18 Episode results for "joseph smith"

The Real Story of Joseph Smiths Death

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

1:13:34 hr | 1 year ago

The Real Story of Joseph Smiths Death

"To. Come to the RAP report with your host and rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and Application Mrs Ministry striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community for more content or request a speaker for your church. Go to striving for eternity non more. All right well. Welcome to another rap report I'm your host Andrew Rappaport I have another special guest with us. Today wanted to on this particular day. This is dropping a day earlier than typical only because on the day that it drops is actually the one hundred and seventy six anniversary. Of the death of Joseph Smith. We should we be celebrating that depends on your perspective, but This is the the anniversary of his death and the point that we want to. Do Throughout this episode. Is Show really what really happened? What led up to the death of the leader of the Church of Jesus. Christ latter-day Saints also known as Mormons. But what happened? That led up to his death. What really happened at his death? Was He really a martyr? This is what we hoped to accomplish in this episode. So when you're going to talk about Latter Day saints. There's only one person to bring in well. Okay, there's some others you could bring in, but there's probably the one most world renowned. On He's GonNa hate that I just. said that, but it is bill mckeever from. Research Ministry, and you can check out warmer research ministry at M. Dot Org, but bill mckeever and Eric Johnson work there and have done probably more work. The only person that may even be close would be Sandra Tanner and I don't know now who has who could say has more has done more research into Mormonism, but bill welcome to the report. Thank you Andrew skewed to be with you and I would probably concede I. Wish I knew enough in my fingernail. All Sandra Tanner knows film. She's probably the most knowledgeable on all the historical aspects of mormonism. That's for sure. She's an amazing lady. Yeah, I mean I had. Researched when I was researching mormonism. Sandra and Jerald Tanner. Their stuff was invaluable. Oh Yeah I think all of us have. Certainly been benefited by the research of Jerald and Sandra. That's for sure, and they did so much research and really they were really the pioneers. Before the Internet and things like this when you couldn't get access to documents and. You. They lay down the groundwork really for your ministry and what you guys do now that we have the Internet. I think it's having an impact on the the Mormon, church or Ya oh yeah. The question. You get the most even admitted that Andrew. They've even admitted that the Internet is having a severe impact on their on the church. Because all the information that. Of course we had been reporting on for decades. can easily be looked up and checked out and they realize this is why I think. They came out with the Gospel topics essays in two thousand thirteen. They knew they could not just keep telling members while just don't go to that site. Even though they kept doing that, but they knew that wasn't working, and so the Internet has caused them all sorts of headaches. You Know There's Gospel. Essays are things that covers stuff. They say Antes, you those anti. Anti Mormons would would put out like Joseph Smith having multiple wise, even young children sisters the fact that African Americans were not allowed to be priests all kinds of things that they they they would deny because they would just change the history and just say Oh, no, that never happened I had some Mormon missionaries who had come to our house in the, and I had said the Mormon church will be accepting homosexuality soon. No, it would never. I wish I could get hold of those missionaries now and say so. Can you tell me about Brigham Young? The university's policy of Accepting almost. Certainly. Boy just! Made a lot of people just wonder what's going on here, but you know what I don't think it should surprise us because. The Elliot's Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of latter. Day Saints as official title never really go to the Bible to begin with to justify a lot of what the teach. So why would we expect them on that issue to go to? The Bible and use the Bible as a guide as to how to handle that behavior. They just don't normally it all goes by the leadership tells the membership. They are the ones that are led by God to guide the Church as prophets and apostles in these modern days. Yet it it was fun you, you and I had gone with with your organization to temple opening, and that was really fun. I I just I didn't reveal that I was a Christian. I was I was spotted right away. And so I do know that art our tour we were on a silent tour. None of us were allowed to ask questions, and they weren't allowed to answer any of our questions. To supposedly to make up for time, but meanwhile the the tours in front, and behind us were having no problem with that asking questions and all, but we weren't allowed to ask any questions, and then when I got out, the the two missionaries start talking to me. I just revealed that I was Jewish they they asked me what I thought. Temple that was. This is very interesting. You know, but it's nothing like the Old Testament Temple. and. I revealed that I'm a levite. A core height, which that fan would be the family responsible for the temple element, so so they had I think they never actually dealt with a levite flake standing there and and they didn't know what to do because. You're they kept saying that. This is the way the temple is, and I'm going well. That's not the way it is in the Bible and they. They had clearly never read the Bible at least the Old Testament with the temple, and I even had one because we ended up having six. Missionaries 'cause the to call to others for backup who to others for backup. And and when the the last two this lady's is woman says to me, she says well. This is the way the temple is in Israel. And I said there is no temple in Israel right now, and she goes Oh. Yes, my professor at at Brigham Young University told me that this is this is a temple in Israel and they have marriages in it. And I went, and one of the other girl stopped her and said he's a Levi. He understands the temple like it was like because. You and I. told. You and I had an experience at Brigham. Young's house that you said was the you've been on several tours. Maybe you could tell that story of what happened when you and I went to his house, they they didn't like us in that house too much. Well normally the tour guides the Beehive House. That's the name of Brigham Young's home. It was also the governor's office. In fact, that's the first part of the tour. Is You're in the office area? For the governor of the territory of desert, rat known at that time before it became a state in the eighteen nineties. And so you go on the tour, and of course they want to Give you the best side of mormonism and they do talk about Brigham young and he gotTA. Admit Brigham Young was If, it wasn't for bringing me out. I doubt if we even be talking about this right now. but he was quite a quite a man, and so I oftentimes would like to bring up the subject of polygamy if a don't and I've had tour. Guys bring it up on their own. It's almost like they wanNA talk about it and get it over with men. Let's get on with the rest of the tour. and. It's Kinda strange I remember one time I don't know if this was the tour that I was with you. You but I remember the young lady and they're usually always women who take you around. Usually young missionaries will take you on the tour. And so I asked about the polygamy issue, and of course she gave a very standard answer. That I've heard many times well. They did that in order to take care of the women who had lost husbands. During the persecution tie. And of course, how many men were lost during the persecution time? They don't know in fact. The largest number I've ever heard is probably maybe fifty to a hundred men could have been killed during the time of the Mormons were being harshly persecuted I, even think that's quite a bit. certainly one is too many i. don't think violence is the cure for false doctrine at all, but they brought that evidence of well. Why did you? Why did he have to marry them? In order to take care of them, that doesn't seem necessary. Why not just give the woman a stipend or checking her own apartment or place to live, and and you can take care of him that way? And then they said she said something about well. It was because of the the laws regarding land in inheritance. Well the problem is is since eighteen, sixty, two in the Moral Act M. O.. R. I L. L. named after politician. this was considered unlawful cohabitation to begin with now I know Abraham Lincoln wasn't going to enforce the moral act during the civil war, as long as the warm, and stayed out of the conflict, but later on with the Edmonds Act, and then the Edmunds Tucker Act they. They weren't even recognized as marriages. So how would that even help? The allied, but a lot of these kids. They don't know this. They don't study their history. They're given a script in a and I always encourage people to be as polite as possible when you're going on these tours because these poor kids. You can imagine some of the questions. They probably get from even Christians probably. Let's be honest cannot be the nicest when dealing with this subject. Yeah, well I think I tried to be nice. I again. I when we went I pretended I didn't I am. Jewish pretended I revealed my Judaism. Field, my background, but we got right into the temple when she started talking about the temple. And I discussed what I knew of the Temple and When we let you basically told me that they exodus out door left really quick. And that they basically the temp, the tours much longer we go upstairs. And! There was none of that they just. Have a nice day. Here's the exit. Yeah I think they realize that if they have some people on the tour that are asking questions that make them feel uncomfortable. They probably have exit strategy to take us into the dining area. Remember that's the last spot where we're at. There was a dining room and right next to. It is a library, and there's a door that goes out to mainstream, and that's the end of the tour, but you're right. Sometimes I've been on tours where they do. Take you upstairs and all around the. The talk about the kids they talk about what life was like in the beehive? House and such, and then I've been on some very short tours, and sometimes I wonder why they were so short, because there was not a huge crowd waiting behind us to get in now during the summer I can understand that because they're relatively busy during the summer. That's not always been the case but I do like to open up for some questions because they will ask towards the end for show her. If there are any questions, and I look at that as a great opportunity to ask them things of the of the missionary, personally when it comes to the forgiveness of their own sends A. What would I have to do? If I was to join their church in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, and I just let the Mormon missionary answer that, and of course the answer to that question is going to open up a whole huge discussion on how it's virtually impossible to verge of sins I following the rules and outlines of the doctrines of the only church. We as WanNa talk about the the real story of the death of Joseph Smith. The first question that you get asked a lot and I think we should just get it out of the way because many people think that you must be from a Mormon background, you hate Mormons or we should say. Saints the proper title and I just preface. No disrespect if I say Mormon or LDS. It's just shorter. There's no disrespect. I know that they want the full title Church Jesus Christ latter-day Saints but. For the sake of Brevity, I'M GONNA call them LDS or Mormon, and so when when you come upon them, you have done tons of research. People always think there's got to be some. Acts that you have to grind against them that you would you devote your life to this? So were you previously a Mormon and what got into studying mormonism? I never was a I was never a member. I actually became a Christian, and after I, graduated from High School, and I grew up with a lot of LDS friends and very nice to me, they never tried to convert me everything like that, but I knew who they were I knew. Something of their church naturalized, no a lot of the details. Because I wasn't a believer at the time I didn't care. But after I became a Christian I, had conversations with some new lds acquaintances that I had come across and started asking them some things because of my new found faith in Christ, and I was just curious, and naturally a lot of these people were friends of mine, and the answers that they gave me cause me some genuine concern that I would ask them well. What do you do with this passage in the Bible and and things like this and it? It almost didn't matter to them. If they didn't have a good spin on what they thought that Bible verse met, it was usually an answer we'll. That's why we have latter day revelation we have modern prophets in hospitals that are guiding the Church today, and we go by their guidance, and a lot of those things in the Bible or not absolutely necessary any longer besides they would say, things like well. We believe the Bible as far as it's translated correctly. Because that's article, eight in their articles of faith what that really means to lease the scholars who explained Article Eight is, it's not so much a translation problem as it's a transmission problem there. They like to argue that our Bible as it was being hand written. got a lot of mistakes. Put in there, either intentionally or unintentionally, and so the Bible we have today, even if it's a good translation, it would only be to them a good translation of a bad transmission. And, so we got big huge question mark on the liberty of the Biblical text. You can see why a latter-day say once they embrace the authority structure of the church. will go along with just about anything they're being told. And that becomes a problem That's why in some cases. I like to use Joseph Smith Translation. When I'm talking to Mormons, I should explain that. Joseph Smith. The founder of the Mormon Movement claimed he was told by God to come up with a new translation of the Bible. He started it in eighteen thirty claims. He finished it July of eighteen thirty three but if you go through the Joseph Smith Translation, and the reason why I like to use it, not that I think he did a good job on it. That's for sure, but he left a lot of the. The verses that I will probably be bringing up in a conversation intact. The Isaiah Passages Isaiah, forty, three, forty, four, forty, five, regarding there, only being one God you also find. The fusion's two eight nine is left intact. Titus three five is left intact relations. One eight is left intact, a lot of the verses that I would probably bring up Joseph. Smith did not touch them, or if you touch them, he didn't change the meaning. And that because very helpful when you're talking to a latter-day saints, because it's hard to say that this Bible Joseph Smith translation or the inspired version as they call it chappie translated badly because it was translated by inspiration from God himself. So that's a good tactic. That I've used over the years yet, and that's one of the reasons. I like the Gospel Essay on the Golden. Golden plates because they have a problem there. They always said it was a translation. Now they have to say it's an inspired translation. Because when Joseph Smith did that, no one knew reform hieroglyphics, and now that we have resented stone one of those Gospel. Essays have to admit that. Yes, it's really not a good translation. In fact, he might be referring to the book of Abraham. Abraham? Sorry, they use that yeah. You're still right when it comes to the book of Mormon because Joseph Smith the Church has now admitted officially. It's not that they've never admitted this and I. think that needs to be made clear a lot of the things that we report on will. Where do we get them? We get them from their sources, so it's not like. The Church has completely hidden from existence. You might say because we found it and I'll give you an example back. In nineteen ninety-three Russell M Nelson the seventeenth president of the Elliot's Church gave a talk in general conference where he mentions for instance, the seer stone and the hat how Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon from the reformed. Characters and such. Even though he wasn't looking at the characters, the Rock somehow had a magical power that he could look at this rock in a hat, and it would tell him what was on. The gold plates written in reformed Egyptian. Now when I would bring that up to a lot of latter day, saints they thought I was crazy, and that was a terrible light. Make their leader look bad. Even though their own scholars were very well aware of this of course Russell m Nelson is very well aware of it when he talked about it in nineteen ninety-three. With that kind of a translation prom. Process was not spoken enough times for it to become part of the Mormon narrative certainly not like the First Vision Account Joe. Smith claimed that he was visited by God the father and Jesus Christ. You told him that all in churches were on the creeds were an abomination, and their professors were all corrupt, all Mormon seemed to know that story, because it's told over and over and over again. But not the story of the seer stone of the hat. That was mentioned very rarely, and most Mormons probably didn't even know where to look to find that story written in their own sources. But it's easily found on. Dot Org from a research ministry. And, we actually. or point people to their official website so that people can see it on their. That's what so Great Andrew About these Gospel topics essays. Once they started coming out and they came out euchre mentally over about a three year period. Then they came out with some even shorter ones. Historical Gospel topics essays. And what's great about them is you can send the Mormon to their own official website where they can read the same things that I might be saying, or you might be saying, and it's really hard for them to him. I took it out of context or I. Embellish the count the account to make it sound bad. It's right there. In their own material and I have referred people back to their own website. Numerous Times say go read it for yourself. Come back and let's talk about it. And that's that those essays have been great. That was I had to one. There was missionaries are coming, and and soon as I gave them their own documents, they were like They didn't come back, so yeah, so Joseph Smith the the accounting that lead up to his death. And how he actually died. the Church of Jesus Christ latter-day. Saints has a account for this. And the question I'd like to. Ask. Is it accurate, and so could you give us the history of I? The church's account of what happened. And then let's go through the real account. What happened and see if they both lineup? Okay. Let me. Let Me I. Qualify This what I'm going to be looking at or sources that the les. Church has published so that would be their account. Now, there are some details in this. Akao at have been I guess you could say whitewashed over time, but they're really entered the minor accounts, and not really all that important. I think that as Christians. We can talk to a ladder to say about the events leading up to Joseph Smith's demise, just by referring to their own resources, whether it's the documentary his of the Church, which is what they call the blue history because they were bound in a blue hardcover. And there were seven volumes. Very, well, respected history that there. Historians often went to to recap women. But then the church in two thousand, eighteen came out with a new history book called Saints The Standard of truth. and. This is the first of four volumes that are going to be released over time the second ball. You has already been released. And I, I got to be quite honest with the annual I have been amazed at. The transparency or honesty, if you will of this new history book, it brings things out that I think would probably embarrass a lot of fateful latter-day saints and I've said this Eric and I did a series on this book the first volume. I. I often made the comment that if I was not a member of the church, and I was given this by a Mormon neighbor to read about the history of more than movement, I would not join the church after reading it. Because Joseph Smith. Doesn't look all that great in this history, he looks like the a man who was a badger character had a bad behavior made dumb decisions, hardly what we would consider to be a prophet of God, because he's claiming revelations, and then a lot of these things don't happen the way. The revelation said it was supposed to happen. I'll give me an example. It talks about Zion's camp. where the camp of Israel were Mormons were kicked out of Independence Missouri. Joseph Smith claimed he had a revelation from. To raise a small army and Goget that land back for the saints, well, he raises the small army, but he never gets the land back for the saints. They're actually stopped from doing that. will if I was a outside or reading account like that I would wonder what kind of a prophet is this? WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE REVELATIONS? But yet they don't seem to come forth, and certainly deuteronomy, thirteen and boot around eighteen that would be a pretty telltale test of a true or false bar profit. One is what he says going to happen, really happen. And in many. Cases, it doesn't happen. Which would show you that Joseph? Smith was a fraud. But when it comes to the death of Joseph Smith. Really it all boils down to some of the behavior that Joseph Smith was exhibiting in Nabu Illinois, which is a town that you might say the Mormons really built up. It wasn't that it was never there before it just had a different name when they moved in. It was known as Commerce Illinois, and then as the Mormon started migrating into this town, started growing like crazy in some of said, even wrote root rot rival Chicago at the time. And so Joseph. Smith of course is at this time in the eighteen forties. He's starting to marry a of women polygamous. But at the same time, this is not something that's being proclaimed publicly. Only a few select men that were very close to Joe. Smith knew about this. Many of them practiced it themselves secretly. But there were some men who became privy to us that founded abhorrent. And they decided to get together at least seven of them. In fact, I have their names here. They were William. Law Who is a member of the first presidency since eighteen forty one. Wilson Law's brother who was a brigadier general in the Nabu Legion which was like a militia that Joseph Smith had there was another guy by the name of Austin. Cowles, who is a member of the novel High Council. There was James Blake XLII. Who is a seventy now? This is still pretty pretty prominent position in the church. And then there were some prominent businessmen also involved Robert Foster. Chauncey higby and Charles Evans. These guys got together to publish. A newspaper called the Nabu X. Positive. It was meant to expose Joseph Smith's abuse of power and the fact that he was practicing polygamy secretly. and. Because of this newspaper only came out with one edition, it was supposed to be a weekly edition came out one time and early Jim. And Joseph Smith found out about it as you can imagine. He was pretty upset at what these men had said about him. Now he naturally accused them of lying, making up things or embellishing things, which that's very typical when a person has caught, that's usually the first response you know is to say it's all made up, and it's just meant to slander well. That's exactly how Joe Smith. Took it now. You have to understand Joseph Smith was the mayor of with this time, so he has some pretty significant power in this area of the state, so he has a city council meeting. And a reading from volume six of the history of the church, this is the blue bound volume documentary history charge, and this is what it says. There was a decree made. To the Marshall and how they were supposed to handle this newspaper that had published these things about Joe Smith that he was not very pleased about this is what it says. The following order was immediately issued by the mayor while the mayor is Joseph Smith. and. It says to the Marshall of Said City greeting. You are here commanded to destroy the printing press from whence issues, the NABU exposure and pie but type. Pie. The type is a phrase. We don't normally used nowadays, but what that meant was to scatter the types of takes, take all those individual letters and everything else and scatter them out in the dirt, so they can't be used any longer. So. You are to destroy the press pie. The type of set printing establishment in the street and burn all the explosives and liable as handbills found in, said establishment, and if resistance be offered to your execution of this order by the owners or others demolished the house. And if anyone threatens you or the mayor or the officers of the city arrest, both who threaten you and fail not to execute this order without delay and make do return here on, and at signed by the order of the City Council Joseph Smith Mayor. Now the next entry Andrew is this it says marshalls return an in quotation marks. It says, but within named press. anti-arab is destroyed and pied, according to order on this temp. They of June eighteen, forty, four at a pal, eight o'clock p. m signed by J P Green headquarters of the Nabu Legion. That's what gets everything rolling. Is This newspaper based on Joseph Smith's behavior and exposing Joseph's misbehavior? So the question is, we're the Mormons acting legally to destroy this printing press. Some have said that. If the printing was declared a nuisance than yes, you could have done that, but even Dallin h oaks. Who is the second? In Command in the earliest church right now as we speak, he was, he was a lawyer. He was a judge and he said well they could have declared it to be a nuisance. Go so for so far as to destroy the printing press. Even. said that was out of line. He probably could have got. Away with destroying the printed paper, the paper itself, but the printing press threatened to destroy the building. No, that was out alive they. They were not allowed to do that even by the law at that time. It seems almost as if what he's trying to do. Is Damage Control he's. He realizes he's been doing something. He's been trying to keep silent. And now it's going to get exposed, but he has the authority to do something about it, and so he tried to cover it up. To the evidence correct, and of course the problem in a town like this. We're you have a lot of non Mormons living there. A lot of people don't realize that Nabu wasn't all latter day saint. There are a lot of non Mormons that we're living in that area at the time. And you can imagine how quickly the word is going to get around. See Joseph Smith was a very colorful, very controversial figure. And, living in that area of the state, you couldn't help but know who this guy is and naturally there were a lot of rumors circulating around about him. especially his plural wives in that kind of behavior, and you can understand how a lot of people would not. Find favour with that these guys that put together the novel a positive they. Didn't like the way he was behaving and this was in their estimation best way. To well exposed Joseph Smith so that people could know the other side about this guy. And we should say for the record that the things that they were exposing and putting in this. Are Things that now the LDS Church has put out and confirmed were actually true. Yeah. You have to understand that the paper itself. Wasn't about Joseph Smith, there were some other things in there that would have been of interest probably to some of the locals, but definitely it was meant to expose his abuse of power. Expose him as practicing polygamy, and those things were true I I mean he was doing that to a certain extent, as far as abusing power, but definitely when it came to having more than one wife, even though Joseph. Smith was publicly lying about it. Clear up to the end, really but the paper was correct in and a lot of its accusations. Why wouldn't it be? These men were close to Joseph. Smith these men at one time had respect for Joe Smith. And so, why wouldn't it be truthful? So this is what really was leading up to his arrest. Now you know for people who may not study mormonism so much. There is this picture that the Mormon Church Paints where he was Joseph Smith was this. Wonderful Man Yeah. He might have been a con artist in his early days, but. God got a hold of him, and he could have been the next president, and that's I heard one mormon that actually argued the reason he was killed. was to prevent him from getting to the White House. Some may have had that as a reason. I don't know but I. Don't think the chances of Joseph, Smith, becoming president were anything but slim to none He was just too strange in his beliefs and his character. Scare people so I. Don't think he would become president at all, but he was definitely running for president at the time of his death, and I'm sure he would have easily gotten the vote of his followers now with those followers enough to secure the White House. I. Doubt It. But it just shows the embiid Shen that this man had. You scared a lot of people you say that, but we got. Donald Trump in the White House now so people can described him that way. Grassroots, movement, you might say. You never know, but you never know but no. Let's get into what happened. The arrest him. You know in the in the jailhouse and with that it's going to take a an a WANNA. Do after this break, but the the thing that really helped me is when you took me through to tour through the museum where they show you what? That jailhouse was like it gave a different. Understanding of what it was like, and that helped me understand a little bit better. The what happened with his death, and then how it really happened, so let's cover that after this break. While you may have seen missionaries for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints in their white shirts and black badges. You may not be familiar with the teachings of this American born organization. Did you know that while Mormons claim to be Christians? Many of their doctrines cannot be supported by the new. Testament's if you're curious as to with the Mormon people are taught to believe and how those beliefs differ from Christianity. You're invited to listen to a unique radio program called viewpoint on mormonism. Point on Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism Research Ministry a Christian Ministry based in Salt Lake City Utah Mormonism Research Ministry has been challenging the claims of the Mormon, church, since nineteen, seventy, nine in heaven, effectively educating Christian believers about the teachings that separate mormonism from the Christian faith, and we hope you will tune into viewpoint on mormonism as host bill mckeever in Eric Johnson examined mormonism from a Christian perspective. Looking for strategies that will help you engage in meaningful conversations with members of the Mormon Church, so take a look at sharing the good news with Mormons a New Book Produced Harvest House publishers and edited by Roman Research Ministries that are Johnson and Sean McDowell. Sharing the good news with Mormons includes twenty four helpful essays from two dozen Christian apologists, scholars and pastors pick up your copy it the Utah Lighthouse Bookstore or order directly from 'em Ram Dot Org and that book is also available at striving for Dot Org, as I am one of the authors who was invited into that project, which has very glad to be but. Bill Discuss this the the account of his death. He's described as a martyr. Does. Martyrdom sit the account of his death Lee. Walk US through. Describe what the jailhouse was because it wasn't a. What we think of a room where he got bars, and there's a window that he can look out with bars in very different. Could you describe that jailhouse and you? How the arrest came about and what happened there? Well okay, let let's talk about how the arrest came about. Because, there's a lot of things that took place before. Joseph Smith Leaves Nabu and heads towards Carthage, which was the county seat about twenty miles away. And what happens is the governor. Tha Thomas Ford. Actually tells. Joseph Smith after the destruction of the paper that he needs to turn himself in and Ford promised him an armed escort, which not realized I often wonder about bad. Why would Ford promise that and then not allow him to have this escort will? He didn't really need an armed escort to get to nabu anyway, but still it seems like there were some promises that were being made by the governor that never came about which makes you wonder where they kind of hoping something tragic might happen to this guy. I don't know I don't know, but the fact is is after Joseph's Math was going to be turned in. He flees. He doesn't go to Carthage right away. He actually crosses the Mississippi River and the new book sates talks about this in the chapter titled a Lamb to the slaughter. And it says that after he had fled that later that morning, Emma set Hiram Kimball and her nephew Lorenzo Lorenzo. Watson to Iowa because that's across the river from Nauvoo to convince Joseph to come home and turn himself in now is his first wife. Okay Emma Hale was her name, the married they told Joseph that the governor intended to occupy now who with troops until he and his brother Hiram gave themselves up. Quarter. This is speaking of Orrin Porter Rockwell. Who Has Joseph Smith's bodyguard? He was later Brigham, Young's body guard, and depending on what side you're on, you could also consider import rockwell to be Brigham Young's assassin as well. But Horta returned soon after with Reynolds K. hone and a letter from Emma again, begging him to return to the city. Hiram. Kimball Lorenzo an rentals all Joseph a coward for leaving the blue and exposing the saints to Danger, and this is supposed to be a statement from Smith I will die before I will be called a coward if my life is of no value to my friends, it is done to myself so as a result of this Joseph Smith turns himself in in according to this history, which is pretty much what other history books have said as well. Five hundred forty three says at Joseph, mounted his horse and set off with Hiram than the other men for Carthage. I am going like a lamb to the slaughter. He told them but I am calm as a summer's morning I have a conscience void of offense toward God and towards all men. And that is a famous line that Mormons tell over and over to China to give you this picture. That he was going to tournament to turn himself in and to be this eventual martyr at cord, but when he gets to Carthage he, he goes to check himself in a in a hotel and the local constable, a guy by the name Abed is worth meets him and arrests him and puts them in the Carthage jail, and originally the charge was supposed to be riot for destroying the pretty press. Well eventually, the charge becomes treason now. This is a capital offense. This isn't anything small like riot. You might think this is now. A capital offense makes me wonder Josie. Smith is now getting a little bit nervous, and so he goes to turn themselves in. And in court they were, I'm reading from the history. It says that day in court Joseph and higher were released to await trial on the riot charges, but before the brothers could leave town to William. Laws associates brought complaints against them for declaring martial law in the WVU. They were charged with treason against the government and people of Illinois a capital offense that permitted the men for being released on bail. So, Joseph and hire more confined in the county jail locked together in a cell for the night. And this jail. The Carthage jail is a stone building. It's two stories you walk in the bottom. The bottom part was the quarters where the jailer lived with his family and upstairs. There was a barred cell as well as a debtor sell. They call it, and you would go up the stairs and there was a landing there. You would turn to the right, and if you went straight, you would go towards the debt or sell. That's where they put Joseph Smith in the debt or sell. And the door itself didn't even lock. It was wart Baloch did not work, and so you would think that they didn't really think you'd be a flight risk. Except for the fact that they did have armed guards at the jail to make sure that Joe Smith wooden escape, so even though he could probably walk out of the room and go on the landing, he couldn't get away from the jail and and and flea. But what happens on June twenty seventh? Eighteen, forty four. The jail. Is. I. Guess, you could say attack by a mob, and this mob is coming for Joseph Smith now did they want to kill Joseph Smith, that's a matter of controversy something that maybe they were there, merely to capture Joseph Smith and turn them in because he was wanted in another area of the country, and maybe they could get a reward of that, but we'll never really know because we just won't know that stuff. Is I guess not really available to us to know all the facts there, but the mob attacks the jail and they go up on the landing. And Joseph Smith is being visited at that time by a man named Willard Richards and John Taylor. John, Taylor would later become the third president of the Church and Willard Richards was Mormon Apostle they were visiting at the time and earlier in the day Joseph. Smith was visited by guy by the name of Cyrus Wheelock. Cyrus Wheelock left Joe Smith a smuggled pistol. He got past the guards and he gave the gun he actually says. Does anybody want this and Smith supposedly says here give it to me. He wanted it and he put it in his pantaloons pocket. As the way, it's worded in the history of the church. When this mob attacks! Joe Smith not only has a gun, but another man visited him during the day by the name of full, Moore, who also offered a pistol to the prisoners and Joseph. Smith took that and gave it to his brother Hiram. And as the mob came up the landing onto the landing. The men in the cellar, holding themselves against the door. Because, there isn't a lock on the door. and Th- written I'm I'm giving the story as it is more in history? A bullet goes through the door and hits Hiram in the face and the bridge of the nose. He allegedly falls back saying something like I am a dead man. Now. That is certainly controversial because a person shot in the head in that. Area specifically. Is probably not going to be forming words. Or sentences so this could be romanticized for all we know, but Hiram falls back and Joseph Smith allegedly says something to the effect. Oh my poor dear brother, Hiram, and he goes to his aid. WHO's he's laying there and as justice with gets up from his probably dead brother. At this time he pulls the gun out. The opens. The door slightly sticks his. Our Mountain fires the gun three times. Or an excuse me six times. He pulls the trigger, but it fires only three times. It's an even Allen pepper box, not a very reliable gun at all, and only three of the barrels discharge. as we understand it John, Taylor. Who was there, said Bat. The barrels did discharge hit their marks He was under the impression that two of those that were shot by Smith died. That's controversial Some say that's not true. That didn't happen although John, Taylor never changed his mind or changed his account of what happened that day. But what eventually happens, is Joseph Smith after firing the gun? They tried closing the door. He goes to the window of the jails cell, and he begins to give masonic signal of distress, saying the words Oh, Lord my God. He's shot again at the window. Any falls out never completing what many believe to be the masonic signal of stress, which is Oh, Lord, my God. Is there no help for the widow's son? All? He gets out of the words. Lord my God, and he falls out the window. They propped his body up. They shoot him again and at the end of Joe, Smith and Hiram Smith. That's how he died and yet if you were to take the tour. And I've taken it many many times. They never volunteer the information on the smuggled pistol. I always have to bring it up during the when Acre. Well in in the history of the church, one of the things I always would bring up with people is the fact that they described his death as a martyr's death. Right however, as you just gave the accounting. Assuming, shot is fired in. He's not just taking it lying down. He's not distrusting God. He's actually aggressor you know. I think the way that it words in the history of the church. Berkeley's. He had his trusty six shooter I. Think is how was said, but he's firing he's. He's trying to kill people. That's a good point Andrew. Because, even though let's say nobody died. Okay, because I heard a mormon make this argument, but nobody died. That's a controversy. Go okay, let's say nobody died. Are you telling me that when he fires into the crowd. That's not what he's hoping for. I mean you know fire gun into a crowd unless you're hoping to hit somebody and you're probably going to kill them. Especially with a caliber, the size of that L. Pepper box that he had that gun is on display in the church museum across from Temple Square to this very day. Now before they they modernized the visitor center. They had a different gun on display that they said was the gun Joseph Smith years well. When I saw the new gun, the opened up the after the renovation I went up and ask somebody at the at the museum. Why is there a different gun on display? Well didn't know that there was a different gun, but I did I'd pictures of the old one as well as the new, and they are not the same it's. It's an Ethan Allen Pepper box. But the barrel on the original gun was significantly longer than the barrel on this gun. That is now on display. And I. Had someone from the Church eventually contact me on? That may admitted that I was right at is a gut the different gone, but that the one on display now is the one that Joseph Smith did us. Even though for years, the sign on the other guns said it was the one that was is. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter Joseph Smith was trying to cause bodily harm to his attackers. Now if a Mormon wants to say, he was a martyr. Using a very general definition of what a martyr is, and that is someone who dies for a cause. I guess a more than probably could get away with that because Smith they would argue. The only reason he died was because of the cause of mormonism and what he stood for. I would rebut that by saying well. It was really more than that. It was his bad behavior and boneheaded decisions that kind of led to his death. But if they want to say, he's simply a person who died for the cause. I guess you would almost have to allow them that kind of a definition, but here's where I say there's a problem. Joseph Smith said he was going as a lamb led to the slaughter. Does that language salad familiar a lamb. There are Mormon historians that have used that language to compare Joseph Smith to the death of Christ himself. Now there I definitely have to draw a line because certainly Jesus did not go with any act of violence or even a struggle. Towards the Cross, he complied in every way possible. And so to use language like that and perhaps draw connection to Jesus himself I. Find personally to be very offensive. But they do have a very high view of him because when you end up looking at the way they I mean. There's accounts that seemed to indicate that almost as if you're going to stand bef- for judgment before the Trinity and Joe Smith. Well. They probably wouldn't say trendy, but they do say that Joe. Smith is supposed to be one of the judges for all mankind. If Joseph Smith as you to go into the celestial kingdom. You're going to be doing good, so there are statements for Mormon leaders who have said that Joseph Smith is going to have some say as to where mankind is going to end up in the next life. So when they when they picture, and they described this event that happened a hundred and seventy six years ago. They they revere what happened to Joseph Smith. He was a martyr for the cause. He's someone who was faithful to the end. And yet we see that the actions that led up to this were not exactly godly. They were cover up That's more selfish not. I mean that's the the. Exact opposite of what we'd call godly. That's not putting God first entrusting in. It was damaged control to protect his own image. I agree totally I think you're absolutely correct on that Andrew and I think if a latter day saint was to carefully look at why these men felt it necessary to expose Joseph, Smith and they look at some of the charges that they were raising against Joseph Smith's behavior and claims his lies for instance I would think beden honest ladder say would have to at least. Admit. They had a case. In why they were concerned with Joseph Misbehavior because this is not what we would expect to be the behavior of a godly man, a prophet if you will who is getting information from God on how to guide Christ's only true church. I think most latter day saints. If they were honest enough to read what happened in the final days of Joseph, Smith's life would probably see and maybe even. Agree that the men who put the. Together had a point. And this is this is the part that when you come upon a latter day saint. The the account that they don't know. This is the part that is. They know the against the way you worded it. The Romanticized version of this. And yet? There's a lot there to cosby. Say you know what there's. There's some reason to question. Now in living in twenty first century, America, looking back and say well. You know that kind of frontier. Justice makes me uncomfortable as well and I would agree I've often said publicly bat, the mob whatever their intentions were certainly should not have gone to the degree of chilling Joseph. They were there merely to arrest him to try to get some kind of bounty on him in another county somewhere. Alright, that happened all the time, but here here's where I have often had this question Andrew we only know that Joseph. Smith fired defensively because that's what the Mormon Church tells us. Did, he really fire defensive layer could've been at Joseph Smith may have been the first to fire. See I don't know this and the record that Mormons have to read coming from their own sources mainly makes it look like Joseph Smith was responding to gunfire. How do we know I don't and this is? There's all sorts of questions in my mind regarding how this whole thing came down because you probably very will wear and that in times like this things happened very quickly. And sometimes when they're recounted afterwards, the time line isn't always as precise as it probably could be or should be so what really happened on that day at that time period when the the gunfire goes back and forth I have a lot of questions about that well, we really don't know because I think that. Most of our accounts that we have of what happened. Come from the Mormon Church. Correct and the people who were there from the Mormon Church? We I don't know of any and I could be wrong, but I don't know of any documentation that gives the account of the mob that were. Or of any investigation now this seems strange to us in our in our day and age because you had someone who is who was killed in a jail cell. There be an investigation, but again in a frontier they might not do anything like that, and so when we look at this, it's not necessarily going to be what we would expect today. And we really don't have that. Being done where people start to investigate and ask questions and things like this, and therefore most of the documentation comes from a bias source. I would say you're absolutely correct. Of course, the history of the church certainly shows it's bias when it talks about the persecutions, and they were at, and I think I should mention there entered the persecutions against the LDS people many of them were very real, and they were wrong, but it's not like. The Mormons just took it on the Chin many times the Mormons did retaliate especially when they were in Missouri. They call it the Missouri War and. So, conflict that Missouri gave a county to the people to live kind of like what we'd call reservation, which I'm not agreement of that I think is an American you should be able to have the freemen live wherever you want. But they gave them a county and said Hey, you guys go live over there, and then we'll get along okay. Well the problem, of course you have so many more coming into the area. They start to go over the borders of that county, and of course some worms in one of you know, stay in that confined area. And so conflict breaks out, and so it's not like. The Mormons didn't cause some of their own problems. Joseph Smith certainly didn't help the situation. Win Sydney ridden. Who was his right hand? Man at the time gives his July fourth or ration- and talks about exterminating missourians. I mean he used the word. Exterminate Mormons like to use that word because that was a word that that bogs used. The Governor Boggs used the Warren exterminate now he's the word extermination later on, but it was Sydney ridden, who called it a war of extermination as July, fourth or ration- now. What did Joe Smith Duda to kind of smooth all that over? He has the July fourth or radiation printed as a pamphlet. And distributed publicly. If you're a local living in Missouri at that time. What would you think about that? You would look at that as a threat, so that didn't help Joseph did not help. In a lot of the tension that was going on between his people and the locals at that time. He was not a help at all. And and this is one of the things that I see as you look even at the account that the LDS Church gives of Joseph Smith. They say he's godly. They say he's a martyr. And yet you see a lot of ungodly behavior. If there was no issue with polygamy at the time if it was as the latter day, saints try to argue that this was a care for the. The for the Widows Care, for women who didn't have enough husbands. If that's the case, why did it needs to be covered up? which is really the central part of what brought about his death? If had that event never happened, he may never been A. he would never be arrested. He would never have been killed at that time in that way at least maybe something different, but. The reality is is that. That event was not a Godly Act. Correct and that is problematic because he isn't behaving in a way that most people would think would be the way a man of God should act and and the point about covering up the polygamy aspects. Consider the fact that. Polygamy was announced publicly. Until eighteen fifty two smith has been already dead for several years. The Mormons have finally moved out to Utah. And now it's going to be announced in a special conference in August of eighteen fifty two, and at that point it becomes public knowledge, so you can think of how many years went by people, not being told that this was actually going on from their own lips, and if it wasn't illegal, what was what was the shame was the problem. Yeah basically, it was illegal. Since eighteen, sixty, two Lincoln signed that moral active, but as I said it wasn't being enforced at the time, but later on. Other laws would come up and they would start to enforce them making it necessary for the LDS church to come up with manifesto of eighteen ninety, which was a document by Wilford Woodruff. Who is the president at that time at told a federal government that they were no longer practicing polygamy, and they would not be married any more people into plural marriage relationships. Now it wasn't true. They were still doing it secretly again but that's what they told federal government. That's why it was necessary in nineteen. Oh, four for another case to come up which the Mormons responded with the second manifesto. Would I often call the now? We really mean it manifesting. and. After nineteen o four with the Reed smoot hearing and who was a? Utah running for public office, and the controversy of placing him in that office because of the Polygamy in Utah. They had to finally say okay. This has got to stop in. The church came out with a manifesto nineteen, zero four, and that's when they really got serious. If you're found practicing polygamy, you would be excommunicated from the church now. What did that do? That ended up causing a lot of those who were excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ latter-day Saints. Form splitter groups of. Latter, Day saints that we now call fundamentalist Mormons now I know President Gordon B Hinckley didn't like that term, but basically that's how they came to be known as fundamentalist Mormons, they belong to groups who do believe and some practice Laura Marriage to this day. We see them all over the place in Utah Yeah. We we would see them when you and I would go to the Mannheim. Miracle Pageant and do evangelism. They would be looking to evangelize the Mormons to. Her to get back into. What they thought was the more. Mormon view so. Let's wrap up. Could you explain for folks who you know resources that you have it more research ministry? We've you've Kinda referred to and we played a commercial for viewpoint on mormonism. That's a podcast. Anyone who wants to get more I listened to viewpoint on mormonism Monday through Friday. It's it's short. It's about fourteen minutes in length they are the amount of material they pack into fourteen minutes is incredible. There's I don't know of a single episode of ever listened to. That hasn't taught me something. Even if it's something okay. I knew something reminds me, but the the series that you did bill with this new history book that came out just blew my mind with the changes that occurred. And whether someone has. The openness in their admitting a lot of things that earlier history books were reluctant to tell you and so. There's certainly a should say there certainly a lot that they still did not say in the new history there was a lot they did say that I was even surprised. Yeah, I mean I I. Just I can't recommend enough viewpoint on mormonism. Even folks. If you say well, Hey I. Don't have any more than friends I. Don't know anything. The. Just the way that you're going to hear them. Lay things out is actually a good example because one of the things I really appreciate about bill and Eric is the fact that was when they discuss something mormonism primarily, but when they discuss it, they really try to be fair with the details. Hope you heard that throughout this episode that it isn't trying to attack, but but and definitely not attack the people, but the teachings and they try to give a fair evidence of things, and they're getting their stuff from official Mormon documents most of the time, and so it's very interesting podcast I recommend you. Fourteen minutes of your day. You're GONNA learn something but I've I'm gonNA link some other articles in as well build the US SM- articles on your website on the final moments at Carthage, jail, and the death of Justice Smith the untold. Story of the death of Joseph Smith and When we look at at what you have available, let folks know what kind of things you have available, and also mention or ask you dimension how people can get in touch with you to be able to have you and eric come to their church and educate churches on what's what is known as the Church Churches Christ latter-day Saints. We've we've spoken at a number of churches all over the country, even the world and on this subject, and they can easily get ahold of us. One of the easiest email addresses contact at m., r., M. Dot Org. But our our website has a lot of articles. Many of them have were originally published in our newsletter called mormonism researched. It comes out every other month, and there's a place on our website that you can sign up for that as well as you can. Hear all the radio programs I simply go into 'em. R. Dot Org Slash podcast. That'll take you to a page. Page where you'll see an archive of all, our past radio shows as well but we have a number of articles dealing with the history and the doctrine of the movement. just tons of stuff. This thing is it's a monster huge, and well you figure. We've been doing this for over forty years under, so we've got a lot of material there that to disseminate and. That's the thing that. I always appreciate you. Guys have not just said Okay Hey. We did this research from years ago. Let's just stop. You are constantly. Researching constantly looking for new material, and that's what why I. I've really turned to what you guys are doing to learn more. What's happening in mormonism because it has? From years ago. It's changed radically to point where when I have the the Mormon missionaries who are usually the late teenagers You know they do not know anything of what mormonism was when I studied at twenty years ago. Because the church denies that stuff now. We are just hasn't been emphasized and I'm always I'm always cautious to just let. To try it to air on the side of caution by saying well they. The missionaries probably have never heard this because it hasn't been emphasized to them I. Know Some Christians have talked to me and they'll say well. The missionaries lied to me I got well. Be careful about that can be. They just didn't know or they were passing on misinformation. Not Realizing it was misinformation so I'm always trying to err on the side of caution I. Don't see. See the more people as enemies i. have come across more INS sometimes they're self proclaimed apologists who've lied to me and I've caught him and you know life, but most of the time I find. That's not the case that many Mormons I think are very sincere about what they believe and they've heard some things that they think is true, but unfortunately haven't heard the other side to show that. Maybe what they thought is true is not quite the way. Well a of them don't study and one of the things I. Know You know very well, but when pressured they always fall back to a testimony of feeling, they had a burning in the bosom something that they can relate to. I, had one gentleman who are used to go to college with, and I used to evangelize him when I was in college. He later in touch with me. He's a Mormon and he he basically when I pressured him on some things he swore I. Know the Mormon Church is true because. I was I should have been. He said I was a paramedic. I was on a trampoline I fell I should have died, but I had my protective undergarments on, and therefore I know the Mormon church is true because those garments protected me and I'm alive today. I heard stories like that. My response question is really how many Latter Day saints die in Car accidents every year wearing their garments. Unfortunately, I've heard you say that and I didn't have that at the time. So Bill! Thank you for coming on. Thank you for the Ministry of Mormon Research Ministry. I I know that I have an appreciation for for men like you. Eric men like Justin Peters. Who who spend their time studying? These people that drive me nuts to study and. I studied mormonism, but only for a few years. and. It would get me to pull my hair out. It's frustrating to see people so deceived, and then those that are teaching people the deception. It's very difficult work for many of us and for someone like yourself. Who Sticks at this long-term? Just becomes an invaluable resource for the church to understand the attacks. We get from a latter-day saints. And I know they believe they're the ones being attacked, but. I. Believe Christianity came out first, and they're the ones that said that Christianity fell away. I. Kind of think that they're the ones doing the attacking the even though they say they are Christian, so that aside, but I really appreciate all the work that you do in any last words that you have for the audience. Now I would ask them to pray for US and other Christians that are here in the State of Utah Naturally. We are the minority group out here and I think sometimes that's kind of good but there are a lot of Christians who have moved purposely to Utah to be missionaries to the more than people. Even if they don't have a, you know five. Oh One C. Three Corporation behind them, they do see this as a mission field, and there is certainly a growing number of good Bible believing churches out here and just pray for us out here because this is definitely a mission field and. End with this is I. Want to encourage you. guys go to email contact at 'em dot org. Have Bill Eric out to your. Church said they can educate folks. But because the you're gonNA, have some Mormons wherever you're living. You may not have as many as they are in Utah, but let me let you know. The impact more researches has had the Mormon Church used to have these pageants every year and and Bill mckeever with some others decided they'd start to use these pageants to Evangelize, and if you look at where they have those pageants, those areas have the lowest areas of Mormons in the State of Utah. They've now shutdown. Those pageants and a lot of us believe that it's the work of bill mckeever Eric Johnson and many others who have been faithfully evangelizing there for years so when he asked for prayer. Pray for them. The Mormons seclude themselves a lot of times as as most colts do from anyone on the outside unless there vandalizing so there especially, in Utah where you have a majority of people that are going to be latter day saint. Order for them to come out of that, and that's why I encourage you to to support them. If you can there, there is a way on the website to support them. Support them. Get their newsletter. See what's happening. Find out when they're going to be in your area and go to one of their talks. I've been privileged to be able to to hear both of them. Both bill and Eric Speak I've been I've been privileged to be invited on a cruise that they did when they didn't apologize crews and I was one of the speakers and I. Really that's where I really got to know them very well. Well and see the heart of these men those of you. Who are my audience? You know that there may know lots of people, but there's few people that I will really try to to build relations with because I do that with people. I find as genuine. You're not going to get more genuine than bill, mckeever and Eric Johnson great guys. I highly highly recommend the work. They're doing so go to MRI. Dot Org checkout what they have I really hope that this has been educational for you especially. If you didn't have an understanding of warm, made Pique your interest I often say mormonism. The Book Mormon is Great, science fiction. Because I put more in that category, but it's it is something that is very intriguing religion when you study it out, and they have a ton of material dot org, so check them out bill. Thanks for coming on and until next week. Remember to strive to make today attornal day for the glory of God, and that's a wrap. This podcast is part of return to ministry for more content requests. The speaker seminar to your church. Attorney Dot Org.

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Rewind: Rules for Interpreting Historical Narratives, Part 4

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report Daily

02:00 min | 1 year ago

Rewind: Rules for Interpreting Historical Narratives, Part 4

"They. took the Rep. Delia? Where we provide a quick biblical interpretations and applications. Is a ministry of striving for eternity. As we continue to look at the methods of interpreting God's word. We are spending this week looking at historical narratives and we've been addressing this one because of so much abuse that happens with. One of the things we were going over. Is the rules specifically for this style of literature. We said that when we look at historical narrative, we must remember that they don't directly teach doctrine. They could sometimes, but that is not always their purpose. We saw that historical narratives record. What did actually happen? Not What should happen? We saw that historical narratives don't always include a statement of whether something is good or bad weather. It should be practiced or voided. We also must understand that. Historical narratives are not allegories with hidden in meetings, and this is on you see people doing often. They try to look for some secret meaning in the historical narrative, as if it had to have some special spiritual purpose that has special meaning to people, so you'll have someone like Joseph Smith, seeing reference to two sticks that the scriptures tell us that these two branches are the two branches of the Israelites and yet they will take that and say. Say Well. That's the Bible in the book of Mormon. They give it a hidden meeting. That had no understanding for thousands of years. This is on that you'll see them do and so we must realize that it doesn't have some secret meaning it also to be understood that these stories are about God first and foremost, and that's the purpose of a historical narrative is podcast is part of the for Attorney Administration for more content or to request a speaker seminar to your church. Attorney Dot Org.

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Hofman and the Salamander (Live)

The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds

1:22:15 hr | 1 year ago

Hofman and the Salamander (Live)

"You're listening to the Central America's refund. You literally someone last night midget how they missed this back. Jesus had ever do the story in American history. Gary Threat with the topic will be about come cool. Give him a ring guys. Let's keep text message. What did they say? Someone liked instagram. Really testing we gotta stop and the dull is brought to you in part by squarespace. You guys know scarce basis website hosting company and much much more We of course at the DOLLOP love squarespace my personal website day. Anthony Calming squarespace. Aguirre's website I don't know what it is a squarespace our sources page squarespace. And of course our regular old podcast page squarespace. That's how much we like squarespace. That's how into his. I got in squarespace because the templates super clean looking very easy to use great functionality. I think the word is and you can do whatever you want on there you. Can you know you got the whole thing? Setup all in one domains websites online store marketing tools. You could showcase your work. Let's we like to do like to put my workup. He can publish products off all kinds of stuff. Whatever you do it's all there it's squarespace it's happening. It's really easy to use. Twenty four seven customer service which believes award winning which. I don't know what can awards they give out but they're winners so I really like it. I really like the templates. They just look really nice and and it's easy. Is that the most important thing I think it is to me. Smooth and easy. Yeah so here's where you can go to. Squarespace can play around with the pages for a little while. See if you like it and then if you like it well you go to squarespace dot com slash dollar per free trial and when you're ready to launch use offer code to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. We are also brought to you by stamps. Dot Com look. We're staying in right now. 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Mormon so fucking in His father had been brought to Utah from Switzerland as an infant and his mother was born into Mormon polygamy after its abolishment. Okay that doesn't happen anymore anymore. Mark's father sold office machines. Specific in Salt Lake City didn't make a lot of money but he was happy knowing he was raising a family. Devoted to Moma's good mark underwent intensive indoctrination quote from nursery school. Anwer children were instructed about the divine origin and absolute truth of the Book of Mormon and talk that their church was God's only true church they were members of a chosen people who who all tracks mark thrilled his parents when he was six reciting long passages for Mormon scripture word for word sounds fun childhood that does sound really want blocks trains but also. Isn't it fun to just memorize words? You don't understand and it's just it's not creepy and all six hundred remotely creepy. He would also sing. I want to go on a mission nonstop which I do too. I'm sure they could break out and right now. I'm picturing ages to omission because anything a baby go. How many Mormons discovered like anal? When they're on this you know there's a glory hole by the lawyers line is Find out what is on the other side at twelve like all Mormon children. He was ordained as a deacon in the Iran Iran ICK Brotherhood ironic by fourteen. He was a teacher. Sorry hold on Deacon. A twelve year old is like talking to me. I'll be like buddy locating or go pay scale. What are you talking about putting tell you where you're going to tell me where? I'm going out of here by fourteen. He was a teacher good. I definitely know comfortable at sixteen. He was a priest. Jesus Christ Doogie Howser a more normal or is this guy. Who's that's wild to those of us who it's not normal at nine year old Danish Jesus his hand twenty one hundred God's pocket Frank Sinatra leg when I was twenty one nineteen or deigned as fucked up word as elders in the melt. Chesney priesthood lateral movement. There's an upgrade. I think that's a big. I guess I'm just going to picture. It like starfleet with different colored old. Gca. Yes what does and doesn't sound randomly made up at all found place and people start pressing you a lot of the flight thinking you know. There's another one holy Shit Napkins place. My Lord have sweated my scrotum. He didn't have many close friends and was that was his lifestyle. Is Not what we're peers want to be around you? He was bookish introverted. He was forced to bushes introverted style. No it's the four style. What he was into not pushing back. He was a bad student but was into magic chemistry electronics. Stamp and coin. Quick One person tickled by his parents. Were convinced that he was destined to become a authority. One of the eighty five men who ran the Mormon Church general just a number of naturally mark went to Bristol. It went for his mission. Will you want about gentleman? I understand you've had a few of those pilots but I like to talk to you about him in Jersey. What the law enforcement. Oh boy you guys are really weird looking over here fuck off. We've gone good think no not yet punching. Yeah we pies people. Should you punch and cutthroats? We live in a the body London kid going. Wow he was impressed me right to his parents brag about all the baptisms performed and then he was going into libraries and bookstores and replacing. Anti Mormon boats. Mormon books. That'll do it too. Fucking bad boy. That's kind of bad boy right. All those Anti Mormon books in England rebellious though also spent a Lotta time in bookstores looking for rare tax. Hoping that he could find one that would make him rich. Okay not tell his parents. He spent most of his time reading. Fawn Brodie's noman does my history after it was published. Bodey was excommunicated from the LDS Church guessing. This was not positive perspective. Right so Margaret. Turn to Salt Lake and nineteen seventy-six. Were holding signs. The only time I wanted to go on a mission every time we come here airport like fucking amish people fly grade. It was a great walk. How are can I was like nothing? There's no way they could way. Yeah I've seen big love and knockers. Burger whatever he returned to Salt Lake City in nineteen seventy six went to Utah State University. While he was there he met Judy Smith he had been called into on it her faithfulness lady a better meet cute testing a religious devotion. She was the first wimp woman he ever dated. Or kissed this one ends in marriage conversely I touch your wiener. You're like well we should just forever. We should be doing. You did do it. He has risen quote. Mark was shied ill and he's with people an introverted premed student who wore the same dark suit and tidy classes that he wore as a missionary. He spent hours in the library reading history books and old historical documents. Something catch. Yeah for sure. Anyone has shown up in the same smelly sued. Just go to the library tractive. Seven months later they were engaged now. Marks parents were not down with it. Because Judy wanted to be a journalist and they believe. Mormon women should only marry and have kids. Well it's a different. His theory developed out. Judy mark fought over their religion. Judy gave mark back the engagement. Ring eight days before they were to be married. They still dated for two years. That's a weird downgrade people who wish they could downgrade. I've enjoyed the test drive. I don't really purchase again. Can I take a couple more? Spins around the block. They finally broke up in August. Nineteen seventy-nine judy quote. We broke up because of differing views of the LDS religion. Mark Profess to be an atheist. Wait wait he's the monarch. He felt the religion was a very tail and he wanted all Mormons to know that they've been misled. Today we're involved in a false charge. And there was no god that'll be and his and his and his parents were like she's not religious enough. Meanwhile he's the what is just like come on. Let's see we got a brisk cool? Awesome focused jazz. You've got to try it so six weeks later. Mark met and married doorly. Oh Lord Yeah. It didn't take long. Yeah that's Jim. Warren rebound him and his little play for the Jazz. But at this point. Yeah no well. This is the point to where you're not just holding hands intertwined fingers and thumb rubber stuff like that really like maybe going to third base on the hand action. Yeah finger the palm you can. Which is actually what the crucifixion to April Nineteen Eighty Darlie came home. One day and mark was looking at an old cambridge was an inside. He found a piece of paper stuck in the pages brittle stuck in the things. Some people someone's you're GonNa have to the Cambridge Bible coverage it was brittle old and folded in half open it up and inside was the signature of Joseph Smith junior founder of mormonism. That's what it's wait a minute. Is He Joseph Smith Joseph Smith about putting the system on trial? The guy to go the place Leonard that guy to mark took it to the curator of Utah State University Special Collection of rare documents books and the curators compared the signature to other Joseph Smith Junior senators and said they were very similar. The letter had Egyptian hieroglyphics on the outside happening. Don't WANNA I don't WanNa know what the fuck happened to the religion there will be. I don't WanNa know. Don't ever tell me and on the outside. It was an oath from justice junior explaining the symbols. The curator believe mark just found the anthem. Transcript mic drop. It was the first segment of the translated golden plates which Justice Smith Junior later turned into the book of form. Release something up until this point. Mormons only had a description of what the symbols look like ridden by Charles. Anthony Van Okay. So this is a big fine fine. I'll give you now Missouri. The reorganized church which is a separate. You're so close. Tend to save big. You can't just were there. Different a metal. They were church split off. They were started by. Joseph Smith third claiming he owned the Anthon transcript but it had symbols. That didn't match the non description. While marks fit the description to a team so Marxist better than when got at the REBA reauthorized region Zuri. Sure sure and all sounds very likely. The curator said he felt the same sort of satisfaction than Howard Carter had when he appeared in the King Tut's tomb and said I see things wonderful things but I think but it had to be that occasion. It was taken to the church. Historical Department's best known expert on handwriting and Old Documents Dean Jesse. Who LOOKED PRETTY COOL? You said that appeared real but he needed more time to be positively told mark to keep his secret toes authenticated. Don't tell anybody that. Big OF A fucking deal Margaret. Meeting told his mother and Father Course. GotTa gossip huge big deal. You can keep that quiet. I found a thing. That's not real soon soon. Jesse declared the documents legitimate and Taller reporter quote. It is impossible to conclude that anyone other than Joseph Smith wrote this. That's not a hundred percent. Though it is one hundred been fucking authenticated again because there's some wiggle room and steadily big snake. It is impossible to conclude that eating other than Joseph Smith wrote this. It's not airtight. Mark immediately became an overnight Mormon celebrity. Oh Boy House that's how you become seriously market. His father went to Chicago to track the line of ownership of the transcription and they traced it to. Joseph Smith JR JUNIOR'S SISTERS GRANDDAUGHTERS. Who confirmed her mother probably sold by accident? You're selling stuff you haven't garage sale. Just you put everything on the pile. And then we'll see you sold the translator religion. It happens in two thousand times with this market. Officially found the Illegitimate Anthon. Transcript de legitimate. Like that's it. That's the real deal rising. He traced it back. And then the main guys like. Yeah it's real okay. Now nell it now. He wanted so he was given five dollar. Mormon gold coins minted eighteen fifty a first edition book of Mormon and other early Mormon money all worth about twenty thousand dollars. I Guess Mormons don't actually give you money back. Yeah Bill. Thank you guys been worth. I can swap. Meet Mark then dropped out of school to be an old book dealer. Full-time well documented either way. I mean that's a lot of people do. It didn't take long February sixteenth. Nineteen anyone mark found a photocopy of a faded eighteen forty four letter. With Joseph Smith Junior signature he gave it to the chief archivist in Salt Lake City. Who purchased documents on behalf of the Mormon Church? The letter was a blessing from Joseph Smith. Junior what do you believe you sound? Very convinced. Fucking amazing and a designated his son Joseph Smith third as his true successor way but that is that the one who did Missouri. That's the split the bad way are LDS right. The reclamation cold reorganized great man manage one. Yeah they basically didn't they. Were basically no polygamy and really all comes down to polygamy right that line in the sand is like how can you have a lot of wives right? That's like fuck a lot. The one live another play is that good will be so pissed off at you. All be getting a lot of fucking clocks. That's the idea. I can't belie- everything else. We agree on. This is crazy. This is absolutely crazy. You can only get one. Oh here we go. The truth comes out does it. Finally you've revealed yourself. I'll have you know I'd have wives lining up to be married. You think that's funny. Good luck I might get tap out about two to three times. You'll come crawling back when you can only get one or two wives. You know you'll go crawling back. The one wife very consistent in double digits. Oh okay you're going. To BE TEN EFFORTS DESERT LOLLIES FUCK CAMP. Houston joined the Church of bullies. Not Polygamy because this is a real police Lord my Lord above his great great he wants to fuck all the women we only been like. God gave me a plate except I saw that play. That was your head writing. That was barely a plate. Dinner Play with foil on it. You didn't even do your homework if you're going to do something like that'd be convincing mailing it in an elvis plate barely said it. We found their flex recoiled. Pieces of your pocket. You are just trying to beg a lot of wise so many of them. Velva that Shit. Oh my God come desert you stand with her Utah. Oh right around here rank four. That's what I was saying. It's where it all began. It's where it all began asshole so aging forties so some of the Mormon church splinter groups the LDS bring young and the L. D. S. Who Post polygamy the LDS? Brigham young destroyed all the evidence of Joseph Smith Junior ordaining. His son is the man. This made mark's new document the only proof in existence okay. It was called the blessing. Sure the chief Mormon archivist balked at the price he was like. I'm not fucking paying that much money. But then he discussed it with an elder quote. It was decided that the church should attempt to obtain the document president. Tanner's words where we need it. How much do something to that effect? Wait how much they want for the Doug. How much they want that. So the more the cheaper marcus went back to mark and told the mistake we want. Okay Awesome blessing. Mark said he'd already met with the art historian offers out to other religions. Yeah is a very interesting really and the scientologist? They want. Everything forgiveness Tom Cruise. They're going to this particular old we can just throwing up on a pile so the rds offer was traded for the their book of Commandments. With Forty K. A. Elders DISCUSS INSIDE. It was quote violent. They make a counter offer the chief Mormon archivist and another I have met with Mark Physics Free agents yet. It's fucking crazy. They met with Martin one hour before his meeting with L. They told Mark that quote. He owed it to his church to save it from the embarrassment. It would cost us the other really going to mormonism when she doesn't believe it all right. Yeah that's true some money magazine. Dr Are Okay did he announce ESPN in front of a bunch of children and then he went straight to our story told how much LDS Church wanted for the Essex. We've put yeah. We're but then he agreed he that are on. This guy said Gotti time time to authenticate it and then he gave a photocopy at a copy of it in the market median. He told Elliot's interest. Okay weird right and for that. He got a first edition book of Mormon. Start off with the good stuff at an eighteen sixty Mormon gold coin a pattern used in the minting of the coin and four pieces of rare Mormon currency altogether. Twenty thousand and he really worth anything. Because it's all fake Shit. You're giving each other. It's literally like a dragon. Value is not real because none of it is real just like using a man about it who listens. It'd be just the fuck. Just go to the Vatican and be like okay just fucking screwing people in years. Well let's use terms the LDS story found about the sale from a reporter and he called the LDS and ask for a certified copy make public now the point those are the people know so they can keep it a secret right so they offered it to the our audience stories a gift. Okay and the next day of the New York Times printed a story about the blessing shirt story right okay. Headline Moruban document raises doubts on succession of translators It's full of quotes from unidentified sources the LDS then held a conference in Utah to bring the blessing to the public anyway. So huge huge they were forever from over seventy countries they really found out omission thing. I definitely guys in the back explained. The Justice Smith Wanted Church session to pass through the Council of Twelve Apostles not bloodlines. We all agree with that. What was not said that mark had just come back to the LDS with a short letter addressed to Brigham Young. That would blow the Church Wide Open weight. So they're giving his big thing about he's got another thing he's got to bring them in bomb. Wow okay a lot of balls and this letter. The writer condemned Brigham Young for taking Joseph Smith. Third title bless quote. I will not surrender. That blessing knowing what it certain fate will be if I return. Ps Four but my hand smarts. Can we talk privately able to take a break visit? Tweet my fucking hand I just killing me. I have to let our crazy ethic newletter. Can we talk driving? What did you WanNa talk about a hand guy so the oldest this new letter for mark he promised not to tell anyone Sure yeah I maybe. A an anonymous source pop-up ago The letter was put in the first presidency's bolt which I'm sure it's in Nicholas Cage is going installment obviously and is right there. It's in the fall so mark. All of a sudden started finding documents everywhere. Really good about that at all season just to see some back. Yes Oh for sure yeah. It's him. Nicholas Cage really is to this great so I can't believe that there would be any bullshit involved. I know van a letter. From one of Justice Ms Converts and then Collector Red Ashworth traded twenty seven thousand dollars documents signed by George Washington Abraham Lincoln Robbery. Leave for the letter mark. Martin made another amazing find. Aspiration was inside himself. I found God. He looks like that guy who plays down out of the street for money but he's right. This was signed by Lucy Mack Smith Joseph. Smith's junior's mother and quote described graphically the coming forth of not hit published book of Mormon. So it's like a Pre Mormon. Yeah no it's a pretty good again. It's Prequel it's a press release shirt right. It's a teaser teaser. So mark traded Ashworth four poster more. Never seen a read it. We'll see we'll be do. We have seen dame's terrible at this time and we just said we couldn't you did you. Did you just think we couldn't things you're right? Let's see I think we should see that when it comes out today. So ashworth buys this one also. He brings both arguments the church. The church then has a second conference to address the new lines and as anybody flagging this fucking early crazy now. Ashworth is now a celebrity like mark because he brought the documents mark mixtures. Everyone however knows that he found the shirt compared himself. God well we all were at our head. But that's they say they're not allowed museum. Mark was the dog's name and cinemark has direct access to members of the first presidency. Which is a huge deal. He's gotta be like this. Is Crazy found another David when it rains enforced when she took directly to? Elliot's President. Gordon Hinckley who offered him fifteen thousand dollars. I don't know I mean I guess I could take fifteen grand sure when reporters asked how much how mark kept finding all these documents. He was vague. He said it was hard work in. There's a network good dealers. Tipsters lobby blogs artwork. Right Right Bullshit smartphone. Another letter from justice. Nick Junior this one this all over the place detector more letters this. Lds into a panic because implied justice in junior practice black magic which was a huge fucking. No this is this is this is. This is what happens. It's just a different version of the culture. But it's like you've got to keep doing yourself so you've dropped enough bombs now now you've got to be like also he was an evil bucking. I know I'm as baffled as you guys I had to go to a Lotta tipsters and trade stores to find this one but it turns out. This guy was crazy. Fire Tattoo on his states. That you know such a big deal yeah authenticated without anyone untrustworthy finding out so mark you the perfect guy in New York yes. Trust the trust mark with you. Don't want it to go to anyone. Untrustworthy Mike but he went to Charles Ham. One of the most prominent autograph dealers was considered the nation's preeminent detector forged documents. Fbi agents used his book to Understand Common. Now but wait. Mark takes it there this? He's got huge box. I mean that I believe Hamilton declared it authentic and worth ten thousand dollars quote but the Church will probably pay twenty five thousand. Just doesn't get burn it and there. It is Mark Heavily for fifteen thousand dollars and then he leaked the info about the letter to the press and other document collectors including Ashworth. Now Ashworth did. He was a huge Mormon so he did not actually WanNa know about the black magic letter but mark told him anyways holding relies on me not knowing that so it shakes his face to the core. Sure so he needs to restore it. So what do you do? You need your faith store at your guy. Well you probably need to find a letter. So he went to the church and look at one of the most valued. Mormon letters that were there. Joseph Smith final letter to his wife written in the Carthage Jail. And he's like this is beautiful move. Faith is restored comes back and tells mark about what happened. Says this is such a Joyous Day? Mark says you know what know about the second. Carpet Schiller. No I'm this is getting crazy. The second one he takes it all back. He's just retracting everything might added. Marc Ashworth is like I got to have that letter. Marx's look I'll find it but it's getting harder easier so viewing senator mark comes back but he's got a different movies. The CARTHAGO letter okay. The letter reveal justice matthews black magic but also revised the story of Joseph Kennedy Junior discovering the plates. What's this is really? I mean I'm not Mormon and I'm starting to be offended pluck. We're poking fun. This guy is fundamentally shifting storyline. It is literally just blowing it all. I think they're Joseph. Smith had a twin Joey Joseph yes and they had a lightning war. Fuck gets right here on this letter. Nup Bullshit let her off lightning fight and that's when he beat Joey who now lives in the center of Earth which we now know to be. God's prison mind money so so he's got this new letter. The Mormon Church now launchers believes that the Angel Gabriel. They believe that he's who should just play right right but it was lightly use the bloodhound from the sky. That's boy this my boss. It here to hear what is it. Boy There's something down the soil new religion. What are you talking about come? Poli what the sheet some. Listen dinner where down here. No no this one says fucker budget lady no no even Madonna. I told me who you can't sees an apparition we should all wear. Chatham stand up these the later place. This is not a good phase. This works as a ball gag. You definitely have looked leave. Give me a little space place road. I mentioned this is a separate whole. No don't read. That one says beat this is. I don't know why IT'S A. It's a question mark. Which is equally puzzling check. Yes no box okay. So the newletter. Since then it wasn't angel job of late Garbage Man White Salamander Madelynn Salamander. I don't even know their natural color but that nobody does. That's still while he showed. Actually of course it's going to be white. He shows the letter Nash. Worth who read it and said Mark? I don't want this. You can't let anybody except the church habit. No picture of his penis. No collect your shock to explain something like this. My Art Mark now Martin noses the super explosive letter so yeah he thinks anyone that goes to the first presidency's office with the letter is going to be considered an extortionist right so he doesn't want to go of course no he shouldn't go so he finds a middleman Morona. Do it in finds a middleman who brings it into an ass for a ten dollar Mormon Gold coin which is worth a hundred dollars. I know I. You GotTa do you. GotTa you gotTa take one of those coins to at Thomas Cook or so just like how much American Mormon Either American. It's worth about fifteen bucks. Okay one hundred thousand. Hegley Says No. So what about the forty thousand book of Commandments? And he was like no so mark. Nunez Gauchan Martin. That was going to happen. Point intensive peace original scripture. Guy Film in is going to happen. They just want to see how the church react in the letter. The church is now worried that the middleman we'll tell the public about the salamanders public funds came over and so mark suggested a wealthy church member by it and then donated the Church and then everyone will be apparently. That's a solution. I don't fucking stand southern. Deny the salamander letter because it was given to. Oh it's still earth-shattering knew Martin knew a rich Mormon Bishop and history buff name Steven Christianson. He ran financial consulting firm called coordinated financial services with a guy named Gary Sheets. Christianson was described as just about as perfect as a Mormon. You can get in this world so he bought the sound for forty thousand dollars and they made mark promise not to tell anyone and he agreed then. Mark told the Mormon underground who Mormon Undergrad. Buddy Buddy Buddy Buddy. You Ain't dropping added walking away what you wear around that song the Humpty dance so they were the most hostile to the church about the letter. I forgot to look up at the moment underground. Dave believe me. I'm having fun anyway. I hope I almost want you to ruin it. I guess what I'm picturing remember Dennis leary of demolition man. No well that's what I'm the underground people live in sewers and eat rat burgers documentary but then in Utah. Mormon Undergrad. All the cameras undergarment fights back so I guess it was some Mormons who for the first persecute them and then they went underground gas. We're moving said Roy Potter. Aren't I've seen enough? I'll just picture word people so luckily after all this mark finds the Second Carthage Jail Letter finally would wouldn't is what's in it. Well he was supposed to bring into Ashworth worth remember. Yeah but he didn't essential instead. He sold into a magazine. Better Tiger beaten boosting really know that I could actually see anymore or hustler is cycle so ashworth found out about when he read it. He was furious but he's still wanted to Marcus. Marcus getting all this stuff. Getting the Lord's work done. Yes so the press through again identified sources trace the salamander letter to Christianson. Okay so the Church can statement while avoiding admitting the letter existed Church head to make a statement while avoiding admitting that the lyrics is okay. Their in venom abide abide quote all of the scores of media stories on that subject. Apparently assume that the author of that letter used the word salamander in the modern sense of entailed in. Vivian no no no no no it was Arthur Salamander man. Mormon man one wonders. Why so many writers do reveal the readers that there's another meaning of the Word Salamander? Yes a literal. Which may you may have even been the primary meeting in this context and the eighteen twenty s that meaning is a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire so they tried to steer specs or they're just like we've got a different fire tritter. A third angel is able to live in. Fire is a good approximation of the description. Just of Smith gave of Angel Moroni. Okay so that was actually pretty good. It's not it's not. What thinks salamanders are made of fire things? But if you just fucking say images keep moving if you just keep going you know if you're just like no but SAL Building Salamander. They think outdoorsman. They think of George they picked Sunny Day Sunny Day. They think dry leaves they think dry leaves sunny day. They fired when I think fire. I think maybe someone who can penetrate fire. Maybe someone not of this earth this realm from another realm entirely perhaps joe brings us right back just bidding so much they'll make sense. I'm over homeland. That the Salt Lake Messenger published an article with the headline. Marone or salamander feels like the upcoming election. The letter is authentic. It is one of the greatest evidences against the divine origin of the book of Mormon. If it's real an investigation into the letter the Guy who proved the Hitler. Diaries were fakes was brought in. He confirmed the authenticity of the Salamander. Letter what this. How is this? This is quite a forgery so now they needed to confirm the ink right so mark Renton the Ark and sorry mark is going to confirm. The Ain't no no okay. Marcus of Marxist. Got Him into money now and he goes off to New York and he's in a book so he buys first editions of Books Lewis Carroll Tolkien. Wait a minute Christian Andersen spending money spending money like crazy right friends and family now at the same time started throwing money at mark. They want to invest in his historical document. Business Shirt course and mark promised them all sixty percent return quote. Mark was seldom on time for appointments and sometimes arranged for investors to meet him late at night and then disappeared into the darkness. He can do whatever you like literally everything. That's the best kind of guy you want him. Being businesses like maybe by the bushes in the park on a bunch of letters his check bounced he suspected the irs was tapping his phone. He let days path pass before returning a phone call. I start to dress very sloppily. Investors dropped in unexpectedly at his home dory sometimes said he was gone even gets used car in the driveway and as feed part. I'm not here identity of not here anymore. I'm an apparition so mark gun. Investors also threw parties where he would brag about as a store historical knowledge and his ability to get documents. His parents were now absolutely certain that he was destined for the highest rungs of church or parents part way such a good so he's rolling in cash people are giving them money yes. He looks for housing in the coveted. Mormon neighborhood of hills while such such. Don't get mad at me. He bought it. I bought a first edition. Book of Sherlock Holmes for Twenty. Two thousand doesn't seem them. Live with a seven thousand per second edition of else else. While in ten thousand dollars for first vision of Pinocchio and Maurice Buying Loves Books by Betty Loves Pinocchio after a while. The Salamander INC was authenticated Christians Business. Now the guy bought the letter given its collapsed and his faith is shaken by the letter. Sure yet. He's still refused to sell the letter to the church. You would only donate okay. And then mark. No found the rarest document. I found a living. Joseph spent one had nothing to more minutes. And it's called the oath of a Freeman. The first document printed in the American colonies in sixteen thirty nine fifty were made none survived. It was valued at two million dollars. The Library of Congress began the process of education. Does Martin Wait Salamander? Martin emits an investor out rows to Leonard. Fifteen hundred fifty thousand dollars so he could buy the McClellan collection which is a budget documents shirt. Mormon documents market Ross son went to Texas to buy it but mark one in the house alone and then he came out empty handed. He said the seller was freaked out and he mailed it to Salt Lake City instead. Maher told our rescued bring the collection in today's but he showed up a week later until he sold the collection to the Church for three hundred thousand mark urge to keep it a secret for the sake of the church and promising to pay him back soon but payment never came so restaurants looking for mark. Mark is looking for weeks and when he finally meets the Mark Mark and find the value found him. He demanded his money. Brady mark for two hours after us on he said it was. It was the most peculiar experience. I've never been so harsh on anybody in my life and got no reaction at all. He didn't deny it he didn't get mad. Apologize or anything. He just sat there like. It didn't mean anything that's normal You know all I'm going to go into the darkness by the Library of Congress wanted to buy a freeman but needed more time to authenticate mark dropped his price to one point. Five the library to haggle so he took it to the American antiquarian society which also wanted to authenticate it. So he's not so in documents vastly thought it starts to go into a panic so he goes to the and he says he's in a really bad financial situation. How is he in a bad grades spending house but save buying a house so he tries to borrow one hundred and eighty five thousand dollars purchase? Earn the Church members now became suspicious so mark Levin that's tweets funny isn't it? This is also normal now adding up until now it's off so he goes to Christians asper loan saying he paid back once the oath sold money my businesses failing so he takes mark to elder hugh panic quote. It was as though he sends completely the potential damage which this material could cause in the hands of the enemy within minutes. He was able to arrange for mark to receive one hundred. Eighty five thousand dollars in the form of cashier's check. He was directed first. Interstate Bank to just crank out alone really fast. Can I get one of those big checks this soon after mark pullen offer for five hundred fifty thousand dollar house okay so we Christian Music News? Yes Yeah Christians and sheets pisses filing for bankruptcy So it's all falling apart. The purchase of the freemen gets pushed back again. Okay marks investors are not demanding repayment. Okay market greet to only take a million on the one point. Five million sale and Ashworth is still mad at Waren for so two the magazine like uncut gems of morning so Ashworth been talking shit about mark everywhere super bad for your rep and the document business. Sure so mark goes to Ashworth and he says I'll buy back the letter. I solely for twenty thousand way. He's so mark. Mark buys back the letter. You soul the soul dash but he bought it for one hundred sixteen thousand and then Ashra bought it back for nineteen thousand and another forty thousand documents lost fifty six thousand dollars he just by Ashcroft. Silence is resentments. Why can't I don't know find more stuff okay? Did he find God a so? Ashworth is not talking shit anymore. And then the American antiquarian society push push back even further and said they would only pay two hundred fifty thousand dollars. Wow okay. She's so Marco's altogether nine hundred and forty five thousand dollars between the IRS. Newhouse houses crazy. Different deals loans bounced checks and more right okay. Luckily he said he found a finally a second of of Freeman. He told investors in five hundred. Five hundred thousand dollars to buy over one point five nine. Three men stepped up but then they heard from a bank employees that they should watch out for mark because he was overdue on the one hundred and eighty five thousand dollars so the investors went back to markets. And we want our money back. We WanNA push it. He told him he'd have their money at the end of the day with when he didn't tell them already use it to pay back other debts. He's so he went and he had used bank account which has eighteen thousand. What that's a lot less than five. Hundred thousand he panics. He starts taking all those books and going all around town and trying to sell them but no one would buy on the spot. Oh my God he's going to be so desperate to it's going to be like he's selling drugs talking really you need to hit Tokyo Juror. One of the three investors market given the chance money to had gotten his money from an accident in which he lost his hand in his arm. Your Hands Martin. So he ends up tracking down mark just yelling at K. Mart quote responded with a blank expression blended detachment and smoke. It must be indifferent. Indifference look different. So the investor leaps across the table and quote Hoffman. Fill the fist of vessels. One good arm smashing into his face Stephen Stronger Dick who are so Christian and panic. Look for Mark for two weeks after finding out. He's selling books and panicked was mad about the unpaid loan and they found and mark told him a little bit of what was going on pieces of his financial situation. Okay so Christmases gives him a date for March transferred the McClellan collection to the church. Jeez purchased okay October. Fifteen mark starts to panic. He then tells me that he had found a missing. Joseph Smith translation of fake Golden Plate. Got Nothing left of ideas. It's beside. Its second live back so this would be massively embarrassing for the church shirt and they bought it for one hundred fifty thousand top please. The church headed in the first presidency's involved that this this skeleton Johnny Shit Right now. This whole church blows guide so mark starts getting death threats. Investors he starts he makes a will now tuber fifteenth comes and a woman who worked for Christmas and worked in. His building saw a packages door when she came to work later. The woman's Christian walk in and she recalled quote heard a loud bang in the hall started. Thought something had happened to the room itself. But you didn't know what she didn't see the nails that exploded to the door and lodged in her walls. Let's should he want. He's a Nail. That shot pastor leg grazing scanning drawing blood. All she registered was the tremendous force of the explosion. The package was a bomb. Really ask Centene nail through Christianson left eye and into his brain killing immediately. Holy Shit two hours later. Another bomb went off at the Sheet Home Kathy. The wife of Gary Sheets was the only victim. The following day mark was found next to it was blown up car. He was alive but his hand was mangled quote as if it had been inserted into a butcher's chopping machine. How you want a pound of your hand. Yeah Hurry. Four seventy nine a pound great love it his KNEECAP was blown off. Okay very specific. Near-term ruptured a shop wounds all over his body. She's now Salt Lake City freaks out document because these are dogma. Guys document dealer started fleeing the city by bravery. The bond squad got so many calls about suspicious packages that several bomb-sniffing dogs succumbed to exhaustion. We keep finding a boss. A package. Delivery man was chased and beaten after he delivered a package wrapped in Brown paper on him pajamas. Tell Him Sorry. We lifer deliveryman stuff. You can't deliver a brown package. Go on next door Marteau. The detective be open. His car door and a package fell to the floor at exploded. The door packaged thing. But an ATF. Agent heard that and said that made no sense. The bomb was on the seat. It seems like Margaret was on the see the agent said quote. If Hoffman told you that he might be your man okay though most not the bomber was disgruntled investor from sheet and Christians Business. But someone saw mark and a letterman jacket and Tear Christians. Office the day of the explosion so the police searched his house. They found a letterman jacket. But everyone in town at the same jacket. This isn't a CLUE FROM UTAH. Right. Many the detective told Mark. He knew he was a murderer. But no one believed it could be mark. Detectives trying to press charges but a federal prosecutor said. You've got the wrong man. No one could come up with a motive. Didn't make sense. George seems real obvious. In Retrospect George Throckmorton Utah Attorney. General document expert had heard of the case. He was very amused because quote there was no such thing as proof of document's authenticity. The church is like a new faulted is whole thing. That's our business. We need to make a series of phone calls. So for instance you can prove a certain ink and paper were. You couldn't tell if someone had just found old ink and paper okay. So throckmorton got copy of the Salamander Letter Church right. And he got the green light to investigate it with. William Flynn who was an Arizona Document? Examiner Throckmorton was Mormon. So he picked he picked Flynn because he was a code Catholic. Who doesn't even go to church going to learn marketing surrogates to donate documents and the bomb parts could be easily bought it. Radio Shack. They so then. They connected an alias that market written on an envelope at his house to a radio shack receipt with bomb parts. Same name not looking great. The police also found a section of galvanized pipe in the trunk of Mark's Car. Much like the ones used the pipe. Okeydokey Martin inflator found. A chemical is used to artificially age the documents and they discover mark was a master forger and therefore had a motive for murder marks forgeries quickly unraveled old bibles nineteenth century contracts books of Mormon Mormon letters him books blessings immigrant guides Veggie Ross letter assigned photo of Al Capone. The anti transcript of Justice Mother Winter Lettuce Yoga Freeman over six hundred documents. An autograph from Al. Did it and say this is a real either on your head now. Pulau damning and millions of dollars before sh in turns out mark had spent years covering for each forgery. Humane way could best okay. So when examining Martin harrises running on the salamander letter they compared it to other Martin Harris documents. They didn't know was that those other Harris documents were given to the church by mark years before groundwork foundation investing so he lifted and setting up for years. It's the best is shared. They were authenticating forgeries by comparing him to mark's Portuguese that finally k now detectives believe Mark Murder Christianson for pushing him to fix his collapsing money. Scheme Kathy sheets was killed as as a diversion. Marquis charged with two counts murder and twenty-eight council fraud and was looking at the death penalty the state offered him a plea deal but his father disagreed. Believing blood. Atonement seven. Raised Your Dad. When you were child get killed. He'll go to hell. That's he said this quote of Satan Goal. Got A hold of YOU SIGN. And you've committed these acts you should confess and ask for the firing squad so you can be with us in the next. Life Dad. I don't really believe in it. Any you have gathered. Think about it. This is why I get all the shit. You're not there. That's the that's the others a little too much of me. I could shut up. Okay thank you fucking boy supposed to care enough to not shut up. This is when you find some place in your jail cell. Jesus no Mar Hammett Hail Mary. So I knew I was real salamander. Second says a little far fetched. If you ask me. I never thought I never thought I was a little dog. I told you guys did Jay Renee J seven mark pleaded guilty to counts of second degree murder. One kind of theft by deception and one count fraud. He received four concurrent five years to life sentences. It's not terrible it isn't. It's life the Mormon Church was very quiet. Sure they were. We don't like to talk about that. Sound pick personally paid back. The one hundred eighty five thousand dollar loan and the Church ex. Communicated Mark Hoffman on. What grounds the fucking awesome mark quote? I won't go so far as to say I wanted to change history. Let me take that back. Maybe I did anyway. I believe that the documents I created could have been a part of Mormon history. Okay Mark. Oh okay it's not so much what is genuine. And what isn't it's what people believe is genuine. Santon forever to me is unimportant if Joseph Smith had that vision or not as long as people believe the important thing is that people believe it cable. Good last session. It's funny not funny but it's a little ironic that he's now ending in the jail cell. Joseph Smith thank you January. The Board of pardons met to determine the length of his sentence. He said to be saying. But quote in ornately self-centered and possibly narcissistic possibly. We're not sure we wanted to get some evidence about Kathy sheets. Murder Mark said quote as strange as it sounds. It was almost a game told the board in closing my client would like to say it was like a game to fun and really great. I figured it was a fifty percent chance that it would go off and fifty percent chance. That wouldn't at the time I made the bomb. My thoughts were that it didn't matter if it was missing sheets a child the dog whatever. Good keep talking for sure keep talking. You're not helping going Louis. Ck yourself keep just keep talking talking completed up keep going. Don't Stop Mark. It's getting better. Mark said the third bomb was meant for himself. But most people thought it was for Brent Ashworth and just accidentally exploded in transit. The board decided he was spent his life in prison. Two months later inmates said Mark was asking them to blow up members of the board. Oh my Lord releasing his dad in the next room Jesus. He denied it but the prison intercepted coded letters asked his wife and others still wasn't enough evidence to press charges. There's no way to determine. Exactly how many forgeries mark made at least eighty three signatures perfect including George Washington? John Adams John Quincy Adams Daniel Boone. John Brown Andrew Jackson Mark Twain. Or we'll write nathaniel. Hawthorne Right John Amazing so you guys gotTa try sincerely Orrville. GotTa go hand smarts. John Hancock Abraham Lincoln. Very Lincoln. I'M GONNA START. Wearing really big stupid head hurts in the next year marks left him for a few days later. He took a lethal amount of anti-depressants he was revived but not before lying on his arm unconscious for twelve straight hours as a result of the blockage to his circulation. The muscles in his arms are atrophied. The forum has withered almost to the bone. The find motor control that enabled him to create some of the most skilled leary. Forgeries world's ever seen has irrevocably ben damaged with the loss of his Armar. Coffin will never be able to forge again. Sorry sorry he I know that trying to make light of the arm for twelve hours at is GonNa Change. Sleep for me for a long time. I took bill so he was. He was out sleep on pretty out. There was a guy you know. I Guess Mega Mega DEF LEPPARD. Guy Did heroin. And he among number five and he fell asleep like this bent over and then he won't help us paralyze. I don't WanNa see me sleep at transit. I do not want to miss your on heroin or you know Shit. You know me many of those involved in the name. Mark Hoffman affair believe the reshaping of Mormon history was his real purpose. Consciously or not in Mark's house please evidence that he was forging the one hundred sixteen loss pages of the book of Martin. Oh my God he had in Colima Zouk hundred CEO by God they'd have been like Jesus Christ mark. What do you need the ocean? We will figure out a way to get into what greasy story normal. Well some people when they rebel against that religion really really go and some religions. I mean talk about faith Lord. Yeah Well Hud something Utah. Yeah well I hope whoever it was watching whenever they were rushing phone had fun. Yeah incorrigible stickered. Salomon White Cell made up salad and they were just like fucker. Sounds real full of Shit? You have to be like what is crazy crazy. Shit that people go. We got a line of a little bit with like say big. Yeah yeah it was a human? Yeah that's got to be true. Nobody can think that bullshit. Well Salt Lake City you guys so much bird.

