2 Episode results for "solomon soula"
111: Profiling Toni Morrison
"Welcome to pure nonfiction podcast interviewing documentary filmmakers. I'm tom powers the documentary programmer for the toronto international film festival and artistic director of doc n._y._c. and this episode i talked to portrait photographer and filmmaker timothy greenfield sanders his most recent documentary is toni morrison the pieces i am profiling the nobel prize winning author her novels include the bluest eye soula sawn of solomon and beloved in the film. She talks about her motives to right sometimes uh-huh you nudged and sometimes you're just searching to make the writing interesting to me. It's not just writing. It's i. I don't know what this means that i have to find out timothy has a long history with morrison. He photographed her multiple. Times comes over three decades in two thousand six. She inspired him to undertake a film series called. The blacklist. Timothy directed three blacklist films in collaboration with elvis mitchell interviewing distinguish black figures from different fields. We hear the phrase blacklist or is that not you. Blacklists blacklist mean people to list that don't work anymore. Get treated like black people mothers others with his stories his cool. This isn't history to me black culturally. I had to fight. Virtually every single thing writing for me is keith. Who are we and what are we doing. Here just wanted to be somebody. I'm not the ambulance chasing the ambulance and never thought that i was only worth what they said. You get what you're caller event. Somebody else's problem. It's never been on really can be persuaded to think differently often identity human identity gone pimples. They talk about it. There's always going to kind of be an overreaction one way or the other for timothy's tony morrison film he collaborated with interviewer sandra guzman she was previously the editor in chief of latina magazine and conducted interviews for timothy's these films the women's list in the latino list the heart of tony morrison the pieces. I am is a long interview with the author. It's bands her childhood al`thood in lorain ohio her first career as a book editor and her effort to become a writer as a single mother of two sons. The film also includes testimonies from her friends and admirers like oprah winfrey. One of the characters says at the end of song of solomon and she was loved and she was does loved that is the anthem for any life. You can come to the planet and do whatever you do accomplish accomplish. Whatever you accomplish award no awards degrees no degrees successes no successes i think she captured the essence sense of what it means to be human to be alive and to have done well here on earth and we can say the same anything for her and she is my interview with timothy took place in may at the i._f._c. center enter before a live audience that included writer hilton ails who's interviewed in the film less than three months after our conversation. Morrison passed away at age eighty eight to begin. I asked timothy how he first met morrison in the early eighties that was <hes> <hes> when tar baby had just come out so <hes> song of solomon soula and bluest i had been published and tony was doing some press. <hes> i shot it for the cover of soho news which was kind of hipster weekly <hes> back then and you know we. We got along immediately lianne. We we talked a little bit about literature but particularly talked about the neighborhood. I lived in and i remember kind of walking tony to get a cab at the end and and we stayed in touch and then i started to do pictures for her for books <hes> particularly <hes> later on on a lot of the jacket covers and press stuff and <hes> i alluded to the time in two thousand six that was from the opera she in britain libretto for margaret gardner and we were doing pictures then <hes> for that and this beginning of the blacklist and so what were those sessions like come on what was the session with a photography session with her like compared to other authors that you think that it's always about getting the subject to trust you. Oh and that was something that yeah. Tony said to me a couple years ago. She said i. I let i let you see me you know and and the subject allows you to to get in there. It's never the other way around. You can never break down a subject really. I think i think the subject has to kind of let you in and tony trusted me early on i think in the picture show it you know we were a very collaborative portrait work that we did together so she had given you the inspiration to do this series at you embarked on with elvis mitchell the blacklist. Can you talk about how it went from the seed of an idea that she planted to what became attorney wanted to do. Black divas and i'm not an opera lover particularly enough that i would wanna. They do a whole project on opera but it started me thinking about just sort of african american talent in general that there was more than just oprah and barack obama they were all these other people that we could maybe interview and my idea then which now everyone does but was to do this sort of direct to camera <hes> talk where the where the subject is looking right at camera and it's just a very powerful way to do it. In those days earl morris was doing it. A couple of other filmmakers used it but it was rare and it was also my portraiture come to life so if you look at my portraits they're always director cameras single light source and it kinda gray backdrop so i wanted to turn that into film and one of the tricks. It's not a trick. One of the ideas here was that tony talks to camera. Only everyone else hilton ails right here. Second-row talks off camera <hes> they talk about tony and and i thought that could work. I've never seen it in documentary but the the main subject is looking at us and we have a kind of connection that way and then the others are talking thing about her and <hes>. How did you convince johnny morrison if it took convincing to do this film devoted to her you know i think when when the first blacklist film came out we all sat around thinking everyone in this film deserves a feature film this you know there's so much there's so many interesting stories and talents but tony was always the first in my mind tony was the first is set for the blacklist so oh it also a couple of years ago i realized tony was eighty four eighty five eighty eight now that if i'm gonna do it this time and i reached out to her and we talked about it and she you know she didn't say no and that's always a good sign in with tony and that really gave me the courage to cut it fine the funding and go back to her and say i have the money to do it in this was it's gonna be on television or the american masters was the idea back then it became because of sundance film that will now be in theaters. We're very excited with magnolia <hes> but i think tony you trusted me to do it. So what was the the process of interviewing her like. Sandra guzman who is credited in the film did the interviews didn't feel that i i am enough of tony scholar to do the interviews sandra drives a car that says soula on the license plate so at in love's tony deeply and really <hes> <hes> was very very eager to do this film and supportive and <hes> you know you who director you kind of create a space where everyone feels comfortable <hes> we. We did that the interviews the tony at her home so we set up apple studio. They're essentially a backdrop and did them there where she was more comfortable. The others all came to my studio in the east village and again. That's something you you do where you get. The person comes in and you offer some tea or coffee or you make them feel by the time they get to the set that they can trust this atmosphere miss fear now. There must be hundreds of people who are tony morrison. Fans are feel some connections that work that you could have chosen from in your in you very selective and deliberate about the people you did put into the film. Can you talk about curated collection of voices. It's it's very much. Tony's list <hes> there was a longer list <hes> that i had a lot of names on and tony took a nice pencil cross off and i i also you don't like to interview people and not put them in the film. There's one person we interviewed who's not in this film which peter sellars the theater director her and only because it was an easy way to pull seven minutes out of the film it's magnificent piece on shakespeare spirit tony <hes> desdemona that she wrote and othello and it's kind of conversation that happened between them at princeton and it's being the d._v._d. I guess but it's a wonderful wonderful piece but we pulled it and i don't