20 Episode results for "tate modern"

Back to business

Monocle 24: Culture with Robert Bound

29:54 min | 1 year ago

Back to business

"Hello and welcome to Monaco on coach with me bound now you might remember that a few weeks ago. We spoke to the head honchos of the GUGGENHEIM's various outposts across Europe and the United States about galleries reopening finally. That point here in London, galleries and museums was still out of bounds for Hallelujah now slowly unfurling from a summer in hibernation nation today, producer Holly Fischer is down on London's South Bank for the reopening of tate modern. Well, if Tate's museums up and down the country are reopening their doors today, and it takes modern. We are reunited with car washes Hyndai Commission and the Turbo and whole could funds Americanos and a major Andy Warhol Exhibition that barely got his doors open before having to closely. So. What's it like stepping back into these familiar galleries after months spends at home holiyays for wonder with the art critic Louisa Buck. The banks of the Thames here in central London usually jam-packed this time of year. But aside from a few matlock's poking around the shoreline for treasure. It's eerily quiet. I step out from Blackfriars station. Hopefully things will start to pick up around to as the area's biggest attraction tate modern is reopening its doors today. After four months of being closed to the public, due to the pandemic, London museums are slowly starting to welcome art lovers back in. But they're reopening to very different world physically mentally socially and financially. As I turned the corner to head down the slate to the turbine hall I met by demonstrators. Protesting Tate's announcement had two hundred jobs than the company's commercial arm are at risk. Sadly, the arts sector faces tough feature. And so the sooner they can get crowds by Ken the better. However that's met with its own challenges of sation distancing. meaning that bookings required capacity is smaller and the way that you navigate the galleries stricter. To learn more about this obvious speaking to Maria Bozo director of tight art, museums and galleries. But before that I head into the tab in whole to meet the art critic Louisa Buck for the turning on of car awoke is. Higher Die Commission Funds Americanos. This enormous thirteen me, too high fountain has been on display since last October. and has now been extended to later on this year. Inspired by the Victoria Memorial outside Buckingham. Palace it explores interconnected, African American and European history. And questions public monuments remember and perhaps more importantly forget. It's a conversation that's always been important. But. It's been directly addressed in the months is the tape was last apron? As a result of the black lives matter movement. Win, it's great to be back inside the turbine wall of tate modern of several months in the Culture Free Wilderness gazing at our screens. How great to be here looking directly at car walkers amazing project for the Turbine, Hall, which has been reinstated and is shortly to be totally switched on is the great. Funds Americanise the fountain, which is based on the Victoria memorial outside Buckingham Palace but is instead of Queen Victoria atop the plinth. You've got this amazing Venus with Breasts Kim. Leaning back in a kind of glorious shout, but is it agony is ecstasy, because this is actually a memorial to what lay behind the glory of Victoria the abomination of slavery, the appalling background of colonialism and bloodshed and subjugation, upon which the glories of Victorian England were builds so here. You have a monument with Venus atop then around the plant. There's a tree with a noose. Reminding the Lynchings, there's more exuberant Monaco round the back called Queen. Vic, but who is actually some kind of God s with a melancholic figure beside her. There's also figuring the tree corn hat sitting there as a reminder of the slave leaders of the various slave rebellions than around the bottom of the fountain a shark. Shark circling, reminding of course of the polling devastation that took place where sharks, often devout slaves were thrown overboard from the appalling Atlantic passage, but also the Ri- reminder of Damien Hirst Sharks. It's it's channeling more not as well and at the front is a boat that threatening to sink based on the winslow homer painting, so you've got this coming together of art history, real history, colonialism monuments, and of course at this time, when monuments are being so questioned across the US across the UK as part of black lives, matter this monument that so deconstructs all the things that we hold dear or hold increasingly tainted -ly without familiar monuments. It's such a timely piece so great that it's still here. Well I think really great arts you know is both of its time and transcends time and Kara Walker made this piece when monuments. And sculptures already being questioned, but it's so timely now off the top of the Colston's statue in. In Bristol and then the cost, the whole Nomar Quinn episode of White, the White Man, reinstating his own work back on top of an exuberant black woman atop a pedestal, but it was his work. By black artists, these complicated strands going through and I look here at this monument at the Sculpture Funds Americana, and and I see so many utterly topical aspects to it, but also it's a timeless critique of sculpture, and over monument and I mean we've walked into I. Walked into the Turbine Wal walking through a demonstration of the workers who've been laid off by the commercial sector of tape. So you know we are living in strange times. These are troubled times and this car walk. Piece is a troubled A. A troubled monument with circling sharks, the figures in the water below, so he's both celebrate, and also very reflective. It's memorial. It's Memento Mori for all the millions of people who've suffered as a result of colonialism of slavery of all the background to these exuberant Victorian monuments now, pepper, the cities of America of the United. Kingdom of Europe many of which have such deep dog stained backgrounds I'm whose facts I think this is the car will about to be turned back on in a minute safe and come back. Say she flows the wonderful Venus. Funds America honest, or as it says on notice on the wall, the daughter of waters, and she's flowing from her hand from her breasts, and it's a wonderful exuberant site with to Venus's of Tate Francis Morris. Director of Tape Modern Maria Bozo director sitting down besides do really feel like hopefully. This is a new era of being able to experience now. Directly Albeit at a distance. Swear in the in the galleries the reopening. Andy Warhol Shy, and you can see this before. The tape went into lockdown. Perhaps you could just give us an idea of. What new information this exhibition gives us about Warhol. Show might think doing know warhol show the have been many, but the show which I'm so excited to revisit, because it opened just before lockdown, and then, of course there's been under. The sense it was. It's a show very much about warhol. The man is a gay man. In America as Warhol's, the result social connections, the kind of various networks of artists and Communities that he interface with the gay community the Trans Community the fact that he was very much within his time. He's always sort of to pick this strange outside when he's Wonky whigs down inside apart from the crowd observing, but I think this shows. Yes, indeed he did observe, and indeed that some of his legs in case, but also he was very much part of his world and very much warhol the. The Catholic the game on Warhol will help relationship with his mother that's beautiful. During the beginning of these mother May's mother to the lettering for many of his early works, so you've got the sense of a more rounded version of more human version of Warhol. It's still very rigorously curated, and it's got some amazing moments. I can't wait to revisit and so I. Think it's great that that show has remained. Intact, so we can see that I'm very sad. Whoever that Steve McQueen's exhibition here is not to be seen. You can still see his fantastic work with school children in Tate Britain, but that's not been possible. Because I think it was more hard to orchestrate being in black box video in in co spaces for people to watch film video and I warning for the future film and video as a medium because of this in the in these now socially distance times. It's interesting what you said about video. Because I think the beginning of lockdown, it was the medium ever saying. Can survive more easily online than you know huge sculptures. Do you think the street? I think a very different experience Steve McQueen all artists is absolutely rigorous about how his films a framed how the circumstances in which they're shown the size of the screen, the context, the whole kind of ambience solve them, so you know what's on your laptop or on your phone or indeed? Not Doing television screen is not the same thing at all. So yes, on the one hand you can experience deal out as a moving image on your screen, but I think it's still it's work. It's not media. It's not watching you know box, set or something on net flicks, and I think it needs that social space completion, so yes, it will translate easily to the small screen and two hand held device, but still there's no substitute for the actual encounter of the work in a designated space framed presented an. Produced, in the way that the artists actually wants it to be experienced. Louisa Di Begin to navigate the one way system into the permanent collection and has up to the first floor. I just wanted how you is not critic Kippen interacting with art. Galleries shot. It's been certainly a challenge when livelihood depends on experiencing our directly, not be able to see art to on the lockdown in the flesh, but actually it's been very interesting to see how many artists have been so ingenious in working online making films showing the con- line doing studio visit zoom visits, none of which you know, they're all strange SORTA substitutes for the real. Real thing but I think it's been really interesting for me to talk about also how artists actually have done stuff outdoors as well Peter liversidge that amazing forest of signs for the chance on the street corner I'm just off the mall and road which night he gone put more of these signs, supporting the NHS of encouraging slogans that by the end of it, thousands of them. That was interesting project. Other artists have. Found Ways Ryan Gander to hold very early to studio. For about two hundred people on Zun access never would normally have had to an artist studio. Gavin Turk also was very was very. Enterprising he had an egg eggs one of his motifs and he had to show any studio over Easter. The whole history of aggravated works riffing on everyone from Marguerite to Manzoni. And again he was me taking you round the show in his studio via zoom, so it's not been the same as as normal, but it was certainly an interesting exercise for me seeing all the different ways in which artists creativity is their business how they actually negotiated lockdown managed to get their work out there. People everywhere open, taking stock, thinking about the knives mentally and physically. In conversations you've had with people in the world is the has been an opportunity to stop and rethink how things done Oh. Do you think they're just clambering to get brought to normal as quickly as possible? I think a great. Many people felt that the old normal is not sustainable. This crazy traveling these carousel of Art Faz, being on his trip on his jumping on and off planes rushing around all over the place. I think you know it was felt that this was environmental. Please logically. Many reasons understandable. This polls was away for people to realize that she don't have to be on a plane. You can talk to people via the Internet. You can be more measured in reflective, but I mean I think it is difficult because the world, an international business and I think people. There's definitely gonNA need to be some kind of reassessment about how this business reconfigures itself. I mean major as Basel frees up also Miami. Who knows a? Other, been counseled or in abeyance under the art, Fazal I seventy percent of the business of galleries is adorned launched so. Going online is not being the same as looking lots of J. Pigs walking around on the booths, meeting people so I think there's going to be ways to negotiate how to slow things down house. Be More measured and how to more collegial. What I do think it's been interesting. Particularly art market is the way many commercial gardeners who would have been rivals in the pulse who've joined together. There's been a big box out group in London for example all the galleries sharing information about fallow about tenants, landlords rent shipping, etc, etc.. Los Angeles also as a platform now democratic platform different galleries clubbing together so I think hopefully we're going to reconnect with our humanity a bit more and be snow Quanta more considered and more collegial, more cooperative with each other I mean that's the hope at least. I leave Louise to continue her tour. While I go in such a tate's director Maria poll show in the front consoler room. She tells me how the museums are adopting within these new creative and financial constraints. Well, we come back to a changed world as you rightly observe, and first of all we've been addressing the practical and pragmatic. Questions of how can people come back and enjoy the experience of an artwork and we? We know that people really really want it especially over the last few weeks, there's been this building conversation with our public who've really enjoyed lots and lots of material and content digitally, but starting to write saying it's not the same on the screen I want to be in the spaces. And I think what people are hungry for because of the fear and anxiety that we've been managing largely on our own, I think what people are looking for. Is that experience of standing in front of something like these amazing FRANKEN Tala paintings that we're with the morning and looking at it on their own, but knowing that there's somebody else three or four meters away who is also having a profound emotional connection, so your able to be separate, but your part of a community of viewers who are thinking and. And feeling about the work, and I think that's part of us sort of learning how to be a social society again, and it's going to be hugely important as we rebuild people's confidence and support their mental health, because the strain of being isolated, it's been felt by every single. One of US must be incredible to be able to come to these museums. The doors are closed when it's all. Look sad for everyone. All the museums have been closed, but have you spent much time in any of them and. Maybe with any particular pieces of art that you haven't spent much time with before. Well I think this would be an experienced it. All Museum director out over the last months when you come in and the lights down and the buildings rent. It's actually quite upsetting. I thought it might be restaurant Tive, but it wasn't an my colleague. Gabriella Finale said the same thing about walking around the National Gallery when they were beginning to prepare to open. And without people. The it's. Hard to be with the artworks. I distracted myself by looking at the building itself. Here at tate modern when the lights down, and they've got the emergency nights running up the escalators. Those escalators start to let light sculpture themselves, but it was eerie, and and it reminded me how much art needs people to activate it. And in terms of. A particular work. Because of the black lives matter. Protests that we've seen congress walk has been in my mind throughout the histories that it explores that we've been looking at again. but in terms of space to reflect I kept returning to this room the Franken Thala. And and also the Rothko Room, which is a place that people go very very often to. Reflect. And I think that's one of the things that we've missed during lockdown space to reflect because so much of a life is an emergency. We're coming back to a tricky time as well and Nino walking in here. This protests going on outside people in. The main challenges that tate and the art world generally faces within the next year or say the most immediate and profound challenges financial. Because with many visitors we have much less income and we've had some government support, which has been hugely welcome I mean essential. All of the national museums wouldn't been able to survive this crisis without that government support, but that need to be ongoing and. For those of us that trading companies in a for profit enterprises there is downsizing. That has to happen. We hope there will be. An up sizing again very soon, but that's not in our control. Because while social distancing measures required, we will have very many fewer people. As, we were talking to caravel from Guggenheim in Venice a few weeks ago and she was talking about how. Exhibitions are going to have to change because of these financial constraints as well. They might get a bit more localized perhaps. Our. How do you think that's going to affect the future of expeditions here? I would say this quietly Petacci. I think it might be quite exciting. It's often the case, isn't it? There were oxides that come out very difficult. Situations, so we need to change the exhibition model for many reasons, not only financial challenge the emergency that is the state of our planet. You know it was just reading the morning about the levels of plastics in the sea. And tape we we made a declaration of climate emergency. We take that responsibility incredibly seriously, and it's only been underlined by this crisis so. We will see exhibitions that run for much longer. Give people more time to see Ethan which will mean that in any one year we do fewer. I think we'll be more careful in choosing those exhibitions that we do need international loans for because transport of art is one of the most environmentally and financially costly things that we do. There's a chance to minar own collection much more as the basis of exhibitions, but also to. I'm in this room. It's a mini exhibition. It's gone from Tate's own collection and those displays a free, so we've had a hierarchy where we talk about exhibitions versus displays, but what people enjoy is beautiful works, so I think we've got some opportunities to make our program actually more experimental and diverse, which will speak to the very diverse city. That London is we contempt if we change free displays from our own collection more often, this more incentive for people to repeat visit. So we weren't lose the kind of. Once in a lifetime warhol exhibitions entirely because I think we'll be experimenting with doing lots of new and different things that make our impact while the lighter in the world. Just finally recording this Friday of a savory reopening, the does Monday. Is there a point in that day that you're particularly excited about whether? It's really putting the doors or seeing people come to particular room or see a particular. Otwock on Monday morning I will be tape written with the Secretary of State. For Culture Digital Media and Sport and Steve McQueen the artist and we'll be standing in year three his extraordinary portrait of classes of children now at the moment, children can't gather in that plastic school photograph mode of them all sitting next to each other as thirty. But it's a portrait of optimism. It's about what we will return to, and it's what we did before. We were closed to make each of those children in that portrait field that they were part of the national collection, so Steve Hasn't seen it since lockdown either I know it will be enormously emotional standing with him. In year three, but when the visited step in, that's the moment looking forward to. Louisa! refound you in the wool exhibition. Am you've had a chance to walk around the -tated as a bit now. Is it nice to be back? It's wonderful to be back. It's wonderful to be seeing some old friends looking all the work. Still the I'm so surprised to see you know that I don't realize it. Tate collection the richness, the diversity, the global aspect of the collection, because quite often you rush in temperatures and then rush out again and don't look at the collection itself. So what they've done is they've instigated a one way system where you go all the way round on throughout the collections, it's very different routes, obviously through the Warhol as well. It's a one way system I mean it works fine. Fine now because it's empty. It's just the press wandering around I. Do feel though what's going to be tricky is if you want to double back, look something subnetting online. We love that work. What was the title of that? That's going to be very difficult when it's fully operational because you have to stick to your route, so that kind of spontaneity, I think going to be lacking in the same way that you can't dip into tate now without buying a ticket, so that's been more of a regimented experience, but having said that I mean just just such a treat such treat to be standing here. Surrounded by these fantastic wore whole drag queen as they say, they'll densify themselves. Paintings here looking at this great show of Warhol as a network individuals, a gay man, seeing the different human lights or amplifying the things one new, but with different aspects to it, so it's a real joy experiencing this work in the flesh getting close looking at things finding killer details Leonor kind one of my favorite female surrealists. Look fantastic details in the work of I didn't know the Tater God, so you know it's great to be back. I urge everyone to get booking and come and see the work in the flesh. Any calorie anywhere in the world is the one that you're particularly looking forward to getting back to. Oh Gosh. Many the so many works I long to see again I mean I she i. really loved the. Produ- in Madrid I'm going to try and get the late this year and just get close the Goya's black paintings, and my all time favorite were Alaska's last minute us, so it's not very contemporary of me, but that's a gallery that I'm really really looking forward to visiting. Thera- plenty of challenges ahead for the art world, but it'll be interesting to see big museums take do with the new limitations imposed on them. And how feature exhibitions reflect current topics. Just spending a morning back inside a gallery is a stark reminder of the importance of art to do just that and to spark conversation. And speaking sparking compensation for those, he can't get back to the tate or any other galleries just yet. There's still plenty going online. As part of uniquely tate late night, ten series this Thursday, the writer Olivia Lang Chats Kate Hutchinson about Andy Warhol which you can stream from seven PM. This does day on Tate's website, but for now we'll end for the sneak preview. Cordial is suitable, Boho experience, and you the idea that other people are dangerous that they might infect you. It comes up over and over again in his writing that he feels all the time like people are GonNA flood him in seem him. They can fill him up with that proclaims, and at the same time he's fascinated. He warps tonight more. He wants to get into and most of all wants to record. With your burke the. mean it sounds like you must have spent hours and hours, chlorine either his diaries. How many of his diaries rage? I mean the volume is up there actually and it is monumental. It's absolutely massive brick the book and it is the most fascinating book I believe s not quite true. It's literally values apparently low, but it's gossip. Values are extraordinarily high, and you can look up absolutely any political society cultural figure not. Repair when Donald Trump became president won't let see what anti trump and bear he adds as some kind of idiot socialite in he comes. It's like he quotes the. Late twentieth century between pages, and that such a whole thing to do to be. Trying to catch every aspect, the society Morganson an gossip about beaming about. Getting people to tell them his secrets I feel like I've always had until I read your book. I feel like I always had the wrong impression of Andy Warhol. I grew up seeing all these pages him at. Parties surrounded by famous people, many of which he's written about in his diary and I. Think if the factory with all these. Amazing characters wandering around all the time. What dreary to the idea that he was actually solitary figure in your book. That's such a good question, because that's exactly how I saw about him as well as like vacuous boring and a another work, really well million times, says everybody else nothing to see here, and then was already writing about nine in us and ascorbic eropean where he was to Kink. Wasn't really talking. Could Brady Talk? He was so shy and frightened analysis, new stuttering and stammering. He was with de Sedgwick and he whispered like literally whispered his answers on some big chat show into her ear, and she stayed on for him. So this is fascinating. This consumer socialite is actually clearly very socially awkward. And the more I ought to solve investigate him to read his books to look at his work again more. It seemed like it was very shy. Vulnerable Wounded Cussin', inside. His. What became more and more interesting? The mood I fully that line through the more I thought about intensive damage disguise wanting to make the same because it was dangerous. Be Different, more electrifying. All of Tate's museums now open and you can book your tickets at Tate. Dot Org Dot U. K. Monocle and coach is produced by Holly Fischer. Join US at the same time next week. I'll be chatting with the director of a new documentary about American Civil Rights, and until then for me. Robert Bounds. Thank you very much vicini.

Andy Warhol tate United States director London Steve McQueen Maria Bozo Tate Victoria Memorial tate modern Europe GUGGENHEIM Louisa Buck Holly Fischer Tate Francis Morris Blackfriars station Tate Britain America tate modern matlock
I Went Out on the Deck of the Viewing Area at Tate Modern - Number 45

Broken to Brave

05:10 min | 8 months ago

I Went Out on the Deck of the Viewing Area at Tate Modern - Number 45

"Number forty five went on the deck of the viewing area of teat modern. After the i went walking along the teams and had lunch from vietnamese food and molly played with giant bubbles and we watched a man. Make an elaborate sandcastle. We ended up at the tate modern art museum and decided to wander around. We were told that the viewing area gives the best views of london. So i knew where we were headed. I wasn't necessarily happy about where we were headed. But we were headed there nonetheless out. I went onto the deck and holy crap. It's high you can see into condos on one side and other side of the tames and the various bridges in the area saint paul cathedral at cetera. It was cold and windy. And i'm sure this is one of the things on my list. That i can say i did and will never do again. I proved what i needed to prove to myself. Sometimes bravery is trying something. Once episodes of broken to brave are released every tuesday and thursday. Thank you so much for listening and for joining me on this journey of healing and growth if you want to go deeper into the story and hear it from spouses perspective. My husband and i have a patriot. Only show where we haven't extended behind the scenes discussion of every episode which also post twice a week. Here's a sample of our latest patriots. Only companion podcast. This okay so cool okay. But first let's get there so we believe the way. Leave the i and then you walk along the tames there along the river walk. We had vietnamese food from ho- truck. It was so good. There was a bubble man who was the we were having the forty experience because he had bubbles instead of foam. Now he didn't get he didn't get me wet but okay molly went over and he got to play with the bubbles bit but he had like kids going inside the ball. He had like really saucers of her. And then we had the guy on the beach down below us like a few feet down below us. And he made the most amazing Sandcastle yeah that was super cool. He was just so fun. Everywhere we looked it was just creativity and then whole like boardwalk area was just full of food and food and so they were like food trucks and that vietnamese also orleans show my god it was delicious and then there was that Place where they did like the carvings. Oh my god this is when this is remember. We went to the globe. Oh yes well that was on our our walk. We knew it was coming up. Yeah okay and it was a big thing of a mile. He'd been doing needed something for my life. We'll scan i go. Here's a target at which point molly nets the globe but their logo circle third. It doesn't look like the target. Lowe's buy target in the area target. Oh my god. We're you saying were walking in. We're we're like oh look like oh it's target okay. Good i gotta get these malkin's and you're like that is not target. You fricken weirdo god. That was the funniest damn thing. That was so embarrassing. Because i said it. Like i wasn't no i fully thought it was a target and you can't take the white suburban american god a target in the middle of the london. I this purpose. That was so funny. That was so funny. We have a picture of it. Because i was like seriously like target. No no one. No one agrees with the globe. Theatre have a picture of globe them like. Why is it a red circle. Like target bullseye. So that was a red circle. It's not a bullseye. Whatever is click. It's a cannibals. I know dogging the all to hear the rest of this episode and get other exclusives become a patron to broken debris at patron dot com. You can also follow my blog at broken debris dot com for even more insights and engaging content links in the show notes broken to brave as production of southgate media. Group hosted and written by me martha southgate. Thank you so much for listening. Now go do something brave a.

tate modern art museum saint paul cathedral molly molly nets london Lowe malkin southgate media martha southgate
Top of the Pods: climate crisis with Olafur Eliasson, Justin Brice Guariglia and Anna Somers Cocks

The Art Newspaper Weekly

47:53 min | 2 years ago

Top of the Pods: climate crisis with Olafur Eliasson, Justin Brice Guariglia and Anna Somers Cocks

"The newspaper put coasties brought to you in association with bonhams auctioneers in seventeen ninety three to find out more visit bombs dot com. It's been Lukic. Welcome to the latest in our top of the pods episodes in which we're looking back at highlights from the two hundred interviews and discussions. We've done on the newspaper podcast over the past two years. I'm recording this in London on a sweltering day in U._k.. Following many places in Europe the U._S. South Asia and the Middle East this year temperatures are likely to be the hottest on record. This is now a regular pattern which scientists linked directly to anthropogenic climate change so this week we're focusing on the climate crisis with two interview from December twenty eight eighteen and a more recent one from May Twenty nineteen. The Art World is beginning steadily to take action on the seventeenth of July twenty nineteen. The directors of the tate declared a climate emergency and pledged to quote to respond with actions across all four tate galleries anodyne stools that this center stage this act was in part inspired by the artist refer Leeson whose retrospective exhibition at tate modern opened early in July the tape praised allegiance ethical commitment to addressing environmental issues and event with hundreds of artists campaigners communities and arts organizations was organized in Tate Modern Turbine who the TATE director statement was made following that gathering Leeson had also been at tate modern in December twenty eighteen to unveil the latest iteration of the project is watch which speak two blocks of sea ice pulled from the waters close to Greenland installed on the landscape outside tate modern and headquarters at the sponsor Bloomberg in the city of London and slowly melting away the event was staged. Just as world leaders were gathering to discuss the climate crisis in Katowice in Poland and I spoke to a listen over the phone on the December twenty eighteen about the project and his climate crisis activism Olafur you stage this work twice before. Can you tell me about those formats that you've displayed it in the past and and what kind of effect it had how the audience reacted yes absolutely first time we did is was was in Copenhagen when they so-called I._P._C. bought released the paper of the document based on which the Peres Chris Summit the COP twenty one took place so so the so the scientific report with all the data all the sort of science and work in evaluations and gathering for of whether you know analytical material that report is essentially what created the foundation on with the cops the U._N.'s body for monitoring the climate and recommending solutions. I'm meeting right so the first time a real serious version of this paper that was released wasn't Copenhagen. All the scientists was there and and I said we need to make that report attentive. This is probably the most important documents since I don't know since the bike or something right and in that sense I called the mayor's office in Copenhagen Found Philanthropic Support Award and we we on the street within very short time showed a smaller or the first version of is what's and suddenly I think the the sort of the broader public became aware might not all these U._N.. Scientists are in town and they they are you know releasing this document. They're talking about the data and for me as an artist. It was very important to say well. Data stays up in our head why we see Dotson at the paper but emotional chains. I mean to to actually react the act on data you need. You need to make Datta explicit so that we can touch it. We can feel it so I said okay the why why don't we bring the the inland is the glacier ice from Greenland. Just put it on the street and pupil can walk over to it and touch it and look at it and and what happens is that it's very touching. I mean when you look at the ice. It's very beautiful. It's bluish clearly has lots of small bubbles and as the ice I met the pop the bubbles they crack like little pop popcorn so that there's a little not so loud but there's little concert of puppy and what it is of course a glacier has a lot of pressure is so heavy so that boppers are under pressure right so once the ice mess suddenly here like pop and that's because that did it bubble has a lot more pressure than the outside and so on so it's very interesting that that it is very physical and <unk> active a lot of senses Copenhagen I met then you know the the people who are preparing for the Perez Summit The friends the famous French Ambassador to Copenhagen at the time see me the the French foreign minister came to Copenhagen. He heard about it hugh into Greenland and somehow the U._N.. Got Hold of the idea of doing the ice what's in Paris then and interestingly the cop twenty one in Paris the famous one the where where you know whether they agree liane maximum two degrees increase in temperature and the recommended was actually one and a half degree which was proposed by the small island states right so but but that was based on the scientific documents from Denmark and together with the U._n.. And the mayor's office making an Hidalgo the mayor of Paris we did it on the streets. Despite the fact that two weeks earlier that been the terror attacks so really WANNA give credit to the the Paris sort of sense of not changing this the sort of public agenda that was actually quite impressive because obviously report was traumatized and it's not like once you have a terror attack is not like that the climate concert which is so abstract together is the main thing but the credits for the to the French for actually pulling through anyway really in the most the most amazing way the latest iteration is in connection with the cat of a meeting of all these world leaders. Did you consider showing there or was it always. Did you always feel that London was more appropriate so now there's there is the last version one version. We're doing right now right and the thing is I spoke to the U._N.. Again the the cutter which a meeting is is about the application of the ratification of what was agreed on in Paris. Obviously they're gonNA also discussed the fact that the recommendation says now ah a bit now one and a half degree seems to be the maximum but but essentially the Police Cup is I wouldn't call it more practical but it is about well. What are we actually doing and obviously the truth is not enough doc so I I then started calling around and said listen? Could we do the ice again isn't it isn't it assets and now and I was actually interested in again not to be at the scientists side to be at a very a public site and I have a lovely collaboration with Bloomberg philanthropy. They've been supporting my little son Solo Project for a long time and I called the people at Bloomberg who has just opened this quite amazing and very sustainable building in London I was funded then from Bloomberg and I found a site in London by the take well obviously I have a relationship I worked with him so often before yes so so now Alpha catcher which we are trying to bring about the same thing. How does it actually feel to put your hand on the ice and feel on your skin? What on Earth are they talking about in Kutch Region the thing? It seems to me that they were does very cleverly as it works with the idea of time in all sorts of ways and and and visualizes the complexity of time the discussions around climate encapsulate. Can you say something about that yeah well well. I think that the fact that the ice is so compelling to look at what one thing which is of course amazing is that you look at something which is twenty thousand years old. Maybe twenty five fifteen thousand years you look at old old. Glacier is the ice. How should I say the isis melting away in front of your eyes and their Sunday this notion of on like this old like twenty thousand years and it's going to be gone in a week in London right so there's something really quite explicit about the way that this is? Oh No this amazing is how let's let's do something to protect it somehow and and in that sense because obviously the the time time eliminate which is so difficult with the whole sustainable discussion of the climate discussing is that it is it. Is You know it's sort of outside of our life span horizon. We know that risks and worrying that my Covari about the climate is kind of after I die so says always I always when you have a climate discussions always great to have a child in the room or grandchildren they won't you know what I mean to make explicit Blissett the time that is not tangible by the time that is outside of our immediate concern and and in that sense <hes> this idea of the twenty five thousand a year which is anyway. I mean in that sense I think some potential in we need to understand when talking about the planet and sustainability we need to be less ristic C._B.. On our lifespan and our time and even though this is so how should I say it's like I wouldn't call it abstract. This is like a thought we need to make physical. I mean the thing about about that. physicality is it impresses upon people the actual urgency because as you say there is this sort of idea of it being beyond our lifetime but certainly in the I._p._C._C.'s most recent report. It's they make it very clear that there is this twelve year window that we have where humankind does enough we can stop it tipping over into the two degrees warming and keep it at one point like five which everybody accepts that is going to happen so in a way again in your visualizes that urgency doesn't it yeah I will. I mean I think it's for me and my work is about the relationship it between individual opportunity. What can we do as individuals and the most systemic so changes which are needed to we need you know the politicians the public sector to to take responsibility and to introduce systemic changes we we we need the private sector to take upon the sustainable ghosts and actually make commitments and stick to them but but but these latter systemic thinks which is of course what you and it's also sort of focusing on in terms of recommending nate <hes> a nation states have what what can they actually do as a state as a country but we the civic sector the Civic Society we need to take individual stance and individual sort of micro changes Amana no changes in that sense? I think the the idea with the is in that sense is just ten people make in a very straightforward way well what on earth is going on like what is going on with her for that matter and of course my art in a sense has always been about this this notion of well my personal and my critical experience of reality or of the world or of my context what what does that mean to me and how can I change that do I am I a consumer of the world or a CO producer and a Co author of the world and to sort of shift the notion to say that you are not pacify do not you're not nothing you're actually important. You have agency. You can do things you can vote. You can actually influence also the systemic changes so that says I'm I'm very curious about and I understand is complex complex right but I'm very curious about. Can we make people into chains agents and drive the civic society interested a systemic force. We should not vote for the politicians mutation who simply a mismanaging our future right so that's a systemic individual relationship but of course we need movement on the kind of community the local the Civic Levin we need action action on death row D. feel the works become more important cincy first-stage too in the sense that when you first did it President Obama was in power in the United States for instance and he was somebody he recognized climate changes the importance the climate change <hes> obviously since we've had all these populist governments coming into power and many of them are antagonistic to climate change action so therefore. Do you think this this work becomes more important because of that I mean that would be the obvious thing to say that we need mall civic courage. We need people who actually take a stand and and you know it's it's honorable to actively become an an activist and stop what you disagree with even physically quite literally. I think it's unruh to to to sort of rise up against the people who infect ruining your grandchildren's lives or your children's lives but but I also think that is important to notice that you know maybe the the the the how should I say maybe they they exploited NATO of trump has actually promoted greater client with consciousness in America with a stronger civic movement because frankly speaking yes I mean as as much as we liked Obama and the world at the time but it's not like he did a lot for the climate I mean we shouldn't forget that he it was not like I mean he was sort of climate conscious yes but it's not like he was in any way rediker not not at all not radical and that sense the urgency has been around for a while and we see very few leaders sort of testing testing their voters confidence we have small island states who are doing radical things. I'd like the small islands and luckily they aren't catches to maybe we see the Fiji Islands of buying land in other countries to who move hold communities within our lifetime so so we see small island states being much more radical in their in their sort of approach and we see the people who are forced into questions about climate justice but the sub sub Saharan countries for instance where you are likely to have a much greater climate impact with them having no they had no stake in creating the climate prominence right so and suddenly they up becoming very active because they are like and and this of course is what's going on and catch. Did you have the the the well off states and then you have the vulnerable states and one of us they say well. You have to pay for our adjustment to the climate so I guess this is the kind of main topic action but suddenly we you know civic society need to come up with solutions that we think is important that I just heard actually from the amazing Mary Robinson former Prime Minister of Ireland <hes> who came to my studio last visit. Promoting her book on Climate Justice Test Heard in the discussion with her that some people suggesting that if you because of the climate become a climate refugee that could be a lot of people you are automatically given a passport to one of the perpetrators so let's say that Ethiopia for instance that that's nine hundred million less Ethiopia apart of Ethiopia this the whole eastern pot ha which is very very drought data if that really goes into this. Let's say that there's thirty million four million people simply. They could be climate refugees and let's say the U._K.. The U._k. who's been so busy with the brexit that they have done nothing in particular to publicly discuss the climate right because they're borey pool is full of brexit right so why don't we give the thirty forty million people from the climate potential climate refugees from Ethiopia okay. Why do we give them? A British passport. Isn't that just fair to say that the countries that created the problem they need to host the people who don't know where to go and instead now into refugee camps and you know what do what do I so in. I I love this at the very famous there was I think Wisconsin Nansen Passport Nine thousand nine hundred twenty when you know when you know it was very the very beginning of this idea of you know you get the plastic as a refugee and you can trust any country you want to but so I so I think people underestimate the gravity of the situation and in that sense Nakata Vici. I'm so curious to see what's going on but the truth is the scale of what we are facing each. It's a lot more robust. Your work right from the start has addressed climate change isn't it I mean you did the glacier series in one thousand nine hundred nine for instance series of photographs so this has been absolutely at the core of your work right since the start yeah I've been interested in nature and I've been interested in for a long time the so called relationship between culture nature the man in NATO woman woman of course and and the so called on top of it so the sort of experiential. Should I say context of the experience conditions. What does it mean to actually not experience nature but experienced yourself as being a part of the nature Danta proceed right the consequences of your presence and the sense of present simply and Iceland was always that was my toolbox so to speak I was I being from that inspired me and so on and so forth I did the weather the project but frankly speaking where the product was both about drawing attention to the ephemeral within the city right the weather it's but it was also to sensitize people to say well? Maybe the camera and the collective and and when I say their family I mean our sense of nature since of the atmosphere and the collective needs to be seen connected the shared experience of nature in our city it's so so and and so it would be lil on say that I've dressed address climate specifically throughout my I've addressed questions about ecology and nature and experience and obviously the climate evolving the climate debate has that at its very hot and I was interested by something you said about the weather project which was at the time the discussions around that work were plural and climate was one of them but there they were lots of other things discussed but but the the further we get away from that were the more and more it's discussed in terms of climate change yeah. It's <hes> I guess maybe that was a very deep deep subconscious notion off <hes> emerging field but not yet verbalised field but emotionally had resonance with Cuba so when I said the weather project I think there was a sense of humor recognized to address the weather as a space of importance. Maybe not urgency but at at of relevance actually gave language to something that had not yet been fully verbalised so the was I mean in two thousand and three the boss that increasing sense of things changing I mean while preparing for the project during the summer and I was also doing the catalog for this show of course the sun was just it's funny. The the the worst paper and Britain called the Sun Right. This son had an amazing cover which is the hottest day in history and you know for the sun to put that undercover. I think just reflects the fact. The people were paying attention lawnmower to something a bit odd two thousand and three of course is is funny. It's called the sun and then it's the hottest history and and I was doing the weather protest I put that cover in the catalog of the show and I was making reference just to the fact that we need to be we we need to challenge our numbness. We have we become numb. I mean to each other to to our moral compasses to activists to have we lost it somehow right. Have we just become consumers and funny enough. I mean two thousand three sounds like yesterday right but then wash no instagram there was there was no I mean I guess the West facebook right but but there was no social media isn't it the wildest thing and have they enabled us to become critical to become activists to take a moral stand become you know pro progressive no they're not. It's just a funny. We always think that incident is like an empty file of of democracy mccreavy. I'm not I don't see that even though I'm active social media participant but so with regards to you know where where do how do people look back at work today yeah I think I think it's a I'm very happy. People still remember it and I am proud to have done it and hunter for the attention that it got but but but I think a great work of great because it it keeps maintaining a relevant position in the contemporary discussion so when we talk about the weather <unk> we actually talk about today. I don't think people talk about back then. I think that's that's an important distinction because talking about the past is kind of like an escapades old back then all museums much better than they are now but to talk about I mean to go in and see a great work of of historic out somewhere we look at it today so it's I think it's more the question of what does the past of the presence rather than than the opposite and before you go. I can't not ask you about the fact that you are returning to tate modern next July with a big survey show we climate change feature in that show they service show at the tape next summer. <hes> <hes> will have a a kind of substantial view of my work throughout twenty years so it's a very exciting thing for me and it s I'm actually working on it now. I can see that certain themes have been continuous they relationship. We have to nature how we how we define nature has been at the heart of my work throughout the whole thing so that will be in the show and in that there is that whole relationship well. How do we then Act Act upon the nature of the work what is atmosphere's that's in the show too so on the other side also have to say well? The way that I like to work with that is that I offer the viewer. Her visit to my show to reflect upon their own position within the with within the context of the work. They're looking at so do they or do I succeed offering the people the feeling that the artwork is actually looking back at them or the advocate for that matters listening to their stories so somebody looks I hope at my and say this is this is the work that is expressing something thing on my behalf and not on my expense right and for me if somebody who's a sort of busy finding out what is going on with the climate that is the moment where that worked says yes well. I think the climate is the topic here and the person says yes. This is about the climate but but I also think as me for me as an artist. I need to be careful to tell people what they think because that's me telling people they're not smart. I need to sell people people. You're smart you ideas great. I don't have to say what you should think about you. Think an I think great work without actually listens to you and you leave the museum saying somebody listen to me. I must be good enough. I I am actually an activist for that's a good point to end our discussion. Thank you so much for talking to me accident. Thank you and good luck with it. You can read and see much more of ice which in essence exhibition in real life which is at tate modern until the sixth of January Eliasson's conversation with Mary Robinson the former Irish president and the Roger The climate justice is in the show's catalogue which is published by Tate Post Nine Hundred Pounds Ninety nine or twenty four dollars ninety nine now at the beginning of May two thousand nineteen. I went to Venice to interview various artists at the finale. One of them was just embrace. Gorilla whose work has consistently drawn attention to the climate emergency. He's work extinction distinctive features in the Biennale in an exhibition called artists need to create on the same scale that society has the capacity to destroy the show is a church deep in the Cana regio district Venice but I spoke to really in the judge Dini women either national pavilions located in the opening days. I used to be an early and not I got one very wrong. At the end of this conversation there was in fact a lot of climate crisis theme where inventors including the works of the Lithuania pavilion the won the Golden Lion but Justin's response as well with hearing. Here's the interview so so now standing in the <hes> be gnarliest Giardina area with Justin Brice Kariya and we're going to talk about his contribution to this show about climate change just in you've made a hell of a lot of work about this subject about the anthropoid purpose seen tell me about why you have such a powerful conviction in this in this subject you know I think responding to the ecological crisis is probably the moral imperative of our time so I think it's it's something that it's just it has to be done. It has to be addressed. There's no way to escape the issues that we're we're seeing and that are playing out around the world and in in terms of this show. It's a very simple <unk> succinct work that you're presenting. Tell us more about it. Yeah well you know the connection of fossil fuels to ecological crisis to climate change global warming is very direct <hes> one day I was in the studio and starting to play around with this Exxon logo and I realized Oh Exxon. If you just spread the letters out you can make sexually spells that extinction so I started playing with that and then ended up creating neon a neon work that it's very direct obviously it's very blunt but at the same time you know these issues need to be <hes> they need to be quite direct. I'm trying to broadly raise the public consciousness on these issues and so the work has to be very accessible. It has to be something that's very direct very easy to get you. Don't have to have an art history degree to understand what it is. That's that's seeing experiencing so nope that's kind of where this project came out and in in London recently presented a work called reduced speed now and one of it consisted of a series of signs like motorway signs with urgent messages with poetry with messages ages from Greta Timberg for instance. One of those signs had a list of species that we're becoming extinct and they seems to me extraordinary timing given that we just had a U._n.. Report about the human effect on wildlife we just report coming out. It's just a it's just something you concerned about anyway. You know what what is it about you know artists about challenging our moral <hes> you know our moral assumptions right our the ethical assumptions and so when we talk about you know human the human connection to climate change you know we have to look at what our impacts right and at the end of the day our impacts all boiled down to one thing and I learned this talking to Timothy Morton the philosopher Tim and I've had conversations for vast couple years and it all boils down to one thing it all boils down to this notion of extinction whether we go extinct or the all the species around is go extinct so so this has been in the back of my mind for a long time <hes> and this is something I've been thinking about for a while and then the U._N.. report I learned about it coming out last week. You know about just a few days before it came out <hes> so the timing was on rather uncanny <hes> as you know. The report says that they're about a million species that are <hes> that are essentially on track to go extinct over the next several decades because of our impacts right so this is like sin same name. This is a this number this numbers mind boggling <hes> so the timing just happened to be very good <hes> but at the core the core of all the work I I've been making food for over a decade now has been it has been addressing these these issues so this is really interesting shift that you made in your career which I think speaks to the power of art and that's that you were essentially a ripple Taj photographer right and he made this shift into a can you explain why because in a way it seems counter intuitive but I I love photography you know it's very direct <hes> medium but I found that a lot of the ideas that I was <hes> starting to is to to to have an opinion I was starting to have from all my travels and the things I was learning out in out in the field right because all my work really is a product of my research in the field <hes> and I started realizing I think wow you know a lot of these things that I want to express. I couldn't express through a photograph. They had to be more had to be more nuance to be more complexity to them and that's when I realized I needed to start playing with materials and processes scale and things like that which didn't really exist you know we couldn't really do in photography so that's how I started ending up doing all these other projects dealt with now neon signs but the highway signs of uniform Somerset House we just did which started about a year ago back in the states them making large scale paintings and all these other things so it's really about trying to figure out a more complex <hes> more complex language to express <hes> this very very complex. Tissue the anthrax vaccine is a very very complex thing and it cannot just photograph can't just tell the story unfortunately is interesting is because we're in Venice at the moment and and actually there were hundreds and hundreds of exhibitions of art here and yet that is absolutely at the front line of climate change with the rise of sea level Venice will be underwater soon and I'm not sure it feels like there's much which seems to be conveying Wang this urgent message in this place seems almost dreamlike. I haven't been around to see the I just arrived so I haven't seen any of the other work yet <hes> when we did check into the when I checked into my room the host said to me by the way if the water comes up into the apartment call me so we can find another apartment for you and then I saw seaweed right outside my doorstep yesterday and I was like okay. We're really really fucked and so I'm I'm actually a quarter of Venetian so for me. This is like a personal a little bit of a personal thing but this is a major major issue here <hes> and this is one of the Ground Zero for climate change inch <hes> Venice is sinking the sea level is rising and so it's kind of a double whammy <hes> for for the locals here but I think art really needs to <hes> needs to step up and address these things we were in a very very very critical <hes> zone right now when we talk not only about species but our own human the human species and and and the impacts that we are going to suffer <hes> and so I think it's it's absolutely urgent to be addressing these issues and for artists to engage with these issues because we're we're like the last resort where the you know. There's no religion anymore. It's like it's art. It's art needs to be the medium that conveys vase to society you know and help the help society understand <hes> their role in the world and so I mean artists really need to step up to this <hes> an injustice issue just didn't think he talking to me. The Cuban you can see the exhibition artist needs create on the same scale that society has the capacity to destroy at the Church of the penitentiary in Venice into the twenty four th of November related show in which Justin's were also features is the Kobe Museum of art at Colby College in Waterville Maine until the fifth of January guerrillas work. We are the asteroid threes at the Buffalo Bayou Sculpture Park in Houston Texas and you can hear him deliver lectures this November at the University of Northern Iowa in Cedar Falls and at the Pratt Institute in New York now in the December twenty eighteen issue of the art newspaper we covered at length the report in the scientific journal Nature which showed the potential impact of sea level rise on on heritage in Europe and particularly around the Mediterranean we attention to the lack of preparedness for among those tasked with protecting my sites and the someone's Cox the founder of the art newspaper came to our London Studio in December twenty eighteen to discuss what she discovered Anna. The report in the newspaper is based on new research which was published in the scientific journal Nature. Can you explain more about that research. This team of scientists at Keele University in Germany really decided to look at the World Heritage sites. Those are the sites decree to be particularly important by UNESCO around the Mediterranean that were either at ten meters or below <hes> in relationship to see devil to see what would happen to them with the projected levels of sea level rise by the end of the century and what they came up with was pretty depressing. So what did they come up with well <hes> they modeled it. Modeling by the way means projecting sort of using mathematical a lot of data put together <hes> and <hes> the intergovernmental panel on climate change which is this huge supranational organization that sifts research into into climate change has a number of scenarios so the first scenario which is if we are all very good and we all stop burning fossil fuels <hes> and in the next twelve years <hes> we might keep <hes> the rise in temperature to one one point five degrees centigrade well then the rise in the water level in the Mediterranean will be about thirty six centimeters but the fourth scenario which is the one if we are completely out of control and <hes> the the ice caps at the polls continue to melt and melt faster than melting up <hes> you know all bets are off on your getting into sea level rise of one point five meters which means that <hes> the forty nine sites around the Mediterranean which are nearly all rather ancient cities and obviously in the old days people built their cities where transport was good so they will them on the C- <hes> very large number of them are basically had I did and <hes> for example Venice has completely had it so so let's talk about what which places we're talking about here because there's some of the biggest tourist destinations in Europe and around the Mediterranean on Yes <hes> there's venues the is Genera- There is Istanbul <hes> there's cartage the ancient city of Carthage from which Hannibal came <hes>. There's Ravenna Great Byzantine town with one word not not take time. It's got fantastic. Bison aches there is Ferrara Rene Saul City in Italy <hes> very high percentage nineteen of these sites or initially the next highest number is down the Dalmatian Coast Yugoslavia what you speed you saw <hes> then Greece <hes> but it isn't just the the actual world heritage sites territorial random so a lot of other places will also <hes> have great problems so this isn't something that's been talked about so far. We've been talking about you know damage to crops migration and so on but actually a major part of wells history is going to be attacked by sea level rise now in in the report in the newspaper what you've done is you've contacted a number of these organizations these World Heritage sites and you have asked them how prepared they are for climate change in its effects. What sort of responses did you get? Most these people never heard of this report. <hes> a small number sites said they raised it had a big problem Ferrara for example <hes> says that they've working with the European Union and they've got a big collaboration going <hes> <hes> Venice <hes> the the person responsible for the environment of the town council refused speak to me although I knew from your secretary did actually read the report and the reason he didn't speak to me because he knows damn well that the mobile barriers that are being installed dog which ten years late but we hope we'll be working from twenty twenty actually will be useless by the time we get to the end of the century because they would have to be up publicly to protect the city from sea level rise at which point lagoon were tiny into a stinking swamp <hes> so that's why he wouldn't speak to me Istanbul. They said we're worried about earthquakes but we're not thinking about <hes> water at the moment Pompeii <hes> the <hes> the city not covered by lava south of Naples said <hes> oh well one hundred years off <hes> we call t about that far ahead exactly I mean if you read this report is afraid to say quite depressing. It really reflects the complacency that we're seeing. everywhere about climate change in the sense that well a great example is the day that the i._p._c. announced this twelve year window that we've got in order to make radical changes to prevent global warming reaching two degrees that that same day six british newspapers had reports about two people on a reality television show having sharing a kiss on their front pages and no mention of this catastrophic news there is a widespread complacency and apathy about climate change that it seems to me is almost impossible to to engage people in in changing is that your perception about <hes> based on the responses that people people gave to the inquiries that you made yes i dare say most of the people we talked to actually do believe in climate change they hadn't actually connected with anything affect them and most people look to the ends of their lives not beyond that in some countries do that more than others for example thames barrier <hes> is one for example of people's planning well ahead because thames barrier which is having to be raised more and more frequently <hes> they're projecting the carry on defending london from being flooded until twenty seventy and they now have a plan for what's going to happen afterwards but that is exceptional <hes> and quite a lot of these places around the mediterranean in countries where people don't plan beyond following week it always makes me think of the famous famous cartoon in the new yorker which has a man falling off the empire state building and he's whizzing past the thirty sixth floor with a big smile on his face saying so far so good the the i._p._c. <unk> obviously are targeting individual people in that behavior but over the takes it it's going to take governments and corporations most to make the changes that will that will affect the issue and do you think culture lobbying about cultural in any way affect the way that governments respond to this situation well i certainly hope so <hes> that's why we published division three pages of the newspaper to this but <hes> i think it's going to need some major catastrophe i mean i think your skin happy very severely flooded or some something where where our lives are changed in that sort of essence since <hes> for people to get together then it it will need you know the whole european union act for example and <hes> we gotta wait for trump to be be what about whatever's going to happen we got trump is is a major a major obstacle in a really very serious damn vevey seriously damaging to the world's future that's right so trump has said that he's pulling out of the paris accords pulling the u._s. out of the paris accords which is massive supranational agreement that was is made several years ago and and other nations appear to have appeared to say that they would compensate for the u._s. but still the u._s. lack of action in these areas the biggest factor isn't it yes and not setting the right example and and and allowing people in whose interest is not to believe in climate change sale well you know if the president of the united states thinks that's okay if we could turn to venice and this is a subject you have a special interest in because we want chair offense imperil they will recent floods invented it seems to me enormously alarming how much are they related to climate change and how much are they related to other things they're released to climate change insofar as <hes> <hes> climate change leads to weirder and stronger weather <hes> they they happen because of a strong wind blowing up the adriatic which is rather narrow strip water pushing the water up towards venice low pressure systems lots of rain and and <hes> <hes> create what's called a storm surge and we'll be seeing lots more storm surges everywhere as a consequence of climate change so you get to things happening simultaneously you get acute events which are storm surges and you have the chronic event i i either slow rising of the water levels and what the keele university studied <hes> has done is it has mapped what would happen if you get a storm surge of the kind that <hes> is the average for that place coinciding with a projected rise in water level obviously people are aware that you get this thing could akwa outer in venice this happens periodically but was what happened in october think it was of this year significantly worse than and then a sort of <hes> sort of regular events where were water roy's is there i think the last one that was as bad as that was about ten years ago but the point is that any are quilter comes into smart square because it's the lowest lying part of of town and it comes into the basilica which is a thousand years old has most wonderful in late floors and it gets sucked up into the brickwork which is behind the marble panels on the on the walls and is is beginning to affect the mosaics aches which are you know nine hundred years old about these wonderful mosaics are being two four off because the damp is attacking them and we all assume it you know it's all been going on for so long it will all be okay but things which tipping point when suddenly things aren't okay hey anymore and we are reaching a tipping point with building the housing stock in venice already you know buildings being attacked and the tipping point will be affecting all of those towns that have been mentioned in this report in different ways yes but it will all be immensely expensive to try and compensate for 'em obviously the thing that makes venice so special is its exceptional nature but but cannes venice not be used actually should he is a sort of an example of what might happen to these other heritage sites can can the very clear effects of vanity situation be used as an argument for transforming these places attitude to let's see level roy's yes it certainly can there plenty of scientists where he invented in fact there's more been written about venues nord's wears problems i think than any other town run the mediterranean <hes> it's a question of getting people to work together but there are two do things have to happen the scientists have to work together but at some point you have to get authorities to take what the scientists are saying seriously that is the key missing link at the moment and what about our listeners what can they do do you think in order to draw this to to authorities attention other actions that can be taken by people listening to this i think if you're in one of the towns that's mentioned when he's mediterranean times you know find out find out who your tongue cancer raise for the environment <hes> get involved you know write articles if you're journalists awareness is manifest in lots of different ways you act okay and i thank you so much for coming to talk to smell this thank you for giving me an opportunity you can read more about this story and much more on this subject at the newspaper dot com app for i._o._s. which you can find the app store searchable magnifying glass symbol and search climate change on the website you'll find a range of subscriptions so you can read our content seamlessly across multiple platforms and you can subscribe for free to our daily newsletter for all the latest stories go to the art newspaper newspaper dot com and click on the newsletter at the top right of the page you can subscribe to the podcast wherever you normally listen to them and please leave rating or review on apple podcasts you can follow us

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Monocle 24: Culture with Robert Bound

28:08 min | 2 years ago

Edition 409

"Hello and welcome to monaco on culture with me. Tom edwards standing in for robert bound. Today's program us to take on big summer show. This year is by some this marks a return to take the danish icelandic artists his groundbreaking twenty three show the weather projects transformed the buildings turbine hold into a giant beam mm-hmm of sunshine attracting crowds millions turning listen from prominent artists into something of an art world superstar in real life is the name of the new exhibition and it's a large retrospective of his work today which often deals with ideas around whether climate change it's a multi sensory geometric experience as you enter rooms filled with fog fog moss and kaleidoscopes forming a colorful interactive show that works for families on some holidays as well as the regular art crowd something for everyone it would seem gene was it for our critics well. That's fine now joining me on the program today the writer and curator francesa gavin editor at large of the art newspaper jane morris hey welcome to the show. Let's start off by talking a little bit about ellison's relationship with with tight because i mentioned an introduction to twenty jio three show and that was obviously it seems like looking from the outside. That was a real critical moment but of a turning point for him. What what is it to do with the relationship with the institution itself. Is it just about his work reaching those little white or public consciousness. I mean i think it was also attending point for the tate itself self. It was a moment where that millennial projects of something huge made sense. It was the first really lodge scale interactive work that had such the broadcast global success that it almost change the interest on it was like instagram -able before instagram is that makes sense so i think like obviously obviously that enormous sector hence career in terms of his focus on what he was doing. I mean in terms of the content. I mean what's great. He makes a few references to that work in lifts going up and in the hallway outside. They've still got that wonderful yellow light that makes your skin go within your is funny. Which i thought was quite cute that he was kind of referencing talking that this exhibition was emerging from that heritage until this point. I suppose about yeah. Immersive are almost jane does it i i do you ever worry about that balance because i when i went to this exhibition took my kids running around and it is it's it's a it's a veritable playground for for three year road too much so as we need to be careful about striking is actually always been a debate around eliasson's work. I mean i think how foster was <hes> his a you. In a famous critic and writer <hes> has always been quite skeptical of that and has suggested it's more phenomenon affects and not in not in a very flashing shing way say so some people like cost in haller who i think followed a year later. There's a bit of a sense of art fairground or autism yeah so there's there's always he's been that suspicion. Other critics feel very strongly the other way and say that you know you go in and you look at the world differently by the time you've been through the exhibition for for me. I think there are some pieces where that is true and i think you so. I think i think he's patchy. I think he does slip into it. Sometimes i mean for me. What really comes across the expression is in fact not not necessarily it's interactive nature which is super appealing but how he's using ought not necessarily normal creative outweigh but as a platform to talk talk about other things yeah. I mean he's really an artist. Activist is empty in the tradition of i guess the gates or i way i it is a real sort. Take take over from the food and the restaurants to outside spaces. Whatever we think of that process francesca has he has he done it well. I i mean i enjoyed a marketing. Pretend i done in the same way that particularly when you're in the massive nature things things that play with your perception or really deep way so there's an amazing using piece where it's a droplet of water and you've got this flashing light coming on like a strobe very slow strobe in every single time strobe lights on the water's frozen essentially essentially in your is like a camera for a minute and a different shape and for me that was incredible and then there's another work which is you walk down big long hallway and you're walking through fogging. You can only see ed say colored fog about a meter in front of you and it's incredibly censorial so i- funding super effective things which are more. Let's say child orientated things that are more like look at my shadow look at a kaleidoscope yeah. This would make a nice picture doesn't do it for me. It was the things that played with your physical bodily sort of perception that i think we're super successful the walk through the the corridor folk i mean i find that almost stress j._c. Because i blind passage you in he pains to point out what you can do. You can look up to the ceiling which you actually can still see all reach for the walls if you become slightly <hes>. I don't know nervous about about saying the way interestingly. The context of any piece of our is critical. How the viewer is viewing in this case in the dark room at the pulse of light in your view is very much part of the experience of elbowing people i blundered into people on several occasions does that then become does that become part of the experience and so does the q. I mean waiting to go into an inst- i wrote a piece about this. One so the idea of queuing is actually a way of making people anticipate and focus on the walk more at cell phones you do it now. I actually think the way they incorporated queuing into spaces. You be viewing other works at the same time was really successful because my timing during q. or any cue i'm from london. I really don't like queuing that. You'll you'll get frustrated whereas this i think kinda did at least have other things for you to engage with while you're in this kind of waiting sign also clearly part of the artwork. Isn't i mean you are supposed to be not only. Are you thinking about the way it changes your own perceptions but you are supposed to be thinking of yourself in relation to other human beings are the visitors and seeing yourself as part of a community which is where this thing about the communicating which he doesn't his g._p._a. You do in berlin fits into it so he takes the idea of the the viewer competing additions idea of the view of completing the can take it a step forward. I mean to to be fat like some other artists of his generation. I mean is of a moment in a weird way but it doesn't mean some of the things aren't successful but maybe some of the more successful things are not necessarily as current walk because the current work really feels so focused on well actually almost day and research and basically redirecting all his attention to extension rebellion billion yeah. I think i mean for me. I thought the the piece i liked the most was also in early piece. I think it was from the mid ninety s and it was the piece i think it's cool beauty and it's a hose with perforated hose with droplets water coming down and just a light shining on it and obviously you've got this rainbow in this beautiful dark and rim and i think you know that sort of work i i like i like the simplicity and honesty of the materials. He's not hiding what he's doing. It's not clever in tricky. You look at it and you think yeah. We all knew we could do that but we didn't do it and people love that it was really nice seeing people in it but it was also quite nice just looking at it i point of view i mean even when it's an interactive piece in you're seeing children that your children wiggle around like drawer and play and actually i think it was quite it didn't bother me in a way they were kind of contained within certain spaces. I didn't feel like it didn't it impacted on your experience of the other one. I like the containment factor yes convenient but just to that point obviously for the tight. It's great and they insane well. Look you know this is the younger generation really immersing themselves in art and building positive experiences. It's clearly going to be gangbusters in terms of numbers but do they a another big institutions day need to be wary about going for mass appeal lever stuff with definitive sort of autistic and integrity the timing this doesn't of course but is again. Is that something that we need to be wary about facing the numbers ahead of anything else. Every museum needs to be catholic back yeah there there. There is a real pressure on museums to produce blockbuster exhibitions whether it's for revenue reasons which i think is a real danger for the particular museums m's in britain but i think also on the continent has been heavy cutbacks. There's always that risk and of course the other one is indeed to hit not just high visitor numbers but to hit divers visitor numbers so you know they all museums have to be careful of that but i think this is also an indication of changing idea of the museum can be actually i think is really interested in the definition finishing order museum can be which is quite interesting but yes i mean. We're totally aware of like how you impact on water. A show should be but i mean. I don't know if that's necessarily bad thing. I mean ought has become very mainstream. Entertainment part of tate modern is very much intertwined with the idea that people want to go instead of going to a movie. They go to title now on a weekend. I think that's kind of the same kind of breadth of appeal and i think that's actually a positive thing if nothing else if it means they go in the wrong room. I'm an experienced the douglas gordon downstairs or like a room something else that they would never see otherwise and i think that that's a successful. Let's say combination. We'll so i do think in a way way we but taking you'll cinema for a little bit further montezuma's likable plex the take away. You could have a show like that. You could have something i mean i. I don't think they have got something really heavy and dry on at the moment but i always remember when they did the damien hirst show an upstairs. They had endless bratty maps which could not have been a greater. It's a contrast. I have to be honest. I actually joined the her. Stay more but it was yeah. I was quite clear that the reti had been put on as as a foil for for for those who are not going to enjoy the hearst what's interesting in people sometimes talk about smoking mirrors. We've been talking about illusory perception challenging this sort of thing <hes> <hes> do you think that's a elian is clearly very successful and he's got a formula that works but he also likes to surprise and be playful. What would be the logical next step g thing for him autistic legionella. What did you think it might be the big surprise that it's actually not something gene huge and scheduling huge ambition something more more mondays demean or do you think like a lot of artists may be. He's <hes> you know. He's going to be less inclined into to surprise given. He's pretty well well. I mean everyone. Everyone is dangerously risk of kind of the the sort of middle aged sort of ideas dry dry up which is very well known. I've no. I'm not saying that he hit that has happened to him but you know he runs that risk like all of us. I think that it's hard to say with him. Because i think in many ways he's already gone well beyond the idea of the artists the artists the artists activist. He's talked about the artists as entrepreneurs that was quite a lot of merchandise outside which i i mean is is is directed much on divert and i believe that the that the you know the proceeds of that is going to support the causes that he's that he's he's involved and so he's already well beyond just the office making all i mean it really actually amaze me. The final room in the exhibition is focused like a college like crazy wall which just basically of research so imagery music clips quotes and actually i find it quite fascinating and i actually thought it was a really engaged after coming through all this kind of let's say more obvious interactive installations good instagram picture and you come out the other young she gets some serious like broad visual form of research almost it's like book level but in imagery and clippings talking about our relationships climb and ecological change and that's something that's so fundamental at the heart of his practice that i actually thought it was super successful because he was you know he's he's off icelandic. He's been timing ice and he's been watching glaciers melt and photographing it for the past twenty years is an literally seeing them disintegrate and obviously that's had a huge impact and the foot the norm logical relationship to light etcetera in that part of the world and that's a huge huge effect on him. Obviously he's trying to find different ways to make us have that feeling so maybe taking us through a foggy corridor look at things that are plainclothes kaleidoscopic in order to punch their and actually get across information. That's more difficult to consume. I think is actually a really successful. Things probably one of the most successful the things i think he's done. It's interesting isn't it because i was looking at the one the pieces i think you talked about way you could see shadows on the wall but actually women with a child ten round to one of the <hes>. The gallery assistance and said is this piece about light pollution and i was like ooh. I hadn't even thought of it like that probably was so i think you know. I think you're right. He stephanie. He's deafening corning courage in people to think about the environment and this is a really good way. I think to engage people and actually thought that was pretty good because it's rather easy or it can be a little to easy to come across a little preachy deducted with those messages but there are thought they were reasonably <hes> elegantly handled and you don't feel you're being instructed on the right way to do things going forward but i think that was francesca's points about the research i mean it's clear that he runs a studio like a research lab and and you get some sense of that from the thing the pieces on the that this kind of huge message bold on the wall so i don't think he's he's clearly trying to develop new ways of thinking new ideas. I'm just telling you both actually we're talking about. Which is the instagram ability of this is interesting. I suppose to to look at least career career trajectory and he was doing this stuff definitely and definitively before that was <hes> the main receiving but i'm sure there's a picture on an old my space just as such to kind of an and it's nice and stages <hes> is he. Someone who i don't know was he the ahead of his time or anything that how that's changed people's perceptions and people's engagement has it changed his work friendships with or his approach. Do you think i ain't ain't she thinks he's not ahead of the time. I think he's literally smack bang at that moment. When social media was exploding and i think his career has benefited from enormously the big tate son was hugely intertwined with that roy's of early social media and e mailing and also more than anything the camera phone so even when before necessarily sharing images the extent we were the idea of kind of breadth of cameron front access made it really much part of it so i think that it's not i think it's actually driven a lot of the successful in his career which you can really see in contrast to the let's say the more conceptual minimalist early works like ninety nine when you're seeing that kind of that kind of populist engagement with that i think actually was really driving force of them like okay. I've gotten audience who are interested in this and they're enjoying this. How can i make the most intelligent or poetic or beautiful statements about perception and the world through that well talking about perception just very nicely on franchesca. We've been talking about exactly that trickery array <hes> it's a big part of relations work of course and it does lead us nicely on <hes> to an exhibition on at <hes> museum moderna kunst in vienna moonwalk latin komo vertigo. Tell us more okay well. It's an incredible show and i think it's one of the best ways on this summer in europe which is a pretty good thing it's across two floors in the museum on its basic focuses on our part in connecticut and the idea perception from the sixteenth century actually the fifteenth century until let's say the sixty seven days so on the ground floor. You've basically got still works so a lot of things on paintings everything from peres beautiful kind of fake versions of rome and altarpieces that kind of seem to make your eyes go to like <hes> leagues bridget riley and like brazilian off but for me. It's the upstairs floor. Which is it's incredible. It is the best collection of really early installation based interactive work overseen alongside incredible engravings engravings of geo geometric structures which were really fascinating so one of my favorite pieces was tony conrad which he did this piece called the flicker from sixty sex so basically begins where you're basically watching almost like an old <hes> silent film and it same byways this might be a problem to watch those it disintegrates you watch a flicker flecha and the flicker gets quicker and quicker and i swear to god it is like you on hallucinogens wouldn't of course no but that's the entire thing that pew only an utterly the effect of your eyes looking out of thing giving you a physical effect and there were numerous different pieces throughout the expedition that had that kind of brain twist. It was fascinating. I found it really interesting. It's interesting. I guess we were still reflecting on this a bit with delays in discussion. You know this idea or something. That's a bit too. I don't know too much article too much superficiality or it's a spectacle ahead of of of artistic merit but certainly from franchesca says this really really proves anything buds and actually just because something is spectacular playful clever challenges your perception. It doesn't limit or in any way. It's it's autistic value. No and i think i mean you wouldn't say that about some say robert irwin nor james tyrrell who i would have said also obvious influences on <hes> on a liaison i i mean this quite a lot of <hes>. I would say this evidence looking at his work but also from things he's written about that. He's very interested in that kind of sixties minimal kinetic pacific perceptual work. He's a great fan of sell though i have never managed really properly to to wrap my head around and phenomenology but i think that's all this show sounds sounds like it's in the same area and what was really interesting reading the cadillac from the show they're also really placing it in the idea of the legacy of concrete art so the idea of tangibility and the body and and how actually linking it to nine hundred sixty s like philosophical ideas that basically if you because the world is always going to be in relationship to you and if you're moving leaving or your wear of the fact that you're positioning changes your experience of an object that it actually questions the idea of reality which i think is fascinating and you really see that connection between between. Let's say the body the work your physicality. I mean there's an incredible film which i really recommend looking online by brian depalma. We're very early of an expert that was at moma calderwood sponsored by and actually curated a show in response to this wants but it's basically people in new york in evening wear jumping up and down and staring airing out their fiscal relationship to a lot of the same works that are on show moonwalk at the moment so that was really fascinating this idea of like how do we as physical beings relate to what we're we're looking at and i think coming out of cubism let's say and the moving into something actually concrete that place your eyes icon and i think that's total connection between that that work is definitely a heritage to elephants. Don't exist with him. There's more color. Maybe a little bit more science. It's a little less sort of hard edged. I mean that's sixty stuff feels so a lot of it feels very brutal really serious to me like concrete poetry whereas strict isn't it yeah yeah. It's like you will look at us in your eyes. Will we'll go funny or it feels very much like math mathematician making odds whereas other feels more like i don't know a think tank which i <music>. I'm now you already mentioned this. This idea of works going back to the sixteenth century and i guess there will be people like my first glance hours like surely not it's <hes> but i guess that does speak to the fundamental almost very innate human interest in having your perceptions challenged also played with toyed read with <hes> did it did it easily bridge that gap between about centuries evolution but from what you say. It sounds like it's of course that tracks very elegantly. It wasn't done in a purely early corner. Let's say within timeframes. <hes> actually was quite elegantly done in terms of like fusion so you'd be looking at. Let's say pro oh s._e._o. Engravings from the fifteenth century or images of crimes included geometric experiments. I mean let the rene saenz was purely based on the fusion between science and so i think this really shows how our interests in let's say the geometric and the scientific county totally intertwined with ideas around philosophical on visual oh and perceptive but also i mean there's also some really great spiritual related work. There's a nice another nineteen sixty six piece by james whitney called lapis which is really wear and you're not allowed allowed to film it which is being in kaleidoscope with like a sort of an indian ragas playing in the background and it was like purely beautiful very of its moment but also incredibly ably well made in terms of the technicalities of what he had done to create this kaleidoscopic effect from modes of the little dots moving on a screen in front of you. It's really experimental talk. I mean i i loved it. I clearly loved this. Show the water tonight. I wondered. Do you think this is sort of show where make good prompt a broader reevaluation valuation may be of some of the protagonists work in particular some artists to prompt people to say we need to look at this if you like in a in a in a fresh in a new light and fresh in the same way when the david hockney released a book once that was showing the tricks of leeriness late renaissance painters in terms of how they created perspective in paintings which is incredible with him and i think that in a way this show really highlights the fact that art is a conversation that's been going on and everything is new and the concept of newness is not always interesting as the concept of developing compensation so i think it's always we always think that we're the press people to innovate anything so so you go to an elephant show now like wows the first time any of this has happened of course not all the experiments have been going on in other fields for many years. It's just about the re contextualisation relaxation of some of those conversations or looking back at things with a different point of view and i can tell you see wide thing playing with ideas of space and form can relate light to ideas of our partner different way but i think this definite desire to go to look at that often connecticut thing because with uncomfortable with our bodies because of relationships technology and the phone we're so used to being in ourselves and all that bubbles that we're looking for things that make us feel embodied again <hes> john willoughby making tracks komo convener three to tober absolutely incredible and you have totally inspired me. We're ne- inspiration businesses will coach asia jane <hes> you reminded let's see if we could go back to ellison <hes> of an again slightly sort of surprise me but you're going to lift the thanks for my is <hes> moving in history that you think sort of i don't know is it a spiritual inspiration. Should i was very struck. Its particularly in the room. <hes> <hes> where you see all the photographs of the glasses and i've seen this trait i think another of his works i mean his description of himself. As a young man and a young artist you know walking kayaking through the the icelandic wilderness taking photographs drawing it reminded me so much of the th- and he and he does have a relationship to <hes> northern romantic landscape painters. There's actually a reference in this show whether to the two round pieces pieces where he's taken the color palette from two works by caspar david friedrich and he's using it to show sort of ideas around light but as i say i thought of him and i thought as you talking about franchesca that relationship between art and science which have a very not all romantics but for many romantics it was a combination of people like get a constable doing cloud studies people considering how light changed and why it changed and obviously at the same time this pull towards the sublime beauty beauty which i think is a constant trait and lessons work. I mean i <hes> that we were talking about the way the show looks he clearly likes beautiful fool things that beautifully composed as a real sense of color on all these kind of traditional artistic qualities so i was very struck by that and i i saw basically looked at him and thought i better young man. You were passionate about the landscape as he is now you like b._t. You are pulled towards the sublime <hes> and i think it it's an interesting contrast to go. Look at some of the artists who he has directly related to one is friedrich and other is tana sadly. You can't see any friedrich's in london. As far as i'm aware aware the nationals won in the national gallery but it's so beautiful winter escape the winter scare just beautiful and it's not on show at the moment so so if you want to really go and see some amazing friedrich's you've got to make the trip to berlin or desseldorf i believe but we do have some wonderful <hes> tonners in the tape britain to go and have a look at it and he did a very similar thing with atanas work he did on <hes>. He took these color palettes and did work in response to them. I think it's interesting though to to look at those as a contrast there because i think he probably probably puts a slight pinpoint for me about how i felt about the show and i thought he makes you think he remakes you sense things but it doesn't make she feel in the way that those artists do. He's not an artist. That's about the in ally for mortality or any of these things. That's interesting statement. Actually i kind of agree with you. I wouldn't say i mean i had except for maybe in the moment of the fog colorado the distill passage or which we still i have a touch of the sublime yes but then i'm thinking what is the experience that i'm getting throughout the sublime and beautiful and it's an inner one actually rather than a lot of the other works six which i felt were more like i wouldn't say make my hop skip. I'll put it that way but i don't even know if that's their actual intention. If aims more cerebral engagement yeah i think i th i think he is at the end of the day for all we were talking about sort of fun fairs and whatever i think he's really quite a a cerebral artists actually but that's really really interesting think than to a fault journal most or is it over thought then almost do these thoughts. I think he's just a matter of taste right and i think that <hes> you know you don't you don't want all artists to be the same so so i find i think lisin the more you think you think about him. Look at his work and read about him. I think he does actually acquire more depth than might be superficially apparent but at least you don't have to read a press release to enjoy his work which is is probably one hundreds of kids. Love going to it or understand it. You can just enjoy it and you get so. I actually kind of really respect toss. You learn how to do that because many don't so so it's nice having worked that is just immediately engaging so that's probably another comparison where turner where it makes sense china's just as a nice big blow of yellow foggy color so and i think again yeah you can see how that would be something that has a combination of so it's a thought provoking very clever very well-thought-out play sense and she's got no no doubt in your mind that the expedition people should be tracking down is what's happening. I mean i'm a vienna's greats when you've got until i think towards the end of tober plenty of time no but star alway upper floor. I and you've persuaded me. It sounds like the vienna shea sounds fantastic but definitely visit fast cars via tate modern to the airport perfect that brings us to the end of today's program ellison's in real life is on that tape modern until the fifth of january twenty twenty thanks to my guest francesca kevin and jay morris until producer holly fischer. We'll back at the same time next week raw bound. You'll be in the chat but for me tom edwards for now escobar.

