed to entertain the the the us the center of the renton full now in your conversations with him but history seems to me that he thinks he's always trying to find a new angle on on things again and again. This sort of sense of way searching for the new always trying to find different perspectives on everything is that is that your experience of well he sunday any of that david i would say has a profoundly original mind and he is a strikingly fearless person which is perhaps a necessary go through the having a major artists he's he. He has no no this is completely recasting history or re read you owe me talk about this out history just passively accepting it and that was a the interests may of his book with him that he's got this this reading a what a picture involves the intimate connection painting and photography and even fill <hes> computer graphics and how these all together which is not actually a perspective that anybody else's ever articulated take right right now. Tell me what you've learned from doing this book looking back over these over these interviews about london in that postwar period it could feel it's any more sort of coherent as a period as a result looking back or is it sort of does it remain rather elusive an-and gross bubble in some way i think that <hes> my conclusion that also starting point his is the abstracts and figures if policies so to speak when a much less widely separated than nude that is conventionally eventually thought bacon was rather rude about abstraction at coaling jackson pollock painting late of old lace but actually he was is also quite interested in abstract expressionism. He's he's. He's disappointed by t. V. and albuque- rowdy abbvie says he thinks abstract expressionist well one of the great mode moments in trying to send you out his cubism than than the the next big thing that happened was abstract expressionism so he he's very ivan to the kooning and pollock and cypher and a lot of the <hes> atis. I'm in writing about actually belonging sort of hard to define frontiers own howard hodgkin for example nov. It looks abstract. He insisted it was was representational of emotional situations and sometimes it's a bit representation as a he's. He's between the two poll. I think it my conclusion will it's hangs together but more like a a ah the maps that neil folks and hasn't his book called the tower in the square about networks which networks have different polls and <hes> <hes> connected by multiple cobweb or cats grade lines. I think it would it works like that so they're a pure occupations that run through a lot of people but the <hes> <hes> expressed in different ways and <hes> <hes>. They're all no real movements. Thank you so much for joining us. Mooney's mavericks biking freud hotly in the london painters is published by tim's in hudson mountains is latest book. The pursuit of art travels encounters and revelations again published by thames and hudson is out on the nineteenth of september and that's all for this week you can catch up on all the latest talk with us at the art newspaper dot com or on our app for i._o._s. Which you can find at the app store september print edition of the newspaper is also out now on the website website. You'll find a range of subscriptions so you can read our content seamlessly across multiple platforms and do subscribe for free to update newsletter related stories. Go to the newspaper newspaper dot com and click the newsletter link at the top right of the page. Please subscribe to this book because wherever you normally listen to them and if you enjoy it leaves a rating or review on apple podcasts it helps us to find us. You can follow us on twitter at ten audio and russo on instagram and facebook. The art newspaper is produced by judy housego. Amadou allston and david clarke and david is also editor join us next week for a first puck gust of the new season. We talked to the actor timothy spall about mrs larry and some the new film of at the british painter l._s. larry we also have an interview with the artist christophe and jasmine thomas given was showing together at david stern gallery in london seething in the newspaper and associations with bondings near since seventeen ninety three <music> to find out more visit oldham's ten <music> <music>.

london freud bacon david school of london california new york francis bacon howard hodgkin hockney mavericks christie normandy europe ben luke wadad The art newspaper china royal academy houghton
Anselm Kiefer interview. Plus, New York auction "gigaweek"

The Art Newspaper Weekly

37:51 min | 11 months ago

Anselm Kiefer interview. Plus, New York auction "gigaweek"

"The newspaper put coasties. Brought to you in association with Bonhams. Auction is since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bombs dot com. Hello and welcome to the art. Newspaper puck cursed. I'm Ben Luke. Thanks expert joining US later. In the past we take the temperature of the art market in New York auction week but I am still keefer. The German artist has a new show at the White White Cube Gallery in London. And typically. He's taking on big subjects this time the scientific concept known a string theory characteristically keefer explores this mathematical muddle little imbo sculpture and painting with a much broader cultural and historical framework looking back to ancient mythology are contemporary art correspondent. Louisa Buck went to what keep cheap to meet him so unsettling the title of this exhibition that fills white. Cuban Bergonzi is super strings. RUNES GNOMES Gordian Knot. I mean that's quite a lineup. This artists but let's just zero on the super strings. This particular body of work is largely underpinned by recent explorations in string theory. Can you just talk a bit about what's brought into string theory wife. I did this paintings about Mattis. Peration I kinda done a stint ten string theory. It's so complex and so difficult and I'm not a mathematician and I read about outs in. I think twenty five years. Perhaps a read about string theory in magazines at one magazine I have. It's called a MM spectrum and they're all the new discoveries in Mathematics Chemistry Physics and and I'm really leap fascinated because it's such a vast nola Julia who develops there and and and I can always sees a connection between the old meath and the new Future explorations in physics by example but string theory. As far as I know I go to limited knowledge of these things but it hasn't actually been empirically not proven by rules or formula yet. It's still up for interpretation. Not One formalized proven by experiments normally family of physicians. They they have an idea. They have an intuition Einstein head in nine thousand nine hundred seven also and the heaven new idea about the about the context of and then batiks time until it's proven by experiments and in the case of Einstein was proven once I think ten years later also and then he goes nobre overpriced because then they thought it's religious but concern exists string theory. Nothing is proven is that what appeals to you the fact that it started with intuition intuition and it hasn't actually been hammered down into a set of rules you know in the aren't nothing is provable. You cannot prove you can approve by the deduction that this thing is a best always better than the other you cannot you you you can pretend and art is potentially it's proof is almost like a literal illustration of strings literally their wrought in these thirty enormous veterans for me to hide that run down the central corridor of white cube full of a tangled mass of wires cords all kinds industrial wiring foaming strings intertwined with mathematical theories also written on the on the glass. Is this kind of literal. Tend to give some. I'm kind of expression to this. Intuitive Tangle of unresolved theory. It's naive you know then when you are naive you have big take advantage. You can do what you want. And it's I heard about strings and I started with the mathematics and then I had by accident I bought. My neighbor was an industrial plays simple to new property in devils off. Aw this this electric stuff in and I said don't be they know they have any anything away and I held at. It's my strings string. It's naive but then I had later when I had already done some paintings that came to Titian he came in in my studio. That's it can you imagine. A mathematician about string theory. I I liked it you know. I didn't need to prove the paintings assembly but it was a nice nice exit so also also with your tangle of strings also bring in references to ancient Nordic figures the nor death at the spinners of feints and also ancient runes ancient letters as well so you'll still weaving in literally as well as quickly mythology as well as science. Since I started to work. I saw that all the means you can find in north in edged into berea in the Baruch on. They're all connected you know and you can even prove how certain people's traveled school who are coming to Europe how they brought with them. How there was modified other meat and this is fantastic? So you know it's something ever strings it's everywhere you have to mean and they're all connected and interfering how important mm time potent is it for people coming to the exhibition I mean how much do they need to know. Do they need to know anything you know. I always say you have nothing to uh looked at the paintings. And if you are attracted Innova then then you can. You can study. But it's not necessary to have started. Before I the painting has to have a certain impetus certain brilliance and then and I know a lot of people who study now so come by and to me and let's to you know but it's not necessary to be to be touched by and the scale of your work is always colossal. Aw and in these works absolutely so I mean. There's one work that the Romani John Summation which fills up an entire room and scale seems to be a very crucial part for you to draw in the viewer. To draw. Skill has nothing to do with quality. Nothing no the scale is not too much importance importance. It's more a physical thing you know. I'm I'm physically remember again dancing painting and I can intel. Do these are medium sized paintings. I have in my studio paintings. They don't fit in him. So what I like Mike very much because they can sell them throughout these new works. We see mets runic forms. References string theory but always over the top of these apocalyptic bleak. Aw Barren landscapes seems to be so much part of your language now that we associated with the manor. You've done landscapes with flowers and other things but these baron bleak landscapes that we see here's exhibition seemed to be so much part of your practice. What is it about this particular imagery that real comeback getting extreme China? My landscapes grew growing. Wear something pretty dead. The ones in this job I look pretty good for you. It's that for me burning. Something the thing is we saw action. My paintings are lot because a disparate. Like me like me but but then they a half another of this election. You know Philosophi- like so much. It's IMMEL end. He say's just throughout this has to economic last breaking means also already resurrection and also. You've talked a lot about alchemy. Lca ME BEING SO CRUCIAL TO LURK LA- making base material into here are trials and gold. They do gold and I see these works. Very how much is being a part of that particularly new vitrine afoot of the kind of rubbish. This new property you've acquired being made into art. Yeah No I. He is Sir permanent. Transformation of materia into very dangerous process. You know because this was the chimneys chimneys in a lot of accidents and stuff and in the books you can read. It doesn't mean to make gold out of let it not mental spiritual and but it has hit nevertheless economic physical effects and your materials. Israel's current become very much associated with you lead Straw combed leaf. Why do you keep battalion to these very a similar materials again again? I mean I think of you. We think of lead strong. We think sunflowers these very particular material as well as paid candidate to paint on. Why US always right in coinage itself? I use material who has spirit inside I I don't I'm not a plateau honest things. There is the theory uses the system and the system keeps form to the material I think in materia is already spirit and so for me let has spirit and I know it because I discovered it by accident in my house because I had lead pipes and I was immediately fascinated and I didn't know nothing about I. It was a young almost twenty years old or so and but I see some some spill to impact and they're very physically evidence materials when in these works here in White Cube and sticks as Straw Straw that falling out sometimes. Almost the paintings seem to be a state of about leap often reentered the world. They they move onto the time you don't see too but they move said the Lux will ways unstable absolutely not simple view. Yes you know you cannot fix fix the painting on a certain state nobody's moves. How important is it for you to be physically making? These words obviously have many assistances czar. Numerous works but you go salivate among I paint myself for them. Yeah when I put the branches ranches on I have someone behind to who fix them. You know that I put it and I paint so no no no I do do the work and yours. You born in one thousand forty five so you steeped in the ruins of the Second World War and you know been been on. I was going into the Cave of the hospital because a lot of air rats and then in our house bumped can imagine they told me. That's really that's really the sewing machine. Later I worked with this machine in the sewing machine was standing upright on to talk about on the house was done. It's fantastic testing. Do you still feel to great extent. You are still playing in the ruins of our society ruins of Europe. The way in which things you're doing I think then Reid said wants to me on what you do goes back to try to you know you you compel impaled You experience then because then the experiences are the most deep ones and I think it's I'm my leg and also playground in budget two hundred acres also playground in the north of Paris as well and other vast vol- studio studio in the old Samaritan warehouse these almost it seems to me like artworks themselves as what a studio circling Barak. Why does that sound poor computer make these environments ornaments run? Just I think a painting alone. That painting needs around opinions about for this reason. I forbid to all my gurvey's to show my work on up chess because now them put together and they kill each other you you know and nominated photo me. The Avocado is as it show. It didn't but my ghetto is. They don't do it and I think it's all a process you know in in budget. I have a lot of buildings. Buildings with paintings watercolors sculptures and it changed all the time so I changed from these two days until so it's it's It's this big movement all the time and also you have the actual spaces amphitheater Jacques Towers so in a way they feed into the work and then also are expressed is works and then often selves. I made him like paintings. The towers I just started a little bit and then it was going on and on and then destroyed in Lee. The constructed acted. It's likely to pay him so since the nine hundred you've lived in France not in Germany. But you'll still very much associated as a German painter dealing with breath. Even though you draw always vast range of mythologies people still associate you very much of the German painter dealing with German imagery is not a problem for you. Do you feel constrained by that. No no because I'm a Kennedy and don't be Norwegian Legionella. Whatever no it's it's and if you wouldn't legal denies me as a German and it wouldn't be authentic I Perhaps I try to do to build. A house is due next Rhine under German side and the the one under on the French side. It's this big half inch term and perhaps it would be nice. We we need something similar in the UK at the Majo- having his show here at a very very problematic difficult time in Britain. To put it mildly. I mean. You'll oh famously. Very in favor of a united Europe you see yourself as I'm also very much as a European. So how do you feel at the moment in this current situation situation one of your paintings actually referred as it not the European Parliament is one painting shows. One thousand empty seats and This this I I took this this this image from my Pharma University studied law and so but I thought I need this like this because I thought string theory is all about. Instability has no fixed point on on moves. And when you look at the quarks. They moved differently if we if we don't do so it's all symbol of instability and then this European Parliament this really a symbol of instability to and you are in England at the moment which is as it's most unstable phases in living memory but you know other countries are unstable to know east. German government had problems then in Gerry opponent. It's it's very strange time now. And the America don't know what would happen and so I'm not pessimistic not optimistic I see the things from another from another point. I see that what happens happens. All the time and I started so much mythological material that I can say in certain times for example in geological times. That's all what can happen happen. Because there's enough time so if I would have enough time or would be possible these paintings at white cube appear immensely apocalyptic bleak. But you also say there are about Resurrection and Growth. Do you see them as actually having some. I'm kind of comment on the Times in which living you're so turbulent and so full problem no no I think that being and non being the nothing is i. Don't see them connor logic way. I see them into same time. When is the painting? It's from your resignation of painting so I cannot be stressed by my paintings light. It is but your Expression of string theory or expirations a connection string theory with myths these different myths of the deep past it seems like investigations trying to show the interconnectedness of things. Yeah but also perhaps to try and explain what does hold us all together. Are you trying to do that. I try always unreas- to find the formula of bird. I tried to do the last painting but I will not succeed but I try join well that seems like a perfect note on which to end. Thank you very much and so thank you for coming. In and some Kiefer's exhibition superstring Bruhns. The non school not is at the White Cube Gallery until the twenty sixth. The January twenty twenty will be back at the New York auctions after this the pool. Nash is renowned for visceral depictions. The horrors of trench warfare during the first World War. He's earliest images of the war. However painted in spring nineteen seventeen on convalescent? He tripped in the dark. And broken. Rib these works well together. Gentlemen tone. Though by no means sugar coated the were leaving the trenches of bombs modern British and Irish art sale in London. This it's a vector dunes that Nash exhibited in London's goupil gallery in Medan. Seventeen bottoms director of modern. British Vista. Dourson explains the Work Goupil Exhibition. We've let the artist limited experience of the at that time. You don't even in France for a few weeks before his accident even so have immediate impact on public starved of realistic images of life at the front. Let Nash deficient wards. These early works by national escape. Mostly Lecture said the emergence of leaving in the trenches reaching. There's a significant to find out more visit. BARNUM'S DOT com. Welcome back now. It's one of the biggest moments in the art calendar New New York Auction Week I'll deputy are marketed. To Margaret. Carrigan has been at Yorktown or weak and was joined by Scott Rayburn writes for the newspaper as well as the New York Times to discuss this week's events what it tells us about the market at the end of a remarkable decade so Scott you are a art market veteran very skilled at surveying during this rocky terrain that we all terse can we not use the word veteran. I wonder you know there's been a squeeze he's on consignment this season and they're down about twenty five percent going into this week on top of that. Confidence is low thing. Art Tactic said that it's data by about twenty percent. Just since May show. How are we seeing that? Play out this week in the sales okay in terms of actual results We've seen a big drop Impressions involved sales at Christie's falling from last May Christie's would I'm fifty two percent so the business down forty percents and then last night at Christie's so the contemporary sale down forty the percent. Now what everyone in the market says Autzen in you. Marcus says that I will. The thing is the right people hadn't died died. The right people can get divorced. It's all going to be fine. The next year because the Macleod voice consign oil. Come in. That's at least seven hundred million gene. So everything's fine and so you essentially have this mentality of the goldfish going around the bowl and and so that the goldfish goes around the back. The views not so great. But you're on the front. It's fine everything is the same and that in the sense is the big question about the art market. Is it the same. Is it all going to be fine. Is there a status quo that just continues and continues continues and the key thing is demand everyone talks about supply and saying well if the right supply comes along the figures will be great. It'll be fine I actually I. This is a big question but I just wonder about supply because Ah Nets did a very very interesting report which showed that when you look at total auction sales over the last ten years The high when you adjust for inflation Was In two thousand eleven. Not Six six point nine billion dollars since then toodle haven't even got within a billion so essentially it the the whole whole market is treading water at the same time. If you look at wealth reports The number of billionaires since the financial financial crisis since two thousand nine has doubled Now they're number wealth reports but one Won Miss Recent. Put the wealth of billionaires. This is just billionaire. This is not multimillionaires just nine trillion so billionaire suspending less than naught point one percent of the disposable wealth on a hot which is a minute mute amount now why hasn't the art market got further traction the when you walk around the other so meet new people coming into to the market that flooding in you the auctions you go to the office you see exactly the same people you see one or two new faces so what is concerning about the the market is everyone feels. Oh it's fine things just carry on normal but all the time more more wealthy people aren't buying and this is the art market has any number of elephants in the room but that's one of the bigger elephants so actually demand is not increasing using a matches a concern so this raises two questions for me which is one the reliability of auctions as the kind of benchmark of show the art mark is doing this is notoriously a fraught offcially. They own so I think when we're when we're looking at a slow season as in like we are right now in New York. I wonder how much we can temper our expectations when you're saying like we're treading water. Isn't that better than declining necessarily surly but then at the same time you're saying we are have been in decline like numbers in two thousand eleven so I guess it's how do we. How do we square that circle? Ercole there what I would say that. If you look at presumption that this series of sales the so-called gateway hate that Fraser husband but this so-called Mulkey ocoee series of sales. You look the numbers at the they start in two thousand fourteen. And that was a great season with it Koso- from Delta Elsa that made two point two billion then we had a high of two point. Three billion in two thousand seventeen gene in two thousand sixteen was down to one point one but essentially these sales are in a band of roughly one point eight to two point. Two billion this. This season may be down but that to my mind is that's treading water. I know statistics lie all the time but the difficult it. It doesn't indicate that the needle is moving to me and what kind of repercussions you think. That's going to have for the art market as a whole if we're just looking at the auctions now okay where do you. Where do you think that points us going forward? Well the thing is the Obviously the impression Multan cells. Now I'm old enough to remember. Nineteen eighty cells. where the Japanese and the black tie that? Which is the old Peter Wilson Model He? He really really changed the market with the gold. China's sale back in one thousand nine hundred fifty seven fifty eight of eighty one that completely changed the nature of the art market and it's essentially sleep in the same model since then evening sales to create as much international interest as possible. Then you go to some mold sale now and it's a very very very different thing. It's full of people of a certain age you didn't see young people the material because it's been so heavily traded There's very little fresh material There'll be one or two lots in an evening. That fly for example celebrates had a really beautiful Giacometti bust of Diego. That had sensational pattern Asian and it was great cars and that went nuts went Welt W. estimates from about thirteen point five. That's a great object. But that's just one lot you were there in the room in a lot after lot after lot cells Dell's to Single bid to Asia or Russian I don't know how long these people are going to the end of the market. And then when you look at the numbers as an investment vehicle. That's particularly interesting. Because at at Christie's that taught lot was that that lovely McGreevey it knocked turn now. That seem to do pretty well. It made fools nineteen point nine hundred point five with premium but the seller aborted privately. Five years before for twenty one. And if you drill into the numbers with Particularly Impressions Multan quite concerning because people aren't making money out of it and people were in a market where people actually must build and Care Valley on the all they just want to make money out of it and since they start. Stop making money. That is going to be a moment of concern. Came we talk a little bit about the postwar and contemporary market. Because we're halfway through those sales week we've got some other beasts night Christie's last night but Christie's was equally as may be concerning turning is the earlier sales this week. like you said forty percent Down and also forty percent of the lots went hammered on their lowest met. Waterlo yeah so it just shows even even leaner season that there's that people really aren't Getting up their pocket for this kind of work anymore and While they're a few record set last night For Charles White Thomas and Ellsworth Kelly and of course the ED every show you thank you. I wonder with as you're saying that the people aren't making money and contemporary art has been so hyped up in the past five years especially not really a as an asset class as we kind of reached this new plateau. Do you think that that demand will suffer there too and that we will see the financial financial ization chat around contemporary art slip. Well looking at the day sales isn't it because in the sense that's where the action is And there's a fascinating sort of what I call the spin cycle. There where you have autism really really really hot every wants to buy them I spoke to dealer who Josh Lily teric for jaw. Show show in London He said he had full hundred people wanting to buy that. God four hundred So on put around the results on the day styles and the trouble on the Self Bandwagon keeps on going alone. You know there was a very strong work actually estimator eight hundred three fifty. Now I've actually spoken to her about this. She's she's very concerned about this it's incredibly difficult and wearing syndrome. Young artists being turned over. Because there's just it's like it's like a washing machine isn't it that's a spin cycle And if you have the right connections and you're rich enough you get in at the beginning and then you get out in time And the rest is desperate to try and by the work and usually by too late and they get lumbered with this. And it's and this. This whole cycle whole this whole dynamic is very concerned for the market. As a whole I think with calls it's just bonkers and you had a really interesting piece that you actually usually root for for the art newspaper recently which is about kind of like populace Martin tasted are How how is that? Maybe shifted over the past few few years and how is that affecting the market his younger artists. Just wondering to what extent. S- those two wills into into sex. I think banks in Kohl's very very so separate markets from the super Super Hot markets will young anointed artists from fashionable galleries. I think not slightly different I wonder how long the calls things can go on for. I'm not sure sculptures particularly interesting. There was a big painting sculpture From edition of Ten plus two is estimated mated at three hundred made eight hundred thirty six thousand That the sculptured the paintings I sort of understand and but the sculpture. I just find completely anonymous and mad. Why is that well this thing and then his time you're going to be looking at the? This is losing me a Lotta money speaking city in the cool room make you look fool. I think Speaking of cause and banks You know we're obviously coming to the end of twenty nine thousand nine here moving into a new decade. Their markets have been the most astronomical made in the last decade. Are there some other artists that you know have had a miraculous rise or miraculous fall in some ways over the past decade or any larger your trends. That you've been noticing since you know. Obviously we were in a very different financial place. Sure back in two thousand nine right after the financial crash and now we're kind kind of staring down the barrel of possible. Recession trade war is brexit. The whole Shebang wonder if you're seeing any kind of trends that you can spot okay in the last ten years of the first thing to say though of course is the that there's no The people aren't losing any money right. Yeah the guessing guessing richer and richer and richer The that the context for all this is is Thomas Spaghetti wrote the script book called capital for century and antique came up with this one fulfilled relation which is aw is always greater than Jesus returns on capital are always greater than growth which is linked to contagious so the rich get richer and richer and richer so the money is all they just they just get distracted sometimes and they're a bit distracted moments and that's that's that's the the only problem no way but what is it from. The market is blue chip off and finding new blue chip artists because house Very interesting came back to this. Aunt net report on staggered to see that in the first half of two thousand nineteen coils made mort Olshan as you'll Michel Basquiat which is a bit of a moment. Now oversleep owners of of a Big Ticket buskers. Don't want to put them on the market and they're they're concerned okay. Let's understood but with with basketball top. Ask as not coming on the market. Warhol's Kuhn's the traditional blue chip where the auction houses GonNa make the numbers. So what I have noticed is the way. They're trying in to pump up secondary names as blue chip and in London in October album. Oland suddenly be was meant to be a great artist. uh-huh so we had to deal shows. We had Serpentine Gallery Exhibition which was sponsored by subsidies and Gagosian and there was a load of Alba Roland sales. which did all right? It didn't actually have a transformative effect. I think Edry Shea last night was another example of this Now he's interesting artist in academically and in terms of art history. That's in terms of Papa. You know he doesn't have the directs. The visual impact of Warhol Lichtenstein or Allen Jones Frogman. Say but what I thought was interesting was that they gave gave that painting. Take Pride of place where the Kuhn's Bundy had been in this shrine to blue chip timeless. Ause I thought they were really pushing the envelope there but on the other hand it made fifty two million now. Is that a reflection of well. Find the histories catching up with Trichet. All this just a hell of a lot of money in California. It's probably a mixture of the two but I think the trend next decade will be. The auction house is desperately trying to find blue chip names to replace Bacon Rick to all the others and I think they're struggling because we're not living living in a great period of I would say you can see it's videos from the New York auctions and all ladies reporting from the salesrooms at the art newspaper Dot Com or on our APP for IOS which you can find at the APP store on the website you can funding subscription to see you so that you can read reporting across multiple platforms and while you can also subscribe for free to our daily newsletter for all the latest stories take the newsletter linked at the top right of our homepage and each academy monthly newsletter called market I with comment and analysis every month for market experts in London and New York. They've forget forget. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already and if you've enjoyed it please rate or review it on apple podcasts. You can also follow us on twitter at Tan audio and we're on facebook and instagram. Of course the art newspaper cast is produced by Judy housekeeper. Amy Dawson and David Clack and David User does the editing thanks to Louisa an answer on to Maggie and Scots. What's thank you for listening? Join US next week where we'll be looking at DORMA and John Howarth. CNN The newspaper cost to you and associated with bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit dot com.