Judy mark mark Church Joseph Smith Joseph Smith Mormon Church Joseph Smith Salt Lake City Utah Anthony Van Okay Mark Murder Christianson Mark Hoffman Marc Ashworth Nunez Gauchan Martin squarespace Margaret reporter Lucy Mack Smith Joseph Mark Physics Free Jesus
Episode 380: Mormonism Part III - The Level of Leakage

Last Podcast on the Left

2:01:25 hr | 2 years ago

Episode 380: Mormonism Part III - The Level of Leakage

"No place to escape to the loss from the left. That's one of the cannibalistic listen started all week. Long nine have marcus telling on me. I'm with my parents and they're like he can ever going to get out of the house. Recall regains gonna cancel you fly. I heard that you stay with us for an extra weekend exciting exciting. It's fun. It's like the children under the stairs but it's your parents and it's like what have i just set fire to the house in your sleep but have markets on the other end saying henry. Let's it's not get lost in the weeds but the hermetic magic round of mormonism and the ascent to coble and i'm like it's the funniest part hearted all right. You know you can hear people shut off the past like out loud. You can hear people throw their phones that caused the room right title bala stick nature mormonism spina spine of interested in the weather report that your parents gave you honestly honestly spaghetti maps sheet in the world and of course the people under the stairs children stairs. I already got something wrong all right. Everyone welcome to the last broadcast on the left. I am ben. I'm with marcus. I and we are lucky enough. He's fresh from florida. He looked so well rested and tant. He wasn't getting screamed at his parents for a week because he didn't wipe properly in the bathroom. We're with henry as well in studio in beautiful new york city now discovered but i don't even bring under with st mark's family. I washed my pre. Wash them in the sink you have to like i'm washing my new creek like i'm a true in. Did you just american but today i again. We're not going to get lost in cobalt. We're going to talk about this but the one thing that does get me. Mad is why do warm. It's just by being super uber. Nerds gifted their own planets. It's not fair well. My mother bought a star really did the laura kissel star. It's up there somewhere sin if you you know what to learn anything for boca hana's you can't own a star. I don't know where to walk a mile in somebody else's moccasins. I don't know my mom vote was fifty dollars god t- fought him for fifty dollars and it was outta frigging planetary and then they circle star and they said that's the laura star. It wasn't a scam anyway. That was the same christmas. I got a pet rock we are aren't you part three of mormonism so we last left joseph smith he just managed to publish the book of mormon using money guilted out of his follower martin harris because because martin's wife had either hid or destroyed the first draft of joseph's magnum opus lucy. I'm so glad you pick the need toilet paper from stuart until it's very stiff yellow. What would it is human. Guess guess martin o. Being so much rubble yeah man joseph smith will be pretty upset about that and with the publication of the book done under the supervision of a publisher named egbert grandin. Nope sounds like a man who has two legs but no needs. Won't you be careful when you are the godfather to egberts browse sir crowing slams against egg-shaped men and how important they are to this very vocal to third-country omelets for dinner again. Daddy you're the best after that. Joseph smith moved forward with his desire to set up an actual church. Despite the fact the reviews for the book of mormon were universally terrible. Really people hated it. It's not a good book a terrible book. Can you imagine if the bible liable was being written and john the baptist here my works and that everyone was like oh. I don't know like seriously do we really need to have critics for these books yeah of course because that's the thing that joseph smith released it as a book it was sold at book nado religious book well. That's the thing is that there was no mormonism win. It was released when the book of mormon was released. The church of jesus christ latter-day saints didn't exist. He did not have a church yet. It was just a book mobile is actually technically glee good besides being a rag it'd be used for tin to for the flame technically a beautiful collection of poetry and lessons. Yeah it was a book of mormon is is indecipherable. It's five hundred pages of gobbledygook and i don't need to learn the jesus's magical touch make you wait. Revelations is very fun that the bible is just a list of names. No that's just certain book on a lot. There were so laser the bible or some lazy writers. That's all i'm going to say and they just listed dame. We're getting a lot of biblical hot takes but the fact that the book of mormon was not a good book might be the reason why the church became came such a priority so you remember the original point of boca mormon was to just sell a book so joseph smith could support himself and his family through something besides farming coming which is a noble impulse admittedly but joseph might have realized that if the book wasn't going to sell on the merits of his abilities as a storyteller than he needed to bolster those stories with the strength of his own personality which would hopefully translate to patronage just see him looking in the mirror like rubbing rubbing my temple. I got out my fucking brand. I gotta figure on my brand right now on fox. Fuck fuck me. Fuck me. Sitting sitting here in everybody's book was supposed to be healed so joseph. Smith is the first influence so about two weeks after the book was published. Joseph smith proclaimed himself to be quote. I'll see ya a translator. A prophet an apostle of jesus christ. I an elder of the church the will of god and the father and the grace of your lord jesus christ. I'm all that sounds like charles manson on an acid trip but the thing about joseph smith was that while he did eventually become an authoritarian he was also always keenly aware pair of what both his followers and what the country was thinking so you wear as many call leaders are the mighty oak that breaks in the storm. Joseph smith was was as confucius says the read that bins in the wind. Can you see that properly marcus. Are we allowed to do that anymore. I can say it'd just be not like the oak that breaks in the storm. Be like the read that sways in the wind will it is interesting. You mentioned how joseph smith sort of understood understood the mood of the country and what people were thinking and that explains his racism. No it absolutely does and we're gonna game. He's just i am just a symptom symptom of the problem. Okay i am not the problem just a symptom of the problem. I'm a barometer societe but he understands it. That's my philosophy which is why i think that i could lead a benevolent nabala dictatorship of this country because i would be and i did this while i was courting natalie. I told her this. I told this to her several times. I said i would be the lord who listens were only saying that because you are currently playing sieve five if you are becoming a psychopath figure out how to measure happiness with your food out take you're going to get rebels <music> shown up in the north of us your arm to feed your people think gadhafi of sim five well. I mean the henry might be on to something here. Because joseph's joseph's willingness to bend is why joseph smith legacy is beautiful salt lake city while jonestown is an overgrown jungle run interesting but what josephus willingness to listen meant was that he was just as influenced by his followers as they were influenced by him and his teachings because you gotta remember joseph smith was twenty five years old when he founded the church jesus christ latter day. I'm just doing what y'all telling me to deliver you. Tell me to jump. I saved you telling me talking. Because joseph listened the birth of mormonism as we know it was messy bloody bloody and full of dissension in the ranks but a big part of mormonism rise was the fact that these people were yes anding each other into making joseph more more than a man but less than a god for example one of joseph's earliest followers was a man named newell night now newell night believe he was possessed by the devil or a lesser demon because it's kind of unclear exactly what lived inside of newell prophet profit joseph. I i have a problem. I've come to you. I do not know what is common thing inside of last night. I farted on a sandwich. They did it just to see how much fart on you got yourself. A shark demon talk about that but whatever was inside newell caused convulsions that no doctor could cure so newell turn to joseph smith who who wasn't even sure he knew how to perform an exorcism but when smith took the devil to task commanding the devil to release newell soul newell night said that he saw the devil leave his body and disappear. Oh red stimpy episode so we're stip- he loses his cutest thing i've ever seen sweetest episodes gold show but this is where you know oh aw god him so torn. I'm not praising joseph smith morrell r._h. But just this idea that a man can come and say i think i'm possessed by being and and you know your job is all eyes are on you right profit if anybody can get rid of a demon. It's you yeah so joseph. Smith just looks at him and he looks at his hands and he's just like new get and then it just so happens. He buys it enough that he stops convulsing mad. If it works it it works. I mean the power of the mind after that newell claim that is convulsions never bothered him again. The key is never bothered him problem but this incident incident is highly underrated for how much it affected joseph smith as a leader and as a man who believed he was an honest to god magician well. He has got the backup to who it. He knows he has the training from his parents. This this great all of this right hand. Path magic should has been around for a long time mixed with just the straight up folk magic that i've been reading more about has been a part of the american farming culture since the very beginning right since since we started farming in this country but many people have been using these little talismans and all this kinda shit so joseph smith at this point thinks like i'm the one yeah i mean before the exorcism joseph wasn't sure or he had what it took to be a religious leader because he knew that he just been making shit up. He knew the golden place didn't exist. He knew the seeing stones were just stones but although he was technically a blasphemer smith was certainly no atheist and in pulling off the excesses them joseph had done something beyond his. It's known abilities now. Joseph smith had performed what both he and his followers believed to be a bona fide miracle so he's buying his own message now uh-huh yeah oh yeah but he's into himself. He's well on his way to believe in his own bullshit. Okay we'll see it was interesting when his mom wrote about later on when she wrote her own biography and then explaining explaining the childhood of joseph smith as she was raising him. She said one thing is she. You very interesting one draft. She was like it's not like joseph was was constantly using her medics to access the faculty of brac the cut that sentence out right give a brac which is like like that's deep cuts superbeets right hand magic bullshit that she was just like oh so this is like a thing they kind of have talked about and and so eventually it is just that i never would have believed that we've been able to suck my own dick. One time i prayed as hard as i could satan and i had so much whiskey inside of me. Yeah i got got my nose almost to the tip synthetic citing. You got to know fuck yourself so it seems like joseph. Smith's mom would be a super cool chicken consumer yeah. She's just kinda hippie chick oh she'd be covered in gems and so on april sixth eighteen thirty the church of christ as they i called that was formerly established with only six members within a month that number had jumped to forty this shit that really like foot me as as we were going through this history mormonism caught on fast so super fast but most people in joseph smith's hometown were not buying it see these people knew exactly what joseph smith was because they'd all grown up with them and for the most part they'd put up with all the magical shit that joseph and his family got up to but but now joseph smith was taking advantage of people's deeply held beliefs he was a blasphemer and that the people couldn't abide but it was smart to attach it to jesus right because then he makes it so it's just a he's just a franchise. It's just a different franchise of christianity. It's repackaging the sensual pieces that that make any religion so then folks who were super. Christian could also just be like well. It's not that bad. Jesus is still involved yeah of course it and this is also something it's pretty common among leaders remember ocean rikio. A lot of their stuff was based on the foundation and that brought in all of the scifi nerds <hes> have a hook. Yeah colts have to have a hook like you have to add something new to the conversation right <hes> so a mob of about fifty people all surrounded joseph and his converts threatening the tar and feather until a constable appeared and arrested joseph for disorderly conduct. This is just the first mob we'll come for the mormons then i researched a little bit about tar and feathering and it's interesting because a lot of it's as bad as i thought thought it will sometimes it's the super hot tar if they really don't like you but sometimes it's pine tar that just can be like it's still hot but it's not scalding you hot embarrassing the worst thing they do. Is they ride you on rail yeah they take a fence post and they put up gooch and then you covered in feathers natarajan inobound you up and down this rail and they embarrass you super embarrassing you get you get covered in pine tar like your baseball bat. Shove stuff up inside. You're not good like in recent. Although this was the first time a mauve appeared ready to take joseph smith away and it was the first time that mormons were threatened with violence. It was by yeah no means the last not even close in the church was only a couple of months old wow but joseph skated on this one as he would many times afterwards but what this gave joseph smith was something that every good kotler needs an enemy an enemy loving honestly very good very good. The mormons were now persecuted and nothing bolsters faith like persecution about this first persecution joseph osa fro quote they spit upon me pointed their fingers at me saying prophecy prophecy today imitate those who crucified it's eight mankind not knowing what they did two months and he's already compared himself to jesus christ man. That's how you do john lennon but it's still like i'm not jesus bah. I'm jesus at jason. I'll give you that the person joseph smith was having the hardest time convincing when it came to the church was his own wife shit imagine going home to your wife and your like kinda like jesus and she's like what oh you mean like. Hey zeus guardmen but it's not because she didn't believe in joseph smith and the golden plates and all that chip because remember she helped him translate she was the the first one while joseph smith was just fine with taking money from parishioners because it kept him out of the fields. Emma had pride she she did not like taking charity from other people she believed that joseph smith should work for a living. He should work for his money. Well and i just want to thank everyone who's given to our patriots and the money is going to puffins who wendy and to georgia really spend the money and not kissel atlantic city in any way she she performed and it's not me buying various shoes or buying weird eights in the middle of the night. Hey at this very moment. Georgie is getting her anal glands s- closing so thank you i'm. I'm doing sports betting now. It took six weeks for joseph to convince his wife that joining the church was the the right thing to do and he finally accomplished it through what else but his natural talent improvisisation aka light you say lying the i say selling about getting them in the fold and having everybody see from your perspective. It's don't stand a way for me looking at let me stand beside me looking forward with me friend wife friends on us. That's very good. Joseph told his wife that god had struck him with a capital our relation. It's coming wait. Can you hit it. They sold god according to joseph had made emma smith a quote elect lady going on to say that her only purpose would be quote a comfort tom to my servant joseph smith junior thi- husband in the spirit of meekness in other words george shut your fucking mouth and do what you're told listen. This isn't like a special wife. You're a special way for you to do special thing unlike what be my wife wanted to do something like at a job or already doing a job being my wife. The ongoing took money making money here. Joseph smith added perhaps the most important tool in his entire cult halt leader skillset direct communication with god through revelation. Take a little bit of so sociopath the racism and that sexism and then you've got a perfect dish all of that gives you a direct channel did jesus. That's the recipe that's a recipe and the thing is about the revelation is that it was one sided so that way god's word was always final. Listen emma. It's gotta made you a special wife. It wasn't me you're going to argue with. Geo you know me river that. I love the way you arash special life special. Does your wife has a special type of quite. You made a noise there. That was annoys do can. Let's see let's see what a special life does what noise as a special life make uh joseph even got rid of his seeing stones and all of his magical accoutrements because he realized that mormonism will it'd be much more impressive simpler and infallible if it all came directly from him see pretty soon. Joseph was claiming that god had whisked golden thin plates back up to heaven every single one of them so joseph would never have to face another situation. I keep faced with lucy. Harasses clever trickery <music> a joseph. It's god here. We've got a big spaghetti thursday coming up. I got to get these plays back. Is that cool absolutely geo d the boss of me all right thank hugh cow but he must have felt almost a sadness. Though i feel like i do not you quit myself to this leader again but i remember when i joseph smith adjacent. Is that what you're saying but i remember when i got rid of my big hands or on my mr big the big hand for murder when i had to. I downsize my sketch comedy closet when i downsize it and i got it always props and support of me. 'cause you wanna believe you really enough just my words enough. Don't dress up like a big deal to put on a santa. Claus costume all covered in blood not only because we had big hand. It was all dependent on the big hands going to get a little bit of big hands just to go back to that moment. He was devon horse spots. You need help spanky spanky gigantic. Hey good memory. That's just the power of me boys. You need to be more supportive. Take me but then i've also but that's the things that i've been the memory of you with the big hands and the glasses hunched over in the movies when the nerd girl takes ponytail takes her she was always a hot chick cancer joseph smith because because he got rid of all of his accoutrements he became god's mouthpiece meaning that joseph would ask a question concerning whatever thorny matter was before him or the church and joseph would speak the answer with the voice of god and that's final voice of god unless of course joseph later decided that god wanted something different. Oh aw hey joseph. Should we get her two or three cheese pizzas for the meeting air. I'll let me ask god god. Aw what are you saying. Oh we need to get at least one hawaiian in that because that's god's saying joseph none of us like god set eating hawaiian tonight that ain't even up pizza throughout joseph's life and indeed up until this very mary day the concept of revelation was an is used to change the rules of mormonism on the fly again showing the willingness to bend to whatever whims kept mormons thriving and at that time alive again a similarity scientology is about the keyword. We're gonna hit this again. Dan is alive is this. They want this shit to live forever. This key that joseph smith understood that he wanted this go forever where l. r. h. Then used scientology moved towards a business end which you're gonna see a little bit more with joseph smith later on down the line with right now. He's starting to understand we. We just need to have a little bit of wiggle room in order for this great experiment to continue interesting so a lot of people believe in living constitution for example and that is why the constitution the tuition has been so flexible which also makes mormonism again the most american of all religions right but the other thing about the mormon staying alive. I mean that very literally because sometimes the mormons did have to change rules to prevent from being killed by mark all right. We'll stop walking backwards on wednesday so we understand but right into the children we we'll stop walking backwards on wednesday so after emma agreed to convert and ben to joseph's will the couple moved to new york to live in the home of peter whitmer who'd been one of the eight witnesses to the golden plates before god took them back to heaven yeah paid you remember you saw the plates right. Tell emma you saw them. We're we're lawsuit. Lozada paper us all the plates yeah. You didn't feel so bad for 'em in this situation. It's gotta gotta suck authoritarian husband but to have a husband that thinks he's god. That's a colossal pain in the ass. You're gonna feel a lot worse for him before the sole things over but she's he's a special wife from new york. Joseph truly began laying the foundations first church within five months. He had a revelation that god wanted the mormons to build the city of zion on the borders of the layman nights aka the native american tribes oh interesting stain and so he sent oliver cowdery who had just returned from a sales trip out east where he'd sold fuck all copies of the book mormon to go proselytize of the native americans who the book and promised would eventually turn white if only they believed hard and i also i'm getting some. I'm getting into revelation here. Got also wants us to build a think of the keystone pipeline directly through native land. I don't know it's just so funny that it always seems to be through native land. This guys listen listen. If you guys cover yourself just enough oil and we wipe it off you can also be white and it wasn't just oliver. Cowdery three who is given the ability to speak in joseph's stead joseph ordained every male follower with titles like postle elder and deacon and gave the missions to spread the word of mormonism to all people and this is a practice that of course we all know today as i'm willing to bet damn near everyone listening has scene pairs of mormon missionaries button up shirts and black ties walking around their neighborhood at one point or another although they no longer tell people that the color of their skin can change through belief. It'd be kind of fun of they said if you believe in god you turn purple be like i believe i believe a belief <hes> grimace and my grandma again and again to give you a scope of how successful mormonism ended up being there currently sixty five thousand missionaries in damn near every corner of the globe spreading the word of joseph smith just tight boys just full innocence in new york city they were taught spanish for some reason speak spanish and then this fairly young girls women almost nee women may women out there teaching and lessons all alone in the middle of nafta. He will never seen female missionaries. I would assume that they do not have female. Okay aries then one of those women noonan nunan documentaries. I was watching that's called porno but the reason why the mormons promised white skin was because there was an actual scientific thicke belief at the time that this was possible because lighter skin natives supposedly took european customs more readily than their darker skinned brethren. I think that's probably a really complicated. Nape problematic statement yes yes and it's dumb is an anecdotal as that is. Is this belief in so called science is what actually attracted a fair amount of intelligent for the time people to the mormon faith which again this is extremely similar to scientology <hes> because you had a little bit of the pseudoscience little bit and then people believe the intellectuals start jumping in the pseudo intellectuals. The people who believe they're intellectuals brigham young was one of these guys all the people who went to yale who currently don't have jobs or the other half of people went to yale it just right every single tv sitcom in los angeles for the person who just wrote an entire eight thousand pages in the new york times about the t._v. Show friends oh using pseudoscience. Mormonism was able to bring in dozens then hundreds then thousands of people who are just smart enough to understand scientific theory but not so smart that they couldn't see through the bullshit so while the first missionaries were out west a man named parley pratt who was mitt romney's he's great great grandfather came upon a town in ohio named kirtland which was home to a pastor with a sizable following named sydney ridden. Now sydney was a big believer. In the gathering of israel meaning the chosen people would soon come together and anticipation of the final days a lot of evangelicals believe russia now and that also meant sydney was into millennialism which was the belief that jesus was due back on our soon to roll for the millennium of peace ben. I'm sure you're extremely familiar with this. I thought millennialism was living in your parents basement because you're too lazy to draw them along. I go there. I do <hes> ah but isn't millennialism. Isn't it also kind of what gives the concept of what we've always talked about in in colts which you have to put an end you have to put a a a thing in the future that we're working towards which the goal posts that can be moved <hes> part of the genius of joseph smith which will get into in just a second flaw formula. It's twenty nine thousand nine. Everybody needs a great pair of wireless ear buds. You've got to have it all right. 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Policy genius the easy way to compare and in by life insurance so when parley pratt showed up at sydney's church saying that the city of zion was going to be american law law what that's so crazy and the chosen people were the native americans and then a man from new york had received these revelations straight from guy. I heard all this shit. He was ecstatic. Yeah here's your sign so oh. After fasting and praying for three days said he quote unquote saw an angel and took it as a sign that this joseph smith fellow was on something wow wow and within three weeks all of sydney's parishioners were believers in the book of mormon without joseph even fucking showing up bam. It's about finding align yourself a loyal. I mean honestly like we have an audience now and so companies are like oh we would like to get a part of that audience and all he did was take his audience against joseph smooths like i'm a little bit of that audience and flip him. That's a brilliant move up you like if we get another podcast start flipping their fans towards awards awards us and we get them to start there. Your whole show is just praising us right the eliminate their show they just talk about how great we are and they make everybody that subscribes to them. I'm also subscribed to us. This is a great move. You're making money on top of making money and top among big money moves but it's weird how it's also about like kind of poke re bluffs where if somebody has enough inertia like he showed up. Joseph smith showed up with enough fire and he was the right look had the right cut shirt he was in there. He had the right words and everybody's just like okay. You want to be in charge okay. We'll flip. You noticed this all happened before. Joseph smith even showed up in kirtland. This was just all of this. This was just oliver cowdery taking joseph smith's energy and delivering it. Wow showed like he's like. Do you want to do something credible and it was just the box and he opened up the top. It just was the tip of the penis hanging the very top box. This is joseph. Smith's peanuts and it's coming all the way from albany. Look like dan ackroyd knows nothing but trouble. Meanwhile joseph smith was busy writing a bit of a sequel after completely throwing away the concepts of seeing stones and golden plates. Joseph claim that the book of e knock the sequel to the book of mormon have been zap straight into his brain by god this book he claimed which supposedly a conversation between god and moses have been omitted from the old testament because the hebrews had been wicked which deathly took the title of god's chosen away from the jews liu so god was also playing like role of copy editor learned non sorry. We're gonna have to take that out. <hes> yeah without a doubt yeah this. This is what it was. It was all addendums and edits yeah so the story went. I've been an ancient city named zeon have been taken up into the heavens whole because it's people have been so terribly righteous and god was ready for zion to come back to earth joseph just had to build it first and once he did they could kickoff jesus is millennium. I think i think that's what the story is. It sorta that but but it is it is that sort up on stage and i thought they took the city as a whole. Why don't they just download the city then bring it back. You would think that would be the case yeah yeah but that's the thing is i think they just took the souls of the whole city. Yeah i think i think he meant. They took the people of the city all the people of the city up into heaven. Why didn't you say that. I'm pretty sure i'm pretty sure this is just the plot of space jam. I think they yeah. I mean that's what when they when they is apt. Patrick ewing's energy which happened in real life during the ninety s when they were in the playoffs but they do that quite a bit in mormonism. There's a lot of this idea of believe so hard hard you just pop into heaven like this idea and then all of a sudden you're in heaven coble yeah okay but whatever whatever the book v knock said sydney regna and said i love it. I love it. Wait a second wait to see one more time book of enough i love this is the worst hollywood pitch meeting within two weeks. Joseph had another revelation that the mormons quote should a symbol together in ohio. Take a brand new steamship all the way to cleveland. I call it the cleveland steam and that would give the mormons mormons their first official home because joseph had to get the fuck away from new york and everybody who knew who he used to be <hes> that's kind of the opposite opposite attract. Normally people leave from ohio to new york who they used to be but this is up state new york like nobody goes to fuck in buffalo to building new. They used to be you yeah. Yeah that's true but a lot of followers weren't too keen on leaving so after weeks of arguing joseph had another revelation commanding his people to go which really isn't all that different from jim jones moving people from indianapolis to california by telling them that a nuclear holocaust was coming god. There's a lot of people saying they wanna leave more handing. They want to do an afternoon trip. No we got. We got to go right now. It's kind of command but kirtland was not a purely mormon settlement. Although there were already about a hundred and fifty mormons upon joseph arrival borrower even fucking got nice the mormons biggest rival in the spiritual arena where the kimberlites who the polar opposites of the mormons really bushes burst of chicken noodle soup. I mean hell at least it gives you sustenance real thing well. The camel lights were new testament estimate literalist who believed that the word of god i e the over translated king james bible which is far from the original word was to be taken exactly fleet as it was written which naturally caused friction with joseph style because i'm hip hop pastor lay down licks. Everybody just wants the brain ticks. That's how it is the the app was he nice. Jesus was the original hippie now. You're just reminded me of when mitt romney sang who let the dogs out yeah. That's a fun little video. If you get a chance to youtube it. It's a serious question. I'm asking dogs everywhere who who <music> what was more the mormons that joseph found in kirtland ohio were stuck in revivalist mode meaning. They were just they were still speaking in tongues flopping around on on the fucking floor in joseph news and in religion the candle that burns the brightest also burns out the fastest. If it's yellow you gotta let what do you understood that these that type of passion is not how we're going to build our city now. We're not going to build our city. That's gonna last forever. Everybody's acting super kannst against and right fucking speaking directly to god and they're flopping around but i it is interesting because you know that they're showing look joseph talk and writer. Who am i gonna. We're gonna stop shop. This isn't a crash test dummies music video stop that already in the candidates were taken full advantage of this a campbell ambler newspaper editor wrote that during worship the mormons crept on the hands and feet and acted out quote all the indian modes of warfare such a scalping and a tearing tearing out of love to watch these crackers. That'd be fun and to see them. It just sounds like murder fist rehearsal. Yeah that does sound like fun. It does sound like fun to watch that and held to participate to pretend tear out your neighbor guts and they were doing all this sober. Yeah okay well. There's a lot of people who believe that. Joseph smith was feeding everybody. A steady stream of various hallucinogens loosened aginst banal seems like that would be very difficult to do on on massey okay but that's a theory. It's a theory that i do not subscribe to and the but joe smith knew that the mormons couldn't be seen as full crazy but he also didn't completely ban all all of this spiritual hullabaloo hullabaloo because he knew but discouraging faith was a bad idea well. It's weird because he's literally just like luxury like your phantom your of your energy love it love it just tone it down. Just a bit commercial edition received love your approach lover. Are you doing if you could just like not do any that. That'd be great when we asked for people to apply for a job here and they send a resume that says hey you fucking dick ads. I want to talk and we are actually a business l. larry. He's a very good employee and i like it very much. I loved it. He's the human toilet. I really wish we didn't do this. Whole if it's yellow let it melting because i am full of year old that cut between your knees knees your job. I would love to flush it so dukes of smith had a revelation in which god said that joseph smith had to give personal permission to converts before they could speak in tongues and all that shit making sure to keep the crazy ones from showing their ask too much in public so did the same thing with his wife. He's just like what if everyone just shot what's up. This is how we did it. Yes he's smart. She didn't like my father on vacation to smith. It's you know every once in and while because he was like all right stop it stop on the bus. Stop the flimflam stopping every once in a while. They're just hanging out and they're like george. Do some tongues please go mckay mckay chart. You could crack me up this also did though was put joseph ziff into a firmly authoritarian position this will put joseph and later the church on the road to controlling every aspect of worship and eventually most aspects suspects of people's personalized as well in the way joseph set up the hierarchy was essentially appear mid scheme since every man was ordained in the church in some way or another they formed the base but there were a lot of levels above them and the best way to move up to the next level was to bring more people into into the church because you're gonna see a pattern here because you're bringing people into the flock but everybody was a priest. That's going to become more formal as things go but it's interesting to see how people behave when you say like you're not intern malcolm. You're admiral malcolm like when you give somebody a big title while the act like it's more like they have gravity yeah. It's like m._l._m. Now where they tell people like you own your own business yeah but you're also selling selling herbalife. Joseph was also keenly aware of the mood of religious minded folk at the time looking at how sydney rigged in and his faulk had taken to millennialism lineal azam. Joseph started making that a central tenet of his sermons and once he incorporated millennialism people started flocking by the hundreds to see joseph speak and a lot of these people stayed because they saw josephus rise as evidence that christ was indeed coming the prophets were starting into appear but what made joseph so smart was that unlike a lot of other mellon heiress and cult leaders throughout history. Joseph never set a date date for when jesus might come back although he did want say that jesus might come back in fifty six years gray long after after joseph was dead. I'm just gonna put on my truth hat. I just want to get this sentence out there because i hate jesus is never coming back because jesus was never here. He's a made up character. Kissel really means a lot. I'm glad that you did it. Not me. Thank you please. My mother used to allow me to stay home from school which was a nice reason because she said you don't have to go go to school because you never know when jesus coming back so we gotta piggly-wiggly yeah that was nice yet but that also introduced a lot of really bad habits that you're still trying to deal with <hes> no i don't. I just surround myself with smart mark friends. It's not a you lean people's work. It's me surrounding myself. Smart people should heard me explaining to my niece. My niece was literally being. I don't understand group projects at school. There's always one kid who doesn't do anything but he'd get the same. Great is us and i'm like that's the smartest kid in the group. That's the kid who understands understands. You just have to go. Listen bella love which doing love your energy again. Keep going. I'm here to just dotting the is. I'm crossing the ts. I'm here to support you. Honestly your father's routine of just when he was asked to do something he did it wrong and then your mother never asked to do something again. Just get the question wrong when they were in the group work and then. I guess you'd better do it but in the mormon world jesus had already come back. Oh my god. I just realized something in about myself in group projects. I used to just do all the work because nobody else would do it. As good as i could do to stop it they don't ever. Don't let him know that he's remotely figuring out okay. Same dynamics are in play and that the lowest jokers who don't do anything always flow casualty to the top man. I wish i could do less work on mormonism world. Jesus already came back. Oh already do that time. When he reappeared north america he kind of had a little bit of being like well bad return kind of already a happened so we don't really have another one of those in in cham yeah for a little bit okay so they already do have the i guess the ascension of jesus jesus has already happened. It's not the full descent a full backup with the army and the end of the time all the trumpets and and the revelations revelations nations have already forgotten. There was a chicken place that opened up and jesus really wanted to try it. Why did they come back <laughter>. He came back to talk to the layman nights and the second chicken wars. The six feel popeye's chick-fil-a christians christian. We'll millennialism was where the mormons actually got the name that they use for themselves because even today the word mormon when it comes to referring these people apple is considered of the devil. It's still considered an insult. They do not refer to themselves as mormons in fact. It's a great sin to refer to yourself as a mormon. I'm not i'm mormon. I'm a more man very good see since these people believed that they lived in the end times they began to refer to themselves as has latter day saints and the church of christ eventually became the church of jesus christ of latter day saints or more commonly the l._d._s. interest in a daring his sermons joseph made sure to maintain easygoing folksy appeal but he knew when to hit him with something hard and it was said the joseph was able to take a crowd crowd from laughter to tears in split-second which again is extremely common in colleagues like our live show but jim jones was very similar. Yeah jim jones. Jones had a flair for lacing n._b._n. Like now. I'm just a man like you. I'm just like you put my bra on one strap at a time you it. Is that stuff that allows you to key into people. Joseph smith had his special. He's truly special gifts. Interesting and joseph was also extremely personable. I mean he was a great politician. They said he was super funny. He was always joking ingesting and he would kind of been the rules. I just a little bit when it was funny. How and now i'm thinking about again when mitt romney's who let the dogs out so personal. I saw a datsun in the living room i aw rottweiler i. I am concerned. At the level of leakage. These dogs are receiving and what's joseph proved that he could move people at least emotionally and spiritually he took it to the next step and started asking for land and money it for sydney riggins followers. This wasn't a big deal because they were already living communistic with was much more common at the time than you might think. There's a lot of communistic roots in america especially in small farming communities because they understood that it's not about the ideological end of socialism. It's about just taking care of people so they live communally. It was more like communalism. Yeah we're and you see that's the thing is that it's just one calm when it's just one community joseph smith just kind kind of stepped like okay. You're all just one group right so i'm kind of in charge quotation marks of this entire community brighton brighton but for the others who weren't so sold on the communistic ideals joseph needed a revelation which said quote behold tech the law now held concentrate all the properties which that which thou passed onto me with the covenant and indeed which cannot be broken and nations be laid before the bishop of my church. It's the church was that any good lord in this demand for more money continues is to this day. If you really want to have fun youtube like kenneth copeland for example <hes> he's a multi multi multimillionaire fake pastor and when they confronted be like why do you have a private jet. Just go down that youtube whole of people confronting these super wealthy people and it's really fun to see them. Try to explain away the fact that they are obviously lying and taking advantage if you look right here in the book of corinthians and said the most important and luxurious no supple leather is the carinthian leather i have spent twenty five thousand of your most gracious in covering the entire interior of my personal jet plane with carinthian. It is literally exactly that response. I think one of them actually said that. Demons live on passenger jets do they do. They technically do a flight attendant told us the that is true yeah well. She said reptilians mormons are required today to tithe tin percent of their annual salary to the church and if they don't they aren't allowed to worship in a mormon temple or even enter a mormon temple for any any reason other than to pay ties next week we'll get into all of the weird shit that you have to do to try to enter into a mormon temple and we literally had to sell our house growing growing up and move into a duplex and my and my dad made seventy five k. a year they gave so much money to this good news fellowship church <hes> we literally built our pastors stirs house and he he mansion and it was just infuriated me at a very very young age and it's like daddy. Daddy batman has some really cool new action figures out right now. I would really like to get those but of course we have to give to the church. I know that they must have given a lot to the tithing. I'd also like to get a look at some of the food bills. You and your brother tracked crushed it man. I could order so much pizza but along with monetary roles. Joseph was also forming the official official hierarchy of the church. He had a revelation that the ancient mel kiss a deck priesthood mentioned in the old testament was to be restored immediately lee and bestowed among the common man now this is you're gonna be mad at us theologist listening to this podcast and if you're theologist listening to this podcast kube rapson sir where it's a bit complicated but i think joseph smith used that to his advantage yeah now the mel kizza deck priesthood ed is one of the most important organizations mormonism but is also highly complicated and we just don't have the time nor honestly the attention span to dive live too terribly deep honestly good because i'm already getting pissed. The long and short of it seems to be that mcisaac was a famous spur. He was a priest. Essentially it was a this is a priest class. Yeah kind of like for the dandy people out there. It's like the difference between being a paladin and a a cleric. Yes you make this more confusing this out. Is i get f- he's making it less confusing for me. Day are like it's. It's like an upper class. It's it's bullshit to say now. My priests all y'all that. I'm going to give you this. The specific priesthood are now more powerful fold than the regular priests. Okay like a paladin is a warrior priest wherein a cleric is more of a healer. You've got to be one of those people. It's like you got to do. You're on the sides and you're kind of medic. You don't do a lot you do. Some white magic's not alert and a long time. We've got a nerd. They literally anything's better than it was like. Jesus was in the mel kizza dhec mel l. kind of detrimental quotas. We believe we explode like the movie. Scanners were yes. Jesus jesus is class yeah yeah now. All you really need to know is that it has five levels from elder to apostle and four quorums from the elders quorum at the bottom to the quorum of twelve at the top which eventually made its way and lower of battle star galactica. Why why does religion why what is people. Why are they onto higher. Keys are important you got to you got to go towards the nerds. If you want your coal to survive you've got to shoot towards the nerds because nerds. We'd love game nights yet which is basically just hanging out. We like feeling like you're not you. Don't have asthma like you're not getting gene rob bob right and when you're what kind of negates the foiling of gene rub what is gene rub hired on buddy no no he's. That's his version of naughty auty gene rob. I'm talking about base gene rub which is like. I don't know if you've ever fully your jeans. I'm like when i was really really big and then you get like a rash underneath your belly from the material of the inside of your been real fat kinda fat and currently sort of fat. I never had any kind of up of the i thought. Would you said gene rub. I thought you meant like when you get hard when you're wearing your jeans and then that rubs known about it. What makes you like horny. Back in the day was my penis. Just kind of stick into the bottom of my belly must have gotten those fancy jeans that had zipper in the form of a vagina thing was although kirtland was a nice but you just have to give people steps to go right right people like numbers. It's like us with the sky miles which i obsessively check so we the with the thing was although kirtland was a nice base for the mormons they needed a place a little more malleable and closer the frontier for their very own zion and parley pratt thought he'd founded in jackson county missouri. Remember this is mitt. Romney's great-great-grandfather jackson county was home to independence which bans of our donor party series will remember eventually came to be a jumping off appoint for settlers heading out west about fifteen years after the founding of mormonism. Don't go but back then in eighteen thirty independence had no bank note no printing press and most importantly no church so of course the mormons. This place is just not exciting enough for us to live. They can't be be excited because if not they can't go to cobol all independence had was one shopkeeper who was making a killing all witch which made independence a seemingly smart place to settle keep the mormons got a foothold in independence than eventually they would control the gateway to the west giving them money and more importantly power but it wasn't time to move just yet such smart move such smart moves because he understood a clean slates great for them because that's what he needs. He needs a pre-built city. He needs a thing that he can go and just occupy brings by bring bodies and he can bring all the people to do all the little jobs jobs he can slowly but surely build all the things and honestly then emma will be happy because now emma will actually be the special wife. Who's in charge of this entire town. See the about the white. Can i get it. Can i talk to they bit okay but like most call leaders. Joseph smith knew he needed to save his big big moves for when he needed them the most and that moment came after the disastrous first assembly of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints now. We're all started off as a total success started at high point. It was during this assembly that joseph established the priesthood melk highs adak and during the ordaining ceremony a fanatic named lyman right jumped on a bench acted as if it's whole system was under attack and screamed. If you want to see your side look at me the here's your sign ingle of mormonism. I was my father used to go to don rickles and his favorite thing to do is that he'd make my mom's sitting in the front row in the middle all of this set that my dad would stand up and go hey don. I'm polish father. It's just the worst audience memorable ripple upon lion's request to look at me. Another man was struck deafen dome which the congregation saw as an act of the devil literally ran over commanded that the devil be removed and and the man regained his senses and everyone is just the room is electrified joe. John and joseph could have just taken the w and moved on but but he decided to press his lung howie mandel he moved onto another convert whose hands were crippled and curled and he commended marach. Come in you in the name of jesus christ to straighten your hand but it seems like human biology was just a a little more stubborn than the devil grabbing. Come on come on you. Bitch get trying to straighten the fingers and every time you straighten them out just curl back because he has a medical condition after that didn't work does like fucking and then he moved on to the next old. Well you know what you gotta do is okay now. Curl your hands did it in this next old man was lame in one leg and joseph commanded a stand up and walk took. We're doing this has working through me. Can you feel can you stand up and then he just you just immediately falls on the ground it again you just flip it fall down now. He's falling down. You know why he fell down because he's gay now that shit was completely and totally out out of control over what god a couple brought their dead child to the church. They brought a corpse into because this child had died after joseph had encouraged prayer in faith instead of actual. We'll medical go to the doctor. You know that joseph smith. I'm going to say a little bit. Let's have a little bit of compassion for joseph smith okay. He is trying trying to make this work. He is trying to make a career. Give it yeah how hard it is to be. An independent artists out there are he's. He's going for the w and he's so disappointed appointed himself because it's worked a couple of times and he'd bring this corpse in there and you know he just goes y'all. Y'all we all at all at this is a lot so the couple laid the dead child joseph's feet and said if you're so god aww damn powerful bring our son back to life because it's your fault he's dead now. We don't know if joseph actually believed that he could bring the kid back to life or not but he still gave it a shot and after several uncomfortable audible minutes of joseph just yelling core parents disappointed me indiscipline god no oh my god. The parents finally just told them to stop. They said stop it. The stun your bullshit. You're you're stupid. We're out of here. We're taking our dead child with us. Please have the conversation about how you guys went and dug up. You're dead son and brought it here. Mm-hmm with air just left the room and everyone just shuffled out. I was doing a little bit of research about how jesus christ the actual actual magician side of jesus christ healed people right and they said according to actual the original writings and the original belief systems of jesus christ is that he you would take the blind and he'd spit in their eyes and he'd missed the spit up in there is to make them not to make him be able to see to heal the death he'd spent his hands hands and give them what really works every time and all that should the avenue with joseph smith with the fingers and the middleman fallen down and the exercises among the a dead child. That was the first day the second day. He's like what if i try stink palmer is this fire fest but for for religion is definitely a flop and on the second day more bad news came to people who have bestowed land upon the mormons in ohio were taking the land and back and were demanding that the mormon trespassers returned to new york but this seems to have sparked an idea in joseph smith see at this point joseph was was teetering on the edge of losing everything and what else works better for a cult leader when people are losing faith than a change in location but joseph smith breath was also smart enough to know that he didn't have the spiritual currency to move everyone so joseph announced that god had commanded that he and thirty the of his closest followers should immediately leave for missouri to scout for the city of zion and he got the fuck out of kirtland before things could get any worse. He literally just hopped on his horse and win because he was like up. There's gotta revelation thirty. My closest boys and i gotta go. We gotta scott. We're on a scouting mission. We gotta do location not so we're going right now and just hopped in a horse eight three yeah and just left he left and then other guys were like so a we- part the thirty that's got up or we're going to and they loaded the horses and basically had to go find joseph and they fucking high tailed at other data and joseph. I had reasoning behind this. He said that he couldn't perform miracles in ohio because ohio was not consecrated ground but in missouri and missouri mary the blind would see the name would walk in the moment would be free to build zay on the back of an already thriving settlement. Wow of course surrey. I mean i think that's all i think that entire sentence is on their license plate. Nothing better than estate with the word sour love it not only would they arrived to find a bustling community but joseph was sure that oliver cowdery his first missionary had already converted hundreds of these good kind folk walk into latter day saints but when joseph and the others arrived at independence they found nothing more than a backwater frontier town filled with hard bitten highly paranoid frontier men in other words the absolute dregs of american society that sounds fun to hang out in oh it does but not if if you're starting to religion nah joseph are listen all of revelations again no arguing with god i mean this is totally dope. I'm glad we left in the middle of the night. I love hanging out would you and our boys and these horses here hanging out but <hes> this place sucks dick. What is it that fascinates needs you about. True crime is sexy podcast boys for me. It's the psychology of a killer while other people just loved the thrill trying to solve solve the whodunit. 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It was not the hundreds that joseph smith had predicted but rather four oh for a quarter so joseph pretty much said fuck this and let a contingent of room and left a contingent mormons and missouri and went back to ohio eight hundred miles away. You know what i didn't listen to it. I i spoke with god and this place does in fact suck dick <music>. Once joseph got back. He began the most revelation filled period in mormon history in eighteen thirty. Four joseph had three times as many revelations as he had in the last ten years of his life. You know it's like bobby baena nine hundred ninety six with the mets. Was it like that. Actually i would like to hear this. Why is peak doc. I guess i remember seeing it. See by studying the bible joseph was able to extrapolate on versus out of. I'm an obscure passage in corinthians. Joseph deduced that there were three kingdoms to which men would be assigned on judgment day the celestial kingdom would be were members of the true church would go hi either latter-day saints look the celestial kingdom was on the sun or at least it was a place that had the glory of the sun. Do see it as the sun. You know that would be real uncomfortable. They'll be very accountable. Son is extremely hot are you. Are you arguing with g. O. d. out there it. It just seems like ten. I'm i'm german american you do. I tand very much what you do. You stay quiet shut up. That's what you do and you know what i do. I talked to god he tells me what's going on. You know what he's telling me. You're going to get those who had never known the gospel. They'd be sent to the moon. <music> joseph called the terrestrial kingdom and we'd find out later on that that was actually completely true brigham young would clarify that the people of earth would live on the moon the people that were ignorant of the message would live on the moon and actually they're taller there and they dressed as quakers and sometimes grew big giant leathery bat wings and it's completely the real starting to brigham young founder of a university okay but for those of us who have heard the word and rejected it we would stay on earth the less lest your kingdom. I am such a fan of stain on a planet. That has a thing called oxygen because i found that humans need that yeah. You don't understand it you. I really don't understand the power of the would be like to be on colville and to get your own planet because this is where this is going to expand from here but even though joseph was was popping off some of his greatest hits people were starting to fall away a man named as rebirth who'd gone down missouri with joseph rightly figured out the joseph's revelations relations were born of crisis plus. He didn't vibe with joseph's constant. Gestion and joking didn't like it. He's like he thought that the prop op it should be a serious man can joseph was constantly roasted. People joseph smith was too funny. He's a funny guy and he's sitting there quoting anchorman and and after a while it gets to be the same always sunny quotes doing it again he's like do you remember when danny de vito was naked in the couch and you're like yeah joe just on instagram. I did just watch the you. Gotta pay the poach. Gotta be the trope. Got pay the troll to hold that post boys. All you're saying boys whole not sole way. That's funny then you could start a religion religion. I remember remember that way. I remember that i remember that episode very for music soul four joseph miss smith. Please leave me alone. Well another guy named simmons. Brighter left the church because his name name had been misspelled in special revelation that was meant specifically for him and simmons reason that out of anything god should at least be able misspelled. It's incredibly difficult name to spell. It's simon's spelled s. y. M. o. n. d. s. so that's hard and rider with the wi- and as we learned with the manson family god did not tell them how to spell helter either so maybe god is just a bad speller. It's possible possible title and these disaffected former congregants were enormously angry for being fooled and since nobody really liked the mormons anyway it wasn't hard to whip up a mob so on the night of march twenty fourth eighteen thirty two a mob took joseph from his bed and tarred and feathered him with his <music> own pillow. Stop writing me on this because all the dirty poking. That's a hell of a commercial for my pillow. This is bob number two yeah okay so they actually got him this time they dealt with any true tar and feathering because my understanding is it's when you try to remove move the tar and your skin goes with yup and just the tar and feather and that was the least of it before the tar even went on they stripped joseph naked and covered him in tiny any little scratches to make sure that it hurt extra than they beat him senseless and crushed a glass bottle in his mouth. Who is this weird sort sort of like dream violence. You know what i mean. How we can't really like some money and you kind of weird thing. You're forcing a violin. It's mouth and you kind of haphazardly like close close it and just thinking about that is nasty yeah but this supposed show of strength backfired completely all the men who participated in the tarring and feathering were there and the pews of joseph's church the next day to see joseph's reaction the same everybody's on twitter and they they wanna see how mad you get mad. They're getting on twitter. <hes> so what the hell did they say like a joseph sorry about that. What do you say louis as they're sitting there. They've got their arms this crossed. They're making jokes to each other their ribbon each other's saying like yeah. Let's see what this fucker does now but he won't does now he walks in like chicken lady the kids in the hall screaming <unk> spitting feathers he'd cleaned off all the tar the night before but he looked like shit he looked like he just been tarred and feathered and had the shit beaten out of him and and he just went up gave the sermon he'd already planned to give with quiet dignity acting almost christ like which made the mormons only love him that much more who speaks lumet not giving any sort of satisfaction night dick and teach going on now. We'll talk about again. Why i milk should be illegal. Actually i mean i know he's a total flimflam. This kind of bad ass yeah so soon after to that joseph went back to missouri to smooth things over a bit because the missouri mormons were understandably none too happy about being left behind after joseph told them that they were settling a city of god because they figured if we're sudden's i on the maybe the profit should be hanging around and helping do it right no no. I'm a hands off profit. The that's the things when joseph returned he found that the number of his missouri congregation had doubled since the last time he was there from from three hundred to six hundred new and furthermore it seemed as if bible prophecy was coming true through the actions of andrew jackson wow like the evangelicals evangelicals are using donald trump's incompetence in order to trickle their own end game scenario. That's wild so what did what was jackson up do that <hes> that he predicted it was during this time that president jackson began forcibly removing native americans from their homes in the east and started relocating them just over the missouri border in the first push to strand the tribes in the more worthless parts of the midwest but instead of looking upon this with horror and shame as we do now the mormons were ecstatic because to them this was god's way of returning the lost tribes of israel aka the layman nights to the promised land aka just outside missouri. Oh god tell me that the thing that all the angels are going to live in far town u._s._a. So smith returned turned ohio on cloud nine. Not only was his congregation growing but prophecies that he'd made seem to be coming true and it was just after after joseph returned to ohio that a young man from vermont named burgum young showed up in kirtland having read the book of mormon and swallowed every word as has truth will eventually brigham young would be the one to lead the mormons to utah after joseph smith's inevitable death but until then while brigham was a close follower joseph he was a bit of a background character but speaking of brigham young it was around this time that joseph smith started truly designing the city of zion it would boast twelve twelve temples which were blocked out in squares of uniform size with farmland on the outskirts. Actually people said that it was a feat of urban planning and before we we say that it's ridiculous for joseph smith have such grandiose ideas consider the fact that just fourteen years later brigham young used those exact same plans to build l. salt lake city currently population two hundred thousand all right yeah did he playing for the utah jazz and it wasn't even necessarily surly that ridiculous at the time by eighteen thirty three three years after mormonism founding joseph a gun from six dollars to thirteen hundred not a bad turnaround but with success comes attack in the mormons were about to face their first real religious persecution as a people rather than just a personal attack on joseph c always heard that the mormons were heavily persecuted in their early years but i'd always wondered why because yes mormons are weird but they're not that that weird and in the beginning mormons were mostly peaceful yeah. They weren't trying to attack people yet. At this point they were just trying to set up shop. <hes> and i mean i think ironically their weird because is there so normal and bland kind yeah well femme brody in no man knows my history laid it out pretty simply see at the time independence was the edge of the american confront tier and the types of people who settled these frontier areas where not the most welcoming and open folk in fact it could be said that many many of them were on the frontier precisely because they had inherently antisocial personality. Tell you something you button-down little shit. You call this part of the country asshole country before this time period when people sort of moving moving into an area these antisocial personalities they just go further west there was always moorland but after andrew jackson forcibly removed the native americans americans just over the missouri border declared it indian territory missouri was suddenly the end of the line. They didn't have anywhere else to go and furthermore the mormons were going over the line and tell them the tribes that they not only deserved rights which should rise up and form their own nation. Okay wow this is like iran. Contra shit is like a thing where they go and take that group and you know you guys need to group together and you guys need a former roane shit. You also need a leader. Joseph smith is just blend enough to turn all you white oliver north of religious legislators. I suppose interesting so now was this done out of compassion for the native it was or was this sort of <hes> handed now now it was a way to pump numbers but because they saw that all of these like it's more like it's like these people are ripe for the picking. We'll take these people. We can bring them into our fault. Because that's the thing they also believed that they could turn them white. They believe that like they believe that they could turn them. Why they like okay. We can take the native americans as we turn them white. Suddenly we're the biggest fucking religion in america but that's how brigham young actually got like super close with joseph smith. He kept a super secret warehouse of paint paint stint case and on the more municipal minded side of independence missouri. You had guys guessing pretty soon. Independence indi- was going to be a mormon town with mormon mayors mormon cops and mormon rules and these men this was unthinkable because they believed mormons were idiots hits who'd been swindled by a con man in his twenties who claim that he received messages straight from god and <hes> and the top it all off the mormons were enthusiastic about their beliefs and and seemed ecstatically happy which nobody likes. It's really fucking annoying a noodle shops in the first couple years of the cult. It's like i get it. You guys like chickpeas. Stop singing songs. You guys are all acting like you're better than me better than may i mean it happens on a micro level. I had a friend who converted one on friday. He left and then he came back on sunday and he tried to chastise me for drinking a beer and i was like we were just hammered on thursday and so yeah it definitely does make you feel like less than yeah but all this could have been forgiven or at least tolerated if not for one thing mormons didn't own slaves see at this point point in american history we were only about twenty five years from the civil war and the arguments and conflicts that led to the civil war were already happening because civil wars are a slow-burn. No i saw a movie it ended at all and then america was great and then i saw it so then the credits rolled a memory i saw that one black and white ken burns. This movie that i think is called. Go sleepy big time. Remember like losing in moskowitz and all of a sudden it's morning. Kim burns civil. War is a fascinating document is honestly a really i can listen to shelby foote talk all night long and i have been wind net was blown alone. Muskets were fire in grits. The were above at this time calling yourself an abolitionist or even suggesting jesting that may be slavery wasn't the way to go could get you murdered in places like missouri especially if you printed something that said so and then the mormons and did just that without the permission of joseph smith a missouri mormon printed an article declaring that their church was unseparated and it was probably a good thing thing that people were starting to turn on slavery in response the non mormons in town drew up a manifesto that essentially told the mormons to either leave or face dire dire consequences so once again the mormons bent and printed a full retraction saying quote having learned with extreme regret the article entitled free people of color in the last number of the stock has been misunderstood. We feel duty-bound to state in this extra up that our intention attention was not only to stop three people of color from emigrating to the state but to prevent them from being admitted as members of the church. It was opposite sit day. Good lord almost did something right oma. They had to walk that back but it's interesting again right close to the peoples rose temple because they were very close to being like on the right side of history where the the kind of were using these kind of use wedge issues essentially to get the other side on in their corner. It's like why you see a struggling comedians go right yeah trying to get cater to audiences <music> but the other thing about the mormons and the slavery issue is that if they would have gone full on abolitionist we probably would not know the mormons today because they would have all been murdered her like they didn't have to go as far as they did because they went all the way on the other side but if they would've come out as fallen abolitionists they probably league would've all been rounded up and shot more examples and more evidence that religions are man made <hes> but even though they printed that retraction the about face didn't didn't work after the missouri manifesto condemning mormons was read at a town meeting a mob march to the offices of the mormon newspaper destroyed the printing press us and tarred and feathered to mormon but still the mormons didn't leave so the mob assembled once again and threatened church elders with one hundred lashes each which is tantamount tantamount to a death sentence then fifty people attacked a mormon camp demolish cabins and whipping the men and on and on it went until two non mormons and one mormon ended edet. It got so bad that the lieutenant governor of missouri lilburn boggs he had to call all in a militia to restore order the state militia men. They must've been so excited and ready to go. I got a flag the guy it's fun. It's like 'cause play but we really kill people but since boggs was pro slavery he cited with the non mormons enforce the mormons to disarm the mob ransacked their homes in burnt everything mormon to the ground at right by the morning twelve hundred mormons had fled independence to nearby clay county bounty who had more reasonable people who felt sympathy for the mormons after word had gotten out about their treatment right but the one person who had no sympathy was joseph smith <hes> what is happening. I don't know this for sure but i'm guessing that joseph smith was super pissed off about the article that kicked off the whole thing 'cause he's just trying trying to get this colt on its feet. Okay again have some compassion what he's trying to do here. He understands people. Wanna make a moment. People wanna do all these things i get it. We may have had a couple of meetings where we said we're pro getting rid of slavery. That's great. We keep it all inside on the rush to we get our mormon judges to we get our mormon police officers and then we can chase everybody who's not fucking unlike us out into the desert <hes> but he said that the whole thing had happened because his followers had envied lusted and coveted he put it all aw on that <hes> meanwhile joseph's griffin ohio was slipping as well disgruntled ex mormon named far lastest hurl but the last a long line of hurled butts hurl but joy earl but actually change it when we moved over to this country from vomit ask uh-huh oh the earl butz he traveled to joseph's hometown and gathered a volume of negative trivia on his former profit profit after obtaining affidavits for more than a hundred people who all said joseph smith was a lion piece of shit hurl but printed the testimonies and dispersed them among the people of kurt line but brilliantly joseph smith got ahead of the story oh at the entire thing out loud to his congregation irrigation during a sermon ripping each page as he read it saying that each word of the testimonies had gums had come straight from the dental l. Let it and reverse that reminds me as well with jim. Jones wasn't there that news article in the news articles were coming out consistently about the peoples temple and then he got out in in front of that as well the one in the san francisco newspaper right at the end <hes> kind of sword <hes> it was he was more like okay. I gotta leave now and i gotta take everyone with. Ah things were crumbling at that point. Joseph smith just have these political skills. That's a that's again. The real difference where l. r. h. was a businessman. Jim jones used nice to have those skill sets and completely insane and he'd left. It abandoned. All joseph smith was trying to stay in the pocket. We'll again where this is. The case i will build eventually that we will see that joseph smith had a long game that he was trying to be essentially king of america. Yeah i do believe on some level all that joseph smith was going to be an incredibly dangerous figure if he's life wasn't cut short interesting yeah i mean you could say that <hes> l. r. h. was a businessman. Jim kim jones was more of a community leader and joseph smith was a straight up politician okay so soon after <unk> last hurl but putting all joseph business out on display at work. It's not seems to work right for us. Hurled literally the whole thing would be like oh by the way the name of the doodoo wrote. The article is full asked us hurlbert so funny right that guy parley pratt and lyman white arrived in kirtland demanding ending protection in missouri and since joseph needed a reason to leave for a bit and since his people were wondering why he hadn't helped missouri mormons already joseph joseph had a revelation that he should form an army to face their persecutors get it eventually two hundred men volunteered mcgann marching south to missouri missouri and it was pretty much about as goofy and poppy of a marches. You'd expect tool. I mean rather than a bloodthirsty horde of avenging angels mormon. Militia sounds more like a trip to the renfrewshire with a bunch of fucking nerds with your mom. You got anything bad about the rim for people. Listen know that i love a good renfrew. I i am going to rent fair. I'm doing it next year and i cannot wait. I'm gonna wear a brassiere. I'm pushing them up and we'll be prettiest gal there but i'm not gonna take the friends that i went to the ren faire. I'm not gonna take them to war. My war friends joseph kind of took his ren faire friends sitting there is like okay we need. We need need a militia army some big boys and he's looking out and he sees like tubby samson and he is called covered in like barley. Arly juice can run the cannons and he's looking at skinny joe johnson johnson. It's just there and he's got a bunch of like horns and flutes flutes and he's learning how to ban like maybe if they all just like fucking die real hard maybe if they go in there and they just explode explode on those muskets. They'll be so scared of how well they died that people will fear arm but joseph also made sure it was a fantastical journey on the way down south. Joseph returned to his grave robbing days but now he had a whole established mythology g._t. Backup is finding so cool upon digging up a burial mound on the illinois river. Joseph came upon a skeleton it deftly weaving story on the fly. Joseph said that the man had been a large thickset white layman knight named zelf who who is a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet onen douglas and if you see here we'll say this. I believe this is some sort of silvery catastophic. It is green and call up in it. I it is his favorite drink now. It is called bud visa light lime flavor which is a tiny citrus vis red headed giant died of these giant lumps at his legs. Isn't that interesting wow the lies continue in since zelf have been found down with an arrowhead and his ribs joseph went on and on about the bow in which zelf had died when the story was over the mormons took the thigh-bones of the corpse as souvenirs school joe i know i'm supposed to man the cannons and all but cannot keep one of these bones going to bring it to my daughter but even though the trip was goofy it wasn't easy it was eight hundred miles from kirtland to independence and the men end didn't bring enough a real food so they survived on which sounds like grin fair food corn dodgers and johnny cakes dude honestly it just hush puppies and pancakes who i'm so i'm sold on this journey that doesn't sound that bad but late into the trip some some of the men contracted cholera aka the blue death so named because people shit themselves to death and their skin turns bluish-gray from the dehydration duration but even though the army was small badly trained because it was led by the dandy joseph smith and barely armed it was still an army so when they got close to independence runners sent word back to town that the mormons were coming to murder the women and the children all right men now line up in single file turnaround spread your cheeks poop them being so scared god betty hot better hide wilma thirsty look in their eyes. Oh look oh no they just literally such as the packers nerds the bad news bears there were a few skirmishes between the mormons and missourians resulting in a fair amount of death but the sheriff eventually stepped in into the mormons had a choice either leave or repurchase the land was stolen at double double the price and if neither condition was met the state militia would step in a bunch of frontier yokels with muskets that was one thing but a well trained militia would have torn through the mormons in minutes and fourteen of joseph men had already shit themselves to death. That's bad off okay so sad. So what is the. How do you know what what's the last drop like the last like the last thing we're like you look at some point you have to have your last squirt now the krantz just continue and continue and continue as your cramps you will know you die from dehydration but your body just continues to try to expel everything that's in your bowels and then you just die because you cannot you cannot replace place. The water that you're losing fast enough starts bringing water from all over you die of brain death. Essentially your brain dries up and you die all uh every bit of moisture. It's not a good way to go. I actually my much preferred when you just said shit yourself to death as opposed to the harsh realities of what happens when you go on a cruise ship a daily so defeated joseph returned to kirtland with a promise that he would one day return to purchase the land and he just sorta left over a thousand followers just camped out on the planes of clay county. I'll be you guys do in god. I just have to go. I think i dropped my watch in twenty mile. I just gotta go. You think he's going to comeback at all or like we just like now dude and not only got four colonels is a duke left but joseph had learned a lesson here as i said it was during this time period he'd been flushed with revelations. He'd just been throwing shit out but joseph was starting to see that people were dying because of it now whatever you might think of joseph smith he at the very least was never a death cult leader and while he did share certain aspects with other cults. This was not the peoples temple omission rikio disappointingly well. I think that's very good yeah. It's good good. I mean the mormons again and again fought just to stay alive yeah so from that point on joseph smith got choosier about his revelations especially those that that required possible bloodshed so he's taking a little bit of responsibility. Yes he is to is to his credit cool before because before all the mobs were coming for joseph smith and he could handle that he could come he could come back from. He's like i can handle it but now the moths were coming for. Everyone e tar for breakfast and i should feathers. I appreciate that y'all trying to put it compassionate lens and joseph spent because he was a great american capital g. capital but i do believe he was still looking out for number one on and i don't think that he wanted to fail and i think again. It really just boils down to. I'm a prophet now if they come and kill all these jobs that i got with me that means means. I'm not a prophet anymore right now. Amazon's gonna stop giving me so instead of expanding outward. Smith decided to focus this on cartland and for three years joseph smith and the mormons lived in relative peace and it was during this time that some of the revelations became more oriented towards personal snow behavior in eighteen thirty three joseph dictated. A revelation called the words of wisdom. Oh this revelation suggested that church members should abstain from alcohol tobacco and hot drinks i._d. Coffee and tea. That's the actual rules in mormonism. Say a hot drink caffeine specifically so you can drink iced coffee. No no no you can't. It's coffee to them. He is just saying a hot drink. Doc fees under the category of hot drink yeah but i but jove judge wanted to. I want some ice cubes in this coffee here. It's cold now as good right used. I used to be a hot drink. Always a hot drink coffee. That's how it is you go. You talk geo d you don't offer me. No one might think that this was joseph smith jumping opening on temperance trend gaining traction at the time because you know joseph smith always paid around they always paid attention to what was going on around him but from what brigham young himself wrote the real motivation is in recent in the last episode was much more domestic turns out the suggested ban on tobacco alcohol and caffeine came came after emma went on and on joseph about having a clean up all the tobacco spitting her kitchen after every meeting of the apostles. This is completely -pletely true. He this is practical so literally had to ban it for everybody because emma didn't like it and they had to have two meetings is in your house. Why can't just get just hire a cleaning person or maybe he clean up. A little bit image didn't like it. I was filthy disgusting habit. She it just oh you don't like it. You know what's going to happen. God it's gonna turn your fucking dick into an asshole. How 'bout that you're gonna shoot out your front and you're you and you whole yeah. You might get used to it a- sure but you're going to have to get fucked from the front to and that's fine if you wanted to feel good. It's just different but that's the thing is that joseph. It started off as a suggestion. It was something that will both please the wife and keep joseph cole with the boys because just as is like hey it's not me it's got sorry guys yet. It'd be pretty pissed off but sidney but sidney rigged on who sounds like a miserable old bastard seized the opportunity opportunity to push for full abstinence he put forth the vote completely banning any altering substances and it was promptly he passed and this is why to this day mormons can't smoke drink fucking cup of coffee. Oh brother when we were in utah. They drink that. What is for sure. Those were not mormons that we were drinking with. We were in salt lake city. It's all mormons gone now. There's a very large part of the city that is not mormons jones him by the anger anger in there is i am assuming that they were many mormons ex mormons either way they were angry yeah but just capital ex mormons they were mutants. Ah this is a very interesting concept that you're going to see right as we go and the more and more explains next episode when we talk about the ritual behavior of the mormons. We're going to see how these little ideas are going to be called back to ask time goes so we'll do these these little things these little revelations is to become solid rules inside mormonism joseph smith and brigham young later on we're going to use them as hanging points for the major magical theology allergy of the entire religion and the us these things to say but you see that wasn't just some kind of arbitrary thing you not being able to have coffee and also right obedience and he's about purifying your body because if not you can't have thousands of god thousand god wives on your own personal planet <hes> yeah and they're still doing this shit just a couple of weeks ago. The church issued a reminder to members that vaping is not allow aw and they also warn them to be on the lookout for any drinks ending in the suffix tino chino. It's it's gonna have caffeine in it. You can't have that just because it's not called coffee doesn't mean it's not coffee ice decaf coffee. Ah did you guys read. The memo started as a hot drink. I grew it except it's cold ru but still hot drink and i don't i think to make cold brew decaf but while the mormons were passing these internal laws joseph smith decided that the mormon should be an educated people so he opened the school of the prophets fits in march of eighteen thirty three but in educating both people and himself gypsy smith got cocky again in eighteen thirty five joseph bought four authentic egyptian mummies from a traveling flimflam man who probably figured he had an easy mark in joseph smith. How many times for these offices offs <hes> these are mummies. Mrs smith the corpse how much name this one brendon frazier won the rock doc. This isn't as rare as it sounds because during this time tombs all over egypt were being plundered and the mummy's whoever those mummies might have been in a former life or or making their way to america to be exhibited in traveling sideshows. Wasn't there kind of a mummy fever going on definitely mummy people were obsessed with ancient egypt for awhile because these things were getting popped open right then they were talking about how they used to grind up the mummies so that could be used to give you a boner pels pels essentially for many years really yeah can't believe that would actually work. I don't think it did no no no no no but i do kind of get horny thinking about eating a bunch of mummy list for joseph smith. These mummies were a real opportunity for some actual scholarship because the mummies came with papyrus scrolls which gave smith a chance to translate some of that reformed egyptian when he bought the mummies it came with these little strips ripa paris right and he's looking at them and he's like. I can totally read the never remember how did that before with the plates yeah the plates. I don't even remember the plates good but now i can really read them. Be sure to drink your ovaltine but zor is that not a hot drink shut up. No we don't know whether joseph smith actually believed he could translate a language scholars had spent centuries trees trying to decipher or not but he definitely had enough faith to spend six thousand dollars on mommy so much so what was the this bird went to the local yeah. They had a stick party. I what the hell did he. What did he say it is very interesting. If you look at the actual actual papyrus that he had 'cause they found them later on and turns out it's weird because and it wasn't anywhere close any of his translations but when you look at that stuff he did sort of he used the images much like the way a grip describes the way the colt original manuscripts in your scripts were red and why they were created. We magical languages recreated where essentially imagine early coleman al chemical magic as if the thinking thinking men crazy thinking men were looking at the planet earth and using actual landmarks an actual positions of stars in the sky to create letters that they would then turn to a language essentially h._t._m._l. Four reality and so he was doing the same thing he kind of looked at me like i could totally bullshit right right well pretty soon. He announced that he had translated the papyrus scrolls and that the writings were of abraham and joseph of egypt although smith never got around onto fully translating the scroll written by his namesake he was like <hes> it's not important this is this is not just got bored all right because the scrolls of abraham ham had quite a bit of information for the mormons to chew on and the convenience of the arrival of the scrolls didn't really seem to bother anyone. Just this guy just happened to show show up with a bunch of papyrus scrolls that happen to directly address the mormon religion okay instead. It worked as an affirmation of faith. This is what i'd like to call a a little bit of what john cusack would call serendipity abraham quite a bit to say about the heavens. I i e e space. My favorite ship can't talk about because it's hours of nonsense. Let's get to space. That's it's us not knowing enough to impress the experts and no one just enough to bore the people who don't know anything all about space. It's an area that may not be occupied by something or someone. It is indeed space. Joseph had been reading a book called philosophy of a future state by i thomas dick which dealt heavily in astronomy and metaphysics and joseph ever the aggregated wanted to work all this shit in the mormonism so so used one of the scrolls to do it and that became the book of abraham according to joseph abraham said that there was one star named co lob that sits near the throne of god or it's a planet that sits near god because joseph also referred to planets as stars so some believe the co lob is a planet. The earth was created next co op then was moved to its current position. Some people say that cola is in the constellation of cancer. There's also some people that say kulab enters into it actually lives in the general center of the universe and it's either a plan that is god it is a planet in which god lives or it's. It's a planet that elohim the first man to ever become a god lives and that god actually lives behind it simple now. I'm thinking about the star our registry that my mom signed up for and i think laura kissel stars right by right by coal up star is that wa wa wa wa and bring it back to battle star walmart time that planet in the show that has the map to earth while the citizens of the colonies are on the run from the ceylon is called in co- ball which is also the planet from which humans are said to come in the first place in battle star galactica. I actually liked that. You're bringing a battle star galactica because this this is exactly what religions are is the same way like when you think about religion and how ridiculous they are. It is the same thing as if someone said battle star galactica is my my favorite documentary. That is the perfect comparison. I love that show and you know that was scripted makeup. It's made up you know pretty sure ken burns directed that one you know yeah and then and then you take that love a battle circle acta and then you kick your son out of the house because you think he's asylum exactly well. How abraham found this planet found the planet co lob was by looking through rim anthem hide it in in the rocks back got the rocks by bringing the rocks from the first book into the fucking last book toilet god talk about a call could kill yeah and he said the seeing stones were bound to a pair of magical spectacle and when abraham looked into the sky he was able to see co- lob bob but you know that's that i don't that i can go deeper into it if everybody wants to settle down on no zabriskie's name sitting lucid amani little girl until you story about how you just believe hard enough enough you too can be kissed by old man with a beard on a planet where you're the only woman. Let's just fast forward eighteen hours. That was very interesting. Thank you that was a very good lecture but the book of abraham wasn't just a fun goofy journey into space it was also where mormonism deeply racist ideologies and policies were born taught as fact for about a hundred and forty years see the book of mormon solve the problem of where the native americans had come from the book of abraham aim to do the same thing for the black man and joseph use the exact same passage from the bible that southerners used to justify slavery the passage says that noah cursed his son ham and the hamsun canaan and all his sons afterwards should be a servant of servants onto his brethren and race to shit bags often said and and say that black people are the sons of ham cursed by their skin color so therefore they deserve to be slaves. God says that they should be slaves now. Even even though mormons were mostly abolitionists abolitionists were not popular even in the northern states because that's the kind of myth that we get a lot of times <hes> with the american civil wars that all the southerners were forced slavery. All the northerners were against it and while a lot of the northerners were against against it or at the very least didn't give a fuck. They didn't want to hear about it. They didn't care. They just didn't give a shit honestly dude abraham. Lincoln was a bummer to a lot of people yeah. Ah the lincoln douglas debates he was getting booed quite a bit yeah. They did not like to be called racist dick bags like you said they were they did they just didn't want to hear about it. Nobody nobody wanted here about. It's like oh that goes on in fucking georgia. What the fuck do i give. What why do i care about georgia. I live in fucking albany but it's interesting how even then these types of narratives are used by by side hustler's. He's flimflam men who can use these gigantic currents of thought and we them in and know that now being like no i gotcha now. We're gonna and go this and then what i'm also going to do with this weird racist ideology. I'm also gonna tie it into essentially z. New level of understanding the corn quote z. New level of this is the super secret knowledge. Only you know right because i only teach you i it was revealed to me through the faculty not of abrek i could read the scrolls. I give them to my council. Then then it dribbles down and then they're going to be lessons as you go deeper into the story that these are this is now the real. Oh quote unquote real story that everything's about that. You have to be special to learn so this is your cult leader twofer where you have people feel better then and then you also have people divided now also this is good for them. D- perennial power of the secret schools the secrets that have always been there the idea that you have pyramid structure or only one person knows the secret keys to now all the people are doing in secret schools skull and crossbones they play salty cracker and they hold that hostage over the politician when they run for office and they're like you better vote with big oil buddy otherwise we're gonna talk about how you eight fifty ounces of calm <music> on crisp and i kind of feel like i kind of miss that the last forty four presidents like new would come tasted joseph use of expanded the story of ham into a mill tony narrative with with the battle between lucifer and jehovah like paradise lost but instead instead of just being a two sided war joseph added neutral angels who refuse to fight at all and it was those angels who were cast into hell after jehovah one but to earth and boom you got black people these are the people because so it starts with is the first man god that was a part of because mormonism is actually a polytheistic belief. They believed that there are countless gods and that they they're god is the only one that is they worship right. They worship elohim which is their creator. God who was the first dude to ascend to god hood and his two sons were lucifer and jesus and they were the ones fighting each other and it created a gigantic gigantic sifi. This is where sci-fi which is why. I am interested right now. That's a very interesting commercial for ancestry dot com well this section of mormon lore which prevented black the people from even entering a mormon temple would be official policy intel nineteen seventy eight win as the song. I'm from the book of mormon musical goes. God changed his mind about black people over really yeah. They had a revelation the head of the mormon church in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. I had a revelation and goes. You know what scratch it god said. You're cool now. He called me. He called me up and he was like hey you've done. I think they said like doc. You've done your time but you atoned for the sin of ham. You've atoned for the center of the egyptian so guys henry did mention the utah jazz earlier or is there any correlation with them getting an m._b._a. But at the same time we do need to think about championship spice. You know that karl malone too nice guy. He's got enough. We should try to get him in here. We got to get him in there and if he's surrounded by hornicek john stockton that's like two whites and one carl like it's his his name is carl and we all know what karl i will say when you go inside and dude rituals inside of the mormon temple. I feel like it would make a lot of people well has ten about wanting to join because once you get into secret land what do you do. We'll go over it next week. Okay we'll go over it in two weeks. Okay ah yeah. It's very fucking weird man. It's like having sometimes you have to reenact your own murdered. There's all kinds of weird. Mister the wire you choking yourself with your belt. Well masturbating told me to reenact tells you know there's a lot of ritual washing. 's better done by men that have raised you from supple boy supple near man all right. We'll get into it in two weeks well. This bullshit was the end of the good times time for joseph smith. Although his racist leanings got the pro slavery crowd office back for a bit he was about to get new in practice. That would piss off pretty much. Everyone at practice was polygamy and we'll get into that bowl bowl. 'til along with what got joe smith killed and mormonism part four coming in two weeks after we've got ourselves settled in europe ho right there it is mormonism part three. Thank you so much for listening yeah part four. We're getting what's called the rise of brigham young now. It's really becoming. We're in star wars world. Is there you go. That's helping me not low that the subject matter with thinking about as star wars of yes. Thank you all so much for listening and thanks for the great response buzzed us <hes> to this episode series. Everyone has been absolutely wonderful and thanks for all the d._m._z. on on instagram or on twitter. We're learning a lot. We really we have a lot of ex mormon listeners and we've heard a lot of different stories of how they were able to get out of the religion and congratulations to everyone who is now free but we will talk next week so next. We're doing elax next week. We're going to be doing a relaxed fit episode because we are revamping. Basically you're going to be watching go. Oh into the after joseph smith's death. We're going into the modern world of the f. l. d. s. We're going to talk about warren jeffs. We're gonna be talking about the under. The banner of heaven story is any several things are gonna be showing up so we're kind of setting the scenario for the next week. I'm hoping that we go through some of these emails that we've been sent so we can really see like our our listeners know fucked on them how they do yes they do and this is. We're we're obsessed. Yeah no at this at this point. We're absolutely obsessed like i love this story. It's such a fascinating tale. Yeah i mean especially like and it's even almost more fascinating than the other cults that we have covered because most of those other calls besides scientology have an expiration spiratou date and mormonism seems like it's going to be going for a very long time because i can see scientology folding in twenty years. There were just but mormonism is going to be around for as long as americans. We're only three percentage points away from possibly having a mormon president very interested <hes> all right everyone. We will see you the next time we speak with you. We are going to be a beautiful europe. I believe the entire tour is now sold out the entire two. We might have like twenty tickets left in birmingham birmingham birmingham. If you do see those tickets in birmingham get them <hes> but such that is so awesome guys. Thank you so much the fact that we get the tour around the world with our best friends and see you all like it's just such a miracle so thank you all so much upper supporting us and we will see you in duplin our first show september fourth again. Oh no many years from now like us to tell my kids. I'm 'cause i sorted out berlin. You're not wearing any pants and have friends coming over nazi berlin. You learned that in berlin grumpy marcus. Isn't it true that adolf hitler also sold out sokoll. That's going to be great can't wait. He's going to be fucking cool. Yes absolutely so thank you so much for listening. Thanks for listening to all the shows on the network had a great conversation about automation with the mike isaac. He's a new york times columnist and reporter on top at this week's. We'll give that a listen and of course keep on supporting side stories checkout side stories. He's live. It's going to be big. Gotta check it out washington d._c. November eighth for the death becomes a festival d._c. Kissel and i are going to figure out whatever that show. We have no idea what that show is going to be but it's going to be a wonderful night with all of you. At this is the first time we've ever done side stories live and we would like to take. It's on the road a little bit more. Give marcus pox a bit of a breather so he doesn't have to travel quite as much so yeah. I don't come on out and we'll it will be whatever it is but but <hes> it shall be fun joseph smith. You're going to tell us what the show is absolutely absolutely of alright. Everyone never forget hail yourselves. Oh hail satan magoo's delay and me all right. Let's go. Let's get plates. I said that the last time you did you really. I never go to a second location. Never this show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors you can support <unk> our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listen to go to last podcast network dot com.

joseph smith joseph joseph smith morrell emma smith joseph news new york mitt romney zion sydney henry joseph ziff laura kissel florida newell dan ackroyd new york murder oliver cowdery
Quit Edging Goodness Out of Your Life

The Playbook

06:43 min | 1 year ago

Quit Edging Goodness Out of Your Life

"I can change. Everyone's life if I could give you a great Three three lenses. I could give you if I give you a meltzer kaleidoscope. Here's the three lenses I give you one a lens of productivity so if we practice Lands is something that we see with we really see not the is we see Z.. With so imagine if you live your life with a lens of productivity so you're walking around seeing yourself how can I provide value. How can I provide value rate? Productivity is productive his providing value. Right so the first lens of the Meltzer Kaleidoscope is productivity. The second is accessibility inaccessibility that duality of Lens. It's how can I be accessible to everyone. Okay I'm going to take our out of every single day that I'm traveling around no matter where I am and I'm GonNa make myself accessible for anyone that will show up and most importantly this practice you're talking about that. Everyone needs help. With how my accessing would I want this. This is same Lens. If I'm acceptable to everyone else I also want to access what I wanNA making room for what I want so again. Those people that accidents can appreciate and give it back away out so three lenses one productivity and providing value to accessibility to others and accessing. What I want? And then finally the key cornerstone Stone Lens of my kaleidoscope is gratitude is the most powerful thing in the universe and it's a lens that's all it is. It's a lens it's you either can use it or not right it's like a kaleidoscope you looking. That's beautiful that's what gratitude gives me. Every day. I get cut off on the street and the old Dave meltzer ruined my whole day. More the MELTZER cloud scoops has. Aw thank you thank you for slowing me down. Thank you for allowing me have an opportunity. You're really learn the lesson and appreciate that. My life is valuable that I have to be careful that I have to look out for others that there's all these lessons and then when I start looking looking at being cut off is something of a reminder of a lesson or a lesson to be learned because the lessons will keep on coming. I pay attention to it because I know the equation of this mathematical universe of everything. Infinity is that what I pay attention to if I give intention to it through the Lens of productivity accessibility ability ingratitude. That's we're intention is right. That's our activity so if I'm paying attention to what my activities are my intention the coincidences that I want that I want to raise the awareness in the intention to the coincidence is the code siding the mathematical currents of of two angles that coincide into one ingle perfectly. That's what's GonNa occur coincidences. That I want will kerr. The coinciding of that black matter in the emptiness in the intense and people don't understand this formula. They make it so difficult because they're not gracious. They're not forgiving. They're not accountable and they're not inspired. Most common question people ask me is. How do you stay motivated which relates to all your answers? How do you stay? Motivated debated back because they're watching the videos and although the videos aren't real right. This allusion is taking all this. I do live my life in activity right. I hate the word a busy. I mean he's unavailable. I have activity. I get paid for activity. I don't get paid for I try to maximize through that kaleidoscope. The activity I get paid for which is answers all these money questions and and also answers the bankruptcy question but in the end it's motivation. That people want they want to be happy. You cannot be sad if you're motivated. You cannot be sad if you're enjoying the consistent everyday persistent without quit pursuit which is motivation. Your potential not mine but think about it. How do you stay motivated? You know why I believe we all are connected to the great source of power light and inspiration always. I've transformed the idea of what I do. Most people think they have to get motivated. Athletes all the time. Right come on. Let's do we gotta get not me at all what I'm constantly doing is actively trying to clear the connection between what I already have. If you knew the power in the stores in the back in the day that you're walking with you call it. Whatever you want bite has been named a whole bunch of names? God Jesus Muhammad Joseph Smith and I can go on and on Buddha whoever and whatever you think but if you knew what you were walking with and I'll give you proof physically proof of what you're walking with. It is physically proven that in my pinky he I have enough power at all times to light up all of downtown Los Angeles that so much energy as in just my pinky it's medically proven what your body contains Electricity Trysofi. Yeah and we're not using it. But I know I know I have shifted the Paradigm Power Energy and light in love inspiration inspiration to know that this power is always year. So what am I doing to interfere with it from this connection to come to me in this connection to go out to you. How am I not lighting up cities and guess what the Internet and the instagram and the twitter and the tick toxin said all? These things are now giving me the opportunity light up cities. I have entire cities that people that will watch me and they will light up. The energy will go. Oh I'm figuring it out not because I'm figuring out how to connect to it. I'm just big on how to clear the connections. The two connections that I have it's it's a quantum entanglement I have a connection to the greatest source of power and light and inspiration of all time. Then I got to figure out the second connection is how do I transferred to you. How do I light you up up up in? Even if I can't do it in person how do I do it on a video or on a voice. You'll how can I get to you to say. Hey let me help. You know what it feels like to clear the connection the corrosion the interference that we're creating that's the EGO. That's what the Eagle does it. Edges goodness out of your life. EEG Out exactly it. Does it creates the interference and people are constantly working working in putting their will and activity towards. Oh I got to connect here. It's like we know those people that are working hard working smart doing the right things. They believe the right things but they're not getting what they want. I'll tell you why because they're running around trying to connect something they're already connected to instead of trying to clear the connection to its. They're already connecting to it's subtle but deep it will change your life.

