1 Episode results for "cliven cliven bundy"
"From the center for investigative reporting m._p._r. X. is real. I'm l. Let this month to to mass. Shootings happened within hours of each other over. Thirty people were killed. Afterwards people asked familiar question. How could this be happening reading today. We're going to be tackling that question by looking at how a group of people with extremist ideas embraced violence to get their way and how their beliefs leafs spread and in some ways become more dangerous. The story takes us back to january two thousand sixteen. The sun is shining in the sky but the air is frigid in a small oregon town man in a cowboy hat and a thick winter flannel climbs up a snow bank at the edge of a grocery store parking lot and calls out to a crowd of his supporters. I'm asking you to follow me and go to the merrier national wildlife refuge and we're gonna make a harsh stand. That's ammon bundy. He's short speech on that snow. Bank kicked off a six week armed standoff with the federal government in a remote bird sanctuary in the middle of winter. It's crucial social. They you understand what's going on here. What this issue is truly about. It's about our federal government taking over private property. This is bundy's second armed standoff. He and his supporters believed that the federal government has no right to public lands and should turn them over to the states amens father cliven cliven bundy had for decades us public land to graze his cattle but refused to pay the federal fees in twenty fourteen. The federal government came to collect elect and that ended in the first armed standoff with the bundys at their ranch in bunkerville nevada. We take you back to the standoffs because they lead directly to our story today. How anti-government groups and individuals surface to support the bundy's didn't go away when the bundy's did instead over over the past few years people within those groups have become more emboldened and willing to use violence to get what they want today. We're teaming up with the podcast has bundy ville produced by oregon public broadcasting and long rates to see how the violence that started with the bundys has spread bonnevilles hosts. Lisa tilly joins me now now. Elliot hey has gone so before we get to season to remind us what happened to the bundy's after those two standoffs came to an end both of those ended ended with these trials that a lot of critics would say the government botched so with the nevada case. They ended in a mistrial in oregon. They ended in acquittals for for the bundy brothers and their co-defendants so what's motivating the bundy's. How did they get to the point of the first standoff. I think to understand the bundy family family you kind of have to understand that where they come from. There's a real kind of anti-government sentiment that a lot of people share you can look to <hes> when the mormons came west in eighteen hundreds <hes> part of the reason they did that was to get away from the federal government but then the government came to them and sort of started this idea that a lot of mormons in that area feel that they were persecuted for their religion by the government so all of this kind of led to cliven and bundy's standing off with the government in two thousand fourteen saliha how those religious beliefs cut of drive this this confrontation with the federal government the bundy's hold a pretty specific set of fringe religious beliefs that a lot of mormons would not agree with and in fact the mainstream mormon church in salt lake city wouldn't agree with so so my reporting led me to this thing called the white horse prophecy which is basically this kind of urban legend among mormon communities that that that some people believe joseph smith the prophet of the church told <hes> early mormons that they would settle in the rocky mountains and that one day the u._s. Constitution solution would hang by a thread and it would be up to the mormon people to save that from ruin now. The church in salt lake doesn't think this is actually a real prophecy but the the bundy family does and a lot of other people in these kind of anti-government communities also believe that they believe that their fight against the government is them actually saving being the constitution from ruin so where do the bundy's motivations and beliefs overlap with other groups that you've been tracking sense. If you look at the the anti-government anti-government movement you might remember things like ruby ridge and the waco standoff with the branch davidians and both of those events ended and people dying hang at the hands of the government a lot of those were kids so the anti-government groups use those instances as recruitment tools times when they can say look look the federal government will come after people who live differently or do things their own way and they kind of turn a blind eye to the laws that were being broken and by those people involved in ridge in waco so those events really informed cliven bundy and his belief that the government was after people so then when they came him to collect his grazing fees he was seeing it as just the next chapter of ruby ridge and waco but more recent turning point happened at the second bundy standoff there was a shooting of one of the leaders of the occupation and that's going on to inspire people to this day yeah that man that was killed during the occupation was a guy named la voie finicky so during the occupation authorities had orchestrated a traffic stop in a rural area wi- with no cell reception where they could easily arrest the leaders of the occupation so he pulled over these two cars and they arrest ammon bundy arrest several other people but lavoix finicky <hes> decided to drive away from that traffic stop and actually tried to blow through a roadblock drive around it into the snow and then he he jumped out of the car all of that was caught on tape and you narrate for us in the first season of bundy ville the scene picks up right after the voi- finnick jumps out of his car and warning. This is tape of a police shooting. Someone fires two shots that hit the truck. He stumbles through knee-deep snow. It keeps shouting. His hands are up at first then he reaches for his jacket. Pocket