1 Episode results for "Zach Satellites"
T+179: Meagan Crawford, SpaceFund
"Low end welcome back to main engine. Cutoff i am anthony colangelo. We've got a special guest with us today. We've got megan crawford who's a managing partner over at space fund also hosts mission eve. Podcast generally an all around great person. So we're going to talk about the finance side of space today. I don't cover it too much on the show. But i probably should more. So we're going to talk about some of the funding rounds you seen recently some of the exits that we've seen by way of acquisition either outright or two holding companies also when i pick her brain about the special purpose acquisition company trend that. We've been seeing that. I find quite shady. So we're going to talk about all of that but before we get there. I wanna say huge. Thank you to everyone who supports main. Engine cut off at main engine. Cutoff dot com slash support. Last show. i mentioned. We're almost at five hundred patrons. We are now at five hundred and two supporters over there. So thank you all so much for your support. That's awesome number two hit and this particular episode was produced by thirty six executive producers. Thanks to brandon matthew simon lauren. Melissa chris pat matt. George ryan donald. Lee chris warren bob russell maurice joel yon grant david eunice rob. Tim dodd. The ever dash not frank. Julian and lars from agile space. Tommy matt and seven anonymous executors. Thank you all so much for making this episode possible. If you wanna help join over there and support the show you also can get meco headlines in your podcast feed every single friday. I run through all the stories of the week. Talk about everything big to small to anything in the middle that have thoughts on that as important to know about so head over to main engine. Cutoff dot com slash support. Join up there three dollars a month level or more and you will get show every single week. It's an whole extra podcast in your feet every week. So anyway Let me talk to meghan. It's going to be great conversation. I'm really excited. And it's long overdue. So you recall well. Megan welcome to manage and cut off. This has been a year overdue at this point. An entire pandemic overdue. Maybe i'm happy that you're here talking to us. I'm really thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me anything so to start. I want everyone to meet you. Because you're awesome So you are a member of space fund. You also have this podcast mission eve. That is fantastic. Can you tell everyone a little bit about you sure. Yeah co founder and managing partner of space fund Where venture capital firm investing exclusively in the new space ecosystem so very kind of targeted fund And then i also have my podcast mission eve which I interview the most amazing women in the space industry. It's just been a thrill and just so much fun to do. And in the hopes of inspiring more women to join us here in the space industry So that's that's a project that's near and dear to my heart I'm also on. The board of several nonprofits needs to do a quick shout out the space frontier foundation. The center for space commerce finance mars initiative and the earth light foundation Spend an inordinate amount of my time helping those at nonprofits. So i think that's probably about it so we're gonna talk about a bunch of different angles on the finance side of stuff which i occasionally touch on but probably not as deeply as i should in many cases there's some fundraising that has happened. In the past year that has been particularly notable for the size specifically spacex relativity. Been getting gargantuan amounts of money there's some acquisitions that have happened recently. And then There's a whole trend of holding companies. That i find quite interesting as well as a trend that i find interesting and more shady. Which is this whole special purpose acquisition friend. Those are the things. I want to pick your brain about. Is there an order. would you like to start with fundraising and then get into what happens after. You've gotten a bunch of funding and actually accomplish things. What's the right order there. Yeah well I think i'd like to start with this kind of startling statistic that that i i like to I like to bring up a lot. Is that One and it's it's one of the reasons that spaceman was founded. Actually is you know. Currently launched comprises less than two percents of the global space economy yet has received seven percent of the venture capital. Today right sounds crazy but it. It makes such intuitive sense to like you know somebody watches the markets but exactly crazy. Yeah that's crazy. Yeah i like it when you hear that you're like oh yeah that seems right but holy crap. That's crazy just hear those numbers right and now the one question i would have is. Does that. include any space x funding as launch. Yes that includes spacex funding and includes the you know that big relativity rounded includes all of that. So i guess that's my that would be. My stipulation is like how. How do you separate out. What of that is going to starlink. zach satellites. Then does that skew it or is it not big enough to actually skew. Anything no matter how you classify either couple billion. Yeah so you know the regardless. It's it's a huge number even if he were to try and take starlink out of the kind of the space x portion of that. They're going to be forty percent of the venture right number exactly exactly and so you know when When my partner. Rick tomlinson and i were contemplating a founding space fund. You know this was one of the things that was really bothering us. We were kind of looking around the industry at all of our our friends and colleagues. Who are these brilliant entrepreneurs going and down sandhill road and couldn't get any funding and