21 Burst results for "Yehuda"
"yehuda" Discussed on Lex Fridman Podcast
"Were not aware of that would be not so much this Like ego dissolution or emotional what. Md may does is Reduces activity in the middle the fear processing part of the brain so it's not just chemistry but it routes energy throughout the brain in a different way increases activity in the prefrontal cortex. So you think more logically. The that i think has an enormous impact on the effect of md may The other thing it does is it increases connectivity between the middle and the hippocampus so it helps facilitate processing of things into long term memory and with ptsd traumas like never in the past. It's always about to happen and so will we. One time develop drugs that would even be specific to certain kind of memories. We're working with a woman. Rachel yehuda who is at the bronx. Va and she's done some studies that are with the epa genetics of trauma. So she's worked with holocaust survivors and their children and she has identified epa genetic mechanisms by which traumas passed from generation to the generations. Sort of like set points for anxiety fear. Certain things like that. But the question is. Can you actually transmit memories from one generation to the next now. This is not dna Changes which happen over a very long period of time and evolutionary scale but within one lifetime within some experiences your epigenetics what turns on genes are turned off certain genes that can be impacted. And that's what we know now can be transmitted from generation to generation either by the father or the mother through the sperm or the egg. So it's it's pretty Remarkable so what what. Rachel is going to try to do as empty may research. Ptsd and look at these epa genetic markers before and after and see if they change as a consequence of therapy so will we develop one day certain kinds of chemicals that will be able to bring certain kind of memories to the surface that's not inconceivable. The epa genetic angles fascinating that there will be these genetic probations that lead to memories living from one generation to.
"yehuda" Discussed on Family Secrets
"People and and then we chased the hormonal findings. And by then you know we were just we just got lucky. Because by then molecular neuroscience had given us all kinds of tools to be able to look inside the cell and look on the dna. So we couldn't do this work even though in the early nineties when i first encountered this. I knew that it wasn't exactly genetic that was explaining this. But i thought it was more than just being raised in environments that offspring raced in because there was so much diversity in the homes. You know some parents talked all about the holocaust all the time and some didn't say word and so there was. I felt there had to be more and indeed there seems to be more..
"yehuda" Discussed on Family Secrets
"Ptsd compared to combat veterans with ptsd. And what did you make of that. I mean what what and over time. What have you made of that. It must be you know. I'm not a scientist. It must be so sort of provocative way as a scientist when you know the results are are there and they're irrefutable and yet they're not. They're strating because they're complicated or confusing or not. Not what was expected or create create new challenges. So irrefutable is a big word. Because i know studies refutable. What people like me do when when we do a study is we try very hard to minimize the kind of confounds that might contribute to having false results and so you always wonder when you do study. Is this really right. Did i minimize all the things that could contribute to something that might give me a distorted read out and so what most people do is think. I better routine the study. And since the results really were so counterintuitive but by this time it was the second finding. Because i was replicating a finding already but still. The results are so counterintuitive. That i thought i had a replicate them and then i wondered if there had been something special about the at phnom veterans for at the. Va that might not be prototypical. Other kinds of trauma survivors and for my replication. I chose to study holocaust survivors. Because i thought well you know. Holocaust survivors have also suffered extreme trauma. I grew up in a jewish community where there were a lot of holocaust survivors and to me. They seemed initially like they might be different from vietnam veterans who were at the But that was a false first impression but in any event i thought look. I'm going to go and find out if the levels are lower in holocaust survivors and adrenaline levels are higher. Also know survivors within without ptsd and in kind of putting that study together a learned that first of all yes. We were able to replicate the finding of lower cortisol levels and increased levels of adrenaline in holocaust survivors with ptsd. But the thing that gave me the the biggest jolt was how many holocaust survivors had. Ptsd even fifty years after the holocaust and how infrequently this have been talked about how they didn't have a name for it how they had sought treatment for it and have so many of whom were people that i had grown up with and never suspected were suffering will be right back. Family secrets is sponsored by audible as you might suspect. I have a small mighty library of audiobooks on the subject of trauma. Listening can be a great way of taking in some of the best most valuable information about trauma. Ptsd and healing among my favorites all available on audible are dr vessel vander cokes. The body keeps the score. Gabor mateos when the body says no and my grandmother's hand racialized trauma and the pathway to mending our hearts and bodies by rasma menachem. That's just a few. I'd also like to recommend an audio book. That is my go-to for morning meditation. Mark nipples the book of awakening. Start your thirty day. Trial and get one audiobook plus access to the all new plus catalogue for free by visiting audible dot com slash danny or by texting danny to five hundred five hundred. There is nothing quite as healing as quietly listening to the wisdom and experience of great thinkers. I think it would be so helpful. toll listeners. Even though it's really so basic for you to actually define ptsd in to its symptoms. Because i know it can take on many different shapes and forms but it is. It is diagnosed in terms of symptoms as well as in terms of the science of the cortisol levels. It's a it's a good point a ptsd. As as it was defined then was a condition that occurs following exposure to extremely traumatic event. Generally a life threatening event at that time. There were three symptom clusters associated with. Ptsd there are now four but they are having intrusive distressing recollections of the trauma either because You get reminded of what happened or just out of the blue. You know you're just minding your own business than you haven't intrusive recollection of something horrible or the memory comes to you in the form of a nightmare and one of the things that happens when you do get triggered or you do have a memory. Is you become very very distressed. So it's easy enough to ask people about whether they have Distressing recollections of trauma that they've been exposed to in the second category of symptoms have to do with avoidance that is that trauma survivors with. Ptsd tried desperately to do whatever they can do to not think about the trauma or not get triggered by the trauma and this involves not dealing with people that might remind them of what happened or going to places where the trauma occurred and it could be a real barrier in therapy because if you have an illness or condition where you wanted to symptoms is that you want to avoid thinking about what happened. You're reluctant to talk about what happened. And hearing from trauma often involves that up bit you can ask people about their voids behavior. And the third Symptom cluster was hyper arousal. These are the real physiological symptoms. That are probably a function of the higher adrenaline levels. But there's the difficulty sleeping and difficulty concentrating. There's something mccall. Call shaper vigilance. Which is scanning the environment. Just sort of sort of being in a new place and feeling like it might be unsafe looking for the exits making sure that You know where the doors are and having startled response to loud noises what the the hyperarousal symptoms are also being very irritable and angry and this is something that many trauma survivors just cannot understand why they're so irritable. Why little things make them so angry. But it's part of physiological complex and now in the dsm there's a new symptom cluster. That is really reflecting changes in mood and changes in cognition which simply means that you think about the world differently. You just don't see the world the same way as a result of trauma as used to see it and for people have been exposed to trauma early on says really confusing because they don't remember there before they just know that they don't feel safe and that the world is a dangerous place and that you can't trust strangers or they may feel that they are competent to deal with what life has to offer them and the mood. Disturbances are such that. You feel pretty sad. Most of the time sometimes anxious and hopeless nap sense. Ptsd can often be confused with depression..
