20 Episode results for "assistant manager"
Pay It Forward Friday: Matt Gagnon
"Hey everyone welcome to another pay. It forward Friday episode where we highlight people that we feel are doing a great job but publishing leadership content that resonates with us we will include links to their work and tag them on our post to make sure they know we appreciate them. This is our way to say thanks to other leaders and individuals that are having a positive impact on helping others become better leaders through sharing their thoughts opinions and ideas online for all to see in here. Chris and I have always wanted to use our platform to advocate for other people passionate about leadership and give our listeners as much content as possible to help sharpen their own skills to different perspectives and approaches. If you like us to check out any one specific please tagged him in the comments or send us a message with links to their content on this episode. I WanNA recognize Matt Gannon. Maddox keynote speaker. Mindset coach author rule breaker family man and bulletproof optimists. Matt is constantly sharing content on social media in his everything from cross country. Rv FAMILY TRIPS to weight loss. Journeys to go in live sitting in his car to share inspirational messages. I instantly appreciated mass genuine optimism and willingness to share his deepest thoughts and struggles to help others. And then I realized why it all felt so natural to me. You see matt worked as a retailer for most of his career. Starting as an assistant manager in holding positions all the way to the multi unit to now being a coach for Forbes in a Lincoln learning instructor as the President of Life Story Coaching and Development Matt Certified Exceptional Management Skills. Customer Service Skills Generations in the workplace presentation skills consultative selling skills and negotiation skills through fathom corporate training and development. Matt has a lot to offer and he gives away so freely online for all the scene here so I highly recommend you take a few minutes to check out Matt's content as usual. The link to his page will be in the episode notes. Great Job Matt and thanks for helping others to Hashtag be a better leader. Thanks for listening and let us know who else deserves some Kudos.
Pay It Forward Friday: Nicholas Kissinger
"Hey everyone and welcome to another pay. It forward Friday episode. Will we highlight people that we feel are doing a great job of publishing leadership content that resonates with us us we will include links to their work and tag them on our post to make sure they know we appreciate them. This is our way to say thanks to other leaders individuals that are having a positive impact on helping others become better leaders through sharing their thoughts opinions and ideas online for all to see and hear. Chris and I have always wanted wanted to use our platform to advocate for other people passionate about leadership and give our listeners as much content as possible to help sharpen their own skills through different perspectives and approaches approaches. If you would like to check out any one specific please tag them in the comments or send us a message with links to their content on this episode. I I WANNA recognize Nicholas Kissinger first of all very cool name. Second of all Nicholas is a store manager at the vitamin SHOPPE and is a power user. Sir On Lincoln what I love about Nicholas content is genuine happiness for being a retail leader. He shares his excitement for the work that his team does he. He big up big up says direct leaders and even take selfies with vendors that swing by store to deliver new products Nicholas recognizes performance both by individual individual and for his team as a whole he is constantly sharing gratitude. I people and also share some great inspirational quotes. He volunteers for his local community. Eddie and his merchandising is on point. Yeah I'm the guy who's zooms in on the background of the pigs to check pricing laser lining. That's what twenty plus years of retail. Gets you anyways what I really enjoyed about. Nicholas's content is two back-to-back post for about a month ago in one post Nicholas wishes one of his peers. Holly Holly Erickson. Good luck for an epic day and thanks for her mentorship in the next post he gushes over being so proud of a man to klay who used to work for him as as an assistant manager and now has her own store and is doing great. This type of positive energy and genuine excitement for others is contagious. So please click the Lincoln the episode notes to learn more about Nicholas and see his lincoln posts. Great Job Nicholas and thanks for helping to Hashtag be a better leader. Thanks for listening and let us know who else deserves some Kudos.
The Front Table: 3/12/19
"Thanks for listening and reading with us on this week's front table from the seminary caught bookstores in Chicago brows, each week's front table and subscribe to our free weekly Email newsletter. For more serious books for curious readers at some coop dot com, this week, seminary coop assistant manager, Elaine Jones picks up the radical feminism of Andrea Dworkin and three new translations by women of classical works by men. That could land Jones. System manager of the seminary cop Elena. What's looking good on the front table today? I wanted to call our attention to a couple of different types of reissues, or revisitation 's that we've got up at the front here. The first one is it's been out for a little bit now, but it is still prominently displayed over on our paperback front table. It is Emily Wilson's new translation of the odyssey, which has just been praised up and down. And I think is just a fantastic example of taking something that's been done over and over and over again. And it is people don't necessarily to it as a source of something utterly new also Emily Wilson is the true the first woman to translate Homer's Iliad in that is what is has been said. But I believe it is I wound who translated into English. I believe there was a female translator. We've got a published translation and it was somewhat. I may have been Romanian but it may be missed remembering. Really fun to talk about geography with you. Makes me feel better. Because you know it better because I know it so. Well, okay. I feel like my high horse time because I know it's so poorly. Good that you've got it figured out from a geographical feature looking down into a valley aerial view of self confidence. Right. Great. The next thing I will point out is heart of Princeton series ancient wisdom for modern readers in which they re translate, and kind of rearranged, some of the some classics from things that will find on our shelves in the library, and they're both the same composite size of the low the trim sizes is is. Pocket people that you're reading ancient, you know Greek exactly. Sure, yeah. Like the lobes that tends to have facing tech. So the original Greek and the translated English this one in particular, that's on our front table, though. Of course, right now we're looking at four out simultaneously. We've got how to keep your cool Seneca. How to be free with EPA Titas. How to think about war, which is the one address now. But it's collection of the speeches from history of the Peloponnesian war. And then how to be a friend from Cicero. This is a series that's been coming out from Princeton University press for about seven years now. And has just been very, very I think they started with one volume assuming it would be a single volume and it just took off from there. They've been doing it ever since many of the volumes are Cicero think they have a few Seneca. But this one here. Through cities. I was told by have not independently verified that this is the first woman to have published translation of through cities in English, which I think given that it is about brutality, cutting manipulation in war and politics. The idea is that women have a different perspective. And while considering those issues and bringing them into English next thing, I'll move onto over on our paperback front table west days at hot slit, from injury workin. This is a collection of her works across her life up until I think the last one in there's from it may actually be from two thousands. Now, it is from one thousand nine hundred nine she, of course, died in two thousand five one of these things, the work accomplishes. The collection accomplishes is taking some for more well known in polemical essays, so pornography and woman hating, and putting them next to one of her novels. Some of her other essays. Is that just take on different styles different tones, such that she's not only known you know, by reading this work? You see that there's much more to her than just this anti pornography stamps, that was kind of, you know, blasted everywhere in, in the eighties nineties, and then there was something as I was going through a future catalog. Just the other day, something that popped out at me coming up from f s g so far, Strauss Andrew in, I believe July is a new translation of beowulf. That is, you know, the blurbs that this is at last a feminist. Translation of beowulf, what that means yet to be seen. I don't have an arc of it yet, but it is translated by Maria. Devante Headley who, of course, wrote the MIR wife a few years ago, which itself is a modern retelling of bail wolf beloved by my sister-in-law. I have not read it, but it again what, what can new translator bring to this work. That hasn't been read to death in school classes. Rooms groups and I noticed with this is their name to the series from Princeton. Nope. Ancient wisdom for modern readers in the ancient wisdom for modernisers Sears. I notice nothing. So modern is to be practical a guide and like how to buy your first home or something from any of the stoic, philosophers nothing it'd be at home building, how to build build a house. Yeah. That's kind of a metaphor. Is that right? You think? Hear more from the co-op widely regarded as one of the best academic bookstores in the world, including conversations with scholars and writers and book, she won't hear about anywhere else on open stacks, the seminary co op bookstore podcast available now wherever you download podcasts.
Ep 138: When it's everybody's job, it's really nobody's job.
"No role place. Just real crystal rain so share four tickets of combined experience to help you come a more effective leader. We've never really as a workforce spent a lot of time on making sure developing good leaders will be able to share stories experience of a stakes failures successes. This is packing. Your leadership. Welcome to hacking, your leadership. I'm Chris in on the Renzo Lorenzo on this episode. I wanna talk a little bit about hierarchies and responsibility. Okay. After the thoughtful Thursdays that we posted. I dunno to maybe we can have two weeks ago. The topic was do hierarchies raise employee engagement or lower it. And after that episode posted we got a surprising amount of feedback from people talking about what exists in their company or in their organization, and what they have to deal with. And I found a lot of people telling me that the situation they find themselves in our that they have co leaders that people who they have hierarchies at some point. But that the position that the person who reached out to me was in was one of shared responsibility where they and one or two or more people who are considered peers or equals on on the org. Chart which does happen. Also share responsibilities to where up there. Kind of all held accountable, positively or negatively when the metrics or the people piece or whatever it is succeeds or fails. And I was surprised honestly, I'd I'd not known that was such a big thing. Most of the organizations I've worked for have really defined responsibilities by position. And even though you might have several people next to each other on the org chart in terms of where they fall there's a clear delineation for who is responsible for what? And you know, personally speaking, I can't see any positive to shared responsibility from a from an actual on paper. This is your job responsibility standpoint. Even though I know you'll a lot of people help each other out. Sometimes do you know in in the places you've worked have you had co leaders where you are literally equally responsible for the for the same stuff. And how has that worked it? Absolutely. I mean, I was an assistant manager for a very long time. And I think that you'll many times run to the space where. In most businesses, especially in retail. You have kind of like somebody that does operation somebody that does kind of the inventory, so many that shirt in merchandising, sometimes you have sales in many times in some of the larger businesses, you'll have multiple sales assistant managers, and I think, you know, in the from a system company expectation standpoint, the jobs are exactly the same. There's no delineation in regards to responsibility. What ends up happening is the somebody has to be decision makers usually the general manager of a store who says, okay, we'll have got multiple people in the same title in the same space. I'm going to break out the responsibility to overcome kind of what you're talking about and say, well, I want you to lead this part of the business, and then you'll leave that part of the business. And I think that you know, that that makes sense and that's necessary, especially as as teams get larger large leadership teams, get larger larger I think where you have to be conscious of it is is it. Works. Well, when you can break that out into operational tasks or specific strategies that somebody will be responsible for implementing I think we're you have overlap is in the day to day elements of job where multiple leaders are connecting with the larger team of individual contributors doing the same responsibilities, but in different ways, and I think that's where they can cause a lot of kind of strife it confusion. But I think to your point like, I I I experienced that in multiple organizations at the same level specifically as assistant manager. And I think the only way that I've seen where it was at least, you know, reduced in issue is when there is somebody who can see that it needs to be somewhat the work needs to be divided up. But also, these it'd be divided up fairly. And you also have to layer in some elements of where's the overlap, and how do you work through some of the overlap? Yeah. I guess true. I think there's a difference between who does a job and who is responsible on paper for that job. And so when you have people who kind of co lead a team, it makes sense that that each of them would pick up slack from the other based on time not at work, or you know, some person is more busy than another because of a specialized projects they're involved in or not. So there is definitely overlap, and I think it helps a lot to have kind of a team of people, or at least one or two other people where you can bounce ideas off of you, can, you know, get get help executing. They can help pick up the slack. If you're struggling and vice versa, where it becomes a problem is when it's time to hold people accountable for a lack of performance who do you hold accountable, and we all know the political saying the buck stops here. You know, that's that was a the Ronald Reagan said that you know, almost thirty years ago, and he what he meant. It was that it doesn't matter. Who is responsible for what at the end of the day. There's gotta be a name. There's a person and that person is responsible for this. So if this is failing you might be able to talk to ten or twelve or twenty or fifty people on the reasons why it's failing. But at the end of the day if you want that number or that metric or whatever it is to change. There has to be a person a single person that you sit down with and say, this is part of your job responsibility. Now, I know you get help from other people, and we're going to talk to them to. But at the end of the day if for this for this number to be it needs to be it is part of your job. And and that is a lot easier said than done in organizations where you're trying to make a lot of people happy, and I think when a lot of people share responsibilities. It comes from a lack of leadership. It comes from leaders saying kind of I don't I don't wanna put this person on the spot or I don't wanna make somebody else feel like they weren't picked to lead this team or to run something. So instead, I'm gonna. Take a step back in not make the tough decision. And I'm gonna give it to everybody. I'm gonna say, oh, it's it's both of your responsibility. Because I because I can't pick one of you. And that leads to more problems down the road when it comes to who do you sit down with when something is failing. I understand the concept that I kind of I see where you're coming from. I can tell you as you were talking. I was thinking about myself personally, there's been many times where I will go to a collection of leaders that that are, you know, the thing they have in common is that they all do operate within the same element of the business. Maybe it's see no a specific piece of the business that they all are leaders in it, and there may be multiple layers there. They may be supervisors managers. You know, more of a a tenured or a senior manager assistant manager, whatever that looks like where they are a collection of individuals that are responsible for a piece of the business, and I can go to that entire team and say, this is the expectation of this team is that you, you know. No, we must solve for this. And in all of you need to work editor to get kids. This piece I think that approach only works when you have a team of people who are aligned on the objective and the goal are willing to to to work hard, collectively to get the results are willing to communicate and maybe aren't a different place as a team are these people that report to you will. Yes. No. Like, some of them are direct reports and other others are not some of them report to the to the leader. So like, I, you know, as a leader of leaders, it's it's kind of across the board. And so like, I think that I I agree with you in the idea that the buck has to stop somewhere. I think what I've learned over time is as you build teams as you empower people as you start to get them to understand the value of teamwork and you know, in in the the what what happens when you're when you're able to leverage the talents of multiple people. Is I've actually started to shift to be less to beat the individual and more to beat the collective. But again, I must say that only works when that group of people are in a place where they are working together. They are challenging one another. There is no weakest link per se. There's no one individual who is either not doing their job, not pulling their weight, not engage like when you have that happen, you then have to kind of go that route of the individuals responsibilities layer that in for them, hold them accountable to what they're what they're therefore. I think it can only work that with that way. When you have a collection of people that are actually doing great work together. And and they're holding themselves and each other accountable to make sure they're doing the job. I agree with that. So then let me give you a scenario. Then if under those circumstances, if it if the team doesn't deliver if you've asked eight people to collectively work together on fixing this problem and after a month or a quarter or six months, or whatever they haven't. If it gets to the. A point where someone has to be disciplined on paper for it for whatever it is today. All get disciplined for it. Or is there a person that it stops with? Or is that person you that person has me one hundred percent? That's correct. Yeah. I think that that's the reality. Is that if you, you know, if you're gonna work in that type of space, and you know, leverage at team that way that is what you have to sign up for as the leader to say. Like, I I will take that accountability. If this team does not deliver on the expectations that were being asked to deliver on one hundred percents me. Yeah. You know? And like, I said, I think I think were that changes is that if you do have, you know, somebody on the team who is not doing the job is not pulling their weight is not working with the team to get the results than your responsibility. As a leader is to then, you know, dial into that person and held them accountable for their portion of what they're supposed to be responsible for. But yeah, I think that you know, when when you. Operate in that space of it being about a team that you as directly to take on the accountability. I love that. And I love that model, and and the implication behind it to you what you're basically saying is that is that when you have a high performing team, you kind of give them an out meeting, you're telling them, hey, you know, what I like the way the this team works together so much that I'm willing to take on the responsibility of if this fails, it's on me. It's not on any of you. Because I know that collectively you'll work better together. Now, if this doesn't work, and we have to go back to actually delegating the responsibilities person by person than what I'm saying is it's no longer on me to get this result. It's on me to make sure I have the right people in place and the buck only stops with me if I have failed to get the right people in place, and that's when you have to start breaking the responsibility up again now. Absolutely, right. And I think that it's. Yeah. I think I think how we star. This show and talking about the fact that it does have to end on some one in on individual. I think that just proves the exact point is that. Yes. Like, you can lead in this space in a couple of different ways. But to answer your initial question. I guess the answer is absolutely. It's one person. And it's in an it's the leader. Right. Like, it is that person. And you can maybe cascade that accountability down. That's more like delegation though, as opposed to accountability. Right. Absolutely. Right. If you if you don't have a high performing team working together to achieve things that yes, you have to start somewhere. You have to start. You know, you have to start at at a place where the teamwork is broken like that's kind of where you have to start. So if you have a collection of supervisors, and then our supervisors that are ineffective this engage not getting their work done. You have to start there because you have to you have to make sure that the people that are on that team are working together as a team to get the work done. And if they're not, then, you know, the individuals need to go the need to go, and then you level up to then, you know, the manager levels, and then kinda so on and so forth until you get to the point where you have a noth- movement going as a collective team that you can then shuffle the shuffle the accountability to yourself, and then allow them some space to work together as a team. But I think it's a it's a it's a great dialogue. And it's a great reminder of understanding in defining. You know, how high performing is your team if you're if you're not willing to take that accountability? Or if you find yourself having to. Separate out specific people in individuals on your team because of the lack of their effectiveness, then that is also where the buck stops with you as a leader. As are you doing your job to move them out of the team to then be able to take on the responsibility of allowing the team to do? Great teamwork. I like that too. Because the there's no quicker way to kill the morale of team then for the high performers on team to feel like they're being equally held accountable for the poor performance of one or two people. And so when you have a situation like that where you have dealt you have gaps in the performance of people on a team, it it becomes almost impossible to give that team responsibility. You have to delegate it out and break it out and make sure that you are recognizing and rewarding people who are doing. Well. And you're holding people accountable who are not, and they almost have to earn the ability to have you take the accountability away from them in place it on. Yourself. It's something they earn after several months or several quarters as a high performance team a team of cohesion where very works together. What you get with that level? Is you get the leader of the team you being in that case saying, you know, what I think you you've gone as far as you can under these circumstances. Let me kind of opened the gates here and take this this level off of you and all on it myself because I think what you can accomplish a team is so much more. But it's definitely something that you can't just give to to any group of people to start with. Yeah. The other thing that I would say too is that in high performing teams, and those that work well together there was so continually be Delta's in between you'll certain elements of what they bring to the table is leaders in their drive at what they're capable of doing like, you're you're always going to kind of have a top middle bottom situation of any team itself. But I think is important to recognize as a leader when you're building a high performing. Team that it does take having multiple perspective multiple facets to how you get the work done. And opinions and things like that. The core of what they have to share is the values in the drive to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish as a larger vision of team. But how they do it you kind of needed to be different and somewhat abrasive, and you kind of need them to challenge and push each other to be able to make sure that the best idea wins, and that it's not just a Lion Group thinking and that type of deal. So I just wanted to add that ended up because I think many times when people hear high performing teams are everybody is working together that they take. They can I think that means that things move smoothly. And there's no there's no heat. And there's no, you know, bumping heads. And I'm and I'm telling you for what hundred percent fact that that's not the case that if it is the case, it means, you're not you're not you know, breaking any barriers. You're not getting any better, exactly. If I'm if I'm not seeing sparks if I'm not having them, you know, be pushed a little bit here. And there if I'm not seeing them get frustrated with one another than that, I feel like we're not pushing hard enough and they're not polishing each other. Well, enough in that space, you need to have a lot of that. If you truly have a passionate team that's looking to to drive the best results. They can drive collectively you've got to have some of those fireworks and sparks you just have to make sure that those things are results of passionate people doing great work and not high driven. Great people having to battle people who don't want to do their job. I completely agree. And would that it brings us to this episodes one minute hack, the one minute hag? Okay. For this episode one minute hack. Here's what I wanted to do. I want you to consider any elements of a rolls responsibility or expectations that are not clearly defined by your organization as I mentioned earlier in the show when I was an assistant manager for many years there were times when I had the same title as somebody else in in the building that worked with me. And what it required was as a leader of leaders. Somebody saying here's what I here's exactly how I am defining the expectations and the responsibilities of your job as you as the individual. So if you're a leader of leaders, you need to make sure that if there are things that your company does not describe or explain in regards to roles and responsibilities or if you have overlap of people that have the same title within your organization that you as a leader are very clear with who is responsible for what what the expectations are b before they become an issue if. Things do not go as planned or expectations are not met. Now. Sometimes that person can be you. And if it is you unit to be very clear as well. With your people in your team that it is your responsibility that you are taking that responsibility of some of these things, but here's what you need from them to make sure that that the expectations are still met or exceeded. And here is the result of what happens if they are not met or exceeded in. Here's the change in your behavior or how you will delegate responsibility going forward if they're unable to meet the expectations collectively as a team. I think it's fantastic woman it hack, and I think the reason why this is so important is because if you wait until there's an issue that arises, and you have to hold somebody accountable. If you wait till that moment to define what these responsibilities and accountabilities are the emotion of that situation will lead many leaders to hold the wrong people accountable either to let people off the hook that should be held accountable or to hold people accountable that really didn't. Deserve it. Because for whatever reason they're low performers anyway, if you clearly define these roles and responsibilities that your organization doesn't do for you in advance. When the problem happens, you'll know the correct pathway, and and you will have the emotion of the situation kind of overpower it. Yep. Completely agree. And with that it brings us to the end of this episode this hack, your leadership on Lorenzo. And I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.
Ep 129: Some leaders really struggle with conflict resolution between their employees.
"No role place. Just real crystal rain so share four tickets of combined experience to help you come a more effective leader. We've never really as a workforce spent a lot of time on making sure developing good leaders will be able to share stories experience of a stakes failures successes. This is packing. Your leadership. Welcome to hacking, your leadership. I'm Chris in Lorenzo and Lorenzo yesterday. I was binge-watching the office while I was getting some work done. It's something that I do often. Because I I've seen the show so many times that I can kind of have just playing in the background and kind of listen to it while I'm doing other things and not actually pay attention and the episode that happened to be on was around conflict resolution, and if for people who haven't seen the show, it's it's a farce, and you you should watch the episode on conflict resolution in how how people who don't know how to lead teams of people can manage to mess it up. But it got me thinking about in in a in a non satirical kind of way. I know there are a lot of leaders out there who have a problem with conflict resolution, they they end up being the referee for their employees, or they don't know how to resolve conflict that kind of hope it goes away. It's almost like they're they find it easier to resolve conflict between themselves and people then they do find it to resolve. Conflicts between people on their teams. And you know, we got a lot of good feedback from our last episode on you know, delivering feedback on. What is it look like when people deliver feedback poorly and that creates conflict, and so I feel like this is a really cool follow episode on. How do we resolve conflict? Res-? How do we how do we execute conflict resolution as leaders? So have you ever been in a situation where you found yourself kind of trying to figure out how to make to people who were both good employees get along really so to speak and get their job done. When all you want to do is like, you know, come on. Let's just get back to work. You know, why why are we worrying about this? Absolutely. I think it happens between two good employees. It habits sometimes between a good employment bat employ halves between two bad employees. Oh, yes. I think to a degree in the right cultures and environments, you actually want some conflicts like, I know we briefly touched on this before in previous episodes. But you know, when you're building culture. You have really great passionate people with opinions. And you're empowering people in your inspiring them. You're going to get some conflict in regards to people challenging, you know, their ideas challenging their thoughts and wanted to get to the best solution. Now again, that idea works in a bubble where you're saying this is a positive type of conflict where maybe it's not what most people would define as conflict is people having a personal disagreements or they're in a place where they've, you know, maybe attempted to resolve the issue in neither party is happy with that. Or they're still having some issues that type of thing. So as a leader, I can tell you when when you have to step into those situations and bring people together to work through conflict. It is vitally important that you allow people to express what it is in in in really listen to each person talking, you know, it. It can be very easy as leader sometimes to just dive right into what you were saying, which is like can't we all just kind of like figure this out, and you know, work together and make this make this kind of go away. But listening is critical because as a leader if you're trying to understand the medically or maybe where there was, you know, whether it was a rub or whether it was an element of somebody wasn't listening or the communication was breaking down. Trying to understand what happened how it happened who caused it is important to be able to then dive into maybe helping an individual work on skills or capabilities to not have the continuing conflict over and over and over again. Yeah, I I love what you said about how conflict is kind of necessary or at least not not necessary, but the unavoidable by product of a team where every person is striving to do better or to solve problems or to get rid of an efficiency or to break down things. That were done poorly in now, they want to do them better. I mean, that's just an it's going to happen. When you when you have teams of people who are passionate together, there's gonna be some head butting. I think the the difference lies in whether or not you view the opponent as another person on your team. Or if you've you the opponent as whatever inefficiency or problem, or or or thing that you can collectively tackle together. And we see this not just in work, but we see it in in in politics in an in any time when the the desire to win starts leading you to believe that the per- the person with the opposite opinion is the enemy as opposed to both of you are on the same team working towards a common goal. So when when it comes to conflict in the work environment. I feel like a lot of conflict isn't over what the outcome should be. But whether how do we get to that outcome? And so if you can start there if you can start with with a common ground of thinking that okay, both myself, and this other employees have the same desired outcome, which is whatever whatever the the company goal is or whatever the the the new training is the new behavior is whatever you're looking for is an organization if you both have that goal, which I think you should then then the conflict can be rephrased or kind of re reframed in a way where both of those employees are on the same team working towards a common goal. They're not opposing forces trying to win. So to speak yet. No, I completely agree in in. Sometimes it I was just as you were talking thinking about very specific examples even recently in conversations where I've spoken with you know, leaders of people, and where there was conflict, and I think what what can be very helpful. In those situations is even. Going so far is to kind of reminding them of the values that we share right? So as an example having understand that there's conflicts talking to either parties ahead of time and sitting down saying like lick lick, let's work through this. Because let's all agree on something. I are we as leaders looking to create the best experience for our people for their personal development and to help them achieve their goals in both parties said will. Yes, fantastic. We are on the same exact page right now. Let's talk about how we see that work being done differently in. What is it about your approach or the other person's approach were maybe we have some dialogue around, you know, why were on two different pages or why we're having competing priorities here. But I I love what you said. Because I think that that is the first step in my opinion of really working through conflict amongst team members or amongst leaders is starting with the common ground. And reminding them that we are actually looking to get the same work done or that we had the same values or that we had the same passions. But looking for first and then having the dialogue to work through. Why we are you know, maybe having a conflict around the how we get it done. Yeah. I love that you brought up values because I think that area were a lot of leaders struggle when it comes to conflict resolution between people on their teams are in the idea that you that you as the leader need to be able to, you know, solve the conflict without eroding the relationship between either of the two people, and and when you can solve a conflict in a way that makes both people get what they want which is rare. Then you do it, obviously. That's that's easy one. But I think a lot of leaders default to solutions where both people end up feeling slighted still because they're choosing fairness over values. And I think that that that's a very quick way. As a leader to erode the confidence that your team has in you when the the the right way to do. It would be to make sure that whatever decision you make you do it not not even thinking about who the employee's are and who will be impacted or what relationship ships will be impacted by it. But rather what do my own personal values and the values of the organization say, and if that dictates what the outcome should be then it's time to take sides. It's time to say that this is the right way to lead. Even though it makes one person like me and one person not because if I can sit down with that person who doesn't like the outcome and say this wasn't against you. This is why I made the decision the way I did it it's based on this set of values that I can articulate clearly that I share with the organization, and that if the tables were turned I'd be making the same decision doesn't matter who you are who the other employees it matters. What is important to this organization? To me as a leader. I think that's a good way to help leaders kind of get out of this rut, where they feel like, oh, what do I do the most important thing to me is the relationship with my people. How do I salvage that? While also getting rid of the conflict yet. No, I think it's a great call out because I think it's one of those things where you know, we don't we don't get to debate. You know, the values of the organization or we don't get to debate the integrity of what we do. You know? So I think that yet as a leader, you know, you mentioned that earlier on in the episode about kind of being a referee. And I think the assumption of a referee is that you're the third party who has listen everything and kind of find where the middle ground is. But sometimes you're the referee and you have to throw the flag. Ceo will hold on here. I'm going to enforce the rules of the game. I'm gonna force the values of the organization, I'm gonna I'm gonna enforce the, you know, the expectations of the organization or a policy or procedure. So like, we we. Ha we don't get a chance to debate or talk about conflict. If it's in this, you know, place where it's about I don't agree with this policy will the policy is the policy we need to say like if this is what we stand for or this is the expectation then that is what that is. Now, if you have a conflict around, maybe how somebody approached you about it, or maybe, you know, language that they used or things like that. We can talk about the personal dynamics of the conversation. But the end of the day as leader you jump right onto that side in say like this is not about you know, a right or wrong. This is about a an enforcement of a policy or it's something that we are absolutely not going to do with our team or with our organization yet. That's true. But I'm talking even deeper than that where it's not as clear as a policy where you have to actually rely on what your personal values are. So we have to assume first that your personal. Align with your organization or you wouldn't be there. So if you can say that then the decision might have to be made based on what those values are, even if it means that there's some gray area. So policies are really clear you can say, well, this is in policy. This is not an and then you almost don't have to take stance on it. You're saying I'm just enforcing a policy here. But when a leader when leaders have problems with this. I think it has to do with them not wanting to make their employees feel like they took a stance on something that it that. It was a that. It was a subjective area where they had to kind of make make a judgment call or values call where there wasn't a single right answer you as the leader have to be able to make those decisions based on what fits with your values. What what's going to allow you to sleep well at night, and sometimes that means having to take one employee side over another. It's interesting because I was as you were talking through that I was trying to think of times in situations where it, you know, maybe sometimes we're even. The values of you know, what the organization expects you live by actually override a policy that the organization has also given, you know, and and I know that that's not necessarily when we're talking about conflict management in between two employs. But I have seen that happen where you know, one employee is looking to do something for a customer as a result of maybe something that happened where this kind of like, a we need to do the right thing here, and then another employees saying, yeah. But that's not what the policy states, you know. So now, you're in this space where you know, technically, both of them are right one is on the value side one is on the policy side. And I think as a leader, I think values override policy, so you look at it and say, well, no, this is absolutely the right thing to do based on all the information that we have and we need to own this and fix this. Those are the times. When you can, you know, you can you can maybe override a policy because again, you know, most time we'll say policies are there to actually protect us in in their intent is to make sure that we have something that we can look at to make the best decision possible. But also the values though, I think is the thing that you really have to spend the time in in it can be very difficult. I can remember very specifically. Now man probably fifteen sixteen years ago. Never forget this. I had a female leader that was in the service. You know department of a store that I was in his assistant manager, and you know, I had to make a decision to take care of a customer because as as a team we had committed to that customer to do something. And we had we had misquoted them. The the employees had told them that we would do something in that. We would cover it, and they were wrong the employee was was wrong. But they admitted today it said it the customer had told me that they had said it and so at that point. And I felt that we had made a verbal commitment to take care of that customer. And we were going to do what we said we were going to do and that leader was not happy with me at that point. Because it was like this is not the policy we should not do this. This is not consistent with what we would do for other customers, and I had to talk to her and say, look, we we will talk about this. But but we made a commitment to the customer, and as a part of our organizational values like we live up to our promises, and we live up to our commitments, and we have to do this. And I and I did it. And then she and I had a conversation a couple of hours later about that. And we talked specifically about this. You know, and so there was conflict, you know, there was conflict resolution that we had to get through as a leader. And as in other leader, but it was very much that exact conversation where it was like we have to lean on our values in this instant over superseding the policy, and we got into a really good place, and we have some good dialogue. But that does happen quite often. I'm glad you ended in a good place with that leader. And I completely agree with it. And would that it brings us to this episode's one minute, tack the one minute hack. Okay. So for this episodes one minute hack, here's where like feed, you do get your pen and paper out, and I want you to write down the actual stated values from your organization. And the reason why is when you walk into any type of conflict resolution issue when you're working through the conversation of understanding what's going on. And where you want to start. I want you to look through the lens of the stated values of the organization. I that should really be the priority above all things above policy above personal relationships above tenure any of those types of situations whatsoever. Looking at the values, and the reason why this is so important is that the one thing that will be long-term maintaining as your brand as a leader is being able to always lean on and leverage of the values of the organization and create consistency across the board. When making these types of decisions, sometimes it will not be so clean cut. And so easy to do. But if you always fall back onto the values that will help you make sure that you make a decision that you can stay behind for the long term. And it also makes sure it also makes sure that your decisions are grounded individuals of the organization as Chris stated earlier, if your personal values are not aligned with your organization values that may be an issue in you really need to consider that. But what should happen is? If you were aligned with the values of your innovation and leaders that work there that should be a great starting point for making a lot of these decisions and being able to work through a lot of conflict. Yeah. I think it's a fantastic woman at hack, and I think it's important to remember that values aren't black and white. They a lot of them live in the gray. So this isn't about being able to have a solution that checks all the boxes, and and makes you feel great about it. There might be some times we have to make a decision as a leader where you're choosing between bad options. And you're picking the least bad option. What's important is that you're able to articulate why you chose the path you chose and. That you are grounding in those value can articulate which value. This is this is why I did what I did. And had nothing to do with the person had to do with making sure that I was honoring this state value the organization, and I think if you if you go about it that way, you can't lose completely agree. And with that it brings us to the end of this episode this hacking, your leadership Lorenzo, and I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.
