20 Episode results for "World Resources Institute"
Carbon pollution from the fashion industry is on the rise
"I'm Dr, Anthony Wits, and this is climate connections. When you shop for new clothes, you're probably not thinking about the climate, but making apparel creates carbon pollution, and the industry's emissions are on the rise as people by and discard their clothes more frequently. The problem is made worse by the rise of fast fashion closed cheap to make and cheap to buy. But chin-yen of the World Resources Institute says apparel companies are starting to take climate action. Many companies globally are setting targets, and then really trying very hard to reach those targets yen co authored a paper that can guide the industry. She says the biggest challenge that clothing brands often outsourced manufacturing to companies in other countries. Those companies may rely on others for raw materials which. which makes it hard to measure and reduce carbon pollution, so a lot of these brands are doing is to educate an engaged the suppliers. I think that's what we want to see him. We're seeing more and more for example. Levi Strauss helps. Its suppliers obtain low interest loans for renewable energy, efficiency projects, and Nike is helping manufacturers from fossil fuels to solar and biomass. Yene says Moore suppliers get involved. It will help reduce carbon pollution throughout the industry. Climate connections is produced by the Center for Environmental Communication to hear more stories like this visit climate connections. Dot Org.
Fighting Global Warming Requires Changes In How Cows Are Fed
"Support for NPR and the following message come from Amelia Island, Florida a barrier island on the northeast coast that captivates visitors with thirteen miles of uncrowded beach championship golf, natural beauty and a historic district Amelia Island dot com slash NPR this week in a way, we've been bringing you stories from the future describing a world in which we have actually stopped climate change. And today, we turn to food in a zero carbon world your dinner plate may not look all that different. But some big changes have to happen down on the farm NPR's. Dan, Charles traveled to South America to see how those changes might happen. A scientist named Akobo Aranka was traveling in a forest part of his country Colombia when he ran into a big cause of global warming. He couldn't see it. But he could hear it. You could hear the chainsaw cutting the forest on the local telling us that this is nothing unusual for them. They were hearing that. Every day. And they all knew what would happen next after land. Clearing comes cattle grazing, a version of cattle-grazing that's careless and destructive and Tim searching from the world Resources Institute says it's incredibly common grazing land is about two thirds of all the world's agricultural land. And about a third of that came right out of clearing forest. This is a climate disaster. I because cutting trees and tearing up soil releases huge amounts of carbon dioxide and then cattle released methane powerful greenhouse gas as they digest grass and leaves. There are greenhouse emissions from other kinds of farming to from plowing and from fertilizer added all up and growing food accounts for a quarter of the entire climate change problem, it could grow to because billions of people around the world are getting richer. They wanna eat beef to there is no solution to climate change that doesn't dramatically reduce the land. You. Demands and greenhouse gas emissions of agriculture searching or and his colleagues have laid out a road map for how to do this. It includes lots of things less food wasted ways to capture those fertilizer emissions. But maybe the biggest piece of the solution. Hakko Ranga wants to show it to. Arango works at the international center for tropical agriculture in Colombia. And he's brought me to a farm in the Petia valley, not far from the country's Pacific coast. This is cattle grazing land wide grassy pastures lined by trees. Noel Lee on goal. Must Garum is calling his cows moving them to a new pasture. And this new pastor is bovine feast, the grass is up to my waist. This is not the ordinary grass that grows wild here. These are varieties were specifically bred and selected to be top quality cattle feed. And so throws. I moved made. I don't have any money. How moos? Anyhow Moos uncle Luma scare the farmer says these grasses grow so fast. And they're so nutritious he can keep four or even six cows on the land that used to support just one he does have to manage the cows more carefully moving them every few weeks to new pastures when the grass is ready, but it's worth it. My MSCI Imaz must got more milk more meat. He says he doesn't mention it. But it's true. These cows are growing so much faster. They aren't releasing nearly as much methane per pound of milk or meat. We are looking at an essential part of a world without climate change. So researcher Cobo, Iran gun I or just gonna pretend it's here. The year is twenty fifty and global warming is ending the same way we stopped mining cold generate electricity, we've stopped mining the soil to grow food is different now into fifty and in this zero carbon world, this is what cattle-grazing looks like all over the tropics. Farmers aren't just letting cows. Wander around and find something mediocre to eat any more. They're treating their pastures like a valuable crop. These was critical to change the mindset of cattle growers so greenhouse emissions are way down. Production is way up and clearing. The rainforest has stopped. There is no need to go to cut the almost one for example to a livestock probes. And there's one other thing that saved the forests Tim searching her at the world Resources Institute says Americans are eating a lot less beef now in twenty fifty half what we used to. That's a really really big deal. You now see alternatives to beef and dairy products everywhere you travel in the US half, mushroom, burgers and fast food chains. Philosophies and train stations non dairy cheese on pizzas, people who stop at these places. Don't really think about the big global impact of all this. But it has been an amazing shift. There are almost ten billion people in the world now in twenty fifty. People are eating better yet. The Amazon is still there has not been sacrificed to grow food in fact in parts of north and South America. Even on that farm, we visited and Columbia more trees are growing we're putting carbon back in the soil. Dan, Charles, NPR news. At climate series was edited by Jeff Brumfield, and it was produced by Danny hijack.
FoA 265: Climate, Land Use, and Agriculture with Richard Waite of the World Resources Institute
"Fellow egg nerds. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of the future of agriculture podcast. My name is tim hammer rich. And if you're interested in where innovative ideas meet practical realities in food production. You have found the right show. I like to kinda mix things up here a little bit on the show. Which means that. I'm often going back. And forth between very specific stories of what innovation looks like in practice in agriculture and then the more philosophical type conversations sort of. Ask big picture questions about where agriculture is headed hence the name of the show future of agriculture. Today's episode is going to be a little bit more of the latter in these types of episodes. I typically like to bring on someone who's thought deeply about a topic. I'm wrestling with and just sort of fire. A bunch of questions at them. Feel like i come away from episodes like this much smarter. And that's definitely the case today. Most of you who listen to this podcast are like me in that your fortunate enough to have an abundance of food choices. It's a luxury that of course hasn't been afforded to a lot of people throughout human history and one that comes with new questions to ask ourselves and probably the most basic and fundamental of those questions is what should we eat. I mean what is right for us. Nutritionally economically and i'll go ahead and say it sustainably as with many of the questions we pose on this podcast there of course isn't just one straightforward right or wrong answer but it's still really important question. In my opinion to ask and to try to analyze our guest today has spent years diving into these types of questions and analyzing the environmental impacts of the food system and what can be done to optimize the amount of food that gets produced and distributed while minimizing the negative externalities. That come from growing food. Rich way is a senior research associate in world resources. Institutes food program. He's an author of the world resources. Report creating a sustainable food future which focuses on solutions to feed ten billion people by twenty fifty including boosting agricultural productivity reducing food loss and waste shifting toward plant rich diets and protecting and restoring forests and other natural ecosystems. Rich is also the data lead for cool food. It's an initiative that helps major food providers reduced food related greenhouse gas emissions in line with climate science prior to joining. Wri in two thousand seven rich lived in cameroon for four years where he served as an agroforestry extension agent with us peace corps and helped coordinate the us embassies international development programs today rich. And i discussed that for all the talk related to climate change in the footprint of the food system. There's been actually very little progress to really reducing that carbon footprint. We discuss why actions have to be taken and what the data tells us about what levers are available to be pulled to realistically make that happen while producing and distributing adequate amounts of nutritious food to people around the world. I'm going to drop into the conversation. Here where riches talking about why. He truly believes in the work. He does at the world resources institute. I mean one thing that i really like. Is we work right at the intersection of environment and human development. And so yeah. It's all about sustainable development and we're research organization but all the research that we do is apply and so we talk about research into action or ideas into action and we talk about our approach as counted changes. Scale it so to count. It is all about the research and the data that we do and so we'll probably talk about are creating sustainable food future report. And that's you know we did remodeling to look at different scenarios of food production and consumption out to the your twenty fifty and what that would mean in terms of deforestation and climate change and the ability to feed ten billion people and so on and then the change at pieces where we work with different stakeholders to try out some of the sort of different recommendations that flow from our analysis so one of the things is a shift where we eat a lot of meat towards plant rich diets and so we worked with this program called the better buying lab where we worked with food service companies and universities to test out sort of different strategies. Like how do we name different plant center dishes. So they're more appealing to a general audience. And then there's the scale it piece which is trying to design programs to figure out. How do we work with people to implement something had scale and so an example of that is the the program called cool food that we work on where we've brought together forty different companies universities restaurant chains hospitals and so on then collectively serving almost two billion meals a year and then we're all working collectively to try to reduce the climate impact of the food serving by twenty five percent by twenty thirty. So we start with research and numbers and data and so on. But then you know. Everything's trying to connect to. So what does that mean in the real world and you know. What can we do about it right yeah. I think that's one thing that drew me to wanting to reach out to you is your work. Seems to be first of all data based but second of all not just isolating for one thing not just saying like okay. How do we reduce greenhouse gas emissions at all costs even if that means we feed. Everybody can't feed everybody. Like you have to incorporate those realities and you all seem to do that. My understanding is between two thousand ten and two thousand and fifty if we're going to not raise our temperature by two degrees. It's going to require a twenty five percent cut in greenhouse gas emissions. I got that from reading some of the materials of yours. My understanding is you know that's what it's going to take. How are we doing. It's twenty twenty one between two thousand ten and today how we doing along that path. Sure well it's actually even more than that so the challenge that we're looking at is like you said yong out to twenty fifty probably gonna add another couple billion. People to human family is going to be something like ten billion people on the planet by twenty fifty house the world going to feed everyone well also deforestation which needs to happen to keep the climate below one and a half two degrees of warming and then also reduce greenhouse gas emissions to stabilize the climate at an acceptable level. And we'll need something more like a two-thirds cut by twenty fifty in agricultural greenhouse gas emissions. And if we want to get all the way to net zero emissions which is what folks are saying needs to happen to stay within a one half degrees celsius of warming. We're gonna need to accompany these big cuts in agricultural greenhouse gas emissions with a lot of reforestation as well in order of hundreds of millions of acres of trees where they used to be so. It's a really really big challenge. Your question is how are we doing now that we're already in twenty twenty one and we're still kind of moving on that business as usual path for the most part if we look at i think. Between ten and twenty seventeen agricultural greenhouse gas emissions are still growing. We're going to need to peak that and and reduces kind of even more sharply than if we had peaked in two thousand ten so kind of all the different things that we looked at between the farm in the fork that could be done are still relevant today and you know more urgent than they were ten years ago. Is there any evidence that we can provide food at net zero carbon emissions without some sort of offset like you said reforestation. Well i would say no. I think unless there's some sort of technologies that you know nobody's dreamed up yet which you know who knows thirty years from now. There's a lot that can happen with this. This model called globe agri which essentially it's like a bunch of excel sheets all hook together basically allowing you to make different assumptions about food production and farming systems and about consumption patterns levels of waste. What people are eating and so on. And then it'll help you estimate how much land that's gonna take. And what the effects on greenhouse gas emissions are because agriculture keeps expanding into forest that causes deforestation which causes more climate change. And we need to stop that and we were in a whole bunch of different scenarios and basically to feed ten billion people. There's going to be some level of greenhouse gas emissions. you know. hopefully it wouldn't be what we have today but it is still going to be of some level and you think about you know is it. Is it going to be reforestation. Is it going to be agricultural soil carbon. But it's going to be getting more carbon on the land to essentially offset some of those ongoing emissions because truly getting rid of methane emissions or nitrous oxide emissions our carbon dioxide emissions in agriculture. All the way down to zero while still feeding billions and billions of people. Yeah i don't see how that's possible but there's a lot that can be done on the land to you know. Try to soak up some of the carbon in the atmosphere right and i was interested in in reading some of your work that one of the top things that we can do to reduce and you know obviously i gave you a binary question i can. We get two zero or not and we've got a long ways to go before anywhere close to net zero where we can make some ground. That's what we'll focus most of our conversation on his. How do we do better like you know. The goal doesn't need to zero but it probably needs to be better. And i know one of your top solutions is greater productivity per land area. He talked a little bit about that and our report. There's one scenario which we kind of call like between us. The nightmare scenario which is like well. What would happen if you took kind of. Today's farming systems in tried to use that to supply the additional fifty percent or more of food. That's likely to be needed by two thousand fifty right so we need fifty percent more food in the food supply and we just kind of expand everything that we have today out and basically what that would do is we'd have to knock down like three billion more hector's of forest which is basically all the world's remaining forests to feed everyone by twenty fifty. Now that's probably not going to happen. Because agriculture improves. Its productivity every year. Right you can look back. The un organization has data going back to the nineteen sixties and you can see crop yields and the amount of meat and milk per hectare of pasture growing year on year. So that's not like a reasonable assumption that you're just gonna take today's farming systems and feed ten billion people with them in twenty fifty. But it's a good thought experiment and that would mean massive amounts of deforestation. Now think about that scenario and then our kind of business as usual scenario where we just kind of assumed kind of historical rates of improvement in crop yields and and in livestock in meeting milk output per hectare feeding. Everybody at sort of what you can expect. Diets will look like in two thousand and fifty. Even then we're talking about another six hundred million hectares of deforestation and that's about twice the size of india again still a huge amount of land and if that amount of deforestation occurs between now and twenty fifty. It's probably gonna put you know. Climate targets out of reach right. We have to reduce emissions from fossil fuels. Obviously in the world's working hard on that and has to do even better but even if we get that right you know. We're still going to clear another six hundred million hectares of forests. The climate is going to continue to warm more than we can take so one of the big messages of our report. When you're talking about the problem is from a climate standpoint. Yes we need to reduce our fossil fuel use as much as possible but also work on reducing emissions from agriculture deforestation. We're not gonna get to where we need to climate so we need to do both. Obviously carbon markets have been the hot topic. Everybody wants to talk about right now. I definitely see where there's a noble ambition behind paying farmers to sequester carbon. I wonder if one of the unintended consequences might be exactly what we're talking about here. Which is more land used for agriculture or incentivized to agriculture. When maybe that's not net the best thing for the planet in the end if the world's agriculture kind of stayed as it is today and we had to feed a lot more people and you get a lot of deforestation if it continues to improve as it has over the past decades and you can reasonably expect it. Will we still get quite a bit of deforestation if you want to get the deforestation down to zero and not only that if you wanna then open up some areas that are currently producing food to put some trees back where they were before. Which is what you really need to get to net zero as we were talking about right. You need this kind of large scale reforestation. You're going to have to improve productivity even quicker than you ever have before right so we had the green revolution. We kind of need to do that again. Plus and do it without some of the environmental impacts. So that's of the big issue. If we need to produce more food while freezing agricultural land footprint you know stopping encroaching on forest and even free up some land for reforestation. And so that's going to require you know kind of unprecedented productivity improvements and that's why it also requires looking at consumption patterns and things like reducing food loss and waste and and in places where we eat a lot of meat you know shifting to a more plant rich diet although it doesn't mean everyone has to become a vegetarian. Oh good yeah no. I think that's an important point there. At that last one because i think the twitter mob or cetera wants to paint you into one of two corners which is all meet all the time as much meat as possible and no meat and you know hating animal agriculture and i definitely think there's a middle ground. There's nothing wrong. In my opinion was saying the plane. It would be better off if we ate less meat. I mean our our report. It was kind of very strong to part message on meet which is again. The population's growing incomes are rising in many parts of the world and where incomes rise. You know especially if you know. People are being lifted or lifting themselves out of poverty. You see consumption. Grow that scene that sort of across every single country in history so those trends that are that are happening and probably will continue to happen and from a nutritional standpoint especially if you're talking about in rural areas of developing countries where people are consuming very little animal products from inch nutritional standpoint moderate increases. It's a good thing so there's that going on so then that means there's probably going to be some increase in meet demand so then the question is well. How can we produce it kind of as sustainably as possible. How can we reduce emissions from beef production. How can we in. Places where productivity is is lower so that tends to be in the tropics. How can farmers sustainably intensify production. So they're able to produce more meat and milk without increasing pressure on forests. So there's that and then there's the in places that consume a high amount of meat cutting back shifting towards plants because what that essentially does it helps open up planetary space for those who are eating a very low amount to increase their consumption. So it's sort of both so it's it's definitely not black and white and it's not ten billion people going vegan but it's also not diets. Don't matter whatever you want it's producing. It is sustainable as possible. And then we you know think about consumption patterns while this question may may wander a little bit outside of your area that you normally speak in so you tell me if you want to go down the showed or not but one thing that comes to mind for me is okay. Let's let's say people do eat less meat and people do eat more meat alternatives. What does that do to our agricultural system that is so built upon especially mid west. Agriculture is really built upon two things. And that's you know animal agriculture and ethanol. Let's say if those two things we decided it's better for the planet that less of that happens. I don't know that. I buy the argument that it's easy for them to just switch to you. Know pinto beans. Kim kroger kale or i just don't know that i buy it so not to say that are mid west. Farmers should be protected at all costs. But i'm just kind of trying to wrap my mind around more as a thought exercise of like what does that look like. Yeah you know think about going back to the sort of the point that it's not all black and white. I mean one interesting. Factoid is if you look back to the nineteen seventies in the us per capita beef consumption has actually dropped by a third. It reached a high in somewhere in the nineteen seventies. And it's an since declined by about a third individual per capita meat. Consumption has grown a little bit since the seventies has people have kind of shifted from beef towards chicken but again the fact that folks have reduced their beef consumption by about a third. Then you look at total beef production in the us. And it's held pretty steady since the nineteen seventies. Because what happened. We added another one hundred twenty million americans and if you think about that that's kind of that's kind of what the world on a more macro level is looking at over the next three decades where again probably going to be adding another two billion people to the planet. We're going to be adding another couple billion people at least to the global middle class and so demand for meat and dairy is probably going to continue to grow and then the question is by how much and in places where we consume a lot cutting back probably more export opportunities so again. I think that where the conversation kind of falls apart. Sometimes is if you're not looking thirty years ahead into the future and you're saying well what if someone needs less than it's like. Oh no my markets disappeared in the wall will know the global markets probably going to be growing and food is traded across borders. So i think i mean that was one of the things that came out to me and the work that we did is that there's like there's a path forward for folks in when we're thinking about how to sustainably feed ten billion people obviously thirty years a long time so there's a lot of different directions that could go but i would encourage folks to think about that that its global markets will probably grow. And there's already kind of precedent for shifts having happened and yet there's a path forward for folks. I think did that. Answer your question. it's a it's a really good point. Well it wasn't where. I expected you to go but it's a really great direction. No i appreciate you been with i. What over a decade now. Thirteen years and win along those thirteen years. Did you first hear about regenerative agriculture. In you know. What are your thoughts from somebody who's been looking at the issues that regenerative agriculture is sort of being exposed to help solve. What's your impression. Yeah that's an interesting question. So i mean a lot of the research that we did for the creating sustainable food future report that twenty twelve through twenty yes seventeen eighteen because we publish it in two thousand nineteen and was near the tail end of it that i think you know you saw the the term jenner vaga culture sort of taking off. I know the paper just came out that actually graft it. And i think it was like through the twenty tens. You can see this like this huge takeoff in mentions of regenerative agriculture. Kind of you know in the literature and the media or whatever and it's obviously very hot topic right now. There's a few things to unpack there. I think one is different. People will define it in different ways. I think a lot of people define it sort of across a suite practices. I think sometimes people use it as a shorthand for soa carbon sequestration. And i think you know you see that in policy circles with companies and one kind of worry that we have is there some sort of really big estimates of soa carbon sequestration potential out. There you know to the point where when people think about climate change mitigation in agriculture. They start with soil carbon sequestration and sometimes even end with it. And there's all these other report you know talked about the importance of reducing livestock emissions and reducing fertilizer emissions and reducing emissions from rice production. Which is maybe a little less. Relevant the us. I mean there's a couple of things going on one is you can look all the way back to the two thousand seven. I report the intergovernmental panel on climate change report and when it looked at mitigation and agriculture. It estimated really large mitigation potential from no till and from grazing practices and the thing is in the years since two thousand seven. The scientific understanding of some of that stuff is changed and scientists have kind of revised those estimates downward. But i think that idea is still sort of you know very prominent. So there's that going on and one other thing see a lot of these days is also four. People are sometimes conflicting the potential to sequester more carbon on the land in places where we're continuing to produce food and what you would think of as agriculture versus sequestering more carbon on the land in places where you are no longer producing food so you're talking about reforestation if you're talking about wedding peatlands where you're producing food right now. In on the carbon comes back. People sometimes talk about well. If you're convert cropland pastureland you will sequester carbon but you'll also produce less food on that land so there's this kind conflict with the ability to get carbon back on the land sort of everywhere across landscape and the smaller ability to do it in in places where you're still producing food and then it all gets kind of talked about his regenerative agriculture. So i if i said that clearly but it's actually really important point because again reforestation. Yes you'll get a lot of carbon back on the land but you're not producing food there anymore. That's not what i would think of as regenerative agriculture and yet some kind of put it all together. Yeah yeah yeah in to make. Sure i'm kind of tracking. There's a real danger in over indexing for soil carbon sequestration so that if you if that becomes the end all be all of metrics it really ignores the trade offs of were sequestering more carbon in our soil. but we're using you know twice the amount of land. We really need to proceed crops win. Maybe the tradeoff there is that if we could reforested half that land we would get more know carbon sequestration and less fewer emissions right. I mean you said that very important word which was trade-offs mentioned before that like you know across the tropics. There's places where more cows could be put on an acre of pasture and through agroforestry civil pasture type techniques and that people would group that under regenerative agriculture. And that's also a case where you're boosting yields on the land so you're also reducing agriculture's land requirements so it means you're reducing pressure on four so that's like there there's not a trade off where there is a trade off is the scenario that you talked about where you know. Maybe i'm sequestering more carbon on the land but if if yields go down which is not say they always will but if they do go down well food demand is still going up globally so that foods produced somewhere else. And what does that mean. It's probably land. Land-conversion is going to happen somewhere else in carbon is gonna be lost somewhere else. So you have to think about sort of these system wide impacts of these that we're recommending and i think there's also one other thing which is like you know people talking about agriculture and climate and it's just it's music to my ears right. The biden administration's talking about agriculture playing a big role in you know in the fight against climate change and you hear a lot of companies talking about too and it's like this is great. You're working never been cooler exactly. And some of these regenerative techniques by and large. They're all good for building resilience to climate change but that's not the same as mitigating climate. Change is that same as reducing emissions and. That's that's just an important point to make and both are really important. We have to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions and get more carbon on land. And we also have to build resilience. But you know to your point of we don't want run the risk of over emphasizing the potential of anyone solution at the detriment of others because one of the biggest messages of our report is like you really have to try to do everything at once And you know just like. I would be uncomfortable if tomorrow there was a policy to. Let's try to make the entire country vegan and it's like you know there's all these different improvements from the farm to the fork. I think we have to be innovating on on all of them. If we wanna get where we need to be. Yeah it seems like there's analogy here with weight loss right where it's really hard to sort of exercise yourself out of weight loss. You really needed you. Need to reduce the consumption to kind of get there and of course it sounds like oh well i'll just play more basketball and then i'll still eat all these big macs and kind of doesn't really work that way right. Yeah that's right. I mean it kind of reminds me of lake being depressed after run on the treadmill for like an hour. And you burned three hundred calories or something right and then you eat a one thousand calorie meal right right well and and it's an important point and you know i think again. It's really really really amazing. To see all of the sort of energy around. How can agriculture be a part in the fight against climate change and it's really attractive to think about removing carbon from the atmosphere and putting it back on the land but it's also about reducing greenhouse gas emissions and. That's just it's just it's just really important because there's a lot of opportunities there. Oh absolutely yeah and it's less sexy to reduce emissions. I wanna talk about this. Who'll food program that you have you mentioned earlier. Can you talk a little bit more about that. Because i think what's interesting to me right now is whether it's through consumer pressure or political pressure or es gee there's these food companies that are saying like okay. It's time we we really start engaging on this front so can you. Maybe talk about that program. Yes sure so so cool food. It's a group of like. I said it's about forty companies right now and a few few city governments and hospitals and universities restaurant chains and they've collectively pledged to reduce the the greenhouse gas associated with the food that they're buying and serving by twenty five percent by twenty thirty. And then like i said at the beginning we need to agricultural sector needs to be looking at reducing emissions by at least two thirds by twenty fifty so that twenty five percent by twenty thirty from where the group has started would kind of get folks on the path science based greenhouse gas reduction target so companies take