16 Burst results for "lindsay ostrom"

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

05:42 min | 3 weeks ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"This is two hundred and ninety three. i'm thomas and with me as always is dr lindsay ostrom and how you doing. Lindsay wonderful couldn't be better. Excellent jammie to maskless so much today. Yeah no oh well not not in public indoor spaces. Well we'll have to talk about that because there's also a lot of stuff being written about like women don't want to give up their mass because of calling and i'm like fair enough but that's not what we're talking about today we've gotta talk about the cdc's new guidelines. Because i really wanted to get lindsay's take on the science behind this. What's going on. Because i've seen people on the left arguing about this is something that feels like a very hot button issue and it's not just okay you got trumpers and then you got people on the you know. It's not doesn't seem to be that. It doesn't seem to be science deniers verses people who like science. It seems to be then. There's good faith there's plenty of bad faith but there's there always says but there's good faith arguments on either side of the cdc announcement. And i really am interested to try to evaluate this and a fair minded way and see see if we can come to any conclusions or at least talk through the arguments. So why don't you take us through it. What happened and why okay so i. I read their Their science brief documents which was contained all the evidence and arguments and justification for this change in guidelines and this is from the beginning of of that document. So think it's worth reading this quote all right so they say While some prevention measures will continue to be necessary regardless of vaccination status fully vaccinate people without immuno-compromised and conditions that may reduce their response to vaccination may be able to engage in some activities with low or reduced risk of acquiring or transmitting covid. Nineteen the benefits of avoiding disruption such as unnecessary quarantine and social isolation may outweigh the residual risk of becoming ill with covid nineteen or transmitting the virus to others the ability of vaccinated people to gradually resume some aspects of normal life will optimize well being and may help improve vaccine acceptance. So here's my read on where they are at with the evidence about the vaccines and how this is contributing to spread. and why. I think they made this this decision and then we can go through any of the evidence. They presented a lot in this briefing launch. I wasn't sure if there's going to be in there but just say explicitly. What is the updated guidelines vaccinating. People don't have to wear. Let's be specific about it. You don't have to wear masters in case anyone's living on the moon if you're on the moon still wear your helmet i'm saying don't take that off. I think pretty nine doctor. 'cause you might catch cove if you take it off up there. It's very true it's on the moon. So what specifically what are the guideline changes so the specific guidelines was that people who are vaccinated are no longer advised That they have to wear masks in basically any public space so for doctors offices. Yeah right travel. Yeah that's right. Air travel if if they work in like I think they said like long long term care facilities and things like that and it's still advised But like going to the store going out to restaurants all that kind of stuff is sort of open and they you know they put in a some language about this being at the discretion of local vendors and things like that but the cd stance on it is that backsied people don't have to to mask in those situations or socially distance or anything like that. So i think based on my reading of this information i think that this this change in recommendations is coming out of two places one is that they feel comfortable saying that. They've accumulated enough evidence at this point in terms of the effectiveness of the vaccines As well as they have some more preliminary evidence about its effectiveness in reducing viral load and other things are important in reducing spread to others and that because the the evidence is at the place where it is with the with the vaccine they want to make a strong clear recommendation about this that communicates to people their confidence in vaccines. And also i think provides an additional incentive for people to get vaccinated because again for our moon listeners. Lots of downloads. Tough to get wifi up there. But it's tough. Yeah well i mean. We can't because we got our five g hot thing going on but yeah so for on the moon are vaccine acceptance in the. Us has not been awesome. And so i think that this is a strategy that they're that they're applying to try to persuade people get vaccinated because a while back when the vaccine i came out and people were getting. It did seem like there's a lot of really dire messaging like don't change anything you're vaccinated your life doesn't change everything and there was i think and again this is the kind of stuff i'm not going to even we're not i don't think we're here even really acknowledged talk about the anti-science cova denying sites. I'm not really talking about those people but like good faith. People are thinking look. This vaccine is incredible. The numbers are better than what we even thought it could possibly be. Why are we bombing people out by saying like. Nothing's even going to change at a time when we really need people to be excited about the vaccine and two to get it so i i see that as a very valid endeavor at least to say nothing of of how whether or not this will work..

lindsay Lindsay thomas today two places nineteen two Nineteen two hundred one nine doctor ninety three dr lindsay ostrom cove cdc g
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

05:21 min | Last month

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"Hello and welcome to serious inquiries. Only horrible edition now that. That's a lot of additions though. I'm thomas that's lynn. Dr lindsay ostrom. And of course as always how you doing lindsay awesome. I've got my cocaine t. It's like a compromise between just the cocaine and the mint tea that you have. It's it's cocaine and minty got rave reviews on the last one for actually sounding kind of mad and you know you deserve it like. I think it's partially the progress to have. Just a random person on the street her you they'd be like not very mad but like people are invested in the story of you trying to sound mad now and they're like all progress. I appreciate it all the kind words that i got about my anger. Thank you everyone. Well do we by chance. Have any more anger inducing things to talk about. No no this all the rest of the stuff we have is is really joyful so what it is. Unfortunately i don't think that's true. I think you're a liar. I think we have a the second half of that video to talk about. Not exactly chronologically but the second half of the stuff we have to talk about from the brett weinstein and hang video on his dark horse. I get it's podcast. I think but it's also youtube nowadays so yeah so where do we want to start today. Wow there's there's a lot to cover yeah and we. We mentioned the atlantic article. Last time about alex berenson. I'm gonna pull in some points on that at a couple of places. Because i think that first of all it's a great article Would they actually respond to some even stronger. Potentially more convincing claims in that article. And so i think it's a it's a really solid resource trying to combat rising hesitancy in. It's it's relevant to some of britain. Heather's claims oh and i remember night. Sorry just remembered. I wanted to start off with The new york times article and and actually now. There was an episode of the daily since we recorded talking the fact that we're not gonna reach her immunity very distressing stuff. It's incredibly important that we not have a bunch of antitax conspiracy people. It's always important and especially since this virus is going to be around. We're not going to reach herd immunity in all likelihood if it's going to continue to around it's even more important that people get vaccinated and eventually if enough people did we theoretically could get rid of it. But because we can't have nice things we live in a country where we can't have nice things and basically weinstein and hiring are contributing to that. And that's why. I think it's really important. To debunk this stuff. Yeah i wish. I so you know. I didn't realize reaching herd immunity with sort of like this time sensitive thing right and it was clear from this. That was like the longer. It's circulating the more risk. You have of mutations why it was important to get to that threshold as quickly as possible. I didn't realize that. I wish i guess hindsight's twenty twenty but i wish that had been some of the more explicit messaging when when the vaccines became available. That's a good point. Yeah i wonder if it was already too late by then. Yeah but maybe it would have been good messaging back when we were like. Hey can you kindly put a miniscule harmless piece of cloth on your stupid face assholes. Sorry i wouldn't be inch i would. I would not be good at messaging for this kind of stuff. I can't do it. Hey person who worships the sacrifices of world war two and all that constantly boomer could you put a single piece of talk over your mouth hall to save countless lives too hard. My rights my rights. I have to ask you put cloth over your genitals to protect the rest of us from them at all times. That's fine my mouth. Can't some of them do. Yeah okay enough of that nonsense. let's get started. On the debunk showy. We shall yeah. So here's here's the first point to talk about. So brett makes a claim at at least one place but i think he brings it up in a couple of places that you actually observe rises in cases following like vaccination campaigns And i think the point of this claim is to either suggests that the vaccines have lower efficacy. Then they're being claimed to have so people like get vexed relaxed their behavior and they get the virus or possibly to suggest that the vaccines may cause infections. But like that claim i think would be beyond the pale even for brennan heather right. So i'm guessing that bread is thinking something along with the first thing. I don't know though because when we get to the spike protein conversation. Yeah maybe that is what they think. Yeah but that's different from lake. Okay that causing an infection. I know that some people think you can get covid from the vaccines. But i think. I'm trying to be charitable here in britain to realize that's not possible right. So so he makes this claim he doesn't cite any specific evidence in the episode for that rise in cases following vaccination so it was hard to find anything specific. To debunk there. I mean a lot where someone makes a claim by the way someone with a bigger venue. And who's a scientist since really responsible. But they don't provide the evidence so then lindsay has to find their evidence for their stupid claim for them. And then maybe debunked that or say it doesn't exist is interesting dynamic. Yeah yeah it's it's yeah. Well yeah so. I mean the first thing that i did was just sort of like look at the new york times timeline of cases and certainly know compared with when the vaccination efforts started in like just from looking at that..

lindsay ostrom lindsay new york alex berenson Heather youtube thomas second half today brett weinstein weinstein world war two first point first thing brett first single piece of twenty twenty at least one place The new york times
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

