5 Episode results for "richard cable"

MongoDB in the Cloud with James Kovacs and Rachelle Palmer

.NET Rocks!

1:01:46 hr | 4 months ago

MongoDB in the Cloud with James Kovacs and Rachelle Palmer

"This portion of dot net rocks is brought to you by couchbase a modern multi cloud edge sequel friendly jason document database for building applications with jill dougherty performance and scale if you're new to couchbase and would like to learn more the couchbase developer portal is the best place to start. It's loaded with tutorials videos documentation as well as best practice tips. Quick start guides and community resources including couchbase developer community forum to get started developing on couchbase. Visit couchbase dot com slash dot net. Rocks that's couchbase. Dot com slash. Dot any t. r. o. c. k. s. Welcome back to dot net rocks. This is carl franklin. And this is richard cable and boy. It's been a while since we recorded a show. It's been a few weeks you gonna give you time off. We do a bunch of shows all at once and you get a couple of weeks off. They do a bunch more. I like it. it's march first right now. I mean right now as you're listening to this but as we recording it's march first than night saw. The crocus is coming up poking on today. Saying he here i am here i am. Don't worry life is coming back. life is coming back. Yeah it is pretty pretty rough winter. No two ways about it is pretty cool. This is going to be a great show but before we get the guests and stuff and before better no framework. I have a little announcement to make. I have put out. What i think is going to be a very popular. Get repo. it's called blazer sliders and there's a new package for it as well. It's just what you think but sliders is sort of you think like a slider that goes back and forth. But i'm talking about. I think about a hamburger. But that's especially blazer sliders right. I mean something. I want to order at chili's or burger king sunday but anyway yeah so so. It's multiple panels horizontal and vertical split panels. Right so you have a sprayer in the middle and you can grab the splitter and move it left and right to the panels in the whole thing re sizes when you re size the browser you can make it. Take up the whole screen. It's blazer it's good you can estim- right now. You can only nest a horizontal inside a vertical. But i'm working on multiple nesting. I basically got it working. And now i put it out there. Good yeah now. i'm refactoring it and making it actually more efficient and less verbose and all. Now you get the me notes from people of course our whole product around your library and it's your fault there's and it's only been a couple of days and thirty download. Some not all the eric about it. Give them a couple more weeks to really get the hate on for you right. So here's my advice. If you're using one point zero point one that's gonna change. So but but the good news is that properties are being taken away not add so the you won't need to do so much manual set up it'll automatically discover who the children are and who the parents are in. It'll automatically figure out how to size itself right now. I do i have. I would require a little bit of setup in the parameters but that's going away so anyway enjoy blazers flyers works on s- a server and blazer wasim and Yeah but that's not my better framework. Oh okay will you better play the music then be yeah you better go now. You know you do it. No you fine. You got all right. Well this is actually pretty cool in the guys in one of the guys in Avonex slack room. Scott rowdy found this so microsoft uses this thing called code q. L. it's a semantic code analysis engine. That's part of get hub right okay. They open sourced it so in the end the ideas that you can use code q wealth to make queries to hunt for Soul solar gate activity so essentially. What you can do is you can have this thing. Where your code base and find the militias bits. Oh interesting yeah yeah. It's pretty cool. So i don't understand a whole lot of it but it is mind blowing that you know you can just imagine just checking your code in and then you know get hub says. Hey this is Or notifies you know malicious code so it's It's really cool. Yeah very interesting. And he's becoming a normal part of the pipeline. These days it seems for at softwares also looking for like accidental uses of somebody else's coat right like you don't know right pace things like don't necessarily know where sources come prime so you can trace analysis across the board just like where is this code from That whole dependency chain. Yeah yeah for sure. It's good. But i thought james would like that and Now over to you richard. What's who's talking to us today. Well considering alassio james twenty thirteen. It's very unfair to read like comments from eight nine years ago. We should anyway. Not that i wouldn't do that. But actually i found a really relevant comment for this show from adult compatriot of james's from jerry miller's from show sixteen fifty five. Just show we. Jeremy met back in october. Twenty nineteen talking about the dot net core ecosystem so that whole the what the open source community looked like there and so we talked about a lot of different things in that space. One of which was talking about non relational databases and crossed crafts comment about a year and a half old now where he says. Hey it's always interesting to hear from rockstars like miller but as a show was concentrated towards no sequel noise right. Some of the statements were converts. Wrote not will put me off a bit. Like when richard said why would it make the customer to decompose objects. Just store the object right. Of course. I think a little. Alex fair alex's i followed that with the customer store the object and then break it out into a relational database. A synchronous -ly right. After the customers already moved on the goes on to say though i understand that adding all the caveats the statements would make the show boring as a dvd worshiper inactive. No sequel developer for years. Here's my outcry. There is a serious cost associated with developing and supporting no sequel database for relational databases to Consider at least document type databases which most people mean when they say no sequel the aggregates designed for the most often operation reading data so persisting aggravates is not meant to be quick sensitive volt dated duplication maintaining reference out of the boundaries and so forth and about performance. Hey sequel is performed to the question is what are you trying to do. There are places where no sequel shines and they're also places where databases do just fine. I do like no sequel in much higher level of usage in the enterprise but modern hazy understanding of those equal obstructs adoption of the technology. You the pragmatic way as just another tool in your tool belt team. No sequel as the default option would remove the perception of it being an untouchable shrine. And get more people using it. Yeah he does reference a couple of blog posts including seven reasons not to use no sequel and the book no sequel to still by martin fowler. Which is a little stale. but it's martin fowler. You should read it. Yeah anyway. I thought it was interesting. You know our apps. We weren't firm enough on this whole in. I think the two things work together really. Well there are places where people may sense appraises where people may sense and most places where both will help you zoom time. Yup so alex. Thank you so much for your comment. A copy musical buys on its way to eun. If you'd like a copy of these go by write a comment on the website at dot net rocks dot com or on facebook were published every show and if you sit there and read on the show. I'll send you a copy music. Oh by and definitely follow us on twitter. I met carl franklin. He's at rich campbell. Send us a tweet and you know. Hurry up because times. Wasting not yeah. It's springtime get out there and play in the crocuses all right. So i'd like to introduce reintroduced james kovacs and introduced for the first time rachelle palmer so a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. James kovacs was a frequent guest on dot net rocks. He spoke at conferences wrote magazine articles and had an active twitter account. Then a career change landed him at mongo. Db where he has spent the last five years in self inflicted obscurity. I liked that. Self inflicted obscurity during that time he has worked on the technical support team assisting customers with a core database product and more recently on the driver's team building the language idiomatic drivers that allow developers to connect mongo db his current focus is implementing new features in the mongo db dot net c. Sharp driver which is used by millions of developers worldwide and for the first time on dot net rocks rochelle palmar is currently a senior product manager focused on developer experience at mongo db which includes drivers and integrations with all of manga. Db's officially supported programming languages. Which are c. Sharp dot net python corsi sharp slash dot net python ruby. Php no go swift and java. She's been with mommy. Db's since two thousand thirteen. i mean. Welcome you individually. Welcome james thank you. Welcome back good to be back and welcome thanks mongo. Db james I'll never forget that. I Show that you did with us. Low those many years ago In the absolute perfect description of ifc. And why you it and It just You know it was a great explanation. I consider it the best explanation of those things since before. Or since i appreciate that a lot of my goal of technology is to understand things at a fundamental level and then share it with others. And i'm hoping to bring some of that. Knowledge of non relational databases and mongo. Db two emeals the dot net community. And i think i heard about maga d be in the context of raven db which is i thing and i guess he he wanted to do something similar to mongo but i never really really got into it into raven but i did like the way he was talking about. How index is created on the fly. And all of that stuff and i imagine. It's very much the same in mongo. I end is a smart guy. And he was trying to build a native and non relational engine on windows for the dot net framework and like a lot of the ideas. He took from mongo. Db we are competitive product. Why will fully admit up but with mongo. Db you've got a much larger organization behind cut a lot more features and it's amazing all the things that de mortgage is used. That's been around for well over a decade shall do you remember when we were founded two thousand seven might have been two thousand nine somewhere somewhere around there so we've been around for a while and we've gone through. There's been a lot of different technologies steps along the way an improvement. So that's remember very angie ireland with that canadian. Who's been quiet. so far we were on the Scott net rocks was at scott net rocks. It was the england. Ireland and scotland tour that we did yes and so we were in dublin. And we're heading out to go meet a friend you know for some traditional music and right next door to the hotel was manga devi. But it was just really. It was really like a a soviet kind of experience. There was just the word mongo. Db in a very small font on the door. You remember this. Richard was like. Isn't that kind of unassuming right for this huge as a company to just have this little door with his little logo. We're not yeah. Yeah yeah no. What i'm saying is it was probably a big office but just under understand it at the front door little door. A little sign on a perfectly normal size ashley right. So what's new in mongo. Db are we talking about atlas. Yeah we can talk atlas. We can talk driver right. We can talk core. Server product shown anything dot the dot net itchy has not been the usual constituency for mongo. Right is normally think of mongo in the context of the lamps. No right the lyrics world austin's often we the the actual core server can run on a variety of operating systems including windows including including a variety of other ones mac. Os things like that. A lot of times. People will build applications in whatever their development languages. And that's something that we've seen a real uptake in is that people were developing on windows dot net applications but we're seeing more and more desire to move dot net applications over I'm for the simple reason. Cheaper to run run faster Full stop mythic end of conversation. Yeah yeah a lot of companies are interested in doing this So that's one and the other thing is sometimes people will question. How much is mugabe committed to the microsoft ecosystem. We have a law of customers. Running the microsoft stack that are connecting among d. b. r. c. Sharp driver team is one of our larger grabber teams. We've got five fulltime members on the team right now that are actively developing features The dot net driver itself has been around for over eight years and we are supporting more and more currently going through a rewrite of our link provider to provide better links support. And that's gonna be coming in a future version so we're very much invested in the dot net ecosystem and in microsoft developers. He had the link side of Curing mongo with link is very interesting is better or worse like is very relational oriented so sort of get this. You know there used to be an odbc driver for excel to. It didn't make it a good idea. My the hyun kidneys. Cram that the link query style into through a among database. There's kind of performance again gonna get from it Quite good actually because from a technical standpoint C. sharp with link is just an abstract syntax tree. It's ast and we take that tree. And then we translate it into the equivalent. Mql were mongo db query language. And so it is actually quite efficient and we can get very good performance Is one of my favorite ways of actually accessing mongo db in performing complex queries often doing aggregations group by operations really crunching. Data is a lot easier to link quiry than often hand Handcrafting the queries yourself. 'cause you still have relations. It's just they're just not you know so diabolically specked out. I mean you just figure them out. On the fly build indexes he the the friendly way to say that his structure he added that in air quote. I like diabolic. Better more accurate. Well one of the. That's one thing that allows good to perform really well compared to a relational database. Is that if you think about your typical sequel database. A lot of your relations are parent child relations. Right where one object fully owns another one. But because sequel a sequel and everything structured tables in you got foreign keys you have to break everything apart. So you're spending a lot of Computation resources breaking things apart and then putting them back together whereas with mongo. Db you've got an order which has a shipping address and a bunch of order line items and a discount. You just jam that all into one document and that can be queried as a whole mugabe also has a very advanced query language so that you can say give me all customers who received a twenty five percent discount right. Even though that percent discount is buried inside order document. But if you think about it you don't want that order documenta ever change because that was the order. That is the truth. This was the point i made on. Jerry miller show all that time ago right is like you know the actual reference to the truth is all the things at that moment. Store those things then. Decompose them later for analysis. And i've done sequel applications. That are like that. They need to know the state of what was the address of that particular time. And you have to put in a whole bunch of machinery and always ensure that new addresses are always inserted in your version in them and all of that becomes very complicated and with mongo db. You just store the current address. Here's a really good example. The dot net rocks database is it is a sequel database and we have a guest table and we have a shows table and you know the guests have a photo and description and whatever and a bio right in anytime that That bio changes it changes everywhere that its reference so you go back to show in back from two thousand to. It's got a bio you know. It doesn't have the original by when picture it's all been updated and so you're listening to reading bio and it's the old bio well. Let's look at it this way. James's i show on two thousand eight and his bio on that show now says he works for mongo dooby before. That's right exactly. I know people are going back. What rachel what's your role at mongo. So i moved. Over to products in twenty twenty and i currently own all of our drivers and ap is and then in addition Framework integration so for php. That's larry will You know for ruby. That's rails and arm rails odiham which is mongoloid so a whole lot of stuff is summary. Boss here yeah. It's it's pretty exciting. I mean i joined manga in two thousand thirteen and it was a really different company. Actually not the tom. We didn't make any money wise. And i actually was when i first joined. I was on the cloud team and it was a much different product. Then this was pre atlas and so i actually have the spreadsheet of win. We first started making money. And i basically backed out our own personal credit cards. And we discovered that someone who didn't work at mongo. Db had paid us and we have a little party. So that's how long it's been now. It's been pretty crazy every day since i haven't been to. The story are of becoming a real company and that's without being acquired without going public like just growing up and that's a rarity to simply grow up in via company. I really recommend it if you can. You can handle a stress much preferred to work in at a big enterprise company. Where you're a cog for. Which is what i did. Prior to mongo. Db big big machines. So we've obliquely referenced times. I guess we better tell that story. So when mongo db atlas so among it'd be atlas is our database as a service platform you can use manga deby atlas with any cloud provider. So that's azure. That's gcp that's aws and essentially you. You know create an account. We have a free tier and it's free forever and you create your own little manga database. And you're up and running and you get your connection string and you're off to the races. It's huge at this point I was also obviously. They are when it was first created wing and a prayer. Hell mary type of style. And now you know we have c. Sharp actually is really big on atlas. We have over ten thousand active projects. Which active is somebody has logged in in the last thirty days and done something. So that's it's it's pretty. It's pretty big enough specifically c. Sharp projects right. Yeah overall project is much much. Larger projects is over over a million. At this point i would. I would presume. C. sharp is still very much a minority player in the in the mongo ecosystem. Yeah yeah you'd be surprised You'd be surprised at chuck. It's fun fascinating to me. You know when. I took over this position. I have to say like i was a little nervous about see sharp because it's one of the languages i've never worked with. I didn't know anything about him. Like microsoft yeah links. I never windows never But actually it's been super fun and it's one of my favorite teams to work with the community is just so great like really great And out of the top. You know i think. Out of the top. Ten gaming companies eight of them use mongo db and a lot of them use atlas actually which is pretty exciting so yes that's an area of focus and then of course like a bunch of Enterprise and financial firms uc sharp. Because it's a serious language. Meant for serious work. It's not an obvious thing. In the way that some other languages are well if you look at our commercials support offering which is where we make a good portion of our money. We're companies pay us to assist them and troubleshoot their applications most of these as you can imagine enterprises and therefore they use enterprise languages. Top top tier is java turnout surprising java c. Sharp is actually really close. Second for me. Let's face it. Essentially have similar origins. Right oh exactly statically. Typed object oriented management memory language in development environments like pretty pretty similar they are brothers yep and then pass that is that no j. us and the rest of our languages fall into down below that but yeah the top. Three languages are java. Java sharp and j. us enterprise side jaw job as he sharp and you sort of classic open web dev at davos. It's going to be no apps. A lot of developers whether java warsi sharp liked to play around with no j. on side. So that's what i've seen in enterprises is that they'll be a microsoft shop and sharper their javale shop so that all be java but then they got a bunch of nausea applications and both teams do exactly that they'll play with no gs his. Everybody has to write a little javascript. It's kind of unavoidable. I'm looping back a bit to them on the to atlas here. So if i'm on azure i can i can by this as a service and is also running on azure so you guys are actually operating on the three major cloud providers yet and actually if if you're worried about it or if you're one of the unfortunate souls who survived one of the aws outages in the past few years. You can actually have one of your each of your manga to be nodes on a different cloud so you can run across cloud which i like that well. Any par par somewhat multi cloud mythology to. It's almost like a checklist. But it's i appreciate that. Yeah you've done that. And so i could sink across these infrastructures if i wanted to migrate or or to have a fail over to another cloud i just have it as a guy who builds a lot of fail over solutions over the past decades. This is disturbing. I haven't seen a lot of fielded multi clouds like we can fail from from. Aws azure or. Did you see like that's just doesn't seem to be much of that. Actually lots of people talking about it. A lot of people talk about it but not a lot of people either. Do it or actually need to do it. Yeah we're i think. Multi multi cloud really plays strong. Especially the cto's is the lack of lock in if you're running on azure and microsoft decides to drastically increase as prices. Yeah you can just port your entire solution over to gdp or it'll be just not going to be free like there's gonna be effort involved with at least doable but it's doable. You do not all of a sudden reconsidering rewrite. My entire data layer in order to achieve these things. Yeah so what you're really describing then is prozac for right. That's actually is. It's like. Keep the cto com gonna be fine. We drop a couple of these in his coffee. You'll be all right. I guess it also depends on how far you depends on how far you go right so you can have everything in another cloud ready to go just laying dormant just images right and then turn it on if something goes wrong rather than invest a whole lot of time and effort and money into automatic fail over stuff you know then then it just comes down to up. Somebody gets a phone call or an alarm and they have to do it really quickly. I still think it would be days like it's just not that trivial wanted to shift that stuff across and and hopefully you're using the m.'s. And and containers and things that are relatively portable. You could go across deeply. Invested in any of the different vendors. Service technologies should've their distinctive analogy. There's going to be hard to move. Yeah that's true well and that's something that when you're building a cloud based application you have to consider a cloud vendors do provide a wide variety of very convenient services but they lock you into their platform. So how locked in are you willing to be. How much risk are you willing to tolerate being locked into. Aws or another platform. And how much do you want the flexibility to move services around. I like Azures coober nettie service because you can use your own docker containers and everything so as long as you have your containers some place ready to go. You could do your own cuban netease in and in gcp or in In an amazon if you need to But while you're on asher you can enjoy all the the wonderful high level stuff of ak s as a sort of separate thing. I think one of the other benefits of atlas is that secure by default. You get less. Esa sale automatically default. You don't have to set up anything which is really nice because you know. That's that's hard you've also got a variety of secur security solutions around like you can log in with a username password which is properly hashed salted over the net. Like you. don't wanna pass. Anything clear taxed You can use l. doubt you can use a api keys. There's a variety of ways of actually authenticating with the atlas service as well as private networks. So that you can isolate your look if you have a azure deployed infrastructure. You can make sure that it goes through private links so you only going across azure controlled. Interfaces you're not ever going out onto the public. Bob that reminds me. I want you to tell people about f. l. e. while we're here before we dive into that. Let's take break for this very important message. If you've had automating your. Espn at deployments. On your to do list. Now's a great time to give octopus. Deploy a try the starter edition. Lets you install octopus on your own infrastructure in deployed i s web servers azure websites and pretty much anything from no d. Coober netease and they just made it free for small teams. Give your team a single place to release. Deploy and operate software with octopus. Deploy find out. More at octopus dot com. This episode of dot net rocks is brought to you by every plate. America's best value meal kit delivery service. Not only is the food fresh and amazing but each meal costs about as much as a cup of coffee. Recipes come together in about thirty minutes definitely faster than a trip to the grocery store and starting a meal from scratch. Every plate gives you easy to follow recipe cards and pre portioned ingredients. C-can spend less time prepping and cooking and more time enjoying good food with family or loved ones. I wanted to see if every plate was as good as it was cost effective and after subscribing and cooking a few awesome meals. I'm convinced that you can get the same deliciousness at a much lower price so experience fuller plates and fat wallet. Try every plate for just one ninety nine per meal plus an additional twenty percent off your next two boxes by going to every play dot com and entering code dot net one ninety nine. That's right with every play for just one ninety nine per meal plus an additional twenty percent off your next two boxes. that's a one hundred dollar value. Go to every plate dot com now and enter code dot net one ninety nine. That's dot net one ninety nine and we're back. It's dot net rocks. I'm richard