like to do that. I liked if i'm gonna ask you to give me your time and sit for an interview you and be part of this. You should expect to be in the film. I mean there are so many extraordinary interviews on your sanchez. <hes> of course <hes> angela davis this still oprah's stands out as oprah and she brings so much energy to <hes> to her interview. I be remiss if i didn't ask you about filming with oprah we we went to oprah and we were told we have thirty minutes and we had thirty minutes and over gives you gold you gotta. You know she's very good at that. <hes> articulating a perfect kind of statement in a way right and she she actually broke down at one point. We didn't put it in the film but she was very emotional on she said at one point. I didn't expect to cry today. You know talking about tony morrison but oprah's deeply connected to tony you know did a lot with the book club of course but also really loves her and and you know it took me a year to arrange the interview but we got it. I've just heard anecdotally we we showed the film at the the miami film festival why work a couple months ago and <hes> i remember people saying i didn't know that chapter about her publishing career and other other people will say something else that they learned from <hes> from this film and and i wonder when you entered it obviously known her. You've done your research. It's about was their areas of her life or career that you came in extra curious about. I think the publishing career at random house is most people don't know about it and it's very important. <hes> you know there was a lot. This could be ten hours this film the problem ms this is such a gigantic life and we got so much material from the interviewees that it could have been easily three hours. It could have been in a ah. There's so much more there but we had to make decisions about what was important. I think <hes> her family. You understand her family in this you understand her where her grandparents come from her. You know all of the travels of her family. The migration great migration. You know the use of art art in the film is something i'm very proud of as well you see jacob lawrence's paintings in and that scene there when he talks about leaving coming to ohio so we try to incorporate other there's twenty two african american artists who gave us work for the film the the opening is by nicolini thomas who chad is here my producers who's a big fan and i. I didn't know mclean. I i loved her. I've always liked her work very much so i just called her and said you know we're doing this. Film on tony morrison jews consider doing a kind of collage opening waiting for us and she said i'm in you know and and that was the reaction of everyone who we reached out to from kerry james marshall to cara walker to all loran is simpson all of the different artists and and the music about ninety eight percent of the music is one one composer catherine bostick who's a musician from los angeles who we found on the internet and is just a brilliant brilliant composer imposer in the song. The end is hers. She sings it and she composed almost all the music. It doesn't shy on the wall where secrets burn brighter walk to the edge and dance with the duty free here in this conversation you serve of established. You're bona fides with your long history of tony morrison and she felt comfortable to have you do this film <hes> yet. Still people must look at this listened and thank you know. How does he get to be the guy who tells the tony morrison film and i wonder if you can talk about how you've come to answer that question for yourself. You mean the the white band who tells the tony morrison story <hes> you know i think it really comes back to trust that tony was very <hes> <hes> familiar with what i had done in film the blacklist series of course the latino list the outlets the translates the women's list all of those films about identity and she for the women's tony wrote the introduction and read it for us so she's she's very aware of these films and i think she knew what kind of filmmaker i am. I am and i also made it very tony had kind of been with me and other film home in the film. She saw what my crew was. How diverse was how much that meant to all of us to do that. <hes> tony makes decisions. It's kind of that kind of comes down to that and i think she i hope she saw the film and she's her comment. Was i like her <music>. I want to thank timothy greenfield sanders for speaking with me his film tony morrison the pieces. I am now playing in theaters released by magnolia pictures eventually come to p._b._s.'s american master series <music>. Thanks to our team series producer and northern swan and web designer cross ross strategy our theme music is composed by andre williams and our executive producer is rafael and they housing you can follow us on twitter instagram or facebook at pure nonfiction. I'm tom powers. You can follow me on twitter at t. h. O. m. powers you can read our show notes. Learn about live events and sign up for our newsletter at pure nonfiction dot net <music> <music> <music> yeah.
Culture Gabfest: Super-Abled
"The following podcast contains explicit language. I'm steven mccarron this. These late culture gabfest super abled edition. It's wednesday august fourteenth two thousand nineteen on today's show. The nightingale is the latest film from jennifer kent. It's the follow up to her. Horror sensation that baba duke this one isn't unsparing really brutal look at the colonial origins of modern australia and then the boys is a wickedly dark satire on the m._c. You the marvel cinematic universe but also really on the hyper commercial commercialization personalization of everything superheroes particular and finally an absolute giant tony morrison nobel laureate one of america's greatest novelists and public intellectuals wilson died. We examined a monumental legacy with sarah jackson who is professor at the annenberg school at the university of pennsylvania joining me today as each harris new culture editor at the new york times asia. Welcome back to the show hello. It's great to be back in jail gabe roth who is i think that's described as the boss of me. I i am the boss of you steve so <hes> please stay in line. Thanks for having me so you really are filling in for juliette turner then i i absolutely am and <hes> i we'll do my best. I haven't had a boot stamping on my face and a longtime <hes> while we record this show so really feels like old times the warm sensation of the tread on my eye i sock it see if you listeners can can hear the squelching of fibers on on steve's izhak it over the course of this episode very apt apps for our nightingale. No gosh got there really quickly all right. I should say if got summer cold number two so apologies for my voice all right. Shall we dive in with <hes> the nightingale. This episode of culture gabfest is sponsored by how to raise a parent a new podcast from slate studios dairypure dairy pure believes the world would be a better place if we reconnected with what's pure and innocent in ourselves and each other. That's what how to raise. A parent is about shifting our perspectives as his parents so we can learn from moments of purity that we see in our kids stay tuned for a special segment later in the show with host mallory casten. Listen and subscribe to how to raise a parent wherever wherever you get your podcast clare is an irish woman and as such. She is the subject of the british empire when we meet her. She's been banished. Van demons land plan to what is now known as tasmania the darkest outpost of then of new south wales which was now better known as australia there. She suffers brutality at the hands of repeal overlords. Somewhat what brutality in fact she sets off on an improbable journey in search of revenge on the british officers who have destroyed her life to survive in the bush though she must bring with her billy an aboriginal regional tracker what follows journey to the heart of an absolute darkness <hes> of racism and misogynistic sadism. It is a very intense film from jennifer can't can't she of the baba duke it stars aisling frontier llosa's claire and by kali ghanem bar. I hope i've pronounced that right as billy he they're both remarkable. Let's listen to a clip dangerous riding with that all your head off. You need to move the move boy. Wait wait in all the wrong way if you want them. Soldiers went this way are you should let me start with view. This film is nothing if not unflinching. It's hard to watch without flinching oneself. <hes> filmgoers have now infamously really walked out of screenings. They find it simply too brutal. I'm very curious to know what you made this movie <hes> brutal is