08:07 min | Last month

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"Host of serious inquiries only That would be delightful. I am so excited. I can't even hold it in another second. We made it official. We got hit. Oh no i don't wanna get. You may not honest podcast host of me lindsay and i wanted to tell everybody that lindsay is officially on board in like a. She's hired onto the show capacity because she's so great and i love her so much and the content has been amazing. I'm so excited to have you so. I'm super excited. Yeah thanks good times. you know. it's been a little slow this month So this is the first episode a while. Sorry if you've missed us But we've got a great one for you We're still coming off the roller coaster of this week. I mean obviously with the chauvin trial and getting something resembling justice for feeling all kinds of ways about that. We'll have obviously more legal breakdown on opening arguments about that. But we've got the science breakdown over here because lindsay is going to take us through some of the science behind bias in the criminal justice system I can't wait. It's the scientific deep dive that we've come to know and love from dr lindsay ostrom and so when she get started co host. I would be delighted yet. No this this was. This was an interesting thing to prep. For because i love this stuff cover it in social site fairly regularly but there was a lot that i didn't know as well about some of these findings so i hope this will be interesting to folks. So yeah so. We're gonna be talking about racial bias and Before we get into some of these these studies i wanted to just give a quick primer on these concepts of intergroup bias and prejudice and stereotyping discrimination and how we talk about them in social psych so to start with bias general concepts if we're biased towards something that means we're partial to it in some way so by coin right lands on heads more than it lands on tales or something and in social psychology. There's a really rich literature examining intergroup bias. Which is by a stew. Some social category that someone belongs to like gender race or sexual orientation or something so intergroup. Bias is a really multifaceted. construct It can have affective components and cognitive components behavioral components so affect intergroup bias. We call prejudice and that means that we may like or dislike someone more or less on the basis their group membership. So if i really like gay men as a group i would have a prejudice favor of gay men exactly right delightful so cognitive intergroup bias That's what we call stereotypes rate. So that means that we may be more likely to hold certain generalized beliefs about members of certain groups. So if i'm a white supremacist then. I probably believed that. Black people as a group are inherently less intelligent than white people. That's a generalized belief. And you might write books about that called like the bell curve or i'm just weird examples. I don't know why would say that. And then you might have some of that book onto like defend. How obviously corrected is on your partner. That'd be another. I'm just coming up with examples. That's what i my function is here is coupled wild hypothetical examples not drawn from her life. Just making these about them off. Theoretically yeah if it was just the facts i feel like i would have a moral obligation to give a platform to somebody that. Yeah for sure. So i'm so yes so affective cognitive components and integrate behavioral and. That's what we would call discrimination. So if i were cast a cake for someone on the basis of say the fact that they're gay then. I'd be discriminating on that person on the basis of their sexual orientation so just clarifying all the different kinds of the taxonomy of how this can go which it sounds like something you have to do when you're gonna do science around a thing. He's be precise if like what are we looking at. are we looking for attitudes. That aren't really expressed. Which sounds like that has a fancy name you said already or are we looking for like attitude that actually lead to action or so. Is that what we're talking about kind of dividing out these these different components exactly right. Yeah parsing them out. And that's that's a great segue because in addition to those distinctions that i made around you know feelings. Thoughts and behavior social psychologists also make this distinction between licit and mice. Which is is exactly what you just sat essentially right. It's about well. i'll tell you what it's about. So the specifics of how people make this distinction between explicit and implicit vary a little bit A reasonable definition for our purposes is that explicit bias refers to biopsies that essentially like consciously identifiable and deliberate as opposed to implicit bias. Which will come back to in a minute. But again if i'm a white supremacist and openly report that i think poorly black people or i dislike them or i will do them harm given the chance. Or or maybe all of those things that i'm communicating explicit racial bias right Or less extreme example would be like if because my strong religious faith. I say that. I disliked the homosexual lifestyle right. I'm communicating explicit prejudice toward people but implicit bias operate more subtly and another feature of them is that they tend to operate automatically that's important feature And without intention -ality right and sometimes they can operate outside of conscious awareness. I don't particularly like calling implicit bias unconscious bias. Because i think that it gives people a false impression so like i could give the impression that like even though i feel like i love gay men. And they're my favorite that my absolute favorite in the world that secretly somewhere back in the back of my head. There's like a humongous secretly. Like not aware of that. But it's you know it's influencing my behavior when i'm not looking or something and that's that's really not The idea behind implicit bias. Anyway so some of the some of the criticisms of implicit bias research seemed to be addressing like some version of that kind of caricature. They're taking issue with the idea that we might have these lake. Secret reece's motives that were unaware of or something but in actuality i think the important important lessons from the implicit bias. Literature are about the fact that these biases can operate automatically without our consent or motivation or intention and again sometimes they're effects outside of of conscious awareness right. Okay i'm i'm i'm not entirely sure. I'm getting the distinction. Because like i could imagine you know maybe i have a You know what. I'm tired of using other groups. We'll just use white podcasters. So so i can imagine being like i love white podcasts or some of lindsay. Some of my best friends are white podcasters yet. But and i consciously think that but so maybe straw man to be like garbage. You have listen there. That secretly hates shit. Maybe do actually tank. I was gonna use this as an example. I just just prove your point. Because that is i do have that hunky. God another white polyester now but i could see it being like yes you you like this group or whatever. You're cool with this group. You have positive feelings toward this group but then you still have biopsies about their behavior in a way that you might not notice so like you you might be like there always spouting off on their pocket something something like that or pick the equivalent Stereotype for another group. So is that still. I guess i'm not seeing. What the distinction. You're making their with that. Clarification is are. Are you saying that's not what's happening or so. In the example that you just gave the right you can identify the fact that you have mixed feelings about white podcasters right and i think that i think that The way that implicit bias is sometimes represented outside of psychology is that you may have absolutely no awareness of the fact that you actually harbor these negative associations with certain groups and it nonetheless. They're going to affect your behavior. Oh that's interesting so you think there has to be some level of awareness of it. What it doesn't have to be. I just think that there well. I don't think there's evidence that they're often awareness of it. For example like a lot of people have probably heard the. I a t the implicit association task That's a popular measure of implicit bias and measures like the automatic associations between certain concepts. Honestly really see as you know as people who listen to the show and hopefully demonstrated..

lindsay first episode this week this month dr lindsay ostrom second
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

06:17 min | 2 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"We don't have enough time to go into the rapid onset senators for you. This was a purported phenomenon based on a very shoddy study. it has been edited right it. It is not. It is not clear right. So this this researcher d- did he did a study where she specifically sampled in a particular way that was likely to yield parent reports of the kind of phenomenon that she was looking for and then she reported that this was like a super prevalent thing right in like the gist of the claim is that adolescent girls are identifying as trans because they're they're looking for social acceptance in their peer groups it it is a thoroughly discredited. Study debra says that it's not that it's only being discredited because of ideology but no no. It's not. I went back and looked at the study i looked. I looked at the responses to it. It's it's thoroughly based on the methodology. Ironside note you so so that ended up being point. Three percent of people who transition like express regret or something about it. So that's that's an astonishingly low rate like. Yes we're dealing with. Human beings expected higher rate. You know like just because humans that surging. Wow yeah and it's even. It's even more sure than i would have thought cool okay. I totally agree with all of that. I mean i do want underline that this is like the percentage of people who sought surgery Do too concerned about regret right. It's not just like you know. I mean if you if you measured this in a different way like asking people if they have regrets right or or other ways than you might get a slightly higher number but like even when you do those kinds of studies. The number of people who experience regret over transitioning is very very low. Right and she's she's trying to make it seem like that's not the case but she's wrong. Imagine look what what is what is a number that would tell you that we should change our minds here like for me. It'd be like i guess above fifty percent. That would be the point where it'd be like well. This sounds a little bit. It's a coin flip. So maybe it's risky announced you know but if it's in the one percent or lower range it's you imagine having the point of view therefore that other ninety nine point seven percent should engage or to get the care that they need because that point percent. Maybe something happened or there was some. I don't know something something went wrong. I you know. I had the i had the exact same thought like. She's essentially using an impossible standard here to me. She's in medicine. Is that certain. No no and do you know what's is really really clear that gender affirmative therapy is highly effective right down. There are excellent out comes from From transitioning right based on the current protocols that's awesome. That's really good news. I'm glad that there's something positive episode. Yeah okay so like myth six is just this is this is the chapter where she's making points about how you know if we do. Gender neutral bathrooms than people are going to sexual predators are gonna explain women. Trans women shouldn't be in women's sports or house in women's prisons. Is this kind of stuff. I don't want to spend. I don't spend time on this. It's it's it's horrifying. This doesn't really invoke any kind of science There is one fund quote that you might enjoy quote lesbians by definition are not sexually attracted to people who have a penis penile vaginal intercourse is technically heterosexual. Sex which conflicts with the definition of being lesbian attempts to coerce. Lesbian women into being sexually interested in penises have rightfully been compared to conversion therapy and corrective rape. What so she's cleaning. Translate this for i. She's claiming. I guess that like the left wing agenda is to call anybody bigoted for not wanting to have sex with someone and thus they're forcing people to have sex with people i guess is that where she's got so yeah. This involves a lot of this involves a lot of figuring out what the hell she thinks that if we think that they you know like any so in her mind are people going to be made like four staff sex with transgender people. Is that part of the agenda here. Because i actually think that consent is very important and nobody should ever be forced to have sex with anybody. So that's all that particular issue. I think pretty easily. Yes yeah yeah cool. Good for us Anyway so that's that's actually the main stuff that i wanted to cover closing thoughts. The actual claims that she's making here the ideological names diamond. Doesn't i don't think we'd be spending time on this. If this was just like another ben shapiro right But as as you said at the beginning the thing that i find very disturbing and dangerous about this book is that she is uniquely well positioned to use the science very effectively. Yeah to propagate misinformation. And she's done it right. She got she got single. Boosted by by. Richard dawkins. And i find. I found the experience of reading this book horrifying from start to finish. I've been angry for a week and it's yeah it's disgusting. This this is as you said having these ideas out in the world what she is doing with. This book is actively going to harm people to the extent that parents believe this policymakers. Believe this this is actively perpetrating harm. Oh god so infuriating. You said it. I'm not going to add anything to it. I just want to say thanks lindsay for doing the careening through this piece of crap book so no Science doesn't actually back up any of these conservatives have say it never does but thanks so much lindsay. Thanks for listening everybody. Get the word out on this if you know if you see anybody using her as a reference point to Dr lindsay ostrom in here. Who is doing the hard work of showing why science doesn't actually agree with what she's saying. So a big heartfelt thanks lindsay and to the listeners and everybody and wishing all my trans listeners my my listeners who identify as anything other than what these conservatives want you to identify with we're wishing you all the health and happiness and crap like this is out there.