The Front Table: 3/26/19
"Thanks for reading analysts with us on this week's front table from the seminary club bookstores in Chicago brows, each week's front table and subscribe to our free weekly Email newsletter at some coop dot com for more serious books for curious readers this week, forgotten no good, or simply on sale seminary coop. Assistant manager, Elaine Jones looks past different table for books of great value at an invaluable lesser cost our search for what remains and why begins here at the stores entrance. What's expensive book that I've wanted to buy recently? Oh thinking, and being Boko is interested in. This is good thinking in being and thinking about the price and being astonished at how expensive it is. A lot of people, that's a lot of money including me. So I think a common misconception incite really misconception. I don't know if it's misconception, but a common thought when you enter place, any books are really, but especially perhaps a place like the seminary cough that specializes in titles from university presses, which we won't get into now. But are often for reasons known and unknown very expensive. There's a lot of labor time. A lot of research time, and a lot of editing time that goes into the production of university press book Elena as, as a book editor as well. Precise incite into that. Is that right? So you really know why we're ascribing this value to books. There is a reason that you can always tell when there's a paid copy editor on board with a project, and it usually makes the book better. But there's also you know, if you're talking about works that are either in translation or that have passages that have been translated as part of the research. There's translation fees. There's foreign rights fees and stuff. So there, there really are a lot of things tied up in the cost of university press book, which is not always apparent the casual browser. We're here today to talk about incidentally, the front tip where we're standing now. But also at the front of house front of store, some books, that are marked down, and you're going to tell us why and what those books are called. Yes. Exactly. Yes. It's the remainder carts. This is just an abandoned cart. I've put some remainders on but yeah here at the front of the star. We have various sales sections. Some better signed than others who just wanted to point, you around the different things that we have in reasons why they may have ended up here on sale, despite us. You know, fully valuing the book, this is not trying to undercut anyone this is not trying to light out some form of labor that's gone into the book. There are other reasons why these books are lower price, so to these I pulled brand Luther Andrew pedigree from penguin, press and east west street from Naf by Philippe sands got a couple of these in this category. Alexei of secondhand time course, Nobel prize literature. Yep. And then another Luther book, Martin Luther renegade in profit. Thrown about here. What's wrong with Luther? He's all he's just remainder all over the place. Traversable controversial guy. But both these Luther books were massive when they came out in hardcover, and now here we have renegade improv, it Lindell Roper from Random House that one is marked down from forty two nine ninety eight and despite having are fantastic sales here in hardcover. I think what happened to this is probably they pushed out the paperback for both of these Luther books sales have been going so strongly in hardcover paperback comes out that immediately, people want the paperback rather than the hard cover and despite the really high and quick sales. The publisher has a lot of hard cover stock that needs to get turned over to somewhere else wants the paperback comes out, and our customers are allowed to kind of take advantage of that, by getting this heart markdown hardcover stock that the publishers trying to they're trying to make room in their warehouses for, for the paperback or new brand new releases Luther. Not having that hard time of it led to the reformation Harker sales. Looking good. So good. In fact, that the publisher had faith in Luther enough to print more copies than upping necessary. Right. Okay. Yes. And then there's the. This new stock of books that we are just in the process of cycling out onto our into our sale sections. These are stock from the Indianapolis Christian theological seminary, which had a fantastic bookstore attached to it for many, many years and believe the bookstore portion of it was closed down late last year or early last year. Sorry, late last fiscal year in our books, and they were looking for a place that the stock could go and still be, you know, shared among people who really value it. So we brought their inventory up here to sell and a lot of it is, you know, older additions of things things I have some yellow pages, some shelf ware, but as you can see lane Pagel's for aid, totem taboo, William James varieties of religious experience. These are prime books that. Still have a big audience. So we were able to bring them in and sell them at sale price, much to the benefit of our customers. Two and it's speaking in misconceptions after noon. But another understandable misconception. Is that the seminary Cobb is, in fact, attached to a seminary, which one point our history, we were, but no longer we still have however notable. Theology section and then world religion section. So these books do have a home here that books like this with the continuing closing most Christian bookstores no longer do one more that I wanted to point out here is a book called an history of the corruptions of Christianity into volumes by Joseph Priestley would definitely sounds like a made up off their religious book. But this is from a so-called publisher called forgotten books, and they do a lot of basically FEC simile reprinting of books that are in the public domain. So as you can see this is more or less, digital scan of a manuscript from many decades ago, not sure when the S's look like Fs it's old enough that, that, that that's happening. And you got that thing it's not even a key on a keyboard anymore. Think coffee stain or fake blood or anything like that was probably amongst blood. Yeah. So these will be a digitally scanned and then printed up with this horrendous cover any any book that you get from forgotten books is going to have this torn kind of manuscript and half leather bound cover with a seal. Really, just pay a graphic designer like ten more bucks to make it better. But as which is this is unsurprising, but they are non-returnable, because they're just printed, as off someone request the book they printed. And it's I mean it's fantastic that these things are out in a valuable in the world. So it's fantastic that these books are made available now into the world. But when we when we do bring them into the store because they're these one off printings of these books in the public domain. We once we buy them, we have them fully pass them onto a customer. So sometimes they. Until there. Yeah. Put it in their back when exactly. Yeah. Just a couple of. So sometimes as with any book, that's on our shelf for a long time. It just needs to find a new home mclearn shelves forgotten until it's forgotten again. Which I did. And we had turned the recorder back on forgot about the exactly. Well, this, this isn't wonderful spot end all these would be forgotten books, if not for booksellers like you, Elaine, thank you. Hear more from the co-op widely regarded as one of the best academic bookstores in the world, including conversations with scholars and writers and varieties of intellectual experience. That is books, you won't hear about anywhere else on open stacks, the seminary caught bookstore podcast available now wherever you download the podcast.
773: The Org Chart Exercise
"The dental for newer podcast. Okay doctor it's time to put down that hand piece. You're listening to the show dedicated to helping dentists get their lives back. It's time to decrease your stress increase your profit ability and regain your passion now introducing your host Dr Mark Costas and welcome to another episode of the dental pure podcast on your host. Dr Mark Costas in today's episode episode weekend episode. We're GONNA be talking about something that I think is very very important and something that I didn't have handled when I had my first six dental practices. And that is is the organizational chart so the bottom line is you want to have the fewest number of people as direct reports reporting directly to you as possible and what I did wrong in the beginning. The early part of my career when I had several practices and about fifty employees was that we had an organizational chart at all and everybody had direct access to me. Now it's not not that I didn't want to be in touch with each one of my team members in that that I didn't have personal connection with each of them. There's just not enough time in the day to the be dealing with everybody's issues While you have bigger issues like perhaps if you are the CEO of your dental practice end the primary provider you've got you've got to be really really cognizant of how you spend your time so you don't necessarily they want to be the person that each team member goes to to verify that they have a day off coming up or you don't necessarily want to be the person that is dealing dealing with conflict between two employees that should be delegated to somebody else down the organizational chart for instance your your Office Manager Manager or Your Front Office lead or your regional manager or your director of operations or your lead hygienic or your clinical director. So so in other words you want to be able to check in with one or two key people as the CEO of your organization but in order to do that you have to correctly. Put your organizational chart art together. And that's what we're going to talk about in this eight minute video slash PODCAST CLIP I hope. He has enjoyed this episode. I hope you get some value from it. Have a great weekend. And we'll talk to you soon. The organizational charts as a CEO. You should strive to have the smallest number of people reporting directly to you as possible. Well no more than one person should fill a role but a person can fill more than one role. Okay so as have all heard the story. When I had my first six dental practices practices? I didn't have an organizational chart seventy people working for us and everybody had direct access to me now. This might be a problem that you guys have already solved in your organization but it is a big problem. If you don't have an organizational chart that that people follow okay so we WanNa make sure that the fewest number of people have direct access to you that mean that you have a closed door policy and if somebody has has a personal problem they want to reflect with you that you're close to it now you're still a human being but when it comes to business and it comes to the practice and they come to people asking for time off or whether or not you know whether or not they can. I don't know whatever the question happens to be. You want it to go it through the proper channels so that you are not inundated with Minutia K.. So if you put the organizational chart together the right way you'll prevent that from happening so you as a CEO should have maybe one or maybe two people that are directly. Oh yeah you have one okay. We have a organizational chart worksheet so one or two direct reports sometimes three you have the clinical director who who would be in charge of all the hygienists the lead hygienists and the associates. And then you have the operations manager or the office manager that is going to be in charge of everybody else. Okay so you have. The Office Leads Front Office backoffice maybe marketing director hygiene okay so anything clinical is going to go through your clinical director and that could be you know in clinical open door policy. Anything related to practice. Management is going. Go through the Operations Manager for me in my practices. It looks a little bit more like this I have. I have a a director of operations who is in charge of director of operations is in charge of the clinical director. WHO's in charge of the regional managers and they're in charge of all the OEM's and it goes all the way down the line? Okay that's that's the way that mine is created one direct person. That's one direct report for me K.. And that's about all I can handle. Okay so can I get a copy of okay so your organizational chart worksheet here as a CEO you should strive to have the smallest number of people that are reporting directly to you know more than one person should fill role but a person can fill more than one role and a person can have more than one direct supervisor from different departments for instance a clinical and administrative straight of Supervisor K. C. here. They'll say wrote okay so we're not going to do this together because we just don't have the time but you guys I want you guys to do all of these exercises on your own list out all of your employees in the organization. Give each employee employees a title. If they don't have title right now give him a title you should have. I know this is going to be politically difficult for a a lot of you guys but you should point lead for each department. You should have a lead back office. You should have a lead hygienist. You should have relieved front office. And then you have an operations manager or an office manager or a director of operations okay so give everybody a title now. The director of operations could potentially also be or the office manager also could be potentially the the front office lead. That's okay. They're allowed to to wear two hats. But what you don't want is to people in the same role you don't want to office managers you don't want to front office office. Leads or back office leads our hygiene leads so somebody can wear more than one hat but each role only has one person it can. I do you guys mind sharing your story this is a great story like grit illustration this they and they and they execute on this so dsm insuring your office assistant manager. Okay It was a Tuesday night. There's a dark story went to win today. Yeah so we had it a hot mess. I don't know if that's a phrase but it was a hot mess with the Organization of office as we as we were growing progressing. It turned into where it's like. Oh this person really does a great job Bob with Managing Front desk so let me have them just manage front desk in. They'll do that. This person's really good about managing the back office are large practice has twenty auditory. So there's a lot of moving parts within five doctors at some point four to five Forty people inside the the building. So it's like okay as office manager in that aspect. It was hard to have those one on ones with everybody so as the company was growing. We started specializing in people's positions. So we started looking at it Going over with Jake in looking looking at a overhead part of it and that did not make the right decision. I we started looking at it where we were having the what we called assistant manager so our org chart went to like staff and then assistant managers and then office manager and the assistant managers ars were responsible for two to three teams and what we found is not only did it affect our overhead but it also has affected the Efficiency Agency of the assistant managers so recently in the past two weeks a lot of reverse engineering on overhead responsibilities We have removed that. And what we've learned is that we in our teams instead of having because we thought about doing okay a lead for hygienist. Ns Lead for front desk lead for this. What we did is we put them all into teams like the whole dot your team? And they're one person is responsible for the whole team eighteen so they are basically the assistant manager teen lead. Whatever position you WANNA call? It is over the whole team. So they're the ones that meet the team in the morning the morning huddle they go over the metrics and then so the office manager has the four direct reports because we have four doctors currently so oh they have the meeting and what we've learned as that. Having the responsibility for the team members they really stepped up in enjoyed the responsibility and they felt more accountable for their team and decrease our overhead with the team and having it more efficient and Really like helped out. I guess because we went through both of those options either having a lead in each department or having one person over the whole dot your team and And we've done both. Both of them have been successful as just an arcade. It was with with having one person for the whole team. It really was all benefit emotionally. Everybody was energized by it. And so we're like two weeks into it and MM It's exciting because I think from a staff members point of view when you get into the dental field you're like oh if I'm an assistant that's it a cop out right like unless us. The office manager leaves and typically office managers around practices. Like unless they leave our which rarely happens. I'm not going to have room for growth so we were able all to grow them with more responsibilities and then as the company grows were able to grow them financially as well to pair up more of their You Know Vision Vision for their life and stuff like that so as a lot of work that we did but yes Great job example of going through that process in identifying A you identify. We assessed you defined executed so good job ethical story. Thank you okay. So so. We're going to designate a lead for each department or we could break up into teams and we drive the ORG chart out. According to the practices internal hierarchy. Okay so make sure sure that every it goes in the. I mean. This isn't going to be a secret you don't I mean you can't have this not be shared with everybody on the team so if you're uncomfortable that having this conversation because Souza's GonNa have feelings hurt that she didn't make team lead. You GotTa get over it you gotta get over. There has to be a hierarchy in. There has to be some sort sort of organization organizational chart and that wraps it up for another episode of the dental podcast. Look forward to reconnecting on the next episode. Thank you so much for joining us today. On the dental preneurs podcast check out true. Dental success dot com for full recaps of every show a schedule Angelov our live events free video tutorials and a whole host of practice building resources.
17. Final Episode: Joe and Michelle talk with ARRL VEC Assistant Manager Amanda Grimaldi, N1NHL
"Welcome to so now watch a biweekly cast the AL the National Association Amateur Radio Join Host. Michelle Pat Node Debbie the three MVP and Jakarta and J Q as The author information support and encouragement for those starting their journey into the world. Amateur radio so now. What is brought to you by? LBJ `electronic LBJ. Electronics provides your automatic antenna tuners and related products for every amateur need. Check them out at LBJ. ELECTRONICS DOT COM asking questions. That's how you get the invite you need to go. From license holder to Ham radio veteran and the first question is so now he podcast listeners. I'm Michelle Patna W three. MVP thanks for joining us for so. Now what a podcast for people we're relatively new to amateur radio and who are excited and curious to discover all that it has to offer here with me is Joe Carshield. Nj One Q and v C assistant manager Amanda Gremaldi an one NHL. Hey Amanda Hi guys how you doing. We're doing pretty good. Thank you for being on the show with us and I'm excited. Thanks for having me. A man does here with us this today to answer questions about AIDS laurels. VC program and Joe's GonNa ask the first question. The first question is going to be. What is the V. E. C. The VCE which stands for volunteer examiner? Coordinators is an organization that's entered into an agreement with the FCC to coordinate the efforts of vs volunteer examiners in preparing examinations essentially we're liaisons to the FCC so when the Volunteer Examiners administer the exams we get the paperwork submit it back to the FCC to get the upgrade of the license Also do more than we do club licensing we do international amateur radio permits we do special event call signs licensed certificates and we supply them Cheerios to the ease in order to administer the exams. Now I have to admit that does sound a little modest but having worked up in a few moons ago. It's a very busy department. There was a lot that you and your fellow. Co Workers do up there in the Arab EC and has visited. It's it's it's a constant workflow which is good the job security And RV's you know they've always they always have the right questions to ask so they keep us busy. We like the questions because if they ask before they do it they get it right right. Yes because this is one thing that has to get done correctly if not there is somebody to answer to I would imagine oh yeah the FCC FCC so in Nineteen eighty-two goldwater worth. Bill is passed by Congress and ultimately signed into law. All by President Ronald Reagan and that law amended the Communications Act of Nineteen thirty four permitting. FCC to accept voluntary very services of licensed Amateur Radio Operators on July twenty first nineteen eighty-four the FCC errol sign a memo of agreement memorandum of agreements to put this program into play if I recall when the program was first instituted and actually quote quote unquote. Advertising curious. T. There was a picture of the era iffy. See Map and there was a staffer standing in front of it and that picture was taken up stairs. Yes that was in T- while it wasn't nineteen eighty-four I imagine was under July October. Cuba's T- some of our listeners. Are Longtime remember may remember that on the first examination was held on September. Second Nineteen eighty-four September second was that done purposely because it's high rooms birthday no way. I didn't know that See that that was okay. So for the sake of argument we will say that the I was on September. Second in honor of Hiram Percy maximum birthday perfect yeah they're one of the covers a Q. S. T. shows I I forget who it was. But they're standing in front of the map and I believe it shows the original right after the program was instituted. The the tensions administered by the Aero. Vc Okay you'll see. She's looking up at the map on the left side boop night. That so Amanda Amando. What's the difference between a V. C. and A. V. E. V. E. V. say? I'm sorry those fourteen of US actually out there and the FCC will not allow oh any any other organization to become a VC. Fourteen is sufficient. We coordinate the exams. We coordinate the V.. Ease again we supply them. I'm with information and supplies. And then we do the we transmit the information to the FCC the ease which are extremely important to czar program are actually the ones out there in the field. Administering the exams and they're also a trove of information for new applicants and people upgrading. So there's a different so francis again fourteen. ABC's and there's thirty thousand vehicles for accredited with errol anyways. That doesn't include the thirteen other. BBC's that's a lot but it is it is popular. What can we say? Yeah we have about seventy four percent of the market share loss thirteen other V.. ABC's have twenty six percent while others twenty six percent. What are the minimum requirements to become a v. e.? And how long did the credentials last the other errol. Lv See through its V. Program and Mr Seventy four percent of all. US Amateur Radio License exams here and overseas actually the other twenty six six percent fall under the other thirteen B. C's you need to be a general class. LICENSEE are higher and be at least eighteen years old a. v. e. cannot be a person who's amateur license percents has ever been revoked or suspended and that's pearly. FCC THAT'S NFC rule and how long do the credentials last the last the you stand monetize your actual amateur radio license so it will expire. I mean if you if your license expires in a year and and you just get accredited today. Your accreditation is going to also expire New Year. But you don't have to do much to get it to get renewed to do much. Normally we send automatically send people stickers. They're active in testing. But even if for some reason you don't get the stickers just give us a call and we'll get you renewed send you stickers to put on your badge at the expiration date now that does pose an interesting question what if an individual becomes a v e Eh but never tests. They just did it because they want to say. I'm a V. E. is that is there some minimum number of tests. It's a via has to administer we like them to do at least one year If you you don't participate in five years we'll put you on an inactive status which doesn't mean your accreditation revoked or expired cancelled and whatnot. It just means that you're inactive and if you want to get back into it give us a call If it's five years or more we have you do another V. E. APP if if it's ten years or more we have you do the oak view and Avi application again so Amanda. How is the AWRO? The session conducted well the the first step the vs will register most of the registered their exams sessions with us. So we put it up on. The website to advertise is the date and the time on location in any requirements that the vs may have for the Candidates that registration will also include Kood. Whether or not the examiners need them materials some vs that are not feel stock or cost exams every time they register. I'm sorry request exam materials. Every time time they register an exam date Once we get it online the candidates will contact vs just to get more information regarding being the test the examination Once they arrive they fill out certain paperwork that again we provide to the vs and and from there they take the exam once they're done with the exam the vs three vs an FCC ruled at three vis grade the exam and if they pass they have the option to go up to the next level. If they want free of charge you can take take each exam. One time for the fifteen gene dollar fee so Amanda you mentioned field stocked as opposed to just sending out of materials. Is there a distinction between the two. Yes field feels all-stock examiners were will be marked off in our system as being field sucks so when we get new exams then every four years they automatically get uh or any any new material they automatically get updated material so we send them a big box of supplies that lasts for about a year and they hold onto it so they can do on demand testing and proper exams whenever they want. If you're not field stock we'll send you materials every time you have an exam and you send all the unused materials back to us and now a word from our sponsor takeout. LBJ's new balance and UN's the are you nine to one UNIN matches confed long wire antennas Toco ex and the are you one to one choke helps keep our F. You're shack all L. D. G. Balance and UN's are rated traded to two hundred watts. Pep and cover from one. To thirty megahertz for all your H F matching needs L. D. G. is a family owned and operated company dedicated to bringing advanced quality products to the amateur market. Our focus is on anticipating our customers needs and providing them with world class support art. Don't forget L.. digi products carry a two year. Warranty that is fully transferable. When you sell it support is only a phone call or email away? We're always here to help you. L. D. G. Electronics everywhere. You look. There's an L D G welcome back to so now. What so so? I gather field stock. These are for like the the large V teams. I mean these large clubs that have them every month essentially. Yeah that's exactly and in order to be second. Stay field sack you have to. I'm sorry to become feels like you have to have four exams. Scheduled is that per month. No just within the year. Oh Okay and you have to have participated in for exams previously. There's no no minimum number of tests. So in other words a field stocked. The team can have one impromptu individual. Come in Yeah Oh you mean the amount of people that they serve is exactly yes so no no because they have really no control for all of that so as long as they hold the session they get credit for holding a session. Even if it's one person or it's ten people now. Are they still required to advertise a session regardless no the FCC no longer requires them to advertise their exam. Okay okay so if someone here's a hypothetical summons been studying. They contacted us and say you know I've been self studying. As opposed to say being part of a club they sell studied. nece- I really WANNA take an exam so they contact us. We say okay well based upon your location. There is a a the team team located near you now that individual contact that team say. I'm ready to take an exam can you please. He's administer it yeah they can a lot of times. There's a lot of sessions listed online within your location. Don't we'll get wrong sometimes. There's you live out in the middle of nowhere. There's nothing and that's usually when they would call a team it'd be like hey. There's nothing listed for my area. Can you help me get this done but for the impromptu sessions it's you could walk into a coffee shop notice that there's an amateur radio clubs and they're having a meeting walk up to and say. Hey I I WANNA take my tech exam. You've got the stuff. As long as they have the stuff they can give the exam. Okay that makes life easier because I remember again some moons ago. The requirements were a little more strict in terms of scheduling advertising when the test session was to be be and there was there a minimum. was there ever minimum number of sessions required or I should excuse me number of tests that had to be administered because I don't believe there was a requirement for that. There was a requirement to have at publicly advertised. Okay cool now. We're GONNA go into the part that everyone loves. That is the test itself The tests the tests so the first and foremost is because we we get this question. Who comes up with these questions? Some of these questions of weird and I have to make make mention and some of our listeners. Who have been licensed for awhile can probably relate to this that at a time when we had to sit in from the FCC and take the exam which was compiled by the SEC? This is like before the the V. E. Program existed some questions were double negatives. I dare say that there was some triple negatives. What can you not do if you're not doing this? Not properly sort of out of the people this was these were some of these. These questions were were asked And you sit there. Scratching has like okay. Well does that mean I could not do it if I did. Do it. Not like this anyway. Spent more time trying to. I forgot the question. That's you know it's like it just how to build a Dipoto so who actually decides creates these questions for the teams to us. It's the QVC. The question Paul Committee which is which comes under the NCAA see the national conference of volunteer examiner coordinators which is a part of home of the question. Poll Committee has five members that represent five different. VC's there's Arul w five anchorage ARC VC West cars and Clark and they take all year to come up. They put a lot of work into these question. Polls and so the question pools it's one regardless of the VC. The question pool is the question pool wall so in other words. If you're going to say to a five why or an Arrow the e test session you can expect that especially been studying. Study our a study guide that the questions will be the same regardless of what the SEC that you're using correct they all the BBC's that one questionable questionable that exams you get so you can go to w five is session and not necessarily get the same exam as you get era they the VC's have the right to make their own exams out of that one question pull and actually the examiners themselves vis can make their own exams if they wanted to they have to do it in the right format that is set by the FCC but they they can do it. It's I mean I wouldn't advise it because again the question put so how much work and to come up with these questions and then creating they again they each don exams. But there's a lot of work that goes into that as well so take advantage of it and so the requirements would be say the the number of questions in other words A. V. E. team or even a VC necessarily surly cannot say. Well you know what we're going to give me a break this month and we're going to ask you ten questions on the extra. No no they each have to have the same amount of questions and they have to have the same amount of questions from each sub element and that's the structure I was talking about the. FCC came up with so remember off the top of my head. How many have to come from each southbound because it does vary between each element within the pool but it is a specific amount and sub elements that technical non technical rules and regulation? And actually all that stuff that you expect to see on test session right so a little history here Yes I've been licensed for a few years and prior to the creation of the program and I mean just in general before the creation of the program and some of our listeners. May they relate to this if you want to to take an amateur radio license exam aside from the novice because normally if you took the novice which is the first class of license you're probably member of a club and you can have someone in your club administered the novice class license exam to you but if you wanted to go for tech general events or extra you had to either drive up to NFC office near you or are you can wait if they came down to your area now here in Connecticut for times on the year the FCC would come down to. What was the old naval reserve here here in Hartford Connecticut not too far from brainerd road which by the way is not too far from Maxim road which is named after our founder and I president harm pursue maximum in part because the original w wanted hugh free station which was located there? So there's actually a lot of history in Hartford. But any digress. So I'm sure if you were down in. DC was probably interim DC or something like that but in their faces. It's like Oh there's always next time. Yeah it's like what Field Day. There's always next year. There's always next time and you can take the exam. You can take the exam until you're blue in the face at one of the session and I know a lot of Vs Promote that. Not only that but if they pass I think I mentioned earlier if you pass you can take the next level for free now. If you do that poses entering question then turnabout Gordon Michelle if you do failings say you go in there for a general and you miss it by two questions. They're going to if you want. They can administer another exam but it would not be the same test session. I mean it wouldn't be the same test itself it would be. It would be the general but it'd be a different version currency. Yeah there's five versions so and if the field stacked examiners have all five on hands non-fuel else axiom arrays may not necessarily have the They may have two versions of it. So I said you could take it till you're blue in the face but you'd have to keep taking a different version. And the examiners have access to our exam make or software or software that generates exams automatically for them so if they if they could get the computer earn predominantly Fangio. You could take until you pass it. You just get that to do that to question now. So another interesting point alphabet is like you said if you're going to take a general and you fail you can take extra exam and you can pass if you pass the extra so you studied harder for the extra because it's a it's a longer exam harder material so you pass the general. I'm sorry you fail the general you could Take Action Pass S. and get credit for it and you have that credit for a whole year so any point in time within that year thirty sixty five days you can go back. Take the general and you'll get your extra really but on that note you've passed the extra but that does not mean you have extra for privileges because you do not have the general correct correct you would have to you. Just have the credit for it. So you'd have to bring your CSI and that shows you have the extra credit to examine where you're GonNa take your general and let you pass the general they'll give you the CSEE saying you earned extra and then you'll get your extra license and what what the CSI Stanford one. More time. I I mentioned as you know what I did. Not say what. It stood for certificate of successful completion of examination so to clarify. Because that's a confusing. I feel like a wet and circles with the failing. The general passing extra. You can take the exams in any order that you want they build on each other so you have to like I said you have to pass the general before you get the extra license but you can take them any orders that make sense yes it does so what I did not know that that's awesome so Michelle. You could take the extra line. Get that under your belt and then go and study for your general if necessary sir. That's pretty awesome. Yeah but gained just realizing you don't have the extra privileges right right. You have a whole year to pass the general test to get the extra. Yep Yep Okay and if you were previously licensed as a general advanced are extra class lasts you have proof of that in your license does attack. You'll get that credit back so generals and advanced class licenses who were previously licensed has general events clubs license. He's will get general credit and if you were previously an extra you'll get extra credit as long as you're either currently a technician China or you take and pass these technician now that does and some are newly licensed. They may not realize there was a time when you there was obviously five classes and we have the novice technician general events and extra and we had something called novice enhancement that took place in March of nineteen eighteen. Eighty seven and nowadays if you can prove to A. V. E. C.. Or you go to the taste session that you were licensed as say a technician prior to March of Nineteen eighty-seven March twenty first March. Twenty first. That's an important day folks March twenty first nineteen seven. If you can prove that you had at least the technician and you go into A. Va Session you. Do not have to take take the general because at that time the tech general was the same test. The only difference was the code requirement. Correct and you can use something something as simple as a page from an old call book so if you needed to prove that you are licensed prior to March twenty first nineteen eighty-seven you would just there are resources available to do that Call books the Okabe Books. If there are something like that you can take a photocopy of that and bring into a session and say yes. I held a technician class license prior to March twenty nine hundred seven. But you still have to be licensed currently though correct correct you in order to get the automatic upgrade. Yes but you can come in with that credit. Take impasse the tech exam. And then you'll get get your general because I did that for my father because we had both gone for our tech general and the only difference between this is that I took the thirteen words a minute so I got my general and he maintained technician but after this program was initiated. I essentially supplied him with proof that he had his technician prior to March two thousand nine hundred eighty seven. He went to a local. Va Session and they were able able to give him his general class. So Amanda how can someone get involved and becoming the E. Well they can go on our website and they can either download the volunteer examiner manual for free or they can buy in the book form through our Publications Department for ten dollars Once they go through the book we will want to fill out our open book review which is also on our website as well as V application. And really you know suggest. People do especially new operators as it gets them involved in amateur community you know they got to know people and they just get to see how exciting it is and again. We're talking about the ease before being so excited that there are people pass. I just think that's something that everyone should experience. If you know you really into the hobby you you will. You'll love it. It's it's a form of giving back correct. Yep and is yes and I just want to thank all of our the ease out in the field because they really are incredible and they do a lot of work. So thank you very much to all the vs all the volunteers out there because we could not do some of our jobs without without their help absolutely. Wow we'll thanks for being on the show. Thank you for having me guys welcome. Thank you very much. That was awesome. Thanks for listening to So now what and we would like to tell you that this is our last podcast. As many of you probably read that The PODCAST is being cancelled. And we're taking everything in a new direction so we like to thank everyone who written called who Support US during this time and we thank you very much for the questions in. We hope that we're able to get some good information and some good tips and and You know just stay tuned to our new podcasts and again if you always have any questions always feel free just to email us call plus stop conventions and so on and No we'll have a little chat. We had a lot of fun making this for you guys and we hope you enjoy our new podcasts broadcasts. We did have fun. We did a lot of fun so It was good. But you know Mike with Dory says we'll just keep keep swimming. Just keep swimming seventy. Three's so now. What is the production of the eight of the National Association station for Amateur Radio and is sponsored by LBJ electronics LBJ electrons provide stay the automatic antenna tuners and related products for every amateur need check Komo at LBJ electronics dot com for more information on amateur radio or the eatable or visit us on the web at www dot a. r. l. dot? Org You can also find us on facebook twitter instagram and Lincoln by searching for a are if you have a question or comment for job shall show email us at so now what at Awro dot org or use the form on our website www dot a. r. l. dot org jeep forward slash so now on. This program is copyright of the eight of our L.. Any unauthorized redistribution rebroadcast is prohibited. If you like Michael you've heard please subscribe to so now at Blueberry Dot Com apple podcasts stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Serena Jackson. Casey one jammed w administrative manager Redo sport at the end of our out. Thanks for listening.
