20 Episode results for "extortion"
"Okay so i'm doing a little new video today and i did a video along time ago that's what's called a brother that isn't extortion or this video was about it i think it's available online i still i think that that was about a brother that had extra juice extortion extortion rape you could call it the pastor in the church and it was from atheist a some atheist domain you know and what i wanna talk about i do wanna do park to a brother that decent extortion at and what we should do with extortion nurse at christian extortion and how we why you so so let let's say that you have a brother and you find out and or do you have a brother and this person basically has some been listening to a woman talking and eventually he found out that this woman told him something a secret and that they they secret came out this woman would get hurt and he decides to extort rape out of this woman because nobody noticed that that she can that this will make it hurt this woman with the knowledge what she has told him so basically issues if he's he's fast to this woman so since you told me this if you if you don't have sex with me i'm going to tell this person what you said you know and it's gonna heart you he's going to hurt you or whatever and so she gets afraid and she has sex with him now this is from a legal perspective defined rape today actually but anyway a you know if if a brother if you know if a christian brother dust this a a you know if you hear about this from a christian brother you might think like this a well while everyone wants it's a you know and you know what happened with don you know we are or boys and we want you know sexist so what people got guys won't and so on and it's normal behavior for for a boy you know and what i want to say about this is that the bible talks about something here the bible talks about a goal to kate spade beer i wonder if explained my reasoning here i'm starting forte beer and i'm looking over because it's their fear that proverbs twenty nineteen heat that gorth about acetate bitter revealing secrets therefore med the north way the human that flat earth with his lips what is he saying there if if someone has attained berry if someone tells you stuff that that you know are secrets and starts to tell stuff you know taint berries the gulf super gossips an atheist sit and talk to you might think oh this is fun i wanna listen to this guy what you should know that detained beer is gonna do the same things to you as he did to these people and that's that's the basic idea about this probe of so i think that you should not meddle with him because he he flatters with his lips at a knock the name that flat earth with snips you know apiary revealing secrets then if you tell if you met with him he's gonna ruby and your secrets you know in the state same things i think apply to a brother that decent extortion or if you find out that the brother the decent extortion or a has done that towards someone as extorted someone then you find that out he tells you that then you shouldn't men with him he shouldn't have anything to do with him because he's going to extort you to eventually you know it's just his nature and he's into that the end this is what the talks about in one and five and eleven but not written onto you not to keep company if any man that is called the brother be fornication recovered this or either left or raider or a drunkard or an extortion there was such a want no not not to eat why not dwell basically eating is a is a kind of a in the bible eating it's a way to forgive people since they become them part take care of their sins that when you're shaking with them telling you talking to eventually they're gonna use it against you know an m a so so that's a basically what they're saying is that you know if you if you come in contact with the brother and you find out he's export is beginning to extortion you know and there are brothers that are like this you know it's a and once they discovered that they waited basically it doesn't have to be legal but if you you know if you demand sex as an extortion that these illegal actually that he's a crime but you know a if the woman doesn't press charges then in my to remain a you know because basically she does something she doesn't want to come out you know so she keeps quiet as well but the the behavior that the behavior pattern over and extortion or is i you know i wouldn't do that to someone because i just again it's just not me my nature do those kind of things you know about a if you're dealing with someone who is into this you shouldn't have any dealings with them you shouldn't a even eat with them not have company with them and m a x assessing one question mark but i was explaining that using proverbs also because it basically says they gonna do the same to you so yeah he will do to you too you know he will do it to you to not for sex obviously if you unless he sent homosexuals something but before something out you know and he will tried to extort you and the the point i'm saying don't cooperate if someone tries to extort you don't cooperate don't compromise because you know they they're all the spirit that you know is what do you think happened if you cooperate with satan you know they're almost another spirit and and they knock off their mean people means it's mean nasty stuff and basically if you cooperate eight where the with and extortion or a they just gonna extort more i'll tell you you know they they've noticed they could influence you so they're gonna continue you know so i would say this about brother addition extortionate these people exist you know they wouldn't be written in the bible if this wasn't the applicable taxes and you know brother this isn't extorting it could be saved christian you know i'm not saying that they can't go to heaven but i'm saying that we shouldn't have any dealings with them because they go next door to you to eventually you know so that was that i want to say about that well i just wanna make this lease still a big deal so
"The Max Bergmann here for more of the asset podcast please go to our patriarch page at. Www W. W. dot patriots dot com slash asset podcast. That's T. R. E. N. dot com slash acid podcast. You'll hear the a full interviews with our roster experts and analysts you'll also get more exclusive content from the acid team like our interview with the Chairman of the House. Intelligence Committee Adam Schiff F. R. Y.. Event reacting to Robert Morris testimony and upcoming episode following the mysterious trail of Dead Russians around the twenty sixteen election and a whole lot more. Don't don't miss out sign up today at. WWW dot patriots dot com slash asset podcast previously on the asset to key. He figures are behind bars. Tonight both happen to be associates of Rudy Giuliani president. Trump's personal lawyer. ABC News has just learned that to foreign born trump donors who are part of Rudy Giuliani's efforts to investigate Joe Biden have been arrested. They have been charged with campaign finance violations and are set to appear in court in Virginia. This was the first arrest of the Ukraine investigation left Parnasse and eager from in both were associates of Rudy. Giuliani who've been helping him in his quest to find dirt on the Biden's but how they became key figures and trump's extortion of Ukraine. That's something we do. Now in. Their story offers a window into the corruption. Chaos of the trump White House. And how how. Many people stood to benefit from their willingness to shape down the Ukrainian government colluding about Russians which. I'm not even know if that's a crime polluting about Russia. Okay on April twenty first. This happened Ukrainian comedian has won the presidential election with a landslide. Securing more than seventy percent cent of the vote in Ukraine Episode Three Extortion on July Twenty Fifth Jeff Twenty nine thousand. Nine trump had his now infamous phone call with the newly elected. Ukrainian president below. d'humieres Alinsky this call came seven seven days. After the trump administration had decided to withhold aid to Ukraine from the White House released. Transcript of the call which may have been altered and it shows trump essentially extorting Zielinski. Trump is in effect trying to collude with Ukraine in the twenty twenty election. He Asks Alinsky to to work with Rudy Giuliani his personal lawyer and attorney. General are to investigate former vice president. Joe Biden trump was offering offering a foreign country the resources of the US Justice Department to investigate his potential twenty twenty opponent in suggesting that this investigation Shen was a precondition for the US Ukraine cooperation. That Zilenski desperately sought trumps started out the call by telling Zielinski that the US has provided a lot of support for Ukraine and that he's worried that the relationship is quote. Reciprocal he actually used the word reciprocal. In case anyone had any doubts. About the fact that this was clearly going to be a quid pro quo conversation. The president of the United States is acting like a mob boss Angry that a woman like you would be not just dismissed but humiliated and attacked by the president of the United States. The lifetime of service and sacrifice an excellent might be ignored by the president of the United States worse yet attacked in language that would embarrass a mob boss. What those notes reflect is a classic mafia-like shakedown before leader? That sounds more like I made an offer. They couldn't refuse much more extortion. Then Quinn pre. It wasn't a deal. It was a threat and it was a mob. SHAKEDOWN trump. Says I will say that. We do a lot for Ukraine. We spent a lot of effort in a Lotta time much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. The United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening thing. That are not good. But the United States has been very very good to Ukraine split Zielinski Gi then think trump and said that Ukraine would like to buy more weapons from the United States but trump responds. I would like you to do us a favor favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation. With Ukraine. They say crowd strike. I guess you have one of your wealthy people. The server they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things things that went on the whole situation. I think you're surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the attorney general. Call you or your people people and I'd like you to get to the bottom of it as you saw yesterday. That whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller an incompetent performance. But they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do? It's very important that you do it if that's possible now. The Price H.. For the license is less than twenty thousand dollars. That's right now. Why would I consider paying more than that? Because I didn't squeezed you. Let's break this down for second. Trump is effectively accusing Ukraine of interfering in the twenty sixteen election against him. He also seems to say it's a little confusing. Because of the ellipse that are in the transcript. Meaning we're not quite sure. Sure exactly what he said. Here that quote one of your wealthy people which may be a reference to the main oligarch backer Zielinski who is actually under investigation in the US. By the Department of Justice so trump seems to be saying I could make your life very difficult Zielinski and so whatever you can do. Trump concludes includes his comments. It's very important that you do it and quote and I south. I said Nice House. You live there little girls. Having a birthday hunts this family yes it is and to take care seat and nothing happens So alinsky now on this call has to dance. He doesn't want to get in the middle of interfering in American politics but trump is basically accusing accusing Ukraine of which Dolinsky is now in charge of of interfering in the two thousand sixteen election and in this has been overlooked saying that Zielinski is surrounding himself himself with quote unquote the same people in other words. Trump is saying. You're kind of looking like my enemy like my adversary pacifist Santino. Tina Gao Yu wrong fingers sunny for the budget. You play with my sister you think they could fool the Cardi on my comment. I swear kids Lewinsky is now on the back foot and he says he is quote ready to open a new page cooperation in relations between the United States and and Ukraine so he said sure he will meet with Rudy and quote. I just want to assure you once again that you have nobody but friends around us. I also want to tell you that that we are friends. I guarantee as president of Ukraine the all the investigations will be done openly and candidly that I can assure you keep saying. Don't worry dude we're cool. We're friends I'm not your enemy but Dolinsky response is also sort of a non-answer ya'll gal with rudy and I WANNA be friends isn't the same thing as yes definitely. I'm going to look into this and start an investigation into your political opponents. So trump isn't finished he. He drives home the point quote. Good because I heard you how to prosecutor who is very good in. He was shut down. And that's really unfair are a lot of people are talking about that the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved only. Don't tell me you because it sells intelligence. Xp Very angry trump's now referring to the Prosecutor General Lute Sankoh who we talked talked about in the last episode who was playing ball with Rudy Giuliani. Who is giving interviews to John Solomon and has? We'll talk about to the New York Times saying that he's going to investigate instigate Joe Biden trump. Then pivots back to what he wants. Quote Mr Giuliani is a highly respected ban. I will ask him to call you along with their attorney. Attorney General Rudy. Very much knows what's happening. And he's a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. There's a lot of talk about Biden son and that Biden stopped the prosecution in a lot of people. WanNa find out about that so whatever you can do. With attorney general would be great Biden went around bragging that he stop the prosecution so if you can look into it it sounds horrible to me. So let's remember who Giuliani is. He's trump's personal lawyer hired it to defend trump around the more investigation. I know almost every big liar. New York who the hell are you special practice. I handled one client. Trump is saying his alinsky. You really need to meet with my personal lawyer and this is also often been lost the US Attorney General General to investigate Biden in his son his political opponent in so Zielinski agrees. He says I get it. He says his new prosecutor general quote quote will look into the situation specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue the issue of the investigation of the case is actually the issue of making sure to restore honesty so we work on the investigation of the case. Zilenski says in other words Zielinski assaying. Yes the extortion is working. But trump doesn't don't want there to be any confusion about what Zielinski needs to do and he says quote. I will have Mr Giuliani gave you a call and I'm also going the have attorney general bar call in we will get to the bottom of it wasn't asking. I was telling Giuliani bar. Trump's personal lawyer and his attorney Attorney General his Roy Cohn the guy he appointed to protect him are going to give Zilenski a call zone Linski agrees to take their call but trump is still not done almost off hand. He mentioned that this is really ause. alinsky needs to do for trump to give him what he wants. This White House meeting the stamp of White House approval of American approval. Trump says quote. I will tell Rudy Attorney General. Barda call thank you whenever you would like to come to the White House feel free free to call give us a date and we'll work that out. I look forward to seeing you end. Quote trump right here was dangling. The meeting that Zielinski Linski team had been desperate to get in trump. Says they'll call you and then you'll get your meaning. Where's my Roy Cohn that's the question? President trump reportedly asked an anger after learning that his then Attorney General Jeff sessions had recused himself from the Russian investigation in two thousand seventeen president. Trump wanted an attorney general. Who would to protect them? Someone like Roy Cohn controversial lawyer that did represent trump and his nonpolitical career as the DOJ finds itself now at the center of the whistle blower scandal. Some are accusing them of protecting the president. The thing about a presidential phone call though is that they are not private other members of the national security team. Listen in is you taking the notes full of criminal conspiracy and it would be a bit of an understatement to say that most of the people listening on this call freaked out trump was is using the power of the presidency to strong arm to extort a foreign country to help himself politically he was once. Again trying to collude allude with a foreign country in this time he was caught in the act and it was so brazen that trump's own people people who volunteered to work for him in the White House who supported him thought it crossed the line thought it was too much in thought something needed to be done to stop him. Perhaps trump after Muller's feeble performance thought. He was home free but much. Like how trump's firing of Komi lead to the appointment of Robert Mueller trump's call l. prompted a whistleblower complaint which ended up breaking the scandal wide open so much in the Russia investigation in the Ukraine scandal has been incredibly complicated. Did but what led up to this call and what follows is a clear in straightforward sequence of events of a corrupt man in his corrupt team. Doing whatever it takes the help themselves. Even if it meant abusing their power breaking the law in extorting a partner of the United States. I Max Bergmann in this is the asset in Twenty Fifteen Ukranians tuned into a new TV. Show Servant of the people I it was a comedy about a schoolteacher who became president president of Ukraine. After video of him ranting about government corruption went viral. It was a funny show and he was a hit who wouldn't love to watch a TV show about someone other than a politician becoming president. The Star of the show was a man named Wlodimierz Alinsky. He immediately shot to stardom in two thousand eighteen. His production team started herded their own political party and called it quote servant of the people just like the show. They aimed high putting up for president just like on the show show in his platform focused on corruption. Just like on the show. A lot of people didn't quite know what to make of him including most foreign policy analyst and most governments around the world. Kaminsky is based on amd the Julia. Louis Dreyfus of Ukraine the town of laughter regularly get some of the highest ratings in the country three. He's also been playing conversion of the Ukrainian president for three seasons seasons people even compared to you guessed it. Donald trump in his campaign wasn't your typical political campaign instead of the usual rallies or speeches the Kennan and it would use digital platforms like instagram. He currently has eight point. Seven million followers Lewinsky capitalized on his image from the TV show. Just like his character he was an outsider outsider running to change the system that was corrupt in the message was resonating. Ukraine's comic actor Vladimir Zilenski owes his success in the first round of the presidential election. Two TV fame and a protest vote by young people frustrated by corruption and the slow pace of reform. In one of Europe's poorest countries giving people more important to me more than political is our ambition. The people are everything that Ukrainian people are waiting for us. Stunned this debate. That looked more like a rock concert. He promised to overturn system. That's long been run by rich all the guards. I'm not a politician Titian. I'm not a politician at all. I'm just a person an ordinary person who has come to break the system. If you've been listening into the season so far that probably won't surprise you. There's a pretty clear through line from what we talked about. Episodes one into about Ukraine's corruption problems. The multiple revolutions that Ukrainians experienced over the last ten years had failed to deliver the change. They were hoping for had failed to uproot corruption and this led to his Alinsky is rise. Here's vice just two weeks. Before the election connecting the dots hundreds of thousands took Dan Revolution in two thousand fourteen back then. Protesters had height. I towards ending endemic corruption and transforming the economy. But that was five years ago. Nothing's really improved and Ukraine is still in a war with Russia. That seemed thirteen thousand casualties thirty candidates running for president although only three serious contenders CON president and former Oligarch Petro Persian Co and two time. Presidential runner-up Yulia Timoshenko A well-known vote due to in part for the numerous allegations of corruption made against them. Both somehow the Linski is the most plausible fresh face. Face questions about Dolinsky then emerged right away back in his campaign was the oligarch who owned the TV station. That hosted his show Ebor Cola. Moise Komorowski has been accused of embezzling billions of dollars using his Ukrainian Bank that the Ukrainian government later privatized cool moist denies all of this but he is the kind of guy that reportedly hordley kept a huge pet shark in his office that he fed during meetings. That's not intimidating at all so Komansky has exactly the kind of track record word. That's Alinsky was running against so people weren't exactly sure if Dolinsky would deliver if you would actually tackle corruption and then on April Twenty first twenty twenty nine thousand nine hundred life imitated art Ukrainians went to the polls and the foods he one year old television comedian with no political experience experience now the leader of a country at war with Russia. We did it together. Thanks to everyone now. There will be no pathetic speeches. I just want to say thank you Alinsky. The ski didn't just win. He beat the incumbent Ukrainian President Petro Porsche. ANCO with seventy three percent of the vote he was coming to office with potentially a massive mandate and that was a mandate to tackle corruption in suddenly all of the work that Rudy Giuliani on behalf of Donald trump had been doing to cultivate altuva. People inside the Porsche Ankle. Government was in jeopardy. Dolinsky was a giant wrench in all the scheming that we talked about in the last episode would did he get with the program would help dig up dirt on trump's political opponents. Would he be on board for the natural gas scheme. Those guys Parnasse and fruman were pushing. That meant Marie Ivanovich. The US ambassador to Ukraine who is pushing the Ukrainian government to fight corruption to remove the corrupt prosecutor. General Yury let's anchor. WHO's working with Julian and who wasn't fighting corruption and she was opposing the scheming over Ukraine's energy sector? She was an obstacle and so she had to go. Ivanovich who's representing the United States of America was even told by Ukrainian officials that she had to quote watch took her back. Because Ukraine's new that Rudy Giuliani and Parnell and Freeman were angling to get her fired. So ultimately that smear campaign ain't push president trump to remove her corrector. I cannot judge that what I can say is that Rudy. Giuliani smear campaign was ubiquitous in the spring of twenty nineteen on Fox News News and on the Internet and twitter. Sphere so ambassador Taylor and Mr Kent and all of your combined decades at the State Department have you ever. Before seen an instance instance where an ambassador was forced out by the president following a smear campaign of misinformation orchestrated by the president's allies. I have not in and then in late April the director general of the Foreign Service called her first she called ten PM in according to Ianovich deposition to the house impeachment inquiry. She said quote things were going wrong kind of off the track and she wanted to give me a heads up. She didn't know what was happening but there was a lot of nervousness on the seventh four and up the street in other words the seventh floor. The top four of the State Department were secretary. POMPEO has his office was getting nervous in up the street. Eight from foggy bottom is the White House. And then you've got another call this time at one in the morning. According to Ivanovich quote she said that there was a a lot of concern for me that I needed to be on the next plane to Washington and I was like what what happened and she said I don't know but this is about your security charity. You need to come home immediately. You need to come home on the next plane. IANOVICH getting recalled back to the US and she couldn't even get had a clear reason why she met with the Deputy Secretary of state the number two official in the State Department where she was told. She didn't do anything wrong wrong. According to ianovich quote so the deputy secretary said that you know he was sorry. This was all happening that the president had lost confidence. And I would need to depart. Might Post I said what have I done wrong. And he said you've done nothing wrong. And he said that he had had to speak with embassador. who had been recalled for 'cause before and this was not that I was upset and I you know I want an explanation because this is rather unusual but he could not offer one beyond the fact that the president had made a decision and it is the president's to make as we know in other words trump had her removed on May seven th? US government formally announced that he was recalling. Maria vets one month gap between the time you left and went ambassador. Taylor arrived provided the perfect opportunity for another group of people to basically take over for Ukraine. Policy isn't that right. Partisan firm in the schemers we talked about in the last episode were according to their indictment and from the southern district of New York pressing for her removal for the past year. And now she was gone in a few months later. On July twenty fifth call was Alinsky. Trump would tells Alinsky that you're GonNa Vich was quote GonNa go through some things when you was asked about this by the house. Intelligence Committee Committee. What did you think of that statement when it became public? She said I didn't know what it meant. I was very concerned. I still am the questioner asked. Did you feel threatened. Yes in the White House in the National Security Council there was also a stunned reaction. Fiona Hill was the senior director of the top White House official responsible for Europe and Russia. She was clear eyed about Russia and she had written an excellent book about Putin while she was at the Brookings Institution in Twenty fifteen she was one of the few Republican publican foreign policy hands that decided to serve in this administration but when von which was recalled she was stunned. She told the house impeachment inquiry that quote there there was a period before the ousting of our ambassador and there was a period after this the dismissal of ambassador bridge was a real turning point for us and up there was no basis for her removal. The accusation against her had no merit whatsoever to hill. The only plausible explanation for for her removal quote seemed to be business dealings of individuals who wanted to improve their investment positions inside of Ukraine itself into deflect away from the findings of not not just the Miller report on Russian interference but also the Senate Intelligence Committee Reports Concerned Hill discussed ambassador. Yvonne riches removal level with the National Security Adviser John Bolton who according to hill quote directly said Rudy. Giuliani is a hand grenade. That is going to well. Well everybody up after poor Schinkel lost. The election. Giuliani wasted no time. This was a desperate period for trump and Giuliani. The more report had it. Just come out. The White House adjust deployed it's dubious strategy of stonewalling and not providing witnesses to Congress and so- Giuliani worked together. A story placed laced with the New York Times on May first two thousand nineteen. A story broke the New York Times about top twenty twenty candidate and former vice president Joe Biden's connections to Ukraine with the headline quote Biden faces conflict of interest questions that are being promoted by trump in allies. We've talked about the origins of this biting conspiracy. Here's the theory in the previous episode. And until now the mainstream media hadn't been handwritten stories about it hadn't covered it but now the New York Times the paper of record bit in they bit hard. The first nine paragraphs in the story were about Joe Biden's efforts to fire the prosecutor general of Ukraine Ukraine. As well as Hunter Biden's position on the board of the Ukrainian gas company Barisno. The only real news hook in this story. Was that quote a decision this year by the current Ukraine prosecutor-general to reverse himself in reopened investigation into Berea have pushed the issue back into the spotlight just as the senior. Mr Biden is beginning his twenty twenty presidential campaign unquote in other words. The news was the prosecutor. General was opening investigation into Biden which he had been pressured to do so by Giuliani. But here's the thing. It's not even clear that this is true that the Prosecutor General General Sankoh had actually ever reopened any case into Biden so the lead of the New York Times story is based on a fairly shaky premise based on the word of this corrupt prosecutor general. Who talked about in the last episode had lied to John? Solomon saying that Marie Ivanovich had given him A. Do not prosecute list. This this was what the lead of the New York Times story was about. But what was accurate about the story with the New York Times way to mention until the stories tenth paragraph was members of trump world led by Rudy. Giuliani had seized on the story. And we're pushing the Ukrainian government to investigate Biden. The story read that quote. Allies of Mr Trump have been eager to publicize and even encouraged investigation as well as other Ukrainian inquiries that serve Mr Trump's political ends Mr Giuliani's involvement raises questions about whether Mr Trump is endorsing an effort to push a foreign government to proceed with the case that could hurt a political opponent in at home. The Story Outline Giuliani Scheming. His meetings with both the Prosecutor General Lukashenko in the former prosecutor general shokhin who biden got fired tired in an even said that. Mr Giuliani called Mr trump excitedly to brief him on his findings according to people familiar with the conversations. Giuliani according to the story quote acknowledged that he has discussed the matter with the president on multiple occasions. So when you look at what's going on and then you see all of this horrible stuff and then you hear about Ukraine. You've been hearing about it. I heard Clinton was involved. I heard they got somebody who wrote the FIG dossier was it out of out of Ukraine all of the things that happened and I assume that the attorney general I would like the Attorney General to find out what's going on according to the time story. Quote Mr Giuliani said. He got involved because he was seeking to counter the more investigation with evidence that Democrats conspired with sympathetic Ukrainians to help initiate. What became the special? Counsel's inquiry Giuliani. There in May says he he was doing all of this to help trump politically Giuliani's quoted in the story saying quote. I can assure you this. All started with an allegation about possible. Ukrainian craning involvement in the investigation of Russian meddling in not biden the biden pieces collateral to the bigger story but must still be investigated but without without the prejudgments that infected the collusion story and quote in other words. This is all about the more investigation. Giuliani is trying to create a counter narrative for trump. And he's telling that to the New York Times he's literally admitting to what he's being accused of now on the impeachment inquiry and he did so back in May in the lesson here is how you construct a story matters. In by leading with Biden they put the attention on Biden not on the scheming of Giuliani and trump which was actually the criminal act actually the abuse of power and actually the story that could bring down a presidency but as Dan pfeiffer a former senior adviser to president as an Obama later put it on twitter quote. The New York Times reporter had all the information needed for a Watergate style scoop about trump and was so hell bent on fitting the information information into a predetermined anti narrative that he fumbled the ball. And if you listen to the first season of the asset the New York Times fumbling a major story should should not come as a surprise because on October thirty first twenty sixteen they basically did the same thing just a week before the election with the headline quote quote investigating Donald Trump. FDIC's no clear linked to Russia in mid-may two thousand nineteen. Giuliani had even planned a trip to Ukraine. He told the New New York Times and a foul on story quote. We're not meddling in an election. Were meddling in an investigation which we have the right to do. There's nothing illegal about it. He said somebody could say it's improper in. This isn't foreign policy. I'm asking them to do an investigation that they're doing already in that other people are telling them to stop and I'm going to give them reasons reasons why they shouldn't stop it. Because that information will be very very helpful to my client in May turn out to be helpful to my government rudy again again admits to the extortion in the New York. Times in the paper of record on May ninth. Twenty nineteen to White House officials. Trump's attitude towards Ukraine was inexplicably negative senior administration officials. Who worked on Ukraine? Just couldn't explain it. It was inexplicable will part part of the reason it was probably inexplicable to them is that they didn't listen to season one of the asset. Because if you had listened to it it's pretty damn explicable. The the podcast is called the asset for a reason in throughout the spring and summer of two thousand nineteen from wins Alinsky took office to the now infamous July twenty fifth phone call l. with trump one of trump's top advisors in his aide were bombarding him with negative messages about Ukraine telling him he needed to take a more aggressive stance toward Lord Ukraine and should not think highly Zielinski. The problem is those advisers weren't Americans. They weren't White House officials or State Department officials or even the US government officials. It was Russian President Vladimir Putin in Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban. According to a story in the Washington Post between between Zielinski Selection April and his inauguration in May trump talked with Putin over the phone and actually met with Victor on in the White House in the two months. After after Zilinskiene inauguration trump talked with Putin at least two more times I at the g twenty conference in June where they palled around for the cameras take time together very positive things so certainly in the laughed off Russian interference in two thousand sixteen bonded over their hatred of the free press Russia and then again trump talked to Putin on the phone in July. According to The Washington Post on trump's may third call with Putin trump actually asked Putin what he thought of Zilenski. The Washington Post reported that Putin who remember was fighting a war against Ukraine according to US officials quote. Did what he always does. He sought to undermine the US relationship with Ukraine in Putin called Ukraine quote note just a den of corruption even quote unquote derided Zielinski as a comedian the or visit to the White House was also controversial or bond basically weekly represents the worst of Europe so called populist wave. He and his party are antidemocratic. Anti EU Orban's since he's been in office as effectively squeezed the the life out of Hungarian democracy. The former president of the European Commission even called him his dictator Beulah. Not The usual greeting. You would expect to hear. It's an e you get together. The dictator was the word chosen by European Commission. President jean-claude Ymca welcomed Hungary's Victor Orban in Latvia. He was also the only European leader to endorse trump in two thousand sixteen. And here's how his visit to. The White House was covered. It was Viktor. Orban's first visit to the White House in twenty years and found a like minded leader in President. Trump probably like me a little bit controversial. But that's okay that's okay. You've you've done a good job that you've kept your country safe or bond has also played footsie with Russia engaging in dubious infrastructure projects and according to reports looking the other way as Russia uses says Budapest as its intelligence hub within the European Union as political noted back in two thousand seventeen Putin has visited Hungary several times since Orban's took office in Hungary was the first European Country Putin visited after his twenty fourteen invasion of Crimea. Russia also regularly boosts or bond in his government on its state run propaganda networks like RT and Sputnik. It's therefore not especially surprising that trump would invite someone like or onto the Oval Office but administration officials. Were against this meeting. They didn't want to take place. According to The Washington Post Trump's advisers tried to stop trump from meeting with Oregon because they knew trump would listen to him over for his own cabinet. According to one former White House official quote basically. Everyone agreed no Orbin meeting because we knew there was a good chance that trump and orban's would bond and get along and quote. We don't know exactly what trump and or von talked about because in something of a trend with trump. There were no official note takers. What was an hour long meeting? What we do know is that one official said that the meeting quote solidified trump's negative views about dolinsky quote an example of the president? They didn't himself under malign influence being steered by it. This is from someone serving in government. Who thinks that? The president is under the malign influence of Putin in May according to another Washington Post Story Mick Mulvaney the acting White House chief of staff and head of Owen be decided to quote take Ukraine policy out of the traditional channels input according to their term the three Amigos goes on top of the name there was former governor of Texas in current US energy. He's Secretary Rick Perry. There was Gordon. Sunland a longtime gop donor who made his fortune in the hotel industry news been serving the US ambassador to the European Union. The fact that he was involved in Ukraine Halsey at all should have raised big red flags because Ukraine is in the European Union. Indian there's also Kurt Volker and we mentioned him last episode because he worked at consulting firm that Ukraine's last president. Petro Poor SHANECO had hired to help set up our relationship with trump and he has been serving as a special envoy to Ukraine Volcker was not some hack. He was an experienced foreign policy. Hand had served in the Bush administration nistration and during his tenure was one of those administration appointees that wasn't a trump acolyte but was a republican and had been waiting for years to serve again in a Republican looking administration and was one of the rare breed. That was willing to do that. Even under trump to the State Department officials normally would have been involved in Ukraine issues. Were told to lay low. So that the three Amigos as they call themselves could get to work on May. Twentieth Zielinski was inaugurated. Zillion ski arrived to his inauguration on foot. The crowds delighted with the man. They've known for years as a comic touch on their TV screens. He stopped philosophies. and Hi Five's jumping to kiss members of the public true manner. The people stuff the crowds chanting Zilenski. He took to the red carpet and strode with panache through the parliament Alinsky. He was elected with a huge majority but how he would approach Russia in how the US would approach. The new. Ukrainian government was of the utmost importance. Ukraine rain was still fighting an act of war with Russia and he had been elected on anti-corruption platform demonstrating he had. US backing was critical for Zielinski. Both both the show his people especially those who didn't vote for him because they questioned how he would handle the war and to show Russia that nothing had changed publicly. He needed a White House. Meeting with trump that classic handshake photo in the Oval Office. That said Hey I of the United States of America behind me he also needed the US to continue to support Ukraine. The possibility of a White House meeting was being held contingent to an announcement how how important to presidents Alinsky was a White House meeting new leaders particularly countries that are trying to A Re have good footing International Rena See a meeting with us. President in the Oval Office at the White House as as the ultimate sign of endorsement and support from the United States and presidents Alinsky was a relatively new president. Is that right. That's correct. He was elected on on April twenty first and his government was formed. After parliamentary elections in July would a White House meeting presidents alinsky boost his legitimacy as a new president president and Ukraine it would primarily boost his leverage to negotiate with lot Amir Putin about the Russian occupation of seven percent of Ukrainian territory but Who shows up at inauguration for world leader sends a big signal INS? Alinsky needed a strong American showing. At First Vice President Pence was supposed to come which would have sent a strong message that the US backs Alinsky then suddenly pence backed out this wasn't due to some scheduling issue. The Washington the Post reported that trump. Actually instructed pence not to attend the inauguration the delegation that did end up showing was much much weaker it was led led by US energy secretary. Rick Perry Ambassador to the EU Sunland special envoy Volcker also attended while he was there Rick Perry also got a a meeting was Alinsky in there as the head of the. US Delegation Perry Push Linski to change the NAFTA GAS Board. He wanted Linski to replace members of the board with people who were more trump friendly. Now remember Parnasse in Fruman when they were in Houston in March. An energy conference were also pushing to change. The NAFTA GAS board here was Perry just a few weeks after Ivanovich was removed. Something that partisan firm and we're also pushing for here. He was pressuring the Ukrainian President to changed the board of Nafta Gas A.. What still remains murky here? But what's clear is that Rick. Perry refused to cooperate with impeachment proceedings. Now now if there was nothing untoward done by Rick Perry. Then what does he have to hide. Why isn't he cooperating? And just over the weekend we learned that Perry met met with Dolinsky without anyone there from the embassy he cut out the note. Takers Fiona Hill. The White House Senior Director explained in her deposition into the house impeachment inquiry that during this period she had met with a US member of the NAFTA GAS Board who the trump administration had actually appointed. She says quote it had come to his attention that there was a lot of pressure being put on the officials of Nafta Gas who had also reached out to talk to me and my colleagues at the national security already council to have other board members put in place in. This seemed to be at the direction of Giuliani now hill. who was running? Russia in Ukraine policy on the National Security Council was also like what is this hotel Guy Sunlen doing dealing with Ukraine. Firstly he deals with the EU and Ukraine is not a member of the EU but secondly he's a donor ambassador. They're generally three types of ambassadors their career foreign service officers then there are political appointees at our experts. Are Those with experience. Like former Governor of Utah. Jon Huntsman who was ambassador to Russia and then there are the donors every administration has used embassador postings to reward their political backers their donors in Sunland had given one million dollars to the trump inaugural to become ambassador. The thing about the donor ambassadors is that they often don't know what they're doing they're out of their depth. They have no experience yet. They tend to be a little bit arrogant and they cause a ton of headaches and Sunlen was a total headache according to hill so he'll ask sunland on. Whose Authority is he working on Ukraine and he said quote the president? This wasn't how things were supposed to go. These channels weren't normal in his testimony before Congress Ambassador Tailor made that pretty clear. I found the confusing unusual arrangement for making US policy towards Ukraine there appeared to be two channels policy making an implementation one regular one highly irregular as the Acting Ambassador Authority over the regular formal diplomatic processes including the bulk of the US effort to support Ukraine against Russian invasion to help it defeat corruption. My colleague Deputy Assistant Secretary of State George Kent and our colleagues at the National Security Council. Where my main point of contact in Washington in this regular channel this channel is formerly responsible for formulating and overseeing the implementation of US foreign policy with respect to Ukraine a policy that has consistently enjoyed strong and bipartisan support? Both in Congress and in all administration since Ukraine's independence from Russia in one thousand nine hundred one at the same time however I cure I encountered an irregular informal channel of US policy making with respect to Ukraine unaccountable to Congress a channel that included then special envoy Kurt Volker US ambassador to the European Union. Gordon Sunlen Secretary of Energy Rick Perry White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and then as I subsequently learned Mr Giuliani on July tenth these two channels converged twos Alinsky advisors traveled to Washington. DC to visit the White House else. They stayed at where else the trump hotel down the street and made sure their American guests knew about it. They were there to walk in. US support for their new government into finally secure a White House meeting for his Alinsky. The two Ukrainians went to the White House and met with trump's national security advisor John Bolton as well as Sunlen. I'm Lynn Volker. Perry and Fiona Hill. It was actually hills last few weeks on the job. The meeting was going fine. Bolton was careful not to promise a White House meeting but that's when Gordon sunlen according to hill quote blurted out. Well we have an agreement with the chief of staff for a meeting if these investigations in the energy sector actor start. According to Hill Bolton stiffened up in immediately ended the meeting as the meeting was breaking up. Sawan instructed the Ukrainians and Perry Volker ochre to follow him into another room. It was the post meeting meeting to talk about the next steps of the meeting. Got It basically. Someone is working around around the White House National Security Advisor Bolton could see them going into this other room and he told Hill to go find out what was going on. He'll goes down down. The hallway walks into the room and according to her quote Ambassador Song in front of the Ukrainians as I came in was talking about how he had an agreement