20 Episode results for "smartwater"

Youve Got Microplastics

Gadget Lab Podcast

43:44 min | 1 year ago

Youve Got Microplastics

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus p. h. To the wired world. It's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water water. That's pretty smart. Hi everyone. I'm michael calorie. I'm an editor here wired and you are listening to the gadget lab the podcast or we talk about the latest gadgets apps and services that you need to know about and how they impact our lives. I'm joined as is always by my co host wired senior associate editor arielle parties. Hello and senior writer lauren good hello today. We'll be joined by another wired writer on the show. Show matt simon from our scientists is going to be telling us about the latest report from the world health organization on micro-plastics. Basically there are small particles of plastic in the air in the water and we are all consuming it matt a resident doomsayer will tell us how worried we should be d- lewis things are going to get a little bit dark however it's definitely news you can use but first. Let's get to the news. Would you like to go. I i would love to have you guys been on readily. Yes thanks to you well. If you haven't then you may not be aware that read it which is famous for its news aggregation and discussion boards has has launched live streaming so if you opened the mobile app you'll see that at the very top of the front page there's now a live video under the banner that says our pan the red at public access access network. Now this is temporary. Our pan is a surprise week long experiment which is being entirely moderated by red. It's fulltime staff on friday will disappear but read it is planning to add live streaming as a more permanent feature later on so this is sort of like a sandbox to see how people use live video on a platform that has always it's been about text. I'm just gonna open it right now until you. What's what's going on so if you visit read it on the mobile app you can see like right now. There's a guy who appears to be <hes> playing keyboard dancing without a shirt on. There's another guy who's reading aloud from a book reading the hobbit. That's nice <hes> <hes>. There's a kid who peers to be about fifteen years old playing the drums earlier. I was on here. There are a lot of dogs so cute. <hes> it's pretty wild though for platform that's had some problems with moderation in the past and has has certainly been no stranger to toxic content. It's it's a big leap of faith it is and when i was reading this story i i you know i was like each paragraph. As it was going. I was like okay. So when are they going to talk about the fact that it's really hard thing to do have on moderated video on the internet because all kinds of bad things happen and then they do actually they. We are being very conscious of that right. They have a right now moderators in place and if something terrible happens like somebody livestream shooting which has happened before for our somebody livestream any sort of her if event <hes> they'll have somebody watching it who'll be able to take it down <hes>. I'm really curious to see how they handle that problem at scale. Oh yeah i am as well because right now. Our pan is moderate by red. It's full time paid staff in the future. If they launched permanently it'll be moderated by read credits network of volunteer moderators and that that will be tricky but at least for this week. It seems like it's been really wholesome and nice. Which is which is nice to see. You know it's a relief when the internet delivers read it for a long time has been associated with some of the worst parts of on the internet and some of the best parts of the internet so a things is just gonna be reflection on that all right moving on earlier this month samsung announced announced two new galaxy note ten phones now if you're familiar with samsung's mobile product line you know that the note devices are the largest phones. The company makes comically large in fact the bigger of the two models. The ten plus has a six point eight inch screen which is huge. You may also be aware that the galaxy note is extremely popular. People love huge huge phones. People love samsung phones when you put the two together. You've got a top tier device that cost over a thousand dollars that big phone lovers go bonkers for well. The reviewers are going bonkers for it. As well this week hardware critics from around all of the big media outlets started publishing their own reviews of the samsung galaxy note ten plus us and the praise was nearly universal. Sam rutherford at gizmodo called it damn near perfect gordon kelly over at forbes called it. The smartphone two by jessica dole cord it at c._n._n. Is doing a 'continuing of the phone over many weeks but says that so far it is quote shaping up to be beautiful debone at the verge says there are some good things as bad <hes> things but overall. It's pretty good lauren. You reviewed the galaxy note ten plus for wired and gave it an eight out of ten calling it excellent overall. Tell us about it. How much time do do we have okay so it's important to put this in a little bit of context i which is that the smartphone market is slowing down. We've reached a point where where so many people have smartphones that there's less room for growth you know the total addressable market is sort of shrinking and people are starting to hold on for phones a little bit longer. I think that's both anecdotal and some studies have shown that so phone makers are in a position right now where they can't just guarantee that people are going to buy the newest and latest and greatest just thing they have to come up with very creative ways to make their phones standout into try to differentiate them and for samsung. That's happening within their own phone line because if you think about it samsung has two who flagship phone launches every year they have one in february which is the s line. The shirt was the ten and then they have the note launch which they've had since two thousand eleven every august into september timber and that kind of timeframe so now with the note. It's not just one giant phone. They have the note ten plus which is what we were able to review this week and then they have the the no ten which happens to be sort of the same size of the ten that came out in february so there are just these various differentiations between all the different phones the note ten plus. This is the biggest and in my opinion. It's the most beautiful it's got like kennedy's angular edges that are maybe a little bit different from the s. Ten mature more rounded. It's more rounded but <hes> this has basically an edge to edge display. It's as you mentioned a six point eight inch display. It's got this really cool. Iridescent finish called aura glow which is very reflective <hes>. It's got dislike beautiful screen even open display is not that much different from the display on the ten in february. It's got of course the s._p._n. I spend the little stylus little match stylus which is what sets this apart spend. I call it the spend look this quad <hes> lens camera but then when and you look at the guts of it that's another thing that sets it apart because it starts ships with like twelve gigabytes of ram like this is crazy. This is like a crazy amount of power for a phone and it's running on sat the qualcomm snapdragon fifty five processor. Which is the latest processor. It's got like it's just got all the bells and whistles so this is the kind of phone where if you're willing to spend eleven hundred dollars in a phone you're obsessed with samsung phones in your particularly obsessed with the note. This is like this is just a phone you get for the average person. That was probably a little too much phone. That's my take okay yeah. It's also very very very expensive eleven dollars you can get. I think you can get the s. ten now. The one that wants just just a mere six months ago for something like eight hundred fifty dollars which is also still very expensive but you're not getting that much less phone right and dan. We're going to have more reviews. <hes> let's see next week. I guess sometime soon we're going to be reviewing the regular sized note ken so stay tuned not attend nothing no templates rights and that phone is running on google's android nine pie which is a great segue to the next news item of the of the day the google android the operating system has long been known for its desert themed names but now it's going on a diet. It's newest mobile operating system android q. was this was made available elbows beta software back in march going to officially launch sometime in the next few weeks but unlike jelly bean lollipop nougat my favorite oreo pie etc etc this one this operating systems just gonna be called guys ready for this. Are you ready. Android ten okay our own boon ashworth who by the way also records and edits this podcast so thank you boone. He's sitting here in the room with us today. <hes> writes on wired dot com that google made the decision partly because it wanted to be more inclusive in partly because it wanted to make an android more accessible a spokesperson from google told boone that the company had heard feedback over the years that quote unquote the names weren't always intuitively understandable by everybody in a global community so like some people are interpreting pied differently in some in some savory sweet. I don't you know also the green robot logo is going to stick around but the word android will change range from green to black because it's a higher contrast and it will make it more visual and easier on the eyes for people with visual impairments so in some ways is very small tweaks but in other ways. It's the end of google deserts. Yeah i mean that was the thing it doesn't really make much difference. If you are just an android phone user because it is you you see the name of the operating system when you look at it as a number in addition to the name of the desert. The desserts were very cute. It gave googly really good marketing opportunity but there was a problem. I think that seems like a pretty big problem. Which is that entered his on two point five billion devices around the world and it is probably the most distributed <hes> piece of software in the world and not everybody's alphabet goes a._b._c. right right. Some people are missing the letters that we know some people don't even use that alphabet so they have a hard time knowing like if marshmallow comes before kit kat or after kit kat you know so they're not just by calling it in a name instead of a number. It's not clear that what you you have is something that is current or two steps ago or you know you don't know where you fall in the in the progression so i think that's like a good reason to get rid of it and also i don't know i think people who don't like android one of the things that they don't like about it is just that it's so cute and getting rid of the cute name makes it a little bit less cute cute so maybe it makes it more appealing to more people as just a guess. I don't really know about that. Maybe i'm reading into this too much but you see little things like this as this this. I don't know we're entering. A new phase of smartphones smartphones have been around now in a major way for about a decade right and and we are reaching ms point this tipping point where more people than not have smartphones and i don't know companies are trying different things and have to innovate in order to sell them. I mean to me it just feels like android dropping desserts. After several years of desert just feels like another small moment in that shift yeah. I mean you said it. They're constantly evolving right phones constantly evolving. I think we've reached a point where the hardware is not evolving as quickly as the software's evolving and we've been there for a while and we're going to keep seeing phones with four cameras and five cameras and eight cameras marina c- phones with more and more ram and everything but then of course the software has to have much more capability beyond what it has in order to keep that so i really know the dropping the name is a signal of that but it's definitely something that they're thinking about and they're probably just it's gonna start doing like ten point one point five ten point seven ten point eight as they add those little capabilities that expose new things in the hardware <hes> so oh it'll probably make it easier for them to incrementally update in a more consumer facing way. <hes> seems pretty convenient. They stopped doing this at q. You a letter that does not have an obvious desert right. What would our have been rebecca rula. Yeah see they're getting to the part of alphabet where the desserts are not so obvious well <hes>. Let's take a quick break and then return with matt simon to tell us about micro-plastics and how we're all going going to die. Support for this podcast comes from smartwater smartwater is for the curious fresh thinkers the ones who ask questions and are never satisfied with the norm the ones who believe in doing things the smart way even if it's as simple as drinking water. That's why smart water is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline antioxidant designed to enhance the every day new smart water alkaline has nine plus ph hydration after working up a sweat and new smart water antioxidant has added selenium both with the smart water taste you know and love hydration with your body and mind signed in mind smart water. That's pretty smart. Matt simon is a staff science writer wired who is one of the few people on earth to have witnessed the fabled committing ritual of the exile salamander no really he is. He's also the author of two books. The wasp that brainwash the caterpillar and the plate of the living dead his latest story in wired is about micro-plastics how were drinking them without even realizing it and what it means for our health matt. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me under these dire circumstances dancing yeah so before we get to dire. Let's just set the stage what are micro-plastics margaret. Politics are defined as bits the plastic smaller than five millimeters <hes> some very tiny but there's a pretty big range. They can be somewhat visible down to completely invisible invisible. <hes> the problem with plastic of course is that <hes> it is built to last <hes> so when these things float out into the ocean <hes> they'll break down over over time but very little will break off into these micro-plastics grows brittle under u._v. light <hes> the ocean of course that's heat out there so it breaks smaller smaller smaller pieces in these smaller smaller pieces get into smaller and smaller places so we're finding that our seafood embedded in tissues and things like that we have found a good could amount of it <hes> some studies looked at a leader of of drinking water never thousands of of micro plastic particles in there so we are consuming them. Were also inhaling them. They are blowing in the wind. <hes> they're coming from all kinds of sources like yoga pants of all things have these synthetic fibres you wash them. That water goes out <hes> <hes> we then treat that water again to drink in that comes back into our bodies <hes> so it is incredibly pervasive and completely impossible the problem to fix because there is no such thing as a magnet. You can just drag over the earth to pick up. All these micro-plastics hate to start off in a really dire way but that's unfortunately just the the nature of things you brought up a point which is that it's not just <hes> you know the remnants of plastic water bottles and things that come to mind but other fabrics works <hes> textiles yoga pants where else are micro-plastics coming from that people might not be thinking of a realizing. There's a good steady. A couple of weeks ago looked at concentrations of these micro-plastics blowing into pristine habitats like in the arctic so these ice floes which are essentially just chunks of floating ice in these very remote areas the wind is blowing micro-plastics and it's settling on these these little ice flows and they're able to quantify just how much up there it's it's again thousands of particle sometimes per <hes> per leader <hes> one of the interesting things about that study was they're finding a lot of it was from varnish so varnished has has polymers and it seems to be happening is <hes> oil rigs offshore stuff <hes> has this paint this barnish that then comes off <hes> blows in the wind <hes> they've also done some sampling along roads in <hes> in germany and the sampling that the snow there and found that was just incredible concentrations of micro-plastics coming from things like tires and shoes so all these things that we wear and use virtually i mean just think about how omnipresent simplistic is in our lives all of it is shedding little tiny bits that are invisible to the human eye and are ending up not only are potties but throughout virtually really the entire environment and how were he'd. Should we be about that that brings us to the w._h._o. Which put out a report yesterday a saying well at the moment don't worry <hes> the problem is that they're saying that because it just is virtually no research into what what this does to humans so they do research in the lab where they will present organisms with very high concentrations of plastic so so leaching the plastics and water in many times the amount that you'd actually find out in nature so they are able to shove that for instance the bacteria that are flooding on the oceans that produce the oxygen we breathe <hes> their growth is stunted by these dates are called from micro-plastics again. That's an a very high dose that you wouldn't find out in nature <hes> they have to do that to to get these reactions from these organisms so it's not clear yet first of all howard's awards affecting organisms in the ocean and we know that it's embedding in their tissues. It's coming up in shellfish and regular fish swimming around out there but we just don't have a good idea yeah about the effects on the human body we we know that we are ingestion them and to a large degree passing them through our stool so the thinking is is that these bigger pieces of micro plastic just kind of go through us. The more important question i think is very very tiny bits of micro politics which might be able to bed in our gut ah tissue and then leach out those chemicals that they have been toying with in the lab with these other organisms the promise it's just it's a huge unknown unknown. It's a very new field of science and all the testing methods are very new so you have different groups of researchers trying different things building off each other's work <hes> <hes> you know using different fineness of mesh to say to to filter out the backup buses which gives you different sizes micro-plastics so it's it's a it's a kind of wild west in the field but there's an extreme urgency to because we need to find out very soon what's happening to the body for inhaling isn't isn't getting it in our lungs or for eating drinking it. We just have no idea the w._h._o.'s yesterday said <hes> well at the moment we just we don't know we can't demon a public health health risk <hes> but we do need a tremendous amount of research into this <hes>. Everybody understands that. It's a problem and <hes> like most of the problems uh-huh with pollution in this world. It seems to be disproportionately affecting people in the developing world more so than it is folks in the developed world that we live then <hes> <hes>. What can you tell us about that. This is an interesting bit that can have been the whol report yesterday in saying listen. This isn't a problem yet <unk> <hes> they made a very fine point to say we know that two billion people on this planet are drinking water. This fecally contaminated. We know very very clearly that that is bad and that leads to about a million deaths per year so what the w._h._o. Is saying is focused on that. That is unknown. We need to fix that problem urgently now. We need to start thinking about what about micro-plastics. How do we handle that going forward. If we do find that there is some <unk> adverse effects in the human body but you know it's about first of all getting wastewater treatment into the developed dub developing world more <hes> to to get that water clean but then start thinking about maybe down the road how we can clean that water further of micro-plastics. The extra bit of irony is that the the equipment itself might be made of plastic and contribute to the macro plastic problem so yes in the developing world as in a lot of cases with climate change and things it's like that is disproportionately affected by this and it's yeah it's again. It's just such a pervasive problem. The stuff is absolutely everywhere. Were and there's just no way to pull it out of the ecosystem or out of organisms. How does this compared to previous generations of human beings who were also interacting with plastics. I wonder about maybe people are parents age. You know where people like ingesting this much plastic beforehand and we're just finding out about it now or has our as our general consumption or consumer habits change to the point where we're really dealing with this in a new way. That was another interesting bit of the w._h._o. Report that made the point that we've had these plastics for decades. Presumably we've been having these micro-plastics coming off of these larger bits of plastics for decades. We haven't seen an impact on human health when you think about kids in particular who have have for decades been playing with plastic toys. Kids put these things in their mouths and inevitably. That's gonna put micro-plastics in their bodies so the point of the report made was was. We have been doing this for quite some time. <hes> the difference now is that we are producing something along the lines of four hundred million tons of the stuff a year <hes> that is going to things that is that surround us right now <hes> not important things like single use bags but plastic is an extremely important material society. You can't have single use syringes without plastic. It is vital for human health but unfortunately we're now at the point where harry it might it'd be adverse for human health and a lot of ways but they're you know two point. There's there's it's been around for quite some time. It's around much more. These days is just so pervasive in our lives and just really in the past year or so scientists have been studying this in finding these micro-plastics everywhere and they're just they're they're frantically typically searching for ways to find this is adversely affecting human health because for decades we have been you know our kids have been playing this stuff in their mouths and we have been eating off plastic plates and plastic spoons drinking out of plastic cups and get into macrobiotics that way so yes. There's a supreme emergency here. We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back with more bad news. Let's talk about her. New sponsor gabby gabby we started when its founder hano was trying to find the best rate on car insurance. He just moved to the u._s. 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It's two minutes what you have to lose go to gabby. Dot com slash wired now. That's g. a. b. I. dot com slash wired so matt. You've given us a lot to think about here. In terms of how micro-plastics could be potentially benchley affecting our health and how micro-plastics are almost certainly destroying the planet. Do you have any good news for us. Like is there any sense that there is something we can be doing as consumers or something we can be doing at a societal level that begins to dig us out of this whole there has been some movement there when when it comes to <hes> consumers kind of rising up and saying we don't need this single use plastic like things in grocery stores might produce wrapped in plastic. That's completely unnecessary that you can push for change there. The problem is that as with climate change. It's the corporations that are responsible for this is not the people so we are bearing the devastating effects of climate change because you know one hundred corporations in on this planet make up seventy percent of emissions as same with plastics producers that are <hes> using these plastics as much as it's become cheap. It's just a cheap way of packaging things but there are more reasonable ways to go about this so i think there can be some movement from the consumer side of things but the the base of the problem album is that just plastics are so useful <hes> sometimes unnecessarily so single use plastic bags but also with medical devices and things like that it is absolutely vital and a lot of ways to modern human health so what about different kinds of plastics like bioplastics have gotten a lot of attention recently these plastics that are made out of materials that are not naught derived from petroleum things like <hes> algae or corn <hes> gino anything about the research being done there. That's another place who just need in a lot. More research is because it's a bioplastic clinical doesn't mean that it's not potentially harmful for organisms <hes> returning to this idea of these leach eighths. It's you can have a plastic. That bound degrades perhaps but i might be throwing off some strange chemicals that might affect one organism may be out in the the ocean but if you are affecting something at the very base of the food chain <hes> that can have ripple effects up to us so yeah the promise that we just don't have enough research on the impacts of this stuff <hes> on on isn't out in the wild much less on human health <hes> <hes> ideally we do get to the point where we have plastics that biodegrade without breaking a tiny tiny pieces and then getting into organisms that way. It's just we need so much more research. Not the who report really says very urgently <hes> because we just have no idea where's the funding for this research coming from the who that is <hes>. I believe provided by sweden for right of the funding for this particular research <hes> but it's yeah they'll be funding coming from from every i mean this is. This is a very urgent problem for researchers. It is also probably a little bit easier to get funding for this. Just because of the publicity involved <hes> which is good. I mean it's a good way to drive this research but you do also have a lot of pushback from the plastic industry. Believe it or not these these powerful awful lobbying groups that are like overreacting hair. Plastics is just so they they say the plastics is useful line which is true but the way we have deployed plastics six has been wildly irresponsible and the planet is now suffering for it. Won't somebody think of the leachate s- want somebody think of lead says that are now everywhere. This has been really insightful and your story is unaware dot com this week. Everybody should go check it out and would you like to stick around for recommendations. Sure all all right. Let's do it. Passwords are the worst. 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Dash line has an exclusive offer for our listeners. A free thirty day trial dash lean premium just go to dash lane dot com slash gadget so if you have more than one password and you should dash lane is a no-brainer brainer go to dash lane dot com and start your free thirty day trial right now fix your password problem once and for all and support this podcast by going to dash lane dot com slash gadget all right now. It's time for recommendations. We play baseball rules here at the end of the show so matt you are visitor. You get to go first. Tell us what would you like to recommend to our audience. I'm going to continue the dire tone of this conversation and talk about a series of books that i've been reading being bhai stephen pine p why he's a fire historian down an arizona who has written a really interesting series of books about the nature surefire afire behaves cultural history of fire <hes> how we're all going to be consumed by fire near future but there's there's singles plastics fire climate change. It's all horrible but i've been thinking a lot about <hes> these weird feedback loops of fire being more powerful and devastating in these times of climate change and that in turn produce more missions which feeds back in a climate change. I'm going to stop it because yes. I feel like we should move on to something more lighthearted so you're recommending the earth in the whole series. It's great ones not depressing announced. Keep going the student like all in one weekend and then <hes> booze it up at night and mixed filibuster. How many butts are there. Oh there's i believe there's seven or eight okay okay. That's a good one arielle. Do you have something perhaps mildly uplifting yes she. I recommend booze. I'm going to cosign on matt's argumentation. They're definitely always chase your your doom news with alcohol unhealthy at all. No my recommendation is a podcast. It is called carrier and it's unlike anything i've ever heard before. It's not quite a podcast and not quite radio jio play but it is an audio fiction experience with the most interesting sound design. I've truly ever heard you'll ever driven or reefer refrigerated trailer. Do you know how to handle one. Oh yeah yes of course quicken you get on the road. It's basically about a woman in who is a long haul truck driver and <hes> it has actually some undertones of climate change and sort of like evil monsanto style companies doing mysterious devastating research that harms humans. I'm trying not to give too much away. <hes> <hes> but it's one of the it's one of those things that i look forward to listening to every new episode and when you listen to an episode you feel totally transformed from where you are to what's happening in the show so <hes> anyway. It's really cool <hes> if you if you do listen to it semi tweet. Let me know what you think. I'm dying to discuss it with people. It's a little hard to talk about without giving away too much so i'm trying to be a little cryptic but definitely check it out. It's called carrier and you can find it wherever you find your podcasts. How long has each episode. It's a great podcast. I listened to it recently on bart which is be bay area's metro system which is notoriously screechy and loud and uncomfortable comfortable and unpleasant and i completely forgot on bart and in fact some of the sound design was so cool and had these cool trucking noises says that that overlaid with the screeching sound of the bart was like amazingly cool experience. I highly recommend it. I really you have a solution for barak. Forget like fixing infrastructure hiring more civilized years or just fixing bay area rapid transit. Just listen to podcasts that make you forget it's bart. You heard it here first mike. What's your recommendation condition <hes> so my recommendation is a book and it's kind of an old book <hes> but i don't care because i just read. It and i think it's great and i'm telling other people about it. So i want wanna tell everybody about it. <hes> it is a book by michael pollen <hes> the famous food and science writer and it is called how to change your mind what the new science of psychedelics teaches us about consciousness dying addiction and depression <hes> that absurdly long subtitle is is there most probably to let you know that this is not just a book about trips and like people taking trips on on classic psychedelics <hes> it is about the science of studying these things how they affect brain chemistry how the sort of the the intersection of the the mystical mystical experience and the scientific experience <hes> is a very complicated one here <hes> because there's no science to account for like talking to god awed which is what people often experience and they take alex so michael palin goes all the way back to <hes> the middle beginning middle of the twentieth century the and talks about <hes> the history of particularly l._s._d. And silas ibn <hes> being used in trials <hes> by psychologists to treat things like p._t._s._d. And the c._i._a. Experimented on people to see if he could be used as a psychological weapon <hes> there are a lot of <hes> studies done in hospitals institutions institutions about it and then the sixties happened and all of a sudden l._s._d. Got a bad rap because it was changing society and the government <hes> made it illegal and people started losing their children to the counterculture and it just became like all the the cultural baggage got associated with it so then there was sort of nothing done for about twenty thirty years and now ever since the mid nineties. There have been a lot more research. There's been a lot more research and study done on it and <hes> we're at a place now where we're sort you've seen this second or third renaissance of <hes> psychedelics being used as a way to treat common things like anxiety and depression and addiction action and also a way to sort of ease people's anxiety around their impending death so there's one study where they give psychedelics to people who have very recently ben given a terminal cancer diagnosis in order to help them process that news and it's just a really fascinating book and of course being a good journalist what's that he is he also ingests these molecules himself and goes on these wild mind journeys and tells you all about them <hes> which is a small part of the book but it's also very rich tasty part of the book <hes> just totally fascinating <hes> when you get to the end of the book you have a completely different no matter no matter what you bring going to the book when you get to the end of it you have very different view of what psychedelics are four and who should take them so that's why i'm recommending thing it mostly because the book is called to change your mind and by reading it most likely it will change your mind about these things that you know. Many people were brought up to think we're evil so desma reclamation. It's now out in paperback. <hes> as of this summer came out last year and now you can get an on paperback of course you can also get it on like the kindle or audio book <hes> also if you read it and you're interested in the process and like what he went through <hes> you should definitely definitely listen to his appearance on the long form podcast <hes> from maybe like a month or six weeks ago <hes> reitox. It's talks a lot about like sort of the process of reporting in writing the book and how weird it was for him so <hes> it's very good his mind what made him go from writing about food to this topic <hes> he actually talks about this on the on the blackthorn podcast so he you know he did like three books about food four books about food <hes> omnivores dilemma botany of desire <hes> he had the netflix series cooked worked and when he started there nobody like him and i think eric schlosser writing about food and by the time he got to his fourth or fifth book about food this he was like this big rich crowded world <hes> and at that point he was like well. I'm kind of interested in other topics so i should find something that nobody else is writing about and this was that topic very cool yup recommend reading the book while on psychedelics <hes> yes maybe microdosing mike rowe does when you read it you can optimize the <hes> the absorption of information into your into your brain perfect yes. If you read this book matt. I have those that was good. I i had the pleasure of interviewing him onstage for an event and we had a great conversation about partly why he waited until older age to do that. I that was interesting. <hes> i think i would feel the same i i wouldn't want to do in my twenties. My brain was equipped for it so i think i'll probably wait until sixty around his is age finally be mature enough to do the journey lauren. What is your recommendation. Myra nation is listening to the bill simmons podcast uncast <hes> but one interview in particular on august fourth he published an interview with cara swisher who's the tech editor and journalist extraordinaire in air <hes> within our group of peers although to call cara appear is crediting ourselves quite a bit and i found it to be a really interesting conversation precision. I thought i knew everything there was no about care swisher and <hes> at i just think they have really dynamic and <hes> bill simmons has a really great interview style and <hes> you know he really kind of brought it down to like a non techie level and a good in a good way asking her what her thoughts were on the future of media streaming services and silicon valley culture facebook live right people be able to have live video and then it's a great the idea let's start working on it and they put the best engineers possible and they're trapped in the moment of the checkpoints of creating this idea never kind of looking at each other and going. Hey what happens if some crazy crazy person just are shoe bomber. It's that's their mentality. I think i have this line. I use a lot which i say to to crowds of. Technology was like imagine in your product is a black mirror episode then don't make it yeah. It's just really great podcast by gusta interview so i recommend it. It's long. It's like an hour and forty minutes and it's just called the bill simmons pago. It's called the bill simmons podcast. It's <hes> it's part of <hes> his media brand which is the ringer but that is that is the title of his podcast and <hes> and yeah carrot carrozza character carry. It doesn't surprise me to hear you say that. It's like an hour and forty minutes long because those two can talk. Oh oh yeah oh they can definitely talk and <hes> yeah and the thing is he's one of those people who can get away with an hour and forty minute podcast. I mean obviously obviously there's a trend of very very long big interview style podcasts and most of the time those podcast titled like white man's name podcast <hes> and so you know this is like like falls into that category but that said i really do appreciate his interview style and a lot of ways and <hes> i worked <hes> four keira in with keira from two thousand eleven eleven to two thousand eighteen so i do know her quite well and have some great care swisher stories which i will hold overhead as blackmail for as long as i live. I'm just kidding. They're all great stories. She's really like warmhearted and generous person beneath her <hes> her demeanor of being silicon valley's most fearsome journalist but <hes> but i don't know i just yeah i just really enjoyed the conversation decision between the two of them. They talked a lot about responsibility among tech ceos and how things have changed. I mean he has to questions like who who stood out to you. As people who who like before we all were sort of down tackling who were actually really really smart entrepreneurs and she has some great stories about meeting with people like larry patients turkey brandon mark zuckerberg in the very early early days when we were all just sort of wide about these technology platforms and services and how like this is all evolved into the place. We are today and it was. It's just really enjoyable conversation a peek behind the shades. Yes that's right. She was wearing shades during the podcast and bill simmons commented on this. Just take the darn sunglasses off tara. Nope not gonna happen well. This is not an hour and forty minute long. We have to end it there. <hes> matt simon. Thank you so much for coming onto to the show. Thanks for having me of course it's always a pleasure and everybody should read your story about micro-plastics right now on wired dot com in the science channel <hes> <hes> and if you have enjoyed this episode or even if you maybe didn't enjoy you can give us some feedback you can leave review wherever you downloaded this from mm <hes> either on on apples podcast by former google's podcast by farm or you can also give us feedback directly by tweeting at us on the twitter account at gadget gadget lab <hes> matt. How can people find you on twitter. You can find me <hes>. I don't really use it which is irresponsible me as a person who works at wired tired. I can't stand that place but i'm there you can find. Mr matt simon like m._r. Matt's idea okay mar. That's innovative. Isn't it lauren. How can people find find you on twitter. I am at loring good with an e end. I'm at parnasse. Oh tarik and i am at snack fight and you can join join us next week when we'll be back with other show. Thank you <music> <music> <music> <music> <music>.

Mr matt simon samsung writer google gabby gabby lauren good editor bill simmons germany cara swisher michael palin facebook twitter Smartwater lewis qualcomm smartwater smartwater
Deep Listening

Gadget Lab Podcast

32:40 min | 1 year ago

Deep Listening

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus p. h. wired and you're listening to the gadget lab i'm here with my co hosts wired senior odds yay air pods on monday apple announced the new air pods pro there should be a hit because regardless of how you personally might feel about air pods the pods i managed to get a loaner pair of air pods yesterday as part of our i to answer them right now i will say that these are what the first airports should have been what your buds should be an how others have approached ear buds with soft clunky and feel like they have an awkwardly long stick relative to these the things so that it can lock you into its ecosystem so now when you go to the control center on your iphone connected air pods right from there and if you long press on that volume bar it you can't over bluetooth but then you're not using the super special custom chip called the h. one better with your apple stuff interesting oreo what are your thoughts on these new air pods pro oh dear listeners i will do my best to describe to you what these look like so it was killed on audio yeah time little silicone tips because comfy not so comfy to have hard plastic very comfy and then there's a little vent which is supposed to equalize the pressure sure but they do look different and they've also been packed despite being a little bit smaller there's a new chip inside they still like apple products like it's about four and a half hours so it's four and a half hours if you are planning on using the noise cancelling you're so if you don't use that you can expect to get about five hours per on this and said like you can find something totally wire free earbud right now that's gets you you are apple devotees they want the thing that looks like apple they want the thing that works with their apple devices how do they stack up compared to other other options on the market well oh are just a little bit beyond competitive with the other wire free headphones that are out there because these have as learn mentioned active noise annoys canceling to do its job and you mentioned lowering that you were pretty stick of the pod on the stem so what they're doing is they're blocking then that means that the noise cancelling adjusts incense more anti-noise interior yes i thought we'd pretty well so that's a mechanism it's usually called hybrid and see career noise cancelling headphones like bows or master and dynamic or something like that which will probably now that everybody loves is the sony w. f. hyphen one thousand x those are two hundred and thirty dollars the sony's that everybody loves those are twenty dollars cheaper than the apple airports so the air pods per we're kind of in the middle there bos has some new ones coming out then there's the big one though is the amazon echo buds noise cancelling on them those are one hundred thirty dollars okay but are they any good like when i the amazon did partner with bows these though yeah they said that it partnering with bose but in like the most hands off way possible rashly licensing they've been getting pretty good reviews are audio revere parker hall is going to be testing for a little bit extra on top of what you already get from the isolation of having things plugged machines the amazon echo buds alexa machines one thing that you do perhaps a little less harsh jarring than it has in the past which is kind eating but i don't think because i mean alexis not working over your cellular well i have a question for the room our air pods still the worst you know it's not the worst thing ever lots of people like them i think they're sort of a symbol of someone wearing air pods and wearing all birds and like maybe having a beanie and like a author great people love them do you agree lauren no i think you're totally right and that it is i mean it's a it's a very real aesthetic that is exists in the world that we cover presumably his mom driving the car and just was heads down in his phone with air pods car and then i realized i did the same thing when i was a teenager as like staying the car with representative of something greater but at the end of the day they're they're headphones headphones yeah wealth necessarily more so than just a smartphone any pair of wireless headphones signals wealth so what happens if you lose one oh you have to make a missed connection on wayne to start looking more at repairability in how they construct these air pods going daybreak or your battery dies as it will eventually because it's a lithium ion battery that runs charges dude you just can't get it fixed so that's bothersome when you consider well yeah well on that note let's take a quick break and when we come back we'll be talking support for this podcast comes from smartwater smart water is proud to share stories and plus ph from when you work up a sweat doing what you love and smart water antioxidant reducing a totally awesome podcast about personal technology your to do list is never software and handles your work for you so you can focus on the things that actually matter no more wasting your time your day to day and let zap your take it from there zap lets you instantly engage with leads send them so the possibilities are virtually endless best of all it's easy to build the exact solution you need in so you're free by going to our special link zappia dot com slash gadget that's z. a. the makers of all these major smart assistance have come under fire recently for violating their users into what it really means to have a smart speaker in your home and how to control your privacy and trigger warning so putting your airports pro for the rest of the show lauren all the amount of data that is being shared with these big tech companies if you have have of doing this but i think one of the problems with these the dashboards that using it and they're off to the races and lo and behold it turns out the behind the scenes there are very real human had the opportunity to throughout some of our other reporting to ask companies like microsoft and google and what we've heard so far is that most technologists say that it's going to comes to language language is a very complicated thing as these companies expand offering services engine speech recognition very complicated and so there isn't a robot out there yet we're a little ways from figuring out a real solution to this that doesn't involve other humans listening approving or rather your smart assistant improving people love to complain about how alexa related around companies the controversy seemed to center on the fact that in many of these since of privacy in july apple had a big scandal around the has recorded that day so sort of like an ongoing to be but we used because it doesn't understand what you're saying the whole thing right like these speakers and these voices

apple smartwater one hundred thirty dollars thirty dollars twenty dollars five hours
Life After Facebook

Gadget Lab Podcast

25:28 min | 1 year ago

Life After Facebook

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus P. H. to the wired world it's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water water. That's pretty smart. Hi Everyone. I'm Michael Calorie. I'm an editor here wired and you are listening to the gadget lab today. We're going to do something a little bit different. Instead of our usual in-studio conversation. We're going to play an an interview with Chris Cox an early and influential facebook employees who left the company earlier. This year Chris was interviewed by our Co host. Here on the show Lauren. Good onstage stage at the wired twenty-five conference just a couple of weeks ago the conversation is pretty wide ranging they talk about facebook. They talk about instagram. They talk about Donald. Trump and lauren gets Chris to cough cough up a little bit of news about what he's going to do next a quick programming note. We'll be off next week for the Thanksgiving holiday but we will be back the first week of December with a regular either roundtable style show with Lauren and Arielle. And I talking about the news and giving you our recommendations so before we believe the interview. I WanNa give you just a little bit of information about the guy. You're going to meet in a minute. Chris Cox joined facebook in two thousand five as one of its first engineers and was instrumental in conceiving and creating the early versions of Keith facebook features including the news feed in two thousand eight. He was named the vice president of product facebook where he built the product management and design teams in two thousand fourteen he. He was promoted to the chief product officer role. He's the person responsible for the company's core APPs and services facebook. What's up instagram and Messenger? He stepped down earlier this this year to pursue new projects focused on climate change. So without further ADO. Here's Lauren. Good in conversation with Chris Cox Recorded Live Wire twenty-five at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco. Chris thank you so much for being here. Thank you everybody for being here there is well. Let's talk about facebook all right. Let's just get about it. You wearing facebook colors too slow. That was intentional. But yes so so. You left facebook as chief product officer. Several months ago I think it was march of this year and interestingly the year before that before you left you had just been promoted to run product not only facebook but also what's up instagram. And and Messenger. So you're really like you're running the product show there. That's four of the six core APPs of the company and then you left a UH. How are you thinking about facebook as a platform right now? Now that you've had several months away from working there oh there's my personal experience. I was there for thirteen years so I started there. When I was twenty? Three I was the I think the thirteenth engineer. And so it's intertwined with my whole like like twenties and thirties was the experience of growing up with the company. Then there's other people miss a lot of the people there and miss some days. I miss the intensity of the work some days. I don't at least for part of the reason that was okay. Leaving was having after twenty sixteen spent a couple of years building out a bunch of the teams that I felt. Were most important to sort of take the lessons that we learned through some of two thousand sixteen and start to put in place institutions. That could help the company be more responsible and be a better communicator on in some of the key issues the misinformation team. I know that's a hot topic right now. It'd be delighted to spend forty minutes on that as well as the the team focused on protecting elections. Just call the election's integrity team as well as the team focused on at risk countries which is countries where there's a There's there's more potent risk of real world harm because of the use of social media and so each of these teams set about forming partnerships with NGOs with good leaders Building up people who cared about working on those things building ways of measuring progress against the problem and ultimately sort of changing the institution. It's obviously not done. See but you felt like it was a good enough place for you to. I felt that the teams were absolutely in a place where they were going to do. A great job with or without me so it's been suggested and reported that part of the reason why you left is physically throughout the time from when you were first promoted to run product at all over over all of these product categories and the time that you left was also around the time that CEO Mark Zuckerberg started to talk more about the future of social networks being private more private and talking about unifying back end systems to ending corruption. And it's been suggested that philosophically there might have been a difference in how you felt versus. How he he felt the future of the company where things were going? Would you say. That's an accurate character ization. It was true both that had been thirteen years and I didn't. It wasn't something I felt. I wanted to spend another thirteen years on social media and also that you know as as mark and I both said we saw things a little bit differently and then those two things combined to help me make that decision and we made that decision together. We spent a long time figuring out. What was the right timing for that and what was the right moment? So how would you characterize how you're feeling about things like Encryption for example in Christian spin big topic here so far this morning. I think we're going to continue to talk about it. I mean I think it's great. I think you think incriptions great do I think it offers an enormous amount of protection. I think we we are still investigating we as an industry. How do you balance protecting the privacy of people's Information and continue to keep people safe? There's not a short the answer to that question but there is a bunch of really important research happening on that question which will be. I think a lot of the important work that these companies do. How do you think a platform like like facebook squares? Encryption with some of the things that you were working on filter bubbles hate speech misinformation some of that the latter category. They seem to require things being a little bit more out in the open encryption. Of course means you're providing a certain layer of protection privacy for people. How do your your beliefs about encryption square with the kind of products you were working on? I mean it certainly makes things some of those things more complicated. I think in a messaging pitching system. There's there's a much higher expectation of privacy which is totally legit. And there's also at least on WHATSAPP. We did some work that many of the I think some folks are here. We did some work to try to understand how you could combat misinformation an encrypted environment and I think we did very good work. Some of it was public education so just doing digital literacy campaigns in India and Brazil prior to elections some of it was building message forwarding systems so so that people could connect with fact checkers then could speak to groups that they were in about what they were seeing. So I think there's a different toolkit than the toolkit that you would use in in a public feed system where you can just start to see what goes viral and for anything. That looks like it's going to go viral. You send it to a fact checker. I think there are pros and cons with these systems. I don't I'm not a hard line on any one of them and I think the decision's the company's making on encryption privacy come from a place that is resonant with what people want which I appreciate. You're saying okay I want. I want to get to eventually what you're going to be doing next okay but I do have more questions about facebook so political advertising yes is something that's been in the news a lot over the last couple of weeks. FACEBOOK has taken. He can bit of a hard line on political advertising. Excuse me twitter has taken more of a hard line and political advertising on its platform whereas facebook said it's going to allow political advertising even if those ads may contain untruths and Mark Zuckerberg spoken a lot about this just yesterday. I should add facebook's books chief policy officer Nick Clegg actually said that they're going to be looking at things like micro targeting a little bit more carefully and so But like how do you feel. FACEBOOK is actually a handling this right now is it. Is this the right approach. Well I think I think what mark and Nick Seddon last couple of days was. They're looking at ways to adopt some of what was suggested in the employee letter. A lot of which I agree with While still taking the stand which is we think political advertising can be good unhelpful it often favors up and comers versus incumbents. I think more often than not which is important if you look at the Democratic field you have a lot the folks who needed a way to find a platform that didn't quite have one yet and that creates diversity which I think is good. They're used a lot in local elections. which I think is important? And it's tied up the question of micro targeting by the way and then there adjacent to issue ads which are ads about a category of twenty-three issues which are political So you have if you want to talk to people about gun control or climate change or immigration reform or women's rights issues. Those are all political political even the NFL as they say the last thing that wasn't political is now political And so I think there's good I think there's good rationale in Alpha supporting these in a system that is designed to help people reach the community of people that want to hear from them and I stand behind that. But what's interesting is it seems teams. You are a proponent of fact checking in general. We've talked about this time. I'm a big Fan. Your big fact checking. We are two at wired. And so you're proponent wanted a fact checking you've said this in earlier interviews you've just said it this interview and and yet it seems as though by facebook saying we're going to allow political advertising -tising all political advertising and we don't really feel necessarily a good thing I'm paraphrasing of course to have fact checking in place for those political ads. Those two things are perhaps not in alignment with one another well. Political ads are their own animal. I mean most political ads are highly partisan and fact checking part or the reason part of the police. I think you want to get to is to find a way of doing some sort of fact checking on these. That's not so partisan I think one of the systems uh-huh that the that I worked on a while ago that the company's been vetting with academics is one that would help submit to some panel of a Representative Panel of people content in order for them to that whether or not they feel it's misleading and ends up at least according into some of the data that the academics were looking ends up being a pretty good system I think companies should investigate and is investigating micro targeting specifically in the political context. Because the thesis of all of this stuff is that it should be out in the open and it is in the political archive but if there's hundreds of variants being run of creative then it's it's tricky to get your arms around what's being said to him. I also think exploring more context in the UI. Both in the consumer consumer experience and in the political archive could be helpful at continuing a position. Where you're looking for ways for fact checking to not be so partisan while l. also giving the user or the consumer good experience spoken like a true product officer tweak the Ui and maybe tweaks are hugely usually impactful? I don't say that lightly and hugely impactful because of the size of the user base or the whole experience is on a phone in one. Hundred pixels axles. So when you had twenty more that are helping people see other points of view or helping people vet sort of whether journalistic institutions have made comments about this a bunch of things. That can be done that. I know the company is exploring one more question about facebook. How how confident are you in? FACEBOOK's ability to mitigate potential issues that may come up as we entered feels like we've already entered and been in for twenty years the twenty twenty the election cycle. Well I can tell you. The company has a whole bunch more resources in terms of money people partnerships programs Not just in the United States but with a lot of the most of the countries where major elections are happening to anticipate these things. I can't be one hundred percent confident in the company can either. But we've put in place like a real immune system That at least accounts for a lot of the issues we saw in two thousand sixteen and again. I saw some of the midterm elections and have also seen looking at other elections around the world so this seems like a good segue to acronym. Yes how people what you're doing with acronym and what Akron acronym acronym acronym acronym one head So I was one of the problems I've been interested in is the progressives in the United States having a good technology stack like good technical infrastructure for understanding how to develop messaging and run campaigns. This is an area where my perception is that the progressives have been behind and on ability to develop and use as a team infrastructure. That helps you have a good voter file how to do develop messaging just basic politics. Twenty nine thousand nine again. That's my impression and I'm not a political expert and you're sitting on the advisory board. Yeah I'm sitting on the board along with. I'm not sitting on the board of directors but I've been helping to advise Tara raise money higher team there's a woman named Tara McGowan runs acronym they're based in Washington. DC They work with progressive organizations like planned parenthood and the ACLU. Their mission is is to help them. Effectively use social media and the Internet. And I believe that it's important that such technology is available for for whomever is our nominee in for the sort of progressive institutions going forward so you by participating in these activities with acronym acronym. I mean. You're really you're aligning yourself with with a set of ideologies. You're saying they're progressive in. I've read about it online. It says is like they want to basically arm the left with digital tools to help them combat some of the more aggressive tactics of the rights. And you Do you feel like you couldn't perhaps have worked on something like this in your role as chief product off surf as at facebook. Not and why is that. I think when you're in a very very senior role at a platform you need to be. You have a duty to be much more neutral in your politics Miazga I think that's part of running a platform whose customers are across the aisle and a lot of different ways. And I think it's part of aiming to have of institutions that can bring the country together so now so you're free now this is in a sense I certainly feel more free okay And this is something I've wanted to work on for a while and I've come to understand at least in my own analysis of what happened since two thousand sixteen it just good execution running a good campaign using the Internet. It's something where I think that that matters a lot because any of this driven by any sort of sense of personal responsibility for having been a part of facebook during the twenty sixteen maybe not in a way I have that direct access to. I definitely felt a sense of personal responsibility for cleaning up a lot of the pieces of the platform that I felt weren't going well but this was just a conviction action. I think trump is should not be our president. The other thing I care a lot about right now is climate change. And he's not going to help us there and four more years at five Giga tons a year. That's a lot of carbon that we're not GONNA get to go back and and take back down unless we build some crazy technology that no one knows about yet. You're listening to the wire twenty five interview with former facebook chief product officer Chris Cox. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get right back into it support for this. podcast comes from smart water. Smart water is for the curious. Fresh fresh thinkers the ones who asked questions are never satisfied with the norm. The ones who believe in doing things the smart way even if it's as simple as drinking water that's why smart aren't waters proud to introduce new smart water alkaline. An antioxidant designed to enhance the every day new. Smart Water Alkaline has nine plus Ph hydration. After working up a sweat and new smart water antioxidant has added Selenium. Both with the smart water taste you know and love hydration with your body and mind in mind smart water. That's pretty smart so in your time since you've left facebook book you were saying earlier. You've you've spent a lot of time. Researching climate change. You have your smart person. You have the resources you know you've been you've really been heads down in this and you're doing something really interesting with a company that works with satellite technology. Talk about this this so there's a really neat company. Company called Planet Labs in San Francisco many of you more of your nodding about them. The acronym they build satellites and designed the satellites and build them right here on Harrison Street. I got to know the CEO and Co founder Will Marshall Very well a bunch of ex-nasa folks worked their division. Vision was to build these small like about shoebox-size satellites with solar panel panel wings and have a fleet of them in space which is real time imaging the earth so every hour you get a snapshot of every tile on Earth at medium resolution which means each pixels about three meters. So this field field has been called remote-sensing remote-sensing normally with something where you could get a picture every few weeks or every few months but with this sort of time resolution and you can start to ask questions like what's going on with wildfires today. How quickly are they spreading spreading deforestation in the Amazon? An active coal power plants. How many coal power plants are firing right now Methane emissions is on the horizon is something that we believe we the industry of of Computer Vision and satellite folks. You may be able to see from space which is crazy because it's a gas but we know methane is a real contributor and it's coming from certain farms refineries and stuff like that so if you could identify leaks you could start to contribute to having a health system where you're basically imaging the earth every hour and then you're creating some public data set with tools that plug into decision-makers banks insurance companies policy makers investors journalists interested persons the the youth like I could imagine in a classroom one day you go and you say this is the earth. Here's a simulation of what it looks like. They're getting pretty ugly by the way as as we update our assessment of the heating that we think might happen by twenty one hundred. My Wife's from Bangkok like it's gone and I think we're still doing such a poor job. We humanity of really wrapping our heads around. How few you precious years? We have an even come to understand this more since leaving the company which to me is why it's one of the most important things you do is try and get got somebody in office. Who can care about this so you? So you're advising planet labs in addition to acronym have a badge like I'm learning about satellites. Yeah I'm learning as much from them and then I'm trying to help them build some software because this is like building software on top of all this really cool satellite imagery. Have you considered considered starting your own company around climate change. You know. I've thought about it and I started to look a little bit. What are some? What are some of the gaps APPs? I'm still so far. I'm still so young at this field that I don't have enough confidence in my own mental model of the world. But it's been really fun starting to go see some of the technologists working on climate change. It's been very interesting you for me. Incredible article in the New Yorker called money is the fuel that fire of climate change Burns on. It's specifically about the financial the industry in the insurance industry. Because there's so much private money that goes into banks and insurance companies that then actually finance coal and oil and gas and that's generally opaque to investors to private wealth funds to countries trees a lot of whom give their money to banks and on the one hand the country saying we're working on a one point five degree plan for for Japan but on the other hand a lot of their money. Money is actually financing. Exactly the problem. which is the supply of money to go build new coal and oil and do fracking and all that other kind of stuff? What do you think big Tex? Responsibility is when it comes to climate change at the very least I think there's great nations I think at the very least it's making a commitment to being carbon negative and that's in manufacturing processes that's in shipping. Even it's a lot easier for facebook and Google than it is for Amazon and Apple. Because we're not running giants supply chains and trucking stuff around the world and packaging packaging things. And so it's easy for facebook to say because it's basically data centers and buildings. It's a lot easier to run. Get a data center on renewable energy than it is to reengineer your entire truck and supply chain system which is Amazon has to think about without said admirably. They've made a commitment to get carbon neutral. I think it's by twenty forty. Actually said they were going to ten years earlier than everybody else. That's right yeah. Let's see if they can meet that. Putting the tactics. Aside Tech is as an actually creating that much carbon I think Amazon's was forty. Four million. I did the math the other day around. Like a percent of United States carbon-offset which is pretty amazing considering what they do one of the interesting metrics to look at it as carbon intensity entity which is per per dollar of GDP. How much carbon is? What's the extra in terms of carbon high? Carbon intensity is a gas company extremely family low carbon intensity is most companies. But I do think tech can lead. We're an industry that in some ways it's still look to as a leader in some ways it's looked at with a squint to see if will improve. I think both of those are healthy but I think we can you start to think about ways of more carefully dialing in our attention to to carbon impact and I don't know exactly what that looks like for big tech but I believe that sort of riling up employees more and getting more power into the hands of the of the officers who are responsible for this that the company is ultimately going to be a good thing. Chris I have to go our out of time but thank you so much pleasure. Thanks everyone food all right. That was Lawrence Conversation with Chris Cox. Thank you for listening. If you want to give us feedback Lee review the show on the PODCAST APP of your choice really elite. We love to hear your thoughts. You can also find us on twitter. Laurien is at loring. Good Arielle is at Terek. I am at snack fight and you can blame the hotline by directing your tweets to add gadget line again will be off next week to stuff. Our faces with Vegan treats on Thanksgiving Day. But you will hear from us again the first week of December until then

facebook Chris Cox chief product officer Amazon Lauren United States twitter Mark Zuckerberg Trump Arielle vice president of product Michael Calorie officer CEO editor Donald smartwater Planet Labs
Finally, We Can Like Apples Keyboards Again