The best of The Big Interview: Darina Allen
"UBS has over nine hundred investment analysts over one hundred different countries over nine hundred of the sharp moins freshest thinkers in the world of finance. Today find out how we can help you contact us at. UBS DOT DOT COM. Hello and welcome to a special edition of the globalist. I'm Ben Rislan over the festive season. Where looking back? At some the best interviews we did hear on monocle. Twenty four the big interview Brew Fascinating Live Stories of some of the most influential people in the world of art and culture. GOTCHA business politics and design today. We listen back to the chef derina Ellen now does the term for everything out. This isn't that farm to fork walk and farm to face and sort of zero waste and all of that. Well you know you just didn't waste that's for sure you didn't waste so every single scrap was he'd not of course because we. We grew things in the kitchen garden as well. If you grow something yourself I can tell you you. Use every single scrap of it for well over three decades arena. Allen has been tempting would-be chefs Chaffetz and curious food folk from around the world to a single bucolic corner of East Coke in hand native Ireland. The law her world famous cookery school Bali Malu and her mission to fundamentally change our relationship with food farming and the land for the better under the tutelage of her late mother-in-law the pioneering chef Myrtle Alan to Rena has gone on to become the face voice and Lee Boundless Energy behind a quiet culinary revolution. She's penned nineteen cookbooks made countless TV v shows and stood the course of Irish international cookery away from trickery fasten foam and towards farm fresh ingredients time on a techniques and sensible farming practices actresses over the decent dollop of common sense and an infectious mix of urgency and energy at seventy one. Her enthusiasm is undimmed and she's got ideas and answers onces plenty. I'm Josh Bennett. And I'm pleased to say that Doreen Alan joined me in London here for the big interview. Aw you've made rather fabulous career in food a wonderful cookery school incredible number of cookbooks. But I'd like you to Kostia mind back to leash to the Midlands of Ireland in the fifties and sixties. I'm to the breakfast tables or dining will use. What would you have been eating going up this title my goodness well? I'm the nine. Children are typical big Irish family of that time and I lived in this tiny country village and I was so fortunate Sir my mother loved to Cook and she cooked every day and she made celebrate almost every day of her life almost so we had a kitchen garden. We had a house is cows so we drank rule milk and rear chickens for the house so that was my norm. So I suppose if you asked me about breakfast would have been generally a big bowl of porridge. Giora something particularly in the winter and then we went to school down to the bottom of the village. I hadn't realized actually onto relatively recently. How important it was that? Mommy had got permission. I come home for lunch. And so we'd run up the head really fast and when we came into the kitchen the smell of some lovely stew or something bubbling on on the stove and then we'd respect down to as much playtime as possible but then in the winter she'd make things like steam pudding and the whole subliminal similar message was the importance of food. Our food was. Our medicine keeps getting colds. And flus and things in the winter and that all the stock would be the importance of love putting energy and whatever source you could into the food on the table and it sounds like an idyllic time but these were rather straitened times in Ireland in some way. was there a sense of having to do a lot with a little to make the most of these kind of raw ingredients or was it a time of of plenty of in a way I never felt because we were almost self sufficient and my father actually was a village merchant and otherwise there was one shop in the village which is owned by my grandfather. My father so in other words my family now you would call them entrepreneurs Pinera's of course they just provided for all the needs of the village and if so we'd have biscuits and various other things as well but I do remember of course none from my mother how to use up every scrap so this in what's now there's a term for everything out isn't farm to fork and and farm to face and sort of zero waste and all of that. Well well you just didn't waste that's for sure you didn't waste so every single scrap proceeded up and of course because we grew things in the kitchen garden as well. If you grow something yourself in tell you you use every single scrap of it so I learned how to make delicious things out of leftovers and so on. We'll come to your your kind of achievements over time and basically equipping generation or two or three of Irish chefs with your philosophy on food on life but while we're kind of dwelling in the past I can't really imagine you ever lacking confidence whoever not knowing what you wanted to do. So tell me about the underwriter who went off to Dublin to study hotel management. What was in your head? Well I think actually do something back to my family business grossly and all of that as a child because running out and I would serve and pull a pint or whatever so I think think that must have given me some of the disorder social skills I better was hoping supercautious but anyway my father in fact item. We were fourteen when I was fourteen. So basically mommy brought us all up. So I was sent as my sister's where to boarding school to the Dominican nuns in wicklow and this was in the early sixties now and they were always considered and still are to be very visionary non so at that time most people would have stayed at home and they got married and looked after the family and all of that but my nuns were encouraging us girls to have a proper career do the sciences architecture medicine whatever and of course all I want to do is to cook or to garden. They were the only two things on you. Anything about you see. Did you ever countenance another career really. DID ANYTHING SLIP into your mind is really I mean. My friends did law nothing but this was the only thing I knew anything about now. I love cooking because it was always going on around us at home in our kitchen. By the time you'd tidied up for one meal it was time to to start another and we always sat down around the kitchen table. which I still think is so important to hang onto because even if you're only arguing arguing you're keeping the lines of communication open so anyway? When I persisted that I still wanted to cook? They encouraged me to do other hotel management or degree in horticulture so I opted for hotel management. That the end of that you know I just wanted to still want to cook but remember long before you were born. Men were chefs and women could run teashops or something to keep out of mischief. Generally it's high couldn't get in and you never know in your life what's tiny thing that sometimes can change the course of the rest of your life and in my case it was meeting one of the senior lecturers in the car door one day and at that stage virtually everybody in my class. Had the ready got a job. You start off by being an assistant manager in one of the top hotels and you'd have a little uniform and a badge and but I was desperate to learn more about fresh hubs and I had a fixation about making homemade ice cream and souffles and she told me I was too fussy but she said to me funny the other night I was having dinner with friends and they were talking okay by this woman down in Cork who seems to have opened a restaurant in her own house right heart in a farm in the middle of the country and she writes the menu every day. They're near the seas. See so depending on what fish comes in for the boats nuttal harbor near them and do what's in their garden and all that and they have a Jersey hard so they make homemade ice cream and they have their own pigs and they have a walled garden with fresh herbs. I just couldn't believe it was like ticking. All the boxes and I said Oh that sounds absolutely perfect and she couldn't remember the woman's name so she said lead with me. I'll ask my friend. She came back with a piece of paper. A few days later percents. My Hand said this is the name of the woman and of course the name on a a piece of paper was Myrtle Allen who became my mother-in-law so I became a member of the family by the simple expedient of marrying the boss's son so to the rest is as has he might say history. It's amazing that intervention of what could have been an assistant manager in the show but rather rural rather different way. I think you're right to contention to the fact that while the practices that you are preaching now a broadly popular at the time it would have been seen as rather unusual here. But I'll tell you what I'm sadly away. Not Enough has changed in that direction because really the message not even subliminal message nowadays. Is that the skills that are really important are the yeah condemning skills and that the practical skills of much lesser importance and this is a big mistake. My goodness we've latte now. Two generations at least out of our houses houses and out of our schools without equipping them with the basic life skills to feed themselves properly or feeding right into the hands of the multinational food companies. We've handed over complete control over the most important thing in our lives really are food to the supermarkets and it's not their responsibility. Our health is not their responsibility so basically I feel really failing in our juicy of care to our children and the next generation by NAS equipping them with the basic practical skills to make make a little meal for themselves on. I could really do was actually scrambled eggs or whatever you know without basic skill. I've had a really interesting life if I now have what I absolutely love I. It's actually a privilege to be able to pass on cooking skills to the next generation. I mean I could be teaching Algebra Ajami trae or something and of course it's hugely important but you counties Affleck and Matt spoke and and yet the look on. Somebody's face when you teach them how to make Hello Brad or a super it actually touches their lives at something. They're going to use every day so I feel fortunate that I've found something that I totally love doing. And feel like jumping bed still every day at seventy one years of age does Jabaar quite disastrous. I used to years ago but still well. I think your your very humble boulevard generous to attribute that to look but obviously the great mouth Lila near mother-in-law this woman that taught you so much soil Sunday new or read something in that letter. How did that relationship relationship develop you arrive? And she was welcoming and claim that everything was perfect. Well for the moment I came to me. Actually I loved. It and myrtle was in the kitchen all the time at that stage and she basically reinforced on my mother's values and actually attell school. Of course it was excellent hotels good but we were being taught how to do things must officiously and how to use processed foods and things that are already prepared nothing but again another term for this nowadays everything thing of course was done from scratch and the menu was written depending on what was best and most beautiful that Dan was all about providing a wonderful experience for the guests so that Sorta Solo. I mean how fortunate was either parts crossed in life. I mean I know not. Everybody says that about the she was always says Portland. I talk to do television. Write books and everything and you see she at that. STAGE MARKLE had no training whatsoever. She just opened in with Bali. Milou house was the first I country House hotel probably in the British isles actually so was considered to be super crazy to open a restaurant miles out of the city. I mean I was initially initially cooking side by side with her and I was like a sponge soaked up everything she said. It was excited by learning and learning and ninety attorney all the time and and I think a lot of people would look at your career. And we'll be very interested where the impetus to start the famous now famous. Parliamentary cookery school came from the life. Sounds fairly comfortable. You've met Tim. You're living in a lovely place. Why would you put yourself through the trouble of doing what your parents did as an entrepreneurs and starting your own business? How did that come about well? It all say the Mucus School was born out of desperation and with the cookie school. Then I'd been cooking kitchen and then we had four children and we were in horticulture. My husband had taken over the horticultural unit that his father had started and then in the late seventies early eighties for us in Ireland. There was the perfect storm really. There was another the big recession. There was the oil crisis and there was twenty five percent inflation. We were five acres of greenhouses. That really needed an investment which we absolutely didn't taveres panelists young married couple and we'd gone into the EU. The supermarkets had come on stream and the whole cheap food policy had kicked in it flooded the market and began to think that cheap food was there rice really so instead of getting a bit more fear abuse for projects every year you got less and so we had five acres used to grow five tomatoes. We had a big mushroom farm. Sixty five acres of apple trees so at this was a big horticulture operation going from being very profitable to initially almost losing the roof over our heads with these four small children. It was really panicked time than I remember we used to sell our produce into the wholesalers beautiful project we had greater it. was you know this was not a mickey mouse operation. And then somebody said Oh forget about the wholesalers. The supermarkets are the thing of the future and so we were thrilled to bits. We got a a contract to sell apples into one of the big supermarket. Chains still very successful in Ireland. And somehow or other you never seem to be paid quite what they said Ed and there was always this thing of sending back things could find one little apple with Bruce nurse something and then I remember on one day. We have a lovely little moment every day where I would get the kids. After school early my husband would be up early. Going to talk with the produce. And then he'd come back from Cork and I'd kids who have gone to school. We'd have breakfast together. Lovely little quiet moment and I also remember one day. This was another seminal moment when he came into the kitchen door and he said. I don't care if I have to crawl on my knees or never doing that again. We have half to find a different way to earn a living and that is a very long answer to the question. You asked me about five minutes about how to the school come about so then we we have to. I mean remember now and I was born in school. I have no ambition what so ever I didn't want to be a career. Woman like my lovely Dominican nuns wanted me to be. I just wanted to find a nice nice chap preferably with some money that I could have a few cute little kids and paint my nails and go on picnics. So I had no intention of me thinks you never been happy with that anyway. The how did how did you end up in front of the bank manager school so we had to try and think about what talents have we wash resources have we. We have one hundred hundred Acre organic farm so we converted some farm buildings into a little cooking school opened in September. Nineteen eighty-three but you mentioned the back manager. Back to the big recession are under that time. Same kind of conversation now. This is the time as well when women didn't go into the Mike Manager in general about it we somehow our other worked out that we need eighteen thousand a member to convert and a friend of ours who was an economist. He said to me you can't go into back manager with us on the back of an envelope. You've got to you know but I learned off what to say and then I borrowed a little suit and made an appointment to the bank manager in an inner went to him and told him about this. Fantastic stick idea. I had to actually start a cooking school in farm buildings and Channa carrying. Can you believe that though. Oh Yeah I was sure I was not August is a brilliant thing it because you know your back is to the water has to work. He was so nice every setback manager so dreadful and he was so nicely sat back in his chair and he listened and the I remember him giving me tea and biscuits people say Bagman. Just never give him biscuits so and then he said at the end now I would know what this meant nowadays but He said to me at the end. Oh that sounds really fascinating. I discussed with my colleagues well. I would have known that. That's no but a week later letter K.. was saying and I wish that letter because it was more or last year. We need to save you from yourself. I know basically the answer and then I remember my father in law saying to me. Leave with me talk tomorrow but years later I about twenty years later. I told me he came into the cookers. No he didn't but I met him at something rather and after drinks party I said T- Goldmember me to remember me coming into asking you for money. They said Oh. Wow I was so taken in. I was sure you thought it was a great idea. Yeah you know I said well what were you thinking said. Look once you started. You're so enthusiastic about the whole thing. I thought I mostly sit back and I said I bet you're sorry now as far as a lot of buddy Lee since but anyway we got started in September nine hundred eighty three and then I remember my parents and all saying to me. We think you should call it ballymena cookies so so of course that was incredible compliment to me that they believed in me and also I felt a huge sense of responsibility to really deliver on the expectation that that name generated and if we flash forward I mean people wouldn't have to look far to see the success all of the amazing graduates. What's that come through the school? All of the things that you've taught them not to mention as you said your TV shows your books sold in the hundreds of thousands of copies. But I had the good fortune June two years ago. I believe to come to me to a story for Monocle magazine and you told me something curious. I'd like to ask you about the first recipe. Teach students is a recipe for soil. Clothes it's actually the first recipe I give them as how to make compost where you're very very close. So basically the schooling operates a whole year round but we do three months certificate courses on the first day. The first one the first thing I do is I introduce them to the gardeners in the far manager. And maybe I'll have a bunch of carrots or something and I say to them look at these lovely. Carrots took Eileen three months to grow these carrots three months. And don't you dare boy the hell out of them and you got into the kitchen and then we go out into the fruit garden and Eileen will have a field borrow full of soil there. Actually its humus in fact and they stand around on me and a big semicircle wondering what's coming to underline the feeling a little awkward and I just run my hands through the soil and I say to them remember. This is where it all starts. It's in the good earth in the soil and they're looking at me and thinking. Oh my God. We'll say about this in the brochure. Another thinking some aged hippie on a mission or something but I have to shock them out of thinking that food is just something that comes wrapped in plastic offer supermarket shelf. I need them to think about but how it's produced where it comes from the feed for the animals. The breed the the variety center all the better. If I can find a futile worms comes in this wheelbarrow full of soil. But then it's even more interesting for me. I think because while in that wheelbarrow has come from the compost heap and it's now at the final stages stages of compost which is called Humus when knife comes back into it and that actually has been made from the scraps from the morning's cooking that have gone onto the compost compost. It's broken down and life is come back into it and that is what we feed the soil with. I mean if I come back another time I want to be a soil scientist. 'cause there's so so much going on because our health everything comes in the soil but close then one of the many wonderful quote some lady Eve Bowel far and I say to them. Remember the health of the soil will the health of the plant health at the animal and the health of the human are all one and indivisible. So we're totally dependent on that four or five inches this of soil around the world for our very existence. Farmers are really worried about the diminishing fertility of the soil because we've wrecked the soil by very intensive intensive monoculture over the years and we can't go on with business as usual we simply have to go back and as a farmer. I feel a strong responsibility. That whatever grow and we have we sell it Lavar. Excess Produce Smart. It'll farm shop on the farm farmers markets and I just feel a strong responsibility that I can look somebody straight in the eye and know that that food is going to nourish them rather than make them ill. which is what's happening with a lot of food nowadays and during a you've been proved writer at the time? I mean these are opinions. That are slowly working their way into the mass media their opinions that people are slowly beginning to agree with that. You have held this idea for a longer time. How how does it mean to convince people to even get to this point in the debate where people countenance the health of the soil? There's a lot of chat about the fertility the soil. Now because I think people are really beginning uncut just beginning but realized the connection between fertile soil and good health. Also there's been a northbound work done on the link between the health of our got patio and both are mental and physical health. And that's when you think of it. It's like so obvious at the school. Were very lucky. We have a little dairy herds. It's we also have role milk for people if they want to drink it but we notice this is sort of anecdotal. Because I've watched this over thirty years the difference in people's energy level and they're scared and so on when they're with us for three months but now this is scientifically proven and also the other interesting thing that's happening actually. We're is for the last five six seven courses we've had at least one doctor sometimes to an on this course of the moment we have three doctors on the twelve week statistic cooking course these are doctors who come they all come for the same reason they tell me that basically they fear because the medical training. There's no training in Nutrition Patricia. Even still elder a lot of the young doctors are now demanding that they're given the proper information so they can answer their patients queries properly. He and so many of the patients presenting with conditions. That can be at least hot and often cured by a change of Diet but one of the problems is. Where'd you get this nutrient dense food? A lot of people don't have time to buy directly from farmers but there are other ways of alternative routes tomorrow's retail roots tomorrow developing over. Here you have farm drop and we have neighbor food and onto you can buy all nine and then the farmers get eighty percent of the price which is fantastic so many farmers not being. I paid enough any longer to produce nourishing wholesome food which is a real problem. And that's as opposed to us was between twenty five and thirty percent of the retail price. If it's is going to a supermarket so that's important and also I'm always encouraging people to try to grow something themselves again and you mentioned the number of doctors that have gone on the course. I think you're in a very unique position both as a commentator an expert on the food industry someone who knows how to farm tool see people's changing attitudes to food the different types types of people that pop up on the course. The bankers on Sabbatical of their people. Want to start a Food Jehovah. They're voyeurs just want to cook better for their family. What kind of person as as we have well on the present course there eleven nationalities but we have people from people starting off knowing they want to be ships? There could be a couple of gap year people. We get refugees in the the city of London and dentists everything. We haven't had an astronaut yet but everybody needs to be able to cook. It doesn't matter what you do. It's one of the easiest ways to win friends friends and influence people. You can get a job any other world and and your philosophies obviously evolved over time. I don't think it's cheeky to ask what you've learned from the students over the time as well. They keep teaching yes absolutely. They do. And because of students from India Sri Lanka from Japan China Everywhere oftentimes they ask. Can they cooked me something so lots. What's of my recipes? That are in cookbooks and thing have somebody's name on them but in the end I just want to go back again to talk about my mother. Myrtle who was such. She had no idea idea that she was such a maverick. She didn't realize that what she was doing. She was so much ahead of our time and all the values that I'm talking about now and have built on or the hard innate values basically remember she died last year at the age of ninety four after an extraordinary life and she was. I think really almost to the end. Almost unaware of the impact shootout not just only an Ireland and the UK but also globally. And I remember somebody interviewing are saying well. Marley were so much ahead of time. You're such a pioneer. And she said Oh well if you live long enough they come round to you in the end it was like this is all come full circle and you're funny thing somebody said to me recently. Doesn't America now. The the new big thing is to eat real food low of about for the full circle during a as we've talked about a little bit already. You were one of the first people to get up on your soapbox and talk about these important issues of bio diversity of freshness of teaching people and about the health benefits of food. There is another conversation going on about food being framed as being slightly more unhealthy. I'm talking of course about milk alternatives. I'm talking about veganism until people wanting tweet no meat less than better meet. Where do you stand on that kind of cultural shift armed goddess me? There's so much misinformation out there. As far as I can see there's the sort of desperation and huge confusion people trying to make some kind of sense of all the different kinds of advice one. We could eat no beef. The next week cease ace plenty of beef all so much of an emphasis on the plant based Diet now but the real problem is the whole cheap food policy. There's no I know such thing as cheap food in health terms and socioeconomic towns. It's a complete an absolute disaster. We have to pay the farmers enough to actually produce use wholesome nourishing food what's happening now and even in Ireland and there was a european-wide survey there a couple of months ago and so in Ireland Forty six point nine percent of all the food that's born supermarkets is ultra processed food. We are destined to be the most obese country in Europe by twenty thirty so we are art in a super mega crisis. In all of our countries are held service can't cope and they won't be able to cope until somehow a huge amount onto money is spent on getting the basic message across that we need to eat real food. People are not imagining they. Food intolerances the allergies. That might be at tiny better that in but in general people are not imagining that they feel bloated or rashes or whatever after the very squishy squishy slides pan or something and actually it's interesting. I was running the cooking school for three years when this girl from the north of Ireland was called to the phone. She said she'd love to do the three month. Course I but there was a problem. She was a Syriac. I was running the school for three years and I had to Oscar or to see the act was so fast forward to now between I suppose a quarter and a third of all students will say they have some kind of intolerance or if their CD actor acidic diseases lifelong but now by the end of the twelve twelve weeks. I guarantee you that nobody will still be dairy free or have at Luton intolerance or whatever because they're leasing forty-eight hour fermented said Sour Dough bread they have the choice to drink raw milk. They have organic food but basically they're itching completely different kinds of food and they connaught how not get over how different they feel. And so they're big mission when the US is to Lincoln with local farmer too if they're starting a business to try and develop a network network of small producers to buy from around them and then now if you could for coffee he got this big long spiel about you want soya milk coconut milk. I don't know the whole long thing thing because just as my years the whole thing and say I just want whole milk please none of your low fat skinny anything just the real deal. So that's what we need but it's so hard hard for people to find it and you know people are going around feeling properly on well a lot of the time and you see everybody's so busy it's not like you can just swing by a farmer's market in the middle of the day or something in this surreal dilemma and as I flash forward to island today and I think it's in no small part. Thanks to a your influence. I'm aware of a good number of restaurants. Cafes Bakeries started by alumni of your fine school but there is a bit of a food moment happening in Ireland. At the minute doesn't that there was a bit of an upwelling of confidence and of great food in Dublin and far beyond definitely is but at this school to start in one thousand nine hundred eighty we want to be having some freshmen. But of course there are many many different influences but here we've got lots and lots of mission starred restaurants in Cook County alone we. We have four missions addressed but in a way the kind of food that I teach school though is not you know. Hasn't lots of tools and bows and smarties on top no skid marks on plates or foams or whatever it's my right as it's more simple cooking the food very simply but Armand is no longer just the land of corned beef and cabbage with all over the country in the pubs and the little hotels and grasses and BNB's in restaurants you can find fantastic food. Dublin Cork Galway anywhere. And of course we're so blessed by nature in Ireland. We have a long growing season long coastline. So basically we're very favored by nature to produce really good quality. Does she projects and then cook or chef. Tell you it's all about the projects and during a last question for you book number. Nineteen thirty six years of running the cookies go. What's the one top tip that you've learned over that time? It can be a technique for boiling an egg. It could be owning a mandolin. What's the one bit of advice I can ask you? That you think is made at life a little bit easier in an otherwise hectic come reschedule. Oh my goodness I think. Sit Down after your days days work. Sit Down and enjoy something at the kitchen table whether it's just nomination loss of wine but sit down let the cares and the worries of the days slip away as you enjoy little special moment at the kitchen table during Allan thank you so much. My thanks to Derina Allen and Josh Finit you've been listening to a special edition of the globalist it was produced by your lean. Goffin and edited by Christie. Evans will be back at the very same time tomorrow. I'm Ben Ryan. Thank you for tuning in so ups is a global financial services firm with over one hundred hundred fifty years of heritage built on the unique dedication of all people we bring fresh thinking and perspective to all while we know that it take a marriage of intelligence and heart to create lasting value for all clients. It's about having the right ideas of course but also about having one of the most accomplished systems and an unrivalled network of global experts. That's why it. UBS We pride ourselves on thinking thinking smarter to make a real difference to names the bulletin with UBS every week for the latest insights and opinions. Romy bs all around around the world.