inside is loaded handgun. He he puts his hands up again and he reaches hands up reach. Finally police do shoot him. He never managed to grab the gun. So investigators released this video and in two different vantage points one was aerial real footage from a law enforcement drawn. The other was taken by smartphone by people inside the cab of the truck so watching that video you see everything unfold. I'd like you there. How did this incident add more fuel to the fire for the anti-government movement well. The response was almost immediate. <hes> shortly after the shooting a memorial popped up at the snowbank where people who supported the bundy's in the anti-government movement talked about it like it was a murder or an assassination or kind this carefully orchestrated hit <hes> by the government on on a member of the patriot movement even though it was so clear from that footage that you saw these two angles and he saying you're going to have to shoot shoot me that that it was unjustified police shooting so in his death i really found in my months even years of investigation that it it becomes really intertwined in with the militia groups in these anti-government groups that showed up at the bundy's standoffs and it became this target for their anger and that's where you pick up with season two tracking those other groups tells a little about them like who they are and what are they doing sure at both of the bundy's high profile standoffs you saw groups like the oath keepers which is one of the largest most well-known militias across the country came to their side. You saw another militia group called the three percenters chapters chapters from nearby states coming to their side on my reporting. I started to see these other threats picking up of white supremacy and violence in these ideologies that had been there long before these two standoffs. I think it's important to note that groups like the oath keepers were actually in charlottesville taking and the side of the old rate during the protests that happen there yeah and i think if it these are groups that generally wouldn't be very fired up about ranching rightly the bundy's sort of provided a great platform to fight the government and that's often. I think what the takeaway that my reporting has found is that it's it has very little to do with the the constitution has very little to do with ranching oftentimes is just looking for new ways to fight off the government and to kind of force <hes> a a belief system like what we saw it at charlottesville on display that's lee host of the podcast series bundy ville so how does that belief system mm-hmm inspire violence when we come back lee investigates that by heading to the scene of a bombing in the fateh mcconnell explosive. That's coming up on reveal from the center for investigative. Reporting impe are ex <music> you from the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. viz is reveal ville. I'm outlet today. Were teaming up with the creators of the podcast bundy ville from oregon public broadcasting and long rates their second season dropped a couple of weeks ago and they're investigating some acts of domestic terror that connected to the bundy's supporters season two begins with a bombing in the summer of twenty sixteen that i bet you never heard of a warning before we get started. This story contains some violent scenes his money ville host lisa tilly panetta is this gravelly town on the nevada side of the border with utah about three hours north of las vegas a desert outpost that was founded in the eighteen sixty s by mormon pioneers panetta is god country and such a western cliche that i literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle tolls street not much happens here but that wasn't the case on july thirteenth two thousand sixteen nine one one. What is your emergency. Hello ma'am ma'am cake for me. Okay and i i can barely hear. You said he was gonna kill you. He said he's calling explosives. You can't are you away from the home. Mm-hmm tiffany cluff was inside her house with her three daughters. When a man came to the door said he was going to blow her house up she should get the kids and leave and demand then lit the fuse on the bomb he'd put inside. The house walked to his car. Got inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head and then everything blew up <music> shrapnel went everywhere curving in long arcs over the town just down the street. The county sheriff's black black smoke and a mushroom cloud billowing into the sky just a moment but i do need conditional information from the okay here. Also she cooks. We have one dispatcher time. She calls back in jail any book it right now. In your nine hundred starts going crazy. All all all nine lines all administrative. I just couldn't y'all that's lincoln county sheriff jerry lee. He lives down the street. He had no idea what was going on a who was involved but tiffany cluff. She knew the bomber guy who came with glenn jones came into your your house up our house cheerfully was standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grab the keys to who is patrol rig and drove toward the chaos and i literally felt that in my chest i felt the concussion in my chest then i could see the russian cloud coming up over the earth in the world. I could hear the power <music>. This was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off. Tiffany kalev recognize the bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure it out so i grabbed the troll rig and by the time i got to my patrol car. The second explosion happened in the more he told us about it. The crazier the story got we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling vehicles in. We actually had to weave through cars that get into the to where the houses and we waved as stop. Stop stop. You're over body parts. I said what you run around with body parts and that's what they said look over there. Look over there settle eggs from the belt down lanes the road the first bomb blew up the house of tiffany and her husband josh cluff. They were nurses in town and lived there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened in the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car park next to the house and the man