"yehuda" Discussed on Family Secrets
"It is my honor and pleasure to present special bonus. Episodes family secrets. The first in a two part conversation with dr rachel yehuda professor of psychiatry and neuroscience and director of the traumatic stress studies division at the mount sinai school of medicine in new york. City dr yehuda is one of our nation's foremost experts on the intergenerational effects of trauma this is one of my favorite conversations ever. Could you begin by telling me how you ended up studying trauma and its effects. At the beginning. It was a little bit of an accident. i was a graduate student in the late nineteen eighties and i was studying the effects of stress and brain development. I was doing so in laboratory. Rats i was a student of neuroscience and i found the idea that stress can affect brain development. Really very fascinating. Do not find it very fascinating. And i really time i was in graduate. School wondered if there would be any way that i could possibly have towards working with people and i ended up meeting somebody in my graduate school. Who was very interested in studying psychosis progress Which is really the idea of being able to look to see if college students are at risk for the later development of mental illness and he had developed a screening tool but this was the emerging era of biological psychiatry and so we met casually one time i was a student of neuroscience he said. I wonder if there's a test that could be used to biologically validate my Questionnaire and i looked in the literature. And i found that indeed people were starting to talk about risk for developing psychosis in terms of biologic alteration in In an enzyme called manual remain oxidise. And so i thought to myself. I wonder if this could be measured and learned that it can be measured in platelets so it was so organic said to him. You know what. I bet i could figure out how to measure this enzyme in clay and my adviser wasn't that happy about this whole new development but i promised him i would finish my dissertation in the rats and this is such a challenge for me to figure this out but i did figure it out and we did find that. The levels were associated with his test. And after that i just really wanted to do clinical work and it wasn't necessarily important for me to do it in trauma but what happened was this professor's name was dr william. The dell moved to yale and asked me to come within and i ended up doing a postdoctoral fellowship at yale medical school Starting looking for people that knew about this enzyme men will mean accidents and ending up at the va at the westhaven. Va where Somebody had actually done work with the sense. I'm but had now moved towards studying post traumatic stress disorder. And i thought that was magnificent. I hadn't heard of it before. I've been studying the effects of stress in rats for so long that i thought. Oh this is perfect. So how long had post medic stress disorder had a name and been been something that was in maybe not the popular lexicon but the medical lexicon question. It had only been a diagnosis for seven years by the time that i began my post. Doc nineteen eighty-seven and he was first described in the dsm three in nineteen eighty so there was very little known about the disorder that disorder itself was kind of controversial When it first came out and in fact my mentors at yale that i ended up working with doctors. Earl giller dr john mason had just published. What was the first biologic. Study in p. Tst and they showed very counterintuitive findings. One paper they published showed that adrenaline levels for higher in vietnam veterans compared to other veterans with other psychiatric conditions but another paper that they published showed that levels of the stress hormone cortisol or lower in vietnam veterans with post traumatic stress disorder compared patients with depression and ask. It's a free and other conditions and this lower court is a level of a stress disorder. Head everybody really baffled. And when i heard about it had just been published. It had me baffled because everybody knew that stress related conditions were associated with elevated stress hormone levels and against the backdrop of the fact that people were having a hard time field of psychiatry wrapping their heads around post traumatic stress disorder. You know this was sort of an inconvenient truth in a way because would have been better had the initial study found high stress former. Marvel's we could say see. I told you they still are under stress but this seemed to be a very challenging initial observation. So the study that i ever did in the field of ptsd was to try to replicate this observation. And i was astonished when i actually found the same things. Low cortisol levels in combat vietnam veterans with.
Unpacking Israeli History
"Back in twenty seventeen, the New York Times published an article about Amadeo Garcia Garcia. The. Last Living Speaker of the top story. Once, spoken for centuries by thousands of members of an Amazon tribe Madeo, the sole survivor, and the last person on earth to know the language his tried which had lived uncontactable for centuries along Amazon River in Peru slowly died out due to the weapons diseases brought to them from intruders when Avodados brother passed away his last remaining relative the missionary asked Amodio how he felt. Adele responded in the broken Spanish that he had. The only way he had to communicate with outside world he said. It's now over for us. Why? Dale no longer has some to speak to and when you have no one else to speak to, you will lose your language. That's why was over for Amodio. Losing a language is like losing an identity, a culture history. I don't mean to sound over dramatic here but losing a language is really losing oneself. Looking back at the history of the Jewish people that Jews faced a very similar problem. And the reality today is that over the last one, hundred, fifty years, a modern miracle took place for almost two thousand years Hebrew the language of the Torah the Bible and so much Jewish literature you know the prayers was mostly reserved for the ritual. And now. Jews. Over the world's beekeeper, a language that was essentially dead as a spoken language. Something like this has never happened in history of language. The. Fact that the majority of Jews around the world speak Hebrew today is not something to take for granted. There are approximately fourteen point, seven, million Jews in the world and six point seven, million of them live in Israel where Hebrew is the national language. And many hundreds of thousands outside of Israel, speak language as well learning it in. Jewish. Day schools and summer camps or at home. Short. The Bible prayers and religious texts were written and read in Hebrew. Literally nobody spoke in daily life for like almost two thousand years. So How'd an almost extinct biblical language reemerge as spoken language in the span of only a few decades? Was Zionism that deserves the credit Certain. Figure named Elliot's Ben Yehuda. And what is it always obvious that Hebrew would be the national language of the Jewish state. Let's jump back in time to learn about the history of the Hebrew language details about the spoken language of Hebrew in ancient times are not perfect. Here's what we know. In the Bible the Jews otherwise as Hebrews spoken ancient Biblical version of. Biblical Hebrew was the spoken language of the Jews for over a thousand years. But one of the Romans destroyed the second Jewish Temple in seventy CE HEBREW AGAIN. To die. Out.