U.S. Projects 240,000 Deaths With Mitigation
"The White House projects to hundred and forty thousand corona virus. That's a thirteen year old boy in the UK dies from the virus and Amazon fires in employees who led a protest for protective equipment. Hello everyone and thanks for tuning into the latest Corona Virus Global News the global debt soul has now surpassed forty two thousand eight hundred fifty thousand confirmed cases. White House current Avars Task Force Members. Deborah bricks and Anthony fell seat painted a grim picture for the country. Projecting it up to two million. Americans will die from CORONA VIRUS IF NO PUBLIC. Mitigation efforts are employed. President Trump added on to say that it's going to be a very painful two weeks ahead. I want every American to be prepared for the hard days that lie ahead. We'RE GONNA go to a very tough two weeks and then hopefully as the experts are predicting as I think. A lot of us are predicting having studied it. So hard going to start seeing some real light at the end of the tunnel but this is going to be a very painful very very painful two weeks when you look and see at knife the kind of death that's been caused by this invisible enemy. It's it's incredible. I was watching last night. Governor Murphy of New Jersey say twenty nine people died today meaning yesterday and others talking about numbers far greater. But you get to know a state. I Know New Jersey. So well and you twenty nine people and Hundreds and other locations hundreds and other states even with strict social distance in measures employed across the country. The White House projects that up to two hundred and forty thousand people will die from Krona virus making it the third leading cause of death the task force expects to see that the peak will be on April fifteenth with over two thousand fatalities on that day is significant number of daily deaths will continue into at least July the US broke a record of seven hundred and forty-two that's in the last twenty four hours topping four thousand fatalities and more than two hundred thousand confirmed cases. The state of Louisiana is quickly becoming a hotspot as more than twelve hundred. New cases have been recorded in one day. More than fifty people have died from the virus in the last twenty four hours increasing the state's battle. Two hundred thirty nine Louisiana Governor John. Bel Edwards said Monday that he will extend the state's stay at home order through the end of April New York City mayor. Bill de Blasios has pleaded the nation for assistance as more than one thousand people have died from Colonel Virus in Manhattan. More than five hundred paramedics. Two thousand nurses and two hundred and fifty ambulances are heading to New York City from across the country to assist with the crisis New York state accounts for roughly forty percent of cases in the US. The mayor has asked the White House. For One thousand nurses three hundred and fifty respiratory therapists and one hundred fifty doctors from the military and the Reserves California will release as many as three thousand five hundred inmates as part of an ongoing effort to limit crowding in Prisons Corona virus outbreak. The plan was announced by the California Department of Corrections State. Additionally implemented a supervision of intake by county prisons estimating the inmate population could be cut by as much as three thousand and the next thirty days. The early release protocol applies I to those serving for nonviolent crimes. A thirteen year old boy who tested positive for coronavirus has died any south London hospital. He is the youngest person to have died with virus in the UK. The boy had no apparent underlying health conditions and tested positive for Kobe. Nineteen on Friday a day after he was admitted to the hospital Saturday. The child died without any family members. Close by due to the highly infectious nature of the virus. The boy's death marks a devastating reality that no one is spared by cove nineteen the UK has increased. Its enforcement of the national. Stay at home order. Police have been criticised though for filming people by Drones Stopping and questioning shoppers and issuing citations for minor acts the UK. Now has more than twenty five thousand confirmed cases and one thousand. Seven hundred and eighty nine fatalities. Russian President Vladimir Putin has threatened harsh crackdowns for those who violate the country's new quarantine and stay at home orders. The new measures banned public gatherings and order the closure of non essential businesses. Violators in the country. Could face up to seven years in prison. The measure comes as Russia reported five hundred new cases in the last twenty four hours. Putin also met with a doctor who tested positive for the virus last week conspiracy theories about Kobe. Nineteen are also spreading in Russia some claiming that the US government created the virus as a bio weapon and lastly Amazon has fired in assistant manager out there. Staten Island facility. After the employees led a protest where workers voiced concerns over current ivars protections. Protesters demanded the warehouse to be shut down and cleaned after an employee at facility tested positive Amazon. Terminated the assistant manager for violating social distancing guidelines by attending the protest Amazon says the employee was supposed to be under quarantine because he had a close contact with a diagnosed associate. New York attorney. General Latisha James commented on the issue. Saying it's disgraceful. The Amazon were terminating employees. Who Bravely stood up to protect himself and his colleagues. This has been your latest global news from Corona Virus Dot FM. Subscribe to this podcast on cast box and follow us on twitter at coronavirus. Fm for the latest news. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
The Evening Briefing: Friday January 17
"Good evening I'm Chris. Price with the briefing from the Telegraph bringing you up to speed in two minutes. Is Friday January the seventeenth. And we've got a big Ben. Brexit Bong exclusive so the battle for the bonds rings on at chief political correspondent. Christopher hope has has a revelation about the estimated half a million pound cost of Big Ben Ringing to mock brexit. The figure is more than thirty times. More than the bill for sounding. Parliament's Great Bell on New Year's Eve and MP's are now questioning whether the cost has been inflated. The news comes as the European Parliament's Brexit it coordinator gave Hofstad met with Brexit Secretary Steven Barkley. He says he's being told. EU citizens won't be automatically deported if they fail L. to apply to remain in the UK and he reckons that Britain will return to being members of the EU in the future. It's the football corruption scandal which rocked the game today to play his agents and an EFL club. Assistant manager have been sentenced after being convicted of bribery charges. Giuseppe Pino PAGLIARA DAX price and Tommy rights. Were all found guilty of soliciting and accepting bribes types that was to gain influence in the selection management and ownership of players. Patrick Sawyer has the details and we all know now. A heated exchange is to be expected on question time. Batak to Laurence Fox has come out and described criticism of his appearance on the program. As water off a duck's back. That's after he argued with a member of the audience about where the coverage by the media of the Duchess of Sussex has been racist. You can watch a video. Their exchange right. Stay put if you're listening on. WHATSAPP will send you those links. Now if you're listening on spotify apple or wherever you get your podcast you fund them in the show notes as well as links to the bit tree of yes minister and heartbeat actor. Ed Eric Folds. WHO's died at the age of eighty two and Jamie Carragher ladies. He's Colon on why. Yoga clock is following in the footsteps of ceramics. And say you're up to date more from Danny on Monday.
The Front Table: 7/30/19
"Thanks for reading and listening with us on this. Week's front table from the seminary caught bookstores in Chicago brows each week's front table and subscribe to our free weekly email newsletter. It's Sam I am Coop Dot Com for more serious books for curious readers in two thousand nine memoir collections of nothing William Davies King writes that value has become a more difficult question than ever and collecting is a social form that response to that question a way of controlling the voracious world the world that consumes us as we consume it seminary top assistant manager Atlanta Jones and I investigate the impulse to accumulate fresh off taking or perhaps being taken by the Co ops annual inventory is qualitatively quantified and yet more new books office tediously accounted for on this week's fron table so we're here at the front table. We're always here at the front table. We do other things but when the Mike Von we're here at the Front table on Colin McDonald talking with breath assistant manager here at the Kapalua Jones and Elena as you well know we just did inventory counted by scanner all of the books at both stores here at the seminary cowpokes. It took a monument of preparation preparation months sometimes sometimes months coverage. It got me thinking about this sort of massive collection. We have what it might mean to collect now. There's so many ways to collect so many things to collect. One Book on the Front Table Right now that I was thinking about just published by Harvard University press the end of forgetting growing up with social media vacate acorn which reduced this is she puts it the specter of childhood that can never be forgotten so we can collect stuff like trains stamps. We can collect identities. He's suggesting perhaps most overwhelming data which I believe. We're going to hear a bit about the book how he became our data. I mean I pulled pulled that one off the table in thinking about what inventory news this is the one day of the year that we treat the books only as objects do we don't care. Where are there in the store. We don't care if they're elvis correctly if they're in the right section. If this is a book we'd like to read if we've never heard of this author. They're just objects that we are counting which has to booksellers almost a horrifying idea what it means to collect store to archive to make sense of an informational capacity these things that we regard to be totally beyond that type of understanding and yet we do it every year and we're going to do it again next year. So this book how we became our data jumped out of me because the author Colin commend he begins at the beginning of the twentieth century and talks about the emergence of the birth certificate as a way part of our lives became totally standardized Eisenhower began to rely on this as a resource and then moving from there the establishment of the field of psychology and how that allowed us to kind of categorize emotions in anyway and collect information store information on people and their emotional lives and the third section of the book is about redlining Mortgage Practices Bank practices as in regards just to race so looking at these different ways that that has shaped or structured our live interesting I think in the book they describe it as we did that we live in this informational age but now we're. Really been getting further further into that become in the informational person or informational people. It's easy to say to kind of BEMOAN. The fact we live our our lives on the Internet were just a collection of numbers are identities are sold between companies but he also says that it's at least very frightening to us to think about ourselves to try to conceptualize our own selves yes without data. This is kind of essential part of who we are and how we function in the world going from the supposed sort of hyper personal place to a more wider view in the eyes of Hans Sloane Sir Onslaught Third Century Naturalist Poston collector extraordinarily in his next book collecting the world right just out from Harvard. It's looking at Sirhan Sloan and his processes of collection excrescences of cataloging and how his collection helps found the British Museum a huge huge portion of their holdings are based upon his own collections of Enlightenment Enlightenment era gathering or seen of things from around the world. It's also got these like amazing color plates in here that show some of his curiosities so if we extract directs the curiosities from there kind of Hor historical context you can just kind of marvel at some of these areas his wig marvel zone no new museum from going to collecting the world back home right here in Chicago Natural Street writing and plinking place it takes on the project objective knowing a space and cataloging information and knowledge on a space because it's looking at Maxwell Street specifically. I believe the area Max Fallen South Hall stood in not just giving a history of the ethnic groups that lived in the area or the housing codes or the various city pushes to clean up the. Area you know build more in the area. Whatever but it's really looking at how we can reconsider the space more lively way and that seemed to resonate in a way with how we're looking at the store during inventory that how can it be both a place of this really wrote knowledge that we can catalog and then pass on to others or look at it from a financial perspective but also allow it to be a place that is just like rich and robust and teeming with life and one of the projects of the book is to use assemblage as a means of telling knowing history or to just challenge what we think of as a sense of place. There's one that I called out on the podcast previous week. Yeah should be so woods. One hundred are times again cataloging one hundred eight separate distinct and always equally painful instance of sexual harassment sexual violence if you're talking about trying to catalog something to know it better to gain power over it to understand it to have someone else understand that this is trying to do all of those things those books again were how we became our data by Colin Koopman collecting the world on Sloan in the origins of the British Museum the James W one hundred times at least one more time by woods and Maxwell Street by Tim Cresswell collect all four and more at had some Kook Dot com and with us next time on this week's Franken <music>.
The Front Table: 5/21/19
"Thanks for reading and listening with us on this week's front table from the seminary coop bookstores in Chicago brows, each week's front table and subscribe to our free weekly Email newsletter at Sam coop dot com for more serious books for curious readers fear of the unknown is the air that most of us breath as familiar as the half d'ivoire phones to use a more current and perhaps this anxious analogy courtesy of author, Evelyn, Hampton works things -iety tend to abound on bookstore shelves, but the question of how to write the unknown is always in flux coop. Assistant manager Elena Jones invites us to enter a state of incomprehension disguised, or embedded by impending doom by reading the way, things appear to be going on this week's fron table with books that can help us keep sight of our fears from life after climate change to the isle of Skye in Virginia woolf's to the lighthouse. All right. So here at the front table with quite literally on the front table. Back with Atlanta Jones, we've just had a conversation this past week with the writer, Evelyn Hampton, not only about her collection of short fiction, which I think she might term, a short fiction of impersonations stemming from perhaps things I-I've of identity, but she also talks with us this week about different writers that she reads as pretending fiction of anxiety. So this is kind of fiction that disregards sort of the, the maybe tradition of narrative, as sort of reductive over our came view of a life, or, or plot something that we can we can point to and understand in a coherent way. But really saying that is part and parcel of our of our lives and why not are writing. And what does that look like in some of these works of fiction and terms? Plots that can't get to where they might want to get to because the keep getting in their own way. So I asked you to come here to the front table. And as I sort of half, jokingly said, I, I would think that almost any book on the club's turntable might have something to do with the anxious state. We're in looking around here, there's, there's many different ways to address this from the fifth beginning by Robert Kelly, which, you know, looks at eons of years of history to figure out what kind of future, we might have in store to. It's getting a lot of attention right now in the press the uninhabitable earth by David Wallace wells life after warming. But what books have you truly brought us to help us think about this? Well, what you're saying about trying to narrate one's life and kind of wear that might fall apart in, in fiction. Once you hit kind of the unknown of anxiety. That's, that's right. Took as a starting off point. I mean, there's many ways to defining Zayed's. We were all kind of drowning in it right now. I think, but a definition I was thinking about was perhaps might be applicable to many of us would being Zaidi's estate of incomprehensible unknown of unfolding out in front of us. So it's, it's that sort of unfocused fear. That might be a way to define exactly what is. Many people disagree with that. I'm sure, but this, the sense of being unsettled or impending, doom or forgetting something just that there's, there's like an, there's something just beyond you that you don't know. And he don't know the scope of it. You don't know the scale of it. And so you're talking about writing that, you know, how do you write a novel, which is supposed to have supposed to you're looking classical form or something? But it supposed to have a narrative arc and it's supposed to one thing is supposed to lead to another or can be understood as emerging from another. But if you're entering into a state of anxiety how, how can you actually write that when things is, is this fear of the unknown? I didn't pull any fiction for us to look at today. The main thing I wanted to talk about was was this book called moving border, alpine Clark cartography of climate change. This is from Columbia books on architecture and the city and center for earned media cars route, and the premise of this book, which is, you know, part, cartography part of, I don't know, filing cabinet and exhibition catalog this looking at the land border of what's happening on the land border with the land border of Italy right now, which is defined by a watershed. But right now, because of the impacts of climate change that watershed is shifting. What is historically been understood to be the, the border of Italy is shifting in a way that is quite slow projecting out into the future. It will continue to shift in a way that we may not understand in. That is unsettling political, realities territorial realities, what your life is like locally if you live near that. Border. It's completely unsettling. These things we thought were stable, another book, I pulled was indeed uninhabitable earth, which is addressing the many ways the climate changes is very near to us. I think at least for me a source of anxiety is not being able to comprehend the global shifts that are happening as a result of climate change. And so how can we as artists authors booksellers humans? How can we use our imaginative powers to regain some sense of understanding over this massive shift that is happening because it is by being able to imagine some sort of future being able to like proactively create something or comprehended that Aleve, some sort of anxiety? Right. It reminds me of conversation. We had not too long ago with Marsha, Boonrod geologist, who looks at these kinds of. Huge backup aerial timescales, to look at the history of the world and put climate change in that context, not to make us take it less seriously by any measure tobacco out, but to help us to understand that this didn't happen all at once. Yeah. But I think what's essential, and what David Wallace wells seems to be saying this book, is that these things need to be understood at the same time. Both the geological time scale of it, and the like just precise terrifying. Everyday reality is, whether it's shortages. Stronger hurricane seasons than we've seen before massive migrations that essential to understanding climate change is understanding both things at the everyday scale. And then things with those massive geological scale orcas, we've been looking at some nonfiction works, which were great before, to get this just mere idea of anxiety out of our heads and middle anything about how we can read in suffer from it, but you do have to close out here, Lanta, a work, not currently on the front table, but still enduring enough for us truly forever and Hamptons well of fiction. Yes, -iety. What's that? Well, I mean like most things I can bring it back to Virginia Woolf, and specifically to the lighthouse. And if he think about part of the project of that book is, I mean, one there's a clash of the, the human and geological with what is lived in our life span? And what is washed away by the tides of time wins weather? How do you experience and understand loss? But that the human level and on this can more earthly scale. And one of the currents of that book is lily, Briscoe attempting to find a way to mourn, the loss of MRs Ramsay and this, the entire book, she's painting. She's painting on the beach, she's painting, the scenes she's painting the scene, and it's never finished her. She, she always feels dissatisfied with it, but through the loss of MRs Ramsay and returning to the house. She the more she paints. The more she has this objective creative involvement with the scene and her memories, the more she's able to be at peace with the convert shattering loss, she's experienced and it is by unifying the scene with I believe she draws like a single vertical line that finally brings shape to this landscape, the SeaScape that she's painting. Of course, the vertical line could be many things. The lighthouse etcetera etcetera, but it's also an I the letter I so she's able to bring some sort of shape, some create some sort of structure to this, totally utterly terrifying unstable lane experience of her life. She's able to gain some sort of stability through the act of painting through this creative acts, specifically a nonverbal act but also creative act more generally road to the lighthouse twice. And now I feel hearing you talk about it as if I've never read it before it again. That's a call. I should read it again. I will read it again. And then I'll come back to. I don't have a quarter. Gets shaken up again. And then go back to wolf and get shaken up in a different way. That's right. Thank you. Call them those books, again, were moving border, alpine cartography of climate change the uninhabitable earth life after warming and a book that needs, no introduction. But does bear rereading Virginia woolf's to the lighthouse don't fear hear more from the op widely regarded as one of the best academic bookstores in the world in conversations with scholars and writers on books, you won't see or hear about anywhere else on open stacks seminary club bookstore podcast, available now wherever you download podcasts.
Working at MoMA: How Do an Art Handler and a Museum Registrar Do Their Jobs?