meanwhile while all these other. Vc's are just pouring good money. After bad into launch company after launch company because all ilan has launched company and basil's has launched company and jared. Leto is invested in in relativity space so i need a launch company. Right and base fund is currently tracking a hundred and sixty two active launch companies around the world. Now over time. We've talked over two hundred so that means more than forty of them have already failed or bowed out in some way But it's just insane right. There's there's currently Nine launched companies around the world. We expect there to be room in the market for maybe six more. So a total of fifteen launch companies will completely cover all of the demand for launch. So you know what are the other one hundred fifty companies gonna do right so so. The launch market is just absolutely ridiculous extremely oversupplied for the demand that we see coming for launch And again this is one of the reasons. Space fund was founded as. Because you know we see launch as a solved problem right. We now have this. Low cost frequent reliable access to space. That didn't exist five years ago. And so what comes next. What are the things that are being launched right. And that's where space fund you know Really has come into the market to try and finance those other things those other parts of the space ecosystem that are so important and so when you look at things like the you know the recent relativity round To us that's just insane. Won the valuations are way too high. Now we're investors in spacex. Okay so i do need to give that caveat. Although i do think evaluation is way too high but i like to see it. Continue to go up because we're investors but you know we think that the valuations are way too high in the launch industry. We think there's way too many companies. It's gonna be way too competitive and so we know we wanted to come in and look at the rest of the industry and say what are the business models that closed today. That didn't close five years ago When we look at what. I call the constellation craze. These fifty thousand satellites that are gonna launch in the next five seven years. We're not necessarily betting on those constellations. Either it's not about me. It's not about who's gonna who's gonna win the you know broadband internet war. It's not about who's going to be the best. Internet of things constellation. It's not about who's going to be. The best sar constellation. What we're interested in is what are the products and services that every one of those fifty thousand satellites are going to need. And that's where we see the opportunity for huge value creation and where there's so little capital available today to help those companies get stood up and so that's kind of the whole that space fund is hoping to fill is to fund those other companies that are not launch companies. That are really doing amazing things right now. One thing. I'm curious with the launch funding. I try to look at it in a way. We're like okay. Relativity and spacex. Good examples for this idea that i'm trying to get. They are launched companies. That have another thing that i would assume. Investment money is interested in in the case of space x starlink in the case of relativity. They're putting so much effort and emphasis on their printing technology behind the scenes that i could see that attracting a lot of the investments engine and the fact that it's the launch company makes it a shiny object. That's attractive in. Its own right but do you separate at all. When you're watching launch companies get funding the ones that have another aspect to them versus. You know we're gonna make some small launcher that is pretty traditional. And it looks vaguely like falcon nine. But it's you know ten times smaller. Do you separate those at all out at all or is it at this point. You're just kind of looking at launches saying not something we're interested in. Yeah that's that's a really great question. And in fact the only reason we invested in spacex is. Because we believe that. Alan's gonna roll starling out an ipo. It in the near future is. He said publicly multiple times that he's not going to take spacex public until after they land on mars and regardless of what he says his timeline is. We're quite sure that the mars landing is not going to happen. Within the lifetime of our ten year venture capital fund right. And so we've got to have that exit in mind in we're gonna be talking about exit slot today and so The you know. The potential spinout starlink and that separately gives us the potential of an exit within the lifetime of the fund. Which is the only reason we we went ahead and made the space x invesment Because without that we wouldn't have that possibility of exit. Although there is a robust secondary market for spacex dog. You can always you can always get rid of it. That's not a problem but but still Wanting to have that that kind of exit event that that of course has a valuation increases really important. And you're right about relativity I think that they're they're three d. Printing technology is Is really kind of where the value is in that company and not necessarily the value of three d. printing rockets right. There's a lot of parts of rocket engines that are simply like you know twelve sent plastic hoses that you can buy at home depot. It doesn't necessarily make sense to three. D print those things out of metal from from an economics perspective. It doesn't make sense so You know good on them for for trying to trying to figure that out. But but i really think that the value there is is much more in They're really large three d printers than it is in the rocket engines themselves. Yeah that's kind of always my tim. Ellis on a couple of months ago. And i the thing that's always bugged me on