definitely. I think the first word that comes this to my mind and i did find myself watching this film a lot of times looking at staring at the corner of the screen so you know to avoid having to do the moments when you think something terrible is going to happen often it usually does <hes> it had to avert my eyes a lot <hes> but ah i have very mixed feelings about this and i'm still trying to process it because i i saw the movie now the recording this just two days ago so it's still fresh in my mind but i'm also still working through my thoughts on it and i came out of it wanting to read some aboriginal writers on this movie it just because i think so much conversation around this. This movie has been about the very <hes> unflinching <hes> rape scenes and dan the violence against women especially but also the average characters in the movie but so much of the the the rage has been about the rape ape and not so much the <hes> the way in which this story in my opinion sort of posits a weird equivalence between what the lead character <unk> claire a ghost through n. What's her her guide. <hes> billy goes through and billy's the aboriginal character and so it felt like a weird sort of attempt to make these stories seem similar in one the same when i think we're dealing with two very different experiences to different things and i googled so far have not been able to find any aboriginal writers who have written about this. If there are i would love if like listeners could send them our way. <hes> i put out a tweet a poll put out a call it on twitter and got crickets gets <laughter> so <hes> i really wanna. I wanna know what what they think of this. Because obviously i am not aboriginal and a lot of the information in this movie that i know jennifer kent like did so so much research and did actually have like an adviser and input from people in the aboriginal community <hes> but i would love to to hear from someone who had nothing to do with this fallon <hes> about what they make it so there's kind of two angles of criticism for this movie. <hes> one is <hes> <hes> <hes> as i said is originates in a you know i mean it's almost it's unlikely to go see this movie without knowing you're going to in fact. I don't think you should go see this movie. Not not knowing that you're going to witness an absolutely brutal rape in fact more than one but one in particular that's as gruesome as anything that i've ever seen on screen and so from one angle comes the criticism that the movie is is too brutal somehow and from the other angle comes the criticism that i think issues getting had a little bit which is that it's the green book. <hes> you know it's or has some of the problems of of not exactly white savior xavier and the noble let let's just say that white saver white savior and noble savage are stereotypes that are present in the film in some respect <hes>. Would you make of this wild cinematic experience yeah. It's really interesting and i i. I think the fact that like a few minutes into this discussion. We've already so much complex material. That's come up from what both of you have just said i. I think this is a movie that while i was watching it it felt at first very <unk> sort of dramatically straightforward. It's i it all. Although as you guys have said there are some. There's very difficult material. That's often hard to watch and hard to stomach it. It feels for most of its run time. It feels like a genre movie. It feels like a western. There's there's characters chasing one another through a frontier kind of setting and in a way that it's not difficult to follow or to understand the action <hes> it's it doesn't feel obscure at all <hes> and yet the material tiriac and the the ways in which the setting and the material <hes> is unfamiliar at least to me as an american viewer <hes> it brings up a lot of interesting and complicated stuff that i think the movie probably doesn't resolve successfully <hes> you you both i think described this movie his unflinching and it's certainly true that it shows us things that are difficult to look at it. Shows us the the the rape scenes are hard to watch all though what we see mostly mostly as is the face of the character who's being raped that in a way makes it harder to watch there are also just horrible images of violence against the bodies of aboriginal people which i found almost more difficult or at least difficult to stomach as as the rape scenes at the same time i think there are a couple of ways in which the movie does flinch from the substance of the story that it's telling i usually sort of getting the movie brings together are a lot of the horrors perpetuated by english colonial rule right violence against women involving irish people in violence against <hes> average on on indigenous people all of it. It's sort of grouped together as part of the same horror <hes> committed by the british empire and and that's you know ah that's complicated. That's a complicated thing to do and then there's one seen about two thirds of the way through in which we meet a an englishman who is nice. Who's it as soon as i came. I was like oh my y- i'm sorry to cut you off that that was the point where it felt like tiptoed into the green book terrain i don't. I don't think it's at all i think it's i think the only reason we're really throwing that title out there. It's just because it's like close in our memory just won best picture <hes> but i when that character showed up it fell into the trap of every movie like this no matter how good intentions are where there has to be one decent white male as an anglo low american white person watching this movie. I had the experience of feeling just extremely powerfully uncomfortable for most of the length of the movie in a way that i think was was productive and part of the filmmakers attention and then that scene happens. There's a benevolent englishman with a northern accent who invites the aboriginal character ability to join them at the table for a meal whose wife is still racist. He keeps giving him like sure. Dart like is and and watching that scene i i i felt a kind of relief like oh look. I could be that guy. That's the guy i would've been if i had been back. There and i think that's a flinch. I think that's the movie flinching shing from from what it's trying to show us. Let let me push back on both you <hes> because i- that scene stuck out that sticks out in the movie you're going to notice it. It's one person the one white colonia colonialist colonialist who stands fourth of something other than a complete moral sadist <hes> and <hes> i to gabe like you as an i anglo american male viewer latched onto him as a o._s. in the film and then of course reflected on that and hated myself even were deeply for doing it but there's a remarkable things thing that happens at the end of the scene. She knows exactly what she's doing that scene. It's the final humiliation of billy that that breaks him down. It's the one scene in the movie where he begins to weep because he's been forced into the position of having to recognize the quote unquote extraordinary heroic benevolence of this white character for simply allowing him to eat at the same table and i think in that scene he says maybe in in his aboriginal language. I can't remember this is my country like i'm supposed to feel overwhelmed with gratitude towards you. Finally lifting me up to i level and letting me eat the food you've cooked. I'm supposed to regard you as a christ like figure fuck you. I thought that was actually one of the moments where the movie was really in control of something like a serious moral ambiguity. Yes i have a different reading of billy's breaking down. I should be clear that that steve's monologue. Just there is not the monologue unlocked. The character speaks that was i think your gloss on that scene and i i read it a little differently. I saw it as the the the being treated with humanity and empathy sort of opens opens him up to emotion in a way i found real i really i really disagree. I think it's just an absolute moment of complete humiliation for him. I resolve this for us. You know i in. I had forgotten about that moment. I think because what comes before it just sort of the clouded look look just cast a pall over that whole scene for me <hes> but yeah i mean i guess if now recalling it i can see steve's interpretation. I also just still don't understand what that scene is doing in there. I look i didn't was not alive at the time i'm sure there were nice nice english people <hes> in tasmania at that time but i to me it just did not serve serve a purpose in terms of of it just felt like what exactly what you felt k which is it's there to just. Just make sure that we