18 Episode results for "Yambol"

#105 Elite Gamer Internet For An Extra $15/mo

Latest In Tech News

22:46 min | 1 year ago

#105 Elite Gamer Internet For An Extra $15/mo

"You eat gamer internet for an extra fifteen dollars a month in more coming up on today's episode of the latest news. Egede here. You're just in time for the latest episode, the world's only three and one show on tech gadgets in gamy news. And that's right. This is related in tech news near and right place. My name is tale. American. Obviously our feature story today is we'll be looking at an internet provider selling elite gamer internet looking a little bit more into that. Well, whilst be looking at a Microsoft making a change to windows. Ten passwords while also be looking at a new hero added to legal legends. And we'll be looking at call of duty twenty nineteen everything we know so far now keep in mind today Saturday as of when I'm recording this right now. And you're probably wondering paler, what are you doing? It's saturday. Why are you recording episode on on Saturday? Well couple days ago. I promise you guys that I would do an episode on Saturday just to make up for a crazy hectic week. I know most of April of. Thousand nineteen if you're listening to this in the future, April of twenty nineteen of the very busy week in which I wasn't able to do an episode every single week day netted take a couple of days off during the week or one or two because I've been working behind the scenes on a very big important project that I'm excited, and I'll let you guys in a little bit more. Let's consider this a step up to the insiders program as it were a more community oriented goal for us. Gadget. Here's those of us who at least call ourselves at Nyquil you guys gadget here because you enjoy tech news as much as I do. I don't know. It's just something. I call you guys. A previous group when I used to do a blog. Yeah. But you didn't even know that back a handful of years ago. I lived in Taiwan, and I did a daily blog for about a year and continued for several years thereafter, and I called my group of subscribers on YouTube conspirators that was fun for a while. But outside of that. You'll be. Peeling back paid a little bit more in next couple of days to see what have I've been working on behind the scenes. For past month. And I gotta say you guys are gonna love it. I've been having to make sure everything runs. Okay. Every variable is covered. Everything's taken care of in behind the scene. So that you guys can enjoy the experience. I don't have to worry about having to go in and look at this or going to change that because it's all going to work as flawlessly as my mind craft server did back in a day. Yes. Also, fun fact about you didn't know, I didn't I ran a Minecraft server for good couple years. No prior server, experienced matter of fact, hated Yambol which is the only coating language, we could use to figure out how to use plug ins and management and everything else around running a Minecraft server he'd that language so much, but anyways, a little bit of long issue rant because I wanted to explain why I'm doing a Saturday show, so considerate. An extra gift at added bonus as you will. Well, if you aren't aware, I don't make it a point to do these every single Saturday from here on out or or regularly over the weekends like plan on keeping this week day show. For the time being if that changes down the road. Well, I'll let you guys know what the changes are going forward. So also, there will be no, did, you know facts for tech today. I just didn't have time case you don't live in Milwaukee or in the upper midwest near Lake Michigan as it were. We got smacked by a freak snowstorm that was supposedly dumping how many inches of snow five two eight two two two four to maybe one two three two turns out so far like sprinkling on the ground. But nobody knows how to drive in winter weather here in Milwaukee. Wisconsin. Curses of people not knowing how to drive so. Yeah. Just stay home. So that's why we haven't had that for while at least yesterday and today, but we do have today in tech history. So let's hop right. On over showy. Right being that today is April twenty seven twenty nineteen on this day in nineteen Eighty-one. Xerox introduces the Xerox eighty ten star information system, the first commercial system utilizing a computer mouse with onto Putten's among the now commonplace technologies that eighty ten was geared towards business and was really a commercial success, basically. 'cause the probably the business individual that time. Like would is this weird thing called computer mouse in why do I have to press two buttons? When everything is I just type keyboard? I know to keep our command keys mouses suck. Well, obviously that didn't work it remained in relative obscurity until the apple Lisa will more prominently. The Apple Macintosh brought the mouse into the mainstream in the coming decades. And also on this day in nineteen ninety five the Justice. Soothes to black Microsoft's purchase of into it. And if the name sounds familiar, they're the ones who owned turbo tax in other software related products in terms of accounting business management, record, keeping taxes all that kind of stuff. So Justice department sues to block Microsoft's corporates corporations. Purchase of Intuit sane deal. Could be to hire software prices in diminish innovation. Okay. Well, this is one of many in the ongoing struggle between Microsoft and federal government or the company's domination of the software industry. I do have to say entertaining. I'll probably get into this in a later date. But for those of you who have no idea Microsoft in federal government has been this ongoing interestingly involved in depth on battle feud. I dunno between federal government regulation in how much oversight there should be in corporation trying to figure out just how much can monopolize or or squish other companies out of business or prevent them from becoming of major success in or absorbing them or trying to figure out how much profits they can squeeze out in how innovative can be in can't be in. I dunno fun of both worlds. Maybe I'll get into that one of these days, but we actually have to get onto today's tech news. So let's head on over to our feature story. All right first up in internet provider. One whose name is infamous in the halls of is P is selling in elite gamer service. You heard me right leak service. Eweek service internet service provider. Cox communications is offering a new tier of internet service called elite gamer for an additional fifteen dollars a month, the promise low latency, which means less leg for optimal gaming performance. Cox communications new offering is technically Lille, but arguably flies in the face of the highly debated subject of net neutrality, which was repealed in the United States in twenty eighteen in essence that neutrality is active treating all lanes are connections of data on internet same without giving certain connections a fast past. I'm going to stay on that. Because there's lot of varying thought in terms of that I've already come to my own opinion. Not quite as simple as that sentence. But I'll leave it be for now if you actually do want to know my full opinion on what I think of net neutrality, please leave a comment. Let me know I'll be happy to discuss this at a later date, or if you have foster share be interested to hear about what you have to say is. Well, apparently there f a q document says they want to offer the fastest past your gaming server by reducing legs bikes with its elite gamer tier internet anticipating the negative reactions from net neutrality supporters. They told motherboard that it's a leap or offering does not prioritise any traffic over other than our network or ultra speed in any way. If it doesn't alter the speed or prioritize traffic, though, how is in a league game internet connection any different from any other. Are you guys literally just bumping the download and upload speeds by fifteen dollars? Month Unal currently in America. At least we're already paying hand over fifth internet with very few options available depending on location, and I'll while we would love to have more fiber internet locations. It's limited right now to vary. Select metropolitan cities in areas in big enough to handle all that. So currently Cox has the opportunity to sell service to a limited number of people in Arizona as part of its ongoing trial. It will then evaluate how to go forward from there. According to the article over at motherboards. So if you live in Arizona, you have Cox internet, you might be having an option or hearing of an option soon for elite game or internet. And if you wanna go look into that. And let us know how it works or it doesn't work. Hey, let us know. We'd like to stay in touch. See how it actually works out? If it's worth paying for. If this is something that may be roll out across bull other internet service providers. Take notice will they? To incorporate this into their offering as well. I know we'll we'll see time will tell. Menendez. Some tech news that nobody really thought coming. Although I have to say I is coming have to say, it's pretty entertaining. It's article comes to us from Forbes dot com, and by the way, if you're looking for the show notes or links to the article is discussed in today's show head on over to tech news gadget dot net Ford slash one zero five or if you're listening to podcast app right now. However, you get more details popping swiping swooshing. Can you do that on phone or I don't know you'll have the showing right there? No. You have to do is tap on your article title. It'll take you right to it. So ask a bunch of security professionals. What makes a secure password, and you get a bunch of different answers. Some will argue that it's all about length. Others at randomness and complexity are king while everyone will agree that password reuse is never acceptable. Some. We'll still argue that giving passwords an expiration date after which they must be. As an essential part of the business security policy picture, but it would appear that with the arrival of the windows ten may update Microsoft is finally no longer going to be amongst that ladder group, according to Aaron mcglesias, a principal consultant with Microsoft Windows. Ten will no longer recommend ancient and obsolete periodic password expiration in a security baseline settings with the may update going forward will be most welcome. It has to be said. Well, nobody in the security business really thought I coming. Not least the arguments for password expiration have been completely incomprehensively. It's mantle for some years. Now, yet, Microsoft has not shown indication to jump from this particular sinking security ship. Kind of. This actually brings into my own personal experience when I worked at a financial company I had to use windows based computers, I had to change my password every three months in it. Drove me nuts. It's actually one of the points that they bring out in this article, which is you see if you tell individuals, and this is something that they were able to find out in research in asking security professionals in talking to people about is that if you continually tell a person to change their password every three months or two months, or whatever the security setting is they're not going to change entirely. They're going to do slight variations on that same password to which end means that they're more likely to make mistakes onset passer to have to reset the password to be something different to lock themselves on many occasions out of the computer not able to use it. So what's the purpose of setting a password experts? I mean, I understand the reason why you'd want to do it. But it almost seems benign if they don't get the password to use it in a passer dirty secure enough. The only way that the hackers gonna be able to get in is within sixty day window. And if they don't know what the password is will they ain't gonna have no idea how to get in. And if they did the user should be. Who has the password who had it stolen should be at least comprehensive smart enough, comprehensive smart enough to go. I think my password might be compromised and Manley, go in and change it in person to be like, oh, I can't computer like me out. Yeah. See? Just bunch of interesting complexities in conversations at guarantee, you took out took place at least five or six years ago about this old archaic form of password. Expiration I dunno if I'm completely wrong on this topic. Let me know do they do the schools have like a password expiration, if you're in a computer lab, let me know as well. I obviously haven't been in school for like the past decade or then, and then some simply because I don't graduated I live in the real world and real world has all this fun stuff to deal with so, yeah, I'm only reading part of the article the rest of the article, I will leave to you to read if you're interested in more information. Moving on to thumb gaining news league of legends is adding a new friendly hero Yumi, the magical cat enters actually video that goes along with it to it's bouncing happy little kitten on what do you mean about curly watching my parents and families cat while they're off on a vacation and can't get into. The fun that goes on in this house. I don't have a proper recording studio record in the room in the house. So obviously, I don't have any control over anything. I also side of noises made beyond me. So yeah, legal legends is adding a new character to the game in a form of Yumi. The magical cat, you is a magical Catt hailing from battle city once girdle entrances millier after the chances Nora disappeared. Yumi took over as keeper of north book of thresholds in a bid to seek her out since she's now alone, you me as always looking to find friendly companions to partner with and offers an abundance of shields and bus. She loves taking naps in snacking on fish. But in the end, she never stops looking for her partner is fluffy. Little cat is mainly meant to be used as a traditional enchanted support character that can buff allies assist lane partners when it comes to sane healed offering help. Anyway, she can her attaching ability is meant as a way to make her a hero more accessible to new characters. So it's. Interesting enough that this cat. Stop cat. June. I have a real life can't making noise because somebody's hiding in a door and doesn't want to. I. Yeah. Known as the baby boom. Kitten is certainly playful. Well, the fun you get recording us live. So apparently, there's a couple of Bility's, and including Bob in black which finds her next attack against the champion, restoring Mana and granting her a shield that will block a set amount of damage. It will follow you me until it's broken down. And we'll also extend to any attached ally. And. Let's see. Yumi is slated to join league of legends on may fourteenth twenty nineteen and. Finest of. Funny. It's like as soon as this champion came out. It's an obvious support champion enough. First thing the first thing that I found on the forms in communication boards was connive play. You me as a junk ler. No, it's a support. Can I play you Yumi toppling? No support champ needs a champion will figure out a way. I'll maybe it's might change this up on. Okay. So this is what the legends players have been doing since time immemorial, which basically means every single. Character that comes out can be played to varying degrees in varying roles. Factors lunch champion that came out of the support champion. You guys probably know what I'm talking about. If you're familiar with legal legends it came out, and they're all like, you're just going to be great support champion. You're going to go into support news can be great. And it's not really that hard to play. Guess we're at went jungle and toppling, and then it found but did better don't go in any said shoot. Did. We just make jungle character on accident. 'cause it's actually doing better juggling than it is supporting in guys stop playing the champion in rose is not supposed to be in sooner just going to be lacking you into lane saying, you're playing support champion. You're gonna be stuck bottling until fifteen minutes or expired, then you can roam around another lays out it's going to be entertaining for sure. So if you guys are interested in new champion, be should take a look at you me and stay tuned. She'll be coming out mid may. And finally last news we have for today's the gaming article coming to us from exert. Oh, call duty twenty nineteen everything we know so far modern warfare for leaks in rumors. So call duty fans if you're one of them are eagerly anticipating the official announcement about next year's title, which is reportedly set to be call of duty modern warfare for the the modern warfare. Part of the color duty franchise is extremely popular dating back to release of the first one in two thousand seven however their head and banner released in a series since twenty eleven so here's everything we know about the next installment of college duty, including whether or not the modern warfare franchise will be making a return. So appears as if that is the case modern warfare for should be coming back. They say it's rooted in the franchise important history, prompting speculation while plenty of reports have already suggested that the next modern warfare game would be. Coming this year of few folks, have seemingly let the cat out of the Baig get millionaire us if you didn't get that joke. Oh back like, two minutes. I up Robert Bolling, formerly of Infinity ward told one fan to invest in Brown pants after they said, they would will soil themselves. If the next game was to be modern warfare for then less than a day later. Tennessee titans quarterback Marcus mariota told streamer Nick Merck's that when he played the new one at the private test event. It was like the old modern warfare referring to continuity for. So when will call duty twenty nineteen be released. We don't have an official announcement about when net will be, but it would be pretty hard to have a release date. However with being duty we can expect a game to be released before the holiday period. Traditionally we have been able to expect a new title to be released or on the start of November. However trae arc broke bent mold with blackouts four by releasing it on Tober twelfth. The only main entry in the series. Released in November. So in other important question will have a single player mode. Yes. And that is not a rumor, but confirmed by activists themselves while call duty blackout for became the first installment to not feature a campaign story modern warfare four is said to have all the elements back that you would expect including single player campaign, large multiplayer mode and coop experienced what about battle royale since. That's apparently the next question on everybody's mind. It has been previously leaked at a next. Call of duty title would not feature a battle royale extension. Similar to how they added blackout to black up four now while that information should have been taken with a mountain of salt. That was all unconfirmed in from a pretty much recognizable source, it appears as if that will be the case, and there won't be a modern warfare themed battle royale dropping with your purchase of the game. And then finally will modern warfare two and three be remastered. Well, same leaker also noted that the game would come with the campaigns of modern wharf. Two and three both remastered. However, there would be no multi player element fans have been waiting for those remastered since while I hinted back in twenty eighteen with finally be at least at least in some capacity alongside modern warfare four well remains to be seen in. That's all we know for now you guys looking forward to it you excited about it. What would you like to see in the next modern warfare? Let us know down in the comments section down below. And with that that wraps up this episode of the latest intact news, thanks for tuning in guys north besides every weekday while seen as how the Saturday special. You guys got lucky leaves intact. News can be found on every major platform including apple podcasts. Spotify Google podcasts. Youtube Stitcher, overcast and Facebook watch. If you enjoyed this episode. Let's no by clicking net lake button down below and by leaving a comment. Also double check that you are subscribed. So that you don't miss out on the next episode. I'm your host tail American remember for in tech gadgets in gimme news, visit techniques. Gadget that Ned pretty much. Keeping awesome. Guys knows you on the flip side.

Microsoft Yumi apple Arizona Milwaukee Cox communications Wisconsin Intuit Xerox Lake Michigan YouTube Spotify Facebook America Yambol Taiwan
Frances Online Illicit Content Law Ruled Unconstitutional  DTH

Daily Tech News Show

05:21 min | 5 months ago

Frances Online Illicit Content Law Ruled Unconstitutional DTH

"The. These are the daily tech headlines for Friday. June, one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty, two thousand Richard Lena. Francis Constitutional Council deemed a law governing elicit content online as unconstitutional. The law said that elicit content which would be any contact considered as an offense or crime in the offline world must be removed from online platforms within twenty four hours of being flagged with penalties incurred for each failure to do so. The court ruled that the time window would make it difficult for platforms to roll on illicit content, which could see platform censoring content to quickly infringing on freedom of speech. Germany's parliament meanwhile passed an amendment to its network. Enforcement, act, that governs hate speech online to now require online platforms to report certain types of criminal content to the Federal Criminal Police. Office platforms will be required to report content that indicates the fulfilment of criminal intent, or that will have a lasting impact on the freedom of expression by other users on the platform, the law originally passed in two thousand seventeen and choirs online platforms to remove hate speech within set timelines. Facebook took down ads run by US president trump's reelection campaign for breaching its policies on hate. The ads featuring an upside down triangle, which was used by Nazi Germany to classify political prisoners in concentration camps in a statement to CNN facebook, said remove these posts and ads for violating our policy against organized hate. Our policy prohibits using banned hate groups symbol to identify political prisoners without the context that condemns or discusses the symbol. Researchers at awake security, speaking to Reuters reports that a series of chrome extensions available through the chrome web store were part of a spyware campaign to obtain browser histories and gain access credentials to internal on business tools awake estimates, these extensions were downloaded thirty two million times ever mostly positioned as tools to either convert files or warn of questionable websites who was alerted by awake last month, and said it removed more than seventy militias. Add Ons. It's unclear who organized the campaign. China search giant by has left the partnership on ai a US led effort to solve ethical challenges raised by artificial intelligence by do said to the cost of membership and recent financial pressures for the move, and in a statement, said that it shares the vision of the partnership on Ai, and is committed to promoting the development of technologies where in discussions about renewing our membership and remain open to other opportunities to collaborate with industry appears on advancing. The Partnership Ave declined to say what by actual cost for membership had been. Google's in in-house incubator called area one twenty launched a new project called keen to help us track their interest. It's sort of like Google alerts. Service meets Pinterest lets users monitor the web for specific content than services result using both machine, learning and human collaboration. Keen is available both on the web. android at starts by entering topic you want to research then you get a pin. Board of Images Lincoln to content from Google that's supposed to match your interests. Get, made it Super Linter, multi-language co, checking tool available to all users the to what was originally developed by the services, devops engineering team for internal use, and is out of get hubs. Rules for automating certain development workflows, the super linter validates code by preventing it from being. Made repositories and supports a variety of popular languages like. Java script. Go XML and Yambol. Anytime a user open to pull requests. The superliner will look for airs and alert by API call when any are found, although developers will have to make the corrections themselves. In a blog post, the Swedish crowd sourced mapping street imagery startup map Larry announced its acquisition by facebook. The team will join facebook's existing open mapping efforts and says it will stay committed to open street map, continuing to provide a global platform for imagery map data, improving all maps, becoming also updated its license, which previously provided a license to use its imagery for noncommercial purposes to now include commercial uses as well. In an interview with tech crew about the hey, email APP status in the Iowa's APP store apple's Senior Vice President of Marketing Phil Schiller, said the company is not considering any changes to its APP store policies. He noted that Hayes Mac os APP was rejected for the same reason. Apple is rejecting. To Hayes. And reiterated that the APP should not have been initially proved first-place. chiller suggested Hayes. Developer base camp could choose to either offer different pricing on the. Web purchases of the APP or offer a free version of the APP with additional paid functionality. And finally Sony released a software update to the Igbo that will now allow the robot dog to meet users when they come home. Users assign and meeting place for the iboh with the vocal command. This is where you should go with the ibew lowering its head for virtual sniff to show. The location is stored whenever a user goes to that assigned place, and says I'm home. The AIBA will come up to greet the arrival over time. The AIBA will learn a user's typical schedule. And where did the spot degreed its owner? Remember from our discussion of the news of the day subscribed to take new show at tech new show dot com. You can find show. That's there and links to all these headlines. That was well. Thanks for listening talk to you next time and all of us at midtech headlines Remember. Have a super sparkly day.

Facebook Google Germany apple US AIBA Hayes Francis Constitutional Council Richard Lena Ai Yambol Federal Criminal Police Reuters CNN ibew China Pinterest
France's Online Illicit Content Law Ruled Unconstitutional - DTH

Daily Tech Headlines

05:31 min | 5 months ago

France's Online Illicit Content Law Ruled Unconstitutional - DTH

"Hey, if daily tech headlines Helps. You have a super sparkly day. You could support the show directly. Just Click on the Lincoln the show, description and thanks for the support. These are the daily tech headlines for Friday. June nineteen twenty twenty average drop Alina. Francis. Constitutional Council deemed a law governing elicit content online as unconstitutional. The law said that elicit content which would be any content considered as an offence or a crime in the offline world must be removed from online platforms within twenty four hours of being flagged with penalties incurred for each failure to do so. The court ruled that the time window would make it difficult for platforms to rule on illicit content which could see platform censoring content to quickly infringing on freedom of speech. Germany's parliament meanwhile passed an amendment to its network. Enforcement Act that governs hate speech online to now require online platforms to report certain types of criminal content to the Federal Criminal Police Office platforms will be required to report content that indicates the fulfillment of criminal intent, or that will have a lasting impact on the freedom of expression by other users on the platform. Originally passed in two thousand seventeen and choirs, online platforms to remove hate speech within set timelines. Facebook took down address by US president trump's reelection campaign for breaching its policies on hate. The ads featuring upside down triangle was used by Germany to classify political prisoners in concentration camps in a statement to CNN facebook, said remove these posts and ads for violating our policy against or hate. Our policy prohibits using a band hate group symbol to identify political prisoners without the context that condemns or discusses the symbol. Researchers at wake security speaking to Reuters. report that a series of chrome extensions available through the chrome web store part of spyware campaign to obtain browser histories and gain access credentials to internal business tools awake estimates. These extensions were downloaded thirty two million times. Positioned as tools to either convert files or worn of questionable websites. who was alerted awake last month and said it removed more than seventy militias add-ons. It's unclear who organized the campaign. China search giant by do as left the partnership on Ai, a US led effort to solve ethical challenges raised by artificial intelligence by do said to the cost of membership and recent financial pressures for the move, and in a statement, said that it shares the vision of the partnership on Ai and is committed to promoting the ethical development of technologies where in discussions about renewing our membership and remain open to other opportunities to collaborate with industry peers on advancing gay, i. The partnership declined to say what by actual costs for membership had been. Google's in house incubator called area one twenty launched a new project called keen to help track their interests. It's sort of like Google, alerts service meets Pinterest, and lets users monitor the web for specific content than services result using both machine, learning and human collaboration keen is available both on the web and android at starts by you entering a topic you research, then you get a pin board of images linking to contact from Google, that's supposed to match your interest. Get a made it super linear multi-language code checking tool available to all users. The tool was originally developed by the get hub services devops engineering team for internal use and is built out of get hubs action tools for automating certain development workflows. The super linter validates code by preventing it from being appointed two main repositories and supports variety of popular languages like Python Javascript goes XML and Yambol. Anytime, a US Open to pull requests. The superliner will look for airs and alert by API. Call when any are found, although developers will have to make the corrections themselves. In a blog post, the Swedish crowd source mapping at St Imagery Startup Map Larry announced its acquisition by facebook team will join facebook's getting open mapping efforts and says it will stay committed to open street map, continuing to provide a global platform for imagery map data and improving all maps. The. Company also updated its license previously provided a license to use its imagery for noncommercial purposes to now include commercial uses well. In an interview with tech crunch about the hey, email app status and the Iowa's APP store apple senior, Vice President of Marketing Phil Schiller said the company is not considering any changes to its APPS policies. He noted that Hayes Mac os APP was rejected for the same reason. Apple is rejecting updates to Hayes. IOS APP and reiterated that the APP should not have been initially proved in the first place. Schiller suggested Hayes. Developer base camp could choose to either offer different pricing on the Iowa's and web purchases of the APP or offer a free version of the APP with additional paid functionality. And finally Sony released a software update to the bow that will now allow the robot dog to meet users when they come home, users assign a meeting place for the show with the Vo Command. This is where you should go with the ibew lowering its head for virtual sniff to show. The location is stored whenever a user goes to that assigned place and says I'm home. The will come up to greet the arrival over time. The AIBA will learn users typical schedule and the spot to greet its owner. Remember from our discussion of the Tech News of the day. Subscribe Tek new show at the new show dot com. You can buy us there and links to all these lines well. Thanks for listening, we'll talk to you next time and from all of us here at tech headlines Remember. Have a super sport delete day.

US Facebook Google Germany Phil Schiller Iowa Hayes apple Tech News Constitutional Council Ai Yambol AIBA Federal Criminal Police Office Francis St Imagery ibew CNN China
The state of CSS in 2019

The Changelog

1:16:52 hr | 1 year ago

The state of CSS in 2019

"Being with teams long is provided by fastly. Learn more at facet com. We move fast and fix things here change law because a roll bar, check them out at robot, I calm and were hosted on Lynn owed cloud servers, had dot com slash change. Log this episode is brought to you by Lynn owed our cloud server of choice. It is so easy star winnowed servers started just five bucks a month. We host change log on Linda cloud servers, and we love it will get great twenty four seven. Support Zeus like powers with native s dis a super fast, forty gigabit per second network, and incredibly fast EP is for processing, and we trust little because they keep a fast, they keep it simple. Check them out at Lynda dot com slash change. Log. All right. We'll come back for one. This is the teams log a podcast, featuring the hackers leaders and innovators of software development at dacoven editor in chief fear change. Log on today's show. We're doing by saucer grief to discuss the state of CSS survey and the results CSS is evolving faster than ever. And coming off the heels of their annual state of Java script survey they decided to take on the world styles, and selectors to help identify the latest patterns and trends in CSS. We talked to the history and the motivations of the survey, the methodologies of their data collection. The toiling involve to build and run this survey in, of course, we dig deep into the survey results and talk to the insights, found most interesting. Sasha. We're here to talk about the state of CSS survey results. But before this survey was the state of j s survey, which has been going on for a little while now. And it seems like you're enjoying that or at least getting benefits from that, and the community. So you're expanding to see us now. Why don't you help us understand the history of these surveys, why you started doing them? And what's going on? Sure. So having like a lot of people, especially a couple years back. I was a bit confused about the JavaScript world. There was a lot of things going on react, angular Reebok's, relay flocks, whatever. And so the main reason why I started these surveys was to help myself figure things out and especially know what to focus on next what to learn next because I mean, when you read hacker news or whatever it seems like there's a new thing coming out every week and everybody's learning all these things. All the time. But the reality is it takes weeks months to two or more to get good at something like react or angular. So you have to be careful about what you pick in what you invest your time on. And so that was really the, the main reason, like just figure it out. And I decided to do it as a survey because I thought if I'm in that position and, you know, I can spend a lot of time on line. I tried to keep up. So if I'm confused, I better auto people who don't have as much freedom, as I do who are probably even more confused, and they could use the help, and they could use the data, especially, so that was kind of the, the reason for the first state of divaesque ripped survey like back in twenty sixteen. And so last year, twenty eighteen we had the furred edition, and now this year, twenty nine thirteen. We're gonna have another serve state jaaz, but before that we are having the first ever stay off CSS. So you've ever done surveys before because as you learned throughout this process. I'm sure if you haven't done them before is that is very hard to, to do a survey. Well, and I'm sure it's been a learning process, but before that have done surveys in your work, or in your, your experience, previously, not really at least not on that scale like evidently, on some like release small-scale data collection. You know, asking people, let's, I don't know book readers or whatever for feedback. So those are kinda like surveys in the way, but nothing where I would really analyze that they publish the results, and so on. So that was actually a brand new for me. Yeah. So one of the things that's happened is that there's been some criticism and even some criticism from us here. I on the chain network on Jay party about the methodology of the collection really around the transparency of the data and trying to get Representative demographic, so you can go back and listen to jazz party, episode fifty four where we discuss these things, and Sasha she you heard that show. And then you wrote a nice post on free code camp all about who took the state of j s twenty eighteen survey maybe over review that scenario from your perspective. And I hope that our criticism was constructive and not. We weren't trying to take shots at you just trying to talk about the result warm. The reasons why I think we thought it was worth talking about is because of the way that you do these surveys is so high quality in, in my eyes, at least that they seem like, because the state of j s and because you, you put up such a polished result that it comes with authority. And so. There's you know, because of that comes some responsibility. And so that's why we thought it was worth talking about is that this is not a survey that has put on by, you know, professional survey takers put on by some unity members. Yes. So just tell us about that post. He wrote will put in the show notes, but from your side house, the that kind of criticism happened. Yeah. So I think the, the criticism in that podcast love. It was very valid so for meters like two kinds of criticism, there's one about the lack of transparency, not knowing where did they that from our methodology, and that's hundred percent valid, and I'm going to come back to it. But then the criticism that's always can getting on my nerve is when people look at the results, and he doesn't match their preconceived notion of what it should be. And they're like, oh, while reacted really well in the survey. So the two Remo must be biased towards react or newbie. Oh, these guys used react to build a site. So how could they not be biased? And. That's cana- annoying, because we really do our best not to introduce any bias and beyond that, it's, you know, it's not something that we can this really control. Like if somebody is like, well, dealing reason why let's say amber did poorly is because amber student take the survey, while it's not like we were turning away ember developers, right? We always do our best to get as many people as we can to take the surveys. And I if it doesn't reach such research community, where really limited in what we can do, because we don't have a badge it or we don't have advertising or anything like that. So it's just uh a begging people to take the survey. We'll talk about that, then let's dive into sort of the processes that you use to attract the community that is supposed to represent. How do you would are some of the ways that you do that you do blah, pose podcast appearance of obviously you're doing one here today? What are some of the ways, yes? So the launch forest survey basically. We rely on the community. We, we get in touch with people who are influential, like west boss, or Peter Guber, who ran STA the j s weekly newsletter. Chris Kyler from CSS tricks, so people like that who have a, a wide audience, which, obviously, also introduces there its own settled by us because to take a practical example, west Vaas. He's done courses on react among other things. So maybe his audience a bit biased doors react, so, and so that's a fair criticism in the way. But it's just a about the fact that, well what else can we do? Yeah. It's a hard problem to solve a in a in a really this is way like we can only do our best basically. But yeah, it's all the writhing posts, one thing, I really tried to do is like reused the byproducts of render surveys. So, for example, a last year, I wrote a post about how to evaluate. Javascript library and can tying it in with the questions that we asked in the survey to try and the explain well, both give people this like system for at a leading a library and also explain the questions that are in the survey. Do you ever reach out directly to framework authors and library authors? Let them know, for example, like, if the if the angular community feels underrepresented in the demographics, who took the survey and therefore believed that angular is underrepresented because of that seems like it would be beneficial for them from the leadership perspective for to know. Hey here comes to state of j s for this year. You know, we know all the frameworks will be their angular is going to be there. We want to get this out to our community so that angular is well represented in the demographics is that something you've done to talk to library authors, framework teams. They have vested interest in, in helping spread the word. Yeah. That's not something. At Thon, first of all, it's not always that easy to know who is like, in charge of angler, or, you know, or react, like there's people who are very visible line, but they might not be the actual people who like know about these things, maybe that would introduce some bias because if for whatever reason, you know, if I contact angler our react and Burr, but not, you know, view, let's say that's already a huge bias against view. You'd have to do. All of them, you'd have to look at your actual survey and haven't. Okay, here's my six frameworks that are on questions. I'm sure that may be an other question. And so we're gonna we're gonna contact all six and, and go from there, but nothing that I would necessarily solve the problem. But it seems like there's underrepresentation in certain niches, then it could be up to the advocates or the devils in that niche to just. At least get the word out that the survey exists, nowadays are gaming it and stuff. You've got a whole nother problem, right? Yeah. And also, when you say under represent-. Station is like is tricky because compared to what it's not like there's a, a population count for angular developers. So the best we can do is compare our results to the stack overflow, the upper survey results, and so far, they've been pretty similar like utter aren't like major differences. So that can a tells us that we're into right direction. But yet Stephanie, a tricky problem, so to circle back to like the transparency, and mythology thing, once I started doing last year in big Bart tanks to your, your podcast on your can the feedback that I got there is showing the sources of how the people find the survey, which websites was at Twitter was it CS his tricks or Jay's, we Lear or whatever I can use? And that's a mix of what people self report and also a week, we cannot use different tags. We, if it's on says tricks, the links will be, you know. State of CSS slash question. Mark source, whatever. So we really try at least this will really try to keep the, the different sources distinct and make it easier to track them yet. That's excellent. And you have the data. Downloadable now in this in this new one right there at the top, and a demographic section, I think, specifically in the state of CSS twenty nine which we are looking at kind of a pre release, which is maybe ninety eight percent done by the time. The show goes out audience you can go out to the website and check out the full results. But right, there, you have the breakdown of sources, which is really awesome, as well as everything's downloadable. That was another one of our the criticism think Kevin said, on jazz party was if we can have the data, maybe we could, you know, look at it, and the community could could do those things. And so I mean it shows that you this is a good faith effort. Absolutely. And we appreciate that, that you are adjusting and adapting and saying, well, let's, let's make this better. And so. That means the surveys will get better every year. And that's that's what were ro role after because they're so valuable. Yeah. And I think you know, when, when I we're gonna project that I'm always doing my best, so. But the thing is my best dozen you know, reach the same level in different areas. So like my background is more as a designer. So doing my best on that level. Hopefully it gets something that looks pretty professional and has a lot of credibility on that front. But then my best all no, no more like survey. Mythology front might not be as good because I'm still learning. So the end result is like can a limited by what I and Rafael, my, my boner can do, so hopefully will improve like everywhere as we go. But definitely the first couple editions are can have that Mark off our strengths and weaknesses. I and as we go, hopefully it's gets more rounded out. What do you think the magic number? There is or a range of numbers that can represent a community's opinion. So if you are speaking of JavaScript, very large sea, assess, I would potentially say, even more larger because so many people touch it I could be wrong. But, you know what are the numbers of people giving their feedback giving their, their survey results? So to speak to curb this bias or even create this awareness of what is and is not popular and a community. Yeah, that's a good question. It's really tough to answer. So for me, you know, thought about that a lot after especially last year where a lot of the criticisms 'cause the survey of bigger. So I got more criticism, which has fair. And so my philosophy is kinda it's not really the number or whatever that matters is just people knowing what the data says onwards from. So, you know it if you survey, you know, twenty people that's fine as long as you say. That it was twenty people in if it's two hundred thousand that's fine too. And if it saw the twenty thousand but they come from such threats sources which might introduce its own bias. It's fine as long as you disclosed that so that's really what we're trying to do. And for example, for our state of CSS since a lot of our respondents are coming from having done the still Jay survey. I'm sure it will be a, a bias towards things like you know, CSS j s or whatever, but I think that's fine because people can know that and see that, and also then used the data, you know, critically, like, for example, maybe the proportion of respondents who use Sierra's NJS libraries will be higher butts, their opinion of these libraries will still be Representative of the larger community. So it's really like, you know, I think in our daily life when we see numbers like. Surveys. We're can not thought how to analyze them is gonna oh, this candidate has like Trump has forty percent chance of winning or something July. Whoa, okay. That's tiny it's never going to happen. And then he wins on you like welded, the polls were wrong because he they the pulse at forty percent and he still won. But obviously, that's not how Paul's work. And I think there's gonna an effort on the part of the people reading the data as well to Kenna see the raw they don't admit her own opinion, rather than just you want something like can appre baked for him. I want I one hundred percent agree with you. Obviously, we want more diversity, we want more numbers like the more people. The more Representative it is a sample of twenty people. Even statistically is not enough to come up with up with any sort of conclusions. But the at the end of the day like you said, Sasha if the data is out there and you and you. Provide the context like this source, you know, right now, I'm looking at the result in twenty three percent of the people who participated in the state of CSS heard about it because of the Email, I assume that's the state of j s mailing list is at that Email. It's referring to. Yeah. So they're coming from that place, and it's up to us as the consumer of this of these results to come to our own conclusions based on not just who look. This one's number one, and then walk away a very shallow way to live life. Right. That's not how it works. You get you have to do your own analysis. And as long as the date is there and there's a good faith effort, and it's getting better over time versus getting worse. Or there's no effort put in to get more respondents or more types of respondents than that's a problem. But it's up to the reader to trooper the results and you can't just take the top five and say, here's the winner, because I read it on a website that somebody did on that not I would say, if, if you're that person out there listening right now who has, you know. You know, had said some concerns, I suppose about this or other surveys, and given the fact that twenty two point nine percent of the people who found out about this survey learned about it through Email. Hey, maybe goes on for the Email that way you can contribute to, you know, it's information rather than being upset by the results, I would also say that Sasha, it seems to me that surveys, while may indicate positions of truth are not exactly full truth, there's sort of indicators, and I would even rewind back to your regional reason for doing it, which was to inform your own personal desires for the job scope community and, you know, essentially trudging your path. So it was a source of information, not a source of like this is the way it was more like, here's some data to make the next career decision. You might make, for example, your, your meter GS book, for example, or folio things are doing there. There or whatever you need more information, more data. And I think that this is a way to get people more data to make accurate and more visable choices rather than, you know, not having data data driven. Yeah. It's one more data points, which you, can you know take into account or not, it's, it's up to you now. I think it's fair to say that because I called it, the state op JavaScript Kenna staking a claim in a way, this is what it's like, and I have the ultimate truth is, you know, you have to take it more as a marketing thing in a way. Like I thought it was a good name. I really communicated well was trying to do. I'm not trying to say, like I have the only truth about JavaScript or CSS or whatever. So you have to take a grain of salt. There's also, and I completely agree with that. It is a great name. And I said, this on jazz party. I'll say it again because I'm back now on the twentieth eighteen sage AS the websites. Just really well done on shares. It sounds good. But then you have the awards at the end. I think maybe this is the part that, you know, maybe tips people over is like, okay. Here's the, the highest satisfaction library. Here's the most mentioned thing. And of course, people wanna see their favorite library, or framework, you know, get that award him. And, and so it's going to bring out the feels, I think it did some of that is, you know, why is why is it just and it's not graph Q, or whatever the those feels happened to be. So I love the idea of the awards. But I wonder if, if that particular section of the results, which I see you're doing, again, here for CSS in two thousand nineteen maybe drove some of the any sort of the non constructive criticism that was out there. Yeah. Maybe but, you know, I think so I'm a big meteor jazz user, and meteor gets really bad ratings every year house, I make you feel feel bad. But, you know is like if I can take it utters can probably as well. There you go. Oh, I like that. This is brought to you by go. Seedy with native integrations for Cooper Nettie us and help chart, too quickly. It started go seedy is an easy choice for cloudy of teams with go CD running on Kuban at easy to find your Bill workflow and go CD provision in skill build for structure on the fly for you. Go sit installs as Cooper, Netease native application, which allows for ease of operations easily upgraded maintain go seizing home scale, you're building for structure, lastingly with a new elastic agent, but uses Kobe's conventions, that unethically scale, go see the agents go, CD also has first class integration with Docker registries easily compose track in visualize deployments on Kuban Eddie's. Learn mortga started at go, CD dot org slash Cooper, Netease again, go, CD dot org slash Cooper, Netease. Let's talk about how you go about doing these, these results because it's a lot of work, and we wanna even hear about the process of getting it into this awesome form. First of all, she probably mentioned that your aren't the only person doing this wanna plush out the team for us, so we understand who's behind this the surveys and the website and the charts. And everything. Sure. Yeah. So I mean, I think about I either decided that a lot that's because I take lot the decisions, but actually behind the scenes, I'm held by Rafael beneath who is finally enough. So I live in ban, and I'm French, and I'm Jay best developer, and he also lives in Japan. He's also French, also, Jess developer. And he we met here at a tech event, and we really hit it off because we were both interested in the same things, and he has charting library for. React called Nivo, and I've eel jaaz, which is really cool. It powers all of our charts. It's really amazing. It has so many charge types, it's really flexible. You can customize it in tons of different ways. So he was kind of the perfect person for to help me with that project, especially because he's also pretty good with data processing. So you asked me about the data processing stack we collect the data with type form. So it's like a hosted form service, which is pretty good like cana- struggles with our surveys because they are so long and they have so many questions, you know, one day, we would really like to build our own survey Froment so that we can relieve tailor it and, and work on the performance aspect, and so on, but for now we're happy with type form. So once we have the old that the in Raphael, set up like a. Elastic search process database Fank which downloads all from five four and puts it in search where resists aggregate sets normalize it and that generates Yarmuth fouls aesthetic Yano fouls, which go into Gadsby. We use Gadsby Grefe. Q L querying to use those Yarmuth fouls as source and inject data into the react site that serves as the front end. So we found your Yamil files yesterday as we are poking around the open source code, because Adams like how do they even build out a site like this in Gatsby, and I was just like, well, I'm sure there's some data source somewhere, maybe pulling from a back end that just serves up Jason up. Nope, here's the Amil files right down in there. And we started discussing just briefly at him you and I dislike YM oil in the circumstance that because that's what type porn gives. You is that a format that you'd prefer? I mentioned well, at least you get put comments in Yambol, even though it is auto generated whereas Jason as a as a data file. You know you can't put comments in it. That was like a choice of yours. And I was just like tight. Former spit out or the data processing stuff, so it's that out. No, I much prefer. Yambol verbose tere's, no curly brackets everywhere. There's no comas to deal with no. Yeah. Jason for that can of us, if it's like a dodge, AS file can a- permissive. That's fine. But, like Jason files are always horrible to deal with in my opinion, because the syntax is so strict so yeah Yemen was really convenient is easy to understand. It's easy to edit even by hand. Yeah, I'm always really cool. So is the gas be is to, I run at gas or did you used it for other websites curious, your, your thoughts on gas bureau quit before we dive into the the actual results here? Yeah. No. I've used guys before while on, I think before version one yet definitely when he was in Bada too. I don't remember what the first side I built with was maybe the first year of Saito jazz. But since then I kinda use it for everything I do. So as in the side, also have my own data's crypt, framework, cold, Volkan, J, s which is based on meteor. So it's not a static site. Generators like a real like rail Slyke framework for everything else, I do. That's more of a static side use Gadsby so have used it for three state of the state of CSS. Use it for my own like little homepage, I use it for a blog that I'm doing for my work use it. Yeah. For a bunch of stuff, I think, state of jazz and see us as though that's the most complex like the stack that I'm dealing with currently there's definitely a lot going on about. Gabby is really cool. Like I really like it. It's definitely not super easy. Is it's more of a power user thing? I think like while the Gatsby guys won't get mad at me to death. 'cause they're really cool guys. But I really shines. Let's say when you have to agree, lots of the sources and you one that really but that flexibility basically. Yeah, that's utter said, except generators, don't really provide yet it's funny, when we had Jason link store f- on the show to talk about Gatsby. We were assuming because it pitches a self as the fastest static site, general end, they don't like the terms that actually generate but we'll just use it for now. And we thought that men like it was like the fastest build times. And I was like, well, that's kinda crazy because what's the go on? I just Hugo, Hugo builds like super fast. And so I thought it was like developer friendly in that regard like it's going to build fascinating super easy to use, and he's like, no, no. The point is like the the results the output. The actual website at the end is optimized to be the most performance of facets like all the best practices on the results. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the it's the simplest fastest most. L profoundly to us because they're working on all that. But it's flexible and the results are awesome. And so that's why the, you know, it's worth it. Yeah. For sure. I does a lot for you behind the scenes. There's Donald plug ins is really really powerful. And what's cool is once you do master, it let you can do simple things with it like my own homepage, actually up removed the, the JavaScript from it. So it's all technically rendered Anders. No. Like there's no JavaScript on the client, basically. So you can even do that. So, of course, you don't get the performance aspect. But if you just want something that's hundred percent static gas. We can do that, too. Is it still loading curious about analytics, you doing like server side? Analytics? Or do you still Loda job script file for like tracking? I don't know. I might not have quit because it's just you know my my own homepage. So while were getting meta before getting into the results one last. Aspect that we find interesting and I think you'll find it interesting as well listeners is that there's actually a new thing this year, which is brand new, the, the T shirt. So we gotta talk about the t shirt before we get into the results, a S T shirt support the survey and look good in the processes of very cool. CSS logo shirt, Sasha, assume. That's you on the website. They're wearing it. Tell us about this idea what you're doing with it, and what you hope people do which I assume is by it. But I'll let you speak to that. Yeah. Well, I'm a big believer that any project needs to be like, sustainable. So even though, like setup jazz it's not something I'm necessarily doing to get rich or anything like that. I do wanna always experiments on ways to monetize it as long as it's not like intrusive or in a I'm never gonna put ads that track, Hugh or for unrelated products or anything like that. But if we can find partners or sponsors, that also provide value by giving you access to resources or whatever that's something we've done in the past, and now this year, I had to do a t shirt. So actually added the t shirt for St. L J 's last year as well. But I didn't partnership with the dodge AS conference in Paris, where I presented the results. So it was only available to people there, but the these relied the shirt, so this year, I decided to try again, this time, make it bailable to everybody and see, you know, if it turns out that that's viable way to monetize the survey that would be awesome. Because. Innings, we can remain in completely in abandoned assured is something that you can keep selling as time goes by is not a one time thing and then also what I want to do is make sure that actually teaches people something so you listeners can go check it out on the survey page by basically, has our survey logo, which itself is built with CSS and the shirt has details that tell you the properties that were used to build the logo that's on the shirt. What's cool about this is not really self branded, even it's, it's on the line, like you said, more educational and well designed rather than simply saying, hey, stay the CSS survey in. It's more dislike CSS agnostic in, in general, in or see it more CSS focus on. Survey, offic surveys, not part of the show is not a survey shirt is nobody wants to wear shirt survey. So you are smart enough to make an about CSS, right? Which is timeless interesting in very well designed as you'd expect from the stuff you put him Sasha. The websites were always designing this is this is no exception. So the shared his very, very easy on the eyes. So, yeah, definitely. Let us know how that the results go with t shirt listeners out there. If you, if you like these surveys, if you get benefit out of them. And if you wanna cool t- definitely support this effort by getting out there and buying the CFS. So if this goes wells, this'll be something that will be a J S T shirt down the road. Maybe it'll be like specific things if you do different surveys, you might do a t shirt per surveys at the idea. Yeah. Yeah. That would be awesome. So I don't know if it would be the same every year or his, you know, coming up with a new design every year is gonna still work, even if it's once per year, usually, we were already. Short on time in already trying to wrap everything up. So I'll know. But we'll see. Definitely one per survey would would be cool. So I'm curious, you seem to have this touchy feely way about approaching the monetization of it. So you're, you're concerned or you want it to be sustainable, but you wanna approach the month physician of it in a way that respects obviously the community. What's your outlook on this friendly, you know, I don't know how much you can share about the financial behind things. But just curious how how sustainable it has been how much money you've had to put in your personal from your personal pocket, and has it simply been a labor of love. Or has it been a labor labor of love in some profit? So whether to make some profit, like I don't remember the exact figures, but at least a couple of thousand dollars last year may be no four five thousand and that comes mostly from sponsorships and then affiliate links, so. So, you know, we, we have affiliate links to courses like west bosses horses or a couple of others while it's not even a question of like ethics or anything is just having most advertising doesn't work online. And Yuli reason can work is when it provides actual value to the customer, or user, or reader, or whatever if it's just unrelated or I think so. I think what happens is the more the worst the ad the more you have to add tracking, and, you know, unwanted, thanks to Cana makeup for the ad, not adding value. And so on the other hand, if the ad itself can have value. You don't need oldest extra tracking stuff or unethical stuff. I think you'd probably want to be more in the line of partnerships where there's a mutual benefit, the folks that, were that would be are willing to partner with you on the state of this survey, or the state of CSS survey, you know, you want people who care about that community in one to. Help it thrive and care that this survey exists, and therefore it makes sense for them to be apart with you in, in sustaining it for one, but then they also get the representation of caring about the computer community, and that's part of what your design with illustrators. How do they care? You know how they relevant why should you care about X brand or whatever? Yeah. I think, you know, you get a very small amount of like goodwill from the committee and you don't wanna waste it on, you know, making a bad impression with, you know, just random Google ads or like shady business practices, on, especially if, if you're in it fought for the long run, which we are so far as really even if we just don't know that is that all we skip a year. It's fine. 'cause our main goal is just getting the, the survey out. They're getting good data and Kenna establishing it as a brand. Maybe also kind of the designer in me speaking, like everything the brand is the most important and the prophets are cana- secondary after that. So one other idea that you could do, maybe, there's just generating more work, so it's not great. But what I think of is now that you have state of CSS and j s and you have this process down, like you said, you're you may develop your own front end every year, you get a little bit better at it is, you could go to specific organizations have vested interests in specific communities, that don't have surveys, so you can have state of rust twenty twenty and is not that there's advertisers, is that maybe Mozilla funds your entity to run the survey for them until it's brought to you by Mozilla, just because Mozilla wants to know what the state of rust is, or maybe the state of Goa. And brought to you by Google is not. They're advertising it just that they're the ones that are funding the effort, and maybe those contracts could be large enough that it actually makes the other ones where you could do without funding for those. That's the new considered or two down the road or just too much work. I think I would love to do that. We both would love to do that. I think practically speaking, a little of value, I think we bring to, to things like the ability to get the data and know what to do with it, and then publicize it. And if you come into a community where you don't have any ties or any expertise like Russ. I don't know anything about rust. I'm not sure I would be able to replicate that and then on the other hand, if I leave it all up to Mozilla to do that, then I'm not sure how much value we provide. We're kinda like you know regular contractors. At this point, we just make some react code and I don't know. I think we have to explore exactly where we come in and they're what terms and we'll, especially since you're putting in your own personal thoughts conclusions etcetera. Yeah. A lot of this isn't simply just the data back. It's it some insights, so there's some personal flair to it. So to speak, you know, using TGI Fridays terms. So I got one last one last month as Asian idea before we move on. So one thing that I think is new this time around is that there's actually an under the resources section. There is a podcasts question. And so I just wanna point out that the change log, despite not even being specifically about CSS or, or front end is the number three most listened to podcasts right behind syntax and shop talk, which are great shows, so we're in good company. They're sadly jazz party is not on this list. So that means we have some work to do to get the word out. So. My monetization idea. We give you money. And then you put Jess party at number one, and then everybody's happy. I was gonna say, yes, but now that you've talked about it. I can't really. To say, yeah. So outcome fans that the main reason why we have all these outcasts in there is so that people talk about us so so far. It seems it's working right? It's word of mouth, I'll works. We'll never fall for that. This absurd is brought to you by friends at roll bar move fast and fix things like we do here change love. Check them out at robot. I com slash change. Log resolve your ears minutes into public confidence. Catch your ears and your software before uses do. And if you're not using robot, yet, you haven't tried it yet. They wanna give you one hundred dollars donate to open source, the open collective not yet. Do is good Rover dot com slash change. Log sign up in a great role burn to your app and once you do that, though, give you one hundred dollars donate open source. Once again, Rover dot com slash change. Log. Let's look at some of the results of the state of see us twenty nineteen survey. What has come out of it? And maybe talk about the findings what we think about them excetera, the first one that we thought we'd bring up is the, the under features the layout and the interesting thing here. First of all, you have an overview of the usage of layout tools, and this is an interesting lay designed chart. It's kind of like a cell with different almost like diagram, but there's no overlaps and we'll do a hard time explaining it audibly. So definitely check out the results for yourselves. But one thing that interesting, you have an outer circle and an inner circle and the outer circle is like how many people know about a feature and the inner one is how many actually use it? That was very cool way of displaying. And what's, what's interesting? You have grid and flex box. And they're both really big. There's a few other features exclusions, which I personally, never heard of. Writing modes and multi column layout, but grit inflex box are the two big ones, and they're both large outer circles because everybody knows about them. But when it comes down to who's using what flex box is in huge use and the grid is like fifty percent use. That was interesting for you to find out. Yes. So it's what I expected grid is newer, and it's maybe a little bit more complex to, to learn. So make sense that the adoption within the as high as flags box, and like Amari, personal like story at least is that I've been I had been using floats for years, and I hated every moment of it. And then when flex bucks came along, I jumped on it right away, because it saved me from ever having to like do float rice, and then clear, both whatever overflow hidden clear fix all. I'm getting videos just thinking about it meets. But then when grit came along I was. Was more like a one more thing. Now I have to learn it took me a long, while to actually start using it. And now that I'm using it, I'm still not super comfortable, but I really love it and it's actually probably better known flex books for most use cases. So having that chart, reflects that and I really wonder why would have happened that grid head came out, first before flex box. I think grid would have a much larger adoption for sure things the question and since you mentioned floats floats isn't in the list. I'm sure there's people don't they're using floats. Is it just not in a list, because you assume not being user because it's literally not being used by anybody. No. So it's nothing to lose. Because we assume everybody knows it and has used it or it might be still using it. But we really wanted to focus on new features for the survey because otherwise, you know, we're not gonna ask are you using a phone size? Or are you using display block, or there's no real point? To that. So we consider that flows for the same. You know, situation where if you write CSS, having that mine will be true because you might have learned in the last couple years, maybe you haven't used them. But otherwise, it doesn't tell us much to know who is using floats. I think unless I guess you could argue that if there's like a dengue trends, indicating that people are using them less and less. That would be interesting to look like the historic value of like knowing today. I mean obviously, this is twenty nineteen so likely not many are using floats because it's older flex bunks as you mentioned has been around. So even the old hats are probably transitional like you were pretty happy to be dumb floats. And I'm sure anybody learning today's by learning new states of things rather than older states of things. Yeah, it just comes down to having to make choices because otherwise, we had too many questions, which we already had too many on the survey was really long. But yeah, we removed some. Stuff to make some cuts moving onto animations in transforms. This particular stood out to me because of our desire as designers and potentially as users of the web, or interfaces in general, the, the usage of innovations, or, or even subtle or very large animations to provide good feedback, or whatever it might be to enhance his experience to me that seems like a, a highly valued thing as a designer as user, and I was pleasantly surprised to see the transitions transforms and innovations as Jerry mentioned before the outer circle in a circle there on all three these, they're very large. So the kind of three primary ways you can provide a complex, you know, animated or motion based interface. It seems that a lot of people are well aware, and also using them very well which is super cool. Yeah. Definitely. I think it's cool like I think it's. Interesting that there's a small difference between like transitions animated. So it took me a while before I started using emissions for awhile was just doing transition. So just recap transition is, basically, when there's a state change like hovering usually animations can be more complex, you can have key frames. So it's not limited to just two states is more complex, which kinda shows up in the data, but to me like so what I'm looking for in the feeder section is really data bunch Witter's a big bell tie between the both circles. So like we were talking about grid. So, in other words, many people have heard of something, but few are using it, his that means people are probably going to start learning. It's soon. So for me, those are kind of the up and coming technologies or features in this case, or maybe they're like hard to learn. So I feel those are the features worders like. Story behind it when it's really almost overlapping when almost everybody who knows about. Let's say transitions has used them can means that it's like a, a good solid feature. Unders damage interesting stuff to, to say about that. That's interesting. I use a probably going to start learning it because, like in any environment in order to make progress there needs to be healthy feedback loop. And to me, that's why I think, you know, tar credit from part, one part two of the show suggesting how important this Servia and obviously your, your convictions in your -bility to adhere to the commute desires of eliminating bias and expand versity at cetera. And being transparent with data is very informative to provide a feedback loop to the community both to educators to learners to, you know, companies deciding on technologies etcetera this to me is so crucial. You know, like having that ability to. See that grids are less used than than flex box that more people are aware of it, and likely about the start learning it. That's an indicator. And that's that's good feedback loop. So let's talk units and selectors row quick because I don't know. I kind of term, I know the first this whole category. I'm like, what's the value here? And now the more I stare at the more I start to think about it. I think there is value. And one thing that's worth pointing out is this is the first state assess saucer, you mentioned that even on features, it'll be interesting to see trends over time like, well, maybe are moving away from floats, for example, and is not interesting right now. But it will be interesting in twenty twenty twenty one so it's worth noting that this is very much a snapshot, just because it is the first one, but a lot of the really cool stuff that you can start to track as this gets put out year-by-year trends in the industry. And so when I'm looking at the units and selectors I mean, how many people use PX verse? M orces percentage in terms of sizing things, and I, I, I was like, well, of course, everybody uses because you can answer more than one like nine point five percent of people use picks pixel or ninety six point nine percent. Use percent. Now. What what value does provide? But it seems like if you just want to check yourself. You know, like maybe you're, you're just learning CSS. Or maybe you're like wondering if you're doing it wrong, and you come to something like this, and you see, maybe I feel like PX is like the old school way. And you're supposed to use M's or Rams or whatever, and I'm like, oh, no. Actually pretty much everybody's still using this. So I feel good about myself. Is that that the idea with this whole section about units, and pseudo elements and even selectors? Yeah. I think so. First of all, I think a cool thing is just having a list of oldie selectors in or units, or whatever of them like even I have. I've never heard of them like I don't know what E X but you can look it up. Maybe we maybe we can link those up to two supplementation or something. But yet selectors, lots of things that I learned just doing the survey. And then, also because this was the first year we were in sure, whether we should ask, like, we weren't sure which sections with turn out to be interesting. So some of this stuff, maybe we won't keep it for next year. Maybe we'll ask the questions differently or presented data differently. But this year, it's really like just trying to collect as much as we can and see what people respond to, and what they won't more of another interesting aspect was the was the frameworks. I just love a framework, right where the guns, come out. That's right. Kate. So it took us a little while at least to grow this was the term used to describe. It was a I call it a circuit board. But that was just because it looks kind of like one of those diagrams, I don't know what exactly what this chart style is caused dodges their name for this style chart. Yeah. It's a bump chart, so this bump chart, it's at the top, it's an overview in the down beneath. So we're in the framework section, by the way of you're listening, along by doing that. You know, you've got all the different frameworks mentioned bootstrap foundation, etc. What if I'm pretty interesting to me, how little oughta gronk this, but you saw can of left to right the, the kind of three attributes awareness interest in satisfaction. So one are you aware of it, too? Are you interested in it in three? If you've used it are you satisfied with nothing is three good indicators of pretty much any any technology framework. Whatever. What's interesting those how you can sort of just. Look at the interest, because that's the top, you know, it goes from top down in terms of interest, literally but tailwind being the most interested or are having the most interest. But then you also see a correlation not many people aware, however, at the same time just as many who are interested are also satisfied with it. So it would tell me that atom Wadham needs to get out there and market more final ways to do word of mouth goes. Hey, people really like in this thing they're interested in it. They're using it. But they're not very aware of it. And I'm sure he's probably also wear that there's not many people aware of it. But yeah, but I think this is interesting to, you know, one, the folks behind each work, but then to the community of like what's up and coming, you know what should I be learning? What people really satisfy with, you know, in terms of like top to bottom, nothing this really paints bitter, very well, yeah. So I should say that the chart may change a little bit by the time listeners here. It is. So will improve it's a bit too, to make make it clearer. But yeah. I three like it's as well. So we cannot arrived at this chart after many rations. We were trying to cannot have this ranking of ratio. So it's not like absolute values. His bootstrap, obviously, is gonna have more people satisfied than the tailwind, just because more people have used it the community as much much larger, but then if you look at the ratio of satisfied versus non satisfied, then you can actually compare them and then tailwind takes the lead. And also, even though these charts are typically used more to, to show like a chronological data so years, MSA, whatever here. It's kinda snapped in time but at the same time like it kinda corresponds to three stages of adoption. So I you become aware of thing Jay, then you are interested in learning. It then you actually use it and you can be satisfied or not. So it's not chronological data in the sense of. Itself all corresponding to single point in time. But there is this aspect of evolution for a single technology yet. It's a very interesting chart because it starts off super confusing, and we were you had a talk about it, right? What does this even trying to say to us? And then once you figure okay, this is how it's working, then when you look at it, it's almost seems intuitive afterwards, you know, you're, like, okay, this makes a lot of sense, so I can look down here and see that tacky on is that near the bottom awareness, but the interest is kind of in the middle. And then does that his faction is top five. So it's very highly satisfying to those people who are using it, there's it's got decent amount of interest people want to learn about it. But of those people of the whole that doesn't have much of an awareness. So like the people who are aware of it. They do want to try it out. Yeah. It's very interesting chart. Yeah, we always try to include a few like puzzle charts in a way where it's not obvious. Right away, how to read them or whether saying, but then you can kinda decode them and then it becomes very easy to read. So I think maybe the, the overall technologies charged is a little bit like that as well. And we have the, the scattered plowed, the quadrants chart. So there's a few or it's not just not just bars or whatever kind of a little bit of up from the work, but then it's rewarding because you get it you definitely need an explainer for how to read the chart unless, you're, you know, a chart master, and in such case you know, you know exactly how it works for me. It's me about five minutes. So I'm not sure about. Admittedly, and Adam headed, describe it to me. So I'm even lower on the on the wrong there before we move on. I just want to point out my, my favorite framework. Semantic UI is struggling a little bit so forth in fourth-highest, and awareness. So pretty highly aware and very much interest second interest. But then the satisfaction is down more towards the middle of the pack, and I will say that, that's probably this point. Unfortunately, it's deserved because some indicate has been falling behind in terms of maintenance. I just the pure weight of the number of issues and people using it have really bogged down in, we've had Jack on the show a couple of times, try and talk about that even reach out to him say, like what can we do about semantic UI, and helping you out, and it just seems like it's one of these things at the victim of its own success perhaps, so sometimes that's the way things go. Yeah. I think you can look at the booths Trump as well which is number one in awareness, but last in interest. Kinda makes sense but then also pretty low inside his faction. Right. So, yes, sometimes just being the, the number one in terms of sheer size doesn't guarantee like a good though. Aaron harm your satisfaction even because of exactly what's interesting too, is, if you rewind on probably, I'm guessing seven years, eight, maybe, five to eight years, or in that range. Bootstrap and foundation were sort of the rate that because will not to designers who would rather design their thing. But for a lot of people's like I can watch the faster and it's funny that, that, you know, these to correlate very well, in terms of their satisfaction like bootstrap is just one notch above foundation. And you know, roughly the same in terms of interests, like, so lots of people super aware of both both bootstrap and foundation, which sort of parallel one another in terms of what they aim to achieve as a framework, but, you know, the interest and satisfaction, you know, the to me, this is teal isn't when it's good that you can see that these two not so much there in the place, they are, but you can see from anybody's point of view. What is something worth investing your time into? Two and potentially what people have found interested in our interest in and satisfaction. But isn't that aware of SOS move onto methodologies these ways of writing your UCS Esser architect in it? Bam smacks Ozias as Thomas. The assess excetera seems like for the most part, bama's dominant, highest awareness, pretty high interest, highest satisfaction, fifty two percent of respondents have used it before versus the next following up, which is a Tommasi assess which was at twenty percent have used that architecture. Did this surprise you or was this as a as a CSS guru Sasha? Are you any out all surprised by these results? Or is it pretty much? What you'd expect I feel? I'm going to get in trouble. If I go myself as his guru, I called, I called you that you didn't call yourself that, okay? Yeah, no kind of matches. What I expected like bam. I feel is it gonna benefit from being really clear. Really the concept that least really simple. The other methodologies I feel kind of bit muddier. What exactly? They involve. I'm curious about it. CSS or IDC s I haven't really heard of it. But looking looking at up, it can looks interesting. It has a, a good set his faction rating as well. But I think methodologies you know, we wanted to have them because it's something that's kinda unique to see sess Josh crip doesn't. You know, you can have functional programming or object oriented, not cutted fide, like CSS. So I think it's interesting that does have these. But at the same time, I don't think most of lovers are that like, you know, rigid about observing mythology like even myself. I used bam, but in the very like flexible way were as soon as too much work had stopped using unders right? Random classes? So I suspect a lot of people to the same. It's interesting to see that Samak's was sort of the leader of this sort of methodologies instead of framework ING, you know, how to write or rules for writing CSS being sort of flat line in terms of awareness, interest and satisfaction, and being the highest awareness and satisfaction. But just one dip down in terms of interest. But, you know, hey it's works out. Yeah, I think, you know, honestly, I think. S it had a lot of holes like things that were missing. That's why the middle Ogies flopped as a way to, to fill fill out the language. But then the more stuff we have he has his grit flags box to less. We need those medal elegies. And in some cases, it doesn't make a difference like having good classes, always there. But I think the more we can do in the language itself as also with processors like a SAS stuff like both says, so I do think the more you leverage these tools to saner, your looks and the less, you need them, the lodges, and it can't see can become more like a, another programming language like devas, crypt word you can have your own style, but Irving can make sense because language is powerful enough. What's up the can of worms then probably the most highly debated not really trying to describe it. But the says in Java script argument has has been fought and won and lost and refund again. And there's a lot of opinions here. What are we learning from what you've gathered in survey, so stout components number one in terms of awareness, second interest for two this faction overall, you know, pretty high? The one. That's interesting to me is emotion, a low awareness pretty high interest. Number one in terms of satisfaction. So anytime, you know, the number once had his faction ratio has low awareness indicates like an upcoming technology where few people know about it, but the ones who use it are very happy with them and might become like evangelists for that technology. So that that's the kind of thing, I, I like to keep my eye on. And I've used of oldies, I've only used style components and actually forced to CSS just use us s so we don't use CS as j s at all not for any particular reason, more, like we haven't had time to kind of make the switch personally. I, I liked the concept. I think the most valuable thing I think I say that in the in the introduction to that, that section is that the more new ideas, we have, and more new people. We have writhing CSS or C J. The better overall because, you know, I'm not an expert. But I'm sure if it hasn't happened already some ideas from CS jazz will make their way into plane CSS as has happened with SAS and stuff. Like variables or maybe nesting at some point, and you don't have to use those like, if you want to, but I think having a more powerful language, especially before CSS, which started off, as pretty limited. I think it's probably a good thing on the whole what are you lacks Sanjay's or not whether use it or not effing overall? It's probably a good thing for CSS itself. Yeah, I'll tell my Saul pre processors post processors in a, you know, when compass, and SAS it come along the first time I'd seen, you know, the idea of programming Rubin in the case now since moved on from ruby, I believe, to other languages to do the stuff the preprocessing stuff. He exactly in, you got the these higher order, you know. Not limited to simply using CSS itself to produce CSS file at the time. This has been years ago, I blow my mind and I was like this is anarchy. This is crazy. This cannot happen, then I was like, no. This is amazing as looked into it further and ask you the same thing happening here with CSS and India. Is that what you're gonna see the language put forward in a lot of ways CSS itself is the language it is today, and has some of the features at has because of the pre and post processors, and I would assume that symbol, things would happen by pushing it in the way that CSS in cripple, push it. Yeah. Maybe, you know, jazz might be a transfer a couple years CSS will catch up and start using less unless I think that's might happen with SAS, actually because with think like grid where which lets you not use breakpoints. Which means you'll need Nixon's as much with fireballs with, you know, calc all these things are kinda eating up like the things that SAS were was so good at. So it's really interesting to me to see how yes he is kinda making all these other tools obselete by by just evolving in the right direction. So let's just hit a couple of real quick ones in the other tools, and environments. And then I wanna move onto opinions but text editors VS code seventy three point eight percent of respondents using VS code sublime thirty five percent sorry to the vim party, chat room and our slack only eighteen percent of people responding to this particular survey are using them for development browsers, we have chrome dominant ninety two point two percent of people are using that browser specifically during initial development and then fire FOX with fifty three percent. Not seeing brave anywhere on the. Lists. I must have not taken the, the survey because I'm a brave user, even during development environments, chrome during this is the same one browsers which browsers developed, so that, that's a mistake on version. You're seeing this is the which browsers you test. And so. Right. Not so much to one yard most at home in, but the one you make sure everything works, and Asha so, yeah, much more people doing other. That's a good thing, right? So we have people testing browsers that they're not using on the daily so much more Representative safari edge safari. I s I e chrome Android etcetera etcetera which form factor. Do developers test on pretty much. Everybody's has on desktop ninety nine point seven percent. That's only a few hundred people are not even using a desktop at all to test, which was. What's wrong with you folks? Got a pass on desktop ninety one point six percent. So it drops off a little bit for smartphones. But still pretty good penetration. In terms of testing on phones tablets, seventy percent so on, you can read those those results for yourself. So let's get to this opinion section. This was cool. So we'll close with this one here, I guess, and maybe have you state. Some of your conclusion Sasha's we tail off the call, but this is a section, which is basically like you answer. Do you agree with this? Do you strongly agree? You know, kind of sliding scale strongly, disagree, and it has a bunch of statements about CSS. And so I thought this was very cool section of the survey. The learning curve has so the statement is CSS is easy to learn and pretty high agreements, thirty four five percent agree. And then twenty another twenty five percent rounding strongly, great pretty much, nobody invite. Nobody I mean, three hundred forty people strongly disagree. That statement. So CSS still even though it's evolved and added a bunch of stuff and people get caught up with how selector residents and all that stuff, they are things. But overall seems like people are thinking as easy to learn a speaking of evolve. -ment CSS's evolving, too, slowly. This is one that I thought I would see more agreement on. But most people are pretty much neutral on this, this apprise, you Sasha or does this reflect what you think about the volving ac- assess. Yeah. Also the agreement would be higher. Maybe that's because have been using has for a long time, and still use to this glacial pace of change. Well, maybe I should say that. For a while. We didn't have as a obvious as like improvements where as visible, maybe that's it. I know a lot of work was going on behind the scenes on browsers and stuff. But. Effing especially compared to the last couple years with flex box. The pace has really picked up. So I think if you've, you know, started using c as in those dares, you probably feel like it's evolving just fine. If you're more used to, you know, ten years ago or whatever, maybe you agree with that statement more. The question that I also enjoyed CSS is a programming language. This is one that the, the folks to argue about on read it and whatnot. Most people strongly disagree thirty one percent. And then another eighteen percent disagree twenty percent neutral. So most people are either neutral on this or disagree or strongly disagree. The CSS is a programming language. What's, what's your take on that one? I don't know. I think probably all depends on your definition of programming language. Yeah. But I would say, yes, because does because I don't know what else what else was basic definition to is in. You are programming machine to do something. And it is a language, so at us basic court is programming language are you programming the machine in though will your programming. I suppose it depends. Yeah, there's some really interesting these you do see us. But you're declaring well that's, that's where the debate is. Right. And they're in there, unless the, the debate sawed. Agree with that, that there's a debate. It's obvious. So we have one hundred percent agreement that there's a debate about whether or not the Rogaine. Well, that brings me to my point here is that the statement is CSS is a programming language rallies, find kind of hard because it's like is it agreeing or not agreeing, when you say strongly disagree, because it's like we disagree with the statement. Right. Exactly. But it's hard to rocket you have to sort of, like process at one at least me at the process, a couple of times to be like thinking reading or disagreeing, but it is or it isn't in then athletes. Okay, good. Good. So most of the people disagree that it is a programming language. That's the porn make an ear thirty nine five percent. If the strong stronger agreements, the disagree, and you got fifty eight almost sixty percent right? Thirty plus eighteen. Yeah. The forty seven at roughly fifty percent either agree or strongly disagree, or disagree. Well, whether or not the programming language, that's kind of a fun meta debate. But let's finish on this one enjoyment. I enjoy writing CSS now. We're not gonna have much controversy here because these people who, like CSS 'cause they're taking the CSS survey to certain degree, and of forty eight point six percent strongly. Agree twenty seven percent agree, fourteen percent neutral six percent, roughly disagree, and then only four hundred forty two respondents strongly disagree that they enjoy riding CSS. So despite all of its, would you call that glacial, if all evolvement than glacial change, and the debates about it being a programming language, and the, the tooling and the word to put it I put in own filed put in my in my Java script for the most part, people do enjoy writing. So that's a good thing. Well, let me just say this Leonard at effing. The pace of change is much faster now. And also that think, you know, 'cause a lot of people from like the CSS writing group like this development group health us, plus your c. Says guru now, so you're you're Pinon really matters now. Yes, I have a oficial business cards, you can put that on your Lincoln. But yes, it one thing I learned actually, by working with the, the working group people, some of them is that says, like those so much more than what we typically think let's say that you need to this split your website on the smartwatch, and that smartwatch has a around face. So there's people who are tasked to figure out how ceus works on circular screens, or fridges, or really all kinds of devices, all kinds of environments, and, yeah, it's a really tough job, especially like, when you see how well see us works at the end of the day across browser across devices. There's really nothing else like it. So there's no otter way off styling visually styling your content, like anywhere. Like is like how unique and the fact that at the same time, it's still kinda easy to learn and enjoyable riots. I think it really says a lot about the quality of the work off the CSS people, so that I mean, I always had my annoyances about CSS, but at the end of the day, I think it's important to relieve value, the work that's gone into it. I think that there's times when we've brought CSS up on this show in particular, with in designers coming on the show sharing, you know, I'm thinking, in particular, the, the most recent one, which was like design thoughts for developers base. I can't recall the title driven you can help me out with them, but there's always this. If you bring up CSS, there's always sort of, like this cringe, but there is still some enjoyment, in writing it, it's just very hard. It's, it's a hard language in my opinion to, to really master. It takes a lot to really master it. And even when you think you've mastered, it, you have just begun to scratch the service of mastery and. Unless you're Meyer, something like that, then, then, of course or whoever read the books. Yes. Has mastery, right? That's. They're the masters. That's how you master reds. Right. Right. Wanna mention to we would have covered awards here in this call because that's something we love to give praise to either for the frameworks out there. Those leading the way. However, those details are not finalized, just yet. So we couldn't quite cover those. But, you know, one thing you do say if this is accurate in the current state of the state assess website is, if we had to pick a theme for this year, it would be new beginnings. And so I want to charge everyone out there listening that if you care about the feedback loop to this community, CSS or Java script, then I would encourage you to get to know Sasha better or subscribe to the Email list, whatever it takes to, to put your perspective into the story because without your perspective, we don't really have a quality feedback loop, so it's important have everybody's voice and more importantly, it's important to have. You know, a wide spectrum of opinions on what's being used out there it's going to inform the larger users of CSS, it's gonna form the larger perspective and future of CSS, and feature technologies to enjoy even more. So this sometimes love hated language at least from my opinion, so any closing thoughts from you since you have a conclusion, here in, you've done so much work behind this. You are file have put so much effort into this. We appreciate that is there anything you want to close with or share with the audience before we say goodbye, while I just wanna thank you guys for having me on. And yeah. Basically, I hope people will find this valuable will enjoy it. I was a lot of funds to, to Bill and, you know, we always have fun with the design, and it's always interesting for us to look at the data and, you know, I really hope that this can become like a just like the state of jazz, like a yearly thing that we can. See trends, evolve over time and the what I would really like to do, even more is just keep expanding this to different the main so DeVos's CSS, maybe who knows react, graph q. Well, others lot. We can do before we cannot run out of things even that we use ourselves like no Gatsby. There's so many things. And so we have knows maybe next year. We'll have even more surveys. Deductive out. I don't know. I which point I am L start losing, my sunny, the Elmo how many surveys I can run at the same time. But I definitely wanna try worst-case near you have more close such a t shirt for reserve inter year. Then, hey that's an easy way to outfit your, your closet. Also, any that at least seven surveys have won t shirt every day of the week. You're a minimalist. That's good on remind folks state of CSS dot com and state of j s dot com are the two places you can go to sort of. Catch up on pass results. And and just play your part right now. The survey is over forced CSS come back next year, if there's an extra force, but those are two places you can go from there. There's lots of link to Twitter Facebook, EMA lives. Thank you so much for joining us today. Was awesome to get behind the scenes. Look at the survey thing up to the details behind things like this are really interesting to us. Thank you for your time. Thanks. All right. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the change, lo guess what? We have discussions on every single episode now so to change log dot com and discussed this episode eight. If you wanna help grow this show, reach more listeners, influenced more developers favoring give us a rating or review in tunes or apple podcast, if you use overcast, give us a star tweet link, if you make lists of your favorite podcast include us in it and poor, thank you to our sponsors, go CD in role bar, also thinks the fastly, our ban with partner throw bar or monitoring service and owed our cloud server of choice. This episode is hosted by myself Adams to Kobe injured Santo, and our music is done by break Masterson with her. If you want to hear more episodes, like this ascribe to our master feed, and change log dot com slash master or go to your podcast app and search. For change while master, you'll find it. Thank you for tuning in this week. We'll see against.