that. I finally got a chance to ask him was. Are you a launch services company. That does it by way of three d. printing or are you a three d. printing company who currently does launch services. He was you know. Well no we like launch service. I still think it's a three d. Printing company that just wants to launch vehicle. Because that's an easy target but that that's the way they're thinking about their company one one would hope so before we get into this specific acquisitions and things. We talk about one. Other kind of internationally focused thing that i want to pick your brain on his Two different stories one is one web. They've got you know they recently got bought out by the british government and bharti global. I'm curious if you think that kind of government level involvement and whatever plans that may bring changes the game for constellations generally who currently were you know focused on the private industry. That seems you know. They're still putting a lot of money. And i just saw news this morning. They raise another four hundred million dollars so does that influence Any of the constellation thoughts that you're that you have the that's that's a great question and so you know obviously anytime any government is involved. All that does is slow things down and make it harder. Right the more government involvement. You have in a business the slower things move and harder it is to get things approved in and to innovate So i think that that is going to slow them down. I think probably the british government is is maybe better than than the. us government does because it's a little smaller in a little bit more nimble But you know one. Webb has had problems since since the beginning and the amount of money that has been poured billions of dollars that have been poured into that company for as of yet. No results You know really concerns me that i think one web one web and spacex are the two single largest fundraisers in the space industry But spacex has results one web So so that does really concern me about that company. It you know. Kind of what. I mentioned about the launch industries. Like good money after bad right That i'm concerned about you. Know continuing to pour money into a company that hasn't been able to deliver anything And like i mentioned earlier from the constellation perspective. We're not really interested in investing in in really any of these constellations I think that these are gonna you know it's gonna be kind of a commodities market. There's not gonna be a whole bunch of wiggle room for profit here because it's so competitive because you're not only competing with other broadband. Internet satellite constellations starlink But you're also competing with with your terrestrial internet providers right end so really where we see. The excitement is not delivery of internet from from orbit. it's not connecting smart devices. It's it's not that sort of stuff. It's it's about It's about what comes next. It's about all of these other products and services that can come from space And so we're not making any bets not market We're not interested in investing in really in any constellations with the exception of we have made one constellation estimate and not send s. e. n. doing four k. hd video from space And you know we think that's that's really interesting in very different in kind of a different edge on the earth observation market but again it's You know it's it's about the new possibilities not kind of the same old same old. We're going to do internet from space Idea that everybody's had for thirty years. You know the last thing that i have on the on my funding list here and this might be something that you are not talking about that. There's been this recent And it's kind of murky at that this opening of private capital to the chinese market. And they've been you know there's been privatization push for whatever that term means in over in china We've seen giant amounts of money go towards an imaging consolation the jalen one constellation that is of like a planet competitor. There's one that's sr competitor and then launch companies are now raising you. Hundred seventy eight hundred eighty million dollars. None of those specifically. I'm just of curious if you've thought about that. At all in terms of how that entrance of or the opening of a market affects the market. That we know today is there. Is it going to be a pretty insular thing over there for the first little while is it going to be something that pulls investors away from some of the companies that that you and i are talking about here or you know. How's that how's that play out in your mind. The way i contextualize the chinese market is There is no commercial market in china. Everything is government owned no matter what they tell you all right so So as far as investing in the chinese market It's not something we would ever do. because of kind of government control aspect. They are But i you know from. And i think that most american investors of the same way. They're just very wary of the chinese market And i'm sure you're aware keenly aware of it restrictions stiffest restrictions in all of those things that make it very difficult for american companies to work with chinese companies And so you know. We have to look at china as a competitor in general You know china as an entity is a competitor to everything. America is doing space or in the rest of the world in general But i don't see them being super competitive in the commercial market because so many the hot spots where space is is really taking off united states europe australia israel Those countries also have similar restrictions on working with china and so the china the chinese launched companies for example they might be able to serve markets. There might be you know. There's some countries that will