Gadget Lab Podcast

27:30 min | 1 year ago

Finally, We Can Like Apples Keyboards Again

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus P. H. to the wired world it's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water order. That's pretty smart. Hi Everyone I'm hi I'm Lauren. Good a senior writer at wired. And you're listening to the gadget lab. I'm joined by my co hosts wired senior editor Michael Caloric and wired senior writer RL partisan. Hey today we're gonna be talking about Ch- changes that was really bad. Instagram is changing a feature. That a lot of people would argue is fundamental to the way the platform works well. Apple has made a change to a laptop keyboards so they finally do work or so. We hope but first. We're GONNA talk about instagram last week instagram. CEO Outta massery announced that they played a test a feature where instagram hides like counts for users rather than explain it myself. I'm going to put on the spot here because she was actually onstage at wired twenty-five our annual conference in San Francisco with the head of Instagram. Adam Azeri when he dropped this news actor Tracy Ellis Ross was also interviewed on stage. It was a delightful interview. She's a delightful person but Arielle tells the news news about instagram lakes. And take us through that conversation happily happily so for context adamantly has just finished his first year as the head of instagram he took over after co-founders Kevin System and Mike. Krieger left And it's been a big year for the company so I wanted to basically have a conversation about what year was like where he sees the future of the platform and whether or not instagram is good for people and seems to grapple with that responsibility. Quite it's consciously he. He brought up some big problems that are on the platform like hate speech but also these more acute problems like how young people are feeling when they use it and the social social pressures that come with instagram so atom basically said on stage at the place that he wants instagram to lead and innovate is on that piece around wellbeing being or combating bullying and one of the small but hopefully impactful ways that he wants to change things is by removing some of the social pressure around around lakes. So actually I'll let him explain some of the rationale for this himself. Here's a little clip of how atom justified this in that conversation we had. It's about young people ideas ideas. Try and depressurize instagram. Make it less of a competition. Give people more space to focus on connecting with people that they love things that inspire them. It's really focused about young people. Young people you have to see how it affects people feel about the platform how it affects how they use the forum how to fix crater ecosystem. But I'm been spending a lotta time on this personally. So that's some of the justification around the decision to remove the likes but instagram is also doing tons of other things around around bullying One of the examples that Adam said on stage was the platform has introduced little points of friction. Where they think you might be bullying someone so so they'll give you a little bit more space before they suggest That you tag someone in a particular post and you can actually restrict the way that somebody else interacts with you on the platform. So if you're bullying me I can hit this button called restrict and that makes it a little bit harder for you to tag me in anything it. It makes it a little harder for you to send me messages And these are all just sort of small little ways. They're trying to change behavior on the platform. That part's really fascinating. And I think we should probably note that this hiding likes. That's going to happen. It's it's limited right. It's being tested. It's not for everybody. I think some of the initial headlines that came out after your conversation conversation with autumn just indicated that it was a sweeping sweeping measure. How is this actually going to roll out? Yeah that's a great point to make so they've been testing this in seven in different countries and the United States will be the eighth market. They're testing this in but it is technically a test that means that not every single. Instagram user will have this feature feature. It also means they're not committed necessarily to rolling this out as a permanent product feature though I did ask him on stage like is the company committed to doing this even if it means hidden engagement and he said yes that that was the sacrifice that they would be willing to make if this improves the wellbeing of its users. We will make decisions that the business if they're good for people's well being health because it has to be good for the business over the long run say like because that's not the the norm. I think it should be. I do WanNa be careful here though because well being is like I mean there's there's a lot of research behind wellbeing being means there's academic definitions etc.. We don't know that this is going to be good for people's medical wellbeing but that is spiritual what we're trying to trying to reduce anxiety. We're trying to reduce social comparison. These are issues that are becoming more acute particularly with young people particularly in a mobile first world. But I WANNA make sure I'm not overstepping and claiming something that I don't have scientific proof. Also Mike what do you make of this well. I think the thing that's interesting is that massery was very clear that this is a change that they wanna make to make the platform better for the people in particular the young people and he did say that you know if it harms the business. That's okay but I do wonder how it's going to affect all the influencers who answers and all the brands on instagram. That rely on likes in order to promote themselves right so I mean also be able to like a photo on instagram. I'll also be able to like a video. It's just when I'm scrolling through my feet. I won't see which photos have. How many likes and so? It's going to keep showing me things that it thinks I I want to engage with but I'm not GonNa have any signal that I should engage with it because maybe I wanNA give it a like to make it better or not give like because it already has forty thousand likes or something Ping like that. I'm not sure that's the way that people expect instagram to work. So it's going to be a very big shift and I wonder if the people who rely on Instagram for businesses are going for their business. There are going to be affected by this. You know the the whole thing about if we ask you to mention a product in your post host and it gets ten thousand lakes. We'll give you a bonus. Is that sort of business model going to go away for influence on the platform and if it does the influencers go somewhere else else. Does everybody else keeps going on using instagram. There's a lot of gray area there that I don't know how it's GonNa shake out. Yeah that's really interesting. I was meeting with an Entrepeneurship the other day who runs the popular direct to consumer company. And when I mentioned that this change would be happening. They literally wiped out their phone and made a note. You know to check up on how this is going to impact their business because for a lot of direct to consumer brands. INSTAGRAM is huge. It's a huge way for them to market themselves. It creates a relatively low cost approach to customer acquisition. You see people you can get a sense of how your customer base or your fans are feeling based on the comments that they leave and in general it seems as though on instagram. At least this is the way I use it. Once you see. Somebody has exceeded a certain number of likes. You're more likely just like it yourself because it gives you the sense of anonymity like you're just another person in the whole messy box of things and that you're like is less likely to really be noticed in some way the flip side though there are a lot of people who buy instagram followers which creates this really disingenuous experience. I was reading this article on the cut the other day and and it's titled. I'm a normal person and I buy my instagram followers. The writer is anonymous but identifies as a thirty five year old woman from Chicago and she explains Lanes. How for as little as ten bucks? You can buy five hundred followers at a at a clip and then they start to slowly like your stuff more and more and then eventually they go away and then you have to buy more. It's this revolving door of purchased followers to me just seems like that person is just inflating blading their presence on instagram in a way that feels authentic is disingenuous and maybe by cutting back on lakes you remove that inauthentic experience be also removed the pressure for some of these people who feel like they're worth is based on instagram. Likes yeah well first of all. Thank you so much for reading my piece in the kite. Sure thank thank you. I think that's on. INSTAGRAM has actually said a lot to that effect that they want to shift the experience on instagram. From one of social comparison parison to one of social conversation right you should be focusing on the content not the lakes or the number of followers that that particular coast receives. I heard some interesting cynical gossip around this though that the company may be doing this because it engenders good. Pr Are and seems like a nice thing to do but actually it just disguises. From the fact that instagram is already seeing a drop in engagement. And this can help explain some some of those numbers are dwindling. Even though they're dwindling already it's a preemptive. Move Way I mean that's I don't have a lot of evidence is to support that but I think as much as we're commending the company for this move which we should be. I think it's a great move. I think they're also maybe more cynical reasons. Why a company as big as instagram would be interested in this their company's biggest facebook train so I'm really curious about what's going to happen if it doesn't work like the goal here is to make instagram a better place to depressurize it to make it more inviting to more kinds of people especially young people so what happens if it doesn't work mark and the company still sees the same social pressures as it did even when likes were on the platform so if everybody all of a sudden can't see likes anymore and and they still feel the same pressure? How else can the company depressurize? What other sorts of things can it do to get the same effect? If this doesn't work. Yeah that is is the million dollar question and something that Instagram is grappling with. Already like they know that likes are not going to be the thing that changes the environment on Instagram Graham. Right it's like one very small thing that will hopefully have some impact but it's got to be part of a much broader push right so some of the work they're already doing is around using the things like machine learning to filter out toxicity. To try and subtly nudge people's behavior toward things that are nice away from things that look like bullying But they have a lot more work to do one of the really interesting examples that came out of our conversation with Adam was around. How instagram deals with subtle aggressive? Ziff behavior He mentioned that instagram already works with lots of researchers and mental health organizations that specifically study aggression online and some some of the interesting things they found are that you might do something that's aggressive like. Let's say I post a photo with Lawrence crush and then Lauren feels hurt right by that but nobody except for me and Lauren will know that that's bullying right otherwise it just looks normal. So they're working on all these different ways to sort of like unwind into that kind of behavior but it's very very difficult and complicated and it's it's got to involve something much more intricate than just disappearing. The likes yeah. Maybe it's unreasonable unreasonable. To expect that these small changes as big as as big as they may be because of the number of people they affect to think that it's going to change social science dance and the way in which we behave as human beings. I'm pretty sure people have been like. I Dunno parading around other people's crushes for all of eternity. I'm never telling telling you my crushes exactly but yeah but like all these kinds of behaviors bullying. Unfortunately it's something that happens. In real life life is well it translates to social platforms it is sometimes amplified by social platforms. But maybe it's too much to ask to buy instagram experimenting with moving moving alike that we're going to fix some of the larger ails of social media at least at this point in time. Well that was a great conversation and I highly recommend that everybody. When you're done listening thing to this podcast go to our website that is wired dot com? And you can watch orioles entire interview with massery and Tracy Ellis Ross. It's really great. We're GONNA take a break and when we return. We're GONNA talk about Apple's terrible laptop keyboards be right back. Support support for this podcast comes from smartwater. smartwater is proud to share stories of people who do everything and anything to get their ideas out into the world. Inspired by fresh thinkers offers. Smart Water has more ways to stay hydrated. Smart Water Alkaline with nine plus Ph from when you work up a sweat doing what you love and smart water antioxidant with added Selenium hydration with your body and mind in mind smart water. That's pretty smart Welcome back to the gadget lab on Wednesday of this week. Apple announced a new line of sixteen inch macbook pros. It's a pretty standard laptop upgrade with one one big change. It has a brand new keyboard. Finally our problems are over. We think maybe at least we hope are I still don't have a working Iki we on my macbook pro from two thousand seventeen so all right to back up a little bit. The last generation of macbooks had a bunch of issues with their keyboards. Keys would get stuck there are prone to getting debris and dust under them or would break off entirely. which is what happened in my case? The problem stemmed from the fact that the keyboards had been designed with something called a butterfly. I switch and that is one of the changes made with these new macbook Pros Mike. Let's back it up a little bit. What are butterfly switches? Why are they different from regular keyboards? What is apple doing sure Let me put on my nerd. Glasses a wait. No I wear them all the time. So a scissor switch which is is the normal laptop keyboard switch. is like an x shaped spring that sits underneath the key cap. Sort of like a like a little scaffolding really springy scaffolding scaffolding and when you press the key it squish is down and then you let go and it pops back up now. A butterfly switch which is the one that's in the most recent macbook pros not the new one but the the ones that everybody has a problem with uses a butterfly switch It's called that because it looks like a butterfly it has has a little crease down the middle and then two little wings that sort of come up underneath the key in a V shape so when you press on it. The Butterfly's wings basically flatten and then they spring back up into v-shape when you let go A butterfly switch has its advantages because the mechanism is shorter in height. So you can make a thinner laptop with a keyboard that is You know thinner flush against the the the body of a of the laptop But it has one big disadvantage which is that Because those Little Butterfly Wings have to flatten all the way down in order to register key depress if anything gets underneath the butterfly wings like a crummy or a toenail or something. You never know right. This is a laptop thing about all the places. You use your laptop. Cut Your toenails in front of your laptop. Thank you very much take it. They find their way in there. Okay absolutely everywhere. Did they walk by themselves after you. Okay okay continue keyboard. So because the butterfly's wings have to flatten all the way down if something gets under there than it could prevent that from happening and and you won't register a key press also it can depending on what kind of debris it's under there. What kind of chrome we're talking about? It could cause it to stick and then you get like double presses presses out of every keystroke so apple is doing away with that switch replacing it with these superior but requires more height. SCISSOR switch we. You should give a shout out to Casey Johnson who wrote a story for the outlined back in the fall of two thousand seventeen identifying some of the major issues that she was having with her macbook keyboard really for the first time calling out apple for this Poor Design Wall Street Journal columnist. Joanna Stern later wrote a column I think she wrote the entire hire column without her key because like me her Iki had stopped working. A Lotta people have been calling out this problem. Apple has maintained that is a small fraction fraction or percentage of its total user base. Who have complained about these issues? Apple has never really formerly apologize. They have instituted things like a repair program. He he should come in with a bum keyboard. But it's not really the company styled come out and say hey we messed up instead. They've just they've just tried to fix the thing now. And it's going to be available on this sixteen inch macbook pro and hopefully coming to more MAC books in the future. What do you make of this? Yeah I mean I read this interesting interview with Phil Schiller who's apples. VP of of marketing. where he sort of faded the apology but did acknowledge that apple has gotten a lot of feedback and the feedback back from the Perot users in particular has been a big part of designing this new keyboard that interview also mentioned that Apple has done research on the physiology of typing and the quote psychology of typing? which I don't know what that means but it's so apple I would love to know more more? Yeah I mean I think the point here though is that like the company has taken at least. It's pro customers complaints into account a little. I bet and has designed something that feels really pro. Whether or not that trickles down is a little bit remains to be seen also. We should note that. It's an expensive computer. That's right at starts at twenty four hundred dollars and goes up from there. I've been seeing. Some people tweet. Their screen shots of customizing fully loaded machine and it gets close to six thousand dollars. I think so that is for pros. That's not for average people but that said I don't think that a working functional keyboard on a laptop should be limited to people who could afford this. I I've really I mean. I think it's time for apple to just fess up. Admit they made a mistake. We're entering the Post. Johnny Ive era make things thicker. Give the people what they want and what they want is a working keyboard across all the laptops they could potentially by you know the the the keyboards approach future rest rest of us. The rest of US peasants will just have to go with missing ease. We can't even spell. Hasn't can you spell hot garbage that you let's put. JVM right exactly all right on that note. We're going to take another quick break without the when we come back we're going to recommendations. How do you say that without any every time you listened to a podcast astor go online? You get another ad for another mattress. There are thousands of them. And you know what they're all fine. It's something to sleep on. But only one uses technology. She and temperature to give you the deepest sweetest sleep. The pod by eight sleep is the very first bed to combine dynamic temperature regulation and sleep tracking to ensure. You're getting the best. I sleep possible. Research shows the deep link between sleep performance and temperature. So the pod reacts in real time to your body's unique needs adjusting the temperature to keep you comfortable and sleeping. I'm deeply all night long. This dat say it all customers who sleep on the pod fall asleep faster toss and turn twenty five percent less and have a seventeen percent increase in periods of deep sleep. All in a crazy comfortable bed. That's why it's the fitness approved bed loved by athletes trainers and models right. Now get one hundred and fifty dollars off your pod and free shipping when you go to sleep dot com slash wired that's eight sleep dot com slash wired e I G H T sleep dot com slash wired wired all right. We're back for my favorite part of the show. We're GONNA talk about recommendations we didn't give you our recommendations commiserations Mike. Why don't you go first? I want to recommend a watch so since this is the gadget lab. I WANNA recommend a gadget. It's a watch too dumb watch. It's NAUTA smartwatch. I'm sort of anti smartwatch. These days I just like watches that tell time that don't ever need to be charged. Necessarily so this is a watch by a company called one eleven and it's solar powered it's called the S W to They have a bunch of different colors. They're all kind of fun. They're Kinda Surfie in a way It's a watch that has a solar panel on the front but you can't tell it's a solar panel and the case is made out of bio resin and the strap is made out of of RECYCLED PT water bottles. So it's like a very ocean friendly very environmentally friendly watch and it's pretty cheap. Seventy five dollars. Hey now yeah so for like you know. An Echo minded solar powered watch. It's a great. It's a great Bargain It's also really stylish. I like it a lot. Now if you have sort of like a like a Surfie Sporty beechy mindset. It's probably going to fit your style more so than if you're like a You know suits and fancy dress kind of person however Maybe just make it your weekend watch so yeah. I'm looking at it right now. And One elevens Evans website and what Levin by the ways and then at the name of a band three eleven. Oh okay regardless. I want eleven's website right now and this does remind me a little bit of like Nixon Watch of Nixon made watches that had more traditional faces like freestyle. Look it has a velcro band in you know feels if you'll surfer but anyway that's that's my recommendation. I was wearing one for about a month and I really loved it and it charges in artificial light and in natural trolling which is great for office. Workers in the company says that they are committed to donating one percent of all sales to environmental causes to which is really nice. Good on them. How did you find out about let them facebook post from an old friend lovely? Yup facebook bringing everybody together. Connecting the world really Arielle. What's your recommendation? My recommendation is something to read about not connecting the world. This is the December cover story of the Atlantic. And it's called how America ends. It's it's really beautifully written piece about. Some of the problems plaguing American democracy in what happens when part of depopulation knows that it can no longer win elections but can't afford not to so it draw some comparisons between this moment in political history with the civil war and what happens when a group of politicians has to resort to sort of undemocratic measures to stay in power I found it super interesting. It's beautifully written. It gave me totally new perspective on sort of what the Republican Party could be doing right now in particular. It makes his argument that the Party needs to strengthen the center right if it wants to get out of this moment in history vibrant. Republican Party depends on the centrist interest. Right now more than ever so interesting read not super hopeful. I very very well articulated. And who wrote this Yoni Oni Appelbaum. Who is the person who leads the Atlantic's ideas section? They've been doing some really great work over there lately. Yeah yeah they really have its greatest wired of course but the Atlantic has very strong staff and they've been doing some great stuff we also have an idea section learn. What's your recommendation? My will my first recommendation would be if you you read that. And then you're feeling a little bit sad afterwards as you might. I just read on the train yesterday. Taffy ackner's profile of Tom. Hanks yes solent so uplifting chaser about just every man you know seemingly nice guy but anyway my real recommendation this week is the book how to do nothing. I know I'm chasing most of the staff on this because everybody at word seems to really like this book. But it's a book written by Jenny Dell. She's an Oakland based artist. Wrote a book. Talk about conscientiously doing nothing and by doing nothing. She doesn't mean literally nothing. She means doing nothing as active resistance to the attention economy that that has been built up around us. She describes the book as not quite a book of Activism. And not quite a self help book but somewhere in the middle. It's a series of essays and essays kind of in the traditional sense of her going on a journey through a different. I don't know just exploring different areas of our attention economy and what our overwhelming desire to be productive. All the time has done to our psyches and our overall well being And how we should really embrace our free time more and and Embrace art more to in these like seemingly really challenging times. I admit I'm not finished with yet but I've been just tearing through it and I really really like it. I've already recommended to people in the time that I started reading it so I'm recommending to all of you are fine listeners. Another thing that I really want to do that I recommend to everybody. I WANNA sleep more in two thousand twenty. That's a goal of mine and I'm taking a page from rl here because reo is a sleeper yourself. Describe Sleeper Mike Dallas the story about when Arial for started working together what she told. Ah One of the first things that I learned about. You Arielle is that you told me I may sleepy sleepy girl still am yes. Reo All this comes in. Like she's refreshed and she's fantastic writer and she's productive but like productive in the sense that you kind of have to get your job done not over productive and the Genio. Del Sense that she's trying to tell us to get away from like you. Very rarely seen like frenzy. Eat like you're just kind of like I don't know you're on it. You're on it anyway. I've never ninety. He didn't. I'm convinced that I want to sleep more. And be like Arielle in two thousand twenty and to that note. You should also go read Sarah. Harrison's article dot com this week about how sleep is really important in for cleansing your brain like you have to sleep or you will die. Yeah is very bad for you to be understood you have to sleep in or you will die sooner. Yeah so or succumb to some kind of horrible brain disease. We're GONNA follow your lead on this and by the end of next year we will all be more like you all right. That's our show for this week. Thank you so much for listening. You want to give us feedback. You can leave us review on your podcast APP of choice really. We would love to hear your thoughts. We take your feedback very seriously tried to incorporate it in the show so you can also ping all of us on twitter. Mike is at snack. Fight Arielle at Partisan Tarik. I'm at loring. Good with an e at the end. Our producer. Boone Ashworth is acting Ashworth and you can also add up in the main handle and that's at gadget lab. Thank you again for listening and we will be back next week

Instagram Apple Arielle writer Mike Dallas Adam Azeri United States San Francisco Tracy Ellis Ross wired smartwater CEO Krieger senior editor P. H. Kevin System Michael Caloric twitter
When Big Tech Buys Your Darlings

Gadget Lab Podcast

26:27 min | 1 year ago

When Big Tech Buys Your Darlings

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus P. H. to the wired world it's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water order. That's pretty smart. Hi Everyone I'm mooring. Good a senior writer at wired. And you're listening to the gadget lab. I'm here with my co hosts wired senior writer. Arial partisan hello and and wired senior editor Michael Calorie Aloha today. We're talking about what happens when big tech takes over smaller products later in the show. We'll talk about Google. Buying fit fitbit raising the question of whether Google has outsize control and power over the tech we use but I facebook introduced a new logo on Monday day instead of facebook. It's now they spoke. I'm trying to say that with emphasis. Not sure if I accomplished that but basically it's facebook in all caps and that logo is now a lot more prominent all facebook's platforms. Reo You wrote about this for wired dot com. What exactly is facebook doing here? Well facebook. Excuse me facebook has been moving toward this kind of brand consistency for a while. Now you'll recall that over the summer. The company added facebook. The name to its other products products so instagram became instagram from facebook. More clearly labelling. Who owns that product? It's also pushed integrate. Its various messaging services on the back end and so some day soon. You may send a message on what's up and it'll show up on someone else's messenger APP or instagram or something like that And it started reporting out it's quarterly growth numbers in the aggregate so it stopped breaking out users from instagram and Messenger and WHATSAPP facebook separately. And just referring to them all as as users of the facebook family so the rebranding here is really just like a visual expression of that. There's a truly hilarious designed blog that facebook put out explaining each of the little decisions. It's made here. It includes language like and this is a quote the subtle softening of the corners and diagonals adds a sense optimism. Empathetic Color Palettes writing a color Palette. But really what this rebranding is doing is reminding you that facebook. The company is more than just facebook. The APP Mark Zuckerberg really wants you to know that big blue is not the only thing to associate with that name. It's actually a family of APPS. It's sort of like one of those family portraits where everyone is wearing like a white button down in jeans and no one looks really happy and the kids are like. I don't even want to be in this family. But they're all like matching and pretending to smile for the camera. That's that's facebook Mike. What's your take on this? I have one of those family only photos. Are you like at the beach No we're in a photo studio. It grows more and more horrifying each year. When I'm waiting to happen is for the person person in the photo to age and for me to look like still nineteen but that hasn't happened yet That's my wish every Christmas So the most interesting thing for me about the rebranding is something that I saw in one of the reports that I read it was in Bloomberg They spoke to the chief marketing officer at facebook. His name is Antonio Luccio Luccio and he said that they're actually internal discussions at the company about changing the name of the larger company of Facebook to something else Allah alphabet and Google. So there would be like a bigger company that has a different name and then facebook has just one product within within that company. But they didn't do that. I think probably for obvious reasons right like facebook is such a powerful brand and they want to be the company that brings you the tools that you love like instagram. Graham is from facebook instagram from town or whatever they would call should get in touch with that marketing officer. Perhaps just Zucker doc town. Yes Zach town. USA The global citizen. But you know I think that the reason that they did it is probably because they didn't want to be perceived as running being away from all the problems that they've had over the last couple of years with data. Privacy with you know trolls and election tampering and the free speech issues that they're dealing with right now now with the current election And it probably would have thrown off that that perception The other thing that I'm thinking about is how. Who is this? Branding going to roll out over the world because the perception of facebook here in the United States specifically with all the things that we just mentioned about the problems is that they're having is very different from perception that facebook has in Germany or in India or in Philippines in the Philippines. Right like like in India. You know what's APP is a huge impact on culture. Everybody uses it to exchange information. They're like these big TEX chats And people drop drop memes and videos into them You know their perception of facebook is of like a a giant that violates privacy than how is that going going to affect their perception of what's up now that it's much more clear that what's opposite product to facebook. I think those are excellent questions and I do think that it's the timing of this is interesting. And maybe a little odd given the antitrust concerns and investigations that are happening right now with facebook in United States specifically but I agree with you on another point. which is this idea that facebook wants to be the company that brings you the APPs that you still love? I think it's part of an an effort to help you to try to anyway foster goodwill among its community all those feelings that people make right now from being on facebook big blue which is the main it. News App don't necessarily translate to other APPS like instagram which has become kind of glossy aspirational magazine for Modern Times. Or what's APP. which is you point out is a giant utility not just in the US but for people around the world and back when we talked about the portal facebook video chatting piece of hardware that you put in your kitchen counter when we talked about that on this show show earlier? I joked that maybe in some way facebook is trying to earn goodwill among the kids. Because I don't think future generations are looking at the big Lou. FACEBOOK APP the way that we have Effectively growing up some of our more formative years of our twenties and thirties with facebook right And like you know quote unquote. Older under people are using facebook to like connect with grandparents and like share photos of their adult kids and things like that but like the kids growing up now aren't using facebook in that same way way but they may be using instagram. They may be using what's up and they may be using a other APPs that facebook could eventually acquire and so facebook is basically shouting shouting facebook now which each of those apps and I think. Rl brings an analogy about that. You know it being a designer brand at stamping its name. I'm one of its other perhaps lesser collections. But making it still well known to everybody like this is a facebook products. Do you like this. Maybe you'll maybe you'll like us a little bit more. Yeah remember when in target started introducing all of its little designer collections than target suddenly became not this like lame department store that sold groceries and also bad closed but like the department store that everyone loves spending time in wants to be target wants. It doesn't want to be targeted once the day and I love a good target collection. I'm GONNA be honest. They have some cool stuff they absolutely do. Although city target is kind of weird city targeted is is like portal has a car off. It's not for most people but grandparents love it You know one less thing about out. FACEBOOK is that I use facebook light which is like the low bandwidth version of the APP at their carbs? Yes exactly if your carbs It's it's yeah facebook. Ultra it's really good because it doesn't have animations Videos don't auto play you have to tap through to see the high resolution version of any photo. That's it's uploaded there You know the emoji reactions. Don't jump out of the screen or anything they just appear and like it doesn't have any soft corners. It doesn't have any special Russell. typography everything is like high visibility low animation. It doesn't feel soft at all. It feels like you know two thousand four on the web and like honestly that's what I like about it too using it as utility but we should also just make the point before we go to the next topic that like this is all a perception thing thing at the end of the day. What's APP is still an application that could be used for civil unrest INSTAGRAM could still be a platform for political disinformation. And especially now that we've seen facebook. Take some sort of stance and how it's going to handle political ads in this upcoming election cycle in the US. I mean all of the problems still exist on facebook but they they have done this this rebrand and it's our responsibility to try to dissect that Okay let's take a quick break and then when we come back we're going to talk about Google and fitbit support for this. PODCAST comes from smartwater smart water for the curious. Fresh thinkers the ones who ask questions questions and they're never satisfied with the norm. The ones who believe in doing things the smart way even if it's as simple as drinking water that's why smart water is proud to introduce new Smart Water Alkaline an antioxidant designed to enhance the every day new. Smart Water Alkaline has nine plus Ph hydration. After working up a sweat and new smart water. Antioxidant has added Selenium both with the smart water taste you know and love hydration with your body and mind in mind and smart water. That's pretty smart. Welcome back to the gadget lab late last week. Google announced it would Bhai activity and health tracking company fit for two point one billion dollars both companies put out statements about this. Google says it bought Fitbit to bring together the best. Ai Software in hardware in order to spur innovation and wearables and fitbit for its part said it never sells your data. Health data will not be used for Google's advertising purposes. Of course. There's still lots of questions about how this data will otherwise be used by Google and there's also the very real question whether the deal will be approved by us. Regulators especially especially since Google is already being scrutinized. Let's put that aside for a moment though and let's just say the deal goes through. What does it mean for Google on fit? Mike would you like to start Sure I I think it means we're going to see a lot more. Google branded things that you put on your body right so google has always been really good good at buying hardware companies so that they could catch up to the competition right like they bought the mo the bulk of each. TC's smartphone phone team which now works on the Pixel. They also bought a portion of fossil. We're not really sure exactly how much if also they bought her. Which parts of fossil about but basically there are taking that team applying to wearable technology? So now you know fitbit has great experience in wearables. And they have all the the health tracking stuff and like the data visualizations in the APP. They're going to be using all of that so there well poised to catch up to their main competitors in the wearable terrible business and it's important to note that now they have essentially. What apple has they have a phone? They're gonNA have a watch. They're you're going to have the software that controls at all and they're going to have the cloud services that power all of it so they're going to be able to play with the full stack and I think that is probably what this means for the future of Google. Yeah but it's not just a hardware playwright like this is also hugely about data. Google LE The they are a data company and buying fifth. It means that they get data from twenty eight million users who have been recording. Their step counts their heart rate readings. Is there sleep time. Their menstrual cycles their location It's sort of unclear exactly how Google will use this but I think it's unquestionable that that's a big big attractive piece of buying fit bit and that they'll continue to get this data from people who continue to wear fifth and Google branded devices. I think it's fair to say on some level that this better positions google to compete with apple and hardware. But I think that's on a superficial level sure Google has the Pixel Pixel and. I think it's a nicely designed smartphone. And now they're going to have a watch if they keep fitbit's watch business we don't know if they will thrilled just take the IP and they'll make something thing of their own you know the fifth that Ip combined with the fossil Ip Right. They certainly have the parts to make something. But he's certainly don't have the manufacturing prowess of a company like apple either and they're not shipping at the same volume as apple. And perhaps in some way google use that argument to regulators to say you know here's why the steel should go through because in hardware specifically health tracking. We really haven't made that much of a dent But I do WanNa play a little audio clip for marketplace which is NPR's ars flagship economic news program and this clip is from June of two thousand fifteen. This is the day that fitbit became a publicly traded company and Co founder and CEO. James Park was asked about the potential of acquisition. Let's say just for argument's sake the Tim Cook the CEO of Apple. Who's got I think? One hundred ninety billion dollars in the bank comes to you and says says I'll give you James Two billion dollars for your company. What are you say you know? We've really never been focused on Exits as a company really. The key to success has been being really heads down and focusing on growing the business over the years. That was kind of an interesting pregnant pause after the UM go again. We're focused on business. So obviously in this case the question was about apple buying fit for two billion dollars dollars not google. But what's striking is how determined park is not to entertain thoughts of exited that point in time in say instead. The company's path to success is just putting it's head down down and working on fifth it and I think that fitbit should definitely be viewed as an early success story in this era of wearables but it also shows exactly what happens when you put your head down and big tech decides to come in and do the exact thing you're doing I mean really fitbit's position in the market became weakened once the Apple Watch came in two thousand fifteen and also once. Chinese manufacturers started making wearables that you could buy for fifteen dollars the Xiaomi Mi band that did almost exactly the same thing. That fitbit did so. I think I caught a little bit flatfooted. I think a lot of people really love fitbit. I think on the downside we I really don't know yet exactly how Google is going to use this company. Can we just talk for a minute. About what a Pixel Watch would look like sure because I'm not dropping ping this as as a Pixel user. I think this this is like tremendously exciting exp- especially exciting to me. Because I hate smart watches. Yeah I do wear a connected wearable. But it's the the winnings won the first steel activity tae because it has hands on it and it looks like a watch and you look at it and it tells you the time which is exactly what I want but it also counts my steps. They make version that does heart rate. But I don't like you either. Write it uses a coin cell so the one that does heart right. You have to charge like once every five days or so Which I was not into because then I would just it would just go in the drawer? which is what a lot of people with fits right so I'm really excited about Pixel Watch? So what do you think this like your Ivy Ross. Right now who we've had on this show before right. She leads design for the Google hardware. Where team well what are you? What are you drafting? At this moment. I'm not as cool as I but yeah thank you I think it's well it's going to have an led screen. Probably right it's going to be able to do all the things that a high end fitbit does is going to be able to send and receive or it's going to be able to send you notifications. It's going going to be able to access Google assistant on your phone it's going to have. GPS It will probably have connectivity. So you can connect to Google's wireless ear buds and it will almost certainly have a heart rate tracking monitor on an end will be directly tied into Google health. Which is on your phone so you know beyond Matt? I duNNo. It's GonNa it's GonNa look cool. It's going to match you know Google's visual aesthetic for other wearables that they've made like glass. No just kidding like the ear buds And I don't know I think there is also possibility that will see lighter versions of the the whole Pixel smartwatch thing we may see the e ink screen. We may see one that just has like a plastic shield and you tap it and led's shine through the plastic and shows the time sort of like a fuel band did back in the day. Unlike other wearables have done so similar to how Google now has the Pixel three but they also have the pixel three a which is a lower cost lightweight version of the Pixel. You'd think they would do a lighter weight version of the watch. Yeah I like the economics of it are different like I. I think that is particularly a market driven decision but I think that the the watch thing would be more about. What are you looking for in terms of utility like you'd have a full featured smartwatch? You'd have the Google Apple Watch and then you would have something. That's a lot more lightweight. And maybe more fashionable maybe looks better on people with smaller wrists and is less intrusive as far as its presence presence on your body and what it does. You know like it doesn't buzz. You can't talk to it so I don't know it's just. It's a wide open path of anticipation for me. Right now. There is also watch that was being developed by verily which is Google's parent company Alphabet Bet has another company called verily that's Health Sciences Company. And they had they had talked a little bit about this watch that was only for internal use and it was a very low powered our data gathering wristwatch that they were using as part of internal health studies. But Yeah I kind of wonder what Google's intentions CNN's may be with fitbit when it comes to institutional health as well as just tracking your steps in your sleep and all that other consumer facing stuff. Yeah well well this was very fitting conversation. Oh no this is what happens when I host. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back we'll do recommendations All right we're back recommendations. Reo You go first. What's yours I'm going to recommend something that I believe. I have recommended before. But it's a product. I love approach. I continue to buy and have just bought again for the fifth or sixth time. It is the elect turn nineteen seventeen notebooks. These are just Super Nice high-quality notebooks you can get them in all sizes in all shapes and all colors and they are lovely. I just use them. I sort of jotting down my thoughts. Sometimes when I'm stressed I like to watercolor and the pages of these hold water really well which is like a rare thing a notebook the ones I buy a little dots. So they're good for people who bullet journal. I don't personally bullet journal. But if that's something you're into you can totally do that. That I like the dots because it frees you up to either write or draw or scatcherd make charts victim charts for myself charts in watercolor color. Sometimes yeah I feel like a new you pretty well but this watercolor thing is blowing my mind good at it. But it's just something that I do when I'm stressed and it's like I don't know just want to put on music and choosing out of my head for a little sure. Yep Anyway they're really nice like I said this is like my fifth or sixth one third grade. I have very important question for you. Do you finish your notebooks. Oh yeah he fill them all the way to the end. Yeah this is like I had to buy a new one because I've filled four or five of them. Do you finish your notebooks. Yes yes I am so bad about this also like if it's like December and I have five pages left I just get a new one and start a new one in January. I try to do like one notebook per year. Although like this one I started in January and like it's done big your home. Any half filled notebooks I think it's also because I often by MUCCI. She notebooks in their three dollars a pop and then sometimes the binding isn't that greed and if it starts to come out of the holes a little bit or something very spill something on it and looking at it it bothers me. It costs very little to just get a new notebook. guested yeah turn nineteen seventeen. They're hard bound. So there are a little bulky to carry around but like them. That's a great recommendation. Maybe that's going to be my twenty twenty goal by one of those fill it in fill it all the way to the end do it Mike. What's your recommendation? So I'm recommending a cookbook. It is called the complete Mediterranean Cookbook and the author is America's test kitchen. So we love America's test kitchen because they do a great job of thoroughly testing all the recipes and techniques were the recipes which they right into the recipes in there cookbooks And this book came to me because I have been trying to crack this cuisine for a little while but there is something called the Mediterranean Diet. which is what a lot of people we'll do? A you know a lot of lagoons a lot of vegetables with the occasional fish so because that is sort of a fad. There are a lot of of cookbooks out there with Mediterranean in the title which are geared specifically towards people who were just like doing a diet and the Mediterranean Diet. And actually this cookbook talks about. That is not something that you do as a diet. It is a way of life. It's a way of eating and it's a way of like changing like this is what you're going to eat for breakfast from now on. These are the types of preparations. You're going to do when you make these items that you've been making your whole life so it's sort of about changing you know who you are are and how you eat throughout the day More so than it is just like. Here's a bunch of recipes. You can eat if you WANNA lose weight. It's a great book to have because there's so many wonderful the vegetable recipes in there. So if you say or if you just like want to incorporate more vegetables just get this book it's amazing. It's called the complete Mediterranean cookbook. And it's by America's test kitchen that sounds great all right my recommendation. This week is not as fun as analog notebooks or cooking although if you listen to this podcast episode so you might want to go buy a bunch of paper notebooks and never used digital communications again. This week I really enjoyed the recode. Decode interview with Edward Snowden. Then I know I've recommended recode interviews before By my former colleague Swisher. She is per usual Firecracker of an interviewer viewer and this one. It's a long one. Edward SNOWDEN has a new book out called Permanent Record. We've also written about this book in a wired so please go to wire dot com. If you're looking for more information about that and of course put in the show notes but one of the reasons why I really liked this conversation with care. Swisher is because you know care has a certain interview style she tends to really want to dominate the conversation. She sometimes interrupts her guests and ask them the question to same question two or three times as part of a follow up style because she really wants the straight answer. She doesn't want her guests to talk around her or give. The you know the typical prepared remarks that they might have before going into a big interview you and she really pushes Edward Snowden on some of his motivations behind why he decided you know back in two thousand thirteen in to share information about a global surveillance scheme with journalists and make this classified information public knowledge. And I'm sure some of if you remember this from back in two thousand thirteen and Edward Snowden is now living in exile Moscow as a result of all of this And in his book is not a as autobiographical tale of this aspire herald really really pushes in on some of the I think some of the more important questions and he's also he's really Quite an eloquent speaker and you kind of just like wind him mobbing goes and at some point. She realizes that she should just let them go. You know so. He's he just goes off. This is why were journalists and people don't understand that this because Talking heads on the news and the allegations that are like third hand the number of documents that I have revealed the number of documents yes I published disclosed is zero What I did was I gathered evidence a corpus of material that I believe showed unlawful unconstitutional or unethical behavior on the part of the United States? Intelligence community I then provided this to journalists. I found the whole fascinating I really did. So people have very strong opinions on Edward Snowden and that's one of the things they address in the podcast whether or not. He's a trader a hero whistle blower. What is the best way to describe him and It's it's worth listening to no matter. Which side of the fence you fall on? That sounds awesome. Yeah well thanks everybody for their great recommendations and thanks to our listeners for joining us again this week if you enjoy this episode or if you have any other feedback at all leave us a review on apple podcasts or your podcast APP of choice. Really we love to hear

facebook Google fitbit United States instagram apple Mediterranean Cookbook America writer Mike smartwater senior editor Edward Snowden wired Mark Zuckerberg Michael Calorie P. H.
Your DNA Belongs on the Blockchain

Gadget Lab Podcast

37:44 min | 1 year ago

Your DNA Belongs on the Blockchain

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus. Ph to the wired world. It's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water water. That's pretty smart. Hi Everyone I'm Michael Laurie. I'm an editor here at wired erred and you're listening to the gadget lab the podcast or we talk about the latest gadgets apps and services that you need to know about and how the impact our lives. I am joined by my co hosts wired appeared senior writer Lauren Good Hello and senior associate editor Arielle parties hello and later in the show. We're going to have our colleague Meghan Multi Neon. She's a writer on our science desk and we are going to talk about gene sequencing specifically. She's going to tell us about how some people are going to extremes to protect their personal identities. He's when getting their DNA sequenced using tools like proton male VPN's and crypto wallets but the best part is Megan's going to tell us how we can use these tools for privacy privacy even if you aren't getting your DNA decoded but first we actually do have a lot of gadget news on the gadget lab this week because it is texts silly season after all and we've emerged from the piles and piles of hardware in our desks just to tell you about the news this week so let's get to it all right. I'll go first. you may remember at the tail end end of last year's silly season. It was also a after a bonanza of privacy scandals for facebook. The company decided for some reason that it would be a good idea to pitch users on putting a facebook controlled video camera in their homes. The facebook portal came out at the end of two thousand eighteen and although the video tat devices were roundly panned by the press facebook did sell enough of them to warrant a sequel or at least we believe they sold enough of them to warrant a sequel either way. There is a sequel this week. We got to see the new facebook. PORTA lineup like last year there two portals screens a big one and a small one. They both have microphones and video cameras have some cool. Ai Capabilities bility's but now there's also a third portal a device with a camera and a microphone that sits on top of your TV and turns your big screen into a massive video chat window all the new portals. Let you chat with your what's at friends in addition to your facebook friends this year and they have Alexa capability just like last ones while the idea of letting facebook book plant a camera and microphone. Your home may seem like a hard. No for most people myself included. These devices do have an audience so What does the audience our colleague. Tom Simon Eight wrote about this and wrote that facebook has something like less than four percent of the total smart smart speaker market in we were discussing this and saying wow that much because we don't know anybody in the wild who has one of these his facebook. Portal's part of me thinks that facebook is using the portal as a means of dog feuding other new features at they're eventually going to roll out to different platforms. Maybe that's something that's going to roll out and the mobile for me. It's something that's even more futuristic like smart glasses but Andrew Bosworth who's one of the executives who runs this team and who sometimes tweets things and and shares a little bit about what they're working on has indicated in recent days that you know the specifically created this facebook research unit to work on cool things for ar and VR VR and portal happens to be a part of that so I think that could be using it as grounds for testing out things and seeing what the reaction is then. I also have this other theory. That is completely completely unfounded that is just like facebook must know that children and teenagers right now are like what's facebook like they're not using it or audit so maybe the portals just a way to stick it in your home mm-hmm and have like a very obvious product on the counter that teaches your child but facebook is stuff built in especially for kids like it has an air filter that you know puts like bunny ears on people when they're talking to you. There's also a story time feature. I think that's what the features called where you like our our as as the person who is video chatting you are inside of sort of a a a are Diorama in story plays out around your face as you're reading it very bizarre but also you know the audience I think is like families that live across the world from one another and grandma and GRANDPA. I want to see the baby so this is something that I think facebook is sort of indoctrinating young children into their world with yea. Yes Christian mark for them all right. Let's move onto devices that billions of people use shall we all right earlier this week all the major publications including our own ran reviews of the new iphone eleven an iphone eleven pros which we talked all about on last week's show but if you're not planning on spending a thousand dollars or more in fancy new phone then you'll be happy to hear that thirteen dropped yesterday this is the big operating system update to iphones that should make even your aging aging phones feel newer and faster it runs on iphones six s or leader and then an ipad specific version will come early next week however kids you might want to wait until next week to install this new software on your phone because it's been a really really bug season for iphone software apple usually puts out. Beta virgins right after WW DC June which is a good opportunity for APP developers and people who just like living on the edge to play around with the software and then they sent in their feedback but in this case the early bugs were actually kind of bad some developers noted an I cloud bug that wiped data or entire projects from their accounts members of the low vision and blind community noted problems with the virtual Braille keyboard and the new dark mode. I personally experienced some bugs or just a unfriendly. Ui changes they were not nearly as critical as the ones that I just mentioned now apple says some of these will be fixed with thirteen point one which comes out on Tuesday the twenty fourth note this is they bump this up that was supposed to be the thirtieth now. It's happening on the twenty fourth so it's probably a good idea just to wait untold then until Tuesday the twenty fourth thirteen point one to upgrade your old iphone. are either of you going to update today will not after what you have said. Laurie in is it typical for new software to have this many bugs or is there something anomalous with IOS thirteen. It is not unusual for new software to have bugs and particularly when it's in the Beta phase keep in mind that all of the releases is and they were nearly two dozen releases between June and now were still Beta. They were developer Baiter. There were public Beta in. That's the point right. Let's work out all the bugs in the past apple's had issues where Beta versions of their software have completely bricked iphones that happened to me a long time ago so you know this is not totally unheard of but the developers helpers I spoke to you said that this was a particularly Harrowing Software Rollout and even you know Thursday morning. When the release was was official like thirteen out everybody go download it apple just suddenly changed the date for thirteen point one? Tuesday instead of the thirtieth and people were like why it like it just seems like it's been a little bit scattered and this year and some of the bugs have been particularly bad like the cloud was by all accounts announce not great dark mode works well dark mode works for me but I'm not a member of the lluhvision community and cannot even begin begin to understand what folks in that community may be experiencing if they're having trouble seeing their phone so that's another thing to keep in mind too that the promise of apple products is that they're supposed to be you know it just works. They have this amazing ease of use but when they render some of your products nearly unusable then they're not upholding that promise so so with that in mind. Shall we move on sure. I have some news from Amazon this week. Amazon the everything store made a move to protect customer privacy when it began cracking down on some of the third party apps used by Amazon sellers so zoom out just a little bit Amazon's marketplace includes products that are sold by Amazon but also includes lots of products that are sold by other sellers from around the world so sometimes you're buying something from the company Indian Seattle. Sometimes you're buying something from a company in the Philippines that is selling on Amazon so these sellers us all kinds of tools to manage their businesses and there's there's this cottage industry of specialized business apps that sprung up around it so those apps you things like integrate with Amazon to bring in customer names e Mail L. Delivery addresses and so on and make it easier for these sellers. Do things like popular shipping labels or whatever else you need to do to run your business now. The problem is as some of these third party. APPS are in violation of Amazon's privacy policies and as of this week it's starting to crack down on those APPs in particular the ones ones that are using Amazon's customer information for purposes other than just tax and shipping so you're not allowed to use that information to for example advertised as someone which is something that a a lot of sellers find really valuable and have asked developers of these third party apps to give them the opportunity to do an Amazon saying no way you'll be booted from from Amazon's APP marketplace so that's been really frustrating to some Amazon sellers our colleague Louis Matt Ceca's had a story on this but the flipside website is that it's pretty nice for customers. If you're a person who's buying lots of things on Amazon it's great that the company is taking some steps to try and protect your information. it's also a nice move for the company in a year when privacy seems to be the big buzzword and it also shows how on his sort of throwing its weight around as it tries to take some control all of this super messy complicated ecosystem that it's built with this marketplace that includes so many people around the world yeah you know and there's sort of been this rotter move among Amazon to clean up some of the the garbage on its network like they were they introduced a thing called the top brand badge earlier this year to help consumers find the products that were the ones that they were actually looking for instead of the ones that were being put in front of them by people who were we're trying to game the search engine. Algorithms also this week. They announced that they're going to buy a bunch of electric delivery vehicles polls which was a response to pressure from the people who work at Amazon because the company has basically done nothing to address concerns that it's harming the environment so you know it seems like hygiene is on the mind just as much as privacy here right yeah absolutely okay well. Let's take a quick break and when we come back we'll have Megan Mulvaney on the show to tell us all about the latest things happening in the world of DNA. Sequencing support for this podcast comes from smart water. Smart water is for the curious fresh thinkers the ones who asked questions and are never satisfied with the norm the ones who believe in doing things the smart way even if it's as simple as drinking water. That's why smart water is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline an the antioxidant designed to enhance the every day new smart water alkaline has nine plus. Ph for hydration after working up a sweat and new smart water antioxidant antioxidant has added Selenium both with the smart water taste you know and love hydration with your body and mind in mind smart water. That's that's pretty smart. Megan Mulvaney is a staff writer wired covering the intersection of Science Health and Technology and Megan is here in the studio today to tell us whether it's possible to decouple our genomic data from personal information stuff that tech companies and bowed companies are more than happy to scoop up from us if you've ever wanted to get your DNA sequenced but have hesitated because of privacy concerns. You're going to want to hear this Megan. Thanks for joining us on the Gadget Lab. Thanks for having me I WANNA kick off with a basic question. If you can tell us I what it means exactly to get your DNA or your genome sequenced what kinds kinds of informations can be learned from this and from the process sure so a genome refers to the entirety of your DNA so that's about six six billion base pairs and base pair is just the series of letters so there's you think about your DNA Genyk Code. There's four letters. ATC G. and in a few unravel all of your DNA and you were to pull it out into a single string. It'd be six billion welby three billion letters long and then it's paired so six billion total total so getting your genome sequences having that entire genetic code unraveled and part of that process is comparing gene that code to a bunch of other people's. DNA to their genomes and telling using that to tell you what's going on with your DNA so do you have a variation nation of a gene that makes you more at higher risk for heart disease or is your gramma from Estonia those sorts of things so that's definitely needs to be to be fully sequenced this. The first human genome sequence of course was made in two thousand. It was a big deal. It costs a lot of money it has become commercially available for clinics and in hospitals and doctors in the intervening decades but it's really only become available at a price point that con consumers can actually afford on the last five years and what's the difference France between that consumer. DNA sequencing and the more traditional clinical or medical sequencing. It's really a matter of accuracy so what you can afford as a consumer is something that's called a low pass genome and basically what it means is the assembled oh six billion letters and they just do a quick check to make sure that they're actually write about lining up all those letters and making sure they're the right ones. It's kind of like using a spell checker and only use it like one time so you're still going to have a bunch of mistakes. A clinical grades sequence is where you spill trigger on it like thirty times at least thirty two fifty that's called thirty x or fifty x coverage that basically gives you a a high confidence that the a sequence that is associated with your genome is actually within their how much does it cost for consumer to get this done and how many people have taken advantage of this yes so consumer sequence a like a low with low pass sequences available right now around a thousand dollars our best estimates is that close to for a million people have all over the world have had their genome sequence but we think that that has that include people who've had it done quickly so they're part of like a research study if if a hospital wanted to know what was in your genome sequenced so we we think it's we think it's somewhere between five hundred thousand and a million people have taken advantage. Louis set seems like a relatively small sample of people to compare your data against to see what you're prone to know or the other data sets that are being referenced here yeah so there's there's a bunch of projects around the world to collect people genome so there's a big one in the UK. There's Big One China. There's one called the found genomes projects here of based in the US although sampling all over the world so there are there kind of Lake Medical Research efforts that are collecting gene genomes that are serving. That's kind of that reference database to then comp- for companies to compare your genomes. If you go to a company thousand dollars they're able to compare to those public data sets so they have more data to work with but it is a small fraction compared to the number of people who've done things like twenty three and me and ancestry we think that's about twenty six million people who've done that that was an estimate that came out last year on. Mit tekere view maybe closer to thirty million by now and that's a slightly different technology that instead of looking at all six billion pairs of your whole genome it takes a little snapshots of about a hundred thousand places and it says you know these are genes where we think we know something interesting is happening and we'll go in and take a little picture sure of that will give you that information what what sorts of things they targeting with those couple of hundred thousand two hundred thousand one hundred thousand so it's exactly what you get back in and at twenty three and Mirren Ancestry result so with ancestry it might be a particular piece of DNA that we can trace back to a little corner of Ireland Oakland because a lot of people only slept with people from that area for a long time and so those genes are highly conserved or it might be genes that we know are affiliated or associated with certain disease so you might have something like there's a gene called APO four and if you have a certain variant of this you have a higher likelihood of having Alzheimer's so these are things that scientists have figured out by studying people have Alzheimer's and people who are healthy comparing them seen wish gene show up in the folks with Alzheimer's and so those are the sorts of things that can get returned earned in those kinds of tests so you reference data sets existing all over the world but in terms of who can actually pay for this thousand testing get it done. Is it very by market because it's something thing that folks outside of the US can do it happening all over as far as I know the biggest market outside of the US is China but there's not a big commercial market there in era consumer market so there are a lot of sequencing efforts by scientists in hospitals that are supported by the Chinese government. There's a lot there's a big push to do genetic sequence seen as part of just regular healthcare but there aren't a lot of thrown around a lot of places outside the US where consumers are really like hankering to have their DNA their full genome sequence like it is right now in the US there are only only a few companies that offer it and because of full genome sequences thousand dollar investment as opposed to one hundred dollars something like a twenty three Emeka there aren't a lot of people who are right now seen the value in getting a genome verses doing kind of more snapshot version so there's a chicken and egg problem with genomics right now where you need really large data sets to be able to suss out what's going on at all six billion spots in the genome right now how we the things that we already know you can test for with a kit like twenty three and me. The advantage of doing a genome is that as has scientists do more and more research get more and more. DNA and figure out kind of decode more and more of the genome you'll be able to understand that without having to go back and retest but right now the value to consumers is about the same so one of the things that always comes up when you talk about consumer. DNA sequencing is privacy and I. I think it's fair to say that one of the reasons not everybody gets. These done is concerned about privacy right. You're you're learning a lot of cool information but in exchange you're giving up a data that goes far beyond. Just you know your email address. it's it's information about your body. you recently wrote for wired about a startup. That's trying to think about about this differently and I want to get into that but I like how valid are those concerns from consumers who say I don't want to spit in a two and send it to twenty three and me because I don't know what's going to happen to that data. I think the concerns are valid at this particular moment in part because of the way of genetic information is regulated in this country. They're the laws that have been put out in particular law called Gina protect genetic information but only from certain entities so your employer can't discriminate against you because you have a genetic predisposition to diabetes but it doesn't prevent event. You doesn't prevent like a life insurance companies from discriminating against you. It doesn't prevent a school from saying we're GONNA genetically test everyone to see if folks have autism. Chisolm and we don't want them in this class like there are not legal protections so in that sense I think there there are some valid concerns. The other thing that has happened is there have been very a high profile examples of data being used in ways that people didn't intend for it to be used so in law enforcement in the last year and a half. We've seen that it these. There have been a number of public databases where people have gotten their. DNA tested through twenty three year ancestry. They've uploaded it to a public database because they're trying to find relatives. They're trying to find out like who did my grandma. You know sleep with in Sweden so that I have the current you know make up that I have and police have been able to access those databases to take. DNA they find at crime scenes and basically re identify anonymous DNA ED bouchette linking it back through relative right because you share your DNA with almost everyone who you're related to to some degree so between that and then also the revelation the companies like twenty three and may have struck really lucrative deals with pharmaceutical companies and so data is being shared also outside of the company itself. all of those things are starting to bring to the forefront the idea that even though these companies say you own your DNA and you can get clogged back at any time. That's really not true in practice and it's actually much much harder once you've actually had it. Gino type or sequenced and it's living on someone else's server server. They're very you have very little control over where it goes next so a startup called. Nebula is trying to address some of these concerns using blockchain gene and we're GONNA talk about that right after a quick break passwords are the worst. I everyone tells you that you need need to use the same password everywhere and then you have to remember all of the different passwords use across all of your apps and websites which of course means you're going to forget the correct one and get blocked out of your email a counter facebook account or whatever and then you have to reset it. It's a total nightmare. So what you need is a way to keep your digital secrets organized. Let me tell you about Dash. Lane are fast company called Dash Lane the Ferrari of password managers Dash Lang auto fills your log information everywhere across your phone computer under and tablet on any operating system no more writing down or guessing your passwords. Dash Line just keeps track of everything for you. Dash Line is secure. It's easy. It's password word magic. I use it across to android phones an IPAD and two I max and it always works perfectly over eleven million people use Dash Lane including me. Dash Lane has an exclusive offer for our listeners a free thirty day trial of Dash Lane premium. Just go to dash lane dot com slash gadget so if you have more than one password eh you should dash lane is a no brainer go to Dash Lane Dot Com and start your free thirty day trial right now fix your password problem once and for all and support this podcast by going going to dash line dot com slash gadget so Meghan this startup Nebula has some ideas for ways to make your DNA more more anonymous to make the information. You're uploading more secure. Some of that has to do with blockchain sort of explain to us what the idea is here. sheriffs of the blockchain blockchain element actually has to do with giving you control over who sees your data so right now if you go to someone like twenty three and me and the Tester. DNA and they have some of your DNA file on you on their server and they wanted to identify it and aggregate with a bunch of other customers DNA and sell it to a Pharma company or sell access to a Pharma Company to be able to use that you don't have any control over who which Pharma Company or Advertising Advertising Company say they sell to so the difference here with blockchain is that the the the consumer is making a decision and they're saying either. I want no one else to see my my daddy besides me. I want Nebula to share my data with anyone whoever wants it or a kind of an in between option and anyone who wants to look at my genome I want to be able to have a kind of a one off instance be able to say yes or no and that decision is stored in this public ledger and so if anyone wants to ask Kabila to access your data and to pull it into like a big pool of de identified genomes basically a bunch of people have to all agree that that you can see that you have made that decision so it's kind of a way to use this trust. LA- system to ensure that whatever you decide for your data is the thing that happens so that's kind blockchain element what they're introducing. Today is what they're calling anonymous sequencing and really what it is is. They're just saying our platform are blockchain. Platform is open for her business with anyone who wants to use a cryptocurrency or other kinds of payment that aren't necessarily tied to your name and address an email address so like a pre loaded credit it card or something else that doesn't have personal identifying information on it so in addition to block chain and crypto currencies you also mentioned in your story that some folks are going to great lengths to use things like Proton male which is highly encrypted mail service or even using pin's before they log onto the Internet to process these he's transactions. I mean juicy this really being a thing that people should be doing when they go to pay for one of these deny sequencing services. I think increasingly creasing leaders and I think increasingly like wired readers our folks who are doing that so what I think Nebula trying to do here is signal to people who are we are worried about privacy and taking these kinds of measures anyways an in their life and saying if the thing that was stopping you from getting your genome sequenced was concerns over these privacy like we get it and we're here for you and we are willing and ready to accept anonymous payments and you can you can give us a Po box and we will send you a kit. There and we don't need to know where you live and we don't need to know what your real you know email addresses to set up an account here not you're really logic but a purse a personal email address that's identified with your associated with your name and what they're basically saying is like you don't have to be buying a DNA Ganay test to be taking these kinds of measures. there are good reasons why you wouldn't necessarily want all of everything you buy in the Internet to be sent to your home ars until you're or have the receipt for that sent your personal email address and so I think what they're saying is privacy as the word of the moment it's only going to become more so and and they're anticipating that kind of the next wave of consumers who are interested in genome sequencing as the costs continue to to fall if if the thing that is preventing them that is the stumbling block is privacy like it doesn't have to be Meghan. Are there other companies or firms that are taking a similar approach to nebulous and also we should mention that in your story you write that one of Nebulous co-founders was associated with Jeffrey Epstein convicted and now deceased sex offender and so I'm just curious for folks who might be interested in other options either because of that or because they just want to know if others are taking a more serious approach to privacy there are definitely a kind of a host of other other companies that are using the blockchain to solve some of these privacy issues and as far as they know none of none of the other ones are saying that they're using there have like an anonymous service at this point but it's also worth mentioning that like at this present moment the idea of anonymous sequencing whether there's from nebula reform one of these other blockchain based startups is a little bit gimmicky just because of the fact that DNA itself is a personally identifying in substance right like I have a DNA this completely unique from yours. That's completely unique from areas as completely unique from Mike so that that's not the case under. US law is not seen as a it's not regulated as personally identifier as in the same way that like a name or an email addresses but just by laws of biology it is so there's kind of a next step to get to like actual secure anonymous genome sequencing that Nebula hinted out is coming next year is not currently available today. If you go and sign up for it so I would actually say if like you are really concerned about about security and privacy. I might wait until they come out with that. Next iteration well Megan. Thanks for coming on the show and breaking down genome on the blockchain blockchain for us. No problems greatly appreciated. We'll have you back again soon. Thank mm-hmm when you use zoom. Everyday is a little better zoom video communications with the Web's best reviewed videoconference service is used by millions to meet one on one or hundreds at the time zoom videoconferencing. Lets you connect face to face with anyone across town or around the world with flawless video clear audio an instant sharing of files video or anything and you can connect through any device desktop laptop tablet smartphone or your conference room system zoom videoconferencing zoom rooms zoom video webinars zoom phone put state of the art tech at your fingertips and let you do business at the speed of zoom look if you're not using zoom video communications the the only question. I have is why not make it super easy for you visit Zoom Online and set up a free account today. Try the most affordable and most reliable video communication solution on the market meet happy with Zoom Megan. You're still here. Are you going to join us for recommendations. I can give shot Nice Lauren. What is your recommendation. Listen my recommendation. This week comes with a caveat that it is disturbing content in fact there is of your discretion advisory when you start to watch it but it's a series called unbelievable on net flicks six. It is a mini series that is based on a true story about a series of rapes and the unfolding investigation that happened afterwards and so there seems violent sexual assaults and I imagine for some people would be very difficult to watch but it's really well done and it's an important important story I think about the ways in which assault victims are treated in the aftermath of these events and you really see the dichotomy in how some of the characters which are based on real people react to some of the victims so there are some detectives who are understanding and ask the right questions and a really thorough investigations and there are others who are more dismissive of the victims and even some cases convincing them that they are lying and it's really like I said worth watching if you can if you can and stomach the subject matter so to piggyback on that if you're into dark stuff I my recommendation this week would be for a podcast called in the dark work which is a true crime kind of investigative series. There are two seasons now. I just finished the first one it was about the most famous crime to ever happen in the state of Minnesota which was a child abduction case in the polls you search for Jacob was one of the largest searches for any missing person in the history history of the United States extraordinary sweep for clues more than one hundred national guardsmen scoured the countryside they were joined by this has been the largest manhunt in the history of Minnesota and it is not going to stop the reporters are just incredibly talented so tenacious is and they go through thousands of pages of case reports and interview hundreds of people to go back and see exactly how this county sheriff's office kind of messed up this investigation and why it took so long to figure out who did it just finished it. It blew my mind. I just started season to where she moved to Mississippi for the last year to investigate a case where a man Dan has been tried and convicted six times for the quadruple homicide. He still currently on death row and it is it's creepy. It's really excellent well. I guess I should provide some level t to all of this his crime terrible stuff that happens in the world my my podcast that I'm recommending it is a podcast is delightful. It is called everything is alive and it's from Radio Topa and PR ex. It's been around for a little while. I think the second season just finished I just got into it a couple of weeks ago when a friend recommended it to me but I've listened to six or seven episodes and it's just amazing. They're half an hour each. It's an unscripted interview show where the host interviews an inanimate object so the person on the other end of the conversation is an actor participating in an unscripted interview about what their life is like as an inanimate object so one episode is about a can of like storebrand Cola Woah. My name is Louis and I am can of Gota Cola. That's storebrand Goto Gio too so it's similar to Coca Cola similar Miller people call it a knockoff. I've been called the best of the worst you know if you wanted to get my honest opinion. I believe in a blind taste test. Your average person wouldn't wouldn't be able to tell the difference between me and I can't regular Coca Cola but yeah bottom shelf. we can describe it comfortably as bottom shelf. I'm at peace with that literally early on the most of the time you okay another episode is an interview with a pillow. another episode is an interview with with a lamp post. It's really just amazing because I mean it sounds deeply weird and it is deeply weird but it's also entertaining because these people are really good improv actors us and they basically give a personality and like a whole secret unseen life to these everyday objects and it's filled with emotion then it's also filled with facts like they they ask the interviewer asks questions that get the person talking about like some trivia about them like the the Chola one is really good because the guy talks about the the history of of Cola and like its marketing in the US us and you go down this weird road into the early nineteen hundreds. It's very bizarre. and half an hour per episode no duds so far which is kind kind of amazing. I think they did a really good job. Picking people so everything is alive. Definitely subscribe sounds amazing sounds like something that anyone who watched the brave little toaster obsessively as a kid would be amazing. I would like to recommend a book is is called. Maybe you should talk to someone by Lori. GOTTLIEB this came out a couple months ago maybe longer and spend sort of sitting on my nightstand for a long time and I finally finally got around to reading it. It is a sort of memoir of therapist and it talks about her experiences with patients but also her experience experience in therapy going through her own life crisis. If you've ever been curious about what's going on on the other side of the couch I highly recommend it. It's funny. It's poignant Indian. It's really insightful and just quite well written as well. It's super easy read and something unlike any other book. I've hi friend before isn't sort of the the psychology and psychiatry world undergoing a bit of a renaissance right. Now there are other. The pieces of media about this right now to there is a show on showtime. There's esther peril. Oh my God esther perils podcast which is not new this is uh-huh this is ongoing but not new is incredible I I would also recommend that if you're interested in understanding what's going on in a therapist said her podcast which is called. Where should we begin. Gives you little clips from her real couples therapy sessions juicy all right. We'll great recommendations. Everybody Megan thanks again for joining us this week and for sticking around for the last segment we appreciate it. Thanks for having me how can people find you on the twitter find me on the twitter at Meghan multi any all one word and me John Multi and lauren you are lauren good with an ESPN are at part Tehrik. I am at snack fight and of course you can talk to all of us at Gadget lab which is the main hotline for our section of wired and if few enjoyed the show. Please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback and of course it also helps other people who might enjoy the show find the show and we will be back next week