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Bananaman: who is Maurizio Cattelan? Plus, art and comedy

The Art Newspaper Weekly

52:49 min | 10 months ago

Bananaman: who is Maurizio Cattelan? Plus, art and comedy

"Off the newspaper put coasties brought to you in association with bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bonhams DOT com. Hello and welcome to the art newspaper. Cursed I'm Ben League thanks for listening. Today's podcast is all about comedy a bit later. Three stand up comedians. Tell us about their paintings in an exhibition of Comedians out in London. But first this week week Maurizio Catalan last week. The Art newspaper broke the big story at the art Basel. Miami Beach Art Fair about a new work by the Italian artist. A story that has since since gone viral across the world. The artwork comedian. Because he's sort of a real banana stuck with gray duct tape to the booth his gallery. The paris-based periton gallery produced produced in an edition of three with two artist's proofs. It was priced at one hundred. Twenty thousand dollars. The edition sold out when was sold to an anonymous collector and other to Sarah Handelman woman founder. The Paris store collect and another two billion Beatrice Cox the Miami Bass collectors who said our intention is to loan the controversial work to a major art institution in order to to attract new generations to the museum. We pledged a gift comedian at a later date. They haven't yet said which museum beneficiary of their philanthropy. The banana became a sensation station at the fair and the controversy too surprising turn when on the seventh of December David to tuna who describes himself as a performance. altius removed the banana. An eight it. He was later escalated after the fan. Another banana was installed in its place but was removed from display on the final day of Art Basel Miami Beach The Paradigm Gallery said the installation nation cool several uncontrollable crowd movements and the placement of the work on our booth compromised safety the artworks around us including that of neighbors. So what's this all about. Well the writer and critic Ben Lewis made a documentary about Cadillac for his television series safari in two thousand and three and then joins me now to discuss this. Maverick artist I ben. Let's begin by talking about comedian. This work with the banana in the duct tape. Where do you think this seats in Catalans Irv such a good question is actually? It's probably his worst work of art. which probably makes it his best work out? 'cause that's where theory has led us now to this really topsy turvy world. And that's what the banana stuck onto the wall is all about. I mean I could talk about forever you know. Even it's just a banana. Stuck on a wall was interesting to me is like it's followed. Such such a sort of standard trajectory for controversial work of our like Tracy means bed for instance the You know including that sort of intervention Incheon bodies guy who comes in the they those guys he jumped on tracey. I mean it's been it's sort of. It's almost like he's just sort of set. The ball running and then watched as the inevitable process. Excessive controversial artwork follows the perfect work of art for the BREXIT general election. And for the whole twitter sphere. Isn't it for this visitor twitter coach because you have a work of art. It's it's like deliberately provocative deliberately nasty. It's always like a sort of Julia. Hates Bureau otherwise known as Hartley Brewer tweet pro brexit. Just drive Dr everyone completely insane and attracts all this attention and actually basically a work of art for the attention economy. That's what I'm trying to say you know. And it's a long tradition behind it. I mean let's not forget that you know one of the greatest albums of all time. We had a warhol cover on it. You know the velvet underground album had a banana on the cover. I mean that's that's that's that's sort of where it starts isn't it and the other place like if you wind back evening you know he just copying a work of art he did in the late ninety s when he basically duct taped his Italian galleries Massimo Decarlo who to the wall in one of his early really notorious works. He taped the galleries to the wall. The whole you know this big big Italian gallery. It's taped to the Wolfer a day. That's why I say let's talk a bit more about that. Because that work where he taped Massimo Decarlo to the will all of the booth of an art fair was a perfect day right so let's explore it a little bit more because it was you know this is late nineties. Catalan was not was just becoming a big name at that stage and it's a really radical gesture wasn't at that stage. He hadn't necessarily developed his reputation as a prankster. and He. So you know going into an art gallery and seeing. What are the galleries actively taking in being stuck tool? Let's put it this way. It was a new you kind of institutional critique right and a lot more entertaining than Hans Hacker but in the same field right. Let's talk about so tell us what explained to listens. What's what's institutional Russian critique with institutional critique is when you make a work of arc criticizing the whole museum structure and they sort of mythology that surrounds art and artists and exhibitions? You know in a way Maria series part of this sort of conceptual art reaction against the sort of mythologies Asian of the artists that started with You know in the Nineteenth Century Romanticism. You know they put the artists on the pedestal. The artists made all the work. The artists was a visionary. In fact you know you know after the enlightenment. The artists was the guy who had his handled on God because the artist painted in these these sublime scenes from from nature. You know and didn't have to meddle with language issues. What ordinary humans us you know so the office was like in touch with garden? That was also carried over wasn't into abstract expressionism and Mark Rothko and conceptualization socialism and Maurizio's pop conceptualize. And that's probably a good word for it says Pumpkin sectors and his party sort of fifty a reaction against it. It's fifty Reaction You know the end of Romanticism. The end of Modernism Ole that mythologies -ation of the artist is bunk and obviously it goes back a little further mack even doesn't supposing that period it was actually just when the upstart expressionists were in their pump. There was a group of artists. He will rediscovering Marcel. Do Shaw Jones. who had in a way triggered the whole institutional critique even though it was cool? He's Anita Yeah I mean as Marcel Duchamp with Iran. I know and these other ready mades and you know the ready made is like established the office to see you take something from reality and you put it in in an art gallery and suddenly. It's yours I mean you've nicked and wine forward. Eighty years. Brits headed a brilliant. Take on that you know. He had his ex. He basically got all these safes. These these these safes from banks that had been broken into in the money. It with that was in them had been stolen and he exhibited these safes as works of art. You know it was how exhibition of theft and each safe was titled According to how much money had been nicked from it like minus one hundred fifty seven million dollars or something just tot- who genius you know. Nobody has an imagination. That simple anyway you got do shaw. You caught Piero mazzone. Haven't you with the the the tin of Poo poo the artists Pooh. That's just sort of gag about the mythology of the artist you know and you wind Ford and you get to Moscow. brooders putting potted plants in art galleries sort of comment went on the imperialism and colonial colonialism of a public collections in Europe. which is this all in the in the sixties or seventies? I mean do you. I mean brutalities retarded just so contemporary. It's not true. He's like one of my top guys. One of the things about Catalan is that he he your film safari film about him he. He studiously avoids being interviewed manages to the end of the film to get a couple of minutes with him but then again he chooses to use the answers of somebody else when you finally actually being able asking questions is somebody else's answers that he delivers and one of the one of the things about him not being accountable at least until recently. He's only recently started really doing interviews is that we can't you know he doesn't want to just simply make statements like I see myself in a lineage of do Sean Brodeur's He. He is very difficult. Who pinned down in that way? I think the simplest way to think about Maurizio is as a cartoonist. A Three D. cartoonist. And you know if he was doing drawings in a newspaper. We'd kind of find that art as art critics anyway a lot easier to understand to slot into the cultural landscape. I mean the other famous on the ninth power the popes struck by a meteorite. I mean that is a classic kind of cartoon image. Isn't that says to you just like imagine if you know. Imagine if the destruct by meteorite what happens to our faith in religion. I mean what what a question poses. I think the other thing that I've got to give you about unit sticking Massimo Collartoo. The Wall is that like you know. It's a gag. It's not just saying the mythologies Asian of artists is bad. It's not like that. And he's a satirist he's actually saying. Look what I can do. You know. This guy has to flog my art. You know. He's gotTa be nice to me. I can do anything. I'm the all powerful artist I will. I'm the visionary who can see gold. Let's say I want to stick my gallery to a wall. Erie go up up. He goes I think this is one of the most interesting things and I think something that lots of these sorts of hysteric who responses where they started saying oh it's the end of our you know completely missing actually you know Maurizio has consistently lampooned the market so I mean talk talk about the paradigm. Well he did with pattern when you know. I can't even pull them that you you say you know everyone's shouting. This is the end of because in a way. Inverted Commas there is the end of art is is about the a a poorer if our might use a phrase from Derrida. It's about the OPPO earlier. You know that sort of dead end moment in art theory when art theory collapses in on itself and suddenly within the tons of art theories sticking a banana to award is actually good art. I mean he's telling us that art theory has collapsed in on itself. He telling thing is that the discourse of contemporary art you and I use everyone uses. It's become a black hole you know there's something going wrong there and that's also for me that's also quite important but it's not the only kind of art he produces. He doesn't only hack on about the art market. He's does really funny kind of witty little biographical works it doesn't he. I mean you know as as the one of of him as a child. He did lots a little sculptures of him as a child and their as his early one. Where this kid dressed dressed up looking like him looking is seated at a school desk and he's basically crucify? His Hands Crucified to the desk was each one has got a pencil through threw it like Jesus crucified to the Cross. And it's about you know it's kind of complicated things in school. Oppressive was he subject to too much control Solo. was He just obsessed withdrawing that where the pencils about he creates. He's these wonderfully challenging. Ambiguous open ended pieces another another work which involves children and he he he he depicts himself as a child in lots of works for instance the probably the most famous work involving a child in inverted commas is a twelve year old version of Hitler. Basically so This called him. Yeah that's just amazing. That's like hit Hitler. Looks like an adult but actually he's in the body of a twelve year old kid and I just think I've often thought about that. Were you know it's not easy to get to that image part. The genius of meritas is simplicity. That brings him to a sort of a funny but also also has sort of dark gallows humor moment and like you know. Imagine heat done Hitler. But Hitler's actually had the face of a twelve year old Hitler so we look younger. Gotcha it wouldn't work man would it. It's it's colliding of ages is that he's twelve but he's also grown up you know. He's praying does. This remind us the evil people in the world actually also often think they believe in God thing they gotta morality or is he actually praying for forgiveness you know. Does he know what terrible things he's down always GONNA do a marvelously ambiguous shocking image. Another thing he did was he dressed up peddler time who's WHO's booth. The banana was on in Miami as sort of a sort of bunny penis In his yeah he he's go you know he's. He's got a certain amount of mileage winding up his galleries. Hasn't even making fun of them back. In the day you know Emmanuel Paragon was a very very young Gal Ariston in Paris with particular reputation. But you know a good on yet Murakami on his books and you know he had ritzy was one of with autism for one of the shows he Maria Maria Gio got para tend to dress up in a sort of Special Bonnie penis outfit. He'd made made you know it's like I said a pink pappy Mashak Kinda penis outfit with bunny is on top. I mean it's like Moody grows and you had to hop around his gallery like that for a couple of weeks. And there's another piece from New York in that vein where you know. I think it was at Marian Goodman an Marilyn's like okay we're going to put them ritzy. Ritzy couldn't think of what to exhibit and so at the last minute he got a donkey and he suspended a really fancy expensive glass chandelier from the ceiling and under naty tether donkey to arrive and it's just hanging out in his. MTR The art gallery in another quote marvelous thing. Was that that work you know. They sort of apparently mindless work which he just did. The last minute was reconstructed as a sort of historical document acumen. Freeze New York so again Moore playing with a world's pretensions to be seen as serious art moment. Yeah and and then he had his own little gallery. Didn't he New York the wrong gallery which was just literally a door but you know a glass door and behind it. He invited me to put on shows and the art. That was really really really good. I mean this guy's a serious artist working in lots of different media. And he had this amazing magazine didn't in the nineteenth or early two thousand who permanent food. I wish I had a whole collection of that. You know incredible photographs. I think most found federal. He just got he's incredible observer. He's a really really. He could observe and he's a guy and he's very good at finding simple images to capture his observations. You know I'll tell you my favorite fees or got. I know I'm talking way of the favorite. The best ever did with Peter brant because if it's so big and so lazy that he'll only paralegal work of art. If you commissioner I mean if you say here's the check back when you do something for me Peter Pan is a media magnet right. It wasn't media magnates. Didn't he own the whole interview magazine. Didn't here in New York. And he was he had lots of awards and he was close to. Warhol is a big collector. You said he wanted to Marin Co wh- Maurizio. Do for him what. He did a portrait of his wife. Stephanie Seymour Talk Model Stephanie Seymour Right on a plaque as if she is like a stuffed head of a deer just had taught bit holding Holding her breasts pushing them forward. You know there. Is You know Peter Brands trophy bride as a work of art. You know it's a cartoon. It's breath taking a simple but it's also like it's like a knife in the gut isn't it. It goes right through you instantly. He's really good at those private commissions because for instance he did one for Benjamin Brown. WHO's a collector the visit as part of the safari program? Yeah the all safari program kind of had really wacky narrative. Because I said you you can make any film you want about me as long as you don't interview me right. I know that game. That's makes my life really difficult I've got into you but actually Marissa's case I thought I can survive this. I'm going to try and interview him. And the whole thing about Maurizio then sort of started thinking about the readymade Marissa's always using ready mades or even if the stuffed animal animal. It's a kind of readymade it's a safe. It's banana so okay. There's the artist you take something out of reality puts it in an art gallery called art by. I'm from reality you know. I'm Ben Lewis I make. TV I'm in reality. He's an art. So I'm GonNa do is I'm GonNa take his works of art and I'm going to bring them to life. Take them back to reality. And I'm going to send them on missions Sion's to interview him which was a gag within his kind of theoretical framework. But mine and he really got that so you know. I dressed up. Some kid hit as one of his little sculptures as a sort of mini me. Charlie don't surf and send him off to to try. And you know doorstep Catalan at some art opening and then and I had another piece where we. It's quite complicated to explain this piece. But in those days Maurizio did not do any interviews and he sent along his double to do interviews and his Dabo is a is a curator now very famous creator. Very brilliant man could Massimiliano Joni also has a brilliant sense of humor is now running the new museum and he sent he sent Massimiliano Maximiliano off whenever anyone wanted an interview show in early. Two thousand sent Maximiliano of to say well I did was I created this other sculptor. That's owned by this English galleries. Cool Benjamin Brown Benjamin Brown Commission Maurizio to do a piece for him I. I didn't know how they agreed on it but anyway it came down to Ritchie was going to do a portrait of Benjamin Demand Brown's granny and what he did was. He created one of his waxwork pieces and put that granny waxwork. Benjamin Brown's Granny Enough Ridge in his fridge in freight exactly in his fridge in his kitchen. Another really clever idea about you know you. Granny always hiding around the corner and about yeah. I mean about cryogenic suspension. Death and to really want your granny's live forever. Layers go on and on so I said I sent off these sculptures to interview him. I'm and kind of get it. Allowances out of him a certain way with that and then I felt like I really have to get rich here to give me into. How do I do that? And I latched onto this small idea of going to the Venezia gnarly and creating a work of art. That was sort of imitation Maurizio right but actually because I'm not very talented. It was really bad. I didn't realize I'd I'd like to tell you. I planned this all along but the reason I got into Maurizio right with because I created a work of art look like it was a really bad one and then I started and this is a giant head. Well I had was. I had a giant head. John had just like Ritzier Catalan because he had done a piece in the late. Ninety S or maybe early two thousand. He done a piece where he had a set of character. Moma with John Picasso head like he was like a Mickey Mouse greeting people at Disneyland but this was Picasso greeting people at Moma so anyway I built this huge head looked like mercy Catalan and so I was wondering Venice with it and also thought people are GonNa think this is nine is terrible so he had to come out and stop me and get me to take off my head. which is the end of that little film I mean? He is so so clear from that secrets that he was. You know he really didn't like the fact that he was having to do this. You Know He. He made this stipulation. He didn't want to be interviewed. New Really wanted to stick to that is is sort of about avoiding. That mystique being disrupted somehow about keeping a certain sense of mystery about the man himself. I didn't think anything it's it's Mystique or you know trying to create some kind of mysterious autism brand and you know a cult of the cult of the great attitude attitude never be seen. Anything is anything that he's quite Shammar. It saver didn't he shining either. I think he just wants to see if the art will succeed on. Its own terms I. His images are incredibly simple. And this is I think this is one of the features of art from the nineties is is all that works instantly bang like an advert you can think of other artists who who created images that simple really direct popular easy to get images you know. He doesn't need to talk about it. Will it work. If he doesn't open his mouth and and most of them do because they immediately a lot of them they just sound how become part of popular debate. That's sort of their so cleverly inserted into where we are. Oh now one thing. You'll feel conveys very pathway. I think is the difficulty. People have in explaining his art so the you talked to various collectors and galleries and they and every time you ask them to explain it they they will they kind of loss for words and they scramble around and leased to sort unsatisfactory. It's relations that's that's the way you talk about the ambiguity of him one of the great qualities. If he's what is the prompts all sorts of interpretation right. Yeah you just can get now. You can get sort of ambiguity of meaning with images and the way you can't get with words and so it's quite difficult to explain them in words and yeah. I take take took advantage of lot in art safari in the Maurizio Film and the other films because I make fun of people. You can't really explain the artem but I. The vacuum is important. Because because you know if it's a really good image is quite difficult to explain. I mean that's just how it is. That's that's the power of images that's why meaning art is different than is different from meaning and books. If you like. I'm talking to you now that that we've laughed in this conversation and I think actually as part of this pocus we took into to some comedians and minute and we talk about comedy and that kind of stuff but what's interesting to me is arts and I don't think it's terribly good comedy. You know a lot of all that tries to be funny isn't very funny but it does have a genuine. Nectar drew a laugh Disney. Yeah he's you know he he. He's like the Steve Bell. All of the art world isn't it. I mean he's The Guardian. Eighteen is is Britain and he's done really really political stuff like in some sort of some sort of grabby hill identity. It was a rubbish dump or just to kind of dirty hill. You know insists in Sicily. He erected a life size replica of the Hollywood sign. It sort of looks like in the Hollywood hills hills. But it's not it's in Sicily. You know overlooking You know a very untended piece of land and it's a very powerful piece about about poverty. It did another total genus about nationalism. That people really remember very well right. which was is like a war more all black marble you know and and as thank you see writing on it like it's People's names and you got close right right and it's a list of all? The English. Football teams defeats every single. One in a list. You know I mean brilliant the and also he left space for lots more to be added of course which was the sort of an another extra element of his of his rubery. Yeah I mean well observed you just seen something in the work that actually. I'd never never occurred before. Completely right. And that is how sharp it is. The War Memorial is actually about people dying so he can understand defeat but actually erect a war memorial oil. You know to to to your victory to your glory in battle. It's about your success. And here is his monument to defeat so ultimately one of the interesting aspects about this has been as has been the in a way Catalan his as he's being propelled back into the public eye. There's there's there's been and lots of assessments about what he's role is what kind of artist e as you clearly feel. He's a tremendously important often. These made an important contribution to to be kind of how contemporary culture around. Yeah his work never die. He's in the top ten of living artists. No question he's out there. At least Freud is just a completely different kind of op is every every bit as good. In fact it's just like the dominatrix opposite. He he is he is Lucian Freud in the mirror suck it up guys fan. Thanks for coming on the thank you for having me read more about comedian that the art newspaper Dot Com or online at s which you can find at the APP store of course and when you're there you can also read Louisa Bucks interview with Michio. Catalan ben Lewis has made his safari film on Catalan available. Video for free. You can find the link via his twitter page. He's at the universal. Ben and Ben spoke the last. Leonardo about Leonardo's Salvator Hundi is available from August bookshops. Online stores. We'll be back with three COMEDIANS. Talk about art and comedy after this. The film producer. Ten photography dealer Peter Fetterman describes himself as a bit like Billy Graham Evangelical for the power photography to change lives change range mind. He's chosen selection of images for a wonderful life the sale of photographs from the Peter Fetterman collection which takes place at Bonhams New York next week in among works chameleon such as ansel Adams August Sander and urban penn their images of startling caused by lesser known practitioners Fetterman singles out pentti similarity the Finnish photographer specialize in the smooth surprises to be found in the every day as well as the poetic work of Sabina Vice is still busy. Most pieces. That ninety-five Burnhams head of photographs. Laura Patterson said Peter Fetterman is one of those fortunate people who's been able to turn his passion into his life's work the outstanding images you selected from his collection a testimony testimony to his unerring eye and still find out more at Bonhams DOT COM now. An exhibition of art by well-known British. COMEDIANS has just the opened in London. Art Is the best medicine which raise money from the sale of art works for the Charity Mental Health. UK features some of the biggest names in UK. Comedy including Timour or Vic Reefs Josie long and the three comedians. Join me in the studio this week. Any McGraw the curator of the show who showing a painting of the moon landing and Katherine Switzer. who was a woman was prevented from running the bust of math and in nineteen sixty seven? Jenny eclair who won the Perrier award at the Edinburgh Festival. The UK's biggest comedy award in Nineteen ninety-five showing a painting. Flowers and Rob Auden who showing a portrait of Chris Tarrant the British light entertainment presenter. Best known for presenting who wants to be a millionaire and a you conceive to this exhibition. Yes the little bit about it yes so it's an exhibition of art by Comedians So I've been working the art world for about six years and doing stand up at the same time. So I thought why not straddle those things straddles not a good way to combine ahead strapped. So very poor choice strategy strategy combine those two things together because this is land blend them together and yes so was it. Did you invite people that you knew. Were newer artists to yet a combination. I invited a few people who I knew already did. And then I discovered through instagram. There were lots of other comedians medians who draw draw as kind of side project as well. So yeah the list. I think there's now four fifty four that's enormous and I mean. The interesting thing is is raising money for mental health charity. And yes the way that you'll presenting is very much as a sort of therapeutic exercise exercise the the the act of making yeah. I think a lot of COMEDIANS. Find it a useful form of escape because stand up can be a little bit stressful at times being able to sort of paint by yourself without an audience. There is a nice relief I think. So you're you're a painter. Yes yes I like the smell of it. I'm smoking my flesh now because I smelled slightly oil paints ca class this morning on those ghastly middle aged middle class. Ladies Ages goes off to class on Monday morning that my idea for mental health. Because obviously I've had some problems we all but you you get the frustrations you get angry. GET UPSET YOU GET JEALOUS AND I. I'm all these things in an art class as well. Don't think that suddenly let all that go. Jesus this this morning I I sorta house furious because some people were you know some people know John were actually being better than me but I would tell them that no just hopped around the thing. Yeah No I. This is lovely thing to be asked to do because I genuinely do believe that. In artist Artis therapy. I'd I'd really sit. You know to be serious for a second. I think that is a lifesaver. Totally Natalie and I am happier So so much happier that now. 