campbell. That's my friend. Carl friedman and we're talking to james kovacs and rachelle palmer and talk a little mongo. Db all the cool offerings going on there. And james i just interrupt you talking about l. f. e. a. Plant side field level encryption. Yes f. l. e. so what what that is. It's a recent feature that was added to mongo db and it allows you to do your encryption on the client side so you actually acquire encryption keys from an encryption key provider either on azure we now support azure and a and aws. I think we ought as well recently. So any of the major cloud providers they provide a key containers so you can request keys and those are ever only ever seen on the client side. So any data that you read has been encrypted with your key so the server the monkeys can't read it. It's just no pick blob a bits once it gets to the client. It's it can be automatically decrypted so it looks like clear text. So if you're storing hassle you shouldn't be showing say passwords sleep that topic out up. Ppi right like or p. I personally identifiable information which sometimes people want to store. So if you're storing credit card details once again need you really need to But things like social security numbers. Which often you do need to have them stored in your database. But you don't want your cloud provider necessarily to have access to the us. Side field encryption to actually encrypt these fields and ensure that and if you read them it just looks like encrypted bits but if you have the decryption key then all of a sudden it's readable unusable and is your ability to share those keys between devices so that multiple devices could decrypt it even though the store cannot yes So you actually communicate with the the jerky store aka s and if your client is typically do it on a server but if that server has been allowed access to a ks what y'all control take aka infrastructure than that client would be able to decrypt encrypt data to and from that is coming from manga. Db but if it didn't have those encryption keys for instance if it was reporting app that could only report on high level patient information but none of the particulars than you wouldn't grant it access and it would not be able to read those fields but you can go very granular. You can go okay. I want these three fields encrypted. But i don't want these other twelve encrypted at all so you can it not like you have to encrypt the entire object. You can if you want to. But typically Field by field. What sensitive rights. He could protecting specific data. But we we battled this problem with encryption on sequel server to where he was easy to grip the whole thing. But then you you know you just crippled any kind of querying because you had decreased everything to figure out any of that right. Not just a just encrypting sensitive information you just the salary information. Just the identifiable but the index the index stuff important stuff. We've still legible well while the other interesting things that we play with is you. When you're designing your encryption scheme what you can do is you can say. Let's say you're encrypting the salary information. You can encrypt it all with the same key. So they're always encrypt to the same value. You don't know what that value is but it's always the same value right and that allows you to still query it you can't do range based queries but you can do give me everybody who earns fifty thousand dollars stink because you can trip that fifty thousand dollars to a known value and then query the database saying everybody with is known value. I not know what that value is. But i know it's the same across these records exactly exactly so. There's a lot of fun things you can do with that from an application designs chant white insecurity standpoint. Yeah if you if you think hard about it but this whole encrypted before it leaves the device is pretty compelling for a lot of folks right. i don't. i'm not transmitting. It counting on some kind of encryption during transmission and then encrypting it again as it goes to rest on the in the central store and crooked it. Before i left. That's right y'all got for that and that's that's the client side encryption. Then we also do a lot of when you're on asher the bits that actually get out to the actual volumes are encrypted as well so we do on disconnection as well right to ensure that is secure while you guys mungo went through the security ride. I did a run as back in twenty seventeen about the mongo exploit which is like they. Hey you know what would be careful with. Defaults defaults are hard. Yes that it's not. I think it's also you know your products important when it makes but it becomes a part of an exploit like that like and now you have to think about your product differently too. And that was an interesting growing pain going from focusing on startups to an enterprise company off because as a startup. We want people to just be able to spin up a mongo d on your laptop. Not don't have to worry about authenticating anything you just connect to a certain port and you're off to the races so we made it really easy for developers to get mongo. Db setup running. Yeah well that was the problem and we had we had. We had all of our documents at the time. I was working with technical support and we had all the documentation in how secure it a. Nobody bothered insist. The that's the reality because the default was unsecured guy. You kind of have to force them to do the right thing. Even though it impairs their ability to get started yet by the other the atlas is another solution of that is like hey you developed locally. You ready to go into production. Why don't you use are secure one in the cloud and no worry about scaling at an all. Those other things like life will be easier this way. And you're far more likely to stay safe exactly because when you even when you spend up an zero cluster. Which is our lowest free tier always free that is secured not less. It has password protection automatically turned on everything secure by default in atlas as you can try out. I actually spent last week building applications with my team just like let's build a senior application and see what it's like from a user perspective and we just spun up. An atlas database put some data in there and were able to securely connect and started reading a phone app actually right on the device and connecting to atlas so that was a lot of fun but yeah it was secure by default of the box and as you start to scale. That's the other nice thing about atlas is you're going you say okay. Now i need more horsepower behind it this. I've developed the v. next plants versus zombies game. Let's start scaling this now we can. It's literally a click of the button in the u. Is like okay. I need an m. thirty. Which is our dedicated tier. Okay i need something with even bigger up to fifty and one hundred and what we are doing on the back end is basically scaling up the vm's at the running and providing more resources to the back end. She something somebody could do. Your ops team could be scaling mongo themselves. But did they want to do they wanna learn how they this thing and there are definitely people who do that. We do have an in prescription where you can. You can also just do it on community if you want right a lot of your own tooling you can download community for free and start building at your own mogadishu infrastructure. But is that what you want specialized right. Do you get a lot of customer requests asking you to move their relational databases to mongo some some. Yeah i mean that. Is that a common thing. And that's a that's an area that it's an area that i know. Our consulting team does log working obsessive. One of the nice things about maggie is. There's a support team. There's a conservative team. There's an engineer that we got all these different teams can focus on different things. There is a desire to move relational workloads over tomago db depending on the application. Sometimes that can be a good thing and sometimes it is more work than is really warranted. Yeah i don't find that lift and shift is super popular. I think what tends to happen. Is that they sort of sidecar the to databases for a while. And then they'll move workload over but it tends to be that they re architect in the process. Which is why. It's usually a very big projects like let's download all the data and then just put it in mongo. It's it's more like a even considering lifting and shifting. Because you have relational data that now has to be documented. Alexa therefore does need to be reacted absolutely but do. Do you think that if you were going to make the case somebody who's got a hefty sequel azure bill every month. Because they're you know because it's expensive. Let's face it and you know. Maybe it turns out that the shape of their data with lend itself really well to a document database. What's the case. Is it a money in performance. Both make the case there. I think it's both one of the solutions that is is pretty recent. I can't remember what year we debuted our data lake project but it's basically You know you can query your data in s. three bucket and then the results of the query you can put into a manga debbie database. So that's how some companies shift there content or their their data basically to mongo to be atlas which is a pretty nice way to do it because then it's like i'm only moving the data that i need just kind of nice i worked in consulting four gb. I think that you know it's one of those projects that we would love to bid on as a consultancy firm because it will take multiple years. No cost you millions of dollars and then you may not actually get any your net. Your net money gained loss. Might not really be what you were sold. I think well you look at the price of an enterprise license of sequel server today Like it's it's far more than the hardware. The hardware price keeps going down. The the licensed price keeps going up. Right what a sixteen thousand core right now for enterprise sequel server like. It's no fooling like the you could buy a lotta sequel azure for that and i suspect you buy awful lot of atlas for two. Oh that's true totally. I mean that's one of the reasons to move atlas also it's a consumption based model so if you are gonna run on thirties then you which is a sort of a smaller instance is like and then you scale up when you need to or during specific periods of the year. Like if you're a retailer for black friday you'll skill up and then you'll skill back down around valentine's day and it's fine. Yeah i've tried doing that with hardware. It's really tough to take those rams don't do it's not a good idea just leave. Leave those michelle. You don't have hot swap. Richard you pull hard enough everyday talks. That's why yeah. But if you know to that point. This alaska this sort of op ex capital choices like instead of investing in that hardware. And i'm saying this on the it side. These contracts are expiring these hardware. This harbors coming out of warranty. You're looking at in some cases to common numbers worth of equipment in licenses and so forth and you can get an awful lot of variable cost resources for that money. Like i just put that in the bank pay it out monthly and get pretty comparable results and ultimately if i careful and do some tuning and like you said dial down dial up. Those times are can spend less now. Nothing's for free like there's effort involved but by there's nothing easy about buying and setting up new gear either like instead pilot or the other thing that's true and like i'm sure that my our sales team would literally murder me if they hear this podcast but you can also in efforts to developer friendly. We don't have long term contracts for support so if you're using atlas you can purchase a poor because you have a problem or you want a question answered and then you can. Of course cancel your support. So you don't get locked in to this sort of multi year Thousands and thousands of dollars type of deal which is really cool. Yeah and it depends on your organization as to how that works. I also know companies where it's like you don't spend this money you lose it from your budget so you know i've been on the vendor side of that where somebody's calling me saying. Listen i got to this month. What can you sell me once you guys. Give me some kind of contract that shows. I'll get value from you over the next year. I just need this money out of the my account. This you are my friends. I will make something special. i guarantee you. Yeah well and actually the reason we first started doing that is because what would happen. Customers would have some kind of incident or some kind of problem and they would want. I want to support. I don't care how much it cost. i'll pay it right now and we're like no well we'll have to send you to procurement and then you have to sign some papers and they're like can i. Just give you a critical. No you need to start talking now however much money you want to on my problems and also take my money. Yeah yes well again. This is back to the prozac statement. It's like i've been that contract where it's like you pay a retainer to me so that i say there it'll be okay and then go make it okay. Well hearkening back to an earlier comment was. There's a lot of place that the cloud really excels is elastic. Compute resources where you can scale up and scale down. There's a quite a number of business. Not all businesses. But there's a lot of businesses that are very cyclical in nature either seasonal Where black friday. Rush or a i worked with a particular customer who shall remain nameless. Wonderful folks to work with But they they're peaks were around sporting events and every time there was a super bowl or an mc w aa tournament or some big sporting event have a huge spike in traffic. And then it would die down to almost nothing and so with. They were actually on atlas in what they do. Is they scale. Up to very large instances a or two before the big event. Host the big event and yeah. They'd be spending a lot of money for those few days but they've also got a lot of income coming in because of those events and then once those events are done they would scale back down to minimal instances to keep the background traffic going. And there's a number of businesses gaming companies. Do this where they have like. Blizzard has a big launch. And all of a sudden. You're gonna have a lot of traffic hammered. Now we can scale up and then once interest dies down then you scale back down and that flexibility that you're not locked into physical hardware and having to pay too because we're basically with physical hardware you paying for your peak. Now you have to the po provision the pizza and then you've got that peak provision hardware for the other three hundred and sixty four days that you don't need yeah that's absolutely true and certainly this is the new era right. The utility computers that we can buy what we need when we need it and in reasonably short amount of time i mean. How long does it take to move to a higher instance and On atlas minutes. Yeah there's a lot of a we do a lot of Interesting things in the back end. Most of the cloud providers will allow you to tweak their hardware once every six hours right so if you just need a like a very comic database we live and die by aiops guy ops. So if you want to bump up from like a thousand to ten thousand aiops that'll take a few minutes. Yeah i still think if. I might be doing ops coming into black friday. It's like on wednesday. I turn up the nah right and then sort of poke things like everybody. Happy with the big instance and we all good. We don't want to wait until noon on friday for another thing that we were experimenting with Experiment because it's actually in production is auto scale you can turn on auto scaling on your allison. Is that if you see a certain peak load for an extended period of time it will auto scale up to the next instant size. What's the thing you're measuring is like number of transactions are is it i opposite you're measuring ago. This view. Bombardier instance right now. A cpu guys. We're are pinned. Yeah you're processor is pin. Pretty hard bottleneck for mound. Go like i think disk latency zero bottleneck remember. I think you can also do it on. Aiops sedans on your workload if you're doing a very heavy workload. Obviously disguise ops is going to be your primary driving factor if you are doing heavy duty. Educations of where you're doing grouping expressions that's where you can run into. Cbs resource end. Seaview run. We almost never see network run. Hot is typically depending on your workload. It can query heavy and using complex queries like if you're just searching by essentially primary key are underscore field than that takes. Virtually no seaview resort sources resources. But if you're doing a lot of sorting in aggregation in server memory than that can take up cebu you can actually have atlas auto scale so that it will bump up to the next tier up to a maximum the you set and then if it remains if you are below a certain value for typical previously days. I think we're we're getting a bit more aggressive. It can be on the order of ours if you see like your views really running low. You're not using law guy. Oh then you'll drop down your tears again down to a certain minimum set point as it were very much experimenting with this for customers to optimize their costs on atlas. If you could get into daily with is like if you're a retail outlet that's streaming data from transactions but like ten hour window where every store is close like being able to turn that knob all the way down for what is better more than a third of the day or add up over share. Yeah for sure. What about the long term storage side of things is archived. Like i find that. That's an excellent. Sequel azure and these kinds of products as datasets. Get big. they actually get really expensive. And you kinda wanna carve off old data and put it away right so where how. What is the cheapest storage out there in the world today. Blob block store. Yeah whether it be s. Three or azure block store. That is by far the cheapest per gigabyte that you can get so one of the things that we enable is atlas data lake where you can actually pull off your old archive data into an s. Three blob store or a azra blob store and the nice thing about that is although your performance isn't great it's to query -able right so it's still there you know. Is it going to be slower. Because we don't have the full indexes we actually have you can issue mongo db queries against this blob store. Which is quite cool. Yeah but it's it's still there and available for reporting purposes but you're not in incurring the cost of having it hot an available immediately. I should mention the azure sequel does make backups. And so if you screw something up you can just go online into the portal. Find the last backup and restore that to another sequel database. And you're off to the races. That is a very nice feature. But you know you you pay for it. Yep we have automatic backups as well an in atlas so you can actually you can establish a backup schedule a. The backups are snap shotted into asimov's door or orange s three and then you can pick a snapshot and then restore it either to your own. Cluster to cluster. So you have similar functionality. So that you can because you live in companies live and die by the data. Yep and you talk about keeping. Cto's com lose weight like that's bad that'd be cto's get upset win. But so having visibility into data that's old is great but releasing the cost of storing all. Data's because the traditional solution is just delete data. Right or i built archive systems. Auto remote stores is archive it onto tapes yet but having it all built into the platform and we are investing in this as well so to make it easier to right now last. I looked You could either query the data that's in atlas or the the data and data lake. We're one of our goals is to provide a holistic view of it so it will look like the same collection but data that is past a certain year at certain point old will actually exist in s. three and be queried for automate that shuffling i can run into toads Over do do a batch. Once a week this sorta hunts down the oldest stuff in pushes over that street. But i'd rather more me than it's your fault. The other real selling point. I think is that there is automatic upgrades of your manga debbie server version. Which you don't have to do that anymore. Right break right but yeah it's nice that it's you know upgrading. Gnarly takes effort. But you always doing it wrong. At least if if the the vendor is doing it they're probably doing it right and if they're doing around they're upset rags up people at once and hopefully no breaking changes of version to version. Yeah we have a process where you know for the entire platform like said there is over a million active projects so we don't roll it out to all one million at the same time we we basically roll it out to a randomized ten percent and wait and then another twenty percent and wait and then another twenty percent and wait and then the remainder so if we have to. We can rollback of version upgrade. If we see that there are any problems with the i. Ten percent and related to that is not only mogadishu upgrades but os upgrades. You have to run your server software out on us and it's always a hassle. There's a new windows version. There's a new lennox patch comes out and going through the rigmarole of having to upgrade all of your servers. That once again taken care of. Portia not you guys mentioned if free skew atlas what are you get. Oh i don't know we saw. James will have to look up the stats. It seems like a lot. There are a lot of people using it and not just for a tinkering and not for learning mongo db but there are actually people who are running production level apps in our free tier which is kind of fascinating. We did a survey we sort of assume that most people who were Running applications on our free tier sort of learners or students or beginners with mongo. Db but that didn't turn out to be true based on the responses to the survey so yes so you can start out at five hundred twelve megabytes storage for free. And i think there's also a limit on connections and a limit on aiops. But i don't recall what they are sure. So if you have your your stuff out there your clusters or your your shared. Cluster and In turns out lo and behold everybody wants to be on it you know and it becomes popular. You can sort of migrate that up. I suppose that's great. It's also i mean. I use the free tier buy-sell for you know some one of the things i did. This year was analyzing stack overflow developer survey data. So i just put it in mongo. Db and then did some charts so that could look like a cross sections of developer communities. That was cool for that. And then last year i did a health little app which was mobile in a web app and they used our free tier for that and then used it for a talk me world so it's nice to get something up quick quick and running. I think when it comes to my health. I'd want to impact other than but it's also especially with demos it's like i don't like it in the bill at the end of the month because i forgot to turn the flipping off not that. That's this is all good stuff guys very very good. What's next what's next for you james offer me. We're working so. I've been working on the sharp driver and we of new features coming one of the features as coming in the next few days is were introducing. Better lennox support. So if you've got a dot net core apps running on lenox We're going to be adding the ability to feel bubble encryption. Cfl and the fear that i implemented was actually kurosawa. Nice so we're actually talking to the gp shared library on lenox and doing all the funding perot's ticketing stuff and that was believe me. I understood. for bruce before because i knew tickets i new server tickets a new Your ticket to all that actually. Having to implement the bits on the wire is a total total level of understanding. How you can see sharpe seven. These days We actually recently upgraded to c sharp nine po. And we can we do this. Hey we can if if we use a c. Sharp nine feature that requires compiler Libraries sport than we get under myler so we can use all of the new cool features like record types and others that come with c. Sharp nine and eight at did. I did mean to say nine seven. Oh okay moving in the past. But ultimately i know there's a lot of lot of really nice language features that allow you run much clearer code in c sharp and just some of the things that we're used to from functional languages are definitely coming over to see sharp you were. So what's what's in your sharp team I really you know. I've mentioned the gaming before. I started digging in on that and so have asked some of our developer advocates and developer relations teams to do Unity tutorials for c. Sharp from from beginning for beginners so build off entire game in ninety minutes so they've started doing youtube Live streaming of building a game in. It's sort of paired programming exercise. I think it's going to be really cool And then the other thing that. I'm gonna probably ask the team to do is I keep an eye on whenever we have sort of a little swell of users asking for certain things or complaining about thing and so probably going to ask the team to do serialisation improvements ca notice. There's a few tickets that come in faster and make it better. Yes the there's always going to be those. Yeah never fast enough those thing but it gets you know you're the pm role you could see the this hit a critical mass where it's like. Better look at this as something narrada to prove well in the serialisation movements are interesting because we actually have unlike some of the other drivers in one of the I was interested in joining the c. Sharp team is that our serialisation infrastructure includes complete. Odium object document map. So it's you don't just have to work with documents you could actually say. I've got a customer i've gotten order. Are you actual pocos then automatically get translated into the equivalent document structures by the drive itself. So you can get your business layer abstraction level and what the driver worry. That is really cool james. Glad you're working on. That's very cool. Well james kovacs and shell palmer for spending this hour so much for having us anytime pleasure seeing you too. And we'll talk to you next time. Dot net rocks dot. Net rocks is brought to you by. Franklin's net and produced by plop studios a full service audio video and post production facility located physically in new london connecticut and of course the cloud online at p. w. o. p. dot com visit our website at dot n. t. c. k. Ks dot com for rss feeds downloads. Mobile apps comments and access to the full archives. Going back to show number one reported in september two thousand to make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code. Cnx time law.