inside the bomber was glenn jones. A former nurse who used to work with josh jones was the only person hurt in the bombing but when sheriff lee pulled up to the scene he had no way of knowing that it was absolute mayhem like so there's body parts everywhere lee is also the town's coroner and when he pulled up to the scene of the bombing he thought his top priority was identifying. Whoever got hurt you can't really identify someone by just their legs so he started looking for the rest of the body eighty and we did not actually find the over torso which is what we needed for identification. I don't care about the. I mean do care but that's not why i need i need. I need legs. I mean i need fingerprints. I need dental records any that type of stuff to be able to identify somebody. It took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of glenn jones when they did. He wasn't laid out on his back back and easy to identify. He was a tree in the neighbor's yard. Ours it is but even more bizarre is zet when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the corners investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we were able to get fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said d._n._r. Which do not resuscitate and the phone number for the victim of the house is phone number very bizarre stupid question. That's my producer. Ryan has when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. I think we looked at up our system along with <hes> <music>. Ask about glenn jones and they'll say they knew him. Nice sky blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one panic and tells me they wouldn't want to speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town and then offer an opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of workplace grievance between glenn jones and josh cluff josh at one time was glenn's boss at the local hospital and they were good friends glenn even helped josh build his house in pennock but several months before the bombing glenn leftist job at the hospital around the same time he also lost his nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe glenn blamed. Josh share flea tells me within hours of the bombing. It became an f._b._i. Investigation we also had the bomb squad and everything from las vegas. They brought up cadaver sniffing dogs. I mean they brought auto the robot. That was the whole thing i mean. There's a big show the next day all the f._b._i. Told me when asked for comment was that it's quote the policy of the f._b._i. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear nobody in town could really answer my questions and outside of panetta. Not many people people know about it. The national news didn't cover it. This was a bombing on american soil and sure no one was hurt except the bomber himself but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story. It's only after i left panetta that i found a possible answer answer that pointed to something beyond petty disagreement between coworkers so after visiting aca. I started calling around to try to get answers. I found out that glen jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army national guard hard but he never saw combat. I also learned that he had been living in kingman arizona in an r._v. Park right before the bombing happened after the bombing coming. The kingman police department rated glen jones's r._v. They found bomb-making materials inside and a few spiral bound journals with jones's name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for bomb. One detective said quote the entries indicated that glenn jones had been approached by subject identified as josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device. The intended target that officer rhode was identified as fourth of july b._l._m. Mm field office. That's the bureau of land management the same federal government agency that got into the initial dispute with the bundys but here's where things get murky erkki because the fourth of july came in went that year nothing happened and by july thirteenth johnson decided instead to target josh cluff. Here's sheriff carefully. I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. I know there were friends at one point and they were very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal government some reason they would have wanted to bomb a beal field office. It turned out there was it goes back to the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge oregon when one of the group's leaders lavoix finicky vinnicombe was shot and killed. We'll try to avoid that police barricade in two thousand sixteen when the bomb went off in nevada at the club home finicky was already dead ed and the patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical government murdering americans everywhere you look in the patriot movement. You'll see vinnicombe cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles flags bumper stickers. People write songs about him the about accountable own. He's become the figurehead of movement in their report in kingman. Police wrote that there is an entry in jones's notebook indicating that lavoix finn comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the beale office and that quote josh is the cousin of lavoie vinnicombe. I was able to confirm the josh. Cliff is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved loved so i asked sheriff. Lee was coffee angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time way before the the bombing but we did see an anti-government side to cluff. He didn't want to give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis but the gist was that at the hospital ospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone couldn't decide to ask for themselves and cleft wasn't having it yet really angry started yelling being a little bit of an eye opening about how josh felt about government overreach. It's unclear whether cluff and jones were working together to bomb the beal building at first and something went wrong or jones working alone and decided to bomb tom clubhouse for some other reason so what happened between the two of them. Cluff is never given any straight answers about jones or lavoix or bomb at office shortly. After the bombing