francesca kevin caspar david friedrich writer tate ellison Tom edwards berlin tate modern jane morris robert irwin london connecticut damien hirst instagram douglas gordon eliasson haller europe
The visual imagination of Steve McQueen

Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

24:35 min | 1 year ago

The visual imagination of Steve McQueen

"Hello and welcome to this april twenty twenty podcast from on diplomatic. My name is george. Mela and my guest on this program is john bird who is an artist. Writer curator emeritus professor of art in critical theory at middlesex university and the apron edition of the paper john rights by the artist and filmmaker steve mcqueen who had a major retrospective at tate modern in london until the gallery was suddenly closed because of covid nineteen mcqueen who turned fifty last year had an immensely successful career by any measure since winning the turner prize in one. Thousand nine thousand nine for his early explorations of the moving image. He's gone on to direct four feature films the most recent widows and twenty eighteen and and twenty fourteen twelve years a slave for which he received the oscar for best picture becoming the first black recipient of that award but mcqueen has by no means abandoned the gallery for the movie theater as you'll hear and has his recent exhibition showed before we got onto that. I asked john to fill in some background about mcqueen's korea before the nine thousand nine hundred nine prize. He was an all student. He was a chelsea first of all chelsea school of art and then he went onto goldsmiths college university of london in the beginning of the nineteen nineties student at goldsmiths from ninety to ninety. Four as you know the goldsmiths is the school that is most closely say. Cat who became known as the y. b. as young british artists it produced quite of quite a few including damien. Hirst so he comes out of a background of officials practice. He became interested in photography and film and video work at school and that became his medium expression. I think for quite a lot about at that period of the early nineties late eighties and early early nineties. It wasn't just the film and video offered to some extent to come different way. Don't for a new way of working. It was a break with the more traditional pass activities of painting sculpting so. He did that. He had a brief period in new york. Where east of the university. But then he. He's interesting that he's work was picked up actually really quite early on. I mean i think not only when he was college but very soon afterwards in in the early nineties he was in a way noted as one of the most original most interesting students coming out of that that goes miss background and he started making black and white videos one particularly which is cool bad which is nineteen ninety-three where he filmed himself naked wrestling with another nude male. And in a way that very early work indicated i think themes that were occurring throughout his practice because it is the the black male body and mail buddy which is the focus and has been the focus of his practice throughout over the years and is also course that interest in in the body and the body in extreme states. You know the exhaust general violence or eroticism is in a way of kind of signature style. You so another work deadpan. Which i think is probably one of his best known works. because he's also quite amusing. He took a bus. Keaton stunt where keating stands and look house collapses around him and his left standing a hamstring. Forty in the position where the open window is mcqueen repeats that so you also think through his practice get a constant reference to send them all those one of the film's In the in the exhibition a coup charlotte where he. It's a ten minute film of the actress. Charlotte rampling with steve. Mcqueen is stroking her face with his fingers and they're kind of coming very close to the eye that tracing the i lead the eyelashes and at one point actually who might seem to make contact with the eyeball and of course if you know about film then that's gonna make a connection to welles film Sheyanne onto do a slitting of the eyeball so there is that dialogue that goes on. I think which of course is the case with any artist. This all comes out of all influence will always find its way through into practice. But we steve I say there is a constant reference to both mainstream but also independent cinema and new in them all in preparation for talking to you today. John i was looking at some some interview material that steve mcqueen had done through the years and i saw him talking about back in the early days of syncing furstration about being unable to make feature films. I was quite surprised at that that even even quite early on in his career. I had always seen the use of film in the art gallery. It's been quite a sort of separate demane from the making of feature films. And perhaps i was my perception but to hear him. Enunciate that rather surprised me. Well i think in a way significant that he did say that. And i think significant that he's one of the very few to filmmakers who has made that step through into mainstream cinema. I'll use of film and video is quite different to filmmakers where different aspects oh the kind of materiality of film i mean has it to. Dean is another artist. I guess who comes to mind Who i think in some respects is similar to stephen her interest in the materiality of film yes and the process but is somebody who i don't think will she hasn't really tried to step into mainstream cinema and i'm not sure she'd be that interested in doing it. I think. steve. I was probably offensive. You have a much bigger audience. It's a very different audience. Yes and i mean that suggests that he yeah that there was a strong desire on his part to reach an audience and beyond that to communicate a message that is pushing things too far to see him as having a sort of sense of of something he wants to get across to mainstream. I don't think is an artist with an agenda right And i think his film the narrative very much comes out of the process of working with the material to some extent. I mean obviously not entirely. Because if you do go into mainstream cinema then narrative is pretty importance. You know you need to engage in. Hold your vote for for you know a particular period of time but even those films i mean with with hunger the very very long sequence of bobby sands in the jail talking to the priest and ninety is all happening in a way and that seems to me that very much an artist take on the kind of almost like a soliloquy or two personnel was like conceptual art work. In fact. i think you get it a bit. In twelve years a slave as well the kind of interaction between the characters particularly in the kind of violence that goes on. There's almost a sense of what happens to bodies come together in a confrontation sure. Of course they are carefully scripted. And i don't think he's somebody light. I know ken loach somebody like that. Who who just you know. More or less allows actors to improvise. I think he's pretty tolerant torio in his role but it still you know if we create this what will happen. And that's very much the kind of sense that you get you know with the with the autism films yes experimental in that sense even when he is apparently working in the mainstream. There's something remember that scene in in hunger way. It's a fixed camera for. I think a good thirty minutes and there's something mesmerizing and rather fearless on the part of the filmmaker. Isn't that yeah no absolutely so. I think you know the if you know about all his films in the kind of you know over the last twenty thirty years And you see mcqueen major movie one of the four movies Then i think you do get a sense of this is visual artist. Who's making a film at the same time being because he is an artist. Who is able to deal with the mechanics of mainstream cinema. Are you'll you all carry it along by by a very powerful narrative of course yes and so not not a toll contemptuous of narrative. This may just be my prejudice. But i often get the impression that video installations and art galleries don't really have a great deal of interest or time for narrative. I think it depends on the mak- i very much depends on the make but i think you can get a great deal of film and video. His film video work over the last sort of thirty years. Or so. you know which doesn't It doesn't convey that Gency that movement. That doesn't even seem to be that much interested in the measles and things like that it's more or less. It's almost like conceptual out in front of the camera. But yes he's his difference in that. That was the case. I think even with his you know with these early films. I mean he. I started introduced found in the late nineties where he was rolling these tin drums around st new york And you get the sound of the rolling drum coming through but and he had this you know he has an exhibition Leon the i see a of Kind of mini retrospective. Which was very early really. I mean you know still still relatively young in terms of a major major career given what he's achieved in spirit and looking at a piece like western deep which is in show that that's been at the tate modern into until it was closed because of the coronavirus design. There is a very important part is a descent into the deepest gold mine in the world. And i guess it's imaginable to have it as a silent film but when you hear the signed the rumble is in the squeaks and the the machinery it's a very very powerful part of the whole impression that makes isn't it it. May it does do that and it is. I mean i think. I taught in the piece about his very confess phenomena logical filmmaker that he's very interested in the tactility of seeing and you get that particularly western deep because when it's blown up from you know super eight to the large screen then you'll very also aware the pixel ation and you have to strain really both in terms of sound in terms of vision to kind of make out what's happening. These murky figures kind of emerging out out of the darkness. And the way in which the the soundtrack subtly goes silent as they stagger around and they stop again. So you you you know you do identify. Think very powerfully with the claustrophobia. The experience of going down you know over two miles in this cage to work the coal face to extract the oil. You know. I almost sort of felt your hands. Switching the hinge of seeing too. Because you're sort of on the edge of your seat looking looking at the the the image and it's yes i mean. It is a body experience as well as you know a a sort of the visual experience and again you've got bodies of mainly black men in a precarious place play an environment. Which is which is threatening which is hostile to them. Yes it's a place of restraint you know they They are entrapped in that. And the course behind. It is the whole complex. History of colonialism sexually goes to wise people do certain jobs and new though i mean in a way that's why i think he doesn't have an agenda. I mean i think an artist who was more interested in you know the kind of in the old various political message would have gone into that mall whereas i think with mcqueen to some extent you have to work it. You have to work to get the movie to get the to get the narrative but you also in a way to work through the different layers rule there because they're in in the narrative there in the missiles and van in the different component parts of the image at anyone sort of moment on the screen. But you have to kind of uncover it. You have to pick it apart. So saying he doesn't have an avert agenda is it is nonetheless possible to say that there are recurrent things which fired his imagination as a as a filmmaker i And i think we've touched on them. I think certainly you know that the that history history of the slave trade. What paul gilroy refers to as the black atlantic of the incarceration oppression and violence downto- to the body. I think those are very much there and of course that's twelve years. A slave is is the most obvious example of that. But i think also the ideas you know both the extreme of of bodily sensation. You know everything from. I said the early the two figures wrestling where you feel the tension the weight of the body sweat coming off the bodies the way in which one is trying to you know sort of throw the other one that sort of sense of interlock figures you get it with the touch of show rambling on the You get it with the The physicality of western deep. I mean you even get it in the you know the sort of something. Well of course in the one of of marcus who shoots his brother where you'll faced with this skull. This recumbent figure where the camera is placed shooting directly onto the the skull which is the head which is filling the screen with the skull. Going across it. you're constantly thinking. How did that happen what. What was the pain that was involved in doing that. How did he come out of it. Life how do i relate this to. The story is being told about the accidental. You know act that ends ends alive. So i think yes i mean. There are definite themes or a definite tropes definite images almost repeat but i think the body in pain the body of the body and pleasure of central to to his practice. Do you think that that steve mcqueen himself makes no distinction between his more mainstream cinema. And the films that you see in galleries. Does he see it as all of a piece. Or how does how do you know. He would characterize these different modes that he works. And because it's clear from what you're saying the recurrent themes and approaches in in. Both i think from you know from looking at the work. I don't think it's a complete disconnect in any means. I don't think it's a matter of saying okay. You know use project of making a hollywood movie. And that's what i'm gonna be alright and then now you know got an exhibition coming up. I'm gonna make three films. I think is like that tool. An i think so i would imagine An one could probably if you really studied the where you could see how the experience of mainstream cinema benfica's back into the making of this film. It's a two way process. I mean any kind of practices. The same person doing it. I think that also they're very different kinds of activities. You know an artist films. Even you know kind of quite big budget films. I someone thinks if somebody like bill viola. You know doing some some of his films. It's mostly a person with a camera and the subject you know you may use. The kind of others may help the sound technician. He's going to basically. That's what it is once. You're into mainstream cinema. You know a team. It's a big big team and you are part of that and you take you know mu- very much a kind of overseeing director or role rather than the intimate makers role that. I think you get us an artist. Making film made an oscar winning film even before you and the oscar. There's a lot of money riding on. Isn't it there said there are people who feel very much that they need to have a view on what you're putting out. Yeah yeah very much. So and i think equally full for women for you know like Tests the black filmmakers. Easter always been a tough cool. So you're up against those things as well. I mean i think. Certainly the fact that he'd won the turn. He had that reputation as you know as an artist who could do you know major projects that would have helped but even so he still a huge jump to go from that to you. Know a big budget. Production john before we finish. I want to talk by it. An exhibition which was running at the same time as the tate. Modern one which was on a tight. Britain is called year three. And there's a little bit different from the film projects we've been talking. Can you say something about that. And how you sort of see it fitting into mcqueen's is different. He spent a year with assistance going around london schools both in and great great to london school primary schools to take photographs of children in year. Three which is basically children who around about eight years old He said he chose that age. Because that's the point at which an anyone who's had children will no. This is the point at which children are starting to in a way separate from the intimacy of the family and stop to encounter the baroda world. It's like their horizons. The beginning to change the intention really was to investigate the diversity of one of the world's great capital cities through his children. And that is the thing i mean. They're all things. I think one could say about the last. I mean he's at the tape britain rather than tate modern It occupied the galleries. Which all the major galleries on the ground floor. In in britain it's photographs displayed in great form throughout the whole of of of the being galleries. in that respect they're all things about it but i think also make reference to aspects of contemporary conceptual photography. I mean you think of the role of the greed in contemporary art. You think of People like bernard hill. Becker who did those endless series of shots of jones industrial sites. Things like that so it has those kinds of connections there but it is about these children and their everything from quite smooth groups to large groups. Mostly they have a teacher or a couple of teachers and assistance in the group summer in school uniform summer just in you know the the everyday clothes that facing their face to camera so they engage with you. It's stacked high because know seventy six thousand reduce. There is an awful lot of pictures. But it's adult kim and the diversity over london. I think it is a powerful powerful statement. And i think it's a hopeful statement. You know what is the utopic side. -education education is for everyone and when it comes down to you know group of kids eight years old and a cloth. The potential is there and they all the same. It is a remarkable work. I say i don't think it's great art. In the way in which i think some of his other works so i think there will always stand say you know the cliche the test of time but i think as an imaging of londoners a truly cosmopolitan city from his youngest attack inhabitants. It is a wonderful look. Do you see the the infants of mcqueen everywhere. Not so obviously I think off to this exhibition more so because bear in mind. I say his last exhibition with the in the nineties the so we're major exhibition with quite a long time on for that. The are a lot of Students who of course have continued to going to investigate the moving image either through film or video now increasingly of course through the digital media. I mean have some students. Whom is you know. The digital media is the area to go if you want to work with the moving image in a way. That's a tough for future historians to plot the queen's influence but there's no doubt that he has had an influence and serve me as a wide public and and he's been able to reach through his step over into mainstream cinema a very very large audience so i would hope that people who have seen is main films might well don't know but anyway might have been encouraged to wonder what else is done and similarly those who you know just know him as an office filmmaker. Would i be better check out. These moves to there is a huge amount to explore some very rich body of practice. I was talking to john bad about his article. In the april twenty twenty edition of le monde diplomatique and titled looking without blinking. John's article is also available in the website at monte plus dot com. If you're a subscriber you can read every edition of the paper going back over twenty years as well as exploring other resources such as maps images the podcast archive and online exclusive content. And if you're not yet a subscriber this plenty of content online to entice you to become one and full details on how to go. Buy it in the words of the late. John birja why redel. Md to make sense of what's happening in the world behind the misinformation. I hope you'll join me again next month for another interview with one of our contributors and tell them thank you very much for listening and good evening.

mcqueen steve mcqueen twenty fourteen twelve years goldsmiths college university ten minute Sheyanne steve john bird twenty thirty years middlesex university oscar Gency st new york tate modern Mela twelve years goldsmiths wrestling Hirst bobby sands
Steve McQueen at Tate Modern

Monocle 24: Culture with Robert Bound

29:33 min | 1 year ago

Steve McQueen at Tate Modern

"Hello and welcome to Monaco Culture with me Robert Bound today. We're discussing tate. Modern NEW SURVEY SHOW on Steve McQueen. The British artists whose work mostly lives in the world of moving image and film although the ways in which these films are set up is often sculptural there. He's always message in the medium with McQueen. This near exhibition mostly looks works from often. One thousand nine hundred nine year. He won the Turner Prize till today so features in a way. Mcqueen's second phase. We're used to feature in his film it works. He now holds the camera or directed the action. But WHO's the gays? And who is the viewer? The idea of looking is key to McQueen's uncompromising works if you're is a voyeur during moments of intimacy things can fill dangerous transgressive inviting and the opposite. It's tough stuff for the texture. Death and ripe for interpretation is it beautiful. Need it. Be Join me in the studio today to discuss Stephen Queen Louisa Buck who is contemporary art correspondent for the newspaper and columnist for the Telegraph luxury and Ben Luke Art critic the Evening Standard and reviews editor at the newspaper and listeners might also be familiar with both of their voices as the Dream Team on the art newspaper. Podcast have both here lovely to the program having US Ben. Welcome to your maiden voyage on HMS. Monaco coach show. We'll be gentle with you. The seas calm here. It's like a mill pond industry so right and serene until we start discussing Stephen. Chris is the the transgression the body. So in your evening. Standard Review Ben. You talked a lot about the physicality of the camerawork. Mcqueen's wet but also as focused very much on the physical on the body. Talk us through some of your points on McQueen in the body. Well I think what really struck me as I was in. The show was just how sharply focused. It was on the body in all sorts of ways. In need of the body does so much as you have the very tight close up of McQueen playing with his nipple tweaking pulling pushing and then you have another film where a body falls from the sky endlessly in this Serene Sea of white but actually relates to this horrific incident from the seventeenth century in Grenada. Where McQueen's families from and so you have all sorts of bodies presented in enormously different ways but there was this constant focus in one can never ever forget the physicality of the body in the works. But also as you say the camera and McQueen's directing it such a physical process and that's such a palpable energy network towards which is focusing around there. Yeah and we saw in that first room with a kind of suppose body of source one of the most famous in the walls of the Statue of Liberty we fly around the aeroplane in King Kong Razor. There's something called for real about that. Makes the famous piece of sculpture seem vulnerable incredibly up close and personal? I think with McQueen's working with the Statue of Liberty. You see that she's got a bird's nest in armpit her robes grungy and T but there she is just like conic figure Ben so right I mean it is so badly because even with this form which is about another body you experience it with your body because the helicopters rounding around. I think Queens. They want to be like a mosquito of buzzing around starts with judges up and down this this helicopter. You have the sound of it and you experience it with your body the whole background the Panorama of Jersey and all the land behind around that sectretary swells around. This is a static figuring again as you do. And you feel very peculiar watching him very close up film through an fashion project or pulling away at his nipple tweaking it in caressing it's it's absolutely crops utters or indeed another one just adjacent to this piece which is his finger caressing. This very famous hooded. I Better Charlotte rampling with a red background or you see is finger pulling and prodding under the hood thing and he actually touches her eyeball at one point and there's all kinds of references to China doing a lot but all you can do is blinking. Seagal own eyes water at the thought and throughout this show there. Are these bodily feedings. I mean whether he's sending you plummeting three miles below the surface to experience the horrific life of a South African Gold Mine in the deepest mine in the world in epic extrordinary film of dante-esque sort of horror or indeed has been said the floating figure or you're in a booth with tricky as he goes into shamanistic chance but your values your up to the nape of his neck so you feel with your body while you're watching their bodies and it's often the ways described beautiful as you feel that there is you feel uncomfortable. There is a sense of voyeurism in a lot of these films. I mean. Let's talk about that. Tricky one and we're going to talk about tricky a little bit specifically on but was the viewing. What's it like being in that? It's not a small room. Must be seventy people you could. You could fit into that particular view viewing booth in tate. Modern Ben the fails like. You're you're watching feels that you're in the recording booth with them. What's that like? How how does McQueen get this sense of uncomfortable intimacy? I think you feel like the camera. Must be Roy under tricky knows so tightly cropped and then he is. The performance is almost violently intense. You know he's clutching the microphone. Is He's delivery. Girls some girls which is actually on an could blow back which actually featured the red hot chili peppers and it was actually not that great song in its final form but in this form is so primordial so intense and McQueen's ability to capture that performance. That sort of as you mentioned earlier in a sort of shamanistic kind of intensity. Tricky is almost possessed. But also the camera seems possessed so tightly cropped around Turkey's head and the prices of delivery of this vehicle that you are channelled into that physical experiencing you know and again you know so you feel like you are almost inhabiting that body these cleverly not sensation dizzy. I mean the camera stays very his crop things in his shorts. I read somewhere that when he shoots him. I think he's shot twelve years. Something like three and a half weeks. You know extraordinary so every shop. He said when he was early on. Yusup rate film it was expensive so you had to consider every shot so he doesn't flash his CAM around. There's not lots of clever angles. I mean it does change the cameras there with tricky the cameras pretty starting and it's usually the subject that the imbues it with the intensity so the camera sort of stays that like some witness. Of course it's not as highly subjective McQueen's brilliant at framing it but you sort of feel like it's tricky infusing it not McQueen you not really aware McQueen totally where the urbanism tricky and then suddenly negatives intent several takes of the song. They're incredible lyrics. What about absent fathers and daughters? And so there's a whole of subtext of that but then he'll suddenly he gives them almost like is running. He'll stop and he's kind of all the broad westcountry retake now getting a really good puncturing of that so it doesn't go into to sort of hocus pocus hyg yoga fee. He's always really objective. It really is about looking. Let's discuss it. That's interesting point and I think it runs through all of these works. How heavy is the hand of the artist? There is great intent in everything Steve McQueen does. But you don't get a sense well as you can you can tell me too. I think I don't get a sense of clever clever. I don't get a heavy hand of the evidence. Heavy hand of the artist on this. I think this is a really interesting point because I think he's super specific in terms of what he wants from what he does. He sets up each individual shot with such precision. And yet you're right. There's a set of element of light touch nurse but let's look at that Western film in the Gold Mine and I think this is a classic example of the formality that intense. Formality of Steve McQueen's work in that. He said he wanted to cheat on super eight film and the reason that he wanted to shoot on super eight film was because he wanted specifically to access the grayness the the physical experience that those people have in the mind the grayness of stone the gray. Nina's of the of being a minor. Now when we see it yes it might be shot on Super Eight. But it's not a project is projected onto the size of a wall. It's deeply great isn't it? It's it's almost but also the film itself it's woman set. The film can't really take in what's going on. So it's almost like the film come dematerialize as it goes depends quite geological. Texas as you need the ground and experiences of polling activists degrees Celsius also. He's brilliant with sounds sometimes it silently suddenly this deafening cacophonous noise drills. They're using this share experience of you. Get an inkling vague inkling but boy of acorns quite enough for me about what these guys experience on a daily on a daily level but the film itself Kennedy Material. Because it's not high resolution it does sort of melts and goes while the paints lean strange and then materializes back and see my God outline of a person drilling away and that'll bang into light. You'll see these guys doing horrible exercise to sort of decompress them off to being so deep these. It's never polemical. I mean that's another thing about this. It gives the experience of this appalling mine. Which is just basically. These guys are suffering deeply for a western civilizations greed for gold. Nobody needs cold but there. It is but he's work is is often political in the broader sense. But it's not a political in a specific sense. He's never polemically makes so much rich says starting that we talked about earlier the Statue of Liberty Film it could be so much about liberty. Crumbling America disintegrating the urban sprawl around his left up view based so to the business of the buzzing on sexual liberty. I mean He. He's very clever like that. The rigor that Ben Talks about somehow. Because it's a rigorously short. It gives a chance for all other kinds of meanings to pour in. I think really really thought broken. All of us walk away from this the different kinds of different plotline owning and. I want to ask. It's really interesting question. It seems that you'll saying that the medium whatever it is whether it be whether it be painting whether it be whether it be film and whatever standard film. You're shooting on. Whether whether she any of the mediums Steve McQueen or analysts might work on the on the equal of the human experiences trying to capture. There is an element of that that a- actually the the learning of art coney go so far. I'm just trying to capture this thing. These men down mind doing something which is nonessential then. Then I mean. He doesn't say that I just say I wonder if there is any of that because often often the medium kind of runs out of quality somehow in terms of of trying to capture some sort of meaning. I would say to certain degrees almost the opposite sense that I feel like the this is what I love about. Steve McQueen's films is that you'll never you never forget that you're watching film. Never Forget that. The quality of the film the properties of the film. And you never feel like you're in a self conscious of overly precious investigation of film. Yeah you know you got what you have is a kind of intense study of a subject but using an art medium to in its most intense way and really really drawing the most you possibly can out of it and I think I think in rather than sort of expecting the limits of media in a way I feel like he's pushing it so far in each case you constantly feel lucky is finding new things out really get this in the show because there are so many different filming experiences. You know you've got this amazing one of my favorites films. Amazing Film Ashes about this this young when when he was going to shoot curbs folding figures and also the other part projects outside onto the wall of tate in Granada Granada. He'll say what he also film this incredibly charismatic beautiful young man who was a diver. He just on the end of the boat I think because he like look at them and forty five and they became friends and their ears sunny on the end of the boat. And that's gorgeous footage on one side of the screen and then on the other side so McQueen makes you walk around. You can't see the whole thing at once. You have to literally two sided screen so that you've got this very matic guy voice over so you know things are not gonna go well because it talks. The voice over is contemporary friend talking about his death but McQueen short film and just kept look of it. It was only eleven years later when you went back into. Skied actually died because he just dogs. That went and got killed by the dealers basically So he thought I must've memory of this guy so you around the other side and there you have the sound which you hear when you're also looking at the Sunny Sonny watery side. The sound of ashes tune being built McQueen actually pay for the to be built. And it's a meticulous shooting of the construction of this concrete tomb. So you've got tremendous momentum Mori you are being completely led around. You are being made to go round the outside the screen you look at two very different sort of film qualities but you are so captured by this that you don't in any way think this is limited thing or will this is annoying. I don't understand what's going on you so brilliantly orchestrated but with such deftness Benz quite right about the rigor that because he's a rigorous but it's also lightness of touch the best line. Drawing you know looks completely effortless. You don't know that you'll being told this absolutely captivated my concentration threshold in film works even Remotely Bore Me Zero and you are absolutely captured in this work. There the works themselves in the fact that is you say McQueen makes you go the extra mile to investigate things that you want to go there all of them. What about the exhibition design at Tate? Modern for this particular show. How has that? How's it set up thinking about that work in particular that work is ever thus I think I wonder what about the Charlotte rampling when they're on all right? Projectors there's something architectural sculptural rigorous he's made he's down to the kettle design. Everything I mean. He's he's absolutely interviewed. Back in data tape recorders when he wanted to send in the cassette tape so they didn't want it being out there without takes on June. I mean he's regarded controlling about absolutely this is decades ago. But you know he's very so it's free it's reform you know you walk around but some of them. You have to like Western deep. The mindfulness talking about that has very particular screenings. Standouts on you actually see the countdown. The minutes reading time other works of free standing of the works. You have to go in and look cutting special special views. But it's not chronological. It's very carefully placed out. You can come in either end. I think. But you know it's it's advisable to go into the way that the first entrance and it's it's it's a piece of sort of ambience sculpture kind of in and of itself. There is a sculpture also in it which is one of the least successful country which is a bad. A bad actually made for reading jail. The whole project around Randolph Scott. Wild and he made the prison bed with a gold mosquito net hanging over it was just was completely in Congress. Didn't you said reviewed looks like another artist's work has been dropped in I think McQueen when he makes objects it's not successful. I'm with you on that and I actually Who also questioned. There are two words and they're really interesting works but they are very different with in McQueen's language and they are where he uses found material as opposed to She Tina material material himself. So one is good. Once upon a time and it easily these images that was sent up to space by NASA. And they'll still in the voyager spacecraft now traveling across the universe and then you have a soundtrack which is speaking in tongues. You know this sort of indecipherable language. And then you have another piece which is about pool Rogerson in state and US state surveillance of this major African American cultural figure and that that is then credits and it is simply a sequence of Redacted state memos that were sent in redacted drinking game to that one that's five hundred law every time they redacted just do a show. Yeah like may make it out alive if you dad and both of these pieces. I thought very interesting. Yeah looks lots of scope for investigation. I googled lots off drugs but at the same time I felt there was a sort of separation of in the language which made me pine for the works. That aren't show. You mentioned that it was often one thousand nine hundred nine thinking you know. We talked about the body earlier on. I long to see bad. That one thousand nine hundred ninety three to wrestling figures really important piece. He's breakthrough and also deadpan work. Which was famously shown in the Turner Prize which he and I wondered when I was in the show where they're actually just a show about the films would've done it would have made this. An absolute must see five star. You have to see this show as it is. I think they're all those. These found image works are less successful. They just feel to me to be it. In terms of their language they just not so affected. I agree with you about once upon a time the the NASA space probe images. Because it's the least slides going on of how we want to project how certain points of view in American point of view of certain era wants to projects. You know life on earth to to an alien species perhaps and it's all positive lovely and you can see the rest of the shows accountable to that off the talking tons and I agree with that she I think the end credits the robeson piece I mean. Of course it's impossible. You're not going to sit there for five is not conditioned to forty two hours of audio. Also it's quite annoying because the actual reductive dot com schedule a bit too far few able to read and the voice over doesn't actually correspond to the documents that you're seeing and you have to sit down and kind of recalibrate yourself to that and I find that it was quite annoying and then not instantly viscerally kind of impactful and an engaging as the films but I thought it was a really really powerful piece. Actually I love the fact that these documents seized crew d redacted documents of decades of Paul robeson being souped being surveyed by the show was quite extraordinary and actually it spoke so much about state power about surveillance about subjugation about this poor wretched man going about his everyday business. Not being so I just because you happen to have us out of Kilter with the mccarthyite times and I thought it was a really powerful piece in the new. You Never GonNa see. It was impossible. And it's still ongoing. I kind of like that because it's not it's not an easy consumable is an open ended. Art Work that you do kind of sits and go into a reverie about so. I agree with you on time at actually liked that piece although I did miss the early works well but I mean. Hey they're gonNA pop up again in other films other shows we talking about difference between sort of found film and the stuff that McQueen's made himself interviewed him a couple of years ago. We're going to have a short clip couple of minutes of him talking about He. He was promoting a feature film when I spoke to Him. Obviously the very well known equally successful other sort of half of his career not that he sees it that way. This is Steve McQueen in conversation a couple of years ago when you started making films suddenly I suppose a lot of extra jobs. A lot of extra things go added onto making short films. Thomas Dane in a new gathered from my life. I'm art works and that's the difference. Did they feel different things when they're in cinemas they have a different audience expectation attached to them in London? Narrative was not because both narrative on ship for me. Either but I would describe as one. His poetry is perjury and the film's narrative the arm boosting things for both saying them differently. One is fragmented fractured concise as far as poachers concern and the Amazon. Novas novel survey the very different using the same devices but saying things differently. T's a different Paul. He'll brain than myself allies myself and I get on with things. You didn't do them or you get you get on with. It was true again. I think that's the most important thing might Miami working not my sort of strife. Only striving is all about the truth. That's my main sort of brain function. Not Sort of how. Wha what in fact all those how how who. Why won't that's my main brain function for me? It just about dealing with as a person living today so many things come at them. Come out your other as a black child. What happens often? The you become political innovatively age because you are Oscar Christians in very very early on how who want at the very earliest days because of the environment you're in so it brings things to surface is ready for people to have such an August career into related always regarded as separate fields as fine art. And filmmaking in you aware of reputation that you have is something that gives you gives you pleasure. Is it something that you ever think? I don't think about it because you're critic you think you say that and it's fine. It's good to hear but I don't if I'm not conscious of that I just do things because I'm an amateur and I mean that I'm a very happy British amateur because as far as if I become so called off big on professional then. I'm done having done that. Makes me learning to sort of explore? So I'm not tall conscious of that fact in in a way I mean it's nice when people get accolades for certain things then people's evolving? Oh well he's this. He's he's he or she is the other but regardless of that. Oh you don't get that. It doesn't really matter because you're on my journey on my path. I'm trying to sort of work things out through work. I mean tomorrow. No guess. Law designed immense collection. I don't know anyone should be able to do anything they want to try to. I've I've always just tried to to be truthful to why and that's it so if it's a appear like this well great but I'm not I'm not conscious of not believe don't focus on that it's about the work w k the work and the story fact so about the work you've seen the films you've seen the now where the men's collection that was me getting playfully slapped down by. Steve McQueen. Very well dressed. He's yeah he he's and he's really good interview he was he was on expensive. Format Day. He's good stuff. I wonder can you one last question both? Ben I feel I want. I wonder if Steve McQueen kind of an artist his hiding in plain sight. Sometimes we know very little about him. He's not an artist kind of on the scene like some are just this show kind of open offer give you the key to kind of lock in his head or does it need to. It is a very powerful expiration of part of Steve McQueen. I mean that's the brilliant thing you know. He's he's tight. Show offers glimpses of the the real greatness of this body of work. And you know I. It has now been thirty years worth of extraordinary. And you know. I think it's I think it is an essential show actually even spite what I just said about. Not Quite being a five-star show but I urge people. I think I like the fact that they were the that he's an enigma. Still as well and I think that is central to draw up to do this. Yeah Yeah with every interview everything you Kinda chip away at that. I mean it's John Lewis. I agree you know it's it's the word mid-career but you know he's got an awful lot of you know we hope many years ahead of him. I mean when he was when he was an official raw artist. He made a whole set of postage stamps. You know he's he's. He surprises you whenever he does something. That's really great. Which usually you think. Oh yes fits into his work. Who's GonNa do and I think this this is a fantastic so you know a gauntlet thrown down to wonder what he's GonNa be doing in the future but also really admire what he's done to date and if there's some great works missing well I think there's some great works to come so that would be. That's exciting isn't essential show. And he's a really one of our greatest artists. I think so vigorous. You both have mentioned that in in all sorts of ways in all sorts of answers but there is such kind of focus so you can tell from the interview that he gave you this then I mean. He does around the show he chooses. He shots really Catholic chooses the film stock to do exactly what that film should do. I mean he really knows. There's nothing left if it's left a chance it's because he it to be left to chance if a camera's trying to focus on on on a light on a light source in going backwards and forwards randomly. It's because he wanted to be doing that. Random he said nothing nothing. Nothing left to chance. He's a monster I think if he's if he's craft many others too. Many artists are really good at the form bit but for short on the content bit more the other way round with McQueen. You really do have such Riga. Not just in the way that they look and and the process that they're making but in the acute focus on the subject you know that that balance a former content in his work you know. It's so impressive. I think but he won't give you a subtext. He never tells you what the content is. That's the thing so therefore you know the content is there in abundance but it's for you to extrapolate. Does that remind you of anyone? Because that's what we're doing next. This is where we let let our listeners into some of the kind of critical tools ease some of the some of the things you take off your bookshelf. When you're writing Your Review Louisa. What have you chosen? It's really difficult to make Steve McQueen Belykh anyone because he just isn't he really is has influences. You can see sat not as being important to him. Warhol for example whatever but you know he is who he is but I looked though I came out of that show feeling bodily in weird and sort of discombobulated I kept thinking Francis Bacon. I kept thinking I mean totally different era different medium physicality about the body. I mean you know Steve. Mcqueen doesn't present as queer but they can make very much square. Oh but it's actually not about. You'll you'll predictions about sexuality about broadly. Bacon said I want to make the works directly on the nervous system and boy Steve McQueen work directly system so I think that sense of looking and feeling and being really there in the kind of the difficulty and the constraints spaces the boxes that the kind of minimal backgrounds. You know this whole sense of of really kind of gig wrapping load the word human human condition but you know there. It is with Bacon and there is to great extent McQueen Bacon also loved film and loved photography. And they're very cinematic. I think he's paintings also just about what? Bacon did with paint how he made paint all these weird things self taught. Interestingly McQueen's not talk but I like I just described themselves an amateur dot constant curiosity and I feel that he has in common with Bacon to the sense of Bacon trying to experiment. What paint could do what it made do likewise with McQueen different sorts of film stock whether it goes to panic in that one alumina wet where he lives up by television screen? Instituel camera trying to focus or whether it's a granular super. Eight with the western deep mind. You know he's always or the red red focus of the Charlotte. Rampling is all goes a bit voyeur in a bit sort of Red Light district all this confidence to be able to make film stock be something plastic aesthetic but carry all that meeting. I think they can do the same thing. That paint ejaculate spurts well. There's really fine veils the way you things are blurred to imply motion. All these things flesh skin I could hang on tweet. Gotti gave good tweet really paint a tweet coat your tweet but yeah there. Is that sense very much? I think you know they're totally different. Artists ears different everything but I do see some analyses there so Francis Bacon Ben. We've chosen chosen tricky. It was old because I don't necessarily think it was the best film in the show yet. It was the film. Mike went away thinking about constantly. Well so's hunting in mesmerizing. And and most hilly senator even though it was so documentary again. Mcqueen's brilliant these to these Dualistic qualities that he has but yes in and it prompted me to go back and listen to Maxine K. That grey album from nineteen ninety-five with your calls made in a similar period to win. Mcqueen was finding his language. You know and what an album. My word one is You know that I was a student in nine. Hundred Ninety five and it was a documentary soundtrack to our lives so many of us in that period and you think about that period in Bristol and portishead There dummy the year before and of course massive attack you. Tricky is a member of an an extraordinary fertile and dark wonderful period for purchase music. Yeah it's something that was was never It wasn't trying to be like anything. That came before seeing tricky. I saw the Royal Festival Hall. He got more mate with southbound on the South Bank anyways next encased album is that time I mean. He was mesmerizing. I was quite far. Back wasn't so much picciotto rather respectable and seeds but I mean he absolutely held voice in the way that he thinks. He's a great big tokes in Queens and indeed also during the concert is slow. But you do feel that you're getting stoned watching him in with him and he takes into very strange places without voice film being so deadpan was so brilliant. Mcqueen's film because he didn't need it tricky. Gave it all to you anyway. Beautifully said that was tricky. I our which was called. Maximum K nine hundred ninety five. Everyone will be putting it on now. Don't WanNa go home from this. Exhibition is and Louisa chose the work of Francis Bacon. I'm thank you both very much. Indeed for such expert insights into the Steve McQueen show which is on at the tate modern in London until maybe eleven. Thanks again to my guest today. Louisa Buck and then Luke. We'll be back at the same time next week. Thank you very much for tuning in.

Steve McQueen Ben Luke Art tate Stephen Queen Louisa Buck Francis Bacon Charlotte rampling Statue of Liberty Paul robeson Queens tate London Monaco Charlotte Monaco Culture Texas King Kong Razor Chris Evening Standard Turkey image works
Grayson Perry on race and class in the US

The Art Newspaper Weekly

59:54 min | 11 months ago

Grayson Perry on race and class in the US

"We cannot is sponsored by Christie's visit. Christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction house in Seventeen, sixty, six auction private sales online. Anytime. Hello and welcome to the weekend. I'm Ben Lou this week the artist. Grayson Perry has a new exhibition document to series about the united. States. What can a British artist broadcaster to tell us about the food lines in American culture? As well as Louisa Bucks interview with Grayson, Perry in London. We have my conversation with ROB store the author of a huge new book about the painter Philip Guston and in this episode is work of the week. Margaret Carrigan talks to the artist's Jacoby satellite about Edward managed masterpiece today Genet Alab. Before that a reminder that you can sign up to the newspapers free daily newsletter for all the latest stories go to the newspaper, dot com, and the link is at the top right of the page, and while you're there, you can also sign up for a range of other newsletters. Now GRAYSON Perry. This week opened an exhibition at the Victoria. Mirror Gallery in London is linked to history part documentary series Grayson Perry's Big American road trip, which is broadcast on Channel Four in the UK this month, the Artis traveled across the state on a motorbike that he designed spending time among various communities and these meetings inspired the works in ceramic and tapestry that form the show we went to the gallery to meet him. Grayson. The show's called the most specialised relationship about Britain's relationship with America or about your relationship with American to the point because it's based on the trip that you made last year in two thousand and nineteen last summer to America. To make the series, it's coming out on channel for the twenty third of September Grayson Perry's big American road trip wasn't that you wanted to go to America and use it as you'll subject matter. Well I love America of travel. They're moving anywhere I. Love doing a road trip on a motorbike which I've done before. And I've always been interested in the cultural. People now we setting people so pooh-poohed. And I kind of go something there seems to be bubbling along for quite a long time and it's A ton of territory I liked to explore. Can you define culture war in your terms I? Think it's when people get very emotionally invested in relatively niche cultural phenomenon I. Think Evolve Dan kind of grand scheme of politics they get better down in single issues. Some of which very huge say race. But a lot of the time it's over little things and I think they can former they've they distract from the grand kind of sweep politics often like I think. In America to kind of elephant in the room is kind of class. Somebody was interviewing one person. Who got edited out of the series but he said you know people have got a list of things and if you only agree with nineteen from Europe Fascist. which kind of summed up the kind of The way the coach will work. If you don't agree with people one specific theme, then they will then you are bad person it Kinda nibbles away at nuance and of course, the Internet is the perfect delivery system for a cultural. So you went to American you made three programs and roughly themed on on race one on the kind of social divides between American various issues within America in in the swing state and then these coast elite. So you zeroing in on these particular issues. When you're making a TV series, you have to have some kind of logic exposed to and race being the most historical and brutal and important conflict. In America an issue be we we couldn't go to. American. Do that. I mean people might say well as a white guy, guy into America. Off. that. Now, of course, after George Lloyd's death and the butlers massive protests because you know it was a year ago that you went to. American, actually the race program is a pretty positive. I, mean you go to Atlanta you talk about how how affluent a large proportion the black population are you go to high end black colleges and theme? Obviously there are underlying issues and precious but you know you a year ago in America in the south talking about race was quite a positive light that you gave. The thing we wanted to you know I think we I think often the subject of race comes up is Rio down you know it's always about violence and crime and racism, and we wanted to make positive program. Time obviously of stuff is gone down since then but I don't think it necessarily negates what we talked, and of course, we deal with all the share in the program. You know many of the conversations have pre. So crunchy 'cause I said to the people. When I was interviewing and I want. To have the conversation you have when there's no white people in the room. But would you reconsider now off the Butler lives matter protests death George. Floyd. Thinking maybe me as a white guy going to America's black people about race. Maybe that's not quite what I would do in retrospect. A program about the kind of cultural social issues in a minute it'd be pretty ossified didn't. Make Program about that can you imagine if I'd have gone made three par program about the coach war in America not mentioned race that would be pretty weird or involves somebody else I just I'm just interested now in the way that the whole aspect has changed so much in the last year did you did you the program so? We, put in archive footage from. So what's happened this year and we sweep the voiceover by in terms of the meat of the program is not changed at all. So what do you discover what we were kind of discovery that you made like he's going to investigate in the cultural faultlines in America and with a view to look into the UK saying this could be happening here as well. So what what did you? What did you bring back? I think the headline is is that We have. Each of us is an emotional core in who we are, how we fail how inculturated feeling from our family background from a country, our education, and then we spend a lot of time looking for things to confirm that. So, and the Internet is a perfect of system to deliver personalize bits of information that will confirm how you're feeling. And I think that is the number. Is that people want to feel validated in in how they feel whether angry about something or wherever they love something and. Online social media coach at delivers perfectly curated little menus to. The, you're never going to change your mind you're gonNA become entrenched in. And I think that that's what's happening and and we talked to kind of coach warriors on various sides. Of the divide in the program you Nevin people. They operate. In a kind of sublime bubble of. Not Talking about the cultural elite. The Martha's vineyard people seem quite hard on them. You seem to be quite quite critical than we'll let very privilege very well educated on the whole they're quite wealthy but I think that this this thing that if you vote Democrat using s enough somehow and it's nothing to do with you whereas I think that. They took their eye off the bowling of the complacency. Off The people on the left they often focused because that were very well educated. They tend to get. They think rationality all about rational until they reach the of rational scientific fact based way out of the mess. And the thing about the cultural it's not really to do with facts about feelings know the lots of crying in the in the in the. You did in the State of Wisconsin with people particularly in the rural of the farmers, the sense of people who the bikers for trump welling up all over the place. There's a lot of feeling sloshing around. Me My interview banks, trump, and this woman she burst into tears just talking about president trump because at a very. To us, it seems bizarre that someone should be that moved by the idea of this kind of slightly. So this this kind of horrific food I think at a at a level of communication. He's the man spouting in the bar in the language of the peace base, and what he says is irrelevant is how says it and this is what? The left doesn't understand. They don't intuitive very well, they don't understand how to talk to the electric they know what they want to say and it. All sounds great. But how they say the kind of. The look the passing the the syntax of the person. You know I, it seems bonkers to us but. He's incoherence is one of his kind of electoral benefit. It does him good. So you go there you gotta listen formation you made in three programs, but you're also making R. You are predominantly an artist other than TV presenter or do you see yourself now in a kind of Double Act Way? When people ask me what I do I say now say minority artist standard broadcast because I enjoy doing both of them and I quite like having those two than. Being on the whole is Sola truncation and it's nice to do something though it seems ironic in this prison times I like to do something that's communal. And out and meet people and I'm good at it so I'll do it. But being you know mean. Even while I was in the states to doodle sketch things down that what I wanted to make in response to experience there, and that sorta exhibition is I mean you've got these enormous tapestry very large, very expensive obstruct painting, which is this vast map Manhattan laid on its side and looking extremely phallic with a with an abstract expressionist painting, overladen it all in tapestry. These various gorgeous looking parts and another the American journey, the map, and that was the only piece that we actually see you making on the television series is actual American, Journey. Could you talk a bit about how these works emanated from your trip around America? Well, a lot of Riady more reading. For this series normally, we researched that the theme wherever I'm working on but I did a lot of reading in in the lead up to this area. So I had this kind of Bank of of opinion and knowledge of self working on and. I wanted to use it and then I've always wanted to have a big show in America. So we thought we would. A bunch of work at freeze New York, but then that got canceled and so I had this group of works. All about America and so the show happened. It's coinciding with the broadcast of TV series. So it's worked out quite well, and you do tease out themes I mean you got the the warhead pot with with the trump figure coming out of the sea and these missile-shaped actually of the silhouettes of slaves, the slave ship. So you've got this kind of trump race point you've got the Liberal Papa slogans I mean they do political bent to them as as the oil works albeit be at an oblique angle. Yeah I mean I think my so modus operandi being principally is I want to make artworks the I live look. I WanNa make something. Is Comfortable. The tapestry might be sort of stinging rebuke of a certain section of the metropolitan lead but you know in the end like a nice bath fabric on the wall and the same with a partner because I think. That has. Operates in an interesting way for me in. A it makes it more comfortable in therefore, people will want to buy it and put it up in their houses. Be itself suggest that for a lot of creative people. The political content is decorative. And that is for me. That's quite an AG statement in the idea like the pole I made co Pale virtually is about the idea in a very directly that. You it's part now. So many artists now that call themselves activists, it's a style like abstraction was a style to be activist is now a style of art you do and it's that edginess that is the kind of aesthetic that you may well feel strongly about the issues that you're making the are now. If you were to define a lot of the work that's being made at this point in the twenty first century. It's activists aren't even at this certainly say, no good on television. You're talking about the end of the programs you're saying, we need to have empathy or saying in the right. With with the race saying, we need to have more conversations you'll be genial about it, but you still making political points I think to change things. Yeah. Yeah. Of course I am you know I have opinions about these things a I might call my if you ask me where I was politically these days I think what's the most mischievous thing I could be probably a radical centrist. Is that idea of it? because. We live in such polarized simplistic terms sometimes it's. But. Yeah I. I suppose I am an activist I was going to call one of my stay shows Middle Brow activists. Because, you've said, I think in the press and the pause she said, don't don't do useless that no one wants to see. Don't be an activist go join extinction of go go sign up an activist group, but in a way you. Can do things that. Nice. Don't make it some of Claude hopping installation that no one. We know this going to end up in a storeroom at the back room of tape forever. So in a way, beauty is your weapon I mean the most. Part that you make in the show is the one that has the American flag made up of weapons missiles low goes. You know it's all kind of horrible underbelly of America makes up the selves. Let's put the most gorgeous pop I set out to make you know using at the template of Oriental Ceramics I set out to make an exquisite object. Yeah, and so that one is called Persian Korean and Japanese influences and I wanted to do apart that was highly crafted and very, very kind of at first glance. You think that's a really lovely thing and then you know the the kind. Of symbolism of it is very relatively dark and by but that's how I operated from day one you know based now I had the skills and maybe a bit more subtlety to do it better. But that yeah, I'm very pleased with that word off optimist really because I think the end hulas programs, you end on quite a staring note, and also in this exhibition, you have your killer weapon beauty but you also have that pot the American journey, which is Kinda positive part. Yeah. Turned mean if I think of the cultural influences on me particularly music for instance I love country music and The literature that I've read the films that T. v. a lot of the art. That I love and an influences me is American. One of the things we talk about in that first episode of the TV series is demographic shift in how About the fact that within a few decades, now America will be majority non white and trump might be the last hurrah of a certain saw politician you he he's the kind of death throes of right wing nationalist white supremacy away ever. So I do feel demographic shifts will will do a job hopefully and make America truly the melting pot that is. So you see this show in a way is a celebration is not just a critique and I love America. And now there's a play on my rack places called I. Love You. I hate you because very early on I, remember me and my wife we did a big motorcycle touring ninety-one across the states for two and a half months. And I remember thinking then we were sitting in some calf and I really do the beer and the woman said Oh afraid. This is a dry county something when America you Riva. T. Total. Laura drunk. There's nothing this way. And it got a summed up my feelings about the USA, the land of extreme. Extreme crassness big stream beauty as well. Thank you very much based. Thank you. Don't you. Buy Some Perry specialist relationship is a Victoria Miro Wolf Road London until the thirty first of October and Grayson Peres big American road trip begins on Channel Four in the UK on the twenty third of September. I talked to Rob, store about Philip Guston in a minute. But first, here are a few of the top stories on the newspaper's website this week. Three months after accusing the institution of racism and Activists Coalition of current or former employees of the Solomon Art Guggenheim Museum in New York expanded its critique of the museum this week and demanded that director. Chief. Operating Officer and chief curator resign as Nazi, Kenny reports in a statement addressed to the museum's board of trustees and stuff. The group called a better Guggenheim said the Richard Armstrong Elizabeth Duggal and Specter should be removed if they do not step down the document costs or the board to take urgent action by pursuing the three resignations a spokesman for the museum says it has no comment on group state. Meanwhile, Margaret Carrigan reports that employees of notable us in UK galleries are anonymously airing experiences of racism harassment and discrimination through a submission space instagram account coup canceled art galleries. The pages published dozens of the of allegedly power. Emil trade since he was started in July amid similar close by accounts like a Guggenheim. And finally after doggedly continuing me plans while the majority of other fares been canceled this year, the organizers of feerick fame Paris finally conceded that the forty seventh edition of the modern and contemporary fat will not go ahead in the French capital's grown Palais next month, and he looks at the announcement comes as Corona Virus Casey's Roy's in France and new travel restrictions are imposed across you pleading invaluable to Paris. You read all these stories and much more at the newspaper. Coma. Corner APP for. which you can get from the APP still, we'll be back after this. We cannot is sponsored by Christie's this September Christie's Asian art. We returns to New York Series of eleven, live and online sales representing the continent explore five thousand years of our spending China India Japan Korea and more with highlights including candor and sculpture from private collection and Ching Dynasty Porcelain from the prestigious alsdorf collection. From rare while furniture to modern paintings by pursuit a Sky Tom Brady, and Jehangir CEPA Valla treasures from every category of Asian wait to be discovered. Browse. Sales. Explore Christie's virtue calories and video in person learn more at Christie's dot com slash Asian. Now a reminder that you can catch up with series. One of the art newspapers other focused a brush with featuring interviews with the artists. Michael Armitage Jimmy Savile Shan't Joffe and Rashid Johnson on apple podcast spotify and now on Amazon or wherever you're listening now. We'll hear from to Kobe settled on many soon. But I Philip Guston this summer, a major survey exhibition of Guston's work with g to open at the national. Gallery of art in Washington before tore into tate modern in London the Museum of Fine Arts Houston and the Museum of Fine Arts Boston. The NDA show was postponed to covid nineteen, and the show will now open at tate modern. In February, a number of books shuttled to coincide with the show however, most notably the vast tone that is Robert Stores Philip Guston ally spent painting I spoke to rob about the book. Row By was taken by something you say in your introduction, which is the. Guston's work is still becoming and I'd like you to unpack that a bit I, know what you mean but I'd like to say what what what you meant. I can't remember having said it but I think. Gusts in is an artist with a huge scope edition. And it is the situation that eventually caught up with him I think with regard without current problems they would have anyway because of the scope of what he was doing and so that every time big changes happened in the world, we found new correlations with what he did in some ways he anticipated was. In other ways, the historical examples looked back on encompass is happening now. So I think that's the way in which you. We will see for considerable time going forward situations in which he becomes newly relevant and each time he does there's new layers of meaning attached and and in terms of the twenty first century, which ways do you feel that Dustin is relevant today He did not deal with the racial things specifically and one could fault him for that although. Precious few people were at that point any Yoon fewer white artists doing that but he certainly dealt with the other side of the coin, which is a bigotry and hatred, and he in the thirties did make representations of African Americans he did deal with lynching and so on. So it's not that it was office chart and as I say in the book, one of the reasons he turned back to the client was the Birmingham bombings in the nineteen. Sixties, but he didn't represent it. So I would think, okay, fine. There is room there where somebody else can step in and pick up the threat and that is in fact, the way traditions built people not so much contradict the predecessor as add on in the spirit of or with slight disagreement with the president and I think his his work is like that. Now I think there are a lot of people who are thinking along those lines now. And I think we will see new images that. Take us to into account and push the Bush critique forward. A CETINJE, my experience I. I talked to a lot of painters and I don't hear any painters name more than I hear Austin's, and it seems to me this has been the same. The whole time I've been talking to to see seems perennially interesting to artists, right? Well I think his interest artist is number one he was completely. Fluent and and and. At home in his medium and we've been through a period where penny was much damned and was thought to have been utterly superseded by other means I'm not of the school that believes anything supersedes anything else I, think it just all becomes a much richer soup but then case we've been through a period in the eighties when this was l- gusting was just peaking in terms of his work he died just the beginning of the but where the discourse in on things now I think people are going back and realizing he sustained in his ideas as sustained the medium. There were others as well. He wasn't blowing Richard. Did it in with Berry did it numbers of artists showed what could be done with inning after painting had died but I think Guston is particularly encouraging figure for many artists because combines painting and drawing in a spontaneous way combines mixed emotions with fervent emotions. One of the great things I think about your book is massive and I love the that they were massive images. because. Apart from anything else in all phases of Guston's work. There is so much incident in these works and whether that's in the very early works where where he's profoundly inference by the Mexican murless or whether it's in a abstract works, all the later were it seems to me. that. There is so much energy and commitment to. To making each canvas so vital. and. That's one thing that really comes through when you see the images reproduced large, right? Well. I think that goes the credit for that. Goes the publisher and also for the state but there has never been a big gust and book before a Coffee Table Book you want to call it that I don't but. A large format one where the picture's can be felt as well as seen and I think that's really important. It could have happened before but it didn't. So now we finally have this book it happened for de Kooning it happened for virtually every other member of his generation, but it didn't happen before. So now we have it and I think it makes a real difference because Guston is physical pater and if you see a large physical thing in a small flat. Physical thing it just doesn't have the same effect. Let's talk a bit about what you're able to do in with this number of pages and in given the spice to this in-depth and investigation of were the thing that struck me most reading book is how much you were able to talk about the early word because it's the I guess it's the most is. Little is known part of his career. You talk through those early years influence of the Mexican Muris for instance. Okay, we'll the me the Mexican murless influenced pretty much every major painted America in the nineteen thirties to a greater or lesser extent. Another figure in that background would also be Malaysia, who was a mural list, but the ideal merely was attached principally to the Mexicans and the fact that Ross seek, Harrison van all came to this country and that artists could meet and had an immense effect because it also showed that ambitious art was possible in the Americas which many American artists did not know what. They saw was European in small formats they saw their own regional painting and that was it. So Guston was encouraged to think big by the Mexicans as were many of his peers and his particular beard Jackson pollock was his high school classmate learn from the Mexicans but never did a mural ever did one any called mural for pay you can hide but it was for apart and could only be as big as their seems whereas gusts and painted big big paintings and thought in those pictorial terms. And you in the book, there's there's reproductions that those that were actually destroyed by Klansmen. Right. So tell us about that story. Well, he painted a portable mural in Los Angeles. In the nineteen thirties and some kind of Goon squad mixing. Right wingers of other stripes and the clans came and destroyed. The paintings were on panels and they were destroyed. But you know. One of the things that we have to think about Donald Trump is he's the continuation of a long strain of nativist in racist violence in this country, a very on-stream he's not unheard of. So we need to realize one how reactionary is he would like to take things back not only to the nineteen thirties, but to the eighteen thirties and beyond. So that's part of it but the other part of it is that artistically sneaking American. Art Had DOT com of age in the nineteen thirties the end Norman Pollack again, when any of the artists, the upsurge expressions group. Again and so it was a huge leap forward for them. There's a tendency in Europe in. Britain particularly to look at that period as the point at which America lost its senses, a proportion began to sort of be belligerently You know pushing itself onto other people but the truth of the matter who was a country that had never felt bride on artistic traditions and finally had a reason to, and also they had this precedent Mexicans, which was not from the United States. But from another country, it was the United States Mexico but not the United States of America. To really challenge the old masters were the old masters had practiced their trade which was on the walls. So all of this was a very positive development and In a way, it is a shame that it did not continue. I mean that we do not have a mural tradition today. That's interesting. Isn't it was it? I mean one of the things that it's clear from looking at those images of the mules that he made the works he made at that time is incredible facility he was. He was incredibly gifted and clearly from a very young age I mean the works that that incredible mother and child work he made when he was just. I think shows incredible accomplishment. So Took through that a bit you know to what extent was he a protege and what extent in a way was he working against his pretty GIS nature all the way through his life I think he was he was he was definitely gifted but remember where he practices craft, I was in copying comic strips. He sat in the little closet and his family houses apartment whatever it was. Hiding out with comic books and then meticulously copying but he was copying crazy get and George Herman was one of the Great Grasp of the twentieth century. So if you're going to copy anybody, it's just as well as you copy him as copy Picasso who actually also was higher much and so this is this is the part where the strands of his seemingly everage nature actually knit together for the first time. Either then had lor certified Allston who is a Los Angeles Peter who instructed him and fight Allston was a very conservative magic realist but his conservatism actually was cosmopolitan not narrowly American and he taught gusts and how to do that very fine line and how to build hatching on. So but any artistic coming in artists come into their own does. So in phases and stages overlaps and so on. That's where the bland happens and the blend is unique happens in a way that had not happened before. Where does the sorts of joint happened between those early experiments and and he's adoption of abstract language will significantly moment in that. Will the abstract language is the rupture point that's the point in which he let. Let's go all of his address manship and. Obviously more you know, let's go of all of his traditional craft and less things. Happen and releases is control the line. Let's the line meander. You know there's a famous thing that. Oklahoma that align is is appointing going for a walk. Well, he let that happen and so that moment which is late nineteen forties. Early Nineteen fifties is the really biggest and his life is not later on when he picks up the clan images again, it's in the beginning of his abstract career. Which is why I tried to get his abstract career more attention than is often given in books about us because people talk about the paintings that were sort of prime abstract expressions, moment paintings, and then let the rest of them float and I think they do flow to the most wondrous way but I don't think they should be allowed to float are to start, right? Yes. So tell us about that because yes, you're right there's An and actually Hilton. Kramer's famous aggressive review an about the about the figurative paintings much later, he talks about how esteemed am Guston is among the abstract painters right. So so you know there was there was a lot of esteem at even then amongst painters and others about for the elegance of Guston's abstractions but actually he's he's abstractions little understood in some ways there's a very particular body of work that that isn't really very well nine. Okay well, there there are the late. Abstractions which are some of them, very heavy and oppressive and atmosphere They're the early ones which are sort of skill and Mondrian influence. But the the term elegance applied the rest was awful. No way of actually kind of brushing off that would be a way of saying, okay he's elegant whereas de Kooning or Kleiner, whatever it is or vigorous and macho all these terms are so code and they were so much about the internal intramural squabbles and rivalries of artists and Kramer was just an idiot I mean I knew him out and he was. He was at he was immediate not because he didn't have a brain, but because he was so much prejudice by his political views and by certain is that it us he just couldn't see plainly talked plenty about the things right in front of him. So you know I'm not gonNA worry about him. He's dead but the point is his what he voiced that moment was a generational sense of betrayal that I think many people felt when gusts moved from his so elegance. To his later work. I think he's the same painter throughout and I think what you see in those late abstractions is the reemergence, not just imagery per se but also a kind of bluntness and A. Willingness to go straight to the point of the image, which in the early ones is the thing that's in question their images from the early fifties which don't seem to come together, which came gather and I don't think that's a you know an accident they couldn't later on they could and they couldn't at that point become black holes literally they seem sink into themselves and acquire mass. How neat is it that we have this phrase from Guston about how he says he's This that famous phrase what kind of Manam I said at home reading magazines going into a frustrated fury about everything and then going into my studio to adjust a red to a blue is it is it as simple as that often quoted quote or was the development towards figuration from abstraction much more gradual, much more complicated, much more but as I guess it was much more bumpy but turning points or like suddenly something that's been happening for a long time crystallizes may I say that is a painter who will go upstairs after this interview and try to adjust red to blue feel much the same way under present circumstances and the fact of the matter is at some artists who are doing that in the fifties continued to. Adjust red to blue and only Guston broke out. But if you look at US own volition during the fifties, he was making cartoons of his friends which are virtually unknown and not all of which still exist he was making a drawings and letters all the time to people. This was a constant dimension of his work and it was the Whimsey it was easy. Perversity of imagination the came out in these so-called ancillary activities even as he was making pure abstractions. So what happened is in the the moment where he felt his frustration was that he decided okay I will just go all the way down that track which I had been. You know sort of athlete on for a while. Now I'm just GonNa go straight on it. I'm taking with this idea so that the continuum of his career, not just these ruptures that he's facility with paint that extraordinary quality that the paint has. which is consistent in some ways between those apps late abstractions particularly in the figuration 's. In a way that if you just deal purely with image, you don't get right. So you have to, you have to take image and the physical reality of these things together because otherwise you you miss the the great depth of Guston I guess, right? That's correct. That's correct and also if you WANNA know about his difficulty with his own facility, it's the same thing that happened with the kooning into Kuni and he talked together on the phone from time to time to kooning device all these different techniques for screwing up pictures that he could have done in his sleep, right? And he did he he would take a wet a transfer of one of a part of a painting. He would flip it over and apply it to the service was beautiful of the same painting and then try and deal with the contamination of one side to the other. Artists who have great facility have occurs as well as a gift, and that is something that all of them were serious have to learn how to deal with one of Motherwell's problems was he never felt the need one of some other people's is that they simply exploited for the production of things that will sell Guston and de Kooning we're serious artists and they would not. Accept a formula even if they could do it over and over again beautifully, and so Guston at the apogee of his success in one ways just chuck it all and started over and even three times life. Right exactly and but let's talk about that. That great moment in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, you talked about this kind of generational rupture in the he showing these figurative paintings. Created. Can give us a sense of that. What happened at that moment? Well. You have to remember that the Art World New Yorker that time was very, very small. And it met in the same bars in the same restaurants and it opens from time to time and they were -cational studio visits. But if you if you were on the outs, somebody was intimate, not general and there was almost no market for anybody. So it wasn't about career. It was about reputation which is different, and if you were reputed to be one thing and suddenly start up doing the other thing or another thing you could be shunned be ostracized by your former comments because what form those groups was the opposition that you all felt in the thirties and forties so you are you're an apostate orbit. Judas to the cause in the eyes of some people. Right and this was also the moment would pop part was really taking command up or had been born in written in the late fifty s it mushroomed in the sixty s country. So by the time, he showed these works it was as if he was joining the other team now there were several other teams there was. On with. But the point is people looked at it and those kind of Manichean terms and thought he'd gone commercial thought he jumped ship thought he'd gone for the easy easy style and one they didn't know that he'd been making cartoons all his life to they didn't understand that it wasn't easy even if you did do something like that. Your souls, an example of that and so on down the line, it was a very complex situation but Kramer wasn't smart enough to realize that and he wasn't honest enough to say if he did realize it other people who were in the inner circles where feeling that one of theirs had left left the Phalanx had left the barricades and they were really upset and they didn't understand. They didn't see why did it and they just felt betrayed. Let's talk about the imagery because it's on the one hand. There were these repeated images that appear throughout that last decade but actually, it's a much richer lexicon of images than many. Commentators would estimate know. Can you tell us something about how broad is language of forms was in that period? Well I think there are several parts of that number one heat drawn all his life and the daily practice of drawing is something that is visible in artists. Those who are rarely can do wonderful things on occasion, but they can't. Use It as a way to. To kooning talked about his art is being kind of like A. Yogurt you know there's a L- little. Element and you drop it in a new bit of milk, and then you have a New York up. He and gus in had the most potent fermentation devices because they practiced their art for so long and they had accumulated in the process, not just skill in the hands but also associative abilities with the mind when they saw a particular curve, it would remind them of something either they had made or somebody else in made, and so if they were going into the curve, they might come out of it differently because this reminiscence taking place and Guston and. We're not embarrassed to show their references to art history. They won't see him. It's just that it was in them right and so I think a lot of what happened with Guston's. Developed category was that he he kind of took full ownership of the scope of his knowledge and he just let things happen and he would recognize them. Any would think about them and he will decide whether to restart the engine there or somewhere else. But he was always grateful for suggestion illusion an inference, and of course, there's this wonderful thing where you have him and Philip Roth talking about crowd, Cola? What what did he mean by POLA? What he means is the ordinary junkie life of everyday America. You know this ship basically, but you he was savoring the fact that so much of what we live surrounded by his infection. And you you have to love it because it's human, but you don't have to love it specifically because it actually stinks and is ugly. So ease into that Roth was was a man who appreciated these things too. So the idea that you would have a friend with whom you could have this dialogue about all the things that high culture maidens were opposed to the. Hilton. Kramer was nothing if not even of culture and many of the literary reviewers of this time took a roth. The task on the same grounds art should be elevated everything else should be just commercial art has never been that elevated I mean rabble please. Gus In is a rubble Asian artist. And and and and we had forgotten that such artists exists but he's revelation not just in the sense that he's risque or obscure. Scene or whatever he's grotesque. He savors grotesquery as a natural outgrowth of the divided nature of humans and you talked about trump. Obviously, some of the great works the Guston made in that last decade refer to President Nixon Painting which I've seen in the flesh recently could San Clemente which is an extraordinary amount of Nixon. Tell me about that I mean was it what were those sort of amused detached caricatures or was was some that frustrated fury in those pictures will absolutely the frustrated fury was there but there's an element to which is the identification. The San Clemente pennies. The only painting that he made in the same idiom as his cartoons, and it's the only painting of Nixon Ernie of the the political villains of that time that he ever made either. But you know you have to remember that Guston was not standing on the outside pointing fingers. He was saying, this is what we have become and it so happened he says it at one point one and his journals lectures that he came to the same partisan California the Nixon came from and he was Mo- roughly oven age with Nixon so he identified with him not in the sense of. Accepting what he thought her did but rather in the sense of realizing that he too was the product of a small reality in the corner of America looking at the wider world in struggling with all the sense of alienation that goes with that. So he didn't just despise Nixon he knew him. Right, that's really interesting. One of the things I think Jules me back to Guston so much is that. On the one hand, there is much amusement you can find in his incredible. Creativity with form in the way the in his structure in his compositional flair in that very caricature. Language, but also there is a distinct pay-for of an and it seems to me that that's a really difficult thing for a painter to get. Right it could fall flat so easily. Can you say something about what? To what extent was he conscious of trying to achieve balanced between this sort of absurd and genuine sadness saw or despair even Well. Two things I think he'd lit he he lived on the knife edge of that balance, and then the question was by what means do I actually depict or express it because the artistic problem is the one transforming what you truly experience into something that others will also be able to experience. So I don't think there's any question but that he actually felt all of those things. Genuinely wasn't trying to talk about something that was outside Ms. Trying to talk about something that he was right in the midst of himself but I think also that he chose a comic means to express tragic reality is an indication of how smart he was and also ambitious was because people throughout the nineteen fifties had been expressing tragedy as tragedy as something. Sad is something fraught with? Its it's and that was the whole existential. Est.. Legacy to painting in that period and he realized that was spent you could no longer use that rhetoric effectively, it would not get under people's skins or in their souls or in their brains because he was also very learned Bainer and he thought about things. So he did then go to his artistic or. Literary, Barons Kafka Bobble and others who expressed tragic circumstances in burlesque fashion that sort of doubt in the work again I think that's something that appeals to a loss of painters and it's it's re large in images of artists as well. So the idea of a painter as depicted by a painter is very prevalent in those late works. If you see a painter in Guston is that always him I think it is always DOPP painter. Of which he is one. But I think there's also something to to acknowledge. and. talked a great deal and he also talk sometimes too much and people got tired of him talking about doubt and all of that, and there was a pushback from his peers who were going through many of the same things who hadn't in fact solve the problem is effectively or even spaced it as early as he did, but he could go on a bit. So I think you have to separate the man. From the paintings, the paintings are never corny there never a rant Iraq or whatever it is. Occasionally he is conversation is tedious frankly he tries to hard to establish himself in this existential mode and no, one would doubt it but he doesn't need to tell us quite often and quite the same word. So I am a big fan of Guston's but nobody's perfect and if he has feet of clay those or his Klay. One of the things that you do the end of the book is is to try and position him in critical world now and and how he's been interpreted over the you know over recent times what would you say you learned from that from going through that process? All there. Lots of. Preconception still at work in terms of interpreting guston orally or always there an acknowledgement of the complexity of his Ov-. Now. I think there's increasing in understanding the complexity of his Earth, but I think also the critical language in our country in your country have not evolved that much over this period of time and even though the painting is there to. Demonstrate that we need better language. We don't have it right. So the cliches about painting being just as cystic activity cliches about American art being just jingoistic and all of that persist and people don't look because they can't think they don't have language for what they see and they don't see because they don't have language. So I think that's the biggest problem. Guston was a as I said a very large. Comprehensive artist, but the language of art discourse is narrow and it is parochial in many. And it is also a party pre. It's people with access to grind and agendas develop I wish he would just expansive and let themselves see and hear and think a lot of things before they open their mouth or put pen to paper or finger to keyboard. It strikes me that in in that I, know there's a bit for instance where you talk about 'em the way the Guston got somehow slotted into that neo expressionist moment and how there was. No possibility that he could have been aware of the work of Kiefer, and and and Baselitz at that time you can't link them because they're just so distinct you can. But in the other direction, Bassett's almost certainly new. Guston, and their Bachelet's is of the nineties that have very direct debts to the abstract. He's about which I don't talk much but I could have there quite a lot of business show Guston's influence directly. So suppose the the the question is. How do we situate Guston? Now in our historical terms, you know, do we just see him for as a kind of maverick genuinely original painter who who cannot be categorized or is it useful to position him in terms of the New York school and later developments invigoration especially when painting within within crisis as it were. Well I think it's useful couple of directions to understand him better. We need to put him in history but to change our struggle models, we need to put him in history too because he makes those models obviously wanting is director. This is true Louise Bourgeois lot of people have written about I've written about them in part because I found the categories into. which they've been slotted inadequate and the paradigm that created those categories in inadequate as well. I have to stay art historians are the most conservative people whether they call themselves. Marxist or not that ever encountered and they don't like to have people mess up their categories because their categories are their brand. Right. But I think it is high time we accept that. The what goes on in the visual arts and among the best artists and I use that term with all caution is is to break up lockstep thinking and people who are professionally dedicated should not become the guardians of those lockstep thoughts. Rob, Expand Plaza Tokyo Guston. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. pesto lifespan painting by Robert Store is out now published by Laurence King and price sixty pounds or eighty five dollars and it was book of the month in the art newspapers Book Club. You can find review by Kenneth Baker along with exclusive extract at the newspaper Dot Com look for the book club Landing Page and the Exhibition Philip Guston. Now begins at tate modern in February twenty, twenty one. and. Finally, it's time for the work of the week your sister Kobe satellite show opening in. New York. Next week has chosen Edward Manning unforgettable the DEJA lab. You can see an image of the work at the newspaper Dot Com Click on the podcast link and look for this episode. So Jacoby you've chosen mayonnaise. Luncheon on the grass which hangs in Paris's music or say, and this is this is a classic. It's the bread and butter of an introduction to modernism for many art history courses. When was the first time? You encountered this work whether that be in a book or in media on TV or something? Is that moment separate or different from the first time you encountered it in person. Will. So I've never encountered it him Harrison. It's been forced fit to me throughout my entire life studying art since I was. Thirteen is always been something. I've revisit it conceptually because it is kind of like you said it sort of but now. Staple art object that introduces people's to the concept of modernism and pursuit of truth through depicting the middle class of the bourgeoisie or the you know. It was something about depicting the common folks on a large scale. and. Not depicting a secular entity and the reason why I thought it would be great to talk about it. Today was because that painting and Kobe's Bureau of were not which was another controversial Hang Seng for the same reason and it was also considered a painting that ushered in modernism. It's because. You know in two thousand, twenty I don't think in human history and our collective human history have we ever encountered such a drastic paradigm shifts collectively the destabilization of surgency a shift in like our priorities at definitely felt like my outlook has completely been turned inside out even how easy my intention and so for my solo exhibition coming up next week. I decided to use the concept of luncheon on the grass as a as a Motif recruiting throughout the show like I digitized, all these pastoral concert landscapes with. Figures mutating folly of something like that. I personally feel like it was appropriate to reintroduce that. Thanks to my new work at the concept to us as something just you know leap from because. In the painting, it was controversial because many shows that depict a female nude. Who was not a divine angel ordered forcing it for you know it was Kinda like something about the banality of it. All that was really really shocking for people, and so I personally was interested in I do I invite that concept if Being, ushered in modernism. What are we ushering in now could definitely length we're definitely not even modernism or postmodernism anymore I feel like. In, our current timeframe. We're entering a new kind of observations of truth. A lot of mitts on capitalism have been stabilized a lot like the the has been been pulled back in we're kind goes to trying to readjust and re assimilate. Should this new way of living everything you've decided brings up something when you when you said that this work was what you wanted to talk about I actually got really excited because the most often trod story as you've already kind of touched on about this particular work from an as from an art historical or historical standpoint is that artists was having a bit of fun with the viewer and and the market and the weight of history general just by introducing these. These really uncategorized able nude figures and a very quotidian scene and. In a slightly realistic way and all I all while poking. Fun, at Social Moore's and the and the legitimacy of sight and vision and and what we know to be true. And so I think you know as you've kind of said in in that way, it really does speak to our fake news kind of era. Now, because confusion has been weaponized modernism was about truth where in this era of like chaos confusion and division and that has been weaponized by the elite in a way to kind of keep them, Atanas. But we living in a time where like everything we thought we were pursuing were pursuing something else like this confusion spectrum I understand. So I've curious to hear more about what you took away from the painting itself whether specific. Parts are details in the painting that you of interested on for the working your upcoming show, and can you describe some of that? Of the Kobe night-seeing came to the United States and all of the things that happen with our civil unrest and the protesting and like. Just, basically, every continent cataclysmic thing that's happened especially regarding this weird race war that's happening now in some weird reconsideration of black reparations I kind of felt. As a black person, I personally felt alienated this year with everything going on and all I wanNA I. The only thing I could focus on is you know with Emma Studio Making things in digital animation is, how can I make a utopia? A digital site of Three D. animation of virtual reality installation that kind of brings back the divine to the black figure And so in the animation cast a Beth reinhard assassin who is activists and model former supermodel and defines, and they're kind of like the host of this site where I have my CGI animated figures kind of acting like you know robust superheroes in a way kind of sort of like any kind of obstacle coming their way in this moving image in this virtual reality installation economists of their immune to all the. Biological threats that are flying at them in this case and I kinda just want it to basically invert the concept of a casserole concert or luncheon, and a grass or early modernist painting depicting the modern person ordinary individual by depicting a community of black individuals as absolutely not ordinary and absolutely above the beyond define. Since it seems like we are burning the concept of modernism post coded. Thank you so much for taking the time to discuss bypassing. Festival with your new work as well. All right. Thank you very much. To copy satellites exhibition, we're in Hell when we had each other is it Mitchell innocent Nash in New York from the twenty fourth of September to the thirty first of October. For this week do subscribe to the newspaper and the newspapers. com. Click, on the subscribe link at the top left of the page and you'll find the Rangers subscriptions and scrapped this podcast and a brush with ready and give us a rating or review. If you've enjoyed you can also find us on twitter And facebook and instagram. We cannot is produced by Judy House. Cincinnati. Davies entertained sanders. Thanks. GRAYSON RAV at Margaret into Kobe. Thank you for listening. See you next week. The we cannot is sponsored by Christie's visit Christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction house in seventeen, sixty, six option private sales online not anytime.