lindsay Richard dawkins Three percent ben shapiro one percent lindsay ostrom debra ninety nine point six seven percent one fund quote a week above fifty percent single four staff
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

09:31 min | 2 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"Hello and welcome the series inquiries. Only this is thomas. that's dr lindsay. Ostrom back at it. This is part. Two of debunking the transphobic slice of crap. That is dr. Deborah so's brooks called deeb so we're debunking of debunking. I guess because her book is the end of gender debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society. and this is a debunk. of that. Debunk it's an inappropriate. She ought inappropriately debunked bad diva. Yeah so maybe the first episode the beginning of the end of the end of gender at the end of the. Yeah yeah we are. I guess we're re bunking these myths that Is that yeah. I don't know waking him. Make sure you caught part one. If you didn't already. So i think just just in case we want to re up our content warring that we are debunking very transphobic book and so Discussions of things that are transphobic and ideas that are not valid and probably very insulting so content warning there. We are debunking this book. We're discussing the book. It's a transphobic book. I am so excited to hear. Lindsey break this down. It's so educational. It's i'm learning stuff. I didn't even know like how much the difference there was. Between this picture of scientific sex you know and what actually is is out there in the world. it's so fascinating much more fascinating than deborah. So makes it out to be or other transphobia. Make it out to be so. Let's go partout partout. Yeah yeah so in the in the last one. We talked about her first two chapters which were aimed at debunking two myths right so the myth. The first myth was that biological sex spectrum. The second myth was that gender as a social construct. And it's an hour picking up with myth three that there are more than two genders. Yeah all right. So in this chapter she is. She is tackling what she calls a myth to do with the plurality of gender identities that have been over the past few years. Because we've we've seen an explosion of language around us you know. In in recent years people are describing the way that they experienced their gender in different ways. And it's It's very interesting right. So essentially the claims in this chapter are that gender diverse individuals are either one teenagers going through a phase two people who are confused about whether it is okay to be a woman with some masculine traits or whether that means they're a different gender altogether or this one's fund Dudes trying to pick up girls. Oh wow yeah. So this is a quote. She says quote in my opinion for straight men. Identifying as queer can be a tool signaling their progressivism so that feminist women will date them. So that's cool Not dismissive at all so. Yeah that's That's that's the crux of her client. Here so you know. I just say again. Given her focus on the biological basis of gender and her acknowledgement of the variability in the processes underlying sexual differentiation hurt dismissive of variability in gender identity. Seems very very odd. That is weird. That is because you. You mentioned that last episode that she did actually run through some of the science accurately on kind of the variability there. So i guess like a razor thing might think like okay. Well if we have that variability in the science of the you know the genetics and all that stuff maybe that would lead to some variability in how gender would be expressed in humans. When you think. I mean i think it would be pretty surprising if it didn't. It would be very surprising if it didn't and so but actually she's playing another very weird language game here right. so here's here's a quote. Here's a quote. She says quote everyone to some extent is a combination of male and female traits. No one is one hundred percent male or one hundred percent female one hundred percent gender conforming right so so far. It's like okay. Well that's literally what everybody's talking about right when they say that gender is not binary when they say that there are there are more than than two genders when they say that it's better representatives the spectrum. That's what they're talking about. And so i'm like okay onerous. And then she. And then she ruins it by illustrating her point by talking about how there are some men who like talking on the phone and some women playing video games on the phone. That was what she went within the year. Twenty i guess late two thousand twenty or something or when this was put out. Yeah yeah so so to be completely fair to debra. So what she does acknowledge is that there's variability in masculine feminine traits. She just resist the idea that this legitimises the claim of people who say that they have gender identities other than man or woman so she says that there are there are men and women full stop and men and women can be more or less stereotypical and like yes. That's true but there are also people who don't identify as men or women. Yeah it's how would you prove this. You know i want to do. The big lebowski like well that's just like your opinion man like okay you say no no. It's actually just variability in kind of some of these traits that are typically gender coded and not a different gender identity. I'd be like well. I who am i gonna ask to if i have. You know. have a trans friend in my life. Move which do many am i gonna trust. Deborah chose opinion of their identity. Or should i just mainly ask them what their identity is. You know i. I think the latter might be strategy. Yeah it's canceled for saying that right you again. You're backing s. j w prison near just been sacked. Yeah i don't get where. How could she even prove that. Like what's well tell you that. Okay i'll tell you how she supports it. It's bad it's very strange to me that this would be the point that she's doubling down on laying you know so in the same discussion to she. She claims that left wing. Activists are actually the ones that are being really rigid in their definitions of what it means to be a man or a woman because they're insisting that everyone who doesn't perfectly one hundred percent fit the gender stereotypes of these categories must require completely new gender described them. Which is i want to know how she would respond. If i was like you know whatever so i think there are only men. There's only one gender and they're just people who have like more and less of the one genders traits. You know unlike some people have a little bit less of it. Some of them. There's only one sorry you you aren't a woman that doesn't exist. How would how would she respond. Well no you get the two genders. Because it's you know. They do think she would say that. It's because it's related to sex. But then they breaks down once you talk about the very ability in sex right right like it's just it's i don't know like i. I can't claim that all of her argument is like completely coherent to me. Well i cussed. She's smuggling in some assumptions. That are getting mulch. Truly conservative assumptions about gender. And that's the places where it seems to me. The places where she has to do this kind of just insistence like no. It's actually not that you're transgender. You just you know. Have a little bit of more of these traits that whatever the only way she could support that is by insisting upon it. There's no proof of that that you could really have. I mean is essentially just saying you must identify how i want you to identify. Not how you want to identify. I don't know what else it comes down to write. I think there's also an implication here that i don't now that like i isn't real or something You know because. I mean i don't know like she's she's fully willing to admit that again. That are differences in how stereotypically feminine or masculine men and women are right but then for some reason she's just not willing to extend that claim to gender identity itself right. Yeah that's interesting. I don't i. It's very strange to me. Oh in one way that she makes this point. This is fun. Is that so deborah. So describes herself as a highly masculine woman to credential making the claims that she is so she says that even though she she she appears very highly feminine that she is highly masculine and then she's like but i understand that i'm still a woman and thus good for you. Yeah for you all right okay. So she all. She also criticizes the idea. That gender is a spectrum right and says that it's absurdly inconsistent with the scientific consensus to say that there are an equal number of people at at each point along that spectrum. And she yes i know and she's right. That would be absurd and nobody is saying that. I think that a good analogy here is to consider personality traits right so like extroversion. For instance extroversion is a continuous bipolar trait. And there are people who are extremely low on the trait. We call them. Introverts and there are people who were very high on the trait we call extroverts and when you look at large samples of individuals their scores on extroversion form a normal distribution..

Lindsey thomas Deborah deborah first two chapters one hundred percent first Twenty debra second one gender two genders first episode more than two genders two thousand two myths two people one way each point three
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

07:42 min | 3 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"L. o. And lock them to series inquiries only. I'm so excited about today's show. I've got two guests one of them. You already know. It's dr lindsay. Ostrom associate professor of psychology at roanoke college but also lindsay brings a friend. Dr brian gentry. Who's a physics professor at hollins university. Because they are starting a show together. They've got a podcast called. What the fuck f. u. p and that stands for fucked up paradigm and it's all about pseudoscience and kind of how misunderstandings of science get weaponized and maybe sold and all that kind of stuff. It's right up my alley. I can't wait to talk to them. we're gonna talk about quantum physics because of course dr gentry is a physicist and knows all about that and how weird it is but also how much everybody gets it wrong and we all watched just for fun illustrate the point. We watch that show that. I guess you could call it a documentary. What the bleep do we know just to have a bit of a laugh at at that and maybe breakdown how wrong it is. And it's it's. I don't movies a bit dated but this this stuff still goes on now even today and It's it's embarrassing. How bad it is and brian. And lindsey are here to help illustrate that and explain what the actual sciences so. I can't wait. Let's get over to that interview Lindsay and brian. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. Hi hi thanks for having us I'm excited i. I don't know if this was required reading but lindsay had me watch this. What the bleep do we know. So i'm mad about that brian. Sipe blame you personally for that you can you can that i've ever seen but i'm getting ahead of myself. Why don't we talk about your new show. My background is a physicist of course makes me particularly irritated at certain aspects. Both of this movie. What awful movie. What the bleep. But also i decided to take a around on the internet as we often do and i came across some stuff called quantum healing and it turns out if this is a huge business right now i believe the term initially is due to deepak chopra who published a book under that name but there are lots and lots of websites. Lots and lots of people offering all kinds of so-called quantum healing modalities. There's the quantum healing hypnosis stuff which is and has got trademark are whatever it's that's about past life. Regression beyond quantum healing matrix energetics quantum touch and just on and on so it seems to be business. Yeah because it's way better than newtonian healing. Which is like involves ball bearings cannons and stuff. So it's interesting that you bring that up. Because one of the things on one of the websites the first website i looked at said that allopathic medicine is based on a newtonian view of physics and is therefore linear and deterministic leaner. Yeah and so disney because my background is actually a non linear dynamics and this has nothing to do with non linear. Yeah say like so like in what sense is had they never. I'm pretty sure they knew. What like exponential you know curves were even before quantum physics. I don't i don't know what it was. The linear era. You have to do with anything. It seems weird. I have no idea that was my reaction to most of this movie. Which is what. I just literally. What are you even talking about like. I want to take the opportunity here to give just like the best life advice that i could ever give anybody. Well okay. people like me. Who have to watch really bad crap. All the time in turns out you're gonna kick yourself lindsay. This is this is gonna be very useful at maybe for both of you for your show turns out. There's a chrome plug in that you can install so that you can watch videos at higher speeds any video. I know it's the. I can't believe i didn't know about until now i've had to watch so many bad things that this would have been great for but sometimes it's on youtube. You know i can do it anyway but like this'll even do it for anything for like amazon for whatever so just google that. I don't know what it's called. But google chrome plug in video faster. Something just say you guys so much. Time told me that twice regulars. God i watched it once at one. Point seven speed. So you think of like a fractionally physicist brian. What's the mathematically. How much time did i just save over lindsay. I'm not sure actually. You probably didn't save any because you probably got sucked into a wormhole or something back to a past life. And then you had to relive it all again so you look at. What the bleep. As i don't know if you've done a full taxonomy of this nonsense like a bullshit taxonomy but that'd be interesting but it is. What the bleep. Kind of the the origin story for a lot of this. Or what do you think. I think probably predated that. But that's what really got it into the public discourse but brought it to a lot of people's attention it was what two thousand four two thousand five minute came out so that was really of course that kind of stuff had been going on before that but this really amplified it. I would say so. Brought it to a lot of people's attention so i guess if you're starting from zero on this as a listener. What is quantum healing allegedly and does it cure corona virus. Will it work for that We'll we'll come to that one at the end. Maybe but there's a couple of issues right off the bat with with quantum healing and the stuff that's talked about. In what the bleep. And the i. I would say. Is that posits dual ism right so philosophically philosophical dulas dulas and and this is a statement that says you know that both the physical and the material and the non-physical and non material things exist right so spirit and being right and this is sort of an important distinction to make because they bring this in later to claim that quantum physics somehow is non-physical which is a very bizarre claim And the other thing is because these things are non physical and non material they can exist outside of time which means we can change the past so something that goes against all of physics and perhaps science. So that's one problem. Just one little problem and the other one is that they also claim that consciousness affects the quantum world. so that's an additional claim right. So we've got this thing called consciousness that they have some ideas about which i would imagine lindsay and a lot of other people would have some serious problems with surprisingly enough. Yeah yeah i'm not. I'm not surprised. And this thing that they're calling. Consciousness actually can go in and affect the quantum world they call it downward causality so we are consciously engaging with things at the quantum level in order to manifest these possibilities that we want. We want to be free of some disease or you know. Have trump out of office or have singlehandedly disproved. That whole thing..