'cause I stopped United School. You do it and all that sort of thing and then also you twenties and thirties. You just don't do pick up your pencils for fun anymore anymore and then all of a sudden it back my life and I'm just so glad Robuchon. A portrait of Chris Tarrant the British TV presenter and it made me laugh when I saw it off. But do you see. Do you see your painting is assortment extinction of your comedy life or or do you do you separate the two things The quite separate the moment I was the first thing that I realized I liked school and got an enjoyment from doing really making some nothing and then started to enjoy the ideas a bit more of just coming up with an idea and then saying it incident painting it But they are very separate. The moment bought now. If I paint it doesn't often make me laugh whereas if audits something and sometimes it does not always I mean. This is curious thing that's happened. Is that Harry. Hill has also done a portrait of Chris tarrant among other things to come to the exhibition. Yeah I look. We look to look for his agent on one and you can pay for appearance. Be Good because it to get Chris tarrant did he. Think about fifteen quitters enthused. I thought I'm joking about five million. Can You well given that as a charity. Maybe he come down for free and he told me about your painting eighteen because I I was one of the interesting things is looking to see which of the pitches were finally in which were clearly very serious and it seems to me is making a very serious point while yeah. There wasn't that intentional but I don't think it's funny it all. It says so if big lamb landscape with the moon which has of iconic image of Neil Armstrong I man on the moon and then underneath is Katherine Switzer. Who was the first woman to run the Boston Marathon? And I'm just I had a bit of sand up about it By that was it's interesting that we sent a man to the moon before we let a woman run a marathon so I just thought it was quite funny like we. Don't we didn't let woman run the Marathan within the first woman ran in Nineteen seventy-two Because they if a woman run a marathon before that the uterus would fall out well it does. They don't have to wait and pick up my you just shoved it back cout forever. Yeah but it's a little bit twisted move around. I'm sorry for my uterus is on. You'll you'll view painting is is called my me something isn't it is protocol sending like The sort of painting a middle woman would do exactly. Yeah Yeah Yeah because it is It's flowers it's flower is in a lovely frame It is but it's spring flower kind of quite blurred blurred quite a impressionistic Oil on board and then framed on my my partner actually deals not be much better without coq. Make some money to me that if you because I really mean it. But he's now he has a business called Twentieth Century Prince DOT COM and so he deals and twenty century Prensa. He's a really really good framing. And he gets these frames from free markets and brought his sidekick and the beautiful phrase. And when I asked if I could have one of his beautiful frames for peace my what his hill face Phalle. The frames probably worth more than the painting is beautiful Tainting they look very nice together. Don't they yes. I'm good at that. You know but so tell us about the pricing of the worst. Because like you know how do you decide how much you GonNa Choke Autry oil painting. Our friends on the left should kick as well. I I was thinking about the name for modern because it's of Christiaan called. I want to be a millionaire. So the painting cost one million pounds. So that was that was that was the idea. Say I like ideas thing a louvre right. Do Laugh laugh ridiculous treats yeah. We're GONNA come on. Leads us to this banana thing. That's is an idea that made me laugh bought. Well let's talk about it now just over over the last week in Miami work by Murcia. Catalan has in this. This very swisher fair has been on display. And it's one hundred twenty thousand pounds in addition multiple edition. So there were. There were several sold for one hundred twenty thousand pounds. It's called comedian. It seems like an unbelievably coincidental thing to happen. When nutria coming on the podcast just as Comedians? What did you make of this idea that duct taped but it onto a wall and charging one hundred twenty grand for fishing? He tapped the well of. WHO's reading about earlier and it said The banana is the idea walk. You call so there's an idea I feel like the bath of funny is a lot lower than it is incumbent. If we went on stage with an honest to wall people says to hold on the banana there is an iconic thing both in comedy and art the covers album. That's iconic connick slipping on a banana skin very very funny especially if a woman's uterus falls at the same time so that banana is an offer news into fruit football. I'm a big fan big fan of fruit bowl So I mean the whole thing about the Catalan at peace piece. Was that a artist. Not Catalan another chap. Decide to eat the banana. So smashed banana and edit so and then but then that kind of feeds back into making that peace more famous doesn't it. I mean it's like a back seat shredding his live at Sotheby's it's like the theft theft the golden toilet I mean sort of art and mucking about with arson stealing and all that sort of thing we just brings up the profile. Really the point that you make about the low bar for become Edina. I wonder if there are. There are some artists who make work which makes me laugh. But I was trying to think how many times I've been in an art gallery and laughed out loud and it probably elite count them on the fingers of one hand you think about comedy and David strictly would be an excellent living artists who you know he consistently makes me laugh. Yeah I like Joan Cornell analyze that his name he's an illustrator. He does very funny illustrations alike beams very dark and instagram. He's is one isn't as sophistication on the end of the self historic visit golden instead of a camera in his point. Yes I am that would make me titter. I not a big fan of comedy. That makes them. I don't really go to a gallery to be made laugh. I'd I want my jaw to drop more than not But occasionally come out or something and I won't laugh. Allah felt I feel gladden to the heart. I'm allowed to say pretentious shit like 'cause I 'cause we all are. Actually you know. Sometimes you canal slightly beaming from something very glad you've seen it dude laughing gallery style with other people look and they just things the people say in certain. Is this this in. The I was once working around. This little kid said to his mom are was Jesus and the mom said yeah good question. Where is is Jesus and I was just so you know still fly just little snippets of stuff and then there's also is it called the four seasons awesome? It's in the National Gallery beautiful paintings. It's not pizza then just scenes and then Jesus in them and when I spotted him it was almost like whereas and not made me. Laugh isn't the first whereas Worley natural plus the chilly in the fifteenth century and I was interested in this idea. I I have have a feeling that it's interesting that so many comedians also artist. Because it seems to me. There's a while the fun product might be the same artisan. Comedians have a similar tendency to look differently at the world and that that's what might unite them and make a serious point for moment. Yeah I think that's probably true. He's pick koppen everyday details that most people wouldn't necessarily Going back to the exhibition Vic Reeves is very good. Sort of print of Batman on the toilet which is risk. Thanks great I mean he's he's there. I mean within this look comedians not. I'm really looking forward to seeing that mission because I think that some of the comedians median sleeping painting painting for a long time. Naturally there's a proper standard there. There's a will be pieces in this collection. There's a proper I mean I like no fielding's endings work as well and so I don't think it's just a mean for someone like me. Who Does it for mental health and Sunday afternoon and I'll be communities have time on uh-huh and rather than sort of Th having ill thoughts battle spur of the people and sort of making taking voodoo dolls. I mean it's jarring your creativity into something that's more is better for you than that is not a bad thing do I mean that's the thing is art can provoke in different ways. You can pour anger into work of our that can create the kind of transcend experience. You've got your own journey slop about. That's my dream. Do you have a space. No I use my bedroom. which is not big enough? Really to splash around. Yeah Yeah I think most of us have go spend all I would kill for. I think we should make comedian studio. Show that actually Jenny's face you know. The pecking order. No we'll hit that caused slight biggest slot the night go and all that kind of thing but I I hi this I'm rambling off another thing but I do find this interesting. Is that Last week I went to under residential beating coughs. Now this is something that Because I think of artists therapy I think a Nossa because if you're a middle aged woman you sort of allowed to have hobbies and I think it's really good when younger people have hobbies because for so long. I thought that in only kind of people who didn't have friends had hobbies. But you know when you when you you are this age you kind of given license to have hobbies nurses place which is the headquarters of the W I and they have. This kind of school is called Denman. College allege and it's basically a hotbed of crafting and painting cooking and singing. And it's kind of fucking mental when you have to you really should be middle-age. I mean the youngest Brunell was about forty eight and the oldest was about ninety three. And you stay there in these bedrooms with no televisions low WI FI prison. But it's and then you get up you do beading from nine o'clock in the morning and it's just I it. It was like being in hospital. WHO's like I really had lost it complete some? It was like a sanatorium craft sanatorium. So when you say we should have this. COMEDIANS agents out space. I'm so up for it. I really think that could be a warehouse. Remember the old days when you know you spilled squat warehouse. We could do an Andy Warhol thing all over again and that'd be that'd be great factory constructed again to get serious the mental health issue. I mean it's really interesting trusting in the press. Release the lease several comedians talking very openly about their own difficulties in terms of them into hells. It's quite disarming. You you know seeing people that you used to seeing being funny than talking very seriously about the life and I think that's a really important point. Isn't it that that actually the reason that some people in company and the reason that some people making art is because it helps them with dealing with these mental health. Yeah definitely and I think it's actually ironically caused people to feel a lot of anxiety as well as finding a therapeutic. I think the the opening something on show in such a different way to performing has been quite stressful for of people and I. I don't know there's something different about displaying arts to sort of making people laugh on stage because that's the final piece that you can't change it based on people's reaction to painting is there some Some sort of level of comes from the fact that you're actually surrounded by lots of other people doing the same thing because the last thing I want is for the exhibition to cause more anxiety. COMEDIANS fighting relinquish suffering more art though. That's true good thing. Well that's it. I mean. Lots of artists made work. especially I mean all the art made especially for the most of it a few pieces Not Yours was made. It was just say it doesn't really matter. Lots of people have made stuff especially for it and other people like Jack Whitehall. I think has submitted this Jesse artwork rains and and the great thing is that the image is so diverse. Really SORTA cartoony images your committee. Sort of ROB. Your image is really kind of Heavily worked and he got really worked on those sorts of lines on face for instance. Yeah I I remember doing it and what I like about. It is just when should start just with a piece of for Prince Paper. I'll do this and then next thing you know you've been there for five hours in you've completed not look if own wants and just gone and it takes you somewhere else and then you wake up in the morning on in a little bit when you wake up in the morning and you remember all that did that and you've made some phenomenon often and sense of achievement even though you know even even if it notices live dates you feel like you've put some of your time in your life to something to good use and I went through a stage recently if not doing win as many gigs after doing low Edinburgh no lot lot and then did Ah GIG overnight in a school and it just made me like my purpose was that I was like. Oh Yeah Right. I've I've and it gave me such a kick nothing. It's the same of when you pick up the paper. She's again no something like that. I think a lot of my mental health problems come from well spending so much time on my own but then they can you discipline your discipline isn't it. That's it is about discipline and I think also talked about allowing yourself as well. It feels quite really an indulgent and self loathing from maybe like a lack of discipline and so should it not so you stopped beating yourself up about our should've tried harder on A. Did I know everyone. It's not just comedians and artists. Everyone yeah exactly. We Sophomore bomb there. But it's really interesting that all of you talked about the idea of making as being somewhere sort of stepping out time time in spite it's completely different territory of your daily experience so it's really fascinating to hear. All of your different ways is a kind of escape or very much and I think that a lot of people get this from running I'm Fawzi laze in anywhere uterus. Fools out all the time but in sport doesn't read. I had joined a gym because he just have to because he talked to tell city and I I do get I go to yoga classes about twice a week and I do you get the same sort of thing And I think that because I'm allowing myself the time now for this because I'm not saying this I'm Nas us as a I'm vicious because I'm very still very very ambitious but there is a bit weaker arrived nearly sixty. I am allowed to do this now. This I'm I'm allowed some treat time and a never now think that Yoga class or a painting session is wasted. Even if I'm not happy with what I did I I know that it's it's I'm happier so I I do wish that I'd had this as a younger woman but I was fighting is younger when I was so ferocious and so driven and so matt a so hung up you know that I would never giving myself the time. And it's a real shame because I could be could be better than I am now because I'd have twenty more years of experience. Those kind of things valued much more widely now on like the wellbeing. Yeah exactly good mental health and all that sort of thing. I approve prove that actually notices obviously a huge amount of wink involved in it as well but one can brush eh but then the well the whole wellness business can can be ridiculous also selling smelly candles and you know all that sort of thing but I do believe that. I'm having a hobby and being creative and allies out there. That is wonderful oversee. You're showing your work. Tuck in public in this show but I wonder in general as people that are showing your work. When you're doing your comedy? Does it matter is to you in general that your work is seen by other people. Your art work is seen by other people. No I think maybe a couple of years ago. It was a bit more Shy Bouts it but I sort of pushed myself to go on instagram account. For my aunt to know that kind of thing and I I went to Campbell live. Oh I still think I might do. Foundation serves today. Foundation is the best way of education I ever did. It's the most learn more in that year than I I. I learnt more in that year than any year in my whole education. Probably about five times more is just an extraordinary journey of discovery. You should definitely do it if I I think the I can't quite give year up to it because I can't make any money out of it and some time they still have mortgage today and all that sort of thing but That's really interesting to get us just in Llorca but it was great because it was the first bit of self discipline really old. And you know you got Ed Project at the Star and you have to show you work at the end and it's abs you. How much work do you think about us? You find out about yourself. How much do you like what you do when you you got to think? It's the same with being a comedian performer. Whatever it's like you've got you've got to light your staff more than anyone else so that you know? Yeah I WANNA do. It'll show is just a walking. Do and maybe a notable and he's podcast secret artist because he's really interesting because you're talking to people whilst you'll making the work this lovely Relaxed quality to it but they actually you find out a lot about the whole process of being creative saving that lots of several of the conversations. Have they have this sense of anxiety about the whole process of being creative or you know the idea of being creative to be funny as a as an end result is there is a sort of tremendous pressure in that somehow and comes at a lot through your podcast. Yeah I think it's quite nice. You see the journey from. I think we've talked uh-huh about art being therapeutic but there is definitely a massive frustration that comes at halfway through doing a piece. I find that with painting anyway But I think yeah Wadsworth during the it does so as rob said it takes to another place in your less conscious about what you're actually saying because you're concentrating trying to your cat. Whoever I I thought we then just talking about artists you love Pepsi? One of cheese one artist to recommend to our listeners. That you you. Would you think they should look craft again or discover. I'm Hispanic Tom Def- Reston. He does very so painfully figurative arts based on literature so he does of Hamlet Portrait and stuff about just very thick dripping paint. I like I like art. The taikang possibly D. Myself I like sort of the opposite of of me. You know I love the Bascay I like but then I quite like pretty as well I can go quite Suit Chintzy Bonnard. And you know. I don't mind anything. That's another good fruit bowl. I don't like dark. Don't like Rembrandt as I've said I hate Famous Larry but Larry before Larry was all right. I like a bit of Henry more alike but then when I think I like ah the women. The Women Painters Nineteen thirties or go to a big Piece my heart that goes real sort of apple. cheeked nineteen-thirties portraiture Gotcha of girls and women. That sort of thing. I love that famous In a nice frame what about occupy Baldo is fruit. And I don't like that no I don't like that in this bit. Try hard ugly ugly. You know very bad. Don't talk about a lot under Goldsworthy. Oh yes lying down in the rain and then getting I didn't know these Levine ideas. You know Yes yes. His sorta stuff in the wild. Yes I I I. It's great in that and just just love the idea of a grown adults being able to go into the woods and just covering a big brunch in the same colored leaf and that being his life you know and brilliant Damien Hirst as well as very very good on instagram. The way that he talks about his work and is the the still unreleased of Yeah and now. I am a big debbie. Fun of one of my favorite things so now will go a framed surely thinking some guy going up the steps right and so there's I'm a cartoon figure going up some steps and as a spiteful enough says as I go to collect my walled I turn to my friends and family in the crowd and then Ziesel. The speech bubbles coming on from scientists. Twat you twas what's what and it's just so that college is think about that when going to Edinburgh volatilities lie yeah totally Allah will think he will three of you coming in today. It's it's been a pleasure to have you on the coast thank you thank you combine on. What is the best? Medicine is the Classic Gallery in London until the twentieth of December. Any McGraw's cost secret artists. And you can find that wherever have usually get your podcasts to find out more about forthcoming gigs for the three comedians. visit their websites. rubs is rubber duck oh UK. Jenny is genia cleared. Come Anne Anne is is it any McGraw Dot Com any particular me to mention her show at the festival in London on the twenty seventh and twenty eight thousand factory next year. That's all for this week. Don't forget subscribe tried to the newspaper at the art newspaper. Come where you can find the subscription to see you while you can also subscribe for free to our daily newsletter and our new monthly newsletter could art market. Could I do subscribe to the cost if you haven't already and if you've enjoyed it please leave his rating or review on Apple podcasts. It helps others defined us the art newspaper. The podcast is produced by Judy and the House. Amy Dawson and David Clack and David also does the editing. Thanks to Ben to any to Jenny and to rob and thank you for listening listening. Join US next week when we doing. Our Review of two thousand nineteen see the cost to Hewitt Association with Bonhams near Seventy two three to find out more. visit booms to come.