"You're listening to working the show about what people do all day. I'm your host, Jordan Weisman. And this week I'm continuing our series on the museum of modern art near city with another double interview, you're going to hear from Sarah would and Stephen Wheeler Sarah is a manager at moments are handling department. And Stephen is one of the museums registrars, registrars and art handlers are basically the logistic people of museums. They're responsible for tracking and transporting and inspecting and installing every single piece of art that comes in and out of the building essentially, they are the people entrusted with making sure that masterpieces where hundreds of millions of dollars move safely around the world. And it's really high stakes work, but they have a very good sense of humor about it. So I hope you enjoy. What are your names? And what do you do? So my name is Sarah would and I work at MoMA. And I am the assistant manager of art handling and preparation or something really long leg. Your formal, title and. Stephen wheeler. I'm a registrar specifically a collection of shar working with the architecture design department. Okay. So I feel like registrar is the less intuitively obvious job title, like art, handling that at least gives a museum novice some sense of what your department does. But what is a registrar? Right. So I usually preface it with art registrar. Sometimes feel dumb doing because it's two people who do what we do you feel like you're being redundant. But other people are like, oh, like the person who takes your money college. And you're like no to most people like most of my family has no idea. What I do really understand. We do most of them just think I travel a lot like they all just think I travel all the time, which is a very small portion of what we come across during various projects. But but if you're giving an elevator pitch version of it. If you're Bryant explain to your family quickly. Don't just get on airplanes for your job. What what is a registrar base? So. We're the caretakers of the artwork in that. We set up shipping creating the transportation in and around the museum like we get our cues, richer to'real or conservation or about what needs to go where and then we do, you know paperwork, and listen, that's the kind of stuff that we give to Sarah who disperses it to her team. And they're they're the ones that actually execute. The moves the hanging. So we kind of content him in that way. So it sounds like the two of you combined are sort of light and was like the internal UPS or like FedEx further museum is that like a good way to kind of like, you're the you're the office side, and you guys the, and Sarah, you're sort of the actual like physical managing the logistics side of it. Yeah, that's right. And we deal with the actual objects and the registrars deal with all of the like loan agreements. There's tons of paperwork or. Digital now. Hopefully, but condition reports that they do, but we really are. I guess if we're gonna go with like UPS analogy, nothing we're like the drivers and the people who unload the truck, and then the people who install it. And so, yeah, it's UPS. But then it becomes like something something else after I don't know if my UPS analogy, you a little skeptical of my UPS because I think it's so much like better and more interesting than that. Okay. We're gonna we're gonna. I don't know that. Yeah. I have to tell you. We're going to work on my crap. Now by the end of less crap. Let's okay. So let's let's like really concretely windy. You guys. Like winter you called into the process of getting divisions or loans done when you enter the scene. It sort of depends on what the project is like talking about a big huge exhibition that takes three four years of planning, you know, like Chertoff aerials working on that for a long time before any of us really hear about it. And then once it becomes like a solid program that we're going to go after, you know, then everyone starts to get involved. And you start getting information about where all the loans are gonna come from with the material like is it a collection show like so we have shows that are primarily loans like that come in from other institutions private lenders. Or we we do a lot of just collection show. Like on like, maybe like a per department level. Like you could go into a gallery, that's all photography from our collection. It's been curated around a certain idea or artists. And so that would be maybe a shorter timeframe a little bit. So, but once there's basically a show coming up at some point, you're going to be called say we have to actually start actually getting the stuff. Yeah. It's probably like six months year out like you start working on all these logistics like because we bring stuff in from all over the states all over the world trucking crating things are flying. It's there's a lot that goes into getting all that stuff in one room together that is the behind the scenes stuff. That's the heart of what we do is alone. Shogo like the more complicated. One sort of usually they are because we don't have direct experience with the objects ourselves with our collection, usually we've installed it at least once before. Four or somebody knows somethings buddy worked for the artist or somebody worked somewhere else and they've done it before. But if you are having a show of all loans that can be pretty complicated. But conversely, you usually have more time it's like a more structured plan because so many people are involved in all these legal issues. And okay. So that's fun and gnarly. So let's talk about let's talk about one of those shows. Okay. So what how does that start? Where do you start the process for getting this stuff to museum and taking care of it? Where's it begin sensually? Securities have picked out all of the material that they wanna bring in. They've really Stelter lists. And you know, kind of make some decisions about is. That piece worth it. We need it versus other piece that maybe cost a lot of money to make these things happen, and you have to do some costs saving measures at some level. That's interesting. It's cost money because of the shipping sheri-, y you. Insurance all the shipping. You're getting crates made for artworks that we don't even own. So that we can go get them transport them safely. Bring them to the museum. You know? So they're installed and everything goes perfectly are crates really expensive creates are really expensive. Yeah. Like, why is that? There's I mean, it's very custom job. Like, you're you're asking for them to make a nice strong box for whatever it is. Whether it's a painting or sculpture or some complicated, av installation where it's thousand pieces and after we put together once they're here. It's all custom fit. Yeah. And they also have like they essentially go on an airplane people's luggage. And they get moved around with forklift by guy who maybe you should talk to him about how John. I mean, they get driven around the airport. They could driven around out on the tarmac. They're pushed around sometimes they fall over at the airport. I mean, it's like as they're not always paying attention to decide up. Yeah. And they don't really care that you have a Picasso in there. Like, they they have like some chickens and some gloves, and then they have your Picasso, and they're all going on the airplane. So they have. So that's another part of the job that we do. And that is the part that like people hear about and think is fabulous is like we do travel with the art if it's something like a value. It's fragile the lender agreement will typically include like it has to have a career which is when we or conservation curatorial people go to the site pick the thing up and ride all the way back to here with it. It's like always in your sight. It's your your there when they're doing the forklift like you're the one that says like go slower don't raise it up that high like make sure you don't do this with it don't stack it. So you're there to be the kind of is and keep everything kosher. We've definitely kind of detour here. Interesting this detoro, especially since you brought up the causes falling over. So wait has never happened. Never happened. So now thinking of which culture, it must have been that was in the console show. You guys did. Yeah. We're all loans. That's pretty much a lot of. Yeah. Yeah. Mass majority are people at airports and our forklift drivers, generally conscientious. Absolutely. Nobody's they don't wanna mess up anybody's stuff, but things happen. But they're also moving massive amounts of stuff. It's amazing. When you go to these cargo holds like you just see humanity in like, a whole another way just pallets and pallets and boxes of paper towels computers, mice like not that kind of computer. Imagine a giant box full of animals, no animals actual. I've seen ills and that's all in the same warehouse being moved around as the artist coming through. Yeah. And because it's just a shipping warehouse for that your stuff is like so every airline has their own cargo area. And so whatever airline you're using you see all of their cargo when you're traveling with the art are you like riding in a cargo hold like, how are you said you have to have your eyes on it all the time. You you hang out. You're not in the cargo hold of their. Freezing say. Chilin? They're in a parka, right? Like a bag of chips. No, you you don't have your eyes on it to you as much as you come. You. Don't get on the plane until you're you see your cargo physically like you stand at the gate with an agent. You are watching your your freight go onto the airplane a soon as your crate or creates are on the plane. You get on the plane if you don't get on the plane and your stuff on the plane. They can't take off. Oh, interesting. So it's really these are just passenger flights like they're not. Special usually, they're not special airplanes are also cargo flights, which are no passengers just a couple of pilots and a bunch of stuff and usually maybe some horses. Yeah. This sounds like the beginning of a heist movie saying there's a there's a several hundred million dollar Picasso on this flight to New York and someone's going to try and get the plane or something right? So all of our crates like there's no nothing says MoMA on outside of the crates. Nothing says what's inside it's supposed to be a pretty anonymous thing. But then when you go into cargo, you realize nothing else looks like this like you can tell that. It's a pretty special box. Yeah. So the custom maids. Yeah, they should they should like make it look less special. Probably make it look like it's made out of cardboard or something. It's okay. So and this brings us back to where we started which is like you have to actually rainfall this. So who actually makes these boxes like what what are the companies that do that? Is it just like a box maker a barrel maker does this as a sideline or something there? Art, trading art. So that usually there. Yeah. Usually, they're an art transportation company who also makes crates, and they usually store are for people for collect private collectors. And in Europe, they actually have a different model where like one company does everything they do all of the coordination. They do the shipping they do customs. They're also the people that go to the museums. Do the the installation like the very like top down overall kind of the where here it's much more. Like we outsource to a trucking company. We outsource to creating company. Outsource to like freelance installers sometimes for various projects like this is a whole crane the scenes industry that's making the art actually move. No one real again, if you're a regular museum guard. Just don't really know about it. Yeah. I always think about the people that go to, you know, a very famous institution that has a very famous piece or two, and then the visitor goes they're expecting to see that peace, and it's not there. Yeah. And they're kind of like where to go, usually, it's maybe it's gone on loan to some show. Yeah. That's specifically about that artists. And it's a really important groundbreaking show to bring them all together. So it's worth taking that institution's masterpiece for the sake of the larger educational good because art flows between institutions are has to be some sort of network to make it happen to make it happen correctly and safely, and so people don't lose money because the cost fell over and broke, right? Like the amount of insurance that everybody has to it. Good causes harm. Has that ever happened to you in the industry there any examples of art that was severely damaged in transit? Yeah. I mean, it must it has to happen happen. You don't want it to happen? Obviously, try our jobs. Try everything we can to make sure things don't happen. But you know, like a big part of what you do or from. My fantasy point is like when we loan something or someone loans to us one of the first things that happens to it is it so you get it into your museum. You let it sit for twenty four hours in climate to kind of get acclimated to the temperature and humidity of the new space that it's in the new take it out of its crate, and you stare at it for like an hour and make sure nothing changed since the last time somebody saw it. And so the registers take these meticulous note. Let's take a tiny flashlight, and like scan everything and and make sure nothing happened because there's so much liability. Yeah. Writing on like did anything happen like nothing can change. That's more tedious part of it. He's like sitting there, and you're checking and you're like looking at every single corner. And when I mean like are you looking for like did a bit of pink scratched or like, drip Bor in transit? You're looking for stuff that could happen from it slowly timely just shaking for however long trip was because it's on a plane on a truck like there's so you're thinking about things getting dislodged or shifted maybe some surface. That's like a tricky. Like an aggregate surface. You're you wanna make sure nothing's fallen off. So you're looking for all those little things. And then you're also making a document that says this is how it entered the museum and our goal is to have a leave the museum in exactly the same shape. So there's lots of things that can happen during the course of being on view like we have thousands and thousands of visitors. Day that are in these spaces Chet. Gold security manager was telling me about how viewers logic just touched the art like at relate will go in pot the painting. They don't even believe it's the real thing. And then that's another part of what we do during the installation process is we walk around the galleries after it's done, and we're kind of like, all right? That thing needs a little extra protection. We're gonna put something in front of it that should have a platform a little bigger, you know, things that keep the artwork at arm's length as much as we can without you know, mucking up the visual. How do you make that call? Well, I mean, it's usually it's a kind of group decision sometimes lenders specify I want a security officer standing next to my skull. My sculpture twenty four hours a day, or I want stanchions or I want this. I want that a lot of artists don't want any of that stuff because detracts from the aesthetic it's not part of the work. And so they usually it's usually a a little bit of a push pull between. Art, handling and registrar and conservation usually on the side of let's try to make sure something bad doesn't happen. And the curator's artists kind of always want everything to look amazing all the time. But we know things happen bad things happen, so pathetically. We would put every single thing in giant plex box. About about having like just a tiny lake tunnel that people can walk through, and maybe they have to let cross their arms. They can't like actually deviate from this very tight path because it's so nerve wracking. So that's a tension though. The you're you guys are always on the side of safety, partly because you guys you're responsible for them getting it back to whoever owned it original exactly you don't want anything to ever happen. But if it got scratched or something kid touches, it you get into possible legal situations. And you don't wanna go down that road. So we just try to keep everything as safe as possible. So I was telling you guys on the phone a little bit about my very brief experience working at a museum like very very misbegotten the campus museum at northwestern. When I was figure out what I want do that myself, and I was basically handling checklists all day, and it wasn't so much that I thought that was, you know, boring or bad or anything it was that. I just knew that. I was not. A person you wanted handling checklists? And it was not the job. I was gonna screw something. Some truly piece was going to get lost in transit because something I left off. But I'm curious how much of your life is paperwork. How much of your guys lives is checklists seemed very important to Maynas a lot. We do. These shows these checklists I just got one today. Four hundred objects for show. Yeah. And you're just like, wow. It's a lot of stuff to keep track of, you know, everything from like a small ceramic bowl to a car are on the same artwork checklists. And you're like, okay. I got a really get through this. You gotta see what's located where you gotta make a list about what's going to go on that truck. What's going to go over here? What's in conservation already? And it's safe, and you have to just rake through and make sure you've processed every artwork. Can you're ready to do the next step and keep things moving with the goal of getting everything until the gallery on time. And how I mean like how many things are. I'm one of those list. It's like for large exhibition like how much how big can one of these lists get when they start. Yeah. I think I've seen some lists where they're like in the seven hundred range, which obviously is big, and they still need to do editing, and they they bring it down. But like four hundred is in the realm of like a couple of shows we've done for sure ebeth in something like this show. It's up now the Nauman show on the the portion that's at MoMA, you know, on the sixth floor. They're like area fourteen. Yes artworks, but it feels like yeah. So much because they're so big and involved, and they need space in between each other and his work. They'll talk to each other. Anyway, it's very interesting. Whereas you do a show about small photographs like you need a lot of photographs Philip room. Yeah. So it depends on the show. But I don't really so back to your checklist question. I got checklists from people like Steven and curator's conservation. But I'm really just looking. Like, I'm scanning I can skip over all the stuff that I feel like I understand. So I'm only looking for the things that I either haven't seen before or look hard to achieve or otherwise problematic. Like, oh, this one this one looks like it's battery powered like, we're going to talk about that. Like this one takes water. We're going to talk about that this one looks like it's going to break. This looks like it's already broken. So I'm really just scanning for future problems. So your art handling, but you're also art installation. So you're actually you're the one responsible for actually getting this stuff up on the wall. And getting it on display. I started out as in. Art handler because I didn't know what I was going to be. I didn't have a great plan. I had a. And no plan. So I started art installation. Because that's what people do, and I did that at a few different places. And then I ended up at MoMA as an art handler and then now system manager, so I don't actually do the installation anymore overseas. Yeah. What? So you said that that's what people do is that sort of like, a just a normal like, okay. Kind of next step out while I'm figuring out my life in the arts kind of jobbers. Yeah. Definitely. Well, I think that's how a lot of people start like our crew is vast majority artists practicing artists musicians dancers painters sculptors, photographers, the whole lot. And I think for a lot of people that something that they do it's day job. And then they do other stuff. They have this other thing that they do. But for a lot of people at ends up being more than that. And you can really make a career and you can like really develop like an expertise. That's pretty highly sought after. Actually in the world because you're you guys were just describing this whole industry that's sprouted up around it. I I guess I should ask. What is an art handler? It's literally you your maybe the only person or you along with conservation. You're the only people who can actually touch the art or should actually touch the art. That's the first most exciting thing that you realize when you start handling your like, I get to touch the are like I have always wanted to like just see this whatever it is do shop. And now, I'm like I get to carry it around. But so your job is to like help people like Steven do do their job. So he'll say like, oh like these crates came in yesterday, I need to open them up and do the condition report. And so the art handlers open the crates and unpack the artwork and set it up for condition reporting. And then once that's given the thumbs up, then we're the people who moved around where the people who install it. Install it pack it up again. So this crate comes in Steven you have to take a flashlight inspect every inch of it. But you're not allowed touchy layer hands on the thing. That's and that means your department has to have a hamblur there to actually do all that work because that responsible has been vested in your team. We touch it with meticulously. Sounds dirty. Sorry. Yes, I undress the do shop. Okay. I was I was gonna say the best part. I think for us is we have also have like an alcoholic loan program. And you know, we send our stuff out and you get assigned to it. Maybe you're gonna travel with it. And you're the one that does the report before it goes out, and like while we're having the crate mate and art Hanley's doing their thing. You spend like a solid day maybe two days with just like one amazing. You know Jackson Pollock and you're just staring at it like the entire day. 'cause you're looking at every little corner, you're looking at it and the overall, and you just I didn't study art or painting or anything. So it's like when you get to spend that much time with a single work just really get into it. You just start seeing stuff that you never noticed before. Calories can be hard to really take in art in a like amazing, quiet way. Sometimes when they're very busy, and you lose like personal connection. So like, I find that's the kind of really amazing part of our job is to have that in. Intimate relationship with that. Maybe other people don't get to have. Unfortunately, it sounds like you're actually required to get as up close and personal with a painting in a way that if I were to do that the museum Chet would be yelling to get the hell away from it. In you guys get to touch and hold it in your the only ones who are allowed to do it. But part of it is actually just you're physically moving the stuff. But then also the the art handlers, and they are handling tamer. You're getting up on the wall. Right. Yeah. That has to take kind of special expertise. You're not just hitting picture, you're installing installing and installing a painting is usually like one of the easiest things that you can do a lot of times if like with sculpture or three dimensional objects. You really like you really have to think about every possible thing that might go wrong. And so much thought has to go into how was it made? Like, how's it gonna stand up? How heavy is a what if it gets bumped into what if you know? And then you can't have it looked like it's wearing a straight jacket. So it's used to kind of all of this invisible. Precautionary stuff to make everything safe. But also look the way that we expect to look what's an example of an. Visible precautionary step that you might. I was just saying we were about to do it installation. With a lot of lake design objects like things like the forties and fifties that were part of a design project that the museum sponsored at one of the things we're going to hang on a wall is like a rake, and we need to hang it on the wall and mounted in a way that is like invisible, but also secure, and so we have some of the art handlers right now working on these really my new little bits of hardware that like sometimes they exist. Sometimes literally make them these mounting bits brackets and things that like just disappear. Like, nobody sees it. They don't even know how it's hanging on the wall because it's done. So. Yeah. It's not magic. But it's almost magic. I like that. It's like a good description of almost almost man. So part of it is to find a way to to make things safe without being I guess what? What does it mean for something? Like, it's straight Jack. I guess like what is what does that mean? You don't wanna step on the toes of the artists and ten men. That's another reason why it's really great to have creative people behind the scenes because everyone gets it like, they they know what it feels like to have made something, you know, it's like if somebody's answering their cell phone during your cello recital or something like you just don't want to intrude like it's not an thought that like putting the box around something or having guards standing hovering over right? It kind of thing that you're trying to avoid what's like another creative way. You guys get around the having to do that sort of thing. What's a not that? I'm asking you to. Security safe. Secret. I mean Stevens said earlier we try to create distance between the art and people for everyone's wellbeing, but also to keep the art safe. So that's usually the best way is if you can somehow just keep people a little bit further away, and that also usually gives enough kind of viewing space for the work. So you so you're not like literally tying down to a platform. But it's tricky I mean, and I think there's a lot of compromise. Like, I was saying the curator's have to compromise artists compromise. We also compromise. I guess you know, what's the progression? There said a lot of people make a career out of it. And it seems like so you then go up and kind of managing logistics part of it. Yeah. Or what are you doing? Our like, you could be me or you could be like a senior we have lead. Art handlers. Who have a lot of expertise in specific experience that is recognized within our institution. But literally every gallery every major gallery or museum has kind of a lead installer or like head. Art handler in the world, that's a lot of jobs, and usually those people have art backgrounds themselves, and like let's just thinking we know someone who's who becomes maybe like the head person at maybe an artist estate like that's a cool gig. 'cause you're the one that like maybe you worked with them while they were still alive and that person. Knows more about that person's working process and how they made the things more than anybody else does. And you know, now, you're the person that carries that forward and anytime that artist's work gets lint somewhere. You're definitely going to see that person because they're the authority on it. And you could easily end up in a spot like that. I mean for people who like probably, you know, didn't go to business like it's not so bad. But it does ruin museums for you can't you kind of can't I cannot go to museums Zilly Why's that because you were spoiled like I can walk around moment by myself, literally. And I don't wanna look at art with other people. That's so you when you talk about like the tunnel where someone has their arms around themselves. That's actually, your ideal viewing space. Yeah. You're telling me only for them for you. Whenever I go to museums. I find myself like with my hands behind my back and like staring intently, but I'm like, I feel like I'm sending signals to the security guards in the room. Like, I'm being very responsible. I know I'm one of the good ones. Yeah. You don't have to worry about me. I'm so the opposite. I'm because I'm like, I'm going gonna look at the brushstrokes. Let me I try to do what you're actually paid. Ever. They're staring at me because they know on the guy they worry. But I mean, if you if you really into it, and you're like into the process and the materials like I'm really into print making as well. And like you see print on here. Like, oh my God. Is that lithograph is that silkscreen? I can't wait till it's framed, and he's he's of get really close to it. And you're looking at it at a weird angle. And you're like just waiting for somebody to come yell at you. And in the privacy of MoMA, you are totally entitled to have museums been ruined for you to or are you are you not? I mean, I understand the sentiment sending I can look at like entities. Okay. With other people because you don't have those on some. Yeah. But I can't I can't to contemporary art, or even modern Arna. Can't it's been ruined for been runs. She's nothing's gonna compare to having the Pollick right there that you can. Yeah. Well, there's always the architecture of the other museums that you have to experience like a db can. Where it's like, it's it's as much about the space as it is about the arguments in the space. That's there's some other museums of gotten to go to over the years where you're just like this place is gorgeous. I think actually seeing all the exhibitions coming go. You actually get used to the idea that like it's here, and then it's gone. So it's like, it doesn't really matter. What the art is. Sometimes it's more about going to the police and enjoying like, I'm thinking of the Louisiana museum in Denmark. I think it is. It's just a gorgeous experience to go there. And it's like a Louisiana museum. It's called the Louisiana museum. Like, not by Louisiana. No, that's Louis. We offer very long time like as a registrar. What's like a pet peeve? What is something that? Like, drives you nuts in your job. Let it rip. Someone who deals with a lot of paperwork and a lot of legal stuff and probably lawyers. There have to be I don't know registrars tend to be very specific and like organized types. So when you are going through your lists or through spreadsheets and our database for me. It's like if I see one field that just like empty or one thing that just doesn't have a picture and the rest of them, do you're just like why I'm going to get fixed. Like, and you just kind of my one missing graphic in the spreadsheet. Yes. Like, you're just like why don't we have that data? We should definitely have that. Like, you know, could just be that information literally doesn't exist yet say you're very sensitive to flies in the Whiteman. Yeah. Yeah. We want everything to go really smoothly. You wanna make sure all the ducks are in the row, and there's always going to be things that happen. Like, we try to be very precise. And we have put in there's things you can't handle like we have tr-. Trucks going around the city coming to us taking stuff from us to other places you want everything to work out. But you know, sometimes they say they're going to get there too. They don't get there till seven at night because traffic and variations and you're like, you can't really control that. But it definitely creates havoc in your day when you're trying to work on something else. It also you're finding out that thing you thought it was just going to go off without a hitch all of a sudden become a big weird scenario cod. His I mean, you're the planet who's putting it all down this is going to happen. And so Sarah. What about you? What's a pet peeve? Feel like for handling there there there are couple of things that happen that are like the record just like scratch is like the needle across the record. When people tell you to be careful. Oh, yeah. Be careful. It's fragile thinks. Figured because you're paying me to carry it around and all, but so that's one thing. People will stand behind you. And be like is that are you? Sure, it's level. Can you just? Are you? Sure, it's level. Yeah. Yeah. If there's a painting on the wall, somebody's just guaranteed to be like, I don't think that's level. Everybody is just like on fire like everybody's just like in. We're like, okay. Take a breath. Suppress. We've never made shirts or anything. I mean, somebody's should me should put together a little like do's and don'ts for new curator's. Like do not ask. What else would be on that list? I want. No one here is that level level. You have to go in and get like just two peas them. You have to get the level or point. Well, it depends on who asks honestly, like if a curator asks you're going to have to get the level. Okay. Even if it's a new curator got it. Yeah. I think you're going to have to do that. Doesn't have standing who is like who's. I mean, I everybody probably has their own threshold. Honestly, like, I'm probably not getting level. Like, I'm not. Yeah. Like, yeah. It's level. It is. Okay. So what else is on that do's and don'ts list? What have I said already beat careful is that level is it level? I don't know. Okay. Supporter dangerous list. Yeah. I mean, I do you have to go back to work eventually. So there's the people telling you to do your job and be careful doing your job when that is your entire job is to be super grateful, and there's this fine line. I actually find our department's like worked together, which is we get all the information from the artist or the lender or the gallery about like how things was to be put together how it's supposed to look in the end like we get all that information. So we try to forward that to them in the course of the installation where it's like a dialogue. But sometimes it feels like like. Boston. You around Boston you. I'm just telling you what somebody else told me is the way it has to be a little shoot the messenger. Sometimes just like, well, there's a little bit of like an upstairs downstairs thing and like blue collar, white collar kind of is there. There's there's a little bit of a rub. And I think that you know, I don't blame. I don't blame everyone else. They're very jealous. We get to touch the art. They don't. So sometimes that comes out. About putting together. The that's interesting to me like the idea that art has just like it's got assembly instructions. Yeah. How complex does that? Get very. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's like you can tell the personality of the artist and how successful they are like how thorough their instructions and how complicated like fit takes eight to ten people to like put something together. This is somebody with a really big studio until the artists who immediately thinking of coons or something where it's like so big, and there's so much involved and putting it together like you might get into rigging. And they've already thought about it like they know that they're making something gigantic. So they've already thought through the process of like how it comes apart because you have to get into pieces that like I dunno go through doorways and stuff, you know. Sometimes you see an artwork and you're like where that's can't go anywhere like. Louise, bourgeois like spider like a giant one? I'm always like, I can't even imagine how that thing goes together. But it has to come apart. You know, these things fifty feet tall. Sometimes wait. So what is the most difficult to put together show you've personally had to deal with? I wanna say I didn't work on it. But was Picasso sculpture? Like completely bonkers. It wasn't big because it was or it was choreographed. The interesting, thank every breath. It was like nothing could go wrong. So nothing went wrong. Because you're just dealing with hordes and hordes of the most expensive are in the world that and it's indemnified, and it's like every artwork has a different courier. So all the scheduling had to which the registrars had did a great job of organizing shutout Shattuck's in the exhibition world shoutout to read hundreds of sculptures. And so each one of those pieces of work had its own handler who was coming in and overseeing essentially Inada museum is that when you say each one had a career coming occur. Yeah. Every every little tiny pipe, and every giant head was had someone with it to to literally everything, but more. But more than average. Yeah. I mean, some people brought multiple works. Yeah. Like different lenders had multiple works in the show and usually the careers, don't install so they come in. They they oversee the condition check. And and they see it installed. And then they leave. It's like there. The parents seeing that could go off the school. Yeah. They're bundled up. I mean, it's the same thing that we do go in the other way when we lend our stuff too big institution. We're doing the same job where we ride along with it. But we also make sure it gets installed to our standards. It's not right next to a doorway or in front of an air conditioning. Great or, you know, you're there to kind of look out for all those things which is we have the same reciprocal relationship with the artwork that comes in. There's people that have this request and you have to fight by that. I just remembered what the hardest show. The Kyle tough show. L tough. He's a living artist. He's German but lives here believe and was it last year. Within the past two years in living artists. Make it look you're already like in a different level of difficulty because they're they want to be there. And they want to be in charge. And they wanted sometimes to it in the middle of the night or alone or yeah, he just wants to install his stuff in the museum by himself. Yes. What's it's not the only one who's made such requests looking to work. Does he I don't know his work. Oh, he's really everything. He'd super interesting. He does ceramics. He does. He's drawing painting everything of just imagining a lone German meandering, the whole of MoMA language as simply as stuff did you allow him to do we try? We it was a super complicated show because lenders had to give permission essentially for him to handle the loans, which is atypical interesting. He had to get permission to handle his own work. Yeah. Because he doesn't own it anymore. It's such an interesting thing. Right. Like that. It's your art work. But now somebody else owns it. Yeah. And like they're psyched that they have this piece by this person. But at the same time, you might not want them to like say to you. I have an idea when like dunk your photograph in in water for this show or something like that could happen. And you're in this scenario, you gave your kid for adoption and the other guys out at your kid. You can't take back the. At that. Boy, do it. But I mean, he. Yeah. So we had to talk about like what what would he do? And when would he do it? And what if you needed help, and it really pointed out like how bureaucratic having a museum show is and but I feel like I feel pretty proud about. How we I think we successfully allowed him to have the show you on it while also maintaining our professional standards, but it was really hard to find a sweet spot in there and took a lot of talking and feeling it out, and it was uncomfortable. I think for everybody. But in the end, I think it was a great show. And I feel like he I hope I'm not wrong. I think he was happy. What kind of accord did you strike with him out to do this stuff? I think one thing that really helped is that he ended up really trusting the art handlers. The were on his show and he gained comfort and confidence in them through the process. And and then kind of his demands kind of all soft starter soft often at that point. So he wants he felt more comfortable in that people were like, we really just want you to have the best show. You can have literally no other goal. So, but I think it's there's always that line with a person who's doing a project or an installation of their stuff because they're probably more used to more free environment. Whereas like, we have a lot of constraints that are beyond all of us. And you know, we don't want to just have like a bunch of white cubes with like carefully hung art. We wanna have interesting dynamic installations like this. So we have to kind of back out from what we're sort of comfortable with which is like, you know, five things safely framed on a wall behind glass, and these artworks that are more involved like total rooms that have just been taken over by. Just a massive amount of objects. And they're like laying on each other or things that are just knew you talked to mackinac about the whole the got cut in the floor. And you're like nobody was ready for that. But you know, you make it work because it's going to be super interesting and great for the fewers when it's done. I guess this is something a lot of people have done this. I appreciate about. What makes me is interesting. But it's not just the therapist. How the arts presented and you guys have to constantly negotiate between doing it as interestingly as possible. And then also making sure it stays within the letter of legal actually, get the art there. And it's like that's kind of the tension that you're negotia and the new at the same time. It sounds like when you're doing a live artist half the job appears to be just getting their trust like convincing them that you're competent capable. Yeah. And often the curator has that relationship with the artist. And so that goes a long way and fostering that kind of goodwill like all of the planning and the build up is. The least fun most nerve wracking part. Once you're actually in the gallery installing with people. I think everyone feels better. That's when you can kind of just do the thing that you've been talking about doing for years. And so everybody's usually pretty good mood by then until asks whether it's level right until that last. Yeah. The final question, I'm asking everybody. What are your favorite pieces of art at MoMA for me? It's we have a nice little group of Duchamp that are usually on view. And what are they any? We have a lot. It's kind of embarrassment of riches, but we have like I really love fresh widow, which is like a window shaped object and three standard stoppages is good bicycle wheel. What is about the job that you'll much those are like when I was in college and studying art, history and art and kind of trying to figure out what kind of artist I was going to be I. Really gravitated to shop. And I felt like he is maybe the most influential artists for maybe my generation. I don't know. Now, you have to get to pick up, and I actually get to pick up, and I can see like how it's made. And I can see the on the window like the little knobs early. Push pins. You just don't know that when you're looking through your like history of art textbook. Then tile, it's like a different level wariness of what this stuff is made up. Yeah. And I think you get to really digest like how's it made in like what kind of person does that? So that's for me. I feel. The round bingo. The Gordon Matta Clark piece it's three sections of the exterior of house that he cut out in a nine part grid and insulation. We have is three of those like, so I went to architecture school and you're studying architecture, but they also teach you about our and like three relationship between the thing. So there's a couple of heroes, and he's definitely one of them. And so it's amazing to take the idea of just like part of a house, and you literally cut it out. And then you put it in the gallery floor, and all of a sudden, it's just this gorgeous thing and really just look at the materials of the siding, and you can part of it has we're the steps were on the inside that have been cut away. See this like the cross section of stairs. And there's a window that gets cut through halfway. It's just so dynamic, and it just it looks good. Everybody. Put it I have to register someone whose job is to inspect a piece of art for it being like mint condition, or at least the exact same conditioning comes in wouldn't like the wall of a house be sort of a nightmare for you. Well, you know, that's part of it is like it's nothing is in condition. Our Shabbat document, the existing condition to understand where it is like some we have posters that are one hundred years old they're like cracking and falling apart. And they've been creased before that just is the condition, but it's our job to note where those things are like like if it's missing a big chunk of paint. We've definitely noted that that's where that paint loss is and you keep an eye on it. Like, you don't want to get any worse. You don't necessarily want to repair it either. Because it's part of the artwork unless somebody does a bunch of research and figure out like, oh, actually, it's not supposed to be that way. And let's get that repaired or so you need to make sure the house is roughly or the the walls roughly in the shape it showed up in the house, the cut out wall. The of the. One story house does not actually have to be exactly it's it should be should be what it was when he found it. I mean, that's kind of the gist of his thing was like he takes old buildings and cuts holes in them. Cut them in half. Like splitting the most beautiful projects ever cut a house in half in jacked up part of it. So that it split down the middle. So you all you see is this sliver of light going from the bottom up. So I think at the top maybe it's a foot open, maybe. But I think it's only documented and like maybe a couple of videos and some photographs and the idea that the it doesn't exist anymore. I think is really beautiful idea that like he did this beautiful active our architecture, and then you documented, and then it's gone. And like, so the only thing that survives is these it happened. Yeah. It's a great selfie spot. Right. I just wanted to go back to your allergy. Oh, my crap analogy that I never really fixed. I think at this point. It's pretty clear vanden I like to think of us more like a strike force. No, not really military, maybe like ninjas or something like we have like parties like secret hidden talents. Yeah. No, art interests. I'll take that. That's a lot better than. UPS to that was that's not now. Sorry car. It's no staying in. If I say dumb things on the show. I keep my dumbest comments in the show. I try to make everyone else. Look good. Not that you guys needed any health. Anyway, thanks so much for coming on. This has been a lot of fun. That's it for this week's episode of working. I hope you enjoyed the show if you did please leave me a review at apple podcasts. And if you got questions or comments, I mean, Email at working at slate dot com V producer on working gentlemen, Molly. And as a special thank you to direct for the is catchy next week with our final episode in our series on the museum of modern, art any or exotic.