the clubs packed up would few belongings. They could salvage the move to idaho again. Police have not said that the family family has done anything wrong only confirmed that they did in fact got in touch with us on facebook and ask for an interview finally after few messages ages. He wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past months later. I found an email forum when i reached out again and i tried one more time to get cleft to say something i send him the evidence i had nast whether the bombing was about his cousin voi- finnigan so he responded quote those were terrible times for my family which you're trying to move past at the i did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement. Men have a nice night. Please be respectful of what my family has gone through so here's what we know. Glenn jones was planning to bomb a beal building an appeared to have begun as a response to the death of lavoix finicky him joneses plot was a continuation of the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at bundy ranch but then for some reason jones baum clubs house instead of the beal building in the years since the bundy's high-profile standoffs more acts of of extremist violence have been popping up in the news they aren't necessarily inspired by the patriot movement but some of them share some of the scene anti-government white supremacist beliefs certainly the news and the man suspected of sending a wave of mail bombs across the country is in handcuffs tonight. A florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals just like barack obama hillary clinton and george soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy cabal was accused of sending all those devices to critics of president. Donald trump or georgia man killed a cop killer. Tear guthrie claim to be considered himself sovereign citizen nation to himself. He didn't recognize police. It's already and considering consider and i wondered if the pinnacle bombing was perhaps an early sign of this increasingly radical violence a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless the less into extremist ideologies and how those ideologies become violent. I couldn't ask jones why he blew up the clubhouse or if the the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone who is at plenty ranch and who knew voi- finnigan who also tried to blow up a government building ending that same summer and when we come back leah tracks down that man who said what happened at the bundy ranch served as a rallying cry i to me it was one of the biggest events in this country. This has in his history short boston. Tea party parent civil war like that but it was a wakeup call. This is revealed from the center for investigative reporting and p. R. x. <music> the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. This is reveal. I'm outlet it back. In february at a truck stop outside salt lake city utah lisa tilly and ryan has of the podcast bundy have come to guy in bill keyboard. Keebler blur has been involved with the patriot movement since the bundy's first standoff with the federal government in bunkerville nevada. He says he ran security there afterwards he he started his own militia fifty seven year old william keebler is known by the f._b._i. As a commander of a citizen militia group called the patriots defense force in june of two thousand sixteen that would he hit the button to designate what he thought was a bomb to destroy a building owned by the bureau of land management but it turns out the bomb was a fake komo undercover f._b._i. Agents had given him the device. He pled guilty to the attempted bombing and served time in jail. Now he's out on probation. Leeann ryan pick up the story at that restaurant and salt lake smokes and coffee real quick. They'll keep learn looks like a shriveling old ranch chand. He's got leathery skin. Smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures two thousand thirteen and i had a massive heart attack and had to go in for mercy open heart surgery. We're at a denny's tucked into the corner of the truckstop for most most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide with his own company. We ease into the conversation. Ryan and i are just trying to get a feel for who we're talking to what we can and can't ask but it turns out gablers a storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time. I'm in the army bravo. Infantry went to a lotta specialized training fort bend when germany i'll l. ended there and i think one of the friday saturday morning i woke up on russian communist. Russian border says he also knows his way around computers. Do i used to do costa taster trish. They can't break and they still have nothing. I mean good anyway even says he has a black belt in kung fu fhu studied numerous black belt in four different styles. He says he created his own system of kung fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly rambo your own and i should be clear. I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but i also wasn't in utah taught to figure out whether he got third place in the kung fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the f._b._i. But i that meant convincing him that we weren't f._b._i. Agents raid to talk to people like you. I'm gonna be honestly it would surprise me. Both david pulled out. I just went shot in what i've seen because in keebler world everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me his story yeah. I've been on borrowed time for years. I came here because they wanted to hear keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent but just a few minutes into the interview. What i'm really wondering is how did the f._b._i. Decide to focus on this guy. Is this old. The man in poor health really the most dangerous person in the patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces his training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing the verifiable part bill keebler story starts in twenty fourteen when he spent about two weeks and bunkerville ville nevada cliven bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the bundy's hadn't paid their grazing being fees and the b. M. had come to collect their cattle. The fact that keebler was there was