and with chief of Staff Mulvaney for meeting with the Ukrainians if they were going to go forward with the investigations and Quote Hill says her director rector that covered Ukraine. Lieutenant Colonel Vigne quote was looking completely alarmed and she said that Ukrainians quote looked very alarmed as well. He didn't didn't look like he knew it was going on and quote Hill said she interrupted and said we can't discuss this here and according to hill quote and Ambassador Sunlen cut me off off. He said we have an agreement. They'll have a meeting and quote the Ukrainians leave in Hill in Sunland. Have Words and Sunlen tells her he had discussions discussions with the chief of staff and Giuliani. He'll goes back to Bolton and tells them what happened and Bolton tells her to go talk to John Eisenberg. The White White House counsel because according to Hill Bolton said quote Ugo Intel Eisenberg that I am not part of whatever drug deal Sunlen in Mulvaney. Are Cooking hooking up on this. This is the new testimony that Bolton apparently said quote. I'm not part of whatever drug deal sunlen and Mulvaney you are cooking up. This is not breaking bad. This is real life. Mr Bolton a very accomplished lawyer in addition to his other training knew what was going on he had a view of it. He wanted to warn the White House in no uncertain terms. He viewed as criminal. And there's a lawyer speaking to lawyers and non lawyers. He called it the drug deal so he couldn't be misinterpreted. Couldn't be misheard and that's not all we're learning from this new witness that Mr Bilden also warned quote Giuliani as a hand grenade. Who's going to blow? Everybody up Bolton reportedly told the witness to report her concerns to not just anybody to a top lawyer at the National Security Council which she reportedly did to put this in context for a second. This is John Bolton he's he's probably the most radical right wing conservative national security adviser ever in American history. This was the best speech of the trump presidency in my view. I think if he was as clear and direct as possible to be during the Bush administration he was too extreme for the Republican controlled Senate. Who wouldn't confirm him to be? UN when ambassador and he was strongly pro trump. Just eight days after this meeting on July. Eighteenth Twenty nineteen trump ordered his chief of staff who is also director of the Office of Management Budget. Mick Mulvaney to put a hold on two hundred fifty million dollars in vital military aid to Ukraine. This this was aid that Congress had already approved aid that the Pentagon had already certified that Ukraine was supposed to receive aid. That was going to Ukraine to help them fight a war against against Russia the announcement came at a run of the mill and SC coordination meeting with fairly mid level officials from all over the government lament. This wasn't supposed to be news-making meeting but when the NBA official at the meeting said they were putting a hold on Ukraine security assistance. People were stunned. No explanation was given why we're putting a hold on this funding nor would there ever be an explanation on why the hold was in place. No one knew what the hell was going on the following day on July Nineteenth Volker connected Giuliani with top Zielinski. Aide Andrei your Mac and suggested that the two men speak Song told Taylor and Volker that he spoke to his Alinsky in quote gave him a full briefing. He's got it Volcker said it was quote most important for Zielinski to publicly announce that he would quote. help the investigation having Zielinski Ski Make a public announcement is key to the whole extortion scheme. Trump didn't just want Zilenski to quietly reopen the investigation into Barack Obama into find. Find out if there was anything there. And if there was than may be prosecuted he wanted Zielinski to make a show out of it. He wanted a press conference. He wanted the public the American public to know there is an investigation that could potentially implicate abidance this was a public. Pr Stunt if this sounds familiar. Millier it should. It follows the same pattern that trump had pushed with Clinton emails with the scandal over uranium one with Devin nunes claiming there was a whistle blower jumping out of Avenue Bor with trump claiming. His wires were tapped. They were constantly looking for other scandals that they could put on their political opponents in. It's clear that Dolinsky understood understood what was happening a few days later Taylor indicated to Sunlen and Volker that Dolinsky was worried about being seen as a pawn in domestic. US politics saying quote Lewinsky's sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously not merely as an instrument in Washington domestic reelection politics. This text from Taylor is critical. It confirms that Zielinski Understood Investigating Biden was a matter of domestic. US politics about about manufacturing damaging news about trump's opponent in not actually about corruption in Ukraine in other words Zielinski understood he was being extorted on on July twenty fifth before trump's call was Alinsky. Volker Texted Alinsky aid saying quote heard from White House. Assuming President Zee convinces trump. You will investigate slash get to the bottom of what happened in two thousand sixteen. We will nail down date for visit to Washington. Good luck saying that agreeing to investigate. Trump's conspiracy peercy theories about Ukraine. This text message spells it all out. It says that agreeing to investigate. Trump's conspiracy theories about Ukraine is a precondition for trump meeting Alinsky and that the fact that one was needed to get the other came straight from the White House in just a little little while later that day trump calls Alinsky after the call. All Hell broke loose. The whistleblower complaint that was sparked after the call highlights. How pretty much everyone listening in heard the call and thought to themselves that sounds like an abuse of power that sounds corrupt? The complaint says the call quote deeply disturbed served White House officials in. It explains how White House lawyers scrambled to figure out how to deal with the likelihood that they had witnessed the president of the United States states abuse. His Office for personal gain and quote. It also goes through the details of how immediately after the call ended. The White House scrambled to cover for it. Up In a section of the complaint literally titled Quote Efforts to Restrict Access to records related to the call the whistleblower breaks down for us. How how the White House tried to lock down records of the call and how White House lawyers directed officials to put the transcript in classified network? That is the most tightly controlled control of four different networks that the National Security Council staff uses it so secretive that even top White House national security. Aides don't have regular access. The system can only be accessed by individuals who have quote code word access to specific programs that the intelligence is related to according to the whistleblower quote one White House official described this act as an abuse of this electric system because the call did not contain anything remotely Lee sensitive from a national security perspective. That's right it didn't have anything sensitive for national security just sensitive for trump politically. It's really important. For the American. The people to understand that the rules of classification and the systems to protect that classification serve only to protect national security interests of the United States. They are not there to protect the president from embarrassing information politically embarrassing information and certainly they are not there to protect criminal wrongdoing so the way this call was handled to me he was raising a ton of alarm bells. First of all these calls are normally classified. It's at levels. No more than secret I think is really most what most foreign foreign calls are are classified ads and certainly not at the code word. Top secret level which is a system and level of classification for our most most secret intelligence Elgin's programs so it tells me that there's some it was clear that the National Security Council or the National Security Adviser. Maybe the White House lawyers decided that this calls content and was sensitive enough that they didn't want to get out that they tried to bury it On the separate server and just to put a finer point on how bonkers this is the reason to have a presidential presidential call with another president of a foreign country is because foreign policy is set on that call. We'll who needs to know what. US foreign policy is. I don't know how about the people implementing US foreign policy. That would be the people in the State Department. The people that work on Ukraine policy the ambassador in Ukraine. But when you put a call with a foreign leader on a secret code word classified computer system in which they don't have access guess what you're not setting. US foreign policy so any claims that trump was just concerned about corruption in. This was a perfect call. Well then why aren't you distributing it to the people that are supposed to express your concerns to the foreign leader. You're what this demonstrates is. The call was not perfect. The call revealed a crime and the White House then sought to cover it up. We ten Colonel Alexander Vitamin the Ukraine director was one person who heard the call and he went immediately to White House. Lawyer John Eisenberg. That's the same lawyer that Fiona Hill went to on instruction from John Bolton after that Sunlen meeting Vin Min expressed his concerns to Eisenberg in Eisenberg's response was basically. Don't tell oh anyone about it. Vin Man has also told the house impeachment inquiry that the transcript released by the White House was incomplete according to the New York. Times Vincent Vincent told congressional investigators that the White House transcript quote omitted crucial words and phrases and that his attempts to include them failed and quote these words and phrases contain things like according to Ven- trump talking about there being tapes of Biden in other words the actual transcript of of the call that we have seen is not fully complete it may have been scrubbed certain damaging things may have been left out. Hence there's these weird ellipses throughout the call. Nevertheless the Ukrainians heard the call and they heard trump loud and clear they were getting the message in. We're intimating they. Were going to play ball but before were they played ball. They wanted to lock down the meeting. I 's Alinsky aid texted volker quote phone call went well and then tossed out some possible dates for the meeting after all on the call it essentially agreed to do the investigations in Zilenski was amenable to meeting with bar. Giuliani just a few days later. Giuliani went to Madrid to meet with Dolinsky aid where he hammered the message home. Investigate the Biden's in ambassador Taylor's public testimony the money before Congress. A new bombshell was also revealed. The day after the call on July twenty six sunlen called trump and told them about his meetings meetings with a top Ukrainian aid following that meeting in the presence of my staff at a restaurant. Besser solid called president trump and told him of his meetings in cave. The member of my staff could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador. Sunland about the investigations toll. President President trump the Ukrainians were ready to move forward following the call with President trump. That member of my staff ambassador SOM- than what president trump thought about Ukraine. That's the song responded that President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden which Giuliani was pressing. Hi and welcome to the program. My Name's Kerry odor mid on July twenty fifth. President trump called his colleague below two Mirrors Alinsky and congratulated needed him on a parliamentary landslide. Lewinsky's party serving. The people is the first party in post independence Ukraine to have an absolute majority. Here's discussed that today with me is. US Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sunlen. He's going to talk with me about his. How often he visits Kief what he likes to do here? Here in who we spoke with today. Thank you so much for joining us. Kerry how are you. I'm GonNa Thank you tell me about how your day was Well had a great lunch with my team but before that I had a wonderful hour long meeting with presidents Lansky that followed on the heels of his telephone call yesterday with President President Trump. Did he give you insight. And what they spoke about absolutely I actually spoke with President Trump. Just a few minutes before he placed the call and Not Not only. Did the president called to congratulate Presidents Alinsky but also to begin the collaboration of charting the pathway forward with the support of Ukraine and and a White House visit. That's upcoming four presidents Alinsky. That's great news because we're all curious about this. There hasn't been a date set for this sometime in late summer. One Important Porton thing to remember through this whole story is that it was happening while there was already an investigation ongoing into trump for colluding with a foreign government to to steal an election. Special Counsel Robert Moore Literally testified to Congress the day before trump's call was Alinsky in that testimony. He gave a warning election. Interference was going to happen again. Many more countries are developing capability to replicate. What the Russians have done? Is this in your investigation investigation that you think that this was a single attempt by the Russians to get involved in our election. We do find evidence to suggest they'll try to do this again. Why not a single attempt? They're doing as as we sit here and they expected during the next campaign. The House of Representatives were holding hearings on the Molar Report on the more or investigation and on August eighth. Jerry Nadler the chairman of the House. Judiciary Committee clarified that. What they were doing was effectively and impeachment investigation investigation? This is formal impeachment proceedings. We are investigating all the evidence gathering the evidence and we will at the conclusion of this Hopefully by the end of the year vote to vote articles of impeachment to the House floor or we won't that's a decision that will have to make but that that's exactly the process we're in right now and so on August ninth. The day after Nadler described investigation as formal impeachment proceedings. sunlen texted Volker about Tim. Morrison who had recently replaced Fiona Hill as the top White House official on Russia. Someone told Volker that Morrison was quote ready to get dates. As soon as you're Matt Confirms Voelker seemed surprised at this and wanted to know how sunland convinced Morrison to jump on board with their scheming. Sawn when replied quote not sure I I did I think is really wants the deliverable this raises questions about what trump said to Bolton or morrison about wanting to get a meeting with Zielinski on the books and let me just say something quickly about Tim Morrison. He is a bold acolyte he is a Russia Hawk and hates all things nuclear arms control in when he was the Republican congressional staffer on the hill he was a huge pain in the butt for the Obama Administration and so we have a Russia Hawk working for a Russian asset. This is why the White House foreign policy is so dysfunctional in so there was his awkward dance of who would go first. There was a standoff. No one wanted to be the first mover over. What this shows is that there was a total lack of trust between Dolinsky people in trump's people? No one trusted each other to go first. Silane said that to quote avoid misunderstandings and quote. They should ask Ukraine for a draft of their statement to review. In a later call between Volker Sunland and Guiliani Guiliani made made it clear that the statement needed to specifically name Barack Obama so zilinskiene Ukrainians. It was pretty clear what was going on. Make a public statement saying you're investigating getting Brisman Joe Biden and you'll get your meeting with trump. We don't need to speculate about this your Mac. This alinsky aid texted Volker to confirm. That's what the trump team unwanted saying quote. I think it's possible to make this declaration in mentioned all these things which we discussed yesterday but it will be logic to do after we. We received confirmation of date inform about data visit and about our expectations and our guarantees for future visit. Let's discuss it. He essentially saying we can do this. But give us the date. I confirm it and then we'll do it. Volcker said quote. I agree with your approach. Let's turn out statement and use that to get date and then presidents presidents Alinsky can go forward with it. And your Mac replied quote once we have a date will call press briefing announcing upcoming visit and outlining wining vision for the reboot of US Ukraine relationship including among other things Barack Obama an election. Meddling in investigations later tax between between Volker and Sunlen even show the two men basically writing out a draft of what they wanted Alinsky to say including investigations into Barack Obama and the two thousand sixteen. Eighteen election's this is straight up extortion. They're telling Zielinski they're telling Ukraine investigate our political opponents. And we'll give you what you want on a White House meeting getting to the final handoff to completing the drug dealers John Bolton called it investigations for meeting proved to be a little more difficult than the men anticipated as with any criminal deal. Neither side wanted to go. I Listen Jackie does this do lose them like you lost your job. Give him the disk. ICU But I don't see to worry about an. We gotTA worry about now. Tell you some Jimmy says reunion if I don't see about five seconds I'm walking in. The trump team was looking for a way to force Ukraine's hand and they had a way remember when they held Ukraine security. Assistance will on August twenty eighth politico politico published an article citing senior administration official announcing that the trump administration was withholding two hundred fifty million dollars in military aid due to Ukraine. They made it official in politico Ukraine. Knew that they were now at risk of losing two hundred fifty million dollars in military aid aid. We now know that the decision had been brewing for a long time. The New York Times got its hands on documents showing that the Pentagon told top Ukrainian officials in early August that the White House had decided to withhold aid and that if they wanted to know what was going on they should reach out to Mick Mulvaney president trump's chief of staff so the Ukrainians crain's new. What was happening in August and so they were willing to do the statement? They were willing to go along but they wanted assurances from the White House that they would get their meaning that the aid would be released given that context. The political article looks like it was just another way of connecting the dots. This wasn't just about a meeting with trump and some sham investigations allegations Ukraine's military aid was really at risk in Ukraine panicked. Your maximum skis aid. Texted Volker quote need to talk with you. In pasted the article link into a text and Volker played it cool. Hi Andre absolutely when is good for you. Trump had been due to meet with Zielinski in Warsaw Salk Poland on September first but he had canceled that visit because of Hurricane Dorian least. According to reports in so vice president pence went instead prior to the meeting ambassador Taylor had cabled to Mike Pompeo and the rest of the State Department expressing his concerns about how the Ukrainians were being treated in about the whole on the security assistance. At the Dolinsky pence meeting Zielinski immediately brought up security cooperation vice. President Pence didn't respond substantively. Typically what he said was that he would talk to president trump but he wanted the Europeans to do more and he wanted to Ukraine's to do more to fight corruption if this was too vague for the Ukrainians which it probably wasn't Sawn Lynn. was there to make it clear. He'd another backchannel meeting. Also in Warsaw were he told the senior aide to Zilenski that they would only get the aid if they announced investigation into Barack Obama the link between US security assistance and and investigating. The Biden's was now made clear in his vice president pence who was helping to deliver this message. And let's be clear about this. US security charity assistance. The four hundred million dollars is our money. It's taxpayer dollars. It's what you and I and everyone else. WHO's listening to this podcast? It pays taxes that goes to the US government that the American people have committed to you. This is clear extortion. And it's pence at this meeting. That's driving it home. TWOS Alinsky direct from the White House. Ambassador Taylor was clearly very disturbed by all of this and he sent ambassadors Sunlen. A text message asking quote. We are now saying that security assistance in a White House meeting are conditioned on investigations. Ambassador Sunlen responded ended asking Taylor to call him which he did and someone told Taylor that president trump had told them he wants Linski to state publicly that Ukraine investigate charisma and alleged. Ukrainian interference in the twenty sixteen election. Sunland told Taylor that president trump wanted Zielinski exc quote in a public box in other words. He wanted to Linski to come forward publicly. So then. Zielinski couldn't backtrack. He needed Zielinski to make that commitment in needed public. If there's any doubt that pence knew it was going on what's remember. One of his close. Aides was listening in in on the July twenty fifth call. Pence would have been briefed extensively before his meeting was Dolinsky. He knew what investigations meant but the three Amigos were still at texting back and forth in early September on September. Seventh Taylor had a conversation with Tim Morrison at the White House in which Morrison described to tailor that he had a quote. Oh sinking feeling on September ninth Taylor decides to spell it out overtaxed. He wrote to Volker and sunland quote. I think it's crazy you to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign ambassador Taylor and you're decades of military service and diplomatic service representing the United States around the world. Have you ever seen another example of foreign aid conditioned on the personal or political interests of the president of the United. It states no Michigan not not nearly five hours later and after calling trump to consult with him sunlen response effort offered to clean up the record quote. The president has been crystal clear. No quid pro. Quos of any kind and quote. He then said quote. If you still have concerns turns. I recommend you give us a call to discuss them. Directly S is State Department. Speak for Mike. POMPEO secretary of State Sawn win is telling Taylor if he's got a problem with what's going on talk to the Secretary of State so Mike Pompeo also knows what's going on and another point is simply saying you're not committing a crime doesn't make it so and what you see is trump in multiple occasions telling White House officials telling Assan land that he's not asking for a quid pro quo and then the next line out of his mouth or the next thing. That's implied is well. Ukraine has to do this thing in order for me to provide them what they want. I Want I e a quid pro quo. Trump is just saying he's not doing the thing that he's actually doing but trump is three amigos. Were starting to have a problem. People were talking. It was starting to come to light what they were actually doing. On September Fifth The Washington Post editorial board took the unusual step type of breaking news in an editorial about trump's decision to withhold aid to Ukraine. It wrote quote some suspect. Mr Trump is once again catering to Mr Putin who is dedicated to undermining Ukrainian democracy and independence but were reliably told. The president has a second in more venal agenda. He is attempting to force Mr Zielinski to intervene in the twenty twenty. US presidential election by launching an investigation of the leading democratic credit candidate. Joe Biden Mr Trump is not just soliciting Ukraine's help with his presidential campaign he's using US military aid the country desperately expertly needs in an attempt to extort it whoever told The Washington Post this was right and helped her for the public and what would become this enormous scandal. Taylor meanwhile was putting this all together. He Texted Volker on September. Eighth writing quote the nightmare. Is They give the interview in. Don't don't get the security assistance. The Russians love it and then in parentheses he says and I quit Taylor's threatening to resign. He's threatening to quit and saying what. The trump administration is doing is beneficial to Russia bad for Ukraine. And he's not going to stand for the New York Times reported that a public announcement was set to be made on my CNN program. So I think viewers my best understanding of what actually happened as we now know for months trump White House has had been mounting an intense campaign to force him to publicly announce those investigations. He had tried to resist and put them off in various ways but ultimately partly decided he would have to give in according to the Times. His team apparently concluded that since he was planning an interview with me anyway that would be the form in which he he would make the announcement. Just imagine alinskyites dilemma. By the time I met with him in Kid he knew the aide had been released but the back story had not yet broken into public look view Ukrainian officials. I spoke to about the release of the eight at the time were delighted but a little surprised and unsure as to what had happened so let's ski and his team. Were probably still trying to figure out whether they should still do the interview. A few days later on September eighteenth and nineteenth the Washington Post broke doc. The story wide open the interview was called off it. Meanwhile another brave individual within the White House the whistle blower a national security staffer offer had filed their official complaint on August twelfth. Almost a month earlier this morning. We're learning a phone call. Between President Trump and another world leader prompted a whistleblower complaint at the center of a growing scandal in Washington president trump's communications with a foreign leader concerning enough to prompt a whistleblower complaint complaint that's according to The Washington Post President trump now defiant and dismissive of that explosive whistleblower complaint against him to ridiculous. It's a partisan whistle blow. It shouldn't even have information. According to The New York Times in the process. They also brought their concerns to an aide on the house. Intel committee eighty. Who told them to get a lawyer? File complaint through September a behind the scenes battle had been going on to release the complaint to the House Intelligence Committee the as is required with shift going against the acting director of National Intelligence demanding that the complaint get released but the White House was sitting on the complaint. The Department of Justice Bill Bars Department of Justice was not allowing for it to be released and so we had a standoff and then as attention was growing laying over the whistleblower complaint over this dispute without a lot of clarity about what it was about and then as attention was growing after the Washington posted already reported on the hold of review a security assistance in the reasons for it and as there was this growing fight between Congress in the White House over the release of this whistleblower complaint trump then decides to just released. Hold nothing to see here folks totally normal. Just the crane. Security Systems is flying out the door. Nothing to do with anything. Just two days later on September thirteenth shift had had enough and subpoenaed the acting director of National Intelligence demanding that the whistleblower complaint beaver least to the House Intelligence Committee pretty soon. News starting to trickle out out about the complaint I we learned it had to do with a conversation between trump and a foreign leader sometime that summer that helped narrow it down so Linski was on the list but so where Putin Kim Jong Hoon in leaders from Pakistan the Netherlands and cut our next we learned. It was about more than just one phone call. The complaint was about a pattern pattern of behavior leading up to a promise between trump and the foreign leader. A promise the whistle blower found so troubling that they felt they had no choice is but to file a complaint. It wasn't until September nineteenth that we learned that the complaint was about Ukraine. The pieces started to fall into place as the Washington. The Post had reported two weeks earlier. Trump had withheld aid from Ukraine demanding. That Zilenski publicly announced investigation into his election. Opponents trump was abusing the power of his office to extort a foreign government into interfering in the twenty twenty presidential election and then later that night on September nineteenth eighteenth rudy just admitted to it now yester- Ukraine to investigate the allegations that there was interference in the election of twenty sixteen by the Ukrainians for for the benefit of Hillary Clinton for which they were already a never ending anything about Hunter Biden. You never ask anything about Joe thing I asked about. Joe Biden is to get to the bottom of how it was that Lukashenko who was appointed dismissed the case against anti you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden. Of course I did. You just said you didn't a month earlier House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler announced the House Judiciary Committee was gonNA open impeachment proceedings but it was unclear. How much of the Democratic Caucus was behind signed him? A lot of people just wanted to move on forget about the Russian investigation and there was one person in particular who seemed particularly uncertain. The speaker of the House Nancy Antsy Pelosi who had long been opposed to moving forward on impeachment on September. Twenty fourth after resisting. Moving toward impeachment policy made it official announcing announcing the House of Representatives moving forward with an official impeachment inquiry. I'm directing are six committees to proceed with their investigations under that umbrella of impeachment inquiry. The president must be held accountable. No one is above the law. There was now no turning back. Trump had allegedly extorted. You did a foreign meter for a personal political gain so the house was moving to impeach him and Republicans are going to have to take a vote. Do they condone what the president did or do they condemn damn it and the next day trump did the unthinkable. He confessed was largely congratulatory. was largely corrupting. All of the corruption. flickinger play was largely the fact that we don't want our people like Vice President Biden and his son creating already next week on the asset. We wrap up the series and tell you how this whole impeachment process ends. We look into the future and Well no we can't actually look into the future feature so what we're GONNA do kick the CAN. Okay here's what we have planned next week. We will do a special episode reviewing the last two weeks of the impeachment hearings this this will be available to all our listeners. It will prepare you for the mental combat. That is Thanksgiving dinner. While you're enjoying your Turkey and car ballooning onsides with Yellowish Tint. We will be hard at work working over Thanksgiving just kidding mom to deliver our long promised and somewhat delayed special episode that will follow the trail of dead Russians. Yes it's coming. Finally that first week of December in it's going to be great now. The full episodes will only be available to our patriots subscribers. In if that makes you kind kind of sad and if you feel left out well there's an easy way not to be sad go sign up today at. WWW dot patriots dot com slash asset podcast. There's also other content that we are continuously posting sign up today and support the work of the asset we will then conclude the podcast with our final the episode of the season the second week of December breaking down the White House cover up trump's other efforts at collusion and will chart how all roads lead to Russia. The asset is a production of the Center for American progress. Action Fund. Protect the investigation and district productive. Paul Woody Woodhall Max Bergmann executive producers and Peter Senior producer. The asset is written by Max Bergmann and the good people at the Moscow project. Jeremy Fanuc Talia Dessel and CNN Garelli and the team at protect the investigation. And Paul Woody Woodhall and his cohort at district productive the learn more about Russian interference in the two thousand sixteen presidential election go to the Moscow project DOT ORG and protect the investigation dot org. Please subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP and please leave a rating and review. Thank you absolutely perfect phone call. It was a perfect conversation. Yeah absolutely perfect.
MP Tony Clement's sexting and extortion scandal
"This is a CBC podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie. Not even forty eight hours ago as always eating on the results of the midterm election. At different kind of political story was breaking here in Canada. Tony Clement is apologizing and asking for an RCMP investigation. A high ranking long serving conservative member of parliament announce his resignation as Justice critic for the official opposition. Tony Clement has now admitted to sharing sexually explicit images. And video climent says your CPA is investigating as he's now facing extortion attempt today, I'm asking how a season politician known for his use of social media ended up at the center of sexting scandal. That's today on front burner. I'm bashing Capello. Same host of CBS's power politics. And I'm in Ottawa hive Ashi, thanks for being here. What do we know about why? Tony commend has resigned from his post as a conservative parties Justice critic and also from several government committees will what's so interesting. At least I think is that basically what we know at this point is all from Tony Clement himself. You released this statement essentially saying admitting that over a period he says of three weeks he sent sexually explicit photos and video to someone. He thought was a consenting woman. And then he says that that person whoever it is tried to extort him for a senior source in the conservative party tells me fifty thousand euros. So he admitted all that he laid it out. And then he said, I'm taking time away from my duties on the hill like you mentioned committee duties and duties as a critic kind of injustice critic, and I'm going to go spend some time with my family. He's married. He has kids and I'm going. To seek some kind of treatment. So it kind of starts an answer. We don't know what kind of treatment it'll take or if he'll come back in the fold and win anything about who's trying to extort him. The euro's is very interesting. Yeah. It's super interesting. We don't know a whole lot at this point. But again, it's kind of developing story. So that could change I do know that he referred it to the P. And then told the party the party says that they're not aware of who source could be, but that's the amount of money. He told the conservatives. So he said he was it was the number named kind of fifty thousand euros. And so the CPA is investigating there's people confirm that their vesting. But they won't they also confirm who they who might be suspected or any details about sort of the nature of the investigation. And do you have any sense of why he released a statement with so much information in it one step aside and say he had family issues while these details. Sure. Well, I think it was basically a decision made with. Party in concert with the party from what I understand he told them last week after he had referred it to the RCMP, and they discussed sort of a number of options. And I guess the central question that they looked at in figuring out how they run approach. It was can he survive this? And the feeling was from my conversations with sources in the party that if he did come clean, quote, unquote. An admit the details of it that that is something that he could rebound from. Whereas if the details were held back there would be a lot of questions because he is pretty well known. And it could you know, it would get a lot worse before it ever got better. And that would make something that he probably couldn't survive politically. Toni Collette, and he's also known for his prolific use of social media actually, hadn't looked Instagram account until this morning, but it's sort of goofy. It's full of what you might call dad sell fees. He's standing beside a lot of things a giant pumpkin giant apple? There are lots of pictures of him playing guitar. It's silly and self deprecating. What do we know about how Tony Clement uses social media? All good points. I would argue he's the probably the most prolific social media user in the party. At least the most well-known he has a pre big following on Instagram and Twitter understand utilize the power of social media everyday. In fact, my first draft of the speech was less than a hundred forty characters long. And he sort of figured out early on. I say this obviously with a grain of salt now, but how how to properly use those channels for communication in that he does it himself. He presents personality, and he engages quite a bit. See Hodge target power hash day, Canadian poli. That's what he was known for. I mean, he was all over Instagram. Like, you said the sort of self deprecating approachable image was projected by him. And it has been for a number of years. I mean, that's that wouldn't be a surprise to anyone in Ottawa. So it just sort of added to the irony of what happened. You know, it's interesting you mentioned before that. There's a sense that he might be able to move on from this, particularly if he is open about what what has happened. But is there a sense that there might be more here? Yeah. There definitely is. I think that is the sort of central part of what might affect his chances of moving on beyond this. I mean, it's there's almost this debate happening is he a victim of cat fishing or has he exhibited some sort of predatory behavior. And there is no evidence to back that up at this point. I mean, he admitted what happened with this one. Instance, there have been since then people who came out on those social media platforms. He so he's on all the time and publicly have said, you know, one of two things either. Yes, I'm a younger isg girl like in my twenties. And he was contacting me quite frequently on Instagram. And I thought it was weird. But that's where that kind of story ends. And then there's a. Hugh, others who have come out and said, no, I also received those kinds of images or or things along those lines. They have not. I mean, we have in corroborated that they have not produced those images as of yet. So it's there's a big question, Mark. But the discussion here is certainly is there another shoe drop is I know, for example, even within the party there are conversations about whether he was, you know, totally fulsome in in in describing everything that happened like if this had been going on for three weeks, and to this level where you were sending video are you sure this has not happened before he told them that it hasn't. But there I think everybody is sort of you know, a little bit hesitant to buy into that completely. Even interfere said, I take him at his word, and that's a pretty specific statement. Do we know anything more about the extortion attempt beyond the money that was asked for so I know that he says on the national security and intelligence committee, and there would be some obvious concerns around the information that someone on that committee would have well that is again, there are just so many questions about that. Because so he sits on this committee, which is a really unique committee in that the members which come from different parties have a very high level of security clearance. I think they've met something like fifty times. So they meet pretty frequently. And they talk about and are supposed to offer oversight on the most sensitive intelligence issues in this country. So all of a sudden, you have one of those members embroiled in some sort of, you know, cat fishing extortion scheme where he's being blackmailed. It's to the point where the Privy Council, so you know, very official body had to be made aware they had to brief the prime minister that blackmailing was involved. We don't know if it had anything to do with his. Duties anything to do with the country or his duties on parliament hill. We just don't know that to be truthful, but those questions are definitely being asked. And there haven't been a lot of answers. It's interesting sending news or videos. It's something that people obviously do, but I always have a hard time wrapping my head around. Why someone in this position would do this? You know, he's not the first holiday season to step aside after scandal like this. No, not that. I feel like I I don't know if you've watched Anthony Weiner documentary, but I have. Yeah. I felt like I watched that whole sake thinking why why why like I don't I I guess everybody. You know, I feel like everybody does do things that they regretted we all make mistakes. But it's dangerous putting anything like that on the internet. No matter how private you think. It is no matter how much you trust their person. So I I can't comprehend especially because he's also so social media savvy. It's not like it's someone who never does anything to do with the internet. Right. He's not new to the internet. No, I'm I also don't want to lose sight here about how serious this allegation of extortion is almost like a really hard thing to to pigeon hole. Right. If you want to characterize this event like is. He there too is there's almost two is to look at it and they're not necessarily mutually excuse exclusive. Like, he's he could have this exhibit this predatory behavior if a pattern actually with evidences is presented, but you know. He also could be a victim of a crime. It could be a bit of both. Basically, we don't know. Can we talk a little bit about Tony Clement the politician so up until this point what is he best known for? And can you give me a sense of his place in the conservative party? How how important is he he's important conservative MP? Tony Clement has been a staple of Tory politics for the better part of three decades. Definitely one of the more recognizable people in the party. He's run for the leadership twice unsuccessfully. Once in the last round, he ended up withdrawing because he couldn't kind of meet his fundraising targets, and then he ran back in the early days. He's held under prime minister Harper he held like fairly substantial cabinet pro royals, including I think he was minister of health minister of industry and president of the treasury board. He also ran for the provincial leadership the the PC party leadership years ago, and he was in government there, and he served like a myriad of ministerial portfolios. They're like health in transport, and I think he served under both my cares and Ernie's so he has had a long political. Career. He is. I mean, he's not the most prominent of all conservative MP's. But he is I would say like a recognizable face with the conservative party. And I can honestly say nobody would have seen this coming, and I should correct that nobody in the political arena because there are a lot of people on Twitter saying, oh, yeah. Big surprise. Like, he message me all the time. But honestly, the reaction around the newsroom, and everyone who was contacting each other as it came out among the political parties was really Tony comment. Like, he just he didn't come across that way. Sure. He was in scramming lot and doing things along those veins in that vein. But I don't think people really would have seen something to this degree. We heard from conservative Andrew Scheer on Tony Clemenza position to step back from a lot of his duties sheer called it a terrible apps in judgment. But also he said he was encouraged that Tony had decided to seek help. And that he wished him all the best in doing. So Gino journey more about what this help might be. No. That's what's so weird about this whole story is I've reached out to Tony Clemente uh. I I have not heard back. But I I don't know what help you need to. I'm not really sure is it marriage counseling is that. I don't know what treatment, you know, combat the idea of sending sending videos of yourself laying. I that connection has not been made by the conservative party or Tony Clement at this point. And I think as we move forward that becomes a big question to my understanding is he'll be gone for months. So I don't know what that treatment consists of and when he comes back, you know, what will he say about that? And what's the? The goal of the treatment not to send pictures anymore. Or is it? I mean, if you're undergoing marriage counselor or something along those lines like that makes sense, but they're not they have not been clear about that. Thank you so much. Okay. Thanks so much for having me. After she, and I spoke there were some dates to the story on Wednesday. Tony Clement left the conservative caucus at the request of opposition leader intra share. So he's no longer part of the conservative party right now. But he still remains an MP in a scrum. The conservative leader, explained wise. That this was an isolated incident since then there have been numerous reports of of other infants allegations. So in that in that respect, I've asked Tony to resigned from caucus you can respond to. And then in an Email to the global mail, Mr. Coleman acknowledged numerous interactions with individuals on social media, but he denied any harassing behavior. Writing quote, I've never sent unsolicited harassing messages effort. That's all for today. I'm debbie. Thanks for listening to front burner. For more CBC podcasts. Goto CBC dot CA slash podcasts.
Trump v The Asylum Seekers
"It's war on immigrants. The trump administration has struck again. Soy Cover your Lewin Gregorio Organza Voor de la Asi illu Massachusetts e estee is not totally were civilize gonNA level they US Saliou Bill Newman in mid-july the trump administration announced rules that as a practical matter if and when they take effect would prohibit any migrant from Central America from even being considered for asylum in the United States no matter how oh horrific the persecution the violence the extortion no matter how horrifying the threats of rape and murder against that person and their family the new rules would deny a migrant refugee the right to apply for asylum in the United States unless that that person has applied for asylum in a country neighboring his own or country he or she has passed through that trump administration requirement would violate the law of the United States which says those refugees those migrants have a right to seek an apply for asylum and it violates international law and treaties and it's an utterly uneatable requirement. There is however hope that this can be defeated Congress not the president has the authority to enact laws and so the A._C._l._U. and many other.
Ransom DDoS is now a widespread problem. Phishing campaign stages malicious payloads in legitimate file-sharing services. Back to school? Back with a new cyber risk.