Lindsay amazon two thousand brian gentry youtube google lindsey Both hollins university deepak chopra brian both two guests one problem trump today first website Ostrom lindsay one little problem
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

07:38 min | 3 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"The abuses that were that were uncovered were being perpetrated by by these therapists and i find them horrific. Yeah like i talked about that for a moment. I don't know if we we address that you know maybe enough on the last episode yet. The this This this therapy kind of spread in the eighties. So i'm not saying that every therapist was doing this intentionally but like the police that it started right was like you know christian sort of fundamentalist groups that were on a witch hunt right. Mrs happened tons of times throughout history. Like almost a literal which. Yeah i mean pretty much right and And yeah there were a few the few bad actors at the beginning of this. That just did did horrible things like There was one. There was a social worker. That like just did these. These terrible terrible leading interrogation with preschoolers. I believe as and essentially like rewarded them for answers that confirmed that yes they had been sexually abused and sort of. You know punished answers that suggested they hadn't and wallah they found You know they got. They got sort of emissions from these kids. They'd been sexually abused. Of course they did not is horribly abusive like yes. Yeah so yeah. So what was uncovered in. The eighties was horrible abuse by the people who planted these memories. It's terrible and it's very much worth and that's why in all this stuff there obviously things we can't answer things we can say as kind of the theme of this part of the the episode is. That's abusive awful bullshit and also that probably should have been accounted for somewhere in this cut article you know account for that a little bit and account for the harms there and at least explained that while there may be who knows about this family tragedy and by all means that the allegations should get their their time in publication and people can evaluate them. How they think. But to distill that entire side like the anti repressed memory side the phrase institution they started to distill that down to they tried to protect protect abusers is that was just really gross unlike accurate and regardless of regardless of where you come down on some of the stuff that i think we can unequivocally say i mean there was horrific abused by these therapist as you're saying and It was important to fight back against that. Yeah yeah and also at the same time child abuse actually exists and is awful incompatible. They've right of course Really interesting wow. What a what a cheese. What a topic. That's just there's so many layers to this. I did wanna read. Unless is there anything else you wanna talk about along those lines. I had a couple more comments about this. That i guess i could. I could read while we're kind of in a listener response section here. Yeah well danielle said. I don't totally buy into the recovered memory stuff but i'm on the autism spectrum and i have alexa thi- mea. I don't know what that is. I'm not sure if you're familiar but says which means i have trouble identifying and processing emotions. If i'm in a stressful situation. I will literally tend to forget the entire thing. This is super frustrating and arguments with my husband. For example i can remember. We had an argument. But i'll forget all the details. It leads to really dumb work arounds. Like taking notes in the middle of an argument. So i can record the resolution and know what we'd agreed on also completely forget trauma or stressful events but the memories will be foggy. If another witness reminds me of the event. I guess my brain just likes to remove everything negative from memories. Wow how fascinating is that Alexa thiamine anything. You've you've heard of before. I know that word but i don't yet know that's not an accessible to me. Would that is so that. That is really interesting though. Imagine you know you. Just you said at the top of the show that you're a rigorous documenter. Do you ever take notes during an argument or no okay. I want to be right there in the moment. Yeah you really want to have that argument. But that's that's a. That's a really interesting way to deal with that though. And i can imagine like if you had an argument and you couldn't remember the results like that would be really frustrating. So it's like let me turn on my tape recorder. If we're going to have an argument here that'd be an interesting conversation. But i feel like it'd be worth like i i feel like if if lydia had that for example i be like i'd be kind of an asshole if i wasn't like yeah. Okay fine let's take notes here so that we both remain you know. Let's let's work through that interesting. Well i just want to read that comment. I thought it was fascinating and we got so many good emails and messages about that episode and again many thanks to carry for coming on talking about that and thanks to dr lindsay ostrom for coming on and breaking down the scientific claims kind of on the other side of that really interesting. Who knows. maybe we do more on this. What are you what do you think. Maybe maybe yeah. There's down this rabbit hole. So i want to know more because it does seem like the the the holy grail for that theory would be you find. I know studies have to be done certainly and all that but it. Ideally you would wanna find somebody who had had been abused not remembered it but then some sort of documentary evidence or something came up later on that confirmed it and then they were able to remember right like wouldn't that be kind of what you're hoping for. I guess just the odds of that. Are you know they're not zero. But like they're going to be hard to find that person. I guess yeah i think so. Well interesting because i i gotta say like i'm a little like one hundred percent convinced by the these people couldn't focus so much on a strip test that what it was. Yeah that's not the only research great lakes so it's but it's it's that kind of stuff from what i can tell. She's looking at disruptions in these very basic cognitive tasks. I remembered where i read about that stroup test before which 'cause that's the one where it's like because your mind because we're so primed on reading words. We cannot help his involuntary that we recognize the the written word blue even if the the color is red. Right isn't that and so apparently they could. You could use that to to figure out if there's like a spy who secretly spoke russian or something because if you write in russian the russian words for the colors Someone who didn't speak russian can just go out. Blue red bet they can just look at the color of the taxed and easily say it inhibited. Yeah but because it's like involuntary to read the words. I if you know the language You know it's very evident taking the time to read. It's really i. i read that somewhere. Yeah i. I can't say that i've got one hundred percent source that or anything but i did read that somewhere and i thought it was interesting. So that's where. I remembered that i remember where where i had read about that test before. Cool all right. Well thanks for coming on as always and we've got a lot more topics and cool project in the works that i hope we can tell people about somewhat soon but lindsay. Thanks as always end everybody. Check us out on twitch on the regular we have a lot of fun there twitch dot tv slash s are s any s. That's where he can find us hanging out talking about weird animal reproduction sometimes but not always hashtag spider. Dick's that kind of thing. This was fun. Thanks so much. Thank you for.

danielle russian lindsay ostrom twitch eighties one hundred percent Alexa both one lydia lindsay twitch dot tv christian zero Dick tons of times couple more comments
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

