20 Episode results for "earl morris"

Skyman

Sci-Fi Talk Indie Film

24:49 min | 10 months ago

Skyman

"Now another addition of Tony Auto on CY CY talk. From Lord of the Rings Type. Abraham. votes. Julian sounds as creepy man. Who Your Mazda Someone I to hat. Wow Hey. That's great appreciate. My guy the Archangel Gabriel is. Really. What is most important? Is. That Burnham forgives herself. Because as Burnham I, carry a tremendous amount of guilt and shame. Name is Alex. Zahara played read God's Zales to. Iron Shirt, the one. I own US freaky leaders. Allman Kokatay. Talk. A typical. Behavior. Special Effects. What's it like curfew you both to kind of the things that aren't there well know sometimes. You have an experience anyway with people. Like gone. In part because of the hopeful nature of genes vision, but also because of its message of diversity and inclusion. Wrong and prosper. Hi Welcome to sci-fi Talk. Tommy Tomato here with Dan Myrick are Daniel Myrick A. He is a writer and director of an interesting film Sky Man. Dan Welcome and I mean I've always been kind of an amateur UFO allergist, but Don't really investigated, but whenever a case comes up, always interested so this movie is certainly up my alley so I appreciate that Dobro. What I think. What's interesting is several ways to do this kind of film. You can either do it as an investigative kind of thing, but I like the approach that you're taking to make it more of a personal story where this is something that. The main character experience as a young boy, and then years later as an adult he kinda revisits that a little bit. Talk about approaching it from that side as opposed to. A who done it, or are you a photos real kind of investigative movie? Well, I think first of all I just find that aspect really compelling you know. Filmmaker I always sort of drawn to characters and their stories into sort of go in the direction of procedural or investigative thing I think it's been done a million times that you can go to any history channel travel channel and. Completely Binge which I've done on on you know the in search of equivalents of nowadays that. I think you know I. I can't compete with that, but. From a storytelling perspective, you know it's about characters and I wanted to kind of. Tap into some of the the research that I had done over the years, and when I was a kid, and back in the seventies and eighties, when UFO's were really big thing and take inspiration from those testimonials that I've that I've looked at in and bring them to bear on on a character hybrid that. is from the perspective of the experience her, and how meaningful and the consequences of their beliefs and their compulsion to find answers that rarely gets told. That's where the character of Carl came about. And his effect on his on his family and and and his own life, and to identify with him as a person that's searching for answers which I think, we all can kind of relate to, and that's. I just felt compelled to do to challenge. Of course you have to cast Carl as an adult and as a child. So how do you approach that I? Guess there has to be some level of resemblance. It made me some continuity with the character so that both actors kind of blend into each other in dove-tail each other. Yeah you. Certainly I mean we. We had the benefit of there being a thirty or disparity, so you can get away with a little bit more kind of Cherry to freedom on you realize Carl as as a as a child, and in our particular instance, it's the the child is playing a major role in the film. It's just sort of referencing this this episode of of the citing. He had so so we had a little bit more kind of creative license to work with their, but but certainly there had to be you know some familiarity you know in this. This behavior physicality, and that that you would buy it and believe it, and and the same challenge presented itself with relied realizing his father because we have pictures his father back in the day, so we need to Kinda believe there's some sort of know resemblance there as well as his sister. So always a challenge is still making trying to cast family members that aren't actually related to each other right unbelievable with with with these characters and so yeah, it was. It's always it's always a bit of a challenge. I notice that what I did. See the film. Tears a hand held kind of technique, and almost to make it look like you're almost into room with the characters and it's. As close to being real as possibly can, and that's something I. Think you pioneered with the? With the Blair, witch project so talking about that aspect of it or of kind of keeping your camera kind of free in that sense. I really liked that style of shooting. From a filmmaking standpoint, it just gives you a lot of onsite freedom. You know you can. You can go into the situation with the much smaller production footprint. Allow the actors more freedom of blocking? And provided the story. Lends itself to that style It can be a very rewarding. Experience for all involved. You just don't have as many encumbrances with that Kinda. Shooting and it allows for a lot more spontaneity and sort of Magic to happen between the lines of the script that that is always. A wonderful thing when that happens so this? Particular Story chronicling. Carl's journey I've felt lent itself to this sort of kind of mockumentary approach and you know I was I'd said before. It's very conscious of the fact that a lot of people might compare the style to Blair witch and Baggage! It's brought into this, but it's not a found footage movie. It's really. The first time that I that I. Myself Am a character in the film. I'm basically I'm the filmmaker documenting Carl's stories, so you even hear my voice occasionally off. Camera But it's sort of took this hybrid kind of Earl Morris approach to telling this guy story which. Gave me the best of both worlds I could have Carl's perspective being recorded. You know when need be but I could also see Carl story through the prism of my own filmmaking Lens, which has its own subjectivity involved so? Wasn't sure if that approach was gonNA work. But it ended up being you know in hindsight the only way to do this for me, because it does give you the sense of intimacy with Carl and his surroundings, and his life, and his relationship with his sister and friends that you otherwise wouldn't feel I. Think in in a well lit typical narrative format, so so yeah I'm I hope it I hope it works you know on the grand scale, but I'm I'm pleased with the result and you're casting. Michael Sally and also michelet Sweeney. Again very strong woman character that we've seen in some of your films. What did they bring to this project that? Maybe you didn't see initially my style. Most most cases some of it governed by budget, but I i. really like casting unknowns and I think for this particular film or there was a bit of a debate early on. Should we get a name? And the movie to help with sales and Yada Yada Yada, and I said well for this particular film. Part of it worked for us. You're not quite sure. What you're watching, is it real? Is it not real not that we're trying to pull any hoax on anybody? But there's it doesn't come with any preconceptions of an actor you've seen before. So The character car was really layered kind of complicated. Because I did I didn't want the stereo typical like. Red Neck that you know we all sort of. Why should say all, but many people envision you know a UFO experience, or may may encompass, and and I wanted I wanted somebody that was you know slightly on the spectrum and super smart in some areas, and and ultimately sincere. You know this is a guy that truly believes what he saw. The child is committed to this reunion. And over time you have to appreciate and respect that about him. And if he was unlikable or just a whack job, you wouldn't it would be. You would be a mockery of that whole process and I didn't want that to happen. Michael brought that all those complexities all the subtleties to the character in. Fashion. And with Nicolette, you know I wanted. A younger sister, but also a stronger presence. In his life, she's basically the matriarch of the family now because mom is in hostile and I passed away the brothers wherever you know, and so she's has to hold the fort down and she's. Obviously loves her brother, but is frustrated with the fact that he he can't contribute to the day to day like she would like him to which we can kind of sympathize with. US So having to sort of deal with this big kid in her house. WHO's pursuing aliens and pay the rent at the same time is is is a tough challenge, and she's had to plow through and be supportive on one hand, but also you can see the cracks in the relationship on the other and Nicolette just played it perfectly. and that chemistry between the two and that dynamic they really minded and and developed it over over. A Year of US work shopping it. To almost perfection of really really happy with what they brought to the table. I mean Michael Quoting Arthur C. Clarke I said. This is not your usual guy here. He he's. He's read a few things so I liked I appreciate. Yeah Yeah. He's done his homework and he's. He's not a dummy he has. Not is passionate and wants to find answers, and is not going into this thing. Half cocked one of my favorite scenes in the movies when he's sort of questioning this this author at the UFO Convention and he's picking apart all these little subtleties, and you know the author himself has like. Why are you asking me all these obscure questions and you've got this guy that's very very much has done is due diligence in his looking to Fi-, find connections and defined similarities and other testimonies that are like his own and. And, he's very serious about this. You know you have to appreciate that. Shooting on location is always tough, and you had the to trailers out there, and it looks like it was some wearing the desert, too, so talk about the location how it worked out for you. Well I knew I wanted it to be in the desert. Desert is is I. think anyone who's been out to the desert. It's understandably very sort of spiritual place in your. Your connection with the universe is unlike anywhere else because you just got this. Blanket of stars overhead every night. That really makes you contemplate the universe when you're out there, and that's something very profound. I think throughout human history, and also quite intentionally. It's this landscape. That's very alien in another itself. There's sort of. Kind of. allegory that that you've got this Guy Looking for aliens on another planet, and he's sort of one on his own, so you look at you, look at the the high ground house or the Hgh. If you will and it looks like a little space out out post on the moon and I liked that. So I initially wrote the script out in the desert I have a little RV that trucked out to black rock campground, just north of Joshua Tree, and spent about a month out there writing the script, and was inspired by the desert every day and my buddy that lives in in Apple Valley Ray warned his Co. produce from the project new of this one area close to his house that we could shoot at so so yeah, we haul these containers out there and our production designer. Sean Carroll addressed them all out. And we had our bug out shelter for Carl, and we spent you know two or three weeks out there shooting the film under the stars every night, and literally camping out there while we were shooting is is is a character in and of itself in the film that bug out shelter in in the desert, backdrop great, we'll have more with Daniel Myrick and his film Sky Man just. Hi, my name is Kennedy Westward and I'm the host of size baseball and you're listening to SCI FI talk, magin greater everybody back Daniel Myrick and we're talking about his film sky. Listening, to you, talk about you know a Michael's journey in the film or Actually Carl's. What strikes me is, it's not only that he's looking for evidence of what happened, but he's also trying to maybe find conclusion, and maybe a kind of have closure or kind of find himself a little bit being out there in the desert. My my on the right track with that. No, you're absolutely right I. Think is is relationship with his father is pretty evident. He's looking for some sort of Resolution or redemption. If you will in that in that regard sort of comes to a head later on in the film, where you know Carl sort of admits that he's frustrated with feeling like an outcast or an embarrassment to the family, and and so you know I can understand why. He wants proof that he wants some kind of real indisputable evidence that he's not crazy that you know I can only imagine the looks. He's gotten over the years especially growing up and having such a high profile experience as a child has probably brought into his life. You know probably made fun of and bullied at school and whatnot so. I can understand him looking for some kind of closure. and and you know a validation that he's. He's not crazy. Yeah, so I can I can. I can empathize with that and I and I. Whether you believe he actually saw something or not. You know he believes it, and you really feel for the guy. Can't imagine having gone through that as a child and then. On the local news and you know the kids the next day you're already sort of got. ASPERGER's a little bit probably a little bit of an outcast now. You're the UFO kid right. So grown up with that is sort of sad. It's a sad. It's kind of a sad back store there and know. Of course. His Mother didn't embrace it. She was embarrassed by it and so you? You're rooting for him to get some kind of allegation, even though he doesn't think he needs it, it really is driving him. Find out what what he saw. And and what is this compulsion? Is it really? Just, Tim! Driving all of this into the desert, or is he really being summoned by forces outside himself? That's the open question. No, it's very very cool. You know we can talk about. Blair witch for a second year. you know, say say what you will about that movie, but what you really was, you created the found footage genre. And I can't tell you how many filmmakers I've talked to so act years. And yes them. What kind of film in found footage so everybody started doing it after you did it, and you're really one of the first really taking advantage of the technology. If it was done today, maybe be a Gopro or something like that or even a phone, but still you. You were kind of ahead of the curve and did something very original with that film. Thank you. Yeah, it was it was You know whether they say that convention or necessity is the mother of invention, or that's right. Something said we were you know we didn't have a lot of money and and I. IT Sanchez co-director. co-director on it and I, you know we're desperately wanting to shoot a feature film after film school, and so we had this kind of you know rough idea. The Woods Woods movie that we hadn't developed the time, but we knew it would be pretty cheap to shoot and that it was going to be sort of a faux documentary inspired a lot by like in search of and those kinds of show, so yeah, it was. It was the right movie at the right time. We we were sort of on the cusp of the Internet age. You know reality shows like MTV. Real world was just coming out. Twenty four seven news is just kind of coming into its own, so the audience is a sort of becoming sensitized. To Shaky Cam coverage and normalizing, and that's I think all that put together sort of made Blair witch bigger than it normally would have been at any other time you know even even the sequel I thought that was really kind of a bold move to take as an audience member. You're you're asking the questions, so did they really do it today? Really do all the murders or or wait a minute. Maybe if there is a witch, she manipulated the footage. 'cause you don't know and that's the beauty of it. Yeah, so you're. You're left thinking about the possibilities and you could have done a very standard. This is sequel and hair. She is Bob Boom, but you guys didn't do that and I credit you for that. People might have condemned, but I thought it was a bold move well, I appreciate that and I think Joe Berlinger directed the movies as talented artists in his own right. That's a tough task to take on when you've got senator and his as low key as Blair. Witch blew up so big became such phenomena to kind of undertake You know a a a sequel. reimagining of that of that franchises takes a lot of bugs, and not I mean the Eboni weren't or didn't have. Even more brave enough to do that, but. but it was You know what I love about these kinds of events in our in our lives, and I'm a product of a to I'm a big fan of close encounters and whatnot dirt are wars, and what? How is these? Stones come along and have become bigger than themselves. They become the ownership of the audience right and to hear people how they embraced Blair witch, and and there's there. There are definitely those out there. That are more in got the knowledgeable about the entire universe of Blair than I am because it's just had such an effect on their lives and I think that's a such a great thing about being able to do. This is to to spark people's imaginations that no other medium really does does quite like filmmaking does, and that's always very rewarding to see. People respond to it. Yeah when you keep things a little gray, and you involve the audience in thinking will what could really be asking that question you know then then it become more and vested in it, and that's exactly what happened I. Think so I've. I've always liked films that do that to me. They don't just everything up Nice and neat, and you know spoon feed. You everything I, I. I like when films are flatly ambiguous, and and in the right sorts of ways that that get you talking out in the lobby after the movie's over and Oh yeah, and resonate with you for for months, if not years afterwards, and you know even on sky, man I didn't WanNa really like come down on one side of the other allows people to sort of like. Contemplate and try to explain one side of the other and and that's you know definitely inspired by growing up in that era, a blue a blurry ufo photographs of one could argue it's a hubcap. Spying, saucer right, but knowing for sure and. I guess work that quite not knowing is is really what fuels the imagination. Yeah, I mean were still asking questions about encounters and abductions, and we really don't have the answers even after all these years except for the word of the people that went through the experience. and. That's why I'm glad you covered that aspect of it in the film. Yeah, and that's you know especially in light of the kind of recent declassification of the Blue Book, and you know you're the United States Air Force you know tic TAC ufo sightings, and of course what went down at area fifty one with the big kind of protests and I mean you just kinda reemergence of this kind of genre. Some things being confirmed like you know I just saw another article. I think yesterday about you know FBI files being released that we all thought was. Were defunct. Okay, well, so how much does the government know? And how much are they adding? And yes, if you that conspiracy notion, and also we triggers all of us and I think there is a component to that wonder, and that mystery and that Andy guilty that fuels our. and our need to know I need to know fundamentally. Are we alone right, are we? Are We? The are we the end? All be all the universe or not sky man sort of touches into those seen that we all sort of are kinda asking ourselves as loved the line in contact well, it's an awful waste of space. Yeah Yeah. And, there's been one of my favorite clothes. I haven't the beginning of the film about you know for a loan or I equally as terrifying right, so it is a very very big universe for us for fit to think of us as being the only ones. Here is a very lonely place. That would be very lonely. I don't. We're not ready for first contact yet, but I have no doubt that day will come, and I think right. You're not A. They're not approaching us. Because, frankly, they don't think were interesting enough right now. We're we're in an adolescent right now? So that's what I think, but through me, they might prove me wrong. You never know. Never know about these things. That's just it you really you really don't know and that's no. It's it's. It's one of those things that we You know when you do the math. It's like almost inevitable that there's gotta be something out there. You know just the amount of like habitable planets we we've discovered in our own backyard. When you kinda extrapolate that to the whole universe, it's just law. The odds are telling you well. There's gotta be some other intelligent life out there. It's not during our little. Window of of of evolution, certainly you know a billion years ago, or or what have you, but whether they've circled our neck of the woods or not? Remains to be seen but Not Not impossible not. Certainly not impossible I. Really WanNa. Thank you for being on the podcast and talking about sky. Man Sounds like a really neat interesting film, so definitely GonNa put it on my list of things to see awesome. Thank you for having me Tony Anytime and that was Daniel Myrick. Director and now director of Sky Man, thank you all for listening in checking out UFO's. Play a big part of our lives going forward all right. Buddy Take Care Michael Shanks of stargate estimate. One and you're listening to Sifi Talk.

Carl Blair Daniel Myrick UFO Michael Burnham Director US Allman Kokatay Tony Auto Zahara Julian Alex Abraham. Earl Morris US Michael Shanks Nicolette MTV Dan Welcome
Episode 190: "That's a big-ash tree!!!"

The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe

54:38 min | 2 months ago

Episode 190: "That's a big-ash tree!!!"

"Guys it's mike rowe and this is episode number one ninety of the way i heard it and it's called. That's a big ash tree. That's a big ash tree when my father said those exact words in the conversation. You're about to hear. I was pretty sure he said that's a big ass tree which made me laugh because anytime somebody describes a thing as a big ass thing. I always imagined the hyphen. Not between big and ass but rather between ass and whatever the thing is that follows so a big ass truck becomes a big ass truck or a big ass. House becomes a big ass house. A big ass. Boxer becomes a big ask boxer begging the obvious questions. What exactly is an ass trucker an ass house or an s box. I don't have the answers. I just know that my dad was trying to describe the size of a large ash tree that he and i were attempting to remove from the ground one day back in the summer of nineteen seventy seven and the various challenges that that particular big ash tree presented. It's just one of the many delightful linguistic confusions. You'll find in yet another spontaneous catch up with my mom and dad and another one of the many reasons. This podcast is called the way. I heard it not the way it was even my own. Dad remembers things differently than i do. Which is not at all unexpected. The old man is here to help me unpack chapter twelve of my book which i'll read for you. Forthwith chapter twelve tells the true story of another father and another son and another miscommunication. The turned out to have some very serious consequences. Big ass consequences. You might say or if you prefer big ask consequences. Whatever that means the whole thing is one big ash road. It all starts right now and buy right now. I mean right after. I remind every business owner listening to this podcast. That hiring during a pandemic can be a big ass challenge. I don't care if you're looking for a nursing. Brassica were lawyer. Louisiana were a mascot and missouri. If you have a position to fill anywhere in these united states ziprecruiter can help you find qualified candidates fast. And now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter dot com slash ro four out of five people who post a job for free on ziprecruiter dot com slash row will find a quality candidate in twenty four hours. It's just science. It worked for me. And i bet it'll work for you from accountant to zoologist and everything in between try for free and sip recruiter dot com slash row. If you try it for free at ziprecruiter dot com slash row. I get credit for sending you over there for which you have my gratitude as opposed to my big ask gratitude which no one really wants either way it's ziprecruiter dot com slash r o w e they really are the smartest way to hire and this really is the way i heard chapter twelve words words words george understood the consequences of words better than most so did his son but now staring at the blank tombstone that would mark his boys final resting place. George was at a loss to find the right ones. What words could possibly some up the life of the poet that millions of people all over the world were now morning loving son. Why wouldn't work. Beloved has been and father hardly in the end. George went with catatonia. Mona l. tool true to his own spirit. George was satisfied with those words. He hoped james would have approved but truth be told. Approval was not something. George had ever received from james nor in fairness was it something george had ever offered his rebellious son. Indeed father and son hadn't spoken since the fateful day. James had told the old man he was joining a band. Aband- what kind of band a rock and roll band. I'm going to be the singer. That's ridiculous george. Had pskov rock and roll isn't music. Besides you can't even sing now looking down upon the granite bust of the young man with the long hair and the unearthly gays. He contemplated the magnitude of his mistaken. Assessment george thought about the thousands of protesters who'd been galvanized by his sons words and music. He also thought about some other words words that he'd spoken in haste six years earlier back then george had been patrolling tense and dangerous coastline and a place. Most americans had never even heard of the seas were high that evening. The fog was thick and the radar screen showed enemy ships approaching from several directions approaching quickly. They didn't respond to any warning or communication. So george did what he had to do. Speaking the words that would change history. He said opened fire. Those words went down to the gunners. Men who unlike georgia's son were not inclined to ignore his orders for nearly four hours. Georges navy yard upon enemy ships. That refused to leave his radar screen. Meanwhile thousands of miles away in washington. Dc president johnson got word of the sea battle. He interrupted all three of the networks with some words of his own. This new act of aggression on the high seas must be met with a positive reply on national television. The president asked for and received congressional approval to retaliate and the gulf of tonkin resolution was passed back in the gulf. Though after the fog of war had finally lifted george saul why the enemy ships had been unsinkable. They weren't actual elite there. The radar hits were not ships at all. They were anomalies brought about by bad weather and high seas or maybe technical glitch whatever the cause george had been firing into a ghost fleet. George reported the error to his commanders. In hawaii they called mcnamara immediately but the secretary of defense for whatever reason didn't relate the message to the president. The air strikes went off as scheduled and just like that. We were at war with vietnam. Oh yes george understood. The consequences of words spoken in anger. They had divided his family spoken in error. They had divided his country. People still argue about whether his words were an honest mistake or part of a government conspiracy to push congress into declaring premature and completely avoidable war. Perhaps the answer to that is best addressed by the words of his son. Who once wrote there are things known and things unknown and in between are the doors fitting words from a rebellious boy who remained true to his own spirit. The son who could sing after all and proved it by providing a soundtrack to the war. His father had started a dead poet named jim morrison. It was a saturday morning. I was fourteen and there was my father standing at the foot of my bed. Sharpening double sided axe. It's time he said let's go. My father has a tendency to start conversations in the middle of sentences. he's also suspicious of anything modern like now nhs time for what i knew. The question was futile before. I'd asked it so as i rolled out of bed and pulled on my jeans and my work boots i tried another one is a cold out. Invigorating he said. Your mother made oatmeal eat fast. Are massey ferguson. Tractor idled outside as we loaded up our wooden cart ropes and pulleys jacks and wedges to chain sol's and various other weapons of war. Mom added a lunchbox filled with ham sandwiches and green apples to our arsenal along with a large thermos of coffee. It was snowing already. Try not to kill yourself. She said dinners at six. I can't count the number of times that my dad and i drove the old tractor down that stone road. We'd go through the lower pasture in deep into the woods to do battle with the pine the maple the oak and his favourite the mighty locust the hardwood puts up a tough fight but it burns the best. He would say the fact that we heated most of the old farmhouse with nothing but a woodstove was a source of great pride for my father and endless inspiration for witticisms. Like job your own. Would that will warm you twice. The man took great pleasure in finding just the right tree. What he loved even more was chopping that tree down. Although there was nothing nearby but the ground for the tree to fall on. He liked to pretend that there was. He imagined himself. As the contestant on some sort of lumberjack game show challenge perhaps to drop the tree between a mercedes and a school bus full of children with nothing but to spare on each side with pulleys and ropes and lots of delicate chainsaw work. He would coach the tree to the ground determined to see it. Land precisely in the spot where he wanted it once that was done we'd stripped limbs and the branches and cut them down to stove length pieces and then we turn our attention to the trunk. Working backward from the top of the tree to the bottom as the cuts became progressively thicker the chainsaw wind louder and higher. Sharpen that blade. Son adult once twice as dangerous. I still remember how my arms shook. Even after the solid been turned off and stowed away hauling. All that would back to the house was a full day's work but splitting the larger chunks into smaller pieces that would fit into our insatiable woodstove. That was a chore without end every day after school. Meant an hour up in the woodpile with dad i can still hear his voice as i got ready to swing the axe aim for the chopping block. Son not the would. If you aim for the would you'll hit nothing. A smart man named einstein once said people love chopping wood in this activity one immediately sees results being einstein. He was right. Chopping wood does yield immediate results. It's immensely gratifying. Just watching the progress unfold but up there in the woodpile. The gratification was always delayed delayed. Because my father wasn't just teaching me how to swing that old double sided acts. He was teaching me. That work and play were two sides of the same coin. He was showing me the hard things. Challenging things could also be fun in fact. The challenge was where the fun was today. I wonder to the morrison's have a woodpile behind their house. Someplace where george could show jim that there were dangers involved when it came to cutting against the grain a place to illustrate the consequences of driving wedges too deeply into the stubbornness stumps what i know from personal experience. Is it fathers and sons. Ken find the right words. They can find them in the woods when they go there together to get the fuel. They need to keep their family warm. A are you recording on your phone. You never know when you guys are going to be interesting. Astor's fine line dad in my world interesting and disaster. Sometimes the really disastrous episodes are the most entertaining. Ones yes would show. are we talking about. Are you referring the dirty jobs. Oh your show and we have a new mattress you know. Yes i on that. Well i follow your wife's facebook page and yes. It sounded like you found something you like but what arrived was more in keeping with yoga mat but then the memory foam right now. You're happy yeah had a nice night. Lot of people who get those say takes a week or so to adjust. But i think we adjusted at least. I did very nicely very quickly. I had a good night quick study. When's the last time you bought a mattress that nineteen twenty years ago. It was a beauty. Rest yeah yeah. And it really looked like new. The the lady at the store who sold us this mattress said now they will not touch it if it has any stains on it well. Our mattress had the forensic people come in and check l. Pristine it looked like a brand new mattress which made it really hard to get rid of. Well you know at your age. That's a pretty. That's a pretty big claim. Nineteen years and not a single stain on the mattress. Dad good for you. What do i do. I'm very careful with my coffee. So you got a foam mattress and last night was your first official night's sleep on it. That's correct why would you please. Yes but it was different memory foam. Well when you lie on it it it kind of leaves an indentation shape of your body so rolling over is a real chore because the mattress reaches up and grabs you. It doesn't want you to move so you have to overcome inertia order to turn over south. It's it's getting used. I never had a problem turnover. My problem was getting to bed. I do oh. I do i move. I sleep on my right side. I sleep on my left side. I've fucking it wasn't a complaint. No you would say your. He moves enough in bed but not not a lot. Kathy move some just enough just enough just right. Yeah that's not weird little You know the whole mattress thing. I mean nineteen years. Those things get another twenty percent heavier every seven or eight years. They say the best. I remember that that episode of dirty jobs. it was thoroughly disgusting. I reach temperatures. You had rubber gloves on. And you dress like an adult. Pick it up those floppy old mattresses that were ancient and just rife with all kinds of bacteria she'll put in yesterday. Mike are really great change subject. Yeah i'd say so all right so we're not going to talk about the dead skin that makes mattresses way exponentially more twenty years later than when you buy them. We're gonna move onto windshields. that's fine. Why you gotta do. She'll debt. Because i had a correct in it. They say if the crack can be covered by dollar bill then it can be repaired. Well i try a five dollar bill thing might be a little bigger and and that wouldn't cover it. It took two five dollar bills to cover the correct there. That's that's a ten dollar cracked right there. Therefore to hold windshield had to be replaced currency in this country is all the same size. And that's not the case all around the world. You go to australia. Some of those bills are huge. They're huge thing. We watch a lot of british television. And goes i mean. Those pound notes are enormous. Well other people's money is a lot more fun. i mean. Ours is all green and white and rectangular and of the exact same dimension but you over and some of these european countries. The colors are really vibrant down in south america. The same thing. You've got pink bills an orange bills now. Maybe it's more difficult to counterfeit. I bet it is well. We got special ink you know and and special paper. I think anyway fiber thank you. Yes there's fiber in the paper. I'm talking to the one and only john and peggy rowe. My parents who have graciously agreed to join me to discuss the chapter. That you all just listen to mom and dad. Did you listen to the same chapter three ten. Yes and are you prepared to have an unscripted conversation about what you heard. Yes well yes but you know your father. He has endless curiosity so he was motivated to read further about visit. Jim morrison would you learn about the morrison's yeah. Yeah well one thing i learned. Is that jim or james. Morrison of the doors died at age. Twenty seven from either a massive overdose of heroin or from a heart attack that may have been caused by the heroin but he was twenty seven when he died. There was never any reconciliation between parents and on and there was one occasion where his mother and his sister came to see a show that jim was in and after the show was over the mother and sister walked up to. Jim and jim refused a talker in one of the songs that he wrote he talked about the edifice angle that his father was dead and that he was sleeping with his mother. Show my impression. James morrison was a korge or too short of a full vic. Well he was troubled for sure. But didn't you find it interesting. I mean it has a history teacher. A social studies teacher. I mean i didn't. I knew a lot about james and nothing about him. But i knew nothing about george. Did you know anything about him. No i didn't know that he was the rear admiral who offered the fathering on ghost ships. I didn't know that and the way you credit him with having started the vietnam war. I think the sun jim morrison was right in his attitude toward his father and the vietnam war to me was a word that should never have been. But it wasn't just father you had a mcnamara who was hugely responsible and later on. He wrote his book. I think it was fog of war as a terrific book but it's an even better documentary. It was directed by a guy named earl morris and yeah. The fog of war tells that whole story. That's what had it in the back of my mind. That's why i knew that. George was a key figure in this. But i didn't i didn't realize how key but i really didn't care about me that i just i mean it's interesting but i liked the relationship i mean i don't like it but i was interested in how bad the relationship between the father and the son was and you know how it was never reconciled in the idea. The old man standing there next to his son's grave trying to figure out how to sum up his life and realizing really for the first time to so many millions of people around the world loved his boy. Even though he basically wrote the soundtrack for the war that his father help start. I thought it was all kind of interesting and had something to do with you. And i cut and would get in that way. What's the matter what do you mean. Don't get into it some great days. I don't know. I don't know what i'm allowed to say anything. You want your eighty eight years old. My dad what am i gonna do at you yes to begin with. We never owned a double edged axe willie at one next door and he used to hang it pops shop and it wasn't ours but i thought it was better in the story. The idea of you standing at the foot of my bed holding an axe. It sounds better. If it's double edged now look you did do that. It might not have been a double edged axe but you absolutely came into my bedroom in the basement on more than one occasion and you would kick the bed to wake me up and then we would go out to work. That happened more than once. He can dream. Bloody you've got a great imagination. Mom back me up on this. I'm sure it happened very selective memory. Yes i know he does look we all do. That's why it's called the way. I heard it but the way i remember it on more than one occasion. You would wake me up. Sometimes it was in the summer. I remember spending hours digging out roots right. You would cut down. There was that tree back behind the house members. Is this all day after day. Trying to pull that out of the weeks to get that stuff out elm tree. Yeah and and you looked at this thing. I was such a weird mixture of of delight and resentment. You know like this was a challenge. And you were going to do it yourself. And i was going to assist in some small way but i remember it was so hot. The stump was just completely intractable. And i had read somewhere about a device called a stump grinder that would simply eliminate the entire thing in about ten minutes. We could have gotten a stump grinder and spent ten minutes. Just whittling this thing down to ground level or just below it and that would have been that but instead we spent a week with picks and how was finally up my good friend charlie griffin brought a come along and with that come along. We finally pulled that thing out of the ground. Explain exactly what that is dead. you know. It's a tool with totally. Yeah it's like a pulley and hit has a cable the cable you wrap around whatever it is you want to remove and you have the other end fastened to in this case our tree and then you work it back and forth like so. This is a podcast. Add by the way so you say like so i mean the gestures are interesting here on zoom but the folks listening are probably a bit baffled will anyway. It's a set of police. The come along is a set of police. Well would you like to hear the way. I remember it. I would mom desperately. This was a project that interested the whole neighborhood. It went on for weeks to months. And in the summer the neighbors would come over willie and rose and i guess russ and fran. I mean they would all gather round. They would bring their lawn chairs and they gather round this stump and they would watch. The progress is dead was putting water into the hole and chopping and trying to break up those routes. It was never ending entertainment. They would bring their beer and they would sit there. Pipe and talk and laugh and watch watch dead work on this yes. He could have gotten a stump grinder but he would have deprived the neighbors of such wonderful entertainment and camaraderie on. I'm sorry i didn't write about that. You know i mean. I wrote about the business of going back in the woods and coming back with fuel for the woodstove that that to me. Was you know a big recurring epic thing. You did that a couple of times. I did not very often. Your brother scott is yes out there more often than you split would. Yeah i don't know about that. I mean you know. I i was older so i was gone. And you probably yeah. I mean he lived at home longer than i did and he was up there. Yeah you're probably right. But the the the better story is the stump the this giant stump behind our house close to the house. And i think part of the reason you wanted it out because the roots were still growing right and they were getting into the foundation. There were no no no no no no no decree. You're talking about is much farther. It was closer actually zone pops property. Oh that would but there was another one. you're right. There was that other tree off of the corner of the patio. Yes it was on the corner of the patio dad. That's the first time. I remember you coming down kicking my bed. Standing there with the axe telling me to get up. And i got out of the bed and the story. We go back in the woods. Cut down a tree but in real life what happen is we went around back and you gave me that acts and i just started working on the roots and you started doing whatever it is you're doing and it just never stopped. It was sisyphean stumped. I still don't know what tree you're talking about you. We had planted that tree early on. That was a big. That was a big story. It was an ash and very any professional. I had a professional come in and cut that tree down. You say it was a big ass tree and it was a very big with mistake. Was i played ashtray. Oh sorry. I planted too close to the house right. If there's a point to be made here regarding your husband mom. It's it's the fact that we could have gotten a stump grinder. We could have done it for a modest sum. We could have saved ourselves probably a month of work. I never ever heard you say dead. Why don't we get a stump grinder never in some way shape or form. That's the only thing i've ever said to you over the last fifty eight years. Why don't we do the. There's look i can't even begin. I could write a whole separate book dad on the occasions where there was an easy button and your way and you never hit the easy button ever. It's still going on right now. Mom what's what's the most recent example of your husband refusing to do it the easy way. Oh golly pull up a chair pull up account you you always wanna do things your way. And she her way that prevails. You know something of the bailey. What was his name o that. Pbs show yeah rump rumpold rumpled of the bailey. He always referred to his wife as she who must be obeyed executives. There jim sit. Yeah but if you know that you will ultimately obey her if you know that she will ultimately get her way. Why put up the fight. Why not just agree and get on with your life and save everybody why not get the stump. Grinder came my. Here's an example. I talked to chuck the other day. And we planned this zoom. And i reminded him that. Your father has some hearing issues. And he said what you need is the splitter you go onto amazon and you order yourself a splitter and he said but you need it in two days maybe stopped by best buy. That might be a better thing and then you can get it right away so yesterday. Well dad was outside with two windshield guy putting on the new windshield. I said oh. I'm going to run across the street to the grocery store. When in fact i drove back to best buy and i picked up a split. Because if i had said to your dad okay. We need a splitter. Oh we'd have been calling story after story after store to get prices you you'd still be shopping still shopping. How much was it by the way it was nine ninety nine it would've been cheaper nine ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars. It would have been cheaper on amazon. I think they're like five but then you have to pay shipping shipping. Right tries to compete with amazon com. They really do everybody's trying to compete with amazon right so anyway so i got home and i'm anxious to show off. My product took it out of the took the box out of the bag. Open the box and it was empty. It was an empty box. Well how's that for good shopping. People manage the store said. Oh yeah we have splitters to right over here. Let me get you. One i said is this the only one he said yes this is so he picked up the box handed to me. I said thank you. I took it over to check out. The girl took it from me. Rang it up. Gave he put it in a bag. Gave me the bag with the empty box and the receipt and i drove home and and then i had to go all the way back rush hour traffic. Just feel like an empty box. But you know what the one that had a splitter in. It felt like an empty box. And i said to the girl. I'm not falling for this again. Open that box. Tell me what's in there. She said it is awfully light. She opened it. And there was the splitter mean is just a tiny thing until he told mother that that happens people come in and they take things out of the little boxes manure pocket. Put the box back on the show. So in other words it was stolen. So somebody stole the splitter from the box you bought an empty splitter box brought it home had to take it back right so the moral of the story is nothing's easy anymore now but they were very nice about. The moral of the story is open before you leave the store there. You go have a look in the box. Checking of goods before you on the dotted line. Metaphorically i'll tell you what's interesting talking about this splitter on dirty jobs years ago. I don't know if you remember it. Dad but i went to a a lumber yard. It's actually. It was an operation next to a young a lumber yard where they used the scraps to make Shakes and shingles right for roofs. And they had a split a log splitter and i thought again of the woodpile when i saw this thing in action you is like a miniature guillotine with a heavy blade and you could put any stump any log of any size in this thing and it was hydraulic and you hit a button and man it would cut it in half and then half again in half again and i just thought the amount of time we could have saved up in that woodpile with a splitter and the amount of time we could have saved in the front yard with a stump grinder dramatically changed our lives. I'm not sure for the better but it would've changed things. What would we have done with extra time. I don't know. I mean this was a great time. You said it was a great time to have words. We could exchange words together while we're chopping wood while we're hauling would well. We're carrying it to the house seeps lost. We wouldn't have had any quality time together. Yes that you know what you're right you're right and and lists. I think we do agree. I think that was the larger point. I was attempting to leave the reader within the chapter. Not necessarily the detail regarding a double sided axe versus a single side at x. But oh we've come up with a mother contradictions as well. But what else you have. What else did you hear in my story. That didn't comport precisely with your recollection. All i got an itchy back here. I can't reach you at san francisco. Apparently that's it. Whatever you're doing. It was back their mom. It seems like a cat his legs up in the air sometimes will hug and while we're hugging rub each other's back and i said we're like two old horses in the pasture scratchy. Each others back. Thanks for that mom. I prefer to imagine you on your new memory. Foam mattress stuck in your requisite indentations trying to give each other a back rub while you're talking about a busted windshield. That really was amazing. My before they got here with the mattress. I had gone down and opened the doors. Pitching this big mattress you know. I moved furniture out of the way i moved to chair. I got everything already and the guy comes walking in with this round under his arm. And i'm thinking oh they must be bringing us a couple of pillows two so he put it on. The innerspring started unrolling it and honestly it was about two inches thick at the very most and he just flopped in on the bed and i thought well what a mistake this was. This is not what we ordered. He's he said they were hispanic the young men who delivered this now. This good this get big. You sleep on it tonight. And i thought wow that's got a long way to go so every hour so we could walk in in the bedroom. Is it a mattress yet. Yes it looked like a plowed field. At one point it was all the big grooves in it where it had been rolled was very interesting and they also included two pillows which i did take a picture of and they were like an inch thick when they came and i thought yeah. They're going to be really useful pillows. Well today. they're like nine inches there. You go get yourself nine inch pillow little memory foam mattress another interesting story associated with the mattress. Do tell the guy pulls up out front e calls. Let's just know he's here. Your mother says oh he's here he's here we go down and she rushes downstairs to open the doors so the band can kill man. Meanwhile i'm upstairs and he's cold again and i've let them do she's down there. She comes in because this camera. Go downstairs go down letterman show. I go downstairs and hump waiting and the truck was parked out front. And i don't see any movement and waiting. Both doors are open. Cold very cold and keep looking where are they. Why aren't they coming in. So finally i said gonna close this door cut down when they show up then. I'll open the door on the next thing. I know here comes a guy walking by me. Carry a mattress on inside in. I've said i've been waiting for you to come in. When did you come in. I come in do wanna go. I said okay. So i come upstairs. There's the microsoft bid. What apparently happened when excitable mom here get downstairs. Get downstairs. I went down the steps and apparently they were coming up on the elevator at the same time. I was going down the steps. So you you blame mom for telling you to get down there exactly right in. When she had already left the doors for them. I don't know why needed to be down there. Well look i mean. Every day is an adventure some days. It's a mattress some days. It's a splitter. Well maybe you're right about it. Maybe i will maybe made little crooked over there. Honey squirrel squirrel dad over here. Look i you know when. I look back at all of this. I mean this computer did not get you. Your first computer did not get you your first telephone with push. Buttons did not get an antenna that allowed us to watch. Tv without somebody standing there holding a piece of tin foil wasn't either one who insisted you get cable. So you could actually watch shows like rumpled of the bailey and microwave rumpled of the bailey without cable always had pbs without cable. Look all i know is if it wasn't for me and your wife constantly pushing you to get a mattress or a splitter or whatever was where would you be right now would be making phone calls on a rotary phone computer. Was i said in my book. If it wasn't for me your father would be sitting on a stone cooking squirrel over an open fire and that's true crooked exaggerated just a week. Maybe just ted. What i think. The real sadness of that story is the failed relationship between saen parents. Apparently not just father. You know there's really no cause for that. I don't care what your differences are. I had friends. I mean i know people well i know at least five cases of estrangement of parents and children and i just think it's the saddest thing in the world. I don't get it. i don't. I mean i'm sure there are reasons that people have and they think that they're valid reasons but i think in the end. It's just a great sadness. Well it's the frog and the boiling water. you know. i think it's it's this some something terrible happens and nobody can get over it but it's it's usually a slight thing and then days turned into weeks and weeks and months and suddenly you haven't talked for a couple years and then nobody even remembers what the problems were in the. Nobody has the words to fix it. But i think dad you're the smartest guy i know. Oh get out of here with them. Look i'm not saying you're not deeply flawed. You are you are. You know you're you're you're comparable without is smarter than deeply flawed. Well it's two sides of the same coin. You're you're specificity. Your attention to detail sometimes get in the way of the larger truth but your basic understanding. You're my haitians. They might get in way of the larger lie. I'm trying to compliment you. If you just hush up on what what you said earlier. Woo is absolutely true. And it and it is of your many great gifts. It's one of the greatest ones but the the refusal to take a shortcut. Put us in constant situations where there was time to talk hours days. You know spend the time with your kid. Trying to get a stump out of the ground and it suddenly stops being about the stump and starts being about the of you swinging axes and doing whatever you can. And then sometimes the neighbors come over and they sit down and they watch and mom. You're right all of that seems so random and inconsequential when it happens but when you look back at it you know. It's it has an element of everything including performance. We were literally dad. You and i were actually performing for the neighbors. In some weird performance art get the stump out of the ground thing and it. It didn't occur to me until right now that that was actually important. Well we lived in the country. The neighbors were desperate from diversion entertainment. You want to talk about trees. One all right sure mattresses windshields and trees. We got to land the plane here soon. Though that one of the best trees we ever had was given to us by. Ross sigler our neighbor. It was a peach decree and that peach tree was the most bearing tree i made. It was full of fruit. Your granddad came over to prop up the branches. I remember they were hanging. Fruit was so heavy through with make a couple of hours taken peaches of on trump's mill road and settlers rush hour. He leave with like a bushel basket. Come back an empty basket and his pockets. Were full of change. I think the best peaches all i've ever eaten. You know what you're right. And i forgot that it was ross. Who gave us that. But i remember being surprised that we had a bumper crop one year and we thought wow what a year this was but year after year after year they just. We had hundreds and hundreds of peaches off of that tree. Mom i remember you preserving them mason jars and all that stuff. I'd freeze pitches. And i'd slice it and preserve them. The thing is i read where you have to have two trees so that they can cross pollinate but there was only that one tree and rewards of. I don't know of any other peach trees in the neighborhood but it was really quite an asset. I mean it wasn't much to look at but it really didn't bear and then there was a there was a pear tree back in the field and every route to yeah and every year we wait for this. Yeah the way for those pairs to get ripe. And then just when they were almost get ripe some animal would come along and take every one of those pairs. A tree was stripped tree every pair. Eight new just before we were about to pick them. I think it was. I think so. Well they were that a busy night. Mike kellogg is going to lay as someone to know if i should drink all this tea or not. Look i'm sure the listeners are wondering to what few we have remaining but not much longer. Do you know what just know. Let's close with this. I i remember. I mean since we're talking about the woods behind the house and the trees around the house and the house itself you know it's all gone now and ogor with joe their dad. The woods are still there. But the last time i went back it also seemed so smaller so much smaller than the way i remember it. The field seem smaller. The road seem smaller would seem smaller. The house of course was gone. But you know. I think that's the way it is when we look back like you go back to high school. The the halls seems smaller. But do you remember. We had planet although cedar trees. Well there's a story behind every tree and we had a lot of trees. That big gash tree was a big ass. No doubt about it ash ash right nyc remember the the pine tree was at pine or spruce right on the corner of the house by by the faucet pa and it was. We planted that like five feet out from the house and it got enormous. It was way up high eventually. Had to take that down but that was fun. I took down in. Pieces are climb up and cut a section out. I remember that to to cut it down to a manageable height. Do you think you do. You think you've cut down. More trees planted more trees in your life more. I think i planted because so much of the would we got from back in the woods. Who has fallen timber is low it at all. Send mike thanks to our fireplace and our woodstove. You dad did have quite some. You have quite some memories of working together outside we do. And thanks to your Your brother rob. Who made that woodstove for us. A really talented welder. Ironworker remember it was called a wagner wagner woodstock warner on you know what i was close. Double sided axe could have been single to say for sure. But yeah that thing. That thing sat there where our fireplace had been. And i and at first i was like. This is a bummer. I missed the fireplace. You know but with the woodstove in front of it. Well things got a lot more efficient. Not not really as pretty and we lose the big giant black thing sitting right there in the middle of your room kept us warm. It did and there's no heat quite like that of a woodstove. It's a dry heat and believe me. You don't have to sit there very long before. You're snoozing remember how the dogs used to fight over their position each one and to be right in front of the woods. Stow yeah and ginger would lie there. She was the smaller dog. And she feel really good about it and shimmer would walk over and just stand there and look at her and she didn't have to do anything and eventually ginger couldn't stand it she get up and walk away. Do you think we could get away with naming a dog shim today. I don't know what would be the objection. Well i mean. Remember when you brought that dog home dad. We couldn't decide if it was a he or she right so we call it. You know a her or him so we called her. And i'm just not sure you know the political environment being what it is today you can. You can see name dog. I of transgender. Doug i don't know. I don't know if we could have gotten away with a great dog. She was she was he was a good dog. Jim and ginger first night. We had ginger. He scared the pants over. Michael remember dog nearly gave me a stroke. My youngest brother brought home this stray and left it on the front porch sleeping in a a small. Like little rug setup. I came home late. It's probably two in the morning. I was trying to quietly get the key in the door and that dog made us. I mean it's a small dog. But wow the sound that thing made sounds just like a lion or something and i i did. I jumped about a foot in the air. I don't know what it was but it was coming at me dumb. God all right. Look i gotta go. This has been really great though. Thank you for making some time. What i'm sure is a very hectic saturday. How's the move coming. Do you remember. Mickey yes i remember missy. Yeah it's interesting. Because there's a dog in the neighborhood also named missy but poor missy you know how he met her demise. Yes i really want to end this with the story of how mri got run over. No you're though know who asked the paper boy. All the damn paper boy ran over our dog that's how missy that's how it ended was a sad thing it was that we got back at him. What did we do to him. We stop getting the paper bag and we haven't read to this day revenue ups i. I'm trying to i'm trying to. I'll try not to interrupt all right. You're the best parents ever. I miss you. I the stupid stupid. Stupid plague thing is coming to an end. I can't wait to see you. I'm going to be back east In a couple of weeks. I'm going to try and get up there on my birthday if it works out. Yeah oh that's very we had. It happens every year gonna be old okay so say anything because it would just continue the conversation sweet. Jesus yes okay. Alrighty thank you. I love you. Final thoughts dad in five seconds or less. I love us on there. You go lobby to my god. Look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks. All right well. I maybe. It'll work out. Maybe he's uncertain times between now and then you can always call fair enough number. Yes i do. Yeah seared into my retina guys. My you can enough into zoom. Okay but i want to tell you something okay all right. This concludes the podcast Officially if you want my book you can download it wherever people download books and listen to it. There's a paperback coming out later. Where you can just join us next week for another one of whatever this was thank you bye. Everybody bye nyc.

george George jim james Mona l Aband Georges navy Dc president johnson george saul jim morrison vietnam mcnamara einstein peggy rowe mike rowe korge morrison earl morris
Skyman

Sci-Fi Talk

24:49 min | 11 months ago

Skyman

"Now another addition of Tony Auto on CY CY talk. From Lord of the Rings Type. Abraham. votes. Julian sounds as creepy man. WHO YOUR MAZDA! Someone I to hat. Wow Hey. That's great appreciate. My guy the Archangel Gabriel is. Really. What is most important is that Burnham forgives herself. Because as burn my carry a tremendous amount of guilt and shame on name is Alex Zahara played read God's Zales to. Iron shirt the one eyed onus ricky leaders. Code Rush. Allman coca were not. sci-fi talk. Papa typical. Behavior. Special Effects. What's it like care for you? Both to kind of two things that aren't there? Well, you know sometimes you have an experience anyway. Like gone. In part because of the hopeful nature of genes vision, but also because of its message of diversity and inclusion. Long and prosper. Hi Welcome to sci-fi Talk Tommy Tomato here with Dan Myrick are Daniel Myrick a he is a writer and director of an interesting film Sky Man. Dan Welcome and I mean I've always been kind of an amateur UFO allergist, but. Don't really investigated, but whenever a case comes up, always interested so this movie is certainly up my alley so I appreciate that dome. What I think what's interesting is several ways to do this kind of film. You can either do it as an investigative kind of thing, but I like the approach that you're taking to make it more of a personal story where this is something that. The main character experience as a young boy, and then years later as an adult he kinda revisits that a little bit. Talk about approaching it from that side as opposed to. A who done it or are you a photos real kind of investigative movie? Well. I think first of all I. Just find that aspect really compelling, you know. Filmmaker I always sort of drawn to characters and their stories into sort of go in the direction of procedural or investigative thing I think it's been done a million times that you can go to any history channel travel channel and. Completely Binge which I've done on on you know the in search of equivalents of nowadays that that I think you know I I can't compete with that, but. From a storytelling perspective, you know, it's about characters and I wanted to kind of. Tap into some of the the research that I had done over the years, and when I was a kid, and back in the seventies and eighties, when UFO's were really big thing and take inspiration from those testimonials that I've that I've looked at in and bring them to bear on on a character hybrid that. is from the perspective of the experience her, and how meaningful and the consequences of their beliefs and their compulsion to find answers that rarely gets told. That's where the character of Carl came about. And his effect on his on his family and and and his own life and To identify with him as a person that's searching for answers, which I think we all can kind of relate to, and that's I. Just felt compelled to do to challenge. Of course you have to cast Carl as an adult and as a child. So how do you approach that I guess there has to be some level of resemblance? It made me some continuity with the character so that both actors kind of blend into each other in dove-tail each other. Yeah you certainly I, mean we? We had the benefit of there being a thirty or disparity, so you can get away with a little bit more kind of Cherry to freedom on you realize Carl as as as a child, and in our particular instance, it's the the child is playing a major role in the film. It's just sort of referencing this this episode of of the citing. He had so so we had a little bit more kind of creative license to work with their, but but certainly there had to be you know some familiarity you know in this. This behavior physicality and that that you would buy it and believe it, and and the same challenge presented itself with relied realizing his father because we have pictures his father back in the day, so we need to Kinda, believe there's some sort of know resemblance there as well as his sister. So always a challenge is still making trying to cast family members that aren't actually related to each other right unbelievable with with with these characters and so yeah, it was. It's always it's always a bit of a challenge. I notice that what I did. See the film. Tears, a hand held kind of technique, and almost to make it look like you're almost into room with the characters and it's. As close to being real as possibly can, and that's something I. Think you pioneered with the? With the Blair witch project so talking about that aspect of it or of kind of keeping your camera kind of free in that sense. I really liked that style of shooting. From a filmmaking standpoint, it just gives you a lot of onsite freedom. You know you can. You can go into the situation with the much smaller production footprint. Allow, the actors more freedom of blocking. And provided the story. Lends itself to that style It can be a very rewarding. Experience for all involved. You just don't have as many encumbrances with that Kinda shooting, and it allows for a lot more spontaneity and sort of Magic to happen between the lines of the script that that is always. A wonderful thing when that happens so this? Particular Story. Chronicling, Carl's journey I've felt lent itself to this sort of kind of mockumentary approach, and you know I was I'd said before. It's very conscious of the fact that a lot of people might compare the style to Blair, witch and Baggage it's brought into this, but it's not a found footage movie. It's really. The first time that I that I myself am a character in the film I'm basically I'm the filmmaker documenting Carl's stories? So you even hear my voice occasionally off camera? But. It's sort of took this hybrid kind of Earl Morris approach to telling this Guy Story, which. Gave me the best of both worlds I could have Carl's perspective being recorded. You know when need be, but I could also see Carl story through the prism of my own filmmaking Lens, which has its own subjectivity involved so? Wasn't sure if that approach was gonNA work. But it ended up being you know in hindsight the only way to do this for me, because it does give you the sense of intimacy with Carl and his surroundings, and his life, and his relationship with his sister and friends that you otherwise wouldn't feel I. Think in in a well lit typical narrative format, so so yeah I'M I! Hope it. I hope it works you know on the grand scale, but I'm I'm pleased with the result and you're casting. Michael Sally and also Michelet Sweeney I. Thought you know again very strong woman character that we've seen in some of your films. What did they bring to this project that? Maybe you didn't see initially my style. Most most cases, some of it governed by budget, but I I really like casting unknowns, and I think for this particular film or there was a bit of a debate early on. Should we get a name? And the movie to help with sales and Yada Yada. Yada and I said well for this particular film. Part of it worked for us. You're not quite sure. WHAT YOU'RE WATCHING! Is it real? Is it not real not that we're trying to pull any hoax on anybody? But there's it doesn't come with any preconceptions of an actor you've seen before. So. The character car was really layered kind of complicated. Because I did. I didn't want the stereo typical like whacky redneck that you know we all sort of. Why should say all, but many people envision you know a UFO? experience or may may encompass and and I wanted I wanted somebody that was you know slightly on the spectrum and super smart in some areas, and and ultimately sincere. You know this is a guy that truly believes what he saw. The child is committed to this reunion. And over time you have to appreciate and respect that about him. And if he was unlikable or just a whack job, you wouldn't. It would be a mockery of that whole process and I didn't want that to happen. Michael brought that all those complexities all the subtleties to the character in wonderful fashion. And with Nicolette, you know I wanted. A younger sister, but also a stronger presence. In his life. She's basically the matriarch of the family. Now because mom is in the hospital and I passed away the brothers wherever you know, and so she's has to hold the fort down and she's. Obviously loves her brother frustrated with the fact that he he can't contribute to the day to day like she would like him to which we can kind of sympathize with. so having to sort of deal with this big kid in her house. WHO's pursuing aliens and pay the rent at the same time is is is a tough challenge, and she's had to Kinda plow through and be supportive on one hand, but also you can see the cracks in the relationship on the other and Nicolette just played it perfectly. And that chemistry between the two and that dynamic, they really minded and and developed it over over. A Year of US work shopping it to almost perfection of really really happy with what they brought to the table. I mean Michael Quoting Arthur C. Clarke I said. This is not your usual guy here. He he's. He's read a few things so I liked I appreciate. Yeah Yeah. He's done his homework and he's. He's not a dummy he has. Not is passionate and wants to find answers and is not going into this thing. Half cocked one of my favorite scenes in the movies when he's sort of questioning this this author at the UFO Convention, and he's picking apart all these little subtleties, and you know the author himself has like. Why are you asking me all these obscure questions and you've got this guy that's very very much has done is due diligence in his looking to Fi- find connections and defined similarities and other testimonies that are like his own and. and. He's very serious about this. You know you have to appreciate that. Shooting on location is always tough, and you had the to trailers out there, and it looks like it was some wearing the desert, too, so talk about the location how it worked out for you well. I knew I wanted it to be in the desert. Desert is is I think anyone who's been out to the desert? It's understandably very sort of spiritual place in your. Your connection with the universe is unlike anywhere else because you just got this. Blanket of stars overhead every night. That really makes you contemplate the universe when you're out there, and that's something very profound I think throughout human history, and also quite intentionally. It's this landscape. That's very alien in another itself. There's sort of. Kind of. allegory that that you've got this Guy Looking for aliens on another planet, and he's sort of one on his own right, so you look at you, look at the the high ground house or the Hgh, if you will, and it looks like a little space out out post on the moon and I liked that. So I initially wrote the script out in the desert. I have a little RV that trucked out to black rock campground, just north of Joshua Tree, and spent about a month out there writing the script, and was inspired by the desert every day, and my buddy that lives in in Apple, Valley Ray warned his Co. produce from the project new of this one area close to his house that we could shoot at so so yeah, we haul these containers out there and our production designer. Sean Carroll addressed them all out, and we had our bug out shelter for Carl, and we spent you know two or three weeks out there shooting the film under the stars every night, and literally camping out there while we were shooting is is is a character in and of itself in the film that bug out shelter in in the desert, backdrop great, we'll have more with Daniel Myrick and his film Sky Man just. Hi, my name is Kennedy Westward and I'm the host of sci-fi. And you're listening to SCI FI. Talk Magin, greater everybody backward Daniel Myrick and we're talking about his film Sky Man. Listening to you, talk about you know a Michael's journey in the film or Actually Carl's. What strikes me is, it's not only that he's looking for evidence of what happened, but he's also trying to maybe find conclusion, and maybe a kind of closure or kind of find himself a little bit being out there in the desert. My my on the right track with that. No, you're absolutely right I. Think is is relationship with his father is pretty evident. He's looking for some sort of Resolution or redemption. If you will in that in that regard sort of comes to a head later on in the film where you know Karl Sort of admits that he's frustrated with feeling like an outcast or an embarrassment to the family, and and so you know I can understand why he wants proof that he wants some kind of real indisputable evidence that he's not crazy that you know I can only imagine the looks. He's gotten over the years especially growing up and having such a high profile experience as a child has probably brought into his life. You know probably made fun of and bullied at school and whatnot so. I can understand him looking for some kind of closure. and and you know a validation that he's. He's not crazy. Yeah, so I, can I can. I can empathize with that and I and I. Whether you believe he actually saw something or not. You know he believes it, and you really feel for the guy. Can't imagine having gone through that as a child and then. On the local news, and you know the kids the next day you're already sort of got. ASPERGER's a little bit probably a little bit of an outcast now you're the UFO kid right. So grown up with that is sort of sad. It's a sad. It's kind of a sad back. Story there and know. Of course. His Mother didn't embrace it. She was embarrassed by it and so you? You're rooting for him to get some kind of allegation, even though he doesn't think he needs it. It really is driving him. Find out what what he saw in. And what is this compulsion? Is that really? Just Tim. Driving all of this into the desert, or is he really being summoned by forces outside himself? That's the open question. No, it's very very cool. You know we can talk about. Blair witch for a second year. you know, say say what you will about that movie, but what you really was, you created the found footage genre. And I can't tell you how many filmmakers I've talked to so act years. And yes, what kind of filming his found footage, so everybody started doing it after you did it, and you're really one of the first really taking advantage of the technology. If it was done today, maybe be a Gopro or something like that or even a phone. But still you, you were kind of ahead of the curve and did something very original with that film. Thank you. Yeah, it was it was You know whether they say that convention or necessity is the mother of invention, or that's right. It's up, that said. You know we didn't have a lot of money and Eboni. It Sanchez co-director on it and I you know. We're desperately wanting to shoot a feature film after film school, and so we had this kind of you know rough idea. The Woods Woods movie that we hadn't developed the time, but we knew it would be pretty cheap to shoot and that it was going to be sort of a faux documentary inspired a lot by like in search of and those kinds of show so. It was. It was the right movie at the right time. We we were sort of on the cusp of the Internet age. You know reality shows like MTV. Real world was just coming out. Twenty four seven news is just of coming into its own, so the audience is a sort of becoming sensitized. To Shaky Cam coverage and normalizing and that's I think all that. Put together sort of made Blair. Witch bigger than it normally would have been at any other time you know even even the sequel I thought that was really kind of a bold move to take as an audience member. You're you're asking the questions, so did they really do it today? Really do all the murders or or wait a minute. Maybe if there is a witch, she manipulated the footage. 'cause you don't know and that's the beauty of it. Yeah, so you're. You're left thinking about the possibilities and you could have done very standard. This is sequel and hair. She is Bob. Boom but you. Do you guys didn't do that and I credit you for that. People might have condemned but I thought it was a bold move. Well I appreciate that and I think Joe Berlinger directed the movies as talented artists in his own right. That's a tough task to take on when you've got senator and his as low key as Blair. Witch blew up so big became such phenomena to kind of undertake You know a a sequel. reimagining of that of that franchises takes a lot of bugs, and not I mean the Eboni weren't or didn't have. Even more brave enough to do that, but. but it was You know what I love about these kinds of events in our in our lives, and I'm a product of a to I'm a big fan of close encounters and whatnot dirt are wars, and what? How is these? Stones come along and have become bigger than themselves. They become the ownership of the audience right and to hear people how they embraced Blair witch, and and there's there. There are definitely those out there. That are more in got the knowledgeable about the entire universe of Blair than I am. Because it's just had such an effect on their lives and I think that's a such a great thing about being able to do. This is to to spark people's imaginations that no other medium really does does quite like filmmaking does, and that's always very rewarding to see. People respond to it. Yeah when you keep things a little gray, and you involve the audience in thinking will what could really be asking that question you know then then it become more and vested in it, and that's exactly what happened I. Think so I've I've always liked films that do that to me. They don't just button everything up Nice and neat, and you know spoon feed you everything i. I I like when films are slightly ambiguous, and and in the right sorts of ways that that get you talking out in the lobby after the movie's over and Oh. Yeah, and resonate with you for for months, if not years afterwards, and you know even on sky. Man I didn't WanNa really like come down on one side of the other allows people to sort of like. Contemplate and try to explain one side of the other and and that's you know definitely inspired by growing up in that era. A blue, a blurry ufo photographs of one could argue it's a hubcap. Actual buying saucer right, but knowing for sure and. I guess work that quite not knowing is is really what fuels the imagination. Were still asking questions about encounters and abductions, and we really don't have the answers, even after all these years, except for the word of the people that went the experience. And that's I'm glad you covered that aspect of it in the film. Yeah, and that's you know especially in light of the kind of recent declassification of the blue. Book and you know you're the United States air, force, you know tic TAC ufo sightings, and of course what went down at area fifty one with the big kind of protests and I mean you just kinda reemergence of this kind of genre. Some things being confirmed like you know I just saw another article. I think yesterday about you know. FBI files being released that we all thought was. Were debunked like okay well. So how much does the government know? And how much are they adding? And yes, if you that conspiracy notion, and also we triggers all of us and I think there is a component to that wonder, and that mystery and that Andy guilty that fuels our. and our need to know I need to know fundamentally. Are we alone right, are we? Are We? The are we the end? All be all the universe or not sky man sort of touches into those seen that we all sort of are kinda asking ourselves as loved the line in contact well, it's an awful waste of space. Yeah Yeah, and there's been one of my favorite clothes. I haven't the beginning of the film about you know for alone or I, equally as terrifying right, so it is a very very big universe for us for fit to think of us as being the only ones. Here is a very lonely place. That would be very lonely. I don't. We're not ready for first contact yet, but I have no doubt that day will come and I think right? You're not. Approaching us. because. Frankly they don't think were interesting enough right now. We're we're in an adolescent right now? So that's what I think, but through me, they might prove me wrong. You never know. Never know about these things. That's just it you really you really don't know and that's. It's it's. It's one of those things that we You know when you do the math. It's like almost inevitable that there's gotta be something out there. You know just the amount of like habitable planets we we've discovered in our own backyard. When you kinda extrapolate that to the whole universe, it's just law. The odds are telling you well. There's gotta be some other intelligent life out there. It's not during our little. Window of of evolution. Certainly you know a billion years ago, or or what have you, but whether they've circled our neck of the woods or not? Remains to be seen but. Not Not impossible not. Certainly, not impossible. I really WANNA. Thank you for being the podcast and talking about sky. Man Sounds like a really neat interesting film, so definitely GonNa. Put It on my list of thanks to see awesome. Thank you for having me. Tony Anytime and that was Daniel Myrick. Director and now director of Sky Man. Thank you all for listening in checking out. UFO's I think you're going to play a big part of our lives going forward all right. Buddy Take Care Michael Shanks of stargate estimate one and you're listening to Sifi Talk.

Carl Blair Daniel Myrick UFO Michael Tony Auto US Karl Sort Nicolette Alex Zahara Director Dan Welcome Burnham Julian Allman Papa Abraham. Earl Morris MTV Michael Shanks
'The Inventor' doc exposes Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes

The Frame

25:40 min | 2 years ago

'The Inventor' doc exposes Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes

"From the Mon broadcast center at KPCC. This is the frame I'm John horn today. Alex, give wny's new documentary shows how Elizabeth alms created a story that convince people that are blood testing company would change the world. But it wasn't true in male dominated Silicon Valley. Shouldn't there be a woman who has an entrepreneur manages to make a huge success of herself. That's what we all wanted to hear. So she played on that. And how the so called king of surf guitar influenced decades of rock bands. They may not have been consciously breaking out the dick Dale records. But that style of plane was already baked into a lot of popular means all that coming up on the frame. Welcome to the frame. I'm John horn. Elizabeth homes is an inventor, or at least she says, she is homes. Founded theranos, the Silicon Valley startup said that it created a small machine that could conduct scores of medical tests from one small drop of blood thoroughness attracted hundreds of millions in investment dollars and an array of high profile admirers and board members, including Bill Clinton, George Shultz and Henry Kissinger, here's home speaking at Stanford in two thousand and nine I think you have to believe in yourself. And I think you have to have the conviction in yourself to be able to make something happen because ultimately it's up to you. And when you have that level of conviction, you'll find the people or the resources or the tools that you need to make it happen. These days homes is facing the possibility of a different kind of conviction. She's currently awaiting trial for wire fraud and. Spiracy. Oscar winning director Alex Gibney tells her story in his new documentary, the inventor out for blood and Silicon Valley. Here's how Gibney describes how theranos pitched itself as an innovative health tech company with just a finger prick blood you can diagnose two hundred two thousand different diseases, which is the way of saying that no more ugly needles and also it means you can constantly monitor your health. That's the theory. She was I think an amazing storyteller. And you're storyteller s well when you start thinking about the way that she told her story and persuaded people because ultimately was a story. There wasn't really anything there. What was her gift about telling stories? It's something first of all I think that she got from Steve Jobs. I think Steve she was an acolyte of jobs, and I think in my view, the most important thing about John. Was that? He was a great storyteller for Elizabeth. The key to her story was making an emotional. And she always started off talking about her uncle he was diagnosed when day with skin cancer, which all of a sudden was brain cancer and in his bonds. He didn't live to see his son grow up. And I never got to say goodbye. And if only he had been able to see into the future, by diagnosing, his blood he would still be alive today. So suddenly, everybody's heartstrings or there, and and the idea that that by doing this we can take control of our own healthcare. And so the evil bureaucrats who were trying to administer death panels will no longer be relevant because now we can take control of our own bodies on our own healthcare. That was how that was the compelling aspect of it. Because I think one of the interesting things about storytelling is not only are they good ways. I remember facts. Much easier than graphs and charts. But they're also meant to be emotional. And it was tugging on the emotional core that that really did it for Elizabeth you talk about Steve Jobs. I think another person that was very important to her was Thomas, Edison. In fact, blood testing machine is called an Edison and your documentary. You look at Thomas Edison who in some ways shared more than a couple of things with Elizabeth homes. And that is that he often said he could do things that he couldn't do he claimed credit for things that he actually hadn't done he faked results to impress journalists. What part of Thomas Edison is mirrored in the things that Elizabeth homes did for better and for worse. I mean for better he was a dog, it'd inventor, and he was trying he set a goal post way out in the distance and said, I can Mike and make it there and over time, I think is famous quote, which I'll mangle was something, you know. There are no mistakes. I just try ten thousand times until I get it. Right. So that persistence that sense of trying for something big and bold. All very admirable. Not so bad Rable is this idea of fake until you make it? He was the original fake until you make it guy. And so when that vision of where you want to get to is so out of sync with reality. And the possibility of you getting there instead of admitting that. You just pretend that you've made it, and that's where Edison did fake results. That's where Edison did try to buy off reporters by giving them stock in his company. You know? So so, yeah, the there's the good in the bed. She also was able to do that with a lot of smart people. But they were smart people who didn't have a lot of expertise in this realm. And that includes people like Henry Kissinger, George Shultz, Joe Biden, I think goes on a tour. There are a lot of journalists who were fooled. But I want to ask him particular about some people who maybe could have and should have known better. She gets the chair of the science department at Stanford University where she went and dropped out to come over to theranos. Now, he seems like a smart guy who should know what the challenges are in making this device and getting it to work and yet he becomes a true believer. So the case of Channing Robertson, who's the person whom you. For is the enduring mystery of this story because he is a renowned scientists maybe not renowned anymore. Now, he's infamous in a way that I think you would prefer not to be. But, but how did she convince him that this mission was worth taking you know, she gave him stock. She was paying him. Good money. Those those things have a way of of of changing your beliefs. But I I also think that he got caught up in that sense of mission. But I don't really know. I mean to me he's the guy who should have known better. One of the one of the great lessons of the story is that you know, she idolized Steve Jobs, but another thing that she neglected to really investigate about jobs as life is jobs, flamed out spectacularly he got booted from his own company. He started next which was an unmitigated failure. And it was only then he learned that he needed to surround himself with. A very talented people who also be were willing to give him bad news that was terribly important. That was not something that was not a lesson. Elizabeth learn and Channing Robertson was a classic. Yes. Ma'am. Coming up more with Alex Gibney about his documentary. The inventor. Welcome back to the frame. I'm John horn. Now, let's get back to the documentary. The inventor from director, Alex Gibney, it's about Elizabeth homes and her blood testing company theranos Gibney also made going clear Scientology and the prison of belief, and I couldn't help but think of going clear when I watched the inventor and got a window into the us versus them mentality that became the company culture inside theranos, the them were competitors who also performed lab tests or anyone who doubted theranos in some ways it felt like a cult. It's the prison of belief is idea that you get locked in a prison. The the cell doors are open, but you never leave because you're so convinced in the mission, and I think that is is relevant here. You could see the company meetings. They were have they were like revival meetings. And it was always about measuring themselves. Not only to some great emotional goal. But measuring themselves against questioned lab corn fact one piece of footage that we were able to. Obtain shows them shows the CEO of the company sunny by Wani leading everybody in you cheer. And it's basically you to quest and Labcorp. Well, there are not many companies that lead their employees in. Cheers of you. And so that idea of the prison of belief was very powerful. And it's what cemented everybody together in a kind of cult like atmosphere in some people talked about that. I suspect you ask to talk to Elizabeth homes. She probably said, no. And yet there's an extraordinary amount of footage of her was that owing to her own narcissism. I mean, she shot herself. It feels like all the time. Right. So we did reach out to Elizabeth one of the producers on the film Jesse sat with her for about five hours early on and tried to persuade her to go on camera to no avail, and she kept promising. Maybe you know, she she she kept thinking that when the company turns around, then I will talk to you that never happened. We were in a difficult position in terms of making the film because early on we didn't have many images at all the company. I mean, we were locked out. But over time we were not only able to persuade. Need people to come and talk to us, and we can get into why they they were afraid initially. But we found a source inside the company who was able to give us hundreds of hours of footage of theranos filming themselves and it plays in the movie as if we had total access. It's very well shot. Yes. It is a great audience hired aero Morris. Well, that's an interesting question. Because Earl Morris was hired to direct commercials for theranos. And Earl Morris is a fantastic documentary. Filmmaker how was it for you to actually have to because you have to include our Morrison this film, and he's appear. I don't know if he's a friend or a colleague, but certainly he's a great documentary filmmaker what was that like having to put Errol into your film? It was very strange. I mean, I'm a big admirers barrels. And I think there's a lot of what I do that was inspired by arrows kind of filmmaking. And so, you know, he's a he's a hero of mine in some ways that said he really did drink the Kool aid here, and I went to aero and I tried to get him to participate because I thought wouldn't that be great? I would interview Errol he could talk about having interviewed Elizabeth, but he said, he declined, and he said something very odd. He said, I said look era. I'll let's talk off the record. And he said for God. There is no off the record and he can be very unforgiving person. That's arrows brand vintage sort of sarcasm. And so that was his response. So I was never able to get him to talk. But I I asked him I thought it would have been great. We're talking with Alex Gibney about his new documentary, the inventor among the board members of their noses, George Shultz who was a former secretary of state, and this is where the story becomes a little Shakespearean because his grandson Tyler Schultz ends up working at theranos. And he's one of the people who recognize his very early on. On that. There's no there there, and he starts talking with Wall Street Journal reporter about what's really happening in the company. So a couple of things there are knows was incredibly secretive. You report in your documentary that they monitored employee's emails. Maybe strikes phone calls. How difficult was it? For people to talk about what was happening, and how did they work against in and try to intimidate employees to make sure that they didn't reveal that nothing worked. Yeah. I think they always tried to couch that as we can't let you reveal companies trade secrets well, as it turned out, the company's trade secret was that the machine didn't work, but but under that rationalization of prohibiting people from revealing trade secrets to competitors. They got very tough with people and one of the ways they got tough with people was by dispatching their sabertooth lawyer, David boies, he's the head of a. Firm called boies Schiller. And he was he got a bunch of stock in the company, and it was also paid a a lot of money was on the board and later was on the board, and he intimidated people massively and when early on when we were trying to get people talk to talk they were terrified of being sued by David boies, because many of them had signed these insanely protective and locked down in the as and I think going forward this country, hopefully will will begin to realize just how damaging the NDA is in terms of not protecting company secrets, but preventing anybody from talking honestly about fraud, and criminality and sexual abuse and other things, but in this case there they were being used to pressure people to shut up and Tyler ultimately ended up having to spend or his family. Ultimately had to spend half a million dollars. Just fending off. The legal advances of were legal attacks. I should say not advances of David boies, when I think of fairness, I really feel like there were two entirely different worlds. There was carpeted world. And there was tiled world. In the carpeted world was where Elizabeth was a goddess everyone, you know, almost worshiped the ground. She walked on. She can do no wrong. She was the next Steve Jobs. Their nose was changing the world. And then you go onto tile side. And nothing works run a sinking ship. Everything's ally. Silicon Valley is a area of the country in a business. That's dominated by men. How do you think gender plays into the story? Well, I think it's hugely important for the story that Elizabeth was creating and by the way was hugely important to a number of the journalists. Notably Ken Oletta from the New Yorker and Roger Parlow from fortune. It was a story that they wanted to tell and frankly, it was a story. We all wanted to hear in male dominated Silicon Valley. Shouldn't there be a woman who has an entrepreneur has an invention of the device and then through her own enthusiasm and effort manages to make a huge success of herself. That's what we all wanted to hear. So she played on that she played on that big time because everybody. Wanted to get behind that idea. There are people who run cons who at some point recognized that what they're doing is a con Bernie Madoff was a legitimate investment advisor. And then he started running a Ponzi scheme, and he knew he had to know. Yes. That he was running game. It feels like Elizabeth homes never admitted to herself even that what she was doing was a fraud. How did you think she persuaded herself that it was something other than what it was which was something that didn't work? Well, I think ultimately was this idea of the end justifies, the means, and there's a really interesting of behavioral economist who's in the film got him, Dan area. Ellie who wrote a book called particularly irrational also wrote another book called dishonesty, and he talks about how the mind plays tricks with our with ourselves. And now that if you believe in what you're doing. And if you believe it's for a good cause it gives you license to behave in reprehensible ways, and maybe even to practice a kind of willful denial. That you are doing that. I'm gonna ask you one last question, and it's kind of a personal question. And that is what you went through as a filmmaker with Lance Armstrong because you started to make a film about Lance Armstrong asked and Elizabeth homes like character. That's right. This Phoenix who's going to rise up who's gonna prove all of his doubters wrong. Who's gonna have this amazing comeback? And you drink the Kool aid that he was racing clean. You ended up recognizing as everybody did that it was a scam. And you made a film called the Armstrong lie. Did you start to understand how you can be duped by thinking back about how you were duped by Lance Armstrong? Yes, I think it would have been hard for me to make this film without having made the Armstrong lie, you know. 'cause I made two versions of that film was one where Lance was a great hero coming back. And I I pretty strong suspicions. He adoped in the past. But he had convinced me that he was clean in two thousand nine. And so I showed myself in the remake of that film. The second try. Luckily, the first one was never released. I showed myself. On the mountain mauve onto cheering for Lance. You know, and I was embedded in the Armstrong team, right? And I like Lance I was hanging out with him. So now, I was inside the tent and I was a fan. Well, that can be dangerous because when you're a fan you want things to turn out well for your team, and you tend to overlook anything wrong because he want to believe that your team is good and your team is going to win. So it taught me a lot about how your emotions play tricks with you. And of course, it would have made for a better film. If Lance Armstrong had won the tour de France in two thousand nine right? So for all those reasons I was all in and when you're all in it's very hard to get outside yourself and see that you're likely making a mistake. Alex Gibney is new documentary is called the inventor out for blood and Silicon Valley. Alex. It's always a great pleasure to see you. Thanks for coming. Thanks, John gray throw. The inventor premiers on HBO tonight coming up on the frame. Dick, Dale has died. We find out more about this intriguing founder of the surf guitar sound. Welcome back to the frame. I'm John horn KPCC is in the midst of its spring member drive, and you can support shows like the frame by going to KPCC dot org or calling eight six six eight eight eight five seven two two and thanks now. Let's turn to a musician whose name you might not know, but whose guitar style. You'll certainly recognize dick Dale was called the king of surf guitar. He passed away on Saturday at the age of Eighty-one. Steven Cuevas is a frame contributor who's interviewed and written about Dale over the years. And when he joined me in studio he described how Dale developed his signature style of guitar playing. Dick was a drummer first drummer and a pianist, and that's something he sort of brought over to Qatar and also it was very much influenced by his environment as a surfer he wanted to emulate the sound of being a pipeline in the ocean that whoosh of energy. He also had big cats lions. Tigers and stuff, and he told me when my lion is hungry. He goes rural are one of my tiger is angry. It's what am I get tired of sound like that? And it does where does one keep lions and Tigers in southern California. I'm glad I was never in his backyard by I think at one time he had kind of a large spread and he just he just had the room it's up until his passing. I think he he and his wife land they cared for and had you know in their lifetime in his lifetime. Hundreds of animals, I wanna ask you about some key collaborators that he worked with Leo Fender. How did they meet and why was their partnership important at that time there? You know, we're talking Orange County. Leo. Fender was based in Orange County. He was building guitars amplification systems. Dick was about nineteen I guess, and he was starting to get a reputation and starting to play large venues like the old rendezvous ballroom. So you're talking thousand two thousand three thousand kids and dick felt that the amplification available at that time just could not fill the space. Since we went to this guy. Leo fender. He heard about and Leo started working with him in developing stronger amplification systems. Leo would take this stuff to dick and go here test this out, and if dick didn't blow it up, then Leo knew he was onto something. Let's listen to a little bit of the song. He's probably best known for miserable. It's impossible. Not to hear that music and not see John Travolta handle Dax Numa Thurman and picture pope fiction. Now, obviously the song was written. Well, before that movie was made, but that movie was profoundly important to his career and the song. So what happened kind of pre imposed Pulp Fiction at that time. Dick was keep in mind. I mean, there's a split of surf music right in the early sixties beach boys, the ventures, dick as a part of that dick is kind of the forefather, and there's I explosion of popularity but then you have psychedelia coming in. You have Motown coming in surf music just got wiped out, so yeah. And dick still survived. You know, making music they got sick. He has his first cancer scare when his very young right late twenties, and he focused on just getting better talking to clean Livin, no drugs alcohol. Affleck and then through Tarantino they work something out in the movie, of course, exploded and with that came this interest in his music again, you had an occasion to talk to dick Dale a couple of times. Let's listen to something that he told you in one of those interviews even when Hendrix base a little vigil barn Pasadena, thirty people come and see me, and these slide he was left handed, but couldn't play the way I was playing with aware or pre of the fact that his music was so influential to other musicians did you care about it? He loved he was referred to as the father of heavy metal. You know, if you listen to bands like Metallica those early records. They may not have been consciously breaking out the dick Dale records. But that style of play plane was already baked into a lot of popular music. So you met him a couple of times. What was he like in person? What was he like in person? Dick was an eccentric not in a bad way. When I went to visit him in Joshua tree out in the desert. I think it was late spring early summer fully trimmed Christmas tree in the living room. Dick. Why do you have a Christmas tree because it makes me happy? It's always up. It's always Christmas talking to dick was not unlike listening to him play the guitar. It was propulsion of it was in a salt of of words, you didn't know where an answer was going to go. He would just go wherever his mind felt like going use a pleasure. He was maddening the Hughes. He's a good good, man. There's so many legacy bands that are still touring. And we might question why they are still playing obviously, they're making a lot of money. Dick, Dale was not doing big stadium shows like the eagles the Rolling Stones. But he kept playing very late in life. In fact, I think you saw him not that long ago. Yeah. What was it like to see him live? How old was he? Did he still have it? Yeah. I saw him spot five or six months ago in Orange County at the coach house, which he had a long relationship with the place was packed by the way. He was a showman. Dick, sang he played piano at that point is bit shakey. But man, I'm telling you John that tone was when he hit that guitar it was there when you think about somebody playing with that much energy that late in their life. I can't help it picture a shark that has to keep swimming to go back to the surfing analogy that he is in the ocean envy, stop swimming. That's it. And he had to keep swimming ashore cast played every day. You would say he played every day. If not the tarp the piano, the drums whatever was lying around. He was just a super musical guy. And you know, I think. It was medicine for him. I think you know, he told me way back in two thousand ten at his house that you know, the pain disappears. And he was quite sick. At that time. I didn't I don't think any of us new housing until we heard the, you know, the news over the weekend of his passing Steven thanks for coming in. Thanks, john. And that's our show for today. I'm John horn. We'll see a back here tomorrow.

dick Dale Elizabeth homes Elizabeth Alex Gibney Steve Jobs John horn Silicon Valley theranos George Shultz David boies Leo Fender Lance Armstrong Stanford University Earl Morris John Henry Kissinger Orange County brain cancer director
Mike Anderson on Vernon, Florida