Jeff Bezos Accuses National Enquirer of Extortion And Blackmail; Of Red Lines And White Houses; House Dems Setting Up Showdown Over Pres. Trump's Taxes; The Ridiculist
"This podcast is brought to you by book dotcom in partnership with the cantata row tourism board, book dot com. The number one site for all inclusive beach vacations tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Zanny offers thousands of affordable. I wear styles starting at just six ninety five visits any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Good evening. We are following a bizarre ugly and potentially very big story. Amazon founder and Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos accusing David pecker owner of the National Enquirer an ally of the presidents of extortion and blackmail and paying for an investigation that the National Enquirer certainly appears to be concerned about pecker you'll recall help candidate Trump hush-up his alleged affair with playboy model. Karen mcdougal? The question is what does he up now? CNN Shimon procured joins us now with that. So talk about the allegations that Jeff Bezos is making here. Yeah. Anderson it certainly extrordinary to see this Jeff Bezos publishing emails and writing about how the National Enquirer the top level people at the National Enquirer. He says we're trying to extort him and blackmail him over a Washington Post story that was published concerning now the National Enquirer and some of their relationship and some of their the reason perhaps why they were publishing some of this information and how they were using some. Politically. So the National Enquirer was trying innocence to perhaps maybe killed a story or they wanted them to use a statement from the National Enquirer. So Jeff Bezos here says that essentially the National Enquirer was trying to blackmail, and he has emails in one of the emails that came from the national require I it said, quote that with the Washington Post poised to publish unsubstantiated rumors of the national enquirers initial report I wanted to describe to you the photos obtained during our news gathering in addition to the below the best selfie otherwise colloquially known as and then the they write the Enquirer obtained a further nine images. And of course, this all comes after the National Enquirer had written a story about an affair that Jeff Bezos was having and certainly did not end because the Washington Post started pursuing stories about the national choir. And it seems by these emails that the national choir was trying to get the story. Killed and they're basically saying in these emails describing in great detail, the photographs that they have which you know, might embarrassing for for Jeff Bezos. But he I mean, it's pretty remarkable the strategy. He is taken. He's obviously got a lot of means. He's got a guy named Gavin de Becker who is as rob a security expert who's heading up his investigation and by making these emails public. I mean, he's basically thrown down the gauntlet saying, I'm not going to be blackmailed. I'm not going to be extorted here. That's exactly what he's doing. He's obviously trying to get ahead of it. And he knows you know, and everyone knows what the national car has done in previous cases, and he himself here. Trying to get ahead of it. And you're right. He did hire an investigator. But he says that there are several investigations into this. The big question also Anderson has been how did the National Enquirer get a hold of this information. The tax other information that they initially had reported on and their initial story concerning the affair of. Between Jeff Bezos. And this woman that has always been a question. And now they have all these other photos that were seemed to have come from a cell phone. They were text messages and photos that were shared between Jeff Bezos, and this woman, and now they have all of this information and the big question, I they would Basil's is trying to find out who was behind this. How did the National Enquirer get ahold of this, and obviously David pecker and President Trump have a longstanding relationship as well. Yeah. Very long standing relationship. And as you said, you know, he was involved in the capture and kill the National Enquirer involving Karen McDougal other stories certainly and they've known each other for many many years. However, you know, recently from what I've been told their relationship is kind of soured since the whole SDN y since David pecker and AM I started cooperating in the investigation of those hush payments to Karen McDougal, and stormy Daniels and that their relationship has somewhat soured. Don't know if that is still the case today, but that. Relationship between the president and David pecker, certainly becomes more interesting, given the relationship between the president and Jeff Bezos and the Washington Post and his attacks on the Washington Post there could be motive here. Right. And that's going to be something that I think Basil's investigators are trying to get to the bottom of it's incredible Shimon program as we're going to have more on this story as it continues to unfold throughout the hour right now, though, tonight's other developing story the president's behavior in the face of investigations, just keep hitting closer to home. If you're looking for evidence that House Democrats are getting under President Trump skin with this growing wave. You don't have to go far the president has all but shouting from the rooftops. The president got on Twitter this morning in part to rail against the rush investigation. But also rage about a White House personnel matter the dims and their committees are going nuts. The president tweeted the Republicans never did this to President Obama. There would be no time left to run the government. I hear other committee heads will do the same thing even stealing people who work at Whitehouse. A continuation of which hunt now even. Stealing people who work at White House. He says keeping them honest when reporters asked a White House official what that meant they were told to ask Adam shift, the chairman of the house intelligence committee. So we asked the committee and aid telling us they have hired individuals with experience on the national Security Council staff, but the no recent hire came directly from the White House. So wherever however you define hiring from or stealing from the White House. It's pretty clear. The president is now sweating even the smallest off in the face of a growing investigative effort that House Democrats now say will reach into areas. The president's one said we're off limits. He said that in an interview with the New York Times. Your your family's finances on related to Russia is that a red long. But that'd be a breach of what his actual. I would say is. I would say of by the way, I was I don't I don't. I mean, sponsoring this condo or something. So, you know, sell a lot of Kindel units. Somebody somebody Russia. Vice who knows I don't think when it from Russian. So that was two summers ago. And yes, we've learned since then the president had been less than forthcoming during and after the campaign about the pursuit of business in Russia and other things as well. Which may be why house intelligence chairman Adam Schiff yesterday said his committee now plans to investigate whether and how the president's business dealings affect his decision making whether foreign actors now have influence over him because of it his committee is just one of many now digging into the Trump International hotel in Washington payments to Michael Cohen and on the four side of the rest of red lines. The president's tax returns that's on top of federal and state investigations into the campaign TRAN transition inaugural committee, the Trump organization. The Trump foundation the civil suit over so tells especially in Washington, it's no wonder the president's a little touchy on this lately an economic miracle is taking place in the United States. And the only thing that can stop it. Our fluish wars politics or ridiculous partisan investigations. If there is going to be peace and legislation there cannot be war and investigation. It just doesn't work that way. Let's the president Tuesday nights saying essentially dropped the investigations or the economy gets it today he tweeted so now congressman Adam Schiff announces after having found zero Russian collusion that he's going to be looking at every aspect of my life. Both financial personal even though there's no reason to be doing. So never happened before unlimited presidential harassment also presidential harassment. It should never be allowed to happen. Again, late today the target of his ire congressman Schiff answered back in a podcast posted on the website, America, blah. President has had two years of a congress that would simply do no oversight whatsoever. And so the idea of meaningful oversight the idea of Congress's a Coequal branch clearly terrifies the president whether terrifies is the right word or enrages or merely urged Tate's it's on display on Twitter at press availabilities and cabinet meetings. The played out all day in a running battle over testimony tomorrow between the president's acting attorney general in the House Judiciary committee ended late today. But there's no sign the president's larger war on his many investigators is going to come to a close. Now where anytime soon as dig deeper now to the question of red lines congressional oversight Muller probe which a new CNN poll shows an overwhelming majority nearly ninety percents should be made public. Join us. Now is Senate Judiciary committee member Richard Blumenthal. Democrat of Connecticut, Senator do you believe the president is more concerned about congressional investigations that are going on now, and we'll be going on or the molar prob-. I think he seems to be equally concerned he certainly has called both. Which hung and he has denounced both, but both are absolutely necessary. And particularly the claim about harassment congress is simply doing its job. In fact, it has an institutional and constitutional role to play here and the president has lived in a very charmed cocoon. Because all three branches of government have been under Republican control. Is there a risk though in Democrats kind of overplaying their hand launching endless investigations that after a while just may seem to some people just partisan part of a partisan effort to get the president. There would be a risk in abuse or endless investigations. But that is hardly what's contemplated here. In fact, just today, the chairman of the judiciary committee declined at least for now to issue a subpoena to the acting attorney general Matt Whitaker because he's going to appear after giving him questions weeks in advance. So I think that the conduct your has been eminently reasonable, and what we want in transparency on the mullahs report also is eminently reasonable the American people paid for this investigation for the report, they deserve to know. What's in it, the legislation that I've introduced with Senator Grassley is by parson, I've been very encouraged. By the growing receptivity of my Republican colleagues perhaps because they are sensing what that CNN poll so dramatically reveals the American people want the report to be released, and as one of my former colleagues one of my predecessors, Senator Weicker wrote at the very beginning of the Watergate investigation, gut question for the committee in the country is how much truth do we want? I think it was the chairman of the House Ways, and means committee has made it clear he's going to be requesting the president's tax returns. That's obviously something the president does not want people to see does the prison to have any kind of recourse to prevent that. No doubt kill resist the request or even the subpoena for that kind of material, but he has no real defense or recourse under the law. Because clearly the chairman of the committee has the power to obtain it from the Internal Revenue Service despite his. His resisting. And in fact, he's the first president never to provide those tax returns in the past. And we've offered legislation to specifically require that. He make it. No. Is there one of these democratic investigations congressional delegations that you think the president should be most worried about or the most interest you. They are all of interest to the American people and in addition to the special counsel investigation. The congressional oversight investigations are really critically important to congress doing its job for him to resist would be as one constitutional scholar has said anti constitutional because the congress remember is a source for oversight. And until now, I'll be very blunt the real heroes of oversight have been the free press, which is uncovered so many facts and important insights into this administration and the independent judiciary. But congress now is going to be doing its job and that prospect, I think not only enrages and annoys the president. But also, maybe terrifies them a little bit. I was wondering in Jeff. Urban in chief legal analyst also former Nixon White House counsel. And I'm told Warren Harding advocate. Jeff. I know you've got some questions. I saw you wanting for Senator Bloomfield's. Well, I what about the issue of executive privilege because this is I mean, this seems like the fight about Whitaker is really coming down to that. How much do you think the the the concomitants the house of representatives in this case should be allowed to inquire into the conversations between the acting attorney general and the president of the United States well since the acting attorney general has talked about the timing of the conclusion of the motor investigation as special counsels ongoing inquiry. I think congress can ask how he knows about. What that timing? We'll be in effect. Whitaker's waved executive privilege on that point. But I think generally executive privilege has been overused. Excessively abused by witnesses. It has been falsely. Invoked by past witnesses before the intelligence committee of the Senate and Arkady the judiciary. They do. For example. The question did the president ever in discussed the Muller investigation with you as a acting attorney general or previously in his other roles Justice department, you think that question is fair game that is absolutely fair game. And the real question is what is he hiding? What is Whitaker hiding? What is he seeking to conceal? Why is he invoking this executive privilege, and what is the basis for the privileged? I think none John dean, there's so, you know, the molar pro may not have anything more may know may not have anything that shows the president did anything wrong. What do you make of these numerous democratic congressional investigations? Which one are you looking at most interested. I'm watching the Adam Schiff and his intelligence committee most intently right now, he seems to have set a very broad manned. Aid for himself as to what he's going to look into everything from the president's finances to whether he has some ties to Russia that haven't been disclosed cloudiness taxes what they meant show. I'd had that the only person that can really invoke executive privilege in any of these committees is the president himself, the witness cannot he could theoretically defer and say the president may want to invoke privilege on this and I'm gonna although we've seen a ton of witnesses over the last two years invoking kind of imaginary executive no authority whatsoever. It is pure baloney. They're engaging in the Republicans refused to press them on it. And let them get away with that. That's a very important point, particularly Jeff Sessions when he was attorney general he would say in testimony and other witnesses would say I just prefer not to answer that like what is that? I mean, if it, but but when you have a sympathetic chair and no. No pushback on that. They've gotten away with that. Now, we'll see how that changes Jeffey, Pam, right? That we pressed as the minority on these committees on the judiciary committee, for example, when Jeff Sessions or other witnesses have appeared we have pressed this issue to no avail because the chairman ineffective has gaveled us down. And it's extremely important because he's invoked it for example on financial dealings. He's drawn a red line. There is no reason for that red line other than his trying to hide. Meddling by the Russians which somehow benefits him or money laundering by Deutsche Bank, which they have already admitted not involving Trump. But they've admitted to doing it. And I think there are a much broader deeper questions. So I mean with John dean here center Blumenthal. Do you see parallels with Watergate, there are parallels that we could discuss for the next couple of hours in my view? But one of them involves that question that low Weicker ass how much truth does the country want because I think there are clearly facts and evidence that the special counsel has that the American people want. That's the reason that I've introduced this Bill with Senator Grassley, and it should have bipartisan support because the question for the country and for William bar. The attorney general is will he do the president's bidding or will he put the American people for the American people paid for that report? They deserve to see everything and John didn't do see this is a little bit upside down right now as opposed to Watergate where you didn't really get grand juries other than those looking at the Watergate burglars into the cover up until after the Senate had already started, a very detailed select committee investigation of Watergate, where many witnesses in virtually all of the key players would appear sooner or later when the special prosecutor came along he tried to block actually number witnesses, including yours truly didn't thought that would disrupt the grand jury, and and the pre press publicity that could affect trials ultimately, but it was not successful. And I think it educated the American people having the witnesses out explaining what was going on. And that's what hopefully it's going to happen. Now, Jeff, do you think people are aware of what a change this may mean for the president just? For the next two years. Will they're starting to become aware. I mean, just think about how many investigations have already started. You know, I think the public is most aware of things they can actually see on television and the internet and there have not been many major televised hearings. However, tomorrow morning, attorney general Whitaker will will testify in that, and that will be public Michael Kohn will testify although behind closed doors, at least initially, but I think any said tonight, he's going to do a public. That's Moni to also on February twenty eighth four before that figure. All right, good to know center Blumenthal. Thank you, John. Jeff Toobin is going to stick around because I want to get Jeff's taken a moment when we returned the bazo stories one of the richest men in the world accusing a man who has handled from the president's dirty laundry in the past accusing him of trying to blackmail. Jeff Bezos that's coming up and next Maggie Haberman and David Gergen on how the president may react as all these investigations hit closer to home. A book dotcom vacation includes a beautiful all inclusive beach resort with all meals, all drinks, including alcohol activities taxes. Tips all included are most popular destination for all inclusive resorts is Mexico's Caribbean coast, including Cancun Rivera, the people food history. And of course, the beaches make this a great reason to go, and here's one more right now. Save up to seventy percent off all inclusive. Mexico vacations on book dotcom. Imagine yourself relaxing all day on the beach shore by the pool with unlimited food and drinks all included sound good. Head over to book dot com slash podcast to save up to seventy percent off your next all inclusive vacation that's book dot com slash podcast. We're talking about President Trump lashing out in a variety of news, including of course, on Twitter at the growing number of investigations of him, his finances, his businesses and more. Now, I want to dig further into a state of mind what his next moves may be joining us now to CNN political analyst near times, White House, correspondent Haberman and veterans senior presidential adviser, David Gergen, so mega you just interviewed the president last week. Do you believe he's he's fuming about this congressional oversight writ large, or do you think there's specific areas he's concerned about I don't know that he's actually fuming. I think that he has I think there's a steady frustration with all of these investigations. And I think that it is everything mixed together. I think what you were trying seeing him try to do both in the state of the union and with the tweets this morning, and I think the tweets refu- me, but they he's trying to basically say all investigations are the same. He's not separating them out. Everything is a partisan effort against me Muller's is any of them others Republican who was appointed by Republican, you know, SDN why that's all partisan because that's sort of. Of the deep state. This is all part of a broader diligent de-legitimizing effort by the president. He is however frustrated anything that comes near his personal finances is something that worries him in alarms him, and we have heard this from people close to him for a long time. So it's not surprising that you're seeing the reaction. We are. Certainly understandable from the president's perspective, and this perspective of his supporters that if the Muller investigation is winding down if there is no, you know, evidence of collusion between President Trump and Russia as so many people, you know, earlier, and certainly Democrats were kind of expecting or looking for. I mean, it's easy to see why the president would would view this as suspicious that all of a sudden if the molar investigations winding down all of a sudden, the Democrats who are now in power are ramping up all these new investigations. Well, sure, but but these are the results of the fruits of the midterms and for Trump, they're very bitter fruits. But he knew this was coming whole world is known. This is coming that for two years. The congress has not exercised serious oversight of the kind. We normally expect because there's been in largely in the hands of his friends and his allies in the Republican party of control both chambers. And with that passage of with just as the vote able Donald Trump to go to the edges of presidential authority, this midterm election, vote gave the Democrats a chance to exercise a much more much more invasive form of scrutiny. I think the other point this should be made is this is hardly a precedent for a president to be upset and for administration to feel invaded. Just think about what the Obama administration did face you. Remember, they had been Ghazi is is it everybody forgotten Benghazi or the IRS or fast and furious or Celinda those. All became you know, anger Nate's throw into the midst of the Obama administration. This is this is politics is what happens in our politics today, and truly Maggie the president doesn't seem to see that way. Because he's saying this is all unprecedented that that this wasn't done to President Obama what kind of tools, which mechanisms Maggie of the presidency. Do you expect the president to try to deploy to at least slow down the house committees? I think a couple of things that just one thing to your point about how you know, his argument has been that Obama didn't face this as David said Obama faced a different variety. And it's true. Obama didn't face investigation into his his private business ties because he didn't have a big private company and was not coming in as an independently wealthy, man. So it's just a completely different circumstance with businesses in business entanglements that had been going on in Russia or involving Russia potentially during the campaign. So it's it's a little different in terms of what I think the White House might deploy. They have spent a lot of time beefing up the White House counsel's office. I think they are actually looking at try. To d prepared for what could come including having a lawyer serve as a spokesman. I think you're going to see some efforts to try to slow down and grind the gears on releasing tax returns. Which legally, you know, the the congress has a right to request. And I think that you were going to see efforts to throw sand in the gears by any means necessary to just run out the clock as long as possible. I don't know how long that will last. I don't know if there will be some kind of court effort to get them. But I don't think that I think that the the Trump administration has made pretty clear that they're going to be some things they comply with and some things they just won't. And I think obviously the tax returns are going to fall in the latter category. David, do you think the House Democrats are going to end up getting the president's tax returns? I don't know. I I don't with. This has never been challenged before we've never faced situation before. Because all the president previous presidents in modern times have released their tax returns. That's one reason. Barack Obama did not have an investigation of his tax return because he made them all public. And why I'm what's happened here on the on the president's tax return because he refused. Let them go. There is deep suspicion, especially among Democrats, and independents that said there's something in that that is he's holding back for for very good reason that it'd be damaging for him. And that's one of the reasons that people need to know and have a right to know. But I would assume they'll fight it out in the court. I think Maggie is absolutely right. That they will try to, you know, extend this out as far as they can get past the Muller report. And then try to close on everything. But that's been been why it's so important for the president to get man he can trust and William bar is attorney general he thinks he'll fight for mega at some point. If these investigations go on. Long enough heading into twenty twenty. I mean, the the there is a distinct possibility they end up energizing the president's Bates. It's question. I mean, I'm question. More to imagine him, you know, railing against the democrat controlled it's not hard to imagine railing against the democrat controlled house at campaign rallies. And the president was very explicit with people around him heading into the midterms and soon after that he he actually thought that they democratic controlled house would be politically good for him. He likes the idea of divided government. And to be clear he did not have a good relationship with Paul Ryan. So it is not a huge surprise. But this is of course, the reality of divided government. Is it gets? Yes. It gives you an opponent. I agree with you. I do think it will energize his base. The problem is the president's base has contracted a bit that might change when you have a binary and it's him versus another candidate. But his base alone is not enough to reelect him after two years. It's really essentially impossible for him to do some kind of a pivot to the middle in the way that we saw Bill Clinton do at a similar point in his first term. So I think that the cake is pretty baked for the president. He's. Doing what he has to do to get as many people out as he can one thing that I do think is a concern. I think less so on the congressional investigations and the southern district of New York investigation that's going on into the began with Michael Cohen. And that is now touching on the president's business. I think that that will go on for quite some time Muller. I think is a different category. Because I think it gets to a point where it could seem like it is getting a little too close into the reelection territory. I think that is something you will hear the president in the White House, say repeatedly Haberman. Appreciate it. David Gergen as well of next. We're gonna have more of our breaking news from the top of the hour. Jeff Bezos, head of Amazon, the owner of the Washington Post with an extraordinary online post tonight accusing the National Enquirer and his publisher seriously, extortion and blackmail after revealed a text messages revealing affair he was having where the tabloids alleged threats all to help the president, of course on that ahead. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Our friends at Xeni optical offer, a huge variety of high quality stylish frames and state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five. You can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at any dot com. With the latest trends in eyewear available and hundreds of frame styles and materials there isn't a better way to change it up for every season. Plus is any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. That's Z E N N, I dot com slash CNN. More. Now, our breaking news the top the are jet. Bays owes the founder of Amazon owner of the Washington Post is accusing the National Enquirer and his publisher of extortion and blackmail. He's making his case online in a stunning and very personal post on medium titled. No, thank you, Mr. pecker. Mr. pecker, David pecker is a one time confidante of President Trump's as we mentioned earlier he helped candidate Trump hush-up his alleged affair with play with a playboy model. Who knows what else and keep in mind pecker supposed to be cooperating with federal prosecutors investigating the so-called catch and kill payments that the Enquirer made the stunning claims tonight by Basotho raising questions about that expected cooperation or the details and how he got to this point. Now last month, the national choir made bases affair with a a woman a front page story that came hours after Biswas posted a statement on Twitter from he and his wife of twenty five years announcing their plans to divorce after the tabloid story bays. Those launched his own investigation to find out who leaked photos of him with his girlfriend, Lauren Sanchez, a former TV news anchor and tonight. He's going after the inquirer and his parent company. AM I because he says they resorted to blackmail to stop his own investigation. Bays. Those rights online, quote, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse or at least. That's what the top people the National Enquirer thought, I'm glad they thought that because it embolden them to put it all in writing rather than capitulate to extortion and blackmail of decided to publish exactly what they sent me despite the personal costs and embarrassment they threaten. So what are the folks of the Enquirer allegedly offer him won't bays share several emails. One of them reportedly from AM is chief content officer to the attorney for businesses investigator. Here's the key part, quote with the Washington Post poised to publish unsubstantiated. Rumors the national enquirers initial port. I wanted to describe to you the photos of change during our news gathering in addition to the below the belt selfie otherwise cloak wheel cloak, excuse me, colloquially known as a. I don't know if I should say that as a blink pick the Enquirer obtained a further nine images and the mail goes on to share details of those allegedly racy photos. I guess you play you'd say including some cell fees. We'll even at that. They're they have the claim of blackmail, and extortion is based on that. Now, joining me for more and all this CNN, senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter? Also back with this Jeffrey Toobin joining us chief political analyst, Gloria borger, Jeff I mean basis is calling this blackmail, and extortion, they essentially sent him a letter or sent his his investigators attorney a letter saying, we would these are the photos, we have clearly, you know, where it's going to be embarrassing. We won't publish them. If you make a statement saying that there's nothing to do between the Enquirer and Saudi Arabia, and you stop this investigation. Right. It is it's it's an it's an unusual spin on a familiar part of what the National Enquirer does. Usually. It's about. What's in the National Enquirer here? It's about what's in the Washington Post is that there was a Washington Post investigation going on and the Enquirer the the letter says you write the following in the Washington Post or the implicit threat is we publish these these letters essentially tell these photographs relating to the Washington Post what they should say which bazo says would have been false anyway because he feels apparently that. There. There was political motivation for what the what the inquirer was doing. Your question is is it blackmail is it a crime is it extortion? My answer is I don't know. I think it is worthy of investigation. It's an unusual situation. Because even though it does have a threat involved. It is part of the news gathering process broadly, defined even though it's deeply sleazy, and I could see prosecutors hesitating to sort of get in the middle of this. It's disgraceful journalism. It's disgraceful behavior. Whether it's an actual crime. I am frankly, not prepared to say at this point. What what what are the what is the difference between what they're doing? And what you would think of as extortion black now. Well, they're saying, you publish, you publish something in your paper. I mean, it's like kidnap percent, you publish this or I'm going to release these right? But they they would argue is we're just trying to get the Washington. Oast to to report accurately, and we're using the leverage we have now, you know. It's certainly a deeply shabby way to do that. But that's a little differently from me saying to you give me a million dollars or I'll kill you. That's sort of the classic extortion scenario, the print this or we print these photographs. I just don't know it might be. But I'm not prepared to say, you know, off the top of my head that this is definitely a crime, Gloria, I mean basis, of course, owns the Washington Post. He doesn't control editorial direction the threat appeared to be tied to the papers covers specifically about Saudi Arabia and the National Enquirer. I mean, Jeff Bezos dropped a bunch of breadcrumbs here. And when you read it and reread, it becomes pretty clear number one. He points out, you know, Packers past cooperation with Donald Trump. But number two, he talks about AM. I and Saudi Arabia and then number three he completes them both at. At one point he says, and he points out in a piece from the New York Times he says after Mr. Trump became president. He rewarded Mr. peppers loyalty with the White House dinner to which the media executive brought a guest with important ties to the royals in Saudi Arabia at the time, Mr. pecker was pursuing business there while also hunting for. Financially acquisitions, so he was looking for money, and you know, the post has been relentless in its coverage of kashogi. And so the questions that are out there. And he, you know, he leaves these crumbs the questions that are out there are, you know, are peppers ties to the White House will lated to the Saudis, right? And did the White House help pecker in any way with the Saudis, and he keeps dropping this. You know, dropping this out there just kind of letting it hang out there, and you have to raise these questions Brian CNN's reach out to him. I David Packard have have you heard anything I've been calling and frankly, the calls are going straight to voicemail Henderson, am I National Enquirer pecker, his people have not responded in any way to bazo Zala Gatien's yet. But I think many people who've been following this entire story following this. Scandal about Basil's and the alleged affair he had their cheering for us. Right now. They're saying thank you for standing up to a possible blackmail attempt. Thank you for publishing the emails. So people can see how this sometimes works. Because after all this another first time, am I the National Enquirer have been accused of blackmail. But let's even came up in the early months, the Trump administration when Joe Scarborough Mika Brzezinski at MSNBC so that there was an attempt to use the inquirer to punish them. Basically. The suggestion was that they were supposed to call Trump and apologize for being tough on him and go easy on him on TV or else the Enquirer published nasty things about their personal lives. So there's a history of this here, and whether these details add up to a crime or not there's clearly an unethical action happening and speaking of crimes and legality. We should just keep in mind. AM I- pecker Dylan Howard. They have an immunity deal related. Michael Cohen that immunity deal would be off. If there are other crimes that could be prosecuted. We're Jeff that may be why they haven't commented yet. We'll let me ask you, Jeff. The I in that deal. They basically copped to statement of facts about Karen McDougal, and how that all played out is that is their cooperation only limited to the Karen McDougal case. And Michael Cohen. No, not at all. They would not when you cooperate with the southern district of New York. They have a blanket rule that you cooperate about everything you answer any question. They have now they admit to their involvement in the Karen McDougal story, which remember Michael Cohen plowed plead guilty to a crime in connection with he he said, I was helping an unlawful campaign contribution. As a result of that agreement that Brian referred to AM, I David pecker dealing Howard would not be prosecuted. But the condition of that agreement is always you don't commit any other crimes or the deal is off. So what they have to be concerned about. Is the the prosecutor saying we'll use now committed blackmail us now committed extortion, we're gonna tear up that agreement and prosecute you the same way we prosecuted Michael cone for an illegal campaign contribution. Yeah. I don't know they're going to do that. But it's possible jarring. Let me let me ask you this. Which is if there is a criminal investigation wouldn't everything about Trump his relationship to AM I and the Saudis wouldn't that become discoverable will will shore? I mean, I mean, it would all it would all be potentially relevant assuming the charges are in unlawful campaign contribution. Because the question is why would they make an unlawful campaign contribution? What what what it Trump have have to offer them? You know, I it's the relationship between the the irony here is you know, what I I wrote a profile of pecker in the New Yorker about two years ago. And he couldn't have been more open about the Karen McDougal situation. He said, yeah, we we paid her because we wanted to support President Trump. She was he's a friend of the magazine. Now, he has been less open in recent months because I think he now realizes the potential for a in an unlawful campaign contribution situation now with this. He really could be going after Jeff Bezos. And this, you know, allegations is fair as a favor to don't Trump because the Washington Post reporting, Jeff, thank you, Brian Stelter. Thanks for borders. Well, coming up, we'll the president of a release his tax returns. The question surely been asked for years and House Democrats are making moves that could finally lead to a showdown the latest on that next. Remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN. As we mentioned, the beginning of the program, one of the many aspects of the president's life and business that's under scrutiny is his refusal to release his tax returns going against decades of president precedent today. House. Democrats started the first hearings that could lead to a showdown over the president's taxes. Some of the witnesses at that hearing include attacks in ethics experts. They verts congress demand them the main question being whether the president and his business or benefiting from public office. Joining me now is a prize winning investigative reporter and tax and accounting columnists. David Johnson, author of the making of Donald Trump. Thanks so much for being with us. David you've investigated you've written extensively about President Trump and his business dealings. Why do you think he's fighting so hard to keep his returns private? Oh because they're going to show. The Donald is a tax cheat in one thousand nine hundred eighty four Donald had two trials they were civil trials, but they were tax fraud trials. He lost them both his own witness Jackman, Nick who was his longtime tax lawyer and accountant testified under oath, that's my signature on the tax return. But I didn't prepare that tax return. That's pretty good evidence of fraud. And they will also show if they dig behind the tax returns into what's called tax information. How much money has flowed to Donald from Russians from Saudi Arabia from elsewhere? That may be influencing his judgements as president of the United States. And whether he is a loyal American or not it's interesting because obviously, we know now base because of a lot of organizations reporting about the attempt to build a Trump Tower in Moscow, and the president's interest in that all along the president has kids have said there were there was no business with Russia. I, you know, I think at one point I think it was done junior said or maybe urge from said, you know, we get a lot of money from Russians. I think they were talking about Russians who are buying apartments or buying. I think there was a fancy property in Florida that one Russian oligarch bought from from Trump. We don't really know though. I mean there there's a lot of arms to his business that the public just doesn't really know anything about exactly right and Donald standard business deal has no money in it. Donald number one dollar invested in Atlantic City. It was all other people's money and the Russian mansion deal is particularly important Donald was desperately need for cash by his own filings and a court case, and he got more than double the value of a house from one of the Russian oligarchs and the cover story that was taken up by a lot of gullible reporters. Anderson was well the man was trying to hide money from his wife. He was divorcing want to hide money from your spouse. You don't kill pay two or three times the value of a property you might as well put a match. To it. You called for a thorough professional congressional investigation. Why would a congressional investigation be any different than any scrutiny? He's been under by the state of New York. Well, the state of New York certainly has the capacity, and I was the one who got governor Cuomo to move on this issue of getting a criminal investigation going by the state, the state attorney general only has civil authority unless the governor gives criminal thority, but we need to have an independent look at Donald's finances. The Internal Revenue Service has been stripped down to nothing in fact today, I have a family member who was told to wait twelve weeks to get their questions answered about their simple short tax return. We need to have a congressional investigators who worked for the joint committee on taxation, which has done fabulous work for eighty years. And they will know how to look at these returns. And to find out what needs to be put in the public record. I mean, also the there we know prosecutors are according to latest reporting wanting to talk to Trump organization executives, well and Alan Weisselberg who has been the longtime CFO of the Trump organization is at least. Partially cooperating witness Michael Cohen has given them information and Donald has a long history of cheating lying under oath, presenting false documents, not just in the tax case, but many others. There's a wonderful story of how the city of New York went after him when he tried to cheat the city out of about two and a half million dollars a year, and the auditors wouldn't give up and had just one crazy story after another trying to hide the books and records. David johnson. I appreciate you coming in. And thank you so much. Thank you wanna check it with, Christy. What he's working on for Cuomo primetime. Chris. All right. This news about Paul Manafort and his meeting with a Russian operative being at the heart. Those are the words of the special counsel. Why what was he lying about? Why would he be lying? What does it mean to the overall probe? We have congressman Matt gates on tonight from Florida. He's a staunch defender of the president. And he also got caught up in a really ugly scene at that House Judiciary meeting about guns the other day with one of the parents from the parkland massacre. So we're going to talk to. Him about those things. Very controversial. We're also going to take on Anderson. What we see coming next. And why the president has good reason for word. All right. Chris seven seven minutes or mail out to look for thanks very much. We'll see in a few minutes coming up the president asked for feedback on his state of the union address wants to know was it historic. Great or just good the ridiculous. Isn't it? The right sheets can take your sleep and your style to the next level with Boll and branch. The upgrade has never been more Ford -able every set is crafted from one hundred percent organic cotton. They get softer and softer over time. That's why they have thousands of five star reviews and even three US presidents have Boll and branch sheets. Try them for thirty nights. And if you don't love them, send them back for a full refund. Go to bollandbranch dot com today for fifty dollars off your first set of sheets, plus free shipping with promo code CNN to spelled B O L L, andbranch dot com. That's Boll and branch dot com. Promo code CNN too. Time now for the ridiculous. And I think we can all agree that one trait of an effective and self-aware leader is on his feedback. So what a great sign it was that the Trump campaign sent an Email to their supporters after the state of the union speech asking for just that. No, sure, the Email starts off insulting cry, and Chuck and Democrats labels the president's speech historic twice. But then it asks the president's followers to take the quote officials state of the union approval poll, and it's absolutely official because as you can see right there. It says official eat your heart out Gallup. So from this highly official undeniably scientific poll sent by team Trump to Trump supporters. I now present the first question, quote, how would you rate President Trump state of the union address historic? Great good or other historic. Great good seems like kind of missed opportunity for all of the above option. But look, I'm pollster, gee, I wonder what's going to happen to this data from the super scientific survey. Now, it's true that some people did things stay the union was historic. Great. Or good. In fact, to CNN poll conducted by SRS found that seventy six percent of yours had either very positive or somewhat positive reaction. Of course. There are also some people who thought it was other. That's not the point the point is what's the purpose of gathering. This kind of information in this way, who would want the results of a skewed survey since the president supporters with a loaded question where the answer choices or Olsen and hymns for user are awesome Gwyn sedan the president tweeted this short time ago. So nice. Well, my state of the union speech was received. Thank you to all. Now the world our chances for Trump supporters to make their feelings known on the survey. Here are a few other questions, quote, deeply, President Trump to liberty visionary speech of always chooses American greatness. And do you believe Democrats only say they don't wanna Walter harass? Our great president see these are perfect examples wide Severi important how poll questions are worded. And as we know killing Conway's very concerned about this type of thing. Under the new poll out showing that seventy one percent of the poll. Do you have the whole? I just wanted to see the question. The question was is the wall worth the government shutdown? So why would that be the question? Why? With that. We invite all of you to take the official ridiculous approval. Poll was the president survey embarrassing utterly pointless, shameless exercise in nurses, or other. And that all of the above is what we call it very official and a very good question on the ridiculous. And that's it for us. Not news continues one and handed over Chris Cuomo Cuomo primetime, Chris the Golden State killer, the east coast and the original night stalker, all means for the one suspect responsible for thirteen murders over fifty rapes and hundreds of burglaries. I would certainly hope that if there are other crimes attributed to him that we could figure those out in some way, he terrorized neighborhoods up and down the state of California from Sacramento to Irvine nine hundred seventy six to nine hundred eighty six also offering rewards of up to fifty thousand dollars for information leading to the identification arrest and conviction of the east area rape. This Golden State killer and on April twenty fifth two thousand eighteen law enforcement finally identified and arrested the mandate believe is the Golden State killer Joseph James de ngelo. It is fitting that today is national DNA day. We found the needle in the haystack. And it was right here in Sacramento. The decades long man hunt and did not far from where it started. The quiet. Citrus heights neighborhood, just northeast of Sacramento the same small city where four of the east area rapist attacks occurred yesterday afternoon in a perfectly executed arrest. My detectives arrested Joseph Di Angelo. How lon- forcement finally idea him what led to this arrest? How will this extraordinary case be prosecuted, and what are the survivors and family members of some of the victims saying about the capture and arrest of Joseph James Dangelo accused of being one of the most prolific serial killers in California history part a relief because I don't know this person I've never seen this person. But terrify to see this person did that to me, I'm Biagio Messina. And I'm joke Finn soon. We are the producers behind HSEN television documentary series unmasking killer. Join us as we explored the identification capture and arrest of Joseph James Dangelo, the alleged Golden State killer in a special ten part podcast series unmasking killer, all new episodes premiering Tuesday. February twelfth subscribed today at apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Listen to podcasts. File number d are two nine five seven seven one the unsolved murder of Elizabeth short. The blackout. You may have heard of the black Dahlia it was the name given to Elizabeth short. A woman who is savagely killed in Los Angeles in nineteen forty seven her body was cut in half and pose to horrifying effect. Housing dollars will be paid for information leading to the arrest and conviction of killer. The crime scene photos are out there, but a little warning, you can never unsee them. It's part of the reason that more than seventy years later, it's still the most famous unsolved murder in American history. Black Dahlia stories have been told for decades. My sister. And I have heard them since we were little because we were told that the killer was part of our family. You think you've committed the perfect? Someone listening to this program is going to bring you to Justice. Her body was his canvas and his scalpel was his paintbrush. That's our ankle. And for twenty years. He's been uncovering evidence luring him closer to the devastating truth. It was just like one of these kind of flash moments. This is it this is why he did it. It was the first time. I started thinking like my father. But this isn't just a black Dahlia story, this is the story of a family. Our family and it's terrible past. When I found my birth. Mom. She told me her father, which would be my grandfather had an I q higher than Einstein. And that he had been investigated in the black Dahlia murder so about by about his time. I'm ready to drop dead, the more and more. I learned about growing up. I just thought well, I'm from a really dark family. This got a lot of fucked up things that I don't even know about their cycle pins, and they're sociopaths, and I tried to figure out which one my mother was it turns out that murder is just one of the dark hotel secrets open a couple of closets. Go back a generation or two, and you're gonna find some pretty shocking things for the first time ever all of us are ready to tell our story. The real story of the hotel family rolled crazy. You know? But everybody is my name is Yvette. And I'm Russia, and we're proud to bring you the new podcast documentary series root of evil. The true story of the hotel family and the black Dahlia up a production of c thirteen originals a division of cadence. Thirteen in partnership with TNT coming February thirteenth. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.