microsoft james kovacs rachelle palmer carl franklin jerry miller martin fowler jill dougherty richard cable james Scott rowdy Alex fair alex rich campbell James kovacs rochelle palmar mongo db Db james scott net rocks mugabe
E44: Jon Tibbs

Unofficial Partner Podcast

53:34 min | 1 year ago

E44: Jon Tibbs

"Hello welcome to unofficial partner. This is Richard Gillis. I'm peering this week into that sort of weird world of international PR with Particular reference to the big major event bidding campaigns over the years. And we're looking at how the Olympics is faring in that world and now and in the future and there's very few people but qualified to talk about this stuff and John Tips. We went to John's London offices at John tibbs associates to talk to the man himself about a career in international sports. Pr which is seen. John and his team working for a very broad group of clients from Beijing in Qatar Paris. Through to the so cheesy twenty fourteen winter bid and majesty united more laterally. Tips is careers often seen through the lens of his battles with the late. Mike Lee most famously on your opposite sides of the race for the two thousand twelve Olympics which ultimately of course went to London rather than Paris who John's clients. At that time we talk about a lot of things in this podcast and for regular listens. It's probably worth going back and checking out a previous unofficial partners pod with Charlie sale the Daily Mail columnist who took great delight in referencing tips and Mike Lee Regularly in his columns people at Charlie's sale. They absolutely love the fact that there were these two Charleena say to PR. Titans were a war with each other as you're here. John is very open about his journey. Very candid about Helen. Knowlton days about the relationships within the Olympic world The only thing he wouldn't or couldn't talk about was his current relationship mentioned united and we respected that so with that caveat here is John Tips. Don't tips thanks. Where in the west end hub just off Regent Street and meets Mayfair. I say this you're looking very e- even running of lost fifteen kilos since March running and a bit of bit of Diet Yeah. I'm not that critical age where I've decided that I can keep living in life in the Fast Lane and Nazi seventy five or I can moderate a little bit and hopefully see ninety-five Thurgood. Good luck with that. Is marked is very notable. Thank for their normally coming people's personal appearance and you're looking very well as an ageless. That's all that's all skin I. There's so much talk about. I'm really I want to get going because there's loads of things. I wanted to London. Twenty-two talk about Mike Lille and talk about all sorts of things around bidding. But before we get to all of that Palaver. That people know you about you or teacher. I was really wondering what sorts because you're intimidating person so I imagine they're in the classroom. You would be quite a scary end of the teaching spectrum. Well it was actually fairly scary for me to go into teaching our. Yes I when I was six form at school. I didn't really know what to do. So they always say if you don't know what to do go into teaching if you don't know what to teach teach geography and if you can't show goofy do geography and PA. That's exactly what I did. I told Josephine. Mp and I went from some Luke's physical education college part of Exeter University as it was then into the nearest school. It was a boys' independent school down the road when I was age. Twenty one and within three weeks teaching oxbridge geography And given that I'd only got a C. Myself at a level job Raphia. I was slightly scared and nervous of that. Potatoes were because there were six goals allowed in the school that they were eighteen. Neural goals in the Oxford geography class. And I was a twenty one year old. Young teacher went very red very easily very embarrassed. They work this out and it was perhaps the most intimidating thing. I've ever had of a sort of you know Rome Com. Yes you know. There was no no wrong. Komo nothing dark but let me just tell you how intimidating it was so I developed this rather more severe persona sort if you like as a as a reaction to those early days and I don't think I was too severe. I was a bit eccentric. Maybe if you are some of my former pupils but I was definitely not too severe on the rugby pitch. I think I might have been the Nathan Homer. Formerly on this podcast. We should say John John Toby by the way thank you. Yeah sorry the thing is looking at it. We've had who we dame heather bats so that Beats Jones does does way way above. Yeah and then we've had somewhere. Oh picky goes lean same and we big moment for each coming in the unofficial podcast Nathan. Home I don't know why. Went from main basin homer to gongs is not going to go but he was a teacher. I remember. I'm inside the Hammarberg. He was a bit of a Boston. Two KS type and now I'm framing you in the same same sort of out there shouting smacking. I put the ball on the back of legs. There was no smacking all physical punishment of any sorts as you can imagine but Yeah I was a rugby coach. I did all my Are A few coaching courses. I also that time was playing rugby and qualified as a referee And so you know. Rugby was my main sport coaching hockey. Men's hockey I didn't even know really existed until I went to university and ended up coaching playing hockey as well. Because it was very much a hockey school in the eastern so we need to get from a school in the West country too will hill known but via CSS. What was the what was it? How did you get out of education and Inter Murky World of Sports Agency? It's a long story but I looked after the school rock band and They were called Alibi and they got through to the final of TSB Rox School On National TV. I think the breakfast Mike might read breakfast. Tv show to symphonic. Yeah that's the final and the final of Tsp. School was live on Saturday morning and my band got through to the final and the drama was meant to be on a history field trip at the time to America. Not that I knew that no disrespect but the Americans have much history to merit trip. But he he was meant to be there so I had to Go to the headmaster and say don't let him go. We need him live TV great for the school and so on and the headmaster while you're going to have to pay for yourself to rejoin the history field trip if you want it so I committed to doing that and went to espn the sponsorship company people there and said. Can you help me out? They said it's a great story. We'd love to help out your drama. We'll pay for him to rejoin his history trip and they did a whole bunch of bit of local. Pr On the back of. And I thought that is a really cool worlds that sponsorship the whole side of things so we came second in the final on national TV but it kind of made me realize I wanna get out of teaching and into the sponsorship worlds and so I started. Applying to sponsorship agencies. Got offered a job too at the same time. A one was by Alan Pascoe's company A. P. as they were then and the other one was CSS and they offered it to start sooner so Nine thousand nine hundred eighty nine joined. Css and Stellar stellar then. Boomtown majority that sheds but when I first joined they were very much a motor sport and at the forefront of pioneering football sponsorship. So they did the Buckley's Sponsored the football league they did all the crown paints stuff in the G. locks the early sponsorship stuff that went on in in football I want ships and also they handled all of the Williams Formula One sponsorship at the time when Williams were the number one team nine hundred insult Nigel. Mansell bats all of that yes. Crown Paints Liverpool. Yes is yeah and various others yet but it was a whole range of different Smolder sponsorships and but also they piloted the big first leak sponsorships as well one of my my great successes was being involved in ends delays sponsorship of the Football League. Yes insurance ends. Ain't students insurance mainly famous for. Yeah that's good memory. Thank you and Hilton. Yes he moves so that was a big money. Transfer was it well. Selling sponsorship was a bit like double-glazing selling or insurance selling you'd go changed by that no to be honest because I've not been involved with it well but I got bored of going in and people say no. It's not for us so then worked out quite quickly. Actually if you asked a simple question what what are you looking to do? And who I who? All your target audience. Simple questions that you would actually walk counted. Every rejection with a brief so I started collecting these briefs and started matching up other people's properties or even creating our own properties too much breath so my career move forward at that point very quickly and came to the notice of Hillen Alton through some Shed clowns and they asked me to come in and in the mid nineties and set up a dedicated sports division to kind of bring together all the different sports properties they had such as Addidas such as bt global challenge such as Athens Olympic bauge which were all housed in different consumer divisions departments or even some corporate ones. So they said we got enough revenue. Now she put it all together and have a dedicated sports too. You see look. Who's in that room in the north of that point? Oh my goodness knows. The WHO's who of the current sports industry and jars more than I did indeed inherit giles. Giles was a I think. Originally an intern there Although he would probably deny that but he was certainly a junior accounts executive but very ambitious and and certainly trying to make his mark early on and I distinctly remember him going off to Atlanta for the Olympic Games there on behalf of the on behalf of dust and doing a doing a typical Morgan job claiming credit for for all the great successes whilst the rest of the team were. Were back sweating away. No Jolson Nice. It wasn't quite Steve. Martin was that right deep. Steve was running. The whole body does account. Then EP think in those days I need us was we were billing. Probably A MILLION. A year in the united us in good years just belong clients in a utterly extraordinary. I mean my agency is only modestly bigger than that now. It's extraordinary to think most how you didn't so that was sort of what we just. P R I D. That's Predator would have been at that time we just before I arrived so I came in on the back of the huge success of the launch evaldas pregnant and that was an amazing calling card for the sports division for us to be able to go and present those credentials to insult twelve year. Mostly at that point. He was scary for me because obviously he was a bit of a bit of a guru that in the if you like in the consumer PR sports world. And I'd come in from sponsorship agencies so notice respect to Stephen his team I detected a degree of surprise and modest animosity towards me that I'd come in from outside the PR industry to take over sports division. When I think he felt and others felt perhaps he should have been running that division. Just saying how long did did he hanging around him? That was then went to the to catch him. He then he then left. I think he went in house to Ati for a while and then moved onto the back into the agency weld and the rest of his stellar career. Is there for all to see? And it's brilliant to say it. Because he he. He's a charismatic. Bright Creative Guy who I think. He's worked incredibly hard for the success. He's got your car lovely gesture. So let's let's just just jump get to the next bit which on linked in which is obviously my main source of research. It goes from your noten into J. J. T. I remember but there is. That feels like it sort of masking a few moves that true yeah. I think it's deliberate. But it's just that I've never really got my My head run linked him promptly but yes from Hidden Alton. I had rather strange period at bell. Pottinger where Timbo Lord Bell that was Wanted someone to come in and take over a sports marketing company that he had bought Michael Humphreys and partners so I was brought in to to work as managing director and try and turn it around into a really big profitable sports marketing sports. Pr Agency which was harder than much harder than anyone Realize it was going to be an an. I didn't enjoy. It was a tough time. The good thing about it was a hit a Knowlton. I work on. The Is See Crisis Management Salt Lake City. I also worked on the Athens Olympic bid and at Bell Pottinger through Lord Bells Connection to Rupert Murdoch We were asked by the Chinese government to help them out with the Beijing. Two Thousand Eight Olympic bid so actually my Olympic credentials began to grow further and having worked onto successful bids and crisis management. I I left Bell Pottenger. Pretty much. You know enamored with what the Olympic well could bring in. That's partly how we got into where we all now. So the bidding only interested in bidding thing is that it's all world to itself but what's it like being in those rooms with with because let should we. Should we use the London two thousand twelve campaign as Liang's to get into this a lot? People were no lost. You're on the Paris side and you had mightly in Vero on the on the London side and that was so that framed of it. That was a bit of Charlie. Sale was very fond of that sort of you know he was very keenum writing those sorts of stories. They were yeah. I mean to be fair as a Brit obviously I left bell passenger freelance in around two thousand two and at that time two thousand to two thousand and three the London. Twenty twelve paid was really coming together. Craig Redial SA- Craig. Reedie was really getting things going with a number of other key stakeholders government and son Richard Cable and and so it was definitely moving towards a formal bid and I was really keen to pick them up as a client. I remember once having lunch with Craig. Reedie Debbie Jevans and a Daily Telegraph Olympic correspondent. Iain Macleod the Stingier Club Craig's Club. And he he said I want u-3 working on London bit while one of them made. It was Debbie and the other two. Didn't I when Barbara Cassani was appointed? I went to her and Craig introduce me to her and she told me. I'd have to wait at least a year until the communications director have been appointed in to pitch to him because he wasn't her choice to to hire me as as a consultant. So I am. I didn't wait I waited I would've been having to me. I would have had to gone to might leave for application to be a consultant. I didn't know Mike very well at that time anyway. He was UEFA but I just couldn't wait. I needed that. Olympic bidding work and pirates. Were only too happy to take A Brit onto to help them and what was the what was it like. Yeah Gay just going back to that that. What's the job really when you when you boil it down the job of a bid committee or of people like me people are well? We're I and now. Jt We're a bit of a hybrid because we offer clients communications consultancy so traditional public relations as sort of whatever it's B. Two B. B. Business to consumer but we also offer international relations. And we're probably the first agency that has set up with a dedicated international relations practice. That is the advice and guidance to help cons influence people want to one all through some people. Call it through lobbying in effect. We like the Public Affairs of Sports. So we have this sort of public relations adamant and a public offense element to to what we do. And we try and create an integrated strategy to influence stakeholders in the Olympic worlds to move in the direction our clients want and if it's a bid city that's moving them towards a vote to moving them towards voting for one city ahead of another all one person campaigning for office over another person campaigning. For an office. So there's plenty of work in the world because it is immensely political and what other sorts of incentives levers that you realistically can pull because we got those. Two things populations in public affairs. One feels like building fame. Your inner the media is constituency the public affairs. It's the other way as your your one to one. It's one to one conversations knowing how to handle those conversations who to have those conversations with how to how to influence them in the right way. The public relations side is what we call the mood music. If the move music and a great restaurant is is good. You don't really notice. It just adds to the positive ambulance but you sure do not if there isn't any or if it's poor Obama and so getting public relations right will never win you votes but it will help in the general mood music of of the more direct campaigning. What was the music than running into the Singapore run into that London Paris decision? Well the Paris had not run a communications campaign today. Despite our best advice that they had a way of doing things. There was a lot of self belief that they were in good shape. They had just come off the back of an Olympic day a month before going to Singapore a month or so before going to Singapore where they close the whole And gave us sort of a common try out? Every Olympic sport opportunity for the Public. They had up to a million people on day and it went all the way from the art. The trump to plastic concord. I'm beyond and was an extraordinary site front page of the Financial Times. Have US run that event. I think it was an extraordinary sites. And it was on BBC World. It was CNN front page of Financial Times. It really was a a great way to go into Singapore. Think they were confident. I think they were super confident that they were in good shape but reality was they hadn't done the work on the public aside they they did not put in the miles in the Hawk graph to win the votes That would necessary and London absolutely nailed it on the those going the extra mile to win those votes and the whole way they handled that. Singapore campaign probably resulted in a swing of up to six seven members which was more than enough for them to win off of a what size constituency in all one hundred fifteen in those things around that so it was. It was an way you mean you told with Mike. Lee does not starting not starting there now that that happened much earlier locking horns might so when might became the COMMS director of London and I was sort of quietly behind the scenes Working out of the pirates office people like Charlie Sale. They absolutely love the fact that there were these two Charleena say to titans were at war with each other now. He loved it and Listen to this. I should do impressions so Charlie loved the fight that they were to Brits and for him that became much more fascinating story and other is always followed a bit of Charlie's lead on that but the the the advantage for me was new journalists So People Adrian Warner were coming through and Mountain Ziegler and People like Erskine McCullough. They you know the old. Afp Olympic journalists. The you know these people have had known for a long time so it wasn't as if you know Mike had an easy ride and he knew I was able to brief them comfortably in reasonably easily overbearing. And so it becomes a bit a bit of a battle over the winning hearts and minds of British media sort of shaped certainly on the media side at that point the perception of What the beating world is. I never quite sure how is always painted. Lucky quiet rooms and we made people sort of being arm wrestled all being charmed. What was it like what what? How do you go about trying to change? Someone's mind about well. I think to be fair. It is very different now compared to say the Beijing biddle. The Athens bathing. Things have moved on But it is still the autism persuasive communications whether it's influencing in through what they read and hear about in the media right away to how you will convince them that a bid is a lot more advantageous for them than another bit and that Con- just happen in one conversation over a period of time so relationships is everything you need to build relationships with the voting member and that needs to be done not through third party so we never got involved in lobbying on behalf of our clients. We would advise Auckland how they would work with an influence the voting members and then finding the right time the right place to begin your you'll you'll conversations and then carry on those conversations tracking what you said to them before writing and making sure you understand everything that they told you you know so that you can address it next time you meet them bit by bit Developing that relationship to a point where they can see the competitive advantage of your bid over another bit so again from the outside. There's there's that sort of hell can we trust the process? How transparent is it? The problem I can see if I was one of these icy members be this would be happy. Days are being sort of twenty five stone of eating drinking every every day being schmoozed. And you're at the center of that universe. How do you stop it? Not being corrupt well. I think the Salt Lake City scandal. Which where she worked on the Crisis Management Michael Pain with my clients at the at the time that did change things for the better that put in place so late nineties going into the you know the first bidding process for Winter Games I think the young Chang versus Salzburg Winter Games at that time there were new rules. Put IN PLACE. That actually prevented a loss of the excesses. And the if you like the miss the abusive of the bidding process that went on and things dramatically improved after the. Icp sort of you know. Put themselves through that process and it's got better ever since to the point now where there is hardly a bidding process Instead there is hardly you know there is hardly a The new rules that we currently see could actually see a decision being taken without divides It's it's gone all mice the other extreme now so I think over the last twenty years I've noticed a big improvement in governance and the way in which is e bidding is conducted but obviously the icy needs to be fully aware that those perceptions did exist and and. I think they are on the they constantly. Try and address it but there are. I agree with you. There is still the perception out that that Election Process in sports is not just in ICU. But in across all big sports bodies is not as transparent and clean is. Perhaps it is what I mean again. The WE'VE GOT personnel. A together is. Is there an industry? I mean I was just wondering about the remote remembering sort of the run into things lightly. England two thousand eighteen bid the Qatar Bid's World Cup it was a really vibrant and noisy sector and people. Were making a great deal of money as as advises does that what exists anymore because the what's the next big bid suppose fee for twenty thirty years. I mean obviously England England Arlanda putting their hat in the ring for that China of the received. Wisdom is that fiefdom may go to China because they won't go to resist the lure that China's not confirmed that they wanted to go for it yet and I should think they're going to have a few other things on their plate to deal with probably between now and that decision so fico is exists as a as a bidding marketplace for consultants. I think the IOC despite everything. I just said about them changing their rule significantly if you look at the runners and writers for twenty thirty two and that is extraordinary that we're talking about a game twelve years out now but that's what's happening. We've got Australia. Who are ready to put an offer on the table to the icy right now and they may say take it or leave it. You've got a year to decide if if you don't wear out It's again Widely reported that the I would love to see a North South Korea bid for twenty thirty two. That could happen still if Us peace talks resume with North Korean. India is widely reported to be interested in bidding for twenty thirty to Germany reportedly. Putting Vince. It goes on the list goes on. It's quite remarkable. How many now. Every one of those announcements will see a troop of consultants knocking on their door saying well we can help you. Even though at twelve years out so the decision isn't due for another five years on the old basis but on the new basis the IFC so we can make a decision whenever we like whenever we deem it fit that there is an appropriate city in place. So is that the end of the bidding industry for consultants. I think not. I think we'll we'll find a way we'll find a way because you're worried about the IFC. Iran saying don't spend waste money on consultants deal with us. Talk to us with the ones who can help you but it calls. It's a competitive situation. India want to beat no South Korean. North South Korea wants to be tough straight. So you look for Exton advice to give you a competitive advantage. Just mentioned my life a couple of times more you. What was the difference between you and him and what was. How did he see you? Do you think in terms of that was the do need that. Competition to make the difference between his agency in an agency was he specifically set up. His agency is a campaign CONSI. I'm very proud of it. I needed a remarkably good job. I was extremely skeptical. That it would work when he left London and set up her but he went on to prove me wrong. Many other people wrong and had a thriving and successful business with a great reputation pretty much entirely based on campaigns and the more political and aggressive those campaigns could be the benefit him and he he made his reputation from being a hard tough but you know pragmatic successful campaign whereas we would take him pain business but as sort of if you like the icing on the cake businesses much more on the traditional public relations model of long-term retainers Giving clients corporate reputation advice issues management. Advise you proactive. Communications advice and execution of advice on an ongoing basis so some clients such as the the royal family of Jordan. We've been working with since two thousand and three so For us the model was very different. We campaigns were icing on the cake. How did he do me? It's a massive Shane that he's not here to answer that but I think he viewed me as an irritating an irritating competitor that needed to be swatted down occasionally but but we had our coming together over the years but I think there was a grudging respect between us both about each other's work just when he thought we were out completely in our reputation would never recover from another loss. Then we would end up with a win. And so an EPSOM float a little bit like that but overall in Olympic bidding might was and woke up eating. Obviously Mike was significantly more successful than anyone else in the business. So more sort of broadly. The sports washing phrase is now banded about we're seeing that attached to Saudi at the moment and various other places. Does it work? Do you think I think in the sense that we're even talking about S- countries that are being accused of sports? Washing gives an opportunity full reputations to be discussed and put out that I think it doesn't work on. Its own but I think as part of an overall will integrated approach by a nation or city to improve its image using sports and bidding for and hosting major sports events is a good way of helping. The world changed that view and opinions on a country so despite all the problems that say Catta have had with Western media. They are still able on the back of the hosting fee for World Cup to get some amazing stories coming out now about what they're doing and they wouldn't normally have had that opportunity if it wasn't for the World Cup. Do you think in terms of this perception level and the reality does does anything change. As a result of sport major sports events you think in terms of the argument in favor of say dictatorships for example or totalitarian regimes hosting major. Sports events is that it's the sunlight argument. Do you think that isn't much evidence that actually happens and that works? Fundamental change happens rather than. Yeah I I think the opportunity to test. That question came from two thousand eight with Beijing and twenty fourteen with such to to to be blunt. I think Beijing China could have done even more than they did to capitalize on the massive success in global interest in the Games and that kind of apt away but they go to another bite now with twenty twenty two so I think they realize that they can keep this Olympic opportunity going for them to just to change some of the Western perceptions of China. There are certain things that will never change and they they recognize that in Russia so chee obviously Was a huge opportunity. Not just to change some perceptions in Russia that also took completely and comprehensively redevelop the whole region which the latter has happened so the the region is transformed and is now a very cool year round winter. Some result that that is attracting millions more tourists than they had before reputation wise because of various things that happened during the Games and reveal to happened after the Games. It probably hasn't worked out quite as well as Russia had hopeful because they definitely wanted to have a perception shifts on the back so cheesy but good things happened in Russia because of it. They now have a volunteer culture. Where which they didn't have before they now have a much greater awareness throughout Russia. Sporting events and all events in urban planning for the need to cater for people with disabilities. These types of things that Are often not talked about but Russia is definitely a better place for the Games because of that. Is it inevitable that there's a sense of disappointment about legacy? I mean legacy is just looking at because of the just the over claims that a made going in and people within start to say well afterwards. This didn't happen. That didn't happen. But that's the nature of the marketing cycle at the beginning presumably built up unrealistic expectations of major events. Is that what I think that needs to be a lot more attention to seeing a promises of legacy followed through The problem is once the rights holders are Outta town Often the stakeholders that bid for those rights change and people are less committed to legacies that were promised eight years previously. I think it needs to be better. Mechanisms put in place that absolutely see the guarantee of those legacies followed through and that will help generally the sports world greater credibility for some of these migrants when it goes to the getting public vote in favor of the major sporting as is difficult now is that is that just a sort of. It's tempting to wonder whether or not the IRC the Olympic Movement and big sport is out of step with the sort of man on the street argument that the brexit schism they're actually they're perceived to be part of the problem rather than any great solution. I mean these Referenda referendums in western nations. Because they don't seem to have a problem with the public votes in Russia and China and other places that these Western public plebiscites. If you like are definitely a problem and and what amazes me is the bid. Organizing committees forbids will hire at great expense top consultants to write that bit books to handle the marketing and public relations. And everything like that but when it comes to marketing to the local people they don't to employ anywhere near the same degree of professionalism so time and again there have been failed plebiscites in the last five or six years where I have been shot at. How amateurish the marketing campaign is being to win the votes from the people. Is there a gap between the sort of expectations on on the coast side and the rightsholder side of sort of is that they talking the same language? I think yes. There have been some some major issues in terms of of of how host cities or or bid cities and then they become host. Cities have misunderstood. Exactly what the rights holders are expecting and demanding and that needs to be cleared up much earlier and vice versa. You'll be a probably yes. Yeah I mean Sweden and other parts of Scandinavia. For example have recently had some major issues over this way host city contracts have been revealed to the public before before the bidding process has been decided. And that's resulted in outrage in misunderstood misunderstanding from local media as to exactly why some of the riders for Inc or whoever our in our in those contracts and so it can be very easily misunderstood the global sports and Richard who was initiative team of the Swedish Winter Games. He would be the environmental question and in relation to major event. That feels like a sweet numbers. He went very big on that and they were they lost but it feels like that was always remember running into Sydney and the other side. Lots of people talking about environmental sustainability. It was sort of tick box exercise to an extent. Now it feels a bit more existential Do you think that message has got through to those members that Utah in those rooms in the ICU? Like they realize the urgency of the story that they're telling compared to say extension rebellion. Yeah I think The membership of the ICY has changed dramatically since even the two thousand and five for London. I would say a nearly fifty sixty percent of those members of now retired and there's a new breed much younger members from a much more diverse set of Of World's back home from the business side from the NGO signed from the sporting side. But there is a really diverse young amendment. I AC- membership now and naturally because they've these people have grown up with much more concern over over the environment and climate change. There is a greater awareness amongst voting members of the need full the I S C to be part of the solution to some of the world's Environmental problems so yes. I hope and believe that there is a there is a shift in mentality is the average age of on this guy. I don't know the answer to that but you tell me what do you think it is? I think he sixty something I would think I don't know so we'll oskarshamn someone from the ICU. No DOUBT WILL. Ping response biked on this when you go live I would say would be low sixties mid mid to late fifties and male female. Getting better all the time getting getting getting better all the time and and gender equity is definitely one of the areas that under under. President Thomas Bach. They have made a huge difference. It's still more work to be done but if you look around the IFC now you would think even you would be surprised at just how balanced it becoming still still multiple done okay. So let's let's have a Olympic world because I just wanted it. There's a there's a few questions I love the I I really interested in what it's like when a crisis breaks when when they say of shipping the real shit has hit the fan and we are in trouble and then we need high-level comes advice and they get on the phone. What's that first day like? Crisis REPEAL PROP Appel crisis well in an ideal world. You don't want to be cold by any one seven a crisis because then you everything is going to be that much difficult to to deal with. ideally. You would want to be working with clients in helping them anticipate any area where they may have a crisis so the first step is always to to do vulnerability audit is. How vulnerable are you to a crisis and all you prepared for it and if not we need get you prepared for every type of vulnerability you may have again. This feels like a lovely strategic document is is waiting to be sold to a client listening to this cost but then you've done the audit they then something exceptional happens. But then if you've done a good job in preparation and any organization should have this does matter how large or small every organization should be considering this type of work. Then you already have a plan in place and you just move not necessarily seamlessly rather putting panicky. But you move into that plan and you begin to put the plan in place whether it's communication side of all the operational side of of the plan the to get a cool when a client is already in a major crisis is is tough because you are coming in inheriting a brand that is already challenged with no systems and processes in place. So it's a very different type of assignment than working with a client that is already a retain con that is facing an issue so less. Prince Andrew What do you make that interview from? Just BINGO PROFESSIONAL PERSPEC- Well I've been nominated in. Pr Week for one of those influential people along with. I'm sure you're in there as well is undefined and I want to know in but to be fair I I was asked for my worst. Pr Campaign of the year versus PR. Moment of the year whatever it was and I had to sign that because it was just as bad as you could get. What would you have said? Well why wouldn't have said anything I wouldn't have put him on. I just would not have put him on. He in it was a story that was watching waning a bit in terms of media interest. But it it. It certainly didn't. It wasn't a global story wasn't broadcast in every major media outlets around the world and he made sure that that was the case and if we believe what we read he. He turned down rather solid strong public relations advice and went off on some other advice. From a non professional person and The rest was self evident in what you think I thought it was just the most compelling thing I've ever seen yeah opposite whether it was. I just couldn't believe I wonder if he's sitting there open. Cup seems to get worse and worse. Everything he said just made everything was nothing. He said that made things anything any better. But it was so clear that he hadn't rehearsed it so that you know one of the great things that PR people do is they would top politicians all the way down you practice you practice you a hearse. You coach you guide. And and had he done that then everyone around him including himself would realize. This isn't going very well. Well basically I mean I always a bit rent but I I hate so media training because it turns it makes people. Boring may any avoids interest in a in a crisis. Boring is not too bad. You'd settle for boring in a crisis from the from the Cup in terms of just in terms of the entertainment or they'd is sending prices stocks Prince Andrew. A that was a that was an exception. But I do think on a day-to-day basis politicians. Sports Stars are quite tedious. To listen to and I blame may training. I do blame me specifically so it's not that you make a good point that there are people who are media trained to death and nail deadly boring but part of the job of people if you lie consultants lot myself is to train people to be interesting and dynamic and energetic and compelling so media training doesn't involve training people to be boring in an issue it's slightly different. You WanNA close down things. A little bit and direct people back to where you want them to be focusing on and that doesn't require making jokes and being compelling and entertaining in that way but generally training is about telling people to smile and talk you as a personality not as a brand and selling the. I blame you for Donald Trump and Boris Jones. Okay yeah a sort of an emblem but appear in fraud appearing to seek normally outside of that narrow code media. Training is taught us. Oh gives these people sort of license and the personality. My mom says bars lovely blind. I see now. There's no but it's he's unbeatable election. I would argue that turning away from those characters. I would argue. It's possible to do both to be on message but still have an incredibly engaging personality okay lay off the forward now into what's the future for Johnson. Jt We're rounding heading to the end of his interview. John as you but on evening wound up. There's lots of money around. Do you think you'll get you looking for someone to buy or is it? Well there's there's a lot of money around in sports marketing in general but that tends to evolve around things like rights and and obviously the sort of if you like innovation around new technologies for content distribution and so on so we don't get to see quite as much of that new money as we would like we in that sense still quite traditional Communications Agency and whilst we are profitable doing reasonably well we are not on that fast track of Getting investors swarming all over us to To out because they see us as the new the new great thing. We're very happy doing what we're doing. We got a stable of about twenty two twenty. Three coins All over the world we we all brexit proof because we've been exporting Pretty much Since the word goes so we'd be exporting all services outside the E U for a long time now so the Brexit doesn't come as a concern to us we'll continue to grow. We acquired a design agency. That's been good for us. We'll try and get more digital work out of that. We've opened an office in La. We've opened an office in Beijing. We're opening an office in the Middle East. My Managing Director Submarine Townsend. As she is now is Down in In in between Geneva in Lausanne we'll be offering Opening an office there. So we're growing steadily and term but I'm risk-averse. I'm not a big risk taker. So it's slow. Steady growth is aw and as long as I feel in a spring in my step when I got out of bed in the morning. Then we'll keep what you look across the agency sector what you say. What's the WHO do you think he's doing? Well you think is going to be sort of the next big stars of this well in in in all worlds. It's very interesting now to see that there is sort of a convergence of different types of organizations that are moving into our space so you will see management consultancies now picking up bits of business at previously public relations agencies used to use to get accountancy firms and now picking up the types of consultancy. Work that we would happily have tended for before. So there is a a a real convergence of of how what type of organizations are bidding for what and I think that the digital marketing space is designed side of that and the content generation and distribution side of that is the big huge growth area. And it won't surprise you. We're looking at that. As part of growth is there is sort of danger that everyone claims to do everything in sport does I. I can see I put you in a particular box. Jd Bones and we've had you know it's coming from a certain perspective and it was. It's public relations focused bidding but nor extensively when you talk agencies just tend to over claim everything to do you know we all still content yuppies. I'd like to agree with that. I mean we actually don't put our hands up and talk too much about bidding now. Although this excellent puck cost is has been focused on bidding. Because there's some great characters and great stories from from those days but where's the money come from but for us it it's corporate reputation it's about making sure all that large sporting organisations in very fast changing worlds putting their best foot forward so governance reviews gender equity today with transgender issues. Which is you know one of the big safeguarding of Of athletes the Ri- How to deal with the rise of athlete voice. These are issues that that challenge all our clients across the board so there is a there is a fancy consistent. If you liked drumbeat to work that we do for our clients and I agree with you. We try very hard not to say we're all things to people. We turned down opportunities to tender a lot of the time. Because we'll say that's not our core business is not what we do. Okay John Thank you very much for your time. 'cause always enjoyed that a great deal and thank you. Thanks Richard Great.