know that there were good. People who who who existed back then <hes> and i think that had it been had have <unk> have had she gone as far like if she had only the men mandated invited him to stay but like he didn't let them sit at the table. I probably would have felt a little better about it because it just would have felt more true <hes> but who am i say what's true because again i didn't live <hes> but to to my to just to my personal biases as like it just it just rings hollow to me but yes steve. I can also see that interpretation as well. You're i'd love to go back and rewatch that scene. I'd like to say a couple of things quickly before we the eggs the segment of first of all. I'd like to ask really a couple of things i i to me. I did think that the direction especially the first the extent one can view it this passionately for the first third of the movie maybe half the movie is very tight. It's incredibly manipulative <hes> <hes> obviously but it's also she's she's an extraordinary user of the camera in order to tell stories concisely with an enormous amount of emotional while beyond the obvious exploitation of aspect of the possibly exploitation aspect of the story so i i that stood out i never i was mesmerized by the film i loved both of the leads needs i do think that he's incredible <hes> by colleague <hes> gun on bar as billy. I felt queasy towards the end. Though who is the movie is trying in good conscience to bring these two people closer and closer together the explain the the harley abused irish woman who insists assists on her identity as colonial subject of the english and the <hes> black australian aboriginal australian who's in the process of literally watching a genocide of his people unfold before him and it's it's highly personalized to these people in their slowly brought closer and closer together and she's she's. She's an unreconstructed racist when and mix that plane when she discovers she has to be led through the bush by billy and i just can't can't i mean she tried to do. It's in such good conscience but i gave me a little bit of gimme a little bit of an itch. I agree with that and i. I think her attempt to sort of create. A between the two of them kind of community of the oppressed feels manipulated feels as though no it's it's her moving pieces around on board by contrast at the internal dynamics of the soldiers of the colonists on the remote outpost where are there guarding these prisoners and and exploiting these indigenous laborers in is really lovely and beautifully done the way in which this this awful sadistic community military community reproduces its own conditions of of patriarch in violence just feels completely real and and not manipulated at all it gave me a kind of understanding into the way those sorts of oppressive systems function <hes> that i thought was really useful and and and a very successful contrast to the way in which some of the other materials sometimes feels forced i do also i mean i've said a a lot of things about what i didn't like about the movie but i also feel like there is a lot to really appreciate about it. Including the performances <hes> and i also think that you know for all of of the economists i feel about the way in which you know like i said she tries to create these parallels sort of distinct parallels between the two. I i do appreciate the fact you know in interview. She gave with elissa wilkinson in at vox. She talked about how <hes> one of the things that was important to her was to have whenever for the aboriginal characters were speaking their language. You understood what they're saying so they're subtitles. <hes> you know she jennifer can noted that usually when you watch these types of films was the native people are the indigenous people are talking but you can't understand them and that creates a barrier and it creates even more this other ism that <hes> is often present in movies and t._v. Shows so. I really appreciate those little details. Even when other things were kind of <hes> nerve wracking to art our nerve wracking to contemplate <hes> all right well the move is the nightingale go see it but before warned and we would let them know you think about it so email us when you have all all right moving on i right now is the moment in our podcast. We talk about our sponsor gabe. What do you have. This episode of. The culture is sponsored by hyatt centric tune tune into somewhere new with high at central hotels hotels that put you at the heart of the action connecting you to your cities food culture and of course music from miami to milan and everywhere. We're in between high at centric hotels point you toward the hidden gems hotspots local sounds your destination has to offer enjoy choice amenities and playful details that uniquely capture the spirit spirit of each city helping you get a feel for the neighborhood before you even set foot out the door. If you're ready for an exciting off the beaten path adventure get started with hyatt centric when when you start here you can discover well everywhere explore our hotels around the world at hyatt centric dot com all right before we go any further. I'm sure we have some business to attend to gabriel. You're the boss man. Why don't you go ahead and take that. We do have some business <hes> so first off in slate podcasts business. Wanna let you know about an upcoming live show that the gist with mike pesca is putting on at the bell house in brooklyn takes place september sixteenth <hes> if you're a fan of mike mike pesca of the gist or even of comedy in general <hes> you should make an effort to attend this show <hes> mike is going to answer the question what is so funny about comedy anyway he will have actual live comedians by his side to discuss ongoing changes in the business of making people laugh. You'll have hari kondabolu and <hes> other comedians to be announced to get tickets slate. Dot com slash live twenty dollars but less than that if you're a slight plus member. That's the just the bell house on september sixteenth slate dot com slash live for tickets <hes> on slate plus today. We have more to say about the nightingale including the somewhat confounding ending. We're going to spoil that movie for you on slate plus so <hes> stick around if you're a member if you're not had a member of why aren't you remember yet sign up for slate plus. It's our membership program. It's a great way to support this show and all other work just thirty five dollars for your first year you get <hes> no ads in any of your slate podcasts you get an extended version of this and many of our other. Most popular shows tons of other great benefits. <hes> if you're a culture gab fest fan go to slate dot com slash culture plus and join slate plus today all right. Let's get back to it. I was born super abled so says one of the soups coops <hes> the superheroes who populate the amazon t._v. Show the boys. The soups in this televisual universe are more than just celebrated super friends of humankind their i pee intellectual property. They are marketed monetize up to their glowing super-powered eyeballs. The seven are the seven of the best and brightest such heroes or at least the most easily publicized our own outright by a private corporation vote international and are by and large group of entitled preening corrupt nihilists they they are in a word celebrities they are posed by a shadowy group known as the boys show kicks off when he huey an ordinary electronics store clerk is deputized into the boys for reasons that i will not spoil the show from the creators of preacher. Let's listen to a clip. I was born super. Abel's my mom mom was thrilled. She took me to all the little miss hero patterns but hated it. Oh i can still smell the hairspray but at the q._n._a. They always asked me what my wish was and i always said to save the world and the judges just chuckled like it was cute but it wasn't a joke to me since when did hopeful and naive become the same the thing i mean. Why would you get into this business if not to save the world. That's all i have ever wanted it and that's why i've always wanted to be in seven hurt gabe. Let me start with view. I think that this is supposed to be subversive programming. What did you would you make the well so first of all we should. We should contextualized. The boys is based on a comic series by the writer garth ennis's from northern ireland. <hes> came out about ten or fifteen years ago and that series is part of a kind kind of <hes> history of like satirical superhero material that that starts maybe with watchman or or or peaks with watch men and the the <hes> extending from there especially writers from britain and ireland often wanted to kind of make fun