AP One Minute Headlines Mar 26 2019 07:00 (EDT)
"I'm Rita Foley with an AP news minute. Democrats are demanding to see the full Mullah report by next Tuesday. Adam Schiff is among the house committee chairman asking the Justice department handed over as the president or anyone around him compromise in some way that work has to go on. So Democrats are vowing to continue their own investigations of the president. The mullahs report did not find the Trump campaign colluded with Russia to influence the election. According to the attorney general, but it also reached no conclusion on whether Mr. Trump obstructed the federal investigation. President Trump says he's been abused by along unnecessary investigation. Celebrity lawyer, Michael avenues out on bail after being charged with extortion and Bank and wire fraud among other offenses, he says he's always fought the powerful, and he plans to keep that up. I will never stop fighting that good fight. He did not enter a plea in court last night in New York. I'm Rita fall lay.
A safe 3rd country:Trump V Reality
"What does Donald Trump mean by a safe third country. I'm Bill Newman and this is the civil liberties minute migrants from Honduras and El Salvador who survived the perilous perilous land journey to the United States is southern border have gone through Guatemala trump insists that those migrants must be denied the right even to seek asylum in the United States unless they've filed for asylum I in Guatemala the problem to be returned to a third country not the country. The person came from not the country tree. They're seeking to migrate to the United States. There needs to be a quote safe third country and quote agreement between the United States and that country and and the United States in Guatemala. Don't have such agreement trump says will yes he does but the highest court in Guatemala says no he doesn't because the Guatemalan Congress has unapproved such an agreement nor have virtually any other countries for that matter and Guatemala isn't remotely capable of even considering these applications and critically Kley Guatemala is not remotely safe for these migrants because the reach of the gangs and the violence they are fleeing is long indeed. The United States State Department says is that violent crimes such as murder and armed robbery extortion other violent crimes and gang violence is rampant in Guatemala trump has designated Guatemala aw as a safe third country. It's not the civil liberties minute is made possible by the A._C._l._U. because freedom can protect itself.
CAFE Insider: Bezos, AMI, and TMI
"Stay tuned listeners as many of you know, we recently launched cafe insider, it's a subscription service. That includes the cafe inside podcast co hosted by an milligram on me each week. We break down the news and make sense of what's happening. We are living through historic times and many people understandably feel disoriented by the whirlwind of headlines. Our goal is to help you filter the noise and get to the core of the issues at the intersection of law and politics from time to time we make portions of our conversations in the cafe insider podcast available free to listeners today. We're bringing you a segment from our most recent episode an-and, I broke down Jeff Bezos claim that the National Enquirer and its parent company. Am I engage in blackmail, and extortion, we also discuss acting AG Matt Whitaker's testimony, then you house Intel committee investigation and more if you'd like to hear the full episode become a member by going to cafe dot com slash insider members get access to the insider podcast bonus clips from stay tuned interviews weekly newsletter and more for many of. You who have chosen to join the inside or community. Thank you for supporting our work, full episodes of stay tuned remained free every Thursday and the subscription allows us to keep doing what we're doing. And now here's a portion of our conversation on cafe insider. From cafe welcome to cafe insider. I'm pre- Berar, Malcolm. I am warning. I'm good. How are you doing you watch the Grammy's dead? I did. Did you watch them? I didn't watch all of it. I have to say I did. And I. I think they should rename it the Alicia key show. Yeah. She's awesome. Someone said she should be hosting everything. Time. And I agree. Also. So the Oscar she should she should basically every show other than other than the caffeine. Cider right. Well, we guessed that'd be that'd be pretty cool. We can make the section of the podcast about, you know, your old win because I will say watching the Grammys I had a couple moments where I was like who's a completely. Well, I had my kids around and they school man's my kid is not old enough yet. But I need I need a little I need either. Older kids. Are you didn't know about more radio? We didn't know about her. I did not there were a few. I was like she's helped me out. All right. We're embarrassing yourselves. So let's get to some things that we know about we have this is a week where we have a lot to talk about. I guess we should start with Jeff Bezos. Yes, am I. I guess to recap Jeff Bezos suddenly posted something on the website medium, where he took the bull by the horns, so to speak and revealed in his words that he was the victim of an extortion attempt from AM, I that's the company headed by David pecker that the National Enquirer that had already published intimate texts between him and someone with whom he was having an affair. And now that looked like they were according to Jeff Bezos. According to some of the texts and the back and forth. Emails that were published threatening him with publishing more pictures, including pictures of his what what is am. I heard another partner other parts, I'm not gonna use it. I never thought we'd be talking about this publicly genitalia. Yes. I think that's what they're called. If he didn't put out a statement saying among other things that Jeff Bezos investigation of how the texts became came into the possession of am. I. He would have to say that. There was no political motivation behind them there. Something very important, and he'd been just to make sure we're clear he'd been he and the investigator. He was using had been out saying that they thought that the original release of those text messages, and in January inquirer publication that that was politically motivated, right? And as we know David pecker is close to the president of the United States and Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, which is an important newspaper in America that has been critical of the president and the president has attacked Jeff Bezos. So there's there's a lot of you know, back and forth in attacks this way, and that way, so it's not crazy to to worry in wonder whether or not there's some political motivation. But so that that was the state of play last week. So one question that is on the table. I guess we can talk about giving our legal backgrounds is is was that extortion. I mean, Jeff as says flatly, it was extortion blackmail, and the question is was it extortion before we even get there? Just to step back for one second. It is a crazy thing that Jeff Bezos is sending around photos of himself harsh. I just want to pause for because I feel like I've done a huge amount of internet safety. I spent a lot of times when a lot of time when I was a g and even still telling young people don't take a picture of anything that you don't want to see on the front page of the paper. They just don't do. It. Don't do it like just when in doubt, and you know, I've seen cases of sex store. Shen revenge porn. This is a very serious matter. And we tell kids don't do it. We tell young people don't do it. And then you have the richest guy in the world runs. One of the top companies in in the United States of America taking in sending pictures back and forth. So I just want to start by saying is a public service announcement. And so yeah, momentary PSA. It's approach hip. Please. Don't do this. Don't do it. Don't don't do that. Don't take those pictures and send them around now onto the crime. Okay. So so so what what's your view? And then we'll look at the defenses in talk about what am is lawyers are saying David Packers lawyers. You're saying. Open and shut extortion case. I don't think open and shot. I think we should talk about this little it's a little bit of a strange construction. So if you and I were thinking about extortion. The typical extortion would be I'm going to publish these nude pictures of you unless you give me a million dollars. Right. Jeff Bezos or billion dollars that would clearly be extort. That's the typical case, you know, the more typical cases outside of this context is near the mob guy goes to the to the restaurant owner and says, we're gonna break your windows, unless every week you give us a thousand dollars, right? Yep. So there's that's more typical in the sense that there's a threat of violence. Yes. And physical destruction of property in exchange for value in. There's no debate about a thousand dollars being something of value. Right. And so here the question is conversations about reputation reputational harm. Can that be a thing of value is one of the questions? I would argue very strongly. Yes. That the law allows for it doesn't even have to be you know, you just talked about property. It could be something that's tangible or intangible property. And they're plenty of instances in law where we talk about people's reputations issue. I look at it. So we just read the statute quickly since since people may be wondering there's there's a statute on extortions in the federal code eighteen USC eight seventy five which makes it very clear that whoever with intent to extort from any person etcetera etcetera any money or thing avowedly, which will talk about more transmits an interstate or foreign commerce any communication at cetera et cetera any threat to injure the property or reputation of the addressee she'll be fined in this title and imprisoned etcetera. So on the one hand threat to reputation counts under federal law. One defense on this issue of reputation that I heard Elkin Abramowitz who represents David pecker on television over the weekend in Elkin Bromwich. I know friendly with him. He's an alum of the southern district of New York. Very good lawyer, very accomplished lawyer embrace criminals. White-collar let's be clear. He's not a, you know, he's not a bankruptcy lawyer real estate lawyer. He's a Waco criminal defense lawyer. Correct. And he wanted. His arguments was well, the story was already out. It was already known that Jeff Bezos had engaged in extra in an extra affair and intimate Texas already been published, but there's a real difference with photographs and releasing partially naked photos of someone that you've. You don't have a by going forward. Right. There's there's this was going to be another tranche of stuff. And in fact, you know, almost definitional early. It was going to have a more serious effect. Because otherwise, you would think that the the National Enquirer wouldn't be threatening. Yeah. The whole point is if you don't do X, we're going to do why. And why is going to be really harmful to you? Right. So it doesn't really fly not only really harmful to Jeff Bezos. But also probably really profitable for the National Enquirer. So if we think about this like if they publish those picks pictures, they would have obviously would have been credibly embarrassing and harmful to Jeff Bezos, reputation. But also, they basically giving up a financial opportunity because they would have put it front page of, you know, even if they didn't show the full picture people would have bought the paper probably to see that. And so their motivation is something I'm incredibly curious about because they are desperate. You know? They're basically making a deal, we've got all these photos. We're not gonna put out in. Exchange for you to say that our initial story wasn't politically motivated, which basically says to me that it was right? Right. And and that goes to the other side of the equation. So on the one hand the question is was it a threat to reputation. It seems like it was and on the other hand. What is the thing that they were trying to get what is the thing. You know? So they weren't saying give me thousand dollars give me a million dollars. They were asking for a statement to be put out. And so is that a thing of value and seems to me the based on what you just said a second ago along with some other circumstances. The fact that they see the fact that they were willing to forego whatever profit they would have made by selling papers, if they publish these photographs and other emails in exchange for a statement means that they had calculated themselves that the statement itself had was incredibly valid and the fact that they were fighting so hard to prevent this insinuation of political motivation on their own part. I think speaks for itself. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting also as as you're talking about this sort of two sides of this. On the one side. It's the threat to release the pictures which the outcome which have value someone would pay for those probably right pay for access to those either by buying the National Enquirer something else, but also have a reputational harm to bazo himself. So there's reputation associated with that. But then there's reputation on the other side. It's kind of a fascinating case, which is all about AM. I saying look you're out there saying this the stuff about us. We want you to say, it's not true when you know, Basil's writes in his medium post, I would have had to falsely said that I didn't believe that it was politically motivated, and it's pretty clear from bazo says the way he writes it and the references and the lead investigators publicly said they think that the original actions were politically motivated, I mean Elkin Abramowicz says on behalf of David pecker. He doesn't represent name. I I believe it represents only David Becker says, no, it's not a thing of Allieu because all they were seeking was the truth. But putting aside what the truth is or is not I think at this point. We don't fully know, but we can discuss in second. They were asking for specific statement of exoneration on a particular point to be made. They're not they weren't been said publicly. Right. They're they're not just would have shown right, right? One of the things that went through my head. When I first heard this was AM, I David pecker. They are under a nun non-prosecution agreement as part of the Michael Cohen case. And you know, one of the things we should we should just step back and talk about AM is a political organization they did cooperate and they provide information, but remember that they were the conduit for one of the payments to one of Trump's one of the women who had said, I had an affair with Donald Trump. And so the money in order to silence the woman one at least one instance went through a my so they did act politically on at least one occasion where they were supporting a presidential candidate. Yeah. Absolutely. That's terrific point. And also shows that unlike other companies they're in a particularly sensitive new critical posture and that is on September twentieth. Two thousand eighteen AM. I through council signed as you said non-prosecution agreement with these others of New York, and you know, it's publicly. Now, they got a huge like can you talk through? So so non prosecution agreement is a gift to an individual or to a corporation in their various reasons, you might enter into one. And it's when there is the possibility of prosecuting someone in this case campaign finance violation and the attorney's office decides for one reason or a multitude of reasons to give them a little bit of a pass in in that could be because the crime wasn't so significant enough for them to, you know, extract blood. It could be that the cooperation is more important. They get to keep the company in a tight leash. Just give you a sense of of how you know under the barrels under the barrel over the barrel where where in connection with the barrel in the barrel. Not in the over there over the barrel. I think okay. So they're they're over over the I'm I'm an immigrant slurring. Among other things non-prosecution agreement says that am I is not permitted to commit any other crime for three years for three years, and if any point during that period, they commit some crime, and it doesn't have to be a federal crime could be any kind of crock if you could be attacks crime, it could be obstruction it could be extortion, extortion, and it could be a violation of state law or federal law. They can rip up this agreement and go ahead and prosecute them for the crimes for which they for bore before. And by the way, the statue of limitations during the period of this agreement is told meaning it's it's stopped. So that they can bring those those charges later on top of that AM, I has requirement that it shall cooperate fully with this office and any other law enforcement agency designated by this office. In addition AM I shall provide to this office upon request any document record or other tangible evidence relating to matters about which this office for any designated law enforcement agency, inquires of it. So so now so to think about how incredibly stupid it is. Yep. Even if it's the case that there's an argument that it's not slam dunk open and shut extortion. When you're thinking about engaging in this back and forth with the richest man in the world, who obviously has you know, resources and access to counsel himself and investigators, and you, and you know, that you're under the yoke of a non-prosecution agreement. I think you want to avoid the risk of it looking like extortion. So I I don't know. No, they they played a hammer. They just assume probably because they do this frequently and get away with it and intimidate people. They played a hand where they just didn't think that Basil's was going to do what he did. Which is basically say, look, I'm gonna tell you. I'm gonna release to the world. I'm going to get ahead of it until everybody what's out there and tell them that. I think you're trying to extort me. And so they they played a pretty risky game. AM I in my view, generally speaking, because they're you know, they're they're getting to fight with the richest man in the world. And there's the example of Gawker the people have been talking about in connection with with the the tell Cogan made and know Gawker no longer exists in some people have been predicting I'm not making this prediction in the last week that AM is dead is a Walking Dead company, but the other audience intentional or not for Jeff betas post on medium was southern district of New York and their reports. And look if I were the attorney right now, I'd be having people in my office, saying, the what do you think about the law here, we think about the facts here, do you think was extortion or not, and then they have to make a decision about whether they rip up the agreement. Now, there are some times. When you see you have a cooperating witness or cooperating company, and they're valuable enough that you actually don't want to rip it up because there's little providing information about other things, but at a minimum here, they have to be considering very carefully whether they cancel the agreement and there's three things happening. So I is whether they would cancel the non-prosecution agreement which means that they could be prosecuted for their conduct in the catch and kill work with Michael Cohen and Trump that that Michael Cohen has already pleaded guilty to the second is whether or not the federal crime of extortion was committed which I think is pretty possible. And I would make an argument that you could make a case you can make a case for this. Again, you know there needs to be more investigation but on its face. I I would be comfortable saying, I think this would be something. I would probably say let's go to the grand jury on again. There's a lot more information you need to get. But on its face. I'm comfortable saying, you know, yes, there are things value, and that there's an attempt to basically arm someone the last piece is that there's also a possible state law claim of. Store Shen here that could be brought now I don't know if they'll be a state investigation, but for that non-prosecution agreement it does go away if there's either a state or federal prosecution required to cooperate with state authorities. Also, here's the other thing about what you just said, which is important that unlike in the normal scenario where you're investigating something being extortion or not so, you know, some rich person puts out a post and says I've been extorted the southern district of New York like any other prosecutor's office would have to send agents asked for voluntary. Cooperation issue subpoenas do all sorts of things and they could be resisted, and they could be fought in court. These guys are already under no obligation to provide every Email every text every draft. They have no excuse not to provide anything that the us attorney's office wants. So this investigation into whether or not it's extortion can happen more rapidly and can happen more thoroughly. Because as I said, they're already under the Ohka this non-prosecution women, and then up four thing beyond the three already mentioned is now you've awakened investigators to this idea of are there. Other stores. I agree mentions that and says a lot of people told us they had to pay because they didn't have a choice. They had to sort of make a deal with am I because they didn't have a choice for now. The scope of the agreement is at aim. I was not supposed to commit any crimes subsequent to the signing of the agreement which here is September. Twentieth. Two thousand eighteen and also an obviously everything that happened with Jeff Bezos is in the recent time period. So as an initial matter I would not be shocked if the prosecutors and SDN y said, not only do we want all the documents relating to this alleged extortion. We want everything when everything's relating to any possible, extortion or any possible blackmail any since this date, and then maybe start going before that too. And so if more they have text messages or photos that they did not publish it. It's one of the most self destructive business decisions. It seems was made. And then you have to ask the question. Why if you assume people at least, you know, Jeff bazars was was acting in a way presumably for personal reasons and that happens, but this was a business that cared. So. Much about getting a declaration. That political motivations were not at play in publishing these photos and emails that this is what they were prepared to risk makes you wonder I mean, there are a couple of other things for salt dating even they made five months under the non-prosecution agreement. They didn't even make six months. I mean that like if you're sitting in the US attorney's office, you have to be sitting there basically being like these people like what are you possibly thinking? And it's blatant and it's on spray stupid. And when people do when when people do that you then start to think to yourself, they do it all the time. They do it all the time. And what else are they doing? Yeah. Of course, whether or not am I has committed a crime women as we understood. It was not that you could only rip it up after your prosecuted for a crime and convicted of a crime, it's in the estimate of the us attorney's office, and obviously it has to be a good, faith estimation. So if there's flimsy evidence, I suppose AM I could go to court and say, we didn't commit the crime. You have some sort of mini hearing on the issue of whether or not the contract had to be enforced, but if the US attorney's office decides essentially in its descr. Russian and in good faith that there's enough evidence of crime separate apart from whether or not they charge that crime the agreement can be ripped up unless there's talk for saying about how an investigation into the extortion. Here would go, which is that, you know, I think you would open up a grand jury investigation you'd bring in you, obviously have access to a lot of emails. Probably you could get access to the full investigation. That was done by Jeff Bezos investigator. You would you would immediately subpoenaed and asked for for that information, you'd also subpoena AM I or I mean, hopefully, they cooperate. But you get all the emails on all the back and forth as you said not just on this. But an other matters and so on its face at appears to be criminal. But what you would do is go further to make sure that you know, bazo has has he's given one version his version of events. It seems to me very credible based on what we've seen. But as an investigation, you would wanna go out and get everything you possibly could find out who they talk to start interviewing witnesses bringing people into the grand jury and just be really thorough about. That. So I hesitate before I say, yes, I would charge a crime because I want to know sort of the three sixty of something that's happened. You're absolutely the odd thing about this is that I think as of yesterday Sunday, we're according to on Monday morning. Jeff as has indicated that his investigation has concluded that he was not hacked. It doesn't look like the emails on the photographs were obtained by hacking by in a government agency, which was suggested in the medium post, but it came to the attention of AM, I the National Enquirer because the person with whom Jeff bass was having the affair has a brother named Michael Sanchez. And I guess they have concluded in reporting that you, and I both seen that it was the brother who had access to this. Now is he guilty of a crime, right? So yeah. So so there has been public our public reporting that the brother unless you stop on him for one second because he is also something of a fascinating character. And you know, there's no Joe characters I know some of that you just can't make up so close associated Roger stone in communication with Roger stone within days of Roger stone being arrested on charges being brought by Muller's team for for charges of of lying to congress and. Trying to prevent a witness from testifying. He's also associated with car- Carter page who's another character in the sort of. I don't know Trump campaign scandals about coordination with the Russian government. And he's a he's a big pro-trump supporter. And so I think that's where some of the questions about political motivation. Have also come in. Now there I've a lot of questions about how he got access if it's him as has been publicly reported, let's just add one small caveat that he has not acknowledged that it's him like there's there's still some pieces out there. But if it's him I have questions about how he got access to his sister's phone, but yet probably it's a crime. And you know, we need we need to know more information but photos belonged to a private person if for example, he gave his if she'd given him her password and said, you can always be on my phone. You can take any pictures off. That's not going to be criminal. There's going to have to move you forward its own exactly if she folded up, Pinkus, exactly. Completely then it's not a crime. If she did not have knowledge that he was taking them off her phone. That's that's where I think an investigation to him is really warranted. Again, it kind of depends on their relationship and how this came to pass. But it is, you know, can you even imagine? It's her brother. Right. I mean, it's it's one of those moments. I don't know what the name of like one of those Greek plays where like you you almost can't make up. Yeah. It's like a. The relevance in part of whether or not Michael Sanchez is subject to criminal prosecution is as we've been talking about for many, many months now and everyone's getting schooled on this. It makes him amenable to flipping right? So if he has, you know, the hammer on him, maybe has information about other people you said, he's closer Roger stone. He does he's also close to the chief content officer at AM I Dylan Howard, who sent the first Email. He's the guy that sent the first Email to base where he lists. He's sort of characterizes all the pictures that they have. And you know, my favorite part is the last line saying, no editor would want to have to send an Email, basically. Right. It gives me no pleasure to put you over the barrel. But anyway, they also have a personal relationship along Santa personal relationship. It's also crazy that it was an Email. See, you know, one of them was sent by the deputy general counsel of AM. I, and so, you know, they're going to say look this was well Elkin Abramowicz already said, this was a legal negotiation. And so they're going to try to use the lawyers as a way to say. Well, this wasn't extortion. This was a legal negotiation. Now, you can't use a lawyer to commit extortion. Right. I mean, it's sort of you can't do through a back door. In other words, you you can't. But that doesn't mean is it exactly sure you can do it for, but doesn't exactly it doesn't make cleanse it of the still being crime right means a better way to say, it's sort of, you know, a clever way of disguising something if the mob sends a lawyer to the restaurant and says if you don't give my guy thousand dollars a week, I'm going to burn down your restaurant, but in your restaurant be ashamed. Something happened your restaurant still crime still across crime lawyer or not. Lawyer I saw Linders which over the weekend also talking about the first amendment, and you know, the first amendment is important. Yes, it is. But it is not, you know, it's like it's like saying not too oversimplified and to mock it too much, but in the same way that you show up at someone's door, and you say if you don't give me a thousand dollars, I'm going to burn your house down that speech is not protected, so, you know, clear extortion versus mercury extortion is not protected by the first amendment people say could have gone out and said, Jeff Bezos is an idiot. He's a jerk. He treats, people terribly all fine. It's different when you're language actually crosses the line. And the the case is pretty clear on this. And so I'm sure Alan Dershowitz would say I mean, he he sort of said everything is covered by the first amendment. But that's just not the case. I mean words can in fact be criminal. And so I, you know, I think it's worth always keeping in mind, particularly freedom of the press, and I meant issues, but I don't see it here. I hope you have enjoyed the sample of the cafe insider podcast to hear the rest of the episode become a member. Now, a cafe dot com slash insider and get access to all inside or content. That's cafe dot com slash insider.
Season 4 - Episode 3
"Welcome to season four episode three if they walk among us a podcast, dedicated to you K true crime. As many of you now at the end of my we launched on new book, they walk among us, and Rosanna, and I would like to thank you, all for the amazing response. We've received if you wanna purchase a copy, you can find a link in the show nights. Listen caution is advised this episode contains adult females and descriptions that some listeners may find distressing. In the nineteen eighty s cases of consumer terrorism. It reached a peak. You may have heard about the Tylenol murders in America, seven people lost their lives when they can she tablets from bottles purchased in chemists, and supermarkets. And they had no way of knowing the pills, they swallowed were randomly laced with potassium cyanide. A few years later, the United Kingdom had his own scare when lethal contaminants were hidden in everyday products. Extortion letter was sent to managing director, Leslie Simmons that the head office pedigree, pet foods in Milton mobry less to ship on August. Third nineteen eighty eight. Package with a teen of pedigree chum dog food, the extortion letter read this to Simmons. This is a demont pedigree pet foods to pay one hundred thousand pounds a year for five years to prevent his products being contaminated by toxic substances. The accompanying teen of pedigree chum have the contents mixed with by sides, these chemicals were selected because they are colorless odorless, and highly toxic. If payment is not forthcoming from, pedigree pet foods or MAs, limited a large number of similarly, contaminated tins will appear on retailer's shelves throughout Great Britain initially, it's the payment is not made the threat will be carried out progressively initially, any pedigree, chum Doke, food will be poisoned when sales of the product of slumped, another will be subatomic. If payment is not been received the process will be repeated into payment is finally made companies dissolved its fate will then be an example to other pet food supplies spills within another dog food manufacturer. It was requested the runs and be paid into four building society accounts, which it was stressed that been open fraudulently long before using fake, names and addresses. Managing director, Leslie Simmons was instructed to place an advert in the personal section of the Daily Telegraph newspaper to let the extortion night that he had received understood the terms of the letter, it was to read, Sandra. Happy birthday, darling. Love, john. Simmons, inform the Leicestershire police, and well aware of the public scrutiny, the black male would put his company, under it was decided he would meet secretly with detectives in a pub, car-park less than twenty four hours later, you went to London to converse with Scotland Yard's detective chief superintendent, Pat Fleming. To gather more clues Fleming wanted to speak over the phone with the extortion. So recommended the message be placed in the Daily Telegraph. But along with the line want to help must talk finds zero six six four five zero zero six five. Radio. Silence. The extortion change their mind. Now, the police were involved, five weeks ticked by before Leslie Simmons opened a three page letter that had been typed on a printer, the Reuter imply that more. The one person was holding pedigree pet foods ransom. They voice their disdain at the altered ending in the newspaper. Advert. We have seen your pathetic attempts to deceive us in the daily. Telegraph, when are you going to realize that we are not stupid? You're ends. Do not provoke us into any contact we would not have made. Anyway, don't issue that because you have not heard from us for a while. We've ceased with our action. We are busy in preparation for the full implementation of threat. It went on to say that the extortion is would be carrying out their plan in the next few days and the national news coverage would pick up on the contaminations two days thereafter. Another section read, if there is any suggestion, the quality or quantity of the substance is injected a not particularly noxious. We have access to potassium cyanide, will not hesitate to use it. We have avoided it so far for safety. The author of the letter detailed some of the toxins. They planned on, including. Mold removal and wood preservatives, they indicated they would change to a more topical poison to keep interest alive in the press net for damaging pedigree's sales, and reputation even further a paragraph explained how the extortionist managed to open Bank accounts, using bogus details. You may be interested to know we have opened up other Bank accounts in other names in Bregenz for use in on next venture. Thank you for financing this project for, which we are all now per pet. We have used cheap rented, a coma Dacian, which we obtained without references an open these new accounts through the post, you'll company's demise should prove powerful influence to the next corporation. The letter ended with in now, look set the you must learn the hardway it is a real problem for all of us. This other unscrupulous people may also learn our methods through publicity. Now imminent, happy new year. The letter demanded that the first installment of one hundred thousand pounds be paid by November first. It was decided that instead of depositing, the full ransom on October. Twenty eight thirty two and a half thousand pounds would be placed in two of the four counts. The black male listed, it was hoped this might coax out the person or persons responsible. So police could catch them in the act when withdrawing the funds. Withdrawals were made from the fraudulent accounts at cashpoints scattered around the country. One day in Blackpool another in pole. A further letter to pedigree demanded that the run some being crease to one hundred fifty thousand pounds. And if they fail to comply, contaminated Doke food would be planted around Britain. To prove it wasn't just a threat. The I can of poison Doke food appeared, the pedigree pet foods company was informed of its location in a supermarket in Basel the necessary. Thankfully police got to it before it was purchased and fed to a pet. Inside the can they found oats height with a printed message that read Romeo, and Juliet. Police new if dog owners got wind of the scare it could cause more problems, but thankfully, so far no animals had been hurt. Officers sat in an unmarked. Police car outside one of the address is linked to the fraudulent accounts, but nothing. Money continued to be withdrawn every day from cashpoints around the country and the police were no closer to finding out who the culprit or co-prince were. Operation Roach was launched to track down those responsible. But the start of nineteen hundred nine the number of fissures working on the case increased dramatically after detective chief superintendent Fleming sought to spread the net wider. And the renamed investigation operation step was granted further resources from Scotland Yard several cans of poison Doke food had been put on the shelves of shops and supermarkets. They once again the person or persons responsible at directed the police to their location before any damage could be done. Offices were brought into undetake round. The clock surveillance watching numerous cashpoints every night, but much to their dismay the withdrawals would soon. Stop together and the black male is change their tactics after several enormous telephone calls were made the cooler inform. The police more cans of spike Doke. Food had been planted up and down the country and Royston Cambridge Lieutenant Birmingham. The contaminated teens will light catered by authorities. And again, they were retrieved before any animals have been fed with the lace products. Things were about to get a whole lot worse. A police station in less received a disturbing parcel on March twentieth. The books contained a small jar baby food with an accompanying letter. It read it is now clear, they will be no payments until somebody suffers. This jar has been contaminated with poison one spoonful to a three month old baby will render it in need of urgent medical attention. When Hines pay up that will be the end of demands for all time, we will look for your entry from Sondra to bulb in the usual column on March twenty seventh if there is no entry into counting the counts reach to be credited with one hundred thousand pounds. Then we will begin. In an attempt to gap their first clue as to who the culprits might be. Detectives arranged for any Bank bankcards linked to the fraudulent accounts, be retained by TM's the next time one of them was used. On March twenty eighth one was fed into the machine and swallowed but frustratingly no fingerprints were recovered in an angry response. The black male is sent to the chill street. Police station in LeicesteR. They wrote forced me to put poison on the shelves. Eight. Seventh nine thousand nine hundred nine and unsuspecting Cosima purchase a jar baby. Food from her local Safeway supermarket in Rayleigh Essex, she had bought it to feed newborn puppies. She skipped the first spoonful from the jaw, and she did globe of the food, dropped on a hand. He started to feel hot then burn. The puppies narrowly missed, jesting food laced with caustic soda, a chemical often founding cleaning products, their own suffered a chemical burn from the food which was later tested and found to be deadly enough to kill a person twenty seven times over. More die might tight was discovered in the jar and it read poisoned. Three more Heinz products in the stool often more cans of poisoned food were found owns would receive a two page printed letter. The potion read. We are about to return with a vengeance next time. It will be potassium cyanide, in your tamper-proof jaws, the Hanes products in teens will be contaminated. If we are to be prosecuted for murder, we might as well deserve it. But we are confident we will never get caught. If threatened, regular media contact to destroy the Heinz brand, and Winton to read, if you pass this letter onto the police, they will not allow payment, the only way to prevent this his topeka's. Instructions were provided on how to deposit the money. Venite accounts at different building societies in the names, given below register a different accommodation addresses telephone numbers applied then have to account cash, dispense account and pin of the sent to the accommodation addresses way, you will arrange to have the male collected. April tenth in Oxford, a nine month old baby Victoria ca Polk was being spoon fed a peach flavored yogurt by her mother. Helen. Pile of the yogurt around the child's mouth suddenly turned crimson. Allen found her baby had a small piece of a razor blade in her mouth. In the glass jar of the Hines yoga, that was several more slivers of metal and a typed note that read poison in Heinz beans and soup. Seven months into the investigation, and there have been two confirmed instances of the public being harmed by the black male at the time, it was false becoming one of the most significant police enquiries in British history, despite a significant media, blackout to curb hysteria, Randa, void any potential copycat extortion attempts. The public would now wear the scandal headlines like baby food murder warning. We're emblazoned across the front pages of most major newspapers. It's now clear that someone is tempering with baby food that reaches stores across the country glass, has been found in yogurts, and other baby meals. Let safeway's in London. They're checking the seals on all their jaws after nationwide reports of contamination of Hines and Cowan gate products. More cases of contamination reported nationwide. The government issued a statement on developments home office Minister, John Patten was asked who could be behind the extortion. Someone. For some people who are very useful, very demented undetermined, to try to cause maximum distress by preying on the fears parents vulnerable people in society children, and we're not going to give in to consumer blackmail and consumer terrorism in this country after details were released in the press that was panic five babies were admitted to hospital with injuries thought to be caused by the contaminated produce from both Hines and Cowan gate, baby products. An April twenty eighth Matthew cooks and just fourteen months old was hospitalized in Manchester after he swallowed a piece of glass that was concealed in a jar stroke or yoga. The baby was fed three spoonfuls before his mother Paula saw the glass. She screamed in cooled for the baby's father to take them to booth. Behold children's hospital where doctors feared the toddler would require surgery to remove a shot from his stomach, in another incident. An eight month old baby boy, Ian Reynolds received injuries to his mouth when he consumed finally ground gloss in a coun- gate, baby dinner newcastle-upon-tyne thankfully, Ian was treated in hospital with only superficial injuries. His mother Norma told the press shudder to think what the consequences might of been. How could anybody do this to a little baby? After the news reached the general public cools came flooding into police, some worried parents and others. Reporting sabotage products contaminants reportedly ranged from razor blades to glass, caustic soda and drawing. Pins, the letter Roydon was found not to be the work of the black male, but a copycat. Say most of the two hundred fifty Kohl's received in the incident, claiming the food they purchased had been tampered with turned out to be unrelated to the case with the large percentage still being forensically tested. A man was arrested in all pinged in Kent for points in drawing. Pins in the food. He was about to feed his children, claiming it was the work of the Hines blackmail. The twenty four year old was arrested and later released on bail. The police were inundated alerts being flagged up all over the country. Blackpoll report of a broken needle in account gate, shock pudding, that was fed to a four-month-old. The object was discovered before it was given to the infant Luton two instances in which fuse. Wall was found cold in ten of Heinz spaghetti hoops and a shot of gloss in a jar of Heinz baby food broke spun a piece of glass in a jar Hines chicken result, and Bedford gloss yards in Jarve Cowan gate, lamb dinner. A mother who reported shards of glass in some baby food. She purchase spoke to the press because it's a child child's life. That was put. One was lucky. The next one might not be. See someone choke get killed. The more people that not about this now. Everybody needs to know everybody needs to know the dangers stand up and show about it. Don't let them get wove it should clear up all the shelves of everything. And so this is over. The fetchy from top to bottom because the girls is coming from somewhere. There is another children's lives. The second mother believed Hines with too slow to act or it should have been done with the very first one, is it. Find baby it should have been withdrawn from sow until they could be one hundred one sensual. They tracked down how how happened in those days, I think leaving any Hines baby sit on the shelves when when they couldn't guarantee they knew how gloss good in there in the first place. I think it was a very bad mistake. Incidences reported dotty rounding Glenn Scotland Dando Holland, although almost all excluded from the operation stab investigation. The hind spokesman said every report of contaminated food is fully investigated by the police so far. They have referred five Casey's to us to of which are the subject to that current blackmail investigation. Since this crisis had begun. We had everything thrown at us is been pandemonium. It's hardly surprising. The cranks and hoax is getting in on the acts when they are able to switch on a TV set and explain to them, how jaw can be opened contaminated, then resealed the baby foods been spiked with potentially lethal materials spent his of glass razor blades pins and even caustic soda. Hind say they share the public outrage that anyone is prepared to target victim precious and vulnerable as a child. They say they have strict manufacturing processes, but giving no indication as to how they think the food was sabotaged, but his company spine to the panic gripping the nation the company's involve refuse. To comply with the blackmailers demands instead they offered a one hundred thousand pound for ward for information that led to the arrest and conviction the person or persons responsible. With the appeal of sizeable reward police with flooded with tip-offs from family members and friends suspecting their love ones members of the public witnessing someone suspicious loitering in their local supermarket. Amongst the deluge of correspondence. Someone wrote a letter to the Hines managing director, John hinge, the correspondence littered with spelling errors mentioned amongst other things they believe that the culprit was a corrupt police officer. They requested the reward money be deposited in a building society account under the name, he and the Nina folks. Will. Becoming nervous about the effectiveness of the vacuum seal button, utilized on geolog- on's address. These concerns than a spokesperson said, I'll Tampa seals on his proof is we thought they were all technical people are looking at it at the moment. They warned don't feed, your baby straight. From the Jarl the can the contents into a dish extreme like it is now any parent in the country. Who's unaware of the fact that there have been these threats to the safety of children. I think the precautions that parents can take are fairly straightforward and make sure the seal of whatever kind of container, it is that they've bought the baby food, stuffs in is broken. And then make sure that the foodstuff itself has no strange. Substances in isn't doesn't smell. It doesn't seem what taste cumia. Those are simple straightforward recordings, I think any parent can take an obviously, they've been taken around the country. There's no child massively has been seriously injured. We are determined as a government, not to give into consumer terrorism and consumer blackmail. I can tell you that in an attempt to put. Schumer's minds at rest and improved that declining sales owns launch new packaging for their baby food that would see the content served in jars with tamper proof lid, along with a strip of shrink wrapped plastic position around the seal. This would make it easier to assess