S6: March Mysteries: Burger Chef Murders Pt. 1
"In nineteen seventy eight four young employees of the Burger chef fast food chain in speedway Indiana went missing soon after closing time. Police initially thought it was just a petty theft crime then two days later about twenty miles away from the restaurant there. Four bodies were found. If you enjoy these episodes on the shocking burger chef murders and WANNA hear more like it. Check out the unsolved murders podcast. Every Tuesday we delve into the mystery of a true cold-case an attempt to solve the crime. Follow unsolved murders free on spotify or wherever? You listen to podcasts. Due to the graphic nature of this case listener discretion is advised. This episode includes dramatization in discussions of murder that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. Welcome to Burger Chef. My name is Jane and I'd love to take your order. Please tell me still sell the fund meals with the space war toys. You Mean Star Wars. Now that's William Shatner. I've been to every Burger Chef in the Greater Indianapolis area. My little timothy is pitching a fit. I'm so sorry but we are out to. Kids are Kuku for R. Two D. Two. Was that supposed to be funny? I'm sorry I've got a smart mouth. I didn't realize this was so important. Hi No I'm ridiculous. Bet just been so rattled since the ciphers murder. If I can't be happy I just want my son to be. I think the movie tie and deal might be over. I'm so sorry again. Well for my Jimmy Sake. I just hope they make a sequel sin. No that'd be awful. Why ruin a good flake with unnecessary? Only God is everyone. Okay Daniel all good. There's smoke down the street. It's like a bomb. Went off a bomb. What's going on with this town? In September nineteen seventy eight twenty year old. Jane freight was settling into her new role as assistant manager at a Burger. Shifts STORE IN SPEEDWAY INDIANA. This summer had been a rough one. Thanks to a horrifying July murder that shocked the town. A surprise bomb going off in September was the last thing Jane or speedway needed but more bombs would come and that wouldn't be the worst of what the town would endure that year this is unsolved murders true crime stories. Apar- cast original. I'm your host Kara. Roy and I'm your host Wendy Mackenzie every Tuesday. We dive into the world of a real unsolved murder in. Try to solve the case you can find episodes of unsolved murders and all other park asked originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream unsolved murders for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type unsolved murders in the search bar at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how doing reach out on facebook and Instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network. This is our first episode on the Nineteen seventy-eight Burger chef murders in speedway Indiana. This week will learn about the strange events that shattered the suburbs. Peace and quiet and meet the four Burger Chef employees whose usual Friday night routine took a terrifying turn. Next week. We'll cover how they died in the murder. Investigation that lasted for over a decade in Nineteen. Seventy eight speedway. Indiana was a town of just around twelve thousand. It got its name from the nearby Indianapolis Motor speedway home of the Indianapolis five hundred. The world's oldest currently operational auto racing competition it was also home to Jane Carroll Freight a young woman on the CUSP OF ADULTHOOD. Who's ambition and energy would put any race car drivers to shame? Jane was born in Indiana on May Second Nineteen fifty-eight to railroad conductor George free and his wife Caroline. While the couple had several other children. Jane was a standout in a force to be reckoned with by the mid Nineteen Seventies. Jane was a superstar at speedway's Avon High. Her list of activities was dizzying gymnastics choir. Pep Club Yearbook Band and drama. She also honed her leadership skills as librarians assistant and a teacher's aide. But nobody would ever mistake Jane for uptight. Teacher's pet the cheerful girl nicknamed sweet. Jane was quick with a joke and even quicker with a laugh classmates compared her to comedian. Lily Tomlin and there was a sense that she would go on to do. Great things. Greatness called out to Jane from the most unlikely of places a hamburger joint called Burger chef founded in Indiana in nineteen fifty. Four Burger chef had expanded to a staggering twelve hundred locations by the nineteen seventies. Second only to McDonald's Burger chef was a popular place for teens to get after school jobs in one thousand nine hundred seventy five seventeen year old. Jane landed a position at a franchise in the speedway area. Pershing didn't just want a job. She wanted a career by the time. She was twenty in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. Jane lived in her own apartment and worked at Burger Chef. Full-time driving the white. Nineteen seventy four Chevrolet Vega to work every day. Her work ethic and bubbly personality were hit and she was soon transferred to a higher role at another burger chef. On Crawford's Ville road she took on the task of training new employees like Daniel Davis a sixteen year old amateur photographer who yearned to enlist in the air force. The Decatur Central High School Junior was known for his sense of humor and upbeat spirit. So there's no doubt that he and Jane had great rapport sweet. Jane you got to show me how the registers work old boss. Man Just told me I could start training on them. Wait you're getting a shot at the register. Your six years old sixteen Jane. Yeah but you've been working here for about two minutes you don't have to be a little biddy about it. Better twenty year old crone stripped of brains and beauty. And I'm too feeble to even coca-cola just show you the register ropes. Jane quit the jokes and help me out. Please find Danny Davis. Now you too can enjoy the special suffering that comes with financial responsibility borrow. Jane loved running at tight knit team but some aspects of the company culture irked her. Of course Jane is Jane so she confronted her superiors about it. I WANNA promotion. I'm dead serious. You're never dead serious. Look I've worked for Burger Chef for three years. I've tracked inventory. I've handled money and I trained everyone on this team. And you know what I see what Jane I see Eddie. Getting promoted. I SEE SWEET. Little Johnny getting a chance to learn the register when he's barely been here a year. I see lots of men boys really getting opportunities instead of me. Oh come on. Don't make this some kind of sexism thing I don't know isn't it? No I just. You're so busy with school graduated. I'm a grown woman who lives on her own and works over fifty hours a week. I've proven myself so now it's your turn or I'll take my million dollar work ethic and billion dollar smile to the fine team over at Dunkin donuts. You wouldn't dare. I've got a sweet tooth. I just might okay. Let's okay you are absolutely an essential part of this team. No I pretty much am the team and if you think flattery otas Jane Free Assistant Manager Sound Pretty Damn perfect boss. Jane was promoted to assistant manager in the summer of nineteen seventy eight a promising first step for the young woman who dreamed of climbing the Burger Chef corporate ladder. Jane's fight to get the promotion. She deserved undoubtedly served as an inspiration to younger female employees. Like Ruth Ellen Shelton Ruth. Do you really have a Bible and a computer textbook out at the same time is something wrong. I was told I could do homework on my breaks. Well of course you can. I was just curious religion and science. You know they're kind of like opposites the way I see it. A God made humans and humans made computers so you could argue that the Lord was actually the very first engineer. You know one day. I think you're GONNA make a great none or possibly a great astronaut. Whichever gets me closer to God Ruth Ellen. Shelton was born into a religious Indiana family on December nineteenth nineteen sixty by nineteen seventy eight. She was a quiet seventeen year old with a wide range of interests. The polite kind teenager enjoyed crafting and singing and was passionate about her youth ministry work at the Westside Church of the Nazarene however ruth was also fascinated by computer science and hope to study it in college. She took business and math courses at northwest high school hoping to gain a competitive edge in the male dominated field though she was an honor student with an intimidating course load ruth also worked a part time job after starting at the Dunkin donuts. Next door to Burger Chef. She joined the coffers. Ville St Burger Chef team by nineteen. Seventy eight. It was a busy time especially once the fun meal started coming with toys from a galaxy far far away burger chefs promotional tie in with nineteen seventy seven star. Wars was one of the first deals of its kind and the toys. Remain a collectible. Today it was an exciting time to be a kid in speedway but as the summer days grew hotter. The town's adults were Delta shocking blow at Three PM on July twenty ninth sixty five year old. Julius CIPHERS was shot dead in her own garage. Her killer was a mysterious long haired man who had come to inquire about a fine China set. The Julia had advertised at a recent garage sale. Julius husband Fred knew someone had called about coming to see the items so he innocently brought the man to meet his wife. After hearing a gunshot he ran to the garage to see Julia on the ground in a puddle of blood and the man escaping in a car. Julia was a churchgoing librarian. Who WORKED WITH THE GIRL SCOUTS? So police were mystified by her violent murder. Speedway was a safe town and Julius only possible enemy was businessman Brett Kimberlin. Julius daughter Sandra worked for Kimberlin who allegedly sexually harassed Sandra's teen daughter Julius granddaughter. Julia threatened to file a restraining order against Kimberlin and police thought the murder might have been his violent retaliation. The man who killed Julia on July twenty ninth was not came. Merlin but police suspected he was a hired Hitman. The hunt began for the speedway assassin and the investigation grip the hearts and minds of every local until September first when the speedway bombings began when we return we'll learn about the terrifying wave of bombings that rocked speedway described the fateful night that gave the Burger Chef. Murders their name now back to the story. Nineteen seventy eight started off well for twenty year old Jane. Thanks to her promotion to assistant manager at a Burger Chef restaurant in speedway Indiana but our good fortune was soon overshadowed by the terrible events unfolding in her town. The July murder of an older woman shook speedway to its core and the fall of nineteen. Seventy eight ramped up tensions to an explosive degree on reporting live from the speedway high. Parking Lot. Where there's been another detonation. The eighth and six days while the past seven have only resulted in minor injuries and property damage. The speedway high explosion has seriously injured three individuals as we await more from the police. There's only one question on our towns mind. Where will the speedway bomber strike next? The speedway bombings were a bizarre series of eight explosions. That occurred between September first in September. Sixth nineteen seventy-eight small homemade detonators. Were set off at locations like Shopping Center. A motel a bowling alley and even under an off. Duty Policeman's car. The final bombing occurred speedway high. Where Vietnam veteran? Carl de long lost his leg to others including long's wife sustained serious shrapnel wounds. The bombs components were traced back to one specific hardware store where an employee had no trouble. Identifying the man who had bought the parts it was Brett Kimberlin already a suspect in the July murder of Julius Cypher. While the bombings came to an end after the blast at speedway high it would take years for Kimberlin to be officially charged with them. In the meantime the bombings were yet another jolt. Two speedways frayed nerves. Locals couldn't believe how many terrible things had happened to their quiet suburb that year. The crimes also impacted the Crawford's Ville St Burger Chef as one of the explosions occurred. Just up the street from them. The incident prompted around of resignations. Mom another one quick today. Why am I surrounded by coward to Survive Jane? It's not like any of your little minions would know how to react in a crisis like that. I worry too but those bombs were a freak thing. We've got tons of cops stopping by the chef and patrolling the area. What if it's not a bomb? What if some deranged man with a gun breaks into the store and robs you might be unstoppable? But you're not invincible. I've been studying my Charlie's angels and now I know the best course of action is to flip my hair elegantly and then karate chop my assailant very elegantly Jane. All robbers want is cash if they come in guns. A blazing hand-over whatever's in the register. I wouldn't fight mom. I promise good girl. Jane was confident. She could overcome any challenge that got in the way of her success but her trust and enthusiasm didn't always rub off on her employees. Balancing school work and teen life was hard enough without the threat of violence in the fall of nineteen. Seventy eight Ruth Ellen. Shelton realized she had to make a change. Ruth can I pull you to take care of the Ladies Room? The trashes overflowing give Me Patience Ruth Ellen. Shelton is that a a whiff of attitude. What's wrong I just tried to resign. But it didn't work. What explain this isn't against you or anybody here. You're wonderful. Don't tell me Duncan is poaching you back. Oh they are so slimy. I'm just overwhelmed. Jane Between School and Church in voice lessons I need more time for myself. What had been say. He begged me to stay through the holidays. I don't want to but I know how insane things get. I'd feel bad creating all this extra work as your friend. I say. Follow your heart but as your assistant manager we need any help. We can get to survive the Christmas crazies. I know I know so. What just a few more weeks. Oh few more weeks kitto than you can hang up your uniform and get busy building spaceships. That's what all the cool geeks do right something like that. Thanks Jane No thank you. Ruth's good conscience. Wouldn't allow her to resign immediately. She knew she'd be putting your friends in a jam and that wasn't her style her loyalty major stay and that's how she ended up on the closing crew on the fateful night of Friday November Seventeenth. Nine thousand nine hundred seventy eight short order. Cook Mark. Silvester Fleming's wasn't supposed to work that night. Either mark was a sixteen year old sophomore at speedway high. He was the youngest of seven siblings. Raised in a strict household of Jehovah's Witnesses Mark was well groomed stylish and friendly but he tat rough freshman year at speedway in terms of his grades by Sophomore Year. In the fall of one thousand. Nine hundred seventy eight. He'd made serious improvements. His parents Robert in blondel allowed him to take a job at Burger chef but they were somewhat reluctant about Mark's new employment mark. I thought you didn't work Fridays. Are you fibbing to me no sir? I switched shifts with Ginger Haggard. She wanted the night off. So you do whatever ginger says. You got a crush your something. Oh Dad I just. I was helping around. I said you could take the job because your grades were getting better and the restaurants walking distance from home but if it's too much of a commitment I'm sorry. Okay I worry son. You're doing a whole lot better and I just don't want you more distracted than you need. Be You understand. I do mark. Fleming's tried to back out of taking ginger haggard shift but his bosses insisted he worked the Friday night. Closing shift is promised fate placed mark and ruth alongside Daniel Davis in Jane. Free as Burger Chef. It it's last customers on November seventeenth. The restaurant closed at eleven pm and the real work began for Jane and her. Well oiled team. Thank you so much for coming into Burger Chef and have a far out Friday night. Okay kids the hungry. Angry masses have been fed for another day. Danny Boy Daniel Davis Sir. Yes sir that's Ma'am yes ma'am but good. Try hit the bathrooms. I then take out the trash. Bonus points if you can do it without spilling trash juice on yourself. Ma'am yes ma'am ginger. Oh Mark. You're not ginger. I swapped shifts with her remember. And you look so thrilled with that decision. I'm on girls right. Correct and Ruth dear departing ruth. GimMe a hand with the register so we can get all this loot safely into the safe. Make sure I don't steal anything. Okay yes Ma'am Okay Dream Team. Let's shut this shutdown. We don't know exactly what the team did that night but if they followed the usual protocol the junior members would clean while Jane handled the money. All she had to do is transfer. The days profits from the registered to the safe in the manager's office. Tasca she'd done hundreds of times I think about the night was supposed to be unusual but between eleven. Pm and midnight. Something terrible happen to Jane and her team. Just after midnight in the early hours of November eighteenth alone visitor drove by the closed Burger. Chef on Crawford's road. It was a seventeen year old boy. Who Will Call Greg to protect his identity? Greg was no stranger to this location. He actually worked there alongside Jane and the others. He wasn't scheduled that night but figured he'd stop by to visit his friends and help with closing. He knew everyone would be in back shutting down so he walked to the back door. It would be locked. The back door was always locked. But he figured he'd tested out before knocking. That's when an unsettled. Greg discovered someone had left the back door open. Hello Hello guys. The restaurant was totally empty with all the lights left on combined with the unlocked back door. This was a highly unusual situation. Greg's worries doubled when he saw the restaurants empty cash register drawers scattered on the ground. Oh God Greg. Hurry to the manager's office which was in total disarray. Someone had clearly been in the safe where all the money was kept. Evidence of robbery was alarming enough. But that's not what scared Greg Most this site of Ruth Ellen Shelton's jacket on the ground truly terrified him. Greg knew that there was no way that organized festivities ruth would just leave it like that so he knew what he had to do. Nine one one. What is your emergency? Hi I'm at the Burger Chef on Crawford's hill road. I work here not tonight but I dropped by in. The place was locked in. Nobody's here. I think the place was robbed. Is it possible? Your friends just stepped out. No they wouldn't just leave not without their stuff. You like something really bad happened. Remain calm and stay at the location. The police will be there in just a few minutes. Okay but please hurry a scared. Greg waited for police to arrive a quick drop in on. His friends had suddenly spiraled out of control and the young man was now accidentally on the front lines of one of Indiana's most unsettling unsolved crimes. Next will cover the crucial forty eight hours. After the disappearance of the Burger Chef employees and the mistakes police made that would severely impact the investigation. Now back to the story in the early hours of Saturday November eighteenth one thousand nine hundred seventy eight speedway. Police officers arrived at the Burger. Chef restaurant on Crawford's fill road. They were responding to nine one one call from an off-duty restaurant employee. He'd stop by around midnight. Visit Fellow employees. Jane Ruth Daniel and mark but found the place unlocked and empty. Both Jane and Ruth's purses and coats were still inside and the manager safe had been robbed. The manager who will call to protect his anonymity soon arrived on the scene. It was up to him to figure out just how much money had been stolen. Well what's the damage I've tallied today's receipts and it seems that nearly six hundred dollars was taken. There's one hundred left in change though How much do you trust your employees? I trust them with my life. Well with my store at least we've seen this before employees even good ones that go rogue sometimes get a little rowdy skim some money off the days prophets to pick up a six pack score a little blow. Jane would never do that and she'd never let anyone else do that. I'm just saying don't be shocked. If we find him gallivanting around town tonight if they wanted to slip out and go rogue on my dime why would they leave the lights on in the door unlocked? Why would Jane and Ruth Leave Their Coats and purses fair? You sure those four kids were the only ones with access to the door. The front door stays locked after hours and the back door stays locked always. There's no way anyone else could have gotten in unless unless what well. Our dumpsters are back. If someone was taking multiple loads of trash out they might leave the door unlocked. They're not supposed to but it happens. So maybe that's how someone got inside. This wasn't the first robbery at a local fast food joint. Several Indiana spots faced issues with armed robbers striking just after closing to steal the days. Prophets though just under six hundred dollars sounds like a small amount. It would be worth over two thousand dollars today. Typically these robberies never resulted in anything more serious than stolen money and shaken employees. The fact that chain mark and Daniel were nowhere to be found was both peculiar and unsettling one speedway police became convinced the teens were endanger speedway police chief Robert Copeland knew it was time to inform their parents around one. Am chains parents? Caroline in George were told their daughter was missing as. We're Ruth's parents Rachel and John. It's unknown the Davis family was informed but we do know that speedway police took a curiously understated approach when they contacted the family of missing sixteen year. Old Mark. Fleming's whoever this is aired bid. It'd be a good reason for calling this late. I'm calling from the speedway police. Am I speaking Robert Flanigan's yes this is he. What's this about Mr Fleming's your son? Mark Works at Burger Chef on cards bill. Direct much as I'd like him not to. Yes he does as calm yet. I don't believe so something wrong. Mr. Please give us a call back when he returns taxes. If police were trying to be vague in order to prevent panic. It didn't work Robert Flemings and his wife Blondel new. Their son wouldn't stay out this late on his own Robert to speedway police headquarters sometime before dawn where he learned that mark was missing along with three of his co workers. The news was broken to him just around the time that the search effort began in earnest officers from the speedway and Indiana state police were joined by the FBI as they set out on foot by car and in helicopters to search the area for any sign of Mark. Jane Ruth and Daniel. The first break in the case came four thirty. Am When Jane. Freeze car was found. Two blocks away from speedway police headquarters though it would undoubtedly cause more worry and heartache. Speedway investigators had no choice but to inform. Jane's Mother. Caroline Mrs Free. Can you confirm that Jane drove a white? Nineteen seventy four Chevy Vega. Why are you asking? We found the vehicle abandoned on West Fifteenth Street. There's nobody in there. The keys weren't inside and the passenger side door was unlocked was gene. Usually good about locking doors. Chain always locked her doors officer. The car was dusted for Prince. But nothing of note was found. Police said to go on the fact that the passenger door was unlocked. The Vega was a two door car so the unlock passenger door would have been the only way to exit the car. Police mold over a possible theory. That would explain the scant. Bits of evidence that they'd found so far at some point between eleven PM and twelve. Am on the night of November seventeenth. One or robbers. Possibly armed broke into the Burger chef after an employee left the back door open while taking out the garbage. They held Jane Ruth Daniel Mark Hostage while they stole six hundred dollars from the safe then for reasons unknown. They forced the four young adults into Jane's Vega. Jane drove the car ten blocks before they made her park on West Fifteenth Street at that point. The captors ushered their hostages out of Jane's car abandoned. It police wondered if a second vehicle arrived to take the four missing employees to an unknown destination as dawn finally broke on the morning of November eighteenth. Investigators hoped daylight would bring more answers book when the morning shift. Employees of the Crawford's Ville St Burger Chef arrived at work on the morning of Saturday November. Eighteenth they were ignorant of the previous night's events. Local media was still unaware that Jane Daniel Mark and Ruth were missing and speedway police officers were intent on keeping that fact confidential chief Copeland. Can you describe the events that occurred here last night? Sadly the Burger Chef was burgled overnight. But as you can tell the morning crew is here to open up for the day. They've already got us in their way. So I'm sure they'd appreciate it if there weren't any reporters sniffing around two. Were there any employees hurt during the robbery? This is an act investigation in its earliest stages will let the public know of any additional details. Wants their confirmed. Thank you in the early hours. It's unclear just how much the other Burger chef employees were told about the previous night's events. Thank you all for coming in. You're a credit to the Burger Chef family. And then what happened here? Which Jane is it even safe to be here right now? What are we going to do? We're GonNa do what we always do. We're going to wipe down the counters. Clear out the trash and then we're going to greet the lunch rush with big smiles and bigger savings on value meals. Okay please. The Burger Chef team was permitted to resume business as usual and at some point on the afternoon of November Eighteenth speedway police realized. Just how big of a mistake? That was all right. So we've got elway anger out talking to the kids parents. We should focus on the crime scene photos and any prince or evidence that was found right. What's that look on your face for? They cleaned up the restaurant. What the morning. We said they could stay open today. So they cleaned up. Please tell me someone took photos of the restaurant before all that happened. I'm not sure then. Turn this Dang car around and get us back there somehow. Not a single speedway officer thought to take crime scene photos or dust. The restaurant for fingerprints. It was a catastrophic oversight. That may very well be the reason. This case is still unsolved today while other factors were at play the first forty eight hours are the most crucial part of a missing person's investigation by initially assuming the Burger Chef teens had robbed the place themselves in by forgetting to properly document the crime scene. The police had unwittingly botched their own investigation. There's no doubt that they were trying to do their best. But mistakes have consequences. Though officers returned to the cleaned up burger chef to take photos and recreate the crime scene. No notable evidence was found. As news of the four missing. Employees began to spread through town. The police were extra thorough and speedway locals began to phone in tips about what they saw in the early hours of November eighteenth. The first story came in on the afternoon of Saturday. The eighteenth from an unnamed teenage couple who were on an impromptu date on the night of November seventeenth. It was Friday night around eleven thirty air. Maybe a bit earlier. I was picking up this beauty from work to Walker home. We stopped right by Burger Chef. What was your reason for stopping? Well nobody could see us and we hadn't had any alone time lately. What happened next. We hung out on the railroad tracks nearby and these two guys just like walked up. It was freaky. They told us to go home. They said it wasn't safe. To be out late. Because of all the crime and stuff lately. Can you describe the men age clothing? Anything unique old like in their thirties. They had on these raggedy outfits. Oh the one who spoke to his head dark hair and a dark beard and a moustache. He was blowing his nose and a handkerchief at the same time. The other one didn't talk but he was clean shaven and had lighter hair. I think anyway we got out of there and cut through the Burger. Chef flawed. On the way. Did you notice anything in the parking lot? No How oh well. There was a white car parked there. It was so cool. I drive home. Babe you'd look great in that car anyway officer. Does that help it? Does I was wondering? And of course we'll have to get your permission. But how would you feel about being hypnotized? Police took the unusual step of bringing in a sergeant who is familiar with hypnosis to pull memories from the couple's minds between the interview and hypnosis police. Now confirm that. Jane's White Vega was still at Burger chef before it was driven away after midnight. They also had possible suspects in mind to thirty something men in shabby clothes one dark haired and bearded the other. Fair-haired and beardless a man named Michael Greider was also hypnotized after. He called into report. Something he'd seen around the time of the robbery. He was stopped at a red light. In noticed a small car with the windows fogged up. He could just make out the site of a bearded man in the car. Police thought the fogged up windows might indicate frantic behavior within the car like four young adults struggling to break free from captivity. However it doesn't appear that gliders testimony added any more specific details the final set of tips came from people who lived on nearby lupine drive. I saw two cars well. At one was a van with a two tone exterior. They were driving fast which concerned me because they didn't have their lights on. It seemed like the car had some kids in it and I think I heard a scream as they passed them. Both cars stopped suddenly. I think someone got out of the van and walked to the car. Another eyewitness had a slightly different variation on the story. Yeah I saw two cars driving down the street. No lights on. They definitely slowed down as they drove. But I don't know if they ever stopped. Interestingly Ruth Ellen Shelton's family also lived on Lupine but her parents said they hadn't seen or heard any of the activities that their neighbors had reported by the morning of Sunday November twentieth speedway police were still on the lookout for any sign of either the missing Burger Chef team or the two mysterious men who may have been involved with the disappearance. They would soon make a horrifying discovery more than twenty miles away. A couple who will call bill and Ellen own land in the woods near Stones Crossing road in Johnson County Indiana around three fifteen pm. On the afternoon of Sunday November twentieth. They went for a brisk autumn walk across their property. It's so nice out. You'd hardly know it was November. Oh God are you all right bill? Look down in the dirt. Those children are they. Oh please tell me. They're just passed out. I don't think so Hon. Look at this girl shirt. Hit some kind of uniform bill. We should get out of here over there bill. What's happening. There are two more over here a boy and a girl. They're dead to these uniforms. I. I think they're from Burger Chef. It's those teenagers the missing ones on the news. How in the hell did they end up? Here come on. We've got to call the police. Jane Freesheet Ruth Ellen Shelton Mark Fleming's and Daniel Davis were all found dead on the couple's property in rural Johnson County over twenty miles away from the Burger Chef restaurant in speedway the Hager's rushed home to call the Indiana state police. By the night of Sunday November twentieth. The story would transform from a missing persons case to a murder investigation that would last an entire decade. Join US next week. As we delve into the shocking ways the burger chef murder victims were killed the hunt for the mysterious bearded man and the convicted criminal. Whose ominous tips may pin him as one of the Burger chef killers thanks again for tuning into unsolved murders. We'll be back on Tuesday with part two of the Burger chef murders for more information on the Burger chef murders amongst the many sources. We used we found the book. The Burger chef murders in Indiana by Giuliani. To be extremely helpful. To our research. You can find all episodes of unsolved murders and all of their par- cast originals for free on spotify. Not only despite if already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like unsolved murders for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream unsolved murders on spotify. Just open the APP anti unsolved murders in the search bar. Several of you have asked how to help us. If you enjoy the show. The best way to help us is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter at par cast network. We'll see next time if we live till next time unsolved murders true crime stories was created by Max Cutler. In his podcast studios original executive producers include Maxon Ron Cutler sound designed by Kenny Hobbs with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carleen Madden Isabel away and Paul Moller. This episode of unsolved murders was written by Amin Osman with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon. The amazing cast of voice actors includes Susannah Corinthian. Dan Velazquez Joe Hernandez Mike Kaposi Tijuana Camacho in Harris Mark said it stars. Windy Mackenzie and Carter Roy.
Talent Tuesday: People don't have relationships with teams.
"Welcome to hacking your leadership. I'm Chris and this is talent Tuesday. This short weekly segment is dedicated to all things talent related. For this talent Tuesday episode aren't talk about a pet peeve of mine that I'm seeing Papa more and more as companies adopt remote work options for their employees. I've done human resources consulting work, specializing leadership, development and employee engagement for years, and because much of my background is in the retail space I see things that are common in many different organizations. One of the things many retail organizations have a difficult time with is creating and maintaining healthy cooperative relationships between corporate employees and field employee's. There's a tendency many companies for each of those groups to assume negative intent from the other. Not, really understanding the job of the other, not being able to walk in the shoes of the other, and sometimes even blaming their own poor performance on the other, and it goes both ways. As someone who spent several years in both the corporate and the field retail space I am one hundred percent guilty of thinking or perpetuating these things myself. When I was a teenager, there was a running joke in my sales team that if a memo went out to our corporate office that all the retail stores were closing, the response of them would be thank God. Maybe now we can get some work done. The application being that all their lives will be easier if we just went away. Even though without us, there'd be no revenue. A few years later, I found myself on a corporate human resources team. Rolling my own is at the poor execution of strategy by field employees. So it's really easy to find blaming whoever your they or them is when you don't WanNa, take responsibility for your own results. When started working in the employ engagement space much of time and effort was spent trying to break down the barriers that prevent these relationships from forming. After all, it's much harder to blame others for your own performance when you have a relationship with those people and no excuse for not solving problems with them. And there are many things you can do to cultivate these relationships I remember being a twenty four year old assistant manager in a store and incurring problem. I didn't know how to solve. None of my peers are my direct boss how to solve it either. Finally came across an email address on an internal information site that looked like it might be the right place to start. But it wasn't email address of a person. It was the email address of a team facilities at company X. or something like that. I emailed my question having no idea what would happen next. Three or four days later I received an email back from the same address with the answer I was searching for. It was clearly written by a person, but it was signed the facilities team. Years later when I was a Home Office employee and I had questions I never emailed a single team. Only people I knew all my coworkers by face in my name, and we, neither ask them in person or shoot them an email and they wrote back. They signed their own name. I had a relationship with these people by virtue of the fact that we worked in the same building, but it wasn't until many more years later that I realized what a humongous difference! The two processes had on my feelings of the problems. I was trying to solve and the people. I called my co workers. You see people are have relationships with teams. They have relationships with people. When a team layer exists! It's vocalized as a positive away of making sure questions get answered faster because several people could monitor the inbox and get back to more people quickly. It's touted as a way of ensuring nudie after all. If Jim owns this function, and we told the employees that Jim owns this function, and then Jim leaves now all over communications wrong. We have to change the name of someone else. Whereas team mailboxes can remain in place regardless of turnover on the team. But in reality is typically people's way of avoiding the relationships in the first place, and more importantly, avoiding responsibility of having potentially hundreds or even thousands of employees depend on them. If I'm having a busy stressful day. An email comes into a shared team inbox I? Can Let Myself Hook and somebody else will see it and respond. But, if someone emails me directly I have a good relationship with them, I'll feel a stronger sense of obligation to respond more quickly or risk hurting the relationship. Again people have relationships with teams. People have relationships with people. Think about the number of communication emails you get your current job that come from generic mailboxes as opposed to individual people. Do. You read them all I sure don't. Typically I read the subject and then filter eighty percent of them second focus on the ones that seem most important. I, just don't have the time to read them all. And if I'm being completely honest that lack of time, thing isn't even true because I always have time to read the ones that come from individual people. And, this means what I'm actually doing is prioritizing time in places where I feel like there's a relationship or the potential of one. We do this. My Watch vibrates Iris Two hundred times a day, and the notifications can be classified into four buckets actionable immediately actionable at some point, good info to have and not relevant. Very few emails from teams or generic inboxes go anywhere besides the not relevant bucket there often just noise a distraction from my core job, responsibilities and F I delete something that ends up being really important. There's relief all communication anyway. Many corporate employees believed that when a field employees an email from one of those generic accounts, it lends credibility information it doesn't. What does lend credibility to the information is when the comes from a person because what comes, would that email is a declaration of responsibility for whatever the ask is. It means if I want clarification on something. I can just hit reply instead of spending time trying to hunt the answer down. It means the employees sent. It has at the very least started the basis of a relationship. If your leader of people think about how many times you ask things of others while also taking personal responsibility for those requests. If you're wondering why no one seems to be executing, or maybe even reading tried taking a chance in having a relationship with the people. You're emailing instead. You'd be surprised how that effort is reciprocated. Thanks for listening and have a great day.