do business with china but it's not the majority of the world and it's certainly not the big space Commercial activity centers of the world are not able to do business with china not able to launch on a chinese rocket Not able to buy you know. Earth imaging data from a chinese company. So so i don't see them as being super competitive in the market My biggest concern. Is you know from a defense perspective. you know in the new can of race to the moon and all of that stuff You know. I think they'll be very competitive there but i don't see them being super competitive in in the commercial markets. Let's get context All right so let's get into the good stuff some of the acquisitions you've seen recently the exits which ones are top of mind for you So really what's the one that's most top of mind for me would be our portfolio company maiden space. That was a that was acquired by red wire. was a first exit from our fund. You know Most venture capital funds several years end before they start to see exits. We got our first exit Just a couple months into fund one With the acquisition of maine space. That was that was really fantastic And so you know that one is is really great example and i know we wanna talk about red wire and voyager a little bit as we get into this but You know that one was the most top of mind and the most the most relevant to me because we were investors space and they. That's an interesting case where So recently red wire also purchased. I don't know how to pronounce visit rocker. Rock roker pronounce that one. That's an rotc. Oh yeah yeah and focused on deployable spacecraft structures so. It's something that could connect to a lot of the projects that we've heard of maiden space recently and Red wire purchased load path as well i to put this down my list here. I had a list off top of my head and that was not on there. But you know all that to say is that it's interesting in the case of red wire that you see this. These companies go well together. Getting you know purchased up by the same holding company and Is that something that makes everyone. Happy is something you expected to see is. What is that trend like in of somebody who's investing these companies and then you're finding a home for them in this holding company. It's exactly what we want to see in the market right in any see this in a lot of other markets as well we have these private equity firms that are that are rolling up different companies to create a conglomerate that that's more efficient and effective this is exactly what voyager space holdings was was founded to do And that's perfect for venture capitalists to have these players in the market. I would love to see five six ten of these of these private equity or conglomerates formed Kind of buying up all of these different Startups and putting them together into these kind of bigger packages right And so it's it's really a positive thing for the industry overall And i think it's going to make a lot of these companies more efficient more effective and more profitable. Voyager for instance. Our good friends. Over there. You know dylan taylor and matt kuda are focusing a lot on backoffice right and so taking the accounting and the marketing and all of that stuff out of the hands of your technical founders and entrepreneurs and allowing them to really focus on what it is that they do best and not have to worry about you know putting together financial statements and w. twos because it's january and the rest of us are doing that folks yes right. The the folks that have been purchased by voyager. Aren't worrying about that stuff right because voyagers taking care of that for them and so So again i think it brings a lot of efficiency to to these companies and allows them to really focus on what it is that they do best in and hopefully The the interaction as mentioned with the companies that red wires buying maiden space and roku unload path putting those all together into a single entity Know allows for operations to scale much more effectively and all the rest so So yeah. I think it's a wonderful trend and something that we're of course watching very carefully and are are very excited to see happening So so far Red wire Or a industrial partners. However you know however you want to when it classify them They made five acquisitions last year. Right out coal. Space deep space systems load path maiden space in core voyager Three launched company pioneer astronautics in naynack's An ac clyde space did to acquisitions right And you're also saying Rocket lab Bautzen clear interplanetary. I think that that's just the beginning for rocket lab. I i really think that they're gonna be growing through acquisition and that you're going to see them can start eating up The most important parts of the satellite supply chain so they become a fully integrated company. Where you just come to rocket lab not can they launched you. They can build your satellite fort right And with their with their new kick stage and all the rest it could be a complete solution. You just come to rocket and say. I have an idea for thing that i need to go to space. Space rocket lab says perfect will build it will launch. It will get it exactly where you need to go dot I think you're gonna see something similar with spaceflight with the recent mitsui Acquisition of the majority of spaceflight They're sitting on a whole bunch of capital right now. What are they going to do with Likely you're gonna start seeing some some. emanate activity from them as well and so Yeah so so. I think that that's really good. Signal shows that the market is is maturing shows that were you know for a long time. The space industry has been. You know the red headed stepchild right. It's something that everybody was interested in watching. But it didn't really of seem like a real market yet