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Sackler sponsorship: take it or leave it? Plus, museum attendance

The Art Newspaper Weekly

44:29 min | 1 year ago

Sackler sponsorship: take it or leave it? Plus, museum attendance

"Yeah. These people put Costes brought to you in association with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bombs dot com. Hello. It's the art newspaper put cost with me. Ben, Luke and this week with focusing on two very different aspects of museums the ethics of funding and visitor figures later in the podcast. We'll hear from max line, the director of the Metropolitan Museum of art in New York about the talk to exit in the newspapers Aniela tendon survey both of them at the met will also Jill down into the numbers and identify the big stories from this research, but first mediums and funding from the Sackler family on the nineteenth munch London's national portrait gallery and the Sackler trust. And that's that they decided to not proceed with a proposed ground of one million pounds to the museum. This is in the wake of a growing control Versi over the damaging impact of content an opioid drug produced by the families pharmaceutical company perje pharma in the days afterwards, the Tate announced that it would not seek or set Sackler donations and the Guggenheim in New York out that it does not plan to accept any gifts from the sectors and last week the sector trust and answered it would halt all new giving the time. Being in the current print edition of the newspaper. Meanwhile, a front page features the exclusive revelation that much smaller institution the south London, gallery return to secular grant, one hundred twenty five thousand pounds last year. We invited a Representative of the sector trust onto the podcast, but they declined and Firdous to previous statements on the issue. Those statements say that thirty pharma and the second family have denied any wrongdoing in respect to the opioid crisis. They point out the Oxycontin makes up only a small percentage of the overall opioid prescriptions in the US and that it didn't approve prescription drug with a high potential for abuse that has always been recognized. But in the studio with me now as Martine Bailey, our London correspondent who broke the south London gallery story, multi before we go into greater detail. I wonder if you might just sort of set the scene for us. What what is this issue about what it's raised an interesting question about sponsorship, museums accepting donations, and it's a particularly complicated case because it's one that's evolved over the last few years. But it's become a parent. The the medicine of the pharmaceutical products made by the secular company have been very damaging and the sackless have been one of the major one of the very launch issed donors to museums and galleries in the UK and indeed in the US and elsewhere. That's why the particular medicine that will keep is is it medicine cooed oak, see content. Take your attention has been drawn to this body artist. Golden who is actually done a lot of activism around it, and sort of harnessed a lot of the kind of concerns that were being expressed about opioids in the states and particularly targeted the cyclist. Yes, indeed, non golden had actually taken the drug herself. So she speaking from very personal point of view Oxycontin with a drug that was developed as a painkiller, but it's it's a dictator, and it's had very damaging health implications. And it's recently become a clear that huge numbers of people are dying. As a result of addiction. So this is the problem and the drug is was developed is manufactured by a company, uncle Purdue pharma, and they're continuing to market it. And that is why this being opposition for medical groups and from autism also in America, and that's put pressure on busy galleries, which accepted substantial donation from the Sackler family. Okay. So it seems like in the last few weeks a damn has broken into GMs of the museum reaction to this issue in the sense that for instance, the Guggenheim in New York has said, and I quote that the that it does not plan to accept any gifts from the sack clues. What's happened in the UK? Yes. I mean, there's been a major change. I mean behind the scenes the south London gallery, which is a small but important gallery in south London. Re decided to actually return some Sackler money. This was not publicized at the time. But we broke the story in the he's done some digging van Hulu labout, and I think that actually had quite a major impact. Because once one of the small boys had returned the money it made it much more difficult for the big boy than that's portrait gallery to accept it. And what you mean by that? Well, I think it would be embarrassing for the national portrait gallery to have accepted the money when a small regional gallery will of suburban gallery few like had actually taken the initiative to return the money was already in that Bank account says that is something very substantial. And I suspect that the national portrait gallery realized that if news came out this other gallery returned the money, put them in a more embarrassing situation. But I do want to stress the portrait gallery had been considering this issue. Very thin. Seriously, and they taken the unusual step of setting up a specific ethics committee, which was reporting to the trustees and the first purpose of this committee was to examine the Sackler nation and consider whether the money should be accepted and the Sackler trust had offered a grant of one million pounds towards the portrait galleries development project. So it was a very significant grant. And I think the director of the gallery realized that the they had to make the right decision on this one. That's interesting, isn't it? Because let's talk about the way it was communicated. It was very much expressed in the statement made by the Sackler trust. And by the national portrait, gallery self that. This was a decision that was made by the Sackler is not by the national portrait gallery sank trust decided that the proper way of putting it would be that they had. Decided to withdraw the grant or not proceed with the grant be more precise rather than it being turned down or jetted by the portray calorie. But of course, the close discussions between the tool canonisations and Farah enough the Sackler trusted off the money, and it was up to them to decide how they wanted. It to be presented and worded. Can you give an idea of the scope of secular funding in British museums? Because we extensive isn't it? Yes. I mean, the so many if you're a visitor going to museum in London. I mean, so often you'll find something named after the Sackler. So if you go to the National Gallery in Trafalgar Square, the cloth room with the names of Ingold, or whatever at the top of the top of the walls, the Sackler escalators Tate modern and. The Sackler director the dodge pitch gallery. The recent Vienna extension. Exactly serpentine Sackler gallery, which is whole gallery with with the names that grew on the front of it. Exactly. I mean, there are so many named ponts buildings or institutions, and it's quite interesting that the requested that the name be put on the building or. The courtyard or the escalators or whatever I mean, some donors very secretive and don't even want their name mentioned others want their name in lights and the sackless, and that's entirely their decision had decided they wanted their name in lights, and I mean looking towards the future. It's actually going to be quite a dilemma for the museums and galleries what to do with these names on their walls because it doesn't look very good. And the I suspect that gradually win the rooms redecorated, and they're putting coat of paint on the walls will suddenly see the Sackler name may disappear under some new paid. But I suspect that will take place over months and years, and that's a decision primarily for the museums to make, but they're probably also have to consult with Sackler trusts. And the two UK charities which are involved with the sackless had how does an ethics committee at the national portrait gallery relate to the trustees of the institution because it seems to me is an interesting development normally decision of this magnitude would be made a board level. But this this this desire to form an ethics committee seems to me is sort of created a body within the museum, which which seems to me might be quite unprecedented. When it is unusual. I think Tate have an ethics committee. You a very valid question about how the ethics committee the national portrait gallery has worked and the answer is we don't really know because the arrangements a secret, we don't even know who's on McMurdo. Don't know. I mean, the newspaper asked the names of the three people who sat on the committee, and we were told that was private information. I understand that two of them are trustees. And one is an outsider, and I've no idea which trustees were although the logic to the chairman of the trustees being involved in such important and sensitive Matt of it. We don't know as a public body. They not obliged to tell us who's on boards and committees. And I don't think they are necessarily. I mean, theoretically one could put in a freedom of nation application and see. And then you'd hear an couple of months time. But we don't know. Okay. So after the national portrait gallery or other after the sack lives in the national portrait gallery announced their decision. The Tate came up with the statement. And I think this really deepened the game in because the fact that not only had the national portrait gallery, and the Sackler is issued a statement saying a grant was no longer happening. The fact that the Tate issued a statement saying that they were not going to consider sack cliffs is a different kind of statement in a different. Kind of commitment. No. This was very important. And I think the Tate is probably the only gallery that's made such an announcement in the last couple of weeks, what they actually said was in the present circumstances, we do not think right to seek or accept further donations from the sank Klis. So that's put it clearly on the record. And I think they'll be quite a lot of pressure on other galleries to follow that lead into that position. And it is common sense. I mean, can you imagine the control of ac- that will be stood up? If Tate off the natural garner, whatever now accepted further money from the sack list. It would lead to negative press publicity. It would anger some members and visitors to the museums and galleries, and it might actually discourage other donors. I mean, if you were a donor, you might not actually want to be part of project with the sackless at this particular moment in time. So I think yes, tater stuck out. It's neck and other galleries a likely to follow suit, we should say all of these developments are very much fast moving on. Because like, for instance, in twenty seventeen we did a report which followed up on a big piece in the New Yorker, which kind of set the scene for all this debate about opioids, and in that piece, Christina ru is our correspondent in lots of museums for comment, and they refused to comment about what we're going to do about funding from the Sackler family. What do you think has happened to shift the dynamics, well, I think in the run-up to the N P G announcement UK, museums and galleries were very reluctant to say anything we did approach for comments and got nothing really substantial. They really wanted the to make their announcement. Now that the mpg the portrait gallery has made the announcement and has cut its links with Sackler. It's now much more open. I think resumes galleries are now going to have to consider very seriously what to do next, and they'll be pressure on them in several ways. First of all, I think it's almost impossible the Tenny, museums and galleries will accept further Sackler money. An indeed the Sackler trust has issued a statement to say that for the meantime, it stopped giving grants. Go back to golden one of the big stories that came out of all this was that golden had been offered a show at the national portrait gallery, and it indicated that she would decline to proceed with that show. If. If they accepted the sec Legrand. I think I was one of the reasons for the portrait gallery decision. It certainly wasn't the only one, and it may not have been the most important, but they had offered an important retrospective dangled in and that would have been when the new building when the building reopens after complete renovation. And of course, that's the reason why they needed to Sackler Monday to start with. And so the nine golden who had this who herself suffered from these drugs took a strong positions Boca publicly against it. And she Paiva told the portrait gallery last autumn that she would not proceed with the exhibition and then a few weeks ago, she said it publicly so I think that was one of the pressures on the portrait gallery it needs to maintain its reputation, and if an important artist withdraws next from an exhibition of an issue like this it is very damaging to the poor. Trait calories reputation, and they were well aware of the threat. So I think that was an important factor behind their decision. Of course, this brings up all sorts of related concerns about ethics in terms of museum funding. There's a story in the current issue. Print addition of the newspaper about tobacco sponsorships, and there that that British the British Museum in London continues to accept money from tobacco. Yes. I mean tobacco shoal is a much greater danger to health in the u k official figures show that it kills roughly one hundred thousand people a year and the danger from the Sackler drugs is not on the scale is in the United States. And it kills very very fewer people here in the UK. And I find it surprising that has been so little attention paid to tobacco sponsorship. The report we ran in the. Paper was that the British Museum was accepting money from JT by now, we men not all know what JTI stands for. But it's the Japan Tobacco international. They received backing from JT I and also the role kademi has been receiving tobacco money. Now. They're all kademi is in a different position. It's an independent organization with no government funding, and is a charity. So it's much more dependent on outside sources of sponsorship and donations. But it is interesting. The British Museum is accepting the money, and we also published a previously secret document, which was the Tate. Trustees decision twenty five years ago on sponsorship and they listed various categories firms. They would not accept money from the first with tobacco companies. They also said that time there were not. Accepting money from companies with substantial interests in South Africa in the apartheid regime or in arms companies, but tobacco was the first. So it's interesting Tate bandit a quarter of a century ago. And the British Museum is still accepting tobacco money. And of course, Tate and the British Museum both British government funded museums rather similar, indeed, the two most visited museums in the UK, and this is all within the context of climate in which public funding in the UK has in the air over steady fallen and galleries, and museums are being encouraged more and more to develop revenue streams from other sources g think the whole issue damages museums ability to raise funds, or do I mean, you indicated earlier on actually taking ethical positions could be a positive step in that direction. Well, I think is are in a difficult situation. And. In the government grants are going down in real terms. Their expenditure in them Bishen, a growing, and so the need to make up the money either from commercial activities off from donations and sponsorships, and it's very easy to be to sort of dog Batic about what one should or shouldn't accept and of course, the grey areas in between, but I think on health issues of museums should be very, very careful, and it's not any an ethical issue. But from the museums they also must consider their reputations. And it's not very good for museum to be seen as accepting financial donations all support from organizations or companies that selling dangerous drugs Norton. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. You can read more about the sector story and the ethics of museum funding in the April issue of the newspaper, which is out now. And of course, you can find out online at the art newspaper dot com. We'll be back to visit a figures after this. The Californian painter seldom Gail believed in combining greater with good company was the driving force behind a group of color. Start is known as society of six he said the group's aesthetic direction and sparred its members many of whom shared his house with the force of his personality and warm hospitality. The aim of their work was to convey spontaneity and their objective was to communicate joy girls, quite cove Belvedere that leads Bonham's, California and western paintings and sculpture sale held in Los Angeles on the sixteenth of April is a perfect example of groups approach. It is in the words of bombs to retro, California and western paintings, Scott Levitt, desolate embodiment of Gyles mastery of color and texture to find out more visit bombs dot com. Welcome back. Now, the April issue of the newspaper, always comes with our annual attendance survey an exhaustive list of visit officials at museums and galleries across the world in a few moments. We'll explore some of the big numbers of this year survey, but the most notable statistic is that the Metropolitan Museum of art in New York has captured the top two spots in the world's most popular exhibitions of twenty eighteen heavenly bodies fashion in the Catholic imagination which featured couture, inspired by Roman Catholic religious imagery, along with people robes from the Sistine Chapel. Sacristy received around ten thousand nine hundred visitors a day and the museums Michelangelo show which had more than two hundred works through seven thousand nine hundred visitors. A day are senior editor in New York. Nancy Kenny went to the met to talk to max align the museum's director about those extrordinary figures. Lisera camper. Heavily bodies was the highest since the mid put on its king Tut show in nineteen seventy eight and the galleries were mobbed. Can you explain the show's popularity for us? It was agreed woman, of course, of celebration of a particular exhibition extra also how an exhibition of theme can inhabit an entire building. So I think the audience really reflected way, positively first of all on the subject on thematic approach to work towards a costume exhibition. So hit the certain of, but it was also the opportunity of exploring the met as a building. And it's different collections including McCoy's actually through an exhibition. So it was to set new we. The costume institute show on anybody's a conduit of understanding the met as a whole in all its different diverse offerings. Well, you mentioned the cloisters this show was held at both. The main museum in the cloisters medieval themed outpost town around three hundred fifty thousand shows visitors went to the cloisters, which is an attendance record for that branch of the museum. Do you think you could create in the future? We're for us. Of course, audience mix -sition is not the prime goal. But I think it certainly said a standard of attention and all of again discovery for the met cloisters that they want to continue and find other programming that has similar effects from time to time. I think heavily bought it Medco's something really special because to certain extend heavily partisan exhibition. Head a beautiful Sinaga fy itself. Of course, the cloisters. Almost a perfect place to show heavily bodies to show costumes fashion designed inspired by Christian your J Deums. So in a sense. I think we've found the perfect fit there. And of course, on the other hand something unusual for the choices. So that's part of the of the chemistry. Andy attraction would be doing this. Now, every four months, I think would lose some of the some of its effect. But I think you will you will see programming that were activate also the close in a different way more. The future than we've seen already in the past. Are there any shows in particularly like to mention that are in the world. I don't want to announce anything yet. But I think you you've seen the success of Hanley bars. I can also remember coming as visitor to the crisis and seeing that wonderful installation of Cardiff the. Saudis initiative. Embrace the entire space. So from time to time, I think also the cloisters can have a contemporary few point contemporary perspective on what this institution is also about what the cloisters percent the outset. The ways to amplify that attic could've wishes or with particular dometic exhibitions that busy for together. But is that particular point will you show us another crowd-pleaser with people jammed into the galleries? Also there were Instagram moments like Sistine Chapel ceiling that was reproduced. How do you explain the appeal for a general audience, we can lounge was of course, very special because what happened there was you had an audience that was completely miseries by exhibition. But in essence, it was an exhibition that required you to look bay carefully and deeply. Like to remind you that these these were really delicate drawings works on paper. So it was a show, of course, with Michelangelo an artist whose whose name resonates with the border audience, but an audience, you don't see that many works by Michelangelo. If you're not in Rome. So I think it was a discovery from any and away focused exhibition in the sense that it's really. Call it old media. It was of course focused on Michelangelo drawings. An audience at a moment to understand this is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to see these masterpieces these these drawn way way precious loans all assembled in one place. It took us, of course, about ten years to put the show together. And that's not too much the work on. I don't know the concept or the insulation. It's obviously ten years of work convincing the lenders to share some of these really precious and bay delicate works with with a broad audience and certain extend we feel these exhibitions that were. Something only the Mets can do. And if we do them, we have we have we have an obligation into them right to share it with as many people as we can you curator told us that guards at the met were eager to take part in the show to staff it. I would see is enormous pride for everyone works at the met for what this institution does. And especially when exhibitions that saw the over thick said people's imagination on fire that pride miss. Strong. So I am pleased to hear that. And I think common Bamberg security is someone who is can be very convincing excited about. So I think the enthusiasm those she shows for for her work is something that really resonates. So well that the whole way of how we all work here in this institution. And that kind of is from the gods to the director's office introduced a new policy on admission fees, charging adults from outside New York state a full twenty five dollars rather than allowing them to pay what they wished. I'm how's that affected visitor numbers for the museum overall? We haven't seen any negative effect on it quite the opposite. Was best attended year ever. So I visit ship is actually a continues to increase, and it's something clearly the institution has an enormous offering for for ticket price on other level for for people coming to visit New York the two shows we be talking about alangelo and heavily bought his of the overlapping. It's experiencing these expeditions as well as the whole met with it's different collections. I would see that audience numbers. And also the diversity of audience shows that the Mets program is being embraced wholeheartedly and odor that the pricing. System is something that we feel comfortable with. But it's something that audience fully accepts and also a really great way offer forward. We have we percent hit. To an extent do potential visitor numbers. Figure into the museum's decision. Making on future shows. I will see the met has a diverse program, and we do about forty exhibitions. None of these shows are being driven by. The reason why they come into existence is not audience projections or trying to make sure that we get as many people into into. Into the museum. But on the other hand, you know that. Exhibitions next edition ideas. Context that will resonate more with a broader audience where some some will have almost like more specialized audience, it's one of the strings of the Mets that we have this. We can produce this diversity of offerings. But on the other hand did not really dependent on the audience numbers of our special exhibitions in we got to total attendance. So your goal isn't to surpass this coup that you had last year. No. I think our continues cool is being the meant and being a great institution. It care so much about all the foods collections. It's corley approach and owes its narratives, and it storytelling, and that will continue to materialize itself in many different inclinations, many different programs projects exhibitions performances publications cetera. So I as director, I don't see. As of via mission driven institution in our mission is to best serve our audience serving audience means actually doing it in multiple in very different ways. And it's not geared towards audience Maximus Asian at any time. Well, thank you. Thank you. Decade newspapers, Emily Sharpe has led a small team again of the visit. If is over many months and attempted to identify what they tell us about trends in attendance, Emily is with me. Now, Emily, we've heard all about the Mets Choi. So tell us about what the other big figures are well, the the Smithsonian American art museum sort of help the US pull up a hat trick with having the third most popular show in our in our survey with Dojo saga. Exhibition of his big immersive, fabric sculptures, and that was seen by nearly one point one million people, and it also topped our contemporary art category. So very good for DC shows. How? People are attracted to an event an experience. We we've talked a lot on this podcast. Actually, we've talked to in the attendant survey of year, if this event culture, this idea of people going to have an experience and actually all of the three exhibitions those first three exhibitions speak to that. Don't they very different kinds of experiences all very much experiences that want to be recorded and transmitted over social media. And all that I think one of the takeaways from last year is that if you want people come to an exhibition don't call an exhibition, Colin and experience because they're looking for more these exhibitions that are not traditional. Exhibitions per se or the ones that people are really really interested in this interesting because the the Michelangelo show is on the one hand, it's two hundred doings an exceptional GNC two hundred doings, but the two hundred joins difficult to record on your phone and transmit. But of course, there's this bit at the end these interactive bit where there's a sixteen chapel. Recreation speaks to again, different ways of. Creating new cone of experiences from historical as well. Isn't it? Yes. I mean, it's just having that that little addition at the end that just will keep people there. A little bit longer will offer something slightly different. Social media, obviously is becoming a huge way that people are recording their experiences of of museum going exhibition going and very happy to to share these experiences. If you cater to that. You can't get huge numbers. I was reading intrigued them Chinese museums feature very visibly in the survey as they always do they all huge missions. They can cope with vast numbers of people. One of the really interesting things. I thought was that a Chinese exhibition at in Chiang high of Tate Britain works attracted an enormous number of people more than six hundred thousand people more than seven thousand people a day. Take Britain attracts one point two million people a year and off the number of people that visit Britain in a year went in three months in this Shanghai museum. And it makes me think. Weedy makes you think about collections about how in a way that these under appreciated Brazil's in our own countries and something become blockbuster exhibitions in other parts of the world, the Shanghai show of Tate's collection. They were landscapes. And that might be something. We're used to seeing you just go across the river tape Britain, and you see the whole bunch of landscapes British landscapes, but for an audience of Chinese audience. That's that's a new experience. So that was there. I mean, that's take Britain's most successful show ever. And you had to go thousands of Columbus away to see it this because take Britain has never had six hundred thousand plus people ever see an exhibition. I think their biggest exhibition of David hoped me. Couple of years ago that I believe that was their most the most popular exhibition. What what other shows do lots of people? I think obviously the live the Delacoste show was their best most popular exhibition that they've ever had in their street. It was also their most successful year ever ten point two million people that particular show had. Five hundred forty thousand it beat their earlier old master shows that they had had Leonardo show a few years ago several years ago. But it'll be interesting to see with the latest Leonardo show. Toba see if that whether it has the Salvator Mundi or not how many people that's gonna if it can top over last year. But but interestingly the Liuw credits their record attendance with the Democrats the. Upswing in tourism following the. Twenty fifteen terrorist attacks people are starting to come back. Foreign tourists are coming back and also the beyond say affect because ape shit the video a shit, which I've seen is. It was filmed in the Loof and people just curious after they they're pictured standing in front of the Mona Lisa or winged victory and people were curious to then go check out. The museum is interesting because museums are often criticized historic museums often, criticized for pandering too much to contemporary taste, and but it does go in the is directly saying we have ten point two million visitors because of all dot plus new stuff. You know, it's it's powerful evidence that creative programming museums and creative associations that museums can strike up actually bringing more people, and I don't think it's not going to diminish the lose reputation. People are still going to go to the loo the collection is phenomenal. But it's just that little added kind of I guess bonus of being able to say I stood where Beyonce's two or something like that. You know, what are the highlights are there in this? General tendency to museums. I think obviously with heavenly bodies, we saw fashion fashion is very big in the last few years, we've seen that fashion shows are fashion exhibitions, I should say are really very popular with the public. So of course, heavenly all the Mets their costume institute shows always do very very well. I mean, obviously, heavenly bodies was unheard of in terms of their figures, but it beat their king Tut show. The when the Mona Lisa had a whistle. Stop tour of the US back in the sixties. But we see shows, for example, like the Frida Kahlo in London, which was more than a fashion show. I mean, it did have her her some of her garments. But it also had z- personal effects photographs that was that was at the Vienna. That was a DNA sorry that was the Vienna's most popular show. Two thousand eighteen MoMA had its first fashion show since nineteen forties, and it it looked at sort of Staples fashion. Staples, like the little back dresser Levi's jeans that was its most popular show. One thing we haven't gotten this use of as the or show the Vienna, which because it began last year, but it continued into this. In fact, has been extended because it sold out it seems like another fashion show will do very well in next year. So I would imagine that is going to be possibly their biggest show the Mets camp show the opens in may that is also going to be huge. And then you've got other museums that are, you know, even it was announced. Right. When we were writing the the analysis that the Wallace collection was was putting on a minoa Blahnik show that they had just announced that for twenty nineteen. So it's not something you would expect the Wallace at something different. But it's going to be interesting to see what? Happens in the and what about? The the Lou is the most popular museum in the world. What's the rest of the top ten looking? Well, national museum of China is a number two as it was last year. Eight point six million. It's a fairly new entry into our survey it appeared in our twenty seventeen survey for the first time the met again takes third. Vatican is fourth. It gets a little bit interesting when you get down to fifth and sixth because we've seen Tate modern and the British Museum switch places the the Tate modern hadn't nearly five point nine million people British Museum had about five point two. So the Tate has now become the UK's most visited museum. It's you're talking about forty nine thousand fifty thousand more visitors. But it's telling I think it's still feeling the effects of the of expansion. Switch house opening the cost of show was incredibly popular again. Very widely Instagram show great show. And also, I think you know, the Tate's that tanks performances. Yes. Exactly. I mean, it's very possible. I think that the push museum and titan will swap round next to very small is in relative terms is very small number of people. The that's the difference in an blockbuster like Picasso happens. You know, that of that scale once every few years perhaps so wondering if actually is a sort of short term effect, but still I mean, these are stored figures only I'll remember when take modem when it was talked about founding table, and they were talking about two point five million visitors, and we're to confide point nine. Yeah. This is extreme they blow not away. Yeah. They have. I mean, it is it it's amazing. And I I do think that the B M and Tate will probably flip flop. And if if the British Museum, you know, has another blockbuster like upon peso or was the one they had a few years ago, the sunken Egypt if they. Have another one of those. I think that they could possibly you know, it could flip again. But it's interesting to see that the time that we've been collecting overall total museum attendance figures we've not seen that before. And there was some other interesting developments in UK tendencies as well in the yes, the RA had a record year. It's two hundred fifty Denver Serie, anniversaries. Always hope boosted him. It's figures we saw that with the Beyeler 2017 Guggenheim Bilbao so in its two hundred fiftieth anniversary it opened its David Chipperfield expansion greatly increasing the size of of areas to to show works. It also had the summer exhibition which is always very popular. It was most successful summer edition ever curated by Grayson Perry. It had two hundred ninety six thousand people which one hundred thousand more than it had twenty seventeen the summer exhibition. It was timed very well with the opening of the of the of the extension. So that was. Of it felt lucky. I mean, we talked about it at the time. But it shows that the role academy becomes something much more like a museum a may four people are just turning up like they would to museum rather than making a special effort to go to see a an exhibition, which it was a what we call a tower and exhibition space before a now at feels much Maloka museum. Yeah. I mean now it has the space to be able to do that. And yeah, people are trading at that way. And vienna. Had good figures as well. The vienna. Had very good figures. It was a record year for the Vienna. No doubt. I mean, it it set a record in two thousand seventeen and it broke that record again in two thousand eighteen no doubt helped by the feta collars show strangely. The winnie. The Pooh show was quite popular. It actually was more popular per day than the blend Siaga which sort of blows that theory about fashion shows, but but that's per day figures were talking. And it is Winnie the Pooh. But yes, so the Vienna had about one hundred seventy thousand people great now one of the things that happens when we talk about attendance figures is that people question. What they mean in terms of success factors. Of course, it is one only one side of museum success we go to town on it. We make sure that people understand the context. In fact, nNcholas Callan director of the national portrait gallery is in a very good comment piece in the current issue of the newspaper in which he talks about this issue and how tendencies only one measure of success. I think we should point out that the newspaper has never claimed that visitor figures are the only metric that should be used for measuring. Whether or not museum is successful at reaching a wide audience. But it is they are important. I don't think you can dismiss them. And he was very, you know, he makes valid point by arguing that you should you should look at other factors. You should like online engagement, which now museums are putting their own line engagement figures in their press releases something they've not done in the past demographics. Whether or not, you know or programming is bringing in different segment of the population than than. You would traditionally expect and how their program is filling their commitment to scholar research or addressing this you Gendron bones. So well, it's thoroughly riveting read or tendon survey we saying it, he's not the Bill and Endo, Emily. Thank you very much. Thank you. You can read arts most popular, the newspapers attendant survey, an a wealth of comment analysis in the April addition of the newspaper, and that's it for this week's podcast. Subscribe. If you haven't already if you're enjoying listening to us, please give us a rating or review on IT as it helps us to find us. You can follow us and tell us what you think on Twitter at ten audio, and you can find the newspaper on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, of course, if you'd like to read more from the newspaper subscribe to our free daily newsletter it contains around up at the stories on our website previews of shows across the world and live reports from fares being ALI'S and auctions. You can subscribe by visiting the newspaper come in clicking on the newsletter link at the top right of the page. The producers of the newspaper put cost are Jillian house get Amy Dawson, and David Clack and David also does the editing. Thanks to mountain to Nancy max, and to Emily and thank you for listening. We'll see you next week. We might be talking about Brexit. If we get any closer to knowing what the hell is going on see you. Then. The newspaper put cost to you and association with walk near since seventeen ninety three to find out more. Visit Bonhams dot com.