Movie Crush

1:37:49 hr | 2 years ago

Mike Anderson on Vernon, Florida

"It's the Ron burgundy podcast. It's the Ron burgundy podcast. Guess what? I got up gas. And you don't guess what? I got up podcast, and you don't Ron burgundy. Podcast. Join me Ron burgundy on the Ron burgundy podcast driven by safe auto, the only car insurance company I'll ever use it takes three minutes. And let's face it. That's about all the time any of us should spend with a car insurance company. Hey, everybody. Welcome to movie crush Charles w Chuck Bryant here. Friday interview dishes in the home studio at Pont city market, Atlanta, Georgia, and everyone we got our first documentary this week very excited because it's no ordinary documentary. It is my favorite documentary. The great great film from nineteen Eighty-one Vernon Florida directed by the one of the all time greats Mr. Errol Morris. My friend, Mike Anderson pick this movie and Mike. And I as you'll here in this episode. We used to work in the film business together on crews and stuff. He's old friends of old friends, and we became friends through those mutual friends way back in the I guess sort of early to mid nineties and just really really bonded. Mike say they truly broke the mold with him. And and unfortunately, you won't get to see Michael. On full display like all of us. Get to see on this episode. But he is a one of a kind one of my best pals, and we used to make movies together in Atlanta a little short films. Maybe I'll share some of those on the movie crush page, but Mike was always an inspiration to me as a filmmaker and as a comedian and just one of the funniest guys funniest guys have ever known. So might pick Vernon Florida because this movie that all of our friends have shared over the years as a common bond between us, and it's just a movie who both care a lot about. And that he has even some personal stock in as he ended up befriending one of the one of the real life characters from Vernon Florida in real life. So we tell that story too. And that was just a great pleasure. Getting Mike in here and talking about Vernon Florida. So here we go everyone with Mike Anderson on the first documentary of the series Errol Morris's, Vernon Florida. You know, what I'm looking forward to this. If only the chance to get to see you again in person. Thank you and talk to you. Yes. Thank you. Oh that was it. That sounds like a part one of a two part compliment. To get to see you again and hear that laugh. Uh-huh. Well, you know, you're the first. First person is picked a documentary. Out of this whole series so far after a year, plus. Now, I'm even wondering why did that? Well, I know why. On great. That's right. You know, why? But let me say why said that. After we have the conversation. And I said Vernon Florida. And then we talked about documentaries. On a whole year. I went back, and I was going what would have been the first documentary. You saw I can't think of what was the first documentary. I would have thought it was. You know, the Sesame Street today were going to the farm visit. Yeah. Like, it depends on what you call documentary 'cause we grew up watching Nova in like PBS, right and time life history and stuff like that. Which are all documentaries. But like do you mean like, you know, typed up documents because you're you're exactly right. Okay. For us. We would have seen like you said Nova for our age, probably military, war documentaries. Even though we never saw any kind of Vietnam. Documentaries from whatever Audrey all World War Two. Uh-huh. But. I don't know visions alight. Gimme shelter, maybe something. But yeah, you never went to a movie to see a documentary now not growing up not not in my not in my down. Anyway, not mine either mine either, folks. Well, I mean, you grew up in Kennesaw, it started out very close to where you grew up. Yeah. In the same era same era think you're a year older than me, maybe probably or you seventy sixty nine. Oh, that's pretty cool. Not not for the dump sexual joke. But just born in the sixties like I'm proud to be in the seventies. Right. But you know, you look like you're more in the seventies. And I look more like the early sixties. No. But like you were I mean, everyone I'm going to set this up with my little preamble without you here. But you're filmmaker in you, and I were making. We had a little collective sort of of two people called friendly neighbor films back in the nineties, and I think we were. I'm not trying to blow our own horn. But we were pre YouTube and doing these guerrilla screenings in Atlanta and making dumb short films all over Atlanta. And like what I never really understood what got you into that. Like where you doing stuff like this? When you're a kid, you know. Laissez are probably was but I wasn't doing it. I didn't have we didn't have what we have. Now. These cameras in our phone or anything access to, you know, your early video recorder cameras are did make those early stop motion films that you did too with your brother, but. I always wanted to goof off and entertain entertain my friends just myself. I was I was really really shy still am really terribly shy. So is my wife Jenny, you know, she's, but who also performer absolutely right, and our daughter now Fiona is really really shy. And we try to say, look, you know, mom and dad aren't really that much different than you. We've just kind of figured out like this toolbox that we work with, you know, two that's our way to cope with at all times having this kind of this fear or anxiety or nervous or shyness or whatever that is. Right. So back to the whole performance deal. That was you find out in like social settings in school, or whatever that to be the funny person is the way that you kind of you know, you get out there, and you're not just tariffs. Tied at all times. And you can make a few friends at lunchtime. Yeah. I was telling ruby that the other day man, she's already a little funny. And I had like a, you know, how even when your kids are like three and four you try to get these little life lessons going, and you did the same thing. And I was like listen kid being funny. As like, it's a good thing. And she was like, well, why said well because. People like you if you're funny because you make people laugh and you bring joy to their lives. And so if you're funny, you can really go along way in life because you're going to have more friends, and it sort of like, you might used it as a tool to fight introversion. But that's the thing. Like if anyone like just had a cursory knowledge of who you are. They would not think you're an introvert because you have this toolbox of acting the fool. That's what the big facade plays off, you know, in front of everyone. But you know, but you're right though. I it's if it's a tool or whatever you use it to this day, I'm still coming over here. You know with you one of my good friends. It's there's that that same nervousness nervous nervous. Just because you know, even what I do now making, you know, little videos or whatever or making media or presentations for clients. I'm kind of on the other side of this. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So many times I'm asking them the question. So just because it's new and different. There's a side of that that you know, that still comes back. I remember being you know, it's like being six years old again at the same time. It's kind of cool. Yeah. Because you go, you know, you're just gonna fight through that. Right. Because as an adult, you can totally like larger sense of how you fit in the world, and all I could stuff. Right. Well, I mean, what are you doing? Now. I think people want to hear your advertising, I guess is the best way to say it. It's funny. It's funny to answer that what do you do? Right. You got a production company. Yeah. I have a production company. We make we make campaigns videos jingles, web social media videos, everything from documentary style to singing musical weird wacky social media stuff, which is fun. Funny because that's what we used to do totally. And now, you're doing it professionally right? And it's what you said before we didn't have you know, we were when we were making those type of things it was pre-. Yeah. Social media. There was no Facebook at that time. So you would there was you know, the internet you could make a website and direct everyone to that for right or remember, I film. That's right. Was the big deal. It was going to happen. It was going to be the biggest day. Yeah. I fuck in. On an L A trip walked into the iphone office with a video cassette right to instead like here like put this on your on your internet. Yes. Like sounds like a hundred years ago there really wasn't that long ago. Which is really I mean, I guess it is now, but technology wise, it's it is a thousand years ago by to where we are now. And I remember when we were shooting shit on digital eight cameras. Absolutely. And hi, eight cameras, right? And a little program called I'm movie changed everything for us, everything that simple little program little program, and you and I. We're like holy shit. We can sit here. Now, we don't have to like before you, and I both got into the film business. I don't know if it was the same reasons we got into the film business. I did going back to that story being a kid nervous. Whatever going to do if you're in school if you're in college, and you kind of have that feeling of like what in the what the fuck am I going to do now? Yeah. I have to go out there and work in the real world. And no one tells you that you can do kind of what we're doing right now. That's just an option to go into doing that. Right. So I talk about that a lot on the show. I never knew that you could go out and make movies, no career or right movies. They just happened. I had a conversation with someone the I like the internship that I got out of out of out of college which was advertising because I was like should I got salvage this in some way, just something that I'm doing what was your major advertising? It was. Marketing and was only marketing because I got into college. And the guys that I looked to we're marketing majors. Right. I mean, it would have been communications theater. Right. Right. Yeah. But you know, like what the fuck do. I know I just know that I'm supposed to be here in college. I don't even know this stage. They've college would even the right thing to find a way to do that. And so then you're out on a limb, you know, your senior year, whatever you're about to graduate, and you go I'm actually going to have to go to work for somebody. And what the hell am I going to do? Here you go. You know, I created chosen emphasis right to be advertising. Wint too. Went to an agency. And in Atlanta in Atlanta. And I remember saying to somebody like within the first week that deal that you're supposed to be there. You know, eight to five you know, what the fuck what what are you doing? And I said to someone I mean, it was honest. I was like, hey. This is kinda miserable. What you do and someone there said to me. Oh, you get used to it Jesus. That's encouraging. You get used to it. Like like a limp. Yes. Yeah. That sad. I remember I temped for a little while at a place doing data entry, and I had and this kinda pre internet too 'cause I was wasting immense amounts of my day. I was it was a science at pre internet wasting time. So I really had it down. And they wanted to hire me on permanently. Because again with the being funny thing, they just liked me. Right. They're like, oh, we gotta figure checks great. We gotta figure out how to hire him on. And in my mind, I'm going I am the worst. I'm working at like a twenty percent level here. And like, you guys think I'm I'm great just because tell funny jokes in the break room. And that's when I figured out like the lie of of adulting. Yes. And being in like a job, and like, no, you just work hard and do your jobs like now that really has nothing to do with it. Okay. So that shock transitioning into going into save us getting jobs in the film business. Yeah. Because we got jobs in the film business. Like, you don't have to grow up where you don't have to grow up. And you know, there was a side of me that thought getting into the film business like knocking on doors or finding someone that I knew that actually worked into in the film business was going to be in a similar way that ladder that you were trained. Yeah. A corporate ladder in as a production assistant. Yes. Sure. But you, and I think both already knew we wanted to make content. Yes. Something silly. Whatever just entertain you more than me like you were way more organized than motivated than I was even I think because I was like I was trying to write more than make films, and you're like doing the film work. You know, I just wanted to put something out if only to entertain you guys right yet. Sure. And so and this. Will go back to that movie thing with you, by the way, too because you know, we would start, you know, we started working the in the film business. I realize in a certain sense, it was real similar to to the corporate structure in a way. And just the fact that you weren't going to work your way up a ladder. Right. But you had people around you that that had similar ideas wanted to do some things. And so we could all kind of collectively start working together to do some fun stuff together. Yeah. Right. So here comes here comes the the apple chur, the I MAC. Yeah. That technology I'm movie, and boom, you know, I started. I think I started I making a few things. I don't know if you had your computer yet. Yeah. I mean, you you inspired me you were like leading the way for sure. But this is what happened shock. You would do shit so much better so much faster because I would have some idea that I thought was a great idea like make a little music video and and slow it down, and then ramp up the video, and you would you'd call me, and you go. Hey, man, that was cool. How'd you do that? Yeah. And you'd go you'd go and do it, and it'd be like ten times better. Now. It was good. Well, I will say that like movie it's funny to look back now, and what like simple editing program that was. But let's say like movie says you can do these ten things we figured out how to do forty things. Right. And these days, they would call that a hacker whatever. And I hate using those stupid new terms, but we have the shit out of that program. But in we're doing things that they didn't like on paper. You did couldn't do and we figured out how to reverse engineer things manipulate things and we've got way more out of that. Program than probably anybody in his right, right? Blew up that damn computer so many times. Yeah. Because we refuse to go to fucking what not final cut pro. But would be adobe. Yeah. Dobie Jobe premier. I was too lazy to learn. All that. Right. So we just kept hacking. I move. Yes. What we wanted it word. There's an aspect. It's funny. I saw something I saw something yesterday. That you know, I work in final cut. Now. I saw but it doesn't really matter. Because now you have even these apps on your iphone that will be it really pisses me off because to work and final cut that you will buy plug ins, or whatever you have. And now things on your iphone, or they're like fuck every single person that has a, you know, ten eighty or four k camera walking around but the app or plug in or whatever it was said was to look like old VHS. And so we were doing things that we had to kind of look like old VHS and put a filter on it to look like film. Just because that's all we had right, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we did. I mean, some of the stuff is out there. It's it's funny. I looked at a a I think even shared technical knockout on the movie crush page, and I hadn't looked at in longtime and all that stuff looked so shitty now because of I guess YouTube just changes over the years. It's all compressed in like grainy looking like it looked better back then. So it's it's kind of a shame. 'cause we were like one of I think we put out videos number eight through twelve that were on YouTube Tollett, we were so early on then shit, the timing, man. The timing was so like we kind of both had to bail. I know right when it became acceptable in like, it's so weird. And you can't find I think you've said you've tried. To go out there and look and find that stuff. You know, I think I have the original tapes. Right. And it is it is on the long list to like get those transferred one day. But the I think the thing that we worked on that had the most potential obviously was was RV was redneck vampire, right, which do you want to tell everyone? What that project was that project? Yeah. This is how the redneck vampire came about as you. And I were already starting to kind of work on certain little things together. Right. If only again for our friends something called the Friday shout out. Yeah. Yeah. That we'd make video or something for all of our friends. It would be kind of a routine technique to make some type of content for France on a weekly level. Yeah. And that had already started. So about that time. The Blair witch project had come out, right? And let me couch this with the fact that you have always done come up with characters. That's right. The whole the whole Friday shout was based upon weird wacky character a lot that I would do so back to the motivation of the redneck vampire, and there's also the documentary that we're gonna be talking about two already a predecessor to this as well. Yeah. For sure. Is that the marketing campaign behind Blair witch? I thought was probably you know, phenomenal time. Now, I remember it was we had not seen that it's old hat now. Completely. You couldn't get away without today because it happens. Yeah. Kind of in a real world. Unfortunately, in a lot of ways all the time that hey, did you hear about this? Real everyone jump on board yet, dude. I remember distinctly sitting in scottie's apartment on Claremont and stumbling across that Blair witch, website go and fuck, dude. Do you see this shit? I think this fucking this is real it was done. So I know so they release it on what limited theaters maybe one or two have news, crews everywhere that are look at this line out the door with that website and all of us are just biding into holy shit. This. Yeah. Fantastic thing which is and whatever the ads getting killed rebound footage found footage. So we go we I think a group of us go to that theater. And I'm sitting there and go. This isn't great. Totally. I was like you. Are you bullshitting? I can't believe the campaign was so awesome. That I'm not to put them down as a movie, but I thought they got us, all duped. Sure. So that was the part that I went why couldn't you do. This have a similar type of marketed concept and make it something something completely different. Right. And so then we came up with just almost by accident on a Halloween. I got teeth to go to some. That's right. That was where it started on like a Halloween teeth. And instead of it seemed like stupid vampire it turned out to be. Yeah. It turned out of the Michael I forgot he was born that night. That was I mean, we won't tell stories about that Halloween air, but it was a very awesome Halloween night. All of us. So there there was. Yeah. He was born that night. Right. That's right. So in a funny kind of circle avent's even to where you are right now. Like that we've come full circle where we're sitting right now, Chuck that we went into this expose of Chuck Bryant. Playing Mike Anderson for some reason because I had made Ardy started making the film. That's right was documentary filmmaker. You doing what you do right now flooring? The the story of some weird person. Yeah. In Alabama that claims to be a vampire that's lived over two hundred years old. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was so much fun, man. Some of the most fun ever had in my life was shooting redneck vampire stuff with you. You know, what it's like we had. We kind of had our own little relationship. Just you and me. Exactly. Yeah. Never really knew exactly where it was going. All improv. Totally. We didn't call. It improv. But you had some awesome questions that motivated some really stupid. Awesome stuff. I thought. Well, and it was it was like. It gave me a lot of confidence to like 'cause playing the straight man is still playing a role. Yeah. And I was like pretty good straight man to Mike's tomfoolery of their as RV, and I dunno. I think you gave me a lot of confidence back then to sit down with someone in improv comedic Lii. And because I'd never done that stuff. Ginny. Your wife is a long standing improv comedian like onstage skilled and trained. But you and I had never been trained in that stuff. We like to the full you're great you in fact, the acting of yours since you would never crack up. Right. Never crack. I mean there was time. Straight out for me that you would never crack up. So there's you know, I have thought about before like even when stuff you should know started. I was like holy shit. Man. Chuck, really, he is awesome. It this. He's already kind of parlayed this. You know, what what you were doing there? Yeah. You were looking instead of you going for any kind of stupid route with it. Uh-huh. You would hold your ground with. So are you immortal? Right. Right. Yeah. And really try to dig into that yet. Because the premise was like, obviously as filmmaker Mike Anderson, I wasn't buying this guy was vampire. Yes. I was like this guy is a crackpot from Alabama. Who I think really believes he's vampire, so listen vested that and that was sort of premise of the whole thing was not guy vampire, not is. Right. What is really going on with this guy? Which as you know. Now, we missed a bit of time we missed a little timeframe with what we could have done with early social media in just a few years. But you know, now, I mean if we were to like do. That right now, it wouldn't happen. Because there's bullshit like this. It's coming out. Yeah. And not to call it bullshit. But you know, what? I mean, it's like the timing of every it just there was a little window of time Smith with that. Yeah. And even not only I think where we head of the curve on stuff like that. And even mock you mentally to a certain degree, but the vampire thing like exploded after we were doing that stuff through like true, blood, and all the twilight stuff like all that stuff came afterward to the point where if we did it now room and be like, I'm fucking sick. Man buyers are like to say that's kind of been my story Chuck over achieving underachiever. It was fun stuff though. It was it was great what should work. Can we direct people to watch? A love the stuff, you're doing Dr Draper. He's a local that Narian here in Atlanta. That you're you're doing some funny stuff. Like, I told you I heard Emily in the other room the other day, just laughing her -at's off. I was like what are you watching? It's Mike stuff. Dr draper. Yeah. We're doing right now, we're doing a a web sewed with Dr Draper from the village vets. So it's kind of a combination of documentary to some scripted who some musical stuff it's on the lords of Sapolu Vinnie. Oh, yeah, right now. And so we don't know we don't know where it's going to go what running with it. You know, the first five episodes were doing right now. So it's awesome. It will. Thank you. He's great. He's awesome. Yeah. And it's all it's all like behind all of that is like a love of animals and trying to get awareness in the word out. It's not just like silly stuff at a veterinarian. He he's he's great. You know, the inter you're right. Yeah. I mean, he hasn't seen one of our animals in longtime. 'cause you know, they have so many doctors there, but yeah, we still go there, Greg. He's the best who knew he was funny. No kidding, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Let me tell you about Pete who loved hockey and always wanted to play in the NHL Pete played since he was three and begged his mom to let him stay on the ice. Why some nights he even slept in his hockey skates? Pete practiced and practiced until one day when he was forty seven Pete realized he just wasn't that good. So he threw his skates in the trash. But then he heard how gyco proud partner of NHL good save money on car insurance. So he switched and saved a bunch. So it all worked out. All right, dude. Well, let's get into Vernon Florida. We'll chat about air Moore's for a minute. Because when you asked me earlier like the first documentary you saw surely it happened in high school. But when I really remember truly getting into documentaries like seeking them out as their own art form was early college through the direct influence of Jenky of Jason jenkinson. So for everyone listening. He's a friend of mine at a worked with in college who was in retrospect, very influential in my life. He was my first. I was coming out of being like church kid in high school and fairly limited worldview, get to college, and I meet this weirdo. Who's as you know, one of the great human beings. But Jason dislike Judy knew be listening to this music and look at the documents in this artist and all the stuff that I had never even heard of before outsider, art, fringe art, unknown filmmakers, and like just open my eyes to everything and so Jason huge debt and told him that. But I remember distinctly watching Vernon Florida with clay clay FAI from and Jenkins in college. And it was one of those deals where you know, how you discover something and back then it was there was so much more discovery. 'cause you know, you didn't have social media. And or this is actually even pre internet. We didn't even fucking computers in our houses in college at first, and it's like come over, man. I gotta show you something. So everyone comes over pop in that VHS. And then you feel them out of the corner. Your I like looking at you for your reaction, totally. And that's exactly my first viewing of Vernon Florida. Was these guys just like giddy and intimidation of sharing this with their friends? Right. You know, you know, what I think was it jeans was a you was at Klay five I feel maybe all three of you guys were involved with. I remember say mister show something else, maybe around music, something Asia's d d and Vernon Florida. I can remember night. And here's here's the thing. Because when you have influences like this, we have influences of someone like Janki that comes in. And shows you something there is that influence with it. And then all of your friends, and sometimes you. I think you take that to be that's kind of our click thing that came together, the weird thing or magical thing or whatever it is with Vernon is that. Yes. Within our group. We would always say the lines of each one of these characters, and we can get into like everyone of these characters how magical each of them were. But threw out time. I have been places I was at the porter bar one time talking to someone about Vernon Florida years later like within the last ten years, right? Then I'm there, and I said Vernon Florida and some kid ten years younger than me came back. And he said, hey, man, you know, look, I'm sorry. I don't mean to bother you that you just say Vernon Florida. It's one of those movies, right? Where we need here. It in a room said out loud, you were drawn to go speak with that person about it. Right. You know, you would never. Ever. Hear someone mentioned Vernon Florida. Oh, yeah. Whatever you would have to go up and say, hey, listen, I'm a Verner. So so what is it? What is it? I mean, did you like why? Yeah. I mean, I'm asking you. Because when we talked about this. It just randomly came to me when we were texting about this. Yeah. It would be Vernon Florida. Sure. And there's a zillion movies. We could talk about that came out that I was like less. Let me just go look at this. Again. We've both seeing that movie probably thousand times if not more that I watched it again say today, I watch the two nights ago. Right. And there's a same character. You've seen him before know it by heart practically. Every one of those. They're just like magic. But. I've thought like sake Coen brothers writing characters. The Coen brothers are characters are so rich in the dialogue the beats or whatever. Every one of these guys is not just Hillary shops Turkey hunter, right? Every one of them if you were to cast, right? Yeah. Oh, look at here. You couldn't you go. That's the fucking guy. Got a cast that guy. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And Turkey hunter and the old guy. It's like he fell into some kind of magic. Right. And it's I think people do like getting bet your question like what is it about it? That would make you go over to someone in a room stranger who you just heard say the words in Florida talk to them. It is this little like treasure and part of it is that it isn't super well known still accept among you know, the cult following. But it's like it's like being in the club. You know of like, you know, about the the funny thing that no one else knows about you know, it never was. I mean, even when trying to do some quote unquote research on this. There's not a lot out there. Right. I mean, you know, the story. The original story is. So aero Morris goes to make a movie documentary about Ed geene shoot some footage hooks up with Verna Herzog as his mentor, and they are able to raise two thousand dollars and what he's going to do. And I didn't know about this part. But he's gonna go dig up a body and be a grave Brabham, basically. As part of this game project serial killer, Ed geene, he decides not to do that Verna Hertzog his his heals your money. He gives them a cash envelope of two thousand dollars, supposedly aero Morris. Those at the hotel window Furner goes out in the parking lot gets it brings it back gives it to him again and says, please don't do that again mushoo. So this was well, he did he cook the natives fucking shoe as very famously. If aero Moore's finished a project, and so he this that was the seed money that sent aero Morris to Vernon Florida this tiny panhandle town in in Florida inland. Not on the beach. Right. Very important. There's a lot of Florida's and this is one of them to investigate. What was known as nub city bright, which was a town in Florida that was called nub city because in the fifties and sixties I believe a third of the dismemberment policies. Eight out in the country originated in Vernon Florida imagine because people are fucking shooting off in cutting off limbs as insurance scant, and who was the first person at found that the little, you know, small wording within their insurance policy that they can just blow off their foot and cash and nobody was such a small town. I mean think it it actually peaked in the early eighties. When he was there like eight hundred and something people, right? So you know, how it is. In those towns word gets around that, you know, Jimmy shot his foot off on purpose and scammed the insurance company and it worked. And he got five grand. So then all of a sudden everyone starts doing it air. Moore's goes down there. To do this documentary on city gets frightened by supposed- death threats. I think even says on here. Hold on is it here while there's a great mental floss article, by the way about nub city and aero basically says that. These you know, these rednecks right threatened him about this documentary. So he just changed plans was like this town is kinda great. I'll just make it about you people. We won't talk about limbs getting blown. That's right. So that's the story behind Vernon Florida. Because it seems we are like why how of all places. Did this Boston, Ian, you know, coastal elite documentary filmmaker end up there. That's how I ended up there. In the characters that he found. Oh, right. Yeah. Are just unbelievable. Yet. It's one of these things that I've seen so much over the years that watching it as a forty almost forty eight year old last night and through the study lens of the show like really examined it as a film, and like the decisions he made on how long to hang with the character win to introduce a new character. Why these characters to begin with, you know, and like is there a through line and a lot of things stood out that will get to. But one of them was religion is kind of peppered throughout this thing in a way. I'd never really noticed because we just laugh at it. Because this fucking funny here comes out. Here comes a part of the Turkey hunter. Again, he's gonna say this part. But there's a lot more going on than once you get a little older and look at it for five hundred. That's right. You know? Yeah. I felt the same way watching it again little yesterday. And today that not only the cuts that he made. Cuts that he made on a particular character that he may have spent the day hunting right with Henry shops that. You know, I was I was going this guy. He found some kind of of magic within this or luck. And there's religion again that whole religion thing toward the end of the film. But it's funny that the the car with the jewel. Yeah. And he's taken the photo of put it up there to the land star all these galaxies. And he mentioned that he says, you know, how does how does that happen? Right. Luck luck. When something turns out, you say, gee, I'm lucky that was the character. The character says that and I was like Albert bitter Ling is his name. I never had picked that up before. Like, we're this is going the flow of right? The film at this point in time. Right that. You know, I felt like how did I miss that? All these years because we've recited these recited every line. Yeah. Yeah. You know? But and then it goes right into that. The luck with religion toward the end of that. Right. So the very first thing you hear is that character Albert piddling say you mean, this is the real world. I never thought of that. And that's like it. I think it was Morris called him his cartesian philosopher in the swamp. And he said that he starts the movie with voice over line. That's still one of my favorites in all of film. And that's Earl Morris talking about bitterly words there. Well, and we have laughed. I mean, he's tied for first among three characters this movie as my favorite. But I'd never like I said, we should laugh about it. So I never realized that this guy is he's always philosophizing, and he's usually saying something kind of profound in beautiful. Yes. But it's all you see is like this dumb redneck. Right. But that's not true. Not true. There's a lot more going on there. The world's about the world's when he's talking about that the luck luck luck. When you see it turns out, you say what was that? Gee, I'm lucky he says, what would everyone of these stars is a different world, right? Right. The feld stone or conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Man. Yeah. I mean, he used the line still, you know, when he's looking out over the river about, you know, look at all that water. That's just the top of it. Like, I've dropped that line on a drop that line on a on a cruise ship. One time at night the bunch of people on the top deck looking out the ocean. Someone's like look at all that water. It's like, yeah. That's just the top of it. And everyone was like, whoa. This guy. Albert, bitter Ling, and you know, this is a movie that has been retro actively derided in some circles is like kind of patronizing in a lot of the people in Vernon like came down here made fun of us. But I I don't see it that way. In aero Morris said this an interview he said, they're all pretty wonderful and have great affection for them. I haven't heard from the long time. So if you write something he's talking to the article guy, the author he said, if you write something please tell everyone in Vernon I said, Hello. Any also tweeted recently like a year ago about bitter Ling, he said, our bitterly one of my favorite characters in Vernon Easter tell me, you know, arrow, you don't break the rules the rules break you. But it is that sort of redneck philosophy that says kind of basic, but also deepened some ways. Well, it's it's it's very Florida too. And I can say that because my family is all from a small town in Florida. Really? Yes. From zephyr hills. Where's that zephyr hills? Just north of Tampa. Okay. So people know of for hills now because of zephyr hill spring water. Okay. All right. Yeah. But you know, when when when I was young I'd go to my aunt's every summer and zephyr hills. And it was it looked somewhat like Vernon yet while our family was Pensacola, which is not very far from her. But but on the beach, but this was in the mid early eighties on the panhandle before it got like really over developed. So it was kind of a sleepy little Florida town, and Florida always has that kind of the reputation for chur, the weird or whatever. And I think that goes back to what? You're saying that people say that he was making fun of you know, I don't think he was. But there is this kind of dynamic that we always say about and there's some weird stuff that goes on a Florida Florida, man, Florida man, another one. Yeah. You know, that's somewhat recently that we could say we'll there is your somewhat of a reboot of this Vernon Florida in just characters that in Florida, man. Yeah. For sure but aero mortis. I mean, he he started all this. Absolutely. I don't know if he started the fascination with Florida, but I mean, this is sort of the proto version of a lot of right stuff that followed, you know. Well, here's here's one even remember this. Okay. Or if you're going to jumping into another character, which is Henry shops. Yes. So he's the Turkey hunter. You go ahead and tell the what happened with you. Because you had a real life connection with this guy that just still blows me away. Okay. Henry shy. When we're reciting lines from this movie, and and pretty much certainly three characters you could use to recite lines all the time. And we'd have him on loops somewhat, you know, throughout when we were much younger. We say those lines all the time Henry shops, aka the Turkey hunter in Vernon Florida has some of the most awesome, scenes and lines. Right. So in fact, maybe the star we'd say maybe the star of the movie. Yeah. For sure that. Years later. I even started thinking about how long is this guy really going to be around. Right, and this movie eighty one shy shawny nine eight. That's right and came out in eighty one right? And this would have been two thousand and four thousand five. Yeah. That just something about the idea of of. Mortality, maybe you know. I hadn't even started thinking about my own which I do a lot more now. But you start thinking about these things that made an impact on you. Right. And this guy thought, you know, he's brought us so much. Joy. We save these lines all the time when I met Ginny. My wife, you know, one of the first things that movies on all the time. And she starts saying these lines and all the different people say, you know, Vernon Florida in its this guy. Right. So it would probably be easier nowadays to find research, someone sure, but I started digging around. Not even being able to know who like Albert bitter Ling. Or Henry sharps was but somewhere in like a byline or some kind of raincoats for the movie found some names research those and found out that Henry shops was in fact, the Turkey hundred from some newspaper article because it's not like at the end of Vernon Florida said starring Henry shops Turkey. That's right. You had to find you to work just to get their fucking names. Absolutely. So I find this name because something else had happened around Vernon or a Pensacola or something in that area may have been known from the movie Vernon floor to lead. So I, you know, then I'm calling information. Henry sharps. There was a Henry shops junior son. I get senior. Call Henry sharp senior he answers the phone. Dude and some backstory on him. He was he owned a restaurant. He owned an oyster bar, right? So he'd run his oyster bar, and he'd go Turkey Hon. Right. Right. That was his life. So we were going down there. And again, this this goes back to me saying the over achieving underachiever of life that I have been you, and I working for the minute that we were in our our existence. Yeah. To for a company to have just be in the geographic location of Vernon that we could have gone over there. 'cause Henry shocks was like I still have that Turkey trophy right from the movie that was gonna be mine. He's going to give this to you. That's right. See guys, I don't know. People are following this. You struck up a friendship over the phone. Henry like did you call and say like, hey, I love this movie. And you brought me joy and Mike. Let's talk. I I did I was like. I mean, it was so surreal Chuck because here is this guy that you've said his words so many times, I know us he was like the star completely. Yeah. That. I was I wanted to know more. Yeah. Yeah. And he had even said come on over you can even see it when you when you look at when you look at the movie, he he does the story of the three turkeys that he killed eleven inch beard on each one of those. But when when will the camera goes to find each one of those UC above that, there's a lot more. Yeah. And there's a lot more stories. And so Henry, Mr. sharp said my come on over, you know, over here. And you know, I'll go ahead and tell you I'll go ahead and give you that. When there's a bunch of them over here. And it just didn't happen, and you know, in the window of time the window of time like the other window of time. It's slips away. Right. Because we happen to be down there having to do some other work, and it was close enough. But not so close we couldn't just like drop and we live, right? Should have should have. Yeah. But didn't and he was in pretty poor health old. Yep. He passed away way. And that was it. Yeah. Man. But you know, what like? It's easy to retroactively sort of beat yourself up about not going there in person and getting this Turkey trophy. But like you did it you call them, and you did strike up a friendship with them. And I think it meant something to him like you played phone messages and stuff, and you could always hear the delight in his voice when he heard from you because I mean, we were like bet you get bugged all the time. Right. You know, 'cause you're fucking Henry Vernon Florida. And it's like this movie so important to us, and he was I think he was delighted that you took interest. He was great he'd call. I mean, I still have still have recording. So really, yes. So in like a. In kind of a locked box would fire box with all those old friendly neighbor, you know, movies and stuff like that. They're just got locked in. There is also these recordings of Henry shops and an old VHS of Vernon Florida, which now you can just look it up on the internet. Yeah. I wonder if in ever lucky enough to talk to Errol Morris for any reason. I'm going to tell him about that. Sure. He'd be think that was pretty cool. Yeah. I almost tried. When I lived in LA. I was when I was saying, you know, air marshal law TV commercials still does and he had kind of the same crew he worked with and I worked with a PA that was on the air Morris crew. And also, I gotta get me. And dude you got to get in. And he was sort of like, you know, see what I can do everyone wants to fuck and work on these jobs. Like, you know, we'll see you got any weed. Yeah. Maybe I can set you up with something. What are you gonna do for me? So I never got to work with them with shame. But yeah, Henry is one of the great characters and not an again, it's not just like, oh that shit is so funny, but he's got a lot to say about life. And I think it's no secret that he that Turkey hunting is a metaphor for a lot of things about life. You know from from his mouth to to our ears. I think you can learn something by listening to enter shops -absolutely, there's just there's something just about he reminds me a lot of my uncle. Yeah. Uncle Ralph like comes from a small town like this as well. That year is okay. Henry shops will say things that that back to say if the Coen brothers that you go could you write something like that? Right. So good that seems maybe so reduce. A Cumulus or contradictory. Yeah. Right. That he says, okay. One of those again, it should be a poem did. So. And I won't do it as Henry, but occasionally you call a big away from some hens, but very seldom I'd rather not even try to call one away. Well, you always try always try. But you can't do it. I never have. Uh-huh. Very very seldom. Yeah. Right. Uh-huh. Kind of hilarious yet at the same time the way he says it in the you know, where he's coming from. He seems like just such a genuine down to earth guy. Yeah. When when you're C him say these things. Yeah. That you want to hang out with this guy, Betty had the damn friendliest voiced apar- in Florida, panhandle. That's right. You know, is that great Earl would come in Aaron Earl. Make nick. And you know, he's about nake snake snake became mayor. Oh, he told you this. Yes. Really because you are asking about everything everything everyone. Everyone had the Meyer. Snake was not very good. Snakes platform was strong. Silence. I don't think. It's a good listener. You want that Nepal addition. I mean, we'll go through some of these lines too. I mean, they're all my favorite line. So it's really hard to pick. But obviously want to Henry's favourite lines for me is. Talk in talking about Turkey's. They smart bird smartest. We got in this country in this country. What does that mean is he thinking about like what L he's not as smart as the the Chinese whatever? In this country. It's so great. So you're he's jumping editorially in filmmaking wise, he's kind of spending a lot of time with Henry and an Albert first. And then after the great seen about the diamond Neo. What are they looking for? You're looking for hollow. Right after that you dislike. The punch to the funny bone with he ever seen a man's brains. I just out of nowhere in this guy. You're already loving what you're watching in. Jason her giggling at me watching this. And then the brain Bolci pops on the screen. I have seen him scoop demo- picked him up brain. Like buying brains. That's like that's the punch on top of the punch. I know it's so good. And watching it a couple of days ago. I was like, especially, you know, everyone is just so much more advanced emotionally in as far as political correctness. And I was thinking this guy mentally disabled. Right. Should I be laughing at this? I don't think he is not think so either I think he's an old country guy. I think so as well. I mean could he had little shovel? Maybe so, yeah, there's you know, there's another, you know, one of the other guys says at some point where he's just rambling on about. He's on about the person said got to shells, go take our lives, you know, with the gun. Toe to kill yourself, a rifle basically how he's gonna kill himself and the other old guy that you picture they're sitting outside of this garage all day. He kind of motions to him. He said weren't known a his burns working. Yeah. Yeah. Talking about the guy telling the story that you know, that all of this is just, you know, recorded filmed at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Dude. I'm glad you brought that guy up because that scene it's didn't get his name couldn't find his name, but the brain bowl guy. Yes. The old timer who we're gonna talk about was sitting in the middle. And then this new guy he's a fucking asshole. It never really occurred to me. But watching him he's onscreen for forty seconds in. He takes to fucking potshots at brain bowl guy. We're none of his brain. Yeah. That one and he has another one. He insults them like twice in a row and the thirty seconds of screen time Becca addict. He's the villain villain of our story. Verna fluid filling. Oh boy. Then you get characterize go right into the cop. Yes. With very brief intro, just maybe a minute to introduce him. And this is the police officer who's just he's bored. Like Eissa laugh at him about small-time, copper, whatever. But it's very clear now watching it he's bored as hell completely. And you know, another thing that's contradictory to all the things that happened throughout this film is he's bored as hell he says nothing happens. Yeah. And later on he shows a bullet came through the windshield almost hit him, which by the way, I had never paid attention enough to it before to this is right around the time that Albert bitter Ling saying luck. You're just lucky right? Yeah. Yeah. That you're right. He's bored. And he is he is one of the lesser characters. I would say, yes. But it's funny that one party talking about. The various crimes, and he he rattles off basically, shoplifting things that cost less than a dollar. He's like, well, you know, we get some cases of people stealing, you know, like, Bobby pins or any names off like three things that are Mike do those all costs like seventy and that's the crime in Vernon. It's great the other thing that really got me to is that just documentary wise like Earl Morris went on to do. I mean, he's to meet still one of my favorite documentarian. But he went on to be very. More highly produce stuff, right and a little more slick for lack of a better word, still very effective, but like this documentary in it's pure form. Which is sid a camera down on some sticks. Sit next to that camera. Right and fuck and talk to somebody. Yes. And then not only the talking part. Not talking uncomfortable. Silence. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because it's really hard for us at times to you know, he'll ask that question of these people. And as you know that that camera would just stay stay rolling. Yeah. And he would just stand there, and that has been a technique that I think even use win he became more advanced than started using the whole enteric Tron thing that he set up which the Tara Tron as was kind of like the teleprompter that he hid the camera behind. Yeah. He'll ask these questions and leave someone long enough that they feel that have just start talking rattle things off. That's the secret. I think the documentary filmmaking is to shutting the fuck up. Right. And this was at a time where he was shooting on film didn't have a lot of money. And that's like that's a brave choice because that kind of. You know, I don't wanna get too precious about it. But when you don't have much film, and it's burning through that fucking camera Willie money burning through that camera, and he just has the gumption to sit there and let that happen. That's like I'm sure that was hard to do for him. I mean, it's tough. It's ballsy to just let that, but you know, what, you know. I certainly know a lot of times that that we're shooting. It's right. Then when you turn off the camera did some kind of magic hat, and that's today with when you shoot for. Forever forever. Right. Yeah. It's you know, it's it's frustrating at times because you feel like. If you just left this running at all times, but then who wants to have to deal with all of that footed where it is or whatever to get to. But back to what you're saying for Errol Morris to do that at that time with film was crazy crazy is ballsy an risky. Yeah. Then you're going to run out of film. And then someone else, you know, Turkey hunter Henry shops or someone else's going to have this moment. Yeah. Which you probably happened. I'm liver. Well that just happened. Just happened. We'll get them to. The one the cops lines that I thought was so funny that never noticed until two nights ago was. You know, I don't he's sitting out there. Just for context everyone basically like sitting on the highway just watching people drive by seeing if they're going to fast to pull them over. And he goes, you know, I don't hide I don't hide, but there are a few places as sit where where you can hardly see me. So he makes a big point to talk about how it's not a speech bunch of places. I go sit where you can barely see me. And you know, that I think the mundane like Errol Morris new like he was important part of the story not a lot happens. But that's the point completely is this cop just sits around all day long. And it's from you know, from the few shots where where he shows the wide shots. Not very many. Yeah. Opening shot where you show the town and the mosquito truck mosquito. Yes, Kito truck just driving through just blow in God knows what kind of pesticides and massive amounts of pesticides. Maybe that was the the old guys issue. Maybe that contributed. Yeah. They've been sucking down with skied adjust for forty years, or whatever I didn't realize that too that I had never put together. Albert bitter Ling being. He is credited with the music for for this Phil did he play that opening bit. Yes. Which would have been like him humming through her Monica. Maybe I think so I was trying to figure out what that was. I mean, I've heard it a million times. But again, two nights. Fuck is that yes, it's got a harmonica to it. I think he's like humming is the harmonica invented his own technique. I'd always wondered. I wonder which one was as he credited on the film. I didn't know that score or music. And that's the only time that there's any kind of music with. Yeah. I mean, this is very low fi, right? Which is what makes it so great also too. I just loved it. There's not a. I mean, I guess there wouldn't be a cleaned up version because it is what it is. But it's still like on, you know, apple movies or whatever looks like a VHS tape. Yes. You're you would pop in. You know, I liked it. It exists. Like that still. Well, see now, Chuck they could shoot it on four K. And remember, the I told you that could just downgrade it I wondered though night when I was watching it. I was like I love the look of it. But sometimes I wonder like what it would look like if it was in shot with like modern equipment, right? You know, like the very same film because there are some beautiful shots in here. Yeah. All that Turkey stuff in the woods at sunrise. And and the that just happened though shots. Yeah, they're beautiful. They are even with that grainy old film. You know? I would like to see a super Chris version will maybe we can do. In recites junior. What's he like? Do you ever talk to? I did not talk to hinder shop junior. He's probably close to our age. Right. He's a little bit older thing. Okay. He had some medical issues too. They all did. I mean, this is. Yeah, there's a mosquito. Trump. And a lot of diabetes. Probably. Diabetes. He had type two diabetes. Henry Henry junior. And I think dad did too. Yeah. I'm certainly not making fun of that. It's very sad actually to then the old timer pops in. He may actually he may be my MVP a love that guy so much, and I remember the he tells that great story about the mule the dead mule full of while. I purchase completely. He drags me. Allow hundred how many? Hundred nineteen. No that's one hundred one hundred nineteen times. But yeah. Hundred eleven fourteen person that just as old as man, and he tells this story. He's probably told that story a thousand times over the years any still giggles, and is delighted until story and it's just adorable. Like reminds me of you know, us being from the south. There's a lot of affection for these old southerners in their stories and stuff, and it make you feel like this guy makes me feel a lot of them do throughout this movie. But let's say, you know, like, you said growing up in the south around these type of characters there is this old guy. Yeah. That you know, you heard him tell the story like this before and not just how he tells it his mannerisms when he's talking about that will you'll in the river broke off out of their the way. He just moves don't, Geno. I know that guy. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted him to be Granddad, unfortunately. So with the old timer to I remember the first time I saw that sought with clay Jason when he goes over to his those cages on his property and his peeling off the top of the cages of these two old tin roofs. And a remember having so much anticipation, like what is he in a pull out of that fucking cage era goes, you know, and the first time it said big old tortoise tortoise which a gopher right as gopher. Yeah. Which is. But there's a call the gopher tortoise. That's right. But in Morris is on record saying like I thought a lot of them were saying things wrong and making mistakes. And he said I thought it was so funny. They call gopher and he said years later learned there is a gopher tortoise, and it's cute too. That he says you notice that he is like the setup for him going to tell the story that he pulls it out, and he says probably to Errol off. He goes put her put it back. Yeah. Yeah. Like you want to put it back. Now, I'm telling you the story and move onto the next door strike a stool. Well, and at the end to with the with the couple with the growing sand. Yes that they got from white sands national monument. He was laughing about that aero Morris. And he said years later, I found out that white sands, it's gypsum, and he said if you move, gypsum it can actually grow. If you get it to a different climate. There's the way the water leaches out or something he said the same can actually appear to grow. So they may not have been crazy. Yes. And you know, we just took that to the fact of the era desert drying out the land next to it that they had heard this. It's growing, right. Not that you put it in a jar. Right. And it's going to be like tomato plant. Well, then he pulls out the possum the old guy. Does he pulls out the tortoise in the possum just to finish that little line of thought? And he says. He says he said, I was only fellow that knew what to do with a possum, his friend. Yes. You gave it to him. Just such a sweet line. Then they go back to Henry. And he's I mean, I think it's he tells a lot of different hunting stories, but I think that one in the middle where he's I'm tired of this. I'm going to kill that Turkey where he tells that sort of epic story stalking that one Turkey. That's to me like a hang on. This is the favorite of all his stories when he gets is this when he gets lost or a couple of times, which is funny. I made a note of that too. Like, he's experienced woodsmen, and he talks a couple of out of the as a good sense of direction, and he just can't say that allowed. Well, he does that at one time when he's looking at his hands. He when he says, you know planet in a row, and he looks at his hands like four different ways. How he's going to show you how planet pines are actually in a row right right now. But this is a story about I think it starts off with the my God. That's the best diary medicine in the world Turkey Turkey. Diarrhea? And he tells a story about whistling any any looked up. That's right. Whistle. And he whistled and at and Powell he look I was that the end of that one. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the end of it Powell, and that's him right there. This may be two different stories uncomplaining because the other one was when he talked about the that one Turkey he was hunting and they got right up on. And he was just. And he said tried to shoot his head bow and shot him Menendez road emotes. And big hole in the ground right there. And that's the one where he burps in the middle of it. And he over explains the whole deal with the tire tracks. You know, what I'm saying because we had just been through there. Yes. If you walk across a dirt road and then a tire Kovac through and you don't see the tracks. Yeah. Then you get that they've been. Yeah. And he. Amazing. But he's he's introducing is this movie is only fifty five minutes long. You don't get to that couple till the last ten minutes of the movie, so he's introducing people throughout right, which I thought was interesting as documentarian to not just say like and the first twenty minutes like here, the eight people or whatever. Right. So like, he's popping people. And he has that worm guy. Mike halfway through the movie, you know, the, you know, they they tell you how to raise them in the books. Wrong. Here's a question though. Chuck that you may have seen in this research that like you're mentioning say the couple with the sand. Yeah. And you know, there are certain characters throughout that are throughout the whole film. But then there's someone that he's introducing later on. In. They're all magical. Yeah. Is there anyone in the notes that you have found a research that you found that aero Moore's had left out of this now mind you leaving out anyone that was involved with. Nope. Sit right. Yeah. But did he just catch magic all the time with turning a camera on these people to? I know I wondered about that like is there, you know, directors cut out there somewhere. Well, maybe we'll get to ask era. Once we have that is they're cutting room floor shit. Right. It's just like four more characters that we never even met. Because there's, you know, everyone of these are like, you know, like we're saying it's magic. But. When you get inside the church. Yeah. And inside the church when we go into the air, the preacher the verify for sermon. There has to be a point where Errol Morris has to look around and go holy fucking shit. Be in bunked, totally. I thought that before I thought, you know. Ashton Kutcher is jumping out. The side of the wall of the church because their way, and I'd like to see the time line of light. When all this was filmed. If he got had have you already shot the couple with a sand, or maybe they're at wherever this is you get in this church and you went holy shit. This is actually happening right now. Yeah. Yeah. But it's important to have therefore experience. Yeah. A relatively young aero Morris as the documentarian. I'm sure was just pinching himself. Right. Like, and you and I grew up. I mean, you went to church and stuff grown up. Right. Right. These sort of Baptist in Florida. I mean, this was yeah. That was that church. Yeah. We like we saw so many sermons like this where now that I'm you know, older and outside of that world looking back and looking at this guy. It's like they they would run out of material completely in half to come up with that sermon every week though, there's only so many. You know, biblical stories you can tell over and over again. Right. So I saw some like this. Yes, where they would whales. Just a bunch of bullshit completely. You know? But you know, it's always coming back to the last thing though, too. You know, what you have to do is come in, except it's all these to the invitation the invitation that all these the data, and he was still able to parlay their use of the word therefore suspicious suspiciously being used which it wasn't a hundred times says him. Leads into the invitation to come on down and accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Yeah. Which is the only thing he ties it in is just by saying like if you if you wanted there for. For. Come on down. This is what you need. But it was it's theater, man. It's like I saw that every single Sunday was this performance telling a story to lead to the tells them has a moral that leads you to be you know, to the invitation. It's all about that invitation even says in the bulletin invitation. That's right every week. And you know, what Chuck I have certain theories about people that have been brought up within that that that leads to to their minds almost being wired to always lead into the preacher weather. He's talking about their four experience just trust. What I'm saying? Yeah. Into the invitation, right? Yeah. So I thought even now watching it again to watch this yesterday and today that feels like that one scene. Really works. Now as much as ever if I didn't appreciate it for all that it was then everything that we have going on right now. I could see that. I appreciate this seen a lot more now. Yeah. And like the I don't know if remorse trying to make some big statement on the liberalism of certain Christian faiths, and but like before therefore seen sermon he's he's being interviewed. And he's talking about basically like praying getting prayers answered to go buy shit, right? Whether its land or a van, and and he literally believes that God delivered a van to him when or a property to him when in fact, when you listen to the story, it's like now, he met with a real estate guy said, you know, what I got another Gabby here. Who has our car salesman on? I know a guy on a van you need a man. It's right in your price range that is God performing a miracle. And it's really just a car salesman selling a car or it's their four experience. It's really funny, man. Goodness me. Even have therefore sermon capitalized, you know. They're. There are certain people that I mean, we've said this about the the lines. You know, you know, Ronnie land right Orleans. You'll even just throw every now. And then we'll say we'll just throw a text about something that point that happens, and he would just say. Therefore experiences. Well, what's funny? And I think Errol Morris might have been trying to make a statement because I don't know if you noticed, but right before therefore sermon. Which is one hundred percent bullshit. Yes. Not inspiring. Not not does it talk about. Jesus is worker. You know, it's one hundred percent bullshit. We can all agree. But right before that is the scene with brain Bowman saying something, actually. Not inspiring. But like religiously significant because it's the scene where he's talking about that little soliloquy about God, creating the earth, and he said, it was good and very good. And you know, he'll give you what does he say? Like the. God is good. Very good. And he'll give you the end something really kinda. Sweet. Yes. That he says and a little uplifting. Like, he'll give you the power of, you know, something I can't remember, but it's actually kind of touching. Yes. And then immediately goes to this preacher. That's talking about praying for van in house and therefore experiences, and like which one is the real, you know, right? Sage right here. Right. The guy who can move his foot on the ground in one direction and four balls brains. For in other words, five things. Oh, another bit of like true philosophy in beauty is the river guy who I don't think he's the old timers ear is he he's not. I don't think different guy different guy. It looks like he's brothers. You know, again, it's hard to tell with that. Because of the the shadows. When he's when he's going through that river talking. We're talking about God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like he's sort of rambling. But he's he's always saying something beautiful in that team. Clearly when he talks about well, actually, this is Albert has that great scene at the end where he talks about the drop of rain in the sunlight might look more beautiful than a diamond. Absolutely. But because he saying it in that voice. It's just so easy to laugh that off it's right? But it's actually quite beautiful. It is and the same with the river guy. The river guy that it's it's not whole scene. All put. Together. What he looks like his cadence saying someone that doesn't have faith, right? And he's saying will win when something good for you. You know, one something good happens. What do you call that God? And he goes, no. That's that just happens. Right. That just happens emphasizing that just happened less less call that of that just happens. God. Yeah. That at that point can go right back to what we just said the sermon. Yeah. Right. That you have kind of like this. The two sides of it that is it. Is it that just happens? That's God that happened or is the the he was lucky which also bitterly says within wedged within that. Yeah. Or just had a good real estate agents. Right, right. Yeah. Fiddling Scott to be dead. Oh, he's dead. Sure. He's dead. In fact, I think everybody probably mar because other than potentially snick. Fucking great is. That of snake is the only one around. Didn't even a word in the movie. We got a mention the our bitterly actually tried to take a picture of the moon by holding opera glasses up to camera, which is great. He dismisses for a second. Because he was like. Take a look I held it. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. He says you what by by a cheap crappy Cam, you get a crabby pitcher. Yeah. Yeah. Again philosophy. Everything's guy says is philosophical except for one of my favorite lines. They should run about a town on a rail tarred feather next time, we'll give you the hot seat, buddy. That you see you see wheels turning because he goes. Progresses. He goes runabout. Rod run out of town. Hold a rail. He goes tarred. Pardoned fettered. And then my last great line. I have down here. From Henry is. The dry he's from a drunk gag puke. Just nerves doesn't dry. But the nerves that come up. I it affects me and after the end of it. It's not only how he says is the side look. Yeah. The dry he gag and pew even nothing, but you. Well, he gets the last line in the movie, you know, they have that great finish with him in the boat now in the swamp. Yeah. In the last line of the very of the movie now, he's counting all the buzzards. Right in the trees counts up to like forty or something one at a time. And he has I wish there were many turkeys as our. So great. So I wish there was many turkeys as our buzzards great. And that like, he's not goofing off kidding around. He's he had a moment there where he saw those buzzards thought, man. What of those were all Turkey completely his life can kill Chuck his life. He says early in the maybe the first thing that he's in when he said he had said like kind of leading back to this moment. I close my business down. Yeah. To go Turkey hunting. Uh-huh. You see right now. How important is just this is his life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In this like. It really struck me how you can make a documentary about whatever. Places that are fantastic amazing events historical events important things. And like Errol Morris went to the Florida panhandle and the late seventies and early eighties and documented a nothing town. And it's it's there forever now. Right. Like, no one would ever known. And I think that is important. Absolutely. I don't think you should all be some fantastical story about a famous person. Like now, we know it central panhandle was like in nineteen eighty and who are these people? Absolutely didn't eat a lot didn't have to have a whole bunch of music note didn't have to have a whole bunch of anything other than just these magical characters that may be. Gee, just lucky. Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's it man. I can't wait to see it again. I should just bought it. I had a copy on VHS, but he was VCR. Right. I still have a copy on the VHS somewhere. I got two bucks. Hey, Mario Lopez here. And I really hope you can check out my new podcast, listen to Mario LT. Am going to be having some really cool, casual in depth conversations with a lot of amazing and fascinating people some of your favorite celebrities, everyday heroes. Newsmakers even some of my friends and a few of my family members definitely side of me that you've never seen before. So please, listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right, dude. Well, we'll finish here with five questions. Actually. I usually do an Ebert thing. I don't remember what he gave this. But it did find an Ebert quote. Yeah. Ebert said Vernon Florida does not exactly make fun of it subjects. It has too much affection for them. But it sees them as originals who sometimes let their enthusiasms run away with them. So he didn't think he was making fun of either. Yeah. And I agree. All right, dude. Five questions. What was the first movie? You saw in the theater first movie. I saw in the theater was Fantasia. Okay. Think someone else's said that I was bored to tears. I can you know why? Because Fantasia kinda sucks. I remember. I mean, it made a huge had a huge effect on me. Yeah. Because I was born to tears. Yeah. All right. I are rated movie you saw I. Are rated film also had a huge effect on me. It was tunnel vision came out, and I'm gonna say. In nineteen seventy six seventy seven. So we're talking about you know, how old was I you probably eight or nine. Seven seven or so. Yeah, right eight that who knows why. My folks took me to the theatre to see tunnel vision. It was basically a series of wacky vignettes. Right. Never heard of that. And they're kind of like say Laffin, or, you know, weird wacky vignettes like Kentucky Fried movie very much like that that I don't even remember anything about Chuck other than there's one scene where a bunch of people or been over with their bare asses hanging out. And it's as if it's a commercial and the guy says does this look good to you. And it has something to do with who knows what maybe their chapter, whatever. And then he goes to swab smear ornament all over. But is so think of a kid b like seven years, the funny thing you never see. Well, I mean, I don't know how to react at the time had everyone in. Theater like gasped. I would've been like what am I supposed to do? My dad is like falling out of laughing. So it's like. This is what funny is and maybe even goes to my own development of. Yeah. Whacky stupid humor kids. I think maybe it's because the Dulce laugh I'm trying to figure that all out because when you see your kid. Laughing at a fart. Yeah. Like, you wonder like is it just inherently funny or is she up on us thinking? It's right. Yeah. 'cause now it's a it's a whole thing the two-day booty in like, you know, did you? I just picked you up farted on me. And it's just a big game. Now, you know or the, but just the whole thing the dance the button your face in like start so early. It's so cool to see what it's. I my humor is always stuck to be there at seven or eight years old. So I still go with the, but those jokes and now I kind of like that feeling as she she goes against that. But I can tell thanks. No. You're comes dad. Right right here. They go here goes that scene. They're going. I love it. But I mean, dude, if there is a God who created man like that's gotta be an inside joke. There could have been a lot of ways to construct the human body. But to make a smelly flammable. Yes. Says thing that makes a sound come out of your asshole. Right. It's all there. Absolutely. And you know, and all the comedy is right there. Right there it, smells it sounds money. It is. Oh god. Let me see already movie number three me think what I'll do for that one for you. What? What documentary? Do you wish you had made? And you can't save run employer saver an influence to have been there. Let me think about this. No. It's not a fair question. I mean that get tough one I'm gonna say. You know, what maybe? American movie. Good answer. And that also feels like a movie that you could have made just knowing you in your sensibilities, and that could have been a Mike Anderson film, it it has a bit of the Vernon aspect as well that you kinda have to you would had to be at the right place the right time with those characters. Yeah. But shank, Mike. Mark more shard, but the deal with that one is that instead of just turn the camera. I think that there is a little bit more work. I mean, and maybe that's the thing about a lot of documentaries. Why it's it's really hard for some of these documentaries that you really have to dedicate a tremendous amount of time. Yeah. Knowing that you're not going to get paid. That's right. There's no pot of gold at the end of documentary rainbow. Right. You know, I mean, very very seldom there's almost. No. We never do that those guys and not to mention I mean, you're going to have something good at the end if you can if you can last throughout that that amount of time, but. Wallet. Probably seems cool. A lot of times in the documentary. Whatever our half or two hours. It could be real taxing. I think to hang around with the mar shards and the Mike shanks as well. Right. For as long as it would take to make that movie, but I highly respect that movie and to be able to pull that off. Yeah. Good woman, we walk out of a bad movie. Bail. I have I say which one the last one that I walked out of I can't remember. But I have definitely walked out of a movie where I was born. Here's a lot is. That's is as much on me as that movie. Just because my attention span is right on that. Just it just can't do it. All right and finally movie going one on one what are your and you probably don't get out to theater at ton anymore like most grown adults with kids. But what's your what's your movie ritual? Where do you go? What do you eat movie ritual? Now is we go to while? There are the I'm max screen that you can lay down in and safe Phipps or whatever sure we still like to go to Tara. Oh, yeah. Jenny. And I will go to Tara and can get drinks now, adult drinks. Yes. Terra everyone is the I guess sort of long standing art house theater in Atlanta that. You will always no matter. What our ages? You will always be the youngest person, the Tara, right? That's right. Which is great. They show movies that the seventy five year olds of Atlanta love to go. See I can't generally. And they do. Well, they'll they'll have those the what she said the art the art films that come back around. Call me by your name. I think is a last. Yeah. Over there. Now again, that's over there. I mean, we've seen other movies on those, you know, the lay down. At this age, the lay down theaters very dangerous 'cause call the lay down go night night. Yeah, we don't we don't go to those either the one like the big recliners. Yes. Every now. And then, but I I go to Emily, and I'll get out to movies together that much anymore. How can you? Yeah. Do matinees. Yeah. By myself now. But you also can you can stream those right at home. It's kind of there's an aspect this kind of a little bit of. I mean, there's convenience. Yeah. But I will say like I don't wanna be those that snob. It's like you really seen the theater, but I saw Roma in the theater saw Rome at home, and it was two very different experiences. I'm sure I saw Roma at home. Yeah. And I said oh shit. This. When the theater. Yeah. It made a big difference for that movie. But still great. All right. Thanks, buddy. Thank you. It's good stuff. Good stuff. All right, everyone. I hope you enjoyed that. I was laughing with Mike afterward. Like, hey bet. There's about maybe two hundred movie Crushers who've actually seen Vernon Florida. And that may be the best hour and a half of their week was talking about it. And I tried to not just sit around and tell jokes and do character voices and repeat lines, which is what we've always done with this movie. But I think we had a good discussion about it and looked at it through a bit of a different lens here in our late middle age. And every time I see that movie. It's something new jumps out at me and speaks to me a little bit differently. I think Mike felt the same way. So there's a lot of fun talking with my good friend about that great film. And who we did a Justice. If you have not seen burn in Florida, go check it out. It's fifty five minutes long, and it's just some of the purest documentary in its most pure form that you'll see. And the beginnings of air Morris's, great great career. So hope you dug it go. Check out Vernon Florida go check out. Mike's work lords of sap Sapolu is production company. They're doing lots of fun stuff here in Atlanta. And appreciate listen everyone until next week. What are they looking for? Yes. Mono. Crush is produced engineered edited and soundtrack by no Brown in Ramsey at how stuff works studios pond city market. It lands most serial killers. Don't make any effort to involve media or best Gators survey secretive. They don't want to tension. They almost want their crimes to go unnoticed, but the idea of committing a crime, and then calling the police in bragging about it. That's a whole 'nother level of terror. A man who wore a mediaeval style, executioner's hood, police and baffled. The media seems to crave publicity. He's sent letters and papers and release subject stated how to report a murder. No, a double murder. I did it. Here. We are fifty years to the first sodium killing in today's world, forensics cases are being solved who doesn't wanna know. How turns out from the creators of Atlanta monster come season two. This is monster vizo yet killer. Listen as scribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app.

Vernon Florida Mike Anderson Mr. Errol Morris Florida Chuck Bryant Henry Vernon Atlanta Henry Henry shops Albert bitter Ling Turkey Earl Morris Turkey hunter Florida YouTube Vernon Michael Ron burgundy Florida
111: Profiling Toni Morrison

Pure Nonfiction: Inside Documentary Film

17:55 min | 1 year ago

111: Profiling Toni Morrison

"Welcome to pure nonfiction podcast interviewing documentary filmmakers. I'm tom powers the documentary programmer for the toronto international film festival and artistic director of doc n._y._c. and this episode i talked to portrait photographer and filmmaker timothy greenfield sanders his most recent documentary is toni morrison the pieces i am profiling the nobel prize winning author her novels include the bluest eye soula sawn of solomon and beloved in the film. She talks about her motives to right sometimes uh-huh you nudged and sometimes you're just searching to make the writing interesting to me. It's not just writing. It's i. I don't know what this means that i have to find out timothy has a long history with morrison. He photographed her multiple. Times comes over three decades in two thousand six. She inspired him to undertake a film series called. The blacklist. Timothy directed three blacklist films in collaboration with elvis mitchell interviewing distinguish black figures from different fields. We hear the phrase blacklist or is that not you. Blacklists blacklist mean people to list that don't work anymore. Get treated like black people mothers others with his stories his cool. This isn't history to me black culturally. I had to fight. Virtually every single thing writing for me is keith. Who are we and what are we doing. Here just wanted to be somebody. I'm not the ambulance chasing the ambulance and never thought that i was only worth what they said. You get what you're caller event. Somebody else's problem. It's never been on really can be persuaded to think differently often identity human identity gone pimples. They talk about it. There's always going to kind of be an overreaction one way or the other for timothy's tony morrison film he collaborated with interviewer sandra guzman she was previously the editor in chief of latina magazine and conducted interviews for timothy's these films the women's list in the latino list the heart of tony morrison the pieces. I am is a long interview with the author. It's bands her childhood al`thood in lorain ohio her first career as a book editor and her effort to become a writer as a single mother of two sons. The film also includes testimonies from her friends and admirers like oprah winfrey. One of the characters says at the end of song of solomon and she was loved and she was does loved that is the anthem for any life. You can come to the planet and do whatever you do accomplish accomplish. Whatever you accomplish award no awards degrees no degrees successes no successes i think she captured the essence sense of what it means to be human to be alive and to have done well here on earth and we can say the same anything for her and she is my interview with timothy took place in may at the i._f._c. center enter before a live audience that included writer hilton ails who's interviewed in the film less than three months after our conversation. Morrison passed away at age eighty eight to begin. I asked timothy how he first met morrison in the early eighties that was <hes> <hes> when tar baby had just come out so <hes> song of solomon soula and bluest i had been published and tony was doing some press. <hes> i shot it for the cover of soho news which was kind of hipster weekly <hes> back then and you know we. We got along immediately lianne. We we talked a little bit about literature but particularly talked about the neighborhood. I lived in and i remember kind of walking tony to get a cab at the end and and we stayed in touch and then i started to do pictures for her for books <hes> particularly <hes> later on on a lot of the jacket covers and press stuff and <hes> i alluded to the time in two thousand six that was from the opera she in britain libretto for margaret gardner and we were doing pictures then <hes> for that and this beginning of the blacklist and so what were those sessions like come on what was the session with a photography session with her like compared to other authors that you think that it's always about getting the subject to trust you. Oh and that was something that yeah. Tony said to me a couple years ago. She said i. I let i let you see me you know and and the subject allows you to to get in there. It's never the other way around. You can never break down a subject really. I think i think the subject has to kind of let you in and tony trusted me early on i think in the picture show it you know we were a very collaborative portrait work that we did together so she had given you the inspiration to do this series at you embarked on with elvis mitchell the blacklist. Can you talk about how it went from the seed of an idea that she planted to what became attorney wanted to do. Black divas and i'm not an opera lover particularly enough that i would wanna. They do a whole project on opera but it started me thinking about just sort of african american talent in general that there was more than just oprah and barack obama they were all these other people that we could maybe interview and my idea then which now everyone does but was to do this sort of direct to camera <hes> talk where the where the subject is looking right at camera and it's just a very powerful way to do it. In those days earl morris was doing it. A couple of other filmmakers used it but it was rare and it was also my portraiture come to life so if you look at my portraits they're always director cameras single light source and it kinda gray backdrop so i wanted to turn that into film and one of the tricks. It's not a trick. One of the ideas here was that tony talks to camera. Only everyone else hilton ails right here. Second-row talks off camera <hes> they talk about tony and and i thought that could work. I've never seen it in documentary but the the main subject is looking at us and we have a kind of connection that way and then the others are talking thing about her and <hes>. How did you convince johnny morrison if it took convincing to do this film devoted to her you know i think when when the first blacklist film came out we all sat around thinking everyone in this film deserves a feature film this you know there's so much there's so many interesting stories and talents but tony was always the first in my mind tony was the first is set for the blacklist so oh it also a couple of years ago i realized tony was eighty four eighty five eighty eight now that if i'm gonna do it this time and i reached out to her and we talked about it and she you know she didn't say no and that's always a good sign in with tony and that really gave me the courage to cut it fine the funding and go back to her and say i have the money to do it in this was it's gonna be on television or the american masters was the idea back then it became because of sundance film that will now be in theaters. We're very excited with magnolia <hes> but i think tony you trusted me to do it. So what was the the process of interviewing her like. Sandra guzman who is credited in the film did the interviews didn't feel that i i am enough of tony scholar to do the interviews sandra drives a car that says soula on the license plate so at in love's tony deeply and really <hes> <hes> was very very eager to do this film and supportive and <hes> you know you who director you kind of create a space where everyone feels comfortable <hes> we. We did that the interviews the tony at her home so we set up apple studio. They're essentially a backdrop and did them there where she was more comfortable. The others all came to my studio in the east village and again. That's something you you do where you get. The person comes in and you offer some tea or coffee or you make them feel by the time they get to the set that they can trust this atmosphere miss fear now. There must be hundreds of people who are tony morrison. Fans are feel some connections that work that you could have chosen from in your in you very selective and deliberate about the people you did put into the film. Can you talk about curated collection of voices. It's it's very much. Tony's list <hes> there was a longer list <hes> that i had a lot of names on and tony took a nice pencil cross off and i i also you don't like to interview people and not put them in the film. There's one person we interviewed who's not in this film which peter sellars the theater director her and only because it was an easy way to pull seven minutes out of the film it's magnificent piece on shakespeare spirit tony <hes> desdemona that she wrote and othello and it's kind of conversation that happened between them at princeton and it's being the d._v._d. I guess but it's a wonderful wonderful piece but we pulled it and i don't like to do that. I liked if i'm gonna ask you to give me your time and sit for an interview you and be part of this. You should expect to be in the film. I mean there are so many extraordinary interviews on your sanchez. <hes> of course <hes> angela davis this still oprah's stands out as oprah and she brings so much energy to <hes> to her interview. I be remiss if i didn't ask you about filming with oprah we we went to oprah and we were told we have thirty minutes and we had thirty minutes and over gives you gold you gotta. You know she's very good at that. <hes> articulating a perfect kind of statement in a way right and she she actually broke down at one point. We didn't put it in the film but she was very emotional on she said at one point. I didn't expect to cry today. You know talking about tony morrison but oprah's deeply connected to tony you know did a lot with the book club of course but also really loves her and and you know it took me a year to arrange the interview but we got it. I've just heard anecdotally we we showed the film at the the miami film festival why work a couple months ago and <hes> i remember people saying i didn't know that chapter about her publishing career and other other people will say something else that they learned from <hes> from this film and and i wonder when you entered it obviously known her. You've done your research. It's about was their areas of her life or career that you came in extra curious about. I think the publishing career at random house is most people don't know about it and it's very important. <hes> you know there was a lot. This could be ten hours this film the problem ms this is such a gigantic life and we got so much material from the interviewees that it could have been easily three hours. It could have been in a ah. There's so much more there but we had to make decisions about what was important. I think <hes> her family. You understand her family in this you understand her where her grandparents come from her. You know all of the travels of her family. The migration great migration. You know the use of art art in the film is something i'm very proud of as well you see jacob lawrence's paintings in and that scene there when he talks about leaving coming to ohio so we try to incorporate other there's twenty two african american artists who gave us work for the film the the opening is by nicolini thomas who chad is here my producers who's a big fan and i. I didn't know mclean. I i loved her. I've always liked her work very much so i just called her and said you know we're doing this. Film on tony morrison jews consider doing a kind of collage opening waiting for us and she said i'm in you know and and that was the reaction of everyone who we reached out to from kerry james marshall to cara walker to all loran is simpson all of the different artists and and the music about ninety eight percent of the music is one one composer catherine bostick who's a musician from los angeles who we found on the internet and is just a brilliant brilliant composer imposer in the song. The end is hers. She sings it and she composed almost all the music. It doesn't shy on the wall where secrets burn brighter walk to the edge and dance with the duty free here in this conversation you serve of established. You're bona fides with your long history of tony morrison and she felt comfortable to have you do this film <hes> yet. Still people must look at this listened and thank you know. How does he get to be the guy who tells the tony morrison film and i wonder if you can talk about how you've come to answer that question for yourself. You mean the the white band who tells the tony morrison story <hes> you know i think it really comes back to trust that tony was very <hes> <hes> familiar with what i had done in film the blacklist series of course the latino list the outlets the translates the women's list all of those films about identity and she for the women's tony wrote the introduction and read it for us so she's she's very aware of these films and i think she knew what kind of filmmaker i am. I am and i also made it very tony had kind of been with me and other film home in the film. She saw what my crew was. How diverse was how much that meant to all of us to do that. <hes> tony makes decisions. It's kind of that kind of comes down to that and i think she i hope she saw the film and she's her comment. Was i like her <music>. I want to thank timothy greenfield sanders for speaking with me his film tony morrison the pieces. I am now playing in theaters released by magnolia pictures eventually come to p._b._s.'s american master series <music>. Thanks to our team series producer and northern swan and web designer cross ross strategy our theme music is composed by andre williams and our executive producer is rafael and they housing you can follow us on twitter instagram or facebook at pure nonfiction. I'm tom powers. You can follow me on twitter at t. h. O. m. powers you can read our show notes. Learn about live events and sign up for our newsletter at pure nonfiction dot net <music> <music> <music> yeah.

tony morrison director oprah timothy elvis mitchell oprah winfrey timothy greenfield nobel prize johnny morrison solomon timothy greenfield sanders toronto ohio earl morris programmer lorain latina magazine solomon soula doc n._y._c. margaret gardner
Alex Gibney, director of HBO's Theranos documentary "The Inventor"

Recode Media with Peter Kafka

36:36 min | 2 years ago

Alex Gibney, director of HBO's Theranos documentary "The Inventor"

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World registered today at NABC show dot com and use the code be a fifteen to get a free pass. This is Peter Kafka. I'm here with Alex Gibney when my favorite documentary filmmakers, when I've ever people to interview is that the second time, I've talked to south by second podcast with you. We're here today because you've got a new HBO documentary, which is great. It's called the inventor out for blood and Silicon Valley. It's the story of Elizabeth homes and theranos you should go. See it. We should stream into or watch it on TV at your house. Welcome alex. Thanks for your. We're talking before we started taping. And you said you have to do multiple projects at once because sometimes a project get stopped because something breaks in that happened here with this documentary. What what what was the problem for you making this documentary seems almost like a layup? I know you work, very hard. But it seems like this is something that you would just sink your teeth in right into immediately. It's a fraud. It's Wall Street Journal. John carrier did amazing reporting through laid it all out just seems like just red meat for you. But before the book came out, it wasn't really that way. He'd done some pieces in the journal. And then for the film. Nobody was willing to talk, and they weren't willing to talk because they were all afraid of being sued by David boies, the famous attorney at boies Schiller who famously represented Harvey Weinstein and also Hank Greenberg AIG and others and also represented allegory. And right, there was a point where David boies was considered a white Knight among that's right. Like, you and me represented L gore. He helped break up Microsoft didn't break up Microsoft, Representative DOJ against Microsoft, ruthlessly, skewered, Bill Gates and a famous deposition. Yeah. It in this case, he was representing theranos. It was also an investor was getting paid and theranos shares. And that put the fear of God into the people. You wanted to talk to that's right because he had threatened people and indeed cost people like Tyler Schultz, the grandson of George Shultz who's on the board at their say, it costs Tyler's family five hundred thousand dollars in legal fees. And so everybody wanted to keep their heads down because they were afraid that David Boyce was gonna come after them. So it was very hard to get. People initially to talk on the record. So let's let's back up. I mean, I don't think there's anyone listening to this podcast who isn't familiar broadly with there, and I was Elizabeth homes in the fraud there. But just to put it in context. She said, I can do this amazing thing where couple Trump's in blood. I can do all these really amazing. Blood panels. Right. I can I can diagnose two hundred different things amazingly that people normally takes an enormous amount of time and money to do. I can do it quickly. I for some reason put one of these in every household, she's on every magazine cover. She's worth nine million dollars the company's worth nine billion dollars. And then it all goes away at what point do you see that and go this is a story. I'm going to right? Well, you know, I was approached about this by two people who had been conned by her Graydon Carter, former Rabanne ity, fair magazine, and Richard Platt who until recently, you know, ranch B, oh, and they had become so convinced that her story was a magnificent new chapter in Silicon Valley, the young female entrepreneur drops out. And and does extrordinary things they to you. Well, they pitched it to me once there they had been so enamored of her that they thought of doing kind of the promos story, and then they saw it goes south with John Kerry ruin say. So they thought let's maybe Alex would be interested in this story. And indeed, I was that's that's a bit of context because you spend a lot of time with John Kerry ru on the documentary. He's he's he's on camera as he should be. But you also spend a lot of time with two other journalists who were conned by by her Ken, Oletta, esteemed New Yorker writer, and Roger Powell law from from the fortune who from fortune magazine, who it's I I don't wanna spoil it. But he's this through line through the documentaries. Right. And he's he's to this day just incredibly angry at her, and it seems to be at himself that he was on haunted by by his own role and his failure to see through her in and to be clear both both Aleta and Pearl off explaining we tried to assess some of these claims were not we're not scientists we couldn't in and also all the stuff was shouted literally in a box. You couldn't see it. But we didn't just take it on blind faith. We did talk to her a let. Often playing you tapes of him talking to her trying to elicit more which she literally lies to him on tape. Yeah. Is there a broader takeaway, you think about the role that the press and other neighbors have in in in making a calm like this work? Yeah. I mean, I think it's too easy to say that it's the press fault. But you can see as part of the story, the kind you poignant and important tale of how violet is journalists. Get it, right. And how we're all suckers for a story that we want to hear and the story that Elizabeth was telling was the story that we all wanted to hear we can make health care better. We can make it more transparent. We can make it cheaper. We can make it less invasive. And by the way, this is a company that is headed by a young woman in male dominated Silicon Valley, who's not only a CEO, but is an entrepreneur and an inventor you want that story to be true in. But and I think about. About this a lot both as someone who makes content and puts on conferences and this podcast. I'm always trying to over correct? For the fact that I talked to almost exclusively white guys. Right. We're always trying to get people who aren't white guys on camera on a podcast, she she was all over magazine cover she's sort of filled that role. Do you think she was aware of sort of how she was filling that niche? Absolutely. And and I think even in defeat she was very much aware of playing that role because when my producer Jesse deeter interviewed or off the record, you know, early on we were trying to persuade it or come on board. You know, she said that she was the victim. And that the only reason that she went down was because she was a woman and that that people came after her and offs of men in Silicon Valley could make mistake after mistake up from steak, and they would be forgiven, and they would come back. But if you're a woman, you only get one chance true, you think that argument is I you know, I don't buy it in this case. I. It again, it's a very I think the idea of the argument is right. And it's an argument. I want to believe in in the sense that I do think that we were tougher on on women, and we often give men a pass on things that that we shouldn't, you know, like the idea of being tough. And for a woman, you know, as an executive that might be shrill, right? But in this case, Elizabeth really crossed the net line that should not have been crossed. And that was she had a blood testing technology that wasn't really working very well. But she needed money. She needed to go forward. She needed the support of Walgreens. So she went live and started allowing sh. Theranos devices to be used on real patients. Now, you're talking about life and death because you know, they were testing for things like hepatitis c and syphilis, and and and also for various blood values that caused certain people to go to the emergency room because they were convinced that they were in a in a whole heap of trouble. So so in this case if Elizabeth had only been in Oran d mode. Okay. I accept that argument. But I don't accept the argument in this case because she was putting real lives at risk when this the the carrier is stories broke in the journal. I remember there were a bunch of Silicon Valley people who just had an immediate sort of reaction. This is the press trying to tear down an inventor and entrepreneur, and you guys like negative stories. It was a reflexive reaction from the and then eventually they stopped because this outright fraud. That's right. But there has been this ongoing tension between wanting to build up a Silicon Valley entrepreneur any entrepreneurially, but it's specifically sort of protect people and then eventually they. Stumble. And there's this narrative at the press delights in that do you wanna write store or do you wanna make stories about people who are enormously successful? Or is it or is the rivet twisted tale like this just inherently interesting? Well, I am drawn to tales about abuse of power and about deception, but you know, over time you do enough of those stories, and you do really want to do stories about people who are doing good and really do. Good. In fact, you know, I'm I'm out looking for those stories now because then he gets important, you know, we're trying to save the planet when it be great to do stories about people who are really doing good. But you know, I think that we live in a time where corporations have become so powerful relative to the state and relative to the fourth estate, which is really under assault that they are able to promote fictions in ways that are really dangerous. And so it's. And I think in this moment in time, it's important rudder against those fictions there. I mean, there is at least I mean, we're seeing that was wasn't with Warren other folks that we we've switched in some ways from agitating Silicon Valley to saying all these guys are allied against us. Or at least there's a class of people who are making that argument. Do you think that she would have been as successful doing her her fraud in two thousand nineteen and she was five years ago? No, I think she wrote away. I think your point is well taken I mean, look now we have a fraudster and chief has president of the United States. So I think we're we're all a little bit more sensitive to the idea of people who Asli tell lies or numb to it or numb to it may be. But I think that you know, we don't accept it on faith that when a company tells you that they do good that we don't necessarily believe that one of the other distinctions that the the Silicon Valley folks made in sort of the first year or so after after she'd been debunked was. This. She wasn't really Silicon Valley. She dressed like Steve Jobs. Choose photograph. I want to ask you about that in a second. But but but if you look at who invested in her, right? It's not Silicon Valley. It's there were no sort of name brand VC. She didn't have any of the standard biotech feces. It was rich people like Murdoch, and then she had a board full of generals and secretary of state Henry Kissinger, she's not she's not one of us. Don't blame us. Yeah. I accept that. To some extent. I mean, it is true that a number of savvy tech investors did not invest in Elizabeth homes. But some she got some early big names like Larry Ellison to come on board and give her street cred in the argument there is the Larry someone like Larry Ellison. We'll make a very early bishops making early executives. It doesn't matter. It's like going to the track and bidding on a fifteen sometimes. But on your friends, you get on your kids friends, and so went on a million here or a millionaire. But you know, she she was cleverly able to use that over time to persuade other people to come on board. But I would say. That the Elizabeth home story does fit rather neatly within the context of American capitalism, and is one of the reasons that you know, I I chose tell the Thomas edisons story as part of the the Elizabeth home store, you know, he was the original fake it till you make it guy. Yeah. You've went this way that that. He did do a lot of amazing things. And then he also made up a bunch of stuff. Well, and luckily for him or luckily for us, you know, you know, when he said he had invented the incandescent lightbulb it really wasn't ready for prime time. It was bullshit, really. And but he would fake tests here. No to convince people that it was ready. He gave journalists stock in his company, you know, to keep them writing good stories as in with Holmes case, it was so important to have journalists. Write good stories. Right. So he was doing all those things. But at the end of the day, he did make it work and that made him very different from Eliza. With homes and nice. Greg because she names her machine the Edison. Yeah. Well, that's what got us onto that to begin with that. That's why we started to go down that path Edison. Why did she call it Edison? So we start to to investigate and learn more about Edison. But interestingly in terms of the all the parallels with tech. I mean, I think look her ethic fake you make it is baked in to Silicon Valley. So there's an aspect of Elizabeth Rome's that's very much mainstream move fast break things, you know, the disruptor all that stuff, and she imbued herself with a lot of that ethic. Now, some a lot of Silicon Valley veteran BC firms did not invest in all of that is true Rupert Murdoch invested in her to the tune of hundred and twenty five billion dollars without ever looking in an audited financial statement, which find jaw-dropping, but that also tells you something about investing and capitalism, and and whether or not these things are really rational are based on on emotion. So she allies herself with that is in the myth. And then specifically with Steve Jobs over I. I want this to be like the I don't really understand why you'd want a blood testing machine in your home. But that aside she does the black turtleneck in which I didn't realize until you point out midway through. You've got this amazing footage of her doing these apple style. Documentaries. And they're created by Earl Morris, right? Who had did a lot of this work for apple? It is literally no accident. They wanted to emulate that she had hired a guy named Patrick O'Neal who had been at Chhaya day and had been very much on the apple account and Patrick kind of masterminded the look of theranos both in terms of outward facing consumers, and but also in terms of how they were going to design their building. How are they going to sign? The look how they're going to Zayn the way they talked about the company to invent the the shape and feel of it from top to bottom, and that was very job seen in its way. I mean, Steve was jobs was very rigorous in terms of how apple was presented house designed so forth. And so on he was a great storyteller and salesman interests. Though, the one lesson that Elizabeth never learned from Steve Jobs. So she should have was how much Steve Jobs, ultimately, particularly Steve Jobs. Two point. Oh, the Steve Jobs, invented the iphone learn from failure. You know out of the failure of next comes the success of apple two point. Oh, and also he's surrounded himself at that time with people like John Rubinstein, and I'll be to Bainian who's an early investor and theranos before he turned against it, and Johnny I've people who are willing to tell him. No. And she only surrounded herself with yes-men, and when people began to tell her no shoot, either marginalize them or fire them. I wanna talk to you a little more what Steve Jobs in the mechanics if I put this together and take a quick break. Right back. This is advertiser content. When disaster strikes affected families and communities. Call on aid organizations for relief and to help them rebuild their lives. We have responded to more than three hundred fifteen disasters around the world. That's raj. 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They want his Peter for you. But you know, how to do that ZipRecruiter dot com slash Peter. So they know I sent you one more time Zip Recruiter dot com slash Peter. Back here with Alex Gibney. We were just talking about Steve Jobs reminds me the last time I talked to you in this building. You had a Steve Jobs documentary. It's it's quite a critical cutting look at him. And there are so many parallels between that movie, and that story in this one very different stories, you still very critical look at at someone in this case that's full on fraudster. And you're in the Steve Jobs movie, you're saying this is a man who did amazing things and is deeply flawed, and I want to focus on those flaws in one of the things that I've just really noticed. There's how much footage they're is of her. You're Steve Jobs movie is is full of footage of Steve Jobs over his life. You forget how much he was on camera. How much he documented himself? Why do you think she documented herself? So copiously it's almost like she made the documentary for you. I know she didn't. Well, she she made the documentary. She wanted me to invest in. And I use it to a different purpose. But I think for her. It was as if she imagined if only there had been a camera in the garage with Woz and Steve Jobs. So now, this is my garage, and we're going to film it from start to finish. And so, you know, she hires Patrick and she hires Martin Schoeller this great photographer to to photograph her and she hires aero Morris to do the documentary and right on up to the end. I mean, I think there was a there was a period where I as I understand it was going to continue on to to do it in and kind of pitch that idea to Elizabeth until us with I think so that was not going to go well to mentally, but but yes, she wanted to she was the writer director and producer of her own story. And it was very much a created story. A curated story right down to the makeup and the wardrobe her black turtlenecks for deep red lipstick the heavy miscarry around. Arise which never blinked. You know, this was a costume for a drama that she was playing out in real time for people in order to be able to give that emotional Valence to the story that that is so important to get people to sign up and one of the other parallels with the jobs movie, and this one is in the jobs movie. I think the most telling thing is this this deposition. Yes, where he's getting in trouble for backdating stock options. That's right. And he's he's both super disdainful of the the lawyers who are deposing him. He's incredibly like angry that he has to be heavy set down this room unanswered questions, and he's also self pitying, and in in this movie, you've got this amazing that position footage as well. How do you think about assembling this sort of stuff when there is so much footage? Well, there's an interesting thing. I want to say about that. Which was that HBO? You know, we and then HBO backing us up tried very hard to get a lot of the deposition video, and we did succeed in terms of getting it and we use the. Tiny bit of it in film, a deposition with George Shultz, notably. But also just a little bit of Elizabeth and sunny ball twenty fifth or being sworn in. But ultimately, we decided in the in the jobs film. The position footage is incredibly revealing of jobs as I think he often was it was the mask revealed. In a moment in this case, we decided ultimately not to include that much of the deposition footage because we thought it was more revealing to show how Lisbeth wanted to be presented to show her movie. So that you could see how she wanted to sell her own story. Right. So over and over you're seeing her the way she wanted to present herself. And then you intercut that with unlike Tyler showed saying, this is what was actually going. Yeah. The the difference between what Tyler Tyler had a great distinction. He called it the difference between the carpeted world and the tiled world tiled. Where was the world of the lab were nothing weren't everything was breaking and the carpeted world was the executive suite were Elizabeth would hold forth and would convince even Tyler who knew how badly things were working on the tile world, but he would come up to the carpeted world and after a ten minute conversation with Elizabeth he'd be full of of dreams and visions of how this is all going to change the world. And then you get back down to toddler fuck. No my God couldn't be further from. The truth and his grandfather, George Shultz. I mean. One of the poignant tales in this film is that George Shultz really wouldn't believe his grandson about the nature of the fraud going on inside. And by that time Elizabeth had gotten so much into his head. I think in some ways this tale is about and, you know, something I dealt within the felon, Scientology, the prison of belief. You know, once you've committed once you've committed it's very hard to walk out of the that sell even though the door is open. And so you've got this. This is footage that she is basically provided for you not intentionally the footage. You've made of of interviews with people directly involved, and then you intersperse it with re-creations here. And there sure here is a vile falling on the ground. Here is what it looked like when the woman walks out of the office and his and his serve with that position papers that have for temporary address. So it's super creepy. Imagine you do this in many of your movies, but but this movie specifically since it's about fraud about recreation or you at all nervous about inserting footage. That is recreation. Or a dramatization not really. I mean, I think that in a way what you're doing is playing with layers of deception, and you're creating what I think are stylized moments that effectively serve as kind of recollections, or in some cases are stylized moments which served to in a playful way show, what might have been going on inside the machine that you can't really see. And I think there's enough distance there. So it's not like we're trying to fool people. We're trying to put them in the psychological or. Mental frame of mind of of of what that moment might have been about. You've mentioned HBO a few times we've mentioned Richard plus ler. You premiered this movie or there was a big screening and party for this movie? Literally the night that Richard publisher set him, I'm leaving HBO. What will that mean for you going forward working with HBO or not working with HBO? He was a champion of your work hard to say, I mean, I've talked to Casey blows. And and and all the regular folks, I normally deal with HBO, and they'll say, you know, we're we're bullish on telling me stories in the futures. So let's keep pushing so great. I I'm more than the passing of Richard. I mean, I think he was a unique individual in terms of his ability to both really invest in understanding the territory that particularly documentarian was getting into and really grapple with the content and also to support and promote, you know, the creators at the channel. And and also. To be a kind of skillful impresario, which is important, you know, as much as we're talking about the fraud with those homes, and and you know, how promotion or over promoting can take you into an area of deception and put on a show you can put on a show on his show shows. Good. I mean, you got to get people to pay attention. You know, we're we're all kind of in ADD world where we're bombarded twenty four seven with Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and the nightly news and an update on the New York Times every ten minutes. So you have to find a way to call, you know, people out and say, it's important to pay attention. And he was very good at working with people like me in the press in general, right? He receives gracious and knew how to sort of give us things that we needed. And we're useful those people who know how to do that. I'm just all the all the all maybe this is why. But all the stories that came out of me to after he left that he was special. In different, and he was the special juice that sort of made HBO and the AT and T guys the telco guys that bought this. Don't get it BT guys. If you talked to was really good at what doing what he did. But we're doing something different. And also, he's not the only person who can talk to talent. Right. It's technically possible, right? Yeah. Sure. I mean, you know. You weren't you've worked with lots of other people. Sure. And and there are other talented executives. I'm just you know, Richard was particularly talented, and you know, at some point along the way, I mean the way I have a small company, you know, we're doing a bunch of projects a move which involved in some which I'm not. But I mean, the one of the things that we try to promote at our company is that we're not doing something for the corporation, the corporation is there to celebrate the talents of a bunch of people, you know, sore investing in the people were not trying to jam fit the people into some kind of rigid corporate philosophy. So you'll certainly I keep working with HBO. If they absolutely like, I said, I mean, I know Casey is very creative and intelligent guy. Who's done a lot of great work. And the the two women, you know, I mourned the passing two if Sheila Nevins she decided, you know, she she retired a number of. Years ago couple years ago, I guess, but I know Nancy Abraham at least the hell our day. They're great, you know, very savvy executives who really know what they're doing. And and honestly to you know, there's a there's a kind of back office, particularly the back legal office in HBO that has been hugely supported a Scientology Docklands. You really got behind us in in ways that we're very powerful. And and even on this one, I think, you know, made sure that we made good law when we went after the. The depositions the video depositions in this case in order to be able to make them available. We didn't end up using them in the film for aesthetic and creative reasons. But it was a great service. I think yeah, I I and she was still professing her innocence while you were making this move throughout. I mean, professing not only your innocence. But the fact that she was a victim. Yeah. I we were talking about the fire festival documentary started. And I wish you'd seen at least one of those you gotta check them out. But I mean, one of the striking things about about that one in this one they're not herald, compare lonesome ways. But in both cases, right? When you think of a fraudster, you think of someone who takes the money and runs her case. She's stuck around. She was there when the billion she stood there when it's zero. She means maintaining your innocence. The fire festival guy is literally on the island is the whole thing is disappearing insisting that it's all going to work out. It's an and this is why I wanted to ask you about it. You do spend some time. He's obviously explained how. How the fraud happened? But you do try to explain why the fraud happened. Why she did this in debating is this just outright greed, or is this something else? Yeah. I don't think it was out right greed. I don't think she's burning made off. I think she believed in the mission. I also think she believed in the idea of who she was right. But sometimes that's not the good news is actually the bad news. And because it's a variation of the end justifies, the means, right? And I think she was able to I'm going to help people. So if I have to bend a co if I have to bend something here to a work around here. It's okay. That's right. And I think it also was able it allowed her to lie more effectively because she believed she was doing it for a good cause. Or she convinced herself that she wasn't lying at all. And I got some help in that front. You know, one of the things I got interested in when I started to make this film was the whole psychology of lying and not only line to others belong to yourself in order to be able to lie more effective. To others. And you know, there's a through line in the film, the voice of a man named Dan Arieli behavioral economist who's very much in the tradition of these guys, Danny conman and almost risky who was celebrated by Michael Lewis in his last pissed and he's all about the irrational. He wrote a book called predictably irrational in how we respond in very irrational ways to the market and to issues of supply and demand and so forth and so on, but he also really digs deep into the idea of deception and self deception, and one of his most wonderful experiments is something he does with dice, and the experiment goes something like this where you give somebody a die. And you say look we're going to pay you, according to how the die comes up. It comes up six six dollars for four dollars, whatever. But he puts a little hop in the bonzes before you roll just thinking your mind, but don't. Tell me, you know, are you betting that it's going to your betting on the top or the bottom right in the six or the one and roll? Okay. So they roll and then people write down their scores, and so forth self report itself reporting, and it turns out that the people in pursuit of their own gain are incredibly lucky meaning they cheat. And then they put them on a lie detector to say. Well, did you cheat? And they say, no. And of course, the detector picks up the live right away. Then they do a second experiment. This is the really interesting part of it. And in the second experiment. They say all the money is going to go to a charity that benefits orphans. Right. And you'd expect that they would cheat less than in fact, they cheat more. And when they put them on the lie detector, the lie detector cannot detect the lie why because there's no tension between this notion on the one hand, I want one. But I think it's I'm not harming anyone not harming anybody even more. I'm doing good. Right. So what's the problem? I asked people have asked people for a while in Silicon Valley to investors so much money sloshing around even will intention people. You think would be screwing up left, and right and burning all the and not to mention just the cross section of any population. You're going to have fraudsters there. There have not bet them. There have not been that many stories about outright fraud and deception, right? There's this one fire festival doesn't really count. Although sort of does I know some BC's him at those guys and said, I don't know how you received them you could figure this out in a second. But as an aside there was a there was. There's a VC who turned out was scouting with everyone's money. But there are not that many stories coming out of the valley, given all the billions of dollars have gone to big companies small guys with an idea with the napkin, why do you think we haven't heard those stories well, some of those companies fail early probably? But I think you know, the other thing I would say is we do hear these stories about lies in Silicon Valley. That's another interesting point that Dan area Ellie comes up with, you know, see he he consulted with Elizabeth homes. He's actually in the story. But he also does a lot of consulting. Reggie was she brings him them into sort of boost. Everyone's because the morale is not good here. I it's funny that why why she brings him in. She brings him in. Because in the wake of carriers was articles motivation is in the pits. And she thinks how can I motivate? The the problem is not that there's a bad technology. The problem is between message our way out this. These people are insufficiently motivated, they're not trying hard enough. So she brings them into motivate the employee's nothing to do with her problems. But. But I think you know, he gives talks Silicon Valley, and does a lot of talking to corporate groups and a lot of you know, Silicon Valley. Entrepreneurs would always tell them look Silicon Valley is all about technology, and technology doesn't lie. Well, you know, let's think about some of the line that's going on in Silicon Valley. What about that whole story with apple in the battery and the phone, you know, was that we're they being honest with us upfront. No, not really that was something we just discovered, and you know, now, we're learning about, you know, all the stuff that Facebook and Google we're doing with our data. So you know, it's not fraud. But it's a kind of lying that I think tech companies feel they're entitled to do because they're doing good. It seems like you could do nothing but Silicon Valley docs now for. What are you think the silicon valley's where a lot of the power is? But I'm you know, I'm I'm exploring some other stuff. I there's a film. I've I've just on a completely different topic about a conflict between Russia's richest man and Vladimir Putin as a way of looking at how Russia where like an easy low stakes thing for you to see that I met I one point you said you were going to do a an actual feature film. Yeah. I'm still going. There's a couple of things. I mean, I've I've, of course, I've done some dramas I did this series called the looming tower with lar-, Larry, write and direct was on who it was on Hulu. And then I did an episode of billions which was really which one was it was this season two. I believe and it was the it was the one about the high stakes poker game. Oh, it's great. Yeah. It was great. Let me go back and re watch it. Yeah. And so there are a couple of features that I'm interested in doing and also some other drama. Attic series that we're developing than than I think it'd be good. It's fun to inhabit that world. I'm not I'm not one. Who's like, oh now, I can jump to drama, and I won't have to documentaries in mirror. Love doing documentaries. But, but there's there things sometimes you can do in drama that you can't do in dachshund vice person, I won't watch anything you making them, especially billions when go back and rewatch that episode Alex, thanks for your time. Thanks so much.