if the merchandise had been opened between the factory, and when it was purchased will saints pursue pa- marketplace warnings on their shelves owns efforts proved too little too late as other businesses, including boots Tesco as around the co op had already removed Hines and Cowan gate, baby meals from their shelves. A spokesperson for the cope said, we realized that we are going to veasley lose money. But we feel the health of the public must come before profit. The launch of this new packaging would take a few weeks for Hines to implement. And in the meantime, the company destroyed all of their old stock. Police considered this action unnecessary considering their worst so far only two confirmed cases of food being tampered with by the blackmailer. It was suggested by shops, and supermarkets keep the baby food products behind the tills as they was. Sure the jaws had been contaminated wall on the shelves, not in the factory consumers were advised to thoroughly inspect the jaws on purchase and to counter the contents into a bowl and sift through it with a utensil before feeding it to the children. Amidst, the grip of the baby food, panic, chairman of Heinz, Anthony j royally, flew to England to discuss the next steps with his stuff. He told the press the security of the food manufacturing and retail industries in jeopardy. If criminals can succeed in their attempts at extortion. Representative from Heinz also spoke to a journalist, we took immediate action and immediately, all of the Hines baby food products, and all of the coun- gate, baby food products taken from the shelves. How much is that going to affect your business? Oh, that's of little concern at the time like this company, spokesperson advice, consumers on how to check their Heinz products when they go to lift the seal. That's a click normally these vacuum seal jars open very quietly, with almost huff, now if the has been tempered with there's an actual click, but safe to say would be to return, the jars for where they were bought choose finally asked, what will you say to the mothers of babies jars back we'll refund. Jamini faith issue would feed yourself taking extra precautions as recommended. Nineteen thousand pounds was handed over to the police by Heinz in the fight. Hope they might catch the person responsible for the extortion attempt. The funds were distributed into two building society accounts. He street repeated itself as money soon began to be withdrawn from cashpoints across the country. The person never went into a branch to obtain larger sums of cash and made their visit to ATM's during late evenings or early mornings. Avoiding potential witnesses this method was lower. But if think and before long, the withdrawals, reduce the nineteen thousand pounds down to five thousand. The small withdrawals, not ju to the extortionist cunning, but the banking system itself as the maximum daily withdrawal, permitted from an ATM is two hundred fifty pounds. Police it amounted, the Bill of half a million pounds to pay offices over time for staking out various ATM's in the hope that the extortion would be spotted when making a withdrawal. In October nineteen Eighty-nine police set up a third investigation operation is in cool. Who this time information, shed about the case was kept to a minimum and just full high ranking officers were aware of the operations next that's along with special branch of the police force that works directly with British intelligence agencies in matters of national security. That was a fair among police to Lee could lead to the failure of the first two extensive investigations. Aena week lighter. They had a breakthrough. Stookey mile was spotted at a cash point located outside Woolwich building society in Enfield north London. It was making the withdrawal in dimly lit Hoy street at twelve forty five AM in the early morning of topa twentieth. The man immediately drew suspicion from the observing officers when he got out of his car, and put on a motorcycle helmet before he reached the ATM when approached the offices told the man that he was going to be searched he replied, no proper mccoys. Asking him why he was wearing a motorcycle helmet. He said is to stop me getting wet ROY filling through his wallet. They found bankcards linked to depositing account in the names of Ian in Nina FOX and the suspect said. I know what this is about an innocent is the handcuffs were placed on his wrists. He slumped to his knees and find it. The man Scotland Yard arrested was a former colleague in his early forties. Rodney, which ally, former policeman has been arrested by detectives investigating a one million pound blackmail attempt involving threats to contaminate, Hines baby foods, the man was caught trying to withdraw money from a building society cash-dispenser in north London man is also being questioned about the alleged extortion of twenty two thousand pounds from pedigree pet foods last year. The arrest follows the largest news blackout ever in a blackmail case deputy assistant Commissioner Simon crucial, but we were able to covert surveillance exercise. Culminated. Court to wonder scorning in the arrest of a man, tempting to draw money from would experience salty account. The man is next regional crime squad officer who retired on medical grounds in July nineteen Eighty-eight, no charges of yet, been breath. Rodney, which allow join the police force in nineteen seventy six the manning charge of the hunt for the black male was detective chief superintendent, Pat Fleming whose, which allows former boss in the number nine regional crime squad in barking east London, which was hard to capture partly because he was well versed in police procedures deputy assistant Commissioner. Simon crucial said the operation was exceptionally difficult and extremely expensive. At the time of his arrest forty two year old Rodney which alive from haunt church in Essex worked as a security guard. He was still living at home with his widowed. Mother and her pet poodle in a four bedroom suburban property. Which you low was born in Hackney attending south Hackney secondary modern, he received adequate level grades in school. So he stayed on to attend the six form attack. Nick college Aleph I levels in maths, physics and chemistry. He had various jobs, including one as an electronic engineer until he was twenty nine years old when which allow decided he wanted to do something that involve the public, so he joined the police, which you low excelled in training and quickly worked his way up the ranks. He took part in a training, cools which included a case study on the food contamination, black male of Bernard Matthews famous meat distributor. Though, engage that the time in an attempt to meet more women, which allow you to lies the back pages of bondage magazines to advertise a SADO masochistic pen, pal club. He was starting, but his idea, did not go in Harley to plan when he discovered the number of miles signing up far outweigh the females joining. While which you lay worked with Scotland Yard, he started several business ventures, one could Chevron Electric's, which he continued briefly after he left the force in nineteen eighty eight. The none seem to bear much fruit. He was given a common Dacian for exemplary conduct from his boss. The very man that would later investigate his actions detective chief superintendent, Pat Fleming. Now, we're tired from policing, which you wanted to write a book about the perfect crime and proposed his idea to form a night news editor of the Daily Mail George Weber, he admit Weber, a few years before following the break in Buckingham Palace, when Michael Fagin into the queen's bedroom, waking her up before he was taken into custody. Then the conversation which allow discussed how the best criminals would getting away with the crimes they committed and suggested several rules to fully to ensure you don't get caught some suggestions would not have an accomplice another said to keep in the family and another don't be greedy. Which will also claimed that the only way police could identify us through fingerprints, is the driving. Licence or passport could be easily forged. Now, ever, George Weber was not in fuseco ethic about which lows book suggestion. It was then while working as a security guard, you decided to go to loan and black mile, both pedigree and Heinz. It was a ledge, while in custody. Rodney, which ally told police he was fully aware of the food contamination plot because it was a topic of conversation with his ex colleagues on the force during their evenings drinking. In addition, he had attended talks about blackmail by the police criminal intelligence division. He alleged that he was approached by someone who claimed to ni- the identity of the consumer terrorist, but he was cagey with police, refusing to identify the person because he was worried. There was a quote, bend corporate on the force. Rodney, which allow made a brief appearance. Molly bone magistrates court on October. Twenty third nine thousand nine hundred nine to face eighteen charges, including contamination of food. Black male attempting to attain money by deception threats to kill. He pleaded not guilty to old charges. While which low was in custody, awaiting trial, the food manufacturers, who had been at the forefront of the contamination case requested, the talents of the trial, be held in private or in camera Latin for an chamber as they were concerned this Martin. Spar copycats looking to extort more money. This request was rejected by judge Nina Lowry. A year later. Rodney Wichita appeared before the Old Bailey in London. During October nineteen ninety. Is still denied the charges against him and said that he had been implicated by two former colleagues insisting that set him up nine them chief inspector Gavin Robertson, detective sergeant Steve hopes. Which you would like to tell the court, the had made the withdrawal upon the request of his former colleagues to flush out the real coporate. He claimed that he was told by hope some robot sin that only someone outside the force could help as the person responsible was a quote, high ranking officer the night, pied which contained evidence of their conversation at mysteriously disappeared, which allow claimed to digital organizer, which also held details of their conversation. No longer functioned as the police had let the batteries run flat of the he was arrested. In cool. The prosecutor Julian Bevan QC branded Wicha lows claim a fantasy. It was revealed. He kept ahead of the police operation by getting information from unwitting ex-colleagues as Scotland Yard. You'd spoken to chief inspector Gavin Robertson about the case before he was captured. It was heard that which lowered open four accounts at building societies, using the Folsom, Sandra, and John Norman these accounts, we used by pedigree to deposit, the money Julian Bevan QC explained the Rodney, which alot would withdrawn cash from bogus Bank accounts, up and down the country is mobile telephone records corresponded to many of the locations where money was withdrawn from the ATM's weasing to be ref of the late nineteen eighties. He had a mobile phone, which used to contact his mother will making the trips to various cashpoints. Do you leeann Bevan QC said, which allows motivation was greed and a desire to commit the perfect crime? If the plan were successful the extortion of both pedigree. And Hines would have totaled three million seven hundred fifty thousand pounds. It was suggested the which allowed been planning the scheme for years, even winning was serving in the police force. About the items discovered. When police searched the defendants Heim these included razor blades small drill and syringe, which allow it also intentionally misspelt words and incorporated, grammatical errors in some of the letters, he sent to the companies he was black, mainly an example was cyanide which he typed as s I o n my day. Julian Bevan's stated, it was a ruse to make the police believe he was an educated informant. Which allow even try to convince the companies he was blackmailing the information about the coporate claim the one hundred thousand pound reward asking that the funds be paid into an account under the name of Ian in Nina, folks. Big teams of the time to products gave witness testimony. Alan cowpoke from foot told the jury about the incident where her nine month old daughter was found with a piece of razor blade in a mouth after reaching a few mouthfuls of a Heinz peach yogurt. She said a down in the jaw. And so what appear to be shavings of metal immediately looked Victoria? And so she was chewing something. And it looked like a piece of metal on tongue put my finger in a mouth and pulled that what turned out to be a piece of razor blade, and there was some blood on my finger. Lynn bread, Bradley testified that she purchased a tin of Heinz white watchers minestrone soup in a saints. Bruce. Supermarketing croydon. Few weeks later in June nineteen thousand nine she opened the tin, and poured the contents into a source Ponto heat on the hope is the began to foam, and bubble she noticed a note in the liquid. It read this ten has been poisoned. When tests were carried out on the soup. The contaminant was revealed to be caustic soda. The amount of poison injected into the tin can was enough to kill five adults. Shards of razor blades were found in the liquid. Is ex fiance took the stand and told the court her ex partner at claim that during his time in the police force, he'd infiltrated the IRA, working undercover and because of the strain, this was the reason for his retirement. When questioned the witness agreed the which was inclined to exaggerate. During testimony. Valerie edge said the couple admit in nineteen seventy eight and she was part of which low SADO masochistic pen, pal club. Is the group was short on female members. He'd asked her to make up some of the letters using multiple pen names. While addressing the Jiri, she spoke about the trip. She made with which allow to the north of England at the time described the journey as boring, but it wasn't until which allows a rest, the she realized the couple of gone there to put contaminated products on the shelves of supermarkets. Tanzi QC said his client had an excellent police record and the chief, which shall I was sent to prison. It would be a living. Hell. For his own safety. He would likely be kept alone with inmates to roughed and also targeted by prisoners. These include informants, sex offenders and former police officers. After a ten week trial and sixteen hours of jury deliberations on December seventeenth nineteen ninety former detective Rodney, which ally was found guilty of six counts of blackmail, two counts of contaminating pedigree pet foods to counts of trying to obtain property through deception from Heinz, and one shot of making a threat. Kill. He wants to however cleared on several charges, including full counts of contaminating baby food with razor blades, and caustic soda, and another charge, relating to injecting ten of Heinz, white watcher soup with caustic soda with intent to cause grievous bodily harm. Rodney, which was sentenced to seventeen years in prison. This included thirteen years each for the five blackmail charges five years, each for the two counts of contaminating tens of pedigree chum an a five year term for threatening the lives of Heinz food, customers, Lou the sentences would run concurrently. Another four years were added to his thirteen year jail term to run consecutively for trying to obtain property by deception. Judge Nina Larry said, which lows plot showed he was cunning and persistent with the act, highlighting, an evil side of his nature. She went onto say black male on such a scale as this inevitably affects large sections of the community, causing grave anxiety and fear and untold economic loss from food, manufacturing industries. After Rodney Wichita was sentenced. A police spokesperson said it is impossible to describe the feelings of the regional crime. Detectives when the realization that the man, they had been hunting for all that time for the most wicked of crimes was one of their own Powell's feeling of disbelief fund betrayal sickening for everyone the police face public scrutiny for not informing the public sooner if the risks linked to one of the nation's most popular baby foods. There has attention was supported by the then home secretary, you told the radio show that it quote simply encourages more cranks in crooks, and puts more children in danger. Though. Rodney Wichita was captured and sentenced. He's actions caused a monk decline in profits for both pedigree in Heinz with the incident estimated to have lost them over one hundred million pounds in sales onto, also reportedly removed thirty million pounds worth of stock from supermarket shelves staff at a factory in wiccan were concerned about their jobs due to the knock on affect the contamination. Seniors spokesperson said the scare will do for us. What sound Manila did for eggs? It will take years for mothers to forget, trust us again. After details of the food contamination would disclose to the public a large volume of false claims looking for a quick payout were reported to the police, as well as a father from Kent to mothers from West Yorkshire faced a charge of giving false information as did women in Leeds and Wakefield worryingly, which allies actions inspired a number of imitators hoping to extort money from other food manufacturers in Merseyside. An unnamed family of five were poisoned with a small amount of mercury from a packet of deliberately contaminated beef burgers from a freeze ROY shop. Luckily, the family recovered from the affects a scare was reported on the other side of the world when a copy cat in Illinois. Planted pins in two jars of Heinz baby food. Robot. Tell foot from Lincoln shift threaten to inject weed killer into capris cream eggs, less the confectionary company, pay Tim one million pounds. He was sentenced to ten years in prison. Dour knowing was hunted. A seven year jail term, Cardiff Crown Court in March. Nineteen ninety one he had threatened manufacturer by jetting one of their products. A meat pie with weed killer, and sending it to them with a twenty thousand pound to Mont Mark Finn. Bo was jammed for seven and a half years in September. Nineteen ninety one for threatening to contaminate producer to saints were supermarket in Camden, London, finally, Mary mcniven a mother of three from Dublin appeared in court for a charge of knowingly making a false report after it was suspected, she planted gloss particles in a jar of baby food, she purchased four children. She pleaded guilty to spiking the baby's meal after the news about the Hines blackmailer broke in the press. Tests found that the gloss matched a broken beetroot jaw, which officers retrieved from Nathan's, Ben. Ten months after receiving his seventeen year prison term Rodney, which allow appeal to sentence. Defense counsel argued the Wicha, lows crimes were not the type of black male that was quote, murder of the soul, where an individual was held to ransom, he'll say confirm that Rodney, which alot stay in prison was indeed, a living. Hell. The appeal judge said that, which allow it carried out persistent and evil conduct a night believe the sentence, given was not excessive. This would be a warning to those people who might be tempted to follow in his footsteps. Before his release Rodney, which allow it attempt to take legal action. Police pension was cut by seventy five percent. I'm sick creteria, the time, Michael Howard described the crimes as liable to lead to serious loss of confidence in the police, which allies appeal was rejected the high court in London. So where are we now? Rodney, which ally was released from prison in nineteen ninety eight. He moved back to Essex living with his elderly mother and planned on setting up a computer business. Nearly fifty years old. He finally expressed remorse for his crimes until the Sunday Mirror. Think I have a timed would condemn anyone who commit such crimes. It is dreadfully upsetting. I'm very, very sorry. Now, do you apologize to a nation? Which true to his word did set up a computer business in which he was the director and his mother was listed as company secretary now with the firm since dissolved. Ellen cowpoke the mother who unwittingly fed her nine month old daughter, food, laced with razor blade fragments, which lowered planted said of his release, he's an evil man. Anyone who can sit at time and cut up a razor blade coldly knowing that it will cut up a baby walked, she concluded. Don't take specked. He has got any remorse whatsoever. He was in our man who looked at me. Laka was a piece of dirt during the trial. Even though he is now free would not like to meet him. But after ten years, the anger is gone. I wouldn't be frightened dove. Thank you for listening and special things to our patriot supporters. For more information please visit they walk among us put cast dot com. If you would prefer to listen to our podcast, a few days early without adverts, she can head on over to patron dot com forward slash they walk among us. Make sure you subscribe on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast provider.
March Madness: Ugueth Urbina
"Welcome to the sports. Criminals March madness special every day in March. We're counting down the top thirty one sports scandals from Nineteen Ninety to two thousand twenty. Today we dig into the year. Two Thousand Five Philadelphia phillies relief. Pitcher get Beena was relaxing at his mother's ranch just outside Caracas Venezuela when he heard noises outside and went to investigate after confronting five men on the property. An altercation occurred that involved machetes and gasoline. What really happened that night? And if you like this episode be sure to come back tomorrow for more shocking sports events from history on our March madness special. Listen FREE ON SPOTIFY OR WHEREVER. You get your podcast. And on the night of October sixteenth. Two thousand five Philadelphia Phillies pitcher. You'll get your Beena was relaxing. His mother's ranch just outside Caracas Venezuela. When he heard a noise outside he went to investigate and allegedly discovered five construction workers bathing his mother's outdoor pool what happened next May never be definitively known but it involved gasoline a lighter and a machete and resulted in a fourteen year prison sentence for being up. Welcome to sports criminals Abar cast original. This is the sixteenth episode in our March Madness. Special this month. We're counting down the top thirty one sports scandals from Nineteen Ninety to two thousand twenty Carter Roy and I'm Tim Johnson in today's episode. We're going back to two thousand five and the scandal surrounding former Major League pitcher. We'll get through Beena in Venezuela. Extortion of the rich is almost a national pastime. The year prior to the Pool Incident Regina's mother was kidnapped by drug dealers. They held her for a six million dollar ransom in a remote mountainous compound before she was rescued by an elite anti kidnapping unit now. His mother was free and safe and or Beena was grateful for the time together. He was in the twilight of a very successful career as a relief pitcher. Over the course of a decade. He'd racked up two hundred. Thirty seven saves a World Series Championship and Bene- two-time all-star bodied also experienced a couple of brushes with the law in two thousand four. Police arrested him for shooting a gun while driving in downtown Caracas and in two thousand or being was arrested for brawling in a nightclub although the charges were later dropped for both arrests this time her Beena wouldn't be so lucky according to her bean as attorney on the night of October sixteenth or being a found five men bathing his mother's pool. He spoke sharply to them that left and fell asleep but the workers injuries were not consistent with a sharp scolding according to police. It wasn't just or beano who confronted the workers but are being and several other men and the dispute didn't arise because of a late night swim. It was over a gun on during the argument. Urbina and his associates allegedly attacked the workers with machetes while simultaneously dousing them with gasoline and attempting to set them on fire. All five workers sustained serious cuts in one man was badly burned or Beena. Meanwhile was taken to jail and charged with attempted murder though his attorney maintained that he was asleep at the time of the attack or Beena also suggested he was the victim of another extortion attempt and given what happened with his mother the year before. It seems entirely plausible. Unfortunately the judge didn't agree or being a was sentenced to fourteen years in prison for attempted murder deprivation of liberty and violating prohibition against vigilantism. And although he was released after seven years he never again played professional baseball. Thanks for listening to sports. Criminals March madness. We'll be back tomorrow with next year scandal. You can catch our other episodes of sports criminals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
ESPN Maria Taylor
"The gold. Club. Was the top strip club in Atlanta in the nineteen nineties with patrons like Dennis Rodman Michael Jordan Madonna the king of Sweden. But in two thousand, one, the club was put on trial charges a prostitution extortion credit card fraud racketeering, and an affiliation with the MOM. I'm journalist Christina Lee and I'll be taking you behind the scenes of the gold clubs scandal from the booty and bubbly to the courtroom drama. Listen to racket inside the gold club on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. What if I told you that UFO's haunted houses and even inexplicable magic tricks are all caused by the same creature and what if I told you these powerful and ancient beings are meant to be feared the Hidden Jin. A new podcast from iheartradio. An Aaron Bank is grim and mild explores the legends of these ancient and terrifying creatures. Join me rub each other as we step into the world of the Hidden Jin? Listened to the hidden. Jin On apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Today is women crush. Wednesday, and today we're crushing on sister. ESPN's Maria Taylor. Maria, fired back at Chicago radio hosts Dan. McNeill. WHO said she was dressed to host adult film awards instead of Monday Night Football Really Maria clapped back on twitter well Danny. Dearest if you would like to continue making sexist comments about me, please bring your misogyny with the to the NBA countdown header. I'll be hosting tomorrow night Hey, ladies remember you can wear whatever you feel confident in. Beautiful Sister Yeah. Girl. Yeah it's beautiful. Dare you shave dressed like she's going to host the American the adult film awards Oh really who? You Dan. McNeill. Yeah. He's request. We don't know who the hell he is. We Know Maria Taylor though. Is. Can knows her business she? Tells Lords she went to work. I thought this on her instagram post last night they gave her flowers people ever staff. Some flowers. Yeah. Rose Bouquet of flowers. And your first Monday night football game. That was great. Yeah. We take care is that's it. Dude and ain't. No Dame. I'm you. Know Damn Body. While whoever he is, he just got fired boom for his horrible tweet. We'll be back at thirty three after the hour you just lost your job get this dance. Baghdad beers you're listening to. Party. Morning. Show. I'm Brian Huskey, I'm bald and I'm Charlie. Sanders also bald and we want to talk to people about Charlie. Did you know that the less hair you have the more interesting you become jeff course everybody knows that. mentioned him well, on our podcast ball talk, we interview people about being ball. Brian is the show just for Baldi's Charlie no hair os will enjoy this to show is about perception insecurity vanity just like human stuff and you went the things that come up listen to ball talk on the iheartradio APP? Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. The. Goal Club was the top Strip club in Atlanta in the nineteen ninety s with patrons like Dennis Rodman. Michael. Jordan Madonna the king, of Sweden. But in two thousand one, the club was put on trial which charges a prostitution extortion credit card fraud racketeering, and an affiliation with the MOM. I'm journalist Christina Lee, and I'll be taking you behind the scenes of the gold clubs scandal from the booty and bubbly to the Dec- and courtroom drama. Listen to racket inside the gold club on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Junior New Poem
"What if I told you that you have ots haunted houses and even inexplicable magic tricks are all caused by the same creature and what if I told you these powerful, an ancient beings are meant to be feared the hidden Jin a new podcast from I heart radio and Aaron Manque is mild explores the legends of these ancient and terrifying creatures. Join me rub each other as we step into the world of the Hidden Jin. Listened to the Hidden Jin on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The goal club was the top Strip club in Atlanta in the nineteen ninety s with patrons. Dennis. Rodman Michael. Jordan Madonna the king of Sweden. But in two thousand one, the club was put on trial which charges a prostitution extortion credit card fraud racketeering, and affiliation with the MOM. I'm journalist Christina Lee, and I'll be taking you behind the scenes of the gold clubs scandal from the booty and bubbly to the Dec- in courtroom drama. Listen to racket inside the gold club on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Here we go. I resident poet is in the building junior here with the brand new home come on junior. Yeah. this poem today. was inspired by Kanye West. Sounds like a poet though you. Yes. Yes sure that'd be sound like one. Thank you. Don't believe that this poem is about Kanye West because you know. It's something really wrong I don't know what it is, but we all all wear would happen just the other day. Where he peed on his grammy. Yeah. Well. These thoughts in poetic form that was having why he keyed on his grammy. The name of the poem is. Anybody want to guess what do My. Deep. It's deep he. Peed on my grammy. Oh Man I, peed on my grammy. P. I like eggs in Hammy. But he? Peed. PEDO MY GRANDMA I'm not from my Ami. My first name's not Sammy. 'cause man up he. Grammy. Omar grabbing. My last one was not a women. I did not give a damn and you whom slamming. Grammy the end. Slur. Five. Things. Why he was doing it. Saying this. So. My last. Last ribs. Loved. Peeing on him he had to reach in and pull it out because you can't flush the grand. Not. Flesh. Grammy. Out of work for you I'm, not pulling. Grammy out past. GonNa stick the hand. Good Hill wealthy guys got get their grammy out when I was in. College I had a big Afro and ahead when you pick. And I was in the bathroom in airport one time to have my hair done and my peak filling the toilet I get on giving. Pick I'm here Willie grenade. We're moving on moving. Coming up at the top of the hour football is back and so is Hampton. Right. After this, you're listening to Steve Harvey Morning Show.
Introducing: Racket: Inside the Gold Club
"The goal club was Atlanta's top strip club in the nineteen nineties twentieth century alcohol for the rich and famous with patrons. Dennis Rodman Michael Jordan Madonna the king of Sweden. Donald. Trump people over the country and sports figures, politicians, everybody came took, Golden Club it was the spot ago. The gold, club hadn't made and they knew the formula to get filthy rich with the sexiest entertainment and the South I would chain up a girl and dragged through the club drager across the stage and the guys loved it. Loved it. But a march nineteenth nineteen, ninety, nine. Half. The FBI raided the club. This led to a one hundred page indictment from the federal government, which read like a laundry list of scandals. There were charges, a prostitution extortion, credit, card, fraud, airline, fraud racketeering, and an affiliation with the mob. An objective of organized crime at the time to spread their influence, and of course, it's an objective of the organized crime. Program during my time to stop. I'm journalist Christina Lee, and I'll be taking you behind the scenes at the goal club scandal from the booty and bubbly to the Dec- and courtroom drama. At some point, I had these these moments of clarity room like this is. Not Normal Has Been. A. From School of humans, an Iheartradio, this is racket inside the goal club listened to racket on iheartradio APP, apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Words On Water #82: Jenelle Watson on Going Net-Zero in Melbourne
"Got word. Welcome to words on water a podcast from the water environment federation. This is the host Travis loop very excited to be joined by guest from Australia today. I have Janelle Watson the manager of treatment and resources at Melbourne water. Janelle? How're you doing? How you doing doing pretty good? I think you know, it's the it's the end of my work day. It's the very beginning of yours. So glad we could cross paths here. I reached out to you all because I've I've seen a lot in the news recently on social media about some of your efforts. And I really wanted to talk about those especially some kind of your efforts to reduce emissions to generate energy through some renewable approaches really really cool stuff you have going on. So maybe you could start by telling me about Melbourne. Melbourne waters commitment to reduce carbon emissions to net zero by twenty thirty. That's a awesome gold have. I'm sure that's going to require a lot of work. But yeah, could you tell me about that? Definitely really challenging gall mortar is a signatory to the United Nations. Global compact. So we seventeen sustainable development goals to goddess records, a sustainable future. Emissions. Reductions really the element of supporting in asthma. Six eight going on from the past Graham, if Taurean government also all that that clicked climate change policy. He did recycled tag that Halsey. I drive the whole state of extortion to net zero emissions by twenty fifty you notice support achieving that global temperature rise of less than treaty grates on the Paris agreement that tech policy covers oganizations, including government agencies, which includes the war corporations clinching government, Jason missions in Victoria, the water state is responsible for that twenty five percent of the state's emissions. To really really critical for the state water thirties to take pot in in any emissions reduction exercise. Into sixteen the site water plan rainfall that cat to policy by putting an emissions reduction. Target into the nomination for all of the Victorian site water thirties. So they required all of the term water corporations to shave net zero emissions by twenty fifty of the Melbourne metropolitan water corporations that officer achieve Nassar emissions by twenty twenty less years to get done. They did in one is the key contributor the water O'Brien's while of emotions the city in Victoria. We city of five million people and novel mortar responsible for about half of the Victorian, water sector, emissions align. Sorry, getting getting the metropolitan motor corporations invoked is pretty critical to getting emissions reduction from Victoria. So what a metal plate in two thousand seventeen. Pain to reduce emissions by fifty percent by twenty twenty five which is to get on that path the chasing net zero by Turney eighty that was a couple years ago. What progress have you made already toward that toward those numbers a pledge that we might have five elements to it in one of these this one is better limiting in g demand, and it just being more efficient with the way, we run our activities and the second element is to look MSCI more nubile energy schemes to geez, how Tyke villa trinity from the grid and the that element is rant spoke on emissions. What you've you've saying three social media ally is is the quiet will contest have going around Starke when emissions and that's a big fight avow package of works. And then the last two women around are retiring certificates offsets to. Hell what shave fifty cent goal? Twenty twenty five. Sifi? We have. On new energy projects integration through capitol deliveries. I we've we've written a business cases with approval to to got hit the projects, including. A twenty megawatt Sola field at one of out straightened plans and another twelve make a watts at Tom when if I water treatment plants, we'll say looking at solar for sites, and we'll be doing so many high dries. Yeah. That was one of the things that really jumped out to me. I think that was like, okay, I need to talk to the folks in Melbourne as these these mini hydro plants that you've installed could you explain to me how those work and what the benefits are site. We have on that team hydrogen mini-hydro his across the water aren't network. The first one was installed in about nineteen Ninety-three still tomorrow in two thousand ten and then in two thousand seventeen and the water they take advantage of that is drops in the water supply system to generate electricity. They work by ten in the Connecticut, Jane full in water vested mechanic land, g using Tabei. And then. Mechanic, mechanic, ledge is turned into electrical energy using generators. So we generate out fifty five gigawatt hours per year nubile eletricity from those hydro if year, so these are basically for, you know, a layman like myself, I guess he's kind of like little turbines that are inside pipes or is that. Okay. And so it's just the motion of the water passing through spins that generates electricity, basically, and you have plans to put more of these in place another Tinky wore hours per year. Sorry plan to going on in the next months. Okay. Wow. So it just sounds like you all really as this come about came together over the past few years as the mandate was put in place, you've had to do a lot of planning a lot of Sesing how you can kind of reduce emissions how you can generate electricity. And so you're really wrapping up the implementation. Now, putting a lot of these projects in like in the ground in the wall. Water. That's right. And I it's Ross the renewable energy projects a more straightforward than addressing Skype one emissions Skype on emissions. Our whole different challenge being that we really have a great way of measuring those emissions yet and and count mission. Very well heady Nari how to go actually address them. What are the other efforts that jumped out of me was generating bio-gas, especially at your your western treatment plant. What's going on with that? Winston trading plan is a fairly unusual Wieser Trayvon guess, it's it's very bad science ten thousand hectares which is about same size areas. The moments save a day. It's a really big. It's it's primarily lagoon by striven plant oil. So have activated sludge fines to support in remitting notch before if recycled or discharge to the by. It's it traits about five hundred twenty megahertz podiatrist think is about hundred forty and day all of the flyer guys faster, these lodge, hard, grains, which is incredibly unusual trait all fly through anaerobic trading out front, and that's where we have the may time rich by guests that we can then use to generate power onsite news on side, we generate about three thousand cubic meters per hour by gas, and that's applied ten megawatt Palestintian generating seventy thousand megawatt hours pay which is Cleveland about fifteen ten thousand times. Yeah. You have some good chunks going here with that bio-gas with the solar that you're putting in just some good chunks megawatts that for sure that are gonna add up. Yeah. Another six megawatts potted that that achieving the fifty percent by twenty twenty five six megawatts generation capacity going. The west treatment plant in the next twelve months, and then plant be energy expo ITO. You should you have a multi step plan to get you toward zero. Are there? Some other parts of that you could you could talk about in addition to the the six mates generation capacity in Moscow Sola pass station. Many hydros. We're also rested said before he the the Skype one emission scope. One emissions for us about a half of our portable emissions, and then also rarely managed manages the Skype to electric grid tight. So Africa's this period of time as twenty twenty five to really better understand the how where and why is direct missions in Howie might possibly into van to eliminate them. We started out with a workshop acking favorite March two thousand eighteen with expense. Miranda strategy in the world to try to connect with other people who are also interested in emissions reduction. And understanding that in all such click new ideas to Mike about we JC missions now to trading plans plants then falling back that we've introduced a science contest to try and get new ideas in the idea behind that is the the the ones that that a successful will be funded by the mortar to generate the next level of day. Thailand flesh app is ideas in something passed, but can move forward is that open just to kind of the general public into researchers the scientific community are targeting universities with that or weekly wanted to get as many as possible site. We obviously had some requirements around being able to deliver on the ide- say universities at the water cooperations consultants technologies. Applies Republic K decay. Keep put submissions. Interesting. Okay. You know, I'm in communications public relations trying to build awareness of water issues. So I'm really interested in how your customers feel about this plan, you know, especially given the investments that are going to need to be made e you're making them right now. And all this different technology are going to need to keep investing along the way to get to that goal by twenty thirty how if you communicated this all to your to your customers, and what's kind of the reaction. Our big at being passive out of what we do. And and have they feel about what we do is incredibly important. We have completed some races like last J that is really very little awareness of our noble energy and emissions reduction initiatives who once we got a token to customers about things than they was a strong appreciation for what we were doing and they're also supportive doing more to reduce emissions patta. Tackling climate change. They haven't done a huge amount of races in community guys night yet, but we will be exploring hall of mall over the next months. We have a five year prostrating, end and funding submission prices. And we're going into that that now. So as part of that, we do a lot of Canadian guys to understand what it is. They want from the water Serie, choice drainage services and the tie that into what we put forward as. Submission to out regulate on. I'm curious about the other water utilities water corporations services around Australia, and if they are on a similar kind of path with emissions or have similar goals. Yeah. Is that kind of a countrywide effort at this point hit sides very much Victorian state. If it. I'm not aware of any of the state having similar Gatien to Victoria's around reducing emissions. I guess I also wanted to ask you about the climate there you mentioned climate change. And I mean, I've seen a lot of stories the past few months just the incredible heat. A that there's bed in in parts of the the lack of rain. And I know you're in a all the way to the to the south in the country. But yeah, what's what's going on with climate in your in your part of the of Australia? I guess it's probably in the past the will net way getting hotter and drier the amount of water. We get from traditional sources is Jay seeing every and those sort of freak storm events and things like getting more and more common. And say save arise is also significant issue frost, particularly for the west trading. Find his it's very flat pace of wind. It's rot on on fulfill by which Melvin known sits on. So as say that will rise increases, then we'll get a law. Bolaise paddock the west intriguing plants to to inundation while. So I guess you have to you're already starting to think ahead on on what you're gonna do with that. Right. Era. Unfortunately, the long-term isn't as long as we think here. What's it like having the support of the public, but also government officials to deal with climate change? You're probably aware of the politics here the United States where we have certain part of our political party that is denying climate change. So it makes it a bit harder. I think for the water sector to respond. What's it like having support on your side? I probably priest in in the federal spicing that there are still denies crime change in the federals vice. In. Victorian government is very much hind doing something right to net, obviously has been invaluable for us in in making base steps towards reducing emissions. We didn't have that support than would from the government as well. As the customers that it would make it really really difficult to on to justify and make some of these projects happened some of the price will happen anyway because the present value positive actually provide a return on investment, but the ones which aren't the ones which would be a whole lot of frost to to justify spending time in money on. I don't know if I feel better or worse hearing that you have federal officials that are, you know, denying climate change as well. It's a it's frustrating right to say, it wasn't that the sites make that if it when the federal government, it's inside conflicted apps. The US to you that the site to making more of an F it than the federal government. Exactly. It's a similar situation here where we have some a big coalition of states that are deciding to lead the way if if the federal government's not gonna do it they are banding together and moving ahead very aggressively. So good well, while while a have you what what else would you say are kind of the big challenges for you all with with your water utility there, you know, with in the US, it's it's aging infrastructure. You know, that's been in for the ground for a long time. It's really rapidly growing populations. You know, it's nutrient pollution in some places. But what's what's what are your big be challenges there in Melbourne exactly what you just said punishing Babic challenges. Melons one of the fastest growing cities in the world with growing woman sent random in relation with I've million now looking to be eight million by twenty twenty fifth. Eighty sorry. It's really fast growing population amend g assets as you said in in the US is also a big challenge for us way. After each system was fist vis putting in eighteen ninety seven. So that's very old one hundred euros. So is in the lacking trailing plant was built in nineteen ninety seven as well. So again, that's really all I'll plant, obviously, all these systems evolve along on get upgraded in China. But still it's a a lot of aging infrastructure across the city in mice Davidson is more dense metropolitan areas rather than being out in that in the less dense parts of the city. I guess what are the other big issues? We have is is issues with affordability where rising water rates people that have a tough time with their whole package of household bills. And how do we make sure that we can? That water is still affordable to parts of our population. That is at a lower income level. Is that something that you all have some issues with or now? Eighties and. Oh memoir that she a house. I and not sure if you have hope salary tayla interaction works, but we provide the house our water in series status melt in their three Ray Tyler's that cover the different regions of but southeast off yard sailing water and city West Water covering this affects north west western impacts Melvin. So they have more that direct customer direction. But from the density stakes at telling us about a third of the population is on some kind of hot shake occas- affordability is really critical issue for us. And this does different precious increasing bills. It's interesting to hear similar water challenges, you know, across across the world. I know that a lot of the European countries are have these exact same package of issues. We have them the US. You haven't been Australia? So good. We can all share knowledge and information. Should do more of it. Yeah. I know that some of the other, you know, big cities like Perth and Sydney, maybe don't have the same mandates. You do with the emissions. But are they watching with interest? The steps you're taking to to reduce energy use and to generate your own energy. Absolutely this interest on degeneration to keep you late. One kiss Ican all the changes in technologies solo getting shaper batteries getting shaper time as well. As a lot more potential to put his kinds of things in for. West money and actually actually provide a financial return on this can be cheaper than passing trinity from grade. Well, Janelle I really appreciate that. We found a time when we could connect it was work for both of us. Very interesting. I look forward to continuing to follow things happening. John your way. Thank you very much time. Word.