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The Gainsborough murders. Plus, RoseLee Goldberg on performance

The Art Newspaper Weekly

42:44 min | 2 years ago

The Gainsborough murders. Plus, RoseLee Goldberg on performance

"Yeah. Each people house. These brought to you in this OC with Bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three with expertise in more than sixty categories of collecting it specialists will connect you with your passion. Find what defines you at Bonhams dot com. Hello and welcome to the art newspaper podcast. I'm Ben Luke coming out this week. I talked to rose, Lee Goldberg the founding director and chief curator of the New York by new performer about her new book performance. Now, live aren't for the twenty first century court to go here. But first we can travel back to the eighteenth century and delve into the grisly events in the early life of the artist. Thomas Gainsborough, the cover story of the Tober printed edition of the art newspaper is headline murders. Most found it explodes new research begun by Mark bills, the director of gains housing sub break the artist birthplace in eastern England and continued by the newspaper zone, Martyn, Bailey and delighted that Mark and Martin are here with me in the studio. Multi. Let's start by saying exactly what happened. Well, it was seventeen thirty eight in sunbury where the gains profoundly lived and the uncool and the cousin of the artist were involved in financial matters and claiming over bankruptcy case. And the other side was very belligerent and began threatening the gains per family and begin with a threatening letter with sent to the uncle and the cousin saying that they should drop the claim. Otherwise they would face death and the was the second letter of some months later reiterating this. In the meantime, the cousin had been murdered. And after the second letter, the angle was murdered Mark. Can you tell us about the research which led you to this discovery will? It was a piece in the London gazette which which. Which mentioned there was a reward for death threats and had the dotes of the death threats and information about them, and that tied with your the contested information. We had about Gainsborough's uncle and cousin the time in London that the time of their deaths time, they made their wills. I'll that we we because he was intriguing and it seemed the fact that they'd gone to the secretary of state and offer to reward that there was something in this. It wasn't just, you know, not all the date Stallard and it would seem very clear that that that that that it was it was murder. And how did the story developed from there? What was the next piece of research to be uncovered? Well, I mean, that's, you know, we had lots of information about Gainsborough them. We sort of them we went to, then we started to put together the catalog, and then I met with Martin who then came up with the wonderful death rates would just in the Nick of time, it has to be said because we could add them to the catalog, and they furnished viz wonderful detail actually unconfirmed that murder was absolutely. It wasn't admitted. So just before I ask you to read out these grisly details most in these threats, I think we should establish the all three of the people that we're talking about the artist, his uncle and his cousin. All cool Thomas. And so we'll refer to them as the artists the younger cousin, if we can't, if that's okay, but Martin go ahead. Tell us about these threats and the details within them. Yes. Well, in the first reddening letter, the. The anonymous writer said, we will come down and blow you up with gone gunpowder. God damn you or else. The poor unfortunate cousin would be fed a meal that you will not like a week earlier. The enormous writer said that his gang had been just behind the cousin and described him as the rogues OSs. Now the in the cousin must've been very worried and taking these threats very seriously because they actually both wrote their wills very shortly afterwards. And there was a second threatening letter sent sent a short time later with an ultimatum, and the ultimatum said, you must drop your financial claim within seven days or else. And after that ultimately expired five days later, the cousin was buried, so his body must have been taken to Sudbury an all the arrangements made. So he must have been killed literally within a few hours after the end of the expulsion of the three, the end of the ultimatum. Now, what's remarkable is that after this, the ankle was undeterred in pursuing. He's this debtor despite the fact that you know his son was dead, which is a remarkable state of affairs, isn't it? There was a sort of relentlessness to his proceed. Yes, it is incredible that. The cousin was killed, and then the the coil carried on fearlessly and six months later to died. Now I discovered what happened. Thanks again to a local newspaper, the weekly miscellany recorded that he died in London pub the golden fleece in corn hill. Now, the unusual to dine a pop in this, you've had too much to drink, but one wonders whether he was actually fed a meal that he would not. Like anyway, he died in the pub so it is a stunning the brazen threats were made and to people when I did so Mark in your essay in the catalogue, you're able to sort of straddle this together in into a picture. And I think that he wouldn't, you know you would pursue the. Debt. If your son had been murdered, you wouldn't want to give up on people not possibly wasn't so worried about his own life, but I didn't know. I, it's, it's, it's it is. It is is difficult to know. We also know the pub- the where his life ended was just around the corner from the coach top from Sabrina. London is fairly easy to get to suburb from London. Probably these than it was today. As a regular thing, and it was around just around the corner. I mean, I think the most astonishing thing is against bro. Just, you know, six months later was going to London getting off of that same coached up, of course, in east of London. An that must have been quite a because he was there because of the money of his of his left him. But he must have been very aware that this the debtor taken place in a very close to that, but he was never threatened himself, but it was the, you know, the the wealthier parts of the family, the other two Thomas's. So we should say that that Thomas games for the artist at this stage is eleven years old and he benefits directly through his uncle. He does, I mean, is on call. I mean that side of the family had build them out against father, went bankrupt in seventy thirty three. And though the guest house. Was bought by that side of the family and they were allowed to continue to live there so so. So when gains games died, he left twenty pounds and with further possibility of another twenty pounds for him, which doesn't sound an awful lot, but a lot more. But it still wasn't. It wasn't an enormous amount, but it gave him enough and and it was in in the will to find a light Handicraft. And the also left five shillings a week against his father because skins father was had difficulties with money, and possibly that was to do with with drinking or gambling we done, but he was runner at found money quite difficult. So most, what do you think about how this affected the early life of the artist? Well, it's very intriguing. I mean, the these murders what impact it would have had on the artists. I mean, after we said he was eleven years old. He was quite young and it must have been highly traumatic. He presumably attended the funerals and. Sudbury was a small town. It must have been very difficult for the young man. Mark is quite right. They didn't financial terms the the artists side of the family gained enormously, and that wealth helped to send the artists the young artist London, where he would begin his career. But it's interesting to speculate one can only speculate on what the emotional fact must've been. It must've been very upsetting and one wonders really why the answers father wanted to send him to London. You would've thought the family might feel that they should keep together in this difficult time. But it's possible that the father thought that gains brother, the artists, the young man would actually be safer in an anonymous large city rather than in sun breezy where one's movements could be very closely observed, and it must be must be very difficult. From eleven year old to leave the comfort of home. After this very difficult situation, it must have had a major impact on his personal life and probably on his art. But I think that's really for Mark to comment on. Indeed, Mark, I'm really interested in in the that relates to to gains as far the and the fact that he received a small of money on a weekly basis from his brother from the Oakland, it was murders and the rest of his life rather than Linke given a lump sum or newsy news was a weekly thing which was sort of, so he wouldn't, you know, to void penury, right. And the town looked after him to a degree. He was given an rolls and things, but they're always in debt, particularly to the when he died, was in debt. The assets seized after which was in in seventeen forty eight actually when returns. Subra from from London, but I think with with gains breeze, moved to London, I think was it wasn't particularly stipulated in the will that he goes to London, but it was his father's wish. You went to London and was really because of his talent is an artist. There was no way that you could really train and develop that ability that he clearly had early on that the place to do that was was was in in the in the city. And I think that's one of the extraordinary things I've always thought looking early gains. Brett is even given this money for an apprenticeship because president is normally seven years and you paid an amount. He couldn't afford a painting apprenticeship, which customer seventy eight ninety dollars, but it was it didn't become an engraver or anything. Any fat, even in Greg studio didn't become an engraver address. He always held out to be an artist, which from his background was quite an extraordinarily very, very single minded. And whether whether the impact of really traumatic events makes people more single-minded makes more is at no. But certainly the shadow of debt was always been against his live. I mean, one of the letters letters says, rather, I built my life upon sandy foundations rights, but actually against. She always remained famous as he was not one of those artists dropped out of fashion too, terribly term. I think there's always an element of of of get didn't give. I mean, he's never overconfident gains in certain ways, and there's an element of of thing which which comes from that sort of debt really right at the same time he was as you say, there was a single mindedness and there was sort of say, not overconfident, certainly single-mindedness in his in his sort of squabbles with the Royal Academy later in his life. He knew he wanted his works to be displayed. Princeton he did, and he was quite happy to fall out quite happy to take the measure of removing all his pitches and never exhibited at the wrong kademi again because it wouldn't hangs pitches has wanted them. Again. It was a bit of positioning against because he knew the role academy would not agree to which is, and it built a gallery behind Schaumburg house. And I think he knew that that was a way of positioning himself to as a sort of again. Roll academy to degree. Let's go back to some of the early pictures and particularly how his father's may have contributed to the production of some of these works. And I'm particularly intrigued by this Mr. MRs Carter in the Tate which the cat looks at least in the exhibition, but it's a work, which is always puzzled me. And you think it may have a sort of satirical intent? Well, images, it is a really unusual pitcher. I mean, one might look at and say, it's actually a bad pitcher. I don't. I don't think I don't think to be done it is, but, but it is very unusual for Gainsborough because it's not the, it tastes. The taste will pitcher that you would expect from a good case. But this time it painted quite a lot of double portrait or small family portraits and of himself, and his wife and everything of curb is and, and they're all run restraining nice, red ways code, you know, little try on hat looking, very elegant. But of course, Mr. MRs. Carter, nothing like it is his old-fashioned wig which must be what well out of fashion by seventeen fifty over completely a big west with over decorated. Whiskered is stockings. Don't quite fit their sort of ruffled and pulled up over his legs, and his wife is about half his side and she looks like she has a subpoena head. I mean, it is really odd and when it was sold, it was there was a note with it which was traditionally done, no, this was done for a favor. So whether it was done to pay off a dead. We can only speculate people are gonna have a very rich experience discovering the early life of Thomas Gainsborough Gainsbourg's house and is great because the exhibition being on there. And of course you in the house of the challenges of Thomas skins were just before, you know, all these events happened and just around the corner, whereas on coll- live to is murdered is now a French restaurant, which I think it links very nicely to the Hugh links as well with gains bizarrely family. So yeah, this quite a lot to see, say, thank you both very much for joining me. Thank you. Thank you. You can read more on this story at the art newspaper come and in the Catholic, the exhibition early Gainsborough from the obscurity of a country town. The show opens gains perhaps sub Bree on the twentieth Tober and continues into seventeenth February. Now we thought we'd use this opportunity to talk to the art historian Ben Dor, Grosvenor regular contributor to the art newspaper about gains more widely bender joins me on the line bender, what do you make of this story about the murders and how that affects how we now see him? Oh, I think it's fascinating evidence. I mean, I'm I'm always impressed when people find out things like this, and it's also surprising in the way that it hasn't come out before. That might reflect on some of the sort of wider research skills of of art historians. But it's really interesting. Whether it makes us look again at gains early pictures. I'm not so sure. It depends how far you won't go into his psyche ready. Probably I think I think in terms of his early development, I think there are more important things like the the handsome in Unity's it. He had access to when he married his wife in seventeen forty, six, the images, mature of juke. She brought with her new two hundred year, and I think that probably allowed him. You know, more freedom to do development as an artist's than than the legacy given to implies on core of just thirty quid. And if if these murders had had an impact on Gainsborough immediately, I think we saw would have heard about it by now. We'd see something in his pictures. There's no hint of of of murderous struggle in any of his. That's right. I mean, when when things about it when things about grace and in the landscapes extrordinary fluency of his language and there isn't much angst is not. There isn't the only thing one might say is that you know, we have all those charming stories of of Gainsborough playing truant in his early life from school and going into the field to to draw a treason and landscape in maybe that was the reflection of of a turbulent domestic lifestyle. And maybe that's why he felt he wants to get out of the house and spend time time amongst trees, which wished dog your back is intriguing question. Let's look early gains in the context of his life because you know. You know, I love those later pictures and the the kind of fluent language of those those these later works. But certainly I find his early works. If if promising I find them quite stilted and difficult to look at in lots of ways. What, what, what do you make of them overall? I know I love against pro. I did little especially games for some some years ago in London with Lindsay Stainton. And I think actually his his, his early landscapes amongst his best, this sort of pure in a way there's less sentiment about them. And our love is only portrait to is as sort of almost caricature figures that so expressive. There's none of the weariness about his some of his later portraits. You know, when you know he famously says he gets bored of painting faces. You don't get that sense in his early portrait. So I am a great fan. Is there a sort of. A clear path between the early in the late pitched you see, stall developed very steadily or their giant leaps in his career. Well, that's extrordinary thing about gauge bazaars development is is really quite varied. And the fact that when he dies apart from his pupil bridge upon nobody is really able to carry on what we call, you know, gains per style, that sort of feathery staccato take Nique and that in turn is so different from his early works, which are very, like Hayman who goes that sort of style. So he is an artist who really quite dramatically. And I think that reflects his sort of rather curious, unconventional personality. He was very witty personally, never minded being rude to even the grandest of his patrons. He was fond of the bottle and so on and so forth. That's an interesting fact there is this sort of. Battle the heart of eighteenth century painting as it's been characterized between Gainsborough and Reynolds and gains was perceived as sort of free spirit and more natural and all about sensibility. Whereas Reynolds doctrinaire and all that kind of stuff. What do you make of that is some of that myth? Will you even get a sense? It is. It's a famous thing about artists being great rivals. We we see that today and it's all great for publicity and hive up for Monday's gains rentals, kind of new, wanting each other up and getting articles on the press. Did them both good deal of favor. I mean, they did have a famous rapprochement and and Reynolds board games was pictures and gains record as being a great admire actually of how various Reynolds technique walls. I have to say probably in the end, I'm I'm more of a gains per person because I find him an artist of greatest sensitivity. I think you know Reynolds. Mr. grant, Matt or anything being very grant and imposing he's, you know, he's the night. He surprised roll academy. One guest slight sense that he slightly constrained by that, whereas gains more the free spirit, a new c. in this marvellous portraits of his daughters. You see in artist, great sensitivity, and of course we mustn't forget, you know, he'd been, he'd lost child very early on, and I think all of these things make him slightly more rounded painter. I wonder if one of the other things that attracts you to gangs above Reynolds is also his gains was clear. Love of vandyke use of couse. Your great hero. Oh, yes, absolutely. And if I lost that long to be surrounded on my deathbeds by adoring family, I'll be echoing gains passwords, which were were all going to heaven and vandyck is of the party. Can you sort of detect the clear Mark Van Dyke in his work in terms of the language. I think you can in certain of the poses in the cage Nally. He indulges in Van Dyke dress, but for me, it's more on the technique gains does go for that sort of thin, lazy application of paint. You see in fantastic's later English works in particular. And of course he does lots of copies of Van Dyke and what what I think there are clear echoes in in canes, prevent Dyke's both artists in order to get through vast numbers of patrons Sapp before them developed a very speedy style painting. And has basically how the only way they could cope with it on both pulled it off Ray successfully. We should point listeners in direction of some of the best paintings that they can see in public galleries. I can think oversee the National Gallery has the most extraordinary creation in London, but there's also the picture gallery. Where else would you recommend that they go wherever you know in the states or in the UK. Is was house. There's the Frick collection way. You'll see those series of wonderful lengths which are not any brilliant books about, but also in ever accuracy to conditions. So they shimmer in the way against when he's working does? Yes. The remarkable things in the Matt has a a decent gains collection to from right. Yes. If you go around the man at his, it's amazing how that huge galleries devoted to English artists eighteenth century against Reynolds, Anne Rumney. And it's a real reminder of how English eighteenth century porch dislike gains per took America by storm. In the first part of the twentieth century. Mendel thank you very much for joining me. Okay. Find bender's call them the diary of an art historian in the newspaper every month and read more of his said his website, our history news dot com. We'll be back with the interview with rose league Oberg after this. Shipren nineteen. Twenty-three. The prophet has never been out of print which makes him rankling side. Shakespeare is one of the best selling poets in the world that wasn't enough the Lebanese American writer and thinker was also a master painter. In Paris. He mixed with Rodin Yates and ume, and it was there that he painted portrait of Charlotte Taylor, one of three Bremerton Bonham's modern contemporary Middle Eastern on sale in London on the twenty. Fourth of Tober as bombs department head means gouge explains quote Gebran was and remains a hugely influential figure in the Arab world lifted entire state to a family museum in Lebanon. So the appears of these three paintings of option is a major almost unheard event. You can find out more Bonhams dot com. Now, if you want to get to grips with the history of performance up, then you should look no further than Rowsley Goldberg's hugely influential book performance art from futures into the present. I published by Thames and Hudson in nineteen seventy nine. It's been regularly updated and remains an essential text. Gobert first came to prominence as a curator at the kitchen in New York in the late nineteen seventies and program live for many museums before founding. The nonprofit organization performer in two thousand four. She's been the chief curator at the performer bi-annual in New York City since two thousand five. And now go book has a new book also published by Thames and Hudson coup performance. Now live art for the twenty th century. I spoke to go Burke when she was in London for freeze week earlier this month. It seems to me that it's important. You write a new book rather than a new chapter for the old book because there has been an explosion of performance art in the mortis making performance, but also this very important development, which is that performance has been adopted into what we might go the mainstream. Yes, I would say at three big reasons for that one is that histories catching up and by that, I mean for those of us who followed, of course, conceptual at seventies so much work that was not a bad making objects that was about process. The flip side of that was always performance has been so Joan. Jonas marina Kerley shame on veto country and so many, many artists working in that way. What also having by the end of the nineties people say, why start the book in two thousand is those artists really matured and looking back on their work recognized where they wanted to take it to another. Scale to get another kind of recognition. So you looking at artists, two thousand who've actually been doing performance for thirty years and really very knowledgeable with their material with the way the work is presented and working in museums because after all, by then those artists were ready for MS for major museum exhibitions. So that's one of the elements. I would say the new kind of museum has also created a space. I think with take modern opening in two thousand. The museum became a kind of culture palace a place for a lot of excitement, huge spaces, large crowds of people. Old days. We used to go to museum and whisper like he wouldn't church library, you know, be very quiet. Keep your voice down. That's not the case with the contemporary museum. And then third reason really is performer this via Neil that I started in two thousand four. I addition was two thousand five, which showed three things. It really, I wanted to show the extraordinary history that I felt a distantly being left out of the history of the twentieth century. After all is a multimedia century. Think of all all of flesh, three or mind all images that come to mind whether Taina Hoke or the data or the Futurists Barra has surrealism Dr futures, etc, etc. Action actions, all kinds of action that actually stir up a whole new movement in each case. So I think that history was something that I felt I'm so I, I have to make a bigger platform to get the story out there because every time it comes up, people still treating performs like a side show. And I'm saying, no, it's actually central to the history of twentieth century, and that's been my drumbeat right from the beginning, not just to write something called performance art, but to really do revisionists rewriting of the twentieth century's they're all these places where we have to drop performance. Back in to its rightful place and show how much it changed in change the landscape will the list literally the texture and what artist and then performer showed. The second thing was to commission new work for the twenty first century looking again, little backtrack to late nineties. Think of where we were technologically the lodge, projections, some names that come to mind. Sharona shot is Julian, Jillian wearing peer, we and on and on and on gorgeous beautiful material seduces you on from visually and until actually and politically. So it's worked that had a lot of content so much of the work you're looking at the late nineties was showing us the world on large screens, but as something that was also somewhere between performance and film so commissioning performance that would have that level of excellence, that level of seduction full. All the right reasons. I, I like to think we can be seduced by beautiful work. That's also dealing with very difficult subject matter. And then performance show that are this this history, it showed that we can produce and really get behind artists with them. Find funding, find venues performance was never supported in that way. And and then again, we showed that actually performs can have a very large public because it's it's people looking at people, you know, you actually don't need a PHD in, you know, very tough sort of theory in order to have a response to a lot of this works. The accessibility people in front of people, people looking at other people looking across the room at other people, but also the sociability of watching action and getting very close to decide years while you there. One of the interesting aspects of the book which I think you're very well is this idea that performance is expanding genre when we're not just seeing sort of narrow. A narrow language performance, which is sort of repeated in updated. We're actually seeing performance from lots of different severe is creeping into art and art creeping into those fears in turn. Can you explain me more about that particular with theater and dance in particular and thinking, you know, I'll start by saying that the world is a very permissive place, which is what why we also attracted to. If you're in the music and exclusively music world, or let's say classical new music of last hundred years on dance. It's much more difficult to break through and really take take your material apart the art world. Again, traditionally, the traditionally is it's untraditional traditionally, it's it's a radical place. The last, let's again, look at the last hundred years or so. The art will attracted the dances in the sixties in in New York dances, musicians, filmmakers. The radical think is in all those areas. Let's throw out some names. Steve rush, fill glass in the dance world, Tricia Brown Yvonne Rainer on those work that that work could not fit into dance. In those days. It's at subsequently been finally acknowledged almost like the prodigal son returns to the music hierarchy, you know, so feel glasses now extraordinarily he's the works always been from the beginning, but it's finally back in in the hierarchy. He's a classic who supposedly. So and who were those first audiences? I ordnance artists sending in lofts talking in all artists of all different genre talking to each other. So I think that that's, that's a very important part of this history that it that the those working in new don's lets us use the new I e, but or the Evan guard or the radical breakthrough in all agendas, come to the art world for their first audiences because it's this place where you can really experiment. And so you know, that's again another very important way to see the present because how do we deal with the new media? How do we deal with are we really paying attention to the scale to the the hi lo which used to be so much part of the conversation of eighty seven, no longer exists. I'm you know, work with with younger artists or with students of mine at New York University. There is no high low. We go both ways equally. We did a project helping with Jay z. video and people saying, oh, is this the end of performance are no pop pop. The pop world has always looked to the art world for very radical ideas. John Lennon did it Brian Eno, did it, you know, David Bowie, did it. And so on those people, actually a lot of them went to art school. And again, we're allowed to play at the most radical having come out of this, keep using that word this permissive context. And there are other ways we can talk about performance that it's also allows the artist talk about so many subjects. So many critical subjects right now that everybody's feeling need to comment on and it provides so many different layers about things that artists wanted to talk about. I mean, I was doing a studio visit recently in the painter who will remain a name who's really interested in doing performance said, you know, I make a painting, but I can't get the whole story across the so many ideas that go into this work. And I've had that. That comment from a lot of the artists that we worked with at perform of. One way of going back to the kids to address particular that was performed as part of performance which is recognised cartons work where he restaged particular section from from from Mozart's opera now. I think that's interesting because when I was college in the early nineties, the with the ACA was like the word decorative. It was about the worst thing that you're could be cold, but we are in the situation now where artists can into the world of the two and can into the into a radical space of you notice to shift in that direction. Absolutely. And I've backtrack before the fabulous piece at Ragnar did for performer. In a way it's and there's a whole chapter in the book that really deals with that very specifically. And in some ways, it's almost the easiest question to answer because I'm always ask, well, can you make a definition of performance while in a way by comparing theater and performance is one way to say what performance is not? It's not a bad language. It's not about storytelling. It's not about text even the most abstract theater, you know, Becker, let's say, which is no surprise that are will tends to like beca because again, it's kind of a lot of silences and quiet moments. I think it raises very, very interesting questions and say that the Africa always somehow Sumed like the decorative, but also that that ideas would be there would be a full circle. I think artists in general, don't wanna give away too much. It's like you. You don't tell the whole story. You leave a lot of space in between for the viewer. So in the book I really go use it as an opportunity to say, this is what is theater, and this is what is. Performance and actually don't really like talk to each other very much the to practitioners. But what has occurred is that in that way, and again, to use more academic term deconstructed, the the fact that artists can go in and deconstruct, what are the elements of theater or that theory person. Again, somebody who's working more in an oven mode like Richard Maxwell can step into the because back to my other comment, it's permissive allows him to make a piece of theater that doesn't look anything like a piece of theater and yet to do it in a museum. And it doesn't look like there because it doesn't complete sentence hunk complete a story. You get. I say this likely because of course he could say, of course, I complete a sentence, so not not been salting, but that the Richard Maxwell can move in and do a performance, a piece of theater in a museum context that that breaks down what we think of as theater and. And equally that an l. Greene and drag said or Ragnar Chausson can move into a theater world. I e something where we're sitting in front looking at and totally disrupt the whole idea of what are you looking at? So to for the listener, he took a three minute aria the last song from Mozart's marriage of Figaro which he walked into my office and promptly started singing, and everybody was, you know, this, this amazing man from Reykjavik singing his heart at, and he said, Rosalie, I wanna do twenty times. I think he said, I, I wanna do fifty times. It would be a live loop and we'll take about two hours. So that was the first meeting. I think the third meeting is I well, I think I wanna do five hours fine gopher the final meeting and you know the last the last round was twelve hours. So we began at midday and ended at midnight and it was extraordinarily. And in fact, we. We ended up calling in bliss because I said, people are just going to be totally blissed out, you know. So it was bliss and it was phenomenal. And again, somebody not surprisingly somebody who comes from a lot of theater background, both his parents were in theaters, so he he knew from whence he came. He also talked about this idea of repetition idea, the rehearsal, not just repetition. As we note in terms of, you know, minimalist repetition, but repetition as rehearse, rehearse rehearse over and over again. So he really took all those elements there will. He had a lot of knowledge going into the future which again, often is the the Trajet trajectory about why somebody would be doing that. Another artist of Ellen and drag said Ingar actually came out of theater and one of his comments that I believe I mentioned in that chapter was how quickly you can do something in the world that you have an idea and you can put it on and no one's there to stop you. If you in theatre it's the w-. Work of many people. You have the right, the playwright, the active, the director, the producer, the theater, the place, the lighting design. It's the work of many, the art world that single artists typically the the one. And when you're working in the with the theory group, it is the group it's there are a lot of people involved. I think that sort of directness that to keep that sort of media see performs. It seems so powerful now, because the world we are living in really fractured era, and there is a long history as you say of political engagement with the Fuhrman's and just in fact, we're having this conversation in London and Tanu. Gary's just opened a were, which basically invites the audience to become performers and rise up as a kind of collective action to address the migration crisis. It seems to me that this lens performance an even greater currency at the moment is absolutely you seeing a lot of activism connected to performance right now. Well, it's again, it's right now and has been for a long time. I would say again, Tania's worker attorney has been doing this kind of work for twenty years. It's wonderful to see her to third project at Tate modern, which is fantastic with Tate also to. To be doing that. And each case she's on relenting and there's no compromise. It begins an about people and the people she wants to bring in to be heard, and that is always a capability capacity of performance. And it's so powerful. We did a project last performer with Barbara Kruger, which in some ways was more subtle. It was right after the election. She has election the US election. We will can imagine the motions around that. She managed to create a work that she wanted to be totally four amongst the people are very, you know, hit all kinds of generations. She created a skate park that we actually as well as the skateboard a skateboards and Mienies and sweatshirts, and the whole thing to reach a very large public and all the wording on that was very quietly. Her kind of activism. She's not. Gonna come out and say in her way, she's always very subtle. So it was like, whose values who owns this, whose whose ownership all the language that shoes, we also made subway cards. So people were lining up to get her subway cards. And on those those cards were heard notations about her feelings about the politics of the time. I'm possibly know. The work of Neilly Mahala South African artists who, again, said she had very specific messages she wanted to get across about being African about being LGBT and so on. And we put that material into Times Square. You can't get more public than that. So this this ways to be political is ways to be activists that might not immediately seem like, oh, this is radical performs put. Indeed it is who's been frustrating situation and it is a fascinating. Thank you very much for joining me originally. Thanks, bye. It's now live for the twenty th century is out now and published by Tim's in Hudson. It's forty five dollars in the US and thirty two parents in the UK, and that's all for this week. Do you subscribe to the podcast and you can follow us on Twitter at ten audio that's t. a. an audio. You can also follow us on a main Twitter account and Facebook at the newspaper, and our Instagram is the art newspaper dot official. Thanks to Mark Martin and Bendel to rose Lee and to you for listening join us again next week when we'll be exploring the Bruce nam exhibition at the museum of modern art in New York. See you then. You don't need to be put. Cost is brought to you in a sociation with Bonhams fine. What defines you? Bonhams dot com.