05:47 min | 3 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"O. unwelcome to series inquiries. Only this two hundred and eighty. I'm thomas that's dr lindsay ostermann. Look i again. I've delivered babies. I don't know of yeah true. It was one time college deliver baby college. Yeah no i want to Say that though because we got a question this was one that we answered on the stream and apologies to the emailer. Because once i'm mark off that. I did something i have no way of finding it in my ten thousand million emails policies for that but someone sent a very thoughtful email about mentioning using dr lindsay ostermann. And it's absolutely valid. I introduced you that way when we first started recording than i think you know you and i both kind of think of these. Things is an ongoing series. You know and so then. Sometimes we just go lindsay's back but i think it's very important because lot of people don't listen to every episode a lot of people. Just check in here and there and i think it's important to do that introduction each and every time so i will remember to do that. I think those are great email and What do you. What do you think doc. That sounds lovely. I'm totally open to that. And that that email was also cool because he mentioned the response we did about the dunning kruger effects and he is if if people want to hear more about that than like go watch the video of that stream because it was like yeah. I really appreciate it. Sorry that that kind of loss in that weird shuffle. I tried to do but anyway. We're here to talk Do a follow up the repressed memory thing. There's there's some interesting stuff to talk about regarding the science of that. I hadn't really intended to have carry on to delve to into the science. We need just covered a little bit. But i'm more wanted to hear about carries experience in her interest and she explained the science pretty well but turns out there. There are lots of interesting questions there. We had a number of emails and messages and our own dr lindsay ostrom and has looked into it. And i'm excited to talk about it. Yeah yeah no. This has been a fascinating journey. I'd say i'm still on this journey. So i'm going to fill you in on where i am so far but i actually don't know at this point what i think about this topic and i wasn't expecting that so Yeah a couple of people reached out to you and made sort of offered a similar kind of pushback right so i thought that kerry did a fantastic job in the last episode. Everything she talked about is consistent with what i know about what happened in the eighties and this this horrible thing that came out of a paramedic she did a whole thing on hair metal and all that was very well done. You agree with that. I did kind of bullshit music. Don't let me say that. I will be fired from opening arguments panic panic and all that yeah right. Yeah yeah exactly like there were there. Were some really horrific things that were uncovered there about memories being planted. And so what. I'm not going to do is say that any of that is wrong. Because and elizabeth loftus work that you guys you guys talked about was super important in of demonstrating proof of concept about how those memories can get implanted in as it turns out. Memories are a lot more malleable than we think they are. And that's an important thing for everybody to know but so at least three people so ruth frank and we failed to find the third person who wrote in with my fault but they all said like great episode but also there actually is this this account of how memory repression actually could be possible and it seems to be grounded in evolutionary theory and so like upon reading these the first time i was like wow okay so i've never heard of that and i was a little bit resistant to it. Honestly from the sort of the broad strokes description of it but it seemed worth reading about. And it's very distinct from the the freudian account. So like i wanna call this against bill. Say freud sucks. Oh of course and by that. Okay well actually. I want to push back on that. Because i love freud but only in the way that i love you know a lot of fiction. Writers like none of that stuff. Yeah so so freight aside. I want to call this something else because this is this is very much. Not the freudian idea of repressions if they just to recap that like freud's idea was that we have the sort of like humongous and our minds trying to protect us from painful experiences and there is no support for that as you know i think kerry made the the case for and trying to figure out what to name a monkey. Lesotho jazz already. Like gosh i gotta figure that out but now okay so no among lous. I'm not it's just me and here. Okay that's good and bad. can i borrow a monkey. This is there any way to get a humongous attachment. Or have we not okay. Nevermind move for another show. Now if you figure that out please let me know enough one of those like personal assistant in your brain. That of shuffles files around. That would be nice like you don't need to think about this. Mr smith said this reprint trauma you had earlier in your life. Let's just move that aside. You know file it away. I'll handle that. That'd be nice okay. But not that now. Unfortunately not that because that would be really fun. I would like that a lot. No it's a little bit different and actually so parts of this are are pretty much consistent with what. I thought. I was going to be saying and doing this. Follow up He here's where we were gonna go. I thought that i was gonna come on and say like carries right about everything but this pushback that you're getting is is also sort of coming from a real place. There's a there's a really big difference between forgetting and repressing. yeah right. Yeah and the freudian repression makes this very weird case..

lindsay thomas lindsay ostrom ten thousand million emails smith elizabeth kerry eighties both first third person three people first time one time dr lindsay ostermann each ruth frank one two hundred and eighty every episode
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Opening Arguments

Opening Arguments

06:48 min | 4 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Opening Arguments

"Arguments. This is episode four hundred and sixty one hundred better than anderson cooper. You know he's got that show. We go the full or sixty which is on hard to precisely do but we do long board. I can pull a wicked for sixty. Let me tell you. An aerial double stop pipe for sixty percent better. I try to work out the fraction. It's like thirty three percents up anyway. Thirty percent better. I am so excited for today's episode. I'm thomas that's andrew. How're you doing andrew. I am fantastic. Thomas how're you great. I am so excited to cover the you've done the deepest of deep dives on something that i'm sure air. I'll just tease it right now. I'm sure a lot of you if you've interacted with people on the right at all you've heard this claim about because they're still trying to pretend that the election was stolen that whatever you know in the claim is will not a single one of the You know however may eighty court cases are about election. Fraud were allowed to show evidence. They all dismissed on standing which you know you even here. People like otherwise would have been serious people back in. I don't know the nineties before the report. Otherwise people saying that's just a way for a judge to say. I don't even wanna look at it and so it's so frustrating because we and by we i mean andrew worked so hard on the show to make sure these things are explained and and deep dives or deepened. And you know that we've done and so to have all of the work that andrews done breaking these cases down be summarized as just dismissed on standing. They never got to look at it. So that's that does it. We're putting our foot down here on thomas and andrew four sixty. We are breaking down why this is such a bogus claim. And if you have anybody out there making that claim that all that they never really looked at the evidence they're all dismissed understanding. Send them to the show for the breakdown. Because we've had it with that claim. Yeah i really really think that if if you have an uncle frank and you've been waiting for the opportunity to walk him step by step through the people you're retweeting are lying to you This is this is a really good opportunity. There's a with a number of great gotcha so So stay tuned for that all right. Hey before we do that. What's going on over on. I'll forty five this week yet So thomas we agreed show We had Journalists david rothkopf on and we were talking about unity versus accountability kind of a common theme And little little bit of a follow up to samoa. Stuff on pardons tune in. I will tell you the thing that our listeners will find. Most shocking is that Ag attempts to do a lightning round in the c segment. and you. Can you can tune in and see how that goes. i wish i am employment. We're gonna. I'm gonna have to talk a g because she did seem to have a method of getting stay a little quicker than than my method so we might have to compare notes. I don't know if there's a shock collar involved or i don't know what's going on over there at home. What's what's up with the latest. Sim well my podcast. series inquiries. only. I just had a lindsay ostrom and onto explain. There was a an article that made the rounds. That the done in kruger effect might not be real and it might actually be likely data artifact or something that you would expect with just random data And there's a kind of made the rounds on our on our scienc- circles on twitter and and so forth. And so i was genuinely agnostic about the question and i was curious about it so i had serious inquiries only science planner lindsay on to To do the deep dive on it. So if you wanna know if that's really a real effect or else if it's just a Data artifact go out serious inquiries. Only i've re i really really what else. Yeah my lips are sealed. I was going to say. I was gonna call for an edit point but i guess i guess not. That's not going to happen. And one more quick announcement andrew. We have our monthly patriae on. Qna coming up. And that's going to be on tuesday the second of february and that's at three my time six east so three pacific six. Pm eastern That's always a lot of fun as a reminder only patrons get to ask questions for this one but everybody can come watch on youtube. Everybody can come in. We interact with chat on youtube. It's all kinds of fun. So coming out Ask questions But again on that patriot thread on patriot dot com slash law. Which andrew will post. That's where you can ask questions. You can heart the questions that you want to hear answered and that actually helps me a lot as i'm going through to pick the questions to to see to kind of gauge the level of interest. So make sure you do that patrons and do you have a good chance of getting question answered if you ask it and if you vote on their so once again we'll see you go to our youtube channel opening arguments and you'll get a notification when we go live and all that that is once again february second tuesday at three. Pm pacific six pm eastern very excited about that one and one last thing i just wanna talk to our listeners from it In connection with the game stop we. We have run ads for robin hood We we we may have had one schedule for the coming weeks and have pulled that were not going to be running that ad until we figure out right like that's not it is not to say that We have definitely prejudged that that something's going on has said. Hey i just wanna you know. I want more information. I want to figure out why it looks like robin hood is allowing hedge funds to trade game stop but not allowing their individual investors. Who are now you know. Maybe stuck with something. That's you know in a bubble in their portfolio. And if that's the case you know will will will take stand on that we do. Try very hard For a ethical monitoring of our ads over here at at opening argument so we're aware that we looked at it and and we. We may on shane. We hit pause on that. That's the right way to say that. And and as always if he wants to show ad free or you know you want to express your gratitude for that patriotic dot com slash law. You get the show totally ad free for for literally one american dollar so hard to.

Thirty percent Thomas sixty percent anderson cooper tuesday today david rothkopf thomas twitter youtube andrew frank eighty court cases thirty three andrews andrew four sixty dot com single february second samoa
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