facebook Megan Mulvaney US Amazon Gadget lab apple Louis Matt Ceca Michael Laurie Lauren Good Meghan Multi Neon Meghan writer smartwater Alexa bility editor
Making Surfing More Sustainable

Gadget Lab Podcast

56:19 min | 1 year ago

Making Surfing More Sustainable

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus P H to the wired world. It's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water. That's pretty smart. Hi everyone. I'm Michael Laurie. I'm an editor wired. And you are listening to the gadget lab, the podcast where we talk about the latest gadgets apps and services that you need to know about, and how they impact our lives. I am joined as always by co host Lauren. Good senior writer, wired, Hello, and co host, Arielle, partis, senior associate editor at wired Hello leader on in the show. You're going to hear an interview Mike and I tape with Mark Price the CEO of fire wire surfboards we talked to Mark about the movement, afoot in the surfing industry to come up with cleaner more environmentally responsible methods for making surfboards weirdly, making a surfboard involves a lot of chemicals and materials that end up polluting the ocean. And fire wire is just one of the companies that is working to change that. And unfortunately, I was not there for the interview with Mark Price. I wish I could say it was because I was out surfing, but I was sick. I still am a little bit sick but it's a great interview and. I'm excited that everybody gets to hear it. And I think Mike, an Oriole are excited that I have not been talking much. Well, let's have arial start with the news, then sure, first of all, is there an echo in here? Do you hear that now? No. That's just Amazon's latest device echo show five so proud that you took over bad pun might talking absence. Yes. Amazon has a new echo show. This is the Alexa device that comes with microphone and a camera and a screen and Amazon has updated it with some built in privacy features. So, for example, there is now a physical shutter to cover the camera. And there's a way to ask Alexa to delete everything. It's recorded recently, just say Alexa, delete, everything I said today, and supposedly poof, it disappears from the device. Now, obviously, that's like a pretty small step towards fixing some of the broader privacy concerns with these devices. You can't ask Alexa digitally everything is recorded ever, you can't. Ask it to delete everything it's recorded that week or month or year and all of these privacy features are still opt in. But it does show that Amazon is catching onto the consumers concerns around privacy, especially when it comes to putting one of these all seeing all hearing all knowing devices in your home, mostly knowing, mostly knowing Lauren, you've, you've tried out the echo shows before, do you think some of these built in privacy features will persuade people who've been like squeamish about buying them in the past to give them a try? I have used to of the echo shows, both previous generations and I will say I've liked it. I had the first one on my kitchen countertop for a long time, and then I had a loner from the company when I was reviewing the second one I'm trying to think if I actually reviewed are just wrote about it. I'm gonna just written about it on wire dot com and I like them because of the display their larger devices this one is five point five inches in terms of the display diagonal the other ones are ten. And so when. You're like let's say you're cooking in the kitchen and you go to set a timer. You then have a visual representation of the timer. Instead of just wondering how much time you have left, or if you're playing a song, you have a visual representation of the name of the song and the playlist in the play controls and everything else. So I have found to be really useful. But then last year when that story emerged in the news about the Portland women who reported that Alexa, had gone rogue and recorded in sent a conversation, a private conversation that she'd been having it home. It freaked me out enough to dismantle the shop. I took it down off the counter I haven't used it since do have other eco devices in the home, though, or I should say other Alexa devices in the home. I do think that consumers at this point have a little bit of concern not just about those one off incidents. That's everybody's worst nightmare of Alexa, recording a private conversation. Sending it somebody in your contact list, just this general idea that there's so much passively right now around how much of our data's being collected how the companies are using it and where they're sharing it. And so to your. Point RL this whole idea that, okay? There's a camera shutter now and you can just slide it shut, or you might be able to say Alexa, delete everything that I said today, I'm sorry. If I just triggered all of your Alexa, devices in our home. If you're listening to this, that's still largely puts the onus on the consumer the burden of responsibility is still in the consumer to do all these things, and to me it just seems like Amazon is perhaps slipping some privacy features into product announcements like this, because there are senators and consumer privacy advocate groups that are really questioning right now. What Amazon is doing with its data. That's my take that was a lot of talking. And they'll go silent now for the next two days. I. I mean, I think it's interesting because so much of this, like, voice control. AI assistant stuff is. Because there's not a visual representation of what's happening on most of the device is like a lot of people have echoes. They don't necessarily have echo shows or what's the little one echo dots? The dot. So they don't really have that interface that they can just like check button, and click, click clear history. I mean they can do that technically but it's not part of the experience. Right. The experience is you talked to the thing that thing talks back to you. And you don't really have any control over it. So much of what's happening now with voice activated competing systems, and like ambient computing, all of that stuff that we're used to where we used to make all the decisions is just removed or hidden hidden away. So that's obviously not great. So I'm glad that they're adjusting to that one of the things that actually you Mike you asked, and Amazon still has not really answered. I don't think is, whether the meta data is still collected from your queries, right? Which is a really good question to ask because they may race the query itself. But then the existence or the fact that you were still interacting with the speaker in some way is still something that is. Is that is under question? Yeah. Like, maybe to make a phone call or maybe acid to play something on Spotify. Or maybe I just asked it, you know, sixteen questions, and they still know that I sixteen questions, even though the content with questions is gone. Right. They delete of waste recording voice. They delete the last voice recording from the day. And then they deleted the corresponding, text transcript associated with that account from all the main Alexa, systems and subsystems, but Yama data's just an unanswered question. Shall we move on? Yes, we have more privacy. Good news. This this one comes from Google, as you may know, chrome extensions have posed a security problem for Google in recent years. The company has been busy policing extensions for its chrome, web, browser that were found to be collecting, more user data than they should or worse, hijack meek. Hijacking people's computers and secretly, installing mal wear as Wired's lily. Hey Newman reports this week, Google will soon start limiting how much user data extensions can request and only allow extensions to gather the minimum amount of user data necessary for them to perform as described these new rules are going to take effect this fall. And I mean they're announcing it now. So that developers have a time to catch up before the rules go into full effect. And this is all part of a larger security audit around customer safety safety, that Google is calling project Strobe is weird name for it. Other targets audit such as g mail, and Google Drive or also. Being their security. Tightened this year as well. Now, I don't know if you particularly have had any problems with Google extensions going rogue, but there are one hundred eighty thousand of them available in the Google Chrome store and something like three quarters of people who use chrome use extensions of some sort allow so you can imagine that, like if there are thirty extensions out there, which there absolutely are, there are literally tens of thousands of them. Right. And most most people if they're anything like me will download an extension. Maybe use it for a little while. Forget about it. And then forget what kinds of permissions they've granted to that extension, which in my case are usually like full permission. So whatever you wanna do. That's fine. In exchange for me using your extension for about one week and then forgetting about, and honestly, you just comes up like a is a modal comes up with a thing that has a bunch of words on it, and you all, you know what your brain tells us that if you click that blue button, you get to go back to what you were doing before you were so rudely interrupted. So you just click the button and you don't read it, right? The literally be asking for anything right? I think I think this is great that Google is doing this, this kind of mirrors some of what apple has done in recent years around its at permissions, but basically taking some of the onus off of consumers to limit what they're extensions can see can access can stall on their own and taking sort of a company stand in, in sort of determining what third parties can do. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the third party restrictions on Google Drive because I think one of the most insidious invasions that I've experienced in the last year has been Google Drive spam. What does it look like what happens so you go into Google Drive and normally you just see your drive? And then there's the shared with me section. So you click on shared with me, and you see everything that you have access to that other people have granted, you access to will what I get is. I get documents with names that read like porno spam. That just show up. Sounds like a likely squeezed slight. Yeah. So, like I go into shared with me, and I see, like my tax stuff, like you know, healthcare documents that have shared with people in my family. And then in between there there's like, you know, invitations toward adult act invitations to adult activities. People begging me to do certain things to certain parts of their bodies all kinds of shit that you'd expect to see in your spam folder, but it's right there in my Google Drive, and that's because of an extension. He's no. That's just because people have my Email address out there in the world and instead of sending me an Email with some sort of malware inside of it. They sent me a Google doc with some sort of malware inside of it, and they just shared with me. And I'm sure thousands of other people to allow to go check my share, and I feel like that feels, you're experiencing what? It's like a woman on the internet. Yes. Yes. To both of you, it is. So I think it's something that people with people who already get a lot of spam, because I already get a lot of spam have to deal with. I mean, it's just one of the things you want me to see you want me to show you nervous about I'm actually let's do a live. Check of our Google drives. I'm succumb. I just I, maybe I just haven't clicked on the shared with me in a long time. There's one right there, right at the top of boy, top hoping, we'll get fired for. Let's let us just state right now that Mike is not going to be fired for showing the what he just showed to us. It's, it's their people one one showed up early this week in one show to earlier this month. And really all you can do. Highlight Mark them for deletion. So I'm waiting for Google to fix third party spam with access. If I have one hold on. Really, I don't know. No, I don't know. It's from two thousand sixteen. I'm afraid to open it. Don't open it whatever you do do not. Okay. Maybe it is one. I don't know though it may have just been somebody who was a freelancer, who are working with and doesn't have a name, I recognize and then I'll I don't know. Can we just say to kudos to Google for coming up with project names that always sound so serious like project roll like that is just I mean, really they come up with these names. They all sound like they're from there. They sound like they're from movies in the nineties. When people thought they were making movies about what computer hacking was like like Dragonfly and maven like I'm pretty sure that Angelina Jolie, and generally Miller starting those movies. You know a guy with sunglasses on using typing. That's right. That's right. That's Strobe projects Strobe boy. Well, for those of you not keeping close track of the calendar, it is almost apple WW, DC time, it is one of the biggest most important software developer conferences of year. It kicks off Monday with a keynote, and this is likely to be delivered by apple CEO, Tim cook TM, if he makes it in time after his morning workout, a pretty convinced that works out for like six hours, a day, people get super excited about WDC, sometimes even more so than Apple's hardware events. Even though those are very hyped up because these are all of the new software features that are going to be coming to your iphone your ipad, your MAC. Your apple watch sometime this summer in the coming months in the fall, and the best part is their free. So it's a way to get a nice refresh on your expensive apple hardware, without paying for thing on some of the top rumors that we're hearing so far this year, an I o s which is likely called IS thirteen there might be an iphone dark mode for apps stark moons a thing, right? Now, I think Paris Martineau wrote about a dark mode for us. They're going to be improvements to the main productivity apps like mail from apple, which always feels very quaint because it's like, oh, male, you're still using the hill, there might possibly be improved volume up down experience right now people get kind of annoyed because when you go to do volume up or down on the phone, it just takes up the whole middle of your screen on iphone, and so they might change that they're going to be specific features in Iowa's, thirteen that impact ipod, specifically around things like files and tabs with an apse and things like that. But then, on MAC, I mean, the big news is that this marzipan thing that we've heard about for a couple years now it's probably going to be revealed in a much more official way. This is the project codename for Apple's efforts to build a framework over the past couple years, that allows IOS apps to port really easily to the MAC. So in the past some people have said, all this means the to operating systems. Are merging apple has said, no, no, no, we're not merging the operating systems. At least that's what they've said in the past. This is just all about making apps. More readily and easily available on the MAC and then they're probably gonna be lots of little updates for the nuts. A little business of apple watches. Well, that's what we're expecting, but we're probably going to have a lot more news to talk about next week. Dub dub is always a whirlwind, and especially because it's the sort of end of developer conference season. We get so amped up with all these other Dev conferences, and they went, Apple's finally rolls around it feels like the sort of cherry on top. But we can definitely expect threaded through all of their announcements that they'll be talking a lot about their stance on privacy, which is the sort of buzz word of the year and something that apple and Tim cook, especially likes to sort of brag about since their stance on privacy has always been and will continue to be very different from the other big companies in Silicon Valley. So that's right. Get. Ready for that privacy is a thing you know Google last month. Google CS under CHAI made a point to run run an op Ed in the New York Times on the day of their keynote and said, you know, privacy is not a luxury good. And that was pretty much direct shot at apple, which is always said keeps your data private. It collects little data's possible. It doesn't sell that data. But, you know, you have to pay thousand dollars for a phone. Services costs, a monthly subscription. That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. I mean things like apple music, right? There's no tear you just have to pay. Well, I mean specifically like I cloud, you know, there is there is a free tier, but it's so small as to be inconsequential unusable. Oh, right. And it's like now the options are to ninety nine in nine ninety nine just bull. But anyway, another time apple we're gonna discuss. I mean, it's fine if you care about this sort of thing, that's. It's up. Yes. And are said that. And so it's going to be interesting to see what Apple's take will be this year. What their stance will be on privacy on stage because at this point, all the tech companies are taking jabs at each other in the past, apples, taking jabs, if Facebook, so we'll see. We'll see with with you have to say, but I think it's going to be really exciting and I will be on the ground and Tom Simon. It will be on the ground and our editor in chief, maybe on the ground, and you'll be party. Get your up w. Joe your up w DC keynote bingo cards, can't ready who's going to be what like customer sat number of iphones, sold, how many Android phones are on the latest version of Android versus. How many IOS devices are on the later version of I o s courage, the word courage, courage. Absolutely privacy. The best yet, I'm well-spent one. More thing and he so meal is bro. Now, if any of you listening have special bingo cards that you want to share with us just send them to Mike's Google Drive. Put them in a shared dock and. Yeah. And put some sort of salacious X rated, you know, title on the dock before you share it, because it's Lobstein goals or all gonna need a lot of dangles. Well, let's take a break, and then come back with our interview with fire wire. Surfboard CEO, Mark Price. Support for this podcast comes from smart water. Smart water is for the curious fresh thinkers, the ones who ask questions and are never satisfied with the norm. The ones who believe in doing things the smart way, even if it's as simple as drinking water. That's why smart water is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline an antioxidant designed to enhance the every day new smart water. Alkaline has nine plus ph hydration after working up a sweat, and new smart water antioxidant has added selenium both with the smart water taste, you know, and love hydration with your body and mind in mind, smart water. That's pretty smart. The great irony in the sport of surfing, that the process of making a surfboard puts a great deal strain on the environment, the various chemicals and materials used to symbol boards leashes and wetsuits and polluting the waterways into filing the very beaches that surfers rely on. There are many organizations dedicated to protecting the world's oceans places like the oceanic society in the surfrider foundation. But there's also movement afoot among manufacturers of surfing equipment. It's called sustainable surf, and it's a nonprofit organization that establishes guidelines for producing less toxic surfboards called EKO boards. One company that's made a name for itself building EKO boards is fire wire surfboards, the company's boards have gained -dorsements from surfing pros like Kelly Slater, and rob Machado and just recently fire wire acquired the Longboard maker, carved sports, and we'll be introducing more sustainable Longboard designs later this year today. Our guests on the show is fire wire CEO Mark Price who's joining us from sunny, southern California to talk. About EKO boards sustainability and surfing in general. Mark Price, thanks for joining us on the show today. We would like to have you tell our audience a little bit about what the sustainable surf movement is and what the echo board program is, what exactly isn't EKO board. Well, supports have traditionally being built from pretty toxic materials, and about seven or eight years ago, these Kevin Wildman, and Michael Stewart got together and decided that they wanted to help move the industry towards better practices, and less toxic materials, so they formed an organization called sustainable surf, and they created the EKO board, certification, which is very similar to lead certification in architecture, and it created certain benchmarks that manufacturers could hit, and in doing so, you'll product would be echo board. Certified, I see. And how are some of the ways that fire wire surfboards is making boards that meet that certification? The largest component in Al progression towards EKO board certification was when we switched to bio resins in July of two thousand fourteen and as of that date one hundred percent of production was built using bio, poxy resin, and as a result, we qualified for the lower level of EKO board certification across an entire product line, and what exactly is a via resin and sort of what problem does itself. So the bio raisins use organic, cellulose. Materials as opposed to pure chemistry. And so they're not entirely organic. They definitely have toxic elements to them. But the amount of VOC's that are omitted by bio resin is substantially less than traditional poxy, resin. So it has a much lower carbon footprint than traditional resin, and therefore, you're reducing the overall CO two impact of building surfboard using a bio, resin versus a traditional resin. So to give us some context, what is the environmental impact of producing a surfboard? I'm you mentioned resin and others. Also, foam involved, what sorts of things has the industry, traditionally done that companies like yours are trying to change. So traditional surfboards are built the tune two main ingredients all poly, urethane foam, which is often referred to as p u and poly Esq. Sta resins which are referred to as p. So you'll hear people referred to PUC proposal p you slash P E and those materials incredibly toxic, for example, to clean up, you'll plant on a quick moment when you using polyester resins, you often have to use industrial solvents, like acetone, which are known Costner Jin's, which are absorbed through the skin and through breathing. Whereas what bio resins not only. Do you have a much law lower carbon footprint and much low VOC's, which volatile organic compounds emitted by the risen itself. But for example, in factory, we use citrus cleaners to clean the plot and equipment versus a product like acetone. So it has quite profound implications for the manufacturing environment when you walk into a traditional P, you slash P E factory. If you're not wearing quite sophisticated respirate respiratory equipment, you will get a splitting headache within five or ten minutes. It's whereas you can walk around bio orison being used for quite some time and you'll, you'll pick up a smell, but it doesn't have that toxic or the same toxic environment that polyester resins create do the boards, perform the same. In our view. They do you know this quote, a debate around a poxy, surfboards, and EPS phone, which is expanded polystyrene, which is the other material we use. So instead of the p u polyurethane foam we use EPS, which is expanded polystyrene, foam, which is also less toxic than p you phone and it depends on who you talk to them. And there's a lot of entrenched interests around PUP, it's very cost effective and easy to work with and quite candidly, a lot of pro surface swayed by it. So there is a segment of the market that just believes that no matter what those are the best materials to use when building bullets, we're of the mindset that poxy resins EPS foams on not only less toxic, but when built correctly can certainly equal, if not surpass the performance characteristics of p you slash PE. I wanna ask about another material, which is wool. I know that fire wire introduced a wool surfboard very recently, which sounds, absolutely nuts. Will you tell us a little bit about what that looks like how wolf it's into this sustainable movement, and, and sort of what it does for a surfboard? Yeah. No, that's a great question. And it's quite an interesting story about six or eight years ago, a very talented, New Zealand surfboard builder by the name of Paul Baran, who was also concerned about the environment and wanted to use role materials that were indigenous to New Zealand started experimenting with sheep's wool as a replacement for traditional fiberglass and after many years of trial and error. He perfected, a technique, whereby the she'd wool with minimal processing, so it's not the wool in a sweater or a wool suiting material. It's pretty role fiber. So there's not a lot of energy going into the processing of it to create to create the material to build a surfboard, but it does require some fairly unique manufacturing processes in order to apply it to the exterior of a surfboard. But anyway, basically what we do is, we impregnate the wool with resin and it replaced. The exterior five gloss that you would use on a surfboard with the wool from a sustainability perspective. It's quite a nuanced, nuanced debate in the sense that. The wool itself is obviously biodegradable. It's compulsory vehicle. It's way less toxic than the filaments that go into fiberglass. So there's a real strong sustainability story behind the wolf fiber itself. And in addition to that we only by our wool, from a New Zealand co op that has the highest standards of animal welfare, for example, x number of sheep per hectare. They ordered the fawns every six months to make sure that they are adhering to the co ops practices. And so we're confident that we have the supply chain transparency in the sense that the animals are looked often the entire process is being done correctly. However, when it comes to you, the carbon footprint of wool, it's actually slightly higher than fiberglass because sheep burp and thought and the methane gas that they put out actually which is a form of CO two actually when. When you combine that from a life cycle analysis, which is looking at the material from its very beginnings all the way through the supply chain. It's slightly higher than five gloss. Now we offset that in a couple of ways one would about to launch a program where we're going to be planting mangrove trees in southeast Asia in conjunction with sustainable surf and mangrove trees absorbed. CO two. They also stop the shoreline erosion because they can grow insult waters. Well, it's fresh water, and so we're gonna negate the co two impact of not only the wool but on tire manufacturing operation. And then if you wanna look long term, you know, obviously down the road, and I don't know when this point will come. But at some point most products won't be built with virgin, raw materials, they will require recycled and upcycle materials to build them. And when you look at the recycling of a surfboard wool will come into play because. It's infinitely more recyclable, then Fava gloss and less toxic. When you look at the, the full laugh saga analysis of the material, so you have to look kind of longer term to see it's real full benefit, but in the short run where obviously leveling the playing field with the carbon offsets. You know, one of the things about the surf industry is that you have to get your boards, and you're acquit -ment, whatever you're making sandals clothing into the hands of athletes to help promote the product through sponsorships or through using it, and tournaments showing up in photos with it, what has the response, and the in Ben, like among like the pro athlete community, not only for fire wire, but for sustainable surfboards in general are, are pros opping on them and writing them in tournaments and helping promote them. It's a great question. And you right. You know, at the end of the day, we'll making sporting good equipment and athlete endorsements are critical to create the credibility around performance, when we launched there was a very high profile athlete by the name of Taj burrow. He was consistently placing in the top five in the world rankings and he joined us in late two thousand and six and his winning percentage went up forty percent when he jumped on our equipment versus the previous five years before he joined us, and in the five years that he served for us, and that was a huge endorsement of technology and alternative materials in the whole detoxification of the modern surfboard, and everything that we stood for, and that set us on a path which led to where we ought today. More recently other athletes have got on board. I mean Kelly Slater invested in a company in twenty fourteen and rides a lot about technology. Jeez. And there's a couple of other athletes that are starting to move towards EKO boards and less toxic materials in this half boards. But the movement has been slow and part of the reason for that is what I mentioned earlier where a lot of pro athletes, having ridden, PUP all of their careers are just wedded to it. But in addition, those materials are easier to work with. And when you look at the surfboard industry, it's a fairly low margin industry and a lot of the companies are relatively small relatively undercapitalized. There's no huge economies of scale coming into play. So when you have a material that yes, is more toxic but is cheap and easy to, to, to work with it's hard to pass that up. And especially when pro is getting a couple of hundred surfboards year and the top guys on pain for them. It's really hard for a lot of smaller competitors to be able to switch to more expensive materials without being able to pass that cost under the athlete. And that's why I think you have this inertia built into a lot of the existing materials, but things are changing. And, and I do feel that file. I has played a role in calling attention to these alternative materials and the liberty of them, and we're gonna continue on their poff. Absolutely. I wonder is there an added cost to making a more sustainable surfboard? Unfortunately, there is. And, you know, you don't get the economies of scale in terms of buying the materials themselves because a lot of the alternative material manufacturers and vendors are smaller companies. So their cost of goods Ohio than the giant chemical conglomerates that, that produce the traditional materials, and also the demont for them is obviously less than traditional materials. So even if the lodge companies are making them, they're not building them producing them in the quantities that, that would match the corresponding more toxic materials. So the cost of goods is high at anyway. And then things like, for example, poxy risen does take longer to cure than polyester, resin, and Tom is money. So it's a little bit more labor intensive to build the boards, the cost of the materials higher and where it gets tricky, you know, if you talk to the average surf, they will say that, let's take US price points, for example, our premium price points around seven hundred ninety five dollars at retail. And if you talk to the average surfer, they would say, well, well, that's what a surfboards worth if you talk to the average surfboard manufacturer, and they'll say, look, given the decades it takes to become an expert board expert board builder and the Tom and materials. It takes to build a surfboard they wait to cheap, but at the end of the day, something's on worth what the consumer's willing to pay for it. And because historically surfboards haven't been that durable after euro two, you can sell them in a garage sale for a couple of hundred. Bucks. It's depressed the consumer appreciation for what it's worth. So when you start using these more expensive sustainable materials, it's difficult to posh those additional costs under the consumer today because they just perceive. These fixed price points as to what soap was a worth. And when you go beyond that, you start losing market share. So you've got to have a commitment to the real long-term because you gonna eat some margin in the short run, if you want to build a less toxic. So ford. One of the things that your company's doing this year also you're expanding into long boards, have long bores traditionally been part of the, the echo board and sustainable surf programs, or is this sort of a, a new thing. Well, we've always been in the Longboard space, but we haven't spent the time and attention on it as we have ashort boards. And in addition, the Longwood market is split into a couple of different segments. In one of those segments has a particular aesthetic that they enjoy, and that's the gloss and polish finish. A lot of the traditional long boats have risen tense sip particular vibe to the Longboard market. That is quite different from the performance short board market. So we don't have that particular aesthetic in short boards that we can just then leverage into long boards, and we certainly could develop that product but cough came along, and they're a fledgling company about five years old, they're almost like a mini fire wire in the sense that they have some high profile athletes. They have a real point of difference in the construction methods and materials that they use highly technical, surfboards EPSN a poxy base. I. And they have perhaps most importantly, they have the aesthetic that the majority of Longboard surfers a looking for. So it was a great plug and play opportunity for us to leverage global platform. Bring a lot of acid stain ability initiatives to this supply chain and offer that product to a broader audience, which is part of the reason that we acquired the company, I want to ask about some of the other material changes that we're seeing in the surf industry, besides just boards. It seems like there's been a shift toward using recycled materials to make leashes or to make wetsuits or other sort of accessories that are involved in surfing, as a sport. Can you maybe talk about some of the trends around sustainability there? Yeah, no, that's that is a great question. And there are a variety of products out there to your point that are less toxic than their predecessors. And I think part of the reason for that is, I mean surface by definition play in the ocean. And whether it's just walking the shoreline. On in seeing a lot of the waste and pollution. Oh, just, you know, having that sense of sensibility around the environment, because we're in the ocean. I do think that we do gravitate towards the sustainability movement and less toxic products to paths, a greater degree than the average consumer. However. Surface, a cheap, and you've got to be able to bring all these products to market with incomparable price points to the more toxic versions, which is the point that we touched on earlier. So the challenge is to, to do that within a business model that profitable. And also, as I mentioned, you need to look long term because we believe that at some point in the future, the EKO credit or credentials of any particular product will become a driving force in the majority of consumer purchasing decisions. Whereas, I would say right now even though there's a lot of awareness around say climate change and the environment, environmental degradation. I don't think it's driving the majority of consumer purchases yet, but we firmly believe that they will come. And if you don't start preparing for now. We feel that you'll be kinda screwed because it's not something you can turn on a dime in the dress. When that day comes right? And speaking of looking a little bit longer term. I know that fire wire wants to become zero waste by twenty twenty tell us like sort of where you're at right now. Yeah, if I could just correct you on the on the terminology because we make the mistake as well. We're going to be zero landfill. Yeah. There is a distinction. So we currently have we've reduced our waste per board by over ninety five percent over the loss, two years. And so we've got a little further to go and it results in the recycling and upside cling of the waste stream so that they don't go into landfills, and we're well on our way to achieving that goal. And we're confident that by the end of twenty twenty we'll be zero landfill and I'd also like to mention that will we will also be fit trade certified late in this year, which is a labor standard, which is incredibly important to the global economy. At least we believe it is, and we will be the first and only soap would factor at least as of twenty nineteen who will reach that standard. Well, you know, you mentioned you're going to be the first company to, to hit these marks and just for some context, can you give this sort of an environmental report card on how the surfing industry on whole is doing what are some of the? Biggest failures of the industry, and some of the biggest successes that you see. Well, in our particular space, you know, the, the majority of surfboards around the world are still built from from some of the most toxic materials available. And so we've got a lot of work to do to get to the we like to phrase it as the detoxification of the modern surfboard because when not building cradle to cradle fully, sustainable products. That's many years into the future. But there's big steps that can be taken lack the EKO board certification, that can reduce the toxicity significantly. And I think in the in the latest statistics that sustainable sift put out the echo board, combined echo board production globally, was around sixty thousand units, and depending on who you talk to the global production of surfboards is any way of from six hundred thousand to about a million units. So only about ten percent of the so forth built in any given you. You reach ecoboost certification today. So clearly there's a lot of work to be done there. And I think the other part of it, which ties back to the broader economy is, we also have to start not only making better stuff, but buying less of it as well. So I think that the whole industry in the global economy needs thought shifting our consciousness around quality versus quantity, and, you know, given the, the rampant consumerism that exists across society ended applies to the surf market as well. I think there has to be a sea change in how we look at the things we buy what we do with them. And there's just a ton of work to be done on that front, both in the broader market and within the market itself. So I think. I don't as sound pessimistic, because we are on our way. But I don't think we should delude ourselves as to how much more work needs to be done. Can you tell us about your own history, surfing when and where did you start? What's your favorite spot? Sure. Yeah. You know, I grew up in South Africa when I was a kid in the, in the sixty surfing had a terrible reputation. So I made a deal with my dad that I could start surfing when I turned thirteen because he was terrified I was going to be a hippie drug addict, the moment stood up on a surfboard and he, he was not a hundred percent. Correct. But that's a different story. And so I started surfing in the early seventies in South Africa. I've been a lifelong surfer, it's been my passion. It's my north star. Every decision I make is filtered through its impact on my surfing, first and foremost, which, I guess, has narrowed the EPA chill of my life in some respects. But it's also given me focus, and I would have to say that Jeffrey's bay, which is one of the top point breaks in the world, located inside Africa. Would certainly be my go-to spot if it was only one place, I could serve for the rest of my life. Nice nice. Is that Jabe as they call it? Yeah. Exactly. Well, Mark Price. Thank you for joining us on the show and telling us all about the things that folks in the sustainable surf movement are doing to help save the oceans. Oh, thanks for the opportunity. That was fantastic. Interview I do regret missing it and now I'm more determined than ever to try a fire echo board, EKO Ford. There is a bunch of companies that make them lost. Surfboards also makes the most of them are concentrated down in the San Diego area, southern California, which is where the sustainable surf movement got started in. It's where the organization is. So although they also I think they're also based up here too. I don't know. I'm probably getting all that wrong. But most of the people making EKO boards are, are in are concentrated in Southern Cal. And we had one in our gift guide late last year. So if you're actually looking for more information you can always search for wired and could board. Look for ego about him a couple of times. That's right. That's right. We've got all the info you need aside from recommending surfboards, who we get into our other recommendations. All right. Let's do it who would like to go first. I'll go first. Okay. So my recommendation is a documentary. It's. A documentary film. It is a four hour documentary film on the show, time network on premium cable. It is called root Tang of mikes and men, great title. It's really, really good. So it's about the Tang clan the rap group from the well I mean they're still round but from like ninety three until about ninety eight they were at absolutely the top of their game. And it is a collective of roughly ten people who grew up together on Staten Island, the Rizza the Geneva. The old dirty bastard. The ghost face killer master killer, Ray Kwan, the chef method man, sometimes Capitana, who else might forgetting, I don't know. There's probably a couple in their inspect deck. Yeah. Anyway, the root Tang clan Tang clan. It's a fantastic documentary. It's not one of those, like puffy documentaries that, you know, sort of skirts, some of the more serious issues. It's a really. Great look at their history and has a lot of old. You know, videotaped footage from the ninety s it charts their rise. And then all the problems money changes, everything with them cash ruins everything around them. You could say, okay you're not tank. But they had does it go deep in the gravel pit. That's would hang isn't it crap it? Oh, I can't remember. Oh, really hope it was. Oh boy. I'm just got showed up. During my own recommendation, I'm like ninety nine point nine nine nine nine. Yeah. The gravel pit. Okay. All right. Yes, it does. It does. Boy, is my face. Red. There's, there's a lot in there about how their personal relationships fall apart, and it's actually kind of interesting to see them like sitting there next to each other talking about other personal relationships have fallen apart and how all of their disagreements have gotten in the way. But there's also this strong bond between all of them because they all started from the same place and they all sort of lifted each other up out of that place together. They're all they all have this, brotherly bond that seems eternal and transcends all of their, you know, arguments and lawsuits about money. It's pretty amazing pretty amazing. So I can definitely recommend it, it came out may the very beginning of may, and it is four hours was broken up into four parts so woo Tang of mikes and men totally watch that does follows him through some of their solo careers. Yeah. I mean, the solo career is a big part of their story, you know. So they put out the first record and then immediately followed up with, like five solo albums, and all the Rizza produced. All of them. So you see, like there's I think the whole second episode is about that is just about like the explosion. And how marketable they are. And the fascinating thing that happened is after they got success. They all wanted to get out of their contract that tied them to Tang clan. So he like the Rizzo who owned the company and his brother. They signed away all of their artists, and, you know, tremendously devalued the company that they had built. But they, they still see it as the right thing to do, even though it was terrible. Businesses Susan because that's why they're all still friends. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty awesome. Cool. We'll check that out. And if you have Tang songs that you think Mike should listen to send them to his Koogle. On my I'm like, I know the first record. Really? Well, the thirty six chambers. The first ODBC record the Cuban Linx record Ray Kwan's record. I know really well and liquid swords the is record. I know that one really well and Bobby digital stuff, and that's about right. And with, with, with my woo knowledge, really bums me out that you didn't get that reference right away. But I'm gonna forgive you for that. Sorry, that's okay. Trying to play the official music video right now or at least fifteen seconds of it, but the internet's not so great here. Oh, no. This bad words can't have that on. Oh, I'm getting like the extended video taken a really long time. So while that lows Oriole. What's your recommendation my recommendation? Is he? All right. Go ahead. It's so weird. You took the words right out of my mouth. So I was in Austin from Amaury all day weekend, and Austin, if you haven't visited recently is a city that has become completely overrun by scooter in bike shares, the scooters in particular are like everywhere in Austin, it's insane. So I rode some scooters, I wrote some jump bikes, but the thing I would actually like to recommend is that we rented a car from the peer to peer car rental app Turow, which is fantastic. I'd never used it before. But it works kind of like Airbnb four cars so people can list their vehicles on this app, and you can rent them, very, very cheaply. So we borrowed a car from a nice, gentleman, named Monique and is gar was like twenty dollars a day or something really, really affordable. And it was great. It was a really seamless experience, super, easy and really nice. Nice to have around for the weekend. So if you are in the market for a car rental, and don't wanna go through the whole rigmarole, with enterprise, our budget, or one of the big services Turlough is a great option. I second that I've used her. Oh, a few times, and more recently, I used it in LA crazy thing about LA is now they have an entire parking lot of Turturro's. It's like going to a rental lot, an like an Avis or Hertz. And actually wonder what kind of deal they worked out the city or the airport, or whatever municipality they had to deal with in order to get this lot? But it's an entire lot of tros. Yeah. Right. You can you can you can upgrade you'd be like I would like that convertible for the weekend so you can have multiple days you can do with zipcar. That's right. Interesting. Okay. I've always done traditional car rentals. Like I've been, there's this one rental company that I've been using for literally twenty five years, and they have my entire rental history, going back twenty five years. So I show up and they just like give me a free upgrade, or like they give me the insurance for free or some crazy perp like that, just because they appreciate my business. So I've never not rented from them. Our airline, just just so for those of you can't see we're just nodding at him. Yeah, absolutely. No waiting for him. The new generation you sound like a person who's like while I would just always put a hotel because the helps I am always upgrade now. That's nice. I realize I realize this. Yes. I am that person. But a pretty much only with like rental cars. All right. Right. It's fair. Well, have you ever want to rent something really like different or wilder unique? Yeah, one other piece of anecdotal evidence is that for my birthday this year. My boyfriend threw me a surprise party, which involved driving a bunch of people up to Napa, and he rented on Toronto, a twelve seater van, which he said, was like, really cheap and fit twelve of us who, who even knows where you would rent, something like that. Otherwise, this is verging on spawn. Con. This company how great Nayyar turnover if you'd like to offer free credit. Would happily accept. Your ethics or nonexistent enough totally except those. What's your recommendation, my recommendation is that you run? Don't walk home to watch fleabag season two on Amazon prime video you should also watch season one. I if you have not. But if you have then you should hurry up and watch season two, it's a series that is created by created. And starring Phoebe Wallace Waller's, she's me, Phoebe Waller bridges. Thank you very much Phoebe. I love your work. I normally know your name, my brain is a little cloudy at the moment. It's just a fantastic darkly funny. British series in she as the star often about relationships softened about familiar relationships. It's about romantic relationships. There's this whole backstory from the first season that I think is really critical to understand to know where some of the central characters angst comes from, but she's just darkly funny, and she does this thing. Often where she breaks the plane, and she speaks directly to the audience, and in season two, I think more than season one, she really Britain braces, the idea that the audience, she is speaking to are her friends, and that they are really her only friends who are supporting her and her bizarre sort of navigation of family life. And this season centers are on hop priest. He's called the hot priest not my name. Pretty sure he exists somewhere in a dry folder. Yeah he's Irish and it's really great. There's so much tension in it. And I forget the actors saying we were just talking to the day. I forget the actor's name who plays her sister's husband, but boy is he great character and her sisters, a great character to or sisters sort of classically uptight, and there's a lot of like sort of moments where. She's able to break through the veneer for sister, and they connect. And you kind of if you have siblings, you couldn't understand that relationship on to Seattle could seriously, I highly recommend it. It was it was based on a one woman show that she did in London. And she is like, I think right now we're very recently did reprieve of it. And now, she's like putting into bed. She's done with the show. She's done with the one woman show, and she's done with the character, and she's moving onto other things. One of the characters name right now. I think I think her name is like supposed to be Phoebe but like fleabag is like a nickname. Yeah. And she's never she's never spoken to by name, right? Yeah. She's also a Phoebe is also the creator of killing eve, ARGUS the co creator and writer of the whole first season of killing never watched that she handed over control of that to a different person for season two, which is happening. Right now. But that was her. That was her creation, as well. So lots of great stuff coming out of her mind. Yeah, yeah. For real. That's my very eloquent, supportive for real. It's great real. I write back. I binged it as it was fantastic. I can't wait to watch it. You got see it. Well, thank you all for listening to us ramble on. And a reminder not spun con- nuts bond with our Dacians. You can find us all on Twitter, if you have things to yell at us or Beretta's, or if you want our, g mail addresses, you can send us Google docs, learn how to people find you on the Twitter. You could find me out lowering good with an e and send me vitamin C, Arielle. What is your Twitter at partner Tarik, and I'm at snack fight, and you could talk to all of us at gadget lab, which is the account for this show. And for our channel on wired, and we also want to welcome and thank the person sitting in the engineering chair this week, which is boon boon Ashworth, who is with us for the remainder of twenty nineteen. And I'm sure you'll get to hear his. Eloquent speaking voice on some future episode. We'll be back next week talking about everything that happens at WW D. And until then we'll see you in the gravel pit.