the pledge and then every year they track the different types of foods that they purchased over the year and they they report that to us. We help them estimate the associated greenhouse gas emissions. We play that back to their companies and then re report out once a year. How the group is doing because again. It's sort of like a collective effort and we're actually just this week going to be publishing our first update report. The group's progress through twenty nineteen and we've seen a significant greenhouse gas reduction which is really cool because it's kind of as companies. We're kind of just joining so it's great to see that. So far we work with them also to help them think through the kind of different things that they could be doing. You know whether it's changing types of dishes that they're serving or sort of their You know their cafeteria or menu layout or promoting certain dishes sort of taking the latest from behavioral science. Help them think through a plan of given the way their business works. What are some different things that they could be doing to move their offerings in a more climate-friendly direction. And then we work with folks who are making progress to sort of then kinda showcase progress and talk about the different innovations that they're doing to kind of show what is possible. And so that's kind of how the program works. And how are they getting the data from their supply chain to validate this. Because if i'm let's say i'm a farmer and i'm growing wheat for general mills. What's in it for me to tell you what i'm doing so that you can feel better about yourself and your emissions. Just just kind of to take on voice of farmers that i personally know. Yeah no no the way. It works right now. Is that the coup food pledge members that we work with source the majority of their ingredients through the national distribution channels. If you're based in north america will use like north. America average greenhouse gas emission factor for each of the different ingredients. We do leave it open for folks. Who if they're sourcing from a particular supplier particular farmer and we can figure out. So what's what does that mean in terms of greenhouse gas emissions compared to the average then will work with you to figure out how to how to revise that a lot of times that's trickier though because if you know the further you move down the supply chain the less visibility. You have up the chain right so a lot of it is for the moment using north america. Averages if you're if you're based in north america europe if you're based in europe the production pieces super important as well so you know as kind of traceability improves. And as our ability to translate changes that that farmers are making into greenhouse gas emissions estimates. That will incorporate that as well and at this point. They're doing this voluntarily Do you see a future where it's sort of like nutrition facts where you're not allowed to put something out there unless you have been transparent with the carbon footprint of that product. It's interesting i mean. I think there is a lot of interest right now in carbon labelling i know there are some companies that have started doing it voluntarily. We actually have a sort of another arm of cool. Food called kufuor meals and pinera's the first company that we're working with where they've actually published the greenhouse gas emissions of each of their dishes on their menu and they've marked the the lower emitting ones this coup food meals. And if you go on the panera now you can kind of look through. And there's a part of their menu that's sort of lower michigan food and go on their website and see calculation so so there are companies. That are starting to do that. It would be interesting too because to your point. You can't right now easily. You know you can't go to the grocery store and go to the meat counter and look at all the different cuts of beef and say well this one was twenty three kilos of co two per propound in this one was twenty six and this was nineteen like we. Don't have that visibility right now. So you know there. Isn't that sort of link backward from the consumer to the producer to do. I mean i could see things moving in that direction. Just j- just given all of the interest right now in combat climate change and in transparency. And you know for those who are leaders and making real strides in what they're doing. They'll probably want you way to to label that as well right. Yeah and i mean. I could see a couple of pinera if they're saying okay. We want to We want offset our our footprint but rather than going and buying credits. Why don't we just improve our supply chain to offset at that way if there is a big variation between one supplier and another in that that creates an incentive for that supplier and this is all living in fiction my head but that would make sense to me that could be a direction at all. Goes i think yeah. I mean i think again. People are probably only to get more sort of concerned about climate change going forward. I mean it's just been interesting to see like the conversation has changed quite a bit even here in the us. And we've seen we've seen a lot of effects of climate change right here and you know all these extreme weather events that we've seen over the past two or three years people are. I feel like people are talking about it in a in a way that they weren't even a few years ago and probably assume that would continue going forward. So then then what are we gonna do about it. Yes so that gets to the question right. What are we going to do about it. You know. I think agriculture. If we're going to say something good on what we've done is certainly the productivity like you said the productivity is growing tremendously and it's kind of amazing that we keep finding ways to be more and more productive omland. We are producing. You've got this regenerative movement. That may be over hyped but is still doing some things especially when you think about missions from Fertilizer use as an example. You know that drastically drops in a real regenerative system not necessarily those that just claim to be what other areas are. We making good progress in on all this and again you started with the productivity piece. Because i think there's a place where maybe agriculture hasn't gotten the credit that it deserves from climate standpoint because the fact that we're growing so much more on land means that you know there's deforestation that would have happened somewhere otherwise to grow those crops to grow that meter dairy products. And so there's there's a lot of progress that's already been done. And we'll need to maintain and keep improving productivity going forward even places the us where it's thirty pretty high and we talked about livestock emissions livestock production accounts for about forty percent of us greenhouse gas emissions. And so. there's a study out. I think last week. Experimenting with feeding seaweed tha cattle and i think in that study in whatever conditions at us reduce the methane by like eighty percent. I know there's a feed additive called three. Not that i think's reducing methane emissions by about thirty percent and it's not available on the market yet but it's sort of companies are testing it out so there's things like feed additives different ways to manage manure all these different things that can help reduce livestock emissions and then. You're you're fertilizer. Point is true. So i think you're you're talking about if you use cover crops at traps more nitrogen in so you don't have to use as much fertilizer. So there's that and that's really good. There's also the potential to use these. They're called netra fixation inhibitors. It's a compound that's including the fertilizer and it reduces the amount of nitrogen that's lost into the soil into the air because it can be hard to apply the perfect amount of fertilizer. And you know it's easier to over apply it a little bit then under applied a little bit right if you can reduce the amount of nitrogen that's being lost through you. Know the composition of the fertilizer itself it can reduce emissions. So there's things like that and you know some of this is going to. I think you know require some sort of government programs because if it becomes more expensive for a farmer to use technology that doesn't improve productivity or profitability shouldn't impact it because if it impacts it that's a trade off. You don't wanna do that but if it doesn't improve profitability by itself it doesn't pay for itself is gonna have to pay for it and it's climate change so we should all you know society has to pay for that so it'd be really interesting to see if the biden administration looks into what are some of these technological innovations that could help reduce greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture. And if it's gonna otherwise implying that a cost to the farmer while you know how can we pay for it so we all benefit but it doesn't impact the farmers bottomline absolutely. Yeah i think. I think the seaweed in cattle thing is a perfect example. That's great reducing methane by eighty percent. Who's gonna pay for it whereas the roi for that producer. I don't know mean unless somebody's willing to pay them. A premium. beef is not there. So yeah i think i think you bring up an excellent point there. Well i want to talk about individual change versus systemic change. And i think this is probably a good context to discuss in. Can you talk about how you look at those two things. And what's the stem change. Might look like yeah definitely so. I mean when we looked at this question of shifting towards more healthier and more sustainable diets because it did come out in our in the modeling that we did that. It is an important part of the puzzle. So then how does that actually happen. And it's a bit different now but if you look five ten years ago sort of a lot of the work around dietary change and you know what's good for you and what's good for the planet a lot of information education and trying to raise awareness and that's obviously not enough a few years ago. There was a survey done in the us and they ask consumers will wanna eat more more sustainably and three quarters of them said. Yes and you ask. Consumers will want to eat more healthy and like ninety percent or more say yes okay great and then you follow them around in the supermarket or at the restaurant and there's a difference between sort of awareness raising and action and so when we talk about systemic change i mean yeah you talk about policy and then there's also sort of consumption environment right like people make their food choices. They may say they care about the environment. But it's really price taste convenience quality or safety of the food. Then you get down to things like you know sustainability or animal welfare so on where consumers care about that. But it's priced taste. Convenience matters a lot more so than it's well you know what do menus look like. And what a restaurants offering you know where things put on store shelves in so unlike all of these things affect the environment in which we make our food purchasing choices and then there's policy as well which is also important. Well i tend to end with the question. I should have started with some weird thing. That i trap. I fall into all the time but you know the reports called creating a sustainable food future right so defined sustainable when it comes to food. Obviously we've been talking all about emissions and carbon footprint but sustainability in. My opinion is much more broad than that's i you know. How do you define that. Yeah it's a really good question because sustainability has all these different tillers right. there's the environmental pillar which folks tend to focus on and we did today with the greenhouse gas emissions. there's the economic pillar right farming's of business. It has to be profitable for for the farmer and has to be affordable for the consumer otherwise. It's not going to be sustainable. It's not gonna work. And then there's the social piece to in our report. Since it was kind of focused quantitatively on climate know on avoiding deforestation we kind of defined it using environmental terms and we defined it as by twenty fifty. Everyone's adequately got enough food to eat. We've eliminated hunger. We've eliminated deforestation and we've reduced cultures emissions in line with kind of where the climate science says. We need to be to avoid dangerous levels of climate change. So that's the definition that kind of we use and we work backwards from there but you pose a really good question because my definition of sustainable or how. I used it today or in. This conversation might be very different than someone else's definition and some people are looking at certain practices. And they're you know certifying. Certain practices sustainable. Some people are taking the approach that we did. Which is you sort of. Look at whole societal outcome. And say if we achieve that through all these different measures then it adds up to being sustainable. That's kind of different things. But they do linked together. So i think you know folks. We use the word whether it's sustainable regenerative has the same issues. It's good to be very clear what it is. You're talking about and not talking about 'cause i think otherwise. Conversations can kind of break down and people can talk past each other. I always ask every guest. Is there any one or two startups. That are out there. Doing interesting work that you think are producing potentially promising results in your field of study. One thing that we of only touched upon on is is food waste and so there's a company called appeal sciences. And they have this product that you can spray on produce. The dramatically increases the shelf. Life of the produce. And so things like that could help you know just like we talked about netra fixation. Inhibitors for fertilizers. If there's food loss that happens between the farm and the market developing countries for example if there's ways to cut on that through new technologies like what like what appeal is doing. I think that's really really interesting. 'cause we talk a bit about behavior change. It's really hard to do things differently. So if there are the technological breakthroughs that reducing inefficiency or somehow you know reduce environmental impact or increase increase efficiency. Somehow i think these are going to be really important to helping us solve this huge food. Climate challenge okay. Great shout out there to end our episode to appeal sciences. Thank you so much to rich. Wait for being on the show. I really do appreciate his data. Driven approach to some of the biggest challenges and opportunities facing the future of agriculture. Rich is one of my favorite people to follow on twitter in. I highly recommend you. Follow him as well if you're not already. He's just at weight rich which is last name. So w ait. I thanks as well to those of you. Who continue to share this show on social media and with your friends. Special shoutout to quin colour. Who recently tweeted about the episode to sixty one we had with jordan lambert. It's really appreciate it. And and one of the best ways you can help to support this show. I really do appreciate your time and your attention. I don't take it for granted. I'll be back next week with another story of aggravations.
How To Get Meat Eaters To Eat More Plant-Based Foods? Make Their Mouths Water
"Support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from the UPS store, offering services from shredding to printing to mailbox ING and instead of closing this holiday. The UPS store is doing another ING altogether. Opening the UPS store every ING for small business. And of course, shipping we know that going meat free is good for the planet. Still for those who like steak eating vegan can be a tough sell. That's largely because vegan and vegetarian foods. Just don't sound appealing to people who like meat companies making plant based food are realizing they need to woo customers with more innovative products and tantalizing descriptions NPR's Maria Gedoan has more. Have you heard about the new health craze meatless burger with toga, man? Justin Timberlake once dressed up like a piece of tofu in a Saturday Night Live sketch. He plays vegan food hawker, and he's competing for customers with a sausage vendor by singing, his little heart out all. Say seek out in the end. Even the sausage vendor is one over. But in real life plant based foods can have a bad rap as being well, boring, which is finding people to create positive associations with how it's gonna taste and don't feel. It's very indulgent. That's Daniel Venar d-. He's the director of the better buying lab at the world Resources Institute. And it's his job to give plant based foods, a PR makeover, we found the meat free is actually one of the least effective terms because it makes people focus on what they're missing not what they're getting. We need to make the dishes sound and fail. Delicious and appetizing. So he's appealing to the critique within all of us for the last few years. The NAR it's been working with food companies behavioral, economists and marketing experts they've been testing whether changing the language on menus and packaging can change consumers minds about plant based foods in one instance, they teamed up with Pinero to see if they could lose sales of. The restaurant chains black bean soup. It was originally labeled as low fat, and it was called vegetarian black bean soup cerebral net. Pinera's vice president for wellness and food policy. She says the company decided to try out a couple of new names in different markets. The winner Cuban black bean soup Cuban really in a lot of folks minds when they react to that. They think of a flavor profile, you know, a little bit of heat a little bit of spice, and that makes people hungry and it worked sales rose by thirteen percent. The results were far more dramatic when the better bind lab teamed up with Sainsbury's a British supermarket chain. They took a dish called veggie sausage and mash, and they renamed it to Cumberland spice sausage in mash, which sounds like a traditional British sausage dish. Which from my Sunday. Brits sounds very appealing very very appealing sales shot up by seventy six percent. The supplies for me was how much. Of an impacts language can have on Obering Pavia. Now, if you're thinking that using language to make food sound, tastier seems pretty obvious, ding, ding. You're right, which marketing one, that's John Stanton. A professor of food marketing at Saint Joseph's university. He says for too long businesses that sell plant based foods have been failing at this basic concept. Shading amyloid store they hold the vegetarians, and it's a much bigger market of people who want to engage in the lis-. Ultimately, it's consumer sold decide of plant based foods fit that tasty Bill which the world Resources Institute says would be better for the planet by its calculations. If everyone on earth swapped out thirty percent of the red meat. They eat in favor of plant based foods, it could achieve half the greenhouse gas. Reductions from agriculture needed by twenty fifty Maria Godoy NPR news support for this podcast and the. Owing message come from Comcast business. Having the nation's largest gig speed network was just the start. Now, they're providing gig fueled apps and solutions that exceed expectations and help businesses perform Comcast business beyond fast.
An Update, and Climate Denial Makes the Cable News Rounds
"The congressionally mandated national climate assessment was released on Friday. The report detailed. The fourth national climate assessment was released on black Friday the day after thanksgiving two thousand eighteen lots of folks were talking about that being a deliberate attempt to bury the report, but it seemed to have the opposite effect have never seen a climate assessment. Get so much attention. Here's one of the authors. Andrew light distinguished senior fellow in the global climate program at the world Resources Institute talking about this has meant to CBS's Reno nine the main takeaways that climate change is already affecting every part of the United States region by region and just about all parts of the economy. And that as we report if we don't aggressively move towards reducing the production of greenhouse gases than we are going to see worse and worse impacts by the end of the century. So according to the report, can you say that humans are really directly responsible for climate change. Yes, absolutely authoritatively. There is absolutely no doubt that humans are the ones that are causing climate change. We're seeing. Spikes in the production of greenhouse gases that are leading to temperature increases that we have not seen for hundreds of thousands of years at this point. Unfortunately, the decades old problem of false equivalence was on display in coverage of the assessment to meet the press. Anderson Cooper, three sixty and state of the union all brought on climate deniers to provide quote balance to their shows had a couple of people criticize this show for a lack of balance to suggesting that such balance would be provided by someone who doesn't believe in climate change. It's worth replaying this clip from scientists story Neo me arres keys on this question of supposed- balance. When journalists asked me that this problem of balance. So when I prefer to call false equivalence, honestly, I get a pit in my stomach because this has been going on for so long, and it's so distressing. And it's so hard to fix any journalist think that being objective means giving equal time to quote, both sides of an issue. But in the case of scientific work where scientists have worked on a problem examine the evidence and come to a conclusion, the really isn't an equal and opposite side, sometimes I make an analogy or metaphor with sports reporting. If the ANC he's beat the vets hawks last night, six to one journalist would report that and they would not feel compelled to find someone to claim that the score was actually six to four or that. In fact, the Red Sox had one six to one that would be seen as completely preposterous. As in fact, it is but for me as a scientist and a scientist joy in the kind of false equivalence that goes on times journalism is as preposterous as if we were looking at both sides of baseball game. And I think the fact that Jonas don't get that as part of the problem. We all understand baseball. We know that baseball game played by certain kinds of rules at the end the game a score. Most journalists don't understand that. While scientists not game is played by certain kinds of rules sign. Follow those rules on when they come to a conclusion than in less. You have new evidence there really isn't another side. I mean westervelt. And this is drilled. Take a listen to what this attempt at balance on the cable news shows actually looked like meet the press hat on Danielle Plaka with the American Enterprise Institute and host Chuck Todd failed to press her at all on this bleeding lie from the standpoint of those who have doubts about this. And I don't think we can have any doubts that there is climate change whether center for Jennifer, I don't know. I'm not a scientist. I look at this as a citizen, and I see it. So I understand it on the other hand we need to also recognize that which is had two of the coldest year's biggest drop in global temperatures that we've had since the nineteen eighties. The biggest in the last hundred years. We'll talk about that. Because it's not part of the agenda. The United States has been dropping in THEO two emissions thins. We pulled out of Paris. There are actually good things that are happening. We are not using dirty coal anymore is the Europeans. Who are using dirty coal actually is some corporate leadership on. On this. Yes, we need to deal with these problems. Yes. We need indicate that things we see. But we shouldn't be hysterical. She says they're about how we've had supposedly some of the coldest winters on record recently is just not true. It's something climate deniers liked to sail lot. They repeat it all the time. But the fact is of the ten coldest winters in the past hundred years, not one has occurred since nineteen thirteen but it's worth pointing out that climate change doesn't mean we're not gonna have winters anymore or we're not gonna have cold spikes climate, scientists Catherine Heyhoe had to explain why in her appearance on CNN. So when resume the prison Tweety last week he wrote on quoting brutal and extended cold blast could shatter all records, whatever happened to global warming. So I just want to give you a chance to answer that question what did happen to global warming? I mean, the president's saying we'll things are so cold. What about that old global warming? Well, there's this little thing called winter that happens every year and during winter we have cold snaps. Whether is what happens on a certain day in a certain place, but climate is the long term average of weather over at least twenty to thirty years. So even though last year, we broke ten thousand cold temperature records across the whole US. We broke over thirty thousand high temperature records the same year and long-term decade by decade by decade, the planet is warming. And we're seeing an increased risk of heat ways to go with it. So is it more extreme temperatures on either end that we're going to be seeing more of we're used to sing hurricanes and heat waves floods droughts and wildfires but climate change is exacerbating them amplifying them, boosting the amount of rain that falls during advertiser Cain, increasing the area burned by given wildfire that interview took place the day after Heyhoe took to Twitter on number twenty seven. To call out. Anderson Cooper CNN show for bumping her interview apparently to give more airtime to this guy. Look at whether history. I mean, there are no more hurricanes now than there was one hundred years ago. We've had we've had fluctuations in weather patterns for forever. And the idea that the California wildfires are because of climate change the California wildfires is because they didn't clean the they didn't clean the floor the fourth. That's former congressman Rick Santorum a longtime climate denier who often accuses climate scientists of creating climate change to get rich. However that supposedly works. This episode of drilled is brought to and part by seal press, publishers of some great two thousand eighteen books, including so you wanna talk about race by Joma allu-, girl talk. What science can teach us about female friendship from Jacqueline and Roz and minute book. Forget having it all how America messed up motherhood and how to fix it. I know a book about motherhood might seem a million miles away from an investigative series on climate change. But the book is a historical look at how ideas about motherhood were formed and a lot of the issues. There are very similar to what we see with climate change in both cases this country's obsession with individual success over the common. Good has contributed to a whole lot of unnecessary misery. Anyway, check it out at love to hear. You think you can buy anywhere books are sold. You can find links to all those places on my website. Amy, westervelt dot com slash book. Okay. Back to the show. When CNN made it up to Heyhoe by running the interview with her the next day, including that snippet. We heard before a lot of the interview focused on her just sort of reacting to some of the most ridiculous climate denial tropes. Here's an example. The president told the Washington Post a, quote, one of the problems that a lot of people like myself, we have very high levels of intelligence, but we're not necessarily such believers. He says, look we can have all the clean air clean water that we want and that's what he wants. But that it's China. It's India that other countries are not following rules or not do not have clean air, and that we're paying a price for that. And it's really their fault. Well, the reality is that China leads the entire world, including the United States in the most installed wind and solar energy. He's confusing air pollution with carbon pollution air pollution is the dirty stuff. We see in the air in China's cutting down on that too. But carbon pollution is the stuff. We don't see that lasts for hundreds and even thousands of years. And that's what's responsible for our changing climate view of the president. Has he ran on is coal beautiful clean coal. I think we're was the phrase. He often used coal worldwide is one of the major problems here. It is coal is the most inefficient and dirtiest ways to get our energy today, and in many places across the United States, including Texas where I live solar and wind energy is already cheaper, not just than coal. But then that tro gas as well, so again to me, this is a clear example of how manufactured climate Nile has skewed how the media covers the topic. San Torah got go on for several minutes sharing various theories largely unchanged and in those minutes. Heated something rescues his talked a lot about he mixed messages to make his overall take seem a little more plausible. What's in terms at about forest management? For example, is half. True. Forests have not been managed in a way that mitigates fires. That's not so much because of environmentalists, which is of course, what syndrome blames on leader in that segment, but because of a mix of factors. I of course, we keep building farther into forests second because we have such a low tolerance for fire. The. Small fires that would've stork -ly burned off old trees and brush, our new longer allowed to burn and that contributes to overgrowth check Cohen a research scientists, but the US forest service as part of the problem is also that we don't understand the difference between the intensity of a fire that would burn a house down versus what might cause human harm? Pain and injury from that heat is -nificant -ly less than what it takes to ignite would or even chart general belief that all fires are intense enough to set our homes ablaze has led to a sort of zero tolerance policy for fire that has led to increasingly larger fires as trees are left to grow. Unburned? They not only provide more fuel for fires in general. They also grow together to create a canopy that spreads fire quickly or working against ourselves. But it's not these issues alone that had contributed to California's increasingly intense wildfires. It's also major changes in climate as Cal fire. Chief Ken pem lot explains. Things are changing if you ask career firefighters out on the fire line who've been doing this thirty thirty five years. These are not the kinds of fire the conditions. We were facing, you know, just a few decades ago. So really it's forest management, practices, plus development, plus climate change. And when we talk about climate change, they're it's not just the intense heat waves, and those vicious. Cycles of drought. Followed by intense storms generate more fuel for fires. It's also the gradual warming of nights which used to be when firefighters could get on top of fire now or seeing nights or warmer there, also less, humid. So fires are continuing throughout the night in a way that they just didn't years ago. All of that together has led to the sorts of massive scale. Fires that we're seeing this year and Pimlott says that scale of fire is just not common changes. It's happening. We're seeing again more intense. Fires fires burning more rapidly. They're getting larger that one hundred thousand acre or more fire used to be the exception to the rule. We might get that every few years we're getting multiple one hundred thousand acre fires each year instead of getting into this kind of complexity around climate change or even a particular example of climate change, Catherine Heyhoe, a brilliant climate. Scientists goes on TV news shows and she's put on the defensive immediately because the climate deniers are allowed to set the tone for the story. And as she told us before. That's all been done intentionally here. She is in a previous interview talking about how that's all been created. And to in points. I think were in Hazan's testimony to congress tonight, maybe eight and the Copenhagen meeting in two thousand nine why were those inflection points because those are the two points at which major industries recognize that they would see significant reductions in their bottom dollar recognize that they had to start doing something to prevent legislation because if they did take actual we would have legislation to reduce it actually eliminate carbonation. So those two point for when people sat up and realized we have to when I people I mean, those the most lose from climate legislation that up and said, it's war. We have to do everything we can to stop this thing. And honestly, not even stop it and say to subsystem. Even stop it because Neville, just too late because every year that goes by me carbon reduction legislation is another year bottom dollars. Month before the climate assessment dropped the intergovernmental panel climate change PC released its latest report as well. Also, some fairly dire predictions take him together. The reports spell out a clear need to act on climate. And that's what will continue to explore in more seasons of drilled next year, the various blockers to action on climate and what's being done to overcome them will continue to investigate corporate funded climate denial. We'll spend some time looking into what's been happening around pipelines as well. And we'll spend some time with those crab fisherman. I mentioned briefly in the last episode the guys who are suing thirty out oil companies for their role allowing climate change to continue on checked. Thanks for listening to the first series drops a reviewer rating if you haven't already and we'll see next year. Drilled is produced by critical frequency and written and reported by me. Amy westervelt music in this episode was composed by David whited are cover. Art was created by Lucas Akao ski you can find drilled wherever you get your podcasts. Drops a five star reading. If you like what you hear at helps us, find new listeners. Plus we have to deal with the problem. Lot of pods. Do not criminally Eire's hellbent on taking our ratings. So help us out. Thanks and see next time.