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Cloud Custodian with Kapil Thangavelu

"Cloud resources can get out of control. Proper management constraints are not put in place. Cloud Custodian enables users to be well managed in the cloud cloud custodians a Yambol. Dsl that allows you to easily define rules to enable a well managed cloud infrastructure can be security and cost optimizations Capelle thank Avello works on Cloud Custodian and he joins the show to talk about modern cloud management and what he's building with Cloud Custodian Nord. Vpn Is a VPN service. Puts you back in control of your Internet experience nor VPN has of servers in more than sixty countries? There's no data longing because the companies registered in Panama and Nord. Vpn's chrome browser extension is lightweight and user friendly from the first click there's android and IOS APPS to secure your mobile browsing experience. And there's twenty four seven customer support. There's an automatic kill switch and even works in China. It bypasses the great China firewall in the Middle East countries like Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates Nord. Vpn Is a great VPN service. You can try and get sixty eight percent off a two year plan plus one additional month for free when you go to Nord. Vpn DOT com slash s daily or using code s. Daily special offer makes your subscription. Just three dollars and seventy one cents per month. It's a risk-free with Nord's thirty day money back guarantee good and Nord. Vpn NORAD VPN DOT com slash s daily and take control of your Internet experience. Thanks for listening and checkout Nord. Vpn Kapila welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to beer. Simple question what is a cloud resource? A cloud resource is any type of thing. You can provision through one of the cloud. Api's that exists within the cloud control points so an S. three bucket and BS Snapshot Google Cloud Function are all resources that you're creating and provisioning in the respective cloud provider using their control. Eight the is. Why is it difficult to manage cloud resources? Because there's so many ways that people can provision them they can't trade them in the council they create them using tear form or cloud formation or CD K. Or blew me are answerable? And so there's so many different ways of provisioning and creating these resources that it creates additional and there's so many permutations around the configuration of them that it creates a problem of. How do you manage the across all the different APP teams within an organization so individual teams might use different technologies but at the same time in organization wants to make sure that regardless of what tools a team used that their overall footprint of resources is being well-managed is management of cloud resources about cost or is it about God collection policy? What exactly is it important for. So I'd say an organization being well managed in the cloud comes out to like three broad. Pillars one aspect is security just making sure that the resources that are being provisioned are not being shared excessively an organization boundaries. All these cloud resources are typically euro accessible just by knowing the fire so making sure like so that traditional dish network perimeter security really has shipped it out to being the configuration of these resources since they are globally accessible through a euro. Second Bucket. Is things around as you noted Cossack mutation so finding things that might be have been overprovisioned. That aren't being utilized anymore and able to detect those and eventually clean them up recite them turn them off at night to affect additional cost savings and then the third tier is really around. Sort of operations slash compliance. So making sure. All of your resources are tagged correctly for cost accounting purposes making. Sure that all of your resources are logging. A centralized bucket and operational things like taking backups etc. So really you know when we look at what we're doing it's really about helping organization be well managed in the cloud across all these different dimensions. What is Cloud Custodian so custodian? It is an open source project that I started when I was at capital. One in two thousand fifteen and it was really about looking at how the organization was handling all different aspects of going to the cloud and a lot of the things. Were that map to either controls. Good Governance and operations were done as one offs scripts and as I looked forward to where the organization was at the time at the beginning of their cloud journey to where they would be going that there will be thousands of these things and security and start off as a way of making it simpler to author policies by credit using a gamble. Dsl It up to run times the different cloud providers for real time enforcement. And then they all the drive behavior change through notifications and remediation of things. I was open sourced in two thousand sixteen and I've been leading into development and community ever since it's really targeted to be a to a one stop shop for organization suit to find a tool that can address across all these different needs to being well managed in the cloud of how cloud custodians useful so a couple of use cases for custodian. I think we making sure that all of your assets have proper encryption at rest across all their storage is making sure that all of your resources which potentially have embedded access control policies are not granting access outside of your or setting up developed off hours for turning things off at night and development environments across databases servers compute resources. Some all this sort of use cases that are around those three pillars security costs. Opposition in governance operations are really things that people can express. What stadium itself? Now support of different resources given policies set of filters in a set of actions to fill defined the interesting set of cloud resources and take some action on set of actions on them and people have expressed you know it's possible express millions of different policies with historian. And so we've seen that across you know essentially setting up Diaz protection around all of your public points. Make sure all your public points. Are Logging doing network security and so Gareth that you're using US one point. Two one point three encryption across logging return points. The one who list of things that people do is quite large and generally speaking we see that organizations that adopt custodian discontinued Have more policies to the tunes of thousands of policies that across different things that they need to do describe the usage of cloud custodian in more detail so city itself. You know it's a one line install. It's a it's a. Cli Tool we very much. Try to promote the use of it in. I get ops fashioned where you author policies as code in the form version. Control them you do on them. Doing dry runs and Schema validations and code reviews and then you run the tool itself so custodian you write a yelp policies that are contained within it each policy targets particular resource type say S. Three Buckets. It comes with a execution mode which allows you to say either that you want to look at everything that you have out there or potentially want to do execution mode where you're actually looking at in doing. You're executing a policy in response to a given event and we city itself supports dozens of different event modes across all three major public cloud providers aws azure GDP. So in in that mode might be whenever I create a bucket or modify bucket at this policy. When you run the Cli the will actually provision the appropriate service stack on the different cloud providers such as those event. Api calls are happening. That the policy itself is going to be invoked and so it's provisioning itself into the service run time to the different providers and hooking up the event streams for you. Tell me more about what is coming across these event streams so typically what students doing is a neighbouring youth to look at the API calls that are happening on the cloud control plane so all the different providers have API's and does API's are all have some form of audit log so castilians basically saying allowing you to subscribe to those different API calls in as they're happening be able to in Boca policy to verify that what's being created. A modified is still compliant too. What the organization's goals are in. Tcp that we use. It's an that's all happening fairly selectively in real time with Alesi of a few seconds and terms of after the fact of the API call. So what are the advantages of using cloud custodian? So there's a number of advantages. I think for a lot of organizations. Adopting the cloud ends up being a longer process because they also have to deal with the risk and compliance and security an opposition aspects of it and considering gives you a tool that allows you to govern at scale at speed and doing it in a real time way. What was I? You know building hysteria. Now we noticed that different parts of the org would have different tools. They ended up becoming like a big wall of red so being able to do remediation and enforcement and being able to drive the behavior change the developers by letting them know in real time like sending them US message if they wanted Dave based on the Internet but as well as you know removing in fixing the problem as well so teaching the users within the organization how they can do things for our organization policy in the future but also fixing the problem immediately and it ends up being like the set of things that we that Custodian addresses end up. Being sort of a set of universal needs that I've seen across thousands organizations that are using sodium today. Tell me more about the problems of building. Cloud Custodian so one interesting aspect has been you know doing testing with Custodian Kobe's series supports. You know hundreds of resources hundreds of filters and hundreds of actions and you can sort of combine those like Lego Bricks. When we were looking at you know how do we make sure that we're actually end? We're testing a lot of surface area. Us exercising a lot of the surface area of the cloud providers. So one of the questions was. How do we ensure that we're doing testing around these things because people are using these mission critical production environments and so we settled on a technique called flight recording? Where we're actually just you know writing to disk obviously responses from the cloud providers and that's been really useful in a couple of different contexts. One is that we're able to were the test itself has encoded. Its context and setup. Rex able to take those unit tests and actually run them as functional tests where we'll provision noncompliant infrastructure round the policy verify. Its behavior and we can run those as for offline unit tests as part of our. Ci and we're up to three thousand plus in attest around the different providers and bring that same semantic across all the different providers. Pcp AZURE AWS. So that we have good in depth coverage across the surface space. We looked at you know doing tools mocking and stubbing. But unfortunately they just they weren't high fidelity enough to all the different corn cases around some of the API areas. We've actually recently been doing some work here to actually expose some of this capability to users to be able to author tests for their policies where they can stand up noncompliant infrastructure using a tool like tear form and then validate that their policy actually detected and took appropriate action successfully in other interesting challenge has been custodian. Has think we're up to close to three hundred contributors. So you know allow the code base is evolving. We've relied heavily on sort of are having fairly good test coverage to allow strip re factor cleanly and freely so many different triggers so many styles. We've relied heavily on wanting and and various. Ci Tools to help sort of bring a uniformity to carry base. I think you know some of the tools in on exists. I for automatic. Formatting facebook Gatto called black obviously in other languages like Oh that's built in would be nice to sort of do and we've got some additional rick factories that we wanted to originally custodian was just rented. But as we've added more providers we actually WANNA reflector outta clean core so that all the providers are installed independently currently the ads. Wanted sort of always available by default so a lot. It's just been figuring out how to sort of scale. The Community of our users are in enterprises. It's actually been interesting looking at. How many users create a get up account just to interact with the city in project which I've always found interesting and so some of it's also about educating our user population on sort of what is good etiquette with ours to open source and then of course in trying to encourage contributions does the DSL in cloud custodian work so internally Syrian Kobe's we actually have sort of a plug in architecture around resources in the various filters providers that class model for given resource actually is used we specify for Meta data on those classes. What the expression capabilities are how that class element could be used as fighting a policy We're doing that through Jason Schema fragments at runtime will actually generate on Schema. That's used to validate the Gammel file. Based on what the actual research types they're loaded. Originally we actually generated out for everything we supported. But we've gone to more lazy loading technique where we're dynamically generate the SCHEMA based on. What's actually in years? And that's also been part of our engineering efforts around reducing Kulsar Latency and service environments do us lazy loading throughout our time so the actual Yamal policies are effectively a array of Halsey each the policies specifies a resource type an execution mode one of those events with filters and actions and that's filters actions executions resource types are all sorts of being sourced dynamically from these different registries and then as we go to actually execute the foul on back run allegation which as on game on can also do a dry run to sort of see what resources the policy would've would find without actually taking actions on the shoora announced the Beta of its cloud offering in June and it's now gone GPA. As Reminder has sure cloud has the assure graph engine as a base? Its goal is to give you his shirt as a cloud offering where you don't have to think about the number of instances course memory concurrent users have ability real time monitoring cashing tracing rate limiting and other things that are infrastructure concerns. And Not really things that you want to spend time on. The launch includes updates to the free forever tear availability in Multiple Regions Hiroko. Db Auto Sync and support for custom domains. Also my sequel and sequel server are coming soon. Check it out at harsher dot info slash s Daily. That's assure H. A. S. U. R. A. Dot Info Slash s Daily. Thanks to her for being a sponsor of software engineering daily Anche. Check it out. If you're looking for a graph you'll as a service provider what's the deployment model for Cloud Custodian so in Custodian came out of a large enterprise. And I have been community for twenty years. What I was trying to avoid was sort of. Conway's law of the project itself reflective of the organization that originated versus it's intended usage. And so he takes a very unintimidated view with regards to how people wanted to play it their users that use it on their laptop just a interactive query tool for the cloud users deploy and get hub and get labs or Jenkins or Cuban Edison. Were pretty uninitiated about how users should apply it because if we look at we recommend to them they treat as part of their their. Ci Process of they have a policy repo that they treat policies is code and and engaged employ some form of gaps mentality to deploying policies and executing them but ci tools vary widely across organizations and and even within an organization so to avoid being too overly couple to that. We distribute a several tools. That can be used in different runners that will do you know automatic analysis of policy repel to generate out minimal different policies and be able to do a dry run on on that subset and validate across the whole thing so in some cases we see deployment models that are using centralized accounts to sort of manage across said of all the other accounts of normalization and amusing account interchangeably for project in Azure subscription. And we see them. Deployed as for leaf nodes deployed separately within each of the accounts. And we really are underpaid. About which way an organization chooses to do that because there's trade offs to both. There's you know blast. Radius or considerations around centralized and then there's infrastructure management considerations around going decentralize two point in a different way of its own cloud infrastructure assets lambda functions Google hop functions as your service functions to subscribe to those events dreams and does not match from a deeper vision perspective through traditional tools that we deploy in some cases. We've found that users want to use a more standardized provisioning tool that they may already be familiar with and so we have some basic support for Jerry. Out By confirmation templates from policies but generally speaking we find the vast majority of our users use the built-in provisions and capabilities of Does Cloud Custodian vary in its coverage based on the cloud provider. You using definitely. We've had a lot of great contributions from different organizations including folks from the PCP. Aws azure cloud providers have all have contributions into custodian. But I would say right now. We have significant portion where user population as definitely on aws we have a significant number of users on Azure from a and I think probably probably has a few years ago. We have fairly good coverage I think through most of them. Part of the challenge with keeping up with the capabilities is also keeping up with all of the new features coming out of cloud so a requires for the constant irritation and tracking to keep up with all the new features that the providers themselves are producing from a coverage perspective. I probably say I would be hesitant to try to spitball a number. But I'd say by far it'd be I think we have the strongest coverage. I think azures probably second which is speed there as far as and running on talking about coverage I'm talking about addressing every single capability of that provider with the coverage goal of or on ninety percents. Are there any elements of cloud management? That are particularly hard to implement through. Cloud Custodian Mutt. Really none of the common ones. I can't really think of too many the ones that ended up being some that are more interesting but they tend to be more data analysis problems like doing analysis of all of your claw. Trout logs do automatic. I'm medication on your roles to decrease least privilege things at our going through your flow logs to understand the collectively models so they tend to be more data origin problems of crunching through big assets to to find answers with regards to the general cloud management capabilities. Ed Protecting Resources. There's been I think we have fairly strong. Coverage thinks a lot of industry shifting that will to moving to more of a shift left depsite ops pipeline where a lot of the evaluation of whether or not a resources compliant or not as actually moving to actually happen within the pipeline directly against the security code assets that might be tear former or clot formation arrest research templates for example. So part of what we're doing now source is actually building out trying to build additional capabilities for city policies evaluate as more of a static analysis of those types of assets directly within the pipeline themselves. How does cloud custodian help with compliance so a lot of compliance is is providing evidence? That you've done something that you've looked for the thing that you're trying to be compliant too. And then you providing evidence that you've been looking for continuously and this is what you founder didn't fight and so you know. Custodian has this notion of very rich outputs metrics outputs district tracing outputs structure records into a blob store. So typically an organization will set a policy. That is running. They used the policy. Rico in get ends up being a an audit log of the policies themselves that are being and when they came into effect in the given environment and then the execution outputs from policy archaic ways to to a Blob store like S. three or buckets that s storage. And they're those things then formed sort of an audit record of evidence on for a given account tenant boundary for this policy in this research type. This is what was found at a given point in time. Tell me more about the usage of filters in cloud custodian sure so our full languages pretty rich so we have a default value filter which allows generally designed to lie to do any sort of attribute matches on source. And it's using a language. Call Jamie as PAP which was originally came from sort of the AWS CLI has stashed. Ashbury option exists. That Jamie has that Org. It's survey a loose standard more de facto implementation. It's been picked up by the AZURE sea aligns. Mother tools wanted to give it as a lottery based jae-kyu so that you can now sort of point at data structures within Jason or Jason Document and do some arbitrary particular keys and values and so the default value filters designed to lighted to dig into any cloud resource in it's Jason description down to any Level and we use that for a whole host of things from you know. Find out when you're certificates going to spot or to making sure that your access keys being rotated just by passing it different types of values and doing conversions and addition to that we do a lot of sort of related filters most of these resources exist sort of with n a graph a compute notes attached to network in has this particular service account or I am access role and those have access to particular sets of resources so we use our ability to control plane in having these resource coverage to allow you to do related resource filters so being able to verify that using the appropriate encryption key for this particular storage bucket and so those sort of one hop relationships are something that we also direct express filters and course do as an example making sure that the sub net that. You're deploying a compute instance to has an appropriate tag that denotes that it's private or that it support the application and so the do that secondary attributed evaluation on a related resource ends up being a wave expressing a lot of common policy uses and then a rental these individual types of filters in value filters related filters and lots of ad hoc ones that we produce to purpose or use case. Is the notion that we can combine these arbitrary ores answer not with nesting so that you're able to simply express additional Halsey. Were actually actually been doing work on actually adopting a simpler expression language. I've always been sensitive to holidays. Should be easy to offering easy to read so trying to avoid sort of I guess politely Yemo Vomit. And so how do we make things very concise and succinct to express? And we've been looking at a news de facto standard from Google called Comics russian-language. And we've had one of our contributors from capital. One has written a cell pipe on one tation which expresses the cell expression tribute language directly within available in Python which itself has written. And that we're looking at now being exposed a new type of filter one where you're effectively doing multi tribute matching within a single expression line. You have a business around. Cloud Custodian. Is that correct? That's correct so earlier. This year been leading the Custodian Project in community for the last four years and early this year. I decided that you know. One of the best ways to accelerate the growth in adoption of custodian would be actually started up a company around it. And so me. And My co-founder Travis have started up. A company called stock let which is really designed to help organizations be well managed in the cloud and by building on top of Custodian to deliver that out of the box value and scale for organizations that want to adopt for governance in security management purposes addition to that we've also been working with some of our partners in the community capital. One Microsoft Amazon. Actually Moved Stadium Project itself into a foundation so it is now the cloudy of Compute Foundation as a sandbox project. And what's Your Vision for the company? Our Vision for the company is to continue to lead the development of Custodian to continue to add features to it but also to build out the tooling that organizations need to be able to successfully adopted sturdy scale and so you know I said Custodian Selfish Very unpainted about how to deploy things and that's partly because different organizations at different needs but as we go to build up product at Stockland. What we're trying to do is give users outbox experience of managing policies in get ups and executing across lots of accounts and hierarchies vamping up those policies to this counts and having sort of that all the box experience having Ui you accelerate manageable on those things as well whereas with custodian self like you know the philosophy is it's going to generate the structured outputs and annual drop them into safe driver metrics or watch metrics the best expert there in that context is the one that you're already using and you're simply pulling the data from whereas something like Stockland Platform. What we're trying to do is actually deliver that value to you directly without you having to configure or to aggregate it into your existing capabilities. So let's say I have a data science heavy stack. I'm spinning up tons and tons of resources to do intensive machine learning jobs would cloud custodian helped me in that regard so what custodians intended to do is make. Sure that those stacks at you're creating are perfectly per the organization's guidelines so starting itself is not a provisioning tool. It's there to make sure that a you know the organization wants to make sure the holidays encrypted at rest that. That's the case wants to make sure that Ben on that data that you're doing in that stack is being made accessible outside of the organization's boundary making help ensure that you know if you leave that stack up accident That gets shut down and so it's not about helping application team provision. It's about helping the organization ensure compliance regardless of those application team choices described the on boarding experience for somebody using cloud custodian. So right now you know it's a one line install so you download it said look for policies study doesn't curling just the rules engine itself. We have example policies there's community repose of various policies so typically your first up either using one of those as a starting point offering one from scratch that need to set up a credential against the different policy for that's appropriate for your policy that gives you the API access and the right level permissions. And then you just run the a so you download your credit policy taxotere and then you're on the Cli and then once I start running it how could I explored what might want to do with cloud custodian so we have interactive in command line? Help that shows all the different resources and filters and actions along with examples and that sort of built in and also forms the basis for reference. Docs and we've got you know a few dozen examples reach of the providers on things you can do. I guess. Part of the question is really focused on you. Know what the use cases at organization has or what they use your has for what they're looking to definitely used custodian in larger. Environments is just sort of an ad hoc query of destroying understand. You know who is using this particular army or the use it as sort of a Swiss army knife with regards to answering questions but in terms of what you do with the next a lot of it's based on what your use cases are some organizations come and they start off with just doing basic tag management are on resources make auto tech things as created to know who actually made them and then they move onto tension lay doing basic security checks to cost optimization than you know where people take things is really open ended based on where they want to go and so we have capabilities around with lots of different things. But we don't really prescribe users. Which what they should be doing. The typically already know or if they don't know then they're on. The path of learning a examples may be tagged policy. Because you know it's one of those things that every organization has tech policy but not the same and so there's a lot of differentiation that happens at tweet individual ORCs in terms of what they actually want to do or enforce and so part of that is knowing what those are to be able to express them and how they test my policies so right now we're testing policy. You would typically stand up some component of the infrastructure. The cloud research that you're trying to wreck your policy for and then run the policy and down the resource that took the right action on that resource and everything worked as expected. So that's sort of the basic way that people written policies today one of the things as a political earlier when things that we're trying to do right now is actually provide a test harness framework around actually running policy tests with the. Cli That likely stand that non compliant or that infrastructure. You're trying to find using a standardized IC- tools like terrified him. He told me about more esoteric use case for cloud custodian who many so we have a channel what about thirteen hundred users and see something new or different but every other day so as an example. Somebody that wants you. Delete all of their resources but during the holiday break between Christmas and new years. Basically nick out the deb environments during the holidays so steady and has this capability call conditions. Which allow you to express policies that you've committed emerge like say the change order for them but say they're not going to be in effect for sometime in the future and then we support different capabilities around deletion and modification of resources. That's a good question. I honestly don't know that I've seen what is particularly otter weird. I generally find it when talking to users provide sample policies but I still learn everyday people doing an interesting thing to stadium that I'd never would have anticipated. So once I've attached policies two different resources. What they do with those policies and resources like what am I wearing them and my evaluating them my triggering things based off of them talking more about that so when you write a policy for giving resource depending on how you're running it so some people use our default mode is something called the poll mode where he's GonNa effectively. You set up timer Akron Job. That runs that policy. Whatever interval you feel appropriate and it's going to go look at everything in the fleet. So the instances of that particular resource tight when you go to that based mode effectively. You're only looking at changes your fleet or things that are coming up that are new and so they tend to be useful in different contexts. In many cases organizations are starting at Greenfield. They're they're starting with an existing environment and so they may say well. Let's give thirty days' grace to everyone that's end this existing environment of the guards to let's say moving to a new. You know -Til Standard version. And so they will give a grace period for the things that are forty existing based on date filter around the gration they will then create a an event based policy. That will sort of do that. Enforcement for all the net new things that are coming into the environment and so you can also do this. Notion ships for chaining policies together to create simple workflows so being able to say as a human expression of a policy Say anything that's not tack correctly. Send the Creator in and after a one week go ahead and stop that resource and send another email and after another week go ahead and delete the resource and so you can change these policies together using sort of what we call. Mark Farrah as a action as a filter which effectively uses a tag message on the resource to say that you know we will take action and so you can get very rich capabilities and human semantics around Halsey. Spicer chaining his policies together. Tell me about some of the more advanced usage of cloud custodian so the Custodian tends to be organizations that have sort of thousands of policies that are managing across thousands of accounts and then using some of our events were output capabilities so concerning itself has villages around you know deploying indifferent execution abuse configured or scripted guard duty events hooked up to Google Cloud Security Command Center. But the interesting part is just being get a common set of outputs across all these policies will deep diving into X. Ray Integration so like we'll actually do distributed trace outputs around the policy execution itself all. Api calls were happening and sort of mapped out to the policy arche but for most users advance usage than typically is about what they're doing policies that's not really what we're doing and tools and within the custodian self. It's what they're able to express and how they're able to manage that at their organizations need and scale and so the most advanced users end up being those with the most number of policies because they changed it used custodian to Wide scale know. It's an open source project WITH BOTTOMS UP GROWTH. But it it. It's different than a lot of products because it typically gets deployed across Footprint and so those typically have very different needs with regards to the different application teams are lines of business within an organization which policies they want to have enforced in which environments but from an advanced perspective a might be adhering to various standards with guard so like GP ARE PCI and a might be going through on a dance event based policies and so as a primary maintain for custodian. I don't spend a lot of time sort of offering policies for users. I really you try to focus on making it possible for them to express those themselves so in some cases I may not be aware of sort of all the things that people are are doing today with custodian as I said I. I'm often surprised in find new things. People are getting stadium every at so couldn't say answer to so they against these cases of people already are. I can definitely talk to our integrations and from an immigration perspective Takes a different view with guards to what the cloud providers themselves are doing so recognized that the cloud providers you now are naturally going to continue to beyond their existing breath of resources and features. They're also going to add capabilities directly related to addressing some of the same problem is custodian does and took care to city takes a philosophy of being the easiest way to use those new capabilities sets as they come out so be. It can take stadium policy. Deploy Custom configured role. And just you but you get a tax production with guards to both provisioning and code. You can use it. What secure security hub? You could use it what you speak. Lock Security Command Center. Our actually looking at some capabilities around sort of taking a custodian policy transform it into some of the Policy Language. And so a lot of what we're trying to do is make it easier for users to take advantage of all these features and to enable organizations to be more productive club. We'll Kapila is there anything else you'd like to add about cloud custodian. Yeah I think you know really excited about some of our movement to all to evaluate policies against resources earlier in the pipeline and to work on some Cuban support as sort of a a fourth provider unless while growing community as we go on. Cf Journey and looking forward to growing the computer population or role community Bulwell Kapila. Thanks from the great talking to you. Thanks today's episode of Software Engineering Daily is sponsored by data dog a monitoring platform for cloud skill infrastructure and applications data dog provides dash boarding thing application performance monitoring and log management in one tightly integrated platform so that you can get end to end visibility quickly and it integrates seamlessly with aws so you can start monitoring EC two RDS ACS S. And all your other. Aws Services in minutes visualize key metrics set alerts to identify anomalies and collaborate with your team to troubleshoot and fix issues fast. Try It yourself by starting a free fourteen day trial today. Listeners of this podcast will also receive a free data. Dog T shirt go to software. J. Daily Dot Com slash data dog to get that fuzzy comfortable t shirt. That's suffering daily dot com slash data dog.