Facebooks latest takedowns reach Pakistan, Russia, and the US. Election meddling. Chinese espionage looks inward, again. New alt-coin stealer. NZX DDoS update. That Twitter hack.
"Funding for this cyber wire podcast is made possible in part by last pass. Last passes an award-winning security solution that helps millions of individuals in over seventy thousand organizations navigate their online lives easily and securely businesses can maximize productivity while still maintaining effortless strong security with last pass. Last pass can minimize risk and give your it team a breakthrough integrated single sign on password management and multi factor authentication solution. A. FACEBOOK's August downs included coordinated in authenticity from Pakistan Russia and a strategic communication firm. And the FBI say, nope of the Russians weren't in voter databases a Chinese abt turns its attention from Europe back to Tabet a new crypto currency steeler is active in central. Europe. New. Zealand's De dos attacks may be an extortion attempt Joe Kerrigan has the story of reporters stolen facebook account. Our guest is Oh, fear harp pause from guard cord labs with their button net encyclopedia, and there may be another teenage mastermind behind last month's twitter hack. From the cyber wires studios, data tribe I'm Dave Bittner with your Simul summary for Wednesday September twenty. Twenty. During August facebook took down three networks for engaging in coordinated inauthentic behavior that is organized disinformation. The activity broke down as follows four, hundred, thirty, five accounts, one, hundred, three pages, seventy eight groups, and one hundred seven instagram accounts run from Pakistan were removed. They saw it influence in both Pakistan and India. The Stanford Internet Observatory characterizes these as aiming to counter criticism of either Islam or. Government. Thirteen accounts in two pages operated from Russia were taken down facebook said these were linked to individuals associated with past activity in the Russian Internet research agency. This activity was directed mostly against the US the UK. Algeria and Egypt with plenty of Cunanan covid nineteen chatter graphic says much of the networks activity involved redirection to peace data, which represents itself as a progressive independent. News. Service. Piece data it's only fair to say has reacted with outrage shocked and appalled by what they call the ugly lie that they're a Russian propaganda tool. FACEBOOK took action against these networks on the strength of a tip off from the FBI. fifty-five accounts, forty two pages and ninety-six six instagram accounts linked to the Washington based communications. Firm less strategies were removed this network devoted itself to Venezuela with some attention also paid to Mexico and Bolivia. Feed reports that Sia less strategies didn't respond directly to a question about coordinated intensity beyond briefly stating version of its corporate mission. The line, the accounts took were in Venezuela pro-opposition in Bolivia pro regime, and in Mexico, Anti Marina a leftist political party. FACEBOOK did note that C ls as a whole wasn't banned since much of the firms activity was legitimate. It's not yet known on behalf of what clients CEO less may have been working. To return to peace data, The New York Times notes that the Internet research agency may have succeeded in making an American connection according to the Times the Russian succeeded in getting actual Americans to write for peace data, which would account for the relatively good idiomatic control on display in its posts. The time says, the Internet research agency posted offers for freelance writers on a job board. The also says it spoke to one such freelancer who was steered to peace data by an IRA job board. The writer asked to remain anonymous because he didn't wish his professional reputation damaged I his having been duped by the Russian government. He was paid seventy five dollars a post, which relatively speaking is chicken feed in the freelance market. So in this case, the Russians appear to have made use of the usefully gullible. What the Russian Oregon's less politely call the governor said. The content on peace data's site, which times believes to have been designed to harm the candidacy of Democratic nominee. Joe Biden by fomenting dispute within what might otherwise be a more disciplined left contains complaint that the Democrats are insufficiently progressive on various issues and denunciation of alleged Republican closeness to unsavory far right elements. When president trump appears on peace data's pages, it's with horns, hooves, and a tail metaphorically speaking. So if the Times is right, it's a relatively sophisticated propaganda gambit. Of course peace data could just be the progressive cited claims to be. But it might be a front to. Chatter about Russian compromise of US voter databases has come to nothing Susa and the F. B.. I haven't seen anything of the kind during this election cycle. If you look at the twitter comments in the agency's thread, you'll find many skeptical one liners but we think and the bureau have got this one right yesterday's flurry of tweets linking back to a Russian newspaper articles seem to be much ado about some matters of public record. Researchers at proof point report that Chinese government threat group Ta four thirteen, which earlier deployed subculture malware against European targets is now using it in a spearfishing campaign directed at the Tabet Diaspora. This proof point things represents a realignment of Chinese cyber espionage assets from Western targets of opportunity, an urgency, the covid nineteen pandemic through to the fore and back to more traditional targeting of domestic groups. The PR see holds to be unreliable and undesirable like of course Tibetans. The recent wave of distributed denial of service attacks against targets in new. Zealand most prominently, those against the Stock Exchange may have been part of an extortion campaign. Stuff reports that Government Communications Security Bureau Minister Andrew Little said that the G C. SBA is investigating emails received by victims shortly before the attacks that demanded a bitcoin payoff if there was no payment, the attackers would render the victims networks unavailable beyond that GSP hasn't said much the investigation continues. The mastermind of the July fifteenth twitter hack in which several high profile and high value accounts were briefly. But effectively hijacked is said by the US justice department to have been seventeen year old Graham Ivan. Clark? It now appears that an additional person is of interest to the investigators and this person of interest is of even more tender years. The New York Times reports that the FBI has served a Massachusetts teenager with a search warrant and his parents home. Appearance themselves aren't suspects but their son who quite properly lives with them is. The. Warrant and other documents are under seal and the teenager has not been charged The New York Times declined to name the young man on account of his youth but they do cite sources that told them. The youth of interest may have been at least partly responsible for planning the breach and carrying out some of its most sensitive and complicated elements. So instead of one mastermind, the twitter hack made in fact have had to. It's time to take a moment to tell you about our sponsor recorded future if you haven't already done so take a look at recorded future cyber daily we look at it. The cyber wire staff subscribes and consults it. Daily web is rich with indicators warnings, but it's nearly impossible to collect them by eyeballing the Internet yourself. No matter how many analysts you might have on staff and were bedding that however many you have you haven't got enough. Recorded future does the hard work for you by automatically collecting an organizing the entire web identify new vulnerabilities emerging threat indicators sign up for the cyber daily email to get the top trending technical indicators crossing the web cyber news targeted industries, thread actors, exploited vulnerabilities, malware, and suspicious Ip addresses, subscribed today, and stay ahead of the cyber attacks go to recorded future dot com slash cyber wire to subscribe for free threat intelligence updates from recorded future, and we thank recorded future for sponsoring our show. The folks at Garda core labs recently launched a button it encyclopedia which they describe as a universal knowledge base of past and present button campaigns researched by the labs team. Fear Harp. Pause is a security researcher at guard accord labs. So, guarded court has a special network of sensors deployed worldwide, and each one of these sensors is able to capture cyber-attacks in record every single event that takes place in these attacks, and since we have this very unique database of Mass Kayla tax, we decided that we would like to share it with the security community so that both security researchers threat analysts and defenders can take a look at the data and may be incorporated the data into their policies and defensive mechanisms. And maybe to to expand the research themselves, I mean we have all this data and we thought why keep it for ourselves. That's basically the main motivation. So you put together guard accords, button it encyclopedia can you give some examples or what are the types of things that people can expect to find in here? So we mostly see mass-scale attacks. These are opportunistic attacks. AIM, at of very, very high number of servers worldwide and we mostly see denial service attacks distributed denial service, dos and crypto mining task. But from time to time, we also see very interesting attacks in technical terms or in terms of the scope that the attack campaign reaches So so we can find both. Orion campaigns that we're all very familiar with unused to. But from time to time, we see more unique type of attacks so we can we can find. Both in the encyclopedia. and where do you suppose things are headed when it comes to button it from from the research that you're doing having a a very close look at these sorts of things is this something that we're getting a handle on or are we are we staying even with with the task or are they gaining ground on us? I. Think it's a kind of well I'm not the first to say it, but it's kind of a cat and mouse game. So attackers are definitely becoming more sophisticated. I can say that for sure I'm looking into these attacks. They are very talented software developers, many of them know what they do and why they do it. But on the other hand, we're also becoming smarter we're monitoring their malicious activity and were improving our security measures accordingly. So. I can't really say that we're getting ahead of them all the time, but it's kind of a you know one step on their end and then. We're making one step to to achieve their face. That's fear Harbaugh's from Garda core labs Most of you know the cyber wire as the problem solvers of information overload in the cybersecurity industry we do this by providing concise news and analysis you can rely on to stay informed and save you time. Well, I'm here to tell you more about our premium service cyber wire pro it'll give you access to even more content. That is sure to enrich your understanding of key issues and trends in the cybersecurity space a subscription to. Pro includes exclusive briefings and podcasts like this Eso perspective show. You'll also get extended interviews participation in quarterly analysts calls spoken editions of our briefings and much much more finally to top it all off. We're currently providing subscription discounts to students military enterprises. An academic institutions learn more about these features and discounts and become a member of the pro family by visiting the cyber wire dot com slash pro that's the cyber wire dot com slash pro. Join me once again, Joe Kerrigan. He's from the Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute also my co-host host over on the hacking humans podcast. Hello, Joe Hi Dave interesting story came by this is from W. h. e. c., which is a television station in Rochester New York from one of their reporters named Deanna Duberry, and she ran into some interesting trouble with her facebook page. What's going on here Joe? That's right. She has a professional facebook page that she maintains on Facebook, of course, and has over eleven, thousand followers and thousand people who like the page. And at one point time, recently, her facebook page has been hijacked. and. It looks like this was a pretty good social engineering attack that they targeted. Deanna she got a notification message telling her that she had violated facebook's community standards and that her account could be disabled right which is a typical fear tactic that social engineers use to get you to short circuit you're thinking. And then was essentially fished for her credentials. So following the advice of these of these fraudsters. They'd already gotten her attention. She is prompted to enter her username password and then change your password. And then one prompt for ide- which made her suspicious but she researched it and according to facebook help section they will ask for your ID when they're suspicious activity. Now I don't know about you but facebook is actually asking me for my driver's license. That's that's it. I'm not going to facebook. I'm. I don't have a public facing. Of facebook presence for Joe Kerrigan from Jay do that's just not how how role that's do that on twitter but not on facebook at one friend who said the facebook not going to give you my I D I bet on facebook for ten years I use a pseudonym and I like using the pseudonym, and if you don't like that, then we can terminate our relationship right now and this person is still on facebook so I guess it worked out. But. This person also doesn't have any public facing pages as well, but I can see why they wanted it. Now, I will bet that facebook ask these scammers four the. And the scammers just turned around and asked, Diana for her ID so then they could present it and look like Deanna to facebook. Once they got control the page they deleted all of her post that were on that page. They completely cleared out the history and they turned it into a hair care product and they limited the audience to only. People in Vietnam and Cambodia, which is interesting because now her ten thousand or eleven thousand followers in the US can't see your page anymore. Why would they do this? They start selling hair care products well. My guess is that they wanted to take over a page that had a lot of followers so that when they limited the access, the global access to these two countries. People in those countries would see, hey, this page already has a lot of followers it must be legit. NBA Lots of people like these hair care products must be good. Exactly. And one of his biggest gripes here, and it's a legitimate gripe is that these people then proceeded to buy advertising to promote this page and facebook advertising dollars from these scammers to promote this page to almost half a million viewers and she has a legitimate gripe here. Fortunately, she has taken care of of the access to the pages, regained access to it and I. Hope. That she's enacted, two factor authentication facebook offers three ways you can do multi factor authentication they'll send you a text message with the code. They'll give you a a software token that you can use like Google indicator with, or you can actually use something like you became use a hardware token. And that's how I have my account secured. If you don't WANNA make the expense of buying a google indicator I think is fine. It's it's pretty good Any of the authentication APPs are all pretty much the same inner workings. The only risk is at some point time you have to expose your seat on a web page and as long as nobody's taking screen shots of your of your machine while that's happening, you're going to be fine. But. If somebody is taking screen shots of your machine, if there is somebody malicious on the inside. And they have that kind of control. Then they're going to have access to your to all the your multi factor authentication. But that's kind of low risk. Yeah. Yeah. Well. So the good news is she got control back. But. It's it's interesting interesting case here I guess a reminder that anything that is of value. You should have multi factor set up for absolutely absolutely. It's unfortunate especially since deleted Oliver contents using a lot of the content for writing books and facebook says, they can't restore it for which which I think is unfortunate. But yeah. Yeah especially as hard as it is to delete facebook page or to facebook account. Really. It's it's hard to believe that anything's gone forever. Invasion is caught and I don't think those posts don't exist anymore just think. Is set to false and that facebook just doesn't want to take the time to go back through and and do that for for Diana and I kind of I understand why they don't want to do that because because if they do that, they may think they have to do it for everybody but they really don't they can be selective. This is a case here where I think it would be good for them. I mean she's got a pretty big following. She's a pretty well established and prestigious journalists and I. Don't think you can stop talking about this. It may be and FACEBOOK's interest to go ahead and help her out. All right interesting story for sure Joe Kerrigan. Thanks for joining. US, live pleasure. Thanks to all of our sponsors for making the cyber wire possible especially are supporting sponsor proof points observe it the leading people centric insider threat management solution learn more at observe it dot com. And That's the cyber wire. Links today's stories. Check out our daily briefing at the cyber wire dot com and for professionals and cybersecurity leaders who want to stay abreast of this rapidly evolving field sign up for cyber wire pro. It'll save you time keep you informed and it's faster than a speeding bullet. Listen for us on your Alexa Smart Speaker to. The cyber wire podcast is proudly produced in Maryland out of the startup studios of data tribe with building the next generation of cybersecurity teams. Technologies are amazing. Cyber wire team is Elliott Peltzman Peru, precaut- Stefan Siri Kelsey Bond Tim no Dr. Joe Kerrigan Carol, -Tario Been Yellen Nick, Valenki Gina Johnson Bennett Mo- Chris Russell John Patrick Jennifer, Ivan Rick Howard Peter kilty, and I'm Dave Bittner. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Blue.
The History of Cybersecurity with Joseph Menn
"Today's episode we have Joseph Men Author and investigative journalists at Writers. Joseph is the most respected mainstream journalists focusing on tech policy and cybersecurity issues today he recently came out with his newest book titled Adult Cult of the dead cow how the original hacking supergroup might just save the world which tells the story of the oldest most respected and most famous American hacking group of all time its members numbers invented the concept of Hacktivism and created what was for years the best tool for controlling computers remotely which in turn forced large corporations to focus more on protecting their customer security in this episode chat and Joseph discussed the beginnings of computer hacking Joseph's writing over his thirty year career as a journalist an author and the courage it takes to write about such controversial the topics today Joe Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me so what what brings you out <hes> this part of the country well based in San Francisco where I've been covering cybersecurity for twenty years versus the L._A.. Times and then the Financial Times and I've been doing investigative work on it for Reuters for the last seven years and you've written a number of books throughout that time. Could you take us back. Maybe to your first book and walk through them because I think a history of your writing is almost like you know a history of the <hes> security industry in the sense so if you can take us to the beginning to walk through sure so I started covering tech as a whole with security is a piece of that in ninety nine I was at the L._A.. Times then and it was the peak of the DOT com craziness and you know people were investing in clearly ridiculous things because they were convinced somebody somebody would pay even more for it. You Know Post I._P._O.. And it was a crazy time and being the truth business it was sort of hard to a surprise people as her get through the noise and say now wait a minute. This doesn't make sense. I got to know some of the people at at Napster and I just thought it was a really interesting case study <hes> because lots of people had heard after very famous at the time Shawn Fanning's first hacker on the cover of of <hes> of Time magazine at least Young Hacker Steve jobs minute the U._S.. You know he had brought appeal and people you know kids love the idea of free music who wouldn't right you know what was interesting about it is that it was pretty clearly illegal <hes> what they we're doing and the blue chip venture capital firms went to invest in anyway and so to me was serve a great illustration of how the venture capital the system around here can jump start technology but also corrupt it <hes> because it'll take it off in a weird direction if they think that's where the big payoff might be. The Gray area is very the okay. I thought it was like a cautionary tale. You know their business model. People didn't know what the actual strategy was which was another one right about. It was famous but Shawn Fanning never had control of the Dang thing his uncle did is uncle kept seventy percent of the thing on corporation is uncle had a really checkered past and then the business strategy was basically extortion it. Was You know we're gonNA grow so big no so much about music consumers. You know if somebody like C.. C. D. C. You know the odds are they're going to want this and here's their email address. Here's how to reach them that the record industry three would cut a deal with them and buy them off. We just punt liability yeah and I don't think they knew very much about the record industry because those guys stiff completely legitimate producers performers former artists all the time so like possibly the wrong industry to kind of try to extort I just thought it was a great tale and it was also a handy for me that the kids who are I thought really likable smart different kids you know. I don't fault them for not knowing how this works. How Copyright Law works? I you know those the grownups that screwed it up and because because this was new to the kids they was like they hadn't been to pitch meeting. They didn't know what a term sheet was. It was a way to educate people about how the system worked because there is and so you don't have this boring boring part were now. I tell you the history of Silicon Valley. It's like a fun adventure where you where you learn about it without being painful. It's pretty thrilling and all of the gentlemen you mentioned gene. We're learning in real time and that's why I think sometimes people their humanity isn't taken into consideration with stories because it's a it's a whole another thing to be presented with somebody trying to give you millions millions of dollars without that person isn't asking questions and they're aggressively trying to give you millions of dollars and I think until you've been on the receiving end of that. How just how ethical a person you are? You're not really sure right and it's all your push to those edges or pushed into the situations. It's until then you find out so I'd be curious to know like what you've obviously followed that company and you Sean and everyone so what was the genesis like. I know it's such a long story well. It happened really fast. You know it started when Sean was seventeen and he came out here Sean Parker <hes> <hes> his co founder who's I guess now more famous because he wound up being the first president of facebook billionaire. You know he had met amuse crashing on couches. He'd never been on a plane before before this are trying to raise money. It was just supercharged. It was really really fast and the crash was pretty bad. They got creamed in court but what's interesting in the connection action to the security stuff is that you know again wasn't really presented in the in the Glossy magazine and the very carefully controlled a T._v.. Interviews <hes> but Shawn fanning was a hacker they wrote port port scanners. He hung out with some really smart. People and one of them was this hacker group called Wu and he was also in an I._R._C.. Internet relay chat channel called <hes> pound C._D._C.. After the cult of the dead cow just about every hacker online or engineer or interesting person they were gravitating towards these message boards right right those are some the earliest Beta testers of the Napster Program Program. Were like these more sophisticated slightly older hackers who've gone on to do incredible things so one of the members of Wu co-founded Watts APP and another another one is a guy named Doug Song who founded <hes> Arbor Networks Big Diaz <hes> Prevention Company and more recently duo security originally bought by Cisco for her. I think more than a billion so it's really interesting group and it was kind of a fun time where you had kids and very sophisticated sort of older folks some criminals criminals and some C._e._O.'s and they're also like they played pretty well again. You know they found common interest in in figuring out how stuff works they tried to respect. I would say the rule of law if not the spirit of the law law sometimes and it's a gross generalization but I would say on balance. Maybe that's a fair statement. Yeah I mean you know. Some of these. People were out now criminals but most of them are there wasn't wasn't the point of these groups and the out now criminals they didn't last that long doing what they were doing. Groups like a legion of doom and masters of deception that was that was in full bore criminal activity in those guys get broken up but who had a couple of criminals is just that wasn't the point of view except in the you know in the very beginning when everybody was doing long distance service you know so they connect to a bulletin board because if it wasn't in your area code then your parents are going to five hundred dollar phone bill and you're GonNa have an unpleasant conversation so napster was the first book and then the next book was I started I was writing about cybersecurity more and more and in Oh three there was kind of this tectonic shift where before that if there's something went wrong with your computer because you clicked on some dumb <hes> somebody was pranking or you know somebody wrote a virus after Oh three it was probably organized. Crime and people were slow to realized that but what had happened was that the spam situation got bad enough that I._T.. Folks were blacklisting <hes> bad I._p.. Addresses and email addresses and so the easiest thing to do if your spam and you need to reach a bazillion people is to have a virus writer you know collect a bunch of computers combat net and then spew out <hes> email like in the middle of the night from your grandma's living room P._C.. Without her knowing it I just thought it was going to get worse and worse because there was no actual defense to this sort of like the second second easiest thing besides relay spam you could do with his net if you had no morals was to denial service extortion attacks were they would you know knock over a website <hes> <hes> with meaningless Ping's from all these different machines and say you know give us ten thousand dollars or your website states now. One of the first groups that they hit were these offshore gambling sites in Latin America cost Rican other places aimed at American gamblers. You know gambling is legal here in most of the states and it was like why would they pick on those as well because they had pretty poor infrastructure <hes> given that they were in less developed countries <hes> they weren't gonNA call the F._B._i.. Because the F._B._I.. Considered what they were doing illegal and if they went down super bowl Sunday they were really gonNa hurt me a lot of cash so these are fat target so these <hes> largely Russian bad guys were targeting those and we'll technologically. It wasn't all that interesting the anybody could understand the business model. You know it's not as complicated as explaining well. The real problems over security is patch management. You know when I was in the newspaper business. I thought I could hear like all the newspapers being put down at once. It's across the city. If I had to write something about patch management's rights so this anybody could understand this good old fashioned extortion and they hired a like California defense guy named Barrett Lyon and he sort of got he got onto the I._R._C. Channels that we're talking about what to do and he figured out a a real I._p.. Address of somebody in in Russia and eventually real name then the same bad guys we're going after publicly traded gambling companies in the U._K.. U._K. found out what Barrett was doing and they sent a detective to Russia for three years and at that point Russia and the U._K.. Were getting along okay and they want to make an example. This is like you know even if you're in Russia. If you're attacking Western businesses we will get you and they did. They got three guys they were sent to jail for for eight years which happens like once every never and so that was like that was the happy story in my next book which is called fatal system error really the point where I mean sort of satisfying satisfy that these guys are actually caught took years to do it. These are mid level guys. They're not evil geniuses and the twist is what happens when they A lot of smart people in Washington knew how bad it was but the general public didn't and so basically I was doing an Enron around Washington. I wanted people as a whole to grasp grasp this because I felt that once they did then maybe congress would get try to get in front of the people do the right thing <hes> so I was trying to I was trying to go around them to regular folks but it is in English you know that book is written for regular folks and it's got hookers and guns and drugs and good old fashioned Gambino's not just Russian mobsters and Jeff Moss Oss the the founder of of Defcon black hat. He said he used to go to Washington to try and talk sense into whoever was running the show and he said every time he went he would like he would get another ten or twenty copies of my book to hand out to Congressional staffers like here here. Here's a simple explanation can narrative you can follow with interesting characters the shows as you how bad this is in a store you can repeat until the very people are on the edge of their seats right right and then at the the the end of that book. It was all recommendations. Here's what Congress Congress should do is came out in two thousand and ten actually most of those things have been done which is nice. You know we're still in deep trouble but <hes> a lot of those things have been done. Did I give you a lot of hope to see a lot of those changes changes in recommendations implemented. It was satisfying but unfortunately the situation is so bad. We're a long way from making this better. In fact I think things are still getting worse if you look at <hes> <hes> the Internet of things and all the huge gaping vulnerabilities that don't get patched and really in Washington the fact that the executive branch spends bands about ninety percent of cybersecurity money on offense including the ability to intercept. I think that's a disaster. There's American football saying that says they you know good offense wins games and good defense win super bowls all the advantages for the attacker and I'm super worried now about unchecked escalation <hes> in in the cyber domain as the dod because some people seem to consider under a cyber attack a direct physical attack and they want the military to view it accordingly is that the problem is is that this cyber is asymmetric so it's a great way for little countries to catch up to us around. We got a whole bunch of bombers that's great even North Korea which is an impoverished desperate country can train up some hackers and do some pretty serious damage so the more or did cyberattacks are seen as as kosher. You know what we're doing to Iran right now. We're really raising the risks for civilians here. Yeah I think it's the thing where you know like an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind and we're kind of entering a scenario right now where I'm not sure a lot of people have the confidence to back down from cyberstation and just prepare more on the defensive side right because offense is an easy self generally for like the public or when you're raising money or things like that people can can get very worked up but trying to sell defensive positions in postures and investments in new technology that might take a decade to realize that's much harder work so I'd be interested to hear what are some of the hardest challenges we still face to kind of solve this will unfortunately there are a lot of them. You know we've been view as has been promoting this idea of norms norms and that includes <hes> sir proportionality and not going after civilian infrastructure but the problem is it's all it's all intermingled so that there hasn't hasn't been huge progress there. If you're the only side that respects the rules like that's not we the U._S.. You got hurt a lot by snowden and wikileaks Estedat sort of it opened people's eyes to the fact that you know you may be in some other country and you may be using Google but the fourth amendment does not apply to you and you know the U._s. will suck up everything even if that means hacking Google overseas and you know depending on American tack has you know has a strategic price to it and in terms of spying you know the U._S. is really top of the line at at spying in Russia and China very good and or other countries but we were sort of like the U._S. was her left with our moral defense being think well we don't steal commercial secrets and give it to our businesses. We might still commercial secrets and use it for negotiating trade agreements or something like that but that was about it and so yeah it's worse that China has a policy of like you know stealing Cisco Secrets and giving it to away and that sort of thing but it's not an awesome rallying rallying cry. You know we're about freedom and you know we'll steal everything we possibly can and we won't help American business. You know that that's the only difference between us and them. That's not so great great there. There are a lot of really really big problems but that this book is not about that because that's not the point cult of the dead cow. It's <hes> maybe perhaps one one of the best titles ever in terms of grabbing people's attention so this is about the the oldest and most influential group of Good Guy White Hat hackers in U._S.. History they they go all the way back to the mid-nineteen eighties. They're still around today until this book they're almost all known only by their handles or pseudonyms a few of them had been outed and they all all agreed to cooperate with the book. They're using all of their real names. Sixteen real sources names right there sixteen people I named for the first time in the book all with their blessing they accomplished accomplished a tremendous amount in all these different areas not only as a group but you know on their own or one's and two's politics technology politics in the public sector private sector <hes> nonprofits the activist world and most people don't know who they are even if they actually do know a lot of the story or knew them when they were famous twenty years ago don't realize all the great things that they've done since and it's because cyber security is is a depressing. It's like a lot of people get burnt out in the field like generally they get famous only if they screw HUAPI and they get breached and some cease gets fired. I think it's really important to call out the really amazing good stuff that's been done and I also think you know a spoke before about <hes> multiple audiences for my books so there are a few I have in mind for this book one of the people coming into the field more recently that don't know this really important history sorry and the sort of the <hes> hard ethical work that went into various calls people made but another frankly is big tech the people working for Google and facebook and Microsoft where the leaders of the of those companies seem to have lost their way in the view of a lot of engineers the accent or you have rank and file engineers protesting in the streets against their own employers which is something I haven't seen in twenty years out here and the fact that we haven't seen that in twenty years means that something's different right as an industry as a whole are there any big trends runs that you cite whether their cultural or management related that are leading to this or contributing well so I mean I think a lot of it is people losing in touch with the earlier hacker spirit and you know the the guys that came up with the biggest mentions not just in security but in tech as a whole wanted to make things better <hes> for for people and the the the gizmos were means to do that. I think tech sort of got a free pass from a lot of folks for variety of reasons. It was great for the economy musgrave. The trade balance people liked having the power of an asset super computer in their pocket reconnecting with old high school friends over facebook and they didn't really think about the all all the downsides. I mean you heard like people worried about jobs getting replaced and they were they were kind of brushed off. <hes> you know oh well you know that's okay. They'll be these new great tech jobs that are cleaner and better and this you know that's the march progress and then since sixteen <hes> since two thousand sixteen. I think that's all you know like the scales of Ultra People's is that they you see that there's there's real danger and there's real problems with manipulation of people's emotions of people getting addicted to this stuff and it being a plaything for Foreign Warren powers for disinformation domestic and foreign and it's really caused people to question a lot and the answers from the companies just frankly been inadequate. You know they could see them in Congress and they're just not they don't seem credible. Moral people committed to doing what's right. It doesn't sound like they're you're speaking from the heart as much as they're just speaking from their COMMS team and legal department which is a bummer right because I think that's what a lot of American people who are watching those hearings were hoping coming to here and get a sense of like now. Don't worry like here's what we're doing. Here's why this happened won't happen again or taking these steps. You should feel confident but it didn't didn't feel like that. It just felt like we're we're GONNA do whatever even if people inside these companies and people wanting to do the right thing people were psyched to come work for Google or facebook or whoever and they're like well. This is a fun job. I'm going to get paid well because there's excellent people that were not bashing these companies by any stretch of the imagination but I think there are certain individuals though that are just maybe like pulling the companies into a very different direction. Something's going off kilter yeah <hes> or you wouldn't see this kind of this deserve bubbling. I mean this is this is a privileged workforce. Those guys and women are some of the are the major heirs of the C._D._C.. Tradition like you know the the sort of you know. What is the greatest good for the great people and how do we get there even against really hard odds? I mean the things that I I admire the most but C._D._C.. Besides just being smartest people I've ever met is that they're they're critical thinkers and there they have a sense of moral purpose and they kept leveling op when the playing field changed I mean so it's hard enough to understand what's wrong with the security architecture some piece of enterprise software <hes> particularly if you don't have access to the source code but then they're like Oh okay how do we get this monopoly software company which really has no financial incentive to build and better security. How how do we make them do that and the fact that they would come up with all these different ways to make it happen? Just is just is inspiring story that more shirt here because a lot of enterprises prices that are using a full stack of other people software just like you mentioned don't realize that they might not be able to see the source code so they don't know what vulnerabilities they're facing in a sense <hes> sometimes they do most savvy teams are probably aware this vulnerabilities or would you say they're not the big software buyers rely on third party code audits. You know basically somebody vouching. The source code says something one of the many things that these guys did is Chris Rue founded <hes> comfortable very code which allowed people to look at what the binary are doing. 