Breakthrough Solutions for Anxiety, Depression and PTSD With Apollo Founder Dr. David Rabin
"This particular juncture in human history. We're in a very strange time because the most powerful evolutionary way that we express safety to one another is touching it hugs and now we're self isolate and so. How do we reconcile that? It comes out as your ability to what you were mentioning earlier. So I think I'll a big part of this is I think as you said four Sabbath. It's forcing us into a day of self reflection or three months of self reflection where this is an opportunity to be grateful for what we have and to figure out how to make. Sure this never happens again talk talk more about your research with psychedelics. And where you think this is all going so my research is ongoing presently I think going back to what we're talking about earlier with Eric handles emotional learning. I think Dr Rachel Yehuda who is an incredible researcher at Mount Sinai in the Bronx. Va took things a another step further from understanding just how Neuron Neuron structures and synapses change as we grow and learn and she actually started looking at markers on the DNA That are called epigenetics. So genetics. Dna means tends to mean in DNA when we talk about it means in the act's and Jeez that are literally the same in every single cell in our entire body except in our sperm cells for the most part however if all the DNA and all the genetic code in all of ourselves the same pretty much. How does a skin cell different for brain cell and the way the skins almost different from a brain cell is there little markings on the DNA that tell the skin? Hey Skin your skin don't make rain proteins and it tells the brain that hate your brain and your the specific part of the brain. Don't make skin proteins or any other proteins. Don't make sense for where you're located in your in the in the by albeit regulation right through epigenetics on the markers on the DNA. The answer was really passing. Rachel found that others have fat had echoed in the in the scientific sphere since then is that she found that a lot of hints that Trauma Causes Changes to stress in reward response genes a pass on overtime not only pass on overtime over the course of our lives but pass on over time generations in that ancestors of people or sorry ancestors of people who were in the Holocaust their children and great grand children and Grandchildren. As far as they went in the study they expressed similar the same. Epa genetic markings at correlated with. Ptsd as their parents who were traumatized and so then the next step was hey. Let's try this. Let's explore this a causal model in mice and they traumatize mice at very young age in a red those nights and they watch the genetic The expression marking patterns and they found that without a doubt there were significant changes to stress in reward response gene expression that occurred with that first trauma at a young age that were passed on for up to four generations a safe living before they were eventually or sorry at least four generations of safe living before they were eventually eliminated from the DNA so day ever raised these the the subsequent generations with the EPA genetic markers outside of their Genetic Pool in other words because you know we we always thought about g the one of the things about intergenerational transmission of trauma. It's something about the parent is emotionally transmitted somehow transmitted through the caretaking. They do any control like that. That's a great question I have to go back and look But I but but regardless. I think it is more realistic to not do that. Because that is not representative of what we experience in our lives. Typically in our in our lives when we're traumatized and we resolved their trauma. We do traumatize our children and so I think what's interesting in mice in mice you can. Actually you can look at all these different time points because mice don't have the same rights in our society that human humans do and you can section their brains and take samples. Dna over the course of you know all these different time points in their lives and see that you know when a mouse is born a young mouse born from traumatized parent That baby mouse before has been exposed to negative behavior from the parents still has the same or similar changes and so. I think what's most important about all? This is that trauma and a lot of the symptoms that we're experiencing as a result. Louis experiences result of trauma are not permanent. What this is showing us? Is that epigenetics. If these changes are in the EPA Genetic Code. That's a really good sign because epigenetics are modifiable by things that happen in our lives if trauma which can be defined in reductionist way as you know powerful negative intense meaningful experiences one or many and that EPA genetic changes that result in clinical expression of PTSD depression anxiety. And then we see people going through one. Two three extremely intense meaningful positive experiences with psychedelics or with amazing therapists and their symptoms are within with just three doses of medicine and a bunch of psychotherapy basically gone for years afterwards. That could only be the case if it was acting on the same part of the of the genome. And so because that's the only thing that lasts in our bodies for years and years and years passed onto roster so I think it works long right now. It's very exciting with maps and folks at Yale and in USC. And Dr Huda is. We're looking we're looking at is can psychedelic medicine. Using the proper way actually reverse the EPA genetic changes that result from trauma. And can we then use that? Study to explain how the sort of the interface between science and spirituality where where is where does healing her healing occurs by allowing ourselves to feel safe enough to heal and when we feel safe enough to heal. That's when the recovery nervous is on that's where the para sympathetic system gets resources diverted to ward it to facilitate. Hopefully what we will see as EPA genetic remodeling that restores recovery.
"yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"<Music> Thank <SpeakerChange> you. <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> Oh <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> ask <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Speech_Music_Female> <Advertisement> <Music> <Advertisement> <Speech_Music_Female> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Advertisement> <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Music> <Speech_Music_Female> stem mm-hmm <Speech_Male> stem. Talk <Speech_Male> the Research <Speech_Female> Rachel's done over <Speech_Male> the past. Three decades <Speech_Male> has absolutely <Speech_Male> truly pioneered <Speech_Female> new ways for us to <Speech_Male> treat stress <Speech_Female> and she has done <Speech_Female> as much as anyone. He <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> went out there to help us understand <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> what's happening <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> to people who suffer <Speech_Male> <Advertisement> such debilitating <Speech_Male> <Advertisement> disorders like P tst. <Speech_Male> This is such <Speech_Male> a great interview <SpeakerChange> and her <Speech_Music_Male> work is so incredibly <Speech_Male> important. It <Speech_Male> absolutely is important. Important <Speech_Music_Male> work very <Speech_Music_Male> very interesting <Speech_Male> as well. Although <Speech_Male> research on intergenerational <Speech_Male> transmission <Speech_Male> of TRAUMA <Speech_Male> EFFECTS VIA EPA <Speech_Music_Male> genetic mechanisms <Speech_Male> in people <Speech_Male> has really only only <Speech_Music_Male> just begun. <Speech_Music_Male> The potential <Speech_Music_Male> applications <Speech_Male> of this research <Speech_Music_Male> are quite exciting. <Speech_Male> The term <Speech_Male> groundbreaking gets <Speech_Male> tossed around so <Speech_Music_Male> much. These days <Speech_Music_Male> that it's become comma <Speech_Music_Male> kind of a cliche <Speech_Music_Male> unfortunately <Speech_Music_Male> but when it comes <Speech_Music_Male> to the Research <Speech_Music_Male> Rachel has done. <Speech_Music_Male> This term groundbreaking <Speech_Male> is <Speech_Male> genuinely <SpeakerChange> <Speech_Music_Male> justified. I <Speech_Female> <Advertisement> agree and if V <Speech_Female> enjoyed this interview as <Speech_Music_Female> much as cannon I did <Speech_Music_Female> we invite you to visit <Speech_Music_Female> the stem talk web page <Speech_Music_Female> where you can find the show notes <Speech_Music_Female> for this and other <Speech_Music_Female> episodes stem <Speech_Female> talk that. US <Speech_Male> This is Don <SpeakerChange> Cornelius signing <Speech_Male> <Advertisement> offer. Now Mrs this <Speech_Male> is Ken Ford <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> saying goodbye <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> until we meet <Speech_Music_Male> again <SpeakerChange> on <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> stem talk. <Music> <Advertisement> <Music> <Music> <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> Thank you. You're <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> listening to stem talk. <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> We want this <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> podcast to be discovered <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> by others. <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> So please <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> take a minute to go to <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> itunes to rate <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> the podcast <Speech_Music_Male> and perhaps even writer review <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> more <Speech_Music_Male> information about this <Speech_Music_Male> and other episodes <Speech_Male> can be found at our website <Speech_Male> stem talk <Speech_Male> dot. US <Speech_Male> there you can also <Speech_Male> find more information <Speech_Male> about guests. <SpeakerChange> We interview <Music>
"yehuda" Discussed on STEM-Talk
"So Rachel I understand that your new interests that you're very excited about is. MD assisted psychotherapy for PTSD. We recently interviewed Dr Dave Raven who has spent spent more than a decade studying the impact of chronic stress in humans. And you're collaborating with Dave and others on an EPA genetic study comparing different PSYCHEDELIC therapies with non medicine techniques for for treatment resistant. PTSD and as we learned. Dave like you is very excited about the potential of MD AMA assisted psychotherapy before. We talk about your collaboration with Dave. Can you give our listeners sense of wire so excited about this novel approach to treatment. Oh yes all you have to do is read the data that came out of the face to trials and you cannot get excited about the fact that sixty eight percent of people that were treated in those trials no longer met criteria cheering for PTSD and maintained their gains even one year later no treatment for PTSD in my lifetime has produced those kinds effects. So thing it's really something to get excited about absolutely and the MD.. Ama study that you and others are collaborating on what they've raven has starred it's face three trial with FDA day talked to us about some of the dramatic outcomes that occurred in face to. You're just talking about. Can you give listeners. Overview of what's going on with this study and how. MDA India may could be licensed and actually become a medicine. Yes so so the MD May trials are in face three and if the results are you've never as good at phase three as they were in phase two than I think it would make a compelling case for getting an FDA approval and what's so fascinating to me about about the MDA assisted psychotherapy is that it really allows us to change the paradigm of how trauma treatment should be done and and in a way that makes so much sense to me because when you think about it people have post traumatic stress disorder symptoms because a gigantic event occurred. That released stayed with them and I think that therapy should also be a gigantic killing event. That then stays with them. And what happens is With MD AMA is that you have the combination of a very powerful and intense psychological intervention on the sessions. Sessions are about eight hours long and there's a lot of preparation and integration around those sessions coupled with psychedelic which has the opportunity of altering one state of consciousness and creating the optimal environment for change by allowing a lot of the Emotions that usually we come up and prevent people from engaging with trauma to be held at bay so when people receive. MDA they feel less ashamed unless guilty and it's like all the doors that usually have that really prevent you from accessing the trauma all the fears that you have that the trauma will bring up too much coach really negative emotion. The kind of quieted down all of those portals and it allows you for a certain period of time to really be able all to access traumatic material and look at it in a different way. So it's a very powerful combination and then when you're done people report really feeling dramatically better and so the way that I guess I like to think about it or talk about it is that it's analogous to having an experience slight giving birth rate which is a very log in intense period where you have contractions and you're going through labor and it's for the purpose of bringing something fourth fourth and it can take a few hours and it's not always pleasant but the people by your side at that time our coaching you through labor and are are helping you trying to deliver something thing. You're doing most of the work. I think it's the same thing is true with trauma treatment that there's something that you have to confront you have to feel your feelings. You have to get in touch with the fact that something terrible happened. That made you feel very vulnerable and afraid and with these forty five minute or even ninety minute sessions that you have week after after week after week. It's almost like you're starting and stopping each time. And you're not really able to have this opportunity to have continuous breakthrough. So when I saw those those videos at the At the maps training. I just really got it that it takes time. You have to sit by someone side while they are in an optimal state that is conducive for doing the work. That is probably best done all at once. I mean we have a lot of models for this surgeries of model for this pregnancy's model for does does and maybe for trauma treatment. Maybe this is a new paradigm for psychotherapy that you get in the best possible mental state. That is induced by psychedelics. Likes and you go and I don't think either of those things alone has the same power that they have been combination and so really excited for the possibility of it so sort of on that theme. Actually I read somewhere in interview where you said something like my career has been enhanced by the fact that early on nobody nobody believes much in. PTSD and well now. I almost think that we've become a victim of