Silicon Valley Elizabeth fraud Steve Jobs Alex Gibney HBO apple George Shultz Microsoft Tyler Tyler Richard Platt executive theranos HBO Azure dot boies Schiller Larry Ellison Wall Street Journal Earl Morris
162 w/ Errol Morris "Steve Bannon, American Dharmam"

The Fifth Column

1:01:01 hr | 1 year ago

162 w/ Errol Morris "Steve Bannon, American Dharmam"

"We know new not about pack pro. John Hart the Column Ladies and Gentlemen Boys and Girls Comrades and company Hero's welcome to a special edition of the fifth column podcast onto that cadence. It's just like Camille. And if you're listening to this you might have gotten it through our patriotic which we've finally launched and you will have gotten this early if you haven't gotten into early. We do stagger this a little bit and eventually give it to you cheapskates. Who Don't help us defray are Qasr by subscribing driving? But if you don't we hoped we'd against you I mean we do but we don't tell you that a very special one this time when I was quite excited to do Morris. I think it's probably America's most famous documentarian because if not errol Then maybe Ken Burns so we got to come into the studio and I did a one on one with him About a week ago deliver week ago when his film American Dharma opened in New New York was opening the following day in Los Angeles. But the interesting thing about this as Morris who you if you don't know him you might have seen one of his films act of killing Unknown known which is a film about Don Rumsfeld which was famous in Toronto? where he you know looks down the barrel of the camera to his subject And My name is of course. The fog of war Most of his recent one which is a incredible film about Robert McNamara. One of the architects of the Vietnam War in the funny thing about that film is that actually brought him to the film he just made. Because Steve Bannon who is the subject of American Dharma tells Aero Moore's in the film American Dharma that he was profoundly influenced influenced in his politics by watching the film about Robert McNamara and seeing these horrible technocrats that ruined the world and in Morris is a bit taken aback by this but so we sat down and we discuss. That film has news film. We've discussed. He's he's from Dr Death kind of overlooked one from I think nineteen ninety nine and about a guy named Fred later which I think. He Pronounces Leuchter or looked Dr a Boston with heavy Boston accent. WHO makes a death row devices? Shall we say how does this execution devices. And he also became quite a notable Holocaust. Denier so Morris has an incredible when we talk about him quite a bit and and it's a great meandering conversation. And Morris has a great prickly interviewer interviewee. He's a great interviewer on the other end he's a little a little difficult culpa but I mean that in the most positive way ahead of a fantastic time but the interesting thing about this film because it was shot in two thousand eighteen and is now what November two two thousand nine hundred and in the kind of time. If you think about this a little bit were you making a political contemporaneous political film. That's a lot of time. Because because Steve Bannon influences waxed and waned he's been sort of A friend of the White House. He's been inside the White House. He's been on the outs with the White House. He is now making podcast from these so-called Breitbart embassy in Washington DC Defending the president from impeachment charges So he's all over the place. He kinda random these campaigns in Europe which I made a little film about for the Vice HBO show. He's been all over the place. So why hasn't this. Well we're going to talk about that and in this podcast but just put it this way. We talk about no platforming because is despite the fact that Steve Bannon has had a platform in the White House and running the campaign of the current president. They're a bunch of people who believe at this film shouldn't have been released and he should be no platform because to hear Steve. Bannon is to be poisonous. Influenced by Steve Benham. It's crazy right so on on the Friday that I recorded this evening ban more his his his Opening opening of the film at the Film Forum in New York City I was going to go. I couldn't make it and he was doing a one on one A. Q.. And A. With his son Hamilton Morris. who does WHO's a colleague of mine does a great show on vice land where my no new show is by the way. Yeah the weirdly called impeachment show but Anyway Watch Hamilton show Hamilton's Pharmacopoeia so Hamilton to Morris's onstage with him and a friend of mine sent me an email and it's a image that says it's a piece of paper pink jet kind of print with a blue piece of tape stuck on the wall of a bathroom and the phone form and there's a quote on this piece of paper. The ethics thing thing to me is not a terribly interesting argument. Sorry Errol Morris Indie wire ten eleven two thousand eighteen so a quote from him here and then beneath that it says there are real world consequences to getting Steve Bannon another platform. Please reconsider supporting this film Film Forum provides ventures in exchange for return tickets. So have you seen the premiere of his film asking You. A little piece of paper stuck to the wall in the bathroom to walk out. This is in the stall. So that is what Earl Morris has been facing for even talking to Steve Bannon so that no platforming idea We discuss Along with other things. So let's get to it. This is my conversation Shen last week. With the great filmmaker Errol Morris Errol Morris. Thanks for joining me. Let's talk about the new film American in Dharma Steve Bannon. This took a while to get to theaters and it premiered less September Venice. And it's coming out now. Why why the delay because no one wanted to distribute the movie? But it wasn't because it wasn't a good movie I've seen the movie. It's a terrific. Maybe it was for political reasons. I think it's my best movie movie self-serving of me to say so but yes. I think it's my best movie. Why do you say say that? I mean you've made some pretty incredible movies. I'm in fog of war of course known unknowns and go back into line obviously why is this one better than all those because it pushes a lot of techniques that interest me one step further than I seen them pushed before no one talks about. The movie is a movie. They don't now not really. It's a political statement and they debate the politics of someone someone asked me to blur. The question's been asked in the last couple of days but someone asked me will wind people get so infuriated by this movie What exactly did you do actually? It's a line that comes from my son when he was about five or six years old. He said Dad don't you no. I'm an annoying fire. And indeed he is and his father is also evidently and annoy of fire and noyer fire and annoying oil fire. And why why he did people react this way too. The film I it premiers ears at the Venice Film Festival to a Standing Ovation long standing ovation long standing ovation through the entire final credit sequence. I go back to my hotel room and I read the first reviews which are among the nastiest reviews. I have ever read. is one. I imagine you're referencing in particular that I was I'm very partisan on this in the sense that I loved the film and hated all the reviews. The first one that I read was this one. Variety righty which seemed to have had a problem with Steve. Bannon with you it was. It was an extended debate with Steve. Steve Bannon political ideas and didn't engage with the film at all. I mean that seems to. It'd be kind of a common thing. And that seems to be the point of contention here is that people don't like Bannon. I mean this is I mean you blamed it at one point. You blamed the you know. The the difficulty eighteen distribution on David Ramnik explained that well. I wouldn't blame David remnant per se in the sense the claim claim is that REMM nick was out to get me and my movie but in the weeks preceding the Venice Premiere. He says the great term. He D Platform Steve Bannon from the New Yorker Festival her and in doing that and in writing this excuse for why he did it. It was if he gave gave permission to everybody. Oh this is how you do it. You D platform the guy e can't do any damage edge really if he can't be seen or heard well. This is really nut so Two plus years out D platforming bannon really hasn't happened but even if it did do you think that's. That's what's GonNa make us safe. And it's going to protect us from Roy Appearance Of American fascism. That GonNa do the trick. Thank you and your country safe. Well that's the idea right. I mean this isn't this isn't never come up with any of your other films. I mean obviously did. Ah like with like Fred Leuchter. WHO said Holocaust and iron? He's in the film. Denying the Holocaust and I don't recall anyone saying you know early. No you shouldn't put him on the screen because there were plenty of people. There were people who did that. Yes really yes is there. Is there a difference in a degree now. That David Remnant is doing it when people in the media during different. What's different now is? There's the Internet that makes everything different my electric chair Repairman and Holocaust denier. Fred Luter I read about on the front page of guess. What The New York Times blow the full page one but page from one of the New York Times article can capital punishment be humane way? I always describe it as taking the out out of the death penalty. I thought it was really going to hurt. And it turned out to be an enormously pleasant experience. So there's this article about Fred designing lethal injection systems electric chairs Gallos. I guess you would say the whole nine yards at the very end of the article. They mentioned the Holocaust denier and the he contributed to this infamous pamphlet written by a Canadian German Neo Nazi earns Zundel. Yes did six million really die and the combination of electric chair Repairman and Holocaust. Denier convince me movie. You'RE GONNA make in those days. I think today if that article appeared there'd be a hundred and fifty thousand documentary filmmakers all over it back. Then just me me me me me alone nutso enough to WanNa to make this movie. which I I really found interesting and it's a movie? I'm glad I made now. There were Jewish activists. I'm a Jew by the wave a to make things clear. I am not a Holocaust. Denier fire I have no reason to believe the Holocaust in nap and in fact I have every reason to believe it did happen. 'cause I'm glad you're clarifying lost lost family members so Jewish activists attacked me for really. It's not so different than this. What's different is that we live in a different world Partly because of the Internet and two years later it becomes a little clearer to me. Why all of this happened? And and there's a simple reason for it. The Twentieth Sixteen election was one of the great great nightmares nightmares and tragedies in American history. People talk about were they were when J. f. k. with assassinated people all we know where they were. When trump became president of the United States? It was horrible night. What was your action that evening horror horror? It's still Izhar for complete or getting. You're not a huge trump fan. Is that one of the reasons he wanted to talk to. So so. So we'll it's of course it's But America responded to it suggesting getting America is this biological entity but many people responded to it. Denial What's the stupid line? You know. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. they wanted to go away and he's still do they wanted it Bannon calls it the nullification campaign. They still do all they want to. Do is nullify. The Twenty Eighty Sixteen election will surely do not wrong fats up. Yeah Yeah but he won. I'm sorry he won the election and it behooves us not to pretend that he didn't nothing to begin. It behooves us to figure figure out how this happened and to prevent it from ever happening again but the argument to you made by clever people. People differ eminent. Who pulled the plug on? Is that to give these people. Oxygen to could platform them is to spread ideas. That are already in the White House. It's kind of baffling thing that we shouldn't be kind of investigate. Why these these? ID's are popular. I mean I. I read a review of of the film yesterday. Probably the worst reviews. I've read of any film in a long time. It doesn't make sense but there was an idea that Steve Bannon ideas are incoherent. They're not incoherent at all all. They're perfectly coherent in. I thought the great thing about the film was getting at that sense of people. Don't quite realize that Steve Bannon they talk about him as a sort of Neo Nazi and fascist that he is in some sense a left wing populist in some senses a right wing populist I mean there's parts of that film's sounds like Pretty Sanders. There's a chameleon like quality to ban them. Can I call it left wing. Populism not really had a conversation sation with known Chomsky of all people now lives in Tucson is no longer in Cambridge. He's no longer in Cambridge. ambridge comes to Cambridge occasionally. But he's getting up there in a inch and the weather is better in Tucson he's in Tucson than it is in Cambridge Massachusetts and he said that he had met Bannon in Tucson and that they could agree on many many of the problems in America but not really agree on what those solutions might be And it's heart it really is Bannon's ideology such insults kind of incoherent. It's a mixture of kind kind of weird Catholicism the desire to go back and refight the Crusades. Yeah that's something. I'm looking forward to. Yeah point of view His claim that he's not beating up on immigrants but I'm sorry. The net effect of these policies is to beat up on. Immigrants does a scene in American Dharma. Uh which I hustled over. The Baron is sitting there in my quonset hut derived from twelve o'clock high. And he's telling you about his daughter at West Point is daughter. West Point is part of the volleyball team and he notices says in a corner or boxes where the student uniforms student uniforms came from. And it's stamped made in Vietnam and he starts muttering to me muttering to himself the old and me about made in Vietnam and I walk the myself. What is really about saying here? Is he saying that. Our enemy has now become our global trading partner and that's obscene that there should be a big tariffs that there should be laws that prevent this kind of thing that we're losing American jobs because we're we're giving them to our enemies Blah Blah and Blah or. Is it even more deeply racist these saying you know these Heathens You might as well call them Chinese for all intents and purposes as far as they're concerned are creating garments that are being put against the most intimate areas of our womenfolk in America. Think you so you think. That's the subtext of think that's floating around in there. Do I do really well. Is it in that. Because he sets up in that scene which I think is is is pretty telling. Look it's it's there's nothing revelatory about somebody saying that I've heard a million people say we lost fifty six thousand people in Vietnam and then I you know jumper that says made in Vietnam but he frames his as a war of freedom and liberation. He's he's talking to the Viet Cong against globalism. And it's amazing thing for a man who was inspired by you as he says in the film to make his movie about out Ronald Reagan in that movie is about victory in the Cold War. These two things are the only incoherence that I saw immediately in that film or or in Bengal entity all as he talks about the Soviet Union's great enemy and he tries but the Viet Cong these freedom fighters that are being bombed by these technocrats like rubber McNamara. It's an it's an amazing thing to and that's what makes him solid. Chomsky may say the freedom fighters of the Vietnam and communist global elite. Who wants to you know? Bomb them into submission mission but I keep thinking I kept thinking while I was making the film. And I'm still thinking along similar lines. You call yourself a populist. Okay that's on Man of the people the forgotten middle class income wage inequality so it should plan to do about it. Well well your plan Sir seems to me will build walls on the border bill. That wall will keep those Mexicans out of our country and free up all those jobs that they were taking for. American workers will end globalism of every stripe and variety United Nations. Who needs it NATO? Bye By Let's vulcanized the world all over again. Because we know in the twentieth century all these little nation states produced a lovely time for all particularly for the Jews in Eastern Europe. What the hell is he talking about? You made Hugh told sign an interview about your cameraman. Whose Croatian in the conversation he had with bannon about Yugoslavia? which is exactly what you're talking about here talk about the Balkans being balkanized gave us the word? So he told her cameraman. That that's the end of Yugoslavia was a positive thing right. And you're caraman. Who is Croatian responded? In what way this is I know positive benefit. It led to chaos to genocides among unspeakable horror. It's nutty politics and in the end it's hard to believe this is an ideology and not some kind of patent medicines. Some kind of snake oil. That's being peddled to do a susceptible group in America. Is that your read from you. Spend what five days with Ben a lot longer than okay and what did you did. You think it's just in the end like this is snake oil this is. There's nothing to this. I call it the PIE graph question. Yeah how do you WanNa draw up the PIE. What proportion what piece of the Pie snake? Neko oil salesman. What part of the PIE is true? Ideologue through belief. I don't know you didn't get any sense of if you believe stuff. I get a sense that he does believe something. Yeah Yeah I believe angry. This is the politics of the anger. But what does it guy fury in. Look I I understand how and I disagree with people. Say That because you went to Harvard Business School and you worked for Goldman Goldman Sachs and did quite well in Hollywood that you cannot be a somebody. WHO's an angry ultimately working class kid from Pittsburgh? I think he's from Pittsburgh Virginia. Yeah but you know what is the Eh the society that produced him one would presume is one that he would celebrate that he could rise up through the ranks. And do this well being of working class kid. I'm not that's the thing that I don't quite understand his anger. Like what sort of precipitated the anger did he give you any sensitive really partially the sense that he was a failed eld banker that things did not work out as well as he might have hoped. Hollywood not exactly sure what the end produces this kind of anger a point in the American Dharma or I describe I. Trump is the fuck you president the president who I mean if Jesus died for our sins then trump says fuck you for everybody. You provides the opportunity I wanNA say fuck you to your family. Fine you WANNA say fuck you to your neighbors go for it. You WanNa say fuck you due to the state to the world to the cosmus go fuck yourself everything. He's your guy he really is. It's an immensely destructive. There's a difference of course between trump in baton because trump seems to me e acrylic an opportunist self dealer a criminal bannon and in seems to have this underlying rage this desire to destroy everything when I burn everything at the yeah. It's following his own prescription for what's going to happen to the world. He told he told a friend of mine. Ready to of former socialist of the sixties turned sort of neo con that he was a Leninist and he believed that he identifies Leninist. Not An ideological way. But in a way that it's nineteen seventeen and we have to shoot the family of his are in the basement to the Finland station the train heading towards Russia. I mean you and you speak about trump from some position of knowledge because you interacted with trump and you shot something trump. That never really. Well I read the papers occasionally I read that too but you sat in front of him and you you you. You interviewed him I did what was that project. Never materialized that it it didn't materialize. It's on the Internet. It's full film though. I was hired by the producer. The Oscars Laura Ziskin into a film on that would run at the very very beginning of the Oscars and the brief was that I should talk to people about their favorite movies it was a five minute film mostly soundbites of one kind or another occasionally. I use the opportunity to create something that could be used in a longer piece. I had in New York at that time in the green room at one time. If you can believe this I had Jessye Norman I had Mikhail Gorbachev Iggy pop and Donald Trump. This is the beginning of incredibly credibly. Bad joke angry from to all in the same green I leave. We also added at some point Walter Cronkite. So they're all there. That's that's amazing. I mean what is this and a trunk that Gorbachev who after all was previous head of state playing that Gorbachev was taken before he was I interviewed Gorbachev at some length out. His favourite films loves Kofsky. Sitting there talking with Mikhail Gorbachev about the mirror I mean it's pretty amazing and then trump comes in and trump wants to talk about citizen Kane. Sound Bite I used for the Oscars. Donald Trump talking about king Kong and the soundbite was he came in Concord. New York I could identify with that On the news it's the most donald trump thing in the world the big ape and but we talked independently it wasn't used in the final piece for the Oscars we talked about citizen Kane and it was pretty the amazing. You can find it on Youtube when I watched that. He was seemed more coherent than than he does. Now he probably was more. It is now. He seems like not a total dummy. which is what when you see him doing this? Alba Daddy press conference. You're like is this a joke. Is this some sort of bit that he's doing whereas that he seemed you know kind of straightforward optically bright. But he didn't seem like he was incapacitated. Like he seems TMZ now but you know that never became film we thinking about making that into a larger firm at one time. I thought of doing something with all those outtakes explained that the long long time ago. So how did how did that exact same thing. Can you talk to Bannon about films that he loves in a way I asked him. Yeah do you have any advice for Charles Foster Kane the protagonist citizen citizen Kane. Any advice for this gentleman and his advice was marriage is clearly part is advice was get yourself a different woman. Yeah that seems about what I would expect him to say why. Not The twelve o'clock high. Though in American Dharma you talked to Bannon under his movies. The movies that he loves was that something I mean. Obviously it was something before you know you thought of before shooting because you shoot this in a place as that. Looks like a hanger for B fifty. Two's in World War right out of twelve o'clock high high right. No one of course who sees. Maybe this is my big mistake. No one sees twelve o'clock high but it's the essence of Bannon. He goes to Harvard Business School. They show them the whole damn class. It's twelve o'clock try. What's it about winning at all costs? You don't think about right and wrong. You don't don't think about anything. Except what winning winning and more winning and so here you have a movie about our triumph over fascist Germany paganism model for the twenty sixteen election. which I suppose who is? You could construe as an attempt to impose fascism in America. Talk high the the protagonist. Those are the ones that are bombing. The hell out of Fascist yes so. He's flipped it and why in a way well well because he well he in a way. I don't believe I don't believe that he's a fascist. Do you. This is a slippery slope. Hope here I suppose you could say what kind of fascist and is he an old fashioned nineteen forties this kind of fascist now probably not Beating up on immigrants And he globalism All of these things have fascist elements. Tell them probably I would hesitate before calling him an out and out fascist. How do you categorize this this kind of mess? You said that you didn't think he was necessarily a populist either. So what would you call Steve. Bannon I'm probably not necessarily call them anything. But I think there's there's a lot of headlines that say you know Errol Morris's giving the kid gloves treatment to fascist which I think is incredibly unfair. Because I don't I don't think it's necessary to engage with someone like Steve Bannon. I knew a lot more going out than I did when I started the film. But Yeah I the the essence of his ideology. I don't I don't know how to categorize and I don't think it's fascism in populism. I think is too soft baby opportunism. You think is that I think there certainly certainly as an element there. Of course I do. He was one of the first people to recognize that the Internet it changed everything. And it's an important thing to realize I've always been fascinated by this. Famous dissent sent by Oliver Wendell Holmes Junior issue of free speech case before the US Supreme Court Abrahams and I and homes wrote about the marketplace of ideas. Them how you send something out into the world into the so-called marketplace of ideas It's pushed around. Jostled challenged impeach whatever and somehow the truth from this process emerges that might have been true eight years ago. My not have been true. Might have been true but in a world of the Internet one wonders. If you have have a hundred million people saying untruth and one person saying truth what chance does it have billy. So what do you. What do you do about that? Does it change the way it's simple. You kill yourself you kill yourself. I was GONNA suggest that I don't know if that was a little harsh to say. Hey off yourself this solution right but I mean the the argument in a way is made about this film is that you shouldn't be putting these ideas is up there. I mean I find this appalling that the people who in some way I respect whether it is David remnant or other people that I see writing about this so you should not be platforming ideas because this is what happens in the Internet. You have Holocaust. I'll videos on youtube should be taken down and I think there's a thanks liberty slope of what what we do about these ideas and the Internet. I mean I think that exposing people to Fred and his report is you know we have to have have some trust in people. Don't we that they can actually filter the good ideas from the bad and you know. I think that's what bannon relies on people not being able to do that. Breitbart is what's interesting about the loser Phil Mr Death which I should have entitled Honeymoon and outfits. Because that's where Fred Ed. And his honeymoon unusual honeymoon destination people became very I angry at early. iterations of the film was still editing. Because they thought I did not make it clear Fred was wrong about everything or nearly everything part of my style and it gets me into into trouble repeatedly I'm a great believer in irony. A great believer in allowing people to show you out crazy easy they really are and clearly. It has limits should have learned that By now and if I resisted it's only because I'm some kind of perverse motherfucker in the loser film I conventionally head to head material making it absolutely clear that all of his work on Holocaust Austin I'll he was deeply deeply full of shit me. It's obvious just listening to him but it. It wasn't obvious enough so you added that. I mean there's an expert that comes in and says this guy doesn't know what he's talking about these samples taken from Auschwitz. Don't don't don't tell you anything that's correct. You added that after the fact you shut that later part of it was added after the fact yes and that was because nobody seen the film who's complained who complained about it. I show you the film and a number of different classes I I mean is this kind of why you include in American Dharma. Steve Bannon saying that he loved the fog of war and it inspired him to get into films the way that people internalize your films. You seem a little horrified in America that he says that quiz horrified. Why wouldn't I be? Well it's because you have no control over how people in internalizes that the I mean would you change a thing about that film. Says the ban wouldn't have a positive reaction to it now. Oh Yeah but one thing I learned in making American Dharma Stephen and I sit down and we watch movies together movies that he himself suggested that we watch together and talk about. Do you watch them together. Yes okay you see us watching yes I never uses if you had actually sat down and watched the whole thing not the whole thing. He picked scenes scenes that he wanted to talk about from twelve o'clock High A.. From Orson Welles chimes at midnight from David Liens bridge on the river. Kwai qualify to Stanley Kubrick Spasm glory depict him and we talked about them. There has to be one of the more surreal experiences of my life. Because Steve Bannon solve these movies completely differently from me. I mean the total opposite. I mean you arguing about certain scenes in the film. Yeah aw yeah we argue about sir. John Falstaff in chimes of midnight is is. He horrified depressed by Henry. The fifth rejection for me. Yeah Yeah yes Steve Bannon no fulfillment of Dharma fulfillment of destiny. It's the three DS duty destiny. Dharma Ma get with. It says the same thing about fog voice. There's no I don't see your film that way at all. I see it this way and it seems to have I mean. Had you heard anyone and read that film the way the Steve Bannon no not really occurred to me that this destiny duty Dharma deal. I found another team for the three DS. The three you could justify anything anything that way after all does the fulfilment of Dharma. You Act in such a way as you're going to win I'm here tells a story. He tells these amazing stories in the movie in some of the most amazing stories. I've ever put on film He tells hugh that the Access Hollywood tape comes out. People think this guy is done for. You don't talk like that. The president of the the United States doesn't start calling about grabbing him by the Pussy. It's somewhat uncouth. Correct me if I'm wrong. I've I thought it was done that day. To people thought he was done for and Bannon taking the general savage roll. Oh the Gregory Peck role from twelve o'clock. High lectures his troops. The campaign plane is leaving at ten o'clock. You're either on it or you're off the campaign Chris Christie and it is really really interesting. How the twenty sixteen election is a realization of many pan-ion's craziest ideas? That come where they come from becoming come out of but he was right though. It wasn't the about that tape and I talked to him. I went out and shot things that people who said Yeah. We all talk like that where I work. Can you guys in your bubble. Don't understand how we talk. And did Steve Bannon understand those people better than we did. I mean perhaps he understood something. Aw He understood. Things can really be flipped on their heads so easily. I'll ever I forget this moment. Actually it was in the second debate with Hillary Clinton where Hillary Clinton calls him a puppet and he says I'm not a puppet euro-puppet you're a puppet puppet puppet topic puppet which is the Roy Cohn playbook someone accuses you of something thank you. Don't miss a beat. You go back and accused them of exactly the same thing and maybe no one will notice. It's being done again and again and again and again it's being done in these impeachment proceedings as we speak It's a good timing for film by the because it's the reemergence of Bannon now. I've seen a lot of articles about this. He's doing a radio show about impeachment and he's doing his traveling the thing with the media saying pay attention to me again. I am telling you the truth about impeachment. It's essentially a coup d'etat and we're talking about it every day from the quote Unquote Breitbart Embassy. and He'd been Kinda quiet for about a year but in Europe Muslim been making noise in Europe rather than in the United States. He's back here for all those people who thought that deep platforming this guy was going to make things better in America. Think again does that. Does that ever work because that is a trend right now and it affects. I think people would do what I do. Is that you know. I know again a lot of people who think this is an effective tactic of D. platforming America was freaked out after the election. I was freaked out after the election and people wanted to believe it didn't happen. It's a natural human tendency if you pretend it's not there maybe maybe it isn't call it the ostrich mentality. I'll stick my head in the whole ground and it will vanish low it doesn't vanish it. Still Air I would say. America is in danger. We're in terrible danger injure if I had one call is wake up America or endanger and ignoring. What's going on around us or pretending that it isn't happening is not going to do anybody? Any good from the disaster of Vietnam which you didn't credible film disaster Iraq. Another incredible film to this. You know disastrous moment to I mean is this I I mean it seems that sort of of a piece in America you have these kind of seems like I like disaster. Do your disaster. I mean do you think that this is is is gonNa keep going I mean. Do you seem rather pessimistic about about this. Both in the film which was shot. Probably what a year and a half ago yes And today Eh. But we're up against the the the potential end of this either through impeachment and I don't think it's very likely or two thousand twenty. Do you think that this continues. I feel burn by this film Call me stupid uh-huh. I thought that I was weighing in on politics on the twenty eighteen twenty twenty elections. Possibly I could do some good. I thought it was a mistake. Just to sit on my ass and do nothing examining this phenomenon was away of. I'm trying to understand it and to deal with it. I don't think I know that I had a very limited committed. Understanding of how fucked up his country is at how crazy. This country has become both on the left and the riot from his Driven everyone in Sam believe in a kind of insanity That doesn't seem to be coming to any swift. You say you thought I don't understand why you frame it that way. I thought that I was doing good. I thought that I was. This is an exposition. You've done. I think he's succeeded. I why do you think you didn't succeed at the European to deb. Nice already I mean I don't I I think it is strange. You shouldn't listen to the seven shrieking hyenas. He's got air battle. Moore's is doing something terrible by giving Steve Bannon a platform and also there is something about shrieking hyenas they do. Get your attendant do but I think he let it affect you too much Josh. You say it's your best film so it can't be. I think that you probably know that you succeeded in somewhere right. I would hope that the movie would get out tomorrow. People more people would think about it talk about it. Why do you make these films? Presumably if there is a reason that people will watch them. Think about them talk about him. Engage in some kind of discussion around them that. I think that that's happened quite a bit. I mean you so maybe I've succeeded. You trying to make me feel better myself. How dare you don't yourself sad? You just don't do that. I think the funniest thing that I've ever very. I think this is a piece of this. Conversation too is refer to Donald. Rumsfeld is the least Jewish person you've ever met in your life. Yeah she's like this is. You're having a very Jewish reaction to your movie right now. Donald Rumsfeld is you know. Oh he's that down the line tells you exactly what it is. He has no sense of irony. has though sort of sense of self loathing or questioning himself you you have too much of it you. You're doing too much of the. The fog of war change the narrative about how we view Vietnam without a doubt really. Yes I mean the macnamara book people are not going the McNamara book and reading and saying Oh yeah sure. They're watching that film and getting a different sense of the best and the brightest who guided US deeper and deeper into the Miranda Vietnam. That's your film. The book right trying to be nice to you. Well thank you think. This film is a failure. In that way. The American way you think each of these movies is an investigation of some hind and Like who are these people. Who are these people who have had such a dramatic effect on the destiny of? You've all of US certainly destiny of America Iraq Vietnam trump. Who are they and I just read in some review? That was really nice to me that I had failed. I have to fail in everything. I had failed in Rumsfeld because I had not been able able to penetrate is veneer I really like. Hey Al give this away. I really like Rumsfeld film because I've never had a character like that in front of my camera. Not a person who wouldn't crack but I became more and more convinced as the interviews went on on over hours and days but there was nothing there to crack but it was all the near Al- Assad all acting of one kind or another. It was an amazing empty performance. And the emptiness is what I'm left. Left with from the unknown known It may not be entirely satisfying to an audience. Fuck him it satisfying to me. Because I feel I learn something. Learn something about who these people Are who control the destiny of so many many many many people. That is a very real possibility that that is just. It's not veneer. This is Donald Rumsfeld. And he's just out there in the surface exactly what he gives you is exactly what he is. And he's hiding nothing because there's nothing to hide he doesn't have any shame. And the way he prosecuted that war or you know his service the Nixon administration or anything. I the one thing I find strange reading reviews news of your films. And you've mentioned it too is that I don't under a lot of people don't understand or I think they don't but I'm GonNa ask you what you think. The purpose of an interview is because because it seems to be combat from people. You didn't get enough punches in. You didn't hit him where I wanted you to hit him. I WANNA see him against the ropes and you banging on his his stomach until he passed out. I don't see interviews that way. What you go in to talk to somebody who a lot of Americans loathe whether it's McNamara Rumsfeld old or Bannon are you're not thinking about this as scoring a knockout punch on you? I don't like adversary will introduce because Euler nothing. It's a way of creating species drama. I just wrote a piece for airmail on the nature of energy use as a great and Carter is new thing. Yeah Yeah it's in there and and part of what I talk about is a good interview for me and interviews. Let's be honest here. There's zillions millions of different kinds of interviews. There isn't just one way to do an interview. One Way to talk to another person You know it can range from fuck you too. I love you to me. You're creating a situation where people wanNA talk to you. And they want to reveal something you and in my experience the so-called difficult question a hard ardian question the question that throws the adversary on the ropes and forces them to Kirs or to an apology. Asia the really work. The most surprising things I've heard by career as a filmmaker maker and in the many many interviews that I've done with people house and come in response to it any question that Jason Slow reveal of them a situation where people wanna say things to me. I was prepared to listen. Why do you think they want to do that? I mean they're on camera camera. I mean there's something that's the question always with when people look at your interview subjects that why are these people talking. Morris I mean this is not going to end well L. for them. I mean that's what most people would. I've been Donald Rumsfeld. I'm sure looks at that film. It doesn't say you know. This is the great you know. You know monument humint my greatness and this is exactly what I believe is made y'all gene it's compacted in that film. I mean I watched and don't look. It doesn't look like he comes out of that quite very well. Rumsfeld at first light the film McNamara Never said anything to be about fog of war but but after he died his son. Craig told me that. His father really liked the fog of war. But don't tell Aryl. So why. Why do people talk to you? I don't know why you are you talking to me because I mentioned foam is easy for me to have some kind of like like you know a surgeon. General's warning my chest saying talking to me could be injurious to your health. Think twice I mean you watch the films and say this is the greatest idea this is mostly. I mean I've seen this question has two times. I'm sure you've been asked a million times of that you know how do you is. The hardest thing as is a journalist is not sitting down to interview somebody. It's getting them to sit down in the first place it'd be the hardest part. Is there anyone that in these great great figures of the twentieth century who changed America and the way that some of these figures did that refused to that with you the people which one do you regret the most that they didn't see to your desire to be interviewed. I wanted very much to interview James Komi years and years and years ago and it fell through because he got appointed by Barack Obama as the director of the the FBI and he could no longer do the interview. Little onset people that I've wanted to interview why Comey then I mean people tend to think Komi in the context of Muller and those thing but prior that was there was there bigger story that you're interested in the story of stellar wind and the fourth amendment and the stand against Gonzales and adding new well forgotten I mean almost completely forgotten bit of Bush history. Yes yes but but that never came to that never came to pass. Why not and that was just because he became the he otherwise he was gonna sit down and do I believe he was? Yeah I still would like to do it. I think he's talking a lot more now. I'll finish up with this. I mean I appreciate you doing this and it is what are you. What are you hoping for this film now that it actually has a wider release? This'll be mostly an art. Has the places teijin films in the past but but it is streaming so people. Yeah and look at it in the privacy. If you don't want to be seen in public washing his Steve Bannon filled. You can wash it in the privacy of your own band arrives it. It arrives in an unmarked envelope. A Brown paper Satchel no markings on it whatsoever. If someone asks you what's that you can just lie why but you can watch it nonetheless and I would appreciate it if he would do so and buy it online maisy coming out at the same time streaming at the same time. Oh I think there's a delay here is usually here when I don't know why. Yeah well at least a certain theatres and did ban the film yes correct answer should be one of the ask him but yes. He liked the film while as the last time I emailed him he told me to go. Fuck myself so I will land. That's not a big fan headline so if I ask them. Hey what do you think. Moore's until probably say I thought I told you to go fuck yourself and said that it's my best film so we agree on that and he offered to help me promote the film. We did not agree that I felt that I should in this instance go it alone. Did it make you uncomfortable at all that he wanted to promote. This film is a simple answer to that Steve Bannon and things that you think you have to sort of reassess things if stephen loves you as much L.. Thank you so much for for allowing me to not really interrogate you talked about. The film is an interrogation. With wasn't no. This is a softball this is softball. Want want you ask me think of me. As a subject whose withholding vital information and you have to get it out on me depends on what the information to try to get it out of me any. Your mission is to save America but you have information that could help me do that. Absolutely Louis One would presume that I knew that information was just generally what would that be just wing it. You know I'm GonNa let America die because as you said before the only answer to all the stuff suicide so I'm just GonNa let it all collapse and we can. We can end on that and thank you for and the onset of a dour out. I think it's an optimistic note. The fact that do come to an end is optimistic throughout your Mystic really optimistic about skin things coming to an end the country life. It's not entirely. I don't believe that I have a child who I rather like you. And who is going to be on stage with you tonight. He is interviewing you. Yes and can you tell us anything about the project you're doing with your son Hambleton. We're doing a leary project together. That's appropriate Much to my surprise he's interested in drugs. I is yeah I mean I've heard something about this. You know he talks about a little bit He's incredibly bright. But he's like a chemist though there's a lot of things I mean most people who are interested in drugs or you know that I know ended up sleeping in bus stations. You know Hamilton knows a lot about this rather clever way so anyway well good luck with the film and very much. You'll see tonight. Good thank you okay. Yes perfect on so we'll be at the theater.

Steve Bannon America Donald Rumsfeld Vietnam Donald Trump Errol Morris president Steve Robert McNamara Fred White House United States Aero Moore Fred Leuchter Earl Morris Hamilton Morris. youtube Harvard Business School WanNa Breitbart
101: Alex Gibney on how Theranos fooled Silicon Valley

Pure Nonfiction: Inside Documentary Film

37:06 min | 2 years ago

101: Alex Gibney on how Theranos fooled Silicon Valley

"Yeah. Welcome to pure nonfiction the podcast interviewing documentary film-makers. I'm Tom powers the documentary programmer for the Toronto international film festival and artistic director of dock and Weiss e. On this episode. I talked to director, Alex Gibney and producer Aaron etiquette about their film. The inventor out for blood in Silicon Valley, the film investigates, the company theranos the promised to revolutionize healthcare. The company's founder Elizabeth homes had a vision to reinvent the processing of blood tests normally vials of blood are drawn from vein and sent to a lab under a doctor supervision homes aspired to accomplish the same thing with the MIR prick of a finger. She claimed to have invented a desktop machine called the Edison that would test hundreds of conditions without the need for a doctor's visit or await for lab results. Their nose was valued at billions of dollars before the Edison was exposed as a fraudulent device the inventor investigates. How homes kept in? Investors journalists and the public mesmerized for so long homes didn't grant an interview for the film, but give wny's team obtained extensive footage of her. Here's a clip of her giving a tedtalk the rate to protect the health and wellbeing of every person. Those we love. Is a basic human, right? Or rate defined in the United Nations Universal declaration on human rights. Yet in the United States today healthcare is the leading cause of bankruptcy homes when the confidence of many powerful people in two thousand fourteen she was profiled for the cover of fortune magazine, superstar attorney, David boies, what's her legal muscle? Aero Morris made theranos promotional films as he had previously done for apple former secretary of state George Shultz was so enthusiastic about their nose. He recruited his grandson Tyler Scholtz to work for the company Tyler eventually became disillusioned in the lab when he recognized that the Edison machine wasn't working. He's interviewed in the inventor. When I think of fair knows I really feel like there were two entirely different worlds. There was the carpeted world. And there was tiled world. In the carpeted world was where Elizabeth was a goddess everyone almost worshiped the ground. She walked on. She can do no wrong. She was the next Steve Jobs. Their nose was changing the world. And then you go onto tile side and nothing works run a sinking ship. Everything's alive. Reconciling the differences between those two worlds was really hard for me to do. I knew Lisbeth personally from all these interactions through my family. So I really trusted her believed in her. I would leave the tiled world thinking oh man sinking ship, and I would go have one conversation with Elizabeth. Action view. And I would be so motivated to go back and work. And I felt like I was changing the world again. Now, go back into the tile world how go. Which is happened. You want it to be true so badly, and even for me, I was working with these devices every single day, and she could still kind of convinced me. But I think back on those conversations. I just think like how how did she do that? The backlash the homes started with a twenty fifteen Wall Street Journal expose by reporter, John Kerry. Ru he later wrote a book on theranos called bad blood. Gibney interviews Carey ru and two other journalists who covered their nose fortune magazine's Roger power lawf- and the New Yorkers can all light up. So why did so many people believe in fair knows despite the lack of data to back it up? Give knee interviews behavioral economist, Dan Arielle. The realities that they know just doesn't sit there mind as much as stories do. It's almost like blue the glue that that takes all of the data and even more important stories have emotions that data does any motions get people to do all kinds of things. Good good end, bats, the film, overlap several figures and themes that Gibney is covered in previous documentaries such as the trials of Henry Kissinger Enron, the smartest guys in the room. And Steve Jobs. The man in the machine give knees producers on this film were Jesse Dida and Aaron etiquette Aaron his previously worked forgiveness company jigsaw productions on several other projects including his Frank Sinatra series last week, I hosted Alex Aaron fryer screening series pure nonfiction at IFC center afterwards, we had this talk in front of a lie. Live audience. I asked Alex how he got the idea to make a film about theranos originally. It was it was kind of brought to me by Richard player at HBO and Graydon Carter both of whom. Had originally been very big fans of Elizabeth and Richard. I think at one time thought of doing a follow doc, you know, the glories of Elizabeth homes, and then had read the Wall Street Journal story and seen the warm turn. And it was a different kind of story now. So he reached out to me, and I was interested in it. Because I thought it would be an intriguing tale about the psychology of fraud. Not only in terms of deception by Elizabeth homes. But how deception how she may have needed to have deceived yourself in order to deceive others and also how investors journalists and executives who were also deceived by her that process how it works. So that's what got me going at the beginning. Aaron you all this footage inside theranos. All this interview footage that you didn't conduct with Elizabeth home. Uh-huh. Talk about where you got that footage from not really. I mean at the beginning, we didn't have any of that access. And it was a it was a gift from a secret source that we cannot reveal that came to us about halfway through the edit. It changed everything for us. I mean, it was amazing. This was the kind of story that was unfolding in real time. So as the news was getting worse for Elizabeth homes and theranos people that we were trying to get access you becoming more and more comfortable with providing access to us. Both in terms of interviews. And then this gold mine of footage. It teaches you a lesson in terms of how if you keep pushing you keep reaching out to people you spread the word, you have conversations that may or may not bear fruit. But you keep, you know, establishing a kind of reservoir of trust among certain people and pushing forward and then over time sometimes good things happen at the very beginning of the process. We were completely flummoxed because. Theranos who still a going concern? And as you see from the film. There are a lot of people who were very scared of coming forward because of the potential AB sued by David boies, and that fear was prevalent. So nobody wanted to stick their heads up above the parapet to come forward. It was only the journalists at the beginning were talking that allowed us to go through t to take some interesting avenues that we may not have taken otherwise talking to Dan area Ellie digging into the Edison part of the story. But over time we were able to, you know, have this break for the other person who is hugely helpful to us over time was was John Kerry ruin he had developed a level of trust with with with people because he had been really the guy who dug out the story. So John Carew. The Wall Street Journal reporter has now published his book bad blood on this with the book with this film. Are there any theranos true believers still out there who? Push back on this narrative. Yes, he's in the film, Sagay, Tim Draper. He's got the bitcoin tie. And he believes that Elizabeth has been wronged. Here's Tim Draper in the film. I mean, we invest in a girl and a dog two guys a cat. We just say is this person going to dedicate their life and make something extrordinary happen. And yes in that case, she was that person. So many very smart people were taken by Elizabeth homes. One of them is Earl Morris who was enlisted to do a series of commercials about their nose. Can you talk about you know, your any interactions? You had with Morris around the subject, I knew that. Arrowhead been apart of the theranos publicity machine and shot material not only material for commercials, but also material for backstage stuff. And so I thought that's intriguing and I did reach out to him early and often see if he would talk about it, wouldn't that have been interesting to talk about two different experiences coming out at before and after but aero wasn't much interested in engaging at one point I did manage to spot him at a public event. And I said aero, you know. Let's talk about their nose. He said, I'm not gonna talk to you. And you can't make me I said, well, how about we just talk off the record. And he said well. For god. There is no off the record, and he can be a very unforgiving person. So I was never able to make it happen much as I tried Aaron let me ask you this question because Elizabeth Holmes does stand out as a unique female entrepreneur. And I wonder if it makes you uneasy in any way, the kind of discrediting of her since she's so unique in that respect. It's a good question. And I think that, you know, a lot of women probably have different feelings about this for me personally. She's an interesting character. And I think gender is something that you can't ignore because it's such a huge part of. I think her meteoric rise in the beginning that she was a woman coming in coming along at the right time and the right place and Silicon Valley that I think was very hungry for female inventor if Email entrepreneur so gender definitely played a role. I think in her success in I think when she was on the downfall. She tried to say that it was because she was a woman that people were paying attention to her in the story and men are allowed to fail all the time in Silicon Valley startups, and why are they allowed to fail and she wasn't. And she thought it was because she was a woman, I think. I've thought about this a lot talk to a lot of women about this. And I think that at the end of the day was homes does not represent women. And if she is the model for women in Silicon Valley than I, you know, we're all screwed. You know, at the end of the day, she committed a specific fraud and crime that is so abhorrent because it was affecting real people and their healthcare and their lives, and at the end of the day that has nothing to do with being a woman who failed or a man who failed. It was. You know, it was specifically the story is what she did. So I'm I'm hoping that you know, galvanizes the women in science and medicine to come out and. Show us what you can really do. This one thing I'd like to follow up on in that regard. And that is it's interesting why there was so much attention focused on Elizabeth and one of the reasons was I mean, she was a great storyteller and people were interested in her story. Young female entrepreneur becomes a billionaire. Well, that's the part that actually in retrospect, they feel disquieted about it's like, maybe nobody would have paid attention to her. If she weren't a billionaire that was somehow a really big deal. There are three female role models in this film that have nothing to do with Elizabeth homes of Phyllis Gardner. Very very important. Doctor and entrepreneur Silicon Valley, Erica Chung, who's a great whistle blower, and even Serena Stewart, a flat bottom astute tried very hard to the right thing. But we don't focus on those people. You know, those are real people trying to make a difference every day, but we focus on Elizabeth homes. Why because she's a billionaire and that I think is something that is worth thinking about. Alex, you'd previously made a film about Steve Jobs who comes up a lot in in. This story is Liz is maybe a role model for Elizabeth homes. Did you see any interesting connections between the Steve Jobs story and Elizabeth homes story? Yeah. There's two important ones. One is I think I think the most important thing about Steve Jobs who in his own way, tried to pretend that he was an inventor when he really wasn't. He was a storyteller. And he was a magnificent storyteller. You could see him at the beginning of his career, you know, trying to hawk the early max he looks like a Tupperware salesman. It's almost embarrassing by the end. He's masterful. I mean, he's he's doing these ipod presentations up on stage choreographed down to the to the last jot and tittle, and and and making it seem like, you know, you're in his living room hanging out with him. I was genius. So he was a great storyteller. And he was a storyteller in the Edison mold which is to say he put himself front and center at the heart of his stories, the main character in the drama, just like Edison was just like Elizabeth was so in that sense. I think they share a certain commonality Elizabeth's genius. Was that she was a storyteller mind. She was telling an extremely fictional story. But she was a storyteller. The lesson though that Elizabeth didn't learn about Steve Jobs, which is a really important lesson. And something that Phyllis garner says at the end is really important. You must always admit it. You will always admit your mistakes. Steve Jobs learned a lot from his failure. First go round, and then his failure at next in particular. So an apple two point oh comes around. He's surrounding himself with some very talented people, the John Rubinstein in charge of hardware. Avi. Veniamin who's briefly shown here in charge of software, Johnny I've designed and these people could say no to him, and he would listen to them. And so he learned from stakes in a very powerful way. The head of Toyota used to say mistakes or precious. Well, unfortunately, not for Lisbeth homes. So one of the people who work for Elizabeth homes. Tony Nugent says that they were at some point on a pathway to maybe realizing a portion of. This dream. And I and I wonder if in your reporting, you have any sense, if there could have been a different story here if they had allowed the Edison box to be bigger, or if they had taken a slower approach is their version of this where you could have had a company that would have been a disruptor in healthcare or did the people you've talked to think that this was a total fantasy. It wasn't a total fantasy because some of the technology is out there to be realized in this era. And by the way, as we briefly pointed out on the film, you know, I think that this was a an area that needed disrupting these two companies that control lab tests in question lab core have been sued often by Medicare and Medicaid for overcharging. Their prices, are terribly. Opaque and very high. So it was right for disruption, and there was a technology there. But two things one was she tried to do wait too much in terms of trying to put all this stuff in one box. There were accomplishable goals that she could have realized and also had she listened to the people around her. Maybe there would have been a path. But the big problem in this often happens with people who are struggling to realize dream, and then when they're not making it instead of paying attention to the fact that they've got problems they invest in the idea that the dream is real when it's not and that was a moment when they were desperately needed capital because they were running out of money and they had to make the deal with Walgreens. And when they made the deal with raw greens. And it was a crazy deal that was kind of bait and switch and all that. But when they made the deal with the raw greens that meant that their shitty testing was being utilized on real human. Beings that we're putting them at risk. And that was a line that was crossed that was just fatal. In this film at your interviewing a lot of reporters can let of from the New Yorker others that that we've mentioned, and and it's been true other documentaries where you've been either working alongside some writing a book or following the footsteps of of someone who's written a book, and I wonder what your working method is when you're drawing off the the report Taj of of someone else, you know, what is the the the role documentary maker has when they're working closely with someone who's done a lot of spadework. The first thing is to give them a lot of credit because they're doing great work. And you know, my dad was journalist, and I'm a huge fan of what investigative journalist do. And how hard it is to do the work. And I and I think in a way, well, we properly celebrate the work of John Kerry ru who did in extrordinary job in terms of bringing this the light. The beating heart of the film is a Roger par lawf- who the fortune makes a fortune magazine or the guy who put Elizabeth on their cover. You can feel how haunted he is even today angry. Yes and properly so but also haunted because he takes the job of journalism so seriously, and it's that kind of detective work, but also an important truth telling that's so important to him that it is literally ripping apart that he got it wrong. And so you know that aspect of it was really important. But I yes, you're right. A lot of films. I've done I work with journalists in part because I think they're they're like detectives, and and I'm a big fan of detective stories, but also, you know, I feel strongly when they have appeared in my films in terms of giving a lot of credit and in the case of carry ruin particular. He deserves a lot of credit can Aleta also dealers Kereta to he led us inside. His fact finding process, and we hear the tapes, and we. Here Elizabeth lie to him in ways that are very important. Because without that. It's just he said she said, well, you know, he gave us the ship. Aaron I presume you would have loved to have talked to Elizabeth homes and and sunny Bhawani, the president of the company key. You talk about other people that you tried to interview that you couldn't get to. I wish Jesse deeter were here tonight. She's the other producer who's west coast based and lives in Palo Alto. She first of all she was the only one of us to have met Elizabeth in person at the very beginning. She had a five hour dinner with her. Which on the basis that you're making a film about their nose or on a different basis. I on the about this film. And I think it was it was a five hour dinner where Elizabeth was really interviewing heard trying to get information about who we were speaking to and trying to, you know, I think lead us along to say, you know, if we just waited we would be able to film her at the ribbon cutting of the new theranos that there was two point. Oh, that she was very sure she was on the way to rebuilding at that point. So yeah, Jesse has a lot of wild stories about talking to Elizabeth we tried with Elizabeth many many many times every time the news got worse for her starting with the SEC coming out calling her fraud. And then the multiple lawsuits she was in. We tried every time and she declined every time. There were few instances of some of the younger female employees to in the company who still believed at that time that. They didn't want to be a part of taking down a female entrepreneur and didn't want to be involved in the film. And I mean, Walgreens, we tried to get Walgreens to come out, and you know, we speak their part and explain to us what happened and tried to tell Walgreens, we did this interview with Doug much of who describes exactly how your exects were were deceived in the testing of Edison, you know, isn't that interesting to you? And don't you want to come and talk about it? And what you guys were thinking during this process and how you are wrong as well. And you know, they they couldn't decline. I mean, so many of these people had already settled lawsuits, and there was a lot of legal ties. I think that prevented us from speaking with people. There was a ton of people. We wish we wish we could've talked to her family. I should also say that I did sit down early on with David Boyce. He's the guy also tried very hard interview for all sorts of reasons he declined he did sit down with early on. And when you were interim head already left, the company or was he still part of their he had left the company, and he said he left the company because he asked finally for test to be done on his blood and theranos kept delaying delaying kept saying finally said, okay, I'm leaving. That's what he's now. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. But I did try very hard to get him to speak on camera. And for whatever reason, he he wouldn't I do think that. What's interesting about this? And you know, Erin mentions Walgreens. Part of what is what's interesting about this story to me is how very powerful very well-heeled people and companies. Whenever presented with the opportunity to really do do do diligence did just the opposite. And just trusted. Just you know, let themselves be bowled over by. Elizabeth Walgreens is a classic example, the the two key executives at Walgreens were in touch with Elizabeth had hired a consultant to kind of kick the tires, and he said, I wanna take that machine apart and see how it works and. Elizabeth called the execs up and said, you cannot let him do that. And they backed off. And so I think in retrospect, they were terrible one of the reasons they didn't talk to us is the because they're so hardly embarrassed that they fucked up so badly, but they fucked up in the face of this kind of prison of belief to use an expression from a, you know, another film, I made which is Elizabeth was able to convince people that it was a great mission that they should all be going on. And just let her take care of the details. When I ask you about the role of NDA agreements when you're investigating a story like this. I feel like in the wake of me too scandals. We've heard a lot more about NDA agreements, and and how they have a chilling effect on journalism happening, and you know, in your experience when you're trying to talk to someone who's signed an NDA agreement. Is what is your experience? And and what does the experience when someone breaks that? Okay. I had a lot of experience with that. And. Particularly with the church of Scientology church, Scientology, got people to sign multiple NDA agreements that were extremely iron clad, and it was very hard to break through that. There was one person who was so terrified about coming forward in that film. If I had persuaded that person to come forward. Let's say I think that the consequences for certain key members of the church of Scientology would have been much greater, but this NDA thing really is a crisis. So I think for everybody here if there's a small message of what to do after something like this. It would be call your congressperson or Senator and say we have to have a law in place that tolls the power of an NDA if somebody is trying to tell the truth about malfeasance corruption because then the as are allegedly there to prevent people from leaking proprietary details. But really they're used whether it's by Harvey Weinstein or whether it's by Scientology or whether it's by David boies, boys Schiller on behalf of Elizabeth homes. They're there to prevent people from revealing corruption malfeasance criminality, and it's terrifying. And and. We're involved in some other films. Now, you know, having to do with the banking industry, and it goes across the banking industry and anybody who has information about you know, how corrupt that industry is is not permitted to talk because they're. You know, tied up with these NDA's which. They may be able to get out of answer under certain circumstances. And you can't force somebody to to be in a. You can't force somebody not to tell the truth about a crime. But people are so terrified of coming forward not knowing whether or not they're going to be protected one note to filmmakers here in the context of this though. And this is something that we went through on on this film. At your peril as a journalist or as a filmmaker. You can't encourage somebody to break toward it's called tortous interference. And that includes India, and so you have to be very cautious or you have to be very forthright with people and say, look, it's important to tell the truth. I can't give you advice about whether or not, you know, you're at risk with an NDA. That's a contract you sign it's important to tell the truth for all sorts of reasons pleased. And and if you choose to great, but you know, I it gets into tricky territory if you start to induce people to break contracts because of the way our laws were in obviously, that's the benefit that reporters have over filmmakers where they can have an anonymous source which Tyler show Twas for carry ruin the beginning. And of course, we want faces and people invoices to go on camera for us. It's, you know, so even some of the sources who had worked with Kerry would still took extra convincing or you know. You know, more bad news. I think it helped us when it was clear that the company was broadly being called a fraud, and they were running out of money, and they wouldn't have any money to sue anymore employee's that they finally started coming around. But it's a really big challenge for filmmakers in particular. That's something of course, Erica Chung says which terribly important, which is of course, one option. She's the whistle blower. She's one of the issues the whistle blower. She did go to a federal agency and say, I've got information, you know, can you protect me as a whistle blower that is protection. And so you know, that is an option for people if they find themselves in a situation where they're in a company. We're obviously criminality is going on. What is your takeaways from this story is this a story of a singular example of gigantic ace of fraud. Or are there, you know, larger lessons to be learned about Silicon Valley or or anything else? I think that Elizabeth and her own way is unique and and special, but I don't think she's. The classic bad. Apple I think she's an exaggeration of trends, we see elsewhere. I think she's an exaggeration of trend. We see in Silicon Valley this whole idea of fake Attiyah make it over promise and you'll figure it out downstream. And indeed she's an exaggeration of that going back to Thomas Edison, that's part of capitalism. Really in a way is to try to sell a dream. And then see if you can catch up to it the part of pitching documentary film. It is indeed. And by the way, I've been in that situation. I must say where I over promise. At least the beginning. I'm wondering oh my God. We don't have any footage. Nobody's agreeing to talk to us. We're in deep shit, and we try very hard to catch up. So just as Dan areo says, I think you can't you know, if. Has equips if nobody over promise that we wouldn't have any restaurants. So you know, it's like, I get it. But but I do think that there is a an element of trying to protect the promo by falsifying stuff. That's where you get into trouble. Where you believe the dream instead of the reality, and you stop telling the truth and and try to try to talk to to hide it. That's where fraud comes from. But broadly speaking again, I think the depth of the story that's really interesting to me. And where Elizabeth I think is very much. The Elizabeth story is about psychology. And really it's a psychology that it's about all of us in in some way, which is to say, nobody who does bad everything few people who do bad think, I'm doing bad, they usually rationalize it and think I'm doing something good. It's the end justifies. The means I've got this. Great thing. I'm trying to do if I have to cut a few corner. Doing some bad stuff. I'm still a basically a good person. And we all behave like that from time to time. But that should be a cautionary tale for all of us. When we see people who wildly over promise or seem to be Messana and seem to be so great. You know, it doesn't mean that they're always telling the truth, and we're susceptible to those blandishments because emotionally is Dan areola says we respond to stories because they have a certain emotional Valence and power which overrides are a are more rational ability to analyze the situation, you know, she couldn't have succeeded without being enabled by venture capitalists, and the Silicon Valley media and even her ability to convince, you know, her her board of directors and even people like Tyler shields that new things weren't working. That you know to to convince them to keep going, and that is I think something that we have to take a step back and look at what does that say about us, and how we respond to our own emotions in the stories that somebody can be compelling in telling us. J- just very quickly because I think Aaron touched on something that's really important one of the things that Elizabeth did that was so affective in terms of making the fraud work, which she surrounded herself with respectability Henry Kissinger, Jim Mattis, George Shultz, David boies, you know, article in fortune magazine article in the New Yorker, you know, investors, Larry Ellison Rupert Murdoch. You know, Joe Biden comes out. She's there with you know, Obama. That should teach us something about you know, when you see Erica Chung and Tyler Scholtz standing up and saying there's something wrong here. But everybody around them saying impossible Henry Kissinger is on the board. It teaches us a lot about respectability and the way that we will sometimes imagine that there couldn't possibly be anything wrong because it's respectable. Well, what was the crisis that just broke yesterday about college admissions? And how respectable all our colleges are in terms of being equally fair to everybody not so much. I assume that's an upcoming jigsaw productions in disgust. What the Bank, Alex, Gibney and producer Aaron Atkin for speaking. With me their film, the inventor out for blood and Silicon Valley is now playing on HBO. If you're in New York City, please join us on Tuesday nights for pure nonfiction at IFC center. Our spring season starts on April ninth and runs through the end of may, you can get more information on our website. The pure nonfiction theme music is composed by Andre Williams passed away this week at the age of eighty two when I was starting the podcast I came across his tracks. And felt they were perfect. The fact that Andre has roots in my hometown, Detroit made it even better. He's the subject of two thousand eight documentary called agile mobile hostile a year with Andre Williams directed by Tricia Todd we send our condolences Andres, family and friends. Thanks to our teen series producer and Norden swan and web designer cross strategy her executive producer is Rafael at Nate housing. I'm Tom powers. You can follow me on Twitter at T H M powers. Pure nonfiction is strict by the tiff podcast network. You can read our show notes. Learn about live events and sign up for our newsletter at pure nonfiction dot net.

Elizabeth Alex Aaron fraud Steve Jobs Silicon Valley John Kerry David boies theranos reporter Walgreens Thomas Edison fortune magazine Alex Gibney Edison Elizabeth homes Apple Erica Chung Alex producer Wall Street Journal
Black Myths on Screen: Hollywood and a Century of Race, Part Two

Ideas

55:34 min | 2 months ago

Black Myths on Screen: Hollywood and a Century of Race, Part Two

"I am speaking to you at a moment of grave crisis. I'm jeff turner and this is recall. It's a series about history not the ancient past but history that still hot to the touch in this and i explore a revolutionary political movement that brought a modern democracy to the brink. You can find recall how to start a revolution on the cbc. Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. I now i add. Welcome to ideas in the world of film. It's been called the most subtle and dangerous of lies. Oh now miss college you come on and be good jesse. I'm good have a good time to them and do i eating at the barbecue. If you don't get one vote says about this found out gone with the wind. You're going to send the message. That african americans should have been freed. They were actually happier and safer. Under slavery. one powerful trope that deeply resonated with white viewers was the black mammy character. She was the large kind presence and the screen on which white families could project. their emotional lives as it. Premiers there are major stories in american newspapers about lynchings violent brutal lynchings critic. Donald bogle called nineteen thirties. Hollywood the age of the negro servant while filmmaker julie dash says we were props in their movies familiar hills of alabama. These americans are learning to fly those tight combat formations. They'll use someday hot down the german and when world war broke out. African americans faced a dilemma fighting nazis. And the racist ideology but then what about the racist at home. Hollywood stepped in and created feature films to get black america behind the war effort when the war ended a brief and curious moment derived in hollywood filmmaking. Something called the passing genre. It was an attempt to explore a racialized society by having a black or jewish character pass as white in what they used to say down south. If you white you all right if you if you can hang around if you black stand back kyle stab of practice. You should at least consider passing the passing genre. Would itself pass quickly as the mccarthy era considered these films subversive even dangerous of the year. Thank could i your order to. I go home or go to. Your current will only would had a long distance relationship with the civil rights in america. It stayed away from the peace marches the riots. The murders assassinations preferring to view the racial crises in the rear view mirror. Instead your guess. Who's coming to dinner starring. Sidney poitier and katharine houghton looked at racism through the lens of a mixed race relationship. Critics dismissed it as a liberal. Fantasy here is ideas contributor. Mary o'connell with the second of a three part series black myths onscreen hollywood and a century of race one summer night in nineteen twenty seven african american poet and social activist. Langston hughes bumped into filmmakers. Zora neale hurston. They both happened to be traveling through the south. They decided to stop off in georgia and taken some local rural entertainment. Tonight we went out into the country for a backwoods church entertainment given by magician. It closed with his playing on a large and singing. The lord's prayer in a very lively fashion and his version began like this. Our father who are in heaven. Hollywood be name what that heart playing magician captured in the georgia backwoods that night was the godlike power of hollywood something. Many african americans understood fervent. Hope that hollywood images obam would be their ticket to achieving true equality but as the twentieth century played out the dream factory as it was called was more likely to churn out racist imagery and progressive messages. Gone with the wind was the most profitable movie of all time. The romantic glorification of the antebellum south wowed movie goers with its cinematography technicolor pilot swelling music and star power as one writer quipped. It was hollywood at its hollywood est. The movie was also widely criticized for both ignoring the horrors of slavery and disseminating racist depictions of african americans. But there was an even bigger drama going on behind the scenes gone with the wind. It was said would. Just be a repeat of the nineteen fifteen racist blockbuster. The birth of a nation but this drama would involve black actor howdy mcdaniel hollywood studio executives and a man named walter white. I'm going to lincoln summarized me and win. By all means you have succeeded in dehumanizing the negro when you have placed him wear the ray of hope is blown out as in the darkness of the down or you wait sure that the demon you have a rows will not carry and rin you. Walter white was fond of quoting lincoln. He was a bi racial man with blonde hair and blue eyes and already a legend within the national association for the advancement of colored people. The reason his light skin allowed him to pass as white and infiltrate the ku klux klan. And expose lynchings. Walter white would soon set his sights on hollywood. Jill want is a professor of history at california state university san marcos so walter white was dynamic in his way. He was very stubborn and for many people even in the same way. Cpi they found him a bit overbearing. He was also. I have to add enamored with hollywood as the head of the end. Boise didn't have trouble getting invitations to attend. Hollywood dinners. that puck performers. in hollywood. Never been invited. To part. I think hollywood moguls courted him. He had power within very important civil rights organization than i have to think that part of it has to do with racism that they were comfortable with him because walter white. If you've met him you would have taken him for a white man as a civil rights leader gone with the wind was walter weitz crucible. He wanted to ensure racist images and language stayed out of the movie he was determined to meet with the film's director. David o cells nick. Once it was optioned than voice pecan began pressuring the studios not to make it because they were fearful that what would happen would be a repeat of what happened with birth of a nation nonetheless. Mgm in go ahead and begin making the film. They keep assuring end away. Scipion walter white that. It's going to be fine that they're going to make a better version of gone with the wind than the book was but nobody really vice that and alter white kind of demands over and over again to be incorporated as an adviser in some former for celtic to work with the black community. Stormtrooper became the idol of kepler's. Persecution was on the march. Now that meant the concentration camp torture. I understand jill in their meetings. David o cells. Nick and walter white cells neck actually reminded walter white that as a jew as a member of a race quote that is suffering very keenly from persecution these days. I am most sensitive to the feelings of minority peoples. an quote. David o sells said that but when it came to african americans did he mean it. I think that thing about celtic though is he may be saying that and he may even think he believes it but if he did why doesn't he bring in a block advisor onto the film and why why he bending over backward to avoid that to not address while to rights issues. Walter white would have been there in a minute to watch. Every single scene being filmed if celtic had asked him. But he doesn't do it. He also says if we get good to involve. African american advisors are going to change the direction of this films. So knowing celtics mine. I can say you know. He talked a lot about anti-semitism and he was very defensive. Gun with the win. But i don't see him. Contributing a lot to the black efforts to strike free quality voting rights and their white members of the nwa cpi. I don't see him there. Walter white was a worry for david. L. cells nick so the director looked for other powerful voices in the black community journalist and film critic earl. Morris was a big get he'd described hollywood's black actors as economic slaves forced to play demeaning. Roles jill watt says morris was wined and dined and treated like royalty on set. The journalist assured his readers that salesman promised african americans would not be disparaged in the film. Howdy mcdaniel who played the central character of. Mammy also spoke up saying in her words. Don't worry there's nothing. In this picture that would injure colored people. If there was i wouldn't be in. It then came another battle onset. David l. cells nick fought to keep the n. Word in the final script for what he claimed was historical authenticity after all he reasoned it was in the novel. An internal debate raged cells neck pleaded. Can't we just use the n word with care. But finally under pressure from his own staff and black actors the n. word was removed. Jill watts thanksgiving sales. Nick was blind to the idea that overall gone with the wind would end up at. Its core defending slavery and reinforcing notions of black inferiority when the premium rub gone with the wind was held in atlanta. That city became part of tinseltown. Private planes descending from the heavens carrying stars like clark gable livia haviland vivian lee and of course david o cells make three hundred thousand fans cheered a grand parade choirs speeches lightning flashes from paparazzi but howdy mcdaniel and other black actors were not invited to the premier cells net complied with southern wishes. Also agreeing that had. He's name and pitcher. Be taken off the movie programmer world premiere. Southern hospitality is at fever. Pitch as distinguished visit as a ride atlanta's few remaining voicing guests as it premiers mary. Their major stories. In american newspapers about lynchings violent and brutal lynchings lynching legislation is pending on the floor of the house. And the senate. And it's being voted down and you have you have a movie which suddenly suddenly underscores the fact that racial violence is okay. A tree man remains the and the room swing in cameron. Bailey is the artistic director and co head of the toronto international film festival. Remember hollywood was a fantasy to begin with created largely by immigrants often jewish immigrants from europe who were creating a fantasy of what white america was right so stripped from race stripped from religions from the really more earthy roots that made america and this fantasy of gleaming white protagonists was what we all bought the portrayal of characters as tragic heroes in gone with the wind was embraced by white america and there was another trope that deeply resonated with white to the figure of the black mammy. She was the large kind presence. A racialized screen onto which white families could project. Their emotional lives in gone with the wind. When headed mcdaniel plays at part in the found She really engages in of the public emotional display to stand in for the display that the white couch was either did not necessarily save it or they may not have wanted to exhibit so it gets displaced onto the black made. Charlene register is the author of african american actresses the struggle for visibility. She traces the idea of the mammy. Figure back to a white woman in black face. Who was the original aunt. Jemima until a former slave stepped into the role at the eighteen. Ninety three world's fair in chicago from aunt jemima to the hollywood made the mammy figure does not have an interior life and she never seems to have a family of her own. All her comfort goes to the white family she works for. And i just wanna say that m my critique of some of these made figures. I discovered that frequently. They serve as males surg figures for white women because many of the films where they have the black made the white woman is generally without a male figure in her life so her black mate stands in a kind of surrogate male figure. But over the course of the fam- they generally will gain a male figure of a husband up boyfriend and in addition to that particular with headed mcdown her relationship to scarlet gone with the wind. I argue that she becomes the disc embodied choice of the white scarlet because she represents her internal salts or inner cautious so she reminds scarlet when scarlett misbehaves. She reminds her that scarlet know. What is the right thing to to Even though you in denial about doing the right thing in addition to bearing the motion burden of the fill the large bosom black made was a metaphor of plentitude for feeding the white family literally and emotionally. But how do you mcdaniels. Onscreen miami inspired a hugely mixed response in some african american circles. She was accused of playing an uncle. Tom other movie fans both white and black called aspects of her performance. Powerful even masterful especially her final scene in gone with the wind scarlet and ritz child. Bonnie blue has been killed in an extent writing for pony and as the family is ripped apart. That's exactly the moment had he steps in bali and olivia to have one who plays. Melanie arrives at scarlet and retz house. Hattie mcdaniel's character. Mammy opens the door and tells her that. Mr as she calls him has locked himself in. Bonney blue's bedroom and he won't come out. I would mind these last couple of moment. Never see no men black wanted to so there's nothing anyone can say that can resolve this grief and she bakes melanie to go up right. That's what she calls her to go up and speak with them. Visconti as she ascends the staircase he mcdaniel weeps over butler's tremendous grief over the death of his child and daddy's locked himself in the room when he won't come out stop mamedov she begins to weep and she weeps in a very controlled way a way that indicates grief however a very restrained grief. Somehow the characters touched by the tragedy. She isn't going to lose control. What's jill striking about this scene to me. How isn't ingratiating herself to white people. She's communicating. I feel sorrow for you. The white family i serve but i have a boundary. I feel sorrow for you. But i am not here soro your receptacle. That's stunning type run. I think that's exactly right. Mary i think that that is so well put when they interview here and they ask her where your inspiration comes from. She says i got it from calling up the spirit of harriet tubman spirit of surgery truth to african american women who resisted slavery and i think that evoking women of resistance invoking her own experience with starvation as a young black child in america facing that. Racism is what fuels mammy and her mind when world war two broke out. The pittsburgh currier the largest black newspaper in the us coined the term the double v the double victory campaign. It compared white. America's treatment of african americans to nazi germany's treatment of jews. The term ignited a debate. Should blacks fight. Fascism in europe and at home to gain respect and civil rights documentaries like wings for this man which is narrated by ronald. Reagan had only one agenda wooing black america into the war without ever mentioning reese here above the warm familiar hills of alabama. These americans are learning to fly those tight combat formations. They'll use some day down the german jap above his own cities. You can't judge a man here by the color of his eyes or the shape of his nose on the flight strip. You judge a man by the way he flies. Here's the answer to wait often. Hero hito here's the answer to the propaganda jackson. Not he's the one that i find really the most fascinating is the negro soldier under the broad umbrella of army films. That frank capra oversaw and it was meant to Raise morale among black soldiers. Soldiers believed in this great country. Granted we may with your help judith. Wise failed is the author of hollywood. Be die name. And a professor of religion and african american studies at princeton. All the people shall not perish from this earth and so it. It's a curious thing that that the film is set in part in the context of a church and a sermon. And so it's kind of unexpected place for a religious context to to frame military morale so the film was was written by an african american writer. Carlton moss directed by a white director. Stuart heisler it does the work of making military service kind of sacred duty that african americans have performed and it became a way for For the idea that african americans were fighting for victory abroad and victory at home. Meaning the fight civil rights. If truth is the first casualty of war than lies rumors and innuendo soon flooded the black community the movie. We've come a long long way by white producer. Jot goldberg is a case in point in this film. African americans were warned. That hitler would outlaw the n. Double acp and suppress black entertainers and actor provides the words of the film's narrator now. We know that the church is the foundation of our race. If hitler and his hate could have their way he would destroy these beautiful houses of worship. Now if he would do that to his own race what would happen to the negro whom he considers without a soul now. There was quite a bit of manipulation going on here. The nwa c. p. Called jack goldberg film propaganda disgusting because the idea was basically. Hey if was blocked. Think you've got it bad now. Wait till hitler gets a hold of you right was this tactic. Used more than once in the negro soldier that yes hitler was worse In part because one of the arguments the film made was kind of corruption of christianity. So that was a danger. So hitler and the nazis were danger to democracy a danger to christianity and The racism of the nazis would be danger to african americans and so that victory had to be one right but I'm just wondering judith. How strongly held was the belief among african americans. That okay if we go to fight right on behalf of america against hitler this will speed up the fight for our own rights. I know that African american thinker w. e b d. Boys he believed this but overall how deeply held was his conviction. I think. I think it was a deeply held conviction. The cycles of this kind of expression of hope and patriotism are are many in african american history so there is a big debate in black communities about whether to participate in in the great war and world war one and two boys publishes an editorial titled close ranks. Where he he makes the case that it's better to participate then not because of this kind of possibilities of military service for civic inclusion after world war one when black soldiers return home we get the what's called the red summer of nineteen nineteen and there are attacks on black men wearing uniforms and We get some of that as well. As as soldiers return home after world war two German prisoners of war held in the united states in southern camps are are treated better than african american soldiers so too fraught hope for sure but it is the case that that it does energize the civil rights campaign a new. You're listening to ideas on. Cbc radio one. In canada. Across north america on sirius. Xm in australia on abc radio national and around the world at cbc dot ca slash ideas. You can also hear us on the cbc. Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts iowa. I n parents if you're looking for some screen free family fun while you're staying home. Check out the story store podcasts. From cbc kids and cbc podcast new story store. Shorties are released every week. These short original and hilarious stories fit anywhere in your day from breakfast to bedtime. The story store available on smart speakers or wherever. You get your favorite podcasts. I'm speaking to you at a moment of grave crisis i'm jeff turner and this is recall. It's a series about history not the ancient past but history. That still hot to the touch. In this first season i explore a revolutionary political movement that brought a modern democracy to the brink. You can find recall how to start a revolution on the cbc. Listen app. Or wherever you get your. Some critics argue that world war two was a pivotal moment for hollywood a subtle but profound shift in how african americans were presented onscreen that black characters embodied more depth and sensitivity than earlier images which were shot through with a crude primitivism throughout at all the n. Double acp kept a watchful eye on. Hollywood this is the second of a three part series. Black myth sunscreen hollywood and a century of race produced by ideas contributor. Mary o'connell that's what you live for isn't it you do anything for money. Wouldn't even blackmail. Oh grow i've never denied you anything. Anything postwar hollywood provided a new set of disappointments for african americans. They scrambled for fewer and fewer roles almost disappearing from the screen. And we begin to see according to jill watts more films for and about white women like mildred. Pierce starring joan crawford from you when your chickens and your pies and your kitchens and everything that smells of greece. I'm really seeing you for the first time in my life and your cheap and horrible you think just because you made a little money you can get a new head doing some expensive clothes and ten yourself into a lady but you can't. Some critics wondered whether hollywood was deliberately focusing on stories about white women to avoid controversy over. African americans are portrayed. There were so few roles for blacks actors like hattie. Mcdaniel blamed walter white the blue-eyed biracial leader of the nwa c. p. Walter white criticized black actors for taking what he called subservient insulting roles. He'd certainly made a name for himself by waving around a letter of introduction from eleanor roosevelt. When he first met with hollywood studio executives but chill want says. The problem is that walter white continued to blame the very people he was fighting for. And that only increases the tension between walter white and the hollywood black performers and they come to really resent him for having dangling her interactions with him. She found him insufferable and she thought that it was what we call color ism that because he was light skinned he diminished her as dark skinned black woman and i think to a degree she was right. Probably about walter white. Although walter white counted amongst his friends people of various skin tones so and other black performers perceived him very similarly there are black leaders said. Tell white sit down and talk with the with the black performance community. Have a meeting with them. Perhaps they're able to offer you some guidance something that you might benefit from. But he's determined to not do that. Other black leaders will say. The problem is not so much the black performers. But it's quite hollywood. You have to get quite hollywood to change the period from nineteen forty six to nineteen fifty marked an unusual and brief moment in hollywood's history when it attempted to explore system and anti semitism through the passing genre with white characters trying to come to grips with the other. The nineteen forty-seven movie gentlemen's agreement. Stars gregory pack as a journalist who goes undercover as a jew bachchan. Double room that day through thirsty. Greek catholic green. How do you do mr green. I'll be added to your question. May i enquire that is Do you follow the hebrew religion yourself. There seems to be some mistake because we don't have a free room in the entire hotel in the end. Gregory peck's character pens a magazine article entitled. I was jewish for six weeks. Another movie exploring homophobia proved too controversial. So it was reconfigured as a film about antisemitism instead and hollywood promoted what it called negro tolerance movies white negro reframe does interlopers who pass enjoying white privilege while exposing racism. Sort of judith. Wiesner felt believes hollywood's passing movies like lost boundaries represented racial categories as natural and fixed. But they were also designed to elicit sympathy to a degree that was unprecedented in cinematic history. Lost boundaries that is in some ways the most interesting of all because it's based on a true story and it's the story of a black doctor and his family and again they're very light skinned and he is unable to get a job and ends up in a small town in new hampshire where they take him to be white so he's not actively pretending but he doesn't disabuse anyone of it and so it's the story of what happens when it's discovered that they are black. Negro wants to help his race. He should have the courage to stand up and say i'm a negro. Don't look at me. I never had to worry about passing. You know what they used to say down south if you want you all right if you roam you can hang around if you black stand back and pending a practice you should at least consider passing. Yeah why do these films become popular this period. The argument is a kind of a look. They're just like us and you didn't know it so the joke about gentlemen's agreement. The moral of the story is you should be nice to jews because they might turn out to be gentiles. The moral of these passing stories is for white viewers. You didn't even know it's it's only a problem for you when you found out they were black and so yes this black doctor. This black nurse this magazine writer. These people are really just like you. And if you didn't know they were black you would have them as part of your community Be as a candle of law. You have too many bills around this candle as green eight and fear and especially of ignorance. I'm wondering judith. In the final scene the black family who actually passes white have been found out and white folks in the town. They gathered here right with a minister has to say i understand in the original script at called for the carter family to be punished but because it was like. They pulled the wool over the eyes of the white community. Yes that the original ending wanted to emphasize that there was some kind of transgression that he may have. Been a a trained doctor and a good doctor and a good community member but that in not being honest about their so called real race the family had transgressed and that they should be humble and contrite rather than simply accepted so the wrong with them rather than with the white dominated society that place them in that position in the first place. Despite its attempt at racial enlightenment the movie lost boundaries suffered its own racial tensions. Some white actors who performed in black face worried they be viewed as mixed race and that their careers would suffer. After the film was released director. Alfred l worker was quoted as saying he didn't cast to black actors because and this is a direct quote. The majority of negro actors are up the tom minstrel show shuffling dancer type of performer. When anticommunist campaigns hit hollywood the major studios deemed these kinds of passing films subversive and too dangerous for public consumption. The mccarthy era horrified many public intellectuals including african american writer and critic james baldwin an actor presents his words. If i'd ever been able to hate white people the era of that dimwitted good natured. Flamboyant representative of the american people would have been pure heaven for not. Even the most vindictive hatred could have imagined the slimy depths to which the bulk of white americans allowed themselves to sink. Easily gracelessly flatulent and foul with patriotism. Got something made me won't shot hannah louis. James baldwin loved movies but he hated the racist formulas. hollywood produced that theme is laid bare in his collection of essays. The devil finds work where he explores the racial politics of american cinema when he faced numerous tropes over the years. James baldwin told white america. Listen to what. Ray charles is really telling you one of those tropes. If the angry black man doesn't get what he wants will he burn the place down another involved. The tyranny of exceptionalism in this nineteen sixty nine interview on the dick cavite show james baldwin. Couldn't help but grin widely when he heard a familiar question that in his words always maintained white innocence. What the negroes wearing optimistic Again i apologize and preface this by the phrase done negroes because it lumps together an awful lot of people but for want of a better phrase. You'll allow me. They say but it's getting so much better there. Negro mayors negroes in all of sports. They're negroes in politics. They're they're even courted the ultimate being television commercials now. I'm glad you're smiling. Is it at once getting much better instill hopeless to i mean there's a scene from the cavite you might remember the covid show. We're decanted said to him as the ball with. Do you think we have any reason to be optimistic about negroes into their negro mayors now james baldwin is looking at him leg you child basically to my mind and he says you know. I don't think there's any home for us as long as we keep using this very peculiar language one. The most devastating opening response to any question that reverend come cross rich blend is the program director of race and ethnicity at the new school new york baldwin once said that he wouldn't want to be a white american for all the tea in china or all the oil in texas. So you have to wonder. Even fleetingly did james baldwin feel sorry for white people maybe more simple way to put it but he thought that they were dodd ling when he called an emotional kindergarten for baldwin says that americans have made immaturity virtue so john wayne was a no obligation to grow out and so that failure to to achieve a certain kind of moral adulthood To deal with contradictions of american life is a failure and hollywood portray stop. An acute keeps doing that. It's the giving to the wages of whiteness nazari so much for them but He'd found them dangerous. You know what i mean. Mary people who keep dawdling in the title incidence in ingesting a certain kind of juvenille lia have grown dangerous are susceptible to mob mentality all the rose. James baldwin had a lot to say about hollywood movies including the nineteen fifty eight film. The defiant ones the type of movie he said. That pulled the black man into white america's nightmare in this scene. Tony curtis and sydney are convicts on the run as dogs and share of hunt them down there yoked together literally until they break the chains that bind them then sydney butch hops onto a fast moving freight train. Tony curtis is still running struggling to catch the drain. Kevin what she. Who of course is black extends a hand to pull up tony. Curtis who's white but he curtis falls but instead of embracing his new found freedom watch a jumps off the train to be with curtis in other words. He's sacrifices his personal freedom to try and save the white man but in the end both are captured. Baldwin noticed virtual apartheid of response to this moment white. Liberal movie goers applauded poitier while african americans in the cinema yelled to watch you get back on that train. It's a familiar trope. Rich glint says it goes way back. This idea that the african american will not save himself. If it means the white man might suffer. Whether it's a subject for instance of of adventures of huckleberry finn. Right jim turns and goes back in the same territory as he's yoked explicitly with run for a young boy. So americans have always been engaged in this kind of fantasy making. And so this kind of cross racial buddy. Narrative comes right out of american literature. Come eventually log very thin tom sawyer melville's moby dick but also the lots of the mohicans anymore cooper. Right okay then rich. How does that tie into cinema. Cinema is a language of i dream to the commitment baldwin is always maintained that americans have only two myth but also to a certain kind of fiction rain a certain kind of innocence because of our bloody history and a need for black forgiveness and so cinema becomes the language of our dreams. Be detrimental to your thank you your. I your audit bird. Go home or go to your church. That march well hollywood's long distance relationship with the civil rights era meant that it ignored the peace marches the riots the murderers and the assassinations that defined the period it viewed the racial crises in the rear view mirror sometimes over two decades after the fact cameron bailey is the artistic director and co head of the toronto international film festival. Hollywood typically has not been in the business of showing the harsh reality of our allies to us. So during the. I'd say the late sixties in particular when political leaders were being assassinated on a regular basis. John f. kennedy kennedy dot as they drove from our wrecker in color. This is the cbs. Evening news with walter. Cronkite named dr. Martin luther king the apostle of non-violence from the civil rights movement has martin luther king robert kennedy in fairly quick succession over five years time. Massive upheavals politically protests. Uprisings buildings being burned massive change. None of it was in the movies because the movies were trying to tell us that everything was going to be okay. And so if they were going to address race it was going to be in a more palatable manner why because it wouldn't sell probably because it wasn't cell because it was terrifying because it didn't have a resolution and hollywood movies need resolution. They have to wrap it up an an a nice bow at the end typically And so hollywood certainly didn't go near it now. Other filmmakers certainly did agnes varda came over from france to the. Us and made a film called black panthers. the panthers were at their most active And so all of that was happening. But hollywood was looking for other ways to address that conflict a what you see instead are metaphorical translations of that civil rights struggle the same thing with really sydney partiers career through the nineteen sixties especially Guess who's coming to dinner which was seen as a very liberal film at the time. But you think of the contortions. His character has to go through to be accepted by the white family And it really is. A kind of a abstracted symbolic representation of the struggle that was going on on the streets in terms of civil rights. Because that came out in the late sixties. Okay so when you say contortions what do you mean. This is a character who has to be at the very top of education levels Has to speak very well. This is john da da da prentice so pleased to meet you. I'm pleased to meet you. Straighten mrs drayton medically qualified. So i hope you would think presumptious. If i say you want to sit down before you down. He thinks you're going to faint. Because he's a negro well. I don't think i'm going to faint. But i'll sit down anyway. Sitting party has to look great. Has to be the most handsome person on screen. Perfect in every way to be accepted Within white society and so those kinds of stories and there were a number of them in sydney party really excelled playing these remarkable men because he was you know he was remarkable himself and he also understood. I think in the symbolic role that he played for america So that sense of de sexualizing. Black man was also a part of how race was represented in hollywood and that was a part of civil rights representation as well because it was seen as okay. If you're not threatening to us then you can be a part of society if we look back on guess. Who's coming to dinner as a product of its time as a white liberal fantasy disconnected from the reality of black lives. How do we make sense of the fact that the film was immensely successful and earned ten academy award nominations. I asked rich blend. What would baldwin's say about that. I mean he would say there. You go right that at that time in american life with the hoses and the dogs that this presentation of liberal america was fantasy enough that it would be rewarded in that way that it showed to the world who we know. It's a cold war. You might recall that. We weren't the backward. Jim crow plays know that we actually were so. It was also propaganda. Let's be very clear about this few years after the bay of pigs that it was suggesting that we were poll civil war and to. That's why it was so gobbled up as it were is why it was so profound ling attractive and it was the gloss sheen of right. The hollywood romance of it in the vehicle itself was stabbed ram packed with startup. You know so. How could it not win. Say to all time. And as because. I'm role in james baldwin's collection of film commentary and criticism. Called the devil finds work. He writes about american identity saying quote. The question of identity is a question involving the most profound panic. A terror as primary as the nightmare of the mortal terror of the private life is what keeps us all in grave danger and so it's all about the mortal fall because of how it seems to me. We haven't contended with that racial equation with all the ways in which people pretend things aren't happening around. Then i mean the absolute connected to one's own and interior feelings about your countrymen and women you know And your role in the. There's something that tony morrison following james baldwin and the parasitical nature of white freedom. And i think that's what he means that the parasitical nature of white freedom in so riches that way hollywood works so well it seems like it's banishing this collective fear of race from one collective inner life keeping it at bay it does and it gives you escape and it gives you very convenient needing taibbi never any disorderly interpretations of our history right. They tend to be roic racy. Pardon the pun presentations of national life and in that way it diminishes all of us You're listening to the second of a three part series called black myths. Onscreen only would and a century of race. The series is produced by. Mary o'connor thanks to keith. Heart of cbc radio archives enter gene del ripple for archival film research special. Thanks to actor. Dwayne richardson for his contribution. Lisa you sell is the web producer for ideas technical production. Danielle do vow senior producer. Nikola nikolic greg. Kelly is the executive producer of ideas. And i'm noah i add for more. Cbc podcasts go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.

hollywood walter white Walter white america cbc howdy mcdaniel Hollywood jeff turner Donald bogle julie dash katharine houghton Mary o'connell nick Jill want Mammy walter weitz Scipion walter white judith David o sells jill watt
374. Filmmaker Nara Garber