06:02 min | 6 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"Aloen welcome to episode two hundred sixty eight. I'm thomas and as you can hear a have cold sorry about that and that is lindsay ostrom and how you doing lindsay awesome like really. I don't have a cold or a relative Also i'm awesome because we had such good time on the stream Last night that was a ton of fun once find. yeah just to let my yeah. Yeah we were on my twitch stream twitch dot tv slash serious pod I was trying to be battle. Towed spoiler i have not advanced past the ice level. It's impossible but anyway during that time we also took questions from listeners and geez we talked about a lot of stuff lindsay. Those for we. You got a good Kin selection versus group selection question. You broke that down force a bit and then eventually turned into a comedy show up so that also happened but but anyway next time make sure to common hanging out live and ask questions and interact with so much fun. I can't wait until we do it again. Me too all right. Well having said that everyone go check it out. Twitch dot tv. So serious bought. so i should Let everybody know that for opening arguments. Were doing a fundraiser. It's like the last the last chance to swing things in georgia. It's sunday december twentieth from four to seven eastern. Or one to. You know four. My time was which is exactly when the kids are napping. So i'm just are supposed to be napping letting you know that i'm sacrificing a lot. We all make sacrifices. I'm sacrificing my kids. Naptime to this livestream so come and join us for this. Livestream is going to be so much fun. it's got It's got of course opening arguments. getting rawson carey on the livestream Muller she wrote ice cream. Social legal eagle devon stone and of course the crew from puzzling to thunderstorm. So that's a killer lineup. And it's all to raise money for the georgia senate races so make sure to come join us on sunday. It's exciting. I'll be nice Okay so today's episode I by way of introduction We've done a few on this before but that was a hundred years ago so just pretend that we've gotten some comments here and there Since lindsay started coming on the show more often which is which are about yvo psych as a field. Because at that tends to be your your especially where you're coming from. And i think people have gotten the impression there have been various critics of evil psych. That you know have made the rounds especially among the skeptic circles and i think some people have been left with the impression that yvo psych is kind of a problematic field or that. It's all just so stories to justify sexism are there are a lot of Negative claims about the field. So we thought it'd be a good idea for Maybe lindsay to come clarify that conversation for so. Why don't you go ahead and start off. How do you. How do you respond to Those kind of claims. I think it's a problematic field And but i do understand where the intuitions come from Actually i think i've developed more and more sympathy for where people are coming from with objections over time Because i've seen more of the problems. People are talking about. They're not coming from within the field. I think is going to be my main mature and also. I don't want people to forget that we did those episodes a million years ago. Don't forget that did them. But just pretend we don't. It's been a long for years or whatever pretend we don't remember the content of them very well. I don't want them forget. Forget that either. I went back and re listen to them. Because i didn't want it to be redundant and like i was. I was wondering how well they would stand up. Because i know that you know my views on these things and my attitudes have changed so much show but i think they stand up And i think it's really really good stuff and it's it's not going to be the same kinds of things that we talk about today so So yeah i think if people are interested in this the that's good listening so that was back when the show was atheist ikley speaking and the episodes were to sixty five to sixty six anyway. Okay so i just want to start off with a basic definition is evolutionary psychology and And then i'm gonna get into some common objections. That i hear and the claims that i would wanna make to to respond to those objections. So evolutionary psychology applies evolutionary theory to the study of the human mind and behavior and so the assumptions of the field are that the human species was shaped by natural selection This does not tend to be the premise. That skeptics are skeptical of the second assumption. Is that our brain minds. We're also shaped by natural selection. I don't think that's a huge leap right. And finally that the mind can be understood as an integrated network of cognitive modules which are like these information processing units that were shaped help our ancestors solve specific problems of survival and reproduction. So i mean so far. I think that all sounds great right. I don't think there's anything objectionable about the the assumptions of the field. So you know. Where does this intuition come from about. Evolution psychology being garbage. Because as you mentioned like it is a very widespread belief and i think it's it's a widespread belief among people who otherwise accept evolutionary biology and nonetheless believed that the way that it's being applied to to humans is or might be garbage so i thoroughly get rightly it. Let me know your opinion on this. I think it's likely come from Like feminist debates because and i'm not blaming feminists. I'm saying like within debates about like oh gender roles you know. There are people who have rigid views of gender roles and then often those people you use yvo psych or those kinds of arguments or evolution to justify those rigid gender views and than feminists will respond like. You're that that's not valid. And so i suppose Maybe what you said earlier about how. It's coming from outside the field. Maybe the problem isn't with yvo site but.

lindsay yvo psych lindsay ostrom rawson carey georgia Muller thomas senate yvo
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

07:20 min | 7 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"Welcome to serious inquiries. Only this is episode. Two hundred and sixty six. I'm thomas and back with me is lindsay ostrom and hide it really really good. Yeah everything in. My house is nice. That's all i know about. But i know we. You know that question should be stricken from the record in twenty twenty degrees. Every podcast has to do it. But i should just say salutations has great. You are on the show neutral statements. Okay actually accurate. So how do we explain what we're trying to do here. Well as i said. Back when lindsey. I started coming on the show. Well not i. I but started coming on the show. I dunno months ago. Now we had so many things we wanted to talk about So many ways. That i think her scientific expertise could could really help us breaks and things down and this is one of those things many listeners to the show likely used to be or maybe even still our listeners. To the sam harris podcast he used to be a big influence on me back down eight years ago six years ago until in my opinion he kinda lost it if you heard that episode where he tried to do it's called canley pull back from the brink and it was gonna save my thoughts on overall but the point is within an episode. And it's not just. This isn't just a reply. to sam harris. Because within the conservative kind of ecosystem there was a response to the george floyd protests to the black lives matter protests. That i know we're all we've all aged seventy years in the last year but do you remember when we had only aged about thirty five years in the last year in june. When we were all. I don't know in our late. Seventies that that those protests obviously we're huge deal and i in fact side note even set at the time. There's no way we're going to be able to maintain all this energy long enough to actually drive the reform that we need and it's not any of ours. There's too many things so anyway. Get uncovering all this. Onion layer of things here. There is some research that sam harris those people coming from kind of there are many people who are very anti black lives matter and one of the things that gets cited some of the stuff that gets cited Is this research that you've looked into. That has the maybe surprising conclusion. That wouldn't you know it. Actually black people aren't killed by police officers as much or when you adjust for certain variable so yes lindsay is here to maybe Tell us why those aren't accurate. Yeah because one thing that everybody agrees on regardless of you know whether in the they're in the same campus. Sam harris or support black lives matter. Everybody agrees that black people as a function of the population in the us are killed disproportionately by police officers. That's not something that anybody disagrees on But the issue that has come up in the way that The people the researchers that we're gonna be talking about today make this claim is that population isn't the appropriate benchmark. Be judging whether there's disproportionality disproportionality and how often black versus white people are being killed by police. It's a sam. Harris has talked about this and candace. Owens has talked about this ton of people of trotted out Findings from these articles that we're gonna be talking about today to support that claim in. It sounds very convincing. If you don't know what's wrong with the math that they did right. So that's the talking point. You hear a ton from a lot of anti conservative. Anti black lives matter people. it's while look sure. There may be disproportionate killings or whatever rest everyone say but black people responsible for x amount of the crime so therefore so that's how the claim goes every time. I wanna do a side note for the process of researching this. We both had to listen to a bunch of sam harris. I didn't. I don't want this to be a replying to sam hairs episode. However i have pages of notes replying to sam harris because it was so frustrating to listen to that. So what we're going to do is after this will do a like a patron only bonus episode where we more specifically address those sam harris. But this we're kind of hoping it'd just be more. You know not directly in response to him but responding to some of these claims because they're being made everywhere i mean. This is a fox news claim to this is this is a broad problem when it comes to The disagreements on police reform. Yeah exactly and and i really you know. I think it's important to be able to say in response to those things than just like well. That's probably not true like that. Sounds wrong Because it does sound wrong but But yeah. I think it's important to dig into so these these papers have been critiqued on very technical ways and so i think you're going to have to keep me honest here in terms. I'll try. yeah how clear. It is but But i think this'll be. I really hope this will be helpful for people all right. So yeah so. We're gonna talk about the claims of to vary widely cited studies that examine some version of these claims about. How actually you know black. People are not killed by police at higher rates and and if anything that white people were killed higher rates by police so the first article is by johnson trespass taylor and cesario it was published in twenty nine thousand. Nine hundred and the title. Here is officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer involved shootings. It was cited forty five times. And it's only. It was only out for like a year before it was retracted. So that's a lot. That's retracted. Everybody you'd sky. I wasn't sure when you were gonna say that. Yeah that's a big deal that may be if people are still referencing. This retracted paper. That's indeed a problem Yeah so it was. It was cited forty five times alone just in the academic literature. That's that's massive for for only being out for year right But in the popular press this has been cited a ton right at personalities and things. Talk about this all the time that well side note this is what is so weird in kind of doing the thing we do. Here on a podcast. If you're on the left which is the right has this ecosystem that's very. I don't know what to say like centralized or something once they get on a thing once they're like. Oh this paper shows this. They all do it like they instantly all adopt that thing and so it goes from you know this obscure academic papers possibly to all. My god is being cited everywhere all the time. It's very weird. Yeah it is. It is and yeah. It's a problem. Yeah so this is one of the ones. That harris referenced explicitly in episode. Can we pull back from the brink And it's been criticized on at least two grounds and those are the two. We're gonna those to critiques. We're gonna talk about today. So the first. The most widely cited claim here that i want to criticize. Is that In this paper. They claimed that they found no evidence of anti black anti hispanic bias in fatal officer involved shootings and they claim that they found that white officers. Were not more likely to shoot minorities than non white officers to officer race to predict the race.

sam harris officer lindsay ostrom george floyd us lindsey Owens johnson
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