of both american superhero comics and also american culture through the medium of of superheroes and at the time the comic came out. I looked at it and it felt like it was a slightly. <hes> decadent version of this satirical trend that it's feels over the top it feels sometimes when when people from the british isles are making fun of american culture they do it in exaggerated ways that don't actually feel particularly shop and then watching this fairly faithful adaptation in twenty nineteen. I felt a bit like contemporary. American reality has caught what up with this particular dystopia and satire that the the way in which this superheroes are celebrities but also just awful sadists uh of for whom there's a kind of patina of the language of truth justice and the american way that that covers up just really depraved violent sexually sexually perverse awful behavior <hes> it it felt as though like well yeah that is sort of what american life is like now except like now they're superpowers power in this version of it <hes> so i i was surprised at how sharp it felt to me. What did you think well. I have to admit that my i come in to any of these superhero movies with a distinct bias biased which is that i don't like them <hes> and so i knew going into it that i was probably not gonna be completely raptured with the story even if it was supposed to be this like various subversive deconstruction slash <hes> <hes> like certain way to blow up the idea of like our superhero fantasies and apparently even the creator himself garth ennis like hate superheroes which is partly why he made this <hes> to which i say then. Why did you make aac this about superheroes like. Couldn't you do this a different way. <hes> you know each character <hes> in this and also the comic that it's based on has a very in particular analog. There's the superman version. There's the flash <unk> version here. There's a wonder woman version <hes> and i don't know i think i've gotten to the point now. Where like i i will watch these things and unless it's like black panther i don't care because i don't feel like it's doing anything that different like of course we've got. We've gotten to the point now where we're going to imagine what these superheroes superheroes would be like in real life like marvel's already done that itself in terms of like imagining its superheroes as being like actual superheroes that everyone knows and loves is within the context of the world they've created in the cinematic universe so when a character one of the superheroes whose beloved around the world <hes> pulls a louis c._k. And dan drops his pants in front of the new andrzej new joining the team <hes> starlight <hes> unsuspectingly and i it's like oh okay i get. I guess this is what we're doing doing <hes>. I don't know it just feels very on on the news and i know like satire. Is kinda supposed to be like that but there's just so much of it that like i feel i felt felt the superhero fatigue <hes> let's just weighing it down in terms of me thinking that any of it was like actually like useful and productive and creative. No i agree with both have you. I mean i so i i felt that the sort of a distance year in the satire let me try to explain the logic of the show in the universe of the show. The satire is these horrible. Oh people get away with manslaughter because the public is so enchanted by them in our world. The satire cut sort of differently and i think our world is still the unreal one does not always sure but the satire there is how did we all get so sucked into these alternate karuk universes and i was trying to understand what these two satires have to do with one another like what in its totality. Is this show really making fun of especially. If you never really got sucked by you shall like like you like. I never really got sucked into these universes in the first place at all. Why should i detached viewer. Find any traction in what i'm watching and and i guess it's that we're living all living one way or another in an i._p. Kingdom right that the most exploitable resource on earth is no longer oil or gold or something you drag out of the earth but intellectual property and we are in reality lorded over by supermen who are turning out to be nihilists <hes> mm-hmm i guess but i just felt as though finally to me the energy the show can be very clever very funny but it's jaundice is so deep deep and so you know bilious that it seemed to me to be participating in the very thing that it was <hes> satirizing. I mean it certainly y- ah we we talked about the nightingale whether the nightingale was unflinching or not and and the boys does not flinch at least in the first four episodes which is what i saw it it <hes> it also we should say like the the gore and violence in the boys <hes> is although it's a fantasy world and so you have some distance from it the the actual human body things that you see on the screen are really i was quite startled by some of those images to <hes> yeah it's fair. I mean it's very dark doesn't even captured as you said billions and jaundiced. I think he's right. <hes> at the same time <hes> i found round spending some time in in that mode where like we're not gonna pretend that there's <hes> you know that any of this is redeemable. We're not gonna pretend that like there's no no there isn't the the good white guy character in this one and that felt in a way like i don't know about honest but like it. It was a comfortable position position for me to be in for the for the extent of the four hours of this show that i watched. Let's put it that way. It felt as though the america that it was that it was portraying was like what i sometimes in my darker moments think that this america is turning will isn't huey kind of the good white guy character which which i think was partly what made made it difficult for me to get into was like we have two entry points. We have <hes> huey who's <hes>. I don't think it's a spoiler her to say like because it happens in the first like ten minutes that like part of what draws him into realizing that the <unk> terrible is that one of the superhero characters accidentally kills his girlfriend hilarious and disgusted way. We should say yes. Yes yes in a very tarintino. Ask away <hes> and then the other. The entry point is through starlight who is joining the seven like the force. That's it's kind of like the n._b._a. Or whatever election she's joining the the warriors justice got to sleep yeah. Oh sure i know nothing about the justice. League is probably a better analogy than the warriors and so they they're thirty two points of entry you get to sort of different ways because she's entering into the world from the inside and seeing how terrible isn't he's coming from the outside fi. That's an interesting in parallel do but like he's with his character. Just feels kind of like we're going back to you know breaking bad mode where it's like. He starts off really innocent <unk>. I've only seen the first three episodes so i don't know how it finishes but <hes> he starts off innocent he even says at one point he tells one of the characters who's trying to recruit him to to to the sort of anti hero team of <hes> <hes> i. I listened to billy joel like i'm not a fighter. I'm like oh my god really you mentioned it again later <hes> and so that character in this idea that he's gonna sort of like turn slowly and become more vengeful and seek zeke <hes> secret bution to me is just kind of old hat and i'm way more interest is way more interested in the starlight character but even that just felt like doc. We've had i don't want to say that. This topic is not important but we've had so many of these quote unquote metoo like stories and i'm not sure the show is it's like well equipped enough to handle it in a way that feels fresh and or <hes> nuanced isha i think that's right of course you're right about the two points of entry and they're being the show giving you sort of sympathetic character to hook onto in in the middle of what is often a kind of brutal <hes> <hes> and and <hes> completely a neolithic portrayal of things and it may be that you know it. This show plays better for a viewer like me. He who was a comics fan as a kid and for whom there's some sort of vestigial like value in these symbols that the show is like a travesty and tearing down <hes> <hes> if you're in the market i would say for a sharp and and sometimes very funny satire of superheroes in the <hes> <hes> alan moore and garth ennis mode <hes> give the boys a try. I have enjoyed it a lot more than i thought all right well. It's the boys streaming on amazon <hes> check it out having opinion and come and hurled it asked us <hes> super early on on twitter