Dave meltzer twitter Los Angeles EGO Muhammad Joseph Smith
Repicturing Leadership in the Restoration | An Interview with Anthony Sweat

Leading Saints Podcast

52:55 min | 6 months ago

Repicturing Leadership in the Restoration | An Interview with Anthony Sweat

"Welcome back to another episode of the leading saints. Podcast if you've enjoyed content on this podcast. It's important that. I tell you about the leading saints newsletter that we send out every week this newsletter keeps you up to date on all the current leading saints content releases including podcasts articles online events and even live events. That might be happening in your own area in this newsletter. We also recommend some past episodes and written articles that you don't want to miss each week. We include additional leadership perspectives and thoughts. That you can only find in the weekly newsletter. So you definitely don't want to miss out to subscribe to the weekly newsletter simply text. The word lead to four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash. Subscribe again text. The word l. e. a. d. two four seven four seven four seven or visit leading saints dot org slash subscribe. So you don't miss any future leading saints content value jones. I live in central michigan. Where i serve as branch president. A kind of rural branch seeing steak service missionary assignment and it's giving me some new experiences and new perspectives on several smaller rural areas. And how to lead their like a leading saints because it gives perspectives from the average church member. Many times i mean you've got many experts in shape their input as well but i also enjoy hearing from the many average hirsch members who are just trying to do their best to fulfill their callings and a half learned a few things from their experiences. And i'm grateful to be able to support meeting saints because Just have voiced such content. And you're working to build the kingdom. And i think your your objectives and goals sir her very laudable. Welcome to the leading saints podcast. My name is kurt. Franken if you're leading saints. I'm glad you found us. We are a nonprofit five. A one c three organization dedicated to helping latter day saints. Be better prepared to lead and we do that through content creation. Much like this podcast episode. We have four hundred plus episodes than i encourage you to jump in and download and listen to. There's some great ones in there. Most of them are fantastic. We also publish articles on line leading. Saints dot org. We have a weekly newsletter. We virtual conferences all sorts of ways that we published content to help just get further perspectives and understanding in the world of leadership as it relates to the context of being latter day saint and in this episode. We have the opportunity to welcome back more. Popular guests to the podcast. Who is professor. Anthony sweat now of you know that the anthony sweat is a professor at byu of church. History and doctrine. I believe is official title. I may have got that wrong but he recently come out with a new book called re picturing the restoration and the online description says while existing artwork that portrays. The restoration is rich and beautiful until now many key events in latter day saint history have surprisingly never been depicted to accurately represent the historical record. The purpose of this volume is to produce paintings of some of the represented events in order to expand our understanding of the restoration. Each image includes a richly researched historic background. Some artistic insights into the paintings composition and application section provides one way this history form are present faith and an analysis section offering potential questions that can be considered for further discussion through these new paintings artists. End professor anthony. Sweat takes readers through the timeline history of pivotal events and revelations of the early restoration. This book is not just. A wonderful book is also a pedagogical book using art as a launching pad to learn evaluated apply in discuss important aspects of latter day saint history and doctrine as readers pitcher the restoration. So that's on from the desert book. Websites published by desert book and anthony sweat. I consider a close friend now. Just so i learned so much from them. I love his artwork featured it in my office and a lot of the work. I own is in this book and So we have a discussion in this interview about this artwork about how it relates to leadership. because there's many moments that anthony sweat captures that are directly related to some leadership dynamic and into so fun to talk about and just learning from anthony just always enriching in. I know you appreciate as much as i do. So we're excited to have back on the podcast also throughout this interview. I realized it's an audio interview. And so we're gonna reference various You know visual fx paintings right so the date that this episode publishes. We're going to put all these images that we reference on our instagram account. If you go to instagram dot com slash leading saints. You'll be able to find us their follow us there and you'll see the painting so as you go along you can reference that that link is in the show notes as well so anyway. Let's get into it. Here is my interview with professor. Anthony sweat the author and artist of repairing the restoration. Today i'm connecting with professor. Anthony sweats. How you anthony to be with you my friend. Yeah this is one of many interviews. We've done and i hope there's many in the future i always enjoy our conversations and again jump into it. You were recently called his bishop. I ain't going well. That's a loaded question right there. My brother is going. That's the answer. I'll give right now. Yeah i can't imagine the transition especially during a pandemic when things were shutdown How did that all work out. Yeah well it's interesting to be called in the middle of the pandemic. i was called rightous right as we are getting directa. Try to start our ward meetings backup. So i've told people it's it's like being called. Your train was derailed in ten feet. A modern your jobs to not only dig out lay new tracks. So right it's been it's been fun. It's been challenging rewarding and all the about like every leader who listens to. The us knows cool. Hopefully you're jumping into few podcasts episodes. That are that are on the defead. nice awesome awesome. And you're also just finished a project that has been going awhile. The repick during the restoration book. Yeah and New art to expand our understanding. And i've always appreciate not gone to education week last few years. And i always make sure i attend your presentations one you know. I started college with the intent. Says you did do to sort of go into art. I got a two year degree in art and now all have the show order on the character artist. But i said down my paintbrushes years ago and you do the same and now in the treasury department you are. You're able to to mix these combined these worlds in some like. Yeah yeah i am. And that's i got my as you mentioned. I got my bachelor's degree in painting and drawing in fine art and i always intended to use my art for religious purposes to teach. I always wanted to do religious art and so it was kind of even though god led me a different direction in terms of my fulltime career to become a religion. Professor author speaker is kept painting and painted on the side. Because i love it but also because they want to use it and as a mood into my profession particularly teaching church history and doctrine. I just noticed like man. There are a lot of really important scenes from the restoration that have never been busy depicted. They haven't been depicted according to the historical record so made a list and started to tackle him and twenty five paintings later. There's this book project walks you from the first vision. Dan through the martyrdom of joseph smith re picturing the restoration looking at some things a little differently or things that have never been depicted before. And that's it. You know here if you hear that and be like oh yeah. That's great that you know. Somebody's taken on to paint these things. But i don't think people truly or fully understand how much we are impacted day to day with art with design with everything. I mean not just paintings but even when we walk into a building just always the architecture laid it out in our our influence to walk through that building and even with our in that the navigation of our faith the development of a testimony know growing up in this sort of the the thing here right that oh well. There's this painting of joseph smith like sitting down with the plates in front of him in so we make assumptions and it's not like that was actually forced on us. I mean sure. Maybe there's not enough pitchers than you've you've included some with that translation process may be more accurate but painting in are really influences us more than we realize. Yeah most of it is subconscious. We don't realize that we're consuming those artistic images as our source material for history and scripture which is a huge burden and responsibility on the shoulders of artists because artists aren't always intending to be completely historically accurate. That's not the role of art role of artists to get us to inquire expressing the'll and and search and message. The language of art does really well but in that process is artists. Do that and use their tools. We as consumers also have a tendency particularly in the church. I can be frank. Yeah we have a tendency to be very literal and we're littoralis and we take things visually and consume them literally and so we started a former conceptions of scripture and our conceptions of history based off the art that. We've you i love you. Share various examples even in us history. The the what is the prayer at the george washington prayer. Where the With saying right there. If i said tell me about george washington's prayer at newburgh new york you have no idea or maybe it's called the New heard never heard of it right most of your listeners. Probably the that means nothing to them. The irony of that prayer is of very well historically documented prayer that washington wrote and it's read every day at the reasoning ceremonial at washington's tomb in mount vernon yet we don't know but i can say almost every listener go. I think he means the at valley forge. Now i don't mean that prayer but the reason why you and i know that prayer is not because we've ever studied any sources related to we know because of freberg right. Yes a been remarkable paintings. That are touching dry you towards george washington and eighth and everything and there's nothing wrong with that but it's just it is whether it's the power of art it shows how art embeds in our memory and art gets us to know narratives that otherwise we wouldn't know and that's one of the driving purposes of this project is a lot of narratives that we know like washington's prayer valley forge using historical example. We know those in their driven through visuals. We don't necessarily know them and have them driven through history itself. So that's one of the reasons why i was like you know what not a lot of people know for example that women for a hundred years in our churches history women gave healing blessings of faith. Now do be very clear not by virtue of the catholic priests hold. That's a modern conception and process that we've quote From the eighteen thirties to the nineteen thirties. A lot of people. Just don't know that that was practice for one hundred years that women blast as a gift of the spirit and so one of the images that i did in there was Female healing seen through faith. Now people know that For example that will all take a great one know. Michael detected the devil or adam on the banks of the susquehanna river when satan tried to deceive joseph smith as an angel of light. Where's the paintings of that. Be screaming detained. So i did. It saw right or or that. We were saying black african men to the priesthood offices during joseph. Smith's time so these are the type of images. I was like you all. I want to tackle these. I wanna paint these to help us more richly understand our history and to more richly understand our doctrine or face and have dialogue around. Yeah so. I'm curious just from the leadership standpoint especially now with your perspective is official in sometimes had on the spot guest shoehorn leadership in everything and maybe it's like hanging out pitchers great but like a wish. You leaders understand. Especially now. I think in the last year leaders got sort of a like a standard arts pitchers appropriate. Hang up the building. You know you can't just think everything. I remember my time. Bishop this picture of. I think it was a painting in older painting of of jerusalem. And you'll see it around and unlike jerusalem's great. But i hang up some other pitchers and i tried to take off. The wall was like bolted on there. I'm like alarm going off right exactly. And so i'm like i guess i'll just put up with that. I did for five years. I lifted that painting but curious. Like what role should leaders consider as it comes to art. How could they use as a tool i mean. Is there anything we can learn there. Yeah i think there are has a role leadership if you take president. He in cle- when president he said teaching is the very essence of leadership are teaches on so it's not shoehorning at all talk about our leadership. That's great kurt. get If teaching is the very essence of leadership than art teaches and every leader. All of us need to be conscious of what our is teaching. I think that's one of the things that the church when in this last year when they sent out this directive on art in our feuer's in particular it's the institutional church saying hey those feuer's aren't about pinewood derby announcements and they're not about you know they should be nine should be inviting. They should be beautiful and they should testify of jesus and so when somebody walks into our building. They should immediately know that we believe in saving of india. Jesus christ art is teaching that and leading that so i hope people grasp that concept that art is part of leadership and art is part of teaching so number one to follow those directives but also number two. I think in places where you do have the prerogative to select your own art and to hang it up whether that's in your office home or even your bishop's office or or if you just look at the images that are put up on bulletin boards or in the primary rooms. Ask yourself this this penetrating question. What does this say. What is it teaching. And the great question is who is this art making phil welcome or part of a community here. People need to see themselves in art. It's really important that we see ourselves represented visually so the better that we can represent. Our congregations are our population internationally with diversity. The better that people started to say like yes. This this is my community. I see myself here. it's really important. Yeah no i absolutely agree and especially when you get outside the wasatch front. there's some diversity to be represented inside But just to be aware of it. Right like i'm sure the five bishops before me set in an office and you could ask them in the middle of their service. What's hanging up your while named a. I don't remember just sort of being being aware of like when people walk in that four year. what are the what are they seeing. You know and and there are. I know my my brother in prince. See he you know. They contact the the facilities management and their budget than you'd be amazed how much you can change in a in a church refreshing the art or i know some buildings will still have the nineteen eighties regular images on their. Which maybe it's time to refresh those you know. There's so much great art especially the churches native is doing a great job at trying to procure and make available a art. The helps promote that kind of inclusion is. Well i mean just ask yourself questions of how many pictures of jesus are up. You know. i know you're episode with john hill. And i have looked into this and and you know dui show images of christ and his atonement his crucifixion. I guess semi do. We have images of women. We have images of people of color. These are all very important to try to save these. These are the things we love. These are the things we value. These are the things. We teach for our members of our congregation. Yeah and i'm just thinking like again going back to the bishop's office you know the images that you intentionally hang up in there can be tool for you as you know. You talked about the atonement in there or store forgiveness or you know to be really intentional that or even having images that you can pull out to to teaching that sort of the classroom. That never gets really talked about. I mean there's nothing more than happens in their teaching weather. The bishopric from the spirit. Welcome so to be really intentional about that. So that's great anything else as far as the tool of art in as from the leadership standpoint how we could use our. Yeah on say. Don't even though my my purpose of my project. I've been working on the last six. Years is very historically based and trying to represents things from history that maybe haven't been represented before like we would do a great service to all of our members to just give a disclaimer. That arts is meant to represent concepts or ideas. it's not meant to be interpreted as an official doctrinal pronouncement or to be interpreted literally. This is so important otherwise we get people who think you can't show picture of an angel with wings as though somehow were you know we know. Angels don't have wings as though that central to our doctrine or something but sometimes people get caught up on that like symbol. Hold up a picture of harry. Anderson's beautiful painting of the second coming and they'll say well the problem with it. This isn't doctrinal correct. Because we know according to section one thirty three. That christ will come in a red robe. Not in what you know. What i'm saying may not do that right. Because what that does that subconsciously tells our learners that art should be always historically doctrine the accurate no matter what whereas you know sometimes art is meant to simply inspire and invoke and like. Let me give you just one example in one of my paintings in repairing the restoration. I painted god really big light. Huge thirty feet tall. Now that does not doctrinal. That's not. There's no united stephen from first presents. The twelve on god's height bright. But the reason. Why did that. I wanted to send a a concept that god is big and that god is bigger than us and so that's using the language of art using symbol and metaphor to try to teach a concept which art can do a great job. So that's another big picture. Perspective is when you are using art to teach learn how to be visually literate to use art to do the great things that art does not to pigeonhole art into always being one hundred percent historically indoctrinated accurate. If anybody's listen to this right now going well it should be. I lay down a challenge to you to try it yourself right. Most often people who want art to be perfectly. Historically accurate have never picked up a paintbrush themselves. Because the moment you do you realize that you have to make decisions to communicate thing jail free. Were one time sent. So there's there's no to paint. That says i don't know you have to paint something so when we paint. God you don't know what god looks like neither. Do i mean we don't paint him. I don't know how tall he is. I don't know what his skin color that. I notice facial features. Look like but i still need to represent him so that we can try to connect with him so let are connect. Don't try to make arch pigeonhole. At end has to be one hundred percent accurate otherwise the language of art gets silenced. And i feel like as. I've heard you teach those concepts. I feel like there's a deeper that concept goes beyond our where there may be somebody who raises their hand in a sunday. School class makes an interpretation about a gospel principle or doctrine and some people may hear like something they say well in dismiss everything. They're saying when in reality were all sort of just trying to interpret doctrines in things in a way that the help us apply in progress. Yeah that's a great application on a broader scale. I mean we're all just being translators aren't we were all just being interpreters and just like how scripture is interpreted by individuals images are simply an artist's translation. It's one person's interpretation of scene. And i think just obviously you have the skill and ability. He's been picked up a paintbrush in do these images. Others may have a skill of being a word to her in talking and speaking in a way that you know. They're illustrating their painting a picture with words that you know that's not exactly right but no i think there's a deeper meaning. We can learn from their their interpretation as we make our you know. Let's jump into some of these As i've seen you present about these pitchers as you were working on this project. There's some that just really stood out to me like wow. There's some great leadership concepts in there. I have a few that definitely get to anyone that you want to start with a really stupid. The ones you kurt. While i love the joseph smith in is his brother as a samuel williams. Brother william joseph in william the wrestling match that happened. I'm talking about an image or instance during trajectory. We naturally Nearly ever talk about. Yeah you know most people if you said. Tell me about joe's us. Brother they would tell you about hiram or they might tell you about sanyal. They don't talk about william very much which there. There may be a reason. Why but ironically william was a member of the original form of the twelve apostles. He's one of the first twelve call in eighteen thirty five february baking thirty five. Not hire samuel william and the reason why we were hiram is really steady william is very unsteady he's you know joseph collina fierce lion that then talk about how he was unsteady in williams patriarchal blessing that he gave him. But the instance. You're referring to. I think has great leadership principles in there in that william. The story is that william as an apostle was holding it debate in his home and the debate to cut to the chase. Got little out of hand. Joseph attended the debate and said that the debate shouldn't continue. William wanted the debate to continue and kind of shoots back a sharp response to joseph. And joseph probably should've walked away but his pride got the better of him. I don't know about you. Have you ever been in a leadership. Time when you just want zing somebody and you're billion. I shouldn't say this. But i say at anyway. Yup and that's exactly. Joseph did joseph was about ready to leave within. He later writes a letter and says but as i thought about it i considered the. I helped build this house that you're living in. I have a right to talk in my father's house. And i have a right to put you in place your older brother and as the president of the church so joseph does comes down hard on him it enrages william and before joseph knows it william jumps up and from what can be -duced from the sources william physically violently attacks. His brother joseph the prophet and contrary to our back to art contrary to all of our videos who watch for joseph smith is the strongest person on earth. William gets the better of him in beats so much so that joseph couldn't get out of bed the next day and like a great older brother. Joseph writes in a letter says that when he saw the william was coming at him he was trying to take his coat off and a few Joseph would've got his coat off. He would pummel them. You know but as it was his coat caught coat and william beat him up but the reason why i think is just a great story is because for a number of weeks. Joseph williams relationship is really really strain and As it would be. Joseph leaves a number of journal entries in on it. Then they'd write letters back and forth trying to reconcile but they just can't quite reconcile each of them. William makes humble confession. But joseph says still read in your letter that you think that i gave you reason to act that way and joseph forgives him but then kind of things again in the letters and that goes back and forth for a few weeks until finally. There's a family intervention right. After new years and martin harris they are just dismiss senior. The father is there. John smith uncle is there and they just get together face to face. They air their. They both confess their faults. Joseph says the spirit of love and forgiveness what was present tears flowed fast and they frankly forgave each other so to me. I just think it's a beautiful example. There's a lot to learn from it. There's an i don't think it's negative. Like i hope that anybody hearing that story Doesn't think that. I'm being critical of joseph leaders are human and And sometimes we do overstep our bounds. Sometimes we say things that maybe we shouldn't say sometimes we do hurt feelings and by the way sometimes people hurt us intentionally. And there's a great lesson there. Where were joseph and william model for us our weakness. The the cure to that is not to be perfect because none of us are going to be perfect to cure that is to be humble to ask for forgiveness and to extend forgiveness. I love that story for those reasons in the obviously they fight breaks out and were council. You can just say well. This has happened before before. Just mccreary you get your first year but obviously it's a rarely sure there's some instances but of the of the israeli a physical fight breaking out in these council meetings but the thing is you know this is what i love. Learning about. History just the rawness of it where it got intense at times and people completely disagreed with joseph. Sometimes joe's completely disagreed with others and with hindsight we look back. The remarkable revelation came from that you know and so as things get tensor. There's conflict or discussion at times in a council meeting to me i would. I'd be more comfortable as leader seeing it. Lean more that way knowing that how we're really passionate about this. Were getting into building the kingdom rather than everybody's saying well whatever you think the show you know that your back hurt in context of that fights. Joseph's problem was that as they had this debate. The elders were debating in subject. That was the whole point of joseph problem. The reason why he wanted to shut it down he didn't like it was following the proper principles that a council should follow. He felt like there was too much pride. There was too much trying to prove a point. You know to quote. There's too much trying to be right instead of get things right. That's joseph didn't like. I don't think joseph or anybody is has a problem with disagreement. Joseph actually even calls for disagreement. He says one time. I don't wanna forever be surrounded by a set of dough heads in his councils. As you're saying like this bishop whatever you say. That's not the point. A joseph says i want people to speak their minds freely in other words. He doesn't wanna be eight people just a bunch of yes men or yes women and at another time. Joseph says in one of the reasons why we can't separate the gold from the dross is because we do not agree disagreed long enough to get to the pure gold beautiful principles. I love it. There's a difference between disagreement and violence or hurt and anger and be more comfortable with with respectful disagreement of viewpoints. The don't resort to pride and violence. That was the problem with the debate in the first place is that's where it was going. Yeah and i think what a great question leader could ask Counselor president in a princ- meeting asking have we disagreed long enough on this to really make a decision and is it should be that easy of a decision in that meets Additional operation. yeah and discussion. We haven't agreed disagree long enough. That's a great quote and we shouldn't be comfortable sitting in the disagreement for awhile without resorting to just trying to get our way in pulling our coats often punching somebody and maybe put a sign up that says no hansel allow no no. Don't have the lab with with a quote of joe male. Right exactly. nice brian. my favorite. Like obviously there's have anthony sweat painting behind me here as we record. I've seen the audience. Can't see than i have my the one you did of joe smith Restrict right all the rough stone. Did and we've talked about that before. Maybe we'll touch on that again. But if there's if my next anthony sweat purchase were to happen. Which would probably will. Once i move into a two minute office would say i love. The diverse angels' dallas. How that came to be. I think there's gives me it. I feel so much leadership in as far as like revelation and just that wrestle the leaders go through to seek more inspiration but tells about so that painting shows. I'll try to describe it for your for the listeners. It shows joseph kneeling down. It's a blue kind of background that's symbolic blue is often a symbol of eternity. And you have all these angels are six of them and they're literally diving down head first and they're each holding a symbolic item that they're offering joseph. I painted that for two reasons one. The title of the painting comes out of section one hundred twenty eight of the doctrine covenants when it starts to speak of all the angels that have ministered to him and he speaks of marone a speech of peter james and john the voice of god in the chamber father whitmer which a lot of people don't know what it is and there's a painting in there about that but then he also says the voice of michael the voice who we understand the atom. He says the voice of gabriel who we understand to be noah the voice of raffaelle which who is the angel raphael. I don't know exclusive. And i've i've researched to. There's there's different theories on it. There's no doctor stated revelation or or united statement or but then then joseph says and of divers angels each delivering their keys. Their powers their dispensations. Their glories line upon line precept upon precept to me. it's a beautiful. So i wanted to represent these angels who we don't quite know who they are. And what powers given for a twofold reason one to show that this church is authorized which we know that. This church is authorized when we say the church is true or not necessarily saying the church is perfect. Because it's not we're not saying the order is not the organization that makes the church true because the organization has changed. It's not the knowledge that makes the church true because knowledge continues to be given. It's not that we don't ever do anything wrong because mistakes have been made. What makes the church true is that the church is authorized by an djelic messengers dispensing keys to the kingdom of god and administer its ordinances if we can just grasp that concept alone when our board members say things like well. I don't think the church is true because of blink. You'll often find their criticism of the church. Not being truth that they've set up their own straw man argument that they've set up a false idol or a false premise. Of what makes the church true and then when history or experience turns out that that that they've set up doesn't hold to be true then they will not true. The church isn't true whereas the only thing that's not true is the premise that bay set up themselves or that has been set up by others For them you know the the keys of the kingdom as is elder hall and said what makes this the true church indispensable and indistinguishable Are unique from others is the keys of the priesthood keys to govern direct the work of god on the air. That's what makes it true. That's a huge point to grasp number one but number two as we work with our members and teach them and there's issues to work through the answers we don't know and things that are unresolved just point to that and say yea. Who's the angel raphael. And help them see that. There are things that are yet to be revealed yet to be resolved yet to be clarified. Line upon line precept upon precept in this ongoing restoration that will one day crescendo. Into god's will being perfectly known done on earth as it is in heaven but we're not there yet. So yeah that's what i want that image to represent and remind. Oh some of the parts of that. I want to remind people and do that. Just because i remember those lonely nights or the long meetings as a leader who hold who held the keys in and i'm just trying to seek deeper revelation and just this image of those Diving towards me is inspiring. So is there so obviously in this image you depict these angels actually diving. Is there different divers angels. I guess i visor like diversity with diversity right like is that Kurt your your interpretation is wrong and picture is gospel. That's why we that's why we have you on here again. These are all interpretation. So i am doing a play. On words ago divers both them diving but also representing diverse and in the mid. By the way. I did paint the angels diverse. There's they represent different nationalities and races in there. So maybe there's steep. Greek route or something that i missed any demolished so i can say nice. What about the. There's one the initiation to the school of the prophets in just the way that you always appreciate you know when an artist takes an image Just does it. From a point of view that you wouldn't have expected n were in Immature from the of the painting. You are or the perspective of the viewer. You're looking in into a room. Not you're not in the room. It's into the room to tell us about that on your so give brother. That's exactly what. I want you to do with images like this to interpret them and ask yourself questions like why did the artists choose to depict it that way so the viewer is standing. It's in the nikkei whitney stores if your listeners have ever been lucky enough to go to kirtland and go to church history sites. You know that there's that second floor in the new. Okay whitney store. Joseph held the school the prophets and in that room. That's where the earliest efforts began to form penicillin. The beginnings of temple ordinances. Now they weren't temple ordinances. 'cause i wouldn't paint a governance. Joseph did not describe it as temple ordinance. Joseph said that they wash their feet kinda like and he said just how. Jesus washed his apostles feet. And there's plenty of paintings of jesus washing his apostles fee. Joseph said we wash their feet so that we could be unified and our hearts knit together in love but section eighty eight also says that they were to be washed so that they could become clean from the blood of this generation is what section eighty eight says so joseph did that and that will start to lay the groundwork for what later develops As what we know is an issue pori in the church today or the washing the symbolic washing in the nineteen. In the temple. The begins to take place in kirtland later. Nabu so the reason why painted that one that way purposely placed the viewer the point of view of the viewer outside the room looking in but the doors open. It's suggesting this idea that the this school of the prophets joseph is going to start the originally. it was only a select group of people but that ultimately the door is open to all. And i hope that every priest leader in church leader released society leader young women's leader in men's leader when they hear this that they realized that radically what has happened in the temple. Today is we have been invited into a school of the prophets. That is a huge concept. Grasp the modern day school. The prophets is now. That door is open to all of us through the holy temple and when we go into that temple we are initiated washed. Anointed tot clothes instructed. Make evidence that is so huge that in the old testament the only people who were washed anointed on priestly robes and went into the holiest room representing the presence of god prophets priests and kings today. Every single person who wants to is has that privilege women and men man if we can help our members grasp that about what's happening in the temple. What the endowment is trying to do. Every great blessing for our members in for our families understand. Yeah and i just love the concept of initiation. Obviously the temple has its own way of doing that. to us. says is children of god. But also i think in the context of leadership callings. You know if you were to make me write a list of my top. Ten best friends i would guess. Seven of them would be people. I met through a bishopric leadership calling where i had the opportunity to sit in a room and the petition inspiration and guidance from god our role and so it's this brotherhood right or a sister hood that deletes the opportunity to experience and oftentimes maybe Member moves on. And you call a new guy you know you sustain amon in saffron meeting and set him apart in that it's like well hey good to have you let's Let's talk about the brownie activity next week. You know but to really liked taken intentional staff. And i'm not saying it should washing feet or anything but have some type of initiation process where they feel your brotherhood now like we have a deep divine purpose here in europe part of us. I think that sometimes gets lost with just sort of the turnover. Different callings in administration. Are you're set apart like all right word clerk mark that in the computer system right but to really i think joseph whether he was officer he definitely understood that initiation into the school of prophets. I just getting together talking about bible verses here or more verses like this is a special school you're part of brotherhood where we can learn more about got. That's a great application curtain. I haven't thought of it that way. But that's that's i like that. That's what you're meaning by december. yeah. I love We have a few minutes left Which ones do you wanna hit on before we wrap up you know. I think another great leadership one would be. I call it. Sydney sermons and some listeners may not know so. Give a little history to bed. I painted this This painting of rais delivering. He delivered to really really influential sermons in the summer of eighteen. Thirty eight one is known as the salt sermon. One is known as the july fourth ovation. Unfortunately both of these sermons had really negative impacts on the church. Nothing like by the way to give a talk and one hundred eighty years later people are doing paintings of and talk about how what a negative impact. It had on church but but the these ones did. Sydney was a great orator as many people. Now but what happened was i can back up in. Kirtland will in independence missouri. We get kicked out. Because of external apostate external mobs in independence when we're trying to establish the new jerusalem. The church doesn't fight back. We turn the other cheek and we get kicked out and then in kirtland right. After we build the temple we have internal dissension. The drives us out of kirtland. So now we've lost zion the city zion anyway and we've lost our temple in ohio. We've now gathered so far west zury and basically the question by church leadership is what we do when this happens again. What do we do. When there's internal dissension and apostasy and what do we do. When there's external mobs and the decision this time has made to fight back. And they're making that decision based off section ninety eight of the doctrine and covenants. The city delivers these two sermons in far west says okay. Now that we're hearing far west number one the salt sermon. He says. listen up. all you apostates. Who are here in far west if you've lost your faith in the restoration if you've lost your faith in the first presidency if you're trying to undermine them if you don't sustain them you are good for nothing you are salt that has lost. Its savor and you should be trodden under the foot of man. And he'll wow. He was serious. Yeah one person said. They overheard senior agency. He wanted to erect gallows on the public square to hang any apostates. Wow so out. Based off that sermon. There is a group that forms known as the dan nights. And i don't have time to hear if i can give a plug cast plug. Yeah please listen to the uae religion. Podcast letter y religion. My colleague alex box has done a lot of research on the dan. Nights listened to the episode called the missouri. Dan nights basically their oath-bound vigilante group. Who takes it upon themselves to warn out these undesirable people from a community and when they hear sydney sermon are like okay and they go knock on people's door in essence and say. Hey do you believe in the first presidency in the church or not if not you better be gone by tomorrow when they drive them out of far west missouri. The up the apostates then ciragan on july fourth delivers another sermon called july fourth oration. This one is more aimed at cornell mobs and he basically says okay. We've driven out the internal apostates now. There's any external mobs out there. If you guys come after us. If you guys try to take away our rights it will. He says quote it will be a war of extermination between us and you. He says we have turned our cheek when smitten. And we've turned it again and again and we are tired of being smitten and we will no more be smitten as what he says so that he is the one that lays down the term war of extermination and in essence is one of the things that starts to fan the flame the leads to the mormon missouri war in eighteen thirty eight with the external mobs that have us ended up being exterminated from the state of missouri and joseph smith in prison in liberty jail now to the point now the you know the history when joseph smith is in liberty jail. We all know that part of his letters that he writes would become canonized canonized in section one. Twenty one twenty two and twenty three of the doctrine Every leader who's listening to this. I can say right now quote this from memory no power influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priests did only by threat. Vigilante groups force violence fear intimidation right. That's what the second. Oh no i remember. I remember either. Maybe long-suffering yeah patient only by patients longsuffering gentleness who love on feigned kindness pure knowledge without hypocrisy charity that when we exercise the opposite of those two to exercise control or unrighteous dominion amen to the preseason authority of that man in context in by the way just after those verses in the letter joseph says we have learned by sad experience that is the nature and disposition Of almost all men they'll begin to exercise. Unrighteous dominion let our sufferings by the wickedness of dr samson eight yards suffice and that's a reference to the dan knights. Were not used to interpreting. Section one twenty-one on those verses of proper priesthood leadership in this context of sydney sermons in the dan nights but that's where they're coming from and it's a great lesson on us as leaders on how do have righteous influence. And that's why. I wanted to paint that painting of sydney giving these sermons. There's nothing wrong with giving a passion sermon. I mean look at other holland right when it becomes wrong is when we start. The used. Violence and fear intimidation threats coercion. Unrighteous dominion to try to get our way to try to overrule or overpower in particular to try to force righteousness. It just doesn't happen so we have learned by sad experience from from that from that you know from the leadership standpoint. My favorite part of the engages. The as joseph been higher on the on the stand as they say you know looking. I've often given that look to one of my counselors and thought what is he saying. Oh my goodness only gonna fix this. Painted joseph Historically from the sources josephine hiram war sitting on the stand during the july fourth. Oration kind of you know Josie i'm kind of looking at each other like do we approve of this now to be totally transparent. We can't lay all the blame on sydney. It's not known to what extent joseph was aware of all the doings of the denies. But joseph did stand up later and say that it was a good sermon. Joseph approved Nice joseph self had to learn these priests of prince so it might be in section one one toy one that the lord the joseph talking himself also an insult. Just love. You know throughout this. You're the pitchers you've shown that there's a learning process of leadership happening and We liked to joseph. Smith is our george washington. I mean he i mean he could bench press as much as we can imagine You know we just so remarkable and so much respect and can't wait to meet him sunday. But i am inspired in. That goes that the image. That i have that i appreciate so much when i look at just the another rough stone pitcher of joseph. He just looks like a struggling leader. And i just have so much empathy to him in when i look at that and it gives me so much inspiration to keep going. Keep trying keep figuring this out and now four hundred years later we look back and think wow like that. Like was remarkable much good when he did was remarkable. I'm glad to hear you say that kurt. Because that's that's my hope. I hope nobody hearing relate. Some of these stories are doing these paintings tried. I think i'm trying to diminish joseph smith in any way these paintings and these stories and these things from our early church history. Make me love him even more he is. He is a prophet among profits. But i think we're all somewhat suspicious of narratives where people come across as flawless and joseph As one writer has said that the gospel is not a celebration. Of god's ability to work with perfect people it's a celebration of god's ability to work with imperfect people and extend his perfect grace and still do mighty works through them. And that's what i see when i see images like this. It's people learning people. Growing people repenting people forgiving people relying on jesus in his grace people grasping power priests keys. Principals line upon line precept upon precept and moving forward in the restoration and doing great work. And that's that's hopefully what we're all doing as leaders in individual disciples in the church today lovett Have you seen. This is published by desert books so they can pry desert book but also online retailers is published through its co published three. Byu's religious study center and with desert book together. Go and and. I don't know how this process works. But i mean should we start seeing some of these images. Papa been material center or does that. I mean all even saying the church isn't fair. Various branches of the church that procure images to use them so whether they do or don't ever the institutional church ever uses them. that's not. Why painted them if they if they use them. I'm honored and flattered. I'm happy happy to have used them if they don't. I still hope that they can inspire and teach. Open up dialogue for you individually. And personally i see this as a great tool you clout in the bishopric meeting award council and talk about an image in history to get things started. Invite the spirit. I think it's a great opportunity offense. Burt appreciate that concludes my interview with professor. Anthony sweat seriously go check out. This book re picturing the restoration actually out of stock because the so popular especially through the holidays. So grab them while it's available and i noticed it'll it'll give you a helpful perspective especially during this time as we're studying through come follow me. The doctrine covenants. She's going to be a lot of great messages. That you can refer to during your study and with your family that been heightened that understanding and and make it a more in-depth experience as you study the doctrine covenants and again. If you want to see many of these images we reference go to the instagram account. Which we've linked to in the show notes leading saints instagram account. Follow us there and we put a post up there with the various images that we discuss in so you can see it right on your phone and also anthony. Sweat is a great follow on instagram. As well as always Talking further about some of these images and justice perspective on on the church history or or the doctrine in general. So he's a great. Follow as well and remind you once again to text. The word lead to four seven four seven four seven in order to subscribe to the leading saints weekly newsletter came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the god of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of jesus christ and when the declaration was made compared the own and only true and living church on the face of the earth. We were immediately put in a position of loneliness loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor runaway and which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.

joseph william Joseph joseph smith anthony sweat saints anthony george washington Anthony byu of church kurt angel raphael washington jerusalem united stephen hiram kirtland samuel williams
Episode 382: Mormonism Part IV - I Invented This Scam

Last Podcast on the Left

2:19:26 hr | 2 years ago

Episode 382: Mormonism Part IV - I Invented This Scam

"No place to escape to the lost on the left. That's one of the cannibalistic listen started. I'm so excited to begin mormonism part for Yeah Yeah No. It's kind of I imagine the same amount of excitement. Would it be like sitting completely nude on an marble oxen's coal right. You're in the temple. You never been in there before so you might be like kind of suppressing Chub or because you're totally nude. Maybe the cold making your penis little bit smaller but also could provide a lot of excitement sitting there waiting fitting anointment and then your daddy comes daddy then make sure you're such a good tight little mormon the literal daddy your actual father because kick dot com. This is your father. This is dad this is this is Mr Kissel. This banked kissing well. We don't have to hit it so close to home in there and he wants to make sure your penis is so clean for God has to be cleaned for God because you gotTa meet God who's not even God God's do right guy and why does why does it care if my penises Klay copy clean in one you don't get to be king of your own planet. Kessel so in order for you to be king of your own planet. Your Daddy has to wash your peniston ball then you gotta turn around and old banked his got a clean. Your butthole till is slow pristine so it's like not unlike the Alabama marble of the oxen that you've probably stained with your but juice right. Let's just start the show. This is the last podcast on the left. How is everyone everyone doing. I am Ben with Marcus and with Henry and we are coming to you live from beautiful foggy London Yeah Buddy. I am shitting liquid. Uh which I guess is called the breakfast tea here absolutely a bit of that. My wife loves it and you got a bit of the warm. Guinness runs actually because more of the Guinness Squat walks all right. We are on an to mormonism part for so when we last left Joseph Smith he was still splitting his time between Cartland Ohio and Missouri building the foundations for a religion whose membership today roughly equals that of the populations Shinzo of New York City Los Angeles and Chicago combined. Remember that as we go into detail of how this religion was founded and in Kirtland in particular Joseph Smith was trying to build an honest to God temple three stories of stone with two auditoriums and twelve pulpits because a man of God without a house of worship. It was just a common street preacher. It's like if Steven Tyler Never Mike Stan grandmother a Lotta scarf understand sure and by eighteen thirty six the temple temple was damned near finished but Joseph have made a slight miscalculation. Although the temple had helped establish his new religion as legit he had also attached a ballsy ballsy prophecy to the end of its construction. I thought you were going to say. He forgot to put him bathroom. So that would be what I would call a construction blooper but they got the big bathtubs chops. You just shut down the drain. You remember course in order to get people motivated Joseph and told his congregants that the completion cliche of the temple would coincide with the establishment of the city of Zion. The Missouri Mormons were still scattered in nasty rumours were starting to swirl in Kirtland Kirtland that threatened to ruin Joseph Smith. If you remember from the last episode they got kicked out of Jackson. County and part of the caveat of that was you guys can come back. Would you have by your land double the price right so what Joseph Smith said basically was that I promise you guys t y that I will make that money and we will get money as soon as this temple is Eric as soon as the Missouri Mormons take on the Harlem Globetrotter. It'd be a fifty dollar dollar ticket and dare. I say we'RE GONNA lose. It wasn't just the temple that was hanging over. Joseph sat as I said there were a lot of nasty rumors. Swirling Orleans around Cartland Ohio seats thought that it was in this place in eighteen thirty five that the first seeds of polygamy where plant all because Joseph Smith was was just a little too horny for his own good. That's a good way to put it. The first seeds of Liga yes yeah we're just fucking place so the dirty fingers. Joseph Smith seeing that year many think Joseph made seventeen year old fanny Alger his first plural wife. I love the term plural wife yeah because it's so much better than like sister wives plural wife sounds like the government like made you have right sounds like Michael Keaton's character and multiplicity found a female who also had multiplicity and then they had a whole bunch of sex good hotel. Tell document we'll plural wife at the very least is how the affair with Fanny Alger was later justified see fanny was was an orphan girl taken in by Joseph Smith's wife Emma because you could say whatever you want about the Mormons at the very least they did actually adhere to many of the teachings of Jesus Christ that so many of his so called followers conveniently ignored today hold on a second array talking about Joseph Smith or are we talking about Woody Allen exact exact same story for both creative powerhouse really defined the sex symbol for a generation. I showed just raise. He's a white. GonNa make a great husband. So it was wild. Fanny was staying with the smiths that Joseph seduced her and began a brief affair fair but when the whole affair went sour fanny was driven out of the church for good in some of Joseph's longest serving followers. Were none too happy about this. US among the most vocal dissenters was Oliver Cowdery who had been one of the original translators of the golden plates. Oliver was excommunicated for criticizing criticizing Joseph for the affair even though cowdery said he saw Joseph and fanny fucking jaw didn't really appreciate the fact that you made me watch a huge when we did the London Bridge falling down and then did the Eiffel Tower with that Guy I met the Harvey Defense fix that we did the Guinness Fountain but Although Fanny Alger Role in history was later rewritten to say that she had actually been Joseph's first plural wife life rather than just a teenager he seduced Joseph was still spurred to revelation by this incident him Chuck Berry would love to hear the Star a report on this affair in November of eighteen thirty five gods supposedly told Joseph that Mormon wives were commanded to essentially let their husbands do whatever ever they wanted to revelation read in part here this y'all this is straight lidge yet wives submit submit yourselves until your own husbands as unto the Lord for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church wives submit yourselves to your own husbands as it is fit in the Lord and also I'd like to add women be shopping. It sounds like something Dr Peter Laser with three people before he makes a human centipede just weird that you could just like fuck a seventeen year old that was your daughter and everybody it's all fucking mad about it but then you can just tell them I had a one sided conversation with guy told me it was super cool that we're we have to do it. You fuck do to like you. Don't WanNa fuck all these children around here. Buddy Joan right in other words. Joseph was starting to figure out that it was much easier are much more convenient to change the laws of marriage than it was to. Tom Cat around his congregations more importantly his wife's back until the day he he died so this is the power of the male erection was easier to changes all religion to keep it in his pants a lot of people do maybe. I believe that this has something to do with some kind some form of Kabbalah teaching that he understood but I'll get into that a little bit more detail later on okay polygamy was not just created the justify Joseph Smith's shrinking attraction towards his chosen wife Emma because Emma got all mad all the time. I think polygamy look at me was really he just didn't WanNa fuck you know but then I love being married. How many weddings have stressful. It's expensive serve polygamy also served a very real very cult specific problem in the Mormon Church. See sometimes a married person will swallow all of the narrative from a cult leader hold but their spouse just don't get it. Are you purposely just putting in all of these sexual puns. I've heard shrinkage swallowed concede. This is true because I did not do any of that on purpose or something. We've been alone for two weeks and I think that we do have some subconscious like I am also very you have been a lot of different. I'm going to say institutions that Marcus well when you've got a spot one spouse that believes in the cult leader and one spouse that doesn't if that belief in the story is strong enough. The person who believes sometimes will abandon their spouse all in favor of their new chosen leader now. This isn't really a problem if you're joining a cult like scientology that lives entirely outside the Christian beliefs structure but if you're Mormon Norman than your unfortunately bound by biblical rule dude. It's like just even fucking having an afternoon with Jeremy Renner hanging out with Jeremy Renner. He's got fucking his boy keys on the guitar. Interest Funny Dame's keys right everybody around him fucking a couple of guys in yeah shredded Pete. He's on the steel drums uh-huh Jeremy Renner's thrown that gay. That's short for reggae enduring with them. It's like what are you GonNa do. This is like yes. My wife is I love Natalie but you spent a a couple of days with the renter of Gore's pure heterosexual. I'm just being around. Hong Kong just start driving you wild and even though any bond can can be shattered by that scores and Smith Joseph Smith's fairly handsome to like the the we saw his death mask see he would he had a nice nice shape knows host doleful is and he's fucking telling you all sorts of stuff about the Kabbalah fucking celestial marriages that he's GonNa throw down. Maybe he also invented. Eating Pussy is okay compelling. Guy Interesting Man will as we know Joseph Smith was clever with interpretation and he knew that the Bible Oh was a sword that could cut both ways so he found a road to polygamy that went straight through the Old Testament using the examples of Abraham and in countless others who took more than one wife Smith creatively interpreted this line from exodus and if a man entice ah made that it's not patrolled and lie with a a shell Shirley and now her to be his wife interest interview think about Jesus and the twelve apostles flip it would if they were chicks from that line Joseph deduce that adultery was not in the fucking but in the levy they'd hold on a second what what was that line and if a man entice ah made that is not betrothed and lie with her. He shall surely endow her to be his wife. He's gotTA marry. You're the bad thing is leaving rafter rafter fucking her yeah. You can have sex. That's totally cool. God wants you to do the okay you supposed to get married afterwards actually. Do you have to get married before. Oh Aw yeah you have to. Ha- you can have sex with any woman you want just so long as you married them before you did so and although the widespread practice of polygamy within mormonism was still about five years away. Joe Smith also knew that more wives meant more children which naturally meant more Mormons do basically basically you make your own following and once these people are born in. It's so much easier than you're locked in. Your family is locked and that's what scientology understood about getting getting the whole family. Catholicism did the same shit in Ireland idea of just like no condoms no problem everybody's pumping out as many babies because the nets followers but it also puts towards Kabbalah idea of the heavenly father and mother the male and female Hochman right God's first emanated forms from the ultimate back up the dos version of God and the idea is that these gods came from the nothingness or everything nece and they fucked and made whole new worlds so oh now you're starting to see there is a literal the above and as a Bulla which is create more fucking children to create Mormons and then there's the below which is a spiritual virtual creation of each time. We have a baby. We've made a new Mormon planet but this really is just an extension of how farmers die have kids to take care of the farm. Yeah let's just do. He's just creating labor force yeah but he's just he's creating a religion. He's creating like an entire community because the two honestly think Beck would we've become a scientologist. He was born into it. Crazy sound sad that could go either way uniform still fun. I'm still on the fence about scientology the bad now at this time. It's a fun idea you get a boat L. RH Ukulele you got a choir you can join. It's begging today was fun. I'm not sure a Chubby man playing a Ukulele with a choir on a boat. I know it sounds like the Edinburgh fringe show fucking knowing what's he goes yes. Yes I mean for some people. The idea of ZANU is laughable but for other people I think beck is like salt. Yeah I love it but even so Joe Smith still had the issue a proclamation in eighteen thirty five following the Fanny Alger rumors that the Mormons were definitely not polygamous on you in such a thing you pervert going. This does seem like an oddly specific denial l. for the time but in those days experimenting with Sexual Relationships screwing around with the institution of marriage was fairly common among the minor Christian sects John on humphry noise of the perfectionist sensually wrote in eighteen thirty six that quote the marriage supper of the lamb as feast at which every dish is free to every guest. I Love Your analogy are you hungry can use your again. I'm going to put your mother kissed. Why are you doing this to my family on a platter cover with mint. Jelly Abor Hood is invited gye the sweet room of your sweet sweet mother don't do that to my mother's a lovely woman and when this statement was published published in a newspaper called the Philadelphia battle accent is fucking awesome great newspaper name when they got when that was published like people freaked out and Joseph Smith was paying attention to all of this. It's weird though because he was doing it if it came such an institutionalized part of early mormonism but he had the wherewithal to know inside thing then you just kind of have to be on the inside which is also his basic understanding of the secret schools calls and that we have secret privilege knowledge like yes the public can't handle that. We're fucking everybody's wives. They can't fucking handle it because it's too groovy movie close to the actual reformed word of gotten yes in the meantime though Joseph Smith was just trying to keep mormonism alive while while he was fucking around in Kirtland trying to get his temple built the Mormons in Missouri were being shuffled from county to county. No Mormon could set foot in Jackson county anymore without being literally beaten to death and the people in Clay County who had been sympathetic towards the Mormons after the Jackson County attacks had gotten their fill as well well eventually though the Mormons founded a city of their own in Missouri called Far West which would at its peak boast. One hundred buildings and five thousand Mormons on this city was all built without Joseph Smith's guidance in any way whatsoever. No kid is a part of this the luck that he's doing this in the frontier your time and their people already organizing and forming their own cities because I part any that's why keep bringing it back to the hermetic teachings that may be Joseph Smith had at some on point because he tapped into such vein that people got inspired by Bulwer jumping at this mormonism shit to the point where their form and they're building building roads and constructing an entire city without him even there as the center without him like giving prophecies revelations in front of them or is it just that they were like well. We Got Mormon hats on its way. It's like I'm not a member of the Baltimore Ravens. I just have the Jersey on building soon as Bruce. Springsteen says you can't start a fire without a match wait. You can't start a blaze without a spark. You can't start off was was on fire. That's all I know. I think he said we can't start the show without a writer what the Mormons were doing here. It's it's Kinda like when you take a Long Road trip to Adum destination like where you just have somewhere you have a goal you have somewhere in mind and that something that they had was mormonism like mormonism brought them out there brought them out there and inspire them and it kept them going gave them something to do. I wouldn't believe in that extremely difficult time I would would just recommend so you don't have to begin start and build a cult just go to a hotel shaped like a boot and then when you get a hotel not a lot of room here but it's about the journey yeah Joe Smith would eventually end up in far west but it took a series of massive fuck ups in Ohio to get them. They're really the beginning of the end for the Mormons in Ohio came when Smith decided to start his own bank this mother had. I don't even know how he sat down with these balls. I don't has these ideas because they're so I go again. This may be the power of America borough just being inspired by spirit where you go out there and he was like we are up to our fucking brain lipids in debt and we need money he's like how do we get money. How do I get money. Make up my own money well. It's not that dumb of an idea for for the time because see although the Mormons were growing the people they were converting were poor. They just did not have money so Joseph was forced to borrow large sums of money to build the temple and keep the religion go and what is money anyway market. I mean money is just it's just paper paper and you'll you'll right to Baotou spending my money when you sign your driver's license but if you don't find your driver's license guys I am a sovereign citizen anything. I do everything win ex. I don't even read read okay well student Alex Jones. It's been great having you sociology class servers. What is it about three lines three long aw well you got an f. That is three C by eighteen thirty. Six Joseph was fifty thousand dollars in debt in eighteen thirty six money. I don't even know how much money that is now. So Joseph Smith founded the Kirtland Safety Society Bank Company and appointed Sydney edney rigged on as president while Joseph appointed himself as the lowly teller. I'm just a teller I wouldn't oh that's above my pay grade. I know this money is made out out of barley corns guy just daij work the drawer. That's all I do very smart. Though very smart after the bank was established the Mormons began printing getting their own money which was a common if short lived practice for frontier banks in the eighteen thirties before the whole print your own money scheme came crashing down because you gotta be fucking. Wells Fargo branch out there like you know you're out there on the frontier. There's a lot of commerce happening. It's happening extremely fast. You need banks but also what they showed. That money is fake right where it's all about the belief you have actually in the bills that you spent back then. It did actually means something because you would what you were supposed to be able to do. Is You would get this banking note on this bank that was safe for ten dollars and you could go to the bank you could give them ten dollars the ten dollar note and they give you ten dollars in gold or silver or whatever but the Mormons did not run their bank like that. Oh the the the ran it like a total fucking scale well. The first problem came when Ohio refused to incorporate the bank so Joseph took the bank bank notes he'd already printed and stamped the prefix anti in front of the Word Bank note say Kirtland Safety Society Anti Banking Banking Company Bank must exist an anti bank that is the only way reality is Bob and he told me you just get stamps boy honestly like whenever you want. God you crazy it was with these notes that Joe Smith paid off his debts. Now this would woulda been fine if like I said the banknotes have been backed by a safe full of gold and silver and when you went and looked in the vault you could see boxes that appeared appear to be filled with coins. Get these trunks responsible. I mean five old women do it just for them to understand understand. Just how much money we had ex mormons later said was that underneath that top layer of coins was just a bunch of sand how it's almost like so symbolic. My brain hurt yeah. That's great him by the time these rumors got out though Joseph had already circulated thirty eighty six thousand dollars in bogus no kidding yeah I mean. I feel like I did this guy. I A little bit of a run with something like to call well. Let's say creative checking in college where you just get a bunch of groceries and then you write a check. You could do that back in their thousands. You could write a check and then us kind of fade into the course that happens and they try to find it abandoned too late your two eight of the penal because then there's always journalist food. They get really mad. If you just bring a bucket of shit absolutely it's like paying your taxes with pennies and because of this because of the thirty six thousand bogus notes Joseph's house of cards fell apart less than a month after the bank first opened its doors. I mean he literally went against the Bible. Scripture of not building senior house on this end Tokyo's like the house. It's the bag. Thirteen lawsuits were brought against Joseph Smith resulting in seven arrests in four months for unpaid debts that now totaled one hundred fifty thousand dollars and then came name a revelation in fucking unbelievable. God told Joseph that it would have to be his congregants who would pay his personal debts these this. God really seems to be looking out for number. It's isn't that interesting has a friend in his God how and well a lot of the congregants were poor. Men like Parley Pratt Mitt Romney's grandfather and Sylvester Smith. They did have money they had land but for them. Even this is a bridge too far. They're like no. I am not fucking paying your debt sal but God told you to Ed. I'm scared now. What if I wash u. Haul I'm going to save that for a couple years. Then you'll see how much you like when I wash your mudhole. I'm GonNa keep it nice and dirty so Joseph did what he always did. When things got rough he left on a mission and waited for things to cool down but when he returned from his trip to Canada he found that the church had split in his absence many had stayed loyal to Josef but a good number including David Whitmer all the ver- cowdery and four Martin Harris the guys who had helped to translate the golden plates they were now following a young girl who claimed to be able to tell the future by staring into a magical blackstone so fucking fast. You've got to be so mad these people you've been working. All of a sudden new hot comic shows up show up there. You've been working so hard you've been you know you just get bumped next thing you know you're just sitting there at the bar getting hammered even. Margaret show for twenty years suddenly show up Aquafina. He knows no catch. GotTa be incredible of her. Just being like yes I can see in the future of you will be penniless so that's react little girl. That's amazing ruin poltergeist. Them nailed sailed it. The final Straw for Joseph and Ohio came when a major warrant for banking fraud finally arrived in an angry mob made up of creditors and ex. Mormons burned down the building where the bank had printed. It's money. These people. Were not fucking around. Old America was serious nude. Yeah I actually just show up. There's a part of he really misses this idea yeah. I'm actually very proud of these creditors just like you don't think we're strong but indeed we might be nurse who we will burn down. Your House is that's naked. Get Away with the old school to showed up being like at bank defrauded me burnt the fuck of that night. Joseph Smith was chased out of town by an angry mob who followed him for two hundred miles. Lyall's it's a white person honestly running low with the huge veered he is it took about this great profit cardio. Yeah he is ran and been run out of so many places his calves must be incredible absolutely stronger than forrest. GUMP's Yeah Jason for two hundred miles before they finally gave up and went home as soon after the six hundred remaining Mormons men's left Kirtland as well and the town that had once rivaled the great city of Cleveland Fell Back into obscurity. Meanwhile Joseph was as is always sidestepping and bullshit. The people of Far West believed that God had made the bank fail in order to return his Prophet to Missouri. Zuri and Joseph followed their lead yeah. That's exactly what fucking happen I I. I you guys forty chests. It's now playing that game that you don't even know what we're praying. You even think we're playing forty chess but I'm actually playing seven d sorry isn't that something upon arriving in Far West for the first this time he proclaimed the land to be the valley where Adam and Eve went after their expulsion from Eden and the Mormons had chosen the exact spot where cain had murdered table to build their city. It's kind of like if Busch Gardens were centered around the Bible. You've got Adam and Eve land. You've got CAIN and Abel Land and it was. I really think it was sir. Let me let me taste taste some of the dirt right here. Adam and Eve Shit right here and although the town was called Far West officially Joseph Joseph Smith named it a dumb owned Amman something that's works so well on a city sign. Yes all the city planners were so happy that change all the sides from far away to what Tom on the Amal's off the tug and with this the Mormons had a settlement that was solely. There's rather than a place where others had already settled but because they were in their own town didn't mean they weren't still in Missouri and the Mormons still had a reputation for being abolitionist Yankees in a fiercely pro slavery state that defended said conviction with deadly violence plus. The memory of the Mormons forcible removal from from Jackson County was still fresh in the minds of Joseph's people so Smith chose a man named Samson Everard to form a defensive military body. The Sky was very serious. He was super super into it. He loved being named the Admiral of a fucking army immediately which basically just farmers but that's the American spirit again. If you've got a gun and you got a flag you are arming yeah. You got a chance to be one but since it's still had to be done under the auspices of their religion Joseph Ziff structured the army as a series of secret fraternal societies there were the brothers of Gideon the daughters of Zion the sons of Dan and the infamous dead nights sons of Dan or such a fucking problem. The way that keeps setting off fireworks at my grandmother's House really is ridiculous. It's not even July fourth as I was reading of the subject the IT seems like it sort started informally the secret groups right where they kind of became an understanding and then they started doing the handshakes and they had their own ways of communicating but it seems to create a precedent for more secret she could groups to be a part of mormonism from now on and there would always be something like the day-night's the day-night still sort of exist and we're going to see as we track this further other into modern times. This concept keeps popping up and seems to create massive problems for mormonism except from because of the fact that it is like segmented into a secret groups that they can always go. We didn't know about it. see before all this before the Danettes when the Mormons had taken their fun little excursion down South to Missouri they'd been badly adly armed barely trained and poorly led it was more of a larger than anything else but that'll change with Samson vard. He was experienced aggressive and most first of all violent now. Joseph Smith knew that he needed plausible deniability when it came to a secret military so he pretty much gave free rein to Samson wavered what Ivar taught would eventually result in a massacre decades later. Can you imagine what Sampson could do. If you went to one comecon you could put together a force that would take on the US military see the Dan Nights in particular set the mormons apart from regular folk by claiming that the Mormons were the true. Oh House of Israel which made all the rest of us Jin teals meaning that we were lesser than and therefore fair game. I believe it's gentiles gentiles gentile. Yes the gentiles so it's kind of because that's the Jewish people call us yeah. We're gentiles. A- Joseph Smith says that he repudiated any in all talk that may have led to violence silence and he very well may have because Joseph Smith was not an inherently violent man most of the time unlike Brigham Young who will cover on the next episode but Joseph Smith that certainly enjoyed the profits of violence what it did for the Mormons both physically and spiritually but when you form a secret military Terry Society made up of justifiably paranoid people it's not gonNa take long before it blows up in your face and that's exactly what happened with the Mormon war war of eighteen thirty eight. Getting in shape isn't just about losing weight. It's about learning healthier habits and feeling better about yourself. Whether that's more stamina to keep up with your busy life finally getting into those goal jeans yours not someone else's being more in tune with your body's needs or practicing more self health care which means. 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Even though nobody on either side had even been badly hurt much less killed but when Joseph Smith heard the news the Mormon gentile divide was officially established in the public speech he made soon after if the people will let us alone we will preach the gospel and piece bath if they call them all NAS to molest us we will establish our religion by the sword we trample down enemies and make it one. Gore of blood from the rocky mountains to the Atlantic took ocean. I will be to this generation. A second Mohammed whose motto entreating for Peace was the Koran or the sawed so shall it adventure be with US Joseph Smith or the sword and then he mentioned the axis of evil which was very interesting because a lot of this came the tension because the Mormons building a big enough population that there were starting to sway local elections so there was massive anti in Pro Mormon. Shit going on back and forth that we didn't cover on this because you should just read a book read. No Man knows my history. It's fantastic seriously. Read it but there is a whole section. We're basically like Joseph Smith certain catering to specific politicians auditions to try to use the Mormon population to swing votes so people were getting real mad about it right and with that far west prepared for a siege blacksmiths hammered swords in Pike's from every available piece of steel in the Mormon Army Mobile. Oh Ho music early own the whole choir direct yes they arrived in Gallatin ready to fight but after discovering no one had died like the rumor said they instead March the justice of the peace and demand the signing of a peace agreement between the Mormons and Missourians but this just like the story that mobilized the Mormons morphed into a tale tale of gross intimidation by the time it reached the established so a circuit court judge named Austin King whose brother-in-law had been killed in Jackson County Mormon riot issued a warrant for Joseph Smith's arrest fishes fucking crazy honestly showed up with a fucking arming he actually got all these dip shits together with your swords words and all his bullets they hand made this is. There's a part of it where there is a dry layer to history where you just kind of think about this bullshit. You know you see this as factoid but the more and more I'm rolling around this like rolling surrounding my head it just imagining L. RH the ship but the ship had fucking canons there was an actual navy yeah alright very aggressive so after Joseph was arrested the Dan Nights gathered an army of three hundred and fifty men which again was magnified in rumor to actually be fifteen thousand men. This is the blackbeard affect the Missouri militia fled under the rumors and with the militia Outta town own the Mormons plundered the gentiles of gallatin burning cabins and stealing livestock before returning to far west. Mormons gone crazy in response response. The militia burned every mormon cabin outside the far west walls word of a battle crooked river reached Missouri Governor Lilburn boggs folks and Boggs was told that fifty militia members have been killed by Mormons again. It was just a rumor. All all of this is predicated on a horse shit now including Coudn't religion. It's opening self twisted into a tornado of activity. We go to war on false. Pretense never happened ever will happen. It's just a big game of telephone. It goes from one guy today because it's not one messenger. Take like riding a horse from Gallatin to independence like it's one guy riding a little bit talented guy what happened he goes and tells another guy he goes and tells another guy and by the time you get from one guy to the next it goes from five. Mormons being killed which was the actual story to fifty militia members being killed okay but the Mormons had actually burned down houses and when news of both of these incidents reached Lilburn boggs on the same day he wrote this command the only one of its kind and in United States History Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary for the public good. They're outrages are beyond all description and I heard this one story about a girl who could fit her. Whole Fish. Stop insider was I thought beyond description until I went to Paris France sold for myself and my God even now I will say it is beyond description. That's crazy governor boggs. Did you want your pants. You want to put your pants on today. We'll think about about this man I mean this is the governor of a state issuing an extermination order on a religious group. Meanwhile Smith had escaped frontier justice once more and returned to far west where siege mentality was in full force. Naturally people were tents and depressed so on one one Sunday in particular Joseph Smith challenged his men to an old fashioned wrestling mat naked and wrestle. He put his foot into Indian headdress on. He did the full every I bet you can't pin me slippery old froth eleven so cold stunners getting hit mandible claw the one by one the men tried taking Joseph but Joseph was great wrestler. He was like Abraham Lincoln Nope and not a single Mormon could throw Joseph Smith so finally Joseph stepped aside and just let the men wrestle each other and if you want a greater analogy of the world that we live in now compared to the world that was Abraham Lincoln is in the NCW Wrestling Hall of Fame Donald Trump is in the wwe hall. I see a perfect analogy for our times. We shouldn't try to let Travis Rustle us more often hear them agent drivers I would do is we'd be out or noses would be ripped off. Just to I mean this is all about inspiring our employees inspiring the people wrestling and playing in grab acid pinning them down there seeing what happens to be squirming underneath. GonNa put my. Hr Cap on Henry Shame Oh yes I experience exit but Sydney rigged on Mormonism attornal wet blanket came and chastise the men sword in hand for breaking the Sabbath. Oh come on aww come on in response. Joseph knocked the sword from Sydney's hand and said quote old man and you must go out. I will throw you down. Hey all right so we had a little hair Harrah's hero yeah man and when Sydney refused Joseph knocked off his hat ripped coat and toss them out of the ring of I not ever did not go over the top rope in by royal rumble rules. He's technically still in the match crazies. Just get everybody going out there. At some points being like Mr Smith. Are we fighting a war but today we are Aslam whereas Colin from that day forward Sydney rigged and follow Joseph Smith unconditionally until of course Joseph tried to his daughter years later but while all the boys were all having fun in Far West Missouri militia was making good on the proclamation of Lilburn box although most Bormann's had heeded the warning Joe Elsa Smith had made to retreat inside the walls of Far West. One stubborn settlement called Hans Mill refused to leave what they built so when the Missouri very militia arrived with a force of two hundred men the Mormons were slaughtered like animals the militia picked off Mormons from the tree line making no distinction between the adults and the children and after the Mormons have been mostly subdued the militia then moved in and finish off the wounded one old man was hacked to pieces with the the corn cutter one nine year old boy was dragged from his hiding place and shot in the head at point blank range after one militiaman said knits knits will make lice all in all out of the thirty eight people who called Hans malhomme seventeen had been murdered and fifteen had had been wounded and after the militia left the survivors lowered the dead into an unfinished well and headed towards Far West Joseph Smith knew that although his men were loyal and dedicated they were no match for the savagery the Missouri militia was ready to Dole out so Joseph privately told one of his men to go to the local General Enron and quote beg like a dog for peace publicly though Smith singing a different tune. This is what he told his people if they try hi to attack us we will play hell with our applecarts. Befall now men you fought like devils but now I won't use a fight like angels for Angels Can Whip Devils and for everyone we lack in number to match the mob though awed will send an angel defied along side. You won't see them kidding. imaginaire rooting you on with a phantom cries transparent. Saud's so this whole thing was about apple carts. Is that what's going on here. applecarts is old timey talk for ball centers. Ymca okay but while the bluster kept up morale the conditions sent back to Joseph Smith were to say the least harsh I the Mormons were required to surrender after which their leaders would be tried for treason second second all Mormon property would be confiscated and liquidated third all Mormons not executed for treason must lead the state immediately and forth the Mormons would be required to surrender all their weapons before they left okay. Here's a here's a counterfeit. Here's a bit of a counter pitch. What if we just let us go scot-free odd free. We'll see number three. Isn't that bad you mean to tell me. I've got to leave Missouri man no and if the Mormons did not meet these demands each and every Mormon would suffer the same fate as those who had died at Hans Mill. They're essentially threatening genocide right and while these terms were deliberated Joseph Smith Sidney Richton Parley Pratt and a few others were held as hostages now lilburn boggs wanted wanted to execute the men at eight in the morning on the Public Square of Far West but a man named General Donovan had gotten friendly with the Bormann's stepped in and saved saved their lives. He liked him yeah. He liked him like he had actually he'd gotten very friendly with them. Like grease like you know once you get to know them. They're totally fucking harmless. Listen the big thing that you could fuck whoever everyone if you marry him. I don't tell this to a lot of people because people really freak out but he seemed like a cool Guy Jonathan Irish. You know what I'm talking about because is really at this time yes the Mormons. The reason why the missourians hated the Mormon so much was because they the Mormons were anti-slavery. Even they weren't even anti-slavery lavery. It's the the missourians thought they were anti slavery. It was a rumor. Christos would've been whatever anybody wanted to be. Well the good thing that they were anti slavery. Obviously obviously anti-slavery he was against being publicly anti-slavery because of how much heated brought on them again he had a private set of circumstances and then he was but on the outside. We're trying to keep up with the Johnson. You know what man I'm just going to say if I only heard two facts anti-slavery and you could depend bunch chicks soot that magic underwear on my head buddy understand like we're on the way to the civil war right now whereabout in in this period of American history. We're about twenty years away from the civil war and that was a long longtime common. 'em Missouri was one of those battleground states where you had people that were both pro slavery a anti-slavery and if you were anti-slavery than the pro slavery people would murder well in the meantime six thousand militiamen descended on far far west in one week they shot cattle and hogs hunted down and murdered elders and tie-down Mormon men and women alike in the schoolhouse. Oh House and raped them and at the end of it the Missourians told the Mormons that the Mormons were the real aggressors but that's only because that false story was backed up by none other than Samson a vard hoping to save his own skin Samson turncoat immediately and testified that Joseph Smith had set up his own military complete with a secretary of war which could be seen as a bit of light treason all I love a nice light dry treason and yes the point of the Army Sampson said was for Joseph Smith to establish a personal kingdom within the borders of America which would no doubt result in a quick hanging for Joseph Joseph Smith. If it could be proven it wasn't entirely wrong not entirely however no one could testify that Joseph Smith had been any of the battles nor could they prove that he ordered the attacks nor could they proved definitively that the Dan nights even existed outside of Samson Avon's testimony. Luckily for Justice Smith nobody had written anything down yet no he just because he kind of had a plan for that because he talked about the verbal testimony a stony and how important it was to just remember the things I say and spread it via story because then and you really get the gist of it now. You don't want to write it down. Two words are just again lines on paper. What is what is the Oh but an asshole known yeah yeah that's true and it is interesting because if you do it like that then everyone can kind of interpret it in their own mind and make it fit whatever they believe as opposed to having a solidified belief system that they could argue against but just of Smith kept very intense diaries which you'll find out decades decades later that all of this was transcribed obviously sleep twisted from an unreliable narrators point of view where he is the only person who can talk Jesus Christ and God himself who's the same person because who it was also gigantic planet furthermore the Hans Male massacre was now national news which turned the tide of public opinion towards the Mormons on and on it went until finally Mormon leaders bribed a guard with Whiskey to facilitate their escape very interesting. I are we talking about the EPSTEINS suicide again whenever they were sleepy. Guards were indeed yeah. That's exactly what happened here. The guard drank himself into a deep sleep. Keep it was just pretty much. Here's your whiskeys all right. I'm just going to go to some falsely. Put in Y'all get out of here. The Scooby Dude there while he was asleep. Joseph Smith and the other other leaders skittered away and left Missouri forever they along with eight thousand other Mormons fled to a settlement in Illinois established by Brigham Young Unnamed Nabu. Now remember that number think about that Shit. We're already at eight thousand. Mormons the have built this is. It's GONNA become a big Old City and new if I've never been there. I'm really really excited. I Google Street map debt and I walked through the streets of Navajo and it is fucking weird. So you mean to tell me mormonism. The religion that outlaws alcohol would not be around today without whiskey yeah okay now. The first you are in Nevada was beset by disease and death but after the Mormons established themselves they built a city that at its peak had two hundred fifty buildings livings and over fifteen thousand Mormons and never knew comes from a bastardized version of the Hebrew word for I believe heaven beautiful beautiful default and again. He has these weird like her. He has these very strange like Hebrew lessons that he's been taking. He's been obsessed with religious studies at at this point the more of the stuff because they get filtered in where he he's looking at the Kabbalah. He is doing something with the Kabbalah where he's starting to understand. I was making this shit up as I go. I was just kind of flying off the dome with these rules but I'm also weirdly channeling thousands of years of religious thought in the back ground of this and the fucking coding of my teachings I mean Justice Smith I mean could very well been plugged into something that you could call the collective unconscious like this guy he was plugged into these ancient sort of rituals these ancient religions but he was also specifically plugged in into America and what Americans Americans wanted and eventually what the entire world wanted at least the Western world. So where are they off to now. They are off to Illinois. My friend do ooh dubbed bears and with this the Mormons thought that maybe they'd found a permanent settlement and for a while they had I mean at one point right like it was as far as the major city in Illinois at one point it was between Nabu and Chicago it was going to be one of the two I will say. Heaven is apparently extremely colts because that is a horrible place to be during the winter and as a result the Mormons settled in enough for Joseph Smith to finally expand end mormonism into the fully ritualistic religion that it is today see well. Smith was in prison in Missouri. He had time to reflect upon the sorts of men then who would come into his service. Samson Ivar had proved to be a cowardly traitor. Sydney Richton had lost his mind in the prison cell with Joseph and three of his closest followers had abandoned him for a teenager with a magic fucking rock friends like these. I everybody loves militia Joan Heart and this is starter. Yeah maybe so even though the violence perpetrated against them found the Mormons together Joseph needed something to bind his people to mormonism so he introduced a highly elaborate set of temple rituals based on existing Masonic Rites he you say even just just based them on or it's almost like he completely rip them all stolen. Yes yes and but there's something about the the way these rituals work. I looked a little bit into the history of the freemason rituals and there's not a lot of does not a lot of concrete information about when they started the first time they recorded was in the sixteen hundreds hundreds in Scotland and so this has been around for a while but they obviously there is the kind of fabled beginnings that happened with the original stonecutters like in Fucking Solomon's Day and then that's where these things came about but it's interesting to see there's something about the actual movements that they will learn that it's about about the way the brain works with symbolism and away the human monkey reacts to it's about Physical Ization of a belief belief that embeds it deep inside and also everybody's on this doing the super secret embarrassing thing that also is a secret keeping mechanism that keeps all of us in the same club club so he based it on the masonic rituals very similar to vanilla ice basing his ice ice baby hook on under pressure so it's not stealing it's based upon. 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D. to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain digital uh-huh now the roots of Mormon ritual had already taken hold years before their arrival in Nauvoo as the ritualistic washing of the feet and the anointing of believers with oil had been a big part of Mormon services since about eighteen thirty but in eighteen forty two Joseph Smith Smith discovered freemasonry through various members of the Mormon Church who had entered the faith as established freemasons and the founding of a Masonic Lodge in Abu that same same year sealed the deal seen freemasonry Joseph Smith once again found a ready made system that he could steal and adapt for his own purposes. He reasoned the what worked for the masons for centuries would no doubt work for the Mormons and in this he was absolutely correct. It's just so it's so mysterious its doors and then again. It's like were L. Rh conceived of Zeno and all that kind of shit of the idea of being like now you're going to see behind the veil on you're going to see what story all real mumbled to make me look like a piano keys has dropped her for Clinton and dropped off a cliff in looney tunes yeah but the hits this power. It's this power connects something deep deep down and some of the handshakes people eventually full love and shakes although the Mormons have a large variety of rituals the most important one is known as the endowment endowment specifically. The endowment is an adult initiation rituals that is supposed to prepare Mormons for their place among the exalted in the afterlife life or to become gods themselves 'cause our God was a our creator. God was started as dude this dude exalted himself of using ancient rituals and we'd be shoot past human life into this creator. God status in order to work for the big up top God right all all of this weird hermetic idea of the the layers of God and so his job is he basically creates earth and all this Kinda Shit but then he translated himself back into human form to Adam and eve and arrived back on earth and then inspired again. God exalted again came back went back to the top came back as Jesus again. It is all in this video. If you watch the actual these the ritual they play a forty five minute long video that explains this shit and it is dry. It's sounds like you had a busy life. Yeah yeah well. In this ritual Joseph Smith combine the New Testament rights such as anointing foot washing and bathing with complicated freemason initiation rituals not coincidentally the first endowment ceremonies. He's began about two months after Smith became a first degree mason and the entire ceremony as it was done for about one hundred fifty years took about two two hours and it is far too long and complicated to completely cover from end to end now. We're going to tickle your foot. We can however never give some of the broad strokes and juicy bits sounds like a London fish restaurant broad strokes place calls calls you slug and lettuce chain restaurant called slug and lettuce all over the Europe and I just can't eat there will basically the endowment. Alma has two parts the inititally segment and the ritual drama segment the initial Tori segment has evolved quite a bit since the time of Joseph Smith originally originally it began with a fully nude head to toe bathing of the initiate that was supposed to wash them clean of the blood incense of of their generation. Is it true that might balls or dirtier. They might penis yeah there is it's where the devils are. The devils live somewhere in. I and Mr Goldman called the Gooch who Clayton Nice no one eight. Oh you're you're a grown org. Show or just like your father. This is a horrible day to be your son for about the first eighty years this was done totally nude but starting in nineteen twenty. They allowed the initiate to wear a ritual poncho which they called a shield okay. Who Do you think did this. I was one one of the fathers just be like hey I don't WanNa fucking touch my disgusting kids polls get go. I love you son. fucking Poncho on that God Damn Dog Shit Pancho on him. Could you then in two thousand five. They changed it so one began the ceremony with their temple garment and now they only wash the head. Whoa come on what are they? Don't do anything fun anymore. I almost respect more when they went all in speaking of the temple garment at brings us to the famed magical underwear. I've been waiting for the magical underwear. It's finally appeared. Originally the temple garment as it's called was a shirt containing no metal that was given to the initiate following the washing and that shirt was then hidden after the ceremony to hide it from quote destroying angels pretty sticky a like moths yes pretty soon though the temple simple garment evolved into a utilitarian suit of long underwear that the initiate was commanded to wear constantly as a protection against evil which gave the Mormons Away to control their followers lives on a very basic and constant level. I like the way you put that because that's that's really the truth because then you have have it puts. The physical is is the secret yeah it physical is is the bond and the commitment you've made to the Mormon Church because no matter where you go okay I mean it can't be that comfortable to set a long underwear especially when it's fucking hot especially when you're on your mission you're on a weird new city and you're doing all this bullshit in the wintertime. It's fantastic stick. I used to have like three sets of more magical underwear that got me through many winters in New York City but you wear three shirts at a time yeah. I'm wearing three shirts right now. Yeah it's taught here now. I'm actually wearing t-shirts actually fucking sweating my balls off right right right well. I can wash Lewis for you. If you want to convert the only magic underwear that I'll ever believe in is Michael Cool Jordan's jockey underwear member that when he was supposed to jockey right now I believe so he was always wearing that under on TV voted the loom. It was furtive aluminum. Yeah I think oh I don't even know we're going to get a lot of emails. You're about to throw me UNDIES AD following the dawning of the underwear. Mormons were then required to take a long series of oaths. The first oath was the law of obedience in which women swore to will base their husbands and men swore to obey God convenient. Isn't that something this was the Mormons and around way to later guarantee not that their wives would go along with whatever polygamous relations might come about because the men were only obeying the dictates of God when they married and in had sex with other women. It's not maybe God I want to see. Someone tried to explain this to their wife. Now were they get back from Las Vegas and he is covered in herpes Nezar Nezar Dizzy. These are called angels. Kissing a didn't lose money tie that something then remember that when we said Oh we're in love. We don't have to send a pre-nup. You're going to regret. Here's another life. You don't even need an interestingly although oh establishment mormons renounced polygamy long ago again saying God changes nine to switch to this day when a woman gets the divorce in a Mormon church she is required to undergo a ritual in which she cancels her previous marriage and I bet you that must be super simple simple easy going. Oh yeah chance old however men are required to do no such thing which means by Mormon belief that a man who marries multiple times due to either divorce or the death of their spouse will have multiple wives waiting in the celestial lest your kingdom when he dies bound by oath to do his bidding for all eternity. It almost seems like Mormon Heaven is only heaven for men and kind of Hell Hell for women interesting kissel weird. It seems like you're right exactly correct. It's funny how they keep just taking in these basic beliefs yeah they can reform and they do reform now. They're trying. They're trying to modernize. He's trying to keep their religion alive but sometimes they do it. They just take the secret lessons and they bury it a fucking foot deeper and each time it gets deeper deeper and it just gets deeper deeper deeper but every single time as it gets it becomes even more ingrained into the actual kind of like reptile brain of the people living because you don't even know that you're still exercising and living the initial wishes of Joseph Smith even though you're being told we're getting modernized. Now all of this. That's all in the past. Has All the goofy shit you're still doing. You're still practicing the the old ideas they're just hidden but perhaps the most infamous of the oath that were a part of this ritual until nineteen ninety were the penalty not oaths uh-huh taken directly from masonic ritual. The participant is given a Mormon name of the ironic priesthood in his sworn to keep Mormon secrets under threat threat of penalty and that penalty was death well. That's a little strict or could we just have maybe like three slaps on the risks are okay. Let's check yeah. I could do a thing called. Half death-knell fucking can't man the oath was sealed when the initiate place their thumb under their left ear and quickly drew it across their throat then dropped their hand their side while reciting this we we covenant promise that we will not reveal any secrets of this the first token of the ironic priesthood should we do so we agree that all throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots. I thought you were GONNA say they had to say rast in the the undertaker after that they took an oath to obey the Law Gospel which bans quote light mindedness loud laughter evil speaking the Lord's anointed the taking of the name of God in vain and every other unholy and impure practice. They all sound like rules made by someone who has hung over. I I don't want to be the oldest sound like someone who has very audible sensitivity but you wouldn't get to the dominant ritual. They added already. Be Win in over your records. You have to be the purest of pure Mormon. That truly is a believer of this shit. The only reason why I got to see the endowment ritual was because it whoever filmed it must have gone so deep undercover because you have to be a good boy for years now. You have to really walk the walk tightly like you. It's like being on a Mata Hari Yeah Mormon temples. You can't just go into a Mormon temple like not even more Mormons can just go into a Mormon temple when I walked by the Mormon Temple in Utah. They actively rejected me so yes. I believe that well after that oath they're given the robes of the ironic priesthood and our may take a second penalty oath which says that they are to have their heart ripped from their chest and eaten by birds should they divulge secrets the metal yeah and on and on it goes through the robes of the milk is a deck priesthood the law of chastity and two more penalty oaths that say Komo Norman divulges secrets their body should be cut asunder in the midst and older bowels gush out turn as they did this. They moved from one room to the next in the temple which echoed the masonic practice of moving up in degrees except Joseph called it progressing from grace to grace and the masonic parallels don't end. They're both initiation rituals feature the initiate being an underwear both give the initiates new names and both feature and oath in which the throat is cut and the tongue is torn out should secrets be divulged all of which all of which are. Colt techniques putting you in a specific thing to wear put you in a specific mental mental state giving you a new name literally takes Higgs our old identity and gets rid of it but also this is the secret name like this isn't your new name is a name that you're supposed to keep in remember forever versus. This isn't on your name tag. If you have a job at McDonalds you're not like sees or the eighth you could. If your name is like nurse you can go back and be like yeah. Mormon name is Aaron. I'm just GonNa okay but this whole ritual you're supposed to do again once you reach the celestial doors of Heaven when you die. You're going to do this ritual again that it's going to allow you to then move to the next level. Which is the you get? Your Planet Man. I just that is is not my idea of heaven. My idea of heaven is just like a big old. Caesar's Palace and I win every time I play the slots every Black Jack every time I play blackjack at the Black Jack Sir Sir. I have a twilight zone episode. You need to watch because that man discovered that that Heaven soon became a hell yeah dude because you start becoming Atlantic city aunt ben well. It wouldn't be unfair to say that the Mormon endowment ritual is damn near the exact same as the freemason initiate ritual except for a few changes in wording wording right down to the five points of fellowship and this freemason ritual within a ritual the candidate and the master touch each other on five points. It's inside of right foot to inside of right-foot right knee too right knee breast to breast left toback and mouth to ear what Kinda in a juggle. Oh Festival. Is this do it market. I think we can try to stand up and do it all right so the boys are standing up now. They're going to attempt to do it. This is extremely really awkward because Marcus is a stick and Henry is an egg sir. Okay they have done it. They are and and that is very uncomfortable. Okay has been completed so I do believe you. Guys are one step closer to heaven. Are you love being A. US Word Betty loves me. Oh very nice secret well now. Let's call it a sweaty snake of brother. That was very interesting not easy to do. I wonder how they even came up with such a bizarre collaboration. You should see all the handshakes very fun. I've studied the handshakes of many different cultures and I just stick with the fist-bump. You've studied the handshakes of many different cultures. I don't know how to do Hinch tube-like cool handshakes because I it's makes me very uncomfortable. Part of the ritual that is important is the veil so at the very end you're supposed Sir approach this giant curtain where you literally open it up and it's about the passing through is incredibly important. Okay because what the your uh-huh someone acts like God and one side of the curtain you do the handshakes through the curtain at God and again. You'RE GONNA repeat this when you die and then all of a sudden you see a large urge erect Gloria Ward Interesting Joseph fully admitted to stealing from the freemasons but he spun it by saying that the masonic ritual was a corruption of the ancient ritual of Solomon and then Smith he was just restoring it to the true he break endowment endowment but the initiation is only the half of it. The second half was the ritual drama in this church leaders reenact the creation of earth earth and the fall of Adam in a fun little play that takes place in a series of rooms were each scene is depicted in the early days. Joseph Smith played God his brother Hiram was Christ George Miller was the Holy Ghost and WWAFL pts crawled around on his stomach hitting playing the serpent in the garden of Eden. Hey Joe would have all played stake in the play. No W I don't I don't want you to do that would be silly or dodgers phoned to be a part of the special initial the special dowman ritual. Dell right you do it you the the best damn snake. I've ever seed and once the drama reached the point where Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden. The actors would don tiny robes that were exact replicas of masonic aprons except the robes were painted with little green fig leaves then the initiate would be taught all the necessary secret handshakes passwords in hand signals before he was given his secret name which was inevitably taken from either the New Testament or more likely the book of Mormon and remember this was not just some and wacky. Shit that the Mormons did in Abu in the early days. This ceremony was performed exactly as we just described it along with a whole lot of other other ancillary shit until nineteen ninety. Mitt Romney performed this ritual amen. Honestly it's coolest thing. I've ever heard that he's ever done again. I would like to see him. Try to pull this stuff. Maybe Mitt Romney was snake. I am a snake hiss you what w used to do it a lot better. Just be like like make the actual his sal. You don't say his met. My only concern is that I am. I am not a snake bit. You're acting didn't like a snake. You see someone can be something that they are. Not that is trickery. It's it's wait a second so I could see as something that I don't mean. Even though I guess I'm getting into politics nailed it nailed it but in the Common Mormon practice of changing with the times the church removed the penalties in nineteen ninety along with a lot of the masonic elements afterward of their creepy rituals started getting now because I think the Mormon started thinking like we're going to need to get into politics here pretty soon. We're GONNA need some people in power. We can't be doing the penalty whole oats anymore anymore. We can't be because it really. I mean it's kind of what people thought about Mitt. Romney was kind of the same ship people thought about John F. Kennedy is he going to be loyal to the United States Rohr to the pope yes John. JFK was the only Catholic president you remember of a fucking call. Mormonism probably cost him the election no yeah yeah as it should have well speaking of creepy. The endowment ritual is not even close to the only Mormon ritual still perform to this day one that many of you may you have heard of is the infamous baptism of the dead originally this right was meant to bring dead family members like parents and grandparents into the faith if they happen to die before they heard the good word of Joseph Smith like say you get into mormonism. You think this is fucking fantastic with your parents. Your grandparents are dead. What's GonNa Happen to them. You know what we can do. The baptism of the dead or ritual supposed to do is send a little message to the baptized spirit in the after light send a little note wrote and wherever that spirit may be this message gives them the choice as to whether they want to be a post mortem Mormon or not so I'm sitting up there in my heaven in plain my slot machines and every single time and all of a sudden I get whisked away to Mormon heaven just up to sit there and have horrible horrible time only gives you the choice choice. The answer is no no you're going to a nice young man will show up like Mister Kessler. You seem to be you've been digging the Lord's name in vain quite a bit of that slot machines yeah because I celebrate say God damn in another win your drink a Lotta coffee and I seem to notice there is about seven bud light lines in front of you yeah. Would you want you know what I'm going to skip it. I'm GONNA leave yeah. Let's get the hell out of here but more recently the Mormons expanded ended this ritual from ancestors to include celebrities and historical figures. Can't you can't do that. You Can Eddie you. Can't you can and the Dead Oh God in two thousand seventeen a researcher discovered that the Mormons Baptized Humphrey bogart and Marilyn Monroe in row as well as the ancestors of Kim Kardashian trump pence Biden Hillary Clinton and Steven Spielberg to no no you don't get those are ours. Although you can have a couple of we'll take Spielberg. King is about four books that are about early short stories the about how the afterlife is filled with classic rock is at some point they so jealous of Heaven are heaven bead having like Prince Jefri Jeffrey Epstein because they really want to know what you're talking about without a through a Hail Mary but they get so jealous of fun happen happen. They wanted to get some people over and they're having because think about how cool I'm lonely. Planet would be just all grumpy him sucking on Scotch Scotch and talk about it's bad I you can't smack actresses on the budget anymore. Yeah exactly I'm sure he has some interesting to racial as well as a matter of fact he might agree with the Mormons on on that so you might enjoy it up there. Well there have also been attempts to Mormon is both Charles Manson and Stephen Paddock but as of two thousand seventeen eighteen both of those people were roundly rejected by church leaders because their spirits were deemed quote not ready but what really pissed people off when the Mormons posthumously baptized hundreds of thousands of Holocaust victims in the nineties. Oh my God in the nineties did this however the Church defended the move saying the ritual only gave spirits the choice to be Mormons conveniently forgetting the long history. The Jews have being forced through violence and torture to convert to Christianity okay. This is what I'm going to call in unforced error her like why do this. I don't know why they wanted to do it. I guess they just wanted has many Mormons as possible. It's something fun to do but it's also it's. It's a fun ritual for the kids. It's because it buying hold on what no seriously it binds the kids to the religion because they I think they baptized something like one hundred and fifty thousand Holocaust victims they definitely baptized and frank but for every single one of those baptized. You have to have kids. You have to have standards. You have to have proxies so this is a ritual for them to do. It's like a church activity today. We're going to baptize ten. Holocaust victims me and you can do a lot with macaroni to make macaroni cross did the hand Turkeys in the Macarena. All we do fucking confirmation camp but these kids get shipped out to go to the temples and I think you're right. I guests also partially because the temple is a place where you go and you are truly because of the grin dear of the architecture. You're supposed to feel like you are actually surely in God's House and so you're getting them. It's normalizing. It's like you're getting used to the temple. What y'all so you get to go to the temple again. You get to do the endowment dominate ceremony again because for a lot of Mormons for a lot of Mormons the endowment ceremony is the most beautiful most spiritual experience of their lives. It's fantastic and when you do the bathroom as the dead you get to do it again. Okay now. After Joseph Smith established these rituals he started getting a little more selfish and a little more worldly with his revelations in January of eighteen forty. One Joseph told his people that God had commanded the Mormons to build a hotel flip that property he technically was probably listening to I think was it is it. Suzanne powder rap Suzanne powder. Yes and strangely enough. God Got Pretty detailed with the business side of things as far as how much Joseph Smith should receive profit wise this this is his actual revelation and they shall not receive less than fifty dollars for a share of stock in that house and they shall be permitted to receive fifteen eighteen thousand dollars from any one man for stock in that house but they shall not be permitted to receive over fifteen thousand dollars from any one man I and if they do appropriate any portion of that stock anywhere else only in that house without the consent of called up and do not repay four fold for the Stop for which they appropriated anywhere else only in that house they shouted the occurs and shelby moved out of their place say if the Lord God for I the Lord Amgad Not and cannot be mocked in any of these things and there shall be. I'll watch slight. I love that and lotion in every room. I be the better be. I know it's not happening as much as it used to. I got I got a wife. Correction Natalie listened to the last side stories and she has to push back. She says she has is used the lotion in the bathrooms for actual purposes not just US masturbating good it has it has yes people do actually that is not. Do you think I think that's actually what it is our. It's not fair. It's not there for men to masturbate. That's all I've ever seen anybody. Use It for anyone. Bathe themselves and Lotion Bay themselves people use Lotion to moisturizer skinner stand with the theoretical point is motion does not specifically they don't have entire owls just for masturbation. AIDS push back a little bit on that of course that revelation also made sure that Joseph had a suite of rooms all to himself forever and always isn't that fun. The Prophet Needs Ah fucking space. He needs to sit. He needs to think he needs to get the revelations. He needs to fucking every room that takes the put seven wives in there so we gave himself the penthouse suite yes yes he did but Joseph was not just busying himself with Muendane creature comforts he was also sending missionaries not west to the frontier but east just to Europe. They're the Mormons found thousands of willing converts right here in England and if you're wondering how just know that the urban and living situation in what is now the UK was not exactly what you'd call optimal. I'm just GonNa say this and I don't WanNa be rude to any of the European people but I'm I'm assuming they got over here. In the European is just like you mean to tell me you can wash my balls because my balls have not been washed in thirty five years view if I could. I do this and you wash my pecker and my boss alright. It's weird. You'd even do an English accent. What is an English accent sound like new it. I'll have a coffee veep okay. Hello Kissel added engine Kissel Benjamin Kissel. I'll have a coffee I know my only impression it will always be there or what about calling me now going now well since it was such a festering hellhole over here at least in all the urban centers which we definitely found out in our tour of Edinburgh we found out just how how fucking awful it was to live in the cities of the UK at the time the idea that you could go to America and live in a nice town by the river and Illinois Illinois that was just about the best fucking deal. You're going to get all day markets and Henry informed me of their tour and Edinburgh and I just have to say do do some research on that seems I was living hell yeah and I really was surprised to hear about it. So English convert started coming over the Atlantic by the thousands interestingly though the only place in in England that the Mormons couldn't gain traction was right here in London from the way the Mormon missionaries wrote not a single person was converted in this city while the rest of the country provided the Mormons with eight thousand new converts by eighteen forty four is about two or three years. Okay it's almost it's like they're from a huge city and they could smell bullshit. Models and things were going pretty damn good nabus well while all this was happening in in fact this could be described as the good times for the Mormon Religion During Joseph Smith Lifetime see Illinois was nowhere near as harsh as Missouri so now. Vu was granted a the town charter. Meanwhile Joe Smith was becoming a national character. The Hans Mill massacre had kind of propelled into the spotlight and the day today wacky goings John the Mormon cult became a favorite subject and papers like the New York Tatler and the Boston be love. Why don't we have those names in the Tatler. Be What was the other one. The militia the bill battle-axe there was another one that was just called the Wasp and their biggest and their biggest writer was just this named vortex metal sounds like leather club. They'd sounds like a hacker zine. Y- yeah most people looked at the Mormons with good humor especially like I said after what happened in Missouri the editor for The New York Herald who followed hold the Mormons as closely as we used to follow Lord Rial wrote this yes I'm golden every sector of religion and way fastball to all from Pope of Rome Joe Smith. All we ask in return for our reports is good cluelessly bench all location when the end of the world gums and the everlasting bonfire begins. I Love Them. Yeah just a Nice Little Fun Lincoln up. They were just fun. Characters and there was plenty of goofiness for these papers to cover one. Smith got more attention people started pulling pranks the men and cut six copper plates in their buddies fill those plates with fanciful writing like all kinds of hieroglyphics and Hebrew and Greek all kinds of shit and then they used acid to corrode metal to make it look old them they buried the sheets near a native American burial ground and spread the word around new that one of the men had dreamed of buried treasure three nights in a row and that he'd appreciate help from such season treasure hunters as the Mormons. This is what people did before. They were addicted to young sheldon. I go and make your own fun. Yeah no I the Mormons were skeptical because this is about the fourth or Fifth Major Prank Inc but their suspicion vanished the moment they saw this seemingly authentic plates for themselves and they begged for permission to take the plates to Joseph Smith. Oh my God you can just imagine him looking at this shit just like they don't think I don't know this fucking skin. You know what I'm saying like all right. Bring me the look at it. It's funny how how you can even look at these plates the plates I had made your brain could be the Joseph Smith knew this was a hoax or it could be see that word was reaching Joseph that the Rosetta stone had finally been deciphered meaning the days of reformed Egyptian. We're getting pretty fucking. Short did either way. Joseph went no further than just placating his people because he couldn't say like fucking Moron doing bringing music for I think I'm doing. This is old school right channeling pulling the hermetic old. Let me look at this all right. Look at paragraph of it. Oh this is just this is just a TV guide died justice said he translated just a portion and said that the plates were merely the history of the person buried in that mount he was a descendant of of ham which he's like this is interesting but it is not a discovery on par with the mummies that inspired the book of Abraham but still even though people liked liked Joseph Smith negative press tended to stick one person who no doubt had heard Samson ivars testimony accused Joseph of sanctioning theft theft against his neighbors and practice Joseph supposedly called milking the gentiles her that but it seemed seemed like Joseph preferred to read the positive stories which is all well and good but after a while Joseph started to believe the hype emboldened by the positivity Joseph Smith and the Mormons dove into polygamy muff deep whoa now polygamy began in earnest with Mitt Romney's. He's grandfather parley Pratt in eighteen forty but only in a spiritual sense see Pratt's first wife had died and Pratt had since remarried but he was worried read about what would happen when he went to heaven and both wives were there waiting like what if one time on an anniversary they are told them to meet me at the same restaurant for a date told one at seven near the seven thirty in the not have to wear a mustache with one date and then run into the bathroom change and come to the other day in a sort of Mrs doubtfire set of so he was worried about his wives being catty heaven just what was going to happen like what was the what's going to happen. How can I be loyal to both wives while in heaven. What's going to happen there? How is God going to look upon this. Essentially that was more what it was about. It's like how is God going. Look upon me having two wives in heaven. How does that work on the planet Joseph. How's that work. Joseph assured parlay that God allowed for multiple marriages asper his reading of exodus and that they would all live happily ever after for all eternity on their own planet near Co Lob but this seemingly only innocent proclamation designed to comfort his friend must've seemed like a fucking lightning bolt of an idea to the Horny Joseph Smith Joseph never dared pre polygamy out in the open because he knew that if the Mormons were officially polygamous the fledgling religion would never survive so Joseph took aside way street towards supporting the practice by publishing a pamphlet by a Non Mormon named Edney h Jacob who defended polygamy as has a solution to marital incompatibility. That's basically what it said. This whole document is all about how you got to get a new one. You gotTa dumpy husband sorry. That's how it goes. There's some people that say that Jacob Might Be Joseph Smith under a pseudonym. Maybe the the the I mean I wouldn't put it past him because he really loves playing mind games and he was very very good at it but we we don't know for sure well on on the back of the pamphlet it said publisher J Smith the gist of the pamphlet was that for a Christian divorce wasn't an option because nobody in a Bible ever got divorced but a knee wrote some men were nonetheless cursed with unpleasant wives whom they no longer loved and sent sex without without love is a sin attorney argued that having sex with a spouse didn't love was a sin as well and he even had a name for it. He called it. Ah Foreign Accounting in the wife my goodness do not search that on porn hub with a solution didn't fornicated in the wife. A new wrote was to just stop fucking wife. You hated and Mary again while still forcing everybody to live in the same the home and that's how you exalt the Lord and find happiness isn't that just broke up the marriage between Maria Shriver and Arnold Schwarzenegger. I'm pretty certain that was that was called. Fornicated in the May not good now. The pamphlet was published in eighteen forty two but Joseph Smith had already begun what he called plural marriage almost a year before when the thirty six year old Joseph Smith Mary Twenty six-year-old Louisa Beaman by the time the pamphlet was published though Smith had already not married Lucinda Harris Press India Buell Zina Huntington Jacobs. Mary rollins Lightner Patty Sessions Clarisa Hancock Sally Gully Nancy Nancy Hyde and a woman only known as Mrs Durfee which was Robin Williams so he he got. He got a bevy right away any many women. Oh my goodness the oldest of Joseph's wives was fifty nine. The youngest fifteen fifteen he also married five pairs of sisters and in one case married both a mother and a daughter but what really got him in trouble was was when he married other men's wives without the husbands knowing that Joseph was doing it. Oh they didn't like that well. It was very scary. Your pastor the profit you'd you'd come on this one story of a one due to came home to find his wife and Joe Smith having dinner or he's just like let me tell you about this. New Arrangement Khedive invented. It's called sitting on a tripod by God now. Some Mormons claim to this day that all joses marriages were entirely Harley spiritual with consummation left to the eternal state as they put it yeah ooh. Oh Yeah I'm a betting man and that's what I would put my my money on but quite a few sworn statements from Joseph's wives prove that Smith did not wait for death to fuck what I can't believe it it with the thing was a lot of Mormons didn't like the idea of plural marriage most early. Mormons thought this fucking weird and a really bad idea in in fact Joseph Smith's own brother Don Carlos was quoted as saying no breach him process spiritual wife rate. We'll go away. Roy Moore derivatives my brother you also in fact even Brigham Young who eventually had well over fifty wives had to be cajoled old into participate. It seems going come on bring Nah. I don't think I do don't. I don't know if I know it took years for Joseph to convince Brigham Young. This was a good idea and Brigham finally agreed at least the story goes the Brigham finally agreed read while he and Joseph were watching a funeral procession in Brigham told Joseph that he would rather be in that fucking coffin than be a polygamist but he would do it if God and Joseph commanded interesting face. That's what the story is about. Once Brigham said yes he went all aw and you think somebody was hesitant. Whenever you have like one extra extra reservations a couple of reservations perhaps APPs fifty six or fifty seven which wanted it. It's fifty six or fifty seven wives Brigham young eventually had he went all in a surprisingly quite a few mormon women took to plural marriage as well because plural marriage did not bind a woman specifically to one man that meant that while one man was off on missionary work the church widow as they were called could still have a warm bed with her other husband and this was under the Church Klaus Fuck Party the very I wonder how sexual these relationships were I think obviously they were having sex for procreation but it did seem like they do kind of mention. The hint data at this was also about sex for pleasure. This was about like keeping people satisfied and keeping them within the religion yeah it was it was a sex was exalting. God You you know it was because it was believed that God was a man and if God was a man that meant that God had all the same urges as a man therefore it. It must be true that God likes to fuck because men like to fuck look at the rock band poison matching if Jeff Goldblum was God they just happen to know that he needed to marry as many as as he was around is humanly possible an handpick his several wives from his jazz show that he doesn't Los Angeles question. Jeff Goldblum is what this also meant that any woman who left her husband to join mormonism could remarry three without a divorce without worrying about the spiritual implications of such an action but one woman who never took to polygamy was Emma Uh Smith Yeah Man. It's hard to share. It's hard to share the prophet. That's your fucking husband. That's fucking. That's the number one guy that was supposed to be. You're paying your clan and you're supposed to be there one for each other. I already backed up through all of this fucking horror shed. We've already fought a war now. You're have sex with a fifteen year olds and remember Emma Smith was she's about the only one there who knew Joseph Smith before the golden plates and at this point she is the only one who new Joseph Smith before even like the founding of mormonism because everyone else who would translate to the golden plates had all either been excommunicated for talking shit about Joseph or had just left on their own so emma has a completely different idea of who Joseph's methods than anybody else in this cult despite the fact that now years being seen a netflix television producer one of the very cute things about the relationship between Barack and Michelle Obama is that Michelle would look Iraq sometimes like I know you're that Nerdy Kid. I met in college going crazy for you now but like she kept him down and I thought that was very cute. She didn't keep him down. She kept him grounded grounded. Exactly well. M absolutely absolutely loathed the idea of polygamy and in fact Joseph Smith kept many of his plural marriages a secret from his wife before he properly convinced convinced her that this had been God's will all along it wasn't until eighteen forty three the emma finally accepted polygamy and even then she said head that she would only sign off on a new marriage if she herself chose the women which became a kind of Mormon tradition afterwards now I saw this is the preamble to one was mormon German girls videos. I saw the wife just picks. It seems to be always gets. The girl was in pigtails lost or looking for a babysitting. It is interesting. How in your research and Marcus research like sometimes we're goes into different directions. Marcus does historical fact. I do cultural implications but when Ima did finally choose to women for Joseph turned out Joseph had already married sees him better than he knew himself. Who is when you look at you and you laugh together and you say you are the one you get me but to quote save family trouble. Everyone just went through the motions and had another ceremony without without telling Emma that they'd already done the ceremony. Two months earlier really is running Improv. Everybody was just rolling with the Harold doing like the old surprised is Emma looking at the girl girl looking at Joseph. No midnight and let's just get married. The how many times did Joseph have the sentence go through his head. How the Fuck Am I. GonNa get Seventy Majete. If there are times the promise it now he's really starting to believe in himself before even through the Mormon wars. I think that he woke up every like fuck. Fuck County it. Can it kill me now but now I think he's been on the money so many times that he is starting to really believe. I have tapped into something I i. They might be the prophet well. He's a celebrity now. He is a national celebrity at this point. He is definitely starting to believe his own bullshit otherwise he would not have had the courage to go as far far with Mormonism as he actually did one late night set change. Some of our friends committee must have discovered what had happened with with the wives that she chose eventually because those wives were run out of new by Emma herself just a few months after the second ceremony Armonia uh-huh and seems like Emma's reticence was a bit of a strain on Joseph Smith Yeah. It's a fucking bummer so to help with the load. Joseph's brother Hiram told Joseph that he could convince Emma that polygamy was good enright is Joseph did have a revelation about polygamy but he never written it down because evidence removed plausible deniability see Joseph had told associates that an angel had appeared to him three times between in eighteen thirty four and eighteen forty two before Joseph finally agreed to become a polygamist but Hiram was convinced that all Joseph had to do to convince Emma Ma was to write down what the angels had said clearly then m would be convinced because his hiring formula. You're not bringing it right. You got frame it really spell it out and then of course Amazon GonNa see she's GonNa realize it makes sense and she's getting getting we now only she's. GonNa get it going to be super into. Iram sure you do sound like you have the name of someone who wets himself every day at noon. Convince your your wife to do a threesome. No pro every woman was doing no. I know you're married. I'm single and like I'm not dating anybody like I'm fucking alone alone like forever but you do you gotta wife. You could flip this. Do you just show her. How every chick like booby we'll win. Hiram tried to convince Joseph that yeah. Everything's GonNa be cool. Everything's GonNa be fine. All you gotTa do is write out the revelation. She'll be down for it. Joseph Awesome smiled and said quote you do not know Emma as well as I do still Hiram Push Bush eventually Joseph wrote down the whole kit and caboodle. Perhaps going a little too far and including a personal commandment for 'em because it had worked before four according to the revelation. Emma must quote receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph and to cleave even to my servant Joseph and no one else and if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed say the Lord and also Oh Joseph deserves a pool table in his own personal man-kei who they in so hiram who'd taken a polygamy like fucking duck to water catering which dig charge your played related three plates Novocaine reason he's a fuck yeah Joseph fucking nail that Bro taking this over to Emma right now. She's GonNa turn that Frown Tom. Upside down really takes bliss could be more of a fucking lauck a padlock from a hardware store my your friends but when Hiram returned hours later he told Joseph that he had never been so abused abused by a woman to which Joseph said quote. I told you you don't know Emma as well as I do. 'CAUSE sprouts like Nick. She was Super Mad at laid out. Cher foggy confused about in the Lord that even so sadly Ama- soon relented with all the resignation of a cult leader's wife. She told a friend that the revelation said she must submit or be destroyed so she guests she'd have to submit. That's exactly what she said. She said I guess S. I'll have to submit like just totally resigned to this holiday like I'm in this. I married him. I've got a family with I've got. I think at this point that three kids together like yeah. This is is my life. He's not GonNa Change Fuck after they had four dead babies right and they ended up adopting more at that point. They were trying to have babies and his very difficult. I think that she saw the writing hang on the wall that knew that Joseph Smith if he was going so far as to put his bullshit revelation as you would be destroyed. Is that like okay so he has decided that this is a must do like mckeon decided that this is now a part of it and it doesn't really reflect on the hermetic because in the fourteen hundreds alchemists often had plural marriages it was like a thing that they've always talked about how it was a part of going into heaven that it was idea of bringing a Harem of women into with you into the afterlife but she also owned new weirdly Joseph Smith had a habit of being correct about saying people would get destroyed. There was a there was one story that after the words words of wisdom past he told this guy who was a who'd been working for two years. He said I give you permission. You want to go out and get drunk tonight. You're going to go get drunk and party all night and comeback because if not you will die party all night long kissel. You can't be me. Oh Kiss Only Ara Funny Guy by go party. Kissel time won't die though but the other guy legitimately adamantly went and he didn't do it. He's like no I won't I will not do that and he fucking guide sh two weeks later so there's kind of these kinds of things kind of seemed to manifest a festive around Joseph Smith right well since absolute power corrupts absolutely it is without a doubt that some of these plural marriages were co coerced as is evidenced by the testimony of a feisty eighteen year old English girl named Martha Brotherston. She said that Brigham Young cornered her in a room above Joseph Store and told her that Smith had a revelation from God that is right for a man to have two wives and if she married Brigham he he take her to the celestial kingdom and if she was game Joseph would come upstairs and Mary them that night then they would consummate their marriage marriage. She could go home to her parents. Afterwards and her parents wouldn't have to know a single thing about it. I've also heard we do have to get married. What if we just do it up the button. Martha emphatically said no so Brigham called Joseph upstairs for the hard sell. Joseph said with a smile that she should just do it. Just do it and if you don't like it in a month or two. I'll make you free adding quote. If if eight tens you off I will take you all finally they let her go home unmolested and the first thing she did when she got there was to right down the whole episode when she showed it to her parents they got on the first steamer to Saint Louis and published the whole story in a local paper but again again Joseph got ahead of the story by talking to people I calling Martha Aligarh an adulterer making sure to publicly add the polygamy was evil and the Mormons. It's never even think a practicing it. What do you think about it. Shame on you dig about that. I would definitely not have like seventeenth specific wise the and that was all well and good for most Mormons because the brother Tins were new converts they weren't nobody knew who the fuck the browser or are. They just come over from from England but that wasn't the case when Joseph Smith started pursuing Sydney rigged in nineteen year old daughter Nancy Joseph went full court short press on his advisors young daughter riding a long love letter punctuated with defenses of polygamy but when Nancy showed her father the letter Sir Joseph claimed he was just testing Nancy's virtue Oh. I just wanted to see if she do it all then. I would spank her nude. I would bathe her immediately. I saw dared sleep with me. That's my daughter. You're talking to bathe and I make sure all the devils out uh-huh Jonah would do it fairly. I'm GonNa Punch you in the fucking knows warranted. You got me what what really put Mormon polygamy into the forefront nationwide was the excommunication of John Bennett Bennett had made fast friends with Joseph Smith and had risen into the rank of number one guy after only a year and a half but there had to be a sacrificial lamb for the Sydney rigged and fiasco so Bennett it was excommunicated for allegedly spreading lies about the prophet because Joseph said Bennett was the one who had spread the word about the saucy letter in so Bennett figured fuck this guy and started telling everything he knew about Mormons to the press and made sure to make up a whole bunch of extra shit to make the story even better then at claim. I'm that Joseph Smith had set up a system of religious prostitution in which the women were divided up into three categories the Cyprian saints the chambered sisters of charity and the cloistered saints. I mean that's fun. There's a three groups. Oh yeah basically Bennett said that the sole sole purpose of these women was to be incentives for the men of the church hierarchy to climb higher in the church because the higher you climbed the better the quality of woman although Joseph always got first pick. It's highly unlikely that this system ever existed it is possible that Joseph Smith maybe bandied about the idea eh because he him and Bennett talked about absolutely everything but there's no evidence whatsoever. Outset of benefits claims any of this ever happened. I truly would not put it past them. Though I truly weird could not this specific like sex part of it I think the idea of creating another category for women might have been in there where he's trying to figure out because they have the priesthood and they have the Makita priesthood and he wonders like maybe we could also do this other subdivision that we could do on this side and then I can even do more weird weird stats to keep people fucking in game more spiritual sky miles. I think you talked about it. I think he definitely played around the idea but with as many ex mormons as is there were around this time if anyone would have been a part of this they would have told me like it would be. There would have been multiple people that would have been able to confirm. I'm this but as it was it was only Bennett saying that all the shit was true but nevertheless the damage was done. Joseph Smith and the Mormons were now inextricably extricably linked to polygamy forever and always do and Joseph Smith Star Kooky religious frontier curiosity began Dan to fall and all of these problems may be why Joseph Smith started thinking of a way to come back with something big for his own people you gotta get. It's very possible possible. The Joseph used this as an opportunity to wag the dog and we don't know for sure if Joseph Smith gave this order but around the time the the polygamy story broke Joseph Smith's personal bodyguard porter rockwell shot the hated Missouri Governor Lilburn boggs three times times in the head to the Mormons this was both heartwarming revenge and the fulfillment of prophecy because after a little burn boggs had terrorized terrorized the Mormons with an extinction order Smith had prophesized that bogs would die within a year didn't seem to matter that it was most likely that Joseph Smith had fulfilled that prophecy himself by ordering the assassination of a government official out of either delayed revenge or hopeful distraction although we don't Oh for sure if joe is to beat one hundred percent fair. We don't know for sure that Joseph Smith ordered this or Puerto. Rico is just acting on zone. We'll Puerto Rockwell. He ended up escaping being from jail and he would go on forever and saying bragging about how he shot. Lilburn boggs on the word of Joseph Smith. I don't know if it's true or not. Joseph Smith said equivocally gooey now. I would never do that but I do think it makes a Lotta Sense. It's a it's a little bit. KINDA cousin Eddy in Christmas vacation. They're it certainly wish that someone would go and shoot that governor three times in the head. All do yeah sure you'LL L. Do it partner share your either way. Whether Joseph ordered it or not it seemed like once again his prophecy had come true but even though boggs was shot three times in the head he survived big head yeah and he soon swore an affidavit charging Joseph Smith with being an accessory before or the fact on the attempted murder. It is very very coincidental that it would be Puerta Rockwell yeah and then it would so that's the one that's that it funny thing about history. It's kind of like when you talk about any sort of conspiracy. Theory is that when these things kind of show up like the little tethers the little strings that could possibly show the Joseph Joseph Smith ordered a hint of a governor. It's hard to not say like the shoe fits. It does fit but you know. We don't have proof no that he he wore the shoe marches which is nebulous area is actually more even more powerful than evidence that can always be used. Yes Marcus. What is this. What what is this term. I'm I. I really want you to say this term. What is this what term in this situation who benefits Cui Bono. I believe we it is so to escape extradition. Joseph went into exile and briefly considered pulling up stakes on the whole operation for a fifth time and moving the Mormons to Wisconsin. You will go gee. You did a lot of work novel yeah. This was so this kind of pull out would be very very intense. I don't know if you would have flipped it fifth time. You might think that this is like any saw the writing on the wall especially because if he's making these kind of money moves if you really is trying to put this is true and he's trying to put ahead on the on the Governor Joseph Smith is starting to understand. We needed stand the test of time. We're going to do this and being like it is my way or the fucking highway. I am God. I can choose who live or die. You're not gonNA fucking. Chase me out of my own well. After another of Emma's children died during childbirth number five by my count Joseph turned himself in and threw himself on the mercy of the court luckily for him though the judge was Pro Mormon and a fierce proponent of states' rights lights so the extradition order to Missouri from Illinois was denied and Joseph went free not too long after all that after a probable assassination vacination attempt on a government official Joseph Smith ran for president he lost a Polk James Capel. Oh Yeah Yeah See Smith saw that politicians regularly courted the Mormons for the large block of votes that they could deliver it. That's part of how they were able to settle in new because as they had just been tea because back then it was wigs and Democrats and that Lilburn Boggs was a whig so when all of the Mormons moved to Illinois the local whig courted them as saying hey not all wigs are like that not all wigs are bad. Please keep voting wig your wig. Come on we love wigs. Come on let's do it and so they would often ignored. Joseph Smith became a bit of powerbroker so they went on the apology. Tour like dominoes did and now domino's is fairly tasty we go and that's why he fucking was pumping the numbers because I only needed bodies to build novel to do all of the kind of the infrastructural things to to make to farm the lands to make the a goods that they can sell in order to get money with this also gave him like you become too big to fail because you become this group where it's like now. They do what I tell them to do and they vote for who I tell them to vote for so what I can do is I can swell sway these local elections but what I need to do is get myself the national fucking desk I can get myself a national floor yeah. He just wanted to be on on the national stage. He ran for president for the publicity. See Joseph had always thought that the best form of government was theocracy and he figured who better to be president of the United United States than the originator of the American religion at least in theory because Joseph knew that he didn't have a chance in hell the win but he'd already been looking into the possibility ability of Mormon sovereignty and if he ran for president that eventuality would not seem so strange when the time came it sends and chill up my spine 'cause the shit is always been this way people who run for president on just trying to get the fucking the likes just trying to get the notice. It's trying to get all the fame points because he wants to build his name and like what if he did win all the way we'd be fucked it would have been gory so in early eighteen forty four. Smith organized a secret council of fifty quote Unquote Princes whose first act was to Crown Joseph. If as the king of the Kingdom of God oh after that he sent the first expedition of men West beyond the borders of America to find a place where that king might rule this fucking real once he starts this talk. This is really the he is but this is where my summation is that he he's becoming very dangerous person. Possibly I've quite possibly he might be becoming a very dangerous person but I think more than likely he he was going to eventually move across the border like he was not. I don't think he was gonNA. I don't think he was going to risk a fight with the United States government because he knew that he couldn't even handle a Missouri militia like those people wiped them out. I mean you think he's honestly going to be able to go against the fucking union. The the numbers are bigger than ever at this point not that many people but it starts at fifteen thousand remember. He's young yeah. He doesn't know what's going to happen is going to happen to him so this shit like he could triple that but I think in this like in this action of like sending people out West because he was sending people to California and the Pacific northwest like because all that was astill Mexico further isolation yes he's going to he is already making plans for like further isolation like a Weirdo but he needs that clout like he needs that cloud for the win win. The time comes when America swallows up the rest of the continent like he needs to have the clout to be able to say hey. I've already got this thing going here like don't fuck with me. I I I am a known figure and America as having sovereignty. Don't fuck with me. Give rid of the Pesky people already living there convert Verte but even though Joseph was only running for President for publicity there were many Americans who saw a potential theocratic president as a very real threat threat to the separation of church and state and therefore these United States what was more the masons had heard that Smith was using their most secret and sacred rituals in his new religion and was currently telling any Mormon who came to the temple all about their secret under penalty of death rituals force of all a lot of Mormons within Avoue. Were starting to get sick of Joseph. Smith's Shit see when Joseph got in trouble for fucking he employed employed. The age old tactic of what aboutism and started naming trusted friends as dodgers. You think I'm bad you should see what Sydney ridden gets up to expulsed. That's not good even worse. Men who were opposed to polygamy were being forced to marry their daughters to Joseph specifically or risk excommunication and Joseph kept asking for more free land from his landowning Mormons to settle the now now fifteen thousand Mormons that lived in Vu because so many people were coming over from England. Injustice myth kept saying like okay we got another forty coming today got another fifty gotTa. I put these people somewhere you're gonNA give me your land and that's just what's going to happen now. There's part of me that he kind of becomes this is the line where he's kind of becoming like God emperor of Dune soon. You have more and more of these wives because you're bringing with them. You're bringing them to the afterlife and he is keeps saying that. This is going to help in your exultation arriving driving with these many celestial marriages each offspring have spiritual offspring with each one of these spiritual wives that will have after this creates a new planet a new place that increases creases mormonism throughout the multi-diverse and so there's a thing inside of him. Why do believe he saw he believes shit and he saw highway to be coming coming elohim like I am going to not just the profit. I'm going to be the new arm of God. I'm going to use all of this new visible clout out and when it goes to fuck and heaven it becomes spiritual clout and I'M GONNA fucking cash out and be president of the universe. My mom has a star and if that motherfucker tries is to invade her star real fight because you don't mess with the cast was well. There were a lot of men in the that just couldn't take it problem was though they didn't leave new meaning there were now fierce ex. Mormons living amongst the Mormons Woman's in some of those ex Mormons started a newspaper this Kinda like how you live with your ex for six months. That was only six months now. I just lived in my room piston gatorade bottle. That's another story but I heard a newspaper. You Start Your own like an anti put out from underneath the door work for anyone who read to take it back at himself and read it. I'm the publisher and the reader well. That newspaper was called the new fhu exposure in May of eighteen forty four it published. It's only issue which is a full expose on what went on in Joseph Smith Pantaloon. The story detailed seduction. 's completely exposed the polygamy revelation and confirmed the rumors of of Joseph's many wives because at this point even a lot of Mormons didn't know about polygamy. Even the people within the religion did not know the polygamy was a big part of their that Joseph Smith and Brigham young and Parley Pratt and all these people up top. Were practising practising it so this is a huge revelation in when schilling this came came from outside Joseph he was always able to get ahead of the story and he could squash it from the pulpit but these accusations were coming from neighbors. These are coming from people who are respected and trusted members of the community now. Smith knew that he fucked up with polygamy. He told a friend that polygamy would be the Mormons destruction that he had been deceived by the devil. The polygamy was a curse and that they would have to leave the country if the story wasn't put to bed. This is why it's a said this to myself and I should've listened my own advice. It's owns important jerk off before revelation. You can clear your mind because now I mean like I am empty. I couldn't come. I couldn't come with a rocket up my ass and five women's sucking on my feet. They have made a boo-boo but in trying to crush the story. Joseph Smith made his last mistake he gathered a legion of men marched to the offices of the explosives burned every issue and destroyed the printing press afterwards the apostates who had printed the story fled town and reported the crimes to the nearby Warsaw signal this the funny thing about the Joseph Smith story he could take multiple wives he could manipulate people in giving him their land and savings he could seduce underage girls he could even attempt to assassinate a government official but fuck him with the free press. That's gone too far. Merca to after the Warsaw signal published the accusations mobs from Missouri and I woke crossed the Mississippi Be River with the express purpose of stirring up Joseph Smith once and for all no one th- he'd fucked up for the last time Joseph sent his family away with a group of bodyguards and fled to Carthage with his brother Hiram where they were both arrested on riot charges for the destruction of the exposure. I'll tell you what bugging Joe. There's no mayor rather bugging being of jails within you my again rather looking cool shut up. Joseph resigned to his fate knowing that he probably wasn't going to get out of this one and requested a big old bottle of wine and had one more drink with his brother before the mob came for him one last time now. It's believed that the governor of the State Governor Ford gave the state militia tacit permission to do what they did in order to prevent another Mormon war but either way one hundred Carthage greys appeared outside the doors of the jail house where Joseph and Hiram were being held they burst I in the jail and ran up the stairs to Joseph. Sell shooting anyone who got in their way but somehow the other Mormons held with Joseph and Hiram had smuggled in guns so Joseph Ziff was given a six shooter while Hiram got a single shot pistol. When it wasn't anywhere near enough you mean the dookie guns weren't enough the militia kicked kicked in the door to the cell and killed Hiram. I hitting him four times in the torso. Shin Thigh and face Joseph though was unhurt so he emptied his six shooter shooter in the Hallway and made towards a window but as he got one leg over the window sill and raised his arms in the masonic signal distress which is exactly what you think it is literally used as your in your hands at right angles going he was hit by a hail of musket balls to the hip chest and shoulder and Joseph fell from the window his last words were Oh Lord my God and he hit the ground hard on his left side and momentarily managed managed to sit up against the curb but his wounds were far too much to bear and the American prophet expired right there in the gutter a following Smith's death a new ritual was added to the endowment from eighteen forty five until nineteen thirty. Mormons swore an oath of vengeance called the blood atonement in which each and every mormon swore to avenge the assassination of Joseph Smith this oath applied light to apostates Anti Mormons Adulterers and thieves and the oath clearly stated the only way to save those who were lost were to end their lives on earth and give them a chance at redemption. It's giving them a chance and nobody was a bigger believer. In the oath of vengeance than Brigham Young MORMONISM 's dirtiest weirdest most violent shit obsessed leader uh-huh well cover in depth on part five of mormonism. Oh there it is mormonism part for unbelievable and there's a little it quote i WanNa read from Joseph Smith that comes from his king full the discourse which is last recorded sermons he gave two months before he died which is an examination of basically his cabalistic teachings if you read into it but what he said if we start right it is easy to go right all the time but if we start wrong we may go wrong and it will be a hard matter to get right which is from now on air you literally what we're going to see how the the fucking oath of vengeance is go go and all of the different little mechanisms that are inside just that very beginnings of mormonism are what's going to allow it to blossom into later true crime stories after we cover what Brigham Young I'm fucked this fucking character Jesus Christ. I mean because what Joseph Smith the difference between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young is that Joseph Smith was still living even in America like Joseph. Smith thought that he was a King he thought it was a wonderful theocratic society still very much. It was still very magical still very I deeply listrik and right hand pathy. Brigham Young was a fucking dictator. Well we will get to Brigham. Young on the next episode cannot wait the next episode about Mormonism that is we do. DO WE WANNA make this little announcement because we are on the road right now in Europe and also want to thank everyone who's come out to our live shows in new blend in in Edinburgh Birmingham was amazing man. We shared a stage with black Sabbath they weren't they weren't there at the time but you could see like literally really we got to perform in the same stage. Ozzy Osbourne performed in Birmingham which was like an unreal dream. Come true so called Bristow was great. Thanks everyone who came out in Bristol. It's it's been a fantastic fucking run but because of the fact that we're still on tour next week's episode we are going to do a relaxed fit episode because if we wouldn't wouldn't do that you just wouldn't get the same sound quality and it just would not be up to snuff for us and mormonism series is it's not even sound quality. It is the quality of research search that it takes to go. Its how much research has to go into these episodes. We cannot put the amount of research that we need to put into it while we're going from London to Saul. Dot Com to Berlin circus and I put a lot of the kissel. I'll do my own kind of research. You're doing it. We we have really been Boston our ass on this series wonderful series already at four different source materials and we have been kind of scouring the Internet and doing all doing as much as we can speaking with ex Mormons Mormons and so this is a we are really trying to lay this series out as thick as humanly possible and this next episode in the next two are very very important for us to land yeah absolutely so what we WANNA do is that for next week for the relaxed fit. We've had some people reach out and say they want us to do like a Q. and A. Type. Show right right and what we want to say. It's like you send in questions and you've been dying asking I mean it's like I really WanNa do like an Ama where you guys send things that you've been really curious about about the show about various topics things that you wanna yell at us about things that you want to go like all of that and we're going to address as many as possible in a queue. QNA relaxed fit absolutely so email side stories L. P. O. T. L. at gmail.com put in the subject relaxed fit. QNA and we will look at as many as we can and I think it'll be wonderful. We haven't done that in a very long time on side stories occasionally read emails but rarely are they in the form of a question question so yes. If you have some thoughts on your on your mind that you wanted to ask us it can be about podcasting. It can be about a subject that we've covered in the past. It can be about our friendship it really we're we're open so we are excited to speak with you in that direction on next week's episode and this is all to ensure that the mormonism series as Zig will live forever will live as great as possible and I also want to give extreme extra special things to Research Assistance Rachel Shoe and Joel mckean who who've been going above and beyond on these last four parts with helping us out and for all the work that they've already done on the episodes to come. They've been absolutely fantastic on this episode. Thank you all so much for your help on this one and our goals because we're inserting relaxed fit next week. We're not going inserting. Another relax. FIT AFTER MORMONISM is complete. We will move onto the next topic. We already have lined wind up which is a very fun though story and we have a serial killer that we've been asked to cover many many times that is also in the pipeline immediately following so don't worry more content is coming content the content never thank you all so much for supporting the entire last podcast network. We absolutely without you. We don't exist we're. Diy As always so we shall see you in Berlin we will see you in Stockholm and we have one more show show in London as well so we cannot wait to see you in those wonderful places never forget folks. No matter what you're going through Hail Yourselves Hail Satan gain Magoo's just elections. Joseph Smith was not wrong in many ways in terms of like. He's a go getter. He's a go getter was wrong in many ways though dead go yeah. I like the underwear better now 'cause they used to joke about it. I didn't realize it was the full body UNDIES grade. I'd seriously I had I do minor cameo. Now I have actual Real Mormon underwear that I found like an old thrift store and I wore them by every single day in the winter for like cannon on my first ten winners New York City in honestly when you think about it they were in in Illinois. That's just out of necessity freezing. y'All going to help this. Show is made possible by listeners like thank you. Thanks to our AD sponsors you can support our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listen to go to last podcast network. Dot Com