06:44 min | 8 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"Hello and welcome to serious inquiries. Only this episode two, hundred and fifty six, I'm Thomas and if I sound weird that's because I am recording after the debate at a watch the debate of course Kamala Harris and her Mike Pence. Spot. Dead Running Corpse Mike. Pence it was I. I also went on cognitive dissonance and did a little livestream with them go find that at finding you tubes everywhere. Just Google it was. It was really funny. It's really fun and all that is to say, I didn't realize I would have to record this bumper in the kids are asleep and I can't go up in the studio. So I know I sound a little weird but that's okay. The main episode was recorded at a different time. Don't worry and speaking up tonight today whenever he listening this, I have a conversation with Lindsay Ostermann on cults what draws people call the keep people in Colts and it does center. Around the HBO show the vow, which is about a nexium cult. I have a ton of thoughts. And as always I've got thoughts and Lindsay's got science hopefully, it's a good combination. So this is part one. There's actually a part to I'll tell you more about that after the conversation, but here we go. Here's part one with Lindsay Ostrom. I'm joined again by Lindsay Ostrom and how you doing Lindsey doing well, happy to be here. It's hard to believe it's already been two years. It may have been like my brain I split second was like Jesus did we go to here's I? Think we had that that much news. I never, and then somehow Eli Bosnia's baby is only three and a half three months or something because i. we were texting the other Dan I was like, well, surely, your baby's gotta be in highschool by now with how long. The. You know the pandemic takes and he's like now three months with three months. So both I'm sure we're all having this mental process where it's a both no time has passed and infinite time has passed depending on what thing you're thinking of it's weird. Is Constructing and expanding all the time notice that it's probably a quantum thing. Hey sneaking up. That's a great transition. Lindsay and I've been talking a lot and there are just so many topics that I think your expertise Lindsay is going to make really interesting to explore. Because I'm just dude but. You're like a learning science, psychology person and. and. I think that's what it says on your. You know various diplomas of imagining learning science psychology person since my email signature. and. One of those things we've been talking about lately I. Think I think there's there's a lot of good stuff to talk about we're excited to do some more episodes. But one thing we've both been very interested in lately is this series on Hbo that I think is four episodes in I'm all caught up. But don't worry this won't be something that you will have had to see although we highly recommend it but it's about this cult called nexium but it's spelled all stupid because it's which is weird because nexium is of what does that a heartburn pill? There's already a thing called. Super Confusing when I first heard the name of cult I was like, wait a guy who made the heartburn medication yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we've been watching this. It's called the vow on HBO IF YOU WANNA check it out I. Recommend you do so you know we're going to be talking about it, but I was very curious about cults and the psychology behind how that works and there are so many observations that I have that I'm curious. Maybe you'll be able to you know put give us the scientific explanation of and that kind of thing. But also there are a lot of these days. It's not just particular to the nexium called. There's this little cult called trumpism and. Hugh and on. So never heard. Yeah. So all kinds of stuff to talk about How do we get going? Well, how would you recommend I mean we can talk about specifically nexium want to give the listeners a brief summary maybe. We'll try to avoid some spoilers, but it's got a weird when you're like, no spoilers on real life it's kind of. Yeah I. Think it's going to be hard to to avoid spoilers right 'cause. Yeah. Yes. So nexium is like this Kurd creation of of neary who is a self professed genius and what is the art that he's so proud of Oh I 'cause I'm so into the volleyball, he's really into volleyball. So that's That's all I remember now was he doing a martial art? He. He was like he brags about the fact that he's like a black belt in judo. Okay. Sure. Way Too proud that he became a black belt in judo when he was a kid, he absolutely looks like the kind of guy just stereotyping he looks like a black belt in June. I Don I don't know what it is. It's all these ways that he like he overcompensate and he's overcompensated into a cult, which is something I'm very curious about. It right off the Bat I have to ask you this is like my first question. What percentage of cults are just some guy named Keith? Who wants to have sex with you like is that ninety eight percent of them? All of the Yeah, it's hard to bring to mind a cult. It's not also a sex cult. Yeah. I'll say this member. Bhagwan did you watch that one? Oh, yeah. Wild country seed that one is interesting because I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Probably the bad ones having sex with women or whatever. But like totally, there was also Sheila. and. She like China took over day to day cult operations and that that was. So that's one example I can think of but like so it can't be coincidence unless these are the only ones that get coverage like many of these cults are about a dude wanting to have sex with women AM I. I mean Jim Jones. None no other culture coming in. Scientology I'm sure that Yeah. On Hubbard had sex. Well Yeah. You like had a boat that people went. Yeah. There's a lot there I'm not sure who he was having sex with definitely having sex no I think a lot of this for the cult leaders start these things, I think a lot of it comes down to power and. POWER COMES DOWN TO SEX SO. Yeah there's definitely a lot of that. So spoilers on that. Yeah. I mean everybody might have seen this the story when it came out a while. The New York Times broke it what three years ago or something?.

HBO Lindsay Lindsay Ostrom heartburn Lindsay Ostermann volleyball Google Mike Pence Kamala Harris Thomas Eli Bosnia Colts Hubbard The New York Times Lindsey Hugh Bhagwan neary China Keith
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

07:00 min | 9 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"Elo and welcome to series inquiries. This is two and fifty three I'm Thomas and back again is Lindsay Ostrom and how you doing. Awesome. I'm doing great. Yeah. Yeah. I am very excited to have you on because there is a little netflix documentary that has been. Causing a stir it's in the top ten of all streaming right now you know. With Cobra Kai I'm sure which I highly recommend. I've seen the first two seasons of that. It's fantastic. It's all there is right now. So you've seen my thing. Yeah, that's great. It really is. We watched we watched before covert unfortunately so that We couldn't use that for quarantine. That was a foolish error. I'm glad I'm. Glad I waited like had it for but then we watched it so quickly because it's so enjoyable. that. That we're already it's already over. So I need the next several seasons of that but anyway along with that on Netflix. There is the social dilemma lot of people have been talking about it and what better person to come on and break it down. Then a I always say psychologists should I clarify evolutionary psychologists? Does it? I think I think my training is a social psychologist probably most relevant here. Okay. Okay. Everyday life how should I refer to your expertise? I guess I guess I'm a social psychologist that cares about evolutionary explanations of behavior. Here we go. Okay. So social psychologists. Let's easier Yeah. Because people very worried about this I mean this is the kind of thing. Now, if you've if you've listened to a lot of the same podcasts I to, which is like as recline back in the day Sam Harris and I'm sure a lot of other ones had at least two of the people involved in this on their shows. So Tristan Harris is one of them I'm blanking on the other guy but he's somebody that you you will see. So it's up for me. It wasn't exactly new, but you know it is good to get a lot of these issues out there. But if you've already heard those people interviewed, I don't think it's as though this is like some new groundbreaking thing but it does seem like putting that in a consumable documentary on net flicks that everybody can bench while they're stuck at home with Covid, is you know that's bringing new attention to part my I gotta say though my gut reaction right like off the bat when everybody is talking about this is like great. Okay I'M GONNA. Yeah better delete all my social media and then I'll just sit and look at a wall all day like I'll just. Stare at I'll sit in a chair set up couple of feet from the ladders. It'd be one thing if you know the the world weren't burning to ashes around me and Covid weren't keeping us from doing anything at this point I'm like, what's a few toppled democracies? In exchange for having social media go on. But anyway, that's my gut reaction I know I mean. But that was that was part of the thing that bothered me about this is that I think that people's take home message or one of the big take home messages from the documentary is going to be like, oh so the thing I should do in response to this information is like change my facebook settings. And that is that is a big critique that I have documentary 'cause I. Don't I mean I'm not saying that it's bad to change your facebook settings you should do that but that doesn't address the the bigger issue in my opinion. And I, think that's a real rhetorical failure. Of the documentary. Okay. While where should we begin? Where do you WanNa Start and I mean, what is the okay what are the main issues that this documentary and the people in it? What? What are the main critiques? What are they trying to tell us? Yes. Okay. So the central claims are that social media is designed to manipulate us to spend lots of time on it. That's true. Right. And that the more time we spend on it the worse off, we are in several specific ways. So they make a bunch of claims about how time on social media harm psychological health, and well being that's not a well-supported claim. They make claims about the negative effects on Social Development you know for kids and adolescents who spend a lot of time on social media also not a well supported claim. and. Then they end like really not enough of the documentary was on this last part that I think really is an issue which is that social media is designed in such a way that it can draw people down rabbit holes preferentially. And that's definitely the case and the you know the the way it's structured can has can have huge unintended consequences like on political behavior and I think that this is really important in the in the wrong hands, it could be really catastrophic. So those last two things think. Know really are super important. We should take him seriously and an act. Yeah I just Yeah I. Don't think they're making the case in the way that they should interest. Okay. Good I'm glad you laid that out. So the last few points I think Yeah. You know more or less. We can all agree with the documentary on specifically to you know they talk about their countries where the Internet is synonymous with facebook or vice versa you know. That seems like a massive problem and something I don't think you are changing our settings or and is going to do much about. So. Well, let's table that. And talk about the first two or three points you brought up there that you don't fully agree with I'm very interested in that. So yeah, I off is there a little man or three little men inside my phone drafting? I pause we'll talk about the dramatization I know you can't. We can't resist anymore I can't I can't. I can't not talk about that. It's over an hour what a weird choice. So, pause on all the issues why why did they do that? I don't get it like and I will say this as somebody you know I'm interested in in I do theater I do a little bit acting at interested in that kind of thing they probably did it about as well as you could I think. But it's such a happy thing to do that. It can't help but come across as like an after school special. You know, right? Right right. Right I. Don't why do I either want the after school special like either make an episode of Black Mirror that's going to be all these things which is kind of what they're trying to do sort of. You know do that or give me the documentary I. Really just might be a preferential thing. Of course it's all you know it's all a matter of opinion but like I really want one or the other doing, you know a little bit of interviews about the harms of social media and then all of a sudden there's actors and their acting out like a thing like Laura it looks so Dorky, to me. and. I'm guessing that the reason that they had what's his face from? That was the guy for mad the guy for madman yeah. Yeah. Yea..

facebook Netflix Covid Lindsay Ostrom Thomas Tristan Harris Sam Harris Laura
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

Serious Inquiries Only

05:54 min | 10 months ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on Serious Inquiries Only