Pillagers Of Tropical Forests Can't Hide Behind Clouds Anymore
"This is a holiday weekend because of course it's president's day for many people it has also been a weekend of celebration because the year of the ox began on the chinese calendar in new york city. The lunar new year usually brings visitors and revenue to chinatown. Although this year the pandemic is making the fifteen day festival that began last friday less. Celebratory camille peterson reports practically every day. Michaela waste transports herself by computer to distant. Tropical forests were in the central african republic. Zooming in she's sharing her computer screen. We see a map of the forest gritted from a flood of images. Collected by satellites. Weiss works for the world resources institute and she helps run. This site called global forest. Watch behind the scenes computers sift through the images as they come in day-by-day and when the software detects a when trees have disappeared. It issues an alert if we can detect deforestation and other changes as soon as they're happening then there's a possibility to send it law enforcement or or what have you to actually stop it before it goes further. There's some evidence at this work. She says according to one study in places where people know they're being watched. There's been less forest clearing one problem though when it's raining or cloudy. Regular satellite sensors can't see the forest and rains a lot in the tropics in indonesia. My impression is the rainy season almost all the time. So there's like there's almost always cloud cover so it might not be possible to see deforestation until months later when the weather clears but last month waste and her colleagues unveiled something new. Their system now collects images from an additional kind of satellite censor radar which sees right through clouds. Essentially the satellites are like sending radio waves to the earth and collecting. How they come back. The satellites operated by the european space agency and it delivers even sharper pictures than what global forest watch had been getting in so we can actually see these little patches that indicate where there's been no removal of a single tree at that site in central african republic in front of us on the computer. The map shows dark pink spots where trees disappeared just within the past few weeks. Anybody in the world can log in and see this. So look environmentalists or even big food companies that have pledged not to buy crops. Grown on deforested land can react more quickly. Dan charles npr news.
U.N. Climate Summit Sets Stage For New National Emissions Promises
"This message comes from NPR SPONSOR COMCAST BUSINESS GIG fueled network solutions that help businesses go beyond the expected to do the extraordinary Gary comcast business beyond fast learn more at comcast business dot com as we've been hearing this morning. World leaders are meeting in New York. Today they are holding a special United Nations Climate Change Summit Twenty twenty as the deadline for countries to make bigger bolder promises to reduce greenhouse gas emissions but but many of the world's biggest economies are struggling to keep up with their previous promises. NPR's Rebecca Hersher has this carbon report card. Let's start with a couple. Oh basic climate science facts that world leaders are staring down today faction number one. The average temperature on our planet has already increased about one degree Celsius Celsius since Pre Industrial Times co eleven studies global emissions at the World Resources Institute think tank you've seen the Arctic hitting record highs and a scorching watching summer in Europe and the United States leaving hundreds dead and July was the warmest month on record ever globally and this is just one degree Celsius warming storms are getting more frequent and severe sea levels are rising and heat waves and droughts are getting longer which brings us to fax number two if the earth gets one and a half degrees degrees Celsius hotter. All of those things get significantly worse. Many animals go extinct. Many people will be forced to move which is why leaders from nearly two hundred hundred nations are meeting in New York because fact number three right now. The world is on track for about three degrees of warming by the end of the century so yeah it's not good. Angel Shoe is a researcher at Yale and US College in Singapore. I spoke to her via skype and fortunately national governments are really a falling behind when it comes to delivering the ambition and the emissions cuts that we really need to avoid dangerous climate change national governments including the US the second largest greenhouse house gasometer in the world behind China the US has promised to cut greenhouse gas emissions significantly by two thousand twenty five the good news overall carbon emissions. It's have gone down in the last decade mostly because companies stopped burning coal but under the trump administration that trend has slowed what ended up happening in two thousand eighteen gene was a spike in emissions from the United States and that also occurred in China's well so that's what's really worrisome but shoo says those are kind of silver lining the Chinese government government has been investing a lot in renewable energy like solar and hydro power and Electric Public Transit and appears to be planning more and because it's not a democracy the leaders who make climate promises can't be voted out of office and what's really encouraging about China's when the leadership is committed to something they can really follow through India. Yeah has also signalled it might be getting ready to promise big emissions cuts and it's on track to achieve its current emissions promises. Levin says many countries recognize. There's is a lot to gain from burning less coal gas cutting down fewer trees clean water and clean air and more efficient food production there such such tremendous benefits that can be born by climate action which brings us back to the United States. The federal government is currently trying to roll back policies that would control greenhouse gas emissions things like limits on emissions from power plants and oilfields and cars meanwhile hundreds of state and local governments are doing the opposite visit passing local regulations making local emissions promises all of which puts the US delegation at today's meeting in an awkward position and raises the a question if the U._S. is no longer leading international climate action who will Rebecca Hersher N._p._R. News.
President Trump, Climate Change And 1 Trillion Trees
"We're going to talk now about one project where the US got on board. It's an initiative to plant a trillion trees over the next decade. Here's what trump said. At Davos we're committed to conserving serving the majesty of God's creation and the natural beauty of our world today I'm pleased to announce the United States will join one trillion trees initiative to talk about whether the one trillion trees initiative is realistic. And what its impact could be Janet wrong nothin of the World Resources Institute joins joins US now. Welcome thank you just to start with. The most basic science remind people why planting trees is helpful for slowing climate. Change at all so Trees when they grow they actually absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and store in the tree. Parts above and underground so planting a trillion trees is Is a catchy alliterative phrase. Where did the initiative come from and so it actually follows on the suite of several other trillion Tree initiatives. But the idea that you know we can address the climate problem food. large-scale reforestation this particular initiative. At Davos was put forward award by Mark Benny off. Who is this billionaire? Founder of salesforce. Tell us about the argument. He's making here. I think you know if you think about lodge ambitious issues. Initiatives are launched. We've had fires in Australia and Indonesia and Brazil trees have been under siege. People are worried about climate change. This is a good time to you. Know Galvanize attention around something that's been around for a while. There's a question of whether one could plausibly plant a trillion million trees in a decade but setting that aside for a moment if we imagined that tomorrow a trillion new trees were on the earth. What kind of impact with that actually make it depends and this is the critical question? It's how do we do this. And how do we actually connect these trees and the plan planting schemes to local interests. If if there is not local support for these we may plant the trees and when we go back there go So what would a successful program look like One such as the initiatives are ah kind of out in there now where you've got countries the something called the a. f. R. One hundred percent African countries to commit to restore hundred million hectares of land. Land there already interested in doing this for a variety of reasons like water and food security so there's a demand for that. How do you actually link this supply of trees to where there's a strong on existing demand do you think the infrastructure exists to make a trillion trees a plausible reality? Well a question about how how much land that would take. But there's certainly enough existing initiatives already out there that are trying to do this through the Lens of restoration. That could be supported. Deported by this sort of high scale effort on many climate initiatives you have president trump opposing the policy and the teenage climate activist discredit tune Berg. Pushing for this is actually the opposite tune. Berg said at Davos that this is nowhere near enough of what is needed. Is She right. Yes so let let me just say it's a good thing that president trump support season. Who wouldn't be for planting trees if this is the note if this is the only action on climate change is nowhere near near enough? Do you think that this is just a talking point or do you sense that there actually is enough of a plan to execute something this ambitious versus yes. I think the initiatives being quite four fry in noting that actually they do want to interlock with the myriad of our existing initiatives are out there and they want to do it effectively. I should point out the the you know the first order of questions. Let's protect the existing force and not just be planting trees. We need to do both Janet wrong. It often is vice president for science and research at the World Resources Institute. Thanks for coming in today my pleasure.
Biden Says His Climate Plan Means Jobs. Some Union Members Are Skeptical
"President biden says his two trillion dollar infrastructure plan will create good paying union jobs but his party's traditional allies. Fear that they will be left behind in a shift to clean energy. Read frazier of the allegheny front spoke with members of one of the country's oldest unions. Sean steffi is the business agent at boilermakers local one fifty four in pittsburgh inside the unions. Training shop members are practicing their welding skills. In curtained-off boots they're prepping for a job repairing a coal fired. Power plant nate go up way up in boiler format weld an and come back down so you know there's a lot of heights involved. Union builds and maintains coal nuclear natural gas power plants. it's highly skilled. work on. The job can pay well six figures it steffi worries union has a lot to lose if the country moves quickly to renewables if he were to go to work in the solar industry for example. Steffi says he'd be starting over risk losing some of his pension and other benefits to throw everything away to go over here and maybe started election on. My skill set isn't an electric. I don't know nothing about electrical too well. To build power plants transitions are inherently tricky and complicated and they always created winners and losers. Dave sri saw is a clean energy analyst with the nonprofit world resources institute she says president biden's plan to ramp up clean. Energy could create jobs in fields like electrical work and utilities. But she says they won't necessarily lineup for those who currently work and fossil fuels. There's always going to be that mismatch of geography is going to be mismatch of skills. There's also going to be mismatch of timing man of few workers. The biden administration has pledged to help with what some call adjust transition. It could mean tax breaks and grants to diversify the economies of fossil fuel dependence states. But it's unclear how effective these programs would be even if fossil-fuel workers can find work in renewables. Those jobs don't often pay as much. Many are with small or new. Companies and their workers aren't unionized. And after their bill solar and wind farms don't need as many workers. Rick bloomingdale is with the pennsylvania. Afl cio. it's nothing like maintain a coal fired. Our plant you need a lotta men and women to maintain a coal fired power plant. You don't need so many to maintain of solar farm. Bloomingdale is still in favor of biden's infrastructure plans but once a long lead time to transition the country to clean energy renewables currently provide about twenty percent of us electricity steffi. The local boilermaker business agent doesn't think renewables will replace fossil fuels anytime soon. Technology comes in future. Yes probably don't have a job. But right now i just don't see that happening. It's unclear what this all mean for young boilermakers like kill of marschall. He's twenty nine and joined the union to follow in the footsteps of his father. Being in the trade is given him a sense of purpose he says and skills he can always use no matter what happens to industry what i love about the trade. I'm learning to skew. That i can take wherever i go and learn forever. Biden's plan does have one thing. Fossil fuel unions have lobbied hard for it would invest more in carbon capture which would keep colin gas plants running without the carbon footprint. Some green groups oppose such spending but it could win over some reluctant union members and keep them working longer for npr news. I'm reid frazier in pittsburgh. This message comes from. Npr sponsor ford a large chandelier dangles directly above a stationary all electric mustang mach e. It's held aloft by an intricate police system. Attached to the rear of the vehicle visit four dot com for a gravity defying display of torque.
Presenting: The Deep Decarbonization Draft
"Hey there energy gang listeners. Here we are thick in the holidays. And if you're winding down looking for something to help fill the time will working your brain. I've got some extra listening for you in this episode. We're featuring our second annual deep decarbonisation draft it's like fantasy sports for energy nerds. It's one of the most popular segments of the year on another podcast. I produced for Greek media. It's called the interchange. This particular draft is modeled after fantasy sports. It's inspired many listeners. To launch their own drafts and I hope it provides you with some similar inspiration as you think about the challenges and opportunities of decarbonisation as we head into the twenty twenties or at least some entertainment to close out the year for you again. This is from the interchange. It's a show I co host was Shale Khan and while listening to this episode. You can pick up your phone and subscribe right now anywhere. You get your podcasts. We deep dive interviews. We often game if I our topic similar to what you're hearing right now so if you don't listen I really think you'll like it. Enjoy this episode. Happy Holidays and go. Subscribe to the interchange and now here is our second deep decarbonisation draft. This is the interchange show about the future of energy. I'm Stephen Lacey in Boston. Welcome she'll con is out Berkeley California. He's my co host. He's my friend today my competitor because this week it is the second installment of the decarbonisation draft our fantasy sports event for energy and climate nerds back by popular demand. The premise Ramos is simple. Shalin I choose our teams of decarbonisation technologies and methods and we pit them against each other to determine who is best at saving the planet planet. Who would have thought that our little game last year would have sparked so much inspiration? I know it's actually been really amazing to see. I've heard a bunch of different folks who've service spun runoff their own versions of the decarbonisation draft. The best one was there was an actual live game. Show version of the decarbonisation draft draft taped in Norway. Last year I got to see the video. It's all in Norwegian so I can't tell you anything about how it went but it looked pretty amazing and and I know Matt Chester. WHO's an energy analyst? Put together his own fantasy sports league a little bit different than what we're doing. Were you on a team on that one on shale. I'd rather not lost right. Well we weren't. We weren't in last place. If that's how you define losing you have so much confidence going into this. Your record is is not as clean as it might seem. Listen Stephen. That's different sport. We I was playing baseball. This is basketball My record in this sport the deep decarbonisation draft on this podcast is spotless. Well you folks out there on twitter are chosen. You chose jail by a wide margin. But I'm going to correct that. This is my chance to regain my credibility and so without further ado the twenty nineteen nineteen deep decarbonisation draft Stephen Shining good even and sales hoping to go for two zero lead sea witch swannee. Bees knows best. How did carbon is this Said Dry d three. The climate shocks ups. There's games object to see from the draw down project then we'll see who can reduce the planet's level of they can't say my God in that theme song was written by Matt Farley Matt as a superstar songwriter thanks Matt. I'm realizing now that I gave them the wrong directions. He mentioned that we're choosing using nine members of our decarbonisation teams in that song. In fact we're choosing seven and so that brings me to the rules. Let's bring in producer Daniel Waldorf to read off how this year's decarbonisation draft is GonNa go. So I've sent both of you. List of eighty solutions across seven different sectors Put together by by this research. Organization called project draw down. And there's a score their scores tied to each of those solutions both the total co two reductions and the total savings of of each solution. So I've stripped off the scores so all you can hear the solutions. You're each going to choose seven solutions to build out your team. But I both of you shall Stephen Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that you have not looked the scores. I do I do yes. I this is a handy list. You sent very comprehensive and I have A done no peeking of the numbers behind these solutions. Not only that by the way but I was doing doing a little bit of research at a time and there's a couple of these topics that if you google them the first link that comes up is the project drawdown no link with the scores so I had to be very careful all to shield my eyes. I just want you to know how diligent I was in not reading the scores. Both both men of upsetting character. So then what happens next so at the end of the first round you are each allowed to steal one pick from the other person if you choose. I like that once. The scores are locked in. I'm going to tally up. The Co Co two reductions in the total savings and. We'll have a winner. Okay can I ask if you clarifying questions short. Okay so I won We are measured. The winner is based on the total. Co Two reduced right not dollar savings but lake who reduces the most co two with our team. And I also think that we're going to be doing both all right. We're going to have a winner for each whoa. WHOA WHOA WHOA? That is not how. I've developed my draft strategy. I'm interested in total savings but we're here to save the planet. Co Two reductions at least should take should trump the other winner. We can't have two winners for example right if one of us a wins on savings and one of US wins on Co two reductions. That's unacceptable hedge my bets here man. You know all right agreed we all agree you were the primary goal is to Reduce Co.. Go to second question for you If we steal a pick from the other person do we have to give up one of our own picks. Yes you definitely have to give up a pick so that you each have the same number. So if you're confident in your list then you may you may not steal something But if you know you have something you need to swap out than than you can steal something I I like this I like this okay. Final question from me. So last year I was my draft strategy revolved around trying to come up with a like sort of multi sectorial Taurel solution. That was comprehensive for combating climate. Change but here. All we're trying to do is get the most total co to reduce. So if I skip an entire sector. That's fine right. I just as long as I get the largest gas reduction I possibly can. Yes you can you can Berkshire your solutions in a sector. You can skip a sector if you want as long as you are shooting for the most seriously reduced Stephen. Can I ask you a question. So I found this exercise of of thinking about this strategy way harder than I last year when we were. Yeah so last year for anybody who hasn't listened we. We basically invented the the sectors out of thin air the technologies thin air. We didn't base it off of a list like we are this time with an actual measurement I found this one way harder did was it the same for you. I had the exact opposite reaction. It was so hard to create my own list last time and to determine which sectors I was going to go after in this case having a list in front of me was a lot easier now. There are a lot of solutions that are similar to one another or that feed into one another in so separating eating those was a little bit difficult for me And then there are some. I had no idea. Like what the cost impact or co two reduction would be but having a list made it a lot easier for me. I was like trying to imagine the methodology that I would use estimates to reduction from every single sector and so it was just like doing doing mental gymnastics trying to figure out. Well let's see. How would they have gone about estimating this and what would that have resulted in terms of total co two? We should also note that the the way that these scores work I understand. It is that they're supposed to be total potential. Co Two reduction from doing this at scale right right not The CO two reduction. We expect in a business as usual case from that technology or sector. Yes that's right and I guess that brings me to the final word on where this list comes from. It came from project. Draw down as Daniel said We chose it because it is this a research organization. That's getting a lot of traction action. They they bring together. Some of the most high-profile climate communicators advocates Scientists and they advocate for solutions for a positive outlook on decarbonisation and they initially came from this book. Written by Paul Hawkin The famous Environmentalists and environmental capitalist. Who wrote this book called project? Draw down so they come from this book written a few years ago and this organization that was founded around this idea and the Nice thing is that so project drawdown created this list of like eighty climate solutions define them estimated their potential. Co Two savings but also the methodologies entirely transparent so though I haven't haven't looked the methodology to be clear for the individual sectors of at least we will have an opportunity to see how we feel about them afterwards. Well let's let's kick it off. I how are we going to choose. Who Goes I? I have a quarter here. So you all pick heads and tails WHO's GonNa pick two. She'll be flip record to see who gets. That's also this is all happening on. I just WANNA play now. We're on a podcast. We can't see each other when you had me raise my right hand. You don't know if I raised my right hand and I don't know if I trust you with this I trust I trust you. I don't know man I have some trust you. I don't know referee questions here. All all right Steven you can. You can pick heads or tails all right. I'm going with tales okay. There we go in the confines of my tiny closet. It's tails we here. We go so. This is a big list over eighty solutions and I thought about. How am I gonNA start to Buckeyes? This stuff and my first inclination was to really start with electricity because I know that sector well and and you know there are some really important solutions. 'EM electricity but transportation is rapidly becoming the biggest biggest single source of emissions here in the United States and it is a becoming a bigger share of emissions around the world so I had to pick a very important piece of the transportation sector and that is shipping. Ninety percent of our global trade depends on ships and shipping is clearly an important Climate Solution Solution. I need on my team. In fact. According to a recent study from the European Parliament shipping worldwide could be responsible for seventeen percent of global double. Co Two emissions in twenty fifty if left unregulated and. I just can't imagine a team without doing something about the Global Shipping Ping Industry. So that's my first choice. Wow shipping with the first pick that That is unexpected. I'm feeling very good about this draft but can I ask how I was that. That's a great pick. Okay well wait. Let me ask you this So what are the things about these project down the some of these. Some of these solutions it says is a sector with it but there are actually like Describing a particular change in that sector. So what is it. They're talking about with shipping. While their definition is the use of technologies to to make maritime shipping less fuel intensive of this solution replaces conventional maritime shipping practices and Technologies. So what does that actually actually. Meanwhile it's pretty broad You could it's all about like scheduling and routes how to optimize routes to reduce fuel consumption. Shen How to design ships so that they're using less like bunker fuel or diesel so like you literally have More more efficient engines You can build container ships that have higher capacity so you can carry more goods on a single single journey and potentially cut emissions that way. There are all sorts of ways to use kites so that The engine isn't doing as much work. There's a ton of a different technological and operational solutions and this encompasses all of those all right with the first pick in the two thousand nineteen decarbonisation drafts and takes tights for shipping. Okay all right my yeah look. Here's the thing Stephen. If Lebron James is sitting there waiting to be picked and you decide to take on Brady Tom Brady. Yeah okay. Let's see if our audience thinks that shipping kites are Tom Brady I you personally start with the obvious. First Round draft pick Future Hall of Famer solar farms or utility scale solar but they define. It is a sore farms. It's I will note the same first round draft pick that I made last year but I stand by it. It is a there's no deep decarbonisation future without it so I take utility scale solar boring just so plain vanilla. I mean how obvious you know. Yeah I've sometimes obvious is good but all right yeah. Tom Brady was one of the last draft picks. And you know he was. He was benched in favor of one of the best quarterbacks in history and he came out of nowhere and became. Absolutely one of the quintessential best athletes in history across any sport. You just happened happen to pick the easy flashy technology that you know is certainly going to be important. But I'm going for the dark horse my friend. All right whatever Whatever works for you Stephen? What's your what's your second? Pick okay. I've got another unconventional pick. This is a hard one because the solutions at least as we're deploying them now are not working very very well but in theory if we can get it right. This is one of the most important things for reducing. Co Two in stemming global temperature rise and that is Saving tropical forests. According to the World Resources Institute if tropical deforestation were a country. It would be the third highest committer of Co two behind the US and China and tropical tree. Cover loss is now causing more missions. Every year than eighty-five million cars cars would over their entire lifetime. So if you can figure out ways to properly manage these forests make sure they don't cut down although these these Eight percents of global missions come from tree cover loss they could actually provide twenty three percent of the cost. Effective climate mitigation needed before twenty thirty. So it's a really good short term solution. According to the World Resources Institute. You just can't have a technology fix you need some kind of ecological fix and tropical forest. Management is read at the top of the list. Yeah I would make fun of that one but actually I think that was a good pick. Doc I I you know this is an area. I haven't spent a lot of time in historically but I was doing a little bit of research and it's true tropical force deforestation is Huge huge judge source of emissions reduction loss. So Kudos I respect that. Pick thank you sir. Okay what's your pick. This is the number two. Yeah well I'M GONNA stay boring for the first few boring because they are obviously so important for decarbonisation And so I will give you my first. I transport pick which is obviously electric vehicles. There's again just no future decarbonisation scenario where we don't electrify a good chunk of passenger transportation minimum so I pick. Ev's do passenger