And this is exactly the type of activity that signaling to the rest of the world that no spaces real market a real investment opportunity You have real exits That are that are quickening in pace. Year-over-year twenty. Twenty was was a really hard year for the entire world But the space industry continued to grow in two thousand and nineteen we had twenty one exits and then twenty twenty. We had eighteen exits and so even in the worst year for economics in recent history that anybody can remember we still had eighteen exits in the space industry. I mean that's phenomenal. And so. I'm just really excited about all of that stuff. Where it's all going one that i wanna zoom in on there that you mentioned was now no wrecks. They were looking for. I think it was a twenty million dollar. Round of funding was rumored or reported. I don't remember how confirmed that was. But they were looking to raise money. And then they eventually went the way of getting acquired or a majority stake taken by space holdings and i did see a note. Cnbc said that voyagers planning to put more than fifty million dollars or something over the coming year into nana rex for somebody who has been on. You know not invest the invented side but also you know having a stake in a company that went to holding company is that a thing that nanno wrecks and others have to get their mind around that that was a possibility because they were just looking for funding and they ended up getting acquired. Is that a different mental model that you have to get into. did it. Take them convincing or or like you were saying before it does. This just makes so much sense that we'll see more of this than just pure fundraising in the future. So i think that it's really one of the things that's missing from. The market right now is growth capital. So there's venture capital funds like like space fund. Our good friends mike. Mailing and steve jurgensen over at star bridge got lisa and jeff rich over at hemisphere. And so you've got kind of a good market developing for the early stage. Capital of seed series. But what's really missing from. The market is the growth capital right. Where is the money for that. One hundred million dollars Series see that a lot of these companies are going to need. that doesn't exist right now. Right another thing. That i that i often like to quote. Is that right now in the us if you take all of the space focused venture capital firms so we would kick hemisphere out of this. Space is only one of their sectors of interest. But if you look at espace fund star bridge space angels fund There's there's only tens of millions of dollars under management in that world. There's not enough capital for the growth stage that these space companies need because those growth gross stage rounds are are pretty large and so voyager is really helping. Fill a gap there So that they can come in and provide that that capital for that growth stage That doesn't otherwise exist in the market and voyagers unique in that. It's not really a private equity company although it kind of behaves like one And they don't necessarily by the entire company they'll buy a majority stake Which means that the entrepreneurs and the employees get to get to maintain their ownership company which is really valuable And really really good for motivation. He know keeping everybody aligned and so So i think that that. That's that's really. The value of a company like voyager is being able to provide that growth capital to take these companies who who have some revenue who have had some success technology has been proven But need those larger dollar value rounds in order to go to that next level And so think that you will see some later stage v starting to pop up certainly. It's something that space fund is looking at and thinking about but until that happens companies like boy are are really really valuable to the market. This might be a little outside your general focus and something that you pay little mine too. But recently we heard the news that aerojet rocketdyne. There's going to be getting acquired by lockheed martin. This is kind of the old school model. Where big aerospace prime acquires. another big aerospace contractor. Do you keep your eyes on any of that stuff. Does the price tag. There was right around five billion dollars or something like that does that you know her Evaluations are crazy comment earlier. Does the price tag interest you at all. Is there anything that you can draw from there. In terms of wisdom those sorts of transactions are a again valuable to the marketplace. Any sort of activity like that is is a good signal to investors from outside the space industry. There's good activity going on. But i'd much rather see lockheed out in the in the startup ecosystem innovating through acquisition. Right so we all know that the big primes are not set up to innovate And i mentioned earlier. The new The new moon race with china And it's a space race with china right now and if if the us and its partners are going to win that race We we need to do what. America does best an innovate. And that's not gonna happen inside. A lockheed martin or a boeing or you la and so so yeah it's it's great that they're kind of rolling up Aerojet what they're doing. But but really what. I'd like to see them. Do is is be out in the In the stock market acquiring Some of these new and exciting companies. That are that are really have innovations that that can help you know lucky primary customers the government right and so you know what are the things that the us government needs to be competitive in in the space arena And why is lockheed not out buying up those companies So you know. I'm hoping that as kind of the aviation market comes back. That boeing will start doing this. In fact had some conversations with the folks at at horizon ex