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Special: is art education in crisis? Featuring Bob and Roberta Smith

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:07:37 hr | 1 year ago

Special: is art education in crisis? Featuring Bob and Roberta Smith

"The newspaper put coasties brought to you in association with bonhams auctioneers since seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bottoms dot com hello and welcome to the art newspaper podcast. I'm Ben League. This week is the beginning of term in many. UK Art Schools a moment when a world of possibility opens up to students from across the world but ups education in the UK is in Crisis Isis. The teaching of subjects in schools is under threat from the English baccalaureate or e back which ninety percent of people are expected to be entered for by twenty twenty five the People's steer towards subject seems crucial to young people's education. Get Arts are excluded meanwhile at art schools around Britain funding cuts and a steep increase in student tuition shouldn't fees over the last decade of create more inequality and more limited resources at art colleges creating a huge shift in the dynamics of the art college so this week's episode. It is an education special. We talked to the artist Patrick Brill or Bob and Roberta Smith about his campaign for arts place at the center of the curriculum often expressed directly in his art we look the National Art and design Saturday Club and initiative offering a free Saturday learning program founded by the design is Francis and John Searle and we talked to two professors at Goldsmiths College page about the precious and realities of art schools today in the US we took to the CO author of study on the Benefits of Art Education Schools Patrick Brill known. There's Bob and Roberta Smith is a leading British artist. WHO's campaigned ceaselessly in recent years for importance in the face of its marginalisation in English schools. He also teaches final at London. Metropolitan University and I went there to see him just as the academic year was kicking off this week Bob. When when did you first start making our about our education well. I think I when I was a child. I think all are really the all the artists I really love kind of pedagogues Paul Klee Joseph Boyce Bush. I I love the idea that arsov kind of conversational thing and it's a to and fro ing of ideas and so the idea of so are being educated is both of the artist is about curiosity and trying to find things out once you think you know something something the San Shift and you realize that you other things to be said about it so I do about our education self education in in some ways. I went to university time when they didn't really teach you anything at all. I was just left in a room for four years so I found I feel a bit like an auto diet really although although I university educated and so that's important but to ask you a question really precisely making art about problems without augmentation with two thousand ten when the Co that should govern came in one of the things that happened that I realized instantly is is that when that government came in and they had the those supported by the Liberals and the Conservatives they could throw away their manifestos on start again policies which had been endorsed by the electric a Michael Grove God bless him really took that to heart art and he before the election they were saying they weren't going to do any more educational changes you know because I was tired of constantly changing goalposts in education but he really went for it and he created the single the e back and it marginalized art in schools and I thought at the time I I mean I I I thought that was just an appalling structural change range which was going to damage on education and is one of those things we we sit in the bath and you hear this and you think oh well that means. I'll no not mean and that means that means this. It means to be less kids guide to galleries because they know about you know the V. A. Ah Students is going to damage design Britain British design you know maybe it's a bit of a myth but the idea in the nineteen sixties preached his I got really exciting using because the working classes invited into all schools basically in the fifties so so I just knew that was a bad idea and I started dotted campaigning about it immediately vertical attitude him and and I just did what I could and also I have educational -cational chops because my parents but my dad rand Chelsea art school in the nineteen sixties and so I kind of my dad weirdly gone to lobby Margaret Thatcher about outscores with Henry Moore the Josephs club and and so I kind of had this I have this so memo gene or something he's just he's just gotTa tell these politicians are wrong and I know in the art world I know in the art world and Artis Artisan they don't think about their secretary schoolteacher in fact there are more often lightly to say my art education secretary. It was terrible so I knew that they weren't necessarily going to get immediate support from artists necessarily and so. I thought going to do that and something I know about. It's also political now. I've always been bit of a political artists but it's something political that I really really no it inside out you know so. I'm not contributing just off the cuff remarks. You know I do know about the subject was sitting in an art school. You know I'm in London onto metropolitan. University is is the the main widening participation university in the in the country because of its location the students that we got and and so as an obstacle it's the most diverse outscore the country's pretty unique and so it's kind of a to know about these issues not just talking at the top of my head and it's interesting this idea that I think you're right in saying that very many artists had problematic experiences of being to art in schools but one of the things about when you are too is it does expand your horizons in the sense that for instance. I can remember you know yes. You were forced to de Tight. It'll still lives and things that didn't potentially a make you into an artist but also I was introduced to Dr. Ali and I was introduced to Matisse. Isn't that sent the that's. The thing that's being denied to children is just an opening up of their sensibilities isn't it. I think that's I think that's right and I mean I I. I met the art teacher the other day and and Mr Hawks and miss the Hawks really taught me anything but what Mr Hawks did was that he said he was really into dub reggae and what was the hawks did that. He said you've got to go to the anti-racist is to I N Al Carnival and so we traveled to Brixton and we saw Elvis Costello and the attractions turns and and all these bands you know and and it was an amazing experience so in a way that sort of this sort of spice vice. I think other teachers can do that but the this idea of the art room as a creative space. Is You know he's a very important thing for for children and really it's it's subject in schools where you where you can bring what what you know in other subjects too you know thinking about politics philosophy or mathematics or pattern or chemistry you know you can bring all that and and he can create a synthesis of all those kinds of ideas and in fact that's in college. I also knew it wasn't just about micro go and the changes to the APP but the it was the fact that that would have up and down the educative system so what's happening primary education who's the RSP. Let's be you know pretty much. Squeezed out of lots of primary education was totally wrong. You know anybody who knows the history of education thinks about people like mood off style. I mean I'm not an advocate of Steiner's education particularly but you know that children and learn language in a conversation with their parents and their peers fire visual imagery by looking at things by by joining the circle insane that's smother by drawing a square and saying that's dad and then you have the conversation says dialogical. There's something called joint attention. Actually human beings having dogs have exchanged Jay z's that we can we can talk about a third thing and have a relationship with a second person by this third thing is like a triangulation violation of imagery and ideas and art is absolutely principal to that visual allergies principle to that so squeezing our promise scores. This is like a real anti-humanitarian thing to do. It's going to ruin people's lives really not create better people for the jobs market so all of that all of that thinking rarely fueled a series of works and protests and films and ended up with me standing against Michael Govan election and it's still going on but for Thames and Hudson called. You are an artist which kind of outlines why people who don't think of themselves as artists should should think think of themselves as artists so there was tremendous support in the arts community in the visual arts community. Did you think that had an effect did the politicians listen today. Just plowing cloud. I think the effort by the arts community is created a bit of solidarity and a sense that the issue's important and also it's very important to gal people's take on issues It's not just one voice. Our isn't about mom person's voice so that's good but the all the politicians have taken absolutely no nothing from what we've been saying it's on they've plowed on with the back and they will continue to and and can't have listened to tour totally claw fears and damaging British education dodging educational prospects for kids and the damaging bridge rich design and our ability to you know. I think it's a bit of a myth. USPA about Britain being creative and all that everybody else culture around the world kind of colonialism but but actually you're you're completely butchering that USB politicians are doing that they care about the all they care about is league tables and Statistics and marketing and It's just totally wrong so it in essence what you're saying is in order for there to be a substantial shift in a way that the also taught in schools then they need to be a change of government well the needs to be more more than that there needs to be needs to be a change in a kind of global understanding of these things really. I mean creativity not in humanity and about are you know I mean the UN UN Charter. has it has it pretty much says kids should have access to their culture but all people now think should be four participants in that country from the off and and it needs to the on that level will is is about a change of government. I mean God. We need a checkup for so many reasons but it's not necessarily that tits to make the shift that we need in primary education it takes a shift in in how we conceive of Education Russian. There are people thinking along these lines in the peace league tables which is really the league tables. was the where they were the principal organizational force behind you know supporting mathematics and science subjects and technological subjects in the far. Always you know people people my go foot while we got to do it like Singapore that was because of the Pisa League tables well now. They're saying that creativity is going to be one of the principal things the that we have to teach in in school so that will change and I think I think there is some grounds for hope but it we you just need politicians with more humanistic imagination to to think we don't want to read. I want to make children's lives so ratchet hoping her hoops and hurdles of educational attainment you know we got to stop that art and Let people grieve in primary schools and secondary schools and and and and and the lungs of school to exaggerate that metaphor keep going yeah the really and and but also music and drama is not a battle for the for the art room. It's a battle for the arts in general and understanding understanding really that education shouldn't be side load into all these subjects really really history and geography. I think there should be taught to coach or copy and Maths and science and choreography an art. It's it's all the same thing the the places that the edges of things edges of subjects. That's where all the interesting stuff happens said. You'll do planning on with the campaigning. Your still doesn't include a lot of Eddie say you're that you're writing a book about about about our as sort of human rights essentially yeah yeah yes trying to get across. I'll be I've been totally get that idea out there to say that it's something fundamental fundamental to all humanity not just artists. I don't think artists console where the ball does our of our should about everybody ability participating in these things and one of the new ideas that you have to develop a constitution. Can you tell us something about the constitution of the arts. The have it here and it's it's a draft form but yeah no the idea of the constitution of the arts slightly bonkers idea because in y depends on things not being pinned down but but lots of people being including myself came up for manifest does us fully so in every election. I've been doing things you know about the arts to try and get people to think about it in a way that is to do with sort of democracy and human rights really but so we had a vote arts campaign but this year voter arts is coming up with this idea of the Constitution Shutian for the arts and the idea is to say is to say all the things that people have been saying about the arts but also put it back back to the art world. You know if you have a constitution for the arts. You're advocating the arts but you're also saying some pretty. You should also be saying some pretty pretty uncomfortable things for the art world so so it's so it's kind of it's a different take. It's not just a advocating being things to advocating the arts to government a lot of the you know sort of. I didn't really set up anything. The party had this idea that we'd have at this party and we had a big conference in scarver that was all about advocating how to better advocate. The Arts to government was one of the lines in it but this is about say we need to advocate the arts but we also need to go in house all day and when you say the art will be mean the very broad art world as in the art market as well as museums and nonprofits and that's it yeah well the Constitution a manifesto is almost something to get behind kind if you're political party or something or or lots of artists who've come up with manifesto futurist and blasts and and all all of that stuff but the constitution is more of a kind of work working document. Is it kind it says how things operate constitution really now of course the institutions are not joined at the hip in the way that the legislature the an executive and the judiciary are not going to the hit but a kind of tie. Some of these things down is to say a EH. Could you sign up for this. What would you have in your all to be more generous to say. What would you have in your own constitution. Do you WANNA give us an example of something. That's in that constitution article. One article want says the Voice of the child is central to the Constitution of the arts art makes children powerful people powerful born out of the UN charter the rights of child every child should have access an introduction to their cultures of future baptism musical instruments clay paint pencils words and Darcy's. He's must be provided if we hear the voice of the Child. This is the key element to read in this article. If we hear the voice of the child we will listen to the adult so if you don't I want to develop the voice of the child. You won't hear from the adult et. Politicians don't like the arts they don't WanNa hear from the populace if you if you teach people to sing they're going to shout back at you and that's what we want and so all schools should be schools must be taught alongside design and mathematics in primary education in some included. Leonardo subject so that's a kind of manifesto point but article free. He says no dirty pallets no dirty money. No one wants to exhibit in a building built on the deaths of opium addicts. Now wants to teach children on a program funded from the pre proceeds of human despair or despair of the planet. The Voice of nine golding is worth more than their millions artists don't aim to make money and and to make things better know to free pool ports artworks sold his luxury goods and as such bias should contribute to society via tax Asian so the idea is also to say the not all our land you know the art world is lunatic unregulated regulated wild west of kind of activity which has lots of benefits go free franking but the downsides Oscar Article Four Article Forces let them in don't shut them out. No gatekeepers or pop pick as long gone in the music business is the idea that the AGroup of music journalists and celebrities can sit around telling people what's hot and what's not people have access knowledge of the arts in a way that empowers them to make the Mike and former own views picking prizes about the pile of the jury or nothing else it reinforces prejudices and scuttles careers contemporary art the museum's must move to an error era where their job becomes about the curiosity of all art made every museum was how genuine open a group shows so that artists could build their careers in an independent manner less prizes more inquiry. It's not called to discover the undiscovered artists in the last decade of alive. Let's call is to build and celebrate the careers of artists so we know about them before. It's too late. This is about quality or people have quality. There were not people people who have culture people who we must value all voices audiences muscled like taxpayers and programs must the people of the world so the idea came in this is the are in a way like oxygen. We should be denying people. It's the oxygen of rights and so so that the idea is to try and kind of get people to think well actually are is something that is to do with me you think he should now. Francis and John Searle founded the national art and design Saturday Club in two thousand nine. It gives thirteen to sixteen euros the chance to study up and design at their local college. Oh University for free the idea was based on the couple's own experience in post war Britain where they attended Saturday classes at Lsu oncologists next week. Bombs will host an auction auction of work by artists including bridget Riley Frank our back and Richard Long to raise funds for the Saturday club. Trust I went to Somerset House home of the trust to speak to the soils aw Frances and Joan the Saturday club emerged from your own experiences as young people. I wonder if he might tell us about that experience. Yes of course I was my mother suggested I went along. She was an artist herself and I was and miserable at school and making paintings and started making my own clothes most very young so I went along to my first Saturday morning art school and walked in and immediately. I just felt this is the place for me. It was an incredible sensation. There were things on display which I love this place laceless full of the smell of art materials and we just had to draw and sat on a donkey with some charcoal and did life drawing and it was magical uh Joe when I was fourteen my art teacher Mr Ramsey one day came up to me and said you like art and I said CBS and he said would you like to do Saturday classes at Hornsey College of art and I give it a try and a winter long and like France's I was was in love with it in the first few minutes on. I felt this was like home and so I went Saturday classes on US fourteen and a year later people were asked if they'd like to sit the exam to go to Hornsey fulltime what did that entail piece of paper and some county crayons store pitcher or anything like six weeks later. I got a postcard saying I've been accepted. fulltime course I started at sixteen which you could then but it was a Saturday morning classes which completely changed my life with a government initiative or local authority initiative CEVA public initiative in other words it was it was actually an initiative that came out of Winston Churchill's wartime government interestingly an in into nine thousand nine hundred forty four the cabinet was talking about the future and it was it knew the war was going to be one next year you and they were telling their minds towards what Britain would be doing in the world and they were very very worried about trade and what's new and they were particularly worried about the quality of design of British products and they did too key things first of all they set up the cancer industrial. Oh design which later on became the design council which I chaired Rwandan the ninety s and the other thing they did was they got little daugherty's to ask art. Teachers is to Notch fifteen year olds Tuesday Saturday classes. They're like law school and the idea was that maybe they could create a title generation of young people who would go along at fourteen enjoy what they're doing. Stick go full time and become the pioneers of new you design the British products who will trade all about money in the economy of course but my goodness it worked and Francis my are amongst them longer people who are getting a little bit older than we sweep. There is generation of people who went through this experience and actually formed the bedrock of creative industries sector as we night now so let's rewind ten years from now and you set up your own new form of Saturday nightclub. What was the impetus for that. Well we set up the Soros Foundation lonely solar designed business we'd have twenty five years and we've done a lot of work in schools long educational projects and thought that we could do something using our own professional experience us in running projects in a different way where the young people were in control of the project they were as well the clients and we didn't a series of very big projects over the first ten years of that and Lancelot and had some fantastic results with young people really really exciting. Many of them are still in touch. They're on their second babies now unless than touch with us so that was really wonderful same time we had this idea for rekindling the idea of the sesame clubs we started planning for it and it took a while to develop we approached four colleges out of London to see if they'd participate and they did we awesome to recruit young people between the ages of thirteen and sixteen and and the experiment worked very well. It ran over the academic year. We did interventions that we learned about on the previous things is that we've been doing with young people so we invited all the people to London to look London galleries that proved enormously popular previous projects the loved the chance to let's see London that was the number one thing and then to go together and swizzle fantastic thing to John just before we put the micon as it were you were telling me that arcologies are in a way an untapped resource that we can because they're staffed with security. The lights are on heating zome. No it's not just Arcos universities colleges and lots of other institutions so if you just think about it think of a map of the UK hey there are all these buildings everywhere in the UK. Within reach for young people who during the week have got fantastic shooters tasting young people who many of them are studying for degree but when you get Saturday what does the building to mason facilities celebrities massively better than schools and testing shooters and what we found also is students who love to get involved as what we call student campuses so there is an infrastructure. There's this invisible infrastructure which we thought could be made USOV off and it's worked unbelievably well so a if you're a young person even in rural areas they they will be something somewhere near you. There will be an institution of some kind that could run Saturday clubs and I am now that we've been doing this for ten years in fact our foundations being twenties. This has been going for the last ten years. Our aim now is to see if every single thirteen to sixteen year old in the country you could have access to go to a Saturday club subjects of their choice right throughout the year you imagine how that would change society imagine what they would do for so many young people and it's completely puzzle because the infrastructure exists. You don't have to build anything if we look at the Capitol Kosovo. Almost any project that you read about this billion spent on building stuff. You don't have to build a thing it exists chooses are prepared to do sustains and they love doing it because one of the key secrets of the program is that they create their own local program within the context that the nationwide program and you know what I say to young people when I talked with say look. This is three key things I this is free terribly. Important is not Anacostia family anything. It's free second. You don't have to go now. That's important because this is not school. It's not compulsory. It actually sits alongside but not inside the forks Richard Lamm and so there is this lovely relationship between the kids in the schools the teachers and the students in the university's we she's very unusually sorry very special and the third thing is that there are no accepts notice exams and that's terribly important again because these young people are very very very tested all week every week and this is just one respite from honesty. How are they will. If you talk to tutors about the way they have ZANU help evaluate how the kids going. It's very very very powerful. I think for most of the children involved. It's a very special day so very very special experience and another wonderful thing is that they make friends and for many of them they find for the first time of their lives are actually social group where they feel very comfortable and extremely happy calls. You have to resource this. You have to raise funds. You have to persuade people say the and one of the ways that doing the Israelis bottoms well this wonderful opportunity we are we are so grateful and we especially especially grateful to all the artists who've been incredibly generous and supportive tell us well bridget riley frank up notably. Edmund Well on WHO's one of our justice who is the most special Passan Antony Gormley history classes with us who has the most beautiful Mane and so I wanna I wanna be bothered I mentioned previously and many others and the auction is on the third of October. Yes do you have to target for how much she wants to arrays and do you have a sort of dedicated is that dedicated fund for that goes particular. It's particularly about growing club and like a lot of people were focusing on young people. Don't get many opportunities so it's particularly rural locations where things are harder for them. There's less opportunity so we're focusing on a those kinds of impede in the jargon education jargon which will hate but there is is widening participation is the phrase so it's trying to reach the young people who normally wouldn't have this kind of opportunity and sixty percent. Thank our of our our kids. Anyway are from widening participation backgrounds and atrocities rural areas but also I mean you go to some of the urban urban areas in this country is appalling. You find kids who've never in here. We are in Somerset House in central London. There are kids in schools here. Who've I've never been inside a gallery in London so particularly particularly grateful to raise Taylor who's been amazing from beginning of this and he's the guy who setting the prices see so he said John Fruits is thinking so let's think thank you aw we'll be back those miscarriage and discussing research paper in the US looking at the importance of arts education in schools after this French artist shown to buffet was never happy with the status quo the root movement which he founded consciously turned its back on traditional notions of beauty and so create outside the cultural mainstream. You Buffet is still today. A significant reference point for contemporary artists do buffets nineteen sixty five painting in cafetiere five for example which often bonds postwar and contemporary art sale in London next week we imagine the humble coffee pot using the assemblage of unique shapes and colors Burnhams international postwar and Contemporary Art Director Giacomo. Sama explains cafetiere five is a signature painting from highly important and influential or loop series which was recently the subject of a major exhibition in Venice. Were eloquently combines. The artist boundless interesting unbridled pure form of artistic expression who the limits graphic extolled the old news cycle to find out more visit bonhams. Dot Com now. Daniel Bowen is a professor at Texas am university who jointly with the recent study on the benefits of arts education in schools. He study centered on the Houston school system. The seventh largest in the United States Nancy Kenny our senior editor in New York spoke to him from our New York Studio. You undertook your study at a time when the proportion of students receiving arts education in the United States had shrunk shrunk drastically. Is there reason why so many public school systems have pulled back yes so this is actually a trend that is really bitchy related in the past twenty years with the major emphasis being on standardized testing this has been driven by education policy makers emphasizing intestate accountability so what's really happened since really the passing of the no child left behind act is schools have this tendency to focus on what's it's getting measured and what they get sanctioned on and that tends to have been the past twenty years has really been reading math into a lesser extent science and social studies scores the results schools aren't really focusing has much on the arts because they don't necessarily directly see the benefit that it has on. Do you think that they're being held accountable for and unfortunately school better most likely to come under sanction which also tends to correlate with school serving historically underserved communities the these school communities are losing out on opportunities and disproportionately because they're the ones that are even more likely to to put more focus than emphasis on standardized testing. I see and what was Houston situation as the arts education when your research began so Houston is probably not unlike many community throughout the United States being very large urban district that serves a disproportionately lower socio economic community because of that we're talking about a lot of schools that had and made traffic cuts in their educational offerings so Houston much like a lot of other communities though it's intended to vary a lot but the since we are being often school was pretty closely correlated with socioeconomic status so school serving more affluent communities can still have a pretty or I should say not high but about the same level of ours educational opportunities that they've had over the last thirty or forty years whereas schools that were serving bring students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Those were the ones to wear the cuts were happening more radically so in some cases in Houston there were some schools that didn't actually have have any sort of fine arts specialist in the building just because of the fact that so much of the emphasis has been going to other areas and in many cases schools just don't have the budget you did and you know when when price in many cases the arts become one of the first things on the chopping block. What did you set out to discover through this study so there's been a huge boom in arts inch or not an arts education but in education research in general because of the availability woody of all these standardized test scores but because of the fact that their combined to math and reading primarily you. Don't we'll have a lot of on paid of research. That's investigated what happens when the increase or lose out on arts educational opportunities -tunities so what we wanted to do was we wanted to. Kinda step in and provide a critical study you know for much-needed void in the in the literature you're kind of see what's going on as a result of these decreases and one of the things that we really had to do as a result of this was we had to really broaden our outcomes well. There have been a lot of correlation studies being the show that there tends to be positive relationship between arts learning reading and math and reading there hasn't been a lot of rigorous research to to demonstrate that that's actually a causal relationship and they're also hasn't been an examination damnation of educational outcome that many arts researchers believe theoretically tied to then at of the arts so we wanted to include a broader set of outcome measures to to really examine hypotheses and what age group did you target so so the the program itself which he called the active initiative primarily targeting elementary schools so a pre kindergarten through fifth grade so four year olds through eleven year olds it was also serving a handful of middle schools which were twelve year year old two fourteen year olds was the primary area of emphasis and its first few years in which the study was taking place in how did you quantify whether they benefited from arts education yeah so we really relied on to sources of data to attempt to quantify the impacts of the arts so we were able to get access to the Houston school district records and those records included data on on everything from student test scores in math reading writing science and Social Studies it also had data on student absences disciplinarian fractions as demographic variables in terms of identified gender race ethnicity socioeconomic status what is so we had all that data which will also allow us to treat these students over over several years throughout their educational careers we also wanted to collect additional data on a broader set of outcomes so in order to do that we also issued surveys to the students. It's we created these surveys by going through the literature and looking at a bunch of different instruments that had been constructed to assess students on outcomes such jazz school engagement compassion for others our empathy tolerance as well. There's a few other things so we did a combination of both using a data that was already collected by the school district and then pairing that with survey data that we administered or the surveys that we administered to students collect original data so were you essentially contrast to groups like control group versus another group that had arts education so yeah so the way that this program came to be was a there were dozens of schools throughout Houston that rising to fight as having very very low levels of educational learning opportunities made available able to their students so like a cross sector collaboration to where money was raised to come in and provided did or basically restore or opportunities for these schools as kind of blake a pilot kind of investigate the impacts of these these interventions we decided to do was randomly assigned half the schools that participated in the program to receive the money the first couple of years to provide these programs and then the other half of the schools were delayed when they would be receiving the funds necessary to provide ride these programs so through Random Association we were able to create a tree group control group and the pair the students in each respective. It's a group to identify the effects of of receiving the funds to provide these opportunities and what were the completion of the study so the main conclusions were was that we found significant and substantial increases with the students receive the treatment in terms of their writing achievement we also found a significant substantial reduction and the proportion of students at these schools who were receiving disciplinarian fractions and we also have found improvements of students showing passion for one another at least in terms of their survey responses so they were more likely to say that they cared what about their classmates and wanted to make sure that they weren't being treated badly. when we examine just the elementary school students who were who remembers burn thirty six of the forty two schools in the study we acid found increases in terms of student school engagement so students were much more likely to say that they enjoyed coming to the school and that it was a place that welcomed them we all do balanced in for more likely that they wanted to continue their education through college and we also found increases in what we call consolidated empathy which basically means that students say that they're able to learn more about their classmates as a result of art so physically sharing are learning about our cheering discussing with one another enables them to kind of become much more familiar and and AH gives them the ability to empathize with another which we believe is an extremely valuable outcome in education in anything. Come about as a result of this study yeah so we've actually had some positive responses from the school district so the independent school district just hired. I think roughly three dozen or specialists I in large part in response to this study seeing benefits of the arts for students it has really inspired the school district to ramp up efforts. It's one of the largest hires of certified art specialists in a long time mm-hmm. We're also getting a lot of feedback from other school districts throughout the country saying that advocates and stakeholders are able to reviews these findings to really make a strong push for the arts like like I said earlier like in many cases we've primarily been looking at AH outcomes of of educational intervention through math and reading scores which we think is to some extent hindered the ability to really make the case for the arts but this really shows that yards do has meaning educational outcomes and that there is quite lost as a result of of these cuts that have been taking place in the last twenty five years so we're hoping that advocate can use this these findings to really help make the push to restore the arts in an inner schools. Well well thank you. Dan Pleasure dogs is arguably arguably the most famous of London's Arcologies in recent decades the crucible for the young British Artists Revolution in the late nineteen eighties nineteen ninety s after Damien Hirst curated his seminal Alexa bishen freeze featuring goldsmith an Ma students but what are the pressures on our schools today amid huge shifts in funding and student fees. I went to Goldsmith missed to speak to two professors there Richard Noble and Michael Archer Michael you've been teaching in Arcologies for decades needs in the last decade. It seems to me that they have been pretty major shifts in the relationship between students and art schools because with this introduction of these Jewish and fees. Is that your perception and in what ways do you feel. That relationship has changed. Yes have been changes. The the major one I think which comes from digitization of tuition and fees is the the shift in understanding among students of the relationship between themselves and the institution the two Shen all of this was inevitable and was clearly articulated by academics throughout the country that there is no way way that students would not quite quickly see themselves as consumer in relation to the higher education institutions and and so all of the the structures of education how it is you teach and in particular how it is that you assess begin to have a number of different precious puts upon them It's it's fine. I I mean the model that I suggest the students is that it's more like joining a gym than getting getting into a shop that you can pay your fees for the gym but if you don't do the work you don't get fit and it's really not the gyms fault that you end up still not being fit but clearly there are all kinds of pressures which suggest that for example all of the AH the noise that one hears from the office for students grade inflation that is as night follows day the consequence of the introduction of fees at that level and Richard. Is there a sense in which institutions are putting pressure on the art departments to sort of confirm that process of students becoming consumers. Yes I am not sure sure they're putting specific pressures on art departments. I think that the the new legislation that includes universities Christie's under the Consumer Protection Act is created a lot of regulations that universities feel they have to comply with and this affects a whole range of things the way you advertise courses the kind of information you provide in advance the way you manage student expectations but it also also affects disciplinary procedures for instance. If someone asks badly the range of of of a disciplinary procedures open to us have to be somehow coordinated with the consumer protection law and the new ombudsman that set-top stop to kind of regulate whether or not universities are treating their consumer students fairly so there are whole range of things that come come to us as a regulations that we some level have to comply with now of course we duck and dive we don't you know we we are as. Michael has said we're very resistant to accepting the consumer model for students and we try our best to in a way insulate them from that but but of course at the same time when they want something and they can very quickly become you know the angry person in the shoe shop or supermarket so yeah. It's tell me something about. I'm intrigued how it has affected tate the way that students respond to the institution to you the origin that can mean the tutors but the institution more broadly. Michael Pepsi might say something about how about you know what's the experience of teaching the students like me. I think there's one thing I'd like to say initially about this. Which is I think both Richard Tonight been talking rather more generally about education rather than specifically flexing on art but of course when dealing with odd and wants dealing with a whole group of students who you are essentially inviting to be self generating in terms of their ideas not telling them what to make telling them what to do. They are the ones who are coming up with the ideas. They are the artists who you're talking to what you are encouraging encouraging them to do and to develop the ability to do over the three years is consistently to to ask questions and to be in terms of their own discipline as demanding as they possibly can be so do this new kind of as it were economic market oriented structure for education in general actually does have a particular face when we're talking about art education because there are lots of so two blurred lines between on the one hand the way that you are wanting students endlessly to be asking you questions and wanting things of you while at the same time trying to do what Richard's test which is the manage their broader expectations about simply what is possible within the three years of degree so is there a sense in which despite this being problematic idea that the the more transactional relationship there is a certain sentencing in which students they might have possessed more agency in this process. Yes they do uh and as I say it. It's it's somehow always encouraged because they ask for something and as as a Futa you want to provide whatever that is the kind of support will the interest in the engagement with the work that they're doing the ideas and and how they might develop those unrealized them in that work and you never want to close that off. You never want to say please that's enough. You've had everything that this college can give you but of course they will always continue to you do it and on the whole I have to say that something that high thoroughly cherish and without it the program this particular program and it's you know it's very positive features would would be diminished which a deal to say something about the way to structure the program and how something which seems very difficult to structure our education competing with a kind of institutional model. I think we've been very fortunate. Goldsmiths in the sense that the art department part of the university since its foundation in the eighteen eighties so the university's always been quite tolerant of the uniqueness and eccentricities ace of of art education I mean Michael can prep speak this better but in terms of undergraduate education and Aditi postgraduate education. We're are trying. We tried I think quite successfully to preserve the model it was developed but John Thompson Michael Martin in the nineteen seventies and eighties so when undergraduate students come in they're all mixed together in the studios and in the tutor groups and they learn from each other as well as from their tutors. We have large numbers of visiting tutors. Come in from outside because we're in London and we can do that makes a aw makes us a very interesting program for students. We have a now I think is a consequence of of the consumerization Ariza. If you like of universities we have many more moments in which students can articulate their desires at a sort of structure level so we have staff student for the students may want more time in the studios. They may want to larger casting lab. They may want want a better mental health services. I mean the arrange of things like that and I think the whole those have been quite positive. I mean at times students demand things that we just can't provide and it's frustrating because you work really hard to create an environment were they all have studios where they have excellent workshops and laboratories fantastic teachers and yet they want more but as Michael says in a way we need that we need that ambition. We need that drive. You know kid like any person my generation you know we tend to think as our parents thought about us that our children have overweaning sense of entitlement. You know it's hard to resist that at times but I think Michael's absolutely right. I think the way the drive to improve things affects us. Is that generally we do every year. We make improvements a lot of driven bus June so in a way if you're leading an art course Richard might maybe you could talk to about this. You have to in a way one of the primary abilities to try and nurture that kind of collaborative collaborative spirit and the way the way students can learn from each other as well as from Titas. Yes I think that was part of the genius of transformation that John Thompson affected in in the nineteen seventies is that he created an environment where people had to work together where third year students worked with first year students were they critique each other's work and and that kind of inter year engagement I think has been really beneficial and important in. It's one of the things that we really hang onto. We also have a sort of system where when the degree shows come the first and second years I have to work for the third years in preparation degree show that so they get a sense of what it's like the of the pressure of what you need to do. I think that's all really positive and so yes. It's it's it's. It's really important that we particularly Michael says in a in a program where where much of the curriculum most of the curriculum is generated by the students themselves this process constantly interrogated investigated and discuss so it is a talking shop as well as a place where people have to make stuff all the time because of the COP has been a lot of focus on the need need for universities to draw in increasing numbers of students from overseas simultaneously you one of the things which is most benefited British art scene in recent decades has been this wonderfully cosmopolitan environment. How do you see that balance at Goldsmiths now. In terms of the balance between oversea students students from here I think it's it's quite a good balance. I mean I think that Goldsmiths and the Royal College in the slate and some other central Sumarlin's have been very important to the ecology of the London Art World and its development over the past thirty years which has been amazing partly because we have drawn people from so many different parts of the world they come here to study and they often stay because the environment is very supportive and as many opportunities and so on there is no doubt the same time that the expansion of noni students has been driven by economic factors. I I mean that started in the nineteen eighties it must be said in one thousand nine hundred eighty in fact because I remember being a student at the LLC and having my fees raised dramatically and shockingly but in any case it's it's it's the pressure has become much greater since two thousand twelve because this all our income ververs natural amount of our income comes through at Goldsmiths comes through tuition so in our department and we've managed this spy we have about thirty to thirty five percent overseas students at the undergraduate level and we have a a year zero and extension program where students you want to know who from overseas you want to do. Undergraduate course tend to do that program. I I and they can work on their English language skills. They learn what it is to be at. Goldsmiths often haven't done a foundation year so it isn't a foundation course but it functions for some of them has way of preparing them for the or the joint ours program that we run at the be level and so that gives us a way of making sure that the students from overseas who joined the BA's are ready. Ah So we try to manage the we think it's fantastic we think out a huge amount to the programs but we need need to be sure that they're at the level where they can flourish and support the students who are supporting them and what about the balance of 'em for want of a better word class backgrounds goats miss because one of the famous things about that generation of artists that emerged from here having been taught by John Thompson and micro mart in in the eighties was that you had people like Sarah Lucas Michael Landy who were working class kids who had the same opportunities as anybody else is is there any erosion of the opportunities given to people from working class backgrounds now we have. I'm a program which is specifically focused on widening participation. I mean there is a college one but not within the department we also have this so we have connections with a whole range of local colleges but also local schools and we have someone on whose specific role it is to organize a sessions in groups of students to go and work with pupils in the local schools and this has quite a positive effect in terms of students who then think I'd never really thought about doing an art degree but actually there are all kinds of ways in which this seems very interesting exciting so they might come and do some school for example and then think think about going to do a foundation to apply for the degree so it's it's really something that's kind of in the front of everyone's everyone's minds as as an important thing and certainly within the general conversation in the Department amongst the students that is obviously one of a three the factors one of the dimensions of the conversations along with all of the other ones that you might imagine to be there in terms of race and gender and so on and I think I'd like to ask to what Richard was saying about the C. Students I think one one of the one of the really positive things about the increase in that proportion I guess from maybe twenty five percent when I first started as the as the program leader to run about thirty or so that it is now is that it's much clearer to everybody that's tutors and students that that students not simply coming here to be to have delivered to them as it were the western European and North North American view of what it is to think about to make and to look at heart that actually that cultural makes is an extraordinary ordinary potent one and all of the students who are home students as much as anyone else should become could see it as an opportunity to become much more aware of the different expectations the different dynamics the different ambitions ideas of the students from all over the world who are coming here to study defined than the the students from overseas are in a way bringing with them a completely different Canan and also different attitude to the the environment of London's art scene because I know certainly that I spoke to David Map who's a teacher on the MFA program here and he was telling me the interestingly quite a lot more of the international students particularly interested in that sort of why be AP whereas the British students are in some way more resistant to want to forge a different kind of identity. I wonder if that's something which you're encountering too in a way sort of unexpected trajectories in historical. I still recall references among the different students from different backgrounds. They certainly are different references and I think just uh that's sort of understandable that that's one of the things that has made goldsmiths name for everybody around the world that why be a generation so certainly it's something that a lot of students from say Korea Singapore Taiwan China would know about but I think that that's quite that's quite quickly subsumed within the larger conversations -tations the type place because that that's more really the identification of of this place by a tag in this is where they came from but obviously as soon as they arrive they recognize that are all kinds of possibilities opportunities for themselves to develop that can work doc and that's the much richer conversation and so when they present a work for example in the convenience situation one of the interesting things is to observe and to take part in the conversations within which all of the students is presence not simply talking about the individual work of art. They're looking at but also trying to come to terms with the context and the set of ideas and the structure of thoughts out of which this is arising lastly We're in this moment with a lot of uncertainty about brexit and I'm wondering how that's affecting international response to coming to Britain to study do. Is there any noticeable effect. Do you think there isn't a of a noticeable effect on Noni use students but we do have a strong sense that students from he you outside side the UK are not coming in said numbers that they did the number of applications down. The number of conversions it to students is town this. May I suspect primarily to do with uncertainty about what their status would be after brexit if there's a hard brexit if there's some sort of deal or a new referendum I suspect that will change. We'll have many more. Europeans applying I mean and we are in in like all universities we are cert- profoundly integrated into the EU we you draw many of our best students from there we have strong relationships with the Hook Shula in Hamburg and other organizations in in Europe so and also teachers artists you know and some of our staff live in Brussels or Berlin and so it's it's it's for us. It's been verana settling and I'd like to say that we have a plan. It's just very difficult to plan and we don't know what exactly is going to happen so yes. It's it's quite problematic situation and Michael. Thank you both very much. Thank you think and that's all for this week. You can read all these news online at the art newspaper. Dot Komo on our APP for IOS which you can find at the APP store on the website. You'll find arranged subscription so you can read our content across multiple platforms and de-subscribe for free daily newsletter for all the latest stories go to the newspaper. Dot Com and click on the link at the top right of the page. We also have a new newsletter good market I with COMINGTON analysis every month from market expert be subscribe to this podcast where you newman listen to them and if you enjoy it leaves rating or review on Apple podcasts it helps others others defined us and you can follow us on twitter at ten audio and we're on instagram and facebook across the newspaper podcast is produced by Judy housekeeper. Amy Dawson and David Clark and David is also the editor join us next week for another bumper podcast this time focusing on the frieze art fair with rather special artist interviews see you within the newspaper put cost association abundance which near since seventeen ninety three to find out more dot Com.

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Top of the Pods: the world of Warhol as told by Jeremy Deller and Donna De Salvo