or the the email all right moving on. I'm mallory kasdan and i'm the host of a new podcast called how to raise a parent from slate studios and dairypure. You're how to raise. A parent asks one simple question what appearance learn from their kids. I've been talking with parents and experts about how we can take kids. I view as adults and it's gotten me thinking back to my own childhood so much has changed since then but i remember feeling the same joy in connection to my friends that my daughters zoe has with hers we just facetime for like sixteen hours straight so you see each other and you talk at the same time yeah and it's more fun that way so we when i was your age talking on the phone was really important according to me and my friends too but we didn't have smartphones. We only had landlines. We have these phones. That was it in your house. They had really long cord so you could go through with the house and you had to be creative if you wanted privacy because you didn't have phones in every room in the house so i would be in the closet. Sometimes the cord would be like throughout the whole house. It was super long. Can you imagine like if our family only had one phone in the kitchen and everyone had to share it. You guys you don't want to hear all of my phone conversations. That's how i'm going to say say. I think that's true. I think that's very true so we kind of just like do whatever we feel like and sometimes like i face time with my friends like before like a big day or whatever like i was faced timing with my friend before the grade barbecue because like i want to know what to wear like stuff like that seeing how much fun you have talking and sharing things with your friends inspires me me to stay in better touch with my own friends. We may not spend hours talking on our landlines anymore but text chain can be a lifesaver with a group of old friends. Sharing sharing childhood stories with my kids is one of the ways my family creates special moments of pure joy and connection for more stories like these listening subscribed to how to raise a parent forever you you get your podcasts. Were also sponsored today by anchor. If you're one of those people who has an idea for a show and wants to get started started with your own podcast you might wanna learn more about anchor anchor is a spotify owned company that makes it easy for people to get into podcasting is basically an all in one totally free platform where you you can record a podcast hosted distribute measure your performance analytics and find some show sponsors and it all works from your web browser or through anchors mobile app. You can give ankara. Try try for free at anchor dot f._m. Slash gabfest. That's anchor dot f._m. Slash gabfest all right back to the show. Tony morrison was the author of some of the most acclaimed novels in the american cannon. Now release the global literary canon among them song of solomon soula beloved. She wrote her first book. The bluest i i well an editor at random house and raising two children as a single mother she followed it up with soula and then broke fully through into the literary mainstream with song of solomon over the course career she won every conceivable honor up to and including of course the nobel prize for many years. She was a professor at princeton. She was a monumental public figure. In this country in a way that possibly helps us forget that she was above all just an astonishing writer a great novelist. Sir jackson is professor at the annenberg school at the university of pennsylvania selena and she joins us to talk about tony morrison. Welcome to the podcast for having me. Am i right in thinking that in some ways morrison is like you know dickens pickens or shakespeare even now that we need to return her to a human scale in order to understand the magnitude of her greatness somewhat ironically yeah absolutely <hes> i i know that i had seen something somewhere where someone <unk> early on in her career that she was black william faulkner and of course you know she would very much bristled at that for a a lot of reasons of virtue sort of this bigger than life person because she influenced so many people's careers her writing was so fantastic fantastic <hes> and she worked as an editor and hattie no <hes> the power to make way for a lot of particularly black and african american writers in her career ear <hes> and by all accounts you also was just a lovely person. I mean she was human. She had a story she was a child of the great migration you know grew up in ohio working working class and she told me stories that were actually very ordinary stories about black life in america but in a way that was just so fantastic and so eloquent that she really has become you know this sort of legendary figure and she did she did take the we'll call will william faulkner the white tony morrison for this conversation but she did say he did come i did she took something of the density and lyricism awesome of his very american modernism but then made it completely originally her own talk a little bit about the quality of horizon. Oh oh yeah absolutely i mean i still i think anything's it was absolutely groundbreaking and important about her writing was that she showed that the way that we're in class that black people speak is poetic eh literary and so she didn't try to replicate the grates that had come before her. Although she had read many of those grades she wasn't trying to replicate the pros or the cadence of or the style of those crates. She was really writing in a way that was super authentic to the community she was from into the live. She had experienced people in her lives and two lives that were really rarely acknowledged or celebrated in sort of canon literature but at the same time her unique you know cadence word play pros tone. She had a little bit of magical realism in the way she wrote was just so fantastic and so beautiful beautiful that when you read her writing it's you know i mean there have been. There's been outpouring of of folks responding to her. Passing in so many figures ears have said that they her her writing brings them to tears that they have to stop and go back and reread passages because there's lumps in their throat or because they're so inspiring until he really had this really important unique style that also wasn't replicating sort of what was supposed to be acceptable mainstream mainstream way of writing but was really authentic to an honoring where she came from and the people that she was writing about yeah. I mean one of the things that i a one of the things that was going around online <hes> after her passing that i had forgotten about but was from as don't know when the interview took place but she's is be inter- interviewed by a white journalist and the white journalists asked her. You know it's it's it's strange. I'm paraphrasing but she's like. It's strange right right that you don't. You don't really include that many white people in your stories and what do people think about that antonis. Toni morrison's response was just so so it encompasses. I think everything you're saying. Which is that like. She says i think i don't exactly remember what twenty but she she used the word racist she said like you have to understand how like that kind of thinking how that is like a very like implicitly racist things to say or to think <hes> and the fact that morrison was really writing not to a white audience and to black audiences is i think really early different from a lot of the black authors who came before her <hes> as well. We'll certainly at least those that had been acknowledged. <hes> <hes> you know as part of the canon before her i mean yeah absolutely that was what was so significant about what she was doing. There is a school. I can't remember what i'm talk- it came from hers where she said something. She says something like you know. I stood at the edge and claimed that it was central and i made the mainstream come to me ray and so she was very much committed and it was a part of the inherent politics of the work that she was doing in addition to the fact that she was just this foundationally foundationally amazing inspiring moving writer in her her use of the english language and of pros <hes> but she also just insisted assisted that books didn't have to be written for the white gays. They didn't have to be written for white people. They didn't have to be about white characters and yet that those stories stories could still be all the things that had been historically celebrated as canonical <hes> they could still be coming of age stories stories. They could still be intergenerational family stories they could still be about warren conflict in poverty and