later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back. Then keebler says he was a member of the oath keepers a militia associated with the patriot movement and by his account at bunny ranch he he was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. Leave north actually stop. A lot of people like them play out their stop. People wanna shoot people. I don't want to rehash bundy ranch but the long short of it is no one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the bundy's cows were released in the agents laughed. Keebler was pumped up on the patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events events in this country. This has his history short at boston tea party to several. We're not like that but it was a wakeup. Geico call so in the following months back at home in utah. Keebler started his own militia. He called it patriots defense force or p._d._f. F was a half dozen or so guys got together mostly to talk about self reliance. Basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. He government peppers. We've talked a lot about going off grid about what to do. When things went sideways keebler even showed people how to raise chickens and rabbits for meat meet then a few months later keebler got a phone call from someone he'd met at bunkerville lavar finicky. He wanted me to basically in his place and give him the support that we gave the bundy's back. Then lavoix finicky was just rancher in arizona and keeler said he was building up to his own bunkerville styles standoff with the m. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but i do know that around this time in the late summer of two thousand fifteen finnigan was becoming agitated with the bureau of land management veal a._m. Sarah zero government has said has exclusive legislative power over these lands. He was making that pretty obvious on his youtube page. No none of these bureaucrats crafts do we allow here county none of ever accountable to us emma harvey county. This is the definition of tearing from the way keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and keebler advertises his supposed expertise in military tactics addicts to anyone who'll listen was happy to bring his militia to come help him prepare for the confrontation that the bundy's we got there after the fact if we knew it was coming. We could be prepared because they were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come. Just take all his cal but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for finnish uh-huh cattle records from the beal showed fit income only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven bundy owed more than a million in dollars accrued over twenty years for the beal plan to cattle roundup that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop finicky him from preparing for the worst or keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the bundy's had done at finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto. The landry grazed his cattle and then spring a trap. I don't mean ambush salt and killed and shoot none of that cracks. That's worth thank everybody tresor preser- ad-lib ship the plan was to let the be on the property and then use an excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out at certain place so when they come up and he'll them cattle that can't get up here we keep alert saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what i saw the bundy ranch or an oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and i had to wonder then what are they gonna. Keep them hold them hostage. Why trap them in the first place but before i could get an answer key told me that another member of his militia wanted to blow them all up brad miller's idea. Oh wait till you get right to your brother. It was just up. Keebler says brad miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that. I killing mask to you're killing whoever's truck but brad miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass. He was actually an undercover f._b._i. V. i. agent in fact at varying times. There were three confidential informants and three undercover f._b._i. Agents in keillor's militia and so if you take away keebler the f._b._i. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of p._d._f. Militia all this time finn keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents in court documents their records of text messages one of the other other undercover f._b._i. Agents who went by the name jake davis sent to his handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open pandora's whereas box. I'm worried about our liability in another text. Davis worried about miller's continued taunting keebler quote. I'm all pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas it's like when miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in his head over the course of their investigation the f._b._i. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the west. I patriot movement gatherings. They paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally in the spring of two thousand sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal facilities way out in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal and building that he had scouted in your finnigan's ranch finchem by then had been killed by police after trying to drive around that police blockade oregon over the next couple of months and the f._b._i. Made keebler fake pipe bomb and then on june twenty first twenty sixteen keebler in the rest of his militia traveled to arizona and set the bomb. I'm outside. The building. Keyword pushed the button on a fake detonator the f._b._i. Gave him and then the next morning they arrested him. Topsy picnic brought me a handcuff. This guy comes in dressed bigger shitting grin on his face or allowed to see mr taber trying to brush your sorry ass for two years they had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants armaments and two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert and it's not every day you talked to someone who's tried to bomb a building and i have to say for a while talking to keebler i. I felt like maybe the f._b._i. Missed the mark and manipulated and otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation. Things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when