The Working Experience

1:21:00 hr | 9 months ago

374. Filmmaker Nara Garber

"Hello Ladies, and Gentlemen Boys and girls, and thank you for tuning into another episode of the working experience. This episode is brought to you by our friends at anchor. No. This is not an ad to buy an anchor for your yacht though you may need one after you start your podcast and start bawling. So what is anchor anchor is a one stop shop for recording, hosting, distributing your podcast. Best of all it's one hundred percent free in ridiculously easy to use, and now anchor can match you and great sponsors to get paid podcast. We use anchor host, the work experience, and we'd love it easy interface simple stupid distribution on all major platforms in the ability to work with sponsors and it's free except the sponsor part they take a cut for connecting you with a sponsor much like an agency, but totally worth it. So if you've always wanted to start a podcast and make some cash doing it, go to anchor dot f. m. slash start that's anchor dot FM SLASH START I can't wait to hear your podcast and be invited on your yacht. Greetings dear dear, listeners, and welcome to another episode of the working experience. A very warm open arm audio embrace an a squeeze. This episode is brought to you by my company one circle media. One circle media is a hybrid digital age in media content creator we create and design APPs websites, videos, social media content, and physical products. We are artists, directors, designers, producers, coders, editors, thinkers, members, and creators who embrace story and creativity from design web in APP Development Animation Docs features TV shows digital and social media content to physical products. For our clients we create content that builds networks in audiences across multiple platforms. CHECK OUT OUR WORK AT ONE CIRCLE DIGITAL DOT COM and one circle. Brand. Dot Com. If you work for a network studio brand startup or corporation and are looking for a partner to create media that will build engage, entertain reach out to me at John at one circle media dot com I'd love to hear from you. This episode is also brought to you by an APP that I created called still believe still believe transforms a picture in your home into video. Proof of your child's favorite magical characters with the APP parents can catch the magic of the tooth fairy leading money under children's pillow or Santa delivering presents on Christmas Eve in their home. You download the APP, take a picture in the week Crete the magic. Will utilize feature film visual effects, artists to transform your picture into video. Just tell your kids that you have a special. APP. That can detect and capture the tooth fairy. Then present them with the video proof in the morning the look on their faces is priceless. You're still believe video is created in minutes and you can then save it to your phone and share it on social media. The APP. Is available for the IPHONE and Android in it's free to download. Our aim is to bring joy in wondered to the hearts of children around the world. Check it out at still believe DOT Co.. Thanks everyone and I hope you enjoyed this episode of the working experience. Hey everybody on this episode of the Working Spirits Podcast Mattie K. interviews Nahra garber Nara is a filmmaker living in Brooklyn New York she is the owner and operator of Lucky Penny pictures and she has some great insights into the filmmaking world enjoy. Working. Experience. Ninety three north is almost at a standstill. He had so rough one out there. The score knicks no and sleep. Them it's no service on Ed and clear of the closing door is believed. To be minutes traffic. Should make make sure lane. Johnny that reporting. On that presentation here in Charlotte to. Let you know you have a team meeting at ten fifty? And worked makes the dream work moving in a different direction and after the meeting, we'll have a breakout session. Where am I talk microwave? was. Ask. Everybody welcome to the working experience podcast. This is Mattie K. and I am honored and grateful to have on the podcast today Nora Garber Lenora. Matty K. it's good to see you after all these years and I'm honored to be here. Yeah. just to give our listeners a little background I've known nor NARA since. Two thousand probably two, thousand, six, two, thousand, seven somewhere around there. We were just reminiscing about a job we worked on. Together which was. Very much an eye opener for makes a lot of professional work as a grip. I was areas a grip which meant I just Kinda move light stands around like a foot here for their. So. That's Kinda, but we haven't seen each other I don't know two, thousand, seven, hundred, ten years probably something like that. Let's call it ten years I think it was actually longer. Able to anchor that year, it was two thousand and five I believe because I met Chris Kara File, who is then your roommate your name year because I realized both of you were talking about having a party that seemed to be at the same intersection. Therefore, you must be roommates. Right. Yeah. Yeah So we'll we'll get into this but that that conversation Kinda led us to So, now is filmmaker she owns. Her own production company lucky penny productions I said that right the decrepit I keep any pictures lucky penny pictures We've interviewed I've interviewed actors on here and know people who have production companies up here and whatnot I worked as a grip for about five years. Many people think so making very glamorous. The red. Carpet. The PAPARAZZI and all that. Sometimes, not so much. I would say I these days I work pretty exclusively in documentary film and budgets are invariably tight and Lou of a red carpet. You find a lot of asphalt with sinkholes massive potholes per. It's yeah. The the payoff is not the pay in the line of work that I have shifted towards in the years since you and I last worked together the rewards are found in in the work itself. which if it sounds like I'm rationalizing there are nights that I come home from shoot smash say there is a light of the of this tunnel. This will be worthwhile. But it is. Often, literally filthy enterprise I come home dirty and bruised. But often feeling as though I've had the extraordinary privilege of witnessing and hearing things that I would never have had access to otherwise. You're. Absolutely everything you. Go ahead to. Say. It's very different when I started out did not start out in documentary film I worked on documentaries, but I think I was more interested in. Pursuing a path that would eventually lead to writing and directing. Fiction feature films and and that's It's it's obviously all falls under the rubric of filmmaking, but it's such a different world in the observational documentaries that I prefer to work on these days. Things literally happened in real time and you have the opportunity to capture them or you miss them because there's that one chance and you've been exposed to feature filmmaking with a big crew it's the the end of that. So it's been an interesting journey. Ya, there's certainly a a huge gap between like working on commercials working on documentaries working on television working on feature films. It just it they all have their own distinct flavor. Definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. I found working on TV law and order that was that was a rough twelve hours like you're usually moving a lot. You know. And then you'd work on a commercial where you would set up an hour in the morning and you'd sit there for eight hours and then you break it down. As. Yeah and it can be so different even within documentary I mean yesterday I had a conversation with a friend about a project that's still largely speculative, but it sounds as though it may happen and I'm not really at liberty to divulge any details, but we were trying to come up with a budget sort of a day rate for the executive producer of this were to move forward and our understanding was that this was kind of an Ansari Film attached to a book project that might or might not happen therefore, if we pitched a low budget, it would make it more appealing and it was sort of interesting laws that it didn't happen you. Know heartbroken and so especially because of the corona virus, I was saying I could shoot and you lighting and sound by myself if we had a production system to help load in just to minimize the presence of people on sat and she would come as producer and could assist in some capacity and then we found out the very first person that they hope to interview is of such sort of global stature that there is no way this would be acceptable. The expectation would be of having you know wardrobe makeup on sad and having a wardrobe a you know just having all the usual crew members expects this and that having to pared-down accrue might actually. Break our credibility into question. So we ended up completely flipping the budget at the eleventh hour. You can never discount people's Egos. Yea and sometimes expectations. You know it's like you you have to have to honor them if that's the client or vets talent even if they're not necessary to. Back. To technical things I remember the time we worked together I talk about this all the time it's a you can get such beautiful light out of a five dollar Chinese lantern that you can buy in Chinatown. And if you don't have to control the spill out my, you can get the same quality of life that you could get out of the like you know much expensive soft box but it's not necessarily acceptable to bring a Chinese lantern onto a certain type of set or they'll think like, oh, they don't own the right year, and then once you've proven yourself and you're working the highest end, you can do anything they think you're being innovative. That weird foreground I mean it's amazing. How like Things in the film world, have a price tag attached to them like where is this? What's the rubric for this? Like how did you arrive like a? You know the little scrimps psycho the lights. For our audience. These are rounds Metal Mesh is correct about that. Yeah. Very fights according to the diameter. Yeah. So this one was probably for one K.. So I don't know what's that like eight inches like that. Yet I I lost one. So I had to pay for it seventy five dollars. Like how did you come up with some seventy five dollars they could tell me anytime it could be a hundred could be two, hundred would be five hundred I don't know. No idea so. I I do a lot of my Mike Gang on on micro documentary projects and the little windscreens that you'd have to attach to lava leers very often. You know when we're done shooting for the day, I'll have some subject. Here's never been on the phone before who un Mike's themselves before I can say, no, no. No I'll do that and the windscreen goes missing and the cost of replacing windscreens. These teen tiny little things that go on the tip of your teeny tiny little lovelier microphone becomes a line item in the budget of every project by the. They don't serve any other purpose so. Premium. For the you can't use this maybe use scream for coaster or something of that nature. Credit if it was a big. Straight Austin maybe apart from that come down light now, really for very strangely shaped and sized window. So. Let me back up a little bit. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself how you got into film and all of that share sure I was in English major as an Undergrad and. I read a ton growing up I. Think I was probably very very well, read ten year old now I'm a very poorly read fifty year old I think I just my reading plateaued at certain point but I was always really drawn to narrative I. Love photography I I loved photography I loved music and. Filmed it always seemed really interesting to me I. I used to films and I would try to be the only person in a movie theater I. Forgot about this I'm thinking about this the first time since my teen years in high school, I would choose weird movies that were on their last legs. We're about to be pulled from the theaters and I would go to a Saturday matinee and I love being the only person in big Jackson's, and so I always really really loved movies but I always felt that there were so many bars to entering that industry that you had to be well-connected or you had to be wealthy and I still believe either one of those two is they're both very helpful entering. The film world by. I guess at some point I had been working education for a few years and I just kept thinking about film. and. I thought what's the harm in applying and I researched Columbia in particular, which was then really known as primarily Writing Graduate Program in film and At my incoming classic Columbia was the first time. We had a majority of people interested in directing rather than writing but the clincher for me was I went and saw this one movie, the double life of Veronese and I'm not even sure I would stand by its being an amazing film, any longer, but it was by the Polish director at Christmas because lofty and it was just so somehow atmospheric and evocative in ways that really integrated storytelling and music and of incredible image imagery all operating on this concept of the the protagonist having a doubles. There are these wonderful reflections and there were moments in the film that reminded me of things that I had tried to do with black and white photography and I thought you know Eureka. What's the worst thing that could happen I'll go into student debt again more. but let me give this a try and at that time I felt like entering film you really had two options you could start working as a production assistant on bigger shoots and work your way up or you could go to film school now equipment has. Become. Much more democratized through the advent of digital video and affordable DSL ours and you can really and their people are distributing things online. You can make movies without ever having gone to film school. You can make movies by teaching yourself how to make films. and not necessarily crewing up and you know working has had for years before you get to do anything that actually feels like your hands on. It is that a good for. I think it's a great thing. In many ways it's harder as a filming you're trying to sell homes are find. Documentaries because the whole explosion of documentary films means your and the fact that so many people who once would have been limited can now tell their own stories I think that's fantastic. But? It's a much more crowded market. So even though there are more places that what you put a film online there thousands of more filmmakers out there making films, possibly making films on the same subject you are, and so it's it's become much more competitive as well. So for numerous I think it's fantastic for filmmaker It makes one too much more carefully about what the end goal for film will be. I think the cream does rise to the top I'm there's a lot of. Youtube is filled with millions of videos you know most of them are kind of. You know one offs I mean they Kinda Corky idea. So I I I get what? You're saying crowds the market from a business standpoint. It's kind of like Oh. God them competing with everyone with an iphone. But You know. I guess it's people stick with it or are going to be the more successful I suppose. And then there are people who just break out you know which is which is fantastic I mean I've long felt that you know. If. You go to a wedding reception for example, people are you're sitting with strangers at the table afterwards and? Their attorneys or doctors there. It's hard as a layperson to necessarily understand what? The intricacies of their work perhaps Anyone can watch film I've gotten some of my best feedback when I've shown documentaries and progress from people who have nothing to do with her just ordinary smart people with a lot of common sense for there. They'll say that area dragged I don't I don't really understand why that's included in the film and my film friends are missing that because they're fixated on some technical aspect of the film or a preconceived notion of three act structure. So for that same reason, sometimes somebody will just make a film with no training and it's picked up by New York Times as an op doc or something I'm speaking very much documentary. Right. Now and that will launch them and I don't begrudge them that I. Think it's very interesting to see how many different paths there are finding an audience now. It is funny. Watching things with filmmakers. And then the question will do like it kind of gets lost like do you think it's funny or interesting while this laying over here? No one kit ninety, nine I just want to see a good character was he gonNa Movies Yeah Interesting American movie remember American movie. Awry. Guide, I, love American. Chris. So now and I have a mutual friend, Chris Kara file who's been on the podcast and he was removed for about six years and we watch that so many times he's friends with. Mark Bouchard on facebook he he texted me their last exchange. Me Too me too. He wants. He's selling t shirts for Kovin to. Cove to. You know who has Chris's old American movie DVD when he was getting rid of his DVD collection everything else away I'll take that. Scott the commentary track on. which is just it's amazing and those guys are just the most amazing character so too late they really really are and I would probably I'm terrible at top analysts. But if I were to have to construct a string of top ten documentaries that I think are worth watching for various reasons that that would definitely make the. Characters. But he sacrifices everything for filmmaking in terms of just pure love. extraordinary. You can speak to this was documentaries what I found very interesting in the commentary was the two filmmakers were not focusing on. Mark. Bouchard. They were focusing on like seven or eight filmmakers but then they just kind of zeroed in on him and Mike Shank is buddy who's not a filmmaker. And it was interesting to me and plus they're shooting on film I, mean trying to shoot a documentary on film. Oh my God. Are So expensive. But you know if you could speak to that a little bit like documentaries seems so hard. You GotTa let the story like take shape as you go. Yeah and I should clarify just in terms of providing some context for where I fit into sort of the bigger picture I feel like I have deliberately chosen a path. That's kind of this outside or bit of people keep asking me it's like Oh you must have worked with seven I know I know their name where I met them once at a networking event but by we haven't actually worked together so I I have chosen this sort of like. Outer path to things that has. Re wrote me back and ask your question again because I'm just going down a road here. That's that has no end. Quite here's. Tether me with your question one more time. With documentary. It's the structure how the story takes shape I think what I was going to get at is one of the things that frustrates me about how documentaries are funded is most people fund their projects by on through grants or or predisposition. Jaba assails arrangement with with Netflix or something like that oriole Pi for grants from foundations, and in both instances of you don't have a finished film to show you're trying to raise money received money. Part of the grant administration usually asked to spell out in shocking detail what your film will be. Much, the three act structure who are the characters and and so it's all sort of. In writing convincing fiction because Unless, you're doing a historical documentary where you're really focusing on archival materials that already exists that you're pretty familiar with if you're meeting people and following them and especially with observational verite documentaries, you have no idea where the film will lead. You have to have some preconceived sense of what you're going out to get or you know motivation to take out your. Camera in the first place but very often on your first day of shooting realize, oh, there's a whole world or a sidebar. Some some issues have to consider that I wasn't even aware before and You know I've been now working in film freelancing film. I left my last fulltime job twenty two years ago. I've been working documentaries exclusively for thirteen years. And I think I know that that you can't know what your film will be at the outset and I still keep having these very humbling experiences of boy most recently with the corona virus. Directing the project that I'm essentially working on right now but we've ground to a halt in Anguilla when New York shutdown and by phone started going crazy with New York Times alerts about everything that was happening back here, and meanwhile we're about to film the thirtieth anniversary of this reggae festival that my my subject had started. And The the festival which was not supposed to be an anchor part of the film but was a necessary part of telling the story of this musician just kind of fell apart and went completely crazy and then sort of regrouped in this sort of like combine away at the end but it's ended up being such a destructive. There's no way to ignore what happened in the film and so now it's a current virus documentary like corona virus shouldn't be front and center but. It's definitely something that will impact the telling of this story and the fact that we no longer have access. If we decide that, we want to finish this in a timely fashion we won't have access to some of the people in places that we had anticipated incorporating in the film. So sort of restructuring as we go but as you're saying the with American movie, they didn't know the those would be their protagonists. One of the earliest documentaries I saw before I was filmmaker. where I learned how things often get paired down to the core subject over the course of production was hoop dreams, which is really about to You know up incumbent coming Wannabe basketball stars they started with I. Think it was sixteen or eighteen players with the idea of it being a much. Much. Wider Net and then they realize the these are our stories here. And so it's it's always and I love that it's there's always a learning curve attached to every project. It doesn't matter how long you've been making calls and that's what I think. Keeps it perpetually interesting. You reference funding. So let's say Sarah James She wants to shoot a documentary. How does she go about getting funding like how does that process where our grants or however you do it? Oh boy there there's somebody I mean it depends about her subject is like they're. It's it's changing so much now that I feel like you could probably get a better and more accurate assessment of the entire funding landscape from somebody who sort of works in as a producer more I produce a lot of my own shorter projects but very often the funding already served in place for them. It's like a short documentary about a subject that is somehow commissioned by an institute or something but they're. Branded entertainment has now also branched out to kind of brandon documentaries where there's some, there's a brand that has some interest in furthering that. So there are all these private sources of funding now documentaries which didn't use to be the case in quite the same way there. flicks I never looked by things, but sometimes if you're making a documentary about a certain subject. I'm not having any really good examples coming to mind, but it was something I've worked on a lot of projects having to do with health care, and then you always have to consider the strings attached also like maybe this manufacturer you know something that applies to that helps people with the condition that you're making the film about would be interested in putting some funding. But what does that mean that they're investing funding does that tire hands if you're? Selling Book Public Public Broadcasting Because will they think it's an endorsement of that project so it's it's it's interesting. The pots of money have changed. In the last decade and I think the Nice thing about grants from foundations is that's that's cleaning you've been you get a grant from its in the stat one, each and none of that none of these questions and red flags will come up if you try to sell the film later to an entity that scrutinises such things and and a lot, there's a lot of private money. Now also, I was speaking with my myself, my regular sound recordist, the other day, and he said he's worked on too many projects where some wealthy person has the idea to make a film. But not the discipline to necessarily. So the funding is actually in place, but the discipline and infrastructure is. and. Also, I've worked on a couple. Of projects were he just never got one was like a two million dollar feature film look at ever got finished. Near. Like what the hell like what happened and we were just all over the place and So just to get back to the documentary, would you say that someone might film some of it on their own and say I kind of like this, and then maybe take that to a PBS Newshour Flex when like? You mentioned like writing a proposal which sounds what you're saying a little absurd because you're trying to map out a documentary burn. This is so necessary especially for foundation grants it's like very often the and it's frustrating because there's no there's no template in place. So instead of just serve writing your one grant proposal that you can pretty much recycled for every grant, it's something that you have to reconfigure for. Each grant but but yeah, I think. Definitely. What would? Having something to show having you a sizzle reel. I Hate I hate that. Having a trailer. That just a two minute tease although if you don't have much footage that's having something that is like seven minute look at you know so that they can see you. Get a sense of the flavor of what the film will be even stuff that you end up having to go back and reshoot because you're shooting yourself actually everything that I'm not if you haven't shot before I would not encourage shooting your own trailer. Like. It's good. If you you first impressions, you only have one chance to make a first impression. But if you can if you have the opportunity to convey something that you would not be able to convey in writing. About either Fedex of your film or the how fascinating or protagonist or Something that is just not going to come across words alone than I. Think it's very advisable to and some grants will require clip but it will only be serve you well. To have a shot at it in something substantial. So would it be a matter of somebody saying look I've got this great idea. They go online they try to find places that might be willing to give them money and they look at their parameters or what they want and. That kind of thing I mean it's it sounds like there's no one right answer or There's one there isn't and I went to. The idea, the International Documentary Association's Last Conference two years ago and and it was it was interesting. It's like it made me feel it was really exciting to be there because so much had changed. In recent years but one of the things it made me feel like an old dog because there were so many new up and coming filmmakers who had pursued completely different paths to Kinda get their foot in the door which I think is very, very exciting and at the same time Mike how much longer can stay in this game. Is there's still room for people like me and that included have an like an incredible burst of diversity among the filmmakers. One thing that used to bother me I'm sorry. I'm going off topic from the hottest one get a documentary started. But I see this is all being somewhat interrelated. One. One thing that was really exciting for me to see was how many black filmmakers there were, how many black females Lakers there were, how many Asian filmmakers were, how every group where there so often are documentaries made about these different demographics, but they're they've traditionally been by white filmmakers. Can tell their own stories and they have the technical resources to do. So they have the support to do so and that's another you know sometimes for as a source of funding, there will be funding. That is specifically for female filmmakers and their groups were women filmmakers or there'll be funding for first time black filmmakers and I think that's all rate has. The landscape is only started to really welcome a diversity. It felt. So makers everybody needs that additional leg up and having diverse filmmakers will only lead to better and more diverse storytelling So so it's like depending on who you are and what your subject is how one can pursue funding can be very different ally. You can. You can find out a lot just by searching things online, and if you can even tap into if you're a first time filmmaker, her getting advice from somebody who is not a first time, producer will be invaluable. And There's a lot to navigate especially I. Mean I've done short films and basically do a short film submitted to festivals. If he gets notice, somebody might give you my little more sense a little more straightforward I guess although I guess if you do a short documentary I've seen festivals for that as well. but adds. Kind of forgot where I was going with that point With I guess with documentary a did yet trying to get grants and funding like I guess for a short fictional film when really go get a grant or something like that I don't know Frank. Rather not but there the Sloan Foundation has been giving money for. Decades since in film school for films with some tie into science. And that applies to documentary film fiction films across the Board and so do people who've made short films that have been have gotten funding from them. So again, it's like these special interesting. It's almost like applying for college scholarships. Now, if you're if you're like a drummer in the band and you're from Alaska and your last name is this, you may be eligible for this college. Some things are targeted to specific projects. Specific subject matter and it's a lot I mean there's so much that goes into filmmaking that if you can delegate some of that to someone else who sort of knows the lay of the land, a little bit of will make your life immeasurably easier. Are you a fan I'm Floyd Style of documentary filmmaking. It's it's. I like it. There's so many filmmakers whose work I like, and yet I would never make a film in that style like I. I will sometimes get on a high horse and say that I hate reenactments but man on wire is one of my favorite films of all time than it would not be what it is. It didn't contain reenactments, right? And I like my own films are are so quiet observation if I could make a film while being completely invisible. I would I don't like? Narration less necessary. I'll never bring in an outside narrator anything I have directed If if there's I'll use interview footage as voiceover, but but a celebrity narrators anathema to how I make films. So, Aero Morris is much more like a fiction filmmaker I. Think you know the way arts out his documentaries And their other filmmakers like I, I love. Wisemen. Because I feel he's still remains so pure. But but I. It's funny. The last film of his that I saw actually add the day conference two years ago, and I remember just starting to watch you like about an hour and a half in where you almost feel like you feel like you're watching things in real time because teens tend to be really shot that way and not edited and I just remember starting to hear people shift in the audience and this event of documentary filmmakers. So it's like if ever there's an audience for Wiseman bill that would be it but but they demanded degree impatience bad like nobody else could make a film like that and get away with it. But you were. You were asking specifically about Morris I'm jumping. All MODO. No, the that's fine I like to. Use It as a springboard. I just remember I was watching this. Behind the scenes of the making of the Thin Blue Line Oh how agent find on Utah that was fascinating. He's a fascinating Guy Morris he's really character. Any said he was trying to get funding for that. He went to P. B. S. and they finally said, look We don't like any of your projects. We. Don't like this project and we don't like you. Like This like he doesn't care he is. Whatever and there's a scene is interviewing the guy on death row who actually committed the murder shot the police officer so far our listeners thin blue line one of the first documentaries to use reenactments. God a death penalty case overturned there were two police officers who were killed. Man wrongly convicted. So the guy who actually did a David he? He was interviewing him on death row. He was going to go back the next day. It was his last day. Camera broke. so He's like what the Hell Am. I GONNA do now most other people would just said, hey, look you know. He went he got a little cheap recorder remember those little micro cassette things. and. He recorded the interview on that and then he filmed the recorder. And he's I thought why I'm like, wow, that is brilliant. What brought this camera broke? Yeah. Yeah. That's it's it's so funny and that's I think the documentary films there's so many things like I can never work on I. Never Watch something that I worked on and this is true in fiction films to an extent. Also look you know all the craziness that happened outside of the frame that necessary to make something very simple actually appeared naturalistic. On camera but documentaries. So often if you turn the camera around, there's a hilarious comedy going onto just make something happen and allow things to come together and I can never watch documentary that I've worked on for the first time with an audience without having to cover my now. So that nobody will hear my laughter because Bill Things that Arkansas that audience believes we're intentional decisions that were complete bandaids. But. That is such. An interesting films me because I saw that for the first time when I can't remember my freshman or sophomore year? Of College I went to harbored as an Undergrad and Earl Morris had brought thin blue line to show to the law school but I had seen a fire that there is a free screening. At a movie theater in Harvard Square for the law school and I asked, can I go as an underground Make it was only opened a law students, but the human a afterwards Earl Morris was there everybody else was a law school student. I think I just happened to be walking through the law school when they put the fires and so a lot of the questions were were sort of based in less than from a filmmaking perspective and more from a legal perspective in here Iowa's not. Law Student or filmmaker at the time and Irish just So absorbed by something he had said about how he had gotten access to the files for everybody on death row and I think he was friends with the DA or something, and so there was sort of like a kind of like Oh. Let's drink some Bourbon insurer. I'll let you see even though you're probably not supposed to see this and somebody had asked was this an isolated case of wrongful conviction or did you Feel like you encountered other people on death row who probably didn't belong to be there and he said, Oh, this was one at so many there were some legal work and I as an idealistic. I don't I think I was eighteen eighteen year old set raise my hand and said, don't feel any other if this film exonerated this one person don't you feel an obligation go back and try to do something on behalf of everybody else's serving death sentences unjustly, and like I'm a filmmaker not. Not. A lawyer not that's not somebody should do that. But that's not my responsibility and that is just always stuck with me and I don't judge him for him because he is a filmmaker I inform us obviously that's something we need to tackle as the society, but it was just in terms of what didn't make it into the film it was very interesting to consider. Editing documentary must be I mean even with fiction films. You I I've heard these stories in the most professional sat's I mean I have a friend who's really moved up the ranks in the Peterberg films. He was background and he had a featured Pardons Spencer confidential and he said all kinds of money mark Wahlberg than they get in there they're like. nope. Let's move this around like things just change in. This is scripted shot listed. There's call sheets there's. Everything, changes all of a sudden. Like flipping around, you said, he saves Brandon turn to Brandon needs like you think he could do these lines. Yup. Okay. Get him get him into also and he's an FBI agent easily. Okay. Here we go. You know and he was ready to go when that's vice but. It's amazing. How it's so the documentary that seems the whole nature is like, what did you say like? Oh Yeah. and. It's funny when they're they're documentaries that sometimes. You would never know from watching the film sometimes you can actually see the moment where there's like the switch from the film of the filmmaker author making to whatever they what was that movie capturing the Friedman's did you see that? No Yeah. It's like the Friedman's started out being about the most successful. Party clown in New York. And then the darkest story of family unraveling. And I remember watching it and feeling like I could see the moment in the interview with the mom when when is like Oh God this is not the making. I went wash that in a theater. Thank God at the. ANJELICA. And I then thought. I think it came out on DVD I couldn't watch again. Like. That's that is one of the most powerful documentaries is so upsetting and Author, but it's right there at the front of me. Oh. My God I know yeah. That he was interviewing like the party the guys like wait a minute you can't dot on apparently the film it was like, what are you talking about? All the sudden it became. Yeah. What it was that is a very, very powerful. So powerful. Yeah. I I was. So I'm like, I don't need watch us by myself. I can't like this is just So upsetting Yeah, it's an amazing. You know when you said about what's outside the frame? There I worked on a lot of low budget features. You know hundred dollars a day whatever it so many times we'd be like. This isn't even the fun stuff here film, the production crew and what's going. Wherever something is under resource. It's always fun to see what's not on. The Sky this. We showed up at a location. I opened up the back the grip of the grip electric truck? Like. Why is it so bright in here he had driven the truck under a bridge that he wasn't quite supposed to and can opener. Oh. Of the truck. So I thought. Okay. This is terrible. We're GONNA. Have to unload the truck get a new track no no we just tried a tarp over the truck and used it for the next two weeks. It's like is anyone filming this did? This Much younger friend who just discovered and watched living in oblivion for the first time and talking to her about it. I haven't watched again I'm so afraid of wooden stand up but she loved it. She thought it was the funniest thing she ever saw and I I'm having to explain to my parents. This is not an exaggeration. This is how silly how ridiculous low budget indie film corruption. I was loved of the low budget indie maybe week to. someone would show up on set and start being like well, why is this was feeling? Who is this guy? The associate producer meaning they a friend of the director who was hanging around and now asking me a bunch of questions, Mike. I'm sorry who is this person like what? was going on here. Every time every time. Stop, character. Yeah. It likes steep. You show me when you said he he turns to somebody's like who are you? Here at some poor PA or so. Yeah, and also you can see like we would have bottled water and crafts if you ever want to see how it indie features going look at the craft service table. Bottled water stuff first week. By the time, you're getting to the gallon jugs of water and the same muffins that have been there for the last three to. First teacher I ever worked on I remember the first lunch we we got chicken pod tie or Vegetarian pod tie and that seemed great. and. We realized that the caterer had gotten steph. Hughes. Unpromising certain budget to work with, and then they like cut it in half at the last minute and he had figured out that pod tie was the most cost effective thing. He could make the quantities that we needed and every meal was chicken. Gee. What should I have today? I'm totally dating myself but this was like nineteen ninety-six I was still in film school in we're in we were shooting out of this warehouse in Green Point and at that point for three dollars, you could go get a very filling a substantial Polish lunch. With all Polish back then and so the number of people who actually eight, the catering. Just diminishes the first week. There were long lines and by the end, it's like the food become and everyone just scattered. It's amazing though because you know I, I was a teacher for years and I started working in felt the fact leaving got onset to me I was like wow, I, mean how many other professions does happen? Very few and that's when I was in film school and not keeping myself that seems like, yeah, it seemed like Oh yeah. You're paying me a little bit on the side of this. This was a good deal. You're then work on I. Remember I would have a number of days on law and Order Special Victims Unit and the food spreads. I mean, they'd come around with breakfast. We have lunch they come round with another meal of like Shrimp Scampi and guys would complain the food bubble like. Construction workers don't get this people who clean motel rooms they don't get lunch. In as far. That's like a a non fill other. I. Think they're having some good films about this. Are there some in production by by food salvage food rescue is like an issue beds dear to my heart and our mutual friend Chris Kara file has told me that there. There are a couple of services that will try to. Make sure that the uneaten food that is. Not Go to waste because there is such overfeeding on so many big budget sets. On, low budget documentary. Of Coffee and a Bagel down to the last cliff bar, we can share this. Cream cheese there. What is this? This is not Netflix guy you know come on. So. What it just kind of wrap up here has been I could go on and on for hours about this I. Love You know I just read a great book about the history of. Documentary filmmaking from. Before time and I'll take a picture of insanity. Yeah. It talks about a lot of the same issues and it makes me think of. What's 'cause? Some of the issues were like and I thought of it when you were talking about the more diversity of filmmakers at at the convention you went to and it was very interesting because nobody knew what to do with documentaries in the beginning it was sort of like is this exploitative? What role does the filmmaker have voiceover narration I mean there's so many schools of thought on that some. Yes some no. So I was wondering like. First of all like what a I mean I think anybody you know if you grow up in the suburbs, you grow up in the city you're bringing all of your life. You're twenty two years, thirty years whatever to whatever you do. You know that's the Lens you the world. And you you can. And hopefully, people do buy travel and things like that. They they under they get more lenses. I'll get off the Lens Metaphor and a second here. but how you talk about your documentary film styles being observational You know how much does a person's background? Do you think impact like two people shoot the same documentary that come from very different backgrounds? Are we going to get two different documentaries absolutely absolutely and I think that's true. know you have the same footage near of different editors are GonNa edit very different documentaries depending on their perspective when you're working. Sort of an unscripted nonfiction i. think that's very true I know that I. I do a lot of shooting for higher for other documentary filmmakers what they want me to focus on. Sometimes I've had wonderful relationships with with directors and when you're doing verite in observational shooting, the director can't sometimes it's better for the record, not even to be in the room with us. So that I might swing around and accidentally capture them, and so there has to be some trust there. But sometimes people wanNA fixate on something that I think is. More superficial than another story that we could follow and so I I've definitely had that tension on sets when I'm working for hire for somebody else as well but I think And it's it's one of those interesting things to think about as truly deeply happy as I am that there are now for example, digits filmmakers telling their own stories because they are going to get access and have a basic understanding that will not lead them to go down the wrong path which I think a lot of filmmakers filming and other cultures do sometimes do you have a false set of assumptions that you hold onto a little bit too long? Sometimes it's advantageous to have somebody from outside that culture because if you want an audience outside that culture, they'll have a little bit more detachment. You know it's it's interesting I think it's good to have diversity even within crews for that reason. So you can have a sounding board. We're at the end of the day when you finally are collapsed at the Motel or whatever you can talk things through and maybe say I would never have known that this needs further extricating because nobody outside of. Understand that no one who hasn't grown up in Detroit will understand that So so it's all it's It's really interesting. I would I try to do very hard with my projects is heat my preconceived notions and leave the behind at the beginning of the day and while simultaneously. Of the time and scheduling, and if maybe we have to be out of here by then but it's like if we suddenly leaving something too early, maybe I can call ahead and cancel something that we had scheduled for the afternoon or maybe we totally change the schedule for the following day to follow up on something that I had no idea we would stumble upon and I think humility is incredibly important in this type of. Film making which Antithetical Federal Tuesday Michael Moore Documentary, which is all about his personality and you know it's M-. Much more dogmatic style filmmaking and there is space within like when people talk about documentary filmmaking being Genre unto itself it's like it's absurd because there's so many different types of documentaries you've got errol Morris is very stylized film maker. You Got Verner Hertzog where his personality tends to trump whatever it is he's making a film. And then. People like, Michael. Moore, who have you know are are beating a drum very loudly and Did you ever see camera person? Oh. I recommend I mean some people might hate it. Some people might think it's too slow I saw the night after the two thousand, sixteen election with it was a free screening for P. members down in Dumbo, and it was raining that night and it was raining all of our hearts. Eve may be six people showed up and we all sat really far apart from one another because I think everybody knew there were just gonna sort of quietly weep during the film. But in some ways, it was the perfect antidote to that moment in that it's made by a documentary shooter. Camera woman who has done this for a really long time and I cannot believe I'm blanking on her last name right now. Kristen we'll get back to you can insert that the transcript. Oh, my goodness Google that on my phone one to you but she has been verite cinematographer for a long time and Iceland that would try to explain to people how much I love. My work in that arena and all very often shoot my own films as well. But the privilege of being a silent observer. In people's lives is unlike anything I've. experienced. Elsewhere in life and I think it's the opposite of the noise of today's social media where people retreat to their corner and loudly like Oh, that's what you said. Well, I have to have the final say you're not saying anything you're being completely quiet and if somebody has agreed to participate in a film. You somebody who's never been on film before once they cross that line and say, okay, I'm going to welcome you into my life if you will hang out long enough they almost forget you there that you're there or that you become a part of the family you see things that you would never see or be told or be privy to as dinner gas or even as I've heard so many people. Talk about things that they've not told family members and there's just a sort of trust that you form with that person or if they decided, this is the time to tell my story. There's kind of an awareness of the legacy there leaving by allowing this to be recorded and it is truly such a privilege and such an honor and such an intimate gesture that seeing her film which was strung together by outtakes from these films she had worked on over the years. So it's you know there's international footage it's all very, very intimate. Incredibly. came away feeling that she's truly a citizen of the world which the day after the two thousand sixteen election was like a night thing to. Do. and. I think that's the great reward of my very often low paying work is is getting to. Yeah just bear witness kind of two people think that's a that's a lot different than I'm always suspicious of agendas even fictional work The film that always springs to mind is Ed Norton the Nazi skinhead. I can't remember now I didn't actually see that I know what you're. I thought it was it was sort of be movie Ish, but I'm like I get a racism is bad like I you know we need to hit me over the head didn't little more subtlety because that's generally not how it's not swastikas tattooed on people. So I've always been kind of suspicious of agendas like Michael Moore. He comes with an obvious agenda. He's got a point prove that he's GonNa prove. My I. Am probably on the same. Why definitely same on the same political ended spectrums him but I'm always a little like. Okay. I don't know if that's the whereas what you're talking about. and your genre if you will. Need requires a lot more patients like of. Letting people come out and tell their story. You know as much as possible, and then where that falls apart a little bit is the edit I struggle with the ethics of editing which. You have to make your making a toilet choices or you're trying to let people tell their story to the best of their you know as much as possible but you're automatically shaping it in just by and then it's it's interesting. It's. Over, I. Guess It was almost ten years ago. We finished up a film on the impact of deployments and multiple deployments on military families, and there were so many young kids that we filmed for a little over year and then took another two years to finish the post production of the film and these kids would go back and look at the film. and. That's their memory of that period when their dad was deployed or when this is, it's they're going to remember what they've seen in the film because their families all had the DVD's and it's like I almost feel like I need. Rebut that with, but this also happened, and that has just because we put this before that in the edit doesn't mean it was as cause-effect as it seems. Right. Now, it's really interesting and the end. Of, just how editing changes the how profoundly it affects the perceptions of your was to remove the option of editing. I went to a lot of the black lives matter protests for for five weeks. I almost went out every single day and I wish I could have continued to do that. But just I, realized I am completely Leaving professional responsibilities by the wayside. Background for our listeners. That's why I thought of you to do. The podcast says he's out there right in the middle of this way. Let's talk about filmmaker. Thing because for me, it's like at first I was just shooting clips on my phone. I decided I was not gonNA go out with real camera because then I'm going as a filmmaker and less husband observer participant I mean just with with professional camera I be lenses the law have extra gear. I'd be making sure that I'm safe. You know because I don't want damage equipment that cost thousands of dollars and I thought I'm just GonNa go bear witness with my iphone and I shooting clips and uploading them at the end of the day or not, and then I realized I'm editing you know it's like I'm being pissed off by these younger millennial protesters who are giving cops the bird, and so I'm not shooting them but that's happening ally you know and maybe I'm you know this is not a terrific. What I think I'm doing is bringing some truthful representation of what's happening on the streets of New York City to people who can't see that. I shouldn't edit that out and. I really forced to change my style because I ran out of storage on my phone just didn't have the time to dump every. So I started live streaming and the second I started live streaming. I thought it's like my interior voices just went totally out of control because I couldn't edit I was committed shooting in real time whatever was happening and something that I totally didn't approve of happened. It's it's going on. And so so that it actually made me think quite a bit more about things. I've always thought about but just the role editing plays and how it conveys things and sometimes you would see the shift like there was one skirmish at Shortly. After the occupation was set up at City Hall, where things had the potential to get violent and I was about to come back to Brooklyn had to be back in Brooklyn by seven, and then I thought of something could happen. Maybe I actually need to capture this unfilled because everyone's so involved I'm not sure anyone else's filming and this is. Needed as evidence of what actually happened later on I considered I understand what you see in a wide shot that you don't see too close up and I can show how this unfolded and so I am shooting sloppily live in live streaming but with kind of something in mind as to this is the information you get from the shot which may be. Your average person who's never made a movie when thinking of and we're just trying to get the close up of the COP. And so I. Really saw the shift something happened, and hence the provocation where suddenly all the protesters in the occupied city hall encampment out onto the street, and then suddenly it was her blocking all the access to the Brooklyn Bridge and it was sounding like it was going to get physical and this group was young at that group, and then it moved back onto the plaza area and then the leaders of the black lives matter protesters and the sergeant charge. Of the police, there was a recognition there you're in control of them and you're in control them and they started making eye contact kind of talking to each other, and then you saw everything diffuse I thought it was ran that cropped up again, but it was just so interesting and if I had cut any of that, it wouldn't have made sense and it was interesting even for me to go back and watch and actually when I wasn't sort of like navigating. Safe Place. Can I be here just? Like, oh, that's what happened and so so it's just it's it's interesting once you have it something you're choosing how the story is seen. You go back. What you said you errol Morris's response was to you about you know like when you go back and try to overturn these other cases like that's not really my responsibility. Yeah I mean I guess a documentary filmmaker you. A responsibility in the editing room like do I cut this like this person's telling the story if I cut a here, the story sounds this way if I let them go. Or do I provide this person with a response to that I mean I think you saw the documentary dig Gypsy that have not seen. Seen. Yeah. Anton Newcomb. He's the lead person of Brian Jonestown massacre band great band, great documentary, but it had a real problem with the way his portray. Heroin addict what he's like I've been cleaned from heroin for years. He comes across a loom. I. Mean. I think he kind of is a genus. So I guess you run that risk of somebody being like, Hey, I, mean you put that in there but I said this later like what happened to that heard? People have very different relationships like ways of handling like some people will demand the right to final review some documentary subjects it's like, yeah, you can tell me and I'll sign this release but I want a 'cause there that says I can see the film before and things I don't. And I would not. I have never allowed that. I have told people I mean I feel like there is such a trust there I mean we had in that film about military families. We had woman who I love and in friends with to this day her marriage fell apart over the course of the film and we thought we were done filming with that and then we found this out and we went back and filmed with her and her her husband whom she had just separated from. And it was going to be very difficult for her. And she just had that we went to dinner and we just have a long long about how this how she actually felt about that and she reads a lettuce. No use that. Anyway, we wouldn't we just we will honor your story. youthfully. The best we can do and. She was okay with that but it's The film that is stalled that I'm working on right now is about sort of much lesser known kind of lunatic musician in Anguilla who is that's part of his personality he's just he stoned all the time. He does have a very, very much an outer body awareness of of who is also functioned within that and and the first shoot with him. He was very much trying to direct. The outset, your annual sales, and that was kind of great because he does try to craft his own story so much that's a part of who he is. So we captured that, but it's I for the first time in a long time. I was working with the DP and directing and not shooting initially and no you don't wait for him to say now shoot you've got to be shooting all of that. I can't believe I explained. had. That's part of it. That's part of the guys personality. He's climbing up and. You get all. Don Ready. I've often thought the most interesting documentary subjects are a people who don't want a documentary made about them like the guy in capturing the freemans or be guys like that who do, but you're capturing this whole other thing like they're not aware of like. How they come across that's the that to me is like very entertaining since. The, good thing in this case, as he has enough of a sense of humor about and south that it's like I don't feel like it will be a bit betrayal. All that felt like we will find it. Funny. He has many many many children and all that said, he was very controlling. I was like, Oh, I'm fully aware. He has been trying to control his documentary from day one. But did you receive the wonderful terrible life of Laney recent stall? But she comes up in that documentary book I was just talking about. As she deserves I mean, it's like atrocities in on her record. Absolutely. But she was a brilliant filmmaker also and in the documentary that I saw a Brazilian years ago. It's it's great because they're at the filmmakers have set up the shot of her at one point and she's like one hundred years old. She's in her late nineties at the time they're filming her and she just yelling chilling why would you put the camera there? This is the power. And and they accommodate request. But of course, they included that in the film because it's so telling. Her I mean, apparently, her filming of the Olympics is one of the most brilliant pieces ever was cameron's. Nobody had done before. So replicated in Olympic coverage to this day. Also failed efforts she attached apparently had such an unlimited budget from Hitler that she was attaching film cameras to like helium balloons and launching them off in case they happened to get. A good deal for the edge which they didn't. But with note, saying when found please return to bus in such productions. Grab. Setting up the Nuremberg festival shooting where she's up on cranes she thinks nobody had ever done any of this. Mess. So she was she was completely visionary and unfortunately morally I suspect. You will. You know it's interesting. It was like you know she's got this opportunity. She's not under the impression she was really a Nazi was sort of like. It's here but it's one of those things you know as I said, it's one of those reasons. I think that you know PBS will scrutinize you're making trail streams and all that and just in West strings are attached and what does it mean today if you're making a film and you get funding from Missouri flu so and I think as long as everybody's above board on it. Fine. Because then you can say like Oh you being by Philip Morris maybe this'll have a certain slant to it on smoking and. There's plenty of that that you see. Just talking about Thin Blue Line made me think it's like. I am not the person to speak is to speak about how one funds documentary there are people who could speak to that much more extensively in greater detail but But thinking there are also people who will go for funding or sometimes sometimes documentary originate with something like the innocence project. You know if there's somebody who if there's an organization that's very interested in the subject matter of your film, it doesn't have to be a corporation it can be an organization with a similar. Agenda. That will sometimes partner with filmmaker also so they everything is on the table these days. I mean I guess you'd love to find somebody who says here's five million dollars you film whatever you think is great and you edited it together an two hour documentary and be like. No gender. No strings attached. Nope you go. Maybe that happens. People do sugar daddies. Your Bryant that's probably. SHAPE. are still just weird. There are weird patrons out there you know. Yeah it's like I have a couple of friends who have had films product funded in irregular ways without ramifications. Of Seen the disaster artist. You have Netflix. Yes. Okay. Maybe tonight, God it is. I I. Really Liked James Franco I was not very familiar with day frank up at the both in it it's true story. Is a true story I wasn't even it wasn't even raining about an unrealistic i. read about it. I I've never seen a day. I mean we we all would wanNA meet this guy who James Franco plays like you just it's like Oh my God. I've met the person who jeff it's it is amazing and it's kind of what you're talking about but Yeah, it's funny like going back to the lady rice rice. Mispronouncing. himself. it comes up frequently with people like Roman Polanski Kevin spacey when he was on on trial I? Guess he was found not guilty but. It is interesting when it's like, jeeze I really don't find this person to be a good person or they have their baggage or whatever but. Damaging is. Complicates it. Further leany Riefenstahl's but she she made so much propaganda for Hitler. Triumphant. Is Gorgeous and all of those camera angles, all that innovative camerawork that she brought to it it is glorifying these athletes and so it's it's not much more complicated. The brilliance is brought to that message. But now we've gotten to the point where they tossed kindergarten cop out of a drive in festival and I'm like all right guys I. What other people call political correctness? I generally called decency just being a good person. and. You would say standing for the pledge of allegiance is also political correctness. Hypocrisy. However. I'm not sure kindergarten cop is to poison them. I mean is this where we've gotten to. and. I really wonder it gets truly truly. Yeah. We recently absurd y'all absolute. Thickly. Living in a satirical society. Like, of course, you shouldn't show it. It's a terrible movie like it's what are you crazy? Banning it. The one reasons I've been, there are hilarious things like I have I have four stepchildren. This is the one year they're all teenagers and I have accidentally I've learned not to pull out some John. Hughes movie and show it to them on a rainy day because I remember it is being good frivolous carefree funds. You're. Stilling screen candles a few minutes. As always preceded bike. D.. Tower. That bears reexamining. Different Lens but. Different Lens Yeah. Well. Spike, Lee was talking about a movie they stopped showing gone with the wind. I don't even know who's interested in watching that movie anymore and he was talking about a movie that's recently been banned that he shows. Oh No, it was. I'm. Not tramp the well it's the American version of that recommendation further nation. And he he shows that in his classes at nyu. Why? What do you hope? This is spike Lee. The man is a lot of credentials I would say, yeah. and. He's like, what do you hope to accomplish by banning this movie I? Mean you know and this? This is where I think context. It's like he is filmmaker going to do things differently having birth of a nation shown by Spike Lee. Who has done so much I mean if you if you're. If you've seen any of this films that's going to obviously provide a context for watching birth of a nation. That is very hard from having. A, white filmmaker it's like even even that comes into play in terms of like I think they are going gone with the wind now just they're framing it. Yeah and so in that case automatically provides a framing. That will guarantee a broader understanding as if you showing birth a nation at the vfw in Biloxi Mississippi that probably may have a different connotation than at y you film school with Spike Lee Yeah. But like I use it to show shots and things like that but also the propaganda elements to it some. I agree that banning making something of that verboten and not being allowed to show it also is just part of our history that's very important to learn about learn from. As you say and I remember Paul to African American politician in. Alabama one of the southern states where they're taking down the statues he soon put them in a museum. The Proper It's like we yeah it becomes make an educational tool and speaking of Spike Lee and films that do and do not hold up last summer I went to eight thirtieth anniversary screening of do the right thing and but for the fact that radio he was carrying a big boombox that you would not be likely to see in two thousand and twenty it holds up incredibly well. Yeah, I know it's amazing that Movies like that. Yeah all the same issues in option unfortunately. Yeah. It's it's. It's sad that holds up so well perhaps but right? Yeah. yet an interesting journey. Because a friend of mine worked for him. When he came back to Brooklyn because you know he had done twenty fifth hour, we don't a lot of big Hollywood movies and apparently he just didn't like it. So he came back and he was working on smaller budgets an smaller crew and You know my friend actually spent a of time overseas production office in Green Point and. Said Yeah I. Guess He just didn't like it. He just you know like I wanna make my own movies. And when you're getting thirty million dollars, you can't. Actually again, strings attached at every level enough. In terms of weird, Spike, Lee movie that very few people have seen. Did you ever see bamboozle? Know. Very interesting. Very weird and I would actually like to watch it again in this current moment because it. It hamels race in such an face way bite. It also the movie that he made when that first generation of Pro Sumer. Digital video cameras was just hitting the market and so. There seems better shop with ten different cameras. It's not pretty to look at it. It's not going to win any awards for cinematography but. It's interesting for a whole host of reasons And Yeah I think. came out. Of Radar So. Just wrap it up here. What advice would you have for aspiring filmmaker? Oh, boy inspiring filmmaker We're going back to what I said at the beginning. I think. Filmmaking has become so much more democratic in that the equipment is available at a fairly affordable price. If you can't own DSL are you can make your first film. I. One thing I would say is if you've never made a film before do something short before you make your dream project because you learn from doing and work out some of those kings to avoid you learn in the edit it doesn't matter if it's a fiction film or a documentary in the documentary are very often putting the together in the edit in a fiction film. You can think you've huge your script perfectly, but you're going to have variations in technical problems and acting performances and. you will learn so much from editing your first project that do something small that you have not broken the bank on before you tackle something bigger find people who to work with film even at the microbrews vote which I'm working at a collaborative medium, and if you try to do everything yourself in all likelihood, you can prove me wrong. But in all likelihood you will suffer for that eager to them and ask yourself why you're in it You. Know I run into people who say they want to build be a filmmaker because they WANNA be famous. That's not. has nothing to do with the creative process. and. About the films you like I think you can learn so much without going to film school from just watching movies you really like and asking yourself why is that? You like them you know what is it about the storytelling style? Is that experts cinematography the editing what is it that you like that you can emulate if it's appropriate for the film that you're trying to make if there's a really powerful scene, watch that seeing really break it down, watch it over and over and over again, and there's so much free education that you can give yourself that way there are books there are autobiographies biographies by Filmmakers Commentary Tracks and I'm I'm not. I'm not a huge proponent of telling people to break the bank and go into debt for years by going to school because I think everything that I learned that I valued from film school from working on sets while I was a student. And it wasn't really that much in the classroom. I saw some might not have otherwise but. It's one of the few and I teach high school. So I I sometimes will say like look, this is one of the few professions. That, you don't have to go to college for you. You show up on a sad if you have half a brain and you are willing to show up on time and work hard. You can very well make a very good living. I mean if you join the union and things like that. which the different animal than freelance documentary. There are so many different paths that you know it's it's good that I know you've spoken to other filmmakers and people who have production companies have a very small production company bride. Deliberately I hire independent contractors as needed but I have no time employees at though I'm speaking from a very different place from somebody who has Ted Person Full, Time staff or or a much larger staff The you know if you're working in any aspect of film, I would hope it's because it's what you love doing and I think you know try try on a bunch of hats and see which one fits and. It's funny though like working on like law and order. When you're working with the grips, they're not really there for the love of the creative process. Most of these guys. The IT'S Speaking too much from my looking in. The yes. If worn heads, the the union guys blocking out the Brooklyn Bridge Hours arrives. Yes. They are not in it for the love of the arch. I'm I'm. GonNa Guess that they're not the ones you're listening to this part of the podcast. You're probably not probably not into the intricacies of the documentary film world. Then you have people like Chris Carr files very much crossover huge ramp for a long time but is one of the few that I ever met that really aspired to be A. Cinematographer Amer Opera. So you do that is like. Him and maybe two other people I knew from the grip electric world. You know the rest of their to their in a good paycheck you know and. It's hard work to fourteen sixteen hours a day sometimes but. yeah. I bill it is like, Hey, look it's hard to outsource technology is obviously affected at digital and all that I don't know what happened to focus pullers and loaders and in that whole. Group of people but I don't know I see. D. I. t now yeah macron's yes it's you know it's interesting and how the Stop. Of, work. I have a union cinema tougher who lives right down the street from a and you know he now I think he's sort of resigned to to whatever is happening do the coronavirus end just like you know it's beyond my control work pick up again when it picks up again but I realized that by not being such a big machine I'm much more adaptable to they're always like my life is made up the side gigs. that. There's always people were like, could you do a virtual? You know I was directing by zoom could use this interview and I can, and so there's a way for me. I'm appreciative of the fact that even though I make A. I'm in a different income bracket from what I used to do commercial work but I actually I more resources to draw upon when the bond falls. Absolutely absolutely well, this was great. excellent podcast. I know our listeners will learn a lot. Thanks so much for doing this. Money's days. Absolutely. May get down to New York when things get a little you. I live outside of stop reporting now. So thank you to Nara and keep listening. Everybody will be back after real soon. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode of the Work Experience We'd like to thank our sponsors, one circle media, and the still believe APP the only APP that delivers video proof of the tooth fairy and Santa by simply taking picture. Download the APP at still believe dot co today in a major kids. And if you work for a studio networks startup or corporation and are looking for a partner to create media that will build engage in entertain your audience reach out to me at John at one circle media DOT COM. I would love to hear from you. And that's it the end, the sweet and Until our next audio encounter.

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'The Inventor': Elizabeth Holmes' Theranos Scam That Rocked Silicon Valley

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

48:04 min | 2 years ago

'The Inventor': Elizabeth Holmes' Theranos Scam That Rocked Silicon Valley

"This message comes from on points sponsor, indeed, if you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes, set up screener questions then zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. From WBZ WBU are Boston and NPR. I'm David Folkenflik. This is on point a drop of blood perhaps to a concept of Stanford University dorm room developed into a nine billion dollars Silicon Valley startup born of the promised revolutionized the US healthcare industry by relying on just a couple of drops of blood for tests. No, more hypodermic needles. No more skyrocketing costs the Ranas theranos, founder, Elizabeth homes gave this pitch. We've made it possible to run comprehensive laboratory tests from tiny sample, the young twenty something college dropout promise, the moon and found powerful men orbiting her including backers such as George Shultz and re Kissinger James Mattis, and Rupert Murdoch, and it all appears to have been a Mirage homes now faces federal criminal charges this hour on point the rise. And fall of the house of thoroughness. Join us. What did you make of Elizabeth homes? What questions do you have about? How this might Bila straight Silicon Valley culture. You can join us anytime at one point radio dot org or Twitter and Facebook and on point radio a bit later this hour, we'll hear from a whistleblower who was instrumental in helping to bring the company down. I'm just delighted with our guest this hour. We have with us from London, Alex Gibney. He's an Academy Award winning director his latest HBO documentary out Justice week, examines thoroughness and Elizabeth homes. It is called the inventor out for blood in Silicon Valley, Alex welcomed on point. Thanks, David going to be here. And joining me in studio here in New York City is John Kerry Roo. He's the Pulitzer prize winning investigative report at the Wall Street Journal, author of the bestselling book bad blood secrets and lies in a Silicon Valley startup. John welcome to on point. Thanks for having me. I don't think we really understand this story. If not for your reporting and a bit later in the hour, we'll talk about your process of reporting, I want you just to sketch for us briefly at the start of this tale. Who is Elizabeth homes. How does she present herself and start to cast a cast this bell red? So she drops out of Stanford in late two thousand three middle of her sophomore year. She has this vision for a medical device that's going to take tiny samples of blood from your finger, and and and run all the labs on it known to man. She is I'd allies is Steve Jobs goes on to, you know, hire people raise money and over the in suing ten years builds a company that come late two thousand fourteen is valued at nine billion dollars. She's kept half the equity, so she's worth almost five billion dollars. So the considered the greatest female quickest female, entrepreneurs Silicon Valley youngest, I think Forbes came up with this descriptors for her that stuck youngest self made female billionaire which was true because the company really was valued at nine billion dollars all from an insight that she had. Her dorm room at Stanford as she presented it. There's a scene that I wanna takes from Alex give news documentary, the inventor, he's interviewed or he and his team of interviewed, Phyllis gardener. She's a tenured professor of men medicine Stanford University and investor and she is recalling registering Elizabeth homes allure as young student coming to her for guidance and for support, but she also recalls resisting that allure pretty easily as the young students sought her patronage for that vision. She wanted to incorporate microphone vettix and nanotechnology into a patch. Could sample the blood I detect an infection and then at that point deliver antibiotics to it. Well, you can't do that. It's impossible physically antibiotics are not potent to cannot do that the reason you have a big IV bag when. Okay. So I said, I was that's fun. But I don't think that's gonna work that from Alex Gibney documentary, the inventor, John Kerry, what about Elizabeth homes allowed her not to hit that response to at every. Professor of medicine every backer of biomedical engineering that existed out in Silicon Valley. Why is it that she got so many yeses? And so few of these two key traits about Phyllis Gardner. One. Is she's woman. In two she's a trained MD with not only a lot of medical experience and a lot of medical teaching experience. But also a lot of industry experience Phyllis has been part of several companies. And so she knows the science, and she's also not a man the reason I'm bringing that aspect up is that if you if you follow the rest of the story every other backer and champion that Elizabeth assembled over the ensuing. Twelve years were men starting with Channing Robertson who was her chemical engineering professor and dean at the engine hearing school at Stanford and then moving onto Don Lucas, the famous venture capitalist who groom Larry Ellison. Larry Ellison himself later, some executives that she charmed at Walgreens that became the retail partner of theranos, and then all the way up to Rupert Murdoch. Who put in under and twenty five million dollars into the company and David boies, who's the company's outside counsel. And who I I had to do battle with and from from reading your stories and also firm watching the documentary of Alex's. It seemed as though. There was a certain class of folks. I mean, I remember reading Kenna lead piece in over a decade ago in which I was like there are a lot of heavy hitters here. They don't seem to be medical people. You know, a Henry Kissinger as we mentioned Jim Mattis, as we mentioned there was Bill Frist, the former Senate majority leader, but who had been surgeon in a healthcare executive, but you know, people brought together by folks like George Schultz. We have a clip here from Tyler Schultz among the first thoroughness employees to alert authorities to four two thousand fourteen the results of its highly promising blood testing device simply didn't hold up and shelled said that that board gave Lisbeth homes incredible latitude, including his grandfather that is the former secretary of state, George Shultz. Here's what Tyler Schultz had to say to Norah O'Donnell, sixty minutes. She's on the cover of magazines, inC, calls her the next Steve Jobs. Do you think the board of theranos believed? She could be also that kind of revolutionary leader. Yeah. Definitely the. Board was completely sold. Did your grandfather George Shultz think that to definitely Alex Gibney you've done documentaries investigating the collapse of Enron an epic corporate fraud, you looked into the world of Scientology, and the incredible culture of control and of seeming deception that you presented to the public. What distinguished this story. What made it so compelling for you to spend so much time on well to some extent is she was a character recognized. I mean, if you look at somebody like Jeff skilling or even in his own way, David Miscavige, the head of Scientology. I would say that they were both prisoners of belief and that is to say prisoners of belief. Tell me what you mean. Well, what I mean is that they believe in something so strongly that when the distance between what is real and what does a comparable grows enormously far from the dream. Or the belief in in what you can or should accomplish. Based on who you imagine yourself to be instead of tailoring, your dream, or or or or getting real you just pretend that your dream Israel. And so you engage in a kind of cognitive dissonance, and you allow yourself ultimately to engage in fraud because you pretend that your vision is working great when it's not working well at all. I want to take a call now from Detroit. Michigan Alex is calling Alex said this is a story about a couple of drops of blood and many billions of dollars people's health on the line. What do you make of it? But what I make of it is on first of all thanks for taking my call. I just wanna traffic this with that. I am a flip bottom. So my job is to collect a laboratory blood specimens from patients in the hospital and out of the hospital and responsible for preparing those specimens protesting. So what I'd like to say is that the idea that you could test even one of the hundreds if not thousands of tests that we perform if that you could run that chess on such a small it kind of radical and a little bit far fetched just from the science perspective of it. And I mean, just the idea that you could pick finger, and and from that get all the answers, there's a little bit far-fetched at this technology just isn't there? And it's only recently been where it is today. Secondly, like to say that giving patients full soap that such technology is just on the cost is a little bit irresponsible because I spend of the amount of time. I spend with each patient about half. That is just convincing them. A lot of times that it's worth it to have their blood drawn to go through such a small needle creek to draw their blood, and so if they're already so unwilling to have their blood drawn because they're in a volatile situation to present this on the on the nightly news, they're sitting in their beds. It sort of paints us in a bad light as as medical professionals, Alex. I really appreciate that it that informed and professional perspective that you offer there, and we'll be talking a little bit in a bit later in this hour about the the journalism that that reflected sort of the hope and promise of this Alice Gibney in your documentary. There's this incredible. I guess it's a computer graphic that use showing inside the magical Edison boxes. Right. That are that hold all this hope where sort of robotically they can take the little pipette of these tiny drugs and do the test. They need to do. And in reality. Your graphic shows kind of enemies alarmingly how quickly things break and get contaminated and how things go almost. Haywire. Like, a dystopia version of Charlie Chaplin film. Did she believe in your estimation? What she was pedaling publicly. You know, it's it's hard to know for for sure because I wasn't there. And I I was even though my producer managed to talk to her for about five hours. One time off the record. I was never able to interview her. But by all accounts, I think it's a weird thing. Then did she believe it's she knew that things were going wrong? So it's a fact that she knew that the machine wasn't working properly. The question is when she would pitch the device to investors or journalists did she convince herself in that moment that things were really working well in order to be able to lie more effectively that is the question. And I, and I I do believe that that's what she had to do in order to lie that effectively, but the fact is she knew the machine wasn't working. She had reason to know that what she was saying was not true. Yes, we are dissecting. We're analyze. Ising we are taking metaphor pipe pets to the blood test and company theranos, it's meteoric rise at subsequent collapse all under founder, Elizabeth homes. Even join our conversations what questions you have for guests. Those who have studied Elizabeth homes and thoroughness most closely. Did you buy into the theranos promise to you ever invest? Did you get tested with theranos? I'm David Folkenflik. And this is on point. This message comes from on points sponsor, indeed when it comes to hiring. You don't have time to waste you need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs. New users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR, podcast, terms, conditions, and quality standards apply. This season unin visibile, should we empathize with our enemies fem ordered guy is it okay to have machines control, our emotions, I should be kind of freaked out. But at the same time lake will thank God. I live in this day and age, no, easy answers. Just the right questions invisible. You back on March eighth? This is on point. I'm David Folkenflik. We're discussing the formerly high-flying blood testing company theranos, and it's Silicon Valley founder, Elizabeth homes. Now, brought low apparently by laws of biomedicine of gravity and of the US criminal code. You can join our conversation. We have the people who have studied the company and the creator best. What questions do you have follow us on Twitter and find us on Facebook at on point radio with me from London is Alex Gibney? He's an Academy Award winning director. His latest HBO documentary is all about Elizabeth homes and theranos it's called the inventor out for blood in Silicon Valley. And with me here in studio in New York is John Kerry Roo, he's Pulitzer prize winning investigative report, the Wall Street Journal and bestselling author of the book bad blood secrets and lies in Silicon Valley startup. I there was some pretty tremendous stuff captured in Guineas a documentary. Alex Gibney homes hired. The celebrated documentarian L Morris to direct a series of promotional videos for theranos in this particular clip of righty of patients are responding to the ease in supply of the company's blood testing device when draw on. That's it's a feeling Philip good. The same little thing. Can do exactly what the other vials, Dan. That's like life changing. That's from the documentary. The inventor by Alex Gibney, it's a couple of promotional videos directed by Earl Morris. I gotta say Alexey really used that stuff to good effect to get the feel of kind of the embrace the promise the the excitement the the hype that surrounded this company, you also had in your documentary interviews with journalists prominent journalists a kennel Etta, the New Yorkers sort of a leading media journalists for decades, a a gentleman who's experienced reporter for fortune magazine who wrote the cover story that essentially heralded her and cemented Elizabeth homes reputation. How had the press talked about the promise of theranos and talk a little bit about how much insight they actually had into how the company operated will. I think you know, Elizabeth homes represented a story. The lot of writers even grizzled experienced journalists like kennel and there's another important. Journalists named Roger par law. Who who I put Elizabeth on the cover fortune magazine, you know, there was a story. They wanted to believe in and that story was young female entrepreneur coming up with a a transformative invention for healthcare in Silicon Valley becomes a huge success. That was a great story. They wanted to believe in it. They reported it and recently carefully. But one of the valuable things about both Ken and Roger coming on board and agreeing to talk about their experiences now in retrospect, they realize how much and how badly Elizabeth had lied to them and Ken had put a shade of doubt in his his piece. It was a indeed a phrase that the John would later pick up on called comically vague referring to how she described the process of machine such option really good line. And and but but Roger I think in the film, particularly is haunted by the. Fact that he missed this and still to this day. I think you can feel his pain, even though it's quite understandable. When you realise that she lied to him. But, but that's why you know, seeing how personally took it testifies. I think to how badly he wanted to get it. Right. Even though both. He and Ken really did want to believe in the story that Elizabeth was weaving which was this tale of of of young female entrepreneur makes cut good. And does something magnificent for society. And I've got to say I was struck by the way excuse me in which you incorporated, her affinity, not only Steve Jobs in how he dressed and presented things publicly. But also, the inventor Thomas Edison after him she named her boxes. But also who seemed to have that kind of you know, fake it till you make it on some of these things that we now take for granted as some of his signature inventions. You know, there there really was this drumbeat of incredibly positive reporting. Until it seemed to me until I read in Walsh. Street Journal back in October of twenty fifteen John Kerry ruse first investigative piece about their theranos, John you described the company's proprietary testing devices largely performing inaccurately making clear, it was not reliable being clear that not only was it not going to displace things. It was not even able to replicate the reliability of these other larger more expensive tests later that same day October fifteen twenty fifteen Elizabeth Holmes joined CNBC's Jim Cramer to make her case to rebut the claims made in that Wall Street Journal piece. This is what happens when you work to change things. And I they think you're crazy than they fight you. And then all the sudden you change the world, and I have to say, I I personally would shocked to see that the journal would publish something like this when we had sent them over a thousand pages of documentation demonstrating that the statements in their peace were false. Now, the first time I actually saw that clip was in Alex wny's documentary, the inventor, that's just out. It's worth also noting that Elizabeth homes made a plea to one of her key investors Australian-born the billionaire named Rupert Murdoch to stop the publication of that Wall Street Journal piece. It should be noted, of course, that Murdoch. Essentially, effectively controls the Wall Street Journal he and his family. I've written a lot of critical things as a media reporter of Rupert Murdoch and that day, but you know, mega kudos for a guy. Not intervening to try to do damage control for what was it one hundred twenty five million dollar investment. That's right. And that's an incredible. Backing from the top boss. Yeah. I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know he had invested. He invested basically at exactly the same time that I started digging into the company, and and then we published in October nine months later in October two thousand fifteen and then I didn't learn of Murdoch's investment in the company until October or November of two thousand sixteen a year after my piece was published in at that point. You know, my jaw dropped when I heard it from a source, and I thought at first it was disbelief, and then I thought well, this is a great twist for the book credible. So I got a report it out. And I spent some time reporting it out and learn that they had met face to face six times including four. Times before my first investigative story was published and the last of those four times was two weeks before it was published in his corner office in a News Corp building in midtown and cheek kept bringing up the story hoping he would kill it. And and he declined to kill it in a few minutes. We're going to talk with a key source for you and a key whistleblower from inside their nose, Erica Chung. But one of the things I think it's important set the terms with is your reporting was not only remarkable. But it was particularly remarkable for the culture of secrecy, the culture of control that as you depicted as Alex Gibney depicts it a defined how thoroughness operated, right? It was a not a healthy culture. It was a culture and part that was inspired by the secrecy of apple Elizabeth homes. Adored, you know, Steve Jobs idolized him, and I'd allies everything apple and she knew about, you know, Apple's fame secrecy around its product launches and and so. She sort of emulated that. But I think it also stemmed from her personality. She's very secretive. I'm told she's inherited that trait from her mother from the early days of the company, she compartmentalize things she wouldn't let you know. The engineers communicate that much with the chemists she fired people often, and then when her boyfriend's sunny Bhawani joined in late two thousand nine he became the enforcer. And really that toxic culture went into overdrive. I wanna now reach out by Skype from Hong Kong, I want to bring into the conversation. Erika Chong Erica is a former thoroughness employees at whistle. A source for the Wall Street Journal, but she helped to expose the company's a numerous deceptions numerous failings, the vast canyons of disparities between what was actually happening in the labs, and what was being said publicly Erica Chung. Welcome to on point. Hi, david. Thanks for having me. My goodness. When you entered a you you worked there for a under a year. But when you enter you believed in what did you believe in? Why did you join? I believed in the vision. I kinda was sold on the possibility that technology had reached this point that we could, you know, run blood diagnostics on smaller samples at least for some diagnostic tests. And I think I was really sold on the possibility that we could make these tests cheap enough that people didn't even need insurance tab access to medical diagnostics. They can pay for it out of pocket. And I think for me just exiting out of my undergrad. That was a story. I was I was really compelled to to be a part of and what was your job there. So I started off in research development, and I was responsible for than integrating the edisons into the Clinical Lab. Where all the patient processing would happen. The magical boxes. Yes. Yes. A magical boxes, and what were you seeing behind the scenes yourself? And what were you hearing from colleagues about how progress was actually being made on making those tests plausible and making them reliable. There was quite a bit of despair behind closed doors in the laboratory and at first being so young when I entered into the research and development lab I'd anticipated. Okay. This is being in the sciences, you expect that there's going to be high failure rates. That's why you're here. You're. Erica still within can start testing tested on patients. No, you're good weekend. Where you can. Okay. Yeah. Essentially, there was a lot of despair amongst everyone in the laboratory, they, you know, initially people in research and development that was kind of our job. Our job was to make the tests work, and then put into the clinical setting, and what was the response by Elizabeth homes and her top executives to the fact that the information being one backup the chain was hey, this isn't playing out guys. I it. It was a bit strange. No one. Really? So good example is during thanksgiving. I had run a patient and the patient sample kept failing it kept showing outlier data outlier data. I'd reported it up to all the high level management that things were going wrong. And essentially they brought in another lab associate who was. Pretty underqualified entry level position like me, and she had just deleted data points and said, oh, those are outlier data points for a patient sample. Now, it's good to send out and when I had reported to the higher level management. It just kind of looked at it like, yeah, it's wrong. But we gotta get the patient samples out. There was always excuses being made for why it just like carelessness did matter. And then what convinced you to reach out to to federal regulators. What convinced you to speak. Ultimately, john. I think initially when I was in the company I was hoping that somewhere in that building. Something was going, right. That something was going, right? And that may be I had just been seeing things the wrong way. But at the end of the day, we were still not telling patients when we did mess up on their samples studt. There was an issue that there were problems. And when John came to me in basically said, hey, I've been hearing these rumors about theranos. So it was almost a relief for me that other people had been seeing what I was seeing in starting to come forward and say, this is not okay. And then that also gave me the opportunity to talk to a lawyer and figure out that it was very easy to report this information to regulators in because I had an inside perspective. I would be able to point them in the right direction. With specific details were their nose could no longer just kind of lie in refuse to show them where the Edison. Devices were or where the labs were that patient processing was actually going on. I mean, it seemed as though it was the medical version of bayton switch right where people who came and demanded to be allowed to see people from Walgreens or people like I guess working with vice president or others who came into it had their had their samples whisked away. And then done on very conventional machines bought by standard manufacturers that were in the back room some of their bought by theranos itself. Yeah. It was exactly that like what went into processing one blood sample when they would do those demos with investors all the investors that got my blood drawn. You stuck it in the machine and it would run. But actually, what was happening is alive. Associate would take that blood sample run it into a back a laboratory where there about sixteen people waiting all to split up the sample and run it on all these different machines. And it was just it was crazy. How? It the whole thing was staged in our entire team was put on hold anytime in investor came through or any sort of prolific figure. It sounds like a scene from a medical version of the stinger the Griffey's I'd like to take a call now from Madison Wisconsin Elena, you're on the air. Join us your thoughts on all this. Yes. Thank you for taking my call, especially with the talk around regulations, I'm fascinated by how this kept getting past the FDA. But I'm more interested in comments about what is everyone think how this will impact future? Regulated regulations for new innovations in new inventors because I feel like she has essentially back potentially setback that industry by years, especially if you're a female in a stem field trying to get forward that there's going to be I would hope extra scrutiny. But is there, you know, there's a considerable process to bring these sorts of things to market and it can take decades. How how do your guests have any response on that about how they think this will impact in the future? And I'll I'll take the response off air. Thank you, John Kerry REU. Do you have any thoughts about what the legacy is of this for? The kinds of agencies that approve regulate this stuff, right? From a regulatory perspective. I'm not sure that that the theranos tobacco is actually going to change much. If anything I'm a little bit pessimistic because one of the loopholes that Elizabeth homes exploited is lab laboratory developed tests loophole, and it's basically it has to do with tests that are devised by laboratories with their own methods. And it's it sits in this regulatory no-man's-land between the two main health regulators, the FDA in one side that regulates the diagnostic equipment that labs by and use. And on the other side CMS the Medicare agency which regulates labs between between those two agencies. There's this loophole laboratory developed tests, and no one is really regulating it. The FDA was serious about beginning to regulate it at the end of the Obama era. And unfortunately, when Trump got elected the there was. New head of the FDA and the policy stance of the FDA changed completely. So that loophole in particular doesn't look like it's going to be closed. I think though, where one can be more hopeful is is on the enforcement side. The Justice department has now charged the two perpetrators of this fraud. Elizabeth homes and sunny Bomani with criminal fraud. And there's going to be a trial. If convicted they could go to prison for many years, and I think that is going to be a deterrent for Silicon Valley. Entrepreneurs in the future Sonny ball wanting being one for top executives for few years and answering as well. As her boyfriend another point not disclose to investors were discussing the former blood testing company theranos and its founder, Elizabeth homes once a cover figure on business magazines now in the dock trying to be charges that could force her to face up to twenty years in prison. Alex, Gibney, John Kerry ru Erica junk stick around. We want you to stick around Joyner conversations. What are your questions about? Kiro report. Or give new documentary? What you find most compelling surprising about Elizabeth homes and the Rondos I'm David Folkenflik in. This is on point. How do we perceive our experience as humans who are we today? And who could we be tomorrow? I'm guy Roz on the radio. Our we go on a journey through the big ideas that animate our world each week. It's the Ted radio hour from NPR. This is on point. I'm NPR media. Correspondent David Folkenflik. We're discussing the now defunct Silicon Valley blood testing company theranos and the public captivation with it's now disgraced founder, Elizabeth homes. Follow us on Twitter and the Facebook ad on point radio. Joining me from London, Alex Gibney. He's an Academy Award winning director. His latest HBO documentary is the inventor out for blood in Silicon Valley from Hong Kong, by Skype. We have the technology investment analyst Erica Chung. She's an insider thoroughness whistleblower. She helped federal authorities unravelled the company's lies and served as a source for my third guest. Who's with me here in studio? That's John Kerry Roo. He's a Pulitzer prize winning investigative report at the Wall Street. Journal author of the bestselling book bad blood secrets and lies in the Silicon Valley startup. I want to go take a caller to from from our listeners. We've had a bunch from new Milford. Connecticut. Bill. Sounds like something this was on that that this was something that was on your radar. Oh, very much. So when all this was going on when John story broken the Wall Street Journal, I was a a. Heart patient going through some pretty serious heart surgeries. And so blood testing was a big part of my life. And I couldn't believe that the fake until you make it eat. Those of of Silicon Valley was being applied to literally life-saving or potentially lifesaving blood testing related to that. At the time. I was in public relations in technology for twenty five years, and I never did any work for or knows. But that there are no story was one of the reasons why I decided to get out of the business because I was so fed up with sort of the the moral take until you make it screw culture of of Silicon Valley tech in general, and my my final point was that. I couldn't believe that late in the game. Even as theranos was going down in flames people, like, Tim, Draper. And some of the original investors were out there vehemently public publicly defending the company. Just points again to how how lost technology, and and so it can value industry is those are my points. Thank you so much for that Bill. Tim Draper, being a lead investor in theranos house, giving you your team interviewed drapery was on there and still kind of kind of buoyant on the company it sounded like in terms of its its promise. Anyway, we are getting a number of of folks weighing in saying we've one comment on a website. Greg blonder says is sometimes during bubbles like the telecom. When the Greg says, he's VC means a venture capitalist. Sometimes during bubbles like the telecom frenzy in the nineties people invest on the greater fool theory. Get an early boost the company ride the wave and sell before anyone notices that it's flawed. Not my philosophy more common than people realize during the thoroughness frenzy. Investors greed, someday, a single finger prick would lead to full health profile inevitable, and they bet theranos what he purchased early by desperate or scared acquirer. Eyes wide open. We have also a call coming in from Palo Alto, California rum. Tell me your thoughts on all this. I just I I wanted to see Jones book that blood. Anyone should everyone should read it. Every sentence is amazing. The HBO documentary was great. I wanna emphasize that. The deception was horri- so much about the the company was unacceptable. One thing that people should still be optimistic about is the possibility of running multiple diagnostics on a small drop of blood. And the reason is because there are already products out there that we've hospital on a regular basis that do this the Istat the PLO express. And the thing is just that the cleaned that was made was in the back to direction it was just five hundred or whatever tests. It's not that. It's not going to be possible. One day even the Siemens machines used just Mike Rowe heaters of blood. So people should be encouraged that they're all real there's real science out there that he's a real products that are FDA approved that are doing things in the sector direction and the. Last point is who cares if we'd use like, Mike relievers of blood. It's not essential to like, it would be great. But it's not like it's not transformative per se that they're using micro leaders that people using my blood, it's fine to us a a small vial. We have six, you know, eaters of blood circulating. So it's really for people for the bulk of people doing preventative medicine, we don't need micro liters of blood. It's actually much more painful to use a Lancet than to have excellence lobotomies to draw your blood. So anyway, these are technical points. The book was amazing. The deception is obviously unacceptable. Thanks run for for all of the above, including the the blurb that will no doubt be on the next edition of John Kerry ruse book, Erica Chung. There's something that strikes me. It's like watching, you know, minority report that Tom Cruise movie with all these things that seem to intimidate things that came true five ten twelve years later, you know, in terms of technology. Yes. Maybe we don't have personal flying helicopters, but they kind of anticipated the in which drones would be much more commonplace in the. The how the tablet would have personalized news the cookies that would tell the gap. Exactly what size jeans would bought last. You know? Was there the sense of? Hey, if you can imagine it it is doable. I mean, I think this was beyond just imagining. It's doable. There's definitely like the previous listener was saying there is technology that already exists that is able to run a multitude of tests just using a finger stick just the whole spectrum of panels and blood tests cannot only be done on a small point of blood. But I think there is the possibility where, you know, having consumer base being able to be in your own home and do an run some of these blood diagnostics like you would with diabetes test is very feasible and very possible. And we probably will start seeing a shift where these types of of blood diagnostics are going to start happening. In April twenty sixteen. Elizabeth Holmes was interviewed by NBC's Maria Shriver after federal regulators had cues the Rondos theranos excuse me of failing to hire and train qualified staff to oversee blood tests among many other infractions, I feel devastated that we did not catch and fix these issues faster. What do you hold yourself spots before? I'm the founder and CEO of this company. Anything that happens in this company is my responsibility at the end of the day. We stop testing and have taken the approach of saying let's rebuild this entire laboratory from scratch. So that we can ensure never happens again. Now viewers of Alex give news documentary released this week on HBO, the inventor would have seen that seen. What's remarkable to me is not so much her saying what a seemingly responsible corporate chief would say in some ways. It's that voice that we now have intimations may. May not actually have been her real voice, Alex Gibney. And indeed, you also included it the fact that so many things that she said turned out not to be the case, you included, if I recall correctly, kind of a collage of times that she talked about her inspiration, which was the quick quick. I guess metastasis ation of skin cancer in her uncle to the point where he died, not very long later, you know, unable to see his child grow up having died of cancer, and she talked about it again. And again, do you have any reason to doubt that origin story? Did that turn out to be true? Well, John might be a better person to talk about that. But I do know that she wasn't that close to him. And I think the more salient point was okay. He died of cancer. Would would you know testing with the Edison divisive saved him? Who knows you know? I it's just, but it was a very compelling and emotional moment because you know, somebody close to her died, and I think what it really testifies to is her ability as a storyteller. Connect with people's emotions. I mean in a way, that's what our hero. Steve Jobs was best at two was telling a compelling emotional story about a product. And that was you know, at the heart of her success in terms of fooling people as a documentarian. How do you approach? I'll give me a dealing with somebody who's assertions are probably a clean toss likely to be true or less. Well, weirdly, I've had a lot of practice in that. I mean, I I've interviewed a lot of people who've lied to me straight to my face. And and so overtime you get used to it. And you, and you know, that it it could be happening. And I think that and luckily in in this case, you know, between Erica whistle blowing and John writing his fantastic book. You know, I knew going in that that I was dealing with somebody who you know, was was high on them and acidy scale. But I do think that, you know, one of the interesting things for me is is how and why people lie, and and how they think they can get away with it. And how sometimes they think they're entitled to do it because they have this grand mission, which which allows them both to lie more effectively. But also to excuse it to themselves that I don't think is the good news. You know, it should be a lesson for all of us in terms of spotting. Frauds in the future. When you see somebody who has this kind of messianic and very emotionally compelling vision. I it's not always surprising to find that. They're not telling the truth, and Alex you include a quote from the behavioral economist, the great, Dan Arielle talking about saying, basically that people should have empathy towards Lisbeth homes. And to summarize what he says, he says it, you know, you can ask how she does this. But it would miss the point. If you don't understand her journey in sense. It's really a cautionary tale about all of us. What is that cautionary tale? Well, the cautionary tale is you have to understand that we all have to understand that in some ways. We're hard wired to be irrational one at one of Dan, I realize books predictably irrational. And and that when you're you're irrational in your ruled by your emotions, you you come up with excuses for why you feel that the way you do. And if you allow that. Cognitive dissonance to grow. Then you're really in trouble. Because then suddenly, you're defending something that's not defensible. And that's really the the lesson for all of us, and it can happen in a in a domestic argument where you know, you really on the on the wrong side of the argument at somehow, you feel emotionally compelled to push it for all sorts of reasons. I think that's why you know, if you see Elizabeth only as a purely bad apple like, some uniquely fraudulent person. Then I think you missed the broader context of the story both in terms of its application to Silicon Valley. How you spot these kinds of frauds? How we end up believing these frauds? How really good journalists end up being taken in. She's extreme in one way. But she's also connected to the rest of us. John, and Eric I want to talk about what it was like to be on the other sides of the divide from one another in this. What was it like to finally talk to a Tyler shell? What was it like to talk to Eric Chung and to get them to earn your trust? And when they took you by the hand and brought you inside what was that? Like, it was important for me journalistically to make contact with them because I had one source and that source was anonymous because I agreed to grant him confidentiality. He was and remains anonymous he goes by a pseudonym in the book, and he was very good source since he had been the lab director in a position to know what he was talking about. But nonetheless, I wasn't going to be able to go to press with a story based on just one anonymous source, and so when I made contact with Erica, and Tyler in particular, and they corroborated virtually everything that the this lab director told me for me that was that was really the jackpot, and you know, both Tyler erica's as Erica suggested earlier were young and green than just out of college. But they also appear to me. On you know, from the first contact to have a very good heads on their shoulders and have strong moral compasses and to be these these smart educated young. You know, people and former employees of the company who who were doing were speaking out for the right reasons. And and and so I found them credible. Even though they were young and theranos was inevitably going to, you know, call them out as junior employees. They came off as incredibly credible to me sources, and Eric what was it like to take that leap of faith to trust in John? And also, what was it like then to see what he was able to report imprint yeah. And it was a bit of a leap of faith. And I think in retrospect, you know, Tyler and I were a bit naive on even you know, what signing an NDA was in the consequence on regal and nondisclosure agreement and the legal action that would sort of follow through. But both of us initially were off off were completely anonymous as well. And we were frankly, both luckily to work with John and throughout this whole process. He did a lot to ensure that we remained anonymous that he kept us his confidential sources, and honestly even when doing the documentary a lot of us had a lot of trouble say working with HBO or any other reporters because we had built up so much trust in John in so much just had so much loyalty to him because he had done such a good job reporting. The story the initial release of the Wall Street Journal article. Honestly, did not seem to shake up things. Too much. A lot of people still had a lot of confidence and Elizabeth homes. They thought this was an attack because she was a woman or that. This was like the classic media trying to bring someone down who was on top. But then the fact that he did such a good job in his investigative reporting to release report after report after report, exposing all the different scandals and in lies that she had woven in the story. It, you know, for us as as sources, we we really got lucky, and this was the best possible outcome that this could have had the story. There are many people who have come forward against fraud cases in has not ended well for them, but I can speak for myself. And I'm sure we'll Tyler we we we really got lucky that John was so thirty throw with his investigative reporting milks, give me a less thirty seconds here. Does this? Collapsed happen without the reporting as well as without federal regulators, take no look how important was the journalism here hugely important. And that's one thing that we should all be aware of at this time when you know, our president is calling the press the enemy of the people. Good journalism, motivates investigators in ways that I is palpable sometimes by embarrassing them. And sometimes just pushing the story in the facts Ford. I it's hugely important thing that John and portent lesson among many from Alex Gibney director of HBO's, the inventor out for blood and Silicon Valley, Alex, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. And thank our thanks to theranos, former employees Erica Chung, a whistle blower who helped federal authorities unravel the company's lies Erica chunk. Thanks so much. Thank you, also, John Kerry rue the Wall Street Journal investigative reporter who blew this into the open and author of Blad bad blood secrets and lies in the Silicon Valley startup our thanks to you. Thank you. You continue the. Conversation. Get the on point podcast or website. It's produced by Anna Bowman Brian Hartson ski Eileen a modest a final cut Sonus Alison poli Tanya rally James Ross, Al Schroeder out in Waller with help from Matt hoesch Aseel ki-be and Alex Pena a happy birthday to our most junior producer that zella Folkenflik. Our executive producer is Karen Shiffman. I'm David Folkenflik. This is on point.