'cause you know source go. Oh disease is the programs idea of what should happen. The buccaneers are what's actually happening and so it was much more powerful to be able to have access to that <hes> so that was the one one of a number of great technological innovations that these guys <hes> mostly guys one woman brought to us all and let's talk for a moment about the type of courage required because a lot the people were talking about can sound when we say these words easy to do the things that they're doing but they're also they're Immune accused the Russian government of being in goods with organized crime. I was followed around Moscow by very large people who spoke into their collars a lot. That was nerve racking you know in the U._S.. South linked <hes> two members of the Forbes four hundred to the mob over the years. You know I've written nasty stuff about China in Britain nasty stuff about anonymous and I got you know they. They came after me. He goes with the territory. I've been I get to. I'm very lucky I get to live in America and I get to <hes> I'm. I'm not in danger of being murdered. I have colleagues in overseas that have <hes> much much riskier <hes> life than I do colleagues at Burma uh-huh Pulitzer Prize but were still in jail <hes> from Portland a year for exposing with the Government of Myanmar admitted was a massacre civilians than voted soldiers. You know there are no no rights and a lot of countries and so I have a moral obligation to do what I can from here. The security folks I mean Fu for fatal system error in the heroes in the book were Barrett Lyon in American and <hes> Andy Crocker the Welsh detective that went to Russia and while we were on that together you know normally the worst thing that can happen to you. If if you're a book writer is that you get sued for libel in the second worst thing that can happen is that nobody reads your book and those were like number eleven and twelve for for fatal system error Barrett the funny thing the the great subplot in fatal system error is Barrett the guy that infiltrated the Russian cyber mob over I._R._C.. He took money from these U._S.. Facing gambling sites to set up a defense business called for electric and then one day he found himself making payroll because a guy in the parking lot in Miami showed showed up with a suitcase full of cash. Those guys were mob it turns out they were Gambino so he'd accidentally infiltrated the American cyber mob and he wore a wire. You could walkway but he wore you went to the F._B._i.. who had known from before <hes> when you're trying to get them interested in the Russians anywhere wire against Gambino's he outed himself in the book as he hadn't been needed his testimony hadn't been needed in court so we are worried about him getting whacked <hes> we're worried about andy the wash detective and getting killed by the Russians ends who had come to trust him there? The Official Secrets Act in Britain says you can't talk about a whole bunch of things and he he was talking about an investigation so it any one point in time one of us was freaking out about something in the other two were coming <hes> coming down so that was that was the last book you know there are a lot of security people especially who writing eating about brushing operations of who do so under pseudonyms for really good reason so yeah. Thanks for sharing the stories. I think that helps with context a lot so you've been a journalist for her three decades if to say how have you seen the field evolve in that time 'cause there's a lot of worry right now about things like machine learning and A._i.. Taking over journalists jobs but I'm not really worried about that. I think if anything there's a chance to empower journalists with more technology so a limb to hear your take on the issue and how you've seen the field of it is has definitely changed. I mean there's a proliferation of of sources now. There's more good journalists now than I think there has been in the past. It's just there's also so much bad journalism awesome. There are people who get paid almost nothing or in some cases nothing to produce as much content that is as I grab as possible on the other hand you know the New York Times and the Washington Post are doing really well right now because there is a hunger for analysis and serious investigative reporting one of the things is it's weird is that there are outlets do both really terrific work and cheesy. Click Bait stuff the Washington Post the buzzfeed both come to mind reporters at both places and just a lot of like silly celebrity fluff so you can't. I can't even tell you like yet. Go go to this one outlet. They're known for good soft because they might have a bunch of so he stuff too so is it depends on <hes> the beat what you're interested in some cases you have to follow an individual reporter there. Are these different models coming out so there's charity supported stuff like Propublica <hes> through benevolent billionaire stuff Jeff bezos buying the Washington Post of the Red Sox guy buying the Boston Globe nope. That's encouraging. It's encouraging that I think the sort of the metered model seems to be working where you read X.. Number Stories for free and then you know you pay a minor amount if you want more so I have faith. I think it's going to be okay. It's always been a profession that attracts more people than it can really support. At least we support to do really deep stuff. I'm super lucky that you know I wanted to be investigative journalist at fifteen and the and the only took me about twenty five years or so and now I get to do it is a problem album in the industry a lack of good assignments so if we define good assignments as doing a long form investigative piece where you're writing one thing and that's all you you do over the course of one month is a lack of assignments like that you think the major problem because people can't go as deep on a story and invest as much time and resources is are required to make it successful. We'll certainly what reporters feel like but it's expensive. The first place I worked was the Charlotte Observer North Carolina and there were <hes>. There's a newsroom of more than two hundred people and there were two investigative reporters and they were awfully good and it's not what everybody wanted to do but a lot of us did and you know the rest of us had to fill the paper with other stuff that you could sell ads around and that's the way it worked but you know that's that's kind of always the way it's been and unfortunately if if the business model starts to Creator it's often the investigative reporters that get thrown overboard. I and I and he take or comment on machine learning A._I.. That doesn't terrify me. I worked Arctic Bloomberg <hes> after Charlotte and Dow's longtime ago when most people have not heard of Bloomberg and it had when I got there there were computers writing market stories you know that would take you know the the biggest losers and winners in the Dow Jones average it. Let you know in the opening trading and write a story <hes> and send it out there. That's okay that gives the that gives. Reporters weren't time to work on more interesting stuff and when it came to call of the dead cow I'd be curious to know. How long was your the research process for this book or was it just something you you know you started a little bit of writing here and there and put the project together over the year was two years to take so is actually three years I if it was all I was doing full time? It would have taken more than a year in reality you spread over three which is fairly common. You know a lot of the the effort goes goes into serve conceptualizing it and reporting out an outline of what the book would look like in order to get a deal my advanced age my advanced mortgage. I can't write a book on SPEC back. I need like a a contract but to in order to get a contract and it was easier for me because I had written previous books that did well but you still need to submit a sample chapter in an an outline and sort of an idea of why would buy the book and and how you plan to peddle it so you know because I was still work the day job Reuters you know that's a lot of weekends and so it takes it takes awhile and what publisher did you choose to go with for the book and have you worked with the same publisher for a long time this book in the previous book. We're both about public affairs which which does a lot of high end journalism their New York. They're now owned by one of the major publishing houses it's called Shat and that's good because that means if they wanna the money behind distribution and marketing to some extent <hes> they can say small proud imprint of public affairs that is part of a big conglomerate and let's talk a little bit about Kennedy Ethos of this community and the sixteen individuals that you profiled in the book because I think that in order to understand them in their work we have to start with what's motivating motivating them because the the ethos that are driving them are not clear at a glance it evolved over time the group has had fifty people during its thirty thirty five years of existence. I'd say about twenty active at any one time so people you know some people dropped out new people came in and one of the the reasons reasons I think that they were so effective is that they're fairly diverse you know in perspective and backgrounds but they do have core shared values and so- curiosity is one a belief that information <hes> should flow as much as possible the they're not about destruction and they're not they're not about theft most of them in the early days would have cited a file an old text file called <hes> the conscience of a hacker by ethereal named <hes> the mentor and <hes> he wrote it shortly before he was arrested. Exploration is good destruction is bad. You're acidy is good and share what you know. Those are sort of like the the the core building blocks but again what I liked about these guys is they sort of had to keep upping their game not just analyze software but like you know take on performance artist you know aspects they would manipulate the media. They are not always truthful which made my job harder. The devil's advocate might say that they were just using disinformation like they'd seen many other organizations that they did not respect US disinformation. They thought okay. Maybe we can do this for good. They were one of the first to do that. Those non-governmental groups to make up really really big stories. Get it out in the media. I had to overcome my bias against that. I mean that's like immortal enemy for somebody in the business sounds horrible at the first glance and it's part of what they did and their defense of it in retrospect is that they were calling attention they were using these tactics because it was fun and they like to make fun of the serve Tackler at press but mostly to draw attention attention to real world problem so one of the reasons that the group is famous is that they invented hacktivism and to call attention to that their first target was the government of China which was censoring the Internet and so like I said the C._D._c. was kind of a big tent people who work for the U._S. government the people that hated the U._S. government but nobody like what the government was China. It was was doing to the Internet and these are people that have a lot of intimate details about what the Chinese government is doing. There was <hes> one of the things in the book shows that there was a fair amount of communication with Western turn intelligence but you know a lot of what China was doing was out in the open great firewall and you know banning certain <hes> certain sites <hes> and a lot of monitoring and surveillance so C._d._C. promoted a <hes> privacy protecting browser tour <hes> looked at what they were doing <hes> answer my because we should put a browser and to <hes> <hes> and so they Our by the cult of the dead cap then if you came in later you'd might have been that while the I started hacking the first tool I used to break into windows machines was back orifice so they got famous as has they sort of got technologically more sophisticated. They put out a famously backwardness and B. O.. Two K. is late nineties now and they did that to shame and embarrass Microsoft into doing taking security more seriously because they couldn't believe what Microsoft was saying about their products at the time writer was Microsoft. Put Internet put T._C._p.. I._P. Into Windows Ninety five which was terrific but they put in no security so is if you could get somebody to click on something you could take over their machine and criminals could already do that. What the culture dead cow decided to do was is to let everybody do that and so they put on these wild costumes they did a light show with pulsating music at DEFCON and they through CDs into the crowd that allowed anybody anybody to hack? Anybody's machine script is included and that means that more innocent people we're going to get hacked in the short-term absolutely but they figured out that the only way the best best way to get Microsoft to move off the dime was to get on television and say these crazy hackers are coming for you. What are you going to do about it and that actually set in emotion Microsoft getting way better about security so there was that and then there was the hacktivism thing <hes> which lives on in many other groups to this day ingrate nonprofits but after sort of Pekan fame twenty years ago they continue to do all these great things in different ways? We talked about the nonprofit activist stuff in the private sector. Some of them founded at stake which sent these really talented programmers engineers inside Microsoft big banks other places to tell them what they were doing wrong and gave us the people that Katy Missouri's Got Microsoft to Pay Bug bounties got the Pentagon to pay bug bounties two ethical hackers window snyder who was the brains behind windows X._p.. Service pack to which is greatly forwarded micro security <hes> later went in house at Apple and really revamped their threat modeling and Alex Stamos who went on to Yahoo and then facebook where he blew the whistle on Russian election interference in two thousand sixteen so a lot of the C._d._C.'s influences sort of who they mentored and taught and those are the people that are really steeped in big of ethical call that a lot of the younger people coming into the field now and then the third wing would be government wing the third area of influence so famously a mudge who was one of the technologically sharpest of C._d._C. went to Darpa the folks that brought you the Internet in a lot of what he you did there was classified but he did run their cybersecurity grant making program and he created something called the cyber fast track and so instead of Darpa which is the defense advanced research projects agency giving three million dollars to i._B._M.. Or five million dollars to sun microsystems or whatever to develop a secret weapon mudge arranged wjr did so that an individual hacker could get fifty thousand dollars for like really one cool idea even if they couldn't get a security clearance because of other things that they had done so for the first time it was feasible or these kind of you know out liar people who are really sharp to do something for their government if they wanted to. I just think it's so incredible edible that this small Google people against like really entrenched deep problems in the legal construct around software in financial markets geopolitics found all these these different ways to make a difference so just a quick side note for a personal question but did they help inspire in Coutel. There is a connection to ink you tell so <hes> let's see if I could get this right at at stake which was the group of serve like in the Dot Com era and the Oh Oh's where they decided to like go straight and run a business the chief technology officer there was a very very smart guy named Dan Geer who's given some really influential talks <hes> over the years and written papers <hes> about a multitude while the security the answer like big picture stuff what these guys are especially good at. Dan went on to perform the same role at inc you tell which is the intelligence agencies venture came. I'm here in the Valley <hes> even though he doesn't have security clearance he deliberately did not want a security clearance so he's he's an interesting person that came from the same sort of circles of people. Let's talk about guerrilla marketing for a second because I think for many pure technologists they're not interested in marketing or at least that's what they say but when it comes down to accomplishing something or getting getting their software products or patches out into the world you have to market it right and I think what's fascinating about the cult of the dead cow is how much earned media they generated which has to be I mean God knows how much money they generated and earned media so let's talk about some of the your favorite examples of guerrilla marketing and how they used you know no budget to get a ton of earned media well so the that's one of the surprising things when you when you look at this group is that they were masters at Ed Marketing and that they were using that for the social good good because to me yeah me when I think of like the really best marketers rolling probably work for Nike Your Kellogg's or something like that you don't think of it as like these scruffy hacker dudes in fact act if you look at the the e mails which reproduce in the book they thought about this a lot so the founder of C._D._C.. I I've outed as as a guy named Kevin Wheeler from Lubbock Levick Texas and you wound up a bunch of marketing courses he was actually very passionate about music of really interesting guy in addition to the text files in the tech world user very good marketer and a in the very early days when C._D._C. was about text files numbered the mall <hes> and then bundled the mop in batches and sent them to bulletin board operator's all over the country and because they were numbered then people would know if they were missing like I have C._D._C.. Files like eleven through twenty but I don't have thirty one forty you can collect them and people people did there are lots of things like that that they did that that sort of got them into public consciousness and because of that and because of one of their earliest members started the first hacking conference that invited the press and the cops Jojo con in Texas data attracted these serious technological minds from the Boston area and elsewhere in California and they all sort serve together and because of that the people in the loft once from Boston had early website and most of bulletin boards disappeared after A._O._l.. Netscape escape because you just browse the web he didn't need to dial up you know some random inboard because of that they preserved all the C._d._C. Textiles and so when bright eyed kids started writing about to what does this new Internet culture in the late nineties the C._D._c. role ready the grand old man. They had a lot of influence there but the biggest example is the performance art stuff at Defcon con so that's when they did the light Joe's and everything you know sort of play off their sinister hacker stuff you know in the name the cult of the dead cow supposed to be a little sinister. It's an inside joke. There's an abandoned slaughterhouse in Lubbock that you know that gave them the idea and starting with a remarkable name though that's kind of like the core of any great company your idea or movement so they got that part are checked off yeah. It's it's sort of like it's really important for some reason. If you're a rock band to have interesting hair you know vacher gupte in the good name going to be interested in it to the point where you can talk about it with somebody. That's like the hair expert or whatever Joe. This has been awesome. Thank you for being generous with your time. <hes> I'd be curious to know if you are okay with doing a bit of a lightning round here where we talk about some of your favorite books articles calls authors and generally just get a feel for what your media habits are. Give it a shot. Let's do it so are you. Listen to any podcast lately. I am not a podcast person. The reason is that I don't have have a long commute. I'm lucky by read very quickly so I feel guy can consume more information <hes> by reading digital physical. What do you prefer books wise? I love old fashioned physical books where I can dog. You're the pages of notes in the March. Yeah it appears that <hes> anytime you have a tactile object recall is better with that information so they found that out doing studies with medical L. doctors but yeah pretty interesting <hes> speaking of books any favorite nonfiction or fiction book that you're thinking about at the moment there's an upcoming book on Russian cyber-attacks called sand in worm by Andy Greenberg. WHO's another one of the stalwarts cybersecurity reporter so I have the galleys of that and <hes> I'll I'll be reading that pretty soon very cool any T._v.? Series or or <hes> shows that you like or checkout love Silicon Valley. There was actually a reference to C._D._C.. In one of the seasons there's like there's the hacker grow friend of one of the guy and one of the main characters <hes> who sends to jail at some point because he has a girlfriend says she she's five from from bovine dawn. That's right. What was the forum of for C._D._C.'s Ninja Strike Force? It was like this where C._d._C. Fans and friends friends and some of the C._d._C. themselves traded a packing tips and I think not many people know but the writers get ideas from Silicon Valley so a lot of the stories that you appear the names and some of the places have been changed but generally based on now is heavily misery research yeah which is so cool <hes> are there any up and coming <hes>
Finding Success With a Niche Product
"The the advent of Josh being for speaking suppliers in setting up websites in on the absolute stall. Carry on into Building Code Brent. If I had thought. Not Jumping. Out like just fumble around invasive Josh being helped look. Welcome to start yours a podcast by overload about what it's like to start your own thing that could be an ECOMMERCE store, a blog, an instagram account whatever your goals we've got you covered I'm elation McCormack end. In today's episode I had the pleasure of Interviewing Z. Chan who is a drop shipper who is not afraid to give all of the duty gritty details of the successes and some failures of he's drop. Shipping career as you here in this episode Z. Talks US through starting a number of drop shipping stores that didn't quite hit the mark with prophets until he discovered the nation that would make him one hundred, thousand dollars in a number of weeks. Z. is really transparent with the information that he shares and I know that if you are in the thick of it trying to find a niche product or you've just started. Perhaps, you are really in the research phase of trying to figure out what you want to sell. If anything then I guarantee you that this episode will be helpful if getting into ecommerce or drop shipping is something that interests you then I would very much advise you to visit. Dot Com we have literally thousands of blogs on the subject, as well as a fantastic youtube channel, and of course, you can find all the back catalogue episodes of Star Yours this here podcast if you have a question, a theme or perhaps your merchant who'd love to be featured on the show, we would love to hear from you or you need to do is email David all myself podcast at overload dot com and we'll be back in touch with you or now onto my episode with Z Chen from Subtle Asian treats. Are At Z. Tell me a little bit about how you got into drop shipping. What was your first because I believe you've had a number of stores like lots of people join the drop shipping and economists community they go for it and then end up changing stores Multiple Times get let's let's talk about where you started. Yeah. So I was still studying Failure of university and can exchange program to Singapore and while they may but indigenous and like on the weekends I had nothing to do with so. through the. To. That self-sustainable saw. Online you just stop. In drop shipping. as compared to other low benches show. So my fist though I started sending phone cases and when issues idea money. So at the time of the trenice slowly building up especially in Singapore Malaysia and Southeast Asian countries she as well. So I started sounding off phone cases, these multi designs and that stall ended up. Losing a few hundred ups, Denver Radio that help us I in. A lot like scam. Everywhere and brought yet but. I do feel steel like I will woking reading the night. That was on my phone that Eugene. And? I knew that if I were doing propertied, I will be able to make a success of be stall. Isn't that teaching sound like a bit of a drug hit when you get it this commenting just want more and more yeah yeah. Essentially. Yeah. That's an wash. Sits you every single time? The APP I all my current Of. The officials. As a loss on the jealous. Just everyone when you when you get to the point when the teaching and noise you doing well, we'll done you being by teaching. Okay. So you had the teaching, you had the powerful hit of the of the sale, and then what was it that made? You think this is not gonNA work. You said you lost some money. Why did you pull the plug? I always love asking this some people pulled the plug really quickly and other people that it said of drying their racehorses. Yes. So I basically just look at my face at metrics was below one I still, but I was making losses. I just put it aside for wild and build up more on then how to build a storm And then get back into the game. So I feel. That was the best way to make the most of my the test head right. So you come you cut your losses than you went back to figuring out what the next product extortion bay. Yeah interesting. So how long did it take you to then turn around and launch your next door and what was the next door? So after a Singapore ahead, half a year nets of my studies and data time I lost many also makes one was phone cases as well. But what was that stall stat I created a full. Of funky says we different categories themes in. For each phone case, for example, cases if a Benghazi as phone cases icons an well. But it made me learn how the great eight organized stole. Categories at drop downs, which makes the US, the customer process, a lot easier and more organized. And let's failed and after that I went on to create multiple stalls which also failed. I may sales by the not. mind my big break was when I was scrolling facebook. And I'm not sure if you heard of the traits, subtle Asian traits. Now tell me more about such relation traits like what are they talk about? What's the deal? Yes. So basically it's name is a name paycheck and Millions adding one or two million people in the page in Miami Miam- NABISCO put up names, specifically. To us the Asian community as Americans agency countries. So I've seen that. I saw post about a seal in Japan which has viral. Because he was around seal in. Yeah and then I went woods who express for the seal best animation a flashy of the field. Let's rewind a little bit. You found the group you saw the main you'd had these moment of like okay this seal, this little chubby round seal. This is where my money's GonNa go the new search for which is very clever and then you found so let's explain people don't know what a plush is can you explain to allison is what apply she actually is Basically. Self tied by just is often is stretchy. Is the main thing is They had big. Yeah. Yeah. So if you you go to we can actually I'm I'm really grateful that you'll happy to share your store name it subtle. Asian. TRAITS DOT COM. As soon as you hit the store, you'll save photos of the seals which are you know they are horrible I can totally say why people a snapping them up because they cookie but also really cute and Novel when you went on a really always interested in you a discussing doing business with a manufacturer and you said you went to. alyx. Press Star did you contact the manufacturer ask specific questions about these plus she's because obviously now this has become a huge part of your business but you went to know that when you first started what was the process of doing your diligence and connecting with with the manufacturer to make sure that this is good business arrangement view. So for the Basically views which. everyone to do late. Night movies. You have to look at the photo revisits goes. I believe we especially can be faked. So wasn't the ones for we use in let you look at things like these times anthropology off the products for the seal just look at the be office before we use and I. Just. Put them on my website and simple as. a genuine s all says, did you then remark you'll products back to that facebook group almost all the rules of the basement but was that you come from what any? Decide. I, was like it could have been a really good audience voice right away if they locking the them of the little little less. Gets will actually I I've actually thought of bass pro moment for us on the page. So I've see him. Shingles they've they've got the France to Genuine. Pulse of Deir Delights at the include the products in the in those lifers full of just lazing on. The product side, the building, the Cammisa Austin ready to get. Austin damning off. On their bills. Let's talk a little bit more about the progress of your store. So you found the seal it went. Well, you did seven thousand dollars in sales in how many days footing nice. A two, two, two weeks after that he died down. Yeah. Don't I. Think it was right before Christmas and I I'm not sure why by the metrics as the seals just went from. Few like five to six day down tonight zero one. FEELS, probably Christmas. And I didn't want to mess up a people who are purchasing for Christmas Bell Sites said it's just the cost like the thirty two weeks. Definitely reach Ifo business. So. During that little lull, then what did you do because there are certainly a lot more products on your page right now that I think quite popular had you come to add those products and decide which which were the the the right ones to pursue? Yes. So off the field I actually started in other stole. So I started a store selling mush products because that was my passion and electing wants. So I thought lineups the whole related to my passion. By That well because. I realized that. Don't be maybe targets impulse bias and for purchases of. Martius. Any sprouts Quality brand that brought us. So they wouldn't just by anything off. If, never seen before they will trust brands like Nike audit us. So that was one thing i. And I took that into. My back into my stove supplement treats. illegit Brenda still sending only she's. and. That was when I found the Obayashi. I can't let's before we get to Bobo you just made a really good point I just WanNa go back really reiterate what say I think it's not been mentioned on the show before but I think you are absolutely correct the impulse buying is such a good observation because I know a lot of people will buy on grants and add and I've done it multiple times we have saint something pop up that I know is a drop schieffer and I'm not I'm perfectly comfortable with buying from drop ship is but if I had more time to think about it, I probably wouldn't have gone a few times. I wouldn't necessarily going back on board it, but it is something that's a good ad. That looks great. It's. Good comments boom credit cutting of purchase the item, but it's not something that I would go back and think about a lot more so that such a great point to make the people listening if they are looking at the advertising I, suppose it's trying to make things standout and very amenable to people that just want to make that purchase on the spot. Yeah, and is really really easy like right now for me to identify drug should be at. So like the bus Calvin captures the off fee shipping I'm only and you don't really see big brands that. I I will say. Me Just credibility. If, you're injured if you're if you're actually would would admit. Discounts to if by people just come to you straight. So this is. Experimenting. So, you'll very way when you're creating your advertising not to them create these big discounts or huge markdowns raisin when they're just saying for the first time. Yeah. So I mean it's not wrong to they just don't over. Life I've will a maximum of just one. Yet for them but just a discount or just reaching but not all in the same time because it. Looks to. Scammy I would say that. Looks too much of a whole. Okay. Let's go back to Barbara Tate which some people might know it as bubble tea if they've never come across it before very popular drink in Asia and Australia, as you mentioned as well and also the imagery of bubble taste really popular before became like a thing in the last two years, people have been using the bubble tea like the victim or the image everywhere, and you mentioned earlier on the episode, you had bubble Tae phone cases that you were selling. So how'd you get to come back full circle to bubble TAE above not mike that a think you'll business so it was just a largely so I was actually in the process of just popping. into my stall one day I just saw these obt plachy allowed spence and it had like zero sales right and. By setting. So I knew that it was illustrated. So I just body on five stall and just that you will soon So just give up in in two months. Sight made a hundred thousand dollars sales and yeah that was because D-. CanNot go back and ask you a question about when you removing and adding all of those images in products to stole I. Think People Underestimate how much work is can you talk me through the process of? Importing all the firdaus end, removing the backgrounds and writing all the copy because you didn't just pull descriptions from allie express you wrote to the creative quite fund product descriptions for H. of your listings. How long did that take all? like around. The entire week so daily as Of that and let coffee where you help. The Daily everyday and. Yes. So my goal is tools like a my customer by have the same voice to the people that I'm to. Say like lentils young people vinnie Bosnians the. Question that usually girls I was about to be sexiest about. How you. Act mushy small. Yeah, it's a pretty female skewed awesome. I would definitely agree with you there. Yeah. So I had to. Dig Down Deep End this thing of fun descriptions for each up and actual of she because that was setting. And? They were just shot these pictures but the main find with the speak like a custom and your imagery is well when you sort of look at the images that you use. Obviously this is developed time but you've got images with real people in you know the you can see the product name used especially because you sell the by t the PLA she's in different sizes. You can say when the model is holding the plush consider the different size of people are aware of what purchasing it's overly BICYC- stuff. Actually, it makes such a big difference when you're shopping on your stored actually say all the different examples and The. Humidity using descriptions is really fun like I said a soul on the front page straightaway. It says you'll pictures of three tasted it says three flavors, full sizes, five hundred percent sugar, and that just made me giggle. Funny. You talking about self story Ritz Coffee I thought that just on the spot and also one thing one point of banks that. fullish upscale, really help. So you love the banners and All. That I have that made me a on my money so. A radio help the case appoint across your customers a lot easier. To just putting texting the texting not may just are you getting the photos of the plus she's with the models you taking nice photos or are you buying them from somebody told me about where you get your imagery from so I will say most of my Asia even images from xpress Eddie others are all of stuff those and I just foolish up the she's Like. The Benham, my front page. Go on the couch? Yes it's awful in all. This photoshop that been playing some shadows to make it look like a real. That's really impressive because they I suppose we described him as lifestyle photographs that not just what backgrounds you can say the product being used I think it's a really clever and something that's certainly with the exploring time. If you have it all outsourcing to five raw upward one of these websites where you can get to photoshop if you don't have the skills I think it's really worth. The investment is it looks great. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Like if you will the things that you don't even need to spend on outsourcing is is is there is radio helps in. I've learned recently is if you use cam fought, which is C. I N. v Dot Com it's an sinister invention, but it's going everywhere. It's like an online Photoshop and if you upload photos a camera, now you can remove with one click the background of the image. So you don't even need photoshop skills. You could basically image of product and hit the button and it would remove the image. So you can add it to Amazon wherever you're selling the background and it's perfectly clean without in trouble. So I didn't know that I didn't know that ten velocity will fight by Brown. So initially, I was using just full job at it took a long time to just For just one full. When I used end I used a website called tipping magic home. So we they claim that use a report Beck Russell of. Each and it won't really well for me so I just dragged Perfect yes. Well, that you also on ten bucks and hundred Fobel's clipping magic dot com. I mean what's ten dollars when you can save like fifteen hours of having to cut out photos on further my goodness I'd pay fifty bucks for that more. Yeah. They are tight times of important than money to me of US your. Bottom line. Exactly exactly. So the made a hundred grand within two months. You just found that perfect niche product that no one else was really selling. And you went with a year. So I think I was one of the first. And Leon. The, down at metrics went down because I. Was just copying medical be my ads beat might create days. You'll coffee my the of my stall in. Yes will one thing I would say is that For me it wasn't sustainable. So let's talk about the copycats because I think that seems to be unfortunately be part of the industry that people just find something and then they realize a nations really cooking hot and then other people jump on it straight away. You were very clever to find something that was not being sold very much in obviously you've made some good money quite quickly. What was it like when you first started to see other companies basically ripping everything that you're doing because you hygiene, you put the work in and you wrote the copy and it seems like it was quite an arduous task of doing that. How did it feel when you started to say these high just pop up I'd be really mad if I were you. I I was really mad at US thought but I realized being met with his off anything. So at the was basic, just use my email is email all the salsas or Obesity action on a change what they copied and if they if they didn't. If they didn't take any of those Dow. Just. Shall Device MCA on there and usually works. That's a really good point to make a store owner end that you are saying that other stores are potentially. Using copyright or? Copying your images. There are very easy means to be able to go ahead and report that to to directly to shop and generally things. Acted upon really quickly. It's great advice. Say You shouldn't sit on your hands you should make sure people people know that I'm not can take it especially if it's something that you've created says. It is frustrating when people do rip you off. You have seemed to have taken quite well as you've you've run the distance and obviously the store is still making money for you. It's still opt still running it, but you now moving on to new endeavors. Can you tell me a little bit about that process of deciding that you were going to move away from the plus she's as your mind focus and then also going into what you're doing now? So I decided to. Lola monopoly by my ab as budgets team. Once I saw that my my retail Bella when down drastically. So happens after. Two months of five, hundred, thousand dollars on she elementary studied at tanking. So I gave you a little that one or two weeks mall and but changed creative Jay Catches everything but is doing civil I decided to drop it job. All Miami up am advising is. Getting posts like instagram fees impose what? of wasting my money on with ESA just wasn't. Ryan. Right. Now, I imagine with of your my friends in doing actively. Doctrine during. Looking at home brand and I will say that excuse that the from shaking to stall shopping the if my adventure interesting, we do here lot of stories about merchants who have done really well, withdraw shipping and commerce and who have been. Taken that into product development I suppose it's such a natural natural movement I for you. Because you you understand the manufacturing, you understand the shipping you've got the customer service stuff, Dan you know how to build a store. It's all there just actually developing your arm product. Tell me a little bit more without giving away too much. I know it hasn't launched yet, but tell me more about working with manufacturers because that active way I mean, this is the time we're all sitting and active wear on I. Think I've worn properly hands for weeks. What is it that? has drawn you to this product area is it because of Covid or is it something? You're interested him? I was just something that I'm interested in. So My Ville, a all of us are spotty people love hospital end. Like the active in the street. Just GonNa go. From in the future in will definitely is a booming say so. actually studying off locally. Because in Malaysia is not a resident by the Activi- brands and then this. Really academic brands, for example, Nike does cost a ton so. Why are we doing? You're talking to be Offering cloudy. Active Products at an affordable price. So that isn't any is nature for this so I feel. Like going into is specific. Demographic people are looking for Claudia audible effect products. That's right. So you've really found that the the A gap in the market there for that sort of product. That's fantastic. During the research. Phase by The skills the. Rush being vice on bully speaking suppliers and setting up websites all the APPs on the stall. They carry on into building my current brand right now, and if I if I had started started. Out like just fumble around invasive hold on find just. She'll be. Coming into stuff so Josh being helped up. Yeah. I think it seems to be the stories that we face you. So often our people really go for it like you have have learned a lot of really valuable listens very quickly and then have been able to take those those skills and put them into other stores or at ventures that they've really fast tracked because of that. Sorry. Yeah, it's it's it's a it's a very fast moving business but if you can make it work, it can be really really satisfying. Have you thought of selling subtle Asian traits just getting rid of it, putting it on the marketplace and making money at that way No I think it will sell it cost afternoon so much time at I. Want to keep you light. Of with me forever like. Hot will add foot yes. So I wanted to be and this give you the weeds and someone Who might just that? RENA store give it. So it's your first shipping baby. That might be a lot of money I get it. You don't want to give away kids. That's fine. Baby giveaway. And I'm sure it's still making his money. So that's not a bad thing. Yes. even though I stopped at running ads, I'm still getting on. Like every single day. So maybe like two. Day. So. Yes. It's deputy passive. Yeah. That's fantastic. Known can complain about passive income. Z. This has been really insightful. Thank you so much for sharing all of the info being really transparent with it because I think it's really interesting for people now to be able to go to your sought and check out what you are talking about and also exploring what you've done with it. It's been really great. Thank you very much for your time and. They'll also be an below dot com blog all about your journey and I know Alana lovely colleagues working on it right now, and she's got lots of metrics, spreadsheets and data coming. Will be able to explore all of that. If. Thank you. So Washington shot and is a great. Speaking oh that's fine. Thank you. Thanks so much again to see for sharing all of that information and. Transparent open with how he made he stole work and also how he found the products and really got into the idea of finding that one nation product and then expanding on the plus she cries was something that obviously worked really well for him. It's fascinating to hear how people discover their niche products and then of course, how they market it to make really work for. Them we have new of the show coming out on Monday and Tuesday each week if you would like to be featured on the show or you have a theme or topic that you'd like to suggest that we cover then please do get in touch email us podcast at Opel Oh dot com we would love to hear from me and to next episode we'll see you soon.