London Beijing consultant Mike John John Toby Olympics China Paris Charlie Russia Mike Lee Titans Knowlton Charleena Rugby US Athens IFC South Korea Jt
Visual Studio 2019 Productivity with Kendra Havens

.NET Rocks!

1:00:45 hr | 1 year ago

Visual Studio 2019 Productivity with Kendra Havens

"If you've had automating your ass peanut deployments on your to do list. Now's a great time to give octopus. Deploy a try the starter edition. Lets you install octopus on your own infrastructure infrastructure and deployed. Is Web servers azure websites in pretty much anything from no decree netease and they just made it free for small teams. Give your team a single place to release deploy and operate software with octopus. Deploy find out more AT OCTOPUS DOT COM Welcome back to dot net rocks. This is Carl Franklin. And this is Richard Campbell recuperating nicely in our in our appropriate spaces aces about this shows. publishable of gone done Dev intersection as well. We should be done traveling for the whole year. You know and I gotTa say Dev. Intersection was great this year. It was amazing and time shifting is awesome. I know it's going to be great. I know it's going to be great. Yeah well just just today I think yes. It was today October twenty eighth. That's when we're recording. This Mary Jo. Foley came out with an article about an announcement that Microsoft made aid. Let's roll the music and I'll tell you all about it. Didn't it's all right. Do Tell me all that you probably know about this. Because you're up on Microsoft Research and they have this project called project so priss our SOP opressed switches Azer sphere atmosphere. Yeah Gaylon Hunt leads that I had him on run as a year ago. That is so cool so I'll I'll give you my impression of what this is and then you can sort of fill in the gaps if you like but I think it's really really interesting. It's a solution that includes both a chip and services in the cloud and an St K.. Two program to provide a really ultra secure Iot Experience variance and hardware on up. Yeah from the hardware on up so when we talked to was it Josh Holmes Ages Ago ages ago about Iot and he said you know step number one is you WanNa burn your code into silicon. You don't want any kind of state that for your Iot Device to be in and where it can be interrupted and taken over. Don't just get an off the shelf kind of thing that you can program you want as much security and end as you possibly acidly cannon and I'm not sure exactly I mean I know this thing boots up in it phones home and registers itself in. Its gotta do that right. Yeah but You still programming it by burning Code into it right. I mean your code doesn't exist on the cloud and then it downloads. The code and runs you have to be able to install code onto 'cause there's always going to be updates right but it is encrypted all the way down the big thing that little grabby about Azure is your sphere just from a surface level is. This is a Microsoft built version of Lennox. That's true. What world are we living in? Yeah when they when Microsoft has their own own version of Lennox. I remember the old days when I interviewed. Miguel de Causa on dot net rocks and they wouldn't put it on their feed because they right because he was persona non grata. uh-huh sometimes depending on who you ask. Oh how times have changed the interview. I did with him for the book. Hit this moment when when we were talking it through. I'm like let we could destroy everybody at Microsoft suspicious of you because your limits guy working on dot net and everybody in the Olympics world is suspicious of you because you're working with dot net. Was this everybody hates Miguel well and he goes. Yeah but didn't let bother me. That sounds like I'm anyway. I thought that was really cool. And I'm uh I'm actually thinking of ordering up a developer Kit and trying one of these things because it's a little bit different than your average raspberry Pi. Yeah yeah this is thinking at a different level. You're totally right. Yeah and it's neat to see it's going to go because they've been working on it for a couple of years that's right. Yeah but I don't even map this all the way back to the whole trustworthy computing initiative. The bill talked about years ago where they tried to get Intel. Do Bunch the stuff at the low level like in the end the only way to really get it from the colonel. All the way up was largely bill themselves. Yeah true awesome dude very cool. All right. WHO's talking to us today? Mr Campbell grabbed comment offer. Show fourteen ninety three. When we did with one in Kendra haven never heard of her years ago when she was so much younger talking about docker? Tools dot net core so much younger My goodness and it was much great comments. Actually on this show and I wish Kendra replied to. I think all of them. But this one's from Natan Vivo. Who Said Hyper V.? Is the only reason I have not been able to run docker for windows until today. This twenty seventeen micro decided that hyper V.. would be the only hyper visor running. I cannot use is it. I need virtual box to work. which is a former sun product now oracle product occasion? I need to run other emulators. I get the hyper V.'s. is a low level hyper adviser and there are some advantages and so on but for the development machine. It's useless to me. I'd rather have a slower but coexisting with the rest of the environment or not running it all and says virtual box run a VM. AM is narrow. And type of hyper visor. Quite Fast Zoom Microsoft just wanted to shoot their own feet on this one Until Microsoft Sol's coexistence problem remains forever disabled on my machine and I'll just default to use limits containers which ironically run just fine window sudoku toolbox without hyper V. that's true story and again. Yeah that's well what's issue. This is the fact that you you can run virtual box on a windows machine but you have to disable hyper V.. To do it right. And you need diaper V to run docker for windows. You sort of had this schism. Although I don't know if it's been resolved now it's been a couple of years and I did do some reading here to see if it all works. Play was well with each other and I can't find the answer that perhaps Ms Havens knows perhaps looking at up. It's been a while since they've been involved at the docker tools wouldn't surprise me if it hasn't been result per se because this is getting down into bio AH stuff to about the way that That Hyper V.. Actually works and the and the and again it actually has more to do with secure supervisor's that you don't want them exportable Let's see definitely reading up on it now and unfortunately even when I was working the doctor is lurking a bit at a higher level to just like the visuals studio. docker integration tools. And how they were not all that was about a lower level on and with the windows guys making containers windows ten so Off The phone a friend on that one not sure. That's fine at Natan eaten so much. Thanks for your comment. A totally get where. You're coming from the different challenges here and economies Dako- buys on its way to you and if you'd like a copy music co by write a comment on the website at Don Iraq's dot com or via social media we publish ever show to facebook comment there and we read in the show. We'll send you a copy Musica and definitely follow us on twitter. I met Carl Arl Franklin. He is at rich Campbell. Send us a tweet Yada sorry for the long pause. Pause this done that's just sold Java talking to Goodi I'm trying to remember. How long have you been at the company when we interviewed you in two thousand seventeen it was maybe a year? Yeah I had been there here. Tiny sixteen. Yeah so as much as I'm being young. You're just new to the company. You're you've had a couple more years under your belt house working for the big the big blue. Oh my Gosh I'm actually so calmed about it To be honest I'm Richard. You just give a talk on history of Dot Net and dumping thinking now that dot net developers sweets. I got to see you guys in. Aw Man blackout me so punch. I'm so inspired like I can't wait to see where everything everything is in the tech industry in just five years ten years like the scene where we've come from and how like mobile phones changed the daily reliance of human for all for tools and how we interact and what impact. I'm just like so pumped I don't know be in the midst of it. I'm it's a good time to be alive. No question and you working such a cool place. I've had the good fortune on Guthrie for many many years and I said to him privately not long ago and I won't go to the details about that you know. The cloud is really creating a new utility for civilization. Like you're advancing civilization. You're leading it. And and what's that like he goes. Yeah I guess so unassuming you I guess do shaping civilization Colas Asian. That's supposed to like stick your head up above the clouds guys and get like that long term perspective of ruins while and Richard Song definitely. That was so cool. It was a great talk thanks man. It's been amazing ride. And it's fun to tell that tale and just say like we've we've come so far and I want to quote it to you. Know between these two shows you did Kendra because it's been a lot emotion like that's another version of studio and better tooling. The cloud is just becoming a default way to build software. Yeah and like the rates were recently. That's blowing my mind. Is the machine learning inside the visual studio with Antarctica. Go never thought we'd be here and like I like we've been when I started. I think that we would have enroll model offering like smarter completion that we could retrain every month on like housands of open source for those that are constantly being updated by you know I think our contributors are lake over ten million people or something who owe it hold on. That's not number is to make a lot of tonight and Dada. I'm trying to remember what number we might have been counting. Vs Code Like extensions and contributors everyone extending Nikos Narrow. But it's just like I didn't do this in that version because I only had one hour and you're always sort of triaging what stays out but it was type script when they put tight script out on get hub and the community just embraced it and all those libraries all those extensions for type script to be able to support All the all the different Javascript libraries and that was a real shock to Microsoft. Wow very solid like like it can be like me yeah. I don't think anyone knew how it was like catching empire you know when you when you're on the right side of things it's amazing how they rally around each other. Yeah I mean Scott Goldberg Richness slide. I of like sixteen million developers using visual studio tools and I was like Whoa a traditional studio. He's counting their numbers that we turn around for visual studio and like five or six million. Well I gotta I gotTa tell you a visual studio two thousand nineteen story. I have always used because I have you know the MSN subscription comes to the being an MVP and You know of always used an installed the latest visual Studio Enterprise version right. So I'm doing this Online Workshop About Building Blazer applications and I say US professional or enterprise In some guy says hey. Can I use the community edition and I'm like well I don't know so. I downloaded the free version of Visual Studio Twentieth. Nineteen community edition and proceeded to build out my entire application without any problems whatsoever. And I didn't want any of the tooling I didn't miss any features like everything that I wanted was right there. It's I guess. A lot of the enterprise features have to do with Testing and things like that that we weren't even hitting on in this So it turns out that you can actually do a lot more than you think of with the free version of visual studio two thousand nineteen. I think that's just amazing. So thank the team for that. I will yeah and as missile Brazil excited to talk about. This actually wasn't sure of the distinction feature wise between community. Unprofessional got questioned on twitter. The that's how I learn things. Thanks now it's just three. The conduit of twitter customers in the asking my bosses on that each year difference is negligible between community and professional the real differences just licensing students and everything are actually getting you soul in Hobbyist and everything are getting used to all all the tools that they would using professionally as soon as they win that job in get renting and everything let me just go over some of the features like the the data sequel server object explorer there right Being able to build a full blazer application with API controllers and identity and signal are hubs. It's all there you know. There's nothing in the editor that into that. I missed I was just like blown away. It's Great Code Fixes and reflects during falsely Shin Analysis Roslyn compiler you didn't tell us that's you can even get Intel code in Visual Studio Code very exciting so you don't WanNa really talk about so much what's new. What would he when you talk about productivity and I saw you in Poland to mobbed after your session on protein? Take so like to the point where I think you you had to drag them. Outside of the next session could start and we're still surrounded for quite some time. What are you showing people? They WanNa talk at such great length of productivity. And they just want to. I know a lot of them. Oh Gosh I just love the questions. I get You always kind of are able to figure out the power users at the end of my talks walks in a really into lake one feature that they're still missing on a lot of them are like interested in how many re sharper features united in the different stylist between the two at like what our plans are like. Are you trying to add every single sharper ager. That exists and I'm always like no. We're actually just trying to add what people people ask or what they expect to be in the building tools because the bar has definitely been raised by like a like a ton of accenture like code rush Unlike in in Cranston restarted for and a bunch of these like product of detained tools people just expect certain things to become building after a while l.. Lake it it. It doesn't feel good to feel like you can't even get started In the tools and not let the ID were trying to build on Lake and as an as well when we add. Add those kinds of stuff like all of the added over one hundred code fixes factories in the past year when we lived in the built in tools also again available in community so everyone can Musa. You don't have to pay for an extra extension or at other or just like us. The Thirty Day free trial and try to work around the progression it competitive pressure making better and better tools for people. So I kinda love it I just think that the Roslyn analyzers is a different level. Ah Thinking I don't know how many people really get into them Ya Where's actually trained to courage? It more I'd actually who's I think. Thank thinking like half percents Total users I'm like actually hit argued. Hobo oh I can't remember what numbers is looking at but honestly that's awesome that we have done any contribute half a percent of users it's which is still represents thousands yes yes precisely so and that makes a huge difference So our repository the Roslan on compiler at the engine hours Oliver could exonerate factoring in all of our dot net to lean those light bulbs and screwdrivers and and looking in red struggles. ALL THAT AD appearance we've all implemented in open source or even know all of those appearance of visual studio. You can actually read the Old Kodak Flex into the platform that shows those old the logic of what triggers and how the compiler works I was GONNA say bet. The code that uses Roslyn is so much simpler other than all the good that was in there before to make that Magic Kelly. I mean I mean it's managed. Now what's the comparison. A senior partner. We going back. Yeah Yeah I haven't I haven't used rosaline in a production project but but I got imagine that it's it's just like so much easier. You certainly plus. Yeah and I I mean from the get-go when we wrote the compiler MANAGE MOISTURE RJ. Lake what seven years ago. Now we built it with the idea that all all these. API should be open source and extensible by the community so we didn't want us to be able to write compiler in diagnostics which are the green and red squirrels. We wanted everyone to be able to because we know we were just a platform to be used to be extended everything and that was the framework that we had in mind narrating as eighth is so I wanNA preach as much as I can. That people could go enright right earned Worked with their frameworks and libraries to give a pupil who then consume those libraries help when they're Accident is a really good example. has awesome analyzers so I've seen as one of the major dot. Net test frameworks in someone in their community wrote a bunch of analyzers Zunes help people right Tests better and that's what we went. Everyone who is you know a dot net class library author to do and we're actually in the process of chained to Vangelis even enternally so a lot of cour- have all the annualize that it could have to help. People use best coding practices and things Maria slowly integrating not not to be fun to see light up Dow. Bet so I mean there isn't one way to write. Code is just got to be more preferential. A given organization has certain standards of the way they want to write code and so they can use analyzers to shape that. Yeah and so much of it in a lot of people know you're going to run into an era at runtime and giving you feedback before you even have to build. You don't have to wait. chillier builds breaks and then figure out the error and everything and try to figure out the Thanks all of the code sexes. Right there in the editor giving you a squiggle that to me seems super-powerful is even if it doesn't break anything when you talk about coding standards. You don't really find out that you violated cody centers to your in their review obstensibly with working code already in there. You're told hey this code that works yeah. It's just not compliant with standards. You GotTa fix it. Yes exactly. We're going for two now. It's a squiggle right at the beginning. Should I talk about what's new in that whole snowy I'd love to okay cool So analyze answer new company that does reading in squabbles. That appear in your editor kind of if you those. There's light bulbs in screwdrivers. Help you code at those little margin icons that fear so new analyzers will we've had editor configure to lane for a few years I'll talk a little bit. About what editor biggest break introduce nail in the editor editor convey begins a single file at lives at the root of your repository at helps document. style you want certain teams. I'll attend to follow so all of your diagnostics can have certain rules that up so whether or not using bar or explicit when the type is appearance that can be you in bump up to like the just a suggestion where it would appear as three dot so it's super notice full on a people miss suggestions but it's also not in your face. Are you good bump that got to be a warnings. It doesn't actually get green slagelse in say like. Hey that's a lot more of an opinionated code style that you can enforce in your whole team. We'll get on enforcement because ah I'll Is read by Visual Studio. Tuli managed with your whole source controls. Any anybody who pulls from your story. We'll have it in visual studio and we actually can change the diagnostics. Based on what we read not file and show you different Yeah here because they're going to think when it comes to putting together a standard sounded like this is. How do I express it? How do I provide advice beyond the squiggle like little bits and pieces here to make good? Oh Yeah and Ooh I should mention that editor can fade is a student that existed in industry before we adopted or dot net could roll so is already been used by other languages For Code Styles instead of creating our own injured burn like code style documentation on enforcement. We adopted pre existing one which I'm particularly proud of I'm just saying okay not create a new competing dock So new in editor conveyed Is the ability to actually right. Click invite the code editor and adjust. Adjust the diagnostics that you're seeing from your editor so normally you'd have to go into tools actions to adjust that or you'd have to edit editor convict I'll manually which can be tricky. It is like a new code style. Worn either everything. You gotTa Rate Equals True Colon suggestion Aston or something like that to figure out each rule and you got workload and all that and I was kind of annoying you had to go into a reference you had to look what code our allies or like I did in your airline or something like that. Now you can literally just open the code fix. You're getting and there's a new in the light bulger over screwdriver. Little glimpse at appears UCS and not and then at the bottom. You have a line that says figure asserting your diagnostics. And when you expand that flout menu it gives you options. You can change the severity there or you can even change Enj- sometimes what the rule is you can set it to chew her. alls I depending on the Kotaro. There was for example For curly braces on new shortfalls. Right through the declaration or something like that. So you can do that right in your editor right in the context that you're using and you don't have to switch and then when you do that it'll actually update your editor. Could face. You never need to open your editor campaign but it's still keeping track of the codes goals that you're setting. Can I give you one of my favorite features in Visual Studio Twenty Nineteen Gene. Please do all right. Click on the project file. It comes up in the editor copy and paste new get references. Oh my Mike. That's all you need. Hi I'm serious like that's just so super cool because it's like I mean you you you have a project mess it up. You WanNa start over another one. Whatever you know for whatever reason need to force it and I'll yeah go? Get all these new get packages again and go searching. Click Click. Click to your brains out and now just like there it is. I mean I could do that at the command line. You know. I could open notepad but it's very convenient to have it right there. Yeah yeah before I got a bunch of comments about that but is only. SDK style projects the new garage type. yeah all spread. Treason was super super super verbose. Yeah okay well. I mean everything I've been doing lately is in poor so yeah all right choices. I've been a drain. The the older versions of Studio Head Code Analysis is that gone away in twenty nineteen Is it all just analyzers now. So we can still enable started code in office and actually that kind of brings me to my next the topic so I think the code analysis referring to was maybe like solution white coat analysis that you kick off manually once and it gives you feedback at one time instead of editing outlined. Yeah so we still have the ability to turn on her turnoff. Falsely should analysis. But that will run live so it might need up your battery as codeine inside this just like different. It's more processes background. You can still kick it off at one time But something new we do have in the ability to turn off live analysis courneuve package which is pretty cool so we added a new product properties. Page so all you need to do is right. Click could've properties in that. We're not paint opens up. You go down to Code Analysis and that will actually list a recommended you get averages in the packages of specifically typically analyzers that you have in your project. So all of these third party in lasers that people can create memories they can go in right Roslyn inlays certainly acts. You Know Clinton just like the accident on rotter Ambien salt in there Ethics analysis in lasers are a good example. That's one network recommend the more and more people use It's a really robust feedback on your code. A bit to include in Bolton tools but it's pretty good so that'll be listed there and you can actually turn on Urge turn on live code analysis that turn on but still have a Ryan during a bill seeking kind of configure. It so run at once or not cops been around a long time you just you just converted into a set of analyzers right aid rather than a separate pat and you put in the studio. Yes exactly is it more extensible now like you can do so much more with it rather than it's just a a uniform thing yeah. I think we're always contributing to it and what's cool about. It is the current implementation so we rented a As roles in rosine related live analysis. And it's all open source of you. Think something more should be included. You figure out and follow up on discussions actions and talk with Considered a ruled it out. Because you can't get into the weeds of these discussions but some of it is preference code silence so we tried to create options. Kind of please. Everyone but Yeah we recommended more and more and the difference here is that you can have four only during a bill. So it's a new way to kind of talk on her. And why would you only want during the bill versus just to always showing you wiggles. So Lebanon Asus I kind of mentioned can be really verbose house. We actually got a lot of feedback that not everyone wanted. The slides analysis happening all the in in the background. Because it really fills. Does your air list. If you're not like ready to sit down and actually go through it and follow lake. The most ideal practices because again affect stop inlays good example because is not following him and might not necessarily break your code but it's not good guidance so it's not like we we didn't shut let them with built in tools. You don't need need them on all the time for your coach just work right so being able to then be like okay. I'M GONNA go ex like now. I'm going going to turn on this package or go ahead and address these issues as they come in sort of being able to segment at work was a lot of people birds so we need this option available. That makes sense. Yeah okay extend out for just one moment ullman for this very important message. Hey Carl here. People are going nuts for my online blazer workshop the next one will be Monday December sixteenth from ten. Am I'm to six PM Eastern. And if you can't make it and just want to download the materials in the video from the November workshop. You can do that too in one day. We'll write a complete service side Blazer. PWA APP WITH E F for Api controllers components signal are as peanut core identity Java script interrupt interrupt and User Management All using Visual Studio Twenty nineteen community edition and Dot net core three to sign up or download. The materials just go blazer DOT APP v Necks Dot Com. That's Blazer B. L. A. Z. O. R. DOT APP v Next A. P. P. V. N. E. X. T. DOT dot com. Hey Crown Richard here. We like to tell you all about the upcoming conferences. N. D. C. is hosting all around the world and DC. London will be January. Twenty twenty seven th through the thirty first go to NBC Dash London Dot Com to register. WE'RE GONNA be recording some episodes there. Come see us in the FISHBOWL IN DC security purity. Oslo is January twenty second through the twenty fourth early bird discount friendy security. Oslo is December. Second go to. NBC Dash Security Dot Com to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at NBC conferences Dot Com. And we're back is Richard Cable. That's call Franklin we're talking to Kendra Havens I. I don't think we introduce you properly. No we didn't. I just realized this during the break is that I never was able to introduce her properly. So let me do that everybody Buddy Kendra havens is a program manager at Microsoft Dot Net and visual studio team. Her focus is dot net tooling in the testing experience. In visual studio you might recognize her from videos on dot net core. Vs Code and Docker. In addition to an unruly enthusiasm for technology Kendra loves reading and camping. So now that you know we're talking to get back to the conversation about productivity in Visual Studio Twenty nine thousand nine. I didn't know that visual studio 2017 was all that unproductive hey okay Like fifteen Gotti a busy twenty seventeen we added. Actually it was. It was a really crazy demo. Time Nabet like twenty eight in one release and I was like. Why did these all the time? But it was good. It was a lot of content suddenly fit into a demo. Like right. Yeah and it's only gone on from there where I would definitely. It's actually pointing out. How fast reading things is worth doing? A lot of them are community. Contributions nations which I should call The people who are really invested in making dot net grades community It's and it's a lot of little things guy. Oh Gosh one of the things. Just Florida me was rejects completion. Okay and I don't know how you know is correct. It just looks like swearing. It's still like saying you're done is slicker but beautiful pretty easy but communities like community members you you did work crew Microsoft at one point. But he's he's on another company per cent and he'll come back but He was distracted near Fort so he uh-huh implemented completion and it was sort of a basic right now he needs to do is If you're in any kind of registering that's recognized by the regius. Constructor or by the comment at is like language equals rejects. Right above the line. And you start typing incited that string and you hit control roll. Space Open. Intel Ernie Intelligence completion lists. It will give you a list of all of these regiments completions in there. It just basic like dictionary definition. You don't have to actually go to a reference for all this stuff or look it up on stock overflow other window reality I know any right any Open source APP that starts with the story so I was trapped in an airport. It sorta reminds me or in any I and era hanes experience In Richard was there and I was there in Sweden I think we're Malmo's at the the bishops arms after after or a Dev and we we noticed that Julie Lerman Oranje had skulks off to a corner. We wondered what they were doing but it was very visual hand waving and there was screaming and shouting and we found out that he was writing the an entity framework provider for Raven DB round. Yeah also doing doing like an analyzer at the same time or it was an analyzer. So much it was like a profiler Louis statements that it was writing right real time and I swear they wrote it that that night is what you do and you're just you know. He was very enthusiastic or in his loud. These just is loud. He gets into it. He's yeah he's loud. There's no other way to describe it but I thought it was cool. Cool you know here. We are all having beers and scotches and whatever and enjoying ourselves in you know. These two are often the corner like making history. It's very cool unlike. Gosh isn't that great and it's just like yeah. I like that story. It's just a good example of one of those nice things to have. It's just a nice nicely to improve something you use everyday and it's It so much working on the coalition getting. I guess you guys know me you know I get really really excited about like small things. It's the best parentheses. Straight in rejects is worth away the price commission. Yes we played braced not gene in parentheses. Jane Square brackets and all that grease and so is the highlight ended. You you dateline. It actually gives an Air Hooley fully cabbie nice to have a red checks to English converter. That'd be Kinda cool like what is this doing actually okay. We'll conspire to trap Cyrus in an airport. Your alarm clock about an English to rejects converter. Now that we've been fun dog that's even better now. That tool falls under intelligence is intelligence just a blanket for Rosslyn analyzers you know. Intelligence is used in all kinds of blades. I almost feel like it's an organic beautiful term that I shouldn't try to put labels on the Tele Ella Sense. Is that where we're going. It's more of a fee. Lean anyway the words processing uh-huh okay okay. But looking at like our code in the internal engineering team intelligence is very specifically completion in syntax highlighting. And that's about like hovering over it. The little COPPA that appears we call quicken. Oh the light bulbs and cycles and everything are factoring analyzers and that's how we really clearly divide our teens and WHO's working on. What so intelligence is actually not really specific thing as we were on it but it has been used so many places? I don't think it's just like a great word. It's a kind of umbrella smart things hopping and your editor for us. I'm fine it's okay. We used to. We used to call clip intelligence. No we never kid. Wasn't that in telling but just sort of stadio comes up at least every month. It's like the joke is just. It's great oh where were we. Anyway in a sense was a marketing term that's sort of narrowed into a set of features yeah completion highlighting syntax. Great while you're typing. How can I help you? Without annoying you write really tricky balance. Yup Oh yeah Oh. It's amazing what I has been added. Recently it's amazing. How many milliseconds of difference we really have to think about recently? We added completion imported tights. which is you do? Dot Com used only see types. That were already already like type suggestions that were only from the using statements. You had at the top of the file. Now when visuals you twenty nineteen eighteen you can see when you type dot you can see any kind of type completions in your in your list or any dependencies on your project a massive acid bliss and if you accept when the completions that is or statement. You don't have it or this. I got using eight at the top of your file so generating that much larger West could cause mills. I can't difference and we had to about two hundred milliseconds and if it was worth it and we put a lot of people. And it's totally worth it Gallagher turn it off so we definitely added that option I pulled the MVP audience. Actually I had a talk about two hundred people and About thirty percent of them. I guess tweeted never wanted this because they they actually think they're they're using ends up at the top of the file in really need to only see a filtered list in their completion but that's just how their their brains work in how they focus on a subset of The others want dot Nougat right. Yes yes actually. Don't bore which definitely something we I'm trying to say for experimenting with a Yes asleep we have thought about. We're working on it really doing dot new get dot and then. I didn't say where they go but we do go over to the top. What is that? The top thousand new get packages pitches the most common ones. If you type type from them you should be able to get a suggestion to install this new episode. So if I type Layton Jason Convert which is the type of new software Jason. And I don't even have the dependency and my project much less the using statement I will be able to get approach to install at. That's pretty cool and that's not again. This is a refractory not intelligence. Listen if we're going by that strict definition but but anyway it's all making code smarter. It's all good right. Yeah just having those things actually fingertips so you're not having to jump out of your flow. Yes along doesn't tend. I need to go yeah. I don't think we have a great way right now. I think we'll go and install like the latest sable a new package so you have to give manager but if you had the dependency on different projects that it was a different version or something it. We're not great at during all of that out or using might win a lake of do your tires leashes use the same version of something it's not perfect but that's okay we're GONNA go every little bit helps. Yeah other productivity features. Oh my gosh. So many daily them all into sixty sixty minute talk. I do have a solution on get hug where people can try out. All of the features include fixes offerings. That we've added in the past and like Irish six releases talked to fifty nine eight on and it's like a little project and I will say is like a new coach factory and handle the Dunkel there People can go Rogge that solution at AK in mass us slash features twenty eighteen. We conclude that link description people in a run through because we have a hundred Like coal stocks like converting for each link during neural and have an if statement in there it can convert the into a where clause. It's pretty so you just every time new ones come up you add them into this. Projects people can experiment with them. Yeah it's a great idea. If if I'm on top of it I like it so far. It's a bunch of people around the company when they have booze duty or they're like Oh crap meeting customers. Why do we done though? I can point them out at refund. 'cause it's not it doesn't have any special setup Connected Certain Secrets Count and over ninety is needs to be ready. United on Might it's just like no it's just the colored in your editor end. It'll just GONNA work Mark Nieto Update at an open the project and you'll get a bunch of record is to go through all the comments have How you trigger it describes you know where to put your cursor for some things can only be triggered like if your cursor is in that or each keyword word places interesting and you have all these all the shortcut keys? I mean that's always the thing. Is People Learning the different keys. Combinations that are available. Only Gosh. I'm so excited about go to base old home so you can go to the base tight glinting on-ice that was such a huge feature requests in regard it ended in the right click menu which is Kinda hard to get into the right click menus so overloaded. Yeah it's such a huge menu. We're trying to keep it down to only what people need and uh-huh us a ton that's GonNa be a star child so we'll try and yet you haven't run out of keyboard keys yet which is great because they've come a time where you're gonNa be you're GonNa have word Perfect Syndrome shift control right all P you know. Is it crazy if I don't believe or even close I don't think so 'cause so cool I'm I'm just thinking out here It's so cool and not it depends on the tool window that you have in focus it combined different keyboard shortcuts to different things. Yeah which is really nice. So like even the F. King The keys will change if you're like inside of the final references limbo or like the team explorer which is really. I'm actually trying to get people to better documented because I can do a lot of things really fast and the team experience you know all the keyboard keyboard shortcuts. That lead fully documented. And I'm like how do we think these and I like that for just our team is no no we have the docking that these don't keep them to yourself. We will we all want awesome. Yeah you can get stashed in pots and command and merge and then It's really cool. Starting new branch when kind of tip that I discovered just months ago and I kind of changed. My life is out of the for all. The keyboard mapping missio. Is We have a place in tools auctions or you can go to control Q.. And just I think keyboard in office the Environment Keyboard of your tools options. And there's a little pain and you could you're out and it lists all the commands in visual studio that he can possibly bindi keyboard shortcuts. The searches pretty dumb. Don't include spaces or anything and there's no so you got to kind of knew the commanders just got to be trick magically. Yeah there is there are ways out. What commands your triggering then everything but So it's it's it's a bit easier to you. Can put your cursor in one of the boxes in the lower part of the pain and when you type A keyboard shortcut it'll list. What commanded straight green or taken by command? It'll be blank and then you'll know that keyboard shortcut actually isn't anything that's open to us right so you can make your own mind these if you want. I'm just always nervous when people do custom by things like that. Yeah because you're not sure like in an installing extension could break in. It's hard to Lake David as a violent everything. Yeah it is a good way to figure out what's already found sure what's earlier you're based tool set After you install studio what do you put an immediately before you can start working. Actually have anything really of a couple of things though. Christians hasn't awesome editor big tour extension. I've been trying to get it into the Ulsan product or months maybe a year over. But it'll actually add completion for editor in fake so he went through a role site in updates at end. I said you just I kind of mentioned earlier that Since kind of tricky. But if you type of colon it can auto complete lake the Security Marigny levels that you have options or or What the options are good style role to also or like sometimes could start rules? Certain on names that you can bring not so earth setting like it's one is called for her name spaces in the eighteen is Per using inside or outside names days and exciting is praising inside or raisings outside so that will like auto complete with his extension. So you don't need to look at the rule and figure out how to all the settings are possible in or which is sweet awesome. I really do like editor guidelines. That's a really old one trying to get into the editor but I really concerned about like making everything breathing languages and all that fun and under guidelines put a small darted line. Whatever calling Senate twos like the eightieth column or something? I if you're in an ARETHA has released strong wrapping guidelines We're I want the built in tools. we didn't actually have the customer votes to having a top priority. Or anything I want it to be. It's just like one of my vendettas So please go and vote a lot on Iran or on developer community where we have editor guidelines. Nice entered lines to build tools. Does He. So you need that feedback right like you guys are queuing everything off. What customers actually say? Yes so yeah. And they I will definitely ignore me. Ages realize it's Kendra personal vendetta team won out anything So we I I will always ask me because for evidence so like bringing scenarios that are really lake understandable and island and I think a lot of people are running into Sometimes they can justify doing things to urge telemetry but we have a pretty limited Understanding of a lot of our telemetry women tree. And what if it's interpreted to and even like talking with internal people who are getting a lot of telemetry. It's slate unclear. It's not as strong case and also have a bit of bias. I'll India Microsoft. Does that over a bunch of Weirdos and sure no one outside right of yeah. Yeah and it's again. It's like a little bit of is so it's so much more. Powerful in concrete hearing someone from like a completely different alber scenario mini multiple people from completely different developer scenarios. All saying That gives us the way more of a chance to know that this is the right choice. What's the right way to send you stuff? Is it okay to just put it up his issues and get hub or you prefer user voice like what what what are you guys. Look at the most. Yeah so get hub is awesome and for my team But get hoops bit tricky. Because you we we do need to triage it to the correct REBA. We're not we're not gonNA take place so that team contract might anything derived the bet a good way to do that. A good entry point is actually developer. Over community says developer community DOT Mitchell's new dot com and believe that developer community visuals dating dot Com. And if you file it on their provide feedback there's also a tool in visual studio. That will also posed research evolving community. So you can see the activity and you can upload items there and we will always drage it to the correct get head repository from there. You're such a good entry point. If you don't really know where feedback alongs if you do it directly on get hub We still have like. There's a bunch of different different repositories Roslyn to lean actually. Does the porn figure out. This is actually on. Thanks for just over two. Do things internally is that artists closed source on certainly on. We can help you do that. yeah and voting is so important like even if you don't have to file a new issue or anything if you was like look it up and zero exists and take a minute to upload it and and figure out Oh yeah this is impacting in voting musings. Along the Way Lake Doc. Just fourteen votes is actually a lot is that represents a ton of customer so you actually do have a really strong impacts reports the folks are things. Go ahead and look at but right now go to our repo. This is always on. I'm pretty sure it's source linked to bugging. I can sort I most reactions suns up. It's currently expression trees support for two bowls in one hundred four votes thought of the millions in two hundred four one votes right. Yeah so you know just be real that your vote vote matters like even in something as big as that one vote is still one percent. Yeah Yeah and if we post something like Oh yeah. The one who's thinking was expected behavior for good enough in his shin references and that is has forty two votes like. That's and that's how things were. We're we're blocks on various independence. Just aren't very up but so we go down the list and everything then try to figure out what we in. So you're you're not being lost in the noise at all not at all. I mean we definitely we have leader boards and look at the top issues on vertical. TAT's which we just added to visual studio people were super excited about radical tabs that had seven hundred on dot com and we relate. Yeah we need to immediately do this. This is like the mostly back we have we get collided. It and you get to watch them progress to right. It's under investigation. It's you know a added for the next builds like all of that sort of thing. Well definitely give up updates. As we really big items we'll get on our roadmap to we're required update that so what's next for you Kendra. What's in your inbox? Owen are where they need to do what you're working on so we. They agreed announced visuals. Do online build this new product. We're not talking about. We used nice to have something called visuals online. That was repairing a grander Taizhou. This is different those visual studio. Shell being in connected to a server that old that actual computation concert doesn't adequately so it's sort of like it's sort of like having a vm. That's offering during visual studio but Like everything with remote talks could be released slow because we're streaming pixel by Pixel Visual Visual Studio Online. That's where like just doing the live share connection and just like streaming text diviners that you need right jared. It's really really We're GONNA be talking about the night which is an one week. Gosh we need to prepare. The show will publish Africa anyway. So I'm sure it was a great conversation Asian. Oh yes I mean I mean that was so much that was amazing. We were blown away. So is this something that exists now that we can play with or is it going to be forthcoming. It'll be forthcoming. Turn her remember. What did they only? I think won't go into previews for now. I driving people are listening to this. Okay Yeah thank you. I think if they sign up now I wish I had like links says I do but I'm between now and then if we find find it will add it to the list and Sir there will be blog post. I am planning on doing a show with Nick Molnar on it in the next few weeks. Well there you go about the demo yeah awesome. What can't you thanks for? Geeking out with us and it was so much fun hanging out with you in Poland and You know your your talk was great and so is this conversation thank you. Thanks so much for having me I always love. It wasn't talks awesome and we'll see you next time on dot net rocks take birth dot. Net rocks is brought to you by Franklin's net and produced by PLOP studios a full service audio video and post production facility located physically in new London Connecticut and of course in the cloud online at P. W. O. P. Dot com visit our website at dot N.. T. R. O. C. K. S. dot com for RSS succeeds downloads. Mobile APPs comments and access to the full archives going back to show number one reported in September. Two thousand to make make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business now. Go write some code. CNN Time I'd say.