Cloud Custodian cloud Custodian Kobe Halsey Custodian Project Custodian aws US Google Middle East Nord Yambol Nord Saudi Arabia dish network Policy Language
Purity Culture

The Fundamentalists

1:10:32 hr | 10 months ago

Purity Culture

"Hi everybody and welcome back to the fundamentalists podcast. This is the day after Valentine's Day happy Belated Valentine's Day. This'll probably go tomorrow Sunday. Maybe maybe it might be hard for car together up dot quick. That's true very good so we'll good news. Thank you court Whatever happens thank you Welcome back folks. My name is Elliott. Morgan I'm here with my good friend. Peter Rollins who is a philosopher writer theologian speaker handsome man of all those things as well and so today. We're GONNA be talking about purity culture which I'm very excited about. Because you got all sorts of goodies and this one is going to be a good episode How you doing? I'm doing good. What have I been up to you? And you know. Typical Very Shield. I was in Belfast. For a couple of weeks. And that's about it so we can blame the lack of podcasts. On Belfast in Belfast. Yet we have been pretty per house Belfast. Good time I just went home for new particular reason just to see. Yambol and hang on. It was lovely really. That's great. That's good you had a good party. Time and reconnect with Dad. Played Poker with my poker France. Did you win new assault? I could say yes. But didn't you could like it like that. I could add this from here. Yeah Yeah no. I totally kill Freeman gift for you. Did you place like second or not? We didn't do a tournament. We displayed cash. And I you. I think that was like twenty. Quit dine so yeah so. That's pretty cool name. I miss playing poker. We remember when we did that. We gotta we gotta do that again. I need to. I forget the rules immediately. Let alone the the strategy and had actually be okay at it but it is fun whenever we live in planning for years. And then when I've gone to Vegas to sit dine. Suddenly I forget everything because I'm so nervous when you sit down with the pilot people. You don't know you don't seem nervous. I've been with you in Vegas. Which by the way. I'm still down to do a second. Vegas fundamentalist podcast. Yes absolutely do a follow up after the last trip was crazy but I have not heard from from curtis whether he's down for Vegas for another trip. Yeah I think everyone did for them by by not being bitter basically. Do you ever talk on the podcast. The basically abandoned your friends On the podcast no But Yeah I've ended my friends. A girl showed up so and I said when she curtis nights such great plain ride there. I remember we took off in Burbank and we were just like immediately talking and having great conversations and then we landed and I get text messages From this girl named grace who was like okay. I'm on my way to Vegas and I was like I remember turning to Curtis and being like if she comes in Vegas. I'm not going to be around. They have fought and in my mind. I'm like this is me just cashing out all the BRO cards. That I could possibly cash out but I still felt bad. And then grace didn't know at the time that I had gone with you guys. She thought I was just going by myself. Which was the plan because originally we me and her we're GonNa go and then she thought she couldn't go Quote Unquote and yes. So then it was like okay. Well I feel bad but I apologize. Yeah I don't know I. I did everything I could to make amends there and we have moved past up. That's good. He's looking really well to moment. I saw him. The other day is right. Yeah my goodness he's got the beard. He looks like a substantial human. Yeah which I think. I'm starting to fill out a little bit and get like A. I'm also looking at the type of person who you know you get better with it. You just look too young when you're in your twenties that's what the cash should be about. Yes how lucky it is to be a dude and to age into your the same thing. You don't get less cool as you age Thank you well hidden. Yeah dig. You can't get less exactly. You've already hit rock bottom. Yes so let's dive in purely culture. You have all sorts of stuff about. This is an interesting Subject matter because it will require some Some dancing a little bit but I'm excited to do. I think people will like. Oh Yeah I just gassed. Actually the or just realized that This standard definition of purity culture. Not everybody will know what that is. Do you want to explain? What purity culture means. Oh I will swirled can jump from there in the religious world. I think where it comes from the term purity culture is where it's mostly used. Will I will absolutely take the reins here. Peterman expert purity culture myself being a very pure person Pity culture I think in the modern interpretation would be basically The conservative American Christian worldview. That says that sin. is rampant. There are centers out there. They they are different. They are bad. They are Soup they've been seduced by the devil. And therefore Jesus who washes your soul with his blood or whatever Makes you pure and makes you able to enter into the Kingdom of the Lord is nigh? That's interesting is that seems to me to be like like Very kind of broad purity culture. I thought it was primarily to do with not having sex before marriage purity rings. Oh are this purity rings impurity culture not they probably are connected. They're connected okay they have to be. It's I'm so far. We're just talking we before we started this Recording I'm getting over a cold. Sorry folks sorry Corey I'm listening to this reading links series right now I'm wearing their shirt coincidentally but a weekend money for that. Oh Yeah Okay. Yes for us to be sponsor for us to. Yeah you don't want we're not gonNA put our social footprint out there without getting a little Chitchat. Yeah We should start doing pockets more but anyway Yeah so I've been listening to their their stuff and sort of talking about the world. They came from and They they haven't talked much about the purity ring in the purity culture stuff that I definitely grew up around that where people would wear purity rings or promise rings. I got my ex-wife a promise ring when we were like in high school or something like that and make sure that there was no sex after marriage exactly yeah and ultimately. Yeah because yeah I think of it. I didn't grow up in American religious culture but a largely. It was around this notion of the pure that the choose. And you're right but also it's a Ryan a bite when have Saxon Heidehof? Sex IS NOT NEW SEX before marriage. I didn't hear about the how all right. Yeah they get that me and the the when you're still figuring out yeah I have no idea I've seen the videos. Well you know. I like the tax people like to show progress. Yeah so but you're about something totally different. Yeah I mean it's connected in a way 'cause right purity culture out it's very basic is all about Mama Chink cleanliness and DART He is inside. He is outside. Who is who is pure impure and DART is simply modder and its most basic sense. Dart is moderate of please so you look at a sound pit on you. Don't think of it as dirty but if the sound is in your hice we think of it as dirty because it's mater that's out of place on his right this or you don't think of saliva in your mind is dirty but if you spit it the glass you'd find it hard to drink because it seems dirty right. It's it's in the wrong please. Yes so darkness is kind of moderate of police and purity. Cultures are all a bite high to manage rituals of cleanliness. What is clean and what is dirty. What Is Talk. And what is not toxic? And the reason why I wanted to talk about is I've heard and numerous people mentioned the but a lot of people have been talking by purity culture in in religious terms on kind of digging. Outta and San Jose funny it is because impurity culture and religion is like saxes. Fine sex is not dirty but as dirty when us out of police when it's done in a certain way or outside of marriage so it's all about the location. That was the lesson. Yeah I remember being a Kid. My my mom would always ask a bunch of questions curious little tour brain and I would be like I remember being very convinced that sex was bad. Like sex is a bad thing and from a very young age. And then my mom would clarify go. No sex is not bad. Sex outside of marriage is bad and sinful and then I was like okay so it was a weird sort of nuanced approach to it but also one that still basically sent the same message. It's like Oh this. Basically all that means that marriage saves the act of sex like an almost religious where it's like. Oh this thing that would be dirty. You then go through a ceremony and now that thing is is approved by the Lord. Yeah on on. You'll see there are lots of like confessional Christians confessional Christian pastors they will. They will sing. The praises of sex like Saks becomes you know within within a certain confines. It's like pure secret it's beautiful. They'll talk about their sex life with their partner. They'll have preach Abida So it's kind of like an extreme as there is there. Is this purity witness the beauty of on one side but if it's item please than it's dirty it's real yet right? There's also a FO. I mean I remember in college. The church That I went to which the past grades. Great Church Blanking on the name of it right now but He would talk very highly about sex. And in a way. That was kind of funny and kind of like almost taboo or edgy. Because he was a pastor that was singing the praises of sacks And I think it made people feel less jammed up about the subjects but also it was. It was still always under the umbrella of marriage in and So it was almost like rather than like the shift from purity culture in high school with purity rings and don't have sex before marriage it's like the doctrine didn't change the focus changed in the messaging. Where they just focused so on. How great sex isn't it fun? And how wild and crazy sexes with your marital partner for life. And that's that's key for purity culture because in a purity culture The pure is pure. There's no dart it's not on new business like the pure as pure and the dirty dirty. So that's nothing makes sex more fun than being totally pure. It's it's about is a real problem. That's why people like tied. He had sexual revolution mid sex to pure another topic. That's yeah but so you have this right religious world purity culture. There's a few people kind of like if you have come up and maybe rightfully so. They're exercising their demons. Abide up era. But the the implication is that we live with less purity cultures than we did or less people are convinced by those types of purity. We're so past that. Yeah my worry is the bad news. Hell yeah supply us. I worry that there's a proliferation of new purity cultures. What tell me more? Yeah that well you know. Maybe it's at purity cultures always exists at all times but we are living in a time where there are just new insiders and Light. Ciders new Purity and impurity rules new rituals of cleanliness by the way not just culturally like twitter or something like that but also biologically like I. Maybe we'll get into this. Maybe we'll put like M M M C S Multiple chemical sensitivity is. This is a kind of experience in which a person starts to feel that they're allergic to chemicals and modern life. It's also cold like building illness and environmental illness But it's it's worth increasingly like there's a place called snowflake Arizona where people live who feel that they can't be around any modern chemicals or phone signals or You know Even pieper has a chemical dimension And so again. There's a whole controversy a bite. To what extent is Mcs Real but I it's real across. The board is a medical or is it like made it put up. That's the nice way to put it. I'm you know is It's not my first Rodeo. Yes but but it's definitely an element of of people trying to work cleanliness scenarios. Oh soups obsessive compulsive disorder where people are obsessively Kinda working night cleanliness a non cleanliness and if some day in the most pristine apartment world has ever seen nothing to fleas. It's a serial killer apartment. I You were talking about the Roomba I room or whatever. It is my It's great just keep place clean. Picks up all the dust and I was like wow I say I wonder what it would be like to live somewhere. Where the level of dirtiness if you worry about is just dust on the floor like I was like. Oh that's so. Far Down the totem or over my priority cleaning wise. Where it's like. Oh yeah no me and my girlfriend lived. We're pile people. There's piles everywhere it's like a Roomba isn't going to solve the big problem. Yeah that's the that's the littoral surface and five times a day. Good Yeah it's just your friend that make me no wonder you're not hanging out with people at night. You're just hanging out with your room. So snowflake Arizona so even biologically were seen phenomenon in which people are assay obsessive compulsive who's maybe keeping their garage completely ordered new thing that sort of please And we mentioned twitter where there's like again rules for what for he is pure and he is right and who is impure and who is bad and there's a lack of bits and there's a lock of kind of like. Dart cleanliness don't interweave is ambivalence. The right word yet was this. This is a word that Melanie Klein used mysterious. Melanie Klein kind of bring her into the conversation who she so. She was a psycho analyst. Writing the beginning of the twentieth century Big influ influenced by Freud And she she worked with children so her thing was children infants and she developed a theory that there are two very primal. S- I was GONNA say Steve Just. They're not they're kind of Processes the first is called the paranoid schizoid process or position on the other one's called the depressive position and she she kind of postulated that infants between basically between zero and six months So Insane so NC. And I mean that was one of her innovations was. She went really young when she was really analyzing that. Yeah I mean In terms as someone who is very very interested in all this stuff in psychology and all that The overwhelming amount of evidence. Just sort of this this consensus on the fact that it's so early in the life before you can talk before you're aware of yourself is all of these issues can arise blows my mind every every year like anytime. I hear like my therapist This stuff he's like this happens between the ages of like zero and three. He's like there's nothing you can do about it and I'm like you're crazy. Compulsive masturbation issue no the murdering. Yeah all right all right. Yeah yeah a. Masturbation is fine There's like you know white minutes he'll everything but That's gross yes. So yes this is your to six. And you're saying okay so you're saying The difference between like a stage in a process is basically like a stage doesn't a stage almost implies that everyone sort of goes through this but a processes something that is some people go through and some people don't for some babies through some home and I should have had the better word is position. That's what our position is more. You do necessarily move through like you don't is almost like something you leave behind Joshua's a whereas a position is for her this paranoid schizoid position. It manifests itself an adult life as well. You don't move beyond you can minimize it and pretty much. Get rid of it. But there's there's if you're box against the will it might flare up again okay. On the definition of the paranoid schizoid position is. It's busy the paranoid. Dimension is the feeling that there is some external force that is threatening your annihilation. There is something right. There that will overcome you. Par- year you're helpless to stop on the schizoid side of the term. Means you split the world good and bad. There's good objects. And there's good things in the world under Bob Things in the world and you very much. Kind of like a differentiate between the two and that is similar the reason why. I wanted to bring clients who it is because I think she gives a very simple way of understanding of purity culture because purity culture is about splitting into clean Cleanliness dirtiness kind of its power annoyed schizoid position and in religion a lot of religion obviously as a bite cleanliness rituals by what is clean and what is dirty and if you look at religions like Judaism and Christianity. What you discover is there are purity rules and then someone comes up from within their religion and questions the purity rules and says hold on a second. The people you say are dirty. Are they really dirty? And you say you're clean or not clean on they kind of like Ask questions of and kind of deconstruct. The cleanliness dirtiness system in his name was Jesus and Jesus because they exactly well. You can see one of the things that Jesus did as a Jew come into the Jewish religion was questioning the Purity Colette going. Whoever doesn't has not send throw the first stone I mean I feel like that's one of the best and then now story tells it like it. Was it a pharmacy and a tax collector? And out time the Pharisees were very strongly within a purity culture and the tax collectors were very much seen as side and so he tells a story that were eat the Good Samaritan. All of these are stories that question purely culture. He's inside he's outside and this is what Melanie Client. Kohl's the depressive position the depressive position is when she says you start to tolerate. She calls ambivalence ambiguity. You start to realize that that the that the thing that you think is dirty it's not completely dirty and when you think of yourself as clean you're not completely clean and there's a poor snus and there's a dimension in which there's an interconnection between the two the two nine And so the depressive position is when you start to brick of purity culture mentality and have a more Rind notion of reality. It is the most on brand Peter. Rollins thing to be like the position you want to take is called depressing like what are the. What are the yeah? I mean So so basically. After six months many infants might actually experienced or understand that there's a spectrum of good and bad and everything. Yeah she thinks that it's it's happening as well. Even before six months I think she sees it like between zero and four months roughly night by the way this is just her initial reactions but early on vic the child really counts have kind of an ambivalent notion of reality count half and integrated notion. They caught she calls it. Partial objects does well but a partial object. Is You kind of Rick? The say the mother dines who do they call it the good breast right which is when the child is getting food and the bad breast which is when the mother's not Orion the child's hungry and busy. The world is just as crazy please of good and bad and yeah and but then yeah very early on. The child begins to get a richer experience on they goes from partial objects to who'll up checks. They realized their mother for example is not all bad or all good And that's a very healthy thing you know it's like The go it's going from hate the center or hate the sin not the center to all of us have fallen short of the glory of batteries. Wow that's very. You should be a preacher money. That happened that was. I just fired off the last two brain cells and then I have this weekend. Yeah that's it. I mean definitely you could read Jesus as kind of an explosion of the depressive position within a religious purity culture cool and it is funny to use the word depressive. Because here's the here's the bad news and the good news. The bodies for her. There's new way beyond the depressive position over so yeah it's Kinda can mature and it can get batter but the depressive position is kinda where we all have to kind of find. Please where would you go? I mean where would be would be the beyond them. Yeah Yeah it's Bahar to define well but for her there is yeah there is new the the beyond Simba. Would you wanna be on the would you want to be? I feel like when you get to a place where you can understand `ambiguities then you're pretty much in the best position to navigate life. I can't imagine there be unless 'cause then it seems like you get into the other the advancement of this would be where we're at now. Which is people who have convinced themselves that they understand ambassador that they accept ambiguity but in actuality mentally casting people out who are different from them or tweeting about them yes. Hundred Percent Expos the development is. She would say that early in the depressive position. Data's where there's extreme guilt and that is were because like if you initially fi initially think that you're an awful lot But I am I am not. I've seen the twitter I I really demonize you make you a new one dimensional Ademi and then I kind of like you know move into more depressive position and I realize that I've projected a lot of stuff volunteer. I'VE BEEN IN OFFICE. Who'll it is depressive? Because what I have to do is I have to. I feel guilt suddenly feel guilty. I feel like I was Bob. I might have to apologize or repress or I try to find reparations to client by repression and reparations so the early stage of the depressive position is heading reality principle it's experiencing life that your lover is not perfect right. It's experienced in the reality that everybody has issues. So that's a bit depressing unders guilt on. There's an attempt to do fine reparations for the other fix it fix up exactly but then once you've kind of like integrated this idea then. The depressive fears is no longer depressing. So you'll always have. Maybe you little bit of guilt a little bit of like oh I was a bit bad I suppose for her success is not yes you say overcoming the depressive fears but integrating it so well into your life that you don't experience the monarch paranoid schizoid position and then you don't experience that the extreme guilt the comes out of almost like that's how you get a real love like loving other people is when you can understand that there's the would you can love someone with all their junk than that's way better than trying to love someone in assume constantly that they're perfect where you're the most flawed one of the year per it's yet that we well we Since yeah I was thinking about the the stages And Word or positions I guess but with the valley folk and the way that we've sort of navigated the past few months It's been a difficult time in a very depressing time not necessarily depressive but it was interesting because I've gone I've had experiences where my quote unquote audience will turn on me and say horrible things and just vicious vicious things Joe and see if I don't think had experienced that level of of of hate before And none of us have experienced it from our own valley folk. You know our core audience and the amount of people who would reach out and say like horrendous things to us because they you know the What my girlfriend says the good news. Is that the Internet. Always knows everything all the time so people would lash out at us in the instill. Do Thinking that you know. Were these like evil backstabbing dudes and the wave comes after it. In the way that Joe described it was he was like it starts with emotion. It starts with this like being very upset ceilings. Very black and white like this person is perfect and you guys are are all evil and and and that kind of thing and then there were a few people small fraction of people who flipped it who went full board the other direction and all the right ones correct when the The ones who got it. That's off the record but yeah and then there are people go. Oh Yeah no we wish the best for all of you guys. And then the like Britain dude hand so many hand written notes pages long apologizing email direct emails I'm still getting one trickling in of like just on instagram. Dm's people being like. I was so upset by what happened. and I knew when it happened that it was symbolic for the people that that were upset about it so there wasn't too much like hatred of them. Yeah after a while though it there. There's been an anger that's develop where it's like if you're not gonNA exit this this position if you are truly believing that it is black and white and that you have figured out as someone who doesn't know anything then my patients runs like yeah real low but the wave of emotion to logic or paranoid schizophrenic to depressive to see in real time while. I've been doing my best. And the dudes have been doing their best to just be ourselves his. It's like it's fascinating. I mean like 'cause it's completely removed from me in the sense of going. I have nothing to do with. This is the level of Vitriol that's coming toward me truly has not like not a lot to do with. Mehta. It's I'm part it. I'm symbolic but it's something. It's so clear that it's something that affected people in a grander way that I have no control over an actually. Don't mind like we differ from Stephen Joe here a little bit because I think your race because your heart listen. I'm hardly nothing for yes. I feel nothing and I'm associated but yeah the the idea that we that this group of four people meant something so deep for people means of course people are GonNA project onto it. They're gonNA see their own relationships. We've we've influenced people's senses of Humor We've influence their idea of friendship and we also played Nice Nice for a long time. Yeah and so. I think it's perfectly natural for people to just sort of lash out but man the fact that it's still going on is just like it's getting more and more like starting to feel like. I'm just on a leash at. I'm like I'M GONNA I'm GonNa do it. You're getting you're getting dumb fouls agreeing object lesson. What you just described what we're talking about culture. Hey so here's the thing right. This is this is very useful because the reason the reason why so many people reacted to your situation as party because What you guys do like most people like a lot of youtube personalities. You provide a certain stability in Anchorage Times for people who might feel like in. The modern world is very difficult please. People can feel lonely. People can feel anxious. People can have family issues and family on Youtube. What you do is you provide a context. Where and it's real. It's an authentic thing where they connect with you. You have you present also a stable kind of like family relationship On Day feel part of that and they are part of that in variety of ways especially with these interactive things like twitter. Whatever and so when certain brea coppens Dot is going to cause a lot of anxiety and a lot of emotion and and so the paranoid schizoid position is going to manifest under nothing wrong with that. It's just what's going to happen when you realize it you except of course everyone's GonNa feel. I've been there. We all have been there but over time. You know people. Hopefully more and more people will move from the paranoid schizoid position to depressive position. And I saw you can hope for a comedy group. Yeah senior the goal. Yes we just WANNA make you depressed. Get you to the depressive. Yep that is my God that is exactly but I I seen it on. Actually the comments and things on your youtube channel where? I was amazed that very quickly I saw numerous people saying. I'm sorry. I was just frustrated on anxious. I realized I don't have the full story on. I'm sure it's a complicated thing. And the and doubts dos the early stage of the depressive because there's guilt on this recreation the other thing people do and you don't hear from these people is repression. I've seen this on twitter as someone will attack a group because they see something say online and they really hot and then when evidence comes site that that was not the whole story they just grew quiet this ignore and they move on so there's no referee there's just repression That's still you know an an advance but it's but it's not. It's not healthy. Yeah I've seen that lewd loads of examples but on on on social media where people pile on some individual because they seem like they're all bad and then evidence comes out that that actually the person who was being treated badly actually maybe the victim of eve- things like Johnny Depp. Thing and stuff like that. I know much about it. But there's examples where people are being piled on Jewison to those recordings I did. Yeah that's fascinating fascinating. So that's a good example of this there's Louis examples But a lot of people just quiet on that but the what. I'm always impressed with are the ones who who seek reparation. They feel the guilt. They seek the reputation they send you a ladder and they go and they're not even saying we think you're right there just I guess it's more complicated that's it. Yeah that's it that's all because that's the truth. The truth is is it's complicated. Yeah what I've noticed too is the Reparations are a great thing to see or like it it feels good when you sort of see people like it's having we have either certain amount of faith in our audience that I think was shaken by the everything by the fallout. That happened Even though none of it should have been surprising way. Everything went down was not super surprising but The damage that's done during the paranoid schizophrenic. Free phase is in my experience not The damage is done like it doesn't. It's not like the reparations. All I mean. Of course it's like immediate not forget. Forget as might be the right word. It's sounds a little uppity to say that but but that is part of it. Yeah the depressing. Yeah but the the the effects of the cumulative and overwhelming phase and just the the the stress of that I think has affected me as somebody who processes things pretty quickly way more than I realize to the point that it's not the reparations are beautiful thing to see and they're very nice but it doesn't outweigh the damage. That's done which I think is. The is the fear with the culture that we're living in right now where everyone is. Everyone is so ready to jump down everybody's throats for everything Especially politically and this year. I think is going to get worse and worse as we move on. Especially if burning ends up getting the nomination it's going to become just haywire because it's going to be two extremes fighting rather than like a moderate not conservative when rather than my my Tear my very unpopular. Altaic which is the rest of them are just new liberal so it's Choosen near the Democrats and the Republicans. No difference really for me. He's the the auto different whether you like him or not. As the only one is not new liberal. But I'm glad to hear you say that. Yeah that's very true so anyway. Yeah the it's been a very interesting transition going. Seeing the wave of people change. But then you know it's basically just hurt feeling it's just a slicking your wounds and then having to maintain a sense of self while you're being verbally annihilated and then rely on the logic of going. I know I know what this is like. I know that and I would feel the same way like if if I saw from the outside and I was intrinsically attached to a certain version of people. Then yeah it's would be tr- truly traumatized people and the difficulty isn't the difficult situation. You hard was that in a way. You can't do business as usual. Because by definition that rupture within the grip is going to cause anxiety within a lot of the audience and it's going to cause a lot of issues and so just going on business as usual. It's you're not going to be able to it just didn't work didn't work account account mortgage has to be addressed and and then one you have to try and figure out hoity live in the aftermath of and it's on it's difficult and you're saying you're kind of in the you're still getting up to hide a Haida move all. Yeah it's It's like a married couple that Obviously there's the divorce analogy which works really. Well it's a relationship in that particular instance. It's almost like the the married couple. The woman is married to a man who is a raging alcoholic and she's put up with his alcoholism for twenty five years and she just wants him to stop drinking and then when he actually does stop drinking then all the sudden she they don't she doesn't have the thing to point to to blame for problems anymore and so Then they have to learn how to be an actual couple and see if they even like each other and so that's kind of. It's a similar thing of going. Okay well now we have to figure out like what this is because it's something new and it's something different and it's also coupled with what at the very time we need something new and different and to find out what that is. It's the exact same time that we are the most wounded by the situation. And so it's a. It's just typical lifestyle. Of course it has to happen when things are going. Great it's easy to be like. Here's a new thing and then when it's not it's like Oh yeah I've only if only I wasn't feeling this way then you find that one thing to blame which kind of I guess goes back to. What you're talking about with the paranoid schizophrenia. Like it's in all of us to just go this thing. If this other thing if this other person of this other element if I was only this then everything will be great. But I also know that's not necessarily what you're on the on the but knew that dot is very connected and I'm an also this is a grid Kind of event for Phuc because it is a learning experience for everyone including the audience. It's like high because we all have to navigate. How do you break up on Haiti? Cope with ambiguity Hideyuki with anxiety. Heidi you know because a lot of I've just discovered talk And I discovered it. 'cause Bari Bari. He was looking at one day and I said what is Tech Talk. As it's very addictive I went onto it on. Oh my goodness it's very addictive. I'm haven't figured out why it's addictive yet. But it's addictive. It's so weird man and so weird never would've suspected that it would be the thing that takes off. Yeah I know but but I was watching. I was last night I was watching house. Goodness flicking from one thing to the other and why was I mentioned? Tick Tock Because it was a point I was going to make a bite Who was that? If by tendency here I can I want you to. I want to know you. Yeah we'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA win even if it's three hours L. listen cycle. It's a great time for valley because there's a and then like tick tock. Oh yes. Great Time for Volley for we all learn argued. We'll I think maybe I was GonNa think that tech talk is so aspiration it's like it's like instagram on steroids It's a very. I was thinking for a young generation that have a lot of anxiety What these tech talks are showing or these people who you're dancing and having fun having grit lives often we are very wealthy palaces. These young people who are very beautiful. And how these beautiful homes and you know I can understand why people just grasp onto that. It's like a pure kind of thing. But there's a point when we have to navigate Acuity and actually Watson gone on valley folk. That's been happening with your happy. And it's Kinda of cool and you know there's There's some things you've done with. The volley cost which have talked about not various. She brought it up and instead of just avoiding in and trying to be like tech talk and trying to Kinda like just business as usual to some high one is integrated by talking about up but then on. Here's the next challenge is how to integrate it into the comedy as well. Is there a different type of comedy? That's GONNA come to the valley folk. There's not directly connected to this but addresses more ambivalent. That's what I'm hoping for. Yeah I think Where we're at now. I mean there's a reason I talk about it in 'em talking about on this podcast not valid asks. It's also like we don't want to address it constantly and make it a thing but it is integral to who we are as people and as performers slash quote unquote artists. Whatever you want. So that part is just a a reality and we know at this point that we have to be not have to get to be very transparent with people and that's a really beautiful thing The comedy part. I can't wait for like so excited about that. Because not necessarily until you guys started to call me either. Goodness yeah. We're getting and we're starting to have fun again which is great but It is it. It's all fine like it even in the The worst parts like as of a like a week two weeks ago maybe a week ago It was everyone was very in the dark. But they say a night is darkest just before dawn and It's all of a sudden like this past week. Has Been Fantastic. And so it's it all seems to be fine and I think that's what I was betting on But who knows. I don't know you know and the other thing by way I don't know if because you're the youtube culture guy about is there are more and more youtubers who are dealing with the complexities life. A bit more. Like Renton Link. Usa are literally there tolkien about their past. They're talking about their religious pass. Their tried to you know maybe rejected it and created wrestling with with all of that. I'm also thinking h three h three. You know they have often on stuff by being almost about depression difficult things. Oh Yeah and then Even a very good British Youtuber Jack met I like a lot but he is pretty real So on on these are massive youtubers. Who are doing this and assist on it as well. Actually at the Chris has been talking about this kind of the honesty of difficulties might be in a youtube excetera so on. So there's a plan for that within the grew and maturing youtube contact. Yeah there is. It's growing with the audience and And sometimes your head and sometimes you're behind which is which happens a lot. Sometimes it's like people who are in the suburb at somebody was saying you know about a business thing that happened Which business that word has such a sterile Almost greedy connotation to it sometimes or always business. But it's like it. Can it can be tied to who you are as a person and so it's like to say business or do we did it for this reason. This reason it can make. It seem so much simpler than what it is because the reality is that if we are doing stuff on youtube it's not just businesses never justify it was never it was never that it wasn't intended to be a business it was supposed to be Friends hanging out and then stopping that we were like well. If this is dishonest. We're GONNA fix it and we're going to go from there and see what happens and if it breaks permanently then permanently and that's okay like it's not the end of the world but anyway we're we're getting off into my my ramblings right now he'll do. I think all of that is just a really good as I said like an object lesson hiatus works because the other example of course is relationships. I I have a friend who kind of navigating a brick up. I was talking to her a couple of days ago. And we you know she was going through the Berry common steerage of kind of a I kind of paranoid schizoid to a certain extent of Google. And like this person. Who's wrong? I'm right because I see my perspective. I don't I think they're acting immature early. Then move into the point of the day we're communicating. Actually she's very good. She actually communicated so she wasn't really in a paranoid schizoid position but she was communicating with him and finding that he has a position as well on even if she doesn't fully agree without position of going. Okay there's A. There's the poorest in this here. It's not a pure culture of this pure here and talks toxicity. Here it's like okay. We have to navigate the fact that it's hard to say all the blame is on one side and not the other. So you know it's it's a similar thing with breakup. Just having a con- we get to the point where we can realize that that you most relationships it's not a clear. Yes someone's writing someone's wrong it's Yeah they're such an interesting like so there's this that perspective you can take where it's like. There's some people follow on twitter. Where they they say things about people who support trump that are like very repulsive and just like repugnant things to say about Other human beings that I don't think any of them no and then I signed onto facebook and I see the exact same thing from the other side but like I wonder if there's a relationship between the tendency for people to act like that people just to separate the world into goodies vs baddies also being tied to their own sense of of uncleanliness in their own set. Lake there almost There's people who are just they'll blame themselves to a fault and they'll make themselves be the the dirty like. I think I did that for awhile. I think I'd sort of played up this Not Bad boy but like degenerate persona and I think I was running from the peer image that I had when I was in source. And so then it's but it was never that it was never that. I was just this guy who was an effing a crazy stuff and so it's like an interesting. It's like I turned myself in into even doing this. Special Holy Shit was basically going out out. I will say enough that you can look to me as being almost scapegoat or almost the the the sacrificial lamb going look at how bad I am. We'll get out terrible. It was awful. These things got But that was also kind of inaccurate. Because it wasn't like I wasn't a bad person. I wasn't this horrible degenerate. I wonder if there's some people who if they really feed eating they feel when they push people out or that they themselves feel better about themselves and so because they're trying to make themselves feel better. Is that what the the exchanges like it by make by relegating? I think that's the right word people into this dirt pile. Yeah I myself can feel better and can feel like I'm not in any. I have no dirt so well. That's absolutely true. But then what you're talking about with the WHO who the shipped her is then. They is a y'all did I say. Oh yeah which is the role belter. the I think you could describe it if we want to use the Melanie Klein. Freedom which I think is useful for this conversation you could say that is the an early experience of the depressive position which is exactly what you're saying which is the early stage of the depressive position is worse than you feel performing guilt. You realize that the okay. I put everything on someone else boop. You're kind of masochistic -ly kind of like experience your room for fines. Kind of like a implication in the problem so for example in marriage or whatever the Yugo I'm part of this in fact maybe I'm even a big part of it and I am an asshole on the earth. You could say that's kind of an early expression of the depressive position. That's a real advance. An actually you have to go through that to get to the point where you get beyond not beyond the depressive position but beyond that early stage yeah and so actually what you were doing a very positive thing. Which is you know. I've you know experiencing your own guilt expressing it not repressing but expressing them. Potentially doing some form of reparation even if it's just in the form of making it into comedy expressing at which is a type of apology. And it's a type of apology to the world And Data Loyd you potentially to get to a healthier. Please feel better. Yeah I go back and forth on it because I made such a conscious and drastic choice to be incredibly open about basically everything and I've noticed over the past year I just stopped doing that period. I don't really tweet very much. I don't express my political views very much. I very Like timid with it and then that coupled with obviously the fallout sort of cemented. That where it's like now. I'm having to go back out and be like. Oh Yeah it's it's still okay for me to be as open as I wanna be but I won't be as open as I was probably ever again. I'm totally fine with that. It's like I did it fine But now it's sort of like a shadow that I'm like. Are you know guessing that you needed to do like that was your that was your kind of bringing in like the purity culture like you mentioned? It's it's the skip. Goodness appreciate. It's putting the dirt over there On then what you're doing is you're then hold on. I'm dirty. I'm I'm the tax collector. I'm whatever and then in doing the hop on basically saying sorry for that Them you're able to have basically will be called the kind of an integration of the reality principle you you knew the reality that the whole thing was messy there's no easy goody goody Zimbabwe's you've gone on you're able you're able to integrate into your life and therefore you're in a different place now the only thing because it's not stages as positions. It means. This might happen again in your life or in my life. You know. We can't sit back and go NI- Dung I've done but you've kind of gone through dot fierce dot cycle. You've come a much better place of a degree. Yeah I mean. I know that you can even feel the the paranoid schizophrenic stuff. Just I mean. Social media creates a immediately. Because it's so easy to read a headline even just a Hashtag and it's like there's no it lights up that emotion and then all of a sudden it's like you're argues and then you're like. Oh wait. No Oh crap. Should I not do that? I shouldn't tweet and then yeah and it's unexpressed fringy. Yeah but for me. And it's an expression of triaging Zayed and a contemporary world would so there's real anxiety. This is what I'm looking at actually at my festival and may not a plug. But that's this is just a blogger. But but what I WANNA do we. There's a genuine anxiety on genuine alien nation and society. I dot needs to be uncovered and not needs to be looked up but wellness displaced Dan it becomes the paranoid schizoid position so on twitter. Because there's genuine it's then put onto another He ever the author is Republicans are immigrants or Auntie exit. Yeah my new Joe Can stand up is I've talked about projection and it's when you take all your anxieties and you just put them onto another person. It's like the Democratic Party of Defense mechanisms in people laugh at that. That's very good. I was thinking I wonder if you could do version we say projection. That's where you take all of the terrible stuff and you project onto might. That's the ED now. My Dad suffers from this. Of course dad does laugh like was people but it was one of those laugh. That's like high. Get the joke about like. Do you ever see your Lee. When he he made this really smart joke and people collapsed and he says he says I finally become the type of comedian where I tell a joke and nobody laughs. But they KLOPP. He's great. Yeah very good. I WANNA see your new stuff. Mind I'd like to see this up on the roof. Yeah it's getting it's getting there. Is it mostly news? A half and half ORC. Half and half I'd like to do you do not live stuff here in. La Doing Washington DC April third and fourth tickets below. That I saw on your instagram story. Put up somebody bought a ticket and it's like you got one one. You sold one beer. That's usually a works to. Yeah it's so weird 'cause I yeah I follow I put like bit links and I can see the amount of clicks that gets They can't see how many people are actually buying tickets to click on the link. So and then I just play a guessing game but the reality is that I can always just email my agent and be like. How many tickets have we sold? And they actually have a database. That could log into independently. But I choose not to do that because it gives me anxiety. I never lied. I never looked up many books I've sold by it's by. It's completed weirdly indifferent. I knew it's either going to be. That's definitely not a lot because I knew that by big royalty chess so I just go. It's probably very much but that's all right. You know yeah. I think I'd be curious in how much you've you've sold. I should check. What do you think the guess is? I would say You know the books and the first year maybe ten thousand so pretty good man. I don't know if that's not accurate. It's not it's not the secret. Yeah no that's true. Well it is but but not selling like a secret. Nobody wants the truth. Yes okay willow. So yeah well dot basically. That's the Oh yeah one thing I wanted to say. Yeah we have more more. Yeah no not much more. Maybe because we can go on for a while but the thing I was going to say was Oh yeah what is it a bike contemporary society. That means that we're very proven to this proliferation of new purity cultures. Yeah that's the thing there is. I think there's an genuinely excited. Genuine Elian within society genuine kind of economic fierce genuine fears of genuine. Kind of underemployment being alienated from Your Employment. Having to work in a job that you don't really have any investment in all of these issues that are there and so the conditions are ripe for generating paranoid schizoid a kind of communities so the issue today is high do we create environments dot in encourage the depressive position. Yeah that's what I think. The fundamentalist is I think partly what our podcast is. A bite is a bite trying to help just in like a little drop in the ocean but to try to bring the depressive position it kind of two people to kind of like help people be more cognizant of high they can be drawn into new purity cultures and high they can try to have more ambivalence in their life and ultimately what. I would like to do with the fundamentalists over the next couple of years we really expose. While the tree alien nation the tree antagonisms Within Society. Really are yeah. Why is it that I want to know who the next Hitler is why you like? Why am I going? This guy's just just like Hitler like what what in me is desiring for there to be another Hiller yes yes is the difference between thinking. Maybe one's GonNa come along and wanting one million vast constantly on the lookout pair. Oh my God there's the which also can happen because the other thing that we're not really talking about is when people just suck. Yeah like in how do you how do you deal with? How do you tell the difference between the paranoid schizophrenic tendency that you can have of other out there bad with the reality that in my opinion some people just the worst? So it's like you can't sometimes when that happens. It's even more tragic because if you can get to a place where you can see him beauity and then you could still just go Nanao. No yeah blurred have okay Yeah I think I think the difference is much too differences. One of the differences is even when you see someone who is very bad. You know he's potentially got an extreme purity culture thing going whether they're right or left right they've got. They've got their anime the scapegoat. They've got who's pure and good. They're causing problems in the world. There's a certain extent to which if they if they are a big figure. They're still a question of why are they big? Why why? Why am I participated in the society that January? It's not on my part of that is there's something about my position that Ochsner fuel stop position. do those questions show that you're in a depressive position right so you're so even when you're confronted by someone who you for empirical reasons think as is Bob for society you're still asking. Oh is there something about me or the community? That I'm part of that Oxley feels this. That generates is there. What can I do to bring a little bit of impurity into the purity culture? What can I do to kind of be the prophet because in religion is the prophet? He questions the purity culture. It's Kinda the priest who protects the purity culture because purity cultures are they start off as good thereby cleaning your hands by washing. Onnell's doing all these things that are actually useful for stopping the spread of disease or Peterson. Keep your own house lane before. Yeah Clean Your Room. There's an extreme kind of interesting purity thing going on the air but But there's a there's just you heard about the all I know yes crazy. Yeah yeah lots of talk about their But yet so there's the there's the purity culture which has lots of good but then it becomes too pure and then the prophet comes in and they dirty up the water. They get the poll and they they put a stick a squirrel a stick in the dark at the bottom of the pond comes up and you realize oh. The pond is its poorest. There's DART on cleanliness. And so that's one thing is can we can we kind of productively critique purity culture in a way that's beneficial and secondly the paranoid dimension of the power to get sick schizoid is that you knew you're paranoid Louis new? You're paranoid one. News they encounter. Somebody's paranoid when evidence. It's not that evidence defines what they think. It's so what they think defines interpret the evidence. Yeah so a paranoid person is the bead million fast invested in anatomy like you're saying like the bullying at school. Who need someone to and they need someone on the difference between someone who just empirically looks at some tab and goes you had these people I think are not good and I'm open to being wrong and I'm open to talking to people about being wrong but I think it is bad on the person who is sued the beaten Italy invested and they're being anatomy that they'll just interpret all evidence to kind of solidify their position. Because I'm accents. I think so yet. Do you feel like there's a way to guide people out of the that world or even to not because that alone sounds self-defeating because basically I'm implying that you know other people are like this yes but breaking the world and say those people he break the World Ends You. People like me who understand ambiguity not like them or Yup. Yeah that's like that. It's like one of those philosophy one zero one will. There's skeptical of truth is outlawed the truth your scalp. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah it's agnostic and you know. How do you know that you can't know about that? Yes but I mean instance. My instant assuming you're in an instance where you can see it in someone or you yourself have seen it in yourself and remedied and you see that somebody else is still there because in my mind. I think about this especially with politics where it's like. I just want to agree with what they're saying. Minute thing is to go because I really popular talking point right now for for Republican people is to go. Well I don't I don't like trump as a person I think he's you know he's not a good person but I agree with him on policy level so vote for him because it was policies and my your ear the other way right one hundred percent the other the other way around yeah. I think he's a bit of a laugh. But I don't agree with politic hanging out with Marxist could be hilarious. I think he what he's doing with just being a complete maniac. Is I enjoy entertaining exactly. It's just his politics. I don't happen to with nothing I'm not trying to be. I'm not hating on the guy. I just don't agree with him politically but him as a person great and it's like I don't know I don't know the the reason I I like thinking about that or saying that is because it feels like even that there is something that's GonNa light up in the trump supporter. Who just is like? Yeah that is kind of where like I don't really know anything about his policies. They do just like him symbolically as this. This big figure. Who's just absorbing all this hatred? That's like the Bill Hicks Joke. It wasn't like he was Everyone's for the trips but against the war and he says I'm called virtually for the war and against the tree but this one's more right now to be honest that's my again. I don't think there's much of a difference between the Democratic Party trump at all in terms of policies. Pretty much Yeah anyway but I won't get different BONK. Absolutely maybe ST politics lose everybody. Yeah Great Yeah. That's definitely one thing I've learned about. My political views is that I don't know I don't I know enough to beat the interest to be dater. I know that I can. I know I really disagree with pretty much. Everybody so in some way but Yeah I think the purity culture that is defining the left right now And then having their heads up their own butts little is creating the very thing that they are. Protesting held contributing to at least and really. The only way that gets fixed is a because we can learn from religion is that it's when a figure comes out of the religion decorative culture so basically not not a not an infidel infidel as someone who is in the other religion. Yeah heretic a heretic. Is someone within the religion so you need to heretic beauty. But he comes from within and respects the position but as able to question the purity culture knock at killed while they're doing which is difficult today. Yeah I'm very glad that I grew up conservative. I'm very glad that I grew up. Kind of Republican. Yeah I like that I like I feel bad for people who are who grew up liberal and have always been anybody who grows up in the same political mindset and then stays there. I don't feel slightly. I'm like what a bummer. Yeah it's more. I think it's more exciting thing to kind of. I realize I'm about to vote in the primaries and I've voted as Republican Libertarian and a Democrat. My pendulum just went and But it's cool because I I like that. I like the fact that it's been that shift and when you don't have that shift then I think you have a very difficult time understanding where the other people are coming from because you've never entered into it. I think it's I think generally it's it's really can be advantageous to grew up in Anne grip that is outside of the elites of any kind. So whether it's you know a philosophy that you're growing up outside of where the philosophical kind of heartland are or if you're grew up in a religiously very conservative thing maybe a Jehovah's witness there's only because you're constantly having to define yourself against the dome system and that can when you get to a certain age provide you with very interesting interesting insights so cs. Lewis a good example like he just. He was obsessed with the scholastic period of of philosophy and a Nike. I did my degree in scholastic philosophy and is kind of cool to just immerse yourself in the scholastic tradition because it Sou- out of sync with the contemporary modern world. That it can actually help you see things in the modern world up. Yeah you wouldn't if you weren't out of sync with a so. Yeah there's there's there's something to say for that this has been a good episode p Oem One thing you mentioned as well which we kind of touched on is a high. Do WE MINIMIZE. How do we minimize this paranoid? Schizoid say some the way diabetes and we can clues only. I wanted to say. Well this could be the Acquai- let's do the takeaway so you do your takeaway. Yeah okay so my takeaway is the way potentially to address the paranoid schizoid. Position is one to try to uncover the anxiety. Creates up. So you won't do judgment like don't like we all or in the biggest biggest judge because if what you want to do is understand understand. What's that lies behind? A understand is well understand the position. Understand what's happening. And what's going on and have a grease yourself and those things individually can help you get into the depressive position but even culturally. If we're a little bit like that up we can find out how to do that at a cultural level. Maybe maybe we can stop this schizoid splitting that. We're seeing epidemic because otherwise oh my goodness it just ends up in war ultimately ends up in bloody conflict. I was talking to my brother on the way here. We're getting caught up and we were talking a little bit about just the this is. This is getting worse. Like the divide is is getting more and more contrast and it's It's so crazy to see it in real time and as we move forward and just seeing the complete disconnect that everybody has ourselves included. It's like Oh something's going to something either has to break or we're going to shift some stuff and start talking to one another and you knew what happens right when it gets worse. So we're talking about paranoid schizoid position purely culturally but what will happen is people who are paranoid schizoid. In terms of their personality individuals. They will start to do violence against the opposition so what will begin to see is just the extremes on say the liberal and the conservative stations. The extremes will start to do violence attacking the opposition. We already see a little bit of a because those are the canaries in the mine so there are people who genuinely have mental health issues. But what they're doing is they're expressing the the cultural condition that was within their their Their grip yeah. I was doing the classic we would do this live together we switch between CNN and Fox News to sort of see. The difference and I switched to Fox News the other day and it was like they were like. We're the only news station reporting the story about a Loss liberal person crashing their car into a trump damage. Not Yeah Yeah. And that's interesting because there were there right. I didn't hear about it on CNN. But then when I turned to Fox there's using it as an example of looking at how bad these people are and it's like okay but it is those extremes coming out one another and then and then that when that extreme happens on the other side then you look at how crazy those people are. You're not that's not helping. Yes they'll help you. That's that's a symptom. News extreme rag are a symptom of something? That's boiling boy in boiling. And Yeah we need more. I think Youtube is going to be important to this. Is like so many millions of people watch as good youtubers able to show on business and be able to kind of show nuance So I gotta get to work so you gotta gotTa worth well. Thank you very much pete. This has been fun in in terms of takeaway for me Yeah I WANNA keep. We'll keep talking about this in some way or another but it's just a scary. Might be the wrong word. It's it's but I think it might be the it's the right way. It's a little scary right now. And I think that the being non-judgmental being a truly seeking data and information And being open to change is like the only thing you can do apart from alcohol and Drugs Not Alcohol Disgusting Thank You. Thanks everybody by.