Google apple Mike Alexa Amazon EKO Mark Price CEO Tim cook Kelly Slater Tom Simon Oriole California official Lauren Smartwater Michael Laurie AI
Panos Panay Says Microsofts New Phone Isnt a Phone

Gadget Lab Podcast

46:38 min | 1 year ago

Panos Panay Says Microsofts New Phone Isnt a Phone

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus. Ph to the wired world. It's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water water. That's pretty smart. Hi Everyone I'm Michael Calorie. I'm an editor here wired hired in you're listening to the gadget lab the podcast where we talk about the latest gadgets apps and services that you need to know about and how they impact our lives. I am joined by my co hosts wired tired senior writer Arielle parties allow and wired senior writer Lauren good hello our most loyal listeners might have just noticed that that inter sounded a little different and that's because Arielle has just been promoted to senior writer here wired relations and her areas of coverage will be changing being a little bit and we're excited not only four her but also because you're still going to be joining us in the podcast when you can rate that's right. That's right so tell us a little about your areas of coverage now and and what kinds of bits of gossip and tips and juicy information people can send your way. I am interested in all the gossip tech related or not. I'm very easy to find on twitter quitter and email so if you wanna gossip I'm always here but my new role will be focusing a little bit more on the weird intersections between different parts of our tech quarreled so I'll still be covering gadgets when I can but I also had a story run in our business section today. I have a story running in our science section in a couple of days so I'll be doing a little bit more more cross desk explorations excellent well. That's all the news that we have time for the news. That's the big news. I'm just kidding actually actually later on in the show. We're going to have an interview with Microsoft Chief Product Officer Panos Panay that Lauren conducted this past week and you are not going to want WanNa miss that law Roman up to Seattle to see the brand new surface neo and service duo ahead of their big reveal and well. Microsoft is getting back into the phone business even though they don't want you to call it a phone we had a chance to ask Panos all kinds of questions and you'll hear Lauren deliver those questions with pointed tongue later later but first. There's some news to get through. I that's right. I think I encourage all of you to do a shot. Every time you hear me say the word phone and every time you oh say the word surface in response people to die. You know I mean drink responsibly but get your shock last ready. Okay so you know that we can't let this podcast go by without updating you on facebook a little bit earlier this week the verge published transcripts from two hours of leaked audio from facebook facebook meetings that occurred this past July. Now the fact that the audio leaked was noteworthy in itself since facebook hosts regular employee meetings in generally we don't hear anything about them but but was more noteworthy where some of the things Mark Zuckerberg had to say about facebook competitors the threat of government regulation and how his own personal conduct impacts the way people look at the company so there wasn't any one big bombshell remark that stands out to me anyway from these meetings and I did read through the transcript but Zuckerberg did. I'd say that if Elizabeth Warren gets elected president in twenty twenty he anticipates legal challenge because she of course has called for huge structural changes to the tech sector and he said he would fight that basically sucker. Berg also said that tick tock is doing well and indicated. It's a Chinese company. He's keeping a close eye on talked about how facebook has launched a competitive product uncalled. Lasso and Mexico sort of test the waters in a market that doesn't have a big presence he talked about people's perceptions facebook including the press and how people people need to people at facebook need to back trust and he downplayed some of the reports about contractors who work content moderators for the company calling them over for dramatic so like I said it wasn't really one thing I think that necessarily jumped out but the summation of remarks that gave people a window into what Zuckerberg is thinking right now so is facebook finds. Its way through these murky waters. What did you guys think of this. I I kind of wonder if you guys got the sense that he's downplaying some of the major existential threats threats to facebook right now or or if maybe I'm over playing the existential threats because as I see it like it's not just Elizabeth Warren that's a threat in this antitrust stuff afraid like there are multiple antitrust probes against facebook that are already happening so the idea that the company is monopoly might get broken up is a is a very real threat as far as I can tell but there's also this public perception issue right like people are not super keen on facebook as a company they're not super keen on Zuckerberg as a person and and that seems like an existential threat as well and what I sort of found reading through this is that he seemed to kind of brush a lot of that away like tick tock whatever over it's bigger keeping an eye on it dealing with Elizabeth Warren whatever she might pose a legal threat but we're GONNA fight it. Do you think that's a valid response. That was those are also his remarks to his employees right so he's probably holding a little bit back right and some level you probably want to offer reassurances reassurances to your employees because you have to make sure they keep working and stay motivated and are at least relatively happy about the place that they're working working adding contributing most of their waking life too so you have to you know sort of mollify people if you will in your employee workforce in order to. Oh make them feel better about what they're they're working for you on a day to day basis but I agree with you in the sense that the way that he especially talked about the press he basically basically said we got away with a lot the first years existence and then sometime around twenty sixteen which was a big election year. people started to pay more attention to these issues. Once it comes back to this is the way we're being perceived. People are paying attention. People are looking people are criticizing and scrutinizing rather other than Oh and finally all the things we were doing several years earlier that were questionable are now coming to light so yeah. I don't know facebook as because of this because perception problems facebook has real problems right well speaking of facebook which is definitely not a monopoly despite the fact that it owns facebook instagram WHATSAPP MESSENGER and now a brand new messaging. Adam has a brand new messaging APP. It's called threads. This is something it's been launched as a spin off of instagram so it's a standalone APP but it works as a complement to your instagram experience you have to download threads separately but then he log in with your instagram credentials and it's basically meant to extend the experience of your close friends list so that's a feature that launched last year on instagram. I'm it lets you pick a couple. People who see privileged content on your instagram's stories. I'm threads is meant to be just for those people so your close friends. Last are the only only people who show up in threads. Now the APP kind of works like snapchat. I hate to make that comparison but it's the easiest way to explain it. it opens to the camera and then there's inbox where you can chat with your friends but because it's only for your close friends you can basically customize the experience so you're only getting notifications from the people you really care about and then you can check their messages and look at their photos without having to wade into the vortex of the main instagram app to me it seems kind of absurd for facebook to launch yet another messaging. APP especially one that is sort of like an extension of instagram. DM experience but at the same time I'm kind of secretly into to it I love the idea that you can have a space. That's just for the people who've decided you want to be bothered by and turn off notifications for absolutely everything else. Only check your instagram feed when you're ready to waste an hour scrolling people's fotos and really prioritize those connections that are meaningful to you and that's what instagram's product product team said when I interviewed them about this they said like what would it look like to have a messaging experience that was just for the people you care about and no one else could infiltrate that and I thought it was kind of Nice. But what do you guys think do you. Do you use the close friends future. I don't but I noticed a lot of people do and I think that threads launching is sort of evidence. What's that a lot of people are using close friends and it's also evidence at a lot of people are using instagram as their primary method of communicating with people or maybe their secondary or tertiary method of communicating with people which is still a big deal because you have eight hundred ways to sensibly a note right so like I you know I'm still at that phase in my life is in Middle Age wjr where when I open instagram. I'm sort of surprised to see that I have a message. That's come in and I'm like Ooh who got in touch with me. You know it's a novelty to me but I'm sure or to a lot of people. It's just everyday life because they're they're just on it all the time so for me. If I just WANNA see messages it makes sense to have something like threads because if I open instagram lost in the feed or in stories more likely I spent so much time. Stories actually just set a timer on my phone that only allows let me use instagram for one hour a day. I set the timer on Sunday today is Thursday. I've hit that timer every single day I've run without. I've spent exactly one hour on instagram everyday this week and it doesn't feel like I'm spending enough time in it. What time of the day do you usually watch your stories first thing in the morning and at the very end of the day when I'm laying down in bed yeah on weekends I'll make myself breakfast and then I'll open stories and I'll just like brought my phone up and I'll eat as I watched stories on my phone phone. Do you ever use TV. only for music stuff like you for band posted a new video or something is anybody using IGT to be known this. I don't know I posted I post videos to you. Do Okay how interesting yeah. This is all about facebook trying to get into every corner of your life possible possible and it's also probably a part of its grand plan to unify its messaging systems at some point at least on the back end so orioles point like you don't have to have instagram you just have to have an instagram log in credentials of some sort and same with instagram right. I don't think you have to have instagram log and you can use facebook if that's correct. Maybe I don't know. It just seems like they're. They're you Ito. They're trying to be everywhere at some point. You're just GONNA use one sort of federated I D. That's like your facebook. Federated idea that works across all of these things and messages are going to be flying everywhere but but facebook powering all of them not if Elizabeth Warren has right curious to see if close friends hops around from apt tap what's up eventually Would we be your close friends. Yeah of course you're the only people in that group okay well. I have not quite self driving car news. Tell you about Tesla pushed out a software update last week that gives the owner of has has led the ability to summon their car automatically so how it works is if you're in a parking lot or the other end of your crazy long driveway instead of walking your car you just. Plod your phone opened the Tesla App and then tap a button that says come to me the car then hopefully drives itself to where you're standing so as you can imagine. Tesla published a a number of caveats along with this update as in you should only use the new feature it's called smart summoned on private property so a private parking lot or your own driveway and and since it in Beta you should keep your eyes on your car at all times just in case things go awry not surprisingly. Tesla owners eager to show off their newly driverless cars are recruiting videos of smart summit in action and posted onto the Internet and of course the most embarrassing of the videos are getting all the attention but those videos are quite white embarrassing. There've been a few close calls a couple of actual fender benders and at least one instance where the Tesla appears to be unable to distinguish Eugene grass and pavement when the person summons it and drives right across the grass. It's very funny. now the idea behind smart summon is undoubtedly cool right like you press a button in your car drives itself to you but the quirks and the system illustrate that you should always be skeptical of any automaker or the CEO of an automaker in this case who claims that self driving cars are almost here. The sensors are not already and more importantly. The humans who own the cars are still just two trusting of the technology. has anyone been hit yet by by their own tesla when they're out of the car. I haven't seen that okay. Thank goodness because I mean that would be awful but that's what I think about. If you're standing manning a certain distance away and you're like come to me car and the car hit actually read things properly it will remain meantime just this happening differently than it is well. The sensors aren't quite sensitive enough. They can't see any more than maybe a dozen or two dozen feet in front front of them for the for the fully self-driving thing so the only go about five miles an hour like they go parking lot speed. They don't they're not zooming over to you so even if it did hit you you. It probably wouldn't hurt you that say unless your disabled or you have an injury and you can't move out of the way or if a car hitting you at two or three miles an hour is gonna knock you over and I mean it sounds like a toy for rich people but really I mean it is but it's also very a very important step in the world of mobility and accessibility right like you're making it easier for people who can't walk to their car to get into their car so in in that sense. I'm not answering your question. Is that what it's actually four. It's supposed to be for those who have mobility challenges. I mean it's I think it's just like an unintended bonus. Oh interesting. It's so that you don't have to walk to your car. Ha That's what it's for. It's just press about in your car drives. You 'cause like that's cool right. I mean I guess it's that's the ultimate future ray in some like they're all self driving at some point and not earlier. They self driving once. We're on the road actually just come to us in. That's that's. That's how it's going to have to work right. It's not like a driver's. GonNa roll up your self driving car and then hop out here you go so. I took it this far betty here. I'll get you the rest of the I don't know well. Speaking of the future the other big news this this week is that Microsoft announced new lineup of surface products and I think it's time we listened to Lauren's interview with Panos Yosick with break in the milk comeback. That support for this podcast comes from smartwater smart water is for the curious fresh thinkers. The ones who ask is questions and are never satisfied with norm the ones who believe in doing things the smart way even if it's as simple as drinking water. That's why smart water is proud to introduce new you smart water alkaline. An antioxidant designed to enhance the every day new smart water alkaline has nine plus. Ph hydration after working up a sweat wet and new smart water antioxidant has added Selenium both with the smart water taste you know and love hydration with your body and mind in mind and smart water. That's pretty smart earlier. This week. Microsoft revealed a lineup of new surface hardware from a new surface laptop to surface pro seven to totally wire free surface ear buds but there were a couple of new products in particular that stood out mainly because one of them signals Microsoft's move back into mobile. It's it's a dual screened pocket device that runs on Android but Microsoft chief product officer. Panos panay insisted it wasn't a quote unquote phone and of course I had to ask him about this. Why Microsoft has decided now to get back into the game. We also talked about the surface pro x a tablet debts running windows ten. Eh powered by a mobile chipset so without any further build up. Here's Panos Panos. Thanks so much for joining us on the Gadget lab today. Thanks for coming over to see US pretty exciting day. Actually it's been a really interesting day here at Microsoft and we are taping this from Microsoft Conference Room so if the audio is a little bit different than what you're normally used to on the the gadget lab that is why but hopefully you'll forgive because I think this is going to be a really interesting conversation and I want to start off by quoting you from almost exactly a year ago the last time we met here on this campus you were showing me the surface go back then and I asked you towards the end never conversation which ran on the gadget lab. Are you working on a phone. I don't know if I put it as bluntly as that but we we got there and you said that your plans for the future. It doesn't include a surface phone but includes the way to think about what it is. People want to accomplish and how will they accomplish it and what are those form factors and the thing is this is. I'm seeing something today that it looks a lot like a phone. I think what you're seeing is a surface. You are it in it looks and it and it is exactly those things I mean. This is is about a product we built that can help people accomplish more but actually more so than just accomplish feel good about it and so we look at new foreign factors all the time. We've been working on this one for some time when you asking that question. I remember my heart sinking a little bit like how do I answer and truth is we don't. I don't look at it as a phone I look at it as a surface so I can justify the answer at some level but at the same time it's a pretty cool form factor. It's small. It's like a phone and it just extends the capabilities of everything you can do on your phone today so you can just do so much more so let's quickly co through what we're seeing today there first there's the surface neo and that is a dual screen device but it's got a thirteen point one inch diagonal. Don't WanNA extended then. We're looking at the duo which has an eight inch diagonal when it's extended when it's closed each individual's screen has it's a five point six inch display okay. Jim Pretty good so far but and so it's not a foldable which is big word right now because the Samsung's foldable displays this is something that's a dual screen foam. You talk about why you decided to do that. It was just about how much can be accomplished in the in two screens coming together for people and accomplished again and take that into how much more creative you can be more productive. You can be where you don't have to context which out of a single screen it's also the ability that there's a three hundred sixty degree hinge that allows these these two screens to go back to back and then use it in a phone like you you can't imagine the benefits of being able to let this device software and hardware together adapt up to you and that's a big thing there's limitations with foldable that you will not find here with our two screens coming together and then ultimately the elegance of how thin it is and how light it is now how it fits in your pocket and you know you put those two screens together and you put it up next to the phone you're holding towards me and they're the same exact thickness for the most part and you so. It's bringing those elements of beauty. There are so important when you pull something to your backfield good and then it's extending you into being more creative and productive and that's I think that's the inspiration of surface all up when you look at the whole new surface line. That's what drives US productivity. How do we how do we help. People be everything they want to be when they're creating. How do we help them produce what they want to produce create. Crete their dreams right off of that canvas. That's an instrument that we call surface and just to be clear. It makes phone calls. Absolutely it makes phone calls but I don't you know how many people actually make phone calls anymore. That's what my Jealous I. We look at the data over like God. There's not a lot of phone calls compared to text and video calls and everything else but you absolutely Lulu does make phone calls like that. Can I have no speech for that so this. I mean this is a big deal. You used to be in the mobile phone. Business Microsoft exited the mobile phone business. You know that people people are going to see this and they're gonNA think Microsoft's getting back into the phone business. You're working with Google on this which we're going to get to but let's talk about why now because to me. It seems like there are a couple big companies out there. Microsoft Amazon comes to mind where there's really the you make a lot of really good products but the phone has been this this glaring omission right and but now we're at a point where the market's getting a little bit more mature and sales are slowing the smartphone so what made you think it but we should still be. We should still be working on a phone. We should still be making that thing that pocket thing. I think we it was pretty simple. There is an era of mobile. You've talked about internal anyway. This era of mobile creativity is happening. Like how much can you get down on your the devices in your pocket your phone and I think it's limited today and we always always looked at it and said if we can bring surface productivity or surface creation to the smaller form factor the one that would would expand kind of create or complete the symphony of devices that we have today the different instrument that somebody might use and we have huge fans and surface. You know we have a pretty large business. That's growing. We have fans that ask a lot. Hey are you ever GonNa make a phone and while we didn't look at it as a foam we built it. We looked into the surface. It felt like the right time because in the extension of this modern era you're doing more and more your sharing sharing more content right off that screen and while people we know they love our current product line and we hope we we are going to have a you know a great holiday today with the products that we're announcing today but we also know that extending into the pocket makes a massive difference but it was only relevant truly truly only relevant if we knew we do know that you can be more productive more creative on it otherwise it's just a phone that wasn't it and that's why it's surface and that's what we're going after we this is bringing all of Microsoft together on one product again but it's on the West that's right for the product and why is the Google android o s right for the product and it's just a first off. It's androids and incredible. Os It's the largest in the world fundamentally when it comes was to mobile devices and you know the applications that you can get from android. That's just real. That's what people need and that's what we're here for. Socio talks about people centered design the way we think about people people I as a matter of fact all the technology that we build today it should and must fade to the background. It shouldn't matter what the says it shouldn't matter alternately at all it what should matter is what you WanNa do and so this is the right of West for what people want to do in this form factor but it's also the best Microsoft on it. I mean it is and so that's what we're doing. We're bringing surface to that mobile form factor and we're you know we're partnered with Google to do it. Did you consider at any point reviving or rebuilding a Microsoft mobile operating system no not at all no why is that because at the end of the day where the application sit today like the opportunity that people already have lean into that developers over to take advantage of is right there and there there's a there's a reality you too that I think is you know to ignore. That would be a bit silly like it would be very silly. Did you consider at any point making a single screen device that would have been google but with great Microsoft software. I consider a lot of things this team thinks about a lot of things and like I told you last when it makes sense for the form factor to be different to make people more productive we might make it. I think in the case of a single screen phone now we didn't think about it but we will always think about new form factors but ultimately this was about dual screen with a three hundred sixty degree hinge with software that was gonNA adapt both on Neil and duo. That was gonna make you more productive. I don't think you know that product exists. It's actually the antithesis of a single screen phone in many ways for me. Explain in that a little bit more because ultimately get to stay in context more and with your phone. You're switching INCON- switching context all the time I know there's application layers and and people are saying no you can do two things at the same you don't people don't like no the end of the day with the structured space that we're creating and then windows on. Neil especially like you're just watching this flow in in between two applications or one extending your mind. It's magical I. I can't wait for people to use it because it really is magical. Your mind turns on. You're actually thinking less than getting more done. which is a very powerful state the state we see that I call that we talked about his flow? It's like the time when you not thinking your best idea comes up. You're actually thinking you're just not trying to and mystifies puts you. They're both of them do when you use zoom. Everyday is a little better zoom video communications. The Web's best reviewed videoconference service is used by millions to meet one on one or hundreds at a time zoom videoconferencing. Lets you connect face to face with anyone across town down or around the world with flawless video clear audio an instant sharing files video or anything and you can connect through any device desktop laptop laptop tablet smartphone or your conference room system zoom videoconferencing zoom rooms zoom video webinars zoom phone put state of the art tech at your fingertips tips and let you do business at the speed of zoom look if you're not using zoom video communications the only question. I have is why not I'll make it super easy for you visit zoom online and instead of a free account today. Try the most affordable and most reliable video communications solution on the market meet happy with Zoom. I want to get to some of the other products that you you also unveiled this week but quickly. I mean you've been in the service business. Now for seven years has been and along the way there have been some starts and in stops and no pun intended start menu but you know surface. Rt You know I'm Never GonNa let you live that one down but you but that was something that was you know Brian. Always bring it upright but it was running on a chip at an arm architecture and it was kind of this hybrid mobile device and it was experimenting with software and that sort of thing and and you early to that what kind of learnings do you take from something like that. What kind of learning's do you take from your overall experience with the surface line and apply it to this a ton in the sense that when we started that product Arctic we didn't even have customer feedback we were we had this belief we were inventing product that you click in a keyboard and maybe you could be more productive on a tablet and we thought people were conflicted and believed in new and I think it turned out that way in some ways. What do I buy a laptop a tablet. What's there was back. Then seven years ago there was a lot of momentum around what a tablet was and we felt like it was limiting kind of like just a consumption device in many ways and there wasn't much more you can do on it and so we had the learnings of what did it mean to quicken and keyboard and get it done. We also had the belief that the mobile architecture if you will an arm architecture was pretty important back then and in the sense that you know silicon diversity where our customers can choose what they want. I talked about symphony of devices includes. Like what are the materials. What does the chipset. What is it that you think is most important to you if you're really tech forward person and pushing it like by the way this product doc pro axis for you like this incredible product? We understood back then that it mattered differences matter but we also didn't really understand enough about mobile architecture's. There's just not enough. Just being a mobile chip wasn't enough to make a real. Pc Out of it and you know the learnings of the software and the interaction model that came with it and really where people ready for that idea and what was coming in if you take the growth mindset that Microsoft talks about in these are words that have deep meaning our culture matters in the sense of how much can we learn. It's not just learned and it's not just that you failed. It's did you take flirting and apply them. I think when you look at pro x today you're looking at Yup. You're looking on an arm based architecture starts from mobile chipset but ultimately we transform the part heart and made it a full. PC architecture part. It's pro ex. We can kind of think of chips that has like a hybrid like a crossover chip that wasn't that's never existed before this product has never never been the GPO on the product. I think pushes to teraflops. It's insane. I think you're talking about the pro. X What I was actually asking about. Was this whole idea that with the neo beyond the duo. Your one is running. An Intel chip in one is running on qualcomm chips. He's got a mobile chip and then you've got an but you're not concerned that that is going to be confusing to people at all because they're accustomed accustomed to certain foreign factors running on certain okay but now let's talk about the product so the proactiv plus. That's okay. No that's great so the surface pro x is part of this other lineup. These these are things that are shipping this holiday season so you've got new service laptops including a fifteen inch. You've also got the surface pro seven. which is the tablet attachable that at this point folks the way and now you've got this pro ex yeah? What is this pro. X is It's the evolution of the pro line but it is. It's a bit cutting edge. It's for the It really is for the technology enthusiasts at once the thinnest sexiest. I know I'm sure he's where but honestly to me. It's it's a sexy device. You pick it up. It's not wonky. It's not it's perfectly balanced the super thin you hold it. It's like you if you're leaning forward in tech it's incredible and it is the evolution solution of proline which is a super important modernizes it and it brings this comment basically a mobile product in your hands in the sense of if you're a mobile professional you want to move and you. WanNa fool. PC with you at all times so pro x was meant to do for you but it also has this chip in it called the Microsoft S Excu one chip. I think I got that right. Is that right okay rescue. What is this all chip so we partner with qualcomm about. I don't I don't know the timeframes actually a two to three years ago. We started building a chip that where we knew we wanted to build a product from the inside out in the sense of if we're gonNA push leading edge if we were going to get to that five point two millimeters of thinness but with the full to if you will teraflops of GP and full capability with full speed we had to redesign rethink the processor altogether so we sat and we designed it together. We created it. We there's an AI block basically on the device where you can offload basically machine learning or any I work that wanted to be done. I think you saw some collapsed today and then the fundamental. GPO was exactly what we wanted to push for that allowed it to be passively cooled allowed the product to become as thin as it needed and wanted to be but it also probably it. There's nothing like in its class that has its performance and a PC architecturally this. How important is it to control the silicon in today's world of hardware. It's important to build the silicon in the device together for sure and with all our partners right now were and very deep like we partner with Andy we in very deep. We have a new chipset. That's in the laptop. Fifteen inch we part with Intel were building from the ground up if view sauce surface neo today because this is the truth of the product from the inside out has to be fully custom and clear and you see Microsoft s q one which is the beginning of kind of a shipping a product with qualcomm and putting market where you're getting the full performance of a piece with the benefits of the mobile architecture and arm prequel. What are you most excited about this year. It's not fair to ask this question really and I knew you would I could feel it coming feeling like in feelings. Wrap up feelings a big thing. I think it's totally unfair. It's like asking asking who your favorite child is honestly and I have four kids and one time I said in a keynote which who my favorite was and I'm still feeling the pain from from it. Just see you know to this day. I can't even repeat what I said but I was like you. All have a favorite you'd know it and this one's mind and it was a joke but holy kill myself feeling that pain so I don't think I'm an answer your question. I'll tell you this the current surface product line as it stands collectively. It feels like this symphony of choice for customers. I don't think there's a there isn't a product that can't serve somebody to get to their most creative a point and I'm passionate about it like it's it's got the it's full. It's it's come such a long way from what you just asked seven years ago like that question like at some point have to let the Arteaga should ask it every single time because I love answering it every single time but I'm pretty proud of the product but most proud of the team so he said what's your favorite thing. I think my favorite everything if I were to step back at a product permanent is how much loved team puts into these products and when I say team this is Microsoft I mean really across the board and I have my favorite teams too but I won't tell you when you talk about these though is suites of products. I see what you're saying because you're you really are starting to fill in the gaps but then I think about something like let's look at your competitor apple and and the way that their software works from mobile to laptop right so right now if I were to buy one of the new surface laptop so that's GonNa be running windows ten. Let's say I buy the super cool new duo. Oh which is a phone because that's my that's my mobile. you know how how are those two operating systems actually went together. They will we're well. That's where we're building this. This is are we have. We have a good year head start but the fundamental the seamlessness of the your phone APP. That's out there right now. It's built focused on our product where surface pro x surface laptop surface book surface pro. All of them are going to have a pure integration with surface duo hundred percent. It'll feel seamless. Were pretty excited about that. That's a big reason why I like the customers at work in the store all the time and say no. Can I get a can. I get a product to put in my pocket. Some people say phone and they were pretty excited about that part. I look forward to trying it out. Thank you so much for your time. It's a lot of fun a lot of fun cinemas always if you're running your own a business stop for a moment and think about all the hours you spend moving information from one service to another or from your desktop to the cloud and back again all that software doesn't work together seamlessly seamlessly so you have to do a lot of manual work to get the different APPS and services sharing data. Well not anymore thanks to Zapper. Zappia is the easiest way to automate your work. It connects all the various software applications and cloud services. You use to manage your business and handle the heavy lifting for you so you can focus on the things that matter the most. Zap your lets you instantly engage with customers share files with people automatically and send notifications to your team so they never miss an opportunity and that's scratching the surface. Zappia supports more than fifteen hundred the business applications so the possibilities are virtually endless best of all. It's easy to build the exact solution you need and just minutes without writing code or asking a developer for help. No more wasting your time time on tasks that you know could be automated because automating tasks is exactly what Zappia was bill to do. Just go to our special link. Zappia dot com slash gadget connect the APPs used the most and let's appier take it from there join more than four point five million people who are saving an average of forty hours per month by using here right now through November tries is happier free by going to our special link Zappia dot com slash gadget. That's Z. A. P. E. R. dot com slash gadget for your free fourteen day trial well. That was a great interview Lauren. I have to know. Are you going to get a duo the dual screen phone not phone thing when it comes out it depends on how much it costs. They weren't sharing any information about price and it depends on if it's ships frankly because this is something they're targeting for the holiday season twenty twenty and a lot can happen between now and then. I personally feel bolstered by the fact that Microsoft is confident enough that the world is still going to exist in holiday twenty twenty so so enough that they're planning a product to ship then so Let's just go with that for now. Okay okay also right now. It's time for recommendations. Let's do it with Arielle. Do you WanNa go first I would love to I am recommending something near and dear to my heart which you can all partaken if you'd like it's called Stoic Week and it's a week long investigation into modern stoicism so this is something I discovered last year. It's basically an online conference friends which means that its functions conference but you're not actually go anywhere or pay any money and the idea is that it introduces people who are brand new to stoicism awesome as well as people who may know a little bit already to some of the basic tenants and exercises in living a modern STOIC lifestyle and you may be thinking at this. This point stoicism sounds kind of boring or dull. An emotional sounds like it involves a lot of suffering that is not what stoicism is it is in fact much more closely related to modern cognitive behavioral therapy in the sense that it teaches you to retrain your mind to think about things in different ways and to focus on the value of what you can control and what you already have. I got a lot out of it last year. You don't have to actually do much but they're like readings and exercises sizes and a community of people online who are really cool and smart and if you want to participate or it's on interesting at all it starts on Monday October seventh so you still still have time. I've been tweeting about it. I think my twitter followers little sick of it but it's great. I just took the pre-conference life satisfaction survey today and I was a little surprised judge wear. Some of my results ranked so I'm hoping that in a week you will see a happier less angry unburden Arielle in this room. I don't think of you as burdens now or angry for that. Neither surveys does y yeah well. My life satisfaction ranked high but like showed a anger levels which is weird to me anyway stoicism. It's all the rage fantastic all their age for me. Mike what's your I'm going to recommend a podcast. It is a music podcast. It's called the open urban ears project and it's a daily podcast. from W Q x are in New York city which is the big classical station in New York City. it is like eight or nine or ten minutes long each episode and it's really interesting. They ask a person to talk about a piece of classical music that has profoundly affected them and their lives and they have not famous people and then they occasionally they'll have a famous a person like there's one with Ian McEwan British novelist. There's one with Eddie Izzard the the comedian and they will talk about the peace. We'll talk about the time they first encountered. It may be encountered when they were child or when like close friend died and then they talk about the what it does to them when they listen to it. It's usually because it's costco music. It's usually like Oh. It soothes me. It makes my muscles relax but occasionally you find somebody who talks about they need to get out have creative funk and then they listen to something and then all of a sudden invigorates them We'll listen to some audio. Here's a clip of Jackie. Chang who is the editor in chief chief of the W Q x Our website and the former editor in chief of the wire cutter talking about her experience listening to Bach's Violin Sonata Number One. I just think that you know the the businesses are the emotional twists in this piece. I think those are the things that can lead us through with this story. That's being told pulse you pulls you along for Assad peacefulness that sometimes we all need when we need to take a breath just before starting to so the cool thing about the show is that you hear the person talking about the music for about four five minutes and then and they actually play the peace and it's usually just the movement so you know it's like three or four minutes of Costco Music at the end of this podcast so it's daily and it's short enough to consume daily so highly recommended commended open ears project. That's awesome yeah. It's great subscribe smashed that since classical music podcasts. What's what's your recommendation to recommendations this week. I'm a little late to the first one but I'm finally sucked into succession. Boy Succession is a series on HBO a scripted Drama Tragicomedy if you will it's based on it's based on the Murdoch family. I sure like folks in the Murdoch. Doc Family would deny that Murdoch's of Fox News those Murdoch's yes that the man who rules the world of news but it's about you know in aging aging media mogul who in the very beginning of the first season has a stroke and so it sends his adult children who are each uniquely terrible all in their own ways into spin over who's going to ultimately take control of this multinational media conglomerate and I just I cannot stop watching it. I'm almost caught up at this point because now since season two and it's great and I wonder what it says about my Saiki that I'm so into these characters yeah all right. That's the first one if you haven't watched it yet. Let me know and I'll give you my hbo wagon necessary on twitter threads and the message me on threads you having my close friend. I that's GONNA be problematic. Okay you know where to find me guys but really my. That's like that's sort of like. Let me just catch up here recommendation. My new recommendation is an episode of the Outside magazine podcasts. I'm pretty sure I've recommended outside magazine podcast before this one is titled getting past our fear of great white sharks and it's about sharks and it focuses a lot on the culture of sharks particularly around Cape Cod and Cape Cod. I learned so much about the history of Cape Cod. I mean I always knew it was like a fishing area. Cape Cod's like this little the little hook at the bottom of New England. That's part of Massachusetts for those of you who don't know I'm from the East Coast so I'm like Oh yeah. Keep proud of course but like I'm realizing a lot of people might the CA- okay the Cape Bryant and they're like all these like quing adorable towns on Cape Anyway. My brother lives up there and province town which is like the furthermost tip of Cape Cod so so yeah they've had a lot of shirk sightings and in fact one fatal attack in recent years and said that has sparked a lot of new found on passengers about sharks last year two people were attacked by sharks on Cape Cod and one died. The result has been a media frenzy that really you have have to see to believe but when you look past the headlines. The situation on the Cape is really a clash between these two stories. We tell ourselves about sharks. Is this about US learning to live with fear or is it about whether it's possible for us to get over our fear a lot out of it has to do with the fact that the population has rebounded for awhile seals. We're being called to help the fishing the fishing community and then back in the seventies. He's people stopped killing. The seals and the shirts came back anyway. It's fascinating of course it talks about jaws. The impact that jaws has had in our collective psyches in America around Shark's jaws happens to be my favorite movie of all time and I think you should listen to this episode a lot charters need no one to shirk NATO three out of four shallows What's that one about the couple that goes scuba diving on their honeymoon. They get left behind nine right there. What I think I've seen like every shark usually watch them on planes but like jaws is the best I and what's interesting is like so I mentioned my brother earlier who lives on the Cape and he and I both probably have seen John at least a dozen times in our lives because we were growing up like in in a decade or so after jaws had come out and it was very popular movie still and it just didn't affect me at the same effect Stanley. He is so terrified of sharks and whenever he comes to visit I'm like so you don't do you. WanNa try surfing. Let you want to go. He's like like hell no and I'm like no come on. It's great like you should totally go out on the water and he's like no and like I'm like I think about I. I definitely think about it but it's not has been something that's like stopped me from doing what I WANNA do in the water yet no. I'm probably just going to go get anybody shark but you'll be doing no I know but your chances of like your Chin I mean the podcast also talks about this your chances of getting hit by a shirker exceptionally low and even then your chances of dying are also pretty low. You might lose a foot. I mean yeah. Let's not underplay that it's a big deal but anyway. It's a great podcast episode. I thoroughly enjoyed it great great and that's outside magazine. Outside magazine. Just go to outside the only have one podcast. I think Oliver episodes in series within that are in the same feed. We should try that. We should change is going to go watch shark watching well. Thank you all for listening to the show in has always if you enjoyed what you heard please leave us a review and tell a friend leaving review and telling a friend helps other people who may enjoy the show find minded so we appreciate it if you do that and in the meantime until next week you can find us on twitter of course what are your handles. Arielle at Professor Tarik Gossip more at Lauren good with an e at the end send sharks and I am at snack fight. Send me cat photos you you can also talk to all of us at. Gadget lab which is the fee for the show and for all of us and for all of the great journalism that we do in consumer products world here at wired and until next week. Thank you for listening

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How Uber Went Down in Flames

Gadget Lab Podcast

47:47 min | 1 year ago

How Uber Went Down in Flames

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus p. h. To the wired world. It's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water water. That's pretty smart. Hi everyone. I'm michael ori- i'm an editor editor here wired and you are listening to the gadget lab the podcast where we talk about the latest gadgets apps and services that you need to know about and how they impact our lives i. I am joined this week by my co. Host wired senior writer lauren good. Hello is out this week. She speaking at tech festival in copenhagen in denmark. That's what it's called tech festival all one word <hes> if you're there say hello forests. She's not responding to my tweets. She's not. She tweeted that she has she staying hang there. She lives there now so i think we've lost her forever to copenhagen. Which is what we suspected might happen before she went. I guess we'll just have to go do a little road show and visit her a new home and where comfy sweaters and eat a lot of seafood. Yes she doesn't mean it's what's not laugh anyway but you will hear oreos oriole's voice in just a few minutes because she was here earlier when we all interviewed mike isaac for this week's show mike is a reporter who covers silicon valley for the new york times and if you haven't i heard about it yet. He has just released. A new book. Called super pumped the battle uber. It's all about uber. It's a fantastic read. I think everyone here in this room including arielle who's not here at the moment has read it so for me. I haven't finished yet but i'm working my way through it. It's really great. <hes> talks a lot about travis kalanick's and kerr campus apu richly conceived of the idea uber talks about their rise to really disrupting the transportation industry as we know it <hes> and ultimately the cultural issues is that lead to some pretty serious problems great book and we're gonna talk to mike all about it. It reads like a true crime book which is kinda neat like a page turner kind of thing <hes> <hes> it's out this week so you can actually order it now and mike is on a little book tour going around around the country <hes> it was especially fun for me to read because mike like isaac used to work here at wired and he used to be on this show he was one of the co hosts on the gadget lab back when the show was like video and and fifteen minutes long every week that's right warn. You also worked with mike. That's right in your career. I worked with mike at what was used to be called. All things d became became recode and when mike was here he said remember the time. I crush on your couch and neither of us. I don't think we ended up recording this part but neither of us remembered why we like it. Was that hurricane sandy why this is back in new york in two thousand twelve or something and i'm like a blizzard like we just we didn't know but maybe in his next book will get to the bottom of that but it was great seeing mike again. He's a great guy. He's a great writer and <hes> we're looking for chatting with him a little bit later but first we should probably get to the news. Yes let's do it. Why don't you go first. Learn okay so if you're familiar with sonos. It's a santa barbara based. I wi fi speaker company has joined the bluetooth party. Just yesterday a revealed the sonos move this is a new three hundred ninety nine dollars portable bluetooth speaker that it can also work on wifi networks like other sonos speakers do now. This is a big deal because it's so does his first bluetooth speaker for years and years. It has dismissed the whole all ideas bluetooth speakers c._e._o. Even call them stepping stones to higher fidelity audio products basically looking at things like amazon echo dot and google's little hole kamini and all that stuff in pooh-poohing them in saying now. We're better. We're higher quality. Those are just stepping stones but it turns out if you can't beat them. You should join them because the sonos move is a bluetooth speaker. It's not only expensive though for bluetooth speaker it's big it weighs over six and a half pounds. It's nearly ten inches tall and honestly i i. I used it briefly. It feels pretty hefty on twitter. Someone joked that they were going to use it as a kettle bell to which i replied it's the sonos <music> squat their next product. I'm obviously trying to create something that was physically big enough for big sound while also still being portable and it has this nifty built in handle on the back <hes> since c._e._o. Told me they thought other solutions for toting around speakers are quote unquote clergy <hes>. There's a couple of other news sonos. There's a sonos one cell sal. That's one hundred seventy nine dollars. It's an evolution of the sonos. One just doesn't have microphones. There's a sonos port. Which is an audio receiver. <hes> mike the sodas move is expensive expensive. Are you going to get one. You know i'm into it. Four hundred dollars is a lot to pay for a speaker. It's actually used to not be a lot to pay for sonos speaker occur because most of them were priced around the three four five hundred dollar range but now it is a lot to pay persona speaker because their most popular models are the ones that are two hundred dollars <hes> the the sonos one and the old play one and the differences the one has the microphones for <hes> the amazon assistant distant and the google assistant. I won't say my name <hes> because then it will set off people speakers in their homes but those have been really popular and i think that's sort of what people expect to pay for sona speaker now is that two hundred dollars and since this is twice as much money just because it moves around. I mean it. I'm curious to see how it sounds but <music>. I'm i'm into the idea of owning one just because in my own home i have a lot of sonos speakers but there are some places where cannot use sonos speakers. This would solve that data because i can just pick it up and carry it into those places so i like that about it. It's a smart design. It looks really cool. <hes> i'm into it well well. What else is going on. People are dating say after rolling out in other countries last year facebook dating launched in the u._s. This week doc now any facebook user. Who's eighteen or older can access a new set of features that are designed to help them find love or just a meaningful relationship of some duration with another human on facebook and really whatever you're looking for is their people have been using facebook to scope out potential love interest for years but facebook dating offers a few new do things specifically for dating you get a specialized profile that separate from your facebook profile plus the option to either show or hydra dating profile people in your network so if you only want to date people with whom you share a connection sort of like unhinge you can do that or if you wanna block out all those people and just cruise for for total strangers. You can do that too. <hes> there's no swiping in the facebook dating experience instead the system relies on the events that you attend the locations that you frequent and other signals of shared interest and that's what it uses to show you matches. This is where facebook has an edge over the very crowded dating app field. The company already knows more about oh you then tinder or bumble ever will so it's destined to be pretty solid matchmaker. I think what happens if you're one of those people who just gave up on your facebook account within the past couple of years. You're not giving as much as you or at least you think you're not since we know data. Pull data's pulled from a lot of different sources. Is it still have that kind of advantage. I think it does because <hes> with you know with respect to the data that it knows about you it can even so it will match you with people who have shared interests with you if you we did a lot of posting on facebook like five years ago and you liked bands and you'd liked events and you posted photos from specific events that you attended ended. It'll even go back in like match you with people who were there at those things or people who've also liked those bands even if they've only like recently or people who've also seen those bands in concert even even if it was just last week so you'll still get shared interest aspect <hes> with regards to other data that might be going into it. You can put <hes> instagram photos news of yourself that you think are <hes> very good. Instagram photos of yourself and you can attach those to your facebook dating profile as well so it can pull from your other facebook owned platforms and sort of build a profile using all of that stuff so yeah. I think that advantage is still there for facebook fascinating. <hes> i find it fascinating. How facebook is taking some of the things that we typically just do on facebook anyway categorizing them or vertical izing them because it's a repackaging of the data they already have as more and more people move away from the what's known as the big blue facebook experience. We've seen this video right like facebook is a giant ryan platform for video but now that's called watch and facebook has always been a way for people to check each other out and scope out the goods and hook up and now it's dating wonder what's coming next one quick thing before we move on about that in particular they have <hes> facebook has integrated integrated messenger into the dating experience so if you're going on a date with someone and you wanna let a friend know who you're going to be with where you're going and when you're expected to be back you can do automatically through facebook messenger from facebook dating. Oh okay so that step that happens law times when people say let's. Let's get off hinging go to messaging. Let's let's go totally correal messaging. Now you just go to messenger crafty yup all right. I wouldn't know i'm never dating again. Should we get get to make and talk about uber. Let's let's do it. Support for this. Podcast comes from smartwater smart water is proud to share stories of people who everything and anything to get their ideas out into the world inspired by fresh thinkers smart water has more ways to stay hydrated smart water alkaline with nine plus ph when you work up a sweat doing what you love and smart water antioxidant with added selenium hydration with your body and mind and in mind smart water. That's pretty smart. I am super pumped to be introducing guest this week new york times reporter mike isaac. It's pretty much impossible. Not to include super comes in the introduction. Sorry mike this is just going to be the thing going forward. That's because that is the title of mike's this your first i book this is my first book i book it's a riveting read about the rise of uber the ruthlessness of its founders particularly travis colonic it's total and utter or disruption of transportation around the world and all of the trouble. The company has gotten into throughout mike. Thanks so much for joining us on wired schedule podcasts. Thank you very much for having me. It's nice to be back back three or four years later. I was gonna say we all have a little bit of history with you here because you and i used to work together at all things d and recode and mike used to be mike's michael michael used to be mike's editor. I edited. Some of your stories wouldn't call him. My boss sufficiently but we did work together. We've always been a little loose weight title term but we were both on this show together for many episodes my favorite part about that was <hes> caloric as mom specifically specifically talking about how good we looked each each episode when it was on video and i miss that so shout out to my calories mom if you're listening. They both look great leaving the comments. Even though you can't see it okay so mike what was the moment for you because you've been covering uber for a while now. What was the moment at which you thought okay this suber story. This is a book. This isn't just a series of articles yeah <hes> so actually i had no exactly because it was. I was in so for for awhile ahead. I've been at the times moved in your times in two thousand fourteen <hes> that's when i started covering uber and at that point <hes> i had talked to some publishers about doing a book book but it was sort of not really the time and the narrative then was like would have been like look at this crazy company and how great it is and that's just not the type of book. I wanted to ride her that type of thing. I like doing so flash forward to twenty sixteen two thousand seventeen when like everything just sort of poops the bed for this company the and like the whole world starts coming down upon it and <hes> in june of two thousand seventeen i'm in l._a. This book i'm in l. a. and and this serve investor khoo starts happening against travis and i get involved in the going public part of it or like they may tell me they may not whatever <hes> and so this crazy thing happens and he pushed out of the company and <hes> that morning i get a call from the next morning. I ain't gonna call afternoons sleeping for like thirty six hours to get a call from agent says and he says like this is a book like the insane drama. This is all playing out in public like if this is not a book. I don't know what it is and that actually felt right so yeah at that point you know i was convinced and i wrote a book proposal in a weekend and we pitched it and it sort of kim together. The book is fantastic and we should just say it's as much a story of uber as a company as it is a story about travis kalanick's and his psyche psyche and it's also a story of this moment in the world where uber has sort of created this model that so many companies have have copied and the way that's affected not just technology but the global economy and how we fit into it as people i wonder sort of if you can set the stage for people who haven't read it it like we all have <hes> and just tell us a little bit about you know where where it begins right like you start actually well before uber exists is accompanied aimed sort of telling people about travis yeah i think i think there are a few things that i wanted to get a i mean later on in the company's history is very dramatic but i think the the the thing that we probably forget a little bit. Now is what things were like before everyone had an iphone and before like smartphones so common actually used to work at wired in in this very building and back in two thousand ten before hooper was really big. I would have to leave interview to go to interviews forty five minutes early because i wasn't sure a cab was gonna come down here and pick me up or not and mike and i have done many weird. I think we interviewed a blackberry executive together and like prayed to get there on time. Oh yeah i remember that the ill-fated tablets that i wrote about for you and it was really terrible so the story was great so the the one of the things i want to sort of get out in the book is the confluence influence of things that make it sorta very right circumstances fervor becoming uber ride and that that was you know this wealth of venture-capital pouring into the valley at that specific moment in time that was <hes> the rise of amazon web services would make which made it easy for startups to <hes> sort flourish <hes> with very little overhead and then you know maybe people have talked about the ability of the iphone and smartphones and and <hes> <hes> really these these three things that converge at once that made uber and calling connecting <hes> drivers and riders <hes> all over the world to to pick up riders possible then i think if if there were things before uber if you remember like what calculus taxi magic and all these things that are now dead or dying whatever <hes> but it just you know a lot of what they say about startups in successes just like lufkin can timing you know and even if you have the right the right product it might not at the right time and so i think uber was really lucky to hit <hes> when it did well you also i mentioned in the book that those apps nearly as words still targeting the existing taxi cab market so taking existing infrastructure and saying well these are still taxi cab driver pursue by medallions and they get licenses and then they're still driving with these like set fares whereas garrett camp the co founder of uber along with travis had this idea have like a luxury service in mind and so they they were dispatching black town cars to start a lot of i mean the thing again that we don't really recognize recognize now or i think the most people don't really notice now even early uber really wanted to work within the confines of the existing system right you know people that were licensed operators of black car services and and they never really thought about uber x the you know the free for all anyone can drive the thing until <hes> until later on until a few years of the company and the funny thing is that wasn't even uber that came up with it was lift that created while it was really sidecar car this now defunct startup and then lift sort of made it big and then uber decided. We're gonna get creamed if we don't go into this market so they sort of rolled out out ridesharing and anyone who has a car can kind of drive for us and did a little bit revisionist history. Now everyone thinks that birds made up the thing which they didn't but that'd be that'd become a theme of the risk ruthlessness of uber of just letting letting lift be kinda like snapchat got and facebook right you just let one smaller company beer incubator for ideas and then ripped them often laugh all the way to the bank that ruthlessness is just as important as the luck in the timing in the story of uber. There are so many great examples in the book of these insane but brilliant things that uber does to try and get a leg up on the competition or to try to outsmart regulators so there are all these examples of ways that <hes> they sort of like spy on lift to see what they're doing before they're doing it in these ways that they sort of blocked regulators regulators from having access to the real version of the apps of they don't think that they're doing what they're actually doing. That's incredible like do you have favorite. Perhaps favorite's not the right. Where do you have <hes> illegal activity. I mean there are just so many of these moments in the book. Are there ones that you sort of found particularly jaw-dropping or incredible when you think about a person in a company trying to get ahead yeah. You know it's funny one. The things i sort of wrestled with two is not everything they do. In in this book or even in just in building uber was necessarily illegal. I think think sometimes they in travis really was a specialist at finding the finding the line and then pushing to limit or in many cases walking right over walking a little bit over you know and so they would have i would be on the phone arguing with them on like if something was legal or or they had an interpretation the law that <hes> that that that made it not legal right or that made it that made it legal and so i think the <hes> <hes> my favorite sort of things they did was was just to build these automated programs to just slam regulators with a bunch of bullshit from people. My allowed to curse me <music>. Sorry <hes> so there was this one guy who created these. You know essentially push button things inside of the app that had people send automated emails to their local representatives that could just like or phone calls just saying we want uber over to come here <hes> one time in austin they they did this ridiculous thing where they hired a person to drive a stagecoach up and down the streets rates of like south congress and said like if if your local regulator gets their way this will be the fastest mode of transportation in austin and blah blah blah we went over here and at ended up backfiring because austin nights don't like big corporations coming and telling them what to do but i couldn't have predicted the rise of looters on mention but i think in two. I guess to be fair for them like look okay. If you're trying to fight and kinda get this in the book to if you're trying to fight a competitor and entrenched competitor that already is willing to play dirty and some other ways ways then maybe you have to sort of roll up your sleeves and do your own thing and in some pretty innovative ways to to push back doc against folks that are trying to keep you from entering so i don't know there i mean it's it's debatable. Whether some of these things were ethical or not or if if you if you believe uber's was acting ethically but some folks and a lot of folks have pushed back on the assumption that uber was bad company in some of these practices are just ways of making it. I think if you were to divide this book into two parts and there are many parts to it but if you look at uber over the past decade the first half is probably probably all about this tremendous growth rate. It's pre i._p._o. There's a lot of venture capital being thrown around then you have people like john dougher starting fund simply for apps for the app store. <hes> you talk about the rise of mobile you talk about the fact that travis dispatching anybody with any type of professional expertise whatsoever and two different markets and saying go build uber here in giving like people like this level of autonomy just to go spend money somewhere to reach critical mass offering drivers emotions. It's like expense ben spent and it's all about the business the ruthlessness of the business and then you get to like twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen till now so the latter half of this this saga when all of the culture that's been established at the ground level catches up tuber. What do you i mean. There's so much. There's like the party in vegas. There's the susan fowler fowler story like what was the moment when uber's culture really caught up to. I think this is something that it's weird. I oh i think i even have this problem too <hes> but i think when you are a small startup you look at yourself in a way that everyone is rooting against you and you sort. I don't have to do what it takes to make things work and to grow you grow or you die right at some point and i think this is true facebook. I think is true a lot of a lot of companies but at some point you are not a scrappy startup anymore. You're the biggest person in the room right. You're the you are the goliath and not the david and so so i think a lot i think some founders have a hard time internalizing that and still feel like were were. We're the small guy. We're just a startup. Weep and travis was in particular always wanted it to feel like a start up. He didn't want it to feel like you. Fucking we're at cisco now and like you you don't wanna go to work and and do this sort of boring tech job bob and and be put out to pasture like he wants that sort of energy and i don't think uber was able to realize that i think i think they continue to operate in this mode of scrapping and fighting for every inch long after they kind of had i wanna say one but were winning you know and it's sort of like maybe spiking the ball too hard after after they didn't need to and i think the best ceos and i say this with travis to the best ceos know i know how to grow and change with the company depending on where it's at right and and i don't think travis was ever able to do that. I think he they had one mode and and could only operate on that mode in every every part of his business and <hes> that's something i think a lot about like if few is able to change. Would he still be at the top if he was able to like changed the way he he approached uber was. Would he be able like could he be like all right. Our culture was one way now and now we need to switch into a different mode and now we need to create actual h._r. Systems that <hes> that a big <unk> company has right and things that sort of professionalize what the company is supposed to be <hes> maybe that would have saved a lot of pain and maybe he wouldn't have gotten kicked out of his his own company so as you mentioned earlier that that moment came in twenty seventeen have things gotten any better there since then yeah i mean there's this okay so the c._e._o. Now is <hes> dara cosby show he a like silicon valley's allie's dad who is a washington post a article wrote about him as dad of silicon valley and i thought it was funny but he's he's. He's basically just been apologizing for the past two years about how messed up uber is an and like we are doing the right thing. Period and sort of this is our way to a change. I think <hes> i think they have gotten better in in a few specific ways o._g. Uber people have cycled out <hes>. I just got a tip the other day that a lot of the problematic folks that <hes> the original uber are starting to go over to lime which is why they're kind of gnarly inside. I i probably shouldn't tell you that but which is why they're kind of like gnarly right now so so that's an interesting story i wanna go figure out what's going on there but <hes> so like they have like a new fresh crop of folks that are inside of uber now and trying to you know whatever i think also like some folks are so traumatized on having like the entire world hate your company for an entire year that there probably being held to a higher standard now and i don't think that it's worth just just whipping them for life. I think companies are able to change and stuff. Browse think it's really hard when you have a certain type of d._n._a. In a certain type of culture to change that in the long run so what we two years into dhara dhara just <hes> became c._e._o. Two years ago this week actually and i think it'll it'll probably take longer to figure out especially after the lock-up <hes> after the i._p._o. When people are able to sell their shares there's probably going to be more churn and more new people coming in and so it'll change and things have changed but <hes> it takes a while at the same time in the decade. That uber has existed. It's completely changed the way we understand technology right like it's it's a company that has on the one hand failed dramatically on a cultural but also succeeded dramatically in the sense that it's hard to even imagine a world without uber and because of that i always find it really striking that the company's still lose so much money. How is that possible <hes> no. That's a great point. I think something i was thinking about the other day. So uber was coming up. It was basically the only ride hailing game in town that was international and didn't have many competitors <hes> initially abroad like they were fighting against taxi industry that if everything he had stayed the same in that regard it would have been they probably would have been in much better shape right now now. The landscape has dramatically changed. They have competitors on pretty pretty much every major continent in which they operate <hes> softbank has completely screwed up how funding works not even just beyond uber like for every company and they have have you know this initial hundred billion dollar venture fund that they're sinking billions of dollars into companies to <hes> hope that their bets pan out and so that it just messes with economics and the amount of money startups are willing to burn in order to grow and softbank is not only investor in uber but investing testing in competitor uber so it's like this weird dynamic where they're putting their children against each other to eat them alive and so so a lot of that growth initial show growth is topping out i think but now you have a new category which is food delivery and i think food delivery is now where we were maybe five years ago with <hes> ride hailing and that the early stuff was a ton of subsidizing rides and now i think food deliveries being subsidized like crazy a lot more money is going into that and they see all their future growth there but it's constant thing of of buying growth and kicking profitability down the road and that's where they keep saying and now they're getting closer to closing that profitability gap in rides and ride hailing is what dr said on the last year earnings call but they're they're saying it's gonna a. b. longer because of how much spending on food delivery so i don't know i feel like there's always a thing that you can point to saying we gotta spend to get here and i feel like that was amazon's playbook for very long time and and they like companion amazon because everyone loves amazon but like a lot of their well everyone's on wall street st louis amazon. Let me say that <hes> everyone. Every traitor loves amazon <hes> but i don't know like the big question. Mark is does this fundamentally work as business snus when you're not you know in an ideal environment and is that i- environment gonna be ideal or are you going to constantly be fighting off new entrance <hes> and that's the weird sort of dichotomy of looking at uber versus lift which is very which is much smaller doesn't compete in zillion different markets or whatever is just. It's in the u._s. and is actually trading better <hes> the newburgh for that reason so search weird. It's a weird dynamic and which companies more valuable or which one is gonna be larger and more successful in the future if two questions about travis so the first is what does travis doing now because i'm going to go go ahead and assume that he's not working as a venture capitalist much he loves venture capitalist and to <hes> did he participate in this book in any way <hes> <hes> heinsohn second. I did not <hes> <hes> we went to everyone. I named the book and talk we give people a chance to comment anti it had hired fact checker and a researcher to do to go through this because it's not a pretty book for a lot of people and <hes> i. I just want to make sure i'm fair and accurate but no <hes> he did not participated in this book to be written probably <hes> right now. He you know the the the interesting thing now is he's. He was the one that actually invented ubereats inside uber and he was a big proponent of that outline business before he got pushed out and folks on the board including bill gurley one of the the character in the book that becomes the sort sort of defacto hero fighting travis. <hes> was against this idea of building another money-losing line of business travis. I think feels vindicated now for like growing this huge category that now a lot of money's going into so his whole thing now. I wrote a story kind of on this the other day. I think he has written about it before. Too is is things cloud kitchens which is basically repurposing crappy real estate to to build like meal. You'll preparation areas that exists for servicing restaurants that exist only inside of delivery apps travis's ideas a little bit different different than the spriggs or what countries or whatever those things i think david chang had something called maple <hes> all of which i think failed but <hes> travis's thing is virtual restaurants restaurants that only exist as choices inside of delivery absolutely breeds so it's actually kind of an ingenious play to remove the retail storefront front part of a restaurant to remove that overhead and is becoming more popular. I think he's got to deal with sweet green right now and he's but he's doing the opposite. He's he's were at with uber. He was very public facing and and wanted to be out there. He's kind of gone underground and is doing this other thing in secret so it's probably a better idea for him at this point interesting so as as rapidly and as widely as uber was able to grow <hes> one one place where they didn't find any success was china. So what is it about china. That uber was unable to crack totally that's <hes> i think another thing i talked about in the book is like china's like the white whale for every tech c._e._o. In california and silicon valley. I think you know there's there's a billion people blair. That's so much like so many potential users that folks i with like their mouth. Watering cabrera glading suggested naming his first born child after after no he asked the president of china to name his firstborn child. I think this was back. When zach doc was still trying to get facebook into china <hes> travis thought he had cracked it he <hes> sort of tried to ingratiate himself with the chinese government he he kept saying you know kept trying to lake schmooze. I think he thought he made more progress with them than he actually did. You know they have a very nationalistic sense of who's going to be the winner in any given category in china and so they had already <hes> preordained d._d. The chinese ride hailing app <hes> <hes> the other thing was the insane amount of fraud going on in china. <hes> in there's ride hailing services like burned through money at rates. That was just crazy right so <hes> i'm pretty sure at one point a few sources i talked to you said that about half of all rides and a few in a number of cities in china were completely fraudulent at one point and they spent about two billion dollars over the course of a year or two. I think so imagine investors sort of putting money towards this idea that they're expanding in china and all that money just being vaporized instantly and going to fraudster so a lot of their efforts were kind of in vain at some and then at some point the board was like we are losing being an insane amount of money on project that i don't think you're going to get any real traction and so we need to bail it out and <hes> to their credit. They made the steel travis and emil michael his c._o._o. Her chief business officer some made up title they made this deal with didi the predominant predominant ride hailing company there where they gave uber a stake in didi for the rest of their business and they ended up having some percentage of deedee stock and and and it has risen in value since so one could argue that they that they were able to bail themselves out <hes> at least in day mount of equity that they have <hes>. Let's take a quick break and they'll come back with more with mike. Isaac author of super pumped so with all these the ride hailing apps out there. We'll taxis begun anytime soon. <hes> you know it's funny. I think we all live in san francisco and we have an idea of what we think. The future feature looks like but you know i went to athens a few weeks ago <hes> georgia or greece athens greece and and then some of the isles als in greece and there's a lot of parts of the world that doesn't have uber and that have still very strong taxi unions and protect protect themselves themselves essentially from this and an uber has retreated on some of these fronts just because <hes> anything from his too expensive to fight to it can be violent or even dangerous to to fight some of these insurance competitors so i don't think it's going away. I think in like a lot of the a lot of places in the u._s. You probably going to z. Ride hailing be more prevalent if not already there but i think we do have sort of far off version of future in our in our minds just because by virtuous living here but it's big world a lot of a lot of <hes> taxi unions are still super strong and i don't think he's going anywhere anytime soon. One of the things you know in the book is in early on the book <hes> like within the first hundred pages china because that's as far as i've gotten allies finished at a fly through it i just i could only get through so much to weekend both finished. I you guys had the book. I everyone at wired was super pumped to get the galleys. Yeah i got it lasts so okay but mike i really did give up my weekend reading for you yeah and but as happy to do it and one of the things that you talked about early on the book is this this whole idea that really a lot of silicon valley spawned from <hes> this this idea of counterculture sort of fighting the man and entrepreneurs <hes> taking like stake in their own companies and then sort of creating this libertarian playground for folks but now like in the modern internet you look at some of these leaders who <hes> have have effectively wrestled and maintain control over their multibillion dollar companies through things like dual class stock structures and just having loads foods of money <hes> then now. They've created this new sort of <hes>. I don't know this. I don't even call it meritocracy of silicon valley uh their their own man there the man they were fighting against <hes> talk about how uber is really sort of emblematic of that and how it fits into the broader silicon valley culture right now. It's really funny. One of travis's <hes> fourteen values fourteen protesting values he one of them was like let let the best ideas win rate and what they thought was a true meritocracy anyone inside an uber could give a good idea and rise to the top and i think that's largely just prevent you know like a lot of the employees i talked to said. Only you know it was the best idea but only certain people could give the best idea and really the people in power the ones making the decisions and look. I think what's fascinating to me is how we are in. I mean we're in san francisco right. We're in the bay area where were the home of protests and counter cultural movements and hippies and let everything be free and it's now like emblematic of this new wave of capitalism capitalism where the the ceos of some of the most powerful companies in the world are unable to be removed from their seats because of how they've <unk> structured voting in in in how people are able to like <hes> like if you're a shareholder in any one of these companies. You shouldn't delude yourself that to think that you have a vote or say in how it's going to go mark zuckerberg. <hes> still has a seat at the top of his company even though he arguably ruined the world if you believe a lot of facebook detractors evan spiegel is not going anywhere he also has a similar structure larry sergey still same sort of dual clash knock structure so folks talk a- big game about democratization of technology and we're going to change everything but it's just people people in power wanting to stay in power and that's like the story of every great civilization every great company you know it's folks and then people realized realized that once they're at the top daylight being at the top so <hes> maybe my book kind of ends on his cynical note but but one thing i think that <hes> <hes> i do wanna say something really nice. I was at like a conference awhile ago talking to <hes> a kelly who is coming out of school and and and wanted to go into tech specifically to change some of the cultural issues that he has seen in the past five years of criticism or two years of criticism in tech and so you know he he wanted to empower people color and women and different things and working on a i like having different types of voices and people programming these things so we can fight against implicit bias. I think there's gonna be a wave of folks who wanna go into tech but try to do do it differently than than has been done before you know then then like white males building you know huge corporations that primarily exists to serve white males if that makes sense and i think that's hopeful you know i think it's it's it's a different way of looking at how we should build things and taking into account like a fuller version of who uses these products in the future so it's not totally cynical. At least i look forward to get into the non cynical party the which i will do next weekend. I promise you my next weekend and then i'll pass it along to someone else wired. Who's super pumped to. We won't spoil l. e. ending for you. I think i know what happened. Well mike thanks for coming back onto the show. Hey thanks for having me. Tell your mom i said hi. They said that they would get punched in the face but coming from you and knowing the context i will tell her you said of course thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me okay before we get to recommendations lauren. Why don't you tell us what we're going to be talking about on next. Week's show because it's a big one. Is there an event happening next week there is there is an apple event happening on tuesday of next week in cupertino california. You're going to be there. I think i'll be there tom simon it will be there. We'll have other people on the ground. We'll have editors monitoring remotely. We'll have all the news that you need to know but this is the big annual hardware event and so you can at least least expect to see things like a new iphone possibly more than one a new apple watch some announcements around services which is growing part of apple's business and a lot of typical apple fanfare. I think awesome so next week. Shows just all going to be apple probably because there's probably going to be enough stuff to talk about well in the tech world. You never never know what's going to happen. Michael just jinxed it probably but yeah it's a safe bet. We're gonna be talking a lot about apple's so tune awesome so let's do recommendations. Why don't you go. I so my recommendation. This week is a skateboard movie. Now it's unlike what you may think of as a skateboard movie when you think about a skateboard movie <hes> it's not like a you know v._h._s. Style you know our long thing with a bunch of different skaters in it and hip hop music playing in the background. It's more like a weird avant-garde poem of a movie. It's called ye olde destruction or yod or y. O. d. it goes by oh those his name's and it's by a guy named thomas campbell thomas campbell. <hes> is an artist visual artist. He's been working in film and painting and sculpture for years years and years <hes> this is i <hes> big skateboard movie. Previously he's done surf movies so he did movie called sprout which is one of my all time favorite surf movies movies <hes> all on sixteen millimeter and this is a skateboard movie. That's mostly on sixteen millimeter. There's like a couple of drone shots in a couple of gopro shots but mostly sixteen millimeter all in black and white absolutely no dialogue. It's one hour long and the soundtrack. The score is the only thing you here here in the movie and it's done by no age band no age which is like a weird abrasive sort of post punk duo. It's drums and guitar so it's a very avant-garde score. It's a very abrasive movie but it's also fun and poetic medic and filled with joy like everybody in the movies laughing all the time <hes>. Would you say it's like an endless summer for skateboarding not really <hes> i mean it's it's more like it's more like lingerie for skateboarding anything else. It's just it's really hard to describe what it is because it's so incompatible parable i mean it is a skateboarding movie. It's our people skateboarding and building ramps like out in the middle of the desert. <hes> there's a lot of construction in the movie which is funny because it's called ye olde destruction auction but <hes> it's just sort of a celebration of the d._i._y. Energy in the escape movement right now and as somebody who lived the whole first path of his life on a skateboard <hes> it was a joy to watch. It's in theaters right now so you have to see it in theaters. If you see it in theaters you'll either see it with the original score or ah. It's he also provides the option of turning the sound off and having a band score at live during the show cool <hes> and then later on this year. There's a possibility that that it's gonna be <hes> out on various streaming services <hes> i know he he doesn't really stream stuff now but he was talking at the screenings talking about putting stuff up on streaming services later so <hes> we might mike to see it online but for now it's in theaters associate in theaters. You're old destruction by thomas campbell lauren. What is your recommendation recommendation. I have to this week because we had a long weekend over labor day weekend and i was able to consume things nice yeah. This is why i think think we should have forty weeks every week. What did you consume area unsold consumed. One of my recommendations is the bay curious podcast. It's a segment that is produced by k. Q. e. d. and you can listen to the bay curious segments as standalone <hes> little dispatches in the bay curious podcast past <hes> and i was specifically in to the episode that they did in partnership with the san francisco chronicle on a project about homelessness listlessness not long ago and <hes> so i believe there were four questions whistle to the format of the bay curious podcast is that they always answer a question that somebody sends in and it could be something like why are there so many palm trees in the bay area or did dutch crunch bread origine here or why bars close early in san francisco wise traffic so bad the things like that and so in this particular episode audrey cooper from the san francisco chronicle joined and she helped answer for different questions about the homelessness crisis really that we have here in the bay area and i found it really fascinating and really worth listen and my second recommendation is the norman fucking rockwell album by lana del rey. I i just want to recommend it because it's so fun to say the shoes at the apple event last year last fall. She sang a track from it and you know they're all leg norman rockwell aww just say fucking in fucking well so here we go. I think you should listen to it. It's fantastic all right sold yeah well. That's it for this week. <hes> thank you all for listening. If you enjoy the show please leave us a review. We love hearing your feedback and also it helps people find the show the more reviews that we have so please continue to to do that and you can also reach out to us on twitter lauren. How can people find you on twitter at lower. Good the end and i am at snack fight. That's right and arielle is at par teric eric even though she's not here say four and mike isaac is at mike isaac. I think he's sherman berry. You can't miss him. He loves your tweets and <music>. Thanks again to boone and peter for engineering this week show and we will be back next week. Let's let's talk about apple <music> <music> <music>.