Philip Guston America Guston UK United States New York Europe Christie Grayson Perry tate modern Margaret Carrigan Paris Britain Rio president Jacoby Kobe Kramer Exhibition Philip Guston Richard Armstrong Elizabeth Du
372: No Such Thing As A Dinosaur For Goldilocks

No Such Thing As A Fish

1:00:07 hr | 3 months ago

372: No Such Thing As A Dinosaur For Goldilocks

"Hi everyone before we start this week show. We have some unbelievably exciting news. Yes we are leaving our homes venturing out into the real life world and into some actual theaters and during a life tool. Yes we are date. It is going to start in october. Towards the end of this year and carry on probably over the christmas period and into the new year. It will take place in the uk and ireland. And if he wants to know where we'll be than the best place find out is dot com slash fish offense but honor to have some sneak. Previews look it's possible. That for instance if you live in reading or pu or cantabria newcastle. It's possible we'll come to you as possible if you live in your co brighton will come to you. Who knows. i know we're coming to you. Come to us yes. We really cannot wait to get back on the road. It's something that we have missed so so much. Seen you guys over the last few years it's going to be an amazing show. We'll do podcast in the second. Half in the first half will let you do all of the things that we've been up to. I don't just mean saying play with account which is all i've been. We'll make something up. Make something up. I've never ridden imaginary life over the last year. All about that. So please come and see us. Good accuweather dot com slash fisher events all navigate their way such thing as a fish dot com to find out all about it. We'll see that okay with the podcast and welcome to another episode. No such thing as as a weekly podcast coming to you from full mysterious locations in the uk. My name is dan. Schreiber am sitting here with annotations ski. Andrew hunter murray and james larkin once again. We have gathered. Round the microphones with our favorite fats from last seven days and in particular order. Here we go back number one. That is andy. Might actors that from nineteen twenty five until nineteen thirty six. The town of eastbourne had phone boots with thatched roofs. While that sounds very spun to me it does that feels like phones and thatch roofs along to quite different errors. So why would they thought. And what i would call the post-thatcher well. They weren't see eastbourne aptitude a bit later than the rest of the world to the to batch until everything but the base gives the beginning of the twentieth century very exciting. You know we've got phones now and we'll find boxes and early days. Local authorities didn't like getting standard designs for what was going on in their parish. Council that town council whatever and so they had these two kiosks seafront and they thought not doesn't look very eastbound to us so they insisted that they got a local factor to come on a bill. The roof and it looked so stupid at magic toadstools series. Pixie living in this on is this on the classic red phonebox the case six as it's known or is this earlier these what k. Six model these very early models a new and still read right and finds the full k. One six range and aside from a couple of exceptions they all the same to me. I estimate a fuss about the progress. Maybe you've phonebox. Blindness like james has as blindness sorry on k. One is read very different. The case ex. These are the k. Ones and in fact they were not universally disliked because it nine hundred ninety six. That was the letter to the chronicle saying. I call believe you've taken the thatched roof off the phone boxes. What are coming to an eastern. Well they did sign up in that lonzo. They said that the original like across between the chinese pagoda at a mushroom so they didn't like the new ones. I'm not sure they like the old ones that much either. No one likes any message. It's not a bad thing. I know you hate mushroom so you'll find audit. I automatically assume a chinese pagoda across mushroom as a negative thing sounds beautiful. Yeah okay well I'm sure that. Boris yeltsin will be bringing you in interior design subtypes saying don't you think it's so sad. They stopped at the k. Six because they got to the canine. We would have had dogs shaped case definitely. Oh god they stop. Maybe it was a trademark issue. Right maybe k nine came out and they just didn't have access. Yea because it's like a doctor who had a dog called. Canine didn't he had a like telephone bucks but he had a Whether you have a police ball is a police balls because it would have been all sorts of completion that when the that was a k. Ax model so that was kind of k. Tatton or or latin so it feels like there's something going on here that went up any x one. Hundred is the one you're talking about. Maybe which is that. Glass modernist one. The everyone kind of remember from the ninety s. maybe the k. Is the route one when we started putting up all those you know. Sex worker coal numbers and accents known as the case icy. I found out about those in the course of researching this and only in the course of researching. I'd like to say but do you know whether the world's largest collection as of cool cards in phone boxes. And i still got called that while they do in academic so is it in the british library so close your about one hundred meters ways. The welcome by the amazing institute of you know. They've got all sorts of collections and they have seventeen boxes of them can employ stephen. He's still he's still collects new ones doesn't he. He goes around london because he's updating the collection. All the time coincidence that he works for the wellcome library which also placed that collects things. Is it part of the collection like once. You've been round a relatively. Dry selection of old manuscripts. You might want fun time at the end. Actually at the wellcome collection they do have a lovely little cafe that has selection of various apps. so lou. thanks it's interesting just just on those. It's sort of started. The idea of these tart. Cards in phone boxes started supposedly in soho area. And when they first went up they were done purely with words. And in order to go past obscenity laws and so on they had to do coded advertisement so for example. You might see one. That said large chest for sale. And you know that that was some i mean there was reports that the the worker in question did have to field lots of calls from furniture buyers as a result of that. It would be all these kind of innuendo early. Five boxes was so cool. Some of them had carpets inside just one tiny square of carpet on the ground and does They all had cigarette rests so you could rescue fact while he was smoking which i love Yeah okay finishes quite gorgeous things and the days you know. Now i still find boxes have been adopted into other things like many libraries or internet cafes or whatever because people aren't using them to phone anymore even nineteen nine hundred. I read a lesson furious. Lesser into the belfast. Telegraph by a man. Who said i have to make a phone call so i went to a phone box and i was held up for ten minutes by two ladies inside and of course the two ladies were not using the phone. There was a mirror in the phone box as a lot of them had and are pencilling. The eyebrows empowering And as he said surely we see enough of these empty headed useless. Modern girls applying makeup on trams and buses without having to wait from outside. I'm inboxes. I'm trying to buy your chest. He signed up batchelor bill. How they being repub is that the moment just to jump to current times. there's a basically a graveyard. Isn't there of where they've been collected by. Restorers who field goals from around the world of people wanting to own a precious historical case six phonebox and they get all sorts of real. You would say graveyard this. Send your dad's and they get refurbishes. I you're right. what is it's yeah it's a. It's plastic surgery. Yeah that's it. Yeah and they Yeah so restoring them and the and the people who buy them sort of have requested there was a guy in. Saudi arabia really wanted his turned into a shower so they've had to look into doing that and they're really there's a huge waiting list and they can only restore so many at per year. Because it's a big job you have to match the color which is post office red which is quite an easy thing to do because it is available so that's not like a nightmare you've got to put the new class in which they use just classic glass source that very accessible wooden gold and just your basic steel. So gosh god is that most of you're talking about i mean how many how would he graveyards there. I just. I know the village of estimated lovely whereas i've been to the place where the grave is in surrey. Yes sorry pit beyond croydon failing. The i deliberately drove my wife about fifty miles out of our direction just to see that graveyard. Once doesn't doesn't sound like you. Did they let you in james to browse the dead. i can't. They were too busy frantically trying to find some The the guy who invented invented designed many of the models of phone box. He did the to the three and the case. Sex as well Giles go but scott. He was an unbelievable guy. In fact we've mentioned about the twice before because dan usage. I just got that. He did battersea power station and boxes of he did he did waterloo bridge needed the tate modern building. I mean his his imprint house. Commons has the Yes you're at the he. He did the box outside the front. No i'm not letting go. It was bombed in the war. And he i mean he. Basically he did the redesign of the regression of the chamber after the will but he did do it the same as putin's designed but his family so he was giles. Gilbert scott wright. His father was george but scott also an architect. His father was also called. George gilbert scott was also an architects right. Well his son. Richard was another architect. Rich gilbert scott also knocked died in two thousand seventeen. That was an lisbeth gilbert scott or elizabeth scott. Who was the cousin of giles. Did the shakespeare theatre in stratford. This whole fast. In gilbert scott's just on so much yeah george junior the son of the first george go got died in the midland hotel at the packers which his own father had designed. Well should have been so that saint pancras hotel which he designed his word. They filmed the Wannabe video for the spice girls. Is it which. I think of all these things that they did is probably the absolute pinnacle how and the takeaway fact that this whole episode. That is if you go there. And i don't think should encourage everyone to go there. You can just go and stunned on that stackhouse where they kind of. Come down at the stats. And do they'll let me. I really hope when you check in concierge they say. What do you want to tell you what i was. Originally going to be georgia's gussied spice but they idea. Does he design. George to the okay four. I guess he takes it again all the rest. I think he was. He was okay. I believe actually. Oh wow really. He was plagiarized in the capable which was the best says my favorite fa case on because it was also a social service post office. So i had a stock dispenser and letterbox added to the back of it. There's there are only fifty made. It was actually a disaster. I think it was quite expensive But yet you had oppose machine you can put your money in you. Get some stamps. So you post your lesser and there are five remaining so if you live in those fights and go and visit and pay and they love all said the letter which we all do every single dating. Say i'm outta bucks stuff to a couple of things on thatch. Yeah so. Thatch is no longer a major major thing for the uk but there are still output. So i think about sixty thousand. Fifty thousand homes at the uk thatched which is quite long to me Loads in norfolk suffolk There's one thatched brewery which is at bridgeport. Endorse it and does that. Actually got to model thatched villages and in the village of shilton a thatched wall. Really what is it okay which allows allowed to pick you up on the town's so that's a real place there's a real place and it's it's not the point of the fact. I'm sorry yeah frustrated. When he found that facts and he saw well. I want to talk about as the factual eating negative on his cloudy shinsen. Why do they need to the is isn't to protect it. And i think that might be a house somewhere halfway along it but it is. Basically a wall is just confident of thatched roof all the way along us pretty pretty. Good reasons scott's shits to do you know what in thought ching you know what butters it if you have a bundle of read saw straw. It's the thick and of that is called the but gino chico's Is it the opposite of the butts. Now it's thinner is just the word for the site of a window but that means if you put your thick ends of your straw up against your window but cheek lovely both chicks. I'd be so confused. If i went into the payphones and so the cards there would you like your cheeks. Plumped lumping cogos this amazing web site code touching info dot com. Which i know how this man who is a thatcher has also had time to put together this fall results. but it's everything you avenues. Nobody thought ching and he one of the things reports on is the difference in thatches around the country so the uk is it into five touching regions and they will broadly fall into two categories. So you got the rounded soft kind of squishing. Thatch is your classic thuch. And then you've got your much more angular thatch and you know which you're going to see because it exactly depends on if you're north or south of the five woah on so cool and this is something that he discovered photographing them and not because the five goes along the old road that was called what links and that was really ancient road. It's been around since ancient rome. And that was what what link street was used as the dividing line between dane law so when the danes came over and took over the north of england And the dividing line between day. And then anglo-saxons on the south so the thatch the north essex all looks a bit like danish or german style. Thatch angular and the south looks like anglo-saxon. Thatch cool is amazing. What everyone wants to know is what kind of thatch is shits right. Well it's just it's an again that'd be rounded into dorset. Yeah i read that On thatch info dot com. Which i have to say is. I agree with resumes website. And they said that the thatcher was like one of the most important people in the village and he was full of infinite gossip. Because obviously he's kind of in the eaves of the buildings l. literally literally eavesdropping. Because he that's why he's hiding and he could hear everything that was happening. They have lots of examples of the people who were doing. The work and a lot of them women as well They have an example from rippin from thirteen ninety nine of some female helpers. Doing the main work but they will tend to do like the collapsing of the Straw and stuff like that for instance. I'm tasks from tested. the double. She was in the novel. She kind of works alongside the threshing machine. Which is getting the serial off the stock so that you can wrap them together and sediments thatch so yeah right cool. I thought about ruined the ending of test do of is i haven't read it so i i would not lean the too far over into the fax machine. Their head comes up the podcast. We'd like to let you know that this week. We are sponsored by tin. That's right and physically linked in talent solutions. Where if you have a small business or if you're looking to employ people you head over to linked talent solutions and it's essentially like match dot com but for jobs and does not the awkward thing. We have to see them in fact. It's better if you don't it sets you out with exactly the right person that you need. I was thinking it's almost like britain's got talent for jobs apart from you don't have the oakwood thing was someone comes on and does a loaded. Chuckling go has doubts doggone unless you're looking for employees in a circus in which case linked ten still the place to go but yeah it really is good so easy to upload an advert and what it does you put an the job specifications and it tracks down everyone on their system who matches your of it perfectly and it will send them an email or push notification or make sure that job gets in front of them and then they will be able to apply for it. Yes so if you are a business who's looking for a new higher than goto linked in jobs and you can post a job for free and you can do that by going to link ten l. i. n. k. e. d. i n. although spell links and dot com slash fish and you can post that job for free. That's right leg to in dot com slash fish and posey first job for free. Okay with a show with the podcast okay. It is time for fact number. Two and that is james. Okay my this week. Is that dinosaurs migrated. That's it. We left a pause for where the rest of the sentence should be such brevity we couldn't fill it. It is mainly a two word fact. Which i didn't know how are they going from and to what do they sunnier climes. I think mall food Definitely which obviously sunny climes can often give you that. This was in north america specifically on. It was a new study by guy. Called josh malone. Who was at the jackson school of geosciences at the university of texas in austin. And it's really cool. What how was he was visiting these that He was in one part of america and he said one of these wit stones on the floor and is not said. oh that gus. Journalists and gusto Is something that if you're a bird you will swallow bits of stone and it helps you to digest things because it crushes up the food. Dinosaurs had these as well and so he went back to school and started studying and then decided to do a paper on these stones. What he found is that the stones that they found in wisconsin actually originated wyoming on. He looks for all different ways that they could have gotten from wyoming wisconsin and he couldn't find a single of the way that with no rivers the went. There was no other way that could've gone so they've worked out that they must have come in the stomachs of dinosaurs. And this is the best evidence that we have so far this quite of other evidence but this is the best evidence that we have the dinosaurs mood from one place to another on regular occurrences to get more food and it was one of the things. He considered the possibility of extremely explosive diarrhea. I mean how far is it from wyoming to wisconsin. How if you if you really propelling it. It's about six hundred miles Bad as possible. I'm just saying both was close back then. Wasn't it because of gondwanaland so maybe was six meters ended. Yeah series falling apart james. I'm so sorry but these were. These are the really big dinosaurs big next sora pots that you'll that you'll know from your models child And we know that they had to each hole the time and we know that have stayed where they were. They will be enough food so they would have to move on but this is just the first evidence of it. That's interesting. I'm sorry pods are also responsible for what we know. Is the longest obvious journey. That one single so report has made. There's a track way which is in france which has been found which covers one hundred fifty meters of one sauropod walking home. Wow is this five hundred feet worth of foot impressions from this dinosaur. And it's the longest one singular wolk. That's been sort of held in the ground that we have. And that's just a little too records there for migration and full eric. Longest obvious walk. Well we can definitely Take from that that they did well which is more evidence that they migrated. I'm just trying to help you out. Because i know we ruined it theory earlier and help build it back up. Just on dinosaurs. I really liked the fact that they were to those living at the polls which i had never considered before fact yeah the polls were much friendlier places. During the time of the dinosaurs they were still called. They had snow is in the winter months. But it looks like there were dinosaurs and again. This is the recent discovery living there all year round and they even we think slowed their growth down during the colder seasons so they can cope with being a bit colder having a bit less resources. Which is what shrews do today. I think we've mentioned that before. Yeah the where dinosaurs in. What is now the uk of the british isles. We know that they're iguanadon slipped here because we found that bones Actually if you think about it. They weren't exactly where we are today. There were about fifty thousand light years away and that is because solar system moves around the center of the galaxy right on. It's always moving and like we move around the sun. The entire solar system moves around the unit thus and sell the entire solar system fifty thousand light years away from where it was when the dinosaurs were alive so even though they lived on the same amount of land where we are if you think about it space wise they will no one. There's i i saw this online. It's really worth checking out on twitter. This the video by dr jesse christianson and it's an animation that shows exactly what you're talking about james and during the Iguanadon gigantic source era that literally the other side of the galaxy to where we are in space time and if you picture our position right now if it was say compass with sort of south west on the compass just close very close to the south southwest and as you go up sort of on the west angle of compass is when stegosaurs comes in in terms of the spacing of our entire galaxy. Then you get the top. And that's when you suddenly gets the iguana don and giganotosaurus and then if you were east on the compass that's when things like the t. Rex velociraptor coming in then. Finally in space time you have the big moment where the extinction moment happened. And that is roughly southeast some in between east and south on the compass but the dinosaur period did star in the period of the galaxy that we are now in that was the initial bit so so because once. Yeah i'll i see so we've done one set navigation of the clock face already exactly. Yeah and the spot. We're in is basically in a similar area to where dinosaurs claim one galactic year ago that were dinosaurs on this kind of asset. Exactly so we might once we get all the way round might bump into them again. The possible one of them made it got left behind. Still hanging there in space brontosaurus. The aliens we met on our way round. The last time have been busy sewing us. Cool new cost. But i think we're still. These became so popular ago. We aliens they're going to deliver his gifts of outfits. They think nightline. Yeah because we already know that the dinosaurs lived in the north pole of the south ball must be cold. They needed something. That's his like what you've got people. That's what will jump aspera penguins this benevolent alien theory. Charity case basically. I was reading a bit about. The asteroid was killed the dinosaurs. And you know exactly what it was like physically and the summit that i hadn't really considered it firstly It was about fifteen kilometers across right. And i hadn't really considered it because you think of it just being a now but basically what it hits just before it vaporized it would have been twice the height of mount everest as if it had just bumped into the slightly it would now be to mount everest just very softly london on the i. I see exactly. Isn't that incredible twice. The height of mount everest. Have you seen that simulation that the bbc put on their site about how basically when it when it hit it effectively the heat was so great that it kind of liquefied the rock at its that it ryan rammed into so it kind of created a wave and the highest point when as high if not higher than mount everest so in the ten minutes after we were hit we had a mountain on this planet that was told within mount everest and it collapsed on itself into lots of different less high mountains and then eventually became part of the landscape in that moment. Yeah we help mountain taller. The amount was that was it like a liquid rock mountain though you will be able to climate you buy be able to serve. Yeah and you only had. You'd have to be really prepared with your crampons and so you'd have to have inside knowledge. That was coming that to impress. Each other had holding competitions. We think must have been so impressed with beachie right. Came down the sexiest time. The whatever you can imagine a particularly good hole digging dinosaur coming back up and having missed the whole event. Where is everyone over nothing. Wa- we think they did this. So this is a recent discovery. Research is in colorado has found these kinds of borders these long trenches ancient trenches from the cretaceous period and they have a few footprint. Side them that matched theropods. Which are things like philosopher philosopher options. And so these these big trenches and they're on any fossils inside them that would imply the use them for things like storage or they lived in them or they were for protection or anything and they deduce basically the it must have been showing off. Because they're digging these big trenches for absolutely no reason whatsoever so they believe. Now it's a way to attract mate is a big home and still works for me for a big hole. That's not even try use mistakes. Do you know that the would know medium-sized ida cells. I have had a terrible time. Wouldn't say era. Goldilocks that was the two sides because those medium size on this was a study by caitlin shredder at the university of new mexico. And they've looked at all the different dinosaur species looking different communities and they found that generally speaking they all had a weight of under one hundred kilograms or over one thousand kilograms but there was nothing in between. I just find that absolutely amazing. And the reason what they think. Is that the big dinosaurs that children all teenage children would have been eating. All of the foods That would have been normally eats. And by carnivals of that size and so basically their children filled in the nation the ecosystem normally a medium sized animal would take. Isn't that cool social good theory. Let really like that. Yeah the and that was the other thing recently which i also th the maximum t rex population. I'm sure you guys all that study. That found the the total t rex population over the years was something like two and a half billion meaning that if they all came back every three people on earth will be able to share won t rex of living with souls. I have a question for you. Guys is jurassic park happened as in we managed to clone dinosaurs and create a big park where they hung out. You visit yes. Yeah of course. Well i've got. I've got a thatched world series sherzer. I'm trying to close a deal on a chest again even lines too late. You're only yes right there. Was this poll. That was done and it was in the headlines. Because it was you governor so in two thousand fifteen and the headline was that twenty. Five percent of americans think that dinosaurs and humans definitely didn't co exist So only a quarter of americans think that they definitely didn't coexist at which obviously they didn't by the way and overall what side do you follow them. It's not my opinion so who team percent until they definitely did coexist. Twenty seven cents. They probably did coexist. Forty percent of americans think that probably humans dinosaurs existed at the same time very surprising in the same poll though downloaded this poll and the next question that was it's drastic. Caulk existent would you. Only forty percent of people said yes. Half people said absolutely not. Well if you'll species has already coexisted point. Poll does it distinguish between the people who actually think that caveman living with dinosaurs. On people got well actually. I think you'll find that birds are really modern dinosaurs. Now's a good point doesn't ask and maybe all that forty one percent were terrible. Pedants like that worse than people. Genuine think we live with okay. It's time for fact number three and that is my fact. My fact this week is that. In the first half of the twentieth century thousands of premature babies were treated in amusement parks and fairgrounds in europe and the united states nitrates it like in the teacups are in the loop. Delude poll. yeah. This is an extraordinary story. This is the story of a man called. Dr martin cooney who was known as the incubator doctor and basically within the amusement parks he sets up what you would now see in hospitals as where premature babies would be resting that started in hospitals but at the fairgrounds of the world. Because doctors didn't believe incubators could work. They didn't think there was a purpose to them. Really at the time premature babies were seen as weaklings and this was one guy who ferry weirdly was sort of p.t. Barnum s kind of character. He was he was a real showman. Who decided he wanted to try. And save children's lives and he created what we're known as the inventory items where you would pay twenty five cents to walk into a building and basically look at children that was sitting in incubators and watch them growing. The nurses used to dress the babies in overgrown clothes. Really to sort of show. How tiny these little babies were a while you. Yeah you could watch the children being fed milk in various different ways either. They were fed via bottle or they were feted by the breast or through the nose. The feeding through the nose thing is with because obviously doesn't work unless you actually for feeding tube through some and into someone's you know Software then you just inhaling stuff but yeah. They had a special knows feeding spoon. I think i saw this in another earlier. One even This was something called the lion incubator because he did not invent incubator we should say dot came out a while before him and but the line incubator came and displays or put on the line incubator. And there's a nose feeding spoon and it's basically like a teaspoon and then a very end it had a little pointy fold and apparently milk net and you held it in the baby's nose kind of shoving the appoint default. The baby's nose and the baby would breathe the milk. Kin drop by drop like inhaling the fumes that were so i'm surprised yes so Lions please webby original ones. And it's not only the i'm kuni than invents the incubators. He didn't invent the idea of showing them off. Because lyon did that as well and he would rent out shopfronts. Wouldn't he way you could walk down boulevards and you can see these babies shopfronts and was his incubators was so expensive. The only way they could get the money for them was to charge people couple of a couple of some teams hair. And that's a see the baby's but what's what's extraordinary about it. I mean there's a lot to unpack the story about this guy kuni because in theory a load of Ethical practices were breached by a guy who wasn't actually a doctor. As far as we can tell but in his time he said to have saved over six thousand five hundred babies he had a success rate of eighty five percents and not only that it was basically a version of healthcare. Because the parents didn't have to pay for the babies to be looked off. That was the whole point of him. Getting fairgrounds and certain babies would be a bit famous. They would come in root for a baby that was growing particularly well. It became the place where parents were able to go. I have no other option because hospitals don't do this. I can take it to dr kuni. And he can save my child and he did. I think we're okay with faking the dog thing. We really are usually. We don't like he was a few hop into photo care. The actually works premature baby. Survival rates and fifteen percent before the incubates was invented and knocked and they went to seventy five percent in his time is really amazing but the really nice thing is that some of these babies will still be alive today. We talk about as though it's a historical thing but in two thousand fifteen. Npr in the usa. They interviewed lady. Who was about ninety. Four years old at the time called lucille horn and she had been one of the coney island babies born in one thousand nine hundred. Eighty like you say. Dan have had had no other option. Hospital wasn't providing the right care so he wrapped towel took to martin cuny who put her in one of the incubators and was being interviewed aged ninety four after that she went back later in life and introduced herself to him. That is to be one of your babies. Which is nice. The most wonderful thing for me about this story is that Lucille kernan horn. She was a twin and her twin died and she was prematurely born and they were told this is not going to happen so he rushed the child to dr kuni and had them put him the incubator as you say she died ninety six years old and when she died she was buried at the evergreen cemetery in brooklyn next to her twin sister. She was told she was going to be. The parents were told she was going to be buried next to immediately after they in fact told the parents to hold off on the funeral because they would be bearing two children. Another thing about the kids who were in these incubators is extremely high. G think 'cause they all graduated incredibly early because they graduated from the incubators. They had a prophet graduation ceremony. So this is part of the show when you say proper. How properly token a nonsmoker eating from the st louis. World's fair in. I think that was ninety. Four wasn't a and it was talking about these twins. Jack and catherine who'd been in incubators their lives have been saved and they get dressed up in special specially bought new gowns slash clothes and dresses the cradles a decorated in flags and bunting and everything and big crowds invited it. And then they'll give him little paper. Diplomas okay poces. My benchmark south probably. I mean to be all. that's probably. How doubts cody got his. But the like say the original uphold. This stuff was in europe. Wasn't it and it was this guy. Alexandre de liano lion and then it was cooney who kind of talk on and then took it to the states But he was so popular with his things that he called child hatcheries and they wrote drinking songs about him pro about how he was saving children. Yeah and the reason. His incubates was so much better than any of the other ones that they had is. Because you didn't really need to give any attention. It's all you could put the baby in that and it would be fine Because all you have to do is feed at a wash. It was like watts pipes. That went underneath. The would keep it warm and then there was like at pipes would pump the after that to keep them kind of plenty of there as well. Yeah because maybe we should say why it is. The premature babies needs to be incubated And it's just that they've left the room early plant. And so you try to simulate the womb essentially aren't you and is a very stable environment around you huge of warmth which you wouldn't normally get as i think sometimes when you have to improvise incubator if you can't get to the hospital on time or So i think there was a story of a nurse to transport premature baby to hospital and she improvised an incubator by fitting one box inside of another and then filling the gap with hot water. And so you just got warn them up and keep. The environment was recently anna. Faris an amazing. Because that's how a lot of the early ones operated in essence. When was this guy and he paid eighteen hundred nine guys fast pace so that was a guy review before even things so there was some from the eighteen thirties woods and then one of the really successful one was a french trickled steph and tunny and his inspiration was going to the zoo because incubators for eggs and he then worked with zoos instrument maker who a guy called montan that was based on hot water as well and you know double wolves filled with sawdust to provide the temperature stability but yeah nothing nothing like as effective was it really negligible impact compared when he naturally incubator yes leon and they did waste also when so in the alexander lion incubator which z. Say about fifty thousand people came and looks paid. Pay the these babies and its first year. When people came in there was a report journalist. Very bassett first. So funny how journalists write in a different way in one hundred years so this is eight thousand ninety six and he said it was very annoying because lines explaining science incubator and suddenly were interrupted by this wailing child and it was described as an insignificant lump that was disturbing neighbor. It was it was hustled into a glass window. Apartment called a baby's dining by one of the nurses and then a nurse put powder on its face with a powderpuff which i found so confusing. And he said she put powder on his face to bring him to a state of immaculate perfection even though the baby was screaming and crying and then gave some milk. I think this was just once a day. They made them up just to stop the in so read from all the screaming and stuff. It's coming soon. Russia because medically we wanna see that the looking like they're having a good time though the premature right if it turned into a horror show. You'd have it shut down like what was going on with these babies. So yeah you just want to make sure they find. Do you know what i'm kuni. When he accepted children and again this is a guy who as far as we know was not an actual doctor. He would pay them and lukewarm water. And then if they were capable the article i read said they were given a small dose of brandy. Then they went in. But that's i mean for for premature baby. I dunno like maybe thing if you haven't even supposed to be born yet Lead i normally don't have anything to six. Pm i think is quite a good rule. Isn't it but coming out of eleven tolerance. yeah i mean not just. The absolute definition of it was a different time in the baby's just given alcohol laos just the way it was In terms of what we're talking about it being a different time la which definitely was this is. I'm going to quote directly from the atlantic. He wrote a brilliant article about the the corneal babies. Here we go now. The visitors coney island approached kunis incubators with combination of excitement and confusion. The doctor was frequently asked where he obtained the eggs. Just stated in the incubators and he got the occasional request to have sexual intercourse with the incubator device in an attempt to conceive so people thought that like a chicken incubates a you an egg in that it would side into a child but they also knew that children cave sperm and eggs and so they decided to say well. You can have some ice. Bob if you need it always i. I'm just quoting. I'm not getting into it beyond that people apparently sometimes what it adds the incubators if they were good looking incubators. Well it's just an act of generosity. isn't it they. They think they're doing the favor. The i will inseminate. This incubates people men. We're talking about gross bed. Women do it is whether whether debates a comes from. It's the debates comes from masturbaters because same process so coney island which is where. Obviously you know. The one of these big exhibitions was. I was looking up a few the things that they had at coney island one of the things they had that was a recreation of the bow war by thousand soldiers including veterans from both sides and it was it happened to will three years after the actual pivotal battle. What had happened. They would recreations and soldiers loved it because they were being paid. They weren't being shot at that was zero risk of dying and they would doing a show now and they had to pause it once a day because there was a horse race happening there by at the horses at the horse. Race got freaked out by over gunfire so they had to temporarily pulls the will recreation next traits. They've i'm sure they did. Yeah just sounds crazy. Sigmund freud big fan of coney island only thing about america that interests me is coney. Island is a quote from. He was obsessed by the idea of the debauchery that was going on behind the scenes. There he said it was almost like an epicenter of hedonism and sexuality he incubating so yeah was mangone. That's incubates to remind you of your father stuff about a stop the podcast. Hello everybody this week you wanted to let you know is sponsored by hellofresh. Yes hellofresh now you all know who hellofresh. They are the meal delivery service that gives you a box that is full of delicious ingredients which she can just russell up into something wishes foods. That's right and the ingredients are probably stuff that you don't withhold the recipes the things that you don't always come across so it's a good way to expand your repertoire. If you're a budding chef and convince your friends that you are able to cook indeed. 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That's right so use the code fish sixty percents off your first box and thirty five percent of your next three boxes by going to hellofresh dot co dot uk okay. I'm with the podcast on a okay. It is time for our final the show and that is an my this week. Is that giving someone. The finger has been an insult for two thousand three hundred years old. And i just love that. I love the go back. Two thousand three hundred years to athens and state your middle finger up on some be offended. It's a good deficit. if you're ever going back in time it really is. Yeah i think the reference we have is from fourth century bc in athens. And it's from diogenes who we've mentioned before big old character and and it was recorded the someone said to him someone in the crowd said to him hey wisdom obscene as i love demosthenes as in or famous hours at the most days and janis though as with shit and so he said oh. There goes the great demagogue sarcastically. Wall gesturing with his middle finger at him and it was given on down in this report. That was very rude. Way to gesture pointing thing. There's another theory behind it. As he was saying here is demosthenis and he saying that he is my middle finger because my middle finger looks like a penis of these is a big old penis. Nice nice could've a double meaning just an ron. From the time you got ancient rome. It was digital's impute focus on digital impudent. They probably would have such as in literally indecent to unchaste figure two main such finger. That's another thing you can ask for in a phone box. You do like an unchaste king. I just love the. I love the time travel element that it's sort of like i'm so pissed off in the year. Twenty twenty one about this play. I'm just going to go back. And just give them the finger just a fuck you and your play. This is bullshit and they'll get it. There's no there's no translation issues Yeah perfect it was much than some place. In our stephanie's he wrote in his plate piece he wrote about giving someone the finger but he used the word escott mollison to mean sticking a finger up That comes from a word which means to shove a finger into a bird's amos That was the one that he used to mean to show the finger to give you needed. Yeah well by what you think. For instance she might need to put your finger up a bad sinus cavity search out la no not that custom snow. Think to declare mr pigeon. You get breakfast and you're getting ready and patient and it hasn't laid yet so you just go in there so that's pretty much it is. Apparently this was the thing the people do to check. If a chicken was about to lay an egg you would stick your finger into. It's closer to see if it was ready. And the was a word for in greek and them not leads became a word for an insult of giving someone the finger. So you know how we were saying that it's a penis gesture. Dodge was using the gesture he was saying. This is a penis. There is a theory i. I'm not sure how families that. I'm just as we use our fingers to represent a penis squirrel monkeys in south america. Use the penises as a finger. So they have these gestures erect penises. To show dominance desmond. Morris's there isn't a suit. Claimed the comparison but it makes kind of sense they do. It is sort of go away to rivals. So they don't penal erection know. Play directions with the penises saw if the plane cricket they say someone's out by sticking penis i don't even think they can play cricket trees. It's weird isn't it. the i did you guys read this. And i don't know if i've been had but the idea of thumbs up in afghanistan is virtually the middle finger that we would we would present to each other and i'd never heard that before and i know different countries have their variations but places Because it's like the loved above basically is genuinely offensive. It's close control. Pause thing in the nineteen. Th was a minister in bangladesh whereas very offensive. So it's quite a lot of medicine countries in west africa but in bangladesh as well. A minister gave a thumbs up at the end of parliamentary session. And i couldn't work. It was quite westernize minister. Who picked up thumbs up in a friendly way. It seemed like it was and he was like. Hey good job guys. Well done and those scandal afterwards. Where i think the prime minister's like this guy's carter apologized is outrageous on that. So yeah it is interesting when you consider the the top sort of. Let's say the president's the president of the united states prime minister of uk that is the preferred hand signal in a photo. But they know that that is like effectively sending a message to countries were in trouble with. Let's say that's always mentioned which the richard nixon once made a similar mistake when he stepped off a plane in south america. There's one of his vice president in the fifties and he did the sign for like a-ok where you put your thumb and your forefinger together in a circle. It's like a. Oh that's okay so. He stepped on a plane and he did that. And in south america. That is very bad. It's got scatalogical Implications and is insulting and in stewart. She was very badly booze and it started the tour very badly. A i can't find any instance. I mean literally every book every article. Every history says the confines photo and be this was when america was doing seriously dodgy stuff in south america and they weren't super popular anyway. It was famous this tool for him. Beings of spicer sworn having stuff thrown him. So i think the implication the all they would just upset because he did the dot circle with the fingers gesture. It's probably concealing stuff. They were upset about as well but if anyone's going to photo i'd love to see it is repeated. Study done in twenty nine hundred about metal fingers which i really like and it was trying to work out whether the the penis connection of dodge a actually holds water and it was an experiment to testing whether the middle of primes people think about his over word okay and it was basically. They showed people participants either in a okay sign or a middle finger and then they showed them a word with a couple of letters missing. I share the p. e. n. dot dot so. The idea is that if they had seen the middle finger and then when there was shown p. and they completed it more often with penis instead of you know penny or penny or other words that began p and i'm not wasn't example of priming okay. It's the study. Showed people did not as a result. Think more about the word penis. They didn't automatically lead to a even officing a middle finger. They did is they had been shown the finger bang gesture. Which is what you put one finger into a whole. You've with your that. That did prime people to complete with a web penis. So that makes people think of venus. The other thing does not really interested in is. I would have thought that if you give people the let's his p. e. add blank blank one hundred percent of people which is right paid us every single time. About what else out of the way. I'm talking about fasting. I thought was penultimate okay and then pinned these five. Let's words sounds. I would say the dollywood i write the wet penis. The i would look quite a lot like pius. Yeah and then. How can you write them. Would move. pena's is once you've saved a mental thing that the thing. How can you underline lots of times. I really think about this now gesture which i hadn't heard of and this is i think Maybe it's middle eastern. Thing is the five fathers gesture. I don't think we've discussed this before basically bunched together five fingers on one hand and then you touch them with one finger of the other hand okay. And what the implication that. It's incredibly obscene. The implication there is that your mother had so many suitors that it's hard to know who your father is. That's happening when you do that. That's middle east. The thing that really is not want to do as you're getting off the plane very clever as if you want to be really insulting you take your shoes off. go beth and then get fifteen digits. Up against one index finger been around lock goose's had. Isn't that what you were doing a little bit You're on the on one of your hands shuttle. Yeah exactly. Yeah eating a breadstick. Basically eating of breadstick exactly do you know the word. Goose means to prod someone the bum. Do you know where that comes from. Oh interesting no Well there are two possible reasons One is that's the finger might look a bit like a goose's be called might look a bit like a goose's bake that you'll putting with On the other one is that you might cause enough nervous excitements that the person you proud makes a noise like goose of flops. Around now she'll see versions good tonight. Thank you poison thinking. Do you know the this is not a rude gesture. But it suggested that. I didn't ever think about the hang loose gesture for surfing. So if you were about to pull this as a listener right now it is. Keep your pinky up. Keep your thumb up and put the other three fingers down the surf's up the kind of and supposedly that is from hawaii and this is the story is from a guy cold homina kelly who was someone who lost three fingers. He lost those three fingers and so and he was working at a sugar mill. And that's where he lost them and so he used to do that all the time. That was his his natural state of holding his hand but he would shake it around and it was called the shocker in hawaii yes what you know. It has talia this a few theories about where it came from. He's recent i didn't have the states. But he's he's not ancient rome he's more up-to-date think that because we had that fact longtime ago about the high five was supposedly originated or popularized by man with four fingers. I just like that. That is by what one finger one thumb is kind of lucky. The he lost those fingers a not all of the fingers apart from his middle finger because then all the surface would just be flipping everyone. Yeah exactly speaking of flipping the bird which is obviously At least america. That's the term for doing giving someone the middle finger I found the most flipping the bird that could possibly ever have happened. And that was a bunch of twitches. We're watching starlings. Flying in the sky and court in this beautiful moment in a photo is a giant group of starlings sort of shaping the biggest screw hugh middle thing that has ever been caught on camera. Yes just looking back staring out as you cover. Maybe they were giving a sign that they wanted someone to check if they had given them but it is also check it out online. It's it's a group of birds flipping the bird humans. Okay that's it. That is all of our facts. Thank you so much for listening. If you would like to get in contact with any of us about the things that we have said over. The course of this podcast. We can be found on our twitter accounts. I'm on at schreiber. Land james james hawkin andy. Andrew hunter and anna polka dot com. Yep or you can go to our group account which is at no such thing or our website. No such thing as a fish dot com. We have all of our previous episodes of there. We also have links to any upcoming live shows and also linked to any youtube stuff that we have where you can see. Our faces actually looked like okay. We will be back again next week with another episode and we'll see you then guys good bye.

ireland james gilbert scott Andrew hunter murray james larkin lonzo mount everest thatcher dan usage tate modern building Gilbert scott wright wyoming George gilbert scott lisbeth gilbert scott shakespeare theatre saint pancras hotel scott shilton
Frieze: the show goes on. Plus, Theaster Gates