Ep 211: Putting out fires versus allowing your employees to, potentially, burn.
"No role place, just real personal, Renzo share four decades of combined experience to help you get a more effective leader. We've never really as a workforce spent a lot of time on making sure developing leaders will be able to share stories, experience mistakes, failures, successes. Packing your leadership. Welcomed the hacking, your leadership I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo Renzo today I WanNa talk about some feedback that I got recently and kind of related to something I don't want to get your thoughts on it too. 'cause if feedback made a lot of sense. But I WANNA know that there's more nuance to it than I think and I wanna Kinda Hash it out with you. So the feedback that I got was that in a situation where I was trying to help support some people I jumped in and started supporting them. I've said in previous podcast episodes before that leaders who jump in and start doing the work of their people in order to show that nothing is beneath them I think are coming from the wrong perspective. They shouldn't necessarily do that. There are other ways to kind of give that impression but sometimes the business of whatever you're doing shows a need and sometimes people. Have to be able to do it, and so it's important to be able to do it just not to use try to kind of get within people's good graces use it for what it's actually for, and that's what I was doing it was it was this moment where there was some additional resources needed for something and I just jumped in and started doing it and the feedback that I got was that The right thing to do would have been kind of just take a step back and kind of take a look at what all of the resources were. That were at my disposal time and move resources around instead. And the feedback I got I don't think it was wrong but the part that can stuck with me a little bit was you know some sometimes the time that it would take to get the resources sometimes the time it would take to get the resources to help solve. The problem is the same time it takes to solve the problem. And I think it's important for leaders to kind of figure out wh what is the right course of action and there isn't one right answer. Sometimes, it's one thing sometimes the other thing. I want to get your perspective on this yet what's funny I think first and foremost it's really good feedback. Is Long as it's also partnered with a and here's the result of a negative thing happens your actions, right? Because it is There there are definitely times in places where you should step in his leader and I think actually the for all of us and like my might temptation is when I like to do it as well. So like if I can engage with the customer, I can jump in and sell something I enjoy that I probably shouldn't be doing it but I, also like to do it so like I could absolutely feel that piece. Of It that sometimes as a leader you you can look at the new ones. You could see maybe like the stress and the team or the eyeball staring at you're like, how are we going to get out of this and you can't help yourself but to throw on your Cape and jump on in there because then it's like, yes, like this can be done but the reason why it's really good feedback is because There is. I think this my book but by by quotas like always allow you people the opportunity to fail but never let them and the reason why I say that ways because like you want to provide chances for people to see what you're seeing to allow there to be some kind of a risk or element where it's not going as well as it could go. But also never letting them fail means like but having enough control where doesn't go off the rails completely and in a situation like that where? We look at a situation where we can just jump in and even in our current society of Quick Communication Text Messaging walkie-talkies whatever you've got to your point to make the call to ask somebody to come out and help support to do something you could just do it and be done with it. Even. In those times as a leader sometimes, you want to take that exact opportunity to step back and bring along to see what you see or utilize the resources that you've got your disposal because while it seems like this is the thing that you should be doing there can be other parts to your business that need your attention in that only you can be the person to be doing those actual things. So I I I've been there I've I've made that mistake I've gotten that same kind of feedback from time to time I have delivered that feedback. Sometimes because there was something definitely that went wrong in the leader that was supposed to be watching this thing over here got caught up in something else, and so we had to have that conversation and then other times when it was about giving feedback but I also had stop myself and say wait let you did the right thing. Let's not get this twisted. Here's a better choice you could have made, but the choice that you made was actually the good choice because you are supporting people that needed support in the moment and you really can't go wrong maybe it could have been a better. A better use of resources by by taking a step back. But at the end of the day, you don't want people walking away feeling like well I helped my team at a point of need and that was a bad thing like no, actually that's not. That's not that that's actually a good thing, but there could have been a better choice. Sure. I've always believed that if you need to jump in to show people that you're that it's not beneath you to jump in. Then you've already kind of lost meeting. If you're if you're people need to see that from you in order to think that that's not beneath you. Then you've kind of cash the wrong light on what it means to support your people, and so I think leaders that I've seen who are really good at supporting their people they don't get judged negatively by their people when they don't. So quote unquote jump in and put their capon when they don't do that is not looked upon as negatively by them because the the leader has made it very clear what their role is and what support is and things can be seen maybe not in the moment but later on or sometimes in the moment can be seen about what was done to solve this problem that maybe couldn't done by anybody else and the more the leader kind of shows that in the day to day actions of why they're there and that their role is as a support for their people as their that leader gets. The the assumption of positive intent from their people when they're at the first jump in, it gets assumed. Oh, there's a reason they're jumping in their moving things around in the background to try to make this problem go away and so again I I don't I don't think that was the issue in this particular situation I wasn't jumping in because I want somebody to think Oh that's beneath me from jumping in it was truly a standpoint of expediency that's all it was it was it was let's put the fire out because if I allow people to put the fire out in this moment then they Then, it will get bigger and bigger and bigger, and they may not know how to now. Maybe that's a reflection on how I've taught my people to put out fires. But but that's that's a discussion for when the fire is not burning. You don't you don't let the house burned down while you talk about what caused the fire you put out first then you talk about what caused the fire and so I, think there's just a time and a place no I I, think so too and I also think that it's like in those situations communication is critical right because if you got the feedback. You because you jumped in to do something sure my guess would be that you are supposed to be doing something else. Is usually the the cause of how you get feedback. Right you're supposed to be doing a and said you were doing be next time you stick to a and we'll figure something else out for be right. So in those moments when that happens especially when you work on teams where there's where there's multiple leaders so like when you you know I I spent, you know a decade being assistant manager and multiple stores locations, and there's always a team of assistant managers and so you know that you could make a choice to go do something but typically. In retail everybody has a thing that they're supposed to be accomplishing at every hour of the day. The you're responsible for need to be keeping an eye on or whatever the case is. So in those situations where maybe this thing is that that fire is burning a little bit and you have to step into, go put it out one of two options. Hey, FYI fire all right. I can go put it out or is there somebody else who can come support it? And many times would say like, go ahead and knock it out. I'll keep an eye on things right and so at least at that point when I'm stepping out of my current responsibility to fix this thing, somebody else is aware they have been a part of making that choice and then they they then can go ahead and pick up whatever thing I might be missing. Sure how but that's a that's a that's a key element to it, but I think something else we talking about the idea of like the fires and going out. Again I think it ties back to a little bit of of my philosophy of allowing people to people to fail is like the concept of controlled burns? Those are situations where you know you can allow it. You know you WANNA have a little bit of roughness to whatever the situation is. Discomfort exactly you want people to kind of figure like well, what are we GONNA do? What are we? We're GONNA fix this and for you to say like, what are you think like let's look at this. What do you see here's what I see. How can we? In. So while it can feel like you have to jump in right away and go put it out if you have these situations where it is a controlled burn were you're allowing people to learn in the moment at a process maybe they're just starting out there trying to figure themselves out and that type of situation you let them kind of work through it. You stay close to them and you ask them how it's going and they're like is it's out of control in. Okay. Well, let's slow it down. Do. We control. What do you think we should do, and then as a leader, you help them to work through that that that that fire as it's going and then they they can then go in dowse it and maybe takes a little bit longer and maybe take you know bit more effort but it allows them to not only see it stop and pause consider it but then be a part of going to fix it then to understanding than having the recap at the end. Of, so why did we think this happened and what can we do in the future to prevent that from happening again so I think that that's That's how I look at some of those situations is like you WanNa have some elements of you kind of want the the the ambers burning a little bit all the time you want you want to allow that to happen because I if you're in that space, then that means that you have people that are developing their learning you're. Providing opportunities for people to take responsibility and ownership of something shorter maybe they're not fully competent or confident in it yet, right? Well, that's that was my role at the time. The thing that I was supposed to be doing was making sure that people knew how to put the fire out and it was going well, it was going well, and then when you because they're in the process of learning the fire got too big. It was like all right. Let's. Let's do this back A. Little Bit, and then we'll go back to learning how to put the fire. So you know the the the if the solution is not for the the fire instructor to jump in and start putting it out but instead call more firefighters in then then that's the solution but but yeah, it's one of those things where it's like you know I think every situation is different but again, this is where like you said communication's important it's important to make sure that people understand the The mindset that went into what the decision making process was, and when it comes to your when it comes to your people being able to put these fires out I think something. You saw the benefits of letting them, do it their spot on, but I think you forgot one two and that's it being able to look back on their own ability to put it out is confidence building like if they were able to do it then it's like, oh, well, this wasn't the monster that I had made up it to be in my mind. If the leaders always jumping in and helping them put the fire out. Then what they get from it is boy I didn't know how to do this without the leader involved, and so the next time it happens the first thing they're going to do is they're gonNA, call their leader in as opposed to just saying to themselves. You know what? This is big and it and it it's possible. It's GonNa get out of control, but I think the tools here. And so I'm GonNa try and and then the calling the support in becomes the plan B. Your plans see as opposed to the first line of defense. So yeah, I think I think it's equally important from a standpoint of building confidence sometimes in that learning phase when you're figuring out how to deal with fires federal it is it's not fun it's it can be frustrating it can be you know you can get caught up in the emotion of it. Because, there's a lot of dynamics when it comes to leadership in in many times, it's you know leading your people leading your peers, leading your bosses, leading other people that you work with in this bit plenty times when I've had people or leaders. Say and do something that just boiled me up. Right. In the moment I kind of like held my composure Kinda shut down a little bit. Not, GONNA I need I need time to think about this anytime to take this. All right, and then my initial reaction is like, okay like I got my thoughts together. I'm going to just tell them how I feel okay and I'm Gonna I'm GonNa lay it all out. I'm going to build my entire case I'm going to dismantle everything they said, and I'm going to make them feel like. Idiots for for doing or saying that. And get it all out and I WANNA, write it all down, and then you realize actually the right way to handle this go have the conversation, right? Right. That's not easy, right it's not easy to take what you're feeling or the emotion or the situation, and then go and sit down with somebody and put yourself in the mindset of like I'm going to deliver them probably some things they don't WanNa hear may not be prepared to here or there I. I, don't know how they're gonNA react. I don't know how they're going to you know I don't know any of these types of things. But that is a part of leadership in you know part of of leading is being able to navigate some of those hard times of those fire burns being comfortable to your point like confident in that space but you only build those things through experience through doing it. You know I'll always tell people like the only way to make better decisions is to make decisions sure like that's it. That's the sometimes sometimes it'll be really bad most of the time they will be most time they'll be good because to your point. Here's the reason why made it? And then sometimes they'll be great. But the only way to build confidence is to make more decisions. Right right. I heard a joke once a long time ago that I thought was funny it was a a joke about a a surgeon that had come into an auto mechanic place to have their their car worked on and the auto mechanic decided to come up to go to the surgeon and say you know this is always kind of boiled my blood a little bit that you probably make half a million dollars a year and I only make fifty thousand dollars a year and and we both do the same thing you know we both open up the hood of something and Figure out what's wrong and then fix it and make it work again, why is it that you make ten times more a year than than I do and the doctor replied with have you ever tried to fix an engine while it was running? And I think about this in the context of what we're talking about because the optics of what can happen when you're in the moment trying to solve these problems possibly in full view of people who don't know all the situation whether it be your clients or your customers. A lot of pro these problems that were, you can allow your people to have the opportunity to fail and then jump in if the if your clients your customers don't see you know. So to speak how the sausage is made, then they just see the result when it's done and then they're happy but but it's messy having these learning sometimes and I think a lot of leaders can have the tendency to jump in instead of taking that opportunity to step back if they believe what's happening is the curtains being lifted on the process and that's not a good a good view. Or good optics for your clients to your customers. If it was happening behind the scenes, maybe they'd be more likely to take a step back and say, okay, let's see how this person kind of fairs here and I'll jump in at the last second if I really have to be let's see how they can go about it, and so I thought about it. The same way it's is this perspective of doing the same thing isn't always doing the same thing if you're not considering the fact that there are higher level things kind of viewing the process and things that might make it. Kinda subtly different but the subtleties can change things drastically absolutely, and that brings us to this episode's One minute tax. The one minute hatch. Or if this episodes woman at hackers want you to do this is about building confidence in yourself to know whether the right solution. Any problem is to put the fire out yourself or to have somebody else do it and the way to do that. The only way to do that is to involve yourself in enough fires over time to build the context of whether or not you are needed or. Whether you're not needed because at the end of the day if you aren't needed for something and you know that your people can eventually handle it, it's important that they learn that they can, and it's important free to set them up to be able to do that. Even if it means the fire burns just a little bit longer, the more you go through this process and the more decisions you make. Far as whether or not you made the right decision or not the more likely you're going to be to be able to make the right decision when the next fire POPs up if you're seeing the type of fire for the very first time, you never seen before it's going to be very easy and very quick to assume you're the only one who can put it out but stop for a moment. Take a step back and let it go for a few minutes. Keep doing what you're supposed to be a leader, develop your people, train them, and allow them that opportunity to try to put that out and only jump in at the last second you'll know very quickly whether or not the next one of the same kind is something you needed for or than they can do it. Yeah. I think we're. A reminder like I you know you want to build your confidence and skill based on experience. So run towards the experiences when when you hear something like, Oh, I've never dealt with that before you know or somebody's working on something in you know you just so happen to either be around or you know somebody asks you your opinion you're like I have no idea. I've never done that like get. Take the opportunity to learn work yourself through it. Because again, as you collect these experiences through your career they allow you to reference them when you get into similar situations to know how to react if you need to how to step in if you need to or how to allow it to carry on a more how you can find another resource to make it happen. So yeah, I think it's a great hack and it's a reminder that. Even if these are going so easy and you're not learning anything new or seen anything different than maybe you're not looking hard enough. You're not involving yourself enough as yeah. I agree I also think I wanna make something clear to. Any time as a leader if your job as a leader, if you consider that to be developing your people training or people making sure that you're kind of grooming the next generation of leaders I, don't want to say that every time you jump into, do it yourself you're doing the wrong thing but every time you jump into it yourself, you are saying I'm okay with losing this opportunity to do the training and the coaching and developing. So you're saying you know what? The moment, the fire, whatever that is is large enough to where I'm okay with not having this other opportunity to train coach and develop and groom, and so if your job is leaders to do that and you. WanNa make sure whatever if you worked thirty or forty or fifty or sixty hours a week, whatever it is, you WanNa fill the majority of that time with Your Job as leader training coaching and developing, and so while you might look at it as a victory that you put out that particular fire, you need to hold that in the context of it's also wasted time you wasted time that you could have used a train coach develop sometimes it's necessary to get rid of that moment and just put the fire out but you should always try to air on the side of how can I use this as an opportunity to train coach develop as opposed to how do I use up To build my own firefighting skills absolutely with that brings us to the end of this episode, this hacking, your leadership on the Renzo, and I'm Chris we'll talk to you all next time.
Ep 110: Peer accountability is more effective than leader accountability.
"No role place. Just real personal Renzo share four decades of combined experience to help you become a more effective leader. We've never really as a workforce, spent a lot of time on making sure developing good leaders will be able to share stories, experience of mistakes, failures, successes. This is packing your leadership. Welcome to hacking your leadership. I'm Chris Inaba Lorenzo and Lorenzo on this episode. I'd like to talk a little bit about the power of peer accountability. So my kids are doing swim lessons, and I was noticing we cover will switch where we went from these individual lessons to group lessons and the individual lessons were. They were doing okay, you know, my my son is not the first one to jump in and get things get things going when it comes to to swim lessons. And so we went to a group lesson and what happened with him was just an amazing at how quickly he excelled compared to win. It was a one on one lesson one lesson with with the instructor. It was very, what was doing every could to stall or get out of doing things when it was a lesson with several other children, his age, all it took was seeing other people, his age start to swim on their own. And there was this light bulb that clicked on him where it was almost like, I don't want to be the one guy not doing this sure. And so he was he was all over it and that's kind of how you learn to swim. And now he's a fish, you know, now he's all over the place. We haven't been water polo. We haven't been swing several days a week, but but when we were doing the swim lessons, that's what it took. It took the the pure accountability of seeing this group of people that he felt like he was supposed to be a part of, and he wanted to make sure that he was not left behind and I don't think it would have happened as fast. He wouldn't have learned as fast if we just continue to stick with the the one on one lessons, and it made me think of a lot of parallels between that and and my my work life, my business life and how much more likely people are to respond to literally anything, whether it be something new and a new initiative, new, a new way of doing things, a new organizational objective, whatever it is people I think are more likely to. Respond when the structure of the objective or the the movement comes from their peers as opposed to from their boss. And I'm wondering if you've seen this in your own personal life, if you agree with it, do you think there's, you know times when it's gotta be from the boss, not from the peers, or do you think this is kind of like the pure calorie count ability really is the end all be all of motivation? My gut reaction is that it is the is more motivating when you have your peers or a team, you know that are challenging you to do something or that are a part of a larger movement. However, bosses or very motivating as well, especially because they can own your career, you know? Sure. They could be the decision maker in regards if you get to come back tomorrow or not. So it kind of depends on how you look at it. Let's just take the idea that there is a good team. Maybe they're not a great team. Maybe it's, you know, not spectacular, but you've got a good team of people and you've got, you know those that kind of excel and you've got maybe those at either shouldn't be on the. Team or kind of just barely pulled their own weight, or you know, kind of lack. Let other people pull their weight. I think in in a collective of team like that, you know when it comes to peer accountability that that is the single thing in my opinion that will move that team for the better. You know when when you have an environment like that, I think collectively the boss can can do so much in in do so much to make things consistent, make things fair, you know, kinda give a give good clarity from a direction standpoint. But at the end of the day, the person sitting next to you or standing next to you or in the cubicle next to you, or that's just assigned to your team. Many times you know, teams nowadays are are virtual, but Liger know that there's a collective goal was motivating your peer to either challenge you or push you. Is it because they're the boss and they said, so it's because they, they want to win as a team. They want everybody to get better. And so I think that people take that type of feedback and that. Conversation a lot more serious. I've, I've just seen it in in all levels of all types of teams is that when a when appear to peer conversation happens, there tends to be more action. People didn't take it more seriously and it doesn't have kind of that that tinge of because I'm the boss leader standpoint that usually happens in those conversations. Yeah, I, I agree with you completely, but it seems like when that happens, they're not doing it because of some sense of what's right. They're doing it because they don't wanna get left behind in. So in essence, it's like, I don't. I don't wanna be singled out as the one person not doing this thing in in a in a space where three or four other people who are my peers are doing it. So I'm gonna do it. I know that was the motivation behind my son doing swim lessons, and I've seen it in people at work where the the, the person who is the one least likely to perform kinda gets on board reluctantly because they don't wanna be the one person who's not doing it. And I'd like to believe that it's from a, you know, a sense of nobility, not wanting to. To let the team carry him or her wanted to make sure that they pull their own weight because they're friends with their peers and they, they wanna make sure that they are not in the doing right by their peers, but I can't help it. Sometimes feel that it's just because they, they don't wanna get left behind. Yeah, those definitely an element of peer pressure per se. Right? Where again, it it's, you know, it's it's behavior or action due to what others are doing. You know, whether they not like in in this woman example, whether they know they could have pushed him that could have been like, hey, come on like you. You gotta swim to come like we're all getting inlet all swim together. That didn't necessarily happen. He just sought himself and didn't want to be the one kind of left out and wanted to be like everybody else. I think that that's a that could be healthy element of peer pressure and it's what is one of the reasons why you know, I enjoy playing sports on teams. Is that there there is this feeling of togetherness? Is this feeling of loyalty there? Is this feeling of like you don't wanna let down your. Teammates. So you're going to push yourself harder or you're going to, you know, think more clearly, you know, you're going to react in a way that's more beneficial to something bigger than yourself. So there's a lot of value in and I believe in team sports and teams because it build that sense of the loyalty relationship at pride. So yeah, I absolutely believe that peer pressure is an is a piece of it. But I also think though that like if the relationships are good, like I think peer pressure, it may be enough to spark things happening. But if the relationships are good amongst the peers, then it becomes the person's feeling pressure to not be the one left out. They feel the responsibility up to be the one who's adding value to the team. You know, in the way that I've seen it play out in kind of the professional world. Many times is, is sometimes in development, you know, you've got peers of people. So if your leader of leaders, you have leaders. That are in different places in regards to the development professional, personal maturity, their background, the experience, that type of thing. And so in in a perfect fantastic environment which you want to build is a team where people have good enough relationships where they have each other's back. They have some loyalty to them. They wanna take care of one another. Yes, people get frustrated. Yes, people in leaders, you know, peers do dumb things sometimes or things that they shouldn't do, or they're just lazy that day. You know, they're just doing enough to get by. Those are all things that happened, but but I believe that when when peer accountability really, really works well is when there's that loyalty in that relationship there amongst each other and you've kind of got each other's backs and you know, you're kind of nudging the personal long linked Luke. I needed to get this done like, hey, like, you know, like you're letting the team down. Like I, I need you to step up and perform this way because not just are you may be causing the frustration on my side or causing me to be. Questioning which doing, but you're also causing the team to be less effective or less productive, you know. So like I'm a fan of probably because like yourself spend a lot of time in the assistant manager ranks, right? I love the players only meetings the ones worst, like everybody's in the room, but the big boss because then it's like you get some real transparent conversation. You can. You can challenge each other and you can do it in a way where it's not like I'm telling on you because like out, like, you know, the big bosses here type of thing. So like for me, when I think about peer accountability, pure relationships in all that type of stuff. I do my best to make that space for a team, make sure that they have time together where I'm not in the room because I, I want them to have those types of conversations because I know how powerful they were for me when I was a leader coming through teams. Right. Well, I would say that you, you need to good relationship with your team in order to be able to do that. Otherwise, it comes off like you're leaving the room and and one of the people in the room is gonna is gonna fill you in, you know, the one one person that room is going to be singled out as the one is going to go back to you and say, what was going on unless you've unless you have a great relationship with that team and they understand that you're doing it for them pep slowly. Well, I think too. It's like it's, it's. How do you set up that space? Right again, it's one of those things where I, I am transplant. I'm a front about it, right? I'm transparent about it. I'll say like, hey, you know what? We've got a meeting like, I want you guys to handle that right? Like I want you guys to be able to, you know, put your plan together, have the conversation you know, built in strategy, I'm more I'm more than expecting that. You'll have differences of opinion kind of work through all of that. And then the next time all of you get together, I'll be in that meeting in that we can collectively talk about all of it. So you not being there making sure that they understand why why you are not there as a leader is just as important as not showing up and then hoping that they will have those conversations, right, you you, you know. You wanna tell them that this. I'm doing this deliberately. I'm giving you guys space, and you know I'm giving this team space because I want you to have real conversations, and I want you to work through opinions and I want you to work through ideas and I want you to battle it out a little bit because I know that when I'm in the room, some of you will not speak up. Some of you will not want to get somebody else in trouble. Some of you will not say how you're feeling exactly like I get that. I understand that because I've also been in that space before I want you to have that space, and I want to not be in the room because of that. So that when I do get into the room where I come into the next meeting, we can kind of discuss where rats strategically and you can work through those types of personal relationships or professional opinions. I think there are a lot of a lot of leaders out there who they, they tried to be a part of the team instead of leading the team, and I think it can be really difficult transition, especially if the leader of the team was once part of the team and they got promoted another another running the team. It's like they want they. One of the responsibility of leading the team, but they don't want to leave behind the good feelings on the Camry and the and the the, the kumbaya moments they had with their peers. And in essence, that's that's a symbol of of really healthy team is one that was able to promote from within and respect a leader that got promoted. And at that leader MRs those moments because it needs those moments happened when they were they when they were part of that team. But I, I think it's really difficult for a leader to maintain that. I, in fact, it's almost impossible for a leader to not only maintain the authority they need to lead, but also be a part of those moments as a team still without killing those moments for the team to continue on their own. And and so I- some really great leaders, they're the ones that really know how to let go. They know how to say, you know, my role is different now. It doesn't mean that I, I'm not friends with these people and doesn't mean they don't care about these people. It means that there will be things that they do amongst themselves. I am not part of by virtue of the fact that I am the boss and that is healthier than trying to include yourself into this. This group of people that used to be a part of out of out of some sense of showing the ham. I'm still one of you still part of you will know you're not, you're not one of them anymore and and the more you try to be the more it hurts that collaborative process and it can be really difficult, especially if the role that you're in a leader like your with your team every day, right? You know, in certain jobs in areas where it's the same office, it's the same store. It's the same place, like whatever that is when you are working side by side with them, the majority of the time you know the the instant attraction is to want to be in all those meetings into into be a part of all those things and kind of keep your hands in whatever the businesses that you're into. So it can be really, really difficult. I think also the ideas that you continue the peer relationship piece, but you do it at the next level up. So. Oh, now you build those relationships. You have those conversations, you know, with your current peers. But again, that can be difficult as you continue to move up the career ladder because they become less and less of them and the, you know, their availability to to talk to you, whether it's again the same office, same floor, the same store or via phone, whatever that looks like. It's not as a valuable as it is when you are, you know, with a team in the same place working together daily. So you just have to be a lot more proactive and purposeful with with building some of those relationships that way, having that level of dialogue and conversation, there's not a, there's not a day that goes by where I don't personally speak with at least two of my peers, and there's only four of us total, right? Like so for me, I'm one of four in every single day I speak with at least two of them just because again, it's keeping that that relationship. Talking through things that are going on checking in on strategies, but but maintaining that level of communication of relationship is what for me fills that void. Right? Because it is. It's tough to go from being a part of a team really enjoying that work. Knowing what happens in that room, understanding the dynamics, you know, getting getting kind of the excitement of building a strategy talking through a challenge in it, like all of that stuff that can happen in those rooms with those teams is is a lot of fun. And it's kind of what many of us when you stay within a certain industry, whatever that is like you kind of, you know you professionally grow up in that environment. You know exactly what's going on on the other side of the door so is extremely, you know, difficult to not want to to to pop in and be a part of all those things. And then you you do find yourself on the outside. When you kinda hear some of the inside jokes or the laughing or this or that, and you're like, yeah, like totally missed. It wasn't in there for it, but you know, but again, but, but that's okay because you. You want to be able to provide that environment in in that opportunity for that team, the same that it was provided to you? Yeah, I think the that process, you just talked about about speaking with your peers every day. One one or two of them every single day. I bet there are times when you've done that. When you could have found out the answer without talking to them, you could've, you know, pull up a website or a company policy or whatever, and I, it's not. It's not about just knowing the answer the process of how you get to the answer is equally important if not more important than just having the answer because that process is what drives the relationship. Knowing the answer is just let you get your job done, but but the relationship that was required to be there that you had to leverage and that you had to make sure that that person knew you were kind of subconsciously leading that person know that, hey, I, I look at you as a resource when I call you and you have an answer for me. I look at you as a resource. I want you to. Look at me the same way albeit resource for you, and there's something powerful about that that you don't get by just looking at the answer in a book or on a website or just knowing it. And I think the the leaders that do that. Well, the ones that that leverage that even when they don't necessarily need it all the time, those are the ones that strengthen those relationships. And then when they when they do actually need it and there is no policy, there is no book there. There's a lot of ambiguity around something and you have to navigate those waters. Those are the ones that are able to navigate through it better because they have this group of people that look at them as appear and that kind of they helped them into the fold and they'll solve it together in full transparency. I will tell you seventy five to eighty percent of my conversations with my peers are how how was your day? What's going on, right? Like, what are you getting into, or you know, I it has is actually not a request for an answer or to talk about any strategy to specifically say like, hey, what's going on holiday going so far? What ends up happening in that personal relationship is, is we start to discuss are. Days and the work that we're doing, and then we get into talking about business and some of those strategies and that type of thing. And again, but when it comes to the pure accountability piece, what's nice about it is that I have caught myself many times talking to somebody on the phone and say, hey, what's going on with? How's your day? And they start rambling off. Some of the things are working on and I go, oh, man, I gotta get that done two or a great idea. I, I need to get off the phone right now and get that turned in like it's happened a lot of time. So for me, there's also the element of peer accountability where when I'm just asking people how they're spending their time, many times it either reinforces how I spend my time or challenges me on where I should be spending my time. So I get energy. I get a motivation out of that as well. I completely agree. And with that, it brings us to this episode's one minute hack the one minute pack. Okay. For this episodes, woman hack hear what his what I'd like for you to do think about the next couple of days that you have coming up and I want you to purposefully dedicate twenty five percent of the time to allowing your team to get together collectively without you not to make this successful, you're gonna have to do a little bit of pre work. So on your next upcoming meeting, I want you to discuss this and say, hey, in my time, as a leader, I have found great value in working with peers in learning from others and having a chance to have conversations without maybe the boss in the room so that you know strategies can be talked through opinion, can be talked through with nobody feels like they may have a an opinion that maybe you know not favored or it could feel like maybe you're telling on somebody or that type of thing. So give it a little bit of preface, but tell the team. This is what I wanna do going forward for the next couple of meetings, and I want to dedicate specific time to allow all of you to talk through some of these things. Without me in the room because I know as leader when I step in many times that I am exchanges. So have that meeting have that conversation at your next meeting in preface the meetings coming forward. Then as leader what you to do is give them that time? I feel it's probably about twenty five percent of the time would be good for the first or second meetings over it's an hour long meeting, give them fifteen minutes. If as a full day meeting, give them a couple of hours in may seem like a lot of time. But when it comes to your team, getting, you know, on the same page collectively wanted to drive strategy and work through personal dynamics relationships. There's no more important time than how they work collectively together and how they feel about each other and building some of that loyalty. I think it's great women at hack. I also think it's important that you don't come in and try to debrief that time when you get back. All right. So what did you guys talk about? You know, it's not about that. It's their time, and then you move on with the next the next part of the agenda almost like it didn't happen the the more. Reinforce that you're not gonna come back and try to debrief it. The more confident they will be in kind of being vulnerable with each other and kind of bearing what they're what they're really feeling. Because the first couple of times, if you don't have a strong culture of this, they're not going to. They're going to talk about things that don't matter at all. They're not. It's not going to business related. They're gonna. They're gonna shoot the breeze or talk about personalized, and that's that's okay too. Because those are the things that Bill relationships amongst your team, so don't try to get involved. This is you're, you're basically saying, I'm taking myself out of this. I wanna be part of this team, but it's also equally important that you as a team rebel to function without me in the room. And so this is your time for you. Yup, absolutely. And with that, it brings us to the end of this episode. This hacking leadership Lorenzo, and I'm Chris and we'll talk to you all next time.