editor Microsoft Dot Net Buddy Kendra havens Carl Arl Franklin Intel Richard Campbell twitter Microsoft Research developer Visual Studio Twentieth Poland Miguel de Causa London MVP Crown Richard Gaylon Hunt Mary Jo
63: Stage 21 | Verona  Verona | Giro dItalia 2019

The Cycling Podcast

1:06:46 hr | 2 years ago

63: Stage 21 | Verona Verona | Giro dItalia 2019

"Uh-huh. On your phone. Gee, what you get. Who? Teach us sick the wall. I know. What's her name? Where are you? Where are you from? Live saloon up. So have you come here to support? Because I. Kind of fast is Tampa. Browns. Are you cycling funds? It's amazing. Party to important assistant. How many people in Ecuador following the? Hyping while artist. On this comes in you. Mike. On you know that. The people here who are really Ecuador today live in tonight. You think they come from all over Europe? Because the. Care for. You're gonna have a big celebration tonight. The. Doing. Classic. Little pin is he makes his my round the times its high. Costal winning. Has. Inclusion at this time. One. Here today. Second book at did duty Talia in association with graph the fastest clothing in the world tour, the home of sampling with character. Right. And what we'd raffling turned nineteen as they partnered with e f location, I and Kenyans ram today, we are in bed owner. Say. She says she say, say. That she. We'd always Donyell we're in Verona city of love. Yes, we go. I think it was head us Verona funds behind this has Vernon when the two major closer vet. Oh, not the other one being Richard. Cable. Well, the we were played in there with some, some noise som atmosphere from the arena, the softer Lynn, where I sat all after noon. I sleep baking in the heat Julian Assange, surrounded by Quitorio, Innis me, see. Could say marooned in no no to this wasn't mentioned the were hundreds, if not thousands of Ecuadorians in their INA? I sat with them, and it was a tremendous heartless fear, and it was very emotional. There were people around me shaking crying, you know, the build up to carapace rich akara pas, leaving star star to his time trial was really charged. And then when he finished. An amazing atmosphere. And I think for the first time in was being a quite a kind of lukewarm Jiro hasn't really caught fire. I fell real sense of men for counterparts to become the first equa Ecuadorian to win a grand tour. And just what his kind of standing status will not be in Ecuador. Well, I'm rich it's a country, which has a population of seventeen million people. But as far as sport is concerned, isn't half the same glorious history of some of the South American nation's and highpoint was probably Andrey undersco underscores victory in the French Open in singles title way when singles title in nineteen ninety. They go to the courts fine of the football World Cup and they lost to England. Didn't they we signed the lost World Cup of the previous one and, but that was seen as a pretty high water Mark, in terms of Ecuadorian sporting history. And we heard earlier in well, our coverage there isn't although there are few Ecuadorian cyclist. I three in this geo. There isn't really a, a scene inadequate or writers have to go to Columbia to kind of develop. One thing I've been till this, this huge rivalry between Ecuador and Colombia. And yet it was very notable today. The Colombian writers McGowan Lopez in particular when he appeared in the arena, and he got huge cheer from the Ecuadorian. So that was that was interesting. And it was a I mean worth praising the Geeta organizers for tremendous commercial piece finish to the race here. Yeah. Not the first time the racist finished in the arena in Verona last time is in two thousand and ten. And it works ESP today, there was not an awful lot to play for car pass the overall classification, pretty much sewn up. Most of the places will pretty much sewn up apart from Mikhailova, who is in third overnight, but was in third. Yes, he wasn't. But it was almost a formality that he was gonna lose out to pre most rogue Lynch buys wall happened. So it could have been an anti-climax put for those who were here. I didn't feel like one of tool did it well in this episode our final episode from the GPO, although we will have a press commerce so later in the week, and we are going to hear from a low of writers with their best and worst moments from the Jerusalem. Some really. I mean, let's say it for war buses all I can say is fantastic story from Larry war. Bus from this Chiro stage today was won by Chad Haga the American writer on team son whip night if he'd listened to our two zero on frady, which was called Nossa. Ars focused on the teams have won a stage, the jeeter on his sports rights mart reef that say that Haga was really targeting this, this time trial. And that he was very optimistic. He did say that he thought five was, you know, the target. So I think his performance exceeded expectations poodle. Victocrat nour's. He was in the seat went Haga came in and four seconds sore. Having lost the previous time charts rogue let's variance, very narrowly and after terabyte change. He's no, the world. Our record old has not come away from this year with a sage in it should be disappointed about his lots of teammate. Thomas again with a very strong right into third. So second third for lots of pseudo. Donna Caruso, was fourth. It was interesting. Ho the G C guys on standing time, offering Vincenza Nibley which has continued a trend that this year. He's time trout very, very well, but he actually beat Primoz Lynch and the winner of the previous time trials. Incredible performance. And, you know, in the end, the finalists Ritchie counter wins zero by woman. It five from Vincenza Niebler Nibley has caused to route that day. Healers, actually, in one when he premiums, let's basically MARTINI other as Richard counterparts sailed up the road. And that was as we discussed last night was the day that kind of pies, one, the Jiro as you said, Llandough slipped down a place to lose his spot on the podium and probably healthy bonus as we were talking about yesterday. We're way. Yeah, it's interesting. We were talking to a team manager yesterday who should probably remain nameless for reasons of diplomacy. About bonuses in contracts is standard practice for a rider to have a binary podium place. And, you know, you can cause it can cause some difficulties internally, obviously, when a ride is destined to or decided to move teams the following year as well. We think that's the case in London. We think his barring Morita, we think it's the case cut up houses, well, and but, but Landa played the perfect teammate here. At least didn't he rich? He did. Yeah. And the ends up fourth which she'll not be very happy with pretty much raw glitch on the other hand, the think we'll be happy with third, especially when you look at this time, trial and see as evidence that his, his form was declining. He was on the wane. So to hold on third. I think in the circumstances is a good result for him his first same on grunts, you're put him so me. For me ball, KOMO Mullah v. Very, very strong. Right from him. Ruffo mica moved up a place at six meal. Anghel Lopez supermom, moved down and place to seventh. Simon Yates finished eighth some mischievous suggestions, that the allies, Val, the writer of this grant has been Simon Yates, Farren panel civic cough, ninth, very good performance from the twenty one year old illness accurate, tenth, Hugh, Carthy, eleventh, Joe Dombroski, twelve coaching seeing I'm going, go do the whole g C, but I'm gonna stop there actually, but some, some really notable performance. I mean, any Dunbar twenty-second also these performance and look how within twenty fifth young writers, who writing their first grand tour and worth mentioned, the king of the mountains was, of course, Gilio Gucci Kuni of trek, Sehgal, freighter points. Jersey Pasco Ackerman youth. Jersey under twenty five jersey Migo Anghel Lopez and the top team Daniel, the one that everybody wants we'll know who won the fat player would sparring Morita wasn't it? He would we should know this, but I don't know is it the team gets a few so yellow cards every day. There's a fair play convocation and usually there are seventeen teams equal on a few teams have been Dr few points for some misdemeanour roller. But I must admit maybe this is a Columbus zero next year. But team classification was won by movie star clothing in the world, the home of settling, with character. Right. And what we turn to nineteen as they partnered with e f occasion, I and canyons ram, there's a lovely pitch. Mustache of Tom Simpson in the Persian jersey and I told her story, which I'm not sure it's true that during that time when state new when color TV started and. Apparently that the, the jersey that stood out the most on collective he hits. The Black Watch jersey of, of Persia wishes, seems absolutely ridiculous in the color TV everybody thought while we can do fantastic jerseys. It was stunned out more, but actually this implicitly Black Watch to now. Better on club kit. I think there's something about belonging by wearing the same jersey, but there's also something about not looking to match matchy think. Quite a few of us have joined clubs and, and started all-weather the same stuff, but you get a bit bored of all looking identikit. So increasingly we're seeing people, adding that Letterman's in or in our club. We've got a variety of different jersey worse. When you see a group of fifty people, then all that have like an army they look like a group of people, but they also have make sense together. And that's I think we can do this. The with the pull Smith product would just done because it's different colors in this way, putting it together till help our club to have a different way of dressing as Paul the home. Thank you very much to Rafeh for being our headline sponsor, not was the final installment in the conversation between Sir Paul Smith, designer and Simon Mottram the finder of Rafeh discussing cycling kit in general, in particular, the, the RC, raff recycling clump, the poll Smith has designed which beautiful, you can have a look at Rafeh. Don't see see and interesting points made there by by pulse Smith mentions. A photograph is called Tom Simpson. I've been to his office, actually in London is just an emporium of cycling memorabilia, he's got loads of bikes Jersey's just everywhere everywhere you look, there's something cycling related. So he is passionate cyclist 'em. So this Jiro Daniel woods, where does it? Where does it rang? We're going to hear the best and worst moments from the writers are some of the writers all of them. But for you, you reflect on this Judy I'm not gonna get my one gos-. So tomorrow, wrench always day after the, the Jerry, we've very interesting winner in the sense, usually surprise winner is, is greeted with great excitement and fanfare in this case, it's sort of a semi surprises mates. A surprise the most people that kicking themselves for not having cottoned onto earlier or not having tips before the J. Right. Because the signs were there in the sense. The loss shave finished fourth overall wanna stage. Next start to the season when the what the studios performed well in other races races like Tirreno he was kept a pretty low profile, but hasn't had any significant illnesses or injuries. And yet, we rule pretty much convinced. He was coming to this cheer as a support rider for Miquel London. And we got it quite spectacularly wrong. Didn't we the first time I was really aware of him was twenty seventeen the Welte there was a stage in the first week that went through Bannon dorm, and the fish off his little climb, and I think Chris room on the stage, but Richard carapaces attacked on the claim. I'm assigning with fron reas who. New car parts per well, because the road for FRANZ team when he first came over to Europe and he was surprised to see him off the front of the group that, you know, this was only eighteen months ago. So, you know, his his progress has been rapid, but as you say, not Jiro last year in particular, you know, highlight it, I think, because it was solely on because it was. So overshadowed by Chris rooms. Race-winning right. On stage nineteen counterparts sneaking up into the top four kind of win unremarked upon on your right? That was the result on the performance really should have alerted us his potential as it seems alerted what was then team sky and debris for it who acted. Apparently quite soon after that, to sign him up. Yeah. And I think in the last year, he's confidences just grown escalated. He's had an interview. So it was a real breakthrough teams. Come forth from the last year was the first time he considered that he might one day contend for grant. Or then he went before this Chiro, he went home to Ecuador was training at three thousand meters above sea level. You know, this is something that we're all aware of now, the amount of training that goes on trial, this chair, I've been speaking, tip some coaches and team managers and they remarked upon one important role. It's now playing the the the richer teams tend to be able to. Food longer training for longer altitude camps. And they're doing that. Well with, with the Grahn leaders and large swathes of the season, and now consumed with altitude training comes in compounds born at three thousand meters above sea level. Sure, I'm sure that's Cianci's into his jeans on some level. But yeah his preparation was excellent. And this morning, I spoke to the manager of movie star just to gauge to what extent it was a surprise for him that cut up husband so strong this year. It's true. It's a big surprise by winning stage and finishing lost year already left everyone. He's business card that said made huge strides in a year. He's become break confident in himself, and he's does reciprocate that because he felt stronger and stronger. We'll sudden noticed earlier in the year, then he goes with Jiro. He was close to being the strongest guy here from the first time in bologna all the way through the mountains. She could also kind of Mikhail. He's a master in this kind of situation having been there several times before that brilliant performance from the whole team have made this possible. I don't think anyone should have been underestimating him after the first day she won on the day this new him Bittel ready. And I think he already showed enough on the first mountain stage for the this to consider him a candidate for the victory often that he simply gave them an encore Myer many became just a case of consolidating and. Taking any opportunity became his way with the final time trial road inches CPR that in mind. That's pretty much how it panned out. Took a few seconds in coamo, a few more punted Legno. And you saw what happened yesterday? I can't really gate yet. What impact this will have in Ecuador's honestly, though, I'm very happy to have done this with the right up from a new site in country. We did something similar for Columbia with Marican Tana six years ago. I know what something like this means countries like that. I mean, having an I'm Basseterre, who can achieve this sort of thing. It's really exciting that we've played all part in giving Ecuador a star like Richard, not least because he came from development system. So yes, it's a fantastic feeling overall. By the end Incas my year. Movie star, obviously have big business interests in South America. Don't they are spreading their net beyond Colombia, Ecuador, Costa Rica, the continent is obviously a great hunting ground for talent and Venezuela as well. And, you know, there'll be other Ecuadorian cyclists who who emerge because of Richard carapace. And I must say sitting with the Ecuadorian fans today did bring it home to me, just what this would be received back there. And we, we've read about the Ecuadorian television showing the last two stages. Live buying the rights to show the stage. I've, it's clearly resumes in Ecuador to a great degree. And carapace is set to probably get reception that we see, for some of the Colombian writers when they go go home. Yeah. The bitterness. For mobile. We think that they're gonna lose car pas next here the. What we've heard various things loss. She days that movie star didn't move quickly enough to, to the he wasn't on very much money. Yeah. They didn't move quickly enough to raise your salary off to a very good first year as a pro second year as well. And, and Consequently, I think his agent pay acquired a Royal pasta Cheerios is no, we've, we've done that story. I think before, well, he's had a fairly that particular agent has a fanny bumpy relationship with more. We star he's hired some of his big clients. They're like Nyerere can taunt but they've been disputes along the way and it seems that on this occasion with pas acquire role has well decided that, that kind of has it would be better off another team. And the team with which I quite has a very good relationship any worth noting that it was movie stars fifteenth grunter went in there in the course of their existence from I think this is their thirteen ninth season. In the peleton began as Reynolds, spike in nineteen eighty I think it was and morphed into BANESTO case depan movie star. They've been various incarnations over the years. But you know as been there through, and he. Yes. Masterminded fifteen grand through, which if you if you bring it isn't isn't isn't, maybe as many as should be nevertheless. It's no easy doing grants. I'll awful lot teams with an awful lot less pure, another team, believing this Chiro with much reflect on, I think, is you movies my who came in with a, a writer who law people is a favourite pretty much rug Lynch, and he won the way that he won the the opening. Time-trial prologue in blown. Yes, suggested the he was on fire, and it would be a case of whether he's able to maintain that form, handsome, bad luck along the way. I mean robot Heston key loss before the the race even started and then Lawrence too loose in the first week to illness. So he's been left, isolated not had the support that he would have liked em. I suppose Rishard Pook. The star at the day, this was before rogue lich managed to secure his place on the podium, racial Puga, general manager of you movies Ma and it's been really instrumental in the project to build a team. That can win a grunter vantage Jiro what what's your assessment of the race? And no. You came here with, you know, I'm Bishop of Primoz challenging to win the race. But what's your assessment? Hello. We still have one race to go one states ago. But I think we did really good job taking into account all the circumstances. What what happens? I mean we lost already four Jiro over tasing, which is really incredible strong guy, but those are experienced and of course, we brought in Sep who's talented and really strong but does not have the same experience as over facing. And then we lost the Lawrence of bliss, which was the left tenant for the for the for the end of the stages show desert us and and Primoz lots in during these these days. Do you think that it's been a factor don't want to say is this point because a good chance finish on the today, but I guess he's been in such great. Formal season there'd been two things that people talked about high. His form dipped for a little bit. And as he also suffered from not having much support in the marriage as some of the other writers in this race. I think yes, the letter and, and, and also aggression in the what was it Sunday? So he had he had some some pain in some restraints from from that as well. And so last week was not. He was not best anymore because, because we, we think, and of course like you said the what I said already. We missed a we missed specially Lawrence Indian is there. An argument oversee spreading your resources between the geo and the front. You've got strong theme going to the well is an argument for putting all your very strongest writers in one team for one grunter. It's good. Be an idea for for the next to the racing. But again, when we made a plan for this year, we had on paper, very strong team team here with facing can and Lawrence, and the other guys on, but then things are changing, because of regression years, you, you cannot say suddenly at that moment that we put in one of the other writers with with other goals because they are also not prepared to do what they have to do here. It was. So we had to, to choose for, for seven nothing that set again, I don't want to diminish. This is is capacities because he's a great writer integrate Dylan but elects to the experience. And if Primoz is to finish on the podium here, which is very possible. Would you regard that as another postive set forward in your development as a team? Yes. Roy, even if it is. This today. We made a big step in our, we, we went through two stages here, which is incredible riding five in, in a grant or is not something we did often as a team. And we saw also the experience with having the detailed favor of, of, of the Jiro in our, our ranks is also really important for, for the for the for the near future. So, you know, I see it as opposed if step on the learning curve. Yes, the result we would would have liked to, to be a little bit better on the higher on the podium. But I think, you know to be to be on this. I think we can be really be at the moment. So only think in the circumstances. Daniel movies, will be quite happy. Is there I for the immigrant or, and I think, you know, given what happened to rogue lich along the way and is interesting. You mentioned the crashes raw Lynch, himself mentioned, the crash on the road, Toco has been quite significant. Current in the downturn in his form that we've seen I think third place as, as result that they, they can be quite pro. Yeah. I think so the question with rogue which I suppose, is how much margin nurse from from proven. He's twenty nine base very young insulting terms. This third fourth grader full-frontal but third full season with the current team. And I'm speaking to monitor Matia golly earlier on the Jiro, and he. The just had this great momentum so far in his career in the sense that everything he's done has been new and everything. He's done has been better than the previous year. Will the luck for like comparisons positive, and now creates a snowball effect, and this may be the first time in his career where you could call what he's done here? Plateauing. Have you finished a total FRANZ in full place lost year? So now you know, he's very easy to go from that to a point where people start to get frustrated disappointed. Ask questions and the next Gruntal for road, which is going to be an important one. It'd be finishes fourth or fifth then people will start to ask questions. I think that there Easter Mogae for improvement. I think the timing of his form, peak is the big one, I think he was informed too quickly in this Chiro, possibly, inexperienced possibly not knowing himself fully yet. And. Mood in any more than any real. He has in time trials or or in the mountains. So I think he he's a very well rounded writer, isn't it? Don. You'll we've been last couple of days asking some of the writers for their best moments writers, journalists team managers anyone anyone we could find to speak to us about their best moments. I'm worse moments from this Cheeto. I felt like I was actually going better in the second week. I'm Jay brass key from team EF education. I tie crashed right before the rest day. I don't know. I feel like I haven't really been quite as good since then not bad. But like I was expecting more out of the third week. But overall, it's not bad decent. Jiro Jiro for the team like my last couple of seasons. Weren't great. So it's good. I don't know. I feel like I'm back on track, you know, back at the level, I know I can be at which is good eighty team Neal's of C turned into stage stage twelve. Like. Likud won that stage participants Astor, maybe too hard myself, but. Yeah, it was just like I'm moved into finish, maybe small too much and you live in learn as I said, after the race and I'll be back for short story, again hardest moment the day after the break again. So the first time in the race ROY race. My legs aren't so good today. Couldn't really follow the top goes. So didn't wanna go to deep into raid backed off a bit toward about today's stronger from their own, which was always positive. Yes, I take stage Turkey. Always wanted to do grand tour. I taught it was raised at suit me, I think. I've learned it is racist suits, me, and I can get stronger. They one to improve on. But. Yeah. The more I do them too gala Qingchen. Before to mix. The second coast at the tiny, he supported by scientists port. Taints is sport fueled by science. Thank you very much to sciences sport for supporting the cycling podcast. You can get twenty five percent off. All your son's sport products. Scientists sport dot com with the code SIS C twenty five as we near the end of another grunter reached the end of another grunter. We say thank you to sign sport. For supporting us in the neighbouring us to, to cover all the grand tours in the way that we do next stop Tertre fronts. But thank you to scientists sport. Daniel. Best moment, best racing moment for you and move the moment, I would say theme, which I think is cheer has been sure on storylines. Thanks, sean. Control cathy. I yesterday about Superman's altercation with the fan that reflects the fact there's been pretty sparse as far as control of ac- and talking points, humping concerned on this year. One storyline, which I have enjoyed as a sort of racing narrative has been supremo's rogue riches 'isolation and. In the face of some very strong teams. And even barring Morita, perhaps the strongest team to the Jared. But, you know, been surrounded by had lots of Everts cut Russo have been ready useful and Bismah have coped tool of tried manfully, the likes of couldn't Bowman. I'm set Koos onto untold who but they really been thrown in the deep, and at times it has been almost as the premiums rogue late. She's sort of floating down the river on a single to branch, the has has has fallen off. What was previously fairly rickety raft? And he's been very stoic in particular situation. He has a stoic demeanor about toes, countenances quite stoic, and to stereotypically eastern European inscrutable, and I feel very interesting, because, you know, we took a lot about high in the collective is in cycling. Sometimes it's. It's quite nebulous. We don't really fully understand when the team is important phases. The rice, how much is important in this instance, we've seen woman. Sort of taking grenades from from all sides, really an eastern pretty well, but it