The Art Newspaper Weekly

59:40 min | 10 months ago

Frieze: the show goes on. Plus, Theaster Gates

"We cannot is sponsored by Christie's visit Christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction house in seventeen sixty, six auction private sales online. Anytime. Hello, and welcome to the Wiki not I'm Ben leak. It's freeze week in London yet there's no Bhagat Fair at its heart can galleries create the usual excitement and is anyone still buying? No freeze London offering masters, but it still officially freeze week in. London. With exhibitions and events being staged across the city and the now customary online viewing rooms and digital sales platforms. We talked to Louisa Buck about the arts around town antimony girls about how the markets faring without the fares. Later, Linda Jablonski talks theistic gates about his shows in London and New York before that the newspapers launched a new three part online live events series which began this week could new models for new times rethinking the art market in a changing world. The second in the series breaking boundaries local is the new global is on the fifteenth of October and you can register for this and other online events at the newspaper. Dot. com slash live now as ever a wealth of shows as opened across London four freeze week and our contemporary art correspondent Louisa Buck has been atn about seeing them. I spoke to her about some of her highlights. Louis before we start talking about individual shows, I just wanted to get a sense of the mood while you're out and about because of this is normally Of Year when there's Manik. Energy and millions of people from all over the world descend on London. But what's the mood among the galleries and museums you'll visiting I think it's very up and down to be quite honest I. Mean What's quite interesting of course you haven't got the international crowds coming in. There are not throngs of people. There is no I mean, the champagne sales are zero. There's there's no socializing. So when you go look at a show, the atmosphere is much more contemporary. Actually looking at the were talking about the work there's a sort of rush to kind of. Embrace people say hello then shrinking back again is one realizes that one has to observe social distancing. In the commercial galleries, it varies a lot from quite a sort of casual attitude to really quite strict one way or temperatures taken as you walk in. So it's mixed, but it is cautious it is sedate. It isn't frenetic you social or indeed social tool, but it is there is a seriousness people she going to art to look at art could to here and give us a sense off the kind of scope of of the shows that you'll see in because this time of year only again, because the collectors are all here because museum director's coming in from all over the world. This is the moment where the galleries choose to show their most high profile artists, their most ambitious shows. You get the sense that that's the case this year as well. I think they certainly re scheduled to coincide with an art week in early October whether freeze is going to happen not when they decided to go ahead with these shows they didn't know at the time I mean the atmosphere who knows about the buying but as I said, the looking is there and I think can people actually falling upon the looking with great seriousness the Great Bruce Nauman show that just opened at tate modern. Now. When is of course the artists artists he is such a genius. It's a great show. It's partly with the stayed licking in. Amsterdam. I'd like it to be in the whole of the floor of galleries, of course, half of its given over to. Warhol. So that's not the case. But actually what's interesting is now kind of haunts tate. They very cleverly recalibrated it partly for social distancing but I think to have now been very much within the body of takes on the ground floor. There's no was wonderful repetitive video of him, washing his hands again, and again, what could be more appropriate before you even enter the gallery he's voices piece an adaptive piece from his turbine project. You hear strange disembodied voices echoing down the stairwell above the actual exhibition. Gallery entry itself is his great neon saying the true artists helps well by revealing mystic truths of course, that sort of deeply ironic and then in you walk into nominees Judea the great time lapse piece of his studio with cameras scrutinizing the space when he is absent from it. So you're immersed in the artist's studio, and of course. So much of now work is about what the Hell Dr is doing the studio what resources to draw their body, the immediate things that come to hand nominees the most inventive artists. And, one phase in his work for example, costing space underneath his chair is a whole career for likes of Rachel Whiteread. So you've got this kind of protein feeling you engine studio, and then you go through this show with really wonderful installations but also works that in our feeble insecure beleaguered moment really do speak for the. Times I mean nowadays work is so much about you know about giresse about cruelty about humor about the body he caused his own hands and early work that takes on new resonance there's amazing. Insulation anthro socio you've got this bald headed man actor not Naaman shouting feed me, help me eat me gun me project to drown the walls on monitors insomnia feeling the spotless beleaguered body is here. So nominee taken on new resonance. It's a great show and it's a great show for our times. He may be a white male, but boy is it important? White Male? I'm very that data sharing him and is their big. Show. For this moment sort of sets the tone away as you know, a high water mark for the rest of the show is around ten. Yes it would normally cost how the Turbine Hall Project at this at this point, and they haven't they still a very wisely got our walkers great fountain. So that has been putting in on the back burner but then another great show just opened is Michael Clarke the Barbican which is. He's been choreographer in residence of the last fifteen years and he's this great figure. I mean yes he's adults when choreographer but he's also brought together so many cultural forces I mean back in the eighties he was bringing the world of ballet into the world of punk clubbing popular culture lgbt or we called then culture working with an amazing array of artists, all of whom are very much given the foreground in this in this insulation at the Barbican I mean you walk in and there's this Amalgamation of several Charles Atlas Films About About Clark, it's a multi screen installation. So you're immersed in the world of Clark of him dancing in talking of socializing the amazing music that's played and that's Thoughts Scott on the ground for the new go up into these various sort of areas of different artists working working with Clark. Of course, you've already seen the great designer. Lee Barry, who gave so much of a look of of his of his work in the films but you see the costumes you see Sarah Lucas and him collaborating. So there's a great kind of crossover and I would say that some what's GonNa Nice there's a moment where Lucas as. Remove devoted to Michael Clark with which Lucas has made a giant sculpture sounds like a plinth upon which sits a cost of Clark's headless body sitting on a toilet, and of course, out, you go to free sculpture on the few bits of freeze that's actually happening and there is another version. This great sandwich is cement sandwich in in the grounds of Regent's Park. So it's a nice cross reference from the commercial freeze still exist in analog form and the institutional. So let's talk about free scope droopy. Is it much the same as the sort of only bit of the fair effectively GonNa hate as it normally would do well yes and out to go to regents park and it's a great way. You'll socially distance value not in a group of larger than six and you can see some great sculptures. The Luca sandwiches I said is one of my favorites because. It's so democratic. You can climb on it. It sits said instantly recognizable icon also a great piece by by Gavin Turk, large door he likes the Pan It's giant bronze open door, which is a great one for people to kind of play with with an often the different kinds of spatial encounters with that also, doors are used in a great piece by. Lubna Humid, which is five conversations were five reclaim doors painted with is great stylish women in vivid colors incorporated into the kind of form of the door. So that kind of interconnecting with each other, there's also a great piece by Rebecca Warren. Statistic Peace Richard Long Stone Circle and a piece by an outside didn't know London based on calliope limos a giant Platt. In steel like a braid of a plot that becomes a huge column like a brand cousy so that you can actually inter relate with works you in the flesh eyeball to eyeball, and that's the part of freeze that sooner absolutely as before. But then freeze is also sort of adapted itself apart from going online of calls where you can go to endless viewing rooms. But it's GonNa caulk streets and corks because back in the day when my day when I was in dinosaurs roamed the earth when I first started the art world, it was the epicenter for the art world's. The contemporary art world, then it went to fallow in a bit quiet. Now, it's massively redeveloped a lot of the galleries of left, but actually now people come back into town including. Freeze live, which is one of one of our modern. Refurbished groundfloor space spaces in in freeze, and he has been setup as institute of Melodic, healing, and there are various various installations by for example, anthea. Hamilton here in Mercer of our Barrington, which will be activated and live action will take place. In Cork Street to very small audience we will all be live streamed. So free sort of popped into Cork street as the galleries as well. sadie Coles has a show that I'm also this gallery and various other. So corporate has become kind of weirdly reanimated freeze with galleries. Putting. Almost like boots Stephen Free, but honorable mention he's just around the corner new Burlington street with a great show of of Holly Hendrie sculpture. But he's also got a pop-up in cork sheets of Denzil foresters, enormous dynamic glorious paintings of his time in school in. Rome. In the eighties we've got sort of he is known for dinner is incredible scenes of reggae clubs, and here you've got it sort of taken to old nastily incarnation from his time in Rome in the eighties. So coq St Combat Life. Thanks to freeze. Its this talk about 'em Sarah Lucas. He's old Macadamia nurse because he's got a at his own gallery. Newport street gallery in Vauxhall. He has he's showing a body of work from that first decade, which is broadly seen as most successful decade. Artistically you've been what do you think? Well, it's called of century. It seemed only a matter of time that Damian made this high end high-spec Gallery that he created. As a receptacle for his own work and it's actually I mean, it might Sandra the hubristic that. But then also extrordinary works though I mean you can see the evil Lucien of his paintings because as early painted plates, painted ponds, and then painted boxes from the from the eighties also his his collages from really when he was before he was a student even when he was really starting out in the early eighties and so you've got the. Evolution is work and then you've got some great extraordinary pieces. I mean there's a slice shark, which is a slightly early one many great spot paintings. Then that is the great great pieces. It's called a hundred years rather than thousands another version I mean but is to my mind the greatest hearst piece, which is that the veterans full of living flies, which is kind of fantastic. Memento Mori where they look they're born that the box for the eggs. Hatch they bonus round they feed on cows head and some sugar, and then they're killed in an inset to cuter. But this vitrine is full of these repulsive buzzing Dotson flies and is this sort of short life cycle. It's a great piece. There's also the enormous sculpture which could have clarion calls the end of the ninety, nine, thousand, nine, hundred, nine, him, the vast anatomical child's toy that he's blown up two colossal heights another very strange piece is vitrine stuffed animals. At the faking an auction with teddy bear auctioneer, and it'll paintings inside saying an arts about life. Not about money but I mean I would argue that actually it's probably interchangeable with him but never seen that piece before. So is kind of early retrospective of his early works into my mind the best works and seeing the evolution of these BOP pieces, the spinning paintings, the trees, all of which there is a really interesting interestingly the poll and it's for free as well. I, wanted to talk about you mentioned hearst's paintings and. His commitment to painting was pretty strong right from the start but we actually began this year on this podcast talking a lot about figurative painting and it just occurred to me that there is actually quite a lot of figurative painting happening right now in London. So you've seen some shows on. What it's really interesting and talking of hearst. One of his absolute old marcus from Goldsmiths. Gary Hume has a really I think wonderful shirts, Bruton August it's called occupy Lago paintings and it poses the problem of what does an artist whose? Formal aesthetic. Painter, due to respond to the current situation and he's taken two strands of work. One is these taken images of schools bombed schools just went when when a scenario, some a trustee that's happened in a war zone whether it be Afghanistan wherever it may be Syria often see this bombed-out schools with terrible scenes of carnage she takes will a horror out and he just reproduces the decimated schools with happy children's paintings happy Dekel in the background and abstract. It and that's one strand the others time the archipelago paintings based on the form of the life jacket, the outline where you've got this sort of the over the over over the shoulders and the void for the neck and the head, and so that abstract to becomes a sort of bio more fic- form, which it becomes like a sort of an abstract element. He hasn't his painting some of them sometimes there tangled together sometimes separately construed these very. Beautiful City pages report. There are these images of horror of loss of life. The life jackets become something else altogether you wouldn't know into know what they are but once you do see he's also made a sculpture out of almost life sized versions of them costing concrete looks like in Morgan is sculpture, but it becomes tangled mass of loss of life and loss of hope, but you also points out the void in the center of the life jacket. Is a bit like the Yo- ne- kind of female symbol signals, the vacuum, a symbol of life. So these are very exquisite but very somber works and the child's paintings on the walls of the devastated schoolrooms, a kind of cheerful but with a terrible vacuous scary feeling of of empty empty promise. So that's a really interesting series of work also says on this works by Donna shoots Thomas, Dane Big lumpen scary figures and creatures, these of humanoids that she paints. Showing how the use of painting can still render electric emotion? I mean. She's she's known for the for the causing scandal, the Whitney onto the Emmett till painting that she produced the open call skits for of of the young boy who was lynched in the sixties put this shows that she's a serious painter. This is not just about sensationalised images. This is about really grappling paint we made to say and do and Christina calls also caress produces strange obstructing bodily paintings. Showing the experience of inhabiting body but rendering it in paint. So figurative painting, it's really interesting I mean maybe it's because there is a very strong straight and painting and contemporary art at the moment as the recent Chappelle show confirmed or maybe it's because dealers are thinking. It's a safe bet painting sell who knows Thank. You very much around the. Louisa. Thanks for joining. US. Thank you. Now without the freeze fast how it galleries and auction houses responding to this moment melanie girls is an editor at large at the art newspaper and the art market columnist at the Financial Times I talked to her about how the market's getting. Melanie, the art will tends to have a certain rhythm through the year. We expect certain things to happen in certain than it's been the same pretty much for a very long time that is not happening right now is it's all over the place. Now, exactly it's It's chaos. At the moment what we'd got used to a certain events at certain times in other was happening with other events being at its. But you know you'll stay will fasten your staple auctions were always around the same time. I think it will settle because humans weeded chaos but I didn't think for a while. Just always seemed to be reasons to do things different me at the moment so. Chris just held its auction at a different time because of the US elections, we've got brexit coming heavens. What happens to the February season in London. And then very significantly, of course, as the virus I saw. This morning he sits me please come to my name on the on the twenty seventh about Tober. In London if we're open to you can't if we're not anoc Dan, you can't even clan for a couple of weeks ahead. So yeah, I. Think I. The calendar is a complete mess but you know experiments coming in left right and center. So it's it's stressful. But it could be an opportunity. So basically, this week because we've got the freeze on fair and everything else the auction houses would have had their sales in London right. But of course, because of the circumstances because of the pandemic that hasn't had a knack for there have been auctions that are sort of been a been global essentially yes. What's happened is the new coach which are meant to be in November, and only for one auction house this isn't even universal. This is what I mean by chaos. It's everyone doing their thing but the New York auctions are normally held in November. Christie's held its auction this week instead because act NEOCON which was hinted new, it was virtual so it's just A brave new world is I keep saying and you revolt in any sort of new sort of experimental format when you can i. think it does this is important because it does speak to the kind of ways because we all now in A. Situation where the event culture that normally surrounds auctions just isn't possible. So you were involved in the kind of experimental means to try and correct to sort of more event like feel around this Christie's auction, right? Absolutely, I was I was kind of beamed to to Rockefeller. Center in new. York, and sat next to someone who is in New York, we were set with someone who was a hundred yards away from him but it looked like we were all in the same room. An annual completely right. I mean events a thumb on, but they also confer value which is really important in this world the added value with earning all. The parties in the private views and people are trying to find ways to to create that. I honestly think it's impossible. The moment to replicate I didn't think anyone has managed to him and I had great fun working with Christie's in an in an alternative reality when I have people asking me all you. Oh Wow. You're in New York it's like, no. But but I didn't think great technologies is yet that the magic bullets An auction auction in fact works quite well as a TV show I mean they had something like two hundred and eight thousand viewers, a lots of platforms, but that's not the same as violence. So I just I just that to reinvent the wheel. Every time auction everyone has to every fair we see online has to have some novelty value To generate the sense of occasion. And this the most exciting thing wasn't me pretending to be in New York domestic citing thing was the auction of one hundred, Sixty, seven, million, year old dinosaur. But I don't know if you can do that all the time. So yeah. The proof I guess he's always going to be in the pudding. How did how did the actual auction do? It was okay. Then I think you need to sell. More than three, hundred, million dollars of art wants the premium is added in a week that you know president trump is in and out of hospital and we are in the middle of virus. You know it wasn't bad but I think they probably would have wanted it to have gone a bit better choice. So they sort of reached low estimate essentially. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Thanks to a dinosaur. So, let's talk about the dealers and the online viewing room so We've heard from Louisa Buck, about what's on in London? There is a dynamic series of exhibitions and everything else but it's interesting because we used to in this week getting sales reports from galleries at the fairs, and these are often with lots of seven-figure, maybe even more sums in them. There are sales reports emerging aren't there. So tell me what they're telling you. Yeah. I've just got a long list of says I mean we're on day two I think of freezes lovie are and I got a long list of sales I mean, what's that? They sold fifteen million dollars worth on day one. Including Bradford. So three point, five, million dollars, which is, which is pretty high. But I mean loads of governors on this list. You. Tanya connector has sold Oliver Lasts and Sarah say analyst Saban Gillian wearing mooring pay at eighteen thousand pounds Goodman Gallery Kentridge six, hundred, thousand dollars. So it's unit sales all coming in as they did in a way it's just a question of really how how the galleries all using these reveals because it's not so different from failure would always get day one sales, but a lot of them have been negotiated beforehand and so on and so forth. So. You'd get now something a little bit different but the galleries a using the overalls a bit like an advert. In a newspaper, I mean unfortunately their biggest competitors. The newspaper. That paying they're paying four thousand, nine hundred pounds to share in having to use it in a wide sway bright. But at least. One of the things I was wondering about Olis' Does it give you greater insight into some of that sort of behind the scenes stuff. That's always the subject to speculation as you know, how much of this is negotiated from to what extent is a is a booth in a fair, just very, very advanced form of advertising or you know all real new sales made in the booze and to an and how many what proportion is actually sales and what proportion is sort of pre negotiated that comes to feel that you're getting any insight through the VR and the fact that the fares themselves on that she. Got Anymore true in sight except you pointed out to match David's WanNa, put out a list of sales this week from three different channels. So from the freezer. From that own website and from that Gallery Show That is interesting. Think that people are a little more honest about from where the sales are happening but that's as much to drive traffic to their and website to be honest. But no I think it's as much of a mystery. You know I'm still told day one overall sales of this in the same way as I was told day one free sales of this. It's a, it's not an acceleration, a continuation. And I've asked Louisa what the mood in the gallery she was visiting was like, what's the mood music from galleries dealers the eappen speaking to just about the health of the market Dealers are always optimistic and I. I'm quite impressed by how about this topic may still an how active people but I. Think. This is this week in London I. Think There's a bit of a fair I saw the they altered by emily singer earlier today and she says a bit of a fair going back to the calendar that we're all kind of busy busy busy until the end of October. And then it gets awfully quiet. There's almost nothing that is happening certainly not in the in Europe or the US. and so people really I think the fear is okay. What would ticking by where we have our hybrid sales galleries but we? We don't know what happens next season. We haven't seen the worst of right now. Curiously, there has been an fair happening this week you've been visiting tell us the one, fifty, four off air. So tell us where is it and what does it look? Yeah, it's. It's always been in Somerset and it is in Somerset House again and I think working with a place that knows how to function as an institution has probably helped it open. Only twenty nine galleries, which is relatively small for not fat, but it's great to go. It's great to see people. It's amazing to see all I mean I found that I'm looking at emceeing textures unnoticed sing layers in a way I never I probably never used to do because I'm so used to saying things on a flat screen recently. I spent more than two hours that which again for twenty nine galleries is is it's the inverse of what you do on a navy seal. See this ticketed entry. Say Small, of course. Quite, convoluted one way system, which is all fine. That's what they have do. The only problem is if you've forgotten to ask someone something, we'll take effect of something you have to go all the way round again, but it's fine. It's across two wings. They opened to be peace at ten o'clock. This morning on it was busy in each is David was there and everyone's quite. Galvanized it to do their best and excited to see each other galleries. Super happy to be there some of them. You know there's a New York gallery who has a local contact in London, who is still doing manning the booze for them because they physically come they could they a lot of people have quarantine for two weeks? but yeah, everyone's pretty pretty upbeat. Just just to be here you talk about sort of galvanization. We've heard about the galleries whatsapp groups during the lockdown where they were all in touch with each other and helping each other and all that kind of stuff. Is there a sense you think that the art market has somehow become more of a community through all this or is that just the sort of headline galleries want us to think I'd anything there's a spirit of collaboration because it's in everyone's interest. We all do well, I didn't think anyone I didn't you know the bigger galleries might not want that immediate competitors to do as well as them, but they don't want people to fail right now and you definitely didn't want people lower down the food chain to fail because that's that's all future Whether or not anything has yet worked from from a galvanizing point of view I'm not sure yet. I think at the moment everyone's sort of doing what they used to do online and a bit being nice tweet each other. But I think watch this space. I think that will be more things happening I. Think now we've realized this is a temporary blip. We are going to see I think galleries in particular. Really finding ways to come together and do something that makes money. Thank you so much for coming on and too. Much for having me Ben. Thank you. you can visit our freeze. We might Christine with the latest analysis and a guy, the key events at the newspaper. Dot Com Lindy you've Lansky talks to fiesta gates about his new transatlantic exhibitions in a moment. But first, here are a few of the top stories on the newspaper's website this week. The rumpus over the postponement of the Philip guston exhibition in three. US museums and the Tate in London continues to create headlines The director of the Tate and the National Gallery of art in Washington of outline their reasons for the postponement as Gareth Harris writes came in Feldman Director of the National Gallery of Art told the hyper allergic podcast that it felt like this was a tough time in America to do this exhibition. Particularly at this moment stressing the show cannot forward with walkie rhetorical teams. Meanwhile, the director of the Tate added in a letter to The Times newspaper in London. The preceding would not have been possible for financial and logistical reasons. France's National Assembly voted on Tuesday to possibl returning twenty seven colonial artifacts from French museums to Benin and Senegal as Anisimov. Rights. If enacted, the bill would compel Frantz to pretend twenty-six works looted from Benin's Royal Palace currently in the collection of Music Apron Jacques Chirac in Paris and assume would return permanently to Senegal. Francis Music. Dilemma. And finally, the latest postponement of an art fair as Anna Brady writes tae fast in Maastricht will be late next year from mid March until the end of May take off said in a statement that move allows the globe luck immunity to boost securely and safely come together in person at Pfaff an at the height of a European control season. You could read these stories and much more at the out newspaper, DOT COM or online at s which can get from the APP store. We'll be back after this. We cannot is sponsored by Christie's these October Chris Percent Classic week, as a hybrid sale series with ten live online auctions of elegant timeless pieces ranging from a strong collection, of Dutch landscape and the enviable collection of decorative arts from Jane Rights, men to Roman. Marbles rare, edition of Shakespeare's first folio and Louis Armstrong's trumpet alongside Classic Wake The prints and multiples department will online only sale dedicated to Francis to is Capriccio. Discover and bid on ray of extraordinary works that define and standards of cross. MANSHIP. Find out more on Christie's. Welcome back before we hear from Fiesta Gate don't forget to catch up with the newspapers focused brush with featuring in-depth artist interviews and subscribe to hear new episodes. In the coming weeks you can do that at Apple podcast, spotify, Amazon or wherever listening. Now Fiesta Gates has two exhibitions opening this week in New York and London the to related shows feature works across a range of materials including brick reliefs. Paintings using tar LASCO works in glazed and five clay and a number of works when his spine series using bound volumes of the African American magazines, Ebony and jet contributing editor in New York Linda Jablonski spoke to Gates about the two shows and he's going community projects with these organization rebuilt foundation based in his native Chicago. Let me just say that. Ti. For those who don't know although I'm sure everyone does the astor has exhibited in cities all this country in Europe in by annuals in galleries and museums over the last ten years but this show. Titled Vessel. Is his first solo show in New York City Simultaneously Somehow through the magic of I don't know what you're opening a show of related work the same day. This. Saturday the tenth of October in London White Cube. Gallery. So this means at least people in New York and London both can see what you've been up to during the months of the pandemic shutdown which seems to have been a lot. Yup. I mean six months of non travel. That's like four years. That's four artist years I mean. I've been to your studio in Chicago I know how big it is and I assume you have lots of assistance but. For this show for this material you were all alone. Is that true? Yeah. Well, the studio doesn't have lots of assistance. Anymore that model no longer works for me during this time, we've had to builders working with me off site and I really mean it that that the six months that was preceded by. Three or four months at the American Academy in Rome in. So that that period of time of focused attention on a set of projects I've not had that in this last decade. Inside admit. If I had all day to read. Say there were days. Can read for the whole day and the next day that I could conceive of whole dot Taurel treaties. During that period. But it was just so nice to be in Rome and have a Roman Day. Feel like three days. You know. Into a day of research. Really, really be a huge gift, and so I was able to come back to Chicago with pretty crystallized ideas that just needed to be executed. And Lots of new kind of ripe convictions about what it means to be making. winemaking felt important to me and stuff. And so the new tar paintings came out of that. Okay. So if for the benefit of our listeners, let's talk about what exactly is in this show there are different. Chapters that unfold as as one goes through the gallery. Beginning with. Our I don't know you can tell me if they're the newest works you've made or or made before the brick reliefs that are hanging on the wall in the front row of the gallery. Yeah. So the the brickworks, our new, the brick release, our new. But. The exploration in ceramics isn't new. Okay. So let's I would like to go through this. The way one sees the show, which is it'd be beginning with one tar painting and will explain that in a second. And these wall reliefs, there are abstract works made of bricks. Is this the first time we worked with brick? Well, no. In a way, the brickwork has gone from you know making small bricked installations that would appear on a pallet strapped up kind of brick as a formalized object, a minor Carl Andre perhaps, and then they started to evolve. From hand making breaks at the studio to being involved in a production environment with a brick manufacturer. In North Carolina, where they were taking a colored bricks that they weren't gonNA use and they were taking all of that that colored clay material, putting it in a hopper adding additional of manganese dioxide and black stay, which would make the bricks black mixing that to extruded kind of minute black brick. And so in some ways, the brig work is is a direct engagement with like an industrial reclamation as much as it is taking on the mind tristen investment in building as a way of reclaiming space and restoring space. So in this case. Goes in didn't need a brick situation but I thought when you enter the space having these brick sculptures function as sculptures, and maybe it's just the material clay. You don't know that it's brick. It doesn't function like a brick on the wall that it felt like the right on introduction to the rest of the exhibition they struck me the there. Each one of these has a different arrangement, some of which they have a texture. As well as a Patina or a glaze but they almost look like you've worked them by hand as you would with clay I don't know how you got those effects but. It also reminded me or made me think of they were like many land art projects. They look like something you'd see from the air. Flying over. A piece of land and the suddenly this structure. Yup I had a lot of fun trying to imagine the highest sculptural use. For the lowest sculptural material and in. So in that way, you know that they're bricks but in fact, it's just clay clay made into a square. Becomes a potentially a modular material but for me, it's really like all how can I take this material? and. Encourage encourage into new things or demonstrate that it's actually as important material to contend with as any other material that would be in a in a conventional art. Situation. The brick can win hanging with these works as one tarp painting. What you call tar paintings and tar is one of the materials who've been working with for a long time you're. Somewhat autobiographical reference to your father who was a Roofer. And so I've seen some of your previous tar paintings which were a different scale and a completely different gesture. It seems to me and these are painted have pigment enamel paint on them as well as while they're tar paper what not tar paper The torch down, you call it it feels necessary to kind of describe the evolution of roofing. Maybe in a in the fifties, sixties and Seventies. People used an asphalt paper. So. They would mop the roof with hot tar hot hot vitamin, and then they would lay out A. An asphalt kind of paper. Then they would tar over that paper overlapping the paper. Then you would tar the entire move after that, and it would be like putting Shellac on top of a hardwood floors. Over time, the building industry started to use a rubber material that was thicker and it was backed by tar. So that people would then take a torch. Towards the back of the roof, the rubber material to activate the tar and then laid that material. So it was a, it was a dig material that was much more consistent in kind of kept the water out better. But over about the last five years, I've been trying to play with this material like how do I use torch down and realize that I could. Painted and the intrigue the material. As. A kind of collage material. And use my torch as kind of adhesion device, and then we started playing again with older roofing material. Torching it it pulling those parts apart putting them back together and then assembling essentially new painting with these old roofing materials the vessel. Selves the ceramic works you started. I would say you started in life singing in the choir at your church but pottery is what you went to school for. So working with clay was the first thing you did as an artist but you also and you also studied in Japan the works initial. Have references to west African sculpture as well, and you also studied urban planning simultaneously with part part making. Yeah Planning Planning with the main thing and clay was like the little side thing. I'm a minored in in studio art, but it feels important voted to at least mention urban planning, and if we were take the disciplinary title away, we will be left with a person who studied the formation of cities in the management of cities. And the management of cities through governance and administration whether that Administration is public administration private administration like. Development Corporation. Councils, of planning. Departments of labor, streets and sanitation in the value of of studying or planning then is that you become a little bit of a kind of. Poet of the construction of cities the city feels like a form that's valuable but it's also you're operating. At a level of. That's hundreds of millions of dollars a year in order to keep the city working. And so what happens when you give a potter good administrative skills to be poetically reflective on the city then the potter was to break rooms the potter wants to build quarries. The Potter wants to create wealth for the poor. You deploy those administrative skills that help you poetically reimagined the city you can. You can deploy those skills in super pragmatic ways. Well, let's talk about the pragmatic ways you've done that with the rebuild foundation where you have taken derelict houses on the south side of Chicago neighborhood that is and beautiful absolutely impeccable filled with joy and kindness and resilience in beauty. I think you've brought that out with the houses that you bought renovated and re- purpose for the community with your other. Activity, which is collecting or collections You bought the contents of a doctor wax record store that had gone out of business a bookstore filled with books relating to architecture and turn them into kind of libraries accessible to the public most spectacularly. There's the Stony Island Arts Bank which I visited once and have never stopped thinking about consists amazing. It is a library, it's a reference center and it's alive and it has an exhibition space and I it's fascinating to look at the material there. Some of this has entered into the show I saw goes in in this tower of books of bound volumes of. You bought the the print run of the magazines from the Johnson. Publishing Company of jet and I also started hunting. For Ebony and jet magazines all over the world I started buying out inventories in Atlanta became obsessive. I became a collector. I. Mean. I wish I could afforded like three or four engine Deca crosby's paintings but you know I just kind of took the things that were around him. I wanted to say on record that rebuild, which I'm extremely excited and proud of has done. A lot of things but I don't want to neglect the fact that my studio we buy buildings we by building so that we could use them so that when their interns in the summer, there's a place to stay so that if we if we were to have a good week and a person needs to like crash, they don't have to grass in my bid, they can crash next door. We buy buildings to to demonstrate. that. Blog wealth is willing to invest in a black neighborhood while black. And, that in that black wealth isn't just a hedge fund investing in white space in that artists are more likely to take more risks than most other people embedding neighbourhood because artists are constantly creating. A crude value. For themselves, not just financial value. Telling about understanding how a building has value beyond the ability to buy and sell it and flip it. But a building has inherent value. Because it means that I can do more of the things that I love. I could store more of the things that I love I could care for more of the people who I love. I wanted to say rebuild and the studio had been actively restoring buildings and in some cases restoring them not just for some kind of grand. Mission Statement. You know did you can put on a logo or in get people that sympathetically give money restoring them because the the spaces are beautiful and I have a fetish I. Have a fetish beautiful space empty space. non-productive Space Holy Holy Space I don't want the word to be perceived as a missionary project. The work is actually space theory. This is this is. This is lethal. It's very obvious when you even not even have to be in these spaces even just reading about them. Or looking at images of them is that you come to this urban planning. Let's say this reclamation project and you're reclaiming not just spaces or archives, but also creating or maintaining. Layers of history of that community and that era that would otherwise be lost in. That are so important just as a human connection that you come to this science of urban planning as an artist as you were saying as a poet and it is really different at different than what you know an administrator or politician or an economist will vendor. This point you're making is actually quite important to me that when we when we talk about the challenges that black communities have around black and brown communities around the world. But particularly in the not the united. States. If you go back and you look at all of the systematic undoing that happened, FBI scandals of them infiltrating black organizations pitting people against each other assassination crack. The influx of military weapons, import black places in there they ll ability very little cost. If you WANNA take all of the phenomena of that I would say what actually happened was kind of deep spiritual erosion. So that the family gets jacked up, you don't have the church anymore the archdiocese is jacked. You know all of the the social infrastructure that would have caught little bobby in spanked him on his but an incentive onto mom and mom hang out his button and bobby wouldn't do it again, all abet social infrastructure is gone and at the same time people are saying this nuclear family shit is a thing of the past. Oh, God is dead. WHO NEEDS IT? Oh, you know this is a land who needs to eat at home anymore. Stupid. You know hang out in it what you end up with. Is a seemingly sophisticated secular environment but an environment where the all of the all of the netted work. Is unedited. So part of the project to me has be lacing back emotional social and spiritual webs even in advance of sometimes new construction. So as I, can we have a place where we just eat together? Or read together or just be together. And that if you can, if you could make those kinds of spaces, actually think that it does more than people give it credit for. You know. If someone asking do you think your projects are making impact? Doesn't matter because if you're only gauging impact by bricks and mortar, it does matter. But do I think that people WANNA be around each other more and longer in black space as a result of the space that I build? Yes. Then a person who would never consider living where I live could then say I could see myself here and what makes them want to say that is something that's invisible. It's not something visible, and so the word eggos IAN is also trying to get at that invisible energy that is present. When we're cool visible things happe- talking about a communal experience and nuclear families you grew up in a family with nine children. You're the youngest and you're the only boy. And I would like to ask you if having eight sisters older sisters in any way contributed to this world view that you have. Well, maybe maybe that that very thing reinforces my point that. We all live together in this, a four unit apartment building that my parents own in my older sisters had their own apartments you know but part of my survival was that building and then, and then another part of my wiring was these these nine or ten personalities that were hard wiring me to to love to be kind to respect women you know to want to be better. So I think this idea that there was a there was not the proximity that the architecture gave us. Then there was the kind of emotional richness. That my sister's gave yeah. That makes you may be preoccupied with things that other people aren't preoccupied. I would like to ask the this tower of books. They're bound volumes of the magazines which are in a wooden structure with the spines on the inside, and you can enter Itch So the outside the shelves are open and I couldn't help it. I. Took one down look through it. Which? I'm not sure visitors to the gallery can do it was a little like being back in this stony island art spank and looking through the books there. You know I'm a white American from the north and I grew up reading lots of magazines and I remember being aware of jet in Abadi but I don't know that I'd ever actually seen one and there was this parallel. History of America in the Mid Century America that was that I didn't know anything about I. Didn't know those people I didn't know those places. I didn't know those activities. It was fascinating and also made me feel small because there was so much I didn't know and yet coexisted with what I did know and a whole culture. I didn't know about even that was beyond music and books is. This. Snapshot of life. Yeah I. Mean it's reasonable to say that blackness parallel universe for song. I would also say that in this case, the kind of cultural specificity that the the piece called New Egypt that new Egypt offers it's intended to function like. A kind of Holy Grail of the Black American experience. You know the floor of the floor of new Egypt is. The Altar Center from Saint Lawrence. Church. And maybe in my mind the warfare that. Europeans have been lauded for. As as Rome conquered other parts of the world. So, much of that warfare included the dismantling the burning, the pillaging of people's libraries in the assassination of their scholars and the kind of dismantling of Millennia generations of of intelligence so that people wouldn't even know the tremendous legacy that they. Are Inherent. And so I think that in some ways, these two works, one new Egypt, and then the other kind of the spine works walking prayer they're trying to talk to each other about in this case Carnegie's. Desire to see the everyday person had access to reading and literature and knowledge by by setting up these libraries all over the country, and in fact, other parts of the world kind of monopolists commitment to pedagogy in education. In the oven truth that. So much of the world's knowledge has been pillaged. Through warfare and the spoils of war. So that. The people who have had extreme knowledge might forget it in a generation. So. I think this commitment to building libraries, if feels like it also feels like kind of intellectual impulse. Not. Emotional spiritual impulse of a person with a path analogy the like I'd like to imagine. That I had the ability to rebuild a black nation that would be a small a small part of that, but but the task should know lesbian ambitious task. What, what is in the shower in? London. London is is is more specifically about how I respond to the Johnson Publishing Company with new works so. This this carpet remnant that is from the original Johnson Publishing Company building. Becomes the launching pad for a body of new spine works. There's a tribute to Josef Albers with a series of words called homage to the square which Albert's was deeply invested in in a way it was a way of playing out his color theories through squares is so I take on Johnson Publishing Kinda, black modernist color strategies with the Joseph whose. Square in mind and so text heavy exhibition but it's one that I'm really proud of the fact that these things are both manifesting at the same time. I almost wish they were both in a museum that people could get to wish the galleries could even maybe talk more so that people recognize the two shows as a kind of continuing. Thank your theanswer. Thank you so much. Casey's exhibition black vessels custodian at five five, five West Twenty Fourth Street New York from the tenth. Of October the nineteenth of December, his exhibition sweet square of dark abyss is at white online and freeze online until the sixteenth of October and you see the works in Sweet Square of Dhaka base in real life at White Cube Berman's is viewing room note you need to book an appointment. And that's it for this week subscribed to the. NEWSPAPER OF COM COMA subscribing the top left of page, and you'll find a range of subscriptions. So at the top of the page funding to subscribe to our various newsletters. Subscribe to this podcast and a brush with if you haven't already see gives a rating review if you've enjoyed. You can also find us on twitter at Tanno and facebook and instagram cokes. The we cannot is produced by Judy hops get do. Track baby. Be Editing and sound. design. Thanks to Louisa Melanie. Lindor. Fiesta. and. We'll see you next week. The, we cannot is sponsored by Christie's visit Christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction house seventeen, sixty, six, auction, private sales online. Anytime. Soon.

London New York New York City Louisa Buck Christie US Chicago Sarah Lucas Rome Louis Armstrong Europe Rachel Whiteread Naaman director Bruce Nauman tate modern Linda Jablonski Warhol Amsterdam
Autumn preview

Monocle 24: Culture with Robert Bound

32:19 min | 2 years ago

Autumn preview

"Hello and welcome to Monaco on culture with me found on the program today. We're looking ahead to an exciting and dare I say cultural awesome to find out by the end of this next half hour join me on the program today are Peter White's international co editor deadline writer and curator Francesca Gavin and the broadcast anti impeach George. Welcome to the program love to have you here before we dive into the autumn season of mist. Mellow fruitfulness have yet cultural summers. Georgie yes okay you said that you've not having run what has been some highlights that that a lot of festivals festival out went to Bulgaria to festival yup went around the UK. Yeah Gary and morning after like beat you mean the sunrise is a just insane it was the festival is actually on top of a mountain so wouldn't do that. Yes I've had a a pretty mixed. I guess it's been quite google. Georgie FAB Cagey about it comes back. I can't imagine some abandoned beautiful cultural not quite Georgia my way I used to do festivals it would ever be considered going oh into say a skunk noise bands in intense in Wiltshire box. You Okay Yeah Nice you carry that you carry that into the summer okay. It's we noticed pieces on using one headphone here in Israel then a little bit of daylight in opponent broadcasting magic. Thanks Pete Fan. I'm sure you've had a nonstop pitiful. Well Costa Summer gives highlight okay. I've had very little culture the summer which is a huge change for me. I had to four weeks lying by a pool. I forgot that that's even a thing but the one cultural thing I did was the factory and incredible private collection which is the public in the low photon islands of the north of Norway Nice Peter. You've come up with a grab bag of cultural brilliant Sunday your arm. We're starting with the kind of brand new thing from Apple's plus TV of set that like an old person. Let me just in in lightness plays Internet. What would tell you well yeah. The big news of the last week has been apple. TV finally announced when they're launching and how much they're going to be charging for this new service that they've been talking about for for a couple of years four ninety ninety nine a month which is lower than than some of the others admittedly they're not going to have as many shows as as some of the others November first is launch day and they're big a new show the thing that the most people talking it's the morning show which stars Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon Steve Carell Montjeu class so that's the thing that they're hoping will allowed you know we'll be their house of cards and how they how they doing this. Are they streaming this that they kind of dropping an episode a week old school or is it is it is sort of binge worthy. Were the Binge Ready Service. It's going to be a bit of both. They're planning on launching a few episodes a week so you're not. GonNa get every episode at once but similar you can be having opportunity to to watch a couple of times. I think okay well. Let's let our listeners decide if those the sheen of apple quality such thing exists about the morning show his eight seconds to you to her good morning. I'm bringing you some sad and upsetting news and while I don't know the details of the allegations to me under the bus Mitch Kessler my co host and partner of fifteen years was fired today a little bit of a flying from Monaco twenty four match Shit Apple expecting the wrong medicine. It's a story about Matt Lauer. He had the button under his yes. It's sort of in that world. It's Steve Carell plays this guy who's been fired. We don't quite know what he's done yet but Jennifer Aniston's his co-anchor ends up having to do with it at the same time having to deal with witherspoon character who is sort of new face who's coming to to threaten her job and it is quite a famous introduction from from unscreened town so the show around to all the different credits talks to some of the people that are cameras as much as in front of them yeah and it goes along with what TV's doing now. Anniston spooner both exert producing it. I'll have a lot more say than than perhaps in the past and so yeah as you say it's a female centric production team and it'll be interesting to see whether apple you know there was the the the idea that they didn't particularly want anything to won't show anything too dangerous for their audience but yeah. This doesn't look like it might have a little bit. I'm it's funny. I mean a a kind of a new venture in TV doing kind of very kind of pop elite itself kind of Meta production about about those iconic American breakfast TV shows us. The entertainment spot the difference kind of thing. How does that play out. I mean as as a kind of power play from Apple. How does this look to you and to they kind of critical fraternise. I think it's funny because I don't think we necessarily pay attention to breakfast TV. In the same way as the Americans do other than his Morgan says something silly on the there's another party over there they are big shows and and you know they get millions of you is so it is a little bit inside baseball in that sense but but no I think those shows have a little bit more impact than than we do over here in in many other countries so yeah it's not the broader show they could have gone bigger they could've but it'll be interesting to see and they've got a few other titles that are going to be rolling out at the same time you know all with big names you know the the last presentation they rolled out you know. Oprah and such so so you've got some some pretty big names that are going to be on the on the service whether it can rival Netflix and Amazon and so forth will remain remain to be seen what's also want to success. Do you think apple TV I mean is it a mass basis people signing up right at the beginning. I mean as position Roussel's ways you can watch the stuff in the end if you can pay for it yeah and and whether whether release figures we don't know but ultimately it's a hallway Graham. They want people to buy new iphones one of the things they said if you buy a new IPHONE IPAD had you'll get the subscription for free for a year so they really want iphone sales have been down over the last few years so I think they want to want to try to increase that and they see this as a way of of helping that I don't think necessarily in the same technology company compared to perhaps Netflix Amazon sort of moving more towards being entertainment companies or strange strange. Well we live in. We've got phone this week in the sense sense there's been apple. TV apple all of our phones last years and we've all thought wanting to visit what does it do and this is what it's going to sonny. You'RE GONNA be pressing that button. It's going to be coming alive Okay we watch this space with interest flagwaver for the new Apple TV. A venture is the morning show on some more kind of normal ground. Regular ground is something new from Roberta Viana the creator of Gommorah this this is zero zero zero. Pete this a lot of Monaco boxes. I think it's an Italian drama drug problems drug problem you said yes he stays heavy anita either coming off of good moral which very local show but you know huge international hits and it'd be interesting to see what you know whether this one does as well as on sky in at the UK Italy and Germany and it's on Canal Plus farts Amazon is the US and it it looks you know another very much of a drug drama you know trafficking Gabriel Byrne Andrew Rise Bir. It's it's edgy. It's dangerous. yeah looks pretty good. Let's have a dipoto into the dusty well we the engine of the global economy figured the risk of the Prophet. That was a little bit of zero zero zero to the conceit of this Savannah's conceit is as that kind of dirty money drug money arrest is very central to kind of the to send the world economy and a bit of everyone in it was kind of like the richest man in Mexico Co owned by something of his every day or whatever the drug trade is that it's the global impact so whereas Gamaliel was a very specific show this is is that on and on a global level you know that trailer was in English but actually the show's being shot in for each episode will feature you know languages. Italian will loof which is Sonali language. I believe so yeah. It's going to be a very international affairs so a little bit like if you remember that show the last panthers from a few years ago which was a sort of heist drama was shot across six or seven different languages so yeah. I wonder what was going on with that because obviously in a camera that was that was kind of subsidy for heavy thing and even subtitle in Italy. Did they really here because Neopolitan dive yeah. It's kind of amazing stuff. What do we think of the kind of the talent lineup for that Gabriel Byrne. I see him onscreen onscreen small shacks and it's also warm and cozy and ten pound in fact. I was GONNA say I can't say any more about Andrew is interesting 'cause she's obviously known for doing haunting Channel Four dramas. She's he's usually in something where someone's being abused so. This is a slightly different role. She's doing quite well in the states as well in features so she's going to be the main character in this okay and what's the quality control on this. I'm talking about the television drama obviously by the way gets its name from the purest form of the purest form coke. Taylor's for cocaine zere which also is an Italian temp the finest grade grade of flour on Sibley pure yeah. It sounds like you want to know where you can order stuff all. Brooke quite nice to be sifted pound of flour pulsing pulsing it doe doe reasons only okay so we're. GonNa have to move on from. That's because all my best attempts to simply talk about the program being met with derision and as if I'm T- I'm talking in euphemisms. It'll be great show and it was it was a fantastic thing so it'd be very surprised if this is quite good. What's this about because he started out and he was property and Parv love. I won't say sticks. I'm sure it was very real but part of the his reported life is he can go out in daylight in Naples the rest of it and he's had a string of very big things things you on both sides of the Atlantic now what I wonder. What is what his business he wasn't hiding was for years? I don't know the the latest but yeah he's only making a bit Malloy for somebody who has waited out of something by hiding basically because he wrote this book about the the the Mafia big expert expose on there and they wanted to kill him they wanted he's but he's back. Just stick to the Mafia. Let's just go into national Mexican cartel zone so I'm sure that it'd be just as easily could himself holiday destination. Ah Jiang on Bulgaria or anytime soon pizza thank you very much. That's a bit of the autumn in TV the morning show it will be out on the first of November uh on Apple. TV Plus Zero Zero Zero will be out this autumn on Sky UK Germany and Italy canal in France and Amazon in the US France off aw time being big in the art world. It's like back to school all the heavy show okay. Are we going heavy this. I mean this Salah. Everything's big big and noisy and like do they demand hundreds of thousands of people to come to chase autumn so yes. We're starting off in southern. Yes tate modern love. It's a huge show of him. This is going to be an education for me again. See this because I we all know you know. Curse re Google Research. Get down all the rest of it but he's kind of clearly not an under. He's an art superstar but for art superstars under the radio on slightly for most most people. I mean he's probably the person who invented video. Probably one of the office that invented experiment performances probably one of the artists he came up with the term electronic superhighway way. He's probably the first people to he was very he was he was really good friends with Stockhausen. He's one the first people to really experiment with electronic music. He is a genius and this show is going to be enormous with over. Two hundred works made over fifty years with crazy. TV TV elements and robots and his projection version of the SISTINE CHAPEL GONNA be bloody. Brilliant does this stuff which looked futuristic when he was making liking it and an end sort of he seemed to kind of trillion to some idea of kind of higher consciousness in future on the stand and he was a kind of J G Ballard of the world in slots ways. It seems with his presentations to still look futuristic or does it have that retro future thing when someone says will be identities will be served to us by robots. Oh Bolts in pennies sexists few sexist sixties future. He's not sexist and when he does generally naked cello or no he was played as inhuman inhuman naked cello lesson. There's a lot of television sets no one has TV. Setsu made lots of sculptures incorporating defunct technology or he'd it was like one of his big things with the pavilion at Venice Biennale as we did this giant projection space with footage people like David Bowie and everything projected everywhere which in nineteen ninety-three it was hugely progressive. People didn't look at videos are until way later in the decade so yeah. There's a little bit of fashion is to it but the work is still so strong. If if you go to not faring you bump into a robot made out of ten televisions or flashing at you actually analog nature of it's really exciting. I still think there's loads of really interesting aspects to what makes his work so resonant. Today maybe even more resonant today because it seems like a lot of his preoccupations and the way that he displayed displayed them were things that we talk about now that we're fearful of still people writing so writing science fiction novels about they're still making feature feature films about this kind of he was what was his relationship with with what he's over the future well. I think it's really interesting incredibly experimental. Who's part of the fluxus group originally born in South Korea fled. It's war when actually trained trained on some in music in Tokyo ended up in Germany fell in with this entire range of the most interesting people and then moved to New York which is where he really remade his own name almost like an outpost of fluxes so he began experimenting with unusual sculptural musical sculptures. You'd have like a piano almost like a one man band piano with bits coming out making weird noise music. I mean his really really influential performance in the sixties in New York in downtown like the city on the street doing crazy things. I think he was like a complete one off. He obviously is kind of out there. Maybe a little bit but he also worked work with people to invent a lot of really early things like synthesizers to play with video footage in nine hundred sixty seven nine hundred seventy two before anyone was doing that that within an art context before most people doing full stop so I think he's a real pioneer in terms of so many different ways. I mean it's GonNa be Chunky. It's the so much to get into here. People do is going to be hot. I would imagine there might leave. Machines run Klay Hottest doing digital video show now. This is the stuff that is like old. Old fashioned kind of amps and stuff isn't it. It's not something kind of wonderful and that kind of decaying necessary technology. I think really fascinating. I don't know if he maybe he saw as like a vision of the future but actually if you look at the work it often just seems to be playing into a little autistic consents space and being thoughts and like I mean he really is like years zero when it comes to video Kaimov him so I think it's really interesting for a whole wave of artists the thirty years youth like taking that into so many different directions and have we have. We got the hang of showing this stuff. I mean not. It's not his work specifically about getting big crowds. This is at tate modern. The most visited tourist attraction inverted commas in the country have have not just that museum Kim but have public spaces hangar showing the stuff in a way. That's that satisfies. Both the the the layman and curators are actually is a very large. I'm Ju Pike Museum in Korea Fate Memory of that. I mean it's really interesting. I think he was one of the first artists that were into the idea of installation involving electronic material so I think there should be a little bit shiny stuff for the general public problem with I loved. I loved the Tate in general but I'm going to say they do have a very. Let's say autobiographical timeline based approach to one person shows so that can be sometimes a little bit frustrating so it's not like he was born and then he went here then he made this and then he died and I'm kind of expecting that. That's what we're going to see but the quality of the work is so fun and playful and accessible to already broad audience. I mean if I was a little kid. I came into a robot made out of televisions. I'd be like that's really cool. Yeah exactly how I'm predisposed to that show yeah. I think it's going to be informative exciting kind of placing the contemporary in an older context and the Fun Beautiful Fun is an Asia Pac acetate modern. He starts to identify any finishes ninth of February. Thank you four months to enjoy him. Thank you and you're gonNA tell us about William L. Moma. Yeah well not justice so this is a huge deal so this is not this is the first time that three institutions in New New York have come together and doing exhibitions with the same artist so you saw this last year with tacitly Dean in London where you had the National Gallery the Roy Academy and the National Portrait Gallery will doing this this time we're seeing Moma Whitney. The public art fund all doing something with him which is incredible specifically because William Pope cells work is really controversial show. He likes winding people up. He three thrice as good yeah. I mean it's pretty fascinating. That's coming out in different ways as works right political. It's really absurdist. He's best known for his performance works. He'll eat address. Let's say at Superman and crawl twenty two miles down Broadway. I mean he's done forty crawls like this. He's doing his largest career with one hundred volunteers across sort of let's say Greenwich Village Onto Union Square playing on ideas about the concept of protests ideas run racism the idea of verticality being success and if you're on the ground that you're basically west. Let's I mean it's really interesting African American perspective. He's really into highlighting racism. He does a very good job of that and then the show at the Whitney is playing on his work about water so when it's my best known thing about that is he bottled water in Flint which which is a place in Michigan yeah which is known for having complete contaminated water since two thousand fourteen the residents have to pay for the ones the Monsanto thing yeah so he makes work about that so his flint project was he was bottling contaminated water and selling it as artworks so I mean he really. He likes pressing people's buttons. There's a political Kashima Sandwich some free. I saw the Fukushima soup and I uh-huh afraid so we impel. This is an amazing thing. It's quite how far in advance to these things happen. This isn't just when to film directors are making a film about about someone they go. God who which comes out I this is obviously being years in the Planning Suissa conversation with three different institutions like let's do something it happened quite naturally when in terms of what the curator's have said and obviously moments focusing much more on the early performance work this thirteen forces over twenty years doing documentation which quite Mama Abramovich they're into that kind of like art historical edge. It's I think it's really interesting that doing something like that. Specifically also because the work is so political and really highlighting issues in the context of trump in America which has been doing in terms of how they hang in how program so yeah. I think it's quite exciting controversial controvercial. It'll be funny and wrong and make you think and smile. I think he's an incredibly good artist. So age sixty four he really deserves is kind of attention. Yeah it's fascinating stuff many good things spring from that as ready to do it rather have to do it with wit or for that. Whit to be easily understandable it rather rather than just a head scratcher worthiness which is worth something he grew up in like Newark New Really WanNa place the influence place in within New York contexts in Tex- because he taught for a long time in Maine any torn Chicago. Let's say he wasn't nestling embraced by the New York art world for a while. He wants to an extent he makes tex works saying thank things like black people or death or like Purple People Talk About Green people and he really likes playing with his audience so that is numb to impact. He's at tate modern starting on the Seventeenth Tober William Pope L. at the Moma the Whitney and the Public Art Fund in New York City kicking off from the twenty first of all Tober moment. At least we suggest Google the other places. I mean what am I. It's all around the same time generally late October the front. Thank you very much indeed Joji. Come down. We'd Beckon you down from the Bulgarian Mountain urges g rather to tell us Philipson on a bit of old time listening where we can first flashing lights showed clips you listeners into the vibe. CBS This is lost bloom from an upcoming out and crushed by flashing points. uh-huh floating points always foot something new from this dude definitely definitely definitely is arguably one of the best produces around Sam Sheppard. He's GonNa PhD in Neuro Science. He's also kind of just this wizardy maker of electronic music. He's record label owner. He's a DJ amazing today. One of the teachers I think to have ever played a spiritual twenty minutes sacks chain by Barry Sanders in Bergheim in Berlin spiritual jazz he is this is a safe see he debut Alenia in back in four years ago and to rave reviews it was picked up everyone so really put him on on the mark with his peers and contemporaries like Caribou and John Hopkins and four TAT Bonobo people that he can frequently. Dj's with puts on nights so just kind of hangs out. He's a big old crate. Dick he's kind of more than ten thousand vinyl records and he's been around for long on that because I guess he he has line of music as well. Yuping lows. BP's bits and bobs and collaboration came up through the kind of the plastic people era the key club is now defunct but sort of emerged in the late two thousands sort of you know in in that kind of thing but then always music incorporate right so many different influences so very experimental electronic music using jazz and techno classical in Seoul influences and things antidrug rogue rogue all right his radio show that he does. It's really actually quite like Solan Jazz jazz influences and that first album millennia I remember seeing an interview with him in the garden at the time and him saying people bit disappointed annoyed that haven't made kind of floating points the bangers album and I have a feeling that this album might be a bit more in that in that sort of camp because lazarides first taste is file on the face smelter banks. You know you want to hear that the club you've section magic face not not too. I'm ready for it. I love it could face melted but and this is in there because he's described this as being kind yeah a bit more banging. He's described as aggressive or whatever this upcoming record so Elena took five years this record take five weeks and he'd basically you've been on tour with the accident in two thousand seventeen and it was just him in usually pays with live band but it was just him and his buckling and what he thought would what happened to twenty thousand people every night was he'd played some sort of like beautiful chilled out and just play around improvise and play that kind of thing actually happen does he said he made the most obtuse as an aggressive music today which was quite liberating for him and so that is what inspired this album and yeah made in five weeks and and he's just amazing. He's masterful at these kind of shape shifting us big tracks the have so many different ways to them and they're so beautiful sometimes quite melancholic uncalled. He's genius. I think I love those imports and I like that kind of school of deejay producer kind of people that are you know off to. Dj Culture in the nineties and it was so kind of it was so kind of I don't know kind of below key and it was kind of like the DJ version of Papa suppose rose and then this kind of stuff came quite sort of quite kind of intellectual ephemeral and these guys are kind of like they're hiding behind horn rimmed glasses and drinking water and you kind kind of thing they something kind of unusual kind of other one for about that those brawny no end of things kind of call is probably the early musician as well to have been given a philosophy book during TJ's Wa from a fan favorite punk rock. Yeah Ah come on anyway love around the room. I think mostly for floating points crush is out on October the eighteenth breath next the Megastar. Why is it taking Kim Gordon so long to make her. I well I mean she was in sonnet eastern. Yanni many many many is dots and when her the estimate marriage and did twenty seven years later and she's on some of the bits involves ups sort of inbetween Sony still when it was still going all say outside of it. She's dabbled in some acting film roles. She's done. Susan stuff big any artwork self. She published her memoir in two thousand fifteen and so I guess it's just she. Hasn't you know it's just time to get round into it now. critiquing Alyssa it anyway she's been. She's spending big. She's been doing and the book was Hugh. Yeah it was. I mean that kind of Patty Smith Mold old. She's brilliant. Memoir takes time table for her okay. That's took to cleanse our listeners. Let's let's hear. This is Kim Gordon. It's called Abbey. I love the video. Tell us so I mean just she's. I mean she could sing a engineering manual in that voice and it would just sound cool you sort of did with the early took this track. Yes it's about AIRBNB. The record is is probably a contender for video of the year. It's so clever. It's flu. Trump has done this before literally white text on black sort of lots of different sentences from chemical letter from her in a way I am describing what the video would be if they had had the budget for it and it's just it's just perfect the words paint pictures so well as Zico free and he says you know this video was going to be made in an AIRBNB that wasn't any money it would have been foam mid century modern over the Hollywood hills in monochrome with her crawling around on a shag carpet like just brilliant in slow motion rubbing had guitar over everything describes what she'd be wearing. It is kind jarring really that someone like Kim Gordon like can't afford to do this is not exactly like do a half job on the kind of rock star cliches of is taking a bit of a pike. I think the kind of key Catholic curated times instagram life kind of thing what Kim saying there is don't camera my own home. It's way actually relates to her performance. I actually did a performance worked for Kim. Jong Aren't saying this yeah. Let's hear okay when I was carrying manifesto in Sierra. She was one of the artists and she was doing a performance where can she couldn't come so she gave me. She said well you do the performance for me. She she gave me a list right out of told me to take guitar and I got on stage off to peaches. I'm still cringing of so much. I was like Oh my God. They're everyone's expecting Kim Golden. They get me and I was there. It was like she wind makes noise play. The guitar like this was like instructions so it's totally art wise exactly the way that video uh-huh is which is why it's so good. It's perfect. It's literally perfect. She's perfect. I mean yeah. She's you just can't say about what about Kim Goethe but also actually on on the I I listened to that track and I you know it's got a it's just go on e. Sound Punchy kind of heavy riffs and and that five and I was thinking I wonder whether the rest of the record is just kind of a lot of that and actually it's not all mixed bag. It kicks off with them. Attract could sketch artists which is kind of heavy w triple five and quite industrial but then biff something melodic and Phillips between say Yeah. That's cool. No home record record a clue what's inside it. Is it sounds from the couple of tracks. I've heard like good stuff and yeah beautiful mixed bag. It's not from Kim Gordon Infect Perfect Nufemme can golden something that we I have been able to say that strangely. Unless of course you're Francesca Gavin seen in the same room so Kim Gordon's no home record out outs on the eleventh of October floating points crush as previously discussed is out on the eighteenth of October George Rogers. Thank you very much indeed that brings us to the end of today's show to guess Francesca Gavin Peter White and George Rogers and to my producers Hubby Fisher and Fernando Augusto per shekar. We'll be back at the same time next next week for the time being found everyone here. Thanks very much for tuning in.

Apple Kim Gordon Google Amazon New York City Apple UK Germany Jennifer Aniston Steve Carell Kim Pete Fan tate modern Francesca Gavin Italy Georgie FAB Bulgaria Public Art Fund AIRBNB US
The end of the blockbuster? Museums in a post-pandemic world

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:07:58 hr | 1 year ago

The end of the blockbuster? Museums in a post-pandemic world

"We cannot be tune associated with Christie's visit Christie's come to find out more about the wills leading sixty six auction. It says hello and welcome to the WIKI NAS. I'm Ben Lee this week. We're looking at museums in different parts of the globe. What's their future in a world? Change by correct sir. The dose of museums have slammed shut over recent weeks as Cova nineteen lockdown countries across the world. So this week we're asking key figures in museums in the UK the US and China. What happens next? We speak to Francis Morris. The director of tate modern to Dan Weiss the president and Chief Executive of the Metropolitan Museum of art and to Philip to Nari the director of the Center for Contemporary Art in Beijing leaders with Indifferent Museum cultures and with very different challenges ahead. We also have the latest on logged works series in which might wonder the artist. Explores Jackson pollock's autumn rhythm before we go any further? Just a reminder that you can sign up for the newspapers free daily newsletter for related stories. Go to the newspaper. Dot Com and the newsletter links. The Right at the page and as I mentioned last week we've launched a readership survey. We're asking for your views on everything we do including the podcast is still active so please visit survey dot the aren't newspaper. Come and give us your feedback now. Tate modern along with three sister galleries in London. Liverpool INSEN is closed its doors in March as the UK. Moved INTO. Lock down the galleries. Andy Warhol Exhibition was opened for days. Steve McQueen show was only open for four weeks and a show of the South African photographers. Anneli Mahaweli which was due to open in April has already been postponed. Its the twentieth anniversary of Titans opening this year and there was due to be an extensive series of celebrations from the eleventh of. May including a display of two of your Qassam as infinity rooms. Which no doubt would have joined false numbers of people to the museum. So what now? I spoke to Francis Morris the director of Tate Modern to gator foods Francis. I thought we begin by picking up on something you said in an Oscar in the Guardian this week which was which was the oddly because the art world has shut down like everything else. You've had more time to talk and it seems to me that this is significant. This can be yes. It's a horrific period but it can be a productive period concept by if we can. We can talk through how the artwork move on from this. You know I think we we would you for polls I've had in the last two decades have been so incredibly intense by pass but I think across the whole sector and what happens with intensity is that you don't Ford moments to reflect and we do need reflection time and this emergency has has all sorts of hugely unfortunate consequences but I think one massively valuable thing is. It's stopped us in our tracks and that once you stop in your tracks you do tend to look back and looking back. We'll help us move forward and I think we need to think about the moment wherein and the implications of this pandemic but actually we need to begin to have a much longer sense of Ford Strategy. Indeed will come back to that but let's begin by talking about where we were when the tight shut its doors. Obviously the star you said the first of May Audit Organization said the first of May that's been extended to the first of June. Is that still the aim that you may open the doors again on the first June or do you think it will be extended again. Then we have no idea. Honestly I'm we wait clearly await as Dave from government. We looking with interest to see what's happening in different parts of the world and different museums sectors. One thing for sure is that. I think it's likely to take us much longer to open up than it did to close down because we have some choices. We have some options and we need to think them through. We need to think very carefully about how we open We need to think about the safety of visitors are reach. We need to think about the safety of the stakeholders and the context. So it's helpful that we have some international comparative to look at a not a note. Today number of German museums very tentatively opening their doors so the the discussions around that timeframe will be seriously starting which we once we have a stiff from government about when there's a beginning of the unlocking and at what point cultural institutions will be invited to open. Their doors am. Can you liaise with your colleagues in German museums? Will you be talking to them and saying well? How did this go? And how did that go? What did you do about this that sort of thing? Yes I mean those. Those conversations have already begun because of course there there. There are other institutions in other parts of the world that have dealt with the lockdown differently and some of those protocols an and systems that those museums are working with may or may not be useful to us because of course we're all very uniquely situated and local context but of course I've been talking for example with the music Singapore. I've been talking to Hong Kong and getting very useful sense of not just of mechanisms for supporting a return or open up institution but the likelihood of the psychology of the visit of the psychology of the Front of House Staff. And think one of the things we need to remember is that business on just as museums aren't just defined by visitors that Complex de dedicated teams of people every single person involved in the exchange between the museum and the visitor will in some way have been shaped or reformed or impacted by this pandemic. So there's no normal visited. Let's come back in. A single person will walk jaws who won't come with a different mindset themselves. It's going to be very interesting. That's right and again in that Guardian. Ask who you talked about this sense of a before and after it does feel like that doesn't it? It's not quite reset. But there's a there's a sense of something of a reset button being pushed. I mean it's just sort of enforced as I said enforce moments of reflection and there's also huge opportunity when you do research to we set things slightly differently and suddenly a tate for museums. We've been hugely successful in in a way evolving a kind of twenty first century persona. But I think we're all really keen to have an opportunity to think. Well okay so we've got to this point. What would we want to do now differently? What would we want to retain? What would want to build on where we want to reemphasize? I think it's a IT'S A. It's a really useful time. I was actually very moved. Or I'll full disclosure. I used to work at the tate. I worked there for many years before became a journalist. And I know when I was there what the Vision Tate. Modern was and that vision. I thought was utterly clearly accomplished when I visited one of the uniquely tate late nights because the vision tate modern was that it would attract a very diverse audience a much younger audience and huge numbers of these people. And and when I was there I was I was I was acutely aware tainted achieve what it set out to do. Twenty years ago this year you know but but also thinking about that now. Song much of that was about about close. Nick people altogether in on mass about large numbers of people about performances which involved am close physical connection with the audience. All these sort of things. These are the kinds of things that they're going to have to be rethought. But there's such a crucial thing about what makes tate modern so dynamic on the yes they are and other things. I think we feel rightly proud all but one of the things that I've found interesting almost revelatory since we locked down that I've actually being able to have the kind of intimate contact conversations with people who are close to tate via zoom. That just as real if not more close than the kind of conversations that I have in a public space so to give you an example we have a really wonderful group of Tate. Neighbors Group of people who live very very close to take physical proximity. Who Works together with Tania Bruguera on Turbine Hall Project A couple of years ago and they include Nagy Bell. Who's an extraordinary? A social worker in the in the neighbor nicknamed the building upon which symbolizes the importance of community and neighborliness to tate. And that group. It's a small group but it's proving extremely resilient and the kind of conversations that we've been having live but by Zoom Achy. Take each of us into each other's homes so there's a closeness that that we never get when we meet in the kind of civic space to the museum so there are some interesting things that are happening and I think those conversations are you know they're going to build a support system and I hope that that will that will stay rest going forward and I think it's interesting. We're talking on Earth Day. Actually this can be catalyst for the International Museum community to really start to put their money where their mouth is in terms of the climate content. Yes absolutely I think as a sector. We've been sleepwalking to long. What is brilliant about this? Awful tragic time is that we're all listening to science. Scientists are telling us what to do. We should have been listening to scientists for a very long time. So there's absolutely no excuse not to hear what scientists attending us about longer term prospects for the world. Of course you take like obviously. Many organizations already has a long-standing commitment to sustainability in terms of our buildings and programs and many colleagues have really dedicated a great deal of time and energy to putting our house in order but the lockdown has also brought its revelations not just us but across the sector one small example. I used to travel great. Did of my time and always thought the face to face encounter in the space in the location was absolutely crucial to the negotiation of contracts to sharing evolving shows together but how amazing it is to have these focused clear effective and enjoyable conversations without the fog of jet lag but very interesting being to Sydney up into Hong Kong. I was in New York yesterday twice a back in New York this afternoon. And all of it for the price of zoom call. This obviously connects to this idea of blockbuster exhibitions and it's very interesting. That in a letter was not by Manuel. Dura who's the director of the Renaissance Fear Museum in Madrid and in again in the South Korean cool there? Is this idea that there must be a shift in blockbuste- culture and blockbuster culture is one of the most obvious? Conspicuous ways in which museums are contributing to to sort of carbon footprint for the art industry. They are essential money-making events for museums as well. So how can blockbuster culture shift as it were well? Okay first of all confession time. I love blockbusters. You know. They are hugely significant for bringing US extraordinary. Works of art from Unique opportunities to see deep real content and I think for us that also really important the most museums what we would call trust. Builders they bring transformative experiences two generations and particularly they are the exhibition that reach haunt to reach audiences because they come with high profile big marketing budgets that talking point so in themselves they can be wonderful things but I think waters so often. The case with very successful tried and tested formats is that the danger is that they crowd out the other things that are also hugely important and valuable all that simply alternative emerging of minority interests. And all those other things you will turn into it. The minority interest in the emerging. Mardi actually things. We need to drive the future with the whole ecosystem will collapse if we don't bring on new perspectives if we don't nurture younger artists if we don't as a modern has done shed a spotlight on artists who have fought outside the Canam who haven't been subject to Las bus bus so I think that that we must be complacent. Here coast. Blockbusters are absolutely central to the Economy Museum but they are difficult to realize they are expensive and the in the end then less sustainable so I think there is a complex piece of work that all museums muster. We must do it together because this can't be about competition there is there is of course competition for audiences and ticket sales. That drives blockbusters but we must work together to really think. But how do we right? We vitalize the amazing resources that we already have that are in public ownership and then we also do pay a put a great deal of investment in both in terms of building our collections and the research around them and so I think there is. There is an amazing opportunity now to recalibrate to think about. How do we bring the creativity and innovation that we brought to our exhibitions? How do we bring that unused that in relation to our permanent collections and public programs? And how do we then bring them to the fall of really hungry and interested public? But that's the sort of a question that the museum community is asking for so long isn't it? I mean it's something when I was at the tate it was how can we? How can we bring more people in to the extraordinary resources that we have on the wolves every day of the week rather than just for say a warhol retrospective and I think it's it's some people do really interesting things in this in this direction? The titans and example other museums across the UK are too. But it somewhat elusive. This idea of trying to I suppose if in an event culture and a culture driven by happenings how do you? How do you create happenings around? Something which is just their seven days a week. Twenty four hours a day but the absence. There's absolutely no reason why we can't adapt some of the essentially marketing strategies and bring them to bear in relation to collection hands. And of course you absolute right that We have done quite well in that respect tate. Modern I think I'd say with some conviction that when we opened tate modern we offered a hugely challenging very unconventional way of presenting the collection and it was extremely well received controversial enticing provocative people wanted to come and sit and we have very short memories. But we when you look at what we've done in the past and what I think what Birmingham museums have done recently. What magister then. Mazing examples at other museums both in this country and abroad. We have radi strong rich. Toolkit drew that we can draw from invasion to a past but also we have a brand new tool kit now. We have incredible new digital technologies. We have new ideas. Ross slow looking around participation about different voices. So let's just get creative. You know. We're not outside what we call creative industries. We have this incredible talent pool at tate and among our networks. You feel quite actually excited about about doing that. I think one of the things one of the examples that tate modern had when it first opened was the drawing these enormous audiences seventy. You had new anchors as you call them. The these new works which suddenly became pivotal in your collection in which the public needed to see for instance Cornelia Parker's exploding shared. You know this. This work co dot matter of this exploding shared the that suddenly became an icon of the tate collection. And I suppose that's what you've got to do is sort of animate. These works may may not yet be losing large in the public imagination. But have the opportunity to do. So if you if you present imaginatively. All collections have things that they overlook and I think one of the one of the things we need to get better at is looking at our collection with outside is meg. We should we should be. We should be doing that with with people who do come from outside the institution take the temperature and one of the projects. I was really excited about that. We have had to put on hold was the presentation of these two fantastic. Kasama rooms that we had in the collection and when I think about Qassam is history from when we made a retrospective less than ten years ago. Unit seems astonishing that at that stage we thought a medium-scale show. You knew it'd be sort of a moderate to high interest amongst visitors and the accumulation of interest around Zalm in that decade. Is being absent stanching into have these works in the collection? They are a gift every bit as a as attractive as inspiring as any blockbuster we could mount so. That's an example of the way that you use the collection. I was intrigued by something that you said about wanting to prioritize the also the future as it were but also how much that depends upon the bigger more obvious show. So is your ability to do shows lucky. Would you to of Muhammad Ali and Mike Delano Abbott Arnovitz? This summer dependent upon also having done warhol in other words. Did you need the money that that would bring in in order to have a program for you know shows? We should obviously not not moneymakers. I'll planning cyclists much more long term and I can't comment yet on the outcomes of the kind of the the financial impact of this period. But what I can say. Is that when we closed? We closed with three exhibitions in situ one off. Way Off the walls and that There are another six shows in the pipeline for the remainder of the year and over the next following year. I'm too much in the period that we're on -ticipant being disrupted for their another you half a dozen at least shows planned and in final stages of preparation in some respects and all that program sits in a network of around thirteen not collaborating institutions so each exhibition happens at. Tate will have been produced either. In collaboration with partner museums. In North America Europe and Latin America all will be an exhibition that we have originated that then. We'll talk to other venues so you can imagine that the complexity is a little bit like having created a the most beautiful and tightly. A tightly made jigsaw puzzle and somebody's scattered all over the flow and have pickup. Hp and and put it back together and some of those pieces will need a little bit of reshaping and the final picture will look slightly different but each piece is loved and each piece is a commitment and so the thing that we will really be working on over the next few months is how do we ensure that we retain as support that program. And I say that because so much of what will happen to us is outside our control because each of these partnership organizations is in its own journey with pandemic in its own city or location and will be In a part of his own network of stakeholders and and government and funding. So there's going to zoom cause and a lot of moving pieces around You can call it the chess set the jigsaw. Whatever but With we don't take on exhibitions lightly in exhibitions go through momentous processes of discussion before they even get on the shed show and we don't want any of that go to waste but of course reshaping reinventing re positioning. Yeah we will find a way but Kenny. For instance say the Warhol Show. It was open for a matter of days that I was one of the lucky people who was able to see it and but I also noticed this massive shop outside. Obviously a big draw for merchandise people. Won't they will t shirts and posters and everything else? It was due to go after the tate to the museum ludvig in Cologne but also oversee. There are as you say this those stick saw. There's the her sean lending exceptionally lending. Its Marilyn's lips painting that network of conversations that needs to happen obviously will happen with museums at different stages of lockdown and opening. So can you say for instance whether the Warhol Show will reopen at the tate? Even if let's say the lockdown last into into the summer and the autumn I just can't say I mean all I can tell you that we will on selling the t shirts and there's also look at our website. There's a great you can visit. The show is up to brilliant walk through with with the curatorial team is beautifully done and it is one of one of the great tragedies all museums all of us have shows just the we all would've loved to have seen those shows at other institutions. But all in exactly the same boat and there's a tremendous sense of solidarity and kind of liberation and one thing is absolutely for sure is. That warhol won't go away so I can't give you any of those answers but it's a really interesting. Octa WAY TRAE Great Fuzzy Sandwich. Joining us on the PODCAST. Thank you You can see the online tool of the Andy Warhol. Show that Francie mentioned at tate all UK where you'll also find a tour of tate. Britain's Aubrey beardsley exhibition and various other online content. And you can read an extensive story on the challenges facing museums online at the art newspaper. Dot Com on our APP for IOS and in the next edition of the newspaper which is out next week now. The Metropolitan Museum of art in New York lead the way for US museums in closing. Its doors in March and with state funding. The met face is quite different. Financial challenges to those British museums. I spoke to Dan. Weiss the next president and chief executive about the museums immediate and long-term future and know that we spoke before the mets announced on Wednesday the twenty second of April it was laying off eighty one staff members in its visitor services and retail departments as it braced for the budget deficit related to shut them down. The M- let the way in announcing that it would shut down on the twelfth of March. Lots of museums followed and in the following day's new times reported they would be a hundred million shortfall in the current and following fiscal year. And also the the museum wouldn't open again until July two I. Can you tell us something about both those those points? The the one hundred million short for to begin with no so why July. The first well as this crisis began to unfold for all of us our first goal was to really figure out. What the magnitude of this issue was going to be and how we best manage it. In the first instance we realized we had to close and as soon as we realized we had to close we also then turned our attention to figuring out. When can we reopen. Under what circumstances would be able to reopen and what are the financial implications of such a decision? So we put our team together to begin to assess what we think. The issues are and the hundred million dollars really came out of out of a series of modeling exercises. We went through based on the presumption. We would not reopen at least until July first. And we did that. I'll come to that in a moment as to why it was July first but based on that decision we looked at what are lost. Revenue would be what we thought. The implications would be as we reopen in terms of global tourism and the number of visitors that we would have all of those components and they as we put it all together. We realized the magnitude of this challenge is massive and that we thought the sooner we could identify that articulate that the better it would be for everyone. This is not the kind of crisis where we'RE BETTER OFF. Keeping the issue quiet trying not to upset people but rather face straightaway. What the challenges and begin to put plans together to address it so the financial crisis the financial magnitude came out of our assessment of what we thought. The implications of closing and staying closed would be the July first date really based on what we were reading and understanding from public health experts primarily around the trajectory of the pandemic and particularly what the curve when the curve would actually begin to descend when we begin to see that the environment is safe enough to allow people to come together again and social ways and I think July first is optimistic. At this point we chose July first in the first instance because we thought that was a reasonable approximation of several months anyway of being closed but at this point it may be that it will be after July first. The question of the hundred million inevitably win one. He is that stratospheric figure one wonders. What what it's going to affect so if you haven't got one hundred million dollars the you hoped you would have then. How does that affect the museum? What what what suffers as a result. Can you say something about where you expect that impact to be felt? Yes well the one hundred million or whatever the number turns out to be and it could be a little bit larger than one hundred million once we really know more about when we can reopen and how the global economy is going to behave but that number really came out of understanding the magnitude and duration of the financial distress we will be subject to navigating which is no different from every other organization in the world whether it's a nonprofit museum or business and so by the time we get through this crisis and we're back to some semblance of normal operations we will no longer be generating any deficits and that's probably eighteen months from now more or less that we would face that kind of resolution so the hundred million dollars is from now until eighteen months from now when we're balancing our budgets and we're moving along and in order to accommodate that kind of a burden we've looked at everything. We have reduced our overall programming budget. So we have cut back on the number of special exhibitions that doing and the number of other programmatic pro events that we have the met has an enormously ambitious and very busy schedule. Each year we do more than thirty eight thousand events every year so in order for us to address this budget shortfall. One piece of it is reducing programming as a result of reducing programming. We're able to reallocate some of those dollars to core operations that allow the museum to carry on and address this deficit. And we're also looking at how we can reduce cost just overall reduce costs in terms of the overall budget for the institution. And then finally we're also looking at fundraising we have friends and supporters. Who are want the museum to obviously to get through this. So if there is a there is light at the end of the tunnel. At the end of the hundred million dollar challenge we are healthy and vibrant and successful then navigating the hundred million as a temporary kind of a problem. And that's how we've thought of it and that's what we're doing. I'd like to focus more on this programming issue. So obviously if you're cutting back on program one imagine that would mainly be the big exhibition. So is that is that the case not entirely. Certainly the the major exhibitions are the greatest generator of of activity levels and absorb were of costs. That's certainly true but there are other things as well. We have conferences. Lectures live arts events tours. All kinds of things that go on and so as we look out into the fall if let us say we were to reopen on July first we would imagine or whatever it would be. Let's say September first. We expect that. In the first few months of reopening our activity levels will be significantly lower. Because there will be social distancing requirements in place. Anyway so that people who come to the Museum. We'll have to have the ability to be in isolated space more or less so we need fewer activities anyway and so it's a lot of things it's major exhibitions but other things too because there's there's an atmosphere around where museum directors for instance are questioning whether she we need a sort of paradigm shift in the way that museums behave. You know that we may be in fact past the era blockbuster museums and obviously you think about the implications in terms of air travel all sorts of other implications that connect to the blockbuster exhibition. What's your sense because because it seems to me that there's a there's a paradox at play in the sense that yes these massive revenue generators. They're also expensive to put on but they also intensive their logistics there the toughest things to pull off so there's all sorts of balancing acts seems to me that museums are going to need to strike in this new era. That we that will enter into. I think there is generally wide agreement in the museum world that we are experiencing a paradigm shift and in some ways. That are not obvious to US quite yet. The world will never look quite the same when we reopened and we settle settle into new environment and within that. I think there is the question. About how much reduction there needs to be or as appropriate in programming in particularly special exhibitions. One of the things I've observed and I'm no. I'm not alone that in times of stress like this when people are feeling scarcity and they're concerned about About core things what. The museum represents is very important to people. And it's not major special exhibitions. It's just the opportunity for people to come into connect with our our permanent collection to have a chance to be in this. Space digital is wonderful and people are looking at our our programming digitally but coming into the space and having direct encounters with art. Is something very very important people so I think when we do reopen they won't be clamoring for special exhibitions. They'll be looking for opportunities to have quiet reflective time and space in the museum with works of art that are important to them and I think all museums will be going back to those first principles much more than they have in the past over the fullness of time whether it turns out that that remains to be the case we'll see could be that there will be much less interest in special exhibitions of the sort. We saw before one of the things that is. I think very intriguing about this is that special exhibitions and the balance of that sort of event culture with the day to collection. This extraordinary collection. That you're talking about is one of the things that museums are constantly battling to try to achieve the right balance in in the sense that actually certainly in the UK. And I know it's true in certain. Us Museums is. There's a sense that permanent collections are in some ways undervalued that the museums actually could be doing very much more to reinforce the importance of their permanent collections. Do you think. Can you imagine that that is something that will doing? Well I do. I think it requires us all to reflect on why we why we value museums. And what it is. We're actually seeking. We have at least up until this moment. We've lived increasingly in an environment that is that dominated by a need forever exciting stimulation for something new and different in fresh and shiny and what special exhibitions do is provide an event moment for people to come to the museum to see what's new and to get a sense for what the latest idea is to have. People have an opportunity for people to discuss. Whatever the issues of the day are around the exhibition. And I think we're all reflecting on whether that is necessary to the same degree we have seen before my instinct is is not that I think what drives most people wanna cut go to art museums or any cultural institution is to have a direct engagement with the core collection of the core programming. And I think that's likely to be what will happen for us in the future. So the only fewer exhibitions. There'll be there'll be there'll be plenty of interest in the museum going back to the finances. There's a there's a fifty million emergency fund. Can you say more about what that is and how you are allocating? Yes we realized as we we dimension the magnitude of the overall problem that it would be very important for us to try to create a fund that allowed us to meet the needs of the museum on a day to day basis as the crisis unfolds and as new information becomes available to US ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. So the fifty million dollar emergency fund which is actually now a larger than that was created in two ways. One we re allocated resources within the museum's budgets that were going to be spent on programming acquisitions or mission related activity that we had where we had the ability to reallocate those funds. We did so that they could focus again on core responsibilities that we have financially and second. We've raised money philanthropic -ly from are primarily our trustees so again the challenge were solving for is one hundred million dollar problem and we thought that if we break that down into a series of component parts about fifty million would be this this reallocated emergency fund that comes out of our own resources in our own endowments where we can draw them. Appropriately and legally twenty five million is going to be coming from philanthropic support that we raise from our supporters and trustees and then twenty five million more we have to find ourselves by reducing our own costs and just doing things more efficiently and less expensively and collectively those three Po pieces come together and they allow us to work through this crisis. Can you say more about the endowment because obviously subject to fluctuations in terms of the market am? Wha what is the current figure for the endowment and to what extent you mentioned where Lee way appropriately legally you can draw down from endowments you have done. So can you say more about our endowment was before this crisis was about three point six billion dollars and now it's probably three point three billion dollars something like that. It's a very large number and we're enormously fortunate to have access to that kind of resource by statute. We are allowed to spend about five percent of that a year. That's normally how endowments are spent and for us about half of that. More than half of it is actually already restricted to various kinds of programmatic areas or acquisition. So we cannot use the money for any other purpose other than what is specified for in the gift agreement from the donor. The other money is more available to us to be used in different ways and we already use the significant portion of our endowment to meet our operating expenses. So when I say we're using all of our endowment as that we can to meet our expenses really doing is making sure that all of the money that comes to us. Each year through the five percent draw is being used for the most mission critical activities that we have there is not at this point or likely in the foreseeable future a plan to invade the Corpus of the endowment and spend down. That isn't something museums. Do it is. It is extraordinarily destructive to the future of the institution and the met did not do that in the Great Depression. It did not do that. In two thousand and eight. We are not legally able to do that but we are going to use the money. We have available to us as thoughtfully and strategically as we can the full extent. This crisis oversee. We don't know yet and we don't know how long it's going to go on for an oversee. This makes it very difficult to predict how people will behave into the future. But for instance. Are you still involved in emergency? Planning for instance for windows doors do reopen and how you will ease the museum back to life as it were. We have done a lot of planning already in thinking through very carefully what the museum can do for the public one. We'RE ALLOWED TO REOPEN. What our operating environment will be. How do we keep it safe and secure for our staff who have to interact with the public who have various kinds of risks associated with moving around an environment of where the public health risk? That planning has already begun. Even though we don't yet know what the environment will be exactly but we. We anticipate certain things were preparing for them. There may be the requirement for timed entry in order that social distancing can be assured to the public when they come in the museum. We cannot have. I'm sure vast numbers of the public crowded into galleries engaging in a very close space to see works of art. So we're GONNA have to be navigating it very differently. We're doing that. We don't know yet. What kind of screening would be required at the door of our museum but we know in Asia various museums? That have reopened are you are. They're doing temperature. Screening the requiring visitors to wear masks various steps like that that we may be asked or required to do when we reopened. So we're looking at that. We're looking at how people purchase tickets to make sure that's a safe and secure way as possible to do that. So all of that planning is underway whether we open on July first or September. First we don't believe we're going to open up like we used to. We're going to have to be in the in the age of the of post pandemic period. We're going to be obviously working under great restrictions. It's really important to us to get the museum open as soon as we can in a safe way. No one wants to come to an art museum and have a cultural experience worried about their health but people really WANNA come. They want to see the art. They WanNa have the experience. That's so important to them. Spiritually and intellectually. Our job is to find that balance between providing access that is not intrusive or threatening. But that is safe and secure. And we've been working on that quite hard as I said right. At the top of the conversation it led the way in terms of shutting. The doors is in a way an exemplar of museum for the whole of the museum community. Do you feel to responsibility to lead at this moment. In terms of the entire museum community and also can you address whether this is a sort of paradigm shift in terms of just the entire model of the way that museums run in the US. Because this is such an enormous moment such momentous time. Can you predict that there might be a shift in the fundamental business model of museums? And can you lead in that discussion? Yes I think both are both true. The math has always been a leading institution by virtue of our size the magnitude of our collection the number of visitors. That we welcome them. It has always been an important and influential cultural institution so it is not surprising that we find ourselves in that role now and I felt very clear to me as this crisis was unfolding into my colleagues at the met that we needed to make a decision. Whatever we decided to do that would withstand careful scrutiny and that would likely serve as a model for other institutions because that's how the matter was often operated and I think we made the right decision by closing when we did and many other museums were actually appreciative. That we did that because it made it a little bit easier for them also to do that and they knew they needed to do that. So I think the met has led and will continue to lead but we are also on in on a regular basis in conversation with other museums. And making sure that we're comparing best practices. We're learning from each other. A group of New York Art Museum leaders last week for example also had conversation with several Asian Art Museum leaders who have already reopened their museums to talk about their experience. And what they're learning so ultimately the met needs to lead but we need to be collaborative and and we will do both of those things to as we move forward. I think we are heading into a very new operating environment for the next several years and maybe for forever in terms of how we engage the public what our budgets looked like how we generate revenues and manage costs how we develop programming to service the public. What kind of expectations the public has of museums? I think all of those things are up in the air and for discussion which also means it's an opportunity for us to bear down on our mission to think more carefully about. What is it that we do? That's most important and if we're not going to do everything let's make sure we're doing what's most important and not necessarily those things that are less important so a crisis like this always provides opportunities for reflection and learning and. I think we're doing that and as we enter into the new environment. My hope is we can be more focused sharper more mission driven institution than we were before. Even if we fewer resources to do the work Thanks much for joining us on the podcast pleasure. Thanks for having me You can read the latest news about stuff cots at the met heavy out. Newspaper Dot Com. And you can explore the three sixty degrees project allowing you to take a virtual tour of its various locations and galleries online at met Museum Dot. Org a bit later. We'll talk to two Nari in Beijing and we hear from the autism one in Japan Jackson pollock's autumn rhythm. But I hear a few of the top stories on our website as mentioned briefly in the interviews in Germany Museum said this week began to reopen Catherine Hickory reports that in Brandenburg small rural museums have opened for the first time with limits on visitor numbers and security precautions in place. It will take longer for bigger museums to follow suit according to the German Museums Association. And the a few states have so far set a date. From which may reopen in touring from twenty eighth of April and in Berlin and Saxony from the Fourth of May the Dresden State. Art Collections are planning to open gradually also starting on the fourth of. May the photographer. Pete bid the subject of numerous by Francis Bacon and a friend of several artists including Andy Warhol and Safdar. Deli has died aged eighty. Two Gareth Harris writes bid was found dead on the nineteenth of April almost three weeks after he disappeared from his home. In Montauk on Long Island he'd been suffering from dementia his most famous photographs where his images of wildlife statement released by his family said the bid was a pioneering contemporary artist who was decades ahead of his time and his efforts to sound the alarm about environmental damage and lastly Louisa Buck reports. That Wolfgang Tillman's has this week. Launch a twenty twenty solidarity campaign bringing together more than forty international artists including Luke tournaments. Andress Gerski the Code Eisenman and Betty Tompkins to design a poster that can then be offered as a reward on different fundraising sites in return for fifty pound or fifty dollars donation. The aim is to support cultural music venues community projects independent spaces and publications that are as tumors puts it existential threatened by the current crisis. You can read all these stories and more at the art newspaper. Dot Com or on the APP. We'll be back after this weekend. Out is brought to you in association with Christie's as collectors and art lovers increasingly look to browse purchase online Christie's significantly expanded. Its own winery. Sale calendar in April and May Christie's will introduce two new themed online contemporary art sales. Andy Warhol better days with proceeds benefit. Emergency Relief efforts for artists in America and then handpicked hundred words by together. The refreshed online only schedule. Compliments Christie's private sales of freeze bid and Bayat anytime and from anywhere find out more on Christie's DOT com. Welcome back now. In the next issue of the newspaper is an opinion piece from Philip to Nari the director of the Center for Contemporary Art in Beijing. Entitled greetings from a museum leaving lock down. The center hopes to open stores in earnest next month and was quickly put together a new exhibition meditations. On an emergency to replace shows that it's been forced to postpone because of the Pandemic Philip is in Beijing preparing for the reopening and I spoke to him about the museum plans so Philip in the PC say it's been a time to think can tell me something about what you've been thinking about in this period. Sure I mean it's really been a chance to think about who we are as an institution and maybe what our special strengths are. Especially as we're faced with all kinds of new challenges stemming from this situation and I think at the end I kind of arrived at this idea that you know one thing. We've worked really hard to overcome. Is this you know. We're we're relatively new institution right worth by Western centers. Thirteen years old. We spent a lot of time trying to build up different systems to do things more professionally. And we're seen as a kind of leader in that way certainly here in China but you know honestly we've now faced with a situation where our whole spring and summer and fall program is not going to happen as planned and But we were instead able to come up with an entirely new exhibition with which will reopen godwilling at the end of next month. So somehow that agility not improvisation spirit End Up being strengths rather than weaknesses. Tell me something about those plans because oversee one of the key things is international. Travel is down international movement on the whole is down. So what have you done in terms of this new show than what did you have in place before that? You've had to cancel so the show is called meditations in an emergency you. It's AS Roma's to a book of poems. Written by Frank O'Hara the Mid Century American poet is actually better known during his lifetime as Moma curator And the relevance of the name is pretty immediate. But we've tried to take this situation that we're now faced with and look at it from a number of different angles so as a group show of somewhere around thirty artists. Many are Chinese voices. Established and emerging but many others are international who are participating in not by coming with studio teams Not by making huge shipments China's those things are impossible. But you know in this organizational process which is really only been a few weeks long. We sort of started from this idea that you know certain things that we took for granted before are no longer possible but also that there's probably a willingness certainly from our public but I think around the world as well to see what a show might look like under these new circumstances so people have been able ready to work with us given these circumstances whether that means letting US install a video work that maybe you know under ideal circumstances that would require a technician coming or even in in one or two cases producing work here. based on proposals and instructions and specs the end result will hopefully be an exhibition that opens while of the museums around. The world are are still not able to do that and that hopefully we'll bring our visitors back into the fold but also will provide a to people elsewhere that this isn't going to last forever so in terms of the The social security situation and the social distancing situation. Can you explain how you're GONNA manage that? Because of course this isn't going to be like the museum was before before you close the were into a new era. Absolutely I think one thing to remember. Is that different systems. Different countries work in different ways In China where this all began. Mask-wearing became universal. Almost immediately there was never a significant shortage of surgical masks. Oh and there was also this experience of SARS seventeen years ago. Where where? We're this at all happened once before. So that kind of has been the case in remains the case. Now there's also temperature taking and in fact data tracing scantest code with your cell phone and it verifies that you've been in Beijing for the last fourteen days incubation period And that's that's par for the course really at anywhere you might go be that a restaurant or store or any kind of public space even some streets some alleyways to enter. They'll be someone from the neighborhood. They're collecting information. So we will. We will do that in accordance with local and national regulations. But we'll try to do it in in such a way that still speaks to who we are and then specifically in terms of the exhibition. Of course we've gotten rid of multi touch surfaces right so there are no headphones to be worn by different people and then the exhibition design is also such that it allows people to keep the appropriate distance from one. Another one of the things about this seems to me that you've corralled a community The way that you're talking about the way this shows being put together and it seems to me that one of the things that has emerged from this period is there's there's a greater sense of your weirdly given that we're all isolated a great sense of communication in our local communities and within within our if you like amongst our peers. Is that true of your experience and is it something that can be used not just now but in the future as kind of a kind of blueprint for how we got forward from this. You know. It's it's definitely made clear the importance of art and helping us to envision forms of solidarity for for us the probably the most Cathartic moment of this whole process so far was on February twenty-ninth which was really kind of the end of the most intense period of this in China's just as things were coming into order and the was starting to maybe be a little bit insight. We hosted this online concert with a different musicians. All stuck at home improvising And it was it was actually group. Grew out of the show that we had on view called voluntary garden which we had to close when the museum closed. But was kind of fascinating was just this idea of. I think we had about one hundred thousand visitors all over China sitting at home together right sort of in the words of hip we shall. We had last year. I was a section called alone together. This this this chance to kind of convene and commune not just virtually or digitally but still in the same in the same time albeit in these different places is something quite unknown before and of course something that will have to continue in into the future. Because you know them. We don't yet know when other parts of the world you know. We've had some museums in Germany this week. Opening for instance but it looks like the US and the UK for instance on not going to be opening up for quite a few weeks. Yes so you know all you envisaging that this kind of On the one hand local blue so more improvised kind of approach to formulating programs is sort of the future for the foreseeable future. I think it's going to have to be and I and you know we spent so much time in the in the last year or two thinking about how to voluntarily reduce our carbon footprints. And you know these these kinds of it can also very urgent issues that this kind of new localism or regionalism sort of brought on by these more difficult circumstances is actually responsible and I I think it also allows us to do to get back to the city and on the artistic community at our doorstep in in a way that hopefully will be quite productive. And is it right that you go to sort of preemptive moment you you the show where you're sort of welcoming back visitors to the museum as sort of public space before the are actually goes back on view so in fact today we opened our front door for for the first time since January? Twenty four th when we when we when we closed for all of us we opened it to campaign where we're running right now. We're calling empty. Ucla so we. We don't have any art on view we just have in. Our Great Hall are sort of signature. Eighteen hundred square meter column free space. We have a few stocks of construction materials. That are they're ready to be incorporated into the coming show. We returned to recycle elements from our walls. But Yeah we just wanted to open the door and get people in this Hashtag empty. Ucr main wall at the entrance. And it's just a way I mean it's a dry run for us to test these kind of protocols that we're going to need to have in place when we when we do open with the show but it's also just to send a signal you know to to our members to the seven nine eight our district where we're situated to the city a bit more broadly to people elsewhere That that we're here that we're back. And we're excited to to to re engage unto you know try new things and alongside excitement. Is there any sense of trepidation? Who so because it is a new era that we're entering into his now. Oh absolutely I think time will tell right when this when this podcast airs if if the show has opened as scheduled because I think that the most important lesson that we've learned is that all the plans we make are subject to kind of women's much greater than a nearby US law sleep you all in a way. A blueprint for what happens to the rest of the world. Because as I say. We're some weeks off other museums elsewhere. Opening 'em all you in touch with the your international friends at museums across the world. And do you feel in a way that you will be a key kind of test for for how we museum community is not community emerge from this crisis? Absolutely I I mean I. I'll get emails. I think a lot of a museum professionals in here and elsewhere in Asia our will be enclosed with colleagues in Europe and the US and elsewhere. I was on a assume call last Friday with kind of all of the museum. Directors of New York and I was there with from plus and Eugene Tan from the National Art Gallery Singapore and Eugene who are board members of. Sema have actually gone so far as to put together a set of specific social distancing guidelines for museums. That are now being circulated more broadly So I think paradoxically it's actually forcing us all in enticing us all to talk to each other and learn from each other and that's that's exciting To sedan good luck with Oland look forward to hopefully evidently opening the doors and welcoming visits Thank you so much And finally this week. The latest in all series lemony works in which we look at artworks museums. Close because of the corona virus this week. We're returning to the met because the British artist one in has chosen Jackson pollock's autumn rhythm number thirty from nine hundred fifty one of the great drip paintings bullet made in a prolific period between nine hundred forty eight thousand nine hundred fifty one and you can see images of the work as we discuss the art newspaper. Dot Com Click on the link on the homepage and look for this episode. Why did you choose? Autumn Rhythm by Polit- well because of its initial impacts of of its continuing impact when I got him revisit. But it's very much attached to my memory of saliva went to New York in one thousand nine hundred eighty and mobike given over the entire building to a huge Picasso. Retrospective so the kind of abstract expressionism. One of the girls in New York a lot. What could be moved to the Brooklyn Museum at the back of a Metropolitan Museum in in quite a promising? I'm proficient kind of interim rooms and I think policy cafe remember even being displayed on a sort of a Hessian coverage cut of temples. There it was you know. And so I have a huge fullness for for that work and that moment and that was kind of one of the one of those completely satisfying experiences looking at work about actually was the sort of rather sort of unlikely slightly disjointed experience getting and then seeing what part of it in a way because it's an enormous is it's an enormous paintings and it's one of politics biggest. It is it. Is it almost fainting? And Yeah I'd probably dealing with my own fatigue kind of consuming so much all in the Metropol in the museum and you kind of lock in itself is quiet shattering and then yeah with the dossier of energy left. I found myself in this space and of course it it is its own kind of Zone bomb. Full that came before it. You know. It's one of the things I mean. It seems to talk about purity when it comes to pollock but it seems to me that ultimate Amisi in a way the period the paintings is this search finesse and elegance in those marks isn't there there is there is. I mean I think. Hearing about in reading about him. Looking at reproductions and but somehow in ones mind's eye early on you you have excellent deal pollock and quite often. Don't quite match up to this Pollock initially this is an Polo. It does everything that you have a high it would do. Yeah it it has nothing nothing. Impose opponent Blue Poles to the other things you know. It's that's a kind of like they feel a little bit too much of an imposition on. This is this is a a as a purist and the actually kind of confused onto the statements. He made about what he intended to do. The painting has a life of its own and he's obeying that sense. Yeah it's it's extraordinary. Moving experience I had you seen the namath film of Him. Making Autumn Rhythm before you saw the picture so in a way where you invested in the myth of Before you had this encounter with the word yeah I mean I think I think I saw it on foundation course so you know you have the missing and you kind of I think in my generation had to go drip painting and just an and the results Jerry horrible you know and and everything about that moment you know because you know he's painting up so then could be pretty turgid really you know and so it was like in one bound he was free and and you know inspiration revelation Everything in those terms come comes together And that move from the ground up on the wall. I mean this is a yeah. It's like a physical metaphysical shift. There are no other paintings that do lie. And and so so it's rhythms and it's a line is as much to do with between pollock's gesture what gravity and everything else add to movements it. It's a perfect summation really. Yeah Yeah and of course. It came to the tate in nineteen ninety nine for a spot of extraordinary Jackson. Pollock exhibition I want to do you remember seeing in that show did in a way you've seen in this space in the Matt as you say we've visited it but seeing in your on your own turf as it were wanted. That experience was like it was wonderful but actually quite attached to to to wear is you know I mean I suppose one thinks of the National Gallery and the Titan serves to the Matt a moment you know. Those are funny. Somebody at the end of a post impressionism beginning of cubism. The is somewhere between them between the remits. You know and so yeah because it feels bowl the only one of its kind species in that the natural history of painting in the in that place that I don't like to sink and that speaks to what the reason we're doing this because all these museums currently shot and we want to in a way bring people's minds and is back to these paintings and thinking about this is crucial. Isn't it the space in which works? It's one's memories of a work have also bound up with the physical. Experience is visiting not just looking at him absolutely absolutely. I mean I remember another time. I was staying with some friends and Canal Street early nineties and decided I was. GonNa walk away to the met and I've got some new sandals which would shredding my fate by the time I got sick to central park so it really was a very painful pilgrimage. You know still worth it. Did you feel like you're on the on the road to Yoga? Es Telling US statistic took it took Find out more about awesome at met Museum Dot Org and you can see the latest work by Montvale in response to London under lockdown on the front page of the mansion of the newspaper which is APP next week. And that's it for this week described to the newspaper at the newspaper. Dot Com subscribing to the top left of the homepage and precepts his podcast. If you haven't already gives rating being if you've enjoyed you could find us on twitter facebook. Instagram and telegraph. You can find the telegram. Invite Code at the top of our newsletters the producers of the weekend GD housekeeper. Amy Dawson and David. David USA does the editing. Thanks to Francis Dan to Philip. At the moment I think for listening. We'll see you next week. Good bye now. We cannot Christie's visit Christie's to come to find out more about the wealth leading auction house in seventeen sixty six auction private sales online anytime.