boeing's venture capital arm and. I know that they're starting to think that way. And and starting to kind of transition their their their strategy to be more focused on that. But of course you know. It's it's difficult to to turn that boat right right right exactly so so. I think that the acquisitions are good. You know from the big from the big big guys are important. But i'd rather them be acquiring the startups than than the other. Yes yes certainly. We've seen lockheed martin their venture capital arm invested pretty early on in rocket lab that was like twenty seventeen or something like that so they clearly is in the market. I the aerojet thing kind of destroyed my working theory that they seem to be getting pretty cozy the firefly and airasia in the past had tried to buy united launch alliance. I was like oh. Maybe they'll like you know. Try to get firefly in and get a new young company. That's doing something interesting but there goes that right out the window. I guess i don't think firefly's interested in being acquired Although there have been whispers in the market that Firefly may be actually doing an external funding round. Which they haven't done you know they've they've been Internally funded through their entire development and so so yeah it'll be very interesting to watch firefly as hopefully have this successful launch in key thing happening. There i yeah. I don't know. I forget. I think talked about on the podcast. That like Max polyakov have been removed from the website that they had scrubbed any references to him and There was another partner. Mark watt or something. Like that. So i was like okay. They haven't announced anything yet. But there's changes on their infrastructure side of their site and all that something's happening over there. Yeah something's definitely happening as they're preparing for this launch and And i think that they they likely will go out for funding round but they have any interest in being acquired. just yet Now once you have outside investors that changes the conversation right because those investors are looking for an acquisition in looking for an exit so they may change their tune once they get some outside investment in and certainly once they're flying that helps everything as he earlier that are doing things are generally looked at more fondly. Okay the last bone to pick. I have is the special purpose acquisition situation. We've seen virgin galactic. Go public this way. We've seen Momentous either has or is going to. I forget where they're out in their in their process. There what is this guy shady as it feels. What do you make of that. Yeah so Are are all the rage right now. Not just in the space industry but in general and there's there's a couple of points here one is that going public is really difficult to expensive. It's really time consuming. So many regulatory hurdles and the great thing about spock's is that you get to kind of skip all the b. s. right And so that's why stocks have become so popular that you know these special purpose. Acquisition companies are put. Together they go through all the trouble of of going public and doing all the paperwork and getting all the regulatory approvals And so and then they can just come in and an outright by company take public with with very little Very little of the process right. So that's why specs in general have become so popular as because ip our heart We've seen a general decline in the ipo market over the last few years Specifically for this reason because it's just too hard to go public in too much expense and crap to deal at and so in general the spac Idea i think is valuable to the ipo. Market all But in the case of the to space That that you mention burgeon and an momentous I really do have some concerns there. Because both of those companies are pre revenue. And it's not unheard of for a company to go public when it's pre revenue but it's a little shady as you mentioned right and so it just doesn't it doesn't make sense to me for a company to go public when it's pre revenue now burgeon. I can see that because virgin is such a well known popular company because there's so much Excitement about what. They're doing that one kind of makes sense to me The momentous back though. And i gotta be careful here because i do have some friends who work at momentous whom i love dearly but they are very much a pre revenue company. Their technology has not yet been to space. And so i'll let you and the listeners determine why a company would want to go public prior to their technology being tested and being shown to work in space. Why would you want to go public before that. The you know in my world. I as an investor. I would wanna see you get to that. Trl nine i would wanna see you know. Happy customers with missions that have gone perfectly because that would greatly increase the valuation of the company. Right so why. Are you going public before you get to space pregnant pause there is also this other storyline. Where is it the ceo that has saw something in the news recently. I'm going to get the story wrong. I should look it up before anything. Mikhail coca-rich who know has been ceo. Chairman i'm not sure exactly what his title is over there but mikhail's the one who founded momentous founded astra digital but You know there's there's been continuous problems with with mikhail and his his ability to even work on the technology as as a foreign national Syfy est issues there's This there were serious problems with with astra digital when he was there The russian money is is not really looked upon very well by the by the us government when you're when you're working on space projects So so there's a lot of issues there with mikhail with with the money with the investors There's this issue with the technology not being tested. there's just there's a