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Episode 378: Mormonism Part I - When Youre Here Youre Family

Last Podcast on the Left

1:46:31 hr | 2 years ago

Episode 378: Mormonism Part I - When Youre Here Youre Family

"No place to escape to the lost cast on the left. That's one of the cannibalism listen started. I was watching this documentary series really today in preparation for today's episode on it was called mormon girls with his e seen this. I've seen this documentary. It's a favorite robert hotel. Documentary of mine filmed by joe francis from girls. Gone wild sadly not anymore. Those opportunities were gone from him due to his criminal past <hes> aw but his art history i guess is still there yes but this this this is a complicated story but it also shows the power of storytelling and how how important it is and if you want as many teen brides as you can throw seat at you've got to be really good at telling a joke we also learned from woody allen. Yeah i guess so. Hey what's up everyone how you doing. This is the last podcast on the left. I am ben am with marcus. I hello marcus then and we have beautiful henry's brow ski. He's on the east coast studio. He looks fresh. He looks clean. It's great to have you with us. Yeah i showered twice this morning because we're about to drive to atlantic city wanting to build like a cleanliness like barrier come on man they're going to they're going to smell you out right right away and just splashed you with a whole bunch of stetson. I'm going in their fullest sets in so they know i'm one of this topic. I'm gonna say is maybe one of the deepest draper utah depot one of the deepest most gaping topics we've ever done. It's the the getting to the cervix of this topic wouldn't make a fifteen inch peanuts and a person. I know that it's possible that is even capable of getting to the very top of this service. Is mr marcus himself. That's absolutely right with his all right today's topic and the topic for the foreseeable future. That'll be a bit of a lengthy series. This is now a mormonism podcast absolutely ed officially as we are getting in to mormonism. Let's begin in some you might be wondering exactly why we decided to tackle the history of what is now accepted as a mainstream religion but the thing about the church of jesus christ latter-day saints aints aka mormonism is that it's a lot more in common with scientology than it does with christianity. We do have a lot more than listeners. People always in the salt lake especially salt lake city utah. We a lot of listeners within we're trying to do is examine. This is from the the humanistic perspective <hes> absolutely so when you say it's scientology. Are we going to be talking. Corgis cordy involved are there. Any dogs involved with mormonism. I mean this is a time period. Heard were dogs are used as labor and food. You can pet a dog but technically they would consider you week with bert. Stick okay okay. The reason why we say it's like scientology is it. Mormonism began as a cult of personality with one man at the top performing his own unique brand of religious improv improv that somehow resulted in an established concrete belief system mormonism is what you see be wishes could happen. You wish they could get that that much. I mean they are deeply entrenched but the really really believed that improv can take you all the way to the top and technically same thing with our president. He showed the same thing which again improper run everything and is very very scary. It really is scary. Improv is maybe the most nefarious all comedic art forms <hes> where we say about jim jones sidestep and bullshit sidestepping bullshit and i love that country song or mormonism that man at the top was perhaps one of the most fascinating canadian complex and eneg matic men of the nineteenth century joseph smith who this man who essentially started off as a grave robber with a natural natural talent for storytelling ended up creating religion that now boasts a worldwide membership of over sixteen million mormons wow which is a part of there's a controversial thing to be said about calling mormonism. A cult were now. It's more established and have changed a lot of their rules but of the if you look at the essential nature of how it started ordered it started in a nefarious place which is another way mormonism is very similar to scientology because we have a man joseph smith even even people who have left mormonism because of their various tenants have nothing bad really to say about joe smith. He's viewed as a pure heart. He's viewed as everybody else went in twisted his stuff which is why i mean we're gonna get into it because most sources. You're going to read about joseph. Smith are from a pro mormon angled paid for by mormon sources a lot especially even that p._b._s. e._s. Documentary we watch yeah which is great but it is it these the mormon sources of pro mormon sources kind of the view that they take on joe on joseph smith is said they sort of bring you clothes and go. Hey let me tell you a little secret ale i. I know this is a little ridiculous but you know what it's the truth. It's the thing to remember same exact villian where joseph smith <hes> he was a tap dancer fool an dan took a straight to the top world l ron hubbard searching for the same shit but i think we're gonna see we track joseph. Smith's life is that joseph smith was just taken out before he got dangerous. Also joseph smith he has has the same name as all the names on the credit card commercials that just have to be like generic white guy were to you and the numbers are all zero but he happens to be named joseph smith. I was also looking into the epstein black book recently because they have the p._d._f. Of it out and i was looking through it and there's like forty five joseph smith's well another thing kind of a difference between scientology mormonism is that i actually found if you go on the ex mormon sub read it. They have a few choice words to say about. Joseph smith law uh-huh but we thought it was a very good place to start. We're like okay so we're going to cover all crimes mormonism. Let's start from the very top of the shaft and see where these balls were like at the very beginning of the bush. Let's get into it. Well somehow the mormons went from being some of the most hated people in america the only religious group who's ever gotten at an actual extermination order from state government oh to openly running one of their own as president in just three generations dan that's all. It took okay super light. It's like drake man yeah so the big question here. How the fuck did this happen. How does one small coat started in ohio by a grave robbing statutory. Dacha tori rapist become one of the largest religions in the modern world practice. The question of how mormonism has produced so much sexual abuse use will become apparent as we go on but a harder question is how does mormonism which is at its core a peaceful religion. How does mormonism also inspire multiple instances of extreme violence and in one case a full on massacre. It seems to happen with a lot of these little peaceful for religions catholicism at the very basis besides the cannibalism is actually like you know it's got some good ideas and their jesus was apparently very nice when he was in his multiple asked i wife would use the cool reinvented. Jesus here is that all he did was faulk. Could actually he did do that but it was with all his buddies and that was because they were desert lonely. He had a lot the dudes following him around and again. If you are mormon we are not criticising. Everyone who is mormon. No this is just an overview and we could do this exact overview and we just referenced i in catholicism or this is just a human creation and whenever humans create something there's a lot of room for error and over the course of the next five episodes we hope to answer all these questions and more and eventually we'll get into all the tiny messiahs and tiny prophets that have plagued mormonism in modern times like bagel boss loss time. Don't you even talk about the bagel mafias. Gonna come rub you out but in order to understand how warren jeffs in the mountain meadow massacre could happen. We've got to understand the first prophet joseph smith but before we even do that. Let's acknowledge our two main sources for at at least joseph smith portion of our series because joseph smith is going to take up the bulk of the next three episodes. The first book is no man knows my history. Sorry by fawn brodie written in nineteen forty five it is still the only reputable book out there that takes a completely unvarnished view of joseph smith although it can be guilty at times of heavy speculation yeah fawn had some ideas fun had some ideas ended but it is still a fucking great book beautifully written. It's got a great history. Ah in and of itself like fawn brodie was thirty years old. When this book was published. She wrote it when she was twenty and she wrote it with two kids and her husband moved a lot for for work like they were moving all over the country she had two kids and she's still wrote a book that today is still respected as a solid work of scholarship and doing something no one else had done before and no one else has really top sense make an incredible secret commercial. Do you remember john. Yes absolutely but even though this book okay isn't perfect. No man knows my history is the more human conman focused view of joseph smith and like i said it's still respected to this day. Our other source by contrast is the one that views joseph smith as a genuine yet somewhat flawed profit that book it's rough stone rolling by richard lyman bushman yeah yes indeed butch bushman written in two thousand five rough stone was supposed to be a kind of light touch touch rebuttal to no man knows my history because no man knows my history was supposed to be like she did a lot of research on it was a cobbled together. Especially joseph of smith's early years were incredibly difficult to piece together but what rough stone rolling then did. He said i can do work to. I'm gonna do canadians dick bush. There's a work. Oh my god fond versus dick. What am i doing ringing a bell ding ding ding ding. It's time for a book fight. That's the saddest people silently in a room reading across one star on good read <music> royston rolling presents itself as a kind of warts and all type of biography but it tends to completely ignore joseph joseph smith's actual motivation it prefers instead to depend heavily on the concept of divine revelation where he's everyone of joseph smith's miss revelations that will get into an episode to episode three rough stone rolling attributes that to god told him to do this while no man knows my history says is this is the shit that was going on in joseph's life that caused him to have this revelation interested and that means that much of the broader story in both books is identical nicole rough stone rolling either gloss over or completely omits extremely important parts of joseph smith's history even though it's still three hundred pages longer than and the other one but had a lotta pictures at least fifty pages of just song and they give you an idea of the difference in content while both authors started rated writing as mormons fawn brodie was excommunicated the year after her book was published while richard bushman won the mormon history association's is best book award the year after his was published there it is and probably a lot of kids in mormon. School got those pizza with the book club. It's why we always remember to say we love joe rogan and we just wanna make sure that no one ever thinks opposite luck. It is see fawn. Brodie brody was named an apostolate or is it a pasta or apostate purred apostate a pasta. Yes that's when your prostate is really getting to jesus. That's a funny johnnie hits the funny thing if you think about it with the verbiage their primary no man knows my history. I looked at a whole series of different pornos this week we're talking about what are we well. An apostate is the first of many words in the mormon vernacular that we're going to learn over the course of the series basically quickly the apostate in the mormon sense is anyone who questions the absolutely insane story of joseph smith or questions any sort of church belief policy ritual or tradition addition. It is in scientology terms would be called an s pay yeah. It is the exact same thing which is a part of the reason why mormonism starts to swing towards colt and away from religion suppressive person <hes> see mormons are expected to live in what they call perfect obedience. Mormon girls has a lot of that. That's that's that's gonna work out. That's gonna work out great and anyone who breaks the rules or ask questions camby and often will be excommunicated and just like the scientology excommunication in the mormon church means losing your community oftentimes losing your entire family owned by leaving the mormon church is so difficult you mean to tell me i don't have to be screened leaned screamed at by both of my parents and then have to share food with my brothers. This excommunication idea sounds wonderful. All the mormon families. I men are very sweet. That's part of the reason why you know again deeper and deeper. We can't stop it stop. It's the only way i think of the word deeper. It's why it's hard to leave and why it's hard to question. Even the the problems within the church the build these little very isolated communities that on their own are are are well. Taken care of the families are very loving. It's a very loving community yes but the problem is. Is that the it's it's more of the they don't want to hear the evidence. They do not want to be a party to it. They wanted they don't wanna know that anybody who is a human being who is saying saying that i am the prophet and literally i'm the only person who can talk to god for you and i'm the only person it's legit and that you have to listen to this person with perfect obedience which is a lot of times i mean i'm not gonna say anything about the gangly horny twisted old men with the hairy knuckles and the big rings that run mormonism in what they do and how their hands like spiders that move up to your hips even if you're close to the age twelve years old you're wondering why the ignore all that atten because the rest of it's so nice all the other packaging all the good stuff. It's like being in the republican party. I hear a lot of those mixers or fun. They always i have good parties. There and that's nice. Henry's law is not in los angeles. He's here in the east coast studio so when he does his act out he can really touch me and henry. Just did a spider your cross up my leg and i don't know how to feel about it. I really don't and i also just want to say you know it's important to it's difficult to do it but you've got to separate sometimes people from i'm their religion and their political ideology just see them as people because again these are loving communities in many ways and there are some loving people involved yes they are loving communities in these are loving families just so long as you stay in line yep the moment you step out of line the moment you questioned the moment you want the moment you start living life the way you wanna because they are no longer loving commute. I understand no they become the n._f._l. D._s._p. Becomes like scientology especially as we get later on in these episodes and we start covering that specific facific offshoot of mormonism in you're searching like they are not they become very not friendly peak chemist from the quaker oats man but they're are women and they are mad at you good despite mormonism so many gigantic and fatal flaws or perhaps because of them mormonism is specifically american religion in that it could not have been created anywhere else in the world at any other time in history see when mormonism was founded. That's not really a week you know. It's a mixed bag. See when mormonism was founded the idea that the government had no say whatsoever in religion and in fact backed off as hard as they could from religion. That was totally new. It was a totally new idea that had never been a concept in world government before but the interesting dichotomy of america is that while the founding fathers were freewheeling intellectuals who pretty much came up with the idea for america in a series of bars as a fun thought not exercising the actual people who live here were by and large religious loons religious lou we don't even i know it barely even see guys anymore. One could that be. I do love the concept of it because you were reading fantasy land. Let me see land is fantastic so fucking good at the beginning of america literally was drunk dudes bar. Just smart guys figure this shit out man. Oh man what a fun experiment german it has been. Yes indeed do that all the time. We've figured out a lot of stuff with that pig farmer. I spoke to same ball figuring out quite a few things in bars. Oh yeah uh-huh well the difference those the founding fathers actually pulled it off like the drunk ideas that they had we're living in right now ah but they also had to get all of actual people who lived in america to come along with that idea yeah. It's like it's a fun to talk about with your buddies about how you should run a fucking elevated corn dog restaurant in about three thirty in the morning and it sounds better and better and better you know what i mean. Put the promise. You need corn dog manufacturers. You need corn corn dog taste tester guy with sticks cut benjamin franklin and a to suck it on a corn dog very seducing just also deductive and things just be and that's another thing that's right well the whole thing about like taxation without representation. The thing about that is that we have been paying taxes to in class. They were fighting role wars for us like we have like taxation without representation was a scam this why they've gone looks bad ideas like us. Paying taxes to england is that they had to get all these people to come along somehow because it was these were high falutin ideas and i'm not saying that every person in america in seventeen seventy six was an idiot or even even overly religious but it's not like we were just overflowing with ben franklin <hes> no i mean he was overflowing experimenting with world cuisine. That's what i'm trying to do but i'm on the inside after all you know many of the first settlers came here because their religious beliefs were a bit much for europe and americans have always loved the idea of being able to not only live whatever life they wanted to live but to also believe whatever whatever the fuck it is they want to believe no matter how insane or fact defying that belief might be. It's called making it work talking to wrongs. They could make a right if the two wrongs are. You're you're you are correct yourself episodes. Yeah belief has always been more important to americans americans in fact. That's just the way it is. What is a fact markets. A thing that is true. All what is true we can be this way now you to our great americans see that as an insult how you do it you flip it. We'll mormonism is a prime example of this and mormonism took it even further by geographically rooting christianity in america safe. Those of you who don't know much about mormonism mormonism is to christianity what christianity hannity is to judaism the obviously this over simplification. We're trying to figure out exactly how to explain it but i do love your angle on this. Yeah that's understandable. Well it took the already existing existing judeo-christian stories and just added a new book an addendum with all new rules and only stories that doesn't fully discount anything that was written before but it's still acknowledges the all of it did in fact happen yeah. We're in the fan fiction worlds of christianity. Oh i've i've heard many jewish person referred to the new testament as jewish fantastic sure interesting yeah yeah but what the book more and says is that everything that has been taught to christians between christ's death and say about eighteen thirty was completely and totally wrong because they were missing a full third of the story and that missing third just so happen to occur in america trilogy. It's always a problem to do for movies because it doesn't really make as much sense as just three well for example. If you've ever wonder wonder where jesus christ went during those three days between his crucifixion and resurrection go america got on a little bhagat pumper a he came out here he i think he took the concord straight to new york and it was him and arnold schwarzenegger as hercules great movie yeah yeah yeah and the garden of eden ben. I know you've wondered where that that were. That was i already went to the garden of eden. It's chain restaurant now. Yeah i'm talking about the biblical garden of eden. It's in narnia. It's in jackson county missouri. We're going to put the garden of paradise of course in the middle of beautiful missouri. If it was in the middle of jackson missouri it would be full of panera breads and arab curriculum out and meth county missouri. That's where independence missouri is now. Okay yeah well. In other words. Joseph smith who was a fantastically ashley talented storyteller by the standards of the time joseph smith created a mythology for america using story that was already familiar to the majority of americans. He just retrofitted an old school like native american which were also necessarily wasn't true and he he did what what because it wasn't twilight wasn't wasn't fifty shades of grey twilight fan fiction. I believe that that's how it started the new twilight fan fiction. It's just that thing were they just took a story and he went and he twisted it. We're just lucky that walt disney just wanted to make money. They want is just wanted to make money so he created his stories where it's like an even l ron hubbard even i almost view him with the level of purity because he just wanted money yeah where joseph smith used the storytelling ability ability to control human beings <hes> okay but there is an important distinction to make with joseph smith josie smith did not consider himself a messiah like david koresh karesh did he did not think that he was the second coming of jesus christ no he would never deign to say he's the messiah but is the only one that can speak for the messiah see. That's a good move though smart move he makes him look humble and then despite but then that's how you get in the back door and then people put you in the front yep that's right. I mean gee joseph. Smith was a prophet joseph. Smith was like he's the american muhammad the american moses okay but what's convenient about that at least from the perspective of the modern mormon establishment is that joe smith can now be re-jigger d- as just a man or a product of his time. Oh yeah it's it's like going you know because then you like hey hey guys. I'm just a guy point of those being like joseph. You just told me to sleep with my own daughter. Come on the guy little also in there with your own daughter your perver- because i already had her never made his followers have sex with their own dog by glad to talk today. Many mormons choose to look at the big picture of joseph's life. You don't look at the details you don't look at the small things sure they joseph smith's life into a larger faith in god which sweeps away any detail such as child brides that might make mormons woman's uncomfortable okay and if you really start asking questions from the outside at least all mormons have to say is don't take our word for it. Millions of people already eddie believes oh yeah absolutely she was great. If millions of people believe it the next thing you know the daily show has another emmy hold that line by the way is from an l._d._s. website that desperately titled. It's true it's true. They also wanna preface this. I am going to do feel like i just said it again. I just technically spoke like pro. L. r. h. words. I don't mean to mark and i talked about this about how like i'm in l. H. guy because you physically are him guy. I mean and i know he's a role physically. Embody role model but marcus is kind of joseph smith guy you know why because i i like fantasy in henry like sci-fi even one hundred both of their personalities nobody to it's a huge part. It's their storytelling style because joseph joseph smith told an old school fantasy story like with warring tribes in different races and he had like orcs versus l. the ultimate irony of this this entire podcast is both of you are going to become cult members that is you're going to become a mormon going to become a scientologist that i'm just going to be like. I guess i'm going to go enroll at four well. University versity marcus and i don't like bosses. That's why we were bad at regular jobs but then now we're at this point where it's like. I i would have to be in charge difficult but what are we discovering his bosses of her own little companies. I don't know how to tell them what to do. You just you can also see why joseph smith you so you have all these people like what he wanted. It do joe. What do you want to do eventually like. I guess you guys can start blowing me. The only job i've ever had with bosses was when i was a dog. Nanny and those were dog boss's boss's get you wow what she was. A boss. Well baked into mormonism. Dna is the ability to change course whenever they want through what they call revelation meaning that at any time god can come down and give the mormons a new commandment advent. Everyone has to be cool at that. Revelation is why mainstream mormons no longer practice polygamy despite the fact that it was at one point a central tenet of their belief system one of the biggest revelations but we'll get into polygamy on episode two. I've seen a show. I've seen sister wives and that is their mormon aren't they but the mainstream mormon established the big the core of twelve or whoever the fuck they are the salt lake city people up top. They all come out against moore tale. Come out against polygamy. They polygamy is wrong. We should not do polygamy. They supposedly did away with polygamy before the twentieth century so about the remember the revelation is that like a group email sent to everyone. Revelation is given to the prophet whoever is the president of the church at the time time heat and interprets and then tells everybody what god told him to do so so that's kind of their david miscavige age type person than the but david miscavige thing kind of has like so he does have a panel that he has to go run shit by right but the general movement is that whatever the prophet says is the word of god. I will say probably louis the next ten to twenty years. The head of the l. is going to have a revelation saying gate. People are fine yeah because i want to stay in power want to stay in power. They wanna stay relevant and that's the that's the big that's the big sticking point with more minutes. They could probably get on that sooner than ten or fifteen years. It's going to take a while to get on. It and i guarantee you salt. Lake city's changed quite a bit because they've become a more open city especially l._g._b._t. Community and you're gonna and it's about that it's they are standing the test of time joe the original title energy that came forward from joseph smith it could have been done it could've been squash then but brigham young help take the whole thing to the next level which will woah calm yeah. We'll get into him. I mean judging by the amount of alcohol that was consumed. When we were in salt lake city. I'm assuming they sort of relaxed. The rules on booze little bit as well well well. Let's put it this way. Polygamy was when the american government came to utah and said we will only make you a state. If you get rid of polygamy pretty the prophet would light god interesting. God was dressed like a member of the f._b._i. Intriguing but really when you get down to it the mormon belief system is really no crazier than the christian belief system the hindu belief system the islamic belief system or the jewish belief system the difference here though is that we don't have testimony from jesus's next door neighbor nor do we have accounts counts of luke are mark fucking over people and treasure hunting expeditions or marrying young teenagers when they were in their late thirties. Admittedly you know the old testament does have the whole noah like naked bacon drunk and having sex zone daughters the parable parable the point is though is what we have with joseph. Smith is a wealth of actual information about his actual. Doc will life not just what the more establishment wants us to now so this is the most recent big religion right less than two hundred years ago so this is guess. Scientology would be the most recent yes. This is really interesting to actually be right there and this is probably most likely what the prophets of the bible were truly like and kind of yeah. It makes you think about the entire thing again. Take extended but i don't wanna say that but then again it does roll off the tongue it doesn't it so without further ado let's get into the story of joseph smith and the birth of the church of jesus christ latter-day saints aka the mormons. Can we have some some of that. Native american flute like documentary jokes spirit was born in vermont and the natural history museum using yeah. I love that so he birthed the religion. Joseph smith capacity for questioning mainstream religion was <unk> actually somewhat of a family tradition with his mother writing that she couldn't choose a church because every church said that every other church was wrong. She called it the church she said the witness. The churches just witnessed against one another so it is impossible to choose the correct one because part of it is that when we when we change when we took when we separated church and the state when america went independent and seventeen seventy six it comes through the whole thing into disarray because a bunch of secular dudes we're trying to we're still obviously religious people but that rift rift in the middle of this country so people kinda went insane for a little bit trying to figure out. What are we supposed to believe in. Who is the main church here. We're used to having a main in one. It's almost as if people are extremely tribal and can only handle a certain amount of people inside said tribe and in order to have said tribe they have to have an enemy which is most likely just another tribe eh remember. This is like twenty thirty years after the american revolution not that long afterward not at all. We're still a baby yeah. We are america's. It's a baby well justice. Smith also had storytelling in his ancestry as well. His grandfather solomon mack composed autobiography called a narrative the life of solomon mack kick ass name. I have to say solomon solomon. Mack is like double bat yeah yeah. He sounds like the best bass ace player from one thousand nine hundred seventy s. Why are my pants all wet. I know why that's not my friend. Well this book writing an actual book that set salomon mac apart from other americans at at the time because writing was not common in any way whatsoever on the other hand. Once solomon grew into old age he fell into what fawn brodie called a kind of senile mysticism with lights and voices haunting his sick bed day and night. We're going to see eh. The beginnings of especially america were incredibly mystic. There was a lot of occult leanings and that's part of why i'm very excited about talking about joseph smith and his basically incorporation incorporation of entire world of right hand path magic into mormonism and joseph smith had other religious dissenters on that side of his family's well joe jason mac joseph smith's uncle setup a quasi communistic society of thirty families in new brunswick and oversaw both economic and spiritual welfare and they jump right over this this and other. They don't like to bring him up quite a bit in mormon circles because it straight up shows his uncle ran occult yeah and he got this all of this was downloaded into joseph smith sprain even as a little kid so just the family business it sounds like yup and as far as the other side of joseph smith's family went smith's ancestry ran back back to pre revolutionary war days with his first ancestor robert smith coming to massachusetts in sixteen thirty eight. I love how gough he was. The same roberts man that would have been a weird right on the funky vanita santamaria yeah. What was the other one the one that went to casserly raw. Oh you're talking about plymouth rog. You're talking about the mayflower yeah robert smith and his button up certain his khakis. I love scare a running down his face and like is weird pink lipstick god. I have always said it. Bill hicks wanted his rockstars dead. I want my rockstar. I fat fat. Marilyn manson. Rob zombie. Rob is still rail thin. Oh yeah he looks good yeah. Maryland's got a little bit. He's got some writer gut. I love it. In today's podcast on the left is brought to you by twenty three and me sure dna testing told me what corners of the earth man sessions from. Did you know those tests could also so give you a lot of genetic information about your health and traits understand more about yourself today and inform how you live your life going forward twenty. Three's helping ancestry service. 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Colon slash slash native deodorant dot com and use promo code last daring checkout blah with the one thing the smiths could never figure out was how how to make money before smith was even born his father invested all his family savings in a shipment of ginseng although new englanders at the time they preferred preferred parrilla pleurisy root and something called skunk cabbage. We're head hamster carrots healthcare. Oh yeah they're great. You ever had those now <hes> uh-huh cucumber. What is this that you've never had a burs blersch naming in real foods because you eat the weirdest up doesn't really matter that new england didn't like ginseng all that much because smith wasn't trying to sell ginseng to new englanders flinders he was trying to export to china where it was said that a ginseng root shaped like a man could be sold for as much as four hundred dollars come and a and the reason why it did was because if you did sell against roof it looked like a man it does help with your weiner. I'm here really believe that. I believe that and you also referenced just one of the only good characters from t._v. Predictably though the transportation agent that sold the ginseng to china fuck off to canada with the money so so the smiths were forced to sell their farm and use lucy's dowry to pay off their debts and this is going to be a marker them for forever because for a second they had money yeah they were ready to go because one of the family members of the past at figured out how to make that cash and from then on it's going to be like how do we make some fucking easy eight dollars because we are bad at every single thing that we touch so it really is just someone making a bad investment and not understanding the market <hes> so it's like everyone in the member of the late nineties tech bust your with everything blue and everyone's like but i have all this stock in cobb uh fifteen gallons of beanie babies we have families arrive because of these bad business decisions when joseph smith junior was born in eighteen oh five and sharon vermont his family was pretty much transient and smith lived in seven different places by the time he was five years old but when smith was just eight he went through an ordeal. I'm actually surprised scholars. Don't talk about more or at least they don't talk about it. In the right light in eighteen twelve typhoid fever her took hold and the northeast and killed sixty four hundred people who in just five months and if you don't know typhoid is one of those developing country illnesses that usually usually caused by shitting in your own water supply. I mean i like chicken in the sink especially when i can't get to the toilet. Why am i gonna clean on now when i hand i'm like strain in a bunch of beginning in all. I think that's how they made. Cincinnati instamatic gillian welch people either drink the tainted water or eat food grown from the tainted water supply and then they get infected with salmonella and those people open become contagious and they can spread typhoid fever to others through just simple human contact okay as far symptoms go typhoid causes fevers as high as two hundred and four painful sores and potentially fatal diarrhea <hes> to be honest with you kinda fun because you get to have all that private time with your phone so you get all the private time with your phone or back in the day when you actually had to read the back shampoo bottles like we had when we were growing naturally upset. I just brought a book in their yeah. You bring a book. I don't care about bringing a book and i always read a book my own bathroom throw but then i brought a book into the airplane bathrooms and we came out people looked wheeling couple of big piece of shit a little switch. How long were you planning on being in there. Ah take my time. Oh my goodness on eighteen twelve when joseph smith was just eight years old he contracted typhoid and he only had the disease for about two two weeks but during that time he developed a sore in his armpit that lasted another two weeks before that sorge lanced which produced about a court of putting alex that's like one of those youtube videos or dr pimple popper when jesse every now and again after that smith got another infection in his left shin and his is an ankle when that sore lasted for another three weeks and that infection got into the bone so literal barber surgeons bored holes into his leg leg bone chipped away the infected pieces they wanted to get rid of the whole leg and they kept negotiating with the barber surgeon who's a- and you're like we know you're excited to take a whole lake but we think maybe we can save is. It's like a take care after like well. Well you know we'd love to just get a little chunk out of there and then they didn't want to give him booze because that was the antiseptic and i'm the aesthetic thought at the time and he didn't wanna give it to him and so they said though the the first character building thing of joseph smith's life was him screaming tonight and like covered in sweat as the fucking barbara shirts and what they do an operation saved saved his life. Maybe i don't know maybe it did. Maybe it didn't and did he. At least get a haircut after fourteen more pieces of bone had to work their way to the surface vest while he healed what this meant was that joseph smith was bedridden for three months and even after that joseph wasn't able to walk on his own for another three years. There's a mini scholars as henry said point to this time and joseph smith's life as a toughening up experience. You know like an ordeal the gave smith a sense a perseverance but think think about it this way i think the what this time really meant was that young joseph smith had nothing to do all day long but sit stare at a wall and live in his own immagination spilled and stories campbell lewis carroll and the i don't know what it is about spending the time along with your imagination. Sometimes it makes you want to have sex with a child it. It shouldn't but i mean we used to all do this. Children not the part that you mentioned with the child but we were imagination. Imaginative kids had all my little imaginary friends because i didn't have those things called tangible human france for a very long time. We grew up isolated in strange places so it's it's good to build immagination yeah but but you remember he is laying in a bed staring at a wall now. Did he have a cap poster up there hanging there. No nothing do i mean probably had some. He had the bible. Maybe e-eh books maybe but most of the time to see this is back when kids to use their imagination. We expect when the kids were stronger and you wouldn't expect to get participation trophies. I always think it's really good that. We let these eight-year-olds no. You don't just win eight euros. We this is the time. I'm taking a stand during this is rowing competition there plenty of authors and artists who suffer from childhood illnesses and they use that time to build a fantastic imagination and dan a talent for storytelling. You tell stories to yourself to keep yourself going fucking nuts. <hes> you know 'cause like i said it's not like smith. Just sit and watch t._v. All day long but none none of those authors use their imaginations and the way that joseph smith would eventually use his and that's what made joseph smith a true successful american. I do wish that that stephen king just started a cult although judging by some of those excerpts from it <hes> child sex may have happened as well. Just the fun world war. Clown is truly the devils or something like that actually man. I'm i'm in it would be fun. Every catcher is a great movie technically. The girl chose to have sex with the boys and that scene. I know i mean it's obviously controversial. I don't wanna talk about the child sex scene and okay sure okay. Cut it from the movie. Marcus is the one who doesn't wanna do research. That's fine reading material will the end of the podcast. Markets has killed henrique drink after joseph's long illness. The family moved to palmira in upstate new york twenty three miles west of rochester. Many of smith's biographers like to paint upstate as a full on frontier at this time in really large parts of upstate. New new york were frontier. I mean i think even brooklyn and queens back then was still mostly farms. Even my dad my dad growing up in staten island. It was all farmland <hes> that's why they used to play tricks at each other and like they used to prank the bus like he i used to eat rubber ball and he'd tie fake raccoon tail to the bottom of it and there's some kind of reading here and he throws the ball in the bus. All the people would run out of the bus screaming. They have a cat toy that does that now that that was not the case in palmira palmira had a population of four thousand five schools seventy six shops and three libraries so it will stories but yet it wasn't the frontier so far because there was a whole thing essentially it we're fucking looking baroque as fuck and and father just left he left. I gotta go find a way for us to make money and sight. I found it. It's the edge of existence and then they went to rochester yes. I think i'm going to invest in this thing. That's called the x._f._l. Better than the n._f._l. Smaller balls it. It was just another bad decision. In the life of the smith family because palmira was in a boom it was in a speculation bubble and and joseph smith senior bought land in palmira at the height of speculation and what he thought was essentially a worthless rock farm most of the land around palmira who's fucking awful as far as farming win and you know the smith family they did try their best to make a living joseph smith's mother lucy. She had a small shop that sold gingerbread root beer and boiled egg. I've loved shitting on my way to work off <music>. I'm sure i can't make it off the subway a bathroom so i just go in my khakis. Gingerbread is very good. I mean honestly all they had to do was get those little sticky. Google is <hes> pop does on some of those rocks. You gotta business. Rock was one of the most successful products of all time in one of the many weird ways you're or sometimes accidentally correct. I'm on purposely correct when it comes pet rocks but sometimes that is also one of the things she sold lucie. Smith sold little decorative men. These little like puppets. These kind of like dolls made of rock children not to rutta rocks that i'm not even accidentally right what you would have said she she sold pet rocks then i would have been accidentally glued googly eyes the things she didn't have. They didn't have michael's in eighteen thirty. No there's a guy named michael to fake googly eyes with the smiths were still crushed under a mountain of debt because they bought worthless land at a high point speculation because when it came business the smiths smith's just they just weren't good at it and they were not bright i contrast though america in general was going through a period of unbridled optimism where anything and everything seemed possible they just built the fucking erie canal they had rerouted nature so americans ron pretty big high horse and again. Let's clarify by some americans because there were large subsets of american people that we're not doing so well. They were dying but also manifest destiny was vaguely racist is to put and also religiously back idea real. That was a thing that was was fueling that optimism as well is that we can go anywhere or needed. If there's a bunch of people there that's our home yeah i agree with everything from your sentence but i will put on my editor cap and just removed the word vaguely manifest destiny was racist serene and with those seemingly endless economic and exploratory possibilities came a parade of new ways to think about religion religion john so long as that religion was rooted in christianity. Yes now during this time. When joe smith was coming of age so many different religious movements minson revivals blazed their way through upstate new york that the region came to be nicknamed the burnt over district and the people that are getting all the attention were not the high falutin uh-huh founding father types the baptists for example boasted that only three of their preachers head college degree. They don't need to read to teach you how to do your alive. They were viewed the upper class that ben franklin and all those guys were like they were like fifty boys with pants up to their knees which is true right. They had the little socks on they. They're funny boots and they like go ooh wigs on and they love the fucking drink these baptists. They weren't doing all these little splinter winter groups. Being ignorant was cool. Anti intellectualism is not new in this country god. No it is it. Was there from the very beginning you no. It's like those high falutin types people up there at boston philadelphia. That's not the real america right the real america's in upstate new york and when i think they were completely correct when i think of high falutin and just totally intellectual. I think boston because every time you're they're they're so smart. They can't even contain it in their head. They've just screaming at you on the street absolutely whenever i wear t shirts shorts above my knee and i can call the f. word in boston pretty much every single time i go. I remember this is where our country was starting to harvard. The place is the home of all the intellectuals in no way they just by. Let's talk about college campus. Well as fawn brodie wrote. The sober preacher trained in the dialectics of the seminary was rare west of the appalachians <music>. <hes> in other words people were just making shit up and others were buying it just so long as that shit was passing familiar. I mean i have no idea what you're talking about. I'm just sitting here drinking mountain dew because i don't know i just want to do the do you like this is actually really good for me and so one guy named isaac bullard in and woodstock vermont he preached free love and communism but he also believed that washing was a sin only wore a bearskin girl which he claimed to have kept unwashed for seven years. Just flip it and make it something you brag about smell. He's the gee-gee allen vermont. There was an lee hu sect was known as the shakers and lee claim to be christ reincarnated and it was falsely rumored at the shakers danced naked castrated their men still fucked constantly somehow and sacrificed their children. Do people always why does this always he's happen and it does happen meaning of mormonism both fairly and unfairly and anything so one group people for and they make a little group and they seem to be having a good time everybody nobody gets really mad at them and says stuff like how they eat their kids and they fuck all the babies and they're they're all doing all this bad shit with a lot of times just kind of isolated <hes> <hes> well. There are a lot of people who don't do anything with their lives. They stay isolated and then over time they become very bitter and they see people having fun and they have to assume that those people are doing something nefarious areas otherwise they've made every bad decision their life to be so unbelievably miserable. I think it's also boredom and storytelling especially in those times. You're bored you. You see this group of people that are isolated. They're weird. You only see little things from the outside. Because of course they only let the insiders see what's really going on and you're boorda's faulk. Walk the fuck. Are you gonna do all day long. You make up stories about the people around you and they have like this. Spacey wide eyed smile of a group of people. They look like they all just got freshly fox. They're on drugs but it's actually just enjoying community. You know what speaking of that how krishna's they're usually here in the summertime and i haven't seen them at all. I think the hare krishnas are on. I think think they're on the downward slope okay. I haven't seen one dancing 'cause normally. They used to be needed girl time. They used to make you dance through the q train. What's very korea knowing another one of these guys out there preaching in upstate new york. You had a joseph dilkes actually joseph dilkes. He was a nearby ohio. Dilkes explore a bright yellow beaver hat and called himself though leatherwood guide honestly all of these guys sound like libertarian presidential candidates like burdens alert garden vermin supreme from vermont vermont vermont is liberal arkansas uh-huh god. Just dilkes keep preached through a series of shouts and horse impersonation. Hey h hey hey god loves yougov. Yougov legal wear shoes what jesus christ is lord. Sir sounds like bond sounds like queen carlotta from desperate living then you had jemima wilkinson she also claimed to be christ after she said she died from fever and came back reincarnated as christ okay. She called herself. The universal friend in proclaimed herself to be genderless also said that she could not die yeah she did. She did died yeah yeah. Her gimmick was that she was supposed to have been able to recite the entire bible. Despite knowing how to read or write and you know all these people they had followers although some had a higher quality of followers and others jemima wilkinson had a follower follower named prophet elijah who would bind his lower belly with a girdle and when it's an upper belly started to swell from the pressure prophet elijah would be he struck with prophetic vision. I'm sitting right now. The top my top belly getting swollen by the tiny shorts tiny shorts okay. I'm up okay. Let me roll back. Let me get some really primo info here. Okay i'm getting. I'm getting a vision he okay the smithfield switch-backs are going to win the super bowl. They're going to have to become a team. I said oh no. It's a minor league triple a. baseball team. It's going to be on the football quality team. You'll see e._s._p._n. Nine as it happened jemima and prophet elijah leader had a falling out and elijah became a justice of the peace for the sole purpose of charging jemima with blasphemy but then he was very disappointed to learn that blasphemy was not illegal in america so funny yeah but see this one eighty when it came to jemima and elijah at this was fairly typical in these sorts of communities see when people are converted by upstart revivals and gimmicks it tends not to stick wendy's did that italian burger. Oh i remember that yeah yeah sure people will be stricken by the jerks which was when the heads and limbs would snap and contorted or they'd be stricken by the barks six were they would crawl on all fours and act like a dog but for a lot of americans. This is like a fun afternoon you ever get a you ever get in case of a bunch of businesses one star on yelp for no reason. I'm never rated anything other than five stars. Yeah why would you i. I don't know i just thought you have to be a broken person to go to the internet to give it one star. Just it's putting your age into a screaming a wall yeah. We'll one preacher lamented lamented that most of the churches founded on revivals. They barely lasted three months like he'd come through like yet. There's a revival. The church would be full. Everyone would be full of energy jesus jesus christ comeback three months later fuck and nobody no one not knowing that all and even i mean the leatherwood god he was eventually arrested for fraud but then he was released east because in the words of the judge quote it was not a crime to be a god. Hey okay. That's very cool. Cool judge absolutely that is true. What can you do because he's just looking at. This man covered in grime with pot in his head and he's like well. You know if you somehow got people out to your farm just just to hang out with you. Who would work buddy quick aside what had happened with the leatherwood god is that he would bring his followers out to the river and it would appear here is it the leatherwood god was walking on water but what happens whether god had gone out the night before and input a bunch of big rocks in the river honestly just under the surfaced and then he appeared as if he was walking on water but then a couple of teenagers went out and looked actually looked in the river and was like wait a minute sir d'oeuvres. Yes sir am walking rugs now. Those are our the parlor tricks that led to every religion are just they're so obvious yeah and says the things that the leatherwood god was not asking for money or anything he was in show business. Put on an act and people were buying it for a little while but yeah he's thinking oh you can walk on water but can you swim in sand. That's the question i would be much more impressed if someone could like like a tremor through water but the scrooge mcduck utah women through sand that is more difficult than walking on water interesting perspective. Thank you sometimes simple man. He comes up with with an allegorical story that we all can learn technically typically. That's all these people are but in the middle all this shit was a young joseph smith who was at the very least absorbing everything going on around him if not actively taking mental notes on what worked on his fellow man and what didn't joseph smith i would put him somewhere between paul dano from there will be blood and steve steve martin right meeting because martin as a guy well yes and it comedian when he talks about view readers book born standing up he talks about how he intellectually look at the field of standup and you saw a gap where he was like. There's a lot of political comedy and all that stuff going. It's like someone needs to be silly. I'm gonna place myself right in the avenue or a need to be. I'm going to learn how to do this style of comedy and i'm going to be very very successful. Joseph smith was a really good quarterback for religion and he moved to field and he saw where the where he needed to go when he saw where some dudes fucked up and some guys would like the ones that actually made it for the guys that were making money around him and he put put himself right in it as a little boy he understood that is why i've always said i am the steve martin of this podcast when he said it. I just did it now. Taking founded founded gap and filled it. Take it easy leaders and yes joseph. Smith is a cult leader. You'll remember from our jonestown series. Jim jones began studying the differences between christian sects in his hometown of lynn indiana when he was about five years old. Remember jim jones would go from church. Urge to church church looking and asking questions looking how what we're all the differences in how do people react to all the shifts so much potential to be good yeah and these men they have some sort of inborn fascination with an understanding of both religion and belief they meditate upon how people react to these things and they later use that understanding to manipulate those who are apt to listen no. We're not saying that men like jim jones joseph smith or l ron hubbard wanted specifically be called leaders when they grew up but it does seem seem like it was the job. Each of them was born to have m. L. ron hubbard is the he had the body of a god and he had the mind of objects. Ho what a sweet little chest it's not he was a big old teeth and he was built for it was built to be a prophet joseph smith again. There's just something about that concept up at somewhere between priest standup politician where they have this imb built in ability and need because sousse smith was also born with a chip on a shoulder because the family always talked about how they used to have money in the user and like we are better than this. We're better than this struggling farm life. One one of us and these are talking the whole family. One of us has meant he could there were eleven of them. He had ten siblings. I'm going to add another profession that starts with a p. Priest st- staying up at the start with the peace corps politician a professional wrestler's. I was watching the interview with stone cold steve austin he was on hot wings or hot ones which is a great show chicken wings and questions and he was saying if you're not you're not a good professional wrestler unless you're just gauging the crowd. You just got to react to the crowd. You've got to you. You have to listen to the crowd physically very do yeah well. Here's the thing about joe smith although the mormons liked to paint smith's teenage years is being full of ruminations about the problems with the christian church. Joe smith was more just a likable lazy. Fuck who had the reputation of liar came out with the get the gab he dressed a little fancier than the other the kids he kind of had this weird thing where you put like a swerve to him he was kind of it was super funny and he was good looking to to be fair. I mean people would think your ally or if you're like women should vote to this guy's a liar like if you brought up certain scientific fact you're like oh. He was a straight up liar as in he he told falsehoods saying that he knew certain things did certain things when he didn't know those or didn't do those around. Ask him izzy brown ski fashion. Sometimes it's more fun and funny way and actually more effective way of telling a story by adding little exaggerations fabrications into the story and then sometime in that fiction. Is there not more truth. No not because that means i have to coup wrecked you. It reminds me of that author. What was it a thousand little little pieces. Yes where he went on oprah and then she's like very mad at him. After it turns out it was all a lie well. The reason why the mormon church has the view of joseph smith as you know a kid who was thinking about religion ruminating about religion is that they believe that joseph smith had his first prophetic vision at the age of fourteen eighteen or at the age of sixteen depending on which draft of joseph story you go with okay that said mormon mythology than an early eighteen twenty joe smith decided to pray for the first time but since the log cabin in which he lived was occupied by his ten siblings and his parents the woods you decided where a better place for prayer they were a better place for fucking everything makes sense and it's joseph smith was praying. He said that a pillar of light came down from the sky and through that that light walked both god and jesus. I do number one and number. Two wow and god told joseph that all the creeds of men were an abomination in god's sight. I do love the way the run down the vision because they said it's just the payroll or of light showed up one turns jesus and then god was kind of hazy thing turn into a man with a long beard and then he just pointed jesus and jesus just starts talking. Jim just like him nodding and shit. It's fucking. Jesus talked yeah yeah like when steven tyler. Let's basing he's doing it. Let them fucking lay down awesome book and your last dude. If you don't follow steven tyler on instagram you all must follow old rockers on instagram. If you want the good part of the internet well joseph smith asked god which church was the right one to join and god said not a single one got it right. Joseph was to join no church at all as far as i can tell after that god just kind of fucked off back to heaven yeah tell you what joe it's been fun but i gotta go. Invent this thing called eight. Let's not do that god. I kinda got it. You want to do it because challenge makes people whore near. I don't know i wish you would joseph later claimed that he told people about this vision specifically the local methodist preacher he wasn't shy about telling people that he saw jesus christ christ and god because at that time visions of jesus christ and god. We're talking everywhere in upstate new york. They were also reported. Yeah they were all reported in the local press and before we judge and say like oh wow that's really dumb. What's going to happen the next time someone sees the virgin mary and a fucking stain every local news station is going to be out that shit's going to be on c._n._n. Then we still do this shit oh absolutely jesus in dogs butthole. I think was the most recent reincarnation of christ but it was a big deal because they said the difference is because he talked to god like it wasn't just the angel to he talked to the main main because joseph this whole thing with came from his parents as being like i could learn more about life from taking a bible being alone in the woods for an hour then i can from any one of these worldly books to go out there and he was immediately a fucking john. Mccain maverick well thing is that fawn brodie poured through the local newspapers at that time 'cause fawn brodie was like an old school researcher. I mean us like you. Some people say like oh. You're researched. We just google shit and we read books so she was looking at microfiche. This is before my coffee. Oh i don't think there was a world before microfiche. Femme brody was looking through through boxes archives of newspapers like she. She was doing like old school on the ground research but fawn brodie couldn't find a a width of joseph's vision. Oh spite finding all kinds of reports of visions around that time mormon leaders say that's because his vision had an an anti establishment message fucking punk do okay very cool. There were plenty of other dudes at that same time in that same place who had the exact same some type of vision. One of these guys was named acer wild an a._c._o. Claimed that god said pretty much the same thing to him as also said said the god actually told him a lot of other stuff but god had also forbade him from telling people about it for free yeah more that smart and and if you wanna know about it aco would soon publish a pamphlet relating all of god's new revelations and do time guess what i'm going to sell it to you. Cheap bro grow up small wilding smick sure you like and subscribe because we got that book publishing. It's from jesus christ and he's going to tell you how to play basketball. Ooh i want during that period. It seems like joseph smith was a lot less interested in what the church is doing. It was actually much more interested in treasure treasure hunting which was at that time called money digging which we would now call grave robbing. I mean that seems teams man. When you say like grave robbing that sounds bad like very well genus but honestly that's where people were getting buried with all of their cash with all their treasure so you gotta get it. What do you mean you gotta get very funny way. Life kid admittedly think that dead people in their caskets with their heirlooms are like little banks and withdraw from it ain't doing any good next record. That's all. I'm saying that i could go to greenwood cemetery not anymore more right now. You could go right now legally fine if i dug up a corpse somebody's nanna permission by their granddaughter yes. I think everything's everything's fine as long as you don't get caught everything everything. If you don't get caught it doesn't exist the crime the catch but money digging was both that was like seventy five percent of it and then also was like time there were a lot of like indigenous people artifacts left behind all that kind of shit where they would just go dig and a lot of i don't even like you would get paid to go and search for treasures that you might just be making up that they exist but you will get you. Will we'll get haunted. I'm not saying he won't get haunted but <hes> well doses. Smith was none too keen on becoming a farmer and seeing how and you know he sat there and watched how hard his dad had to to work on their fucking rock farm just to get a tiny bit of profit so joseph decided he get in on the new treasure hunting fad that was getting more and more popular. Oh it's very interesting how you became a podcast castro. Mr markets parks is your father. I have been in broadcasting for almost twenty years. There were so old. We've got a very sweet letter from from up from a listener the other day letter from a listener out in college station. Thank you very much for writing letters very sweet and she said she said oh. I'm a twenty one year old college student no. She's an eighteen year old and she i was like i just can't believe i get my entertainment from three middle aged men and it was six guards up thirty eight. You're supposed to die seventy six. I think middle age forty five that's not or i'll be thirty nine and holding for a while. If you know what i mean yeah well at that time in western new york what they called money digging was actually a pretty lucrative business which owed mostly to the the fact that western new york was covered with the burial mounds of the indigenous peoples of america horrible and although one might argue that this isn't all that different from certain branches of archaeology archaeology at least the archaeologist makes some pretensions toward a quest for knowledge quest for history and they have little la paintbrushes. Oh yeah that's what makes it different. Remember remember also at the time. The digital people were viewed as little above animals yet so they do not hold any of their lands to be sacred so they was just there for the taking and i actually had a chance chance to interview barbara beset. She's a native american congresswoman out of montana on this week's ebeling its top and we get into indigenous people and the struggles that they still go through so give that a listen nice well in the case of joseph smith and his ilk it was nothing more than digging up mass graves and sifting through dozens of corpses to find stone and copper artifacts and in some cases a little a little bit of silver all for the purposes of profit and it just happened that within twelve miles of the smith farm there were no less than eight of these burial mounds well in those burial mounds joe smith saw a way out of rock farming and of course joseph smith was not the only one a whole cottage industry sprung up around on treasure hunting at the time with the best treasure hunters including a certain air of magic and mysticism. Now it started as i think that it starts both as just straight up traditional folk metric <hes> which is been a part of our society since the beginning of the beginning of our culture we have been into some level of either ritual mixed with the improved rituals eventually like realizing i can add like twists to this. Sometimes this magic does work. Sometimes it does not sometimes it is just for show sometimes just for sale but it's been around forever and what will eventually these are the types of things that would coalesce into eventually become known known as right and left hand path match. These guys are doing the very beginnings of it which is very similar to the way that anton levay also did magic or it's straight up halfway showmanship salesmanship and actual belief systems that they use that they say this will help us find money in the ground and i think that was the philosophy rodney dangerfield used when he was still selling vacuums door to door showmanship. It's all about that but what depressing time in many ways for our country we we forget how fortunate in many ways we are to be bored in this era because a step up from his profession from the profession of a rock farming is grave digging yeah so he was like i'm moving on up to the graves. Did they had made the proper. They'd made the proper decisions about where to move. They actually had went to the frontier. There was money to be made. If maybe suspended like went to school he could have found another trade. He could have done all these things. I think grave robbing was a choice because it was easy and joseph. Smith was is a natural born conman. You had to be a con man in order to be good at the job. Yeah sure you know what are the best treasure hunters. At the time. In palmira new york was a vagabond bound fortune teller whom we only know as walters this suite two left shoes and walter styled himself as an actual wizard roaming around upstate new york with the sole purpose of finding buried treasure cool oftentimes a farmer would pay walters three dollars dollars a day to find treasure on the farmer's land and this guy showed up he had all the march he had crystals he had mineral rods he had stuffed toads roads and all these things were drawn to help them find buried treasure on native st with the secret stuff told his about golden now jump jump in. They're jumping. I'm so glad to see you back from the afterlife. It's gold in the afterlife talk. Where's the goal that jumper. Where'd you go out. All right excellent. Sir alters even had what he claimed was an ancient indian record but described the locations of hidden treasures in a strange tung that only walters could read and walters would read this allow to follow all this shit written out these guys who'd and they odds oh how exotic never ever heard anything like it but then a newspaper editor hurt walters reading and the reporter quickly figured out walters he was just reading latin. It was an an old version of cicero's oration honestly. If you want to demystify anyone just think of them with with a case of the runs like jeff daniels <music>. I'm dumber just remember. They all at some point grabbed their stomach flu. I definitely always think about that. When i see the sports illustrated shoots with supermodel also know that they're all like super sexy out there but i know that most of the time they're just getting fucking crazy diarrhea but when walters left left palmira the mantle of local treasure hunter was taken up by none other than joseph smith and he just like walters had a sense of ceremony in theater when it came to treasure hunting because he had to sell it. I wish i could have been flying the wall in this scenario because there's so many fucking characters and joseph smith watched an old school con me and do his job rob and he is like with just monoploy i can go out there and do the same thing he does but better because i'm young and i got these new pants lungs using teen years old around this okay jake smith told one neighbor that a chest of golden watches was hidden somewhere on land and in order to find it they had to stick a bunch of stakes into the ground and march around those steaks with with a sword drawn to quote guard any assault which his satanic majesty might be disposed to make it straight up magic straight of a magic ritual just brought me into a really dark memory of when i was at g. n._f._c. good news fellowship church school in third grade. They were building a new school so we all made wooden. Swords put scripture on it and then for one hour a day. Hey we would walk around chanting we were i think the i forget the name the full a._c._o.'s whatever the hell the name of this weird tribe they would do it in the bible and it's like it was the exact accent thing don't and that was nineteen ninety one this right hand path magic disgusted now of course it's not the way that i should have been learning is what i'm saying like science. I would've helped <hes> now of course they found no watches but that didn't stop smith from telling another neighbor that he had some money buried somewhere on its hall and the location could only only be revealed through ritual and this case smith claimed that they could find the treasure only if they cut the throat of a black sheep and let it around in a circle gold while it bled to death which would appease evil spirit guarding the treasure that won't lead to just an immense amount of curse. Oh dude you get all the blood out of it and then you have money was it turned out. The farmer had enough sheep where he could just kind of let one go to satisfy his curiosity because the farmers like yeah. I right yep leads. Let you know what let's just see. You do it but they were. This is all boredom yeah. We're like all right. It's all boarded yeah. Let's see yeah i could see. This is the one cupid keeps was trying to nip might dick when i'm out there trying to trying to make gave in with its sultry form or whatever it is but i'll tell you what you get the hell out of here because tempted uh-huh today's last podcast on the left is also brought to you by calm. Are you struggling to sleep these days. You're not alone one in three u._s. Adults don't don't get enough sleep and if you're not sleeping enough it can affect your cognitive functions during the day like learning problem solving and decision making and that's why we're partnering with com- the number one app for sleep sleep deficiency does serious damage not just to your brain but your body as well. 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Simply safe has a huge deal going on right now. Go to simplisafe dot com home slash left and get free shipping and money back guarantee that simplisafe dot com slash left today simplisafe dot com slash left the way with smith called farmer that some mistake had been made during the bleeding and the location of the treasure remained unclear on the pharmacist like yeah okay honestly i think about the beaches of florida with everyone with their metal detectors but just going with sheep dinner believe all just grabbing them by the by their back legs isn't just walk in the bleeding cheap nothing today. We're really joseph's money. Digging career really got off the ground when he started using what is known as a sayer stone because they were really only so many graves to rob and the business had to expand somehow honestly. I'm still somewhat hazy on how seer your stones were not. I i imagined that it was a stone with a hole in the middle and when you look through the hall you see whatever it is that you're supposed to see well. There's many types of seer stones a lot of times. It's like you can use what they ended up saying that. Joseph did use a solid rock. That's a shiny shiny rock or two piece of courts and a lot of people using the bible a lot of times they talk about how many people use a glass of water or a glass of wine clear glass that they could see through it but the sears stone is. I'm not gonna say a fraud but i'm gonna say you're supposed to. It's something you choose your adventure with how i use it. This year stone tells you use marcus kaleidoscope. It's a crystal ball essentially stared eventually the reflections reveal whatever it is that that you're looking for as interested like everyone has their own method. They have their own way for us. Mysterious dump and joseph's wave using the seeing stone and by the way this is official this next part this official official mormon history because joseph did eventually use the seeing stone for other purposes his method was to drop the stone and a white stovepipe pat and then show his face in the hat whole walk out all the light and then he'd see what needed to be seen and the darkness. It's like one of those old when they would show like scantily clad scantily clad ladies would show their knickers off those. There's a great in san francisco one of the cool. Things is the old school arcade g._m. Your face into it just realized that that used to be a porno boot. Just is like really getting into it. Tells lincoln used to call it. Stovepipe he'd have a woman sticker face into one of his hands right and ben forward and then when he made love to her. He could pretend that she was a man. Oh interesting all the later joseph would use this technique to quote unquote translate translate the book of mormon which will cover an episode to back then smith was using stones to see ghosts infernal spirits and mountains of gold golden silver cool but not everyone palmira saw the smiths in a positive light for their money digging endeavors. It was not the most respectable job in the world in eighteen twenty twenty four joseph's brother alvin died of an overdose of calomel which was purgatory made of chlorine and mercury. Oh my this. He's just drink anything yeah now by this time. Joseph's father had also gone all in on the money digging game because even his father had been convinced that joseph this is smith had these magical powers in the smith said reputations as grave robbers and frauds okay so after alvin died. The townsfolk decided to play a little prank doc starting a rumor that someone had exumed alvin body. Oh you see how you feel when someone digs up your family and goes looks for f- looks for treasurer in your fucking son's un-sponsored jokes on them. We buried him next to a bunch of duke as the rumor picked up so much steam that the smiths actually started arctic believing it they couldn't get it out of their head. Eventually they dug up alvin grave to make sure his body was still there and alvin was just like thank god. You guys came. Hey been alive this entire time chlorine really work because you know what's in there th- stuffy nose and sure enough the body was there no one had dug up alvin grave and the reason why we know about this whole episode is because after they did that joseph smith's father actually spent money to buy an ad in the local newspaper ran it for a full week just just to tell the whole town. What a bunch of high assholes they were. I love this this nerdy form of fighting. This pre internet trolling. It's so great. He posted it to his facebook wall. You get your so big rumors. Roy gyi a man and dig up my own son this week. He can cross a line but if you are the townsfolk you're like it was around this time that joe smith supposedly had another vision mormons claim that on september twenty first eighteen twenty three joseph smith was visited for the very first time by an angel named moroni nine moroni morlan. I only tonight the maroney aronie. I mean angel. What do you want spaghetti ravioli carbon for america being hey angel of pasta rhetoric they are this is obviously this is now the core of mormon belief yet okay now. What would we do know that. None of this shit was talking about untold. Joseph smith wrote his autobiography in nineteen thirty eight. None of this was actually set none of these dates who were set so recent man so reason now the story goes that joseph was praying after the rest of his family had gone to sleep when suddenly the room grew as bright as daylight and a person appeared before him floating in the air dawn some some garlic bread good. I don't know what it is but in here i feel like family day. It's funny. It's like a garden filled with beckel. A little things like olives olive garden retold this story years later he took a full paragraph going on and on about how the angel war only robe and was fully naked underneath the road quote was open so that i could z. into his bosom at your eyes appear michael foale dates vein is to suggest or just you like. Is your an angel or a hollywood producer. What's we'll see what seat you sit in your. I'm saying they're saying it's like my lap could be seen we know the being identified himself as the angel moroni i and moroni had been sent by god with a task offer joseph maroni spoke of a book buried in the woods that was written on golden plates and these golden plates gave an account of the former inhabitants of of america and those plates toll the source from which these people sprang furthermore morona claimed this book contains the everlasting gospel as delivered by jesus christ to the ancient inhabitants of america lost these last eighteen hundred years but morona ronan told joseph not to worry because with these plates were two seer stones called rim anthem winced joseph could use to translate translate the book which would eventually come to be known as the book of mall man. Oh my dearest marrone. I i don't mean to question authority. Take any way shape or form but maybe they could have been written in english nano but you don't get through a phone like translation translation being which is like old saying you can hide it. Whatever it says for everybody that's incredibly smart and good scam around good scout and another the thing that maroni told joseph was that joseph was to never ever ever under any circumstances. Show the the plates to anyone. Oh ever injuries do as he shall live because if he did it would negate that whole blind faith thing god is so big on well sources do say and joseph went on to say is that if a person that it was not allowed to look upon the plates looked upon them bear they would die by essentially they would explode. He'll have episode of road show would explode and so we'll see later on when he has the whatever these are wrapped in a sheet everywhere and his wife keeps trying to like look at him looking at me like you sure. Are you sure you want your brain to explode and that went on to become the movie scanners and after marrone. I made this proclamation cla mation. He ascended to the heavens but it's joseph joseph play. They're contemplating what had just happened. Maroney appeared again and repeated everything just just said and then he left again and he came back and did a joey what's going on. You're going to tell you you good good. I could have more breadsticks and supllies. I heard the unlimited and i am not fully limited yet a against policy necessarily bring multiple servings at it time but look as you your guy you guys. You're always an angel to me. Morona also added a warning that satan would try to tempt joseph to sell the plates waits for a hefty sum but joseph had no other place in this tale but to glorify god. You're not to sell these golden plates and the next night marrone. I came him again until joseph. Hey you should probably tell your dad what's going on here. Okay let your dad in on all this. Joseph told his father his father encouraged joseph joseph to go out to the wilderness and take a look see at these plates also in in the <hes> in biblical terms and in terms that the they're the coveting then there's not made unless something is done thrice yes so he has to come three times and that's how he knew knew for a fact this man this this entity was sent <unk> by godman india's was for real joseph went to the spot where he was told the plates would be in joseph started digging and he soon hit upon a stone box inside hi that box where the plates the rim enthusiasm and a the breastplate of an ancient american now what's fun. Is that like rough stone rolling <hes> they talk a little bit amount in no-man's history but no one really talks about the fact that before the all of this story was created. He asked to do to make a box for him and he asked people how do people go about digging through these mounts because he knew people were finding shit in the mountains right and they were so and he would find on your things every once in a while because mostly his game was to con people you may run and his job was to essentially his job was just to search for treasure and sometimes find find trash so he's just a producer of storage wars. He planted everything i mean. Technically you know joseph smith that was kind of entertainment at the time. Yeah your board is shit and so you pay fucking treasure hunter three dollars a day to come. Tell you a bunch of stories. Take you around your land is your land is worthless because that's the other thing too is the people he's also fucking over. He's fucking people out of money. People who don't have money because these are poor farmers who bought this worthless land at these high. Hi prices and they're like fuck. Maybe there's treasure this elastic thing. Maybe there's treasure on this land so joseph smith is also taking advantage of people playing on desperate desperate the people in desperate times now the story goes that the angel forbade joseph from taking the plates for a period of about four years because joseph had to go through a purification in process before he could overcome his natural greedy impulse. Did you sell the damn things but he was like going out and checking them out like donut to the woods. Check them out coming home not going home to be pure arch. I remember this joey. You've got four years this strip as much coffees. We can just do a couple sexy. Dance got a really purify out. Take some of this cod liver oil l. Make sure every should i take counts kado. My parents had a big love for god. <hes> fish oil don't know why but when joseph smith autobiography joseph doesn't really talk about the years eighteen twenty three to eighteen twenty seven most likely the reason why joseph didn't write about those years was because he spent those those four years fucking gullible farmers out of money under the guise of treasure hunting laws when he was biggest in treasure hunting. That's when he started going regional so he's just sitting in their writing is like you'll. Let's do a yada yada yada yada yada here. We'll also this time. He's hanging out with maroney inside his daddy going down to the mountains having a good time he's building this legend as he goes through slowly but surely adding to it mentioning stuff showing more and more people his ability to sky and see the future and so his con game was just getting strong. He went to college for one of those money. Digging expeditions nations in particular involved an elderly farmer named joe ziya stowell and josaia asked joseph to come south to look for a last silver mine in the susquehanna esquerre nevada because i just had it when i just had it your turn around and i lost the whole entire silver mind would love for an old man named joe ziya to come. Let's go for the law still reminded mehanna van. If someone that kicked down our door with an i patch and told us that we would all stop recording immediately and just go do it boys. Our destiny is here. Let's go treasure so so they went down to harmony pennsylvania and boarded with a man named isaac hale who at first isaac hale was into it he helped finance the experts expedition but is a cal pretty he soon saw through joseph smith bullshit and got disillusioned with the whole thing but this chapter of joseph smith life is really only important for the inclusion of <unk> isaac hale's daughter emma hale who would become joseph smith's wife or at least his first wife okay now i i emma scorned joseph as a quote careless young mass careless than away hate him a heated style them and she thought he was quote very sauce very solid. Ooh means cap slit. The it just means a man who's hat is slightly to the left new means. He likes to eat as suicide but encouraged by the old coot. Joe ziya joseph kept courting emma eventually joseph one emma's heart dude because because she couldn't stand all the dude she was around and joseph smith blew her mind it was the first time she met a person that was charming and so he role in and he's a flim flam a man at the height of his young powers would become the pious because the that's when now he's in more at his trickster phase whereas you would slowly only gradually truly turn to paul dano the quiet unassuming profit that only know who's burdened by his truths at that time he meets she needs is young dude. Who's fucking full of vinegar pulled in your m._c._m. Your man crush monday. I know of that because that's what it is. It's this from there. There will be more him like it's all about how like it's all a bird yeah yeah and you know he was. He was riding hi at this point but he took it a little bit too far down there and before he could get married to emma. Joseph was arrested for the first but certainly not the last time <hes> for being a disorderly person and an imposter and i get arrested for that. I really really afraid to become a treasure hunter and start telling people that you could defined treasurer on their land. They pay you for that. Then yes you could honestly if henry moves out to the mid west he would because when we were on our midwest tour which was amazing amazing for some reason you aggravated everyone and it was a big fan. No failed just random people. Were just like looking at you like you're not from here and saw me. You know i was being good. I was really good fine reaction. Now it happens. That's why i'm never going back to texas because that's the reaction people have me in texas well. We'll be going back to texas fairly soon. That's why i'm never going to live in texas. We're definitely going to be going back and do it shows in texas taxes but that's why i don't live it. That's why left texas which you can get arrested just for having imposter syndrome. That's what i'm asking. Ruxton rolling mentioned none of this yet. They don't talk about joseph's time getting arrested or anything like that. They actually say that. Joseph met his wife while he was attending school in southern new york <laughter> quote at school either way the arrest and conviction was enough to scare joseph out of the money digging business. He's like i'm done with it. I'm not doing anymore anymore because pretty soon after that he renounce the practice and eloped with emma much to emma's father's dismissed as a part of the reason why he was allowed to elope to emma because because he said like i'm out no he wasn't allowed because the father yet no at all other had no they just disappeared one night and went back up to in new york and when they returned to pick up some of 'em's furniture in livestock eight months later isaac hale met them in tears and according to the driver that brought augmon joseph pennsylvania is a kale said quote. You have stolen my daughter at mary tyler. I had much rather how followed her hurt. The grave you spent your time and digging for money pretend to see and those tried to deceive people so you approve the marriage. Now we're happy with ooh teach me outer wear a cap so people like <music> according to the driver joseph responded by weeping and acknowledging that he could not now nor could he ever see with a seeing stone and that every pretension he had to seeing treasure or anything else was a total lie was her father. Dr phil just got he's broken but i'll i'll tell you what mr hill after what you told me who i am a changed man. I'm a changed man. That's enough flimflam from me or yeah. That's enough. Chicanery heard joseph smith. That's right. Oh for lead a clean clean pure life just making sweet rock and loved or your daughter could've done without that last part. Show we loyd told joseph told isaac like yes. I've renounced money digging. I am now going to be a farmer legit. I'm legit legit jet <music>. I'm gonna come work. I'm gonna tell them all right and he did indeed give up money digging after that sure what was he really gonna. Come fucking farmer because that sort of life life was never going to work for joseph smith and i totally get it just because you're a farmer son doesn't mean you're cut out for farming. Never be a rancher. Henry could never be a cop you. You can never be a truck driver a truck driver brad take that back. Thank you thank you but the problem here is that it's hard to say exactly what joseph decided to become instead some say that he decided to become a storyteller and eventually those stories. I just got out of hand. How does a story just get out of hand like a slinky fallen and this just got out of hand again no fault of my own. It's just out of hand too. It's kind of like dennis nilsen. We're that like all of the killing. The dudes just kind of like one day. I was just like doing it all the time and not not stop doing it not stop lying on people and then the next thing you know i'm in charge of an entire religion. This is not a hand. This is out of hand others claim that joe smith decided to be an even bigger charlotte than than he was before and he started weaving stories of increasing complexity in order to manipulate people into giving their money their land and eventually their wives under the guise of religion <hes> but if you listen to the mormons it's at this point but the revelations that joseph smith had experienced experienced years before finally began to bear fruit ooh for on september twenty first eighteen twenty seven moments believe that joseph smith was finally able to bring the golden plates and the key is you can only bring one plate so you just got to get all the biscuits at among it puts him ham like on some software food cheese only out why not even a little bit more softer food because some kind of sheets and a little bit more softer food than that at the top of that that's a great mormon tower food and it was from these golden plates that joseph smith was able to transcribe drive the book of mormon and that's where we'll pick back up for mormonism part to maybe even at the book of mormon. This is greg going to start next week with the book of mormon the story of the two races that war against one another in america know jesus fits into it all right incredibly ornate belief system of mormonism now if you look at that in between the rituals just literally the initiation rituals and all the various things that they talk talk about where we're going to see he stole so much stuff from freemasonry and another world. It's hot it's very very interesting cobbled together through various other places and also just his own improv skills and his own storytelling skills very like interesting. Yeah i mean even the story of the warring races like he took that. It's all taken from somewhere he just improv adds onto you say taken i say inspired by sure no it really there's plenty of authors that are inspired by real life events inspired by folk tales and folk stories and that's what joseph smith dead. Yes absolutely the entire series of stranger. Things is basically inspired by spielberg burke. Every spielberg movie inspired totally stolen influence. Yes all right there. It is mormonism part one super super fascinating. Thank you all so much for listening and we are super excited t._c._u. This week ed we are in atlantic city on friday night bethlehem pennsylvania ania on saturday and porchester on sunday we have because this tour is as henry calls at gallagher too. We have some tickets available. We title remember porchester is thirty five minutes outside of new york city. If you saw the metro and come up i understand no. Is it an exotic locale are we. I'm going to ask so no. We're not i understand well. Just doesn't have the ring that maybe you'd want you but porchester is a city that you get out of what you put noaa. Oh are agents of called. They said good job henry good shopping eleven northern brooklyn. It's about an hour fifteen minutes door to door from from your home to port chester new yorker. We're doing as the capitol theatre skill. If if one of my favorite entertainers performing in port chester i would be the on that train without a doubt. Would i not say i live in new york already yeah but no i would be there so come on out and see us import chester it really we'll be a superfund show and as always it's exciting to see you guys. <hes> we love people. We love all people and honestly you're so sweet. The midwest tour could not have been better saint paul in detroit and milwaukee and thanks for everyone who stayed around in milwaukee for the hail yourself from mir that really meant a lot to be super sweet and the paps feeder was a true dream. Come true was is wonderful and <hes> apparently extremely haunted but with nice go soon also for our u._k. In european we still have some tickets. I believe in bristol crystal and i believe we have tickets left in mentioned who but everything else is pretty much sold out. Yeah i think we might be releasing some tickets here soon soon. They just like just a couple of not very many so go follow us on all the social bullshit will announce announce on twitter instagram when those tickets. It's a released. We also have some more later on the that's where we yes and we have more <hes>. We have more dates upcoming that are about to be really yeah. I think that you guys are going to be very happy with them. Because we're going some places that people have been asking us to go to for many many years and of course we wanted to go to those places but we finally have the opportunity. <hes> thank you all so much. Watch for listening thanks for support and all the shows here on the last podcast. Now work in folks do never forget hail yoursel satan. Yogi magoo's delusional uh <music>. Let's eat a bunch of those golden. Plates consultees like blood. This show is made possible by listeners listeners like you thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listen to go last podcast network dot com uh-huh.