mike isaac facebook travis kalanick amazon sonos china twitter apple new york times writer arielle google san francisco editor reporter mark zuckerberg skateboarding california copenhagen Smartwater
Facial Recognition Tech Is Coming to a School Near You

Gadget Lab Podcast

32:08 min | 1 year ago

Facial Recognition Tech Is Coming to a School Near You

"Smartwater is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline with nine plus P. H. to the wired world it's water designed perfectly for your daily routine smart water that's pretty smart different history from the ones we've learned before but credit to mark Zuckerberg free speech is an issue where Silicon Valley has turned approach towards freedom of speech changed so about ten years ago was the Arab spring and with this moment when everybody thought that Silicon Valley was it'd be fun to bring him on the podcast today and he sitting across the table from me right now Hynek who learn how are you I'm good I should apologize to the listeners from the get-go I'm sorry it's a brand new story in wired about facial recognition technology in schools so let's get right to it facebook. CEO Mark Zuckerberg is doing a livestream on Thursday quite as much as that the defense was kind of uninteresting formulaic and it seemed at times like what he was doing was just four throated defense of free speech and a kind of recasting of facebook history as though it was created as a tool abused distract manipulate elections published misinformation so the last few years there's been a real move to change that absolutism and you've seen everything from which he said would be his most comprehensive take quote unquote on freedom of speech to date and this is happening Azra taping so this is kind of our live reaction Awesome Valley has changed dramatically so today Zuckerberg has done something bold and noble and said I'm going to defend this ancient principle then the thing that I didn't and headquarters and I was chatting with our editor in chief Nick Thompson who is based in this office when he's not running marathons in Chicago or visiting us in San Francisco so I thought to allow people to have the kind of conversations that could have prevented the Iraq war which was something ongoing when the site was founded and it's an ad on facebook hammered Zuckerberg about it and so he's getting a lot of heat for following principles of free speech and allowing people say what they want much tighter rules crackdown can be sat on platforms to artificial intelligence systems that automatically search for certain kinds of comments and wipe them off so the general loss announced earlier this week which is part of the women town after that will dig into the public address that Mark Zuckerberg gave just minutes ago which nick has been following and finally will you're listening to wired gadget lab podcast usually I'm joined by rl says and Michael Laurie but today we're doing something a little bit different I'm in New York City this week at wired's east coast office it's one hundred and eighty degrees over the last say five years and he's going out there and defending it unpack that a little bit how has come valleys Wha- what is the impetus for this right now I assume the impetus is the debate that's going on about whether you can post misleading ads on facebook packing in a defensive facebook on every major issue where it has tension into this argument about free speech right why did he decide to do this today on referee what is true what is not true who can say what goes up stays down the more they have to be that referee the harder in the other direction right they are starting to filter more censor more I think you can probably draw a continuum Berg is trying to suppose minimize the risks to his company's trying to minimize the odds that he alienates the right there's been a readjustment the trade off is that freedom of speech is often conflicting with safety if you allow people to say whatever he want they will often you know as it exists as a platform for speech but he's also preempting what maybe people are anticipating going to be a pretty feisty election season it is going to be a lot easier for facebook if they can just allow all the politicians to say what they WANNA say in a facebook has to get in the middle and you speak for my heart about free speech and they decided the latter so it sounds like in some ways he is trying to recreate the history of facebook and as is an important point which is that a defensive free speech and the argument that you're going to allow things to stay up even if they're false is effectively got it that way yes one could look at it that way how does this approach differ from what twitter is currently doing I think the twitter has job becomes an facebook is in a situation where no matter what they do they will get hammered that is just the public moment that facebook is in right now and the Senate the courts executive branch to crack down on you and so it is true that Zuckerberg believes wholeheartedly in free in this place that would allow for uncensored conversations that could bring about democracy and it's not just something from two thousand nine it's also something people believed in nineteen thousand nine the downgrade from Mike and Arielle well we'll consider it an upgrade for today so thank you for joining us thanks for having me we've a few things we want to get to today we're going to talk about everything google sure to wire dot com later where we will have more of a full story of Nick you've been monitoring this so far what has Eggert said he's gone out there and he began with a and I think he's had a conversation and said should we fight a one off should we try to defend this particular post and talk about the rules categorization or should I just go out there so donald trump had a misleading at about Joe Biden everybody wanted facebook to take it down second Burke said no was with Warren then posted an intentionally misleading of the different platforms and their takes on this issue like the least free speech is probably instagram right which was the place that I built these algorithms filters to knock it muller philosophy in that they leaned towards free speech but what's interesting about twitter is that they are very much going it is also true that this position aligns better with people who have power right now so it's also true that this position could be seen as a little bit convenient if you wanted to look in the past couple of weeks that Mark Zuckerberg has made something of a public address so shortly after the verge published audio that was leaked by someone at facebook is really good at product management he's not that good at public events he's gotten much better but it's not his strength to a a way of saying we will donald trump post what he wants to post and that is a good position to take if you attack because you do not want the Republicans who control Washington away unkind commentary and Pinterest your point is well right Pinterest instagram facebook has sort of been in the middle and twitter I always thought of the most but the question of why he wants to make a public address on free speech is a hard one and I can imagine a lot of debate inside of the facebook calms key free speech one so now maybe twitter and facebook are gonNA pass each other on this continuous facebook moves towards openness and twitter closes down a few things this also happens to be the second time chance to edit it there's a little less odds are a little bit lower that something will go wrong as Mico though of course the irony for speech about free speech is that nobody's they're asking some internal meetings they'd had last summer this past summer soccer bird decided that at the next employee meeting he was just going to make public any livestream what on Tuesday Google had an event in New York City to unveil its new pixel for smartphone. This is Google's answer to high end phones like the iphone and Samsung phones and even though the Pixel that actually is one of my favorite features now we are going to be publishing a full review of this early next week so you're going to have to come back to get our full assessment great when you're hit with bad news just like legal made into it right don't dodge don't be evasive I thought it worked for Bezos with the national enquirer and it were a six to eight thousand word screed about this now he's saying I'm just GonNa just GonNa put it out there yeah he might he might one of his annual letters which gives you a little more unlock nick let's get right into it would you get this new pixel phone I was pretty excited I mean all I know is your review your review made it sound pretty good Eddie that'd be some people who say better for us if he gets out there people just knew the real mark and they believe this people understood the real mark they wouldn't think of him as the monstrous me in questions like there's not a gaggle of reporters you can ask him whatever they want their carefully scripted questions come from students right or carefully vetted questions we'll be sure to monitor this what can we make of Zuckerberg's wanting to interface with the public in these ways I think it's a to to kind of different examples so the first example that was kind of like the Jeff Bezos News mark that is the public perception and that is has some truth to it on the other hand is not that good at this he's really good at certain things LG or HTC which ended up acquiring or Samsung to make things like the next set top box the next handsets and that sort of thing but I think it's some point along the way they probably realized that they were sacrificing some element of control over how their software actually worked when they had these burzaco burke where all this started out in the verge and he said fine here's a link to the transcript and I'm going to be open and it seemed like Jitsu move us the strength of your opponent to yourself doc Philisophical about big ideas in front of a crowd you can imagine a bunch of people in the face but comms department senile no mark maybe maybe you don't want to and like I said we'll have a full story on wired dot com later today so the time you listen to this podcast you're going to want to go to our website check it out let's move onto google I used an alarm clock being able to put my hand over it to make the alarm stop bringing those are pretty cool and I love the auto audio transcription services built into it went there may or may not be an embargo on the review periods like be careful what I talk about here however this new audio transcription thing I mean it's great it's great for journalists I've of its Pixel and having the Pixel presume doesn't make Samsung happy and you run some risk of catastrophic privacy problem right free speech was famously referred to as the free speech wing of the Free Speech Party and people in Silicon Valley for the most part were close to free speech absolutists over the last five years try to match Alexander Hamilton here but for whatever reason he's doing it he's out there yeah it feels like in the past sucker written uh-huh that are uncovered in your pixel phone or extra risk of antitrust violations I mean it's just a tricky thing to do but I suppose ownerships manufacturing partnerships because if you think about it if you get another android phone even a high end one you have to sort of confront that manufacturers skin it's a really good question so google has been making hardware in some capacity for a while but in the past they had more explicit partnerships they would work with it is really nice phone though now I did have the opportunity to use this motion sense gesture control which I know you also talked about in your with your other video series head well wasn't early right up we haven't published are full review yet I know but I trust you and I was taken by both the basic efficiency and all the little things optimal expression of android that exists starts at seven ninety nine and has a better camera new motion sense gesture controls which I know nick is going to want to talk about and face on Berlin has only been around for a few years Google only has a sliver of the smartphone market these new phones are typically considered very good phones you might even call it the most next one magically starts playing when I tried it after the events during the hands on period that we typically get after these kinds of things isn't always work I've actually sort of pulled in ency to your life in the next year perhaps the next two years but five years from now we might be making all kinds of gestures we might be and this is another thing that goes back to fifteen than fifteen percent then if I'm one of those partners I start spending a lot more time trying to think about building my own operating system Hi everyone I'm lauren good senior writer at wired it's handsets at a much higher volume and be much more critical player in this market it almost benefits them away to still stay and there's a Samsung skin over android on high end Samsung Samsung phone there is a one plus software skin it exists over android on a one plus phone is Google making this phone well maybe it doesn't make real financial or business sense at this point in time but the radars that they put in the phone in order to make this happen because they've decided to do it for the reasons you said and actually it seems like it's working I think that you bring up a great point which is that in some ways as much as Google probably wants to sell on and by as you mentioned the gesture controls and the idea that I can wave my hand and make a phone call go away or if I use alarm clock which I don't because I have children if I think they have in a single digit percentage of the total smartphone market worldwide that's probably like I don't even know it's probably less than two percent of the market I haven't checked the latest data but it's record phone calls this week as I'm conducting interviews and it's it transcribes everything to text right away and it just stores it in my cloud I have a question for you why does Google make phones apps all over the place and the phone and I think Google at some point probably realized I mean look at the end the dayquil makes all of its money off of advertising from you being an IT service so we haven't seen yet how useful this is actually going to be my expectation is that it's going to be really fun to us it's going to be great to experiment with it's going to bring no official says online how can it give people the best you know sort of sampling of its services when you're connected on mobile and the way to do that is probably just to build your own hands interesting things most interesting thing intact right so everybody should go check that out it's on next facebook it's unlinked in and I saw you talking about this so so of course when they show this demos it's just it probably benefits them in some way also to still maintain that small share because they have somebody critical partnerships with other manufacturers around the World Roy once they go on and on and on and then when you think about the partnerships they have carriers the carriers often especially in the United States that just wondering all this crap where essentially crap where all their own it's magical there's great thing where your alarm goes off in the morning and instead of having to reach over and fumble for the phone touch it you can just put your hand over at Hover it and say this is the purest version of android gap right and the disadvantage would be presumably lose a lot of money on their hardware division particularly on the phone part of their hardware division they buy get up in other parts you presumably alienate some of the partners Ragu will make more money if they can get android onto the whole Samsung Line of phones then it's GonNa make off a handover it and it silences the alarm goes don't worry goes into snooze by default and then you're listening to spotify you're tired of the songs just kind of wave your hand and the grew Google product manager and said hey this isn't working and then he and I went through a bunch of times and then eventually got to work and You know I was making jokes about like how many hands have you actually doing this on because maybe it's my hand I don't know but you know it's not perfect yet and I think there's also a behavior change that comes with these kinds of things wants to ship these kinds of miniature metro radars and a mobile handset so it also gives us the opportunity to experiment with things like this but that is exactly a large actually came out of a tap their skunkworks lab and they had been working on this for five years it's called project solely and so and I think they have said they're the first one it is complicated it is messy and I maybe have the unpopular position that it might be good talk about that able to identify people of different races than is just a disaster and you shouldn't have it but if you assume that it works then their lots of Ellen tear they don't like very much it's crazy story for the story Tom and Greg identified eight public school systems across the United States in places that ranged from rural areas dot com slash gadget that's Z. E. R. dot com slash gadget for your free fourteen day trial a new report in wired this week from our colleagues benefits that could come from right so making sure the kids are actually in school right as a parent who has children who it has more ways to stay hydrated smart water alkaline with nine plus Ph from when you work up a sweat doing what you love and smart water antioxidant with added selenium it comes from smartwater smart water is proud to share stories of people who do everything and anything to get their ideas out into the world inspired by fresh thinkers smart water so obviously you have to start with the supposition that the facial recognition works because if it makes lots of errors or it's unable to identify women or hydration with your body and mind in mind smart water that's pretty smart if you're running your own business stop for a moment and think about all the hours being tasks is exactly what Zappia was bill to do just go to our special link Zappia dot com slash gadget connect the apps you use the most and let's appier take it from there send notifications to your team so they never miss an opportunity and that's just scratching the surface Zappia supports more than fifteen hundred business applications so the possibilities are virtually the school there is this moment of the hand off where you watch your child go inside the school and the next GonNa see them at three o'clock three thirty and spend moving information from one service to another or from your desktop to the cloud and back again all that software doesn't work together seamlessly so you have to do a lot of manual work to get the different can really quickly move into murky territory as schools are using it to enforce other rules or just keep a watchful eye on students or in some cases keep a watch fly on APPS and services sharing data well not anymore thanks to Zap your Zappia the easiest way to automate your work it connects all the various software applications. Tom Simon I and Greg Barber tells us how facial recognition systems are starting to appear more in public schools and how this technologies usefulness as a potential safety tool buddy with some weird side project jam it into the phone and because there's no revenue at stake the company just accepting it and the phone become an a monster and that's not what's a giant urban centers and the schools are now using facial recognition technology. Nick what are your thoughts on this story is this just inevitable it is inevitable Louis Best of all it's easy to build the exact solution you need and just minutes without writing code or asking a developer for help no more wasting your time on tasks that you know could be automated because automate join more than four point five million people who were saving an average of forty hours per month by using Ophir right now through November tries appier free by going to our special link Zap you worry that the leave the school or something will happen in the school right it's hard to have the child outside of your circle of protection and so the school has set up all kinds of happened so shout out to whoever Google has rejected all the terrible products varies people. Google wanted to jam into that thing all right we're gonNA take a quick break but when if I could possibly if used sensibly by the school at some extra protection because you would know if a kid leads who's left services you use to manage your business and handles the heavy lifting for you so you can focus on the things that matter the most Zap your lets you instantly engage with customers share files that people automatically and cool shootings any tool that can prevent even one of those has done a huge amount of public good now or if somebody who shouldn't be at the school has come in you know who that is or if someone has picked up your kid at pickup you know officials the Police Department there will be stories about them using it to stock there will be stories about them using it to manipulate people as opposed to make it personal to say to me my kids school is implementing facial recognition technology and we come back nick and I are going to talk about facial recognition technology in school soon support for this podcast oh who that is maybe it's somebody who shouldn't have picked up your kid so there's real benefits that can come from it and of course in a country with a plague things to make sure that the kids are safe right and they have people that the doors they have classrooms for students in the class maybe you get an email and facial recognition seems has we've identified in the story there bunch of creepy things they can do be done windows and anytime you give a powerful tool to administrators schools the one vote that can either block it or let it go ahead I would probably let it go ahead would you want to know more about the company or system that's providing the text fire people who shouldn't have been fired there will be bad stories in the question is whether the benefits that just laid out outweigh the risks want to know who is providing that technology you could do your own sort of vetting of that system Oh of course I mean right again back to my premise you have to assume that the is only in some school districts have protested this as Greg and Tom rate in the story in Lockport New York a bunch of parents said that this potentially intrusive technology anything that is doing constant surveillance of children has the ability to become a catastrophic privacy violation absolutely so I would want to know who the vendor is wanting to how the school has company providing the software as an honest company you have to assume that there is control over the privacy settings and that the images of your children will not be sold to advertisers you should not be used on children the district said in response it doesn't intend to watch students rather officials say they want to keep out unwelcome visitors including suspended algae well let's put aside for the moment that you're you and you're the chief of wired so naturally you're going to be curious about this but if you're just you know just a parent would you students and local sex offenders though sound like you know commendable things to try to do there's another example in the story of a student who was expelled I Texas that is part of you know it becomes one of the primary examples in Greg in Tom's story now in the school system there's a woman who volunteers with families in Texas city and she was actually added the systems watchlist by the head of security for the district because she got into an argument with him the end of the day for the school and if those things are happening which are more likely we don't know who the vendor is insights into yeah then it's awful right I mean you make why and it's something that is made possible by facial recognition but he could of abused his power without the new face recognition system and so the way the sidelines of a school board meeting she ended up calling him an asshole and so he then told her she would be arrested if she returned to school property that unbeknownst to her he added her to this hey to think about a question like that is our such abuses of power made significantly more likely with facial recognition systems problem facial recognition watchlist which she didn't find out until wired informed her that just seems like an abuse of power in some way but that's an abuse of power on the minted I would want to know schools privacy policies but assuming rational answers to all of those get the final vote I vote yes now some parents unsurpassed examples of that kind of abuse but I don't think it's innate to facial recognition in schools there are problems that are innate to facial recognition in schools the one is tried to show up at an a a school event they were to spot him on camera and sort of remove him from the situation but then there's this other story right so there's one city in rural east tied to face recognition technology it's just a new technology that is powerful that one person knows how to use so of course they're going to be examples of them abusing it hash still exists in the present so than the system should not be should not be installed but I don't think that that particular example of an abuse of power is innately we're constantly being watched we can't be authentic selves that is certainly true but does the fact that pickup that's still a problem with the systems that are being sold if they happen that if that technological problem that we know existed in the there are certain elements of the nature of it particularly the anonymity the way that screens affect our brains in the modes we go into when we're using them their ways so you have to figure out where these systems exist who gets access to the feed what decisions are made off of it and ability humans are probably conversing and challenging or difficult ways offline as well as online yeah that's a really interesting example because I feel like with social media more speaks to our human nature in a way right in the same way that sometimes we do terrible things than social media social media just happens to be the tool but in resin general right so does surveillance technology freaks out and make us worse people because we feel like we can actually show who we are we feel that privacy and consent and then you mentioned bias earlier bias in the data sets that would then inform the technology may not work correctly for certain people yeah if indeed that the mediums of social media changes the nature of who we are and what we do and they probably net make us act worse than we do in irl the hard question will be anticipating how it could be used in how could change human behavior it's a fascinating story and

Google CEO Mark Zuckerberg facebook Silicon Valley smartwater Samsung Hynek P. H. Nick developer Greg Barber Louis Best Tom Simon I Bezos five years fifteen percent eighty degrees fourteen day forty hours
E-40, Bay Area rap legend

Bullseye with Jesse Thorn

30:57 min | 1 year ago

E-40, Bay Area rap legend

"This episode is sponsored by the Federal Communications Commission with a message for everyone using a TV antenna to watch local channels plants are rescan as TV broadcast broadcast frequencies change for more information go to F._C._C. Dot Gov Slash T._v. rescan Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is is a production of maximum fund dot Org in is distributed by N._p._R.. It's Bullseye by my guest. This week is the rap legend he forty. If you're from the bay area like I am you know him as one of if not the greatest cultural forces sources in music of the regia certainly hip hop he became that way because of an utterly unique style. Here's one of his first breakout singles rappers ball never been aside and I was having the way before this rap guy intact. She's been forty named himself the ambassador of the bay. That's what he is. He was born and raised in the small town of Vallejo in the East Bay and he's brought the culture of the bay area to the World Graham she would have called him an organic intellectual fiercely independent and unlike anyone or anything else it reminds me of the bay area itself forties distinctive style overflows with language his bars are stuffed to the gills with words words both real and imagined he's hip hops King of slang and he's a stylist without peer. He's also spent his career at the forefront of independent music building a rap empire that changed the way that records were made and sold in hip hop and beyond he is both an artist and of of movement. His distinctiveness has kept him relevant for three decades now from mob music in the nineteen ninety s to hi fi slaps in the arts two new records today his themes are simple hustling street life a little bit of wisdom and a lot of money making here's the latest single from his new album practice. This makes paper. It's called chase the money we could away on women look at this around the plan the film rolling the fourth quarter with lyle pipes detachable. The're world's muscle reaper bikes. I'm GONNA work for a living to make welcome to Bullseye. It's so great to have you on the show. Thank you thank you for having me on here. May I am. I am thrilled. I'm a native San Franciscan so I've been a fan since I was knee high to a grasshopper so very many moves anymore absolutely ankle low TWA centipedes to- absolutely right operates so when I was a kid Vallejo where you're from was basically Marine World Africa USA to me though aquatic theme park <hes> and that was about all. I knew what did you what was Vallejo to you when you were a kid. When I was a kid? It was <hes> Dan Foley Park. It was <hes> the waterfront. It was Wilson Park Mark Baseball. It was limits three park football practices. It was Corbis feel football games. Things would Allah High School football team. It was <hes> Blue Rock Springs. It was US <hes> unity over separation so much love and M._A.. Mode of me it made me become a goat in the game and I'm grateful and thankful thankful. Where are you proud as a kid to be from Vallejo? All you know I definitely never deny while my soil was from. It's just we had to work harder than most because we are small city what about eight or nine XS at the time and we had to prove ourselves to the rest of the area to <hes> you know Oakland to Frisco to you know saying all the other soils bigger cities that was from the bay area. You know yeah yeah I mean Vallejo had a pretty proper music history even just when you were a kid you're born in the mid. Sixties and sly stone is from Vallejo Alejo can function were from Vallejo <hes> John. I didn't know Johnny Otis was from Vallejo until I just happened to look it up earlier today. There was all this there was all this pride in Vallejo. Your uncle was a was a professional musician as well. You know his name. Yes I do know his name was his handle but only because has I only because I wrote it down. I know that you knew him as uncle Chuckie <hes> but he was known as Saint Charles that's right Saint Charles is my uncle and my Mama's brother same last name same Mama Same Daddy I grew up as a young ambitious curious young man and love music played drums <hes> when I was a in the fourth grade and I played all the way to high school <hes> <hes> there was one of the only sources of music they didn't have pro tools and logic and all that good stuff so I used to always holly my uncle Cecchi. I'll go check your uncle chucky. I WanNa make I wanNA make a racket so as I got older me and my brother D- Shabby legit we fought a few dollars and went ahead and put an end to the thing and Bossom C._D.'s enough in a personal up at a rainbow records made made out may the EP and it was a great it was a great ep it would but we knew we needed to do what we came into game to do. We really we really signed up to doing Elyssa spit. L._P.'s you know what I'm saying. You know speak our life <hes> to talk about you know to narrow rate to become a narrator to narrate great to soil to narrate activities as jumping off. I WANNA play your uncle's record. If you don't mind you're glad to forty five rb forty five. Oh Oh my God please. Don't tell me you got that Bro. This arms yeah exactly play. If you play that it's GonNa make me tear up and I'll tell you why KC so happy for my uncle like I was a little kid and he pulled up Millersville and have those those in in the back of his cat a cadillac. It wasn't no Super Bag CALICO says clean cal and I just remember having that you know it's like man that's my uncle and it was just like and I and I know those lyrics. I know the hook you know. May you want me singing before you say let's hear it rock me India <hes> and I wanNA feel It they just missed so much to me. You know we had a famous person. He might not have been worldwide famous witted but he may worldwide famous famous. People people like myself Jay bigger figure. You know any taught me life lessons. He taught me how to get a bank account now Gobert. Let's go get this bank account so show me taught me out about purchase orders invoices everything he was like you know. Uncle is like a second dad. That's what he was in this. He is right now to this day. I didn't know until I started reading for this interview and I I've been a fan of yours for for decades but <hes> I didn't know until I started reading for this interview that you went to college. <hes> I think for you know it's still relatively unusual for M._c.'s but certainly for M._C.'s of your generation there weren't that many dudes who had gone to college went to grambling <hes>. Tell me how you ended up <hes> going away to school so one day so you got us Dan my cousin B legit you know he not just my he not just my family but he like my best friend in the world so everything he did idea that's we. You know we did the same thing we play ball together. We slid out the traffic together. You Know Sam we you know saying it's like when you see be. You're GONNA see me. If you see me. You'RE GONNA see be we'll magazine Street one day and he was like he hit me with the he hit me. We wanted to once he just <hes> year and a couple of months. I'm about to head out to <hes> college as well for real. Okay cool cool. Will you hit a Louisiana. I say Louisiana the Hell Louisiana he say Gig Grandma State University avert. I say hold on Ground State University leaving a couple of months or something like that he said Yeah. I gotta go man who I talked to a mom and say I'm going want to. I need to get up there too because you know at that time <hes> you know life was moving fast Sinoe our seventeen and a half so I'm like that almost eighteen I went and got my transcript and everything from <hes> from <hes> from Hogan High School and I made it in by the here hear my Cheney Chan Chan we went. We we ended up doing music as we was out while we was out there. Do you remember any of the versus that you wrote back then <hes> and let me see I got to remember it was so many US remember it was this was nineteen. eighty-six browder was nineteen says you can google you know what you can punch in forty into the click. Put e forty be legit Grandma's State University <hes> remake school Alma Mater because we feel like we we made the school Alma Mater Elaine grambling university grambling university the answer you to school to learn not to be cool. If you just believe now the other to the other great than the Obama State University University Ah University that awesome as a look so we entered so we we saw at a talent show at grandma and we won Bro we weren't we won the whole talent show when we walked doubt we will sign autographs on campus nineteen. The fall of eighty six eighty seven good brother and you came home to Vallejo and basically just got got in the studio and started making records when we got in the studio didn't waste no time put up. Put up you know put off it on a gas. One in we've made a record caught M._v._p.. Most valuable players it was made each. I be legit should not you know <hes> that so you know Lattanzio I record is don't make it you know what I'm saying so we just kept on the will of you that the war eventually is going to stick. I'll continue my conversation with e e forty in a minute stay with US Bullseye for maximum fund dot Org and N._p._R.. This message comes from N._P._R.. Sponsor smartwater smartwater smart water is for the curious drinkers once we're always looking for ways to make things a little better. That's why smart water created two new ways to hydrate smart water alkaline nine plus Ph and smart water antioxidant with added Selenium and now you can order smartwater by saying Alexa Order smartwater smart water. That's pretty smart. I'm Sean Covey Daunton this week. On hidden brain we kickoff our annual summer series you two point Oh ideas and advice about how you can respond to life's chaos which to just check to my inbox. Just check this check my phone real quick. Uh with wisdom listen to hidden brain from N._p._R.. Every week hi I'm Dave Hi. I'm graeme and and where to House D._J.'s who have been trapped inside our drum machine. We love it here and we'd love if you stop by and visit us every week on stop podcasting big yourself here on maximum fund dot Org. We're just a couple of dufuses from Canada and listener show or perish. Stop podcasting broadcasting yourself on maximum fun dot Org. It's bull's eye. I'm Jesse Thorn my guest. This week is the rapper e forty his twenty eighth eighth studio album practice makes paper is out now. Let's hear a little bit of an early forty record. This is Mr Flamboyant as the neighborhood you chase it down and dirty for years and commanded or nineteen seventy nine the whole walking down the street the Guy Chris Meeting Dallas ca you learn from your your uncle the basics of the record business and found <hes> a one stop shop that could print your records for you and distribute them. What what were you doing to sell them before? You signed your first major label deal in the early nineties so we had a one stop. It was called music people into a one-stop nonstop distribution company right. It wasn't my one stop. It was just a one stopped at all to bear a lot of the bay area rappers and even people from outside of the Bayer USA US and and then we also have city hall records was like our main hub back we did it. We have major beats. All the labels wanted to sign D._C.. <hes> secret reggae forty and click. They wanted to sign us. We went with very wise very wise in jive records so I was paid by the way my <hes> deal with design meows the top house a top hat of Two Thousand Records on seventy five twenty five Jive guys twenty five percent <hes> they got a twenty five percent fear and I got seventy five percent and they couldn't hold a reserve error because of two hundred twenty two thousand was designed to already be sold because deaths what I was selling already before before they had any interests Chris of me. That's a Lotta money. Records is a lot of records to sell on company that a guy yes sir exactly what I was there. We had one of the best deal if not the best deal in the game and my uncle Saint Charles Design a system where he was very smart very smart Tommy alive and he took every he went from city. He looked you know he did due diligence and put together a book and his book it was address book with all the places disowned hip hop music so he would do it. Put together a one sheet with all our information kind of like which you see on Wikipedia but it was a you know wasn't as long as the discography or whatever you know but it was show all the things that we had going have it would have our bar code of how you know the bar code for the CD or cassette at the time you know and so we sent it out what I fi- cassettes and he sent net to everything and he had a major a major network you know so master P and and you know and J._t.. Bigger figure those guys like that you know and the rest of the bay varied A._C._N.. How stick with irregular solar music group in my uncle Saint Charleston and stick with it was doing me Charles? We was the the main guys you know saying and <hes> D._C.. And how we got out and you know they came aboard and got what got my uncle Saint Charles and <hes> m._S. Gaza limit you know and and made a lot of money in <hes> did a thing became iconic in the game very iconic in a I'll take my hat off to them and I love them dearly and that's how it all went. Well you know J._J.. The big figure knew what was up because game recognize game game recognize game in the bay child today Jay to the bigger fish out the MAC mall legends in the game. I WANNA play a little bit of what is one of if not the most iconic bay area hip hop records and it's possible that I I think that because it came out when I was fourteen but one of the all time greatest <hes> and that's the bay the ballers Remix of the loonies I got five on it. When every rapper in the bay was on this record every person who has anybody was on this album Oba on this track and you have one of the best versus on the whole thing? Let's take a listen oak trait may sell body makes it happen Bosquet slatting revenue growth in just a little bit later mighty clouds melt in light violating rallied today must be pitching five best lap forty. I didn't even have cable. I was watching that video on California Music Channel after school shout to go out and e Kawanami <hes> California Music Channel Man C._M._c. man. I kinda you know why but I remember you coming in that video and there's some some you know there's some bold looks in that video you know shock g and Humpty Hump in that video drew down is in that video with their you know what I'm I'm talking about and you come in that video with your glasses down your nose of top of Tab- you know unique square let but really a hip square like gamed up you know throw off methods man. I just looked like this man you know saying you can never know you can't take me to series. You can't take before joke. I'm a character tradition high again Al Glass. I don't wear glasses. I don't need glass not to say that I WANNA future. It could be next week it could be you know ten years from now thirty years from now. Maybe I'm never wear them but I'm just saying that was a look that we chose to take on with the glasses hanging on my nose. You know what I'm saying. Reading glasses is in <hes> desks desks desks look and and you know and the future you see more and more but that was not just me the bay area's racking with that look in the eighties and <hes> I utilize Elisa is <hes> somebody that <hes> you know you see me wearing glasses in a traffic while I'm out there doing my duties moving around wiggling. You know you the airways the Dipoto Penelope's the You know saying that the Cherries <hes> the one time I two five Oh twelve whatever you WANNA call it and I'll tell them about <hes> <hes> at a time just walk as GonNa just look look right past me because he I hate doing that. He Square he and a book he he ain't having it wing tripping on now but at the same time it was also a look a fashion it was part of the culture <hes> and then unfolded like that man and that was dead but you played it. I got Fi- one was legendary and classic we all did we did a great job with that one. I had everybody off to slow hurricane hurricanes. I'm a hat made them. I'm personally form. How's the bartender Heli so you just gave us? Did you just gave gave us twelve names for the police I did. I got plenty more. I'm not surprised to hear that for and you know there's probably some people listening to this right now who are listening on K._l._W.. In San Francisco and they they they know the deal. Will they listen A._P._O.. Yeah they listen to Oh yeah. Katie Co wrote on <music> out to the Valley Jo man with two short sheelah debt that was so iconic when he said that I forgot the song but I say to short is my hero. Yeah I mean I I know young man. I was a young mustache observant his game. You feel me who who would know if I if I would even be in radio today if it wasn't for <hes> The Music Director of K. P. O. J._J.. On the radio J._J.. On the radio to judge on the radio playing the original plan plan classic soul music from the original forty. I five RPM recordings. Crackles and POPs are intentional. Hello Authentic Bay area iconic the platform that invited us all. Let's on me but let's let's cut through a little bit of Bay Area Slang for where people aren't from the bay. I can give you some words and and you give me a sense of what You know what I'm talking about. I'm going off ever but that's something that I was the first rapper screaming at you know what I mean so I take <hes> I can actually really really go ahead and take claim that white flam boasting flambeau sin means being flamboyant and boasting at the same time so you put them both hope together and you got flam Boston. What about San soccer free? What does it mean to be like a free saga free? Is You know continuing to die. Suck as you know to shake haters. <hes> you know and I you know to stay away from suck is in second free. I whenever I hear Sucker free always always ah always remind me of Frisco because I feel like Frisco could Frisco gamed up to two whole bay and every region every city has their own words and stuff that they say sucks city sucker free. That's that's just a scout s death Frisco. You know what I mean. They suck a free forty. Why is it that you a fifty year? Old Man are still making like mainstream mainstream rock rap records with dues that are out right now. Why are you the only only person who can pull that off mean be legit? We used to always talk about dislike man. We get older man. We ain't going to be willing to be slacking. We go BA- game debt. We go aw we're GONNA win or do too much but we're GONNA be right there with them. And we know how far we are ahead of time because we was always students at a game we always was soak up game like a beach towel. Were all OH jeez wouldn't nine we wa- we we we studied it in and we we practice being <hes> we practice making paper we practice because <hes> you know being solid salad. You know what I'm saying. <hes> I will say this. I will say that <hes> and there's not pointing the finger at me like I'm a me me. Mimi like you know what I'm saying Dente third because I stay humble. Stay definitely hungry and humble. Believe it or not man. Some people get mad at me for being so so Hambo they want me to really yes Dami like stand up and just and indiscriminate man like main own it and I do but I do it in in the humble way Qaddafi like humble in this got me all for one I stay humble. You know and like man dude come on man. It's no one your age no one one that has started in the eighties music on the shelves debt state relevant all this time consistently no one in the on the planet. I don't care who it is. I know what brought to hip hop. I noted I'm studying moving the culture forward not backwards. You know what I'm saying and and <hes> I I'm just me man but I always promised myself. Turn what the Times are The Times GonNa turn on you. Change with the Times The Times of change on you but do it in a player fashion where you know you're still you but at the same time you know you fit near right with it was going on today you know talking about I told people even when a hi Fi movement came in man I didn't get it from a particular person. I got it from my region debt. De Hyphen movement was the whole bay area. It wasn't just one person or anything like that. I just joined him because this would it was just so happen that ah you know <hes> <hes> you know legendary guy by Vallejo you know from Vallejo passed away at the time when everything was going great and I believe that he would be iconic and have millions of dollars and everything if he was alive. It wasn't never a personal issue with him. You know what I'm saying. I'll idea was joined in in a movement that was you know that was right there in my backyard. I never moved out of the bay area forty. I can't let you go without you sharing during one of these with me. I'm going to do my best my best forty. Can I tell you I got there from 'cause I always always pay homage. Can I tell you I got there from Bro Yeah. I'm proud to say to a female rapper just happened to her. Name is Suga t which is M._R.. Blood sister say Mama Sane Daddy 'cause she used when she finished sprinkle me and she just Ooh you know people quine me for this yes but like I I'm telling you what's real. I got that from my sister Suga t forty. I sure appreciate you taking all this time to be on Bullseye. Yes sir you know the bay wouldn't be the Bay without the ambassador and thank you. I'm very grateful for everything you've done and frankly <hes> micro wouldn't be what it was without your example and that's Tata. That's the truth ruth. God bless you man. Thank you man I. I'm very grateful and thankful <music>. Thanks again to forty the legend and his new album practice makes paper is out now check out his voluminous catalog of music like the song that's playing right now. Sprinkle me the classic sprinkle sprinkle sprinkle sprinkle being tablet Branko meets. Let's break. That's what we if you WANNA hear some of this G.. M. Say this Branko Franken. Play back on Hannah. Say That's the end of another episode of Bullseye Bullseye is produced at maximum fun dot Org World Headquarters Overlooking Macarthur Park and beautiful Los Angeles California where this week it drizzled for ten glorious seconds before the ninety degree weather started up again. It was a nice ten seconds though the show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our producer is Kevin Ferguson. He's taking care of a baby so ruge monovalent stepped in for him this week. Hey Sue Ambrosio our associate producer we have helped Casey Casey O'Brien here in the office and our production fellow is Jordan cowling are interstitial music is by D._J.. W also known as Dan Wally thanks to Dan for sharing with us. Hey Dan I interviewed forty. Our theme song is huddle formation by the go team thanks to them and their label Memphis Industries for letting US use that the good folks and before you go there are decades of bulls eye episodes for you to listen to in our archives. If you're a fan of hip hop veterans for example why not check out my conversation with masta Ace <hes> check out my interview with big BOI from outkast. How about that lots of great hip hop in the Bulls eye archives? You can find archives at Maximum Fund Dot Org which is our website you can also find them in your podcast and half just subscribe to Bullseye with Jesse Thorn Scroll backwards you can also find the last few years worth worth of shows on Youtube and the Bullseye with Jesse Thorn Channel and I think that's about it just remember all

Vallejo Maximum Fund Dot Org Jesse Thorn Frisco San Franciscan US Saint Charles Jay bigger Federal Communications Commiss East Bay Dan Dan Foley Park Vallejo Alejo Wilson Park Mark Baseball lyle Louisiana Corbis Johnny Otis Sean Covey
MBA1336 Is Gated Content a Good Idea?

The $100 MBA Show

14:18 min | 1 year ago

MBA1336 Is Gated Content a Good Idea?