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Episode 143  Azure Pipelines

The 6 Figure Developer Podcast

31:37 min | 7 months ago

Episode 143 Azure Pipelines

"Name Hello and welcome to the six figure developer. Podcast the podcast where we talked about new and exciting Technologies Professional Development Clean Code career advancement and more. I'm John Calloway. I'm Clayton Hunt and I'M GONNA Today. We'll be talking about building. Cic De Pipelines with azure pipelines Ash. What is a pipeline? So yeah I think I mean it's basically it's pretty simple. It's it's a chain of repeatable. Actions tasks the transform basically some input into some other output. So I just wanted to get started with some basic definitions for from a developer perspective. I think you can think of it. Like function a function change. So looking at the pipeline. There's really kind of two types of pipelines. There's probably maybe some more. But the two types of one focus on today is like bill pipeline risk released pipeline so the bill pipeline basically. Your input is going to be your source code. And it's GonNa Produce Your the deployable artifacts it might also do some verifications using like unit testing or Lintang or static analysis. Something like that to check weather. Whether it's a good set of artifacts that are that are built and then we could reject those things but those aren't really that necessary by definition but is what makes it good. Okay and what do you mean by artifacts in in those descriptions? Yeah so usually this would be whatever is necessary to deploy the application. So the executing executing bits of the application are usually what we will be producing in the deployment artifacts but You know if it's Say A docker bill pipeline than it's going to be the actual docker container so the entire environment would be actually coming out of that bill pipeline. So it's it's the result of the build. Step then correct. Yeah those that are necessary to take. It's the sort of thing that comes out of that. Okay and then. The released pipeline usually takes in those deployable artifacts and it produces deployed environments. And so there's a lot of different ways that it could do that. It could do that. Basically by actually like killing the whatever that environment was completely tearing down building. It up like we're talking about Tear form the other day where this released by might use a tear form template to like create the environment and then use some other things to actually deploy the application onto it right so that may be part of that released pipeline and more complex scenario but it may be as simple as taking environment. That's already out there and just swapping out some bits. That are running the main pieces that you're taking some deployable artifacts execute will bits right and we're getting them out there and we're changing the state of one of the environments from an old version two new version and there are some additional words indefinite that we might WanNa cover as well like continuous integration and continuous delivery. Do you want to take a few minutes and discuss those? Yeah sure so. Continuous integration is really the practice of merging smaller batches of changes that that the developers are making into a main branch sort of continuously instead of basically doing that. All at the end of a development cycle so a lot of people by a stretch of the word continuous integration are probably following this practice but then maybe some people are still doing it where everyone has like big merge changes right at the very end of that cycle but the obviously the the smaller you can make those batches the better. It's going to be a better. It's going to be This is obviously facilitated highly by good bill pipeline. The more you can easily you can check in changes in those get automatically merged into your code and built and Chech- tested whether that's good in the integrated branch that that makes it very good and often times if you hear someone talking about like a pipeline usually talking about a bill pipeline so those terms sort of kind of get conflated. I don't think it's a bad thing. Necessarily but continuous integration is different than a build pollen but the two are very strongly linked in continuous delivery. Cd is the process of automating. The delivery of the deployment of those artifacts as soon as that artifact created so it doesn't mean that the environment that it's being deployed to is is production necessarily but as basically the process of saying. Okay we're GONNA take this artifact and we're going to automatically deploy it and this is obviously need. A good release pipeline is necessary to make automated where you need to be able to have take those deployments as soon as they're created and then get them out into an environment and again like if you heard people say a CD pipeline. They're usually talking about a release pipeline. Although those two terms the one can use delivery is really talking about the practice of it versus the releases really like just the release pipeline and so a lot of times see a continuous integration and continuous delivery are brought together. And that's what we talk about and we again we use the term. Cd Pipeline to sort of like talk about these two pipelines. Change together where we have. The build is completely picking up the source code and it's creating deployment bits and as soon as the deployment pits kicks into the CD and the CD puts it into a deployed environment. There's also the term continuous deployment. How does that differ from continuous delivery? It's pretty similar and very related and it's unfortunately also a C. D. So it gets confused often but this is really basically when we're talking about continuous deployment. We're talking about the practice of continuing continuous delivery. Continuous delivery every environment so we might have continuous delivery to say staging but then if we then take all of these staging and stabilize or integration environments and then a Qa environments and then you environments and then production environments right We might like if we chain all those together and make make make it so that the whole thing flows continuously and the artifacts goes from one of our to the next automatically and hitting each of our men may have like different tests or integration tests or like automatic gates that need to like it needs to achieve in order to move onto the next one but basically getting that that automatically deployed into production. That's continuous deployment. Where you're able to kind of chain. All these continuous delivery things together so continuous deployment is continuous. Delivery but continuous delivery is not necessarily continuous deployment. In all of these terms are fairly generic terms in that. They're not specific to Azure or aws or any particular discipline right. So what if we start talking about azure pipelines in the Azure devops suite of tools? So there's obviously a bunch of different suite of tools. Inside of Azure devops as pipelines as one of them One other one that I tend to use is as a repos in in conjunction. I think it's kind of closely matched to azure pipelines but there's a lot of alternatives to that get hub and bit bucket and get lab and all of those and Azure pipelines itself. Can basically it can connect up to most most repos that are out there so it's not really limited or doesn't have to be you don't entirely have to be working inside of the devops sweet to us as your pipeline as pipelines sort of separately from any of the other tools that are in the suite. So that's pretty cool and then the other thing is you don't have to necessarily be inside of Azure to can deploy to just about any environment but I I personally think that one of the biggest compelling reasons to be using azure pipelines is great integration with as your devops Repo. So if you're like a business is already using Azure devops for your task management or something like that you can use repos for your repo management as pipelines. Integrates well into that? And if you're using Azure to run your applications that's even better because Adra pipelines is definitely well integrated into azure being able to deploy into azure environments. Again you can deploy into just about any environment. But it's the integration into Azure is excellent and that there's a couple other things supports muscles languages. You get. So there's there's idea of the jobs or sort of that need to be run and you can use your own hosted agents which I think you have to pay for microsof- A small smaller fee for for doing that. But it's a little bit cheaper if you wanted to run your own but then you can also pay for Microsoft's hosted agents open source projects. Get those free. And they get ten parallel basically agents that they can run so they can run ten payroll jobs and unlimited minutes. And I think that there maybe even saying that if you needed more you could probably talk to them or something like that but and then the for for the chlor stuff for companies and whatnot. You get one for free so if you if you're just looking to play around with it or whatever there's really nothing there stopping you to be able to like test out. Azra pipelines is the is the free agent for close sources that is that also unlimited minutes or. Is there a cap on those you know? There may be a cap on the minutes. I don't know I don't remember exactly last time. I checked there was a cap but it was pretty high and yeah no that is something like fifteen hundred minutes or something to the effect of For for most of the projects that I've worked on we weren't GonNa hit in less We scaled up our our teams drastically in started really hammering hard. I typically work with a smaller team smaller companies where we don't have dedicated devops engineers. We don't have dedicated infrastructure people so typically kind of take on the mantle of setting up. The building released pipelines. And doing all that. So I started with the the services in team foundation server on Prem and and setting up the build agents there and found even though those few years ago the tools allowed for getting to a successful state really really quickly and continuing to work with Azure devops in the cloud and Azure pipelines in the cloud. They continue to get better and better. Yeah no I would agree with that one hundred percent one one little sort of Gotcha that I wouldn't would point out is the first agent is free and while this will pretty much for a small team. That's probably be perfect for you. The moment you start to like expand out You have to pay for that first agent if you WANNA buy a second one so it is free it is free until you buy a second one then you have to pay for both it. Isn't it so but that being said like it isn't a huge cost. And if you really want to if you wanted to optimize your cost but not your time time spent right like you probably could build your do your own agents but the Microsoft agents. I've found to be sort of just worth it to buy the the hosted ones and use what they have and they keep the tooling up to date on those agent's pretty frequently. I know that as soon as the As soon as dot net core three came out and I wanted to start utilizing some of that it was not yet available on the agents but there were numerous blog posts in in documents sites explaining how to install dot net core three on the agent so that you can continue working. Yep So let's say I'm working for a company and we've got some code. And we've been thinking about all the bills and deployments or manual right. Now we've been thinking about moving those to some kind of Bill Pipeline Is there is there anything that we have to do before we can do that? Or can we just dive right in and just plug and play and our done for the most part? I mean you could sort go plug and play but I think you might find yourself painting yourself into some corners or potentially sort of creating some external hardships for yourself. I would highly recommend you consider sort of branching strategy. You're using these sort of recommended. One is following some sort of trunk based strategy in this sort of where the team is sharing a single trunk. We call that master or you can call it whatever you want. But that all of the development basically gets worked off of so a very small team you might be committing directly to master. Maybe pair programming or a single person developing. There's really no need to make other branches but in a larger team you're probably doing topic ranches or feature branches or something like that off of master but they're all coming back into massar sort of continuously integrating back into master. Does something like get flow introduce another level of complexity than yeah so so something like get flow isn't a trunk based because it's sharing multiple trunks right? Yeah so you have a development that's going on but then there's a branch for every environment you're willing to go into and you could certainly build a pipeline that worked for that wherever it looked off of every single branch or whatever and sort of built the report the environment but there's extra complexity and it it's like you're not building your so the thing one of the biggest things is you're not pushing the same artifacts into the into each eight h environment. That's probably the biggest reason. So because you're rebuilding and you're having to take the code. That was changed emerging that into each branch. Theoretically should be the same. But it's possible. That could be different. You're just adding an extra of change that could be in there and then dealing with like hot fixes and other issues can become more complex In the way that you're dealing with get and it's just a little bit simpler to keep everything on on master and then I recommend using the one. The one that I sort of implement is a version of release flow is what it's called. Microsoft uses this to do to develop as devops actually and the workflows are nicely. Built into Azure devops. So if you if you are using that and what this basically does is whenever you're ready to create a release you you pick the commit off of master and then you just sort of branch or release off of that commit you theoretically could use that same. Build the first one. Maybe it could be just the tag but if you needed to do any like testing you could you could basically take that release and then test that one and if there was bug fixes or something like that that you wanted only in that release you would still do that work on master but you would cherry pick it from master onto that release branch and that way you could release just those bug fixes without having to do any of the other work. That's may be continuously continue continuing to be done on master. What about for creating? Ah Bill Pipeline. How do we get started? So the first one you progress probably going to need to build create the bill pipeline. Because otherwise you're doing manual builds and pushing that into a folder somewhere and so there are really two different ways. The recommended one is to to basically go gamble route. Gammel configuration route But there's also a classic mode the classic mode pro. John you probably remember. It's very similar to like what. Vs Use used to have we sort of have the drag and drop in figuration and you pull in the task and whatnot. So it's very similar to that and I recommend it for people or maybe just getting started. And you're you're not ready to like dive into the full. Yemo configuration and read that what you can do is create the pipelines with classic mode. And then there's a nice lake show Yambol and it will actually give you you. Can you can fill out all the like the the tools and whatnot and then it will actually give you the exact angle that you need. You can copy and paste that and put that into your source code and then rebuild a new version off of that not a way to sort of get started down that path. Yeah that's that's exactly how I got started getting familiar. With the tax for the build pipelines is going through the classic editor and seeing what produced and then building out from there. Yup So some of the things that are in the value of having the whole in the classic editor is so most of the time once you get the the bill pipeline up and running. It's good but like let's say we add something to our application that now needs. We need to build. So it's something new that needs to get built and so we need to modify bill pipeline because otherwise that new thing that we just had it isn't going to get billed so we're we're adding that feature branches in our source code but our pipeline doesn't know anything about and if it is stored in classic it's stored externally tour source code but if it's stored in the animal than we can take and we can actually build as we add those features in that need to be built. We can update the pipeline configuration to build those features in them in there so it sort of like the pipeline comes along with the code and they stay current because they're in the same place where they can stay current so the sort of concepts that you need in order to begin building a pipeline. There's there's several different main ones and there you're gonNA need to spatially define a trigger you have to have to create jobs. You'll have jobs that you'll need to create. They'll be steps inside of those jobs and they'll be tasks that we inside of that step collection. Those are sort of like the the main key components for for the triggers. The recommendation would be that you would based off of whatever branch so probably like every time something. It's changed and master but you could exclude. Maybe certain files or folders in that in that branch so there might be something that we don't we want to alter but we don't want that to trigger a change. You could add that in there but then you can also do things that are time based and generally speaking for like a continuous integration. That you're not gonNA use the time base trigger. You want to use it. When the code changes when the coaches we wanted to create a build. And that's sort of the trigger. You WanNA use the jobs. Basically this is where you are setting up what agent. You might need to to run this task on whether you're needing to build so like if we're going to deploy Ron Dot net core and and Lennox will know we need to build it on a Lennox Environment. We can't build it on windows environment but you know if we're going to run it on build on windows and we'd probably want to build on a windows environment. Those sorts of things jobs can also be set in parallel. So let's say we have an API and a Ui but we build those separately so we don't have to like wait for the API to finish while the U. is is working. We could build those in parallel and so we could split those out into jobs and jobs have their own copies of source code and they have their own copies of the variables that are in the in the the steps. Setzer just basically an overall collection. There's not much to that. It's just it's just the collection of things it's a it's often any any one of these things can be templates and just basically there to give you the opportunity to to wrap up a bunch of steps in a single collection each step. That's a step is really task and a task as a step step is a task. We kind of switch terms here but the tasks are basically you can get. There's a ton of tasks and this is really weird. The heart of your bill pipeline is. There's a ton of tasks that are pre made for you all available in like from Azure devops crown If you need some sort of custom task That needs to be done But this this might be like building and pushing a doctor image might be like doing a dot net nougat restore on a on something or doing a dot net publish dot net push publishing their artifacts. Etcetera it's going to depend on. What whatever building. So what about? Moving onto creating released pipeline. Because you initially said that the build and the release pipelines are different. So how do they differ? Where we started with the release pipelines? Yeah so when that Bill Pipelines finishing? Hopefully it's publishing. Some sort of set of artifacts deployable dependencies the released pipelines The way that the way that you would sort of create that today they're really only has one and say only in scare quotes and released in scare quotes only what released method of creating a released pipeline is basically following this classical the classic method. It's all basically drag and drop. Ui where you specify the artifacts you define a release trigger so this is like this is the trigger. That's going to trigger the release but then each there are stages inside of the release and each stage. Probably like really likens to an environment and so you might create the release but not deployed anything and so this is a initially when I was working on the and learning them. This kind of confused me. I was like I wanted to create a Li release created the release but then nothing. Nothing happened even though I had to find stuff in my my stages so there are stage triggers and you might do this automatically or you might have stages depend on other stages like we wanted to play integration first before we deploy to Qa that sort of thing those can be manual in there and after that you can define Tasks inside of that stage which are basically the exact same tasks that you had in the bill pipelines. But now they're they're available here in their release pipelines generally speaking the types of tasks that you're going to be doing in the release are different than the types of tasks that you're doing in the bill but there's really not the task itself is. There's no difference so if you needed to do something if you need to do a more released type of task in the in build step you could do it and if you needed to build types task in a release you could do it. That would may not be recommended but there may be some weird configurations that are are necessary. Now there's a pre feature for multi-stage deployments that seems to be the combination of the two. Is that an inaccurate assessment or or at least sufficient explanation of what this is. Yeah that's a pretty good So this is this is where I think this is where Azra pipelines going. And this. This is why the heavy push to make us the Amel Configurations instead of The classic on the Bill Pipelines. But this is basically. We're taking where the the bill pipelines sort of like that pipeline and they're released pipelines are like that. Cd pipeline multi-stage are really like CIC pipelines. Right we're going to take we're gonNA bring all these things together and you. It is a pre release feature. So you have to. You have to enable it. On a preview features multi-stage Pipelines. But it is. It is pretty F- pretty pretty well featured and it is very well supported. There's a good documentation out there for it. We've been using it so it. It is not complete but I've been using it in our day to day stuff so it's good enough to to use and depend on and I think it is the direction that the pipelines are going. Are there any specific? Gotcha is that that you came across or any mindset changes that you had to make to move from this separate world of a build pipeline and released by blind into a multi-stage deployment. Yeah so the biggest one was you have stages all across the board Dow so generally speaking you where we didn't have stages in the build now the bill inside of its own stage right and so we have a stage and then we still have stages like we did in the releases and the stages still correspond to environments usually so we but we now have this extra stage which is like the build stage so that that was sort of like the first major shift but once you get inside of a stage it's pretty similar to exactly what we experienced before on both cases but the with the difference being the release doesn't give you that classic editor you have to basically use the camel so again if you WanNa play around with the classic releases releases you can still figure out what the is and then. Bring that into your multi-stage deployments nice thing. The Nice thing is that the release gets created earlier in the process in that it's getting created off of a single build and then the state it it it. It sort of gives a better picture of the idea that this build is really tied to this release and then that bill gets deployed into these other stages. And you wouldn't. You wouldn't actually have another a- build from another version from another build basically getting deployed into this releases stages so that was a nice mindset. It made it simpler for me but it means that if I need to make environment changes. I have to go rebuild the application. So when I when I when you check in environment changes or even changes to how I'm deploying those environments that's in the source code but that's going to get that's going to need require a whole re-build applications because they have to rebuild all the stages together so that was sort of Nice to have it separate but I think it's there is some tradeoff back and back and forth to have them combined versus separate ultimately I think I'd like it to having having combined and the few times that we have to rebuild the application. Just because we're doing a change of the is sort of like a small price to pay to have the overall simplicity of seeing everything together. You can rerun stages inside of inside of a stage but if you need to make a change you have to sort of whole new code. Code Push. Yeah I think this goes back to your earlier statement of having those conversations and really start planning out your brain strategies in in your repository strategies in 'em how the code relates to one another relates to itself within a repository. How it's going to be built how it's going to be released into different environments. Seems like all those are considerations on building up how to build and release through these pipelines. Absolutely absolutely so ash for anyone interested and setting up these pipelines or learning more about Something that they didn't already know about the pipelines Resources that they might use so in my opinion the best resources are the MS stocks They have a spot there for Azra pipelines and we can put the links in the in the description But they go into great detail they have to Tory rebels on how to basically set up pipelines and and playing around with them but they go until a lot of details as much as you want about any given intricacies of the steps and the jobs and creating variables and one of the things we haven't really talked about is version ing. How does version of the title of this but like helping you kind of figure those sorts of things out there? Emma socks are absolutely excellent on the trunk based development side there's trunk based development dot Com giving put that Lincoln in there but I think they do a great job at explaining what the Bene- what trunk based development is sort of what the benefit is at the very highest level without trying to create or force you into sort of branded release flow. Get flow get hub flow. There's several different sort of variance of the way that you create releases and you create sort of man man managed deployment of features and that sort of thing but they're trying to they're basically sort of boil it down to the bare minimum and then. Ms Stocks has again a great release flow article talking about how they do. Trung based development. How they SEP- set setup their releases. That's what I have found to be very very useful for myself and my teams and so I recommend people take a look at that article and of course dear listener. We'd love to hear from you if you have any of your own. Experiences to share with us about azure pipelines or any other questions comments concerns. We'd love to hear from you if you like this episode please like rate interview on. I tunes fine show notes blog posts and more at six figured dot com and be sure to follow us on twitter at six figure. Have this has been another episode of the six figure developer. Podcast hoping others research potential. I'm John Calloway. I'm Clayton and don't ask not.

Bill Pipelines Azure devops Cic De Pipelines John Calloway developer Microsoft Clayton Hunt editor Azra Yambol bill twitter Use Ms Stocks Chech Adra Lennox Environment
ALINGAWNGAW - TAGALOG FICTION STORIES | MGA KWENTONG MULTO

Stories Philippines Podcast

16:10 min | 3 months ago

ALINGAWNGAW - TAGALOG FICTION STORIES | MGA KWENTONG MULTO

"Task. ATER thanks for taking time to listen in our guest. We really appreciate it, and of course, this is not possible with our sponsor anchor. If like us at loves to tell stories should also start your own podcast and nothing else we could recommend but anger it's your one stop shop for hosting editing and distributing your brand new shiny podcast. You can even make money with anchor all that for free. There are lots of cool stuff in using anger including their brand new web based audio editor that you'll assure you love. So what are you waiting for try anger now and start sharing what you got go to anger that FM slash start to get started that's anchor that FM SLASH START I can't wait to hear your podcast is let us know when you do. We'll check it out. Doing on. Bush. On an Anna Guinea. nylons your Mamata. homeside namely. Long. Game Nagy sound by by. When we deal inside in Oban Young Gladstone malignly Dainik delenda Morelos Amalio. Deny. The among. 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Episode 153  GitHub Actions with Edward Thomson

The 6 Figure Developer Podcast

33:26 min | 4 months ago

Episode 153 GitHub Actions with Edward Thomson

"Name. In the six figure developer podcast podcast where we talk about new and exciting Technologies Professional Development Clean Code. Career, advancement and more I'm John Calloway I'm Clayton haunt. With us today is Edward Thompson. Edward is a developer tools nerd maintain of Liggett to the get library host of all things get the podcast about get and curator of developer tools weekly welcome Edward. Before we get started with meat of today's discussion why don't you tell us kind of how you got into the industry and I got to the point where you are today. Yeah. I fell into it in some sense. I was really I was really fortunate, so like growing up I was interested in computers and and building software. I ran a BS when I was when I was a teenager and so I I just kind of. You you know loved working on computers and and playing around writing little bits of software here and there to to. Explore. Software Development. And as I was active in the local BBC in the town, I grew up in. I got to know other people who were into that scene. Other programmers and I made a friend with another a high school student. His name was Keith Keith Wessel. and. Keith happen to have a job at the National Center for supercomputing applications so I grew up in in this. Small Town in Illinois Champaign Urbana, which happens to have a world class university, the University of Illinois at her vanish campaign. Which happened to have a supercomputing center the National Center for supercomputing applications and I had a friend who had a job there and so I, you know he was writing software for a group called the chemistry. Visualization Group. And I happened. It's a talk, my way into an internship there and like so at fourteen I was playing with with supercomputers. Incredibly lucky, just incredibly fortunate series of events. And after that I was able to just keep working. I kept getting new jobs in in my hometown, and eventually one of the companies that I worked for like the was like a five person company in this Cornfield in Champaign Illinois. Got Acquired by Microsoft and so after that. I've been at at Microsoft most of the years since then so for the last almost ten years I've been at Microsoft except little. Pivots move off to company called get hub. And then back at Microsoft. So your your early years, the movie wargames is loosely based on your life. been advised not to discuss that. So you've been at Microsoft most of your years, but spend a good amount of time. It hub as well. What what was that like? So I've been at Microsoft a little over ten years I. Guess or I came to Microsoft a little over ten years ago. and that was very different. So. I came in through this acquisition. We were a tiny little company, and if you're a tiny little company building enterprise software, you've gotTA stretch a little bit and the way we stretch was of course using a lot of open source components used a lot of libraries and toolkits that were open source, and that made sense for us. We were writing some job application and we needed to do some logging. We're not going to invent yet. Another Java logging framework, which is going to use one of the ones that already exists so when Microsoft came and wanted to acquire us one of the things. Things that they do, is they? They do due diligence. They look at the financials. Make sure that's an order and they look the code to make sure that that's an order so they. They opened up our code and what they wanted to do is make sure that first of all it. It wasn't just a pile of garbage, but also to make sure that we held all the copyrights to all the code that we had, and of course we didn't. We had a bunch of open source stuff, so they were like. Wait. What what's going on here? We're not we can't. We can't do this. And, so there were very very long discussions with. Both technical people and lawyers about the state of our code in the amount of open source that we used I. Don't know, but I think this was certainly one of the first acquisitions that they had done with this much open source and It was A. it was a bit of a struggle. We had actually four products when they acquired us in and one of them. We just couldn't. Fix in their opinion like the the risk with the open source was that component that we were using was just too high. And so they so we ended up losing a product. So over the next ten years of course Microsoft. Has You know done numerous things, and and really educated themselves and become an industry leader around open source. But those early days were were a bit of a culture shock for us. But. But no, it's been neat like I. I ended up on on the team that ended up doing the get hub acquisition for example. So, to to be part of that team where we started out with no open source like no like just idea of how to how to even ship something that used open source to suddenly becoming a contributor to open source to then. The. You know the company that that is building Visual Studio Code the company that that. Acquired, good hub. It's been it's been quite a ride. It's particularly important to to pay attention to those licenses rate. Always put mit on all my stuff, then I'll have to deal with it, and neither does anybody else. One of the projects I worked for has an interesting license it's. So to you mentioned at the at the start of the show Libya to its genesis was get itself and get. HAS GPL license Libya to want to be used in applications, so it's got a linking exception, so it's basically. If you change Libya to you have to. I'll summarize and I'm not a lawyer, but you have to contribute the changes that you've made the the modified version of two, but it doesn't infect the rest of your program like like like GPL would itself but other than that one. I'd I also use mit for the most part. So what are you working on these days than? I so. I'm I've got a dirty confession to make I'm not a developer anymore I at least not. For my day job. I? About three years ago, I guess. I actually moved over into a product role. Right now I am the product manager for NPR. So get up, just acquired NPR so if you're a Java script developer, I'm sure you're familiar with NPR. It's where javascript packages live. And we we decided that. That, NPR made a lot of sense with get hub. They're both. Focused on open source communities. They're both really focused on distribution of of software and enabling you to distribute your software. So in source code form on get hub and then in. Warm on NPR. So we acquired that and then I moved over as the as the product manager for NPR when we did that acquisition. So that's what I'm working on now. It's been fascinating I've learned so much 'cause I don't actually come from the node development area. I've written c Java Dot Net, but I've written very little javascript in my career. So it's been a real learning experience to get to know the community to understand what it is that they that they want out of N., p., m. what it is that we can, we can help them with, and that's been really cool, and so that's been. It's only been since. April, so I'm I'm super new to this still and still learning a lot. Before that I was doing product management on get up actions which is get. NEW CI CD system. Let's talk about get hub actions for a little bit. What are get hub actions for those that may not be fully aware. Yeah, so can have actions is get hubs. Answer to CD and being get how we had to do it. Just a little bit differently, it's it's more than just a build and deployment system had actually started out. As, a way to automate common tasks in your get hub repository, so if I if I rewind when we announced it hub actions. What we what we looked at it as a way to. To take get hub APPS, so you've always been able to build tooling on top of get hub. If you want to extend, get up to do something yourself you can build what's called an APP. And that's just something that. subscribes to web hooks on. Get Hub, so maybe you're notified when somebody comments on an issue. An APP does some work, and then you know. Perhaps it doesn't have to, but you know calls back into get hub. Talking to our rest API to do some work, so you can imagine like every time. A new issue gets created. You might have an APP that listens for a Web Hook and adds a label to that issue just up as an example. So this is something that we've supported for years and years, and it's it's generally. A pretty good solution to these problems except they. You've got to figure out how to host your APPs yourself and that's not something that everybody wants to do and so the. Idea behind get hub actions its very first version. was that we would provide the compute for you, so you could. Just describe a workflow that you want to run when something happens, and will run it for you on our hardware and I think that it worked out. Pretty well accepted the first thing that people thought of was well. What what I WANNA do is when somebody opens a pull request. A or pushes something into a branch. What I WANNA do is I want to run a bill. And if you're build consisted of I dunno taking some type script turning it into Java script. Those probably no problem because we gave you docker containers and they weren't. There probably powerful enough for that. But if you wanted to do something like take a bunch of objective C and compiled into an IOS application. You're out of luck because you've gotta run. Islas builds on a Mac. It's like part of the the apple contract the terms and conditions. Really quickly, people let us know that actions was a pretty neat idea, but it wasn't really fulfilling everything that they that they really wanted, so. We kind of went back to the drawing board a little bit. while. We were still in the Beta and basically brought virtual machines to the party, so we we changed it around a little bit to really flesh out that build and release experience that people expected when they saw it. That's one of the great things about Betas you get to. You get to sort things out, and and so he did so now get hub actions is is really a CIC platform as well, so we still got all that that sort of repository automation functionality, so you can run a get actions workflow whenever an issue gets commented on whenever somebody creates. A release in your repository, but you can also run them when a pull request created Wena. When somebody pushes something into master and so then. You can actually run on a real virtual machine, so we've got windows. We've got MAC. We've got Lennox virtual machines that you can actually run. Run builds on, and so I think that's really cool thing about actions it's it's unique in the build automation space. So I've only had really one interaction with it. Hub Actions my latest little toy projects that I'm working on. I decided to go and get that set up and setting it up felt. Almost exactly alike setting up Azure, devops, but hearing you talk about it makes it sound like a snot. Or utilizing that technology, are they? Are they completely separate, or are they linked in any way they're not. They're not completely separate, so it turns out that some of the team that built as pipelines also sort of refit. Get actions into the CD space. So there are a lot of similarities, certainly conceptual. Similarities but As your pipeline was really built to just be that one thing, and so you will see some some differences. Let me give you just a the first example of the Pasta mind. When you're building up actions where CLO- if you wanted to build the first step you have to do, is you have to explicitly say? Go check my repository out and that it's not something you have to do in in. azure pipelines or in Travis or an APP or anything like that because it's, it's obvious, right your your goal in those systems to download that code download that repository and built it, but in get him actions. That's not the only thing that that you might WanNa to I. Don't want to clone repository. If I'm just GONNA tag. Issues because that takes. It's actually really quick, but but you know a couple of seconds that I didn't need to stand maybe even ten if it's a really big repository fifteen, but. Yeah there. There are definitely conceptual similarities I like to think of hub actions as very much inspired by Azure devops, but not it's not just like a white label on top of it for instance. And sounds like at the very least it's a combination of as your pipelines and notifications, and maybe even some functions in their some somewhere, somehow our or just an venting system so to speak, because sounds like a lot of the actions can in archerd by some type of event. That's exactly right. Yeah, it's it's. It's a couple of ideas kind of mixed up, but I I actually think it works really well like that could be a criticism. I think that's its strength among those that maybe might take it as a criticism sounds like there might be existing companies companies that have. Their! Their own workflows already configured and setup using something like your pipelines or travesty. I or whatever so why would one US get hub actions over any other of these technologies? I think that's a really good question. I am really hesitant to change things that are working so if you're you know if you've got an octopus deploy deployment strategy. Set up and you're happy with it. You know that stuff takes time to set up. There's all sorts of institutional knowledge baked into that that I don't think that you should just like. Throw away on a whim for the new shiny but I think that if you're if you're looking at a new workflow, I actually think it. Hub Actions makes a lot of sense if You're developing in get up and. I hope you are, but I realize not everybody is getting actions probably makes no sense for you if you are using. A mercurial repository that's hosted in bit bucket. You know I'll just go ahead and say that, but I think hub actions makes a lot of sense if you have your coat and get hub. I think that you get first of all that that ability to trigger on anything that happens in your repository, because all of a sudden you start thinking of automations that you can do at least I i. do and I realized I might be a little biased, but I every time, I'm playing within my repository I I'm like. Wow, that'd be really cool. If when I did this, I could. Automatically have this happen. And so I think that there's opportunities to. To start automating those those workflows. I just like having my my automation. Right where my code is on the platform that I'm always using. I don't have another log in that I have to make I deep integration between my code and my bill and other parts of get hub. Let me give you a concrete example. Get hub actions is really well tied into. Get packages so. When I when I started to build and get hub actions I get a what's called a get up token. and. This is something that I can use to authenticate back to my repository. For the lifetime of that build and it's not like very. Long term in it's not particularly privileged, but what it allows me to do. Is Things like upload a package to get packages? So my workflow could every time somebody check something into my main branch I could run a build. I could package it up. Maybe it's a Ruby Gem. Maybe it's N. P.. And then I could upload that package. Right to get a patches and I don't need to do any complicated authentication and I don't need to set up any secrets or anything. It's all gist nicely integrated. One example I think that we'll see a lot. More integrations between get hub APPs like actions like packages as time goes on. On the flip side of Y, you might use it. Is there anything that you feel like it has missing? They could prevent somebody from using it. Yes, honestly the. Story is good like I do deployments with get hub actions? It is still missing a couple of things that I would that I might want to really excel and like environments for example. I see a deployment system that that actually knows environments. And, that's something that. The team is working on right now. I've been seeing some mockups I'm I still get to cruise through their repositories and see the issue, so I'm. I'm really excited about what they're working on. Our team uses it for for deployments, and we deployed staging, and then we deployed production. I just want a little more in the UI and so I think that that's going to be really exciting when it lands. In with the the get back. -sition seems like a lot of the development team has moved from Azure ops into working on guitar or working with get hub at least in developing those stories. I've been in the industry. Twenty plus years in in in recent years was mainly t.f s with the FCC, and then okay, we'll. People are starting to move into. GET IN IN T.F S. okay, we're in T.F S now. Has Been Renamed devops, and now it seems like with the acquisition. More focus is being put on get hub, and the technologies there without getting into Indian territory. Is that the path forward for those of us with a history with hazardous shops, or is it just those that are utilizing get hub now get the tools and technologies that existed in after deb ops and kind of giving those to the world. I think that's a good way to look at. First of all I don't think athough is going to go anywhere it's. It has long term support contracts, so it's not like it could just be disappeared tomorrow. But you know. I there are definitely still teams working on it. People working on it. I just saw an exciting announcement that. They are armed sixty four builders azure pipelines, so they're definitely like. That's not a trivial thing to spend. A bunch of arm builds data center. So, they're definitely still doing cool stuff over there. We've got a little closer organizationally between the Azure devops team and get hub and I. think that that does allow for more mixing of ideas and mixing culture. I think that's the thing that I'm most excited about because there is a ton of of knowledge on both sides, the Microsoft team was working on some some improvements to get to allow it to grow to handle things like the windows repository, which is like an insanely large hundreds of gigabytes, which sounds way to be true, but it is code base and. Similarly has people working on on? Get itself. And so now that these two teams are able to communicate better and work more closely together. We're going to be able to do cooler things in my opinion I'm really excited to see what's what's going to come out of that. I think that both products will make a lot of sense. I'm excited about the the ideas that we can come up with together because to really talented teams coming together. With the automation available with hub, you know we're. We're looking to automate any of the tedious. The mundane the error-prone actions that would come into play. How how does one get started with hub actions? Is it just I? Have a repo in get hub in click a few buttons and go, I hope so. That's that's the way I like to think about it the if you ever repo and get hub, you'll have a tab at the top that says actions. The first time you click that if you don't have anywhere close, set up in your repository. Go to a page that gives you a selection of some samples. And these are. Actually, community contributed we at get hub. We generated the first. Dozen and now we're getting. pull requests into a repository. The Ruby team for example has worked on the Ruby starter workflow, so we know it's good, it's it's they've grown it. It's it's really impressive and. Get Hub will look at look at your repository. Try to figure out what kind of code you have in. It There's a tool kit. Hope that we use internally called linguist. Does this. If you've ever looked at your, your repository used to be at the bar at the top. Of It was kind of color coded. Bar and not a lot of people really knew what it was unless you clicked on it, and it would pop down and tell you. We actually moved it just recently over to the to the side over to the right side. And Anyway So we can. We know what kind of repository you have if you've got? Seventy five percent of the files in your repository or are. Are javascript than? What? We'll do is suggest to you the node workflow. And it's pretty straightforward. It'll run and PM install, and then it'll run and PM build, and it'll run MPM test, and and that's most of what you need to get started with. A pluralist allegation builds it'll. It'll just make sure everything builds and everything. Passes We've got some more advanced ones in there like packaging up an MPM package and then uploading, it's a NPR or get packages, and there's some deployment workflows we've worked with. Aws and Google and Asher to build out started workflows for getting things deployed into those into those clouds. Guests I hope that it's as easy as just a couple of clicks I at least forgetting start started. And then you can build from there and grow your workflows. What about for for companies that may not be in in the cloud yet other than using get hub for source control. Yeah so? What we've got, we've got the ability to run your bills or your run your workflows. On an on premise runner that you host and you could put it in. Of course, you can put it in the cloud but I. think that the speaks more to what you're saying, so you could run this inside your data center. And it will basically poll for it. Listen for get actions runs. And it'll pull down the workflow, and then it'll run it within your data, so you could do that. Deploy locally. What about potential security concerns for some of those default get hub action setups, or maybe a setup that I found online somewhere I know the the Yambol. itself is not immediately readable unless you can understand what's supposed to be happening, so is there any security issues with the actions that somebody encounter? Sure I mean I. think that I think that there's a couple of things know if you are on the if you're on, the Internet and somebody tells you to hey, run this code. I I. I think you should. Give some thought to to wear your reading this. You know something like stack overflow. People tend to vote the things that are useful and flag. The things that are are really dangerous. So you know I think that that's a great resource. I think that you know something that is little less trustworthy looking. Maybe you should. Maybe, you should consider I do agree that the the Yambol is. You know it's not everybody's cup of tea by. This is your source code. There are risks and so I think that you should be aware of that on the whole. We haven't seen too many bad actors in the get hub action space which I'm very heartened by a there are of course always risks. Just like you know, if somebody tells you to to pseudo, run this command. You should evaluate what it is that who does that is telling you this in what it is that they they really might want. Okay, so if you're running a project and somebody support request, and you see a change to one of the animal files. Just make sure that you really know what's going on there before you merge that in. Yeah, I would the so the nice thing about the this is that so I mentioned the token earlier, and so we do actually have some. We have different levels of of privileges. Where and action? Is running and win a workflow. It started, so if somebody does submit a request, the changes the animal one thing that they can't do. It was just like exfiltrated your secrets. Because they don't have write access to the repository things running on a pull request. Don't get access to secrets they get. They still get a get hub token so that they can work with the repository, but it's a read only version so there are a number of steps that we take to try to to to make sure that things day. Nice and secure, but it's true you your. Your point is excellent. Once you merge that Yambol Change You have in fact. opened the door a little bit. The thing that jumps out to me though is that I very rarely had a new contributor to a project. Jump in and say I'd like to work on your build system. It turns out. The systems are often not the most glamorous thing. And? I'm not saying it's impossible. For example, somebody might want to add support for another platform and and they might WanNa see I build for that. But. It's not something that I've ever encountered. In fact, trying to get people to work on the bill system is usually the hard part. that. Have we missed anything or any other things to be aware of or or do? We want to jump into resources that you might recommend for those looking to get started. We can jump into resources I think that. I think that's a great idea. So so where do we get started with good hub actions so? What I do is not what you should do. What I do is just kind of jump in and start playing. That's how I learned technologies that that's not much resource, but you know like if you have A. Repository and you WANNA start playing around with actions. You can just run one of those starter workflows and. And start playing around with that. The get hub actions docks I. Think are really good, they're. They're on our new documentation platform. We just we just launched some changes to the dachshund format at get hub. That are really cool. Unified some things we've got some more really cool stuff coming. I've done a number of talks at this point about. Actions. And so I. I, kind of walk you through the getting started and how it works. And in fact, building actions themselves, which were have actions gets its name there the reusable components that. That you can use. Different companies offer actions that you can use within your workflow. I actually just did one I. Have a user group here in London. It's now online, so you can check out the recording of of that. will be to include all those in the show notes. Is there any advice that you might give to somebody who's just getting started or somebody who has maybe been in the industry for a while, and then gone stagnant, but now they want to jump back in and really Kinda. Get their career going again. What I do is I always have side projects? And now this is I can see. A really. Something that I have spare time for like if I had kids for example. If. I had young kids if I had. Somebody that needed extra care at home. This guy might legitimately be an option. I'm very privileged. But I do have side projects and that that's what allows me to actually keep writing code even though I'm a product manager. And keeps me plugged into the developed space. So I have side projects, and most of them are open source projects, there are always open source projects. Looking for contributors I've got one. It's called Libya to I would love more contributors and I'd be happy to. Actually work with somebody who? Wanted to sort of level up their their contributions in as much time as I can, but I think a lot of open source projects are looking for contributors and willing to mentor people. So if you're getting started I think that that's A. Really good opportunity again. If you have the time and I realized that not that not everybody does, but you know if you're looking for that sort of level up I guess. I think that that's a really good opportunity. Especially something in a different language or a different platform than what you're used to I mean first of all that makes it feel less like work. You know if you're just you're writing a bunch of dot net code dot net Ui Code all day, and you're like I'm going to write a bunch of dot net code at night. Starts to feel like the same sort of thing. But if all of your like, I'm GonNa. Learn objective C and Build. An Ireland application or swift, then all of a sudden it, it might feel more fun. At least it does for me I spent the weekend learning rust or not spent the weekend beginning to learn rust. It's a a bigger language and a bigger platform than I expected. It's got a lot of package stuff that you gotta pull down my right at the beginning. Yeah, I yeah, and then the borrow model I'm. I'm still I'm still trying to get my head around it as a c programmer I i. thought it would be a lot more like see. It is in fact, not which knows kind of cool. All right and what about social media if anybody did want to reach out to you to maybe ask questions about in PM, or get actions, or even possibly contributing to get to yeah, that'd be great. I'm on twitter. I'm a Thomson. That's E. T. H.. O.! M. S. eleven so Thomson without a P.. All right thanks, Edward really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today. Thank you. That was Edward Thompson Edward as a developer tools nerd maintain lib. Get to the get library. Host of all things get the podcast about kit and curator of developer tools weekly. If you like this episode, please like rate interview on Itunes. Find, show notes blog posts a more at six-figure dot com. And catch US live each week on twitch and be sure to follow us on twitter at six figure. This has been another episode of the six figure developed podcast helping others. Research potential I am John Calloway Heim, Clayton and and I'm done.

Microsoft developer NPR Libya Edward Thompson Edward product manager BBC Keith Keith Wessel. PM Champaign Illinois Illinois Champaign Urbana University of Illinois Edward Thompson National Center John Calloway
Modern Infrastructure as Code with Pulumi's Joe Duffy

Hanselminutes

33:40 min | 1 year ago

Modern Infrastructure as Code with Pulumi's Joe Duffy

"Pay Database and APP developers. Do you want to build faster and run bigger workloads. We've got you covered with an exclusive free download of data stacks. Enterprise fries data stacks. Enterprise works with all the latest tools like Kafka and docker with incredible throughput and the best security download data. Stacks Enterprise for free today by visiting data. Stacks that's Dat A. S. T. A. X. dot com slash download DSE. That's the data. Stacks Enterprise for free visit data stacks dot com slash download DSP. Hi this is Scott Hanson. This is another result of Hansel minutes today talking Joe Duffy founder and CEO of Pollu- me Hor power user. I'm excellent Kabir's go I noticed I was over on the dot net blog at Microsoft and You know they don't let everybody guest post but there. There's an actual guest post from the pollux. My team about the project and I thought that was pretty cool so I was going to start digging into this and learning about what's going on. It says infrastructure as code what is infrastructure as code. Yeah it's it's not a term that many of us developers these are familiar with Certainly even before starting Palu me. I wasn't very deeply engaged in doing it. Infrastructures Code what infrastructure's code is is essentially when you want to build a cloud application maybe uses containers. Maybe his service you need to deal with. Infrastructure infrastructure is the stuff that powers or cloud applicastions the virtual machines. It's clusters gainers themselves. Infrastructure's code is a way of managing that instructor actually just using code so instead of completely stepping capping outside of your programming language. Your editor to go deal with infrastructure. You can actually just program it from within your code And by doing that you get automation automation. It's it's basically just like all the benefits of Writing Code. It's automatic credit. You can automate things you conversion it like code you can collaborate on it like code. It works in your editor. You can share in US things with package managers all this stuff. We know about code now applies infrastructure interesting. Okay so I just Google something real quick because many many many years ago if you go and search for power shell large scale handsome and it looks like July of two thousand was an seven's or twelve years ago Power shall one point zero was out and this is very long time ago. I wrote a white paper called Managing large-scale system deployment climate windows power show. This is like before we knew what the cloud was so large-scale was not quite a thing it says even before I think the idea of of DMC desired state configuration and we went and built out data centers with power. Shell in one of the things that we struggled with was was this idea of declarative versus programmatic. You know do you make an engine versus. Do you describe what you want and then if you do describe what you want how do you get into that state and how do you avoid invalid states and again twelve years ago but it was basically an XML file described pod that described an environment and the different roles of stuff and then we had an engine that was built in power. Shell that basically did whatever it could to get the system where we wanted but this is xml and w the ally and calm and Dekom and it was cool but not really very reliable. Were we reaching for some Nirvana that. We're starting to actually hit with products. Like pulling me I think so I in the last ten twelve years. Let's say you know the term devops has has come to come into being being We've seen tools like you know frankly power show but also things like chef and puppet answerable salt stack. A lot of these technologies have become popular and commonplace commonplace and the modern cloud is far more programmable in its by its very nature you know. The azure platform exposes. API's is for literally everything that it does and so it used to be the case. There's a very human driven activity to do anything with it management. You'd have consuls that you pointed. Click around now the everything has API and so that that enables you to now build program models on top of those API's and that's ultimately y Palomas possible now. Still a lot of infrastructures code tools. These days still use Jason Auriemma will not not xml anymore but similar similar concept where you're basically expressing it desired state using a markup language. The problem with that is modern. Cloud architectures tend tends to be a lot of moving pieces. There's a lot of complexity and so actually using a programming language to declare your desired state. And that's a key important differentiation. The plume is still desired. State based even though. You're writing code in a full-blown programming language. But you don't have to repeat. Recreate the wheel all the time. So you can use everything we know and love about languages and apply it to desired state so if you have patterns that recur from time to time you can express those but absolutely the the modern. The progress in modern clouds is really what enables these sorts of tools to exist. So it's that programmatic Programmatic Ability Pergamon ability. I was presenting recently in try and someone said well. What's the cloud? The cloud is just other people's computers. I was like yeah. That's part of it right but it's being able to programmatic talked to it and say I want something and you do the racking of the machine you add more memory like we you and I were the cloud back in the day like Hey Ellen or a scale out all right. I'll go buy a machine all racket. And now the what what the cloud is elastic. nece right. That's the magic of the cloud it is. It's the magic of the elasticity the reliability the Global Lavale ability We work with a lot of big companies that still have to manage data centers across the world. And that's that's expensive business and and frankly you're prominent going to be as good at it as say Microsoft Microsoft's operations team who can make sure that azure continues to run reliably and you know. Microsoft stops got a lot of really smart engineers building these cloud services and making sure that the reliable and and and fail-safe and and built in a performance in scalable way And you can leverage all of that expertise in the cloud instead of having to develop it on your own so so back in the day when I was kind of like probing this space ten plus years ago it was is trying to be a declaration. We're all trying to create a dom effectively that describes the state of our data center right and and Pollux me. Let you do that. That that that that description that object model but in whatever language makes you happy effectively yes So preliminary multi-language it's a it's a runtime so at the core at the heart of it is exactly the sort of dumb. It's like a cloud object moon that represents all of the different cloud capabilities in although we work right on Azure we also support aws. Google Cloud Cooper Netease. which is you know really important to us? We have actually three dozen different providers in each one of those essentially a dozen and we project yes yeah so digital ocean new relic data dog. GET HUB lab and it turns out you know. Modern cloud isn't just about the cloud it's also about that's right you oftentimes. You're using maybe mail chimp to send email from your application -cation maybe you're using new relic to to do performance monitoring and all of that is infrastructure that you need to manage and provisions so we support that and then we we basically project that dom into all different languages we support so the reason why you saw the dot net post is we just added dot net core support. So you can actually write your infrastructure's Chris Code using C.. Sharp F sharp visual basic. That we haven't yet dusted off the Fortran or cobol versions. But you know that's that's coming it also power show Super powerful you can use type script python. What whatever suits you so by doing that? You're getting familiar language but more than that you can benefit it from the ecosystems of tooling that has been built around these different languages when But who who's a competition like I just said that I'm you know I was messing around and I only say it in the light of ways you know twelve years ago because everyone's been trying to do this forever. Aren't there other declarative programming. Languages is our declarative formats for for cloud. How does how does blooming rate- relate to those? Yeah it's interesting. You know along this journey of devops and infrastructures code. You know the term infrastructure's code is probably eight ten years old. You know if you look on Wikipedia. There's a lot of examples. I mentioned chef. Puppet in those tools were more around virtual machine configuration and people still use those tools but now as we're moving more towards container in surplus architectures they're used less and less frequently and in its place place because of this desired state model we sort of reverted to writing everything in the ammo Jason and languages which then hits the wall at some point so a lot of times we'll see. Hey we copy and pasted the same gammel over and over again. We needed ten instances of this certain resource configured basically the same and because Yan will does not four loops. We basically coffee and pasted in some sort of having ten lines of Yam. Oh we have one hundred lines amel it starts to get unwieldy because you know. Imagine you fix a security problem and now to go track down everywhere else you copy and pasted that same problem and for for some of our customers you know maybe their consultants. They're dealing with dozens of of client accounts and now they have to go back to their customers and say. Hey you know that Yambol I gave you last week. We need to go fix it And so especially with the current cloud. Modern cloud is very fine grain. There's lots of resources to manage from. AML Am L. Services Databases Object Stores Service Functions. You know at that scale but level of complexity. We're seeing just the approach of using Yambol in two main specific languages is just breaking down for most people that we work with how. How much of this is declarative? Like I like what you said about a cloud object model And how much of it is programmatic. Like you made a comment about a for loop. You know We had similar problems when we were trying to express these things in exile where we were trying to decide. Are we going to be fully like this is a picture of what it should look like. Figure it out or are we going to try to put in functional programmatic Constructs and try to program. Oh come our way out of this problem yes. Sometimes I joke that That plumes actually imperative imperative shouldn't have been. I shouldn't have even said that it's basically You're the DOM itself is declared of but you're using an imperative language or functional. You know frankly if you pick up sharp so so we basically decoupled the notion of how you express your intent which is done in a language with the desired state and the key is is that that dumb is something you can analyze. We actually give you the dom we actually say before we do a deployment we say. Hey here's the dumb. Here's a desert state eight that that we think you want. Is this correct. No okay well. We'll show you your program where you created this object. You'd go fix that and then say let's let's give it another try I and then because we have that dom diff- you know so we know. Hey you're changing this one property or you're you're creating a new instance of this and all of that integrates for us with a lot a lot of people do get based workflows where they're actually pushing code between environments and so. We can integrate with get hooked poor request to show you the DOM. And so it's really the the marriage of the a general purpose languages with this dom concept that makes Paloma unique is the is the abstract syntax tree of it at all is it is it Idi medically the language that you use or is it some intermediate language. That's halfway to your engine. Consumes it yet actually one analogy I. I kind of draw base my background. Sometimes it's almost like think of how calm worked right where Com- e- you had projections in different languages. Ultimately there was the com object model. There's an ideal that kind of describe what that core object model was and then there is an idiomatic as possible projection into each language's so like visual basic. You didn't have to think about ref counting because in visual basic we didn't want that but then. NC Plus plus all the rest counting was at your fingertips fingertips in all the goods. And everything were there and so it's kind of a similar thing with Plumey for example or go. SDK We built that to be imbed -able inside of other products products and so we actually have a lot of people are building larger systems. That embed that in there so it gives you a little bit more information about the dom that you can control whereas you know are tight script. Language Support Court is really targeting. Sort of J s developer who really wants to create these objects and stitch them together and use the the the note ecosystem to do that. And so it's it's definitely projected idiomatic teach language. But there's this common core to it which is really important especially when you're doing you know policy enforcement insecurity and you know you know if you if you want visibility cross organization not knowing that there's this common object model that you can analyze and understand and over time is really really important And just to expand a couple of acronyms for folks that aren't of a certain age You said COM component object model of pre dot net world too late nineties And then the ideology interface definition language which was like wisdom for in process objects. And then later you're out of process objects it was an interface definition. So there's this interface you think of the cloud is an interface and you then have a projection of that in idiomatic. Whatever language makes you happy? And how many languages do you support. so we support Type script javascript python go and then any dot net core language so oh she sharp f sharp and V. Hey friends I want to introduce a new sponsor to you. HMO A VPN to VPN you can count on as you know. I do a lot of travel Roland. I tend to connect to a lot of untrusted wireless networks and I probably shouldn't but I can use HMA as the world's largest VPN service offers the most server locations worldwide covers one hundred ninety countries. There's always a server in nearby doesn't log your Ip address and allows me to connect five devices simultaneously works on basically all platforms android IOS. Mac Lennox windows routers wherever. It's actually been completely redesigned recently to make it even simpler simpler and more fun to us and there's even a smart kill switch that will turn the VPN automatically on when you launch sensitive APPs. Here's your call to action. My friends try. HMA HMO A VPN risk free with a thirty day money back guarantee this deal is for Hansel minutes listeners. That's HMA VPN DOT com slash offer hyphen hansel minutes. That's HMA VPN DOT com slash offer Dash Hansel minutes and when we say idiomatic right. The goal is to make it feel not like it's Google translate where it's like. Well I see that you're trying to speak Spanish here but it's not really you are honestly trying to make she sharp people feel comfortable doing see sharpie type stuff well python people feel. They're comfortable when they're using their projection. That's exactly right so you know C.. Sharp are we use task task. Parallelism nascent methods in type script raising promises and python. Were using you know and even down to the level of you you know getting the right casing and the right idiomatic naming constructs. We really want you to feel at home in your language of choice in. It's really important to us because we actually see the One of the founding team members Luke Hogan was at Microsoft He actually was part of the founding team for Types Krypton. We often wondered together together in the early days you know as we had. New Languages is each one additive or we basically just taking imagine there's one hundred people in the world that would ever use plumey are we. Just you know slicing up that one hundred and dividing an across different language ecosystems or actually finding as it is additive when we added Dot net support. We connected with a totally a different audience than when we python support. And so there's this it's really important to us that we that we feel idiomatic that we're at you feel like we're at home home for those end users that you can use your favorite tools like if you have your own test framework that you're familiar with and C.. Sharp we want you to be able to use that really core to to what what we try to do. And then frankly it's the hardest part of of supporting a new language for us Back to that horrible Portmanteau that you just made their the imperative errative versus declarative an imperative. There's places like looking at the dot net specific as you can. I'll make sure that we include links to all of this and the show notes. There's places where we go say like deployment dot run ASE INC and then you'll build with a quasi fluent interface. An object that like cosmos APP and Cosmo's apple has these archives Parts of it feel like you're building it. Tom and then parts of it have very verb action action verb type stuff like run. A sink is is it really. Running is really doing something at that moment or is that a lie. Yes so it's it's basically declaring the deployment when you run the program using the plume me. Cli I run the program and compute what we call a preview sometimes known as a plan. And that's going to show you what if the what if it's like a dry run and then the seal I will say hey. Is this what you want to do. Yes no or show me more details if you could show me. More details tells us shows you the full object graph. You can inspected if something wasn't what you expected if you hit yes than it actually orchestrates the deployment and it just basically applies the plan that it showed you. You can run these independently sometimes people especially you know the get PULL requests workflow. I mentioned earlier one times. People WanNa see that plan and the poll request before for the emergent so they know that. Hey when I merged this request it's going to deploy three functions and delete a container and do all these things. That's how the Cli kind of worked in tandem with the programming ball when you want something big made in the cloud and something small doesn't work. How does an engine like Palu me get you into that state? If something happened how do you know if it was a transient thing. Where like oh well you know? Aws or Azure couldn't get you a big VM right now but try again versus You know you ran out of money or something that stops you in its tracks. How can you get a plan? That's close enough versus a plan that either succeeded or failed. That's a great question in all honestly it's interesting being in our position because we tend it'd be the interface into all these different cloud providers for our end users and so something fails. It's our responsibility to make sure it's a great experience. And that's a philosophy. We have on the team. It doesn't matter if you know. Hey azure timed out for some reason or you know the the. The person didn't have money in their account like we. We view that as court heart experienced. Who wants to be a great experience? Now that said it's difficult So what we do is when when you do that preview step. We actually validate as much much as we can. We actually go to the cloud provider we say. Hey here's what we're GONNA do. Does this look valid to you. Surface is this is sort of our background in programming languages. Right you wanna find as many errors as close to writing the code as possible and so we do as much as we can in the editor as you're typing red squirrels. And then and during the preview in the worst case is if it fails during deployment But even in that case we we come back and we tell you exactly what line of code it was and another important thing is as. You're doing deployments plumas transaction really check pointing state so that no matter what happens if you fail. You're in a known the state you can choose to roll back if you want but you're always in a known well-defined state and so we've made sure that because things fail right Ri entire regions regions. Go offline billing as you as you point out sometimes you might not have permissions to do the operation. You're trying to do because you know you're in an organization that has locked down you no security permissions so we've tried to make that a great experience. We also protect against common failures like retry. At the right time you know in case there is a transient transient network problems so that try to insulate you from his many of those failures as possible. That's really significant. Because there is the you know the the going back to my naive implementation Asian many years ago when we got into a we don't know what state were in but you know some stuff got made and good luck It was basically just torch it and try again was the best we do. There wasn't any kind of granularity and there was minimal governance or policy management yen. That's one of the biggest arguments for using it. Infrastructures Code Tool. Is You know that sort of infrastructure maturity life cycle that we see is step one. Most people go into the azure console or radio console pointing click to provision things. They're just exploring their learning. That's perfectly fine. Most people learn that way. The problem then comes you know. Hey maybe one a second second copy of that maybe you want production and staging maybe want to share it with a colleague in and have them stand up their own copy or you need to scale to a new region. At that point you need autonation and the obvious way to do automation is to open code. You know provisioning of new resources with problem is exactly what you point out. Where if it fails Dell's now your script has to think about every possible? permutation of failure in every state transition. And that's what it infrastructures. Code tool fundamentally does it knows does the desired state and it knows how to Converge On desert state. No matter what state you are currently at that removes a ton of complexity that you just don't need to think about it anymore. For that is that is the trick though like all of this is trying to hide complexity but also it shouldn't feel like a black box that has hidden so much that you just throw your wishes you know into the well and hope that things work out nicely. So how do you find that balance. You said that you can give them line numbers you you follow it all the way back at the projection and say the engine failed here but in your projection. That's line twenty sex exactly We treat this. You know a lot of folks. It's on the team. Come from visual studio in Dot Net and compilers in languages and so. We've we've treated the whole infrastructure's code experience like we would a programming language or a compiler And frankly over time where you know we love. Vs Code and were were kind of integrating more deeply into that and bringing more things things just closer to the development experience so you know because we talked to people a Lotta times when something fails. It's ten ten minutes into a deployment. It's Kinda already too late. Production production is now potentially suffering outage. And it's kind of like some transient failure. You had a pile of Gammel and it's not even clear where the failure came from and so we're really trying to bring a great developer experience to infrastructure Which which is pretty unique? I think Because a lot of a lot of the you know we we've been on this journey for long time and I think our our standards for what's acceptable in the infrastructure space are actually much lower than what our standards are are in the application developer space. Where we're willing to tolerate messy hard to diagnose failures for some reason? I think it's just historically how ended up here and so we're trying to revisit that the larger Palu me kind of cloud devout platform isn't just this runtime right this tools. There's libraries is run time the goal of which is to give you that the consistent development that consistent operational plan for everything. How much does it try to hide? Like pretend ten that we don't even know what cloud were on versus. How much is it really straightforward with you about the realities where you're doing like how much do abstract away? And how much do you decidedly. Sadly not abstract way as a great question We intentionally system sort of layered. We intentionally don't abstract away away at the fundamental building block layer. So I I think it is. You know it's turtles all the way down right programming language so everything's classes and functions and things compose but everything bottoms out at that basically the dom that we're talking about where you've got access to every cloud provider all of the resources all the properties properties on those resources in their raw form. We don't get in the way we don't want abstract over it if you're going to Azure using cosmos. DB We want you to have the latest and greatest features and be able to use them fully. Now where starts to get interesting as we can actually give you helper libraries but still the next layer up is still clouds specific. So you mention listen. We're actually on the released azure blog In partnership with the Cosmos Debate team this distributed application concept where oftentimes the people will provisions Cosmos Database. But then their application isn't globally distributed. So it's not taking advantage of the latency savings of the database and so we can give you a COSMO's was application. A component is what we call it in that just hides a lot of the infrastructure complexity. But you still know. You're using azure in that case And so that sorta like this middle layer where we can help you with common patterns. You can frankly build your own and then we do see some people taming the complexity of having to do multiple clouds house using abstractions so one of our customers. They run in Azure. But they also have to run on Prem and so let's call them Acme Corp they're able to create an Acme Corp virtual machine abstraction that knows how to at deployment time either. Go to Azure or go to fear. VM ware VCR on Prem. And that's it's allowed them. You know it's not it's not completely hiding the complexity but it helps to encapsulate some of the complexity and enables other people in the team to think at a different level construction right so now application developers can create applications out of composing acne core virtual machines without having to completely replicate their configuration for the two different environments. And so we see a lot you know increasingly more of that and we're really excited about the sort of blueprints and patterns there but fundamentally you can always pierce through the abstraction action and get at the raw underlying cloud and I think that's essential because you see some platforms as a service that have come in the where it works great for sort of development but then when you go into production you have to completely rewrite everything because it it hit too much from you is. They're trying to strike a nice balance between that abstraction in the level level of precision and control that most enterprises need so given the the space which is arguably somewhat what crowded and has been developing since you know puppet in two thousand five. What is Pollu- me do that kind of uniquely sets it aside from the deep various and sundry list of a dozen similar if not community did not directly like one to one features but like where do you say? Oh Yeah you you should use plumbing rather than Fu my answer to this now is different than it would have been at the start. You know at this nerd. I thought it was in honestly. It's it's more or of a people thing than it is a technology thing I thought it was. I thought it was. Hey general purpose languages you know it solves a bunch of problems technical problems right package management. You get better editor experience sharing and reuse. What we're finding with is actually? It's the fact that now infrastructure for structure and operations teams can actually work with development teams together historically. They've had completely different stacks right so the team team was working on their APP stack and then the infrastructure team is working on chef puppet. Or what have you where in that sort of reinforce some of the silos where you know. If developers need new infrastructure they file a ticket and they wait for the IT team to provision it and then they get back you know maybe a month later or quarter later whereas now what we're seeing is especially with the rate of change in modern cloud architectures things workflows that are unlocked by technologies like surveys containers in Coober. Nowadays that is we're actually seeing that infrastructure teams want to empower their developers to be a lot more self-serv if a developer wants a queue or topic back. Or you know a new container or a new Atra function or whatever it is they want to be able to have their teams do that but the infrastructure team wants to put in place guardrails to make sure that developers don't accidentally do the wrong thing. It's always see developers really like it. Because they use their favorite language. They basically supercharge their their ability to build L. More powerful cloud applications While at the same time the infrastructure team feels comfortable and they can still get the the management and policies and oversight that they need need and so it's really that developer appeal that I think sets it really apart from from most of what's out there. I noticed that I can go and install the the the police cli. I can install stuff on my local machine but just while you were talking. I went to APP. DOT PLUME DOT COM logged in with get hub said I use Azure and C.. Sharp or Click Click Click. And now I'm doing it all in the cloud and I just basically a one liner that I run to get the things that I want to get. And and what is the relationship between the Cli and this console on the cloud. Yes so I often describe this using an analogy so you know the Cli Cli can think of is like get right. It's an offline tool you can run it fully offline if you want you can use it without our service but our services kind of like. Get Hub Bob in the sense that get plus get hub is a lot easier. It handles a lot of problems for you. If you WANNA use it in your organization it makes it easier under share your projects and so that's essentially what the police service is. All about. The Plymouth Service is you know. It's the default mode that we recommend people use. That makes it just really reliable so everything you're doing is when I mentioned the transactional check pointing. It's using the service to do that. It's giving visibility. So if you do deployments you're going to get full history mystery similar to how get up gives you commit history with limit you'll see your full deployment history and because when you logged in you you did it with get hub. If you're actually the triggering deployments from hub itself watcher. Show you that commit itself. So we'll we'll show you every deployment who performing the deployment. What commit it came from? What Paul request? It came from him for years in the poor requests workflow. And then if you WANNA use a team you can sign up a new organization and that gives you all the standard things around an organization like role based access control You can more easily share and work in collaborate on shared projects you can have a continuous integration So that you can get service counts. Where you're you're doing deployments automatically rather than manually and then other other features as well around just security and compliance and you'll notice it's bas- basically a SAZ model so that's the model for the company you know we open source the holistic as though is there? We didn't hold anything back. And and the part that we charge for is just the says now it turns out there's a free tier as well for unlimited use. It's really just when you WANNA use similar to how you get free individual repos get right. You get the same plume but once you WANNA use organizations. That's that's when you pay and even then you get started fifty fifty dollars a month for three people. It's it's pretty pretty affordable at that point. Okay so would you recommend that people just hit APP DOT com walk through the process. It's like a five minute. That thing to get a hello world. Blew me out running and then a weekend to take whatever they've already got going and set it up for themselves. Yeah absolutely there is You know apt up Luna Dot Com. There's also dot com. There's these getting started buttons the we call it action blue. You Click any of those buttons. We'll take you through walk throughs and as you point out says hey which cloud cloudy want. Which language do you want and then it just walks you through building simple application and then we've got over one hundred Charles now for lots of different application architectures very very cool? Well thank you very much Joe Duffy for chatting with me today. Yeah thanks got a lot of fun. This has been another episode of Hansel minutes. And we'll see you again next week