"That'll make your prediction a little bit better right than just with ideology alone you got an income it gets a little bit better and so on and so forth and so the question is when we add the pera social bond on top of all those other things do we still get added unique predictive value from the pair social bond and if we do then it's unlikely that like conservatives were just more likely to watch the apprentice and that's the ship. It it's really something unique. At. So they did this and they did in fact, find that the pair social bonds that people form during the apprentice. Uniquely, predicted their likelihood of having voted for him. Their current attitudes toward him at the positivity of them they're likely of believing his campaign promises, which again, they didn't know yet whether he would do that he. Didn't have any information about him as an actual president and their probability of believing what the researchers called his controversial statements think that you and I would probably say his lies. Yeah but it The pair's relationship predicted. They're likely believing his lies right now. and to me again. This makes time since this is the kind of crap that we do with our friends and other people that we can. have good relationships with and it is so dangerous and how it manifests in this context right? Because like again, it makes sense for me to if my friend is rude to me, it makes sense for me to look at that behavior and say, I, still like my friend that's not representative of her. She's probably having a bad day that make sense. But the differences that I have actual information about my friend. And from watching the apprentice like what? What is more manufactured artificial than watching somebody in a reality TV show. Yeah and that was your point at the beginning of US right. Like it's such an artificial narrative that you're getting. So that's yeah that is potentially one of the most dangerous things. About this is very interesting I. You know, I'm just trying to think like it's but it wouldn't be as though like every relation para social relationship would be positive right? Yeah, that's true yeah. A lot of times with these studies they're they're implicitly measuring sort of positive bonds. That's an important thing to say. So all the questions were like I really enjoyed it. When I saw trump on the apprentice things like there's always the villain in reality shows to usually like there's the I don't watch a lot of reality TV I'm a bad example of this but I know that frequently, if it's anything like wrestling which I also don't watch, there's a he'll that people love to hate like. I, wonder how that separate topic but I wonder like what kind of para social relationship is that? Would they be more likely to like not at all trust the person than someone they didn't know or or would like the positive associational feelings or something still go with a with a weird negative relationship I, don't know. Yeah I have a feeling that if it if it really is a villain that will bleed over into people's actual judgments person even if again they know, oh, my gosh. There's a great episode of Thirty Rock where Jack Donna. Girlfriend's mom thinks. They. have him play You know, of course, vowed Baldwin being para social relationships that might be doing. He he like it turns out her mom just hates him and it's because the soap opera she watches is you know it's obviously just him also playing the soap opera villain but like we're supposed to believe that it looks just like him you know don't like. So the villain and the soap operas just Alec Baldwin says she hates him and. Reminding? Yeah So that could be that could happen yeah. Yeah. I really think so. I think that the what I get from all of this literature is that were applying social perception to these relationships in ways that are probably misplaced or at least they're not functioning the way that they were designed to. but there's they're operating that way anyway. Yeah. Definitely something to be aware of I think. Yeah. No kidding. All right note to self. Don't make trump out to be a successful businessman. On a show. Don't do that that. Oh my gosh that is super fascinating. I can't believe the time has already flown by that. That was amazing. I you know is really nice to do like a get old fashioned science. He episode I haven't done in a while probably because the world fell apart and. Mainly talking about politics and stuff, but that was really interesting. Thanks for taking US through studies. Thanks. Thanks for developing, we all have a little bit more of a social social relationship with Lindsay Ostrom and Oh. Hey Mom throughout your plugs you're doing a podcast now, right? Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Me and my friend Sarah are doing a podcast about books. We've been reading a lot of fun books and talking about them. It's called we're on the same page. And that yeah, it's it's a nod to the fact that she and I have been friends for like fifteen years and we agree with each other too much but. Except, sometimes anyway so we're on the same page it's should be available in all the different pod catchers. Search out everybody that that's delightful. I hope that. Some people will go forma form of. Actually. My. Things that you just said, and then you didn't say them wonder what they're talking about. My husband says that he actually feels weird. Now he listens and he feels like he also has a pair of ood. Ethics there. Yeah. I can't even begin. Technically cheating, I think. It's not mean. Hot Gasman. Good. Times thanks so much for coming on check out the show. We're on the same page and thanks again for taking us through that. Those really fascinating..

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"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

02:55 min | 3 years ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"BBC news with Jerry Smith, the leaders of Iran Turkey and Russia meeting today to discuss the conflict in Syria Syrian government forces with Russian air. Support have been preparing for a major offensive in. Italy. The Turkey has echoed his by agencies that the assault could lead to a new influx of refugees across its border. The turbulent presidential election campaign in Brazil has been shaken further by an attempt to kill the controversial front runner. Don't said the far-right candidate air boat scenario could have died after being stabbed during a campaign rally. He suffered serious internal injuries. The US Defense Secretary James Mattis who's in Kabul, and the Afghan president Ashraf Ghani are expected to discuss efforts to negotiate with the tunnel bomb. Temporary ceasefire has declared by the Taliban. This here have posted hopes that years of fighting can be brought to an end, but your heart is from the Islamic state group would not be involved in negotiations. The presidents of Serbia and Kosovo will meet in Brussels today to explore a possible deal including a proposed exchange of territory. The proposal would alter the country's borders and has met resistance in the Balkans. President Trump has again called on the New York Times to name the anonymous author of an article attacking him. He said he had reached a new all-time low in this level of hatred at least sixteen people are now confirmed dead following the earthquake on the island of her Kaido in northern Japan. Twenty six people remain missing the quake triggered landslides bearing houses and cutting transport links. Serena Williams has reached the US open tennis final just over a year after the birth of her first child the American crushed Anastasius Avesta from Latvia and is on the cusp of equalling. The Australian Margaret court's all time record for major victories. BBC news. He really just feel like you want to lay down and die. You just you have no energy to to drink water to eat food to do the things that you need to do to survive. And I remember when we were leaving the hospital thinking like I don't know when the last time I've eaten actually was. Lindsay Ostrom gave birth to her baby son after when she was just five and a half months pregnant, he died the next day. I think especially in very very early grief. It becomes an all consuming thing. And even things that you need to do to stay alive like drink water and eat food become secondary. Almost to just this, all encompassing. Emotional.

BBC Turkey president US Lindsay Ostrom Italy Taliban Ashraf Ghani Syria James Mattis Serena Williams Jerry Smith Iran New York Times Kabul Brazil Australian Margaret court assault Serbia
"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on The Food Chain

The Food Chain

08:18 min | 3 years ago

"lindsay ostrom" Discussed on The Food Chain

"Hello. This is the food chain from the BBC World Service where food science, culture and business are mixed together to give you food for thought each week. Poke us from the BBC World Service supported by advertising. He really just feel like you want to lay down and die. You just you have no energy to to drink water to eat food to do the things that you need to do to survive. And I remember when we were leaving the hospital thinking like, I don't know when the last time I've eaten actually was. Lindsay Ostrom gave birth to her baby son after when she was just five and a half months pregnant, he died the next day. I think especially in very, very early grief. It becomes an all consuming thing, and even things that you need to do to stay alive, like drink water and eat food become secondary almost to just this all encompassing emotional state that you're in. If you've lost someone, you loved, you may have felt the same in the days that followed. And when the immediate shock wore off, it may have taken weeks months or even years to really enjoy food again. For some cooking and eating will never be the same. But why is it this at times we most need all our strength. A bodies may tell us, we're not hungry, and when the company of others has never mattered so much mealtimes can be the loneliest hours of the day. I'm Emily Thomas and over the next two weeks, I'll be exploring the relationship between food and grief and how we can use it to navigate our way through the hardest darkest hours. I'm going to find out about the science behind grief and appetite and how social customs around food can help or hinder the grieving process. I'll ask whether we should be using food to remember the deceased will to reconnect with them and how what and where we eat in times of loss, reflects our deepest beliefs about dying. Phil linzie in the weeks and months that followed the death of her baby son, a loss of interest in fade threatened not just a health and wellbeing, but a livelihood she lives in Saint Paul, Minnesota in the US midwest and runs a food blog called pinch of young, which receives around five million visitors per month. The idea of food in general was kind of repulsive. What normally would be a passion for me. It just was like complete shutdown. And the only thing that I could process was losing our son and what was that gonna mean for our lives in the future. And what did that mean for him? Did you ever think you'd have to change careers together that you couldn't bear to write about food anymore? Yes, I did. I think I felt so disconnected from that version of myself. And did people bring you food. Yeah, it was actually the very first day after we got home from the hospital, somebody just rang the doorbell and left and I came out and of course you know, I was on showered and in my pajamas and had probably been crying all night and open the door. And there was some kind of a Amelia there for us. That was the beginning of what would be kind of this probably month long or more on trend where our friends and family were delivering food to us. And that was a complete lifeline because I certainly didn't have the ability to even think through what we would eat much less want to eat it. And people would just show up with, you know, casseroles and soups and foods that we could freeze and freshly baked bread and all kinds of different things. But did you want to beat it. That's a great question. I found that I normally I'm the kind of person that likes to eat really spicy food and really big flavors and colors and textures. And all I wanted was just like a plain potato soup or like just white bread with butter just really, really playing foods. I think when people are grieving, there's a quietness that kind of permeates your life and that you need and it's different for every person. But I know that was true for me. And it was the quiet comfort fade bullets by friends and family that helped Lindsey get back to work. Having people around me and food around me. That was like, okay, one thing at a time. Like, let's have one bowl of soup right now and the resulting upwards spiral that happened from that using that as kind of a comfort and just a physical, bring you back to life kind of elements. Like a thing that tells you to reality and remind you of who you really are and that you're here and that you're alive and you do need to keep living. Lindsey realized just how important these often very simple dishes can be and must have family and friends for the recipes. If they're soups and pies and casseroles, she published them in a series of blog posts which she called feeding break in heart. And then the project took on a life of its own on Instagram, hundreds of people pasted pictures of dishes that made to help others through grief with the hashtag. Feeding a break in heart. I take it really seriously to published recipes that are gonna turn out while that are going to bring them what they're looking for in that particular moment because that moment might be about so much more than the food itself. Do you think that food's helps people communicates about death in a way? Absolutely. People don't know what to say. I even feel that now I feel in pretty well acquainted with grief yet. When I hear about someone losing someone that they're close to, my first reaction is like, oh, what do I say? And I think food says the bottom line thing, which is I care about you. And when you provide food for someone, you're telling them that you see that they're in a hard spot and you want to help them, feel loved and feel comforted. But you don't necessarily have to have the words for that. A pan of lasagna brought to someone's door. Can say, potentially a lot more and maybe even can say something more accurately than the words that you might write in sympathy card. It's being just a year and a half since he lost your son. Where are you now? Do you cook elaborate creative recipes like he used to? And is this stage of your grief reflected in the food that you cook in any way. I do think for me, there's a connection between the type of food that I'm excited about and that I'm able to make an eat and my healing process. I mean, it's been a little more than a year and a half since we lost aften and I am in a completely different place emotionally, but also specifically with food. Then I was, you know, in those months immediately after he died, I can think of exciting things to make, and I get really passionate thinking about all of those different color flavor, textual elements of food. And that just that just wasn't present at all in those first few months. Fill-in

BBC Lindsey Lindsay Ostrom US Emily Thomas Instagram Minnesota Phil linzie Saint Paul two weeks