Elizabeth homes Alex Gibney theranos Silicon Valley Wall Street Journal John Alex HBO John Kerry Steve Jobs Erica Chung David Folkenflik Elizabeth fraud director NPR John Kerry Roo Pulitzer prize Erika Chong Erica Academy Award
No Film School Live from Sundance 2019 Pt.1

The No Film School Podcast

45:01 min | 2 years ago

No Film School Live from Sundance 2019 Pt.1

"This episode of copen school podcast is brought to you by black. Magic design. Black magic designs Davinci. Resolve software combines professional offline and online editing color correction audio post production, and now this will fix all. In one software tool the standard for high post production Davinci, resolve is used for finishing more Hollywood feature films episodic television programming and TV commercials than any other software. It is also brought to you by the Rhode caster pro podcast production studio. The revolutionary new all in one podcasting solution from Rhode microphones to get into running to win a complete podcasting setup including road, caster pro and all new road pod. Mike head to give away dot road. Caster dot com and list. The eight features of the road caster pro in the same order as the road team. Hey, everybody, this is John few SCO. And I'm here with I'm Eric lures, and George L men, and we've got a special treat for you today. It is. A special report from Park City for Sundance two thousand nineteen I'm an old vet here at this point. And Eric is a second year vet does that make me vet when you hit your second year? Yeah. I guess I have some familiarity. So I guess that does qualify me as having some advice to give your also at the point where you could be moving into a sophomore slump. Exactly. Exactly. So I may have peaked my rookie year. I've heard two year veteran before the okay good. Then I will take that title, and George this is your first Sundance and also kind of the first time anyone of our audiences hearing your voice. So why don't you? Go ahead. And like tell us who you are George Evelyn. I'm the senior editor at no film school. But this is the first time I've been on a no film school podcast. I'm a rookie. I'm an old rookie. I've been in the G league for a long time. Developmental league for those who don't follow sports. We don't imagine that you do. So providing some explanation, I'm big on sports metaphors, which doesn't always work. But I'm a first time Sundance film festival goer. I've been writing about it a little bit on the site. I've worked in the entertainment industry, my whole adult life, and I never came to Sundance. My my plan was always I was gonna go Sundance film. But I'm very happy to be at Sundance as press. That's second best or just as good. I know so many people out of LA who go to Sundance like just go people in LA do that just to see the movies. So I was always like, no, I think I'll wait until I have like a legit reason. Not that that's not a legit reason. But I wanna wait till I have a professional reason to be there. So it's cool to be here is cool to get my press badge. I only recently made the shift from being in the filmmaking world and production world to being in the media world. That's only a two year shift from me, so two or three you. But it's almost the best being here has press. Honestly, I think we get treated better than anyone. We're allowed to select a certain amount of tickets and advance, you know, free of charge. Also, there are peon ice screenings for precedent industry. So if you have a badge, and you show up early enough, and it's not so crazy popular in crowded. You can get into those as well. So I think we have a little bit more flexibility. I think tickets single tickets. Costs about twenty seven dollars. And they sell out like that. They saw very quick I was with a friend earlier today who told me about how she was trying to get tickets to a film three years ago. So she just went on Craigslist to try and find someone who is selling tickets this person still hits her up. Now every time she comes to Sundance asking if she's at Sundance and is trying to sell her tickets for a hundred dollars a pop, so the scalping Israel. Scalping? I wouldn't be here. There'll be a lot of people with signs tickets, or you know, if you have an extra ticket, please. I think they're hoping to get free one by someone that just doesn't need it five minutes before Showtime. But stacey. So we're we're really pampered yet. No, it's crazy. I noticed that like, I mean, it makes sense. It's kind of four press in a way, it makes a lot of sense. But it is really cool. And I even say I wrote on the site earlier today, it's easy to forget in the shit show of it all that this is about movies, but sitting there watching a movie today, it was like, wow. This is awesome. Like, this is a great way to see a movie you're with a lot of the crew you're with some of the cast Joe with the director. They're excited to show it for maybe the first time or second time to an audience. It hasn't been released. It's a very cool way to experience filmgoing unique way. So I kind of feel like it shouldn't have taken me this. Long to get here. Yeah. I mean, there's something special about going to film festival. You know, everyone is talking about film. Everyone is relatable. And that way, we all have our own projects that were either suffering with or we're celebrating and Sundance is a real. It's it's almost like it's almost like the Academy Awards of film festivals. I would say is I feel like it's still possible. Now being my second time here to get festival foam. Oh from being here because there are so many storylines going on believe that there was a protest today protesting the Michael Jackson for our documentary. And there's all these things are Michael Jackson. There's so many four that I don't even know like even having gone through and selected the tickets and gone through the program and studied it and created our schedules. I can still hear about something like what is that? You'll want to be there for each and every single thing, but you can't but you'll be maybe following along on Twitter and being like, oh my God. Wait, this is going on. This is the talk of Sundance. I'm at doing this entirely other path and finding my way, and it's because of where it lands sort of in the ark of the festival season. It is like the first major festival. So you really haven't heard about a lot of these movies that are gonna be there. And a lot of it is guesswork as to which one is actually going to be the one that sort of stands out among the rest, and as members of the press, you don't really find that out until two or three days in this is only our first day here. We're actually doing this special report as a part of a two part series. I suppose this one coming out Monday, you know, at the beginning when we don't really have any. Sort of idea about what the festival is going to be like, and then we'll do later in the week where we do a recap of what did succeed what the big movies have been. We have seen a few you know, and talking about festival foam. Oh, I was watching the screener. And I started really regretting the fact that I wasn't able to sit in a theater with an audience in here. Everybody laugh and hear everybody cry and just be like a part of a greater thing. And maybe see the special guest of honor at the end during a human a for me this morning that was one of the cool things was like everybody laughing at the at the lines that were like the Joe like it's just a cool theatrical experience in a unique one I actually remember attending a festival as a filmmaker and being annoyed at the venue, and at the way the projector was and all these things and even though that was of lower rung lower tier? When I was talking to one of the filmmakers after the film. I saw today I was really curious if he had like similar sort of like frustrations because you as a filmmaker you want the very best possible. And this was a movie that really needed. It was it was a really crisp perfectly executed technically movie. And I was really curious if somewhere he was in. He was like, yeah. And so and the PR people really have we it's hard to accept that. It's like the venues even at Sundance aren't quite perfectly attuned. So it's still got that festival feeling. You know, it's not like you're in the arc light or whatever the New York equivalent, or you know, some of the theaters are kind of makeshift theatres in other some in the library center in the library one in recreational hall. I think there's one also in a synagogue or I have not been okay. Last year. I went to one that. I believe was of the Judy Judaism religion. And I believe it was a synagogue. But I like we were actually watching a film in the synagogue. But it was a recreational center area as well. And that's where we watch the film. So they can kind of take over a lot of spots in the Park City. Yeah, I'm mmediately thought after this movie that I have to go see this. When it's out in the best theaters. It's going to be in because it was great seeing it this way. But it was clear. It was like this not exactly I was meant to be. So what movies have you seen so far? I saw Paulo eleven is that the movie talking about. It's just a. It's a it's got never before seen footage of the Apollo eleven mission. Which when I read about it in the press kit. I was like, okay. Like, how what what is this really going to be like we've seen a lot of this footage? But it's so perfectly restored and blown up, and they add it sound that didn't exist. They found all the soundtracks. It's just an unreal experience. It was it was a time machine. More than a movie, honestly, very cool, very verite style for something that comes from the past like that. It was very unique. But very cool experience. But I gotta see max, it's probably companion piece to I man, right? It's sort of is. Yeah. It's the timing is weird. That's not. It's not the goal. It was not their intent. I don't think. But yet it is. And what's fascinating is that in a movie like I men 'cause it's fiction you have to create the gravity and the drama the real miss and in this. They don't the realises there. But what they do. Instead is they get to create humor. Because anytime one of the astronauts made a joke or anything kind of human or weird or silly happens. It's like a roar of laughter because the seriousness of the moon landing is present the whole time in I feel like they had to like convince you that it was a legit. You know, this is what happened. So that was that was just interesting. Comparison between the two, but yeah, I think it will be that'll be where people go because that was last year this'll be this. How about you Eric have you seen anything? Yeah. I've seen one I highly recommend is called premature by a director named Mashad Ernest. Green believe this is his second feature. His I was a gun hill road which was about seven years ago since then he's direct a lot of television, including supernatural that TV show on the CW a believe or was I think it's still going on. And it's about a young girl living in Harlem who's about to go with college. But it's the summer in New York City. She meets a boy things happen. She gets pregnant she's unsure of what to do. And it's kind of a slice of life, New York. Indie shot on sixteen millimeter. It was actually shot in September. They shot the entire feature from September fourth through the twenty seven so three and a half weeks. They shot this feature and they made it into Sundance two months later, but it's very well acted and very. Heartfelt. Raising victim ARGUS is a film that they draw a lot of similarities to and they cite as reference another one is light from light. Which is in the next section from a director, Paul Harrell. That's about a woman who may or may not be able to speak the spirits. She had some signs that she could when she was younger. And now she kinda moonlights on the side as a medium, I guess, you could say, but it's never clear if she can really do this or not or if that's really even real she gets hired by a widower played by Jim gaffe, again whose wife died in a plane crash, and he's starting to experience some disturbances in his home that may be his deceased wife. So he hires her, and it's very moving. It's very religious film cathartic film as well on the opposite end of that spectrum. I also saw a documentary called hail Satan, which is about the Tanic temple TST. And that was very funny. And it's actually they don't believe in. A Satan figure. It's more about the separation of church and state religious, pluralism pro-science science, imagine that pro women's rights and things like that. It's like a counterculture to a lot of the Christianity that is a stronghold on America. If you will and these mentioning special guests, the leader of the satanic temple was in attendance as well. So he came up for the Cuna afterwards as well. So that was pretty cool. Just for you listeners benefit we've been here for less than twenty four hours. And we like you've seen three films already to in New York to be fair. So I watched that silk two weeks ago. But yes, yeah, I'm in the same boat. I've seen four movies. Already, which is kind of crazy. But all also to that I've seen in Park City proper. The first one is a documentary called ask Dr Ruth, which I watched last night on the couch and. After you know, a full day of travel and the projectionist on account. Oh, it's. We thought he needed his own personal space have. If you don't know, Dr Ruth is a sex doctor. So it was it was a good idea that you guys we're out of the room because it's a brush hear you laughing. I was I was dying. It was it's funny. It's tragic. This woman has lived the most incredible life full of so much adversity so much tragedy. And so so full. Haven't stopped talking. I haven't saw I was telling I was telling you about earlier today. And I was just like just the fact that this woman has gone through so much adversity and is so off the mystic and is so -ccomplish d- in exists. I doesn't like it makes me feel like I should be sad about anything. So. Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna tell tell you too much better life because I don't really want to ruin it for you. I want you to see it yourself. You ruined. I know. I did. I'm sure. More than that. You know, it sound like she lived a very has lived a very full life. She's still alive. It's very entertaining. And it yeah, she's still alive. She's ninety years old, which is why I was upset that I didn't go to the screening because I was like, oh, maybe she would have been there. Into the shuttle. I'm hoping I do I don't think it's once parties, she probably is. She is just moving Hulu swag. Dr Ruth is where so that'll be out on who soon. Hopefully who is making a killing on these documentaries lately. What are the other ones? I mean, they have minding the gap. They pick that up here last year punishment punishment. I mean more recently the fire fest documentary, which they released a day before Netflix is fire fest documentary, which was genius on their part. Because I think personally, I think it's better documentary watch both. But yeah, they're carving out their own space. Really? Yeah. Compared it makes sense. It makes sense. And then earlier today, I saw one of my most anticipated movies, which was Honey boy, which is booth is it Labou for. Either or beef LeBow Shiloh, boss screenwriting debut. It is. God damn how do I how do I describe this bio pic, or it's essentially a bio pic, it's essentially a movie that he wrote about his own life. While he was in rehab, dealing with a lot of anger issues. Some PTSD issues on some alcoholism issues. It's takes place over sort of two spans of time. The first we see a young Shilo booth played by Noah Joop, and in that timeline Shiloh booth is playing his own father abusing himself. So it's it's very it's very interesting to watch. And I know interesting is not a great word. But it's unlike really anything I've ever seen before. And then in the second world, it's contemporary modern day Shiloh booth, but trial boof is being played by Lucas hedges who really embodies style of Boothferry will. And it's got some great performances. It's funny. It's sad. It's self indulgent. It's really a trip. It's a it's a whacky movie is like a back door transformers reboot. So funny phone enough. The movie opens with basically a transformers esque scene where it's Lucas hedges strapped to a harness of some kind. You see an explosion happened and than him like pull away like blow? He's blown away. And then like they have to reset. And it's just like live real time him getting real Becky and on this harness. So they can go again, it's really it's really it's well-done instructed by almo Hurrell who is making her feature narrative debut variety reported that got a standing ovation after the screening, which maybe kind of typical here. I don't know if that is typical I mean, it was the world premiere. So I think it's expected, and it's such a deeply personal film that it's hard not to commend Shaya for what he's done. Yes. Oh, got it. Got like say half the room withstanding. I was not saying I don't like I don't really like standing ovations mob mentality peer pressure. Yeah. It is too much peer pressure, especially after movie because it's like, I don't think I've really ever seen a movie aside from Dr Ruth when I gave it a standing ovation last night was wondering what you need to stand up. And like really applaud let's be honest. Those people standing or trying to exit. They are. They are interesting. So yeah. But I mean, it was it was very good. It was very good film. But as we're talking about sort of our most anted films, we came out with an article a couple of days ago, noting what some of our most intimate films were do wanna go around and talk a little bit about those. Yeah. Mine. One of mine was Apollo eleven. And it it lived up to my expectation. I just love I like old movies. I like old things. But you do you like old women talking about sex in? We have a film. I've heard about a movie that has that in it. So I like I love the capturing another time the sound the methods of recording things and the movie even if you don't care about the moon landing. Honestly, just watching the people watching it is fascinating because it's crisp looking and it's nineteen sixty nine as though it's right in front of you. It's just a really so it lived up to my expectations. My other ones were hollow. I'm seeing tomorrow. And I'm looking forward to that. She's a blacklist screenwriting winter, and it was based on a short, and it's a sort of unique filmmaker perspective, and, you know, first time filmmaker there's a lot of things there that I'm excited about getting a unique voice. And then what was my other? Based on the classic novel Luce of Mike and man. I mean, I don't I, you know, that's that's some of the music that I grew up around loving, you know, when my youth and Staten Island, just kidding. But I, but yeah, I just I'm looking forward to seeing it, and that's not till the end of the festival for me. And I think they already have we might might get to do some press with them later. But I think they already have all their distribution and stuff all setup. So it's not gonna be the same as some of these others. And actually since I got here there's some others now that I'm really excited about seeing. In the meantime, so, you know, things just happen and surprise you. Well, yeah, let's we'll save that for the the next one. And we'll see if those ones are up to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, speaking about movies that we aren't really getting interviews for it seems like that's been a trend as of this festival. A lot of movies are coming with distributors. Already are a lot of the movies that were most interested in very simple. My two three most anticipated films. Honey, boy, which had just talked about the death of dick long, which is something that Liz talked about earlier this year. Michael again, she said it was her most suspended movie of the year. But goodness gracious. That's correct. I forgot it that tomorrow night. I'm seeing it tomorrow night. Again, the world premiere which is pretty cool Dana, I'm a big fan of the Daniels. As I think some of, you know, this is just half of the Daniels group Daniels directed Swiss army man, and they were on the podcast last year with us at south by southwest which was retreat. This is Daniel shine heart only solo in. He also plays a role in the film, which I didn't know he plays dick long. Off a dare from his screenwriter Billy chew. And the film is about a hillbilly rock band who has to cover up the death of one of their band members. And I mean, I'm just stoked because I think Dana shiner is one of the funniest people alive. So I'm really excited to see what they do very inventive person to. And then my next film wounds is a movie from Balkan vary. Who is the director of a movie called under the shadows? Which is a terrifying movie. This is another movie in the midnight section this year, but he's kind of taken production up a couple notches. He's got Armie hammer into coda Johnson and his cast his previous film under the shadow was in Iranian language horror. Film in wounds is about a bartender who picks up a phone left behind at his bar in has to deal. With some disturbing consequences. Boy, I've left my phone at a bar one. Actually, no, I didn't it was a credit card. I was just once and you know, how they say like they'll show touted you how did you? How did you miss steak the phone for the credit card? I was so involved in your description of the plot. And I agree with it was studying description. Let me just go along with that. I realize the weight it was a credit card on the phone. What are you excited for? Yeah. To mind one is dot called the brink by director, Alison Klayman who has made a bunch of other one about I we and one called take your pills, which was about addiction to Adderall that was on Netflix last year permits up by south west, this one is a kind of fly on the wall documentary about the ultra right-wing thought leader if you will Steve Bannon, I'm kind of interested because Earl Morris the documentarian had made American Dharma, which was a film about Seve Bannon as well that came out and premiered, I think Toronto last year. So this one I believe a little bit more fly on the wall, and regardless of party lines. You fall on I think it's probably going to be a fascinating watch. And the other one as we're here at Sundance people are binging on Netflix. This Ted Bundy tapes, which is I think a six hour documentary by director Joe Berlinger about Ted Bundy and people. Are eating that up. And actually Joe Berlinger also made in narrative feature about Ted Bundy this premiering here. So it's the thirtieth anniversary I believe this month of his execution. So I guess we should celebrate doesn't Zaka from Zach Ephron plays Ted Bundy, it's called extremely wicked shockingly evil in vile in it's in the premier section and Zaka from plays the notorious serial killer if you will and it's going to be a companion piece to the Netflix series. That is the documentary side. It's cool to see a director doing both the dock and the narrative, and it has Zaka Ron is definitely it's buzzy. What's tribute? What's the scarier role? Here is Jack Ephron is Ted Bundy. Or is it shall booth as his has his own abusive father? I think that probably requires more work. You know, I think any of these movies in any of these movies. I'm putting them in genre. Where like they're based on famous serial killers. Like there were some Jeffrey Dahmer ones and just once upon a time in Hollywood sort of. We'll be about Charles Manson. Well, you know, like I feel like it's always very foreshadow. E you know, there's something off about the character from the beginning. The is a little too evil. What we know is gonna kill people that. Yeah. The movie seems to know it too. So why not just tell you my correct both shy and Zac Efron or Disney channel. Yes. They are. So there's clearly a strategy work there, which is like, let's take charming disney'll. I mean type don't think you could ever mistaken Ted Bundy for a Disney channel star. I would see shallow booths Ted Bundy, then I feel it would make more sense. So I kind of liked that Zecha FRANZ really getting out of his comfort zone because. Outside of what is the high school musical? I guess was his biggest claim to fame, but he's made some other movies. I don't really know what Robert deniro. Oh, dirty grandpa, damn and Baywatch. They use good in something not that you know, like. That he was very good in something. Hey, forget what it was. Yeah. I think it's interesting because shy would he has a menace. There's something that casting a guy like Zac Efron. That's like you really going with the charming Ted. They have to be thinking like we don't want to imply that there's anything off. Well, here's like he was a pretty charming, dude. Actually, Ted Bundy. Oh, yeah. I think he was. And I think he was not personally speaking. Consider him attractive. Okay. Again, just saying there is that part of it with Manson, right? There's like this the charisma of these right? That's part of it. So it seems like there's something they're they're working towards their this podcast is brought to you by the Rhode caster pro podcast production studio. The revolutionary all in one podcasting solution from Rhode microphones with its four class, a microphone inputs, eight sound pads to trigger music and affects the ability to stream phone calls seamlessly bluetooth and USB can activity for easy audio streaming and so much more. It is truly professional podcasting made easy simply plug in your microphone turn up your failures and hit record to get in the running to win a complete road podcasting setup. Head to give away dot road. Caster dot com and list. The eight features of the road caster pro in the same order as the road Castro team. This podcast is also brought to you by black magic design. Batman design has grown rapidly to become one of the world's leading innovators and manufacturers of creative. Technology. The company's philosophy is refreshing and simple to help true creativity blossom by allowing the highest quality video to be affordable to everyone. It's products include the world's highest quality video editing products, digital cameras coach directors live production switchers in a host of other hardware feature film, push production and television broadcast industries the pockets in a camera. Four K is black magic designs new next generation four K and hill camera. It comes with dual native ISO with an amazing up to twenty five thousand six hundred ISO incredible life performance a full four thirds HDR sensor and thirteen stops dynamic range. It also comes with both pro res- or raw, according to internal SD you adjust to and see fast cards or even external USB see drives eliminating the need for expensive external reporters, so George this being your first Sundance. We we were wondering actually if you had any questions for us before the weekend really starts tomorrow on Saturday. Yeah. I do I think it sort of along the lines of the festival foam. Oh as Eric called it. I sometimes I don't know where I'm supposed to be what I'm supposed to be doing. Because if I don't have something on the schedule. It's just like, well is there something I could be exploring or experiencing or covering, you know, if I don't have a screening to go to and I've tried to get into several when I have the open space try to go into several parties that I've we get a lot of party invites that's not to brag, I think a lot of. I think a lot of people do and we try to RSVP to so many because these parties have heat, and sometimes they have free food, you know. So it's nice in actual physical heat as in like fire. They have a copy of the Michael Mann. Versions of heat. So they have that. So it's good to RSVP Peter as many as you can just in case you happen to be in the area, and you do have free time. But I mean, that's very it is hard to you have to make yourself a very strict schedule and kind of stick to that. And sometimes ignore some of the outside noise that dictates where you think you should be. Yeah. And I would say I wrote a I wrote a a piece for no film school a piece. Yeah. We talked about we talked about that. I'm glad you wrote it. And I think I came off more as like a mother figure that I was trying to, but it's really something you gotta like pay attention to. So I would say if you do have any downtime, honestly, like it's probably best spent by yourself. Dr Ruth watching Dr Ruth or just like taking some time to sort of breathe in a way because you, you know, as you say there's so much. It's overwhelming you can find yourself. Just literally standing on a street corner kind of freaking out about like not knowing what to do or where to go. I did actually get a little moment yet. Shouldn't you know, you shouldn't do that? Because you have so much other shit going on that you have to remember like, it's okay to take a breath and just follow your schedule. So water lotion. Those are things that I've I have never put lotion on and not felt the be sticky at you know, what I put it on it's gone or learning a lot about George his first. Yeah. About attractive? It's crazy though. It's so dry that mountain air the altitude the out the toots, you can get that can be very tough to 'cause we're going from the interviews to screening, and they could be in very opposite parts of the SEC. City. So it can be difficult just to even close your eyes from Ken. Itself when you're doing maybe three or even four I know some people do for five films in a day. And you know, when that fatigue is started to hit you and jetlag. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the nice thing for me is that I don't have to children waking me up at all hours here. So actually got an a restful night's sleep. But yeah, it was pretty intense today. Running the combination of like running walking shuttling Uber. Ing trying to figure out where the hell. I was like. Yeah. The I said I sit in the post I wrote objects on the math or farther apart than they appear like it's very hard to gauge just like I'm walking in the middle of the snow like where am I going theater? You know, it's an adventure though. It's fun. Another one of my tips that I gave in that article was to give yourself like at least an hour to get to anything between anything. So like if I had a movie at eight thirty which I do I would like to leave Homebase or wherever I'm at at seven. Thirty to make sure that I'm there like a half hourly at least so I can get in line and get an okay spot in theater and also just to like not freak yourself out stresses. No full yet. Distress is no fun. When like publicist reschedules in interview or has the shift something or shift a location, and we're not from here. So it's kind of like let me just plug in this address on my phone in see if I can actually do that in fifteen minutes, or what do I do in this moment? So you can get a little I've had those where up can make at can't do all these things. But you just take it one at a time. And you know, it works out everything 'cause yeah, I think that like especially for like having first time having never come before. And kind of like had an idea of what Sundance is. I think that one of the interesting things on the ground is that everything in other festivals. Feels like it kind of flows out from the design of this one. Like, I feel like this is the mother of festivals and whatever festivals you feel like this kind of feels like this is the archetype, and they're kind of built around, and and it's massive nece it sprawl and its many venues, and like many people and the way it affects all Park City. And it's kind of a cool thing to behold, I would say like as a first timer. Anybody considering coming in just experiencing it if you love movies or just you're interested in I think, it's a really cool unique experience and hard to probably like today when I was speaking with the director of this movie, I was almost bummed out that we only had so much time. You know, you're around these people and filmmakers, and it's it's a cool unique. We're lucky we're very lucky. We'll thing to do as you're saying it's like very spread out fest. Evil. But it's it's also feels very intimate and confined in a way. Like, everything is always packed somehow even though it's so so far apart couple of other things I were mentioned to now that I'm thinking about it. It seems like almost everybody's got the same kind of jacket, and I didn't realize this when I bought my jacket, but I bought the same jacket. Everyone else seems to have well there's also a common common hat wear common. Like, there's definitely a look like this is Sundance like, and it's I would also say it's somewhere combined between like New York LA aesthetic. They meet in the middle. City near LA mountain aesthetic, you know, something people who spend very little time in the mountains. I guess. I think they should learn the mountains the filmmakers who have films in the festival, don't they get certain jacket. I get hoes puffy jacket. There's maybe a uniform standard there is there is actually a volunteer puffy jacket. It's different than what I feel like everybody else like ticked off. Kennedy goose is the big one. I see everyone around those goose jackets. It's just it's weird. I noticed as soon as I got on the plane in LAX was like, oh, these are those are the people going SOC. Those are the people who are just on this plane, right? Like, the real Salt Lake City residents from those who are just visiting. Yeah. They're nice. They're nice people throws Manders main thing if you thinking Uber here like you, actually talk to your driver. You know, like throws me off a little bit as taking are you guys? Taking new be everywhere. With the groceries. Okay. That's actually, I I've been all over the trying to make it. I realize that one point today. Like Uber isn't going to be faster. Gotta wait for them for being in LA where there's a guy right around the corner ready to grab the fare. Like, it might be a guy dropping off some skiers some weird. I saw some skiers walking rose like wow, people skiing this weekend. And on that note. Another tip is trying find a place if you come here that is off of the shuttle line. So we're we found a place weirdly restoring in the exact same place that we stayed two years ago and last we didn't book it Ryan booked it. Our our CEO founder booked it. And he didn't know that it was the savings act place is the exact same of the exact same apartment. Oh, that's weird. I was within when we booked it. And obviously, I didn't know either. Yeah. It's exactly the same. It's a fine apartment. It's got a PS two very cool. But that being said find a place that. It is close to shuttle line or shuttle, stop you'll be really happy. You did because you can just jump on that shuttle and get anywhere. Yeah. Any more questions George for for us before we enter into this weekend. I can give a few more pieces of advice, so far we're health him. I only ask you guys questions on the podcast when it's off. We can't talk anymore. I don't know if we're gonna see each other. So yeah, it's a good question. Is there anything else I really wanted to? I guess I'm just gonna go down to mainstream now and see what's happening. Try not to party too hard. St. they're going to be drinks flow. You're tired now. Wait until you're three point four point zero percent. Those days are behind me. Luckily, it was hard for percent. You're going to be fully over. That's a good thing. I was in your ten years ago. Still we're still pretty healthy. You know, we're trying to we're trying to say healthy emergency. We've got we bought some emergency stocked up on, you know, bring a medicine cabinet because everyone gets sick here. And then as I was saying, you know, it's it's far apart and things are spread far apart. But people get real close, very quick gets your. We'll all get whatever Ryan Ryan is sick with a hundred plus degree fever and his coming here. So we're all we're just you know, were tiny little dating. Because the risk just wasn't enough. Just being effluence as they call it. Oh, eat food. Yeah. I remember food food thing is all kinds of a wack like today at one point today. I was like, oh, there's doughnut things and I'm starving. I'm just gonna eat those difficult because there aren't a lot of places. There aren't a little little shops that you can just jump into to get a quick bite around here. Don't really exist or they're being used for parties and exclusive activation events they are not allowed to get into. So exclusive activation. Like, the chase sapphire line checkout. Go to go see celebrities being photographed by people. I get emails of those photographs. Ota guess most healthy option we have is a seven eleven nearby nearby. Seven eleven should be twenty four hours. I believe it's hard to it's also hard to eat because if you give yourself an hour between like anywhere to get anywhere where when do you have time to definitely can't sit down, and it's very cold outside. So you have to think on your feet and I walked by Burger King. That one I actually used as like one of my points of reference when I'm trying to figure out how to get back to the condo or get to the Ray Burger King. Seven eleven in the USA landmarks exactly one thing that you can do to prepare is go to a grocery store and stock up on like deli meats and breakfast bars. And what else did we get? She's it's cheesy systems shot Espresso, drink beer LaCroix. We couldn't find the LaCroix and we got seltzer water. And then I noticed as we were loading into the pickup Uber that we have to look chronic. I said something like oh grabbed the LaCroix. And the driver said, oh, you guys must be filmmakers with the LaCroix. Bring them. He couldn't stop saying that he kept saying it was starting to annoy me always I guess, they don't drink LaCroix. He kept saying, oh, I guess I can't turn left, and I guess you fill the crying just really wanted one baby. Maybe it's another one of those things that it's like that were Brooklyn meets Silverlake in Salt Lake is the is the just abundance of LaCroix like as soon as you can get your hands on it. We should be spent we should work out a sponsorship with they're looking for podcast like this. I think they're so Georgia. I am also going to bring up that you did do one mistake that I had listed on my my piece so to speak and that was number two high up there avoid screenings in Salt Lake City. Yes, I know. And you actually told me that you guys have been beating that drum ever since our first calls about Sundance. And I, you know, the the reason it happened is I don't know the names of the theaters. So I just see the movie I wanna see and you just like selected, and then when I got here, and I was looking the calendar last night. I said to you like, oh, I got a Salt Lake City, and you book looked like no, you don't. Okay. Fine with me like well. The whole selection process is very difficult and stressful to your credit. So that was scary. It was like being under the gun. Like they've got that big timer up like, and you're updating your car and your skinning and your jotting down. What your stuff's going to each day? I was like sweating bullets. They really psych you out by giving you like a fifteen page PDF how to order tickets by that point. You were so freaked out that you're gonna do something wrong. When I was one of my first questions to John about it was I said like so's this like complicated. PDF something for people who don't know how to by selling online because it really was like a step by step like log into your computer, like boot up your system and been safari or your web browser. And I think said kind of. Because it is pretty intense intense. But it's also a to it. If you've used a computer before to buy something, you can probably navigate it. But they put that time the timer. Stressed me out. Like, I was I was down to my thirty seconds. Like watching takes down. We you still making decisions because I was trying to because I spent so much time trying to figure out where things work because I was really worried about of course, I screwed that up. But like, I was I was really conscious of like where the places I'm am. I going to be able to get from one to the other what I didn't realize that if you don't get something it's not the end of the world because you can speak to the PR people, and maybe get in any other thing. I didn't realize Ryan pointed this out to me was that you can actually start talking to them about this is not useful to people aren't press. But you can start interviews before you figure out the film. So you can say I really wanna interview. So and so I wanna see the film they'll get you a ticket. So those ten tickets or a screener or link, so I think some of the stress for me was over the top. But live and learn well, I think with that we. Should probably wrap it up because we gotta get to go see some more movies. But I will just say if you do good festivals. Try and prioritize the movies that like don't have distribution yet trying go see some weird shit whereabouts. Probably go see some weird shit right now. And are so some weird shouldn't live here when you were watching Dr real. Yep. Wait. Hey, you're supposed to be in there. I learned you hiding behind the couch. And yes, so you know until Thursday you'll hear more about our crazy experiences at Sundance. Like what kind of soup? I'm gonna eat tonight. Maybe. Yeah, we will all make it without getting sick. I don't think. So. No, okay. I'm pretty well. I don't want to jinx myself. I'm pretty sturdy. I've been exposed to like every germ on the planet kids. So I think I'm in good place. But you know, so yeah, it's kind of cool because our listeners will now be able to hear you go to tune back into find out. What happens? We'll actually they should do like an odd. Stay okay. Especially with Ryan coming. We're all gonna I think we're gonna be sick. I guess. I of the two there's two soups also so yes, well, I'm having one soup now. Everybody. All right, guys. So until Thursday, we'll see you then always remember to subscribe to the no film school podcasts. Whatever podcast by form you use. If you like us give us a rating, if you don't also give us a rating in we'll try and improve the promises. Okay. Good night. Anything you guys say to our lovely people. Thank you so much for listening and can't wait for the death of dick long. My most -ticipant film of twenty nineteen dammit air. You're listening. We're already a little crazy wait till Thursday by.

Sundance director Dr Ruth Eric George Ryan Ryan Park City Salt Lake City LA Ted Bundy Rhode Joe Berlinger Netflix John New York dick long George Evelyn Charles Manson Craigslist Sundance
The Hawke-aissance is here!

At The Movies with Arch and Ann

57:32 min | 2 years ago

The Hawke-aissance is here!

"At the movies with arch Enam is on. Now here we are the weekly entertainment fide cast featuring the returning hand Hornets. Your fill critic of the Washington Post. Just back from chip. Rocco film festival trip, and then the rest of us. Arch campbell. Movie guy, Mark stern. He's Nigel on the Tony Kornheiser show and we're back together. Again, we're all happy to be here. Welcome back from Toronto. And since you binged for a fortnight? Yes. Tell what is the headline from the Toronto film festival? What did we learn? The headline is there were a lot of good movies but not that many great ones. Oh, I had one transcendent day that started with if Beale street could talk, which is the new berry Jenkins movie. And then and moonlight the moonlight, the guy that did moonlight and ended with Roma from Alphonso quarrel. And those were probably the two strongest movies I saw there and they're both really poetic and Beale street is where they recorded all the RN v, but it's actually taken from James Baldwin novel, and it's about a black couple in New York. Just navigating their lives. Navigating intimacy navigating starting a family fam- their own families of origin. Policing, you know, it's it's set in the in the early seventies, but it's very resonant with a lot of things that are going on today. And like moonlight berry Jenkins tells the story and very visual way and a very emotional way. So it's not super talk. It's not super linear and seen. He really just immerses you into their experience in their lives and and the actors are gorgeous. I, it's a really sensuous experience and Roma's the same way Romo from Lonzo Koran inspired by his own upbringing in Mexico City also in the seventies. But he tells this in black and white with mostly non-professional actors playing the nannies of his of his sort of semi autobiographical family and very similar in terms of just observing life and it. Observing people reacting to their circumstances and having ups and downs, and tragedies, and triumphs, and they're both just deeply moving. I mean, they were really extrordinary role, Moses story of class or class. Yeah. I mean, it's the story of this. It was based on his real life. The woman who really took care of him when he was growing up and they're not a super wealthy family. It's like a middle class intellectual family, but they do have help. They have domestic help in their home. And so it's about the inner Twining of those spaces, you know, and how, how somebody who works for you over years does become a member of the family and the great love that exists between them. But it's also a family in crisis. The parents are going through a divorce and there's just a lot. There's a lot of politics ruling outside. So it's about a very small story and also a really big story all at once. And it's just absolutely exquisitely filmed and and just bursting with feeling they were both. It was interesting how they kind of talked to each other, you know, in terms of their style. Calls when while we're speaking of Roma, there is a sidebar that I think we need to talk about that I makes its talk to you about because Monday there was a front page story in the Washington Post this Oscar season with Roma streaming service faces a pivotal moment. And they go on to say that Roma which is clearly getting a lot of Oscar buzz distributed by Netflix, and they seem to indicate that this could be a turning point. And the way we view movies and see movies and think about me. Yeah. I mean, I, I went to the party with both Steve Stevens. I check wrote that peace and we were both at the party afterwards from after the Toronto premiere. It had just Rama had just won the Golden Lion in Venice, came to Toronto in spoke with. They have a very bright guy at net flicks. He's in charge of their film division. Scott stupor and he he comes from universal, which I think universal. If you look at their film slates over the last few years, universal has figured something out. They have those franchises like the mummy and all those sort of intellectual properties. They're trying to reboot and bring back, but they've also done. They've been very successful with one offs, you know, like like straight outta Compton. I can't bring some other titles to mind, but I think they have been very astute at identifying audiences that are niche, but that have a possibility of going wide. And I think he's bringing that same sensibility to. It's interesting to me that he's the guy at net flicks because it seems like they're, they're developing, you know, they're, they have so much money and so many people, you know, when I was in LA last Oscar season, I was interested in mudbound because mudbound was movie. And I was concerned that the animus toward net flicks because they don't necessarily feel like they need to open every movie in theaters. They'll often just go straight to streaming. Although they did open mudbound few theaters. I was afraid that that that that people's ambivalence animus about that policy would would ex- out mudbound well, it ended up getting four nominations which was really a victory. I think, you know, I mean, yes, they haven't won yet other than documentary, but I felt like that that people are. Of equally concerned about the policy, but they also want the money. They wanna be a part of this. They are funding. So many projects, I mean is so many great filmmakers that there's this kind of push me pull you tension going on that I find is really fascinating, but they will definitely bring Roma out in theaters. They haven't announced the the, the release schedule yet or the release strategy, but my sense from spa speaking with Scott and just commonsense basis. I mean, this is a movie that really wants to be seen on a big screen. But you know, the filmmakers point of view Alphonso said this to me too. When we chatted, you know, and Reese said the same thing about mudbound is they want their movies to be seen by as many people as possible and not everybody is close to big, you know, an AFI that can show a huge epic. So they're interested in getting their stories out. So it's going to be a delicate balance, but I do sense that there's a shift going on since you mentioned that this ticks off in me kicks off in me. Bradley Cooper brought a star is born to Washington for a q. and a. in a personal appearance and one of the things he insisted upon is that we watch it in an I max theater, I'll out and I think we received when we watched a star is born. We, I mean, meaning the Washington critics people in town. We probably got the best presentation will ever get of stars. If I saw it and I max in Toronto, I can't remember if it was I max or not, but it was. It was like going to a concert. Yeah, they cranked up the volume. Yeah, it's an experience. I mean, every time was at a positive thing for you. I, you know, I admire that that they insist on a state of the art presentation, and I thought it was a good presentation, not. He did a great job. I really do for his first outing as director. I know, except I don't like that. He said I wanted. I'm only direct now. I can't believe because you know, honestly, I think that was also his best performance. I do. I think that was probably his best per I little bit about him as an actor. I thought he did a great job and I admire his direction a lot. I think he's take choosing more and more interesting roles. I think he's just developing. It'd be like you really coming to your own right now is an act, go ahead and direct, but I would miss them if he's in front of the cameramen. Good. I thought he, you know, it's funny. I think maybe we spoke about this when I was in Toronto, but when I take notes and jotted down God, it sounds like he's channeling Sam, Elliott. And before. And then it turns out he was and it was for a very good reason for the character. And that's kind of that's a subtle nuance that I thought he did a really. It was smart, and he did a great job with both. Imitation imitation of the immigration. I thought it was very clever and well executed. I think he's really got a chance to win best director. He did and he was queuing aid by George Stephen, everything at the horns. Well, that never stopped me. Your point. I'm just saying he did some old school things particularly in his use of close ups. And so when George interviewed him, George didn't ask questions so much as complement him because I think George saw those old school things and really appreciated them. It has a sounds like it might have overcome your skepticism. You have been such a naysayer on this, you know, country Zinger depressed and the the, he's on the way down and I'm not a fan of that plot, but I think it's an important movie. I can't watch it. It's so good. Okay. All right. We should save it for when we have seen. So another thing allied to Toronto this week. Michael Moore came to town to the uptown theater Monday night to preview Fahrenheit, eleven nine, and it was, I think it was a fundraiser or a gathering of the groups that supported Bernie Sanders. So it was a thoroughly messy, disorganized event where we were told to get there at six thirty and the movie started at eight. Provide the refreshments resum worker. Some caviar. There was a lot of Putin around. Six thirty and eight o'clock. That's sounds shambolic that had you went to a presentation there for Barron height. I was at the world premiere. Yeah. So that happened anyway. I'm the words in the words of Forrest Gump, and that's all I have to say about this is not my, it was not, you know, honestly, and I'm going to be writing about this at some point. I was really disappointed with all the political docks, including this one. I thought it was speaking of shambolic. I mean, it's it's another Michael Moore, is it just too strident or the course? It strident and it's it's, it's it's cheap shots and cherry picking and all of it. I just, you know, it's interesting because there was also a Steve Bannon documentary of their from Earl Morris, and I went to a little dinner for Michael Moore before the screening, and he had mentioned that he had met Steve Bannon and I, you know, I said Steve, Steve Bannon wants to be you. I mean, you know, Steve Bannon when you're setting out to documentaries, I think you know, he says aero Morris was a role model. I think Michael Moore was more of a role model and the same things that I find our weaknesses and Bannon's films are the weaknesses in this one. You know, it's, it's. Selective is hyperbolic. I don't particularly agree with his premise, you know, just in terms of the content which is formally, I thought like it was all over the place. The premise is we shouldn't be complacent or the premises things are going. They're going to suspend disbands the twenty twenty election that that's where I'm thinking more about how he, you know, he, he sets it up is how did we get here, right? That's the question he sets out to answer and I'm not sure that his explanation of how we got here is one that I particularly agree with. I have liked a few things about him particularly over his career. I've always found him very entertaining, and I always find his character, right? Yes, in the film because he's playing enter important distinction. This is true, and I do like the fact that everyone of his films touches back on his hometown of Flint, Michigan and particularly this year with the. The water salt wish God Flint, which is still going on by the way, just tragic it is. I mean, do you agree that like when he, I mean, you know you can disagree or agree with Obama and his policies. But I mean, really, he literally says Obama pave the way for Trump and I think that's a little bit much. The good son. He's entertaining he. He's, he views the world through the lens of hometown, Flint, Michigan. On the other hand, he always manages to go one step too far. And of course, the worst was Charlton. Heston in the gun documentary, went Heston clearly was suffering from dementia and more. Put him on the air anyway. And in this case, he has a segment of about Donald Trump and his daughter. That is too much. It's too much. You know what I had says, heated and kinda black amount. It's not for me. I have seen a bunch of stuff bowling for Columbine. Obviously, Michael in me. But I Roger me, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's just not for me. You know, I, I missed the one on on. I knew I was not going to enjoy it. And if I go into it sort of with my combative stance, that's probably not how I need to go into. But he he brings that out and of course he does. And you know what's weird to me is Fahrenheit nine, eleven is this kind of wanted know did so. Well, it's still, I think the most commercially successful didn't move. How are these other than just preaching to acquire? That's going to be going to Michigan, I believe is still in office who caused the and. I really was for Trump exac. Well, that's his point though. That's why he wanted to know why. And that's why he's blaming Obama for being so tone deaf when the opportunity defame well, given that he has his own hobbyhorses that he won't. I mean, we can anyway, I don't want to get involved with. It was forty five minutes too long, and it started repeating itself. Yeah, I don't think working against not as best. I'm not as dumb as you, but but I don't think it's you're not saying Russia rush out and see this. I think the people who are gonna see it are gonna see, sure he's got his audience. He's got his audience and that's that, but not as best. So should we talk about the house with a clock in its walls that house. This house. J K Rowling kind of movie picking a vet James Komi testimony. When he said he was called into the Oval Office, came through the door next to the grandfather clock. Left through the door of the grandfather clock was like it was like a gym, communist. Just wanted like a little paperback book to appear. The magnifying glass, Jackson. Directed by ally Roth, who was made some of the most. We don't think of his kids move rob at all. But you know, it's got this wink, wink, nudge nudge of comedy to it, and a young orphans parents of are wiped out and his uncle sense him the two dollars to come to town and live with him in this spooky old house where. At night and Kate Blanchet is the woman next door. They reveal that they are both that she is a witch and he is a Warlock and they are fighting the good fight against a bad Warlock. And it's very cute. It's very funny. I would say there's like one little spark missing. There's one little, you know, I would like to see go one little. They don't quite catch the. You know the the JK Rowling magic, but they come close. So I thought it was very cute. It sounds like something families can go to and having and the, I'm always looking for that. You know, I love recommending stuff like that to people -absolutely in the timing of this. So this is mid September. This'll probably be out on on demand DVD right around the holidays. It sounds like this if you miss it. Now if you sit and you like it, it'd be thing. He come back and revisit with will family sitting around the the heart, the heart. I'm trying to check. I'm very good point. Marc g. rated PG because I may NC seventeen. Different. You saw blaze, which I see Blaise. I really am a fan of blaze even cost. Oh my goodness. What do you know the hawk assaults. Moster. God bless. I mean, I hope he does get nominated for first reformed that was quite a performance. Then he's in Jewish. Probably my favorite little rom- comes the year naked, which I can't talk enough about it just so bitter myself. I told you what happens? No. Well, I tell arts. I went to the, no, I went to a went to Silver Spring. I thought it was over spring and it was a gallery place. I'm there. I was like, darn it. I roll screenings screw done that before I hate it. I've done that, but no, I, I saw the trailer and I fell in love with it. You know, I love this movie and I can't wait to see four and I love him. I love and they're all adorable. So then. But here's the funny part Juliet naked about a couple of the man of whom Chris O'Dowd is obsessed with this Colt singer-songwriter who who disappeared from the scene, and he has a blog about him and he can't stop talking about him and collects his bootlegs. And so then so Ethan plays that guy plays the musician and the movie. But here ethan's making a movie about a very similar figure. This guy blaze Foley been immortalized in towns, but he was a good friend of Townes van Zandt. Listen to Williams's written this very famous song about him called drunken angel, you know? So for those of us who were in that world of that kind of music that Americana ease known to a lot of people vans in the zebra book skin telling blues, Yep, throat Pancho and lefty and musici- Austin. Wondering just the best musical, the greatest singer, Steve Earle said, he's the greatest American. Well, this is when he was still alive. Greatest American living songwriter stand on my in my cowboy boots on Bob Dylan's coffee table that any was really was. And I, I knew him a little bit. We had a very good mutual friend in New York. So when he would come to New York, we'd always go see him at the at the kettle of fish, and he was a lovely, lovely man, and he's portrayed in this movie by Charlie Sexton who's another Austin musician really gifted guitars. He goes out with Dylan a lot. He's been played with Dylan in the early two, thousands. He was kind of a child prodigy tar player. Handsome, handsome, man, and does a wonderful job as towns. And this musician named Ben Dickey who's from Arkansas now in Philadelphia. I think is making his big screen debut as blaze and it's a wonderful movie. It's it's, it's about his marriage to a woman named civil Rosen, who's played by Elliott shock hot, and it's kind of a, it's kind of a nostalgia piece about his up and come coming career and their marriage. And then finally, you know his his kind of his own of alcoholism and self destruction and tragic tragic death. And we should say that this is a feature. Exactly. Feels like a documentary. Well, no, it doesn't. It feels like a if you like a movie movie and Ethan, ethan's directed before, and he didn't speaking of documentaries. He did a wonderful documentary a few years ago called Seymour an introduction about a piano piano music teacher that is just exquisite. So he knows muse it. He has an affinity, I think, for musical stories, and it's just a wonderful movie. I really enjoyed a great job. The the hawk Assange continues and shall we discuss life itself, which I would that we saw that. Who cried. I cry. Occasionally. I want to check my my phone. Yeah. Boredom. Well. I don't want to say that. I don't wanna say that it was great. Arch was sitting all the way up in the nosebleed seats all the way in the back in the top room on the very far set your favorite place. It is my favorite's actually, yes. And favorite play we should talk about, I know because I go down in the in looking front section. Jelly, you're in the front always in the front. Yeah, I was not all the way in the front, but I was like four rose up from the front, you know? And I told archers my favorite I walked in sat down and the lights went out, right, get it. This. But in this case, because I was at the very top, it looked like I was watching television. Yes, from the guy that does this is us, yes. Yeah, yeah, I have never been able to get into this. I'm sure people are gasping full. You love it. Well, I cried too much and I had to stop watching it. I was crying every time I saw it, so I just thought I can't do this. I think he's got a nice storytelling touch, and I think he juggles a lot of plotlines adroitly. Yes, in this it is. Of emotional and is in and tries very hard to pull at your heartstrings. Yes, with some success and other, maybe just a little bit too much. I love the cast a love on Oscar, Isaac Livia wild manual. Take in Libya cook is in it audio Livia? Yes. Antonio Bandera. Oh, man. Benning Samuel Jackson, f. some throwaway roles in it. It's all about an innocent about the connective tissue in our lives and inner is a theme about this. I thought about this origin, something that did speak to me how something terrible that happens in your life can lead to the most amazingly wonderful thing and it's can I bore you guys with my theory with my personal experience with this, you know, I was kicked out of high school, read up, kick them to toss out of boarding school. It was the most shameful embarrassing moment my life. Yeah, it really it haunts me to this Denmark, but it's we're gonna. I'm gonna show you how, sorry, they'll be south show you. And my best friend who was my roommate at boarding school because I get kicked out and I didn't go to jail or Harvard. I ended up going to Denison which is still doing school full screen. I would not have gone to the same college as my best friend from high school ended up room together all through college. So it roommates for like two or three years in boarding school all through college. Then I convinced him to move to Washington DC and we moved with live newsgroup house with me and him and four women. Now we, the one rule we had was that nobody can date each anybody in the house because we don't want it to blow up. So we live. We all live together for about three or four years. One of the women that live there and my best friend in Robertson Robertson mortgage. They fell in love the day. We moved out, they announced that they were dating horrible. They have three of the most beautiful children in the world cry at his fortieth birthday party surprise. Part of the invited another friend of ours climber. Okay. And he and they introduced her to their great friend Martha, they fell in love. They got married. They had a beautiful. Child. I can honestly draw this line of, I don't kick get kicked out none of those things happen. So I can say, movie movie, fix you up another one of their friends. But it's like if. So I look at San Francisco. No, no, no, no, no. But I look at this and I'm like, you know what? I do subscribe to this philosophy in life, but the thing about life itself is the bad things or so bad that I found it very difficult to get past those little manipulative. Yes, so bad and the payoff at the end. And I could see where they were coming little manipulate yet. It just the payoff didn't out balance likes the buffalo things in there is a, they touch on three generations. I admire. I think if you're going to talk about family talking about three generations is very important that moved me. It moved me as well. The way the film is constructed. It's a little bit of a non deterrent Tino and they've actually referenced him throughout the move. These beginning of the movie is done in chapters and there's a lot of like fresh bath, flashbacks and stuff from different perspectives and alternate stuff. And so I. I was very impressed with the way the movie was constructed and that idea that he's building on like you just talked about. Yeah, is from life. Yeah. I have a letter from my great grandmother describing her life, and they moved to Texas from Kentucky Fried act of the civil war. And when they got to the Red River, you know, she talks about the wagon thing and everything. Her mother would not get on the steamboat because she was afraid of it and they were supposed to settle in Galveston. And if they had, they would've all been killed the arm of nineteen hundred storm that happened in one thousand nine hundred ad. So I wouldn't be here. That kind of movie, isn't it? Yes. So it's it has been those kids wouldn't be there. They had a Grand Canyon. Reminding reminding me of that is that I can think of the title. I do love that when somebody says to adopt the kid, right? Yeah, she does. Right. And so I guess my take away from this and here's the thing I woke up and it was still on my mom. You guys are talking about it, but I don't listen. Go see audience, walked out kind of mix, and that's how I am. I mostly women in the audience. I'll probably watch it again just because I want to dive into some of the stuff they did. But again, the painful moments were almost to pain devastatingly devastating. You have to be older to get what he's talking about. Maybe maybe I am old, but you know, I think arch, but I think. Third of older older people. I think in my experience I have lots of friends in their eighties. They don't wanna see, you know, like they've lived through this stuff. Do not wanna pay good money and go and and feel sad. Like that's a delicate balance right there music or no, it's a wonderful life is certainly touches and musically there's a Bob Dylan threat that we've throughout the whole thing, which I probably should have played that song for us today. I'll just tipping my hand. It's not. It's not the soundtrack song of the day, but I did kind of like that and listen, I am a huge fan of Oscar Isaac and live your wild and their chemistry would you? Should you like their chemistry together? Yeah, I like her a lot. She's really good and he's having a one. He's he's been in a couple of dead movies lately, but I still love watching. I do dangers personality. Yeah, gotta have, yeah, Lewin, Dave. So let's see at the movies of we don't like Fahrenheit, eleven nine except icon. Of forgive it. We do like house with a clock in its walls. We recommend blaze, oh, and the children act. I didn't get it plug in for the children. I'd put a plug in for that. Emma. Thomson Stanley Tucci. Oh. British judge smart. Oh yes. It's an adaptation of the McEwan novel where those people MO Thompson instead of going. Yes. Young man. Stanley Tucci who I think is super talented. His name's gonna come up later in the show for me. For for those Brito files like me out there. Go see it. It's really fun. So mixed on the house, and there's a character named Nigel who's really funny. Mixed on life itself and positive on blaze and the children's act. And again, Hornets gets all the good ones. We get the crumbs from her table now it's an accident. I just couldn't make those screenings because for reasons into later, there are movies that I just I just decided I. Well, there's some though. It's like, okay, I don't want to, but you know what? Okay, I didn't wanna see mama. Mia to there, you don't wanna see crazy, rich, Asians, and people look at me with their jaws on the ground and tell them what are your favorite movies this year? And I list those two at the top of this. They're like, really? I'm like, I can't tell you walked out of their short narrowly happy and loves movies where you can follow in today's reviews at Washington Post dot com. I post reviews at arch Campbell dot net. Send us your thoughts to our Email address, which is at the movies, twenty two g mail. And we come to you from chatter the bar and restaurant, and Wisconsin and Jennifer in northwest Washington DC, where we are proud to chatter at chatter to great place to eat. It is please come by any by two dinners at once. Speaking of Jeter I've heard you chattering about your meeting with Jane fund bad. That's why I couldn't go to those screenings this week. I had a good excuse. Jane Fonda will rightly might get out of bonds school free now another up and comer. I think really hasn't. I think you've got it got what it takes. I'm gonna just say it right now we talking about, I'm going to get ahead of myself. You were talking about the show that she does with only rice and Frankie. My new mom loves that show. I was binging it. I should have been watching it all along because I've, I've interviewed lily Tomlin over the years and adore her, and I've been meaning to watch it. And then when I was new that I would be interviewing Jane Fonda, I thought this is it. I gotta watch it. And now it's so charming. It's just wonderful. It's so funny and smart documentary on her. And there's a documentary of the reason I was talking. There's an HBO documentary call, Jane Fonda in five, and it is. Is so wonderful. It's a woman named Susan lacy, who did the Steven Spielberg documentary or if you had a chance to catch up with that. She's so good at these are Tissot biographies, but with Fonda, it's really not an artistic. What she's done is it is in five acts and the first four all men. So the first chapters about her relationship with her father, and then it's the three husbands, Roger Vadym, and Tom Hayden and Ted Turner, and I thought God that's so weird because you know, but it's really a way to explore her becoming herself in the fifth chapters Jane. And it's really the story of how she came into her own as a woman and then as an artist. But mostly just as a human being, and it's a fascinating film and really emotional. You were talking about the importance of three generations. A lot of it is her process of looking back, not just at her own parents, but their parents and kind of what formed, what. Informed her childhood and her formative years, and then how that played out with her relationships with men, but also with Roan children. So there's deep emotional work going on in this movie as well as just hitting the high hitting the usual points of acting and activism and the things we know her for. But she's so revealing her family background, her childhood. It was tough, very, very, very, very tough, and she's incredibly candid about that and for and also very humane. I think about that in terms of just sort of understanding her parents, they did the best they could. They were flawed and it did have reverberations that were unfortunate. But you know, I think I can already hear half of our listeners calling her Hanoi Jane and I and I know that that's it'll harder for the rest of her days. She has apologized early and often for that. It's probably her biggest regret. She's apologized. I think quite elegantly for it, really and tick has taken full accountability responsibility for it. And I think that's another kind of. She's really shown at a time when accountability seems to be sure more important than ever. You know, she has fessed up to her own with steaks and owned them, and forged ahead and kind of built a whole new last act of her life. I find her to be really inspiring. When you say five acts though, I'm also thinking of her film career started up exactly new. Then she was a sex symbol, and then she morphed into this brilliant actress. That's right. The other few years ago I watched the shoot horses don't, and that was pivotal and they talk about this in that film. They don't really talk about are acting. And when I when I met, I met her in New York yesterday and I asked her, I said, you know, the one thing that this film doesn't really get into your craft, the dangerous. How did you become the dangerous personality? And she said, you know, it's easy for me to talk about everything except acting and she admitted that it's never been number one for her. She's taken long breaks when she married Ted Turner. She didn't think she'd ever. Act again, she didn't care. She didn't miss it and it was the same same when she was an activist with Hayden. She was interested in being an actor. You know, she was whatever acting she did exactly was to support the activism habit. And she said to this day, activism to find her more than acting. But on the other hand, she says she takes it more seriously than ever. And it really does come out with things like Gracie and Frankie. I think she's delivering great performances in that show. I mean, they're comedic, but they're coming from really grounded place of very very, it's not just light and fluffy. It's coming from a really deep place and she does this drop the documentary drops on Sunday and story about her. My little column with her is gonna come out tomorrow in the post. So it was a Emmys and cable and streaming. And I guess we should go onto the Emmys. I didn't see that either. So like I wanna hear I wanna just sit back and listen. I did not see the show because I was sitting in the uptown theater. Okay. Waiting for Michael show up. The only thing is Sandra didn't win, and I'm a little bit. Myth have not heard one good thing about that. Broadcast. Just tell you, I was, I forget what I was watching. I was watching something forgotten that it was on my cell phone star. Blowing up with one Tony Kornheiser and he was like, are you kidding me? This is the most atrocious show I've ever seen. He's like the guys were hosting and I forget their names. It's Colin Jost and I forget Michael Chang. They do. That sound live and I've seen them on life full at that. Okay. I don't watch. I disagree. I don't think they're great at that. That's just my opinion. But a lot of people are with you. I might be in shape Saturday Night Live, and that's the only part of that I watch. I'm not I, I'm not a huge fan of theirs, and this was not the platform for them. It was too dry and it was it was too timid and it just what I saw of it. The most entertaining thing were the accepts in speeches, Jeff Daniels headed terrific acceptance, speech, we thank his horse and everybody's. He said, no kids when you're out there and you get off the part and they say, can you ride a horse? Don't lie. 'cause they're going to put you on horses going to be the Kentucky Derby, this great speech about that. And it started off with Henry Winkler. He had a great Bill hater on. Yes, it was a great day for vary, which was terrific. Yeah, here's the awards game of thrones your your thing. One, outstanding drama. Although I would like to have seen the Americans, I would rather see in the Americans. Most people think Americans was going to Matthew. Reese one, which of these show the marvelous MRs Mazel Brian's lead actress in a drama. We wanted carry Russell yet, but it's clarify, I want for that. Sandra would have either one I was appointed, Jody calmer. Didn't get nominated. That's a scandal that it is. Oh, she's yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Mashing rise for the Americans. You mentioned him and Bill hater for berry and went Harry Winkler for berry and the assassination of Jeanene versus actually, which is one of bunch didn't. It. Girl. Maureen. That's right. Yes, very excited for standing limited series. I'm trying to find that on demand. I miss. I should have. I want to catch up with so weird because thinks that in the end, all the stuff is brilliant. But I was like, I lived through this like Chevy really watching dramatization of this. It was something that Ryan Murphy sprinkles his magic does. I know makes it like a something completely new nuances. You've never picked up on before. That was a bizarre story as ankle Cunanan. And yeah, it was just a weird. I remember that. So I'm hoping to catch up with so show itself was underwhelming bring the terrible EMMY show. What does this mean for the Oscars? Oh, 'cause last year at, you know, and the guy, the guy who won he won the producing EMMY for the Oscars and then propose right? It's almost like you know what you're doing to the show right now. The red with your proposal, which was aggressive, right? The us cours Oscars last year was also tear. I thought it was terrible too. Show, and then there's this hard to get these things. Right. And it's a sense to like to live. But it's also a television show, and those are very at. That's why I don't watch the Kennedy Center honors. It's got to be one of the other. It's like you're either creating an experience that's fun for the people in the room, or you're creating show. Television different things. I still have a problem and I love movies and a love actors directors and everything, but it's still like we're like the most fabulously wealthy people in the world, how great our way. And we Pat ourselves on the back. And I'm like, you know, there's a lot of people out there. They're doing really hard great work and there's no recognition and their way of acknowledging that is to do those patronizing skits with like normal people throw them and it's unseen. There's too many awards. And that's the other thing. That's just too many, you know. So what does this mean for the Oscars? They keep it shorter. I know they're on. They're on the hot seat. I mean, that's why they did this whole stupid thing with the popular if they wanna cut time out, then cut those skits. Skits also cut the songs. Your presentation because those all take up an entire segment and they do all that's five. I think that they do throughout it. It's always beautiful, but it's like, you know what? That some fact that we could trim from my and I'll say also they are. There's always a couple of montages that could their way way too much Chuck workman montage as much as anybody, but Chuck God bless seriously. He's great and companies. Great. But you know, shows we remember that Bob Hope helmed and Carson helm. They did a monologue and then we did the show because that was what it was, which is in wards. It's in a club basically, like a country club, it's like a private club? Yes, doing their own little ritual and we're eavesdropping on it. And now it was stage, but now it's been reversed in the cart before the horse. And now you know. Exactly. It's and it I would. You know, that's why people ask me g go the Oscars. I can't think of anything worse. I would hate to be in that room, I will or through all that stuff or it would just be torture. The only time you'll go is when my first movie is both you guys would be my guest. Good. All right, good. We go to the parties after. Absolutely, absolutely. Speaking of parties. I know you wanna talk about your visit to. Chance. And I've been gone so much. I haven't had a chance of the highlights of my summer this year. Ago and far away? No, I was always heard about it. I've loved me. This has been, I swear to God. It's been a bucket list item for me. The Chautauqua institution in upstate New York on beautiful lake Chautauqua this very storied place of learning of spiritual values and and sort of self improvement and learning and sharing ideas and recreation and being in nature. They have a summer program where they kind of dedicate a week to a subject. So it could be this year was Russia one week, and the week that I went up was for documentaries, they dedicated entire week documentaries. Ken burns came and spoke on the Monday, and then his writers and producers stayed on Tuesday and did some more lectures and talks. And then I got to deliver kind of the hump day speech on Wednesday. About kind of documentaries and about how I kind of took my book as a jumping off point about how do we watch them and and then did a couple of q and as with filmmakers the the next two days in this place, I sorta got it is a magical, beautiful exquisite place. I was greeted very warmly by Jeff and gave fallen, be Jeff soc- eel. They are loyal listeners. I'm sure they're listening right now. As a matter of fact, why have an Email from gay you? Do Mark just listed as podcast. My husband and I sent the box of that. All of you really the boxes Zingermann 's that's our favorite deli Arbor. But the box is just the box and we open it up and there's all kinds of wonderful things in there. And they sent a very lovely note land. So so gay, Jeff, thank you so love listening and thank you for doing. It was wonderful. It was really neat, we should. We should go up there. The movement goes back to the nineteenth century believe so I should know that typically, yes tonight, yes, and they're Chautauqua movement. It was national. There were Chautauqua events all over the country, but this is really the the load, the motherload and the the mothership, if you will, and it's just this quaint, beautiful cottages, beautiful built environments, gorgeous lake woods. It's kind of I don't even it's like summer camp for secular, you know, secular humanists or something, but but not secular because there's a strong spiritual element executable, but it's just gorgeous. It was. It was really wonderful and I want to thank everybody for welcoming me. So warmly it was there were some little extras in the crowd. Oh, wow. Ooh. Did you speak with? Who did you q. a. i. q. Nate with Rebecca Kameda who did of wonderful. She did one of my favorite short documentaries call the God is the bigger Elvis about Dorothy Malone becoming a nun. Oh, that was an HBO. But then she did. I'm trying. I'm blanking on the name of the movies. It was up there. It was not nuclear homefront atomic homefront about radioactive waste in Missouri, the community's efforts to try to clean it up. It's absolutely stunning. She's a great filmmaker. And then grace Lee who did a wonderful documentary called American revolutionary, the grace Lee Boggs story about an activist in Detroit. And so we had to wonderful QNA sessions talking about their work and how they approach it, and they got to in everybody got to see their movies, alley McGraw. Was there, oh much was there because she had done a voice over of a movie about Mabel dodge Luhan. And so she came along with that film and we had a lot of fun and she talked about, I mean, gorgeous gorgeous. So we had a good time. It was really special. Speaking of that. We should mention our friend, Chuck Todd's documentary indeed is coming up in a couple of weeks, right? Second week in October. There's some good stuff there and the double exposure festival's coming to. There's a lot of action. Speaking of exposures Mark, what is our? What's our song of the day? I told arches I tell them every week you're gonna get this one. Right? And then I've flounder, let's take a couple of seconds, but I think you'll get it. Okay. Any guesses. Oh, come on. You gotta get it now. Right? Not for the people screaming at home? Yes, this is the same song WPRO p. in Cincinnati. Oh. Oh. I couldn't place it. I'm playing this because on September eighteenth nineteen seventy eight, which hard for me to believe forty years ago this week WKNO p television show made its debut. Wow, and there was a movie that came out right around the same time called FM which a lot of people thought FM was the precursor to w p, but they're actually as a lot of times thing happens, they were being produced at the same time and it's funny in the movie they the sales guy says the DJ's or we're going to sell army spots. You got the army is going to be an advertiser and the DJ's all say, we're not doing that man and they barricade the studio, and then the owner is out there and he sees the passion, the DJ so fires, the sales manager, and he says, don't worry, we won't have to run those commercials. Let me tell you folks something. I've worked in radio for an awfully time sales runs everything right. If they sell ads and you won't run it, you'll get fired rust me every single time. But the show, again is a guy that worked in radio. And I came to it late. I started in the late nineties, and but I knew a lot of people that worked in the seventies and eighties and this nail that from the sales manager, the news guide the the morning, Johnny doctor, Johnny fever, you know, all that stuff and Venus, Flytrap. They nailed the personalities for this sob- really and it's, it's, it's it's, you know, you can't really. I don't know, I, it wouldn't really translate today, but it's, you know, you go back. It's a slice of time that you go back and look at. So make me very sad because so much radio is automated and radio is not even remotely the same that used to be it all started when they said now big companies can own up like fifty million and so you lost the individuality from all these great radio stations cross the country. So that came in right after that happened. Everyone's like, well, you miss the big party Mark. It was really fun couple years ago, but it but you know, working radio, especially back then. I think it would have been great fun. Yeah. So it's just, you know, that was that was what we had today. Wow, signed an awful song by the way, probably tell you who did this because I'm supposed to provide critical commentary like MAC Davis or some. No, it's a Safra aqua or is it hold on music musical themes composed by Tom wells lyrics by series creator, Hugh wells Wilson performed by Steve Carlisle. It is the Pitta me in my mind of dreadful softball in the seventies. So there you go. So so what kind of Email are we get? Oh, we got a bunch emails here. Hold on. Where is all right. So this is from Joe Cecchi in I always get to pronounce this correctly. Is it done yet in or doing it in New Zealand? Waits me. We're just going to say from New Zealand, Joe, I apologize with done done some in high as they say there are new plots are, there are no new plots in Hollywood. Boy meets girl. Boy loses girl, boy gets girl back. I think you miss another. A star is born. Look alike. The great limelight with Charlie Chaplin player. Oh, of course. Showman helps young new incomes to a sad inning. You also talked about the couple. I read the Jack Lemmon bought the rights to the film because on us with art Carney, and they argued so much off stage. He didn't want any possibility. The Cardi would be on the film. I don't know if that's what I want to believe. It's true. Last week when you were gone, Jason freely was here and we started going through all the question was how many remakes of stars born? Have there been right? Of course we went to the one this year the one in seventy six fifty four thirty one thirty, seven, seven and then a nineteen thirty one. What price Hollywood. I said we may. Let's throw in the artist and Jason will hell. Let's throw in funny girl and throwing Thailand. And what did he throw in? It was time line. Well yeah, good, you know. So that's part of my original response to seen the trailer for the new story. And I'll say this all the time remix. Why are they doing it and when they do it right, you're like glad they did that. Well, and Cuper kind of references that in the movie when he says there's only twelve notes and it's how you play him. Right? I mean, that's same. Y'all. It's not. It's not the song, it's the singer or something like that. There's a scene where she's walking up a ramp early in the movie and she starts singing. But what she singing is the verse that leads into somewhere over the rainbow that that was my tribute as you tomorrow. God bless and you know, there's some. There's some little echoes share that. I admire. I think I think it's important that important move this from James MacGregor in Mandeville, Louisiana. Jan who call you Jimmy, even if nobody calls you Jimmy, Jimmy McGregor hearing you discuss both. Burt Reynolds and Christopher Reeve in last week show reminded me of a great under the radar movie from nineteen eighty eight called switching channels. In this cable news producer, star reporter and ex wife. Kathleen Turner isn't games Reeve who appears to be the model fiance until his debilitating, hilarious. Fear of heights comes into the picture all-stars. Incredible Henry Gibson as a convict do for electric chair, yada, yada. It's a really fun movie and you're probably saying, ooh, yeah, right about now is the memories flood anyway, love the show all the recommendations you guys provide every single week. Thank you. I appreciate I remember that movie, although I remember not thinking that it really reflected television news as I knew it, then that's the, but what's the one with with with Matthau and Jack Lemmon. Yourselves for cable news? No, no. It's a news because this is also the third time it's done. Oh, and limited. Oh yes. And I thought when you see Lemmon and Matthau you're like, I'm sorry. This is the one for me because it's just brilliant. The one with Kathleen Turner, Burt Reynolds. It's good. It's good, but it's it was kind of it was sort of the front page? Yes, I think that's, I think. Yeah, I think they've done that three times. Now Carol Burnett also in front page and his girl Friday front p. That's the one that most people I watched the original a few years ago because I have nothing to do sit on the couch and see what's on, and it's a little hard to watch nineteen thirty one at off Montjeu and. The guy who was in. O'Brien, what's his name? I don't know. Brian's Edmond O'Brien was when of your O'Brien, the never mind this. Not now I'm not gonna Pat O'Brien, Padova. Somebody said that Mark said, ROY in then. But it was Pat O'Brien O'Brien and add off Montjeu a little tough to watch though a little hard to watch nineteen thirty one. Think Friday's the dodgers. One, that's the tax, and that's what we got. Please folks. You got something to say you wanna ask a question comment when let us know about a movie, you think as ever please citizen Email Archana the mill earlier, but it's at the movies, twenty two at g mail dot com. Last year, I went up to Broadway to see the front page with Nathan lane, and, oh my God, it was that sounds like heaven. The cast just full of wonderful cameos John Goodman. Oh. I love the movies and everything, but there's nothing. Nothing. Nothing better than good live theater experience. I mean, there's just it's just magical when when it's magical goosebumps. What what should we recommend for this weekend? I've got one. I've got one. China's. This is from not that long ago. Believe it was Emma stone's coming out movie easier. I love these this making around again arming. Yeah, it's just very, it's very funny and I wanna pay and I love him stone and she's brilliant in this, but I wanna pay a special attention to Stanley Tucci and Patricia Clarkson who play her parents. They are so unbelievably great in this and the scene where they're going to watch a movie and Stanley Tucci sitting there with the two movies like is at the bucket list, or is it Rambo wanted to not Graham bucket list of this? What is what is the most important? It's going to be the bucket list hunting. After we watch this, we're gonna cross off the bucket list from our bucket, so damn good in a love Stanley Tucci, Kelly. Just great. So good one mar. Thank you. Love. I'm going to bring up Glenn Close in the wife just so that you won't forget that it is out there. Oh, yeah. You guys like this, right, wonderful piece of acting and and it will be wonderful to see her nominated for an Oscar for the wife. Green. Just remember that it's out there. I think just continuing the hawk Assange I'm gonna just do. I'll do a twofer. I'm gonna say, if you can get if Juliet naked is still maleable to see still around really do. Go is just good good time and then go see Blaise good and bask in the greatness of youth and hawk, oh, I need to recommend another movie. It might be a theater near you. I don't think it's here in DC, might be on demand where you are, but little Italy is out, and that's during my friend, Adam Ferrara. All right. So, yeah, it's it's like a modern takeoff on Romeo and Juliet. It opening here. I looked for. Ford. I didn't see around here, but I saw him tweet out that it's opening around the country in various places. So if you see it go see it supports a good guy, and it's funny, it's funny. Cool. So how should we. All right. I'll I, you know what you guys go. I I'm still working. You're giving me. Give me nothing. This thought I'd repeated. Don't worry. We won't have to run those commercial. Problem for this podcast currently. I will quote arch Campbell, not speaking of exposure. I forgot. I didn't write anything down. So I've come cropper yet again, I'm sorry that you. Back, I missed. I'm gonna go sincere on guy. I really missed you. So there.

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#246: True/False, Pt. 2  Dick Johnson is Dead