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Ways of Seeing: Sheila Heti on Pierre Bonnard

FT Everything Else

33:58 min | 2 years ago

Ways of Seeing: Sheila Heti on Pierre Bonnard

"Hello. This is everything else. The F T culture podcast. I'm Grizz commissioning editor on the arts desk. So back and this time on a Friday on today's episode the gains take a short walk along the river Thames from the FTC London offices to take modern, but we're not going to meet an artist, but gain to meet one of my favorite writers, Sheila Hettie. Sheila had he writes, the kind of stories that take place as much in the characters heads as they do in the outside world of plot a novels like these where the action where the most interesting stuff is really in these thoughts and feelings a some of my favorite books when I first read her novel, how should a person be a few years ago. I was hooked. How should a person be is subtitled a novel from life and it plays. Really interestingly with this boundary between fiction and real life kind of free. Wheeling episode coming of age tale Rishon from a writer's point of view is a really great kind of meditation on friendships about how friends shape each other, particularly when you're in your twenties. And also where we draw the boundaries in all relationships. She'll Hattie published her first book the middle stories when she was just twenty four. She's now in her early forties. And she published a book last year called motherhood. Like, how should a person be the book motherhood takes as it starting point? A question. Should I have a child and also what does it mean not have a child? I was really surprised at she. When I saw that Sheila was coming all the way to London from Toronto to see an exhibition at Tate modern of paintings by the French artist Pierre on our because as far as I knew there was no obvious connection between the two, but as I was about to discover sheila's grandfather, George Hetty was also a painter who loved Bonar recent events in her life had set her thinking about Baez painting in a profound way. I'd never met her before in person. But who works had a real impact on me. And shaped the way I've read so much other contemporary fiction, even when I interviewed Sally Rooney on the podcast six months ago. We talked about Sheila Hattie and about the way Howard shows what's possible in writing. Now how you can break with traditional modes so all of these thoughts going through my head when I set. Out from the FTC offices and walked along the Thames early one morning. I ride at the gallery before had opened to the public. It was completely deserted. Except for the staff he worked there who getting ready for that day. And when I went into the rooms of the box addition, it felt really large echoey when usually it's absolutely packed with people Sheila. Thank you took into the podcast. You're welcome. I wonder if I could I ask you a general question about joy, e to painting as an art form your writer, but someone I understand this been sort of interested in painting for a long time. I like thinking about writing through the lens of what painters do rather than through what other writers do suppose painters deal with formal problems in a more interesting to me sort of way, always trying to push what what you can do on the candidates and the various different ways that you can represent in a way that I think writers tend to be a little bit more conservative in the case of Bonar like he painted not from looking at models ever. But just from thinking from memory and recollection and as a writer, you're always writing from memory and recollection. Right with the thing in front of you trying to represent it. So we start looking around the shine. As you say fauna painted not from life, but for memory, which I think is one of the really fascinating aspects of this show. And and why some of these works seem to me to have a session strangeness about them. I'm interested in in how you might perceive any parallels in your own it's different with different books. Of course. But I think one thing that I see in this paintings that I feel like I understand formerly on some level is painting. There's often like one one you see that the painter standing in one place and all the objects relate to that single perspective from which the painter is looking at the room or whatever. But with Bonar because he's not looking at the objects. He's just recollecting them. There's this strange sort of set of perspectives in a single painting. So a jug might be looked at sort of slightly from one angle and the table from a slightly other angle there's this way that the objects hang together, not quite natch. Realistically, and I feel like there's something similar in the kind of writing that I do which is. An angle on my life, but not always the same angle. So I feel like certain scenes are quite close to my life almost as they were and others are so distorted and it's all within the same frame. So there's something similar going on there. Just if we will vote to this from a painting of bonus cooled, Kathy. It's a deceptively simple scene of a woman drinking coffee Cup sort of seems to be breakfast table. Maybe it's mid moaning this dog is someone else passing something across the table. Most of the picture plane is taken up by this red checkered tablecloth, and yet what you say about the tilting perspectives about the fact that we see the top of tea Cup. We see the teapot from a slightly different angle. This to me seems to be kind of typical of the thing about one which is every day and domestic. And millia. And yet we see it in a way that feels strange new. Yes. And there's this strange ribbon down the right hand side of the canvas. Which doesn't look like it's depicting anything that was actually there. It's just a decorative element which gives gives the painting such a strange quality like a kind of what's he doing? Why why is that ribbon? There. Why is that design there on the edge? If everything else is in some sense, what he is seeing in his mind recollecting will that was that's what breakfast looks like here. What's that ribbon doing there? And I love that. He saying this art, you know. This isn't life. This is this is an artistic representation and this design down the right is just makes the composition hole and add something kind of beautiful mysterious to it. He's not just trying to say this is what the room look like there's something else going on something that I'm interested in terms of this new work as well. As is the fact that it is it's every day. It's domestic is life as it happens to us day in day out. You knew some times it said if you'll books that quote, not happens. But in fact, life is what happens I think at least for myself life happened so much in the mind in recollecting life and thinking about it and try to understand it in trying to understand how to go through it. And to me, that's that's such a huge component of life. Not any great events. You know, just how do you? Life is not just relating to other people. But your thoughts about your relationships to other people. So yeah, I feel like my books take place much more in the mind than they do in the the actual interactions. And I think that's true these paintings as well. Like, there's yes, those are the people that are presumably around him. That's his wife that's his dog. But that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is how he sees his wife how he seizes dog what he sees of their relationship. His his perception of the his perception of it is so much more interesting than than what's going on SRI McCoy threes. So here we sitting in front to bonus painting nude crouching in the tub. Yes, it's sort of this mute painting sort of centered in the canvases, a nude woman in a shallow probably metal tub and her arms are reaching down. And I wouldn't have have posed his wife like this. He's not he's not actually painting from a modal heresy. He has this wonderful quote. Somebody asked him would you paint this object? I don't know how it happened. Maybe she brought an object to him. We would you paint this this plate, and he said, no, I haven't lived with a long enough to paint it. And I love that this idea that he had that he had to have lived with something for a long time to painted. He had to paint objects that were very deeply familiar to him that had been in his life for years, these jugs this these windows, his wife, just what was familiar and intimate to? Him those were the things that he painted. It's a very different way of relating to subject matter. You know, that I think that's kind of beautiful because to me what that affirms is what life naturally does which is it begins to repeat, and especially as you get older and life stops changing so much, and there's more consistency. There's a way of feeling like there's something there's some failure in that. We'll shouldn't always be interesting shouldn't always be happening and changing. And and what Nour's painting sort of show me is that no there's a kind of solidity and truth and beauty in the repetitions in being able to make art from these repetitions that yet cohere into a single form. Will in new in your novel house should a pass and be it seems like one of part of that question is. Was it kind of wish the person be should you be constantly seeking out newness should GP traveling. Should he be sort of going where all the cool kids are? In a how should you be? And why should you be a part of the same question? Yes. I think in writing that book, I was trying to reassure myself that it's okay to be in one place. It's okay to have this one friend. It's okay to to limit yourself because. That's the only way to reach any kind of depth that you know. And in fact, this this compulsion for new experiences, which seems like a broadening of your horizons, and which seem like. New information is can become the same information over and over again. And how should be the narrator of that book is the right to coach Sheila, he has a friend Maga who's a painter in in real life. You you have a friend Mauger. He's a painter and part of the novelist conversations that you recorded and transcribed as well. As emails, and I'm wondering what that process of of kind of translation is between this real material of life and the work of fiction will there were hundreds and hundreds of pages of transcripts. So even just even just the act of choosing seven or twelve out of hundreds of pages is saying what's interesting or what's interestingly, not interesting. And if you take the whole entire transcript, you can get to the essence of it. You don't need hundreds of pages to to say what it is. So I think for me translation from life into art is just trying to find the essence of life in little moments that reveal with the texture of the whole is like so that practice has evolved in motherhood, which is. You don't have these transcriptions emails in the same way. But there is the Steelers sense that the narrators life feels well, I didn't know is it feels as a reader that is not your life. Of course, that this is this is a creation, but the some relationship that it's really interesting to think about yeah, it's the there's the it has something to do with my life. But then the context that I put the character in I wanted to be not exactly where I find myself as a woman among other women, but we're many women find themselves other women. So, you know, in the book, there's this sort of expectation or pressure or this feeling of being crowded by all these people having children, and I wanted to give the character that because I think that a lot of women find themselves in that place. I read something that to me seemed really interesting that you write about allowing the thoughts in your life that were kind of the wallpaper of your life, come to the foreground, which is interesting sitting in this exhibition because that's quite a painting metaphor as well. And these these are the wallpaper of life when you women in your thirties, I think particularly children and child bearing and your mother, and whether you might be a mother these all part of the wool paper. Yes. And I found all those Ambien thoughts very irritating. You know? And I was just trying to do everything I could to push from my mind and say to myself like think about more important things like this is so distracting, and this is so frustrating, and the more that I did that the more I realize actually you should probably pay attention to these thoughts, and there's probably something here. And and there's always something in those thoughts that you wanna push away. And and those thoughts that feel irritating and like they shouldn't be there. Why are you thinking that they shouldn't be there? You know, why not actually pay attention to them? So the book it was difficult to write the book because the that's not what I wanna think about I don't wanna put all that thought into the question of maternity and into the question of my body is a woman, and what I wanted to do versus what it seems to want to do or you know, what it doesn't want to do frustratingly or gladly, you know, but I just hadn't seen that depicted in literature. This. This moment in the lives of many people were that question of whether to have children what it means not to was central question. And to try to look at it philosophically and also try to look at it through the lens of well biologically, you know, because we're not just philosophical creatures were were animals, and yeah, the the philosophical where thinking is not always the way that the was actually happened in your head. You know, when you formulate them more if you were to essay about them. That's how they come out. But that's not really at least in my head how they exist. Now. It's so circular in so repetitive. And I try to do that in the book like give that feeling of how exhausting and frustrating. Those questions are that they don't quite answer themselves. And there's this spiraling, you know. And hopefully, you spiral to another place. But in the moment, it just feels like spiraling. We will share. In toronto. I work in Margot's painting studio, I go there every morning, we work every morning together. Margaux Williamson who's a friend of mine who's that Margot? How should a person be? And so when I'm working I see her canvases progress every day and in this room that we're in. It's so interesting the Tate took the frames off five of the paintings. And this is what I what I see every day as I'm working, and what's so beautiful. I love that. They did this. What's so beautiful is what they say is that they wanted you to see the paintings the way that Bonaire saw them as he was working on them, which is not in the gilded frame, you know, and that makes sense because if you're recalling a scene there's no edges around recollection. And you kind of feel like that, especially when the frames are taken off a canvases that there's this kind of way in which the paintings could conceivably move off onto the wall in a way that many other painters you? Would you would feel that that even with the frames off? It's still bound by the by the edges, and you don't feel that with these. So this one that's just in front of us. I think it's called the table and it similar to the paint looking at earlier of the people having coffee here. It seems like it's maybe lunch or it's now the mill, but is similar scene that the table cloth laid with all different kinds of plates and things takes up most of the Countess. But I mean the way that the memory works. It's a sort of a real scene, but it's not a real seemed because it's recollected seen remembered scene. Hensil the strange perspectives that you were talking about before maybe it was. So this slight feeling of instability. Does that does that say something about the nature of memory to you? I guess so. You feel in these in these paintings that the colors are not necessarily the colors that they would have been in real life. But they're not not the colors, they would have been in real life. But there's some strange relationship to the colors that life is. And it's interesting because he was painting at this time that people were doing all sorts of very innovative things nineteen twenty five he painted this. So, you know, we're sort of in the wake of zen, and this is I think around the same time that Bracken Picasso, we're doing their revolutions. And but NAR at the time was sort of thought not to be as revolutionary, but he is doing that too. But in a much more subtle way because he is playing with time and the way that the objects are on the canvas does show sort of multiple times on the same plane like we're talking about like those plates are not all looked at from the same perspective in the same moment. But it's so subtle. Image. Didn't how this might. Parallels. And comparisons might be to your work, how time functions and your work and the way that you write. Well, I think a lot of writers use time as sort of storytelling time. So there's there's a narrative that goes through aid to beat a CD. And that's how time is the passing of of narrative, and I feel like for me. What's more interesting about time is the way that you have all these generations inside jail time kind of collapses inside the present living individual. There's the time of all your ancestors that kind of manifests in who you are. And how you live, and is relived in some sense in you, and the soul of the people that that your life comes from. And I think your rain is probably formed in similar form. How your ancestors brains reform that life relives every time? And so I like the idea of time as this kind of return of of the people who pre. Obviously lived and in your body. They're they are. And what you're supposed to do time is not just for yourself or in relationship to your own life. But for those who came before you in in relation to their lives in some sense. So I mean, there's this very individualistic way. We look at the self today, and it's just me. But the more that I write in the more that I think the more I feel like I'm not just me. I'm all the people that came before me, and what I tried to do in this last book was sort of not just solve my problems. But solve the problems of my grandmother and her mother, and yeah, all these people who kind of the residue of them is in me, it just somehow feels more true and more interesting and more connected, unless alienating to to think about the self that way. It's interesting in mother hit the idea of maybe choosing to pass things Ford, but depaz things back. Can you say about how that is? And how that feels. Yeah. There's there's nothing that we can know about about the world of spirit if it exists or we don't know anything, you know, all we knows what we can touch. But there is a feeling that I had after my father died of suddenly seeing colors, and I'd never really notice colors before which serves sounds strange. But I felt like I was suddenly seeing how I was suddenly sort of overwhelmingly moved by the colors in the world. And like I had this new sense that I hadn't had before. And perhaps it was just the way that everything feels heightened after after you lose a parent, or after some cataclysmic thing happens, suddenly you're alive in a new way because the world feels so present to you. But it could become a live in so many different ways and had this desire of wanting to capture the colors and wanting to keep them, which I imagine this is how many painters must feel you just want you want to capture that color. You want to say what how they? Seem together. And I just had this thought of one day. I wonder if there's some way in which one an ancestor dies if the their spirit somehow comes into the lives of those still living, and if that is so then my father's will be have carried his his painter father's spirit inside him. And that would have got into me. And here I am now sort of seeing colors the way my grandfather might have what he loved about was the colors. That's when he describes his favorite painting. He doesn't start by describing the objects in it. He starts by describing the colors. So it's it's it's horrible to have somebody you love die. But it's it's also a portal to like a whole new way of perceiving the world and seeing and feeling things that you didn't feel before. Are you writing differently? I think so it's still so soon it was only five months ago. So it's still a little soon to say but a little bit because. Nothing seems to matter in the same way anymore. Like would somebody who loved is like all things that mattered so much stop mattering in the same way. And and I feel like there's a certain kind of liberation that when you're working as an artist, you just realize that that doesn't even matters much as you thought it did and that can bring a new kind of looseness or something to your to your writing. She continue the center. I like this, quote, these photographs of benign a corner of a studio were taken less summer at Deauville as intimate testimony of the solitary in simple life of the artist. And it's just so you know, they have a photograph of him sitting in front of the window smoking, his solitary and simple life. But of course, he had a wife did a mistress. No one's life is actually that solitary and simple, but the nice romance of that life can actually be simple taking the photograph on the. Yes. There's somebody there taking a photograph in the room with him. Like how simple is that? How solitaire is that? So this self portrait that we're looking at the books, you know, it's not conventional in that he's not sort of holding in a paintbrush and standing an easel instead of scrutinizing himself. Instead, he's shut less and holding up a fist in the position of books. It's an. Old self portrait in that sense. We know you know, that he can't you can't paint yourself as a book, sir. And be making a painting at the same time. So again, it's this transition into memory. He wasn't looking at himself in the mirror in that pose. And it's funny because he's it's called the boxer, but this really like no strength in his posture. Yeah. There's it's such a strange picture. Do you think about your own writing in relation to autistic, south portrait's, like in that sense of that transition from something that's personal an an alive to something? That's a work of all innocence removed from the the person. Yeah. And I don't really think that I'm writing about myself, even though a lot of factual as I am may be just I feel like I'm making an art object. And I'm using myself the same way he's using the shape of his body. But it's not about his body. It just uses his body the same way that he uses a jug. Because so I feel like I've used myself in that same way that it's good to have a you need to have a model and. You're the closest model that you have to what a human is. So so I use myself in that sense. But it's not because I'm interested in myself. I'm not trying to do psychoanalysis on myself in any way. It's just the closest self to me. Yeah. Me. That we're now is painted. It's a big room. It's painted this kind of pale creamy yellow color sort of sings something that Baez critics at the time said if his what Chris that he was painting happiness. I'm not sure about that. What's you? What's your feeling about his relationship to happiness? I don't feel like the paintings make me happy. I don't think that they're happy paintings. I see I can see why people might have thought that at a time to very simple reading. I I see the more sadness in the paintings than than happiness, or at least an even this. You know, the way that that life is all things maybe it comes back to the idea of it being a compulsive experience that it's a moment of flash of happiness and inspiration the slow build up of days, some of which happy some of which less happy xactly. Exactly, you know, they say that everyone has a certain level. Of happiness, you know, the sort of predetermined, and no matter what happens to bad things good things will always return to that level. And and all these paintings seem to be at whatever the same level is that theory, something that you believe in. Yeah. I think that that's my experience of the world that you always come back to your your characteristic level of happiness. So how should be on motherhood both questioning nobles they're asking these questions about how should we live? What does it mean to mother? What does it mean, not mother interested in the idea of happiness and sit of off illness, maybe in in life, is that is that you think about maybe more trying to find your way through all the patterns of how you're supposed to be and. Yeah. I mean, I think I think the the best life that you can live is one that that doesn't take the forms that you that you unconsciously feel like you have to embody like if you can sort of get around those if they're not native to you. I think that's a better life, not necessarily unthinkingly conforming to the expectations that have been pasta to especially in terms of motherhood. I mean, I think just having children is I think of it now is a calling and if you're called to it, you should do it. And if you're not called to maybe not, you know, we don't have to do it. It's not important for the world to have children. We obviously have more than enough humans. And so if you feel like you can make a great citizen of the world, and and create an empathetic person. And that's what you can do. That's a gift that you have. Then for sure do it obviously the world needs that. But otherwise, there's so much else to do, you know, when you wake up, do you? Do you feel the same? Much to do e app. But not interesting things. I mean, just the daily things, but no it's very nice when I can clear a day and actually do the work that I feel is important for me to do. But so often, it's just everything else. Crowds it out when does the writing happen. And how do you make space with all? I wrote fifty minutes before I came to see you you just I just make space. Well, sometimes I have if I'm at home, and I have I'm in my routine than I than I like work all morning, and and how that concentrated time. But if not I can just find time in between other things, I don't know somehow happens that happens fifteen minutes before we met you just. I want to get I want to write this down. I'm working on a new book, and a friend that I was out with last night wanted to read it in this morning. I thought okay, I've got twenty minutes, I'll send it to her. And I thought oh, I actually I can I can make some changes. So I just edited and took some chapters out of move some things around and then sent a tour. So it wasn't new writing. It was heading and few editing important kind of creative thing. Yeah. It changes the book. I mean, the stuff that I took out was stuff that everyone wanted me to take a long all my other friends thought, I should take. I thought no no it's very important that it's there, and then I took it out this morning. And I thought actually I think they were righted didn't need to be there. So now, I have a friend reading it without and I'll see if she says this just something missing than on though that I shouldn't have. Romolo the getting that kind of feedback. It's so necessary and so tough. Yeah. It's it's tough. But it's also fun because it's important and interesting to see it through other people's eyes, and I just share my work with so many of my friends all the way through because it's you know, it's almost like stepping back from the canvas imagine like a painter paint. And then they step back and see what it looks like. And then they move close. And for me like, I the stepping back is showing it somebody else hearing their response, and then I can go back to it and people give feedback in very different ways. So one friend will have an hour long conversation with me, and I'll get four pages of great notes and other as they're reading it. We'll just send me text messages, and you know, excerpts of the sentences that they like our paragraphs, and and some people take months to read it like, it's it's all different. It's just part of my relationships with people, and I read stuff that my friends, right and give them feedback. It's just part of our relationship. So you twenty four when you book was published middle store. I wonder how daily life as a writer is is different fee now than then presumably this more security now, but but what are the other differences? There's more confidence. There's more sense of trusting myself. I have twenty years of experimenting and writing to to draw on. So I'm not starting from nothing. Whereas when I was twenty four, and I or my early twenties right in my first book, I just felt like starting from absolutely nothing, and I had to build up every single element book by book, I had to build up a the sentence that how I wanted the sentence to sound on the page. I had to build up. What did I want to think about on the page? I had to build up. What do I believe characters? So at this point, I feel like I have a many of those things. It's just so different. You still experimenting? Yeah. Yeah. Always because I'm still so curious about so much and my feeling about what life is changes. And so the writing has to change when you say confident do feel Copeland with every book that book will be good that people will receive that book. And in the way that you wanted to. Received. No, I wouldn't say the confidence extends to that. It's more just alone in the room. I know how to trust myself. That's what I mean by confidence. I notified low things and that following things a good thing. And I can always go somewhere else. Whereas I think when I was younger I really had to train myself to follow my impulses. But now I realize that's the only way to proceed. It's good advice. She has thank you full looking around the Bonyads vision with me, it was so fun. Thank you. So in joy during that interview, even more than I thought, I might I think something to do with that is the fact of where we were in an exhibition the something about talking to somebody and not being sitting across the table from each other with microphones something about the freedom looseness of being able to look at paintings while speaking to somebody I felt like opened up the conversation in a different kind of way. I I maybe it takes the pressure of things is like when you have to have a difficult chat with somebody about something you go for walk in order to do it. See didn't have the intensity of contact all the time. I think by freeing up. You're looking is the frees up the conversations. Well, I was really struck by how thoughtful she Loas how specific she was in her observations about Boehner. But also the way that she responded to his work, and I loved it when she said that that unite bona was interested in Inc different perspectives. All in one painting like Picasso was doing, but unlike Picasso's cubist experiments when I wasn't doing this in a set of self consciously experimental way, he was doing it because he felt like it was true to life. It was his memory of life and the people he loved the things that he loved distilled into the converse. And I went back to the exhibition of speaking to Sheila, and what she said made me see the works in a different way in made me feel differently about them. For this week. We'll be back in two weeks time on a Friday from now on we'd love to hear from you. You can Email us everything else. F T dot com. Everything else is produced by David alters. I've been Maree Brown on us. It is composed by fashion.

Sheila writer Bonar Sheila Hattie Toronto Bracken Picasso Baez FTC Sheila Hettie Sally Rooney editor Rishon Steelers Margot Howard Margaux Williamson Deauville Pierre Nour
 Will coronavirus wreck your holiday plans? The first London Mayor poll of 2020; & Andy Warhol is back at the Tate Modern...

The Leader

15:16 min | 1 year ago

Will coronavirus wreck your holiday plans? The first London Mayor poll of 2020; & Andy Warhol is back at the Tate Modern...

"Thanks for listening to the leader and you can help us grow our audience just by hitting a button press subscribe and it'll tell you podcast provider that this is a show that people like to hear so they'll tell others about it. Review helps to and you can always tell us what you think by getting in touch on social media with the Hashtag delete a podcast now from the evening standard in London. This is the leader. Hi I'm David Moslem. We'll corona virus wreck your holiday. The impact has been greater than any terrorism scare in previous years. It just gives you an idea of the of the scale of it as BA cancels all flights into and out of Italy the Evening Standard Jonathan print looks at how the infection is hurting tourism. Also the Tories and the independent candidate Roy Stewart. The former cabinet minister neither have really shown element up political editor. Joe Murphy on a poll showing city con has a huge lead in London. Mayor election is the time for others to catch up. And don't get to see many of those major works close. There is this room which in my review I refer to as a kind of now. That's what I call warhol display on. A greatest hits display critic. Ben Luke's new blockbuster Andy Warhol Exhibition at Tate. Modern and he's given it three stars taken from the Evening Standard editorial column. This is the leader for the whole thing. Pick up the newspaper or had to stand doco. Uk slash comment in a moment has corona virus. Cancelled your holiday. You can hear the birds again in central Rome with the city. Under lockdown any traffic's limited didn't distant. It sounds lovely but you'll struggle to go as well as Dona virus restrictions inside it'll EPA's counseled all flights into and out of the country. Passengers planning to travel between now and April four for being offered different destinations or a refund. It's not the only airline being affected while the only destination in trouble or consumer business editor Jonathan Prince with me. Don't then we're hitting that point during the corona virus spread when people are Jane you in these starting to worry about their holidays expect and that's not a trivial thing is it. No THEY'RE NOT. You'll think it's all in for most people there. The thing that sort of gets through the year the one thing that most people are very loath to give up because Holidays provide that Fantastic rest by in a in a in a in a stressful world but ironically the travel industry looks like it really is on the front line of this particular crisis. Ba as you say canceling all flights in Italy today run. Aaron Easyjet still flying in and out so viscerally on Albion reduced shedules but one can anything. That's going to be much more of this. As the number of cases increases in other popular holiday destinations. What's underneath is likely to happen. In other countries yeah. We're looking at places like Spain which over the weekend so a doubling of the number of people with Karuna versa nights another really popular polity British people. It's Britain's favorite holiday destination and many millions of people will be already booked into holidays in on the Kosters As well as Greece and other countries in southern Europe so as epidemic. If that's what we're calling it now unfolds. There is a potential for absolutely massive dislocation to the travel and holiday sector with many small businesses in particular Facing potential bankruptcy. We've already seen flyby collapse of course and the Australian airline Qantas. It says it's going to be reducing capacity. I believe yes. They are reducing capacity. By of course effectively on on the global route network as a as a precaution which is probably very sensible move. That's probably the sort of scale of downturn in passenger numbers that will we're going to see around the world already with forward bookings into Europe generally from China down something like Ninety percent the impact has been greater than any terrorism scare in previous years Just gives you an idea of the of the scale of in New York and Broadway. Today one of the producers announced. He was cutting ticket. Sales from hundred dollars. To fifty does not being a fall in ticket sales there yet but he wants to stop that from happening. I'm wondering if in London they're going to be looking at things like that and going. How do we keep people coming out to things like shows two cinemas and that kind of thing Before Karuna viruses and even during it? I'm sure we will be saying that. The restaurant trade understand is done about fifty percent in the West End. It's it's a matter of time. Before all sorts of cut-price specials Of Been Offered Londoners Citron. Gotten to come out and spend money but I I guess the problem is GonNa be if people genuinely scared It doesn't matter how cheap the meal is. They're not gonNA come if they think. The downside is expose themselves to the risk of catching corona virus. So but I'm sure we will see that. I'm sure there'll be some amazing offers. In the top shows the Hamiltons and so on in the west end in into course if if this carries on the way scientists are predicting because it's going to be a question of of survival for theaters and restaurants and other western businesses in London. Were that tourists will very different city. What word I in London says Olympics tourism has grown very rapidly in London Until last year when there seems to be in a bit of a Brexit's effects or delayed terrorism of facts and numbers were down but they appear to be recovering again. Just until the point that this Corona virus scary took off. So I I'm sure Chinese Among the high spending visitors to London and their oversee very thin the ground at the moment the Americans understand. Now not coming to town as well so You know the implications for the West End in the broader London. Economy are pretty horrendous next. The only person who really look sitting pretty is Rico. One more point he wins out right and it goes to a second round the second preferences he wins sixty seven. Thirty News Goes Joe. Mafia on the London election has city-khan got it wrapped up over eighty the first London mayor poll of Twenty Twenty Show city-khan strengthening his lead with an almost two to one margin over the conservative Shawn Bayley independent role restored remained. Some way behind with just thirteen percent. Editorial column says the challenges aren't doing enough to inspire the electric right now. The London mayor election that is set to happen on. May Seventh. Isn't the first thing on people's minds but it still matters in a new poll. The current mayor Labor's Siddiq. Khan is well ahead. He is on forty nine percent off for points since November. The Tory candidate. Sean Bailey is way behind and independent restrict even further back the Lib Dem's and Greens and nowhere. They should all be doing better while Mr Khan has done well to reflect the values of the city his record on things such as housing a knife crime is poor. This ought to be fertile ground for serious contest. There are still two months to go. It's time for the challenges to up their game. Blida glad to Joe Murphy's in Westminster Office Joe. This looks great city. Come but I'd expect pretty disappointing for the conservative campaign. I think there are two stories here. One is Carney's four points. He's now unfortunately percent one more point and he gets over fifty percents and let things. He would win outright in round two. The second story is the Tories and the independent candidate. Roy still the former cabinet. Hoste neither have really showed any momentum. Sean Bailey says. Canada is up a point where that's kind of within the margin of error it's not the big momentum that he ought be seeing after after this long and the other problem for him this. This could be an Achilles heel showing. He's only recognized by a third of London when you ask a series of questions asked Queen Mary University of London date for this poll. Being thought of him. Roughly two-thirds of people can answer replied. Don't know which means it Sean. Bailey after eighteen months as the official concept of candidates has a very low profile. Londoners and Rory Stewart's an interesting candidate because if he deka into a final run-off whiskey called he would lose but more narrowly than Sean Bailey. Because he has more cross party appeal that something. That's come out of this poll at the moment he doesn't look as as GonNa get over the line. He's thirty percent and the Liberal Democrats haven't fared very well a tall afraid Porsche Vaughn. Benita they've done candidate is the person who has given those full points to Sadique Com or had them squeezed out her campaign by his. This is a bit disappointing Hurley. Show because she stood as an independent candidate I can twenty twelve and she got four percents which was mark of the good result for independent now. She's the Fish Little Democrat cancer. And she's got percents city. Cont going to walk this race or other opportunities for the other campaigns to try and get some momentum before the vote which is kind of looming pretty quickly are two months pretty well campaign to go so you could see these numbers change. They might change dramatically at the moment. The only person who really looked sitting pretty is seduced. Come one more point. He wins out right and it goes to a second round the second preferences he wins sixty seven thirty three looks as though he's in line for a second term and we have lots of mayoral election coverage and analysis from Joe and the rest of our politics team in the newspaper or online at Standard Okuda. Uk forward slash politics now Marilyn Monroe's there and so the soup cans. It's all part of a huge exhibition of Andy Warhol's works at Tate. Modern some of its familia some never seen in the UK before some unseen for decades. Harsh critic Ben. Luke has had a look and given the blockbuster three stars Ben. Why three a feel like the tape set out with a really powerful ambition to present present a new kind of Warhol. You don't get to see many of those major works up close. There is this room. Which in my review I referred to as a kind of now. That's what I call warhol display on greatest hits display you. Get a Marilyn. You get you get Jackie. You get a coke bottles. The suit can to get the Brillo boxes series but really the whole period is summed up in one single room. The Tate's been sailing this as containing material that people may never have seen before. Some things have been rarely exhibited never exhibited before. Is there anything special? Among the reason why we haven't seen these objects and there is a really. I think wonderful series could ladies and gentleman which is a nineteen seventy five series which focuses on a group of black and letting drag Queens and Trans Women which I've never seen any examples of before actually and there's also this extraordinary room which is a recreation of the exploding plastic inevitable. Which is the these velvet underground gigs? Where you'd have these really trippy trip. The light fantastic experiences lots of projections of mad films of the velvet underground themselves and other sort of very deeply counter cultural goings on there. Were also the bodies of which I I feel. The take really could have focused on. For instance says one of the Torso series. Which is this very homo. Erotic series that he did. And there's only one of those in the show and I feel like if they really wanted to emphasize Warhol's queer identity. They really could've gone into that in much greater depth. I think they're restricted partly by space. But also maybe restricted partly by the fact that they had to do a warhol blockbuster you get to see him though. There are photographs of him taken. The factory has says famous studio those work when you see them up close can you get an insight into who will hold laws. He I think that's one of the key aims of the show and it's partly successful so there. Stephen shows photographs which he took in the factory. Fan of you know. Whoa Ho with eighty sedgwick and the wool host superstars Viva and other people. That were too key. Denizens of that counterculture. Based around Warhol in his factory in New York and also the screen tests those amazing films that will host shoots of various people of different levels of celebrity. So there's Dennis Hopper Hopper screen test is magnificent so it's just basically a fixed camera and there's hopper staring at you and most of the time. Actually he sort of looking down. Katie looks up little smirk. Andy Warhol bringing that that sort of blank you like aesthetic of the paintings into film and you get these weather. Extraordinary intent focuses on individuals. You have Dennis Hopper LCD Showy de Sedgwick some of these key figures that were operating around wall hoses kind of magnet of New York coach. Does it make any difference to go and see them in possible? One of the things about Warhol's works is that they are beautiful. Physical objects you know. See them up close to see them often the size of a wall. You know a massive things. Beautifully made you know. They are stunning. Objects that delicate affects of the process of production so they sort of using photos and screen printing this particular technique he developed and you see the kind of inconsistencies in the nuances of those techniques in a way that you never do in reproduction. And that's alita subscribe to make sure you don't miss our news commentary and analysis every day at four PM. We'll see tomorrow.

Andy Warhol London Sean Bailey London Joe Murphy Uk Roy Stewart Ben Luke Evening Standard Italy New York Marilyn Monroe West End Dennis Hopper David Moslem Europe cabinet Rome Queen Mary University of Londo
Review: Sophie Taueber-Arp

Monocle 24: Culture with Robert Bound

31:14 min | Last week

Review: Sophie Taueber-Arp

"Hello and welcome to monaco culture with me of a balanced. It's been so good to be back out and about enjoying galleries and museums again. The last few weeks and months and set it feels extra wonderful to bring back art review. We've been unable to do the last year. Also the exhibition up for discussion today is a major retrospective of swiss artist sophie toyota which just opened at tate. Modern straddling the worlds of art and design toy art was at the forefront of twentieth century. Avon god and a key. Part of zurich dada movement by the end of world war one she danced cabaret voltaire created marionettes for the stage in designed the interiors of the obits building in strasbourg. Well also creating famous abstract paintings and dr heads. She lived across europe. Munich zurich and paris and this exhibition traces. Her life which was cut short of she tragically died of carbon monoxide poisoning. Age fifty three in nineteen forty-three. It's a vast show with huge amount of work spanning paintings drawings textiles puppets interior design furniture and personal artifacts piece together of vibrant career joining me to discuss sophie toy up on the program today austrian would head of content as listen gallery and the art writer ama- rose abrahams Welcome to the program. Lovely to have you here. Rcn hello welcome back to the fold. It's been a while i've aged. i didn't recognize. He's like singapore candle. That's wonderful years. The year is being county. Apparently year counted so. I'm actually your older. Although i wasn't prepared for that birthday i was like that's it. That's the end of that year but apparently did count Did you haven't gone. Liz taylor and decided just to deduct numbers from your your age. Cullens is it will change the biography afterwards. Absolutely we will go. Go back with backwards. On year like stopping at clock dodgy secondhand car rose abrahams. Welcome to the program for the first time. It's lovely to have you love. They hit thanks man. Also trying to provide good vibes. It's it's strange sometimes. Deputation you radio program. It is but goodbye important and make all the different so i've introduced sophie toyota offers so few toy. All i'm arose. I'm saying toyota toyota. Okay awesome if i can pronounce it now. I feel under pressure. Okay talbot toyota okay. Tiber previously known. Probably as hands up or your arps wife. Yes we saw that referred to peggy guggenheim in the catalog. Yeah joe and his wife okay. So welcome to the retrospective technology. Ups wife had my sexist thing. It's possible say let's start. What sort of period are we in. Minnesota sophie toyota. And what is happening around so if you toy bells in this time. Okay i mean that's really interesting. We're in the modernist era with squarely in the teens in the twenties. And it's all happening whether it's dardar which is part of what she's into all the kind of constructivism you know. It's all happening around her. And in a funny kind of way maybe be. That's why the modernist history books passed her by because there was so much else going on so yes she was making paintings yes. She was making constructions a little bit like her husband hands up but she was also doing all these other things. Alongside whether that was textiles actual jewelry or making marionnettes. All those things. you mentioned. They weren't really happening at the same time. I mean you saw some of the dark cabaret the theater. You know the those things she created which were very much of that time that sort of it soon as chew. Business rounded shapes rounded heads the rounded marionettes that she was creating but maybe that's kind of why she moved through the slipstream without being properly recognized at the time. And you know that. That's a passage. Where her husband often she's died. Tries to kind of collect her cutler grazyna and understandably perhaps thinks okay. I'll just stick to the like the famous paintings. And the things that weren't include any of the textiles. Any of the tapestries. Any of the strange objects. She made all the cafes. She designed the sets. Because that's not what you know us. Moderniser striving towards the pure abstraction pure painting. and she. you know it's it's horizontal tail. Unfortunately what happened to women in era and it's told very well but it's a very elegant show. It's done very beautifully. It's given her proper weight. And yeah that's where we are. In the mid teens and twenties. Paris strasbourg zurich. She kind of shifted all over. I wanted amoroso if you can fill us in about what we mean by dr. We've used that in the avant-garde and modernism and things which we we probably know little about but dawda resum. I sorta sometimes get confused with the bow house. And this sort of structured idea of wicked right today. We're gonna have fun web boiler-suit slice spooky. Actually what do we mean by. Think what we mean by. Dr is specifically. It was an international movement connected via making publications and things like that. Essentially it came out of zurich and it was a rebellion. I think it came out of the factor. In switzerland. switzerland was neutral. People had a bit more freedom but still felt oppressed during the first and your first world war kind of time and so i basically they pushed against it in a way to find something joyous they wanted to make something enjoyable and find an escape think now seems to be a recurrent theme in the exhibition with side of our an escape kind of therapy to create beautiful things and it also is a reaction to international compensations like more influences coming in from across the world and stuff like that in a bringing together of all these aesthetics and kind of can i think came out over up until the sixty six embracing of nonsense this rebellion which i love and this had sort of a through line from the poetry. They'd lear in this kind of stuff playing into this structured idea of nonsense. I suppose absolutely when you think about that. In terms of a wartime situation lots of rules. Lots of restrictions. Lots of kind of no travel. All these things. It's a real kind is a real rebellion in the real rats collect. I saw that she didn't like the right word. Radical apply to it puts. You first cool skater thing to say. Oh no we're talking about nineteen twenty. I'm so she didn't like the word. Radical work will generally have bouncing movement. Dick hillis or something. I don't know why they say radical. I'm just throwing back her shoulders slightly in the. She says she's a good posture. Good posture coop. Who radicalism and zurich sophie toyed swiss artists as we said she. She was fairly She was on the move around during that time necessarily escaping war in nazi germany. And things like this but what about zurich. At the time we kind of we saw people suppress a snigger of you. Kind of get you. It was all going on you know. It was about the center of nonsense and great creativity. Spe- gasoline the cabaret voltaire was and it was sort of hall of this the heart and soul of this. What was what was it about zurich. One was at that time that was pushing out a artists of the of ilkka sophie toy bureau. I think i phone. I think it's this combination of being kind of in the middle of a war but not involved in a war and kind of oppressive situations. Then you've got the kind of wherewithal and you've kind of ge- activity to make something amazing but you can't. You're kind of alone your trunk so you just have to make something there and we can see kind of like influences of things like bright young things like the amazing costumes twenty stores. That's where it came from like. Maybe everyone wanted to rebel. They coat and it was off the back of the first war and there was all this kind of let this happen again. Let's straight systems whereby this can't happen. Supposes move a socialist outlook. This played into these things as well. There's really could show a housing worth a couple of years ago in london. Jenny yet sir. Put on it was about the spiegel gasoline about dollars and he said the switzer was so safe and sane the all the it could promote madness. Because it wasn't scared of going mad itself is that was point of his well. That's interesting because toyota's sister was actually undergoing analytical psychology with carl young in nineteen and founded zurich psychology club in one thousand nine sixteen. So the definitely were like either worried about going insane or trying to stay sane okay and then the taking the pills but the psychology club in zurich where they did latest jazz don't says and the charleston and the tango. So you know there was definitely this era of no never happens in woody allen movies no and you know it seems like Maybe it's a union thing to do to dance collectively but it. It definitely has this era of abandoned which we don't associate with zero coming but the cabaret voltaire still going strong. It wasn't a couple of years ago. Friend of ours rubbed it a quite wonderful performance. They're sort of making love to guitar on the floor. And you know these things still happen but we we associated with a different era. Obviously zurich's very sensitive safe and well mannered nowadays. But you're right. it was a rebellion. That's you know that's the the tone of of what was going on. But weirdly the th th this kind of lighthearted thing to dr you know yes it's not radical but it's something else and i wonder that that lightheartedness might have also inflicted on her work made. It seem like she was just kind of moving through these different gears. Different materials making tapestries. There was nothing really serious about it. And i think there is a problem with some dodd is. They would just kind of dismissed as being ridiculous of smoke in the wind kind of stuff. Yeah no not real kind of not like local busy or someone very serious and dedicated to that croft. It was sort of more kind of you know that roaring twenties idea of just so situation. Yeah yes. I thought what i found. Interesting was coupled with a sense of kind of mice gaiety which i felt like run through her work on this sense of dynamism of movement even through static pictures to the marionettes. F- seem to be very dynamic. Were was this kind of real study of tension and relationships like a little bit obsessed with the tension studies that she's looking at relationships between colors and between shapes and then to seeing how that seemed to evolve into things like the stained glass windows and the rooms and then the paintings. I thought that was fascinating. Seemed to be something in her. That was kind of very dedicated. Kind of specific. Yeah and i think. I think maybe that was why this kind of association with the dancing gaiety may not have done her any favors because actually these are very sort of even more than clay like very serious studies blocks of colors. Moving through into tapestries into you know applied arts but also kind of always coming back to this. Idea of geometry of sort of there is some rica. yeah through the stained glass and then eventually to these kind of circular motifs and reliefs and things amazing. So we we've talked about the the background sofi toy arps work. Let's talk about work itself and when we talk about sophie up what are we talking about. Because we said that she was multi-disciplinary but is there something that each she's best stat as it were. Is this something that she should be remembered for. Is these tensions. i mean. I'm looking here in the catalog from the exhibition. And maybe i'm just a philistine. But i was kind of like paintings. You know what i mean. There's something understandable about this and you go you making things in. Bg doing ceramics. You're doing curtains and different sorts of different things. Well sort of meat and potatoes. I'm arosa work. Is it silly to discuss her work in those and i think it's silly. I think that if i was going to really define one thing. I'd say that she was a master of colors and shapes. but that sounds really basic. Does exactly what you mean. That's what she is. And as you say making these exploring the tensions between these things yes absolutely but she just seemed to be one of these people like a real kind of like somebody could apply those skills very fluidly and easily looking at the exhibition to all these different practices like even architecture design her house. She designed the house you know they go off given this opportunity to design a hotel building and they did an fantastic. They seem to be able to her. And i think it's very clever how they didn't really mention hands. Even when they novus collaborations on certain things which was nice she was celebrated in her own right. Utopia routes husband. He will not be mentioned right but that was interesting because that house that she built was paid for by her commission so actually she was probably in some way commercially more successful. But i think because she was doing everything. It's hard to pinpoint you know where her specific skill was. Because you could look at these and say well. There's a little bit of you know. Look what breezy. And there's a bit of kandinsky. There's a bit of you know Even perry on lots of different things going on. But i think the thing running through is a modular approach approached everything it starts from a small shape or color and then it grows and has the sense in it has a force in an energy that carries through. But i think that's hard to see unless she say all in one exhibition you probably looking at her. Work does make her look like a comparison with other contemporaries or colleagues or you know the men of the time or whatever. I think that might have also been one of the reasons why she was never given this big retrospective deal. I mean is also true to say that you know these cavernous type modern space. Some of the work looks quite slight. Because we're talking about serve head size sculptures you know hand. Size watercolor talk princeton joining. So there's nothing bombastic about her work. She did work on larger scale. But not that we can really sit here and i think sometimes does take modern spaces. Do you know very masking big. They're very unforgiving. And i feel like some of the work does look a little bit dainty in in yeah space but does a lot of it you know. It was nice to see the thing rather than rather than recreating stakes could be a recreation of a stage. Set all the things that i kind of like just seeing studies in the original artifacts rather than vamping it up and making into sort of you know what i mean. I didn't want to be like a theme. Park of of her work is kind of nice to see it and and weighed in that space. Thought it was. I came out kind of with lost. I thought it was to think about not not necessarily. I didn't feel bashed over the head. Because it wasn't overwhelming. And i think just defining what i was trying to say. I seem saying. I think it's worth going digging around in the vitrine so to speak and having a look at some of the small objects. I think that's just really where you've got these kind of joyous. Little things like the handmade lace and things which i think is really was just blown away by it because it combines all these different disciplines and influences you know international national and croft an art but then it's definitely her teed that question when we talked about this sort of the kind of great voss diversity of her work. Does it mess up your reputation in the long term. I'm a raise to be so diverse. I think it can't be. But i think it's downturn documentaries of artists to stop that from happening. I've asked a question now. It's a great question. Because i feel like that seemed to be so much the spirit of the time and it seemed to also be very. It's it was a scene. It was an international seniors. Love letters and writing and publications but it was the scene. If you're involved in a scene of any kind usually so many different facets to this music performance and that's what's exciting so it's kind of like a bit unfair to be a really great protagonist in a scene and kind of be really involved and comfortable. These things go all right so you you've done too much so you can't kind of you can't take anything from it. Seems a little bit unfair. I think and i think that's just may be how people make connections time yet. People want to go. He's the guy that did this. He's the guy that i mean he's gun could guy he's he's tonight. Watch guy right. That's how people think about exactly. But then i still lots of artists nowadays. Not a few Really multidisciplinary. I think it's something that's really come back. Can i think sometimes it's of necessity like some of her Work sookie no. The big job in the hotel is say getting made them able to build a house and half p. loafer and create a kind of A place where artists could come and live and stay with them and create an. I think it's more real because in order to make things work a lot of the time you've got to do a thousand things like if you're not you're doing like i mean if you're not working in a cafe deciding building if you're lucky exactly we right is it is. It's the and there's an element of i suppose. That was a spirit of daughter is about which there were rules but there was a bit of. How much can you fling. What sticks and we see. We stay this stuff. That sticks in exhibitions like this. This is all the good stuff. Well we think about is being this. Time of unfettered expression abstraction but actually she probably felt the pressure to like match up to the big boys and make paintings and make objects that would work in that setting where she was quite happy working on a loom or working on an architectural design or on a marionette. Which people were like. Well you know you can concentrate on the minor if you must but you know you still need to produce wonderful works and so weirdly now looking back at it you can see what has style was what has sort of places but at the time it probably wasn't dot obvious because of everyone she was surrounded with an you know. Friendship is sonny delaunay there are similarities are so and you know she only just recently had that big tight survey which again you know highlights the fact that a lot of these artists and the elbows being reclaimed. They being given proper jews. But i think unfortunately she kinda got buried not least by her husband's efforts to give a catalog grazyna that didn't have all the stuff in it. That should have had but just because of the the weight of what what else was going on in. Our history got written that were exceptions. You look khabesia. Did the architecture did the modular we love but we we. We sort of people forget about the old love. Because i love the building. Yeah because he even he even he had to be especially. That wasn't his thing. Yeah it wasn't so great the pain but you know at least. We had the buildings. Yeah i i think there's definite you know for all its freewheeling nature these modernise were sort of trying to purify or trying to get to some place in. And that didn't suit her practice. Which was super freewheeling and super open and open ended just before we go to further reading quick question you both about the marionettes and the merit veteran zurich. We have the carrots is from a through comedy. Based on forty psychoanalysis. Let's be honest. How funny to think that was. I mean you. Talking switzerland it was called the stike kings dangle. Something was quite natural forms coming out of these these heads but they give me the absolute creeps these these adulterous marionettes. Yeah that's the flying. The sort of they look they look speaking. What was that sort of that sort of doctor who kind of budget robot six loans and six legs as well anyway to do. You can get Offense to think maybe in the wrong way. I kind of i like the big flying b type thing and simpson's but she was like an expert would turn on that come from no one else was doing and yet they will also like hat stand or the daughter was a powder box. Could open up a function as well. They're beautiful amazing and came out of nowhere. No one else was doing that. You know even leisure as round foams went kind of three dimensional point. So i think probably a lot of people look to practice in would just puzzled by as much as i love. That show didn't know like lots people expect didn't know much about her. Having heard her name it was really nice. It was wonderful. Kevin see something without preconceptions. I suppose as well see such a wealth of different things hard to make blockbuster but it's kind of like elegant and worth spending time. Yeah well thank you very much. Feel thoughts in insights on the sofa toyota off. And now we're gonna tend to what it made you think about an hour as we can come see. I and you wanted to talk about an exhibition. Explode daughter 'isms african roots. Yes because i was actually something completely different. I was endured for manifester in two thousand sixteen and i had to go and report on an owner kind of artists that was turning the Fecal waste of zurich into a huge sculpture as well as start polishing. There was so much of it. I do remember hearing about this and i saw this show which was celebrating the hundredth anniversary of todd centennary. And they have this show on toto africa and it was looking at the kind of correspondence between objects coming over being collected and brought into europe then influence starter and they had a lot of hand hawk collages which used images from europe from africa and they just put everything next to each other. One thing that i thought was really interesting about the exhibition was apparently they try to show it altogether at the time but people were a bit kind of it was too much for them even though you could see the similarities people like but they didn't they weren't ready to remain connection right. They found a bit kind of. It's like dardar was enough without without kind of put it all on one level which apparently they did trying to. It wasn't like a kind of pastiche of the culture which i thought was interesting but it was just really beautiful objects and looking at things like the kind of wonderful beaded necklaces. The sophie toyota are made and But next to kind of maybe masci those wonderful selling that which quite similar. What i thought was really fascinating about the show is. It wasn't kind of a take down. It was just look at what they did with it. Because it was a real combining of aesthetics with different craft techniques and it really really interesting and advise anyone to there was such a craze for kind of japan boxes and things that came out of things that were inspired by the pharaohs innings after two to found the things that will show all west african east african. whatever african art some description for people to rip off in in that day and age wonder all facts we being brought over from what was still the colony easel wonder how that came well the cost pollination that was a massive session that pseudo anthropological idea that you could study these cultures and gain some primitive knowledge. It was kind of bapti earlier. Modernist You know even andre bretagne collecting mosques and that was now i am interested to hear that it wasn't a takedown because now we look at that sort of political social day. Graphic thing they yeah very ethnographic very of of its time and actually possibly you know not really well thought out at all but it's interesting to draw a positive out of that you know to show. There was a positive engagement. Not just to kind of gays absolutely and i think this is what they were trying to say here though i think but but not completely explain away but it just wasn't it wasn't just it wasn't simply dr and it's interesting to see with the mosques it's interesting but then also kind of with sculpture and the way that it was kind of like transferred. I think the into china at one point during the exhibition you couldn't really tell the difference between the two was kind of very very similar but i never got the sense that oh god this is just like a kind of prestige show okay. So that was africa. Thank you very much indeed for shining a light on that option. You're introducing a new artist represents by listen about who we talking a name is olga morale and i thought i'd mention it because she's textile artist and makes tapestries woven art. She's from bogota colombia. She's approaching or in her ninetieth year and be making work since the sixties and very much of that area was looking at. I mean i guess it looks minimal to some degree you know. They're they're hanging wall hanging or free hanging installations and obviously. There's a sort of Relationship to what was going on time with earthworks she made these dried leaf pieces that she would Scatter these large tapestries. Scatter over over rocks and over hillsides and she made works to go and buildings. You know very much a larger scale as well as installations but it all came down to this kind of active weaving and the weaving happens. You know with like horse hair and linen and then she would almost paint over that with with jess oh so creating painted surface and then sometimes applied gold leaf. Cut them all up into strips and then to the we've them back into a big tapestry so the law of labor going on there was sort of interesting the studio practice that she kept up as an artist which was fed by making you know domestic objects in rugs and things you almost out of a of workshop has well working with lots of other women in bogota so really interesting context and yet also a bit like Safety tauber up suit of ignored a bit in her lifetime. Put into a bracket of decorative arts. I mean that's works in lots of great collections but it sort of again is only now becoming This moment where we can appreciate textile or the embroidery or the tapestry as freestanding works of art rather than kind of this minor arts obsession. That was you know throughout the twentieth century. So it's interesting. We've just started working with. I will have exhibitions coming up. There's a big touring show opening in. Houston cool to leave. Iraq has sort of retrospectives of has which opens title in ten days. Time yeah and we'll travel to cranbrook. Where she she studied in cranbrook is sort of design faculty which is very famous for that. But you know it's hard to kind of piece together similarly you know where where one fits in because she was working at the same time as the mid melissa in the land artist. But you know wasn't necessarily in the same breath as them and yet what she's created in has long legacy we hope of of you know becoming incredible objects that you can have. Some of them are very transparency. Can kind of see through them says the classic. Listen in these objects has sculptural in a way. It's a yeah. I think that's interesting also to think about where fits all program because yes it's it's not. It's not pure minimalism. You know a lot of these things that gold they're sort of lustrous this Very handmade you know. They're not difficult. Cold imposing objects in that way but certainly when that hopefully when they're installed beat for you know they'll they'll they'll manage to compete with that kind of work. You know that we that we used to so Yeah with just working with her family in columbia and trying to work out the best way to sort of show these things but hopefully the re the american retrospective will also sort of introduce her again to audiences perfect to our our new signing From listen gallery Checkout in houston and elsewhere and presumably coming up at the london space I in easthampton go to have an easthampton space in summer. Oh yeah meltzer and then in new york in november sort of like in the autumn. Or have a proper exhibition but yet sold about pop up spaces at the moment to time. We shout and that brings us to the end of today's episode of monocle. Coach my thanks to my guests arrows abrahams and osceola mode and of course my producer holly fischer the sophie toy but up. He's toivo icee tablets. The whole thing off retrospective is open at table. Now and it's on until the seventeenth. October join us next week. Moby speaking to the musicians. Laura marling and might lindsey who together from the band lump next coming out but until then for me rebound. Thanks for tuning in.

zurich sophie toyota rose abrahams toyota dardar strasbourg talbot toyota cutler grazyna amoroso dawda resum Dick hillis switzerland sophie ilkka sophie carl young zurich psychology club peggy guggenheim Liz taylor Cullens croft
What does the Philip Guston delay tell us about museums and race?