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Joseph Smith's Assassination (1844) w/ Spencer W McBride

This Day In Esoteric Political History

26:04 min | Last month

Joseph Smith's Assassination (1844) w/ Spencer W McBride

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Cbd a connecticut moment to talk a little bit about stress and anxiety. Twenty twenty twenty twenty one. We have all been feeling the stress a fair amount. And i have to say that i have found fields to be really useful especially around sleep to just reduce a bit of that anxiety and get better sleep which i think is the key to everything but it took some experimenting for me to figure out exactly the right amount to us. And when and some people use to reduce anxiety or after workouts and that's one of the cool things about feels they will help you figure out when and how to start using cb so give it a shot. Get it delivered right to your door. Go to feels dot com that's f. e. a. l. s. dot com slash. This day. get fifty percent off your first order once again feels dot com slash this day blow and walk into the state in esoteric little history from radio topa. My name is jody aggregate this day. June twenty-seventh eighteen forty four. Joseph smith the founder and leader of the church of jesus christ latter day saints for com warming. Church is murdered. Along with his brother hiram when a mob three into a jail that they are being held in carthage illinois. that is a notable event for sure. But what makes it especially notable for this podcast at least is that smith was a presidential candidate at the time earlier that spring heat announced that he was running as an independent his first foray into formal politics. One interesting distinction is that smith was the first presidential candidate to be killed in the united states so here to discuss the presidential candidacy and the death of just smith are as always nicole. Hammer of columbia and kelly carter jackson. Hello hello jody. Hey there and our special guests for this episode is spencer. Mcbride associate managing historian of the joseph smith papers project. He's written a number of books and articles about the intersection of mormonism and politics. And guess what he just published a book called. Joseph smith for president suspense a year guy. I'm confident to i hope. So guys so since we are hooking it and talking a little bit about the death of of smith. I wonder if we can start there and i will just start to sketch the picture and then you can actually painted but smith and his followers i had settled in the town of novel illinois which is not too far from carthage. There is a dispute among the community. There smith is taken to jail. A mob comes after him again. That's very rough sketch. Take us to that moment. Yeah so when the mormons came to illinois. They came as religious refugees. It actually been expelled from the state of missouri and this is hard for us to hear even today but a governor of a state ordered that the mormons must be driven from the state or exterminated. And so there's this expulsion of the threat of state sanctioned extermination. The mormons are starting over as refugees on the banks of the mississippi river and they begin building. A new city and the goal is to protect themselves in the city. The habit a local militia grew to have laws would prevent further mob violence and the state of illinois first welcomes them in and this is a very political story in a sense because the two dominant parties of the day the whigs the democrats were very evenly divided in illinois and the thought of both including abraham lincoln and stephen. A douglas was if we win the mormons to our side. They're going to tip the scale one way or the other and so. This is the very hospitable way. The mormons come into illinois but they continue to vote as a bloc so the mormons would vote together and they weren't aligned with one party or the other. They were going to vote for the party. The candidates who would protect their rights and this is how they wielded power as a political minority and it was going okay until they became unpredictable and unreliable net block. Vote if you're going to vote as a bloc you need to vote consistently and predictably as a block and when you can't be relied on in that way it creates problems until the it's after a congressional election in eighteen forty three that a large segment of the illinois populations just they're done and they are from that point on looking for any chance they can have to get rid of joseph smith and the mormons get them out the state and that moment comes in june eighteen forty four. So what is the dispute enough that leads to smith being arrested. Then who is the mob. That comes to assassinate him. And you do use that word. Assassination right yeah and we can alternately say say murder for practicing latter-day saints. They see it as a martyrdom but martyr martyr sas nation. There there used interchangeably so what happens in illinois in june is some descent who does this myth refers to as dissenters members of the church. Who break away from the church Their disenchanted with joseph smith and they start a newspaper because the novel exposure essentially. It's an anti mormon newspaper coming out of the center of them. And they print one. Issue and josie smith as mayor of nabu then goes to the city council and citing blackstone english common law deems the newspaper a public nuisance and then by order the city council be newspapers. Shut down the presses destroyed. The governor gets involved. Joseph smith declares martial law in the city of nabu ultimately joseph smith's amidst to arrest along with his brother hiram and several other individuals implicated in the destruction of the novel exposure but they are also charged with treason for declaring martial law. And this means they can't post bail. They cannot leave the prison and it becomes really clear for most people that that charge trees was meant to keep joseph and hiram smith in jail while everyone else could go because again long before the destruction of this press there were people in illinois that were just waiting for the opportunity to get joseph smith and this provided it for them. Let's us a rich and detailed story because it's in this very understandable. I think story of religious persecution. That's something that we understand from the that we talk about. Us history but then when you dig down into this kind of internet seen war that's breaking out among the mormons and the way the anti mormons able to leverage that tension in order to act out their anti mormon politics is just really fascinating yet. Critics of the mormon see right these actions as anti-democratic but the mormons as a minority. See at the only way we can survive in a democracy that refuses to protect us. And so there's this tension who's the anti-democratic crew is at the anti mormons in illinois or is the mormons and both see the perspective that they see themselves as protecting democracy. But really sometimes we're talking about protecting. Democracy is especially when one group has privilege and power. They're talking about protecting their authority in democracy. They're not really talking about protecting democracy as oh from the mormons respective as a minority group. They're saying it's not really democracy if the minority has no rights so much about this moment Just reminds me of the abolitionist. Because they were Had mob attacks and this is this is really the decade of like mob. The twenties thirties to hide it. The thirties also the forties as well and which fringe groups. Like the abolitionist. Like like mormons are constantly being attacked. Or they're printing presses are constantly being attacked and i wonder how much of this violence that's that's happening is. How much do mormons feel as though they can respond legitimately to to the violence. You know you had mentioned that. Developing like militia groups. But like. what do you do. you don't have any protecting forces. The police is not going to work for them. And that's actually why. Joseph smith enters this presidential campaign he sees as the fundamental problem. The states rights doctrines is when they are expelled from missouri. They go to the white house and meet with president. Martin van buren petition congress. The senate has sent judiciary committee has a hearing decides. The federal government can do nothing. And josie smith is saying there's something wrong with the constitution if one state can expel a minority group from its borders under threat extermination and the federal government says. Their hands are tied because of states' rights and enter joseph smith. That's his big argument. He declared the state's rights doctrines or what feed mops wrong and guard people calling for the bill of rights to apply to the individual states that joseph smith. He's not a great political thinker is not this great constitutional scholar. He his lived experience. Says there's something wrong when states rights allows this persecution. The small violence. The other thing that i found so interesting about smith in the context of this campaign is that he embraces policies that would have been considered radical at the time and i think would be considered quite progressive today The abolition of slavery being one of those Which flows into what kelly was saying. But also things like the closure of prisons. I realize we didn't have a prison industrial complex in the eighteen forties. But you know that is a very different way of thinking about crime and punishment in the eighteen forty s and not everything that he embraced was would be considered progressive today but Policy lines that. I don't think i would have necessarily expected. Yeah i think it surprises a lot of people. Especially you know. Twenty first century america on the latter day saints not all of course but a large majority tend to be very reliable conservative voters and here we have a very progressive in some ways radical reform campaign coming from churches founding prophet amis calling for the paid emancipation of slaves essentially that we will purchase the freedom of all enslaved men women and freedom from the proceeds of sales of western. So it's going to pay demands. A patient was at new but at the scale and with government sponsorship that joseph smith was calling for that was new that was radical closing the prisons penitentiaries were brand new and it was his idea that we can reform criminal convicted. Men women mostly men at this time. with solitary confinement and hard labor and joseph. Smith's not the only one but he's an early voice in. Hey where essentially creating a permanent criminal class were not reforming people. We're we're dooming them to a life of on the margins but kelly there's actually this You talked about abolitionists. And he's mobs in eighteen fifty four the way i closed the book is one of the missouri militiamen that expelled. The mormons in eighteen fifty four is a sitting. Us senator me right of war. Jefferson davis about what they're going to do about the abolitionists who are spilling into missouri. Has we intend to earn. Shoot and hang them. In short we plan to mormon is them and so all of a sudden mormon is becomes a verb for extralegal violence to expel unwanted groups. You know mean. I stand by this the idea that like the moment you take the side of the oppressed or or black people you you put yourself in a position to be harmed or killed like the strain of anti blackness i think is so strong that when people take up opposition to it. They almost always put themselves in harm's way and the the abolitionists were perfect example of how people risk their lives to push these ideals. I think we've painted a interesting picture of his motivations and a little bit of his platform so he's a presidential candidate. There was a candidate. But i don't know if that was really campaign doesn't seem like he's out. They are travelling around doing events. I think he even is quoted saying if it were up to me i would really just stay in illinois and sort of run by militia and protect my community. What is your sense of this as an actual campaign yet so this is at that kind of pivotal moment. Were presidential election. Eeriness changing still unacceptable for candidate to go out and make some speeches but they send their surrogates which they've always done but now candidates are taking a more hands on role with directing their circuits and josie smith has an advantage in eighteen. Forty four that most independent candidates don't have is. He has hundreds of experienced missionaries. Now they're used to going out and preaching religion but he actually sends over four hundred missionaries to go out and campaign. He has his political pamphlet lays out his platform and they carried almost as political track and they have nominating conventions in almost every state And these are kind of interesting stories for instance in boston. Brigham young who would be smith's successor. Leads this political meeting. And there's all these hecklers and the meeting can't go on because the hecklers the police are called and then the meeting breaks down the chaos. The hecklers don't fight with the mormons. The heckler start a brawl with the police. And it's almost quintessential nineteenth century boston. Seen about right maybe twentieth century to nineteenth. But then there's others that are taking this this pamphlet. The calls for the end of slavery to places like tennessee. And they're facing potential mobs. They're not because they're mormon. But because it's illegal to distribute anti-slavery slavery literature and i don't think they recognize that was going to be a problem. They go to new york city and they establish campaign newspaper. Right there on printers row in manhattan. Are you talk about really esoteric. Political sam ran and is have bieber he takes after all all the stuff happens he takes that printing press to california and that same press prince news of gold being discovered in california eighteen. Forty eight probably way. Even more esoteric gave everyone a book idea to follow one across the united states and we use narrowed. That's a great one. I'm just curious. How much of a direct line between smith's candidacy and his assassination. You can draw. I mean if or is it just that this was an incredibly fraught moment. And the assassinations. A symbol of that and the candidacy was also a product of that as well or are they are. They somehow connected. Yes so the asterix all of this. Joseph smith is the first assassinated presidential candidate. He was not killed. As far as i can tell to stop him from becoming president he was never a serious contender and the people who killed him. If the presidential campaign concern them it would be. They saw it. As a sign of unfettered political ambition which joseph smith side as an act of desperation but the causes of the mob storming carthage jail and killing joseph smith they were local in nature and so he is the first assassinated presidential candidate. But the the asterix's he was not assassinated because he was running for president. So let's talk about where we are today Especially as you described. Smith's motivations for getting into politics are those still motivating factors within within the church. Can you draw that threat The church since the turn of the twentieth century and even into the twenty-first maintains a position of neutrality. they are not going to endorse candidates The church is not going to to openly campaign in a partisan nature but reserves. Its right to speak out on what it deems moral issues for instance a more recent example is when President trump issued his travel ban against predominantly muslim countries and also took these really strong stances against immigration of all types of the church actually issued a statement arguing against this type of policy and remembering a time win. Mormons were expelled. And even time beyond joseph smith's leadership decades after his death. There was a mormon immigration man. So there are these moments where the church speaks out on political matters but usually they deem them as having a moral core to them and they tried to do so in his nonpartisan. Always as for members of the church. Bay are encouraged by the church to be politically active. But that's just kind of left to their own wills and whims and we've seen throughout the twentieth. Centuries especially since world war two latter day saints have been in the united states have been one of the most reliably conservative voting box And i think that's still stands. Today you can look at the polls and see yes. They still went for trump but they went for trump less enthusiastically than say white. Evangelical christians right. The numbers are way down trump. Never did he won utah but not impressively. But there's division within the american church membership on matters of politics. And i think it's probably hit a mayes by the two senators from utah Mike lee has gone all in in supporting donald trump. and he's even compared infamously as many. Cad compared donald trump to amending captain. Moroni whose heroic figure from the book of mormon whereas mitt romney has spoken out against donald trump in many instances and tried to be handed the voice of conscience in this whole fray n even passenger such as jeff flake who are themselves latter day saints have spoken out against this. Turn on in the political right. And so yeah. I think you still see latter-day saints definitely tend to be vote more conservatively in the united states. But it's maybe interesting crossroads right now because the way that the The trumpian moment has revealed fractures within the clinical right We're also seeing that within the mormon right if you want to call it that. Yeah i just wanna shout out. Mormon women who in in the nineteen seventies become major grassroots activists especially in western states Really become the the engine of the christian right in those states and become reliable activists reliable voters around. What would be called family. Values issues are social issues so they are consistent with that idea that there's a moral component to these political issues and in the seventies and eighties begin to build alliances with white evangelicals into a certain extent. Catholics as well. Yeah absolutely and you get asked a lot since. I've been working on this book. And since it's been now you know a lotta latter-day saints look to joseph smith's religious teachings almost kind of get a sense of how that should frame their religious beliefs today and people will ask me about that about his political. Thought it's tricky because his policies are very much a product of the eighteen forties. And you can't just say joe's talk this politically. Therefore that's going to cover my political ideology but i think there's an overarching compassion. Joseph smith's political framework in his political thought. Right let's look after marginalized groups. Let's look after groups that are being kind of left. Behind and democracy or disenfranchised or being abused and i think there's something to that they may find a level of compassion and looking out for those on the margins of society. Well that's a great place to end it we really appreciate you. Coming on a spencer. Mcbride the new book is joseph smith for president the prophet the assassins and the fight for american religious freedom Other than buying a book work and people find your work. I'm sometimes active on twitter. You can find me at spencer w mcbride and and spencer w mcbride dot com is my website. Great all right. Well thank you so much for doing this. And nicole hammer tanks to us. Always thank you. Daddy and kelly carter jackson thanks to you. My pleasure act this day esoteric. Political history is a proud member of radio. Tokyo from p. r. x. network of independent listener supported artists owned podcasts. Are researcher and producer. Is jacob feldman. Our producer is brittany brown. You can get in touch with us with any questions or comments or ideas for the show. Mls this they pod at mail dot com or you can find a form at this day. Pod dot com. My name is jody avidan. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you soon before we go. We wanna tell you about a new podcast series from radio. Topa called blind guy travels. It's a part of radio. Topa presents a podcast. That debuts limited run artists own series from new and original voices blank travels is written and hosted by matthew shiffman a twenty three year old college student and musician who is also blind from birth. You'll join matthew. As he experiences a marx brothers comedy creates an online dating profile collaborates with lego to develop instructions for blind builders and prepares for college graduation. And you may just see your own world differently by the end of the series by guy. Travels is an official selection of the twenty twenty one tribeca film festival as part of the festival's first ever podcast lineup. You can find out more. Listen and subscribe at radio. Tokyo presents dot fm.

joseph smith illinois smith josie smith salt institute for documentary kelly carter jackson church of jesus christ latter carthage missouri jody hiram united states nabu blackstone english common hiram smith city council saints prophet amis
Mormonism Pt. 1

The Bluestocking Baptists

1:01:09 hr | 2 years ago

Mormonism Pt. 1

"<music> welcome to the blue stocking king baptists podcast. My name is Hannah Oliver. I'm Esther Faulkner today. We're GONNA be talking about the Church of Jesus. Christ latter-day Saints also commonly known as Mormonism. This will not be an exhaustive presentation is that would be impossible because mormonism is is very complex but we will do our best to give you an organized in basic understanding. We're GONNA cover the history of the church structure of the church in the nature of God. We're going to do a part to that specifically deals with the plan of salvation and we'RE GONNA try to give just the basics so that you feel equipped with knowledge to witness to your Mormon neighbors with the hope that it stirs in you a greater desire to learn more. I've been studying mormonism for about the past five years and I learned something new all the time so this topic you could talk about for hours and hours and hours and always have material so we hope to also do evangelism episodes specific to the Mormon people in the future but for an hour just GonNa cover what it is and what the beliefs are in regards to salvation so we're going to jump in because we have a lot out of ground cover many latter day saints claim to be Christians and even many Christians or confused as to whether or not Mormons are Christians many today think that mormonism is just another denomination under the umbrella of Christianity. We're going to show how mormonism is not Christianity where it varies and why we will not affirm them in the Christian faith we mentioned in our discernment episode how important it is to ask three important questions. Is this the same faith same Jesus Jesus and Same Gospel. We want you to keep this in mind. While you listen and ask for yourself. One does mormonism share the same faith to do. Mormon share the same Jesus or have the correct view on the nature of God three. Do Mormons share the same Gospel if the answer is no to any of these the professor is not a Christian. If you do not know the answers to these questions please listen to our Gospel Episode Trinity Episode Discernment Episode An Labels Episode to help give you some direction okay so to start off our discussion Russian. We're GONNA talk about the origin of mormonism the origin of it can be traced back to what's called the first division accounts therefore I vision accounts these visions were supposedly witnessed two or experienced by the the first prophet self proclaimed Prophet <hes> those four vision accounts are all different varying in different degrees as to what happened and who is there the Mormon church however only recognizes one tend to be absolutely true so we're going to cover that account <hes> that the L._D._S. church recognizes as the most correct but for further research we're going to ads in our show notes the other account so that you can look at those and compare <hes> mm-hmm and also an article by L._D._S. Dot Org that affirms that there are multiple counts that article is interesting because Jessica Palmer the woman who wrote it. She said I decided to read the accounts for myself. I expected to find <unk> added and missing details among the accounts and I did what I didn't expect was that despite the differences the counts all supported each other with every account I read the Holy Ghost testified to my skeptical part that each was true drew together. These accounts created a fuller more miraculous picture of what the first vision was really like instead of disintegrating. My testimony of the first division actually strengthened. I think this is really telling because she admits admits that there are discrepancies but then falls back on her subjective feeling that it does not contradict. Keep that in mind when we read the first vision account okay so we're going to be pulling from the teachings of the President of the Church Joseph Smith Myth we'll be covering information that can be found on pages twenty eight through thirty four. It's important to note that the teachings of the presidents of the church come in several volumes. There are seventeen prophets or presidents so there is a volume for each one <hes> in what they've taught so all of these are published by the Church of Jesus Christ latter-day Saints so this is official doctrine on page twenty eight it tells us that Joseph Smith had become seriously impressed with regard to all important concerns for the welfare of my immortal soul which led me to searching the scriptures believing as I was taught that they contain the word of God. I'M GONNA stop right there. I think it's really interesting that Joseph Smith said that he was he was searching the scriptures <hes> <hes> because it shows us that he was obviously making scripture his standard in the early years what ended up causing a lot of trouble for him was his distress over the many denominations. He couldn't understand why there were so many different <hes> disagreeing wise so many Christians were disagreeing on the non essentials to the Christian faith. His parents were actually Presbyterian and on page twenty nine it tells us that he became partial to the methodists Williams fifteen years old when reading scripture he stumbled upon James One five which tells us if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God. This was the passage of scripture that led Joseph Smith to pray in a secluded location asking for wisdom. It's also a tax that you will often find Mormons using telling you if you'll just pray for wisdom then God will reveal the <hes> the book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ so they take this first out of context so on page thirty one it continues to tell us about the first vision account it says so in accordance with this my determination to ask God I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful clear day early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt to pray vocally having looked around me and finding myself alone I kneel down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God I've scarcely done so when immediately I was seized upon by some sunpower which entirely overcame me and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak sick darkness gathered around me and it seemed in it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction but exerting putting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair abandoned myself to destruction just at that moment of great alarm I saw pillar of light exactly over my head above brightness of the Sun which descended gradually until it fell upon me so smith continues to express exactly what happened so to summarize it without reading all of it Jesus Christ in heavenly father appeared to Joseph in the flesh. This is extremely important to remember two beings appeared to him not one in both had flesh and bone. Even the Scripture teaches us that God is spirit. Smith says one of them speak unto me calling my name instead pointing to the other. This is my beloved son hear him so gleaning from the text we can see that heavenly father's pointing to Jesus Christ in saying listen to him so Joseph than asks these two beings which the sex he should join sex being denominations nominations or church. He told none of them in Jesus says for they are all wrong that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight that those professors were all corrupt so this is the foundation of what what led Joseph Smith to become the Prophet of the restored Gospel the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints his experience with these two beings as he claims it telling him that the Christian churches corrupt or all those who are professors are corrupt so several days later a good methodists fellow had rebuked him and told him his revelation was of the devil and told him special revelation ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age. I actually didn't know this until I read it. In the book. In I was really encouraged. Somebody said something to justify at the time but instead of heeding this rebuke Joseph for countless and other situations as persecution in only confirmed in his own mind that he was right and so he uses this example to encourage other L._D._S. believers to not give into persecution but be strengthened by your face estrogen avenue thoughts about that version count <hes> my thoughts are like if you're really interested in looking at you know reading this for yourself. It does give a lot of insight as to Joseph Smith's upbringing and the the religious climate around him <hes> I I knew whenever I found out about the methodist <hes> I wanna say it was even like a methodist preacher and I don't. I'm not sure I think it was an actual pretre. I don't think it was just a lay person. I was also encouraged that somebody was there to say that the truth the true you say the truth to him <hes> and he still didn't listen <hes> I find it really alarming alarming that supposedly Jesus Christ and God the father supposedly appeared to him and told him basically the church is completely corrupt and all professors are corrupt and it's all of our Orthodox creeds are abomination as in as he's therefore saying that the church was prevailed against and it <hes> Jesus was lying whenever. Ever he said that night even the gates of hell would prevail against the Church and he saying that somehow we corrupted it gaff I not I do that's. That's a big big booboo especially because he you know he obviously saw the scripture did have authority to go to to James to read that but then he's just I mean he even says kind of at the beginning he said as I was taught that it's the word of God so he started he when he started this journey. I guess you could say he was he was genuinely seeking for answer. So it seems the way the L._D._S. church portrays it and I mean he just veers off into this like totally UN Biblical Way to speak essentially to got to actually have a revelation I mean even his I added the portion talks about thick darkness gathering around him and that he I felt like doom and destruction. Were surrounding him into me. I feel like that just gives it away like Joseph Smith. Why do you think that what happened to you was from God when you thought you were going to die in that moment kind of thing wing? It also reminds me a lot of muhammed. Though I don't know a lot about Islam I do know that he had a similar experience. I think it was in a cave where darkness kind of ingold attainment same kind of thing feeling overwhelmed and then all of the sudden Johnnie as this vision that is teaching him things that are totally contrary to what the Bible teaches and then establishing it as basically restored. I don't know how Muhammad Todd it necessarily but I know Joseph says it's a restored Gospel all <hes> I think I think in Islam it's it's the same idea you have one person who receives divine revelation special revelation and in all the message is everything before he was wrong. Here's the truth and it's always completely against scripture like for Islam Islam. His twelve disciples hid the body like Jesus wasn't dead really and completely goes against scripture that said he died and then he Christ rose and then here we have Jesus says that his church would not fallen does assuming they wouldn't fall into apostasy and here's Joe Smith saying that Jesus told him it did and it's like but not even not he is literally saying that there are two physical beings sure teaches that there is only one God so you look at that and immediately you're like Whoa and I do think one of the other vision accounts it was just Jesus Christ I mean I haven't brushed up on that. I only really brushed up on the first vision account for this but I do know that they're all different in. They have extremely way different perceptions. I guess you could say what happened <hes> but so we kind of already covered at how the Church teaches that Joseph Smith restored the gospel not there was a complete apostasy after the apostles died but to kind of back it up with what the church actually says in the teachings of the presidents of the Church Wilfred would drift it states on page four that Jesus Christ established his church during his mortal ministry but the people fell into apostasy soon after his death and resurrection and on page five states after centuries of apostasy the Lord restored the fullness of the Gospel through the Prophet Joseph Smith some things that are I think really important to note. Is that Smith's first vision it is recorded as happening in eighteen twenty so that would mean approximately eighteen hundred years have passed since Jesus Christ has been crucified that means that there's not a single believer from the time that all the apostles died to win. Joseph Smith has this revelation and I mean we kind of already mentioned it but Matthew Sixteen Eighteen says and I tell you you are Peter in on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail L. against it and this is Jesus Christ talking to beat Peter Esther. Do Kinda want to explain that versus a little bit more <hes> so in let me let me get the Bible Roque. No you're good okay so the context of Matthew Sixteen eighteen is whenever Peter Confesses Jesus as Christ and his profession Peter's confession profession of faith so to speak is he says you are the Christ the son of the Living God and Jesus answered to him saying blessed are you Simon Bar Jonah for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father who is in heaven and I tell you you you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall prevail against it and in that what Jesus is saying is upon Peter's profession of faith with what he was proclaiming Jesus is the Christ that was the that was what Christ would be building his church on a century. It's not on Peter. Peter is not but I guess you could say the head of the Christian Church or has some special keys as like the the Catholic church kind of sieges fashion. That's not what he saying all right. It's on it's on what his the faith that he was professing housing like that would not be corrupted. That's what the gates of hell would not prevail against and the Gospel hasn't changed. We have the Bible we have. What's true have thousands of Greek in Hebrew and <hes> Arabic Tacna News your yeah thanks manuscripts and basically we have just as Smith here saying that God didn't do what he said he was going going to do? <unk> couldn't keep this promise almost calling Jesus Aligarh in a sense and I don't remember the exact reference where this is but sanctify them by your word. Your word is truth that the word is reliable. We can trust it it. It's a fraud. The thing is if if it sounds like at the beginning that Joe Smith had the right principle here's taught the right principle that the the word of God was truth and that that's why he went to the Bible that's why he went to James but then after he had this experience with no witnesses it's like he just threw that out and he is like Oh. It's not ultimate because I've had this experience. I've have had this experience and when you look at the experience it's just subjective because you can't. It's like when someone tells you that they have like you can't vision you can't disprove them. Because it's an experience you can only show them what scripture says and I I always say don't let your experience dictate truth because just because you experience something doesn't mean it's true. I mean Look Joseph Smith. I don't doubt that Joseph Smith had an experience. I really do believe he had some kind of spiritual virgil experience but it's not a true enright experience and if we look at every experience whether Mormon or Muhammad or whatever it is people in the Christian Church who said that God spoke to them whatever for it is any kind of new word new special revelation <hes> new thought from God if it goes against scripture which ninety nine percent of the time it either does or it's just vague. We can't let that dictate what we believe is true or false and if you if you look into like some of the like the new age people who come out of that like they participate in like Yoga and they have these experiences and once stay come out of that and they believe the Gospel they look back in there like you know something does happen <hes> but not from God the Bible also tells us that the twelve apostles were the solid foundation of the Church and that Christ was the cornerstone. It kind of makes me think if do L._D._S.. People believe that the foundation was unstable or do they believe that nothing was built upon the foundation. I think it's really interesting because scripture gives no indication that there will be this great apostasy or falling away. Jesus even charged us with the Great Commission to go and make disciples so either Jesus which shortsighted and with only speaking to that time which doesn't doesn't make any sense at all or he's not knowing lying because he's he's charging the apostles with the Great Commission but then there's GonNa be this great apostasy so it's just interesting <hes> Brigham Young also taught in the early Church that there were many divisions in schisms <unk> even during the time of the while the apostles were alive and he uses the text in the Bible somewhere of Apollo's and other safest to kind of kind of justify his his position by saying that the early believers were following teachers but not the Gospel he claims that because they followed men and not God they lost the priesthood in much of their restored Gospel hinges on the priesthood being lost because it's believed that Joseph Smith was given the priesthood keys in so now he has the authority to guess you could say reestablish the church on Earth and the L._D._S. church does teach that now that the gospels have been restored but now nothing will come in prevail against it. <hes> interesting once can't happen again. It can't now because Joseph Smith is the he's the big guy though we have so we have ample evidence like we've already talked about that there has. The True Christian believers since Jesus ascended into Heaven and Joseph Smith is asserting that because there were so many denominations at the whole Christian body was confused in their minds were darkened but they're the same faith same Jesus Same Gospel who has been present throughout all of church history though it's had ups and downs periods of darkness in periods of revival it has never been prevailed against and just dismiss claims are unfounded. I think it's really ludicrous risk to say that there is no believers eighteen hundred years because that means eighteen hundred years where the people are in hell though Mormon Mormon doctrine on salvation is very different than we would understand it and we'll talk about that in the next episode when I hear that I think eighteen hundred years of people in Hell though they believe these people are still given the opportunity to progress to God. It's not an end of the road for for the people who were living during Matt time period but it's not that bad bad of news. No it's not that bad of news because if you just do proxy baptisms and proxy marriages then you're giving there's an opportunity to progress but the Christian belief is obviously if if you die in your sins you go to hell and there's no purgatory. There's no middle ground. There's no going back you're dead and you're dead in your sins and you're not reconcile an that's endgame which is scary to think eighteen hundred years. That's just too much for me. This is a very basic overview of the beginning of the L._D._S. Church and we're GONNA move into what the book of Mormon is yeah so the the book of Mormon is said to be another testament of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith said that the book of Mormon was quote the most correct of any book on Earth and the Keystone of our religion and a man would get nearer to God by abiding in its precepts than any other book and quote so that it really just shows where he he sees the book of Mormon even above the Bible <hes> on September Twenty First Eighteen Twenty three Joseph Smith supposedly saw alight appear in his room while praying on page fifty seven of the teachings of the President Joseph Smith it states a heavenly messenger appeared at his bedside standing in the air wearing a robe of exquisite whiteness. This messenger was Maroney. The last Neophyte Prophet AH centuries earlier had buried the plates upon which the Book of Mormon was written and who had held the keys pretending to the sacred record maroney commanded him to go to a nearby hill and Joe Choir that record when he went to the hill Maroney allowed <unk> out him to see the golden plates in which the book of Mormon was written on but Joseph was told that he would not have possession of the plates for another four years Joseph Smith translated the book of Mormon with something called the seer stone in recent years the church which has written papers to address this. We'll share the resources for further study and a video talking about exactly how he translated the book of Mormon and our ships Joseph Smith claimed that the book of Mormon was written in a language known as reformed reformed Egyptian which is not a real language yeah any I believe it's an Egyptologist will tell you that reformed Egyptian is is not a thing auditor but it's really interesting how he actually translated the book of Mormon he would take this round colored stone and he would put it inside of a hat but the hat around his face so that it was nothing about dark inside the hat and it's it's been said that's where the spiritual tool light shine within the hat and he would see one letter or a figure at a time of what he called reformed Egyptian and he would then say it out loud to his scribe in his scribe would write down what Joseph Smith's on hat. What's interesting about this? Is that so it's explained that the book of Mormon was written on the actual gold plates themselves in reformed Egyptian. What's weird about this is that Joseph Smith never actually looked at the plates he used a hat in a seer stone and never actually engaged with the plates in a video that will share someone had said they went to <hes> a conference of some kind where there were mormon historians he had asked them a question about hats? Like how deep do you think that hat was on to kind of make a point that it was probably very close to his eyes at the time but they had said something that he thought was very telling they said Joseph Smith was not looking at the stone he was looking through it so I guess you could reason that he was looking through the hat at the plates by hi this is I mean this is not this is magic. It's not and I have read in many places that Joseph Smith was a big storyteller and he he was in two folk magic or a cultism. There's different words for it but he was always him and his family were always known for this kind of thing so yeah. The book of Mormon is also your might be wondering unlike what is contained in this Super Special Holy Book that Joseph Smith is says is the most important book <hes> the book is basically about Jesus Christ making an appearance to the people on the American continent in it's kind of their story. I'm who these people were. As far as I understand they were Jews who were living in South America's <hes> I think it said there they were a lost tribe in so it's kind of the battles and the stories of this these people and Marrone I <hes> I believe he was the last prophet in he was the one who wrote down on the golden plates. This account like the count of the Americas of Jesus coming to them in my my opinion from what I know more. The Mormon Book really only contains what I'd call. What is it nineteenth century Christianity? It's there was something else happening. At the the exact same time. There's a Christian denomination called the restoration movement which I've talked in the past and Joseph Smith and the restoration movement have a ton in common specifically on their views of baptism believing that it regenerates person to fe and when you read the Book of Mormon Mend the first time I started doing some perusing reading it I was actually at a restoration movement college and so much of it. I was like you could I is this book of Mormon or is this a restoration movements Bible as they are very similar <hes> and I have read and other places that Joseph Smith had spoken to or how to relationship with Alexander Campbell but I mean that's old information that I can't. I can't verify right now. It's just things that I've heard but so all very interesting things in where the book of Mormon came from what it is and I think it's strange that the church views it so highly because they're important doctrines their doctrines in which their foundation of their faith or on are not from the book of Mormon there in doctrines and covenants and Pearl of great price and their profits teachings. The book of Mormon is really not <hes> you could take the book of Mormon away from the Mormon faith in the Mormon faith could survive. I don't know if view agree with that esther but yeah I've I've heard that from people who've come out of the Mormon Church that you can read that and not come up with half of the the the core. Oh yeah really because there's there's not it's it's basically Orthodox minus their views on baptism in the gospels distorted. I mean it's a distortion of truth. I'm not saying that it's right and it's a fictional story about Jesus going to America as we would assert because of other heretical things that Joseph his espoused. There's no reason for us to trust that it's true but I really don't believe that that anything that the Mormon Church is founded on the book of Mormon to survive because it's so such a small portion though they say it's central. It's just it's fascinating so now we're going to move into how the Mormon <unk> how the Latter Day saints view the Bible <hes> what they're whether attitude towards the Bible is what you know how what is it to them. They accept the King James Bible and some and and some read <hes> Joseph Smith even has a translation. It's not comment like it's not i. I believe that they in their wards in their meetings like they will use the King James Bible. They don't use Joseph Smith's Bible although there are some isn't it. Would you say sex of her like that mormonism than other branches of Mormonism Yeah I. I'm lost the word of what it is but it's like I think one of them has the rights to it and that's why I'm trying to remember what they're called. It's not the F. L._D._S. church. That has the rights. It's the it's Joe Okay so Joseph Smith. This is kind of going off topic but Joseph Smith had a his oldest son. I believe if I remember correctly hit also claimed to be a prophet at the same time that Brigham Young did after Joseph Smith's death because Joseph Smith died prematurely <hes> he was murdered so because there's a smith was murdered and <hes>. He didn't have time to basically say who his successor would be so there was a lot of debate and internal I don't I don't want to call it fights but disagreements about who is supposed to be the next Prophet Joseph Smith Son was is one of them. There are many offshoots of mormonism a ton. There's a lot though as far as I understand correctly his son had the rights to that translation in though their church that that church still exists I think it's called called the Church of Jesus Christ. I'm I'm not one hundred percent. I can't remember what they're called but they have the rights. They are smaller they aren't they don't hold to a lot of the doctrines at the L._D._S.. Church has but they do have the rights to it. That's why I think the L._D._S. church search doesn't use it because they don't do it and also I think I don't. I'm not sure it was finished. I don't think it was. I don't think he had finished. I'm not trying to remember. I don't know I I WANNA say I wanna say I read that. It was unfinished in there. They said they wanted to make sure that they used a completely translated and that's why they stick with the King James version. I have heard that before regardless they usually King James Bible sorry and they are very uncomfortable with any other version so this is kind of another side note but if you ever do evangelism stick to K- J._v. for their sake and here it is easier because then you don't have to to debate over translations. That's something that comes later when they come out of the church but when you're doing evangelism there's nothing wrong with the K._G._B.. Use It as a tool to evangelize <hes> yeah in regards to an errant see <hes> the Mormons believe that what's outlined in the articles of faith at number eight point eight says we believe the Bible to me the word of God as far as it's translated correctly. We also believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God the Mormons have the book of Mormon they also have the pearl of great price doctrines and covenants as well as all the teachings of the presidents of the church in any formal publications by the Church are documents <hes> that the Elliot's body he accepts they also accept Elliott Dot Org as <hes> right and true doctrine as well so they have a number of ways that supposedly God is communicated their Church's Church's teachings to them. It's not just the Bible the Bible is not the cornerstone and they add that as far as it's translated correctly which means to that the King James Version <hes> which that can lead to some issues you you know in the Texas receptors and the ECLECTIC text if you get into that a little bit and start bringing up the the Greek and Hebrew they don't WanNa see that they wanna see the King James version which it's a whole nother story which also this is bad to the book of Mormon. We didn't mention this but the book of Mormon is written in Kings James. Would you say dialect. It's just fascinating because he's saying that it's translated from reformed mm dejection but it's also a southern American Book Yeah Yes Central America or South America that it's supposed to have taken place at South America. I think I think you're right but you would think that it would have been it. Just doesn't make sense. I mean there is even evidence. That Egyptian was spoken in South America so I would say okay gyp Shen. Maybe he means reformed Egyptian but he's real just talking about Egyptian yeah. That's I don't yeah I know I don't know either but we were talking about that. It's like wait a minute. What so much so maybe I could see if if it was like if if the book of Mormon was about like the African continent yeah sure you could make that argument but it's not it's South America so moving on we are back point about their view of the Bible and there other texts that they have I had written a letter to the first presidency in the quorum of twelve back in two thousand sixteen I had asked them what is official doctrine your rolled while I was getting super frustrated because is to Mormon missionaries had refused to acknowledge the King Follett discourse which is determined by Joseph Smith and unfortunately the Church did not fulfil my request by writing me back though I was very specific and I wanted them to tell me they clearly <hes> they did send me some literature and two different Mormon missionaries who told me very strongly became full of discourse is official doctrine and I said okay that's great that two who missionaries disagree who's read like and I was very disappointing because I really wanted evidence like look? This is what the Church says is official doctrine when I was evangelizing and I didn't get that <hes> so this makes talking to Mormons so challenging because not all Mormons believe what the Church teaches not all mormons even know with their church teaches they believe the basics or their cultural mormons or they're young in their faith whatever it may be the Mormon Church has really changed into a very subjective religion my understanding about fifty years ago they were very <hes> objective like if it was taught by the church in any of the scriptures ars or teachings of the president's it was it was final like it had final say they they would be to the point. It almost like remind me of them. I guess they stopped like out. In think. Categorize is the right word but categorizing their members emmers like they were knowledgeable about these things they they could articulate what they believed and I don't necessarily even think that there's a lack of that in the church necessarily because I have been Sunday schools and they do teach speech they walk through the teachings of the president's and they teach out of the prophets literature and things at the Church teaches. My opinion is that the big shift happened with so much being placed on their personal subjective adaptive experience because a Mormon is their religion is very inward. I guess you could say it's it's how how they just know. It's true so I guess it could say the Jeff. Durbin has sending in the past I couldn't find the exact quote but he said something along the lines of you have to convert a Mormon to mormonism before you can convert Negoti Hannity and I do agree with it because like I'm saying the religion is really subjective and even though they claim to submit to the Authority ory of the church they oftentimes trust their personal feelings over their holy scriptures because they'll they'll use the they'll. They'll say the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost they say the Holy Ghost the Holy Ghost has not confirmed that in my heart yet or the Holy Ghost does this mean differently whatever it is. It's what the Holy Ghost is directly told them and even an article with Jessica Palmer she said the spirit confirmed in my heart so she's looking at something and she can clearly tell that there's discrepancies with the first vision accounts ounce and instead of using reason to be like something is off. There are red flags in this. She says the spirit has confirmed in my heart that these are true and so you can't argue at that because now she has made her own personal opinion about these things the standard and if you've ever had a Mormon attempt to proselytize you they normally encourage you to read the book of Mormon impre. If it is true Marone ten four in the book of Mormon says in when he shall receive these things I would exhort you that ye would ask God the eternal father in the name of Christ. If these things are not true in if you shall ask with a sincere heart with real intent having faith in Christ he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost and this verse makes me laugh because it only gives you one possible outcome that the L._D._S. faith is true. You're supposed to ask if it's not true which is kind of confusing because if I ask and I don't get an answer that means not true for asking the answer's yes it does not mean that it's not true but they also will turn it back on you because I've I've told Mormons before well. I've cried about this and scripture tells me it's not true and they'll normally say well. You did not ask with a sincere heart with real antenna facing Christ otherwise you would believe this testimony is from Jesus Christ and it makes it really challenging because you're like okay but scripture says and everything is about your burning of the bosom like I should have they spiritual response to the book of Mormon in when I do I will know that the church is true so I mean if you haven't listened to our what is standard episode again. Go and listen to it because we do explain in depth the difference between subjective or objective in great great detail in this pertains to the burning of the bosom that Mormons on it that that part about the the praying and seeing if it's true and basically saying if you don't it's because you did not pray with a sincere heart real intent. It reminds me of Pentecostals whenever they whenever they say do you want to receive the Holy Spirit or do you WANNA speak in tongues in your say. Oh yes I do and if you don't it's because you're don't have an F._A._A.. Over yeah you don't you're not trying hard enough. It's all your fault. If you just believe us just having a faith the holy manifest this to you in the language is the exact same Indiana I mean being being on. I've been involved in that before and it's it's peer pressure and I've supposedly done that before. It's like how many I mean Mormons just to become you know to be Mormon. You have to have this testimony. In they're gonNA it's peer pressure. That's what it is. I do really believe that Mormons a majority of them. Those who are sincere in their faith really did have a stirring within their soul a real response and I mean you see this in different denominations of Christianity to where there's this emotionalism this emotional response where it's oh Jesus I just love him so much and he just loves me and there's no doctrine behind it. It's just it's like kneeling like Bethel right the new apostolic reformation yet which I've been saying that they have a lot in common nar and mormonism but I get flak for saying that so someday in the future about that <music> but yes so this method of determining truth is just really contrary to what scripture reveals we're told to search the scriptures see if what's contained is true. The Bible is our objective standard instance. Mormonism does teach many doctrines that go against the essentials of the Christian faith we see that their standard is not scripture but it's essentially themselves they claim to have a burning in the bosom like we've already mentioned that confirms the truthfulness if the L._D._S. Church but scripture never encourages us to go inward in pray for feeling or confirmation we are told to read the Bible in except it's teaching objectively early Jeremiah teaches us that the hardest deceptively wicked and we cannot trust a feeling or vision or person who brings a gospel that is contrary to what we have been taught in this is true when we're talking about mormonism and it's true when we're reflecting even in the Christian faith because we have some of this in Christianity collisions is a rebuke to this kind of thing game and even says that if an angel brings a different gospel let him be a curse going back to the first vision. Joseph said that two personages ages came to him with a new revelation. What does Paul say about such thing that we are to reject that message so there's no way that we can accept justice mixed message? Even if we have an experience reading the book of Mormon in feel that it's true the doesn't mean that it's true and we would say it's not so the biggest hurdle is that their faith is highly personal. You cannot convince them that it's wrong because of the the personal experiences that they've supposedly had it's difficult to even convince them with Warren Literature because they know the church is true. <hes> they'll say things like I know. This church is true. I have a testimony of the sturgis true. If you've ever been to a Mormon Ward which is where they gather for Sunday service service. You'll see that they they don't do expository preaching or teaching from the pulpit instead it's various people in the body going up to the front and giving their testimony their testimony that the church is true or that the warmness true it always includes foods things like I know the Church of Jesus Christ latter-day Saints is true because the spirit confirmed it in my heart that is what they preach from the pulpit and that's that's what every Mormons testimony is that it is all the same now. I've never met a Mormon who says that their testimony's anything different than that they've that they've had a spiritual experience in the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost confirmed it <hes> it's a common thing so now we're going to kind of go into we're going to transition and we're going to quickly go through the prophets structure in the L._D._S. church. We're going to give some definitions of words to Kinda help you some Mormon vocabulary yes so if you're ever reading books watching sermons or wanting to learn more you know what you're reading so to start off award. We've kind of already mentioned it but award is the local congregation or the body of believers relievers. It's made up of L._D._S.. Families that live in the area surrounding the Ward Mormon families do not get a choice which ward they will attend. They are assigned the closest one to their residents in. It's commonly a brick building with a white spire. The church services made up of the Lord's supper her which is water and bread and someone in the body speaks on a topic they also have Sunday School Relief Society which is a women's ministry in class for the littles after the main service which if I remember correctly called primary they are very strict <unk> Sagittarians in spend a majority of the day at Church. New members are baptized at the ward as well and essays looking at me because I know she wants an explanation on why they use water why I didn't know that yeah so I can no Gregor's no no groceries. No one so there's I was actually reading him before but I didn't know if I wanted to mention it. Let me grab my doctrines and covenants. Give me a second. Oh it's to my understanding being there. This is something that I've heard but I couldn't find an article about it. This is a long time ago that I heard this. I hit her that <hes> they stopped using wine because people were poisoning it in so they used water. I could not find a source on it though I heard a long time ago so don't quote me on that but that's something that I've heard you might know if this is true or not but I have heard like that. They actually make the bread for it. Is that true. I don't know I couldn't tell you that but doctrines and covenant twenty-seven seven one through two says it matter not what shall eat or what you shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory remembering unto the father my body which was laid down for you in my blood which was shed for the remission of your sin so doctrines and covenants in that in twenty seven one three two teaches that it doesn't matter what you use your water you could use one. You can use grape juice you could use. I guess you could say apple juice mill on mill. It has to do more with our. Are you glorifying God while you're doing it in the sacrament. Their perspective of it is a renewal kind of thing it has a sanctifying effect kind of like a restart when you go through the next week and then I'd also read something something else about <hes> word of wisdom if you're familiar with it we're not going to touch on it but just briefly prohibits the use of alcohol and it does not prohibit the use of wine in the Sacramento so they could use wine. I think it's more traditional at this point that they don't but like I said I have heard in the past that they started using water because the wind was being poisoned and I think they just never really stopped interesting kind of a a mixed bag of opinions there but they do use water out of everything. I said that is the truth. Do you have any thoughts esther move onto the next one. That's just that's just mind blowing to me. I've never heard of somebody doing that like I mean I've heard like you know disputes between people who use mine and who don't who use grape juice who it's like well we're using grape juice. We might as well just be using water or apple juice you know and it's like the Mormons actually use water like I like we said at the beginning you could talk about mormonism for days and days and days and every time every time I engage within anytime I try to learn something new. You're always supposed come across comprising things. I didn't about them. Being the the strict Sagittarians I have. I do notice it. Isn't it like they're at church from like nine to like twelve twelve inch like that's yeah yeah it's like an hour or regular service and then you have Sunday school and then something else what I think I haven't been to award in a long time but my understanding is depending on the size of the Mormon population surrounding area. They might also have different time slots. What are they might just always because it's like the family ward in then it's the singles ward that kind of thing and so it kind of breaks it up a little bit so I think that they're are having service all day and then so that there's room within the church the I mean they have lots of rooms in the building but I don't know if you do they allow kids under the age of eight to do communion? Do they allow that. Did you know I don't see why they wouldn't <hes> I. I WANNA say they dumped because they're baptized. When they're eight yeah the reason the reason why is because because I know that they don't allow them to be baptized until they're eight in say that the church is true but I was wondering about you know communion for them? The Laura Hedo communion yeah. I was wondering about that. I'll google it so just really quick. I did find that in preparation nation for the Sacramento each week. Church members take time to examine their lives and repent of sins they do not need to be perfect in order to partake of the sacrament but they should have a spirit of humility and repentance in their hearts every week they strive to prepare for that sacred ordinance with a broken unharmed contracts spirit C. Three five nine twenty this from Elliot's Dot Org so I guess you can reason church members are church members only those over eight or they the whole body. I'm not really sure but so we're gonNA move on now something to look into. If you're curious so next to talk about the priesthood authority this is the power and authority to act on behalf of God in True Faith introduced faith on page one twenty four it says about the priesthood God gives the priesthood authority to worthy male members burst of the Church so they can act in his name for the salvation of his children. Priesthood holders can be authorized to preach the Gospel administer the ordinances of salvation to govern the Kingdom of God on Earth male members of the church may begin their priesthood service Wrestlemainia reached the age of twelve they began holding the erotic priesthood and they later may qualify to have the Milky Dhec priesthood conferred on them so like we already said earlier the restored Gospel hinges on the priesthood being lost <hes> which they. They claim occurred after the apostles died so we'll post some resources in the show notes to give more clarity on the differences of the two priesthood authorities and when we do evangelism episode we will touch on how to directly refute this because this doctrine is a really big deal. It's not something that you could explain in two minutes. <hes> next we have bishop. Bishop is a spiritual leader of a ward his the pastor in a Christian church however he has not paid any serves alongside two counselors he also does not teach from the Bible at the pulpit. His position is calling at the recommendation of the stake presidency. He is also referred to as the presiding officer <hes>. This is a quote from the teachings of the President of the Church Brigham Young Page one forty that the office of Bishop belongs to the ironic priesthood and holds the authority to administer temporal and spiritual things bishop is also the highest office in the ironic priesthood steak is composed of several wards in the state president is the spiritual leader are and presiding officer of the state like a bishop. He also has two counselors. Hey so next one is temple. The temple is for Temple Worthy Mormons and it is where they perform rituals and ordinances a temple recommend comes from the Bishop and stake president or their counselors marriage ceilings endowment ceremonies baptism for the dead and enjoying the presence of God in the celestial room or all things that take place in the temple new members are not baptized in the temple but can Hindu proxy baptisms for those who are no longer living the temple is completely closed off to the public but this is the side now before a temple is a blessed by the Prophet they do open house in so I've personally had the opportunity to walk through the Arizona Temple the Phoenix Arizona Temple with two missionaries who I actually still keep in contact with <hes>. It's it's incredible. The only thing that I really can say everything is white light dislike this pure clean white gold everywhere dark wood beautiful paintings furnishing that looks like it belongs to the Queen of England. I mean this place is massive. I think we were probably in the temple for two hours and I mean they shuttle you through because there are certain rooms they won't let you go to like you walk. I remember walking past the endowment ceremony room but we didn't actually get to go into it. They don't take you to like the lockers occurs or anything where they change into their from their street clothes into their their garments but it was so Gotti the celestial room I mean it lived up to its name. You feel like you are in heaven. Essentially essentially like it is just beautiful. The ceiling rooms are beautiful. Everything's beautiful so with that to say I don't have any pictures because that's prohibited when you go in there but from what I remember I just remember being awestruck like and there's there's hundreds of temples all over the world and they are expensive temples they are they do not skimp on their temples. We will post a really great article. That's written by L.. D. S. man and he talks about everything in detail so everything from the endowment ceremony to what happens in ceilings all of all of the stuff that happens and it's from an l._B._S.. Perspective so it gives you more of a clear picture actor perspective active yeah and I also considering writing an article on how polygamy is still practiced in the church in a spiritual sense. I know lots of people on his yet in the Mormon Church how people always want that that question touched etched on like are Mormons. Do they still practice polygamy to me. I feel like it's kind of a silly topic to bring up with Mormons because it doesn't really get you to the Gospel or the nature of God so I tend to avoid it until someone has come out of the Church and then talk about it but yes they did practice polygamy in the early years temple ceilings. You can be sealed to multiple women and it's super fascinating so they they still do practice polygamy but not not in the physical sense. One man is not gonNA have five living wives he might have one earthly wife and he might have been sealed to a woman previously who died but I'll write an article about that to clear that up because it's it's actually one of my favorite subjects sweetest thing it's so fascinating then we're GonNa talk about <hes> so the General Authority it makes up the first presidency quorum of the twelve apostles quorum of the seventy and they have church wide authority. They're the top dogs in the Mormon hierarchy. So the teachings of the Church Brigham Young on page Thirty Eight says the Twelve Apostles hold the priesthood keys for building the Kingdom of God in the world. This is directly tied to the profit. <hes> estrogen talk about who that is so the Prophet is the head of the Church Church. The Prophet is the president the seer the revelator <hes> there's are all synonymous <hes> there has been seventeen profits and the church's history <hes> Russell. M Nelson is the current prophet of Elliot's Obvious Church true to the faith on page. One twenty nine says we're blessed to be led by living prophets inspired men called to speak for the Lord just as Moses Isaiah Heater Paul Call Me Phi Mormon and other prophets of the Scriptures we sustain the president of the Church as our prophet seer and revelator and the only person on the Earth who receives revelation to guide the entire church it also says you can always trust the living prophets and quote if a living prophet gives new revelation that goes against what the pre what was previously taught the old revelation now passes passes away. A good example of that is that the black members of the L._D._S. church were not allowed to hold the priesthood but that was later changed by revelation in nineteen seventy eight which I think is I not ironic may be ironic but that's whenever will it did happen around the time yeah the Civil Rights Movement 'cause I'm. They just happened to match the church so every is it twice a year yeah. It's twice a year a the Tober. They have what's called General Annual Conference. That's where the Prophet and other speakers high bigwigs in the church will speak to the whole latter day Saint Church <hes> but he said April in October is when it happens that swear any new teachings their policies or revelation is now at the general conference. <hes> have you noticed I like the the terms that they use like president and general conference. I think it sounds so American. Doesn't it Herman the Mormon Church is the quintessential American religion. Is that something that said in American Gospel. Yes it is back in. It's so so true because everything about it is what us as Americans American dream. It's which we we have not touched on the whole one day you might become become Assad but every American things that they are their own God and wealthy a marker of America and all these things preview preview for an exit also as you can see the the Mormon Church has a hierarchy structure in the way that it set up. Everybody has somebody over them. They've got somebody beneath them. It's it's just this long chain of command with your the Prophet President leading. You've got your wards. The word president the counselors the they have deacons. We didn't mention anything about that. I don't think they have it if you have deacons I believe they're deacons are their twelve year old boys. Oh Wow pretty sure they're teenagers. Are the ones who administer sacraments because with the priesthood is more just the ward and Malki deck is the higher ups Narcan to briefly express that like I said earlier it's more in yeah but like the Bishop is the highest rank of the erotic priesthood they they're boys in the younger. Men in the congregation have roles because everyone in the church has calling you do you you give your time to have worked to do. Yes we'll tell you what it is they will they'll and I think the way it's given to you. Is that <hes> you have to either the stake president or the even above him but Sonn tells you what you're calling is Joyce yeah anyway so Estrin I have we're we're kinda shifting years and changing our mind because we have been recording a really long time so we're gonNA break this up as of right now. We're going to do three parts. Who knows maybe we'll do more but right now? We're we're GONNA break it up a little bit we talked about the structure and history of the church. We're GONNA save the nature of God for different episode but we're going to post it on the same day so everything you'll have access to it <hes> but it will be shorter and <hes> we'll just be on the nature of God so we're GonNa end this episode. We don't really have much exciting to say because this is kind of on the fly but we do thank you for listening. We hope that you do come back to learn about the nature of God and learn about the plan of salvation.