developer Azure Microsoft Google editor Joe Duffy founder and CEO US Scott Hanson Kabir Jason Auriemma Kafka Dat A. S. T. A.
Megxit

Today, Explained

24:32 min | 11 months ago

Megxit

"Hello Hello Mom yes listen. It's Friday I know there's it's been a lot of news this week. Tell me about it. There's been you know fires in Australia. Unrest in the Middle East. I there's been this flight that went down the beginning of the Harvey Weinstein trial. Oh my gosh out about that one. That means you did listened listened to yesterday showed shits. I did have the but I'd be something happened and I stopped listening to. It happens to the best of us but I think I no what news you are most excited about the royal family. It is the big news out of the Royal Family. Yes Sir my question is because you've been following this more closely than I have. Do you think with all of the news we have. There's enough here to make a whole episode sewed about with the Royal Family. Of course fresh default they want to be independent. They want to make their own money and leave. Leave the country and bring their child up the way they want to bring him up then. Not Comfortable the paparazzis all they say things about Megan. She was never accepted into that society. She can do anything. Like she's having our coddle toast so that's all begging these having avocado toast and last night mega less Kinda data actually left her baby to. She left her baby and Canada. Why did you leave her baby and Canada? I myself didn't know that she left the baby until I heard that she left the baby with the nanny with the Moll. Rooney's and now she's GonNa be with the baby. Nobody knows the details. We'll try to get to at the bottom of all this for you in today's episode. But you gotTa promise that you'll listen. Okay I I really I really. It's astonishing it's momentous is has no oh precedent in modern time. Prince Harry the most popular royal after the Queen and his American wife. Megan issuing what amounts to a declaration independent the couple issuing this personal statement today saying that they intend to step back. Senior members of the royal family split their time between the UK and North America Queen. Kristen minds are obsessed with Megan. And Harry help us cut through all the the noise right now. What is this announcement really? Meet the first part of the announcement. Is that going to step back somewhat from their senior royal duties. The second part is they want to divide hide their time more between North America which is where Meghan Markle is from. Obviously she is an American who also lived in Canada for many many years and then the park three of this. Is there going to change their relationship with the press Tom. Let's go through these three things one by one starting with their leaving their salaried positions. They're no longer going to be salaried members of the firm if you will they do show up occasionally for royal engagements. They fully support the Queen. They're still in line for the throne but they make their living outside of the firm. They receive save money in order to do what is essentially diplomacy and public relations. They are defining what it means to be British they are defining what it means is to be royal and in a lot of ways they are a tourism draw The royal supposedly depending on what sources you look at bringing one point eight a billion pounds per year in tourism dollars people going to those royal sites and wanting to do royal tours. I'm look at the royal costumes and jewellery owelry and see them out in public. So that adds up to quite a bit of money that they bring in Do we know what like the net worth of of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Yeah there's a lot of speculation around that some sources say that it's as little as twenty nine million dollars which some say it's that much I mean. He unfortunately received that money under very sad circumstances. That's an inheritance from his mother that makes up most of it and then Megan of course had a career your long before she knew Harry she was making plenty of money on her own. That suits money. Yes that's right seven o'clock I'm not here because I like the view. Don't misunderstand me when I say the view I'm referring to your face that's funny because I'm hideous soothsayer. Let's talk. I'm sorry I'll stop. I'm sorry tell me more about this move. My mom let me know that. Megan is already in Canada where they actually GONNA settle. Is it going to be Montreal. Miami a CONDO window in Toronto mansion with scancen while they have ties in lots of parts of North America obviously Toronto for all those years that Megan Megan was shooting suits. Their Megan has some very close friends there. And that's the nation where Megan and Harry I were really you know established as a couple couple was in Canada however Megan's originally from California. She also has close ties to Chicago because she's a graduate of Northwestern University and she also has close ties to New York City where she has many friends and has come back many times including for her baby shower. Oh Nice so. We just don't really know where they're going to get. I hope she moves next door to me. But I just don't think that's GonNa Happen. Unfortunately I'm for Canada. Canada could use some cure biased. Because you're from there and that's fine that's fine it would make my among the happiest Okay let's talk about this third thing because I think this is sort of the crux of the whole matter here. What will this changing relationship with the press arrest? Look like and why is that so important to them. What currently exists ver? The British royals is something called the Royal Road System. And it's kind of like the press corps the White House and this is just a select handful of press outlets that have the exclusive on stories. They get to have photos voto before they're published even on instagram. And so this select group of press outlets you think would all be established prestigious legitimate intimate and so on but it actually includes a lot of rigs like the Sun Gossip rags that. Frankly Treat Megan. In particular like an enemy of the state in the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have come out fighting facing down media critics and taking legal action against the Mail on Sunday a British tabloid in a lawsuit the Royal Couple says the tabloid unlawfully edited and published. A private letter believed to be from Megan to her estranged father. Thomas Markle always protect my family and I know I have a founding supervise and if anybody else knew what I knew if bid if all the a bit osborne and anyone who should be doing exactly what. I'm what I'm doing as well. They say that she straight Outta Compton. They creek ties. Between her and terrorists they are nothing short of racist and sexist and this is something that even when she and Harry were just courting came up again again and again to the point that he made a public statement even before they were engaged and all of the women. MP's also made a concerted effort to make this public that they don't approve approve of us and signed a joint letter in support of Megan Markle. So they no longer WANNA be part of the royal wrote a system and they want to. They've said on their website deal more directly with both grassroots press outlets and media programs and so on but in addition to those grassroots media outlets they wanNA deal with more established legitimate it media outlets they don't WanNa be dealing with the sun anymore they don't want to have to give their fur story to the Daily Mail. Is it their relationship with the oppressed kind of lead them to make this decision. Well I'm sure it factored in have been vicious. It has been daily. It has been unrelenting the the impact on your physical health of all the pressure that you really feel I would say look any woman when they're especially when they're pregnant you're really vulnerable and so that was made made fairly challenging when you have a newborn no time ago and especially as a woman. It's really it's a lot right so you add this on top of just trying to be a new mom trying to be a newlywed. It's Yambol they can also thank you for asking because not many people have asked him. I'm okay but it's a very real thing to be going through. Behind the scenes there have been multiple cases of Megan being criticized for doing exactly the same things that Kate Middleton does and a celebrated for for those who don't know. Kate Middleton the wife of Prince William Harry's older brother Yes that's right and so for example Megan at one point war wedge heels which is quote breaking protocol and yet Kate has been doing that ever since she was engaged to. William Megan was photographed with her hands in her pockets which was considered are disrespectful but the queen was photographed very recently on the front cover of a newspaper with her hands in her own pockets. Did anyone think that that was disrespectful. When the Queen did it no oh well speaking of the Queen? How did Her Majesty react to this announcement from Megan and her husband? Tersely I think would be the right right word for it. It sounds as though conversations that were happening behind the scenes about this. Were probably quietly slowly taking place and it. It sounds as though when the Queen's Office responded about an hour after Megan Harry made their announcement on instagram. Yeah it did not sound as though her office was very very excited about this. How does the public react well? The public's quite divided there are the Meghan markle haters which are numerous all over the UK including the UK tabloid press who used to criticize her for leaching off the state and now that she and Harry have announced that they are going to be making their own living have now accused of abandoning her post. We feel we have our inner alienable personal sovereignty. But I'm afraid if you're in a member of the royal family. I don't think that applies I mean. Virtually a letter of resignation isn't it. We can't take the we don't like it. We were defeating very miserable. We've had six great weeks out on Vancouver Island. We cut alike that they announced it officially on instagram disgraceful. I really do talk to handle things in the way that they are and not take any advice ice which is what they are doing is grossly responsible for any royal or indeed anyone in public life. Harry and Meghan go to Canada now. Uh and they won't have any cameras at some place. This is just an absolute fos but I would say stateside. There's some sadness because how sad that the abuse that she has received has been a factor in them pulling away from the crown and that's sad that that's what caused is this but they're celebration because hey you're going to be closer to us now to have some royalty living on our peripheral. It's GonNa be fun so it sounds like in the UK where these traditions are rich and storied. People are really upset and in the United States where we don't have a royal family and people. I don't really care. About the royal traditions people are open to the modernization of the British. Royal Family I would say sale and I also think that in the US it's easier for us is to have more of a fun celebrity Disney relationship with royalty. Because we don't have any of our own so of course we're going to be enchanted with that over here. A lot of us are is. There's some truth to some of the things that people have said about this couple in the press. I mean people say they're you know. These prominent environmentalists spot. They're traveling traveling around the world and private jets all the time of course and then I don't know is there something to be said about Meghan. MARKLE's signed up for this life in the biggest spotlight in the world and all Samsung doesn't like it Something that she herself said in the. It documentary about their efforts in Africa during their Africa. Tour was that she. We always expected it to be difficult but she also expected it to be fair and things have not been fair. Why did she expect it to be fair though? Because I I think that she expected it to hopefully not be entirely racist all the time. She did not expect it to be lies all the time. She did not expect her male to be stolen. She did not expect. Her family. Members was to be bribed. I think that she expected maybe the same level of abuse that Kate Middleton or Eugenie or Beatrice kept but she wasn't expecting the kind of vitriol Israel she receives on the daily. Listen you know. I feel about racism. Kristen but like with Princess. Diana died in a car accident while being chased around by Paparazzi. I would not expect could things to come of anything to do with that. There are a lot of problems with the family and I will be the first to admit it I mean come on. They are inbred Brad. They groomed a teenager to be a bride. They have a sex offender who they're essentially just protecting right now yes. There are a lot of problems in this family and for that reason they should be grateful. There's a Meghan markle somebody who is outspoken. Volunteering at soup. Kitchens all through her time while she was on suits so to have somebody like that in the family you. You would think that the royals would be thrilled to have that. I mean would you rather have her or Prince Andrew in your family Meghan Markle but I would have been making. We loved you your family but you should have known all these people are a little while. Didn't you see the crown on your now going to be the subject of the crown season. forty-seven or whatever not even a six right. Yes but frankly. The royal family doesn't know how to deal with racism. They have zero experience dealing with racism except for their own family members being racist. Sometimes I don't I think they know how to deal with that when racist headlines are being thrown at them and so they stayed silent through all of this and I cannot imagine being Megan Markle in this family Dealing dealing with US racist abuse constantly and nobody in your family that you married into will actually acknowledge it or speak up on your behalf Women don't need to find a voice they have a voice they need to feel empowered to use it and people need to be encouraged to listen. always kristen in a minute. It's Today explained tech has consequences and recode by boxes boxes exploring them all. With the new multi-platform journalism project called open source through videos and articles open source will explore and demystify controversial issues shoe surrounding technology everything from facial recognition and surveillance to how Adam micro targeting will affect the twenty twenty election. The project is supported by Media Network a global network of innovators entrepreneurs and technologists committed to addressing the most critical economic technological and societal issues of our time checkout open sourced and vox dot com slash open sourced. Find out everything you need to know about the hidden consequences of tech box dot com slash open. unsourced I'm Jillian Weinberger. Who's the impact podcast from talks about? How powerful people affect the rest of us this season? We're looking at the big ideas from all the people running for president in twenty twenty hit this opioid opioid crisis head on public option. move away from Moslem fueled energy efficiency and it's got to be a Great Wall and it's going to work. A lot of those ideas have actually been tried before four like that. Wall trump wants to build the gallows Arizona has had one on its border for decades. I don't understand Dan why individual people have a right to have a fence and yet a country can't Senator Warren's proposal to the OPIOID crisis racists it's based on what we did to fight the AIDS epidemic we would like to name it the Ryan White Care Act and the green new deal. Germany tried something similar in two thousand vis is solution this season on the impact. We have those stories. How the big ideas from twenty twenty candidates worked or didn't work in other other places or at other times? These are the stories that will help us understand what might happen if these proposals get rolled out here in the next four years. Subscribe to the impact on Apple. PODCAST or your favorite podcast APP to get new episodes now ticked kristen. Is this the first time someone in this royal families said like. Hey let's modernize this thing. Let's hit F five and refresh the thing. Well actually prince. It's Charles has been saying for ages. He's been advocating for a more streamlined monarchy. He doesn't want the twentieth in line to the throne belonging on the payroll anymore. He has said repeatedly that he would like the air. And then the heirs heirs to be the main people. Oh who are being paid for out on the world stage. He really believes that. That's what the modern monarchy should be and was that because of his kids or was that just for himself the skeptic uptick would say it's just because he and his kids benefit from it the most but I also think it's because he sees the criticism that is railed against them from the public who say we don't like paying to keep you in a palace we don't want all of our tax dollars to go toward all the things that you could have dripping in jewels flying private jets. We don't want you to have ALP this huge life on our dime when a lot of us are living on the poverty line and he's also is an outspoken environmentalist and he has been for decades now and I think Prince Charles sees a lot of this as wasteful. How're his proposals to modernize the royal family received? I think that some people really appreciate it but I also think that some people forget that Prince Charles is going to be king. The Queen seems like she's going to live forever so Prince Charles says he would like to do this and I think people you know sort of hear it but they don't necessarily surly internalize it that much because Prince Charles actually is not one of the more popular royals a poll that was done in August by YouGov found that after the Queen the most popular Royal Family is actually Prince Harry So then maybe Prince Harry's attempts here to modernize will ultimately be looked at positively tiddly by by the English public. What do you think he'll try and do apart from these three things we talked about which is get out of dodge digital ditch? The salary sorry and have a different relationship with the press. What might living halftime in North America? Toronto Brooklyn next you somewhere. Allow him to do. Oh you live in Brooklyn sorry by you are I you know. I think that he and Megan will be able championed. The causes that they care about without having to run them by the Queen. I who knows what those causes will be. He said out in the open. I am a feminist. I think they're going to talk vocally about racism. I think the British Royal Family is afraid to talk about racism. They have historically gotten onto a boat when they've landed put a flag in the ground and said this is ours and that's frequently land that belonged to Brown people and I can see why the royal family has historically maybe been scared to talk about those things but they need to and when Harry and Meghan are separated from the family a little bit more maybe they can be more on the frontlines of those causes if they they do pull this off. Do you think they will pull it off. They they're going to do it. They'RE GONNA question. You're a firm believer in there anything. Megan Harry WanNa do you. Megan and Harry are going to do. You're so biased. You love what's not to love. I mean the whole thing the whole song and dance. I guess so much of what you're saying is that this whole system is out of whack with like the way the world's going it's stuck in it's tradition for the sake of tradition. People can't even accept that these people wanna make their own choices it seems sorta rotten kristen. Should we just just say all right. Let's dissolve thing and just be boring and have a parliament. No no you already answered your question. I wanted to be boring. Let's have a little. Oh magic let's have a little fantasy. Let's have a little bit of a crazy over there that we can watch from afar. Enjoy at all so when this does become season six. Let's say up the crown. How do you think the people will view it? Then there have been headline saying that. Perhaps he was the one trapped in the tower and needed a princess to save him. I I think that they will celebrate. Megan Harry and see them as one of the great modern love stories of the world sees. Six of the crowd will be a good one. Oh it'll be the best mast. She complete herself. Oh man because there's nobody else beautiful enough in the world play. Her disgust much up disgusting. You mean beautiful. That's kristen minds are is really hoping that Meghan markle moves to Brooklyn. Kristen hosted a royal wedding. podcast called old when Megan men Harry and she currently co hosts a half reality half self help podcast called by the book. I'm Sean Ramos for him and this is half news. Half self-help podcast today explained. I'm helped by bridget. McCarthy Ominous Assadi Halima Shah of themes Shapiro and no on Hassenfeld spelled and the mysterious brake master cylinder helped with music. Olivia extra helps with fact checking. And we're also helped by Gillian Weinberger. She's helping US crank out. PODCASTS CAST in the New Year and Jillions also now the host of the impact from vox. The new season just started. You know those big shiny ideas. The twenty twenty candidates are proposing to make America more functional in the new season Jillian and her team visit all the places. Those ideas have already been tried to find out how they worked or didn't work. You can and should listen to the impact wherever you listen to your podcast. The impact and today explained are part of the VOX. It's media podcast network

William Megan Royal Family Meghan Markle Kristen Megan Markle Prince William Harry Canada Megan Harry Harry royals North America United States Prince Harry instagram Megan Harry Wan Kate Middleton Middle East UK Harvey Weinstein
Replicated: On-Prem Deployments with Grant Miller

Software Engineering Daily

1:03:06 hr | 1 year ago

Replicated: On-Prem Deployments with Grant Miller

"Cloud computing has been popular for less than twenty year large software companies have existed for much longer than that. If your company was started before the cloud became popular, you probably have a large data center on your company premises. The shorthand term for this software environment is on Prem deploying software to your own on Prem. Servers can be significantly different than deploying to remote servers in the cloud in the cloud. Servers and resources are more standardized. It's often easier to find documentation and best practices for how to use cloud services. Many of the software vendors who got started in the last decade created their software in the cloud. For example, read me dot IO makes it easy for companies to create hosted documentation there early customers were startups and other cloud native companies and all of those companies were happy to consume the software in the cloud. As time went on read me found that other customers. Wanted to use the read me product as a self hosted on Prem service read me needed to figure out how to deploy their software easily to the on Prem environment. It turns out that this is a common. Problem software vendors who want to sell to on prim enterprises must have a defined strategy for making those deployments to on Prem infrastructure, and those deployments are not always easy to configure replicated is a company that allows cloud based software companies to easily deploy to on Prem infrastructure. Grant Miller is the founder of replicated, and he joins the show to discuss on prim, cloud and the changing adoption patterns of enterprise software companies. HP? One view is a foundation for building a software defined data center. HP one view integrates compute storage and networking resources across your data center and leverages a unified API to enable IT to manage infrastructure as code deploy infrastructure faster, simplify life cycle maintenance for your servers. Give IT the ability to deliver infrastructure to developers as a service like the public cloud. Go to software engineering daily dot com slash HP to learn about how HP one view can improve your infrastructure operations HP. One view has easy integrations with Tara form coober, netties Docker and more than thirty other infrastructure management tools. HP one view was recently named as CR ends enterprise software product of the year. To learn more about how HP one view can help you simplify your hybrid operations. Go to software engineering daily dot com slash HP. To learn more and support software engineering daily. Thanks to HP for being a sponsor of software. Engineering daily. We appreciate the support. Grant Miller, you're the CEO of replicated. Welcome to software engineering daily. Thanks so much for having me on this show. We have talked about on Prem software many times on prim can mean many things typically means not in the cloud, and this will happen because a company usually get started before cloud computing. So they already have servers so nice. It's a company that doesn't want to move to the cloud because they have sensitive information. There are plenty of reasons why a company might operate its own servers describe how on Prem infrastructure affect the software development of a company. Yes, sir. So we actually have a slightly different definition of on Prem. And we call it modern on prim, and for us what we mean by modern on Prem is basically were sort of defining the cloud as this combination of two things, right? The cloud would be both infra. Structure as a service and software as a service in. So what we see modern on premise, basically, the ability for an enterprise end user to take a cloud native application, so somebody could be deployed as SAS, and instead deploying it into private resources that they control so that could be in a fool on Prem data center, where they actually racked in stack the machines or that could just be the AWS VP C that's owned by the enterprise, and how does that on prim infrastructure effect software development, like how to on Prem companies develop software, relative to companies because I think a lot of the listeners are just used to building on the cloud, and how does experience compare to an on Prem company. Yes. Sure. So the difference would from our perspective really is around, you know, building something that's very portable. So interestingly these worlds have really merged a lot over the last call it five or ten years. In the reason, they've merged is because the technologies that we use to deploy software have really shifted from this sort of like manual operations in bash scripts into systems like orchestration in scheduling platforms such as coober Netease in. So from our perspective, a modern on Prem application is actually just one that has most of the operational knowledge should have baked into its its orchestration and scheduling system, and then becomes portables that it can be installed into an Amazon VP C into Google V P C or into an on Prem data center, basically anywhere that there is programmable compute and storage at the on the other side, right? Okay. So let's talk a little bit more generally about on Prem infrastructure. So in cloud infrastructure, there are lots of of random failures. So the software is orchestrated to be resilient to these random failures on prim infrastructure seems a little bit more. For different because it it's four specific companies. And it's you don't have to deal with this super high volume of earthy workloads in will the workloads. Just vary. I mean, I guess it varies from company to company, but I just like to know a little bit more about the nature of the infrastructure at your average on Prem company do on Prem companies have issues with these kinds of failures at scale. So, you know, this is again is kind of one of these things that's changed a lot over the last five or ten years right in the reasons changes because the lines have really blurred between what is on premise infrastructure in. What is cloud infrastructure? Right. So you've seen this recently with some of the cloud providers even releasing sort of on Prem versions of their infrastructure tools. So, you know, Google offers g k on Prem Microsoft has had as your stacks for awhile. And then you've seen, you know, things like like Amazon released their they call it outposts more recently, and that's an. Sample of like an infrastructure sort of back end becoming available to be deployed anywhere. But even before that right like VM ware compute was programmable that was in the data center. And so as compute became programmable in the data center, these sort of like, this fault toleration has really become much more of a global concept than it is just a cloud concept. Right. And I think even things like p ks which has pivotals Cuban any service or before that what they did. With cloud foundry taking a lot of these same concepts of cloud, no development, deployment in bringing it to any environment. Right. So, you know, alternately, you know, the AWS infrastructure is on Prem for Amazon, right like Facebook. You know, their infrastructure is on Prem for Facebook Google instructors on Prem for them. And then for our perspective, it's just about who's actually controlling the software that's running on those servers. Right. So when we think about modern on Prem what we're talking about is the ability. For a application vendor. You know, think about as a SAS company packaging up their application as a cloud native application. So that's using Kuban at ease in sort of these primitives that we've defined to create truly reliable applications, and then delivering that to an enterprise who can install it into on Prem data center of EP see in run a fully private instance of that application, but instead of having to operate the application so manually like they would have done twenty years ago. They're actually leveraging all of that automation and orchestration in scheduling that's baked in something like Kuban Eddie's manifests to actually operate the application. So what you see now is the ability for instead of just like sending along the the bits. You're actually sending the sort of like know how the automation to actually deploy in scale and self heal that application when it's running in the end user environment. Nee you mentioned with Cooper, Netease, the importance of a platform as a service. Layer even at the on Prem companies, although I guess coober name this is kind of a layer beneath that, but whether we're talking about coober netties or open stack or cloud foundry or Mesa's fear or open shift. There are these software tools that give a on Prem infrastructure environment. The feeling of being a cloud where the operations team can set up and manage a cloud foundry or Mesa sphere and give in give instances give server resources to that layer. And then the developers within the company can request resources from that layer, and it can feel to some extent like a cloud provider. So we do have this this on Prem infrastructure that makes things feel like a cloud, and we also have some on Prem companies. They're adopting the cloud. So it's it it is obviously this heterogeneity of different on Prem versus cloud versus hybrid. Cloud deployments that we're seeing more and more of tell me about the difficulties that some of these on Prem companies have when it comes to software installation and procurement like if I'm a developer at one of these on Prem companies there are challenges to me getting whatever kind of software. I want running on the infrastructure at my Bank or insurance company or healthcare company. Whatever company I work at that has this on Prem infrastructure. What are the challenges that I encounter as a developer when I'm trying to get whatever software. I want to do the job on my on Prem infrastructure. Yes. Sure. So we kinda talk about the evolution of enterprise software in this regard. So you know, when you look at what enterprise software twenty years ago, it was basically that some organization would like create these, you know, jar files or files and then distribute those two. Enterprise end customers, and then the end user, right? The enterprise IT admin was responsible for racking and stacking machine setting up though power supply, the operating system, you know, everything else Runtime databases, installing those packages all the dependencies, and then keeping that all managed and they were doing that in a very manual way. Right. So like some system went down your sequel server had a had a blip, you know, your db a would SSH into that machine in like make some make some changes. Right. And so that created this very operationally intensive sort of like overhead for these enterprise IT Edmonds in so as a result, they weren't running a whole lot of enterprise software, applications, you know, maybe you had your AARP your CRM and your exchange server, but like that was about it because you had to have, you know, IT teams scheduled around the clock in you know, sort of follow the sun support in order to make sure that those systems stayed up because it was so manual, right? And so what you saw when Benny off introduced the sass model is that that really took that operational overhead and instead of. Every enterprise IT org. Repeating the same work to keep the services up. It's centralized that work by the to the application provider. Right. The SAS company, and so that model became pervasive for the last fifteen twenty years, and you know, what you've seen since that this is sort of a Cambridge explosion of of SAS applications. So there's a different SAS tool for everything you might wanna do in the world, right? It's created this huge productivity gain. Because you know, I no longer have to write every piece of software. I can just go use some service, and I don't have to think about running it either. So over time what's happened is that those applications have created in analogy, the average enterprise has over thousand different SAS applications, you know, in their organization, and when that creates this huge amount of surface area. So if you think about a single organization right using thousand different vendors, what you've done is you've taken all this data, and you've basically replicated at across all these different environments, and so the security posture of your your weakest vendor. Actually becomes the security posture of your data. And so if that data is remotely important, if it has customer records in it, or, you know, now things GDP are if it just has like an Email address in an end user, then you as the person who is sent that data to that application vendor. You know, you sent your information off to Graham, really your notion. Like, you know, these kind of modern hip SAS companies they're now responsible for that data. But you're responsible to your consumer who put that data into your application in. So that situation has caused a fairly untenable, you know, environment for a lot of IT Edmonds. Right. They see. Okay. We're responsible for this data that our customers give us and worse, sending an off to all these other organizations. And so we need to make sure that they're being secure about how they handle it. Right. But that type of vendor assurance is very hard to get on a company. That's, you know, a hundred people or two hundred people you sure, you can in our perspective is you can get the level of security assurance. That you need from the big three cloud providers. Right. That's why we differentiate between infrastructure is a service and software to service because we think that enterprises can trust Amazon, Google Microsoft to actually manage the hardware and use the services that they provide. But then when they want to deploy that Graham, really not that's gonna key. Log all the things that your employees are typing into every text box instead of sending that data off to the grammar Lee servers will why not have that be sent to a private instance, that's managed in your VP. See, and then every time a company like grammar Lee would update you'd get an update notification, and you could apply that to your infrastructure Gramley, doesn't do the so you would have to use some other application a lot of the tools that we actually power are very like specific developer tools. So our platform is used by folks like circle CI and has she core on NPR. I'm cystic to package up their cloud native applications, and then license and distribute it into these large enterprise envir-. Events where can be installed a privately into these VP sees. And what that does that gives the end users control over all that data. So they don't have to think about adding another vendor who then might you know, they need to check into make sure they have PCI compliance in there. You know, whatever data they're gonna put it in the bin ever sending that data vendor. The vendor's sending the application to the enterprise where they're going to run it in this, private instance. 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I recommend checking out triple by dot com slash S E daily because going through the hiring process is really painful and really time consuming. So triple bites saves you a lot of time I'm a big fan of what they're doing over there. And they're also doing a lot of research. You can check out the triple bite blog. You can check out some of the episodes we've done with triple bite founders. It's just a fascinating company. And I think they're doing something that's really useful to engineers so checkout triple bite, that's T R I P L E B Y T E dot com slash s daily. Triple bite bite is in eight bits. Thanks to triple bite and check it out. you're describing to why I love your company, and the example, I I like of one of your customers is read me dot IO, which is run by Gregory kogo co burger who was one of the earlier guests on the show. I really like, Greg. He's just a really nice guy, and he's super smart and just kinda hilarious. So he he has holds a special place in my heart is being in early guest on the show. But let's say I run read me dot IO. I'm Gregory read me dot IO is a is a SAS company that provides read me. So if you have developer facing software, whether they are internal developers or external developers, which is a lot of different companies you need read maze. I don't know if you've ever deployed your own read me to whatever like get hub pages or whatever. But it's like not a great process or like, I'll give a free plug to read me dot IO. Like you should. If you're a developer, and you're listening to this you should at least know that this piece of sass exists. Of course, read me dot IO was a y c company. It was started in the age of selling to SAS company to other SAS companies to other modern post cloud companies and he got traction the company got traction. And eventually they got to the point where we'll there are on prim enterprises that are ready to buy my really nice read me software. So when I get to that point if I'm Gregory, and I've spent years building a sales model and an integration model that targets companies that are on the cloud that are not these quote unquote on prim enterprises. I've got a bunch of software that have already built it's cloud ready. What do I need to do to change? My software to be able to deliver it to on Prem customers. Yes. Sure. So so Greg. Actually wrote amazing blog post about this. It's titled like how he went on premise week right in. So the real key innovation here is not even that much about replicated. It's about orchestration scheduling in cloud native applications. Right. So soon as you start to adopt. These patterns for cloud native, applications, what you're able to do is have a manifest describes all the different components, containers, etc. That you can then spin up install into any environment. Just like you have staging a production. You're you're not installing that by like manually doing things you're just running the automation again. And so that same manifest can be used to distribute enterprise customers. Now, oftentimes what happens for companies agreed me. You know, is that they were leveraging sort of some of these third party API hosted services themselves. So maybe they were using something to send emails out in. So instead they need to to kinda have like this little work around in their code. That says like well if it's an enterprise deployment than makes. Sure that you collect the SIM T P information from the IT admin, and then we'll send emails through the SMTP server that provided by the by the enterprise it. So these little tweaks you have to do along the way that sort of our enterprise integration right thing. You might see is that read me, maybe you have to create an account with your Email address in a password, but you know, in a large IT organization, they'd actually would prefer to manage users through a single sign on service may be held appar- active directory in so you'll have to make some changes for that. Now, we try to offer, you know, we call these like enterprise helper features right things like an elder in active directory integration. So instead of you having to build out all that infrastructure, you just plug into some API's that we created that are available when you're deployed on Prem. So we kinda distribute these with your application to make those integrations easier. So, you know, the key would be for someone like read me just be containerized us in use Docker use Kuban Netease. Then from there it abstract away some of. These like, you know, proprietary systems if you're using Redshift that's going to be hard because that's on a portable in. It's on a portable service at lives in AWS. So you might want to to shift onto an open source alternative, or you know, if you're using Ardy asked her post grad, you might need to use the the public. You know containerize version of post grads or maybe they'll select something like cockroach db or Yuga by which both have post grads compliant. Api is, but our container, you know, kind of cloud native databases, and so you'll need to make some decisions around your application architecture to actually leverage in make the entire peace portable. Yeah. And so this is what you offer to read me and companies like read me is this. I guess you may call it a framework or a deployment platform or a series of steps together with software for getting you and your company to a place where. Where you can offer software to these on Prem enterprise customers. So if you have a product that was built for cloud customers, it's this is a way to get your software amenable to an on Prem deployment. Yeah. Exactly. So if you had a multi tenant application, or even the other interesting thing is what we've seen are companies that have a traditionally on Prem product, you know, maybe they are that jar product that we talked about earlier, you know, that job application, and they wanna be able to do both sass hosted and on Prem deployments. While the best way to do that today is by using cloud native architecture in so they'll reenact their applications in order to to offer, you know, the SAS hosted version, but then once they've done that right? There's a company called Jonah software based up in Portland that it was a really early customer an example of this where they had a traditionally on Prem product have been doing a hosted version for awhile wanted to be able to leverage cognitive architecture with a new. That if they did that they would have this massively complex architecture to distribute down to these end customers with all these micro services. And so they wanted the mass that complexity, but still leverage it into that truly where replicated help them sort of in a similar fashion. But you know, from a just a more modern way to do an on Prem deployment does this assume that the on Prem company can always consume a Docker is or Cooper, Netease, ready version of an application like aren't there some on Prem infrastructure companies that that aren't ready to run Docker containers? Yeah. So we really have two different solutions for this. Right. We think about when you're distributing to customers who are, you know, kind of cloud native themselves. They maybe they have their own Kuban. Eddie's cluster that they want to install your application in we actually just released a really great product to sort of facilitate that right where instead of them deploying the application. As a software appliance. They can actually deploy the application as a fully like integrated with their existing deployment pipelines. Right. So this is the ability to take these manifests and put them in to get repo and then use some type of get ops. Deployment to get those into your cluster. And then anytime the the software vendor updates the application art technology sitting in the background detects. That update it pulls down. The latest version takes whatever custom deployments, set the enterprise wanted to apply and then actually merge those together makes a poor question that same get repo with all of the latest updates into it. Right. So this is one way you can deploy to these super advanced, cloud native companies. But on the other side, you know, is the ninety five percent of the market who maybe isn't ready really familiar with Kuban Eddie's or Docker, and they just want sort of an easy to install and manage solution in. That's the core. Replicated product has always done is. It's. Sort of been a one line installer. One click updates the end customer doesn't have to know anything about Docker anything about Kuban Eddie's. They just sort of run this bash script from their workstation or from the server, and then they are, you know, walk through the setup of this application, the provisioning of additional hosts everything else until they have fully working private instance of that application, you know, in their on Prem data center or in their BP. See I wanna know show about what it was like to build this product. Because if I think about sue. So as you mentioned, some of the the customers, you have the us replicated read, me dot IO is is it won't on the simpler side, if the examples I think you also have things like like assist dig like you mentioned, which is monitoring software or law. Are I think are logging software or like security monitoring software. I think you've got Hashi core which makes like deployment in distributed systems software were there, some engineering difficulty. As you encountered when you were trying to make a platform that allowed such a diverse range of people to deploy to on Prem environments. Yeah. I mean, so we've been doing this for four years. And so when we first started, you know, Kuban Eddie's was was not really been a thing yet right in. So we had to write our own orchestration and scheduling system around Docker containers. That was you know, like, many many companies have done this. It's a lot of work. It's hard. You know, we focused on building a solution. That would really not it wasn't focused on like this huge scale was really more about like, how do you manage the complexity of doing like a five or ten? No deploy. So that was that was a big challenge, you know, at the same time. What are the challenges of the replicated platform was when we first launched like, no one was relieving familiar with Docker Kuban at easier these concepts. So we were introducing, you know, the idea of using containers nor castrations to a lot of a lot of companies, and we'd have help them along that journey in order to get. Cognitive, you know, ready. So no since then we've totally swapped out that original scheduler. Now, we rely primarily on coober netties as the orchestration and scheduling platform the hood. We also have compatibility with Docker swarm because a lot of folks have composed vials for their applications to one of the make that in easy on boarding step. But you know, the challenges really come with make this a solution that can deploy lots of different services in the actual really complex part because honestly, most of the most of the complexity around deploying these solutions is solved by things Kuban Attis Docker swarm, the complex part is how do you make sure that the end customer environment meets all the requirements. Right. So the thing that I think a lot of folks don't realize is that you know, Cooper netties is when it's managed as g k e or you know, AK s there's a lot of services in connection with things like storage that are happening under the hood. That are not just. Aw, Cuban at ease. But are actually part of that offering. And so we needed to reproduce. You know, a basically a out of the box destroy of coober Netease that, you know, had things like no networking solve to we use contour news kube ADM, and we used you know, rook and staff, and so there's just a lot of additional components you had to deploy other than just raw Cuban Eddie's. So so talked about your company we've talked about the problems of on Prem deployments. We've talked a little bit about the engineering. Let's take a step back. Why did you start working on these problems of on Prem deployments? Yes. So my founder, Mark. And I had started the separate company about seven years ago, and that company was pretty quickly acquired by public attracted SAS company called live person. So they kind of created the idea of live chat support on the web until we ran the mobile team there for two and a half years. But while we were there one we learned a lot about the enterprise software ecosystem should how everything works. Works. But the other thing that we saw was there was demand for even a company like live person that had been a public traded SAS company for twenty years. There was demand for an on Prem version of the of the software, and there wasn't really a great solution for distributing, right? Someone you know, maybe one of the package a physical plants. Maybe somebody else thought, you know, we could at least two VM and Mark my co-founder, right? He's really the the architect and and true brains behind replicated, he recognized that with the introduction of Docker that they would be this new level of application portability that we could leverage to actually distribute these applications into these unusual environments. We should realize that problem was bigger than life person. So we left that company decided to start replicated as the you know, sort of way to bring this this concept to to bear for the entire market, and in that time sort of recognized that well, you know, there's this big opportunity here because you know, we we're kind of talking about it before and kinda referencing like financial, sir. Services and health care. And in these companies that were born before the cloud as the primary users of like, quote, unquote on Prem software. But as it turns out, there's actually a lot of very modern companies that prefer these private instances of software. So, you know, if you look at it, a company like coin base is actually kind of known for this where they don't want to use like every, you know, SAS hosted solution because the data that coin base is holding is worth billions of dollars. Right. And so if they are even just giving you the Email addresses of their users, that's a that's potentially a security breach in. So you see companies like coin base or even like, Google and Facebook in Airbnb Uber who would prefer private instances of other people's SAS software to be deployed into their infrastructure, rather than trying to, you know, make sure that that vendor meets all their compliance in and insecurity require. It's if you can deploy private instance of the software in in. It's the same operational overhead is using the sapling nation. Why would you ever send that data off to the SAS render when you can protect it and keep it into your own VP? See where that data already lives commes is actually uses replicated, right? Yes. A coin base. You know, went on the record a couple years ago talking about how they used several different applications through replicated. Right. So they'll use our technology to deploy private instances of these different applications into their own generally, probably VP. See, you know, I have details on where the deploying this up occasions. But you know, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a VP see more often than not because most of the time these end customers are not actually deploying it into a physical data center, but they're using their own AWS PPC, your Google VP. See, and then just deploying private instances of the software there that way, it's you know, it's kind of preventing the application vendor. From from ever seeing the data Thebes E S acronym for virtual. Private cloud. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So it's a term that that Amazon introduced at first, and then Google has think everyone's kind of you know, started to use it. But the idea is you kind of talked about earlier where on Prem data centers, look more like the cloud will VP's make the cloud. Look more like on Prem data centers. Right. And they do this by by saying all the connections and all the that happened internally are not going to be exposed to the public internet. They're going to happen over private IP addresses in you know, through encrypted communication on these like on these private networks. And so what that does is it actually facilitates, you know, a different model of computing where the services don't have to be exposed to the public internet. You can actually still use something like if you've ever have you followed up much around the beyond corporate sort of model of deployment in deployed. Yeah. We've done a couple shows on zero trust networking model. So it's funny when Google launched at that beyond core. Blog post or paper, whatever it was a lot of people thought that they were saying that Google only gonna use SAS applications, and it couldn't be further from the truth. We'll Google saying is they're going to make sure that there is a publicly exposed access point. So an access proxy for every one of their internal applications. Now, those internal applications still all run on private networks, but there's a tunnel between those private networks and that acts sex prosecute proxy. So they're not putting their databases on the public internet with these porch expose those are all on the application layers are all on these VPS's. It's just that there's an access proxy that sits in front of these where you can use that to then get authentication into. So you can get this sort, of course, greened access control from from the internet, and then get into the VP see from there by using things like, you know, a Yuba key, or you know, other username and password based authentication what's the connection between zero trust networking and BBC's that. The like the whole thing about zero trust networking in the way, the beyond Corp described. It was that you wanted to be able to get rid of the VPN. Right. And so no more VPN instead every application that they use has like is exposed publicly internet, and instead they're basically using instead of using VPN secure access. They use these access proxies. So cloudflare has public version of this that they call cloud far access, which we pair internally replicated with another cloth product called Argo. And what this does it takes our Kuban. Eddie's cluster where we run all these private instances of applications, you know, like analytic servers and BI tools end in exposes access to those only through the internet, but you have to come in through this access proxy that cloudflare host for us. And so you're accessing all of these services through the internet, quote, unquote. But there's but the services are actually living in a in a VP, see. And so what it does is it enables a company like replicated or really any organization to not have to use the publicly hosted SAS multi tenant versions, these applications. But instead deploy them privately, and then still secure them and make them globally available by using something like the beyond court model. Okay. Okay. I think got it. So replicated started with this this product the vendor product allowing people to give on Prem customers a version of their software that could be deployed on of EPC or in on on premise environment. That was your first product, and then you moved onto a second product. And the second product is a little bit more subtle, which is replicated ship. And I think to understand replicated ship. We have to talk a little bit about coober netties configuration. So when we talk about the. Configuration of a cougar. Nettie deployment. What are we talking about? Explain what coober Netease, configuration is in more detail. Sure. So there's kind of this broad world of Kuban, Netease, configuration. There's a really amazing white paper written by one of the core. Contributors to Kuban Netease. This guy named Brian Grant in Brian wrote, a paper called I think it's like declarative configuration management for Kuban Eddie's. Yeah. Declared about -plication management and Kuban Eddie's. And with that kind of the paper, basically does gives an overview of all the different options you can use for configuration management, right? You've got models like tempting and you've got heritage. And you've got these patches and overlays, and you know, sort of the state of the art in the Kuban Netease ecosystem to do this sort of configuration management is to use a product like helm, right? Then what helm does is? You know has a lot of different features today in sort of the helm to world helm, three's going to be a little bit more specific help to really basically gives you away. To describe all the different components that you have in your cluster in template out the different things that you might want to have someone else the amount of change per environment. Right. The reason this matters for replicate is because oftentimes helm shirts are the best way to share amongst the community or from an application vendor to an enterprise that wants to run a private instance of of an application in their own criminals sculpture, it's a way to share the application and sort of this package that can then have different values applied this values. Jamil file, right? So I think you can think about Helms a fairly analogous solution to what we've seen in the past configuration management. If that chef and puppet Nantel where you identify the options that you might want to configure, and then you use these values vials to actually override those values per deployments is kind of like customer supplied values or collected in this values dot camel. And so that's kind of been what? What most people do for configuration management? And specifically when you're deploying a third party component that somebody else wrote that helm chart for right? The challenge is that when somebody else writes configuration management, I if you've ever used, you know, Ansel galaxy or chef recipes you kind of know that. Well, the first thing you end up doing is oftentimes just forking that the sort of canonical upstream reference, and then making the changes to make sure that it fits into your workflow. Right. So you maybe you're just copying and pasting not even actually forking it. But you're taking the exposed near the rawal sort of chart, and then you're making your own custom edits in line. And then now you have this this fork of that sort of configuration, but it works in your environment. Right. That's a is that a fairly common pattern. You're familiar with. I wouldn't say I'm familiar with it because I'm not a programmer, but I mean at this point like, I don't write much code. But it it sounds. Assistant with what I have heard from various interviews. Yeah. So this is like a very common workflow, right? Oh, you find helm is great to helm like came on the scene. It was super needed like it added actually filled. A lot of the gaps in a at. He's like a platform. Overall did things like upgrade in rollbacks. And just it's really powerful tool. But over time, you know, the Kuban Eddie's API has gotten a lot more powerful. And it's kind of like there's some overlap now between that functionality. And then you've also just started to see where you know, again, everyone is copying pasting these these helm charts in making their own version. And so the the biggest challenge that creates is that when you take a forked helm chart and now the upstream updates. You're basically trying to manually reconcile the difference between the version that you created and the new version that came from upstream, and that's this like complex manual toil type task right? We're like, okay. I got to figure out what changed what did I do to mind and. What's what's updated in the new one? And then so people often don't even do it. They just like maybe they'll update the images, maybe we'll do something else. But this becomes a thing that, you know, like, the cluster operator ends up being responsible for this entire for Tom chart. And so we never thought that was a great experience. And then Brian's paper, you know, beyond just actually describing all of the sort of existing solutions for configuration management, actually lays out a fairly comprehensive overview of a new way to do configuration management. That's declarative, and it sort of comes out that he wants this system of patches and overlays to work. And so this we started we really love this paper. We started working some of the concepts into what we're building it replicated and then Google open source to project called customize with a K that actually implements almost this entire paper. Right. And so what customized did that? So so potent so different is that said look like you can you should have. Configure if you'd be able to take an upstream configuration and then instead of needing to like copy and paste it in make edits to it directly. You should be able to edit it or like customize it by describing a patch. And a patch is is like a little snippet of Yambol that together with this tool can actually be used to traverse the application, Kuban enemies manifest, and then make changes inside the manifest, so it sort of done as a sect, you're basically separating out the configuration changes that you might wanna make to that application manifest and writing it separately in the beauty of this system. Is that by separating those things out anytime the upstream actually updates? You never changed it. So you can just update it directly, and then your patches can still traverse the new version of that of that updated manifest and apply. The changes that you want have. Mongo DB is the most popular non relational database and is very easy to use. 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It's the perfect amount to get going with that side project that you've been meaning to build you can try out service with mongo DB service is in emergent pattern. It's something that you wanna get acquainted with if you're a developer and getting that ten dollars and free credit to have a service platform right next to your mongo database is really a great place to start so good a manga db dot com slash SE. Daily claim that credit and thanks to mongo DB for being a sponsor of software. Engineering daily. I love mongo DB. I use it in most of my projects, it's just the database that I wanna use. Thanks to mongo DB. The core. Will you're what you're saying. Is there with the the way that many people have ended up in their coober netties deployments? And they're Cooper netties. Get management is that they are hitting merge. Conflicts, our branch conflicts with the way that they're updating their configuration files has they'll configuration files will end up diverging from the project that they're that they are based on some open source projects that they're based on. And then when the open source project has an update they get a merged conflict. Yeah. Exactly. The reason you get that merge. Conflict is because it's basically impossible for a helm chart to describe all the different like little things that a that a cluster operator might want to configure about that chart helmed, by the way, this is a description of a distributed. System's deployment like basically distributed application that would go onto your coober Netease. Clustered exactly it's a way to like kind of they call it the package manager for Kuban Eddie's, which is a really powerful concept if you can package up distributed applications into a single sort of artifact or something that you can then use to to deploy it, that's really amazing. But the challenge with this is that as the chart maintainers, I can only like make configure -able so many different options, and the, you know, so thin as a someone who wants to operate that application if I wanna make any changes, right? If I wanna use other parts of the Kuban Eddie's API that are not tempted in that original helm chart, or I want to add in integrate, a CRD, right, which are these custom resource definitions that are really popular way to extend the Kuban his API than what I have to do is basically copy and paste or fork that original helm help chart. Make all my you know, updates in the now, I'm stuck managing that entire. Helm chart right in that that's been just how the world has worked for the last however, many years, but it doesn't have to be inside. And it's not like that anymore with this new tool that Google introduced this new sort of methodology that they introduced with customize into and it's actually being integrated fully into Kuban, Eddie. So you'll be able to just coop. Cuddle apply any folder with a customisation dot Yamil in it. And it will just know how to native -ly traversed the application manifest with these updates that you wanna make and it just want reinforces a little bit more. Because this is like people are I'm sure there are some listeners right now. We're like what the heck is. I'm so lost right now. This is some you know, even people who are who are working with coober Nettie. So like, let's take an example like Lincoln d so if I am deploying a service mash like Lincoln D onto my coober Netease cluster. I might want to customize it I might have some custom configuration changes that I wanna make to Lincoln d and then later on link. Is going to be updated. And I'm going to have some issues there. Can you just explain why this different form of configuration management would be useful for project likely after? So basically, our our perspective is that helm charts. So in the Lincoln, d helm chart should describe sort of the basic way to get Lincoln d up and running in your cluster in the sort of canonical way. However, what you see over time is that these helm charts end up expanding. So if you look at permits ius, I think the first premier Theus chart the values Yama was maybe four hundred fifteen lines today. It's over a thousand lines and the reason for that is because as the community has started the use it more and more custom configurations. Right. So you to access different parts of the Kuban. Eddie's API what you have to do. Like, you say I wanna use, you know, pod security context, which is a sort of not super common. But like maybe ten percent of the of end users might want to use that as a thing they define well if that's not in the. Original chart than first thing. I'm gonna do is four kit ad pod security context into my deployment. And then I'm gonna manage that. Maybe I'm gonna make a poor request into the upstream with that change into it. And so you know, what permits he has has done is accepted a lot of these. You know, make this configuration you'll type poor request. So they're constantly managing all these poor quest to make some new attribute configure Bill and they're doing that. Because basically, it would as it turns out that like basic deployment of you know, a project is not what people end up using for the production, deployment they end up having. You know, maybe that's what ninety percent of it is, but they end up adding their own custom ten percent because they do things a little bit differently. And so as everybody adds their own custom ten percent, the the you end up with this huge and complex, you know, helm chart and the way to avoid that is say well instead of accepting all these upstream poor request to extend an. Spos- template versions of all these different components. We should have everyone add in their own customisations, you know, themselves and manage those customisations externally. So that's what customized tries to introduce and then replicated ship, which is the open source project that we created a really operationalize is that. So it says it's going to help you create a, you know, one of these customisation files by by pulling in a helm chart tempting out all the Yambol giving you deployable Kuban enemies, manifests that you can click into and then make little updates and we're gonna like pre calculate all the patches for you. And then we're going to save that in a way that you can deploy at your cluster straightaway. And if you want we'll actually watch the upstream repo and anytime the upstream updates so the upstream permit the chart updates. We're going to download those updates. We're gonna take your your patches merge. Those on top of the updated version and then make a poor request into your private get repo with all of the the updated manifest. N your custom configuration still preserved. So you're going to get these automated poor quests every time you update the application or the options updated from upstream. This is not something this only useful for on Prem companies. Right. This is like for anybody. Who is doing just who is using a lot of different open source projects within their Kuban Eddie's cluster. Yeah. Exactly. So this is this is a tool that we created basically for any committees cluster operator. Ultimately, our vision of the world is that we will all run private instances of applications, maybe hundreds or thousands of different private instances about locations in order to run those we need a system like coober Netease to to actually manage the operational overhead in to make sure this is all automated, right? And so in order to have a world where there are thousands of private instances, both, you know, open source and commercially supplied applications while we need to operationalize. This better, and we need to operationalize this in a way that I can add these custom configurations without needing to fork, everything and take over all this operation management. So ship is designed to really focus and reduce the amount of Yambol that a cluster operator is managing right. Because if you fork the permit Theus helm chart, you're taking over, you know, like tens of thousands of lines of Yambol. And if you just apply a patch. Maybe you're going to manage, you know, a hundred lines of Yambol, right? And so the amount of like actual, you know, Yemen under management for a cluster operator, who's who's forking, you know, Helms charts versus one who's using, you know, replicated ship plus customize is going to be orders of magnitude different. Right. So you mentioned a few interesting things there. I I wanna understand your your vision for what your company does because you've got to products right now. And if I squint I concede him similarities between those overlap between them. The first one is like we said this product for allowing SAS company to have on Prem software. The second one is this configuration management tool would is the business like what's the long term business vision? What's your vision for what replicated becomes? Yes. These two are actually very tightly linked in the reason they're tightly linked is if you can imagine the current vendor solution, right? Like, you need a way for applicant proprietary applications to package up in distribute into the same kind of workflow. Right. So if we think about ship is the future of replicated and a cluster operators are using it to to automatically manage the third party components that they're deploying into their cluster. Those third party components can be you know, these open source solutions like Prometheus, but they could also be, you know, a private instance of great. All right. So great -als actually in application vendor. That uses replicated. And then distributes their applications through the replicated ship platform. So their end customers can run Griddle enterprise in an existing rented cluster next to a lot of other different applications that are deployed net cluster and the way that they distribute that in license it and keep it updated and have all these release notes come through is by using the replicated vendor tooling in order to distribute it down to them. I see let's start to wrap up and talk more about the broad world of I guess how infrastructure is being reshaped by coober netties and the cloud. These are like these two forces that are so strong. They're having an obviously Kuban as in the cloud are are related to one another, but they're really reshaping how softwares procured they're changing the power dynamics of different companies. Is it hard to be a vendor in this space? There's a lot of noise, but there's also a lot of money. Being spent what has been your experience building a business in the midst of all this change. Yeah. I mean, so change is great for startups. Right. Because what happens is all the traditional vendors kind of Shaked shaken up, and it creates new opportunities for a startup to come in find the solution to problems that haven't been solved in the past. Right. Like the idea of automated poor quests for every time. You're third party. Applications update is only possible because we have a Cooper Netease API. That's well defined and understood right? And it's only in that it makes possible the idea of this declarative configuration management the customize provides in. So you know, there's all these changes that are happening in the market. And if you're if you're paying close enough attention, you can actually see the ones that are really creating these like platform shifts, right? And these platform shifts are. What new big businesses are built on? So, you know, we look for those all the time in the reason that we're constantly paying attention to what's going on in the community's ecosystem is because it's moving so fast. And it's creating so many different opportunities. Right. It's really shaking up, you know, everything that's happening and infrastructure, and we think the next thing it's really gonna shake up is, you know, is the sassy co system. Right. I mean, the funny thing is that a lot of people a lot of investors really believed that you know, that sass has a bright future because the amount of software spend on Prem software. Still enormous writing the sassy co systems maybe a hundred billion a year and the on premise systems about three hundred fifty billion a year. And so, you know, most investors would tell you that those were those worlds, you know, it'll become SAS everything at some point and replicated what we seize that's probably more shades of gray than it is black and white, right? And so. We see a world where folks coin base or large financial institutions or governments or really just any company that knows that their data that they have is important. We see a world where they can run. You know, these private instances of applications in a Kuban. Eddie's cluster secured through beyond court model done in a way that it doesn't take any additional like operational know-how from their IT team to manage a thousand different applications that are deployed into that cluster. Right. And it's just automated in a way that it's running. You know, maybe there's a there's operators and CRD's that are acting behind the scenes to help, you know, keep databases going in a more self healing way in. So we see this sort of new frontier of enterprise software. And you know, we're we we know that the the demand is there from the end users, right? Like, there's a huge amount of of spend that's happening in. The space, and we know that not many other folks are really focused on what does it take to enable application vendors to make this transition into go from, you know, maybe a traditionally sass model to be able to offer, you know, these private instances for enterprises to deploy in these sort of more complex environments. Right. And so that's what replicated really focuses on. And you know, that's what we're trying to help bring them market. All right. We'll grant it's been really fun talking to you. And I think you got a bright future in in your business. It's really interesting company. I think the space it's so big. It's like people I've seen people try to size the market of life, cloud native or cloud software or Cooper, Netease market. I don't think it's like sizable at this point. I think it's just gonna grow and grow and grow and grow so big there's so much opportunity. It's so true. It's funny. I think you get that ask that question a lot, right? Like what's the size of? The market. And it's like, well, I mean like, you know, the economy, I don't know like what's the answer? It's like it's like, right? You know, if software it's the world and Cooper Netease each software. Right. Like, you need you need automation right in its twenty. I was always tell the story around why communities matter so much because reference the Twitter fail. Did you remember when when Twitter the like they used to see the fail all the time? I do of course. Yeah. In like that was what ten years ago? Right. And that was this big successful Silicon Valley company in the couldn't figure out how to deploy reliable software. Right. I mean, hell Salesforce still puts out like service interruption updates on their website that they're gonna take their site down. Right. Like we ten years ago. We didn't know how to build reliable software like really, no one. Did. We didn't have the primitives has said, no one. But one company knew how to build reliable software, and it's why if your internet feels flaky you go and you ping, Google dot. Tom to see if it's up, right? Internet's working you trust that Google is up more more likely than you trust your internet is up right in. So what happened was Google took this system? They wrote all the software in order to to make their their services reliable. And when they did that, you know, they called it board, and it was basically container orchestration. And then they open source did his Kuban Netease. And they gave this primitive to the world that now allows anyone to create truly reliable software. Right. I mean, they wrote the book on it the SRA book site reliability engineering, right and with this primitive. So, you know, the kind of circling back to Twitter they took the concepts. I could go is using and they built their own version of it. They caught it mazes right in kind of like, you know, they took the maze project, and they really, you know, use that internally as they used a solution that was contained orchestration in scheduling in order to solve their fell well problems. But now more and more companies, you know, have access to to build truly reliable software and. That's going to just change. What's what how we think about? How we use off wear. Right. So the opportunity is just enormous. Okay grant. We'll great talking to you. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah. Thanks so much have your oven. This podcast is brought to you by wicks dot com. Build your website quickly with wicks wicks code unites design features with advanced code capabilities. So you can build data driven websites and professional web apps. Very quickly. You can store and manage unlimited data you can create hundreds of dynamic pages, you can add repeating layouts make custom forms call. 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What Singer Aymee Nuviola Left Behind for Her Art