"Welcome to the hundred dollar because nobody builds a successful business alone. That's why we deliver daily ten minute business lessons for the real world. I'm your host. Your coach teacher teacher omar's then home also co founder of the hundred dollar m._b._a. Business training and community online and in today's episode you'll learn is dated content a good idea many businesses offer content on their website like their blog like a podcast like videos on youtube but they keep much of their content behind signed a paywall. This is called the gated content concept. This means that the offer this content only with the subscription now there's been modern versions of gay content where it's behind a subscription wall meaning that they don't have to pay but they have to give their name and email address to get access to it basically in exchange range for a lead they will give them access to their gated content now. Is this a good idea. There are many types of businesses that do this. There are podcasts cast do this at only offer the most recent podcast episodes in their feed. Everything else gets stored in their archives in their gated content on their website charging charging their customers money or again asked him to sign up to their newsletter or to enlist in exchange for access to that content does his work. Is it useful oh and shooting implemented in your business. That's what we get into in today's episode so let's get into it. Let's get down to business. Smart water is proud to support the ones who are eager to get down to business innovators that believe fresh thinking can be found anywhere that's why they created two new waist hydrate new smart water alkaline and smartwater antioxidant smart water alkaline has nine plus. Keep you hydrated while you're on the move. Whether you're climbing up a mountain or doing mountain climbers on your matt grab a bottle of smart water alkaline to move with you or if you're looking for a moment of zen smartwater antioxidant with edit selenium helps you find balance for your body and mind so the next time you're craving meantime grab smart water antioxidant and now there's a new way to order smart water. Just ask alexa order smart water and the rest is taking care of yourself will think yourself smart water. That's pretty smart. Many hip podcasts just like marc maertens. W t f use the gated content strategy there are many popular youtube channels do the same where they only reveal or or give away for free with no commitment with no sign up a certain number of episode or a certain number of pieces of content beyond that you may need to you subscribe or pay for content on the site now. This is actually a very good revenue model for businesses that use content or media thea- as their business model if you're a content creating machine if you're a content or media company whether you have a podcast or a video channel oh you're a game or things like that. People come to you to watch your content. That's kind of your bread and butter. That's really your currency. Then you have enough wont dont an enough interest in your content that people are willing to pay for it at some level even if that is a low payment like ten dollars a month breath or five dollars a month. If you have the audience you have the numbers you have the volume and this could be quite lucrative but what if you're not a mini celebrity or an influencer what if you just run a business and use content to market your business content marketing so say for example you're on a software company and you have a blog and you use that blog to you generate interest and attract people by s._e._o. Is content really a good strategy. Well i still think he has its place. We actually have a a form of gated content with webinars engine. Now it's not in its pure sense but we have something that we just launched recently called the webinar ninja academy energy kademi is visibly like the netflix of webinar training. It's got video training on so many topics from sales to marketing to engaging webinars to on camera presence presence. Most people would pay thousands of dollars for a standalone webinars course but we offer the webinar in j. kademi as part of any any plan with webinars ninja so our members get this as a bonus as an add on and we keep updating the governor's academy with new videos at new training so you actually have to be paying member to have access to it. It's not extra sauce. Pay extra four or something. Somebody can buy by itself but it's sort of a way for us to say hey we content market. We have blog post we do videos but we have exclusive content that we only offer offer to are paying members and that's a really good way to use gated content to add value to your offering to add value to the experience for your customers and also also to give them the tools. They need to be successful with your product. You wanna make sure that they win with your product so they can continue to use it and continue to pay you for it right so this is a win win win all around it does take time to really produce this content and obviously it takes more time because you've got to continue to produce you said but the reaction we've been getting from our users has been incredibly positive. They absolutely love this new feature this new academy and has given them something to do to get ready as they start planning their webinars so content in terms of being behind a paywall in this form might be a good option for reused so if you have some sort of content like this behind a gated wall or gated area for your clients. Maybe a good option a few especially if you have a service like your coach or you're a consultant and part of your coaching package you do one on one coaching group coaching but they have access to all these he's great pieces of training or library of training and that training can include also exclusive globe blog posts or books or articles or interviews or things like that with experts so i highly recommend this model because it gives people other things to chew on other things to consume and enjoy from your service from your a product now one of the things that i have found that is a great lead magnet and i've seen people use this a lot say for example. They have a platform off off their website like youtube. Let's say you have a youtube channel and you give lessons or you give tips on self defense your self off two vents instructor and you ever growing youtube channel and you produce these videos now. I've seen this done really well. Were these videos will be giving them great tips but then they say hey if you want exclusive content on this topic if you want more on this topic we have a second part to this video in our members area on our website the site and guess what signing up for members area is free. It's absolutely free now. What this does is it allows you to take the traffic and take the visitors or or go to youtube and driving them to your website and then most importantly grabbing their name and email address. You can build that relationship and eventually tournament to customers you wanna turn somebody who's on youtube into a lead. This is a great way to do because they're watching a video. They find interesting. They like it and they can get a free partout. There's video or free exclusive content. All you do is sign for your free membership area where it gives them access to these videos. If you're looking for a great place to host your courses or your content the podium dot com absolutely love those guys check them out another thing i've seen done on podcasts or youtube channels is they'll do interviews with experts or interviews with people that are taste makers in your niche and they'll have exclusive content meaning like a second part of the interview more with that guest an extra thirty minutes or so on their site and again the sign up with either an email just to get access to that area or to that video now. This is not taking full episodes. This is actually breaking up the episodes bringing the interview and giving access to certain people that are happy to sign up with her name and email address dress for access to that second part. Another great use of gated content is basically making an option for implementation tation save for example. You're a coach. Let's go back to that. Self-defensive shorter your self defense instructor than you actually give instruction. Your business model is in person. Can you give classes at the local gym and you have a series of classes. <hes> that span eight weeks now one of the things you can do is you can video oh those eight weeks of training that you do in person and put them up in your video air in podium for example and you can offer that as an alternative into the live instruction so people might not be able to afford the eight week program or maybe they're not ready for or they don't live in your local area and you can offer them. Hey we have the video recordings of the actual sessions. You can't ask questions you can't get corrected in terms of the way you're standing and and your hands are moving for your form but this is like a self study course and you can grab a here and have access to it online a great way to take content you ready have you've already done and added to your offerings. It also could be a package for those who actually attend attend the live instruction in the actual class. You can say hey you could just attend the actual class or you can take the class and get the recordings for this price. Companies and organizations do this all the time with live events or conferences where they say hey. Here's the access to the conference. Here's a tickets to the conference but there's a special ticket costs x. Amount of dollars is behind the pay wall behind our gated community behind our membership aerial ariel get the videos of each session in the conference included with your price and this gives an opportunity for your ticket holders others for your customers to pay a little bit more for a lot extra why because it can watch those sessions over and over maybe they don't have to take as many notes when they're at the actual conference it can focus because a networking and especially the conference has breakout sessions. You know they can't split themselves into three different ways of the three breakouts they can only ten one that way they can and attend all the sessions even if there's breakouts later on so these are just a few ways you can use the concept of gated content as as a revenue stream as a lead generator or as a value add to your current customers. Guys got more on today's episode but before that let me give love to today's sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by kronos. Cronos knows that for many organizations maintaining a modern workforce of early full and part-time time workers can be a challenge. This is especially true for human resource professionals working hard to attract and retain all the best talent. That's why kronos puts h._r. Or payroll talent and timekeeping on a single cloud based platform. It's one specially designed to give h._r. Professionals supporting a blended workforce a whole whole new level of confidence with cronos. You have everything you need to tackle nearly any human resource challenge an power to just find and hire the right people putting engage motivate and reward them every step of the way learn more about kronos h._r. Solutions for them on our workforce and the people who support them at kronos dot com slash slash h._r. Swagger that's cronos k._i._r._o. And o._s. dot com slash h._r. Swagger again. That's kronos dot com slash h._r. Swagger you're cronos workforce innovation that works so from today's episode what i want to stress is it's really good to give giveaway content for content marketing whether you're doing on your blog or youtube or podcast or whatever it is but it's also a good idea to attract people to your website via a gated content area. Whether you're looking to make money make a sale or capture a lead or both either way. If your content is good it and people love what you offer. They're more than likely to be willing to spend their time. Give their email and their money for more. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you lovely here hit subscribe right now on whatever you like to use to listen to podcasts that way you get updates automatically when the next episode publishes it's right on your device so it's right for you when you're ready to listen we're on every platform with spotify or stitcher radio apple podcasts or overcast or who malaria you name it. We're on it hit. Subscribe right now before we go. I want to leave you with this. A word about the quality of content content marketing has become more and more popular information and content in general is plentiful these days. It's all over the place were bombarded with information so the the cream rises to the top the better your information the better the quality of actual content whether it's the writing the videos the audio quality of podcasts the more you're gonna stand out the more more. You're going to attract the right audience. Remember you attract what you present. What you model you wanna. Quality customer provide quality content content. Thanks so much for listening. I'll check tomorrow's episode for your eye friday. I'll see you then take care <music> <music> <hes> <hes>.

youtube kronos instructor omar alexa Cronos co founder j. kademi marc maertens consultant spotify malaria hundred dollar eight weeks thirty minutes five dollars ten dollars
Tobacco

Bullseye with Jesse Thorn

36:41 min | 1 year ago

Tobacco

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity. Some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply with Jesse Thorn is a production of maximum fun dot org and is distributed by NPR aw I'm Jesse Thorn it's bowls. I wasn't long ago less than ten years that record labels used to send us dozens the dozens of unsolicited CDs so many unsolicited CDs and obviously we all know why record labels aren't spending any more money on thousands and thousands of free. CD's Radio Producers and deejays end music critics and so on and so forth but it was a nice time in my life. I was actually how I heard about my next guest I was doing this show out of my apartment in Los Angeles and we got a CD. It's it's a black and white photograph on the cover picture of a man's hand and on the hand there is a woman's face. The band was called black moth Super Rainbow Right bow and the title was eating us and I listened to it mostly because I thought the cover was interesting. I had no idea what to expect and it turned out it was great rich and kind of dirty and unsettling there are all these old synthesizers and bits of tape distortion and weird word processed vocals. They sound a bit like boards of Canada or maybe David Bowie or nine inch nails. It's very difficult to describe. I couldn't stop listening rebate so I was excited to book interview. I mean who was black moth Super Rainbow so I asked the publicist in the publicist emailed me back very politely sorry. They don't WanNa do any publicity not at all in fact when they perform they wear masks so I just tabled it as it turns out black black moth Super Rainbow is basically this one guy his name is Tom he lives in a house in Pittsburgh he records also as tobacco and has put out a bunch of albums under that named to if you've seen the show Silicon Valley on HBO. There's a tobacco song in the opening credits anyway we asked again just recently and tobacco said yes. We're so grateful he did before we get into the interview. Let's hear one more black moth Super Rainbow Song One's off their latest record which is called panic blooms. The song is we might come back. Tom Tobacco welcomed ables. It's it's my second the show thanks what was your first instrument guitar because like fifteen 'cause income me taught me how to play. Where'd where'd you get it? You got it for Christmas kind of been in the music for a couple. Years of my parents thought it'd be a good idea. Maybe do something constructive. I read the story somewhere that you were you. Were talking about hitting your teenage years in your dad got you a subscription to see. 'EM J. The College Judge Music Journal. I think it was and just listening to the CD that came with that every month. It's like an unusual version of the I had an older sister story as to where you learned that music was more than just what was on the Radio Radio Yeah. I miss that I miss that magazine Yeah. I found everything through that this was like one year before my parents had the the Internet yeah it was cool. It was cool. I wish it was still around. Did you have buddies that we're into it. I mean we're their lack punk-rock heads sir. you know underground hip hop ads at your school or was it a solo pursuit. We were more in the like you know we were more like affects twin. Kennedy kids a fixed Oscar Boards of Canada. That's probably why got my first since I thought everything had to be done with guitar for a long longtime and then come change everything. Were you according yourself when you were playing as a teenager I mean your your music is so deeply connected did to sounds on a recording. You know what I mean relative to writing a song to play the party or something yeah it's all about it's all about the recording. That's like my world world. That's why I take that part of it like so seriously because that's what you know that's all is to me. I never never saw myself. Playing life. Never never thought I would be onstage. Never wanted to be on stage. It's it's still still like not in in love with being on stage. What was the first synthesizer that you got? It was a a Yamaha. CS Five probably the only one I could afford at the time super cheap. I don't know how much they are now but I remember it being like really cheap back then like two thousand three. Maybe two thousand to like fifty bucks. Maybe maybe what could it do. It was a modest synth and I didn't know what that meant. so can play not time. I didn't know what any of the KNOBS did. I just turn them until they sounded until it sounded the way I wanted it to. You know he couldn't do much but there's a black. Moth album called started people all the whole thing was made on the most of it at least Did you have buddies that you were making music with few out like everything I've been doing. There's always been people around but like at the end of the day I always made it ninety nine point nine percent of it. I made it alone. I just never knew how to be in a band. I still don't it's. I wish I could sometimes but it's like. It's like something to prove something. I'm not sure what happens. When you try had to be in a band I mean you you are in a band in the sense that when you tour either as tobacco or as black moth Super Rainbow you're both of those are not just you on stage age but what happens when you try to work with people like once every like four years or something you know in in rehearsal global will decide like oh maybe we should try to? We should try to like write something on the spot and it becomes like the worst burden and and it's probably me bringing it down because I can't feel it. You know I think I need to be. I think I just need to be in my space or something I don't know I had a friend in college college who was always noodling around on his guitar watching like UHF Rerun of newsradio or whatever then then one day. I think his junior year of college he came. He's like hey guys I I made an album and we were like. We didn't even know you were writing songs. I just thought you were like playing led Zeppelin riffs to entertain yourself and I wonder when did did you start making the music that you're making public pretty early too early like as soon as my parents got the Internet I found like there's this website. MP THREE DOT com and everyone like me who like wasn't ready to be uploading stuff would upload their stuff. I just thought I always believed in it even if it when you look back on it now and it's like some of it's terrible but it was like as soon as it was done. I wanted to get out there and I think I don't think that's a good thing I think that's a if I could change one thing I would probably go back in like stop myself and like try to like curate and wait until things got a little better because I think you kinda shoot yourself in the foot. When you put yourself out you know when you're putting your first ideas that haven't really had any time to marinate you kind of run the risk of turning people off to what you do because this is the first impression thing you know so? Why do you think you put out your music too early? Where people being mean to you about it? No I just just wasn't wasn't fully formed a little premature. My lungs weren't developed all the way. I don't know just looking back on some of this stuff now. It's like I can just waited like a year. Maybe but that's my own like everything I ever do. I'm always going to look back on it critically and wish I had done it in a different from way. Do you have a hard time embarrassing yourself. I don't know I mean I probably embarrassed myself every single time on stage and eh paid for hello mm-hmm What was it like the first time that you went onto first time we went onto were it was pretty surreal? We weren't getting along that great eight and we had been asked by the flaming lips to go out for a month that was two thousand seven so that being my first tour was hard process I can think about it now and like like man. I like did not deserve to be there anyway. Hey Dan much live performing at all at that point we would do like two shows a year like locally or like sometimes we will go to Chicago. We had done like three or four years of a few shows every year so like probably I don't know like ten shows or something by that point how big how big a room with the flaming lips playing in two thousand seven I mean did you just step in front of a fifteen hundred seat theater later or whatever and it was more than that it was like I mean first off like at that point in my life flick anything over like two hundred people seemed like a huge to me so I think I think our first show with them. It was in this place called the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago and I don't know how many people it is but it's got to be more than five thousand as his crazy. I did not deserve to be there. Why do you think you didn't deserve to be there? I don't know imposter syndrome. I don't know I mean was it because you weren't prepared to put on a show that merited three thousand people watching it or was it because you you feel like you had some kind of moral failing. I feel like maybe like even though like we had been together for a while for a few years and like a lot of practicing in the basement and we're like we knew doing but I know we just felt like we like hadn't worked for it or something. Even we had like I said it's imposter syndrome like at like everything everything I'll I'll tell you I don't deserve anything. Were you already anonymous yourselves at that point in the band's history. He's not like there was any need not like anyone cared. we were anonymous. You didn't have to tell people we are being anonymous. I forget exactly picked the name tobacco but I had a DVD on that sore for sale. It was the first tobacco album album like a year before came put to video so I was that person or thing by that time how did did you decide how you were going to present yourself besides just that it wasn't going to be you know your government name like how we were on stage. Yeah I mean I feel like kiss probably did some Arctic surveys figured out saw on the team. He's the cat you know. But what did you do. Did you go to the drugstore at Halloween and pick out a pick out a mask and go from there or did you pick out a name and think about what it meant to you and what were the steps is kind of natural. Everybody's name meant something to them at the time and everyone had their own solo thing zing so that's mainly what everyone went by like whatever their solo project was called but the mask thing that was like we didn't wear masks as much as it was written about that we were masks. I can really only remember wearing a mask like maybe like two or three times. If you write about yourself in a certain way I didn't learn this until way after the fact like people just like they start to just believe that I guess and someone had written about us wearing masks and so that's just kind of followed us through over the past as ten years but we mainly just hide you know it's like it's like none of us love being on stage. I know that I would rather it's really nice to play for people who want to hear what you're doing that. They would even give you that opportunity but I'm just not. I'm not that guy. I'm just not comfortable we we have even more with tobacco stay with us. It's Bullseye for maximum fun dot Org and NPR this message comes from NPR. Dr Sponsor smartwater smart water is for the curious drinkers the ones who are always looking for ways to make things a little bit better. That's that's why smart water created to new ways to hydrate smart water alkaline with nine plus Ph and smart water antioxidant with added Selenium and now now you can order smart water by saying Alexa Order Smart Water Smart Water. That's pretty smart. Did you know about the Cuban connection to Cuban and jazz or how Mambo influenced early rock and roll I'm Felix contreras host of NPR Music Art Latino podcast. I'll tell you about all those exciting stories and much more war in some special programming I've cooked up for Latino Heritage Month listen and subscribe to let them know from NPR. I'm Travis mcelroy Hi. I'm Courtney enloe. I'm Brent Black and we're the hosts of trends like these tens. These is an internet news show where we take stories trending on social media and go beyond on the headlines. We'll give you the actual facts of the story and not just the knee jerk reactions plus we end every episode with the ray of hope that we call the Wifi of the the week so join us every Friday on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcast trends like these real life friends talking Internet trends. It's bull's I'm Jesse Thorn my guest. Is Tom Fach. He's a musician and songwriter. He records solo as tobacco. He records also as the band band black moth Super Rainbow when people come up to you after a show and tell you what your music means to them are are you able to accept what they say. Yeah it sort of sometimes I'll I can do is stand there and just keep saying thank you because I don't know I don't know how to like live up to maybe what they think I am or you know the things that that music means to them I. I'm not sure that I can live up to that. You know what I mean so I can. I can accept it but it's I mean that's like I really specially like the past few years. I really grown to appreciate that like when people tell me start like the last black moth album hello to do with depression stuff like that and a lot of people coming up to me talking about that and it's like it was really nice. I have a really hard time hearing it. I mean I hear it like it doesn't make me mad or anything. I just have a really hard time being present when people are you're speaking to me in that way and then I feel guilty about the fact that I am having a hard time being present with them when and this is an important thing. I think it was like that for me because I just didn't know how to take some kind of a switch flipped. You can just I don't know like like now I can just focus in like completely on them. You know try to like really listen. It's like meditation or something. How do you think you've got there? What changed maybe making record that wasn't so ambiguous think think making a piece of work that had like a really strong meaning to me? That's a kind of Corny but it kind of opened my eyes to some things and yeah just it just changed the way I was able to interact with some people because of the way they come at it. It's not anymore. It's not just like some like a hippie. He person coming up to you talking about how much they love to listen to my music on acid. It's like someone who went through some stuff and they relate to some things I'm saying is weird kind of out. There is some of the things I say on that album it all makes sense. I think maybe when you've been through that stuff claimed desist desist asked him eh it must have been hard for you as somebody who was pretty invested in quitting up separation between your art and the Voice of your heart and your personal self to make a more thematically direct record I mean like you know on Black Matsubara rainbow albums not only are you performing as a pseudonym on the record occurred and not only are you know many of the beautiful things Arcton warped and twisted in some way and not not only you know you're singing through through heavy processing so your voice is more an instrument than it is a direct reflection action of yourself. You know what I mean like you had gone through a lot of steps to to be one step to you to have yourself be one step to the side of of your art and it must have been tough to make something that was more about you. Yeah I mean but also like a serious serious that one wasn't even though some of the other ones weren't so serious. It kind of also helped me realize that like that stuff. It's always been about me. I didn't even know at the time it didn't click because like I had no interest in making a new block moth record I was I was done a cover juicy knows two thousand twelve and whatever was going on in my head kind of forced me to make panic blooms and I knew it was a direct result of the way I was feeling and I don't know I guess it made me look at everything differently and this is all kinds of new like realizing all along. It's just been me like that's all kind of knew but yeah what were the feelings that you were having that led directly to that music means nothing different from what most people deal with you know. I was beating myself salvo pretty hard and because of it I wasn't sleeping and it's kind of making me like deteriorate. You know unless you sleep the worse off you are and I just got into this really weird. Just kind of never ending like fog you could feel it and it took me a little while. Take out of it. I won't get into lake why I mean but yeah I think having your brain a change like that a little bit because it does I think it does change your brain a little bit. changes perspective sometimes did something precipitate that happening. I don't even it wasn't even like an event. I guess I wasn't keeping myself busy. During that time. Sometimes you need a purpose I think and there have been times where I haven't always had a purpose and that was one of them and it wasn't but it wasn't any specific thing it was just probably the way I always am but letting it take over giving you know giving it that kind of power to take over because I didn't have anything else distracted with Sir Sir so so a lot of times depression can takeaway ones will to get out and make stuff happened in the world. It's a very broad category but like I'm basically talking about leaving the house you know and that is also is also kind of a condition of being a musician who works alone and loves to tinker with sounds like that also isn't a lifestyle that requires a lot of leaving the house. You know what I mean right. So do you find it hard when you're get up and go is at low ebb. Do you find it hard that you're you know that your lifestyle doesn't require you to to go to the office every day or whatever it is that might break things up a little been. They're not anymore the all that kind of learn on take care of myself itself so that doesn't happen anymore. I definitely had a few periods where I'll just like not. I can't even I've no interest in turning the equipment women on trying to write something but I keep myself busy. I don't really like shows or anything but like I don't know we do enough stuff McCain. What kind of stuff do you like to do? I like to go the thrift store. I've always been like really big on fitness ever since I was in high school so that's like man. That's like twenty years now of this stuff so I spent a lot of time like studying that stuff and doing that stuff. I think it'd be cool like right now. I'm like working on trying to get certification ASE certified to become a personal trainer not that I would ever use it because I can't imagine like actually training someone would just be fun to have that be able to flash that you know. I don't know if you get a card but I would love to flush that card. What are the things that you like to do at the gym or health wise everything? It's it's like it's like a it's like I think that world is kind of like there's always noon Nuno's new movements being invented even though you think like the body can only move so many ways like someone's always coming up with some new thing or new new way of doing doing things and that's always been interesting to me so I think if I went into a record store and I was looking for your record they we're probably be in a section labeled psychedelic rock or something like that. What is your relationship and your music music relationship to Psychedelia as a phenomenon like how? How much is that of interest to you like you knew to ask me that I don't? I don't like that stuff it's not like did you know to ask me that. I'm John Professional. I'm doing my best. I do not associate like black moth. That's where that people like to categorize that it's not the kind of music I listen to. It's like I said I was like I was always like effects. Honecker candidate guy and I always saw what I was doing my spin in that world. It didn't really work out that way because I don't think I'm really in that conversation but yeah I don't. I don't dislike stuff is not really for me like with a lot of psych music like the melodies and the songwriting was. It's always like so just trying to recapture the way people did things in the sixties and not really ever like expanding on it. I don't miss so much. Stuff is so borne bars one Brazil uh Did you always have the instinct when you make something pretty to make it change change it so it's more ugly that comes with that came with age and starting to get bored by the simplicity of turn sounds melodies and I think I think when you are so when you're upfront it can be so boring. I duNNo. I try to get I've I've tried to get better and better it's it's not hiding but finding all the nooks and crannies that are in there something where you were talking about wanting to make music that the person listening to it has the experience of still processing and working on it in their heads after the song has ended or the the record has ended and that made sense to me. I was like I kind of understood that idea that that you want onto you want to give people something that grows inside them afterwards rather than disappearing yeah I mean like uh when you put it all out there even like lyrically like if you just put it all out there and everything straightforward and everything makes sense and everything's finished and everything's done done. That's all there is to it that and for some people that's fine. That'll stick that resonate. Now's a kid. I like not knowing what what people are saying because your mind fills in the blanks and kind of how I write my lyrics is like it's almost like stream-of-consciousness where you like you might you might not be saying in anything but it means so much and you don't know why but I think that all kind of ties into not being finished you know. Are you interested in your music having a scary or discomfiting quality like I think of a Father Music that I've listened who regularly in my life yours probably the prettiest that I also find a little disconcerting. I don't WanNa be scary because I think like like people who try to be scarier usually pretty corny my I don't want you to be comfortable all the time because it's so boring as the shake you up somehow not not all the time. I'm not trying to be like shocking racing but I mean that's life to equal an opposite Uh thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so happy to do it. We've made an occasional request to have you on the chauffeur for since I was making it by myself in my apartment probably eleven years ago or something so I'm really finally make it happen often. I really love your music. Thank you thank you I was like I was kind of surprised. When I saw the list of people you guys interviews like why would they ever Eh? I mean the answer is because you've been on the list for. You've been on the list for ten years. Thank you very much for doing it. I really appreciate thank you tobacco. The Black Moth Super Rainbow records are wonderful tobacco's. Solo records are also really good. We didn't get to talk about this during the interview but he's got a new record with the rapper for a Sop rock. It's called Malibu Ken. Here's a track off of it. This is corn maize. I'm the World Weekday News Bet now be dining asked powder asked ash pile climate apoplectic bow every gap crackdown don't touch that liberty strep doors quagmire weather but it's worded snatching victory Georgia the bats at the end of another episode of Bullseye both produced maximum fund dot Org World Headquarters Overlooking Macarthur Park Beautiful Westlake Los Angeles California in the park this week a trio of dancers shot video. Oh next to the lake told it was an impressive display of athleticism that one of them had yellow sneakers and at the wildlife and other park visitors regarded regarded the scene indifferently the show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our producer is Kevin Ferguson pesos. Ambrosio is our associate producer. We got had help from Casey. O'Brien production fellow at maximum fund is Jordan cowling are interstitial music by J W also known as Dan Wally thanks to Dan for sharing with us our theme song is huddle formation by the go team great band. Thanks to them for letting US use it. Thanks to their label. MEMPHIS INDUSTRIES ARE THANKS TO HELEN AT W. E. S. A. in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania for helping with that interview with tobacco and before you go. Did you know that Bullseye has twenty years archives okay. It's like eighteen years of archives but still a lot of archives you can find them. All on our website maximum fund dot org you can also find many of them on our youtube channel which you can find by searching for Bullseye with Jesse Thorn easy to listen to easy to share their if you're one of those people who listens to stuff on Youtube. I know there's a lot of people do that. you can also like us on facebook. We share our interviews there. You can listen to them right there on facebook if you want to. That's facebook dot com slash bullseye with Jesse Thorn you into interviews with musicians we did too to how about checking out our interview with Nile Rodgers from Sheikh whether or not you're into sheikh you loving lower. Rogers is like the most amazing guy ever a joy delight that guy is there on our website maximum fun dot org or in your favorite podcast APP. You can find them. I think that's about it. Just remember all radio. Oh seven signature sign off Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of maximum fund dot org in

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MBA1341 How to Have a Free Plan Alternative That Wont Cost You Money

The $100 MBA Show

15:34 min | 1 year ago

MBA1341 How to Have a Free Plan Alternative That Wont Cost You Money

"<music> welcome to the hundred dollar business building goodness every day with daily business lessons for the real world. I'm your host or coach or teacher omar's at home. I'm also the co founder of the hundred dollar n._b._a. Visits training and community online and in today's lesson you'll learn how to have a free plan alternative. That won't won't cost you money some of us. If we run a software company subscription based business a membership an online course anything that has reoccurring payments we consider the option of having a free plan to get people into the door to acquire more potential customers. The problem with that is you are paying money to service service those customers whether it's your server power or your customer service team helping them out using their hours on a free customer or the admin to serve them. Luckily early this month. I sat down with patrick campbell. The founder of profit well patrick is the brightest and most experienced person and i know when it comes to pricing plans packaging and he's helped us tremendously with our phone company and i want to share with you some tips he shared with me on that call in that that conversation when it comes to creating alternative plant i love this idea so much i was like i got to mention it on the podcast and share it with our listeners so let's let's get into it. Let's get down to business feeling stuck in your job. Bank of america of the academy for consumer and small business helps you develop a long term career path through peer mentorship immersive programs and a variety of clear and distinct paths. You can reach the next level in your career. Take your first steps towards a long term career path at careers dow bank of america dot com again. That's careers doubt bank of america dot com. I absolutely love patrick gamble. He's a great guy. I've been falling him online for some time. I got to meet him recently. At <hes> this year's microcosm conference he gave a tremendous speech and recently this month. I was on a phone call with him to discuss our own business in our own pricing icing in plans and he shared with me this strategy for some of us. It's quite costly to offer a free plan. There are lots of costs involved off for serving a customer and if they're not paying you any money. It's sometimes hard to justify the cost. Now i want to start with something that patrick campbell says over and over in all videos in his blog posts if you ever follow him on twitter and he says free plans are an acquisition strategy not a pricing tragedies an acquisition play. It's a way for you to acquire potential customers right. They're not customers yet because there are paying you anything and you're definitely not making a profit on them. You're actually spending money money to get them but it's a way to acquire potential customers for some people this cost of having a free plan and serving these free customers customers is lower. It's cheaper than acquiring a customer via marketing via ads via pay per click via sponsorships on pot. Whatever it it is for some people this cost of serving. This customer on a free plan is lower than running ads then marketing to customer with marketing dollars dollars right that makes total sense for that type of business but if you can acquire customers via s._e._o. Or through your blog posts or through other mediums like your podcast or your youtube channel. Maybe acquisition maybe acquiring potential customers is not your biggest challenge their biggest challenges profitability or closing deals converting them so don't jump onto a free plan idea unless you have this problem and you can't solve it for cheaper than the cost of having a free plan. Let me say that that again. Do not consider having a free plan unless you can't acquire customer for less money than it costs you to have a free plant now in our case. It's quite expensive to serve a free customer because it costs us quite a bit of money to stream webinars user streaming servers to save save data to save videos views or large files and things like that so if we're going to offer a free plan. It's going to cost us a pretty penny in cost us a good amount of money for each customer so it's actually cheaper for us to acquire customers outside of a free plant through marketing. Thanks to patrick gamble. We were able to discover that but that doesn't mean you can have an alternative strategy or an alternative to a free plan. Let's say for example you offer a product. It's a subscription product and you're starting subscription. Price is fifty dollars okay and you're profitable at that price point fifty dollars whatever you offer them. It doesn't in cost you that much. Let's say cost you twenty dollars to run now. Instead of just adding a free plan what you can do is you can create a plan that covers your costs just for example that plan that costs you twenty dollars and you charge people fifty four. What if you cut that plan half in terms of what it actually offers and make that you're very low. Oh cost plan like your basic. Plan is gonna cost you ten dollars to serve that customer all up whatever those costs are to serve that customer so why. Why don't you charge that customer ten dollars. If you want you can charge them a couple of bucks more charging twelve dollars just in case you wanna leave a room for buffer so save for example you. You have a basic plan for twelve dollars so now your entry point four. Your product is twelve dollars versus fifty. This is going to attract a lot the people to come to your product now. Obviously it's not free but it's pretty low cost it. It's actually a price. That's very low in in a lot of cases you're probably going to be offering a price that is unheard of in your marketplace in your niche and this would differentiate you and allowing acquire customers and we should actually she call them potential profitable customers because you're not profitable yet. Your whole point of this plan is just like a free plan is to get them to upgrade to a profitable plan which in in this case would be the fifty dollar plan where you're making thirty dollars on each plan because it costs you twenty what this does is it lowers the barrier of entry and it opens. I wouldn't say the floodgates floodgates but opens the gates to people to subscribe and give your product chai. That's what free plans are all about. Give your product of try win them over with the experience and then because they need more to actually grow with your product they will upgrade to that profitable plan. I really like this idea media and it's the reason why i wanted to share on the show because patrick really nailed something here and basically you're saying you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know have to just say all or nothing you can offer something attractive to your customers acquire them and don't be out of pocket your out of pocket. You're still breaking breaking even and you have somebody enjoying your product somewhere. You can nurture somebody that you can upgrade later or in many cases upgrade very very soon immediately even after they've tried your product for a few minutes with you know twelve dollars example. They're going to be like hey cool. This is really good. Actually i need a higher plan. Let's go with the higher plan now because they're technically paying user. This creates a dynamic in your business with your customer service team with every aspect act of your business really that treats them like a full fledged customer. A lot of businesses see their free users as sort of a lower class citizen. Maybe they don't get to them as quickly as possible. Maybe don't serve them as a high priority because hey they're not paying so they'll serve paying customers i so by making sure that there are paying customer emmer and their costs are covered. They're going to get a brilliant experience and therefore it's a lot easier to convert them. A lot of people dropped the ball with free plans because they don't treat their customers the way they should be treated so they can feel like this is a great experience and upgrade. Gotta give it up to patrick campbell. That was a great great little tip type. I got a bit more about today's topic but before that let me give love to today's sponsor smart water is proud to support the ones who are eager to get down to business the innovators that believe fresh thinking can be found anywhere that's why they created two new ways hydrate new smart water alkaline and smartwater antioxidant smart water alkaline align has nine plus ph to keep you hydrated while you're on the move with your climbing up a mountain or doing mountain climbers on your matt. Grab a bottle of smart water alkaline to move with you or if you're looking for a moment of zen smart water antioxidant with added selenium helps you find balance for your body and mind so the next time you're craving meantime grab smart water other anti-oxidants and now there's a new way to order smart water. Just ask alexa order smart water and the rest is taking care of yourself will think yourself smart water. That's pretty smart to wrap up today's lesson you don't have to go all or nothing you can have free plan if the cost of acquiring that customer and serving the customer via the free plan is cheaper than acquiring customer via marketing through ads or you can cover your costs with a very low inexpensive. You've lowering the barrier of entry plan. Give them just enough to experience product ghetto win and feel like yes. This is for me and they can upgrade to your level of profitability your next level or your next plan in your product in your business. That allows you to be profitable. Thanks patrick campbell for the amazing tip. I highly recommend you check out profes- well a very easy to use tool to track your metrics. Your sas metrics if you have any reoccurring payments system or recurring business a membership a sass product. It's absolutely free to see your metrics. Your emory are your churn. Check him out a profit. Well dot com. I love their blog. I love their youtube channel. They got a great series on that youtube channel called pricing page tear downs where they tear down big sas companies pricing pages and critique them and of course if you wanna follow patrick gamble on twitter his handles at patacas. He's always tweeting something brilliant. Thank you so much for listening to one hundred on h._b._o. If you love what you hear hit subscribe right now that way as soon as we released a new episode we make sure it's right on your device so it's ready for you to listen when you're ready to listen before i go. I wanna leave you with this. We all need some sort of strategy to acquire new customers. Our job as the business owner is a find out the most cost effective way to do this to find the most targeted leads the people that would convert the highest at the lowest price possible for some businesses free plan is just that in addition to marketing to running ads to do social media doing all the other stuff partnerships and webinars for some people a free planet is just not not cost effective just like us and that's okay one size does not all and of course you can go down the middle road and go with suggestion of a low cost plan that covers your cost like you mentioned today. Thanks for listening ultra q in tomorrow's episode for friday. We'll see you then take care <music> <music> nope.

patrick campbell patrick gamble patrick youtube twitter co founder omar founder Bank of america dow bank business owner alexa emmer twelve dollars hundred dollar twenty dollars fifty dollars ten dollars
MBA1347 Is it Better To Be The Best at One Thing or Good at Many? + Free Ride Friday!

The $100 MBA Show

14:19 min | 1 year ago

MBA1347 Is it Better To Be The Best at One Thing or Good at Many? + Free Ride Friday!

"Pay today is free right friday. Straight hang onto the end of the episode of the here who won this week's free ride every friday we give away a lifetime membership to our course easy course how to build your own online course in thirty days retails for five hundred dollars over easy course dot co but somebody who's going to win it for free right here on the show and you can win for free as well every every friday. You have a chance to win. All you gotta do is leave us an itin rating interview and you enter our weekly random draw. It's that simple. It's our way to say. Thanks relieving us love on itunes hurry. Let's jump into today's episode. In two hundred army show no fluff just the good stuff every day with daily ten minute business lessons for the real world. I'm your host or coach or teacher. Omar's than home also the co founder of the hundred dollar m._b._a. Business training and community online and in today's episode you'll learn learn. Is it better to be the best at one thing or good at many. This is a question i get asked when it comes to product creation. Whatever offer you're going to give your customers whether it's a product like a software or a physical item worry course or consulting or coaching whatever you offer. Is it better to be yeah. Well rounded and be pretty good at everything for your customers or is it better for you to narrow in and be the best in one particular area and kind of alright with everything else this. We're going to be focusing on today. This is so important because i struggled with this in my own businesses for years. I learned the hard way which one will always give you long term success see the thing is is that when you make this choice. You're setting the foundation condition for your business. You have to make a choice. Are you going to be something for everyone for everything to someone. We're going to take a look at some case studies as well as my own personal examples so let's get into do it. Let's get down to business supports. Any show comes from mail chimp milchan's zone one marketing platform allows you to manage more of your marketing activities from one place so you can market smarter and grow faster. How do i know well. We've been using milton for over. We're five years absolutely love it. Super simple useful and the support is amazing. It's powered by a marketing c._r._m. So you collect organize and understand the most importantly act on all your audience's data. Now you know who to talk to what to say when to say it in the best channel to deliver the message learn more at mail chimp dot com again. That's mail chimp dot com off just a few minutes ago. You heard me say. Do you want to be something for everyone or for everything to someone. I didn't make that actually comes from an advertisement billboard. I saw when i was a young kid actually when i was thirteen years old i remember it's because because my father was a sales person is a car salesperson at a dealership and i was thirteen years old at the dealership one of the cars that they sold were porsches and the dealership had a billboard billboard created by porsche right outside that dealership and it was a porsche. The porsche had said we're not something for everyone. Were everything everything to someone that really stuck in my head very long time because it had me thinking what's wrong being something for everyone. Why is it better to be everything to someone. Kinda filed away to my head and then i grew up a started working i sort of businesses and one of the biggest pain points i had when i was was growing. My first few businesses was this pain of being ignored. Every business owner hates being ignored and one of the easiest wasabi wasabi. Wasabi vanilla is to really try to cater for everybody. We are trying to speak to everybody. You're trying to serve the needs of everybody in your marketplace and then we wonder why are people not resonating my brand or my business the businesses that i started to see that we're really making a difference a really having some real growth growth were specialty businesses businesses that specialized in an area and let me give you a quick example. There's an app called. Luxury escapes apes okay. It's a travel app. Basically it offers you deals on high end five star vacations in exotic glance. Now luxury escapes could have said hey. We're going to give you the greatest deals on all the vacation spots. Everyone wants to go to the carribean orlando orlando florida disneyland things like that right but this already people doing that. There's already guides that help you out with that. There's groupon and all the other copycats of groupon. Instead luxuries keeps us. No we're not going to do that. We're going to totally different. We're doing very very well that no one else is doing well which which is hand-picking some really amazing places to visit and to enjoy some arnuhar actually met one of the the senior members of luxury escapes recently on a meet up and they actually physically go to each location so for example if they're going to do a luxury escape deal which is like a seven ideal at a really swanky five-star hotel in shanghai they will go to the hotel. They'll do videos and they'll create a special experience for their customers so they'll put together a v._i._p. Deal with massages fine dining interesting experiences france's and of course the accommodation may even specialty one on one tour now is luxury escapes cheap. No it's expensive okay but for are those who are willing to spend money on a really nice vacation and don't want to do all the homework about what's a good place to go to in a major city that i want to go to or were of some nice beaches in the world. It's almost like people that spend money on their holidays. They will go to luxury escapes because they're going to do all the work for them. That's their specialty realty so let's bring it back to your business. What do you do that. No one else does better answer that question for you might be outstanding standing customer service good example. This example zappa's won the gain with amazing customer services a joke that even zappa's will order your pizza if you ask them to basically saying that you know the customer service agents will do anything you ask them now. Does apples have better shoes and other shoe stores no they didn't or i should say they don't write but they won in the shoe retail game with their excellent customer service. They did something exceptionally well and that's why they're able to stand out from the crowd. They were the best at it. I'm gonna use another example that might catch you by surprise mcdonald's now you might be thinking oh oh mcdonald's is for the masses. It actually isn't okay. Mcdonald's is created and if you read the story for the sole purpose of providing good d- fast food at a low cost their specialty is giving you your meal quickly at a low cost. That's really it is now now now as mcdonald's something for everyone no therapy that i know personally that wouldn't be within five hundred meters of mcdonald's. It's the last thing they would want to eat. They'd like to take their time. When the they're not necessarily looking for the cheapest meal possible they're willing to invest a little bit better meal and feel better about themselves goes in their health so even the giant of mcdonald's does something specifically very well and specializes in senator trying to be everything will serve officer and mcdonald's right can't get a table cloth candlelight dinner at mcdonald's so i want you to commit to this. I want you to go and look at your business. Where is your biggest strength. Strength with your product with your service with your team. We're can you defend yourself by being the best at something. I'll give you an example from our business our software webinar ninja ninja our webinar software the number one thing that people say when they use your software is that it's easy to use. It's so simple to create a webinar. We do it better than every one else so we doubled down on that. We make sure it's super simple. We really sell fact on our videos in our sales pages. Now it doesn't mean we're horrible everything else but it tracks the right people tracks that people that want to create webinars but don't want to deal with the hassles cels. They're leaving our competitors for those reasons and we want to clean them up. Pick them up support them say hey we got your back. Come into our arms right this what we say we really want them to feel better about that pain of dealing with webinars and having a hard time creating them now another reason why being the best at something is when you're really the best something people come to you for that reason and it's hard for them to leave retention the name of the game and business just like porsche russia example. I gave you in the beginning people that love porsches is hard for them to stop driving a porsche. When it's time to get a new one there you're gonna get the latest model of if people love running webinars they love how easy it is. They're not willing to look at another competitor and see how they do their webinars how it is to use that offer they already fell in love with you because you do it so well if you love zappa shopping experience and if you have to return something so simple and easy and pain-free it's hard to switch it takes a lot of mental and physical energy to switch to a competitor. Why do these people do great. I can kind of put up with anything else so i can say hey. It's not so bad that sometimes the shoes are sold out. Hey it's maybe the shipping is not as fast as i want making that up. I don't know but the point here is that people will be okay if others are your business are not that fantastic if you do what they're looking for very well. You're the best so look at your business. Look at your team. Where could you be number one. At what aspect of your product of your business of your offering can you be number. One guy's got more on today's topic but before that let's give love to today's sponsor smart water is proud to support the ones who are eager to get down to business the innovators that believe fresh thinking can be found downed anyway. That's why they created. Two new ways hydrate new smart water alkaline and smartwater antioxidant smart water alkaline has nine plus ph to keep you hydrated adriana while you're on the move whether you're climbing amount or doing mountain climbers on your matt grab a bottle of smart water alkaline to move with you or if you're looking for a moment of zen smartwater the antioxidant with edit selenium helps you find bounce for your body and mind so the next time you're craving meantime grab smart water antioxidant and now there's a new way to order smart water. Just ask alexa order smart water and the rest is taking care of yourself will think yourself smart water. That's pretty smart now. This is super hard for a lot of people to choose something to be the best now the best thing i can say to you the best advice i can give you is just see this as the first step. This is just the first thing you're going to be the best day now a lot of like i can't be good at one thing. I'd be good at pretty much everything right. You can't just like the rest of my business. I'm not saying that i'm saying be great at one thing and okay at the rest acceptable. Why because it's hard for you to focus and be the best at everything at one time so what i'm asking you do is choose one thing right now to start with be the best that and and then move onto the next thing then you'll be the best at that and then the next thing see them as like six months challenges in the next six months are going to be the best in my market when it comes so this area take on the next challenge. This is going to help you really stand out. Thank you so much for listening to the hundred dollar v._a. Show today's episode talks over though because it's free right friday i gotta give away a lifetime membership too easy of course on how to build your own online course. Let's see you on this. Week's free the ride and the winner is fair. Game bear says more real world awesomeness five stars. I'm totally on board with a purpose driven company. I can't i can't wait to implement it. Gave was commenting on an episode of that. We publish at the time of his review back in february of two thousand eighteen gave relieving us that review. You are a free ride friday winner. All you gotta do is email me over at omar one zero zero n._b._a. Done so can hook you up with the lifetime membership easy course. It's that simple. If you want a free ride just leave us an items rating interview and you enter our weekly random draw. Just listen on our friday to see if you want that simple before i go. I want to leave you with this. Specializing ising will always give longevity to your business will help you survive the ups and downs generalists tend to get ignored. A perfect example example is if you have a medical condition. You're having problems with your liver. Would you prefer to see a g._p. A general practitioner or specialist when it comes to deliver someone who dedicated dedicated their study and practice to deliver somebody that has seen your case over and over and over and knows the solution to your problem of of course the specialists and you'll value specialist so much higher willing to pay much much more to get that person's help because you are his target audience or her target audience. What's your confident in her abilities. You're confident that you're gonna get an ara why you want that kind of connection with your customer that kind of confidence that they have banou. You only get that when you're the best at something listening chick you in monday's episode. I'll see you then take care <music> <music> the.

porsche mcdonald Mcdonald groupon Omar business owner zappa shanghai orlando co founder milton alexa france russia senator officer hundred dollar thirteen years
MBA1330 Q&A Wednesday: How do I get ready to take the leap into business?

The $100 MBA Show

13:27 min | 1 year ago

MBA1330 Q&A Wednesday: How do I get ready to take the leap into business?

"Do <music> welcome to the show biz podcasts at gets you going and get you doing in your business with our daily ten minutes as lessons for the real world. I'm your host oester. Coach your teacher. Omar's home also the co founder of the hundred dollar m._b._a. Business training and community online and today's episode is a cuny wednesay z. episode on acuity wednesday episodes. I answer a question from one of you one of our listeners. If you have a question you want to ask just email me over at omar at one zero zero m._b._a. Dot on net. Today's question is from brand and brand asks. I've always played it safe because i'm afraid to fail of only applied for jobs. I'm overqualified overqualified for and took on projects. I feel fully confident. About how do i get ready to take that leap into business. Entrepreneurship could could good good question brad and i'm gonna help you and everybody who's listening. Has this question in their head right now. Fear of failure is very common and n. very natural just part of our instincts as human beings to protect ourselves. The problem is is that that fear of failure is was holding you back from actually actually succeeding from actually going after things you want in life like starting a business and i'm happy bread that you have the self awareness to recognize that this is your challenge alan jr and we're going to overcome this challenge together. I'm going to show you how to use them fun easy things to do to get used to this feeling of failure accepting it so you can take that mental and practical leaf into entrepreneurship so let's get into it. Let's get down to business support today. Show comes from eminem. Hazelnut spread chocolate candies spreadsheets and emails got. You're bogged down robbery. Salvatori with the new eminem's hazelnut spread chocolate candies guaranteed to deliver a delicious combo of hazel spread and milk chocolate and every bite size espy's. They're a perfect way to bring some fun into your day eminem's new his let's spread chocolate candies are instant classic unlocking side of indulgence. Yes that's all its own. These an ems are so good. They're like a little bit of a luxury in your day. Go hazel nutty and try the new eminem's hazelnut spread chocolate cla candies today so brad asks here on cuny wednesday today. How could he stop playing it safe and prepare himself for the leap into entrepreneurship entrepreneurship. He's afraid of failure. It's as avoided all his life so i want to start today's lesson with some truth some tough love and something that needs needs to be understood so it needs to be established this fact okay. These are facts that you need to accept you cannot succeed without feeling you have to fail fail and this is especially true in business failing as part of the process. I always say failing is a right of passage if you're or not failing. You're not doing something right. You're not trying hard enough. You're not risking enough. You're not doing something that's significant enough. You have to fail in order to succeed. If you want to do something significant in this world like start a business like build something that you've been dreaming about. You're going to try some things that are not going to work out some things in that process and you have to be okay with that and you have to expect that and you can't spend too much time recovering from failure because time is your biggest asset. You have to be able to bounce back as quickly as possible and keep moving forward. So how do you get yourself prepared. Get yourself trained so new actually actually do this and start a business and you do fail. You don't just crumble and resort back to just doing what you are doing before well. There's a few things where you take a few steps steps. We can learn some things we can do some things and we can ease into it so number one the best thing i can advise you to do from i'm the star is read biographies about people. You admire about entrepreneurs you admire. This is going to be a masterclass for you. It's going to allow you to see that you can't become what you want to become an achieved the success that others have without failing some of my favorite biographies and autobiographies <hes> our shoe dog by phil knight the founder of nike. That's a tremendous book that is all about how hard business business can be and how failures part of it the hard thing about hard things by ben horowitz fantastic book about his journey in the tech community elon musk by ashley vance. This is a great biography as well that walks you through people that you perceive to be incredibly successful in brilliant geniuses cases of our time yulon mosque. If you look at their journey it's riddled with failure until date it's filled with failure and because of it their successful born standing up by seymour great biography autobiography i should say i can't make this up by kevin hart another great burger fee and other great autobiography. I should say <hes>. The audio version is fantastic. He's as innovation. It's hilarious. These are some books i highly recommend you read or or any other biographies autobiographies that you would be drawn to people have done the things that you aspire to. You're gonna learn that hey hey if these people these giants these people that i admire and look up to i think there are amazing had endorphin earlier i'm going to have to do to i'm going to have to fail to if i have to or want to achieve the success they had so number. One biography are great for that reason so that's a good way to kind of grab your head and change change your mindset about failure number two. I want you to take on a new hobby a new skill that you are totally lee uncomfortable with this something lower than it has to be in business or in your career. I'll give you a very good example nicole. I recently picked up snowboarding when you who pick up something like snowboarding. That's absolutely new to you. You learn very early on like the first few days you try it. I am going to be horrible at this this this sucks. I am falling constantly. I'm hurting my tailbone. I'm slamming my knees into the is it hurts and you're not good at it. It is is a test of how strong your will is. It's a total attack on your ego right on your self esteem and it's good training raining because you realize i have to fail. I got a fall. I gotta keep on doing this until i get it until i get the feeling until i knew how to stop until i knew how to turn until i know gotta get on my heel edge to edge all stuff and you realize i'll long road ahead. I need to keep doing this. If i wanna get better stick to it and it's really healthy to pick up a new skill. Take on a new hobby that you're totally new to the you have no idea how to be a beginner at something again. Puts you in that position where it's like man i feel the bitterness failure and it's important for you to taste it supporter for you to feel the pain and live in the pain for a moment so you can realize this is how it's going to be get used to it. This is how it feels to fail right and i think it used to as a good thing like feel and get used to it and be like this is no big deal. Let's get up get up again. Try to go down this mountain again. Let's keep doing it again and you start to realize i can't waste. It's time huffing and puffing worrying and feeling bad and feeling sorry for myself. Every time i fall every time i fail so an exercise like this is great maybe for you. It's dance picking up the waltz taking some classes and working towards some sort of dance recital. This could take months. It could take a year but the point here is that you're preparing pairing yourself and getting yourself used to failing at something learning from the failure and being quick to pick yourself up and keep at it. I highly recommend and this exercise because i've learned a lot from picking up new habits new hobbies. I should say our new skills. Being a beginner. Again is a a blessing allows you to learn. All the lessons are gonna learn when you start a business. It's gonna lie to build some resilience and understand that failure. Oh you're is a part of the journey. My third piece of advice is that when you make that leap into entrepreneurship you do not have to do this all at once you can do a part our time you could start a side hustle and you can get a taste of what it feels like to not be so good at something and failed something interesting and improve while you have the security of your job last week had a great guest teacher lessened by sean patel had a build a seven figure business without quitting your fulltime job so check out that episode code because it's got some really good advice on how to start building a business on the side and it's important for you to get these reps in. It's a lot easier to keep going at it especially. When you have income coming in from your daily job from your regular job guys they've got more on today's topic will before that let me give left to today's sponsor. Smart water is proud to support the ones who are eager to get down to business. The innovators that believe fresh thinking can be found anywhere. That's why they created. Two new ways lisa hydrate you smart water alkaline and smartwater antioxidant smart water alkaline has nine plus hydrated while you're on the move whether you're climbing up a mountain or doing mountain climbers on your matt grab a bottle of smart water alkaline to move with you or if you're looking for a moment of zen smartwater antioxidant with edit selenium helps you find and bounds for your body and mind so the next time you're craving meantime grab smart water antioxidant and now there's a new way to order smart water. Just ask alexa order smart water and the rest is taking care of yourself will think yourself smart water. That's pretty smart guys today's as lesson. You've got to train yourself to accept failure for what it is is just the steps before success. That's all it is. You're going to fail a little little bit so you can learn from those failures. You can fine tune. You're going to tweak. I love the analogy over that. I gave with snowboarding. It's great activity because with every failure learn something like oh. I fell down all that time. I leaned too much forward. I should you know stick to leaning this way. I didn't bend my knees. I was you know focused on something else. That was looking somewhere else. So therefore i turned that way allows you to course correct and that's what failure does it tells you how to do something. Was it a thomas edison who <hes> <hes> discovered how to create the light bulb after thousand tries. He's the one that said <hes>. I didn't fail nine hundred ninety nine times. I just learned nine hundred ninety ninety nine ways not to create a light bulb so there have it. That's what you have to kind of have that perspective and you're going to get that through stories of other entrepreneurs through biographies through picking up some new hobby new skill. That's gonna teach you in a low risk way. That's not going to cost you your career that failures a part of learning as part of growing growing apart of improving right and it's just a right of passage of success and then lastly easing into getting the taste of failure in the actual business this and learning through iteration while you're still at your job. Make sure you check out the guests teacher lesson that we had last week with sean patel theory very avid guys. Thank you so much for listening before i go. I want to leave you with this. Fear of failure in general is something we've learned as has adults. Yes inner nature like mention. We want to protect ourselves. You won't feel bad but that feeling of. I want to be embarrassed. Wanna feel like a loser. All that kind of stuff comes comes from something we've learned in life. These is just don't come out of thin air to prove it. When you're a toddler when you're a kid when you learned how to walk and you see a child or how to walk they get up and they fall face the fall on their face. It keep falling. Keep tripping keep slamming onto the floor but they keep getting up to keep going to keep trying. They don't just just like give up after two tries out. Forget this walking thing oldest crawl for the rest of my life. No they keep on persevering. They see other people walking. They wanna walk like them and that's how we grow in life and that's how progress and that's what you need to do in this stage in your life not walking anymore. It's now starting a business making decisions. Taking risks calculated risks of course an understanding that failure is a part of the journey. Thank you so much for listening and i'll check you in tomorrow's episode l. c. take care <music> <music> <music>.