Church Joseph Smith Mormon Church Gospel President Joseph Church of Jesus Christ latter- Christian Church Church of Jesus South America smith Jessica Palmer King James Bible Peter Esther Christ latter-day Saints Esther Faulkner Dot Org Sacramento James One
Episode 379: Mormonism Part II - I'm in the Bible Now

Last Podcast on the Left

1:40:43 hr | 2 years ago

Episode 379: Mormonism Part II - I'm in the Bible Now

"No place to escape to the loss time cast on the left. That's one of the cannibalism list. Boys boys got around. I i had a vision last night. No kissel do not laugh laugh. You're not be laughed because they know it's because you're a feared your change listen boy. I'm listening. I division a man came to me. While i was asleep last night. He came in through the balcony door like he actually walked through the window. He opened up the sliding glass door and he walked in yeah and he was beautiful. Full you to flashlights attached to. I believe some sort of football gear on his shoulder shoulder pads and he told me that there was a place where i can go where i could find a hidden <music> series of plates in a box yes again. I know i know that all of this sounds ridiculous. It sounds like a fairytale. I was laughing but now i'm not laughing for listening fidgety breath ridden listening to me and i went i found these plates and i looked at them and they told me incredible story of a little brown haired girl that was homeless that she you found resumption in the arms of jim belushi belushi and it was incredible story and and her name was quarterly sue ya interest edible but there's the last chapter which i have to show you guys. It's it's http still shook it with the beauty of what i've seen. It's called golden shower. Teddy bear was the last chapter and some of these plates. Were quite graphing breer so you basically you fell asleep while watching early soon. After you jerked off to people and uh-huh i had envisioned. Hey what's up were welcomed the last podcast on the left. I am benjamin german grant kissel along with marcus jordan parks and thank you for remembering my middle name. It's you have a great name. 'em j._p. And then we have henry thomas subroto ski right over there in los angeles. You wouldn't believe out the teddy bears were dancing and how teddy bears had little human pearson didn't really know how the smiles on their teddy bear spaces as they found exultation in the drinking and the gargling of the year ead of the other eh captain bears. Which would they call themselves in. These leather overalls very excited. I can't believe how many of them peed fully erect wow. What a visionary. I would love if you started to call henry because the your followers would be some of the stinky is boys around the angel sammy he he <hes> won't leave my house. Okay you have a homeless man living at your house. I'm starting to gather evidence and it seems that that is the right everyone what we are onto part two of our long series <hes> on mormonism so let's get you mormonism partout so when we last asked left joseph smith the angel moroni i had finally allow joseph to bring the fabled golden plates home to begin the translation of the book of mormon or at least. That's what the mormons believe. That's what they have to believe. Yes and of course the angel moroni he had to finish all the spaghetti on his plate before he could read the plate said <hes> gentleman. I want you to prepare yourself because that's not the last joke on men from queens that this episode is going to provide so just be ready in from what joseph smith told his followers at the time and this tells you a lot about mormonism awesome. The retrieval of the book was a process that spanned four years in the entire thing was absolutely fraught with ritual who see joseph smith was told that he had to purify himself of greed before taking the golden plates and that he would have to return once a year for four years straight before he could finally take the plates home. God that's like showing up at popeye's chicken sandwich one day a year for four years and just having to stand stand outside of the restaurant look in the windows and masturbate. I will say this is a good lesson for him though right because he was a grave robber working was great and he was so this is actually pretty this is this is pretty good but still that's the thing that joseph was not super peer because he still tried tried to take the plates each time you went. I shall have them. Oh how shiny they maroni has to be like gaddi kick cake and he was stopped each time like what did he say that. Didn't he say that he was shocked when he tried to grab the plate so that he felt some sort of like i guess he felt some sort of energy that kept him from taking them. Yes he touched them and literally. A bolt of electricity went through his body. When i'm maroney's went hey hey g get with the buzzer. It's like when you put the dog collar on a dog and then it shocks them when they leave the yard and we tried to do that with my dog growing up which i don't recommend it's very mean but all the dog does is run ten feet get through the pain and then they never come home again. I tell you what it really worked on my sister though you did that with jackie told maters such a pit bull that electric-shock only came on the first is two times on the third time that joseph smith tried taking the plates he was stopped by an actual creature see on that night according to one source the angel angel was maybe gonna let joe smith take the plates so joseph was instructed to wear black clothes to the retrieval and to arrive riding a black horse with the switching tail now. This is a part of the story that is true is it. He did have to dress in. We'll get into this far. Deeper in the next two episodes roads and too deeply ceremonial gear used to cover himself in black and leave seems to be that in reality. This was an extraction from joseph. Smith's myths father when smith arrived at the stone box to retrieve the plates on the third time and i'm simplifying this because it is highly confusing. He found that there was along along with the book. Something like a toad inside oh cool and that towed soon assumed the appearance of a man like thanks joe his team. Hey think maybe these guys can take me all new fell. These used in jos jos live and you'll just living in joseph. Smith came up with the the cliche. It's my world and you're living yes. I certainly didn't bought anything really also interesting a toad transform. A transforming is a titular point in the film psycho mania. That's true yes indeed the deep cut for horror fans or when smith reached into to the box to retrieve the book. The toad man punched him in the side of the head back. Take me home deployed snowball woah. Oh my god i can just see with little kate and his top hat happened again and again. Just kept trying to surge striking <music> programmatic snake honestly amid a mad at the way. This is where i check out of mormonism. I can't be following a leader who got beat up by a toe. Got beat up the tote. I'm sorry we got what rules human beat up a tote. Finally the toad man told joseph you haven't mm followed the rules so you gotta wait another year not telling me all the rules. I just making it because i don't. I guess i will come back into your now because i've got fuck else to do besides become a more powerful right hand path magician now over the course of this series. I'm going to be saying the words. I thank a lot because mormon. Theology is some of the most confusing shit i've ever read and we're probably going to get some shit wrong wrong. We're not mormon scholars here even mormons who studied this shit their entire lives. Don't know this story that well all right probably surprise y'all out there. There's a lot of sources for this topic really lot of material written on it and just to go through it. Apparently some people devote their entire lives to understanding this topic topic and so we're just like getting into it but i do believe sometimes into confusion. A lot of it would supposed to be really is just about marcus. I do have the fucking stones did say that you believe in one thing or not. And where are you going to be a flip flop. Don't say that or oh part of this confusion has to do with the fact that while joseph smith was fantastic oral storyteller and a fantastic public speaker. He wasn't all that great when it came to the written word so he's like a sasha grey type very interesting. He told i've never read her short story. You don't think that she told oral stories. That was a whole whole thing she she was just wondering about pornography. He had a story arc in her art in addition. You gotta remember that again. Mormonism by its very nature is an improvised religion and joseph told different stories to different people at different times in his life concerning the origins of the book of mormon and furthermore many religions like say catholicism are complicated by design because if you've got a belief system that simple and easy to understand what the fuck do you need a priest and a church for <hes> but the interesting interesting thing about the book of mormon is that originally it was supposed to be just that a book see the smith family was once again in financial trouble and joseph was trying to figure out a way to contribute to his family fortunes. Yeah this is like fuck and flubber. He had to get he had saved you can't they were common and they were going to take the ah big. People are going to buy his family's farm so we his back was against the wall. You got a bunch of little misfits and he put together a baseball team and he taught them how to write the book and them and the misfits in all the kids from the fat camp together and they beat jesus christ. You need to creating a new religious combined so many movies in s. analogy. It's amazing flubber. If you go back and watch of course it's surrounding about a basket. It's about a basketball game <hes> and the only way that white people can jump is through the the magic of science see joseph had the idea first story that we give a new history to the americas because that it was a hot topic at the time like what was america before columbus came oh. I wonder if there's a whole group of indigenous people could ask them. What was this land like aw that's boring. They're liar and we complain about all this shit we do but the problem is that while joseph smith could read he could not write that is actually something that is a bit of a misnomer about joseph smith because many people call joseph smith illiterate but the the thing was that they were using illiterate in the sense of the time see back then illiterate could mean that you could read but you couldn't right yeah if you couldn't write it was called a writer order someone who was extremely stupid very low intelligence who constantly dropped snickers wrappers on the ground there a literate in idiot literate it idiot literacy the folks. It's not all gold. We've only been doing this for four hundred episodes okay. It's not all going to be crashed my car. I'm laughing so hard so just take your not cruiser. Just go sixty five and have a safe trip home all right another thing that joseph smith knew from his treasure hunting days that if you really wanted to sell something you needed a hook so joseph smith gave his story divine providence i e visitations from god jesus in an angel named moroni see the book of mormon at its core is really the synthesis of a bunch of different stories that were floating around america at the time time you can also say the same thing about shakespeare shakespeare all five of them <hes> the multiplicity group that shakespeare stole roll stories from the past and repackage them in fun ways <hes> interesting. That's because one of joseph smith's greatest strengths was the ability to take take all these different stories and cast them in a new light which honestly isn't necessarily a bad or even uncommon practice in modern fiction for just a couple of examples like say the invisibles bulls one of our favorites here the invisibles gigantic pastiche of dozens of different sources and it actually rips pretty heavily from robert anton wilson's aluminum trilogy trilogy and as far as t._v. Goes the framework for battle star. Galactica is mostly ripped from the book of mormon how our galactic was created by among the twelve twelve as you know the planet cobol in mormonism. It's cola the creator battle. Star galactica was hardcore mormon that that is a brilliant form of religious indoctrination who we get we get the good stuff out of it you have what's your name tricia helfer notre. That's not a mormon thought he he was an interesting but a fair number of joseph. Smith's rips came from the more mystical parts of the bible rim anthem. The magical seer stones were mentioned in exodus as a dormant on aaron's breastplate. Although we have no idea what their actual rule magic function was covering up those cities you're aaron was the original definition of the name aaron means big nipple and so he was just so scared. It's a shame how big has nipples head ground that he needed these stones to get his power is in. It wasn't just those small mall details that joseph smith borrowed he took one hundred names from the bible for the book of mormon indirect swipes from the new testament make up almost ten ten percent of the text okay but for the actual narrative of the book of mormon joseph smith mostly took from the stories that were at the time threatening to become official a short parts of american history see as we mentioned in the first episode upstate new york was home to a large amount of indian burial mounds and it was thought at the time by a surprising surprising amount of people both educated and not that these mounds were the remnants of an extinct race whilst because it's much easier to deal with a race ace that no longer exists and not have to come to terms with the actual crimes rub your civilization that showed up in a rolled holdover the previous civilization so really good way to do that. It's just kind of forget that they were even there so you are so like that's done. Why are we living than in the past like that thought process. There's a book called the fifth head of cerberus by the guy that wrote the sort of the citadel series his <hes> wolf he basically said it's all about that about how they showed up on a foreign planet and then just got rid of the old species and then said oh they've you been gone for centuries and then move people there <hes> the amount of nerd knowledge that you have is true. It's it's you're very smart henry yeah but that is an interesting. There's a sociological phenomenon as well. <hes> oftentimes people of different class literally just do do not see certain other people so they've done studies be like how many homeless people did you pass on the street and i didn't see any but in reality the past four and then someone else would see the four. It's very interesting. You can stop now. Hello to everyone. That's what i do. Hello john get mentally handicapped and what was more is that not only erase the history of the people already there they also constructed a story that made the whole thing those people's fault brilliant it was thought ought at the time that at least some of the remains in those burial mounds belong to an advanced extinct white race <music> who'd been wiped out by the darker skinned natives in a great war and all those people were buried in these large mounds post battle while specifically typically the place where they were in new york right in upstate new york where they said they had found these giant mountains and so they had originally postulated that it was this battleground cemetery cemetery that they thought that these mounds were evidence of these giant battles that happened and so these were the losers skeletons that we're looking at which are these advanced people that that had tools and furniture and homes and all this shit so they said it was an outside force because they weren't reading actual history and did not know that they were put put there on purpose and this wasn't just folk belief. This wasn't something that farmers were telling each other like on days off. Academics bandied this shit as probably true and william henry harrison just before he became president for thirty days of course before he died. He wrote admiringly about this possible prehistoric america. He thought yeah that makes percents. Yeah i mean and if you can't trust someone who is too stupid not to be able to live when president who can you trust well now. We know that these mounds were merely aggregated. Burial sites made up of ancestors of the cahokia tribe but back then a person could attach pretty much any story they want it to these bodies and joseph smith had a lot of practice telling stories about these mountains seat. I joseph made up stories about these hypothetical american forebears to entertain his family and going off the theme that the book of mormons essentially a fantasy novel joseph smith was a master at world building ending his own mother said that when her son told these stories he knew how the people dressed how they traveled animals domesticated what their buildings looked like how their cities were laid out how they made war and most importantly what their religious worship was like all my son. Joseph is the small test historically. I've they've ever man. He explained me. They walked hollowed out melons for clothes. I knew that the clothes were dirty win. The birds had eaten eaten all the melon rinds off of them and they became new and they used to drink only p a bunch of teddy bears would come out the forest big masculine teddy bear with with human penises making love to each other defiance of of morality in defiance of god's law and you know i. I appreciate the freedom. I wish they wouldn't put it in my face. <music> will sometime between eighteen twenty and eighteen twenty seven. We don't exactly know when joseph smith decided to put this history to paper but before we get to that it's important to talk a little about joseph smith's family history because henry discovered some new shit since we recorded the last episode ooh ooh cool i didn't you henry. I can just see you like a truffle hog in their research old joy out henry discovered is that it is very likely but the smith family even outside of joseph smith himself were practising right hand path magicians and the evidence for this lies in the magical artifacts that the smith family allegedly owned okay well. We're going to see over the next two episodes. Is that joseph smith. I'd some point was massively educated about the ancient rituals like al chemical magic and hermetic studies right so at some point he moves up and slowly but surely layered it into mormonism the book of mormon. We're gonna find out as the most pedestrian part of the entire religion. The book of mormon mormon does not hold any of these secret rituals that will slowly built and we're going to cover more an episode three but in order for him to even know this at some point his family must've been heavily involved and it seems to be that they were involved in magical thought but it was a practical version of right hand magic what we'd call folk magic that seemed to have been handed down from generation to generation yeah i mean let's go through some of the magical artifacts. The smith family actually owned okay. They had three parchments covered in magical symbols copied directly from three well-known magical texts the major by francis barrett published in eighteen one the new and complete illustration of celestial sciences by ebeneezer sibley published in seventeen eighty four and the discovery of witchcraft by reginald scot published pushed in fifteen eighty four. That's very nice. There is also a book called the three philosophies of the occult by. I wanna say a aggripa agrippa. I don't know how how to pronounce it and that is another drug antic companion and we're going to see to joseph almost stole. The idea of i can jus- is cure rate a series of thoughts. Write these books where you take these but all of these books are cobbled together of ancient people telling the next person in the next person this how it's done and ancient texts and these people are not making the shit up completely their packaging it creating connections but they are taking old stories and making them news which is what joseph smith just inherently understood. That's how somebody works. You gotta be remix so he's basically the first instagram the grammar who has an account that just deals everybody else's work and then gets he's a million followers of monetize it agra gator who's an aggregated so so that is really what's interesting about that. Then is if that's how he kind of grew up as a family that is the basis of mormonism. I suppose it's not a foreign for humans to build on another other person's literature and those kinds of things but that's a really fascinating little seed for mormon yeah also the beginnings of scientology and if you probably look back and you actually had video cameras or some kind of evidence back in the day i could fucking guarantee it is also the backbone of christianity and also the idea of just the kabbalah being and it's all mystical mystical center in the middle of judaism very interesting highly compelling stuff furthermore joseph. Smith's brother are hiram inherited. A true blue magical tool from joseph smith senior hiram smith was in possession of a ceremonial dagger which was used used in the pursuit of what else but treasure this artifact now known as the mars dagger had the seal of mars inscribed on one side of the blade and on the other other was the zodiac sign for scorpio and the hebrew letters for eight oh nine and while it may seem like all this as a little hodgepodge the hebrew letters in particular when it comes to treasure hunting seem to be tied to the magical writings of the aforementioned henry aggripa which date to around the sixteenth century these people knew do what the fuck they were doing yet did they were labeled with magic and we'll and then we'll see later on when joseph smith is even dead. We're going to find out what even had on his own. I'm fucking body at the time of his death. The end of mormonism all this shit man knocking fucking magic but he took all the dick and pussy out of it. He made everybody during coughed often well. That's a different kind of approach. There isn't alchemy just thinking that dog shit can become goals necessarily dog ship. I'm just saying that's a fun world you you because you're allegory oracle the trans allegory. I'm just saying you're gonna be served. If it is allegory leap it it it makes walking through a cow far much more exciting because it's not just piles of dung. Its potential goal the. I heard it was allegorical another thing we've found out since the last episode is that crazy old treasure hunter that we dismissed as an old coot in the last episode the guy named aimed walters he was actually a physician named dr lumine walter and dr lumine walter had traveled extensively in europe studying alchemy comey and hermetic lower and young joseph smith spent a lot of time and walters tutelage interesting just cut to him rolling around in pig shit just being like it's like what goes down. I'm just too. I will say do not count him out for being an old coup dogmeat because even even doctors can become hold coups gotta get to i can't wait. That is what i'm shooting for because right now. I'm just a young coup. You'll you'll get thereby everybody. You're going to get there now. We're not saying that these beliefs were real or that. Even the or they even produced real results but the point we're trying to make i'll get into it but the point we're trying to make is that joseph smith at the very least since he was a teenager was immersed in magical ritual which actually makes nineteenth century entry america a much more interesting place when you realize that just like fucking farmers were practising ritual magic that does make it much more exciting than what i would imagine which is farmers just waking up three thirty in the morning having to touch every part of the teat on their cows. I'll tell you what that back on a don't really go one issue. Give it a good suck and then just stare at a cord and i hope bugs don't come with every single farmer practice ritual magic but some of them were and that's coolish yet but back in eighteen twenty seven joseph smith was still a long way from actually putting any any of his ritualistic knowledge to use for anything other than treasure hunting because he just didn't have the belief in himself or the scope to even conceive of these ideas. He didn't didn't know it was working. He didn't know what he works. He was working. He didn't know that this shit was in the background right now. Joe smith is young dumb and full of calm and all he wants to do is is get as many wives in his saddle as possible and he wants to write not yeah he's going to discover how we also have fundamental disagreements on what the purpose of polygamy is but anyway i know no well now i have more deeper deeper nacion understanding which will bore people with next week yeah but but at this time he's a good looking dude. Who's who's just trying to save the family farm. We all know the purpose of polygamy is to get a reality show. I heard it was suicide by nagging. Come on this are we w well at that time. Joseph smith was just trying to sell a book so we wouldn't have to be a fucking farmer but still joseph. Smith couldn't do this on his own. Because as we said joseph smith couldn't right but before he could get to accurate recording being the story itself the story surrounding the book of mormon the hook still had to be filled out <hes> i he had to convince his family and considering how into the occult they already were it wasn't that hard to convince him that he'd eventually found a magical tome of his own that he couldn't showed anyone less. They die a horrible death off. This cleared something up for me learning more about his family history yeah is learning about how like why they all jumped in when he said i found this book doc. It's an absolutely incredible. Your minds can be bone. I have to make it up. That didn't say if i show you any of the source materials shawish gosh air quotations your heads explode and they're like yeah. I know books like this. I know had exploded books but it's because now out there in the story like now. They're no one on the outside of the story. They're no longer just doing these. Rituals like now the smith family who have always been poor who've always thought that they are better than everyone else now the smith family they were the story cool enemy wasn't like he wasn't <hes> he was telling the truth somewhat right. I mean he was working on the book. It wasn't like shelley devolve finding jack nicholson writing in the in the main entrance of the hotel in the shining at least working on it yeah okay he had a higher output put jack torrance but the bolster the claim joseph was able to show his family the other magical artifacts that he'd found he showed them the seeing stones and he showed them the breastplate that he supposedly found with the golden plates and those things did exist because the breastplate like breastplates were relatively common in upstate upstate burial mounds so he probably rob that from a grave shows like look. This is what the angel show me. These are the seeing stones the book i can't show it to you but i promise it's there there and they figure two out of three ain't bad not at all some of them some of the family and a closer look at the seer stones and others because some of them said the seer stones were of the solid shiny rocks and some of them said that they were. I think it hermit tight. It's a clear courts like rock but we do now but it just seems interesting that everybody's got a different story. What the fuck yeah so once smith convinced his family. He moved onto his wife. Who was a much harder sell see emma was starting to suspect that maybe she'd married a con man manha and her father never stopped telling her that she had definitely married a con man what that meant was that the divinity of the book of mormon played a role not only in keeping the entire smith family afloat but also in assuring emma that she had made a huge mistake in marrying a handsome treasure hunter from new york which is how how colts get kind of born right or now people feel that they are invested personally in believing the central ideas. These are the kind of beginnings of it. This is all to all you ladies and men out there. If you gotta you gotta do or woman you got a significant other that it's telling you that they they got time. They've got to put something together. They don't have time to have have a job because they're too busy working on a big secret project. You have to either make swords a book by going to the computer and making sure they're not stockpiling pilots guns or just a bunch of different but plugs and they're just trying to make the world's biggest game get sponsorship. You can monetize that yeah well since emma place no stock and the occult joseph smith had to dazzle her with his talent as a storyteller okay so emma what was tasked with being the first transcriber for the book of mormon and as she sat ready and waiting with a pen and paper joseph smith was across the room staring into his seeing stones and when inspiration finally struck smith began the tail that would become the book of mormon blah blah mueller blizzard thanks to hellofresh for supporting last podcast whether you're an accomplished home shafir more of a p j guy hellofresh makes cooking delicious meals at home a reality regardless of how comfortable you are around pots and pans if you're just afraid though physically pots and pans there will be some obstacles here with hellofresh america's number one meal kit you get easy seasonal recipes and premeasured ingredients delivered right to your door. 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That's smile dot com promo code last as we said the book of mormon was a record of the history of the american indian and like the bible it was written by prophets and divided into different books and we don't wanna get too deep into the theology but what the book posits was it that while nine of the lost ten tribes of israel from the old testament were indeed still lost. One of those tribes were the first people to populate would eventually came to be. I known as the united states of america ooh and these guys were so jewish. They lived in tents. Were so jewish they could speak to bison senate really. I didn't realize that was the stereotype of the american jew. See was the private knee fi who had left jerusalem six hundred years before the birth of christ and and with neef. I was his father lee high and a few others. All people have family names that they all right kyle. This is is lyle. This is mild. This ban dishes clan dishman and this is ribbon ribbons. We're out audience but we can't stop having babies will ne- fi lehi and a few others all left jerusalem because the city was due for destruction and like joseph smith neef i had two older brothers who were named lehman and lemieux oil and like joseph smith neef i had three younger brothers sam jacob and joseph but in the book joseph cast the two older brothers as evil and because they were evil god cush them and all of their descendants with red skin isn't that great so god was super races punishment was making them look native american. Wow that is unbelievable so there's a lot of bigotry in here to get a lot worse. No oh i know i know i know what happened. In nineteen seventy-three win the liberal mormon select people were actually the first time i know and thus the layman nights aka the native americans were born and since neef i had stayed in the good graces of god. He retained his white skin because it's a well known fact act that everyone from jerusalem and six hundred was white. Oh yeah buddy. That's wipe born because there's nothing. There's no place where i see white. People feel more natural especially me in the desert sun beating down slowly might pale light skin. I don't need protection. I had a palm fronds which i carry from in place to place like there's so yes of course i'm from africa naturally so that meant that the white men the neophytes we're the good guys and the native americans the late nights where the bad guy okay see lehman nights were described as quote lyles and ferocious and bloodthirsty people full of idolatry and filthiness the feeding component beasts of prey duly intense with a short skirt good at lauren's. You could see their ingles tangles. Just trying to live have eats meat have some good barbecue beef jerky by contrast. The neophytes were quote a fair and delight right. Some people known for their love of culture. They were farmers and architects. They were good civilized folk who only wanted to bask in the glory of god saw doc by their ankles and just shake them like they're a sheet that needs to dry. I would love that. I hate those kinds of people in these two tribes word word with each other for a thousand years after each battle the dead were piled in great mounds and it was the dead neophytes and laima nights who dotted the landscape of western new york okay first of of all they went to ward for hundreds of years that war would have been over in a second as soon as the whites missed their t. lunch no better stop by so start t people that love architecture our great fight is that it must be said emma was absolutely flabbergasted when joseph seemingly just stream-of-consciousness this whole fucking story like as far as from her perspective. He's just sitting there staring at a table and he's just spouting initiate up dude. He's robin williams ing his way throughout this whole thing without the horrible ending. I guess he didn't wanna see you would come and real hard was when he when joe joe suspend was into shit into flow. He's got mountains over here and mounds over there everywhere you look there's mound and she's just like crazy. Crazy fucking rhyme nuts. 'cause emma honestly did not thank. Her husband was capable of creating such a story on his own but emma was just the i many people to underestimate joseph smith's raw intelligence see a big part of belief is that joseph smith was just a simple both farm boy who were all at smart well that was the idea right but that was in doctrine it was at that was how he knew. That's how you knew. The revelations were real simple. He was because you technically. If you met joseph smith the way they portrayed him he'd be like i don't know what happened and mauve the naked man coach in the in the naughton and gave so money fancy dishes so money they did. This ain't plenty stories and then you read the real joseph smith. He's he's like hey. He's got a bluetooth thing and you're like what does that do. It's all things from an angel. It's it's absolutely brilliant way to do it though come in and through the back door because then people are like oh he's just one of me or maybe even make them feel like they're more intelligent than you <hes> and then next thing you know they're voting for you as president of these united states of america but as john brody points out in no man knows my history this actually does a great great disservice to joseph smith because if you look at some of the other things being published at the same time as the book of mormon you see joseph smith was actually very well. Well read <hes> see eighteen twenty three about five years before the book of mormon was published a pastor named ethan smith wrote a book called view of the hebrews news or the ten tribes of israel in america. Although the book was badly sourced and its conclusions were fantastically wrong ethan smith was drawing upon what sources were available at the time to explain where the native americans actually came from and it was ethan smith who first floated the idea that the natives had come from israel israel with civilization in tow but over time had devolved into a way of living us whites had deemed inferior but their ideas that they left from from boats from israel yeah. It's very difficult. It's very difficult to way to get to america the the idea that the agents were asian people that came over the bering strait. Just it's difficult those some of these stories where they're like. They grew out the cabbage patch or you're like. I don't think they've had is good either but whatever gets them here. I don't know guys interesting so just refused the idea that they were indigenous that they he actually owned the land. Yes this is all just them doing mental and act gymnastics gymnastics to not feel total horrible pieces of shit exactly and justice smith even used this book to support his own hypothesis years later but cleverly joseph smith used a reprint of the material that was published after the book of mormon which made it look like the book of mormon had actually inspired this book rather than the other way round smart nice and it wasn't just the overall hypothesis is that joseph smith swiped the opening was the same the prophets were the same both quoted a lot from the book of isaiah and both said that the job of white americans was to bring the indian into the christian tim flock but this was just the base for joseph smith. This was the jumping off point. What gave the book of mormon the actual oath was the biblical connections see. There's a line in the bible from jesus that says other sheep i have which are not of this fold them also. I must bring and they shall hear my voice. That's that's also what we do here at last podcast that we're trying to get people to subscribe for various shots absolutely so jesus. He's just yelling at a bunch of sheep. We're gonna get over here. Sheep and it was over here would've sounded that's what jesus over here like scorpion l. cool and it was joseph smith's contention that those other sheep or the layman nights and the neophytes of america and from what joseph smith claimed jesus did come to america around the time that he was executed on golgotha <hes> who has story goes that when jesus came to america the neophytes in the layman nights have been been locked in a vicious battle but after jesus came both tribes accepted the gospel and made peace at least until satan undid the whole thing a few generations later <hes> got to but all this story it wasn't just emma smith who was doing the transcribing quite a bit of it was done by a man named martin harris whose family family sometimes employed joseph smith's family for day labor see martin harris although he was a perfectly honest very nice young man by all accounts was extremely serenely gullible and swallow joseph smith story about the golden plates moroni from the very beginning of joey detiege. You'd get some plates yours if you want your head to explode also on the media sunglasses are <laughter> my brain from the from the gold blades the shopping mati the reason why martin harris fell for this so easily because martin harris had what you might call a wandering conviction before hitching his started smith harris have been a restoration est a universalist and a quaker but but joseph smith story held a special laura i mean martin harris was a guy that was searching for something new. What were those reservationists. Restoration restoration is. I don't yeah yeah. I've never heard i mean the quakers are still around but this is also a time in america where there were so many different ways of looking at christianity because like we said in the first episode. This is the first time where we're in a country. You could do whatever you wanted with. Religion and america was full of dreamers. We didn't just have gold rush for monetary gain. We also had a spiritual rush. I mean we're trying to find the truth the great spiritual reformation and the restoration ration- it's their job with the i mean. I think that it comes down to what mormonism was also said to do which was restore. The true christian church like that's all this is about. It's whoever's the glass guy you said now. We've revamped it. We made samuel l. Jackson shaft should be all right yeah. It's the the whole like a primitive church theory like where we gotta bring the church back to its most because the book of mormon was also extremely anti-catholic like violently anti-catholic in in a time when people were burning down nunneries in america but for martin harris joseph smith story held a special lor because with joseph smith martin harris was getting on getting in on the ground floor of something brand new and that just made that much more exciting young man super martin what was most impressive about the book of mormon was that it seemed to solve the problem of just where the fuck the native americans came from because apparently that was a big question in the minds of a lot of white people at the time they were obsessed with this question like where do they call you. They should be because they keep running to places where they are told the west the final frontier will go and you'll see all these unadulterated rated lads free for speculation free for habitation and you go in. There's like what your family's living. You're like. Oh man you. You guys like here though we're well speaking of getting it on the ground floor i gotta i gotta run my package of her life. This year and i think i'm gonna do it. Did you guys like herbalife. All both you guys to sign up making so much money on my bucket list shitting myself to death so yes please sending ending in the senate me some great great was impressive is martin harris thought the story was he still wanted to see the plates for himself and smith refused naturally but he did would give harris akaki of what he said was some of the engraved characters from the plates so harris could take these great characters to a learned man to translate so it's as good as the plates right. You're gonna wanna keep this i._o._u. Because this is really really very expensive he just wrote a bunch of symbols down but we're gonna find out i mean he did a little bit of work for discount. Now concerning these characters like you'd think that you know if he's he's gonna be right in this shit. You know if it's going to be common from god if it's going to be coming from hang angels it's going to be in hebrew but the thing is is that speak even though speaking hebrew grew in america was rare at the time there were still people who could speak hebrew in america especially so close to new york city <hes> what nobody knew anything about just yet though in america was agip shin hieroglyphics see before the rosetta stone was finally deciphered in eighteen twenty. Two people assume that the written language of the ancient egyptians was forever lost lost and joseph smith assumed that it was going to be forever lost that no one was ever gonna will ever now man can't now in the golden state killer never come up with the technology to catch me just and these even after the stone stone was deciphered because the stone the rosetta stone <hes> was deciphered around the time the mormonism was created but those findings weren't published until eighteen thirty thirty seven years after mormonism was already established so joseph smith figured he'd be safe if he just copied a bunch of hieroglyphs along with other along with a lot of other impressive impressive looking symbols and call it reformed egyptian. That's a great way of just say total orchard because there were all. I love the idea of being reformed egypt shadow where it's like you. Take your horace hat off though like you'll always go to the temple of solomon. It's like you celebrate some of the various ramsey celebrations celebrations but some there were some people thought that the ancient egyptians and the people of the americas had made contact with each other because you no you had all the pyramids down in south america. Those are being discovered at this time so it was a ridiculous notion. It was one of those joe smith was very good at taking all these new new scientific discoveries that were wrong at the time but he was very good at taking them to give his own story a little bit of cloud okay but what martin harris i did with this sheet that had all these reformed egyptian characters on it. Martin harris took it down to columbia university and at columbia india. A professor told martin harris that he pretty much just brought him a bunch of bullshit but admittedly it was intriguing bullshit because i want to meet the fucking asshole you with this like who sent this to the professor asked if he could see the original plates now of course martin had to admit that even he had not seen the plates because do so was forbidden. You hope you like because if you were in jeevan dryden. Look these plates from what i'm told even song glasses won't keep your from exploding like oh yeah really you win. Martin harris told the professor that he couldn't see the book. The professor said quote. I i cannot read a sealed book so martin went back to palmira crestfallen but what joseph smith did next truly shows how intelligent he actually was according to harris when he told joe smith line about the sealed book smith immediately immediately went over to his bible opened it to the book of isaiah and showed harris this verse hey had us shit your pants and the vision of all it's become onto you as to the words of the book that is sealed which men delivered to warm that is learned saying read this i pray the and he saith breath i cannot for it is sealed boom goes the dynamite fucking three rain the center so instead of destroying his faith as it should have this episode actually bound harris closer because martin harris had unwittingly fulfilled build a biblical prophecy. Now everything versus the golden corral of all religious. They got everything you need see now. Harris is a part of the story now he's in it. He is in the fucking bible. Wow and with that harris pledged to finance the publication and distribution of the book of mormon. God we got started got him religion that free asked money but walmart and harris's getting carried away with his new buddy. Martin harris's wife life was none too keen on literally betting the farm on neophytes in lima nights and angels with goofy name. Oh she didn't like that idea. I i wonder why it is straight up tim allen and patricia. This is her. This is patricia heaton face unless you did what with our are fucking money and he'll be like this is the bible now who shot big. She became same especially concerned when martin told her that he was leaving the farm to be closer to joseph smith because martin harris had volunteered to take over scribe duties from emma because is emma was now pregnant so martin went his wife lucy with because she wanted to see this shit for herself and for two weeks lucie smith searched high and low for these fucking golden plates not giving a shit about the warning joseph a given that seeing the plates resulted in your fucking head exploding show me the place i honestly can see. It's just that line and walking into like hi how you doing. You're my you're my husband's new boss us. Show me the place god. I'll deal with my head exploded. I'll grow a new head and i read a thing last week. That says i can grow new head if i if i step on a daffodil with my left-foot three times i don't know bro fucking helmet on maybe keep it all contain antea after that was over in did with lucy harris finally said the hell do whatever you want. I'm going back home. Hey technically he wants. That's how you win a fight in a relationship always push. We're watching it half of wouldn't i don't wanna say forget the big boys fucking tax information and then if you just keep saying like nope nope nope nope nope eventually people stop asking india and so martin harris stayed in palmira to continue the writing of the book of mormon and as it went along joseph switched up his style of dictation with harris chris smith divided the room with a blanket and martin harris was not permitted to look joseph while while joseph was dictating through the seeing stone and of course by by switching it up he did the jim carey from ace ventura where he bent over spread is boutiques exactly ah so this is how the dictation goats is incredibly very bizarre so after two months they had the first one nine hundred sixteen pages of the book of mormon including what emma had already transcribed although there was not a single comma capital letter or period in the entire manuscript a new script because neither emma nor martin had punctuation and their skill set which is why so many sentences in the book of mormon begin with the word and i don't know what what wins the competition make you fall asleep while driving and listening to either l. r. h. is technique a._d._a. On c._d. player which i was doing for a while or listening to the audible version of the book of mormon hoof yeah because when the when the typesetters were given the manuscript it was just a wall of text no punctuation no no line breaks no nothing so they just kind of had to add in punctuation where this really that can change range a lot though can do absolutely i do think it's one of those things where you want to read it. After you take three bumps a real good coke and then you're like i'm reading and just as fast as they're doing just fine but mara harris thought that these one hundred sixteen pages constituted proof that joseph had been telling the truth all along long because martin harris have bought the whole fallacy that joseph smith was just too simple to come up with the story on his own so martin harris begg smith to permit the passage of the pages back to his wife who would surely be convinced of smith divine inspiration. Oh yeah that's definite. She's definitely she hasn't been to stew in three months just like ready to take him from blowing that guys do whatever the fuck it is. You're doing enjoying each other or do whatever the fuck it is eating lunch. I don't give give a shit. What's this book. It's not even an entire button literally a sex you technically just one long sentence. This is all our money is paid more took a lot of convincing but smith finally relented any let martin harris take the pages but then a week went by and another week and another and there was no word from martin harris and while smith was waiting emma went into labor and they had a fucking tragedy. The baby died in childbirth in emma almost died as well and finally emmett till joseph. Just go you see martin harris and find out what the fuck happened to the god damn book. Where's the busta fuck. Where's the smith where the fucking walking that i mean i'm actually surprised he would give a random and not a random man. But why would you give the book away. I would never have done that. I think. This is an early mistake yeah. It's early mistake but it's also it's hubris because i think joseph smith was starting to th i think he was starting to believe like when lucy sees these pages when she sees how fucking awesome this story is she's going to turn around and we're going to nip this whole problem in the bud and we're all gonna be buddies while oh god and fixing dinner dates together. Maybe if you had at one with comma trusted it more. That's not my fault. The words are rushed the true inspiration and and i trust gonna all but when joseph smith showed up at martin harris's house he discovered the terrible truth. Oh see predictably that pages did not impress lucy harris the way that martin had hoped they would in fact lucy decided that if nobody nobody was allowed to see the plates and there was only one way to prove that the translations were real so to test joseph lucy hid the manuscript and told her husband has been that it joseph where really translating these plates word for word and he'd have no trouble whatsoever in just doing it again honestly gabbara martin orb is dating sharon osborne married to sharon osborne and she's just in georgia is just talking on lockdown only lee smart person in this whole scenario besides chosen and she's just like stupid cat just do it again and miss it if he can do it again then you can convince me he's like she's like the plates fine. This is how he can convince me. I can do this then yeah sure everything will be great. We'll be friends now. This put joe oh smith and a bit of a pickle no way he'd be like oh. You hit the manuscript toss. Why could you just do it again. That makes perfect sense. Go off even a little then. He'd lose every time i go. He'd lose martin harrises money. He'd lose his wife's faith and most likely he would lose his father's farm because the father his father's father's farm was nearing foreclosure like the stakes were could not have been higher for joseph. I tell you what joe i'm believing. You and i know you can go out there and hit a home run saving his whole team. No the good kids can't on the get the afar your big old that i know you gotta do it for all right. Let's add the movie bast baseball heavyweight bill heavyweights anyways and basketball great what was more emma smith like was still hovering near the land of the dead since the stillbirth and the realization that her husband was a complete and total fraud might well have actually killed her but i will say if he can pull this off if he can't pull this aw might be converted so tusa smith did what what else but sidestepping bullshit <hes> he said the as it turned out good news guys god had already planned for just such an eventuality geology god directed smith to a second set of plates called the plates of neef by the covered petty much the same period of time as the original golden plates because that's what god always does god always creates a second copy debts lively yeah yeah always and as far as why smith couldn't just translate from the originals because it's not like lucy harris stole the golden plates it was because satan through lucy harris had sullied the message he took a dump on the place and therefore the original golden plates should never be translated it or read ever again because now they have the taint of satan me. Tell me satan put his gooch on me and i'm the one who fuck this up. I'm the one that's the problem i did this. How did this get flipped to me. A woman all right joseph smith sidestepping indeed but the funny thing about lucy harris's ruse was that through this small active chicanery she may have inadvertently vertically redirected the course of history see the first draft of the book of mormon was more of a narrative story. It was just something to sell rowen. Joseph gave it a second go. He had to give it a different flair because he was supposedly translating from different plates. So instead of just telling a story joseph smith made it a religious history the butterfly effect so she inadvertently created mormon as if she had just left well enough alone the book orman may have just been a curious if not completely forgotten piece of frontier literature but as a buzz she helped create a religion that now has a membership of sixteen sixteen million people. Oh yeah that's amazing but they all don't go to heaven. Isn't that weird. They got a lot. There's a lot of love. There's a lot of layers. There's there's like and that's why again wants to sell you on herbalife henry. You mentioned wanting to shoot yourself to death this product do that marcus. Do you wanna vomit yourself herself to death of course wow from that day forward like martin harris did not come through. This entire thing unscathed raised. He pretty much became joseph smith whipping boy because admittedly martin harris had fucked up pretty bad. Eventually harris was replaced in the translator ralph up by a young schoolteacher named all of her cowdery and we just recast it you just oh yeah. Let's get another guy. Sorry martin you're out all throw away. When it comes to vision he understood his strengths like this is not any different than being show runner become a show show runner of a of a television show that will become mormonism so they're not serving the narrative by they contract out there done like he's now moving to new blood new energy. It's like when roseanne got a whole new older daughter and it's like we're just supposed to roll around with it like oh. We don't notice it's a different person. What about the fresh prince's new mom. I mean come on oh. My god never happened to her. Suicide by cop and with oliver joseph switched up the process yet again so the way the he jumped into a form of s- crying that was him with what they had on his knees and the seer stones at the bottom of the hat and he'd sit with his face in the hat in his lap right as so he's sitting there who's gonna make the prophecy is coming. Note larry oliver's coming. Oh oh oliver out of the process prophecy is really cooking now. The second is is there a hole cut in the bottom of that it really prophecies closest plays that right henry joseph smith sucked his own cochran coming up with mormonism and that's how he it received all the proper words. He had a rib removed so we can suck. I don't think what does this mean says it he'd barry's face in the hat hole and in the darkness the words would appear before him illuminated in perfect english. I would love to see his face in that hat. Though i better come up with something woodson actually did have writer's block every once in a while and he but he would say say that he was not spiritually pure and i totally get it man like sometimes you go get your mind off shit. He'd go out to a river nearby in throw rocks into into the river until his mind research. I do the same thing. I play bass. When my writer's block yeah we all he throws rocks at carolina goes outside. He runs around the block as fast as possible positively tries to deliver postman's mail fan interest so by the time the book of mormon was finally finished in eighteen twenty nine. The manuscript had reached two hundred seventy five thousand words. Do mormons claim that the book of mormon was finished in and seventy five days which meant that smith dictated about thirty seven hundred words per day and put it into perspective our book. I runs about ninety thousand words. It's it's about four hundred pages and that book still in the copy editing process. We started writing almost three years ago all right but to be fair it really is the person transcribing arriving at no smith is the one that's coming up with the stories. We're this is how we are but the writer was the one doing the hard work because if we he's just will you know that's the coming up with you. Think okay so. I'd like to see how frustrated marcus because you're saying that the person who had worked the hardest in our book was microsoft word yeah. I think what you're saying. You're saying person the person with the quill having to follow every single insane person that this man is talking. You're saying that for me. The hardest part about writing the bulk of this book was that my hands got sore. Every once in a while work is if you had to write this book with the quill. I would say that i mean i will admit yes. I did have to sometimes take tylenol when i was having to write like twenty thirty pages in a week but i'm just saying the person who transcribed this and actually wrote everything. That must have been extremely difficult. He's just got a story. Tell in his own mind that you do not win. This argument not win win. Last night in the audience is gonna on a sidewalk me on the audience is going to side with you that just writing down harder than coming up with the entire religion how you gotta keep up pace. You gotta got carpal tunnel. You gotta roll with it. This guy is on fire. You gotta go strain or man. You are very difficult matz but still before we get your writing factual stuff about history making stuff up is not that hard. It's insane so much we we do is make things on writing fiction difficult from what i think you just proof by point writing. I visited is more difficult though writing wow yes <music>. You're gonna kill more. I'd started this series starting it but before you get too impressed with joseph's word output no the phrase and it came to pass appeared somewhere in the neighborhood of two thousand times that's great. That's like when you're a kid and you have to write fifty words. You'd like i really really really really really like missiles and and as i said twenty seven thousand words in the book of mormon were lifted directly from the bible and also he had a running start yeah he'd already written one version one hundred in sixteen pages of it so he actually had some rough draft work already done so then he can probably spit stuff out a little bit faster in the beginning and then get to uncharted land and figure out where the hell is. Emma was inadvertently also his editor somewhat will this by this point was cr- cowdery that was doing when this shit no. He had no editor in any way whatsoever. It was just straight upstream conscious yeah he's full on rush limbaugh great and he did admittedly hedley. He fucked up a time or two among his more egregious errors were the placement of john the baptist and claim that jesus was born in jerusalem not bethlehem atm fa. That's a pretty big detail to fucking busy and he fucked up having the natives bring horses cows and sheep in four hundred b._c. When it was common knowledge allege even at that time those animals didn't exist in america before the arrival of europeans and he had them eaten wheat and barley which didn't exist before the europeans instead of potatoes and corn and they were drinking bud light. How the hell did he even know about it and they recorded their favorite programs on a v._c._r. This is incredible. <music> that smith had an ingeniously self depreciating failsafe against these criticisms built in the book mormon he had morona rona proclaim this and if a plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in hebrew hebrew hath been altered by us also and if we could have written in hebrew you would've had non imperfection and now there'd be fault it would be a mistake may may not me because i tell you what you get the best pork roll newer could we hit the new jersey turnpike. You'd get off a hoboken. You are a member you take the dirt exit and sometimes i you know sometimes. They don't heated up. You gotta yell at that fucker and really drive it home. Joseph competed that last sentence again later on in the book. If there'd be fault it be the mistake of men and then when he said at the second time he added that if anyone call the money shit that person would be edging dangerously close to hellfire. That's a hell of a fucking thing. They'll like just hammer some on home home with <hes> yeah. If there's any mistake it's the guy's fault. Don't blame dolan. God don't blame the guy don't blame the word of god blame the hands of men oh and so who's the hands are so wonderful. Now ben season with the quill pen is mightier than the sword my friend. You're just saying you're saying on your grave. So some of you might be wondering what's the easiest way to ease back into a routine start up before september especially. 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Our listeners get a special offer that includes a four week trial plus free postage and a digital scale without any long term commitment. Just go to stamps stamps dot com click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in laughed. That's stamps dot com enter left bligh from york way but the real reason why joseph wrote the book so goddamn fast was because while joseph was farting around with blankets and hats with his buddies his parents had lost the farm and they've moved in with joseph's brother and joseph was about to have to share some of that burden and honestly i think this is one of the big motivators in the life of joseph smith and in the development of mormonism see joseph knew that if this didn't work he had no choice but to go back to farming he couldn't help the idea of like. I'm a special guy. I'm a special guy. I can't go back to some regular job. I need to be a leader. I'm too smart. I'm going to say say it's another page elleray playbook where it's just been like his body's beautiful because my l._s._u. Swift his voices to sweet. There's no way he can just have some office this job. She's got a fly. Elleray has the body of everyone with an office job other people listening to this. You're absolutely beautiful but that is also what you have have to do as an entertainer. You can't have a backup plan. When your back's against the wall you have to move forward otherwise you're going to be totally screwed. I had a backup plan. What was your backup plan. I had a few actually actually what we have. Mine was credit card fraud. I mean it yeah. Mortuary assistant morte like going mortuary school or or a history professor. You're you're talking to a true. Ghoul could live like a goal you know okay. That's that's cool. Man who wants mormonism started to take off joseph smith still new in the back of his mind that if he failed there was always a farm waiting and most likely joe smith wasn't going to own that farm joseph smith which is going to be working that farm and joseph smith would do fucking anything to keep from going back to the fields which is a motivation that i understand understand completely. It's like the end of red dead redemption towards the end. You have to start farming all over again and it's very hard yeah. You have to pick up shit. You have to nails. There's literally played yet. There's about three hours of the game where you just have to do fake manual labor. That's why red dead is highly highly overrated game very controversial. I i understand completely but the other thing that joseph had had to do to keep this narrative moving forward always moving forward he had to borrow from a lot of different sources and in addition to the histories and the bible joseph smith ripped part of his story straight from the headlines of the day not too far away from palmira. An author named morgan had gone missing allegedly because he was writing an expose on the evils of the freemasons cool and not too long after body washed up that was thought to be morgan but it was really a man named monroe and although we don't know for sure fawn brodie speculated that it was an amalgamation of the names morgan and monroe they gave us the word mormon because otherwise the etymology of the word mormon is a total fucking mystery well well we also remember the book of mormon is technically the concept is that mormon is the one writing the book he was just a guy that was a son of one of the various members as of the i forgot who i think it was. The good rates lead. He was representing right so more men was the name that was used as a character and then we'll find out later on joseph. Smith hated hated the term mormons. He didn't like it. He thought it was it was belittling to his people because that was just a character in the story. Which is the liked. The idea i forget with the actual term that he'd liked but it was you had to be a latter day saint yes latter-day saints latter-day saints not necessarily like mormons and in fact click mormon at one point in america mormon was a pejorative it was an insult to call someone a mormons such a human <hes> way to come up with the name <music> very interesting but it wasn't just the name that smith may have taken from this freemason story and what's amazing here. Is that conspiracy theories about freemasons overthrowing controlling the government. We're actually much more intense in eighteen thirty than they are today. It was way more practicing freemasons like actual powerful freemasons at the time. I am an entire government at seventeen seventy six was largely informed by the freemasons remains that whole society was deeply deeply embedded in creation of our country so you could see why they were actively concerned because they were really around and there were freemasons and power now and you know and the idea that there's a big evil organization <hes> that controls our government like it's been around forever and it still survives as to the states just now the masonic lodge has become the deep state and the freemasons have been replaced with the f._b._i. But the point is that all this bullshit is nothing new right yeah evil shadow government vermont is always been there. It's always been a part of our society but it's interesting to see how again or conspiracy theorists where you are borne is the seeds that were for real the little thing then we're real that scrap extrapolate into something huge and as he a rebranded certain religious tenants. That's all we do here. We just ran things with different britt names as marcus mentioned exactly joseph. Smith used these stories to great effect. He introduced a secret society into the book of mormon called the ghanaian titans and that's they make like <hes> they they walk with coconuts and they've courses aim aim of the guardians was to overthrow the democratically elected neophyte government and just see if these claims made about the gaddi anton's in the book mormon sound familiar thus they might murder and plunder and steal and commit whole dmz and all manner of wickedness contrary contrary to the laws of their country and also to the laws of that god whoa and the guardian tns had rituals and oaths that were almost direct rips from masonry and it was said that the gaddi anton's murdered government officials and were eventually responsible for a war of extermination fought near a hill hill that was disgustingly called come mora. Oh yeah maybe <hes> laura alright but despite all this seeming intrigue the book of mormon is not it objectively a good book in fact mark twain called it quote chloroform in print working working a little heavy handed me. Mark twain had a lot of the he had a lot to say about the mormons. He was quite good hot. Take yeah he had real good. How are you going to say well. I used this at a time. I know he was yeah but i mean it was boring. Boring ass awful so badly written. The characters are awful all like it's such a bad book but by the time smith finished it he was starting to realize that it didn't really matter how good the book was. He was starting to realize realized that it was not the story. In the book of mormon itself that was grabbing followers rather he found that the narrative that resonated most with people was the story of joseph smith myth not the time the only people who really believed in joseph smith whereas wife a few buddies and his family but that was a start and smith started to think that maybe just maybe he had the makings of a church added that is fucking promote yourself god and he is going to learn learn how to do this and it's gonna. He's gonna teach the people that follow him how to do this and it's all about again. Go over that ring maybe but in order to do that he had to take just one step further with the dudes that were already in his corner and one of joseph smith's many talents was the ability to induce visions in his followers followers another sounds kind of ridiculous but it is possible to induce hallucinations without the use of hallucinogenic drugs especially if the inductee is highly really invested in experiencing vision that day well the way he put the way he put visions to his people was essentially if you don't believe leaving this. You're not you're not with me. You're not a part of this movement and so. I don't know if it's necessarily you can induce elucidations definitely early especially by spiking their drinks with the erga route all it's happening around at the time my goal i kind of natural hallucinogens or you just say you better see this because if not our friendships over like our relationships over so you'd be surprised what people say that they see when you're alike trapped in that like essentially an ultimatum yeah absolutely but then i mean you've you were when you grew up in an evangelical you know how hard core people can get when they really want to believe they will believe anything i mean the whole <hes> getting the speaking in tongues and then having a pastor touchy laying of hand falling falling over the lane of hands people will test their testimonies are straight up spiritual magical. I mean nonsense but nonetheless they really do truly truly believe it and it does alter their lives yeah and although joseph smith had pretty much decided that a church was the way to go his acolytes weren't so sure so joseph smith started with oliver cowdery and the two of them headed out into the woods in may of eighteen twenty nine. They're the two of them knelt and prayed and eventually truly oliver cowdery saw vision of john. The baptist and afterward became convinced that a church was the best way to go and of course john. The baptist artist in division says you don't have to pay taxes more exemptive your church. Yes you will collect all of your money. The government doesn't watcher no tax john. The baptist are you. Is that rand paul. Here's the interesting thing about this vision. See oliver cowdery later wide stop and left the l._d._s. in fact all of the early followers of the l._d._s. eventually left joseph smith but oliver cowdery still maintained until the day he died that on that day in the forest with with joseph smith he saw john the baptist even though he said joseph smith is full of shit. I don't believe him. Don't believe what he said. He still maintains. I saw angel that day. I saw john the baptist. There's a way of looking at life kind of cross eyed way or you can hold these thoughts in your head at once that on some level he did present john the baptist to himself in these moments in order to essentially look up to what joseph smith was putting him up to <hes> being like you wanna being on this thing. You've got to be able to lie like old daddy joey. You got to be able title to spin the year like ice minute and so you're sitting there and you think about like. Do i want to be vice. President of this of this religion do i. I wanna be dude. Do i want to be a part of the thing and you are sitting. There would be like i do believe in god and i'm waiting for it and then you just see john the baptist and a pile of bear shin. Do you like nab c._n._n. And you could say that forever yeah so pretty soon after that martin harris new follower named david whitmer joined smith and cowdery in the forest to see if they could repeat the visitation or at least see something similar and the four men prayed and prayed and prayed but nothing happened finally martin in harris plagued with doubt just threw up to enjoy it just so nervous see god and if he's going to say i'm too skinny it would be fun of me for asking skinny and so the other figured they were seeing visions because martin was being all weird uh-huh ruining your whole vibe you're go pray alone for a little while and then come back but soon after martin came back in the visions began again in an angel appeared with the message the golden plates and everything in them was in fact truth but here's another interesting thing about these visions. Even though the message was the same for all three men all three of them had a completely different vision and although all three of them later left the church again. None of them ever went back on what they saw that day all right it was induced like joseph smith. I mean that is a hypnotism. He's able to induce he's able able to induce hallucinations in his followers. You got a group of people super gullible you take them out into the woods. You're setting the scene and i'm going to say there's something going to eventually the hermetic ability of joseph smith that he didn't realize that he was tapping into do you have a group of people like a firmly believe in this concept of magical thought right where you can create this religious reality in these moments and these moments of high energy zhenhai concentration you have these visions and they do seem concrete and they all real to you and if they were to infect them become real. It's in a weird. It's still real to me down once even more interesting about this. Is that martin harris. Even in his hallucination nation he still saw the golden plates covered in cloth. Even his subconscious wouldn't let him break. Joseph smith rules house morona a user okay. You've i bring like a welder's really protect boy. I'm curious as the gulf cat when martin harris was asked by a lawyer later like did come on like. Did you actually see the plates like even if they were wrapping up in cloth like. Did you actually see them. Martin said quote. I did not see them as i do that pencil case yet i saw them them with the eye of faith so we it's really not though sir see them. You know <music> take the word saw in put it in quotation more. What exactly you seeing anything like. You're seeing down seeing thank c. S. e. a. how you got two different word meaning. I'm this and he said all right. Just get is your sandwich and go. Oh thank confidence free sandwich. I can't afford launch. My coupons got all wet and ray. Nevertheless the vision that these men saw is now the introduction to the book of mormon. This is the proof but still this wasn't enough for joe so smith. If he was gonna start a real church he'd need more witnesses so he drew up a second statement. An addendum called and also the testimony simoni of eight witnesses witnesses see that's even more than the three witnesses and they had a sign a document where they all agreed see. It's legal. It's legal. They sign a piece of paper. They can't lie of course inside a piece of paper. Yeah no one would ever do that. These eight witnesses were three of joseph's relatives. The five members of the whitmer family and for this one joseph had to take it to the next level after making all of them pray for hours upon hours. Joseph brought them into a room whom he showed them a box and told them the golden plates are inside but when joseph opened it everyone said ain't nothing in that box joseph so joseph chastise them for their lack of faith told was their fault. They didn't see anything and he made them pray for another two hours. Yes yes and then the next time they looked in the box. It was the head of brad pitt wife. No oh it was wrath. I know when you open up the box to think about this. Shit were joseph's like are you ready big day hong seeing the plates hates you wanted to martinuzzi got sunglasses on the bags. He's safe martin. I'm gonna slap you. I'm gonna beat the living shit out. I'm i'm gonna show you all right now. He opens up the sarcophagus ha gaze upon them nothing there and it's just a room. Do it's like like where's that oh and then you get yelled at wow. Come back and you gotta pretend now lo and behold old after those two hours of rain. We're up. Joseph smith opened up the box and everyone said yeah man brilliant air. The kinoshita got ridges see gold plates narrowly. Oh yeah it's a big play now. What femme brody says about these episodes and i'm inclined to agree with her is that these acts were not. Necessarily cynical like say. Jim jones was cynical. After the first two visions in the woods joseph smith was starting to believe that he actually had the power to make these things happen and in a way he was making them happen even though they were hallucinations and not concrete angels and plates and such these people actually believed believed what they were seeing was real and smith believed that he was responsible. He wakes up every day and he's like. I make the people see shit. Yeah i do it. It's in my brain like jeremy renner putting together his new album of pop hits aw renner beliefs all of the people around him they paid sound technicians and studio musicians love his music you have i bet confidence that power man nothing can stop these a superhero in more ways than one and it was in this fog of newfound around magical power that the book of mormon was finally put into print using the money that martin harris made after he was made to sell his family's he's farm and this could have been joseph smith putting martin harris in his place is martin harris was getting a little vision happy and he wasn't shy i about telling people all about these weird ass visions that he was having i saw jonah baptism a bucket ooh cool. He said he'd seen jesus. In the shape of a deer he'd seen the devil covered in mousy for it was a little tiny devil and he was brown brown and it came into my house you know my brand and then i gave it a cookie and it left and i was like i guess what happens when you give devil okay interesting herat. Martin harris was telling everyone that he'd had a vision that mormonism was going to be so popular immediately immediately that within eight years america wouldn't even need a president no they certainly didn't need the mormon one <music> in other words. Martin harris was getting ahead of the game and making him give up everything he owned in order to put the word of god out into the world was a good way to remind kind of just who is in charge in her now now. Please just envision that you still have a house because you don't. I got a hammock abso- we need means devil mouse that i've seen befriended him. A little bit corny hangs in my pocket and oh the devil not such a bad little mouse. The smith was telling him is you don't have visions that tell the future of mormonism i have visions but till the future mormonism sure you can have these visions. You can do whatever you want. You don't tell people about these visions. You tell me these visions and i decide if these visions should be told sounds like to meth thaddeus arguing over the remote control. It's all right because that's the thing is that like the visions that harrison savon. We're stupid stupid. What i saw. I saw king solomon poll soup you yeah that's not stupid. Israel just as smith was starting to have a vision and you can have martin harris telling people that we're not gonna have a president president nate years because that makes more than someone like a bunch of fucking idiots as opposed to you know there's a line. There is a fine line line that this man had to walk. That was one thing that <hes> someone said about the book of mormon is that you know not many people saw the book more. Maybe one percent of americans skins actually saw read the book more but out of the people that saw and read it and listen to joseph smith a lot of those people ended up becoming mormons a lot of those people ended up becoming converted and so the book of mormon went into print and was i put on sale at a bookstore in palmira on march twenty sixth eighteen thirty and the first reviews were to say the least unkind all the first review published in the rochester daily advertiser featured the headline blasphemy. The book of mormon alias the golden beiber. Oh it made it sound really frigging cool cool. Yes and this is what that review said it. The book of all has been placed in our hands of viola. Imposition was never practiced. It is an evidence of fraud blasphemy and credulity shocking boulter took christians and more or less they all in proprietors joseph smith junior of fellow who by some hocus pocus acquired such influence over a wealthy farmer of wayne county not that the latter mortgaged his farm for three thousand dollars which he paid for printing and binding five thousand copies of the blasphemous work but as calm tom brady wrote and his joseph smith new at the time the success of joe smith church was not dependent on the quality of the book of mormon it depended on joseph smith himself and over the following fourteen years joseph smith would go from twenty three year old former treasure hunter to the leader of a religion with its own militia that was bringing in followers by the thousands that is until joseph smith was dragged from prison and murdered by a mob in eighteen forty four and just how all of that happened is what will cover. I'm mormonism part three all right. There is mormonism part too. I mean to be fair. The mormon militia extremely tired coffee at all so i mean the the nazis were were hyped up on meskel in and we'll we'll find out what happens because they had coffee for a little while until he got a revelation relation that turned out that he had to stop people smoking and drinking coffee. We will get into why that is. It's a little more domestic than you'd think it would be him but this then that section of this story story is so it's going to show the true potential of joseph smith. It's gonna show his magical powers and full full fruition. We're going to see him go from conman to aw religious zealot very very quickly and a lot of blood spilt and we're going to see that energy. Is that thing that's going to shuttle off. Mormonism mormonism deepen to twenty nineteen where we almost had a fucking mormon president i mean we never had he was kind of close discourse off. Yeah probably cost him the election being a mormon <hes> all right there. It is my hope. Someone can clean up. We need to get a mardi over there in the aisles to clean up all that blood. I guess but we'll talk about that. Thanks so much for listening everyone. Let's see we are going to be in europe and i have to say full disclosure. Our european tour is basically sold out. Which is a total miracle that you also much. We cannot wait however we still have some tickets. I believe available in bristol so if you wanna get on out there in bristol come on out. It'll be a blast fast and we also have tickets in birmingham and birmingham the b._i. Swear we had tickets in birmingham. Everything else completely sold out. Becoming is the place where we got about one hundred ticket. It gets louder. I'm check it out very excited to be in europe. Oh my god we're gonna be. We're gonna drink a lotta bear. Yes i cannot wait. We're gonna have a couple of days off when we get to you dublin. I think we have a day or two. <hes> and i'm just so excited to be there. I'm gonna eat meat. Drink guinness a little jail. You have to have a guinness with me marcus. I'll have a guinness way. Bring out the teat. I'll have it man yeah. I'm gonna see if i can try to find my way out into the irish countryside. You're gonna fit right at least yeah alright. Everyone will thank thank you so much for listening. Thank you for supporting all the shows here on the last podcast network. Check them all out. You're gonna love him and i guess that's about it. Don't forget hail yourselves. Peril satan malaysians komai man oh man. I can't wait to have some of my own secret under what seems really comforting. What is <hes> is look at into next week. We'll say <hes> i'll buy some. You can't think it would take several pairs overtime chinese secret undoing doing okay. I'll find the insult in their this show was made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors you can support our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listen to go to last podcast network dot com off.

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Rewind: Jesus is Fully God and Fully Man

Christian Podcast Community

01:50 min | 1 year ago

Rewind: Jesus is Fully God and Fully Man

"Welcome to the rap report with Andrew Report. Will we provide biblical interpretations and applications? This is a ministry of striving for tournament. The more content or Speaker Seminar for Your Church. Go striving for attorney Donald. Christianity is unique among other world religions. All the religious systems are based on system of morality of good works. What makes Christianity unique it is is not a system of morality it is about Jesus Christ Buddha is dead Muhammad is dead. Joseph Smith is dead Mary Baker. Eddy is dead, but Jesus. Christ rose from the dead. If Jesus Christ was not both fully man and fully God there would be no payment of sin. This was debate in the or century. Jesus Christ was fully man. It's important note that he did not have a human father. Therefore, he did not inherit a nature. Jesus Christ not only had to be fully man. But he also had to be without sin, never breaking any part of God's law. If Jesus was not a man, then people would have no payment since but Jesus Christ is also fully God. Jesus had to be got in order to pay an eternal fine only in attornal being can pay and eternal fine. Jesus, Christ, being an eternal being can pay the fine once for all though he paid it in time, he paid it for all of time. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. This is what makes Christiane unique among all other religions. It's not about morality. It's about Jesus Christ is podcast is part of the time for turned administration for more content or request, speaker or seminar to your church, but returned dot Org.

Jesus Christ Buddha Jesus Your Church Andrew Report Muhammad Christiane Eddy Mary Baker attorney Joseph Smith Donald
The Mountain Meadows Massacre

Citation Needed

43:41 min | 2 years ago

The Mountain Meadows Massacre

"I think I think they were doing it. No, no, she just changed into rose in the moment like you'd stay for her. No, no. Because because the Pearl says, says these to hang out all the time. Remember? Halt. Right. Right. It's Monday nail the furniture down. Exactly for this reason. Well, it's called a crowbar pilgrim ever heard of it. Hell grim, really, who is it the heath? Well, it appears to be a. Spanish conquistadors and an old Indian medicine man, sir. I get that a lot to show them away. You earn them out Tom? Stop it doing. Okay. So you found these golden plates, right? No, no. Tell them about the angel. I tell them about the time. God turned everyone read as punishment guy when they ally. Eli does not have golden plates, alighted and talk to an angel. He's just stealing this stuff from this week's episode. Yeah. I got to admit I'm kinda surprised seeing how Joseph Smith ends up, how pathetic how, how does Joseph Smith end up. Well. You know how we dial out you learn O fish noodles. Hello, and welcome to citation needed the podcast where we choose a subject read as single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend we're experts because this is the internet. That's how it works. Now I'm alive Bosnich? And I'll be your knee fi. But I'll need some murmuring brothers. I up to guys who did not get those jokes because they aren't stupid status. Tom and seasonal. Okay. I like to think of myself as an above average sadist. Thank you. Every time someone has to be a holy book. My answer's always the same reject the premise. I just reject. And also joining us tonight. Two men who know just how great the price of that Pearl is he, and no, yeah. The Pearl of great price is definitely the sand chafing your clam of books. As to the price, the LDS is estimated be worth about sixty seven billion dollars, and that's way more than the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. So, yeah, it's pretty pretty fucking high price. Four we begin tonight, we want to take a moment to thank our patrons, without you see someone Tom would have to split the west with their feuding Noah would have written a New Testament for God and heath would still be trying to fuck people to decades younger than him. We'd like to learn how to join their rinks stick around till the end of the shelf, and with that out of the way. See, so what person place thing concept, phenomenon or vent, will we be talking about today today, we're gonna talk about the Audrey meadows massacre. And hati moon route honeymooners. Folks in the deep coat, someone's home. L. Listen, he's like I love that. Resume nailed it. Let me let me for my Jamaican nurse so she can hear this was my life. So tell us know what was the mountain meadows massacre. Well, if I just answer that question, wouldn't exactly be in Noah essay would it? So let's start with a little primer on Mormon history. Jesus fucking Christ. If the first Mormon was an atrocity, or there's a geological of. Out. Okay. Well, go to warn you. There are rocks. But before we get to the rocks we have to overcome people's prejudices. So, like when I say, Mormon the first adjective that pops into your head probably isn't warlike. But I would submit to you that if you take the history of Mormonism as a whole, that's a very apt description. All right. So if you're looking for people who spent more time plotting to violently overthrow the existing power structure. You're pretty much limited to chega VERA or pinky, and the brain. Isis in there. But I don't think it counts. If it's just modifying the exists, exactly. The rules. So I'd say Joe Smith like you could describe him as one is genius the others insane. That's a. All right. So I'm going to power through a lot of the stuff leading up to the massacre, but I want to tell you that the history of Mormonism is a God, damn frac dove insanity. I don't have time to go into a whole lot of detail. Assure you that if you zoom in on any one point, you're just gonna find insanity built upon insanity built upon more insanity. So as crazy as all this shit is going to sound promise. The full history is way fuck and crazier cool. So you're saying the massacre they carried out that you're to describe that's one of the flattering stories about the Mormons. No just one of the east crazy. All right. So the story of Mormonism starts with the story of Joseph Smith, a criminal charlatan, who claimed to have superpowers in a magical rock seriously. In his early years, he made his living by going to people's farms telling them that he had magical visions that an ancient treasure was buried by anxious white people from America on their property, and then offering to dig it up for them in exchange for room and board during the excavation and people are stupid. So this worked sometimes, I mean, admittedly, that's way more work than most kids do around the house truth. Room and board. Clarify his scam. Like if everything went perfect in his scam. He got to couch surf at your place. Eleven. Phase three. He's not thinking, okay. Well, here's we'll occasionally your daughter, too, but the key here is that Joseph Smith is incredibly fucking lazy. Okay. Like this has fuck with the story, but I have to tell you this anyway. He didn't actually do any of the digging, right? He had a lack of right now. He had a team of laborers that did the digging, and in his job during the digging was to consult with his magic rock, and make sure they were still digging in the right place. Because and this is real Joseph would tell them that if they angered God, God would move the treasure to indifferent. Subterraneans. A side note in the stream of consciousness of boring. That is the book of Mormon he would repeat this lie literally just so he could go back to all the people. He never found treasure for all of them and be like, see Moses agrees. Quick question where you guys loving the Jewish people while we were digging because God shit around, if you don't love Jewish people in upstate New York. All right. So this scam worked out, as well as it could for awhile, I guess, but eventually word got around, and they got harder and harder for Joseph to sell this scam after failing to find treasure at every other place. But luckily at just about the same time God. And Jesus, we're looking for a good earthly Representative. And they figured, you know, who would be more trustworthy than a person that already has a criminal record for con artistry. So they set down an angel named Marrone, I to tell Joseph that he'd been chosen to restore Christ's church to its intended glory. Okay like Marrone. I that's like moron with an I at the decisive. Name angel and talion. Moron. Did he come down with chair print Ideo? It's just ridiculous. God, choose some random nobody with no power. No connections. No access to a broader social audience. Only that one guy, his most super Horton. This message to you wouldn't think he'd do that again. Every single time. Racists gonna get awkward. Of course, nobody would believe a story like this without some physical evidence. So Marrone, I told Joseph Smith about some golden plates that he could go dig up to prove that he was sent by God provided that he promised not to let anyone ever see or touch those golden plates. Now, if you think nobody would be convinced by physical evidence. They weren't allowed to see or touch Eissa mid to you Salt Lake City. Also, the Vatican also MEC, I have more examples, but I can leave it there. Muller report. For fuck sake, if I didn't believe in things, I couldn't see or touch, I would've spent all of high school, not believing in boo. Right. So why, why didn't God just make it a clitoris? Now, you're just talking crazy. No, you're bringing out the fantasy. All right. So anyway, so Joey uses these unverified golden place, that nobody got to see to write the book of Mormon a Thome more densely packed with an acquisition of the town of fucking bedrock, and using nothing with that his gumption and the amazingly low educational standards of America eighteen thirty he started his very own religion. That's a good formula kind of like the Republican party circa right now. Yeah. With more gumption. Yes. So Joseph Smith. Budding religion was saddleback couple of problems early on. The first is simple, bigotry. Right. Any group of people ascribing to an unfamiliar religion in nineteenth century, America was going to face persecution, even if they slab Jesus Christ on the name of their church here and there, the second was that Joseph Smith was a con artist with that criminal record of his and opinion for dishonest business dealings, that didn't stop when he started working for Jesus. The third is that as soon as Joe Smith, realized people were actually gonna listen to what he said, God said he got a bunch more revelations from God about how we should be fucking everybody's daughter, so. Yeah. Needless to say the blossoming new faith had a hard time getting along with the neighbors. Hey real quick. What did the tablets say? Oh, and it says. Yeah. And low on your knees show, the daughters of you be in supplication says Moore, but you get the trip it says it says me personally, the can I see those no? All right. Sounds plausible have out. Goes by actual history. Perfect for last. Or so. They get run out of several towns early on now have you listened to the Mormon version of this history? They tell you all about problem. One in curiously silent on points two and three there. But to be clear, the religious persecution. Real is it might have been was also informed by the fact that the Mormons were literally trying to overthrow the American government and establish a theocracy with Joseph Smith as the nation's God king? Yeah. And cream pie. Everyone's daughter. That's. But I mean all women are someone's. There. There. Funny, and look, I, I know that my descriptions, probably sound hyperbolic to most people, but, but by the time that the Mormons were settled in novel Illinois, which was the largest city in the state at the time that an army special forces a secret for service, and they were printing their own money, more money. Money. More my Joseph Smith, just waving his arms around who's coming with me. Also, by the way, they also send out there soldiers to harass terrorize local politicians that an open policy of raiding neighboring settlements the refused to submit to their profit. They fought multiple wars against state militias, and then when a printer in a nearby Illinois town, tried to alert people at the kind of crazy shit. The Mormons were doing Joseph Smith, Senate his army to burn that guy shop to the fucking ground. Cool. What's, what's that old saying, don't pick fights with people who buy our sin gasoline by the barrel? Is that even if you buy ink by the barrel? Don't do arts and guys. No, so Joseph Smith was no stranger to being arrested. But in eighteen forty four after burning down said printing press, looting, and burning a bunch of settlements and declaring open war on the state. He was arrested for the last time he was shot and killed in a Missouri jail on June twenty seventh of eighteen forty four. And there are a lot of different stories about who killed him. And why so the official Mormon position is that it was killed by Lynch mob motivated through peer religious bigotry, on the other side of the spectrum some people postulate that he was killed by a contingent of the Mormon army that was working out of surreptitious direction of future Mormon leader Brigham Young. But one way or the other he was shot to death, but most importantly, literally everyone agrees. He tried to stop the bullet that killed him with Matt. Did magic shield gesture, but failed got shot, and then he died that is more history. One of the few times, those two things overlap. Yeah I bounce back at you. You have to fall down you fall down. I'm dead. Are. So normally this is where these kind of stories end. Right. Like the charismatic leader of the cult dies the cult disperses but Mormonism was lucky enough to inherit a second. Charismatic leader at just that moment, or at least the faction of the ensuing schism that sided with Brigham Young did the other three or four offshoots withered on the vine pretty quickly. So Brigham Young takes the demoralized remaining Mormons west into unsettled lands, looking for the paradise that dead Joseph Smith promise them, and what they found instead was Salt Lake City Utah now you right? So quick reminder on the geography of the time, this is the eighteen forties at this point. The actual states, ended the Mississippi River. There's a big blob to the west that shows up on maps as just unorganized. Territories, Utah was to the west of that. Settling there in eighteen forty seven technically that was still part of Mexico until the war wrapped up a year later. I love the like of all the fucking places you choose to settle picnic next to a massive undrinkable water, so yes. Like. So that to everybody, it's like, okay, well we're here. And we are in great luck if you have a sore throat, but also hoping never get thirsty. What will be easy? The good news is will be easy to brining. So. Obviously, the US government didn't look super highly on this group of polygamous larcenous murderous. Warlike. Seditious idolaters declare open war on them multiple times. But they did have kind of history. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah, but they did have one advantage when it came to dealing with the Fettes they were white sea at that time. Utah wasn't so much. Unsettled as it was fully populated, but with brownish people and the federal government. Yeah. Right. Right. Obviously didn't want that. So despite their reservations, they literally took over that land, despite. It was kind of a gamble. So. All right. But then. Okay. So where I was go though, is compromise of eighteen fifty president Millard, Fillmore, officially creates the Utah territory and selects Brigham Young as the territory's first governor, so Mr. young. We're having trouble with these Mexican people anything in your holy book about Mexican people. We just had a whole war with those skulls that. Head. Where'd you even have those? My name's Millard. All right. So now the Mormons are legit. They're setting up a government that has been generously described as a THEO democracy. Oh, yeah. So we have now they have elections technically, but it doesn't matter because they'll vote is a block anyway. And after the elections all the church leaders will just get these quasi political appointments that happened to correspond to their ecclesiastical roles all convenient selling if you're a judge, according to church era, pointed, as probate judge that kinda shit and since the territorial legislature was virtually entirely comprised of Mormons, all of those appointments are hastily ratified. Oh my God. What's his title is his title cares? What is fucking title, and he's just they're not to be Brown. Well, we can't call director in charge of being white. We can't do that. So suppressant then. That doodle do was in two thousand sixteen. Alright. So this kinda shit, plus the open practice of polygamy made a lot of people in the federal government nervous. So in eighteen fifty seven then president James Buchanan, sent a contingent of the US, army to Utah. What was called the Utah expedition? The stated goal was all about exploration, and surveying and stuff. But the real goal was to make sure that there was a presence of federal troops to keep the Mormons from losing their shit. More until losing their shit. Just one more Taryn is magical t shirt off, like hulk HOGAN. Well, yeah is the response to the expedition the Mormons promptly lost their shit. I don't know about the t shirt thing but probably and probably said the N word on tape. It works. So did you'll h wells, the Lieutenant governor of the Navajo lesion issued the following instruction to his army, quote on ascertaining Keleti, or route of their troops proceeded wants to annoy him in every possible, way not by knocking on their door at nine AM. Yeah. Crumbs in their butter, squeeze their toothpaste, the center down there, recycling. I like crumbs whatever the other. The quote continues use every exertion to stampede, their animals and set fire to their train's burden the whole country before the butter. Semper. And on their links, keep them through sleeping by night, surprises blockade the road by filling trees are destroying the river Ford's where you can watch for opportunities to set fire to the grass on their Winward, so as possible to in Ville up their trains, leave no grasp before them, that can be burned. Jesus man. And quote. Yes. So with that order a conflict began that later historians would the Utah war. All right. So looks like we are rapidly speeding towards the only time in history that Mormons were interesting. So I'm gonna need a breakthrough marshmallows wear a little something we call apropos of nothing. Hey, teen forties heath. Hello, eighteen forties ally. So did you change your mind about joining my religion? No, no. I have not it's not my thing. I don't want to it's amazing you get a bunch of wives. Okay. I see what you're doing. What you're doing. Don't. All right. Fine. Touchy subject. Let's, let's say some of us have lots of wives are and look that sounds good. But just doesn't seem like it's for me. Getting a wife. No, no, no. The, the religion is not for me. Oh, well, if that doesn't convince you, you also get to knock on people's doors before noon on a Saturday. Sorry before win. Noon noone Windsor is that like during the lifetime hours. It's it's in the first half of the day that sounds horrible. Yeah. Maybe tough on, you busy, schedule a can't, what am I going to? I don't know. I don't really think I can think of anything I can do to convince you now to join our it just doesn't sound like it's my thing anyway. Yeah. I mean, honestly, you're probably right. I mean early in the book aide says that all dock skin, people are evil so I can imagine it would be pretty. I'm in tentatively. Go. Hey, eighteen forty's. He hey eighteen forties ally. Would you like no, I would not because I believe in equality, and I am not a racist. Thank you. He this, this isn't a sketch. Yes. It is. This is where two characters. That's sketch sketch. Go keep going. There's no joke is just unicating the joke from the great sketch. It stays in the show. Go continue sketch. We are still sketch. You're right. He you have too many positive qualities to numb. I do it's would be so hard to pick one. Right. You do great sketch. And we're back when last we left the Mormons, they declared a thumb war on America. What happened next awesome for the Mormons or super awesome. Of all the people it was more awesome for the Mormons than some. So it's important to emphasize that the conflict was only called the Utah war in retrospect, I at the time, it was literally just a US army trying to go to part of the US, while a bunch of zealots shot at them from the bushes, and set fire to their goats. It's not like the citizenry of the day would have gotten more updates from CNN, if it had been a declared war, but as it stood there was virtually no way for anyone outside of Utah, or Washington DC to even know something was happening there. Really the elites in major cities might have read about it in the newspaper. But the average person probably never even heard of Utah at this time. Oh, kind of like Puerto Rico right now. That's yeah. To be entirely fair. I've heard about Utah and I still don't care about right? There was a war. You wouldn't okay? So now that brings us to the Baker Fancher wagon trail, so we have a group of pioneers, mostly from Arkansas that hadn't obviously heard anything about the Utah war but had heard something about there being golden them are hills. California gold has been in full bloom for years by now and well of trailing off in eighteen fifty seven California. Still beat the ever loving fuck out of Arkansas so somewhere between one hundred twenty one hundred and forty of them gathered together loaded up their wagons, and headed west via route that was going to take them right through southern Utah. Ooh. It's going to be difficult. Men, though be deprivation in despair, dysentery, murderous natives privations starvation. They'll be endless tedious lever, only broken by moments of heart rending terror. Many of your loved ones will assuredly perish their pain and anguish hunting, your days, while terror stocks you at night. But, but we're leaving Arkansas, though. Yes, you had me at this. Bankers from Boston instead of farmers. And of course. Okay. So the entire state Utah's on edge at this point a word of the Fed's moving in and filtered down through the territory and along the way to pick up some wild exaggerations, a lot of Mormons were under the pressure. The impression that the feds were sending in an army to exterminate them. And of course, this was all exacerbated by Mormon teachings, which encouraged Mormons of their church, too, not only distrust, outsiders, but said it was okay to just steal their shit. Yeah. Like their virginity. Come on. Prima knocked is a compliment again. Compliment you guys would be in weird about it. All right. So the Baker Fancher party makes it to Utah in the summer of eighteen fifty seven where they're promptly refused. Entrance to Salt Lake City, or I mean they're allowed in, but nobody will trade with them sell to him, boredom, or buy from them, so they push off and head south along the old Spanish trail, this is when the Mormons decide that they should probably kill all of them. Now, the story that the Mormon historians will tell you relies on the dubious notion that bunch of southern settlers, not being directed by Brigham Young. Mistakenly thought this was a group of soldiers disguised as pioneers, than had come to, like, sabotage the Mormon war efforts from behind enemy lines. I guess. Yeah, but this relies on us believing that those settlers thought that some of the soldiers were disguised as toddlers. So ruse. I feel like in reality. It's a lot more likely. The Mormons were so xenophobic by, then they had no qualms about murdering children, if they came from elsewhere another possible explanation for this is that the Baker Fancher party was fucking loaded and had a lot of shit worth stealing. Mary ages murdering age. That's on your magic plate somewhere Garin somewhere in there. Shooting little kids, and dress them up in tiny little soldier, onesies. You never know heath. I mean maybe one of them had a bomb in their sippy Cup. Anyway. I'm very brave. But I feared for my life, clean shoes. All right. So one way or the other the Mormons at least have the sense, not just right up and say, hey, we're the Mormons were here to kill you there. Polygamy and shit at already made them anathema the bulk of the country and stories of them, just openly killing travelers, and looting, their shit would all but guarantee of full military crackdown. If wasn't already on the way, so they decided to attack the pioneers, in red face stuff up. Hello, white people that I am not. We are going to you. Now Indian Lee. But wouldn't you have a native American accent of out of the red face massacre? You. Get. All right. So now to be fair to them. They actually did manage to conscripted couple of genuine native Americans to join their party, and, you know, maybe write a little closer towards the white people. So they won't see that we have construction paper feathers in her hair. Actually travelled out there to trade with the native Americans. It was the original tea p p. So on September six the Baker Fancher party stops at this grassy mountain ringed, meadow known as mountain meadow, got freshwater good grazing. It's a real popular stop along the old Spanish trail. Now, they're playing sounds better than Salt Lake City. Absolutely. Yeah. No kidding. It turned out not to be somehow. So their plan was to stop their recuperate for a few days before heading out of the Utah territory's for the next big leg their trip, but on the evening of the seventh the Mormons launched their attack, and for six straight hours. They asked them if they had read their Jesus fan. Rich. This yet. What if I came back time could I come back later. Man being on mission is really changed over the year. Fucking mellowed out. I mean, not in South America but everywhere else. The pioneer circle the wagons, they literally and chain them together and shit make an impromptu defense. And in the opening salvo seven pioneers, or killed another sixteen are wounded, but ultimately, they repel, the first wave and settle in for a siege. I know this isn't the focus right now guys. But I could swear, those are white guys in red paint, is that. Time steve. Come on time. Sorry. Sorry. It's just bothering me. Right. All right. So the Mormons still disguised as native Americans kept them pinned down for five days. The whole time the wagon train of steadily depleting store ammunition food and fresh water. But for their part, the Mormons are also losing patients. They weren't expecting a protracted siege. They the longer, they kept this up the more likely it was that the US army was just going to be on this road anyway. And fuck him silly over it. So local Mormon leadership starts to break down it becomes fracture with some people. Wanting to call off the attack and others wanting to escalate it. And this is that weird moment where the sunk cost fallacy and murder kind of come. Yes. Often than you'd think way often well in for a yeah, yes. Just described religion right there. All right. Penny in for a pound of flesh. All right. So, but obviously after five days of this shit, you know, the pioneers had piece together the fact that they were not being attacked by genuine Indians way. Then the fact that they were going like, hey, y'all this eating to be running out of bullets was probably obvious. The Mormons have been openly hostile to from the second that they entered Utah. And by now the red paints gotta be fading scraping. Mormon switch up their plan. They're walking up to the wagons to attack just like we are Indians dressed as Mormons should they are not in yet. I sure. Okay. Shut up getting close. So all right. So the Mormons decide that they have no choice. But to kill everyone in the party that was old enough to form long term memories grandpa, totally safe growl, so no totally. Because I wasn't there. So. How is grandpa and Noah different? I'm just. Grandpa doesn't do as many drugs. Your grandpa? All right. So it's Friday September eleventh. Never forget. Two militiamen approached the wagon train under a white flag, and with white faces, and once it's clear that they're not going to shoot those guys. They send in the negotiator guy who told those two to go. First of this is a brave fellow by the name of John D Lee. So Lee says, hey guys look we were gonna kill ya. But you turned out to be harder to kill than we thought you were going to be tell you what I'm gonna do for you. You promise to turn all over, all you weapons to me, the guy that's trying to kill you for the last five days and I on will escort you to the edge of the Utah territory. And if anything needs to be shot, I'll shoot it while I still have guns. I'll come back when we get there, and that same negotiator later wrote the prequel to the art of the deal. The book of Mormon alright. So as shitty as this dealers, the pioneers don't have any choice, but to take it there settlers, they're not soldiers running out of bullets, their children are starving. So they take the deal and hope for the best. They leave the safety of their encampment the Mormon separate the men from the women. A signal is given and they shoot all the men dead as for the women children. Well, they were also shut dead. But by a different militia that have been hiding behind the bushes. They needed ambush the women and children. Some guy just got mad, clearly, it was just like you guys never let me do an ambush. I wanted to ambush. I mean, we learned that you need to ambush women and children from the Waco episodes. Now. Okay. So to their credit, the Mormons did leave a few very young children alive. The kids who are too young to tell anybody. What happened? We're just taking on a first-come-first-served basis among the locals who needed more farm labour. I guess. Oh. At least they didn't get put in cages, I guess. Silver lining. God, dammit. I want old timey field hand kids. Minecraft. Saying things were better back then. I'm just saying that back then things were better. Or it's this long as you're not the ones getting shot. Yeah. Nobody says about today's kids that'd be useful. True. It's gonna point. All right. So the militia then sets about hastily burying the bodies in concocting, a story, that would blame this all on the native Americans. But the fact that the Mormons openly auctioned off all the parties belongings at a local church made that a really hard sell the upside is that killed those people. They baptize their spirits until God to let them all live on their own plan. That's basically. No, that's basically takes his backs. Bitch and ever since. Favor real. All extra walking. You guys still have long way to go. All right. So the exact death toll here isn't actually known but it's generally accepted to be between one hundred twenty and one hundred forty men, women and children and children as young as seven, by the way, a venture -ly seventeen of the kids were recovered by the US government and returned to relatives in Arkansas the civil war happened between those two events, though. And there's no way of knowing if that's all the children, they stole. That's just the way they could identify in all the people who died in the mountain meadow massacre, represent something like eighty percent of the casualties of the Utah war. Yeah. So, you know, like all, but one American war, it was mostly people killing civilians than, than somehow losing, and then calling it a war. They started off calling the war on drugs war, but other than that. Yeah. No, because of the ongoing war, the federal government could investigate the massacre. So the first people to report on it. We're just the Mormons will ultimately concluded that they were very fine people on both sides. Thank you. But about seven months later, the US wrap the war up with a series of concessions to the Mormons that makes it really hard to say, the Mormons didn't win this war. That's the would you don't get concessions, if you don't win. They won right? Yes. But yes, absolutely. We still war to the Mormons the United America lost award. Okay. Like they'll say that ultimately, they won. But no. Like the fucking US got nothing out of it. The Mormons got all the shit. They wanted ultimately the only person held up a countable for this massacre, even was John D Lee who was apparently acting on his own no matter what reality had to say about it, and he was, was not sentenced an executed until March of eighteen seventy seven we killed the messenger. We literally. Buddy. That was there was just like, hey, John. So. You know, you remember that. Awesome. Like how do we party? We're all like let's be native Americans pay respectful the indigenous cultures. Verse. And then you just you were all like great idea. But let's slaughter everyone that doesn't have a wristband. This next. All right. So I should note that one of the biggest lingering questions about this massacre as what involvement if any did Brigham Young leader of the Mormons at the time, have, well that's impossible to pin down. But given the historical evidence, it's way more likely that he ordered and directed it than it is that he didn't. And some of that evidence is like, what I witnesses and participants said, thirty years later when they couldn't get in trouble anymore. So for their part, though, the Mormons did eventually get around to admitting that they had some culpability for the eighteen fifty seven massacre, and we're very sorry about it. Twelve years ago. What's y'all right in two thousand seven that's when they made it that they had done some of this. I'm sure that made everybody dead feel. Yeah. Well, right, right, exactly. They're like, you know, after hundred and fifty years, we're starting to think maybe there wasn't. Give it some time and no if you had to summarize, what you learned in one sentence. What would it be think twice before you slam? The door on those mother fuckers. I thought going into so are you ready for the Mormon quiz? O if they've got the gust of bicycle there. Little asses out here, I've got a fucking PowerPoint weight, and by the door for. I meant from the panel. Oh, I'm ready for that to Georgia. I was just dying for them to show up and deal with no every day. Rooting for that, so hard. It never happened. All right. Noah Mormonism is a totally real and legitimate thing, and all religious ideas deserve, our respect except a note. Premise, you'd think this would be obvious or see. This is literally why everyone being as well armed as the actual military is a terrible. All right. Okay. So it can't be because that's suggested I assume that there are facts, so basic as to be obvious to the average person. See we'll get me more Pissy Email than I'm gonna go with a the fuck off one. Sure what the hell, I know Mormon origins are best depicted in which feature film, a it happened, one Laima night. Jacobs latter day. Saints. Oh Lee high school musical. Knee fight club. All right. Even be talking about this S as something of an expert, actually, on Mormon film. I can tell you that Lee high school musical is at least as close to a real thing. Self driving cars are at this point. I watched that movie and the remake, and it was boring ins in insane as our Mormon origin. So I'm gonna go with C. Correct. All right. Last question. True or false following the death of Joseph Smith in eighteen forty four Brigham Young added an oath of vengeance to the Mormon initiation ritual, that said, we will pray for God to guide us in avenging the blood of the prophets on the nation of the United States, and that vengeance oath was not removed until about thirty years later, a true, B false, the only way that could sound more like Brigham. Young is, if you said he was skinning, a live horse, Weli, set it, so I'm gonna go with. True to actually be false. They didn't remove that until eighty years later. Oh. Nineteen four the twenty one in the twenties. There were like. Profess events that blood on the entire United States America are we still done that, like we got it. We can race that. Now check we check it off the list. Yeah. We'll. They were. All right. He is the most Mormon. So he wins. Excellent. And next week I would like to get an essay from Tom. All right. Well, Tom Feazel. And. Ally, make you for hanging out with us today. We'll be back next week. And by then Tom will be an expert on something else between now and then you can listen to know NC SEL on their podcast. Grump in Sundays at eight AM. That's so hard. Amazing. You should check out, Tom and heats YouTube channel what what we eat, as soon as the copyright strikes comedown listen to my blog. If you'd like to watch me, slowly come apart at the seams. And if you'd like to help keep the show going, you can make eight per episode donation at patriotair dot com slash citation pot, or leave us, a five star review everywhere you can that actually really, really matters. So do that please right there on Joan do it. Yes. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, check out past episodes, though some social media or check the show notes the shoulda checkout citation, pod dot com. I already told you, I'm gonna keep the second one in the show. I know you said that I just wanna watch you do it. I'm gonna watch right now. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. There. See. Right there. Yeah. Okay. Well, now hit publish, you didn't hit publish it. All right there, good. Good jokes. Good. Okay. You gonna reapplied it without the second sketch, you packed your SIM. Stab you.