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:11:03 hr | 10 months ago

What does the Philip Guston delay tell us about museums and race?

"We cannot is sponsored by Christie's visit Christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction house in Seventeen, sixty, six auction private sales online at any time. It's the weekend. I'm Ben. Luke. This Week Philip Guston scandal. What does the postponement of a big show of the American artists work tell us about museums, response art, and race in the wake of black lives matter. Took to the critics and curators berry swap ski and enjoy Emma Life about four year postponement of Philip Guston now at the National Gallery of Art Washington the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston and Boston, and at tate modern in London in a moment. Also, this week Louisa Buck Meets Maggie handling as a new show for work opens at Marlborough Gallery in London and work of the week. He's back after a short break. The artist Martha Tuttle talks about a medieval visitation in the Metropolitan Museum of art in new. York Before that, the aren't newspapers lost in new three part online live event series could new models for new times rethinking the art market in a changing world, the third and final event in the series featuring conversation between the economists, Clare mcandrew, and the art newspaper editor at large Georgina Adam on the future of the art market is on the twenty second of October. You can register for this and other online events at the art newspaper, Dot com slash live. Now. Three weeks ago it was announced that the long-planned survey of Philip. Guston's work at the National Gallery of art in Washington tate modern in London and the museums of finance in Boston and Houston is being postponed as a response to the emergence of the quote racial movement that started in the US radiated two countries around the world the show which was due to feature numerous paintings by Guston with hooded figures of opening the ku-klux-klan would be delayed. The museum stated quote until a time when we. Think that the powerful message of Social Racial Justice at the center of Philip Guston's work can be more clearly interpreted. The decision met with the tide of criticism and outrage, not least from tate modern curators, Godfrey and from Guston's daughter and the president of the Guston Foundation Mussa Meyer. Later, a letter protesting the decision signed by more than one hundred leading art world figures including gallagher is Julian Julia Moretto. Adrian Piper Pope L. Martin Dear Henry Taylor McLean Thomas among many others was published in the Brooklyn Rail. I spoke to the author of that letter, the critic and Curator Berry Schwab. Ski and to another critic and Curator Andrea Emma Life you criticize the museum's decision in the Guardian newspaper. Barry before we start talking about the museum statements and what's happened Can We? Set in stone the work was that we're talking about because there were two phases aren't man. Well it's interesting that you want to start out by talking about what the work is that. Involved because. That's. I have to say precisely that thing that's not specified in the original announcement from the National Gallery in Washington where they say we're postponing the exhibition until the time at which we think that the powerful message of social and Racial Justice is at the center of Philip Guston's work can be more clearly interpreted will what is what is that message and what what makes them think? It needs more precise interpretation. They don't mention anywhere what that is and I think that already is kind of strange a clue to. Our they the the management of the National Gallery is being about this. Whole situation but of course, what we all are aware of his the fact that a two points in his career very early on when he was a teenager and then later on in the nineteen sixties Guston dealt with imagery that included a could it Ku Klux Klan segment. And when he was doing that as a young man, he was doing it as a leftist. Activists I'm not sure he was exactly a communist were something in the area of that but you know he was doing this propaganda station are to show people the horrors of white racism? And not only of white racism but also the Anti Semitism that he himself had lived experienced. He went through a long journey as an artist that took him from from that kind of work that he was doing I say when he was a teenager to more symbolically and metaphorically freighted figurative. Painting and then like many of his generation of a very difficult of. Conversion I think I have to use almost that kind of religious terminology. To abstraction, and he became well known as one of the abstract expressionist friends with the Kooning and pollock and all the rest and practice that with great skill in depth for for many. But then at a certain point. A in the. Late nineteen sixties. He became uneasy with the said I'm tired of all this purity he had to find another. Thing to do with his our end of as I, say with great kind of soul searching and an internal struggle he. Invented, a new kind of figurative painting for himself, which is much and Arar and cruder and more visceral than. The things he had done as young Ma'am and. Part of the imagery. Initially of those were these these hooded klansmen. Now, he's looking at them from a different viewpoint. He compared himself to one of his favorite writers Isaq by Bell who had who is like likewise Jewish and who had gone and lived with and wrote about the the Cossacks who were extremely of antisemitic and he kinda thought well, if Abell could put himself. Among these Cossacks were the. Opposite of him and yet find what he had in common with them. I should be able to imagine myself inside the hood. What if I'm the bad guy so now was again in in tune with everything that was going on in the sixties that he was very aware of and very involved in. It was a protest but it was a different kind of protest. It was also a protested that was self examination and a need to examine his own guilt or sense of guilt. That's something that you pick up on a new Oscar Andrey net e you know it's about. This desire to understand evil to get in the head of the white supremacist. So can you say something about about your response in that sense? So. When not came across? The decision to cancel Kosten I instantly thought about what Cousins paintings mean to the current climate he was fascinated to paint that developed a unique style of abstract expressionism. But what I think is important to realize is that although we're talking primarily about the Paintings that is quite a small part of his practice he started with his representations. In allow scale I go from the Thirtieth Ruben dish struggle against terrorism which depicted Nazi and Ku Klux Klan violent and I, think that we think we realized that he has been doing the sympathize and this is prompted by violence and civil unrest in the late sixties and his of compulsion to tell the story of in America I think that. Telling, the story of Boston as a whole that including, what is his motives and discussions and ideas as to what it likes to live in America as a Jewish man and so resonating with the. Closest to bear that black people and people from. Different minorities have had to deal with in America in again in a wide debate and it felt confusing to hear that this isn't the suit of all we should be seeing right now. I didn't walk. He think Barry you agree. Yeah I'm totally agreement and I was really of Sir taken aback by Darren Walkers statement to the New York Times down is the director of the Ford Foundation in the state and he's one of the trustees of the National Gallery of art and seemingly. One of the main proponents of this move to supposedly postponed. The. In Show said in the past few months, the context in the US has fundamentally profoundly changed on issues of incendiary toxic racist imagery in our regardless of their virtue or intention of the artist who created it. So he is in a very strange way aligning the difference between. Racist Imagery and depictions are. People who are racist you know he makes it sound as though the the image itself has some kind of fundamental as it were persona that is harmful to others. No matter what anyone says. Gusting in those images showing the now mundanity of white supremacy really a comic. Humor and I guess people get the difficulty in purging the subject with the visual of cartoon and comic because it might be seen as making light of it by think what he's trying to do is show the the now the mundanity of believing this and believing in racism more propagating hate and shoving sort of poking fun and. Yeah I just. I remember that I think we should remember that in the midst of the warned that power and civil rights movement Guston's cost was making work then and it was criticized then the so wondering whether it will be criticized will not criticize in two, hundred, twenty, four interesting question and what we were we hoping for in the next four years I, mean obviously hoping for progression. But I wonder whether it is something that we can treaty holds that museum in that we as this would've as artsy people can hold ourselves to that it will be a better time to discuss this in two thousand and twenty of our hope. So but I wanted to what is expected change those four years. One of the things I'm interested in is on the museums and we feel from win Feldman Statement to for instance she she went onto the hyper allergic podcast and spoke at length about this issue and it seems that the National Gallery is the most important museum in terms of the decision making here. One of the things that strikes me is to what extent they preempting the response of their audience because I don't know how widely they have consulted their audiences about this to take. For example, in the catalog, there are two pieces written by African American artists, Trenton, door Hancock, and Glenn Ligon which deal explicitly with the clan imagery, and it seems to me in in doing that the museums were very conscious that they wanted to get. Black voices involved in the planning of this exhibition and the interpretation of this exhibition. So you can answer this, Andrea. To what extent do you feel that this is a sort of patronizing attitude from the museums to the audience he's into their black audiences. I think it's important to remember that I believe that the coup guts images may cut maybe two rooms out of twelve, and so I think a lot of people are looking at us read the headlines and they'll think this is a show of. These images when actually it's man's his abstract works, many others in between and so I'm worried that the discussion has gone so far. It's focusing early on these narratives and not on the entire picture whilst we're asking if the curator's have done the work pertaining to that issue, the is to do the work pretending to all issues obviously need the ratio plans will trump, but we need to ensure that curator's are dealing with everything sensitively reading gun conflict taxed it's very much in. In Solidarity with. Constant work is that they are. Think, he's the word. Woke. And so whilst I think that Glenn Ligon and the other artists reading the open letter, their responses on potent because it shows, it's not offensive to them that we also need to make sure that we. Make. That their responses mean that it's a K- in the same way as me as a young black female writer. And one the only black voices two written about the topic because I think it's a terrible shame that the show isn't going to happen. I think it's also important to note that just because I of that person disagree with the considation I constantly every black person living in America that would that would see the show and whilst I believe really that the response Mike of incited protests very much should I also believe that encouraging controversial debates important to the power of our other thing anyone passing can speak in terms of how it would be received? I think it's dangerous to preempt. A reaction without doing public consultation and the Constitution was deputy indication. But kind anyone really preempt the response it would have had in the public not really I think nothing has been Preempted or been able to be preempted this year in at the whole say, be curious as to see how could preempt a response from the large group of people in many different cities and regions of the world. Barry you in your in the letter that you drafted the Andrea just referred to for the Brooklyn Rail in which was signed by the many artists. You Reference Musa mayor who gust daughter and president the Guston Foundation and and and she addressed that. These are difficult images. They are not fixed the imagery itself is difficult, and it's precisely that the Guston is aiming for is these are not images that you can neatly encapsulate and sum up very easily. They want to prompt you to think and to think about difficult stuff. I think first of all, he was not an artist who was there in his mature years to preach to anyone tell anyone want what to think he was there in the first place to disturb him so. And if they disturbed the rest of us, it's because he was dealing. With, things that he found very difficult to digest on his own terms of so naturally, it's not something that's that easy to kind of put a caption on that will tell any curious passer-by. Well, what should I think about this? How should I take that? You know it's something more full of ambivalence. Indeed. You organize the letter and can you tell me something about that process because you drafted it but did you get the contributions of artists to it? Well I started to write the letter I mean let's say that it was my response when I read The New York Times article reporting on this. postponed was so visceral and emotional and I just had to I, kind of try to tamp it down for but then. After Day realized there was nothing that I could do. But at least right something that said what I thought about it, and I started to write it and then I sent it around to a few friends. But it was a very personal statement and are very angry one emotional one. And A as I began to get some reactions to it. I realized that it was something that maybe I should rethink in that. It could be something that wasn't just from me but that would be something that many people could. Sign onto and support, but as was circulating it a one person. Wrote back and said essentially, well I basically agree with what you say but there's some problems with this letter and. I think you can. Southam by making these rewrites that I'm GonNa send you when I read the proposed edits the letter which came from the artist Adrian. Piper they were all completely brilliant and spot on and made the whole thing country percent clearer and stronger and Better Andhra. One of the commentaries about this subject has been that you've referred to it yourself that you are one of the few commentators who has written a piece that that is black that the the very many of the commentators on this have been white voices often white male voices. So. One of the aspects, the director of National Gallery of artists said. Needed to change in the forthcoming show was that it should be done by non white curator's as well as white curator's this exhibition. This present exhibition was curated by four white curator's. Do you think that the territory it has been overly occupied? If you like by white voices when you wrote about it, you agreed with many of the points that those voices were making in terms of the necessity for this show to go ahead. So. Yes. I, am one of the any I think will all the black voice of commodities publicly in the written press about the decision to cancel and also against the cancellation. As voting to the different artists, you are back as well and we before the article. I was musing on whether I should insert myself into the band and I four actually added duty to do so because there was a call for another perspective because it was it became. Penn station by by curator's or by the end by directors who away a gun show that was that might be a white audience that he's doing appropriating imagery that I agree that is appreciation of imagery that too I think is important to note. The older creators of the show are Jewish. Whether or not? That means that they. White, in the same sense, as I think the consensus to walk me think let me think of a wild curators I think is important in general. While it is occupied by white male voices by think, is important to understand the nuance of. And yes, there will does the Caucasian and then there's also White passing the People that have dealt with antisemitism or isolation or just otherness in a different way I think it's important to make sure that people are whether the curator's are white that they whole Jewish and as Guston was and I think it's and I just think it's an important new to address. Do I think that there should be a black curator I do Do I think that the show wasn't contextualized without curator at can't tell that does haven't seen the trip I've read the council and it does seem that the work has been done. Do I think it will benefit from about curator? Yes. The I still agree that the show would have addressed these issues well and is important in a time. Where we're going to allied ship I also think there's an immense pressure by putting all of the royal decisions of of of exhibition, Stewart raise on curator's only there's been discussions as to David's Glenn as. Black Space and should not that's not the exact title gathering that have all black staff with all black director royalty and whether that's the answer and the answer either but I do think that it will gain to have trade that circulate around rates I divers critter Oriel. Team is is obviously going to be a good thing in short the additional Blackie reiter with will be a great thing. But, it'll be an entirely different show and I. Think what we've realized is that, yes, it is. If the show does happen to for, it will be a different show. It'll have curator's obviously has to definitely have to have different loans. Different. Checklist and it will be completely different under the time we're because every I think there's he has proven to us that history is fast forwarding conversations are going faster and so. Will doesn't begin to twenty four. No, the will we be more Equipped to handle, issues about race. I hope so but I still believe that should cause a I think a bit of a double censorship and approaching this share and you mentioned something to do with them it may be patronizing view is. I think it's not patronizing to block views I think it's patronizing to viewers in general that they can't see a nuance inbetween painting, KKK image and understanding. The difference between someone who paints it in a way spooking fun and sharing the ridiculousness and evil and making false. Straight in front good forcing it into seeing it and just seeing as racism. It's always kind of easy for people who are bosses to to require something else from the people who work for them. But what about the people who are the boss of aren't we talking about why aren't there any black museum directors among these instead of instead of the you know advocating that she'd like to hire a black curator to to add on somehow to this. Show just as Gust and looked at himself maybe when Feldman and the other directors have to look at themselves and. Not, just at the the people who are below them I. think that's one of the things that. I have found troubling about this is the museum's didn't feel equipped right now to address this issue to say okay, we've been planning Augusta show. It's taken five years, but the situation has changed I. Think we all agree it is. Unequivocal the situation has changed. There is no one would dispute that but is a bit disturbing. The four museums didn't feel that they had the staff that could put together events, programs, discussions seminars even changed interpretation in the museum within relatively short amount of time to reflect those change circumstances. Doesn't it show a lack of confidence? In the museum's own staff that curatorial educational stuff food. Very brilliant, very connected to very diverse communities. I agree I mean I can speak to the curator's I. Know I mean good free. He creates the nation it so. That thousand incredible show and I find I would be surprised if someone that can curate as show as nuance and powerful, the nation couldn't handle the work of Guston especially of the five years also the the representation of black curator's. Hasn't come up in the five years only now that often this what is the quotes action for representation of that? We now, addressing the fact that they should have been the black returns show and if that's something that is a concern, it would have been concerned ideas. There's only a few curator's in the UK I mean there's a very small pool. Of which I I travel between curator and writer, and so I've experienced and seen the the DACA representation in both fields but that should have been something that should have been addressed by. The conversation hasn't changed so much other than now we're waking up to the fact that curator's should have dating museum and obviously should be creating shows like this show. did they not realize that that is needed to curate? An and intrigued thing to add is that in a sense, it's it's a statement that proves itself because with their their announcement on the National Gallery website and then the interviews that came in Feldman is given they sort of shown themselves to be poor communicators and to be kind of break in their statements even though the if you look at the catalogue for the exhibition, the curator seemed to be very thoughtful and very forthright and. Are Serious about investigating all the issues that that Guston's work brings up. So there's there's already a lot of material they are for their. Their, educational staff to work with and so on and you wrote a manifesto for how? The world should respond to black lives matter could you not argue the the museums were doing here was an attempt to do this. I think it definitely wasn't attempt and I understand the motivations towards I. Guess It's been a very emotional year for everybody and museums taken a lot of flack have been forced to inwards into the structures into programming into the staff The intentions were good in that I guess they didn't want to make pops wreck, run the risk of causing any more pain with viewership while I. Think they've missed the mark is that they sauce for the dust into an age of double censorship from the left as was the right? So by postponing to show the spend the conversations about the outlook including those about whether white onset, the right to take raises a mess their subject. Because the statement has caused a lot of debate including this one. It means that we are addressing and confining ideas to who has the right to discuss racial issues and issues that haven't affected them directly. And I heard that those conversations continue. But in general when I wrote mission statement about how the art welcome step up the black lives matter I think what I wanted was for museums to take risks and present material that encourages misfortune debate and society. And so even though on the surface Guston as a white artist whose paintings KKK images may seen as something that should be talked and we address later in fact, it's probably one of the more urgent questions and an outlook that we should be seeing today because it's pushing forward the debate and we shouldn't be afraid of questions early not asking them. Because we're not getting the chance to interrogate this with Guston's in this exhibition, which you know it was going to be groundbreaking large-scale retrospectives that shared many aspects including this. I fear that these questions in this debate won't be really addressed in feature exhibitions to combat. I. Really Hope that this isn't a trend that continues. Every person and every block experience unblock American and so I haven't. been forced to experience the threat of the. Clan history as much as my American counterparts would have but I do think in order to push for the racial debates we need some uncomfortable things and art I think shouldn't be polite and it shouldn't. Force us to look inwards and that's what gus does. Berry, I'm sure you agree with everything that. Your say, but I also want to reflect on the effect of the letter that you that you drafted, and if we have this critical mass of artists who have said, what they have said and demanded that the museums reinstate the show. These a powerful people in the world can. Can you perceive that they've had any effect on the museums? The, first of all I think you have to reflect that big institutions and the people who work in them are concerned most of all with the. Safety of the institutions enough their. Positions within them and. That kind of. Potential, for controversy and for difficult conversations may appear to be threatening to to that security, and this is one of the problems that we have in. DEALING WITH WITH With museums and other similar institutions. I think the fact that. With some of the most renowned artists in the world artists to. Who really whose names are kind of by word for integrity and for? Devotion to. To the practice of are having. Signed onto this letter the fact that the. Museums won't directly respond to them is really. A terrible sign of how little the artists and therefore the are. Actually figures in their calculations about what they're going to do and what they're not going to do that said. I, think that the. May Have had more effect than it seems in the interview that. A caitlyn Feldman gave to. Aren't net she kind of Said Oh. Well, we just took that day twenty, twenty, four kind of randomly out of a hat it does it may it may be doesn't really need to take. So long we're we're we're working now on really figuring out what the what the actual schedule will be, and I'm really hoping that it can be sooner than that. So. You know I think that they'll be with some kind of face-saving rhetoric I think there'll be some backpedaling at least on. The idea that this is really going to be so bad for for the museums to be to show aren't like this I think they're going to. Step away from from that idea. And just to add in hearing about. The hopes to put too fast forward, the president get the Guston show going again. Amina clearly be thrilled with his I mean the whole point of me writing the piece was because I concern, I want the web to shine. I. Hope that. Whatever relations that the AD and or sort of seek other perspectives that they seek positively impact the show and that it's not just the removal of the KKK images I just think that it's important to see them and. The. The the reiteration of the Gossen. Sure. The sooner can be seen the better. So it's happening tiny tiny that Canadia get thing I. Let's keep office cost. Andrea and Barry. Thank you both very much to. Enormously, complex issue. You can read Andrea Mls. lasko on Guston at the Guardian Dot Com I'm a letter signed by the artists at Brooklyn Rail Dot Org, and do so listen to my interview for this podcast with Rob Stool the author of a new book on Guston you can find that conversation in the episode with Grayson Perry which came out on the eighteenth of September. Buck interviews Maggie handling in a moment, but first here a few of the top stories on the newspaper's website. The first details of the COVID nineteen rescue grants to museums, art galleries in England or announced this week as Garish Paris writes Arts Council. England aboard two hundred and fifty seven million pounds in long-awaited grown to one, thousand, three, hundred, eighty, five museums, theaters, and other cultural stations across England as part of the government's one point five, seven, billion, pound cultural cover refund. Substantial grants included five hundred, thirty, four, thousand pounds to the White Chapel Gallery more than six hundred and fifty thousand pounds to the Delaware? Pavilion. Impacts Hill. Two hundred twenty thousand pounds to the not in contemporary and seven hundred eight thousand nine thousand pounds to the Institute of Contemporary. Arts in London which has yet to reopen. The autism only represent the United States at the Venice Biennale in twenty twenty two making her the first black woman to secure this prestigious commission. League was selected by the US Department of State Bureau of Educational and cultural. And Her, presentation is organized by curator at the Pasta. He can read an interview with some only from last year at the art newspaper Dot Com. And finally a seven coach of Medusa tons the ancient Greek myth depicting the Gorgan as an avenging victim of sexual assault. The head of Perseus was unveiled in New York on Tuesday across the street from the Manhattan Supreme Court were abuses such as Harvey Weinstein of stood trial that cheap by the Argentine Italian. Out this new John Batty was originally created in two thousand, eight gain widespread attention on social media in the wake of the Metoo. You can reduce these stories and much more of the newspaper Dot Com or not at West which you can get from the APP store. will be back after this. We out is sponsored by Christie's this October Christie's London Christie's Paris Join Forces to present twentieth century London to Paris New Sale series celebrating the best in impressionist modern post war and contemporary art and design experience. Christie's new hybrid style livestream auctions and explore masterpiece by Nikon's including Francis Bacon Peter. David me. PSU Lodge. Key Pablo Picasso and more. Christie's will offer Marina Abramovich, the life, the first mixed reality art work, and the only work of its kind to be presented auction. Christie's auctioneers will be taking bids in consecutive sessions on the twenty second of Tober, starting with Paris avant. Garde followed by the Post War and contemporary art evening sale in London and thinking Italian and design. Series concludes with day sales in both cities on the twenty third of up to. Two great cities. Six admissible actions discover the season's top works and more information on Christie's DOT com. Welcome back before we hear from Maggie humbling don't forget to catch up with the newspapers other podcast a brush with featuring in depth artist interviews do subscribe to hear new episodes in the coming weeks. You can do that at Apple podcasts, spotify Amazon or wherever you're listening now. Now the Athletes Maggie humbling has an exhibition at the Marlborough Gallery in London coming citing with seventy fifth birthday should also soon a public sculpture commemorating Mary wollstonecraft in East London and is the subject of a forthcoming BBC film. The newspapers contemporary art correspondent Louisa Buck, went to Marlborough to meet her. Then Maggie we have several room fools of amazing works covering a multiple different. But I want to home in first of all on one of the first ones you see when you walk in which is called caged and it's a great big black. But grounded cage full of birds trying to burst out and that was made before lockdown. But how was your lockdown was that a premonition of how things were going to be or did you find lockdown? She rather relief slowly works were made during lockdown as well. Where it's interesting had birds Louisa because? At the beginning of that painting, there was three birds. Traffic. Is that cage and then I distilled it distilled agent in it's actually one bird tried to get out of the cage and and it didn't occur to me until. Someone sent to me. It's very strange that last year. You painted that painting, and now we're all in our cages so. Of course. It was painted a year before but. My Different George many who is it artists seemed to know things before they happen and for Tele Future. And then not that I need lottery numbers or anything useful. But that cage painting certainly happened before the current situation of all our conditions of being caged and how was it for you being caged? What of course As my habit is get very early in the morning five or six and go straight into the studio. I'm very lucky in that I just carried on doing what I do every day anyway, what I began to miss a course was on. Hugging close friends. Cow Quite a physical person that was the head of it. and the self-portrait angry in the big gallery. One done says, that was the first painting I did. Once looked odd happened because. Anga was my first response. Let of his best be sharing something in New York oldies, plans things that everybody has you know suddenly were in the soup I mean gone disappeared I mean nothing that you salt was going to happen was clearly gonNA happen. And I first reaction was of fury. And that. Awesome Quite Dur works. I mean bad days almost completely abstract lump of gray with a cigarette stock into it, and then quite a lot of the self-portraits you've done seen during lockdown during twenty twenty. This year seemed to be very turbulent in their paint. I mean, the earliest self-portrait from the year before the paint seems to vanish has been white spaces in I don't associate we tool, but then come lockdown the paintings come flooding back again. Sometimes. It's thick and. Thin. I've I been. My whole. Feeling about oil paint is live sexy stuff on I'm still discovering things that it can do. Is. See. The subject in my case I mean life dictates what I paint. And says the subject is. Like my lover. And I'm making love with this sexy stuff. It's a very intimate intimate thing and as I say I didn't think the paintings could have been done in any other medium. and. I've tried to. The koneohe saying of less is more in many of these self newsouth portrait's. Do to try to be eloquent with far less paint. than. An often before but then occasionally painting like the hot afternoon cemetery that sex de spades zinc the almost like tangles skulls yet well, skulls and other things going on. But that suddenly demanded pain to know and? I, remember. Doing talk somewhere and somebody asked me but the texture, jut. It by paintings and I got really angry what do you mean texture texture belongs to silk or velvet or whatever it is oh for texture layers of failure when some paintings happened very quickly when the muses with me and other pages can go on for months or even years but I think the essential thing is to however long paintings taken to do to bring it into that one moment. Of the painting I mean I didn't like paintings look say they should be winning the Duke of Edinburgh Award for Diligence. They If they can have life to the May have to come together into one moment regardless of how long they've taken to make. You've have been lately de Skilling yourself a bit you see in the in the BBC programme which I've had a sneaky preview of which is coming out later on this month, which is very appropriately cooled making love with the paint. So. You've got the sense of this love affair with paint is very much evidence route that. But every morning you make a drawing and you'd be making it in your left hand was that. Well ought to roll is yes and I. I I've. Art, began for me when I was fourteen and as you probably know by be seventy, five look at congratulations. That's the right comment Louisa. you know Louisiana's the right hand is so full of tricks and so this working for a couple of years. Now, every morning with ink in a sketchbook first thing, I do to renew the sense of touch The left hand can produce some expected things the which is. Good because I mean everything. The word experiment is is highly overused but to me everything with A. Drawing on a piece of paper, the size of a postcard or whether it's as seven by nine foot canvas I mean every single thing has to be an experiment otherwise. It has led to cabinet and mannerism, and and all the rest of it. All my works about feeling and h subject demands it Satan. Said mocks if you like. 'cause you've said the works in charge of me. I'm not in charge of it. What what do you mean by that? Because it's you making the work there you are with you're brushing your hand over your left hand right hand withdrawing what you mean by this did you go into a kind of Chauncey state when you're painting what is? Early, morning drawings which are. Very, important to me quite often ideas on with my eyes shut. And as I say, it's like Penn is urging the scales renewed sense of touch every morning and. I do believes the thing that the subject must be in charge of the artist, not the other way round and a subject chooses you that was said to me by my first art teachers school. The subject chooses the artist not the artist's choosing the subject. The subject is in charge and it has been my. My daily life in the studio. I live in state of permanent doubt. You don't need not to Overdo it and play violins but I Doubt, the whole time and then. On the. The marvelous moment of the arrival of the news I believe in all that when I've sufficiently emptied myself for the subject to come through me into the piece of work, and then the piece of what paints itself and as the great moments but I mean I. I, could have gone through pure hell. Before that happening. There are of portraits in this show is not a form of self scrutiny for you. Is it because you're the nearest model to hand? How does that play out I mean life really does. Dictate what I make. I mean for instance of painting Gulf. Women. Prepare for war, which is in the new collection in Cambridge. The shock. In the eighties of this photograph in the papers black and white photograph of these women in to me at that time seemingly biblical dress practicing using rocket launchers in the middle of the desert, it was such such a shocking. Visual things that I have to respond and make a piece of work about it and then as soon if somebody dies someday I love very much. Go and painting them for a year or two after they've died. So say when if somebody ever says, well, what will you be painting? Would it be painting animals or something in six months I had. Not. Really up to me it's whatever gets me by the short and curly's forces me to do something about it in my work and I think a piece of work. Any move someone else in as much as the artist has been moved by the subject there is a room full of extraordinary paintings of animals. But animals and abject state rhinoceros without its horn elephants that their tasks. A terrifying dancing bear I mean, where did these animals come from? I? Haven't seen. You paint animals in such quantity before since you paint a bull's Liz years ago you went on safari didn't use some time ago. Is that what triggered it? Would it may have triggered it may have triggered it. I was I. Think now that the beginning of my sculpture skull upon suffer beach. On. All beach in Suffolk. Probably began when the age of seven. I was on over beach pushing the fireworks for the coronation in this is explosions in the sky and in the sea and all around fantastically citing so that. That is probably began. Then you really see these things much after these animals seem to be triggered by a situation. That's the polar bear. There's that tragic thick black painting with the animal shape in the Senechal last animal there's. A painting called the last per boone. The animals that you paint have been mutilated have been killed by poachers I mean this is these. Poignant savage tragic paintings but it actually follow on from my show for the ice caps melting. I mean the way that we are completely fucking up the world. Is something that I. I'm appalled by. and. So these animals naturally on and. Indeed. It was a long while ago twelve fifteen years ago that I went on safari much against my will and then found that I loved it very much. Each morning Eddie in the jeep had my sketchbook journey, the animals, and then again in the evening and then. Why they suddenly last year decided to be painted I really deny it. The last booms the first of them then the. It moved on through the elephant, large task, the Rhinoceros but this is what we're doing. This is what we're doing in just. fucking. Help Antarctica. Praised in a way that I will never have grandchildren and their grandchildren. What will they be left? For. Those children to see. And that that's that's more painting the last animals. It, it could be a dog could be done, could be many kinds doesn't matter I mean that that painting the last animal is when everything has gone, we've fucked up the entire world and all its animals and probably people. And you bringing back quite a few people in the show I mean I'm thinking of the paintings particular author let hands who is important figuring Oh life hadn't appeared for awhile and becky comes tell us about who he was and what he meant to come back. Well. Offer let Hans Yes the artist. Who lived with. The artists. Cedric Morris. They together ran the stangeland sculpture painting and drawing where Freud started bedlam in many years before me, the his house was on edge of Hadley in Suffolk where I grew up and I wa I two oil paintings under my arm cedric. My parents needed some sort of encouragement and let became my mentor and he's the person who set the most important thing. Anyone's ever said to me, which is you must make data fifteen. It was such a privilege to be told you must make your work best friend in other words you can go to it forever. Feel you know you're tired? You're sad you're happy you're randy whatever you're feeling go to your work and have a conversation with it, and that's I've led my life. And this sort of. Thing. which may sound odd but which is true is that in the studio when I'm trying to make something that's what is to me real life and whatever happens outside the studio more Chirad Unit. then. Let's face seems to be part of coming out of the paint. In a room that is really quite extraordinary. Old voted to the laugh to laughing heads but these are this is not. Merry Johnny, La to my mind. This is laughter on the edge of hysteria these faces on the edge of disintegration skull like these great gaping mouths whether these laughs come from Maggie role. In the ninety S, you may remember a trying to paint the LAWF-. The son of the love in the ninety s when everything was doom and gloom and Mrs that trump there are people who dead love I personally try not spend too much time with him but. I mean the most disastrous sings you could think of pretty damn quickly somebody made jake with Niger. I didn't know how else one go on living without laughing. There's also a wild says. If you if you think life is a comedy, but if you feel life is a tragedy. And that couldn't be true and said, the laughing is very very. Important to me and that and the challenge as the challenge of painting the animals was not be sentimental which I didn't think I have been. Thank goodness. But the challenge of painting laugh is obviously the moment the mouth is open. Can could be a scream could be aurora yell or something, and obviously laughing and crying say close together they're almost like life and death and they. Say. Very close and I'm still hope out of these more figurative paintings than the nineties paintings I still trying to paint the sound of laughter coming out of there's. Out of the House of these heads. Still, you say more figurative than the abstract painter the nine year, right? Yes. That they were just conjuring up of gesture Nkala color but nonetheless, a lot of these words in this show. Push towards the edge abstraction, some of the portrait's. Yes. You out just but if there's a title I can see it's you that coalescence, but it then evaporates again I mean it seems that with a lot of the works more recent works you how poor trolling these edges of pushing paint to it's painting as it were pushed pushing into the edges of figuration I eat word abstract and abstraction, but nonetheless, you're always walking that. My budget seems yeah. But I think the minute you pick up a brush or knife or you'll hand on every the happen to put the paint on the canvas whiz you you if you're not walking that. Tight for I. Prefer not on the edge of something. The thing is not going to have any life trade and. And as I get older, I have taken on board the it less is more, and so I'm trying I always have been trying to get to the essence of the subject, but it's it is happening in a more lot of these paintings in the more economic way and you recently accepted a commission to another public sculpture. You mentioned the skull shown Aubrey also made the Memorial Oscar. Wilde annihilating Mary wollstonecraft the Great. Advocate for equality, the sexiest the vindication, the rights of women, the first great book about equality of between men and women a great philosopher. Mother of Mary Shelley. How did this come about and what you're going to be how you're going to be portraying Or have to wait I think until. Believe something like the tenth of November, there was a clue to see what I've got names absolutely until the ten sort of them but. It has to be unspoken off. So what were you thinking about when you making the world? Media. The usual typed L.. Time older I read I think wanted to people asked to take. Me and you'll have to wait and see. Maybe. And there she is in Newington green will be will be So the public sculptures, a whole of a strain of what you do and your paintings and sculpture often do seem to overlap you make colored sculpture, paint the sculptures they have that very strong kind of animated quality to them. Do you see them as very distinct processes to? Make. Happy. Now, spread I prefer painting sculpture, which is rather city question not by you But other people have said we were the factors. It's whatever I'm doing at the time you know and I mean sculpture really came back. Into my work in the in the nineties daring making those loft paintings. when I realized I was more and more painting an object. In space object floating around in some kind of space whatever color and I it had been a bit slow going from suffocate w while to realize I probably should be making objects in which something I hadn't done since Ipswich all screwed in this in the sixties and say, sometimes sculpture has led to a painting or painting us led to a sculpture but in fact, whatever, what is it ever in my hands at the tight? So we're not going to see a Mary Wilson Croft series of paintings or maybe we are. Not a Fortune Teller Louisa. However, you have become was adjunct to a fashion designer you've. got a whole range of amazing clothes brought out by all school designers of using your brushstrokes on jackets using artist's smock inspired the senior smoke, his drought or to smoke and SPA addresses. But how does that feel to have you have your great gesture brushstrokes on? Is quite extraordinary. This young fashion has called school approached me. And said, they would like to make these some. Close. With somehow my. Paintings on them and the wolves of water paintings. The they are amazing. They are most beautiful silk at incredibly beautifully made and. Felt that that is very exciting and then. And then I didn't quite realize at the time that I was going to have to put these governments on and kind of. Well and other buffet to Grafton them. Admittedly by gagging Taylor I wasn't going up and down the catwalk. But that part of it was quite funny when you look at by stature small and squat I, the opposite of any kind of fashion model we used to think he of you. But is will be fun and the the the jackets the case I think and also says things. I'm quite amazing said very beautifully made. You think. I'm waiting for Chanel up in a few people. Sort of. Next week you miraculously turn seventy, five I quite unlikely. I can't believe you reach that advanced age on. What advice would you give to young Maggie setting out? Now, with the benefit of a few decades. Make my first shot London Nineteen Seventy-three Moly Gary Morris College Someone Jeffrey Solomon's who was director Fisher fight not a very big grand gallery at the time. Came up to the private view and stood with me in front of a large painting of let actually let Hanes sitting in a chair and that was a baby artists my first show. And he said if Jimmy Trenches these, we'll give you a show we're not. A lot of FEHB Yeltsi's would have trotted are trendy is an had a show. I said, why would I want to twenty th these? New. I mean less than cedric who hated ought to fill liberal crooks shits the that thing of being independent ones as spirit and. Listen to the inner voice rows of never being told what to do not something I'm very good at. As incredibly important and say you see I can see how a young again artists can have a huge success perhaps a degree show if we're ever allowed to have anything like this again, in the the huge success for degree show be snapped up by gallery and then just fulst if the painting happens to be milk bottles to carry on painting milk bottles for the rest of their lives because they sell. Well, I'm afraid on the opposite of that. Now, I have to as I say, life dictates what I make in my work and I come tell. What will happen? Next. Satellite. Didn't that you need to be giving advice up young Maggie or indeed is all mature Maggie? Thank you very much. Maggie Handling Twenty twenty is Marlboro in London until the twenty first of November the film making love with the paint is on BBC Two on twenty four th of October at nine PM and on BBC. Now, for this episodes work of the week, the artist mother tuttle current has an exhibition at the storm, King Art, center in New Windsor New York, and she's chosen to talk about a medieval sculpture of the visitation in the metropolitan. Museum of art in New. York she spoke to senior editor in new. York Margaret Carrigan about the work. You can see an image of the sculpture at the newspaper Dot Com. Go to the PODCAST TAB and look this episode. MARTHA YOU'VE CHOSEN A. Early Fourteenth Century sculpture called the visitation by Master Heinrich of constance. It's a really beautiful little piece two women standing representing. The Virgin Mary and her cousin Elizabeth they're both pregnant and they're you know shooting the shit about what it means to be pregnant I assume. And you know Mary's got the news that hers is divine. So I I wondered when you first saw this this work and what struck you about it. Then in general, do you find yourself attracted to meet medieval works or is this one particularly interesting for you? I mean I love medieval works because of their use of materiality and because materials hold so much symbolic resonance, I think medieval works but this work I think especially strikes me because of its. Relationship to the feminine and a kind of female tenderness. I don't remember ever not knowing about it, which I think with works that mean the most it's either way either there's like one moment that you were like Oh that came into my life and it was so significant or that just feels like it was always there like maybe you knew it and many lifetimes I. Think this one is the latter. I probably saw it when I was a child and then it's just become a kind of constant presence at in artworks that mean the most to me. There is a sense of intimacy in the way that the two figures are together and there's also this kind of. Maybe, I'm reading too much into it, but there's also this kind of Jahic womb power in the little crystal co they're both holding onto that kind represents their. Their wombs where they would be holding their child and maybe that's to woo for fourteenth century Europe. But like honestly I kinda doubt it there's a lot of we will going on then. So I wonder if there's a kind of feminist reading that you've brought to the work as you've grown older and have that more critical eye on art. Yeah absolutely. Not, being a medieval scholar I am sure this is not the right way to read this piece but I. Often hear the Christ story and I think even though. Mary is a spoken about. It's the man in that story specifically Christ specifically God that are really centered and I think that in this piece, the women both Mary and Catherine are the ones who are centered end. I think that as much as this might be a pregnancy seen I think it's also a scene about inner life and these two women experiencing inner life with one another. And I think that centers them far more than the future of the life of Christ So that's my personal reading and I would say that it is a feminist one I also love the idea that even though this is a sculpture made by a man, it was taken care of an imbued with the energy of the women who both cared for it. I learned from it and maybe had conversations around it. and. So I like thinking that although there is one artist who makes a work that the people for centuries who look at it are also absorbed, and so whatever creative force said that material object may have today at is kind of amalgamation of everyone who was engaged with it and I think, I'm glad you brought up the Wu thing I think this is also to the honest. One of the reasons I love medieval art so much is that Material both represented qualities but it I think they were also trying to like work out ways that material itself could be those qualities and. One of the things that people had to grapple with I imagine was like, how do you? Use. A material on earth. So it is by nature decaying to represent something that is supposed to be infinite, which is Scott or or holiness. And I think one of the answers was using crystals and using gems. Both because they represented wealth but also because they didn't decay visibly and I think the the hope of translation was at least in my mind a little bit that they they are. A kind of Taliban, a kind of magic vibrance in and of themselves when when utilized in a particular sculptural context. I'm really really happy that you brought this up because I want to give listeners a sense of what kind of materials are used in this work. It's carved in Walnut. You know they both have their little crystal covered cavities and it's like you know it's got a little bit of Gilding on it. That's really been really well preserved and I obviously the crystals have like you said a a certain amount of divine significance within this kind of work but you also use a lot of crystals and rocks in your latest works, and so I kinda wanted to know what significance they hold for you justice aside, no one of the things that I just wanted to point about about this sculpture. Is that the the crystals are before gem cutting and was developed, which was developed around the fifteenth century. And I've been getting really really into the visuals of this these kind of rounded gemstones and they don't shine in the same way that we associate chance to shine today but they hold a particular kind of milky. Almost I would say spiritual light So I just wanted to add that in real quick. Thank you for doing. So because I had no idea that Jim cutting wasn't a thing until the fifteenth century that's a really important historical data point. I. Don I mean I just I read about that recently and I was pretty fascinated by it just because the visuals are are so different and yeah the way that we we see gems today an associate them with a kind of luxury is particularly defined aesthetics with its own history. That that may have nothing or a lot to do with the quality of dumbed themselves. So I've been thinking about that a lot you know I think that the most important thing and question in my work is how one has intimacy. With the world around them and especially in a world that exists outside of a human timeframe. And ultimately, that is in ecological question for me as I think that. While legislative and scientific and political ecology are crucial and towards figuring out a symbiosis with their world i. think that a felt and a emotional connection also needs to be built up an order for people to kind of have felt symbiosis as well as an intellectual one And Stones for me and become a really really important. Subject matter because I'm interested in developing a kind of in intimacy with them an empathy with the stone And I think even though. Not to speak for all people but. Even, though so many of us might not grant stones. The same kind of intimacies that we might grant a tree. I think a lot of us. Even, subconsciously, have a relationship to picking up stones on the beach or stacking them in our houses and and I i. believe that that is indicative of kind of relationship with mineral bodies and maybe even Inci if this is too but drawing a correlation between our own mineral bodies in the mineral bodies of a different scale different material formation. So I'm kind of interested in that in my work in general, and then I think going back to the peace because this work both. kind of centers, the crystals in in the women's interiors and tenderness to me personally highlights the two things together which I find. Really Beautiful. I think that that's where a self beautiful and thank you so much for sharing with us. Thank you so much. This conversation has been wonderful. Outlooks. Martha. Title is at the storm King Art Center in New Windsor until the ninth of November and you can read more about the visitation at museum. Dot. Org. That's it. For this week, three, subscribe to the newspaper at the newspaper come subscribing at the top left of the and you'll find a range of subscriptions. Also, the top of the page you can find subscribe to various newsletters and it's to this podcast and a brush with. Already. STU gives a rating view if you've enjoyed. You can also find us on twitter at channel the FACEBOOK and instagram. The producers of the week art. Clack David also goes the editing task sound. Thanks to Andrea and buried Weezer Mattie to Margaret. I thank you for listening. See you next week. We cannot is sponsored by Christie's visit Christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction house in Seventeen. Sixty six oak should private sales online her not anytime.

Guston Philip Guston Maggie London Barry National Gallery director United States London Christie London caitlyn Feldman BBC president Andrea Ku Klux Klan National Gallery of art Boston Louisa Buck Glenn Ligon Berry Schwab
Stance Takes: Reframing The Black Image - Pioneers of The Past w/ Alayo Akinkugbe; Renata Cherlise; Theo Imani & Osei Bonsu

Stance

42:45 min | 7 months ago

Stance Takes: Reframing The Black Image - Pioneers of The Past w/ Alayo Akinkugbe; Renata Cherlise; Theo Imani & Osei Bonsu

"Welcome to pioneers of the past. Especial stance takes made in partnership with bakun tech for the no face gucci collaboration tired of a lack of representation of black people in our exhausted by the narrative suffering surrounding are rare appearances in paintings and photography fed up of it being backward when it comes to looking blackwoods. Well you're not alone. Settle down and get comfortable and get ready to be inspired because this program is for you. We'll bring you the new forces that accumulating a making art that challenges the pallet status quo. They're redefining gets to choose view. And critique the black image tearing up the orthodoxy each in their own way is inspiring new ways of seeing they are pioneers in remapping and rethinking the place of the black image and how is presented in art and culture. So let's meet them from cambridge. England is a liar king kobe. Who's challenging the academy her instagram of black history of art. I'm a student art history student at the university of cambridge. But i will. Sir launched the page about history of this year on it. i highlight the overlooked. Black artists think as citizens from history from florida usa renata chilies hawaiian extraordinary archive of black images at black archive dot com. That's redefining who chooses the images preserved and celebrated i wanted to dig deeper into storytelling and just working through images and just fascinated by the ways in which we can stories how to block experiencing and black way applies throughout the year. It's it's a beautiful community. Park from. Verona italy the amani an italian ghana and medical student. An artist with a passion for finding echoes between the african and european image. I'm a student at the university of via by have a critical interest and africa. Contemporary art for me like african. Contemporary art is a pint of entry to find sport belonging with different lack reality across the globe. And in london paris osei bond sue the curator african art working to portray multidimensional images of the black experience. A moment i'm three hundred national. Lots of tate. Modern in london. i was tate. I was an independent curator run. I was very much involved with african International law and. That's really the work that i bought into the tate so i was voted in as an international curators to oversee the africa acquisitions committee which is a committee. That analyst hate to financially support an african artists through the acquisitioning of works in through expanding our collection we start the program with ought to archivists separated by the atlantic both building visual archives that a challenging established preconceptions of black images in the digital space both are driven by compulsion to challenge the lazy thinking that dominates the art world in relation to the depiction of black people. This is particularly true of eliah. Twos black history of our instagram voted onto the scene earlier lost year. She told me how it all began. Well i started it in february and it really kind of took off in june. When i did take the great women artists in rampage. And that's kind of when it like exposure and then started gaining so many followers. I started out of like my frustration towards the lack of black representation on my course i knew going into it. That history was very kind of traditional very european eurocentric coolest to study just as degree. But i don't think. I realized just how little we would be paying attention to black artists so in my i am. I didn't actually look at a single black artist. Which i didn't realize until i started the page so all the all the black figures kind of represented in very subordinate roles or kind of serving White figures and i guess that's because those are the paintings that you see. There's the paintings so we studied all the canonized paintings that show black figures as secondary white figures. Which is also what you get when you're into most museums like the national gallery and like non modern art museums. Like i had the idea in my head from i yet. I looks like something called a black history of art and the name is very crucial. Because it's not. I'm not saying this is black history of art and then there's regular history. I'm saying this is. Everything is black about history dot so it really kind of started. Because i had i was doing a contemporary of course at uni and this was the first time that i had been exposed to onto so we looked at some artists in america and he s. I remember we looked at glenn ligon luna simpson and just kind of like icons of like an american bridge who in black and it was served for the first time. Inspiring to me to be studying like all that was created by black people because obviously in my head. I hadn't realized because i'm not keeping tabs on the autism studying. But i hadn't actually had the experience of seeing all studying in detail ought greeted by black people so because i enjoyed it so much and that was probably the moment at which i was enjoying my degree the most when i had the opportunity to look up your office of the same color as me. I was enjoying it so much. And i was kind of about the fact that i knew that the other papers i would do in the to come wouldn't really have any black representation so i wanted to kind of continue that and that's why i started the page. Rinat shalit's currently lives in florida. After many years in chicago she began sharing images on tumbler in twenty thirteen and all five evolved into the website blackhawks. Fives dot co. It's instagram has more than three hundred and fifty thousand followers. And it's a treasure trove of images i- oeste to explain how she goes about rating her work. Polling from the archives are already available and so that's part of that process of uncovering and exploring. Because i feel like images. Are there available through different archives and libraries across the internet and so the hard part or the the the dirty part the dirty work right. is fifteen through those images. You know sifting through those libraries and archives and pulling out those moments. I just really speak to you. And then just sharing them mean there's really no rhyme or reason as to why i may choose a photo or a series of photos or a home video but i think they all just play along than the larger part of just bringing this experience making the festival in a way that we can just kinda tap into that memory. Your tap into that resource. Did you just fold into curation of latin a little bit more about your curatorial johnny and who semi framing the black image. Tell me about what it was. So crucial t. It was a very natural and organic process for me. You know i don't have a degree and Territorial practice or an art degree or anything of that nature And so. I feel like the way that i approach it. It's outside of academia It's outside of a you know your your typical institution but it's it's assessable. It makes it accessible to everyone. And so the idea. Or the girl behind him the way that i present image through In tapping to that through my personal lived experience Collective memory as a community as the black community as a black collective despite their different pause renata and aligarh on the same mission to find an center black imagery in the visual arts and bring it to the masses in allies work a recurring theme is an interest in the models used fine art known as sitters. He or she explains how their stories reveal hidden. Histories with burst of the blocks writes about would actually have their name or who. They are what they did. So i could just kind of speculate on what their role could have been with what i can find in books on the internet And so i guess it is kind of reframing kind of shifting the frame if you like of shifting the focus especially when there's also white figuring it said like for instance money's olympia if i was talking about it on my page i would only talk about the made who has called a her name was received discovered to be laura and i would just kind of focused on her and her role as an artist model and who she might have been what we know about her. So i think it is. I'm daphne trying to sort of like. I say these figures who. We've ignored these because we don't studied in on the curriculums and our degrees and that's talk about them. Let's let's talk about that role in the painting a painting money's -ympia you have like the made in the background. She's serving the white woman who's lying on the bed and she's presenting some flowers. She's kind of in this painting to actors like chiaroscuro the the light and the dog so she's sort of presenting like an an opposite to enhance the whiteness of the figure. That's lying on the on the bed. And i think that's probably the extent which out of spoken about in my degree of the extent to which election might have discussed the made for me. I feel like this is the center. And i want to shift the focus to this. I'm not trying to marginalize them. I'm not trying to say look this like figure on the outskirts. That's awesome this person. What challenges do you think. Keep you face safe. All interested in So because obviously most of what i'm doing is on instagram The biggest thing has been trying to present like a view of the paintings. That is unbiased. Because i'm the only person writing mc options. So i'd put out an all this information. That is just my opinion. So i feel like finding a balance between just talking about painting in a way. That isn't just projecting viewpoint onto it but also still being able to express my opinions. I'll always put in brackets like in my opinion. So i think that has been the hottest thing with the posts. Probably the thing that comes up with paintings of black people as everyone seems to assume that there's suffering so it's always it's always linked to the black person race not linked to the individual person and i'm that is kind of frustrating for me because on the one hand yes i always wanted to consider what it is to be about person in the world that we live in the context of race on the button of racism and everything but i feel like it's a bit narrower to constantly look at black figures in paintings and always just like think about the suffering. You know what i mean like. Sometimes that can be it can be about the individual person and an expression doesn't necessarily mean like a non smiling figure it doesn't mean that the figures deeply unhappy and it must be because of racism or something like that. I feel i can often be reductive. People interpret paintings of black people in there like Because of this this this context associate political context. This is why this person looks like this but actually everyone lives in individual lives. I don't know if you've seen the Don't watch shirt the tate britain. It's incredible but just like the figaro paintings of black people but it's just people like sort of enjoying the company of other black people don standing at the beach like just complete just like living as a human being not tied to any kind of idea of suffering this challenge of not only finding but then interpreting images of authentic black experiences. One rinat is familiar with she. Talks about how choice. An interpretation should be approached with confidence and clear vision because now is the time honestly. I feel like now. We're in a place where we can be more visible. And so i wear reimagining these spaces we can create our own rules right and be intentional about the ways in which we are our stories and and being pinched about the way the we we need to document our story so that the future doesn't look as it does right now. We can be intentional about the way that we want to see ourselves in the future. One of the biggest challenges and stuff. I wanted to be inclusive or show. An image of you know something that we know exists or has existed but that image just does not appear in in the archives for me to you know dig al bring to light and share with a larger community the way that we can move around that. Is you know occasionally. I'll do you know an open call for images and submissions and hopefully those missions. You know we're able to tap into story that are outside of the you know the digital library. The program we all star guests to talk us through an image encapsulated their approach. Or what's important to them as a pitcher that marked the beginning of all is support. Trade of madelene formerly known as portrait of a negro. This is also the first painting that i posted on my page black history of the foundations of my like love history called portrait of madelynn. And it's a painting in the louvre and it's actually by a white artist called married you mean benach and it depicts a black woman who they recently. I think the lose. The traces of the news recently discovered that her name was so the got is presented sitting down and she has a white head wrapped around ahead and she's wearing a white dress and her her right breast is like bed and the only other callers kind of apart from white and the sort of beige of the background split on red which kind of speaks to the patriotism of the trickle in france french flag. This painting really got me into history itself. Because i spoke about at school for a competition and i was thinking about the mainly and this is where the whole citizen obsession comes from. I was like fascinated by this. I wanted to find out more about her but there was certainly could do also to school. There was speculation that she could have been a slave tend and saved a ton seven and i was thinking about how she probably didn't have much say in how she was presented and she was more like treated as an object by the artist. I was just thinking about the tension between portraiture. And i'm just kind of making this painting a black person with the psychology of whom you're not trying to engage with so at the time i thought that the figures represented very kind of dignified and elegant. I was kind of shocked to see a black figure. Represented this week renounce. His choice of imagery was gordon. Parks secretary story. Luckily oh she's interested in reaching beyond the way we are conditioned to understand the position of blackness within an image you know that collection of work by grand park fishes. It's breathtaking for me. Because it you know a lot of his work prior to And thereafter black and white and so we get really get to see these moments in color and the color vivid color you know and to be in alabama or anywhere in the south You know and the black man You know this body of work. It's just really speaks to me And especially with me being from the south you know. It was born and raised in the south before relocating chicago for quite some time and so even through joining this work you know away from you know being owned you know i always go back to these images and go back to to These photographs this body of work and feel home. It feels familiar And i don't know he's just. He's just incredible photographer. And and then actually you just saying that. I'm just made me really think 'cause at first. The image is really striking so there is a woman a african american woman holding a baby not cheese the nanny. And then there's a white to amend ashim the baby's mother cetane so next to her but then it's also very much a kind of segregated. See but actually your right this story and is important about who impacts kind of getting there right and she'd being the person taking the show. Yeah and so. I mean we do see those moments within that segregate and within the segregation story. We see the moments of them sitting in you know a bus station. i believe. That's the photograph at your. You're referring to and she's just holding the baby and the woman is just you know looking off in the air. You know in that that photo it you know it's embedded in my memory but there are so many other photos within that collection where it's it's we know that we're in a segregated time in in a segregated space but you know it's still captures the everyday black moment so there's a photo within that theory where there are two women you know standing outside on either side of a a clothesline. Just you know talking and hanging up clothes. And you know the sheets are hanging and and and and falling with the win and there colorful and vibrant. And that's the part that really sticks with me. Because i think about my childhood and growing up where my grandmother would go outside and hang up. She clean clothes. I oppose line. You know and so it's always about bringing it back to something that's familiar to me. And they're a wonderful page of as well of a couple of a couple of sitting down and nichols flowers in the shaw put. Enough is very easy. Safer ashley's as so bright red and yet they're just relaxing in imposing then this pictures of children to get the bachelor white children so yeah. This is a huge ordeal But as you say it's also just much you know every day every day images. Yeah and tell me a little bit and finally why we think why Was sample to you. And why gordon power. I come back to because it's it's like we. We don't see these outside of this body of work where where do these images exist and so it's something i'm always coming back to always referencing He's just he's the master of his his craft. And even though i'm i'm not a photographer i will say his work study. You know The way in which he captured those moments In the way that he he tells the story. So i may study the photograph a bit different from an actual hertog refer but i feel like the message is clear you know and it. It reminds us that no matter where we are within this journey weather. I'm a curator. Or if i'm a photographer that it's important to document you know not only for the moment you know. Ask you know what he was doing. But also for you know forced to reflect back on and for us to new as a guy as we move forward to their work. We're not as an alliance bill places where the black image lives through itself. Rather than some kind of a distraction from the white nome times have changed dramatically and is reflected in this revolution of agency south from verona italy. Theo amani an italian ghana medical student and visual researcher with a passion for finding echoes between the african and european image. So go the demanding. Were i find a great arrests. Announced is Odd photographs especially family album photographs Because nyc to me they narrate A sense of of formation. Especially here in italy. Really have a lot of visual artists. That tells the story of African immigrants that came here and early nineties. So the only way to annul about this. History and distilleries is through The the football rooms I'm really interested in in that aspect and and of course talking about art in art in general illit been born and raised here needs a not heaven. An approach account not being exposed to black art. I tried to find a way to Rediscovered this coach rainer returns so The project started by accident. Let's say so so i was starting four Arugula jags saw was at the a rays console of various patient. And in a moment of procrastination. I started to look at images of arts just to breathe a bit and it started out. I guess the at the end of two thousand seventeen when the new york times published a nautical talking about trauma and goes each and the article was accompanied by a photo by career may williams which echoed one of his photographs of the kitchen table series. So i Those two images. And from that point on i just wanted to find other similarities that i could. I could remember and there is a code. I always liked to share a by by the art critic. Jon berg a- at the beginning of is booked way of seeing and his essays that The chide lok before it can speak and for me and like to me. It was it was the same and enduring this project. Because at the beginning i didn't have language i was just looking at images and find this echoes among Realities that were Apparently contrasted dan. I tried to to found to find a language to support this fraud and a help. I i found in building a language I got it for the words. Scoff Conceptual artist lorraina grady. Who made a series entitled. Ms. donated family album where she created dipped experiment of family Family photos with our to our logical photo scarf nifty. And when asked in an interview about this about this series. She said that her it was always A question of both end up being a desk for subject has self. She'll always tried to contain a different Different points of views I think how was sounds true for me as well because this project i tried to to show Visually this inbetween this that i live as best subject as as a person of Ganja origin born and raised in italy. Some some of the deputies say can have A social media. Let's say so and addis are more like visual visual play visual visual rhyme. So in this in this first. One i Wanted to to pay this. Price co By andrea mantegna. Desfray scores in the Comedy us policy in mount of the photograph. I bet did frisco with his by mexican photographer. Monroe monmouth county. And i just love the. Let's say we can say the the touch of chide holden on hand presumably have motto his motto at the echoes sti The way the chide tied to to of his father. The title of the project is echoes agreements. That the title. I got the title from a text by code in his book. Blind spot in one of the texts in blindspot were tissue colour companies. His photographs this context. He was described in a picture taken. Were was a man sitted when we'll chat into the foreground and echoing the presence of a man in the background next to a tree and in the text as you court writes. The two men were not aware of the echoes. The day created a media called the only stunt ramani invisibility cuisine as soon of registrar star. I mean okay. Van goghs fear so the thousand such echoes in agreements. Every minute almost all go and see an almost not a recorded unless photography into veins so in a similar way i wanted to intubate in the industry of art and record this this echoes in agreement that we can find and of course being been of african descent being living in europe. It was tied immediate for me to find this This visual conversation among Might to cultural backgrounds. I think you've done so it really conveying. What as you said to the vision compensation to connect your t. backgrounds but also just for me looking at them in the speaking to each other radio beautifully and thank very well which avenue elect by this one went. Went you seek a hand. Oh we have one win. Pitcher says she nina smain his new reading to georgia. And then there's another picture of a woman in odu pitcher with reading to tehran gem and there were so many conversations in this. How'd you think how'd you think immigration migration can shape the portrayals of black people envision the e. c. I think visual is a great testimony of the blood presence in italy and We can find representations of black people dates back to the thirteenth century. So those were presentation tells us that the prince of black people in detailer soil is not a novelty public sphere. View us disorder off News new citizen New citizen that trying to Be be part of the social landscape of the country. The biggest challenge for us hannity is to find a link between this three different realities of the black phrases in italy in order to To a from our rights because we are conducting different struggles because for instance the children off african immigrants conducting the struggle for citizenship and Whereas diffused that the migrants were crossing to see Dr truffle tighty though both Both struggles Undead that say semantic umbrella of tiny but the the hughes slightly slightly different. Theo's images along with elias monotonous collections or examples of how a new cohort of black artist and curator's resetting the parameters of how the black image is appreciated. But it's not only about the image but also about new independent frameworks of understanding new rules. How do we reach towards a new expression of blackened iceberg off that includes represents everyone now bassett challenge someone. Who's been thinking about this. A lot is awesome. Bon sued osei has recently been appointed international curator at london's tate modern in order to make a story inclusive one shouldn't kind of aim for university entity because what we often see with Throughout history of odd is stories that we thought of as being universal and could be applied to any context one infect universal because they specific often to western culture and western ideas of the image in its representation because as you mentioned the african diet sports so evolves and and actually. No one story is like actually artifically. Now i think a really claiming to hold space full that complexity. And they don't want to have their what mealy kind of shoot wounded into an existing narrative but they'd like to create new ones reflect their own experiences. So i think that in a way is possibly the most challenging thing about where we're at at the moment in terms of thinking about the african diaspora is that we know this experienced the beasts of multiple whether it's literature music art people artist rather are expressing that in very specific ways and i think the role of peculiar then becomes more nuance. Because it's not enough just to get those perspectives and say here is a show of a blessed perspectives on african perspectives. It's about thinking about why. Those perspectives are important and how they might relate to one another or not. And i think that in my role. Take one of the things that i tried to push against quite often is the idea that african is kind of malignant can use both of in specific terms when in fact it speaks to lots of very traditions there as much about you know african religious spiritual traditions as they all have traditions of that. Say you know a western all of all our that deal specifically with ideas of gender. So i think there were so many interesting dialogues to be head around this and i think the role of the curator is really kind of complicate. Those donaldson push it further absolutely and you taught in you said the kind of narrative surrounding black card. Let's say and the black image. How do you think it's changed since she started work. And your curatorial practice. Have you seen a bit of a shift. I think it absolutely has shifted in the sense. That when i was studying for my master's in history of all was very much a sense that if you wanted to undertake serious dissertation subject it had to be something that already had autism importance and often what was deemed important. Were let's say art histories that had been defined both by the european and the american academies so there wasn't a huge space full blackness at dice boric representation. And i think that that was in a way i appointed furstration amended almost mccain's something to kind of work against and i found myself doing is trying to connect multiple history for instance about early french garden. What was called the time negro failure which is the kind of friendship. God's fixation on the black audie and betsy late representation older black figure by black garters. So what does it mean to have those two perspectives kind of rub up against each other. and in. What ways did they reveal things about Desire race sexuality. And that i think very much still prevalent in society so it was. I think trying to find those ought historical links and in a way thinking about the ways in which art history could be relevant to more than just academics. His choice of image osei selected one by. Not me me funny. Koa so this is kind of a typical image for tv. In the sense that it's the cau- kind of male nude but much more complex than that. Of course you know. People have written about his work in relations robert mapplethorpe. Who in a way depicted the blackmail. Bodine a very hyper sexualize. Way in new york specific moment. What he's done with this particular body of work is to really think through ways in which kind of the black for the be reinspired within the narrative of spirituality. A moment you see with the subject on holding kendall is this incredible Kind of delicacy to the image in a kind of tentativeness. That's exactly throughout a ritchie. Me's what can there was something. So distinctive about the way in which will so many of his cities were relations close friends a net. I think was really important to him. But somehow it wasn't just the act of taking someone else's image on kind of recreating purely for his own desire but it was about in a way i think creating a space within which this within the black body could be reunited with a sense of emphasis three in a sense of tradition. I think that's come through. What so many young artists doing today whether it's not it's like the Pay or even someone like semi bellucci that ultra issue are decisively coming from different parts of africa with very different perspectives. But they're interested in this idea that our history is so complex and it so layered and what it demands In a way kind of cooling upon ancestoral memory and in a way the all becomes a kind of portal that allows for that communion in the aftermath of a year where george slice death led to much institutional soul searching some light touch some not. I asked say what he thought was changing if you think about more and more Academies the now seeking out scholars of black studies african art or african american arts. And i think that's a really important thing. But i also see a kind of sense that maybe people overlook those histories in professional capacity as writer curator or academics are now starting to really think about that. That historical neglect an hal. They may have been complicit. In those. Those exclusionary tactics say so. I think that this a kind of a rising consciousness on around these issues. But i don't think we're anywhere near the change that we need to see and i would say that because it comes from a perspective of i think how stories told and thinking about the all of those stories. So you know it's one thing for someone to say you know. Let's include nonsense of color in an exhibition because it makes the show more diverse and then it's another level of attention altogether to suggest that that artist is worthy of the same kind of historical reading but they white counterparts have been have been for you know decades if not centuries so it's it's about in a way it's about correcting the record but it's about doing that deep nuanced historical work into thinking about not about a of new pennant but about a kind of a new constellation in the way of history definitely. This is really exciting. Actually and And you'll rise is definitely one another thing to actually put lots of research in an Away said budget behind his folks. You know that tells you a denies. The priorities launched of certain challenges e field. You come up against as yours in within your specific rollers incubator. Would you say. I think the challenges have to do this something. Hopefully your your audience can relate to is maybe the sense of even though you know the the black community of the that have a stake in involved in organizing exhibitions. All very active at the moment and there is a huge amount. Being done across the board. I what excites me so much. Now that institutions are in the positions where they really have to actually now listened to those autism. Listen to those curator's on those voices. But i think so often what was the case with black creatives. You know working in these launched lodge industries was that we were kind of expected to take what was given to us. And i remember speaking to an all just recently About this and about the. When they were given solo exhibitions they would just say. Oh you know. I don't care about the artist fee. it's not a problem. And i think back that kind of idea somehow that we should just be happy to be there has to kind of. I think has to dissipate effectively. What i'm saying is that it's not enough to have a seat at the table. We have to come to the table knowing exactly what we want out of the institutional out of particular opportunity. And that's what i would encourage lots of black creatives to think about. One of the challenges has always been the lack of community. Actually i won't within the black community as it relates to the world and i think that's had to do with lots of things a lack of institutional conditions like opportunities for artists. Something that i think in my career. I've really work again. So what would it mean to practice of radical generosity. Enter open doors to others rather than to see oneself as a gatekeeper. That's why whenever a younger curated reaches out an emerging artists who wants advice. I'm always happy to help. And i and. I don't know that i necessarily received that when i was starting out. The shaw i did have meant wasn't people that were really. I'm pivotal impact in tons of building my career. But i guess you best one of the challenges. I think we need to build a sense of community because i think to a large extent. It's the thing that i think holds us back right. The lack of being able to acknowledge that we we need one another. And actually even if you're not necessarily aligned with someone's of aesthetic intellectual position there aren't there on another bus to be competitive in the way that i often find creative fields can be when it comes to plat creative. So i'm i'm interested in that. And i guess as far as my role is concerned. That's something. I will continue to work towards and think about. But where do we go from here. How do you represent the voss range of black creative expression map it. In a way that creates evolving framework of understanding one that is intentionally chosen to reflect black life or not as the is as it feels whilst it's reassuring the office witness some change and i've been amazed by the similarities in parallel thinking happening across the globe. I keep hearing. We're not as cleef intention. -ality that now is time to embrace our revolutionized agency in curiosity and action as she and aligarh have as the establishment response to be alum has shown there's a long way to go before exit to pro structures exist or even desired by some. And do we need to ask ourselves with wet all doing enough to encourage and build an art community cart to rise by the radical generosity. Say spoke of enough to challenge ourselves to authentically showcase the black image in all its nuances. Do we too often valuable kind of lack. Imagery that sells or place into notions of particular moment or connects to of your community in order to fit in relying on some kind of misplaced sense of kinship which inadvertently creates boundaries borders or even invisible lines that obscures the true expression of the black experience on this sir and in our own imaginations which is the experience after all. Thanks to say the oh eliah bernarda for coming onto stance and thanks to vibe could tech gucci and the no face for supporting this edition of stance takes. I'm crystal genesis. The producer was nicole. Logan the executive producer charlie bell digital production by joel dunkin and farrell man sound designed by axel kukuchi and this was a staunch studios production made with vibe khoo teck for the north face and gucci collaboration t on the first of the month.