Latina to Latina

24:27 min | 1 year ago

What Singer Aymee Nuviola Left Behind for Her Art

"Then the a dog we hoping Sour Ada the one episode. Because you saw the future school but I Remember Going Away Lau phone surfing side good size. So no-go up a son Edison. I may know Viola is known for her ability to change up her vocals on the fly. She's been called less than Mundo. She brought the iconic Salina Cruz to life on the small screen and one Latin Grammy for best tropical cropped fusion album. Her latest project journey through Cuba explores the many sounds and genres that define music on the island bottom line. I May as the type of artist who up ends NARA labels. You will notice. This is our first bilingual episode. I asked the questions and the language I most comfortable in English and I may responded in the language. She's most comfortable in Spanish. Thank you so much for for being very saying to you for inviting you come from a family of musicians. Your mom played the piano. Your Dad loved to sing thing. You started playing the piano at three years old. Did you have any choice but to become a musician. It grew up in and calmly of machines. Everybody Piano play another instrument. Everybody compose songs. My Hi Morgan Puzzles for kids I feel an attraction for other things you bring. Sour widow said many cope with said its goal battle. Nor you get at least hard before being the and the in my family everybody played music on talk about music and it made meals. You know the time and also see yoga. Say They won't underwhelming Mina E LA RUSSIE DOT COM. You know come to who tasks and don't say as mere mono by now isn't going to be monitoring beyond or you're going to be. I don't know come. We are most Component here the company. I gotta see on. Yeah well would say. I'm more familiar. The formula group after me and money. You'll see tonight decide to resent in the BRAHMA. Emma told Munoz Gonda everything he got anonymous. I said No. He said WELL FORMOSA COMAS MANON THAN WE EASTER ING. All of you and everybody big onto know about us. I and that act took you outside of Cuba being away from Cuba for for the first time. What surprised you most everything I remember? Going to the store at Dubai choose was when I so store with juice I'd say about in southern Mississippi Tower most other plaque on the Moro Bay hang. This deal yank the uncle now. It's the Komo remind reminded Ada I normal but it also says Nelson the annual. He does say I don't know how he took his own who are also associated. He will win those dinning at time. GEICO COSI but I don't go defending the of course I mean. Then how did it change your relationship up to the island when you had to go back. No no no change my relationship with my island because I understand that the Mike contrary is my country no by change my mind. I understand that Casey Lewa but you'll be said accommodate no Soviet to aside but you saw USA which are under seemed to be how we beating Cobra Circassian but it the way things are we ain't to go with your daughter so Yemomali starbucks Solo. They see him Weena. Mom I know me like it though says at One leg they say ambassador caulking. There's no middle go ahead go familiar. Nickel Muhammad Taepo Dong Blue Lanes here and are GONNA cost us Guy Ya but all seeing a a top dog we're GONNA win in the opening salvo Ada ain't GonNa Persona know this because you saw the future school. No look. I need and all work on the bus. I'm a temple but I remember going away as we'll do allow if only Cy so no gear up our son. Get you know you are going. It remained Louie. DMZ lasala Warwick one. You spent many years going back and forth between Cuba and the United States. What happened in you made a decision to make the United States your home but he met a bus Harem which causes your twin? Randy's at the end by decide to go to Mexico trying to find more music more opportunities to to make our work go to Mexico to consume and staying uncle died four years for almost five. Oh I deals waiting for more opportunities and one day is in no. This is not the way we have to Angang income going. We have work good work on good morning because he said therese take place and everybody. Yes go to hotel. Allison one to the end in your your everything. No no Soto. Sorry Amici Noha say reader and doll all said they see the Eagles Jersey monarchic throttle on grant contract with animals in the ogre. Any Tony and decide decide to go to United States crossing the bore so Tommy about crossing the border crossing borders difficult nobuko owner Camelia Dhabi an offer. Oreo say governor up a soreness. ABC Plumbing Marylou out. But I get army but you'll see the article. New Era affords the sale. The Solomon Tatum at the moment on gone. 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What a responsibility? Yes very big just it how did you prepare for that rule and in preparing for it. What did you learn about her? That you didn't know when you're the wick. Say Embassy galling people to know her a Very close for example her manager or my body you on the he bring to me A.. B. Deals photos at all authority Hanadova goals are productivity. And say you do be there with the and the Rita Cavalier who had to Alida so minus so godless hookah racer laminating me now. I mean Paul so the member co can get down. Is it done in this area. Local soap on a way to say borrowed must have already faces. AH APPOINTMENT DOT COM. I don't WanNa see your imitation of you. Think you don't say yo La am the Hokusai based on our main thing. He may may really impress. Your new is a Fort Logan Being Apple Dalen Wayland Pero market. Oh my fee. Mutual is so historic data. LEMONADE AND LA and I'm on a said that he had the Hanky Komo impede our our. Yep It'll target young persona. They didn't know about Dumont about Graham. Kim Boyce said almost you know yes. He forgot me say that the people will come. Do Jags Thea Andrea you. Let's talk about your new album journey through Kua only took you music journey through a museum really Langley Open album with John. John feels like LOVES KISS TO THE ISLAND IT would i. aww It's such an iconic song. Why Open with that song? Because he's a very famous own typical from when Social Globe Sandwich assign. You're a Bozo. Mapa album has been compared to a a demo. Seattle mostly got one then yet they known unseal ghetto got got us on the the going pretty maid. I feel like you are just grabbed us from the in terms of the instrumentation on most to the songs. There's a cleanliness to it. That really allows you to focus on each instrument and it feels like you're going back to the origins of the essential Cuban sound. What did you want the listener to get from the choices that you made? But he metagogued dog. I also WANNA K- setup. Da Not being so you'll get la Mosca one case elegant get the name Seniority Yoga DNA a de la the A. C.. You don't get that on my side. I'm being daycare. Nick Mugabe's firing and Dan ekit buoyed by the which us on our old US Ecuadora hours other things remorse by say though. Joe Louis C.. Either a price in my report. PUT-DOWN MUSICA Mundo Song. It only fairly cool. CNI Geena though say Yoga. mcaddo Yoga ghetto his sokolac-han thank winter. RISOTTO DEDUCT THEY WANNA get up in the in the medical side Mak- Aena them being able to Hamblur Chan Chan domain does gain some weight Kokomo Gill the ugly. I'm odio. He ended up being attacked gluttony. They said they that Amona leg dribble guard owner Coffee will the is lying on it. They'll say not any when the Komo Kobe suborning they'll find I'll say to fake like like whether it be on equal one of at least Sequoia Day so it'd be the at break that will add the album paired with a documentary. You've also on television by some measures. You've done everything everything. So what do you want to do next. Demo body appropriate. The local died at that hour and intimates. Immortal remain to subway. You see God Gog and want to get out the penny tax in Guatemala Anytime Mondo the Dole team boss eager they really who is one automating the way to the gate. What a Memento Sarasota brigade dough life say? What does your name be will but a local Monaco dinner with them being at your neutral immunity? You'll be overweight him. We will also a Catania. Jiang Italy Cobra Marzio Latin e Calcio. And it can go turning what Auburn. UCON Koala says he will lead Sereno Northrop Decor Rafic reporter. MOMENTO forgotten promoted to be dial he he has to say es La defending the hand it over limbo are cigar. He Yoga came. You've got to get him. Which available that game if that Eko? When I'm ready to see a more people than we know how also if the Lombardo Doriot which Dow Novoye Time thank you thanks as always for joining US Latina to Latina? Tina is executive produced and owned by Julie Williams and news. Maria Murielle is producer Karleena. Rodriguez is our sound engineer and a Forbes orbs is our assistant producer we love hearing from you so email us at Ola at Latino Latina Dot Com and remember to subscribe or follow us on Radio Public Apple podcast podcast. Google podcast Pandora spotify or wherever you're listening and please leave a review. It's one of the quickest ways to help us grow as a community sir.

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Episode 31: Api Life

Larachat Live

58:20 min | 3 years ago

Episode 31: Api Life

"Everybody. Welcome back to another chat at number thirty one. We are being consistent in this time. He though. Though in terms of our guest to you got a regular, Eric, you know, dander, ADL the be always have. And oh. Oh, I love your shirt Eric wearing Atlanta chat shirt. And then we both the gone knew her thing se been on the show before I guess now that we're going more of a panelist vote TJ at one of our new panels is going to be on a more regular unless he moving like you laugh time. Yeah. I mean, I'll be around. Awesome. Well, DJ to show and thank you for becoming one of our regulars and bringing sexy beard with you. I can't grow beard. I have questioned about Eric's had Jeanette air is worth the growth right here that this is all I must muster up after a year just this year here. Shameful? I welcome back here again in terms of what we're going to be Kachima today. API a life in the not oh for sure. Male love API's love. What you start? I mean this. Central wide range topic. And I'm pretty sure that we're going to go or we're going to hit our Mark. And I'm going to be like crap so much lower that I wanted to talk about and just know it a widow where do you wanna start? Let's let's start with controversial question. Do we think API's are overused today or do we not think for their leveraged enough? I don't know. I feel like they're appropriately used I mean, there's a if you think about it. There's with a big push towards like micro services, and, you know, front end frameworks like view and react. I think I think it's like a it's not too much or too little. I think it's probably about the right amount right now. We think that depends on the developer. Not a single developer boat. The Asian of a yard or multiple developers in terms of how they interact with the, you know, one of my projects that with using UJA of the front end calling level. I and one of the things that we did we're going to be skirted. Oh, we had, you know, St. who leave I called to get data of the user profile of users, and then the client came along and Klay one and how. Extra links for the user. We not talking about it or they don't maybe within thinking that can eat the I call. We had the second call to very to the we get either loading on the co file API. I n twenty to get a user profile information and an update their length and any other related ADA, then because it with a an age, for example, we had a drop down of all the different links. They late type then fake or move. Whenever eight not only the second API called because to us. It didn't make sense control at all in one, and then decline came back with more and more class than we came to a point where we had like ten eighty I calls to to get this, you know, common data in phila- down than our options and so forth in in hindsight. I wish we had not done that because we're incurring a cost of anything oil. Maybe I call whether if not Illinois which can compete. At the time incurred with that. So. I don't know for not trying to get all requirements fun. But sometimes you can only get that clients to know what they wanted to see it. I feel it. Sometimes they didn't over you and to like, awesome again, you view through this. Awesome API. And then and then in the end, it didn't really save much time. It added more of a headache jerky. You don't feel like I appreciate what you're saying. Especially from the heavy perspective. Because if if you're more of a traditional coder in your used to everything be basically, local the idea of having to to make API 'cause every time you want to fetch data or posted a back can seem overwhelming and you're right. API can give an Rulli pretty quickly, especially if they're not well thought out ahead of time. This is where you really start to see good architecture and put in place like you've really start to see developers who think through problems completely as opposed to developers who are trying to resolve the issue in front of them. I think API's are not designed for those developers enough from a development perspective because you really have to you really have to look down the road when you're developing API's. But my question to you is with that overhead. I mean, do you to me API's add flexibility? So if I if I'm developing an API chances are let's say you to create a user profile the chances are down the road. My idea is that I'm not doing too. Wait that user profile in one place. Like, I'm gonna I wanna have the flexibility of calling the API from other locations either in my application, or if I want to expose it externally from outside may -application. I think if idea is that the the functionality is going to be local and always be local I perhaps API's lost on ya. That's kind of how I feel. I mean, what was that? Where you're going like, I was at the plan with what you guys are trying to accomplish to to create a service that was consumed by multiple in points. In the beginning. Yes. We like the Uber and only wanted it to be able to be called anywhere. We needed uterus information. And I I'm out to get work and the difficulty came on like the create and edit patriots really need needed like the drop down to help. If you like creating a user river drop down to then you would flip to say, this you for information is male female, the gender, a gender one other things we have, you know, height weight. Little bit. They were we were pulling more from information. So I think the hope hall create Nettie page if I had to do it again, probably wouldn't be on Apia, maybe that needs to be. And then that goes into the next question. Do you go fully unite or do you like what do you? How do you have that? Yeah. I mean, I look at it. And I actually like really appreciate how Eric phrased it. I think it's a big mindset shift going from somebody who works primarily with let's say a standard or standard issue like Lear Vel, install where you're you're just posting right to your controllers or in your rendering out, you know, blade templates. I think going to an API I or in a PI primary approach is is a big mind, like a big state of mind shift that you've got to really think about things different, and you really have to sit down and do a lot more planning. You really have to model your data. I don't think you necessarily have to do a ton of it up front. But when you get, you know, new requests in you APR's can evolve. And as you get new requests in you have to take a look at all of your other data models, like all the different attributes of user decide. All right. You know, maybe these links are separate endpoint. But maybe they are really tightly. To the user. So maybe we always return them with the user like, it's you you gotta take a step back in in plan. A lot more even just through like a regular evolution. You can start small. And then let it grow big over time. But you always have to take a step back in in really think about what makes sense in the data model lean to your responses. Your input validation, your endpoint planning. There's a lot of planning. And I think a lot of times people when they go to build API's you'll end up with something that is really slapped together. But to build a good API takes a lot of planning in a lot of thought. And if you put that in I think, it's totally worth it. China and on the whole hunting thing, like even Vic nodding PI and being able to plan up front in my mind, like incredibly valuable like whenever project has like a two week sprint, and we planned up front, and we went to work, and there was like two day in and we were done now that we get. Finding is absolutely amazing. If if you have the time to pull it off in near the ability to save so much worse enough, much planning on. Like, I don't know putting together take than finding on end up. The actual end the Gatien into the thing. You don't envy, you wanna talk about wet sockets in your EP. I Mike owner whatever. Lurch at number would talking books using web talk. Few get Eyo when it changes. That's an interesting thought I've never done that personally. But I'm curious if you guys have ever you'd web pockets within an API to kind of workload. You know, I haven't done sockets. But I kinda wanted to add an additional point to kind of what we're talking about, you know, as far as planning with an API when you build an API really what you're doing is. You're creating a contract you creating a contract to all of the consumer is like AP is typically at least the way that I think about them or not short lived. You're going to build an API outlast, whatever front end, you're building. 'cause you're front ends could be adaptable. It can be a front end website. It can be in like an IRS application. It can come from anywhere. So you're creating a contract that needs to be adhered to for a long time. And that alone takes a lot of planning kind of sitting back to the web sockets. I I haven't done it. I've got a project coming up something that I probably will do. I don't know. I think it's super interesting. Yeah. I I applaud that dot com that's putting their perfectly. We knew designing API's. Your your game plan is exactly what you said. This is going to surpass anything any other aspect of the site. So my friend can change how how this API's access can completely change. We can go from a web interface to mobile under face. The idea is that the logic that might as you stated that contract which can be manipulated. But it it's meant to outlast all the front end stuff. That's a fantastic way of putting it. I kind of again side with TJ on this. I explored sockets before in the past not specifically for API's. That's a very interesting use case. I can see. I mean, I mean how how would you exactly use API with? Nope and socket them because an API request in itself isn't inherent get host sort of request. So it's. I mean, I I can see the socket just being like a socket. It's constantly listening for information. But that that's kind of different from from the API request itself. Right. Yeah. Not one hundred percent. Sure how Mike were suggesting immediate comment with pre ov late there. When you in the page. Pre populate was live when the page initially load in any changes using API a medium. You have to learn control you pass the data to the blade, and then you have call to ovulate any extra Measham perhap- in. Then if anything changes or have fit. The thing. Maybe we need to get Mike back on the show here. Kitty, but but just just the nature of API's Java scrip-, I I think a lot of that can be kind of mimic yoki, kind of mimic the behavior of our socket cau-. The much. Sure what it's an interesting concept. I I would need to kind of think through that little bit more on where I would wear would leverage something like that. I think it depends like how you're doing it to could see a socket situation where you're kind of like queuing off requests. So like you load the page with layer vow, and then you're basically queuing up a bunch of HD p requests like in the back end. And then it's coming back through the socket. That's how I could probably imagine it being used is instead of doing it with the Java scrip-, you could kind of do it through the through JavaScript in a socket rather than making HDP requests from the like from the Java script side, you're opening up a socket to the back end. And then in the background, you're making server side requests in the data's coming through a socket. That makes a lot of sense is one of the problem with with the earlier example every cocaine powder where we created more and more more. You got all if our favor with the each one only one or whatever in a she too is. Where it is. Forgetting creek terminology. But what ended we may eat. We the older raid is quench the one requests loads in finisher. Dinette cloned over the net will go but the ATP to had. Mug servants mocal tread. Thank you. Thank you. Unbelievable. Thank goodness. We hadn't you Eric. Silly is as I corrected you a couple of times youth the whole time. Like once he not acknowledging me, I think I have this right? Well, the other the other cool thing that that allows you to do is it allows you avoid cores require cores issues. Because now you're making server side requests rather than trying to do it through the front end. I mean any way that I've ever done it. I tried to avoid making just ri- PI request from from Java. Scrip- I always try to proxy it for a couple reasons you can you can add cashing into your proxy, but mostly you're going to need to send some sort of token, along with the requests, like an authorization token, you may have to add in, you know, if you're using off your client secrets, you know, and being able to proxy that you can attach those in the back end. So they're never exposed publicly. So kind of that sock idea is pretty interesting to just be able to pop that in the front and really stick strictly with server side requests without having to build in any sort of, you know, proxy in through the front end where you if you're using Larry bell. Your Java script is referencing local routes that proxy off to. Your, you know, your internal or some other public API. What you show Tice? Great idea. I would never thought of that whole implementation. In a one one private Italy back in the day was we we we actually use pockets where we have a web page and. Whenever we had a. We'd go and get new data and save it to eight days and didn't maybe on the front having a call eight call every ten seconds or minutes, whatever seen enter new data socket. So when. When the back end today the message forward, I we really know for sure redone, the message foreign and from the union ordered about and then the on the hand with listening in the sock at the thing. We doing my send all the data through the kit. What we did. We sent a message like, hey there from new data. Go get it on the front end. When when that message would repeat we then made an API call to are actually the I to get new data, and then it did our eight accordingly. Mike when talking about it sounds like, but my thing hit with more on owning the P shlo-, which would have been great in arcade. Because like I said it was one after another. They take ten to twenty very. It's not very can depending on the rally feed in the computer too low that really frustrating. Bit of how the separation of the front end the back end. Really, cool and VPI development. Of the five point five the. Class and. No. P need up in Vancouver. Did a chat about it. And it basically if you repeat leaks frapp cul aphids transformer in a to that. But it's really cool where I like where maybe our can might change over time. But the user class can take that back in ADA the model. And then when it sent forward we can ensure that are J on offic. We thin or x amount whatever that we can display to through the guy date consistent. We change the have. We don't have to change the the the front head so to speak. That would you change if they need? No, I I used facto for a long time. A big believer in having a layer obstruction in front of your database and with the helps provide a lot of that standardization. You know, if you're creating if you're creating you know, if you look at an APR contract, which is constantly look at it like that you wanna support that contract for as long as possible. So by providing that layer of obstruction, it allows you to change your underlying infrastructure architecture as much as you want while consistently being able to provide the same output, and you know, adhere to your contract. So used facto for a long time I use the league one for a while and then used spots package for a while because it makes it really easy to use. But I always really wanted like a solid framework solution in the poll request that came in, you know, off off that polar quest Muhammed Taylor. And I kind of. Went back and forth a bit on it. And I'm really happy with the way it turned out. I know Taylor Mohammed put a ton of work into it. And it it works. Great. I'm using it right now, we're in we rolling out a at work anew API soon in, you know, right after that poll request came out, I ripped out fractional and put this in place, then actually using it amusing a slightly different version of it for both the request and the response, Tom Schlick, and I have been working on a package that kind of bridges the gap between eight API evolution in being able to transform your request and response through version. So even get like an initial layer of obstruction there that can help you transform that contract overtime. Really interesting. I saw that on contemporary out. Yeah. It's under Tom slicks Namespace, it's called request migrations. I basically was designed after stripes might request migrations. So that's there's a couple of issues on it. I'm going to be working out at a lot next week. And and hopefully tighten it up because our got to go to production soon in in that package is part of it. So definitely worth checking out. Remember shaking pig and look at it and might be one star people started. But it's something I wanted. I wanted to come back to because another thing that we talked about it the company I work at is. We're re entering ingredient point. But we don't have Virginia in place that we've been trying to do a hybrid of version ING showing a B one into the into the route. Which is k-. And we should be nine hundred hurry up again that done using. Yeah. It's pretty stable. There's one bug in it right now. But other than that, it's it's been really stable. Phil surging is someone who I've really followed closely as far as talking about API design his book building API's, you won't hate is fantastic. I feel like it's kind of like the bible for Bill building API's. He's I know he's working on another book. Now, that's gonna talk a bit about API tooling and API version in kind of relying on the API evolution so one of the things as far as version and goes in this new API that I'm building is. I dropped the version in the euro, there's a whole bunch of articles. I was reading in. It's something that always kind of bothered me. So I dropped the version one from the euro, and I'm exclusively relying on those requests migrations. So that allow you to kinda. Transform keys as your API evolves. But I really wanted to solidify contract as far as the end points go. So if there's something new I need to do or some big change, you need to make it's really going to take a step back in and look at the U R L structure and see what makes sense. And if I need a break out something new I need a break out something new, but it's it's another piece of solidifying that contract. So. There's a lot of resources out there. But I would definitely keep an eye on what you know, Phil sturgeons coming out with next in take a look through the. API's you won't hate like they've got a medium feed. Some really good articles there and she didn't beat him. The check that out lane. Can we can try try not read it up for everyone? Sentiments of filth urging clean label. All full of development, new one. I know he comes up the way on the P will avert one with written p of four ish kind of environments. If the net claiming to be or what are the? Oh, sure. No fills. I think currently right now he's working at we work and has been really focusing a lot on rails lately. But one of the things I think he's been talking about is kind of not including as many code examples and really talking more about API's specifically because it's it's pretty ubiquitous, you know, you can apply the same theories and methodologies to its framework agnostic in code example, agnostic so really kinda focusing on. Tool sets API version and things to help it here to that contract. And and documentation now, let's big focus of that. He's been working with lately is really focusing on how to document API's. Or go back through some late. If he has I'm guilty of eggs act. Same thing. I have urging in euros me. Like, I typically have the default. You're L will will point to the latest version. But then I also have a each version has its own your L as well said he'd go back can talking back to two through the frac piece in defining that contract and in making sure you'd hear to that contract. Do you also consider it because the reason I started doing it that that's naming giving my implants that the data that's returning like different names than what's in the database. I always thought thought of it as a security approach to so that I'm not necessarily exposing my database column names. To whoever's consuming my API's. The do you think that's not really good way to look at it? Or do you kind of agree with it from a security standpoint? I mean, I I don't see a lot of weight there in the security standpoint. I I mean, I'd say probably nine times out of ten it's a, you know, at least initially the column names, and the response names are identical. I mostly look at it as a protection of evolution over time. Yeah. I think that's that's how I saw different. As is. I would attend. Main name it differently for and I don't know why just in my head. It just seemed like a security measure. But maybe I was faking myself outta might help me sleep at might. But really wasn't giving me additional security that that I thought it was and. Goshen, come up before in terms of let's say you use the trance the transformer class to regain your quick from what the actual field. I don't agree with it. And and very I'm back and forth. And I wanna put the link. Do you really really need to change? It are you creating more confusion for yourself at the developer. When you're when let's say, you have I ne- in in the Larry Bell's user table, for example, first name is for underscore name. They are your output is. Sneak case. Three you're trying to foment you convert with Nate case where the. You're not really gaining security measures there. But if you changed it to something completely up, wait, I don't know name perfect. Are you really a security layer there? That's kind of kinda of was my question. I it my mind. My I always felt like there was some security there. I mean, I name is kind of a bigamous example. But you know, there there are columns that might have a little bit more of a sensitive data type associated to it. Where maybe it's you ide- babies, a you ide- colony in your database, but you don't necessarily want to expose that as you know, as what the colony is if my head, you know, I might I might expose that as you know, the user ID if there was if there was a reason for me to pass that to the unused in again in my head. Well, first thing as the as an somebody consuming that implement that makes more sense to me the fact that it's user ID, even though good developer. What would understand? But in my head, it's still add like that obstruction like some like security through obscurity, where if they ever did try to attack my database, and they thought that that column name was user underscore ide-. Because that's what they see in the API that would somehow slow them down because that column doesn't actually exist yet again. Yeah, good. Yeah. Yeah. The you I d I definitely always like proxies to the ID because when you look at the would you look at my your L structures. That's us the U ID as the reference in the URL to some sort of resource or entity ID. So that that one changes for me, it's actually taking everything step back like kind of stepping away from the code base stepping away from the database when I built API's even ones that are just like I got a couple of points now. And then as I get more requirements just kinda grows over time. I always document. I when I any time I touch API's. It's always documentation, I because I wanna provide the best contract possible for anyone who's gonna be consuming that so all of my key names, all of my all, my key names, all of my like combination like how I combine the data all of my you Arale structures all of that stunned I and then I move onto implementation. And one of the nice things about that too. Is it allows you to build integration tests against that contract? So once you design it, you know, all those decisions are made. So this is what my user resources gonna look like, here's our here's it's relationships. Here's you know, some other user like some other resources that user owns and going to design all that. I now I can make an integration test against it. And then using cool services like apiary. Once you have that documentation. I the person who's. Doing the implementation on the front end can be doing their implementation while you're also doing the implementation that serves that contract. And then in the end, you stop it out. They point to your like, your API code base rather than apiaries mock API, and it should all link up as long as everybody was at hearing to that contract the same. But for me, it's never been about security because doing the design first so all of those naming conventions in the in the transformers are solely based around. What I think is going to be the optimum experience for someone who's consuming that contract. You touched on a little bit. And I think it's a good leeway. Segue into kind of another discussion point documentation for P is such a key aspect of that workflow, especially if you're exposing public PI's that you want developers to be able to consume you touched on Apia apiary which probably one of the better ones out there. Like, you said it allows you to do documentation based on the documentation, you can spin up mock a servers for people to to use as you develop out the actual implants, that's such a cool tool. We're talking about a little bit for the show started that that's not owned by oracle not exactly cheap others of free tier? But it it's a little little bit expensive. What other tools do you guys use for not only documentation? But. Tools you use for API development in general anything stand out. I think one. Never don't have experience in it. But I have looked at new way. The way that was what I was going to mention. So here's my grief swagger, and you can let me know if you have a similar experience. I always feel like my code is so messy after I added, my swagger documentation. So I'll come into that. Are you are you talking about using swagger through like like doc block generation like auto? That's historically how I used it. I mean, how else would you use it? Yeah. I'm not typically a fan of doing that. At all the way that I the way that I do it is there's two ways you can define swagger or swagger and open API are believe the same thing. And we're very similar. So there's as you can define it. You can define it through YoM. Oh, or you can also dish define it straight through. Jason. I've always just done the Amel configuration. So. So there's there's a two two competing food not competing, but there's two separate formats out there. There's API blueprint which there's a that's an open source spec. Swagger is the I think not by grab apiary is probably one of the best like editors an renderers for API blueprint. But there's a whole bunch of open source tooling built around it. I think there's even a somewhat recent Lavelle package that does will actually parson render static a static documentation site based on API, blueprint documentation. And then there's swagger, and then there's a whole got an open an open source back, and there's a whole bunch of tooling built around that too. There's the official swagger tools, but then there's all sorts of additional renderers in tooling based on that there is like SDK generators for multiple languages. It's pretty cool. But yeah, both of them. You can add it through variety of editors swaggers got a inefficient. Like editor that you use. You know, it's to pain you have like a preview on the right hand side in the left is just like a Yambol editor. That's typically how I prefer to do it right now. I'm really on the API blueprint kick. But I've used swagger for the past couple of years, and it's great of the oath mount of generate your documents to note to do that I about. Yeah. I did know that it can do it. What I've done is used those specs in the documentation to generate like postman, or lately, I've been using Pau PA w it's like this man on steroids. It's fantastic. But yeah, I've I've actually used the documentation to generate collections for pawn postman. I haven't done it the other way around, but it's pretty cool that you can do that go back to. Late Eric I'm only begun at B of the duck block. So this is a separate Yama file in and it had its format of how you would break the description rate of half, the payload all. Laptop and completely. Yeah. It's completely separate if you go to like swagger site, they have I think it's even like editor, swagger dot IO. And yeah, it's just there's a precept spec for how you build out the neck how you structure the file, and you know, that that goes through different parcels different renderers. And since it's a spec, you can build a lot of tooling around it one of the things that are kind of like a little more about API blueprint is that it it is just Mark down. So if you took the swagger Hamill out of swagger and try to read it you can get through it. But it still you're reading Yambol if you don't render API blueprint, and you just like read it as a markdown file is still pretty legible and serves as relatively decent documentation on its own. Jitka loading up here. Mike garner. A message from the public to channel. And he thought link dot IO in he uses of waiting for it to load who has figure what I know. But. But. That's new one on me. I was I was just trying to bring it up myself. Loading clue I don't know whether a three or hammering it, and it's going to get. We'll come back to that one loans by them to now. Now learned about the damn thing. Thank you for that. We need your planning. Do you? Write all this YoM. Oh, al-yarmuk road up front as part of your any protest to help like edition. You're going to deliver. Yeah. I got to a point with it that it became really fluid to write it, and it was not it was just like, you know, typing stuff out. I think in the beginning. It was a little challenging to wrap your head around it. But yeah, that's how I typically do it like sometimes I'll even just like get a piece of paper and just kinda sketch it out. But yeah, I typically will dive right into either the swagger Gammel or API blueprint like markdown and just start designing the API a lot of times like design it or kind of sleep on it. See how I feel about it in the morning kinda do some mental gymnastics thinking about right like if I was going to be consuming this to build an application. How does it feel? How does it you know, how how would cashing look against this? You know, does this make sense in is something that, you know, over time. Do I see this evolving? Well and changing well does this a contract that I'd like to try to adhere to so? Yeah, I I've right into the way that I'll documented and in design it there in the documentation, the added bonus is your documentations done at that point. You don't have to circle back and go, oh, I'll do documentation later, which you know, never happens. It's nice that you can like design it and play with especi-, especially with AP or you can design and play with it. Right. There you can pull up, you know, a terminal and curl it and see how it looks. How it feels? I think there's a really strong argument to do your design work in the documentation framework. Now, I'm wondering about. Considered considered part of this planning moat device when we use larval as an EMMY ever framework are modeled or one one to the tables Di Di ever get into a more of a domain level concept in European or you may be calling both a model for table. Or do you strictly keep that one to one relation across the board? Dan depends on the endpoint. There's there are some points that are, you know, a resource and like an eagerly loaded relationship that that makes one a single representation of a resource depends on how how well it fits the database model. So that that plays into some to like some of this stuff is is a single representation of a resource, but it may take two tables to do it because that was the best way to model the data in the database. So it's Yala gal eagerly load, the call before passage of the transformer. But I don't have a like a set rhyme way that I do it all just depends on like what's going to work best for the contract. And then what's works best in the code base in the like in the database. Yeah. I think the only thing I tried to do as far as like thinking through that is I do try to give as much of the data like try. I try to intimidate what somebody consuming the implant would want. So I try to get as much of the data to them. Before that without have to make multiple calls. So. Two TV's point I'll eager lewd some back in data that I that is associated to the point that call him just just to kind of make it a little easier for for the person who's making the call to not have to make another call. I don't want them to make a call for users ide- and then make a call to find out. What is that user likes? It's like, okay. If they're calling for a user, I'll just go ahead and give them at uses favorite colors that users favorite foods into allow that whole user info in point just just to consume as much of that as I can just a mate make the requirement for for multiple 'cause easier. The killing what happened if you have mall? It might be over kill. But like from a coding perspective for me as a developer. I rather have more information than less because it's easy for me. To discard the information. I don't want. It's kind of a pain for me to have to. And again, I'm just thinking on how I like to develop. It's a pain for me to have to continue to make calls to dig down to get the information. I want just you'll give me all the information. I'll discard way don't need in just leverage the the information needed. Let's just how that's how I on the I don't know if you guys have a different opinion on that. But that's about it. For me. It depends. I mean, there are various patterns that you can use to allow the whoever's consuming your API to make choices about what you want to include or exclude. There's a if you look at fractional they have pattern where you can pass in a query argument that's called include. And then you can commerce separate additional related resources to the new in your code base is part of the transformers you map. How it includes those relationships part of the problem with that is if you're not careful you'll run into a significant amount of end plus one click queries. I know a few people that that's bit myself included. And then you can start going down the whole graph graph Kjell path is well, but I definitely take time to try to figure. That out ahead of time. Just make smart decisions. I typically don't don't reference dynamically included additional data. But I definitely try to you know, I don't know. I try to make smart decisions up front when designing the API like what might make sense, including a user resource some stuff, I might push off to another one. And that's a cool thing about letting your API evolve. And adding in metrics to your API is you can kind of see what people are requesting. And if they're saying, hey, I'd I'd rather have the user's favorite colors as part of the user church not really ton effort, adding that in additions don't break contracts for the most part, at least that's the way that I structure a lot of my API's, adding additional keys to a response is not breaking a contract removing them. Yeah. That's a problem. But adding them, especially all my documentation says, hey, we might add additional fields to this. You know this. Resource as the API evolves and grows. So I don't know there's a whole bunch of different ways of handling that. But I try to make smart decisions up front in. You know, see what happens? Recall that include thing that you mentioned what I think about now if I say filtering, you talk about a user and on returning single information. What if we folks an wing that listed all the user or lift of user than the systems, but we only wanted to filter where earth name might. Food. Or in either not much dynamic cram? You could go in there and type, you know, earth name money and really trying dial down what resulted you don't allow that kind of flexibility rate. Billy tight contained. They when you call the guy you're going to get all of us all the time. Really depends on the data. And what I typically consumers wanting to do with that data a lot of times. I'll exclude it for the majority of the API, except for many one index that I know is going to, you know, one resource, you know, in the collection that I know is going to need to be queried on like, I know it's just going to be a common thing as part of that collection. I've done patterns where I've done a like a query argument of filter you can pass in like some sort of leg query string. I've tried a couple of I think they're I think there are specs available to to kinda pull from us for building the lake your queries and filters for that kind of stuff. A lot of times I might push that into a search and point. So you could have a like a user's collection, and then like a search and point on top of that where you can pass in your queries through that searching. And so it really comes kind of becomes a search rather than a filter. Among the thing that we. Committed time in like, ten minutes left in our show pretty much. In the beginning. It just little and I figured so much more. We have trip to China about. I'm sure we can spill over just a little bit. No. Have to follow them. Anyway over into you. Well, any of you guys having -perience with graph fiend bit of it his silver bullet or United? No, no, I I don't think it's. Oh, okay. I would say I'm really hoping PJ. Background on this. I kind of been on the outskirts watching it and everything I hear about it sound so peeling sound so promising, but I haven't really jumped into it to kind of understand how differs from traditional API. So if you have if you have your head more rounded TJ love to pick your bringing about this one. Yeah. For sure I think I think it's really interesting tool like I don't have a lot of. Got some experience consuming it. I haven't really written too much outside of just kinda playing around with it. But what really kind of something that like really grinds my gears is that whole silver bullet thought process to graph Q L. It's not going to save anything or it's not going to be the new rest. It's it's just a different. It's a different tool in the box. I think a lot of people are it has all these new features. But rest can do a lot of that too. Yes. Can I kind of explain to you my kind of understanding of it? And then you can let me know where wrong. I'm sure wrong. Still the the way is made from hang on Twitter jonbenet in to the part where they arrived from. He said I. So the way this this differs from traditional API, including says. Way where traditional traditionally points. You have multiple in points with graph Q L implementation, you only have one important. The it just becomes this query implant were. The important is aware of all the data. That's that's available to the person consuming it in the only the only thing that has to happen. Now is the person trying to consume it needs to query that in Queen correctly. So it's almost like a database call. We you hit this graph kilo important. You say, okay, I'm looking for projects their tags, and you know, the developers associated with it. And then you just magically get information back without having dedicated in points for projects tags and developers. Is that close yet? I feel like that's a shit. No, you're not wrong. A lot of that. I feel is pretty on par for graph Q. Like, it's. I think it's a really cool in potentially really powerful tool. But like I said, we're really kind of gets me about what the way that. A lot of people talk about it is is it's a it's a it's a rest killer. It's it's not it's just a different tool. One of the things I've been looking at is in AP, I've got coming up that I'm going to have to build probably six to eight months from now were re platforming at work in one of the things that I was looking at doing his potentially offering graph Q L and point, but really behind the scenes that's just proxy in rest calls because you can have the rest API, and you can have graph Q L in you can have graft. You all actually when you do a query from graph ya'll. It could be you know, depending on what you query in. What you request could be making four different rest calls behind the scene and bring it all together and giving you like here's the results of all these different composite rest queries. As one composite resource. So how do you how do you code a graph Q L implant? I mean, are you just taking in just essentially a query breaking it down and say, okay, if they're looking for key word users. This is the model you go to that's the thing. I'm struggling getting my head like I kind of understand the consuming of graph Kyaw because that's how you consume a lot of things from Facebook. But I don't I can't get my head around. How you write that implant from a developer perspective. I can't really speak to PHP. I know there's two maybe three now graph Khyal plug ins for level. I've only played around with it in a like, no Jess environment. And yeah, you kind of like define what that model looks like. And how you build up that model, and you add some attributes for what some of the relationships look like and how those relationships get queried four. So. Yeah, you you you basically just build out without model looks like and then your query relates back to that model. So the code base knows how to build that model, and it's you know, in what relationships it has available to it. And then those relationships have a model to them, and, you know, your code base says are for all these attributes here's how you build them whether it's caused a database whether it's calls to another API, you know, it's you model it all out based around. Like a like a resource, you're like a user or a user's cars or their favorite colors. Everything's kind of based around that resource and your code just says this is how you build this resource. It's amazing. I'm wondering about like the. Can live on top of mighty database, for example. Yeah, it can be a my sequel database post grass sequel light static Jason files Gammel, or they could be a composition of making calls to multiple internal micro service. API's, you know, so it can be your user comes from an account service at maybe they have a put it in the framework of like where I worked I worked with transactions in credit card credit card payments processing, so you have like a an account and that account could have back that account data will come from an account service. And then that account has transactions that were processed against it will there's a whole separate service for querying transactions. So if you wanted to get a user and the user's transactions than I'm gonna do to to build that composite model making to rest calls behind the scene to two different micro services to. Get that data. And then it returns with the user in the transactions coming from two places. So you could even split that up to you. I'm going to make the users just going to be a straight call to a database all their transactions. I'm gonna make some soap XML query directly to our gateway and get all their transactions. And now, you have the model that you dislike you, you queried for the graph of. Here's all that data looker dating limit of the obvious here in firming found like it's not again, not over something that. Won't solve about eight. Don't have. Issued with your debate large Ribero index than that intimate ivine. It's still going to be slow. Yeah. I mean, bad architectures bad architecture, like the only the only way to fix that is reflector. It's just an interesting way. It's interesting in in different tool for querying, data, and whatever's behind that is is up to you. I think this point we're going to have to probably call the show getting to the top of the hour little their rules dig with. That being said I want to say thank you to Jane for coming on and being one of our new regular panelist. Of course, thank you Eric for his viewings. Why show up? There. Yeah. What do we that is an actual API? I mean, we've got a we've got like how will we get some listeners to convert them on earth. Choubey? We went to we can do API as we can get specific about like, what type of API is publicly consumable APR's, micro service, API different gotta mix it up and up. We'll come back. Show every month. So that's not that hard. How can make a new podcast? Call EPA live. We'll do that on every other day. Those issues we had with the PHP ugly. We still fight it. We turned into this crypto currency podcast for about three weeks where that was like all we talked about I have slowly wean them off crypto currency. Hey when. When something's hot something's hot, man. I tell you, man. Let's let's figure out some topic for the next show. Of course, listeners people who are paying attention. Shuttles idea on on slacker Twitter reluctant when you wanna talk. Those maybe come on the show at each thing that that'd be at tactic. I don't know about you guys. No. I totally agree. I mean, that's what this is about. This is giving the community a platform to come out and have those conversations and reach out to new audiences. And you know, have some good discussions. I don't know why I'm here. But you know, Shaun keeps let me show up and he hasn't blocked me on Twitter yet. So he peering. But yeah, this is this is it. I mean, this is your community platform right here. If you wanna be on the show hit us up on Twitter, hit us up in Lear chat slack. We'll make those arrangements. And yeah, let's let's get that out there. Let's call it here and say thank you for everybody for watching into the podcast later on or be watching that YouTube with that vote then think TJ Eric for coming on. And we will be back in two weeks with companies that we probably could about an hour. And the next show will be without Eric. Unfortunately, we firing him. Nobody thinks enemy.