The Art Newspaper Weekly

58:07 min | 1 year ago

Top of the Pods: the world of Warhol as told by Jeremy Deller and Donna De Salvo

"The newspaper put coasties brought to you in association with Bonham's auction is in seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bombs dot com hello and welcome to top the pods another episode in which we back the highlights from the two hundred interviews that we've done over the past two years on the art newspaper podcast this week. We're looking at two conversations about Andy Warhol. The huge warhol retrospective effective from A to B and back again which began at the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York last November is now at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and later travels to the art institute of Chicago across to podcasts last year we looked in detail at the show itself and it will host Legacy Z. of it later you hear from Jeremy Della. The British artist who as a young man spent a few weeks Warhol's let studio the factory in New York but I is an interview from October last year. We've done a desalvo the curator the touring retrospective Donna was to come to our senior editor in New York Nancy Kenny in a catalog essay for the exhibition. You write that you met with Warhol in the eighties. When you were curator the Dea Art Foundation I'd love to hear about those interactions sure well <hes> <hes> you know when I met Warhol in eighty five eighty six? I A little fuzzy myself about the time but I believe it was late eighty five early eighty six it was <hes> during a time when I was taking forward some exhibitions from the museum's collection election and the had this incredible retrospective collection of Warhol's work and so really that's sort of was the framework if you will the context for it all and you know at first he was not very forthcoming. <hes> there was an exhibition of the disaster paintings that organized and he was not really that involved but then I had this idea to do something that really examined his pre silkscreen work work he'd made from sixty to sixty two Enron. I reached out to him. He was very intrigued by the idea quite interested in it and it was at a time when he himself was revisiting hand painting in his collaborations with Basquiat and <hes> Keith haring. I found him a very open been shy interested artists well and course when you're young curator sort of overwhelmed by the mythic status of someone such as Warhol so I was <hes> you know in my own for me. I was a bit take it back about how to approach him but then the conversations became really quite straightforward and very <hes> he was very forthcoming with information. I asked him a lot about the period of time he'd worked in the fifties in particular are interested in that and then you know how it was that he came to make these decisions between the more gesture abstraction and the move toward you know something that really appeared printed the last warhol retrospective organized by American Museum was at the Museum of Modern Art in Nineteen eighty-nine just two years after his death <hes> that's almost three decades ago. What new perspectives have you gained since then sure I mean it's it's sort of amazing easing to imagine that you know it's been that long since a U._S.? Institution took on <hes> a major retrospective of Warhol. I think in many ways that you know there's an entirely new generation many of them were not even on born in nineteen eighty nine and so you know I think that <hes> there's a generation that's been grappling with both rethinking painting what painting can be engagements with abstraction but also I think a fluidity <hes> pity or a comfort zone with looking and working with new technologies media-driven things <hes> digital technologies so that's something that's really struck me immensely in all these years later is to see a new generation for whom warhol makes total sense and it made me see I really felt that Warhol was very ahead of his times and that they're the perception of his work in the sixties of course you know was for the most part he had his detractors tractors and still does but for the most part it was an incredibly radical move to make a silkscreen <hes> to use silkscreen to make a painting but you know in the seventies and eighties Warhol's work wasn't quite as popular and I I think that you know his use of technology photography <hes> ideas about image making and of course in an age of instagram and so many other social media platforms you know Warhol's famous statement you know everyone we'll be famous for fifteen minutes which is probably fifteen seconds <hes> rings incredibly true so on some level. I'm particularly interested in a generation of artists that <hes> came a couple of decades several decades after Warhol and a new audience <hes> of people who will becoming too or halls work in many ways in many instances. I think not necessarily for the first time but to see this level of depth in the work will be for many people a a A. I hope an eye opening experience just the show cast the nineteen sixties as his biggest moment. No it really <hes> you know felt very it was very important to really look through at the trajectory of Warhol's worked to consider his career as a whole and I think there's been so much attention paid to the sixties. Both you know in critic particularly at a critical level <hes> and the later work suffered a bit and it's there are those people and critics and <hes> and Norma scholarship after Warhol died of course when he died in eighty seven and a lot of work also came out that you know would had not been shown in his lifetime really changed perceptions. I think about warhol world's a gay man especially the early worker the fifties where you see an aspect of Warhol that you isn't as evident in the later work but I think that seventies and eighties period <hes> was misunderstood stood. It didn't really look even though the technique had similarities with sixties. The subject matter was completely different. <hes> yes hammer-and-sickle <hes> which you know he was inspired by graffiti going to Italy during the time of the Red Guard but then here's an artist who makes skull paintings or paintings of shadows <hes> this subject matter is quite distinct from the more quote unquote iconic imagery of the sixties so what I've tried to do which I think that you do at any Ortis case is to really show how those ideas have evolved over time and I would say if almost half maybe slightly half the exhibition is also devoted to the work that he made post nineteen sixties well. Let's dive into his early career. In nineteen forty nine more than a decade before the Campbell soup cans or the Mao or the Maryland images were also familiar with warhol started out as an illustrator and commercial advertising and he became quite a successful one. How did that influences later work well? What are the arguments of the exhibition is that that fifties period was foundational for Warhol because to a large extent he was already a talent an an extraordinary draftsman <hes> and I think that in coming to New York and he didn't set out to be a commercial artists he came with his college friend Philip Perlstein and they were roommates together and you know they were wanting to be artists but they had to support themselves warhol very readily God the job at Glamour magazine because he had this great proficiency a drawing <hes>? I think that throughout the fifties what he was able to do was to also see very firsthand the mechanics of visual visual communication how images are put together. How desire is created in a product whether it's a shoe <hes> you know or pharmaceutical and so to be part of that and to see and work with art directors you know many extremely sophisticated and really well trained themselves some in the bow house you know he had a firsthand for front row seat and engagement with that process as what you how you work with an art director how the art director transmits their idea of how it needs to change and also he had this he was immersed in the technology of the period technologies the periods such as photostats machines opaque projectors all the things that you use in to create these images that are fundamentally their final? <hes> you know the final their final <hes> location is in print so he's working in a world in which print and particularly increasingly more photography is the language of popular culture. You write that early in his career. He seems to have run into censorship when he tried to show at art galleries. What were they objecting to well? You know it was hit. Many of his early paintings <hes> were the subject matter you know would was mostly figurative although they did he would use different patterns to obscure the image or he would mimic the brush strokes of you know some I argue one some restaurants at Rhinehart <hes> ornate off Gottlieb <hes> he there's a particular incident that led me to that conclusion and it's really one that was rebounded to me by Philip Perlstein Warhol had made a series as of paintings in round the late fifties that he asks Pearlstine to take to the Tanger- Gallery which was a cooperative gallery. Many of the IBEX painters were involved. The subject was of two boys kissing and of course they took he dutifully took the to the gallery and they laughed so it wasn't I dunno censorship's the right word but it's certainly was not at all in sync with the kind of subject matter at that time <hes> that's not to say there weren't artists this such as Larry rivers in particular who warhol credits as an influence who were playing with that kind of figurative subject matter I also that had this you know kind of coded Campy Coy <hes> aspect to it but it it was not. I'm not what they were GONNA. Show at those galleries back then the art will was dominated by Macho abstract expressionist wasn't it absolutely I mean you know I it's the women the great women of that period from Grace Oregon and and you know Joan Mitchell show. Are you know got there do but much later on in a lot of ways so yes it was a very male male defined although a number of women who were working at that time and you know you have early Johns and Rauschenberg working at that time so you know Warhol's part of a group of artists who <hes> for whom that subject matter would would not have appealed or that Bravura you know <hes> was just out of sync and he's also younger. He's a younger generation so <hes> this is extremely difficult time and <hes> but he keeps you know peas persistent in making his work like any any driven artist well. The show has examples of his early handpainted work. There's the Coca Cola bottle for example which not apparently painted in a drippy abstract expressionist style but he also painted it in a way that resembles a commercially printed image. Now I mean this is really seen as kind of breakthrough moment for him because much of the work that he was making you know and many any other artists by the way we looked in sign <hes> James Rosenquist there were many artists who were still in that late fifties period you know were making we're interested in subject matter but still feeling that they had to in some way tip their hat to abstract expressionism so wore homemade two versions of the painting and one was a giant coke bottle that had drips on it and he invited is a very famous story invited for Friends Irving Plum Ivan Carp M._e._d.. The Antonio and Henry Gonzalez to look at the painting and he wanted to see what they thought about leaving behind the drips essentially and and then what about the other image which really appeared printed and very mechanical and there's very little trace of the orders fan in an all preferred the tighter version but I find it fascinating that you know he he nonetheless needed that you know I've always said now that Warhol's way of asking everyone's opinion would probably be called. Maybe maybe a degree of crowd sourcing today but he was very smart to get you know these are four extraordinary people that he's asking who are very knowledgeable and very much tapped into what was going on in contemporary art at the time so you know he wanted their opinion opinion and thank- thankfully you know one often conjectures what might have happened if they'd said we prefer the drippy version maybe world still would have gone forward with the other will then in sixty two you seem shifting to a mechanical silkscreen screen technique. was that a breakthrough well. I think there's a evolution and that's why I think the fifties is so important because he's already very much engaged with using techniques of reproduction to the constructors images he goes from you know he used carved gum racers then he moves to stencils and so eventually and there's a famous <hes> always often describe with Warhol is very earliest technique was this blog at line where he would blow it on one so he would draw on one side of the piece of paper in Inc blotted with the other analogous to a monotype and it would create this kind of Kirke line that looked very much like Ben Sean who is very popular amongst commercial amongst art directors at the time time but it also allowed him to make copies of it and even had a couple of assistance as early as early fifty so in some ways the move to the silkscreen is seems inevitable. What's differentiates it from that earlier? Your time was the the insertion or the use of the photograph because now you're moving from a something he draws himself and there are some silk screens that were are based on drawings but to use used silkscreen photo silkscreen it to make painting. Is this really when form and content come together so he's using the very technique through which these images are disseminated in the world to make the painting and that's the radical shift. If that's the paradigm well you also have the paintings he made by borrowing from journalistic photography he depicts accidents like car crashes for example in his death and disaster series and then you have the electric chairs and the race riots and the Jacqueline Kennedy and morning. What was the fascination with all that was he obsessed with death? Well you know I think there's often I think we're all obsessed with it one way or another so but so is journalism I mean you know the spectacle of violence violence and you know that's a moment of look magazine life magazine so it's a very different era than we live in today where you have multiple sources multiple <hes> places to go for news but you know I think there is that awareness awareness of you know when we see accidents and I you know I I'll admit to it. You know you're on the road you see the accident. You're compelled to look so I do think that he was tapping into something that had to do with you. Know this compulsion impulsion that we have to look <hes> almost the kind of disbelief to also see something so horrific <hes> at the time he talks about because he was going to do a show in Paris and he says I think I'll call a death in America. So there's a lot of different you know th this is where you know the literature and morals own statements and other people's <hes> recounting of the moment can leave you a little bit you know <hes> your head spinning but he does say something about in around December that you you know this is a time when people will be on the road and it is true that <hes> just prior to any holiday. We do get this something from the radio or T._v.. And we're anticipating you know a number of accidents over the holiday period so I think that he picked up on that and I think there's something more there and that's why I think that's such an extraordinary series because there is something you know you're going from the celebrities of Marilyn Monroe and Elvis Presley and troy donahue money you natalie wood and now you move into people who are non Mus and their their celebrity. If one wants to call it that comes about you know through a tragic accident or in the case of <hes> you know the mustard race stride as he called it you know the civil rights protests in Birmingham so you know it's it's vulnerability of one of also when people are threatened in that way and there's one in particular Colt suicide full and body that depicts the <hes> tragic death of a woman who jumps impera state-building and she is nestled in the top of a car that she falls into and doesn't look dead and it's it's probably the most want I believe one of the most haunting because it's it's a very vulnerable something about the framing <hes> of the image all of course taken by photojournalists. These were newswire photographs. Some of them were never printed because they were too grotesque. Others made it into newspaper and the one I just described of the suicide was <hes> printed twice in life magazine so I think they speak to an America. Also that is one that were violence is a huge part of our history <hes> where he I own interpretation you know are we in some ways punished for consuming. There's one tunafish disaster of two women who <hes> both are tragically <hes> die as a result of poison tuna fish so it's a it's a very eh. Maybe the flip side of you know a certain kind of postwar optimism <hes> and I believe they remain some of his most searing paintings and of course the Electric Chair <hes> which is just <hes> you know a startling image ed to see and of course warhol makes one in the show is a lavender disaster painting so in a sense the absurdity the irony and the horrific nature and maybe even our disregard or are you know the way in which but you can look at an image and is what is it really about when you see this loan electric chair from sing-sing prison and the recognition that this is a means of capital punishment and then it's beautiful by lavender it. It really sets up inevitable incredible contradiction in what you're looking at so. Do you see these works having a political thrust I do I mean I think that that is a subtexts in many of Warhol's works not all some with Disa- dispute that there's a lot of debate especially in the critical community about was warhol political in what he was doing <hes> you could read just about any work of art political way. I think that they are I think that that the but there I think that's evident even in his pictures of soup cans you know I think that there's a certain kind of <hes> confirmation of obsessions desires and at the same time it's putting it in our face so there's a there's a duality and I think that we're all I've always felt he picked up on what I've seen as the twin contradictions of of the American psyche which is the desire for innovation but also for conformity. I understand that the Whitney has a special connection to war films which he started making sixty three right. Yes I'm from sixty three to sixty eight. He made something like six hundred fifty films. It's it's it's mind boggling actually and Izzo number of years ago John Hand hard hard who was in the curator of film and video at the Whitney <hes> started to had conversations with warhol about his films and preserving his films and that really gave birth to the war to the Whitney's catalog resume project <hes> and my <hes> Lake colleague Kelly Angel who is the author of the first catalog resume of the films which just focus on the screen tests worked with Museum of Modern Art who houses the actual films and the Warhol Museum of when it came into existence to really begin the process of looking not only the films you know that were shown but in numbers numbers of reels of material that had never been seen and they have dutifully gone through the bulk of it and looked at it and noted the language in it who was in it <hes> and this is an incredible piece of scholarship because unlike looking at a painting which you know one devotes a certain degree of time but you know with time wine-based media one can only imagine given the personalities we meet in the film's D._C.. The films as the kind of portraiture I do. I think that that you know if you think of the screen tests alone. <hes> you know they are portrait's but their portraits that allow for something else because they're filmed and because of the element of time world's interested in port interest in portrait of Poetry of course is evident through the fifties where he has sketching a lot of men. He's catching other people. He's a great social observer and so the films of course allow for both a much more psychological penetration of the subject <hes> by having them sit very still in in front of a stationary Tama but also to pursue you know many ideas about <hes> how far you could push film how harsh you could push the medium itself. You know whether with Warhol he running them at a faster speed allowing in some things the strobe caught different things that when the film can't when you run out of tape is evident that most people edit out and he's part of that you know avant-garde Film Community Jonas meekest since Stan Vanderbeek. I mean a lot of other filmmakers who are experimenting in this way. I think it's the the the just the sheer number of films that were hall made that is you know really mind boggling and just again evidence of his veracious <music> appetite <hes> as visual artist <hes> to play out ideas in the seventies then we see him doing commission portrait's <hes> for jet-set Society socialites and movie people and industrialists they did Warhol need those commissions financially or was probably a way of staying in the limelight probably a bit of both but I think he I think he you know in a sense he sort of was playing with the very convention of how that kind of poetry has existed. I it whether you know it was in the era of Velazquez and you know the an artist is commissioned to do a royal portrait or you know up to John Singer Sargent or Robert Henry you know those artists were equally working in a similar way and often times they were sought out by celebrities social socialites. I don't know celebrities of is a more twentieth century term but you know certainly wealthy individuals socialites philanthropists so I think that for Warhol Oh you know want us to remember that a lot of the work that he made in the seventies in the eighties was not commercially successful so he was supporting the enterprise there <hes> through those portrait commissions and they start out even in the sixties is the N._F._l.. Skull portrait that's in the exhibition. There's an incredible portrait of a <hes> Insurance Executive in the Midwest that'll be in the show and he's interested in portraiture throughout the idea. Then of the commission portrait really just takes over and you know people. I think it's like with any you know any well-known artists to have your portrait painted by a certain well-known figure is I it conveys its own sort of status symbol and they range because some of them for more endearing. There's a great portrait of his mother. Julia of his of his early dealers Ileana Sauna Bend <hes> artists that he <hes> trade at work for and then you know right up through Dolly Parton and <hes> the Shaw Iran and his wife and her sister and I do think there's a qualitative difference between the portraits where he <hes> my argument is you can see a bit of difference between the portrait's where he knew someone where there was an actual connection and those were are. He's just brilliant at having figured out a system that allowed him to make them very quickly <hes> and get paid for them and sometimes people didn't want them. They probably regretted that years later that grid of portrait's on the <hes> lobby walls it has kind of an instagram affect doesn't it well. I think it's an early facebook you know because if you think about it this desire that you know we have to feel recognized to feel like <hes> <hes> is very much a part of our culture and <hes> I've seen this as a as as somewhat of a facebook of it's era obviously it's not comprehensive but one of my colleagues <hes> Mark Lakensha who's done a lot of work mapping the portraits and really who how they came about who you know who was the contact. Sometimes it was warhol. Sometimes it was a dealer. Sometimes it was a friend you know you see this incredible network of how these individuals or even linked back to Warhol so in some way Warhol's always at the center of it all <hes> but it is in in many ways. It's it's a facebook. It's <hes> it's about being liked. It's about how you can have agency to make yourself into a star now. We can do that in a way that I don't think it would have been UNIM- unimaginable actually was not possible in Warhol's era. I mean now you can create your own. You know you can become famous for just putting your images on spend on instagram. It's it's it's a there's a good in a bad of of that desire to feel that the only way that you exist is to be <hes> liked in the concept of that like or dislike is like or that you you know absolutely desire need to record every aspect of your life and I wore whole was doing that and he prefigures innocence what has happened in our culture in the nineteen as then. You see some art historical appropriations don't you. I mean like the last supper paintings yes. He just goes through a period of time where he he looks at Deke Rko. I'd Vard monk the scream he goes through sort of the renaissance. He's interested in renaissance paintings. I think one of the most <hes> complex topics he takes on his Leonardo's last supper and he was doing them in his studio and his one of his old time dealers Alexandria list came to the studio saw Oh them and had this idea that we're would present these paintings very near to the Leonardo's original and we have an extraordinary painting in the show that combines camouflage with the last supper image and you know the the two I think it's a it's a very alluring very mysterious painting. <hes> functions on many many different levels of course the you know became known after his death that he was Catholic and very devout Catholic <hes> but to quote also Leonardo painting which already done with his Mona Lisa painting in nineteen sixty three you know this is were warhol looks at also a painting that itself entered into popular culture so you know he works from really cheap marquette's or you know little plaster images of the Last Supper or there are some prince that he uses so this is a work of art like the Mona Lisa <hes> that you know crossover. Let's say from the walls of the Louvre an into just the the world of pop culture commercial culture and so his choices. I think that's the most successful of them. He did do other works of art by other artists but I think this is the one that we're he's able. Able to do something with the image connects with it and the ones we had the one we have also conflicts camouflage with it as well with the Last Supper yes <hes> it came as a surprise to me to read that he was actually observant Catholic. Did he go to mass apparently apparently and apparently he was you know served soup. It went to a soup kitchen. <hes> of course he grows up in a Byzantine Catholic family in Pittsburgh and so that is his background but it you know it was not something I was aware of off and not something I focused on but again I think this is information that what became if not more available people focused on it more posthumously so you know his memorial service which I did go to is at Saint Patrick's cathedral and you know it was a star-studded a group there <hes> and the statement was made by John Richardson in his eulogy you know talking about Warhol and Church that he would go and serve soup at and you know you sort sort of really is a close to him with no this. I wasn't an intimate but <hes> but I think it just reveals. Also you know him as a human being and it's so difficult because Warhol created this myth around himself that in in many ways I think obscured his work as an artist and also his you know love of the commercial love of money many of these things I think prevented people from in some way seeing the real talent in his work burke <hes> and you know we we have difficulty in some ways. We expect artists to have to live a certain kind of life for to be a certain kind of way I think that's so much less the case in the last few decades but his I think Catholicism to me is also very important in terms of his understanding of the icon so you know <hes> growing up in a religion where icons were gold is used in such way such a way you know he he was very very aware of the of how the power of the image you know both in terms of confirming belief but also almost as a kind of tool of propaganda you will so the the idea of believing in what you're seeing what is it that you believe when you see when you look at an image and particularly if it's a something that exists in the world and it's a brand you know all of those things play into it and I I really believe fundamentally that what Warhol's whole project comes to and the shadows and particularly make clear is the illusion that we're looking at something that is an illusion and it are mine wants to believe. It's the real thing whether it's the coke bottle or you know even even the Leonardo painting at the time the Leonardo <hes> Last Supper there was tremendous debate about <hes> restoring it because what we're looking at of course is not as it had appeared when Davinci made it was has done a fresco it had peeled from the wall there were debate. Should it be left as it is and Warhol even says he preferred it in his in its deteriorated state so this whole idea of what a work of art is but also beyond Yawn because I think because he has he moves over he's able to somehow bring together the world of popular culture in the world of art history in the world of art that somehow it's not just the we're looking at a a painting but we're looking at a painting about something and object a brand. That's trying to get us to believe something to buy it so it's very complicated enterprise within it now. We're whole obviously long long to be a legend. Didn't he <hes> time after time he reproduced his own image itself portrait's but they're still something a little mysterious about him a kind of self concealment <hes> through your work on the show have you do you feel that you've gotten to understand no him and well. I could never say that I know him in that sense but I think that you know you see as an individual. I think that many there was a sort of hidden part to how he lived his life. Clearly we're just talking about his Catholicism. You know and other things that were not commonly known so there was a distance you know whether it was being an insider in an outsider because I think he was that to a certain certain extent <hes> you know it's like a way you're on the street and off the street <hes> but I also think that you know there was an air of mystery that he purposely created around himself. You know he begins using his own self portraits year round sixty eighty four and makes himself subject but of course the self portrait is not a new idea in the history of art <hes> but eventually also he does become a brand and in the eighties he appears in T._v.. Commercials the appears in print commercials for various projects. It products mostly outside of the U._S.. Does one for Japanese commercial for Japanese television <hes> so it's the level of product endorsement in the days the old days where Joan Crawford Sold pepsi-cola Cola so that's not a new thing we still have you know <hes> Matthew mcconaughey I think's Ellen cars and so it's not a kind of you know new idea but you know the the issue of you know the late self-portrait what's that he makes which of course with the fright wig where you know. There's a mysterious figure there and I think most really good artists often say little about themselves so I I think for all that Warhol All said in the diaries all of you know he's out there more than any other artists I can imagine to some extent. <hes> you know Oscar Wilde certainly with someone who put out a lot of information about himself so he's a little bit in that you know in that vein but you never know everything and I think that's the same thing with his works of art that when it comes down to it they remain mysterious as any great work of Art <hes> I think does I've always believed that this test of a great work of art is that no matter how do you how many times you go back to it. You can't completely figure it out and I think that's the case with Warhol. Well apparently met Donald Trump in me several times and he writes about trump and trump's first wife Ivana <hes> in his diaries. I also see that trump is quoted warhol and a couple of his books. How do you think your show connects with this Trumpian moment? Were in well it absolutely you know Warhol did have exchanges with Donald Trump of course they were both on the scene in New York and <hes> <hes> trump had asked him to make a painting of one of his buildings trump tower and warhol did it and then trump rejected it because he said that the color Combo didn't he didn't like the Color Combo and I think we're warhol quotes in his diaries the Irish that he thought Donald Trump was really cheap so you know I think it's a great question because I do think that because Warhol's work is so identified with the United States and because the subject matter is absolutely recently drawn from for the most part the U._S. that it's an interesting moment to look at what is being projected in that work and that optimism of the sixties in the postwar era and a very different kind of America in America on the on the you know as the savior of the world. <hes> you know the Marshall Plan. I mean we're in a very different place then than we are now so I think it's very interesting to look at that and to compare these two times. Sometimes when we're in an extremely different different situation <hes> both domestically and globally I think the other thing is to you know think about <hes> the way warhol creates these fictions is through his films of the sixties and the you know the inevitable rise culturally and this is not something I would say was something Warhol can be. You know said he did that he in that he created but but you know we live in an age of celebrity culture of Reality T._v. and so it's quite interesting to think of that you know cinema verite that started to happen in a lot of Warhol's films where you see it as you see it. There's no script it's acting out <hes> and then there was famous program the loud family I think in nineteen seventy where they track the family California family with cameras in the home and you know all manner of things divorces son coming out gay they all come out before our camera and on camera and you know it's not you know go from that to our reality T._v.. Obsessed culture which has been the case now for at least ten years or so <hes> is is <hes> you know it's a very frightening idea idea because it starts to raise this question of what is true. What are we looking at what can be manufactured and so you know? I think it's a very interesting moment to look at Warhol in particular because you know when you plan an exhibition you never know Oh what the world is going to be and I think many of us didn't expect we would be where we are now so I'm very interested to see there may be some who see Warhol as the cause of audit people who've said that to me. I don't think anyone artists could claim such power in the world but I think that he like most artists anticipate something and has that on ten. I and I do think that there's something within Warhol's work which has a dark side <hes> and I and also <hes> you know says something about aspects of the United States are love capitalism our love of consumerism <hes> you know we'll we are as a society of consumers were in a very sad place so and and you can be consuming. All kinds of things doesn't have to be products it can also be you know <hes> information. That's fed to us so it's it's a very potent time. I think to raise many of these issues and I I hope that some of this you know comes into the conversation station in terms of the exhibition. You want work. I believe the work remains <hes> extremely relevant and now we'll test out what that relevance really means. Thank you for joining US Donna my pleasure thank you now. In Nineteen ninety-six the year before hall died. He had an exhibition the Anthony d'affaires Gallery in London a twenty year old student of the cool towed Institute of London met him the private view and was later invited by Warhol will halt to New York to visit the factory. That student was Jeremy Della the British artist he's continued to reflect some of the key elements of Warhol's work in his own practice indeed in two thousand fourteen della expert the connections between Warhol and another of his Heroes William Morris an an exhibition at Modena Oxford Della came to a studio at so radio in London in November last year to talk to me about meeting Whoa Ho and about his enduring significance Jeremy if we could begin with your first experiences of Andy Warhol how we whistle teenager looking at work somewhere it would definitely been probably through the Maryland through maybe seeing that tate yeah as it was then and <hes> just being aware of him through the velvet underground photographs of him just threw him being dominant character really and <hes> hearing stories about him and being retrieved by dressed as a bit the Gulf so as of sixteen year old so he adequate goth look at the head wasn't black obviously but just the whole look joint black but he you know he did wear black but he was just a very appealing character we use of re I certainly my first experiences of warhorse of reading about him by musical artists talking about him in music magazines and stuff like that. Do you sort of art conscious as a young man. I was conscious in that respect yes and so I did I knew about him. I I think it's probably really photographs of him which were more intriguing him Italy's funny looking people and doing stuff and looking very blank and with the wig and in these situations and sewn so I think he's very appealing. Heating vessel dressing up aspect of him was very painting and also his identity creating this identity for himself. If you're not lesson you quite interested in that aspect of people when they do that and the five he looked like he was having a really good time though you'd never didn't really small that much but it just like he was misbehaving in public when he was out everything he did was form of rebellion ready and his whole life was was essentially the rebellion against humanity and I think that fat I think is something that we have really that's a really important part of him ready and so when you were studying history at the cool told we you already very contemporary art focused Acoust- that stage no I wasn't I mean I has the court old was not contemporary art absolutely was the APP so upset so as an interest I had anyway right so of aware contemporary the wherever characters like Goodwin Jordan Warhol and you know these big people men mainly and they were intriguing characters and in a way Goodwin George took a lot from Mojo I would argue attempts to that sinus famous not exactly robotic ticked me this blank demeanor and just watching and so on and will so just work looked will hold in I would argue with the colors and the techniques so yes I was interested in artists the two characters as well and so you went to the Anthony d'affaires exhibition in one thousand nine hundred six and actually met Warhol there while he saw he was doing sign. He'll signing things that have on rushed to the table and go thing signed and I did few things signed and then afterwards one of his entourage said Oh come come comp- though tell on Thursday night selena cheese day and just hang out concoct replaced it with oil a will do that. Actually I'm I'm. I'm just going to go and do that. took a friendly me and we had this funny couple of hours with Whoa Ho and his own sororities people sitting around. Can you set the scene. That's in the Ritz Right. It's in the Ritz. It's a we dressed up a little bit. Mike Chris in suits and of funny hats took bag of props with us like hat's a weeks and all sorts of things we didn't know what to expect both a bit nervous and we went to the sweet the ritzy hat and we coq ten and they'll just a bunch of middle aged men sitting around watching Benny Hill with a sound turn down and Roxy Music Great tits type playing in Ghetto blaster which if you think about is pretty good so of installation and it's I'm right and there he was with these men who look a bit board really strange and just sitting around waiting to happen when we were what was with the entertainment vice me we went Emma chatting pitcher tight can so capone funny. He's funny hats and just mucks about relief street as mocked about and then there's a funny fighter. You're actually view with wore her and you've got a New York Yankees based Black New York. There's another one that's another smother photographs vessels missiles or like puzzle blogs like on around each like wearing funny clothes and it was quite innocent really and <hes> thankfully and so we just then he said Oh come out to the factory. I'm doing a T._v.. Show just come out and whatever I mean just again. I just thought well. I'M GONNA turn down. I will regret this not doing this happens. I'M GONNA regret not doing it so we went out that some of and spent two weeks hanging around the factory working on this M._t._v. show he he's doing being filmed for just really hanging around so we saw him the and he would just wonder around the factory. That's how I seemed when he was actually working very hard I think but he was he was just wondering about in these paints spattered black jeans gains in black powder neck Chang to people in one. Oh we can't just of the sort of myth of factory or the all the stories about the factory that the factory as an idea and people in it is just how as a teenager you wanna live your life basically in this room always funny people and rock and roll as glamorous women and whatnot and it just seemed like that how you won't live to be it just looked amazing and so the factory wasn't like that in one thousand eight six but it's still super exciting to be there. Can you describe some of the spaces because it was it was by that stays there was sort of multiple rooms big big how <hes> big office building basically a nice building but it was it was an office building about four flaws the roof roof you'd walk through the factory and you'd get you into another building which was interview so those that as well. which is the magazine Yes juice so you know he had his magazine? They had film production. He had his office this yet his office <hes> which was full of boxes and books and magazines which wasn't even a chair in his full. You know he had no he. Didn't you know his office unusable basically but it was it was office of a relaxed ext office environment. I would say that makes sense some stuffed animals around pretty pollens on the desk but you know you were that you you in. That place is very exciting. D Did that mark that moment when he he made that shift from you'll studying history and you make that shift into thinking there's a possibility of being an artist. The possibility is a good word because it's just showed what was possible war what was actually possible in the world as an artist. You basically did whatever you wanted. Unheated Savory wanted that's why they seemed like it. Complete freedom it wasn't actually the case need the diaries and find out about what was going on at that time his quite frustrated but's. It's just like he could do he wounded and <hes> yes dismayed the world of Baroque altarpieces much I love them just not particularly become really compete with that with with contemporary life and so I think about to college finish my degree. Nobody knew what to do with the experience of being the really didn't know what it took some time to process in a way but I just knew I'd been ruined by <hes> in terms of an history my life in history had just been destroyed by going to see him and one of the striking connections I think between your work and Andy Warhol's life work is is this connection with with music and particularly comportment Warhol's famous cavs for the velvet underground. Yes and rolling is known sticky fingered etc so yes yes but also just that sort of spiritual connection between art and music and it seems to me that's right of the hard what you do yes yes it. Is that existed before. Really you know the the music connection to music and pop music was about four or five so that was what he but then seeing an artist was seemed to be part that was well was interested in it was quite influential so you always happy to know that and but Yes for music and all thing for me was always huge. Huge instill is I mean maybe less so now so lost touch with pop music but I still have opinions but but yes that. was you know that not having any boundaries. I think it was the interesting thing with him. Film magazine Music Arts a performance in a way you know his life was performance as for me as is a great influence in that respect and the spicer say the fact that he so to corralled people together into interesting situations and you think about the films <hes> very many of them warhawks setting up a situation and seeing what happens in and you see that to a certain degree in your work as well yes little bit. I mean a very different situation yet but he is yes. He was of wire. He's clearly was of wire of people. He wasn't really you take part in things and I had a little bit about me as well very good at taking part and things. I like the papers to take part in. It's a bit of a contradiction in a way that's yes I def- vest uh-huh is definitely a a connection respect. All obviously was an artist who had a very object based practice as well as the sort of more federal Bouma tive in film based works and stuff like that am I don't think of you as somebody who PAJIC's objects. I'm not done so that's a huge difference. I mean his his in ways where it was quite a lot is quite traditional was painting was net and <hes> and I think no. We don't have that much Komen really in. I mean I wouldn't compare myself anyway but I just think yes. I mean the way he's responsible for law problems in the cards. I think you know this concentration money the love of money and the way people work and talk about us I mean he he is one of the fest people to talk in those times about <hes> and and the ways prices have just been inflated as well. I mean that's nothing doesn't know his problem and the idea of office wants to be famous and all that kind of stuff about unleashed many Damon's in the art world he's second right artists who think they can be like him. Yes he he. He did open a can of worms and then as left us of workout to do that kind of worms dot o._R._G.. I agree with that and I think one of the things about Warhol was that he's he's understanding of those mechanisms and the this sort of infrastructures of those sort of power all structures if you like we was much more sophisticated than he's often given credit for absolutely I mean he saw if a whole of America from top to bottom you know he loved hanging out with rich people but he despised them as well and <hes> if you when you see doesn't have much good to say about the mm-hmm when you read the diaries and he thought he was I think he was very aware of social issues and famously. I still enough it's true and all he did do the soup kitchen thing on Friday evenings toward and I just done if that's true or yeah well don't have to salvo the curator. The Whitney suggested it is true if that's the case and he was going to the top on the bottom of America so he's very wear hats and he came from a very poor background. That's why I might an exhibition about William Morrison Warhol a few years ago and they both of them Morris to in Morris had clients who with some of the richest people in the world but also he would travel round Britain giving lectures and talks and an meeting people who are some of the poorest people in the country and they both with super super aware of that and we're Kinda quite angry buyers well Morris sent Morris Insane and I think it probably did that with wool hose where he probably quite angry by these wealthy people just thought not worthy of it of as riches. It seems to me that that show was was really trying to complicate Warhol as a as both an artist and public figure in a way that you you've expressed just now so contradictory three about him in some ways but but I think we'll in a way as he especially in sort of social media driven world has become a kind of caricature of what wo- actually was deepen the mysterious death is the thing that it was a lot more. Here's a very political artist. You could argue. I mean everyone just thinks just like money and what is interesting and it was surface and here's when you superficial but actually he was he was really deeply. His very profound artists documenting the American empire and you know the the his the postwar empire was America and he he was he was there artist and if you think about what what was America like in the sixties and seventies who Andy Warhol's work he don't read a book those images almost so I think he was absolutely a chronicler and it was a prophet as well like Morris. They're both prophets for the future of both looked into the future and saw what it was going to be like <hes> we'll hope basically predicted the Internet Denison some respects in terms of his interest in the way he was veracious collector and wanting to be everywhere over time me everyone be documented meeting. Everyone is kind of collecting habits is his wanting adding to document his life to record everything <hes> I still maintain that if he was alive during the Internet he would have been one of the major players with an Internet because all his obsessions or the obsessions of the Internet meeting people <hes> so social networks and then buying and selling things gossip photographing yourself always things he was doing this twenty years before Internet but he was the first Internet artists really but what's weird now is because the foundation foundation you cannot photograph is working exhibitions and his work doesn't exist on the Internet as you might think it would so which is a huge irony Richard sent him nuts. I'm sure not 'cause he wanted his work to be everywhere unavailable to everyone like Morris and so he sent him nuts thinking his work was actually not very well. Represented on the Internet just wouldn't be understand that invented for him. I exactly I mean another thing that interesting. Can you talk about being a goth but I think there is an attractiveness for lots of people in the sort of darkness of Warhol and it sort of an again this is to Warhol underplayed to a certain degree even the flower paintings which I thought you really interesting thing in that last dream of your <hes> show with a love is enough with with William Morris Mojo together was that you brought the flower paint flower paintings flowers papers together but even the flower paintings boy will run trains says there is much about life and death is Marilyn as and and and the and the death and disaster series transient the Pena's whatever they were then you go into camouflage as well off to that which of course is warfare but yes I think everything for him. I think he was very mortality and yes this is the darkness is what's appealing about him really isn't it. I think any Maryland that's someone who just recently died and then he started making the list portrait's because she was very sick and he police she's GonNa die so and do some list. cynic went away then the Kennedys <hes> work with portfolio made about the Kennedys and so on and really works now that had the greatest monetary value of death and disasters in the car on crushes and <hes> race riots and so that's what we really remember him for in the sixties least and no one made a motoric comment about that situation and heated ready by the race riot pictures and so I think the darkness with him was was clearly always there and his awkwardness and so on that that appeals to me of course pistole teenagers as well like I said I think you get into in very early. Leonie sustainable you to think so much. We're talking to thank you and he will help from eight to be back. Again is at the San Francisco Museum of modern well not until the second of September and then travels to the Art Institute of Chicago where it opens on the twentieth of October the excellent Cassini beautiful catalog that accompanies the show published by the Whitney and Yale University press is seventy dollars. You can keep up to date Ooh the latest Art World News at the newspaper Dot Com or on our APP for I._O._S.. which confined at the APP store on the website you'll find a range of subscriptions so that you can read our content seamlessly across multiple platforms? Meanwhile please go to free daily newsletter but all the latest stories Goto the newspaper Comb and Click the newsletter link at the top right of the page do subscribe to this podcast wherever you normally listen to them and please leaves a rating or review on Apple podcasts and follow us on twitter at ten Odia Russo on instagram.