hasn't been enough in the end. So I think that's been one of the more intriguing aspects of this JIRA indeed. Well, I mean, a couple of racing highlights for me was well, designed Benedetti stage win was a was a highlight on. We can see in the action of his fellow writers, and they were, they were happy for which always very telling he's obviously very popular in the in the peleton. He does a lot of work for other people on this was one of those days where just all came together for him. And he's very serve on shu-ming modest humble guy, and, you know, I think he won a lot of people over with his, his, his his victory speech, you know, as very modest can away that he accepted the fire that he'd seems almost embarrassed by in a way. So that was a highlight another highlight was was today. Chad Haga winning the time trial 'em. He had a tear. Rable accident few years ago. January two thousand sixteen kelpie. Yeah. And I was there when it happened to interview, Joan, Dan, Kolb, and Tom Damola, and I was in their hotel when word came back about this accident that some of the right has been involved in a car had hit them head on the car being on the wrong side of the road. And you know, it's one of those things where initially the reports are all there's been an accident. It's been a crash and then just gradually, the news, the atmosphere darkens and the news becomes worse and worse than till you start to feel fear the worst. And it was a really awful thing to, to witness into to be around when it was going on. And when there was uncertainty about these guys weren't crashes left a really terrible on the team on certain individuals team. We saw Jen John comb win a stage France year, which research, first major win since that happened. Having previously won once on Raymond pirate bay. You know his his progresses. Really stopped with without crush, and he's been fighting to come back ever since and Chad Haga was another one involved in 'em spoke to him just a few weeks after the crash as he came back to racing flesh alone. I think about it every day. Many times a day, every, every risk, I take every chance I take in the races decision to make because because I have to battling feared and being scared constantly put as more races go, well, the, the more confident I get closer to my normal, self sounds Chad Haga mean almost a strong time trials on a winner today surprise winner. You know, they've solve is something in the end on web from a, a really disappointing race where Tom Damola the team is all about supporting try and win the second Jiro, but the flip side is, I think they'll go to France with a very strong team, Simon hopefully recover and. Wilco. Kelderman. And rich sort of ironically, you might think you might have thought the Chad Hager's Hager, Hauge, Hauge, Hayes responsibilities. Helping Tom Dima might have hindered him in terms of going for stage when actually helped him in the sense, the he, he had trained law, I think to, to help doom line in the mountains. Be a lot of work on this climbing. And consequently, he's been quite comfortable in the mountains, relative to the Leisa Victor company. That's he's fairly comfortable in the mountains ever lost few days. He's been able to conserve some energy and that was absolutely key today. Should we hear some more best and worst from other writers? Let's John, Paul. Right. That moment when I first time step on the podium to the pink jersey, I met this score really like a doom come true. Yeah. I think forever right? Good the Josie. I mean it's something special, you know, especially in the Jiro, and it's one of the biggest Royces. Yeah, I will never forget that moment than cope in the future will be some similar moments yesterday on the among Mongan. I didn't I some point didn't know if I could go over the top, you know, I was thinking I need to stop it. But then I just trying to push the push the push after a little bit more. I survived the bed moment, and then try to not lose this much to keep up twenty my name's Larry war best, I ride for Asia to our LeMond the Al and my best of the Jiro was probably the fish that I had last night, you know, we did like super long day. And our chef was like, oh, yeah. For dinner. We're gonna have like cod and the seriously cod. Like fish like I do. I do not feel like fish again the last night. So I was like not really looking forward to it. And then honestly, it was probably the best piece of fish of every in my life. So he cooked in like he used some kind of French vapor cooking with, like a plastic wrap around it. And then it was like, a, a coconut milk vanilla sauce, sort of thing. It was actually it was incredible. So that was probably my best Jiro. Unfortunately, the legs didn't really provide me with too much good memories. What was the worst? I'll be honest by Jiro in general was was pretty average. So the highs the lows, we'll pretty much all the same no no okay? Low. There was one day where my tire nearly rolled off on the descent and. It was like the second climb of the day. It was one of the is maybe was the second stage car has one and yeah, it was like I was like good position on this ascent, and I started to see my, my tire got really hot on descent, and started to roll off side to pull out of the group. And then the cars are so far back because you know everyone behind on the climb, and then the descent, and I ended up on the road by myself really far behind, and, and then ended up in the group PetO for really long day. And then someone tried to interview me about being in the group PetO at the end of that day. And that was really not happy about being there. So that was probably my low Jiro Johnny's. Soul. Very, very happy for the winner. Pumps in the central of these was vibo as the professional win at the beginning of the deal. And the moment was accident for Andrea environment in the finish. Because I think that it was able able to play the victory with statement chops. Larry will buy second love jerick. Yeah. Okay. So you just reminded me. I I don't know if I ever snapped. Very, very rarely snapped while I rarely snapped ever. But I very rarely snapped in a bike race. And. You know, the whole thing like when you the grand tour this always these guys who you're next to, you know. You just always run in the same place in the peleton. Okay. So, you know, he ended up there's always each guy has wanted to guys. And so you always kind of bumping bars for me. It actually used to be Franck slack. And, you know he thought he was like, you know, kinda hot shift so he'd always just try to take my wheel and whatever. So I used to let him but, you know, now I'm a little bit feistier. And so for me this year, a lot of times it was Hugh Carthy, and it's okay we've already we had talked, so so you know, I'm allowed to say this in public now. But like it was sometime the start of third week how the Motorola day I think, and it was like pretty early on in the day, and he's pretty lanky. So he takes a lot of space in the bunch, and moves left, Araya a little bit. And so one day I was behind him. And I know if I do something wrong, you know, sometimes I do something wrong, and I'll totally admit it, but this time I did really nothing. That was behind and he moved over. And I, I didn't do anything. I didn't say anything and they turned around, and he goes like Sunday. Like what were you trying to go? What's your problem? I just had enough from like I don't know the whole stress of the race in the weeks. I just went off and I just tore into him for thirty was like I didn't even know what I was saying, but thirty seconds straight. I just went off on just yelling and yelling and yelling and yelling. And I think he was so shocked to see. It's like crack. Then he didn't really say anything in response. In part of what I was saying was that you need to have respect whatever. And, and then he just said, I don't ever spec because no one respects me. But yeah, that then later in the day, we I went up to him. And I said, I'm sorry for tracking and, and we kind of like made up. So, so was okay we're good now. But it was that was maybe my low with euro feud is attack that day. Yeah, I know. Yeah, then he actually flew. And then I, I actually kind of bad because then you saw like the end when he sprinted with Neeveli and the Niba game shit. I was like, maybe he doesn't really get that's respect actually. But, you know so sorry. Untangled. You have a best Nanri seem woman. Yes. You'll news from. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't think you featuring it, unfortunately, rich, I think it was the evening spent with napalm Inbar ExCo tipping. Yeah, I'm fortunately, the best to I mean, we visited some fantastic locations. We always do on the on the JIRA the best to the two. Most enjoyed have actually not really been on the race route that being sort of own transfer long transfers between stage finishes and stars. So warm was in bad about ExCo. We decided to stay there after the stage to Novi legal and the star of the nice day was in Cuneo about the halfway point was the sort of Langa hills that the around Alba in Piedmont, and we had a fantastic meal inbound ExCo drank some good just wind and yeah, that was difficult to improve upon. Another one. Rich Sunday, get up last night. That was to be mine Bassano del last night. Yeah. That was a real revelation spotted that we were seeing the BNB Hemingway. I'm on a I'm not interesting. And then, you know as a as I as Lieutenant I saw this history between Ernest, Hemingway and Bassano del grappa from the first World War when he was base there and he was based in the building. We stayed in and it's a long building alongside the river, beautiful river. What's river called the, the Brenta and. One end of this block is the penny way museum on the other end was our Ben breakfast. And the Ben breakfast was just given over to, to Hemingway. And I went to the museum, the smarting on, you know, Hemingway's connection with the place is quite tenuous in a way and the museum as much. The first World War, and the talent campaign and the Americans who were who were based there, and it was very interesting. But also, it was a Hemingway on his, his whole life, actually, and, you know, reminded again, of restless, figure Hemingway was just the travel that he did the situations. He find himself in the, you know, the his involvement in well, first World War, the Spanish civil war, the second World War. He was always he was he always wants to be where the action was. And it was it was really, really interesting really enjoyable cultural morning. I knew mentioned the river, rich and the bridge over the river is quite remarkable. Most people's minds of mice famous, the most remarkable bridge in Italy is the punt Vecchio in Florence, maybe the, the Alto in Venice, the punk Dalyell Pini in by suddenly got up is is the hipster. For the best bridge in Italy, because it's it was designed by Andrea, Palladio Palladio has lots of extraordinary villas that were Bill in the renaissance period. So sixteenth century in the venedetto region. Most of them, all to the public, you can visit them, and now they're a couple of love grappa, boss actually, in the bridge honor the. Unfortunately, is filled with show. Yeah. I mean I was so inspired by my visit to Asano grappa the ball farewell to arms Hemingway's book that. That's really a fictional fictionalized kind of his time there on a love affair on his vulva, fresh World War, I was despised through prize one of the cycling podcast greatest ever movements, Daniel, because the opening paragraph in that book describes the very scene that we could see from our and so the smarting I went and find Larry warn bus who's from the same part of the world as having to link. She says he's from the midwest like Hemingway was, and he kind of speaks in that kinda Hemingway droll. So I went into find Larry war. Ernest Hemingway, Ernest Hemingway of the Palatine, and I asked him to read the only paragraph of farewell to arms. Sorry. Daniel, Richard made me do this. In the late summer of that year we lived in a house in the village that looked across the river and the plain to the mountains in the bed of the river, there were pebbles, and boulders, dry and white in the sun in the water was clear and swiftly moving and blue in the channels troops, went by the house in down the road and the dust they raised powder. The leaves of the trees, the chunks of the trees to were dusty and the leaves fell early that year. And we saw the troops marching along the road, and the dust, rising and leave stirred by the breeze falling in the soldiers marching and afterward. The road bear in why except for the leaves. So that was Warren bus reading Ernest, how did you get on asking Hugh coffee, three the Shakespeare, we'll get onto the get onto that and a minute Jennifer, ma'am? Couple of souvenirs from Asahi got grappa flavored toothpaste, manufactured by nominee, who invented the distillery, which invented cropper. Hugh coffee Shakespeare, not a marriage made in the time in. Yeah. In the city of love, and as to two gentlemen, of Verona. So have you seen somebody, I've seen gopher? The of love. Give spree. I feel. Anyway, she's working. She's looking very uncomfortable. And we were talking about Hugh coffee. I actually spoke to him after the face today. And it was another another classic. The growing key coffee and I'm Jay of great interviews here. What would be emotions when you came arena? They're nice. The confused. No one to go with the northern what's going down left to right show. But in a better direction next time I in the best three weeks of your career today, don't always hard to pinpoint. Different different different Pasha Kareem in different things. Most on. I don't know. I she's I don't know. I ought to say you perspective, change the times and get more experienced things thinks less important than the pasta. I'm. I'm happy copy, and I'm going to get completions still what to do. And. Same thing tweak things and briefings. Yeah. The writers have said, look at powerful. So this is not just been any ordinary granted. It's been a very hard one. Well, does that give you exercise? You've been able to do what you have in a very hard race. Yeah. Cast quotient. The question. No. Yeah. He's been hard. It's been hard towel falls. Heavy racist Harvey's days. There's no easy races. Star decision straight to John routines save nowadays. Have been good in Jordan on us for anymore. The plan tonight, especially planning to balcony the statue. Estevez on my famous Michigan skull yesterday. What pretty special one, but also star, these raise during for me what happened that year and being the start line, I was from, and like, just to be fair by the heart war kinds, all expectations and all the but moments, like I said, a very key. Keep living, keep fighting keep attacking, because you're never know when the bigger. I'm still Davis. And I write for team dimension. Data, probably the t so an expected. I'd real rough for seven days of the stomach problem, and Dallas really worry that I was gonna have to pull out to be honest, and then in the end, we just said all use it recovery. So not even go full Gus which with hindsight. I'm kicking myself now because maybe you never know. Was always said this, plenty of rough days, Israel. I, I refer as tough of this because. Yeah, we had long days and I just couldn't really eat properly or drink crop. Lace. But yeah. Car stability, moms joy, Hamlin author team somewhat actually I caught enjoyed the Motorola says done that clung once before, and it was pretty mythical. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Yeah. Rolling into the bottom of that climb. In the breakaway and works movement, then hitting the Motorola. Looking for magazine and the daily newspaper detailer, my very best thing of this Jiro wash. Agritourism. Gaza, the mama Mia Alba which was three. Terrific souvenir. Good foods, I guess pasta and the more Spotify, and finally team show. Beautiful rounding my place to rack your by the worst thing of peers Talia wash the weather always raining, always railing. I think there were three days of sunshine and I did the last couple of years, and the other two. Where foolish on every day. And now straining rating, really. And I really hated because it looked like we were in Holland, where always reading I, I am insulation that the mature listen, bitches sport magazine from Italy, my twenty nine Jerry, the thing I didn't like the most Indus Jiro was the first week. I never saw it. First week Leglise. Let's remember me the oath to the French didn't see stages. Good for the show for the ranking and see mountain finish in the first ten days. I like the most is the, the wish of the bigger fight everyday without big tech. And I think they enjoyed the race and is people I think, I n days have people to forget the first thing. Well, some more best of war stove there. Daniel. And what's been the biggest the biggest disappointment for you in the race? Well, they've been if you ride is, who have underperformed, I think aces, underperformed. He knows that. I think he's mystified as to what's happened. Oh, they rich. You mentioned earlier, the top the show Taylor, tapa mentioned, the time, gaps car, posits final winning winning about a minute. We were talking in the Colorado about how much has changed in the last fifteen years in two thousand six the winning margin even buses winning margin. Ooh, the caveats, you know, we need to apply to that, because Basset were subsequently exposed as a as a don't cheat. But he went, I think nine minutes going back a little bit further to Toews the FRANZ Yang. Rick woman, nine minutes in the Twitter Frantz in nineteen Ninety-seven and a winner. Richard counterparts who feels this is though he's one fella in particularly without any real moments of great alarm suddenly since about well stage ten or eleven. And Simon Yates has actually lost not not much time. I think he's final is final deficit from car about nine minutes. So, you know, I think not just speaks to the, the we know who all the most able, the most gifted guys in the Pederson are now, however, those, those writers still kinda Ford to be sort of one or two percent, the wrong side of their best form. Otherwise, they will they will come in with the result. Let Simon Yates's, which is, you know, respectable result, but it's not what he was looking for seven four nine nine. In the end. Yeah. I mean, Lopez been disappointments of Chiro also happened before the race. Even started there. I think there's been some months of anticipation for this race. We were looking at this races being potentially, if not probably the most exciting of the grand tour is because we had Bernal against the moola against Niba Lee against rogue lich and against Lopez and nobody mentioning counterparts. But we lost Bernal before the race star. Thanks, broken collarbone, and we then lost moolah in the first few days. And so, you know, I it's been a of an anti-climax, and I think almost goes back today, one, which I felt was an anti-climax the, the claim son, Luke and, and bologna, where the race started a tremendous arena for a long time. Been the greatest opening stay. We, we walked claim and thought this is going to be unbelievable. But then you've got Damola. I really old favorites in the first twenty writers, which Donyell hundred dollars on rereading your Eddy, Merckx spooked for future project, and the nine hundred sixty nine hundred France which marks he, he did the same his team also trying to be smart. And beating the weather beat the expected rain marks went off I prologue time from nineteen sixty nine I wasn't sure if that happened before, but yeah, I mean, the whole point of the date on the climb is the again anticipation. The build up and this was kind of initial burst of excitement that, just then. Graduate deflating the inflatable mattress of excitement. Now, I would agree with that, rich. You know, the coolest good metaphor for the race in a way. Yeah. The coolest itself has given us the my sprinting racing. We few nights ago about the reasons full that pink my venues in an impossible position by Matera's withdrew having been pencilled in the, the venue for the ground. They plug on the part time, sir. And he had to come up with an alternative route for not just got on their potential at the whole geo in very short order. And he did not. I mean, a few people while one sickly what's for us. Yes, said the. Venue is accomplished. Nothing short of a miracle to put the Jiro together, particularly now with the restrictions are under four security reasons and, and because of terrorist threats legislation that's into to counteract terrorist threats. It's getting harder and harder for us to, to design the particular when something like that happens with Tara, polio. So that's been slightly disappointing. Not been the most thrilling routes and it's not been the most thrilling JIRA, it hasn't, of course, the highlight is always well to Tallin legends. Gianni savvy has been giving us daily tactical insights into his team, Drobny UN today to present him with an honorary peddler to Sharm shirt, he was delaying a thing is a press release. Yeah. He he disappeared for two or three minutes. He went off to fund his team's press officer demanded. I am press released be written up on them. Hopefully that will be winging its way around the super internet. Highway for highway having many of our police will be publishing press release, I just a friend of mine Jonathan farmer who is an expert on all things. South, America's just smashing me save it and present Morano has recorded a video message for Richard Kara. Pas is phenomenal story in Ecuador. This apparently, so as I say, we'll see lots more reaction, but we should hear Janney savvy, you had to say on being given his shirt, then we'll hear from another talion legend. I am very, very happy. And thank you very much for these. Fisher bay lured the Cher. Hello sound found see. Using branch but. He's. The little Sharma the show me gentlemen. Thank you much. We at least nece I'm not. We reach, I'm not done yet love. I'm outside the doping control. Almost two hours after the finish of the stage because I'm waiting for the shot could be chained Saliba is in the last anti-doping control of this Jiro d'italia something has the number twenty two stage Leeson. So it's not easy for me. But this message is a settling a massive match. A must see for message of love for you. And I hope that richer and Neil can give you this message. And mainly the listeners the to veto is over. But now my all days coming now, the most important question for the end of this Jiro, the for my early days of. Italian bitches or a Greek island. What do you think? We don't have much more time to our coverage from the jeeter. Do. Hey, we're going to wrap wrapping things up. That's what we agreed. Yes. Anything else? Anything else? Hispanic spinning, wonderful talk about our worst often race moment. When the, the Italian Tommy Robinson. Yeah. Think so about that the better we had Lionel with us for that, of course. But yeah, I mean I guess we all look forward with grand to speech into your Wayne gloss rates tomorrow. The only intrigue left in this year's Chiro isn't it? Before we go down. We're going to hear the last little madly of writers. Bashing worst moments from the Jiro. Thanks, everybody, who's tuned in and listened, thanks, everybody, who's bought one of Stacey ciders mugs. Thanks, everybody signed up as a friend of the podcast, if you'd let uses producers account to that, if you'd like to sign up to podcast, this cycling, podcast dot com do so there is fifteen points for a year's worth of special episodes, exclusive content. You can also bind as a friend for somebody, which people seem to like to do. It's a nice gift idea. And just drops in Email contact at the site can podcast com-, if you'd like to buy a subscription to this podcast as a gift for somebody this perfect present for the cycling fan who has everything isn't Donyo. Yes, thanks. Our producers, Tom Walley Jonathan. Ru them Bowie will Jones John Mooney. Can do they different Tasse job, especially when as out on a couple of? Occasions, this Chiro we've had a couple of technical problems problems, the cables, but. They've degrade job, especially when we have problems like that most of the listeners, thank solicitors. Thank you very much indeed, for listening on furlough your feedback, and comments throat at the Jiro, thanks. I'm outta Tara, as well for the music. And, and thank you to you Daniel because you've been here for the whole three weeks. Stoic stoic like. Thank you. Rich. Brian Copeland Bahrain Morita, general manager bologna was great for me. I mean we, we had partners from McLaren in the first grand tool for them to, to see the crowd that came up to, to see Vincenzo Rodman. So I really enjoyed Polonia letters that was great coming up to the mountains for me. So is lovely billion the mountains of spiritual areas. Fishy this part of the dollar marches, his fantastic difficult days have to say, unfortunately, the day where to send Christian quarter with unfortunate news, that he was involved in, in under Las case, so that was really sad for us to lose one writer in that way, it's Mitchelson Scott. Studied very well in the prologue has been going down. Since fortunate lodging OTT's, started really great. I wanted to be t- that we've done. Yeah. Join me from CCC. I think this all JIRA grand juries for me. I'm believable because we have three weeks of the racing. We have good atmosphere. We have flat stages. We have mountain stages. So I really enjoy these stages, where I suffer a lot. So I think it was far days ago. This was divorced momentum in my junior. Yeah I had to empty legs. And I suffer from start to finish. Yeah, I made it. Our first one, but I made his you Richard enough to actually fatal. Well, I have to say that for much, I knew the Dolomites I'm always amazed about that. And especially the call yesterday. We the tuners and song. I heard that about climate that was never in and yeah. Some although and I see that's pretty crazy crazy client, see into Texas. For. The best moment was obviously stage off, Motorola because he's was came up there to three times. We tried to win the stage and that they find anywhere able to make be which was a stressful day. But we make it and the worst was, I think the crash off Moschetti because was young guy, you wish proving that the to be able to be in the game for the for the springs. And then you to that crash. She yes to abandon and for us be PT, because we know much we invest in Eamon much can develop and obviously now was out, so was was the worst moment. There.