our own success in many ways. Because I think we've ended up really pathologising in it to a large extent. I find that really interesting. If it's inaccurate quote could you elaborate on that yet. Sounds like something I would say I think I think what I meant by that. First part of the quote was that there's a tremendous advantage in studying something that no one else is studying and many people don't don't even think is a real thing and it was my experience early in my career that many peop- ball wondered about whether ptsd was a real diagnosis. That wasn't already already covered in mood and anxiety disorders more generally and in fact I think some of the unique biologic aspects of. PTSD has really helped make the argument demint that PTSD can be very distinct from other kinds of syndromes like mutterings -iety disorders which often ironically co occur with PTSD tst. So I think that I had this advantage because I was doing work in a field that nobody was paying much attention to. But now everyone's paying attention to it and So what I mean by victim of its own success is that I sometimes wonder whether we're too quick to give somebody somebody a label. That pathology is a normal human reaction to adversity and the question is really how long after exposure to Trauma Rama when you're dealing with the aftermath for what period of time Mrs just a normal recalibration. That isn't kind of an illness that needs to be intervened intervened with an a medical way. So it's more of a comment about wanting to see trauma treatment or approaches to healing Ling. Be shared outside of traditional psychiatry particularly in the early phases where we can use community supports and really just try understand what what components of the response are part of just normal human struggles with adversity and trying to recalibrate and getting one's ground around back. We're trying to understand the impact in how to go forward with the new normal does does that make sense. Absolutely event I relate to that I share the a yearly career experience of studying something that many people thought did not exist or was in fact impossible I'm a researcher and Dada and now at this point in my career. It's the opposite problem. It's widely overestimated and Zina sort of magic beans. The Transition Shen has been amazing. Yeah I think that there are certain really intransigent. PTSD cases they look different. They feel different down some of the stuff that can be labeled as PTSD. But probably don't reflect this kind of an entr e discount of an entrenched biologically logically dis- regulated disorder but actually just represent the process which may end up resolving. So I just want to be very careful. There is such a delicate nuanced balance between stigmatization invalidation. Sometimes absolutely and so I. I JUST WANNA make sure we keep struggling to get that right. It's a really great point Rachel as much as you enjoyed. Philosophy of he is a youth. Were very glad that you decided to become a scientists because your body of work is incredibly impressive and impactful however I understand that a fate intervened and and suddenly you could no longer be a scientist. You would want to be a musician. Is that right. I would love to be a musician. Actually my my dream is to be part of Jolie. Dues News Band Hero of mine. Apparently you have a little bit of experience appearing on stage as a singer and we actually have a youtube youtube video of you which linked to our show notes appearing on stage at the annual meeting of the International Society of Psycho Neuro endocrinology. That was in New York City and the saw that you saying saying was titled The Grant Song and what I would like to know is. Did you write the lyrics to that awesome song. Yes I wrote it. In collaboration with the people that performed formed with me Two magnificent human beings at Dr David Spiegel and Dr Tom Nyland and we wrote it together. We wrote a lot of songs together. Other will not a lot but we wrote a few Like disclaimed his. Your gland porn ship has tough tall part and fund it is this David Spiegel from Stanford. Yes very talented musician. He's wonderful and he was in an earlier episode soda stem talk a whole band for me. Get your whole band gotta have a band reunion. Yeah well Rachel this has been a lot of fun and once you decide to retire from Mount Sinai. We think you have a great future as a singer Songwriter. And we'll be looking forward to hearing your clever songs. Thank you very much. Yeah thanks Rachel. There's been a great interview..
Can we inherit trauma from our ancestors?
"We have Andrew Curry. He's a journalist based in Berlin and this week he wrote on inherited trauma. I Andrew Okay so this is about be genetics. It's been around a long time but it's kind of morphing in its definition. Can you give us the latest on that different. People mean different things when they talk about epigenetics with the the basic concept is there are ways in which organisms inherit traits that are maybe not genetic so we have DNA the strict genetic code but increasingly scientists are finding other ways in which traits are passed down through generations and they're trying to figure out what the exact mechanisms are and some organisms. It's really easy and the more complicated the organism that trickier it is figure out how these things are passed on outside of the genetic code <hes> so for example some of the EPA genetic mechanisms might involve modifications to DNA or it might be a different set of molecules altogether that are being inherited through the cells that make up the offspring yes so so it's all modifications a two D. N. A. in the thorough lots of different kinds of proteins in the cell that help when the D._n._a. is telling the cell what proteins to make how to develop and their different ways that these small proteins can signal signal the cell to read more or less off of the genetic code or can turn off gene so to speak so that certain traits aren't passed on or certain traits are passed on in amplified ways. You know it's not something that's in the the D._N._A.. itself it's more things that affect how the cell reads the D._N._A.. Right at the very moment that the cell I divides now that's one of millions of subsequent divisions. If you have a tiny impact after the very beginning right it can have a massive consequence down the loan. Let's talk about when epigenetics this different form of inheritance. I got linked to the idea of trauma. What are some of the early examples of those lakes people started looking at how the environment chain diet exposure to extreme colds or exposure to high level of chemicals could affect what was inherited and then probably about fifteen twenty years ago some researchers? Started looking or noticing other effects during experiments and one researcher in particular who I spoke with Isabelle Swing. She's at the University of Zurich and E.. T. H.. Eric created a mouse model because she wanted to study borderline personality personality disorder and so she was traumatizing baby mice by separating them from their mother at unpredictable intervals and then she noticed that the offspring of those baby mice often hadn't same behavioral symptoms of trauma that the parents Prince two and sometimes those behavioral symptoms went on for several generations. The idea here is that it's not just physical deprivation of food or exposure to a lot of coal. It's there's something about the psychology or you know emotional states of the the mice that are being passed down the ideas that the stress of trauma the stress of being separated from from your parents the stress of traumatic childhood you could be with your parents. Your parents could be neglectful. Those levels of stress caused chemical changes in your body that then affect how your d._n._A. is encoded and that those changes can be so powerful. They're passed on even to your offspring that didn't directly experience trauma right so this this researcher that you mentioned she has looked at this for generations and generations of mice she does some experiments where she's gone out five generations and she still sees behavior in the offspring of traumatize mice that she doesn't see see in control mice and that's even when she does the separation but then like the children are the children of the children have been exposed to separation from a parent. This is kind of the crux of the the question that's that was a challenge challenge for her in terms of the experimental design and it's been one of the main criticisms when people look at humans is really hard to separate what is EPA genetic trauma what is sort of biologically transmitted and what is just the stress yes of living with a parent that has been traumatised because your parents are that are part of your environment so these kids environmental effects exactly so how she the way she controlled for that is she only studied the mail so she would traumatize is male mice and then breed them with females but take the males out but the females the mothers of the subsequent generations hadn't been traumatized so there was no bad parenting so to speak and yet she still found differences teams in the mouth behavior so this is all behaviors you can you know judge based on that that something is being inherited but the biological mechanism