vehicles really make up a huge share of transportation emissions. That seems like a week choice when you're looking at at the transportation sector. They do make a huge share of transportation emissions. We sort of forget it. Because we sort of feel like we have the solution in hand we just can electrify get your fight but they make up a significant portion. It's like the short distance. Light Road Transport I think alone is like like eleven percent of global emissions and then there's more if you add on other parts of transportation so I mean it doesn't solve the entire problem. I shipping for example. But I think these are a huge lever. Okay well then that brings me to my other pick and if you're going to be choosing electrified passenger vehicles I've gotTA gotta go with electrified trucks. You have to solve the trucking industry as well Heavy duty trucks make up about about a quarter of all carbon emissions from the transportation sector globally so also a very high share of that sector and Green also a very high share of that sector so I feel confident in this one two punch of shipping and and trucking. I feel like I'm taking a huge chunk out of the greenhouse gas emissions emit. I feel like I'm taking a huge chunk out of the greenhouse gas emissions from transportation sector actor. You're focused on cars. Yeah which have use your focus on cars which yeah as you've proven do play a significant role but shipping and and trucking. Those are some heavy duty solutions. Wait so do you mean just electric trucks or reduction of emissions in trucking in general. Because I read that one and on the project drop down list and it looked like it was broader wasn't just electric occasion. Yes that's right Thanks for making me clarify. I was focused on electric vacation. Because that's what you were focused on with passenger vehicles but it includes all kinds of methods for improving the efficiency of engines improving the way you driving trucks around and also electrification. Okay so onto my third pick All right I'M GONNA go back into this land news category you did avoid tropical deforestation I'M GONNA go in the opposite direction here and say hey four station which is plant some goddamn trees the thing about plant trees. It's a real. It's a real thing though. I was actually reading some research over the weekend suggested that with available trialist land Not including existing farmland. There's just a ton of land week theoretically could use To put trees on there's one point seven billion hectares of treeless land where you could put trees naturally grow and that would reduce something like two thirds of all current emissions From human activities. So not to say we're going to do it but if you're looking for big potential we could plant an enormous this number of trees. Yeah this is an important solution. But so many companies use this as a crutch and rather than reduce their point source emissions and change their supply chains or their products. They go and plant a bunch of trees and then call themselves carbon-neutral and I really hate this solution for that reason. Not because it's not important. But because it's misused misused or not right I do think it's a real if sustained and then you don't cut down the trees later it is. It's a big opportunity to to suck up a bunch of emissions. So I mean you know things can both be good and potentially riper greenwashing at the same time. We're GONNA take a quick break. We have four more picks coming up but first let's talk about our sponsors that are deploying solutions for decarbonisation right. Now we're sponsored by Schneider. Electric Schneider is at the forefront of decarbonisation If we had a draft pick and company Schneider would be at the top of the list. It helps companies communities governments embrace micro grids to enable a more reliable resilient and sustainable future across North America Schneider Electric. Eric has designed and built more than three hundred Michael Grid. Projects to learn. More about their micro grid is a service funding model tap that link right there in the show notes we are also brought to you by. PG Any utility that is pushing hard into fleet electrification PG. Any is helping companies organizations municipalities. Take their cars and trucks electric in mass numbers. I and it has a resource to start the process. They have a free guide book on Fleet Electrification Infrastructure Go to P. G. E. DOT com slash. GTM E to download that guidebook no strings attached or forms to fill that PG DOT COM SLASH GTM. Alright all right. y'All former former pick. So who's who goes. Do I go is this is this me now. Yep you're up we could ask you question. Thus far in our top shirts have had i. I picked anything on your list. No yeah no nor have you picked anything on mine. Yeah interesting which is so interesting. I you know I before we started recording. You mentioned you had like twenty solutions tonight. Literally seven here and then if you pick something on my list I'm just GONNA scramble. I have like a list in my head of substitute technologies Zor methods but I'm really banking on the fact that you're not GonNa pick anything that I have yet. It's a bummer. Hopefully and I will now. Okay go ahead okay well I. I've have tackled too important solutions transportation. I've got an ecological solution. We gotta go for the built environment. Buildings are responsible for thirty percent of global greenhouse gas emissions missions Emissions from buildings are probably going to double by twenty fifty so I have to pick net zero buildings. You really can't do much. Climate change without going deep on emissions reductions in buildings. Yeah you know I. I was thinking about that one. I think that's probably a pretty good pick You know in some ways it feels to me like if we can decarbonised electricity. You then that zero buildings they pick up the pieces on like heating heating space heating. But I don't know that's alright it's an IRA pick. I think yeah. Okay thank you the reason why I like. This is because it encompasses a bunch of different technology so the way they define it. They say new buildings that utilize high efficiency building solutions and onsite renewable energy systems to consume zero utility scale sources that produce net zero carbon emissions on an annual basis So you could. I mean that could I mean any kind of technology heat pumps are onsite solar or building insulation or Building controls you name it There are a lot of other building technologies allergies. They mentioned but I just had to go net zero buildings because it was all encompassing. Yep All right I get it I get it Okay so for my fourth pick I'M GONNA make a pick. That was one of the ones where when I was looking over the list. My first thought was like And so I did a little bit of research. And hence have discovered that the process of educating girls which is one of the picks available in the project drawdown on list Actually has really enormous emissions reduction potential. So just to explain it. I mean it's actually relatively straightforward right higher elizabeth levels of education lead to a variety of things But including a better family planning and thus less population growth. There's a ton of evidence of this sort of all over the place There was some research by the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Vienna. That did this modeling of the impacts of fertility on population growth and basically like they. They're the very ability and potential population. That will see by. Mid Century or the next century is is enormous they found in a high versus low population growth scenario that we could have two billion is at two billion persons swing by twenty forty five and a five five billion person swing by twenty one hundred. So if you're looking for I'm not one of these like we need to stop population growth people all but as a lever to reduce climate change Actually educating girls especially in the developing world in a way that allows them to succeed in society and then will sort of naturally reduced population growth. I think actually probably has a pretty big impact. Yeah to give listeners. A Peek behind the curtain. Didn't we had an anonymous version of this list for a little while and we looked at the three solutions like educating girls family planning and women smallholders and we said okay. How do we value those? Those are clearly important solutions but we sort of understand these like technological solutions more and I think the two of US I said. How do we wrap our heads around the emissions reductions? That seems like a harder one to calculate in it. Sounds like you did some research and found that it was like extremely important so the research convinced you yeah it's like avoided it's avoided emissions basically it was not it's not direct emissions reduction it's avoided waited emissions but it's it's potentially a huge amount devoid of avoid admissions. Yes super important pick and that brings me to my fifth pick which is very much related family planning now. We've had this long history in the environmental movement talking about population control. It is tinged with racism. Sexism and classism. It is a very fraught conversation but the way that they have framed family planning to a slow population relation growth in a very positive way. I think makes this very important solution And in fact there's this study from the National Academy of the Sciences is that showed Through better family planning and slowing population growth. We can provide between sixteen and twenty nine percent of the emissions reductions necessary by twenty fifty to keep global temperatures below two degrees Celsius so extremely important solution and I I I also had to put this one on the table. I want to just acknowledge that. We're a couple of dudes talking about this stuff. So let's let's let's posit that we don't have all the we're we're not as close to this could be. We don't have all the information but it does clearly seem like at least from my research. Sounds from years as well that this is. This is a big because some unexplored these sort of these areas together opportunity to avoid significant additional missions Okay my fifth pick so here I feel like I need a solution for food agriculture. I know I do. It's also the area that I am least expert in so this one's a bit of a struggle we'll go from me but My pick is conservation agriculture which is defined by project drawdown as an annual crop production system to provide bio sequestration via crop rotation cover cropping reduced. Tillage I think there's a it's a fairly significant amount of emissions and that comes from agricultural practices. You know you think about stuff. Like cow burps and methane but a lot of it is also just in the soil. And so I I fury here. Is that a better crop. Production system that sequester carbon better will have a broad enough impact because it's applicable will in so many places all over the world that it'll add up to a lot. I can you quantify I literally nothing about this. This is actually one of the solutions that I didn't dig into so I don't have an exact number for you but Globally agriculture forestry and land uses about a quarter of greenhouse gas emissions and within agriculture or culture The amount that is held up in agricultural soils is about fifty one percent with more than methane. which is the cow burp stuff? So I think on its own it adds up to quite a lot Interesting choice okay. Pick number six for me if you're taking something natural like conservation agriculture. I'm GonNa take something synthesized like bioplastics. So there's this study from the journal Client Nature Climate Change this year that showed emissions from plastics production and disposal could amount to seventeen eighteen percent of our global carbon budget by two thousand fifty. So if we WANNA keep temperatures from rising more than one point five degrees Celsius we have to do something about plastics and of course we know that plastics come from petroleum products. And so there there have to be cost effective solutions for Taking petroleum out of the equation recycling plastics more effectively. Because without that solution solution we are probably going to go over our carbon budget. Yeah I thought about BIOPLASTICS TO A. There's somebody told me the other day. This has been bouncing around in my head ever since then. The Plastic Aston is the next meet in the sense. That like. We're in this cultural moment right now where it's It's sort of cool to eat fake meat and reduce your meat consumption because people have realized that meat is a big contributor to climate change and that sort of the next wave of that is gonNA come via plastic which will create a demand for not not only plastic alternatives but also stuff like bioplastics. So I think that's interesting. I don't know how big how much that moves the needle on global greenhouse gas emissions. But I I do think it's important. Yeah I mean the question is where does the solution come from. Is it through better disposal and recycling or is it through through the use of biomass feedstock for creating bioplastics and the problem with just relying on biomass feedstocks is that it depends pens on. You know how you're growing and cultivating those crops where you're growing them and I think he relying on biomass for large materials. Production is potentially dangerous solution. So it really depends on where that biomass is coming from. What kind of what you're planting and how you're I'm doing it with that? Said I think in a best case scenario you have to do something about plastics and bioplastics are important piece of that. All right my sixth pick is back into my sweet spot which is great flexibility and so the way they defined grid flexibility is pretty broad which is one of the reasons I thought this pick made sense. It's everything from system. Operation Markets Load Flexibility Flexible generation flexible networks and energy storage. And I guess my thinking here is that I don't know how this is one of the ones where I went down my own rabbit hole of how it I quantify this so I don't know how they did but my thinking thinking would be electricity remains one of if not the largest sources of greenhouse gas emissions in the world. And we're going to add a bunch of renewables to it to try to decarbonised denies it but renewables in the absence of grit flexibility. Really don't get that far like without any meaningful editions of good flexibility. You start to top out at like you know. Twenty thirty percent solar or wind. Maybe a little bit more combined so to go from that to a one hundred percent or eighty percent or something like that is reliant on a lot of good flexibility so if they're calculating it the way that I think I would then the totality of good flexibility is the enabler that lets you get from a low low penetration of zero carbon to very high penetration zero carbon and thus should be a big impact. Yeah this is one that feels it's like similar to to Net zero buildings encompasses so much and it makes it like an both an attractive solution and one. That's it's hard to wrap my head around but I will say I think it's a good pick. I just wonder in terms of categorization how it squares up with some of these more like specific doc technological solutions he feels like a like a squishy. squishy one to me. Yeah I agree. It's all it totally dependent on the methodology. So I'm I'm banking thinking on having having estimated correctly how project drawdown would come up with a number here. Can I tell you something about the scores right now. I think it's pretty. I think it's pretty interesting. Influence my pick. Maybe it should. I don't know it. It is like within it within single digits within low single digits in terms of the total the tons yes in terms of the tons. And you've both picked so so far you well all right. I'll save that for later. I'll save it for later. Okay the suspect now. My my stomach is up in my throw. I'm so nervous about this last pick and I'm switching. I'm I'M GONNA go. I'm I'm I had something here on my list but I just made a last minute decision to switch and I'm going to pull something out that you banged on last draft shale and that is tele presence telework replacing flying for business meetings with Tele. Hello presence technologies so replaces all kinds of travel in the transportation sector for business. And I just feel like rather than I was GONNA pick high speed rail ale or mass transit but I just feel like this this encompasses all of those potential solutions. It's a low cost solution that can offer a big co two bang for the investment. So I'M GONNA I'M GONNA go straight for Tele presence. That's funny because I remember you making funny last year since I did the idea I think actually I picked augmented reality which is like a off shoot a tele presence but look I I respect the pick especially because I came the first. Okay tell it so. This is basically going to be. This is gonNA come down to a contest between Tele presence and my final pick which I think I have to go with mass transit and the whole the So excited this is a great matchup. No I know it really is and I but the theory here is like my assumptions that they're baking in to their calculations the fact that the entire world is pretty fast so transit around and in and around cities is going to be a huge portion of the total amount of transit and so if you build up mass transit which is significantly lower co two emissions profile Then you you should have a pretty big impact. I thought I was torn between mass transit and high speed rail because as they define mass transit. It's largely around cities in high speed. Rail Rayle is a better solution for like replacing trips and airplanes. But I just figured you know overall we're going to have so many people traveling around cities that mass transit's got to be the one. That's a really interesting last set of picks because they're in similar sectors there to solutions to the same problem. I will be really interested to see if that separates us in any way to kill. I note some things that we didn't pick that like some areas okay so we didn't pick really much around around food. I mean I picked one agriculture but for example they had a plant rich diet. We could have picked. We didn't pick much in industrial emissions. I was thinking about picking alternatives. Cement they actually didn't have anything for Iron and steel production but I think should've Those are the things we picked. There's a bunch. I feel. Pangs of off anxiety about sectors that we missed out on but anyway you you have to live with what she picked unless You want to steal which is your last Option you can steal if you want to but then you have to give up one of the picks that you have. And so I let me just recap what each of you have pick so far. So Stephen In order of your picks you picked Shipping tropical forests trucks Fox net zero buildings family planning bioplastics and Tele presence feel good about that and shale your picks were electric vehicles solar farms eight Forestation Educating Girls Conservation Agriculture Grid Flexibility and mass transit. Feel good about that. I do I feel I feel pretty good about it though. I do have a bit of anxiety still okay. Will you have one more chance you because you you stephen picked I You get to steal I if you want to It's tough I do on a steal but I don't don't WanNa give anything up on my team. Oh well I regret it. I yeah all right. I'm GonNa make a steal I will take. I'm I'm gonNA steal tropical forests because they think that was a good pick and I will give Stephen Mass transit so angry I could regret at that. Mass Transit's really important. Well so so then I'm This is an easy one for me. I'M GONNA give up trucking and take grid flexibility. Oh yeah trucking was a bad pick. You shouldn't have made it in the first place. It would've been an interesting strategy for you to make one bad pick knowing you're going to get get rid of it at the end and stick me with it. I don't make bag picks that I feel like I didn't this stealing round. I feel like I did not come out on top. I think that picking Trou- taking my tropical forests I. I was really banking on that one. I think tropical forest management is is one of the Mo the most important dark horses but I'm very happy with your grid flexibility. So you now have my trucking. I have your good flexibility. I know have your mass transit in you now have my tropical forest management. So what comes next. I where where. Where do we go from here? Daniel all right. I am going to tally up your scores while. Oh you all wait with bated breath and and let's bring in a little ditty from Matt Farley. Just sit side everybody. Daniel is tally up the scores. In a short your way we're GonNa know who the winner the decarbonisation okay. We're back Daniel. What do you have all right? So we have a winner that has won by more than a factor of to what wait so we were that close and then something in the last round plus the steals. Yeah Yeah who is it no so. The winner is The returning champion Schenn's yes because of tropical forestation because of tropical station AH tropical forests was number five. It was sixty one point. Two three Gigi tons of carbon dioxide huge sixty do one. Okay so so I feel good that I at least picked it and I mean it's great to be like picnic. Great draft pick. But if you traded away in the first season on you know a lot of credit for it So Steven you had Seventy two point two one Gigi tons an shale had two hundred and two how. Oh Wow I'm kind of like demoralized. Now how can I lose so badly and especially after it was so close. Yeah wow those those oh steals really do change the game. Apparently I thought your steel was a good one though. Did Not get a lot out of the great flexibility. For trucks. Thing grid flexibility was was rated as an NA. What's in the project drawdown? So they they. It was so variable that they didn't put put a figure on it. So maybe that's that's probably what so. I stole grid flexibility. I guess advance myself more that what happened. ooh That's a bit of a I feel I feel bad for that. It's okay I just know that if we hadn't done the steals and I probably would have won John Because you had a terrible pick and I had a second wait. Let me ask you this Daniel before the steals who would have won before the steals show you what also what but it was. Yeah it was like a hundred forty giga tons. One hundred thirty seven and right before that it was a hundred and thirty one hundred thirty four. It was really close. Oh man and All right so tell us more. So Okay so overall I won on an tons. What about Savings dollar savings shale. You also won on dollar savings you one by chief. What does that twenty? You saved twenty trillion dollars. Stephen saved four trillion dollars. But this is also because so so also before the steals you both had picked a solution that had an NA so so steven you had picked net zero buildings and that had an a Eh on in in saving is not available. By the way not available they didn't raid yeah And but afterwards yeah you you were left to solutions. That had a had zeroes bioplastics. Good Flexibility I choose to to think that just means it's so valuable the the score can't possibly fit on that spreadsheet so they just need letters. Yeah that feels like a little bit. I'm going to. I'm going to attach a small asterisk to this win because I feel bad for you you that those are. Na's I think if you try to quantify them they would both be pretty big all right. So what was the winning overall pick in the worst overall pick besides the in ace the best pick was tropical forests. Good steal yeah number five And then right after that number six six was educating girls. Wow I'm surprised that educating girls was higher than family planning family planning was number seven. What are the top four picks? Like what are we missing here. Talk Hop four picks. The top four picks are something that neither of you got refrigerant management. Oh with eighty nine point seven four four Giga Tom. What oh man? I got to do some research on that. And the next up after that we had wind turbines onshore wind turbines oh come on they put window Dover Solar. That's all right yeah. Solar is down at Number eight right after family play. I don't know about this but find some Lebron James Pick you got there whatever you heal bloom later in his career and the fourth Ranked one that you goal. Missed is plant rich diet. I I thought about that one. I picked the conservation agriculture instead of that one but I by that. Yeah definitely well. I'M GONNA go. They drowned my sorrows in an impossible burger from Burger King. And I'M GONNA go plant trees just to prove that forestation should be up at the top the list Daniel. Thanks for helping us out here. I wish you had better news for me but this was fun. Better luck next time all right again. That was an episode episode of the interchange. And you can go subscribe to that right now and get plenty of other deep dive interviews and analysis on the energy transition addition Enjoy the rest of your holidays and into the New Year here. We go got a lot to do in front of us and I hope that the listening listening here on the energy gang and the interchange provide some inspiration for you. I'm Stephen Lacey. Thanks so much for listening and supporting our shows will catch you in the New Year
March 12, 2019: Hour 1