The Next Picture Show

1:10:38 hr | 7 months ago

#246: True/False, Pt. 2 Dick Johnson is Dead

"Thanks to masterclass purse supporting the next picture show you can find hundreds of video lessons from today's most brilliant minds available anytime anywhere on IOS android desktop apple TV at Amazon. Fire TV get fifteen percent off your annual all access pass at masterclass dot com slash picture show support for this podcast comes from Microsoft teams. Now, there are more ways to be a team with Microsoft teams bring everyone together in a new virtual room collaborate live building ideas on the same page and see more of your team onscreen at once learn more at Microsoft Dot com slash teams. Keep the line between the past. Visa someone out of the past. And turned take session of. The. The Path but the. Is Not through with us Welcome. Back to the next picture, show a movie that we podcast a classic fill. In the way it shaped our thoughts on recent release I'm Keith Phipps here again with Scott Tobias genevieve Kofsky and Tasha. Robinson. In Our last episode, we talked about Orson Wells nineteen seventy-three film F for fake a not quite documentary about forgers authenticity and the meaning of art. This week we're bringing in Dick Johnson is dead in which Cureton Johnson documents that kind of her father with occasional breaks to stages death depict afterlife in Heaven Dick Jaspers dead is Kirsten Johnson's second film's director but. Like. It's predecessor the work of someone with a long history making movies her first royal effort. Camera Person Wolf together scraps footage from her years as a documentary cinematographer into memoir made up of out takes from throughout her career with Dick Johnson is dead she pushes the autobiographical instinct even further with her father psychiatrist Richard Johnson is I noticed with dementia. She decides to turn his decline into project by staging his death for the camera with his enthusiastic participation. What follows is a rumination memory movie illusions death at what remains after work on we'll talk over after the brain. Idea that I might ever lose this man. Too much to bear. His my dad. Let's. Start. Walking to me that's fantastic. I suggested we make a movie about him dying. He said, yes. She kills me. Multiple Times Act. Resurrected Yeah. Now it's upon us the beginning of his disappearance. Hate most about my memory loss is it hurts people's feelings. That you woke in the middle of the mate last night. Yeah. Fully dressed to remember any of that. What can we do that? I don't know. Everybody has sort of prepared because everybody dies. Too, much for that. So did Johnston's dead everybody movie a lot a lot a lot what about that what everybody else I mean I'd seen this film at true false. It was one of the last things I saw and when last conversations I had with her before everything shut down. And when? I saw it I was thinking there's just no possible way. I'm going to see a film that I like more this year so far that's held though I guess a lot of movies have not come out to challenge it but I'm obviously a pretty huge fan of it I think it's kind of a magical experience in that it is a film that I think Whoa. Phyllis with thread to watch you know this idea of Kirchen Johnston filming her father's decline but she's turned it in situations, spun it in such a way to where it's frequently. Joyous and Fun and palatable thoughtful in you know and also on top of everything else a marvelous deconstruction of nonfiction filmmaking. So I think it's a rich film and emotional and it's like at the time I thought it was like this is like an obvious curious Tommy film that like my parents could see it'd be fine. So I'm a big Fan. If we had already done close up, it would make a good parent with close up. Yeah. No arguments here big data's as many as a big fan of camera person and I like how this feels like camera person like a very personal film but in a totally different way and using just totally different methods. But that are still very much about the tools of filmmaking but there is also the factor of Richard Johnson himself who is just such A. This movie wouldn't have worked if he was a different sort of man than he is like it comes through in every frame even though he is you know kind of deteriorating over the course of the movie as far as his dementia goes, but he never really loses at least that we see that sort of essential. I don't know spark whatever you. WanNa call it. I think compelled her to use him in this way in this film and that compelled him to say, yes to participating in this film like it's very, very extraordinary thing that she asked of her father and that he did so willingly and seemingly happily you know normally that's the kind of thing that you would put into the realm of extra textual but that's not a line that matters with the smoothie i. don't think but yet I'm there's a lot to talk about this movie. I want to hear what others think about it, but you will you will hear no no disagreement from this quarter about it being a great film. I don't know how rationally are critically I can discuss this film. It hit me a way too hard. I don't know that I recommend it for people with parents or people who love their parents or people who are watching their parents age lake I. This is this is a great phone for six year olds with young healthy vibrant parents and anybody after that I'm not sure about. It's a lot. It's. You're watching somebody slowly die on camera and you're watching his daughter cry about it and talked to him about it and process it in real time. You're watching the process of her challenging, both of their limits and both of their experiences in both of their understanding and it's Pretty Daring. But why is it I want to say rock and then at the same time, you have these just like lambeth fantasy sequences that are exactly the opposite of that. That are these just strange lake kurita level fantasies and it's very hard for me candidly put it all together or a really address it in any sort of thinking way I dreaded going into this movie a little bit and I came out kind of thinking what am I doing if I recommend this to people, I had to talk to another film critic about it today some one who did lose a father relatively recently in his this clearly is still very emotional about it and You know we had to talk about it in terms of. The kind of need to be prepared going in, and you kind of need to be in the mind space for it. You kind of need to give yourself some breath afterwards before you sit down to talk about critically. It's it's definitely not like a late. You know Sunday afternoon. What are we gonNa Watch with the kids kind of movie it's it's it's painful and frank and deny already say, Darren I. Think it's pretty daring as I usually do when I hear some of the festival everyone loves I don't read that much about it and I just kind of new about and avoided spoilers in the one I went to watch it on on Netflix. Do the sort of very concise netflix subscription with the booze about is like. and. They focused on the whole faking the deaths aspect of it or stimulating the death. Doesn't really sound like something that personal camera person would make and also sounds frankly little tacky and then you see it in the film and its it's remarkably sunny understand why it's there and understand that it is in a strange but totally understandable way. Allows him to process what they're going to make in a way to kind of mix. But also deals at the same time. There's a lot going on in this movie in a movie. I would I would happily I know is an intense experience but there's a lightness to it as well and as movie I would happily watch again it's it's not something I. would dread a second view enough and do you think it's tacky though I think it's deliberately Tacky I. Think he kind of revels in the tacky. I mean there's a sequence where they fake her father's death via at like keystone cops level of construction worker with a giant board with a nail sticking out of it gets distracted and accidentally swings into her father's throat as he's walking along a sidewalk in New York and then he sprays arterial blood everywhere lake. That's silly. I mean you're watching somebody bleed out and die in public due to a tragic accident but you're also watching something that's a little bit grand guignol and a little bit as a keystone cops. I think that there is a tackiness to it and the vision of Heaven. I think there's a tackiness to that as well. It's downright gleeful it. It certainly extremely intended but that doesn't mean it's not tacky. It just means it's intentionally tacky moving either the dance sequence with with his his late wife or you know quote unquote late wife is that's incredibly moving stuff and so beautifully. Shot at all of that stuff just shot in this like super slow motion, super high def where you can just appreciate every line and every aspect of the choreography and the physicality of the dancers at that battle sequences pretty remarkable a lot of ways and the expression of a Dick Johnson's face to his remarkable presence to I. Think to be a good psychiatrist you may be have to have just. Empathy. But he just has. It's very open openness about it which I also kind of pick up I feel like as part of. At least secure. Johnson. We get know via her films part of her personality as well. Yeah. I was reading some interviews with her prior to this recording and she thinks of herself as a funny person. You know she in this piece she says, you know there was one laugh and camera person I was like we made an hour and a half long in there was one laugh. So I was really committed to there being humor in this film and You know I think it does function is a comedy and yes, there is certainly tragedy there. But I've cried this movie in Maimi emotional. But I ultimately came out of it feeling like I had had on balance of more joyful experience than sorrowful one in again like I said I think Richard Johnson. Himself is a huge part of that and in another interview with our friend Rachel Hander she actually put this is actually Rachel's words in her introduction she says. Here are two people who love entrust each other. So deeply that they'll joyfully confront death together before it's even arrived and I think just the the connection between them and the same paddock Oh nece between them as far as this project it wasn't that it made it not sad but it made it more palatable for me I guess or made me you know it made me sad in a in a happy way I cried this movie the way I love. To cry at movies you know we talk I've talked about being a movie cryer before and most of this movie I was at some stage of of teary you know but it never felt like it was overwhelming me or too much. It's bittersweet. Yeah and I also, Kinda WanNa go back to the staging of the deaths and then being as Tasha said tacky or these sort of absurd and and they are to a certain extent but they are also all. Grounded in a sort of real his you know again with in that interview with Rachel she says, you know we started working with. NETFLIX'S I had a budget ahead of time for the first time in my life psychic. Think really big I imagine you travel the globe put my dad on an ice floe and float him out go to Hong Kong and have him jump out of the building and catch on fire. Then it became totally obvious that. My Dad couldn't do that. He's a fragile eighty, six year old who doesn't have tos danger of tripping and falling in I realized all of that was escapist fantasy ground level falls in fact, are the most frequently that elderly people die and so the deaths that happen in this movie, he falls down the stairs you know obviously getting walloped on the street is a little more heightened, but it could easily happen. They're all very tied to the place. He is in that moment like the board with a nail in it comes shortly after he's moved to new. York, to live with her and we also have that fake out of him getting hit by a car. You know in these are dangers to elderly person that are very tied to the place. He is. Now just as falling down the stairs is very tied to the place he was leaving, which was the house where he lived alone so. Obviously the dots themselves away their stage they're done. So in a way that they don't feel quote unquote real in a visual sense necessarily but they think are intended to feel real in terms of who Richard of the life that Richard Johnson is is leading I. Think there's also I mean there's that element of fantasy at play to the in that. Those deaths are all quick deaths I mean both of Kitchen Johnston's parents were long goodbyes were. Where parents were young mother had Alzheimer's FA father has dementia still alive by the way? Yeah. No as of today article that posted today Dig Johnson incidentally is currently safely stationed in a minimally occupied home for dementia in Maryland. So she wanted enough well, and also this is, of course, an attempt to make him live forever in movies right so there's that touching element to i. think the ending is just like astonishing like the way that plays out I. It's just so moving and so his. His his That was something that. Before I'm talking very that was rough I thought you meant the the. The the closet of timber coming out being there But Yeah No of course of course that whole sequence I mean you talk about just purely heartbreaking or? Moments that is pretty overwhelming but but it's punctuated with that horn. Horn. Which is probably the biggest laugh in the movie and it's a laugh you feel weird about. All the laughs in this movie are kind of laughs you feel weird about I think intentionally. So in that I think is just peak. Weird laugh. I. Think it's meaningful that that's the laugh where she pans around the crowd and finds other people that are looking dismayed or fighting back laughter at she's she has kind of queuing to you like, yes, this is ridiculous. It's it's OK laugh but then she cuts to the that man ray Dick Johnson's best friend just sobbing his heart out off to the side during the course of this funeral and there were a couple of moments in this film where I wondered like is this expletive is this Any attempt to push the boundaries as she pushed the boundaries too far, and one of those moments came when she admits that she doesn't know where her father's boundaries are anymore. She doesn't know when she's gone too far when it becomes an appropriate and she also says, he'll do anything for me. He will do anything I asked him to do and that just made me wonder at times like. Are there points that goatee far. There's the point where he's standing there covered in blood and he says this is worse than my heart attack was the hardest part. there. There are points where I questioned like is this elder abuse I? He's a good caretaker hover father meet me all segment with Ray just in particular I just had me wondering lake where is somebody comforting him? You know whereas somebody helping him through this and it might have happened one second after the camera cut away. But you know you're left with that image of a man. disconsolately weeping over something that hasn't happened yet, and you know that not only is he suffering now he's going to suffer through all of this again at some time in the future if he outlives deck, it's it's hard to watch. But the thing is like it has happened I think the point of that funeral is that like in Johnson has said this in interviews like she's not going to have a funeral for Dick Johnson when he passes that was his funeral because these people had already experienced like the sort of long goodbye of her mother his wife and you know at at that point his dementia, it is already a point of fact. Everyone knew what was coming and it's it was a good. Bye was a good. Bye to the Richard Johnson they knew and I agree with you that I think ray is probably the point in the film where I feel like it edges closest to exploit taste I have to. Believe that she cleared that with him but she also has spoken to the realization of needing to put herself in this movie like you can't just put this all of this sort of emotional load onto your father and and leave yourself out of it. You have to put your voice in it and speak to your emotions in your comp in the complications your feeling otherwise. I think that exploit hated feeling would've come through even more strongly I. Think it's tempered by Johnson kind of engaging with it and engaging with win. It's hard and when it feels like it was a bad idea and she's not sure if what she's doing is is bright but in the end I think that you know what she comes away with is like such A. Beautiful Portrait of her dad at this stage of his life you know, and then if you extrapolate to who he was before, we are actually spending time with him. I think it's a gift to her father. I think that just kind of negates any discomfort around exploitation for me. Personally, it'd be. It's a joyful collaboration for one and the one thing I always think about too is that she doesn't have footage of her mother before her mother was lost essentially to Alzheimer's and. This is this is a chance to capture her father in his essence. You wonderful sense of this very positive thoughtful carrying. Man and and how much the father daughter you know mean to each other and this is something that she can have treasurer forever this whole experience and be able to share with us. It's fantastic. Weird like it'd be. You know obviously palatable I guess is the word. I mean I guess we're we're Tasha kind of departs from the rest of us a little bit. But given the film's project given what it's trying to do with the reality of the film is I think it does so much to try to. Give you a sense of joy and fond in Whimsey and kind of a bittersweet quality that keeps it from being dirge I. You know but but again, it has to do with your personal response. I'M NOT GONNA. You know obviously minimize Tushes here clearly as also movie about somebody WHO's Dying going through a lot of really tough things and you know the daughter is having to experience all that too. So that's all there and is certainly. this is the film punches you in the Gut to all right while there's plenty more to talk about it but we're talking about it in the context of the previous film impaired. The swift effort fake will talk that over after the break. What's it giving take masterclass for supporting this episode the next picture show with masterclass you can learn from the world's best minds anytime anywhere and at your own pace and a lot. 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Next picture show listener, you get fifteen percent off the annual all access pass Goto masterclass dot com slash picture show that's masterclass dot com slash picture show for fifty percents off masterclass. So. This is what I'm going to stick your neck. This is where the blood will actually come out of this is going to go along here. and. All of this is going to go back down through your wardrobe on here and then I pump the blood under there was forces it to just shoot. Rare From the makeup song. By real blood. Crazy that? Never, thought you just explain to me how you doing. Face alive. Transformation? They don't want to good. I like my blood are accustomed to it. You can hang onto all of your blood drop of your blood will fill his plan. You feel comfortable with. that. Great I would say just keep saying the words fake blood that's only all through. Yes. Time for connections when you bring these two films together and talk about all the things they have in common what are we start here? I? Guess they're concerned with authenticity in their own way. How do they differ in their approaches to talking about what's real and what's not I mean I think one thing that's significant is that Kirsten gives you so much of. The. The behind the scenes that was asking for as we wrapped up talking about effort fake that sense of. Know where all this footage comes from I want to know what they stitched together to create this artistry because he's emphasizing so much that it's all artistry than it's all false. And by contrast Kirsten less, you see the setup, she lets you see the casting for the stunt doubles that are going to die in her father's stead. She lets you see the the makeup process and the like assembling the props and the rehearsal, and then she lets see what the the re-creations look like. So there's never any sense with most of the re-creations with one notable exception that he's under any threat or that you should be concerned about anything you see because she goes to the trouble of exposing the artifice at every level and exposing to some degree kind of the challenge in the buildup. It's kind of a fun little kind of behind the scenes of like many. A behind the scenes for a youtube video, essentially like a here's here's the stunt but here's everything that went into the stunt and some of the sequences are actually really fun. I kinda love the the casting the stuntman sequences where you've got Dick Johnson like walking back and forth and these young burly tattooed men who look nothing like him walking back and forth in his shadow paying attention to how he stoops where he puts his arms like the length of his stride that sort of thing. I can't had a moment of why would they cast these like young muscular dudes on like one of them has guns bigger than his head like they'd thing look nothing like him and then they costing them up and pad them out all of the sudden. They look a lot like him I I kind of enjoyed Dick Johnson just as a tiny little micro lesson in some of the artifice of filmmaking. Again in that interview with Rachel which I'm just I'm going to make sure we lincoln our show notes because it's a it's good. She's really good interview subject but one thing she says it's related to that. She says, I, got very good interviewer to let's not true. That's. Good in. Johnson says I got really interested in stunt people putting their physical bodies at harm to be invisible in a movie to create escapism for the rest of US I. Love the Metaphor of that I, wanted to turn things inside out including my role. And to back to this question of authenticity, I think in the case of Kirsten Johnson, her putting herself into it as as I was speaking about an in the first half. I think that is where the authenticity. Of Her putting herself into this film because she hasn't really done that camera I, feel like she maybe her face popped in once or twice in camera person but you know her her lens is the character there and you know she's always been a behind the camera person. So you know just taking the step of putting herself kind of the center to the film adjacent to the center of the film. Anyway is a daring act for a documentarian of her stripe. As. Far as wells goes, he is someone who has been in front of the camera for most of his career you know like he has an on camera presence in addition to a behind the camera presence. So we talked in the first half about the film itself kind of in the end being about wells despite all these other sort of. Avenues it meanders down. It is effectively a film about him as a filmmaker at that point in time and. I don't know I'm struggling to see where the authenticity comes in for fake. The title of right, there would seem to run contrary to it I. Guess I wouldn't use the word authenticity so much as candor to describe a link between Wells Johnson here in that, both of them are sharing with the audience the fact that what they're seeing fake I mean they're they're they're showing you the all of the tools of the trade in their laying bare elements of craft that most movies try to disguise, and that's kind of what I meant on the earlier show about effort fake being ahead of its time. I mean I think Dick Johnson's dead is coming along it kind of represents where nonfiction is right now where where it's like we can. Stop pretending, for example, that directors of documentaries and their subjects are not collaborators collaborators they're not. You know it's not. It's there's not that remove their collaborators not unlike actors are. So there's a relationship there and you know camera person was about interrogating those relationships too. So that's their too and of course the these are both films about filmmaking and lays everything bear and I. Mean even when we were talking earlier about some of the decisions that just makes whether we are comfortable with them it's like this film that's very open about what it's doing, and maybe some of those we might judge as ethical mistakes or errors in judgment or something, but she's not trying to hide any of it. You know she's everything is being opened up for us. To See in by opening it up, it doesn't make it a more obvious or ruin the illusion. It makes things more complex and makes us think about how Movies are constructed and so that's something the but at least from have a lot in common in that respect, those films play fast and loose with chronology as well. The wellstone more obviously than than kiss justice but the. you know, of course, you get the extraordinary final seeing which which is all about playing with chronology but. Even before that you kinda get. Your leap back to Seattle, you're not really sure when a few things happen. And of course, the I'm not sure when he was in heaven when they filmed the heaven scenes but but that's that's sort of a leap out of chronology entirely to two sets and stuff and have a hunting films deal with approaches I. Think in Dick Johnson is dead it has the effect of hopefully keeping you from fixating too much on to what state he has deteriorated to light. You know I think with stories of Dementia there's a real sort of temptation to like track a deterioration as we're making our way toward the inevitable and and that's not really how it works I mean kind of in the broad sense. But in sort of the day to day experience of of being with the person who his who is dealing with dementia I only had the barest experience of that. So I apologize I'm speaking of term, but it seems like it's You know when you're in it, you're not necessarily thinking about the long arc of it and I think there are some indicators. Johnson is dead like of the order things happening like he obviously moves from Seattle to New York but you know I, think it keeps us from like tracking the chronology of his illness and instead focusing on the just the experience of being with him in this moment and whatever state he is in as as she is capturing him and I, honestly didn't feel like we were jumping around in time too much the only time it really stuck out to me was the sort of the. Coffin reveal during the funeral sequence at the end. Because early in the film, we see him being filmed in that casket and that being very upsetting to ray and then he sort of like during the funeral sequence, the casket him in the is like superimposed, and then we kind of have that moment again, speaking of sort of laying bare the tools of film making where the casket sort of is taken away. It's revealed that the is there and comes down I i. think that's a very, very lovely and ing. So I think you know tricky chronology in in dead is used with purpose I think in. It is used for trickery. Which is fine because that is kind of what the film is is ought about in general, but it's used in the service, of character, in Dick Johnson his dad, and there really isn't a character, an effort fake other than than wells himself that I think we have any attachment to. So the jumping around in in time it just feels like trickery and another example of of trickery and that's fine. I think part of the aspect of F, for fake using it in that that trickery sort of way I think effort fake is ultimately much more of an active syncretism and it's kind of. Pulling, together, all of these ideas I would say in not the most informative or communicative way, but it's trying to dry in a whole bunch of different things at once and by jumping around conceptually between them and and jumping around in time and jumping around and focus. It's trying to show you the similarities between all of these things, the similarity between forging art and selling it versus forging a memoir and selling it versus forging an identity and selling it the connection between actual art as an act of creativity and forging art just as much of an act as an act of creativity. And you know what's what's going to be left behind when we're gone it's all of these ideas of muddled up together whereas with Dick Johnson, it feels very deliberate to. To jump in and out of the heavens sequences I feel like that sequence might be a little too ridiculous a little too much. If it was altogether as opposed to something that we jump back and forth with an an an out of its kind of lake, he's going off to his heavily reward every time. He dies as opposed to putting all the deaths together and then putting all of the heavens stuff together. I think that the way it's edited gives us these little heaven sequences is kind of as as gifts you know were more able to appreciate here he is Catching, popcorn in his tongue in slow motion or here he is revelling in the reveal of his his heavenly body in its healed toes here he is having this dance experience or collapsing into clouds or whatever these are all. Almost certainly shot at the same time as as part of all of the same package but they're kind of like. Out like little treats almost as a way of virtually visually escaping every time. The phone gets a little heavy every time it's a sad every time the understanding of his deterioration hits a little more. It's like well. Okay. So let's go back to the imaginary space where. He. We're assuming that he's going to be some day and where everything is beautiful it's Lake F for fake uses the jumping around to disagree you to get its message across and Dick Johnson uses the jumping around to relax you. So it can get its message across without being too hurtful just to note the I think the happened scenes. To kind of take it out of the chronology of the film and into the chronology of the filming it sounds like based on that that interview with Rachel that that actually came a little later in the process the idea to do that and she says, at some point, it was like we need to stop killing him. It was not a fun for him. He was bloody and cold outside and I was like, why am I doing this to him? I wondered what would be pleasurable to him to go to heaven. And she goes on from there to speak about Freud in the UNCANNY, which is also good. You should read the interview but you know I think that feeling of sort of relief or the feeling that this is a little gift comes from it being a a relief and a gift to her father. In this, you know this experience that was difficult for both of them you know, and this was maybe a release valve on this whole project and it comes through. ONSCREEN and those were the heaven. Stuff is also kind of a fun interesting juxtaposition between between that fantasy and then his own notions of what heaven is I mean he he talks about you know heaven being around all of them you now I mean, that's utterly contented person on earth you know in in in you know when they're not filming it's even more heavily because they've brought him his favorite chair and his you know automated and he gets to take a nap. There's something so pleasing about watching him do that too. So that that is as a kind of another layer of like of what heaven actually means for someone like him. I mean obviously, there's also all of the seventh day adventists stuff kind of we woven in there as well. I'm not sure what to make all that whole spiritual. Component but but there is a thing i. just think this is it doesn't really compare to FIFA losing faking this but I do I do think like the prevailing spirit of Dick Johnson is dead comes from Dick Johnson and his view of life, which is so open in accepting in positive in kind of fun. You know that that that that's kind of we kept it from being a dirge for me but you know that's the justice that I want. I, want to like get too far away from effort fake. Stop. I just WanNa make the point that you mentioned him to an APP in autumn as opposed to the many many other naps that he takes throughout the course of this film. What, a strange like whenever we parents films up like this we were always looking at either creator connections or big picture big theme connections, and then we almost always get like one of these strange little coincidental connections and the moment when he is in his Ottoman sleeping and he just sort of gently soap bubble floats up to the ceiling and disappears. Is, still, very surreal moment and then F for fake ends with Orson Welles slowly levitating an old man who appears typing or dead upward, and then eventually whisking cloth off of him and he's also disappeared. And I just had a moment of is this is complete coincidence is this based in the the symbolism of kind of the body disappearing death like physical form disappearing is this what we're getting at when we do this A. Magician's act like we have multiple bodies disappearing over the course of of effort fake. At what is what a strange weird little rhyme between these two films would've of gets at another connection, which is delusion concept that both films are hugely interested in after fake it's it's pretty obvious I mean the whole thing is a magic trick. From the beginning and in you know all about all these different levels of fakery and in truth in there as well, and then with Johnston's dead. There's a lot of illusions that are created by fantasy and by you know these these sort of staged sequences but then there's the overall illusion that it's possible for someone to. Live forever and in movies such an exciting idea that she said bottled up this moment out of time and then and then ends the film. So pointedly with the illusion that he's probably that he's gone in her opening the door and he's alive and that's a trick trick that she plays on us, and that's a trick that movies allow her to do in allows us to be kind of delighted by this illusion in and leave the film with like a little question mark with a moment that is defiant of the very title of the movie I had the thought before we started recording. That we you know we maybe should have had a connection about a topic. We've talked about before movies about moviemaking because I think these would to some extent both fall under that category. But I think the connection of illusion kind've gets at the same idea. You know like they are both films that are that are preoccupied with the idea that what you present onscreen becomes it is both a lie and it is a truth you know at simultaneously and at the same time they both acknowledge engage with filmmaking as a tool to create illusion you know whether through editing or through stuntman or. Magic. In you know. Through, through special effects and to some degree, it feels like we're going back to that sort of sense of smugness. I got off of a for fake I feel like some of these allusions are like wells smirking at the camera to the effect of you didn't realize that when I steps towards this white screen, I was going to in one cut be in front of a white screen and a different place I fooled you and it's the kind of I. Fooled us. It's meant to make you rethink your preconceptions that's made meant to make you look at the world a new. It's a socratic method of debate. That's lake. Would you like to question all the ways in which you're wrong while I stand here and smugly assert that I know more than you. And then like Dick Johnson's version of that is the K. were all hanging out together making this movie like be in on the whole process from start to finish, he can be in on the development and the ideas and kind of the fun stuff of setting this up and then the aftermath as well. Be On we staged this death. Here's the end of it, but then hairs after the end of it. You know you're not left with the image of him lying broken and bleeding at the bottom of the stairs you get. Kirsten, saying, can we change the the puzzle? Yeah. That's that's even better interest like repeatedly breaking the illusion to make sure that. You're not left with the illusion. Worthy. The illusionists is kind of sad, Dick? Johnson just feels like a much friendlier version of that to me. One thing I think we should also talk about is how these films you work as personal films with documentarian himself or herself as being the subject because I with we talked about effort fake being. So essence of wells. Be just like him as the center of attention who him as this. Artist. With a very long history that he's sharing in deconstructing with us in Dick Johnson is dead. I think is such a perfect. Fusion of Houston Johnston's personality because if Johnson's personality if you spent. Time around her she is both a fearsome. Intellect and also an extremely approachable very. Warm kind of like he's got the like these two very strong aside. So personality I think come through. In the movie and and it was interesting to see her kind of operate at true falls where she was just completely the center of attention because she's been for one, you know. These are. Audience in these filmmakers who have known her for so long I mean, she's been making movies as a cinematographer like for like twenty five years. So every filmmaker knows her and of course people you know inject camera person and this movie was sort of like the the head of the festival but like she's also extremely tall and wears very. Close, very like striking. You know she's common is a blend and I think that people just were like coming up to her all weekend to kind of share their experiences in you know and she has this extremely attentive. Gaze. What she the way she engages what people mean. She's really he's a very much a people person I Think that that generosity of spirit and that fierce intellect kind of come through beautifully in this movie but could she eat a lobster? Not Point point wells she might. She might. I would put a plaster. I mean her father can eat three pieces of what looks like the richest. Over. That's so sweet that grandkids are involved in making a cake or bringing them the cake destroying the cake speaking of grandkids this. This isn't really a connection, but it hasn't come up elsewhere and since we're kind of talking about Johnson as as a person I, just want to note the interesting family she has. Her the living situation it just kind of pass without comment but I did a little research afterwards because I was curious about it and she doesn't need live next door to the fathers of her two children. One of whom is filmmaker IRA SACHS and the other is Patriot Boris. So. Very just modern modern family if you will. But you know we see two we see at at work in the film a little bit but there's never any sort of comment or explanation on it, but it just seems like another example of her being a sort of. A singular person we'll also that scene in. Lisbon. What's what's his most recent film with Mercer? Toma I and I. Didn't do that. What's what's Oliver? SACKS ARISTOCRACY OLIVER? Sacks is the neurologist. Frankie you're talking about Frankie. So right. So the scene where they're on a beach in Lisbon, and surely that was connected to the filming of IRA, Sachs is. Frankie. That one I I did it was not I I it's it's pleasant but it's it's not on a level with might favorites. quietly. When he's really good, he's quietly one of the best Rogers in America right now it's totally worth seeing for sure. I. Love that I love that relationship I think that's pretty cool and and yet clearly the Lisbon stuff related to that in some way. Before we drifted too far off away from the these films in their connections I feel like we can't go out with talking about what's maybe the the most critical connection between the two of them which is the fact that these films are both kind of fundamentally about art in the face of death after fake as as we've all said like the heart of it, the monologue that really kind of makes it feel like an endeavour with a point with a focus with a message comes in that monologue about how everything that we saying will go down into the dark with us but we still keep singing anyway and we should keep singing anyway the monologue Kenneth expressly says that. Sometimes. When we create art, it outlives Our Name. It outlives our reputation. They were not known for it. It's just known for itself and that that's fine. Maybe maybe names aren't so important and the contrast between that and a piece of art that is so specifically personal and about somebody's name surviving after their death, I mean he's it's in the title of the. Film, it's fundamentally meant to be a record of this one individual person and who he was and what his relationship was like with the woman who's making the film and what his attitude was towards all of these things and how he felt about death and how he felt about the degeneration coming to death like it's such an interesting contrast to me in terms of. The approach that kind of like high mindedly says. Credit for art may not survive, but it's important to make art anyway, and the approach that says I don't WanNa let go of this one particular person. So I'm going to make art built entirely around him not just so I'll have a record and we'll be able to remember him but so everybody else can know him as well. So everybody else can have kind of an insight into what this experience. was like with this man that I love and then we're GONNA lose. It's just two very interesting. I think very, very different approaches to the question of what survives after we're gone. What are legacies look like? Yeah, I. Think you'd almost dealing with separate passions in a way I mean because of the with Orson Welles, you talking about art in a very abstract way not necessarily you know in the. I both are kind of optimistic in a certain extent but there's one thing you talking about art in the abstract, and then you're actually talking about a person, which is what Dick Johnson is. Dead is about in your right I. mean this. This is a movie that preserves him and preserves that relationship the relationship has with his daughter and I think it tries to do it in a way that is going to be. Perhaps, inspiring to everybody else. I mean it's not. You know if it were if Dick, Johnson's dead were just you know didn't kind of couldn't be applied or was an identifiable the rest of us wouldn't work as as well but I think we can take away a lot We can reflect own relationships with our parents or children or whatever. You know I mean there's something just inspiring about the way Dick Johnson and Johnson to make their way through the world with heart and compassionate and openness you know. Richard Right. All this is like. You, bottle that up and it's Kinda gold you know and I mean, and that's something that all of us can carry that anyone who encounters is moving kind of carry from it is just a whole different perspective on on the world that's cheering I think what's he doing a good place to wind things down Is Dead can be seen on net flicks Africa's Trivia on the criterion shadow Max canopy can be rented elsewhere digitally and is edition. It's available criterion, DVD and Blu Ray, and as usual whether on the channel or the disc, the criterion options. The way to go there just a wealth of extras on there is a really good commentary track to go with it too So we'll be right back with your next picture show. Support, for this podcast comes from state farm here with good news and even better news. The good news state farm has new lower car insurance rates. The even better news that means you can now get the service and convenience of a local state farm agent at surprisingly great rates state farm can help you save more cash and get the good neighbor service. You deserve just talk to your local state farm agent or visit State Farm Dot com to find out how much you can save on your car insurance when you want the real deal like a good neighbor state farm is their Own. Finally tend to catch each other up on films are film related items. We've seen in the interim since our last podcast, we call it your next picture show in the hopes that will put some interesting choices on your radar genevieve what the film world has been good for you lately. Well, it hasn't really been good for me lately, I have not watched this recently, but it is a film that I kept thinking of during F for fake and if it were released today, I would absolutely want to pair with that film but the last it came out ten years ago in it is. Called exit through the Gift Shop It is a film by the Artists Bank C., which if you're familiar with banks, he should right away be an indication that this film is going to be something other than a straightforward documentary much like effort fake. It's an essay film that kind of unspools along these different narrative paths. But unlike fake it all comes together in a very satisfying way that nonetheless avoids sort of simple pat conclusion. It's also film that's very interested in the nature of art, the role of the artist and the intersection thereof, and while the type of art it's focused on isn't Forgery, there's definitely an impostor component at play in the figure of tears. Guetta, a wannabe street artists who refashioned himself as Mr Brainwash Like for fake film that's very tied to the idea of editing s filmmaking the backstory of the film is they get ahead filmed hundreds of hours of graffiti artists, but was unable to make it an any sort of functional film. So being see took over the editing and it became his film not unlike wells and Reichenbach I'll note while get ended up doing let's say something different s Mr Brainwash given this is a bank see. Product in banks, he is a notorious trickster. It is hard to delineate between the film's onscreen and offscreen with allergies, and there was a lot of speculation about whether. The whole thing was a hoax when it first came out and even more speculation about whether it mattered Kevin and product which was nominated for a best. Documentary. Oscar that year like I said I haven't really watched exit through the gift shop in a while. So I can't say. How well it holds up. My hunch is that it does so very well, and after sitting through effort fake, I'm looking forward to having the time to revisit exit through the Gift Shop. It's rentable and all the usual places did anyone else have make that connection while they were watching for fake nobody took. A good one. Thank you. Re Banks Rep seems like fallen since that movie. Shredding the painting at auction stunt a a couple of years ago was. This sort of fake amusement park thing people weren't so into but well, whatever can't hit everyone out of the park. But it's a good movie Scott. What about you? Occasion for I write this little newsletter double feature thing for your time watching newsletter every Friday and I my favorite of the kind of the more recent vintage Disney nature documentaries associations by Jack Perrin in it's like the reason I like it so much as it does have those kind of requisite Disney nature elements of just a little anthropomorphized. You know kind of touchy feely new agey narration by Pierce. Brosnan but it's also full of just staggeringly beautiful abstract images but that's not the full on our command even though I I would if you WANNA see one of those types of movies, I would definitely check that out I wanted recommend something. The same filmmakers did before in France called winged migration which is about birds Fr- flying great distances from one place to another and following that's. The. Entire movie it's is following different migratory patterns and what's so interesting about it and almost calming about it is that it dials back on all the information you might expect there's very there is a little bit of narration but minimal and then but most of what you get is just the name of the bird, how far they have to fly and where they're going. Then all that's handled in a title and then you just watch them do it and it's Just it's all about image making in aerial photography and bird formations, and just the fact that when you're following birds. You get to see the globe, but you could just see interesting top Offi from above you know maybe you can see them flying through cities mountains and you know ice flows and just like I. It's just a wonderful experience and the fact that it takes away some of the things that you might expect from a nature documentary like information. It educated educational aspect being in now most a lot of them have you know sort of environmental. Warnings because obviously things are not going so great it's soothing just to see it more as a pure act active cinema. It's worth visiting and I think the it's a good feeling to watch now kind of transporting. So winged migration, it also micro cosmos from the kind of started that whole thing too. That's pretty that's pretty great too. So I love winged migration. I'm a little sad we were gonNA talk about Disney nature though 'cause. A surplus of thoughts on Disney nature to do something with but alas. You've seen of them. We both see many of them with should be some sort of collaboration point. Maybe that's a a bonus episode Yeah Yeah for sure it's All, been waiting for. Keith, Rowley you. I'm going to film adjacent because I'm deep in the weeds on a couple of watching projects that probably don't really count for this, but there is a podcast it's returning we're. Between we talk to each other sometimes were not recording and between reporting things particular in how we missed the podcasts called the Topol ASCII files which was created produced and hosted by by Africa the show David Chen. It Stars character actor extraordinary Stephen Topalov. Who reflects on basically everything? It's likely episodes A. You know a little bit of storytelling from Stephen Till ASCII which he does very well in addition to be a good actor but he he kind of draws from different parts of his life and kind of unpack incidences and memories, and we've of into into stories that. I think one thing I really like about a you know he is. A man in his in his sixties at this point he. Of experience but he always kind of approach is always sort of someone still learning not someone who's handing down to wisdom from all experience with someone who's still processing life is still trying to figure out what it all means I think. It's a it's a podcast. I was saying you know it's been off the air for three years and listening to the new episodes that was sent as it's like putting on old warm shirt. It's like Oh. Yes. Here's this. Who says comforting thing that I'd I'd forgotten about. So it's as clear a check it out. It's. A website called the Topol ASCII files, Dot com I think there's a youtube element to where you can find all about it. They're having not listen to it at all, which is kind of ridiculous because people have been telling me to listen to it. What's the? What's the gateway set the? What's the episode that will just like knock you your but the upset I always recommend when when is episode forty four called a voice from another room, which is about as experiences. Reading the script to true stories, the David Byrne film with with Beth Henley, the playwright who was his partner for years, and it is off forget the details so and I don't want to spoil it surprises but you'll basically learn how the band radiohead is indirectly related to a very strange experience that assume Topalov had in his in his younger years inspired. An incident in the film inspired the song inspired the band but in terms of finding out what that is people discover for themselves. So you know it's it's up in any point. One one thing is there's no chronology to it is is kind of a kind of all across his life and there's lots of good Hollywood stories but also just sort of reflections on. Being a father being Assan and and so on and so forth and being a boyfriend. The big through lines that which again, not the story itself is not chronological at you. You won't get kind of a start to finish story of this very central relationship in his life by. The podcasts start to finish but you will get it in very deliberate segments like you'll get it. If you start at the beginning and go on till, you come to the end and then stop as Lewis Carroll would have said. You end up with a portrait. Pieced together, like a giant jigsaw puzzle of how this relationship happened and how it operated and how it fell out. In a way that's very consciously assembled I think it's remarkable how much the individual episodes of the Topalov Ski Gi files stand alone and independent and yet at the same time how much you can feel overtime them filling in all of these different holes and gaps that they deliberately consciously we've for the story of of this man's life. If you want something if you want to start someplace like like Fun and Light Episode Twenty Nine is just about behind the scenes on groundhog day. It's. It's called the classic and it gives you a bunch of Trivia about sort of what that film was like what his experience was lake and a bunch of observations about being in the film industry, and that's really fun though I cannot remember which episode was he goes into detail about working with Steven Seagal and that's the memory them forever going to carry. This. Out of this podcast, he's a a consummate storyteller he's. Very very kind honestly varies sweeten very wise and so many of these podcast individual podcast stories kind of start with Lake. Here's maybe a piece of Trivia about a film that you know in love and then go into like a a long and thoughtful story from his life that might be about film or might be personal or might be something else entirely, and then come to really surprising conclusion it's it's really well crafted I'm so excited it's coming back Tasha, how about you? What? What would you recommend? Well, nothing is good is the table ASCII files. I'll tell you that it's been a week It's been A. Recording these because of the whole situation where we recorded our PAT pair up four Jillian air and dog teeth, and then realize the Hegelian wasn't coming. Vod for another couple of weeks past the day where it was coming to theaters we're recording this exactly one week after after the last one and it's certainly PODCAST, magic? Tash. Isn't. Really. It's all a symbol that of different fragments and I fooled you and I know more than you do. But I'm GonNa let you behind the scenes because benevolent Kirsten Johnson host as opposed to. Smarmy ass. I I haven't had a lot of time to watch wasn't email address recent complaints to. Tasha mispronounces everything at next pitcher show dot com. There's dot net. Number weekly voicemails. Yeah. We'll have time to watch stuff and also due to political stress and just Shire's vaguely at world I have not been much head space for watching films. So during a particularly stressful moment recently, I, sat down with trolls world tour. which was just literally the only thing I could contemplate putting into my brain at at that particular point in time I loved the First Trolls, the twenty sixteen trolls it was one of those films that I sort of grudgingly went to see out of a feeling of like it's a began amid movie we're going to need to cover it and it just delighted me the songs are silly and over the top, the surrealism is really rich that the like acid trip imagery is. Kind of remarkable and just overall. It's just a very different kind of animated film. trolls world tour is not that at all. It's a pretty bog standard country children's movie There's a bad guy played by Rachel bloom from crazy ex girlfriend. She wants to steal everybody's uniqueness and make everybody the same. There's a big message about how that's bad and why and how it relates music. Way To. that. Message. Overall in the the songs are kind of fun but just not inspired in the same kind of way. But the design of this movie. I I could honestly recommend that people put this movie on in the background is a giant screen saver in you'd it and just have it running or honestly just examine to see. Some of the stuff on in Non Pixar animation these days. The first film kind of the framing device was that maybe the whole story was being told like via a scrapbook of the story that somebody had made. So this kind of a framing device that involves lake little felt versions of the characters in like a little like fiber craft book and it's all playing out. But then that that visual extends to the rest of the film, which is like fiber craft and paper craft like everything has a fuzzy texture or like looks in some way like it was cut out or drawn or sewn in some way and the the new one is a fiber craft film. It's so remarkable I, find myself just completely ignoring. Whatever like big dumb chase everybody is supposed to be on whatever big broad hero villain moment was supposed to be happening and looking at the backgrounds. There's a chase scene out of a Western where our hero trolls offend some country music trolls and are being chased through the landscape and the camera pulls back to visualize this lake. Deep Canyon with a river running through the bottom of it very standard like Western. Landscape and the Canyon is made up of of piled quilts, piled folded quilts and you. Can see like every stitch and texture this scene where the protagonist comes down to the shoreline of a lake and looks at her reflection and the shoreline is visibly made out of like like the tattered edge of a ragged peace of fabric which looks like the foam at the edge of a the water just like everything is film is so visually thought through and so beautiful when when the pop music trolls end up in the Rock Music Trolls Evil Lair, it's made up of ragged. Denham. When they're on stage together, you can see like the big stick we've of yarn used to. So the whole thing it's ridiculous I it it delights me to know how much thought went into realizing kind of the background, the setting and the aesthetic of the film it would have been so easy to make it a another generic CGI animated movie but it's honestly really playful and it's on Hulu now. So you no longer have to like pay an additional twenty dollars in order to have it for like three days you can just kind of click it on and watch it randomly. Until you get kind of bored of extremely colorful kind of Sushi and whimsy in the visuals, and then you can move on with your life and the six types of music of. New. Six. Well, somebody hasn't seen the movie because There are a bunch of other types of music as well. Kind of get. I've seen. Wedge. So you say that like somebody who doesn't I strongly remember the Reston's He. Does it for this edition of the picture show? And that's actually yet for this edition. The next picture show you know our next period. We did a little bit of effort fakery which you because of. Some scheduling issues were movies we'll get moved around so we're actually going to come back. Next with our long promised hotly anticipated pairing of dog twos and Kajillions to films about unusual families as guess as leave it at that those were finally come out on October thirteenth and. In the though to hear your feedback on this week's discussion after fake Dick, Johnson's dead anything else film related. You'd like to talk about we wouldn't include your thoughts on future episodes of the show. Even short voicemail at seven, seven, three, two, three, four, nine, seven, three, zero or email comments and experts your show dot net. We may post your response on facebook for discussion or on a future persona of the show finally before closing out this week's episode, where can you find everyone these days Scott you'd find me on twitter at Scott underscored to bias you find my work in New York Times of the Ringer Vulture Guardian and other publications I feel like I should also say I spent September working like. On three, fairly large features, all of which will be out by the time you've listened to this. So so I wrote about letterbox to a at for the ringer I also wrote about a profile of Kirstin Johnson also for the ringer, and then I have a piece about a wilderness of air, the fx adaptation of the Earl Morris Book. that's for the New York Times Pasha I'm the film and TV editor. At Polygon, Dot Com you can find me on twitter at Tasha. Robinson I ain't written nothing lately about I'm hoping to actually get back into it as we wind September down and headed to the exciting land of a small strange October horror film releases we'll see how that goes. genevieve. I am the Deputy TV editor at vulture, and by the time you hear this the day that this comes out, I should say we will have kicked off a big package that I have been working on for a while. Now on the one hundred sequences that shaped animation, it's a big and impressive and very cool list that I am excited to be to have out in the world along with a lot of supplementary stuff that I did not right but it definitely had a hand in shaping. So I hope you will check that out and you can find me on twitter at Genevieve Kofsky keys. A freelance writer what you're being thought I read all the time for for places like a mel and vulture and the ringer and Rosenstone occasionally and I'm over the place these days I you can follow me on twitter at K v three thousand. You can say updated on the next picture show by visiting next picture show dot net via twitter at next pot and be a facebook at facebook dot com slash picture show you can also contribute two Patriot and Get Bonus content at Patriot dot com slash next picture show. If you haven't subscribe to show on Apple podcast already, please consider it apple podcast descriptions are an important part of getting podcast more prominence and more listeners and while you're there, we appreciate every review every thumbs up helps us find new listeners to keep the show going thanks to Dan the bake snakes for assistance producing this podcast. The next show is probably part of the family podcast fleas couldn't next time.

Dick Johnson Dementia Richard Johnson Kirsten Johnson ray Dick Johnson Kirchen Johnston Orson Welles Rachel Hander Wells Johnson Blu Ray director Netflix Alzheimer Microsoft Scott Tobias genevieve Kofsky Amazon Cureton Johnson Dick Jaspers Johnson Robinson
Ep48: 2020 World Womens Curling Championship Preview

Rocks Across the Pond

1:15:04 hr | 1 year ago

Ep48: 2020 World Womens Curling Championship Preview

"Yeah Hey Buddy will. Cross the pond hits a curling podcast. My name is Ryan McGee. And I'm coming to you from Richmond Virginia and joining me as always from Southampton England. Our professor of peeled. Jonathan Hovercraft Jonathan. How Are you today Ryan? Just as they hit record the Sun came out. That's the first scene. The Sun like a month. Why did you move to England? I Dunno it's cool. You get to go see Europe It's better than dodging tornadoes. But that's only that's only Oklahoma in parts of the cells that's true. I'm open to moving again. I mean if his all right. Here's my dream job. I've thought about it. And this is this evolves a lot of fantasy on my part but if there is a job where you'd be like half time. Lecturer University Profit Halftime University curling coach. I'd be down for that. I think the only job in the world where that exists is the University of Alberta. Yeah so they should hire me. What about Calgary Calgary? They shouldn't Calgary University of Calgary. Do they want to be beaten by University of l? Burda no they need to like up the game and put some money in there. I don't even think the dino sponsor curling that's what you should do you should. You should go after that job in then. Create the DYNO's Curling team curling team. They Must Have University of Calgary curling team. I don't think so if they did. I don't I don't. I don't think they qualified for that Canada West or whatever they call that conference championship. If they do. I don't think Calgary curling but Jonathan Jonathan in order for you to be considered one of those jobs you should probably think about making it out of the pool. I that's true so it's basically all on Felix basically blaming Felix for my Really harsh to be like me to feel like that he and I sky Felix's keeping you from your dream of true of getting paid to be a university lecturer slash curling coach that The other day Or League started up so that was good win. We won So I'm skipping while we're doing skip till you lose and so but skipped game. One gave up a steal of three in the first mainly because I threw threw takeouts with both of mine so we gave up a three and then I did not call a single take out the rest of the game in. We wanted to four for the entire team for the I did not know I mean I did not call a single takeout period. The rest of the game. It was just drew the entire game after the first. Yes yeah. It's pretty good. We explain the wild Amigo before on this. I think so the basically taking away basically it's just called in. It's it's really good strategy if you're playing on arena ice it's just throw draws yeah. I think so I. I told you the first time I went down to Dallas to play on arena is said never played on arena ice before and a stone like on the button and I went to throw a takeout firsthand skipping and I missed exist backed off and so I said okay. I'll turn and it backed off the other way right so basically took me four ends to admit that I couldn't make an open hit on a stone on the Biden and I remember like there's another guy from Alberta who's like another skip their. He's like you cannot. You just pulled me over after the game and he's like you cannot call a game on arena. Is the way you do on. Club is the oldest drive you nuts and it took me about a year to wrap my head around the at and then a few more years to figure out what worked and then with you and mark and a few and who else on that team that we had in Dallas Rusty RUSTY FIERCE. I made the play. Nick Meyers. And He'd pee broaden some buddies from Saint Paul's they're pretty good team and I think the way the Wild Amigos invented team was the Amigos was I just said I'm just GonNa call all draws and then try something ridiculous on my last shot and what was the glitz. The score in that game was was in fact ridiculous right. Yeah I think it was a in a in an eight end game. I think the final was like twelve to ten something like higher than that. But it'd be like we'd score for give up three Totally bonkers but I think in arena curling. That's the way to go which sought more fun. It's more fun. I remember I remember Jesse. Took it even more to the extreme. She went all draws. You remember Jesse's girls in the first arena. Nats yeah available to them well they are up to Hamburg. They called all draws remember. The empire was outrageous. Like you're supposed to be hit if you're reading it especially in the final in a metal fight all all sixteen stones or and play and they gave basically give to steal a one to win the game because the other team had no shot. Yeah good stuff it was good stuff arena Kirwan's classic. So are you how long you playing? How long does your league run for nine weeks with a by teams so Enda Mary? Yeah I think the last one clockwise arena nets this year or not. No-one from Virginia is going to arena nationals so they they're at the the GNC see arena. Championship is actually that same weekend are interested is real. I think that's I think that's when they could get ice. Okay yeah the GNC see GNC arena. Championships is in. It's either entr at Triangle or Charlotte Account Ri- CanNot remember our playing the GNC arena championships on dedicated ice. Good are you going to go to that or not? No so that's That is my son's first birthday so I will not be going to that well. I guess we're actually the he has a may birthday right. So it's actually a good curling Bertha curling parent I gotTa say why is that? It's not a great arena curling birthday. Why like birthday during the play down season or you know Pete curling season right with the birthday in the summer okay. I thought no thought that I thought it was late. Had something to do with the way he qualifies for Juniors because it's like in hockey it's based strictly off of January through December. So hockey. Like if you're born in January. You're going to be a few months older than everyone else. Whether you're midget might you know whatever it is so if you're born in January you're going to have a head start on everybody so I a friend of mine told me if you look at the NHL you'll see there's a? There's a decent number of January birthdays because they were always like a step above their age group when they were coming up. Yeah no that apply so. It's weird so in curly. It's a bit weird It's July. He wanted July or August birthday. Because you get that extra year of junior eligibility so fishers. Hose A kindest pay off. I mean I sound with the July birthday so technically my last year of eligibility it was. I was beating up on poor teenagers. I was twenty so up on sixteen-year-olds or thirteen year olds junior zones but And so I think it works that way but it's not the sake I think part of it's also with with ice hockey. It's when you registered for school so you're putting with a certain cohort and so you're actually physically bigger than all the other kids too. So that's that's kind of the theory there Yup. Yeah we'll see it's going to be a few years it'll be a few years. Although he's that he's very quickly getting to the point where he would be as heavy as the rockies He's in the hundred and twentieth percentile heighten. Where he is. He's wow so it's not one of those one of those random big babies that then kinda comes back to the mean. He's he's going to be big. No He's so he just turned ten months and he is. He would be in the fiftieth percentile if he was eighteen months Oh Wow it's good stuff easy. He's eating us out of House and home. He's not he's not like around anymore. He's like he's proportional now. He's the height has caught up to the weight and so he's pretty tall. Been your is crazy tonight because I am very much not. Yeah well errands pretty tall. Yeah yeah in the new I guess you've got your lab. What your last English National Championship? Coming up yeah this week. You're exciting next defending your mixed title. I guess so although Stu I don't should be retired he said I'm playing with you this year so like he just doesn't like well but that does tend to happen so you know but then he ended then he entered the Englishmen's you know so I don I thought he was stepping back for. He didn't step back so I'm not sure what's up do. But we picked up Kerr who I've played with in the past so used to keeping I am playing third everyone's a sliding up one spot incurs coming lead as we decide to play it. So who said Fiona Okay Cool Nice? Well Good luck to you. Hopefully defend Word you any idea were next year's championship would be I heard when I was in Aberdeen. Aberdeen wanted to host it again from someone that would know those things. I don't know if the wchs we'll give them the hosting but it was a good spots of ended up back in Aberdeen. That'd be cool. Save but I will I. You GotTa Win. Of course I you got to win so I don't want to get too far ahead of myself there and then I kind of figure if you win one of these things than everything else. Just kind of falls into place From speaking from experience you don't really have to you know you don't maybe worry a bit about the money but if it's a chance to do one of these major championship things It's kind of a you know maybe not once in a lifetime but a rare experience so you just you just pay what you gotta pay and go where you gotta go all right so our last episode Which we discussed Polish curling and every All of the drama going on there surrounding their suspension Go if you haven't heard that go back and listen to it is really interesting. We had a guest From from the Polish Federation of Curling Clubs. You kind of gave us the inside story on what led to the suspension of the Polish Curling Association. But in that episode we did not talk any brier and Scotties This is our women's world's preview but will also Jonathan you said you wanted to rectify that and talk a little bit of Brian. Scott for straight yeah. So let's do let's do brier now and then try to fold the Scotties into the person conversation when we do the women's World Pedia that sound. Good Yeah so. We are recording this at eleven. Am on Sunday. So the semi-final is coming up here in about an hour that is Matt Dunn Stone Against Bread. Gesu in the winner of that will face Brendan. Who's in his third consecutive brier final? Jonathan what did you notice? What are your key takeaways from what you've seen so far in this tournament all right so take away one that we were talking about before we started. Recording is the championship pool in all likelihood is what's GonNa be the trials pool in two years time. I'd say that basically I'm confident with the top seven. I think gunners kind of on the cusp but the other the people finish top seven a championship pool are all definitely locks for The trials the roar of the rings gunners probably one of the last two into that. Is it nine next time or eight in? I can't remember that. Keep changing play down format but those are definitely your top eight. I think it's nine so seven and two from the pretrial. I think that's right. Yeah and the gap is just massive. Now I'd say will end on the inside it's kind of it's kind of spread out. You have one really good team in each province kind of except Alberta where? You've got Korean watcher. In the women's there's some consolidation there particularly in Manitoba. Yeah it's it's a different. There's different dynamics going on both sides for swearing's is interesting as some of the teams that were like. They caught her right to me. Qatar laycock those are those are like good participants in the trials gang regular participants in slams Qatar. You know lost the trials final washed the brier. Final. He's a good skip his regressed in terms of his skill. But he's just not hitting the tour as much neither laycock and they the gap between them and the top. He's the championship. Pool was just massive right And so I think this. Is You basically get to the point? Now where we have in Canada. Seven eight pro teams and then basically everybody else So that's kind of an interesting development. I don't I don't mean maybe last year start to see it. Coming said certainly a feature of this cycle a lot more pronounced than it's been past. Let's say yen. It will be a bit more open. Still both in terms of Scotties but also in terms of the trials right you you probably four or five kind of pro teams into space for you know. Probably say that. There's another ten teams that I wouldn't be surprised if they made the made the trials. But I'd be stunned if the top seven gunners bubble team but if any of those top seven didn't make the the trials and in a year and a half's time really any of those seven could be the team that represents Canada right like even even met Johnstone how much that team has improved this last year. And you're looking at. They've got a year and a half until the roar of the rings. How goodwill that team be in a year and a half in any of those seven could peak at the right time during that week At the end of November beginning December of twenty twenty one and wind up being the men's representative whereas on the women's side. I would be pretty stunned. If it wasn't a Jones home in Anderson or Carrie. I'd be stunned if it wasn't one of those four teams. Yeah I've got those the four that clearly have separation on the women's side. But will you say flurry or not? I didn't You're not convinced yet. They're obviously extremely good team. I don't think that they're I think they're even even though they do. Collect a lot of points on tour. I don't think they're quite at the level of those four yet. In my opinion not my mic. One Canada Cup you know. Three of the four of interest scotties final. I think they're kind of like who's next right. That are kind of right on right on deck for becoming a power team But it's I mean it depends of Canada. Cup is winning a major which in some ways the depth of field and the significance. It's always a hard thing to win at a Scotties or a brier but They're they're right there. I'd say But he on the man I think done stone the one thing that he doesn't have the other seven teams have as he doesn't quite yet have that big game experience right which. I think still matters when. He's kind of closing the gap he's about to is he's going to get it as soon as we're done recording here you could have. He could very well go bang. Bang today and win. He's got all the shots are watching the one two game. It was a he. He probably made more spectacular shots. Not Game than boxer did part of thinks. The boxer teams a little bit more finely tuned. Were just able to wear them down with with more precision over the course attend ends but there there's a couple he basically had to MRS that gave up steals in that was I think. Mostly big game nerves where you've got to be in a couple of those games to to kind of have that experience to fight through those kinds of pressure situations and keep the focus up for all ten ns but once he has that he'll definitely be in the same same category as the other the other six. I'd say watchers watchers teams. Just so good at setting up in that. It's not fair because you have a skip as good as watcher in. He's not having to make those spectacular shots that we saw to win games from coup McEwen and done stone Earlier in the week he hasn't been forced to make those shots. We know that he can. And we know that how we know how spectacular of a curler he is but he he hasn't needed to his team has just kind of sucked the life out of their opponents almost all week with the exception of the game against Louis. Yeah it's very reminiscent of kind of twenty ten Kevin Martin kind of team just I. It's very much similar style. The Kevin Martin which is just. We're going to get ahead. Try to get a lead early gotta lead with Hammer protect that lead at all Kospi. Very patient wait for the opponent's mistakes and just wear them down right. That's that's the classic Kevin Martin Star. He wasn't Martin was never kind of lots of rocks and play. Lots of offense. Kinda guy he was. Let's get lead and protect that lead. Kinda guy so and I think in many ways watcher has been some tactical tweaks obviously for five rock. Free Guard zone era but very much plays in a very similar to Kevin Martin of kind of classic control curling. Is there anyone that you think has had maybe more trouble than the other teams adapting? The five rock were two years in now. This is the second what the second brier second Brier Scotties with the five rock rule. Is there anyone that you think had kind of more trouble adapting to that than than the four rock era? I think so the big difference. I actually don't think so. I think in some ways all those teams are slam teams. They've been playing the five rock for started that in twenty twelve. So we've got about seven or eight years experience playing some variety of the five rock rule. So it was the advantage. So is the answer to that like the Qatar in Lake Hawks of the world where there's there are very good tours in BC in sketch went very high quality tours. But the problem is the points. Aren't there to to just do those tours and get to the slam level. Yeah I think that's a big disadvantage right if you look at Yeah I think that's part of it and teams like that like Scotty McDonald Like the teams that if you look at the hardest the next tier down. In terms of accumulating the points the slam. Tease basically get to play on championship. Ice Only pretty much all season. They play one or two kind of high level club cash spills early in the season to tune to put the rest their schedules these days or just slams. Canada cops maybe a couple of international events so always high quality ice Always playing with the five rock rule against other teams that only play the five rock rule so if other teams are just kind of one or two years into the five rock and don't quite have the nuances and are playing all their games against teams at that level That's that's a big advantage. May Be part of the reason. Why there there's so much separation between the slam teams than Non Slam teams these days? What point Does everyone getting to play five rock? At what point does that allow them to kind of catch up a little bit in terms of strategy? Obviously maybe not shot making ability but strategy. Wise How far away from other teams being able to catch up? Who maybe haven't been playing it in the slams for last however many years Probably another two years. I think I think we haven't really had so if I think back to. When the four rock was interested in Canada that switch actually happened right when they were like two great dynasties right the Furby four and Colleen Jones and what was interesting about that. Is that Colleen Jones figure how to play. The four rock with maximal defensiveness. They basically hit everything. There was the four rock rule and Randy Furby for time called. Probably the most aggressive game people are seeing at least since wearing a gift not even more so and so they both adopted their strategy and a lot of the other teams are sucked playing three Rock Shadow. Geez and took them a couple of years to catch up so in a couple of years. You'll have the teller tardy was one win away from making the Briar. So in a couple of years you'll have the teams like tardy like Jack. Ota's team you'll have those teams kinda coming into their own and they've they've been playing five rock in junior so I think that that's probably when you'll see at right when this when this pretty good when this pretty good crop of juniors starts making some noise in them inside maybe I think it was noticeable with say Jamie Murphy's team where the Bavard Demata Bac some of these teams that are technically sound. Play the game well but when they got up against the slam teams. You could see that there'd be a couple of situations where the rock place it wasn't quite a sharp They they kind of make a few calls that that might be a big question or they may they may bail a little bit too early in the in the end would kind of disappear so I think I think that's part of it but I think there's other reasons that gap is. There is not shares. Familiarity with the five rockets. You know if you're if you're on a team that's able to essentially be funded to go curl full-time. That's a massive gap that opens up there. with teams that. Maybe you're just doing it. Part time playing you know four or five events a year keeping to the local circuit not really able to accumulate enough points to get the slams. That's a huge chasm. There that You know regardless of your talent. You might not ever be able to close. Are you seeing the same thing in in the Scotties on the women's side whereas Were just a a little bit different just because of the hitting ability on the men's side I think you're right part of it's the hitting ability up way ability. I think the other difference is there are not as many like the slams for the women's side of the game are not as Canada. Centric is one way of putting it. That's right so right. We we look at the standings as a lot more international teams that are at that standard And there's fewer Canadian teams that are basically able to to be pro fulltime so in. We'll see that here at women's world is kind of pivot to our preview of women's worlds because looking at it there's a bunch of slam teams at women's roles and I don't think you'll see nearly as many when we get to the men Right before it's just before we go through in we take apart this field in who we think. Other than Anna Hassle work has a chance to to win the world's coming up We do have some more national champions. That have been crowned. We did that a couple of episodes ago. We went through a bunch of a bunch of the National Championships. That have taken place and there's been a few more Since we last talked you so we went to kind of recognize some of the some of the champs that have been crowned Across the globe here and I'll just go through them real quick and then we'll go through the the women's field. Jonathan will start with Denmark. Mark in we'll talk about this team coming up and they will be. The Danish representative is the team. That was also the Danish representative at Europeans. Mathilde Halsey She captured the Danish women's title defeating a familiar face. Medellin Dupont who we haven't seen on the international stage here in a little bit. They were they were in the Danish championships and lost in the final. Two Matilda Halsey Another familiar face showed up on the men's side. That was But they finished second losing to Tobias Tuna who you saw him a few years ago at European junior bees were. They finished second. They were able to make the the main field of world. Juniors I think it was four years ago in that team won they won the bees that year now they finished second to Russia Russia. Were No. Yeah you're right. Sorry it's like Jonathan. I have it in front of me. I remember the national anthem So yeah that was a very solid Generated what's interesting to me about Denmark. Is they are either really good or really bad. Especially on the men's side. Were a couple years ago. Denmark was down in the European see pool in. Now they're back they They team krause just finished fourth at at European this year. But I believe according to an email I received from the Danish Federation it will be team Tuna representing Denmark. It at men's worlds along with team. Halsey representing Denmark. Here next week Why do you think that is what he even more? So than a bunch of countries. Denmark is very up and down. It seems Depth as talking to the Danish coach. Think they have four places they can curl in? Denmark. So that's not many It's a small sorry to small country but it's also if you only have four facilities. Let's say you've got? I don't know probably in the neighborhood of five hundred active curlers. That's the pool of curlers. You drawing from right versus if you have a million. You're going to be better right. I think that's the thing that's a big part of it. Quite frankly for a lot of these countries is they may especially the basically the way you develop elite curlers through junior program And it can be very up and down like right now. The Danish junior boys team is actually very good. Technically sound. They're all twelve and thirteen There'll be very scary years of. I've coached against him a couple of times. But they're young right so that means that there's not anyone in that seventeen eighteen nineteen age range that's You know competing at a high level right now that group when they when they first hit their growth spurt but secondly got a bit more experience in assuming they stick with it which is always a big F with juniors. They'll probably become another car Team that gets flowed up to the April and juniors and you know to buy tuna was a very good curler when he was skipping. Juniors got up to the world junior as and now you see what four five years is making the world as immense earns. That's kind of par. For the course army takes a few years out of juniors to catch up to the adult game so Yeah it's just his depth and having You know having enough people curling to Portland put together a competitive team. Yeah and he's got Daniel Paulsen playing second for him. That was the Danish skip a couple years ago at euros was interesting. Michael Krause who finished fourth at Europeans. This year finishes fifth at the at the Danish Championship. So that's a that was a that was an interesting result to see I also don't know if these will be your euro representatives next year every country. Does it different Like Jonathan where you are in England. The winners of this year's English championships that'll be teaming England all of next year starting at Euros if they make it to the world qualification event. They'll be England there if they didn't make it two worlds. There'll be England there other countries. You Hold Your National Championship right before worlds in then if that team wins their your representative whether or not. They represented that country at Europeans yet every country. Does it very differently? So according to the email I got those will be your two teams at world's no idea if they will be your teams at Europeans in the fall in Estonia. We have a familiar face winning on the women's side. Marie term on is the champion once again beating trend Madison in the final. We have a new champion On the men's side Edward Velzen He wins his first Estonian championship beating under Yaacob. Sin In the final Under SIAKA obsession with Harry Lil throwing fourth stones. So this is the first time that a non Lil That includes Harry Martin and Erkki Lil. First I'm a non. Lil has won the Estonian Men's championship. Since two thousand six D not play this year or no through. He threw out earlier on no. He threw fourth rocks for the team. That finished through still playing retired yet. No he's still. Yeah he's he does he kind of it seems like he focuses more on doubles but He was thrown fourth rocks for Team Yaacob season With Andrea Jacobsen skipping Finland The men's champion is skipped by Kelly Kiskunhalas interesting about that team. That team includes Willie Michaela and a team of sallow interesting. Those are the other three players that won silver in two thousand six with Marcus. Appalling Yemi So they they are still out there winning games in Finland they'll be team Finland next year. They beat this year's last year's champion of Poland in in the final Or I'm sorry. They did not they do. They don't do a a final in Finland Team Kissing hit won the round Robin In wanted out rights there was not a need for a final there. Same thing on the women's side where million. Suleyman is glazed finish champion. They'll be team Finland next year at Euros. A beating me. Atto in that round Robin France familiar face on the women's side. Pauline Jenrette is the women's champion beating Stephanie. Barbara in in the final New Champ first-time Champs on the men's side and Stephan venue is your men's champion in France beating Eddie Murphy who we've seen a few times at Euros First Time Yeah. First Time Getting the championship for In we will see him at the European beats next year. How many championships have you found in the world? Twenty-five transitions very dive deeper. Even uncurling zone Twenty-five out let's think about this a little more than half. The federations have a national championship. That you could find that I've found so far. Yes and there's a bunch that haven't been crowned yet like the Polish Championship. Which we've talked about. It's going on now. It won't end until April fifth. 'cause they kinda. They played on weekends. Basically Hungary's is in April The shed the Czech Republic is coming up later. It'll be the the men are in mid March. The women are in our in April So there's a bunch of chant like the the it seems like the countries a lot of countries don't schedule their championships until they know What pool they're in like if if they're in the seed will have it early In in that team will go to this. The European see pool in May teams that know that there are already in the pool. They'll kind of hold them later. So there's a little bit less of a gap between the championship in the people. Okay Yep so In bold will wind up will Roundout with Norway which just finished a and it's a it's a rams fell dynasty. Jonathan Maya rhames fell wins on the women's side beating Marianne Roy Vic that team includes Christie's gasoline But Maya Ramsfield. This is the first time First Time She's won the women's final. They've been the junior representative Outed Norway for the last few years and then on the men's side repeat champion from last year. Magnus Rams fell beating. Team is rude in the final seven to four today Sets two straight for Magnus Rams fill in what's funny Remember this distinctly last year at world's Magnus Ramsfield was there and he brought Stephan Wall Stat as alternate in Wall Stab wound up playing a lot of the games including in the last In the last drops that are playing the US and Shuster's beaten in pretty good in Schuster noses in the playoffs. And I think they were going to play later that day. Either later that day or early in the morning So they're looking to play as few ends as possible so they get up. A big lead. Ramsfield doesn't shake they think about it and they choose to keep playing and rams fell told. Shuster in this was picked up on the Mike that his excuse was. We WanNA keep playing. Because Stephens going to beat me the next few years and then so we get this year. Stephan brings in Thomas Souls route into his team and then loses tobacconist rams fell at the final so magnus rams fell heading back to world's they They kinda struggled last year will see how they do this year. interesting you never know uncurling so you never. You can never tell what's going to happen the world so You WanNA preview this women's world championship. Now yes finally were like likes thirty minutes. Just now got so. We'll go through this a little quickly a little quicker than we planned. I guess what ordered Iraq going on in the world right a lot of curling going on right now we're curling sees us right now would go through these teams order of merit or do they wanna go alphabetical order by region. You you hate order of Merit In because of that I am. We're going to go through these teams based off of Order of merit so we'll go from Worst in order order of merit issue of hate it and stumping literal. But we'll we'll get to that in a second so we're GONNA go reverse order of merit civil start with the lowest ranked team and we'll move to the highest ranked team in order of Merit What's interesting is you have seven teams at this year's worlds that are in the top twelve in order of merit which I think that's a pretty strong field for world's don't you. Yeah it'll probably deeper field in the men's is my aunt Denmark. Also that if they are hundred forty eighth in order of Merit. This is hulce's first trip to the world's in her first time skipping The best that Denmark has done at this tournament was they won in in nineteen eighty two Against the rest of the fields mathilde wholesale is open five and she did not participate in any slams this junior team. They really only played in three tournaments all year. They went four in three Finishing second to my rams fell who we just talked about at the braehead junior. They went to an seven at the European as which was good enough to qualify them for world's based off of I think draw shot challenge And they finished sixth at the world. Juniors Mitchell the Halsey does have Olympic Olympic experience. She played lead for meddling dupont at the last Olympics. I would say this is a team to watch for the future. I think also joined the European preview. Like they're they're not GONNA win this year but they're young. They've been getting a lot of good experience. They're starting to play on tour. Their record against the field is not great. I think they're actually winless against the field but There's still juniors and they actually even like their game at the Europeans where they played hustle. Berga it. They weren't you know chased off the ice gets. It was just the difference in terms of age maturity and those kinds of factors so for this year. No I think it's a team that in four or five years kind of mid twenties is definitely going to be a threat at the world's up next is team Kuba Scuba from the Czech Republic. They are seventy ninth in order of Merit. This is her fifth trip to the world's and her fifth Skipped Jonathan that makes her. The third most experienced skip in this tournament suspended the playoff once finishing sixth in two thousand eighteen. That is also the Czech Republic's best finish at a women's world's they are four in seven against the field. Most of those coming at Europeans. They do have a win against teams stern under their belts. No Slam appearances. Four in three at the Bernese Ladies Cup in January probably outside the playoffs looking in at the end of the week. Not Bottom of the table but if I be surprised in this field given the depth If they were able to qualify for the top six spot yet two thousand eighteen at worlds. That was a Olympic year. So you had a little bit of a watered down the field But they were able to make playoffs at your Up Next Tina Italy they came through the world qualification event. There seventy six in order of merit. This is the third trip. The world's for Veronica's opponent her first as skip no playoff appearances. Italy's best finish in the worlds was fifth in nineteen eighty. She is Owen. Four against the field. No Slam appearances. No events where they earned world Were new events where they earned W. C. T. points since participating in the world qualification event in January. They did make the quarter-final at the Bernese Ladies Cup Back in January. Yes again I'd say not not likely to make the playoffs. I think these teams the primary goal. Here's to pick up as many Olympic qualification points as possible but I think I can't see them making the playoffs this year up next team. Unh from Germany. Day finished fifth at Europeans to qualify for this tournament. Thirtieth in order merits a big. Jump there between the bottom three and these next three This is this is Daniele seventh. World's her sixth as a skip that makes for the second Most veterans skip this tournament. Her best finish though is only ninth three times the last time coming in two thousand nineteen. Germany has won two worlds. The last one coming in twenty tin She's five and eight against the field this year. She did go to one slam. That was the toward challenge. Tier two where they went one in three. They won the Bernese Ladies Cup. Consolation round back in January beating Jamison clear in the final. They went to ensue at the Glen Hill Ladies. They've lost and they're they're all of their losses at Europeans this year were to the fore playoff teams. Yeah I think the they'll pay off cusp. I would say like definitely for them. Finishing midfields probably likely. It'll probably be battling down to the final draw for that that six or seven spot kind of thing. This Knicks team is my team to watch. This is Han. You and team China. They won the PECC's She's twenty sixth on the Order of Merit her first trip to world's first time as a skip. China does have one world's gold medal coming back in two thousand nine Han You is five and six against the field. No Slam appearances Finished fourth this year at World She finished fourth at last year's world. Juniors throwing fourth stones More junior experience on this team Her Third Dong Zi. She finished third at the two thousand eighteen world. Juniors throwing fourth stones Zhang Lei Jun She was vice at the PAC season. They added Dogs Z. She In the middle of the year only went to two Canadian spills but made the semi-finals at Lloyd Minster and made the final in Moose jaw. I don't know enough about them to speculate. So it's a new. It's a new lineup for them. This year right is there for the First Year of the new coaching program with soaring. Ron is out the or thinking of Sarin teams tank. The country's he goes and coaches tend to rise up the rankings. Pretty quickly so I agree with you. There are team to watch. Although I know nothing about the team. I mean we knew nothing about them coming into the PAC's and then they went in one the thing but yeah they have a soaring drawn and of course pay Palin home now runs the whole program in China with soaring. Garon also also coaching team. So this will be a well. Coached team I I think they could do anything in this tournament. Really Yeah it could be anywhere. I think there there probably are not that well known by the other teams if they've only puts the record against the fios paid about eleven games against the field. Probably not super well known to the major teams in this field. I'd say Up Next Team Korea skipped by Jim on she They had to go through. The world qualification event which they won This is actually Jim on cheese fifth trip world her second as a skip she finished seventh in two thousand sixteen. The Best Finish for team Korea overall was last year. When Kim mingy finished third They are eighty three against the field of very good record against the field. Not Slam trips this year They got here. They've been team Korea all season They stole two in the tenth to beat him way back in July to become Korea Haven't played in anything that earned him points on the world curling tour since that world qualification event in January however they did participate in the made for TV Korean Curling League in February. Going three and three in the round robin that included included A Win over Kim Jong who? That's the garlic girls team that won silver at the Olympics back in twenty eighteen however they were oh into against Kim g The playoffs of the Korean Curling League were cancelled to to the corona virus. So that three and three record is for. Those are all the game that she's going to have from the Korean curling league a she also finished second to Kim Mingy at the Korean Winter Sports Festival in February. So they have been playing games But they've all been against Korean competition leading up to disadvant- fairly interesting to see I mean. Career teams lost few years of really posted very strong results at world championships and Olympic. So certainly a dangerous team. I'd say that we're GONNA be able to make it because of the corona virus. Yeah they They flew out to Canada a while back. I saw that posted on instagram. That they came to North America. Early of that. They're not about that angle there so that's good to hear and I'm sure I'm sure China does the same thing they've probably been. They've probably been in Canada for a while leading up to the leading up to the world's pervert nowhere near Wuhan province right in China's mostly located in the province so I mean it's widespread now. I don't think it matters where you are. I mean shoot even what the second the second most widespread country is Italy. I think yeah but northern Italy. Actually Italy might be in trouble because they're because they just quarantined and they actually are in the region. That was quarantined. So that's actually an angle. There too actually agree to shutdown Lamberti so worth yeah into Syria. Soccer's playing games in front of empty stadiums this week and I think they will be for for a while. Much of you heard the news. This morning Italy quarantined all basically all the north of Italy. So eleven provinces like talk million people under quarantine so that that actually might be an angle. Italy hasn't left yet. I'm pretty sure turns in the quarantine saw. Let me check that too. Will what really the thing is. Would I assume they're already in Canada? They wouldn't be. Would they be allowed back into the country? No no I don't know how it works here here. The issue is the UK if you fly in from country that was in a court. It's kind of flight is a quarantine zone can check at the airport. And if you don't have a fever and they don't you don't you pass the corona virus testing your order to self isolate. Stayed home basically for fourteen days. I didn't know how Italy's handling it. And that's how they're handling it here That will be a story to watch. We'll see if they mention it on any of the broadcasts up next US team. Russia skipped by Alina Kovaleva finished fourth at Europeans and beat Anisette Arava four games to one in their best of seven to become team Russia here at worlds. They are twelfth on the Order of Merit. This is the third world's for Alina Kovaleva. Her second as a skipped She's been to the playoffs making Finishing in two thousand nineteen best finish that Russia has produced at worlds was second in two thousand seventeen She is seven in four against the rest of the field played in one slam where they went four and two and Jonathan. This is a team. That's kind of been on the verge. And they're still looking for their their big breakthrough. Are they a medal. Contender definitely a playoff contender. And if you're in the playoffs your one win from the medal round so I I definitely would say their contender not a favorite. But certainly he said they're very solid and they're always making the playoff round these days Posting good results very steadying don't seem to rattle very easily so very much dangerous team but still a little bit of separation between them and the the more regular slam teams. That were turning to shortly. I'd say up next is the United States Skipped by Tabitha Peterson. They are tenth in the Order of Merit in Tabitha's been skipping all season. Nina Roth is on maternity. Leave When they started the year I think they kind of knew that this was going to happen so Tabas been skipping the team all year. Nina played Up until think November She and her husband welcomed their son On February seventh Yeah her last event was the autumn gold classic in October but Tabitha has been skipping and throwing fourth rocks all season. They beat Jamison Claire For the US title. This is Tabitha Peterson's fourth appearance at worlds. But her first as a skip the. Us's best finish at worlds was when they won in two thousand three. I believe that was Debbie McCormick. Who skipped that team So far this year they are foreign three against the field. They've played into slams where they have an eight two record. So very impressive record in the in the two slams that they participated in. I think I'm curious to see how they do. I think there's a good chance they medal this year This is probably the strongest. Us Women's team's been in generations. Debbie McCormick teams. Back AWHILE AGO. So this team. I'd say it's definitely a metal threat. Does it matter that you have a rookie skip? I think Tara has not taken rookie season. So I don't I'd gone and she's played in. Slams probably won a national championship. She's got a lot of experience playing in these kinds of events. So I don't I won't anticipate it being that big of an issue. I The more interesting thing is very posts. A really good result. What happens When we come back next year is it. Is it going to be a case? Like when Mark Mark Nichols took over for Brad. Everything just goes back to how it was or is it kind of open questions like when you're backup quarterback comes in and plays better than the starting quarterback is that kind of causes shoe so that'll be interesting Thing to see how that develops better Phil. I anticipate pretty well here this week. I don't think Nina will be drew bledsoe here unless they unless they unless. Tabitha wins gold. Maybe I don't know but I can't I can't imagine I can't imagine Nina playing the part of drew bledsoe to Tabitha's Tom Brady With this all right we'll see all right up next to Scotland. Welcome back in your head. They finished second at Europeans this year. They are ninth on the Order of Merit. This is Eve's ninth world's her eighth time as a skip making her the most experienced skip in the field. She's been to the playoffs four times. She won this event in two thousand thirteen. That was also the last time Scotland one world. They've done it twice in the last time was in two thousand thirteen with eve skipping. She's played other than team Hasselbald. Actually no she has played the most games against the field. She played twenty two games against the field. She has ten and twelve. Three slams not a great slam record this year. Only five and nine in her three slams CER- first time back at the world since two thousand seventeen when she finished third. And what's interesting to me? Jonathan got to be in the top six to make the playoffs. The only time eve has ever finished lower than sixth as a skip at the world's was her very first appearance in two thousand nine when she finished aches. Yeah so I I started. This team. Didn't make the playoffs. Yeah I it's A. We're kind of moving into the category. Now of not quite locks but pretty close to locks I. I don't want to jinx again after seeing a fair predictions for the Scottish Championship last year but There definitely playing a lot better this year. The back of the top ten in order of merits. They haven't had a signature tournament. Win this year right then no votes in slams and they were peons were. I guess I need. Then I'd say but in terms of tour season they're definitely kind of posting results again so I think they'll be gasoline in it for the playoff round after that. I think all bets are off one one of the OAKVILLE tournaments but that was back in August at that. Was this early season. And I'm a little skeptical just because the word that British curling program runs things as you're basically on the ice from mid summer so at five days a week training a lot of the Canadian teams. Don't get on the ice until very late summer. So the that got a six week headstart. You've been screaming against the other teams in the program. They're already pretty close to mid season form Whereas a lot of the Keating teams in Oakville are using that as their kind of breaking spill. So I take some of those early season results with a bit of a grain of salt. I think they're definitely better like I definitely better than they were. Last year was definitely an off season for for eve car recovering from the hip and actually be in contention come Olympic time. And we'll definitely be in contention this week. Bright top four of the order marriage was a bit of separation between the Scottish team in the top. Four teams yeah there's there's two teams in this field that I'm kind of pencilling into the playoffs won his team Hassel. Bergen one is team your head way. The hopefully that doesn't jinx her but I don't. I don't see this team missing the playoffs Up Next is team. Switzerland Skipped by a skipped by Elena stern throwing third rocks with Briar. Her lemon throwing fourth rocks. They are six on the Order of Merit. They are coached by Earl Morris in got them six in the Order of Merit. This is Elena first trip to worlds and I as skip Switzerland all they do is win worlds They've won this tournament. Seven Times including last year with team tyranny This team is six thousand eight against the rest of the field they did make it into four slams. Not a fantastic record. They went eight and eleven in all the slams and so welcome to prime time for team. Stern. I think anyone expecting jitters Obama's foolish teams have tendency of discarded showing up winning regardless of who it is like you said. I'm not sure if the favourite to vote is Pennsylvania's lock for the playoff round too but Yeah at that point. Is that point that you get the medal round in its you know? There's there's experienced in these big medal round games that stink might be a factor here but Reverend under treat them because they're rookies is Underdogs by any stretch of the imagination. Go drop parallel with the men's game. I'd say they're a bit like the Bruce Miller team of a few years ago. Where only kind of hardcore curling fans will know who they are but they'll probably show up post really good results and by the end of the week. Everyone's going to know who they are Up next team Japan skipped by Sukey. Fujisawa they are fourth in the Order of Merit. This is her third trips to Third trip to worlds and third as a skip. She's been to the playoffs once finishing second in two thousand sixteen. That is also Japan's best. Finish that worlds. She is seven intent against the field played in four slams posting a fifteen and eleven record in those slams. It's been a while since we've seen said Suzie Fujisawa at world's good to see her back and I imagine this team's GonNa do pretty well. I think very kind of a we are kind of a primetime team. Mcvay on bigger Vincent show up and play well together offense by the pressure. They actually accused ride slip. I'd say No one sixty runners pretty epic so I could see them doing something similar again this year. So I me one of the favorites. The metal up next is team. Canada skipped by Carrie Anderson. They are second Indie Order of Merit. This is her first trip to worlds. And I as a skip in you. Have you have three Three rookie three rookies on this team. In terms of the world's Shannon Burchard won gold as the alternate for team. Jennifer Jones in two thousand eighteen. Canada has won this event. Seventeen Times the last time coming in two thousand eighteen Terry Anderson is nine and five against this field played in four slams going twelve and ten like I said first time representing Canada at any. Wc event for Enersen. Sweetening and Brian. May you're The last time that a first time skip at world's fourteen candidate won. Gold was Kelly Law in two thousand. How much does it matter that? There's not a lot of world's experience here when you have the pressure of wearing the maple leaf only skip in this field. But it is eve shattering interesting stat right. That is really that is correct. So I think there's always a pressure when you can Canada and I think a lot more parody at the international level women's getting into the men's game and so can hasn't performed that well in the last decade even though they've had deftly Jones and and home have been to the kind of bored dominant Teams Woman's game of this decade despite that they can't as want less than half of the Game Salah world champion in the last decade I think Arnesen vets powerhouse team right missing from their resume was Wounded the Scotties took care of that but that bit of business and A renewed international audible for actually a very deep veteran team. Brian. How many incidents are GonNa go to see where come over over top there Also lost their up. The world mixed mixed doubles qualifier encounter with Brad. Brad Gesu. So she's you know basically everything you can do in curling a national title so I think that this is a strong team. It's not I don't think there's a fluky team to win a Scotties but this is a team. That's I'd say. One of the favorites for the Olympic representative have posted gruden goods also last few years so burr for showing up at winning a gold medal. First Time at a world championship and finally team Sweden skipped by Anna Hassle Board. They are first in the Order of Merit. This is her. Fourth trip. To the world's fourth as a skip. She's made the playoffs. The previous three times finished second the last two times Sweden has won eight of these last coming all the way. Back in two thousand eleven. That's kind of surprising She is fifteen and four against this field and This this next one's the incredible stat. Four slams twenty three and four in slams this year She is done every. Yeah she has done everything encouraging. Eighty four percent win percentage like eighty five percent right. Yeah she's done everything but win this tournament and she's probably going to win this term favorites. They they still WanNa win it. I think this is the one thing that's escape them. They've lost last year. Also go to an extra Austin Jones in an extra sauce was white right there. I went to an extra two. Didn't think it did. Yeah so it's not just lost two finals loss to world finals in an extra end. So they're right there. I you know I definitely separation between them and the rest of the field so there definitely the favourite win. The whole thing can't can't dispute that Logic Ryan. I think anything can happen here. You have you have seven teams in the top twelve in order of merit. You have six first. Time skips including three first. Time skips among among the top ten in order of Merit. I think this is GonNa be a wild tournaments other than I think you will see team. Hassle. Were Kinda separate themselves. I don't see them finishing anywhere but I in the round robin however single elimination tournament so absolutely anything can happen and I expect anything will happen in this tournament. I think so too. The one interesting is when they went to this sixties make the playoffs basically NFL playoff format. I was expecting more upsets. The come out of it and it hasn't really happened yet. The scarves embarked on with the page. Really does favor the team. That's more consistent over the weeks to get to kick the can of making the final so you don't have this year. He actually only got one kick at the. Can you get the best record all week? If you lose the semi final your toes so one of these years. Maybe not this year. I think we're and five or six seed is GonNa get on a hot streak when the three games after and win the championship that way. So your work poverty due for it but I Know Hassle. Borg's pretty dominant. Tim's record they've posted the last few years. So can you per se either since the only threat but the Games are paid on paper Ryan. They're played on the ice. I think there's I think there's a lot more threats than just carry Anderson. I think Fuji saw was a threat. I think teams. Stern is a threat. I I I really do think that this is. The hassle finally wins Wanted very badly to you because the only thing they don't have on their CV so give me a give me a team out of that top twelve. That could wind up finishing kind of low in the round robin and all of a sudden. They're our country is at risk of missing the automatic bid for the for the Olympics. Here County Olympic points right. That's interesting one this year this year and next year based on how you do it worlds this year and next year you earn points for your country to be one of the seven automatic qualifiers for the Olympics Give me give me give me a team that might Kinda slip in then. All of a sudden next year their country needs a really good result. In order to qualify. Could while other with two I would. I did you saw. I could see they can also see the missing the playoffs Cova. I can't see the moon. The whole thing winning a medal but he just the order of moral standings which I hate to do but they're they're the least best of the best of the worst of the worst of the best like S. I describe it. So they're they're technically that bubble team and so say Korea gets hot or China gets hot with which very plausible and post better results against Kovaleva in correlation struggles against the teams that are above the Order of merit standing. That's a pretty plausible way. That Kovalyov misses the misses. The playoffs We do you know how they're doing the points with China in this 'cause China hosting they. They already know that they're in the Olympic tournament. So are they doing this like one through twelve or are they not counting like China's points like if you get like the way it works what you get thirteen points for finishing first and then all in you go down from there to they light skip Janice slot or they just ranking the teams? That Aren't China one through twelve and assigning points. That way I don't know good question attorney just doesn't get points I don't know if the ranking is I don't know if I think it's the position you finish okay. So if China finishes say eighth than you're you're getting teams below them. Were getting one fewer point than if they just bumped everyone up right. Does that make any sense? I think so. I think you're about allocated points based on your position. I know what you're saying so so. China doesn't hold point. Yeah but China's definitely the carotene could show up qualify for playoffs and knock a team that needs points down to seventh array. Please give me a team outside of the top twelve in order of merit that we talked about so the the the bottom five I guess. Give me a team that you think has a chance to to make the playoffs a chance. Well I'd say outside of so between Korea. China Germany Italy Czech Republic Denmark. Yeah I would say Korea China and Germany. All are legit shots and making playoffs right yet. You engines experienced Severi veteran team. I think of these events. They're kind of streaky. Like they they you know. They had a really good run at last year's Europeans. Not so great. The world's Kind of down there so the day. So that's kind of a team that got hot. The definitely can kind of make a playoff run China. I don't know yet. I think they're kind of a team. I just haven't seen them play so they don't really have any insights in. Saugus going off the fact that Chinatowns the throat sent teams that tend to overperform expectations and then Korea. I think obviously does have a pretty good track record and they've posted some really good results internationally so Certainly a team. That's capable of making playoffs. Making a deep run. I'll take I'll take China. I think that that they they really impressed me. Pac's they're gonNA be very unknown by the rest of this field outside of team. Japan team Korea. And you've got Soaring in Paige as your coaches. I think that that team is going to do a lot better than than most people think in all. I'm with you I think I think Hasselblad the way they're playing in the motivation to win this tournament. I think that they I think they get it done. Yeah I think so too. Korea pick career. If you're picking China for the the kind of surprise play off all right. Good deal all right. So I'm I'm looking forward to it. there's a bunch of games available This tournament being held in Canada there. They've got a couple of trucks there so a lot of basically every time Canada plays you have two games available both because Tia. Tsn's broadcasting so you'll have a lot of games available both on Youtube in the states on Olympic Channel. Check your local listings and will will post the schedule as well so Enjoy it and I'm looking forward to it. Johnson. Yeah me too. It'd be good to watch them. Curling not geo locked curling those of us in Europe. So that'll be exciting. A broader good games at any thing I like about the events is world curling. Tv's a really good production broadcasts for Youtube. Strieber have good commentators so it's just as great quality so it's possible to watch Watson occurring in the world to sign yup. It's going to be some late nights though for me. That is in Pacific Time so a lot of late nights. If you're on the east coast if you're on the west coast Enjoy it or early mornings. If you're in Europe all right. Thank you and Willow next time we talk to you. We'll be reviewing this and previewing. The men's worlds. Thank you for listening to rucks across the pond. A curling podcast. You can find oliver previous episodes and blog posts at rocks across the Pond Dot Com. Please remember to subscribe on Apple Podcast. Google podcast stitcher tune in or your favorite podcast APP and leave review. If you enjoyed listening the greatest compliment we can receive is when you tell a friend about us. That helps us. Grow helps US share our love of this great game. If you have a common question or you just want to talk about curling you can email us. At rucks across the pond at g mail DOT COM or find us on twitter at curling podcast. We are also on facebook instagram at rocks across the pond. Thank you again and we will talk to you the yield soon.

Europeans Canada Jonathan Jonathan representative Denmark Italy curling England Tabitha Peterson Danish Championship Czech Republic Colleen Jones US Russia Alberta Calgary Qatar University of Calgary Ryan McGee University of Alberta
October 2, 2020 - Gillian Flynn on Amazons Pandemic Drama Utopia; October TV Preview

TV's Top 5

1:21:49 hr | 7 months ago

October 2, 2020 - Gillian Flynn on Amazons Pandemic Drama Utopia; October TV Preview