is is still is still pretty far away from being understood in mice and in other organisms they've also so found changes in sperm and blood and other tissues of things called small non coding Arnaiz which are these things that help the body re- D._N._A.. And this small all non coding are in a in a traumatized mouse or David looked at traumatize. People is different in specific ways than in non traumatize people okay so there is some and those those are passed down subsequent generations yet outing sees changes in the Arnaiz later as well. The big question is how does it get from for example the blood of the parent to the sperm of the child and later than to the brain of child let alone. Alone the child's child that sort of that whole middle bit is what is still really unclear. Let's turn to the human here for a minute. One of the first places this was talked about was with respect to the Holocaust so can you talk about what what the research has shown with respect to Holocaust survivors a few years ago a researcher named Rachel Yehuda looked at the children of Holocaust survivors and found that they had higher levels of depression but also lower levels of specific stress hormones and different kinds of EPA genetic markers called D._N._a.. methylation than people whose parents had been born in the U._S.. <hes> from sort of similar ages in cohorts and argued that this could be evidence of EPA genetic trauma but that study was criticized at the time for the reasons that that I mentioned earlier you know a lot of people said well. It makes sense intuitively that if your parents survived the Holocaust they might behave differently at home that might be stressful in a different way and so that is solid enough evidence of this biological mechanism that they found in mice. There is an ongoing project that you talked about with <hes> children in an orphanage. How are they looking at that situation and asking questions about EPI genetic inheritance? It's really hard in humans to do ethical L. experiments over multiple generations so basically what they're doing right now is looking at humans who have been traumatized to see if they have changes in these EPA genetic marks and then using those to design mouse studies to understand how that might be carried across multiple generations and in the Pakistan example. This is now orphanage. This is the orphanage in Pakistan so a researcher WHO's part of Isabel Might Matsui's lab is working with orphans in Pakistan whose fathers have died and they were forcibly separated from their mothers because their mothers weren't able to earn enough money to support them and they're put in orphanages which they argue is fairly close to their mouse model that had how they're separated from the mother as children and they see different levels of these are in these kids blood and they're using those kids as sort of a starting point to then design better mouse experiments to understand how that it might be transmitted through different generations but to do a human experiment you would have to look at those kids kids and follow refer multiple generations and so for a whole range of reasons. It's extremely difficult coulter controlled intervention experiments in humans right. We should point out that the children in the orphanage are there's an intention from the people taking care of them to make sure that they're not traumatized. Yeah I mean this is a situation. The already happened this was not they didn't separate them from their mothers for the purpose of the experiment of course and they're being given great care they go to the same schools. This is actually another interesting part of the experiment they go to the same schools as local kids. It's who still live with their parents so they're also looking at the local kids who still live with their parents to see if there are differences and it's voluntary. These kids get good care New York's fridges by there still something about this experience that they. I went through that is really difficult seems to have biological backs. I WanNa ask you what it means what we should do about it but I feel that the really big question you know it's it's a great question. <hes> <hes> I think one of the most hopeful things to come out of the story for me was again something that seems sort of intuitive but has been lost a lot in the discussion of epigenetics because I think a lot of people here this idea that Oh my my grandparents parents were traumatized and therefore have this unavoidable legacy of pain right but there have been some early experiments again in mice where if you intervene with basically sort of happy cages they call them enriched environments governments. You can reverse this biological process. Yeah we actually had I think we had a segment on happiness in in mice and rats and how giving them things to do and making them comfortable in their environment can yeah it can change the way experiments turn out yeah and so one of the arguments that several the researchers made is rather than looking at this as a sort of a stigma and a mark we should maybe you know if we can identify by these things use them to identify people who will benefit from therapy or maybe we should just this is where it's sort of intuitive. Maybe we should just give all children in which are yeah and that this is not <hes> an unavoidable burden but something that we can look at as reversible and that we should be looking at it as reversible not something that we should be working towards. Thank you so much Andrew Thank you Andrew. Curry is a journalist based in Berlin Orlando. You can find a link to his future at science mag dot org slash
"yehuda" Discussed on Pat Gray Unleashed
"If accepted would be offered a scholarship that would cover tuition room board and a living stipend would also allow him to study clarinet under yehuda gilaad and don't pretend like you don't know who yehuda gill out is the world famous teacher okay so he goes there he tries out and he's looking forward to getting an offer he gets the offer he's accepted through an email before he gets a chance to see the email she sees it and says he takes this he's gonna move away from me so she's declines the offer replies to the mail as him elsewhere collide your offer then she deletes the letter then she creates another account to impersonate the teacher and she said an email to her boyfriend saying that the study at another school was with a much smaller scholarship okay what she knew he would not be able to afford and would stay where he belonged where she thinks belongs with now he believed at all right he's still he stays montreal he's still with her it worked all out for her she believed at all now he he's going to another thing where he's playing clarinet thing clarinet thing and he sees you gila the teacher and the teacher says why did you reject me your grade i wanna do it by wanted to class i wanted to teach you he is like what reject you what are you talk about i have no idea what you're talking about i would've would've accepted i never got i got a rejection letter from you know it all starts to fall apart now where it goes down they catch your the trap so now he is he's absolutely getting better deal and he's going to school nowadays gilly out his teaching him and he's gonna get we'll see if it gets the money from her right good luck god bless from that but amazing that she goes through all these hoops just to get him to stay because she doesn't want him to go and and learn abroad in los angeles when she wants in montreal and so she goes through all that and it worked for awhile to until he crossed the path.
"yehuda" Discussed on Stance
"These weather the epa trinity factors that we have identified as being linked to trauma and its transmission across generations in mice whether they are also entered in human we have already accessed several cohorts the cohorts can be different we have for instance a cohort of young children while oftens in pakistan which we also have access to soldiers were deployed in iraq and afghanistan in two thousand three four and five i think and these people in most of them have petisi and we looked at the summit paternity factors that we know are you know mice and other evidence you've seen maybe other people that are working in this area that would suggest that there is such a thing as intergenerational trauma in humans or yes i mean there is a rachel yehuda she's been working on holocaust since twenty or even twenty five years and she has looked at the con sequences of of a exposure to holocaust on unpaid hugh indigent even offer of people who survived from the whole so she he really provides evidence there are other studies which looked at the descendants of randa mother some others were pregnant during the run that genocide which was a genocide in hundred ninety four it's it lasted a few months and the there was a small cohort of women who have children at the time and the women from the same village of same cities who flew in the next countries neighboring countries and who were surrounded by his war atmosphere but who did not expand its pull my themselves and this study also showed that they are consequences in in the tune of these women children who were born in ninety four so the on twenty twenty four now but to the number of cities like this.