"Hulo here now podcast listeners. It's Robin young with a favor to ask please go to here now dot org slash survey. All one word and tell us more about yourself. Our survey takes less than five minutes and your feedback will help us improve the podcast. So go to here now dot org slash survey. An answer a few questions that's here now dot org slash survey. Thank you from NPR and WBZ. You are I'm Peter Odell. I'm Robin young. It's here. And now the growing list of countries banning the Boeing seven thirty seven max eight from their airspace after that weekend crash in Ethiopia includes Germany Britain, Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, China and Indonesia one hundred and fifty seven people were killed on the flight from Addis Ababa to Nairobi Kenya. After a crashed shortly after takeoff just five months after the same model plane crashed in Indonesia a preliminary investigation that crash points to a system on the plane. That pilots did not know how to override. But US Federal Aviation officials are calling the seven thirty seven max, eight airworthy. Here's transportation secretary, Elaine Chao defending that decision last night, the FAA continuously assesses and overseas. The safety performance of, you know, the whole US commercial aircraft. If the FAA identifies an issue that affects safety, but department will take immediate and appropriate action. NPR's David Schaper has been reporting this story and David what's going on here? Witnesses say they saw what seemed like the the opium plane. You're struggling to keep the nose up. That's just anecdotal, and it might indicate the automatic system. But what what is happening does the FAA not see a potential pattern here? What are they saying? We'll yesterday says it just does not have any information yet that there is a pattern of any significant similarities between the two crashes that warrants grounding, these planes, these planes have been in service for quite a while phone thousands and thousands of times there's. Several dozen of them operating in the US and they've been operating completely safety. In a statement last night. The FAA says it has not been provided any data to draw any conclusions or take any actions. And it basically reaffirmed that this this plane is safe and airworthy and should continue to fly. Now that said the FAA did take some actions and has ordered Boeing to make some changes to that automated flight control system that the pilots have had trouble overriding, or one of the biggest problems, was pilots didn't even know it existed. So there have been some changes mandated by the FAA Boeing says it is making those changes rather quickly, and they still have fill full confidence. In fact, you know, pilots organizations are putting out statements. The pilots who fly these planes say they believe that they're still safe because they do have all the information. The latest information to make sure they're flying say we spoke to a pilot yesterday the same when we. Spoke to after the lion. Aircrash he said before that crash. He'd only had a fifty four minute training session on an ipad. He didn't others didn't even know there was this anti-stalking system that push the nose of the plane down if it went to high installed the problem is it was doing it. When the nose wasn't going to high and pilots couldn't override it. Is there a sense that maybe you know, pilots in the US where Boeing is based may know more about this than pilots internationally. Well, the certainly could be the case there are different standards for pilot rating and pilot training around the world. Although if you look at where commercial aviation stands today versus, you know, twenty thirty forty years ago, certainly everyone around the world has up their game and made air travel incredibly safe it, we we should point out. This is still the by far safest mode of transportation other than just, you know, sitting in your basement and not going anywhere. It's it's an incredibly safe way to travel, but. The US has what what many regard to be the safest aviation system in the world and requires a great deal more training than some other countries do and so there are questions about whether or not, you know, all of the pilots all around the world for all the airlines may have gotten all the information that they need to fly this point just a few seconds left. Yes, I you know, has so safe. And yet we're hearing anecdotally about people learning that they can learn on their ticket in the small print what kind of playing they're on, and this fears are there fears that this is going to impact the industry with cancellations. Certainly there are fears in many travelers are are concerned, you know, they know this by in their heads that. Oh, yeah. It's a very safe way of traveling. But everybody gets a little bit nervous when they stepped onto a plane, and the thing that that they see happening around the world has all these other countries taking these steps out of an abundance of caution and many are saying including a group called flyers rights dot org. Why doesn't the FAA just out of abundance of caution? Round the plane's just until we know more. And it's it seems like a lot of other countries are moving in that direction. NPR's David Schaper. Thank you. My pleasure. Well, the world will be using a lot more oil over the next few years in more of it than ever will come from the United States New report from the International Energy Agency says the US will overtake Russia as the world's number two oil exporter by twenty twenty three Saudi Arabia would still be atop the globalist but not by much for more. Now, we're joined by Jennifer lakey, she's blow director of energy for the world Resources Institute. Jennifer, welcome. Thank you so much less than a decade ago. The United States was exporting almost no oil. But now the country's on the verge of passing Saudi Arabia houses this happening. Well, we've invested in the United States infrastructure around Ohio and gas production over the course of the past few decades. So it's no surprise today that we're in a position to be. Be generating a lot of new gas for domestic use. What's different is that in two thousand sixteen we began exporting for the first time since the oil crisis of the nineteen seventies. There was something that President Obama gave the green-light to correct. And so late last year the United States became a net exporter of oil for the first time in decades. What's the significance of something? Like that. Well, there are a few things about this transition that are important to note, I global demand for oil is rising dramatically, and you look at countries like China or India that have an emerging middle class, and you see that they're going to be asking for cars and aviation flights as well as shipping for their products and plastics for consumables, those things Dr a global demand for oil and in the United States all the investments, we've made are allowing us to increasingly produce that oil domestically both for our own energy security purposes, but also to allow us to have the opportunity to export into the global market. The challenge we face is that in fact, this is going to drive increased emissions both of domestic emissions that have huge implications on health and welfare for our people as well as for the global climate and the US commitments to changing and transforming. Our energy system. Right. So tell me if this logic makes sense to you all of this new American oil is driving global prices down which in turn is boosting oil consumption around the world, which as you say is leading to a surge in carbon emissions what to do about that. Well, I think there are a few things that are important that we can to today. First of all, we know that a transition in an energy sector like electric city or like oil takes twenty years. So we need to begin now to be planning for a transition in our technology away from oil that means looking at electric vehicles looking at hydrogen as a fuel and beginning that process of putting in place incentives to get us to where we wanna be even with this surge of US exports this country still imports millions of barrels of oil every day from other countries. Why do we do that? Yeah. Well, there's a this is a global industry. See we have or finding capacity in the United States that is geared to being able to take in oil. If you can imagine those were important investments, we also export oil for refining outside like in Mexico. So there is a a swap as you will both with Canada, and with Mexico that's part of our oil energy ecosystem. Right. We import Mexican oil turn it into gasoline with US refineries, and then send it back to Mexico. That's right. Although the Mexicans themselves are looking at trying to increase their energy security and investing in refining capacity in the in. The new government is has made some commitments to do that to invest significant millions of dollars into their new refining capacity smell. We know that OPEC has cut production in recent years, partly because of the boom in US oil and shale extraction, and we can expect further drops in oil production in places like Iran and Venezuela over the next several years, what are the geopolitical implicate. Of the United States rising so fast on this list of global exporters. I think there are a couple of things, and and you know, you hit on the global politics around. Venezuela certainly have disrupted and create an opening for the US to to move into an oil market which Venezuela had been a big supplier to the geopolitics are complicated. It's complicated. Because we are essentially a going to meet this demand for oil one way or another. There will be a supply side strategy for any country. That's interested in meeting that demand. So we've got to work on the demand side of this and on the geopolitics of the climate agenda. We certainly can't turn to countries like India and China and say, a we expect you to reduce your oil consumption when US oil consumption continues to grow, and it's not just oil. It's also liquefied natural gas the United States becoming a big exporter of. Ellen g how does that fit into the picture? Yeah. A decade ago. We were imagining having to put in ports around the country as for importing Ellen g this shale gas revolution has allowed us to to switch that around. And now, we are exporting significant amounts. We're poised to be the third largest exporter of of Ellen g after Australia and cutter, and that is going to be an important part of the transition for many countries, China and particulars is going to be needing that Ellen g we export today to Mexico and South Korea and to China all three are important trading partners in the United States. Jennifer lakey is global director of energy for the world Resources Institute. Jennifer. Thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you. Native American activists are asking the department of Justice to investigate how a mentally ill. Indigenous man died in the custody of Omaha police in twenty seventeen one officer who fired his tasers Zachary bear heels twelve times was acquitted of second degree assault in December. And earlier this month charges were dropped against a second. Officer who punched bear heels repeatedly in the head. Here's activist Frank Lemere from the winnebago tribe responding to that I watched on a clip where they hit this handcuff thirteen times of God Justice is hard. But it's not that hard bear heels was unarmed, but he had freed one hand from his handcuffs police experts in both cases said that made the handcuffs potentially deadly weapon. Bare hills was twenty nine citizen of the Rosebud Sioux tribe of South Dakota and all. Also, part of the Kiowa tribe of Oklahoma. He had been diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Joining me now is Acharya sister. Adrienne. Hello. Pau Istrian, thanks for being here. Sorry to be speaking with you under these circumstances. But could you just tell us about the relationship that you had with Zachary technically as most people in your stand? It were first cousins, but in our tribe, the Kiowa tribe. We don't have a word for cousin all the cousins are looked at as siblings. And so culturally, we grew up as brother and sister. So you were close. Yes. Very close. We grew up together since we were babies, and can you tell us, you know, to the best of your understanding what happened on that night in June twenty seventeen that led to your brother's death. To my understanding he was brutally taste and beat to death by the very people who were supposed to be administering aid in crisis management to him. He was in the midst of a crisis and needed very badly for a professional to intervene and get him to safety to my knowledge all he was doing was talking to himself and licking windows and doing the very things that he would do if he was having a crisis a mental crisis. He had been on a bus travelling from one family members home to his mother's home. And that's when the police were called because of the his behavior struck some people as strange, right? Yes. And again, his behalf. Vior is what was IMF assize in the court with the first officer who was tried for assault, which I felt was very disturbing because the officer didn't have schizophrenia or any other mental disease. So I don't understand why Zack's behavior was such an issue when he was sick. He you know, you would not become so critical of someone who has cancer in is in need of a doctor. But at the same time for those who understand schizophrenia. There's nothing off about talking to yourself when you have that condition. That's a normal part of that condition as we said, no officer was convicted in his death. But all four of the officers involved were fired by the Mahal police department. Let's listen to a clip of the police chief Todd sh- mater four days after your brother's death. It is well. Document and Wiley agreed that there are deficiencies and addressing mental illness in our country mental illnesses, a complex issue and being mentally ill. In of itself is not a crime, nor should it ever. Be too often. Law enforcement is left to deal one on one with individuals and mental crisis in this incident, despite our extensive training we failed. Does that bring you any comfort to hear that from the police chief after the fact now, it it hurts even more because here is someone saying we failed, and it honestly feels like like we messed up on the job like as if they work at a fast food place, and they messed up an order or something like what happens though, you can't mess up on the job and take someone's life. It just we can't live in a world where it's that dangerous. This is not the only story of someone dying in police custody that's rippled through Indian country in recent years just shortly after your brother's death of fourteen year old boy named Jason Perreault was shot and killed by police on the bad river reservation in Wisconsin. Why do you think that these stories typically don't break through the mainstream news cycle the way that other police shootings have because native people in this country are completely ignored the humanized? You know, when it comes to mascots and media in Hollywood where oftentimes portrayed as being people of the past not as current living human beings. I don't think that this country even factors us in when talking about any of these issues in our country, which is very hurtful because we have right now the highest rate of death by police in this country than any other group. And so the fact that we don't have very much attention on it is very disheartening Adrian cello. Pau thank you for speaking. With us about your brother Zachary bare hills who died in the custody of the. Omaha police in twenty seventeen we it. Thank you. And let's put Zachary story into perspective because according to the treatment advocacy center at least one in four people killed by police in America has a serious mental illness, many officers are getting trained to de-escalate interactions with people who are mentally ill. But the city of Eugene Oregon is taking a different approach sending mental health counselors not police to nine one one calls involving a person in a crisis. Kate Gillespie is a clinical coordinator for cahoots which stands for crisis assistance, helping out on the streets. Kate, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, Peter. And I know you were not there the night that Zachary bear heels died in police custody in Omaha. But do you believe it could have been possible to defuse a situation like that without even having to call police to the scene in the first place? Well, as you mentioned, I wasn't there that night. So I don't know exactly what happened. But. Here in Eugene. We have had crisis helping out on the streets for thirty years since nineteen Eighty-nine we've been working in collaboration with our local police departments. And we respond to about seventy percent of our calls without any other agencies with us. So yes, I do believe that there are ways to have responses that aren't police officer responses to mental health crisis. What to clued does go wrong in your experience when police confront someone who is mentally ill in the situation deteriorates because I'm trying to understand better. How what you do looks different than than what a police officer might do on the scene. Well for one thing when we arrive on scene we carry police radios, but we are not armed with weapons. So that's not something that we think of we like to meet people where they're at and see. Them as the best judges of their own lives, even people that aren't maybe as grounded in the reality that you, and I are experiencing still have a pretty good grasp on what their needs are in the moment. But you're there because somebody called nine one one and asked for police to come. Yes, we are dispatched through police radio. And we're able to go in and talk to people and part of that's how we position our bodies. How we interact with people we are a voluntary service. So we don't take people against their will and giving people the option to say no can be really humanizing and empowering to the person to have some locus of control of their own life and situation many police departments around the country as you well know have started training their officers in these types of situations. But this group called the treatment advocacy center, which we mentioned says that most officers still have not got any. Kinda help with this. Why do you think it's only been in the past few years that people are even talking about this issue? Well, I would say I've worked on the cahoots fan for almost ten years. And I think that we are seeing more and more acuity of mental health crises across the country. So that's probably one of the factors driving it. And because police officers become the defacto mental health intervention often the need to train them as even greater now. And they have incredibly difficult jobs. They are putting their lives on the line everyday when they go out onto the streets. But what would you like more officers to understand about working with people who are mentally ill? I think that when an officer arrives in uniform, then they're perceived in a certain way, and I think that we have to understand that that's a difficult job for them as well as. There's different ways to interface with people and that forces not always the answer we can slow things down and by slowing down interactions. There's not as much of a rush to escalate things, do you think that your work in the work of your colleagues has prevented someone's death at the end of the police officer. Yeah, I think that there is times where just the officers knowing that they have the option to call cahoots in makes it so that they don't have as much pressure. And maybe keeps them from getting to an escalated state where they might make choices that wouldn't be as good of an outcome for the person that they're apprehending could be a crisis counselor and coordinator for the coots program in Eugene, Oregon, Kate thanks for the work that you do things for speaking with us. Thanks for your time today. Peter. Here now is supported by legalzoom who want you to know that if you wanna make twenty nineteen year you finally start a business or secure your family's future. Legalzoom can help with their network of independent attorneys. Licensed in all fifty states legalzoom can help you navigate your legal needs from wills and trusts to LLC's trademarks contract, reviews and more. And the best part is legalzoom is not a law firm. So they don't charge by the hour. More at legalzoom dot com slash now. As we heard at the top of the hour from NPR's, David Schaper groups like flyers right are asking that the Boeing seven thirty seven max, eight planes, be grounded in the US as they have been in other countries after that crash in Ethiopia this weekend, which was just five months after the same kind of plane crashed in Indonesia, what would a US grounding mean I'll evil she is MSNBC anchor and economics correspondent, hi Allie. I'm good and you're also pie and training. We want right. But American Airlines has twenty four of these plans, and we spoke to an American pilot yesterday. He said, well, he didn't know that much about how to override the system in the seven thirty seven that has caused so much concern. He does know now he would fly the plane, but this morning on morning edition of pie that said he'd get on one of these planes, but he wouldn't put his granddaughter on one. What's that? So we've got about fifty of these planes between south west and American Airlines, they can be taken out of service. But it does seem to be that if you were properly trained in how to handle it you can handle it in that. You know, that information has been sent out to pilots the issue is when a safety concern arises on a plane, particularly with the way the plane is pitching if it's going down or up, and you don't think that's supposed to happen. The thing that pilot has to do to correct. It is very different than what intuition would tell you to do. And that's what whether it's the the plane that went down the Air France plane that went down in the Atlantic or the lion airplane, you have to know how your particular plane behaves now the pilots in the airline's flight don't tend to have as much training as US pilot student. That's why the US airlines are responding by saying we don't think it's a plane problem. We think it's a how to handle the plane problem. And we think we're well trained in them this feeling of lack of trust. I mean bones importance to the US economy cannot be overstated or. Largest US exporter. So what happens if people don't trust and to not trust seven thirty seven model plane, right? This is the seven thirty seven max eight, but it's a continuation of a plane that started in nineteen sixty seven it is the world's most popular commercial plane and into the best selling plane for Boeing right now. So it's a major deal and some passengers are expressing concerns right there. We have reports of passengers on American Airlines flight out of Miami complaining to flight attendants some claim they wouldn't have boarded if they knew the make of the plane some airline workers of expressed concern some flight attendants have so it is much more matter of trust than a matter of technical specifications about how to stop these planes from crashing. But that's no small matter. And we say there's been no conclusive evidence that it is this system the pulmonary investigation. The lion air flight points to it. But not conclusive in nothing in these yo paean, so it'd be making a perfectly acceptable decision. But this is an anti regulatory adminis-. Stray Shen Patrick Shanahan. The actress acting secretary of defense is a former Boeing executive there had been questions about whether he has improper influence of favoring Boeing our suspicions gonna make their way into this. While they always do in these things, but I will tell you a regardless of who's the administration airlines never want the the regulator to impose a ground. You know? Grounding airlines saving with autumn automobiles. Right. They want to do these things voluntarily and what Boeing doesn't want to do is have all of its clients out. There told don't fly this airplane there. Okay. Which some of these people grounding, the airplanes and dealing with whatever has to be done, but always airline never once the FAA to do it. So I'm not terribly surprised. I do think within seventy two hours we're going to see most US airliners stop playing this planet figure out. She thank you so much. Researchers recently got the first glimpse of what may be a new species of orca swimming off the southern tip of South America. The animals are known as type d killer whales. They had been seen in old photographs taken after a mass stranding in New Zealand in nineteen fifty five. But until recently scientists had never seen them in their natural state. Bob Pittman was one of the scientists who made the discovery he's a marine ecology with the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration in joins us now. Bob, welcome glad to be here. Peter. So you were part of this team that made the discovery back in January take us back to that day because you are very very remote part of the planet. Yes. We're off the tip of Cape Horn, which has some of the nastiest weather in the world. We had a good idea about where we might find these Wales based on fishermen reports and photos, but we just needed a weather break, and we had a chartered vessel for we figured we'd need three weeks to get one or two good days of weather, and we had one good day and didn't find anything, and then we had to sit at anchor for eight days while the wind blew forty fifty knots cleared up one morning, and we went out and there they were. So you kind of had to break through the fog of seasickness to get through to actually seen some of these these magnificent animals, I imagine because they had never been seen before by scientists for me personally, these photos from nineteen fifty five in New Zealand had been around for over fifty years. We knew about that they were still alive from some photos that surfaced in two thousand five and I started looking for him at that time. And yeah, it was it was quite shocking to actually. See them in the flesh after all these years. So how is it type d killer whale different from the orcas that we know say that live in the Puget Sound Washington state. Okay. Well, based on the photos, we knew that they were probably smaller than regular killer whales. They had much more rounded head instead of being tapered at the the front end and most interestingly, they have a very tiny little I patch. It's a very different looking killer whale. In fact, most anybody's ever seen a killer whale immediately recognizes that this is a completely different animal in when you got up close to these animals, you're able to take some tissue samples from them. Right. And is that what's gonna prove whether or not they're actually their own unique species. Yeah, we have a crossbow and we've fire these darts that bounce off the whales. Take a little slip of skin about the size of a pencil racer and the dark floats at the surface, and we pick it up, and we got three of those, and we'll be able to do some genetic analyses and see how type d. Killer whales compare with other kilowatt. So what is the debater? If there is one about whether or not these represent a new species because it doesn't really seem like we're talking about the difference between a chimpanzee and a human being, for instance, not only are the very different looking. But most importantly, the fishermen report that quite often they see both types of killer whales regular killer whales type DS come into their fishing gear to take fish off. And when they do the larger regular killer whales drive off the smaller type DS and and keep them at bay. So this is important information. That shows why type deacon manage to look different than regular killer whales because they they don't socialize with them. And they almost certainly don't interbred with them type d is not the flashiest name. Can you come up with something different? Well, we suggested Subang Arctic kilowatt because that tells us about the the habitat that they that they live in a lot of killer whales in the southern. His fear. Migrate to Antarctica. This type apparently can't handle the cold water. So we suggested sub Antarctic killer whale. But you know, you can floated out there and see if it catches on somebody may come up with something more poetic, what does it say to you that you are potentially on the verge of discovering this massive new animal in the ocean that went hidden for so long on the planet. You know, once we started plotting out with a sightings were they were down in forty fifty degrees south. That's the roaring forties and the furious fifties, it's an offshore animal. It lives in the most inhospitable weather on the planet. It's not surprising at all that that this animal went so many years without ever being identified by science. It's a good place to hide a large animal makes you wonder what else is out there. It does. That's what I think is very interesting about this. If we can find an animal this large that looks so completely different. What else is out there? Bob Pittman is a marina colleges with the National Oceanic and atmosphere administration. One of the scientists on board the vessel that came across a pot of what could become a new species of orca off the coast of Chile in January baba been avoiding references to Moby Dick this entire time. But you're certainly on a mission defined this animal, and you got it. So congratulations and thanks for speaking with us. Thank you, Peter. And a story now about music, which for millions of us means digital music last year almost half of all Americans. Paid for audio streaming services like Spotify. Still the vinyl record industry is booming. People under thirty are driving the increase in vinyl sales, and that demand is reviving industry long thought. Dead alley Schweitzer of member station W AMU visited a new record pressing plant in northern Virginia. Inside a cavernous warehouse. Watching the metal rollers of conveyor belt spin around and around there whisking away stacks of freshly package Beck albums, the twelve inch LP's slide down a ramp and plop onto the conveyor belt. You won't hear that on Spotify. But you will at this place. I'm at furnace record pressing in Alexandria, Virginia. It's a new record manufacturing plant that opened amid skyrocketing demand for old fashioned vinyl. This is where the sleeved vinyl gets put in the jacket. That's nNcholas Tolson furnaces sales director, he showing me around the plants assembly room, which smells faintly plastic. Furnace has been in the vinyl business for about a decade. It used outsource all its pressing to plant in Germany at the time presses were in short supply in the US. But in the last two months furnace has been manufacturing its own records. So this is the actual pressroom. This is where records or getting pressed Tolson takes me into a room full of noisy, heavy duty machinery. Workers in. Here are minding a whole team. Pair of bright orange record presses each about the size of a small SUV these presses use immense hydraulic pressure to make playable records out of melted. PVC? That's the same type of plastic found in pipes and window frames. A metal plate stamps grooves onto the PVC. And a few steps later. You've got a playable record on any given day furnace might be pressing records by a local band right next to reissued classics by lead belly or Jerry Garcia mob. To me Jammie way. The. Mark writer overseas manufacturing furnace. Can do a record every thirty seconds. Basically these machines are state of the art built recently by a company in Canada as vinyl sales have soared in the last decade at least two companies have begun building modernized record presses. But like any mechanical equipment these contraptions sometimes fail? Writer says. Just started making better eckerd's, and it'll take an hour and a half to two hours to figure out what went wrong for. Maybe. Nothing went wrong. It just decided not today when that happens workers simply meltdown the bad batch and reuse the PVC owner, Eric Astor says that messy process is part of the beauty of pressing vinyl. That's like farm-to-table, right? It's a little more Ganic Astor says listening to the rich sound vinyl studying it's artwork and just holding a recording in your hand fosters and appreciation for music that's tough to get from an online stream final presents music in a way that you're looking at phone screen or looking on YouTube or something does not. And it sounds great. So it's the perfect imperfect medium if you will and Astor says, it's a medium more young people have begun to appreciate vinyl sales. Have started to cool down after years of massive growth, but artists large and small still keep furnace plan. Busy Astra says soon furnace will be able to press between seven and nine million records annually, but his longer term goal is to train the next generation of record press technicians. A lot of these folks that have been in the industry for a long time or are starting to leave the industry, and we need to try to get all of their knowledge into our brains. That's why Astor says furnace is on the lookout for high school or college age apprentices who want to learn the trade. Young people helped bring vinyl back Astor says and now the industry's future is in their hands for here. Now, I'm Elliot weizer. Thanks. Respond. The ride hailing company lift is going public to the tune of at least fifteen billion dollars. But like its rival Uber, which is also poised to file for an IPO lift is still losing money. Why aren't markets? More worried about tech giant's with negative balance-sheets. People does no one. Remember, the pet dot com. Sock puppet. For more. Let's go to our weekly guide to the world of tech Recode. Ronnie Mola is data editor for Rico Chee joins us from New York irony. Hi, thanks for having me. Well in case people don't remember the online pet supply store. petScom got a lot of attention for its sock puppet. But it