"Welcome, back to TV's top five, the Hollywood reporter's TV podcast I'm Lesley Goldberg West Coast TV editor at I'm joined as always my friend and Co host and Ta Jars Chief TV critic Mr Daniel Fienberg Dan how you hold up Oh, just building my Sukkur Leslie how `Bout You We had tiki drinks here at the house this week, which was a nice thing to accompany the shit show that was the debate. Britain. That you are talking about the beat yet. That's that's one of our topics don't get ahead of ourselves. Spoilers, Dan Spoiler. It's our. It's our first topic. You know if you're going to need to mute and duck out of the way but. There is lots of news this week. So yeah, that's what we call a transition. Leading off headlines and casting news newcomer Human Villani is joining the MC you and will star in Ms. Marvel. For Disney plus over at Peacock Hamilton Grad Rene at least Goals Berry will start opposite Sarah in. Tina fey comedy girls five. And this just an Keegan Michael key coming Fred Ormiston kristen channel with Jamie and Jane Kokoska have all joined sesame strong and apple's upcoming musical comedy from Lorne Michaels send me up for that based on the cast and creators along over it. NETFLIX's Netflix's developing a new live action. Conan the barbarian TV series and revealed that at this work family is ending after season five. These dreamers also teaming with the OBAMAS and Doc Mick, Stephen's Creator Chrisny for an animated preschool show. But allow me to be the first to say that I would really like Netflix to contact me when they're developing a new live action. Conan the barbarian series with the OBAMAS. Crossover Dan. Elsewhere, on the development front, the CW is teaming with Hillary Clinton and Steven. Spielberg. To adapt women's voting novel the Women's hour as scripted anthology. Hillary Clinton and the CW together at last. That was a long one in the works Dan I. I got tipped off that that project landed at the CW and development more than a year ago is gone through a couple of different incarnations since then they have new writer attached with it and and Amblin who option Spielberg's Amblin, which out optioned the rights to the book two years ago, originally planned it as a closed ended limited series or a TV movie, and now you're GonNa see a seasonal knowledge. If it goes forward I'm very disappointed. You work at a tell me the Hillary Clinton project was originally in development at up end. That's that's what I want. But. It look it's her first exact producing credit on a scripted show she's going to be very involved already involved in. Getting an getting the project setup at Amblin and helped pick the the the writer. WHO's GONNA. Do this too. Yeah. It's it's an impressive project over at HBO the Premium Cable Network has picked up a late night shows starring snl writer Sam j HBO has also Renewed Real Time with Bill Maher, through twenty, twenty two, and in other premium cable renewal showtime has picked up billions for a sixth season and Other News Gabrielle Union NBC have reached a quote amicable resolution to her lawsuit alleging racism on the set of America's got talent. No further details were provided to the surprise of nobody given the success of the launch of the second season of. The Boys Amazon is reading a college set spinoff of the boys for the future. Strangely, it will not be called the girls but do you know that it's a success I heard Amazon, say it's a success but have you seen any numbers ten hotly I have seen no numbers whatsoever and all I know is on twitter being vaguely unhappy that it's coming out weekly as opposed to all at once and some of the people who say that the best way to watch shows US weekly. So it's all very confusing but yes, I get the impression that at least in terms of conversation, the boys is a success beyond that who the hell knows. Exactly. Well, wrapping up headlines. High. Town Creator Rebecca Cutter has instant overall deal with producers Lionsgate. TV. Well with all that out of the way Dan. Let's dive right into this week's top five. Number. One. Leading off, you've heard US talk about it in the Intro it was shit show Donald Trump, and Joe Biden faced off in the first of three planned presidential debates this week and as CNN's Jake tapper describe it it was a quote a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck and quote Dan. This is making it to you for your thoughts. It was very bad. It was A. As that, that's the segment. It. was about as bad. A one hundred minutes of TV as I've ever watched and I watched the entire series round of mixologist. Four episodes of hater. I watch every single broadcast. TV show that premieres and band. This was excruciating I. Believe it was Dana Bash who actually used the shit show word on CNN and when you force a CNN anchor to say that something shit show. E. N. no, it's a shit show on on. Honestly. The debate set the American political discourse back. Centuries. You would think that we were unorganized country of imbeciles based on the conversations that were being had during that debate and I, mean, you know I I WANNA go as minimally partisan as possible because as I like to say I know we have Republican listeners but. The reality is Donald. Trump. Did Not come to that debate to debate political issues. He came to that debate to make Joe Biden look as senile. Dementia. Out, of touch. Communist as if those are things that are all connected as humanly possible, he did not want to have any conversation about any plans for the next four years. He wanted to Badger the Democratic candidate for president and whether or not you feel as if Joe Biden responded in any way. Eloquently is up to you he called the president shied. Occasional occasionally, he he called the president a clown and I've definitely seen some renting of garments from people feeling as if that was. Not, a dignified way to approach things as if. DONALD TRUMP INTERRUPTING JOE. Biden talking about his late son Beau, Biden by calling his other son Hunter A. Junkie. Wasn't some way dignified for the presidency Yeah, it was awful and so a lot of the blame has very, very justifiably gone to Chris Wallace who moderated the debate and is a veteran journalist who? Should have known better there. There's no other way of putting it. It is not as if this is Chris Wallace is first time at the Rodeo and I don't know what he thought. This was going to be whatever it is his job. If it is to moderate a conversation was not a job well done there is no alternative way of putting that you can place the blame on him if you want to or you can just say whatever happened, he did nothing to prevent it from happening however you want to decide. There were so many things wrong with what he did. He just half heartedly tried to interrupting the interrupting president and interrupting. Joe. Biden. He was just interrupting everyone because everyone was interrupting him and there was no way of getting anything on track whatever goals came into the debate trying to achieve heap failed every single one of them. So that's that's not a job well done but. The format gave him no way to fix what was going wrong and so that is also a problem that is completely out of his hand. Once you're on a barrelling training that is going without any track whatsoever, and it's desperately just waiting for inertia or a mountain to stop it I don't know what you can do. This was ninety even without commercial interruption which was already. Stupid, abusive and badly planned in a different world. Maybe you say there's a commercial break during your like ninety minutes with one interruption and that at least allows Chris Wallace to at say the thirty minute mark to go. WE'RE GONNA go to commercial a little bitterly to take five minutes to call everybody around and say kids if you can't play by the rules I'm GonNa have to take. My Ball and go home. But he had no opportunity to do that. There was no place at which he could have gotten on the phone to the Council of debates or whatever it is and said seriously, is there anything we can do? Can you turn off the microphones? Can you find some way to give the President Electric Shock? Every time he interrupts is there anything you can do? Because, it's not like you could have told Donald Trump to stop doing what he was doing because he just didn't care. That's that's what it is expecting him to care is a stupid stupid thing to expect. So yeah, this was badly structured debate that was horribly moderated and played directly into the hands of a president whose only goal taking that stage was to create chaos and he did it and I assume his supporters are pleased and he also failed to condemn white supremacy and instead use the platform as a dog whistle and you know the Commission on presidential debates has promised to make changes for the second and third debates to quote ensure a more. Discussion of the issues it's unclear what any of those changes are a Fox News Anchor Chris. Wallace gave a interview to the New York Times after afterward and noted that trump would not have been effective. So definitely go go and read that interview. And then in terms of the front of it, all the ratings were down from the record eighty, four million who tour tuned in to see trump and Hillary square off in two thousand sixteen. This week's debate carried across sixteen outlets live through seventy three, million viewers not including streaming. That's good enough for the second largest of debate in the past twenty years. So yeah, then. You'VE GOT TO OTHER DEBATES COMING UP Steve Scully of C., span will moderate the second town hall style debate on October Fifteenth and Kristen Welker of NBC News will moderate the final one on October twenty second. Kamala, Harris and Mike Pence will face off October seventh in a debate moderated by USA Today's Susan page. So more of this to come down and I don't know. I was glad that I was not sober watching this but I I can't imagine that I'm going to tune in for more. Are you? I mean I know you have to watch because you have to file the critics notebooks that you do. That you do so well with these. But we're you know if you had the option to not do this where you didn't have to write about this would you would you watch more of this? I would much rather have other alternatives but you know look seventy, three, million viewers, and again that's not including streaming, which is only going to have gone up since two thousand sixteen is a massive audience. There's just no pretending that people tuned this out two ND in for this. I kind of wonder if there had been able to be a half hour break if Chris Wallace had been able to say we're pausing now if people would been like. Literally. Anything else with my life but that's a lot of people watching a debate that is not A. By. Any way on a ratings for unto it's only a disaster on an intellectual front anesthetic front a cultural front a our society is falling apart all around us on seventy five different levels already front. It's just whatever whatever the bottom was. This took a assembly SAM style pick to it and just kept digging lower and lower and lower and lower, and eventually you hit. I don't know. Whatever's in the middle it. Awful. They this was this was just so horribly unpleasant and the whole. Of what undecided voter actually looks like and what an undecided voter might have thought about this, and the fact that the networks had to all find their five panelists of undecided voters who were giving their opinions on this. This is just so dire and so embarrassing and it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing on both sides I. It really is. It's embarrassing that this is where we are. In America, in twenty twenty, and this is what the world is regarding how our democracy works and I think we probably talked just about enough about this horrible horrible shit show. Yeah I found myself feeling the TV more than I probably have with anything else including dodger baseball. So yeah, let's go to the next stop at Conway. Up Next. It's October or so the calendar says and we're entering the seventh month of our new world, and yet there are still no signs that the networks in streamers are starting to run short of original programming Dan. You've got a lot of new high profile releases coming this month. So I'm just going to run a couple, and then we'll kind of preview some of the big big launches at you're looking forward to set on. netflix emily and Paris launches this week warrior return on cinemax showtime vows the good Lord Bird. Next makes its long awaited debut on Fox I was. Over a year ago long-awaited by WHO has waited. Box. People associated with the show I. Assume they're like seriously there's your show ever GonNa come out. Yes, it will. Yes. We held it because because of covid supernatural endgame resumes on the CW NBC bows its social distance scripted show connecting. You've got space drama the right stuff on Disney plus which was originally developed for nat go season two of the haunting of Hill House, which is now an anthology entitled the haunting of blind manner that's over net flicks. Dan The amazing race returned to CBS you've got Tyler Perry show called sisters launching on bt Star Trek discovery is back on CBS access. Hbo Max has the West Wing special and the reunion you've got the last of. Jeff Loeb's marvel originals Hellstrom over on Hulu grand on Netflix. I. Feel like we can do an entire topic on that on that show right now David? Burns American Utopia on HBO you've got a lot of scripted shows returning to broadcast with new episodes that were produced during the pandemic including the goldbergs in the Connors and blackish on ABC David Kelly and Nicole Kidman reunite for HBO's the Undoing Superstore Returns for its new season on NBC and of course, the month ends with the long awaited second season of the Mandal Orient on Disney plus Oh, no matter how shitty October is going to be baby iota will be here to save us all soon. Enough. Let's just a Just a lot of pressure to put on Baby Yoda. If anyone's up to the task. It's baby. Let's be clear. Yeah. I, find it very interesting. The mixture of things that we're getting this month I you know it's things that. Like next on. Fox. That had just been on the shelf that that's what it is. It wasn't necessarily in the shelf they were gonNA air it. It was going to be one of the bridge shows between last season and this year basically a late midseason slash summer burnoff, which is where they the networks a lot of broadcast networks put a lot of their less buzzy. Let's say it. That way shows that they picked up but this one Fox said early on like we don't know what's going to go on with the pandemic and as we've discussed on previous episodes here, they said were rather than burning this off early in the pandemic with n without knowing what shows we`re Going, to have for when we are going to save this and air this in the fall and that way, we can guarantee that we will have new scripted originals airing in the fall and probably maybe not at a time when other networks are going to have it and yes, it was a safe bet at the time. But now you're also seeing ABC and a couple of other networks that are actually going to have new episodes right and and that's making that what you will, and that's what I'm really looking forward to I'm looking forward to seeing what those things look like much more than I'm necessarily looking forward to seeing a lot of the stuff that was done in. This season of the amazing race. Has Been in the can for a while and yes, I'm looking forward to watching it because I, always watched me. Amazing, right. So I'm happy to do it. That's not going to give me any indication about a changing world whereas seeing what the Goldbergs, the connors and blackish looked like what superstore looks like what anything looks like is. It's the big mystery I. We don't know you can go back to our interview in last week's podcast with no holly and he talked about shooting the last two episodes of the Fargo season basically double time after. Coming out of quarantine and he didn't really seem to know if it was going to be noticeably visual, visually different for audiences. Sounded like he didn't think it was going to, but you just can't guarantee that and so. Are you going to be able to watch these episodes and go. They're kissing less than they used to or. The school has fewer people in the hallways or are you just really not GonNa notice or are you going to be so grateful to have these things back that you aren't GonNa care and I think those are all. Viable questions and I think those are things that we're going to be asking ourselves pretty much nonstop on TV for the next couple of months is is does this look different? Does this feel different and most of the stuff premiering in October really, and truly is not going to look or feel different at all because it was mostly. Just before the pandemic or sometime before the pandemic and was just ended during it and so something like the right stuff for good Lord, bird or whatever. Those are shows that were from before the pandemic, and they just had time to do special effects haunting apply manner. They just had time to edit it and so no one's GonNa notice the differences there and those are a few. Of the big things that I'm looking for looking forward to seeing and. But there's there's a lot of that and then there's also the few. Sort of, I would say genuinely badly conceived shows that are being treated as we film this during the pandemic and it's basically our zoom show. So something like connecting on. NBC. netflix's has gingy Cohen one. Social Distance Yeah and I don't I. Don't know that. I really care about those at all and not just because I saw love in the time of corona and coastal elites and so free foreign HBO. Yeah and I have a sense of what those things look like and based on those I have no desire to see other things. So maybe I'm going to watch a show like connecting on NBC or social distancing on Netflix and see okay. Is this going to be the thing that actually cracks the formula and that actually is aesthetically interesting or thoughtful or contemplative or good? I'm not holding my breath but I'm I'm curious. I just don't need it I don't I don't require more zoom in my life I have plenty of zoom in my life. It's too much zoom. So. Yeah. I. Don't I don't know really why anyone thought those things were good ideas part of why they thought it was good ideas because they weren't sure. Production was to begin in August, or September or October, and they just needed to ever enforcement. So there's there's a lot of. Of that, and so it's just a wide mixture of things that are going to be basically TV as usual things that are going to be. Quarantine Strangeness Things that are going to be post Corentin e strangeness I've Loved All of the actors on social media posting various pieces of video and images of I know director's chairs separated by. By plastic screens or? Did you see did you see Mandy Moore I think his US first of all she's pregnant. So congratulated her but also having to go and shoot this while she's pregnant and and in these kind of you know that that's that's A lot but it was crazy. It looked like many toilet stalls that they've created for the for the cast all hang out. Together but not together. Yeah and then there was a great one from one of the actresses on the goldbergs Haley who gave up a whole set tour of what the process is like and everything else, and that was eye opening to say the least and so yeah and so seeing what the actual fruits of this are. It's could it be worth it? I mean it's going to be awful because not like qualitatively it's could be awful. If you're sitting there thinking man this thing they're trying to do on the other hand it's also still optimistic it saying we're getting back to work it saying not business as usual, but people will get paychecks and so. That's good. We want these things to work. We want everyone to go paychecks who want everyone to get healthcare. We want everyone to also stay safe. Yeah. There's octa October is gonNA. Be the start of a few months of very interesting and mysterious looking television where you're going to really just have to pause on almost everything you're watching going when was this made? How was this made? Do I care or or do I have enough suspension of disbelief where I'm just GONNA be able to go. Thank. God the Goldbergs back. Thank God the Connors is back I I'm just I'm happy and I'm watching it and I which I did to some degree with with Sunday's return of Fox's animated shows which those things had been in. The can obviously because that's how animation works. But even still there was something so good about okay. It's a Simpson's episode period nothing nothing strange nothing unusual. It's just okay. Bob's Burgers. Thank God. You know. So there's a lot of that and I think we all need. The distraction even if people like us aren't going to be able to be fully distracted by anything, we're always going to be looking for. The guy with the thermometer on the corner of the screen going you have a one degree fever time for you to go home. You know that that's always GonNa be in the background of some viewers, minds and three cheers for anyone who's actually going to be able to. You know. To simply lose themselves in television because they'll that. For sure and you know we have done a ton of reporting on this. There's a great story in the site that I reported with Lacey rose about how this is from a couple months ago about how show runners were thinking of returning and what? They are trying to avoid you know so. Even during pilot season, I remember doing a casting director survey that was obviously killed by the quarantine where you had a casting director say even during pilots in February early March, they were already trying to avoid doing crowd scenes. So yeah I think it'll be interesting to kind of monitor to see like the goal has kids that are in college, right? So are you not gonNA see. A House Party episode last season rights or you're GonNa are you not GonNa see that anymore? One Grey's anatomy returns. I'll be curious that it's look it's a medical drama, but it's also a soap with a lot of love scenes that something when the show was bounced back tonight, the nine pm our recent you know not too long ago. Christopher enough said, she wanted to bring the love scenes back to that show. That'll be a great question going forward. So definitely something to monitor especially broadcast where you're going to see the first immediate result of filming during a pandemic so. To keep an eye on. Number three. Up Third, it's time for another mailbag segments. We put out a call on the twitter and you guys came through some very good questions and we always appreciate that a reminder if you have questions, you'd like us to answer emails at TV's top five at T. H. R. dot com, our I e mail comes from mark who asks pretty bluntly how does Netflix's keep throwing billions of dollars at new content and they're only return is subscriptions is they're going to be a point at which their money runs out. That's the billion dollar question there mark. I don't understand Netflix's built business model. And I'm not alone in that thinking. Original. Content budget was over twelve billion dollars. The last time that I saw and you've got some of these big expensive shows that come and go in a week or two in their out of the conversation cycle, which is the downside of the binge model. I mean nine figure deals netflixing Jonah and the game of thrones guys, and it's just you know. I don't know how that works. I. Truly don't, and is there going to be a point when their money runs out eventually they're going to have to come calling right. But at the same time, they keep these shows around for two three. Maybe if you're lucky four seasons and they kill him before they get super expensive. So maybe there's a method to the madness I. Don't know the answer your question is I have no. Idea and that transitions smoothly into a question from listener donny who emails with the news of yet another Netflix's cancellation, and this was referring to dark crystal Egypt resistance. Do you see a future where people stopped bringing their television ideas to Netflix's these streamer has developed quite a reputation for killing shows after one to two seasons and they're notorious for keeping creatives in the dark and reporters also, I should add as far as numbers go. With, all the other streaming cable and broadcast options I would anyone want us health her show to net flicks unless it's a last resort. pull. They're still paying a lot of money, right? So it's rare that you find. We have an interview coming up shortly with Gillian Flynn from Utopia who talks about working at HBO and taking the show to Amazon and encountering a series of budget issues. When you have a company like Netflix, these are people who are saying, make the show make it right. Let's make it look as great as possible, and then they have different business models. Right? They WANNA make a family multi-candidate low budget or they WANNA make a high end limited series like Hollywood that spends a lot on casts and costumes and locations and sets you know they can make. Things at different price ranges. So why would anyone want to go to there while they still are the biggest platform globally right now even counting the fact that broadcast can can has the potential to reach a broad audience but Netflix can make a hit where some of these other networks can't you know I I always go back to to show like Greg Berlanti you lifetime aired the entire first season nobody noticed they reverse course on the renew wall the show hits net flicks and blows up and becomes a huge hit, and now it's a netflix original because they. Took a guess and and bet on season two based on the creative and knowing what their members like because they have all their secret data. They made that show into a hit and whereas lifetime couldn't and they didn't have the the market, the show and I think that's another gripe when you hear a lot from creators is. NETFLIX's spend money to market the show for its premiere, but then it just fades away into the background into another square box on your screen. So we know we'll people stop taking their shows there. I don't know I. Guess IF THEY WANNA make their show and Netflix's offering them money to make their show that they won't. But I think the bigger thing is that that's changing in our industry is how many years people want their show to go on? So if it's a show that. You'd think as ten season plan and you can get it on set at a broadcast network that's going to be a huge cash cow because you still have all the global rights and everything else and and then you have a streaming streaming deal that will come from that later down the line even if it's in the same companies streamer, but that's all revenue to A. Creator whereas if you sell a show to Netflix, it's all included you get back in buyout. So yeah, I I don't think people are gonNA stop taking their shows to Netflix's I do think because a lot of creatives want their shows to get made if Netflix's offering you the chance to be on the biggest platform in the world right now, people are going to end. Up next friend of the five, Allen seven wall emails I'm wondering when or if we are going to see a fuller impact of the production shut down on the amount and kinds of scripted programming we are getting. He knows that a lot of broadcast shows went back into production in recent weeks, which we just talked about in our second segment and I know that we'll get new episodes in November what about cable streaming is they're going to come a point in early twenty, twenty one when HBO or an ethics simply runs out of original programming for a while or was the backlog of shows produced before March of this year. So great that there's a chance. We may not run out of things. I think this goes down to a lot of what we were talking about. The last segment is that it's going to be a hodgepodge for a while and that's what it's going to be. We're we're not running of programming and we're especially not running out of programming. Assuming that. These shows that are returning to production actually are able to stay in production that that they don't have to shut down because of. Entirely foreseeable but awful thinks. So let's cross our fingers on that and that also assumes that there's not a situation in which everything needs to shut down because that's also of course, an entirely viable possibility that either. A second third fourth whatever you, WANNA call the wave of this comes back or a particularly bad flu season or whatever it is. Or someone test positive or as seen this weekend in Vancouver a lot of shows had to stop production or couldn't begin production because there was a testing backlog number of reasons that could that things could could wind up going off the rails but but let's let's just pretend that it's simply going to mix for the next for the foreseeable future really of of the handful of shows that are not really handled dozens of shows that finished production in. February march right up to the edge. Before and there were done, you know and so and so they had all this time for post-production. Everyone's been doing post production in quarantine in their own complicated ways, and so they'll be those and then they'll be the new stuff that's made under different circumstances and then we're also going to see if. The shows that I mentioned about the show is that basically you know zoom shows. If someone thinks that there's a reason to keep development pipeline open on shows like that as a just in case you know are there people saying we want to have these? Five scripted shows that we know we can shoot a vacuum and we were going to have the scripts, and if we need to pull them out and we need to start doing that, that's what we'll do and so I really don't think we're in any danger anytime in the foreseeable future of running out of TV. But it's just going to become. An. Array of things where you don't instantly know when or where it's coming from, and so yeah, I I I mean Dan don't forget Netflix said early on during the pandemic that they had enough content original content to go through I. Think it was at least midway through two thousand, twenty one they still have the new season of the crown and there's a Shonda rhimes show Richardson coming this year here there's a lot going on and I think there's a lot of other things you know that that's the other problem that when you are in a TV landscape is you have no idea Who has what show and what where they are in various level stages of production because there's just too much content to keep tabs on you know like Shonda has a whole sleep right for using her as an example she has nine chosen in the works at Netflix you know most of those were announced more than two years ago will where are they in filming all of these like how close are they on on some of these projects that have been announced that we don't know what's going on you know it's just there's just too much and it's worth and it's worth. Remembering that different countries are resuming production at different rates. So if if New Zealand is back in production on things like the Lord of the Rings Amazon, show and things like that. then. That's worth. Programming GonNA come from, and if other countries are basically back to business as usual because they did different things from us, maybe we will start seeing more and more acquisitions starting to come in when that starts being what the pipeline is at so. There's no one answer I continue to believe that I will have things to talk about on TV at least for the near future. I will knock on wood that that near future extends a year into the future or longer and then. God willing everything will be. Okay and we're still writing about new series that are getting picked up and castings that are getting put in place, which means people ramping up production like you're not going to cast the show. Until you have a calendar of when you're looking to film. So that every time you hear casting story to me, it bodes well for for our industry. So and you just as you said Dan, you gotta knock on Wood that that everything continues to go well and go smoothly and that everyone can can remain safe and healthy. Our next question should have a short and simple answer Sam emails can you address the status of the Orville this season and future? What's while the orval moved from Fox to Hulu I WANNA say two years ago A. Year ago because they couldn't the show, the Seth Macfarlane Live Action Show couldn't film the new season based on when Fox would have wanted it to return. So it moved to Hulu which of course, has had a ton of success with another Seth Macfarlane Show family guy which remains one of the biggest acquired shows that that does well on that platform and as I understand it, the new season was about halfway done with filming when it was shut down alongside everything else during the pandemic. Expect that in two thousand, twenty, maybe twenty, twenty one. But yeah as for additional seasons beyond that, that's a great question because that show is produced by Twentieth Century Fox TV Aka Disney. It's for a platform Hulu, which is also owned by Disney and Seth Macfarlane. As we noted, a couple of months ago, signed a two hundred, million dollar overall deal with not. Disney left Disney for universal for NBC. Universal. So great question on if seth is going to put in the time to do another season of that show after completing the one that's already in the works but he loves the show he's very passionate about it. It'll be a great question. So there's the update on one the new season's coming as for the future wait-and-see. And let's close with a couple of fun ones Dan friend of the five Chris Hanner emails what Disneyland Ride would make a great limited series at Fx. I will let you give your answer. I. Because I'm going to steal it in piggyback off at. Disneyland Nerd I grew up in Los. Angeles. I'm a native I love Disneyland. I've been going all used to go three or four five times a year used to have a season pass I. Love Disneyland I got my wife proposed to me at Disneyland the First Time We said I love you is at Disneyland. That is a special place for me and one that I miss very very dearly with all that said my favorite ride. There are among them the matterhorn I love that right? It's creepy and it's weird has choppy and it's fun and you just it's just exhilarating. So I would like a dark and twisty version of the matterhorn. On and I'm going to piggyback off that by saying that I would like to use a matterhorn related. Project to kind of do almost a back door adaptation of the Dan Simmons Novel The abominable because while that technically is about To Climb Mount Everest I think that there's a lot of that that can tie into the mythology of the matterhorn. Also, I would like to do something where you can resurrect. Splash mountain and not need to deal with song of the south anymore so I understand that they're doing it that they're turning it into a princess and the frog, but I would like to find a way to. Kind of I what did you say you give the princess and the frog, its own attraction and you find a way to save splash mountain from song of the South. So I think that would are just Gimme me a making of show about transforming the ride because I would watch that on Disney plus which did you watch the what was the Disney documentary of the documentary? The imagineering thing. Yeah. That was so good man. It was good. If you like extended commercials for all things Disney, which is total feared Disney nerd and you want to understand the history of the rides in Walt Disney's original conception and seeing some like Tokyo Disney belt and and the behind the scenes dealings of the rides and the construction and the imagineering. The executives behind it if you're at Disney nerd watch that show. So I would watch chapter of of that on fx about this new construction and how they're going to work that. Okay I think we can keep thinking about this and you can also check out criticises twitter feed Because he got a lot of very, very, very involved answers from very, very nerdy people when he posed the question on twitter last night as well. So there's my fellow theme park friend Chris Hainer. If you're into theme parks all of that stuff he is a must follow. He's also a good man. So give him a follow at Christner true story and the last question for our mailbag and seriously. Good questions in this week I. Think we have a few more that we can get to next week. This comes from a Listener Devon who writes you have a one hundred million dollar budget for an eight to ten episode season you get to pick one show runner and one star go. I'm going to blow my budget and look for collaboration between Shonda rhimes and Ryan Murphy at Net flicks and I want them to cast a newcomer that launches their career and use that platform to to launch a new a new star. I like this question because it's it's sort of a it's a money ball general manager kind of question because it becomes a question of how do you Allocate resources and I think the question kind of assumes that the location is going to be sort of a half and a half thing, and that's how you end up with the show like I don't know maybe the undoing where you have David Kelly, and then you have choo grants and Nicole Kidman, and that's where your budget goats that's pretty simple and straightforward, and so Leslie's answer kind of inverted to one side, which is put all the money with the creative geniuses and then find new people. To some degree I fear that that's how you end up with something like the romanoff's and so I And so I'm inclined to be a little bit worried because then the answer is like, okay we're going to give one hundred million dollars to Matt Winer and let him travel the world and let's see what happens. What could go wrong giving any money to Matt Winer. Let's be clear. To entirely fair so I think I. might want to go the other way which is defined a sort of a great young. Voice and. You know maybe maybe underpay that great young boys a tiny bit, and then you know see who the movie stars are who we haven't gotten to do TV yet. So I'm thinking, can we get Katori Hall to write a show? For Denzel Washington I think that's a thing where you could. You could still pay Katori Hall fairly well, and then you could you know we'll the brinks truck up to Denzel Washington and. I. Think you could make that happen. Also. I would just watch Denzel Washington on Season Two P. Valley from Katori Hall because I am obsessed with her I am obsessed with that show and she was great on our on our pod Dan. She was indeed. So so I think that's one approach. I like the idea of going through the checklist of the quote unquote movie stars who haven't done TV. So it's sort of you know who is the? Who is the Gingy Cohen Acolyte who you could get to write a script that would allow us to bring Tom Cruise Jennifer, Lawrence to TV you know I'm just. When you look at the number of people at this point who we haven't yet gotten the opportunity to do a press tour panel will say, so why are you doing TV now? I WanNa make sure that we get all of those people out of the equation that we just simply say okay. Now everyone has done TV and we can go back to our lives because everyone wants to do TV. So it's Who can we find who can? Take very little money to do a script that in some way brings together Jennifer Lawrence. Who of course did the billing vol show? We all know this And Tom Cruise and see you know it's a checklist life is a checklist. Let's check off the last few quote unquote movie stars that we haven't gotten the TV. Reminder is Dan said if you have questions you like this, here's address on the on the show. Please drop us an email at TV's top five at tea HR DOT com that's the number five. Up Next, it's time for our show runner spotlight segments. Number. Four Our guest. This week is Gillian Flynn, a former entertainment, journalist author and current show runner and creator of Amazon's Utopia. Flint has written the novels, sharp objects, dark places, and gone girl adapting the ladder for the big screen and working on the HBO Mini Series Adaptation of sharp objects. Welcome to the PODCAST Gillian. Thank you so much for having me. So getting started. Utopia started back in two thousand fourteen when it was set up with David fincher at HBO, and we'd heard at the time it was cast with Rooney Mara set the Star and then obviously, it kind of fell apart over what I heard at the time were budget issues. How tough was all that and when you look back at the at the whole experience having completed the first season. What was the? Experience like for you and what was the takeaway address? The first question? Yeah. It was budget issues. We just couldn't. Couldn't quite get on the same page. And we had created basically a road picture where we're burning a lot of buildings down as we went along and. Know it was just a a certain cost and and we never got there but it was. You know it was. I was. Deep Hole for a little bit just because. I'd already written the scripts and felt like it was going to go and I loved working with David again and that was. One of the you know the reasons I put off writing the next novel was you know just the excitement of getting the work get the band back together he had introduced me to way back when we were still filming gone girl, and so I've worked on a long time with this idea that we would get towards gathering gone girl had been such a dream that. I was like that was easy like. It turns out that whole mythology about novelist to Hollywood and having a tough time is totally wrong like those great. Sir Easy. What are they talking about? And then I came to the reality. So it was hard. It was hard but I was really really lucky to. Get that chance with Amazon, you know we had a lot of non takers because it's a you know when we are back shopping again and you know it was you know as violent and disturbing and has a female heroine that my God God forbid you can't root for. And you know it was not an easy sell but I really really good home at Amazon and they were. Just down with it. So that was lucky and so I guess the takeaway as to my big one was to just appreciate when things get made. That is sort of magical that projects get made them, and if they get made and you're happy and it's what you intended to do it's all the more. Magical ultimately. Right and it did obviously land at nine episode order and that was even reduced down to eight because I think it was budget issues again, I mean it just feels like it's increasingly hard to make a show and this is not uncommon I should I should note that to whether it be at Amazon are just in this streaming universe and even cable university happens on Fx shows all the time. But what what has been? Is. It is this just because of the rising cost of making a show when you especially when you bring in a star like John Cusak. What is it? I mean this has happened to you three times now unsafe show. Well the budget was reduced before Kusak and before rain were even cast, it was just that you know it was an expensive expensive show and I think with an untried show runner never done a show before. So I have to appreciate that they give gave me that opportunity in that shot and and with the material that you know is is not an automatic. GimMe it's. Difficult sometimes dark stuff that's not guaranteed to please every single person in the universe So And it was it was still expensive to make you know so. I think that was the case of this show at least. Will you say that you had ten episodes the you'd already written for the HBO version how do those compare to what you ended up actually shooting for Amazon and when you were trying to pitch at other places was it an asset or was it in some way to your detriment that you actually had those ten episodes finished and you thought you wanted to make those? By that time and we were pitching nine episodes because in trying to get to the HBO Budget We had already dropped an episode. And so pulled out some plotlines I pulled out some characters shortened certain ARCS. So, it was nine episodes as we were pitching it and They didn't change much to lose. Admittedly, on my part, you'll notice that episode five, a lot of things happen. I was. Very insistent on keeping the first three episodes exactly as they work they really really love them and I was fine with kind of plane with some of the backstory. But you know another character got taken out and but otherwise. As far as the essential material the only thing. That substantively changed when I went to Amazon, was to move it. I had set it originally in the near future situation like ten years in the future so. Hilariously when I started writing in two, thousand, thirteen. I had I had said. It'll be twenty, twenty three now. As low as twenty twenty, and so it was not near future anymore. I change things like at the time. When I was writing it, I've been obsessed with water shortages and La was under you know California was undergoing that huge drought and people weren't washing their cars and I'm from Missouri is just washing but the. And and and that sort of thing and I. Think. I can't remember it was a Cape Town where they're doing everyone doing a countdown to when they were officially going to be out of. Water. And so I had things like Everyone was inspired from the time a lot of books about London during the war where when had to use coins to get their gas turned on. So I had that water where you just you can't turn on the tap water. So you have. You. Put The coin into get water and and that's why there's still that scene where. We're grant gets into the pen pals and turns on the big bathtub and is so excited Well, that's originally why he was so was he had never experienced having to be NFL bathtub but I still liked that scene so I kept it. Will now. When did David cease to be able to do it and do you have any sense in your mind having worked with him how it might have ended up differently if you'd had him rather than the team of directors that you ended up having? Well I mean. It would have been. What about David Fincher? So which would have been too you know. You can't imitate him at all. So I wasn't trying to when I started again, I felt like it would be no good to try to do that. But I I certainly, it was interesting because I certainly wrote it originally for him you know I was. I had read gone girl undeveloped it with him and works closely with him and. Seasons because just because I knew he'd liked the. He'd like to film than I could see them and so when when we were redoing now with an amazing group of directors including Tony Toby Haynes, who did four episodes and his just a wonderful wonderful director what I kind of took my cues from. was. Obsessed with in the first place TWAS conspiracy and I like that idea of I love all those seventies conspiracy thriller that came out after. Watergate. Parallel view and all the president's men and when I pitching to studios, I, was calling it. Is goonies, meets marathon man. Who doesn't want to see that mash up a? goonies. My kids favorite. I got introduced introduce my kids the other day. It was a huge. But yeah, so I I was. Talking to the like. To have that Phil. I. Want it to be you know gritty and textured and. Full of different angles and shot through windows and reflections and mirrors. So there's always something to look at it and certainly with the wonderful are dirt or Steve Arnold we worked a lot about what can be in the background and my props department and you know what a little Easter eggs everywhere. So that if you want pas the shot, you can see certain little clues and little things. You don't need them to understand the conspiracy, but if you want to get into it, they're they're. Asking the big question here. This is a show about. A global. Pandemic. that. Premiered during a global pandemic. Obviously when you're writing this and filming this and shooting this, it's it's the farthest thing from from your mind. But can you talk a little bit about having this show come out right now and there's a disclaimer that Amazon puts out in front of episodes emphasizing that this is not based on an actual pandemic which is. As Dan and I said it it's nightmare inducing. So I mean you need talk about the impact of dropping this show during a pandemic like this I mean it's you know where people are starved for new content and yet. Yeah I. I was struggling a little bit to watch the the first couple episodes. So yeah. Yeah. We came to the thought that you know that. People who who really were going to be affected by felt too close of home. We kind of accepted that they might not watch a now maybe they'll watch it later maybe will never watch it. and. and but that. You know it was never intended to be a pandemic shows. Certainly, it's not. You know it's not outbreak. It's not is not falling the procedural of pandemic. It's the story about conspiracies and pandemic is in the plotline. So you know that that hopefully people are link. There's enough there that people are linking onto other things and it doesn't feel too overwhelming. But, it's still you know you're in February and March and I assume at that point you guys were in the editing process. What does it feel like from your perspective wins suddenly you're turning on the news and they're showing safer example, a picture of a virus and you're like, Oh, we have people discovering a picture of a virus that looks a lot like that in a comic book. This is strange. What does that feeling like and especially when you're moving from editing In an editing studio to doing it remotely. it was I was a smug American I was be knows sitting there going you know we're hearing about this outbreak and you know but it was. Of like Oh. That's You Know I. It's never gonNA come here. It's not gonNA reach here it'll be it'll be figured out and isolated and I you know I really thought that we haven't had a pandemic in one hundred years. And you know I was I was going back and forth to La. Editing was You know semi weekly and. All. Remember it was. Into March and I was still sort of like you know. Okay, you know I'll see guys next week and then everything shut down and. So it was that late into the process and then we are editing remotely. From are just from our laptops and you know. The new I had the news on twenty four seven because that was at that moment where we're all trying to figure out exactly what it was and. How dangerous it was where what to do about it you know all the precautions. So I'm like is that like microwave my kids and I- windex all. Bleed, mail, what are the rules and? Looking up at the you know looking at my screen and Sane Rainn Wilson and his house Matt suit and the House Own, and then you know looking at the TV screen and seeing you know things that were wages similar you know happening in New York and. it was. The word surreal is overused but I can't think of a more appropriate word for it. It was it was very surreal. Did you was there any conversation or what were those conversations like with Amazon when it came to discussing how you market the show and even if you can premiere the show, did you talk about delaying this at all? I did not talk about that with them. You know that I, love to their decision because they know better than I am. But certainly had lots of conversations. About. You know do we acknowledge the coronavirus? Do we put in Agr? That mentioned it among the other diseases. You know that that are in Utopia? And decided no, we would know. That it felt. A little icky and. So you know really made that choice to just continue with it exactly as it had had been intended to be originally. So there were there were no points of people looking at certain beats and saying this is being played for dark comedy here. Can we laugh at this now? For example? No No. The short answer was really you know we're just gonNA continue as it is we had we had the film it wasn't like we were going to be able to do re-shoots or anything. So it wasn't. You know it was the conversation was more or going to make the. We're going to do this as best as we intended to make it and and then we'll. The finale does set set the show up for a second season without spoiling anything here but. As you talk about or or I would presume pitch a second season to Amazon. Have you thought about if your show exists in a world where covert exists considering? You made the decision to not incorporated. into. Season One. I showed how that conversation my writers of a very good point. Certainly will. Not Be. A major plot points, but we do need to decide boy world. It is because the world has changed so much uncertainly were acknowledging that piece of it. And kind of where we are right now. And it's been interesting to see. You know the some of the conspiracies that have popped up around covid fill. Very. Much like some of the conspiracies that I had written and you know Johnny Kuzak and I had talked a lot about. What has catered to Christie you know who was his vibe? Who is who is he like an and I was like, Oh, you know kind of think of Bill Gates like he's Kinda like the superstar. Unlikely superstar, of the Tech. Biotech world. and. Then all these conspiracies started coming up you know there's a line in there where he says. You know this is a this is a a right wing conspiracy anyone who's blaming me for this virus and then here's this. Bill Gates theory that he's created this fire. On purpose some of the scenes, some of these things come to life has been very, very strange. But there's still the you see it's on twitter and everyone else people sort of going I used to like. Virus movies or whatever, and now I discover. Okay. The failure of imagination because nobody could have anticipated that people would stubbornly refused to wear masks out of political reasons or sort of things like that where we're our ability to fathom of things ends does that extend into the writer's room where you're going? Okay. Well okay. The first time around here's how we envisioned how world would respond to a virus attacking cities. Now that we've seen how people actually do respond, how do we respond to that? Is that a part of what you have to do? You know I'm not planning on continuing and and this is all you're talking like, we're. So early in the process so early so I really can't speak to too much of season two of what it will be because I feel like it's all going to be it'd be changing drastically. But. But. Certainly. Were very aware of of where the world is right now. Is that supposed to reflect where we are as a society and how we treat each other and there's no better measure of that. Then when we fill under pressure and that you know our lives are at stake and seeing those different reactions you know is definitely informative you mentioned, John. cusack. A few times and we're on this conversation. We're all the same generation here and we all grew up on certain kinds of roles from him. What is the rush me holding the boom back over head of one of my favorite movie scenes. Pop culture scenes ever. Sure Lloyd Dobler was GONNA be my prom date shirt. I. Married Lesbian version of Loyd doppler well then. I need to think about that of so. So, what is kind of the rush from your perspective generational e speaking of getting to have John here, and getting to give him this particular kind of role. Yeah I mean. It was really cool I've never once made my role never wants to go about Too much about say anything because he was doing the twentieth or twenty fifth anniversary tour last year. And I think he you know. He was. He didn't need to talk about it anymore with me so. So I didn't need to tell them about my crush on him and as in highschool or play. Tone. That literally our problems long was. Your eyes. But. You're classes. But. I loved loved it. Because I feel like you know for a while he'd been our generations you know I, he was the teen and then he was kind of like the twenties thirties. Cool slacker hipster. gen-x dude. But we've never really seen him as a grownup. Fully like captain of Industry Family Man. It just felt like a cool different role in that way even to begin with and then he he's super cerebral guy and I knew that he could pull that roll off and we had so many interesting conversations about you know what would be the vibe of Christie in which different historical figures you know he might reflect. They you know that you wouldn't think of. And and so that it was just a real kick. You know you mentioned I just want to go back really quickly. You mentioned that you are already talking about what the plan for season two is and how a real world predicament to say lightly. Affects it. But do you have a long term plan for how many seasons you would like to see the show go and how did that change? As a result of the pandemic. And it was originally pitched as three seasons. I pictured it kind of as a trilogy. But that was way back HBO and they're the true answer is. I don't know. I don't know how many seasons it is. You know it's it's it is kind of. We have to wait and see how unravels. That's Hollywood right. Yeah. You know looking ahead to you've also as part of the show landing Amazon, you have a, you signed a first look deal with the streamer. What else are you working on a? Are you looking to adapt any of your other works for the streamer or you developing new material for TV? Like how do you make that distinction between what you want to write for TV versus what you want to write as a novel? I mean those are great questions because you know certain ideas that are floating around in my mind and there's a you know every once in a while I think you know killing not you're you're thinking I've been I've been noon screenplay is a lot while trying to finish this next novel and sometimes I get into screenplay mode and it's like Oh that's that'll be my next book and it's like. The you're thinking does a movie You know you're you're you're thinking visually you're thinking. I can kind of now least start figuring out what the difference is but the next project is to finish this novel I've been working on for ever kind of part in part out as I've been doing other things. But it's That's my baby and I'm really I've left all these characters in the middle of. Very dangerous in horrific situations that I'd like to. Keep them give them out of that limbo finish the book we'll know you've had the experience of adapting some of your own books, but you've also seen some one of your books at least be adapted by a different writer when you're approaching somebody else's work like the British series Utopia, how do those experiences inform how you work as an adapter rather than a generator of original story? Yeah I mean. I'll say, first of all, the first thing is coming the idea that you're playing with someone else's. World, and so I was you know when I signed on originally to do it. I've never been someone who is like the original was great. We should do it again. That's not a good reason to do to do an adaptation like we'll do it again we'll just put it in America and that'll be the difference. You will change the time and that'll be the difference you know. So to me when I originally signed on, it was like is there is there something to do here that can fill different enough Are there that I'm more interested than others. How? Did you know can I create new characters? I. Wanted To make sure that I had that room and I was incredibly lucky because Dennis Kelly who did the original is the ultimate gent and was just Consistently you know I. would send him a new scripts and Then scrunched myself in a little ball to see if he was going to be like, wow have you done to my beautiful world? And he was always comes just saying like you know, why do a remake unless you're going to remake? You know he was consistently. Incredibly cool about it and the way that I would. It would be impossible for me if someone else were adapting my stuff i. Would have truly be real bitch about it probably. So. I. Mean. That was that was lovely. How how that freedom and I don't think I would have felt freedom if I had felt like I was. Really upsetting the Creator because having been on the other side of a lot of you know certainly I understand that and have respect for that. So that was a big difference, and then what I always do without opticians is you know whether it's my own or else I also did widows which was a UK. Series originally from the Brilliant Linda Plant I. Read or watch it. One time with making notes, of scenes that I really love and and plotlines and certain things, and then I don't let myself go back again ever because when one of sort of feels like cheating almost and to you know you just have to have. Your you have to have it become its own thing you have to how you have. It becomes something new you know if there's a book. I never loved. Just. Direct adaptations from book to movie where you know I just don't think those usually work. And I understand there's also. Certainly. Understanding that their original. Utopia. Was Such a beloved. Colts show and the idea that the fan folk were. Going to be not happy with anything that it was was different and I understand that because I am a fan folk myself I'm. I do the same thing where I crossed my arms and like her own. Is. This isn't let exactly like the book she had blond hair and the bug or you know you get on these a things but. Also in mind you know unless it's different why? Why do we need? To follow up on that, we'd be remiss to not mentioned that you had before all of this a full career as a journalist. Are there instances where journalist Gillian or even TV critic Gillian come out of you were they were they sort of pop up as you're watching a rough draft of something or where you're you know thinking of something and you go that's that's the wrong brain. Well. Yeah. That never goes away ever. But I think I kind of started that way my dad was film professor, and so that's what we did. Once a week is go on father daughter dates to the movies to like. Often incredibly inappropriate movies for children like elephant man when as eight or something and. I never still to this day of never seen the end of elephant man because once people were mean to him and took his Cologne. I. I was wailing so hard I had to be escorted out of the theater and my dad was like, okay I'll see you in the lobby. It was. Back in the days of free range kids. Back in the days when you could actually go to the movie theaters Oh. My God back in those days. Remember those. Yeah and. Seeing alien with own is like seven and all these things. But the great thing about my dad was he always wanted to get my real opinion on them and he never let me the hook it was number like. Oh was good. I liked it. Well, what did you like about it? Well I liked you know and he would make me think about it and talk about it and you know why didn't he like it? Well, this character, you know things like this character was just kind of boring I. Don't know why she was there because it was always a she was undeveloped and and really thinking about it, and so I started at a very young age kind of analyzing that and I. Still do that with my. With my stuff I know. When I look at something or read something. I can go like while killing you half ass this unlike you gotta you gotTa go back. You gotta go back and I i. think my training has journalist. For ten years. Well, while I wrote my first two books you know I it was still a working journalist and. What comes in really helpful demystify is the writing process. You're not precious about the writing process you gotta you gotTa keep going and I love rewriting I mean that's my favorite thing in the world when I when I get a novel Don like by the time has published there I'm still like they're pulling it out of my hands like it's going to. Know, there's a word Rep. No. Well, we always liked to end these interviews with the same question what have you been watching and enjoying lately. So what I I've gone to bed. I'm an INSOMNIAC and so last night I watched a wilderness of error because I'm a absolute true crime. and. I'm by most to crime. Obsession is fatal vision which I read like eight billion times and I'm an earl. Morris Fan so. I I watched that. Highly recommend. It gets very very into these sort of Meta aspects of the true crime stuff in this in the episodes that are this week so. Well because, yeah I wrote girl. So I like the Meta aspects of anything so. Good. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast killing. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Utopia is now streaming on Amazon. Number five. As usual, we wrap things up with the critics corner among this week's major new launches are who's Monster Land Emily in Paris on Netflix Warrior on Cinemax, the good Lord Bird, and the comedy store on showtime the second walking dead spinoff world beyond next on Fox and connecting on NBC. Dan. When she got a lot of options let's see. Okay. Haven't watched any of connecting on NBC. So let's not worry about that. I've watched one episode of next on Fox and I will watch more this weekend but let's say I'm not anticipating that's going to be necessary Emily in Paris from Darren, star is going to be some people's Cup of tea. It is very much Parisian travel porn and it is. Beautifully shots and Lily Collins is doing her darndest Audrey Hepburn impression and. I guess there's amusement to that. It is so much an assemblage of kind of retro cliches about the French and ugly Americans and it feels. So dated and it also feels as if it's dealing with a version of Paris that hasn't existed in years and has no connection to the actual modern. Paris. And I don't think it cares what current Peres's like it's A. It's a cliche ridden fairy tale. On the other hand it is definitely escapist because you're not going to confuse this with the real world and the know chances are good that nothing in your world is pretty as the Parisian backdrops in this show which did delman Peres. So And this is it's an I should know net flicks is its third home really developed for TV land. Darren. Star has younger and then it moved over to paramount network and then they drop that and sold it to Netflix's instead. Yeah. It's. It's a thing that exists You've got hulas Monster Land, which is an adaptation of an acclaimed anthology of short stories, kind of regional horror things and it's got A. Very strong cast across its eight episodes of the first episode features, Caitlyn Deavere, and Jonathan Tucker if you keep watching you get. Folks like Culinary Tran you get. Bill camp. It's really Mike Colter. and. Anthologies are always uneven but in a perfect world, you can look to an anthology series and you can go You know here's here's the one that works and this is the one that you want check out and the other ones are varying degrees of good and bad I would say of the eight episodes none of them is a complete success but some of them have interesting things it's sort of one of those. Every horror trope is tied to the subtext. So the true monsters are inside all of us the true monsters are addiction. The true monsters are grief the to monster true monster is the American dream and corporate malfeasance and whatever. None of them really come together and my review I described it as a series of monster of the week x files episode two in which scully mulder never show up to actually make things better and so sometimes, they just kind of end. And Yeah it's. Some of the interesting and there are a lot of good actors. I didn't mention Nicole Bahari who's in an episode with Hamish Linklater you know. So that's reasonably interesting There's an episode with a with a Mermaid who knows. There's an okay episode with Taylor Schilling and vertical undress who I think is really really extremely talented and I think that's maybe the best of them but it's but none of them are scary. So there's that so Speaking of things that aren't especially scary. There's the latest walking dead spinoff world beyond which takes place ten years after the whatever. Is Ali's Who knows and it's a a somewhat different perspective that's just what it is. It's it's like walking dead Waie, right? Yes. It is basically the CW walking dead. That is that is what it is. It is a cast of. A varying cast because you you have people like Julia Ormond who is established and whatnot net Mahindroo from the Americans et Cetera et Cetera. But it's a lot of. Kind of uninteresting Callo, kids who decided to do stupid things so that audiences can see a different corner of the world covered by zombies. I will say that in the second episode, there was one. Absolutely fantastic bananas variation on Zombie Gross out that I I truly loved and it took roughly five seconds of screen time but for five seconds. That's cool. That's great. Okay and then it's gone. So edgy look. This is one of those things where if you're still walking dead devotee and you WanNa see more corners of the world. This is at. But God Should have been like five years ago that we were getting a show like this when when the brand had sufficient. To get people to Care I. Don't think people do anymore and probably the things that people should be more likely to watch the two shows that are premiering on showtime. The comedy store is a five part documentary about the famous comedy store in Los Angeles and you might remember the comedy store ended backdrop being the setting for I'm dying up here a showtime show that lasted two seasons and then died up there. So what this ultimately ends up being is a companion piece to a show that doesn't exist. Well, that's a little odd on the other hand. It's got a an amazing cast of of current and past stand up comics. People as big as David, Letterman Jay Leno and Chris Rock and Jim Carey Jim Carey presumably at some point viewed this as a potential companion piece to showtimes kidding which also no longer is with us. So you know it dodges some of the problems with contemporary stand up comedy in it's toxic environment. I mean for Heaven's Sakes Louis C.. K.. Is Talking Head in this documentary and all I could do every time he came onscreen was go. Oh okay. I guess we think that's okay. Now for him just to go ha ha ha funny memories the comedy store ha ha ha Okay but a lot of the stories are really fantastic and a lot of the material from those curly comedy store performances. Are just remarkable and and it's good to get these reminders of I don't know a lot of the brilliant figures who we've lost. So someone like Freddie print senior gets a lot of time in the first episode and it's it's nice to be reminded that Sam Kinnison is central to one episode. And it's interesting to be reminded of what of nature he was. So there's a lot of interesting stuff there, and then good Lord bird is adapted from the novel by James McBride and. Ethan Hawke's Co Stars and is one of the CO creators Eastern Hawk plays John Brown and It is a a crazy big. Lively Great Performance from Ethan Hawke and it is worth watching for that simple and straight up and. If you watch this and think do do they know how big he is? Do they know? I'm laughing at this yes they do the the the James McBride novel is is largely comedic and the series is Largely, comedic. Even though John Brown's raid at harpers ferry that helped contribute to the beginning of the civil war not so much a comedic thing. So it's it's an interesting blend of of tones. Totally worth watching for Ethan Hawke totally worth watching for divide digs as Frederick Douglass. Joshua Caleb Johnson is actually the star as a young actor who plays onion a slave who John Brown liberates and but John Brown also thinks that. The kid whose name is Henry is actually a girl named Henrietta and so he makes Henrietta addressing address in play a girl for the better part of the series and it's bigly amusing and it's it's a really really good performance because it's a subtle performance and Ethan Hawke and divvied digs are going so big. And it's fairly entertaining and there are times when it lags. Ethan Hawke chose up. It's like okay time just happy to watch this and yet you also constantly aware we'll. If I was seeing more of him, I might get a little exhausted. So it's a it's a real high wire act and I I liked it a lot I think that. That of the shows premiering. In the next few days good Lord Bird, and then the comedy store are probably the things you want to check out, and that's a lot of TV who was it who was worried about US running out of TV come Oh, well for more of Dan's weekly recommendations be sure to subscribe to. Doussi this newsletter and that feels like a good place to wrap things up as always. Thank you for listening to TV's top five, the Hollywood reporter TV podcast and a reminder. If you like us, please continue to spread the word and let t h are know as we've discussed on the show the industry's changing every day and we are not immune from those changes and thank you again to all the people who continue to. Leave reviews over on Apple. We do read those and thank you for your continued support on twitter as well into subscribe on all of your various podcasting platforms. Say on the twitter we like to hear from you, and if we haven't already mentioned it like seven times on this podcast, you can ask any questions at TV's top five at T. H. dot com that's top five, the number five at T. H. R. Dot Com. Until next week, Lesley until next week Dan go dodgers.

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Dr. Michael Shermer  What is Truth?

Science Salon

1:08:32 hr | 2 years ago

Dr. Michael Shermer What is Truth?

"This is your host, Michael Shurmur. And you're listening to science along a series of conversations with leading scientists scholars and thinkers about the most important issues of our time. L O, everybody doing nice to see all thank you so much for coming out, just by way of background a little bit, by the way, I have a cold so later, we'll just do this bumps instead of Jake's. If you don't mind, my neck has been bothering me. It's just one of those days where you get up and you go to adjust your neck like like that. It's terrible terrible. All right. That's open with classic Cup here. Don't try that comb anyway. That's one we're doing is I started the skeptics in nineteen Ninety-two with a science lecture series at Caltech. So we did that for twenty five years, and then my wife Jennifer, and I'm moved here, two and a half years ago. And I've been doing in-person salons in other locations. I thought we might as well do here, Santa Barbara. So I don't have to drive down to LA, which is, as you know, and unpleasant experience. My wife's first rule is never lied, Santa Barbara. And I met Whitney at the galena library. When our kids were they're playing, and so we put this together. So thank you for doing that windy, and it's a great deal. You get for ten bucks. You gotta talk and a free magazine and most importantly, adult beverages, which is really the only way to, to settle the big issues of God free will and all that kind of stuff. I did bring enough copies of skeptic. It is the quarterly publication of the skeptic society. You can subscribe online skeptic dot com or you can fill up the form in their comes out every four weeks, every, every three months, every issue has a particular theme. Here was wiser something rather than nothing kind of disappears there. So we do like to tackle the big questions, as well as a very specific things. So we're filming this. This will be part of the podcast. I have a podcast that we release every week. That gets about fifty to one hundred thousand us downloads each episode, so you are coming up in a few weeks. And that's why Bryan Daulton, our videographer. You may know Brian is Mr. deity the famous fister. Deity. So I hope to do more of these on June twenty third, we're going to do a second one here. But instead of talk, it's an in conversation. I'm going to have with Michael xanada. Michael is one of the world renowned neuroscientist. He's one of the pioneers of cognitive neuroscience. And we're just going to sit up on stage and talk for when over long it takes us to solve the problem of consciousness, like we have the solution and then talk to you guys and the idea with today and next time is, it's a conversation with you. Please feel free to you don't have to give a half hour speech, but you have to just ask to second question either, and that it's kind of a conversation. And so that's kind of what I'm thinking. And so I thought for today. I would just sort of do my greatest hits of what is science skepticism followed, and a little bit on white people believe where things which is kind of what I do. And then, and followed by you can just ask me anything or just a Q and A, our conversation, and we're gonna take all that. That'll be posted online. Both video and audio only. So the course I teach I teach a course at Chapman university down in orange just one day a week. So I have to suffer one day driving through LA called skepticism one, a one how to think like a scientist, so right there. I mean, what does it mean to be a skeptic? It's nothing special. It's just a scientific way of thinking. Really? We just want to know what's true. And. So we often defined science by what it isn't. So we think of science and pseudoscience or science and voodoo science, pathological science or bad science, or non science or nonsense. There's a lot of that out there. And so in plus v of scientists called the problem of demarcation, where do you draw the line between science and pseudoscience? This problem was first identified by Karl Popper when he was dealing with things like a strategy and psychoanalysis in the fifties. And it became clear that it's not a great place to draw the line. And because it depends very much on what the claim is that's being made, and who's making it and the other problem is that no one in the history of the world has ever identified as pseudo scientist. I mean, no one gets up and goes, I'm going down to my pseudo lamb, and I'm collecting pseudo. Facs detest, my pseudo theory to support my pseudo idea. Nobody thinks that they all think they're doing some grand. Thing and I get letters from them all the time they usually have to do with physics and cosmology Einstein was wrong. And Newton was wrong and hawking was wrong. And firemen was wrong. These speller names. Much of the time. But I've worked out the explanation of gravity or universe or whatever, and I'll share the Nobel prize with you. Help me get it published. Probably not the person to do you might go to the local high school physics teacher to run by your ideas case somebody's already thought of this. So in my book. So why people believe were things was my first book that was in two thousand seven so defined science has a set of methods designed to describe and interpret observed or inferred phenomenon. Pastor present aimed building a testable body of knowledge open to rejection or confirmation, okay? It's a big mouthful and these deconstruct that, so it's a set of methods, not just one thing. It's a bunch of different things we do to describe and interpret, so we're describing nature. But we're also interpreting it because the facts never speak for themselves. They have to be interpreted through some model paradigm idea you have in your head. And, you know, I always observe them they're often in furred. We don't see black holes. Well, I guess, now we do see black holes. But before that picture a couple of weeks ago, these weren't furred. You know, you don't see quirks or whatever their inferred from the experiments pastor present because I do think archeology paleontology history geology astronomy, because Malla g these are historical sciences sciences. You can test hypotheses, and that's all we wanna know we wanna know can you somehow test it. So the short version is science is a method to explain the world. That is testable and open to change. So that'd be some observations. You can make some way to get at it to see if it's true or not as Feinman said, if it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong in that simple exp- that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn't make any difference. How beautiful your guesses how smart you are who made the guess or what his name is. If it disagrees with experiment is. Wrong. That's all there is to it. And I think that's right. I mean it does help if your famous to get a hearing at least for the first few weeks of your idea, here, I'm thinking of the famous Cornell scientists Thomas gold, who was correct about so many things, including the thickness of the dust on the moon and saw anyway, super famous guy. And in the nineties, he came out with a book. That oil is not a fossil fuel. It's not at all. What geologist thought it was. And it's just incredible idea. And a book was widely published WWW trade publisher. And of course, we got copies and you want to promote this, and so on. It's like talked by geology friends like this guy is he's out of his mind, but he's Tom gold. He's famous, so he got a couple of weeks. And then okay, but this is why it's wrong. So at some point there has to be some way to get at okay. So as an example of that, I'm going to tell you about a little device if you've already seen this on my Ted talk bear with me with the repetition. But this was brought to my. Office in the nineties. It's a golf ball finder, and it's basically it's a it's a plastic handle with a little ten that kind of rotates, if you set it, right. It's fairly delicately balanced here, and you'll see on the side as a picture of golf ball, just in case you forget, what you're looking for anyway, when you do this, and you test, it, the students are surprised at how many they get right half. Okay. We need to have a little talk about basic statistics, and probabilities. You would expect to get half, but, but how many more than half like if we did this one hundred times how many more, would you have to get right? Anyway. The number comes out to something like thirty nine above the fifty fifty rate to be statistically significant at the point. Oh, one level and so forth, so we could reject chances, the probable explanation and say something going on with this, this thing was like fifty bucks or ninety bucks or something like that. Marijuana finder with nine hundred dollars and then and then the company went out of business after the dateline show we did on it. And the Ghanem I think it was mail fraud or something like that is what the Ghanem for. But then it was picked up by British fellow who then started selling it as a bomb detector, this is after nine eleven to security forces and police departments and military around the world, and it was selling for like fifty thousand dollars a union. It's the same piece just a piece of plastic with a radio shack ten kind of things, and he's now in jail for many decades, he made something like forty million dollars selling this thing, and there's a great clip online that showed students went did not do it here. But where they talk about experts called in to determine if the mumbo jumbo he said about the, you know, the, the Quadra chur, and the, and the claim the quantum effects, and you need to string together all these physics sounding words, if but you don't need any of that. You could do it with, like something like this just pick cups can do better than fifty fifty. That's all you need. It's a simple. Statistical tesla. So that's, that's what I mean. When I say there has to be some way to get at it. Is it true or not? And, and that's what experiment is for now. Not everything is super simple test, but in general had science we're looking for objective knowledge. That is the basing of conclusions on external validation, as opposed to mysticism, or the basing of conclusions on personal insights that lack external validation that is it has to be some way. That's not just my opinion. It's not just something I experienced therefore, I know it's crew. As an example of this, when I was on Joe Rogan's podcast. And he's really into magic mushrooms and all this stuff. And, and he had me and Graham Hancock on the Graham Hancock is one of these alternative archaeologists. He's a super interesting guy doesn't think aliens built the pyramids or whatever but he thinks it was lost ancient civilization from like twenty thirty forty thousand years ago long before the pyramids. And so, I don't care. So he has this alternative theories been pedaling for a long time, anyway, turns out he's also really into altering his consciousness through Losco, which is apparently, I think, where he gets a lot of his ideas about, because he has this whole thing about who were these people, the Atlantic that built the pyramids. It's well, they were super advanced well, but Graham, there's no tools that know there's no technology. There's no there's nothing like anything. We would consider to be advanced civilization. No writing nothing from twenty thousand thirty thousand years ago. What do you mean by advance? I, I mean, spiritually advanced like like like going into this other plane, okay? So he arranged for me to be invited very likely to not do this to go this place in Costa Rica called rhythm Lia where you spend a whole week doing Iowa. And going to this other place. What other place? Well, it's this other dimension that you go to do yoga. You get great food and working out. All that sounds great. But you gotta do the Wasco, which is the whole point of going to there. Now almost everybody that's ever done. This is absolutely convinced. There is another world, this spiritual plane, this multidimensional this place that you go to. Okay. How do we know? That's true. The answer is take the hiawatha, and you'll see it's true. It's like. Yeah. But that's still in my head now. So I haven't actually gotten inside your head now. I'm just altering my consciousness. So it's still internal, and I don't know how you would externally validate a claim like that and short of not being able to test it. We can say as well. It's probably just an internal state because we know how neurons work and we know what loosener Jin's do it's a little bit like the problem of, of other minds, like, how do I know your santee and beans that you're conscious you could all be philosophical zombies is it's called urologists Dombi, and you act like you're conscious, but I'm actually the only one who's really conscious and the rest of your zombies. Okay. And these philosophical head scratchers are one reason I didn't go into philosophy. And I stayed in sciences, because ends up depending on what you mean by the concepts like, is my read the same as your read, as if the little mini me in my head can leap out into your skull to look on. The screen to see what your red looks like and go yet, looks like my red or no it's green in his head or whatever these, we can't solve those, those problems. So let's say I went and I did. I lost gonna came back next month or next year and said and set up a talk like this and said, you're not gonna believe it. I went there, and it is real. You gotta believe me. You'd have no reason to believe me. I mean, there's nothing like this experiment. I can show you short of we just all do. I watch right here in the room, but isn't church. So I said something like a spiritual experience, something like that. So this is what I mean. I mean, if we can't get at it, somehow if it's just my opinion my internal state up here. We get the question of what is truth? How do we know? It's true. And we can make a distinction between subject of inner inner internal truths. Like what I've been talking about. Versus these kind of objective external truth. So here's a couple of examples of subjective internal truths. Statements dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate. When that. A lot of people are pretty convinced that was real. Or. Or my other favorite stairway to heaven is the greatest rock song of all time. I know what you're thinking, free bird, free bird is great, but it's not stairway anyways, obviously, these are just internal states or, or nonsensical Trues, like meaning of life is to love this audience. Then there are subjective Trues that could become objective truth. Like, if I say, we'll meditation makes me feel better that's still in that kind of realm of Iowa. It's like well, this is just in my head. But what we wanna know, scientifically objectively, is it really better. Does it really make you feel better you and me and all of us, or we do do meditation for thirty minutes, a day under these conditions listening to this particular, whatever it is fifty percent of your pain by grain? We'll go away or whatever's, there's some kind of objective measure, we can make like that. So my friend. Deepak chopra. Is trying to do this. He's, he's running these clinical studies at his center in Carlsbad where he has the jumper center. Now he invited my wife and I had to go there. So we went there, and I have to say when you stay at a five star resort at the beach, and you get massages, and you yoga, and you work out and unique, great food, and you meditate you feel better. In fact, if you're not feeling better doing that. There's something wrong with you. Okay. So it works in that sense. But of course what, what Deepak wants to know is does it really work like all right? So he's run these experiments, where he has like professional meditators come in versus amateur meditators than people like me that don't do it at all. And to see if there's kind of measurable differences in blood pressure cardiovascular. Whatever various genetic things he takes blood tests, and all these like hundred different measures and he's published. Articles say, yeah, it really works in some kind of measurable way we don't need to get into that here now but the idea is that it's making that transition from it works for me versus it actually works some something, we can get of course. That's what all of modern scientific medicine is all about is testing, it, somehow, there's no such thing as alternative medicine. You know what you call turn it of medicine with evidence medicine, right? That's right. So. Or other objective. External choose. There are one hundred and two people here today. Let's say, well, this is true or false by verification. You just have to count. And see how many people are there or the dinosaurs went extinct, sixty five million years ago. Well, this is true by verification and replication of radiometric dating techniques, so you have lava flow and the radiocarbon clock starts ticking as the atoms decay, the dinosaurs run around on top of the lava flow and then you have another lava flow above that. So, you know that how ever old the dinosaurs are there, some between this age of the love of low in this age of the love of flown. We had that down pretty well. And at some point at sixty five million years ago, those layers, they stopped there's no more above that. So okay that's it. So that's kind of an example of a historical science, that's testable, and we can say something objective about it. And of course, there bars one scientists fines at sixty five point one, sixty four point nine, you know, the little variation there does not mean creationist think it does that these scientists can't get their stories straight there for the whole thing is bullshit. No, no, no. It's just that there's natural variations and how the studies are conducted, if they were all exactly the same, then you would expect collusion right down to the six decimal point. It's something like that. But the universe began with the big bang. Well, this is true by convergence of evidence from a wide range of phenomenon such as the cosmic microwave background the abundance of light elements like hydrogen and helium the distribution of galaxies and large scale structure of the cosmos, the Redshift of most galaxies. It looks like an explosion. So there are big Bank, skeptics, that say they don't believe it. And but the evidence is kind of converge. So with this idea of the convergence of evidence is really important in science, skepticism at some point, you don't have to be a skeptic anymore, which is what does that even mean like are you a global warming skeptic, or you skeptical of the global warming skeptics, which would make you a believer. At even that's kind of a problematic statement because I don't believe in climate change. It just is regardless of my beliefs, which would be a little different than saying. I believe in a progressive tax and you believe in a regressive tax and you believe in a flat tax, I would put that in a different category of truce, like, well, what's the right one? There isn't a right one in the same category. As a convergence of evidence toward the earth is getting warmer. It's human cause something like that. So these propositions are true in the sense that it would be reasonable for us to offer our provisional sent and see how it goes. It's possible. Evolution is wrong and the climate theory is wrong and the big bang is wrong. It's possible but thought very likely at this point, so we gain confidence that way, when we think about how science works, then there's negative truth, such as the no hypothesis in science that the non existence of something is true. All right. So you claim big Foot's real I say, well, that's nice show me the body. Well, I got this video clip. And if you squint and magin looking at this Bush in the middle of the night, you can kinda see a humanoid fig. No, no, no. I mean, an actual buddy. Because in biology to name a new specimen, new species, you have to have a type specimen here it is. You can see it. You could see it. You can photograph it. You can check that you put in your museum, something like that. Otherwise. The default position is the knoll hypothesis is not true until you prove otherwise. So the burden of proof argument is super important for skeptics. And scientists that the burden of proof is not a made approve. There is no big foot or no aliens, or whatever it's on you the climate. So when somebody says, well, I have a cure for aids. I could eliminate it one hundred percent out of the bloodstream this hasn't been done, yet two hundred percent but, but somebody who claims it does, we don't have an obligation to just believe them. They have to provide the clinical data and the lab tests and so forth. So, and then Finally, I think it's telling that among the tens of thousands of government emails, documents and files leaked through Wiki leaks. Not one showed anything about nine eleven is an inside job the aliens or at Roswell, or any of the other conspiracy theories in wacky ideas that people have had that claim, well, if we really saw the inside workings of what's going on? We would. Find out that they're true. Therefore, it's true. No, we just withhold judgment, and to say the null hypothesis. It's not true until proven otherwise. But when you get a trove of millions of documents from the NSA and other government agencies leaked, that's a sign of the lack of evidence is evidence of lack. It's a evidence of absence. It doesn't exist. Very likely would not exist. I mean nine eleven was an inside job to be hundreds of people thousands of people involve somebody would had a memo or a letter or something in the trove and there's nothing like that. So that can kind of increase our confidence that this is true, or this is not true. Something like that. Okay. So this brings me to Sagan's drag is I call it. You probably read Karl's nineteen ninety six book, the demon haunted world. So Carl got this idea from somebody else he credits in there. But he but here's the here's the thought experiment. So. I have a dragon in my garage pretend this is my garage behind me and would you like to see it super cool. So I, I lift up the garage door and, and you look in there, and it's just an empty floor and paint cans ladder of icicle. Where's the dragon? Well, see this is an invisible dragon. Oh, an invisible dragon. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we can sprinkle some powder on the floor. And then when he walks around, we'll pick up his foot prints. See this dragon hovers above the ground by about six inches. He's a floating of Arene invisible dragon well in my best ghost busting mode. I have my infrared cameras. We can, we can measure the heat signature of the dragon in the garage. Well, see this is a cold blooded drag and it gives off. No heat at all. But wait. What about the fire coal fire, especial cold fire that the cold-blooded dragon that hovers above the ground that's invisible? And so on another words at some point, what's the difference between invisible floating heatless dragon and no dragon at all? Okay. Okay. So I think this has implications for many claims including and especially religious and miracle claim. So the null hypothesis is that the claim of America is not true until proven otherwise. And if your argument simply well, but how do you explain this amazing thing that happened? Well, there's lots of ways to explain amazing things. What do you mean by amazing? And so, so anyway, one of my columns scientific American that got a lot of male about was because they put it out on Easter week. The biggest miracle of all, so, so the. So the, the resurrection is an interesting case study because we can, we can contrast it with say did Jesus exist. Now there are these missus Jesus myth assist. The thing he didn't exist. And I've read arguments, okay they're reasonable. But I think probably they're not good. I think somebody named eases probably exist. It was not that unusual name. So I mean it's not like he's Zeus here in southern California. But, but, but it was a. And that he was crucified is also not unreasonable because the Romans crucified everybody this is like one of their favorite things to do, and it was a big big fun for the family to go out and watch the hangings and early twentieth century America big fund, and then something like the proposition that Jesus died for our sins. That is in that category. More like either the meaning of life. It's forty two or dark chocolate versus milk. Chocolate. How would you test that? I mean, that's just an article of faith, is just I just believe that. Yeah, where's your control group may what do you mean? I mean this, there's nothing like that. They're now in between that I think is the resurrection. Okay. So it's not impossible that somebody really dead can come back from light. But diddy. Okay. So here we bring in the famous David Hume. So I have to read just one little passage because this is the, you know, the patron Saint of skepticism, this book and inquiring concerning human understanding. So he defined a miracle as violating the law of nature, a transgression of a law nature by a particular volition of the deity or some invisible agent. So can't just be some like super unusual events like went to the phone to call my friend, Bob and the phone rang and it was pop. I couldn't believe it. It was like the universe wanted us to you know, you hear you hear these stories all the time. But of course, the law of large numbers, you know, how many times did you go the phone to call your friend, Bob? He didn't call many times Bob call. And you weren't thinking about him. So and you had all get certain. Okay. So million to one odds happen hundreds of times a day in America. There's three hundred million adult Americans running around doing stuff, just highly unusual things are going to happen, and they'll be on the evening news because that's what they look for never gonna see on next on Oprah. We have this woman that's been having these death dreams and so far not one is come true, but stay tuned because the next one might be real. They're only gonna pluck out the ones that stand out like the person that wins the lottery. Can't believe he won. But somebody had to win so miracle can't just be that. And what most believers mean is something that the deity intervened reached into the world stirred the particles in some way to cure the cancer divert, the football through the goalposts, whatever the deity is supposed to do. So in his section on miracles. Hume gives us it sort of went all else fails argument. That goes like this in weird things I elevated to Hume's maxim. The plane consequences, and it is a general maximum worthy of our attention. And then he quotes himself, which is. That. No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle. Unless the testimony of such a kind that it's full to would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish when anyone tells me that he saw a dead man restored to life. I immediately consider myself, whether it be more probable that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates should really have happened. I way the one miracle against the other, and according to the superiority, which I discover I pronounce my decision and always reject the greater miracle, if the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculously than the event, which he relates then. Not until then. Can you pretend to command my belief or opinion, let's kind of a long mouthful, basically, he's arguing that we should portion our competence in our beliefs to the evidence of able for it or as Sagan famously said he didn't say he made famous, there's, there's a effecting, quote mining. I don't know if you follow quotes the more quotes to. To rise up to most famous person who ever set him as Yogi Berra said, I didn't say half the things I said, okay, it's something like that guy named Marcello choosy, who was one of the co founders of skeptical inquirer magazine proceeded, my magazine he had said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. He'd said prove actually in Carl changes to evidence. But the idea is that the more extraordinary claim, the more extraordinary, the evidence has to be for it for us to accept it. So, so fun example, I've used before. So my wife I live live over off of the Las Posadas. So to get here today. I came downpour to swell right on mode. Doc, left on mission went up mission and right? When I cross Michigan state this bright, light hovered above my car, and I was -ducted out of my car into the mothership up in space and they. Took me to the please where I met the pa- deans, and they told me the whole meaning of everything, and why we're here and so on. They brought me back to the Iroquois of time travel, and I didn't lose it. I didn't lose any missing time and I got here in time and saw. And then I turned right on the Santa Barbara. Now most of that story, you don't eat any evidence because, you know, the roads is like, well, that's pretty normal. That's an ordinary claim. But there's one part wait, wait, what happened mission and state because that's an extraordinary claim is do I have extraordinary evidence while I promise? I did. I swear I did it was unbelievable. None of that counts. It's irrelevant. And so I didn't next time I should grab onto the widgets on the dashboard, and bring it back and one of those probes. Us something that matches that so there's about seven and a half billion people today. How many people have lived before us lived in died? Anybody know the answer because they're actually, here's an answer. Somebody came up with. Hundred billion hundred billion. I mean, it depends on how you crunch the numbers the back of the kind of calculation back about fifty thousand years and. And you just take the kind of typical population growth averages about one hundred billion people have lived and died and not one of them has come back. Except maybe one, one of the that's about as extraordinary acclaim as you can get now in heaven's on earth ideal with near death experiences and reincarnation and all that show. Why those are not extraordinary evidence at all. So therefore, it's reasonable for us to be skeptical of the resurrection, even if we don't have to be skeptical of Jesus existence or the crucifixion, something like that, to mention why died and the electrical meetings of that. Okay. What if somebody has no evidence at all? Okay, here's a cool trick. I learned from Christopher Hitchens, which I then wrote a column I called it Hitchens dictum. What can be asserted without evidence could be dismissed without evidence, yet don't have to answer. You can just say, thanks, get back to me or by. You know, if somebody has crazy claim you don't have to have an explanation for everything. They might some of my other favorite quotes from fellow skeptics, Isaac Asimov, the relativity of wrong. Beautiful a laissez hero. When people talk the earth was flat. They were wrong when people thought the earth was Feerick. They were wrong here. He's talking about the earth is an OBE, late spheroid slightly fatter on the equator than the polls, bulging a little bit more on the south end and so forth. But if you think that thinking near is spiritual is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat than your view is wrong than both of them put together. And so this is the other thing about sign we make progress our models. Approximating reality. Get better or they don't but there's something that we can push pull with it are models. With evidence is Richard Dawkins said when two points of view are expressed with equal intensity. The truth does not necessarily lie xactly halfway between them it's possible for one side to be simply wrong. So if you have a younger gracious says your was great ten thousand years ago, and you have a geologist says is four point six billion years ago. Oh, the truth is not halfway between there. You don't Adam divide by two. It's possible. Some people are just wrong and finally. The older. I get the more lean on this one. Sometimes people just make shit up. It's just unbelievable. This stuff people make up. They just why. Now I have to give credit to my friend Joe Rogan. I don't know if you listen to his podcast, but, you know, in the early days, he was pretty to open minded to some of the crazier ideas that people had, you know. And, and I, I like to thank though he's never told me this that I've been on the show, five times, maybe I've kind of given them a few tips along these lines. I now find very skeptical of a lot of these crazy stories, people tell, including this, Bob Lazar character who said I worked at area, fifty one saw the aliens myself. And so here's an interesting observation about the I mentioned, the line of demarcation at the start within fringe groups, they have their own line of demarcation. This is really kind of amusing the nine eleven troopers. They think the no players are crazy now than I ever truth. I thing the World Trade Center buildings were brought down by explosive devices and the planes, hit the no plainer say there were no planes. Those were holograms designed by CNN. And so on the whole thing was fake. And so the truth is like those guys are crazy. Of course, I'm saying you're crazy. Surmise me of that book, the three Christ's Solanki, Dino this book. Yep. Salon t Michigan is a mental hospital there in the fifties. Psychiatrists got this. He had three. He had three patients each who thought he was Christ. So I got a great idea. I'm going to get them all in the same room together and they'll see that they're all delusional. What happened is, of course. Two of each of them. The other two were totally delusional, and they were the true teases anyway. This gets us to the, you know, the kind of the psychology believe, do people really believe these things, I do think that people like this Baba's. Are they some people? They just make stuff up. I don't find particularly interesting. They're just liars. They're just lying. He said he he worked at. Area, fifty one well, since the freedom of information act is kind of open up the doors of the place. We know that he didn't. He never worked. He worked as a contractor. I don't know what he was doing adjusting nuts or something knows at some not on base. And then he said he went to MIT and Caltech never went to either of you could just look those things up, but it wasn't me or skeptics that did that. It was the skycam. Stand Friedman who was a big ufologist now at least Dan just died last week at age eighty four. And I've collided with him on CNN a bunch of times. Larry King on UFO's, and I completely disagree with him, but he doesn't like the crazies in the UFO community, because it make him look bad. Because he's trying to have a good story. Okay. So I find that rather amusing that somebody else's doing some of that work for me. But then do so rep things up. But most people, I think, do come to believe these things for whatever reason I mean, I mentioned, no one in the history of the universe world, ever identifies pseudoscience, no one in the history of the world ever joined a Colt joins a cult. They join a group, they think is going to do something good and productive, or make them wealthier help humanity or whatever I'm Jim Jones was a real liberal pioneering civil rights activists in this Hafer, Cisco area before he lost his mind and got into drugs and sexual abuse and all this crazy stuff and moved to South America. But before that you can see pictures online of Jerry Brown when Jerry Brown was originally governor of California doing all these great things soup kitchens and the poor and San Francisco. And so, so people join that group like this is a good thing to help the poor and the needy. Okay. So and that's true for pretty much every group. That that's out there. And most of the claims, I encounter people pretty much believe it now why. So that's a whole nother lecture. But in terms of the psychology belief in essence. So the hard problem is I call it is why do smart, people believe where things because I give the research and white people believe are things that, that intelligence, and, and beliefs are on. That is they're not related. So you would think intelligent educated. People are less likely to, to believe these sorts of things not true. I mean most of the nine eleven truth is I made or the follow or the various conspiracy, theorists really smart educated people. It's not that's not the problem if anything, it's a bigger problem, because they're really good at rationalizing beliefs. They arrived at for non-smart reasons, which is to say whatever, whatever drove you to that particular claim your religion, your politics, your economic ideology, whatever most people know nothing about climate science including me. People always sent me these technical papers to read, I don't really understand not my field. So I do rely on the experts in the field, the people that are professionals at this, and they compete with each other. And they check each other's data and so that's not an argument from thority, nor is it an argument from the democracy of science. They are an elite group that compete with each other. And, and they check each other much like the, you know, the truth is debunk no players, the scientists would debunk each other. If there was something there. So I can have some confidence in that even though I don't understand it now. The person who says, well, I doubt climate, I'm a climate skeptic. They don't know anything about it. They're sending a social signals signalling theory. I am such a good Republican for conservative, or pro free market capitalist that I'm going to signal publicly that I deny climate now. Now has nothing to do with the climate. It's just a political, tribal thing. And that's the case with most anti science. I think most people don't know much about it. It has secondary or tertiary links. It's a proxy for something else that they can then publicly stayed now on social media. This is what I believe, and they get cred with their group, right? They get more likes and re tweets and so forth. So that's an interesting. You know, kind of psychological effect there in other words, brains, or more, like lawyers than scientists, once we commit to a belief than we marshal all the evidence to support that particular one ignore. All just confirmed. Evidence is confirmation bias look for and find confirmed evidence what you already believe into northern just confirming everybody does, and that's fueled by your political tribes, your religious tribes or whatever your particular ideology is associated with that particular. Then I mean anti vaccine. I mean, what do they really know about backseats really next to nothing? And if they do they only Marshall the arguments, somebody like Robert Kennedy jR. It's just painful to watch and make these arguments. Yet. That's really not what it's about, you know, it's about well, I don't want actually, the anti vaccine one is interesting. It's sort of an equal opportunity, left and right. You know, liberals fear big pharma, big pharma, big medicine companies, making too much money conservatives. All this is big government. Telling me what I can do with my body or except they don't play that to women for some reason. So, so I'm just going to read the sort of the final paragraph here from weird things on this, and we can talk more about that, if you like in the conversation here. So the last section is called hope springs, eternal in which I just finished up going through all these different psychological factors linking. All these reasons together is the title of the final part of this book. Hope springs, eternal, it expresses, my conviction, that humans are by nature, a forward-looking species always seeking greater levels of happiness and satisfaction. Unfortunately, the corollary is that humans are all too often willing to grasp, but unrealistic promises of a better life or to believe that better life can only be attained by clinging to intolerance. Ignorance by lessening, the lives of others. And sometimes by focusing on a life to come. We missed what we have in this life. It is a different source of hope. But it is hope none, the less hope that human. Pellets combined with compassion can solve our myriad problems and enhance the quality of each life. Hope that historical progress continues on its March toward greater freedoms, and acceptance for all, humans, and hope that reason and science as well as love and empathy can help us understand our universe, our world and ourselves. Thank you. I didn't see. Address Brazilian diplomat issue with the yard diplomatic corps became in Cuba. Sorry, but I did read times very long. About what happened is Jerry. Six of the Cuban are Cuban medical. Do you have? Do you have an conscious about that or yet? So we have an article on that Barth, Allah, MU is my source on that he is a sociologist who studies mass hysteria, and he's absolutely convinced the end of the whole sound for what the right term is. But, you know, the sound attack a coup stick attacks on our. Embassy. There were just largely mass hysteria. Just got a little told, and then people started panicking. Not one hundred percent. Convinced he's right. But I think he has a better argument than that there is this secret attacks going on. Is. About solution. That's important. About. The website of people that are very. In bali. But there are some unclaimed daily about. Melting glaciers growing visions hotter house. There's, there's a lot of suits about. You're talking about these. External. For truth. Claim cannot prove and it's not testicle. Twenty. Do about Carl of the. To the soda all solutions, because I. What I thought. Oh, no. I thought they like trinity came from the trinity vary out of my wall into my car. Now, this is a good point. Yes. So let's deal man that instead of straw, man it. So there's kind of five questions kiddie warmer. What's the cause how much warmer is going to get what are the consequences of the warming? What should we do about it? So the first two is what I was talking about. And I will, I will admit that more and more conservatives have come around saying the last decade to say, yes, it's human caused. It's real and human. 'cause then the skepticism grows of how much warmers are gonna get well, the era barge grow the further out. You goes it's harder to predict. And of course, nobody thinks AOC's predictions of in twelve years. We're going to be doomed or something. I don't think anybody buys that then but then we shift from the scientific question to a political or economic question, which we do about it, and here I'm guess I'm sort of, on board with Lomborg. I think he's a pretty good skeptic on this. He starts every talkie gives with climate change is real and human, 'cause he's been saying that since the late nineties, and, but if you apportion how much money to allocate to solve. You have say, twenty five human problems, malaria, starvation, lack of potable, water, and on and on and on. Where does climate fall in that category? Of course, a lot of climate scientists. What should be number one? Anyway, Bjorn has this great group Copenhagen consensus group of economists and scientists climate scientists on if you had fifty billion dollars. What would you do? What's the criteria? We'll say saving human lives and increasing human flourishing. Well climate doing something about the climate is pretty low on the list. You know, mosquito nets can get you a lot of save lives in improve lives for very cheap. Anyway. That's a different another way to think about it from limited resources, economics perspective. So you're wonderful twenty fifteen seven. All my nose is. Incredible told everybody about it. So my questions you parts of the one. When we expect another wonderful day. Mason enough second since I know are Kennedy. He gets well, I if I was going to do another conference, it would be here for sure. Again, rule number one. Okay. So. Yeah. I think probably someplace like at UCSB would be the place to do that. Those events. I I've done a dozen of those since the early nineties. So it's big today, conventions where you bring people from run. They are huge time consuming expensive projects to do and exhausting. And since I started the podcasting thing, it's like this is I can reach way more people can reach fifty two hundred thousand people every week, and it's, it's so easy to read a book, I blowed out of the studio, I sit there, Dr somebody for an hour and a half. And I'm done. So I just sort of multiple approaches to what's our goal what we want to teach critical thinking science so on, and discuss great ideas. There's just lots of ways to do that. But your encouragement, I will make you director of. Okay. Well, see me afterwards. Okay. I'm like sightsee shirts over middle. And. Is a lot from students. And I'm wondering if you have the same leisure suits and stuff is is soon as safe that we're trading pains. The very strong and just their believe some of that. And so I have come to the point where I say, we'll of my teachers to teach science. Giving by about. Sure I get that. And and has changed as more of that. Now, I think the spread of Postmodernism, and this idea that there, there are no privilege Trues, or if there are there based on oppression and the patriarchy and all this stuff that, you know, that's kind of politicized science, this so called science wars in the nineties, come back recently. And, and it's it's just not true. Now, of course, it depends on what areas. Can we have to pinpoint claims? If you're talking about say, climate or Kuzma, biology, whatever it's more clearcut in the social sciences. It's a little Messier when you're talking about economic theories, you know where, of course, they're not just opinions, but it's not clear. What the answer is again. Use that example of a progressive tax regressive tax. But sure that there's a right answer to that. So there's probably not a right, answer that, although so like Sam Harris I, I think that facts and values can overlap. Lot, that most value questions can be solved. But factual data that matter of clarifying, our terms and figuring out what's the right answer for most people in most places something like that. But I but that's kind of obvious for some of the simpler, moral dilemmas, harder for some of the other ones, where there is just a lot of opinion. So. I was just reminded this just reading the review in the New York Times today of Jared Diamond's new book upheaval. It's called. So Jared wrote this book, which he takes a model of people in crises. His wife is a crisis psychotherapist. And you've lost your job. Your spouse died, whatever something traumatic and you just your, your life is unraveling. What do I do? And so she gives them this list. Here's what you're going to do, and we're gonna work through it, and in a few weeks months, they get them through the crisis. And things are back on track of Jared that applies this to nations in crisis all over the world dozen different ages, super interesting. Well, the review is to scathing, so it starts off saying, first of all, he's an old white guy, and who is he to tell, you know, third world peoples people of color and women, what they can and can't shouldn't do with their crises like whoa. And then he the reviewer attacks this Jared idea of kind of from thirty thousand feet view of history. That there's certain models you can place on history theories about history. You can test to see whether some are better than others. This is what scientists do. He's a scientist, so guns germs and steel, you know, it's an it starts off as a narrative history happened, then be happening, see having than and then Jared stops it goes Nella task why it happened in that sequence. And if we go to this other part of the world, it didn't happen in that sequence, it happened d-, I then be then see a and look what happened there. And then here's another country where they did this, this, this different outcome. That's what scientists do they test hypotheses. And this review is saying history is just from the soil up. We just want to hear the voices of the oppressed. Okay. Now, those voices have a place in history for sure. I've read the people's history, the United States, I've read lies by teacher told me, I've read bury my heart wounded knee. All those are voices that are part of history. Yes. But there's this idea that science is no different than just another store. Somebody's telling that's a problem because it's not that, that's the whole point of sites. It's not just my story. Really? Really? Titians and was forward. One. Oh, well, so one argument is that our senses are not designed by balloon. I mean to have a perfectly accurate model of reality. They're just as I get your genes to the next generation. So you got to survive long enough to do that. And then maybe a parent and grandparent's something like that. So you don't have to you don't have to have a perfect model of reality. And so that that's one answer answer is that. Accurate model reality isn't the only thing that matters where social primate species. So what other people think of me matters to me also? And so people are willing to bend their beliefs to what other people around them believe often for good reasons. I mean these social experiments, which are basically guerrilla theater in the sixties where the smoke coming into the room or everybody in the elevator. Turns out faces the back hilarity ensues is everybody kind of follow suit. It will, but that never happens in the real world when everybody is going in one direction. There's probably a pretty good reason they're doing that now. Maybe they're all deluded but, but probably not right in our ancestors environment. It made sense to pay attention to forties. Pay attention to what everybody else is doing what they believe this sort of pull the audience asking people, you're going to get fairly close to the right answer on simple questions, probably heard mentality is not completely crazy. Okay. So a lot of what appears to be rationality are not that irrational in different context. So like even the famous research by a can common on type one and type two thinking, and how, how bad we are estimating probabilities and all that, you know, like Danny's book thinking fast and slow it's a great compilation of all that research. But there's another German, cognitive psychologist. Gert king. Rens or Gingrich or critical of all this. Same actually the way you present students with these thought experiments that they have to reason their way through. And then they get the wrong answer, but in a different context, that's not completely crazy. They're getting the right answer for a different context. Right. So anyway, that's, that's a second answer. So. I would add to the just finished a big project for the teaching company. Great courses just wrote, a course on conspiracies and conspiracy theories, these are different things, conspiracies when people actually do something that theory is that about, okay, some of them are troops over. Not. But what I discovered in the research is that no one really looks at why do people believe in conspiracy theories. Well, you know, race age intelligence, all these different factors psychologists look at how about that. Some of them are real. So we should be at least constructively paranoid a little bit corporations. Really do lie to people about their products. Tobacco industry is a good place to start governments really do lie to their citizens, including ours, especially ours. So I started digging into some of the crazy stuff was doing in the fifties. I don't if you watched wormwood, the Netflix, six hour documentary on Earl Morris has documentary on C I experiments on mind control, because we were frayed of the of the psychic gap missile gap with the Russians was the Seig app. You know, the Russians are learning to control people's minds faster than we are. We gotta get in on this. Maybe that was true, right? So they did these experiments where they gave people LSD in this kind of stuff crazy. And then when Kennedy was president. His staff all the way up to McNamara. The joint chiefs presented him. This document is come to be known as the northwood document this came out in a trove of documents through a freedom of information act related to the Kennedy assassination. We're going to find out who really killed Kennedy. Okay. I have lecture on that which could all be summed up with a little joke, where guy dies goes to heaven and God, said, well, you had a great life. I will answer any question you want to know with the truth. He goes, all right? I wanna know who really kill JFK said Lee Harvey Oswald, with his Carcano rifle acting alone. And the guy goes this goes even higher than I thought. Anyway. So this, this northwards document is like all the false flag operations that we could conduct could against Cuba, and Castro including doctrine up in American jet to look like a Russian MiG and then buzzing commercial airliners over Miami. And then invading Cuba now there's like twenty different of these kind of false flag up rations and assassinations of Cuba of Castro like exploding cigar, all this crazy stuff. Now. Kennedy said, we can't do this, are you insane. But the fact that our government was even thinking about doing these things, and they did do a lot of those things in South American countries to overthrow a dictator. That was not as friendly to American interests. This other dictator a lot of this stuff went on. So when someone a nutjob, like Alex Jones says, you know, sandy hook was a false flag operation. Nine eleven is false flag up ration-. They're crazy. That's not true. But they're not completely crazy. Because sometimes. Do things like that. So it doesn't hurt to be a little bit conspiratorial that way. Retired and is it? The necessary for me to beat in science and biology aches and. And when I talk about these all. Psychologist friends. Oppose the idea of. He says why. Shoot. Exactly. I hughes. A lot. Well, I guess, I would ask you that also do you think I mean, I'm kind of conflicted about this may just be the natural barriers between fields, so I mean, they're literally in different buildings as balkanisation of so they don't talk to each other. That's a big problem or is it ideological, like we don't like the methods of those guys over there. We don't do that. But if they tried it, maybe it would work. Yeah. Yeah, we did issue in the nineties on at the policy wars. This was when that book, darkness, and Eldorado came out, accusing Polian shag of, of having basically doctored up rigged, the Yama people to be more warlike in high in conflict, so he could support his theory about mate, selection, and all this kind of stuff. Anyway, turns out he was right. And he was exonerated. But that took years. And, and after that the apology field kind of split between cultural and physical, where they were literally in different buildings. They weren't even talking to their different fields completely. That's purely ideological. And Steve pinker wrote this book, the blank slate that either commend this blank slate, ISM is more pervasive than any of us realized it's everywhere I call them I call him, cognitive creationist evolution only work from the neck down. The brain is just as blank slate that evolution had nothing to design in it. It's just not true. So I do think that's a problem. Pretty negative stereotypes. Except here. Wondering, say humanise. Well, I, I would just ask all of you that I mean, I think it's just we all just present. Our best face forward, personally, I'm just by temperament more optimistic in kind of a sour cynic it for some reason, the word skeptic and cynic are always conflicted in people's heads. So you're cynical, no skeptical. What is? And it's not a cynical view. We just wanna know what's true now in terms of, of defining ourselves. I don't think it's good to find ourselves just by what we don't believe. You know what do you believe? I don't believe in God. Yeah, I know. But do you believe okay? Well, we believe in science and reason, and logic and empiricism and, and love and rights and Justice and freedom and liberty, and, you know, you could just brattle off all kinds of positive things and human is done this, this numerous humanist statements since the thirties, manifestos that have been published, and I wrote one two years ago and. Yeah. This is sort of a positive assertion of what we do believe which I think is pretty grand, the UN declaration of human rights is pretty pretty sound. I think without any of the religious supernatural ISM in it. And, and it's it's held up pretty well for fifty years. If you just think about how mazing that is all those different countries that used to fight each other for centuries. Agreed. Okay. These are the things we think are good for humanity. Now they didn't agree on. What's the justification of rights, or whatever you have to drill down into philosophical bedrock to find some super foundation, something like cuts, quench Eliza. And utilitarianism was Wright's theory throwing in gave us a list of fifty different things that are really sound that gives us a, you know, civil good civil society, and I think there's a lot to be optimistic about that way. So my book the moral arc is about that St. pickers last two books better angels of our nature. And enlightenment. Now we're kind of carrying on the tradition that. Progress is inevitable, but that we can make it happen. In fact, it's not inevitable. We have to do it. And that there's a lot of things we've been doing right. And we should figure out what it is. We've been doing. Right. And why we did that. And then do more of that. And I think we have a pretty good handle on it. I in the moral. Arc say it's due primarily to science and reason now by science. I don't mean we go to the theologist for advice on moral issues. I mean, the body of human knowledge accumulated over centuries that involves philosophy. Humanism Pericles, the whole package without the supernatural religious dogma, and it works pretty good, not perfectly. But, but it's the best thing we've been doing so we do more of that. That's argument. You mentioned earlier Sam Harris who believes that sun. It's actually can advise us on ethical principles and how to run our society. And I was intrigued that you said that wouldn't help with tax policy, but actually be important. Could you say something more about where you read threes? Oh, yeah. Sure. So. But she's out example, tax policy so we have fifty different states. So think of those experiments, have fifty different experiments on lots of different things gun control laws vary in every state so we can look at the outcomes, and that's also pretty clear. The more guns people have the gun violence, and homicides. There are and so on, although that's complicated. But anyway and taxes, you know. But I don't think there's. It depends on the goal you're after. So if you say, well, we wanna bring as much business to our state, and so we're gonna have no income tax. And we're gonna have a low business rate, tax low capital gains tech, whatever. And that's your goal. Okay, fine. But then, how's that going to fact, the poor members of your state, and so on, is that going to gut their social programs while we don't care about the social programs? Then there's some other states says we care more about the social programs that we care about the business. Okay. So those are all experiments. I'm not sure what that you could say. Well, that was the right one, you could say the data, we collected show that if you do this, you'll get these outcomes, and if that's what you want. And that's what you should do. But if you want this other thing, okay. So salmon I agree on the kind of the big picture that, you know, human flourishing the flourishing of santee and beans, survive on whatever you wanna say it. Yes. Of course that we, we know how to do that in the in the law. Large picture. But the specifics are Messier the abortion issue is not, not simple. It's not simple. They're often we end up with conflicting rights right to the mother, the rights of the fetus. Where does the fetus right start and talk, and there I'm not sure more data will give us the answer give us more answers more data's better. So this why worry about conservatives cutting funding for research on gun violence? You need to know. More about this, why it happens? There's that study that I often cite, if you have a gun in your house, you are twenty two times more likely to shoot yourself your spouse or friend, or your friends shoots, you or your kid gets the gun, the friends kid kids friends, get the versus you shoot. A bad guy. Casually air. You know, good guy with the gun does shoot. A bad guy with the gun. Okay. Good. All right, fine. But twenty two two times more than that, is somebody innocent gets shot with a gun or somebody loses their temper, and so on, now that, my, my gun proponents telling me that's bullshit. The study was flawed and they go on and on about it. Okay. How about we do twenty more studies, so we can get to the well, there's no more funding for that? Why? Well, because we don't wanna know. Well, maybe I'm straw manning, the conservative argument there. But that's kind of what I these guys pretty well. John Lott debated bunch of times. He's gotta wrote that book, more guns, less crime. Yeah. He has his whole story that, you know, that criminals drive around neighborhoods. And they find out that everyone in this neighborhood has a gun. So they leave that neighborhood alone. Like they know this calculating this. On knowledge. Events. Plus the person. Experts are. Field this. He will leave. President. It doesn't believe experts. Yeah. So two things on that. One of the appeals of conspiracy theories as they simplify things, and that is easier for most of us much preferrable a scarier answer, then that the aluminum body is running the world or grail. Ian lizard people in New Mexico running the world or whatever. No one's running the world like holy shit. No one's writing the world complex. It's messy. And it's like watching gasping these experts on TV talking about the price of gas like. No one knows what having somebody knows. Okay. Anyway, it's like that. So that's, that's part of the appeal of the simplicity, there is this pushback against experts one hundred percent convinced really, that's a global problem or a national problem that more and more people are rejecting experts by medical doctor friends. Tell me that it is troublesome. When patients come in after consulting, Dr Google about their disease, and they've got it all figured out. And, you know, who are you a medical doctor to tell me, you know, and that, that's a concern some of the stuff is in that category? I would say, but to be fair steel man. The other side experts often do get it wrong and they are in their own paradigm 's, and they're locked in and they miss stuff. This does happen a lot cluding science. We're now going through this replication problem in most of the social psychology that, you know, they just can't replicate these classic experiments, something like forty percent. I have not been replicated the stuff you see in psych one textbooks every undergraduate learns, that's a concern. Those were done by experts. Okay. So, you know, the peer review system is not perfect. It's you know, there's so much time consumption, on the part of the experts who doing their own research, stop where you're doing and read this five thousand word technical paper with statistics and tell us if it's publishable. Okay, how much of that time is this person going to sit there and go, okay? I'm not going to go into my lab for three hours and I'm going to work on this paper because I said, I would for this journal something I'm not getting paid for it. This is the reality peer review. I mean, this is just and we rely on those people, and it's not always reliable. That's part of the problem.