Germans of different faiths wear skullcaps to protest anti-Semitism
"Troubling troubling stories coming out of germany yes and our good friend simon owen reports around one hundred and fifty people of various faiths wearing a jewish skullcap at a protest in f foot germany but further rallies times in other cities they submit growing consensus about anti semitism last week two men wearing skullcaps for attack in berlin pie man shouting jew in arabic geminis main jewish leader is advised against wearing the kipah in public will though others disagree hardy yourselves that is not the solution to anti semitism lane rabbi yehuda typed out saying quote we have to be proud of who we are it london simon folks news so there are those who will make a correlation between the burqa and the skullcap worn by those of the jewish faith is that fair concerned greet is because it has to do with the very bottom line which is prejudice and violence and the intolerance that is demonstrated by the way there was was there not in german music award ceremony at a band that espoused anti semite themes in their music or giving awards i mean it's we here at hawaii often times we are fairly isolated we promote we celebrate the diversity that we have here amongst ethnicities and faith and race and gender and sexual orientation and all of that and for the most part we are a community that is very inclusive very tolerant and very accepting we got our moments too we have our incidents and we have locations and things of that nature where you have to be aware just have to have a heads up but this overt attacks by screaming the reason why the violence is happening that's that's brutal your newsradio this does this define all of berlin does this define the german society as we know it today absolutely not however when you start having incidents like these and if they begin to multiply and they begin to be passively addressed then there is an empowerment to those weak minded individuals who participate in this and that's the entree to the propagandistic influencers to those that will take impressionable people and use that as justification for the hatred and the manifestation of hatred against others that's why i'm a big proponent you stem it you stop it he rejected and there is a consequence in the promotion of violence not just the purpose.
"yehuda" Discussed on The Fighter And The Kid
"He my mind we're here well here's here's out because dopey don't cheapen the ship broking not cheap and that is humor lock to prison thrilled on on on the warden i learned is keep it down in their lights out i think he starts to cry who who uh this will be on the ice i didn't do at home welcoming ry first of all and nobody going to touch of in this bitch sweetie and nobody should be talked alleged tough now the snap you just the skin if i am daddy knows hope for all hands daddy knows how to throw his hands in daddy i'll take it to the ground and i'm going to teach you a couple thanks i am going to teach you would have fuel load arrives why parents calendar i'm gonna come down there might get off my bumped on our get down there in the senate an eminent make sure you make sure that nobody gets nobody breaks in it and if somebody does break him so i want to be here next to you so i can fend them off what will have to deal in exchange for your security over first with little it's not the biggest ben yehuda and face the wall here here shh other union such as nathan china's only five five get the fuck i that's not true i don't believe that he six foot nathan chance five five thirty does look through ice skater right i thought he was six foot too you know you did it sorry sorry i had to ruin sorry everybody either ruin that movie why i got distracted we're having why was about to have sex with my boyfriend but nathan chen's only five five two third ice skater oh i didn't know that i'd lengthy he will not look really tall though.
"yehuda" Discussed on Fresh Air
"As bad but i didn't want to say that men use religion in different ways and they sometimes use it in bad ways did writing godless f heck you're religious or nonreligious life at all and i i have never really been particularly religious i'm fascinated by the stories that come from religion and by the rituals of religion and the beauty and the art that's all come from religion but i i believe i'm that we all have a spiritual side but i don't necessarily believe that it's tethered to a god so there's a poem that they're preacher reads after he shows up and it's a beautiful poem i expected him to be reading from the bible i thought like yeah that's not from the bible 'now thank you um it's got where does that poem come from it comes from a jewish poet in either late eleven century early twelve censoring name yehuda a levy nailbomb saying that right and i'd stumbled across that poem a year or two after i had completed the feature script for godless and night been trying to get it made in was having trouble getting it made as a movie and i just thought if i ever go back into the script this would be a great thing to have in the in this in the story and what i'd really written down on a card was tisza fearful thing to love what death can touch that phrase itself was enough for me and i thought maybe i'll put it on the headstone i'm not sure how i'm going to use if it is such a beautiful phrase i need to put it somewhere in the story it just seems so right.
"yehuda" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett
"With post traumatic stress disorder and also their offspring have a very dynamic stress system that is really highly sensitive to environmental provocation you can act so in therapy on one of the women was talking about something stressful that had happen at work it was in a group psychotherapy and was a terrible story but then she stabbed in she said and then i remembered a doctor yehuda said i have poor shockabsorbers at i should just let it pass the hut biology is going to have extreme responses before comes down and then i did and it really work now i didn't say that hasn't back lever but what was so interesting was how she had internalized the information that her stress system was more responsive and had used it to actually um calm down all by herself in response to a a stressful situation so i pointed that out of course because they had nothing to do with me but but it's just the power of information that patten acknowledged as a form of power outages in knowledge exactly and i think if we know what's going on in our bodies then it just takes a lot of the confusion and the panigate away from it especially if we have this idea that this is a step on the way to having a having an equal abrasion of some sort does does why you're learning also hold for parents who let's say i'll just be really all distribution be personal who you know i've i've struggled with depression at times and i think when you have something like that you you know if course we know that genetically there can be prediced treat predispositions for these things but i i also feels like it's in this category of something that you worry about passing on to your children in every possible way i mean i don't know i'm too steep dis dis this also there all these they're all kinds of things that we pay and i mean it ended that depression does you know can feel like a form of trauma in its way.
"yehuda" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett
"And that was released huge for us and it opened a lot of our own tours for us because we began to understand that some of the differences between maternal and paternal trauma and risk might have to do with the very special in you'd roe changes or new row contributions to what we call developmental programming which is really about changing the stress system so that it can have this greater repertoire so you asked me a concrete question of what i would say to a second or third trimester mother what i generally say to people that have a lot more to overcome because they're biology has given their condition a firmer reality is that you have to work harder or you have to understand that a lot of what you have is biologically driven an i find that just this information to fame for him just naming just the information and there was one time in one of the holocaust groups um one of the women was talking about something stressful that it happened at work it was in a group psychotherapy and was a terrible story but then she stabbed in she said and then i remembered a doctor yehuda said i have poor shockabsorbers at i should just let it pass because i biology is going to have extreme responses before comes down and then i did and it really work now i didn't say that hasn't back lever but what was so interesting was how she had internalized the information that her stress system was more responsive and had used it to actually um come down all by herself in response to a stressful situation so i pointed that out of course 'cause they had nothing to do with me but but it's just the power of information that patten aren't as a form of power and all exactly and i think if we know what's going on in our bodies.