Jiro Jiro writer Jiro Daniel woods Ecuador Richard Migo Anghel Lopez Primoz Lynch Ernest Hemingway Chad Haga Larry Verona FRANZ Yang Europe Simon Yates bologna Motorola Donyell Morita Tom Simpson Colombia
Building Teams Apps with Hilton Giesenow

.NET Rocks!

58:43 min | 5 months ago

Building Teams Apps with Hilton Giesenow

"Welcome back to dot. Net rocks aided awesome. It is awesome. I don't know what it is. But it's also whatever's no you know it's awesome is a nice chris blanket of snow outside in the woods. Oh while we're recording this you guys get a nari stab leave. I don't know if it was a nor'easter maybe it was a nor'easter junior but it's just gentle snow right now. Maybe i saw through the blizzard. Part of it but Yeah it was just dumping rain here. If it had been a bit colder it would've been big policy but it wasn't so hearing lots of rain. Yep yep well let's get started today with it's going to be a great show. I can't wait but we have a little business. I called better know a framework awesome band. What do you got so this being seventeen. Twenty seven seventeen twenty-seven dot top dot me you will see python jupiter notebooks in excel embed jupiter. That's j. up y. E. r. into microsoft excel in write python instead of ebay because awesome bring it because yes but look i mean. Vba's been in office for a long time right. It's the old visual basic from liked the ninety s visual basic for applications. That's right and it's not be met for the old baby. Yeah and so we kept waiting for. What's the new scripting. Language would be for a long time. It's going to be javascript. Thank god right. But the i it. They jumped to imbedding jupiter notebooks. Then it can be any frigging language. You want man hasn't matter why should it matter. That's the modern answer. Absolutely genius brilliant awesome. So it's a package called pie. Exel l. dash jupiter and There's an article that goes along with it and it's pretty easy to get started. If you're you're python head then you should find pretty easy. And i'm not so sure you know if grandma franklin doing her taxes is going to use this but You know a lot of us. Geeky folk we have excel spreadsheets for numerous reasons and If you like python. It's your lucky day. So i mean just the way notebooks. Keep stuff organized and and the strength of python to extract data. So you wanna pull some data in the low duke. sal which is what a lot people do with excel. We haven't even really talked about third too much on dot net rock and it's starting to show up everywhere in. It's everywhere yeah. Yeah and who's a big fan is Jillian the notebooks all right today. Who's talking to us. Richard super cool dude. I like that a lot shoe. And i and i hope it. It becomes an approach that the austing takes a whole eighty. Replace it. Yeah it is a very modern way to think about scripting Yup yup hey. I grabbed a comedy. I was show nine fifty three what we didn't even do that show. I'm someone else fifty three which is almost like seven years to the day that this show comes out. Okay was from february of twenty four days last time we had held other show. Wow we only had three digit shows. Which man i'm here. I was just way but he never a call dry. Enterprise share point which is really cool. Because i think we're gonna talk about very enterprise. The approaches to teams too. So it all kinda ties together with me and so. I'm dragging a comment. That seven years. Old but i thought was particularly relevant is from casey college because hey guys great show. As soon as i saw this show on my iphone because there was iphones. Back at twenty. Four i listened to it immediately. Mike companies share point for everything. We recently moved our company internet to complete share point solution over my perspective. It was a square peg in a round hall because the scope of the project. I guess that will happen when you want your share point to be facebook because there was back in two thousand fourteen as well never heard of it. I look forward to seeing more shows like this sewri. I don't think we did that. Many other sh seventy years. I'd like to hear more about developing for share point. Because some of us have to do this. It's like wow. It's been seven years casey. I know we did a few share point shows but not that many live. We're gonna talk about this kind of development this. How does mike company internet work together. What is collaboration. Look like in the twenty first century with four digit dot net rugs episodes right about now casey. Thank you so much for your comment. A copy music. Oh by is on. Its way you'd like a copy of needs to co by right comment. The website at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks. It's like sharp. only different. We publish every shows on the show was your coffee music. Oh by and definitely follow us on twitter. I met carl franklin. He's rich campbell. Send us a tweet in python please to cheaper notebooks. Tweet all the hip to please guys. I smell beard oil. okay nice. That's what's going on Hilton week at a get hilton giessen. Oh back on the show. of course. that's the other guy laughing there but let me read his bio for you. It's a quick one deeply passionate about the microsoft teams development community hilton is a leading user under the team's tag on sites like stack overflow also a regular contributor to multiple source projects and a frequent presenter on teams topics he's also founder of chit chatter dot com. That's not c. H. a. r. dot com a startup building apps to make using teams more effective more functional and more productive. Welcome back hilton. Thanks thanks called an inch agreement here. I just wanted to say we're talking about going back. A few years was thinking as we were sort of putting the show together and giving some thoughts to it that i started my career likes probably not long before you started the show a Let me say going back that. I think the greatest influence on my career of seventeen news has been dotted rocks to say a huge. Thank you to you guys. And it's a great great privilege to be on the show and be part of that amazing amazing thing that you've that you've put together so thank you for me. And and maybe on behalf of the listening audience to wow. I think the other five guys would be really impressed. That listen all the coal and gary against the bbc homepage wanting to go back to that page. Well it's really cool to hear stories like that because it just goes to show you that if you're engaged in your profession you know as a software developer and you just want to listen to other people complain about their experiences and talk about the successes. Know the the show if you paying attention you can. You can learn a lot. That directly affects your career from shows like this absolutely yeah male. I certainly have a seventeen years of a wide range of topics so again. Thank you and the great british to be on and hopefully share some useful things with listeners from that seventeen years developer. That makes you greybeard necessarily. But she's like you've been doing this a long time and you call yourself a teams developer. Is there such a thing. Yes please enlighten us. Well i mean you can define teams development in various ways. I mean the the easiest way to say. It is effectively recovering ship. The bill right unkind. We'll talk turns that share point developers went through over the years. Right you at the share point team needed to invent their own kind of development repeatedly point besides using it for various things when i had to is that the people that taught share point classes in did share point consulting made a talk of money next. They slept night though. So i talk about being recovering. Now we we still do still do share. Point work with clients consulting and development whatnot is pretty much. Everybody in that game has become more widely office three six five developer and so on. Because would have. Let's say bolton internet in shape point but then you would have to form that was built in with. That was bullshit when you know. Those kind of things appealed off into the powell family. Frequently power power to mates and whatnot but You know so. We want to pick those things up. But yeah sean ship. When still visibly alive and kicking in many ways and still an amazing product i mean. It's it's commercially obviously for microsoft in tremendous but aside from that continues to be a huge value adding tool in a lot of companies suffering. Getting me you know. We still ho customers. What they're before we get into teams too much. I'd like to hear a little bit of history of teams if you know it Because for me. It just sort of came out of note microsoft teams. Oh wow what stat. But but like many things microsoft it started off as one thing and got renamed and rebranded and tweaked and updated in teams. So where did it come from mean. Richard you're probably much more widely knowledgeable than than i am certainly in writing the dot net bokan and so on. You might have some some views. Congress speak too much to where it came from but You know my suspicion is it was really largely a A way to address the influence that slack was It will the Compete against like in some very politely. Whole direct version of this is in microsoft is bought other chat products and they've had a ton of different communication products like when they acquired skype and then they built their own that they initially called lincoln into colored skype for business. But it wasn't skype but it was bad for your business name in two thousand sixteen You know they microsoft was talking to slack about acquiring them right like they were. They were dead they were going to buy slack and it made perfect sense to buy slack right for them and interesting now. Slack i think is owned by oracle. So i i don't know if they're happier there or however that went but you know the some discussion as to whether that was a real offer you know actually went the way it was supposed to go but only teams actually a clean slate product. But they they wrote their own version so i thought it was a repurpose skype for business. It's not it. Isn't it's separate. They're actually trying to get x for people to move over two teams. I mean and if you're confused about the communication products from microsoft then. You're clearly paying attention. It's a mass. It is the the crazy remember when there was a time when i had seven different things in manav wonder there's not an irony in the name there so yeah absolutely. Incidentally i just double checked. Its sales full support slack. How it sales worth about and speaking of your drive. That's going to play into my story of aggravation next week. Don't you worry food. we're going to go. What a surprise. And so they've said they want to phase out skype for business in favor of teams but well some so microsoft. You certainly made that a big part of the marketing story. Something actually wanted to touch on with with digital anyway tonight because you know sitting i think as we said teams was in many ways dr competitive slack. But despite that microsoft's marketing. Which you know i can i can understand. I don't suppose i would have done it any differently. But in some ways that were victim of their own success with teams marketing. You know they needed to explain to companies why they had this new tool in what the future was. You'll you'll remember teams very much sold as the new modern scott for businesses. Scuffled business alternative. You know the replacement right front and that were successful at that. You know not a companies. Drop their scuffle. Business will Began migration projects and what mother companies were in office three six poverty which which was great and one in on on. The one hand in terms of getting people moved over as quick as possible and who wants to be managing multiple products. That do the same thing at the same time. It was a little bit of a detriment to microsoft. Because as much as become at the stood as the scott full business replacement it also became understood as a scuffle business replacement i e communication voice video and i am chet which it certainly was and continues to be but a lot of companies. Still only see it that way. And that's the that's the sad thing. That's the microsoft's marketing mission. I guess these days to try and help people understand that more than just communication. It is also significantly a collaboration and productivity platform. As won't richard. You interviewed stephen rose. Mutual friend about that and that was just a couple of months ago and he was talking about exactly that you know. They're trying to encourage people to move out of that mindset to continue using teams but move out of the mindset of purely communication tool and The you know the credit to let it is yeah. I think it's part of the problem. Is that teams is kind of a metaphor buster. This fact that it crosses a lot of these different things and so you know we as engineers tend to wanna put it in a narrow pastures. Oh it's just for communicating right for voice or voice with a whiteboard that kind of thing and it's not just that it's the problem is you can't sell it for what it should be. It should be the first app you look at it in the morning instead of Right like that. They always in the still pulling the alan cooper mindset of. What's the sovereign app like. What's happening of Screen space absolutely so. That term is is one that i got from you somewhere in the dock. History of of on an very much speaks to executive at. You know the the the idea. There i guess one of us is to kind of put it in a nutshell is. It's the app that's running all the time that she is where you do. Your work. outlook was always aiming in. That is always been the app. That's running all the time but it never became the place where you do. Everything tried it with some of the dash boarding and so on but it never had the capabilities of the mindset. Never had the the apple model. The extensively model is central to really went although it was running all the time for people to really want to do everything in there and that's very much. What teams is aimed at outlook had an ability model. It was designed to crash outlook repeatedly sovereignty. Two reasons. Well three really your contacts. It has your calendar and has your email and it's tied up all the threads on your desktop and it. Hey i n five threads in use you exactly. I'm always just missing jupiter. You know that because of that part of it is that a were abusing email. Like we've learned now that you just can't final there's kinds of conversations at don't flow well through email right there. There are bad like it's not an effective strategy communicating. This on that all e mails bad. But that you you reach a certain threshold of email where all you're doing is managing e mail rules and you know you're not you shouldn't be managing them. It should just work. You shouldn't have to manage email. that's what i think. i think. Emails for communication. And as long as you can find what you wanna find when you need to find it. I people go crazy making folders. It's just a question of how for certain is not only one kind of communication is not an effective. It's some kinds of communication. Yeah you're we try and use it for all an exact and talk. Society male teams gives us. The you know it gives us the chat and the voice and la video and the screen sharing that kind of stuff in one but again. That's still very much in the in the. If you wanna call it that the communication police otis being you know if if you don't mind it's might be sort of spend to what collaboration means. At least you know. This is hilton's view it as a as a as a gospel but talking about kind of collaboration and productivity and what that means teams. Because i think this is squarely getting us into the idea of what we want to talk about on the show. A little bit in terms of development is understanding with the scope is for apps and then we can maybe talk about the different kinds. You can both teams so again. We're talking very much communication so voice and video a pretty easy to understand. But even i am teams. Gives you that that check capable of if even if you're not a regular teams use you. You've certainly seen that but that chatwin. I'm talking chat. A lot of people are still seeing it as a one to one kind of. Im too we do some as mentioned some consulting in the office space with customers and we helped them look at the amazing analytics at max provides now and so on and we certainly see in a particular with over the you know the loss. German pandemic gotten into teams. I mean no matter what you buy and the sea coast says it's interesting. There's no doubt that the greatest teams adoption tool possible was covid nineteen crew but again we look at those analytics and what we see is voice video one to one i am. Jet teams introduces the microsoft's version of an idea of cold. Working out loud which is really the the what would trying to encourage that sort of mindset. Which is the family of tools the and the the facebook workplace and so on is the idea that instead of let's say you know we were all in the engineering team. If calls questioning wants to. Richard he might email oil coal. Or i m richard one to one but the problem is by doing that. You've looked at Communication into a into into a silo of activity were only the two. You have a visible it. We move that communication into a public forum. Then all of us know what's going on and if you know calls not the tomorrow rich tomorrow or whatever it is when takes leave. Cut forbid as we've seen in this loss jide their hope imminent things so he say then that conversation becomes visible and everybody knows what's going on in everybody's got the history so they were getting more into collaboration rather than just pure communication but It requires people to move their conversations into the team's part of teams. You notice the name. And i i'll tell you the thing that got me bought into teams like where went. Okay now i get. It was one of those. It was An email with like three two and four c. c.'s. Asking a question and and you know what's going to happen now like i actually when i look at that as well somebody else is going to answer this right. Like am i on the to line at the c. Line like who's what's the level of responsibility here and you're just kind of waiting something going to happen. But in this case one of the person to line flipped it into teams like there's a button to push it exactly mail as a chat in teams with everybody that was on that email in the chat right and so now you don't have to. The the other thing that was happening was two or three people were writing long explanations of the answer and duplicating work. but now we were all at the chaps. You could see who was typing and so we all added information to that. It actually was a shorter more efficient. Answer that show that came sooner and was with better engagement absolutely not attach a file throw throwing follow attachment to that scenario would dock and Balloons out of control. Now it's vision itis so there's a great great video on that cold email trees something like that from a few years ago that we used to send around. But it's exactly that everybody's trying to collate copies and so on so so teams. Let's do exactly that kind of capability. But incidentally i think personally would find teams significantly better than snack is not just the communication around that but the way that it surfaces other capabilities into that communication at the same time snap slack. Lets you do that kind of chat for example but the tabs capability and teams is a is a real game changer because the three of us are having that chat whatever it is immediately we get a foul step and guess who's their old venture point back and behind the scenes but automatically simply by having that chat we automatically get a place that we can shave content immediately and more than that. Those tabs are extensible. Some should you've probably seen screenshots presentations or whatever. It is where we can add a number of microsoft capabilities immediately into there so we can you know if we're on engineering team. And we're bullying version twenty-seven we can immediately put out plan a plan inside there we can. We can put an excel spreadsheet of some sort. You know the bug list can be pinned as a tab citrus. So that's why we have unlock the collaboration and then certainly getting into the productivity space around teams which is in a very unique spice. Yeah yeah well again. It has the important things it has the contact list and has the calendar at any has the ability to message like those seem to be the key bits. But i love your point about file. Management is huge. Because you don't have problems it's already automatically back like he can't use your inbox as file storage anymore. Like it's not a good idea. This is a better way to do those things. Totally totally totally end. External sharing not bringing ship on onedrive. Yeah which i would. Argue is the one place where teams falls down. It is when your inside a company in teams. It's amazing when you start to bring in external people it's a. yeah. I mean look we. Getting into philosophy in some ways with the company said microsoft will never be as good in consumer in in my opinion as google's will be. I'm sure i'll get some some black helicopter upping out. yeah absolutely. Everybody has an e. five year golden very interesting main but as soon as the identity problem at microsoft is a hard hard problem and we're all mvp's like and we've got it worse. I i don't know how many identities i have floating around inside the microsoft system guys. I'd like to apologize right now. For the snow plow in the background that is ploughing my driveway. I'll thought that was the helicopters arriving at the helicopter. To yeah absolutely absolutely so yeah in a nutshell very much i think teams takes the communication. Believe of of outlook extends hugely. The collaboration can put in brings all the productivity tools. If you need an expense claim form and we believe in power ups we just stick that straight into the finance teams in a team area and there's a differentiation between something called teams was channel and what not to be in chat about a bit but effectively into that team so yet very much the nightlife and yeah so i guess that's the interesting bit about this. Is the programming model. That opens up to extend this stuff. I just hope it's better than the share point dev experience. Well the the good news is it absolutely. That's that yeah. But haven't invented any significantly tremendous new technologies to try would. So what's the stack. How does one go about building teams as well. So that's a great question in order to understand that though it's it's while spending a little bit of time talking about the different kinds of extensively points that there are teams because the technology can vary depending on what you're trying to both so we spoken about a tab for example. I'm sure it's not news to anybody that you can build a box inside a teams as well right and there's a few other bits and pieces. We can chat about but the way that you build a tab which is effectively nothing other than a web page. I framed into teams. You know the effectively just building a weapon so you know any whip technology that you comfortable with you know if you're a no jay s or an espn at tora. Heaven forbid of hyphen is a developer. You can instantly become a teams tab develop trying to be friendly that but victory just just pure web development so i mean blazes another big passion wheels. Call on something. That i've been on my to do list for a long time to look into But to my knowledge blazers suddenly becoming something that you can work in teams for example. It's the way that web is dying. My house l. bats an armor spending a poorer but developing react developer. And i'm thinking switching to blazer about absurd but yes effectively building tab. you're you're you're building inuit technology and there's a few other places where we're pops up as well But you know. That's that's the way it is a guest move visible you. I in in terms of what you're building if you're building a box so you know there's some kind of interaction that chat interaction that that makes sense to what you're trying to bolt then you're looking to use one of the but But stack technologies effectively now to that end. Microsoft has a tremendous to could call the buck framework. That saw you might have been counted. Try to And if you've hit it outside of teams it's really a generalized framework. That's probably ran into it. It's microsoft stack for building building a facebook or a snack bar. You a web to anything at its whole using that same stack. Now it's really good for Just the whole parsing real language finding the nouns verbs and translating those into actions. It's a pretty pretty cool. Well we show with phil hack last week. Talking about chat ops as idea of using lots as part of your cic cd pipeline sort of the the. The part of automating development bought ops. Bought ops buffs. But i don't wanna focus on the dev side of our own devs workflows. It's interesting to think about chat bots for regular line. Workers working in teams to that are not fac dots. Most for the most part right like sure seems like when most i'm gonna see bots running around the fact it's like you could have. You could have just looked down the list of answers to questions and instead you could type. The question spits it. Yeah absolutely so. I mean look interesting enough. There's a lot of technologies behind the scenes. That are that are important. Understand when you get into the butts. I mean we spoke about framework But but at the end of the day really as much as a tab is just a web spa effectively just offering about his basically just a whim. It's just something that receives a post request with adjacent pilot absolute nuts and bolts so. They're fumbling watson powershell and whatnot when when really feels you know like entering the pain of that but at the end of the day that just receive a message what it does with that message and how it understands messages talking about call and how it responds to that and where does it say i look up. And so on is getting into the world of of natural language understanding natural language. Pausing and so on so microsoft provide additional tools. That you kind of pretty much need to have someone standing up in order to work with us so most kona which is something called lewis the name of understanding services part of the microsoft stacking and the purpose there is to understand what the uses intent