collapsed because the company itself was very strong in the dot com. Bubble burst of two thousand you right in Recode this week that the last time unprofitable companies went public at this rate was then so let's take a closer. Look how is it that lift more than two billion dollars in revenue last year is still losing money. They've outsourced their workforce. They don't have factories. What are they spending on? Well, it still costs a lot to bring in that revenue in the first place. They have to pay for insurance payment processing the lift platform itself. It's also important to note that lift could have turned a profit if they hadn't spent money on marketing or on research and development, but if they didn't spend that money on marketing, and research and development, they wouldn't have more customers coming in. And they wouldn't have a few. Cher- in which they someday have autonomous cars and don't have to pay drivers anything, and we should say that the big rival Uber is also losing money. They are also preparing for an IPO one that dwarf lifts is this because even though it seems to us like they have an awful lot of money. They need more. They do. Well, they certainly think they need more money. They're going to the public markets. So that they could raise money much more quickly than they can as a private company. The idea is that they use all this money put it back into their company and grow. They you know, they expand more areas, they expended different business models. They get more customers by advertising, and then in the long run the hope is that they'll make a profit because of all the spending now. Yes. And what else might they be spending in on? And we were just thinking how is this possible? And someone suggested well, maybe, you know, research and development. Driverless cars would else might investors like to hear that lift is spending money. On. Well, I know at least for Uber. Uber is spending on things like Uber eats, which is the food delivery investors like to see that there. That they're spreading they're hedging their bets a little bit. But I'm lift definitely is investing in autonomous vehicles. They hope to one day just be able to take in the whole cost of the fair as opposed to giving quite a bit of that to the drivers themselves. We know Ronnie him hearing all these numbers, and I'm sure lift an Uber drivers are hearing to these numbers in the billions of dollars an IPO and many people are drivers as a full-time gig or to supplement other income. But we know there's not a huge ton of money to be made just kind of curious. Do you think that this investment this, you know, going public will this money filter down to better income for those drivers? I doubt it right now Uber and lift or sort of in an arms race of who could have lower prices and they're competing with each other. And they're trying to beat each other out across the country. So I don't think that's gonna lead to higher prices. They're not going to get more. Customers by charging more. And in the long run. What these investments that Uber? And lift are making will do is actually they're trying to have Thomas vehicles. They're trying to vehicles that drive themselves. So eventually there won't be drivers at all. Okay. We'll win could have hoped there. What in general does this mean all these huge PEOs? Is there something than in general, it might mean about the economy? Yes. And no there's a lot of differences. I the the thing that everyone saying is that this is a lot like the dot com bubble when a bunch of tech companies a lot of investors were speculating on companies, and then the market crashed the thing that's different about this. Now is that even though there's so many the rate of PEOs is the same eighty one percent of them are unprofitable last year. There's a lot fewer of them in general. There's also the companies that are going public are older they've been around for a long time. So they've have more proven business models than the ones during the dot com. Bubble the revenues also a lot higher, and as I mentioned earlier, quite a few of these companies could be profitable. It's not their choosing not to be. In order to put the money back into their businesses and grow, right? It's not the sock puppet for petScom. He was so popular is on good Morning, America and everything. But it turns out not really I mean that went from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand. So it was just in a heartbeat as you said, these companies are older, Ronnie Mola data editor for Recode. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hear now is a production of NPR and WBZ association with the BBC World Service. I'm Robin young here. Now. This is here now.
31 We're in Deep: Earth Overshoot Day 2019
"Erica what if I told you the end is near so near in fact that I can give you the date July twenty ninth. That's next week Dave. We have some work to do. We're growth busters after all we are and we'll explore that subject next on the growth busters podcast okay well you have entered the growth busters Mr podcast about the joy of living sustainably in fact the absolute necessity of living sustainably. I'm your host Dave Gardner. I am joined as always by Eric areas now released everybody with this thought at the end is near and so I'm sure that they're on pins and needles but we're going to have to make wait just a couple more minutes before we dig into the Metoo this episode because as always WanNa share a little bit of listener feedback and then I've got one quick little breaking news thing that I'd love to get your take on real quick are cool without I am call at that great listener feedback. We've got a problem on the growth busters website and you cannot post to comment on the website right now. We've got some kind of a glitch developed and we haven't had a chance to get up fixed yet so I apologize. I know that's the only reason we didn't get a hundred comments on our last episode. The overshoot playlist the top ten environmental songs of all time because by every other method we heard from lots of people to say got a few the emails myself a lot of song recommendations which is really exciting so hey thanks listeners yes. I'm really glad that that cut everyone's fancy so thanks for listening to that episode. I think it's kind of more fun than usual episode in some ways and we have gotten lots of suggestions for songs that either maybe we overlooked and should have made the top ten list or at the very least should be added to <hes> to a growing list in effect Eric. I know you've put together a spotify playlist listen. You've added the worthy nominations to that playlist right I have we are a close to about. Gosh me songs do we have. I can look that up right now. As of today we have a total ooh fifty five songs. Wow what so that's great what I think we ought to do is start planning another episode where we do a follow up and we do a similar playlist. Let's do another one like that. Let's do it until the thing on the website fixed you can comment on the growth busters podcast facebook page or the growth busters facebook page or growth busters twitter. You can tweet us you can <hes> email US podcast podcast at growth busters dot org so you have ways of finding us if you have something that you wanNA share and we're getting quite a collection of of those things that'll take us a long time to catch up today. We've got kind of along episode as it is. I think so just gonNA share one little bit of listener feedback and interestingly this came from a podcast APP called cast box. I haven't been using it but I discovered that there is a <hes> a desktop version so I went on my laptop to check it out and there's actually a place there for listeners to post comments about the episodes and there was a comment that was made back in January so interestingly interestingly. This is a little bit related to this whole end is near thing that I teased you at the beginning episode twenty. Three of the growth busters podcast was titled. What do you do when the end is near and Eric? I don't know if you remember. I'm pretty sure you did listen to that was before you joined as Co host but I had Madeline Somerville on with me. Madeline wrote the book. All you need is less and for about a year or two. She wrote disgraced column in the U._K.. Guardian with by the same name Malia Nita's less very smart Canadian lady and part of our conversation Madeleine. I and I talked a little bit about the ditching of the plastic Straw early. Remember how that came up but anyway so C._J.. wrote a comment that referred to that so let me share that comment with you Erica C._J.. wrote she's right. fussing with straws won't help but the conundrum I feel is the one she brings up. which future do we prepare for? I'm trying to have a foot in the normal society and a foot in the prepping for collapse just one little note. Is that often changing our energy-wasting habits saves a lot of money too so I'm going to start using my dryer much less. I don't buy drinks out so I don't even need those straws l._l.. Thanks a lot dave. Thanks J._J.. Is True that ditching this rise and going to make us break us on saving human civilization. Don't bring us a little closer every little the vet counts great every little bit helps. It's not like it takes a lot of effort and it's not like it's GonNa ruin. The Global Economy Heaven Forbid that I think the problem really exists when people think well. I'm saving stras so now I can and do whatever I want and I can have ten kids and eat meat every single day and drive hundred miles a day and just not care because you're saving Strauss. You're bringing up something that we've heard lately from somebody who's pretty smart and I hear it from time to time and I think we're going to do a whole episode about this whole moral license phenomenon this theory that if people put some energy into some of the simple things things that have nothing left have no focus left put into the importance stuff or they they kinda. Give themselves permission to to not do the important stuff. I'm not sure I buy into that Erica. I'm just not sure off the presses world resources sources institute just released the results of study <hes> they're trying to figure out whether we could by cutting beef consumption feed a world of ten billion people. I was Kinda. I think the mission of the study and I just came across my desk this morning via Eko watch so there's this piece and we'll put a link in the show notes <hes> so the headline has cut beef consumption in half to help save the Earth says new study may read to you the first paragraph the world's population relation will hit ten billion in just thirty years and all of those people need to eat to feed that many humans with the resources earth has way will have to cut down the amount of beef wheat according to a new report by the World Resources Institute Eric. I learned to bring that up because one I think very highly of the World Resources Institute to begin with and of course they did not right this little news story somewhat Jordan Davidson wrote this news story at Eko watching a little bit of a bone pick with Jordan because Jordan states that the world's population will hit ten billion and just thirty years as though that's a fact and the you know is predicted by some that it will but we do not know that in fact it is not necessarily our destiny. I've heard between nine and twelve billion then it's really hard to accurately assess how many we will be by that time chirp but don't you know the most official one is the most recent world population prospects that the U._N.. Just published in in June <hes> puts that number at most likely to be at ten point nine billion but my point is we just don't know that one thing we do know as we really don't WanNa go there okay and we don't have to go there that is not predestined at this point. We could choose quite a different trajectory so that bugs me that Jordan just stated that aspect and then the next paragraph Jordan rights to feed growing world Americans will need to eat about about forty percent less beef <unk> to feed a growing world. It's like it's inevitable like we're not doing anything to address the fact that we're growing. We got it rowing world. So what can we do allow. That's what humans do so they do. They not arguing against cutting beef consumption. I have cut in the last couple years I of way back from what I used to eat. In the way of all kinds of meat yeah I thought it was pretty interesting that he only spoke about reducing beef consumption but not chicken or fish and I think we have a lot of vegans out there. Maybe Vegetarians out there. That wouldn't be very happy about his focus on just cutting beef. I enjoy meat but three rebe burgers a week on average is what he writes and that's a little ridiculous. You know my aim is a burger. A month is what I aim for and I'm not saying I'm perfect. I mean I'd be more perfect. If I had zero burgers a month but the point I wanna make his that well. That's going to be difficult to get people around the world to cut back on their big consumption and I don't suggest that we not try but you know what's even easier to do and that is for people to choose to have fewer children just to say let's not put heroic efforts into figuring out how to feed ten point nine billion. Let's not have ten point nine billion. Is that really that easy though aw to convince people you and I for what it's not an easier than getting them to give me apparently but the world of physics really you mean. It really isn't that hard and in fact the human race has demonstrated that we have this great ability to do that because we've cut the global average fertility rate in half over the last fifty years meanwhile voluntarily we've done nothing about cutting back on our meat consumption so just bugs me that Jordan and I'm sure every other journalists that's writing today about that. Report is going to treat ten point nine billion as a fait accompli. That's going to happen what we're GONNA. Do we have got to figure out a way to ten point nine billion and you know a lot of the trouble that we got ourselves into today and the world of climate change ocean dead zones and a few other things is the way we modified agriculture to feed the seven point seven billion that we have today Dan defeat some of them very poorly but the heroic efforts the green revolution created this modern industrial agriculture system that is wrecking the planet today so do we know that having fewer children doesn't wreck the planet. There are no serious unintended consequences of that so just saying there is a mentioning of the eight hundred twenty million starving people on the world. Will that's GONNA change to. There's going to be much. That's that's really not gonna go anywhere so yeah unless you ask them about him us. They'll have a different opinion on that so anyway we'll put a link that echo watch story which will have links in turn to the report itself and maybe one of these days I'll get around rating because I just think it's it's a distraction. You know we probably need to do it but there are some things that are more important for us to do like over our obsession and with economic growth and to get over our fear trepidation over talking about just having smaller families and and admitting that the world's overpopulated and that we need to change that trajectory for sure greed okay. Are you ready for the main event yes sir I know I scared to death with July twenty ninth being the end well. It's not the end of civilization. We don't think but July twenty ninth two thousand nineteen is Earth Overshoot Day and that's certainly not caused for celebration. It's a sad day. It's <hes> it's arriving earlier in earlier every year and <hes> we can actually do something about it and and we're not and that is the subject of this episode because we're releasing this shortly before July twenty ninth and we want you to know that July twenty ninth is Earth Overshoot Day. We want you to know what that is and so far when we've gone out on the streets nice to talk to people ask them questions engage their level of knowledge about this sadly we have found that berry very few people have ever heard of earth overshoot day almost as few have ever heard of overshoot understand understand what overshoot is so this episode we're going to safer can't change that a little bit in order to do that. We're actually going to give the issue full exploration. If we're really lucky on earth overshoot day the mainstream media some of them anyway may give that subject a little bit of time but I guarantee you if they do if we're lucky enough that they do report on it in the broadcast media and or audio or video media. We're going to be lucky to get three or four-minute story about it and in the print and online texts world where we might be lucky if we get a page about it and it really deserves a lot more exploration so Erica and Dave are going to and do you the favor of giving you a deeper dive. Let's get on with it right. Let's do it so first of all what the Hell is overshoot. Yeah overshoots. I guess in the simplest terms is when the entire entire planet is consuming more resources than the world is able to replenish overshoot as what happens when our ecological footprint exceeds the biocapacity of the planet. Your ecological footprint is what you consume and occupy on the planet in order to live the demand that you make on the planet. That's our ecological footprints. Main consumption categories would be food housing mobility goods and services and as it happens food production which we've been talking about food production uses over half of our planet's biocapacity by the way but anyway when you take shower drink a glass of water or when you eat your breakfast when you get in the car and drive somewhere when you get on an airplane and fly somewhere when you get on the bus so the train almost everything you do throughout your day you are using planetary resources stopped me if I'm wrong on this Erica your share of all that that you're using that's all adds up to be part of your ecological footprint and then there's another really important part of it. which is your waist what you do when you go into the bathroom? Your carbon emissions from burning fossil fuels the the carbon emissions from the manufacturer of that brand new refrigerator that you just put in your kitchen last week the manufacturer of the car that you may have purchased a certainly the carbon emissions from burning fuel to move around the carbon emissions from heating air conditioning your office in your house all that stuff all adds up into your ecological footprint. It is a really expensive just being a human. Isn't it Dave we don't really think about yeah we're pretty hard on the planet and so living sustainably really is all about a balance and so there are a couple of really smart guys back in the nineties William Reese who was a professor at the University of British Columbia and Mattis Walker Colonel who was a doctoral student working with Dr Reese and they came up with this concept of ecological footprint and they wrote a book about it so good book. I think it was called your ecological footprint remember correctly everything I just told you was the stuff that they dreamed aimed up just a concept on approach to analyzing how sustainably were living yeah measuring it yeah and analyzing ecological footprint analysis and Mattis Walker Nago being a really good student apparently eventually chilly. He decided that the world really needed to be looking at this measuring this scientifically around the world year in year out and in two thousand three founded the global footprint network and and this organization has been doing that they collect you in data like fifteen thousand data points for every country and they compute every year what the average ecological footprint is of the citizen in each country what their average footprint is and the biocapacity city of each country and come up with a an average per person living in that country and so each country every year gets a report card as to whether they're citizens are living within the biocapacity of their country or overshooting yet and then also we get this global total the global biocapacity and the global footprint of the human race and that's the big thing and that's what July twenty ninth is all about is that they have determined Mond that this year by July twenty ninth the total human race will have already burned through all of the resources that takes the planet a year to regenerate. It's really sad I leave anything anything you want to clarify or add to that. Yeah I really appreciate the analogy that Martha seizes which is like just simple bull accounting principal and how we are able to pay attention to that on a daily basis you know how much money is in your bank. You know what you're spending. You know how much you need to spend a remain in budget but we don't think about that in terms of the world or our own personal space being our bank and it's not just my bank but it's everybody's bank what I use effects everybody else and it works both ways so I i. That's a really important point to stress if you're listening and this is the first time you've really been exposed to this. You have a million questions. I'm sure and most of your questions I think are going to get answered in this episode but we'll have a lot of really useful links six in the show notes to help you dive into the subject a little bit more deeply so fear not and Erica you mentioned earlier that Earth Overshoot Day has been moving earlier and earlier every year and of course that's bad news because if we were living living in something approaching sustainable balance with the by capacity of the planet Earth Overshoot Day would be December thirty first or maybe even January for so the next year instead here we are in July now and I think even more important than the actual actual day really is the trend if the day was moving later each year then we could probably pat ourselves on the back and say we must be doing something right. Let's keep it up whatever that is but it's been going earlier so back in nineteen seventy by their calculations earth overshoot day was was December twenty ninth. We were almost imbalance in nineteen seventy that was about the year that we I crossed over that red line and overshoot ten years later that date had moved earlier to November fourth ten years later nineteen ninety. The date was October eleventh in two thousand. It was September twenty third in two thousand ten. It was August seventh and here we are two thousand nineteen at July twenty nine so the trend is not good. That's for sure her no. Let's just go to the conversation with Marcus Walker knuckle get straight from the horses. Let's do it all right. It's really good to speak with you mattis. Thanks for joining us. It's a pleasure thank you for having me. Let me I say about this new book ecological footprint managing our biocapacity budget. I think it's due out what September third is that right. That's correct this going to press. I want to compliment you on that and I go out on a limb and say that I predict this is really going to be a seminal work. This is going to be not just another book about the environmental crises that humankind has been creating but it's GonNa go down in history along with silence spring the limits to growth probably William Catton's overshoot <hes> this is going to go down history. I think as one of the best books I really really impressed with it and I wanNA. Thank you for writing thing it. Thank you very much at fun writing. Will that's good that always helps when it's fun. Global footprint network has been crunching you in data and reporting two things to us for many years now you've been reporting national and global biocapacity and then also the demands that we're putting on that biocapacity ecological footprint. Why should anyone care? It's not to separate things. It's like when we account for money. We want to know how much we spend much earn. Just no one side. It's not that useful comparing how much we use compared to how much we have whether it's money or resources is quite essential. We are gonNA silly situation where we think only money counts and physics doesn't count. That's a bit of a S.. Silly Path Buron <hes> but I think the starting to recognize that using more resources than earth can renew produces serious consequences one very obvious one is to accumulation Japanese is fear and and we can see how hard is to turn the boat around <hes> the accommodation is increasing still because even the emissions are increasing still and understanding how much we have compared to how much the uses different Africa essential and maybe you can help answer this just for our listeners. I don't know can you define what is overshoot. Overshoot is when be used more from nature the nature can renew and that has happened. I think through human history very much in our local basis we overused one area and that we moved on what's new today is that we do it and they global basis. If you can calculate calculate the human demand humanities demand on all ecosystems. Systems and compare it with what can renew <hes>. It's for the first time in human history the last four years that we have been using more than what can renew and that's possible for some time like local overshoot as possible for some time but you start to deplete the underlying strength of nature and nature will be able to produce less than your demand is higher and eventually that physical constraints will force us to kind of consume less as a whole so overshoot will end. What do we like it or not in the big question is what we do it by design or disaster we can choose ourselves or we will be told how to do it told by nature so just to clarify so what you're saying is? We've been in overshoot for the past forty years correct even more than forty years now yes the early seventies when we started to enter overshoot and it's something that you don't feel directly. It's like with Your Bank Account A._T._M.. Machine doesn't tell you took out more than you put in. You know you can as long as you have assets that you can deplete you can take out more <hes> and so if you don't have accounts it doesn't tell you to what extent financially you're in a positive situation situation and the same thing is true for resources. If you don't have accounts we don't see immediately to what extent you're taking more than what be regenerate think of a forest forest has huge stocks of trees and what we take out in a year is much much less than the stock that standing into forest so he can quite a long time deplete the forest more than what it regenerates but if we have good forrester that keeps account that's how many trees are actually growing growing at the Satan rate as we are depleting the forest and we can manage to force sustainably now some people might have a hard time just buying this that we could be in overshoot for close to fifty years and yet you turn on the Faucet water comes out you go to the grocery store. There's food on the shelves. How can we go so long without disaster? Many listeners may have heard of earth overshoot day we mark every year today. When humanity has used from January first I do that date as much as earth can renewed the entire year this year it falls on July twenty nine th last year it was August I today just coming still earlier and earlier every year and so radio hosts have said okay <hes>? You said it was overshadowed. Yesterday I opened my fridge and there was still beard. My Fridge is that possible and it's like with money too. I mean we can we can spend more than what earned for some time as long as we have assets or we can go into debt and and that's what we're doing so not running into like fixed walls. It's possible to overuse to over-fish over harvest forest over pumps youtube the atmosphere to over deplete freshwater to deplete soils for some time but not forever. Do you happen to know who I coined the term overshoot. I don't know what I know is that it's not very much used. I mean overshoot is used a number of different disciplines. Ecologists probably have used it. I think for one hundred years so it became more popular with the book limits to growth at came out in nineteen seventy two and then Caton as you mentioned as well cut and wrote a very interesting book for I think the first sociologist who recognize is the implications of <unk> over us for the human civilization inequality profound way but it's still not a very well understood concept. I mean to strange thing is hard. Were to translate another languages. We operate it may different languages and most languages that didn't have a word for it. It's like if you had a disease doctors even know the name of disease. Let alone a therapy. That's kind of silly particularly considering how deep we yard overshoot so it's a concept that's why I mean also by capacity overshoot et CETERA. It's similar to kind of helping people to understand gravity gravity whether you like it or not is the stair understanding it helps architects build better eh buildings if you don't understand gravity bridges are not that strong last long. It's still hard to go up the hill. Even if you know gravitate doesn't change it but you understand why and so the same thing understanding by capacity how much earth can renew and to what extent we can overshoot how need to operate. It's not directive. It's a tool to help us better context realize our lives so pretty widely understood by ecologists and maybe physicist but not by political leaders eaters journalists everyday people I mean one tragedy is that in in particular the West most of the governments are run by people from social sciences like lawyers economists and particularly I would say since word were to who the social sciences