"yehuda" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett
"And then it went from there we decided to drive to cleveland um a bunch of us and test the i fought the sis that um holocaust survivors were similar to the at phnom veterans and essentially what we found is that there were a lot more similarities than we would have ever dreamed of and that they also had peace low cortisol levels tim and the same chemical markers were their biological mother that that is what we observe and um in terms of the fact that holocaust survivors of notoriously were not treatment seeking in mental health yeah um you know we asked holocaust survivors about that and we we asked them about the symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder we asked about nightmares we asked about flashbacks we asked about those things they had been suffering many of them for decades with these symptoms and when we asked will did ever occur to you to go and seek help many of them said who could understand what we had gone through and one woman said to me you know dr yehuda we don't have vas like your veteran's do and i thought to myself whoa and when went home and within two weeks we established a holocaust clinic for holocaust survivors at mount sinai and the the field that you again very new young even younger feel that you have not only stepped onto it helped are helping to shape is this this world of of epigenetics which is the idea that not only do experiences lodge physiologically but that physiological changes can actually be passed on to the next generation transmitted generation only transgenerational early.
"yehuda" Discussed on Bobbycast
"For them to continue play and don't endure situation doesn't your record company no that's the game like that's going to happen here they should have accounted for those being there and figured out a way to yeah no i mean not only at one time on us and not i'm tolerant organ pass off again as an avenue because of puzzle vitamins and probably a year but i get mad again a chance of is she says she still rayo yeah okay well there you go you did ruin her career myth i elle as i do much but she yehuda but yeah but you're right so if i have this weird thing where i don't take any banned plan their songs either i never a given by a heads up route because i don't want anyone go alibaba so i'll find that i love it a play it and then i'm like you're going to suffer next week hopefully ever story hopefully you know if some as will have a deal like a christians and and have a deal he popped gallagher deal sometimes it's still support the internet like mirren i just don't hate off the internet and played it and jit it's not even song chevrolets assumption wrote air boat i'm lucky i get to do that now that's awesome both and as we will yell at me and they're drunken i you run my career there were then is our place for you to be and if you wanna do there and then trying to figure out how to did you can't maintain their it will be impossible i can't play at the one way then every week lagged at all we never relating all new and the thing about new my show is that large worth the songs that i do play have to be such we don't buy a music we played three or four thongkam an hour here so they happy monster hits sure and when.
"yehuda" Discussed on BuzzFeed's The Library: A Drag Race RuCap
"When it apparently wasn't blatantly obvious wireless was painted green rate were all like oh well you're kind of doing this alphabet thing but then you're not because he didn't talk about it and radical ya just because i'm painted green i'm not alphabet because i have done i dunno you know if people go back and check my receipts i have done like a full alphabet allusion several times which i love um but basically because the judges commented on it and they were like you know it was kind of alpha but but it wasn't i was like okay and i thought to myself there's a little fell which has hat floating around that work room net i think that they brought it out i think it was like a prop presented to us for the princess design challenge share and i remember it floating around and i was like a meet that fact an excuse me i need that bleeping hat you can curse it's the internet okay i need that fucking hat so i just went and i found at and i was like okay i'm gonna stick with up in my pammy out when i need to just to kinda bring it full circle for them because it's like yeah i think it it was a way to say i'm laughing at this i have a sense of humor and i'm listening to you right you know and it was fun you know everybody off everybody likes his surprise and ellipse inc absolutely well much like alphabet the alexis michelle you can't bring me down yehuda is the it was so much fun watching you this season thank you so much for stopping by and talking to us today and i really hope we get to see you know more shades of the krill the box on youth as your career continue us thank you so much for having me what a dream of course thank you so much and with that the library is close.
"yehuda" Discussed on The Tel Aviv Review
"The hebrewlanguage being recognised because remember one of the achievements of zionism of the return of the jewish people to the land of israel was the the revival or the the modern it's a reawakening of the hebrewlanguage agnone together with bialik can so many other figures was part of the language wars that went on here in the early decades of the twentieth century he was not such a fan of elliot's urban yehuda uh they didn't like the idea that ben yehuda was called the reviver of the language because in order to revive language as the first be dead they did not accepted language was did he brew was always the language of scholarship and prayer and learn a people and literature and other things but it certainly underwent a reawakening arroyo a an arguments hebrews so to my mind places of modern hebrew speak out more traditional than his of his contemporary of the gallic and and the one also point out i mean this is such an interesting point that i think it's worth many more time on that it's not just the terminology that he's is in the idiomatic expressions in references to all those jewish commentary but it's way back to even the cadence of the bible and i was looking at the translation that you did of of the translate of to the galilee and i just wanna quoted briefly because it's so interesting how it how it really recalls biblical stories that says and i quote i departed jaffa and walked nine hours to there'a arriving at night i found a place to sleep at a roadside in leased by an arab i bathed my feet in hot water rubbed them with olive oil.
"yehuda" Discussed on The Start
"And i was in the first graders secondgrade and i remember play games on it this is like this was back in the day of like there's very very uneven note there was with the you i i think there was i don't think i was lucky like on the command line you unlike hackers stuff on but there was like is very simple back in the day a man i robe like eventually at some point i looked up in us in a rota a simple textbased game in basic it's just like if you want to enter of this room press yes lord owen some some really like it out silly little game mean i you know i always kind of enjoyed the i think i've always tried to create stuff and so that you know it was very easy way to create stuff's yup nothing that guy did your dad know engineering soft so like was it while his things were you tinkering on your on board with it something you'd you'd added together um he he was in the field but a lot of this stuff i can do on my own a you know he was he was pretty busy and yehuda who definitely helped me figure stuff out but it was when he was very much like a it was hands there was really a snap leslie together putting together something like that i can only imagine what's going on you data that time because if he's in the field he's probably super excited that you have some mild interest in right uh because the something you can share together but if he is to involved than you might step back and big now i don't want to do any more because maybe like being force but then if you're if he's not involved enough the navy you lose interest like there is this an affiliate that happens it doesn't matter what it is whether it's a dad who wants their son to play baseball or a a set of parents i want their kids to be academicallyinclined it doesn't matter what it is i feel like i can only imagine how hard that is to be apparent.