The Front Table: 5/7/19
"Thanks for reading and listening with us on this week's frontier. Both from the seminary Cobb bookstores in Chicago brows, each week's front table and subscribe to our free weekly Email newsletter at some coop dot com for more serious books for curious readers spring is in the air and selections from the co ops moms, dads, grads and kids two thousand nine hundred gift guide are on the front table for all of your spring seasons. Holidays and special occasions, coop assistant manager, Atlanta Jones takes us in and beyond the guide for a reader's look at motherhood and other books. Expanding our notions and misconceptions of mothering just in time for mother's day. Backyard. Coops fron table with coop. Assistant manager Atlanta Jones, Lena, it's newly spring, and in abundance books all over the place for every occasion, including this upcoming mother's day is found in the cops spring moms dads grads and kids, don't leave them out gift guys. You've got recommendations from the guide and a few other lesser known and wider reaching books on the subject of mothers, and it's their entirety. What might we give that mom or we didn't know we were missing well, the first thing that sticks out to me tell talk anyone's ear off about is Sheila had his motherhood. It's just out in paperback. Of course, we had big reading group around it last year here at the store, because of a bunch of us had read it separately. And then wanted together and share our thoughts on how is able to address motherhood, and a much more comprehensive way than many works out there right now. It's talking about motherhood as a form of creativity as a form of caregiving, totally outside the nuclear family, how can one mother in the world. Even if one has. No interest in bearing children raising children. And I think we all brought different experiences to it. And I think as a result pretty much mother, non mother, people who are considering motherhood who've never assumed they would ever be mothers, who are unable to be mothers, men, women trans people can read this book. It's absolutely fantastic and reading gave me to a new comprehension of mothering and motherhood, and think about what it means just to make, and how that can be its own kind of giving life. So we do have in addition to motherhood, a couple of other maybe more straightforward gift ideas for moms in the gift guide course, our and maybe the world's all time bestselling memoir, becoming by Michelle Obama for the single mom who hasn't that yet, you and I both or looking forward to their Mary Gabriel's ninth street, women biography of half a dozen female artists who were major players in abstract expressionism in the movements beyond minimum minimalism, as well. Has just been a lighted out by history. And we are looking at lea- crasner lane to Kooning grace heart again. Joan Mitchell and Helen Frankenthal are, and be at both you and I are really looking for reading this column big book, so on the summer break to get to it. But, like Sheila had his motherhood Elena. You have some other books here assembled force today, that aren't in the gift guide, but no less are incredibly thoughtful gifts, not just from others, but for any reader, maybe about the concept of motherhood more, generally drew a couple books some from our stacks, and a few from our display tables, up here, that look at motherhood and parenting with a bit of kind of questioning what, what motherhood in parenting are today and what assumptions were making the conventions are. And I thought you're not just looking for a memoir to give your mother, but want to investigate what mother is little deeper. These would be some picks for you. The first one point two is mother's verb by Sarah. Not this is just out. She is a historian by trade. And so she has dug in to looking at mothering across many different groups. We have Jim way groups. We have enslaved people, South Carolina rice, plantations, tenement, dwellers. She's looking at what mothering is in those different contacts, at the same time that she's narrating the birth of her child and the first few months of this child's life. So it's kind of the John ra- Bendon exploration of mothering at work like what she is going through what she's learning about herself, which is learning about her family. And so this is really fantastic one to pick up, especially for anyone who's looking for a new form to address new content. The next one point two here is sexually from twenty seventeen. It's called white gold stories of breast milk sharing by Susan falls published by university of Nebraska press. This is a book written by anthropologist who had no intention of writing about breast milk sharing. But then she found herself in a breast milk sharing network. In the southern US and decided the experienced seemed of rich enough to her to explore it a little more in depth. And so she looks at breast milk sharing networks in the southern US and how this sharing can be understood within a capitalist framework, there notions of commodification scarcity value placed on this breast milk. But at the same time, it counters that the breast milk sharing counters that framework who can be a healthy mother, who's capable of feeding their children by breaking open access to breast milk. She says, milk sharing can be treated as a network as a kinship practice as descent as a form of bio capitalism, as effective labor as cyborg in as a header ARCHE as show of agency or as a thrilling performance of trust. She, she really sees it as a site of both capitalism at work, and then undermining capitalism at the same time understand that the communities who are participating in Brisbane, sharing or people who might otherwise have all. Kinds of fractions divisions among them, but can create kind of network. Absolutely. She one of the things she talks about is this notion of community that is cultivated by this group of people who really have very little in common other than needing nutrients for their children, next book, I wanted to point out homeland maternity US security culture in the new reproductive regime by Natalie fixmer, or as out now from university of Illinois press this one is looking at how national security rhetoric either implicitly or explicitly places demands on woman's body. So how non reproductive bodies, and overly reproductive bodies are viewed as threats to nation and national security. She's looking at the female as citizen, whose role would be to populate the country with the right type of citizen's demands, like that are not new. But she's looking at it right now in the US, and particularly in combination with immigration. So. Which immigrants are allowed to reproduce. What does it mean for an immigrant to reproduce? What is the rhetoric around children of immigration children, brought to the country children are born in the country by from immigrant? Parents, she's really examining the state of that national security rhetoric at the moment, and she's really looking for ways to subvert these particular notions of maternity. So how to extract them from the framework that they're currently within how we can look at mothering and parenting and giving birth not just as a problem of crisis identity surplus or deficit. But by breaking through that framework, we can then address the actual problems that face mothering whether it's access to education or childhood health and making motherhood worked by Kaitlan Collins, Princeton University press from this year. She is doing a comparative study of working mothers across number of different nations. We have Italy Germany, the US. Sweden, and she's exploring what work family. Valance is I think with the ultimate aim of saying that no surprise, the US has abysmal family. Leave policy is in terms of providing for mothers, fathers and families. She's looking at ways that this is not inevitable that other countries are doing better than us. And how historically the idea of a working mother is not as not as much an affront to our identity. She mentions in east Germany because of the mandate for mothers to work. Doesn't have the same kind of stigma that a working mother has here in the US because of that of problematic history. But by placing it all in historical context, she asks well is this necessary that the conditions to be as poor as they are today by understanding how they came about how can we make it better? So it's very evident for look selection here of book. About mothering and motherhood that mother's day is a holiday, no matter who we are. We can all pre sheet or enjoy if not, you know, while sorrow in question our political systems. Always time for that. Everyone's got something to do on may twelve and if mother's day is not your thing, Elena, any last looks at the gift guide for books beyond may twelve while taking a leisurely scan of our gift guide here. One that jumped out to me is the five year diary, designed by tomorrow shop son and the setup is nothing to revelatory, but for every day of the year, they're five spaces for an entry so that you can write a few sentences about, you know, may I ever year for five years. So that when you're writing on year three look back for the previous two years. See what was happening on me. I the previous years, and it's a pretty simple concept, but I'm now in my second, duration of it. I guess I'm year six or seven of the diary, and going through those first five years being able to look back and see exactly what it gives a really interesting shape to my life, like breakup, quitting jobs. Getting jobs of meeting dogs. There's really. A lot of those. Minimal effort. If you're trying to encourage your graduate to start writing daily really, you know, two sentences per day, and I can't envision my life without it. And that helps me invasion, my the life, I have lived. I've given it as gift many times, and every time with great feedback. So check out the gift guide, Chaz sections for moms dads graduates, and kids. So that's available in stores here now and online, it's coop dot com. Thanks elena. Thank you. Call them those books, again, were homeland return ity by Natalie fixmer, as white gold by Susan falls, making motherhood work by Caitlyn Collins, and mother is a verb by Sarah not and find more for moms dads, grads and kids in our moms, dads, grads, and kids, two thousand nineteen gift guide now available at the register and some coop dot com. And if you want to see a nearly five year. Dire in action. Check back at the co-op this June for Katherine Scanlon 's ogg nine dash fog forthcoming from fair Strauss. And drew a rearranged in edited anonymous found diary written by an eighty six year old woman right here from Illinois till then hear more from the co-op widely regarded as one of the best economic bookstores in the world, including conversations with scholars and writers on books, you won't see or hear about anywhere else on open stacks the seminary caught bookstore podcast available now wherever.
Ep 113: Failure is unavoidable. Talking about it makes it easier. ...usually.
"No role place. Just real personal Renzo share four decades of combined experience to help you become a more effective leader. We've never really as a workforce, spent a lot of time on making sure developing good leaders will be able to share stories, experience of mistakes, failures, successes. This is packing your leadership. Welcome to hacking your leadership. I'm Chris, I'm Lorenzo and Lorenzo on today's episode, I'd like to talk a little bit about failures that's not good. No, no, not at all. Not at all. And, and I'm glad to have you on here because as speaking as a person who's never failed, I kind of want to give some context audience from a person whose life is riddled with failure. And so I thought maybe you could take the lead on non kennicutt. No, we we, both of us have had considerable failures in our careers. Most of them have been ones we've been able to move through some of them have been career altering or have changed the trajectory of where we were going. And I think it's important to talk about those because I don't. I know that there's, there's nobody. I know that is in a position of leadership for a long period of time who has not had these happened to them who's not had failures, sometimes they're not within their control. Sometimes the system works a certain way and and a person becomes collateral damage is not good when it happens, but it does happen and sometimes you we get over zealous and we make bad decisions. And we think it was the right decision at the time and ends up not being. And there are a lot of things that can lead to these these failures. And I think it's kind of important to touch on them so that people can kind of if if you're going through something like it right now, you can kind of take it with a grain of salt and look at kind of the light at the end of the tunnel and how this isn't necessarily gonna. By the end of the world, but but once you start here as you can you, can you think of anything in your past that was that you look back on as a failure, even if you wouldn't change it now yet, even if you're happy where you are now, but you look back on in the moment you're like alive. I f up yet will it's funny because it's one of those things where there are the really clear times that you failed. Those will usually things where you attempted to do something if you had a strategy and it didn't go the way you want it to go or you know it didn't go at. All right. Like those are the easy ones to talk about when it comes to just failure fatty. I think what I immediately went to though was when we're times that I failed as a leader and a lot of those it, it took me maturing and growing and take it on responsibility, and then looking back and going home, my God, I, I can't believe I did that. Like I, I wouldn't like to right now if I worked for me now I would probably fire me, you know, like it's it's, it's funny, but it's also like. To your point like it, it changes trajectory. It really challenged, you know who I am and what I stand for, and the one that popped into my head right away was there was a time when I was a a pro audio supervisor of a major music retailer, and I had a team of commission employees, and I was off one day which in that commission environment you to get one day off and and my team a couple couple members on my team got into like a little like karate chopping session, I guess, behind like the register, like some is it some smart somebody said some smart. Somebody like, you know, push somebody with an elbow, somebody Sashi kick you. They're like, you'll never kick me then ended up kicking them and it was like silly dumb stuff. That's like, what are we doing here? This is a job but don't kick each other. You know what I mean? Like even though we may be in our mid twenties, we are adults like this is not what we do here. And I remember coming back the next morning and the general manager pulled me in the office. They had you talk about these employees, and this is what happened yesterday from my understanding and like you know, like this is the physical nature like they're hitting each other. And like that's not that can't happen. Right. And this is not good in. I remember sitting there in the chair like being defensive of like, I'm sure it was a misunderstanding there really good. I'm sure something was like, I'm just spewing excuses as to why it would be okay for one employee to kick another employee. Right. Can you can you on text of what year this is? Because because I can your feelings happening now and both employee's being immediately led out of the building, never to return. You come back the next day and you'd be jolt Lorenzo. You have to employees go today in this zero tolerance era. But what year was this would have been the summer of two thousand one. Okay. A while ago and it was a, you know, music retail commission, sales environment in like wild to employees kicking each other, not in a way that was truly like we're fighting right. It was more of like extended horse play. It's still physical contact on another human being. And you know, yes, there was a lot of silly stuff that we would do back then. And yes, a lot of that stuff is completely unacceptable and would not fly today. But, but I remember being very, like protective and very, like personally emotional about the fact that my general manager was telling me I had to go talk to my team and write them up for for kicking each other. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. Like, why would I like this is like, you know, come on like, why are we in? I just remember like looking back on it, I was like, what a complete failure of leadership like like in what realm that I live, where I felt that like physical contact on a coworker would be okay, and then I'm sure it was a misunderstanding and all these types of things. But it wasn't until probably a year later a year and a half later when I had moved on to another organization, and I had a mentor in and they were really talking to me about, you know, behavior in the workplace, and there was some actual training that I went through and things like that where I was like. Man, like what a horrible call that was really was a failure of leadership back when I did that, and I fought that and you know what happened. I ended up writing them up because when my GM wanted me to do, I ended up being really salty about it and it was that I held onto for long time until I was able to reflect on realized how bad it was. When you were writing them up, you're running up from the standpoint of, yeah, I don't want to do this, but I'm being made to do this only with you guys hide, totally bald with authority. I was like, I can't believe he's making me do this. You guys know better, right? Yeah, all the wrong things. One hundred percent. All right. So the first time I can think of in micro that I look back on his failure and I'm telling you this is a, this is a cringe-worthy failure. I don't believe I've ever mentioned before in this podcast of this is this is a little rough for me here. I was eighteen years old and I was a kind of like a co supervisor of a department of about fifteen computer sales. People and it was I'd never been in any type of leadership role at all. This is kind of like a kind of like an honorary leadership role. It wasn't. It wasn't someone who was responsible to where the businesses it was kind of like when the leaders gone, you're in charge kind of thing. And the leader was gone for an extended period of time, two or two and a half weeks. And so I took on a lot of the responsibility of that leader for that time for the most part I did. I did well, but there was a meeting that we held somehow the conversation change too good employs versus bad employee's and I then thought it would be a smart idea to subjectively force rank everybody in the department publicly. I kind of ride it on the whiteboard as far as who I thought were the best employees just write down, you know, want one through fifteen government were and an I wanna I wanna like beat myself up. Just repeating that happened. It's so embarrassing. It's in at the time. It felt perfectly fine at the time. It felt like, yeah, you wanna be up there then get up there. You know, like if you, if you're in the bottom and you want to be the top and get at the top. And I think where it was coming from at the time was I, I've always been, you know, followed the golden rule of treat people the way you want to be treated. And at the time that I was at in my life, I would have responded to that meaning if I was in a room and there was a force rank and I was towards the bottom of a force rank. That would let a fire under me like I would make. I'd be like, that will never happen again and I will. I would get up, but I would make that happen. And the failure of leadership was in thinking that everybody wants to be led the way I wanna be let and it's something that I that I continued to struggle with for many years, and I still work on today is just this this concept of just because it worked would work on me, doesn't mean that it would work on everybody. And so it was a terrible move of leadership, and it caused several employees at the bottom of that list to disengage further from. Because they knew they thought that they were disliked or they were, you know, they just weren't of the. They didn't have the level of gumption that some other employees have where they can take information like that and use it to to to further themselves as opposed to just sinking down deeper into their whole. And so obviously I would I would never ever ever do that again, but it was it was a huge, huge failure, and I got talked to about it afterwards. I got talking to by several people when that leader returned like almost incredulously, like what on earth were you thinking for? And these are people that look back on as not being great leaders themselves. So the fact that those people were gonna look at me like, what are three thinking is like further further drives the point home that that was a terrible, terrible leadership move yet it. Oh, it's it's interesting because as you telling us story and thank you for sharing Chris, you may now have a seat right this failures anonymous, right? It is a, it really highlights really from a leadership standpoint. I think probably if I had to guess the vast majority of those times when it's either a failure or you'd like nowadays, it's kind of like they'll say it's a career Staller or a career stopper like we won't even use the word failure necessarily. Right. But when you make some of these decisions or you do some of these things that way, I think what you were just saying is that when when the work is approached from a leadership standpoint. In a way that is, well, this is what I believe, or this is how I like to lead, or I would like to be led, and therefore I'm going to assume that of others. I think to me this probably where people have the most amount of kind of quote, unquote failures or the most amount of opportunity in regards to leading people. I think we've learned and talked about it over time, especially on this podcast around understanding that, you know, just because it's black and white to you or just because like this makes total sense, or you found success like this before doing it this way, or this is the way that you were successful doing that as a leader. Therefore you must do it this way without taking into account who they are experienced tenure. You know, overall dynamics of the relationship, you know what motivates motivates people, you know, without taking all those things into account, I think you fight a very up hill battle. And as I'm reflecting and we're talking through this, I'm thinking of many leaders that have, you know, I would consider failure even like, you know, moving onto maybe another job, another organization to something else because of the fact that you can't produce the expectations of the role, right? Because your people don't follow you because you approach to leadership in that type of way, right? We've worked. We both would for organizations in the past where there was a revolving door of certain leaders where the the the person went from being viewed as one of the one of the best leaders of the area to then suddenly gone in a in a in a six month period. And typically what that means is they came in hard and they were able to to turn stuff around, and it was there was this shock and awe. Them and people didn't know what to expect. So they, they tried their best to like, you know, fit the role that they were being asked to fit even if go went against everything, they stood for even to win against a personal values and they did it and for as long as they could, then they couldn't do it anymore. And then the leader couldn't produce the results anymore without becoming harder and harder on their people. It wasn't leadership. It was driving and the eventual. I mean that that works short-term, it works for months and then it stops working and then you have that revolving door. And so there are, you know retail sales leadership is is a very small world, and I can't tell you how many people I have on my in my linked in connections who are my age and who are in high up sales leadership roles, but have had twenty of them over a period of twenty five years. And it shows that they can go in. They can make short term results happen by doing things the wrong way. And then they get moved on quickly because they realized that the results are not are not sustainable. And they go find somewhere else, right? Because you know what ends up happening is they can't evolve themselves like getting, you know, there is many times where that is what's needed right to to get a team going, and it's not necessarily that it's, it's that it's bad to be driven to to motivate people to, you know, have higher standards to have accountability, things like that. It's just understanding that you know you move through that process like all of the processes. And once you've kind of got to the point where the team is beyond those elements will now you have to layer on now you have to approach the work differently. Now you have to understand that a lot of those same tactics that were used or the approaches that you had to get that work done. They have to evolve in, you have to change over the time and you have to be a different leader today than you were six months ago, nine months ago, two years ago to meet the team where the team is at otherwise, if you stagnate your leadership style. And if your approach is just that same approach, you know again or that same approach at a higher level than than you're not bringing anything new and your not showing them the of Aleutian of your leadership to then have them evolve their performance or their developments as one of your employees? I think there's truth to that and I, I love that you're kind of swimming positive intent of the of those people, but I truly think there's a lot of mount there who just don't have the ability to connect what they're asking of their of their people to the larger company mission as a whole. So it becomes a do it for me, not do it for the company do it because this is your job not do it for this mission do it because you don't wanna lose your job, not do it because this is why this company exists on the planet and were excited about making this happen together. And so I, it's, it's I, I know people who don't necessarily evolve their leadership style. They the same leader. They have been for two or three years, but people still follow them because they do an amazing job of connecting what they're asking. Back to what the mission or the vision of the organization is. And so I think you're right that there are people like that out there, but they're also people out there who just don't have the ability to have it be about anything but them and and when you don't have that you, you're, you lose the authority to lead very quickly. Yeah, you know, I completely agree. And as you were saying that it made me reflect for a second and remember a time when I was an assistant manager and I transferred to a different store and the kind of team was established. Leaders were there. And as I got into that team, what I felt was that it was about me that I was there to bring in this element of culture and business accurate in these types of things. And I kind of walked into that team with that. It's about me type of attitude and what ended up happening over time was I was not able to connect with, nor was I able to influence the team to come. To go and do the work that I was wanting them to go do because I didn't take the time to respect the current environment and culture to get to know them to find ways that I could add value to the work that they were looking to accomplish to really build the foundations of relationships where when I wanted to challenge them, it came across somebody looking to help them get better, not as the new guy trying to tell them what to do that for me when you were just talking about that was just another example of a time where I looking back on it, I feel like I completely failed as a leader because I wasn't there for my peers in a way that was supportive in look into really help push that business forward. Yeah, that reminds me of something to I. I was working for a company where the team I was on was really empowered like there was a, we kind of had a lot of atonomy we're doing things well and I I was recruited away from that team to another one because the. The the goal was to kind of take that level of empowerment and and innovation that was there and kind of spread it around a little bit. And so I went on to this other team to kind of help help drive that process. And I went in with guns blazing as far as that type of process. I was acting the exact same way that I did on the previous team, and it was it was like looking, you know that you know that those videos where people go into the animal shelter and they go to like, pick up the animal and there's like, you go into look, I, I have a steak for you in the animal cowers in the corner. It's like, well, why? Why don't you want the steak? This is what everybody wants is this steak and you're just cowering in the corner and peeing yourself, you know, it's like, that's that's exactly how it was. It was. It was me erroneously thinking that not because now I'm here and because I came from this team, that was so great that all of a sudden it's going to be yesterday. We flip the switch, and now this team's going to be great too, and there was a lot of prep work that had to be done that that that animal that's cow. During the corner has to warm up to you. They have to come out to you on their own time and they have to figure out what their relationships going to be like with you first before you can start dictating things and on. And I have absolutely been guilty of doing that thinking that because what I'm bringing is universally great like no one can say that being able to have more control over over how you contribute to an organization is good. No one can say that's not great. No one can say that it's not great to to have some semblance of of being able to talk to anybody want to an open door policy, great communication with your peers and your leaders. Those are all really great things, but to to a group of people who haven't had it, it's foreign. And even if it's great, it's still something to have to warm up to. And so I've done that before in the past two still something that I, that I have a hard time wrapping my head around the why behind. But at least I know it's true now and if it ever happens again, all know how to approach it differently. Yeah, completely agree with that brings us to the. Episodes. One minute tack. The one minute patch. Okay. For this episode woman hack, I want you to write down three examples of failures in your personal life. One where you feel yourself one. Were you fail your peers and one where you failed. The people who report to you and very specifically go into those three categories right on the specifics of every detail you can think of about what happened, why the failure was there and don't focus on the parts of the failure that you can't own for focus on the parts of the failure that you can own. And then I want you to break down under Neath that what you would have done differently. So if you had a time machine, go back in time, knowing everything you know now, what would you have done differently? And the the, the importance of this is being able to reflect on how failures can can be catalysts to make you a better leader and to not dwell on them to not let them be career enders, but instead take them from what they are is a moment in time that you can learn from. Hopefully those moments in time are set up in such a way where where you are. In your leadership journey, it doesn't end your career, it doesn't. You know you were. You're good person. You have good ethics. So hopefully it's just kind of one of the things you can learn from move on. But it doesn't mean you get to move on and wash your hands of it. If you don't have the ability to look back on it and reflect on it and realize why that failure happened, you are likely to repeat it that have happened again in some way. So this is a large part of leadership is being able to reflect back on these failures that we've had so we can learn from them. Yeah, I think it's a great woman, a hack, and it also is a great practice because what ends up happening as a leader is that other people could have similar situations happen or you could witness it as a leader. Somebody failing, you know, in the job that they're doing and you're now able to share, you know your own personal testimonies and what you learn from them, what you took from them, and just being able to show that type of empathy in relating to somebody can be very powerful to help them move on and continue their career because just like Chris and I just shared like you know, those failures happen. And here we are today, you know, so like those things can happen and you could move on from them. In many times, it takes a little bit of time to look back to understand exactly what happened in what could have been done differently? Yes. Some of the strongest relationships I've had with people reporting up to me started out with a conversation where I, where I shared with them a moment of personal failure in my career and that vulnerability and that openness was the catalyst to starting what led to years. Long relationships. Yup. And with that, it brings us to the end of this episode. This hacking leadership on the Renzo and I'm Chris, we'll talk to you all next time.