i asked him about how he thinks the federal the government should work think about your ideal situation with the federal government the stink government. What would that look like like what would that what would that world learn their own themselves themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be. The government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs affairs. He says that the government can do its thing trading with china and korea but is no damn business running utah georgia or texas then he starts talking about how muslims are taking over schools. You can't do the pledge of allegiance in school. Were now we got muslims praying and everything else in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like muslims i._s. Keebler you give me an example where this was. It's happening but he just said number places yeah. They have taken over host cities. They want to start prayer. They won't stop all the american stuff. The boy scouts and everything make an islam. They're out in the streets. Writing with hundreds of imbalance shutdown rose copter standing over mix. Nobody are you serious badly. Thanks her for about fifty rednecks before pickup trucks will in their pro. Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best an attacking muslims in the street at worst and it's all informed his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this. This is the kind of talk that brought the f. b. i. to him. I don't know tops now dressed up. They got what looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms and they're doing what they want. Now there was a god. It was preaching christianity to up there. He's been arrested on the internet right now need to homework homework. You think the federal the federal government is in volved in that or you just think it should be no shock at this point to tell you that keebler is also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him. He hates barack. Obama thinks he's part of what conspiracy theorists call the deep deep state shadowy government cabal agreement today put him in the present is that he would make way for more muslims to be of the united states. That's actually come out recently won the news reporters. He was made president so more muslims the u._s. He arranged to be able to like soros his financing a lot of <hes> a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia. You're going on right now. They can kill a child hours. After it's been born to keep it alive long enough the organs to develop didn't kilkare okay and harsh it for parts at this point in our interview. Keebler is looking at ryan. Emmy like we're crazy. Like how do we not know any of this this. I can't believe i don't know none of this. We're looking at keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe stuff talking talking to keebler. I feel like i understand how far down conspiratorial rabbit hole you have to be in order to detonate a bomb that helps me understand glenn jones to oh but at the same time keillor's bigotry as clouded his entire perspective on the world keillor's whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias and anti-government groups. This is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with author jesse walker. Tell put a guy like keebler and context walker wrote. A book called the united states of paranoia. I wanted to understand the role. The conspiracies have played in militia groups throughout history. You know in a cold war era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the john birch society <hes> sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties from you know fears where off the <hes> the enemy is based in moscow fears where the enemy is based in new york and <hes> manipulating moscow nineties after the cold war ended ended events like ruby ridge waco happened conspiracy shifted again and so it's much easier just sorta see washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the internet and while i'm not someone who argues that the internet made people more paranoid made people boomer conspiracy theorists i do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who it previously been much more <hes> separate from one another bill keebler fits this description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for a target for their anger. He was in the army fighting communism. When the cold cold war ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and muslims and women and abortion doctors bill clinton and george soros hillary clinton and brock obama the deep state. He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories so ask keebler. Where's this going in his mind. The shit hits the fan incident incident during the obama administration if he declared more slow rally me rarely around me to central command post and we'll go from there we operations at that point. That would have been should fan so what's the difference now. What's i think if trump declares martial law would be more controlled manner <hes> he's not come after patriots demolition. Do not white people know there. You go pushing the racist bullshit. The people got angry when i asked him. If this entire world she'd conspiracies government balls is really just a veil for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about sharia law evasions at the border how muslims are a plague in a christian nation like america. He tells me i'm off base to ask at this. All really comes down to bigotry. Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas and he's not willing to back down from them. That much is clear when ryan awesome different question happens if the democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges the bra. What do you think happens with the patriots over. I'll bet off just from what i'm hearing seeing on the internet. All bets are off with you. Bet your off take their word keebler guy who tried to blow up a government building in who lives is on a steady stream of hate from the internet says he's had enough if anything were to ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks it'd be time to take up arms again. People are wanting retaliation revenge. They won't pay back for a lot of things this abortion crap what what is happening to our children what has happened to our streets whereas happened in our schools. People want retribution rich bution listening to that story. You might think the government spending a lot of resources versus to stop people like bill keebler but in reality. He's the exception not the rule. Don't get me wrong the f._b._i. Carries out plenty of sting operations nations. They're just usually focus on terrorist acting in the name of islam. Even though there's way more acts of right wing terrorism we looked at this with type investigations sagacious a few years back and found that half of the incidents carried out in the name of islam are stopped with stinks half. Meanwhile stings were used to stop just twelve percent of white supremacists anti-government and other right wing terrorism in other words law enforcement. Usually only folks is on right wing violence after the bombs explode leah. I want to get back to the last thing that we heard from bill keebler that people want retribution. What does he mean by that. There's really been a transition. I think in the year since the bundy's standoffs <hes> a lot of the anti-government movement suddenly loves loves the government under trump which kind of is is counterintuitive right like the anti-government movement is suddenly pro government because trump is talking about things that they care about deeply things like anti immigration issues anti-muslim issues and trump is this kind of anti-government president so retribution for guys like bill keebler is seeing the extremes of those things coming true finally coming to fruition so a country with no immigrants no more islam no more tolerance of anyone wight christian people. I mean the two things the idea that these these groups are anti-government and the fact that suddenly they are pro government under trump is not surprising to me at all because i think the underpinning of both of these things <unk> are white supremacy. How does that play out in anti-government movements. There's this kind of coded language of of racism and bigotry that that drives the groups and in that that you can hear under a lot of what they say so yeah it's not it's not really surprising that after years of being mostly dormant a lot of these anti-government groups had a big resurgence under the first black president under president obama so you can see evidence of the way white supremacy rides along with all of these anti-government anti-government flash points in the last thirty years so like randy weaver the guy who is at the center of the ruby ridge standoff. He was known to hang out at the area nations compound compound in north idaho. <hes> the oklahoma city bomber timothy mcveigh was inspired by a novel called the turner diaries which sort of envisions this <hes> <hes> future dominated by a race war. So what does he have a what people like bill keebler will be doing between now and the presidential election next year i i think bill keebler specifically focused on getting off probation kind of disappearing into the woods. I guess if he could <hes> said he wanted to move out of utah where he feels like the federal government is watching him. He's left social media and not kind of thing but he's still occasionally talks about conspiracies pro-trump messages ages. He's very excited about some of the racist comments that that president trump has been saying as of late so you kind of see a an individual like him him as really an getting excited about trumpet also getting excited about these anti democrat anti liberal conspiracies that that spread like wildfire on on the internet. Why does the government have such a hard time. Stopping these kind of domestic groups and i'm thinking that you know when we look at this. We're primarily talking about white. Supremacists premesis and the government doesn't seem to have a problem tackling other types of terrorism. Why does the government seemed to have such a hard time stopping shopping these groups with violent tendencies. I think it's about priorities. After nine eleven there is a major shift towards focusing on cracking down on international terrorism awesome and it took the focus off of domestic anti-government groups that saw such a resurgence during the nineteen nineties so. I think that your question is right on and what's changed now to stop them. So what else do you uncover in the rest of the season of bundy ville. I answered all kinds of questions. One of those is that i looked at how the anti-government movement recruits other people to do violence and who stands to benefit from that violence so those questions took me all around the american west a- actually led me to a really secretive religious community that i long heard about up in eastern washington that is thought of as this real patriot friendly place yes and i think could be thought of as something of an origin point for a lot of the ideas that the western anti-government movement is excited about liza tilly. Thank you so much coach thank you. We want to thank the whole team of bundy ville for their help. As we said the full run of season two is just out with more twists and turns highly recommend you check it out. You can also read the series on long reach dot com slash bundy ville bundy villes produced by long reads in oregon public broadcasting our partners and bring you this week. Show many thanks to the o._p._b. Editors ryan has anna griffin and long read editors mike dang and kelly stout in fact checker matt giles our executive producer. Kevin sullivan edited today show with help from reveals. Emily harris and g amini are reduction managers news. One day in the hosa are sound design. Team is the dynamic duo j. breezy. Mr jim briggs and fernando-mania room are c._e._o.'s krista schaumburg mad thompson. Thompson is our editor in chief our theme music is by colorado might support for bills provided by the raven david logan foundation the john d and catherine t. macarthur foundation the jonathan logan family foundation the ford foundation the hazing simon's foundation the democracy fund and the ethics excellence in journalism foundation reveal is a co-production at the center for investigative reporting p._r. Ex i'm outlets and remember there is always more to the story yeah <music>.