have been quite devoid of physical concepts we can go into Y. That's the case but we operate as if there was no time or space or matter in in those theories and so I think there familiarity with physical concept is not particularly strong is that one of the things you're trying to change with earth overshoot day. Absolutely I think that's one of my proudest pieces of work that we do and that can be proud of it because he was nine invention a friend of ours Andrew Sims came up with the idea of let's market as as overshoot day because that's understandable and what particularly proud about is that we can explain something quite sophisticated in simple to syllable words that everybody understand no be concepts who don't even have to say ecological footprint nearby capacity. You can say between active this one three syllable word that most people understand January you know so between January first and July twenty one thousand nine hundred people have used as much as earth can renew Indian tire year so the only three syllable word was January pretty simple and it gives you also a clear quantitive understanding the people understand can of Oh yeah how many days are in the year and is July twenty ninth earlier in the year late in the year <hes> with September better than July and so he makes it understandable in a way that probably to degree Celsius or three hundred fifty ppm whatever be used as measures may not translate as well. That's true too because I am a fan. I definitely want to try to anticipate to critiques that we might get when you've been around that blog a timer to so when I ask you about whether you're ecological footprint accounting that comes up with this date. Would you characterize it as pretty conservative I would say it's quite robust kind of jokingly saying what we're doing being is totally pedestrian science because what we do is even more simple than financial accounting when do financial accounting. It's actually not that simple because you need to understand the difference between for example revenue and profit didn't accompany you have to contact differently so the physical counting we do is really straightforward with quite a simple assumption. We believe that the most limiting material factor that humanity is facing is the earth ability to remove. It's more limiting then how much fossil fuel we have underground because what we're starting to realize that we have a lot of fossil fuel underground compared to what the biosphere can take up from the C._O.. Two emissions also minerals and metals pretty plan to full compared compare to the energy takes to concentrate them at dig deeper holes and mining deeper et Cetera so ultimately the most limiting factor is would earth can remove so by mapping all physical activities on that renewal. That'd be get a sense of what the physical limitations are for humanity now how we do that as I said is super pedestrians basically every tomato you eat it takes space to produce a tomato and tomato is produced. You cannot at the same time producer potato or cotton or put a cow or build a house etc so all the activities that compete for ecological productive space we can add up. That's as simple as it is now how the complication come from having all the data available around the word and we limit ourselves strictly to you and data just to say okay if the U._N.. Was Right how much would be take compared to what earth can renew and even though a US about fifteen thousand data points per country and year to measure the ecological footprint of the demand on the biosphere. There's a lot of indication <hes> that what we calculate described conservative both on a demand side aid because not all consumption is adequately represented. It's easy to leave something out or says. Not On everything is included that puts a competitive competing demand on the biosphere and on the regeneration side. I think the exaggerate agitate through you and data how productive earth is because we don't include depletion of soil or depletion of water because it's not good data available so be assumed that for example current agricultural yields can be contain the long run and that's also heroic assumption because we boost productivity right now through fertilizes and through water pumping etc to what extent in the long run we're able to maintain these high yields I don't know and and nobody folding owes you know so we can pretty much say beyond a conservative said. Sometimes we say jokingly we're more concerned about our reputation than humanities survivals. WanNa make sure we don't exaggerate a barrier at and still currently I think we can document for for the year two thousand nineteen that the demand that humanity puts on the planet is about seventy five percent higher than would earth can renew that translate and saying be live like as if you had one point seven five earth which we don't have and even using a full earth just for humanity may not be ideal you know better than using one point seven five but year Wilson for example now professor emeritus from Harvard. He's a driver into by divers debate. Now you just turned nine a month ago heat suggest let's use half of the planet because if he used to have of the planet there's good chance that we can maintain about eighty five percent of by diversity. That's using half of the planet but now how humanity uses one point seven five so damn if anything news is worse than you're telling us tragedies not good news or bad news. It's just what it is like in some ways. That's kind of context. The bad news is to be done to react the act. That's kind of the bad news because we could react. It's quite possible to turn things around. I mean not overnight <hes> and the no big magical solutions obviously but technology exists financial viability exists. I know options exist to organize ourselves quite differently. That'd be doing take advantage of them. That's the tragedy Erica it's pretty funny and in fact Mattis you may not here as much from Erica as expected because you're answering all of her questions the question stuff Erica you just feel free to waive. Get a word in it seems like we're well down the list already sorry about that. I really enjoyed reading the buck can just listening to you so I'm just a now but I guess it's very clear we've been operating an ecological deficit year. After year. <hes> we've been doing it for over forty or fifty years and so you kind of already answered what what the worry is in brief but <music>. How are we managing to do this? That's kind of a puzzle. Maybe it's a bit too complicated for distinction but at the word level we run overshoot because the word doesn't trade with any other planet yet so whatever Rubik produce what consumer whatever we consume has to be produced for countries. It's quite different I come from Switzerland grew up in Switzerland so obviously the trade flows are very very large so what you consume in Switzerland doesn't necessarily have to be produced in Switzerland so with countries be Kinda compare how much today use compared to what their own ecosystems can redo in Switzerland Switzerland uses now about four and a half Switzerland's and it does do that without over using its own ecosystems so it's not an ecological overshoot locally <hes> but it has a huge demand on the rest of the word. How is that possible through three ways as I said woman it's possible to us more than what you have locally by overusing which Switzerland is not doing the second one is you can net import so for example Switzerland can export expensive watches and financial services services an import oranges and potatoes and grains Cetera so we can have a physical imbalance of trade and sued one is we could access to global commons for free so for example can use international workshops for fishing we can emit C._O.? Two to the atmosphere and says by using the Global Commons without compensating anybody and so these three mechanisms allow Switzerland to us four point five times more than what they have available and because the Swiss economy economy has had high income <hes> we live in delusion that we forever can by the extra money from somewhere else now. The point comes and that's kind of I think the most critical number may tell today is that currently a seventy percent of the world population live in countries that have to conditions one is they run an ecological deficit which is possible to do for some time also depletion and you can you can over us so seventy percent live a a in countries that have an ecological deficit and be their income is less than we're the average now. If everybody doubled their word income that wouldn't change the ratio eater because it's a it's a relative question. Can you know if if if everybody can be above average apparently in school so so seventy percent of the word populations which is very significant strong majority lives in country that has a deficit and doesn't have the money to buy themselves out of the squeeze and that points to a very brutal contradiction is not appreciate enough so when we look at for example the Word Bank they have this slogan ending ending poverty which is wonderful that they want to do that now. Ending poverty is not possible without resource security so just by focusing on economic expansion without having the resource security to feed the machinery is is what medical doctors would call palliative is this kind of it may help us to deplete fast short run but gnawed really enabled us to be healthy in the long run now if we just keep on with businesses as usual than at some point. Would it be true then that because there's going to be so much competition for resources from the rest of the world that at some point Switzerland would no longer be able to import to make up for its so and it for its ecological deficit. I think it's a possibility and it's a possibility that the Ministry of Environment in Switzerland they think sometimes about it but the Ministry of Finance thinks absolutely relevant and I don't understand why I mean it's I haven't heard a good argument yet. Why and it's particularly surprising because Switzerland this very lucky? In World War Two descends that we weren't involved in direct war for every burst surrounded by War Switzerland was neutral and was able to maintain its integrity during the word war and probably physically the most memorable part for Switzerland was that there was enough food so so Switzerland could produce about I think six or seven months worth of food and they could stretch it by eating a little bit less than by having some victory gardens type but then they also have to build a maritime fleet to bring food from the outside to Switzerland during World War Two other northern easy deed and and and so my parents and my grandparents told me into stories about the situation so Switzerland experienced physically what it means not to have enough access to resources and it's like forgotten right now could never happen again <hes> so it's it's. It's very surprising to me. One of your charts that I think is just most informative in it shows that we buy your calculations with the world went into overshoot what nineteen seventy I think but it also shows the world's biocapacity slowly increasing. I think said that it has increased. Maybe about twenty percent over eight years. Now I would think eventually if we really are in overshoot that we would be damaging our ecosystems and eventually that biocapacity would start shrinking I do think do you expect that one of the beauties and also one of the dangers of nature is that it's so incredibly generous and robust so the biosphere is able to cope with stress quite amazingly well which inches off course wonderful in the short run but it also high some of the damages that we leave so if for example one big driver of overuse is to see a two emissions so and the effect of divisions come very very slowly compared to you know <hes> human lights and so even though the cumulation of atmosphere has been quite significant the impact on reduced productivity hasn't been that strong yet we see some impacts like for example. I live in California Linnea. Most likely the increase of forest fires is part of that or received the Pine Beatles in Canada for example can shave slightly shifting ecosystems making the winters less severe and then peice takeover more so there are some indications of obviously coral reefs no not being as productive so they are. They are some indications of productivity loss but overall since agriculturalists still increasing intensification the by capacities still seems to be going got so it'd be see all these kinds of different trends in the long run or long run. I mean if really moved to a word with much more severe climate impact. There's quite too high likelihood that the productivity of agriculture <hes> would not be as High N- defending. Let's say one hundred years from now than it is right now and we are expecting much higher population so the squeezes are inevitable. I guess related to this. How would you say policymakers? <music> are paying attention to all of these signs of shrinking diminishing acities. I mean the all kinds of policymaker some pay a lot of attention and some much less I mean you've probably heard two weeks ago. The pope invited all the policymakers but C._E._O.'s does of of oil companies to come to the Vatican and talk about having decarbonised and then even even CEOS from <hes> B._p.. And others staggering how's your mission still go up. I mean so he's got interesting. Conversation Asian too good to have expected even ten years ago that the pope invites the C._E._o.. C._O._O. is major companies and investment funds to to really look at this issue. I mean that's that's an indication China for example China. Is We always think it's their political system. It's more I think that Chinese elite <hes> more of them are engineers or physically train. Scientists appreciate physics a little bit more than the West and they just recognize is that they're resource demand compared to what they have available themselves is out of balance and they react in two ways one is to say we need to build more roads and train lines to get resources to us but they also recognize the word is too small overall and the second thing is that they have what they call ecological civilization <hes> the recognition that somehow in the end like the needs to be nature is gonNA limiting factor they call it balance harmony with nature that we need to build a civilization that can live within the means of nature can supply so they recognize that how aggressively are the implementing it. It's hard to save from the outside. What is quite stunning is that China has about Donald is resource demand manned over the last fifteen years in total and I need it per capita because per capita is not going up so much pap cap it is not going up so much that's quite stunning and even more stunning is in the last three for years? They started plateau like from a very rapid upswing the start plateau and I think it's not just economic downturn because they still have relatively rapid expansion economically <hes> but they start to realize that they have to get on a different from track so China is one example. Is that enough. I'm not sure I think they would have probably to act much much more rapidly now takes I think it's over three and a half China's to support China. That's about the ratio three point seven. I think he's the number three point. Seven China's it takes to support China and China is about a quarter of the word population so so so the ratio is not sustainable obviously but they're discussing it actively and it's surprising little attention pay. I mean it's funny to countries. I know of may be more have a ministry gets called Ministry of transition and these were formerly the Environment Ministries of Spain and of France but I would say I want the ministries of environment be called ministries of continuity of transition. I want the finance ministries to be called Ministry of transition then. I believe it but if we call environment ministry administrative position than the others keep on track. It's not a good sign is the biggest hurdle in our path keeping us from becoming becoming this sustainable society over the long haul. It's a good question and I think the biggest heard list that we don't ask ourselves with the biggest hood Liz you'd academically have y'all get narrow soapbox and tell about our solutions and they don't really relate to what the biggest hurdle might be an hour research programmes should go further and got to find out more deliberately what he's biggest hurdles might be you know and and really test hypotheses now my hypothesis at this point. Is that particularly people with decision power. Don't believe that resolving the overshoot problem has anything to do with it or success that their own success does not depend on resolving this problem they have skin into game mm-hmm they believe and that's so interesting to have his shifting. That's leading with the new voices particularly younger voices often associated with greater tune burke from from Sweden. She speaks from escaping into game in perspective when I was a totally different language he says you are wrecking my life. I don't expect anything from you old people because you haven't done anything and the fact that you're listening to me. Just tells me the are totally out to lunch because you should listen to the scientists by listening to a sixteen year old girl who knows nothing comparatively Roger shows how lost we are. I don't trust you know so it's a different different language that that that evokes the idea of off skin into game and I just decided to chat with a friend of mine in Switzerland he went to confirmation parties confirmation. The Protestant Church means leg got sixteen reconfirmed that you want to be part of the Church and so they celebrate these young people and so what was the big topic that came up all about climate change for the young people and for the minister and with the minister said my friend was shaking his head. Oh my God like these old people that don't get it and all the young people they so clear the nude has to happen. They said Yeah. I don't eat sausages anymore because there's not a good but it's not about individual action. We have to have policy shifts. That's what people say to sixteen year old and the old folks do Oh my God do complicated. We don't stand. I think the key really is to bring it down to one concept. We lack the sense of skin in the game to answer I think would you say the data suggests we need to be making awful sacrifices or is it suggesting that we actually have an opportunity to turn things around both in some ways the biggest sacrifices will oh come on turn things around. I mean I'm I'm just taking oaken as an example because Zip Progressive City was led by <hes> Jerry Brown earlier who had the idea of vertical suburbs rather than horizontal suburbs and we are starting to see the impact of his his vision foldout. We've had now we have a very progressive mayor as well Progressive Consul Progressive Wonderful and still even Progressive City like Oakland continues to rebuild the past so we build huge buildings that are enormously fossil fuel dependent focused on card transportation even though they're close to public transportation so we continue destroy ourselves so people in Oakland. Oh who are you have a progressive city government and nobody is Oh my God we're destroying our own city by adding assets to our city that will in the end hurt us us they will not be valuable in the future and the will lose value at the time and economies week and I'm just using Oakland because it's probably one of the more progressive cities that tries to do things right you know and so in some level to be provocative quite happy that MS Pelosi and Mr Trump and unable to get along because both have view of building infrastructure that is just extending to nineteen fifties to put them on steroids to extend the highways to rebuild bridges rather than to build economy that we need and so not even the opposition here or the broader view has an idea of what we actually need to be successful. It'd be don't understand that sustainability success at the same word that's one of the biggest the greatest takeaways from that book I think this New Book and in fact it makes me want to give a copy to you know not just members of Congress and the Senate but to the local city council numbers and county commissioners you do a wonderful job of talking to the people who are making the decisions is on the ground about what kind of infrastructure investments might be made. It's the strangest thing we work for some years with the financial industry and then realized that very slow as well to ran out of Stephen and the strangest thing I I heard from the finance industry is the following over and over again around the word does it. Oh yeah these issues like overshoot there too so slow you know we just didn't get out when when it gets bad which is so strange because on average nobody can get out you can get out of the market. If somebody else buys your assets otherwise you cannot get out and then somebody else has the risk so as society somehow how somewhere somebody will get the haircut so so eater if the finance industry so sure they can get out and somehow they can socialize losses then we have a huge kind of regulatory problem. That's nothing is systemically off track or they live in delusion because as I said you can't beat math that easily so surprised me and I've never got a good answer quite a story. It makes me want to ask you where your investments are. I can talk about that as well in the end. It's I just saw the News Time magazine with into you without president is my life is a bet and I think in some ways my life to it's about betting thought about believing so the bad religion could've saying okay. Do you believe in climate change or not but understanding our physical context gives us much more insight right in <hes> which assets may gain value in which ones won't in the long run which makes us Moreau Bust and not and supplies pretty straightforward. I mean is city. I mean the question that'd be. We'll have to move to regenerative economy. Is it obvious ones not even a question. There's no way out even if we WANNA burn every loss litter of petrol you know in in the end we'll have to be regenerative future the only questions how quickly on get there if we ought go slowly we will wreck so much of our by capacity that the budget left in the end will be very very slim. If we act fast or it may be more painful in the Short Rodney may think but the budget leftover would be just dramatically larger you know so it's up to us to choose how we want to invest so so does it predictable future and given that predictable future you can look at your asset base and say okay to what extent will my assets worked well in this kind of a future or or won't work well so it's not that complicated Indian. Wow goodness had a better myself obviously but that's why I mean you're you. We try to talk a lot on the growth busters podcast about ways that we can change our own individual behavior on. I happen to think it's important but I want to give you a chance to tell me I'm full of Baloney Baloney. This all action make a difference settled in the end. It's all about individual actions but if we think we can shift the word by enticing people so behavior change. I think there's actually this strange paradox that be have encountered lost years and it's not it's not more and more psychological research showing it but if we force people's moral Merrill Suasion to do the right thing. This is funny phenomenon happening that is similar to the rebound effect. I don't know if familiar with the rebound effect that'd be have started with the rebound effect perfect. That's kind of people can't imagine and economists called the Jevons in eighteen sixty five had to make some money and dried the book and he wrote it about the coal question recognizing that the U._k.. was using coal at the rate that he thought thought would not be able to be sustained and what he said. In a book was quite interesting he said it's a confusion of ideas to believe that more efficient machines will reduce our resource consumption because the more efficient machines become the more they will be used news and the more the aggregate demand will be like in the beginning we had steam engines that they could just be used as closer to mind because they're so inefficient but they could pump the water out of the mind dynasty mish machines with more efficient. You could put them on a train. You could make locomotive dentistry industry machines would get even more efficient finding with planes you could have jets on the plane. USABILITY of fossil fuels increases over time so it's kind of this kind of the rebound effect that the efficiency gains if not somehow taxed away or or redirected tend to increase our ability to do things and there's a similar phenomenon with individual action. It's called moral licensing the idea that if we have tried to do something good okay. Let's save a little bit of water. Aw I have a net brush my teeth it takes so much mind space then you're not as good saving electricity or or or looking after our waste if you do it just from a perspective of I can only do so much good. That's my budget for doing good and so focusing kind of trying to convince people to be kind of to work hard on some saying that they don't really kind of fully believe themselves. You can only get so far so the contradiction that actually psychological research shows that could could be like a vaccination effect that by forcing people to do something they lose the big picture so I think the pathway that we need to go is quite a different one. We need I there's to fall in love with the future we want and then once that love is part of our identity. We Act quite obviously in that direction you know identities a big driver can be used for good or bad but for example as a parent an identity Eddie disappeared en paired would say I don't sell my child. No that's not a cost-benefit question. Oh how much how much would that sell my child. This is clearly like Oh as a parent I even held by the parents you know so identities are very a strong force so if our identity tells us oh clearly planet here I mean I live on this planet. Clearly A to be successful wants to stability obviously then all the actions fall in place much much more easily you know like for example I bicycle to work and I would do it even if it took more resources because I love it so so it has to be built into your life in a way this is the new normal that's what it is and then you don't think think about it if you have to think about every action there's only so much brain power we have you know Connie months booker thinking slow thinking fast and so it's basically translating sustainability into thinking fast our brain I think or our reptilian brain thinks about ten thousand times faster than arrogant of higher ignition so so as long as a Reptilian brain does not understand sustainability deeply and that's all trae. It's not it's not a D._N._A.. eneko questions old trained. We're not moving to see that with ministers for example if administer. Here's if she hears that unemployment is up you see her profusely sweat it has like sweat stains and the clothes and coming down her forehead forehead unemployment's up. Oh my God I mean cannot sleep turns into us in our bad. You know so so I mean that's like a physical reaction. If you say your country uses four times more than what your country regenerates I've seen <hes> so what knows what and that's now and it could be sweat inducing if we if we understood the implications it's just that the translation from thinking slow to thinking fast hasn't happened and be deeply. I I mean we still sending students to schools. I think effect could accuse one part of sector of society most. It's probably the academic sector how we under prepare people today for what's going to come <hes> it's ridiculous people borne after nineteen eighty five will be under sixty five in two thousand fifty. Anybody can calculate that and according to Perry for example we have to be out of fossil fuel use way before twenty fifty. I mean during that life work time doing their work time. They have to lead transition more rapid more profound than the IPHONE was for the phones but that for the entire economy me you know so that's kind of what we need to do and utterly utterly unprepared and that's what I see even talk to students of environmental signs the level of understanding they have had transition needs to happen quickly what they can do it. The opportunities attuned our stunning to me. That makes me very excited about what we're going to talk about during the next to our man and that was a really nice way to tell me I'm fully Bologna to over Erica any good. We haven't even started sorry I guess yeah I mean I am one of those people born after nineteen eighty five concerning but I feel so privilege to be having this interview with you methods and thank you for taking the time to speak Avon. I I guess twenty-fifty comes around. We are expecting to be at over nine billion by think about that. A lot thought and I guess just last thoughts on Outta we approach this concept of growing population and how do we really shrink our ecological footprints and wonderful. It's a very good question what all the options we categorize options into five big areas because we have five fingers and like thumb. There's like one goes into different direction so the thumb start with that is how to help earth to be healthy means of regenerative practices and agriculture and and conservation etcetera and for the demand side how do build our cities this because the way we build them that defines how we live. How do we power