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Episode 32: Jen, Ben and the celebrity exes we still think about

We Hear

26:30 min | 10 months ago

Episode 32: Jen, Ben and the celebrity exes we still think about

"Today on we hear Amanda Hirsch from the not skinny but not fat podcast is joining us. We'll dive into everything. From celebrity couples. We love to hate on the Kardashian dynasty and the thirsty world of celebrities on instagram coming up next on we hear. Oh my guy. Page six divorce. Slashed cars paves six fielding. Pay Their I.. Maggie Caguan and welcome to we here on page six podcast here. All the celebrity dirt from our exclusive sources. And you hear the story behind the story we have a very special guest host today. Kamanda Hirsch she's the host of not skinny but not fat. A podcast. All about dating lives drunken escapades and makeup lines of celebrities. That comes out every Tuesday day. Welcome Amanda Thank you. Thanks to a makeup lines. Come out every two years I'd cast is both I feel like thank you Sandra having sorry yeah. I'm really excited to chat with you. Yeah like you have a lot of hot hot takes that our listeners will really appreciate ally home sell okay so let's get into. Yeah you obviously watch the screen actors guild awards say Brad and JEN getting back together on the red carpet. means that we're thinking about love loss as you know all these old Hollywood couples. Yeah does anyone come to mind. Who would make you ask excited as that? Many reunion did I'm GonNa it just combine worlds for a second not a less but corner Kadarshian and Scott disick. We gotta do a stars for them. I think that it's in the stars for them. I think that it's in the stars for them. Because have you ever seen them together. Like post breakup on the show. There's so much chemistry there that I feel like they need to sit five five miles away from each other and I just feel like whole get through his thing with Sophia. She hasn't really moved on me. I feel like it's going to happen. Everyone wants it. And it's kind of the same as Brad and Jen unlike he messed up so did brad hello. Did everyone forget to everyone. I had to remind in the world of instagram. I was like I'm with with Ya. I want to see it happen but I also think our Gen deserves better. He left her for. Angie I think our Gen deserves the best and I feel like. Don't you think people forget get just because he's too good looking. People who are on the red carpet together doesn't mean we are race. All of their romantic history crazy. I mean good for her for even forgiving him I would like spit on him at the SAG and she like he cheated on her the whole world knew he left her for a co star. That's like anyway. I'm sorry to burst the Bible. But you guys okay so we have Cornell Scott Yeah who else who else would what do you think I mean I always think about Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams because that was such a classic action could last relationship. They were so young they were so cute. Oh it felt like they were the perfect blend of in love and and could have just been a showman's meeting on a movie set you know. Oh my God you know what comes to mind when he say them like that. Couple the VM. As were the injury and activists kiss this died hair her little pinch. She was wearing jeans and a core set top and she rant him. He picked her up like a baby like on his hip. And like that's all you want in. Life is like beyond Ryan Goslings Hippie. You know that's a really good one who else I mean. There's so many any I think about. I WANNA say but I'M GONNA say Jaylo in bed affleck which was such a weird guy I think about all the time. What would have happened if those I had worked out I mean it was a whirlwind romance? Yeah it was like a very bejeweled like a very showy Roman. Everyone was very tends. There was a lot of like angular jaw aligns very intense but I liked the orange juice like jaws jaws and Jules what what that relationship kissing each other must have been a nightmare like. You're so in shape I'm down. I'm not getting sexual vibes from that. Couple no no. It was just like we're both so attractive looking. Yeah and successful. They were both at their prime. Okay people you forgot data. This is like a category. I loved like bring up You know who I forgotten that I saw this awhile ago while I was like stocking. Her is drew. Barrymore and Tom Green. Yes they were engaged. They worked so frigging cool That makes me think think about rose McGowan and Marilyn Manson remember that. When she wore that entirely see-through dress they were anyone with Marilyn Manson? Let's be honest. There's just like a weird like up. Evan Rachel Wood and Merrill Levenson fricken weird okay annoying celebrity couple who you would be happy the legs number one Cody Riley Cody. Simpson us. I WanNa like be happy for her I do not. I don't think he's the man for her. He creeps me out. He's very blonde. He seems thirsty. He's head is small. I don't know it doesn't weird you out when like when like his head is so small and his shoulders are so wide like I would like tone down the like weights. You know. Start that much time. I'm looking at the ratio between Schindler's his head but now I'm going to start and like something weird about them that I've really noticed is like most of their cell fees and like instagram action is like in the bathroom and then you'll see them outside like a cafe and you're like what is going on an apparel. Are they at the beach like did they leave the house house. So it's Yeah I'd be glad for it a move on maybe get another like lesbian relationships. That like maybe Kristen Stewart and Miley Cyrus the Christmas here. I think is a long term partner. Right she has different long-term burner every day. Maxwell we still in the category got back together. That would it seems as long lasting but she had to since her yes back in that category of getting back together the weekend and Bella Hadid. I thought they were very interesting together because it seemed to inspire so much new music and also a lot of cool looks from her fashion wise. I love her fashion. Yeah I do so good. She's so good at his birthday. When they were like the matching cammo suits roots? I was like this is why you get a boyfriend right. But it's Kinda reminds me of the Even Mendez and Ryan where you don't know their vibe so much like what is it. We need to know more. But Anyway Cody Riley is number one for you. Oh God I don't know I just feel like there's so many like working again this. I'm just like just break up break If it was like tristen and chloe were still together I'd say trust and we don't know what's happening there Tristan Thompson Khloe Kardashian Do you think he's in pursuit of her. Yes she might like cave sometimes also but I feel like a student. She had no time for him. You know supply and demand thing. Yeah he was all about all about her and it's so weird when he like got her diamonds and the whole family was like accept them and she was like she was the right. I feel like I know that they're like where it and I'm like. She can buy your own diamonds but that's the question. What does this mean to you? If you can buy all this stuff yourself itself. He's already cheated on. You embarrassed you multiple times. It means nothing like if someone did something. Horrible to me Balmy diamond. I'd like forgive them immediately. I'm broke Oh thank you so much. Let's get back together okay to Mary you like. She doesn't need him for anything she doesn't need him for anything. God Yeah No I. I hate them with a person who always Another person to who I'm on the I'm on the category that I made up people. I hate. That's fine Tyler Cameron Yeh it is it consensus. Nah I think it's consensus because he seems to be the king of shameless promotions geeze everywhere. Everywhere would go to the opening of an envelope. Can we talk about his new venture that he announced. Is it like running in the park cooking for children showing it rally stars homes like which one don't know Maggie. I feel like I'm gonNA speak a different language now because even reading it was like okay. A new like DA building dog homes show. Oh that's called like Barak Stir on Qube. Yeah that's how you say the network he thinks that a network it's like a streaming streaming dreaming thing. Yeah hurt just what yeah go do smirnoff ads go like show your eight-pack yeah and the only anything that really disturbs me about tyler is. Everything is Mad James but Mostly that like we can talk about his thirsty S. and like shameless promotions. Whatever but you know what he managed to do he managed to day Jiji had did in the mix of all this and managed to go to almost funeral? I know and I'm I'm not accepting that haven't I'm not accepting that. He reached that you know achievement in life. Yeah Yeah it's shocking shocking doc. In the bachelor just hung out with Serena Williams at Bodega New York out. Okay with that and you know who should finally get a divorce is Juliana Julianne hough then. Her husband has been who has been made making weird statements. The most exciting thing about their relationship has been that it's up in the air because nobody even paid attention to them before like who what's my sexuality. What is actuality energy healing? I don't know Oh my God that was I was yes my job. What what does that say until he started making really cryptic statements about his sexuality? What you're like wait? Does that mean he wants to bring in toys bringing people to the bedroom. Does that mean he wants to you. Know the the opposite sex. Like what are you saying and why are like why are you saying this nobody asked you. That's why are your voluntary in this information to the outside world and now we're like who is this guy and look what's happening to Julianne. Truly hand like she's she's she's okay so we've done our research Tyler Cameron's new show is called architecture. The architecture for dogs damaged more sense and Bart Starr. I'll be honest architecture. Do you need a break a break from your inbox and list to do list. It's time to prioritize a little me time to help recharge and dipsy can help you. Focus on and something more pleasurable than whatever's left on your to do list dipsy is an audio apple of short sexy stories and guided sessions that are designed to turn you on and help you got in touch with herself. The stories are relatable immersive. So you feel like you're right there and there's something for everyone. One of my favorites is a breath. Work exercise with an expert expert. Who Guides you through breath work so that you feel more relaxed and more in touch with yourself you can use essential oil? It was just a great way to unwind. Hi and take some time for me and for listeners of the show dipsy is offering a thirty day free trial when you go to dipsy stories dot com slash Weei here. That's the Thirty Day free trial when you go to D. P. S. E. A. Stories Dot com slash here the Kardashians polarizing figures. Where do you stand you love or hate them? I would say that if I had to generalize. I love them. I really do love them. I think you know individually. Kim is an amazing businesswoman. She's also doing good right now. She's is blowing it out of the water but I've begun to notice that begun Just like how annoying they can be and and I get why people get so annoyed because people have really like strong hatred towards them in can say like why are they famous and they're famous because of the sex tape I've been you know all this negative all this negativity and for me. It's just like I'm okay with their success. Happy for their success thing They deserve whatever they have. Some of them Kylie is really annoy. Me Right now. Oh so is that your least favorite cartel might not. She's I'm it's like my Tyler Cameron. A warrior billionaire lip kits Lipkin Short answer kits short answer. I can't deal with the fake body. I can't I can't okay so my thing there is this. I feel like doc they have been crashes as a whole have been very transparent about these things they do to keep their looks and she has been not not not. She hasn't said a word to remember the lip thing started I over line them. That's how and then from the overlying she started. Basically the which is genius Griz which we all know Chris which is genius? But then like give us a little bit more credit a little bit. Even though Kim didn't really admit ten th like those boats aren't real allegedly I mean here's a legend. Those votes aren't real. I don't know what the visual literacy of Americans Arkins is in response to their awareness of plastic surgery and stuff like that. Because you can say I've had no work done and just be like well. I didn't get plastic surgery. I had my fat got transferred from my waist. My Butts so it's still me you know what I mean on a technicality. They could get by true but I think it's ridiculous that the impact of her figure. I taken hold everywhere from like instagram to modeling. Like we're seeing this audio and this face everywhere. Best friends all have her body her face and in her body Stasi baby all very similar. But also if Schroeder I'd be like you know can we call you another name Saucy Baby Arabia namely taken over for the past few years. I call her saucy baby. Yeah like instagram handle or nothing. I'm not calling you buy your full name. Yes are you a sausage Schroeder fem. Oh this is going to be a won't rising opinion as well. Just do a tease on the vanderbilt. Okay you don't have to go all the way all right I about Stacey. That's a good question. I'm jealous of Saucy but I think Stasi's another one who's great marketing who was spun herself into a career that we didn't see coming. Lessen the amount of time she said ranch so far this season just shows she's on that marketing game like Galore like woman one more ranch one more ran if I had a beer cheese imaz beer cheese or every time she said Rach Gia accurate Jackson Brittany would like have a side hustle. That was actually. Yeah Okay Backyard Ashes Yeah Cord Ashi in Dudes who is your favorite. Why do they suck so much? No I was just thinking about it And I was like you know usually people they I say allegedly when you have like daddy issues it should come from like having daddy issues you know. They had an amazing Daddy. It it looks like and I know he passed away. You know early on. And then they had kinda bruce but it just seems like their choices are so often like. Where's that coming from because we we don't know but what it looked like was that Rob Robert Kardashian was an amazing father were also connected him and they make such bad choices con? Yeh Hey surprisingly is the best of them all. He's not know which I also couldn't believe it because like this is Connie everyone thought was such a wild wildcard. I'm like look at like a doting dad like I love that. So Connie's winning at Does anyone else have a significant other right now. no no. It's weird to think about the fact that Kylie enclosure single MOMS yeah and that Kris Jenner is still dating core. Yambol what is going on there. And why does Kylie hang out with him and have like matching bedazzled like shot glasses or something. I feel like corey is lake the defacto bodyguard. Like he's just like I'll go with you. I'll take your your mom busy. I wouldn't mind that yeah. I wouldn't mind having a bodyguard just like come with me. Make sure sure I get there. Yeah let's have lunch. So what are you looking forward to with the Kardashians. Well I heard Kendall on Ellen again which I put this up on my story like go on Ellen. Everyday I don't know I feel. She's on Ellen. Every single day L. Kardashian safe-space legs go when they can say whatever they want. I I feel like there's a contract we need to do some research there but Kendall went on on again and she said We're going to see a lot in the next season which made me happy. 'cause last season seemed like they were wrapping things out and I was like what the we're GonNa see more of Corny wanting to pull back because of boundaries and that probably continue to like explode on each other yes bring on Eunice date. Yeah I WANNA see dudes yeah I wanNA see Kendall and Kendall's romantic life because it's the last time Kendall was like I have a big announcement to make sure it's like I'm using PROACTIV solution and that was like are you kidding me. This is about your skin again. That was so annoying. That was so annoying. He has. She's very private but I feel like she gets It's okay because she was private from the beginning but we definitely like we love the family drama. We live on their family drama. But we need some like external stimulation. Total little here a little there. I would love to see some of that. Love to St more Kenyan confessionals being awkward. Yeah Yeah sitting next to Kim and being like she says something and she's like Right Bay and he's yeah I'm like I don't know what you want me to do so supportive though. Yeah I guess yeah I mean they are supportive of each other. But I'm like you know this guy I didn't want to be on the show. Yeah like he's been very vocal about not wanting to be a big part of it so when he's there he's really like I'm doing this for you right. You have no choice. Yeah I'm I'm looking forward. That's what marriage is I. Guess Yeah and putting your shoes on a couch. I love that about the crash and when I do that I might like scissors house. I'm like the garage and kill them. We all want to feel. Oh better about what we eat but sometimes it's really hard to prepare healthy meals at also tastes. Good let's see Kara. You can reach your health goals without sacrificing taste now. So car is a nutrition company that focuses on overall wellness and that begins with what you eat. Their organic ready meals are made with powerful plant based ingredients and they're designed to boost your energy improve your digestion and get your skin allowing along with delicious meal. Car also has daily wellness essentials like supplements Minson herbal teas to support your nutrition to boost results. Tried the best selling metabolism super powder in all natural remedy for bloating weight gain and fatigue and and right now the cars offering our listeners. Twenty percent off their first order when they go to car dot com slash. We hear or enter code. We hear checkout. That's a Kara S. A. K. A. R. A. dot com slash. Weei here to get twenty percents off your first order Sakari dot com slash. Weei here so a mantra. Tell me how you came up with the name not skinny not fat. It's a relatable sentiment. Yeah Yeah Yeah and this is before everyone was saying like relatable I feel like for me was like literal at the at the time. It's still is at the time now. Oh you know model but also fat was what I always felt like in my life like as as simple as that. When I was young everyone was like stick skinny? I always had like Kerr's Zach sales like sexy m twelve. Get away from me so for me was just like that name came to to me is just like a like a stamp of relate ability but also about anything. You're not here nor there like you're in somewhere in the middle that's okay and basically like it's when I found out instagram could be like words and non pictures right so would like right things then post them and So it was kind of started as like a meam account and A lot about like just weighed and you know just because I I love writing about that stuff you you could literally right like eight so much last night and so many people will be there with you. You know what I mean like all my benched this so it started from like that kind of a a place and now it just turned into because I've always been obsessed with celebrities and I used to. You know what I I used to be a little bit ashamed of it. uh-huh interesting I feel like you know my older sister used to make fun of me like you said the best of all you care about Today I'm so comfortable with it. You know own. Why do you think that does I think because like it's such escapism? For everyone like of course. I rather look at like what Haley Bieber posted about Justin. Dan then like have a panic attack rain. You know what I mean like. Of course like if I could focus on dumb stuff all day I love that so it doesn't mean that's all you care about obviously but It's a it's a great escapism tool for me and I think it's interesting. I think their lives are so fascinating fascinating. I think we're finding out more and more today. That being famous isn't so fun and when people still don't get got it my mom I'm like mind boggled just because I'm like to see what they go through. You know it's so difficult you know with like awareness of mental health stuff just just like on a serious note. It's like crazy. What happens to them in their lives? Just because of fame. Yeah so I love it. I love following it. I love seeing what they're up to. So it became kind of like a combination of things like mediums. Like let's laugh and related and sort of. Have this like common self humor. I also like let's make fun of reality TV You know you know what's up with the world escape for a minute and into celebrities. Lives as well so yeah. It's as great unifier that I'll be places and I'll have nothing to say it to anyone I'm like did you see Gwyneth paltrow's comment about loving cigarettes in nineteen ninety-five. Yes I did. Let's talk about it thank you. I thought you were going to say her vagina. Scented Candle. Well yes that's yeah that's old now. I'm talking about her responding to that was like I don't know who could look at a cigarette at eight. Am and think And she was like me in one thousand nine hundred ninety. I love seeing celebrities smoke cigarettes. I don't know I the other thing I love. One saw her at South by South West last year and she swore like a sailor which to me really. I found it to be really endearing because I'm like she plays role of Gwyneth. Paltrow right and then this is the actual. That's not you know two legs wearing day although she swearing a lot in the net flicks o.`Neil. Oh anytime I watched. I watched the first of the second episode but they all go and they do. Mushrooms like Gwen does not go. But but these people are like on an island during mushrooms on a porch. And they're just like sweating and crying and it's so uncomfortable that it's so weird and it would giving Zion just like like watching it so much as an anxious person good luck. Oh my God but no I I heard. Actually I have a friend that worked at Google and apparently and I think also She admitted this before Iguanas. But she's like she's kind of a donor smokes. A lot of weed. Allegedly allegedly okay. So who do you love to follow on Instagram What I love to follow like I feel like I love Chrissy Teigen? That's such an obvious ones such an obvious one but she delivers time. It really does deliver. That's a good one. I did write that. Which is why I just got mad at you She does deliver to the point where breath you're too good. She looks amazing also like she looked so good at the grammys ask got love that orange glowing. Yeah she's so good. I instagram. Because she's actually actually funny like who else could is funny right because we WANNA see funny. That's all we want. I'm really into reality stars on Instagram. I love seeing their bad ads. It's I love how they tried to make like. I was just making a smoothie with my new all glass like no I call you up today. So fear Ritchie wins. My Worst I. Instagram influencers award that I give out. She didn't add today for some company. Whatever I'm not good remember and she was like I am obsessed Ashwini this brings it over? It's closed who never opened it so I don't know how she's obsessed like had things inside like little trees or something. She opens it for the first time. Ever I'm so obsessed tastes it for the first time because it was the first time she was made a face of light. It tastes healthy. Eighty girl if something tastes healthy gross. It's not good you can say like it's tastes amazing and it's also good for you. It was the worst. So I kind of enjoy only following I enjoy following celebrities on instagram sometimes for content. That is not precisely I met everyone. One can have Chrissy Teigen sons of humor but a lot. Can you know without realizing it'd be funny totally. Thank you for hanging out Amanda. Don't don't forget to check out our podcast. Not Skinny not fat which comes out every week on all your favorite podcast platforms to hear. The latest weaker episodes. Be Sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts. spotify for any of your preferred podcast platforms. Don't forget to leave us a review. We'll be back tomorrow with more paychecks. Exclusives see them.

instagram Kim Tyler Cameron Maggie Caguan Juliana Julianne hough Kamanda Hirsch Kendall Brad Kardashians Chrissy Teigen Kardashian Marilyn Manson Sandra Gwyneth paltrow Bart Starr Kadarshian Serena Williams JEN partner
Episode 142  Talking Terraform with Ned Bellavance

The 6 Figure Developer Podcast

45:31 min | 7 months ago

Episode 142 Talking Terraform with Ned Bellavance

"Name Hello Multiple. Six figure developer. Podcast the podcast where we talk about new and exciting Technologies Professional Development Clean Code career advancement and more. I'm John Calloway. I'm Clayton on with us. Today is Ned Bella. Vence net is an independent consultant and the world technology. He focuses on creating content around training education and marketing among other things he creates courses for plural site hosts the day to cloud podcast and writes content for several tech marketing firms welcomed. Ed Thank you. Thank you for having me before we get into the meat of things. Would you give our listeners? A little introduction to yourself maybe tell them how you got started in the industry. Yeah I got started as many Sys Admin does I started on help desk tier one. It was a retail help desk which was really interesting because I was dealing with people who knew absolutely nothing about technology. They could manage a retail store. They could ring things up on a register. But if you ask them to find. I don't know the parallel port. Good luck so I learned to communicate fairly well and check my assumptions at the door like any assumption that they would have any idea what I was talking about. I can't tell you how many times I told them to restart the computer. And they turned the monitor off and then back on so that was that was my background. That's how I started and then just kind of moved up through the ranks naturally into a more of a role and tried my hand consulting for like seven years and after that I got kind of tired of consulting and thought well why don't I just strike out of my own and people seem to like it when I write things and talk about things. So why don't I try to get paid to talk and write and amazingly? I actually get paid to do that so I guess it all worked out for me. Yeah so what? What are you doing these days? Might Primary focus is creating courses for plural site. I have four fourteen courses on there now two of which are about tear forum. Which is something we're going to be talking about and also another Hashtag. Corporate product called volt. I HAVE TWO COURSES. That are just about vault. Actually I guess I have three courses on tariff for him now. Well I'm losing track already. And then a whole bunch of courses focused mostly on Microsoft Azure. But I do have. Aws courses as well so that's one of my primary focuses. I also get paid by a bunch of different marketing firms to write tech copy. That is not untruthful which sometimes it's difficult to find you know you've you've read the marketing brief and you're like no that can't possibly drew. I read that too and I'm like I wanNA write something that is true that is still engaging but it has to at least have a grain of truth to it and so that's what. I aim for in that and I guess aside from that I'm doing the podcasting thing as well with day to cloud where we focused on Day. Two problems when you're trying to operate things within the cloud base and finally. I also writes pieces for an analyst firm called Gig home so I just recently published a key criteria report on edge infrastructure and. That's something that I've been getting into more is what's going on at the edge because there does seem to be a bit of tech boom around that so it seems like a good place to focus. If you want to grow your skill set in your career pickle pickle actually started watching some of your plural side courses on tear form. Recently in my day to day I was told that hey it would be really beneficial due to get up to speed on tax reform. I've got some other colleagues in France in the industry that have been just talking nothing but good things about tear form so I figured it was about time and and ran across a couple of your plural site videos and have been kind of diving in there and and have already started making progress on on my own infrastructure as code repositories. So why don't you kind of maybe give give us a high level of care for what it is? And then we'll kind of take it from there. Yeah sure so. Tear form is all about automating the deployment of infrastructure and. I really want to stress that it's about that initial deployment and the upkeep of immutable type infrastructure so this is not a configuration management tool that you might have encountered in the world the puppet or chef or even God forbid SCCM. I'm so sorry if you had to deal that it's not about that digging into the guts of the Os the application and seeing if it's in a consistent state and looking for configuration drift in those types of things it's focused the layer up on provisioning the networking provisioning the virtual machine that will host your os an application and all the other components. Which makes it a really good fit for public cloud because the cloud has really good. Api's that allow you to relatively simply provision infrastructure and you're creating that infrastructure based off of declarative code so it uses its own it's called Hashing Corp Configuration Language. So it's its own DSL. Which I know some people like Oh did you really have to create your own DSL? And I guess. They decided that they did. The Nice thing is that. Hcl is used across their products. So if you are using vault or console or even know mad you'll find it's also using h c also you can kind of transfer that skill set around a little bit now the basic components. Are you have your declarative configuration? You have the binary of tax reform that looks at that can fig and tries to make it a reality in whatever cloud you want in the way that it does. That is through Executed plug INS that are associated with different providers so an example of a provider would be a provider for aws so that provider knows how to create resources using the AWS API in their cloud. Tariff has no idea how to create anything basically it just knows how to inspect what you put in the configuration and then work with those plug ins to make whatever you want to create a reality. So that's that's like a ten thousand foot view of what tear for him is aiming to do but we can dive into any of the components that you'd like yeah. I think it's really important. One of the things you said it. It's all about the creation but it's not necessarily about the management because one of the one of the problems I ran into while we're trying to build up our our example repository is we. We have some configurations in there. We have some Pulling in some Azur things and wanted to add identity management and then add key vault and then Associates one of the applications with a diminishment with the Ki Ki Vault instance And if you're doing that piecemeal and interactivity then there's actually we'll call it a bug in. There is an issue filed in in get hub currently that if you try to to change some of the identity stuff and Alton in principles in all that it doesn't necessarily work right in one shot you have to do it By by committing the the change and then committing an additional. Change to to pick it up. So it's an issue that's been open for a while and I think it's probably because you're you're really not supposed to do it that way. Use only as intended. Yeah that is one of the challenges so the plug. Ins for reform are maintained partly by the good folks at Hash e court but also maintained sometimes by the vendor and they're all open source so anybody can contribute to them so that particular issue that you're seeing with key vault. That's something that needs to be resolved with the plugin whether Microsoft does that whether someone had has she court finally figured that out. Or you know if you're feeling saucy and want to dive into go a little bit because the whole thing is written and go you could go and issue a PR that fixes whatever that particular issue is so all of that is one hundred percent in within your realm of control by wouldn't expect the average person to go and you know try to update a plugin when they're just starting to learn tariff arm. That's probably asking a bit much. Yeah I guess so before. We kinda keep digging in a little bit deeper who who might really find themselves benefiting from tariff warm. And what problems might they the running into that? It's solving for them. I guess there's a couple different examples of that. The first one I would think of is how I came to Tara for him which was basically as working as a consultant. Doing a lot of cloud net new standups like we would go to a client and they would say hey. I want to deploy some stuff in. Aws or I want to go. Deploy something in Microsoft Azure and I would go and I would mess around with cloud formations tablets or I would dig into the world of templates and after a while. My head would start spinning. Because that's just way too much Jason for anybody and this was obviously before cloud formations supported. Yambol. Which means things like a little bit better but still kind of awful. So I was struggling to find a tool that I could just use across. Aws azure because those were the two classes that we kept getting asked to provision stuff in. And I really wanted to create reusable templates for my team because we are really being asked to create the same thing over and over for different clients and I found tariff warm and I was like. Oh okay here is a way that I can build these templates. And they're easily repeatable. All I have to plug in his different values for the variables. And it's a multi cloud tool because you just pick the provider you want to use so if we do have clients to suddenly WANNA use. Gdp. No problem will build new templates for GDP but we still can use the same tool to do it. All so that was I feel like a perfect use case for me. And that's why I fell in love with the tool. Initially another use case would just be if you're a developer and you're used to provisioning things using code and that makes sense to you logically and now you're being tasked to Dev up you know you're no longer developer. You're a devops. And you're being asked to not only provisioned the application but also provision the infrastructure that it runs on terror forms a good tool for that because it's not stepping on your existing Code Deployment Process. It's just one step removed from that in the deployment pipeline. So you can lay down your infrastructure and then handed off to whatever current build tool. You're using so if you're using something like an octopus deploy to get your application pushed out terror. Form doesn't step on. Its toes in any way you can still have that clean separation between the two stages. Let's probably the two primary examples I would. I would put forth okay so to play a little bit of devil's advocate so I m that developer and my my You Know Apple. Applications being pushed out with octopus or Set that up or whatever why why would I want to have tear form or anything else? That's doing infrastructure of code. Why wouldn't I just like set that up once and then I don't have to deal with it anymore. I think there's a couple different reasons. So the first is if you want to recreate that environment for testing purposes if you have the infrastructure codified and you can know set it up in such a way that maybe you don't deploy as large of an environment for your test case but if you want to do true testing rebuild it from the ground up and then burn it all down. You can use infrastructure to do that initial infrastructure build out and then roll it over to whatever your provisioning tool is for the application. That's one reason might WanNa do it. Another is maintenance of that infrastructure so your infrastructure change over time. Let's say you started out in aws and you built this awesome application and it's using an lb and you know aws Kinda like LP's their old we. We don't really like them as much anymore. We'd really like you to use an application load balancer instead for all the layer seven. Goodness it brings and you're like okay. Well now. Since I have my infrastructure defining code I can create an alternate version of that where I'm using the. Al Be build that test environment. Make sure it actually works properly before I try to make that change you know in staging Qa Production. Whatever your environment stack looks like so by keeping your infrastructure in code along with all the other applications that you're running you have a consistency that follows through from start to finish. I think that's hopefully that answers your question. I feel like you might have teed up Clinton nicely for that one. No that was. I mean it was a little bit trying to dea but yet no I think you did a great answer and you answered it very convincing. I try I try and I can't remember if it was last year at Code Palooza in Louisville Kentucky or the year before where some some former colleagues and friends of mine were were presenting. Tear form and Really that that was kind of my first exposure to reform or from anyone that I know actually actively using it at that time and they really just couldn't say enough things about it so I'm kind of disappointed in myself that it took a year or two to to really dive in and start playing around with it myself. What are the the ways to to get started? Are you know just just going through your your initial Video and of course on that and not yet. Moving into the azure specific tear form. Course there's probably more being answered in those courses. But I know that there are ways to kind of create the deployment created a drafting in in the deployment. So can you kind of walk us through how that's built how. That's kind of the best practices of kind of doing those baby steps in those iterations Jer. It'd probably helps to understand the core workflow of care for them. How you get from that configuration file to actually deployed infrastructure and it all starts with year initialisation of the configuration so Tara Forum utilize tear forum in it and it looks at your configuration and basically you're figuration is just a collection of dot T.F. Files all in the same directory when tear form when you pointed out directory it takes all of those files and puts them together into one. Big configuration so you can separate them out however makes sense to you but it's going to glue them all together basically once it has that configuration and you run initialisation. What it's doing is looking at what providers you're using and downloading those plug ins if you're using any modules which we can talk about those later it also downloads those and it also initiative initial is is the back end where it stores its state and we haven't talked about state yet. So maybe I'll take a little derivation to talk about state for a second tier form stores it's knowledge of what's been configured and deployed in a state data. It's actually Jason and that is stored as a local file by default. But you can store it in a remote repository remote state location in the state basically is Matching of Hey I call it this thing. Within my configuration the elastic load balancer called Dev. That has a unique identifier in it and that matches to this actual load balancer that was provisioned deployed in aws esp- basically like a matching vile with attributes in it. So it can make that one to one correspondence between what you wanted to have deployed and what is actually deployed the next step after you initialized. Your configuration is to run plan the very first time you're running it. You don't have any infrastructure provision. So what plan does is it goes and looks at your target environment. In if it's US you gave it in aws account that you wanted to provisioned this in in a region you on to provision in it goes and looks at. There's any existing infrastructure being managed by Tara form. Obviously he's not going to see any so what it decides to do is tell you what is going to create in that region to match what's in your configuration and that all gets spit out during plan so you can review that whole plan and go. Yup. That's exactly what I want or Whoa. Why do I have six lows bouncers? I wanted one definitely. I made a mistake here. Got To go back and change that so once you've looked over the plan and everything is thumbs up. You're very happy. The next step is terr- form apply. And that's when it actually makes the changes it actually provision that infrastructure and it updates the state data to reflect what it provisioned matching to the configuration. That you have. So that's the base workflow. Now let's say you want to update your configuration. You want to change the number of instances you have behind a load balancer. You make that change you save it and then you run tariff or plan and it'll tell you yeah adding that additional instance and you run tear from apply ended actually applies those changes so it does have the capability to maintain your infrastructure on an ongoing basis. And by doing plan you can see what actual changes. It's going to make before those changes get pushed to your environment so that's a very useful step. Not all instructors code tools do that and I wish the hell did I hope. Hopefully that that gives you a nice broad overview of how you would get started with the terror forum tool and how you do your first deployment and that's something that I take you. Through in the plural cy courses like you mentioned. There's also really good learning resources on Hash Corp site itself. It's learned that has she corp dot com or maybe its learn dot tear for that. I oh I don't know. They switched it up a little bit. But you can just go. And how she corpsman site and go to the tear from sub site and it has tutorials that will take you through a bee's aws deployment or a base azure deployment. We did have a question in twitch of does that mean that you deploy in production on Fridays well right now. Every day is Friday or everyday day. So they're all just merging together anyway. That is true. The longest era had so far. So I would say you know. It's just like anything else. You run it through its tests. You validate that you that. It says it's going to do what you wanted to do. But of course once who actually hit the big red button where you apply those changes? Then it's up to the vagaries of the cloud provider to actually do whatever form telling it to do. So maybe not to play on Friday navy deploying on Thursday and spend Friday just toasting yourself. You did such a good job yesterday that you you don't have to do anything today or listening to the day to podcast one or the other one or the other. Whatever whatever it makes sense and you. You started talking about some of the items items in some of the backlog tasks that we have for for building up our tear form of of examples In say hypothetically we might be using azure. We might be looking into as zero. Downtime deployments we might be doing blue green deployments or something like that. I haven't been able to find any. I haven't been able to find as easily as I have for some of the other getting started in recommendations in in the learn sites for tax reform on Best Practices or recommendations on how you might accomplish that. Is that something that should be addressed with? Tara form or is that outside of the scope of of what tearful could or should be used for or what are your thoughts and ideas on on that. Well I will say that just overall. There's an overwhelming body of information about using Tara form with aws. And that's just because it's the first cloud provider they really started with and things really built up from there and aws is still kind of the eight hundred pound gorilla in the room as yours. Obviously gaining ground. I mean Google's doing something they're they're it's fine. I use them. I actually liked their interface. But yeah they're definitely the number three right so the documentation that's there and the examples that are there are very focused on. Aws and how to do things there. Some of that translates some of it. Doesn't as to your specific example with zero downtime deployments. I think I would need to know a little more about what you're trying to do to provide some guidance on how you might do it with tear form for instance we might have a web application in in-app services we might have key volts. We might have storage of of some kind and figuring out how to how to deploy updates to our infrastructure without taking everything off line without causing severe outages or something like that that would probably be handled somewhere a little further up the stack in terms of planning and when I say stack. I'm actually just talking about like the human stack like somebody needs to think about the overall architecture and how you move sessions from one deployment to another you can certainly and now. I'm getting into the weeds of Asia. A little bit so I hope you don't mind you can change the plan that you're different web apps are using if you needed to scale upper scale out if you're trying to change from one deployment to another it's got deployment slots you can also do. You can change the traffic where Moore's hitting one than the other like. I know all of that is possible through Web APPs but if you're trying to cut over safe from like dot net to dot net core okay. You can't do that. You need to take a little further in the stack and have a way to at the load balancing level. Maybe something with like traffic manager or something else slowly. Shift your sessions over to a brand new deployment you can do that brand new deployment entirely through tariff warm and that might be a good opportunity. If you haven't already start using tear form for your deployment. You can absolutely do that. The other thing I'll say is if you didn't start out with tear form and you have all these infrastructure pieces that are already deployed and you WanNa bring them under the management of tariffs. That is something which is supported and in something I get into in the deep dive. I might actually WanNa just Redo that whole section because it has changed a bit but basically there is an import command with tear for him. And you basically you have to create the configuration first of what ardy exists and basically when you import you're saying hey this configuration I have. There's already something that exists and I want to associate that. Id whatever is an Azure or aws with this item within my configuration. And now you're in charge of managing that piece of the infrastructure. So you can do that as well be if you're trying to do that sort of switchover from one language to another or one version of dot net to another. That's something that you're going to need to handle higher up in the stack and just use tear form as the deployment tool to get the INSTRUC- infrastructure out there. What one of the things that I struggled with initially when I was hearing Again the role that I've been playing more frequently Has been allow more of the DEVOPS or ABC's side of things But coming from a very strong developer background when I'd heard of terror form the mealy thing that I was thinking of Blowing my application right so I didn't think of the playing. The infrastructure is getting deployed application than I was trying to figure out. How do I get tear for him to the floor? My application and I don't think it does a very good job at that doesn't And that was one of the. My big hangups was like trying to understand how hot where the limitations are. And when when are we when my deploying my application and misusing reform and what am I basically WanNa really use it for deploying the infrastructure and that kind of finding that line right and and if I can piggyback on that to Ma might even add where if does it belong in in like a a release or pipeline or a build build released pipeline CIC de Pipeline. Is that the place for it. Okay so I'll try to unpack the what we got here. Six all six of the questions. We'll get into that okay so to start out with the application deployment piece of it. You're absolutely right. It is not intended application deployment within tariff for him. They had a thing called. Provisions and prisoners are basically. I want to create this resource and then I want you to do something and that something could be something remote on that resource. Are I want you to do something locally because I want you to write out a file or something wants that resources created and I need the information that's GonNa come from that resource like it's unique idea identifier? Something or I want you to go into that device as as a virtual machine and I want you to run a script it can do that their guidance and this is on the official documentation site is. Don't use provisioning unless you absolutely have to. There's a number of reasons for that. One is if you are using a remote provision it has to connect to that instance either through. Rtp Not already paid through win R. M. OR SSH in these. So you have to enable that remote connectivity on the instance you have to open up that firewall port and then you have to actually do the connection and run the script. So that's not great. You don't really love that. And the other thing is a lot of scripts are not item potent so if this provisioning script fails tear for him just fails. The resources says the resource didn't provision properly. Because it has no idea if you rerun that same script if it's item potent intellectually executes successfully based off of what it's already done so it's safer to just destroy that virtual machine and try again that also can be not great. The preferred way of doing it is to bootstrap your virtual machines using the cloud in it functionality. Of whatever cloud you're using so I think in Azure. It's called custom data or something in that and you can put whatever you want in that field and the virtual machine will run. What's in that customer data field at boot? You don't need to connect to it remotely because it's actually just taking the information give it is putting it in the Meta data service and when the virtual machine boots up it queries. Its Meta data service on. That's a one six nine one six nine. Ip Address and polls down that custom data configured and Brunswick locally no remote needed and it takes hair. Hormone out of the equation. A little bit. Usually what you're doing with that is your bootstrapping it to run an agent or pointed somewhere else that will actually do the provisioning of your application. So if you're using octopus deploy you would install the octopus deploy agents and that usually POPs to mind. Because that's a project that I worked on for. That was absolutely the workflow would like stand up the instance and then after a while. We started using packer to just build the instances with the agent already deployed so packers another Hashicushi tool. But we would you know. Grab the latest version of an. Am I when it was available reuse packer to install the agent and some other tools that they want on there and then use that image as the image that was referenced by tariff for them to build out those the M.'s when we needed them and it would already know to go talk to octopus and do its whole thing so it took terrifying pretty much out of the equation? So hopefully that answers your first. Maybe two questions John. I'm sorry four more to go. I blanked on on what you asked me but I'm happy to listen again an answer. Or whatever yeah. The the one that I talked on was does does tear form belong. Inside the same CD released pipelines that we have in Azure devops or. Is this kind of a a a separate provision the the the environments provisioning the infrastructure With tear form and then worry about deployment of your applications with with all the released by plans. And I think I'm answering that myself as as I'm asking it okay. So I'll enter that in two different ways one if your deployment model is completely immutable and you can just burn and replace. Then you could have the whole thing in one shot because it doesn't matter everything's getting stomped over anyway. Because that's the way you've chosen to approach your infrastructure and application. Not many people are doing that. It's pretty uncommon. What's much more common as you have your pipeline that is dedicated to deploying your infrastructure. And then you have a separate pipeline. That's dedicated deploying the application. Yes they kind of worked together but honestly the updates happen separately. They're going to be in separate code. Repositories maybe you could. You could put them in the same repository but different directories with their own Azure devops. Whatever their equivalent is of Jenkins file Yeah Mall it's like a pipeline Yam but yeah so you can have your pipeline Yambol for your infrastructure in one directory in. That's all handled but honestly it might not be the same teams working on it. So yeah that's probably up to the the gods of repository and release management and and not so much me. That's that's a complex topic more often than on more often than not I found myself on very small. Teams may be teams of one or two so that often is one of the tasks that are divided amongst very few people right. What are the patterns that you could follow? That would join the two more closely together. As if you have infrastructure that's dedicated to only that application then storing them. The same repository makes sense. And that's something that I did on one project where there were application deployment repositories that would focus on just that application and then we had shared services repository and in you know build pipeline and that was focused on all the shared services that these individual applications were consuming the way that DNS was set up. There were domain controllers that were configured like so. That was all managed by a completely separate repository. So you may have that pattern where you got your shared services and then your individual applications and are using to pretty much different infrastructure but in the same environment. I think that's probably one of the nicest ways of heard anybody say it depends seven years of consulting. I know how to say it depends. There are so many of these pieces of in parts and functionality and and tools to help us get to the place that we need to get to. It's it's often very distracting in hard to determine what is the best tool for the job and really it sounds like. It's whatever will help you along the way and won't hinder your progress. So right I the thing I like is that it is very purpose built. It's not meant to do these other things. It's not trying to do everything in the kitchen. Sink it's focused on one task and that's the task that it's trying to do really well and if you want to move to the next task you can pick another tool. That's really good at whatever that task is. I like a good example. Is You know Patchy Corp has a bunch of different products in one is vault if you want to do. I'd like secrets. Management go use fault because that's what it's intended for and it doesn't tried to do anything else. It's not a database product. It's not also trying to do identity and access management notes a secret life cycle. What does same thing with Nomad which is one of their lesser-known products but that is an application deployment tool you run a nomad agent on your fiscal machines versus Michigan's whatever and that nomad agent will pick up new jobs and deploy an application using nomad makes sense. So maybe and I'm just spitballing here. You could potentially deploy stuff with tear form. And then add the agent the nomadic as part of your deployment process and deploy your application that way and then how she corpus very happy because you're using their products by the way I don't work for it. Sounds like they haven't done a very good job of making sure that all of their products in in projects are glued together. That you have to use them all. Now that seems to be their philosophy and I've seen that with other open source shops. Where they're like yes. We make all these different tools. Yes they worked together but you can absolutely use them separately and that's fine. You don't have to push them all together and actually annoys me when multiple products from the same company are so closely tied that you have to use them together not that many companies. Microsoft is ever done something like that. Are there any resources to appoint people to We've talked about your plural site. You know anything else. I one one specific thing that was coming to my mind was it. Sounds like it would be a bit of a task a little bit of learning curve in coming up with all of that configuration for writing typing that out either like places like where you can get templates or like something that can kind of get you down the road like sort of set up. Oh Yeah I mean. There's a ton of examples if you just search for Tara for him configurations and get hub. You might not get the best examples but there are a ton out there. What I will say is so there. Is this thing called modules which I mentioned I don't know like an hour ago and modules are basically a tariff warm configuration. That has been abstracted but it deploys multiple components in a way that makes sense would would be a good example of eanet in Microsoft Azure or VP on aws. There's a lot of potential options and levers that you could pull especially the VP. See 'cause you have to build sub nets and maybe want nat gateways and maybe you want to add a VPN gateway and you set up all the routing tables and rules. There's a lot that goes into that. The module has most of that abstracted for you. You can it. Make some assumptions but then you can also change some of the inputs to get the desired output. So you don't have to build that on your own and all of that. Those modules are publicly available on the tax reform registry. So you can just go on. I think it's registry dot com dot. Io and browse through the modules. There some have a nice check next. I mean they've been validated by the vendor that it is deployed upon like the one that's validated. Someone at aws takes time to maintain that and keep it up to date. So that's a great place to start if you're like I don't even know where to start with the configuration start with module simplest thing to do and then you can just build off of that so that's one good example in terms of learning. I think a lot depends on your learning style. I personally ironically and not great with videos like I get distracted. Sounds ridiculous right. I make them but I. That's not my preferred learning medium. I like follow along guides where I can read something and then do it and then read something and then do it and I try to make video courses similar to that style. Because that's what I appreciate but there is a book it's Terr- for him up and running. I think it's on O'Reilly. Maybe and that's a great resource. If you're more of a book person who wants to follow along and then go do and follow along. You can do that. All step-by-step right there if he wanted to get started up real fast and it sounds like there's got some Microsoft Azure fans out there perhaps cloud shell on Azure already has tear for him. The most recent version of hair form pre installed. So you can just fire up cloud shell it already has tara form and it will use your authentication credentials that you launch cloud show with to to run against the AZURE provider. So you can to start building stuff. Pretty quickly and Microsoft actually has a few example. Configurations that you can run through if you want to try it out. They've been playing very Nice Nice with with Tear Forum Hashish Corp as of recent and. I think it's paid some dividends for them and we've got We've got one more question from from twitch. We have some audio issues early on in in the episode on twitch so the the podcast should be clear. And since we've got triple redundancy. I think we're knock on in good shape so real quick Surly says you may have asked when I couldn't hear but why used reform over the standard. Aws Slash azure offerings. That's why I actually thought that's one of the first questions you start with because that is one of the first questions. I get asked all the time but I can only use cloud formation or I can use arm templates. Why would I use this okay? So there's a couple reasons. One arm templates Jason. Like just painful through. I know some people have gotten used to it and you can use the tools in visual studio code to make a little easier on you but it is. It's rough man and armed. Have no concept of state you can try to do an incremental update but you know knock on wood and hope the stars aligned that it's going to deploy the thing that you wanted the right way and you don't have to just wipe it and start over and the other thing about arm templates and knock against them. It's just the way that they're created is the logic of them. You like built in dependency detection so you have to be explicit about every dependency in your configuration whereas tear form actually does a dependency graph when it's trying to figure things out and he goes. Oh okay well that the m references that load balancer so I kind of have to create that first and then I'll create the VM. And then we're good arm templates. You know if you don't tell it to create one before the other it's just going to try to create the both at the same time and sometimes it doesn't work so well and the world of cloud formation I. It's kind of the same deal. You can do. A Lot with cloud formation especially with stacks. I actually like cloud formation but as someone who ended up working in multi cloud a lot. It just became easier to learn. It's will that. Does both of them? Then try to learn the INS and outs of two separate tools. That do things very differently. And the other thing about cloud formation templates and. They've never really changed. This is it barely has any built in functions so anything you want to do in terms of text manipulation or variable manipulation and stuff like that you have to get really creative about it or you have to create a lambda function and invited invoke it with a custom resource to get what you want done. And that's it works. I seen people do it. I don't think it's very efficient but you know different strokes for different folks. I suppose I mean you have to use. Their product won one of the things that we kind of ask everyone. This is sort of like wrapping up in going in a little bit different direction. But would you kind of talk to our listeners? Who maybe are just getting started. Maybe they're at that Hellas. Maybe they're coming right out of college or something like that. What kind of words of wisdom or piece of advice would you say to them specifically sort of to kind of give them a leg up from where they're sure? Yeah actually do have a bit of advice around this. I do daily check in Youtube Stream. It's only about ten minutes long on my youtube channel and this is one of the topics that actually talked about was how to advance your career. My biggest piece of advice is find someone who's doing what you want to do and emulate the things that they are doing that. Get them there. And I don't mean like copy them one for one because that doesn't make any sense you're you you have your own unique perspective traits. Do you have to bring that with you? Because that's also going to help you advance. But find the person who's doing the thing that you want to do and emulate them and if you can get them to be a mentor. I mean that's even better but even if you can't do that just understanding okay. So I see this person and they have these couple of skill sets of things. They've learned how to do and they're really active in this one community and they've built up a bit of a following through twitter. I'M GONNA try a couple of those things you might find that doing. A couple of those things with your own personal flavor will help you advance your career but also if you if you can't I highly suggest finding someone who was willing to mentor you because that's a great relationship to have and that wall so really help you accelerate your career awesome awesome so folks who might want to get in touch with you or follow you more closely. Is there some social media or like other places that they can do that? No you've mentioned your podcast and plural site. What what where else can they kind of? I know what you're what you're what you're doing. Yeah I haven't scared everybody off already. That's awesome and you want more efficient. Wow so bless your heart. You can find me on twitter. It's ned thirteen thirteen. That's easiest place to find me my. Dm's are open so you can just message me with you. Know whatever you WanNa talk about the other places you can find me. I have a website. It's Ned in the cloud dot com. It's pretty easy to remember. And that has links everything else. All my floor psych courses got a couple of books out. One last plug. I'd just released the tear form. Certified Associated Preparation Guide. There is a certification is terr- form certified associate. It is releasing this week. If I understand correctly and I wasn't exam contributor I helped contribute to writing some of the questions and also reviewing Questions and aside from that. I wrote a preparation guide along with a fellow Microsoft. Mvp and now Microsoft Employees Eight. An army that's available online pub. It's just tear for him. Dash certified but if you search for terrify 'em you'll find it or you can go to my website and find it there so that's now available if you're thinking about sitting for the certification highly recommend the preparation guide and if you have feedback of love to hear it very cool thanks dad really appreciate you taking time to speak with us today. Absolutely thank you for having me. That was NED Belvin. Net is an independent consultant and the world of technology. He focuses on creating content around training education and marketing among other things he creates courses for plural site house today to cloud podcast and writes content for several tech marketing firms. If you like this episode please like rate and review on. I tunes fine show notes blog. Post MORE SIX-FIGURE DOT COM and be sure to follow us on twitter at six figure to have this has been another episode of the six figure developer. Podcast helping others reach our potential. I'm John Calloway. I'm Clayton Hunt and I'm.