lot of issues there with that company that make one's eyebrows raise if you will And and make the spac seem seem very The timing of it is very interesting. Reassess my vibe. Because i'm not a big fan of virgin galactic for a variety of reasons of which i have talked for too much on this podcast to go into again This whole momentous situation is interesting so am i. Unfairly looking at s- packs. When i should just be making an assessment of these particular companies and it's the actual mechanism is not shady. You and it could be applied properly. Or yes i. that's i think. That's exactly right. So the mechanism itself is something that could be very valuable to the space industry to to the ipo market. In general you know well. Outside of the space industry Specs themselves are are are fine. It's these particular companies that are that makes back seems shady to space industry and from our perspective You know as a venture capital fund. That very much wants to see as many exits as possible especially unicorn. Ipo's right. That's exactly what the bbc wants to see in the market But our concern. Is that these particular. Companies are not representing the industry. Well and that The the wider public investment market If this is what they're getting from the from the new space space startup ecosystem It's not representing the rest of the industry while and could potentially sour The possibility of of ipo in the future for from companies that that are really good companies. That really do deserve to go. Public have good valuations If investors get burned on on virgin galactic momentous. They're they're going to have less interest in in the good companies when they do come along concern there. Yeah all right. Well that makes me feel better over. I feel like you've talked me into a better head space about this stuff. So i appreciate that Are there any other stories. We should've talked about. I've i've made it through my list. And i'm like feeling great about things at this moment but did i miss anything that we should have covered from from an exit perspective. I think that was I think that's pretty good. You know what What i think is really interesting too is that we are seeing. It seems like like once a week at this point. we're seeing new a venture capital firms. Pop up that either have space as one of their sectors or space as their focus all over the world. There's a new one in italy. Just a couple of weeks ago that popped up And so. I think that that's a really important signal to the market as well as that you know i mentioned earlier. This kind of missing growth stage capital But the gross stage capital can't really develop until we've got a really robust early stage funding environment and so that's developing really really well and so i think that that's a great signal you've got and then on the other end you've got the exits Increasing in pace and value year over year And so overall. I think that's really great. News for the space market in general the over two thousand space startups. That's based on his currently tracking. The good news to you guys is that there is going to be capital available for you to grow your business. And so overall. I think that the space investment market is rapidly improving rapidly increasing in scale and And you're gonna see a lot more exit activity in twenty twenty one You know my prediction is that You know and. I don't wanna i don't wanna put to to sharp numbers on it here but You know i mentioned. We had twenty one exits in two thousand and nineteen eighteen. Twenty twenty I fully expect to get to twenty five or thirty exits in twenty twenty one and so So that's good news. All around meghan coffer. Thank you so much for coming on is there anything else. You wanna plug for people to go. Check out our. You mentioned something when we were email about this that you had some work happening. That might be coming out like this week or next. Is that something that people should look out for. Yes we're we're putting together a report right now on the twenty twenty exit environment. Which is why. I had all these numbers and names right at my fingertips. Today's for today's podcast. So yeah definitely be looking for that and generally on the space fund website We have all of our databases are reality rating databases through sector-by-sector cataloging every company rating them. On how real they are. Are they just a powerpoint company or they fully operational and lots of other research available on our market intelligence side of our website. And so do check that out if you're interested in In kind of where the the startup environment is going when it like There's a lot of data available there that that can be really useful and and to the entrepreneurs out there i would say go. Check the space on database before you start a company and make sure that. Make sure that there's not too many competitors. Make sure that you can that. You can do something new and unique in different than than what's being done before. Don't start launch company. There's one hundred sixty two them goes. Start something else But do take a look at on dot com in all the really fun and exciting data there. Thank you so much megan. It's a pleasure talking with you. I hope. I can see you in person again sometime soon. But we'll get there when we get there. I guess absolutely thanks again to meghan for coming on the show. It was a fantastic conversation and we should definitely check in more on that topic than than we do. Typically here on the show but anyway now that is all. I've got this week. Thank you all so much for listening for your support as always managing dot com slash support. If you have questions thoughts email me. Anthony at managing cutoff dot com for. Hit me up on twitter at. We have meco and until next time. Hope you have a good week takasu.