wealth and you know all these things that are part of the canon without having to center whiteness and she she you know that that that interview that you're referencing. She's so eloquent. I mean that was one of the things a lot of people have talked about really admiring marring about her. Is that her response to that that interviewer. She's completely calm and together and she says you know so. I can see that you can't understand deeply racist. Your assumption is that that i would need to center white characters. You know the journalists you see. She takes like this gulp. We see that the lump in her throat in them and part of it is because toni morrison's poise <hes> in interviews news in in speaking and you know people who have spent time with our have said she was just so <hes> poised that her pros in real life was similarly clearly. You know just undertaking the way that her pose in her books were in terms of just the statuesque -ness of it. I want to ask et cetera. I think the consensus is and it certainly has been my experience as a reader of her work that beloved her. One of the novel won the pulitzer prize for her. <hes> is really her crowning achievement. <hes> is in in in a career that had many many great novels beloved is the one that sort of stands dance head and shoulders above the rest. I think about ten years ago <hes> the new york times book review did a poll of what has been the greatest novel of the past twenty five years and beloved. I was the one that was chosen by the most writers and critics <hes>. Do you think that's appropriate beloved the the stand out among her work. Oh i would never i i mean you know i think there are so many of her novels. I would say of course beloved is one of the most prized and you know the irony of it <hes> winning <hes> <hes> the president has been named one of the most important if not the most important american novel is that at the time that it was released there was actually i understand a bit of controversy where within the literary community folks didn't you'll like it received the the level of respect that it should have avenue actually took time right <hes> for it to become this canonical texts but i mean she has other texts that are are just incredibly <hes> well beloved as well along with beloved which song of solomon in particular is often <hes> named as as one of her most important tax six on the bluest although it was not <hes> awarded the type of prizes and the type of a literary critic critical literary response that beloved song of solomon was the bluest eye many people name as sort of the most influential of her novels or the one that the most people have read or have personal experiences in reaction to <hes> but all of her books <hes> tar baby <hes> paradise jazz. You know i mean so many of them are unique <hes> but certainly i think that beloved and song of solomon in particular are to do that in literary circles are often held up as sort of the the tony morrison novels to read before we wrap up the segment and obviously there's no way that we could do complete justice morison's legacy in such a short amount of time but <hes> one of the reasons we wanted to have you on to talk about this was because you share this really lovely twitter thread last week right after her passing about your experience <hes> with encountering morrison's work and when another student encountered conjured her work for the first time. Would you mind just sharing that with our listeners. Sure sure yeah and i'll i'll paraphrase a little bit but you know this was a story from for many years ago when i was a student and in a classroom in i had a friend in the classroom who was african american but had been adopted by a white family in in had grown up in a predominantly white really white religious community where there was very little sort of diversity and hadn't really been exposed <hes> too many he <hes> stories about black life or black american experiences and in this particular class <hes> we the first book we read it was a african american literature class in the first book that we read was in fact the bluest eye and there was this experience that you know now i am an educator and i've had many moving in sometime startling sometimes difficult moments in classrooms with students where people react to content all kinds of different ways his but to this day was still one of the most kind of emotional moments that i've experienced in a classroom <hes> where when the professor asks for responses to the bluest eye he he raised his hand and said you know i didn't know that black people could write books and i didn't know that black people could write like this and there was just this silence for in room where he was on the verge of tears on sort of naming this out loud and <hes> you know for certain people you know i mean it was interesting because <hes> on twitter i had people respond. How is that possible you know toni morrison's canonical etc but depending on your age depending on where you went to school in where he grew up it is very very possible you know to get to college and never have have read a black author <hes> and that was his experience and he he told us that he had already read it twice you know in susan assigned reading in class and it was is just such a sort of moving unsettling experienced that he very clearly was seeing something yet and you know kind of reported seeing a lot of his own life and his own experiences in this story <hes> he had never really seen reflected on the page before or been able to name before for <hes> into that speaks to something beyond the fact you know the the professor in our class was actually painted asking us to engage in literary criticism you know talk about the use salaam pros and this and that text but that outside of all that the powerful the powerful in what is powerful backer stories is awaited waited they hold up a mirror to people's lives that often don't or might not see themselves reflected in literature particularly you know at the time that she was writing in writing that was true <hes> until yeah. I mean not something that has always stuck with me now that i'm an educator just the power that <hes> you know having in texts written by black authors can have <hes> in the classroom is something that has always really stuck with me. I think that <hes> there's a lot of not just asked writers who have been influenced by toni morrison but also i think educators who have been influenced by her and sort of the ways in which she insisted on telling certain types stories all right well sir jackson. Thank you so much for joining us on the show to talk about the legacy of tony morrison. Thanks a lot thank you sharon. Thank you so much aright will now is the moment in our podcast <hes> where we endorse scape one one and i start with you sure well so this yes i guess as a follow up to our discussion of tony marson we talked about her novels but <hes> something that we didn't mention was a book of literary criticism that she wrote that's called playing in the dark whiteness and the literary imagination it came out in in nineteen ninety two and it's really just an incredibly powerful book i remember the reading it in college and it blew my mind and i think changed my thinking about american literature and about race in its place in american culture <hes> in a way that i i think persists to this day <hes> it participates in a conversation with literary criticism and literary theory from the nineteen eighty s and nineteen ninety s and and i think people would say about literary theorists is that they weren't good writers and they were hard to read and they were deliberately obscure and that's i think not always always true and some of them were very good writers but none of them was a writer like tony morrison and the fact that tony morrison applied her gift as a writer as a reader and as a thinker about both literature sure in american history <hes> to the project of thinking about rx in american literature and that she wrote three just beautiful crystalline crystalline perfect essays <hes> about that subject <hes>. It's really a gift and i think this book is not read as much as it should be outside of the university <hes> if you haven't read it you should definitely replaying in the dark by tiny marcin. Oh my god. I am so psyched to check that out. <hes> what do you have. I feel like this is such a late endorsement but i finally got into shits creek. Ooh ooh. I i mean i just i know so. Many people in i haven't watched the episode of people in my life have said exactly what i came to it late. I i didn't get it at five. You talk you talk you okay so yes finally started watching it. <hes> with my fiance like maybe two or three months