Utah Joseph Smith US Brigham Young American government Noah Mormonism Salt Lake City Tom Feazel America Joe Smith Marrone Baker Fancher Arkansas John D Lee LDS president Pearl Bosnich Audrey meadows
Trash Pandas  Murder Among the Mormons

PodcastDetroit.com

1:21:11 hr | 4 months ago

Trash Pandas Murder Among the Mormons

"You're listening to the podcast visit. Www dot com. I tested troy dot com before information. Hi everyone welcome to a brand new episode of trash. We're going to be covering murder among the mormon among the mormon which is a new netflix. Which who first off. who knew. Oh oh yeah. I i actually did not. I had no idea that. I was alive when this happened. And i have no recollection of these events. Your honor like i when you like. You would think it'd be like huge ass news. This is crazy. Yeah yes so. We're gonna be talking about the documentary. I'm lindsay one of your hose. And i am joined here by my wonderful beautiful amazing cousin lawrence and my wonderful beautiful amazing co host. Dave did just happy to be here with too good to hear his happy place to and not just because i'm behind a microphone so but again disclaimer. For the love of god go watch The south park all about mormons episode. Because i feel like that truly sets the tone for how insane in the closet episode. Scientology dum dum. Dum dum dum. Yeah so and that's the thing like so like an that episode is what teaches you like. So you know the phrase My guide you're talking out of your hat. I mean most people say talking out of your ass but the original phrases talking out of your house that comes from joseph smith because his whole shtick was all. I got these special magical plates in these seer stones. But i have to put them in this giant hat and i look in the hat and then i read the translation to somebody and so he was bullshit in the. That's it's talking out of your hat. That's where that breaks from. Welcome to education and stuff but like so that so yeah but so. That episode is amazing And like as over dude mormons effing weird but like this was the south park guys. They did the whole book of mormon broadway. Play was an offshoot. Because because i was so successful so popular right scientology one too because that one was really i mean the mormonism faith is one wild. I mean there's a lot of colty character and the hate mail comes rolling. It's like i get freedom of religion. And i'm totally cool with it but when you start exploiting people in that way so that was the best. The very end of the south park episode is when I think it's yeah. Kyle like is telling off the mormon kit because the whole thing is like a mormon family moves to town and he's telling off the mormon kid about like dude you know your religious joke and it's based on bullshit. None in and the kids like dude. Here's the deal like i get. Yeah you're absolutely right like it's total crap but you know what at the end of the day is happy and we get along together and that's all that really matters and like you're more concerned about like judging me because of what we like. What book. I i listened to the did you gotta loaded. If we've got a lot what was it. You gotta grow up to do buddy. I'm writing Trevor noah born on crime. And it's so funny because he's talks a lot about the colonialism that came into like south africa that i am and he was like you know they were all about shutting down like these african tribes and like the religions. They were practising but when it came to jesus a guy turning wine and or water into wine obviously. That's real. yeah it's like a magician. Imaginary is better than us god. Here comes this runway for those who don't know so mormon so the whole home whole church is based on There was a guy named joseph smith Who according to the stories when out into the woods In this is this is the story as he tells it He was visited by an angel. The angel moroni or And told him to go out in the woods and find these golden plates Which because the bible's wrong And and didn't tell the story right at so The book of mormon is supposed to be the third and moat and only accurate book of the bible where jesus is caucasian and and And and it was born In america i would. And and all this jesus and All all native americans used to be white right until one tribe turned against jesus and he made them read. Oh my arm also. Oh it's it's not just it's not just a cult others though the mormons are just as racist as the rest of like hardly. I need diversity within the mormon church. They're all white. They're all blond. They're all very very area. Yeah so good so great that you brought this up so this story actually takes place in salt lake city in nineteen eighty s and It begins with his brief overview of mormonism and We find out there is like within mormonism. There's like this divine mandate to preserve history and so mormons are really really enthusiastic about finding these rare documents and every religion has this like the vatican. The vatican archives are ridiculous of stuff. But like this were for us to newsflash this is like the eighteen. Hundreds like more just came about relatively recently it history. Yes absolutely. so there's like within salt lake city. There's all these like dealers and these rare document finders And you can. You can actually end up making a lot of money Trying to find these these rare documents and and what have you and that's kind of like where our story begins So as dave mentioned like early mormonism is filled with treasure. Treasure tales and In mormon are artifacts and mormons everywhere trying to seek them out and so This leads us to one of our major things is is our our main guy Martin men trying to find the as rare documents and of course doesn't set anyone off that he finds them all right now oakland. But here's a huge thing like okay so like the i did i give again. This documentary could have probably been an episode or two shorter. Let many get that out of the way but they do a really good job. Because by the time episode four hits. I'm like oh. I think about halfway through episode three are are. They gonna tell me that this one like that. This is where this is going Because here's here's the thing like so we get There there's some like news clips in that kind of stuff in the beginning About these bombs that have gone off in salt lake city and There's and people and it's it's and again which is why i'm like god. Why do i not remember. This is before this is before the twenty four seven news cycle. Because it's one of the things they talk about is. The trial is like the first thing that's actually broadcast on. Cnn was just a fascinating. Yeah so we're introduced shannon. Flynn who's a rare document dealer. And i put a i put eight. Am winnie the pooh winnie. The pooh for her. Because of lauren he okay so like we see other clips of hamlet younger and he has like a normal voice but he always. He has like that kind of like i. I hate to say this. Because i know them probably gonna get a whole bunch backlash work but he kinda has like that like Sultry leg i'm a. I'm definitely a rapist. Like i kinda voice to him But then when you see him as like an older man he talks like winnie the pooh very breath ely spur. Mark hoffman best friend and he's very emotional a a He's a kobe better. he's very very very breath. I i just. I don't wanna make him a hero. Yeah right yeah the answer that question. So and and then we hear about mark kaufman. Who from shannon. Flynn says he's basically a rock star in the document finding world and we come to find why eventual and compares them to indiana jones. We i'm like like talk guy up like he's not a good guy he will but we don't know that now we don't but i'm already putting in to to me. I walked and how did not like i should. I should know by now that whoever is being held up on a pedestal episode. One right is going to be the giants. Yeah right so then we see Dorey hoffman who is marks wide. And they're together and they're they're going through when mark finds has i rare document and he's a student when he finds his first rare document. Written by joseph smith himself called an the anthon transcript and basically His wife sits down with this book. That mark found and she's like flipping through it Table it's a bible. Yeah and opens up and she finds a rare document like put inside of yes. So she's yeah. She's flipping pages and she's like. Hey i think there's something stuck between. Yeah in the binding. And so he's oh all right and they and they find this anthon transcript and basically it lights has fire to find more after this He finds all this crap and basically validates. The lack of mormon is really what like it comes down to is. That's like validating some of the the stuff that the mormon church is trying to like while and we'll get more into. I don't wanna get super interesting because he is actually mormon. So that's really interesting. But i feel like he had to like build the trust though there have been so he had a building that was like a role mormon. So we're talk about like with like my soon we talk about like ethos pathos and logos and when you're you're building your house you're building your credibility and that's exactly what he's doing right now is he's building his credibility With this i in which we don't know at this point in the documentary that this is a fake we'll find out later more but The story So apparently He was a bit of a g e a genius. His friends say with his ability to like recall. And remember minute. Details about things I felt a little attacked. I was like. I'm like i. I i'm not gonna lie. You definitely could be. But that doesn't mean that you're mark off the other things that the bible the bible that he finds this stuff inside of is said to be joseph. Smith's sisters granddaughters bible. How did you get your hands on right. So so the the providence the pr the providence of the bible is actually legit. And that's the thing so like and that's why it makes the dame the the and that's the dude anybody like every liar knows that the best way to get a lie across cross is to shrouded in truth sir you know if you you know the whole truth and allies thing like you know you if you if you if you have a big if if you have a big enough lie and but you have enough truth truth around it to make it seem implausibly. It's gonna pass the sniff test. And so that's the thing so i mean he was and that's the thing he did do a great job with going to these old bookstore and finding all these legit you know what could have been period documents and period but you know bibles in that kind of stuff and then finding these books he could have had a great career just being legit He wouldn't have man. Put cover that later so i wrote a note story of the document finder who found the church fired because of what he found. You have anything more about thatta. The next thing that i have is basically that Brent metcalf asked to do a genie genealogical research on the documents and then it was like one hundred three seven years old and they found more and more stuff like that he was like finding and that He was cracking like old letters. Down and like with postage seals. And that's like how he's on and that was the thing like so he did dude like he he newest shit like so he knew like so end so he knew he always has the inside trade. Right that's the thing. 'cause that's the thing like you start meeting these other guys who like. Apparently there's a whole little there's a world club mormonism about dedicated to documents and you know the history and all that kind of stuff and so you know they're like god you know. Yeah this guy knew what you know. What seal meant that was likely legit what you know what you know. What binding is they. And they talked about that. Like he like he would walk into a bookstore and just book and just kind of walk around because he knew what color color of the book. For what size because they printed things different sizes specific binding stuff so yeah so he became a genius at the so the next thing. I have Twenty seven thousand nine hundred eighty three. This is the salamander letter So it was in a box where the gold plates were and mark hoffman of course found it And this is a huge asset deal because it basically completely questions the mormon creation story So that's that's the whole point is so it's this letter basically says no. It's not the angel morona. Joseph smith matt. It's this white salamander that he met in the forest. Who told him this story. What kind of drugs are you on your believe guys documenting. But if you're gonna believe that a guy disappears with twelve for three days and comes back and the wife has no questions. When i was like when i was trying to think about like an analogy of like how huge this was the immediately is like the crushing creation story. Like imagine some document being founded and all the sudden the like the dead sea scrolls the apocrypha whole entire creation. Story is just completely uprooted. And so of course like the mormon church like doesn't want this because they're like an angel sounds way more legit than allen. Yeah right yeah like are you fucking thing. We're like lizard people right. Are you kidding me now. Now now it's going to be on fox news right. Yeah jesus christ this way airman your nightmare fucking pr nightmare. Twenty two thousand eighteen kiss. God damnit lizards. So ron docker singing and i said l. o. l. He was a news anchor. So there's this news anchor at the time named ron docker and they like show video of him singing these mormon songs and he is talking about mark kaufman and just like how huge this discovery was. I mean it really rocked the mormon world like an i n. That's the thing like us not being mormons. We don't understand but like at the time it was like holy shit like our whole foundation of this religion is completely iraq Well and of course. So and here's the the important part of this is so the church buys yeah. The salamander letter lacks happens right and they don't let they don't allow anybody to look at it. They don't allow anybody to study it. They don't it's note. thanks that's going in volt cell. Apparently this letter was from a guy named martin harris and the letter aside. Joseph smith was led to the gold plates by white salamander. And this contradicted the church billy. So who was his. I believe so and again at which the south park episode does a great raid. Lays out really well so the way that this the way this happens is so joseph smith comes and comes back into town and goes to this guy. Martin harris martin harris is a very wealthy dude And so he's joseph harris. Joseph smith goes to him and says hey. I found these golden plates. That i'm going to put into this hat and what i'm gonna do is i'm gonna look into the hat and i want you to be my scribe and be my translators that you you write this down and and so that's so that's that's right right and so that and that's that so here's the fun. Part of the story is at one point in time. martin martin is married and martin's wife lucy So they've care about her later. And so so martin lucy is like why are you encouraging this ass. No way in hell. This is real. And he's like no but why would he lie. It's the angel in god and yet idiotic and so lucy. Harris's give me those three pages that you just transcribe sure him and i'm gonna put them up here and you tell him that they've been lost and and then let him translate it again because if he's reading from the tablets it should be identical right and so martin harris goes back to him but he's he's a he's a johm. Sorry the i lost. I lost papers. Yeah and joseph. Smith does that makes up this. He's oh i had to go prey on this and so like any any comes back next week. Dude god is really angry That that you lost those pages in fact. He's so mad. He's so mad that now. I can't translate them this way anymore. Now i have to translate them this. Like abraham thing the burning bush. Oh totally talking can break And so are you so of course. Smart mines like oh my god. God's angry of course. Mastery i just i. I wish there was like. I would love a periodic like painting of of of the role that lucy harris gave the hard. I like when i mean he like when martin's so that's that's who martinez in this story. Yeah okay so. Then we're introduced this steve christianson and he talks about how he loves the church but he feels the need for intellectual transparency when it comes to the history so chris steve crenshaw christianson is one of these rare documentary document collectors and Yeah so he loves the church he obviously wants to keep the tertia churches ideals but he he agrees that there needs to be some transparency anna so siv authenticates the letter and he buys it for forty thousand dollar forty thousand dollars in eighty five. Yeah that's a lot of money got that's a of change even now. That's a lot of money but yeah but in eighty five. That's a that's a of back to the tickets a laurean or whatever don't know so The salamander letter creates a lot of problems for the church and the president of the church. Hinckley i forget his first but he relieved kinda looks a little bit. Like the guy from poltergeist too. I love pulsa not to like the creepy guy that that show like. Yeah what the he had outside the that guy yet here by holy shit all i could think of releases the letter and everyone lose because it challenges the mormon history and the origin story and the entire faith Steve christianson ends up donating the letter to the church. So now they have total control over this letter. So then the next thing that i have an i don't know low. You can correct me if i'm like skipping ahead too far but the next thing i have is just Who he's a coin. Collector and mark hoffman Would calm into his store With stuff for him and he had like it was almost like He would ask al. Alvin ross basically like what are you looking for. And then whatever he was looking for mark hodson leahey mount right exactly. Suddenly mark hoffman fines. So he tells alvin not. He found this rare collection in new york city but he needs help financing to buy and he needs one hundred. Eighty thousand dollars to buy this collection and this is called the mcclellan collection and The latter in there was from joseph. Smith's wife and that details. It was actually joseph smith brother who i found the gold plate. Glad you have that. And this would be devastating to the church because we have to remember that statues joseph's right not only that yes okay that also The mormons are so huge into genealogy like this totally throw off like who would be in charge of the church who would be who would have power. who would not have power right. I mean this would question all of that So the church outbids marksmen for these quote unquote mcclellan ladders hundred thousand. They didn't outbid hundred so he's asking for one hundred and eighty thousands to finance to buy alvin brought. He was asking alvin. Ross for this money yeah for the into a guy who owns a Mclean clock he's got a coin in town sort of you know he always finds like the old mormon script kerr the old currency that they used in that kind of stuff. He's he's we've got this whole great relationship going and he's any comes from and he says hey you know. I found this thing mclellan collection. It's gonna cost one hundred eighty grand a by. But i've already got the mormon church on the hook right to pay three hundred right. So can you front me this money right so that i can go by this and the race split it and he was. He was really generous with all he was going to split money people. Yeah no. I know. I know i'm not saying i'm not saying that but i'm saying fly when we get to that. And what is it the freemuth. Yeah oh yeah like yeah okay so then we go to october. Fifteenth nineteen eighty five. So this is when the bombing happens at the judge building and one man is killed so there was a bomb in a box. It was address to the victim. And it was steve christian son and Save christianson was killed by this bomb Nine fifteen that same morning another bomb. This one killed gary sheets. Wife cathy Gerry was seved business partnership so there's already a connection there so save christianson is killed and then though wife of One of his business. How killed at their house. And they said that it was equal empowered to sticks of dynamite. Yeah just like pretty intense well and then when we find out later to is like there is a nail nail was only in the first one though. Was it in both. I don't know but it was just the first one because the second one okay. We'll get more into this but the second one was supposed to be like a dummy and it was like a fifty fifty chance if it would go off well depending on right. Well that's alleged batch legend happening so then we're not to already so this picks up showing the bomb that hurt. Mark hoffman so Number three this is number. Three and this mark hoffman was hurt by this that it goes off in his car Thought that it was in the hood of his car. I think it was just like in the car. Well so the way mean the way they make it sound. They don't really know Bomb goes off in car. hoffman boom And has severe injuries. And this is where this kind of the craziness of of of mormonism comes in is 'cause then you get that side guy who's like. Oh i i. I had a bottle of oils in my pocket will wear garments undergarment magical underwear and so i the oils upon him. And i commanded him to live. He's saved his life handedly sprinkling him with oil and committed manning him to live in safety sickle. We don't need hospitals or doctors just more. Will we just need water. We need the oil or water. Somebody just carry like a salad vinegar and oil. Just what's in this case. I went to the vatican. And when i was in rome and there is like a bunch of like shops right outside the vatican just like tourist hawks just by like little samples of holy water like the pope. Because i totally. I sure on it and you're like only one her like just sprinkle. It insert earning. Either straight a sprinkler. That i wanted really badly. And it was of the pope and his hands went like the water from your and i wanted to ask. I went back. And then i talked to the person i was like. Where'd you get that from. And she was like yeah. It was stolen the next literally. She had it for one day. I was like that's what's going to happen to me too so no okay so after. The mark hoffman bomb goes off and he's he's incapacities incapacity. He's not dead. He's alive is picking up about the letters that he had on hand because obviously police. He's got the mclaughlin in his truck. Right right so they start looking at gordon hinckley. Because he was buying the latter's investigators believe the church is hindering. Oh sorry that's an accent. A but anyways so gordon hinckley was going to be buying these letters so they start like putting together like okay. There's this group of guys right and they're all involved in this this trait of documents and there are some people that obviously have more interest in it than other one's shirt and But investigators start to believe when they start looking into who is doing the bombings that the church is hindering that investigation because they don't want these letters out right right. they don't want any questions about what they're preaching. Well imagine yeah like you said earlier like imagine if like your face has now all the sudden like complete completely shake shake right and like some people might be like. Oh that's crazy but my entire life was devoted to the right idea right exactly like you. So we're we find out a little bit amount mark. So william and lucille are his parents. William and lucille hoffman and Very devout they are dead. Seems like a pretty uptight dude vows. So they were upset about the fact that marc like had books on dinosaurs that he was showing his kids because it promotes evolution and it directly contradicts the word of mormonism so they are very very 'cause they're all like the world is only six thousand years old right so mark. Mark advocated a further church on a mission to england in nineteen seventy four and. This is where he's hurry picking up rare mormon books and reading anti mormon publications. Because that's part of the mormon faith you're supposed to go so he basically at this time starts questioning his faith and the mormon narrative because he starts reading some of these like anti mormon publications on this mission. And what's really interesting and something that i didn't know about mormonism was that In england apparently they have a lot of mormon documentation and a lot of mormon literature. w- so it wasn't rare or wasn't a weird thing to go into a bookstore in london. And find like some mormon artifact at that all you have to remember like from hunt from a historical perspective. You've still got even though like we've just fought the revolutionary war and there's still a heavy british influence here in the country and so you still have a lot of old money in this country and so to them being able to bring those. I'm not gonna lie. Like part of me believes it. Some of it is bring me a look at these silly americans thing. That is exactly what i was believing. Today i was. I was i was. I was trying to go. Paul mccartney because palmer paul mccartney has that ring ding ding ding. Do he's got back. He's he's got that southern london thing because you don't want to go because irritating got an all about the cockney march anytime call okay so so this is like i thought this is where he basically starts but we learn even though like he went on this mission. He was questioning. The mormon religion waiver for like thirteen or fourteen. Little crazy which will find out more well so october nineteenth nine thousand nine hundred eighty five. We are introduced to jury day. The hammonds the homicide investigator. And i love this guy. Like he's just so homicide hamasaki. God it's all like he's so like he's very scenery rio. Just tell he gives like fuck of the mormon church cares about this or dull and care about it. Like i just want to figure out who killed these be right like job exactly like that's who this guy is and i love that so they set up. I love this. They thought the war room and they're looking at different theories of how this happens though in the war room. You know it's just like that like it reminds me of. You've all seen the mean from arkansas. All the reds are high in pictures. And that's the best part being like by the way most annoyed at this point. That like netflix's has they're like there at the start of it. They're like Violence and smoking like we have to warn people that their smoking avenue. It's every little thing birth control or what. Give me a cheeseburger cigarette smoking cigarettes on that. I'm a man reggie sandwiches lot right. Hey of cigarette nineteen twenties like mouth mobster but obviously so. Yeah he's he. he is a like. he's one of the few people that i've seen in the course of all these documentaries that we've watched i would love to sit down and have drinks like dude. Here's a bottle of scotch. Tell me all here's the thing is like okay. This be probably the most interesting case he has ever worked like. I'm going to sit down with some homicide. Investigators give me ramirez gave me. Give me the fucking. La dudes who dealt with like socio and not famer kaufman eight. But i'm just saying like this was probably they're only one and done. I mean what is salt lake all the time that there's need we'll actually rare even for like actually like actually hold up. Wait lindsay's about demands. Fine well actually. Well man's plane tut. Bundy spent a lot of time in l. Because his girl was mormon and he went to the mormon church so i just wonder like did they have any influence. They had to have known after back and watch the goddamn sorry constantly all right so they in their war rooms. They're investigating everyone. They're investigating al-russ third investigating matt are investigating the guys that. Yeah everyone everyone so everyone is investigated so shannon flint a call. There's a call that comes in that. Says there are more bombs air right. I'm not done yet. Yeah and and here's the weird thing that kinda was a throwaway thing because we get that randomly mentioned that we never hear. I don't even have that. But i do recall that very well but like but like did nobody follow up. I would like to call it. Red hair dangling. I'm yeah daintily. You've got some daimlers. We got some dangling with cockney in and dangling participles so shannon flynn winning the boo Was not removed from this list. He had intimate knowledge of the business dealings and he was a close friend of mark Is where we start learning about. How close are saying. This is one of my favorite documentary. Is we have these flashbacks to like the early nineteen eighties. When he's in his toyota and they crash and they have like ozzy's And so that's the funny thing like like people that weren't alive back. That don't understand how cool i am are dole but i get it because i was like okay i get it like this was supposed to be a big thing at the time. But he was just like a so funny out and they have early one. Let me get my like wearing medals. Zeitler have like a giant. We're mormon man i like. They have a cigar sticking out like go along with the mormon because keep in mind. We're like we're we're still like a couple years before miami vice so life ferrari hasn't become a thing. Yeah and that's the we do and like he was like. Oh yeah he's like you know so. I had these hookups like mark. Like i want you. I'm trying to get my head. 'cause marks making ridiculous money off these documents these that he's finding and and he was a guy he's like i'd love to get my hands on newsies and so this guy's like well i know where we can use trade and i feel like i'm not doing like i'm i feel like i'm overselling it. Because he's much more high pitch tomorrow he's like i'm berry whiting talks mark. He's like your asthmatic. Great aunt may no right. He definitely has like an south. Like an esophagus share. Yeah there's something happening so yeah so like. They're buying these automatic weapons. They're riding around. It is blue toyota not only with the members of which. Hey you know. I wear one of i say shannon ends up being arrested for an illegal firearm. Also as as they're going through all this as a person of interest and they go to his house with a search warrant which is when they find the uzi and so now like that's a federal issue. The other thing too is like when they're interviewing with us part he they straight ask him like you know. Are you involved though blond. He's just like no. I'm not any starts twitching. And so that was like i was like. Did they like that like he like he always does that like he has like a history twitches outta has some texts but they were. They were literally like around them until this part he starts doing it and i was like it just looks. Yeah but it doesn't make him look nor and it sucks because in reality like you know somebody having a or anything like that doesn't act. We know that he's innocent right. But you know when you're being interviewed. If he was doing that he was being interviewed. The strip or or when you over thinking about trying not to look guilty then it might trigger that you know what i mean absolutely. It's stress related. Is being asked about if i murdered people's i if i made bom of horrors i'm gonna and that's the thing i've also had. I've got you know i went on and looked at different things that we're talking about it and everything and all these people are like well he starts twitching then and i'm okay but the magic of adding is that you can make it that way. Somebody looks like they're not doing that. And then suddenly import that when the time matter absolutely no would you're looking for that dun dun dun dun time when you're looking for dunton done you put that in. So so not. Only was he ross. Had for the illegal firearm. But he also had like an anarchist's cookbook. Yeah about reaching bond. And that basically didn't they basically didn't find enough evidence there to produce more because there were no no materials like he just had the. But here's the deal. In one thousand nine hundred eighty five. Yeah didn't have the anarchist. Everyone had a copy of that. You've every i really wanted to try to get laid. Had a copy of the girl. You're looking up dealer. I know how to make a bomb. If i wanted to ask building been wearing long black backout. I've been i've been wearing long. Been wearing long black trenchcoats since high school. My god so to me. This was just like you're guilty. Google search right. You know what. I mean literally. Yeah exactly like you. Owning a copy of that book is you tiling me like everyone your interests. I think the people our age though like associate that with like columbine we do it came out then. And i remember that. That book was long here. And i didn't know many many years and i do. I do associate that with columbine. Yes but long before those trenchcoat long long black trenchcoat to wait. Hold on wait totals. Did you see like there's a documentary out from ill either dylan klebold or harasses. So we combine on amazon crime. And it's about like how her kid was basically raised in like a happy healthy home owners. We are columbine one. Yeah okay so. I'm interest so let's watch that. Yeah ok okay. Sorry okay so basically the basically they don't find enough evidence more charges but witnesses in the judge building. Okay so the day that the bombing happened in. It happened in the judge building. They saw a clean cut guy with a varsity type jacket and it was a green lettermans jacket and this was put on the news and as soon as this was broadcasted out. Everyone was like mark hoffman. Wore a green. Varsity flashback back to that one guy and he was like you could see and for people that are really good job. Like being dramatic with this big. He had like that really heavy like almost as if he were in that moment going dude. I totally realize that was jacket. Yeah like that's that's always loved. Brent matt klaff like i think he. He was so amazing. Because like you could tell like when he was a younger guy I probably would have been like you're addicted but like you could be totally. Tv interviews. Looks like yes totally a chance. After this happens like you could see how fucking devastated pushed him and so so bryant was one of those people that was like. That's mark hoffman. So then we see the funerals And it's it's so fucking sad. I mean just like kathy though wife of one of the intended reception recipients of them bam like they had children and this was just that was and that was the whole thing that we're talking about that but he was talking about. Was that dude. It could have been the family dog that the way and like so fucking sad and so Then we see mark's wife talking The please go to search marks house. They find the green lettermans jacket There were still out of questions. So like what is the motive. They were like okay. Here's the thing like anybody that went to this. High school has had that rain jacket so we can't completely like your like whoever went to that right. Had that january and it's a small. Like i mean salt lake city. It's city but it's relatively could've off at a store about we look richard ramirez. What was he buying from a thrift shop. I mean like you know it could have been like anyone so it wasn't enough to like nail him at that time And the motive sell wasn't clear because there's so like we uae. Would he want to do this. This doesn't make such that. Was that the the other detective on that. He's the guy that keeps on dude. He's a guys he's a i get it. I get where you're going. I know the scoop is. He's like we. There's no motive right. There's no he's got this deal he's got deal like there's no he's financially set. He has no reason to be mad at these anything. It would have seemed like the church would have been trying to silence hand up and so they didn't understand like what is the frigging motor. He had a golden opportunity there to make it seem she'd had put these out And flubbed it. Yeah hardcore because he probably could have at least had them running around with the jury for a while to get like like not normal. Yeah right not so track. And i was like why. Isn't he doing anything about that because in reality like there was that opportunity there that he could have liked pending on them and he'd done it like personally. I think he was just ready to be found right. Some people just do that wrong. Dave oh my god okay so new york city one thousand nine hundred for this. We're introduced to justin schiller who's a gallery. Owner and mark was starting to branch out from mormon documents He found the oath of the freeman. Which was the first documented print document printed in america originally the original and he happens to find it in manhattan bookstore weird and the documentary heard the document was tested specifically the ink and it could have been sold for around one point five million in the nineteen eighty s And then we find out that mark with living a much different life in new york city then what he would do in utah and so Obviously mormons follow various roles with drinking and Caffeine unlike any saxon like anything and so when he was in new york city he was living a completely different life and use of baller when he was in new york right right and he was living the high life because he's rolling in cash and he's got all this stuff going on and i think this is where we hear the story that he was impossible. I it's impossible for me to get drunk and like no just lineup. The shot sixteen doubles and he appeared. Sober yeah up to his hotel room rates out. Yeah you keep up those appearances. I don't think i could do that. I could do doubles and then pretending league blocked. Well they said within an hour. And i was like an hour and then goes i literally upstairs and just so laughably. I'm talking with. I was hanging out on zoom with an old high school friend of mine last night and we and i was telling the story. There was a mutual friend of ours. Who had this weird belief Because i remember from one of the parties. When we were in high school he would drink somewhere from third to a half bottle of olive oil because he believed he truly believed it would code his stomach and then he would sit there and just pound shots town shots pound shots pound shot loose stool and no and then he would but then he would put then he would disappear for twenty minutes. Puke is brains out shit his brain because he thought it would like because he thought it would coat a stomach and keep it from absorbing into a system and we just sit. And i'm not saying he was a smart man. I'm just say because here's the thing like within an hour it does take time for alcohol to absorb into the system. Like i don't want. I don't want to get back inside. You know i understand that. But but but fifteen to sixteen like double dude like that. That's alcohol boys that's impressed. That's you're dead and especially if you're coming for from a world where you don't drink ca well you don't drink when you're in utah. Your or england dingley cheerio or what was your accent just want the heavy caucus you more thoughts. That was awful. Oh somebody stop okay please. could i doubles. I'm not dead yet. So anyways so We find out that marked really. I was gonna ask like where do we. I'm close to needing one do. We need to take a quick pause for refills. Whatever you guys on do. I'm fine right now. But let's we're almost done with us opposite. Let's so let's continue mark. We out really like the highlife. His wife sad. It was basically like feast. He likes the highlife he likes to boogie. Likes to go fucking. So basically his wife said with him it was like feast or famine. Like they had a lot of money in or they could not afford to feed their show. And that's the thing like when you when you're dealing with as any entrepreneur can tell you when you're not with a steady paycheck so okay great. I found i spent six months right with nothing coming in. And then i find this document worth one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Cool one point. Five million or one point five million. Whatever and okay great. Yeah so investigators figure out that the documents may have been forged and they hit figure out how this right so but this would lead them to mode so the church. Send the salamander letter to the fbi. Also the church relinquish the slaughter and this is where we mean. Amazing george rock morton. And he's a forensic document examiner from the fbi and he used to work for the like one guy. He's the life of the party. That's not. I'd i'd love to just pump a couple shots into him and just watch them lose but also he used to work for the fbi because part of the back story here or part of the story here is that the fbi authenticates the salamander letter. Okay we're gonna do that. So he briggs and so turns out. George morton is a mormon. Yes so he wants to bring in like an outside i because he's like listen. I wanna be like unbiased fucking. I'm vested in. Like i will find these documents forge but i want to bring someone else. Who's not in. So he finds he brings them this guy. Williams flynn and one of his questions. Like whoa what religion to you practice. And he is like well used to be catholic and he's like perfect. I loved. I loved how he described how he went about his work. Where said look if you come to me and you tell me if you come to me saying the document israel i'm gonna start by proving it's fake if you to me and tell me that i'm gonna come at it proving. I love that. Like i'm like that's a good ambassador. Like that's how you should go about your business. And so they both examine these documents so fast. Forward december one thousand nine hundred eighty-five five two months after the bombings. The oath of the freeman appears to be authentic according to the fbi And the sale is pending for investigators. This isn't good news because they're like what the fuck like the fbi. Fines is walking authentic motive. Right i a million dollars coming in. And then they're like okay so or he's got seven hundred fifty thousand dollars. What it with. Shelter guy yeah right. So the fbi confirms the salamander letter is a real okay. Fbi you just lost all cried all cram program so mark hoffman revealed So we out like hoffman rivals in being on the news and he was just like eating all of this like he was like faulk yahoo. I'm on the news. Turn it on wanna watch it like so. We already see like that narcissistic personality forming so th rock throckmorton disagreed with the fbi and the salamander letter and he was basically like disgusted with the fact that the fbi found this letter to be real but he he was like you know why. I'm so going to investigate the slaughter. And he noticed that the ink on the documents had a cracking fags so they compared the documents that were older than hoffman. To one wins ones that had handled and all the docs he had handled had the cracked inca fact but the other ones did never already in the church did not right so they find So this is where they find. The plates That he had used to forge the documents for the oath of the freeman and basically he went to like an antique dealer or like somewhere like that and they had made them these they had made him these plates that he was able to forge and like us in his four. Yeah they like made their own copy telling us right the howitt process right and so this is when he was finally charged like they realized that this like oath of the freeman. These are forged We found were. You made these plates because they found it somehow through Oh i remember so He had came in with cash to pay for these plates but he was missing like sixteen cents or like something to odd amount of change and so he wrote him a check for the that adamant a change for those plates and so that's when they were able to trace it back to the check wasn't mark hoffman's but it was like his is. It wasn't like his. It wasn't actual mark hoffman. But it was like in an alias. He had been using so they realized like okay he is forging these documents So this is where we get to episode three So mark pleads guilty Five to life and agrees to tell investigators everything which is like the investigators are completely shocked. Because they're like well. I think that agreeing to tell them. Everything had everything to do with the fact that if he didn't he was facing the death penalty. Yeah so which seems kind of excessive but at the same time. I'm just like it doesn't seem excessive when he killed two people. Sure but i'm like i feel like Yeah like lesser crimes. Go for more. Yeah i get happen and get or there's i so We find out like in his childhood. Like marcus friends. I like one time they go out. And they're going on a treasure hunt and he finds like a jar of coins and the story is that he like us slave. He went out into the woods. He planted the sheriff coins and then when him and his friends were out on this treasure he knew where to look and find the serve coins and that kind of like ropes them into like this idea of like i can find these things and how like. Yeah getting this like notoriety for being able to do some and that's what he said is like fooling. People gave him a sense of power insecurity so he started at a very young age of the in queens and he said i was He was pronounced a genuine by the us treasury department or these coins and this just gave him like the ego to be like. I can fool the us treasury department. I can fool fucking said if the treasury says it's genuine is by definition jenny right. Yeah and i love. Does he said this quote. And i just thought like wow. This is fucking weird. He said if something seems to be true in comes to be accepted as true then it's true and i was just option versus reality. Right like wow. That's just crazy. So then we see his wife at dory hoffman. And she's basically like at that point she didn't know he fooled her and her children and she wasn't a part of any of this and he staged the anton transcript with his wife Which is the first Major document that she found in the bible He sees that he put the document in there and basically was like left it out on the kitchen table for her to flip through and for her to find this document and He didn't feel like he was using her told her he did a number he. Yeah he he. And i told her he was. He made the anton transcript and then was like just put it there for her to find in the league and he could tell how shaken she was and he was like. Oh i'm just. I'm i'm just joshing. Just talking to my hat actually authentic. So within their house he had a room. He locked her out of end. She thought it was just like a messy room. his and she was like cloud. I don't have to clean it. Like whatever i get out in time for that So what he made was made to order. Investigators said it seems it miraculous. No-one somebody says i'm looking for something. Run this person and then finally he right exactly. Yes one right before and what. The investigators was like greed causes people's overlook things like you think you're getting your hand must rare document. You're going to overlook one honestly. The halley interesting point by the investigator is that it's the greed on both parts that make this kind of thing possible right. It's the greed of the person creating it and by the greed of the person who wants it so brunt mack matt klaff you know. He had no suspicions and the scared him because it caught to the heart of who he was that he could just be easily deceived by someone. And i was like i get that like that. Would mass with me as a person like if you were able to deceive me in that way. I thought i was about people better than that. Like that. would fucking mess with me. Especially because brunt matt metcalf went on media and was defending his ass. Oh yeah oh there's no way no. He's a good friend of mine. Oh yeah so. Mark told brent that he had become an atheist at age fourteen so all the soft on mormonism was a show and so it felt good for him to fool them when he was able to When people that were considered professors. Right i mean is like he's he's like it feels good to fool people who are like literally supposed to be the best right investigating this thing. Can you're saying that it's authentic then. It's athens tech right right. So the fallout of hoffman. Sacraments caused a huge questioning about the very basis of their faith. Obviously we talked about this He i wouldn't go so far as to say a wanted to change mormon history and then he goes. I take that back. Maybe maybe i did. And his plan was going to beat a forge one hundred sixteen loss pages of the book of mormon which is like a huge lot of words it could have sold for seven or eight. That's the crazy part is when they start talking about how he forged ex. We'll just how good he was at seeing writing style and being able to immediately mimic it. That's crazy so he's he was able to forge most things within one to two days and he would pull down the ink with a vacuum sills called foxing to see. Oh that's interesting. So to create the aging effect the ink and he would create environmental damage to the documents themselves He would use a five gallon aquarium and one side of a warrior would be inside of a jar of water with salt and then the other one be opposed inside of it and then the paper would be inside of that ingraham. So it caused like oxidisation. And like rapid oxidisation. Yeah so yeah. He fucking annuity was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing. July one thousand nine hundred five four months before the bombing Basically we find out that he squandered all the money that he had and rust. Who in bala new russ who had invested the money in the mcclellan documents never got the money honestly. I feel so bad. I use a financially ruined. Yup we sell his entire collection to pay the debt because he borrowed money from the bank to give it to him as alone assuming that he was going to get the money interest so october. Twelfth nineteen eighty five three days before the bombing rustling christianson. Were putting pressure on hoffman to get colin collection and basically we find out he had created like this ponzi scheme a fake documents to get him out of like this posher so in that was the you know he. He branched out into other stuff. Oh yeah so awesome. I've got this document signed by betsy. Ross mark signature to cover this then night. Before the bombings brent sad mark seemed happy because he wanted to go see him at his house. Mark seems happy and at peace No great harm was done. They might have died in a car. Accident the worthlessness of life or whatever. That is what mark hoffman sad to the investigators. Flake lighting knew that the next day he was going to go and kill people right but basically what he was saying is like why should i be held accountable for that. They could have died in a car. One thing that you said that was really really Like haunting me was when they decide. Oh like the Don't feel bad about like the victims and all this stuff and he goes well. They're not really victims because they're not hurting right now right. Yeah no he. He gives their dad's so they're it's like that's it here sociopath for sure so this is when they go back and they do a reenactment of the bombings and gave me so much anxiety because we watch him in his jacket. I mean obviously rain accident. Like i said but we watch him. Go up the box to kirstens. Doris app he. He weighs the backs down. He walks away. And then we see christians and walk up with like a newspaper and like a lunch and like going into the office. Any regular days sees a box picks it up when we know it happens. So the documentary did like a really looks for job of showing like your life can change in science not his secretary well earlier eating heating care. You didn't give shea. He didn't give a shit dropped. So it's like he's hoping that it's going to be the first person to see it. So this bomb was wrapped with nails and he practiced the bombs in desert. So this was completely premeditated bolshaya. Like this wasn't like he was practicing. He was practicing how to kill someone. the bomb that killed kathy sheets was a diversion. There was he said there was a fifty fifty. Chance would go off It was a game four and he didn't care who a story history was. Well i i you know i i kinda rigged it might were fucker might work. It might not work that dude. Screw you said. It didn't matter who was who it was a child. Dogra strange right and then a third bomb was not a suicide attempt because they thought that it wasn't i. Yeah but it was actually supposed to be met. Maybe possibly meant for brent ash ashton So he thought of killing associates of his. Luckily run ashworth stayed home that day. I'm suggestion of his wife. Because i had a weird guy like she was just like i don't know i don't think you should go into law office. And he listened eight pizza and watched he was living his life. Yeah honestly morals story. Listen to your wife wife. Happy life bombed and don't get bombed. He doesn't basically like what we learn from. These interviews is. He has no remorse for his victims at all. Like basically like they would have died one way or another so i took their life. Actually they ask the question. Do you feel remorse and was yeah and they're like well but do you feel remorse because you did it. Do feel remorse because you got caught now. Because he's james. It's because i got caught. Yeah pretty honest. He practice also. We learned he practiced passing polygraph test for like a long time and he passed some like in which is so. Yeah why we should not talking us down like how starting at twelve or thirteen years old. So considering how old he was when he was arrested he had like twenty years to just practice passing thing right. So mark trice orchestrate a hit within prison to some of the port of pardons. Because he's a fucking more on criminals they smart. That's why you're pros as far so And he wanted to. He wanted to kill the board of pardons but also george thank martin and His wife set him with divorce papers while he was in prison. So those we like that was that was one of the interesting things like all through the dock. They've subtitled her as his wife. His wife is wife and it's not until here former wife You like okay. Just no spoilers. I guess i guess that would bother me as why that would bother me. Like don't put me as his wife. Now i'm not nine Early at least Mark stash sleeping pills and in prison and he got off blood. Supply was arm conscious. Here's the thing. So i fall asleep in weird position sometimes because i just like i'll fall asleep on the key or pass out on the couch. Blackout whatever happens. You're buying us after this That was applied. And i've fallen asleep on my arm before. And like but then i'll i'll wake up and i'm like why do i have a t. rex. Why like my arm. Like why demings out behind and i'm like yeah like what i guess yours phenomenal by the way But so i get oh yeah. He took all these sleeping bills and apparently that kept him from waking up when he was laying on his arm and it permanently cut off circulation the point where like it he has no use has handed arm now right so he can never use the hand that he used to forge which is just like however speed bittersweet He didn't die though. That sucks so. I'll see taxpayers. Still pain for the motherfucker to this day. No one knows how many forgeries are still out there. Floating around and that was the crazy part is like once you have. This gets into the whole concept of you. Don't you don't want to admit that you were duped like because it's it's kind of an echo blow that you were taken in by this and like and you look like burnt man class while so that's the thing like throckmorton was like dude. This guy was a genius like the fbi the fbi. If it weren't for this one random thing that we noticed the cracking and we started going down that rabbit hole would have never been able to identify so crazy though too is like throckmorton talks about. He was like. I did not accept the fbi as like version of what happens. I knew something was. I was like he. And he said he was. Like i was pissed off. Fbi like i was like you didn't do enough and like so. Now i'm gonna fucking upper. I'm gonna do this. And so and like you said that's the thing is like how many more floating around out there that people are paying tops talking dollar for once in the smithsonian that that's fake i mean there's gotta be some there's some it's like davinci code like you know like which like that's the part of this like you have to give him credit is he would go to the steps that he took and the lengths that he went to find age appropriate paper to like to create the knepper. Swear to the swiss felt this specific mix of ink to do because it looks like an ink like specific matter right because like when we forge classics like there are things in paint. There are certain things that have happened like so if like any paintings that have happened after nineteen forty five have certain radiological signatures on them because the radiation from here shema nagasaki went around the world right and so the true masters paintings don't have those so like oh did you. So you have to go find materials. So that's the thing so in order to do have sadly were. There was like a thing where they showed where like he would open up old books and like out out the paper that he was he was on. How with that. Not how was that like. I'm just like i would love to pick the brains of like these. Fbi guys like how was that paper not influenced by something like here sheena or like. How was it like preserve. How did he was. He was probably just fucking gambling with like whatever. So here's the thing if you like a book that was printed in the eighteen hundreds right by. It's still survive. Michael signature like find any other book from the eighteen. Hundreds yeah amical signatures are the same so let me cut a page out of this book. Right wash out the inc which is a standard process reporters in that kind of stuff and then put whatever i wanna on it. The paper matches they'd passes. That test passes this test at passes that could because then he's using the super acidic inc and then he's using the vacuum to pull it through and he's doing the query thing freezing so like he's going through all these have to be very smart to figure that out. Criminals would just take ten percent of the energy zach. Took thing to do the right thing would be such a better why he got something like as soon as the. Us treasury department certified. Those first questions ahead foraged. That just went straight to his fucking hide and he was like i can fool fucking if i can fool the us at church before that like the first thing he did was full the us treasury when he was like fourteen fifteen years old. Like as soon as you do that. Can you imagine the fucking ego boost i can. I don't have rules. I don't have roles. I can do whatever the fuck i want and i can make incredible money off of that. It's insane it's fucking insane. I will say that watching this documentary. Whoever they had doing the calligraphy that was super satisfying. So thank you that was. Thank you for doubting Hoffman he knew how to do that. I know but they like showing like video of very satisfying love. I love it every second of a thank. You hear the best bar right. I always want to write with like a feather. An i know with phase. Where like i had the calligraphy i have i currently do and i love them. I love it. It's super cool. Could never learned. I'm left handed. So i smear ink so i didn't know you were left handed huge girl. I feel like always forgot. I was left handed and they made you made me right handed. So now you're ver. I can like depending. It's weird depending on the topic. That i'm writing on my uncle like that was like at a time in history where his whole teacher was like wack. No you right but obama's handed to and whenever you see him signing documents he's like this he's trying to avoid right his trying to avoid it and i was like that. Is that like literally to deal with because otherwise it's just a massive ink. And then i have the incas spots all over my hand but anyways it's beautiful and i thought this. I thought it was a really good documentary. It could have been always shorter. We will always say that you know but the only time you'll ever hear girls say that no actually. No that's wrong. I don't to keep going for hours and hours nine. I got mine. We're off got wonderful. Finish up quick rare. All right go get the rag everyone. Can you get the towel. The nasty talent corner studio postie. God were disgusting love you. Thanks for listening or we're going to. I don't think we're going to do ninety eight today. I think i yeah. We don't have time to so we'll do okay. Well due to episodes of ninety day next week And then we'll let you know what we episodes by then well as well. Yeah because we had a skit three episodes of night. And that's okay. We'll be fine. I mean and stuff ni retired out. We'll figure it out. No yeah we'll let you know what documentary we're going to do. Thank you for joining and we love you. We love you.

mark hoffman joseph smith mormon church martin harris mark kaufman ron docker Mark hoffman salt lake city gordon hinckley joseph Trevor noah alvin shannon winnie Dorey hoffman Flynn thatta Brent metcalf mark Joseph smith matt
The Third Corey - 183

The How-To Heretic

1:37:39 hr | 4 months ago

The Third Corey - 183

"Fred stood out you heretic. I'm dan i'm doug and this is your users guide to life on the outside yes sir. Leaving religion is the first step into a larger better world of abuts. it can also be a scary world things differently. Now never fear. That's why we're here. We're your audio and with help from good friends and experts all sorts of fields. We're gonna share the stories and seek the knowledge to build a great life after all. You only get the one that we know so you better making gentlemen. Hello hello hello. How are you hope. I'll just just so so good. Good i i am reaching out to you from my 'isolation my solitary in tower in toronto in it's wonderful by that's right i look at this. I can actually leave the room that i'm in. I unlike you cannot under under federal mandates soon enough soon enough anyway. What a show despite us being a divided by border we are not divided by anything else. I don't know what that means. But today i am going to talk about some very scary geometry. I however am going to talk about a cool guy in a really really stupid book. The accidental hero of a book. Right exactly yeah. And then i am going to take on the anti vaccine movement a they exist so quick note. We realized that we all had so much great information this week. We're running really long so to any patrons who jumped in this past week and i know we have. We haven't i know we have to. We want to beg your indulgence to push that off till next week and we will give you all the love then but we just wanna keep the show under twelve hours today. So yeah if everybody's cool with that. Let's do it uncle dan. Well hello You know when. I when i was younger and i was in elementary school. Think maybe junior high school. I read the quote by lincoln about better angles of our of our character and i never heard it spoken out loud so for several years i was left trying to figure out what exactly that meant. You got the wind. You got the one under your arm and then the elbow one just assume that whatever angle you have you wanna make sure it's a right one. Yeah he was very into ninety degrees. But i think oncle marquez. Some something to talk about the not so great angles. He's are not the great angles. These are not the better angels of our nature. Let me tell you so you know we try to have some fun on this. Show guys we. We try to laugh at the absurd and silly every chance we get. That's great but sometimes when you sit out to make a podcast about the comedic side of cults and craziness the colts and craziness outweighs the comedy just a little bit and while there is some funny stuff about today's very peculiar subject. There is some very very not funny stuff about it as well. So let's laugh and then let's talk for a while Content warning there are references to sexual violence and sexual violence against children in this segment. Help me if this is another anthill thing. I am leaving the podcast. It feels like it's gonna go that way but it doesn't go all the way there. So hey yeah so. It's not graphic descriptions like it was with the hill kids just a mention of it so but it's kind of impossible to tell the story without it so be warned so we've talked before on the show about the satanic panic that not really over nationwide hysteria of the nineteen eighties and nineties. That drove this city at country. Well that one. I'm not there at the moment. I'm in canada. Out of its uptight. Mind and saw masses of false accusations arrests imprisonments and other assorted bullshit for a primer on. Please refer back to episode twenty three well sort of satanists that actually rape kidnap and murder people at random that were the shadowy villains for this decades long long. Cultural nightmare didn't really exist but a pin that for just a minute. The sweetness that were around were mostly adherence and imitators of the church of satan. The brainchild of the hard to take seriously anton levay the church of saint was really instill as just another expression of sixties counterculture and Rejection of the stuffy conservative stifling american culture that preceded it The church of satan is mostly a hedonistic movement of pure individuality inspired by among others. The works of ayn rand you can listen to doug segment on her. What a wonderful person. She wasn't episode ninety and while many accused them of being kind sexist and pricks online. They aren't kidnapping anyone's babies for human sacrifices in the forest. That's not who they are right and more recently. Of course most people will be familiar with the satanic temple featured in last year's wonderful documentary hail satan and co founded by lucian greaves whom we spoke to an episode sixteen loosen in the satanic temple are the farthest thing from the murderous cannibals haunting the long dark american night of the nineteen eighty s. They are in fact. Merry pranksters and first amendment heroes haunting southern and square state legislatures with their truck mounted bathroom at statue trying to fend off the worst accesses of creeping christian nationalism child-murdering bad guys. They are certainly not that we know about that. We lucian. you've been served your on blast. Keep it tight lucien. they They they've used our -rageous religion prison religious presumptions in this country as an act of judo. Against those who ceaselessly abuse it so well played the satanic temple. Well remember when. I said those be movies satanic warlocks who kill and rape at random didn't exist. Well it turns out they kind of do and just to give the devils lily. Aren't madly violent. Nazis isn't that fun guys get. You had me at ardent madly violent nazi. So today we pay a visit to the satanic that could cause that should cause some panics. The order of nine angles or the oh nine a. If you're nasty. The order of nine angles is a pretty weird little outfit for a variety of reasons. The semi mysterious people that have authored. It's literatures literature and occasionally spoken for it have purposely surrounded it in loads of mystery and autobiographical legend alleged to have been founded in the late sixties by an unnamed woman in the west of england when she brought together three separate satanic temples and covens in the early seventies. a man who called himself anton long joined and in short order had risen through. Its ranks. those being neophyte initiate external adapt internal adept master grandmaster and immortal to become its master longhand wrote thousands of pages laying out the philosophy and magical with a k. practices defining the order as a highly secretive left hand path practice to reach the gods of the a causal room. It's a morpheus anarchistic and totally decentralized they follow what's called the path matthaus the path of suffering to come to know themselves to become masters of the causal realm and eventually masters of the aac causal realm as. Well i shall explain below. It wasn't really until the nineteen eighties. The oh nine. A really even made itself known by publishing articles in already existing occultist. And far right nationalist magazines it also began distributing its founding scriptures most notably the black book of satan and its own magazine ferrier named for the fierce wolf of norse mythology much of the literature was written by anton long and an artist and musician who went by christos beast but has been identified as richard moult. I should also also note that. Most scholars and journalists who studied nine a far more than i have identify anton long as very fascinating and peculiar man whose real name is david miot some disagree including my it himself who vehemently denies any association with the oh nine a going so far as to challenge journalist who said he was to a duel with the nazi dagger. Sound like something someone from the. Oh nine eight i mean. That's just he protested to little but the preponderance of evidence seems to support. It is in fact my it. But we'll call him anton long for for the most part in here Unlike the church of satan or the satanic temple the order of nine angles very much believe in the theistic evil satan and with him pantheon of so-called dark dodds including a sinisterly female version of baffled. Matt who in their version looks very much like the hindu god of destruction kali Who will bring about a violent revolution that allows for a new system of racially superior tribal warlord governments called the imperium and that golden age of hellish violence and total destruction of the former magin nazarene as they call it basically their term for judeo-christian of the magic nazarene order that has enfeebled and poisoned the natural violence of the human spirit preventing ascendancy to uber manche. And then in this mad max. Version of the future will set out to conquer and colonize. The galaxy led by the dark lord. The dark. god vindicates into a neo-pagan hitlerian interstellar satanic eternity. You had vendex. Where do i sign. That was a that was quite a sentence. A lot Yeah i was trying to distill it down to the the essence. And i think i got there so i think so. I didn't understand any of what you said. But i think you nailed it so the oneida believes there have been five aons of men each one lasting around two thousand years the primal the hyper boren for some more. Wholesome nazi content. Check out our segment on hyper-area episode one forty eight the sumerian the hellenistic and the current one. The western each ends and a few hundred years of increased authoritarianism and militarism and this a owns period of dictatorship they predict will begin sometime between nineteen ninety and two thousand eleven and will ask them tell twenty three ninety so any minute ten years ago now right at that point will You know up until this year. It seems like they kind of had a guy you know he figures very very prominently with a lot of these neo nazi satanic people like trump really. They saw as the guy which should come as no surprise. So at that point we'll we'll commence the sixth grade age. The a on a fire their own new satanic timescale begins in the year eighteen eighty nine. The birth year of middling watercolor colorist turned eager. European real estate tycoon adolf hitler. They have praised hitler's reich. As quote a practical expression of satanic spirit. a burst of lusa therrien lights obssessed in power in an otherwise nazarene pacified. Boring world. boy. I never thought i would hear the word zesty applied to the third reich. Yeah citrusy also nazarene being used like i'd or whatever is an interesting phrasing nazarene bay just weakened us it made us all feeble and weirdly for jew hyper violent racists. They are adamant in their holocaust. Denial saying it was a myth constructed by the magin nazarene world order to denigrate the nazis and therefore discredit them. It's so weird to me. How some of the most rabid neo nazis who foment for another holocaust feel the need to deny the actual one. Yeah no it's so crazy. So people in occult circles used to joke about the The order of nine angles of night angles as the order of no members Which is funny and true because they may be had a dozen members for a decade or more. Some people think as few as five but this gets to part of what is so different about them. They weren't really looking for any not in the normal cult since they flew almost entirely under the radar other than then my it slash anton long. They really have no leader pretty much. All their literature is available for free. They don't want money they don't want to meet you. They may be the most uncut like called. I've ever study so remember when we had my friend former Undercover fbi agent. Greg rogers on the show in episode one fifty four when dan talked to him about operation underground railroad and all the bullshit around human trafficking myths. We remember our secret. Asian man well in his career at the bureau. One of his beats was taken down. American neo nazis and he took down a lot of them And i asked him how he could keep doing it again. And again and they never got wise to it. He said it was because a they were fucking stupid and be. They were so preoccupied with taking power over whatever small group they were in so bitterly hateful of all the other groups and so consumed with infighting. They never thought to make a website where they could post all the pictures of the fed's that we're taking them down right right. i just. I couldn't believe they weren't comparing notes. Said they hate each other. The order the order of nine angles seems totally immune to any of that. There's no leadership to usurp. There's no money to embezzle. there's no power to be had by taking control called death. Ribs are just boring not boring. that's for sure cold. Expert steve. Hassen says the motivation behind cults is always some combination of money sex and power right but none of that really exists here it. It's really kind of a free open source radical ideology concocted by true believers and just left out on the dusky edge of society's view for anyone to find fucking hiep's according to china's own faq page on their ancient wordpress website. I i did promise a little bit of comedy her when when when one finds their literature one should do what they want with it if they want to become a member. They don't really have membership so they wanna become associated grape That's what they call them. People who are connected to them are just associates right right It's like gig satanism. But you're you're free to interpret it your own way or even start your own temple. Notice nexen on or not. It's up to you right and when you do that. There's no fees there's that you don't have to buy anything. It's very strange. So should you decide to actually live by the groups of what they call sevenfold. Who initiates you. Well you do dummy. And it's rather fucking tents one of the easiest. Initiation rituals is finding a secluded wild spot and laying there for an entire night without sleeping or even moving okay. Most people could probably do that. Another is to live into wilderness with zero contact with anyone with anyone else for six months the ritual of the. Yeah i have the rich. We've all seen the show alone. I don't think it's going to happen for most people at right. The ritual of the abyss has one living totally alone again this time in the depths of a cave for a month another. You're finding these caves i. There's they're they're they're here about Another is to walk alone over rough terrain covering three hundred miles in just fifteen days twenty miles a day. Which is that's dirty substantial for two weeks all this. Do you get your nazi merit badge. Well here's the other thing that's really fascinating about it. It's nobody checks funds. They have this dedication to this radical self honesty. And you've if you didn't if you didn't do it you know you failed and that's enough right. It's really fascinating. So this is some next level commitment and all you have to do to become a moment. This have the bad luck of turning eight and casserole country right right so it gets. It gets even more intense. Once you've passed those hermetic mind breaking tests. You're ready for what they call an insight role that means doing something so outside any experience you've ever had or joining a group never would have considered for at least six and up to eighteen months. It could be joining the police or the military traveling around the world on foot without dollar begging and stealing to do it joining isis seriously. You know normal gap here kind of things. Yeah this sounds. A lot. Like batman begins like a little bit does. It's like this evil kind of samurai coda right this. It's it's very. It's highly disciplined also not learning to make a lot of sense that they had no members that that part starting to make way more sense to me very few people can can pass these crucibles right or would want to or want to but some do so getting comfortable with violence and weapons training ceteris pretty normal neo nazi fair but specifically for the order of nine angles it serves a purpose called calling specifically calling of offers which is the german word for victims part of the rite of passage in self development for someone following the nine oneida paths is ritually ridding the species of unworthy garbage. This is literally part of their doctrine as laid out in several publications including a guide to human sacrifice calling a guide to sacrifice part to and victims a sinister expose and guidelines for testing of offers. You see these guys aren't just nihilist. Say what you will about the tenants of national socialism dude. At least it's an ethos right an opt for must quote self. Select what they don't. They don't know that they're being tested. But they are being watched and when an up for is called not only. Is the species less filthy but it meant like in many cannibal cultures. The murderer inherits the life force of the victim bringing them closer to being the adila uber match. The uber rich. This is not okay. Nothing nothing that's happening is is okay. No and it doesn't get better and more than a few targeted uppers have indeed been cold meaning fucking murdered by order of nine angles. Initiates more on that tick in preparation for the segment. I read many articles than one very interesting one just on neo-fascist generally in the online journal belling cat dot com by robert evans. He as an excellent quote here that could apply to so many of the segments. We do about this stuff. I should note that one of the more frustrating elements about covering the fastest right. Is that much of what they say. Sounds ridiculous and makes them appear less than serious. This is why it is important to remember that these groups have a body count and represent a real threat. There absurdity does not negate their danger and there is some silly shit about the order of nine angles. Like the fact they can't or won't get their story straight about how they got their name or that one of their most important rituals is a board game called the game of stars. They they think of it as something like the lament cube from hellraiser like a puzzle that opens up the membrane between the causal world and the acosta world Where the dark gods live. But you laugh if you see it. Because it's exactly spock's multilevel chessboard from the old star trek series right silly but these people are deadly fucking serious bright. The goal of china is chaos. Pandemonium rape murder criminality and the total implosion of the magin nazarene order to bring about the anna fire to quote from an official oh nine. Publication to acts of assault are most commonly recommended lynching and sexual assault. Jesus they ardently encourage rape as terrorism. They are also one hundred percent pro. Violent pedophilia again as a vehicle. Not only for terror and chaos but in assertion of the superior will of nine a associate to dominate the weak and the useless god. Yeah we can the useless meaning children children. Of course they are. I mean they are weak and useless in another publication. It says children must never be cold. So they they have guys ethics. They don't know they just believe they can be raped will Week so the founder of the main us us order of nine angles. next a called. The temple of blood of his lovie is a guy. Guy named joshua caleb sutter who was a real peach in addition to fashioning himself as a hyper pro north korean propagandist among a few other daffyd he was actually contacted by north korean intelligence and they were working with him and at some point they decided his just fucked in the head tweet. The north koreans are like nope can't do business with this guy among a few other daffy things he wrote a bit of ona a nine hundred nazi fanfest called iron gates. It's horrific both in envision and grammar suffices suffice it to say it paints a sloppy but nightmarish. John mcnaughton style portrait of the future. The order of nine angles wishes to foment mass murder of the intervention and endless days of child rape and torture in service of the triumph of mediocre white men. This salacious future has become an inspiration to the violent neo. Fascist paramilitary the atom waffen division whose rallying cry is iron gates. Now right so that's the future. They want horrific of course stupid without question but it has ignited the passions of more than a few hyper-violent motherfuckers everywhere. Here in america we have a lot of violent neo nazi movements. Most like my friend. Greg said are fucking idiots. Who are more likely to blow their own brains out by mistake than they are to hurt anyone else but some are not just. Here's your some of the crimes and on long's ona. Eight nine tax inspired david david copeland to play several nail bombs around the areas in london frequented by gay and immigrant communities in nineteen ninety. Nine nailbombs killed three people and injured a hundred and forty others. The british anti fast fascist group hope not hate records at least six oneida associates being prosecuted for terrorism. Twenty twenty alone here in toronto and associate of the order quote cold to south asian men who had nothing to do with anything by stabbing them in the throats in the states. Order devotee jared. William smith and army specialist was charged with leaking classified material on high explosives and weapons of mass destruction in order to kill federal agents for quote the glory of his neck religion another. Us soldier ethan. Meltzer stationed at. Us based in italy passed on information to help oneida members and an affiliated group called the rape waffen division. Who are exactly as they sound. God to ambush and kill as many of his fellow soldiers as possible. Luckily the plow stopped. He's facing life in prison of his arrest. Exposed other order associates within the military including one station in kuwait and one of the national guard who intended to use his presence at the george floyd protests last summer to start a satanic racial holy war by crazy piece of luck. He was apprehended before he can start shooting. He was also a member of the Oneida affiliated rape waffen division. That i mentioned a terror group hell bent on using rape as a weapon there. Several more known cases of murder and attempt and attempted murder and terrorism connected to the order of nine angles and groups. They have major influence over like the atom waffen division national action the sonnen craig division and the nordic resistance movement now as the order is declared not only pro human sacrifice pro rape and pro sexual violence directed at children. You may have correctly surmised that when one of the oh nine a is run to ground by the authorities. They are very likely to be in possession of a lot of images of child pornography and child rape no need to dwell any further on that but it seems to be standard equipment for apprehended associates including a teenager. Who is the youngest person ever charged with terrorism in the uk. I think he was fifteen. So what of their semi leadership. Richard moult aka christos beast went underground for several years and seems to have denounced the group. He was living as a catholic. In a rural part of england. And it wasn't until he resurfaced as a fairly prominent of folk musician. His past was rediscovered by his bandmates. Who kicked him to the curb. Although having sworn off his past he seems once again to be active in the order. And what about david. Miot aka anton long very likely the actual originator of the order as i mentioned at the top. He's a fascinating figure. In addition to kicking the lid off this nightmare. He's a classical. Greek scholar has lived all over. the world. lived for a time as both a christian and buddhist monk And in the two thousands converted to islam moved to the middle east and in fluent arabic became the west most ardent spokesperson for an advocate of osama bin laden and called for total jihad against the decadent magin nazarene order of the west. He's lived a hell of life guys. I was gonna say that. Sounds like three lifetime three completely mistrial lifetimes. But he's a horrible human being but he's also incredibly fascinating He spent ten years doing this before. Renouncing islam and moving home to rural england as well where he apparently still lives and perhaps still quietly guides the order of nine angles from his keyboard. Many people think his time in islam was just another of his many insight roles infiltrate infiltrating a group in order to raise one's awareness and possibly destroyed from within. This may also have been the motivation for richard mulched renunciation of the order his conversion to catholicism and his time in the folksy but in either case these men seem to be still at large now in their later years and despite having unleashed a methodology for very disturbed disordered minds everywhere to become the worst versions of themselves. They seem unbel- unmolested by the police which is baffling to me. Well except that the what four members there are are all in the police. Now they well. That's the thing is. They think that there's different levels of association with the order. And you kind of choose and they see they have names. There's artists who can be associated with it. There's street gangs there's Individual black black magicians can have different associations with it and they are. There's a lot of worry about how infiltrated they are into the military and police forces in the united states canada germany. Least so they're the best estimates that these anti fascist groups make is. There might be two thousand of them in the world but that seems like a couple thousand too many. Yeah most definitely so. It's a really fascinating horrible. Evil truly truly evil but very fascinating group of people right and i've never heard of them. Never got all all american law enforcement has only recently become even aware of them while they stay have managed to keep themselves in the shadow so successfully and and you know what what one of the journalists i read was talking about is they. Don't you if you come across an order of nine angles member. He's not gonna tell you right. It's a secret orders rule of fight club. Not the sloppy s. Stupid skinheads right there. There are a whole different level of discipline does not proud boys so really fascinating. But how about that raged. I'll i'm gonna sleep. Great tonight fantastic. Thanks for that. And let's move on doc if well you're a little younger than me but if you're like me you know kid kid of the child of the eighties right. I grew up with. I'd grew up with the the youth pop culture. What i was allowed to see as a young mormon which wasn't a lot like the goebbert's and he sh- he man you know yeah. Gi joe but you know what was a huge. What was a huge thing in in movies and culture at the time was the corey's right You had corey haim corey feldman they. They were writer died together. Right those two little cuties and they were just the lost boys and probably other movies. Yeah i can't remember but it was all about the corey's i remember corey wasn't in the goonies sure was that was sean asks to no no. I think they're the same person. Okay all right fair enough. Four heyman shan weiss ganz edges the same person. Yeah so anyway. I don't know if did did you enjoy the corey's daniela. Well not as much as you did. But i probably i mean you know. Only one of them made it this far and we're and the truth is while one of them did die. I don't know which one of them actually made it this far. I don't know if corey feldman who who lived. I don't know if he's the one that we can say made it because he's distance. Yeah anyway look. I am going to talk about a corey To but before we get there I wanted to talk a little bit about something. I i recently watched and i think i think you guys may have watched at least some of this too I watched as much as i was able to stomach of a debate. It took place a few weeks ago on zoom and pitted friend of the show and full attorney andrew seidel against christian gas bag and kim adventure movie bad guy. Tom trento closing statement which was beautiful extraordinary job with that. Yeah throughout the whole thing. Andrew was clear and incisive and fair in his treatment of the subject where trento unfortunately league couldn't even see or hear andrew And instead was having a totally different debate with the ender shaped straw man that he had set up next to his webcam which is that he completely ignored the reality of the person. He was debating and just plowed forward with a plan. He had crafted ahead of time. That plan had nothing to do with the extendable topic of the debate nor did he address or even acknowledge anything that the good mr seidel had said after a while the whole thing descended into chaos with trento trying desperately to trap andrew with multiple choice questions that didn't include the correct answers and throwing tantrums when he wouldn't just choose one of the options and shut up. Well how is it going to win a debate right. Exactly i wouldn't bother watching the whole thing If i were any of you though as uncle mark says andrews opening and closing speeches both knock it out of the park. So he's so he's so brilliant and and decent. Yeah and and easy on the eyes to a handsome music if you like those clean cut types. The reason i bring this up is because it is the latest for me in a very long line of moments where a believer has decided that the atheist that they've constructed in their mind is obviously far more honest and real than anything an actual atheist might say so they just ignore the real people that are right in front of them and valiantly goes to battle against the straw man army of their imaginations. They applaud each other as they bravely. Scare as bravely sleighs scarecrow after scarecrow never bothering themselves with the distant sounds of real honest arguments. Meanwhile we nonbelievers sit on our park benches watching the whole live action role play as they stabbed their dull prop swords into dummies with our name scrawled on them and then they go off to regale their churches with the noble story of their righteous victory over the savage heathens. It's a tales oldest time. And today i'm gonna prove that. I'm going to talk about an og straw man that goes back more than two thousand years. But only if you actually believe what. Mormons believe otherwise it goes back two hundred years. Because that's why. And joseph smith fabricated a pretend ancient record of jews in the americas for today's lesson. We're going to talk about one of the great characters in the book of mormon not that there's much competition corridor so core hor comes to us and leaves us in a single chapter of the book of alma for anyone stupid enough to have attempted to have read the book of mormon all the way through. You know that alma which is book. Nine of fifteen is the one where you finally lose the will to live completely Coming in at sixty three chapters. It's almost twice as long as any of the other books are boy. Horror comes in Joins the party in chapter thirty. So it's it's a brutal brutal book log i. I often encouraged our listeners. To like go ahead and go to the source material and learn stuff for yourself. Obviously but like. Don't don't read this book. not this book. yeah believe me. read this book. We're we're doing it so you don't have exactly so chapter thirty starts. In the land of zahra hemlock which was one of our favorite ones with the neophytes who are gods good white and delight some little boys and girls burying their dead after a huge with the layman knights who are gods dark skinned baddies. The surviving laminates are kicked out. The fights have some of their have some days of fasting and morning in prayer and then since they got rid of all the dark people quote there began to be continual peace throughout the land. God not racist at all. No no shut up Literally everybody was good and kept all the commandments. and shit. it's it's it's weird. That cliven bundy loves this book. Isn't it. I just had that right. Yeah strange will. And it's such a trope in throughout the book of mormon Especially in the book of alma bit but throughout that entire populations just all act as one character. You know individual no individuality or there's no fax percent. yeah there's no factions. There's no nuance opinion. Yeah the richest people were evil. The people were evil. The people are righteous fucking well and that's exactly it. This is a classic joseph smith. Move here you fix all of the problems literally make everything perfect for years then realize that you have that you have to have conflict to have a story and little they turn their hearts away from god again again right which does make me wonder how many angry frustrated grumbles martin harris heard from behind the curtain as joseph was dictating. I i imagine it to be something like this. Joseph says does the people did have no disturbance in all the sixteenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of knee fi and it came to pass in the commencement of the seventeenth. Year of the reign of the judges. There was continual piece. So it's amazing. It's amazing how long you can. You can stretch out. Nothing happened right. Exactly or martin harris is probably like hey joseph is going to pick up anytime soon right. Oh yeah yeah sure. sure sure. Let's take lunch and then we'll come back and Pick it up so anyway when they did get back from lunch. Joseph introduces the story of cora. Hor and it's a hell of an introduction comes out swinging at this guy quote. There came a man into the land of zahra hamila and he was anti christ for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets concerning the coming of christ boom. That's what passes for character building this. Yep he's new in down and he's anti christ that says bad guy yeah exactly and he literally might be one of the most nuanced characters in the book of mormon. It's to that in that moment. That joseph smith didn't invent a pre pre columbian railroad for him to tie a woman to one hundred percent. Yes exactly now. He's not the anti christ mind you. he's just anti christ. Yeah later he is. He's handed la- leader. He's an anti christ. So lots of ways to use that phrase. I guess anyway. The point is that we're supposed to hate him and that's all we know about him for a minute. Then the ebook answers the question. We're all asking which is if he's preaching against the prophecies. Why isn't he getting his ass kicked. Well now. now we get to several versus. About the hemlock criminal justice system it turns out that in ancient mesoamerica you were legally allowed to believe or not believe. Isn't that nice. And there are several versus justifying this position. Because old joseph was clearly deeply ambivalent about whether heathens should be allowed to speak or not right but the knee of hemlock landed on yes you can be a disgusting evil satan worshipping shit bag atheist if you want to perv and the good book gives a series of reasons why god wants it that way. God wants an open society where people are free to believe what they want and they have the legal right to talk about their beliefs freely. Put a pin in that anyway. Seven versus later. We're back to this anti christ. Which in this book is hyphenated with. Both words capitalized. By the way he finally gets a name the name corridor and even though we just had an entire opening arguments episode about alternative religious views in fight law. It is once again emphasized that he's legally allowed to do this. No matter how mad that makes you anyway. Core is preaching. There will be no christ remember. This takes place before. Jesus this is like bbc. Seventy five or something like that. So there's still waiting for this messiah and that there's no god and that there's no evidence that the prophecies are true. He says quote. Oh ye that are bound down under a foolish and vain. Hope whitey. yoke yourselves with such foolish things. Why do you look for christ for. No man can know anything which is to come. Behold these things which ye call prophecies which you say are handed down by holy prophets behold. They are foolish. Traditions of your father's so i like this guy feels pretty right. I'm with you great. And here's what's interesting about this chapter. Joseph smith like all the screenwriters of all of the best godawful movie episodes has to thread a needle here if you want the character to be at all believable which you know. It's a book of mormon. Why start now but whatever he has to try to make him make some sense but it can't make too much sense or you know readers might realize that he's actually you know the one who's right. So joseph smith throws in classic the classic the a straw man which is people who leave the church. Just want to sin now. This one's ubiquitous in the modern era. If you google why do people come become atheists or why do people leave the church and you find a christian websites answer. I guarantee you somewhere on that page. You'll find this. They just want us in. yeah now. Nobody that i've ever met or even heard of became an atheist because they wanted to sit no way and religious people have no problem sending they do it all the time to church on sunday. It's not fucking biggie. Right considering a source of this material reading right now exactly yeah totally. Now i will say this. There are some folks who eventually noticed that. God's rules about sex were stupid and that led them to realize that god might not be real and then they went on to have a delightful and less fettered sex life. But that's not leaving because you want to sin that's leaving because you realize that you were lied to and then sending well. Inside the central contradiction. There is that if i'm not into religion those religious religiously mandated since or not since right. It's just having a drink or get though. They often though they they will often say. I've heard many a believer. Say well you still believe you just want to send so you pretend like you don't believe also put a pin in that anyway. Oh quarterhorse horse said quote. There could be no atonement made for the sins of men but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature. I guess meeting were all just animals. Therefore every man prospered according to his genius and and that every man conquered according to his strength and whatsoever. A man did was no crime right. Yeah what atheists believe is that you can do whatever you want. And since there's no god to tell you what's right or wrong there's no such thing as crime and everything is god. Damn free parole. Yeah yup that's added wildlife entirely. It's what we're all about. It's why they're the prisons are packed with atheists positively overflowing Now regardless of that stupidity apparently a guy talking mostly reasonably about the logical problems of magic. Daddy's in the sky and wizards predicting the future was a welcome diversion in perfect step. Fortunes are a hamlet and a bunch of people started listening and liking what they were hearing and women and men immediately turned to quote committing horde. Them that's what worry orden's yeah exactly. Ooh his own. He should get a t shirt. Well that's his podcast. Exactly yeah any who core a horror did didn't stay in zor He took a show on the road. You went to the land of jerry sean. To preach to the people of ammon who used to be lamen nights They're the evil dark skinned ones remember. But here's a twist. These guys were more wise than the knee fights. It literally says that and they immediately bound core whore and dragged him in front of ammon who was the high priest who him to be quote carried out of the land. Didn't we spend an oddly. Long amount of time talking about how it was good and god or deigned. The people be free to preach whatever they want. Shut up is it really. It's a different time now idiot. Exactly literally. I guess i just love the place where they are. More wise is the place where they're going against. God's idea of how the law is supposed to go but anyway the idea that martin harris was probably from behind the curtain going. Hey you know you wrote that stuff about really no freedom of speech. Does she want to set up a theocracy. Shit it's literally this. This chapter goes back and forth on that issue a dozen times. It's it's your head starts to spin anyway. Then cora hor tried his shtick in the land of gideon and they bound him and took him to the high priest and the chief judge of the land named good dona. Now i'm i'm not. I'm going to read a pretty big section of this because it's the first time we actually hear what cohorts says and well. It's pretty fucking compelling so this is him talking to godot the high-priced you say this people is a free people. Behold i say they are in bondage. You say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold i say you don't know that they are true you say that these people This is a guilty and fallen people because of the transgression of apparent hold. I say that a child is not guilty because of his parents and he also say that christ show come but behold i say he do not know the that you didn't do not know that there she'll be a christ and you also say that he shall be slain for the sins of the world. And thus you lead the people you lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers and according to your own desires and you keep them down even as they were in bondage that they might glut. Oh the might glut yourselves. With the labors of their hands and they durst not look look up with boldness and they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges. They not make use of that which is their own less they should be less should offend their priests who do yoke them according to their desires and have brought them to believe by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their and their visions and their pretend mysteries that they should if they did not do according to their words of offend some unknown being who they say is god a being who has never. Who's who is who never has been seen or known who never was nor ever will be to me. That is a pretty shocking slam. Dunk corey i wanna come on the show. Yeah excellent work. Yeah reading from an outsider's perspective. That is some hard hitting skepticism. Yeah anyway very reasonable totally reasonable. Yeah anyway the high priest did what all believers do. When they hear a skeptic challenge their beliefs he told horror that his heart was hard and shipped back to our hemlock. Because that's good writing. Why did we leave anyway. Where if we're just going back to stand before the big boss alma skunk done done now almaz guy who's going to set things right. He's the great wise high priest who has the apologetic to put cohort hitchens in his place. First he tackles the claim that the priests make money off the labor of the people and for this. He uses the classic apologetic do not. He literally takes several paragraphs to say. I make my own money so shut up. Then they say they get to the real stuff all my ass core if he believes in god and in christ core horse says a new. Hasn't he clear although rates. Yeah exactly almost says almost starts to do the classic logical fallacy and says what evidence have you that there is no god or that christ cometh not i say unto you that you have none save it is your word only thereby demonstrating that not only does he not understand who has the burden of proof but that he doesn't recognize that his own arguments can be turned back to him because guess who's word only is also the only evidence for the other side. Then he makes his big proof that god does indeed exist things. You know all the things that's literally as argument. He's shocked the coral can't see it. Frankly yeah so does the final gambit he asks for evidence that god is real. Show me a sign. He says i'll believe now in real life that is a one hundred percent reasonable thing to ask but almaz like but the things look at all the things that's your goddamn sign so core just refuses to acknowledge the things and and says that's not a very good argument. He's such a stubborn. It's acquaintances five ways. Right right a look. There's a world someone made the stars move. Someone makes it's like okay. That's pretty deep. Just the same argument over and over again. Obviously yeah where did it alone from. Yeah so this is the point in the story where it takes a tarantino pivot where we take one moment in this godforsaken book that feels slightly realistic and we plunge into adolescent doofus style. Magic reality revenge stupidity alma. Says you wanna sign. I'll show you assign since you won't shut up and stop ruining god for everybody. God will shut you up. And with that corps is struck dumb permanently and with that corridor like a good and consistent skeptic that he has always been admits in writing that he was wrong and that god must exist. because he can't speak anymore do you think he was carrying his own. Gold-plate jot that down on or do they provide you with one in the courts. What's really funny. And i didn't write this. But what's really funny. Is that when they ask him believing in god now somebody writes it to him as though so such a dumb as just ask him. It's far anyway anyway. yes there's another popular believers straw man right there because about how he always they throw the throw the in this a straw man about how he always secretly believed deep down and that satan tricked him by coming to him like an angel to tell him that there was no god because as we all know god right. Yeah non-belief so often starts with an angelic visitation skepticism. A supernatural right here. Exactly but honestly really. Who's the bad guy here. Cora horror has conflicting beliefs based on lack of evidence and once he gets good evidence even though it fucks him up for life he acknowledges it but that's not the takeaway that we're supposed to get no cora. Hor is pronounced wicked and ends up going door to door begging for food because apparently mute people can't work and everyone who has believed him reverts back to being a good little good little church mouse and eventually core horror was viciously trampled to death. Oh my god and lest you think that i'm skewing. How the book presents this fate you with the actual final verse of the chapter which has a rare moral of the story style ending and thus we see the end of him who perverted the ways of the lord thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day but deaths speedily drag them down to hell and the name of jesus christ amen. Yeah so he's he should stand as a shining example of the power of the gospel right and he should be like what you know. That's what they were teaching missionaries and the mtc is cory horwitz convinced. It took striking mute and then there were some scribblings in the courtroom yada yada but but the hardest of hearts can be changed and and according to their own belief system. Harp became a good guy. The am i wrong. Yeah oh yeah. But i think the takeaway from this story at least from their perspective is don't ask questions yeah right. It's meant to chill to put a chill into the spine of anyone who would dare ask for a sign or ask for evidence or ask for any kind of reality based reason to believe this. Well i don't know dan if you're gonna if you're gonna go go here but i do know a lot of people who had a faith crisis because of the story. Oh really in the same way that. I know of some people who had faith crises because of the story of jesus in the fig tree because if says in that story it wasn't fixed season just went up to the victory didn't have figs so fucked up. Yeah yeah in. This story like corridor is making valid points. He has questions you wants to know and god strikes him dumb right and he says i believe and it ends up being a poor beggar and and getting trampled today. Yeah what's the what's the point of changing your mind. You know like what value is there. Yeah and if you read the story and you're like okay. Here's the problem. I'm having the lesson of the story is not supposed to ask questions. But the story has caused me to have questions fucking. We're supposed to do with that. Yeah it's a mess it's a it's a fun little thing and again. Every time we do a story in the book of mormon. It's just a lesson in why we don't why we edit why we don't claim that our book was directly translating from another book that's directly from god and the and thus make it so that we can't actually like you know edit the other stuck with this garbage mess a story forever it's an albatross around their necks but there you go there you go The third corey. Yep go get out there and have a have a corey horror of time and let's move on. Hey uncle mark yes sir. I know that you you recently crossed a border that is that is somewhat impenetrable right now. Because you know we're still in the middle of a pandemic. I managed to slide through into a closed country. The largest undefended border in the world. Which is quite something. You just got a loop up a lot got you gotta make a run for it anyway. The one of the things that you did before you went there was to get yourself A shot in the arm. I sure did. And i'm glad i did. Yeah and i've got my appointment. I finally got an appointment. Because i finally utah in utah. I'm in an age group. That's going to get them. So i in a in a week and a half. I'm going to be getting my first. Shot they the oh. That's good so they finally lowered it to uncles exactly. It's now well yeah exactly like mark old people style but like you know as young spry uncles can get them to now here teenagers. Well that's right but the question is do i really want it. I think there's a lot to unpack their no it just venting. This disease is not a good idea for some reason. I'm not sure why. But i'm pretty sure that uncle doug you can tell me. Well i'm gonna do my best to convince you otherwise okay Yeah like uncle. Dan just referenced uncle mark and i have both been vaccinated. I'm so happy to hear about that down. He didn't know that that you're getting your vaccine in a in short order. Yeah that's great news and once the government has managed to get all podcasters vaccinated. They can move onto doctors nurses teachers and the general public so essential workers. That's right right so hopefully many of you out there have either received your first vaccination or getting close to being able to something tells me joe rogan's not going to be getting one but that's a subject for another needle would break trying to penetrate is fuck and skin. It's crazy that it's basically been one year since this all started depending on obviously where you are and so it's it's hard not to take stock of what we've all been through in these last twelve interminable months but as the experts keep telling us we are not through this yet and whether we actually get out of this depends on the vast majority of doing the right things. We still need to wash our hands. Practice proper social distancing stay away from parties sporting events and concerts wear masks diligently and get the fucking vaccine as soon as we all can. There is still a real possibility that this virus could mutate into something that makes all the sacrifice effort for nothing so the subject of my segments could not be more timely today. I wanna talk about anti vaccine and the anti vaccine movement like on this show. We've talked about every form and fashion of out. There of wu there. An anti vaccine is definitely a woo. But most moves are basically harmless. If you wanna get your palm read go for it. If you don't want to leave the house until you've read your daily horoscope cares if you want to try and communicate with your dead relatives via a ouija board. I light the candles for you if you want to stick ajay up your recently steamed gene. Cram the fucker up there. Just don't do it during allergy season. Jade is hypoallergenic. Of course these was. These lose can be harmful if say by following some fortune cookie prediction. You make bad decisions. And there are wounds that are that are inherently harmful like trepidation or reputation trepidation grimace conjuring. Being being reluctant is not a woo. Yeah but there is only one wou that is on the world health organization's top ten list of global health threats. And that's antitax or as they put it vaccine hesitancy want to know what else is on that list. Well covid nineteen obviously poor third world third world health. Care you bulla. Dang gay fever. Hiv and climate change. That's right guy fieri. You're that's right. The world health organization sees anti vacs as dangerous as aids and climate change. Jesus there is no real way to know how many people die every year due to anti vaccine damage it causes but the. Who believes that. At least one point five million people a year could be saved if vaccine distribution was marginally improved and one of the biggest impediments to that. Marginal improvement is the anti vaccine movement. So yeah i see you know the the numbers get big real fast As we'll discuss the anti vaccine movement could actually derail our defeat. Derail our efforts to defeat cove in nineteen plunging. His back into the pit where we we were all a year ago and killing millions more people unlike the viruses of the body this movement seeks to protect anti vaccine viruses of the mind and as such might be one of the deadliest viruses in history underlying all of this is the fact that anti vaccine stupid belligerent anti-science often racist and easily disapproval. Not only that. But it's also inconsistently applied illogical to its core and poorly thought out if any of its adherents think about it all. Oh they think they think hard they have developed many many vo ciprusov ways of defending their positions. So well if you say so. But we're not saying good or smartwatch. Just many many ways. Let's agree on loud. Okay unlike other words this one has to be confronted and defeated or were doomed. I would never tell you to slap the tarot cards out of the hands of the yoga instructor. You're trying to have sex with but if you know any anti vaccine you should really talk to them and try and change their mind. If this virus of the mind is not confronted and treated it could kill us all. So let's dig in shall we As early as the tenth century in china someone noticed that those who had previously had a mild case of a deadly disease where less susceptible to that disease later this led to a practice called variation wherein poss- or scabs from an infected person are blown up the nasal passages rubbed on scratches on the skin of an uninfected individual. I know this just sexy as it said. I know this sounds disgusting but honestly it was probably the least disgusting thing to have happened to you. On any given day in the tenth century why this practice worked in would would would remain a mystery for centuries but by the sixteenth and seventeenth century. It was in fairly wide use in china india and turkey before making its way to england in the eighteenth century. Now here's the thing. Eighteenth century england was certainly somewhat enlightened Certainly somewhat enlightened place for the world back then but that doesn't mean it wasn't still barbaric. Yeah so some of the first True scientific experiments of vaccines were carried out on children prisoners and slaves. None of who are you going to do it. On good like grown up white people essentially aldrin. This would pretty disposable. Then the children's a bad show for kids man doubt this would unfortunately be a part of the development and experimentation to vaccines for well over one hundred years as we'll see these evil practices would become a bit a small bit of the fodder that would become the anti vaccine movement But before we get to that let's talk about. How what what a game. Changing development vaccine science was for the human race prior to their development. When a disease crossover from some animal to humanity. All we can really do is just wait for it to run. Its course outbreaks of cholera influenza. And of course ends long. That's known as the trump plan. That's exactly right exactly so yeah. Outbreaks of cholera influenza and of course bubonic plague would kill millions of people per outbreak. The version of the botanic plague known as the black death killed between seventy five and two hundred million people between thirteen forty-six and thirteen fifty three. Jeez yeah bad guys. They were just week from. Hiv aids is still a global pandemic has killed more than thirty six million people. Since nineteen eighty-one of course there is not a vaccine yet for this disease but the therapeutics are incredible. If expensive and hiv aids is very preventable. The reasons that it has and continues to spread basically racism and religious are very much a part of the anti vaccine movement as we'll discuss but yeah i mean that you know. We were all alive during the aids crisis in the eighties. Although you know pretty young and pretty dumb but that was a terribly preventable disease. That was treated as a gay disease. A black disease on african disease and was able to spread. So that's good stuff and and and when people died of it it was horrid. It was absolutely horrible. Fact that these therapeutics are now exist when and guys that caught it in the original wave are dying of old age is incredible. It's incredible bears mentioning. We'll get back to this. That's not happening everywhere that aids problem but of course it's right exactly so in the eighteen eighties. Louis pasteur brought. What was a pretty chaotic and unorganized field of science into the modern age when he developed microbial fermentation and pasteurization. Since then we have developed vaccines for pure peer parl. Fever rabies anthrax cholera polio measles. Tetanus smallpox chickenpox influenza. hpv. Hepatitis lime disease. Rubella whooping cough wrote rotavirus mumps diptheria dang game malaria tuberculosis among others so It's you know it's been a game changing development for the human species. This of course brings us to today and the emergence of covid nineteen as we have all become acutely aware. This disease is incredibly contagious. Having spread from wuhan china to every corner of the globe in a matter of months as of the time of this record covid nineteen has killed two point six nine million people worldwide with the us accounting for five hundred thirty nine thousand of those deaths. So where number. One and because of the incumbent national governments the selfishness of far too many and the vast amounts of disinformation ready in the psychological bloodstream. From the anti vaccine movement this disease was poised to simply just wash around the globe over and over until mcnew and more resistant and more deadly strains evolved and let's not be too optimistic. This could still happen. We are in desperate. Yeah yeah we're we're in a desperate foot race against these variants as we speak the only way we can beat this virus back and stop the carnage let alone get back to some sort of normalcy is for enough of us in our fellow humans all over the world not just in our own countries to get the vaccines that are now available to reach her immunity. Now we've all heard that term. It is of course the critical mass of humans that have to have immunity such that the the the disease cannot spread with impunity. Excuse me the former president called it herd mentality suggests wrong in the most apt freudian slip in history once herd immunity is reached. The reproduction number reaches zero. This is called are not right or rs. Zero right now covid. Nineteen is between our two and our three meaning that each person who gets it can infect two to three other people in order to return immunity or not with covid nineteen fifty and sixty seven percent of the population needs the vaccine in america. This means one hundred and sixty four million two hundred twenty four million people need to be vaccinated but but more would be better always better. This is the baseline just to stop the the you know the the spread on but remember this is a global pandemic and the longer this disease persists anywhere. The higher the chance of chances that dangerous variants can evolve. Defeat the vaccines so to win this fifty to sixty seven percent of the populations of england china iraq togo and benin needs to be vaccinated worldwide. That is three point. Eight to five point. One billion people need to get vaccinated and fast as of now. Seventy seven or so million americans have received at least their first dose of the vaccine which is a good start but globally only four hundred ten million people have been vaccinated so far. That's bad that's only eight to eleven percent of where we need to be We are not through this yet and there is no time to spare and there is certainly not time for the disinformation campaign by the anti vaccine movement and its erstwhile allies The mere fact that we have these vaccines at all is truly incredible. And i've heard you know including us have referred to it is miraculously because that word by its very definition is meant to apply to events that defy explanation or explanation explanation or expectations. But this was not a miracle this was the achievement of scientists and the body of work. They have all contributed to. So let's talk about these vaccines for a second because it will. It will inform where we end up while the covid nineteen virus was new to humanity hence the term novel there was a robust body of knowledge of corona viruses out there due to the previous corona vices. Like sars and mers right. This data was shared globally in an open source initiative. Call g sad or id which shares genomic data on influenza viruses with anybody that wants it because of that body of knowledge we were not starting out from zero but even still Not only had to take years to develop vaccines in the past. There was not any vaccine in existence for any kind of corona virus so the challenge was extreme as the pandemic enveloped the globe in there in early. Two thousand twenty scientists were able to isolate covid. Nineteen genetic sequence on january eleventh twenty twenty which in itself is incredible next. there was. Yeah that's really quick. Super super quick next. There was an unprecedented collaborative Undertaken by national governments drug companies and research universities to find a vaccine. The main vehicles for this effort were the. Who an initiative by the g. twenty called access to covid nineteen tools. Accelerator so these are the two main bodies that kind of tried to coordinate all this research. I think you mean president. Trump's warp speed initiative. Well i'll i'll get to that for so k. and yes that's the w. h. o. That said donald trump pulled us from in may of twenty twenty because he needed to blame someone for his failures and this is true because they refuse to call it. The china virus which is something that would have no evil consequences at all right. Yeah that hasn't turned into anything even shittier nope no. It's been great so ankle. Dan mentioned warp speed in. May trump announced operation warp speed which was an effort to fast track. Funding clinical trials approval and distribution of potential vaccines. It was named operation warp speed because donald trump is a child. Yeah but the the the thing is also you think he ever watched star trek like he. The i'm guessing that was a that was a jared kushner name or don jr. something yeah i know like he doesn't seem to watch something like that in glean anything from it. He's just too fucking self is was the fact that it wasn't operation. Trump speed is pretty surprising. So the thing is it's not a bad idea to do this. But trump ran it early like he's run everything else in his life Into the ground basically. So although moderna moderna and johnson and johnson did take funding from warp speed to develop vaccines pfizer did not not wanting to infect pun intended their research with the trump administration's incompetence as for the distribution phase of warp speed. Trump did basically nothing right. God only knows how this would append out. Had he won the election point of order. He didn't do nothing. he took full credit for. That's exactly right it's true that's not nothing. That's what's so funny. Not only you know. He's claiming credit to this day for the vaccines. I think should give him some. You know some credit and respect because we all remember how much credit and respect trump gave the previous administration for the economy right exactly so trump is claiming credit for this to this day which sets up one of the many contradictions in the story. The foot soldiers in trump's army are by and large q. on believing anti vaccine and here we have trump winking at them while demanding credit for the vaccines yeah and very typically encouraging people to get vaccinated but keeping his own vaccination secret. This will not. It's but but you we know that the cue brain is incredibly incoherency is it's not a problem truly and i'm i remain convinced that trump didn't show a picture of getting the vaccine because he didn't want to see him in short sleeved shirt with his shirt pulled up. I believe right well. None of us wanted to see. That's i think him for it. That's fair so with all that context. Let's get to the anti vaccine. Since the first vaccinations there have been anti vaccine. There's there were those who objected to having scabs blown up their nostrils because it was gross and it was weird and no one understood why it worked or in many cases because religious leaders railed against these religious arguments ran the gamut from scientists devil worship to viruses were created by god to punish the wicked and any attempt to stop them was fighting against the will of god all right. It's it's the same reason that when ben franklin put a lightning rod on wherever it was town hall and philadelphia or whatever and all the churches inveighed against as as yup subverting god's will and then two years later they all had lightning round exactly. Yeah so in the nineteenth century there were anti vaccination leagues that sprung up in the us and the uk that slowed down the vaccination campaigns against smallpox and led to untold numbers of unnecessary deaths. Similar leagues appeared. All around the world. is that campaign continued. Most of these leagues focused on. What would become the main fear of all anti vaccine harm to children. Most current anti vaccine fall into two buckets with one being far larger and more nefarious than the other. The biggest grin. We just keep them in the bucket. Really we could seal it then. That would be great. the biggest group or those. That believe they are. There is some conspiracy or several conspiracies behind vaccines. And we'll get to that he's ranged from the profit motive of the pharmaceutical and medical industry all the way to alien experimentation of course whatever their particular belief is it's based on a belief in dark forces with no regard regard for public health. The second much smaller bucket are those that simply. Don't care enough to get vaccinated. They're part of the problem. So don't feel any need to be part of the solution so while the latter is certainly a cause for concern. It's the former group that is a global crisis and there are different kinds of anti vaccine. There's some who to completely deny an issue any kind of accent. There are some that want to spread out. Vaccinations over time. Only get this one or that one so the kind of run the gamut but they pretty much all believe the same things. they're all looking at the same materials and so we're going to keep them in a single group for the purpose of this discussion. Because whatever you're doing if you're slowing down vaccines or you're not getting him. You're the effect is the same right. Modern yeah the modern iteration of this insanity has its roots in the campaign to vaccinate against it. Fury tetanus pertussis hope. I said that right process. I think in the nineteen seventies conflicting and spurious reports appeared in the uk press that there was significant neurological after effects from this vaccine in children. Not true but in the history of followed a film called vaccination roulette and a book called a shot in the dark hit the market. These two works described. Dark conspiracies joins stuck what this was in the nineteen seventies late nineteen seventies early august. Okay this you know what we call the anti vaccine movement isn't that old you know and i thought actually well it didn't get get it's real. We'll get to early where it kinda got so it's injection so to speak right But the so both these films were films. Booker complete hui. But they're still around today. There's still in circulation then came the inciting incident of the modern anti vaccine movement in nineteen ninety eight a british physician named andrew wakefield released a paper in the lancet called iliad lymphoid najah hyperplasia nonspecific colitis and pervasive developmental disorder. In children. try saying that three times or just once The paper claimed a link between vaccinations for measles. Mumps rubella and autism in children right given the wakefield was a doctor at the time. He's not anymore right and the paper sounded scientific. It caused a major stir one that we are still feeling today. I don't want to spend too much time on wakefield because he is truly one of the world's greatest monsters and quite literally may have as much blood on his hands. As any of history's greatest villains. Yeah he's essentially a baby murderer. Yeah yeah Except to say that it turns out that he was paid by various organizations to produce the paper and the paper itself was so completely spurious. That lancet retracted wakefield with stripped of his medical license. That hasn't stopped him though he was behind. The you know quote unquote documentary faxed. That came out in the in the two thousands with the tagline. The movie they don't want you to see gotta love that. That's a that all conspiracy theories that's catnap right exactly and it's basically the citizen kane of the anti vaccine movement. Glenn watch the trailer for this monster. Snipe nightmare if you're up to it. And if you're not filled with boiling hate for wakefield. I don't wanna know you. It's necessary it's manipulative. It's grotesque it's shocking. The godawful movies guys did it right. Yeah i think they pound a nail. It's horrible and not for nothing but because you know autism is tragic and it's very difficult for families of autistic people to you know to raise autistic children and And again i'm. I'm not trying to shame her or anyone out. There is offended by. I don't mean that. By any stretch. I i would i would. I would ask to modify tragic. I think it's just simply a a different way of being that yes can be more challenging. Yeah of course and but to try and manipulate people with autistic children autistic family members and use that video to manipulate others. I think his tragic up and completely missing from the conversation is the fact that autism is way better than most of the diseases. Which vaccines present promote google fucking picture of smallpox. So in the in the research or polio polio. And the research for this. I saw a lot of. What's so fucked up. Is i saw a lot of photos about this stuff. From recent like not pictures of people with smallpox in eighteen ninety smallpox is as it recurred it. The smallpox hasn't but polio has had some outbreaks and stuff like that. Because of this fucking shit so the sequel to this piece of shit vacs movie faxed to the people's truth. Electric google was released in november of two thousand nineteen mere months before the covid pandemic and. I don't want to wish ill on people. So i'm gonna stop talking about wakefield right now But this this fear that these vaccines caused autism was based on the fact Pounded in these documentaries that these vaccines contain traced can contained trace amounts of mercury in the form of a chemical called mirasol which contains forty nine percent methylmercury ever so little mirasol was used in these vaccines that it came nowhere near a dose that could potentially cause harm and in fact in two thousand three danish researchers conducted a study involving thousands of children who who received vaccines containing and thousands who receive vaccines that contain none and they found that the instances of autism was exactly the same in both groups. This these vaccines the mirasol. A methylmercury are not causing autism but the mirasol has been removed from almost every major vaccine simply due to the public perception. Yeah so The unfortunate truth though is this fear vaccines and medical science. Being less than forthright and ethical is not entirely without cause. I mentioned earlier. That the first vaccination experiments were carried out on slaves children and prisoners. Not good then. I don't want slaves and prisoners to get it but i'm just wondering why the children are thrown in there. I think it is i think. No i think it's because a lot of these diseases struck children's childhood okay. So they're they're like oh we'll just use children to experiment with ren of course there were. There were the tuskegee. Experiments carried out by the public. Health service tuskegee university. And the cdc in which african american men were told. They were being given free healthcare to treat their syphilis when in reality they were not and for forty years. They were observed to see what long term syphilis would do to the human body. Yeah this led to the painful and miserable death of one hundred twenty eight of the men. It is one of the darkest chapters in american medical history and has been a consistent reason for mistrust of the us government particularly by african americans. Ever since for good reason yeah there are. There are some people that are that. I think are justified in their hesitancy. Yep but it's not fucking jenny mccarthy and you know her fucking social set of white upper class liberals in hollywood bowl right. Yeah and we'll definitely we'll we'll dig into that and hate on some people here in a minute But the tuskegee experiments diddley disa- major reforms in the us health industry that remain today including the creation of the office for human research protections within the health and human health and human services administration so these exist specifically to prevent anything like that from ever happening again. The body of law that exists because of to gigi is significant but if your natural inclination is to mistrust the government will the tuskegee experiment. Certainly don't help yeah Another tenant of the anti vaccine movement is something called vaccine overload. This is not a medical term by the way but essentially means that too much vaccine or vaccines administered in two rapid a succession will weaken the immune system and lead to adverse affects again. This is hogwash. Not only have so. This is a really interesting fact. Not only a vaccine become so efficacious over the last several decades such that the immune immunological components in the fourteen. Vaccines administered to children. Today is less than ten percent of what it was in the seven. Vaccines administered in nineteen eighty hour. Yeah it's the vaccine. Science has has come a long way and not for nothing but many vaccines must be administered on a specific timeline. In order to work yet right yeah vaccine overload. Unfortunately it's still a common try amongst Anti vaxxers ironically the success of many vaccines one of the main driving forces behind behind the anti vaccine trump actually brought that up at one of the debates for he was president. Yeah it just saying well. Why don't we just space it out more exactly. Yep so the success of many vaccines ironically working against them. You know quote. Nobody has measles or polio anymore. So why do they keep injecting us with. It is like a common trope of anti vaccine so while the answer to this seems so obvious as to be mind-blowing it's very common Because of this. Ironically antibac- sentiment has caused outbreaks of cholera whooping cough measles mumps into brick yellow says in the united states in the last several years I'm all of which were basically eliminated up exactly. I mentioned before that there is inherent racism to anti vaccine movement because there is the firstly the anti vaccine movement is heavily involved in all things conspiratorial including and on which are inherently racist. Nobody wants to be called a racist especially racist. Most anti actors don't even wanna called bat preferring the moniker vaccine risk aware and you know anti vaccine is by no means only a white phenomenon however the communities often hit first and hit hardest by disease outbreaks or black and brown communities one of the best ways to combat and curb the spread of of viral diseases is to get them where they start which is oftentimes poorer countries so back in two thousand fourteen. We went to west african. We the us went to west africa to help prevent the spread of a bola and successfully managed to keep this terrible disease from spreading out of control. Guess what anti vaccine are often against funding for efforts in these poor often black and brown countries. We're seeing this in real time now with covid. Nineteen the reasons that black and brown communities are medically disadvantaged are many and systemic but they are undeniable. Yeah so i'm sorry. If you're unsubstantiated ridiculous and easily just provable. Beliefs lead to bad outcomes in primarily black and brown communities. I don't know what else to that racist. Anti vaccine just stinks of white privilege front. Yes it does for sure yet it unfortunately. This movement has garnered some famous kind of and powerful adherents for minor. Celebrities like jessica biel jim carey jenny. Mccarthy leashes still re silverstone gentleman juliette lewis. Charlie sheen rob Danny masterson selma blair and to a certain extent bill. Maher up to god. help me robert deniro. I know that. Oh that one hurts. Yeah yeah really why. Well i mean. I guess i still want my money back for bad grandpa but expect good actor but i never thought of is an idiot. Yeah exactly yeah well and then not to mention like you said. Uncle mark the forty fifth president of the united states donald j trump among many tweets and outbursts on the subject. He tweeted in two thousand fourteen quote healthy young child goes to doctor gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines doesn't feel good and changes autism. Many such doesn't feel good and changes was. It was a good tweet though. We gotta give him credit for that. That's a solid there. So yeah the man. In charge of project warp speed the government initiative to generate and distribute a vaccine from may of twenty twenty two january of two thousand twenty. One was an anti vaccine and then of course the overwhelming scientific consensus is that vaccines are widely safe in effect ineffective. There aren't many things that have such a consensus if four out of five. Dentists recommend a toothbrush. You're going to go buy it yet. That's nothing compared to the consensus on vaccines right and not for nothing. We've harped on this before. The scientific method that led to vaccines is the same method. That has led to air travel smartphones. Gps viagra the germ theory of disease. Chris larynx jar jar. Binks electricity the internet and grimace conjuring. You don't get to pick and choose here you believe in reputable science or you don't and if you don't that's fine but pleased to be handing your car keys and laptop. You can be skeptical about it but once the once you examine the evidence right. There's nothing to support the anti vaccine position exactly well except that they've got their own evidence and a they've got a whole cadre of their own doctors and their own scientists to save the opposite things and go ahead go ahead. I was going to say and you're going to mention this but the catholic church of course just came out and said cat. Catholic shouldn't get the johnson and johnson vaccine because fetal tissue was part of the research. I didn't even know that. Yep i'm gonna. I'm gonna go punch a hole in my television real quick. Yeah so this brings us to our current crisis throughout the covert bent pandemic anti vaccines have been howling that this was a hoax or that it was a bio weapon that the chinese either released on purpose lost control of and now that the vaccines are untested and dangerous. This was all spelled out in yet another quote unquote documentary released in two thousand twenty called. Plan democ oh yeah. This piece of propaganda push push the conspiracy. That covid was manmade. The doctors and hospitals use the pandemic as a money making venture. That masks actually caused disease and that hydroxychloroquine is active in stopping cove. It absolutely none of this is true and his counterproductive dangerous. But if you know any anti vaccine is you can bet money. They've seen it. So the filmmakers have been discredited the whole thing is a piece of shit But it's out there and the final piece of the puzzle to talk about is the speed with which the covid vaccines were developed. Rather than with develop. Because that's a big trope of anti vaccine is this came out too fast Rather than seeing this as a towering achievement of medical science anti factors point to it as proof that it's all rigged their point being that the government had them all along or they weren't tested rigorously enough and we don't know what's in them or both or both legs to believe all the things that can believe all the things regardless of what it whether it makes any sense to the first point i can only say that if donald trump had been hiding the vaccine this whole time and the early release would have guaranteed victory. Is there any personal life. That thinks he would not have blurted it out at some point tolerate to the second point we do know what's in these vaccines you can look it up online. The thing is if you're not a medical or virological expert or can speak english like me. You're probably not going to fully understand the you know what's in the stuff but again i don't fully understand how the internal combustion engine works but i don't think it's a government conspiracy to get me to work on time in your car. People know it's fucking pizza when they order. That's exactly what i find it. Hard to stomach the argument that we should refuse to put something in her body unless we fully understand what it's what it's from. What's in it from the people who celebrate the return of the mcrib right right Yeah i mean think about that. The next time you cram doritos in your mouth and wash it. Down with vodka tonic so anyway And they were rigorous rigorously tested. No steps were skipped in stroke of genius. Many of the steps necessary to create and test vaccine were run concurrently rather than in sequence and insert and some of the funding for this process. Came from you guessed. It operation warp speed so through the teeth. If you must you can tell your antitax friends. That trump deserves some credit here although with five hundred thirty nine thousand caveats. Yeah so we're getting a little long in the tooth here. I thought it was important to cover all this ground. So let's just sum up. Vaccines do not cause autism. In children there is no such thing as vaccine overload. We know exactly what's in the covid vaccines they were absolutely tested are very safe and you should not be taking your medical advice from charlie sheen adam right. Take it from us exactly. Take it from your doctor. So you know i hate to do this. But if there are any anti vaccine in your life it might be a worthwhile effort to engage with them and try if you can to convince them or enlighten them or move them because this thing is bad. It's real bad and we need everybody onboard. Unfortunately it's not just a matter of well they're only risking their own lives because they're not. There's there's no peeing section. The public pool is it. Is it so dangerous to them. They're willing to go through another fucking year of this right. You know four or five years because who knows if a variant pops up that's trickier. That's harder to make a vaccine for. Yeah we're all fucked so thank. God we've got a vaccine yup get it get. Let's get the herd immunity so that you were okay. We need to do this together. And and you know someone's going to have to talk to these people going to have to be us. It's gonna have to be us if if not now when if not who us. That's right all right okay. Well thanks uncle doug. I know there was a lot of work. Yeah all right. let's move on. Well friends that is it for this week's barn burner of show. Hey you hate vaccinations. We'd love to hear from you because we want to yell at you send us an email at how to and how to heretic dot com or if you're an anti galactic safeness some kind don't bother calling us about it at nine zero three eight eight to nine three hundred four six hundred six. I'm also twitter heretic and always thinks where patrons who we will get back with next week and thanks to our dark lord cody layton frenzy show and thanks to all of you friends for tuning in by friends.