aws Microsoft developer John Calloway Tara Jason Clayton Hunt independent consultant Ned Bella twitter Tear Forum Hashish Corp analyst France
Checking Up On Python's Role in DevOps

The Python Podcast.__init__

33:35 min | 11 months ago

Checking Up On Python's Role in DevOps

"The hello and welcome to podcasts. Dot Net the podcast about python. And the people who make great when you're ready to launch your next APP or want want to try a project you hear about on the show you'll need to deploy it so take a look at our friends over at Lynn. Owed with two hundred gigabit. Private networking scalable shared block storage judge not balancers and a forty gigabit public network all controlled by a brand new. Api you've got everything you need to scale up and for your tasks that need fast computations such his training machine learning models they just launched dedicated CPU instances and they also have a new object storage service to make storing data for your apps even easier good python podcast dot com slash node that's L. I. An od today to get a twenty dollar credit and watch a new server and under a minute and don't forget to thank them for their continued support of this show and you listen to this show to learn and stay up to date with the ways that python is being used including the latest and machine learning and data analysis for even more opportunities to meet listen and learn from your peers. You don't want to miss out. On this year's conference season we have partnered with organizations such as a Riley Media Cranium rhenium global intelligence owed. Ese Data Council. Upcoming events. Include the Software Architecture Conference Strategy Data Conference and Pike On. US The GO-TO PYTHON PODCAST DOT com slash conferences to learn more about these and other events and take advantage of our partner discounts to save money when you registered today. Your host is as usual as Tobias macy and today viewing Moesha's about his recent book devops in Python so Russia. Can you start by introducing yourself. my name is Mosha. Zorka have been using python since on ninety eight been using any five and right now. I'm working a senior engineering Andy Remember Hey I could introduce the python. I wanted to use a language to do like Some numerical allowances and they kind of looked around. See what's kind of annoying becky ninety nine eight still like for that. Curling look like the right fit so I learned python and I remember that like the next day it was already reflective site beside this is a good language. And you've actually been on a previous episode talking about your experience working on the twisted package and all of the adventures. Here's the had there so a lot of lengthen the show for that one But in this episode. We're talking about your experience in your book about using Python for devops and since I'm wondering if you can talk a bit about your experience in using python for managing different systems and some of the jobs and products you've been involved solved with that helps contribute to that overall experience. Sure before like the concept of devops serie will sing begging dozen six six. We didn't really have a word for it so But often people with the title of infrastructure engineers would be using one of these things and I basically rammed the infrastructure team at a small startup called behind were basically the whole company was using price on anyway and I read the infrastructure team and back then that meant running the CIC d the The monitoring system and all of that. And I intern six. We are tools for much weaker than what we have. Today's scratching by him. And so as you mentioned the term that a lot of people are using now for a sort of blanket way to encompass the entire realm of systems engineering and systems administration and Server Automation is devops summoning of. You can talk a bit about what that term means particularly in the context of how you're referring to it for the purposes of your book. Sure so I guess it. It's going to be distinct to look at Tim Logically. Right originally had had an OPS team and people would write software those developers end. They would recall soit over the world. The OPS team. Hopefully we sound the communication tation and the obstinate head to keep tuning and whenever it didn't work the oxygen had to figure out why they didn't work. Is it a consideration problem or is it a problem with the actual saucer and if it is a problem with sexual sosa hit to go back to. The developers convince them that is the problem with the software. Get Him to fix get into deployed. Get to document how to use the fakes six and this was very complicated especially when people started making software as a service of decided this is. This is slow down slowing down the Development Work and we should unify. So devops is a philosophy. I of oil for most a bit about unifying the developer in ops in one team one world one team in the devops engineer is the one in charge of reducing the operational complexity and this is a little bit subtler because the engineer is the one responsible for shouldering the operational complexity in Devon seem. You don't have an ox engineer. You have a devops engineers senior with responsible for reducing that they do partially by shouldering it by partially by talking to the developers figuring out how to make the softer easier to operate and partially only by automating staffs and often the automation stuff comes the little bit of an afterthought in like you want to get it fast and whining and Bison Lisa grew language that has interfaces to everything and it's very easy to teach in very fast use. Our became a natural fit for devops in. This is kind of some of the context for my book and so for people who have been using python for developing web applications or writing simple scripts or for doing data science there. There are a lot of different ways that they use the language. Some curious in terms of your experience what you have seen as being the unique aspects of how devops engineers and systems uh-huh administrators use software and the aspects of the language that they find particularly useful. This is a few things here. I guess one interesting historical I notice. In some sense python was invented to be what we now call devops language. It was invented to manage the AMOEBA operating system. Then we were very the system is of course long gun but it was invented and we saw that it would be it would be used to manage systems so this is importantly starkly because and we had the operating system model and like a lot of modules that are needed for managing the underlying unique stuff very early on integrated into the stunned library. This is part of why historically people were like. Oh I guess they already have all these interface to oil stat. which is very useful? If you realize the status of a file or something like that which Java to obstruct the operating system away didn't have an outward these tools so of course if different nowadays a lot of merging existence. Now he's done with like web. Api Python having great web API libraries. Such requests may also like a very good fit for like modern devops and in terms of the particular aspects of using python for managing systems. What are some of the general categories of the types of operations that python would a used for in the context of systems administration and systems automation? I will the easy. Integration with the operating systems that often people will white scripts the tweeden around the Bison on service that collects information like metrics logs incentive to some central place to be analyzed so for example descript through one every few seconds in and grabbed the numbers foam apptime in send it to a collection thing so this could be analyze later those things of course Louis Nice to using price on. Because it's a you either get it from the former web interface or you get it for a while. You're on the command or you get using an operating system interfacing. All these things wouldn't by some the other thing that often people use by Sonny's automating common tasks like a safe. You want to deploy something often. This is a multi So for example deploying you're going to Canary I. Then getting the data from the monitoring system to compare the canary to the default system to check that everything is Okay A. and then doing the rest of the same and maybe there's a few steps in maybe you want to integrate with staging system so these steps are very complicated in often. There are the result of a lot of post mortems so there were the both more than that said. Oh we should have I checked on this facific thing or we should make showed to the canaries one on inside of all the data centers in before launching it and often these things get more complicated and it's pretty nice to be able to fold all these things things into some automated thing instead of making the script of the human heads to follow more complicated immoral and for people who are just getting started particularly Lee and Lennox and UNIX based environments the first experience that they'll usually have as using something like bash or seashell or Z. Shell for doing some of these automation routines and usually as you continue along. That path gets to be a point where trying to use that as the automation language. Just becomes very difficult and clunky and I'm wondering what your experience and perspective is on sort of when the right time is to stop trying to use some of the built in Terminal Languages Terminal Environments and move to Python instead a curious phase because it almost my answer which is as soon as issue type V I it is time to buy them in what they mean by that. Is I often whites like pretty long things from the command line wider four loop with a couple of pipes it and that's all fine right as long as I'm doing it on the command line. They feel like bashed shores Is a great thing if someone's like type. VI are maybe even start with secular copying and pasting the badge. I think to to have something to start with but if you like this is a a good ristic suicide. I actually feel like this is stable enough to be filed. I'M GONNA use Python in partly because because there's so much you put it in the final. This is also about the time that people will want to send in arguments and using arguments Basch is very subtle especially if you want to allow spaces basis or allow other special characters and you have to start quoting hell sourced from the command line. If you misquotes than you can. Immediately see the thing in AD-HOC I took physics. That says you could file someone else who want to use it with an argument that you didn't plan for they feel like that's about to white heuristic and in terms of of your experience over the past several years as you said you've been using python for awhile and working in the systems management space and curious what you've seen. Some of the most is notable changes in the ways the python is being used and some of the types of tools that are available for server administration over that time so live like I said originally when they I started out using by some This kind of construction. You didn't have cloud services and basically you ran your own servers and you knew what was running on them and used advised to manage those service and that was very useful of course but now I feel like most people are running on something like aws. Or maybe Google cloud or even if their the all clouds Too often what we use. We spice is a tool that are one level up from that so for example. AWS has both of three library which is really nice vibrate for managing aws end. Life often used by phone with With both a sweet automated of of aws tasks like Benny Cluster. Off or making cluster. Bigger or smaller and then often nowadays people use things that guitar applegate lab which also have great by from API so often will people will use by API do for example speeding up a new door. You'll make changes across several both Dory's automatically so the focuses shifted a lot to a lot of web. API is better than directly operating system. AP's and as you said the breadth of responsibility has shifted a lot too from when it was just entirely server based everything ran on a physical box and you had to make sure that that box stayed stayed up and running for a long time and up. Time was your primary concern. Now were as you said dealing with these different cloud services and third party SAS platforms so a lot of the context where the python is being executed as different where it might just be something that you're running from your local machine and orchestrating all of these different operations versus something that that you have to deploy to a server to run and that also changes the constraints in terms of what you are trying to do in terms of how you're using python thon where if you're running it on a server you're likely going to be trying to minimize dependencies because you don't WanNa have do maintain it across a number of different instances whereas if you're running it locally you're more likely to you reach out for different libraries because you are not as constrained in terms of the way that that will impact the system and the versions of Python that you're trying to run on so I'm wondering doing what you have seen. As far as the sort of shift in how willing in systems operators will be to reaching to libraries whereas trying to write everything from scratch themselves so I feel like nowadays your ability to not use any library to do anything really interesting by phone is very minimal like for several several reasons wiedeman Bison will starting out we didn't have this great ecosystem so the best way to do a baby. Pi was use your illegal you already two or nowadays everybody. What he says just US requests so I feel like the the minimum point at which you wanNA start using real virtual environment? We by Tom set up beat by a doctor or Dietsch. Votre Lan just manually setting it up is let lower. Usually I guess if I said that the youth by once you have a file you start using dependencies once you have have a library and another aspect of the python run time is that it comes as default on a lot of different UNIX INEXP- based systems but it's not necessarily going to be the most recent versions of that might influence the way that you approach writing the python that you're using for managing these systems and then there's also the difference of if you're actually using python as the runtime for the application that you're trying to deploy these systems it might be trying to target a more recent version than what's what's available in the operating system repositories and so I'm curious what you have seen. As far as some of the challenges that people face in managing the versions of Python on on their servers and the likelihood that the system run time the way that scripture they're using to automate that system are going to be using the built in version. Also like it's more what is the common wisdom is never use the operating system by them. It's it's it's rollout of Right on on Debbie Systems for example the operating system bison would be something really surprising for example you can have by some but not a lot of static library modules that are in w package separately quickly so for the Debbie use case. It makes sense in tweeting. I think the operating system Bison special bulimic system is something that is for the operating system. Why the user being price on that is packaged on say debut on Bolt or Santos is a very good fight song for the libraries that you get via debut on or door sent us but for writing your own scripts usually WanNa bring your own price on? This will make sure that you can control the version of it. An especially loud like people. People often use cintos versions. That are very slow moving and vitaly much more fast moving. That is much nicer. And also that lets you control a lot of how it's deployed Royd and make sure that you have all the bits and pieces that you need in python so I guess this is kind of like the first chapter of my book is how to get the right by from your system and I think on look systems usually what I would recommend to people using by. Yeah that's what I ended up using for. Managing my systems at my work is just using Pyan for installing the specific version that you need for the application. That's going to be running on it because it gives you much greater control rather than having to rely on what's actually in the operating system repositories stories and when it's actually going to be updated because you either could be trying to run a version that's older than what you were initially targeting or it might just surprise you in terms of win at updates and the types of updates that it brings along so surprises are never a good thing in the operating system space and then another thing to talk about in your book is packaging and as you said the packaging ecosystem a number of years ago was in large part nonexistent but at least very nascent and in recent years at has accelerated quite a bit and now it's getting to the point hey where we've got an embarrassment of riches where we sort of have the paradox of choice of which packaging system. We want to use and sort of how we want to bundle up our scripts for deploying to these systems. I'm wondering what your personal preferences are. And maybe talk a little bit about how the ecosystem has evolved in recent years. Sure so against the couple of tools that I think is built on top of PIP and for for its five. Three popular wants A-plus plus one operating system specific generic one the poetry B. and B. Tools and the operating system Pacific I guess penned bend. I'm never sure because actually like I've tried to run into a couple of times and never get the hangover poetry. I felt like it was much more built to help you develop by someone to help you. Deploy by some so. I really like peop- tools so mostly what people people's values doesn't really manage relation relation which I think is great because people take care of that what he does he tells you lockdown dependencies and I guess you said surprises never would think when you deal with operating insistent management or in general you want to know in advance exactly which depends you're using tools is sing that will let you go from. Abstract dependencies. Seems like this version greater equal to this to a complete requirements to the extent filed dependencies plus Hashes so. It's kind of Nice. Will it also gives you a sense sense of security and then when you actually come to the point y'all you wanna use something like virtual him and you can use virtually directly. You can use the virtual innovative view and tap on on top of a Debbie System you can use a dockery docker good fit for your use case and then we will still usually put a virtual inside the docker because makes some aspects of a building docker image easier. I guess if you want to reference for that he gave a really nice talk about how to build Doc Kerr by some base docker images a few years ago in Pike on any covered specifically why should always use for that and in terms of the book itself. What was your initial missile motivation for writing a book about Python that was focused specifically on devops and server automation particularly at this point in time so it it felt like there was like a in need in the market? Why does like a lot of introduction to pipe and books but then because he tweets himself into action they won't cover even like the aspects like packaging and installation that in some sense Meta to someone who's monitoring systems more than aspects of the language offend? You know our rights things. That don't even even have classrooms under just a couple of function the die together a couple of stunned library modules. But mostly what I need to think about is how they get by into the system. How they get dependencies into the system so even in Egypt to book by Chapter Four it will be talking about classes and inheritance which are less important to the system manager than Actually getting by on any of the packages to work reliably. We should into book. Doesn't think he's a very important thing. So the focus is very different and I guess the other thing is that like it. I took a lot of people were using Python Dev ups and they felt like a heavily to see seeks to say about that and maybe that could help people get better at it and for a little while it was interesting because Ruby was starting to take over some of the use cases that python had in terms of the systems management space particularly because of the popularity of a puppet and chef have recently been declining and salt stack. Answerable have been becoming more prevalent and taking over a lot of that same popularity. So I'm wondering what you have seen as far as how those tool sets have influenced the direction of python in the systems automation space and the ways that people are engaging aging with python in that context so Amami funny anecdotes and that is that I recently met a very nice developer from the answerable team and we talked a a little bit about how people use our civil when people start using unstable. It's mostly by writing. A lot of yarmouth files and solicit needs something interesting. They'll start going into like cancelable channel. The ensembles overflow in asking. How do they do it in the ginger thing that I'm still does it? Always the same as soon as you have to ask this kind of questions. Stop doing The ginger thing degenerates the thing that danceable consumed in start writing ensemble modules. So the Nice thing about bouncy ball insult stack. They don't hide the fact that they're invite them the expose it as a feature winning you can write extension modules for sold stack Siebel. We'll do other things and if if you have custody environment that thinks it's way you can write higher level abstractions and implemented in python and part of it. Is that this field to a lot of people like a big job quite right. I was just kind of writing little following. Jinja and now you're telling me to start writing Bison Corden in usually real operating system and this is kind of a good point where like you know will maybe a nice introduction to buy food for system administration is useful and one of the Nice things as you said about the python and answerable ecosystems is. Thank you do if you are familiar with python you can take them quite a bit farther than if you chose to only use the facade that they provide and also salt stack. I know has the the option of actually using python as the syntax that you use for actually building your configuration management and issuing the Yambol and ginger combination and for people who don't want to go down that road so if you like to you actually can go entirely native python using the DSL that they expose. That's a really cool feature. I feel like he's very underrated to us by because Yemen is just a way to specify a dictionary in like. It's really nice to build. Dictionaries invites only as strong liberals plus stall programming so yes the Sold stack exposed is pretty cool. I like that and another interesting development. In recent years in this context of systems administration is the introduction of Python three which has been around for quite a while but it has become increasingly the default for different tools and I know that the sort of primary pain points around the transition from two to three is in the interaction between Yuna Code and strings and bites objects and those are particularly prevalent in the systems domain because of all the networking that happens in dealing with file objects and things like that. So I'm curious how you have seen the python three. Three transition impacting the lives of systems operators. So it's it's funny that you use drink them by The biggest thing to change because superficially yes. This is the the biggest difference between Pisces to entice a sweet but they feel like for that of people who have waited a long time slogan would be ideal. What happened is that a lot of libraries started dropping supports by some to than when you try to agree to seek sure you can deal with like the few strings bites you had in your But you also have to jump versions of library guessing. My experience diesel. This is always been the girl Hilden than Versions of libraries the biggest library requests requests or twisted were pretty careful but other libraries started doing it quite a bit earlier especially likely would not support by some swing the old version so if you need not even support for python you have to jump in new version this is this is. This is a big spending my experience in managing. That of course is very SATCHEL. You often want to jump the libraries with before you jump the version in just Gordon eating that. It's been a huge hassle and I guess you know. People who managed systems tend to be the most conservative people They waited the longest. I have seen the Spain from that. So mostly I can think of Episode at very happy his Mostly reach inclusion collusion. And we've we've kind of suffered but level suffer you have to think about it again. And one of the other aspects of the transition to python three is that there are new built in modules in the standard library including things for managing Ip addresses. And so I'm curious if there are any of those new the standard library modules the found particularly useful. I guess not because even towards kind of like Python two point six already there were such a such good modules in the in the ecosystem. That sure. It's it's kind of Nice. Maybe the standardizing puzzle but it didn't make a big difference in my life like all these The mode you'll struggle. It's it's GonNa be Nicer but that's definitely not where the biggest defensive and going back to the book. I'm wondering wondering what your process was in terms of determining what were the particular topics that you wanted to cover and how to lay them out and what level of depth to go went to in sort of what you had in mind as the level of experience for the target audience. Sure so I guess with the book of ahead kind of like I guess four things things they kind of wanted to cover so the first big chunk. was you know like the bookings goal devops in by phone but the first big Chunky is actually the opposite. It's EXC by some for devops engineers and this means covering like if you want to learn the language You can literally learn. The language was story in one day. But if you want to get some aspects of by useful for devops engineer which means A. How'd you deploy Python? How do you use packages? How'd you ship packages? How'd you configuration of? That is not good resources so the I remember when I when I was talking with Amish about that they were like isn't the usually someone in the company who who does that. Listen yes that's devops in junior and this is the person I'm trying to reach Zuk also the first John Q.. Like we'd be Python for devils engineer. The next two chunks volley feel like is like the the the most common tasks in when managing UNIX style systems which other most popular systems to manage debts. I direct operating system. Interfaces faces so. How'd you manage pulses in files and stuff like that then UNIX historically has always been a very text oriented operating system the configuration files the output? I put a lot of a lot of things that happen. Are Text formats in Saudi. What I felt like you we should cover Some of the common decks manipulation sings noted the level big books about exporting collision Bison but at least the Commonwealth Thing is that you have to a unique industry to like you know getting. CSV files parsing. Spacey's out stuff like that. I felt like we should cover that another fourth. Big Chunk will kind of managing systems as distance. I guess you can call it. Covered stuff like ensembles affleck sold stock how to manage. Aws How to manage docker which are kind of like the most what what we would call modern devops job and were there any aspects of writing the book where you ended up being surprised as you started to dig into the subject trek matter or any particular challenges in terms of how to represent the material in a way that was accessible to the target audience. So I guess one one of the interesting things was The publisher night. Can we talk about covering alcyone sold stack. Because they're the publisher had kind of expensive covering those because he said that those systems can of of move really fast. If you tried to document Savelli find a communication bow to date with the next version because a lot of the modules are different and so instead of focusing on modules which feel the on the communication is good and awfully move fast useful focused on the underlying concepts which can't changed his fast. So you've covered how to do. Extension will use fancy ball in how to extension Stack which not a lot of resources. I do cover but they feel like this was something important and also something. They have to keep stable because they want to make sure that mobiles are useful between versions and so for people who are coming to the book who are trying to figure out the best ways to use python for managing different systems. What's the next step after they read the book and and gone through the material? Are there any useful resources or references that you can suggest or sort of. What's the level of familiarity and capability? Not that you expect them to be at by the time they finish so I guess by the time you finish the book you should at least be able to automate a simple. Aws tasks automate simple will give up tasks Cheap enough that if you just kind of get like a twenty dollar gift card in southern aws. I guess accounts you can play around with that and see how. How did it work? How you set up of service how you would even like bill docker system using the Teaching in the book. And kind of make a whole thing from like from source to deployment with with one check in. We should always a great exercise for devops folks because they feel like this is often where people are trying to go right like the whole continuous deployment and they feel like it's a good exercise for people who want to do devops because these will teach you where the hard things are and are there any other aspects of devops or the ways that python is being used in that context or your experience variance writing the book or anything along those lines that we didn't discuss yet that you'd like to cover before we close out the show I guess one more thing. which is we talked about? The technical aspect of DEVOPS OPS but devops is is a very human oriented disciplined white like a lot of the skill of devops is to know how to talk with developers into that with people who are more operationally focused. configure out what they need. What pains them in how you can help them and often if you can't help them tried to communicate what is the problem in in doing what they want? And you're still zeal feeling that they are in pain but you can solve this problem for them. It's a general. I feel like empathy. The very important Skilling devops did this this is is knowing their Book to teach that skill. But if you want to be successful in the discipline this is known as important and understanding by understanding UNIX. All right well for anybody who wants to follow along with you and get in touch. I'll have you had your preferred contact information to the show notes and with that L. moves into the picks and this week. I'm going to choose the salt stack package. Because I've been using it for a number of years I may have picked up before. But it's definitely a tool worth checking out particularly if if you're working in the devops space because it has everything you need as far as being able to manage systems including handling deploying new instances configuration management software offer delivery. So it's a pretty powerful framework very flexible. So there's definitely plenty of room for hanging yourself but there is plenty of ways that you can use it productively so so definitely worth taking a look and so that all Pasadena. Marsha Debbie picks this week so yes might pick of the ultimate package ultimately the framework for a and finally state machines in Python. I've written will be a little bit of a blog post about it. One Sabas ideas that often you have things that have stayed. You can't do that while you do this. And you can do that while you to death and often find yourselves in a mess of volumes in the NAM's Document which state you're in in having a lot to be statements and automatic to Matt If the famous for making sure that you can why these lot less bugs while still keeping the outside interface of Plano bioethanol which is something that some some other finest state machine packages don't give you which is why specifically and I'll point people in the show notes to a link to the episode that I did with glitter talking about that so definitely interesting package and worth checking out so second-year choice there although thanks and so that I'd like to thank you for taking the time today to join me the and discuss your experience using python for managing systems and writing a book about that to help other people learn how to do it so I appreciate all of your efforts on that front onto hope. Indra the rescue dude. Thank you thank you for listening. Don't forget to check out our other. Show the data engineering podcast at data. Engineering PODCAST DOT DOT COM for the latest on modern data management and visit the site of Python. PODCASTS DOT COM to subscribe to the show sign up for the mailing lists and read the show notes. And if you've learn something or try out a project from the show tell us about it. Email hosts Ed podcast in Dot Com with your story to help other people find the show. Please leave review on I tunes and tell all your friends and coworkers

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Tilt: Kubernetes Tooling with Dan Bentley

Software Engineering Daily

52:18 min | 6 months ago

Tilt: Kubernetes Tooling with Dan Bentley

"Kuban Eddie's continues to mature as a platform for infrastructure management. At this point, many companies have well-developed workflows and deployment patterns for working with applications built on Cougar, netease the complexity of some of these deployments, maybe daunting, and when a new employee joins a company that employee needs to get quickly on boarded with the custom development environment environment management is not the only issue with Cooper Netease Development. When service gets updated, that update needs to be live and usable as fast as possible when Kuban Eddie's related errors occur, these problems need to be easily accessible in a Ui for triage. Dan Bentley is the CEO of Windmill Engineering, a company that makes a set of Coober netties tools called tilt. Dan Joins the show today to talk about the workflow for deploying coober netease infrastructure and the role of tilt the product that he has been working on. If you want to reach thirty thousand unique engineers every day, consider sponsoring software engineering daily whether you are hiring engineers or selling a product to engineers software engineering daily is a great place to reach talented engineers. You can send me an email. Jeff at Software Engineering daily Dot Com. If you're curious about sponsoring the PODCAST and we're also looking for writers and a videographer. If you're interested in working with us, you can also send me an email. Jeff at Software Engineering daily Dot Com. Our thanks to data dog for sponsoring this episode of Software Engineering, daily. In their latest report on container trends, dead dog analyzed one point five billion containers and found that in orchestrated environments container lifespans averaged about one day. To easily monitor this dynamic infrastructure used data, dogs container specific monitoring features. The container map provides a bird's eye view of your container fleet in the live container view, searches, groups, and filters your containers with any criteria like tags and pods and workspaces. And you can try data dog in your own environment with a free fourteen day trial. You'll receive a complimentary shirt. Just go to software engineering daily Dot Com slash data dog to install that agent and get a complimentary, warm, comfortable, cool t-shirt. Dan Bentley. Welcome to the show. Hey, great to be here. You are Google for ten years from two thousand and four to two thousand fifteen. How did Google Deploy Services when you were there? Oh, yeah, that's a great question. And it changed a lot and I joined as an intern on the release engineering team, as Google was getting ready to go public and you started caring. About are their various software engineers who are able to insert the bugs. Pennies and Syphon it to their accounts and so. That was a cool entry point. I honestly spent most of my time at Google not working on services that ran in production as much as the developer tools that ran on laptops, and so I'm trying to swap it in. I worked on Google sheets at the end, and then it was, we had nightly builds that got cut in pushed out and I was working on particularly nasty server, crashing bugs that only showed up under heavy load so i. kind of had to get my change in that day, so that the next day at about three eastern, I could see everything crash in the way that I wanted it not to, and so point services was really up to two. There were different patterns, and you could see that people copied what had worked from teams that they had been on or teams that they were friendly with and. Yet. Each team's culture had some effect on how they deployed to production. That's obviously the Google way of doing things which was back then pretty google specific google is pretty far ahead of everyone else in facebook had their own thing then after Google, you were at twitter for a year and a half and. Twitter was more representative of the broader software ecosystem. So how did twitter managed infrastructure when you were there? And how did that contrast Google? It was really interesting. leaving the Google cocoon and learning about different kinds of patterns, twitter famously moved to scholar, which is a functional language on the JVM and I was impressed with the way that they thought of their systems in a more functional programming kind of way, and so when you look at the paper, by Mario, Ericsson which is fantastic of your server as a function, the gets to how you compose things. I realized I just been taking for granted the kind of storage systems and the way you build things on top of them. That was so different than more popular like event stream. Modeled systems, and so at twitter it was. I think similar issue because a lot of people, ben there, but with a different attitude of we really want to enable. Teams to communicate with other systems in a better way, and so I think when you look at today, a lot of cool service meshes and some that weren't popular, but we're bringing stuff from twitter, so when I think of link or d from buoyant that some x twitter people putting that that way of thinking about. How do you communicate with other services really getting that out to the the wider world? When you started working on your own company in twenty seventeen. You had these past experiences you had been at Google you'd been at twitter. What was your original thesis for Windmill Engineering when the company got started? Yeah, I think our original thesis was that. Cloud could make the developer experience the inner loop as you're typing better. And that could mean a lot of things like Web idee ease, but I think from the beginning. We were really focused on Oh. There's a Greek tweet. That's like A. Debugging is like being the detective in a murder mystery where you're both the victim and the killer. and. We're excited to. At, least save you from having to also be the lab tech. At the CSI that's having to perform the experiments. Show you faster the thing? The piece of data of this bill broke or this test just switched to passing. That's going to give you the Aha moment, of I, i. know what's happening now. I have to figure out how to change. What's happening but to get you back to that? For me at least really fun imaginative part of Software Engineering. So that was our original thesis. And how is that these of making debugging making the software development experience easier? How has that evolved over time and become refined? Yeah, so we built a product that I'm incredibly proud of technically that each time you hit, save would upload just the file contents you changed and run your build and unit test in our cloud in parallel in seconds, and when we showed it to people, a lot of the response was hey, yeah, I've had times in my career when that was what was blocking my productivity, but now it has a lot more to do with building container images, and pushing them and pulling them in scheduling them in a cluster and so what? How I think of it is that our vision that cloud could improve the developer experience ran smack into the reality. That cloud is already hurting the developer experience and what I mean by that is. With cloud, native architectures or micro services or distributed systems. Your, not building. Up in the same way you used to, you used to build your APP as one binary and. For forty years, APPS got bigger by binary getting bigger, and you needed new tooling to shove all those bits into one binary faster and more consistently. And then with the switch to cloud native architectures suddenly you don't just have one binary. Your APP gets bigger by having a more pieces of it and the tools that were meant to build single binary. Well that's all they do, and so when you're thinking of your APP as composing these little pieces suddenly your having to maintain all of these workflows in the state there in in your head so that when you save a file, you have to remember which micro services you do or don't need to restart, and what shortcuts you can use to get them into the proper state. All right well, it's twenty twenty and the Kuban Eddie's ecosystem has had some significant time to evolve. This point key told me how you see the coober netease ecosystem today in in how it intertwined with your the products that you're building. Yeah, I mean I. Think the Kuban as ecosystem. Really the key piece of it is the community the way that. It went from being a project that was written by Google irs and published to now you have all sorts of companies as well as individuals, and just some really great people Stephen Augustus Ian Cold Water Come to mind. That's fantastic I think some of the genius of Coober Netease. is in knowing who their customer is and. You know so you think of some ways to run data, centres or clusters that might target the cluster ops. People of had you just get servers into the racks and being able to accept traffic at all. You think of the ops of is my APP actually serving a to hundreds or their problems, you think of the developer experience I think coober netease kind of realized. There's so much to do here that we can't solve those if we try to solve. All of them were going to have too much to talk about before. We actually deliver value and so. One of the great things about Cooper Netease is that goes. Here's these orthogonal concepts, and so you're able. Really. As the COOBER netease developer. Be Able to be the preferred customer. You're able to get in there. Add things and build on top of it, and that's really powerful. It gives them a defined scope so that you know what is and isn't Cooper Nettie is and a lot of the. They're lots of experiences that you kind of want out of the box except. Then it's opinionated might not match your opinions, and so you see all the different tools to set up a coober nettie cluster. That's kind of outside the scope of the coober netease. Project, and I think the core developer experience of. Azam, writing code that runs on Coober Netease and production. What do I do as I'm in my ID before I have a pull request as I'm hitting save every couple seconds or couple minutes. What's that experience and so? That's really the question that we're trying to answer with tilt. By the way, why are there so many templates Tang and build tools for cooper, netease? Oh, yeah, there are so many different layers to answer there from the Technical to the opinions to the organizational structure questions I. Think I think that people see a whole, and maybe there's not actually hold there. There was something else out there, but there's something that's that's missing. You know the temp leading is is a great one example. There was a jason engine case on it. There was A. Helm is very popular now. Customized got pulled into Kube Kotal with the little drama around it -culing is a new one. That's out there I. Think it's. Really. COOBER NETTIES building blocks. And so, how do you put those building blocks together right like? Why are there so many different? llego models be well because they're building blocks. Different people see them fitting together in different ways in their head I'm not sure if that's a particularly satisfying answer, but I think it's kind of. A lowest common denominator. Let's get stuff going and let's let's see what sticks, and so I think it's an exciting and time also time that can be. Nerve wracking because you have to think when I pick up this tool. Is it still going to be around in two years? That's not particularly fun as an end user. Indeed, let's talk more about Cooper. NETEASE USAGE! Tell me about some of the problems that you are seeing coronavirus teams encountering. What we see is that the incentive right like win. The incentives aren't great. Every run response to the broken incentives in a slightly different way and so. The problem that we see most the that were. most most focused on an and try and. Dig into hear about is. How do you start your APP and change it and some people who run coup in Coober? Netease for production. They just run all of their APPs outside containers on their laptops, and so you just in one to start up the back end in your terminal in another tabby startup the front end, some people use coober Netease, as they're developing on their laptop, using a docker, desktop or mini cube, but then you have problems you have to. Wait because building an image. Maybe maybe it's fast, and it takes ten seconds, but that's ten seconds is different than the two seconds that it was working outside containers. Some teams say we're not going to run our whole APP at all. Instead while we're developing were just running one micro service at a time and as a result if you're trying to add new. New Field to like the user in the APP step one. Is You change the database Schema? You make a poll request. You Linda for it to propagate then the next day you add the code to the back end the after that you add to the front end, and if you realize you needed something different in the Schema well, you're back to square one. And, so how do you? See your APP. As you're developing it, and with what what trade offs do you have to make between speed and consistency? Right, 'cause everyone. kind of wants to be testing the same way that they run in production, but you don't want each developer to have to wait as long as it takes to get things into production, you don't want calf to be paying for as many replica, because for each developer, and so those are. The problems that I'd say I most attuned to. Is that answering the right question? Yeah! I mean there's no right answer to the problems that people are encountering. In. One Way, I think we can explore the problems of developing with Cooper nieces through the Lens of a developer who? New to working with Kuban Eddie's so if I'm a developer. That's nude a working with coober netties. What is my workflow? Is it? Is it hard to get started? How am I getting started? Yeah, so? Just to kind of set the context of what life was like on your previous team. That wasn't on Cougar. Nettie is at least as I understand it to of a platonic ideal, you come in and you type. Maybe it's make server, Basil, build or something you get a server. You started when you change your file. Maybe you hit control C and then you re. Run it when there's a problem. It crashes in the stack traces the last thing in your terminal window, and so you know where the problem is when you come in to see coober. Is You probably have a start? Dot S. H. script that handles doing a docker build to get an image from the source. That's on your file system. Then you then it will take the image that was built. Template it into Yemen's away. And then Kuba cuddle apply it. And that will start one service. You probably have a few or many different services, and they're all running, and because coober netease is really built for production Those logs are just being logged in Coober, Netease. But when you run into a problem, you have to go play twenty questions with Kuba. COUDL Abbas running. You're interacting with it. You see something weird happen. How do you find that out well? It's up to us to go. Ask each individual service. Of what state are you in and I? Think I think every coober netease developer has experience with crash. Loop back off right? This is the problem as something starting up and you wish you'd known about it before. He starting to interact with it to try to interact with it, and so it's really that difference of going from when I hit save. I have one command that brings my APP up to date. In the pre coober netease monolith world to now you're having to keep these different plates spinning and remember what parts of the workflow to do, and it's very custom to your team. It was maybe written by teammate. Who's maybe not there anymore or working on a different part of the project, and so it can be really hard to just. Get a sense overall of what's happening in your APP. Where's the problem? Jay Frog swamp up is an online user conference with more than thirty sessions from cross industry experts, including Google Microsoft capital, one adobe, and more you can get a unique look into the broad develops market, not just point solutions there will be tracks for native develops, enterprise, devops, Dev ops and digital transformation. Participate in expert devops training classes across devops tool security, CIC D. and more, and you could join from two time zones, June, twenty third and Twenty Four for the Americas and June thirtieth and July first to four EMEA and a pack to suit daylight hours across the globe. Go to software engineering daily Dot Com slash swamp up to learn more and sign up. Jay Frog will be donating all conference. Registration proceeds to covid nineteen research. Go to software engineering daily Dot Com slash, swamp up and check out swap up. Are there mistakes that commonly occur where a developer is working with coober Netease, and they accidentally deployed to production. Oh, sure absolutely yeah. The model of what cluster you're talking to. It can be very useful, but it's also easy to do something in one terminal window then switched back to where you were doing your development, so you you checked on what's happening in production and then you switch back and you go. Oh, yeah, this is where I'm developing. You do some command, and only then do you realize that asking about production over on the left means that now the window on the right is also talking to production. Were giving you these very low level commands, and that's great so that you can compose them, but also means that everyone has to compose them that every developer has to be not a coober netease expert, but familiar enough to know what the abstractions are. Even when you're saying. I'm just trying to change some some Java script. I'm just trying to you know, update the constant in this go code. Why do I have to go to boot camp for a cluster system just to make a change? Well already deployed a service to production I'm very frequently going to want to update that service whatever service have deployed to production with new code and I might write my change, and then that changes ready for release. What commonly goes wrong in new releases to production? Oh. Yeah. So I think there are in many org hs and I'd probably say for good reason. A lot of Difference between there's almost a handoff between Ange and OPS and. They're great things about devops. Having it be that everyone can be on call, but there's also a I think a lot of eggs wear. That's not the case. I'm not sure if it should be the case and so one thing that goes wrong is just it takes too long for you to wait, so use merger. Pull request, and then there's some CI system that's starting to send it out, but you're not. Waiting for it into when there's a problem, you've been not just checking. Or read it, but actually starting something else, because if it's taking more than a minute, you're probably not going to wait, and so you've already swapped into another context. It's not like you get a little notification at at most places that there was a problem in so one is just. You don't even know that there's a problem. Then there's all sorts of issues of I was just change in code and something in the way that the cluster was set up. You know suddenly we started using too much ram too much. CPU and that wasn't the level I was thinking at when I was making the change, and so now I, have to investigate these new kinds of problems, and there's often even the social divide of there's more people coding than. Interacting with production, and so you're kind of getting through this semi porous membrane wear different people have different levels of comfort with. Dealing with production and touching it I know lots of people who like to not you. who like to delete their tokens that touch production except when they really need to because. That's a great way to get in trouble. Let's start to talk about what you have built with tilt. Can you explain what the tilts product is yeah I hope so You told me in a in a couple of minutes. Share what we are trained to do with tilt is make it that multi service development is easy that. You can get back to where you were when you come in in the morning or when you join a team, you just type tilt up, and it takes all of the source code for all of your different services, and it spins them up in. So you have a developer instance that could be running on your laptop could be running in a cloud cluster, and you're. You're able to win. You hit. Save then see that code running for real not in a production environment, but you can load it in your web browser, and you can interact with it, and you can change any line of code whether it's go code in the graph Q. L., server or type script code that's running in the front end or a JVM service. Right kind getting live. Reload for your entire stack and so. What's important there? Well, one thing is the speed of from when you hit save. How long does it take until you're codes? Running developers are this fantastic and evil kind of lazy. Where if they see a shortcut, they'll start doing it. And it will end up being unsafe at some point, and then you've saved yourself some time because it's faster as you do it, but. When it gets out of sinker, askew. You then have to spend hours figuring out what's happening. And so I'm really proud. That tilt supports live update that you can actually update containers that are running in the cluster, even in the cloud in less than a second. You would never want to do that for your production workloads, but it's the way that you're able to get the same kind of feedback loop low latency as you had before. You moved to Coober Netease for development. And then I think the thing that we've realized is. You don't just need to get the code out there. You also need to get the feedback when there's a problem when a pods and crash loop back off when it dies when it can't even except the camel. You're able to see it in the U.. I because tilt runs as a web, APP. It's running on your laptop. Your seeing it in your browser at local host, but you're able to get a holistic view, and so in addition to the logs in the center of your screen over on the right. There's a sidebar that shows you each micro service in the. Constellation makes up your APP and a little red icon, and a bad showing you what the problems are when something goes wrong, so you're freed from having to hunt it down yourself. You just sit there and when something goes wrong, you get told it via this peripheral vision. That's a bunch of Nice benefits so the. The example of the the instant build the kind of hot reload experience for when you edit something and Coober Netease, and you get kind of a hot reloading experience. What's involved in engineering and building that? Yeah. Are you talking from the tilt side where we built it or like trying to use it how you how you describe it and set it up from your side. What did what did you have to do to build that? Yeah, so it turns out the COOBER NETEASE API server. Supports this kind of operation. You can run coop. CUDDLE EXAC to run a command in a running container. There's coop, Coudl C. P. to copy files into a container that uses that infrastructure, and so a what tilts doing is. When it Kube Cuddle applies then waits till the pod is ready. And then it is watching your hard drive into when you save a file, it takes that file and sends it to the running container and updates it in place there, and also it can run any build steps you have so that it can work not just for interpreted languages, but also for compiled languages, and so were I. think kind of production izing these things that are part of Cougar netties that maybe they they shouldn't be for production systems. You might want to to lock down a bit more, but. You're able to use tilt just as almost conveyor, belt or pneumatic tube. Wow, those are dated references, a trans transporter from Star Trek to just have your new code running in the container and tilts handling figuring out which container to connect to and how to do the port forwarding and how to set it up. See in order to use tilt. There's an actual tilt instance right. There's an actual tilt application, yet it's go binary with the dravis group Fronton runs on your laptop so you you can just download it from the website, and then in your terminal you type tilt up and then tilts running on your laptop. It's using your cooper netease credentials. It's not having to like. Be something that you're cluster. ADLEMAN has installed on the cluster. And as a developer that's working with tilt. I'm configuring my tilt usage with a file called a tilt file. Is that right? Yeah? Exactly what goes into a tilt file can fiqh so in the simple case you pointed at your docker file and you pointed at your cooper, netease camel and then. Tilt figures out, Oh this image is referenced in this Yemen and so i. know everything from each source file to where it's running in production to use the live update. We're talking about you. Also that kind of information isn't just in the docker files, so then you add some lines to the tilt file. Re say my docker build. They don't just want to build the image each time I save I want to actually sink the files from this directory on my laptop file system over to that directory in the Container File System I. Want to run these commands, so there's a little more work to get the speed we. Also have found that. That kind of description of Oh you just have docker files, and you just have cooper netease camel. Isn't what most teams have an so? I'm really excited that we let you also say hey. My Yamal isn't just a file on my hard disc. Actually we run this python script that generates Gammel, because maybe we have some way of specifying a service within our company, and so that's really what we think of as a Mister Rogers on boarding. Where when you're a project like basil or Cooper, Netease, you can say yes. I'm going to get you somewhere great, but it's going to take a lot of work to set it up, but you know it's worth it because like. We've spent Millennia building this We're a small company, we. Don't have that ability to kind of convince you to do all this work. Upfront so Mr Rogers on boarding is like Fred Rogers of Pittsburgh. Presents Resident Presbyterian Minister. Children's television show. He always said I like you. Just the way you are and tilt your project just the way it is even if you have grungy scripts that. To generate Yambol or even if you're using some other tool to build the container image, you can point tilt at whatever you have set up already and use that without having to re architect it to the way. We think you should do it. 'cause we understand every project has different constraints and we. We embrace that diversity. To the developer experience for using tilts. Is it like I am working with an ID e, or is it like a console tool? Tell me more about that developer. Experience you so. You, keep editing in your ID, so you start tilt in your terminal. It opens up a tab in your browser. Where you get the You I and it's watching the file system, and so when you hit, save in your I D it goes on I know what to do. You just changed. Main, dot, go in the shopping cart service, so I know all of the things I need to do to get it that your personal Dev instance matches it, and so you can see the logs of the build and see how long it took. You can see the logs from the shopping cart service. As it's running, you can point and click. We have had a UI. That's really all the console and we found that people. There aren't idioms for. How do you navigate between DIFFERENT TABS? It's not really discoverable whereas in. The web people know how to pick and choose, and so you can say hey. Maybe I want to see all the logs from all of the services. That's cool to see what's happening, but there's probably a lot, so it can also click on the sidebar on the right on just the shopping cart service and I can see boom. It's red eye. Click it i. see the Stack Trace. That's what's causing the problem that I'm seeing. In my APP right now. Scaling a sequel cluster has historically been a difficult task. COCKROACH DB makes scaling your relational database much easier. cockroach DVD's a distributed sequel database that makes it simple to build a resilient scalable applications quickly. COCKROACH DB is post grass compatible giving the same familiar sequel interface that database developers have used for years. But unlike older databases, scaling with cockroach is handled within the database itself, so you don't need to manage shards from your client application. And because the data is distributed, you won't lose data if machine or data center goes down. COCKROACH DB is. And adaptable to any environment you can hosted on Prem. You can run it in a hybrid cloud, and you can even deploy it across multiple clouds. Some of the world's largest banks and massive online retailers and popular gaming platforms and developers from companies of all sizes, trust cockroach DB with their most critical data. Sign up for a free thirty day trial and get a free t shirt at cockroach labs dot com slash save daily thanks to cockroach labs for being a sponsor and nice work with cockroach DB. Would you call the the work you've done around? 'til was it inspired by docker composed heavily. Oh that's a great question. docker compose is fantastic. It is a really popular way to run different services. It has a really low overhead way to describe what you're trying to do. In a way that you know, no one can just kind of sit down and write a coober netease camel from memory 'cause. There's all these finicky details you just copy and paste. Tilt, actually we. We mainly talk about it sitting on top of Coober Nettie is. It actually can also sit on top of docker. Compose so if you're using docker, compose you. You can start everything up. You can see the logs together, but without you adding hacks. It's not updating you. After after you hit, save remember. Oh! I need to go rebuild and restart that service You're not able to dig into the the logs as easily and so. kind of both cooper, netease and docker compose dockers warm are about orchestrating containers. Tilt almost a level slightly above that of orchestrating the development, the workflows from when you hit, save until the codes running and then back to win. You know what happened when the Code Ram. So just so he can kind of level set here. Could you rephrase? What are the problems? That tilt is solving for the COOBER Nettie developer. Yeah one problem is. Having to deal with a bunch of different tools between the docker build and the Kuba coudl apply and. Having to know those tools. For each developer is a lot of cognitive overhead to add and so tilt understands the workflow automates it. In the same way that. You're build tool automated combining the different libraries. With a monolith. You didn't have to know every library from day one with Cooper Netease Development. You need to know each micro service because you deploy them all separately. The other problem is speed that dealing with building container images slows you down. And then another way you're slowed down is having to go hunt for problems instead of having them pop up so that you can see them when they occur her instead of when you think to ask Hey. Is the service ex- broken. So, you also have CI tool. Right like tilt. Oh so. No, we, we say that we're. We're like your I d e were for when you're in your I, D e. we've thought about the space and we think the same way that you have a different way to release the final. Binary versus what you're using as your editing. We think that we're in the space of as you're editing not of how you released to production. Got It so if I am a deploying using tilt? There's this new tool that I are the that I hadn't heard about when I was reading through the tilt documentation called kind Kuban, and he's in docker. So this is the ability to deploy coober netease within docker container exists how deployments work with tilt so till works with any cougar netties cluster, and so you can pointed at your AK s or e KS or G K E or you can point to that many. Many cube or docker for desktop now, also right as Cooper Netease is becoming more popular. There are more ways to run a coup venetis cluster on your laptop, and so kind as one mini cube is one docker for desktop, as one microclimates is another, and so we been elder is doing great work on kind, and so it's just a really easy way to get started and has really few dependencies, so we recommend it because we hear from a lot of people. I just have to reset my my local cougar netease cluster on my laptop all the time. I'm having to delete. VM's and kind seems just kind of gotten it right. Cool and so the business around tilt is tilt cloud. So as I'm using tilts if I'm managing my. Deployments this way managing my infrastructure. I might WANNA. Share the data that's being generated off of my infrastructure. What's the data that comes off of tilt? And why would I want to share that with other developers? Yeah! So we see the world as having apt of who are writing the code that runs in the cluster, and that's the vast majority of of Dave's end of users of tilt. Then there's also the developer experienced team the decks team who's setting up that help file so it's not each user to set it up. It's checked into your repository and it's maintained and. The kinds of questions of what's my developer experienced like what's the data? You can ask questions like that of what's running in the cluster. Because you have observability for the workflows that run on workers laptops, it can be really hard to actually know. What's billed time actually like what's the ground truth and it can change a lot because different people have different generations of laptops or have crowded hard disks and so. Took cloud for now is mainly for that developer experienced team. We think it's the. Infrastructure for one production is a CO workers laptop, and then you answer the questions that observability gives you in the data center, and CIC de give you about releasing with confidence to the data center till cloud is for the developer experienced team to actually be able to show the impact they're making. In how have you seen? It be used by developers. So One of the features were were really proud of his snapshots. which is when your in the Slack Channel in Your Company slack and someone comes in and says hey. is anyone else seeing a problem with the shopping cart service? You as the developer experience engineer. Enter into this. I think frustrating for everyone game of telephone was. Were you ask? What are you seeing? No, not that line like go to this other log file and pull this and so. With snapshots because tilt has a web Ui. We can just upload nap shot of what's in that you. Why not as a screen shot but as all of the data so that If you're helping me in slack, I can just send you a link. You can open it, and you can click around and get the answer to the question of what's blocking me and you can get someone going again in twenty seconds instead of trying to set up a screen share. In was the snapshot tool. Was that hard implement? So. Because of the way that the tilt you I is implemented. Really snapshots are almost I feel like I'm giving away giving away all the secrets here Paste been If you. If you remember that we take Jason Data. That's all everything that the till I knows about we upload that to a server, and then when someone else comes and looks at it, we give them the same Java script in that June that the tilt web APP and the Jason That's the data that was uploaded, and you're able to see it pretty easily. Very cool, so it's not like an actual like distributed systems level snapshot of everything going going on at at any given instance in in in your infrastructure. Exactly and that's also something that we hear and is is on our road map I think one reason I'm excited to be in the space. In addition to the community is I think for all the reasons we've mentioned being the best coober netties tool is like being the meanest muppet. It's just not a very high bar right now, and so we're going to. Have to get better, and that's exciting but right now just giving someone that access of what are the logs? What's crashing? You know solves the same way that you know. Pointer heirs are eighty percent of bugs in languages with null pointers. You can fix eighty percent of bugs really quickly in a way that you haven't been able to before. So I think the way to describe your the vision that you're going for is basically in your ideal world you. If you're if you're managing cooper netease cluster. You also have this tilt node in your Kuban Eddie's cluster and you're tilt node does things that are useful to you, and there are plenty of generically useful things that that note could do. Yeah Yeah, you have your own instance of your APP and a you is, that makes sense of it. Right yeah, the U I U is something we. We didn't really delve into that much, but the idea that like you have all these services running across your cluster and the tilt. You is a gives you a perspective into what all these different services are doing. Yeah! Well told me a little bit more about how you expect the space to unfold. How do you expect the Coober? Natives ecosystem to look in the next three to five years. Yeah. I think the best description I've heard of. It is coober. Netease has an air of inevitability and I think it's still not you know. What everyone is using but I think there's really exciting things happening and so I hope that we. See. More and more pieces of infrastructure that are accessible in Cooper Netease I think you see you know. Traditionally cloud providers have had some console that you can go to to spin up new resources now you're starting to see especially Azure and GCP I know best have coober netease custom resources so that you can say hey, I want a cloud, sequel or Cosmos TB instance. As coober netease camel, and then it gets spun up. You're able to control more of your infrastructure from one common interface I. think that's pretty exciting. I think we're going to see more and more. It's almost like coober netties. Let's is zipping up the stack right. Everyone kind of had vm's, but what you did on those VM's how you deployed to them was different I. Think you're seeing that now. People are building especially at large orders, their own layer above coober Netease K. native is an open source. One I think. If you go to lots of orders, they have a way. What's the next layer above right like even if coober netease is there, how much do people have to know about it? I'm really not sure what the answer is. I know get for instance claimed to do this. They have this whole notion of porcelain, so that people have a better interface, but they were all such leaky abstractions that people still have to know about. Get a I'm really unsure but excited to see what happens with. What's that next layer above cooper? NETTIES? Is there one? Is there three or they're five hundred? I just don't know. Very reasonable question Dan thanks for coming on the show. It's been great talking to you. Yeah you to.

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