ago. Oh and we've fully caught up. We're almost done with season five which is the the latest season the sixth season finals premiering <hes> in the fall but but specifically want to endorse not just shits creek but more i- roses accent somewhere arose plays the matriarch of the of the family that is at the center of this show <hes> essentially at the beginning of the series. If you have not yet <hes> eugene levy and catherine i know harra play a couple who along with their adult children <hes> suddenly find themselves destitute because of a bad shady deal or something that happened. They were rich now. They're not and they the only possession they have is this <hes> this tiny podunk town called shits creek and so it's all about them like the move there and become such a sweet show as it goes on kind of starts off as sort of <hes> this family could be like a arrested development <hes> <hes> type family as the show goes on they they get very sweet and nice and there's just a lot of great moments in moments that actually have made me tear up <hes> but specifically maura is a character who she was like a for a former soap opera star and <hes> she she has all of these wigs that are dislike hanging in in their hotel room. They still live in a hotel shits creek <hes> and she has this amazing this amazing accent that is like indecipherable. I don't know what it is. It's like i think that kevin o'hara might have just made it up but there's certain words and phrases that she always says the same way and like no one says like bibi like for baby yeah it's just it's so great so shits creek but also more roses accent which is just delightful and amazing and gets <hes> <hes> better as the show goes on arbs like to catch up to your catching up. I i keep appearing this event shits creek the time has come <hes> and then maybe finally we can do it on the show and have have you back to talk about it. <hes> i have endorsed some weird weird unexpected stuff over the course of the your many years of doing this show but i think this one's going to take it even further into outer space but this past weekend. I did something for the very very first time in my life and you will never get. That's what it was. I shaved my lap labrador. You're right. I wouldn't have guessed so this is. This is a double endorsement. Which is our laboratory supposed. <hes> pity shaved. I shaved my labrador a euphemism for something i mean there was a lot of merriment in my house this weekend again with our guests about that gabe and i think for the purposes of keeping the f._c._c. off of the podcast we wanted to like not get into what it might be euphemism for but in this instance is just totally a hundred percent literal no metaphor value here at all. It's my dog. It does get is. He's a black lab producer. He gets extremely long. Shaggy curly hair that over the summer is oppressively hot forum and are we once a year. We got them trimmed in group like pretty far down like dan eight third quarter of an inch <hes> and then over the course of the summer. He gains back his coat by the time october november rolls around his full lengthened. The cycle of life continues year after year. Our groom removed florida. No such option this year the fuzzy butts the local groomer here is called fuzzy but <hes> the one that everyone uses and they've got like like literally a months-long waiting list. It's like trying to go back in the day or something and so i had to finally do it myself and a friend of mine was heading the walmart. I said look pick up whatever it looks like you shave a dog with and she uh-huh so so here's my double tournament the first is it turns out with the right dog and the right owner. It is the most loving painstaking aching therapeutic zen activity. You could possibly do because you know dogs in the summer. My dog goes into ponds and creeks and gets all mucked up and get burs and yes we coma and we keep them then we shampoo him and on and on and on but there's something about like shaving away this excess for that you know that they wanna get rid of and it comes off in these like almost like cotton candy like tufts and you lear leaving behind this sort of the beautiful combed trimmed short coat and <hes> it's almost like the dog is into to not to project too much of the onto onto the doodle and and it just it's like you know it's like the difference between going to the supermarket and buying tomato and like planting the seed and watching you're grown on. I have no idea why you're participating dog grooming. It's just it was really amazing but then here's the the other part of the endorsement even more improbably i'm reading the instructions for this quite heavy industrially beautifully machine device the clipper right the dog grooming clipper and i'm like i look up from like who the fuck wrote these instructions like henry james. They're so they're so beautifully exquisitely crafted sentences describing you prepare the canine. You know where pedestrian do it. How exactly you go about it. I mean it was they were and i was like i looked up and i swear to god this choice that this is a privately held small company and i go to the internet and it turns out wall w. a. h. L. is the inventor of the electric clipper. They're essentially leo wall or jacob. Kuala can't remember in two hundred years ago invented the first electric clipper. It is state a privately held family company in the hundred years since and the product is so beautifully beautifully made. It's the it's like the last thing that you pick up industrially machine thing the u pick up his and his heavier than you expected to be in your hand. You can tell it's going to last fifty years and i have to tell you it's just like the whole experience was about the happiest five or ten years. No respect to my wife and children are they didn't like it's just anyway. I know you're already like dial nine one and have me carted off but this is like i'm just telling you you if and they have a up shading out the rigs for for men for women for humans for horses. God knows probably for pigs do but dogs as well but shave your own dog. That's my dormant and i'm sticking by hi it. My dog hates to be shaved. Yes she's gorgeous everywhere. It's but had he have you d._i._y. Though yeah yeah who your own labrador yes there's she's got a labrador tow but her hair goes every which way because he's a mutt <hes> in the type two type of mud that we don't know what she is but <hes> yes. She does not like it. She's very uncomfortable but she also doesn't like a lot of things like our electric vacuum cleaner cleaner did you use. Did you use a wall ketan rooming hand-held clipper device. I don't think it is a wall <hes>. It's very very fancy comes in a case and everything and there's little scissors and comb but maybe we gotta get a wall the wall. I'm looking at their beard-trimmers your tremors on the internet right now. I'm thinking i'm going to pick up one of these and read the instructions very carefully and see if we can identify like a sing if there's a single single authority voice among the dog instructions in the bearn instructions or if it's a kind of corporate process that produces these things no corporate prizes houses produced those those densely lyrical tony morrison ask sentences fleet all right well. We've taken this so far over the top. There may be no landing adding this ship but i should thank you so much for coming on the show is just as always a total pleasure gabe love. Having the boss man's <hes> foot on my forehead minds me of all times always happy to stop steve all right. You'll find links to some of the things we talked about today. At our show page that sleep dot com slash culture fest you can email us culture festival slate dot com <hes>. We'd love interacting with you on twitter. We have a twitter feed is at slate cult fest. We do really getting emails but we don't have a production assistant this week. <hes> <hes> <hes> <hes> shout outs barish effectively was this week's production assistant. We're looking for a new one or producers benjamin frisch <hes> for asia harrison and <hes> gabriel roth stephen. Thank you so much for joining us. We will <hes> <music> <music> from sleet. I'm seth stevenson. I'm from the economist. I'm tom stand age and we're back with a second season of our podcast that looks to the past for lessons about what's coming next. It's called the secret history of the future in season two were digging even deeper to find eliminating stories of bygone technologies more curious tales from history more amazing discoveries from the present day and more predictions about the future of technology the secret history of the future season two on apple podcasts or wherever you listen.