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Art Researcher and Auction Specialist, Suzy Sikorski, Mid East Art + Christies (Dubai, UAE)

The Wise Fool

1:13:23 hr | 3 months ago

Art Researcher and Auction Specialist, Suzy Sikorski, Mid East Art + Christies (Dubai, UAE)

"Could you please pronounce your name correctly for me. Susie sikorsky and you. And i met but twenty twelve fourteen when you came to the uae. That right it was twenty sixteen. I just graduated college. I got a fulbright scholarship to leave the united arab emirates and was researching and trying to dig into the old artistry of the country and so we were connected who were mutual friends at the university and that is where our paths started. Okay wait take you back a step something. I love hearing people sort of their backstory their childhood. So how did you even get interested in middle eastern art a but how did you also want to hear about how you got a fulbright. Scholarship 'cause are astounding. Yes so to paint you a picture. I am an american from new york. I'm not from manhattan. I'm not from the free side west. I'm from long island capital of suburbia. Grew up there. Mix between seinfeld and everybody loves raymond my life in a nutshell. I love it. And it's something that i am so proud to say that i'm from there and it's funny when you try to put the puzzle pieces together and backtrack and my earliest childhood. Memories are sitting on my boardwalk and looking at the boats that were parts before entering the harbor and right near jfk airport and not is the closest. Let's say to an international life. That i had my mom would travel to western europe and would bring home stuck down from germany or london but that was really what got me into. The mid east was living in a post nine eleven culture. Very honest with you. You know earliest memories during that time. Post nine eleven. Were very difficult for growing up an area where i mean we weren't in manhattan but you had very many friends that had family or or we all maybe new people that passed from nine eleven and it was in a way of addressing the wounds that this had caused the area where i was from an i instead my earliest maps in the middle east were during this time. Post nine eleven. I wanted to learn about the history and culture of of the region and only started later. When i was in university that i had a chance to learn about. It'll eastern politics. History took Sacred texts the middle east. I took all these different courses to show understand about the culture met people from the region and had just know coffee or lunch is just to learn more of people from morocco. Saudi arabia all over. And i only found out middle. Eastern art was actually existing through my time. I interned at christie's auction house in their postwar contemporary art department early on loved our was learning about i was studying international politics at at fordham university of new york and ended up visiting an exhibition in leyla art. Gallery in twenty fourteen and heard in art. Speaking artists speak and it was the first time that i connected my interest in politics. History arts altogether and it was like this a ha moment that this exists and this is an actual path that i want to take. I was overwhelmed excited sprinkled with youth and your ambition of what you wanna do in life and it like this was it. This is what i wanted to do. The rest is history in terms of being washed up on the shores of the by and finding myself here six seven years later and never looking back. Okay good overview but. Let's take a step back actually one of the things. I'm interested in with a lot of people's basically. How do they get made so. Were your parents creative. Did you have good teachers. Like what was the thing that even lead you down the interest in the creative fields. I would say my mom is very creative. It's not what she does the profession and it's it's very different. She's in insurance but my my mom is was drying interior design fashion. I i was very much. Well acclimated to an interior design. I i though was always so crafty. My father owned a printing company. And i was actually exposed at a young age to all the facets of the printing industry so i was obsessed with bookmaking paker. Imagine as a kid you had full access to any type of paper you wanted. I had a business card since i was five years old. I wanna be a doctor. I had a doctor business card. I had shiny holographic paper colored. And i would construct homes out of paper. I made my inner imagination was through you know being at my father's printing company And being able to go. If i could be assisted by an adult and go in the back and see the heidelberg printing presses and you know the massive cutter i used to call it the chopper and i still don't know what it's actually called. But i used to say the chopper that would like a thousand sheets in one false move and this was my playground often called a guillotine cutter. Yeah guillotine cutter. Yeah it was. And i still when i smell inc. I have memories of my. My father's printing industry printing company. You know i was philip. I was part of the crew. Sure i smelled sherry wine or l even know what cherries watch. When i smell sherry. I think of Church because my. That's what the wind that my dad served as minister. He used sherri as the communal wine. So yeah since. Memories are very strong right now. You said you didn't internship. At christie's i didn't internship. It was very early on when i was just learning about arts. Twenty thirteen of the fall and internet in the postwar contemporary art department. It was my first real exposure to art and it was an amazing opportunity to be able to work with the team there and prepare for their sale. There was a triptych of lucian. Freud that was sold that year. I was sick ironic enough. It's always that moment. I had the flu literally the day of that evening sale that i helped at least be part of the team to prepare for and i was sick. Which was so frustrating. There was a a dog balloon dog from. Why am i drawing a blank. Jeff koons yeah. There was a jeff koons. Orange balloon dog that was sold. It was a really exciting. I helped write a part of the peace to a warhol. Nineteen sixty four flours. So is a very interesting exposure for me. And i i won't forget it. I worked with a team that was at the time. A b- coupla is now at said abuse was was there and she had told me you know. I was at the time knicks between studying morocco or the by and it was almost a sense of just like go for a take a chance travel and i did. I went to sharja for my junior year. I didn't go to madrid. I didn't go to london. I went all the way to sharja and had the most important turning point in my professional exposure to the region my personal life. I mean it was like a whole coming of age in one fell swoop back in sharja. So i'm sarah. I'm giggling in the background. Because you're super young and yet you're talking about like in my career like you. Don't get your careers less than ten years right like you don't really have like career under in decades kind of career completely understand. I know that my. I'm still just a neil fights in the massive industry that there is but i will say being probably this new yorker that i've been working i was out of the womb. You know you're just like thrown in to the workforce right away. And i was a very ambitious student that had no idea about i had no contacts here. I started from ground zero. I started and introduce myself. And i would work at these galleries said every way that i could exhausted myself in learning about the scene through collaborating with galleries art fairs and working with them. To help sell pieces. I would be writing in regional art magazines like harper's bazaar arabia. I started this instagram. At the time. That was just a way to remember artists. Apes i mean for me muhammad. Do not are not joe james of the us and it's like it was a completely different language. I wasn't learning. Our i was learning are back at the time but it was more of a deepening french but our it was very new to me so it was. I really started from the beginning and end being in shenzhen studying abroad even just as a junior in college was extremely important. Because every trip that i did make and i remember it in from my hands these trips of introducing myself to the scene into artists and writing my thesis on. Uae art history. It was like a waterfall effect of every single person. I met help me to get to where i am today. Indeed now wait okay. Go back a step. Because fulbright's i want to get a little bit on that because i've had a couple of guests that have gotten fulbright's i i was aware of fulbright's when i was in high school but nobody really said yes. You could apply for that licence. Like i knew they existed. But i didn't really understand what they were so from what i understand. It's basically a year plot anybody they can apply and and then they just like fund you to go and do research on whatever it is that you have a fascination with for one year or something to that effect is that about right yes so. There is an english teaching assistant fulbright. There's also the independent research fulbright. And so i did the latter. I remember the pre departure orientation when we were all together with all the full writers. We obviously were section within the region. Middle east was one but you have people from all over. The world and many many people were english teaching assistant so they would travel spaces of law at were you either. We fulbright students who basically just came out of undergrad and then you had fulbright scholars that were. Let's say applying this to the doctorate or more well know older more experienced whatever it was so we had the mix but i always gravitated towards those that had their own independent research. And i started this idea right. After i got back by junior i was in sharjah in paris and i started to be connected to many of the different artists in the uae. I naturally have a passion for interviewing artists for being around them in their studio learning about what makes them tick. And i could. I could speak to them for hours about snow. Only their part practice even about just the regional art history and so. I realized this is an interesting topic that i wanted to explore. There was an opportunity to apply for the fulbright early senior year and it turned into the application for the fulbright evolved into my thesis on uae. Artistry i was able to do a few field trips. Tutti way eat to help. Put the pieces together of interviewing these artists. So that was my senior year looked in. It was around the same time of finding out i got. The fulbright was when i was graduating. It was very last minute. Everything was on edge. And i ended up getting the fulbright the same month that i graduated undergrad and that was an exciting chapter. A new door opening. So then you land into by and you were a bit lost this. I met you but you pretty quickly got. You're sort of a sense of what you wanted to do. And you've ended up creating this thing mideast art which is his own online digital platform and in the process of doing that. You also got yourself a job. Working at christie's dubai so kudos on both but started with mead east art so tell us a little bit about what that is. And what's it sort of mission. So as i said in the beginning mid-east starts started initially as instagram. But in a way. I love instagram. Because it was forming this archival documentation in the beginning. I actually started at rid. Emmett us like iphone apps to photoshop art work in my current surroundings. I would put. I remember like i was laying down on my couch. And pudding had the sheffi and her works in the sky and her circular Scroll works like this. Was the initials like this artistic experimentation. It was my own project. Mind you fast. Forward to now where i was studying abroad. Starting to documenta exhibitions. I'm seeing all under the umbrella of middle eastern art. Once i got the fulbright's i realized that the basis of what i wanted to do was interviewing and documenting all of these pioneer artists from the uae and of course expanding to the gulf region. It's a personal interest. I do find. Naturally the cultures are very intertwined. And for me. I loved learning documenting about these early stories of when these art scenes or starting in the challenges and how that happens so many starts was a way to publish all of the research that i was doing with the fulbright it was repository of the short films. I was creating the interviews. I was creating the publications. I was working towards in terms of writing these regional art magazines. That was what many start was. And then it evolved of not only putting all the documentation but also putting critical analysis and applying it grounding it in regional modern art history which was reinforced through my time. Working at christie's part of the fun of like talking catching up with you and talking to you about this is that i i know you in passing ish kind of way. We've we've run into each other for almost a decade now kind of thing but like i would love to hear because the you are a young a successful person in the arts and i look back on my career and i'm like fuck. I obviously did something horribly wrong. Because she's way ahead of me so as a listener to this podcast. I would be like. Oh okay i need to listen to this person because they did something right. Then i me as the host deed wrong. I can only tell you matthew my ethos to how i'm living right now you know where i am. I left my whole family moving halfway across the world not knowing anyone from the region. I have a distant relative in portugal who i could say. Maybe a halfway point but i haven't you know we haven't met. My closest relatives are new york and new jersey and there is some thing a drive in me that is keeping me here and i can only tell you it is an. It's not an obsession but it is my passion. It is what keeps me here. It's having interviews with artists. Finding commonalities in cultures is what drives me. It's what keeps me going. It's what makes me feel this internal child and questioning of feeling similarities or feeling curiosities and exhausting myself in asking questions putting puzzle pieces together. This is what human now. But you said the mideast ended up being something where you could sort of quantify some things store statistical data and things like this. What kind of outcomes of cotton from that. Because for the listeners. I also lived in the united arab emirates for awhile and it's it's a tough region to get concrete data in like you can get stories you can get like. Oh you know so. And so did something. At some point in the seventies kind of like it's very hard to get quantifiable data from lease in the uae. So what have you been able to sort of garner from all your conversations. Why we need in terms of i i would say. I shy less from statistical data as more understanding the overarching numbers numbers. In in. who was practicing art of time. It was such like in terms of how you quantify the research that i was doing particularly. Ua there was very few artists that were practising artists that say in the seven these in eighties and very few women that were practising at the time. There are an those that were like. Dr shuts mckee. Mona judd fucks me. They all have very unique stories as to how they sustain and carry the momentum in their practice own very unique in different ways what interests me the most was understanding what made an artist successful in understanding why they were successful. Whether was the work the compositions that they created what they were inspired by. When i speak with many locals here works. That are more historical classical compositions of. Let's just say miss. The kea such as Race which might not have as much demand maybe as much demand internationally if you look at it putting it. Let's say in an auction setting for now. Mind you we have in the past. And well received many instances. But i'm telling you on a level of human connection when you have someone from the region looking out of work that references they were from their families were from. It's an immediate connection. Immediate gratification of this reminds me of my home and so you have artists that did that. You have had artists that did that. And then you had others like hasn't shitty that were jumping in the desert and using found objects in pieces from the garbage and constructing. These monstrosities that the actually security guards throughout the works. 'cause i didn't know what it was. There was a massive gap in the society of what contemporary art practices were. What performance installation that type of work. But it's a very interesting mix between those that prefer the traditional classical compositions versus those that like installations and performance art. And all of that. But i think that was most interesting. And in my thesis for my undergrad. I really wanted to choose and pinpoint you know. Certain that flourished during particular times and why based on what they were producing so that was most interesting for me of seeing why certain artists gained more recognition during the certain time mohammad qasem based on the changes of of of the landscape of the uae started taking photographs of himself and flags behind a changing landscape of the which was interesting and he was taught under hasson should he was doing a lot in terms of measuring his body or or measuring himself. Which is something that hon did as well but it was interesting for artists to document. The changing landscape in the race also did as well in his work artists. That replaced by nature in by studio space was outdoors. Hamad brahim was part of that five group that was darted in the ninety s and you see many artists such as hasaan that used found objects and would create these almost creature like beings and be out in the mountains and using the material of the land. There studio space was more outdoors. Okay but i always found it the keep in mind so i was there and i was teaching my students and there is. There is a difficulty with the acceptance. I don't know if acceptance is the right word but the nation slash purchasing collecting of middle eastern art outside of the middle east lay. It seemed like it was very much but and don't get me wrong. Every region is sort of the same like americans collect american artists. Europeans collect european artists. Like not i'm not sort of picking on them but there seems to be like a push to try to make them more international Early internationally recognized or collected in the past. I'd say like ten years or so. So that is that working. Is it being achieved in the market. You have different. You have the the primary market. Which are the galleries which you start. Seeing now or recently artists from the region being represented and this has been something since the last ten years of of galleries or more galleries representing artists and participating in international affairs or having satellite space abroad other than by whether it was invaded or in. I don't know in london. Hope near new york and many of these artists gained exposure through that which was important and then you had as i said the fares before pandemic times which are extremely extremely important in helping make. These artists be better known internationally christie's and auction houses. So we started two thousand six. Were really important. In highlighting in cultivating a regional and then ultimately being international house a global market for these artists. It was really some of the first time. Not artists were being given a platform and recognition within a larger markets. Fear we had our separate category of middle eastern art but it was at the at the time. Now everything is more digital but you still. These live sales but it still was part of this larger international recognition. Let's say of the middle eastern artists. And it's definitely an important aspect when you are an artist. Not only to consider local regional but ultimately international exposure. So i think now given online and the digital enhancements thought. It has the accessibility of finding an artist in yemen. For instance is actually easier if you're able to have the right platform to do it for instance as this. Let's say through midi star. I've now been receiving a lot art of artists from areas that i would have never been exposed to before. I've had an artist in baghdad. In elaine actually that because of the online and what i've been able to build this platform it's been able to attract artists and creatives that i would never necessarily have met but i do to get back to your point of building a market for an artist and building. A platform is really essential. I think the traditional gallery model is changing where you have artists that can showcase their works in their own instagram and be able to attract interest in their works or potential sales. Just through that some. That's very hard slog to be your own brand ambassador and run your social media profiles. It's yeah it's an industry in in of itself quite honestly as far as i'm concerned okay now to the thing that really fascinates me christie's i have known of auction houses. Probably since. I was ten years old. Because i used to see them and hear about the. My parents used to get the catalogs all this kind of stuff. How does it work. I have no idea i've never. I don't think i've ever even had a conversation with somebody that works at an auction house. So please start me from. Stupidity the basics. How does it work okay. So as an auction house. We have normal in traditional times the live auction. It's forever wants to be you have mentioned catalogs. Everyone remembers the catalog days of what you have it in the mail. You look through you flip through and essentially as a specialist. I am part of a greater team that works on helping to source works for the sales as well as alternately selling during the sale and so stop with step that part right there source work now. Because i've heard stories and this is why like really have a fascination with it obviously collectors who own prominent pieces and stuff are the ones that you want. Because they're going to bring in the most amount of money and of course in the end zone about money. So that's the that's one aspect but i've heard stories about living artists also participating in secondary the sales and things like this like is it only collectors or collections. That are sort of your sources or do you source for directly from living artists. I mean the senate in the past. And we've heard these examples damian her sin and all of these artists that have actually done it. We don't traditionally do not normally we work with collectors or galleries or it's it's essentially through the secondary or potentially primary market that we do but it's never really driven through artists. So then how do you choose so like. Let's say you get a selection of a four hundred different pieces that could be put into your Auction how do you say okay. These are worthy of being. The auction in these are not worthy of being an auction. Like anything there's trends and there are certain areas or regions that people are looking out right now right now. What is something. People are looking into the global south. I mean it's across the board at by that had highlighted. There's a lot looking into north africa. Morocco tunisia these areas. So you know it's the auctions is part of a wider ecosystem of the art scene that is fueled and reinforce both by commercial non activities. There's institutional show of an artist like zaid's at the tate. Modern it'll be a very important speaking point in aspect as to why people wanna collect works from this artists because it helps ground men within a wider internationally recognized institution which will essentially give value both intrinsic and extrinsic to the work. Why people would want to buy it ultimately if you're buying a work auction house of course you like it. You wanna love the work but it's also attended of its insurance and assets. You want to invest in this to see that ultimately it will be in the long term value. Not all the time i mean. Essentially we are still very young emerging market. That needs a lot of time. But you would like if you're buying a work of art from santa gyp in modern artist. You're you're assured that what you're paying for has strong value because whether it's recent prices but also in looking at an educating yourself and looking at like what egyptian modern art was to the scene how that has impacted informed the foundation that say of modern arab same way that iraq has or or lebanon. These are communities in these very important artists that have been well integrated or that. Were working alongside many important artists in paris in london at the turn of the century in these modern art circles so your role which by the way. Tell me your exact position title these days. I'm an associate specialist in christie's in dubai and they're middle eastern modern contemporary art department we work alongside the post war and contemporary art team. And just recently. We've merged categories of twenty twenty one impressionist modern postwar contemporary art which actually was a language. We were speaking beforehand because our middle eastern team encompasses modern which could be early twentieth century up until today so we speak both languages. I can understand impressionist modern specialists as well as postwar contemporary were well integrated within the teams that are obviously internationally speaking in terms of working to source works only helping in the mid eastern category but assisting other categories for works their sales given that dubai is a hub in terms of clients who might have works from different categories that they're interested in speaking with other specialists so i could also be not only working with the middle eastern team but almost as a conduit between these other departments so many things brought up in there all right so when you okay so let's go back to the. Let's say you okay. So you had the hundred pieces that could have been in the sale for that season. You've had it down to at how many pieces end up. In your general season dependency could be fifty sixty seventy but at the same time we had over one hundred hundred twenty two parts to a sale before i was there but since i've been normally under a hundred yeah it it varies. We'll see like okay because me. I'm all i see are the press releases about the things sell for hundreds of millions of dollars but those are more or less. Those are the rarity in the auction houses. Right i mean it's you know you'll have like ninety things in in a sale that are going to sell for moderate price points and then you might have that one may be two that self outrageous points or is it might getting it. Wrong it depends. You always have star work or two in the sale. That's a highlight piece. You know we. We had our auctions in november and did very well on to works. Broke the record for some alabi for close to half a million. Us dollars and He moroccan artist. Both of those works. Did well and it was a great highlight. Other works it also. Well they could go above the high estimate. So essentially toback tracks you understand when we consign a work we speak with. Let's say the collector work and we re provide a value for that work which should say is hundred two hundred and fifty thousand pounds that we decide to price the work and we put the work in the sale. The work is part of. Let's say sixty work sale and we help market the work we have digital e catalog. We have it but cena viewing room. We help the storytelling now. A the work which i think online has it presented a very unique opportunity to really dig deep in an share further texts and details about the work because when we have the fiscal auction catalog. There was always say a page and limit. We had said here to a certain page limit. Now we have full reign to help share more details about the work which has actually been helpful for us. How those evaluations done. So you know. I mean a collector comes to you. Say hey i want to sell this piece. They could probably say. Hey i paid this much for it back then. I believe it's up to you now. Valued at this but like how do you come to that. I've always wondered like those minimum bids and the know the estimated. The amount of money or do is it the collector that sort of dictates that or is it the experts at christie's dictate that it's a mix of different factors for us value a work. Of course you want to know the purchase price that the collector paid for the work. You want to know the primary market for the artist if it's a living artist or even a deceased artists in terms of what their normal. Their price points are from galleries. And you also want to take into account. Recent sales of what recent comparible works are selling in the past sales across the board across all different auction houses taking advantage. The you know the economic situation at the time or getting a feel for over all the appetite of what people would be paying for of the work so walk me through a day in your life. The life of a. I forgot your full title because it was ridiculously long just bachelor. Thank you dan. Life of an associate specialist at christie's what do you do sit around and have coffee chat with martos. Maybe a few collectors. And i wish the artists part of it but the artist is like after thieves because my normal interactions are rarely with artists for christie's Mideast art life. I deal a lot with we. We work with building the sales reviewing works. We could consider doing valuations. There is a little. there's different aspects to how auction houses function. We have our auctions that we do. We have private sales. We do valuations for clients. Who let's say have a multi category valuation and we provide package valuation for the client. So the normal day in the life is never the same. it's constantly running on international time zones so it can get pretty interesting in terms of of the day to day. I'm constantly plugged into london which luckily is now at three hour. Time difference but london new york even the west coast in the us also even sometimes hong kong. So it's it's a constant roller coaster of dealing with different time zones. Speaking with coins about works you know speaking internally with the team's understanding gaining ings inside of the market meeting of course with gallery owners going to fare is normally and doing field trips to these different areas in normal circumstances before kovin was extremely important the different micro markets or the different regions going to battle. It's going to istanbul going to cairo. Kuwait's behind these are all places that essentially post quarantine were really really important in terms of of gaining insight into. What's happening that that are in these different countries. There is no scalpels my days. It's very much in terms of if i have to first of all i. I run on international clock because speaking with clients and colleagues that are all over the world. This is my life. It's a roller coaster of dialogue. That's you know from london to paris. Hong kong new york los angeles and all between i do a lot of time of obviously a very important part is preparing for upcoming auctions working on different projects that were doing with the teams working. On let's say valuations or private sales. It's non-exhaustive in terms of what i'm sharing to. Its there is. There's so many different products that were doing. but of course auctions. We always have that. That goal of when auctions will be right now or upcoming sale will be in october. So we're planning on building for the october sale right now of course with other different related projects. So that's normal day. In in life there is a lot of different overlapping busy angles at all angles. Okay but wait so you said. Your last sale was in november. And you're saying you're working towards the october so you're so one sale for you could take up to a year to prepare for or longer. Well we had initially. When i started had to sales per year and now we've changed in terms of changing our strategy. What we're doing and having right now one sale per year with different projects that we're going to be working on. I'm going to ask us to question. Based on the idea that i'm ed joe schmo in the general public and i see like let's say the salvator mundi whatever you know selling then there's always this thing of like oh it sold for this much. And there's this sell this auction fee this nature of this auction fee. Now i wanna start with. I understand where that comes from. I get it so like i am not questioning it but i would imagine that a lot of people in the world or like what. The fuck is this like twenty percent. It's added onto the end of the whole thing. Do you have a way that you could sort of. Explain why that exists for people that maybe don't understand it in a way. People come to christie's because we have accessibility to clients that they might not have the ability to sell. The work were marketplace at the end of the day so people entrust their works with us in the sense that we will market it to the right targeted people we will. We will presents it in a very beautiful way. We have our e catalogs. It normally are physical catalogs. We promote discuss the works. We helped give it value so that it's like this reinforcing idea of collectors and all people involved dennis. It's it's like a communal effort to help build the market especially of a very emerging market to build and grow a platform for the market so in terms of why the premium would be added. That's a way of looking at it. Were helping in terms of marketings the work and finding targeted buyer on a specific date during me like you can be assured that by consigning in this it you will hope that the work does sell because of course there are times when the work doesn't for different reasons factors in pray but for less you. You know that at that time that is when the work will sell beyond that assist also like you will have overhead. You have to pay to have designers design these online catalogs. They have to pay your salary that you have offices that you have to pay for an air conditioned and do all these things to your business and if the sale prices the sale price you still. It's like you still have to make some money and you can't take it out of the sale price or people won't appreciate that so i get it. Don't you know like i'm on your side. But a lot of people. I talked to her. Like what is this extra thing i'm like it's extra thing it's just a thing that's there. It's the price of doing. Business is really what it is middle. East art all right. So the first thing that i when i think about your work in the mid east so you're from new york you simply have an interest in. Let's call it middle eastern art. You ended up in the uae. Why the uae like there are some other great historical rich cultures in the middle east. Why the uae Sort of focus of this. Well it was. It was to be honest. I spoke with professor a professor. When i was right before i was about to go and i told her my dream was to work in the market and i actually years ago wanted to always be a specialist at an auction house and i told her about it. I was supposed to live in morocco and she ended up. Saying it's better to go to the by. It's the hub at least the market of the region and you can always go to morocco but in terms of understanding the greater market up. Play go to buy so i did. And that's where i am. But i didn't go to discharge because the only school affiliated with the uae was a us in charge. And so that's how it'll happen. But i wanted to share another aspect of what mideast starts is because the digital component and how curated my stories and how i've cultivated a personality. I find now through the many projects and the curated posts that i've done on the instagram south have a website component. People really feel like they know me. It's probably the same way as you when you listen to your podcast. As i've done you feel like you have a sense of who this person is in for me. People who. I have started to be in contact with recently. They feel like they're like we love what you do. We we know. Exactly what fuels you your storytelling. You're creative in your crofty. And and how i run. Many start is essentially through storytelling. And i have a lot of different posts. That i do. Featuring artists from the modern times and old archival photographs helping to educate inform narrative in an archive of the older art scene. I do studio visit features shown artists in their studio with a quote from the artist by did a big quarantine series during the whole pandemic sharing just artists in their of whatever they wanted to share. I do post that are combining middle eastern western artists finding parallels visually and conceptually in their works. It fuels itself. You know it's like constant archive. That's building on my current research. That i'm doing my time at christie's to get back actually helps build a foundation for my knowledge of our history of the region understanding. Who are the most important artists and collectors who have helped be patrons for the artists both regionally and internationally so this has helped form a basis for me to really be critical and understand what is good. Art both from our world from iran the diaspora. And it's really important has forms a good way for me to identify input feeders out as to which artists that we should really be looking into which artists that were traveling abroad. Well informed of the international art scene but also addressing very immediate local concerns of their respective communities in damascus in casablanca in baghdad in dubai since the sixties seventies you brought up a point that i have been harping on since i was teaching in the uae. With when i had my students i used to. I my students were all male murad. He's so just a basis for those listeners. I always had an issue with the fact that when they put their work out into the public they would define it. They would self defined it as muslim female art and so i had this question because you just said what makes good art and but yet it i feel like and this is not again not specific just in the middle east because people are doing this all over the world where they are saying. I may queer american artists. Or i may whatever you giving these little subcategories of things like. Why is it that like. Let's say in this case because we're talking to you. Middle eastern art needs that additional thing saying not only. Is this good art. But it's good middle eastern art for me when you read and research a lot of these older artists from the region. They did not want to be categorized. They did want to understand. Maybe what forms the basis of art from their regions understanding. How do they blend their experience. In formative years studying in power sir. London and coming back and trying to apply their cultural and indigenous roots within the work that they're producing that might also be of language. That could be interpreted internationally. These were the debates that were going on when these artists returns when they came back to beirut or to baghdad to cairo. It's interesting because i mean many. These artists writing reading were very open minded and did not want to be boxed and put in a box of. I wanna be labeled this way at the same time though why. Let's say with a category like us in middle eastern art. We need in a way to help build cultivate the regional art scene. And you cannot just do it from zero to hundred and throw in these artists that have not let's say had a sustained yet continued market within the region. And so that's why let's say. The middle eastern art category is so important right now to help build on you know. That's that's reinforcing fostered by growing seen within the region. It's tough not It's not a light conversation because it's not. This is not a conversation at this point. It's turned kind of dark. Yeah i know but it's the bill. Why because i'm current i. It's not easy not view. It's not easy like it's not easy but the tough questions are the most interesting questions. How do you take something that is sort of self segregating like it could be anybody. It could be a berlin artist. Norwegian artist african artists sort of self segregate saying. I'm an african. You know what our ugandan this kind of thing so they. I have this issue of like i okay. Let me take it back step. I have this issue that says the arts world is already a niche thing in the grand scheme of the whole world. Then within that niche of just people who either produce or collect or interested in the art then we start segregating ourselves even more so only people either producer make asian art or african art or americans art whatever and then even within that we even get more segregated like feminist art or black art. Or whatever lay an i personally feel that that is detrimental to the art world as a whole because we're already small and the what were segregating ourselves. Even more i would love to see us. Try to simply find a way to be more on merit of like. It's good art period. I don't care if it's good art from europe or asia or africa. It's good it skillful. it's quality the concept search. Whatever but we seem to be adding more layers of separation by giving all these additional like now like i have to define myself as like what a assists man. I don't even know what the thing is. But you know they're all these extra things i feel like. It's hurtful to the art world to continue to do this kind of stuff. But i'm a utopian. Kind of person like i want us all to get along. That's my two cents. It's interesting but i find my post of combining middle eastern and western has really been exciting for viewers. But also me because it's allowing me find commonalities in the aesthetic. Maybe they stay studied at the same school. They're inspired by the same artists. They're speaking the same language. I would literally put these posts and as i do the couponing Tie out always. I would always start with the western artists. I always do because in a way of saying like you should meet him. Not yet tie should meet hint. I want to ground it in a way. It's saying this is admittedly sonars that you should look at declaring. I do a lot with music at the end of the day as i said earlier. I'm an american. And i cannot negate my american culture. And if i'm listening to a song with bob dylan or crosby stills nash it will always remind me of the fact that i am from new york and when i'm looking at a work for instance i i posted a picture of egyptian ernest have been neither and i thought michael jackson right away. I'm not going to try and force myself to think of something else. Because when i look at it thinking of dancing and grooving to beat michael jackson and playing disco in my apartment and feeling like i'm a kid again on the beach with my family. There's a deeper feeling sensation to these posts. That i'm doing particularly the eastern and western. Because for the first time. I feel like i'm part of the conversation because it could be really difficult not coming from the region being an outsider on the On the periphery. And how it's been five years living here now. Most how do i feel relative. How do i feel related in part of this when i am not from the region so to get back to it. It's a very emotional feeling to post these. Which would sounds crazy. I mean you post something and it's it's like a it's like a very meditative process. Were i post it on. And i listened to the song afterwards that i played and it it gets me really emotional issues me really in a different headset. Where it's for the first time combining both worlds and people comment on the song they love it and and normally ironic announced many of the songs that i choose produced right around the same time that the artwork was produced could be in the sixty seventies eighties. So that's a recent avenue or direction. That i started to look into and as i said earlier even with many star it's doing a lot of critical analysis and review of modern art from the region. And so. I did this whole corn series. And i did this. Whole right up on Tune who was actually in jail in the fifties in egypt. And i felt like i was in my own prison cell during the quarantine. I talked about hasson. Should he and his performance works and i felt like i was doing this. Conceptual fluxes inspired performance in my old apartment looking. Not all of the floor boards. And i felt like i was measuring myself. And so what attracts me now. More than ever is feeling a part of the conversation. Feeling like what my sensation and what i sense matters and my participation in this appreciation of the work whether it's through music through writing i- creative writer. I have books that i've written personally sharing this. I sometimes feel like. I'm internalizing an artist deep down because the girl that was creating miniature books when i was a kid is still the same today. If i'm stressed i create books like many books. Nice okay two quick questions. The do you have your own art collection ironic enough only of artwork that artists have gifted me nothing yet which is coming a good point because i do feel like i wanna start. Investing made work on paper something small which i do feel i. I want to invest in a more comfortable because it a very intimate process. It's a very delicate material. That i would like to more or less. The price point is always a bit less than welcome canvas so it has its. It's but there is a sense of intimacy when you have a work paper. I'm i believe that works on. Paper is the sort of the the entry level for starting to collect. Because it's it's more affordable in general you can get something from a bigger named artist that That is a better price point. Yeah i mean. Same of photography versus like paintings or sculptures. Things also works on paper and tree level. Kind of stuff nuts and bolts. I wanna hear okay. So you are a fulltime employees at christie's but but you have this little call it at this moment. Passion project of mideast art. How do you find the time or the funding to be able to pull that off because a lot of people in the world you know they have great ideas but it's being able to allocate or choose to put that time in that energy into it. What's your rationale slash funding model for that the secret recipe. I think since getting my fulbright and being here all my own having to schedule my days when no day was the same building something from the ground up being creative about. It has helped me. I think with the fulbright. And with the quarantine i almost just reverted back to my fulbright itself. I was able to be on my own and being a room and figure out what i wanted to do and map out projects that i wanted to do interviews with artists. I wanted to do mapping out collaborations with different our institutions. Doing maybe podcast series. Or i did it with the embassy in washington. Dc a artists interview four-part discussion with interviewing artists. During this time. I'm very curious. And how i find time and as i started earlier it is my passion matthew and so i will always make time for it. It's not something that you know. it's like another job. It's it's part of me. And the friends i may in the people i surround myself with are part of this our community in one way or another. They appreciate arts. They are artists curators. So there is no right way of telling you how i'm scheduling my mideast art. If i feel like i wanna share to my audience. What i'm feeling all craft a story. There is no. I wish it was easier said than done. And i've tried. It said mondays wednesdays and fridays. I'm going to do this at this hour. And i'm going to know like it's there is so much chaos to the days especially getting out of this instill semi quarantine. But i will be honest. There was a point. It was a rough patch after i got back. My father had go videos doing okay now. But i really sought connection dialogue with people and i started to post questions on my instagram literally. What is missing in the art world or what are your top three works that you'd want to invest in in whatever it was it was interesting question you're on you wanna have dinner with an artist who's deceased or living. Who would you want. And the amounts of interaction people really engaged with the content and it was interesting in. So i'm at this point. Just experimenting with what gap needs to be filled. What's missing in art scene. Maybe it's critical discourse or questioning or am. I doing this right or yeah as the perfect example i mean people the people connection in asking these basic questions that are not being addressed and so i want to help form a community of people both from the region and internationally that are also asking the same questions all right. So what are the future plans. I want to build. Further in mideast star one interact with artists in start speaking in having discussions of artists and artists together and be part of the creative process in actually feel it can part of the conversation when artists are producing their works and being part of their inner process. And helping. i wanna be. I wanna be in studio digitally now when they're pro producing art. I wanna be part of that conversation. Mind you it's a very intimate demand you know studio space is a very private space but i have been blessed with connections with artists that have invited me or feel comfortable with me being part of this very private process of producing arts so going forward i wanna build on these conversations with helping artists meet other artists or helping artists. Collectors are helping artists meet other artists around the world and helping widen their exposure and their understanding and they're building a network in a community of people that are interested in learning about artists from the region. It's all based on the focal point of of the regional scene and then sharing this both in terms of the contemporary practices as well as the modern art history. Which is something that needs a lot of work in tender loving care and helping share and showcase the breadth and diversity of the regional. Modern artistry here. The reason why. I ask. Because i remember at one point there was a conversation with you about like making a book of the history of the arts in the uae. And i and. I'm wondering whether or not since that conversation which was many years ago at this point. The whether it's transitioned. Is it more about videos and recorded conversations versus some sort of tangible book product. Of course the book has been on my mind since the first time we spoke. But i've gone through many iterations of when i want this to published. And when when do i feel my research. My outlook and insight is mature enough to indoctrinated within this book. Right now and as we all are transitions a digital world. I feel right now. My preferred medium is posts online. Because it's an easier way to get it across rather than wait to publish a book. I'm not negating the fact that a book is on my radar. But i do feel right now. I'd be more keen to consider like a- digital e book that's a smaller book verses doing a massive research book right now. I just didn't as i said i just don't feel i feel like every crossing now is opening up ten more questions or in interests that i would be interested in looking at. What if you spoke with me. Five years ago i would have wanted to just highlight my interviews with artists from the uae than it evolved to artists from the gulf then the region now. I'm interested in building. Bridges between artists from asia in syria and syria to london to berlin to new york to like it's changing in terms of what is interesting me and as i said earlier. What's very important. Is that sense of feeling relevancy and part of that dialogue. So could you give me three names of contemporary artists. That you think are noteworthy or that. You're watching these days. Three artists that i would recommend people follow made the abdullah emirati artists space in. They'll be. She does a lot with painting also mixed media and tries to channel the inner subconscious inner fantasies within her works. She's running with a bunch of other artists abi bates fifteen which is like an artist. Incubator grown to help build in bridge. The gap with artists connecting with other artists may jordan nassir palestinian lea- palestinian polish artists. That is dealing with embroidery in. His work is based in new york and is utilizing the palestinian trees stitch. The cross stitch that you actually stitch in his works i did visit with him and it was really interesting to be there instead of paints and paint tubes it was embroidery stitches and fabric and he actually helped fund a lot of palestinian women in palestine and helping to produce these beautiful stitches in fabric in his work so that they're beautiful pieces and there is you know sometimes he explores you know they almost remind me of that ted at nonni. Lebanese artists in the horizon landscape works that she does a a very important modern lebanese artist semi habby. Of course she's one of a modern palestinian artist who is one of the most important in abstract painting and she's based in new york. I've done a lot of studio visits with her. So she's she's an important one to to take a look at marvelous last question. I ask everybody some advice for the next generation. I guess her artist career advice. Keep practicing every single day. Like an artist thought designates time for art making sparingly throughout the week from my conversations Learning about those. It's it's impulsive heart of you being an artist and so in every way i just had a conversation with artists just before this. They scribble thoughts on on receipts. They're thinking about work in their dreams in their daydreaming. And it's it's part of their life. It's like a job you know and so treat it seriously as if it were your job so practice everyday question your and seek critique from other people. Don't box yourself in. There is a fine line between boxing. Yourself in and then showing others and then being of course influenced by others but there is also a very important. Parts of having critical analysis of works from people who assay are well informed. Who could look your work and say a quick constructively critical comments. That will help you think differently about your work. So don't boxster self hyphen marvelous. Thank you very much. thank you in. The arts world is a marathon more than a sprint and oftentimes a lot of things. That seem like they're not so important. Actually are incredibly important leader. And that's what i'm here to ask you for. We've learned that star ratings and reviews on the podcast platform through. Its you're listening are very powerful and influential as to getting us more listeners and more listenership so greatly appreciate it if you would take a second give a star rating. Give us a comment. It could be something nice. He could be something critical. That's fine were good with critical feedback. You hate my stories. A- get it. that's fine. Some of them are really bad but by doing that what you do. Is you end up making it so that we will have more listeners. We have more listeners than we get more guests. We get more guest. You learn more information and knowledge so this wheel's benefit you directly if you would just take a second and give us a star rating or you and we would greatly appreciate it because it will help all of this entire ecosystem so thank you very much. This podcast is supported in part by any ea grant from iceland liechtenstein and norway in an effort to work together for a green competitive and inclusive europe. We would also like to thank our partners hunt kastner in prague czech republic and kunst center any inorganic in norway links to e grants and our partner organizations are available in the show notes or on our website. Wise fool pod dot com.

uae christie morocco london middle east jeff koons Susie sikorsky jfk airport new york fordham university of new york joe james dubai manhattan umbrella of middle eastern art Dr shuts mckee Mona judd mohammad qasem Hamad brahim paris christie
Reframing The Black Image. Pioneers of The Past in Collaboration with Stance and A Vibe Called Tech

Gucci Podcast

43:26 min | 6 months ago

Reframing The Black Image. Pioneers of The Past in Collaboration with Stance and A Vibe Called Tech

"Hello and welcome back to the gucci podcast today. We present a collaboration episode by a vibe tech and stance podcast inspired by the north face and gucci collection. Pioneers of the past is a celebration of four talents to a remapping and rethinking how the black images presented in fine and contemporary art. Welcome to pioneers of the past. Especial stance takes made in partnership with vibe coup tech the no face. Pinky collaboration tired of a lack of representation of black people in our exhausted by the narratives of suffering surrounding are rare appearances in paintings and photography fed up of it being backward when it comes to looking blackwoods. Well you're not alone. Settle down and get comfortable and get ready to be inspired because this program is for you. We'll bring you the new forces that accumulating making art that challenges the pallid status quo. They're redefining who gets to choose view. And critique the black image tearing up the orthodoxy each in their own way is inspiring new ways of seeing they are pioneers in remapping and rethinking the place of the black image and how is presented in art and coach. Let's meet them from cambridge. England is alive king kobe. He's challenging the academy her instagram of black history of art. I'm a student history student at the university of cambridge. But i will. Sir launched the page a black history of this year on it. i highlight the overlooked. Black artists thinkers citizens from history from florida usa. Renata chilies whose building in extraordinary archive of black images at blackhawk of dot co redefining who chooses the images preserved and celebrated i wanted to deeper into storytelling and just working through images and just fascinated by the ways in which we can story. Tell the black experience in black way of live throughout the year. It's it's a beautiful community from verona. Italy the amani. An italian ghanaian medical student artist with a passion for finding echoes between the african and european image a student at the university of via but have critical interest in africa. Contemporary art for me like africa. Contemporary rock is a point of entry to find a baseball belonging with different realities across the globe. And in london paris orsay bon the curator in african art working to portray multidimensional images of the black experience the moment curator of international artists tate. Modern in london tate. I was an independent curates involved. African international lot mobutistes and. That's really the work that i put into the tate so i was brought in as an international rates to oversee the african physicians committee which is a committee that analyses tate to financially support an african artists through the acquisitioning of works and then expanding collection. We start the program without to office. Tes separated by the atlantic both building visual archives that are challenging established preconceptions of black images in the digital space both driven by compulsion to challenge the lazy thinking that dominates the art world in relation to the depiction of black people. This is particularly true of eliah. Who's history of our. Instagram exploded onto the scene earlier last year. She told me how it will began the well. I i started in february and it really kind of took off in june. When i did take the great woman autists instagram page Of when it like exposure started gaining seventy photos. I started out of like my frustration towards the lack of black representation. My coolest i knew going into it. The history was very traditional very european eurocentric to study just as a degree. But i don't think. I realize just how little we would be paying attention to black artists so in my first year. I didn't actually look at a single black artist which i didn't realize until i saw the page so all the all the black figures were kind of represented in very subordinate roles will kind of serving white figures. And i guess that's because there's the paintings that you see. There's the paintings. Studied all the canonize paintings that show a black figures as secondary white figures Which is also what you get when you go into. Most museums like the national gallery and like known modern art museums. Like i had the idea in my head from. I like something called a black history of art and the name is very crucial. Because it's not. I'm not saying this is black history of art and then there's regular history saying this is everything is black about history so everybody kind of started because i was doing a contemporary akos at uni and this was the first time that i had been exposed to black onto the so relooked. Some office in america. glenn ligon lorna simpson. Just kind of like icons of like american and british. Who black and it was served for the first time. Inspiring to me to be studying like off that was created by black people because always in my head. I hadn't realized because i'm not keeping tabs autism studying. But i hadn't actually had the experience of seeing auto studying in detail audrey by people so because i enjoyed it so much and that was probably the moment at which i was enjoying my my degree the most when i had the opportunity to look it up by your august of the same color as me. I was enjoying it so much. And i was kind of upset about the fact that i knew that the other papers i would doing the end to come wouldn't really have any representation so i wanted to kind of continue out and that's why i started the page Rinat shalit's currently lives in florida. After many years in chicago. She began sharing images on tumbler. In two thousand thirteen and all five evolved into the website black archives dot co. It's instagram has more than three hundred and fifty thousand followers and it's a treasure trove of images. I asked her to explain how she goes about creating her work. Polling from the archives are already available and show that's part of that process of uncovering and exploring because i so like the images. Are there available through different archives and library across the internet and the hard part or the the the dirty. The dirty were cray is fifteen through those images you know sifting through those libraries and archives and pulling out those moments i just really speak to you and then just sharing them. I mean there's really no rhyme or reason as to why. I may choose a photo or series of photos or a home video but i think they all just play along than the larger part of just bringing this experience making the festival in a way that we can just kind of happen to that memory. Your happened to that to that resource. Did you just ford insecure. Let's no more about your curatorial. Johnnie and who framing the black image. Tell me about why that was so crucial. It was a very natural organic process for me. You know. I don't have a degree in Curatorial practice or an art degree or anything of that nature And so. I feel like the way that i approach it. It's outside of academia It's outside of You know your your typical institution but it's it's assessable. It makes it accessible to everyone. And so the idea or the goal behind the way that i place an image through memory and tapping into that through my personal lived experience Collective memory as a community as the black community as the black collective. Despite the different poss- renata an ally on the same mission to find and center black imagery in the visual arts and bring it to the masses in allies work. A recurring theme is an interest in the models. Used in fine art no sitters. He or she explains how their stories reveal hidden histories with burst of the blocks that writes about which is actually the name. Oh who they are what they did. So i just kind of speculate on what their role could have been what i can find in books on the internet And so i guess it is kind of reframing. We'll kind of shifting the frame if you like of shifting the focus especially when there's also white figure in it so like for instance money's olympia. If i was talking about it on my page would only talk about the made. Who has called. Her name was received discovered to be laura and i would just kind of focused on her and her role as an artist's model and who she might have been and what we know about so i think it is. I'm definitely trying to sort of shift. The focus on say these figures who ignored these are figures we don't studied in on the curriculums and our degrees and let's talk about them. Let's let's talk about their role in the painting. A painting money's olympia. You have like the made in the background. And she's sobbing the white woman who's lying on the bed and she's presenting some flowers to. She's kind of in this painting to act like chiaroscuro which is like the light and the dog so she's like sort of presenting like an an opposite to enhance the whiteness of the figure. That's lying on the bed. And i think that's probably the extent which out of spoken about the extent to which election might have discussed the made for me. I feel like this is the center. And i want to shift the focus to this. I'm trying to marginalize them. I'm not trying to say look at this like figure on the outskirts segments. Ferguson this person what challenges do you think he you face stateful of interested in So because obviously most of what i'm doing is on instagram. The biggest thing has been trying to present like a view of the paintings. That is unbiased. Because i'm the only person writing mc options. So i wanna put out a all this information. That is just my opinion. So i feel like finding a balance between just talking about painting in a way. That isn't just projecting my viewpoint onto it but also still being able to express my opinions always put in brackets like in my opinion So i think that has been the hottest thing with the posts. Probably the thing that always comes up with paintings of black people is that everyone seems to assume that the suffering sir it's always it's always linked to the black person's race a not linked to the individual person and That is kind of frustrating because on the one hand yes like i always wanted to consider what it is to be a black person in the world that we live in the context of race in the button of racism and everything but I feel like it's a bit in our to constantly look at black figures in paintings and always just like think about the like suffering. You know what i mean like. Sometimes that can be it can be about individual person and an expression doesn't necessarily mean like a a non smiling figure doesn't mean that the figures deeply unhappy and it must be because of racism. Will something like that. I often tends to be very reductive when people interpret paintings of black people in like because of this. This context social political context. This is why this person looks like this but actually everyone lives in individual lives. I don't know if you've seen that Yet watches shirt the tate britain. It's incredible paintings like that. Figaro paintings of black people but it's just people like sort of enjoying the company of other black people or don standing at the beach like just complete just like living as a human being Tied to any kind of idea of suffering this challenge of not only finding then interpreting images of authentic. Black experience is one. Renata is familiar with she talks about how choice. An interpretation should be approached with confidence and clear vision. Because now is the time honestly. I feel like now. We're in a place where we can be more visible. And so is we're reimagining these spaces we can create our own rules right and being sentinel about the ways in which we are five our stories and and be intentional about the way the we we need to document our stories so that the future doesn't look as it does right now. We can be intentional about the way that we want to see ourselves from the future. One of the biggest challenges defy one to be inclusive or show an image of. You know something that we know exists or has existed but that images just does not appear in the archives from me to you know dig out bring to light and share with a larger community the way that we can move around that. Is you know occasionally. I'll do you know an open call for for images and submissions and hope believe those missions you know we tap into story that are outside of You know the digital library. The program we all star guests to talk through an image that encapsulated their approach on. What's important to them. Aligarh chose a picture that marked the beginning of all its support portrait of modeling formerly known as portray of a knee graphs. This is also the first painting that i posted on my pager black history of the foundations of my like love history called portrait of madeline. And it's a painting the love and it's actually a white artists called mary. You mean benaroya and it depicts a black woman who they recently. I think the lou. The traces of the news recently discovered that her name was a marlin. I'm the figure is presented sitting down. And she has. I'm sort of head wrapped around the head and she's wearing a white dress and her her right. Breast is like bed and the only other callers kind of apart from white and sort of beige of the background is blue. Red am which kind of speaks to the patriotism of the trick colo in france french flag. This painting really got me into history of itself. Because i spoke out to at school for for a competition and i was thinking about the amazing and this is where the whole citizen obsession comes from fascinated by this. I wanted to find out more about a on also school. There was speculation that she could have been A slave turned and tons southern. And i was thinking about how she probably didn't have much saying how she was presented and she was more like treated as an object by the artist. I was just thinking about tension between portraiture. And i'm just kind of making this painting of person with the psychology of whom you're not trying to engage with so at the time i thought that the figures represented as very kind of dignified and elegant was kind of shocked to see a black figure ascension this way renounce choice of imagery was gordon parks segregation story. Like aligarh she's interested in reaching beyond the way we are conditioned to understand the position of blackness within an image. You know that collection of work by gordon part fish it's greg taking me Because it you know a lot of his work prior to And thereafter as black and white and so we get really get to see these in color and the color is vivid color you know and to be an alabama or anywhere in the south A black man You know this body of work. It just really speaks to me And especially with me being from the south you know. I was born and raised in the south before relocating to chicago for me heinz and so even join this work. You know away from you know being on you know i can always go back to these images and go back to to these photographs this this body of work and feel home. It feels familiar. And i don't know he's just he's just incredible photographer and and Actually you just saying that just made me think because at i the image is really striking so there is a woman a african american women holding a baby not cheese the nanny. And then there's a white woman Ashim the baby's mother cetane so next to her. But then it's also as much kind of segregated. See but i e oh right. This story in imported seuss about putin parks kind of getting there. I and she's being the person taking the show. Yeah and and so. I mean we do see those moments within that segregate within the segregation story. We see the moments of pinot them sitting in a bus station. I believe that's the photograph that you're you're referring to. And she's just holding the baby and the woman of you know looking off in the air. You don that that photo it you know it's embedded in my memory but there's so many other photos within that collection where it's you. We know that we're in a segregated time in in a segregated space but you know it still captures the everyday black moment so there is a photo within that theory where there are two women. You know standing outside on either side of a clothesline. Just you know talking in hanging up clothes. And you know the sheets are hanging and and and and falling with the win there's colorful and vibrant and that's the part that really sticks with me because i think about my childhood and in growing up where my grandmother would go outside and hang up. She couldn't enclosed those line. You know and so it's always about bringing it back to something that's familiar to me. And the so so wonderful pinchas well of a couple of a couple sitting down Flowers in the show and they put a very very hazy safer. It's so bright red and yet they're just relaxing imposing but then the pictures of children together bachelor white children. So yeah this is a huge or the but as you were saying it's also just spent much you every day everyday images. Yeah tell me a little bit and finally why. Why despite sample to you. And why gordon i come back to it because it's like we we don't see these images like outside of this body of work where where do these images exists. And so. it's something that i'm always coming back to always referencing He's he's the master of his his craft. And even though i. I'm i'm not a photographer. I still thought he his work study. You know The ways in which he captured those moments In in the way that he he tells the story. So i may study the photograph a bit different from actual for but i feel like the message is clear you know and it's it's it. It reminds us that no matter where we are within this journey weather. I'm a curator. Or if i'm photographer That it's important to document you know not only for the moment you know as you know what he was doing but also for you know forced to reflect back on and or to you though the guy as we move forward to their work renato and allying bill places where the black image lives through itself rather than some kind of obstruction from the white gnome. Times have changed dramatically and is reflected in this revolution of agency from verona italy. Theo amount an italian ghanaian medical student in visual researcher with a passion for finding echoes between the african and european image of so called the the main where i find a great restaurants is Odd photographs especially a family album photographs of because like to me date narrate says of based formation especially here in italy. We don't have a lot of visual artist that tells the story of africa immigrants that came here and early nineties so the only way to a knowledge about this history and stories is through The photo albums. So i'm really interested in in that aspect and And of course talking about art in general elite being born and raised here today. Not heaven an approach account the not being exposed to black art. I tried to find a way to Rediscovered this courtrai maritimes saw. The project started by accident. Let's say so so i was starting for Our ideology exam saw was look a d- Xrays console of various patient. And in a moment of procrastination. I started to look at images of oz just to breath a bit and it started out. I guess at the end of two thousand seventeen when the new york times published a nautical talkin about Shimon goes And the article was accompanied by a photo by career may wins Which are called one of his photographs of the kitchen table series. So i i heard those two images and from that point on i just wanted to find other similarities that i could. I could remember both and there is a quad. I always liked to share By by the art critic. John berger the beginning of is booked way of seeing and his essays that The chide lok before it can speak and for me and like to me is towards the same in in doing this frenetic because at the beginning i didn't have i was just looking at images and find this echoes among the realities that were Apparently contrasted and a dan. I tried to to found to find a language to. The support is fraudulent and a help. I i found in building language I got it for the world's going off Conceptual artists nurena grady. Who made a series entitled. Ms. donated family album where she created dipped experiment Family family photos with our archaeological photos. Nifty and when asked in an interview about this about the series. She said that it was always a question of both end. Being a desk for subject has self show always tried to contain different Different point of views. And i think a was sounds true for me as well because in this project i tried to to show Visually this in. Between that. I live as desperate subject as a as a person of ghanaian origin born and raised in italy. Some some of the deputies Let's say can have A social media. Let's say so at an addis are more like visual visual. Play visual visual rhyme. So in this in this first one. I wanted to this a price by Underground montana and desfray scores in the Coming out the policy in mont of the photograph op-ed frisco is by a mexican photographer. Monroe cardio and i just love. Deep state we can say. The touch of the little chide Presumably have motto motto. That echoes the The way the the chide hosts tied to to the arm of his father. The title of the project is echoes goes agreements the title. I got the title from attacks by typical in his book. Blind spot in one of the texts in blind sport. Where does your called. A company's is photographs Context he was described a picture to berlin Into the foreground and equant the presence of a man in the bed. Ground next to a tree and the text as your code writes. The toolman were not aware of the echoes. The day created a social media the court the only stunt mongering visibily cuisine as soon of energy throughout the morning van gogh photography. Oh okay so. The raw thousands of such echoes agreements. Every minute almost all go unseen an almost not a recorded unless photography into veins so in a similar way i wanted to intubate in the history of art and record this this echoes in agreements that we can find and of course being a been of african descent being africa and living narrow. It toilets kind immediate for me to find this. This visual conversation among them might to coach for backgrounds. It really conveying As division conversation to connect your backgrounds but will searches for me looking at the they are speaking to each other radio beautifully. And you know the same very well which i elect by this one wet went. You speak a hand. all we have. One weather is a pitch set. She nina minus new reading to her daughter. And then there's another picture of a woman odor pitcher where she's reading Seven gem and there were so many conversations in this how'd you how'd you think immigration old Shape the portrayals black people in not the same vision is a great testimony of the blood presence in italy and we can find representations of black people dates back to thirteenth century. So those were presentation tells us the prince of black people in detailed sewing is not a novelty public sphere. View us sort of news new citizen new citizen that are trying to Be be part of the social landscape of the country. The biggest challenge for us here in italy is to find a link between these three different realities of the black friends in instantly in order to to affirm our rights because we are conducted different struggles because for instance the children off of immigrants are conducting the struggle for citizenship and whereas refuge that the migrants were crossing to see a doctor a struggle. Spaghetti those'll both Both trump was a undead that semantic umbrella of tiny but The the hughes slightly slightly different images along with elias monotonous collections are examples of how new cohort of black artists and curator's a resetting the parameters of how the black image is appreciated. It's not only about the image but also about new independent framework of understanding new rules. For how do we reach towards a new expression of black and dyersburg art. The includes everyone now. Bassett challenge someone. Who's been thinking about this. A lot is assayed on suit. I'll say has recently been appointed international curator at london's tate modern in order to make a story increase. One shouldn't kind of a full university -ality because what we so often see with in throughout history of odd is stories that we thought of as being universal and could be applied to any context one in fact universal because they were specific often to western culture and western ideas of the image in its representation because as you mentioned the african dyas four is so evolved and and actually no one three is like an actually artistically. Now i think a really claiming to hold space full that complexity and they don't want to have their what merely kind of shoot into an existing narrative. But they'd like to create new ones that reflect their own experiences. I'm so i think that in a way is possibly the most challenging thing about where we're at at the moment in terms of thinking about the african diaspora is that we know this experienced the be so multiple whether it's su- literature music are people artists rather expressing that in very specific ways and i think the role of curator then becomes more nuance. Because it's not enough just together. Those perspectives and say here is a show of athletic black perspectives on african perspectives. It's it's about thinking about why. Those perspectives important and how they might relate to one another or not. And i think that in my role at tate one of the things that i tried to push against quite often is the idea that You know african all of manila of in specific terms when in fact it speaks to lots of berry traditions as much about you know african religious and spiritual issues as they all of the traditions of that. Say a western abstract art of all the deal specifically with ideas of gender. So i think there were so many interesting dialogues to be around this. And i think the role of the curator is really to kind of complicate those dialogues and push it further absolutely and you taught in. You said the kind of narrative surrounding blackheart. Let's say and the black image. How do you think it's changed since she started work. And your curatorial practice. Have you seen a bit of a shift. I think it absolutely has shifted in the sense. That when i was studying for my muscles in history of all that was very much sense that if you wanted to undertake serious dissertation subject it had to be something that already had autism oracle importance and often what was deemed important. Were let's say art histories that had been defined both by the european the american academies so there wasn't a huge space full blackness all at throw dice orrick representation on. I think that that was in a way. I appointed frustration among almost pecans. Something to kind of work against and what i found myself doing is trying to connect multiple histories for instance about the early french avant garde and what was cold at the time negro failure which is kind of friendship god's fixation on the black audie and say later representation ulta black figure by black garters. So what does it mean to have those two perspectives kind of rub up against each other. and in. What ways did they reveal things about Desire race sexuality. And that i think very much still prevalent in our society so it was i think about trying to find those autism links and in a way thinking about the ways in which history could be relevant to more than just academics. His choice of image say selected one by routinely funny. Koa so this is kind of a typical image for tv in the sense that it's a cool a kind of male nude but it's so much more complex than that of course of people have written about his work in relation to robert mapplethorpe. Who in a way depicted the blackmail in very hyper sexualize way in new york into specific moment. Whatever teams done with this particular body of work is to really think through ways in which the kind of the black or the be reinstated within a narrative of spirituality. On what you see with the subject kind of holding a candle on is this incredible kind of delicacy to the image in a kind of tentativeness. That's exactly throughout a retreat There was something so distinctive about the way. In which wilson. Many of his were relations close friends a net. I think was really important to him. But somehow it wasn't just the act of taking someone else's image on recreating it purely for his own desire but it was about in a way i think creating a space with which within the black body could be reunited with a sense of industry in a sense of tradition. I think that's confluence. What so many young artists doing today whether it's not it's like the mayor says she pep may or even someone like semi banerjee that all tissue are decisively coming from different parts of africa with very different perspectives of. They're interested in this idea that you know our history is so complex. And so layered and what it demands are in a way of kind of cooling upon ancestoral memory and in a way the are becomes a kind of portal but allows for that communion in the aftermath of year where george toys death led to much institutional soul-searching. Some light touch some not. I asked say what he thought was changing if you think about you know. More and more customized the now seeking out scholars of black studies or african art african american art. And i think that's a really important thing. But i also see a kind of sense. Maybe people that overlook those histories even in in the professional capacity as a writer Mates announce starting to really think about that. That historical neglect amon how they may have been complicit in those those exclusionary tactics. Let's say so. I think that this kind of rising consciousness. I think on around these issues but i don't think we're anywhere near the change that we need to see and i would say that because it comes perspective of i think how stories told and thinking about the authenticity of those stories. So you know it's one thing for someone to say. Let's include an artist of color in an exhibition because it makes the show more diverse. I'm ann it's another level of attention altogether to suggest that that artists is worthy of the same kind of historical reading that they white counterparts of being have been for you know decades if not centuries so it's it's about in a way it's about correcting the record but it says about doing that deep nuanced historical work into thinking about not about new canon but about a kind of a new constellation in way about history. Definitely this is very exciting. Actually and And you'll rise is definitely Lots of research in Is not wasting behind this book. That tells you look. A book. denies the priorities. But watch this. Ov- certain challenges the field. You come up against as yours. In within your specific voters incubator. Would you say your. I think the challenges have to do this something that hopefully you'll audience can relate to is maybe the sense of even though the the black community. A the that have a stake in and are involved in organizing exhibitions. All very active at the moment and there is a huge amount being done across the board. And i what. What's exciting so much now. Is that institutions originally positions. Where they have to actually. Now listen to those artists and listen to those rates on those voices. But i think was the case with black creatives working in these launched. Large industries was that we were kind of expected to take what was given to us. And i remember speaking to you in all just recently about this. And about the when they will give him a solo exhibitions at they would just say Care about the v. It's not a problem. And i think that that kind of idea somehow that we should just be happy to be there has to kind of. I think has to dissipate effectively. What i'm saying is that it's not enough to have a seat at the table. We have to come to the table knowing exactly what we want out of the institutional out of that particular opportunity. And that's what. I would encourage lots of black creatives to think about. One of the challenges has always been the lack of community. Actually i won't within the black community as relates to the world. And i think that's had to do with lots of things a lack of institutional positions like opportunities for artists. It's something that i think in my career. I've had to really work again. So what would it mean to practice kind of radical generosity and to open doors to others rather than to see oneself as a gatekeeper on. That's why whenever a younger curated reaches out. An emerging artists wants advise. I'm always happy to help. And i don't know that. I necessarily received that when i was starting out. The show i have meant wasn't people that were really pivotal infecting tons of building my career. But i guess that's one of the challenges. I think we need to build a sense of community. Because i think to a large extent. It's the thing that i think holds us back right. The lack of being able to acknowledge that we we need one another. And actually even if you're not necessarily aligned with someone's intellectual position there aren't there aren't enough of us to be competitive in the way that i often find creative fields can be when it comes to creative so i'm interested in that and i guess as far as my role is concerned that something i will continue to work towards and think about but where do we go from here. How do you represent the voss range of black creative expression a map in a way that creates evolving framework of understanding one that is intentionally chosen to reflect black life or not as the is as it feels whilst it's reassuring witnessed some change and i've been amazed by the similarities in parallel thinking happening across the globe. I keep hearing office plea for intention. -ality that now is the time to embrace our revolutionized agency in curiosity and action as she in aligarh half as the establishment response to be alum has shown. There's a long way to go before extra structures exist or even desired by some. And do we need to ask ourselves. If we're all doing enough to encourage and build an all community characterized by the radical. Generosity of say spoke of enough to challenge ourselves to authentically showcase the black image in all. Its nuances. do we too often valley kind of lack imagery. That sells plays into notions particular moment or connects to view community in order to fit in relying on some kind of misplaced sense of kinship which inadvertently creates boundaries borders or even invisible lines that obscures the true expression of the black experience on this earth and not own imaginations which is the experience after all. Thanks to say the oh elias bernarda for coming onto stance and thanks to vibe koon tech gucci and the no face for supporting this edition of stance takes. I'm crystal genesis. The producer was nicole. Logan the executive producer charlie bell digital production by joel duncan and farrell man sound designed by axel kootenai and this was a staunch studios production made with vibe khoo teck for the no face and gucci collaboration on the first of the month. Thank you for listening. Discover more about the podcast in collaboration with stunts and divide cool tech in the episodes notes.