eminem snowboarding brad sean patel Omar Dot cuny co founder ben horowitz robbery yulon mosque phil knight endorphin alan jr alexa nike thomas edison kevin hart nicole ashley vance
"The Kingmaker" filmmaker Lauren Greenfield on interviewing Imelda Marcos

Bullseye with Jesse Thorn

35:06 min | 1 year ago

"The Kingmaker" filmmaker Lauren Greenfield on interviewing Imelda Marcos

"Hey folks it's Jesse we're getting close the end of the year. Maybe you're thinking about gifts you're getting your friends and family. Maybe you're thinking about what causes you can support. I WanNa take a second and talk to you about supporting reporting your local public radio station. I'm literally a lifelong listener to public radio shoutout to cake day and KLW in the bay area now. You might be thinking if I listened to Bullseye on my phone. Why should I donate to a radio? Station was pretty straightforward. Bullseye is part of a public radio network because all all those stations give money to. NPR AND PR is able to pay us to make shows like Bullseye and bonus when you support public radio. You're helping build curiosity conversation. -Sation and community right in your backyard. That's why I support my local. NPR member station. And why you should to this year. We're making it really easy. Just go to donate dot not NPR dot org slash bullseye to support your local NPR member station and again that is donate dot NPR dot org slash Bullseye and. Thanks mix with Jesse Thorn is a production of maximum fund dot org and is distributed by NPR. So I'm Jesse Thorn. It's Bullseye Nilda. MARKLE's became part of the Zeitgeist at least here in the United States when we found out about her shoes. Three thousand pairs kept neatly inside a palace in Manila. The cameras found them after. Marcos fled her home in the Philippines. Her husband Ferdinand was is the president of that country for over twenty years and the two worked together closely was arraigned that saw countless human rights abuses the imprisonment and assassination of a political rivals. Billions of dollars stolen and a fourteen year long period of martial law for time the marcoses lived in exile. Ferdinand died in Hawaii. Then in the nineties Imelda returned. She's now a member of the Philippine House of Representatives and she's still crafting her legacy. It's all in the king-maker a new documentary. And that documentaries director Lauren Greenfield might be the perfect person to profile Imelda DEMARCO's Greenfield who is also a photographer has made wealth and power her. Life's work like in the Queen of Verse by which tells the story of a family trying to build old a ninety thousand square foot mansion in Florida ninety thousand or generation wealth a film about materialism and money in the the US in the king-maker Greenfield portrays Imelda Marcos as a smart unflappable and confounding person who is still relevant in Philippine politics takes today is she haunted by her past. Maybe not anyway. Here's a little bit of Imelda in the king-maker is more than a fairy tale. Because it's really unbelievable. I gave birth to what I and I always got my way. Now the the thing and so the past past and that's something season two possibly shouldn't forget it's all there. Lauren Greenfield Greenfield. Welcome to bulls. I am glad to have you on the show. Thank you for having me. So you've made a lot of work about wealth breath and to the extent that I know Imelda Marcos. I know her as like a late. Nineteen eighties early. Nineteen nineties joke about wealth and I wonder why you wanted to make a film about her in particular. Yeah I mean I think it's it's One of these jokes that we learn is no laughing matter. I also came to her with that idea as this kind of icon of materialism resum and that grew out of for the last twenty five years. I've been looking at wealth and materialism in the one percent and inequality in my photography and filmmaking and and so that was what initially brought me to Imelda But what we learn in the film and what I learned over the five years making it is that in many ways the the three thousand pairs of shoes for which he was so famous are a distraction and she's really an incredibly powerful all power broker. There is a money aspect to it but the money is really what brings the power. When did you find that out? And how did you find that. Uh Well I came in actually because of this historic extravagance I as the person who left three thousand pairs of shoes in the palace she had always been kind kind of iconic reference in my work but I read an article about what to me was the ultimate extravagant. She had depopulated a small island in the South South China Sea in one thousand nine hundred seventy six of two hundred and fifty four indigenous families and brought in in their place animals from Africa on a ship a kind of Noah's Ark and this to me was the symbol of the most egregious extravagance because it involved living things and Human Glenn writes and decades of damage So I came into the story thinking it was going to be about the survival of this island after after. They lost their benefactor and had to kind of fend for themselves without any resources. And also the survivor of Imelda. Who I learned had come come back to the Philippines after they fled with people storming the palace and in this article? I also learned that she had gone back back to Manila and had even gone gotten into public office again as a congresswoman. So that's that was kind of the starting point. How did this happen? Hounded added Imelda get back into power. And how did these poor animals survive. Was it always here. Intent to speak directly with DEMARCO. I I thought I WOULD DO I. Yes I always wanted to do an interview and and actually I didn't go until she agreed to do an interview but I didn't know if it would be more than on that but That one interview did open up into more generous access and she allowed me to go round with her. Show Me Manila. Both her Manila and also the kind of Manila that she saw as a very deteriorated lesson Manella Annella than when they were in power it began to be a more Inside access documentary would start a little bit at the beginning or the relative beginning of her story. A how did she meet Ferdinand Marcos who became the president of the Philippines. Yeah I love this story. She was a beauty queen and her being in a beauty pageant is how she met President Marcos he noticed Mr she lived in the province she was she did not. She grew up in a in humble circumstances. She was the poor part of a rich family so she saw something else and wanted. It was very ambitious and she became a beauty queen and that's how he noticed noticed her. I think it was in the first hour. He proposed and they got married in eleven days. That seems bananas to me. And and she described I mean she says in the first twenty minutes in yes and I think that you know he. They were both both strategic in some ways I mean I think she loved him and he was certainly smitten with her beauty and yet it was also a a good strategic marriage. He was from the north. She was from the south. She was extremely charismatic. She Sang which which which? Both singing and beauty goes a long way in the Philippines and so she helped him politically and he got her out of dodge. She left the province went to Manila and was with a man who already had ambitions to be present. At what point did their government become. Come what we know it. As from the time of its fall which is to say like You know Kleptocratic plutocratic all all all of these despotic. All of these adjectives right the dictatorship. I think it was an evolution because when you talk to their friends frank and Mary Mary you terrier who are in the film Mary said at some point things dry rot began to set in. This is not in the film. But that's what she told me. And I think that they started with a certain amount of idealism and The major turning point was in in nineteen seventy two when he declared martial law and the martial law was away to hang onto power and also to it was kind of the nail in the coffin of Kleptocracy they had many cronies Who are operating the biggest businesses in the country? They took over all of the biggest businesses businesses And then under martial law there were many human rights abuses People incarcerated tortured killed no tolerance tolerance for the opposition. They threw Benigno Aquino The opposition leader in jail and then trying to remember what was the year that Benigno Aquino was assassinated. I think it was in nineteen eighty three and then over the next three years. The uprising being really started and people did not want to tolerate it anymore. And then finally in nineteen eighty six there was at election and Cory Aquino the widow of Benigno Aquino one but the Marcos cheated and they said they won and so there was a moment where there were two presidents presidents who declared themselves president and then the Americans who had been propping them up. Just weren't going to tolerate it anymore when you Walk into a situation where you are pointing a camera at a person who is as charismatic and skilled at being a public figure as Imelda Marcos undoubtedly is is. How does it make you change the way you interact with them? Relative to when you point your camera at Joe Blow off the street. Yeah you know it really did fundamentally change the way that I handled her in this film. Because I'm really I used to people telling me the truth. I feel like in my work up to this point. The surprising thing is that these rich and powerful people like David Segal or like Florian home and generation wealth kind of bare their souls and tell the truth in some way that allows us to understand Dan why they do what they do and give them some humanity and give us some empathy for them even sometimes unexpectedly with Imelda Alta Marcos. It was a little bit the opposite that I realized pretty soon into it that she was an extremely unreliable narrator that she was actually spinning her own rewriting of history in ways that did not aligned with any of the historical accounts that I read red or any of the first person witnesses. And we're actually a kind of erasing of history. We heard it in the clip. You played in the beginning when she said the passes the the past in fact. It's no longer there. It's like. She realized that people did not remember the past and they could kind of create their own past erasing the sins Dinh's of martial law and of the corruption of the regime and and so I definitely let her talk and I think it's important for us to hear and understand understand the past and the history that she's Kinda pushing forward but I also realized when it when I knew it wasn't true that I needed both to have the truth in the film and for the audience to be able to decipher and understand what was true and what was not and so I had to you kind of contrast what she said with other voices that were credible voices. Did you have to ask her questions questions that you were uncomfortable asking her. Why was definitely scared to ask her about the facination of Benigno Aquino because People generally thought that she and general there were responsible for it. And it's it's it's It was so kind of a gray just is that ended up bringing down the regime. How did you gird yourself to ask? I'm imagining looking At you know frankly an old woman in front of my camera who is both obviously smart and charismatic and is also somewhat frail and there's she has equality of of frailty is the best word like she just has a quality of frailty and this is this is like unspeakable horror that changed the fate of a nation. Yeah I mean she's not. She's not really frail in the sense that her strength strength is just unbelievable. I mean you're just kind of filled with admiration. Even knowing all the terrible things that she's done by tight her kind of indomitable strength in factual talk about how she never needed any sleep that she would sleep three hours a night but the thing so before I did the first interview I asked William Miller the journalist who introduced me to her. If there was anything that I should not ask like it was the beginning of my project. I wanted to open up access. I didn't WanNa say anything that would offend her. And he said the thing about Imelda Marcos is that he you can ask her anything she is not afraid and it was really true that there was really nothing that threw her off. I mean of course. This is not her first Rodeo. She has had a lot of experience with the international press has been a public figure since she was a young woman. But but it was still amazing how you could kind of ask her anything and she would answer and she would not Fault you for asking. And so when I asked her about the assassination of Benigno Aquino. She just responded without without missing a beat. Why would I do? That would kill him I had nothing against him except that he talked too much. Does she even had a sense of humor when when she is responding to You know this most serious of questions. I WANNA play a clip from the film the king-maker and my guess is Lauren. Greenfield the director of the film and Imelda Marcos constantly is describing in her life and her relationship to the Philippines in maternal terms. And this is this is sort of an example of that. She's talking about her lifestyle which is obviously ostentatious film opens with clips of her passing money unease through the window of her car to kids on the street and She somehow brings it around to her. Maternal qualities what is towards the nation always decides for being excessive. But that is mothering. Got Is the spirit of mothering. I mean you cannot quantify love and spirit and character of mothering. I want only the Philippines. The word when she said in the film what we just heard which is that her ostentatiousness contentiousness or lifestyle is reflective of her boundless love. I was stunned. What what is sitting in the room? And she has another great line where she says Beauty is the extravagance of love. She she has almost like a moral justification for extravagance and her kind of quest for maternal. Hegemony I I mean she's obsessed with mothering for one and to me. That was very interesting because she was an orphan. She lost her mother when she was a little girl and that really marked her and I feel like her early loss of her mother created this kind of pathological obsession with mothering. where she feels is that she is doing good in the world by giving money to people taking care of the sick Getting in public office bringing your whole family into public office and yet the facts bear out. You know certain family that stolen five to ten billion dollars and then rewritten rewritten history. Lying to people about what they've done so they can get back into power but the mothering is very key to the story in the film because in the film we tell the story of her son Bongbong's candidacy for vice president and the way her mother and him and mothering the country. Kind of come together. There in her prince trying to make her prince the new king as the vice president and and in the Philippines being vice president is also so Possible back door to the presidency. And so they have their sights on getting back into the palace and so her mothering of Bongbong is is also the way to get back into power. What's the relationship between the Marcos family and the current president the Philippines Rodrigo Duterte well at the risk of being a spoiler That alliance that connection was really the breaking making news piece of this film. That happened quite late in the process. So do TAE President Rodrigo Detaille One and two thousand sixteen ecksteen in a kind of shocking win that very reminiscent of of how we felt. When trump was elected? I should say reminiscent because it happened. I I and when he won it was really like this repetition of the past of a of a new kind of authoritarian leader. A new strong man that was is really reminiscent of President Marcos but there was a press conference after he was elected where he revealed very unexpectedly. Talk to everybody's shock and surprise that I e the daughter of Ferdinand Marcos had given him money to finance his campaign and that really revealed this alliance which has become Understood since then where the marcoses says help deter come into power we'll wrap up with Lauren Greenfield in a bit after the break. She'll tell me about how a lifetime spent covering wealth has affected had her relationship with money. It's Bullseye for maximum fund dot Org and NPR this message comes from NPR sponsor. smartwater smart water is for the curious drinkers. The ones who are always looking for ways to make things a little bit better. That's why smart water created two new ways to hydrate smartwater alkaline with nine plus Ph and smart water antioxidant with added Selenium. And now you can order smart water by saying Alexa Order. Smart Water Smart Water. That's pretty smart when it's too cold to go out to ICI to make it out of the driveway. Where do you go to to find? Just the right movie just the book just the right show to binge pop culture happy hour from. NPR can help you keep warm and keep up at the same time joining ns twice a week on pop culture happy hour. Hey Gang it's Jesse with a quick reminder. We're in the middle of the holiday season. It's a great time to donate to your local. NPR member station fishing day. The reason you're listening to both and we need their journalism now more than ever go to donate dot. NPR Dot Org Slash Bullseye to give an. Thanks Hey hey if you like your podcast to be focused and well researched and your podcast host to be uncharismatic underneath strangers who have no interest in horses and this is not the podcast for you again. What's your deal deal? I'm emily I'm Lisa. Our show is called geniuses and it's hosts are Horny adult idiots. We discover weird wikipedia pages every episode. We discuss discuss institutional misogyny we ask each other. The dumbest questions and our listeners won't stop sending US pictures of their butts. We have asked them to stop but they also aren't stopping. Join US in baby geniuses every other week maximum fun dot org a Bullseye Jesse Thorn. I'm here with the director. Lauren greenfield she. He made the films generation wealth in the Queen of Versailles her new film. The king-maker is a profile of Imelda. Marcos she's the deposed first lady of the Philippines and now serves in the country's House of Representatives. I feel like there are some really particular aesthetic touch points for your wealth in our culture Like the ones I was thinking about what. What do I think of when I think of the aesthetics of Wealth Reality Television is obviously as a really big one I think Fashion editorial and advertising is a pretty big one and you know in in relatively recent years the world of especially instagram but social media. Generally you know they're all places where the values of wealth such as they are communicated to us and I wonder if when you are are shooting. You know the queen of Versailles or when you're shooting in one of Imelda. Marcos is homes homes or or when you're shooting still photography of you know a rich person in Russia you're aware of those kind of aesthetic addict touchstones in in how the images that you're creating relate to them. Definitely I mean I've always in my photography INC The aesthetics statics of the world of image and advertising and kind of the the seduction of the clothes or the bodies or the tropes oops from advertising in the media and incorporated those into my imagery to both dry in and criticize them in in in generation wealth for example in this twenty five year journey there were certain tropes like the Birkin bag which is five to six digit digit purse. which in cost that's dollars five or six digits of dollars? Yeah and this is a sought after item so sought lot after that there are waiting lists for you know this unimaginably expensive purse and there's one person in in that I photographed who has a closet where there's literally box after box of these birkin bags in every color. I mean I think one of the things that ties together the queen of her sigh and Imelda. Marcos is this kind of aspiration to royalty. This kind of French aristocratic style. Where you know? There's there's gilded furniture and current theam columns and portraiture paintings Commissioned paintings of oneself that we see that in the beginning of the Queen of our side. They've had all of these commissioned paintings of themselves and in the beginning of the king-maker. There's this extraordinary portrait of the Marcos family in one of the palaces that that they built depicted as like mermaid and Merman and the and the children are in a shell in Imelda's hands and and I think you know the through line in all of in all of this work for me is really about aspiration that it's not so much about wealth as about the aspiration to and so you know even a Melda is a little bit of a fake it till you make it and that she begins from the poor part of the rich family and you know is gonNA is GonNa get there and is incredibly ambitious. How do you make a still image that draws on the parts of you know the photography of luxury that are seductive to us That also criticizes yes that culture. I mean that's really the cornerstone of my work. I think that one of the things that I've always done in my photography. And the filmmaking. In a way is kind of show the facade and show the falseness of it And revealed kind of deconstructed the tropes constructed the The s thanks to reveal. What's let's behind editor what's underneath or what's in a way how It promises a something and then does not fulfill on that promise you know. I think in in the queen of Versailles. They're making the biggest house in America and get could've have destroyed along the way and in the financial crisis they're unable to build the house but it also reflects how we all kind of chase is that brass ring an n. kind of what happened to US along the way it in the beginning of the king-maker we see how Imelda Marcos is presenting to camera how she's in a way running the show as the storyteller I begin in an interview. That is very much Like my photographs around her. She's surrounded by priceless paintings. Picasso Cosso painting a lot of gold gold framed paintings gold everywhere on her table and the servants come in and they're kind of her hair. Earn makeup person comes in and so we see her. She asked if how she looks for the camera but she asked and Tagalog so so Presumably we don't understand and then I asked her to look at my camera and she says should I look at you and I say yes and then she looks down and that's the picture that's that's there are some kind of showing around the edges. Both how she's trying to control the story and also how how I'm showing you how she's trying to control the story There's a scene where she has. She's displaying. Hundreds of photographs framed photographs photographs from her glory. Days as first lady with all of the world leaders that she met including people. She says are are called monsters by others. But I really nice people like Saddam Hussein and Ann Chairman Mao and she's got all of these photographs kind of beautifully. He displayed for my camera. And she's going around showing them to me and as she pulls one up like dominoes they start to knock each other over and and fall on the ground and the glass starts to break and she doesn't even pay any attention to it. It's as though it didn't happen and somebody starts on. Her staff starts cleaning it up and our camera shows the guy cleaning it up to but Imelda pays no attention to that and so in a way. That's that's a character. Momon about who she is. She's got everything kind of beautifully displayed and and yet when things go wrong. It doesn't stop her at all in in your movie generation wealth you talk a lot about or or you depict the ways and and in some of your other workers well the ways in which the expressions of wealth are are often compulsions and addictions and in making the film. I thank you found yourself looking at your own compulsions and addictions which are which were primarily around your relationship to making more and better work through you know working more Warren harder. And and you sort of question. The the sustainability of that as as a life particularly as a parent and. I wonder if doing this work on the seems has changed. It's your own relationship to the way you work. And and more broadly the way you live your life in a meaningful way. Well well I felt so what I was doing generation wealth it was incredibly overwhelming and I went through hundreds of thousands of pictures and and It was twenty five years of work and I spent more than five years putting together and I made a book in a museum exhibition and film film and also was working on the king-maker at the same time and it made me really think about my own addiction. Shen to work as I was looking at These kind of great addictions and rise and fall of my subjects mostly around money and beauty and and youth and sexuality and so it just forced me as is an artist kind of contemplating this in my own work to think about how it reflected in my own life and and also to think about how we were all complicit myself included in this kind of culture of access an of kind of nonstop perfectionism and and and in the in the film all of the characters kind of have crashes both the financial crash but also personal crashes where the crashes are also moments of a weakening and I think for me while I was making this film I started interviewing my family remembers and my kids and Began interviewing my kids about their generation their generation of materialism and social media and an and what ended up coming out was in a way. They're critique of me for Working so much you know sometimes at at the expense of not being there as a parent not traveling too much and and really I think not listening not listening to how it affected acted them and I think for all of the characters in the film including myself it. It's the waking up to how your are t t to what's really going on. In my case. It was how I was affecting members of my family. That does change your behavior and that said the film is about addiction and my husband always says who you are as who you've always been and so I can't say that I'm not that Worker worker bee anymore. That's kind of just who I am but I do think that being conscious of the downside of what most people see the as a kind of positive thing and the way that it can negatively impact the people in my life particularly my family is definitely something that I'm much more aware of and I think that awareness affects my actions. Lauren thank you so much for taking all this time to be on. Bullseye was really nice to get to talk. Thank you thank you for having me. Lauren Greenfield her film. The king-maker is in theaters. Now it will be on showtime early next year. That's the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye is produced at maximum maximum fund dot Org World Headquarters Overlooking Macarthur Park in Los Angeles California where this past week of Filipino. American youth group held a rally. You just outside the office only a few hours. Before we recorded our interview about Imelda Marcos our show is produced. By speaking into microphones. Our producer is Kevin Ferguson. Hey Soussan awesome. Brosio is our associate producer. We help from Casey O'Brien production fellows Jordan cowling and Melissa. dwayne are interstitial. Music is by Dan. Wally also known as Dj w our theme song is by the go team thanks to them and their label Memphis Industries for letting US use it and one last thing we've done a lot of interviews. They are shows almost two decades. They're available on our website. Maximum Fun Dot Org. which recently got a refresh looking very nice? We're also on facebook twitter and Youtube. Just search for Bullseye. With Jesse Thorn. Keep up with the show there. I think that's about it just remember. Oh great radio hosts have a signature signed off Bullseye. With Jesse Jesse. Thorn is a production of maximum pun dot org and is distributed by N._p._R..

Imelda Alta Marcos Imelda Philippines Lauren Greenfield Greenfield United States NPR Jesse Thorn Manila president Imelda Marcos Bullseye Jesse Jesse Benigno Aquino Bullseye director Philippine House of Representa Lauren Lauren Greenfield Imelda DEMARCO
Mentally Yours Live

Mentally Yours

41:13 min | 2 years ago

Mentally Yours Live

"Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion energy reliability investment. Our new investment product offers competitive returns, no maintenance fees and flexible online access to your money. Make the reliable investment in reliable energy, the dominion energy reliability investment to find out more. Go online to reliability investment dot com. That's reliability investment dot com. Mentally. Focused on you mentioned that he show regrets mentally ill. Entity. Then to. Mentally. So we've just finished the first, mentally yours. Live a live version of our podcast, mentally, yours, which is a weekly per metre cut it UK vet melon and. Yeah. Well, there was applause and questions that people actually stayed at eight cake, which is good. So, yeah, if you just well, I guess you will just be tuning into this now because the introduction bakery chatty about mental health at work. It is recorded live, and we have an expert panel. It's different from usual. Could you please each introduce yourselves? I a jealous broadcast something's doozy's those CNN those different publications sometimes not all sometimes about look sometimes it's about game with right? And I have been diagnosed with depression, answering Easterns January seventh two thousand seventeen I was ov- midly ios. Explain the build up to my diagnosis and aftermath of the diagnosis work. I've done with mental charities afterwards. So worked with time to change mind and calm those in the campaign with com- last year with Prince William that was ought. He doesn't like being photographed than one side. He's so that's what I am gear. And I wasn't minke yours talking about my social enterprise, which is about creativity and mental health and Dettori about creativity can support mental health written extensively about my own experience PND, and bullying, and I write for Forbes about what place and mental health and run workshops and talks on going shis bias and gender. Tobias racial inequalities around a feminist parenting goes well, Hello, Matthew. Matthew, Tara, shirtless Instagram star, nor really I was at a to achieve magazine. UK's bestselling gay magazine and on the automobile straightjacket, which is mental health. I to go Prince William to appear on the cover of a gay magazine. And he said, and he said don't don't don't on the cover the oncoming out because you love something my wife, which was fun. I'm stranded, very strange experience. But you're talking about t- Matola right for the collagen. And it's weird we straighten with the confessional stepper. I'm a recovering alcoholic. Woo is such a strange thing to go and telling you don't know that because it's not like a massive thing in my life. But that's what we talked about. When I did the cost. So I'm very happy to be. Thank you. I'm Natasha Devon, and my bum is a bit too big for this chess. Sorry, I've just got to write more comfortable now. Hi, hi, everyone. I'm cam. I work in schools and colleges throughout the UK doing lessons with teenagers on mental health and related issues like what he image. I was also a guest on mental yours when my book begins guys being mental came out s-, which is an eighty don't everything to do with mental health. I'm the founder of a campaign could wedge your head out to improve workplace mental health through law change. And I'm also the presenter of a show called naked beach, which I am missing to be hit tonight so event Allen is how much I love you. It's totally fine. Babes continue the confessional. I have depression has bipolar disorder. Oh, yes. Equal in sharing. Our postal troopers. Yeah. It's a cool. We can get started ready call. You're a freelance. And also you've worked a lot of different places without naming names we've discussed. Places getting wrong and right about mental health in the workplace from your experience. There is point. I bring up with my mom about how. Very often. It is the work of the majority to make you feel bad for pointing a line in the sand as if you put it yourself. So I think it's good where we're now in a position where more people going. I don't I can't go to work because health issue that vices biographical and only speak for myself if I want to take a mental health fail Fluck by will still call in sick. And so I have a headache. But I think there's a growing understanding that people what doing that. So things are better, but not that much better. And there is the idea. I'm a freelance. I don't particularly want to be a free and the people I meet in my life. Who have similar conditions are also free dances. And every now, and again, we raise I rose and go, oh, we via choice or are we freed onces because the full-time working environment in the United Kingdom in two thousand nineteen is completely incompatible with living with mental condition. I don't know. I hope the answer is no actually did choose to be that are being. I'm just I guess that. Sometimes people view me as on reliable network Goto place of work every single. But I don't know. And that makes me happy and sad because there's no definitive proof. But there is that lingering drill. So I believe or any bad place. Not because we have great wettest that people look at those conditions, and that we should view mental conditions in the same view conditions on if you if you can't you're going to cause you have a migraine, then obviously if you don't fit to go into work because you off eating depressed, they should be on the Saint Paul. However, I also still think we're in a place where people in the workplace would be more comfortable saying I'm going to because I have a migraine rather than because I just on fill up. So today full reason ex when you give out you're not sure if you'll freelance because of mental health or in benefit for it. Do you think freelancing has benefits of mental health to a big bouncing governor? It's great. I can. I do all the web. I don't get any of the benefits, and I have the freedom to take off time. When I don't feel great to it. However in my head, I don't really have a pension. I don't really have savings. If I take time off to go on hold. It comes up it because I'm my boss. However, I don't have to do the imagined conversation with the big boss and say, I have acuity I I've never had that conversation. It is an imagined one in my head. But I know it's out there on I know it exists. And I know I had that conversation with people who have pretended to not be that evil imagine balls and later on turned out to be one. So I. I once worked company that gave it the big. I am about men's mental health. They plotted all over their publication. We care about men's mental health me. Absolutely believe this. We have a whole campaign about this. And this is what we believe this what we can. They were breaking you walking those make Nestle everyday low time and the staff had to take time off to overwork. And as we now know what play stress can cools mental similar conditions are making us, incredibly depress them. I thought boss. I'm like, sweetie. Sad, and I don't wanna come into work anymore because of the way you make us work. And he just shrug. That's that's just the coalface right now you have to get on with it. And then later on when we were. From positions in less than legal circumstances. One superior may comment unto my social media post going. Oh, yeah. No. You don't like this show, see social media posts? So what's the big deal? The big deal is you've tried to shut my brain. And I hate you. And that's hard because like I said, no, no of any employer. Any bulls right now is views themselves as the views himself as we don't want to hire people with mental conditions. But. That there. And is it scary there, and they don't know. Or is it scary that they're all people that do not? I don't know. And it's a it's an old one to balance. Can we listen to you undo talking about bullying at work because when you came on mental yours before we had a brief chat about that? Obviously bullying can happen to anyone in any workplace and they'd civilly affect mental health. How does it manifest itself work due to tackle it link is a tricky one actually because because it works in quite insecure way, sometimes often, and it's very difficult to prove it's kind of a cycle. Because once you start thinking that you're being bullied, and if you start keeping track, which you're recommended to do you become even more paranoid. And then you just start that cycle and bullying makes the person who's being bullied feel ashamed. And they feel does the nature willing the bleed person feels like it's their fault for being bullied if I could just stand up to them if I could just do a bit more. Maybe I'm not doing enough work. Maybe I'm not coming into work at regularly. Maybe I'm not perform. Warming my job to that most or whatever those kind of things and willing alway also manifests not not in quite a direct attack. But also a lot of things which I call micro aggressions or micro in validations, which are these these might seemingly very minor commenced, but they affect a lot and it's about tiny things it can often be taken his jokes or humor can be passed off like that. But they affect the mental health of the person who's being who's being targeted. So yes, bullying is quite a tricky one. And I think from speaking from my own personal experience. It affected my mental health quite a lot a lot which meant that. But it was very difficult to talk about it. Because you're in a very senior position new think people when you're in a seated position, you don't get bullied. It's only happens in playgrounds, and it I can't get bullied because I'm in this position of power or whatever of privilege, but yes, these I think it it has to cheat about about about place culture. And I talk a lot about implicit bias and unconscious bias, and you were talking about these people who these bosses who carry the stigma still there around mental health, and even though this tokenistic efforts are on mental health still exist about maybe should more about mental health. But people don't talk about it more openly, bullying something people don't talk about openly either. They don't talk about migration it has to be proper leadership. Which takes charge. It about changing the culture of the workplace to become more positive about training and -opoly talking about these things and creating a safe space where people are not judged for this. But the these conversations can happen. I think how we suppose our colleagues yet. I think it's about being good allies too. So I always say that if you see somebody being attacked or being targeted or even in meetings, like sometimes I bought with organizations with women or with many even who feel like they're being ignored or unacknowledged for the work. They're doing and that can amount to blink as well. But the guidelines around bullying is very very vague. And you can't really prove it. If you go to Charlie not s- concert, I'm being bullied because it's very difficult to prove. So it's about the about again training, and it's about talking, and it's about people being aware that they can stand up to it can be good allies. They could support them. You can go and talk. Talk to them in a safe space, creating these kinds of workshops may be people can voice their concerns are creating a space where kind of a feedback loop. Some somehow that the people can talk about what's happening to them how he can make. So it becomes more participate in collaborative poor process in the workplace rather than something that okay, we are just working here. Like robots to just do what we are told to do byles of like not your place to speak out for somebody. Because again, it kind of dehumanizes that other person. If you stunned speaking for that person is kind of saying that you don't have a ways, but you may be going have coffee with them. If you try and talk to them about it and say you struggling or just empathy. I think can do great Mattie, even kind of on both sides, you've been editor remarriage people then so working in history. Your own struggles war. Have you seen from both sides? What did you find challenging? What did you learn about managing people with mental health issues, you panicked? I trust you because I think even. I was filling Koepenick hearing these Tokyo about this stuff. I haven't two years, and I was thinking I don't know that much about this energised this thing I relate so much about the executive working. I feel I probably couldn't work in office at the moment. I I do feel like have an exotic disorder. I'd have wear mislead. The whole time is not the defining thing in my life. But it was really really hard work in office. When I was the editor. And also when I was there, which brings this whole other group of problems, it's really difficult. I think talking about these issues. So hard. It's opening Pandora's box. It's like how do we become nicer as a society is one of these really hard questions unit? When I think of some of the bigger companies like run took him about GBD's, mental health and stuff and let banks and corporations and that massive companies with know, hundreds of millions of pounds stuff unipolar. Nice advance for the GPT's society or just the mental health. And you'd feel those times companies are great and those catering, and it's nice. I care about people have discussions in the managers will come. And sometimes I get the feeling, oh, you're talking about the stuff about quality and making people feel are able to be who they are working to hide in the closet and soon, and then I think well, how'd you actually treat them actually the general e working drought Astor hard or just making people feel inadequate working really really hard. So there's not level. Also my experience managing. The mid level business for sixteen seventeen people, and it was really really hard because you know, sitting here now thinking, yes, I want to people in the mental health. I was run off. My face was really really hard keeping the magazine guy made me really struck me ill, actually. And so and there were times someone who was drinking in the office. That was really hard. I don't know how how humanity that tells you how to manage that was re difficult wants to help him. But also he need to be responsible Bosina that situation. So it's really really hot. And so to say to people I love the idea at phone up and say over mental health coming in opposition to what what hell how am I going to get this done? It's really stressful. And I guess maybe saying earlier, the these are kind of to to why discussions about the way the world works like politics capitalism and just just the way it works. Because I do think we need to reorder the the way we think is really interesting. The last year's the discussions you leading and all about mental health and the roles. No the rest is opening apparent box. Because so many people have mental health problems. I mean, it just everywhere you look at families in workplaces. And even things you might not even surly no problem with my uncle problem. I I had no idea, you know, like lots of people remember drinking as much as I was all worse than than I was. It was hard to confront and also have experienced, you know, this idea that you can be open. Quite hard told a couple of staff members when I went into recovery about it thinking that supposedly thing I felt like they they should know right about in the magazine and said, he wanted them very judgmental about found after it's another case someone who's who's in recovery, and he had told his bosses he's been sober for few years, and he told his bosses and Christmas party he relapsed drunk massillon dust, but because they knew he was an alcoholic. They thought him, and they wouldn't have them if it's been a general person just drunker party. So these are really really complicated problems all of us in position again. Now, if you're leading team people discussing is really really important, but I also think it's been interesting with my book. Sometimes I may be people I think LGBT mental specifically not really been talked about before. Because Jay coach has been very much on the defensive because we attacked, you know, and. It'd be illegal guy in not long ago. So I get quite strong actions. From people is really amazing people talking about laws, we make sense to me at some people on notice that then define themselves by are living with this conditional living with that condition. And I sometimes worry, whether you know. Is not a good is a good place to be can it be can be too much to be focusing too much on that like like, I said, you know, a recovering alcoholic, but it's such a strong word does not define me to think about it today. Life anyone five years over its thing. I do, but you know, it's not the overriding thing, I guess talking about it. But just trying to allow people to be less stressed and able to talk about issues and not forced to fill in the if they make a mistake. They are going to be thought at my shoe, which I think is interesting signing somebody's problems come from from us. It might thing was that I felt so bad growing up. I thought I have to be perfect at work. That was the way perfectionism I'll be that. Our really hard all in principle is not not made me ill too. I think maybe just you're just discussing doing is very positive important thing over here said about tokenistic gestures versus. The actual changes so open to all the what's the difference? How can we tell the difference between things that are just done to say mental health friendly and one of the concrete things that businesses can do to make sure that because I have. I would think that what I think something that I touched on just now is rather than focusing just on mental health creating these wellness days or creating a yoga to your comes on. Or these kind of things are good to support mental health, but need to think about kind of systematic underlying issues that are affecting the mental health at work in the first place because mental health can be because of work and you touch on that about the stress and anxiety. And it's about that culture that is created in it, I know from academia myself as being a woman in stem and engineering being woman of color again. There was so much pressure to prove myself. And so I had to work doubly hard than anybody else to prove myself, and I was a mud single parent. And so again, that's kind of biases. I had to show Noah that doesn't affect my work in any way. So I think it's about a workplace, which is personalized to individuals. We can't have fixed. Template a cutout that you can impose, and I don't know how that will work in large organizations intensity need to change the law. Yes. So this is actually really personally at the moment because I'm a very good friend of mine's ex partner recently just last week to his life, and I spoke to her on the phone today. And she was saying the all over social media people are talking about him and saying, oh, you know, we just need to reach out to each other. And you're maybe we should have a day week where we will talk about mental health. And she said it's making me feel like crap because it's making me feel like as his friend. I didn't talk to him. But I did I talked to him all the time about his mental health, and sometimes just your friends checking in with you isn't enough the structure the help has to be there. And so the where's your head out campaign? It's it's to get parity between mental health and physical health for first aid that has to be a provision for physical health first aid in all workplaces. So if you cut yourself on ambulance or whatever somebody knows the protocol. All you can go on a mental health fest. Aid course, and it will teach you if your colleague is having a panic attack or they're exhibiting extreme stress, or even if they're suicide it'll it teaches you what to say what not to say, what is appropriate to recommend in terms of of help and support that's not going to cure, mental illness. There's a lot of evidence to show that the first person that reaches out to you. Or you talk to that attitude can be really instrumental in your recovery pathway, but I'm not saying that this is going to to magically solve everything. But what I am saying is that it would be a good start in power t that we keep being promised by government, and the government keep using this argument, and they use it in relation to a law things, and it makes no sense. So they the first time I became aware of it. They said we're not going to ring-fence mental health funding because some local thirties might want to spend more than what they're given. And it will become a ceiling. Now, we know that in fifty. Percent of cases, local on spending the amount that that given on for mental health provisions. We know that for children and young people's mental health. It's about five pounds per young person who needs mental health care. It's nowhere near enough. But they're saying, well, you know, they might want to spend more. So we don't want it to become a ceiling with mental health. First aid. Their argument is there's lots of employers out there who are doing more than just mental health first aid. So if we make mental health first aid mandatory now become a floor. They're obsessed ceilings and floors these people become a floor. And so we have this situation where there are some people out there and just like you said, they tend to be the small to medium size enterprises who that bodies really get it at very invested in in mental health, and and they're getting law other people being actively bullied for having mental health issues at work, and there's absolutely no consistency. And that's why think structural change law. Change is the only way that we're going to begin to to achieve that first of all. We need to festival change change. The Laura I think around mental state or anu so sick days and the way that we've you that. I also think culturally I mean, we've talked about perfectionism and we've talked about stress I'm actually in the process of of writing another book at the moment and it's four teenagers. And the idea was I I was trying to explore say ven diagram if wellness here wellbeing head and academic achievement is hair. I thought that must be an overlap. There must be if it was then diagram a little sliver there where the where the two I've alive, and then very quickly discovered through my research is those two who sit on top of each other. Because in fact stress is is meant to be a short term mechanism. It was for when we were living kind of tribal existence when we're being chased by predators. And you get this little cortisol injection, which is meant to feel uncomfortable. It's meant to spur you into physical action to dissipate that feeling now with very sedentary. We're saying desks allow us and we consider. Currently stress which means that we're getting these regular injections of cortisol which build up and build up and build up and over time that not only juice feelings of depression, it impairs your cognitive ability. It stops you from remembering things it stops. You from being able to make decisions you'll thinking becomes fuzzy. So if you are overworking, your employees, it is completely counterproductive. I think we need to stop fetish ising overwork because you know, that like, oh, I was in the office until two AM, and I got four hours sleep the one floor of one prepared to admit to isn't it? We should stop applauding that all of us. I think a longtime those kinds of work is there. Have you wake up? You got the job that things where you work out an issue, go home, and we know the reports about how what life is completely smashed right now, we're all doing overtime getting paid overtime benefits of commode in being crushed to Libyan. And when you say, what can we do to fix the place? We need to realize what? Therapy therapy is therapy doing the best times. So that mental is when I worked for a company here is some healthcare. You get a hundred pounds for whatever reason. Sore therapists are very time enough kept doing that. Even though I've changed my own all this is what I needed not a banner or biz on a Friday or a ping pong table. And what not and I'm I'm really a very very conscious of that. I'm talking about mental issues and I'm in bookstore in west London. And I'm wearing like losses like this. And I'm talking like this, and this voice, I'm aware of my massive privileges. Have allowed me to come to this point every allies mental of happened on the work of able to reconcile myself on the one I always there is. By winter all the Craig schools in the correct things. I didn't realize what was going on in my life and how his therapy and I needed proper therapy any proper help to solve issues. I had until it all went to narrow and. I spent time playing rugby I spend a lot of time. I used to be here. That's a lot of time growing up not a gray area of London and took like didn't have those advantages. My dear is when you have friends that got you make sometimes crime. Would you make? I just don't know. But crying dairy something clearly that and you how do you help song reconcile something? They kinda retinas out within themselves because there is very very poor equipment given to them from age five. And yeah, it is Jesus he pulled into the problem is capitalism. But it is right. I work with teenagers. And I put the teenagers in charge. They'd be better than the law. Someone said one of my main problems with like. Patriarchal capitalism is that you've had over two thousand years to create a system wide you create one. So disappointing that beats up eighty percent of people. Yeah. This this current system we live in sucks, right? Unless you have a lot of money all went to the right school or no the right person. You will be to some level inconvenience in life, unless you look the right way or how their money there is something in life is going not all ready, and we'll push you back and push when pull will depend on. How many you can make do whatever there's a very very good MIT study. That says if you're in the United States, it will take twenty years of correct decisions to work your way out of poverty in the United States twenty years of correct decisions that you hear about how people living in poverty, basically have higher rates of. So twenty is the maybe maybe maybe your kids won't grow up in a situation where that yeah. And then every now, and again, someone comes along and just take something I care about for me in England as well about statistics about people living in poverty, and then sort of as how much highway is mental health issues. And then people's who now is it is it really them surprise. Those things where it's very hard to conceptualize because it's just if you're gonna pay right? So if you know about the monkey spare how your brain can only really count one hundred fifty people almost when you come yourself. So when someone tells me twenty thousand people hit something cool that sounds like a big number might brain now like football. So I got twenty thousand people is that football stadium over there. Every man woman in child enough stadium. He's the pressed that's a lot of people. What are we doing? And that's a way of better conceptualizing and explaining stuff at people. And when you read reports about government. Oh, yeah, we're really trying things and more people in work. But no, I know you how you fudge starts to work, and you won't one hour is therefore deemed fit to on your. That's not good. And then you understand that. Nice late. Let it out. Swearing sports is very hard for me to be positive and happy about mental and the idea of mental from the web place when I see so many people in power not give shit. And I went from going. Why don't you give a shit realizing, oh your entire life you've created structures? So you never have to interact with someone who is affected by this. You're not giving the shit is the point the cruelty is the point is a common matcher for all of the left wing politics. I found quite interesting. Why is it that the government keep kind and just funding on oh, never mind? Going watch the cruelty is the point is a distraction to stop you from doing the things you want to do because that is what leaving. Leaving with the mental condition can sometimes like and I'm aware. My depression is distraction from the self. I want to I want to be happy I won't to ice cream and enjoy a summer day angle. That's nice. I wanna have greater reasons to live thing. Go a kinda wanna see game of thrones. I want to be able to sit in an office from Monday to Friday, cool. I want to be able to be complimented on something. Good and believe it. The mental stuff distracts me from that. And it makes it hard for me to accept those things and half me to live life the way, I want live my life. And how I reckon light reconcile that. And solve that requires help. And that help is being held by people that should know better. But don't for reasons that made me furious. And how he fixed that for quite direct action ready? I was just going to say, yeah. People don't give shade in Richard. Because sometimes don't know how to shit maybe to shit, but coming back to the whole notion of mental health in the world place and talking what pressure exiled, he and stress. I just wanted to say I think it's about not about the workplace the of work, which you say about how we work. I think we need to look at that. And then coming back to freelance is sometimes seen as kind of panacea of to mental health people like me or others who think or I can work in the system, and I am very anxious and can't go in face people. And don't get the support. I'm just going to work for myself because I can sit on the sofa and watch Netflix when I don't feel like what king, and it's absolutely fine. But I realized it is the solution because still so stressed. I worked were three in the morning, and I don't have people to talk to loneliness huge issue and your self employed entrepreneur, and I think we need to talk. More about that kind of the way we work as well. And it's about all the things on social media that people are working so much and producing so much all the pressures that it creates. Well. So I think it's a about. Yes. About the way we work is beneath to revaluate. Can I ask each of you? Now, what do you think we can be doing to prove mental health in the workplace will Natasha mean, I think is interesting when we talk about freelances because I actually found the the opposite to be true in so far as particularly at the beginning of a freelance journey you very much this mentality of I'm gonna make haywire the sunshines, and every piece of work that comes my way, I have to grab it because I don't know in six months time, whether I'll still have that work, and then it's really difficult to let go of that mentality. So you find yourself going just weren't have a holiday this year or I'll just work through this weekend. And I find the I've put more pressure on myself than any boss I've ever had. And it's interesting. There's a guy called Dr Thomas Curren who has just done a Ted talk on perfectionism, and it's great recommended to to everyone. But what his research find is the higher you school on a perfectionism scale the more vulnerable. You oughta mental health problems and perfectionism the way you would know if you're a perfectionist is things like having a constant kind of self. Bashing ref rhetoric feeling like nothing you ever do is good enough constantly comparing yourself to others other people's opinion of you being very instrumental in how you define yourself. And also sometimes not partaking in things that you suspect you won't be good at because that would be devastating for yourself esteem. So nothing has intrinsic value to to a perfectionist. They have to kind of be the best. And I think we're all on a scale of that. And what his research shows is that from earliest moments, we are born into a culture, which is relentlessly persuading us that we are not good. And that we need to consume in order to rectify that. And that is what starts the perfectionist mindset from a really early age, basically as soon as we are as exposed to advertising and capitalism. So really, you're I know we keep coming back to this. But the only proper solution is revolution. What would you like what places manages to differently practical level to everyone stopping in your launch desk by get up? Go to another desk eat their eat outside when you know, it's called Britain's oppressive, but your environment, though, things one thing that I do that improves my workplace anytime. I get a compliment. I have a little folder on my desktop screengrabs. Emails on goes good job. Oh, tell me as really good thing, you did screen rabbit, and I stick it in a folder anytime impulses. Oh my God. I'm crying my job. I'm competent. I can just go click compliment. All right now. I'm I was good for ago. Cool cool one thing we're talking about like time. And this is a big problem. We have right now. I'm freelance and. I keep coming in. Kensington talk about mental Anita couch. This with my job is universal. But man is not as time tons of people over what from top to bottom there on the paid. They're trying to figure stuff out. You will not earn your manager respect by just sitting there and working harder. 'cause you're manage does not have enough time to notice you sitting there and working harder powering through and going through ever pain is going on right now if you will in a job, I don't like what's going on your job, your manager respect you more by going. We need to talk because if that manager the manager Paul of their job is to manage you manage your dreams, and how it can make you less unhappy. I'm currently doing that with an employment. You can't keep doing this me as gonna leave. That is a thing you need to do something. That breed makes me angry is when all these companies are like a big family work is your family. Your family is your family. Your family doesn't have to be your blood relations. You find these networks of people you make your friends the coaches, whoever you're the church, whoever place go to when people say work is your family. That's right. And we spend so much time here that you don't spend any time with anyone else. Now that is. Trick. Or maybe like, that's fine. But when when that happens be aware of Bill were of the company that talks about how work is about doesn't have an HR department be aware of the place that gives you free pier on the Friday, but doesn't give you healthcare beware of the place that doesn't give you travel. I mean, it is. But once the talk so much about how maybe maybe in six months, you get to the New York office be aware of things like that be aware of the call is at be aware of EU. Stuffing law that you can't do a night shift and then a morning shift back toback you need eight hours to your job. Because if you keep doing that you be redesigned say the press, but like so sad. These things you need to be aware of something. I talk about a lot. When you go into any company is something that we used to do at university to grant that system. So you're a first year you've got one person above you in second year after you as you're at and then above you, you have to people who are responsible for you and a couple other people. So they're all three people above you that no will you are what you do whether or not you had breakfast today. Companies don't force those networks anymore because companies need to just fill in the churn into things that new if that happens you have to go through yourself, and all of these things on is you have to be responsible to you for yourself to a degree. I cannot. Saying I kind of come and die for you. Unfortunately. One of my big thing is I'm a black man which. I am the only black man in this room fun. This to me a lot. So I I have a network on my phone of black men who to my job because when I guess out and go is this job for me. I can't do this job. Is this job? Does this like black men doing what they do? I can find black men and people that look like me to go. I'm like five years old you you just doing the same thing those doing bugging five years ago. It's fine. If you are a minority in a what place I feel as if you're minority state is is somehow impeding you making you feel bad. Find someone to mental you just attached yourself like a limpet to person because if you don't cough yourself and don't off the people around, you know, one else will write society got smashed the pieces by terrible, terrible governments and United need to reforge. Some and to do it you need to roll up your sleeves go out in the world, and basically be like nine. Nice to each other which is hard because there's a lot of fear in this world, and it can be so easy to just do your one thing and go to work every single day. What really hard at your lunch I desk 'cause really really hard. 'cause you want to keep your job. You don't get sacked because we're not Trump crystal. I think that's all time for so we don't completely piss off Otis inside. I'm sorry. Huge huge. Chose. Mentally.

depression United Kingdom Natasha Devon Prince William gay magazine migraine Matthew CNN cortisol United States t- Matola UK Woo editor founder Allen PND Nestle London
Mentally Yours Live