"Hello I'm doing a new ward you a new order here now and I'm going to speak to a bit now and talk to you a bit about the churches and and <hes> <hes> I saw as I said I sought it out with the churches by totally leaving one fellowship which was Newark New Apostolic Reformation Fellowship and I perceived it simply to not be a God. It's just it's just Asta not of God and then there's another fellowship that I that I keep in contact with because I get food there and a member of it so but it's not <unk> information but what what's happened to me is is that I think we should take seriously the fact that that we should not fellowship with a brother that is called a drunkard and I personally you know when I've I have people trying to contact me brother that is a drunkard crowded trying to contact me where I live and local and <hes> you know I have nothing against people in such a way that the but what I found this as I said that they don't have the the normal behavior of the of the kindness highness you know <hes> you know it's rather an extortion method contact. They're not they're not nice and I'm marvelous. I marvel at the amount of drunkards who considered the them to have the right to be to be assholes towards men. You know you know just the behavior of these people who are an alcohol who have they you know they don't have this normal kindness in them in the niceness in the personality and I think I think basically it is a spiritual thing now. I'm not you know owner. Put everyone everyone say every respect is but some people four but in a way that they tried to make it impossible aw you to say no show nice and kind they just use you and abuse you but there's a way to deal with this and it's too <hes> do not give out your phone number. You know I think <hes> and then there is a lurker stalker here on Youtube who is a Christian drunken and who who basically sensors me and say I'm not allowed to say anything negative about anyone in the entire world that is a Christian drunker and that's another story. I'm not going to go into detail about that so anyway. When I I get food from church at once weekend when I get out of there I can't get get a piece of mind really until I listen to this English man who talks about the churches his and he talks about that we should go wisely walk wisely towards them that are without and I think that means that we should not throw pearls to the peaks because they will turn around and venue you know and it's just the way so I think it's <hes> it's tough that this <hes> the the things that happening churches do you is at the moment? I've been able to remove myself from the churches. What happens yeah while they come at you? They think it's good when you remove yourself but then they're not nice when you're there when you don't remove you know so. It's like basically as I see it. I'm not saying that everyone in the church is bad or anything like that but the short as it is set up today he's a trap. It's a very dangerous trap because <hes> now very dangerous trip. It's a very perilous trip there in the church and the trap is like it's like walking like yeah. It's like the very dangerous the traps in the churches and how should we deal with this. You know I don't think we should deal with it. Just just by being reserved the right just manager served or we should be reserved towards some think about what we say and be resolved. Don't give out phone numbers and things like that because that's how generally get more contact when you start to give out your phone number your exchange phone number and then suddenly they think you have the right to do all sorts of things too. Don't they trace phone numbers. You know that's something I recommend commander and <hes> so some doing this little. Would you know again and about the troublesome churches and I'm not saying as I said I'm not saying that these churches are you know that everyone in this church is bad and I'm not saying I have a solution either because the weight setup this is happening in churches general there are some words some better absolutely to be should absolutely remove ourselves from two to three Christians because they are lethal <hes> but <hes> the law of the things in the Bible tells us what happens in churches this is not biblical and we have that with the six since into one in five that we're not eat will in the judges. I don't think to even allowed to call the drunk coulda drunk on its four indicate reform <unk>. You're not even allowed to say that so the churches have become a place where Satan rules and <hes> as that it is a dangerous place absolutely especially for Christian I would say the church is less dangerous for for an atheist or someone who worships Satan Denver Christian because Satan. It's one is designed to kill the Christians. Oh and that's how he gets to people through exchanging phone numbers. You know don't actually phone numbers with them. That's the way to sort it out. I'm more when I see how how some of these these people these drunkards are wants to use you so other people based on on something how they can kind of. I mean if vials phone number of someone it's either because I need some specific service. You know you need the phone number but then set up why you need the phone number. Loyd is because of that town you generally want to befriend with them and then you do not after using them abusing because you know L. something about them. Oh chasing them. Whatever no you definitely want to be with him but this is what I mean these troublesome weeds people contact vacuum and they don't want to be friends with you in fact they just use that as a way to to destroy you or to rise above you you you know they have your contacted us dark in your life doc tablets some churches filled with people who have been able to make use of it and the argument that they have the right to the way founded? This edit can be lethal. I mean can be very dangerous otherwise it would just be it was just about some discussion sooner or something then wouldn't matter but what I found what shows you cannot really be killed destroyed in this buildings or by giving out phone numbers and getting them to your home. What I mean is that they're not your your friends and they they should be that bothers me? I usually food there once a week but it basically works like this that if you don't have enough status in the church and you come there. There's someone there who thinks he has more status than you doesn't have to be state as both things he has worked harder for the church then you you and then he's GonNa Abuse You you know and try to destroy you and for that. He needs your phone number so it can show look. I know this guy don't don't buy but his problem is he then they can say I know this guy and this is the abuse technique. If you don't have the phone number then you just speak against people. You shouldn't have anything do but if you got his phone number you know him our C.. Were then it's it's different you see then so that's why they're so dangerous coaches you have these people is actually Babylonian hierarchy there and what that means they said some people do certain thinks there and then they just are trouble they have. They have problems you know 'cause how could they ever get peace of mind in that building and they have they start spending a lot of time there so obviously they are just walking monsters in the sense that they they have no peace they have no peace whatsoever but they are contributing to the building and you're not contributing to the building so then you have to be there little abuse victim. They have the right to abuse you know because they not feeling well L. and they notice that you're you're kind peaceful and your <hes> you don't have trouble and they their their life is a mess and they contributing to Babylon so now the need your phone number so they can abuse you legally basically that's it because if you've got some phone number you certainly can come to the door. If you can come to the door you can start. Doing you see you see how it works. You know through so-called friendship ship you have the right to and this is I read about this is maybe not Christian but I noticed I read about stalkers and how to deal with stalkers and in o our listen to video about stalkers stalkers and it says that the basic method to deal with stalkers is. I don't have anything to do with them because if you have some. I think that because if you have something do with them they can claim it's not your they didn't stalk you. Are they your friends you see so so basically don't have any relation to them. Don't care about your phone number. Yeah things like that and the second second thing you do. stalkers might put up security cameras and things like that and your saw inform them that you don't want them to contact you that says you do and the third the third or fourth the things you do with stalkers is what what did mention there in the video that you might have to contact the police because if they do criminal stuff against you <hes> but I tried to as I said I try to not do that because it says by we shouldn't contact the police so I don't do that so I tried to sort things out as the Bible Way and what I found with with stalkers overseas that they've had they been drunkards and all this talk is I've come in contact with have been drunkards and <hes> you know they might have been drinking. They're not feeling well and then they come by a number of because they're not feeling well. Why don't you stop drinking them? You know and so in the Bible tells us not even to eat with junkers so is quite clear we shall not fellowship with them and so on but what I noticed just is that what what drugs can do just talk to them. What happens they say something and you reply and I replied as a teacher? I replied trying to trying to basically help this person right you know help them right. Teach them and it says in the Bible be knock you many monsters because they will face the great tacoma damnation or something they will be judged harder monsters and I think that means that that we we should I disarmed. We shouldn't teach if you try to teach drunk or not drunk goodness you might just get <hes> he's fruit in the end which is not saved. You know which many of these drugs are not some can be saved drunker but some are not in the churches there are and that's why it's interesting. You said it doesn't say in one Corinthians Five. It doesn't say a drunk could that he saved <music>. Don't eat with them. Don't even eat them or something. No it says some of that is called. A brother is who is a drunkard and called the brother. That's interesting the wording there colder brother. It doesn't say Isa true brother or something like that no older brother who said well. That's anyone in the churches any man in the churches that is a drunkard. Is that fits too you know and doesn't have to be saved. You know it doesn't matter you know he still called the brother. If it is in a visa church that you go to you know so but it's it's enough that he professes to be a believer in Jesus Christ then he is called the brother who is drunk then we are not to eat with him and they can be very forward and it can be very difficult to get rid of to to to not do their will because but I'm not gonNA give out phone number because they don't want someone wants my phone number and he doesn't say why he wants my phone number. Either you know what I realized is that probably he needs <hes>. I'm probably not GONNA go into detail here. I'm not going to I WANNA be weighed about it. This is not about the person I don't want to <hes> you know it's not about the person I'm not against the persons you know just try to find a way to to <hes> to <hes> these people to have a factual with these people. They're so difficult. You know they own your account can come to your door. How do you deal with these people? You know <hes> if they contact you I give an example. I noticed someone are no. I don't know for sure if this person is drunk but someone said he was he he was into gene <unk> and this person contact another person and had fellowship with him and then eventually he got angry at this other person eventually he go down at this other person for being Lord Shipper or having been teaching lordship salvation and you know this is so point if you contact someone John and continuously grew to that person and then he's angry at that person for being cheaper I am you know why don't you just learn your place and go stop going. There were stopped contacting that person because this. This you know the general idea of the sociopath he he comes to you and then he blames the victim so he comes to the person and then he abuses person and blame civic the victim. That's the sociopath personality and most people can become sociopaths. It's it's not a PSYCHOPATHIC sociopathic. Someone learned disorder. You could say it's a learned technique to abuse people and it happens through relations hunts because they can't really do much. They don't have your phone number kind of you. See what I mean so so what you do. The first mistake you do is make friends with them. They tried to make friends with you. You think they make threat to make friends with you because they want to be your friend. The real reason they want to make friends with you is because they can't abuse you legally if if you don't if they don't have your phone number once they can claim Oh this guy's a friend of mine. <hes> you know you know he welcomed the and then you you know I don't know something wrong with him. You know remember talk to this person you're and then they give a lot of detail to showing though yeah he does seem to know this guy so you see how they worked. You know I know this guy and they talk and talk and talk and then you're they got Gotcha kind of some that you don't have the right to complain about them and you don't have the right to live without them. Either you know but this is something we have to learn to to to to handle in a positive way and I think that the most important thing is don't give out your phone number to them. I mean if you have an abusive who comes to who who suddenly says is visitor to where you live then then guess you have to to learn not to <hes> to just walk away. Learn to walk away this are I didn't know how to do this kind of I was. I was in trap of this and I think I think it has to do with this fact that <hes> got to realize that you're giving people the right to abuse you when you don't walk away when you do give out your phone number when you do welcome people who come to you when you talk to people who ask you questions you don't have to talk to people ask your questions and this is important thing to learn the power of silence. You know how extremely powerful it can be to be silent against a person who lost your stuff and look at them. If you can do it not everyone can do it and some people you know and that's I think prayer is a very good thing you pray come. You can pray. I prayed for half a year ones that the person that that the the the the abuse would stop that a person did to me not mentioning any names and it was enormously powerful when I met that person after half a year that person had you know totally totally disappeared after that and that person suddenly realized that that that person had that she had problems or people are not more it was more like the people around her realize that she had problems because basically it is my. Why can't you make your spiritual existence and your your whatever independent of me you know? Why can't you exist independent of me because that's the case with with the abusers they called exist independent of you because you so they don't have the sun in then they don't have the sun you know and I continuously been thinking how I can how I can <hes> because I've had problems during the years you know am before I had very deep problems before I got saved in September of two thousand sixteen when I go to come to faith in Jesus Christ and got saved and and also became a disciple of Jesus Christ and before them I had enormous trouble with people and I think the basic trouble I had was that just it's total lack of guidance guidance regarding <hes> regarding my life life you know and that's what the seed remains in them the he that he that is born of God cannot seen cannot commit sin? It's because the seed remains in him. What does that mean? Will I see it as you know. The light remains in the light to see Jesus Christ the light the way in the truth and the way in the life you know the life and also he is the light also so the light is it gives you revelation this ship and the problem with senior is that he <hes> that is not saved is that he doesn't get revelation of the truth and that's really what would you know gets people deeply into scene. It gets people totally doing things they shouldn't. It's not really <hes> what did release is that they just become totally dumbstruck because of they don't get the revelation nation of the truth so what I mean by that is that even the Christians do sin when they do send the seed remains in them so they get the revelation of the truth as they do saying they don't commit sin therefore they they don't <hes> so so as the holy ghost since they are sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Ghost the Holy Ghost will reveal everything to them they actually when they do seem they don't fall. We'll into this total darkness over of an understanding you know I I've been in that. I've been in this total darkness. I've been in twice and and <hes> <hes> once when I was younger and also once when I was older here and there wasn't around two thousand thirteen or so when I was the total darkness it's like it's like you really the darkness has been put on your is is like you've been blindfolded. You can't see anything and you know. Do People don't help you when you're blindfolded and that would bothered me the more most people didn't help me when I was blindfolded that was as being blindfolded. Basically I was had been blinded and doc that's when people do stupid things when they blinded because it when you can't see you act stupidly so when the seed remains in you you get tribulation and you never really get blinded you see and so that's the power of Salvation Power <unk> who son ship and <hes> <hes> you know and but there's a question when it comes to these people I think that the most first thing we should do regarding people's to disown if they're saved or not and I think this man this drunkard could that I'm that I'm not going to go into detail but basically what I'm saying is that if someone is not saved you shouldn't speak about the things of God with because he's a then they were going to turn around and try to renew. This is in the sermon on the Mount. You know so we should follow this. It's not like people say well you did. It's not nice to do that not nice. Oh my God you know the are You Cooling Gilo Jesus Christ. A liar sermon on the mount is one of the most important sermons ever preached and people don't take it for they don't believe in it and I myself. I'm a victim or Ama- have gone through. Try to be nice to people and I'm the teacher kind of personalities. I tried to teach people. I think that's why I fall. Someone actually said that you stop trying to teach people you wouldn't get in trouble so much because basically when I tried to teach people that's when I say things and when I say things they turn around and tried to rent me so basically you shouldn't speak to people about <hes> started things and that's what the Bible say. The Bible doesn't say that teachers will however teachers. If you're a teacher shower then you can speak to the pigs and they will become a sheep doesn't say so I know doesn't say like if you're so nice that you teach the truth to the pigs then then <hes> sermon amount with be rewritten for you and you will actually turn them into sheep in Oh no it doesn't say so. That's what the beautiful beautiful things that it's about the water got. The border guard is A._B.. Seventeen sixty nine which is the authorised version the addition given out in seventeen sixty nine which is a King Games Bible and in this. The Water Garden and a Jew runs <hes> explain to me or said about the the word of God. We don't try to explain the word of God. It's like the Stars in Heaven they they're at we trust that they're true and that's I think how we should relate to the word of God because otherwise you start adding and removing from scripture and I've I've had this ever since I I think it was because I tried right to be monster. I I did the mistake of trying to understand the Bible and trying to explain the Bible and when you try to explain the Bible you're adding or removing from scripture you know no and that's very serious it says in the Bible that you will either be removed from the book of life or you will you will you will <hes> SA- call call all the diseases mentioned in in in the Bible you know and pains and sufferings so it's very serious thing to add remove from scripture and that in the Bible so that's why we just trust the Bible it's not. It's not like we trusted. It's like <hes> things are written in stone when things are written in stone we don't <hes> we don't go around and say well. Maybe it's not like that. You know well actually can be thinking in Brittany stolen. They'll be wrong but my point is that eighty seventy six the guide you have. It's the only guy you have. You should not have any other guide. It's the only guy you need and I recommend people people can listen into the King Games all your Bible during the nights and on high myself have you can have a dawn during the night that a low volume not high but just low volume almost on on hard herbal hear Abo- unhittable table and you can have a dorm there. Let's just go during the night and a dozen is not expensive either. I've noticed that the if you buy one of these radios with have the option of using a U._S._B.. Stake stake memory you can do that. They are FI. What's you know total total end and you fi- what's so so these <hes> radio if you start using big stereos you can you know if he has to have a radio can have it on it? Won't it won't cost you anything really because you can have a computer on but if you use a computer it's GonNa cost you a bit because a computer takes more energy so what I did was. I bought this little radio which has a U._S._B.. Stick we can use your speaks in S._S._D.. Cards as memory and then you just use those you know and so so that's something I recommend av seventeen seventeen sixty nine to stick to the to read it and you know I think that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ and and I think one good way to understand salvation. It's just by faith really you can't understand it. It's nothing you need time to stanton about the simple but think about this <hes> shy and can get saved and for shied to get saved. It doesn't call be complicated so this repentance from sin is simply not the way the Gospel the Gospel is simply faith in Jesus Christ. Now people can have different versions of the Gospel <hes> <hes> one worship of the Gospel is one version of the Gospel is <hes> yeah that's interesting. We should establish grace by in grace. You know so one way you can <hes> if you have a drunker once your phone number one way maybe you can do it. I found a good way eight to deal with people <hes> by say something like this to to to to <hes> say some. I can give out your phone number but I don't want visits to my home and you can S._M._S. me. He if it's something you know so so that's one way to to sort it out because what I found with doing out full numbers it's good if we can NBC civilized and still working relationship with people. There are things that can be good with you know we shouldn't <hes> shouldn't be nasty or mean or or whatever and and how do you deal with this and I think we can't take for granted that people so so you can. You can give out your phone number what I do with my phone number. I do like this. I have this I've done this started doing this with my phone. It works much better. I know just a very old woman <hes> she saw eighty plus and she does this with her phone and what I've noticed with older people saved around safe is they've learned to deal with life in a good way and they can have this <hes> methods that work and she does this with her phone. She <hes> she <hes> she doesn't <hes> all answer. If if she doesn't know who's calling so you basically you have to be one of her on her name phone lists nameless to to to be able to answer to obey before tall answer you know and the so basically so that's basically it. You know you what I do. Do what I do with my phone. Is that if someone calls me and I don't know their phone number someone that I don't have on my list of people that I know then. I don't even get a phone signal. You know it just totally silent and I see the off towards someone has called me so I don't even I wouldn't get draws to pick up. The phone and that's I think is a very good method to deal with people you know because there are salesmen there are coastal people so learn to to not <hes> <hes> all answer unless you know the phone number and then I then I look if I if someone is called Mac and look on the Internet to see who it was calling me but and and also you know so so you don't <hes> get into all of this there have been times when people have contacted me and I notice off the road. If I had replied I would have been better position station now because people some people will contact you. They developed a method that works. If you just answer and then they win in the end you know will win. You have to work a lot to to deal with them because they yes troublesome but if you don't answer you win you know so. That's what I realized. Don't what I realize. Don't even use a silent ringtone. It's called the silent ringtone on people that call call me that I don't have on my phone list as friends so I wouldn't even know they call me until authors where good way to deal with people so so maybe I can be thinking about. Maybe you can give out your phone number to Christian drunken but but you don't but you say I don't want visit to my home and then you don't pick up the phone if they call you you know something and because it could be can be good to be able to call to S._M._S. each other. They're all kinds of stuff going on and if you can semes- people then what I'm what I'm saying here. How should we relate to people this isolation? No contact it says in the Bible with his sixteen which wouldn't be fellow shipping with the six seniors are either lacquers and <hes> you know these people and you know. We shouldn't be fellow shipping with them but that's they want something. I'm back. I don't know how to deal with these people. I think the best way is I said he's to knock you out your phone number. If you know to start with that that's the person doesn't acid fifteen to the Bible voc someone you should have contact with yeah because you know then. Don't give out your phone number. I think that's that's <hes> but but you will hurt people heal our heart like maybe they will get prideful probably and get bruised ego will be proved store them and also you might be able ever get their phone number off towards because you've done that you know. Ah Yeah says difficult to know how to deal with people but I just found that this <hes> drunkards are trouble. Uh trouble for people you don't Wanna be their friends and that's why I think the the Bible is is so clear it says don't even eat with them. We can go there can pick up my bible and read a bit. We can go to one Corinthians and five here so I'm not gonNA give out my phone number. What what I thought about a good way to deal with this is that it can be good if people can send you S._m._S. or something? More people can actually send me S._M._S. if they look at my phone number number anyway but when you give us when you give out your phone number your opening up to fellowship and to that they come by your house and all sorts of things and it's happened to me now you just enough you give out your phone number and you have them standing after your door for twenty minutes Nisa being angry and holding against you on everything you know in all sorts of things and they contact your father whatever they do all sorts of saying why because you gave out your phone number to them so let's see here. Let's read the entire chapter five one Corinthians fight. It's reported commonly that there's fornication among such fornication as it's not so much as named among the others that one should have his father's wife year puffed up and have not all the more that he he that has done this deed might be taken away from among you for away. Rarely is absent in ball but present in spirit have judged already as though I were present concerning him that has done this deed then someone Houston very worst against and said like you don't even have to talk to them. You can judge them without talking to them. So if a brother if you know he's a foreign kate that you don't have to tally my. I won't have fellowship with you is he. Because <hes> Sasso here so it's interesting here and that someone who believes the word of God and uses Paul as in the name our Lord Jesus Christ when you are gathered together and my spirit with the power or Lord Jesus Christ to deliver such onto data for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Your glory is not good. You know you're not that little lever limits the whole lump so we shouldn't be glory in you know being friends with these people fellowship because people want glory and say that Oh I'm so nice to these people that other people don't care about Oh they so self righteous and proud and they're such ferry ceased because they don't make friends with these people know it doesn't say so in the Bible is this your glorying is not good no not at a little even leaving the whole lump porridge out there for the old even that you may be a new lump as year or on leaving for even Christ our Passover sacrifice for us therefore let us keep the feast not with old leave a neither with the leaving Oh Melissa wickedness but with the unleavened bread of sincerety and truth I wrote onto you in an apiece not accompanied with phony caters yet though Dole together with our fornicated of this world or with covetous or extortion or Leedle actors for then must you need out of the world so he's saying the air that if someone is not a believer then you can then you can have company with them so if someone is a phony catering as fornicated with the let's say he's <hes> having sex with the six women at the time and all these done all these kinds of raped women and he's been <hes> he's drinks a Lotta whiskey risky at the same time and take drugs and his <hes> you know he's doing all kinds of malaise and wickedness then you can have company with him as long as he's not a believer in Christ but if if he is a believer in Christ and US just to you know justice a drunkard or need latter then you cannot so you see the importance here that it's all about if it's someone who's quarterbacking and we're going to go with a rotary unappeased not accompanied with fornicated yet not all together with the former kids of this world or with a covetous or extortionists or with it letters for that musty needs go out of the world but now written onto you not to keep company if any man and that is called a brother be a fornicated or covetous or either latter order Raila or a drunkard or an extortionate with such one not to eat so this is what the beautiful things about the word of God here it says any man it's mattocks Manno also so this is not about women any man that is called a brother and that means it doesn't have to be saved doesn't have to be a safe person buddy. Someone who's called the brother is clearly stated here for what I had to do for what have I to do to judge them. Also that are without you know so we don't judge them that do not judge them that are within but then the adore without God therefore put away from among yourself that wicked person and this is what happens when you come to churches churches are often what I've found with charts this quite interesting something. This is something I've been thinking about bowed before. Now you notice here that that drunkenness is enough of a I'll seen here that we shouldn't <hes> you know how company with them but in churches generally drunkenness drunkenness is not a serious thing they might react against it but what I found that something they take take a bit more seriously now maybe not maybe I think in churches anything goes really as long really they're very <hes> tolerant would seem short but anyway we see here that <hes> and then chapter six if we go on reading here <hes> chapter six is about this that we shouldn't go to do with the brother and we can read as quite short also one Corinthians six there any of you having a matter against another go to law before the end yesterday not before the saints. Do you not know that the saints shall yards the the world in the world shall be judged by you. Are you on worth it to judge the smallest matters so here we see that because some people don't judge don't coach don't judge and then if you against people who say don't judge they can actually try to destroy you and I think that some of these people say this. They have something on your think. They have something on you so they basically gonNa tell now now. Oh this person has dot can abuse him forever and he's schmoozing. We see doesn't have a hand and he's just my little yes sayer forever now because I have something on him and I'm GonNa just telling don't judge or basically you know and say this. The the the tongue speaks life and death so basically if you judge you're going to be judged on you know and it's not it's not equal measures there so if you just little they come with the big club an utterly tried to destroy stroll you know and then you have to sit there and you basically in pieces you know and you're supposed to to to forgive them and work. You can't forgive them but obviously you're supposed to continue having contact with them also and that's what bothers me that that they're basically there are people without natural affection in the church in some charges and this is two Timothy Three Christian. I knew you know he was when the without natural affection if you go into they not gonNA treat you as a human being you know to them. You are into human being you know. Do you know that the saints shall yards the wall than if the world shall be judged by you or your unbelted to judge the smallest matters. Do we should be able to judge the smallest matters and this is the point. I'm say people say don't judge then so if someone if something happened that you know is does causes you to to snap function. Stop functioning spiritually. You should be able to judge the smallest matters and I I think God love judgment and Justice you know so. I realized that if you're a brother you have the son in you and you can't judge the smallest matters. There's something wrong wrong with you isn't it. I'm not saying that wrong as in that you can't be a son. I'm saying that either. You're babe so you haven't learned yet you know but you have something to learn. Judgment is something that God wants you to be able to do with temperance not in a way that that you cause trouble but you should be able to judge you know we should be able to judge the smallest matters and it says in the Bible somewhere that he had to do stuff right in the small things also those right in the Lord Sakes. Thanks and see if we can if you can judge smallest mattress you'll be able to judge angels as well so no. You're not that we shall judge angels how much more things that pertain to this life so <hes> we should be able to judge when I realized that we should be able to judge Emmet should not take people to court you know. This is something that came. After I realize the thing about two to three Christian I should be able to deal with the world you know in a constructive instructive good manner and for that to happen. I realized I can't really be parked. Be An active part in these churches because when you report in the churches you are subject to their enders and. There you know the yeah the church basically you're part of of the of the Church and and you don't have the right to judge there because if you do they might even say you you know you don't follow our rules on you basically just there to you know it doesn't work that way yet. You have the the right right to judge in the church so basically you can't be part of the I've sought that out by by. I'm having a limited contact with torture. If then you have judgment though things pertaining to this life set them to judge who are the least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wise man among you. You know I think God hears beautiful as it says because you know in the churches there are often like this they don't it doesn't work you know and I think <hes> some say can be kept him because the spirit of error skin controlling the churches and then you can't fix it but still we notice that it doesn't work and we but we should be able to judge the smallest matters and and these two statements should be enough for you to get out of the problem and you you should be able to judge the smallest mattress and and and what I noticed is that if you try to judge the smallest matters in the church you will end up having to leave the church or or at least have very limited contact attacked with them because <hes> they don't tolerate that you're not allowed to judge their. I speak to your shame you sit so that there's otherwise minimum you no no not one that shall be able to judge between breath but brother goes to with brother and that before the unbelievers so this this is the result them if you get in conflict with the churches with a saddened scary thing is that brothers in Christ is going to try to take you to court for it. You know now therefore there is actually a fourth among you because you go to one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourself to be defrauded? Now you do wrong and defraud and that your breath no you're not and this is <hes> you know the two Timothy Three Christiane threatened to do this to me and what I discovered this he they they don't have the same <hes> brethren the brethren can be you know the members of their church or something. It's it's not the body of Christ it some thing it could be related to people who are contributed me financially to the charge and to their salary or whatever which is actually mentioned in two Timothy Three that we should have charity that that's how we can avoid the two timothy three periods times but you know the the point is still with two or three Christians that if you don't turn away from them they go connor continue to suck you dry and get all your money and so that's why it says even for those who have shared to you we should turn away from the two three Christus. No you're not that the unrighteous not inherit the Kingdom of God be not deceive neither four notice the unrighteous so he says if you go to Lou with a brother you know you're unrighteous. He says that here be not deceived. Neither fornicated the daughter the dodgers nor adulterers nor effeminate effeminate. I think is interesting also 'cause I found that I got saved through being bold. I was bowled when I got saved. Maybe stupid in a bowl I I'll be thinking about that time when I could save them. I have to say this. I count everything as loss for the knowledgeable. Oh Jesus Christ and I I live <hes>. How does he say says like this? Something like dying is gain and leaving is uh is is Christ something like that. You know that's how you live. Once you get saved dying his gain living his Christ you know what else is there and that's also ideal world. Today I deal with the world this way you know the world is out there and sometimes you can feel that you know it's totally evil nasty abusive and everything but then you don't love them you don't love the world you love Christ and then you away you set the part you know you're not there in their world and you have a direction and you have a purpose in life you have Christ Christ and that's all there is there is nothing more and <hes> be not deceived neither case nor dodgers nor a doctor's note effeminate nor abuses of themselves with mankind northeast nor covetous no drunker norovirus nor extortionist shall inherit the Kingdom of God so he said you know what he's doing here. What the what the word of God is telling us here is that these people will go to low with breath rim? He's saying that they are like all of these extortion are survivors drunkards covetous thief's abuses of them south with mankind effeminate adulterers the dodgers foreign caters you know he's saying they're just just the same you know and that's what I discovered with these people they're not saved the sign of that. Someone is not saying you know that they wanna take someone to court that his brother and such were some of you but you are washed but you are sanctified but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our got or things are low for onto me but oh things are not expedient or things loffer for me but I will not be brought under the power of any meat for the belly on the belly for for or meat but card shall destroy both eat them so basically what I want to say about the giving after number two brother is that I I see a point in being contactable by people if it this you know that that can be point in the sense that you know I don't know but he he basically if you understand that person that is giving out your number can mean something more. Are you know that they have a purpose having your number that you don't want then. You shouldn't give out your number to them. You know you should know why they want you number. I but Gotcha destroy both Ethan them now. The ball is not for fornication nation but for the Lord and the Lord for the body but God has raised up the Lord and we'll also raise up us by his own power. No you not your body's are the members of Christ searchlight then take the members of Christ and make them the members embers Auburn Harlot God forbid so he is talking about if we have sexual relations with <hes> with a prostitute I think but this could also mean consolidators that spiritual adultery or spiritual fornication more. No you not that he which is going to a harlot is one body for two says he shall be one flesh but he that is joined onto the Lord is one speed free fornication yeah. Are you still seems to be talking about people having <hes> sexual relations with prostitutes and then going to church you know and this APP this. I've seen cases of this. <hes> <hes> I heard about one pastor he <hes> <hes> he went somewhere for a week or two they go to vacation to someplace in the sex tourism and they have sex with women there you know and then they go back to their congregation. You know <hes> so all flee fornication ever seen that Amanda with is without the body but he that could meet this fornication seen as against his own body and this is this is <hes> what is so important because people a lot of people think in auto unsaved people think that fornication somehow scoring. It's like scoring school. You know your your price Hunter Price Center. I shot an out and then our shot a beer and now I saw lion and elephant and they become more and more think they great during greater and it's a bit like that with some phony caters they all I managed to get her bed and her and that woman and I you know I might go to women in Russia in bed and you know I've had sexually with women in China and in you know I know so much you know I I'm so great. You know that's that's the talking lost sinner. He doesn't understand it says here he that commits fornication seen as against his own body. You know he's own body. You don't want to see in against your own body and some people say this just it means having a Condo U._c._l._A.. Call Him but I think that actually there's a spiritual thing going on as well here so if you're if you're you know having sex with prostitutes I think actually they they. Something is not just about balch condoms here. Does I think that God is true. The scripture his true even if you use a call them you'll be sending against your own body. You know what no you're not that your body is. A temple of the holy goes to which is in you which you have God Andy are not known for you are bored with a price therefore glorified God in your body and in your spirit which are God's so our spirit is God's. You know we shouldn't glorify you know God in our body say Christians can act differently than unsaved onset. Christians can make mistakes.
"I'm James Brian Smith. Welcome to the things about podcast. You're listening to episode Fifty Gate if you missed the pilot episode or this is your first time listening. This is a podcast from what we call mind discipleship. It's a podcast for those who want to set their minds on on things above so in the book hidden in Christ. I wrote these words when it comes down to it. Living the Christian life is simply a matter of where we set our minds. Greg Boyd Loyd said Mine Discipleship is the most important discipleship of all. And that's why we do this podcast because it is a real challenge to set your mind on things above. There's so many things that distract US pulls away. There's a lot of things below the kind of get in the way and grab our attention. So we're doing this podcast because it's ah attempt to say let's let's every week have some kind of thought from above some idea some concepts narrative that would be encouraging and uplifting thing inspiring. And that's why we do it well. Today's top from above. Is this no more silly superstitions in two previous podcasts. I spoke about how worry is essentially superstition. We think by worrying. We actually have an effect on a situation concerned about. We've trained ourselves to worry through a process that I described that goes something like this. We worry about something. Then that bad thing that we worried about doesn't come to pass and then we assume that our worry was the key. He reason why it never happened. What a good warrior M I as I often say? And that's what we think which reinforces the need to worry. Next time time and on and on it goes but the worry according to Jesus did not actually do anything by worrying we he did nothing to actually prevent the problem from happening but we would love to think that we made some kind of difference that we had some measure uh of control because well we would love to have some measure of control in our lives. And that's the reason that we do it. It's the exact same the principle behind other kinds of superstitions. That's why I call it a superstition. You see it in sports all the time an athlete who wears a lucky shirt or doesn't isn't wash their socks after they've won a game or carrying a rabbit's foot or wearing a lucky charm or crossing oneself before an at bat or a free throw or field goal. The athlete does some ritual right before they shoot the free throw and then they make the free throw and they assume that whatever that ritual was was the reason that it it went in of course it wasn't the reason it was actually hard work in practice and skill. No one Jesus says can do anything by I. Worrying all wearing ever does is to harm us. That's all worrying is good for but in this episode. I WANNA WANNA address another superstition. The plagues many Christians and almost as much especially for some people who struggle with a false narrative. If that I want to expose and I have the I admit that I too am one who has struggled with this false narrative so I know it pretty well. This false narrative of is the belief that God punishes us for our sins. It's kind of a divine quid pro quo Of this for for that kind of arrangement we sin and then we assume God must level some kind of divine retribution. So for example. Let's say we tell a lie and let's say it's a somewhat serious lie not just a little white lies we like to think. But let's say it's like Maybe calling in sick back to work when we're not sick at all we just don't want to go in that day and we do it and then we know what that was wrong. I lied I flat out lied but we do it anyway. Anyway and we usually find ways to justify it but that's another topic for another time now for many who hold this false narrative we will then assume assume that God only knows that we lied saw that we lied but is also pretty upset about it and is already devising some way to punish us. This is a very common belief in the book. The good beautiful God. I signed a poll taken at Baylor. In which thirty eight percent of American Christians actually believe that God is doing this. Nearly three out of four Christians tick the box that said I believe God awed an angry judge who's poised to punish us for our sins so when we sin we assume God's mad and is planning on getting us back for it perhaps it will manifest itself in a loss or a set back a financial problem or worse may be an illness for ourselves or even the loved one. And that's how the false narrative works. It works proactively. Meaning that when we sin we think well something is coming coming right but I've also discovered that it works retroactively as well. It works in reverse so in in this case something bad happens. Something happens in our lives. That's bad and then we start to wonder. Hey what did I do. That caused that the happen. It's an old narrative and ancient one. Actually it can be traced back to the book of job in which jobs friends I say that in air quotes see his suffering and assume that job has done something to merit it. Hey what did you do. Job is their line of questioning and we see it also in the gospels as well so when Jesus and his disciples come upon a man born blind congenital blindness they ask ask who sinned rabbi this man or his parents that God caused this to happen to him and this exact same thing happens on two other occasions once once when a tower fell on a group of people and killed them which was a kind of natural disaster and on another occasion when a group of innocent people were slaughtered slaughtered and so that would be man made kind of disaster but on both occasions. The same question is asked of Jesus a Jesus Rabbi teacher. What did they do to cause this to happen to them? Here's an important point on all three occasions. Jesus denies this narrative. He never affirms that narrative in contrast he actually exposes them as false narratives on the man. Born blind he tells his disciples that neither the man nor his parents did anything to cause blindness but that his condition is such that God will be glorified and Jesus heals him in. He's glorified and we're talking about him today. He never affirms the narrative that the people who suffered did anything to deserve it. He never does that. Jesus never affirms this kind of divine quid pro quo. And in fact his actions and his teachings tell the opposite story they actually reverse that narrative so for example he comes across a woman caught adultery and prevents her rightful punishment. I mean there is nowhere in the story that she was innocent or whatever I mean the point why is that she was caught and she was about to be stoned to death but Jesus does some things that actually prevent her from that punishment also he chats with a woman at a well who is living in sin he knows that but instead of asking for change or telling her she's being punished or anything like that he just says. I have some living water that you can have. He encounters a man named Zacchaeus a famous story who was a known extortion. Her and Jesus invites himself to dine with Zacchaeus Zacchaeus his home. There's never any word about. Hey this bad things happening to you because of what you've you've been doing. It's quite the opposite all three of these centers if you will are never told God's punishing them at all but instead all of them are offered forgiveness even if it's unspoken and offered a relationship with Jesus a relationship that leads all of them actually a change to go and send more he literally says to the woman cutting adultery or to give back what has been stolen weed in the case of Zacchaeus one final point about this in Jesus most famous story. It's actually the most preached about texts in the Bible. Which is the story of the Prodigal Son in that story? Jesus most famous story the main center if you will in the story causes his zone demise and when he finally comes to his senses as it says in the text and decides to come home he's not met with judgment but rather a party you know I often say to people. There's only one answer to the question. What is God like and that answer is Jesus John Fourteen nine if you've seen me Jesus says you've seen the father so this insanely common incredibly pervasive vases and ancient false narrative is exposed by Jesus not once not twice but several times? So why do we by this lie for the same reason we by the worry lie. We want some measure of control. If my actions determined God's behavior then I'm in control by my sins I force God's act against me but by the same token by my good actions I force gone to bless me in both cases I am in control and I like that even if it's killing me even if it's based on a lie you see grace grace takes away any sense of control and and that's actually harder for us because in truth we don't actually have that kind of power over God and God's not interested in meting out punishment for us on the basis basis of our sins. I mean if so that would be all about all God would ever be doing. I mean after all I not only commit sins of commission as they they say I commit sins of omission. The things I failed to do so God is going to be pretty busy just constantly like there was that saying I got to meet the punishment right. That's not God's plan okay. So if God is not punishing us for our sins Dawson's Orleans matter to God do they matter at all I answer emphatically yes. So here's another one of my caveats. I haven't done a caveat in a little while but here's one yes our sins do matter our sins cause us pain they turn us from God and they turn us from ourselves. Here's what I believe is the true narrative when it comes to this issue of sin. Our sins are acts of self-punishment gets big points. Repeat it our sins are acts of self punishment. Now what do I mean by that. Every time we sin we are turning first of all away from God. We're saying I'm just not going to go. God's will l. God's way and so that act that turning from God is really the major thing that causes us harm because now we've stepped out of the fellowship with God and then we we commit that act whatever the act of sin might be you can pick one of the seven deadly ones or lots of other ones. That are six hundred thirteen commandments Eh. The Old Testament in lots of ways to break amendments or descend. But when we do that what we're doing is turning away from God and that's why it causes a breach now some sense to be sure actually involve other people so back to my example about lying about work then and you're actually now. You're you're drawing someone else into the Senate self. You've lied to someone. So they're also sins that involve other people and they harm other the people and in a sense. I think what they do. Is they cause relational breaches. That's what happens when I buy. My sin involve another the person they may in fact harm another person directly. I mean for example. If we're meaner were angrier we say something really hurtful to someone. That's a sin. That actually does hurt someone else. So when I say that sins are acts of self punishment they certainly are that in their essence in their origin but they also have an effect on others and to be honest of course all of our sins even the private ones alternately do harm other people though often indirectly because when when we send were harming ourselves and that harm will be felt by others especially those we love and live with. So what am I saying. I'm saying that this idea that God is meeting out some kind of punishment for all of our sins. All of the time has been exposed by. Jesus it's just a simply not true and it's deadly and it's very harmful to us but we hold onto it we hold onto it because I just would like to have some kind of control and grace just doesn't let that happen. Grace's basically God's way of saying no you actually don't have that kind of ability to control what I do. I love you you and I'm always going to love you and I'm with you and yet as I said in the caveat at the same time our sin harms us it always always has and it always will well. I want to close this episode with one of my favorite stories. It's a story that I I heard from Dallas Willard within society about George Fox and William Penn and George Fox was the founder of the quakers and William Penn was the founder of the Cali only known as Pennsylvania but these are two very important figures in in certainly Christian history but George Fox again. He was an older Christian. Me was mentoring. William Penn and William Penn had come from A wealthy family and as was common in that day A person who came from an upper class you usually was separated by their attire. By what they wore. You kinda knew who the wealthy people were who the poor people are on the basis of what they were wearing and in the case of someone who was a part of the gentry or the upper class one of the things that the men were was a sword they didn't wear a sword Around their waste necessarily to use it but it was. It was actually a part of your tire. It was like a really cool accessory if you will. And so William Penn.. Here's this young guy. He's become a quaker and he's from this wealthy family and he's been wearing this sword As a part of his his general attire but he feels badly about it because well first of all he knows look. quakers are pacifists. Cry First of all so the sword represents violence and second. He also knows that one of the quaker values of simplicity. Any quality is also being affected by wearing the sword because it's sort of separating him By class so in the story this favorite story of mine about these guys. William Penn goes to George Fox and shares with him is concerned and he's like I'm not really sure I should be wearing the sword. I'm comfortable with it. So he talks it through and when he's done sharing his concern with George Fox. George Fox famously says depen- where it is long as you can William where long as you can and it I am I going well. That's a weird thing to say. I mean what is what is Fox saying by that what George Fox was communicating to William Penn.. He saying I know that in your conscience you know. This is wrong but I can tell you that it's wrong. I could say for heaven's sake. You'RE A quaker William. Take like the sword off Craig. And gave him a law give him in commandment but what he understood was that William Penn was a person who is under the leading of the spirit and he trusted in that any new that as long as he continued to try to walk in the spirit to keep his mind on things above to live this this Christian life that eventually he would look at this and say you know what I don't need to be wearing this because of the reasons that were mentioned and that's exactly what William Penn eventually eventually did so Jim. Why do you like that story so much? Well I think it really is a a store. You can apply in many ways because typically we want to to Sort of lay down laws. This is right. This is wrong but as Christians. We also know that it's really about the heart and what's happening inside the human heart. That's what Jesus is most concerned about. I mean he was critical of people who were very fastidious and keeping the law but their hearts were far far from God. So what I love about. The story is is it just. It reminds me that as we're living the Christian life following the leading the spirit. We'll know right. We'll know this is the right thing to do and we'll do it because it's the right thing to do right. And that's the whole issue about about sin is sin is its own kind of punishment of us but eventually we begin begin to see the right way and we choose the right way and we make those decisions and it shapes and forms are character which God's ultimate plan. I hope you join me next week. For Episode Fifty Nine. And that will be a things above conversation with Casey Taghrid. Until then you can find me on twitter and facebook at James Brian Smith and you learn more about this podcast at Apprentice Institute Dot Org. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend and you can also subscribe which means you'll get them automatically each week. My hope is that one day if you're asked. Hey what's on your mind. Your answer will be things