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Kusama-rama: Yayoi in London, New York and Berlin

The Art Newspaper Weekly

1:01:31 hr | 3 months ago

Kusama-rama: Yayoi in London, New York and Berlin

"We cannot be sponsored by christie's visit christie's dot come to find out more about the world's leading auction house in seventeen sixty six action private sales online anytime. Hello and welcome to the weekend. I'm ben league this week kasama rama. We take a deep dive into your qassam as polka dots. Pumpkins and affinity rims. A- shows opened in new york washington. London and berlin. We're joined by three curator's francis morris the director of tate. Modern in london talks about cassandra's infinity rooms meager yoshi talk. The curator of an exhibition at the new york. Botanical garden explains the fundamental role of plants in nature in qassam art and stephanie. Rosenthal director of the gropius. Bau in berlin discusses the huge a retrospective. That's just open before that. I'm delighted to say that the we cannot has won an award. We went in special interest. Category at the publisher put cost awards on wednesday on behalf of the whole team. We'd like to think the publisher cost awards and it's judges. The many brilliant guests that have come onto the poker's our sponsor christie's the art newspaper superb editors and reporters including those have not appeared on this podcast. But he's stories are the backbone of what we do and of course you our listeners. Thank you for being part of this journey now. As part of its twentieth anniversary last year take mudan plant have a show cooed york kasama infinity mirror rooms in which the two installations involving mirrors and lights recently acquired by the tate will be shown together because of covid nineteen that show was postponed but finally opened when the museums emerged from lockdown. In may for this episodes work of the week we decided to concentrate. on one of those installations infinity mirror room filled with the brilliance of life. And i spoke to francis morris. The director of tate modern about the work in the context of the hugely popular may room series francis with gonna talk about infinity mirror room filled with the brilliance of life. But i'd like to begin by talking about the very first infiniti rooms because actually preceded this by court longtime there they were made in the sixties not really seems to me to be extremely groundbreaking thing to have done in the mid sixties the fascinating aspect of qassam trajectory that there's an artist who forged her career through traditional japanese painting on an engagement with surrealism. And then a decade later hit the ground running in in new york and was absolutely the front of that moment of innovation around participation practice immersive experience and the very early marriage rooms. Really were for gatherings of people of her oggi's performances. How her body paintings and that. They were quite extraordinary. But i think all her work from her very earliest painting all her work was using whatever medium was to create. The most immersive expansive. Experience is really interesting. Even in these tiny drawing she made in the nineteen fifties once she laid them out. She lay them out in a kind of complete environment. So there's all sorts of continuities radical innovation but absolutely within her own genetic understanding of artistic practice and there are wonderful pictures of her in the sixties in those early mirrored rooms yet like a tiny tiny person dressed in extraordinary close. She'd made herself covered in dots painting. Brilliantly colored dots poster paint on these large naked american men. I'm kind of brilliant very serious and very very funny. Yeah indeed took away. I think of the mirror dreams almost like this culmination of all the ideas in the sense that you got in this particular Installation they were going to talk about. You've got the lights which is sort of like the polka dots. But you've also got this idea of cosmos so so you have sort of mill micro and macro all at once. I mean another way of putting the intimacy and the infinity. And i think that's why people find them so engaging because it's an extraordinary kind of physiological experience to walk into this almost completely dark space captivated by these twinkling lights occasionally plunged into darkness with with a fraud that because of the way she creates the depth of water. You are you literally feel you are hovering in space so as a kind of out of body experience and very moving these extraordinary and where we had this work with i realized in the exhibition. We did it. Take modern in twenty eleven. And i just remember the quite often in the mornings having the privilege of going into the space and sitting on the floor not the wet bit but the dryer bit and really. I mean just transported back moving very intimate and very expensive. It's sort of kind of the place like when you're on the top of a cliff you feel you could happily di dino. You're transported to another realm. There was this sort of big gap. Wasn't there between those sixties works and what we think covers the you know this. This now long series of infinity rooms. What accounts for that distance between those two periods. I think the distance was kasama was a as we know. An artist who was born in japan born in the east came to the west forced her career in conjunction of east and west in terms of practice became a very radical artist in new york but burnt out. She was too radical for her time and she went back to japan kind of on the verge of collapse. Mental health already fragile in really kind of shuttered and for two decades. She found her way artistically through other means she was in hospital for a while. She began making small works in clay. She did a lot of drawing. She wrote novels extraordinary novels that that speak to those mental health issues so she resumed her career big time really in the nine hundred ninety s on the international stage. But what is interesting. Is that the ties of those new works although profoundly different because they speak of a different age the end of the twentieth century absolutely connect with all those concerns that she really you see emerging in her very earliest work in the nineteen fifties. And then you see we acted in america through installations who sculpture to performance. This huge painting. So it's a story of rupture and and also continuity and the really interesting thing i think about kasama is that was very telling and relevant to our age. Her career her art work. You know she lived through and may talk. Through dictatorship through world war through nuclear annihilation. Through the era of protest in america revolutionary politics conservatism and japan and always comes out of those deeply traumatizing experience with something extraordinary just to have that resilience alongside the fragility of her mental health. With this moment when we come out of covid and we're probably coming out of one pandemic into another pandemic of mental. Health is is kind of you know. Just a really amazing lesson for all of us i think. Can you describe to us the experience you had. I mean i think he said that the first infiniti room that you saw by kasama was in was in venice. The one thousand nine hundred three being where there was the yellow and black mirror. That was the kind of that was really her entrance onto the international stage for that new era. Right i think for a lot of people myself included we encountered kasama without knowing the history in the nineties as extraordinary contemporary artist and it was only subsequently through a one or two major american exhibitions and then she touched show in oxford. And then the serpentine that we began to look back and see this incredible history and for me it was like connecting those two things that that awakened my interest in her but so that the venice was extraordinary and captivating but then subsequently i also had an expensive her work in new zealand in twenty eleven. When i went to see her show. I think it was the mirrored years at the wellington city art gallery show originated by mci in sydney and that was really interesting. Because that was the first time. I kind of understood the phenomena of kasama this huge celebrity. Because i as i approached the building it was there. Were people snaking queue all around the courtyard and then going into the building. There were lines to go into these infinity marriage rooms which were kind of encased in walls. And you're invited in by god for literally. I think it must have been like fifty or sixty seconds. Max and it was that experience of the kind of tantalisingly brief immersion. That really guided my compensation. I went to see who sarma immediately after that. Visit to wellington to talk about how to deal with mayor rooms in our exhibition and it was that conversation and the challenging the convention of one in one out that gave her the idea of doing this kind of super big air room for take modern which is not just bigger than the conventional mayor rooms but has an entrance and exit it so you you kind of journey through infinity to the beyond and that was a really successful outcome at one of the things that the obviously people talk about is how instagram -able the infancy rooms are and it's true. They are so photogenic and we all of us have been in that situation where we've taken a snap of ourselves in these spaces one of the things that's often missed is how that element is almost like part of the work. It's kasama obsession with. Repetition is carried on by her audience right absolutely but it's not just her obsession with repetition. It's also obsession with putting herself or oneself at the center of the work and one of the striking things about qassam. His career is that from the very earliest years from her teenage years. She took great pains to document. How work and her place within the studio or the exhibition. So there's an incredible history of extraordinary portrait's kusov centerstage often dressed for the part in close. She's she's made herself or really amazing design again right from those early days matsumoto in japan through new york and you identify with the work in the way that she identifies with it. So it's kind of and she talked a merging of self is emerging of the visitor with q solomon says absolutely true to the work that you should capture it and you should instagram. But the only thing that i think really doesn't come through is the sense of duration and what is beautiful about filled with the brilliance of life. It's it's two minute sequence. So it's quite a long sequence. Compared to many of her mirror works if you try to narrate the colors. We've tried to do this in it's green green and blue blue green red red purple and blue blue and whites pink white yellow blue green red green. An it's an endless infinite sequence of you cannot. We haven't yet found a way to get back to the beginning technologies driving. But it's kind of brilliant it's totally arbitrary and once every fifty or sixty seconds you are plunged into the absolute infinity of darkness. So all that joined brilliance is is counter balanced by these moments of absolute panic and again. It's very very akin to the kind of experiences that we've all been having with covert of calm control and then suddenly your hit by this kind of overwhelming sense of panic. Qassam is ability and you see all through her work to play off the safe sound with danger. Pleasure with pain dark with lights serious with the comedic and she just she's able to orchestrate that in in a way that is deeply manipulative. Because you're not aware it's happening. It's only afterwards and maybe that's a sign of the genius that that she does that in a a non narrative way she uses colored light. Pulse rhythm to do that. And so you get in this two minutes. It's almost operatic in. Its intensity is interesting. You say that. This idea of in a way by stealth illustrating quite complex ideas because this idea self obliteration. It's not an obvious one. But it's actually just happens to you in you in these bases right. So he's such a key cornerstone of philosophy. Isn't it. well. It's i suppose it's a cornerstone of it's not just her philosophy but it's her experience of life and ask you some documented. Her life with photograph. She also was an avid autobiography and began writing of deeply intimate confessional autobiographical narratives from from new york. And there's no reason to doubt the telling of her experiences as a child where she would occasionally She was brought up in matsumoto. He'll town north of tokyo in a kind of rural miller apparent father had a seed had a market garden. So she's been a lot of in the open with flowers and would occasionally overwhelmed. You'd have a kind of vision. Where her visuals. Secluded with hazy dots and identify a psychoanalyst would make of it but clearly there were moments where she was very confused very doubtful and very engaged in a kind of panic and the use of dots is. She's always talked about that is trying to and the nets is trying to mechanisms for trying to recapture that experience and comfort to other people and again the imperative surround people with dots or nets again is to the idea of you immersed in that very powerful experience that she felt as a child and has continued to feel since. It's interesting that even when you are with kasama. She evidently experiences moments of panic. You see it when she's in the studio. She draws on her assistance to support. It's absolutely something she's lived with and she has an extraordinary person. She has managed and created this extraordinary career in spite of or maybe also because of her mental vulnerabilities. A little bit. Louise bourgeois she. Kusaba is driven by those personality traits. That might bring other people down you mentioned covid and inevitably that is going to affect the way people can experience this work. But you said there's an entrance and an exit and that's crucial. Isn't it interview times. He absolutely crucial but of course we have a second infinity mayor room at tate which is a walk in walkout one. One personal group can sanitizer afterwards and tellingly. I think it's title is chandelier of grief so again. It's completely not by design. It's just beautiful coincidence. That in the same small exhibition. We have a word that really thinks. About the emotion of grief and loss and another word that celebrates the brilliance of life. And again that just feels like a really wonderful gift as we come out of covert because of course. Many of our visitors will be experiencing grief and we'll have gone through really very very difficult time. So there is a counterbalance. There's an acknowledgement that that both those aspects of rio joy and real sadness can coexist in our lives Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you Kasama infinity mirror. Rams will open to members from the eighteenth of may and to the wider public from the fourteenth of june. It will continue until june twenty twenty two and two infinity mirror. Rooms will feature in one with attorney. You're kasama in the hersholt collection and exhibition center. Open at the herschel. Museum in washington dc. The museums currently closed but do visit his website to check for announcements. Still to come. I took to mika yoshitaka about some at the new york botanical garden and to stephanie rosentahl about the retrospective at the gropius bau in berlin. But first here are some of the top stories on. The newspaper's website this week. The museum of modern art is among the new york museums that will increase their visit to capacity to fifty percent next week under relaxed covid. Nineteen safety rules unveiled. By the state governor. Andrew cuomo as nazi kenny. Reports of new museums are rising safety procedures in response to comas announcement that they'll be able to admit visitors offender capacity starting on monday. The twenty sixth of eight pro. The metropolitan museum of art has been cautiously expanding. Its visit capacity will inching towards the previous maximum of twenty five percent. It won't boost that capacity to fifty percent on monday advance. Reservations time to tickets will still be necessary at all. Museums museums of expressed relief at the guilty verdict announced this week of the former police officer. Derek chauvin for the murder of george floyd last may but stressed still a long way to go to achieve racial justice in the country. The san francisco museum of modern art said in a statement quote. This is a step in the right direction. But they're still much work to be done to confront the devastating reality of police. Brutality and systemic. Racism has gareth harrison. Any right other responses new museum in new york posted a work by kerry may winds from its show grief and grievance art and morning in america waves these work for two thousand sixteen. The boy series shows a portrait of a black man in a hooded sweatshirt matched with a text that evokes police revolt response. The museum says to the persistent killing of black men and women by various authorities international researches have discovered why one of four closely related paintings by pablo. Picasso has deteriorated more quickly than the others. Jane's imam reports that the research centered on four paintings inspired by the ballet russe which can produce in barcelona in one thousand nine hundred seventeen stewart as family home until nineteen seventy and then donated to the museum. Dekassegi bus load works have been exposed to environmental conditions yet and taroko seated man has deteriorated severely than the other three paintings. The reason began used a canvas with a tighter. We've coated in a thicker layer of animal blue leading to intense stresses formed when the paintings exposed to fluctuating humidity chemical reactions between certain pigments and binding media. Who's paints degrade these stories and much more. The newspaper dot com or app for iphone ipad. Which you can get from the next. We'll be back after this. We cannot is sponsored by christie's this month christie's percents to exciting online. Only auctions messy the boots. The made history is a charity sale of massey's record-breaking addidas boots used to school. He's six hundred forty four goal for barcelona. The most ever for a single club signed and donated by macy himself in aid of the valle de bruin hospitals and health program bidding closes on the thirtieth of april alongside. This modern contemporary is an online sale dedicated to italian and international artists of the forefront of the most important autistic methods the twentieth and twenty th centuries it encompasses paintings photographs ceramics prints and multiples speed until the sixth of may on works by fausto bertinotti. Cindy sherman guiraud baretti sola wit. Lucia fontana an pablo picasso. Find out more at christie's com. Welcome back a reminder that you can catch up on all the episode of our sister. Podcast a brush with featuring in depth conversations with some of the great artists of all time. You can listen. And subscribe at apple focused spotify or wherever. You're listening now now. The new york botanical garden has just opened kasama. Cosmic nature staged across the gardens landscape in and around conservatory. And he's library. Building as francis mentioned kasama grew up in a seed nursery and has had a lifelong fascination indeed obsession with the natural world. I spoke to mika yoshitaka leading specialist in japanese who curated the phenomenal six venue. Us to kisangani infinity rims between twenty seventeen and twenty nine teen and organized the botanical garden. Show maker in your essay in the show. In general you make it very clear that nature is absolutely at the heart of psalm as work. Can you explain why yes. Nature is absolutely one of the most important visceral embodiments in personas practice. She grew up in an seed nursery that was owned by her family and was surrounded by green houses and fields and i think the biological cycles of life and death were very much absorbed from an early age. Her interpretation and translation of Nature through her work is something that is very unique in that. She combines the cosmic and the botanical worlds and in my essay do explore that relationship or that kind of interconnectivity between nature human nature and cosmic nature but the early years because it is so fascinating that early period as you say she grows up in the seed nursery and of course in the botanical garden. Show there is this greenhouse. Can you tell us a bit about. Is that a very deliberate reference to her early years. Yes for the botanical garden. We have a greenhouse. That's called flower obsession. But it's inspired by the greenhouse that she grew up in and visitors will be given stickers that have ten different kinds of coral colored flowers. It's very different from. She has another installation called obliteration. Room were visitors are given polka dots. And it's a very very white domestic space usually and a white space that is then obliterated by these you know colorful dots. But in this case it's outside and it's up nature and the greenhouse itself it's not white. It's kind of like you know walking into someone who's about to you know. Plant various flowers or have some tea inside the greenhouse and so the vision actually began on when she had these hallucinations of flour spreading from herself to the tablecloth into the walls and everything so we actually have a tablecloth inside the greenhouse with flowers. And so it's a deliberate reference but also just this kind of expansion into the natural world is really fascinating. Isn't it that. The polka dots emerged from that hallucination. They so the polkadot which in ways mice famous motif emerge directly directly from a flu reference. Well that's the most famous reference. But she also has written about these pebbles that she sees on a riverbed right outside of her home and how they're a glistening in the sun thousands of pebbles and so To me i think that memory is very connected to one of the earliest memories connected to this vision of infinity and cosmos. Can you tell us a bit more about early experience with the pumpkin. Because that was on that pham among the seeds and everything else she discovers her first pumpkin yes so her grandfather was taking her through the fields in the greenhouse and she remember very vividly this pumpkin that appeared in a field of an zinnias pair of goals. In the form of the pumpkin was so bodily and i think it was almost cute grotesque at the same time and she remembers thrusting her hand and grabbing the stem of the pumpkin and seeing the sap us very kind of sensibility that she has already where. It's not just this character cute. It's it's the feels. Almost consensus tasted smell. It and it's that kind of experience that i think really resonates to this day in her eviction of the pumpkin data and in some of those early drawings for instance he took about those early resonances. Again it's not an affectation. Is it these early joys featured these sort of dotted forms across the dorms right. Yes some some of her earliest drawings. There's actually we didn't focus on but it was a self portrait of her mother. It's the earliest that you see Her vision of sushi has polka dots on the self portrait on the verse so There is a vase with a flower inside. And it's also The background is all polka-dotted. So you know. She trained with very traditional hongda. Japanese style painting an kilda and actually Going back to the pumpkin. She remembers when she had to draw one pumpkin for a whole month and so that was part of the training. So it's very realistic. Drawings that she she began doing but then she quickly as board of that kind of academic training and starts to go into these more abstract surrealist depictions of nature before. We're going to that. I'm really intrigued by these stories that she made when he was sixteen. Which actually are in the library at the botanical garden on the eve including the show. Tell us about the picks quizzes online. Yes the sketchbooks so she would go into the fields and sketch not the blossoming flowers but also the decaying buds and identify each part of the flowers. So she's very knowledgeable about each part of these Plants and they are exquisite their various kinds of peonies and in the book. We have joanna gorka who actually is analyzed fees and then yes the becomes much more abstract. What's amazing about the work when it becomes more abstract and it becomes very surrealist influence. Clearly is that there. Is this very direct connection that you were talking about earlier on a kind of bodily sense but also this completely extravagant realm of the imagination. Very fantastical so what i notice you know. She has this very anthropomorphized. More fiqh quality of some of her early paintings. And there's a painting we have featured in the gallery called self portrait and that is a some flour but then there's a pair of lips underneath the the sunflower and so it becomes this face. And in what i discovered. This was while i was installing the exhibition with that she already depicting the nets underneath the self portrait so that was very early on nineteen fifty so she was twenty one she also talks about. If you understand my work that you have to. It's as if i'm talking through these flowers or these rocks or these trees and so she really kind of captured herself within these states of nature. The aspect of those works. That intrigues me. Most is the way that she's fusing new hunger and yoga. The japanese painting style and western painting right and it's very much sort of direct fusion of the two. Yeah i mean at the time in the forties there was a i think it direct departure from new honda and yoga were more. Turn of the century Late nineteenth century and the early twentieth century. I think a lot of artists were especially directly after the war. Trying to find a visual language that was realism was being questioned and Surrealist especially were also banned. I think during the war and to convert their abstract practice in too much more of a realistic for the war effort so There this was a time where where nature actually was was a vital resource for representing this very complex state of nihilism chaos and the suffering from the ravages of war and then when she makes this big leap into this world of new york immediately. Those works i mean they were wonderful pictures of that period. For instance as extraordinary 'em picture of her with my flower bed nine hundred sixty two. Which is this enormously threatening flower creation. Do you tell us a bit about actually. So she expanded her artistic language but again nature him nature. You remains very much at the heart of it isn't it. He s so she moves to new york in nineteen fifty eight and practice really shifts from you know she was creating these incredible works on paper before then but yes the sculpture. You're talking about that's from eighteen. sixty two. It's like a carnivorous plant. That is about to devour her She's made thought like thousands of these Stuffed and sewn fabrics at of fire gloves and spray paints them read. And so you know. It's it's this fantastical vision of nature that she begins to develop and you'll see that through the eighties and to the present day i'd say a new and as you said you can directly link. The infinity nets paintings which actually look abstract to objectively. You would say they were abstract paintings but you can link them to to those kind of nature. studies is effectively in vinnie. Paintings were actually inspired by her flight over the pacific ocean so some of the early paintings are actually titled pacific ocean and so the the waves the currents that she saw the ocean from the airplane are directly related to the infinity. Nets are made by one through these intricate arts but from afar they look like there is this you know pattern. Conc- her hand the movement of her body and that it resonates with Ocean currents i suppose one of the things that resonates most with the botanical garden show acoustics in nine hundred sixty six. The bonaly creates her first. Narcissus garden extraordinary piece. Tell us more about so. Narcissists guarded was kind of guerrilla art installation that Qassam added in nineteen sixty six. She wasn't officially invited to the venice biennale but she participated by bringing thousands of these stainless steel orbs and she actually had help from lucia fontana at the time to fund this and she was selling these orbs for two dollars each and it was just kind of this cheeky criticism. Against the way that pop art was so popular and she was. She's still identifies herself as asgard guard artist and and she was also dressed in. This very metallic chemo. No you know. oriental ising herself knowing full. Well you know people are just gonna eat that up so And but yet yes that installation which was outside on a garden back in sixty six has been translated into this beautiful the botanical garden. We have. I think it's the native plant garden where they have the water and the orbs just flow within with the wind currents and you can see it right now are cherry blossoms blooming so you can see the reflections of these trees and yourself and yet not piece i would say is the one that really reflects the natural the human and the cosmic all in one. It's it's an extraordinary thing. I've seen it. I've seen it both inside and outside actually that peace and it never ceases to be spelled binding. Eat battery the unit very obvious. You're looking at a series of stainless steel orbs. And yet somehow this this sort of phenomenon logically experience that happens where we should to transcended beyond the material tells us it is. That's absolutely true. Yes and yes. Because i think. The relativity of one's body in relation to the the world are natural coexistence of things we it becomes kind of balanced. So it's not just you know humans overtaking nature but we aren't tiny the reflections. And so i think. It's a very humbling experience. There's a wonderful sequence in that film the self obliteration film from nine hundred sixty eight. Which people can you can actually find it on youtube if you want to if you want to watch it. But there's one scene where she is in the middle of a lake and she's effectively painting dots in the water and they disappear. Can you tell us a bit about that work. And what what was she trying to do. He has so. It's incredible it's performance. She is in woodstock and she's wearing a straw fisherman hat and she begins by. She has a paintbrush and red pain. And she's she's got paper. I think that's floating on the water. And she starts to to paint polka dots on the paper but then of course effectively. She starts to paint onto the water. And you know for anyone who's done this. The paint does exist on the water for a little while and then it starts to dissolve an open up through each ripple of the water. And i think it's such a really. Poignant piece i love works that are immaterial like and i think so. Much of her work is solid sculpture or painting. And that's one moment when you can really see her vision of the polkadot really expand. It's not just this kind of abstract form it's you know it's the sun the moon and how dissolves into your surroundings and how you yourself will eventually dissolve back into the earth one of the periods. That he's least known of her work. Is that period where she initially returns to japan and she's making smaller scale. Were so we. There's this sort of radical sixty period that has now become pretty well known and of course more recent works really fascinating in the botanical gardens. So you've got these works from the seventy s which again are very diverse in their response to nature but their studies in paint which has also fascinating elements to yes The work that she engaged in after she returned to japan in nineteen seventy-three miss. You went through quite a period of depression. But she started doing these incredible collages. And so we have some included in the exhibition and their um floto cutouts fabrics. And they have the subterranean inequality of the underworld and there's a peaceful pistols swaying in the wind from nineteen seventy eight which has a direct relationship to the more colorful imagery that you see now but yeah. I think that the work going into the late seventies into the early eighties is very much Still underrecognized. I don't know what it is about that decade but In her her condition and being in back in tokyo. But it's there's a lot to explore their sent me something. Poignant about them precisely. Because of life circumstances at that moment they have account kind of terrific power about them. Didn't they get and then and then you get to this sort of what we might call the michio period of her work where she's become a sort of global superstar in terms of both the art world and beyond a. How did you go about choosing the works that feet. Because there's quite a lot of work from this period that you could have chosen from. Tell us about the words that you you'll showing in the botanical garden show resonance they have. Well we of course wanted to include a lot of work outside so we have about eleven installations and those were chosen in consultation with the studio and With the new botanical garden staff and we wanted to of course have a new work to but something that also expands from the early years into the present so the dancing pumpkin eleven tentacled huge. Sixteen foot sculpture. We actually saw a cat of it in the studio. And i just when i thought i was like the this is gonna be so mind boggling for people who are used to the more conventional pumpkin but i just thought that it was super resident with the nine hundred fifty s works on paper and just her way that she integrate so many different imagery is into one and it is kind of surrealist strategy of doubling and you have. It looks like a jellyfish of second. Octopus looks like a pumpkin. It's very kasama and so I was attracted to sculptures installations that could really speak to the range of her her aesthetic throughout her career. And then i wanna fly to the universe which is this. Almost starfish looking laurel creature with a very a face and pointing to the sun. And we installed it so that it was facing the sun as it rises from the east. Then we also have the nurses discard in which of course from the sixties And then essentially polka dots. Which are these Polka dotted fabric. Red fabric that line. The trees of the botanical gardens really interesting to see the dialogue between you know her work which is not really a blending into landscape. It's really heightening the forms of outlining the trees which some visitors might not Usually look up into you know because the flowers are so beautiful So i thought it was great. Interplay between the way that She her work and the natural landscape really kind of connected and is it right that you wanted the work effectively to correspond with the seasons as they change. Absolutely the meaning of the works. Actually are Heightened by the shifts that happen through nature and so actually in one inside the conservatory. There is a flower path that is inspired by one of her paintings on called alone buried in the garden and horticulture will change the flowers according to the seasons. And so the work will shift. Even though it's you know inspired by this one painting it changes the nature of the flower will change based on the seasons and it leads up to this Sculpture hold story pumpkin And it's incredible to see that is also inspired by the meadows. It's kind of like coming up on a pumpkin as as qassam is walking through Her the meadows and fields of her seat nursery with their grandfather's. So yeah those flowers will change as well with the seasons and so i love that the works are alive. They make the works much more alive rather than in a white cube space loss load. I wanted to ask about qassam as living circumstances. And how she accesses nature today because one of the things that occurred to me and from all the reports and other the interviews with her she gives a very urban existence and yet her work is still full of nature. Does the work become a kind of escape into nature for her effectively. Sort of living nature vicariously through the work yama. She lives in her hospital room where she actually is working on lots of paintings week by week and very productive still and It's close by her studio and she has her staff come in check in and report to her every day and I'm meet. I imagine that she does go outside. I have a picture of her from the seven days in the hospital. But it's there is a garden and she's wearing this really nice beautiful hat and so i think The isn't in schick with very very urban there. And so think you're right that there is perhaps this living vicariously through her work. There's so much hope in her work. She's gone through a lot of suffering through the sixties. And then you know still to this day. But i think her artwork is a form of healing for her so nature of course the depictions that she has in her work are a source of healing for her Thank you so much to assert Cassava cosmic is at the new york botanical garden until the thirty first of october and finally berlin's gropius has just opened a major expected of qassam his work including a new installation in its atrium. I spoke to the shows curator. Gropius bounce director stephanie. Rosenthal about the show stephanie. Can you tell us something about your approach to. This exhibition occurs to me that cassandra's now such as such globally renowned figures. She's one of those figures that's cut through from the art world into the sort of wider public consciousness to a degree. What what is it important for you to say in this exhibition that maybe as well established yeah exactly. I think it was really the hope from our side to do an exhibition. Which on the one hand is is for really wide public and on the other hand also. I'm break new ground in relation to research and also for people who have seen a lot of shows in our more interested in the academic sites. So there's there's one aspect which we did a lot of research on his kazama in germany and europe so we've kind of did research on the shows. She had like for example the driving image show at the teen in gallery. Essen or show she did in the hack who love Works which we discovered poverty to have been shown but never contextualised this really what we call the europe focus so there. We did completely new research in also. We've decided to present. Her works very much from her perspective. So saying that we decided that it is a logical installation so you start with the very early work. Can you end with late work but we again. Did these focus rooms where we decided to basically recreate exhibitions in the way she has done them. To show has actually kazama installed her own works because obviously if you do a retrospective in one of the points besides selecting the works is also to think about. How do we present the works. Do we want to do it in. You know how we show today. It say not be interested in how she hanging it. Or how was she combining more saying we'll get alone. It's a beautiful work in. We put it on the wall and so we decided very much to indies. Focus from these eight exhibitions to really reflect. What has she done at the time when she did. This works in the exhibition. So we start with the show. She did in one thousand nine hundred fifty two. So she's born in nineteen twenty eight and so she was just in her early twenties when she did this exhibition it was a show in the place she was born in matsumoto. And it was there in the city gallery and she decided already then which was fascinating for me that she wants to show two hundred seventy works in a space where i would walk into. Today i would say fifteen to twenty works maybe and she would do a ready this all overhang and up down and so it was interesting to see that already. Then when the works. I mean they also extremely beautiful very much like they feel a bit surrealistic but also botanical motifs. Very detail that she would kind of surround visit us really with her work. You would basically dive in it. So that's what we're talking about today from the immersive works. I mean mitchell. Veasley happing developed since the sixties with lots of other artists. But even then you know in fifty two. She would already installed her work like that. So that was the other research. We did together as our architects Studio to lead. Try to go to the sites where she has thrown to legal. The floor plans to really understand. How was she combining the works. You know what so like the forensic work in two buildings and architecture which is really interesting also for me and was yet another new aspect which we kind of really unfolded a bit more. How she was working installing. Her work is one of the challenges in a way to kind of deepen the complexity around her were. If you're making a retrospective you have to on the one. Hand engage the public in these sort of extraordinary which which they have become so engaged with but also in a way. Sort of complicate. The kind of candy-colored kookiness the that she's pabst become associated with. Yeah i think you described that. Really very well i think her show in a way. You can be a walk-through art history. Especially i mean she. You know is is basically the pair of of so many artists of the of the fifties in new york who have basically written art history and we know lots of people have be left out but still. It's the beginning of you. Know minimalism. you know it's like the all over is. Allied capital was his environment. I mean it's a lot of things which are happening at these times. And you basically go through her work and you see how much she was part of that art history and also how much has happened. You know in these in these years from her infinity net paintings which i kind of feel like this is a minimal. Listrik approach even in her case. It's like different but you still have a room. But you feel like i kind of understand. This is the reducing this in hurricanes that of course again this engaging with infinite vision of you know her basically i sing really merging with the outside but then you go into the accusations and the soft sculptures where of course then if you think of cloth oldenburg could did it just slightly later so you kind of have these cultural aspects was like the different phallic objects and all this the kind of importance of the body at that time and the performative practices reno from that time the radical political statements. She did yes. I think so doing the show like that you really see was how many aspects she has enrolled from like was the vietnam war the kind of new lows around homosexuality where she was very engaged risk becoming a fashion designer. You know where she also very much kind of explore the erotic side in a way of of dresses. I think very y- you do really see how complex or engagement was art especially one of the key things it seems to me. I mean you alluded to the fact that she's making soft sculpture. Before and berg there she did wallpaper before wall halted will pay per one one of the things that may be is important to establish is just how radical her work was in the sixties. I mean it was definitely groundbreaking. And i think the sixties in new york. I'm still fascinated by that time. And i wrote my phd at the time about actually at paintings but that a whole group of artists was really. Am you know crossing the boundaries between odd for were questioning the whole idea of making art. You know kind of working against the object and she was definitely part of that. It's a good point to say you know. She wasn't recognized for this enough. I'm experiences it's very hard to say was i. You know because these things just pop up. I would not go as far as saying you know. A wool has copied her but definitely she wouldn't take it from warhol was bored. I think there is this. Just the energy i think in the conversations which happened. At the time she was absolutely on on the forefront and i think was her performances even more and for example. My main interest in work has always been with that. I'm just interested in kazama performances. Because this is where i feel. You know it's also bit. I'm Where my interest lies. But i was not so interested in the other works because i felt the performance walks is really where she was the most progressive where she was exploring the body the body in relation to also sculpture the political statements. She made was it also. I mean she she became persona non grata in japan because of that because the openness the kind of freedom in relation to nudity the orgy magazine she published you know where she was advertising dildos kind of so was writing about free sex and so there is a lot of that but i do actually think now that her whole worked just is one you know. It's it's actually really belongs as things through her. You know which she also says obsession. I think you con- actually say this is more radical than that. It's one in. I think this really how she has in a way then developed a walk. So i think Merchandising is not to make money merchandising. Because she wants to really bring her phumzile into the world. And i think she does it by painting the skin of people with thought spy tainting teapots and walt's and like just creating this other parallel world. Nearly so she's really up to now is still kind of creating new ways of expressing herself to tell us a bit more about about her time in new them because the sort of established narrative to a certain extent as early years in japan than her time in the us and then returning to japan. So what happened in europe. She herself was the writes in her. Which world goofy that actually from the mid sixties late. And then to the late sixties early seventies. She was much more present than europe. She had met woulda katamon. Who's one of our kind of important museum in stories. And he had even been across came across her worker and she did an infiniti net painting so ready in the fifties and asked her to participate in a exhibition in in germany then end has promised her apparently because i could read that in the letters you must have promised her a solo show in germany. Because they're the lettuce where she said hoodoo. I'm just wondering so you sat there be a solo. She's she was very you see so she. She had a real plan for curious so he arranged solo shows for her so she had shows in germany but also became very close to dodge. Artists are two were kind of Also involving her in either group or solo shows so she was parade presented by that gallery. -til in essen. She had kind of main gallery arrest gallery where she had several shows she was invited to gals and kitchen which was like an artist village to work for while she was in italy working with neutral fontana studio and also did this work at the venice. Biennale she was part of the settlement exhibition new exhibition so she was very much around than in germany. Meeting people placing her work doing one of the very early kind of nudity performances also in the netherlands so there was a lot of exchange for her while she describes what she felt like new york was over. I mean i don't know the story of saying that was too hard for her and softer joseph cornell her partner pasta way she felt you know. There's no stability for her. But there's some quite interesting letters wishes describing that you know it's after your when she went back to new that it's just not there anymore and she felt it makes more sense to go to japan. I think it's it's a combination but so she really felt that it was more dynamic at that point in germany so tell me about installing i show during the covid period because when i think about visiting kasama shows in the past for instance at the tate modern show which was pretty nearly a decade ago. Now there was the white room where people were sticking the sticky dots everywhere and then. There's the infinity rooms. Which are these light based pieces where it's tight spaces and these all these wonderful instagram -able spaces that basically are very participatory. People are very close to each other. So how'd you stole the show when you have restrictions and everything else in and keep that sort of play. Full participatory element. I mean poverty. We were lucky because some of the works we hadn't planned so we were not just also because as you say usually kazama show has to engage with. How do we deal with this huge amount of visitors. And how can we still experience gonzaga's work without feeling in zoo. You know so. We've had already restricted these works of complete. You know putting stickies on or because we felt that might be difficult. And now it's the the other way around That you know because they are of different limitations and we will have you know per timeslot only a few visitors. There are different issues and as you say entering an infiniti We had to with the agreement of the studio to change the ventilation of the ones. We're having we're having the very early peep show where you only look in so you don't go in with your whole body. Then we have another one a famous one the pumpkin infinity mirror where you also only peak in and we'll have one very early fallas field where you really allowed to walk in with now. You know foss long lines would have been a problem with the pandemic but now because we only allowed so few people the lines will also be. Which is i mean. We'll see when. I think the regulations go back to more visitors and still keeping the distance than that will be probably become a big issue. The advantage we're having here at the groups that we have huge spaces. The building is very large and the very new installation. She did file eight trim. A bouquet of love. I saw in. The the title is massive. It's like the whole atrium which is like twenty five meters lounge twenty meters brian. So a lot of people can experience that without in no offs. being worried about the regulations and also new infinity mirror. She did for us is much than the ones she started before. Luckily at the end but didn't become such a big headache. But i think you're right. I had endless discussions with the architects. About how do we navigate around that and so if we know what we hope in a in a in a few weeks or months we'll have more visits than will you know other things will kick in where we just have to restrict the access to sutton wax right and you just tell us a bit more about this knee work because as you say sort of filling the hole atrium is that right and with its involving inflatable elements yes. It's kind of insulation with sixteen tentacles. Basically grow from the floor up in the ceiling in the highest. One is eleven meters in the old hand. Sewn and it's amazing the have real you really feel. You're standing in something. Which is somehow weirdly alive. It's kind of weird. You know where you feel like this this worm still moving but it's it's massive at the same time and so it's really quite Even more intriguing than you would just see. You know we've seen a lot of renderings but then when it's they're also the the robert they used has a subtle kind of much more. It feels a bit like latex. Nearly half the skin thing so it's it's very rural so the whole thing is much more alive than i imagined it. So it's it's really. I mean it's it's fantastic for the space and it's kind of bright paint was like black dots. The floors also dotted. So this is really what you can imagine if you know because obviously this is what i imagine you'll see when you come to our show that I suspect tweeting to be seeing that. A lot on instagram stephanie. Thank you york. Oussama a retrospective continues at the gropius bau in berlin until the first of august. Twenty twenty one and stephanie. Rosenthal has created a reading list on kasama for book club. Visit the art newspaper dot com to read more and later this year the retrospective travel to the tel aviv review of art in israel and my eternal so paintings by kasama. We shown in. London told and new york. This summer at victoria miro in london from the fourth of june as part of an exhibition of paintings and sculptures then david van in new york from the seventeenth of june and ota finance tokyo from the nineteenth of gene. That's awesome you can subscribe to the newspaper at the newspaper. Dot com click on the subscribe. Link the top left of the page and you'll find a range of subscriptions and subscribe to this podcast if you've already done so please gives breaking full reviews if you enjoyed it on twitter app tunnel and on facebook and instagram kooks but we cannot is produced by judy house. Get they do and david clack. David also does the editing and sound design. Thanks so stimulators. Ben to an daniela. Hathaway to this week's guests frances and stephanie. And thank you for listening. See next week by the we cannot is sponsored by christie's visit christie's dot com to find out more about the world's leading auction houses. Seventeen sixty six private sales online. Not anytime

kasama new york christie francis morris japan mika yoshitaka berlin new york botanical garden ben league kasama rama di dino wellington city art gallery Kusaba stephanie rosentahl gropius bau nazi kenny Derek chauvin george floyd
35. Georgia OKeeffe with Joanne Oatts

Jo's Art History Podcast

46:39 min | Last month

35. Georgia OKeeffe with Joanne Oatts

"Hello and welcome back to the doors art history. Podcast podcast which celebrates all things every single day. It's the final episode of season one yet. after thirty. five weeks of nonstop art stoorikhel content. I thought it would be the perfect team to rain off. Season one in style. We're going on hi. Settings are historian an artist. You discuss one of history's most iconic female artists georgia o'keeffe it's one of those artists who was all too quickly pigeonholed as a creative who solely into flowers and that contained highly six undertows. I'm happy to report. However she is far more than that and thanks to the continued effort art historian of reading the world as well as recent blockbuster exhibition modern in two thousand sixteen keeps. Outpour has been rightly reevaluated. Showing the artists and juwan eight six whistle-stop tour some of poor. We discuss five works which highlight the development of the artist's life. O'keefe was an absolute powerhouse. Not only as an artist but as a woman and i can think of no better artists to off season. One of the podcast. Sit back and relax. As i discuss the amazing georgia piece question that most obvious so pleased to begin. The where was the first thing that you remember seeing o'keefe's work. Yeah so i i remember. I go calendar. As a christmas present. I think winner was about seventeen on some Things into all as a kid. I was into Getting sort of all t presence kind of thing. And i remember saying the judge roy. Kief documentary was may be a bbc documentary about her not mentioned it. Someone and then. I got this christmas present on on the whole it was. It was a lot of her flower paintings. Which of salo people know her. For like gibbs wait white flour and skull painting so Getting three them. I remember this this particular pace just really like miami. Stop in my tracks even attain like. There's something else going on behind it. It wasn't a nice plane stem. it was really abstract. I mean there was some sort of vaguely floral about it but it wasn't what it seemed to be. There was something going on. It was so vaguely sexual and eight. It's the grey lines with black blue and yellow. Which is i think around. Nineteen twenty three. It's likely it pulls you in a minute. Scott bike sexual. Titans win a lot of people who try to attribute so that sexuality to lock her walk but it is a lot of things going here is not very feminine but it's very powerful It's it's it's just yeah just really made me think this is something something most of the test than just flou- paintings and i want to deny more so that's where he where she came to my attention. I just say. I thank for thirteen year olds like that's incredibly sweatshop even associate starchy the biggest thing in my week with getting the top of the pope's magazines very different teenagers. But you're so right though. I love what you say that about. S painting joins un. Because for me it's almost like a vacuum that you can't have you almost kind of want to stay and to this canvas There's just she does beautifully o keefe and she got tarred with this brush. Very early on as a flower painter anywhere. Maybe let's ticket back a couple of days for super people listening who have never heard of the name. George o keefe. Could you just give a very brief overview of who georgia o'keefe wars. Yes sure I mean she was owning eighty seven. I think west wisconsin in the states. She learned how to do watercolors in and when she was young and think she started chicago to of all she. She went to new york and she showed in a group exhibition and she met the owner of the gallery where she showed alfred stieglitz who later into relationship with And he was a little older than her. She became monkeys. Me's missed with one of the things that sort of connects to the sexuality. Paul is that he took her quite low of mazing. Photographs of her would publish Magazines thank can and they were quite substantially is nothing. That's really where people start to like sort of sexualize her work because they saved the estate harrison all tips but the nice seen her in these sort of you know really beautiful feis graphs but they all sort of provocative of so so i think gave pitches a little bit more of a bit of a sort of sexual lennon's that people tribute to tuten. Yeah i mean. I would completely agree in even though the paintings of these flowers and stiglitz images over kief were exhibited together so technically join exit. Old Kief artist in that respect. They sohar is this gentleman's muse on it really target her reputation for quite away when and as she said you know she's tried so hard to sort of move away from this idea of these very sexually charged images which is why she takes a tarn actually an even clinton another one of your images as well so she starts as a way of lake rebelling against is sexually charged idea for work starts painting scenes of new york in these various Kind of semi abstract ways. She's just amazing. Cool where she talks about. You can't paints new york. has you see it. You have to paint new york as it makes you feel and i think that such a i mean. Apparently i've never been to new york. But i feel that with london Where i live. There's a feeling beck sexy. The energy also had a lunatic commit you feel sometimes the sheer scope End how you are many skew within it. And i think her at her new york series as brilliant at that but funny. She rebelled against people association. Making her work sexual in that was something. Yeah and i think that's the problem a lot of the time with women. Artists is the This'll in a way that they don't look for a male tests. They they won't to sexualize pitches that we that women paint So i think that's a problem that she had an unfortunate. I think it's still a problem today. Two buildings for the but the one. The one that i sh- abadi which is a street Nineteen six What's lovely about that. Is that what you were saying about that city vibe. It's gonna sort of slight sense of claustrophobia about it. Because by the way it's painted is like that sort of high-ups but the perspective is like initial looking down a street with very very tall buildings that you mice is the talk paul visual peripheral vision but the way the painted. Is you just literally the wolves closing in. I think sometimes it's by the beach full picture of the but it's also i kind of slightly negative side of it as well. That's not duality. Going on at the same time. But i mean i think like you. I think we've discussed so far is the didn't read. Haven't really seen these paintings until the tight rich A few years ago. Yeah oh my goodness. That's so i will hold my hands up note. I don't know. I feel an every episode of i do but i honestly do not think my art history. My undergrad art has degree touched on georgia o'keefe because i had never heard of our all of a sudden huge beg exhibition. What's going on in london. On everyone was going bonkers over and i was like. Who is this woman. Because essentially the lead damage the cover damage. That was plastered on every boss every chip. Stop was this gyms Horses so iconic was the cover image incredible Together as i say gee earlier. When i walked into this exhibition i was like okay. We'll go see it. Make on one you might as well try it because you don't know if you try it so i went along. I was when he finds seeing that you know an exhibition. Fill of flowers on an eight New york's gapes where amazing so colorful so just really powerful initially spoke. You know like you said there. There's this idea of the cities of dwarfing you from your stretching up it's endless but there's like a glimmer in the sky that freedom but you can't i. It was just amazing. But as i said earlier everyone was very much like Fitness through that galaxy. Get the flower paintings these brilliant wares. Everyone else will say great about that. Likes fishing completely. Pulled the type thing because there was so much work there was so much. A diverse were shadow styles that she'd experimented with it was abstract Touch cubism. he don't like a like didn't ski in the beautiful colored pieces. that was some very monochrome pieces. I mean this rainy highly abstract stuff where she literally does stunts and cubs or brush struggle. Whenever i think that i think that's the thing is everyone just thinks the flowers and just it's selling. Her shoe is a because she was so curious. I'm also interesting about flowers. I found this quote of that. She says about flowers she said. I hate flowers. A paint them because they're of the multiples of they don't move anything saying and i think that talk about her personality she just. I think that's another reason why i was kind of drooled sought to find out more about her. She's got the sort of tough. You know like feminine power that she's just going to carry on regardless paint was she wants a all times in her life. She had people usually men telling her how to pain. What pain you know And she just was tried to just do what she wanted to do. And i just remind thought about her so in preparation for this podcast you have like head the new on the head there something that i didn't realize because i had never heard her speak and i think there's something when you hear an artist's own voice talking about not even just their work just for a d. basis. She is really headstrong. She as an absolute powerhouse through the and she takes absolutely no nonsense is a brilliant interview done. Thank it might be for the whitney on aleve in the show notes. Below joel stained. If you haven't seen on someone interviewing har- at horon at new mexico under like host very very good of you. That i'm the alfred stieglitz. Lets you come up here. She was like i do like. She's amazing she's just amazing. And so two point macho fat. you know. i'll i'll do my way on my terms caps and if you wanna come to the right great you know where the doors and i really respect that she has she such a fascinating person. And the more that. I've dug into this for this recording. I just have so much respect for. She was so. I didn't know for example with the exhibition was that he put that on essentially to smash the idea that she air quotes here as a flora answer and also at the time. I don't know if this is changed but at the time there was no georgia o'keeffe paintings any retrospect collection. Surprising isn't it. And considering you know in two thousand and fourteen jemson. We'd you know the the key piece of this exhibition which was linked to. The teat was bought at auction or forty four and in fourteen. Which at the time completely smashed the record for a female artist but that's term. She hated his velu. She hated being a female so she was like. I am an art or does my gender matter. She was an incredible person under the video. That i was telling you she walks you through her home. It's very serene very minimal. Actually and really beautiful really beautiful so she had style class. Yeah just really coming to show. Units took pilot but to go to new mexico on arm as dan Decide this is wearing spend. The majority of my time machine still came back to new york and destroys stuff but she spent majority of time in new mexico as Throngs goes franche and Such a pioneer in like warrior Doing on our iron and nothing. That's to serie amazing. It's funny actually The the to see of her when she's older because she died in six latinos belives. She actually really reminds me my great grandmother who is far to now in the last two years of the life but some she was. She was a standard. She was like a real kind of that kind of grow. Nothing really the tough times. Cheney reminds me of has there might be some of that. the ira's arrested night with that sort of tough female feminine power. That comes across and i think that comes across in paintings as well. And that's that's the feminine nitro v. It's not lit the flowers in the southside. It's actually the strength that comes through. I think for me. Oh my gosh. Absolutely she just like you said previously you know she has this ranged his one trick. Pony if you will. She is constantly experimenting expanding on really experimenting but she has a love of color which is really really evident but not even just bright vivid useful colors. You know in the painting that we've discussed a streets say new york. It's very dark colored. there's something so really invading very beautiful and if we go on very quickly to talk about you know as we've mentioned. She spent a lot of time in new mexico which was kind of she kind of went through as a happy accident. Actually she was making her way back to new york on a summer holiday with her sister and then they stop by new mexico and she just completely fell in love with this really barren landscape and it was a desert. Know when you say desert what you think what she presents to you on. A canvas couldn't be further away from so many colors they work. You sent me the lack of landscape for me. It just seems to be these beautiful lake almost claw lake foods and these have infamy it sort of tightly transformed tower. Look at landscapes really. I mean like my mind workers analysis. Just look just looking at the shape some full of color. Intone a not a not trying to be precise. She's not trying to capture that stephanie. That that hill mountain or whatever. But it's more sense. Landscapes actually reminds me. Suzanne he about some suzanne's works very least in less sort of impressionist. That came off to him but Just kind of lots of color shape And i love susanna as well and it just really reminds me of that but it was a really kind of every much new mexico before i discovered joe cave and it just made me really fascinated with this past part of america. I've never come slightly obsessed with toge- econ she. You can visit. Goose raunch a. It's more like for retreat. Sin things it's not owned by jewelry. I'm family foundation or that you can go to. I believe her house that she then subsequently lifted an advocate which is down the road but But yeah just really. Won't together that never been like funded opportunity to govern payton clams case myself. It was will. Yeah absolutely no wonder the lake. She makes it less relaxing place in the painting that we're talking about nineteenth archie. She's in her. She's in her thirties. I think she's about thirty seven but she would go on her own and she would be up at the crack of dawn. She converted an old car to be a mobile studio so she could drive vote and congress in the back of the car and paint and this baking heat from morning to night and she just she loved it and think she became almost part of the gate. And that's that's so obvious when you look at that she kind of almost want to mel into it yourself. Yeah absolutely sort of that. Sense of painting will fail that we were saying it's not only his already barren desert it. This is this is how this place makes me feel. And that's what she's painting. I feel so now. I think it's brilliant and then you know as you say. Do you know that this is a police. She returned to again and again you know. She was cut in between sort of new york and new mexico and they in wayne her partner. Alfred passed away. This is a boat. Goodness nineteen forty six. She stays in new york for less aware. Lynch just thinks oh actually. This isn't for me. i think. Nineteen forty nine she. she moves to new mexico permanently. and that's kind of where she stays. She makes endless. She was prolific. she really never stops. And i must say georgia o'keefe museum and i'll leave a link to that website and and the show notes below. They have an amazing online archive of not only her walks. But you know the agents in her house things that she used to wear private photographs that she's taken so you really do get a sense of you. You get measured of who she was and she loves ya. I mean that's the thing. I was quite impressed with south Low of artists sees You know the people looking after lead legacy that survived and by sharing the that sort of stuff unless you actually go there and so it's really amazing archive i'm To see the range of her work Surprising thing. I think is also important to note as we said previously. You know she. She was kind of tarp. This brush with her paintings crate sexual. But very very soon after this you know moving into this offseason. He's in fifties. She became really well noon. In america. people knew her work she was. She was relatively probably one of the leading female artists who had some form of a claim before this point. It really wasn't considered your cozier on okay'd profession for a woman to be a painter so she was freely off against it in terms of representation and breaking the mood julianne. She people do who drop his women that so far sub john for independent female artists pursuing that as a career a note as again you're Acceptable nice absolutely. I think i think source. I was watching a clip back. We have the day of about a school. Judy call go. He might fed. She was saying that she. She's a very feminist. Nine is very feminist office on she Huge fan of cave but dude. I didn't think for herself as a feminist and as you said didn't want to be seen as a woman artist but i think is a woman you can still really really connect with her work because of as much the out has isn't anything else and just that whole sense of really understanding like colored shapes and how respond round environment and a looking at the world's a slightly different way and i think she did she does up beach fla. Nothing i think. I just found that. Quite empowering is elected someone having their own voice and and just ready putting out on the canvas absolutely and for anyone that. Hasn't you know that wasn't in london or has never had this respective ducal institute's website. They've got a wealth of information. And also the mitya's eum in new york. The whitney as well as louis ammo links to all these things in the show notes or even just giggle georgia. O'keefe there's fantastic very short introduction bedrooms who she as artisan if you a very quick overview. She a new seat of our time range of works how powerful are on. Yes she's just someone that continues to surprise me. The more i dug into are the more. I so respect are one of the other works that you saints which i was like. Oh my goodness. This is the work that i seek. Because there's very very famous photograph when she's in her seventies and she's in the days are One of her paintings on an easel and correct me for monkey are but this is the painting. Yeah he's a think the painting looking at it. I just saved my great grandma. But some it's the The revised over the mice because she's defiantly standing next this massive massive camber in the middle of the desert bannon's feet. And if you ever see the interview she she comes as she does. Come across as so. It was likely grumpy old women but she's just trying to maintain her unique voice into thank try and siam these other things just put something on may. Just look at the works. Yeah pelvis series We red with yellow is a Started by szott. Pick up biden's from the desert floor and began to paint them but she doesn't. She paints some of them. The skulls and things like that but quite often. She's painting this shapes in between so that the holes in in an pelvis she's looking at sky three. The hull says much about what's going on around the object painting the object itself and it creates these amazing shapes they shapes comeback again and again in her work whether the shapes in bones or the shapes of rocks got a whole series of rock paintings. That was in the retrospective just have our unique perspective looking at the world Which i love. This is really good representation of what i love when you said Scores act. I can't remember if this was the richest victor for note because like of works I don't know how you feel. But i needed to set down after i left. I just fail ended up being something like sixty nab nineteen ribbons every room with a different theme and when i laughed and then you hit the gift shop which was just everything in your face. I was like whoa. I understand why there's a cafe on to set in the member of this is in the interest of tastes. No but i. When i saw the title i was like. Oh my gosh. I didn't know this was a woman. And when you say that i knew that and you look circulate of course because you can see the Cracks but on her handling of color. that kind of almost want to die to the negative space into that yellow to see what went on to the sky and the sun and thoughts the beyond. It's like the beyond what she saying. Major from Bit like to the the street painting. It's it's the sort of the end I think she's you know there's something about painting. anything to do with bones. The i think he's really connects with motown say or any kind of mortality. Because it's it's it's like well. This is what we this is who we are. We left which just the saying. We'll see the animals biden's that she was picking up shoes. So you're looking at that imagining that animal's life so if you're looking at it three that perspective you can't help but think think about those things and i think pops that's something that was going on ahead of the time collapse You know the idea of morality on using skulls and bruins two remained. You're over there and painting morality. This is what eventually you will. You will be reduced to as a theme. That's between in the history of art since the beginning of time really it's a constant theme recurs but she she picks up and makes it hard And she kind of you know underlying Remained in your confronting you with with death and and people tend to. I don't know kind of shy away from the idea of bowen's thank oh to what i don't want to paint that ever. Anyone less things ever done any sort of still lifes you know no one truly warning towards okay. We're gonna talk. So i just think she. She has deals with things in such an unusual and even when she paints fill skulls of animals that she's come across the desert but died she includes new. it's included very of surrealist. Almost incredible of desert landscape ching corporates flowers and just a lot going on in her paintings. Even when this look like and i think that she's brilliant. But you have to look again at these wants to see again as always good to go and leave us at these unspent some time because you know even if you go back to the new mexico you know the the painting a few minutes ago. The hell's the mountains. You can just look at that and go on. Its hosing maintenance but actually when you really spend time looking at it looking at the colors the twins just takes you somewhere else and you know. I think it's very much instagram. Thing of get three. You have to move vote in these. You know you owe it to yourself too expensive. Let's be interesting what you're saying about going back because oh safe this Looking at work. Can there was a loss. retrospectives but the world things. That weren't in there that i still hadn't seen though i found billion tha that own out is accomplished. That hasn't seen that. And as you said so prolific. But also while i thought what i really really recognized is having had to resist Influence in my mice Studied history In the back of my mind is an style alike. I realized by really really delving in more recently. Just how much her work is had. An influence on my. I'm out work. Land paintings sort of like unknowing way. Sort of the use of color and shapes and things like unduly on daily negative but just sort of its subconsciously. I think seeped didn't that. And so i'm looking at who pieces alarm going. Oh my god. That's a bit like that piece. I did a couple of years ago or this is pace. I've done recently in Half pay because it was just like. Oh gosh i think she's had way more influence on me than actually even realized just because of scope of the work. How many pace issues might. Oh i love that. I love that. And that's the thing you just don't know when subconsciously. These things are barnes on the brain and when they stick with you and when you have that moment without a work of art or an artist who you believe meyer and you could look at them for being days. never get boring it. It does vary subconsciously cheapen to know. Even your own are And the color schemes. That you you enjoy in the you decorate your home west but you sent me the final image that you save me. You sent me a link to a series that you have also done on your on your website. Because as as she said. You're an artist as well and this was your horizon series. Yeah stars as like. When she's this is a paste that she did in the early seventies. She was eighty four around that time. And you starting to lose your. I saw and i so what was really amazing when you look at the work. She was doing this time. She's just bringing everything down to its complete. Simplicity it's just blocks of color. Will i law or brush stroke. It's nothing too complicated. It's actually goes back to some of this stuff that she was experimenting in her early early career. Ready experimenting with abstraction and and sort of without me realizing think about it too much. I think it so influenced by works Horizons pace a series a completed now. But i might get back them where. It's it's just looking at horizons in mice minimalist form. It's the blocks of color. You just three blocks kulla using the paint on the texture of the paint create the light and shade so the anytime of the day you look at the they will slightly different the texture in the pain and the way the light in the room is is he's siegman it goes to the hosting Kiefer's to start looking at something and painting feel about it. Rather than what said because some of the colors amusing in that horizon series on colors. necessarily see seven the mall on horizons whether they be the lounge. The see. She just Field pace he just e. Can't help fill sailing that. She's she's she's. She's contemplating her aged contemplating she using color in three d. Way this slightly within this white lining thread on this dog Sunflower halfway between show. Whether we're looking at ceo amounting rangel's something in short is and i think that it's definitely the sense of a looking at I horizon and when we look at horizons. It's all about place in time. it's it's out posts presently any where we are two years the president and behind us as possible. What is is what we're looking at feature or a. We contemplating are Again So i think that's what's going on in this case. I think we'll horizons. Generally differ lock people. I could not agree more. That is just new. And but you have focused incubated when you look a horizon or a sunset or anything. Thank you you instantly enter a motive reflection or you acknowledge your presence that you're in sometimes. It's really beautiful. Think about people Says you know what horizons do. And perhaps she is an artist. you know. it's cold the on stage. She was an her of late seventies. Noli eighties lee. At sorry by this point. Yeah just oh. I not tonight i just think. Not new beautifully beautifully And as we've as we don't know if we've mentioned akif went on to live a very long and healthy life am i mean. She lost her eyesight of very near the end but she left to the right age of ninety eight on continuing making right until the injury. She had an helped she was. She'd moved into a house and advocate. Which is another problem new mexico and she the was a family. Oh the were helping her Just sort of unite with her so dates type stuff on the young man who was helping richly of cheese paints know just help create her work because some Frail as you say he was kind of our. Is i think Yeah it's It's still working round. The end was nizing. The i didn't the ones sent me but Is really lovely to look at some of the paintings of how she lived in albuquerque on the stole that she keeps painting overnight. Ganassi's big double door and it's like a square and she just paints overnight again and and whilst it's a really simple image it just there will really compelling painting them different times of the day so the light is different in the shadow as the different and Yeah just it. Just starting she still exploring she still being quizzed curious right up to the end Just really amazing. Maybe a nice lake back to somebody like zion. Or maybe one of the impressionists. They beat the same subject and again and again and again studied. Same thing but different teams of the d different teams of year and the effect. That light has on one one point. Have you can look at it. One minute and then five minutes lee certain. It's slightly different somehow. It didn't see earlier awards. You say a great comparison show of suzanne landscape. When i was like oh my gosh i would never would appeared o keefe onces on work because it's just these like you said it's the impression at the is the feeling they want to get more than of having the kneel in the heads of accurate copies lately unless of the richness of the color which i think is very similar as well as like that. Sort of the west like Like wanna touch it like Molded or something. I'm not quite sure how to describe it Yet definitely disney may have thought kind of some sensibility bouncer. Joe i have loved talking to you so so much about georgia. O'keefe has been such a learning experience for me as you don't give me a complete new appreciation of powerhouse of a woman that she has an. Is there anything you want to see that you think or have touched on the ship before we saw him dole or you know for someone perhaps who hasn't seen o'keefe's work before. Is there a nice starting. Yeah well there's a really good documentary Dumb by the imagine series of bbc. I think it was she when the title respective was on which i believe is on each And it's definitely Go into his story really well like thank Tobe so i think that's a good starting point but just giggle around this amazing pinterest spills out there unseen. I didn't think was right about hurries. As something that anyone who anyone will like with the cityscapes or the mountains older flowers even all the more abstract paces in still lives the skulls etc. i think. I think that she's goes to low to to offer anyone who's interested in now. I would completely agree in preparation for this. I was listening to The great women artists or cast actually ends. They haven't On keith and cheesy runs that she is interviewing one. All georgia o'keefe's biographer. But she's one of the lead. Curiouser office Terge america and. She said that she didn't actually knew about o keefe At new mexico paintings and she didn't think very much joy the cushy Across really thought too much often but what she really liked was her sister skates and then it said she said to car to actually go to the desert where she was painting an actually see the environment because she was born and raised york. Stay should never let so she couldn't really. She couldn't really empathize with what she was trying to create so for me. I wonder if that's why when i went to the restorative. I really chimed with st cds. Because that's what i knew on as Cd's went on and on as throwing as it was. I was like whole. Whoa that's getting away. Surrealistic in can get there at times. But i'm just so struck a chord with me. But i was like okay. I wonder if is not and you know you travel and you expunge remained with art when she when you travel less over are up to kind of do up the leaving. And but yeah. It was just a very interesting things. I'd be interested to hear from anyone lessening if they've Desert series may vessel holding of fishing or people love it if they've experienced some of travel in a desert some way or that various baron colorful landscapes. It's just an interesting. This is a really great gallery of i fully basted tales which is one of the first places. The dude ricky visited in new mexico cooled western gallery can find them on instagram. And they sort of specialize an all from this area arms mazing amazing pieces on there and a lot of influence by jojoy kief lots of landscapes around the so He won't find woke temporary office. You're looking at least landscapes that starts at checkout. Oh i love that well. I'll definitely look up on in this show notes below and joe. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you own. Thank you so much for coming on unspoken about georgia. O'keefe i think is so obvious to the listeners. For me recording with you you just have this love impassioned which is just so genuine for work and i just think it much and so i did have one question before we go on. It's a big one so as joe's our history podcast and my final question and you can take us as large or ads novel to you as you wish spots my question is why is our ooh will also the aspect of yeah. It's imposed Everyone or today vice questions and hey whatever whatever you want to go stay. They will likely soon. I think about it. I think that they are she the same same thing is i think all all allows you and this is true for me actually. I'm that's a whole other conversation but it allows you to express things that you couldn't express in other ways. Take me verbally Right down it's amazing. How a color abroad strike fool shape can help be like something. You'll fading in a way. That a word con. I think that's my main main reason while is important and that's and helps and therefore held as people express themselves how a sort of make sense of the world and so funny. You said that they're actually because that reminded me of something that by o'keefe and that's what she said Color is that foreman shapes is that she can express something better in a form the what she can and ward cinch. There's a coup that irate somewhere make the on metropolitan museum of art's website where she says words there. No that's good. I remember that one. I should have said that. So they are at no just another moment with though key job before you go where compete during office. Website is jay Oats with two ts. E. j. o. H. salt as our dot com gerald And i'm asks jr. it's off on instagram and facebook. amazing. And i will link. All of that in the shooting was below as well. Finally thank you so so much for coming on Take care talk the youtube on there. You have at the end of season. One of the joys art history podcast first and foremost thank you so much for coming on and speaking so brilliantly georgia o'keefe i really loved researching for this episode and i really love speaking. It was such an chasing conversation on. It's always fantastic to speak to someone who has such a passion and love for the arches so thank you so much. You were the perfect gift in season one. Don't be sad. I will be back later in the year. Arraigned about september with a brand new season and a whole lot of historical clinton's. In the meantime we have about thirty sex episodes including ones. There's plenty to lessen to and to realize. And as well as lessening on spotify an idiot or whatever you find your podcast you can also find every single as youtube video on our history. Youtube channel legal linked to that and the shooting blue on the nice thing with youtube. Video is whenever i speak about. We insert images if she's of running around doing giggling images. If you've enjoyed the podcast please make sure to lake. The unsubscribe will not resonate resort when we return and september with season. Two as was also hopes framed podcast. And hey if you've really enjoyed it and what's tell a friend or family member it please feel free to do so worded as the c is always the base for them off advertising. If you want to get in touch with anything discuss this episode or of course. The entire season was history. You can email me. Jewish art history at or can d- me on instagram was art history. And while you're there is well was always amazing to hear people who've enjoyed the podcast and hearing highlights inspired point some weight or how much you've learned from it so it really means a lot music touch and also is brilliant. When you get in touch with my guess is wrote taylor directly that you really enjoy listening really means a lot so if you want to leave a review or penury message then why not paying your message to see you enjoy this forecast juwan and for the last time for season one. I've been joe mclaughlin. Your host on resident art historian. Thank you so much for lessening. I absolutely loved together. And i look forward to welcoming you next time for season. Two of the jewish art history podcast and september until then keep learning and remember art as i always robie. I'll see you in september.

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