anton long dan oncle marquez anton levay church of saint doug segment lucian greaves richard moult david miot corey vendex joseph smith christos nazarene bay Greg rogers Hassen hiep Us
#485 - Mormon vs. David C. Smalley

Dogma Debate

1:55:44 hr | 11 months ago

#485 - Mormon vs. David C. Smalley

"Skip the commercials and get extra long shows with behind the scenes access at Patriot dot com slash. David. C Smalley. For more than ten years, he's built a reputation of exploring beliefs and changing lives. And with today's division, it's time to resurrect nuance. And bring back the art of conversation. They'll make you laugh. You may upset you. But most importantly. He'll make you think. From Los Angeles California this is David C smalley. Today making history. On the program. And I'm so happy to bring it to you and I know I say that a lot. But I am I'm genuinely like, Giddy, for this conversation over the years I've had. Oh Gosh a handful, maybe five or six people. Who have left specific churches. specific religious groups very specific. Denominations of Christianity. And when they leave the religion, the very open about talking about it, but it's very hard to get people. Now, if you know anyone who's just like on Baptist or I'm I'm a pastor or a preacher or specifically apologist, they love to talk about their faith and and and defend the faith and challenge atheism and it's just it's a fun conversation have but there are a few very specific denominations that will just never talk to me and I don't know if it's because for many years the show had a different title and seemed contentious even though it really wasn't all that contentious. but I I'm so honored to say that that today that that chain is breaking. I've had on the show over the years maybe a handful maybe six seven former members of the LDS church on this show. But I've never been able to talk to someone who is an active member. and if you're confused about LDS it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You may know them as the Mormons but I hear we're not supposed to call them that and we're GONNA get into that right now please join me in welcoming not only an active member of the Church of Latter Day Saints Sorta, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints But also a patriotic supporter of this show a never thought I would say that out loud join me in welcoming Joshua Bayard. To The podcast welcome Joshua. All right thanks man I appreciate you. Bringing me on I'm really really excited for this man when you when you reach down and I saw the euro patron I thought. Well to be honest with you actually wasn't supporting you previous to you're reaching back out. I've been listening to your show ads about a year and a half. You had an episode on unbelievable. Believe you talked with that politics you recently had on Randall rouser. Yeah Ramli you had. And from that show, I've been listening to your podcast. So you know it's probably been year and half I. Think it was last March I actually went back and looked it up. But yeah. So I've been listening to your show and I've been telling myself that I need to support you for I'm I'm a firm believer in if I'm listening to someone's content, you know like obviously they put it out for free there and if I find myself either enjoying or listening to it a bunch, then I should support and I've been taught me to myself to do it but when when you messaged back in relic hey, like on like. I gotta go do it now. Because I know I needed to do it. I'm done it yet, and so that's yeah. So technically wasn't a patron and supporter prior to giving unification to go on the show but I felt like I needed to particularly to be part of the conversation. So Dan, that's great and I appreciate you letting me know that and I think one thing that that helps drive that that discussion that respectful discussion that I love so much. Is really the Patriot community I mean. It's you know if people are on facebook and anybody can access it. That's where people just get so nasty and when people are part of a part of the premium community, they just take better care of it. You know they keep the streets clean and and they also understand the focus of the show is to not drive people away with nastiness but the, but to open up and be conversational on on these types of sensitive topics and so the fourth listener. We we like to call them the person who really gets the show those folks over on Patriot on It's it's a wonderful community a part of an you've already seen a lot of the questions. I'm going to be asking you today because I went on Patriot on and I said you know I'm going to be talking with with an active member of the LDS Church what questions do you have and there are lots? So on top of what they want me to ask I've got a lot of other questions. I also did the voiceover for a book that I've quoted before though. It's called the complete heretics guide to Western Religion Book One, the Mormons it's by David Fitzgerald who I often quote when it comes to Jesus. And the different takes on the gospels and things like that. but yet he he did a deep dive study on on Mormonism on the church and I was able to do his voice over and I have to say learned so much for that and I went back and visited at this week and took some notes and I have a ton of questions myself. So I say we just dive straight in and I think yeah, I'll mentioned I actually didn't actually here. I had heard you mentioned his name but. Not until in the Patriots section, somebody mentioned by a shout out to David shells the Mormons audiobook wherever you know and so I actually looked up one of his talks on it on Youtube and listen to it. So maybe I'll be able to you know yeah, I. So I reached out to I reached out to David I. It's funny. I, started watching that a one of those talks as well. The most recent one I think it was like four or five years ago. And I started watching talking I was taking notes because a lot all the stuff I've heard before but it's just about refreshing. You know because it's it's not often that I get to have these conversations. and. So I was taking notes and then I I called Dave I text Dave and also k. you know I'm finally talking with a with an active member of the Church do you have anything for me? He's like here I have the and he sent me the notes from the talk I was watching I was like, Oh, the perfect saves me a lot of typing. So thank you and we had a we had a few conversations back and forth and I'm just so excited to be having this conversation the really the first question I have is Is is referring to you as Mormon considered offensive because I totally plan on the title of this show being Mormon versus David Smalley because it's kind of the the theme that we run with and that's how most people would know you but is that something that's considered offensive to to let you. Know it's technically not offensive I mean, let me give you a little background obviously for years and years the churches actually gone off of that name, right? Like there's a bunch of clips that are like I'm a Mormon were talks about people in different aspects of life and that it just a little interviewing like I'm Mormon Right So wouldn't be offensive the lowness Kinda. This is Kinda my a little bit of a take on well again that part later. Essentially. As of recent, I think I can't remember exactly which conference talk it was recently if it was April or if it was last October the church did come and ask that we do what we can to try to be referred to as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the ultimate reason for that is that we feel that so many people don't believe I don't know that we believe in Jesus. Christ. Ohka. Yeah. Yeah and so ultimately when it's not that the name of Mormons offensive in technically LDS doesn't have the name Jesus Christ right So really the hope is that whatever name we use has the name Jesus Christ was getting. You know I've been thinking about this this last week because I'm like well, David's GonNa WanNa catchy title. If, if if the preference would be for him, not to use Mormon, we put him in print the season two full name. So I dunno will maybe we'll talk about that later but Yeah. No, that's that's ultimately the reason behind it is because there's so many people talk that are like. well, warm's open Jesus Christ. But the truth is in the name of our church. Right? It is nice to reconsider handles. You'll. That's one of the things that came up in my research is there was a time where Jesus Christ was not in the church name. Right? It was just called the Church of Latter Day saints. So maybe it was just shortened or something but there are images all of the Internet of like You know the front of the building printed what the name just the Church of Latter Day saints. And I get that a lot of people that I talked to if I were to mention. Say. Jehovah's Witnesses. Or Mormons or even seventh day adventist though the often tell me a moment Christians and they just brush brush you off. So so quickly, what do you think that is? I mean anyone who? I mean, there's a lot of it comes from all communities people just if they don't know something about a particular community, they go based off of the little sound bites that they've heard from others I mean if they'd never had a true conversation with someone of that faith or at least dived into their beliefs than they're just gonNa make assumptions based off right in there and I haven't honestly the truth is I haven't really gotten into theological conversations with many who are just considered to be Christian main main what we call mainstream Christian right like. Catholic Protestant Baptist like the pretty big names out there to asking them why they wouldn't think think generally comes down to like you have to have. Assad belief in on the Bible and Bible alone in order to be considered a Christian and there is and even though we believe in the Bible and we you know we believe. That I mean, are the book of Mormon says on the front another testament of Jesus Christ. Sell, it's a big thing to us that people consider us to be. Consider. US TO BE CHRISTIANS THAT WE BELIEVE IN JUNE Christ. There's basically the focus has been on as of recent anytime that were referring to ourselves without the name of Jesus Christ were kind of doing a disservice running. So and then I honestly I think to some extent. There's a little bit of a PR thing going on there right because for a long actually the being called a Mormon I, I think that was actually a nickname that was given earlier on Church from people who didn't. Exactly like the members of our church and there was like a derogatory nickname and. Kinda seems mainly like well, the best way to take something that could be an insult as you walk straight into it and accept it right. So it's Kinda it's Kinda how I see it as they've done some pretty turgid done some pretty cool stuff to make that. You know turn around and be a positive thing but you know it's Kinda like now obviously, that's a positive thing. But the one thing that we've done in the at the same time as. Make people you know have the assumption that we aren't followers and which I think's GonNa surprise a lot of members to know that the atheist are actually out here defending you and when I say that I mean sure we argue against the faith and sure we question and were skeptical but anytime, a Christian, who is not a part of the Mormon faith says. That Mormons. Aren't real. Christians. The atheist or the first one to say, that's no true Scotsman. Fallacy. And here's why what does it take to be a Christian and they're GONNA? Say you follow the teachings of juice cries you believe that? Jesus Christ died for your sins so that you may enter the Kingdom of Heaven rose from the dead three days later well. Mormons, fit that that that that label so. By. Christians on definition Mormons are Christians. So what they really mean is that Mormons added things. To the word of God which makes them uncomfortable. They don't trust that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that's why they say that but if a Mormon believes that. Jesus Christ rose from the dead and died for your sins that pretty much qualified him. So the atheist often debate with Christians in sort of defend the LDS church in that respect that I think a lot of people you know that are that are part of the LDS faith might be surprised by that. Right well, and honestly very appreciated a lab. Very. Cool. So to that Christian argument they'll say it says an Old Testament and deuteronomy it also says in revelation. Anyone who takes away from these words or adds anything to them. will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven Some of the verses say that God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll Basically, you shouldn't take anything away or add anything to scripture the word of God. in once the Bible was canonized that wrapped up that ended it. So what do you say to the Christian like just despite the atheist but what do you say to the Christian? Who says it's very clear in the Bible that you're not supposed to add anything to the cannon and the book of Mormon is an addition. There is no new testament. therefore, that's why we disqualify you. I. The first officer that comes down to our belief in the Bible right. So we believe the Bible to be the word of God Soleil Salang, as it is translated correctly right and part of I mean you know that's one of the biggest things that comes up on this podcast. All the time is like what which translation are you talking about right which would just has all sorts of things that get translated placed in and out of context and. And so I don't know. I've obviously have heard that scripture before right and obviously that comes up as something that we talk about I. Haven't I'm not an apologist. I haven't gone through and actually looked at the Greek and know how to translate to say cable. This is where definitely could have gone wrong. But my general feeling would be that they may be taking the translations may be taking it out context at. Know what they intended to say may not be exactly you know what is portrayed in that led they may not be referring to the just the bike, the Bible as a whole because the Bible was separated and gathered together. So how did like what they're gathering together me? So that's that's my general take. That's that's. If I were answering that for you revival in your position. That's exactly what I would say is that the the scroll of revelation is all that revelation was talking about it had no way of knowing the author had no way of knowing that it was going to be a part of these other sixty six bucks or let alone the Apocrypha Catholic Bible or whatever the new world translation is for the Jehovah's Witnesses because there's tons of stuff missing from that. So who who really knows you know but revelation definitely did know deuteronomy definitely didn't know in fact Deuteronomy could have been talking about just the Toro, which would be the first five or so books so. You know they never liked the writers of the Torah, which I understand is supposed to be Moses and now more and more rabbinical scholars are saying that he probably didn't even exist and that it was an anonymous author but regardless if that did happen. There's no way Torah the you know the author of the Torah could have known John was coming in the book of Daniel and everything else so I I don't think it was talking about the whole Bible I think that's a that's a slam dunk there you know and that's another argument for Mormons. You know being able to keep their own book and besides a lot of us have asked for years why? Doesn't God do an update you know why can't we get another another prophet and other testament and that's exactly what the book of Mormon claims to be. You know all right and every time I hear like, Oh, well, if this is so imperfect but only hear an updated version or does he do to us now and like I'm sitting here like David? You don't know obviously got project on your you know like. I'm sitting here thinking in my head like there's plenty of times that I'm listening to this podcast where it's like I'm above the I mean. I know what they want to degrade other Christians faith? I. Believe. There's lots of people and I mean as we get into this more, we can talk about like my view of other Christian religions and like Andy Kristen than Mike what what's GonNa be common but. Ultimately. I'm I'M I'm thinking like man I've got some answers to these questions, right? Like if only these. Christians would. Would you. Know if they don't have testimony of right it, it'd be an easy slam dunk answer. So. Well. Let's let's dive in so. I think the biggest thing in anytime someone thinks about. your church or Mormonism as a whole or even the book of Mormon specifically. I mean you can't really talk about it without starting with. Joseph Smith. And you know I I've always wanted to know how 'cause ex Mormons will tell me all the time that now that they're no longer part of the church, they'll jokingly call themselves foreman's as former Mormons and though they'll often say that there's no way. Joseph Smith, really translated those plates because you know he was convicted of fraud believe it's in Bainbridge New York it was march of eighteen, twenty six. He was only twenty one years old he was convicted of being I. Think the court documents say had disorderly person and an imposter. And during those trials, he admitted defrauding people by being glass looker. He claimed to have dark powers and he would use a magic seer stone and for people who don't know what that is they would basically put these stones in a hat and he would like look into them and walk around People's land and say we have buried treasure here you have something. Expensive here underground, they would pay him and then he walk away and they would start digging for hours and hours and possibly days, and then of course, never find anything and he admitted to doing this and my understanding is at first the church denied that he did it I don't know the true history on that, but then the original court documents were found in. A because there was a fire in the courthouse, they thought the documents were gone. They later found the documents and the the admission from from Joseph, Smith himself that he actually was was convicted of that in in in admitted to it and claimed to be to be a a glass looker and to be able to use magic seer stones was. Convicted of that of fraud and court, and then within four years of this or so is when he claimed to discover the book of Mormon. So a lot of people just look back at him and go clearly he was defrauding people. So as an active member of the LDS Church, how do you deal with that and do they talk about that stuff in church? Yeah I mean. We don't talk about the specifics we do do we do it like in Church it? It place that in context. With, like the actual sermons over you know like the Sunday school classes of every don't talk about specific but the church has all sorts of documents that they publish. That would be the I am assuming most of them are APP in reputation to the to the claims right or an explanation, right but. The. Church does I mean, and in general were not shy and trying to talk about it because you can't really be a member and live in this world. The not have people try to fight you on whether or not Joseph Smith as a prophet of God like. That's that's just a given and. Just in response how I how I? Deal with those two is I mean the cornerstone of my belief right ultimately comes down to personal revelation right? That's I feel like that's one of the big things that are church stresses. The absolute most is revelation. and. One of the biggest things that personal revelation I have testimony of Jesus era of Joseph Smith. Because I have received revelation that has told me that he's prophet of God. And so. That is for me. And I I can testify that truth right but. The history of it. I'm I I'm not, going to doubt. That those documents out I don't actually know the historic around like I said, I'm not an apologist. I haven't looked into all those things it would be easy for me to. I mean Joseph. Smith was persecuted a lot. Throughout his life. It wouldn't be too far fetched to consider that this could be a case where the. Justice system was a little injust am certain. So many injustices happened through our justice system now if there's A? Like a took to be clear if like someone to start with then easy to get someone and say, Hey, you sign this, you're going to be going to jail or whatever, who knows what their hold over their head sure and to to be clear right to be clear I would I would say that's a possibility. If if the if the historical count was backwards right if if he had started the the the Mormon Church and then later he was convicted of of the of fraud I see. People who were Anti Mormon to you know craft something like that. In fact, there has been some of that the there is evidence that I came across that was would be very damning to the church, but then I fact check that and found that to be fraudulent. So there were people who were defrauding and trying to make Joseph Smith look bad. But this one in particular, which is why I didn't use that other stuff in in that's why deleted from my notes but this stuff particularly happened. Prior. To the creation of the Mormon church in its dated in the court documents. So that's why I think. It's so significant is you know it wasn't backdated it wasn't created after the fact it was found in a in a courthouse basement that he was actually convicted of fraud doesn't even matter to you. Could he have been convicted of fraud and then become a prophet of God We'll see in in. The. Trying to so basically. He was persecuted prior to him sabotaging the church, right? and he had revelations obviously, we talk about the First Vision Right Joe Smith received the first division a lot earlier on in his life right so and there there's history of him being persecuted prior to him prior to him receiving the gold plates translate to the book of Mormon right there's there's record of him being persecuted before becoming the leader. The church and before having the church established when you say persecute me being arrested for fraud isn't being persecuted. That's being caught in justice served right. So what do you mean Zimmer said it was just yeah. Well, we don't know I mean we don't. Yeah we don't challenge any I. I. Guess. So here's here's kind of what's happening. So like if he had never started the church, right, we would be looking back at this person named Joseph Smith was not seen as a prophet and we would just go yeah he was convicted of fraud because he did these you know these things took it took advantage of people's money and that would be it but because he started a church later. Now you're willing to possibly look backward and then questioned the entire justice system and say they were after him. We'll. We don't do that for anybody else. So Joseph Smith is kind of getting special treatment because you believe he's a prophet and that would fall under the confirmation bias. Right he's all you already see him as a prophet therefore, you have to rewatch rewrite potentially whatever happened in history. I'm not I in no means I'm trying to rewrite history if it happened to happen. what that that's I'm just saying that it could be possible that in the time there could be injustice served. Right. the other argument that would have for it. I could still even if it's sure even if he was arrested for fraud for defrauding people for that. I'm a firm believer that I mean this. This is slightly politically even where someone could Aaron and or does historical figure does bad things but I can still think that the good things that they did. Are. Worthy. Of praise right like there's a lot of conversation the country about taking down statues of people that if they ever owned a slave, then the statue should be taken down even though they still did good things for the building up of our country. did bad things. I don't have cognitive dissonance that makes us. So if someone did anything bad therefore, they're bad as person I believe everyone does something bad right? I mean there's actually There's things that I disagree with and my churches history that I wouldn't. I would I would distal would be able to do right. and those were done by people who did the wrong thing totally. Okay for me to say that and to still believe that they could be a good person and do good things and that God can work to them because the truth is if if I I mean, I, do bad things to everybody going to say that they're easily say that they're not perfect because they fall short of their own definition of what's good right and F- I being. A sinner someone who does bad things I define to be bad things. That gives me hope to not even though Joseph. Smith. Had done bad things in his life that he was still useful and did lots of good things and right can do good. Sure. That's that's definitely one one potentially answer But then you also have to acknowledge that that then follows that it's also on the table. That because he defrauded people in the past. That he was lying about translating these blights, right? That's that's also clearly a. Conclusion. especially it. Particularly if I didn't have testimony of it myself, it would absolutely be I don't i. don't argue that anyone who doesn't have a testimony of the book of Mormon of Jesus are of I don't know why keep on SWAPO's. Of Joseph Smith. IF I didn't have a testimony of them. There's no way that I can believe it. Right. Just not possible for some of the cognitive dissonance take place were you were you raised in the LDS church? Yes sort of I mean yes. I was raised as baptized when I was about when I eight. And, I would say by the time I was about twelve I was out of the church. Well. Out later laughter, I can remember the exact time. So I spent the majority of my teenage years not going to church. You know not not having anything to do with the church and it wasn't until about I was twinned I think was twenty one or twenty two when I came back to church. Okay. So Do you think your? Your testimony of Joseph Smith being a prophet. Has Anything to do with you being raised as a Mormon. Oh. Yeah. Absolutely. Win where where are you grow up? Has a lot to do with what religion you believe Brian. Right. So I I don't I don't disagree with the fact that lots of people are gonNA have different things right I believe in Jesus Christ because I've received testimony of him and that was a prior to you know what I mean. Right Joshua was that Joshua the the Muslim. The Muslim in in Pakistan will say the same thing that he he knows that Mohammed is the one true prophet and ally the God because he has a personal revelation in a personal experience with them both. and since this very regional and very much based on where you live and especially in the United States I mean. Almost every Mormon I've ever met has roots in Utah or currently lives in Utah. Then very close to Salt Lake City So there's no people that are born and raised in. UTAH. Are Either Super Liberal, Anti Church, or very deep the lvs faith and so. Once we can take a step back clerk, Marion Jaren Utah than there is like that But yeah, I I get your point. There are tons of people and actually as a matter of fact, like downtown there's there's a lot of people who are very like social with each other I think it came at a reminded. Me Of has listening to what's his name that talk that we both were just talking about the they. David, Fitzgerald Total. Anti. Peace out they were like that's what binds them together right like that. That's totally the case but the there's plenty of people who are just like, yeah maybe I'll church sometimes and you know What I'm getting at is when they come around and you know what I was getting at, is like that you know. The LDS church is known for being altered conservative. Were you know fighting you know or for for supporting prop eight? You know gay marriage illegal and yet in two thousand, twelve Salt Lake City was named the Gay City in America like there's this there's this huge divide in Salt Lake, city One of our tolerance of those around us. Well Maybe now. That that's that's totally. Hasn't always been that way we'll. We'll get into that. One thing that I learned that I found oh sorry. But my point I was GonNa make earlier and I hate when I do this and I often then I never come back to it If you could take a step back and realize that the Muslim. Has Personal experiences with Mohamed and Allah, and the Faithful Hindu who was raised as a as a Hindu. has a very personal relationship with Krishna and with the various Hindu gods and the native Americans who have the very spiritual in native beliefs about the land spirits and the and the and the and the gods. And then you know Baptist churches in the south claimed to have experience with Jesus Christ and the Mormons in Utah claim to have personal revelation. That Joseph Smith is is the is a profit. I mean. Once we can nail it down to like the time you were born what city you were born in state you're born in what country you were born in. Don't you start to see that it's it's far more based on. Culture than it truth I mean everyone will claim to have personal revelations of whatever God is in their region. Right that that doesn't mean it's true. It means that's what they were taught as a child. So when they start experiencing things as an adult, they can't explain they then tie that back to what they were taught as a child. Absolutely. One hundred percent agree and. Actually are of basically teaches on that I mean I I wouldn't be able to quote where or what, but our general belief is that a lot of these religions you see. At some point if you go back far enough, it's a splinter from something that was fully tra. And we believe that God is going to When you act on truth, you're going to receive a witness of that truth regardless if it's partial truth, poultry jobs steve a measure based off of what truth you're saving. So the Muslim, who is receiving a testimony of things they're going to receive a testament of things that are true and if portions of that truth that they're getting come from that church, then it's very likely that they'll associated with that church. My only argument is that if you want the full truth. We have the doesn't everybody tells me I? That's fine. It's it's this life is going to be lived through our mortal perception. It's not going to be lived. and. Also don't believe that just because someone doesn't have my knowledge that they're going to be punished. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. We'll get into the Mormon afterlife in just a moment. One thing that I learned throughout this and and I love it when I was doing this. So long sometimes it's just you know filing back through my you know the files in my brain to say something I haven't said in nine months or nine years. But it's all in there as knowledge and so when I come across something I didn't know it's super exciting for me. One thing I didn't know. So whenever so I've had my my book of Mormon for probably. Gosh going on ten years now. And the first thing I read was the witness statement and I saw all of the names who had signed the witten statement. And I talked to my I have a friend, who's an atheist who was raised Mormon. who by the way? Who told me flat out that? He said, yeah I don't believe any of it anymore. I think Joe Smith was a fraud atheist I don't believe in heaven or hell or any of that. But I'll always be Mormon and I went what Like like Cultural Jews. Yeah exactly. Exactly, and that's what David Fitzgerald actually asked me to ask you is like if you stopped believing all of this tomorrow, would you still consider yourself a Mormon I bet him you would say yes. So what's your answer to that? Are you kind of the same way? Is it almost like an ethnicity if you will You you identified in your bloodline. So when I wasn't going to church I, did not identify that way I felt that it was disrespectful to the church from identify as a Mormon when I didn't really practice or believe knocked I think it's disrespectful people that do that. There's definitely a culture there right I just don't think I could hold myself to say. Mormon. By culture I if I did it would have to have that. That have to have that afterwards because. You know I like to I like to be truthful in representing because I don't want to misrepresent, and then actually that's one thing I should say is like I'm not an expert in everything church related. So these are going to my opinions not I mean we inter Dr Adam and I think that's a general spoken on this but I wouldn't. WanNa Miss. Misrepresent Church by when I'm not really inactive member and like it particularly if I've been excommunicated like there's no, there's no way that I would, of course just people who no longer. Go to church and consider themselves. Atheists aren't really excommunicated from the anyway so. Well here's the thing that I learned that that I found really shocking. So in talking with my with my ex, mormon friend. He said. that he still believes you know the people signed the statement he still believes people saw the plates but he he's an atheist. He doesn't get actually came from God. He thought the place from something else. He was trying to rationalize it in a different way and what I learned actually today I was able to find a picture of the original document. And I noticed it wasn't talked about at all but all of the signatures were the exact same handwriting. And I was like on the original witness statement. Because, in the book of Mormon is just printed. You don't see signatures you just name sprinted and I was like. Wait a minute signatures look exactly the same I was thinking to Joseph. Smith right. All of this on his own and and fraud the entire thing and what happened. And I looked up and apparently Oliver cowdery. Was the scribe for everything that was happening the beginning, including the witness statement, and all of those are in Oliver's handwriting, which means at aren't maybe this isn't a big deal anybody else but I was surprised that when you look at the actual original, it's all it. All looks like one person wrote it because he did Oliver wrote it all and he just wrote down the names of the people who he says swore that they that they saw the plates. Did. You know that they didn't actually sign a statement and that it Oliver wrote everyone's name down. I did I. Did not I actually haven't seen a copy of the document either Okay. Okay. Cool. So and then I was like, well, I know that these guys are on record saying that they saw the plates. So then I started going down this rabbit hole and you can do that easily with this stuff I was going on this rabbit hole of like Martin Harris and You, know the the concept that his wife was very skeptical and did not like Joseph and when Martin Harris brought over the first hundred, sixteen pages of the book of Mormon. She liked destroyed them throw them in the fire or hid them somewhere because he Martin Harris was putting a lot of money into Joseph and way up when when she threw the plate when she threw the papers away she's like well, if he can translate them, have him translate 'em again. And of course could not reproduce the same hundred sixteen pages because he said now that they are accessible to the world the devil could have compromised the word. So it had had to start over with a different message, which is very bizarre because if it's a plate that has symbols on it and Joseph was translating, it would be the same things but. That's one day. It would be too far fetched for someone who has mal intent you know of someone. who had that transcript decided that they wanted to disprove him to change it and say, well, the second translation is in the same as the first therefore, you're fraud. Then, in then Joseph Smith then claimed that God had foreseen this happening and created to smaller plates of Fi, and so he began that and that's actually how the book of Mormon Begins right. But the Harrison First Second right? Basically any fi you know when you're reading scriptures it, he actually says I'm not really sure why I'm writing this all down but I'm writing kind of giving you a summary of what was said in the larger plates. Right? It actually says in there lots of times, right so so Harris. Martin. Harris later admitted that he didn't actually see the plates he says. His name is on the the book of Mormon but he says I didn't actually see the place with my eyes. I. Saw it with my faith because the plates were covered with a cloth. This was something else that was shocking to me that they despite having a witness statement in these eleven people who allegedly said I saw the plates many of them came forward and said after the fact Yeah He Joseph Smith had the plates covered with cloth. We never actually laid eyes on them but. I we said, yeah there was like an empty box right? He looked in the box they looked in the box and said, we don't see anything and then Joseph started sort of yelling at them and saying you get on your knees you pray about it. You're being heretics will valley then prayed for like two different reference there which you what you're talking about is like because there's different times when people saw the scriptures, right? Like there's two different sections of. and what the point that I'm making is that. What the point the claim being said that witnesses were told to kneel and pray in order for them to see was actually around when the witnesses were there. But there are as far as I know records of Martin Hair saying it. But that's because I believe one Harris part of again I have to go and take a look and actually do the research Ted save for circe. So here's what I want to say is that I understand that Martin Harris was actually part of the transcription process during. which time he was not able to see the plates because they were covered and then when Joseph Smith would read the plates. There was a clock that was hung between them right to their tech terrorists to take that to take that quote I. Don't know at which point are they taking that quote from? Martin. Harris right didn't to say he never saw the plates what what point are you asking him in his life, right? Yeah I understand and well, my understanding is that it was after he left the church. DidN'T LEAVE THE CHURCH I don't know I think all of them left except the one. Okay. I think all of them I think everyone who claims he? The plates left the church except for one may be Harris was the one who stayed but maybe he was one of the ones that left I don't know but I know he's on record at some point later saying he never actually saw them but keep in mind too that Harris has also on record saying that Jesus appeared to him in the form of a deer and then he walked and talked with them for a while. And so I. I don't know. We'll see how much we can trust Harris. Early Church things. I. Kinda. Things like that I don't really take them as scripture or things that are to speak into church history, right? Okay. I claim that I have a testimony of Joseph Smith and I only claimed that in invitation for other people to try to gain the same testimony to pray about right to know for themselves. I'm not asking anyone to rely on my witness I'm asking people to find their own witness. Does that make sense? So these like this about people? Sad whatever research history like there's some things seriously Things that I would extremely disagree with that came out of Brigham Young. Right. Juncture, at some point we're going to get into. He's he said, I think I, think at one point he said that the sun was inhabited by people. Right well the and apparently they're second hand witness of Joseph. Smith. Saying that there's people on the moon and they're like six feet tall and they dressed like the quakers they lived in thousand years old. Yeah. Yeah or something like that. Right none. None of that to me is really all that like. I. I none of that bugs me why? Even if it's true regardless if it's not true by Bug Me because of the spiritual confirmation that I've had about Joseph, Smith Being Prophet of God. Okay. So let's work that backwards. So if let's say, your parents didn't know about all of these things about Joseph Smith being arrested for fraud about him saying people lived on the moon and were. Lived thousand years old and trust trust like quakers. About the the seer stones and all that stuff. Let's say they didn't know anything about the glass looking conviction none of that. And then they taught you as a very young child that Joe Smith was a prophet and your brain is at this very, very early phase right where you're you're learning and absorbing everything I mean the brain is a sponge between that four fourteen window. And you you're around seven eight years old and I had many ex Mormon friends come up and tell me that basically during the testimony these to get up and. The parents are whispering in their ear and then they're just the kids are repeating what the parents are telling him to repeat and they keep you know the sort of having their own quote unquote testimony. Yeah and I know Finley it should get that malice on the I'm not saying it's malice. No, no, no messing with malice. Let me let me get this out I promise you. I'm not saying it's malice I'm saying that they think they're doing the right thing, but they're telling the kids what to say, but the exposed to be the kids quote unquote testimony but it's coming from the parents obvious to everyone. But then it's kind of shifted really simple their options. Yeah, you know I believe in God I. Believe Jesus Christ. Encourage, chapter but it happens happens basically for every Mormon boy at eight years old it's very, very common and so point. Yeah and so that happens and then you become twelve thirteen, you enter it regular rebellious phase that every teenager goes through and the prefrontal CORTEX is in the process of developing in your brain. So you're not thinking long term you're kind of being rebellious you're doing your own thing. As as Luke Bryan says wisdom in your teens would be a lot less fun right? It's kind of that's the point, right? So you're running through life you're bumping around your being rebellious, and then when you get your wits about you and you hit enter your mid twenties in the prefrontal Cortex is completely developed and you suddenly start realizing that what happens in fourteen years is really gonNA matter and saving for a house is really important and having good credits going to help me two years from now when you're able to look pass Friday night and you start to grow up you enter this place where at that point you're like Okay I need to come back to my roots and he'd be a good person who are the good people in my life Oh, the Mormons it's my mother. It's my father. So then you begin to pray and then what happens in your inner psyche is the things you were that were implanted in your brain at three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years old is that. Joseph Smith is a prophet. So these things were coming back to you from your childhood you than experience that as though it's a revelation and now you have a grown man confirmed to believe that Joseph Smith is a profit and then new evidence comes out to say, Hey, man look he was convicted of fraud and hey, there's this know he also thought people lived on the moon. That's a confirmation bias for you. Mealy go at. Bother me I. Don't care about that because I have personal revelation. You know. But what if it should work in the other way? What if you can acknowledge that your personal revelation was in fact a personal experience based on indoctrination from a child that this was the one religion Joseph Smith. Was The prophet. and. That if you had known this stuff, the parents had known this off ahead of time it would have never been taught to you to begin with. Right but that doesn't actually account for all the times since then on unrelated topics that I've received spiritual witnesses about things. And many things unrelated, right If that was the one and only time at which I felt spirit right? I totally agree with you. But it's not. and lots of things have influenced me that. I've felt the spirit guide me in ways that are completely unrelated to sharing the Gospel. That are completely unrelated Jonsman. and to me and every. is a little different in how they feel it but to me, it's it's the same feeling. It's S. eight that had. when I when I was given my witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. So I. told them except like if if you're raised that way, you're going to be bill dopamine hit when you when you wrote that right? Because you're kind of going back to your roots, it's Kinda like You are conforming to a culture that. Says the right way to do things and you're getting a little dopamine him. You do that totally understand that how things are going to work, but it has not continued to be only around that and there's been continuous witnesses in guidance from the spirit for me. So. So Lewis and I totally would agree with that it just in like I had said previously my thing is not that someone else should base their entire belief off of my witness no, they should gather their own and if they don't I mean a lot of people that leave the church I would assume that they really don't have a witness right or they did they let it linger I. Don't really know what's going on right but. For me the continuation. Of Guidance and feeling of the spirit and at guiding me and unrelated to church topics. IS IS JUST A. It's a confirmation to me the truthfulness of what I what I was. Taught Pres. So let's get into that even from a Christian perspective. I, like to often think back to the days I was a believer and and think through things in in that perspective the thing that jumps out to me as deuteronomy eighteen says that anyone who who has a failed prophecy cannot be a prophet of God. And Joseph Smith made a number of prophecies that never came true. one in particular. Sure. We can. We can dive into those but I can I can say. I don't really know I've I've heard of some of them right? Like there's like wild night at some point in you know somebody who's GonNa become political leader like all these sort of things. I don't really put a lot of merit in claims that Joe Smith said something from second hands particularly when it's not kept as part of Church doctrine because. A Lotta. A lot of things that. Were Church doctrine back in those times almost everyone who was around Joseph spent. Okay. Let me take everything streak dodger, but but right but doctrines and covenants is pretty important to you. I'm sure right it has to all people Elliott faith. And in doctrine covenants one, fourteen one. He made a prophecy that David Patten on a mission, the following spring. He says fairly thus Saith, the Lord is wisdom in my servant David W Patten that he settled up business as soon as he possibly can and make disposition of his merchandise that he may perform a mission. Unto me next spring in company with others even twelve including himself to testify of my name in bear. Glad things a bear. Glad tidings. Sorry unto the world that's doctrines and covenants one, fourteen one. The property was made on April Seventeenth Eighteenth thirty eight but David Patten died in October of eighteen, thirty eight and never went on a mission, the following spring. So there's a whole list but that one specifically is in doctrine covenants and did not come true because David Patten died. So according to Deuteronomy Sir. It's not a prophecy though that's direction is the safer Lord. Love right so he will. Yet see that is a statement of the Lord's will but is not. It's not a prophecy of what is to come. That's direction and there's plenty of times where the Lord direct someone to do something and they don't do it or something happens where you know and it very well could be that in the process of David Patten, doing those things he was able to get is something together that would ultimately benefit church. I. Honestly. Don't know why but to say that that as prophecy say that it is them that. He will go and he's GonNa end up going. That's not what this is saying. Okay. Saying that I let me try to go which is a different. Okay. Let me try again history of the church volume five, page three, ninety, four Joseph Smith is quoted as saying I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the saints in the State of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers in that a few years, the government will be utterly overthrown and. Wasted and there will be not so much as a Shard left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children in the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished. So Joseph Smith made this prophecy in May of eighteen forty three but the United States government did not redress any of the wrongs committed and over one hundred fifty years later in the US. Government still stands he started the statement off by saying I prophesy in the name of the Lord and did not come true. Is this the sort of in the history of the church I'm trying to the history of the church volume at five page three, ninety, four Volume what five cancer Five page, three, hundred, ninety, four. Actually, just trying to find it because I haven't read through the history of the church where you getting it from. Where you have this through the church pulled up, Byu studies dot Byu. Dot Edu. So it's on the history of the Church website is the actual. you can scroll through the volumes volume five. The problem is it doesn't tell you a hero doesn't tell you what chapter I'm just trying to find the panthers yet. So three chapter eighteen is page three, forty seven. So that helps I think it's after twenty. Okay. Three hundred dollars. I'm just GONNA read to go ahead take. Donilon swim says here I and marked God of Israel unless United States. Then I would have to believe that there was redress considered I i. don't actually know enough about this. Particular circumstance. And it's something that I'll have to study into. Okay. Sounds. Good Let's make a note of it. If you WANNA make a note. In I'll be happy to his well. Sure Awesome because I would love to have you back and see. If there's a a better answer to that I would love that Another one is finding treasure in Salem Massachusetts and this was recorded doctrines and covenants section one eleven. it's. The the the introduction actually have the the doctrines and covenants pulled up. Church it's the revelation given through Joe Smith the Prophet at Salem Massachusetts August six, eighteen, thirty six. dancy against DNC one eleven. Can. I The Lord your God am not displeased with coming this journey notwithstanding your follies I have much treasure in this city for you for the Benefit of Zion and many people in the city whom I will gather. In due time for the Benefit of Zion through your instrumentality. So Weird. therefore, it is expedient you should form acquaintance. With, men in the city as you shall be led and it shall be given to you. So, you're saying there's treasure in the city you need to form acquaintances there shall be given to you therefore is yoga and it shall come to pass due time that I will give this city into your hands that you shall have. It in so much that they shall not discover your secret parts and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours concern not yourselves about your debts for I will give you power to pay them. But no treasure was ever discovered nor did Salem ever fall into the hands of the Mormons. Well, define treasure right since golden silver obviously talk about paying off debt. So he says Golden Silver but gold golden silver will be yours. Shirt. And that that the people will not discover the secret parts, its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours, and then don't worry about your debts. I'm going to give you power to pay them. Obviously that the Lord's talking about paying off debts that he has and he's going to be using the gold. North Likely again, this is something ought to look into I don't know it doesn't specifically I mean. The the way that he talks about having power of the city right I mean. It doesn't specifically mean that like that city's going to suddenly become like LDS church life capital ride or whatever. Right so. to look into this more but I mean number four there says I will give the city into your hands so that you shall have power over it. So I don't know I guess that could be left up to predation. By by saying that it doesn't mean that it's like. This city you're going to become mayor or whatever ride and you're GonNa you know. So having power over something doesn't power doesn't. Mean like ownership or anything along those terms, right? So okay. Here's one it's really really solid I. think that's that concerns Joseph, Smith's prophetic nature. It's in the history of the church again, if you WANNA go back to that same site. It's history of the church volume one pages three, fifteen to three sixteen. And you can start pulling it up because it's a little bit to read here I'll start reading it and you can find it on the actual Byu website. So volume one pages start on page three, fifteen, volume, one, page, three, fifteen. Can the way it starts off is pretty solid. He says, and now I am prepared to say by the Authority of Jesus Christ. That not many years shall pass away before the United States United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation pestilence, hail famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land to open and prepare the way for the returnable lost tribes of Israel of the. North. Country the people of the Lord those who have compiled sorry. Complied those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced. Gathering Together, to Zion which is. In the State of Missouri therefore declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare onto this job creation remembering that the eyes of my maker or upon me and that to him I am accountable for every word I say wishing nothing worse to my fellow man than their eternal salvation therefore fear God and give glory to him for the hour of his judgment is come repent ye repent ye and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zaire on before the overflowing scourge overtake you for there are those now living upon the Whose is shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled. But as we know widespread destruction of the wicked in that generation never occurred. While except for the civil war. Right wanted the civil war take place. Eighteen. Sixty That would be within that timeframe I don't know maybe I mean you may what? He said widespread rate with that. He's an earthquake That's as I was reading that I thought is he going to go to the civil or on this because I wouldn't say that all of the wicked were were destroyed in the civil war I wouldn't say that there were earthquakes there were in famine. And and pestilence it was a war well, lovely deeply died from sickness during the war. That's for sure I mean there's a lot of people that the Doctors Really Know How to cure. Right? There was sickness definitely what I mean. Here's an I'm not really. Particularly convinced that. The individual little things in the history of the church are meant to be taken literal and as a scripture. Right Joshua. If the Prophet of your church is speaking directly in saying that this will happen. In the lives of people there that there would be earthquakes and famine. and. That clearly doesn't happen. And now you're saying, well, it's it's not going to be taken literally. I mean, this is it's clear that you know I mean it's just a I don't know it just seemed like the clear confirmation bias that you see it's almost like this is so solid within you that there's just no matter what we find that Joseph Smith did or said even if it's in the own church history are just there's nothing that's GonNa. Make pause and say, maybe this guy wasn't what he said he was right. I would you this the same way that I do Brigham Young? I mean I don't know all the going on their right but Brigham Young said a lot of pins. himself. That Ended up being. I would consider to not obviously come from the Lord, right? And you can see actually as church goes through their history that they no longer. Allow just one person to to dictate the the direction of the church. Okay let me Oh I can believe that Joseph, Smith is a prophet of God that he did many good things and that there are places where he got it wrong not if the Bible and none of the Bible is the word of God because Deuteronomy. Eighteen in the book apartment is the word to God, right? No. Not if the violence the Bible. Yeah. Because Deuteronomy Eighteen says that if you get proof if you prophecies wrong, you're not a prophet of God. So, either you're a prophet of God like you can't say you're a prophet of God. And in say some things that happened in, they do happen and then you say some things that don't happen and they don't happen. If that's the case. Everybody's a profit from God because all of us can say things are going to happen in, they're going to happen and then we can say other things and they don't come true. That's just matter of chance. So if if he's wrong a lot which he apparently was and I've got one more in the barrel, your own share and a lot as what you pulled out like three instances that I'm not exactly sure how to how to talk back against. That that doesn't justify a lot because in this one volume, there's three hundred plus pages. So yeah, we can dive through into individual instances and I'll have to do some research and. Quite honestly. You've got a point I'm probably going to have to look into that scripture about whether or not if they get prophecy wrong than they're not a prophet right I'm going to have to look into those but. Digging into out of literally thousands of pages and finding. Individual examples and the minute texts, it's just not convincing to me. Right it. Okay. I've got one more and let me just say. The history of the church, the three hundred pages that you're talking about. Those aren't just filled with prophecies that came true. There's a lot of stuff in there that just about church history. So I WANNA be clear that it's not three or four things out of hundreds of pages. And I just have a list of seven here. I and I didn't go into all of them but I've got one more I want to share with you because I think it's really important but I would say you know a an alleged prophet getting seven prophecies wrong. If or even if if it six of that first one was a command that never happened or whatever. That's still pretty pretty damning to his ability to be prophetic, I mean I I don't know. I I think it would be hard to hold to say someone is a psychic. If you ask them what's going to happen tomorrow in they're wrong and then you ask them what's GonNa happen the next day and then there ride and then you ask him the next day in they're wrong I think they're just guessing, I, think they're they're prophesying and trying to pretend to be a prophet of garden. They don't have any more powers than any of us and this one. This next one I think is really important because it talks about a temple to be built in in Missouri. This prophecy comes from DNC eighty four. And in the introduction of, DNC, eighty four, a revelation given through Joseph Smith. The Prophet at Kirkland Ohio September. Twenty second twenty third in eighteen, thirty two. a revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant. Joseph Smith. Right there this is a revelation. Of Jesus Christ to His Servant Joseph Smith. Will you have it revealed to you what you should do, but it doesn't mean it's prophecy of what's to come. Okay let's see YEA The word Leonard. Psych Eerie Yay the word of the Lord concerning his church established in the last days for the restoration of his people as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets and for the gathering of his Saints to Stand Upon Mount Zion, which Saudi the new or sorry. Sorry. We shall be the city of New Jerusalem. which. City shall be built beginning at the temple lot which is appointed by the finger of the Lord. in the Western boundaries of the State of Missouri. And dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith and others whom the Lord was well pleased. So Zion Missouri is going to become a thing is going to become the temple fairly this is the word of the Lord that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the get shall be built by the gathering of the saints beginning at this place, even the place of the temple which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily, this generation shall not pass away until a house shall be built unto the Lord and a cloud shall rest upon it which cloud shall be even by the glory of the Lord which shall fill the house but. The Mormons were forced to flee. Missouri. Is Everybody knows they were persecuted and a temple was never built on that Temple Lot in the lifetime of Joseph for any of the people who were alive Well Temple wasn't built in lifetime of Joseph. There was a temple bill not they're not in misery not that's okay Directing them. To build something in Missouri versus. Saying I, mean, I would say in verse five it saying that the the you know that there's going to be a house a Lord. Here's the thing when when you're talking about revelation, I think that to understand how revelation works God speaking through someone. And they get impressed to do something. But if you hang on every single word, not the spirit of what they're saying then you've lost it right? You can this Joseph Smith's or I believe it's this is a dictation from Joseph Smith Right. He. He is saying this right and he very well might have felt himself. But it doesn't specifically I mean. Just When you when you receive revelation. And you are. Pointed towards something. It doesn't always come to you word for word. So if you stray from just the spirit of something. And received your own spiritual confirmation of what's being sad. And then that's the way the churches today things are said from the pulpit way to direct the church like, for example, the renaming of the church now. That's acted upon ask that you would pray and receive your own. Testimony of that is the way things are supposed to go. Right. But what if you want if you would if you pray and you receive a different testimony? The near heretic right man you know then. Like did does anybody in the in the church ever you know. Essentially, what you're saying is is it the apostles twelve? Apostles yeah. To the twelve apostles could lead. The Mormon Church if you guys if they pray about something and then come to a decision on now, the church is going to be called the Church of Jesus Christ, latter-day Saints are going to drop the name. Mormon and they tell you to pray about it to receive the same information. I mean you know clearly they're telling you what to think because there is no way Joshua and you know. You can. You cannot cut our hope. Yeah. Let me but you there's no way though that you could go back to the church leaders and say actually, I prayed about it and they said stick with the whole Mormon thing. You don't have that option you were told to receive the revelation. That's fine. I. That doesn't bug me. The fact that someone could come up with something else when they're when they're praying. Like that doesn't. The. So then on their behalf. I. Would. Suggest that they should probably for their sake, do with the revelation them to. If they know that it was revelation from God than they should act that fashion. Now, I would say. Make. Sure. It's more sure word revelation if you're going against what everyone else who has the same beliefs as you us but? I mean, that's fine. But the point of me bringing that up at all was that. Revelation doesn't. Work always word for word riot it's not God. Pick individual words. He was able to prompt the gist of what's supposed to be not word for word is Joshua up on wall word. So Joshua, how would you know the difference between a Prophet who was wrong sometimes? And someone who was lying about being a prophet. personal revelation as I do with all things church puts out personal revelation. But you just acknowledge that the church. Tells you what you're supposed to receive in the revelation, and then you go pray about it and suddenly receive exactly what the church leaders told you going to receive. Well, and there's there's people that. Feel as if they should be working some ways before the church announces it. Right like. You have to have such malice for the MEME, the leaders of the Church and think that the members of the church are like ignorantly so stupid. To believe that. Just because someone's sang at up there that they're gonNA follow it. Hook. Line and sinker even though it's completely wrong. At the half the just think that there's. A bunch of people who really just don't think and do what they're told. And there are some of those for sure. I'm not would let us. I'm not being offensive at all, but wouldn't you say the vast majority of Norman's Do exactly what they're told by the church. No. I mean brutal church, to be, perfect. we're told by the church, do a lot of things and I'm here's here's a good example of this I'm told by the church, we have ministering assignments, right? I'm supposed to do my best to try to contact these people less often is reasonable to maintain some sort of friendship. Lots of people don't do it when they shut right it would make the church better place if everybody did their best to friend friendship and fellowship everyone. That that doesn't happen to the extent that I believe the church leadership would like. Bright Just. Yeah no I I I, think that I would say that in the. Big Moves I would say a large majority of the church definitely does. Bright. I would also say that the large majority of them who are following have received testament of truthfulness and there's probably a ton of people who just don't care. Right well, I think I think Hoffman did a great job of exposing what some of the leaders of the in probably not the modern day leaders but definitely, the church leaders back Hoffman was doing this When he was, are you familiar with with often and what he did he weren't where he found. He found documents. Yeah. But he's also one of the ones that his parked his documents ended up being of fraud won't know what that's. Let me let me finish this whole thing I was going to tell you that. But so Hoffman found in eighteen twenty document from Joseph. Smith saying that his son should lead the Church Not Brigham Young. Sure and the church. Hoffman kept doing this over and over he kept coming up with embarrassing church relics and documents that would definitely shook the faith and the church spin around nine hundred thousand dollars buying up these documents to bury them to burn them to get rid of them, and we're trying to do everything they could to to to basically to bury what had happened. It was later found out that Hoffman was. forging these documents, they're actually fake and he was doing it to. Just get money out of the different churches because there were different factions that were splitting off some believed Joseph Smith son should be leaning in some belief Brigham Young Lady. So this whole car they were, he was playing them against one another for his own benefit now. Is Definitely not a good guy ended up being convicted of murder and was a terrible person. But what Fitzgerald points out not only in his book, but in the in the talk. The way he worded it was This proves not only that the church leaders were not only easy to do. But that they would spend thousands of dollars to hide the truth when they thought it was damning to their belief. So they are manipulative art like controlling people and hoping people will be sheep and not wanting you to see some of the truth about the history even. When false things are printed, they just WanNa buy it up and and believe it and then move it to the side to keep information from you and if they were fourth rydell transparent, they wouldn't be so quick to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to hide things that they thought were damning to their to their belief. I would see it differently Whether whether or not the church was supposed, you're not supposed to stop by those documents or not I. Mean I would just argue that in the end it was a good thing that they didn't release muscles documents because they were fake. you may you it that from the beginning that they were trying to control their populous but if you do believe in revelation than you could easily see that. God knew that these were fake and it would just be easier if they were bought up and not. A. Lot of well. So then why why would you god I guess why wouldn't God if the apostles are actually in direct contact with God and receiving revelation The moment Hoffman brought this stuff up. Why couldn't the so? That's one thing that WANNA preface, right. I believe and. I think it's quite obvious. The church puts this out that. Everyone can be just as connected to God his apostle. The only difference really between an apostle and myself is the fact that he's been called. To testify and Toledo so hill he, he's justice connected to God as I am. But. Well, he's been told that he'll receive hill received things for the leading guiding and testifying Christ things to how do. How do you know he's been called? Again it's definitely spiritual witness like I think it was I can't remember if it was two years ago or. A year there were about three new apostles that were called right and just the purse like you pray about it. And receive confirmation that God's called them. It's the same thing with the Bishop in my ward. Right? There's. You know stake presents I. Don't know if you know how the Organization of the Church but ultimately someone says, you know what? We believe this person to be called of God. Ask. All of the members of the congregation to you know to sustain him to to lose most of the people just like, okay. Whatever right. But the same thing can be can be given to them. They can receive revelation of the truthfulness of. Into, personal revelation. So key, you're not gonNA last in the space unless you have personal connection to got. But. One they're lying. What if they get promoted because of who they know and how much money they're giving and how powerful they are in the community and? Raised millions of dollars at one of the malls. Which owns the worst? Of the members of the leaders of no, not not not that the worst malice but they're running it more like a business than a church, which is why their finances or have been very secretive since the nineteen fifty-nine there haven't been brill transparent financial statements out and they did bill a multibillion dollar mall you know and they own several for profit corporations I. Mean there's there's a whole business enterprise to the Mormon Church. So. You think you're positing the idea that the church. Specifically. Does this for money when the leadership of the Church now granted the apostles in the general. Presidency. Do receive a stipend which is. They that in most scenarios. Is kept secret, but it has been confirmed to be generally less than that person was receiving in salary prior recall. So these church members the leadership. Aren't really making a ton of money off of the how would you know a lot of proof that they are? How would you know if the finances are being kept secret? Well I haven't actually looked into the financial documents, but I can tell you. That they do release financial staples right then particularly accordance with law the fiber one c three organization has to. Yeah sort of there are. There are some particular. Yeah. There are some. There are definitely ways around that Let me just be clear about that and so there are multiple corporations that that the LDS Church owns and what I'm getting at is. One, they will not that mall. Honestly, that doesn't bug me the way that I've I mean actually there was an article recently came out about how the church literally has billions of dollars. Total yet you know I can tell you that I I would view it. Primarily as the church. Practicing what it preaches to the members they received their tides. When they get the times, they put ten percent of it or whatever amount they've decided they're going to save and over I mean what the church is almost two hundred years old at this point over two hundred years and without a lot of serious financial things going on, you're bound to have a ton of money. Period and particularly with how much they get each year just from tightening like it doesn't bug me and and owning corporation. Well, do you think the church just literally has cash sitting around mean when people have a lot of money whether they do to save it, it's invested invested in businesses invested in the stock market. It's invested and clean have everything you know of everything you know about business and how things work in the corporate world. You honestly don't think that level of investments and the people who can benefit the most and bring the most into the church or gain land and access and power. You don't think that has. Let me finish my question. Let me finish my question. You don't think that has anything to do with WHO is quote unquote called to lead the? Church. No I don't. and. I think. You'd again have to have a lot of malice or believes that these people have malice. To do so. and. Why I mean, what is their motive? They've they do get promoted to leadership of the Church oftentimes, they're given US stipend, which is below what their normal salary as and then they're literally asked to demo- or devote every single day of the rest of their life to just preaching the word like what financial motive is that. Really. And yes. Like the Apostles, the prophets and I mean, maybe they literally made this huge cash investment for the feeling of people like you. I don't I just don't see that right? I. Mean What have to gain I? Don't believe that it's true what you're stating know of any evidence of it being true. But what would be the motive? Well power. A decision making. Decision. Well, first of all, I think it's To be one of the twelve apostles of the Mormon church is is quite a high ranking achievement stroke there. Well I'm I'm not. I'm not just GonNa stop at that one answer I'm and I'm not gonNA. Let you stop me at that one answering. Make It seem like I only have one I I'm saying that it's multiple things I'm Ca- you can't see me but I'm counting with my finger There's definitely a prestigious aspect to it. There's definitely a power aspect to it meaning they are high up in the church They have decision making ability. When of course, they pray about it and can make new rules and laws depending on what they tell you. They receive as revelation, and also there is an unknown aspect to it because the finances are not transparent we don't know if there are kickbacks or commissions or percentages, and I'm not saying it's with malice. I'm not saying they. They are doing it because they hate church members. I'm saying that humans in general tend to want to have more power and money than the next person next to them, and if they can gain an upper hand by being at a higher class for being viewed at differently and having more power control and money, and possibly over ship and some of the corporations or benefits in gaining access to investments that they otherwise wouldn't have been a part of or. Having these powerful circles of investments and an end and investors and people high up in the banking world and leading these corporations. There are definitely benefits to having friends in high places. So if you're one of the top leading twelve people that is governing the Mormon Church that owns billions of dollars in assets, that is a position of power. It's just the amount of other responsibilities. It comes with I just don't see. Any you a person who really wants to make that power if they have that much money that they can buy their weight in. Goodness Gracious. Something else with your money and you're going to receive much bigger, Bang No. On saying that they don't have the money to buy themselves in necessarily. But that you know have you ever heard a billionaire said, don't WanNa make any more money. I mean, billionaires are constantly making moves to make more money. So they by the way money, let's just be honest here. Right our list of whether or not, but guardless of whether or not they want money or not. That's what's happening. I mean but still I I just don I mean. They're being a financial motive be a leader of the church I just couldn't see it even even if it puts them in contact with people who have a lot of power. Like I just could not see but here's the thing. To what an even even if that was all true. And just small. No, there's actually fifteen leaders of the church. There's the first presidency which is made up of three and Cormac Twelve postles. but. Even if There was a big financial motive you power you die as an apostle. So to what end are you doing this like I'm GonNa go and become the leader of this. All this power UNIN. Be Stuck in until until I die. Good. Thing. That is. Definitely not a convincing argument that and. Ought to take a look at the actual like. Financial statements at the churches released I'll take a look. The maybe I can posit some more talk about this more but it just. The the requirements of an apostle does not me to me any sort of financial benefit that could gain or power benefit that they gain. Just just because they have a law of. Savings doesn't I mean? But Joshua I wouldn't have to spend more time on this. There's so much other stuff under the TACO but right. But if you think about it, you did acknowledge that it's very quite. It's quite possible that the church has billions of dollars. Billions okay. So How can you also then say that if you're one of the twelve people? Leading that Billion Dollar Corporation. That, you wouldn't receive some sort of benefit even if it's. Investments or even if it's part ownership in one of the private for profit companies or like, why would you think that's not a position of power like wouldn't it be exciting to be one of the fifteen people who are leading Microsoft or leading apple or leading google? I, mean, of course, that's a powerful decision to hold. Again. You'd have to actually make the argument that these individuals you know the apostles are. have in you'd have to show some things in before their live. Leading up to that where they're like obviously searching for power and look at these men's histories. None of them are well I mean I don't know that's I can't say none of them. I, actually haven't looked at all of the apostles it okay. Solicits that another time lets. Them almost all of them I just WanNa say one thing. Almost. All of them have been. Part of Church leadership, which requires an extreme amount of time unpaid in. So even if there's that benefit when you finally make it up to the top fifteen you literally spent. Thousands upon thousands of hours doing church service if it was something that you could purposely attain at all. Yeah. All right. Well, I mean the last say there is that you know like the Catholic, Church for example whenever the Whatever the pope resigns or whatever in order to choose a new pope. They say that it comes from God. But if you read on. If, you read on the Conference of Catholic Bishops it's it's shows the process and essentially. All the cardinals vote for some over one of themselves to take over. But they write it down on a piece of paper, and then they say a prayer as they drop it into whatever it goes into some kind of call June or whatever. And people are outside you know in in outside the Vatican waiting for the black smoke to become white it all it means they came to an agreement, but but the the public statement is not that the cardinals elected pope, it's that he was selected by God. So do you think that that new pope is actually selected by God or do you think men are making that decision? I don't know. I am not has two million with the Catholic church I don't know. How much they're being guided by revelation or by man, I think. Obviously. I mean in the book of Mormon and this is probably GonNa make some other Christians. upset but a seven, the book of Mormon that that great I don't think it specifically talking about the Catholic Church but I think it's talking about. A lot accumulation of all the churches. The calls basically mainstream Christian the horrible ears, right. I I don't know I believe that there are lots of good people that have lots of good intention in this world and what's going on with that I I don't know I I'm not. Familiar, enough Do I believe that God has some influence? All Things for sure that church leads a lot of people is it entirely possible that there? One hundred percent goodwill? Yes, I think that's likely. Okay I WANNA. Talk About two quick things on Jeff Smith before we before we move on. because I mean, can you believe we've been talking about the Mormon Church for an hour and a half already? And we haven't gotten to. ANYTHING ABOUT RACISM WE HAVEN'T gotten into anything about polygamy which often comes up in every conversation about mormonism. I I WANNA. Get. The you know like the planner salvaging. Actually. Happens in this life and like before all there's just I mean this this could be a five hour episodes easily this should be a three or four part series. I have so much to talk to you about another thing that that really I remember this from doing David, Fitzgerald's audiobook something that really made me go like this was one thing that I just went. How could anybody still still believe the softer was two things back the back it's what's known as the book of Abraham and the kindergarten plates are you familiar with the book of Abraham Story and the kitten in the kit? Excuse me the kinder- hook plates. Not the. Kindergarten platelets but I believe the book of Abraham was mentioned and patriotic people. The yeah haven't gotten there. I haven't even read their questions yet. So I I skim through I saw you say me to answer these now was like no way and I appreciate you asking me by the way. because. They could get ahead the whole show before we are rather show but So the kinder- plates. Were were buried in than they were dug up. And then they were brought to Joseph Smith they had these sort of these transcriptions on them that look like the sort of the same thing that Joseph Smith had talked about that he called reformed. Egyptian. which. By the way is not a real language which is another issue He called it reform to gypsum but that that doesn't exist and there's no archaeological evidence to support that. But this guy basically brought them to justice Smith he looked at them and translated them. And had all these words that came from them, and then a man came forward. And admitted to forging the plates was specifically to trick Joseph. Smith. and the LDS Church continued to say they were real But then when the the the the plates were lost at some point and then they were found. The church actually invited people to test them, and then it was, of course, scientifically confirmed that they were from the nineteenth century and were obviously fake. That's clearly to me. That is a clear cut case of Joseph Smith just flat out pretending to be able to translate something that wasn't even real. It had bogus non meaningful shapes on it and he saw words in them and and claimed that they were something magical before I get to the book of Abraham. What are your thoughts on that? I. I would have to look it up. I have not prepared. Are you by any chance? Are you by any chance keeping notes of the things that we're going to look up and then I can have you back on to talk about? Yeah. I've got the awesome things at the history pinned and then I'll have to write this down. Let me. Okay, Great. Yeah. It's called. The kinder- Hook Plates K. I, N. d. e., R., H. O K. Calendar Hook plates I think Joseph Smith said that they belong to a fair or something. and. Then the book Abraham though it also say one thing in that, right the one thing that you mentioned is that Joseph Smith said it was like. Reformed Egyptian or whatever like I'm a I if I were in his spot Believe like I. believe that he truly translated the gold plays into the book of Mormon It would not be uncommon for it to possibly go to his head he knows more than he does don't. Bright I I for him saying reformed Egyptian may I just to be clear for to beget Influence right I do like I said I don't think Joe Smith was a perfect man will let me be clear that I don't have it in front of me that he called the Kendra Hook plates reformed Egyptian but he did call the the original to it was at the two plates of of nearby that he said was reformed. Egyptian, believe and that's what he translated and so the guy tried to make the guy who who forged these intentionally tried to make it look. Like what he would assume reformed Egyptian. Have looked like if it existed just to see if Joseph Smith would say this is nonsense. It's not real to see if he was being honest or if he would use them to say a Ha let me translate these and he fell right into the trap. So Yeah, look that up and we'll. We'll talk about it next time. If you haven't heard of it, there's no point in being over the head with it the book of Abraham. That Smith claimed to translate was actually later found with Joseph Smith's handwritten notes on them. And it actually wasn't anything from a at all. It was like an Egyptian incantation spell for the afterlife at talked about the feral that it was supposed to be buried with and. Like it was actual Egypt Sharon and Joe, Smith pretended to translate them and said, it was all about the book of Abraham. It was from Abraham and it had nothing to do with Abraham it all it was about an actual farrow and it was completely fake. Yes so The stuff that I've been able to find on it I mean obviously first thing is it's definitely true that it was on papyrus right in papyrus. Was Not a thing when the Egyptians were around right like this was obviously transcribed or copied or whatever. Right From someone at some point. Not Obviously. Not by Abraham knows it is in the Egyptian air, but it's not in Abraham's time right so there's there's no way that it could have been specifically written by Abraham but the The papers themselves. There's some argument to be said that oftentimes he that statement that was written by Abraham was could been something that was actually. Put on the document itself in some way shape or form I'm sorry. I I'm not an a limited way. I'm not an apologist and I don't know how to actually lay out these claims all I've really got the site that I've read over from from fair more about enough you're familiar with that organization. I wasn't until I got the comments on Patriot and even know that there was an apology organization around. My faith. Before. We take our before. We get too far away from it. I just want to correct one thing that the Egyptians did have papyrus. It was right. US didn't have it. But the right right Abraham did not as far as we know. But yeah, the Gypsies did how it so. in the point that I was making is that the there's a spot in there where it says like it was written by Abraham's Abraham's. And I'm saying that could have either been. either actually part of the document that says Oh this was written by Abraham the preposterous right I I I'll admit that I didn't exactly read too deeply into it. I'm willing to put. This is another thing to put aside in talk about that'd be great but the. Actually the. Does. transcriptions are the ones that were recovered right now granted they're. Of them have been recovered right. So there's themes that were transcribed or translated that were that we don't have not all been recover. The ones that have been recovered. He made the claim Josie. Smith made the claim that this is like you know a depiction of Abraham and Isaac and that sorta stuff that Egyptians scholars argue that Oh no, this is just some sort of Some sort of thing that is common within the Egyptian religious beliefs that they're commonly now. The one argument I would have against her towards that is. It's part of our belief as I have mentioned before that. All the religions you see. Traced up the line. Had the right, the cultures and that. You know when revelation stopped going into the church, there's things that are changed. This is kind of kind of a general view of what we have the Bible. Was Perfect at one point and through translation and through oral traditions changed. It I don't know enough about the history to say that. Oh. Well, this was for sure you know the Egyptians. They have this thing that they believed the book, the data or whatever it is who knows where where they got that from and who's to say whether or not it was changed and altered from Abraham himself. At some point right I I don't know I would have to look more into it to save sure it just to me it's not that strong of Evidence that since we don't have the full document. And will no it's not where the Egyptian. No but it it is evidence that Joseph Smith once again pretended to translate something that he couldn't read. That's the whole point that he he he had his hands on it first and he made handwritten notes on it and claimed here's what it said. And he wrote down when Said and it was called the book of Abraham and Abraham wrote himself with his own hand and here's the story of Abraham and that's what this was. And then people actually were able to discover. What the actual souls meant and it turned out, it had nothing to do with Abraham. So Joseph Smith was. Lying. He was pretending to translate something he couldn't do which is in line with his fraudulent behavior in the past which brings credibility issues of him being a profit, which is why this is so important. There's also the argument that we you know. It's. It's also argued that Joseph Smith. saw this preposterous and It was more of A. Like. This was an inspiration for revelation as opposed to actually translating them himself. Right I mean, you can even see these writing down the things from a from the pirates that shows like the book debt and he writes on this is again this is Abraham and whatever any could have used it as inspiration to be powerful in which resulted in the book of Abraham. Not specifically translating the pirates could have been. Just raw revelation. Or could have been lying. That's still always an option. I mean that's ultimately going to come down to my opinion I haven't specifically. I'm, not. I've read the book of Abraham. But. I'M GONNA. Have to do some research and cry about it and see you know that's definitely one of those things where it's it's Again. You're going to have to have you