Philip Perlstein Warhol warhol Andy Warhol warhol world Warhol Museum New York William Morrison Warhol America Museum of Modern Art Goodwin Jordan Warhol Whitney Museum of American Art Italy Donald Trump Donna San Francisco Museum of Modern Maryland New York Dea Art Foundation art institute of Chicago the art newspaper
How Auction Guarantees Are Changing The World Of Art

Odd Lots

30:24 min | 1 year ago

How Auction Guarantees Are Changing The World Of Art

"The Bloomberg business of sports podcast. How did the Yankees become this mega valuable where the money as flowing inside sports around the globe, from the marketing perspective, where the dollar sped from union heads team owner scuffed hush, Nick, and Michael Barr, speak to the names that power this multibillion dollar industry off the Red Sox? CEO Sam Kennedy National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman, Bloomberg business of sports. Listen today on Bloomberg dot com, the Bloomberg business app or subscribe on apple podcasts. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the odd lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal, and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy. Did you know we just had something in New York, that's apparently called Giga week? See, now, I don't know how to answer this question, because we are sort of talking about it a few minutes before we started recording. I'm aware that there is a big, big art auction. I was unaware that it's actually called Giga week. Yeah. I didn't realize that either, like I guess, every once in awhile auctions, a big weeks of art auctions, or kind of like mardi gras New Orleans, or something they suddenly just pop up and your feed just gets dominated by people who are at this event, you're like, oh, yeah, this is happening again. So obviously in New York recently, we just had a series of gigantic art auctions, and apparently because of how much money the art sells for during the course of the week, they called Giga week because over a billion dollars of arc. Get sold. Okay. So lots of money flowing through those auctions, and there was one point of interest in particular, because I remember you actually tweeting about it. But the father of Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, he bought a pretty large. How do I describe it? A sculpture that resembles like a balloon bunny. Yeah. And I don't even think it was the at large, although we can get into it. But yeah. So a balloon bunny sold for a ton of money. I forget how much it sold for a crazy amount. And the guy who bought it at the auction, although I guess you just a dealer. So he bought on behalf of someone else was the Treasury Secretary is dead. But it was sort of like this perfect zeitgeist of the moment thing, an insane amount of money for a sculpture of the treasury secretaries, dad. So it seems like a good time to talk about the art world and the financial is Asian of the art world and where it's all going and what it says about the state of the economy, I feel so cultured. This will be the. Most cultured episode of odd. Lots there's probably true. Because I don't think we've talked about this before. So without further ado, I want to bring in our guest, and who's actually from a tweet by our guest, that I the first time I saw the whole thing about Mnuchin dad and making the big purchase. So Margaret Kerrigan. She's the deputy art market editor at the art newspaper is from her tweet that saw about the Akhunzada bunnies sale. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. So what was that, like being in the room when the Kuhn's bunny sold? And how much was it and sort of tell us what that was all about? Well being in the room, I have to say was pretty much business as usual. This has become very Deridder to be selling art for that much money. Now, of course, I say that rather flippantly because I have to cover these all the all the time, but, you know, it round up sewing for just over ninety million, and that's, that's nothing Tino, look, down your nose at the Kuhn's bunny, work was actually really interesting because it sold for eighty million dollars and with fees that came out to about ninety one million, it was sold without a guarantee, now, that's kind of like a big deal for peace has that much worth behind it more and more. Frequently we're seeing the use of third party guarantees by auction houses to basically offset the risk of selling these high value works of art, and this one, they were just kind of let fly by the seat of its pants as he how did before we get into the question of guarantees, and how all that works. I just wanna talk about the plenty a little bit more. I would I saw that it was. Old for ninety one billion dollars. I assumed it was one of these gigantic sculptures. That's as big as an entire room, or you need to add a wing to your house, but it's not really that big right now. It's only about three and a half feet, this crazy, if it's appropriate. I'd love to give people a visual of this money is looks like a balloon animal, and this is kind of something that the artist Jeff Koons is famous for one of his most iconic works. It was one of only four ever made. So in that way there because there's a limited amount of the bunny. Sculptures out there. It had a lot of cachet, but yet when you look at it, it looks like a silver toy. So let's get back to the guarantees. Can you walk us through what those are exactly an e-e-e-e-no you mentioned that it was unusual that the Kuhn's bunny, rabbit, didn't come with a guarantee given a the price tag attached to it how, how much of the art market currently does come with a guarantee, well within the last Giga week earlier in may about forty percent of all lots were guaranteed, and that could be either by an in-house guarantee or third party guarantee, just the back it up a little bit in their simplest form. A guarantee, is like it's just an agreement between a seller who wants to confine their work with an auction house, and the auction house that no matter what the outcome of the sale that seller is going to get their money's worth though. The terms and the conditions of these agreements can really vary. They're always very secretive. So we don't really know that what goes into outlining all of these bare bones guarantees, but whatever terms the auction house decides to. To offer is a big incentive for that seller to consign with them, though. It's definitely within the best interest of the auction house to minimize the risk for the consigners much as possible, if they're trying to get these like high value trophy works of art, like a coons rabbit sculpture, because they think that'll help push it forward on the auction block. She'll just break this down a little bit further. Let's say, I have a coons blunt, in my collection or some other piece of art that I want to sell and I know it's going to be a big hit and multiple, how many like big auction houses are there in the US, there's three predominant ones the prestigious other bees and Phillips? And so would feary what they say is list with us or sell it through us and will provide you some guaranteed minimum zip. Right exactly it, where does that come from? Then there's a third party entity that promises to do the bidding explain how that all works in the traditional just guarantee model with, like the in-house guarantee. And I feel like this is important to set about. Why third-party guarantees are kind of on the rise right now? Basically, the auction houses started doing this a lot to attract these bigger collections and these bigger works of art, and it can play out in one of three ways in one way, the, the lot fails to sell, and in that case, it's called bought in by the auction house. So the auction house than owns that work of our Impey's, the consigners, whatever their, you know, lowest bid was, and then the problem with that is when an when a work is bought in it's called, what's burnt, and people like act like it was no good for the art. And so it actually lowers the value of that work of art. Now, if it actually goes for its, guaranteed price than everybody wins, you know, the seller gets the money they were hoping to get for the work. The auction house gets a little off the top. It's all good. And then best case scenario is going to sell more than it's guaranteed price and then the auction house nets that prophet and everyone's a little bit happier. A little bit. 'cause now that's where the third party guarantee, really? Gets going because they realize that they can bring in the, the auction houses realize that they can bring in another person to offset the risk for them. And that person gets paid out and makes a little money off the top. And so does the auction house. That's really where it's at right now with the third party guaranteed, we've seen the rise of them over the last couple of years exponentially. And these are also known as ever vocal bids and what that means is basically that third party. Guarantor is saying, I put a bit on this work, no matter what for this amount that amount is secret. No one knows what that is. And that's just negotiated between the auction house and the consigners and the third party guarantor before the auction happens. It's probably near the low estimate for the work. So that's what the usual benchmark, but it could be more could be less it. So it means that, when that when that third party, guarantor comes in with that work. It's basically establishing a market value for that work, right? That in there. That no one else knows about. That's really interesting that it's done sort of off of the public market. I guess so walk us through who these third party guarantors are just to be clear if, if the art doesn't sell for more than the minimum guaranteed price. Do they take delivery of that art? Yeah. That's the thing for the most part. These guarantors used to be dealers or collectors, that had the capital or the expertise to kind of be like, yes, I will front this money for this piece. Now that is not necessarily the case anymore. We're seeing a lot more people wanting to get in on this because they've heard that they're good returns on these overseeing influx of people that are just interested in getting the work, but they will take possession of the work if it doesn't sell to somebody to a higher bidder. Let's about those returns that they expect, and let's just sort of go through the math. So let's say that there is. A piece, and maybe at the high end they think it could fetch twenty million dollars. I'm just talking hypothetically in maybe the ranges tend to twenty and I'm one of these third party guarantors, and I say, okay, I'm going to guarantee that L bid ten million dollars on it. And then let's say it's a blockbuster auction it goes to twenty million dollars and I don't have to. I don't lose any money. I didn't buy the peace. What do I get paid for having offered that ten million dollar guarantee? Well, the math is where it gets tricky the easiest way to look at that is that if you guarantee that work for ten million dollars. Yeah. And it went for twenty then you are getting a share of that extra ten million that it went for high see, but that breakdown is not necessarily clear that's something that's negotiated between the guarantor and the auction house. But that payout is based somewhere on the spread between what I had offered as my guarantee, and the ultimate price. But in theory that could be very fast. Huge return for me. A if it turns out that the final price is much higher than what I had paid. Yes, absolutely. And in fact, we're seeing guarantees being made up until, like ten minutes before an oxygen starts now. Just very new. It used to be these were secured more in advance and they would be no tainted in the catalogs that you would pick up at the beginning of an auction and that are distributed the week before the auction now. However, there is usually like a running tally that the auction will give off and the beginning thumb are marked in the catalog, but some are made literally as they're walking up to the podium. If the auction houses are incentivized to offer minimum guarantees in order to get, you know, interesting are consigned to them from perspective sellers. And if the third party Garin tours are sort of incentivized to provide a floor of, of some sort, is, is that dynamic is that one of the reasons why art prices seem to be getting higher and higher. At least for certain pieces doesn't add up. Awards pressure on the price of art. So this is such an interesting question, and it really gets to the, the heart of the art market in general, and why it's associated and weird so far there has not been a huge correlation between the use of third party guarantees, and the upward prices of art in general, that seems to just being dueled by general, you know wealth in the world today, that's driving those prices forward. But this a lot of these studies that have been done about the correlation between third party guarantees, and the price of a work of art aim out several years ago. And this has changed just within that time to backtrack. Just a little bit the use of these irrevokable, but bids became increasingly popular after to the two thousand eight financial crisis when a the major auction houses had to pay out some big sums to consigners for works of that they had guaranteed house when those failed to sell, and I think between Christie's and Sotheby's like two hundred million was paid out for these consigners guaranteed work with them. They couldn't sell it. So, that's when we really started to see people bringing in the third party guarantees. And again, those were significant usually significant collectors like nods Mugabe families like those people were the ones fronting the money for these things, also big name dealers like a golden pace Azman. They'd come in and also front, the money for it because they'd be looking to you know, kind of back their own artists markets. So this third party model actually started to increase the liquidity of the art market, which is the new Tory as problem because it started tempting people to buy and sell work when they didn't necessarily need to by offering the promise of some kind of return on it, and it started to morph into the speculative tool, then, and now they're just a lot more people that are wanting to get into this. And then I think according to a recent report that was published in the Wall Street Journal before the recession. There was a, a handful of people doing third pretty guarantees and they, you know re fifty percent of the. Coverage and half the buyer's premium exchange verse staking, these works and today guarantors say that they're expanding ranks have already started wittling the returns on this and they're only getting about fifteen to thirty percent of that over it. So it's kind of an interesting dynamic where there's not a lot of like punk rock numbers. The backup. Why does this financially feasible for some people? So it's interesting thinking about these kinds of returns, and you mentioned that a lot of the third party guarantors were these famous collectors of our. They had lots of them. But essentially, you could I mean is it getting to the point where people are who have zero interest in art, or the art world are backing funds that just do nothing? But, you know, you have one guys like I'm really good at pricing guarantees back may give me you know, I'll raise one hundred million, and we'll do all these and you don't have to care about art at all, but some money for you. There has been a huge boom in like a boutique industry of businesses that are actually tailored to backing guarantees essentially, I mean they do other work as well. And that's it's kind of a big function of what is called art secured lending at this point, where people are leveraging Pacific works of are already in their collection, or the entire collections, get money upfront to guarantee other works. So it was kind of like. Loop here and then but beyond that, we've seen a lot of guarantees at Sotheby's, and Christie's, mainly, but also Phillips, and I think last year, about one point three billion combined was guaranteed in sales across those auction houses all year long, that's according to a port by arc tactic, which is a auction tracking firm and all of these accounted for about fifty eight percent of the value of the houses evening sales of postwar and contemporary, which is like the big moneymaker sales that you see all the headlines about that's up thirty nine percent from recently, I think two thousand sixteen and what's really interesting about that is that a lot of these art financing companies are offering loans to investors. They expect will guarantee works. There's one called Athena, that publishes lists of auction offerings that will look like safe bets going into the major auction rounds. Other companies also offer these arc back loans to guarantees that are, you know, just so that they can buy out the work that they stake ended up. Nope. Not selling that they thought would, and then like I said, last minute guarantees are kind of feeling as well, because there's a sense that, like you, the, the market's shifting at any given time, there's a new firm called Pike's. I started within the last couple of years. They are trying to turn the guarantee into sort of like derivative with shares of risk being parceled out to like a dozen investors any given time who don't know one another and don't show the same tastes in our and maybe don't even like art. And it's kind of aimed at bringing an institutional advance investors in their offering these contract on future sales and treating it like a futures contract. And therefore, it's tradeable, so it's the first product like that to also to be authorized by the UK's financial conduct authority. We haven't had the same kind of ruling on it in America, but actually which is interesting because the US market is the largest market in the world, and it's also where most of these guarantees are happening. Well, okay. So it sounds like there's quite a lot going on. I suppose if you put all of this under the umbrella term, like the financial is Asian of the art market. I'm wondering. Is is that financials ation is part of it? Reflective of the nature of the art market itself at the moment, and what I mean by that is, you have a bunch of people who are sort of interested in it may be because they have new found wealth. But at the same time, you have a lot of new artists, modern artists who are contributing new pieces, and it feels to me, like for a lot of that modern art, it's much harder to attach a firm price tag to it, right. Because you don't really know what's going to happen with the artist you don't really know what the scarcity value of that. Art is going to be, you know, if Jeff Koons wakes up and decides to do in other like five hundred bunny statues, does that diminish the value of the one that Robert Mnuchin just bought is that part of the problem when it comes to financial ization are people trying to solve that issue through all these different Financing's? Yes. Although I'm hesitant to say solve because there's a huge ten. In here between the finance industry's approach to art and the art world approach to art, which has been really interesting to see this, because the issue is, is that institutional investment has always kind of shied away from the art market because it is just so illiquid, and so- unregulated. And shadowy there's an outage. That's like the art world is the most unregulated market behind a guns and drugs. And I don't really know if that's one hundred percent. True, but it certainly like hick something, rather nerdy and sexes it up, but the ah passively in the volatility of, of the market for especially contemporary, art, because the ply is so unregulated these artists are still alive and working in creating art, for the most part makes it a really bad investment prospect, though, there hasn't been a lot of things like that going on until the last couple of years, that being said, I, I do wanna like offer because I feel like there's a lot of media hype around what's happening with the art market right now. It, it does command a lot of attention. And it does. She's big numbers, which draw in people and be like, oh, wow. This has never been seen before. I will say, I think that there has been a lot of speculation on the art market in smaller more de-legitimize fashion for a really long time something I always like to bring up, actually is that in the early twentieth century. There is actually this French financier named Andre Lavelle kind of started out what we would turn the first art investment fund when he pulled together money from, I think, like a dozen people and be it'd the scheme called the Khoja lure excuse, my terrible French, which it means the skin of the bear, and this pool of money was used to invest in around one hundred works of art at the time by up and coming artists that were performing well-selling, well dot included then, oh, I remember this. Yeah. Included people like baba, Gaza at the time he was an emerging artists doing well, and the collection was liquidated in nineteen fourteen and everyone, you know, profits were shared out to everyone that invested and by, then the works headed about, like quadrupled in price. So it was a tidy. A little something that they got this. This was in the nineteenth century it was in the early twentieth century. Yeah. So this isn't exactly like a new idea per se and it like by the fifties and sixties, then your times is already publishing articles about using artisan investment tool, but it was just happening on such a smaller level. Now, like you said, Tracy, like the art market has just grown. It's just bigger now. That's like you said, there's just more people with money, and they want somewhere to spend it, and then, according to the annual UBS and art art Basel art market report, which is published every year, last year's DALE'S amounted to sixty seven billion worldwide most of that was in the US, but that is also trailed by UK in China. But you I want to go back to something, you said very early on that, I mentioned follow up on that, which is you said when the auction house had its own in, in house guarantee, and head to take inventory, let and that was called the art being burnt in is always at Baden Baden. But if bought. And it was burnt, and she'll, there was a stigma attached to that art forever. Is there a stigma the same way attached to pieces of art that had to be acquired by third party guarantor now not really? That's. Yeah. Okay. This gets into the, the thing, I mentioned earlier were, there is kind of moral issue at stake between the art world and the way the art will conceive of itself tributing value to a work of art, and the financial world way of attributing value to work, which is purely monetary. The issue with the art world's approach to this, and the use of third party guarantees in something like that, is because it doesn't crease the, the frostiness of the market and gets people participating in it wouldn't otherwise they're worried that the actual like intangible good of cultural value will be lost in art. That is obviously a really great PR campaign. This is also just an issue of like controlling the marketplace to like when it comes down to Europe. They want people that have this insider knowledge, working at, like establishing the price, they don't want people coming in, and essentially backing artists like new completely inflating its market and making unsustainable for the next twenty years. So just going back to that fund that you mentioned in the early nineteen hundreds, I remember, sort of similar, instance, of a certain art dealer, who started collecting a bunch of avant-garde artists at the time, like Picasso and Van Gogh and he ended up like investing a lot of money in those artists sort of supporting them. And by doing that he managed to, you know, almost start the market for that art. So I guess my question is when it comes to the third party guarantors, how much power are they actually wielding in the art market? When it comes to. Siding. You know, this artist is going to be cool or valuable, you know, this one, maybe not so much. Are they the arbiters of future, art prices? That's kind of the question is at stake right now. And why the art world is really confused about how third party guarantees will shake out, long-term. There's just not a lot of data to indicate that they're doing much more than essentially falsely propping up the, the market for some artists work, and maybe the market in general, the biggest concern about it is that they're just falsely establishing prices based on whatever they're willing to pay behind closed doors. I don't know if that's like actually that knew of an issue because most auction houses are making a lot of revenue through private sales anyway. So it might just be making visible something that's been going on a really long time. And that might just make the art world uncomfortable because it's been so Paik for so long. And again, like I said, it is increasing the liquidity of art, which has always been a real issue. You in as an asset class. So the question you pose is the question that we're still trying to figure out and I just think that there needs to be a lot more analysis, these auctions that separate out, guaranteed works and the results for those versus non-guaranteed works and so far, there hasn't been a lot of that. That's come forward. Murder kerrigan. This is a fascinating conversation. I love how indepth had got really appreciate you coming on and to your last point. It'll be interesting to see what that analysis wanted, eventually happen. Sounds good. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thanks far. That was great. Tracy, I really enjoyed that conversation. The whole time I was thinking about it. And that last point that Margaret made about the introduction of liquidity to the market. It seems like we're seeing this all over the place which is people trying to conceive of ways to bring liquidity to traditionally illiquid assets. You see it, obviously, with art people try to do with wine. You see, I get ads on Instagram for invested classic cars and another thing that we're seeing a lot and it's actually much bigger deal is houses in the rise of I buying. And you upload some photos and specs of your house to website, and it spits out an offer it feels like we're sort of in this era of everyone trying to figure out how they can make a sort of traditional illiquid assets trade more like liquid assets. Yeah. And I mean on the one hand a lot of that would make sense. Right. Because as you sort of get technological platforms that are able of capable of doing that than you could see why a lot of people would try to do it. But I gotta say, I know you mentioned traditional assets then. But the conversation reminded me of something else, which is crypto currencies. Right. And the notion that you have all these different crypto currencies and a giant market trying to attach a value to them based pretty much on adoption and maybe a little bit of underlying technology. Maybe it just it reminds me of the art market. Right. Like, how do you go to an art market? In say this painting is inherently better or more valuable than this other painting. Yeah. I think about this, a lot to even with, like, sometimes when I'm walking through central park, and I look at those gigantic released skinny skyscrapers, where people pay insane him onto money for a condo that they might not even live in end. It does feel like we are in an age. Dj in which a lot of money is paid out to things, and the main value that those things have is that they're worth a lot of money like there's a recurrence of nece to it. So the, the price, it self sort of imbues value in it. I always make this joke. When I see really expensive art sales like the ninety one million dollar coons bunny, where it's like at ninety one million dollars. It's a steal of a price, but at forty five million dollars, it would have been a it would have been a rip off merge. Suddenly, the fact that something gets more expensive. Suddenly make makes it a better value. See, I'm wondering how many expensive art auctions? You're going to that. You need to have set piece jokes for each one of them. I know after we have these conversations I do feel like an indescribable urge to log onto the Christie's website and start looking at art, which I'm sure would be a terrible terrible idea. Yeah. I think that would be a bad idea. But, you know, maybe like we could find some up and coming artists, maybe we could find the next Picasso. Sort of make them thing. Yes, please donate to the thoughts art fund, so we can start providing minimum guarantees for artwork worth what ten thousand maybe two other things that I thought of real quickly like one is in the end. Like if there are outsize returns in our guarantees, it's only a matter of time before institutions drive, those returns to where they aren't any better than anything else. So you sort of think like if you just have a few families offering guaranteed returns by the time it gets to the point where anyone with some money can go into an art guarantee fund, like you, you have to imagine that the, the, the juicy returns can't last too long. Right. Like the liquidity currently being in the art market, eventually is going to lead to all the sort of price arbitrage possibilities, being arbitrage out, guess, and in the end any attempt to sort of via financial alchemy to Rene, sort of naturally illi-. Quid, non commodified market, like art into a liquid tradable asset. Like there's probably gonna end with some people taking huge losses when there have a budget inventory on their books, and it goes out of style or there's a financial crisis or something like that. Like in the end someone's going to lose big time on this stuff. Well, I guess we'll find out willy I guess we will are this has been another edition of the odd, lots podcast, I'm Tracy Alloway? You can follow me on Twitter, at Tracy Alloway, and I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at the stalwart, and you should follow our guest on Twitter, Margaret Carrigan, she's at real life Maggie. And be sure to follow our producer, Laura Carlson. She's at Laura m Carlson, as well as the Bloomberg head of podcast. Francesca Levy at Francesca today. Thanks for listening.

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