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Trend Alert: Escape Room Murder, Egg Is OUT HERE 1.15.19

The Daily Zeitgeist

1:11:15 hr | 2 years ago

Trend Alert: Escape Room Murder, Egg Is OUT HERE 1.15.19

"The most serial killers don't make any effort to involve media or best Gators. They're very secretive. They don't want attention. They almost want their crimes to go unnoticed, but the idea of committing a crime, and then calling up the police and bragging about it. That's a whole 'nother level of terror. A man who wore a mediaeval style executioner's hood who has baffled the police and baffled the media. He seems to crave publicity. He sent letters and Ramsden newspapers and police subject stated how ought to report a murder. No, a double murder. I did it. Here. We are fifty years to the first sodium killing in today's world, forensics old cases are being solved who doesn't wanna know. How turns out? From the creators of Atlanta monster come season two. This is monster vizo yet killer. Listen as subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app. Hello the internet and welcome to season sixty five episode to dare dailies. I guys the podcast. We take a deep dive into America's share consciousness using the headlines box office reports TD ratings what's trending on googles. And so she means it's Tuesday January fifteenth two thousand nineteen names, Jack O'Brien AK, this is a portmanteau. Brian courtesy of trade ganging them throw the joins as always by my co host Mr. miles gray by us, it fix it brush. Jane, get miles of Reagan charge it pointed zoom crested snap. It were kicked Ricky Reyes it technologic signal logic. Okay. Thank you to Hannah soldiers for that one that punk. Remember that one that was the sampled in that Busta rhymes song enough. Okay. I it was two thousand six or seven anyway. So thank you for that one. And I always think about that song. He raise it is. Let's how that robots okay? Okay, raise it yet. Your quickey raise it outright, dip, wealth just wrap it up there. She got a great show, and you can get more stuff like that this weekend. Live guys, we have a live TV episode coming to you at SF sketch fest is eleven thirty Saturday night, go to live nation or the punchline website or SF sketch fast or the SF sketch fed dot com. It's eleven thirty Saturday night. So this is what you're going to be doing instead. Come on people who stay up late. Late this late for starting. Hers out there. Yeah. But it won't be. I I'll be up. I'm gonna get up for the show guys really Saturday night and Sunday morning. Yeah. Knowing guys asleep over joke like that church jokes. Yeah. We gotta get for church. Pretty soon gay. Oh, well, we're thrilled. Join in air third seat by the very funny writer and podcast or Courtney Kodak. He back. Oh, yes. Welcome back from your travels. Minnesota. Oh trip to hang out with your family and get some really intense family time, and then come back to LA and just be like totally different world. Was it? A is it snowing over there? Minnesota you get snow up there. Some snow on the ground. It was there. Yeah. You're Courtney Kozak of the Minnesota co sacks all my I just put. Wow. Okay. I think my grandpa worked with your uncle. Well, we're thrilled to have you. We're going to get to know you a little bit better in a moment. First we're going to tell our listeners couple of things we're talking about really. This whole episode is going to be devoted to apologizing for Monday's episode in which we told you that the rock had said, something that wasn't awesome. And in fact, he was misquoted or the quote was totally made up. We're gonna polish he said one hundred percent for the record never furtive record or to record. So yeah, we'll maybe be able to move on for that. But mostly it's just to be self-flagellation about that. Yeah. But we recorded it before that came out. We didn't just ignore his. Give us this sit by like, no, we saw that still think still printed a dick. We're going to talk about the weekend box office. We're gonna talk about where our fearless leader. Our president is at these days. The headline on drudge report is that his approval rating is at its lowest and things aren't looking up from here as we're gonna talk about that. We're going to talk about the teachers strike in LA all that and more. But first, Courtney we'd like to ask our guest. What is something from your search history that is revealing about who you are deep down as a human being oh deep down. Well, so I was home in Minnesota. And it super bummed me out that all of main street had been wiped out in my little hometown is your is the main street literally called main street in your home. Literally mainstream. I grew up in LA. So these things are so Quainton like it's called mainstream, and it's like five blocks long. But there were five drugstores at four drugstores on main street when I was growing up and now I drove through and there's duro or they'll just shuttered up. Yeah. Well one's like trying to be a gym. They're like re purposed into these odd little businesses that are not being patriots. Yeah. So it super bummed me out. And I was like how I was just racking my brain. I was like what industry could come here to revitalize revitalizes town in the my mom's like, oh, they're having a little shark tank competition with like, you know, like it's just twenty thousand dollars, but they're like trying to bring into town. So I was searching, I'm not a businessperson. I'm probably not gonna figure this out. I was like what are the best ecommerce businesses to start? I was searching all that kind of stuff. Right. Right. Because you're trying to bring money back to your town. I wish Zych gang look into it. Jackson minnesota. Shame airport you have to fly into I've Lou into Sioux Falls, South Dakota, think ninety minutes away. Does that is that one of those ones that lands on a lake like a puddle hopper? An actual airport, but it's tiny. It's like the terminals aren't a one or whatever it's one two three four five also gates. Yes. And do you think for drugstores was maybe excessive? Do you think? Maybe too many drugstores navy, but like in the earth, you know, ten years prior. That was probably the right amount. Right. Then those went onto business, but really it's WalMart's fault. Yes. Well, that's what they do the Waltons. Yeah. They do. They just kinda suck up all the resources from a distance. And then. Yeah. So is there a nearby WalMart that like twenty minutes away? I remember the debate about should we bring a WalMart to town. No for real. And it's like, yes, you should have at least. I mean, at least you would have something. Well, but at the cost of rugged all those little drugstores, you know, what I mean? Dilemma with alarm twenty minutes away, then would becoming to Jackson versus Brian instead of ice versa. Oh, you're saying for the WalMart to be in Jacksonville. Oh, so now, you have something we're going to preserve this thing. And it's like that was exactly the wrong Monterey. Yeah. They destroy all those mom and pop business. People will drive twenty minutes away for that super cheap. Opioids and all that good snus sweet sweet Pap. Yeah. What is something? You think is underrated. Underrated okay to come here and chill for a major corporation. But but north of grummin Taco Bell, you guys it's the best place to give vegetarian fast food. We were just talking about this yet and they're rolling out there. Are you talking about the new vegetarian menu? Yeah. You can have a different combinations for every day for twenty thousand years. That's how the menu is. Now. I love it. You're vegetarian. Yeah. I've started once in a while eat fish, but. Yeah. For the most polka did you always eat a Taco Bell? Because you know, you get the the being rice and cheese or being cheeseburger dough and look, oh, no, no. You can get a Taco Bell like that. We that was like the one veggie, you know, you can get you can get stuff before. It's always been a great. But now you're feeling good because they're expanding. Yeah. Yeah. They serving we'll shout out to yum brands, isn't as a parent company. Yeah. Yeah. They got kids. The drinking water resources and other countries unsure sure too. But anyway, what's your favorite menu item at Taco Bell for vegetarian? I get a crunch rap supreme with beans instead of. That sounds really good. Yeah. I never had a crunch rep supreme until thanksgiving when you're taking a road trip and her majesty was told by a co worker like you'll if you've never had the crunch rap supreme get the contracts. Primoz? I don't know. I had. I was like, okay. I see what I see what the deal is. There's so many textures, right? You can eat it in the car while you're driving mess. It's just a handheld disc of. Clogging. What is your favorite fast food item period for vegetarians is that it the crunch supreme just a billboard? Well, fast fast. Yes. Otherwise, like AAA it'll get out of your car. Right. Right. Right. Well, if you get out of the car, the world's voiced. Yeah. Veggie grill. Also, good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. What do you get a you grow? They have little buffalo wraps me too. The buffalo bomber. Get us. What is something? You think is overrated. I am. So sick of this con- Mari bullshit. The what the Omaria condo, Mererani condo. What's it? Yeah. Whatever her name is that I've seen a million times. Yes. Yes. Yes. Five days. Have you watched it? I haven't watched it. I. The book. I did the audible of the book, and I was like this should be one page. Is such a simple idea. But I listened to the whole thing so sad. But yeah, you know, we don't we don't need to do that. Brought to touch every item to see if it gets you joy, just, you know, throw your shit away or let it stack up like just live your life. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it makes sense in Japan where space is very limited for people like in their apartments and things like that. Like, you can't you don't really have the luxury of being able to hoard. And if you do it's probably like a danger to your safety. Maybe sugary to me because I wanted to do it. And I think that's what it is though. Right. Because also, I could hold something in my mind. Be like, oh, yeah. I feel something it might not be that. It brings me joy. It could be that the panic about me what if I needed in five years, I know also as a writer, I use shit. I go back sometimes into reconstruct a story a little bit like I want to check myself, and I need some of the paper that stacked up or whatever you really you. Go back through like piles of papers that nap house a paper. But like sometimes they'll look pictures or. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like clothing or home items are like easy to get rid of. I don't horde that kind of stuff. I'm like I love history. So anything that has some kind of historical or like, a value like in in a nostalgic way. I'm like, I can't I can't get rid of that. Right. That was the that was the hand the Turkey hand drawing. I made in kindergarten right? And so all those actually. Oh, yeah. Your desk is covered with Turkey over Turkey handwriting's crumpled up old Brown shopping bags made some like deer skins caveman. Ryan all of your book covers for exactly when you have to do that in public school ever make your own book your own book covers. Yeah. I oh, man. I used to do the do the comic section. Yeah. Yeah. Or just do the Brown paper bag and then draw wild studios on it. Well, also with Marie condo. So it's a reality show. Right. And like that makes you feel worse about yourself, which isn't reality TV to like make us feel like better people by watching people treat each other. Well, I think it's all depends on how you're what your disposition is right now, you can watch it and be like oh fuck I I need to get on this wave right? Or you could be like Courtney and be like fuck. No. I'm not watching it though. But I think people that it appeals to our. Yeah. On the self help tips. So they're like more just how you're wired like, I don't mind, I don't need to have everything decluttering immediately. There are people who've the visual mess just stresses them out. And I think for those people this is the kind of thing I give them the tools to declutter shit. Oh, yeah. But you know, teach their own if you want to be a sloppy hordes of sloppy hoard. And. Finally, what is a myth. What's something people? Think is true, you know, to be false. Okay. So this is my hardest category guys. But I would say that rejection is a bad thing. I'm being totally serious. I was did you guys read the New York Times thing that Emily winters wrote about getting rejected hundred times. No. So that was like horizon Lucien last year and mine was the same mine was actually two hundred but we calculated slightly different experiences. Much rejection as possible be just as like a freelance creative person. Like, I'm I'm a perfectionist. And so I was like I just need to descend Sitai myself a little and and go for it. And it is totally a numbers game. So anyway, it unlocked all kinds of shit last year. I just wrote about this, right? But you had a terrible year in your career last year. And we noticed it's actually. Worse years. Well, yeah. So what was that like going from perfectionist to like repeated exposure therapy to reject just like, oh, this is it was like a key that unlocked. A you know, what my career could look like just like win for it a little high, right rather? Like, I I made way more money freelancing than I did the year before I got way more bylines. I got you know, I got a byline that was like one of my goal, you know, Washington Post, and you know, right now, I have more of those to get in the future. But I was like, oh, you know, this is more of how it should be pursuing. Sure. We'll yeah. And you're saying you're pushing back against people who are like protections. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had that belief. Inherent fear of failure. Yeah. I think we're wired that way. Well, and so many people to like you look at people how many people like might stall on their careers till very later in life, and they're like the whole time. I wanted it. I just wasn't there. Mentally to allow myself to open myself up to the threat of like, I guess ego, an eyelash of being rejected or whatever it is your own self worth shit that holds you back. I shouldn't be going for this yet or whatever ready for this. This just fucking let the river take, you know, don't don't hold onto the rocks along the way because it's going to fast. You know, what I mean the only way around us through right? Gotta take that take that conflict. And did you hit your number? Did you get to two hundred? Yeah. I actually should. Well, I counted if I followed up with someone in after a couple of times, I didn't hear back, right? That's. So I kind of those, but I got over shrank order. Got like two hundred. I can't go to Colorado anymore. And you didn't have to cram at the end of the year. And just be like, hey, I want a million dollars. It was no. Rejections? Valleys. But I did like a lot in the spring actually was me. My busiest time of getting rid of so much work to get rejected two hundred times. What also changes your process, right because you go from everything being a maker break situation or everything is riding on this one amendment or opportunity to becoming more of like having more of a scientific process on where you're experimenting. We're like this works. This didn't this works. This did. Okay. And I can sharpen it. Yeah. But in it's not that many because sometimes it was like the same piece that was going out. And it's like for reasons that I have no control over that place wasn't going to run it. And sometimes I'd send them out like in pretty quick succession because you know, right? It was time sensitive or whatever. So it's so great. It's not like, I just you had two hundred ideas that didn't get used. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. Yeah. It's not that you are have bad ideas. Hustled your ass off. Yeah. I mean, that's a great way to think like thinking like that helped me get around some social anxiety, just being like, okay? I am learning from this. And every time I'm uncomfortable. I'm getting better at the experience. And so you almost go out seeking like the thing that you used to be afraid of this. Yeah. That helps you allow there's so much valuable information in something not going right to write like if he's going, right? You have very little reason to change your thinking, or at least be a little more self aware or analyze yourself. But the worst thing that you can do I think is like close yourself off to it rejection. Normally does. Staying and then he just become inert. You know? What? I mean, if you don't really go and try and expand yourself. Well, actually, I have to correct you the worst thing you can do is report on something that the rock was misquoted. Okay. That is the worst thing you can do because our listeners were not happy with us, which is understandable. It was it was a bit of a timing thing where we recorded before he corrected the record. But you know, this is something to always keep in mind that the British tabloid media is there on some shit air on some shit. They're willing to straight make shit up. Now, did he now this this is the other question asking do we know what really happened here, did they Frankenstein a bunch of other things together out of grind checks to make? I don't know if he is just, you know, more powerful and so much more likable than the British tabloid press. That people are just like, yeah, they probably made it up willing to go with I handled it maybe they took a different word from like five different sentences to, you know, make it seem like he was being more opinionated than he is. I don't want to judge him at all. Because. Yeah, the the media can be fucked up about stuff like this, and the rock is obviously super naturally likable. And you know, there's a reason for that. He used to be a Republican, though, guys just keep that in mind people up at the conventions. Yep. Get the voter turn out hypes. Yeah. But then you know, when they asked if he was gonna run as a Republican. He's like, nah, I'm too smart. Right. I'm an independent. Yes. At least, you know. That's the thing. Like, even if he is a Republican, I don't really have a problem with it because he's not dealing with like the the fucked parts of being a conservative to what from what I can see like, he's xenophobic shit. May if he is on this like, you know, snowflake ISM thing if it was true, and he was pushing back against, you know, the the idea that people are just looking for a reason defendant that would make me scratch my head a little bit. But yeah, I think there's room to be a chill conservative as my favorite spiritual. Guru Kevin Hart said we have to make room for people to learn and grow. So shit. No, but. Yeah, arab-ad, and you know, now now, you know, that we record Monday's episode. Also, Jack has a wild elbow size Mark on his chest. Brew. Yeah. The rock found him and deliver him. That's right in the middle boulevard. Didn't say it was just the millennials are the snowflake generation, right? Well, yeah. And this other thing of like that all these people fought for our freedom. And it just it read like just a tot- like like, Fox News thinking another reason to be offended about anything now setting us back. Yeah. And it's like setting us back, and I was putting it in the context of him calling VIN. Diesel candy ass on the set of fast and the furious. But again, I don't know the whole story there, it just it read, I sometimes occasionally get very intense gym teacher vibes from the rock. But this I have no right to bring those vibes up in the context of this story because fuck the British tabloid media. If you haven't seen the documentary tabloid. That should as wild by Earl Morris. It's about the British tablet median how they will just make up a story, basically. Should we check that out? Yeah. Should we talk about the box office? Let's talk about the box office get well. My main man Kevin Hart was number one against industry speculation. They didn't think the movie would break ten million his new movie the upside with Bryan, Cranston. Seeing the poster is about him pushing him in a wheelchair and smiling. Yes, basically. Manson is in the wheelchair. He's playing a paraplegic and Kevin Hart is his like nurse caretaker. And it's based on this French movie called the in touch Ables from number of years back like five or maybe a decade. I don't know how time works anymore 'cause I'm old. But it was this good French movie. I saw it wasn't great. And then I realized that I had confused French with like critically acclaimed because the first movie wasn't like critically. Well, reviewed it was just like a feel good movie that did really well at the French box office. But I'm not surprised that this movie did really well. And it got an ace cinema score. It's just like a audience pleasing movie that critics don't vibe with will. Yeah. I mean, I think with all the news and shit and the state of the world like people need these kind of soothing films like, yeah. And they like each other, right? The paraplegic dude is a billionaire. So there's like wish fulfillment stuff. And he they go on all sorts of fun adventures together. There is a scene in which Kevin Hart's characteristic is comedic sensibility of homophobia comes through where he's unwilling to even look at a catheter. And or he can't even say the word penis because he's supposed to which just the worst nurse ever. But. Medical professionals. He's not helping my client with any and another way that this movie ties into the news of the past. Couple of years is that this was a Weinstein company joint that was bought up at auction after the Weinstein company, basically dissolved, and it was going to be more of a challenging are rated movie, and this company that bought it auction just cut it down to a PG thirteen focused on the field goody bibles, and they were apparently smart to do that from a business perspective. One thing that we missed last week that I just wanted to raise is that at number five on the box office charts and last week did surprisingly, well was escape room a horror movie about escape rooms what which is like they were in a escape room that like the consequences were real I forgot I'm assuming it's like jigsaw shit. Right. The saw movies, which I don't know are you guys escape room. Irs I did an escape room in Korea town. And it was so it was so boring. I can't imagine that this was. Yeah. I guess if the stakes are real, let's the the synopsis six adventure strangers traveled to a mysterious building to experience the escape room a game where players compete to solve a series of puzzles to win ten thousand dollars just for ten Rex. What starts out as a seemingly innocent fund soon turns into a living nightmare as the four men and two women could ratio. Discover each room in is an elaborate trap this part of a sadistic game of life or death lose player game. Okay. So it's like saw and escape. I was actually an episode of castle the TV show that is this exact low. Really, I think that's what it was. It was like one of those real high. Yeah. The I watched well hung over. I would play escape I have not had the opportunity all all my friends have been playing. But whenever they go out of town or doing something else. And was like you love the escape right because I like puzzle. You're a puzzle head. I'm a puzzle. Fucking creep. Well, I've been kicked out of puzzles so many times because I'm just so perplexing puzzling. So I mean it. Yeah. It appeals to me. But I've not done one yet. So, but I don't see why like just as a concept. I'm like. Yeah. Go in and flex your brain a little bit clues and share. They're very hit or miss. I would say there's some times when they are. Are intricately, you know, imagined from the perspective of like, it's almost like being in a saw movie written by somebody who's not a Hollywood screenwriter. I right. And so they make some about what how your mind is going to work with the game that aren't very export. Or like I had one experience with her majesty actually back when we work together where we like the people kept having to come on. And be like, no, no, you're going to want to think about it this way when this other completely different way, and like basically had to hold our hand through. And then we're like, well you guys do. Well, thanks for helping us the whole. A certain you're going to break that if you rent holding on it. I don't know inclusive. Yeah. I think part of the experience to is like the performance of it. Right. So if the people that are putting on this scape remark. Very good. It's not very good. Actors. Yeah, we had some does I've done two and none of them had actors. Oh weird. Yeah. You were just locked in a room. Get different clues. That was what you. Hi, welcome to as wild scientific. Could be a Fe. Yeah. You got ten minutes. It was just sad because we're in LA, right? Like all these people want to be acting for a and they were. I haven't done one in LA, and I feel like that would be the place to do it so much acting giving you like EMMY caliber performances now. Like, even overacting or just checked out. Like, I don't like my job can't be not in a way that I wanted to watch. Right. Right. Well, anyways, rooms are huge wave that. We haven't really talked about on dailies ak-, so escaped room suggestions, I gang. So I can whenever we come to your talents escape room date. Yes. San Francisco hit us up because we're going to be there. I don't know if we mentioned that this weekend. Are we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. Hey miles. Yes. Some cool ideas, man. Always noticed that about you've been reading my manifesto. Yeah. The spoke coffins Espo coffins item tone. You know, and you man, people like this stuff. They wanna made out of like old Wrigley, gum packages. Ooh, whatever. Yeah. Look, it's all based on what your vibe is so lit. Thank you. Anyways. I have a way for you to showcase your work. Okay. For you to blog or publish your content, sell products and services of all kinds o cousin need to be bespoke coffins, I don't think yet doesn't. Okay. And also now they are featuring new e Email campaigns, which will keep the design of your content consistent across all platforms, including Email. It is. Of course, our good friends at squarespace off. Course, I know them. Yes. Squarespace is the best place to go to create a website that looks great that functions. Great one. It's not just websites. Yeah. Do online stores. Marketing tools, and they give you like analytic. So you can be smarter about how you run your online presence and run your business. Exactly. So guys, go to squarespace dot com slash TD's, e for a free trial and wing radio launch us, the offer code TD's, e to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website, or domain. And we're back and miles. I don't know if you noticed, but the top headline on drudge yesterday morning was Trump popularity at year low which that is not good for him. Because that you know, the shit has hit the fan. But now it appears to be slowly leaking into the maga- bubble like compulsively check dredge to see like what the right is thinking. And it's usually like a crazy new story. We'll be going on in the mainstream media then on drudge it'll be like Trump's popularity pups to fifty percent says they only consult as one NewsPoll Rasmussen. But now, it seems like I don't know. He's even even his little mega bubble is kind of deflating. Visit though I think it is. What's wait? So what does he pull in it? So according to five thirty eight it's the lowest since September. So fivethirtyeight does a weighted average of all the polls. That's neat. Silvers website. And this isn't the lowest his approval has been all year. He was at he's at forty point seven approval. Fifty four percent disapproval so thirteen percent underwater, and he was at thirty nine point nine approval fifty four disapproval so fourteen percent underwater. So it's pretty close to being at a year long low. But I think that bad news for Trump is that. So the last time he was at this level was after there was just this steady. Drumbeat of Muller report news, right? If they're just kept coming out and Cohen coming out for. Yeah. Manafort, just all that shit where it was people are that seems to affect his overall how how people are feeling about his presidency. And this is seems more related to the shutdown because we hadn't we hadn't had too much Muller. News until the end. Of last week. And you know, this is still probably too early for the polls to reflect the fact that the F B I thinks he might be a Russian agent. Yeah. Yeah. We're Russian asset. I'm sorry isn't support for the wall though, among his base or it's growing. I mean, isn't that one of the statistics came out this weekend to that? It's like strengthened among his base or. Yeah. In in the Republican base like their and even. Yeah, they're like more for the wall than they've ever been because of the shutdown so fucked up, right? Well, it could be climbed because a majority still does not support it or at least of Americans. Yeah. That's I think we'll because as this just becomes more of like, a a little of a battle in the culture war. Right. One of those things like they don't want to blink. Because they pulled up with that energy the election announced. I think also to like Trump is starting to see like there. There are limits to his power now like he before he kinda get things moving one direction or another. But it's clear like right now, he's he's tapped most of his political capital to even try and get this done. I think now Republicans like at least in the Senate or trying to figure out like, okay is Mitch McConnell actually gonna do some rain or are you just going to let this keep going into freefall? Yeah. But hey, you know, that's the. That's the play. They wanna run with. They didn't learn from the midterms when they ran on a AAC immigrants bad message and got just the shit kicked out of them in the house in the house, and it might have short up a little bit. But I think support even then right because there were there were massive the district. Swung complete other way into the blue column in the house. But I think they just use like picking up two Senate seats and defending against Beddoe Aurora in a few other things to be like they took that to be like, no, we are actually doing. Well. Right. But you know, well. Well, we'll see how long they keep doing this. Because what this is now fourth week going into the fourth we longest ever Yesh. Yeah. And he said at the outset that he was willing to own it. So yeah, I I'd imagine that within his base, you know, there was probably a portion of people who because he hadn't like brought it to the forefront like he would mention it in rallies here and there, but for the most part he was willing to just burner it because I think people in his administration, and even he kinda knew it was more of a rhetorical device during the election. And then now he has brought it to the forefront and made it a huge policy issue, and yet miles like you said any time, it becomes part of the culture war that his his base was going to rally behind him. But overall, there appears to be a handful of people who are like, yeah. But you're hurting real people. And there's there's just something a mistake. Early incompetent that somebody who can't keep the government open when they're running the government shutdown disproportionately affects that people that support him most the states that support this for sure, but let's talk about the revelations at the end of last week that the F B I after the firing of James Komi kind of reframed the investigation into Russian intervention in the election and Trump's relationship with Russia to at least incorporate the possibility that Trump maybe a asset of the Russian government. So not an agent he's not like a secret agent who was brought up by the KGB and trained to like, it's not it's not that movie shit. It's just an asset means that they have something on him that allows them to manipulate manipulate his behavior. Yeah. Exactly. Well, yeah. When you look at it like all the things. That Trump's done from a foreign policy aspect typically benefits, Vladimir Putin from like changing the platform of the Republican party to like trying to like panic pull out a Syria and all these other things. Yeah. It makes it look like, okay. So I mean, we know we've accepted that Russia was fucking around during the election to help him get elected. And then we see all these people in his orbit were also interacting with Russians for one reason or another usually for the purpose of lifting sanctions Ray. So they can get their money flowing again. And now. Yeah, like when they fired James Comey FBI is like, okay, let's check that. This guy isn't an actual like isn't somehow being manipulated controlled by Russia in some way. Right. And it seems like I don't know. This is not surprising based on, you know, a number of things his performance at the Helsinki, the, stinky and Helsinki as nobody calls it or. Or the fact just that he's very reliable in terms of his ideas, the things that come out of his mouth seemed to be ingested via conservative media, either FOX and friends or you know, rush or who whoever it is. But there's also these pro Russia policies that come out that nobody can really say where they're coming from like, all right, right. It's just like the thing in the word salad of Trump that doesn't totally fit with the rest of the Pat. You mean like when he was like re writing history about Afghanistan. Yes. Exactly. What was the other thing? He was talking about Montenegro attack Russia, which was that Rick, right? After in wasn't that right after he met with him in Helsinki Tucker Carlson. Yes, right. He claimed that. So this is a we we talked about this at the time, but Montenegro is a small country that Russia is claiming is a threat to them. So that they can kind of ramp up militarism and. Be prepared to invade other countries in, you know, start their slow roll across the globe militarily and the only other person who's really supporting that idea. Besides Putin is Putin, allies and Trump. So the thing I've always heard from people who aren't willing to buy into the Russia investigation is oh, well, that's not the worst thing in the world for America to have a leader. Who is pro Russian the same way that like Obama was pro Cuba, and we didn't investigate him. But it just seems like there's a difference there. There's no clear aim. There's no clear source of the ideas. Transcripts right? And that's to shady is a good point. So can you explain a little bit? What that is. Well, it came out this weekend. I pray that from all five meetings. He's had since he's become president with him. Or however, many there are he's either like sworn than turpitude or secrecy or taking this transcript or both always takes the notes. He always takes the note from the and they're supposed to be classified right Erta to extort a certain extent in then shared with the administration past administrations there would be people who would take the notes, and then you would release that. So people know what the hell's going on? If nothing sensitive was being spoken about. So you have an idea of what the interaction was ready. But this one there's there's no record of what was said who was talking for how long right anything. Yeah. And like you said pressing the interpreted be like fuck tell anybody would you heard right foot. You get you here does. Yeah. No shit. And let's and what's while though too. Is that? It's being hidden from his staff at the highest levels. Right. Even the closest aides have no fucking idea. What happened subpoena that like she should testify? Yeah. That's what they're valuing the, stinky and Helsinki yet interpreter pull up and be like, what did the what the fuck where they? Yes. Sweating. Yeah. And there's also the fact that he and people like Kushner have consistently lied about, you know, having back channels with Russia and any communication meeting with Russia's. Yeah. Well, you know, he's the president of the United States, and he always has our interests. Hey, but he's he's willing to face questions about this. Because he went on noted Trump adversary Janine bureau. Trump to judge Janin's circus. I think the show is called on FOX. She asked him straight up if he'd ever worked, you know, it's bad when she's asking them the hard hitting question. But she was just like, you know, have you ever worked for Russia? And let's just listen to his answer. Because it was it was a lot. So I'm gonna ask you are you now or have you ever worked for Russia? Mr president. She's the most insulting thing I've ever been asked. I think it's the most insulting article I've ever had written. And if you read the article you'd see that they found absolutely nothing. But the headliner that article it's called the failing New York Times for reason they've gotten your own for three years. They've actually gotten me wrong for many years before that. But you look at what's going on. You know, I fired James Coney I-. I call him lion. James Komi back because he was a terrible liar. And he did a terrible job as the FBI director look at what happened with Hillary Clinton. And they said, no Hillary Clinton invest. Gatien one of the biggest screw upset anybody's ever seen as an especially Gatien. And what happened after I fired him. Andrew MacKay Peter Struck his lover Lisa page hit it, and you know, they're all gun. Most of those people many many people from the top ranks of the FBI. They've all been fired or they had to leave. And they're all gun. This is what they were talking about. And obviously nothing was found, and I can tell you this. If you ask the focuses, right? Chef. No than anybody else. Any other probably any other president period, but since leaving last three or four presidents modern day presidents. Nobody's been as tough as I have from any standpoint, including the fact that would. Never setting records in our country with oil and exporting oil and many other things look. So that was not convincing at all. Because it was a yes or no question. And he went on the Anderton now is to him on Monday. He was asked again outside the White House. And he was like, no never. I don't think my suspicion was oh, well, he's not willing to lie about that. I just think there's like an unconscious thing where he's like talking away from the lie and just saying nothing was found. He's just unintentionally betraying himself by continuously referring to it as like nothing being found as opposed to the reality of the situation. So the the New York Times is not an investigative body. They're not a law enforcement thing. So they're reporting on what was going on. It's not that they found anything therefore innocent. Right. You know? But I just like how it's says he's go. Oh my God. Let me start just rattling off some greatest hits real quick. Yeah. I'm the toughest Russia lion. James cone. Any? I mean Komi like Oni sounds donate twenty twelve twenty twelve. Yeah. Yeah. I think it definitely I'm surprised. He didn't try and redefine what worked. What do you mean work? I've never worked for Russian. They would have a check this is from the Russian federation. No have all hooked Vladimir Putin up with some work. Right. Yeah. So I don't like the premise of the question. Yeah. But yeah, we'll see I think, but that's the thing. You know, like just like how you said there's no collusion. Right. I didn't know anything about that. You know, like he'll say stuff like that. And then walk it back. It was like what still meant that bright. I was just answering that question directly. How you framed it to me are posed. It didn't say we'd pay for the wall. I said that they would pay with with tax trade deficit or being balanced out which doesn't anyway. Yeah. We're we're gonna pay for it. Yeah. So it's it's interesting. It's an interesting time to just keep an eye on the president and think even how he's being covered. 'cause I don't know the the media, I think the media has just been overwhelmed by this presidency. And there's just too much for them to keep up with. And so this is all of them formation that we're now taking a second look at are things that when they broke we were like oh shit. He must be Russian asset because of like how he was behaving and Helsinki. But it's just it gets. You know, snowed under by all the other madness. And yeah, yeah. Well, it's one of those like you said are it's just there are so many connections to Russia at every level. Yes. You know that even if you know, he could very well be an unwitting asset. Right. I mean, where he very well might not have some kind of real sort of properly articulated agreement with Russia, Vladimir Putin, yet just certain things based on like the environ. Around him like lead him to certain outcomes. Yeah. The New York magazine was speculating that it could be sexual or financial blackmail, and if it's sexual it probably won't be found out because that sort of thing is kept very close to the vest by the people doing the black mailing. But if it's financial he's fucked. So this may be for the first time time for the resistance to start hoping there is no p tape because. Right because that would make it harder for something to show up in the Muller report. I think the only thing that will ever show up about the P tape other than the p tape leaking is you know, what what we saw in that. Hey is what we saw on the steel who knows you might. He might have that shit. You know, what I mean on a little USB drive, and he's like I have the tape to. I've right. Yeah. He'll know. Sure. Coming to a barbershop near you, don't we already know though enough now publicly that it's like if Muller has any more. More stuff. I mean, that's it's it all looks. So so so bad rate, but it's all political and writes all about how it's being covered by the mainstream media. And I think they are overwhelmed. They're doing their best. I just don't know if they're up for it to convincingly give us reality. Checks on just how crazy a lot of the shit is. Yeah, what's sad though? To regard like, you know, a lot of people are there's mumblings that maybe the mole report doesn't really it might be a real anti-climactic report or whatever. And you know, we've always said we never expected the mall report to be like there. It is game over right continue enter to any five cents or whatever know like, you know, I think who knows what it's going to be. But at the end of the day, there's not the political will from the Republicans to hold him accountable because there were plenty of things I'll outside of the Russia shit that you would have been like this guy is a wholly unfit to lead the country, right, regardless of whatever Russia the Russia aspect of it is. Yes, the decisions he's making with the tree. Moment of people or like, the national security apparatus. It's like there's so much shit. But it's just you know, publicans don't wanna turn on him yet. Yeah. And it's not just the mainstream media fault because he has done some pretty sophisticated things in the creation of the idea of fake news and stuff, but you know, it's all shit that dictators have done before. And it's like straight out of the Soviet dictator playbook. So, yeah, we'll we'll just keep paying attention. Stay tuned. Excite gang. Yeah. Stay tuned. We'll have the answers or not who knows. All right. We're going to take another quick break. We will be right back. I can't believe it that Gerald is presenting the quarterly budget report with finger puppets. Look here comes one point seven percent decrease in fixed overhead I know everybody. No, I can't believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on car insurance with gyco. You dope rejected increase in organic coutry revenue. Believe it. Geico could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. Indoor back and the teachers of the LA USD are on strike. Yup. Thirty thousand thirty thousand teachers, and I don't know what can you give us the update on this miles? Look teachers across the country for the last forever like ever since. We've systematically just been defunding education, a country nationwide have been asking for the same thing. Basically, we need dignify -able wages. We can't be coming out of pocket for school supplies and shit like that. And it's just it's very simple. Right. So specifically in the case of the LA unified school district, which is the second largest in the nation. The teachers want a six and a half percent raise they want smaller classrooms. So they can teach better more effectively. It's hard to teach a clashing with over thirty students, and in some cases, forty to fifty students chooses to give them as sort of individual care nurturing to actually make sure they are learning. They're also asking for more support staff like in the form of nurses, librarians. They want to go. Yeah. I I know I know I know what's next champagne breakfasts, nurses, and for nurses and librarians, but supposedly, nurses, like some schools only have a nurse working there. One day a week. She's crew. And then the other Ford the kids they just have to put a band aid on their broken ankle, or whatever and keep it moving. And then there's like, you know, there's an issue of over testing the students there they want a like a five hundred dollars stipend for supplies. So we're no longer having like people overhearing a teacher struggling airplane. Be like, hey, we got everyone on the flight to pitch in twelve hundred dollars. So you can buy construction paper such a good feel good. I really love those capitalism hollow. And they also want to make sure that charter schools are being held accountable because you know, the proliferation of charter schools has just become a huge resource drain on the district like six hundred million dollars annually as being diverted to charter schools, which are basically private schools being run with public money. How does that happen? So it's like in the city's budget that six hundred million is diverted to charter school. Yes. Rather than to the public schools because there are some that, you know, there's the people always say like, oh, it's actually better or even to the quality of education that a regular public school gets most research says that it's at best. It's even or worse in terms of like, the actual education kids get there are charter schools that are that do work. But there's this also another dimension to this whole idea of charter schools too. Because the superintendent in LA is basically he's an investment banker with no background in administration of like education or anything and like. A lot of the people believe that the school board voted him to be superintendent because they want to privatize a lot of the school district here. And when you look at to sort of like, the relationship of investment banking to charter schools, it's wild, okay? Like investment bankers. They're slowly looking at a charter schools me. Like, yo that's a wave if someone to get your money into because it's money. Okay. And there was an interview years ago where this investment banker was on CNBC in the ass. Like, hey, look. So what's going on? Like, we see the a lot of people are introducing like charter schools into their portfolios, and the quote from this guy was well, I think it's a very stable business, very recession resistant, it's a very high demand product product. There's four hundred thousand kids on waiting lists for charter schools, and he's talking about Pennsylvania in this in this case the industry is growing about twelve to fourteen percent a year. So it's high growth, very stable recession resistant business, it's a public payer. The state is the pair if you do business with states with solid treasuries than it's very solid business. Right. So this. Emphasis isn't even on education anymore. And now like, you're we're starting to see this like portfolio model move into the school district, which is what a lot of the people in the teacher's union. Like, that's what this superintendent is trying to do with L at USD and at the detriment to the kids. So, you know, the I think the strike was a long time coming like talks have been breaking down since the summer and into December. But again when you look at like people like Betsy DeVos, who are the kinds of people who are like, I don't really know anything about education, I know about making money off education. That's what the system is sort of moving towards, and that's what they're pushing back against you know, if you know anyone who's a teacher or like most people we've all been to school. You know, how important a teacher is in the time that a teacher puts in can really make or break your educational experience can make you grow as a human being. And I can't emphasize enough. How important it is that like were properly investing in this in our education and not just like we have shit like this going on where? People at the highest income bracket. You're like how do we fuck round with education mcbrayer for this? Yeah. How do we make money off of it? Not it. It's not like how are these children being educated the best? How do we make money? Yeah. And a lot of these schools their cash cows racial makes sense for people to invest in that, and that just begins more lobbying money that goes into elections to try and get candidates who support charter school ideas in regulations and things like that. And so it's it's a very big issue. And I think it's not just in California where you know, or an LA USD that's dealing with. Yeah. And what they're talking about. What that investment bankers talking about is basically taking taxpayer money and just getting it like. Yeah. That going into private hands. Exactly. Yeah. So that would very little accountability. Supposed- supposed- a mar like people who believe in the market like investment bankers and the banking industry like that just doesn't feel like the model that they've. Sold us where like once one like group of bureaucrats decide to like, send six hundred million dollars to various charter schools. So that like, I bankers can get rich. Yeah. That doesn't feel like the whole system. Yeah. And when you look at to what the teachers are asking for the like, it's really clear, you know, like we just need we need to be paid more for our time. Like, we are raising the children of this city, essentially and the school board pushes back or the school district pushes back into. We're already running like a half billion dollar deficit. We've got people's pensions to pay and retirement plans, and all these other things we have to pay, but the union contest that the school district is sitting on about like a surplus of one point eight billion dollars or something. So like the money's there. Right. And you're using really lame rhetoric and arguments against this like, you know, the superintendents like, oh, they're going to bankrupt the school district. Right. If they want it, you know, which is the thing they always say when people want a living wage, right? Oh, well, then. I mean, I don't know how long we can stay in business Renault. It changes your profit margins. But in this case, I think a lot of do when you know, so much money's going to charter schools and things like that. There is a way to solve this. And this is the first time there's been a full on LA USD strike since one thousand nine hundred nine. Oh, yeah. Damn in regards to the surplus. It's not as simple as like there's an account with one point two or one point eight billion dollars in. I heard the superintendent has a vault full of gold coins that he swims and spits them out like water, right? Just like have you ever tried just side note when duck tells came out, I remember my grandfather had a bucket of change is loose change into red. And I remember trying to put like mash my hand or the four zero broke my wrist. Did you really break it almost I cried like I did she's but anyway, back to the story Gavin Newsom the new governor of California did have unveiled a new budget with like a huge amount. I think like one point eight billion dollars going into like early education. But a lot of people like, yeah. That's definitely a good a good amount. But it is not enough considering what the needs are of the state. So as of now, I'm not quite sure where the governor is going to come in to, you know, make things better or not. But you know. As it stands the teachers are on strike. They got a lot of substitutes in the school right now to take over the teaching. But at the end of the day man, invest in these teachers because they man like I remember the good teachers they help they help man. And they Dave to put your time into teaching kids is so important, and you don't want somebody phoning it in like at they work at some escape room. They don't get paid enough for my parents are both teachers they take it really seriously. They shouldn't. Yeah. I'm glad I'll be like. And they are so lax about. Remember, the student's names? I mean, people teachers get a bad rap, but they're like passionate about its who gives teachers about what do you mean? They're they're just not that well respected. Oh, I mean, I think from a bureaucratic standpoint, I guess for anyone you'd hope. Right. I guess most people a lot of people say they're paid too much or whatever not necessarily paid too much. But just like that they're not qua- Cobra. Right. Those who can't teach and she acted shitty. View to take. Well, sure, and there are shitty. Teachers for sure, but I think there's every yet. But there's a lot of people who work in places for like a fucking fraction of what they deserve in terms of their effect on the incoming generations. Anyway, I love teachers shot up to teachers. Yeah. Even though you make us that fucking weird corrective triangle my pencil because you're holding your pencil all wrong. I'm like, I am is my penmanship. Okay. Brad who gives a fuck. Stop policing. My my pencil form. I look like I have crippling arthritis every time I read because of my shitty handwriting 'cause I always took that triangle off. So oh, I took it off. I'm a warning y'all. I used to get in trouble because I was slighted up to the top part of the pencil. Right. And then the teacher would be like you have to put your thing back on. And I'm like, look I'm gonna hold it like wolverine like is clung pencil. I had a terrible way of holding a pencil back in the day. Well, I'm lefty. So I have to let Chroma hand all the way around. Oh, flush terrible grip. Yeah. Real weird. All right. Let's talk. Talk about the big news story of this past weekend. Yeah. Kylie Jenner has been dethroned as the most liked picture on Instagram. Yes. By a photo of an egg. Yeah. Just a little old egg. A little old eg this account the account is called world record egg. And the should is verified. Okay. And it's just people. Like, hey, I thing it just said, let's just a photo of act like a stock photo gets a white background low Brown and the caption underneath it is let's say a world record together and get the most liked post on Instagram beating the current world record held by Kylie Jenner eighteen million. We got this as of right now, it has over thirty three million likes those are votes against Kylie Jenner. Right. That's and that's what I was thinking. I was like this is so odd like what how the fuck did this groundswell of support come out. Out the Democrats need to hire this person immediately. Oh, yeah. They say the person is called Henrietta. Yeah. And it's a chicken I feel like someone tried to interview the account owner, and they were being very coy Ray. And then like, hi, my name's Henrietta, and this is called like Hubert or something the egg had a name to write. But you know, like, they say their gang. If you believe in that. But that that's makes me wonder like is it about people who are just really captivated by the egg. Or are there just thirty three million people willing to put their likes against Kylie Jenner? Yeah. That's what it seems like I don't know, man. That's a beautiful egg. I mean, it's a real close up. No, man. It looks like it's got freckles. It's cute. I like it. No. Yeah. It's clearly just a well framed. The fuck you Kylie Jenner. Do this all the time on social media like the, hey, if you like me, this many times, I'll eat my shoe or whatever, but they won at that game. Let's set a world record together and get the most liked post on Instagram beating the current world record holder held by Kylie Jenner eighteen million. We got this celebration hands. That's just perfectly framed. And you know, they they include you, we got this already. Yeah. Yeah. We need this person working on the twenty twenty for whoever's very, very smart, four point two million followers on that account. Yeah. Good for the eg. What will they do next? Everybody's wondering. Yeah. Oh my God. Please. I hope the eg doesn't get like a weird drug habit or something. Right. I've just seen this too many times. I've seen it too many times. Yeah. The big is interviewed for the most. It's the only post. Oh, that's it. That's a flex its pure. And now like all these people. There are so many memes around now. All right. Well, I love how the egg is looking for more business opportunities with Email exactly in the bio contact world record egg manager at you. Yeah. No, the eggs reffed by UTA. I think yes to them. I mean. Yeah. When they when the bio-pic comes out, it's is going to be just wanted to shout out to Vanity Fair for putting me back on my original conclusion in with their report on the Havana attacks on the embassy. Tax. Yeah. The quote unquote attacks there was the scientific study that came out last week about how the noise that. They had recorded was almost definitely a cricket. And it was just a type of cricket that exists in the tropics, therefore rain. But yeah. So they were hearing it for the first time, and they were like that must be a weapon, even though is just a bug that. Well, what about the shit they were experiencing that's just some psychosomatic shit. But what remember because then there's a study that some people had legit damage. So that's my question. That's the main thing that I want to figure out if anybody has an answer to this Zych gang. So there is also a New Yorker article. So the Vanity Fair article, basically goes through my original conclusion in detail and explains, you know, psychosomatic is not like, it has this reputation as being somebody who's like, you know, secretly knows that they're wrong in our like pretending, and it's not that it is that you're it's called conversion syndrome, and your stress is being converted into physical symptoms. You are experiencing physical symptoms. It's coming from stress as opposed to a biological cause. And they also talk about how the event happened. How it was I experienced. By one guy who heard the noise, but didn't experience any of the symptoms. Then he heard about someone who experienced the symptoms and that person associated their symptoms with a high pitch noise. And they were like why heard a high pitch noise and so like snowballed from there, and they do a good job. Just kinda using the propublica. A study that I talked about last year that is pretty convincing. And does it does a good job of just kind of giving you a moment by moment breakdown of how the thing all happened. But the thing I want help with is the New Yorker also has this report where they basically just dismissed the idea of it being conversion disorder in like a paragraph there just like this isn't a conversion disorder because they interviewed doctors who looked at these people's brains and said there physical symptoms, and it is definitely real. So those are just two journalistic institutions that I trust the New York. Ker and me. So what what no I, but I do need somebody to kind of explain or has the New Yorker come out like talked about this. I wasn't able to find it on a initial Google search. But have they come up with any further reporting on it or are they just like now, that's what the doctor told us. I am confused. It's gonna take a lot of like, you know, checking reports against one another to see like if there's a way both could be true. So maybe I'll do that. But a detail that this article came out with that, I'm a total sucker for was just that it is basically zeitgeist based where each generation has their own way that conversion disorder presents. So back in the eighteenth century, it was like witchcraft or spiritual possession because that made a lot of sense at the time after World War One in the Germans mustard gas attack. People started having conversion disorder where that were triggered by smells, and now increasingly people all over the world are being sick. And by persistent. Humming. Sounds and so it's like they basically tie to this overall trend of because we have all this sound pollution, and you know, are constantly hearing unpleasant. Sounds and it is sort of the one sensory input that you can't block out and like unless you have dope noise cancelling headphones. But it's the one that like can get to you. Anyway, it can invade your home without you. So like there's this inherent anxiety to it. And they're saying that this is part of a wider trend of noise based conversion disorder or noise triggered converge. My order and then for us for millennials. We have the laurel Yanni type shit to write right thing with the sounds overwhelming us, and yeah, what's going on. Yeah. Just oh -pletely snowflake Jenner. Sonic burnt out snowflakes. Courtney. It's been a pleasure. Having you always where can people find you besides Minnesota? Yeah. I'm back in L A. Okay. Good. If I me on the streets on these streets. Listen to our podcast reality bites. Our sophia. Okay. Is a regular on the site is I guess podcast. And yeah, reality bites and I'm at Courtney Kodak K O C K. So. Podcast hosted by two gang favorite. Yeah. You guys got to check it here. Yeah. We went onto we went on. And I learned so much about Jag. His romance. Vivo Naropa guess caught me off guard. Yeah. We're just like how you doing man. There's a lot of a lot of me saying, I promised myself, I wouldn't cry. And that's before you ask me any questions. Yeah. It was really weird. And we're joined by Jack. You didn't have to talk about sex most thing right right off never had sex. So that was the problem is they're tweet you've been enjoying Courtney. Oh my God. Yeah. Let me find it. This made me laugh adjust detect is that name. Right. She was like, okay. This is the original tweet that she commented on police were called to Texas WalMart after a woman was reportedly drinking wine from Pringles can in writing electric cart in the parking lot. She was like looking why did WalMart or rest their own mascot? Walmart is taken some heat this episode that is awesome. Miles. Yes, we're people fund you you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at miles of gray. And again, also at the punchline this Saturday eleven thirty for gets fest. Couple of weeks, I like one is from Djibouti edgy Buki. It says the Instagram egg is of color, and this is a huge win for representation. Also, another one I like is from Patrick Walsh at the Patrick Walsh. 'cause I was just talking to my friend. Kevin we were talking about MRs Mazel and his tweet about it from Patrick Walsh. It says mrS Mazel your marvellous franchisees laughs, really hard. At one of MRs Mazel, stand up comedy jokes for several minutes. Simply marvelous. The idea. Basil you. Anyway, shout out to Rachel Rosin, Han and Noel, Dr sorts who writes on that show. Yeah. You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore, Brian. And also at the punchline and San Francisco this weekend is going to be blast. Where are you guys going to be Saturday Saturday just think of it as a Saturday Night Live Saturday night actually live because we will be there in the flesh Night Live? We would Andretti. Yeah. With Andrew t. Oh shit. I forgot. All right. A couple tweets I've been enjoying bench. Period. Tweeted glad you're qualified for something at a OC because she was talking about how she had bartended before and could tell that she dealt with old overweight as holes all the time. And she was like I can tell we're getting under his skin. Ben Shapiro tweet. Glad you're qualified for something. And then diesels tweeted, she still not gonna fuck you. Ben. Before he was like, I wanna debate you, right? Not having to do. And then Kibble Smith tweeted here Mia. If Batman is canonical about thirty two than he was born in nineteen eighty six in if his parents were killed leaving a movie theater when he was ten years old. Then there is a very real possibility return space-based that they were seeing Space Jam. Wow. That would be wild. Yes. They wrote it like that. And he just like he couldn't look at any kind of Warner Brothers cartoon right match or wasn't any Michael Jordan. Yeah. I almost said magic, Jordan. There is an art Kelly song in that. Yes. One of the greats. Why would happen with our counts? They'd better not to watch. Funny. You can find us on Twitter at Daly's ice for dailies on Instagram. We have Facebook fan page and a website dailies like dot com. Where post our episodes in our foot over we link off to the information that we talked about today's episode as well as Hong right out on miles. What are we gonna ride out on? Let's go out on the artists the band, FOX walks. I love Fox News. And I love Elizabeth felt good. Anyway, this song's about everything up hearts and just look good good band track. You know, they they start off a little off rhythm. You don't know where it's going. We're the downbeat is. And then it comes in your anyway, that's for all rhythm people. But yes, this is everything apart by FOX. Also, I wanted to just mention another tweet at real dengue. Trump tweeted yesterday morning getting ready to address the farm convention today in Nashville, Tennessee, love our farmers, love, Tennessee. Great combination. See you in a little while and jerk responded he's going to New Orleans today. So, you know. All right. We're gonna ride out on that. We will be back tomorrow because it is daily podcast. We'll talk. If we. France. It we. Disturbed welcome to hysteria. Fifty one a weekly ghost of mysteries conspiracies and the unexplained. We've John Brent and conspiracy boats, you're all idiots. Join the H way because they clarify conspiracies. What better way to dominate your competition than to say, they're trying to control your mind done get and pro but the paranormal it's all about laylines and understand that if I could explain it to you h wake and subscribe on apple podcasts the iheartradio app. All-weather? You listen to podcasts the truth is out there. But you won't find it here, they won't meet sex and make sure to catch our latest episode where we interview documentarian. Jeremy core bell, Germany has never went documentary on tunes now worldwide in this all about Bob Lazar guy that exposed area fifty one real and worked on real honest to goodness, you says do exist. Do we have their technology is the government covering all up? We'll get to the bottom of. At all. Well, Florida on this week's episode. Download now on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Ep. 485 - The Predator and Ozark: Season 2

The Filmcast

1:51:33 hr | 2 years ago

Ep. 485 - The Predator and Ozark: Season 2

"Hello, everyone and welcome to the slash film. Cast official podcast of slash film dot com. I'm David Chen, and with me are two bender hardware and Jeff cannata welcome to the show everyone. You can find more episodes of this podcast. It's lash home cast dot com. You can also Email us at slash forecasts that Email dot com. Today we're going to be discussing watching and then moving on into a review of Shane, Black's newest film, the predator. But before we do that, a couple things going to mention first of all, the summer movie wager happened last week, our follow up and there was I wanted to ask you guys actually before the show, but now mask you live on the air, whether there's anything else you wanted to mention that we didn't get to us we because there was one thing I thought of that I wanted to mention, which is that actually thought Warner Brothers had a pretty amazing summer and I wanted to just give them a shout up because this is the studio that opened crazy, rich Asians, and the Meg on back to back weekends and both of those to be huge hits and also like not not based off an existing franchise films in instead those movies probably created new franchises. Right? So I thought one of us had a had a great summer and wanted to call them out as one of the big success stories of your also. I think they did the none as well, which is a massive success. No, they're just having like a pretty gangbusters last month or two. And I think like my guess not hundred percents year my guesses. The consequences of of their victory will be felt for years to come in terms of what other movies might might spawned from the conjuring universe or crazier Jason sequel or or things like that. So just wanted to mention that the affects your victory will be felt for years. Trust me. The effects of my victory will also be felt for sure. I mean, here's, here's the thing, Jeff. Here's, here's. The thing that I'm ashamed of is that I have only equaled the maximum number of times somebody has won the summer movie wager, which I believe is you right baby at three times. I, I know it's hard to believe that there was a moment in time when Jeff Kanawha was considered good at this game. With this. Considerably fewer participants. Yes, so so I am hoping that next year brings the decisive victory that I need to declare myself the greatest summer movie wager player of all time. And see, I'll see. I'll be looking out for it and and hope everyone. Everyone listening is also looking forward to it coming summer twenty nineteen. All happens. Indeed. Indeed, also a couple of other show. You know, I got so caught up in the pageantry of the occasion last weekend. There was a couple of shoutouts that I forgot to give to people who had participated and won. There was a slack leaderboard as well. People who participated in the slack. The slack foam cast at slack film cast dot com. And the technical winner of that leaderboard was Justin Langer Bachan from Minneapolis, Minnesota. So just Bachan got the best score of all that. But here's, here's the thing. It's not just a technical win day. That's that's an actual win winning works. Okay, technical, here's, here's, here's the thing is that just buck and even though he signed, he signed up for these slack leaderboard he he's not actually active in the slack he signed up. So I wanted to give a shout, but the person in the indie slack who actually still contributes is Pala for nana's. I think she's from Brazil, but policies says is actually the top score in the actual slack. She actually choose chose a movie that she wants everyone to watch which is faces places. So if you're in the. Yeah. And yeah, some good documentaries which is in by one already. I've already I've already, you know, participated in the in the loss for that. Good job. You saved your time there. So anyway, wanted to give a shout out to those folks. And again, thanks to Dennis for making this year's competition possible. Again, you can listen to our conversation about this year summer at the caffeine and also of the summer movie away your dot com to see all the scores. The movie I chose as winner for everyone to watch was minding the gap. We'll probably review that movie coming up in the next few weeks. It's minding the gap. It's on Hulu, check it out. If you want to be ready for our review of the film. So you can always if you're listener Email us at slash on Kesse g Mobilkom we got a few emails slash Mecom. I would say these emails have very, very, very, very, very minor spoilers for searching. So if you like are completely spoiler verse, you know, maybe skip Ford for a couple minutes, but I really don't think it's. Well, anything this Email comes from Justin from Iowa commenting about are searching review. Justin writes in, hey, guys, thanks for the great review of searching. Got me to see the film today. As wondering if any of you guys noticed side posts and stories about potential aliens. There were notes about increased talks of UFO's, NASA, dunking those rumors and then links about NASA set to make a big announcement from the White House. I thought the third act was a bit wacky as well, but I was literally scared. The movie was going to go truly into bananas territory with that being an actual plop point. Just just curious if anyone noticed this weird sites. So searching is kind of RAD. That would have been like. We're like, who? How? What happened to the girl that disappears? He drove off. She was -ducted by a red herring thing, right? Because it's just the spot is planted in your mind as you're watching the movies like, oh, could be could be. This could be so many things. Searching his told completely in a computer screen. And I guess throughout the movie, there's an entire subplot in, I guess, like chirons or like the ticker, the news ticker, right? Or like like in the background of screen, like other new stories about aliens. I did not catch any of this the first time. Oh, man. Did you? Did you see any of it or. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely on my mind. I think that's the key, right? Just this little this little hint of data, like could it be this? It's it's, I think the makings of a mystery, but I'd also love for a searching Cloverfield universe thing. Yeah. So anyway, I did not catch the aliens in searching, but if you haven't seen the film and want to check it out and look for that little Easter egg it is there for you. This Email comes in from Josh from Toledo, Ohio, Josh writes in just listened to the review of searching, and it was compelled to write in. I was disappointed by your dismissal of the unfriendly films, both entries, particularly the sequel, dark web, have everything you're looking for in this computer cinema format. Emberley we're released well before searching yet we're tossing as less ambitious and given no credit for being groundbreaking. We'll see the first friend was given a lot of credit, a lot of people like that movie. And I think he's, I think Joshua from Toledo. Ohio is talking about us giving it not that was credit searching, Lexi crucial attention to acetic detail that makes the style feel so immersive in unfunded, such as variable video, playback quality, loading times, realistic mouse movements, a sound design that takes lag into account digest music at cetera. The attempt to bring in some conventional filmmaking techniques a score and timeless that time lapse ending is understandable, but the main effect is just distracting. As you'll noted, a lot of the acting here is not good enough to sell increasingly ludicrous script. And the story often falls into the classic found footage problem of making the viewer think why is this conversation video right now? All that said, kinda glad most folks seemed to like searching. I hope we get many more filmmakers trying some new things in this promising style. Also, hope you guys give the second friend and film chance and avoid falling into the trap of not taking horror films seriously as art. So Email comes from Joshua from Toledo, Ohio, rebuking us for dismissing the printed films. I have seen on friend at one. I enjoyed that film but also found it to be. Yeah. I mean it's okay for us not to like things. Yeah. Not a rebuke against you liking something. I don't think a single actor and unfunded the I was as good as John show searching I, that's how I feel about that movie. I do think that Josh from Toledo points out some things that did really well. Like I do think that the screen used in unfunded is depicted more realistically than green in searching, but and I hate the mouse movements in searching as well. Were extremely smooth mouse movements where they not to to to smoke. That's how my mouth guys on you. What I would like to see is the next step in this style is abandoned the all or nothing approach. Why not have be a sequence in your movie or a portion of your movie it? It can be both, right? You can have traditional film making techniques and this screen screen life. But what we're seeing, I think right now we're seeing that hybridization like even what was that movie. The one with Kristen Stewart's personal shopper had some really good moments that were literally just focused on a screen. It was just her texting somebody, she, we don't know who that person was. So I think a lot of modern movies are doing that just maybe not in the same way. Yeah. It's interesting to see how how so many different properties have figured out how to convey text messaging in films. You know, because there's a variety of techniques that have been used and text messaging has become such a integral part of the human experience that crazy rich Asians, like montage sequences. Incredible. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And that's a brand new way of visualizing it. And I think it's fun to see how different people use it, and I don't. I don't have a problem with just focusing on a screen and living on a screen for you know, five, ten minutes of your movie. I think that that could totally work. I gotta disagree there. I think per dingus point, a lot of movies have demonstrated. They can seamlessly blend or depict, actually let me let me think. Let me think if I because I'm gonna talk about American vandal today on the Bod cast, and I think that movie actually does a great like it doesn't show, you know, actually it does. There's many sequences where it's just like a screen up. So no, I completely just reverse myself. I think you're right. It does work. The problem is the throw is you can't persuasive well. Yeah, the the problem is you can't lock yourself into screen for like ten minutes without feeling inorganic storytelling about being start. It's one thing if you like, see if you text pop up on a screen and like see text back and forth for like thirty seven. Ends, you know, or sixty seconds. It's another thing to spend ten minutes locked on a screen. I just don't think you could have conventional film and then like spend ten minutes, computer screen. And then like we're back in the real world just doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like it would be. But I I mentioned this in our view of searching. One of the things I like most about that movie is that at least for the first two thirds of it, it really felt like the reason we were in the screen is because that's where this person would be to do. The things he was doing and it makes the most sense to engage with your computer. If you're trying to figure out where someone is, that's what we all would do. We would sit on the internet and we would try to figure out some things and there's plenty of movies where there's a sequence like think of it as a set piece like it's a, it's a searching set-piece where you get on the computer and you try to figure things out. I think that could work as as I could be wrong. But I think that I wouldn't throw it out just a priori enough. I think I think you're right though that the problem that a lot of movies have found footage, movies, movies, like searching infrinted is at some point you start questioning like, why are we still on this computer like this action? The story could be better told not on the computer screen, right? Like that's what happens usually at point searching for me. Yeah. So, okay, one last Email I wanna read before, move onto what we've been watching this. We, first of all I wanna give shadow to Eric ngelo from Montreal Quebec who wrote us about his indie game company double stallion and about this new game that he's releasing and how he's listened to the podcast to help him like do the new game and. Not like we provided them game vice or anything, but we kept him company, you know, for many crucial aspects of his life. And so you just want to give to Eric. And also I think he gives some steam codes as well. So appreciate that. Eric, and always glad if the podcast can be part of your life one or to right in re this Email from a person named speedy Gonzales in Chicago, not his real name. Who writes this custody Jima com. First of all, he wants to rebuke Jeff, Kenna's, unsullied lifestyle. He writes here about watching trailers quote, let's just say one of those people who in eager anticipation of season seven game of thrones actively sought out and read through the entire season plot details leaked online, which turned out to be the actual plot details. My feeling is that the plot details are not really the crux of my joint of the show as much as the actual execution of the details, how it's all rendered through acting cinematography music action, and so on. We all know that for the most part, the guys triumph in the end, the guy gets the girl. The ring gets melted, the monster, get space via Warlock, etc. For me embracing by brazing spoilers. I get to not only enjoy the period of previewing anticipation by imagining how will play out. I then also get enjoy seeing how it does. And I think with the vessel higher overall level of enjoyment, your perspective may be affected by watching a lot more movies, so novelty when it comes is desperately needed breath of fresh air. And in this age of sequels prequels reboots rehashed awakenings in previous and properties. So it is for all of us. I think that life is too short to so vigilantly withhold from oneself that which one is interested in, especially on relatively inconsequential. Things like movie plots who knows how much time is left, which brings me to the point of listening to podcasts at one hundred forty percents beat. Episode which touched on the subject. I'll be more about watching TV shows and this way you'll express extreme disgust, the practice indefens-. All I have to say is that podcast like the session cast or like a really great spicy potato chip, the just want to eat up as fast and as much as you can because this kind of potato chip doesn't make you fat or give your heart attack. It's just wonderful from start to finish and in a world of so much noise ugliness being able to indulge in something so positive is a great thing. Not to the point where I watch movies or TV shows that accelerated speed, possibly because my TV does not have this feature, but I do want you to this way. This may be travesty, evaluative quantity, over quality, but are argue it is a matter of quantity and quality. Why not have cake and eat it too, or in this case, forty percent, more bags of chips. I will say a lot of these are broadcast faster on network TV channels, and it's not great. It's really kills movies, you know, by this guy's own analogy. Voice to on his Petar. He's his own analogy is why not have forty percent more potato chips. There are lots of very good reasons why you shouldn't have forty percent more potato chips. Okay. We'll get to the first point. Let's let's not even get to the first point because I think we've already argued about like different stories to different folks. If you don't wanna watch trailers, you know. This guy, I was gonna say, you do you do you want to swim as you do? But then he made the second point. Very clear with them and say, you are a monster. You're listening to my voice at forty percent, faster, speed. Let me be clear. You wore moan. All right. So I wanted you to be very sure that very clearly. You're a monster needed, stop it. Stop it, fewer potato chips here, potato hips. Well, you remember the last time that remain potato chips, right? The the no fat potato chips. What did we have to look out for Dana leakage. I like that was perfectly time together. Listening to podcast who quickly is the anal leakage of participators. Yeah, your ears a leak out. Just looking out for you, man. I don't want to Amos to leak. Speaking of looking out for you, hey, we want to look out for your sleep as well. You guys have heard me talk about casper mattresses before because a week we got casper mattresses. We we're so pleased to have gotten casper mattresses because it is the easiest way to improve your sleep. Casper is a brand that makes expertly designed products to help you get your best rest and nothing is more important to me these days than getting a good night's sleep. Casper products are there. They mimic the human curve. They provide support and comfort for all kinds of bodies. And chances are you need to upgrade your mattress. Why not do it the easiest way possible casper offers variety of mattresses, the wave and the essential as well as their their original brand. 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There's over twenty thousand reviews with an average of four point, eight stars across casper, Amazon and Google. This is internet's favorite mattress. Don't take my word for it. Check it out. Give yourself one hundred nights to sleep on it before you make your decision. A third of your life is spent sleeping, so you should be comfortable, and, hey, we'll give you fifty dollars toward celek. Mattresses by visiting casper dot com. Slash film cast and using film cast at checkout. That's casper dot com. Slash film cast and promo code film cast for fifty dollars towards select mattresses terms and conditions apply. Give it a shot. Let's move on ONA tell you story this week. What have the me? Gentleman? I woke up on Thursday morning at your first mistake. Yup. I know really, you know, really was on a joke and I was feeling really off just like something something is not quite right, like my legs hurt, you know, I felt dizzy moving around just like some somebody's not. But I'd like to meetings day. I had like two important meetings I'd to get to at around like eleven thirty time period at work. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to work. Do the meetings, you know, and then call a sick day for the rest of the day. Good. To work, get to work at like eight o'clock and it's like ten forty, five rolls around. And I say to my co worker like, hey, I'm probably gonna take the rest of the day off these meetings just letting you know. And then. Like ten minutes later, I said to my co worker, you know what? I'm not gonna make it. I can make just took the Uber home later that evening. I had a fever over one hundred degrees, so I got sick yet again, yet again, gentlemen, I, I don't know what is happening to me. I think I'd be something and you're relaxing, work style, dislike. Relaxing time. Relax. That's right. I, you know, here's another thing to not enough stuff to do. I think that's also. Between the between the corporate job in the podcasting. I just it's just not enough things I have going on in my life. So anyway, I've been basically bedridden I've left the house like twice to get groceries. Actually, one of the times I left was to go see the stupid movie the predator that we're gonna review today, but but anyway, being slightly feverish out of your mind is probably get way to see. Yeah. So I was like completely incapacitated for several days. And fortunately I was to to. In bad shape in such Russia. I couldn't go into work, but I have a projector that projects onto my ceiling, and I was just this occasion for just see occasion of when I literally can't move. Literally my entire bodies in excruciating pain, and I can only face in one direction but still want to enjoy the latest titles, video demand. And so I been used the entire season five of horsemen we're gonna talk about that in a separate bonus episode, but for now, just know that it's very good and make some interesting points about the present day Hollywood and how it handles, let's say bad men. So really wanting curse people to watch that show which show I still love. Lot of a lot of people questioned like, oh, I watch the first few episodes and it wasn't a fan. I continue watching. Definitely go Jack horsemen worth the time. But the thing I want to talk about today is American vandal season to have any of you seen even mercan vandals into not yet Jeff, have you know I have not haven't even seen season one. You recommend both recommended very highly chests of it. Okay. So I will tell you my journey with season one, a recap it really quickly which is at I sort of watching merkin vandal. I was like, this is the dumbest thing of ever seen. This should be five minute funnier divo- instead of a four hour Netflix series, and I stopped watching it. Everyone. Everyone like Indra kept on me. He's like, you gotta go back, check this out because I thought when I watched it, I I have. I've gotten everything I need to get from this show in five minutes, all ready know what it's trying to do. And I was very, very wrong. The show is is excellent. The first season won a Peabody award, so is very well regarded and just the word. Yeah, the big drawings. That's right. The premise of the show is. I do. Yes. So the I neglected to mention it, but I am stuck in that period that you just referenced of having watched the first five minutes and shutting off. And then I, I'm in a longer much longer the longer valley state of hearing everyone say, you have to watch. You have to watch it and and for you that that period was short. And for me, it's been much longer. Really, but I'm, I'm going to do it. I'm gonna watch. You totally should. So the first season is about these highschoolers who. The happen upon this crime of a student who has been accused of drawing Dicks on dozens of faculty cars, right? And has been expelled as a result of that and the they're trying to get to the bottom of who drew the Dick's. So that's kind of like a mean who drew the Dick's the inciting incident of the second season is basically a whole separate case, and they cover an event called the Brown out, which is a bunch of students at a school in the Seattle area being poisoned with laxatives and crapping all over the place. Highbrow humor's we're talking, okay, here's the thing. Here's the thing. This is what I want to say about the show, Jeff is the initial crime. That starts off both of the seasons is extremely dumb and gross and stupid. How do we follow up Dix. You didn't. You didn't finish you finish that sentence. I was gonna say the initial crime that that starts both seasons is extremely dumb and selling stupid semicolon. Everything else in the show is deadly serious. It's more like if what if that silly crime was treated like the plot of cereal right. So I'm merely making fun because I think I think the is funny to describe a Peabody award winning show. It's like, okay, we did Dick's. We wanna Peabody one. Could we possibly do next SCO. Oh. Shit, but the only use the the crap as a jumping off point, right? They only use it as a way to explore all these other things that they're interested specifically this season. They talk about things like code switching. They talk about things like cyber bullying. This is aside from searching American vandal has probably the smartest and most accurate depiction of social media usage. I've seen onscreen this year and the so many issues that are addressed in a smart way on top of that, they're completely nailing the style of podcast like cereal making a murder and the jinx this season in particular is heavily inspired by Earl Morris, and the reenactments are spot on and they have what appears to be dozens of unknown actor. There's whom these show runners every episode directed by Tonia center. They they have dozens of unknown actors who they are getting naturalistic performances out of despite how ridiculously silly this premises. Like there's there is the temptation to mug for the camera or like play it not super seriously, must have been enormous, and they were able to resist that throughout the course of the entire season. So I think American vandal season two is awesome. It's a huge shipment, and I'll just say this one last thing about it, which is like they don't want to describe it as a mockumentary because if you compare like Christopher guest to American vandal season two or season, one like Christopher guest movies have a very familiar cadence to them. Right. It's all like. Every interview with a wacky character feels like, you know up setups at a punchline, and they really wanted to avoid that. They didn't want it to be like a monkey mentally. So if you watch the show, the most compelling thing is the mystery like you actually want to know who did these crimes and because it's not real, the bar for making an interesting is even higher if it was for real crime. You can forgive like rough storytelling here and there. Oh, maybe they didn't. Maybe they couldn't get access to the library of blah, blah, blah because it's like five thousand miles away. You know, like the like because it's a real crime. I feel like I'm more forgiving of documentary. If the storytelling is not super tight. In this case, they don't have that excuse the, they're making up everything. So if the story is not great, then it's on them, and I thought they did a phenomenal job. So that's my argument to the show Jeff Kenna I hope you know, one thing when it really enjoyed about season one too, is it's the depiction of high school life. That's what it really is. That idea where, yeah, you're in this weird isolated community. Right, and a little thing, like who the Dixon who got probably expelled which out side of this insular community doesn't really mean much, but you know, to this community, it's like it's the biggest news. The most interesting thing that's ever happened. They're not just. All these consequences for everyone around them. You know, like one person is expelled and their family has their hearts broken and their relationships that they're in our affected. You see how like one action affects the community. So even though it is about Dick's and shit, this is one of the most brilliant shows on television and metaphor for life. Yeah, I think it's worth checking out. So that's American vandal season two. I also wanted to give a shoutout to Dunkirk sought and seventy millimeter this week at the Cinerama and it was a fantastic experience. I, in my opinion, I still prefer the I'm experience because there's just more of the image that you can see my max. But yeah, Cinerama having their seventy millimeter film festival, actually middle listener, Josh from Seattle. Washington said, hi, to me in the lobby said, he's a fan of the podcast, so wanted to give a shot at the Josh. But yeah, Dunkirk straps, rations on Dunkirk. The editing it is a massive cinematic achievement the the way that he was able to like gather all these extras together and create these stunning Tableau, there's all time greatest shots right in this movie of you see, like, you know, a group of ten soldiers walking towards boat in a distance and it's like the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. And also the frame represents 'isolation in the midst of this horrifying and punishing environment. The way this movie shot is gorgeous and compelling, and it continues to remain this achievement that that rattles me whenever I watch it. So it's amazing. And if you have a check on big screen, highly recommend. Yeah, the editing still annoys me. I know this movie won an Oscar for best editing, but like cuts between these stories. Yeah. In a way that just completely rips me out of. Of like, I'm thinking about the editing instead of like being caught up in the emotion of these moments. And so, yeah, still his language, right? It's a very specific Nolan esque way of editing. And I think just watching movies I saw, I forget if I talked about this by dark Knight and I max news, well, how was in that was that was an experience, right? First of all, I don't think I ever got to see it on maximum big screen. You know, originally and just having that experience is great. But also what's interesting to me is like, I can understand that movie better now because we've seen inner interstellar, and we see in Dunkirk. And I do think like degree like Nolan has been fashioning his own cinematic language and it's, you know, it's not always easy to parse. It's kinda love it or hate it. But I think what he's doing editing is really interesting. So like this is the guy that's basically trying to change. You know, things that have been fundamental to cinema since since like the since I. On film. You know, the language of editing itself is changing or at least he staging it. It's strange. It's weird, feels different watching the dark Knight. Now, it's funny how much easier it is to understand in parse like what's actually happening also still worth doing when ever they do any of these big revivals get out there. Go check it out because these are rare moments watching these movies at home. We'll never recapture that. It's definitely a bold choice. What is happening in terms of the editing. So I'm not gonna say it was due to incompetence, you know, it's it was clearly like they're trying to get something where they're cutting between, like, okay, here's here's like one dude, diet like drowning in one story. Now we're gonna cut to these dudes drowning in this story. Like, don't you see the parallels? That's what's happening with the editing. And I just I'm just not a fan of the ending of the movie. And finally, just I cannot help think that that opening sequence where they show you the the text on the screen right. So the text screen, it says, the mole one week, then it says you, you could be a little more. This this e one day the air one hour, right? And so it showing you three different locations and then it saying the amount of time that is going to be depicted in this film and. I just feel like is so it is so frustrating. I know what it's talking about, but even watching it again, I'm like, I, it's on screen for literally like five seconds, right? So if you look down to get your popcorn, you've missed it. And then the fact that he calls one of the locations of the mole when in at least American English, that term has many definitions. It just it's almost unforgivable almost unforgivable, but not quite it's it's a very minor nitpicking. What is otherwise one of the greatest achievements of twenty century cinema. So anyway, but will say it just kind of. Point, it just comes opening like text is kind of like Christopher Nolan's martians the beauty zone drum like he doesn't give a crap about the audience, comprehend what he's doing. He's going to do something, you know. So Christopher Nolan putting on sunglasses and saying deal with it basically. And that's pretty much I just got a Dunkirk on for k. Blu Ray by the way. And I, I don't even know how to watch it. Honestly, like, do I do? I just put in watching my TV. It's not the same. Like what's the point. Mainly pro sound that it got up for the sound. Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. So that's what I've been watching this week, defend your heart order. He watches. Couple of things mainly though I want to talk about forever. The new show on Amazon cookery by Ellen, the Ang who's had really good run lately between like master of none. He's also a writer on the good place. This is a new show that has a really interesting premise, and I guess you know, they've been trying really hard to keep what this shows actually about a little bit of a secret so l. say, you know, it's a relationship, comedy, starring Fred arm sin in my Rodolphe as a married couple, they've been married for a long time and it's starting to feel like, you know what they're going through is just like living life in a repeated way, right? They're just kinda. They've been going out to long. It's dealing with all those relationship issues can't really say much more about the show is kind of interesting though, like I'm three episodes in and it's like only now do we get the premise basically like it's it's kind of ballsy and kind of risky in that way it it's already out. It's pro right now. Yeah, I think it premiered on Friday. It's, I love these actors and my Rudolph in particular like, who is fantastic and I wanna see her and more things. She's just she's one of the funniest people alive right now in I like him. He's not somebody. I think that can never play a normal person. I think at this point, just everything this is show that tries to place him as like a mild mannered dentist, and I just can never believe him in that. So that's when like knock against it, but you know, so far, it's a funny show. I think it's really incisive about relationships and kind of how long term relationships work and great to see my Rudolph in something starring something, honestly. So, yeah, check it out. Definitely worth a watch. Stick with it at least three episodes really understand what's happening. Hey, Deborah, how long have you been married? Just curiosity. It's been five years. We actually just celebrated our anniversary or fifty or. Nursery, and we saw Mandy for that. So congratulations gradually. Yeah, just just wondering because the couple in forever has been married for, I think, fourteen years, my wife and I, we've been together for basically fifteen years. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. So, yeah. So like this, probably a lot in the show that might resonated, you know? Yeah. But anyway, the show is forever and it is available now on Amazon prime and you check it out if you have a chance and also by the way out to Jack Ryan, which I talked about a couple of weeks ago before it premiered, but it is fantastic. Go watch that too. Awesome. Jack, also prime note that I work for him as prime and cannot come in on any of those shows. Yeah, I can say anything. Dave, just not respond. I feel okay telling you to watch those shows though, because you check them up, but. Anyway. Glad. Here's what I'll say. I'm really glad you're enjoying them to Indra. That's just cannot you want anything. I have. I have finished Ozark season two, and I think you and I are going to talk about at the end of this episode, right? Yes. So we'll do a little after dark about season two. We can spoil the entire thing. So stay tuned for that. I will just say that it is excellent. And if you like season one, you're going to love season to like me, but what I what I also can talk about is our sponsor Sonos beam, hey, you know that we love Sonos, you probably heard us talk about Sonos, we think Sonos is the top of the line home theater audio. And if you've heard of talk about it for ages, all of us agree audio is a huge part of your viewing experience. Whenever you're at home, everybody thinks about getting that big screen getting that four k. getting HD are. Yes, yes, but audio audio is transformed, Tori experience. It is just. Is important and the Sonos beam, the new Sonos beam is a smart compact. Sound bar for your TV doesn't take a lot of space and but it puts out a huge amount of wonderful, wonderful sound. It's incredible, and the coolest thing. So I've been a fan of someone's for a long time. I've had Sonos for a long time. One of the huge role it's I think last year was the integration of your voices. Got Amazon l. e. x. a built right into it. It's awesome. So you can now you can control it with your voice. You can use air play to enjoy sound on your being while you're watching video on your iphone or ipad. So it's it literally can give you like a credible sound while you're watching a phone or your ipad. It's awesome. It is awesome. Have you guys been using? Yeah, totally big fan. My wife's been using it during workouts to like blast workout music. It's also so easy to set up. It's just a single chord syncs with your existing remote. It's the perfect size. It doesn't. It's not intrusive. It's the top line. It's the best of the best so order. You're being now at Sonos dot com for just three ninety nine before move onto our review of the predator. We gotta think all the people who donated to the podcast this week. Thanks to Linda m- we thanks to Joshua Davis from Seattle, Washington, thanks to Belinda pro and Jenny nam for your contributions. All the money. You donate goes to help us to deferring the causing movies and putting on the show for you. You can always donate by going to pay Pell dot ME slash film, casts pay pal, dot ME, slash film cast or go to slash dot com. Slash on cast hab, used the papal links on the side of the page. Age. We really appreciate everyone who donates, of course, do not donate if it in any way causes you problems or affects your livelihood in any way. But if you are able to donate, really appreciate it. Thanks to our donors this week. You're awesome. Let's get to our view of the. Acquisitions. Look up and a catch with those out of the sky. I should. Tell me about the mission. Did you see anything unusual. It's above our big. Cookie. Now. Look, I get someone down in Mexico. Nobody wants witness. We need to know if you can you man pose a threat. We're rangers. That was from the trailer for the predator. The new film directed by Shane black. I'm gonna read the plots from when a young boy accidentally triggers the universe's most lethal hunters returned to earth only a rag tag crew of ex-soldiers. Disgruntled science teacher can prevent the end of the human race. So I think it's fair to say that we're all fans shame black here, right? I mean, yeah, we've appreciated his films kiss, kiss bang, bang, ironman threes. I mask three. The nice guys and talking about Shane, Black's filmography here. Obviously, there were unfortunate circumstances surrounding the filming of the predator that you know shame has apologized for Livia month, put us out there and should be praised for what she did in order to bring attention to this important issue. So let's just makes the aftermath that was also. Super annoying because people weren't really supporting her in that, but slowly slowly the support came in. Yeah, so shame, black did about thing. Took responsibility. Olympia months should be praised for taking a stand against movie students hiring sex offenders in their movies, which it's unfortunate that that needs to even be done, but we are grateful to her for doing that. This movie kind of is released under this cloud of attention of issue. That's not great. Not a great look for the movie, especially given the movie itself is called the predator, but. Given all that looking at the film and looking at Shane blacks filmography. Can we say that this is a film that was worthy of his talents, Jeff? Kanawha? What do you think. No, no. What even is this movie? What? What is this movie? It doesn't what specifically, what is Thomas Jane doing in this movie? Just just wants his kids, man. That's a that's villain reference anyway. Yeah, yeah, it's it does have a very good cast, right? You know, you got Keegan. Michael key in there. You got Travolta roads. You got all these awesome actors which is exactly what you want for a predator movie. By the way you wanna rag tag group of people you actually care about and actually would like watching fighting aliens and stuff. The thing the thing about predator right is the eighty seven. Predator is the idea. Is these guys the most bad ass of the bad asses, right? They got time to bleed. They're they're. They are the supreme bad asses of all time and they encounter something that's more bad ass than them. Right. Simple. They're in very simple premise. They are. What if you took the guys who can handle anything and find something that they can't handle that? Right. That's very simple premise. What does the even the premise of this movie? It's it is so so convoluted and weird and. I mean, I loved the fact that Shane black put a little kid adult relationship into ironman three. I didn't think I thought that kind of came out of nowhere and it really worked. It was even those thing he does again and again that thing for him, but it works in that in that movie. And you have a really wonderful relationship because rubbed junior is magic, and it really humanizes him in and it's a, it's a strange take, but it totally works this time, Jacob Tremblay who's clearly an excellent young actor. It is shoehorned. It's weird. The whole movie feels like this callback to the eighties in all the worst ways like it, it. More to than predator. I guess it fetish sizes, killing and murder in a way that sorta has fallen out of fashion, like killing his super cool and and funny, you know, it's funny to murder people, and I feel like that's this anachronistic thing that maybe worked in the eighties when you had source Nager Stallone racking up body counts and movies, but it just. I think we're in a different time and it just plays. Oddly, when people make jokes about shooting someone dead for no reason. The humor all feels very, very strange. The the logic of the predators is odd. I want to. We should probably get spoiler as soon as we can because there's a lot to talk about specific. This movie is straight up bad. It is a not a good movie vendor hardware take us through it. I will say I really liked the first half of this movie until it starts to devolve into a mess. And I think you can really tell know, heard the stories about recruits in the studio, like kind of wanting to change things up. This movie feels like something the studio young hacked up to make it more consumable or something. I think they're traces of good ideas, especially in terms of how it handles some of the predators. There's some really cool myth building here, and you know, I don't know if it was shame, black second guessing himself or the studio, not really wanting to go with that full vision. I don't know what it is. But yeah, the second half of this movie is a complete mess, feels kind of lazy. Really. This is a movie where you want all the dams that pieces and there really aren't there. And then it gets the point where things are like the editing field so bad like we talk about, you know, dunker. Stop editing, but at least I feel like every cut in that movie is purposeful. You know why it's there. Whereas this one people change locations in reasons. You know, like just a lot of things, people get new weapons. All of a sudden. No, exactly what you're talking about. It becomes like Saturday morning, cartoon in a way, really reminds me like GI Joe. Like when I used to watch a kid and that just feels like bad think. So this is certainly shame blacks. Worst directed movie and shame because there's a lot of potential here. I love the cast actually think Olivia. Munn is doing fantastic work here too. Yeah, typically feel like when they cast Ereli attractive woman in a scientist role, they play it for laughs and they really like they don't really give character much to do. Whereas here she is kind of she's the MVP. This movie. Yeah, alongside sterling k. Brown. Who's just like awesome in everything I didn't really expect him to. I thought he was going to be like part of this team, but it's a little different. He's somebody who knows exactly what movies, and he's just really gets that tone down. Trevan care. Gan makes no damn sense. Doesn't make any sense because it clearly feels like, oh, you've rewrote like two characters into this one or something, but be beyond that. Like I love the group. I love the guys. I love Thomas Jane. What he's doing. Yeah. Well, it's like first of all, I like Thomas Jane in general all watch anything. He does, but I, you know, they try to build up this relationship with him and KiKi, Michael Keyes character. I think there's a really poignant shot towards the end with them that really well done. It's just there's so much chopped up in terms of with this movie was maybe at one point that it doesn't feel like you know, there's much connective tissue there. I could just watch the movie of these guys digging around, and I think that would be more interesting than trying to shoehorn in. You know, a big weird predator plot that the studio wanted. So here are the three crimes of the predator that I will outline, and then we can dive into the spoilers overall. I agree of Indra I think you know the first half this movie. I'm so okay. I heard the movie was a catastrophe, but I'm watching it and it's at least not boring. It's it's not completely horrible. But then you know, the third third act really goes off the rails. I still think it's completely fine. I don't think it's like there's there's other movies, like, let's say, fantastic, four or Justice league that I think clearly clearly the studio, tampering in, in my opinion, was far worse on those films with this movie. That is my opinion. You might have a different opinion, but like from my perception, I watch fantastic, four. I'm like that there's so much as clearly been changed about this film. Yeah, and that's there's so much as the predator as well, let's be clear, but I just think it's like slightly less obvious, but here here the crimes number one, one of the things that made the first predator. Great. In addition to John McCain, awesome. Directing is Arnold Schwarzenegger. That was one of his defining roles, right? And that movie has etched its way into popular culture with lines, like get to the chopper and so on. And you need some like you want someone, hyper, charismatic, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey, Dave. Who do I have for you? Boyd Holbrook. Here's the thing. I actually like Boyd Holbrook, but like the internet seems to enjoy taking a huge shit on that guy all the time. I don't know why, but I'm a fan. I'm a fan, but even me being a fan of Boyd Holbrook. I do not think he equals the Christmas Arnold Schwarzenegger in predator one, you know. Yeah. And that is. That's a problem for this movie in my opinion, like I just don't. You don't have one of those like indelible performances and presences. That's going to anchor this film. And I really wish the rock would take roles that would like, you know, kind of dirty up his clean image a little right. The earliest thing he's done is the fast and furious movies, and even then he became a good guy at number when he doom though, you know, yeah, this this, I agree like this would have been a better. I would rather see the rock in this than in skyscraper. But yeah, so that's one of the issues of this movie. Another issue with this movie is that there is. Shame, black this great job at commenting on and deconstructing John rose in which he's making films. And there is line towards beginning of how, oh, these when I when I watch predator when I was a kid, I was like, oh my gosh, this thing the creature of this thing, STAN Winston, this thing looks terrifying. I'm scared of thing. Right? I can. It's it's plausible to me how this can kill all these extremely trained military men. And I find this this creature scary and the fact that it's called the predator makes complete sense to me. It's only when I got older and started thinking through the implications of what was happening that I came to the conclusion that the characters in this film itself came to, which is like this thing is not really should not really be called a predator predator kills because it has to this guy is killing for sport. He's like, this is like one of those people like a like a tech bro or a stock market dude that goes to Africa to shoot, you know, rhinoceros I in reserve or something like that. You know, like. This movie is so proud of itself that it made that came to that conclusion. It will not get off that it is like, okay, we get it. Yeah. It. I found it to be cloying and grading. Gently was was making those kinds of observations that we we, we should have made more of. I wish it had been like a complete deconstruction of the form instead of just like, here's a few nods towards it. So my my issue is and certainly if you look at what this movie was supposed to be screened rant dot com has done a great deconstruction of all the stuff that was taken out. The movie was originally supposed to be much more bunkers insane than ended up being. And I'm disappointed that that vision never reached the big screen hashtag released the shame black cut. But Finally, I just think this movie's action is bad. A lot of it is shot at night so you can't tell what's happening. Some of CG is terrible. I think when you watch it at home, it will look like actively terrible CG like it will look like. You can't believe this was in a major studio release. This movie has this level visual fix my guess. This is a lot of those because time, my guess is because they did a lot of reshoot restructure the entire film, a ton of stuff in the trailers that never made it into the final. And so I think they just they were up against the wall and they had to. Do releases movie without policy. CG extended should have been as a result. There is not a single memorable action sequence in this film in my opinion. So. Those are my issues of this movie. I don't think it's very good. I don't think it should go see an with eater. I don't think it should pay to see it at all. I think in this comes on HBO or Showtime, Netflix or Amazon prime catch then by the way, that is the way I feel like I grew up watching like this, so that feels appropriate. Although I would really love to see the original predator. All right. Let's get spoiler for the predator starting right now. The sheet low, but you find because coach they're not gonna. See this come. You're really looking have been positive over. It works. You don't work, was attacking him dying daily. Won't to be. All right, Jeff, seen devil on problems this movie. Yeah, yeah, I got a lot of problems with. I don't even know where to start. I'm going to start with Thomas Jane who evidently has trips because threats is still hilarious thing that we can. The only as far as I can tell. The only reason that Thomas Jane has Therese in this movie is to get Libya Monday, eat my pussy. That's, that's the only thing that literally it's completely dropped his his disorder. Yes, it is is completely dropped the second half, he is not have threats at all. So I feel like. Oversight, Joe plot point, there is no moment. There's no reason to have it other than that one hacky joke sequence to get him on to say that phrase and it felt gross. This movie commits to two crimes when it comes to the differently. Abled Jeff. One is Tom Jane has only for less and the other is being apparently gives you superpowers. We bought. Actual manifestation of autism. It's like he's just smart, and that's they just tell the audience. He has autism over and over again. It's it's really kind of insulting. It's very bad. They show it in the first scene, like I will say to the movies, credit. Oh, you mean the first seen win. The fire alarm goes off and he likes his freaking out because it's too loud, but then later on in the film when this gunfire everywhere and people are dying, he's completely fine. So it's still fine with him. Also he's straight up murder. Someone that little. We watch him murder at person for throwing the rocket him. I guess. It's he doesn't do it. He doesn't do. It does certainly does not respond to it in a in a good way, I guess. Yeah. Okay. A number of other thing. I mean, the list is long and. I mean, this movie is okay. You you're saying sterling k. Brown character made no sense, right. So tell me why he makes no sense. He. Where to start, he's a cartoon. He's a two dimensional cartoon of person. I loved his performance ever. Like he's chewing it. Chewing the scenery. Well, doing things. Yes. In the movie. Each use, literally choose the senior shoes and his and his scenery. He makes comments about this mystery as if he knows all this stuff, his whole organization doesn't make any sense they've built this like every every decision that that organization has made is the stupidest decision that could possibly have made at any given time. Like we're going to display all of the weapons in in a display case for some reason, what would you do with alien technology, Jeff, just put in a freezer, like putting scoring room, no different Joan. You are building a top secret underground bunker, right, right. You're building. It's like five hundred feet underground. You also separately have top secret alien technology. What are you going to hide that light under a bushel? No, you gotta you display for all the visitors that are coming into your top secret underground bunker government money, especially this is especially good idea because in the event that a predator comes to life and is able to that you have displayed on your table breathing and that you have made no preparations to restrain. Yeah, right. Well, he was restrained by like cloth straps or something like it gets them gets a metal guys like that thing down electors restrained more than that. Predator was literally literally any any time in a movie that anyone is breathing on a table dated. Waking up. That's right. Especially if you have this predator who you, you have a done, a piss poor, a shit job of restraining on this table. If predator to come to life, you definitely want them to be able to re appropriate all their gear and wreak havoc on everyone. Right. So why not table right next to them? Yeah, that's what we call Chekhov's predator. You know, actually, the thing that pissed me off the most of this whole movie and it's a stupid little thing, but it bugs the shit out of me. The the original predator the big reveal was when the mask came off. He had that crazy mouth face thing, right? This movie, it just lets that be all the time. And the thing that pisses me off so much is we're constantly getting the predator I view of his digital readout and all the frigging Terminator style predator stuff from the first movie. And yet he's never wearing the mask. It's just just is now we're getting be remote view through them. Ask at certain points. We are also not wearing the mask and he's walking around. We see him do stuff that the mask would do, but he's not wearing the mask. I'm like that angered m