is. So that you will doesn't become farmlands lines of functionality. Three hundred lines of if the us hello or hollow or hollow come call etcetera etcetera trying to use ai to infer that this is the user requesting so service xs. Why that kind of thing. Yeah the actual stuff is pretty trivial. I mean it's sending messages right but it's the it's the what how do you what the users trying to do. And say that becomes the real challenge programming. And louis ayuthaya as you said is is microsoft's way to do that and that's lewis said i just Incidentally for them for the listeners. Look into that absolute and guys. I'm going to interrupt for one moment for those very important message. You know since the pandemic most of us are cooking and eating at home. We don't frequent restaurants like we used to but we do have to shop for food which can put us at risk. One solution is to subscribe to a meal. Kit delivery service like every plate. You might think it's more expensive to have fresh ingredients shipped to your door but every plate dinners are cheaper than takeout way cheaper than delivery. In fact one every plate meal costs about the same as a lot. We're talking fresh ingredients. Meats vegetables herbs spices. Everything you need to cook delicious meal with no wasted food in about thirty minutes. That's less time than it takes to shop and cook to call for take-out or have a pizza delivered. That's why i subscribed to every plate and now you can get three weeks of every plate meals delivered to your door for just two ninety nine a meal. That's three weeks of meals for two ninety nine per meal go to every play dot com and enter the code dot net three. That's every plate dot com and enter the code. Dot net three. Have you ever wondered if you could be offering a faster less buggy application experience for your customers with reagan application performance. You've got all the information you need right at your fingertips to find and fix errors. Performance problems across your tech stack down to the line of code. Reagan makes it easy to monitor the impact of your performance improvements quickly identify and resolve issues and see how your code performs in the hands of your customers saving you time money and sanity visit reagan dot com join thousands of customer centric software teams who use raygun every day to deliver flawless experiences for their customers. That's reagan dot com to get started on your free fourteen day trial and we're back dot iraq's i'm richard cable. That's carl franklin. Heo and hilton. Giesen know who's Talking little bit about what we can do in for extensions and i mean we could spend a do a whole show on box but there's other things too right. Yeah absolutely amsoil. Well yes and okay so let me sort of run you through the different types of the main extensively points. I guess that the inching spoken about tabs and butts already but few others that are that are quite useful to understand. There's a concept of of where books teams as well both incoming and outgoing so in a particular channel. I can configure whip and incoming way book. The basically. Just unique url. And then. i can send a message to that to that channel from anything anything that can make a simple whip a post so that becomes an extensive ability point. There's also include connectors which kind of takes similar route to that route route depending on how you say but there's also something missy extension for example so these are things that are pretty well known in the demos where it can be topping a message to somebody and and instead of just giving them a link to the page and wikipedia i can. I can insert a little snippet from wikipedia into the message. all the financial shia codes. And all of those demos shoot. Many people have seen those a capabilities of inserting a richer version of the message. For example is something called a A message extension and they're actually three tops those there's the command bar in the top teams where we can put commands in so we can based invoke commands team's wide using that and then we can insert actions into the actual individual messages. So that's another form of extensive ability all three of those full full for whatever reason role cool message extension on it in fact to make it even worse the ones in the bottom whereas talking with the wiki pedia. The actual texting input box. Because that's where you compose the message. Mrs extensions used to be cool to compose. i think it was composed extensions in the in the manifest files and so when they still even though you building a message extension for some reason to put it in the sinkhole the composed extension of gets a little confusing. But it's not too bad but it but it can be confusing. Thomas now interesting enough. Those composed extensions message extensions and the outgoing books actually all pretty much at slightly differently but pretty much all of those actually take before butts behind the seat so butts of for more relevant than they have seen it fails. Yeah absolutely. So you serve your. Let's say bullying a compose extension for example it will. It will live inside of your but in point alright. So there's always there whether using the natural language interface pieces or not this is that's exactly is really a template are their templates north winds for teams. That's a great question. I hadn't thought about in that way. That takes me back like a real history. Show engineers g of microsoft. Yes i mean. That's that's obviously a great a great question and there are tremendous starting points. It's it's certainly with calling out some of those. I mean we're talking about but framework freeze only if you had to give up rock framework communist. That's microsoft starting point. The only confusing thing in the team space. I think in terms of understanding the framework is that this is the generic but framework. That will the general framework from microsoft. So this is the same tool that Abusing to bolus lacked for example which is great on the end. But if all you're building is something for teams in a can be a little confusing some of the samples necessarily relevant to what you're but certainly in terms of getting getting some understanding on. That's a that's a great place to start The teams if you focusing on teams. I'll give you a link to the long to read out with his a great place to To start in terms of general teams development the maximum dog so often testing can give a great story of the kind of capabilities that have spoken and obviously a whole bunch of other important but some pieces will and then just shooting in in the team space. There's a there's a tremendous pens and practices library. That's bullying up of of team specific samples the but framework team themselves have a huge sample library. What the cool about oldest samples all of those by the way or will pretty much older. Those are in Multiple languages so anything in the but framework you'd be finding in a dot net node python and java. One of those is your language of choice. Also that's a great place to get stone. Speaks to kind of lying language agnostic. You can you can do it the way you wanna do it absolutely absolutely getting back to the ship. On days of you know you'd have to deploy this thing on the silver has to be And by the way every time you deploy up to app you need to do. A full is recent of the entire foam. So yes no. We've we've come a long way and this might be out of left field but is there anything in teams that allows you to do the kind of Composite video stuff like if you want to share your screen but you have a webcam right and you wanna put your webcam in the corner of your screen while you're sharing it. Does it have any of those kind of cool features so there are some cool things. One of the one of the very interesting capabilities just released was the ability to control the presenter mode. If you're presenting powerpoint directly through teams so you can you can basically have a presenter mode which would have had with. The native capability could always just shave screening and control that yourself to monitors and whatnot so the is some capability. But it's nowhere near what you'd get with a lack of an obvious but bear in mind teams simply services. Whatever you tell it so if you if you really want that kind of control you can simply create an obvious mitchell camel in that way. I'm not super familiar with with that stack but the understanding is you. Could you could basically do that in something. Like the obvious studio teams. Share that as as you'll content. Yeah i figured that's what it was. I'm looking through the eat. We've really been talking on the bought side of development this also the whole office side of development for microsoft teams like these a ton of bought samples. But there's also like messaging extensions in different web hooks. And i mean a real question i have is like is the thing you thinking about. Does it already exist. Or is it three quarters of the way there. You can download it. Just make the extensions. You're going to need to with all of these app templates. Yes absolutely so. That's another great Linked to throw out there as well all the stuff. I've been showing israeli conceptual. You know the docs whatever to get started and then few samples to teach you how you might wanna do what you wanna do. One of the great resources in mexico has aside from just the samples in docs would help you build what you might be wanting to conceive. Is this huge and very fast growing resource of something called the templates for microsoft teams. Started out of remember exactly in probably eighteen to twenty four months ago. Something like that and they were five or six after you could get you which were fool. Complete running applications with guidance. On how to i mean. They're all open source on get up and whatnot. So you can download and customize you run the app customers. It is but aside from that full details on how to actually provisioned these apps yourself so running. Whatever technology needs imagine functions wedgewood web app or whatever it is is detailed instructions on how to get each one of these up and running but over the intervening time between then and now. I couldn't even count them anymore. Five or six apps grown into dozen out of thirty or forty easily dozens of All kinds of things. So if i just read a few ones as an employee training epochal tracker and an icebreaker in hr support incident reported just tons of stuff. Look absolutely just simple not simple absolutely just tremendous starting points to go in. Use something straight off the bat. That's been built by another team. But completely free relatable when i say free by the way i mean there's less risks associated with the code is open source the the The the sambas themselves are completely free. But you do need a host them in asia so some of these things will that you host him in. According to the default said they provide which might be an agile web app of size. And so you know you might be paying. A lot of them will have a cost estimate with the one. For example. you know the company community cut. It's totally free to download. But they suggest a hosting infrastructure. Which would cost you something. In the order of seventy dollars a month you can scale that up and you to start to rebel some of that in different formats on the mcafee again. That is open source but just be aware know. There's going to be some kind of hosting cost but aside from that a huge tremendous resource. And even if you don't want to use the app as is it's obviously a great starting point fielder if there's something someone that you want to build functionality wise against one of these absence a huge resource yeah petitioning to me that you're building stuffing office. Three sixty five. But it's also going to need some asher baha behind it as well is tricky combination. Just you know steph scott. Run somewhere if i'm debt like you've gotta talk to. It right but you may or may not be allowed those resources like you inside a small thing could just go. Oh i can whip this little thing to get into a runoff sixty five. Well yes or no. I mean absolutely. Look if if you're in the macro of will heavily invested their edges. Probably not a stranger to this point in time. So i think it's a reasonable reasonably fair assumption to make but at the same token remember these simply free open source apps download and customizes as you went to as we mentioned earlier. For example. a tab is just a just a web now for production. It should be hosted on what needs to be production. Hdp https in points. You can't run these on you'll you know on a local. Hdp insert single down here. It has to be a little bit more robustly hosted but if you want to download when any samples a version of it in python and hosted on aws infrastructure for example. You totally totally Able to do such a thing being maxwell being much to make sense that they're that they're based but to you modify that as an essence. Create you hosted in your excel spreadsheet. There are many things that you can do that. That one wouldn't necessarily suggests classic to reap depends. Sometimes it's a up you can. And you shouldn't just reminded of all customer requests that i've had that include can i can we do this. In my excel spreadsheet. Yeah listen i've had. Those ship went to an oakland. So we because somebody unplugged to the vet. Caffeine does real world situation had was responsible for in excel installation on a server. Wow because it was. There were certain things they were doing where it's like. We're going to accelerate way. Yeah and then you probably ran into the apartment. Threading problem a little app that went through and kill the orphan for copies of excel. Still running open for. We've not really talked about our outside dot iraq's we talk about him occasionally ri- as we have and certainly my advice as a sort of senior. It guy has been listen. Power apps are coming. Don't make fun of them. Don't ignore them. They're gonna make a difference in your organization is really whatever saying. What's your been your experience with the milton. well unified even take a step back from that. If you don't mind. I would say you know we talking about effectively. We told them about customizing teams. If we kinda circle back to where we start we're talking about extending its for some practical purpose to announce you'll communication collaboration and productivity. Something like that now in order to get that additional capability. The first place to start really. Isn't you know. should we bullet. It's it see what's available there but you know so. There's a tremendous store in teams as building apps with teams sort of midway through twenty nineteen. I think there were a little over one hundred apps in the stole the now comfortably of eight hundred and thirty just in the loss of your officers so the the the store is absent exploded. You know there are on the store application Interesting thing got some time. We can talk about the president of actually putting an app in the store. And going through that sewer. And we've got. We've got a couple of apps in the team store at the moment so we certainly familiar with that with that process. But you know. The quantity bar is higher. I would say we about absence. Identify get rejected. Because we went through the testing the verification max's absolutely with the the functionality gap we go to the end and they decided that one of our apps which infanticide was just a simple fun thing we kind of just giving away anyway. But they decided there wasn't sufficient business value to have that happen. This is a very interesting reason to register. The wasn't it didn't work it way you know or or was unsafe anyway insufficient value. That's your judgment. Now you compare that with the numerous fahd fs it. Existed the act consumer spending but the value proposition is so clear and vaguely noise. We're all waiting. Unresolved exactly absolutely so. It sounds latina reason. I want to test for nine hundred. Now it's here you go so i mean if we come back to the sort of the extensively version you know what i went on to talk about apps essentially you know before you build it. Look what already. Second is what i'm saying in this in this app store but if if the functionality doesn't exist it that's when you're looking at. How can we bill this. Also now you can use a native development approaches You can fire up visual studio in Xyz but power apps is obviously a key part of that infecting teams. The team space. We we would even go a step further than that so certainly i can build a power app. There's actually a power apps app in the team stole when it's built by microsoft and the the idea there is it's like a central dashboard in teams. If you're likable the power you could access to that you'd want you'd want to interact with Interesting yeah that makes a lot of sense just because they this is one of those things up Proliferates exactly exactly. But i mean i can also just take a if this is even a ballato but of a nilo power up that both in its in its native form so to speak in that into a tab and teams so i think it's common for sierra somewhere else but these templates and we were talking about for example. Some of them were pure code. Some of them will power templates. One of them was like incident response. Kind of around the time when we were deep in kobe and whatnot. It was sort of kobe. Response to your company. A lot of companies were putting like attendance registers together foods allowed in the office. You know those kind of things and some of those would take the form of power could be embedded in you know in a perspective Team something signs but interesting. I mean we talk about power s remember. Power fs is part of something greater. Cool the power family am flow good reminders to power automates and we had powell be ice and older these things in the in the family. But there's a stepchild feel like a fully-fledged member it's not so well known all well mentioned but the is a full member of that family. Which is something called power virtual now. that's the effectively. In the way that power is a is a low code no code conaway double the form of some sort power. Virtual agents is a bought building. No code low code but bowling capability as part of that power family. So you could for example be doing drag and drop bought inside of the microsoft ecosystem to plug into teams. Whatever else you might wanna plug that into. That's teams being a front incentive konaga experience. Talk so this to me strikes me as the low code way to do the bothering i get two years. The real question then is on. The hood is still the bought framework. Like i could. Yes absolutely absolutely this point over and over again with these domain experts that start getting into power platform and creating things of value that we as debs may need to take over to some degree like half to do extensive ability to. It's like we really liked what he's been built here. But it needs to do this. And this and that's kinda outta shirt for power platform. Yeah absolutely interesting. The power virtual agents under the cover use something called the bucket composer which is another product that none of these things are optional. You don't need to know all of these things Understanding the spice it's useful to know what exists the Composer is the drag and drop tool if you're familiar with power a automates and its relationship with logic absence that some of the kind of capability would metaphor the powell vigil agents. You built using this design a cold but composer but you can host and and build your apps in kind of a native hosted version of but composer if you wanted to enable us to to to do something similar outside of the power ritual agents will which has some cost associated and so it got that people are confused man like we've now fragment three totally different ways to build botts. Yeah well. let's just in the microsoft other but building technologies as well. Actually i find that it's bought craziness out there. I mean and it was ever since. I came on the scene it. Everybody wants to build a bot for what i don't know but but you know we're talking with phil hack. Your stuff made real sense to me. You know with totally break to do stuff that you would normally have to use u. y. For just make sense well in in some ways does but to be honest. Something i struggled with for thomas understanding that interaction clicking. I mean let's go back to long way really. Is the history show. let's go back to you. Know the the great eighty s cobra kai and whatnot but it was the reason we went to the wimp. Interface away from the camman because it was former route. Active to just click to radio buttons a save button then to top everything so when we when i first got sort of exposed to the idea of but's it's it's sort of rubbed me the wrong way for executive reason the interaction. I would like to or a hang on to spell pizza correctly but also back in the eighties. command line. Apps were pretty dismal in terms of you know not being able to understand everything and powershell are flip that on its head and said hey we could do a whole bunch of stuff in here. I think that's when people really got into back into command line as being something very powerful. It's the parsing isn't it certainly be productive. But it's not something. I would expose to every remobilization. Let's say it that way and then the other thing is that that interaction of message response mr response. Mission spots can can be quite quite a bit slower and a lot more airpl- Think about you know your what's up. Whatever using an oldie the fund that in hilarity that ensues with the wrecks that becomes the interesting thing so what that does is it brings us to another interesting aspect to butts in particular. Which is something called adaptive cards to call it something that you know. That's come up on the show but now it's a gain a separate technology but a key sydney for me a key piece in the bought world effectively adept of are the small composed contained. You is that you could use in various places so the little toasts in windows. Ten the some of the new believe with this micro is whatever. Those are built using the the depth of 'cause technology. If you've ever received a cot in an email for example you can interact with certain capabilities in the email. And that's using adept of cards and there are a couple other places where they surface the but framework is one of those and then as a follow on from that butts and teams are mechanism for the as. Well now when i saw that that's where butts became very exciting for me because what it meant was that there are places where takes based interaction is interesting but there are places where you know. Don't want to give the user an entire immersive app. Just want a little bit of input in an easy controlled some pool. Micromanage three drawdowns textbooks in about kind of thing so depth of cards give you that. And that's for me a huge piece of the picture that makes the interaction more feasible. Yeah it looks like encapsulation by div- tag a little bit a little bit well interesting. Rendering behind the scenes is down to the client. How teams are into the depth of congress's host israeli. That's one of the nice things is that all of that is extracted away from right. I say i wanna take spock's it's a little bit like wpf in that way. Just yeah exactly you're basically just a mocking up you'll ui and it gives you that kind of separation of code and in some ways you can add up to adapt of 'cause. I owe that good a great designer in the sample category Think wow. I've got so much to chew on here of different approaches to creating extensive ability and like and you ended with adaptive cards is like an hour here. Easy of just absolutely digging into. How do i declare describe a interface i want and then it renders debates on the device that goes to totally in the adaptive causes a comedian seven. You know they have their own monthly community coal and nut. So it's a whole thing. Important thing i learned from this discussion was that teams is not skype for business. If that's all we did you take away your golden it. So it's just so much more like if you if you're still putting in the can of this is my new voip interface. Yeah you're missing out a lot. Yup it totally mad at the same token you can also buoyed Voip apps that will participate in your meetings and you take take notes in the meetings will do any kind of voice direction inside of a meeting so hilton. what's next for you so I mean you mentioned up front. That up started this company chichester on the founder of a building. A company building apps float for the team store and that's been the big focus of last year also having a great Great tom there're. We've got all kinds of different apps. Loved people obviously to check them out and aside from that just You know blogging. Speaking got a couple of conferences remotely coming up in the near future. And i spent a lot of time on stack overflow as we mentioned too. So if teams you wanna get into microsoft's probably go to location if you get stuck with anything 'em and chances are so too will meet somewhere online if this is a topic that's interesting for someone. Oh hey so. That does remind me of one thing. You will remember that. I used to be a part cost or as well as a ship. Putt cost back in the days. Itching to get back into the podcasting world so i wanted to know if if the listeners found the show interesting and would like to hear more about me talking about teams and interviewing guests and whatnot. If they reach out they can get me on hilton at eastern dot com or any of those kind of places. And i'd love to if people find the come show with that i just want to say thanks again for me really was a great pleasure to be on the show fantastic. We'll hold and it's been great catching up with you and good stuff here. We'll see you next time on. Dot net rocks dot. Net rocks is brought to you by. Franklin's net and produced by plop studios a full-service audio video post production facilities located physically in new london connecticut. And of course. The cloud online at p. wwlp dot com visit our website at dot. Net rotc ks dot com for rss feeds downloads mobile apps comments and access to the full archives. Going back to show number one recorded in september two thousand and to make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business now. Go write some code. Cnx time s.

microsoft skype E. r Exel l grandma franklin casey college carl franklin hilton giessen bokan Richard hilton casey stephen rose jide facebook phil hack reagan Vba