Mentally Yours

41:14 min | 2 years ago

Mentally Yours Live

"In today's world. It seems like just about everybody wants intention, but for most of us simply feeling heard is all that matters, especially when it comes to our finances. That's what you'll get it. BBN T. We give our clients the attention they deserve. We take the time to listen and work with you. So you can live your best financial life BBN teeth. Always see is you BBN team member FDIC. Focus on you meant he show regrets. Mentally. Entity. Then bentiu. Men today. We've just finished the first, mentally yours. Live a live version of our podcast, mentally yours. Which is a weekly cost metro credit u k at melon, and yeah, it went well, there was applause in questions that people actually stayed at eight eighth cake, which is good. So yeah, if you just well, I guess you will just be -tudents is now because he's the introduction. They can chatty about mental health at work. It is recorded live, and we have an expert panel. It's a bit different from usual. Could you please each introduce yourselves? I a Jonasson broadcast something's doozy's those CNN those different publications sometimes not all sometimes. Sometimes it's about game, right? And I have been diagnosed with depression, answering Easterns January seventh two thousand seventeen I was of mid Leo's. Explain the build up to my diagnosis and immediate aftermath of the diagnosis work. I've done with charities off to it. So what time to change mind and calm those and the best campaign with com- Bossia with Prince William that was ought. He doesn't like being photographed than one side. He's so that's what I am gear. And I wasn't mentally yours. Talking about my social enterprise, which is about creativity and mental health and Dettori about creativity can support mental health written extensively about my own experience with PND and believing and a writer Forbes about what place and mental health. And I Don what ships and talks on on going shis bias and gender by. His racial inequalities and feminist parenting goals as well. Hello, Matthew, Matthew, Todd, shirtless, Instagram style? No, really, I was at a to achieve magazine UK's bristling, gay magazine, and on the book straightjacket, which is GT mental health to Prince William to appear on the cover of a gay magazine. And he's and he said don't don't on the cover the incoming out because you love something my wife, which was fun. It's a strange very strange experience. But you're talking about GT Matola right for the go. And it's weird straighten. The confessional step. I'm a recovering alcoholic. Woo is such a strange thing to go in telling you don't know that because it's not like a massive thing in my life. But that's what we talked about. When I did the cost. So I'm very happy to be thinking Natasha Devon, and my bum is a bit too big for this chess. Sorry, I've just got to write more comfortable now. Hi, hi, everyone. I'm Evan campaign. I work in schools and colleges throughout the UK doing lessons with teenagers on mental health and related issues like what he image. I was also a guest on mentally yours. When my book begins guys being mental came out s-, which is an eight is it on everything to do with mental health. I'm the founder of a campaign could wedge your head out to improve workplace mental health through law change. I'm also the presenter of show naked beach, which I am missing to be hit tonight so events Ellen how much I love you. It's totally fine. Babes continue the confessional. I have OCD depression has bipolar disorder. Equal and sharing our postal troopers. Yeah, it's a cool. We started ready called you'll a freelancer. Also, you've worked of different places without naming names, we've discussed places getting wrong and right about mental health in the workplace from your experience. There is point. We might. About how? Very often. It is the work of the majority to make you feel bad for pointing a line in the sand as if you put it yourself. So I think it's good where we're now in a position where? Paret won't people going? I don't Congo to work because issue that vices a little bio graphical and only speak for myself, if I want to take a mental health fail Fook why we'll still call in sick and say a headache. But I think there's a growing on the stunning that people doing that. So things are better, but not that much better. And there is the idea. I'm a freelance. I don't particularly want to be a freelance and the people I meet in my life. Who have similar conditions also freelances and every now, and again, we raise I rose and go, oh, we freed by choice or are we freed onces because the full-time working environment. In two thousand nineteen is completely incompatible with living with mental condition. I don't know. I hope the answer is no I choose to be instead of being I'm just I guess sometimes I'm their full people on reliable and therefore Goto place of work every single. But I don't know. And that makes me happy and sad because there's no definitive proof. But there is that lingering drill. So I believe or any place not because we have great wettest that people kept mental conditions, and that we should view mental conditions in the same view conditions on if you if you can't go into it because you're a migraine, then obviously if you don't go into work because you off eating depressed, they should be on the same Paul. However, I also still think we're in a place where people in the workplace would be more comfortable saying I'm going to because I have a migraine rather than because I just don't feel up. So today full reason ex I think when you're talking about you're not sure if you'll freelance because of mental health or in benefit for it. Do you think freelancing has benefits of mental health to a big bouncing governor? It's great. I can. I do what I don't get any of the benefits in the I have the freedom to take off time. When I don't feel great to it. However in my head, I don't really have a pension. I don't really have savings. If I take time off to go on hold. It comes up because I'm my own boss. However, I don't have to do the imagined conversation with the big boss and say I have coupons -iety. I I've never had that conversation. It is an imagined one in my head. But I know it's out there. I know it exists. And I know I've had that conversation with people who have pretended to not be that evil imagine bowls and later on turned out to be one. So I I once worked company that gave it the big I am about men's health. They plotted all over the publication though. Yep. We care about men's mental health me up. Sweet believe this. We have a whole campaign about this. And this is what we believe in this. What we care. And they were breaking you walking those make Nestle everyday low time and the staff had to take time off to overwork. And as we now know what stress can calls, mental similar conditions are making us incredibly depress them. I thought boss. I'm like, sweetie. Sad, and I don't wanna come into work anymore because of the way you make us look and he just shocked. That's that's just the coalface right now you have to get on with it. And then later on when we were from oppositions in less than legal circumstances. One superior may comment unto my social media post going. Oh, yeah. No. You don't like this show social media POS? So what's the big deal? The big deal is you've tried to shut my brain. And I hate you. And that's hard because like I said, no, no employee. I don't think any employer any boss right now is views themselves as the views themselves as we don't want to hire people with mental conditions. But. That they're. And is it scary there, and they don't know. Or is it scary that? There are people that do I don't know. And it's a it's a one to balance. Can we move onto you undo said talking about bullying at work because when you came on mental yours before we had a brief chats about that. Obviously bullying can happen to anyone in any workplace. Unlike civilly affect mental health, how does it manifest itself work? Can we do to tackle X link is a tricky one actually because because it works in quite incidents ways, sometimes often, and it's very difficult to prove it's kind of a cycle. Because once you start thinking that you being bullied, and if you start keeping track, which you're recommended to do you become even more paranoid. And then you it just starts that cycle and bullying mix the person who's being bullied feel ashamed. And they feel that's the nature bullying. The bleed person feels like it's their fault for being bullied. We if I could just stand up to them if I could just do a bit more. Maybe I'm not doing enough work. Maybe I'm not coming into work that regularly. Maybe I'm not perform. Warming my job to that most or whatever those kind of things and willing all also manifests not not in quite a direct attack. But also a lot of things which I call micro aggressions, micro in validations, which are these these might seemingly very minor commence, but they affect a lot and it's about tiny things with can often be taken his jokes or humor can be passed off like that. But they affect the mental health of the person who's being who's being targeted. So yes willingness is quite a tricky one. And I think from speaking from my own personal experience. Defected, my mental health quite a lot a lot which meant that. But it was very difficult to talk about it because you're in a very senior position. And you think oh people when you're in a seated position, you don't get bullied. It's only happens in playgrounds, and it I can't get bullied because I'm in this position of power or whatever of privilege, but yes, if these I think, it's it's it has to about be about the birthplace culture. And I talk a lot about implicit bias and unconscious bias in. You were talking about these people who these bosses who carry the stigma still there around mental health, and even though this tokenistic efforts are on mental health still exist about maybe should do more about mental health. But people don't talk about it more openly, bullying something people don't talk about openly either. They don't talk about migrations. It has to be proper leadership. Which takes charge. It's about changing the culture of the workplace to become more positive about training and -opoly talking about these things and creating a safe space where people are not judged for this. But the these conversations can happen. I think an how can we support our colleagues yet? I think it's about being good allies too. So I always say that if you see somebody being attacked or being targeted or even in meetings like sometimes I've worked with organizations with women or with many even who feel like they're being ignored or unacknowledged for the work. They're doing and that can amount to bullying as well. But the guidelines are on bullying is very very vague. And you can't really prove it. If you go to HR, not scanty I'm being bullied because it's very difficult to prove. So it's about the it's about again training, and it's about talking, and it's about people being aware that they can stand up to it. Can we could allies they could support them? You can go and talk. Talk to them in a safe space, creating these kinds of workshops may be people can voice their concerns are creating a space where kind of a feedback loop. Some somehow that the people can talk about what's happening to them how he can make. So it becomes more participation in collaborative poor process in the workplace rather than something that okay, we are just working here. Like robots have to just do of your torch to bows of feel like it's not your place to speak out for somebody. Because again, it kind of dehumanizes that other person. If you're stunned speaking for that person is kind of saying that you don't have a wise, but you can may be going have coffee with them. Maybe try and talk to them about it and say you struggling or just empathy. I think can be a great way to Matthew. You've been kind of on both sides you've been editor couldn't manage people. Then. So working industry your own struggles. What have you seen from both sides? What did you find challenging? What did you learn about managing people with mental health issues? You putting I trust because I think you. Yeah. You've experienced both sides. I was filling Koepenick she just hearing these talk about this stuff because. Worked in an office two years. And I was thinking I don't know that much about this energised this thing I relate to so much about the exile working at home. I feel I probably couldn't work in office at the moment. I I do feel like have an exile disorder. I don't wear. It must leave. The whole time is not the defining thing in my life. But it was really really hard work. You know, when I was not the the editor. And also when I was the which brings this whole of a group of problems, it's really difficult. I think talking about these issues. Is so hard. It's opening Pandora's box. It's like how do we become nice as a society is one of these really hard questions unit? You know, what I mean when I think of you know, some of the big companies around Tokyo about LGBT issues and mental health and stuff at banks and corporations, and that massive companies with, you know, hundreds of millions of pounds that stuff, and they nice advance for the BT society or just for mental health, and you'd feel the law those times companies a great, and it feels like catering, and it's nice, and they care about people have discussions in the managers will come. And sometimes I get the feeling, oh, you know, you're talking about the stuff about quality and making people feel are able to be who they are working off to hide in the closet and soon, and then I think well, how do you actually treat them actually today general that you working with ASTA harder or just making people feel adequate that not working really really hard? So there's that level. But also, you know, my experience managing. Did you do a mid level business without a number sixteen seventeen people, and it was really really hard because you know, sitting here now and thinking, yes, I want to put people in the mental health. I was run off my fate. It was really really hard keeping the magazine guy made me really strip me ill, actually. And so and there were times that was someone who was drinking in the office. That was really hot. I don't know how how you manage that tells you how to manage that was redefined as I wanted to help him. But we'll say he need to be responsible. You know, Boston that situation. So it's really really hard. And so to say to people I love the idea of people being up and say over having mental Health Day coming in my position, what hell are you doing? How am I gonna get this done? It's really stressful. And I guess maybe as saying earlier, the these are kind of into to why discussions about the way the world works not to want to sound like she's hissy politics capitalism. And just just the way it works. Because I do think we need to reorder the the way we think is really interesting. The last year's the discussions that you guys are leading and all about mental health, and you know, the roles. No the rest of is opening apparent doors box because so many people have mental health problems. I mean, it just everywhere you look here in families in workplaces. And even things you might not even this assembly. No, a problem with my uncle ho problem. I I had no idea, you know, like, lots of people Romy were drinking as much as I was all worse than than I was. You know, it was hard to confront. I also have experience of you know, this idea that you can be open. It was quite hard to a total couple of stuff. I'm when I went into recovery. Abouts it thinking that it was a positive thing. I felt like that they should know writes about the magazine and seventy one of them was very judgmental about found out afterwards. Another case, I want to know who's who's in recovery, and he had told his bosses he'd been in sight by for a few years, and he told his bosses and Christmas party, he relapsed drunk a little bit messy, but they disaster. But because they knew he will an alcoholic. They thought him, and they wouldn't have fired him if he just been general postage just drunk party. So these really really complicated problems for all of us were in that position again. Now, if you're leading team people's discussing is really really important, but I also think it's been interesting with my book. Sometimes I beat people I think LGBT mental specifically. Really been talked about before because day coach has been very much on the defensive because we in attacked, you know, and you know, it'd be legal to be in. Oh, no. So I get quite strong actions from people, which is really amazing people say, oh, you know, talking about Las you make sense to me this some people noticed that then define themselves are living with this conditional living with that condition. And I sometimes worry, whether you know, it's not a good is a good place to be can it be going to be too much to be focusing too much on that like like, I said, you know, a recovering alcoholic, but it's such a strong word does not define me. So I don't think about it might stay laugh anyone Flavius over. It's thing. I do. But you know, it's not the overriding thing, I guess talking about it. But just trying to, you know, allow people to be less stressed, and and able to talk about issues and not forced to fill it. You know, if they make mistake, they are going to be thought at my issue, which I think is interesting that signing somebody's problems come from from us, it my thing was that. I felt so bad growing up. I thought I have to be perfect. So at work that was the way perfectionism. I'll be there. Mid not already hard all in principle is not that made me ill too. So I think maybe just yeah. Just discussing doing is pretty positive important thing said about the tokenistic gestures versus the actual changes. So kind of open to all of you. What's the difference? How can we tell the difference team things just on to say, we're mental health friendly and one of the actual concrete things that businesses can do to make sure they look happy. I would think that what I think something that I touched on just now rather than focusing just on mental health creating these wellness days or creating a yoga to your comes on. Or these kind of things are good to support mental health, but need to think about the systematic underlying issues that are affecting the mental health at work in the first place because mental health can be because of work and you touch on that about the stress and anxiety. And it's about that culture that is created in it, I know from academia myself as being a woman in stem and engineering being woman of color again. There was so much pressure to prove myself. And so I had to divert doubly hard than anybody else to prove myself, and I was mud single parent. And so again, that's kind of biases I had to sure no that doesn't affect my work in any way. So I think it's about a workplace, which is personalized to individuals. We can't have fixed. Plitt a cutout that you can impose, and I don't know how that will work in large organizations intention to change the law. Yes. So this is actually really pertinent me at the moment because a very good friend of mine's ex partner recently just last week took his life, and I spoke to her on the phone today. And she was saying that all over social media people are talking about him and saying, oh, you know, we just need to reach out to each other. And you're maybe we should have a day week where we will talk about on mental health. And she said it's making me feel like crap because it's making me feel like as his friend. I didn't talk to him. But I did I talked to him all the time about his mental health, and sometimes just your friends checking in with you isn't enough the structure the help has to be there. And so the whereas your head out campaign. It's it's to get parity between mental health and physical health for first aid that has to be a provision for physical health first aid in all workplaces. So if you cut yourself on ambulance or whatever somebody knows the protocol. All you can go on a mental health. First aid course, and it will teach you if your colleague is having a panic attack or they're exhibiting extreme stress, or even if it's a Seidel it teaches you what to say what not to say, what is appropriate to recommend in terms of of help and support that's not going to cure, mental illness. There's a lot of evidence to show that the first person that reaches out to you. Or you talk to that attitude can be really instrumental in your recovery pathway. But I'm not saying that this is going to magically solve everything. But what I am saying is that it would be a good start in this power t that we keep being promised by government, and the government keep using this argument, and they use it in relation to a law things, and it makes no sense. So they the first time I became aware of it. They said we're not going to ring-fence mental health funding because some local thirties might want to spend more than what they're given. And it will become a ceiling. Now, we know that in fifty. Percent of cases, local authorities on spending the amount that they're given on for mental health provisions. We know that for children and young people's mental health. It's about five pounds per young person who needs mental healthcare. It's nowhere near enough. But they're saying, well, you know, they might want to spend more. So we don't want it to become a ceiling with mental health. First aid. Their argument is there's lots of employers out there who are doing more than just mental health first aid. So if we make mental health first aid mandatory now become a floor. They're obsessed ceilings and floors these people become a floor. And so we have the situation where there are some people out there and just like you said, they tend to be the small to medium size enterprises who that bodies really get it at very invested in in mental health, and and they're getting law other people being actively bullied for having mental health issues at work, and there's absolutely no consistency. And that's why structural change law. Change is the only way that we're going to begin to to achieve that first of all. We need to festival change change. The Laura I think around mental state anu so sick days and the way that we've you that. I also think culturally I mean, we've talked about perfectionism and we've talked about stress I'm actually in the process of of writing another book at the moment and it's four teenagers. And the idea was I I was trying to explore se ven diagram if wellness is here, wellbeing, his hair and academic achievement is hair. I thought that must be an over. There must be if it was then diagram a little sliver there where the where the two overlap, and then I very quickly discovered through my research is those to suck will sit on top of each other. Because in fact stress is meant to be a short-term mechanism. It was for when we were living kind of tribal existence when we'll being chased by predators. And you get this little cortisol injection, which is meant to feel uncomfortable. And it's meant to spur you into physical action to dissipate that feeling now with very sedentary. We're sitting at desks lovers, and we consider. Currently stress which means that we're getting these regular injections of cortisol which build up and build up and build up and over time that not only induce feelings of depression, it impairs your cognitive ability. It stops you from remembering things it stops. You from being able to make decisions you'll thinking becomes fuzzy. So if you overworking your employees, it is completely counterproductive. I think we need to stop fetish ising overwork because you know, that like, oh, I was in the office until two AM, and I got four hours sleep the one floor of one prepared to admit to isn't it? We should stop applauding that all of us. I think a longtime those a concept of work is there. Have you wake up the job that things where you work out issues, you go home? And we know the reports about how what life is completely swish right now, we will doing overtime getting paid overtime benefits. Commode NHS's being crushed to oblivion. And when you say, what can we do to fix in place? We need to realize what therapy therapy is therapy. The best times when I saw that memento is when I worked for a company went here is some health care, you get two hundred pounds for whatever a sore, therapists. But very time. And I've kept doing that. Even though I've changed my what oh this is what I needed not a banner all be is on a Friday or a ping pong table and whatnot. I I'm really a very very conscious that I'm talking about mental health issues and I'm in a bookstore in west London. And I'm wearing like this. And I'm talking this voice. I'm aware of my massive privileges of allowed me to come to this point realize mental problems. I haven't I'm able to reconcile myself. I'm the one I always do is. By winter, Craig schools and did correct things. I didn't realize what was going on in my life and how luck therapy and I needed proper therapy. Need proper help to reconcile issues. I had until it all went to narrow and I spent time playing rugby I spend a lot time. I used to be hit time growing up not a gray area of London and talk didn't have those advantages. My dear is when you have friends that got to go may sometimes crime. Would you make? I just don't know. But tosa Philip crite, nobody dairy something clearly that and you how do you help song sow something? They kind of reconcile within themselves because there is very very poor quit given to them from age five. And yeah, it is Jesus. He pulled the problem is capitalism. But it is right. I work with teenagers an ice. I put the teenagers in charge maybe better than the lot. Art. Someone said one of my main problems with like. Patriarchal capitalism is that you've had over two thousand years to create a system why you create one so disappointing that beats up eighty percent of people. Yeah. This this current system we live in sucks, right? Unless you have a lot of money all went to the right school. Although the right person, you will be to some level inconvenience in life, unless you look the right way how they're on money. There is something in life is going not all ready, and we'll push you back and push when pull will depend on. How many you can make do what I there's a very very good MIT study. That says if you're in the United States, it will take twenty years of correct decisions to work your way out of poverty in the United States twenty years of correct decisions that you hear about how people living in poverty, basically have higher rates of they. So twenty is the maybe maybe maybe your kids won't grow up in that situation where that yeah. And then every now, and again, someone comes along just take something I care about for me in England as well. Didn't we about statistics about people living in poverty, and then sort of hot much highway is mental health issues. And then people do now is it is it really them the price. It's one of those things where it's very hard to conceptualize because it's just if you're gonna pay right? So if you know about the Monkees bay about how your brain can only really count one hundred fifty people on the same when you so when someone tells me twenty thousand people hit something my cool that sounds like a big number in my brain now football. So I go twenty thousand people is that football stadium over there. Every man woman child enough stadium. He's the pressed that's a lot of people. What are we doing? And that's a way of better at conceptualizing and explaining stuff at people. And when you read reports about like, oh, yeah, we're really trying things more people in work. No. I know you how you fudge starts to work and you as one hour is therefore deemed fit to. No, that's not good. And then you understand that this nicely out swearing. Swearing spice. It is very hard for me to be positive and happy about mental and the idea of mental from the web place when I see so many people in Powell not shit. And I went from going. Why don't you give a shit realizing, oh your entire life you've created structures? So you never have to interact with someone who is affected by this. You're not giving the shit is the point the cruelty is the point is a common metre for. Other left in politics. I find quite interesting. Why is it that the government's keep trying? I just funding on oh, never mind. Going watch the cruelty is the point is a distraction too sloppy from doing the things you want to do because that is what leaving with the mental condition can sometimes like and I'm aware. My depression is destruction from the stuff I want to I want to be happy. I want to eat ice cream. And enjoy a someday angle. That's nice. I wanna have greater reasons to live thing. Go a kinda wanna see game of thrones. I want to be able to sit in an office from Monday to Friday, cool. I want to be able to be complimented on something. Good about myself and believe it. The mental stuff distracts me from that. And it makes it hard for me to accept lose things and Hoffman to live life. The way I want to live my life. And how I reckon light reconcile that. And solve that requires help. And that help is being held by people that should know better. But don't for reasons that make me furious. And how fix that for quite direct action ready? I was just going to say, yeah. People don't give shade. And we should because sometimes the don't know how to shit maybe what to shit but coming back to the whole notion of mental health in the workplace and talking what pressure exiled, he and stress. I just wanted to say I think it's about not about the workplace the of work, which you say about how we work. I think we need to look at that. And then coming back to freelance is sometimes seen as kind of panacea of to mental health people like me or others who think icon work in this system. And I am very unsure. And I can't go in and I can't face people. And don't get the support. I'm just going to work for myself because I can sit on the sofa and watch Netflix, Ben, I don't feel like what king, and it's absolutely fine. But I realized it thought the solution because still so stressed I worked for three in the morning, and I don't have people to talk to loneliness huge issue and your self employed entrepreneur, and I think we need to talk more. More about that kind of the wavy work as well. And it's about all the things on social media that people are working so much and producing so much and all the pressures that it creates. Well. So I think it's a about. Yes. About the way we work is some Benito revaluate. Can I ask each of you? Now, what do you think we can be doing to prove mental health in the workplace will Natasha? I think is interesting when we talk about freelances because I actually found the the opposite to be true in so far as particularly at the beginning of freelance journey you very much this mentality of I'm gonna make hey, why the sun shines and every piece of what that comes my way. I have to grab it because I don't know in six months time, whether I'll still have that work, and then it's really difficult to let go of that mentality. So you find yourself going. I just weren't have a holiday this year or I'll just work through this weekend. And I find the I've put more pressure on myself than any boss I've ever had. And is interesting. There's a guy Khuda Dr Thomas Curren who has just done a Ted talk on perfectionism, and it's gray recommended to to everyone. But what his research find is the highest you school on a perfectionism scale the more vulnerable. You oughta mental health problems and perfectionism the way you would know if you're a perfectionist is things like having a constant kind of self. Bashing ref rhetoric feeling like nothing you ever do is good enough constantly comparing yourself to others other people's opinion of you being very instrumental in how you define yourself. And also sometimes not partaking in things that you suspect you won't be good at because that would be devastating for yourself esteem. So nothing has intrinsic value to to a perfectionist. They have to kind of be the best. And I think we're all on a scale of that. And what his research shows is that from earliest moments, we are born into a culture, which is relentlessly persuading us that we are not good. Enough, and that we need to consume in order to rectify that. And that is what starts the perfectionist mindset from a really early age, basically as soon as we are as exposed to advertising and capitalism. So really, you're I know we keep coming back to this. But the only proper solution is revolution. Would you like what places manages to differently practical level to everyone stopping Yulon desk by get up go to another desk eat their eat outside when you know, it's called Britain's oppressive, but change your environment things one thing I do that improves my workplace anytime. I get a compliment. I have a little folder on my desktop. I scream grab an Email. A song goes big job. Oh, tell me all really good thing you did screen rabbit, and I stick it in a follow anytime impulses gigs in all my God on crack my job. I'm incompetent I can just go. Click compliment fuller and all right. All right. No, I'm I was good for weeks ago. Cool cool. One thing we talk about time. And this is a big problem. We have right now. I'm freelance end. I keep coming back in Kensington who about mental saw Anita couch. This with not my job is universal. But money's not as time sensitive as it used to be people over what from top to bottom there on the paid that trying to figure stuff out. You will not earn your manager respect by just sitting there and walking harder 'cause you're manage it does not have enough time to notice you sitting there and working harder and powering through and going through whatever pain is going on right now if you will in a job, you don't like what's going only job your manager respect you more by going. We need to talk because if that manager the manager Paul of their job is to manage you manage your dreams, and how it can make you less on happy. I'm Carney doing that with an employee. You can't keep doing this me. Otherwise, couldn't leave that is thing you need to do something. That breed makes me angry is when all these companies go, well, like big family work is a family. You families are family. You family doesn't have to be your blood relation. You find that networks of people you make your friends the coaches who have go to church, whoever place of worship go to when people say, what is your family? It's writing we spend so much time here that you don't spend any time with anyone else. Now that is. Trick or maybe like people, that's fine. But when when that happens be aware of be aware of the company that talks about how work is about doesn't have an HR department be aware of the place that gives you free beer on a Friday, but doesn't give you healthcare beware of the place that doesn't give you travel teas. But once the talk so much about how maybe maybe in six months, you get flown to New York of his be aware of things like that be aware of the equality act. Be aware of EU. Stuffing law that you can't do a night shift and then a morning shift back toback you need eight hours to to your job. Because if you keep doing that you be redesigned, I'm gonna say the press, but like show sad. These things you need to be aware of something. I talk about a lot. When you go into any company is something that we used to do at university to grant that system. So you're a first year you've got one person above you in second year off to you as your at. And then above you, you have to people who are responsible for you and a couple of people. So they're all three people above you that no will you are what you do whether or not you had breakfast today. Companies don't force those networks any more because companies need to just fill in the churn into things that new if that happens you have to go through yourself all of these things on unauthorized you have to be responsible to you for yourself to a degree. I cannot. Saying my mom says I kind of come and die for you. Unfortunately. One of my big thing is I'm a black man which. I am the only black man in this room fun. This to me a lot. So I I have a network on my phone of black men who do my job because when I guess out and go is this job for me. I can't do this job. Is this job? Does this like black men doing what they do? I can find up black men and people that look like me to go. I'm like five years old you you just doing the same thing those doing bugging five years ago. It's fine. If you are a minority person in a what place I feel as if you're minority state is is somehow impeding you making you feel bad. Find someone to mental you just attached yourself like a limpet to person because if you don't coughed yourself, and you don't off the people around you, no one else will write society got smashed, the pieces by terrible, terrible governments, and you need to report some and to do it you need to roll up your sleeves go out in the world, and basically be like nine. Nice to each other which is hot because there's a lot of in this world, and it can be so easy to just do one thing and go to work every single day. What really hot at your lunch I desk because really really hot. 'cause you want to keep your job. You don't get sacked because we're not Joe crisis. Still I think that's all time for so we don't completely piss off Waterstones by saying I'm sorry. They have huge huge run. One. You get all the way to Joe's today men to me meant then. Mentally.

depression Matthew Natasha Devon UK BBN Paul migraine Prince William gay magazine FDIC CNN cortisol editor Evan campaign GT Matola United States Joe Woo founder
Mentally Yours Live

Mentally Yours

41:14 min | 2 years ago

Mentally Yours Live

"Five our T with caffeine from green tea leaves. It's delicious energizing incomes in three amazing flavors was zero sugar and four calories. It fits your life with its compact size import ability. It goes where you go to the campsite, the hiking trail the beach without weighing you down by our T caffeine from green tea, leaps. Release your natural side from the makers of five hour energy. For more information. Visit five hour energy dot com. Mentally. Focus on your mental regrets, mentally meant to me. Into the. Then to. Today. So we've just finished the first, mentally yours. Live a live version of our podcast, mentally yours. Which is a weekday Picasso metro credit u k I'm Yvette melon, and yeah, it went well, there was applause in questions of people actually stayed at eighth cake, which is good. So yeah, if you just well, I guess you will just be tuning into now because he's the introduction. They can be chatty about mental health at work. It is recorded live, and we have an expert panel. It's a bit different from usual. Could you please each introduce yourselves? Look, I a journalist and broadcaster something's doozy's CNN CNN those different publications sometimes not all sometimes about look sometimes it's about game of thrones. Right. And I have been diagnosed with depression, answering Easterns January seventh two thousand seventeen I was on episode of mid Leo's. Explain the build up to my diagnosis and immediate aftermath of the diagnosis work. I've done with mentors charities off to it. So worked with time to change mind and calm does. And Paul the best campaign with com- Lossiemouth with Prince William that was what he doesn't like being photographed on one side or he's so that's what I do an plaid gear. And I wasn't minke yours talking about my social enterprise, which is about creativity and mental. Health and editor talk about creativity can support mental health written extensively about my own experience with PND and bullying, and I write for Forbes about what place and mental health, and I run workshops and talks on on going shis bias and gender bias racial inequalities around affirmative spirit goes as well. Hello. Michelle this Instagram style, nor really coulda tho-. I was editor asked she'd magazine UK's bestselling gay magazine and on the automobile straightjacket, which is about mental health. I to go Prince William to appear on the cover of a gay magazine. And he's and he said don't don't don't put on the cover the oncoming out because you'll upset my wife, which was fun. I'm stranded, very strange experience. But yeah. Talking about mental right for the goal gin. And it's weird we straighten there with the confessional step up. I'm a recovering alcoholic. Woo is such a strange thing to go in telling people, you don't know that because it's not like a massive thing in my life. But that's what we talked about that when I did the cost. So I'm very happy to be. Thank you. I I'm not she Devon and my bum is a bit too big for this chess. Sorry, I've just got to write more comfortable now. Hi, hi, everyone. I'm just want you to have a campaign, I work in schools and colleges throughout the UK doing lessons with teenagers on mental health and related issues. Like, what do you Mench? I was also a guest on mentally yours. When my book begins guides being mental came out, which is an eight is it on everything to do with mental health. I'm the founder of a campaign could wedge your head out to improve workplace mental health through law change. And I'm also the presenter of a show called naked beach, which I am missing to be hit tonight so event Allen is how much I love you. It's totally fine. Babes continue the confessional. I have OCD depression has bipolar disorder. Oh, yeah. Equal and sharing our postal troopers. Yeah. It's a cool. We can get started ready called you're a freelancer. And also you've worked a lot of different places without naming names, we've discussed place is getting wrong and right about mental health in the workplace from your experience. There is point. We might. Mama yet about how. Very often. It is the work of the majority to make you feel bad for pointing out a line in the sand as if you put it yourself. So I think it's good. We're we're now in a position where hey won't people going? I don't I can't go to work because I've got them in health issue that vices a little biographical and only speak for myself if I want to take a mental health fail Fluck why we'll still call in sick. And so I have a headache. But I think there's a growing understanding that people what doing that. So things are better. But not that much better and varies the idea. I'm a freelance. I don't particularly want to be a freelancer and the people I meet in my life who have similar conditions are also free dances. And every now, and again, we raise I rose and go, oh, we freed on by choice, or are we freed onces because the full-time working environment in the United Kingdom in two thousand nineteen is completely incompatible with living with a mental condition. That's about I don't know. I hope the answer is. No, I actually did choose to be figured ons instead of being I'm just I guess sometimes I'm therefore people view me as on reliable and therefore go to a place of work every single day. But I don't know. And that makes me happy and sad because there's no definitive proof. But there is that lingering drill. So I believe or any place not because we have great awareness that people at what kept met those conditions, and that we should view mental conditions in the same view physical conditions on if you if you can't actually going to work because migraine then, obviously if you don't fit to go into work because you're fading depressed. They should be on the Saint Paul. However, I also still think we're in a place where people in the workplace would be more comfortable saying I'm going to because I have a migraine rather than because I just don't feel up. So today four reason ex when you're talking about you're not sure if you'll freelance because of mental health or in benefit for it. Do you think freelancing has benefits of mental health to a big bouncing Gervais? It's great. I can. I do all the work. But I don't get any of the benefits in the I have the freedom to take off time. When I don't feel great to it. However it in my head. I don't really have a pension. I don't really have savings. If I take time off to go on hold. It comes up on it because I'm my boss. However, I don't have to do the imagined conversation with the big boss and say, I have a Zayed's. I I've never had that conversation. It is an imagined one in my head. But I know it's out there on I know it exists. And I know I had that conversation with people who have pretended to not be that evil imagine balls and have later on turned out to be one. So I I once worked company that gave it the big I am about men's mental health. They plotted all over the publication though. Yep. We care about men's mental health me. Absolutely believe this. We have a whole campaign about this. And this is what we believe in this. What we care, and they were breaking you walking those make Nestle do everyday. Low time, and at least three members the staff had to take time off to to overwork. And as we now know what place stress can cools mental similar conditions are making us incredibly depress them, I thought boss, unlike free at and I don't want to come into work anymore because of the way you make us work, and he just shrugged. That's that's just the coalface right now you have to get on with it. And then later on when we were. From positions in less than legal circumstances. One superior may comment unto my social media post going. Oh, yeah. No. You don't like this show live, see social media posts? So what's the big deal? The big deal is you've tried to shut my brain. And I hate you. And that's Todd because like I said, no, no employee. I don't think any employer. Any bulls right now is one views themselves as the views himself as we don't want to hire people with mental conditions. But. That they're. And is it scary that they're there? They don't know. Or is it scary that? There are people that do not. I don't know. And it's a it's an old one to balance pregame commitment leave until you undo said talking about bullying at work because when you came on mental yours before we had a brief chats about that. Obviously bullying can happen to anyone in any workplace. Unlike really affect mental health how does it manifest itself at work? What can we do to tackle this link is a tricky one actually because because it works in quite insecure sway sometimes often, and it's very difficult to prove it's kind of a vicious cycle. Because once you start thinking that you're being bullied, and if you start keeping track, which you're recommended to you become even more paranoid. And then you it just starts that cycle and bullying mix the person who's being bullied feel ashamed. And they feel does the nature bullying. The bleed person feels like it's their fault for being bullied. We if I could just stand up to them if I. Could just do a bit more. Maybe I'm not doing enough work. Maybe I'm not coming into work that regularly. Maybe I'm not performing my job to the most or whatever those kind of things and willing all also manifests not not in quite a direct attack. But also a lot of things which I call micro aggressions or micro in validations, which are these these my seemingly very minor commenced, but they affect a lot and it's about tiny things it can often be taken his jokes or humor can be passed off like that. But they affect the mental health of the person who's being who's being targeted. So yes, bullying is quite a tricky one. And I think from speaking from my own personal experience. It affected my mental health quite a lot a lot which meant that. But it was very difficult to talk about it because you're in a very senior position. And you think oh people when you are in a seated position, you don't get bullied. It's only happens in playgrounds, and it I can't get bullied because I'm in this position of power or whatever of privilege, but yes, if these I think it it has to be about be about the birthplace culture. And I talk a lot about implicit bias and unconscious bias in. You were talking about these people who these bosses who carry the stigma still there around mental health, and even though this tokenistic efforts are on mental health still exist about maybe should do more about mental health. But people don't talk about it more openly, so bullying something people don't talk about openly either. They don't talk about migrations. It has to be proper leadership. Which takes charge. It's about changing the culture of the workplace to become more positive about training and -opoly talking about these things and creating a safe space where people are not judged for this. But these conversations can happen. I think an how can we suppose our colleague? Yet. I think it's about being good allies too. So I always say that if you see somebody being attacked or being targeted or even in meetings, like sometimes I bought with organizations with women or with many even who feel like they're being ignored or unacknowledged for the work. They're doing and that can amount to bullying as well. But the guidelines are on bullying is very very vague. And you can't really prove it. If you go to a charity, not -sconsin I'm being bullied because it's very difficult to prove. So it's about the it's about again training, and it's about talking, and it's about people being aware that they can stand up to it can be good allies. They could support them. You can go and talk to them in a safe space, creating these kinds of workshops be that people can voice their concerns are creating a space where kind of a feedback loop. Some somehow that the people can talk about what's happening to them how we can make. So it becomes more. Participate in collaborative poor process in the workplace rather than something that okay, we are just working here. Like robots have to just do what we are told to do bows of feel like it's not your place to speak out for some bitty. Because again, it kind of dehumanizes that other person. If you're stunned speaking for that person is kind of saying that you don't have voice, but you may be going to have a coffee with them. Maybe try and talk to them about it and say you struggling or just empathy. I think can do great way to crew Matthew you've been kind of on both sides. You've been an editor couldn't manage people then so working industry your own struggles war. What have you seen it from both sides? What did you find challenging? What did you learn about managing people with mental health issues? You I trust you because I think you yeah. You've experienced both sides of that. I was filling Koepenick hearing these talk about this stuff because. Were office return of years. And I was thinking I don't know that much about this such just this thing too. I relate so much about the executive working at home. I feel like I probably can work in office at the moment. I I do feel like I have an exotic disorder. I don't wear it mislead. The whole time is not the defining thing in my life. But it was really really hard work in office. When I was not the the editor. And also when I was there, which brings this whole other group of problems, it's really difficult. I think talking about these issues. So hard. It's opening Pandora's box. It's like how do we become nice as a society is one of these really hard questions unit unit? When I think of you know, some of the big companies like around to- Cam LGBT issues, a mental health and stuff, and let me Bank some corporations, and that massive companies with, you know, hundreds of millions of pounds and stuff, and they put a nice advance for the GP tea society or just mental health, and you'd feel the law those times companies, a great, and it like catering, and it's nice, and they care about people have discussions in the managers will come. And sometimes I get the feeling, oh, you know, you're talking about the stuff about you know, quality and making people feel they're able to be who they are working to hide in the closet and soon, and then I think well, how do you actually treat them actually today? General drop e working we're paying drought Astor hard or just making people feel inadequate that not working really really hard. So there's that level. But also, you know, my experience managing. Did you do a mid level business without a sixteen seventeen people, and it was really really hard because you know, sitting here now and thinking, yes, I wanted to split people in the mental health. I was run off my fate. It was really really hard. Just keeping the magazine guy made me really struck me ill, actually. And so and there were times that was someone who was drinking in the office. That was really hot. I don't know how how you manage that tells you how to manage that was re difficult as I wanted to help him. But we'll say he need to be responsible. You know, Boston that situation. So it's really really hot. And so to say to people I I love the idea of people being phone up and say over mental Health Day coming in my position to what what hell are you doing? How am I going to get this done? It's really stressful. And I guess maybe he was saying earlier the these are kind of to to wide discussions about the way the world works not to want to sound like, geez. Hissy politics, student capitalism and just just the way it works. Because I do think we need to reorder the the way we think is really interesting. The last two years the discussions that you are leading and you know, all about mental health, and you know, the roles. No the rest is opening apparent doors box because so many people have mental health problems. I mean, it just everywhere you look here in families in workplaces. And even things you might not even the -ssarily. No problem with my uncle problem. I I had no idea, you know, like, lots of people Rummy were drinking as much as I was all worse than than I was. It was hard to confront. I'd also have experience if you know this idea that you can be open. It was quite hard to you know, the total couple of stuff, and I was when I went into recovery abouts it thinking that it was opposed to thing. I felt like they they should know rights. He about to the magazine and seventy one of them was very judgmental about I found out after another case someone who's who's in recovery, and he had told his bosses he'd been cyber for a few years, and he told his bosses and at Christmas party, he relapsed drunk a little bit messy, but it was a disaster. But because they knew he was an alcoholic. They thought him, and they wouldn't have fired him if he just been general person just go drunk party. So these out really really complicated problems for all of us you in that position again. Now, if you leading team people why discussing is really really important. But I also think it's been interesting with my book. Sometimes I may be people I think LGBT mental specifically not really been. Talked about before because gay coach has been very much on the defensive because we in attack, you know, and you know, it'd be illegal to be gay in. No. So I get quite strongly actions from people, which is really amazing and people say, oh, you know, we're talking about this. If makes sense to me, there's some some people on notice that then define themselves are living with this conditional living with that condition. And I sometimes worry, whether you know is not a good is a good place to be can it be too much to be focusing too much on that like like, I said, you know, a recovering alcoholic, but it's such a strong word. I it does not define me. So I don't think about it my day to day life anyone maybe five years over. It's thing. I do. But you know, it's not the overriding thing, I guess talking about it. But just trying to, you know, allow people to be less stressed, and and able to talk about issues and not forced to fill in the if they make a mistake. They are going to be fine. At my issue, which I think is interesting that signing some of these problems come from from us. It might thing was I felt so bad growing up. I thought I have to be perfect. So at work that was the way perfectionism. I'll be there till midnight hour, really hard. All impressed. The ball is not that made me ill too. So I think maybe just yeah. Just discussing we're doing is pretty positive important thing over he said about the tokenistic gestures versus the actual changes. So kind of open to all of you. What's the difference? How can we tell the difference between things are just done to say, we're mental health friendly and one of the actual concrete things that businesses can do to make sure they look happy. I would think that what I think something that I touched on just now is rather than focusing just on mental health creating these wellness days or creating a yoga's to your comes on. Or these kind of things are good to support mental health, but need to think about kind of the systematic underlying issues that are affecting the mental health at work in the first place because mental health can be because of work and you touch on that about the stress and anxiety. And it's about that culture that is created in it, I know from academia myself as being a woman in stem and engineering being woman of color again. There was so much pressure to prove myself. And so I had to divert doubly hard than anybody else to prove myself, and I was a mud single parent. And so again, that's kind of biases. I had to shore Noah that doesn't affect my work in any way. So I think it's about a workplace, which is personalized to individuals. We can't have a fixed. Plitt a cutout that you can impose, and I don't know how that will work in large organizations, and you need to change the law. Yes. So this is actually really pertinent me at the moment because I'm a very good friend of mine's ex partner recently just last week took his life, and I spoke to her on the phone today. And she was saying that all over social media people are talking about him and saying, oh, you know, it we just need to reach out to each other. And you're maybe we should have a day or week where we will talk about our mental health. And she said it's making me feel like crap because it's making me feel like as his friend. I didn't talk to him. But I did I talked to him all the time about his mental health, and sometimes just your friends checking in with you isn't enough the structure the help has to be there. And so the where's your head out campaign? It's it's to get parity between mental health and physical health for first aid that has to be a provision for physical health first aid in all workplaces. So if you cut yourself on need, ambulance or whatever somebody knows the protocol. All you can go on a mental health. First aid course, and it will teach you if your colleague is having a panic attack or they're exhibiting extreme stress, or even if that's do a Seidel it teaches you what to say what not to say, what is appropriate to recommend in terms of of help and support that's not going to cure, all mental illness. There's a lot of evidence to show that the first person that reaches out to you. Or you talk to that attitude can be really instrumental in your recovery pathway. But I'm not saying that this is going to to magically solve everything. But I am saying is that it would be a good start in this power t that we keep being promised by government, and the government keep using this argument, and they use it in relation to a law things, and it makes no sense. So they the first time I became aware of it. They said we're not going to ring fence mental health funding because some local authorities might want to spend more than what they're given. And it will become a ceiling. Now, we know that in fifty. Percent of cases, local authorities on spending the amount that they given on four mental health provisions. We know that for children and young people's mental health. It's about five pounds per young person who needs mental health care. It's nowhere near enough. But they're saying, well, you know, they might want to to spend more. So we don't want it to become a ceiling with mental health. First aid. Their argument is well, there's lots of employers out there who are doing more than just mental health first aid. So if we make mental health first aid mandatory now become a floor. They're obsessed ceilings and floors these people become a floor. And so we have this situation where there are some people out there and just like you said, they tend to be the small to medium size enterprises who that bodies really get it at very invested in in mental health, and and they're getting a lot other people being actively bullied for having mental health issues at work, and there's absolutely no consistency. And that's why I think structural change law. Change is the only way that we're going to begin to to achieve that first of all. We need to festival change change. The Laura I think around mental state and also sick days and the way that we view that. I also think culturally I mean, we've talked about perfectionism and we've talked about stress I'm actually in the process of of writing another book at the moment and it's four teenagers. And the idea was I I was trying to explore say Van Dyke Graham if wellness is here wellbeing his hair and academic achievement. Is hey, I thought that must be an overlap. There must be if it was then diagram a little sliver there where the where the two overlap, and then why very quickly discovered through my research is those to suck will sit on top of each other. Because in fact, stress is meant to be a short-term mechanism it it was when we were living kind of tribal existence when we're being chased by predators. And you get this little cortisol injection, which is meant to feel uncomfortable. And it's meant to spur you into physical action to dissipate that feeling now with very sedentary. We're sitting at desks allow averse and we consider. Currently stress which means that we're getting these regular injections of cortisol which build up and build up and build up and over time that not only induce feelings of depression, it impairs your cognitive ability. It stops you from remembering things it stops. You from being able to make decisions you'll thinking becomes fuzzy. So if you are overworking, your employees, it is completely counterproductive. I think we need to stop fetish izing overwork because you know, that like, oh, I was in the office until two AM, and I got four hours sleep the one floor of one prepared to admit to isn't it? We should stop applauding that all of us. I think a along time. There was a concept of work. Is there? Have you wake up you go to your job that things where you work out an issues, you go home? And we know the reports about how what life is completely switched right now. We'll doing overtime getting paid overtime benefits of. NHS's being crushed to oblivion. And and when you say, what can we do to fix in place? We need to realize what therapy therapy is therapy. Doing the best times when I've so that memento is when I worked for a company went here is some health care. You get two hundred pound for whatever today's on a sore, therapists. But very time enough kept doing that. Even though I've changed my whatever went, oh, this is what I needed not up banner or be is on a Friday or a ping pong table and whatnot. I'm I'm really a very very conscious of the fact that I'm talking about mental health issues and I'm in bookstore in west London. And I'm wearing like losses like this. And I'm talking like this, and this voice, I'm aware of my massive privileges of allowed me to come to this point realize the mental problems. I happen. I'm able to reconcile myself on the one I always do is. By winter all the Craig's losing all over correct things. And I didn't realize what was going on in my life, and how is therapy and I needed proper therapy any proper help to reconcile issues. I had until it all went to narrow bomb, and I spent all that time playing rugby I spent a lot of time I used to be NAMI spent a lot of time growing up not a gray area of London on talk. Bill didn't have those advantages. My dear is when you have friends that got to you may sometimes just feel a crime. Would you make you know? I just don't know. But toast, Philip cried dairy something clearly that and you how do you help songwriting sow something? They kind of reconcile within themselves because there is very very poor equipment given to them from age five. And yeah, it is Jesus he pulled experience to go. The problem is capitalism. But it is right. So I work with teenagers an ice. I put the teenagers in charge. They'd be better than the law. Someone said one of my main problems with like. Patriarchal capitalism is that you've had over two thousand years to create a system why have you create one so disappointing that beats up eighty percent of people? Yeah. What this this current system? We live sucks, right? Unless you have a lot of money all went to the right school or the right person. You will be to some level inconvenience in life, unless you look the right way or how their money there is something in life is going not already, and we'll push you back and push when pull will depend on. How many this is you can make do whatever there's a very very good MIT study that basically says if you're in the United States it will take twenty years of correct decisions to work your way out of poverty in the United States twenty years of correct decisions? You hear stuff of that? You hear about how people living in poverty, basically have higher rates of. So twenty is this is a maybe maybe maybe your kids won't grow up in that situation where that yeah. And then every now, and again, someone comes along and just take something I care about for me England as well. Adept me about statistics about people living in poverty, and then sort of as hot much highway is the mental health issues. And then people do now is it. But is it really that much of a surprise? But anyway, it's it's one of those things where it's very hard to conceptualize because it's just if you're gonna pay so if you know about the Monkees paper, how your brain can only really count one hundred fifty people on the same. So when someone tells me twenty thousand people hit something my cool that sounds like a big number might brain. Now. So I go twenty thousand people is that football stadium over there. Every man woman and child enough stadium. He's the press. That's a lot of people. What are we doing? And that's a way of better conceptualizing and explaining stuff at people. And when you read reports about like, oh, yeah, we're really trying things more people in work. But no, I know you how you fudges that's the work, and you won't as one hour is therefore deemed fit to on your no, that's not good. And then you understand that. How is nicely swearing? Swearing spice. It is very hard for me to be positive and happy about mental and the idea of mental from the web place when I see so many people in Powell not to give it. And I went from grind. Why don't you give a shit to realizing oh your entire life you've created structures? So you never have to interact with someone who is affected by this. You're not giving the shit is the point the cruelty is the point is a common metre for all of the left wing politics. I find quite interesting. Why is it that the government is going to keep kind, and I just mental funding on oh, never mind. Just keep going watch. The cruelty is the point it is a distraction to stop you from doing the things you want to do because that is what leaving with a mental health condition can sometimes like and I'm aware. My depression is a distraction from the self. I want to do I want to be happy. I want to eat ice cream and enjoy a summer day angle. I don't that's nice. I wanna have greater reasons to live then go a kinda wanna see game of thrones. I want to be able to sit in an office from Monday to Friday. I cool. I want to be able to be complimented on something. Good about myself and believe it. The mental stuff distracts me from that. And it makes it hard for me to accept those things and me to live life the way I want to live my life. And how I reckon light reconcile that and sold that requires help. And that help is being held by people that should know better. But don't for reasons that make me furious. And how we fix that. For quite direct action ready. Yeah. I was I was just going to say people don't give a shit in. We should because sometimes they don't know how to shit maybe what to do to shit, but coming back to the whole notion of mental health in the workplace and talking about pressure, anxiety and stress. I just wanted to say I think it's about not about the workplace, but the way of work, which you say about how we work. I think we need to look at that. And and then coming back to freelance is sometimes seen as kind of panacea of to mental health people like me or others who think oh, I can't work in this system. And I am very anxious, and I can't go in and I can't face people. And don't get the support. I'm just going to work for myself because I can sit on the sofa and watch Netflix, Ben, I don't feel like what king, and it's absolutely fine. But I realized it is the solution because still so stressed I worked toward three in the morning. And I don't have people to talk to an loneliness is a huge issue and your self employed entrepreneur, and I think we need to talk. More about that kind of the wavy work as well. And it's about all the things you say on social media that people are working so much and producing so much and all the pressures that it creates as well. So I think it's a bout. Yes. About the way we work is some Benito revaluate, but. Can I ask each of you? Now, what do you think we can be doing to prove mental health in the workplace? I will Natasha. I mean, I think is interesting when we talk about freelances because I actually found the the opposite to be true in so far as particularly at the beginning of a freelance journey you very much have this mentality of I'm gonna make hey, why the sun shines and every piece of what that comes my way. I have to grab it because I don't know in six months time, whether I'll still have that work, and then it's really difficult to let go of that mentality. So you find yourself going. Oh, I just weren't have a holiday this year or I'll just work through this weekend. And I find the I put more pressure on myself than any boss I've ever had. And it's interesting. There's a guy called Dr Thomas Karen who has just done a Ted talk on perfectionism. And it's great. I recommend it to to everyone. But. What his research? Find is the higher you school on a perfectionism scale the more vulnerable. You ought to mental health problems. And perfectionism the way you would know if you're a perfectionist it's things like having a constant kind of self bashing rhetoric feeling like nothing you ever do is good enough constantly comparing yourself to others other people's opinion of you being very instrumental in how you define yourself. And also sometimes not partaking in things that you suspect you won't be good at because that would be devastating for yourself esteem. So nothing has intrinsic value to to a perfectionist. They have to kind of be the best. And I think we're all on a scale of that. And what his research shows is that from our earliest moments. We are born into a culture which is relentlessly persuading us that we are not good enough. And that we need to consume in order to rectify that. And that is what starts the perfectionist mindset from a really early age, basically as soon as we are as exposed to advertising and capitalism. So really, you're. I know we keep coming back to this. But the only proper solution is revolution. What would you like what places manages to differently practical level to everyone? Stop in your lunch at your desk by get up go to another desk eat their eat outside when you know, it's called Britain's oppressive but change your environment, though, things one thing that I do that improves my workplace anytime. I get a compliment. I have a little folder on my desktop screen grabbing Email own goes good job. Oh tells me, oh as a really good thing. You did I scream rabbit, and I stick it in a follow anytime impulses in gigs in. Oh my God. I'm crack my job. I'm competent. I can just go click that complement and all right? No. I'm I was good for ago. Cool cool. One thing we're talking about like time. And this is a big problem. We have right now. I'm freelance end. I keep coming back this up in Kensington talk about mental som-, Anita couch. This with not my job is universal. But man is not as time sensitive as it used to be the people over what from top to bottom there on the paid. They're trying to figure stuff out. You will not earn your manager respect by just sitting there and walking harder 'cause you're manage it does not have enough time to notice you sitting there and working harder powering through and going through wherever pain is going on right now if you will in a job, I don't like what's going on your job, your manager respect you more by going. We need to talk because if that manager the manager Paul of their job is to manage you and manage your dreams, and how it can make you less unhappy. I'm Carney doing that with an employee. You can't keep doing this to me. Otherwise, it couldn't leave. That is a thing you need to do something. That breed. It makes me angry is when all these companies go wet like big family. What family your family is your family? Are you family doesn't have to be blood relation? You find these networks of people you make your friends, the coaches, whoever you go to church, whoever place, a western go to when people say, what is your family? That's right. And so we spend so much time here that you don't spend any time with anyone else. Now that is. Trick. Or maybe like people you. Okay. That's fine. But when when that happens be aware of be aware of the company that talks about how work is about doesn't have an HR department be aware of the place that gives you free pier on a Friday, but doesn't give you healthcare beware of the place that doesn't give you travel. I mean, it is. But once the talk so much about how maybe maybe in six months, you get floated in New York office be aware of things like that be aware of the equality act. Be aware of EU. Stuffing law that you can't do a night shift and then a morning shift back toback you need eight hour sleep to to your job. Because if you keep doing that you will be redesigned, I'm gonna say the press, but like so sad. So is that these things you need to be aware of something. I talk about a lot. When you go into any company is something that we used to do at university with the grant that system. So you're a first year you've got one person above you in second year looks off to you as your dad, and then above you, you have to people who are responsible for you and a couple of other people. So they're all three people above you that no will you are what you do. Whether or not you had breakfast today. Companies don't force those networks anymore because companies need to just fill in the churn and do things that new if that happens you have to go out and do it yourself, and all of these things you have to be responsible to you for yourself to a degree. I cannot. Saying is my mom says I of come and die for you. Unfortunately. One of my big thing is I'm a black man which. I am the only black man in this room fun. This offense to me a lot. So I I have a network on my phone of black men who do my job because when I guess out and go is this job for me. I can't do this job. Is this job? Does this like black men doing what they do? I can find up black men and people that look like me to go, y'all. I'm like five years old you you just doing the same thing those doing bugging five years ago. It's fine. If you are a minority person in a what place I feel as if you're minority state is is somehow impeding you will making you feel bad. Find someone to mental you just attach yourself like a limpet to person because if you don't cough yourself, and you don't off the people around you. No one else will write society got smashed the pieces by terrible terrible. Governments. Are you? Now need to reforge some and to do it you need to roll up your sleeves go out in the world. And basically be like nine. Nice to each other which is hot because there's a lot of fear in this. Well, and it can be so easy to just do your one thing and go to work every single day. What really hot an your lunch? I or desk 'cause really really hot. 'cause you want to keep your job. You don't get sacked because we're in a crisis still, I think that's all we got time for so we don't completely piss off Waterstones by saying I'm sorry, and they have a huge huge Brown. A wonderful. Chose today. Maidment then. Mentally.

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