them? How much energy takes to run them but also how we generate power to use coal or solar? The third one is is how do we feed ourselves now. Food production us about half the planets by capacity and then the fourth one is the one you mentioned is how many are if you're doubled as many you can calculate quite easily. They would only be half as much planet per person you know so it's not so complicated complicate eater over the long haul. I mean maybe looked back even sixty years the biggest most significant factor of all has been how many people we are overall so he doesn't make big changes from one year to next but then accumulative way. It has has a very very big wait now. The good news is that looking at the demographic side. We know how to shift those tendencies is not done through controlled actually backfires ars in stunned by empowering women but making opportunities better for women equal rights for everybody. I access to family planning. They're still I hear the United States half of the pregnancy still are surprised sometimes a positive sometimes as a negative but at the half the pregnancy is still surprised to people and so there there's a big choice and we just did a calculation. I mean this some other factors that play a role but we just a rough calculation to get demographic trends right now. If today we adopted fertility rates of Spain Portugal or Italy today we would be back to four billion people by the end of the century and I've been to Spain Portugal and Italy and he's still see children play into street. It's going to pleasant places and then there's nobody telling them to have some families. That just happens that way so it's not like any control mechanism extra they tried to increase the population so as not able to but anyhow so if that was replicated wordwide would have less than four billion people by the end of the century which would give much more budgets for paying predication and healthcare. It's at truffle young on people give young people that much much better opportunity for the future <hes> reversely. I think the median run goes to eleven billion and the operation I think goes to sixteen billion even still students slight decline tillery we have seen declines. Fertility is not that that we haven't seen progress but the decline has been far far too slow and so we underestimate the significance of demographic transitions and and it's not so much that these two tragedy for hours hours than for for the population themselves like India in Africa they were about one hundred fifty million people tune of nineteen hundred I think roughly then now about a billion and projected to be about four billion. I don't know how that's physically possible by the end of this century and that's just I mean the misery that will generate four people locally <hes> is just another by the blame game is about if we want if we feel compassion and love for the next generation if you want our children children to have a great lives I mean investing and women equal rights and making sure family planning it's available is just fundamental and if you look even in international development budget how little it spent on women empowerment permanent family planning and these aspect it's staggering how little it is and how we ignore the strands because we think it's so difficult to talk about while and then by not talking about it we just gotTa leave it to racist. Conversations is not a bad racism races. It's a bad love for the next generation. Well thank you. Thank you so much for your time and this great book will include Lincoln the show notes for ecological footprint. You can go preorder the book today. I know you. You're listening to this. You can't wait to get the book thank you Dave. Noriega was a pleasure. Thank you okay Erica. What struck you as really important and memorable from that conversation? What's your takeaway? Seventy percent of the world's people are living thing in poverty and it's not necessarily us in the United States in fact living in a I wanna stay away from saying developed I think in the Bucky he talks about just distinguishing between developed and developing that is like not descriptive grip tive and it's not really helpful to differentiate countries in that way but I think just living in the U._S.. I'll use us as an example but just living in the U._S.. Sort of shields us from really experiencing the effects of overshoot and so when we talk about things like ecological footprint and living more sustainably I think a lot of people already think that they are because they don't see all of the effects economic mkx breakdown poverty severe climate change in the way that a lot of other nations around the world do experience on a daily basis in other opened the refrigerator and there's beer in the right as we talked about yeah so I get that all the tight while there's really nothing wrong Erica. Why are you so angry about this or otherwise concerned while because it matters I don't know how to say it and I think that's sort of another thing is that we can present people with all this data and Statistics Statistics and even go as far as like showing pictures? I think people are just visual men showing them pictures of you know under deserve nations around the world but I don't think it really hits people unfortunately until it is directly affecting adding them and I think another part of the book that Mothers Brings Up is that the inconvenient truth and how that was just sort of a mistake in discussing climates because because people don't think that it's their own personal problem they look at it as something it's well. This is not affecting me personally. It's affecting other people so I'm not going to really take responsibility or care about this but he Steve Thankfully Says No. This is something that equally affects all of us on this planet czar home. I think those were the major takeaways from the book and the conversation. I felt a little bit guilty that I didn't follow oh up on something that he mentioned what might be the most critical number that he would give us today and you know we just had so many questions we wanted to ask him. I just moved onto the next question and this was where he told us that seventy percent of the world's people today live in countries that are both thin ecological deficit and have income below the world average. They don't have the money to buy themselves out of the squeeze he said been thinking about that a little bit and it's interesting that Africa is just as continents go it's. Supporters Continent and yet they most African nations are ecological deficit today and the there's two things we no one is that the people of Africa want to live better lives and they certainly I think are entitled to Number Two the African Konin is expected to add two billion people to its population the rest of this century and if they're already an ecological deficit that tells me one wow it was pretty unlikely that it's GonNa be able to add those people. If you add those people we're going to have to have a big farm aid concert every day three hundred sixty five days a year to raise the money to put food on ships to send to Africa and we're not gonNA have the money or the food to do that. I mean it's just our future. World isn't a world where we have that luxury like we've seen in the past we cannot just be good Samaritans and find a way to feed an extra two billion people on the continent of Africa. It's not going to happen and just the idea of if all people living on the continent of Africa if we could snap our fingers tomorrow they could live the lifestyle that you are living today. In the United States Erica well there would be game over there too because the continent couldn't support that it can't support the number of people on the continent today living the pretty impoverished lifestyles they are now so we didn't really follow up without so I felt like the very least I wanted to Kinda a highlight that and accentuate that and make sure that no-one missed that message one other thing that I thought was pretty interesting in that was that was pretty clearly unimpressed with bureaucrats. I don't think you were surprised I wouldn't supplies but it was Kinda fun here articulate that in fact he had a really great line. He said most governments are run by people in the social sciences so we operate as if there is no time or space or matter you know in the U._S.. US Today we do that on steroids but it's kind of interesting is true that you know it's really challenging to get bureaucrats to put the priority where it really needs to be about getting back into sustainable balance you would think by now they would be working together there to come up with more better solutions but yeah that's pretty funny. I'm glad that he said that all opinion eight here. I think a big part of the problem is that we have this global addiction and obsession with economic growth so our allegiance to economic growth stands in the way of doing what science tells us to do which is that. We really ought to be slimming down our ecological footprint but everybody's got their eye on G._D._p.. Ian How fast G._D._p.. is growing that you know living sustainably does not boost your G._D._p.. Now let's be honest doesn't and but that's okay well part of the problem. Too is people don't think about success us as equating to sustainability and it is it. It's the same thing when you hear somebody say we'll my goal. In life is to secure the best paying jobs so that I can purchase the biggest house so that I can afford my five children so that I can afford my cars and all these riches that somehow socially became the expectation for us to achieve success in today's world and it's not sustainable if that was everybody's perception of what success is defined as than we would see earth overshoot day coming a lot sooner than July twenty ninth on one of the things. I think Marta said in relation to that when we were talking about that he said we need to fall in love with the future we want. I thought that was good advice circling back to the bureaucrats I asked him what's the biggest hurdle does keeping us from becoming a sustainable society and I just loved his answer when he said that the biggest hurdle is we don't ask ourselves what the biggest SORTA list so. I felt proud of myself for asking and then this is also related to the success to is and that he has his theory that people empowered don't equate solving this problem with their success so he said relaxed this sense of having skin in the game and I think that's kind of the short termism that is that you know you have to run for reelection in two years or for years or six years as the case may be depending on what office you hold an you know. You're too focused on that. You have to deliver uh better lives next year. Not a livable hospitable survivable wonderful planet in twenty five years or fifty years another thing on my list of major takeaways is that the way I would put it is that we misdiagnosed no simply misinterpret. Nobody ever dies from overshoot instead they die from its symptoms. Economic Breakdowns Poverty Wars pandemics natural disasters heat heat waves that kind of stuff and so we end up focusing on on all those symptoms and missing the underlying root cause which is overshoot. Hey and it doesn't all happen at one time. That's another thing to think about. Is it sort of happens gradually so if you're not paying attention and you just kind of thank it is part of life and it's part of the circle of life that we're all supposed to experience these things in you're probably not going to do anything about it and then another interesting take away from me was that modest told us that were under preparing people today for what is to come and I think he's talking about the educational system but probably in general as well but I think that just kind of connects to the denial denial we're trying to kind of correct that with the growth busters podcasts. We're trying to prepare people for what is to come but there are so many things stopping swing pretty well rundown shopping list of reasons why we aren't preparing people for for what is to come and valuable. This is another little gem that I think we don't WANNA lose track of and that is that he thinks it's important how fast we get back into sustainable balance. He pointed out that if we take a long time to get back into sustainable balance then we won't have very much biocapacity left to work with because we will have diminished the earth's biocapacity where damaging it right now. That's how we're managing and to live in in overshoot. We're borrowing from the planets future capacity in order to support our level of overshoot today so for takes us to longtime to fix that then we have a crippled planet to work with if we can get back into into balance more quickly than we've got a bigger budget of biocapacity we have a healthier planet and we can have better lives sooner better living through chemistry yeah <hes> and I think <hes> just sort of like adding to that as we continue to borrow from other nations and all of our Social Dumping and everything that we do you is just sort of breeding all these injustices to these other countries that are experiencing these effects firsthand <hes> we're not and we should be setting that example Lee are privileged in a way that a lot of these nations are not just historically. We are privileged in just environmentally being where we're at we have had that privilege and we should know how to use that but we don't were breeding injustices nervous true will once you dig again to <hes> all of the great data at <hes> at the websites that we're going to give you links to in the show of course you'll discover as you suspect that <hes> the people in the overdeveloped world our ecological footprint you know as massive you know we are the worst offenders obviously the United States. I know a year ago. The data suggested that if everyone on the planet lived like the average North American does that we would need five earth's that were five lifetimes and over she were probably a little bit more than that this year so we're doing way more than our share of damage and a lot of people who have good hearts like to point out that the people who are living on the margin are really going into suffer but we're GONNA suffer. Did you happen to measure your carbon footprint or your ecological I did and that's one of the most important links that we've got on the show notes for you is a footprint calculator and there are a few of them out there and we're giving giving you the link to the calculator that global footprint network has designed because we just happen to have a lot of respect for the work that global footprint network is doing so. I think I put it off and I put it off. I hadn't done it in a few years but I knew for this conversation precision Erica that I was gonna need to be able to report to you how poorly I did same so you did it high did do it. Did you feel as through it you thinking and feeling well. I've already made the decision vision to never bring life into the planet so I kind of went in a little shelling a little slightly arrogant about my footprint. I thought well I'm going to have as one out there. There's nothing more that I can do. That's not true I also do enjoy hot wings and burgers every now and then and if everybody lived the way that I lived we would need Oh. I don't know if I want to say it out loud. I'm betting that you're going to look better than I do three point four earth. Oh my goodness so that you beat just barely three point three. I met three point three years but in all fairness in the calculator doesn't ask you how many children you've conceived or whether you're planning to brace children right so it's not giving you credit. Maybe really need to ask much about that. That's probably really complicated to figure out a way to build that into this calculator because that's huge everything yeah you bring another life into this world. You've gotta take significant amount of responsibility for that footprint and especially if that life than brings another life or a couple of lies is into the world you've kind of started a chain-reaction. We've talked about and other episodes but there are scientists who try to come up with the best approximation of how to give credit for making the total ecological footprint of human civilization bigger. I mean that's a whole person. One person can only do so much to slim up their life and reduce their footprint. You're you're still a person you still have needs for shelter transportation food and all those things but I think what killed me was probably the air travel. I'm trying to do less and less of it but I can't brag like some people cannon on and say I've given it up completely. I haven't yet done that but you travel with a mission. You know you can forgive me a little bit for that but I've been on an airplane for one vacation this year reluctantly guiltily <music> and every now and then there are family needs that Pajan an airplane the other thing that killed me I think was and I think a little bit unfairly was the size of the House that I live in and you probably fared really well in that department congratulations to view Erica my problem -eckognize over this a lot but I married into a huge house and in fact I'm embarrassed when people who are in no are really into sustainable living when they come over here. I'm embarrassed. I feel like I have to explain what's going on here over the seven and a half years that I've been in this marriage I've been trying to gently get us into the mode where we might be ready to downsize by reached an interesting point just last week where I'm not going to feel guilty about it as I used to and that is because we number one we make as good we make very good use of the space in some ways like we've created this podcasting studio and we make that available to a Lotta people who are doing podcasts about good subjects. It's also been a film studio where we've filmed some really cool and useful youtube videos for the growth busters youtube channel. That's our editing sweet as as well and we do not air conditioned the house we do not have an air conditioner and we heat very little of the house and I was thinking if I were to convince my wife tomorrow that we should downsize move out the family that moves into this house. The first thing they're going to do is put in air conditioning he so by staying here in place. We are keeping this house from being air-conditioned so I think that's a good thing I agree so I think I got unfairly dinged a little bit for living in an above average size house so Sumi. I'm confessing right here a living in a tiny house. It's okay they do say <hes> happy. Wife is a happy life right yeah. You're in a relationship you gotta decide. How principled are you? Are you going to tell somebody you know what I can't date you like Mary you because you are not trying to save the planet. I really want to recommend to everyone that they do. The calculator and I think it's real value is pay attention to the questions and your answers and I think that can help give you some ideas for what you might WanNa try to do to be a better citizen a planet earth you might come up with a goal of something you WanNa do so that you wanna take this test. Calculate your ecological footprint again in two months or six months or a year and be determined for it to be smaller when you do that yeah. It's kind of fun. It's kind of fun when you look at it that way right people like to measure all sorts of things. They're steps their calories. <hes> why not measure your footprint. That's actually good for everybody circling back but I really you want to just pay you on the back and thank you for the last question you asked and that was you asked about the role of population in ecological footprint in overshoot and I think that opened the door for mattis to give a really elegant dancer Really Really Smart Answer. I thought I'm really glad I asked that question to before he left. I was like a one more question you guys all probably no. I am interested in like social mechanisms that are behind reproductive decision making and as much as we like to talk about one child lasts and family at the it's easy to talk about it. It's even easy for people to agree with you as you're talking about this while all having one child less could actually be a really great positive thing for not just our family in not just our budget but for the planet as a whole but it's not so easy to actually do which is why I am very interested in studying those social factors involved and kind on of demystifying this assumption that we're all supposed to have as many children as we want. I never believed that to be true and I very much today do not so it was really important for me to ask that last. Ask question and it's sort of the aspect of overshoot that gets overlooked more often than not which is really upsetting so I'm glad that he did answer and just as a reminder be just recommended that we adopt a fertility rates of some of these other countries like Spain Portugal set of what we are currently doing yeah so there to those journalists out there who are busy writing stories today about the fact that we've got to cut our beef consumption in half so that we can in the point nine billion people modest Walker Naga just gave you another solution. You know we could have world population beef fourbillion instead of eleven billion about that Burgers for everyone. I'd still WANNA cut back on a little bit anyway. I really wanted to discuss this with him and I really want to discuss it with you but I really think we need to be. Make an appointment to do this on another episode cut. I really WANNA explorer at some point right. What is fair for somebody's ecological footprint? If I want to be a moral person who's got a really good true north on my moral compass. Do I need to make sure that my ecological footprint is at or below the average per person by capacity of the entire planet or at or below the average per person biocapacity of my country. Do we have an obligation to be living within our means in the nation that we we just got lucky enough to be born in or do we have an obligation to not be using any more than you know dividing the whole biocapacity of the planet today by seven point seven billion people as that really what you're biocapacity budget should be you walk. Inaugural has co written this new book ecological footprint managing our biocapacity budget that will be published on September third of two thousand nineteen so as we have this discussion and publish this podcast it is not yet available to have in your hot little hands although you can go ahead and pre-order it now if you want so look for the link in the show notes for that so here we are with a world record linked growth busters podcast already and we're not go on for much longer at all mainly because we're going to devote another entire episode to this subject. This is our treat for you a special gift. We thought that overshoot was important enough. Subject the subject of the a century really <hes> that we produced one hour radio special about it as called welcome to overshoot have a nice day and it's part of this conversation Earth Radio Series that I produced in hosted a couple of years ago. Haven't I haven't been creating any new episodes in two years because there weren't enough hours in the day and they're certainly wasn't enough money in the budget to hire the staff that would be needed in order for us to crank out a new episode every week. We just couldn't do it so we sort of put at that into idol but promised that we would produce a special every now in that and so we did we completed this one hour special called welcome to have a nice day. Hopefully some radio stations path already got that into their program scheduled for the week leading up to Earth overshoot day but we're GonNa make that available to you as just a bonus episode of the growth busters podcasts so right after we publish this great interview with Marches Walker Novel and insightful commentary by Erica and Dave and we will turn around and we'll publish this conversation or a special as an bonus episode of growth busters and I think you'll find it interesting and it could be there was one episode just one out of the <hes> dozens of episodes that we've produced already that you were going to give to your graduating high school senior or to your best friend or to your mayor or to the next president end of the United States or the next prime minister of Great Britain are just about anybody I mean that would be a could be the most important podcast episode ever made. Couldn't it yeah by being a little cockney not at all. I'm definitely Gannett looking forward to sharing the buck. I plan on getting a copy pre-ordered very soon. WanNa share a link of where we can preorder the book as well Yep go to the show notes for that excellent so just Kinda wrap up this episode. I think the big question is stealing these words. I think straight from the book will this process simply continue or will we manage to reverse the trend. It's a giant Kandic challenge and the answer is going Debbie in how we build cities how we power ourselves how we feed ourselves and how many of us there are all these aspects of our behavior. That's all going to determine whether we just continue sliding getting deeper and deeper into overshoot or whether we find a way to reverse that trajectory so start the conversation right to us. If you have any questions about it we're always happy to hear from our listeners and always happy happy to support you in starting the conversation and moving forward sufficient to check to show notes for important links go to that calculator and figure out what your carbon footprint is. Let us know what it is. What thought that gave you and it's not new years but there's no time like the president to adopt some kind of a resolution too skinny up your life a little bit and shrink your footprint? We'd love to hear about your adventures. In embracing the joy of sustainable living head over to growth busters dot dot org to explore these issues more deeply and I really want to encourage you to subscribe to the growth busters podcast. If you haven't already done cost you any money and that way you will miss an episode and then finally Erica. Let me do one more great quote from this book this new book coming out September third. These are the last words out of my mouth for this episode. The number one rule for the scenarios is one planet living as far as we know there is only this one planet in human reach able to produce chocolate. Let's make the most of it life is meant to be wonderful and all human beings ought to have a chance to thrive and live with dignity the on this earth he man something to be jazz but the cost up they think bigger is better.
Don't Cut Those Trees Big Food Might Be Watching
"Brazilian scientists say the destruction of the country's forests has increased sharply this year. Those forests often are cleared to grow food. Many big food companies have pledged to stop this. N._p._R.'s is Dan Charles says. Some of those companies are watching their suppliers are doing from space. MONDELEZ international may not be a household name but its products are with a company that makes thanks Oreo. Cookies and Triscuit and wheat thins for example. This is Jonathan Hora. The company's director of Global Sustainability we make snacks debate nice things tweet. I'll purpose purpose snacky made right. He says they WANNA make their snacks. The right way to without heating up the planet so the company decided to measure its greenhouse gas emissions and it realized most so then we're not coming from factories or trucks is actually the carbon emissions that are linked to deforestation or forests being cut down in order to produce raw materials else that we use this ingredients in our products like palm oil from plantations in Indonesia a few years ago. Monday's promised to stop it suppliers from cutting down trees. Dozens of food companies made the same promise here's Lewis Morale from the World Resources Institute an environmental group Walmart and McDonalds. All the major brands have made those commitments. They promised to get it done by twenty twenty but most of them are not. GonNa make their deadline turns out. It's hard to do so. Lewis Morale and his colleagues stepped in and created a new online tool for companies to use including Mondays. They call it. Global Forest Watch pro so the first thing you need to do it's actually to log into the system Morales in Brazil. I'm in Washington D._C.. But with the miracle of skype and computer screen sharing he can show me exactly how it works. I see an image of the globe it shows which areas are covered by trees which is kind of the Google maps of for us a satellite scans the entire globe every weakened updates this map so you can tell if trees disappear from one week to the next another satellite monitors the globe for fires every day the key innovation. -Ation here is that the computer is doing that work for US constantly looking at those images as they're being taken to identify if something changed on the cover if there is a fire that is happening area and then Morales shows me how you can use this to monitor specific farms so in this case. You're just let me just give you an example so imploded cattle farms in Brazil. I see a bunch of rectangles and other shapes on this one part of Brazil. Those are real farms. He got this information from a public like database of landownership in Brazil with a few mouse clicks. We see how much of each farm is covered with trees and also how that's changed. He points out one and forty thousand Acre farm half of it's covered in forests but fifteen years ago we see the whole thing was forest resuming closer. We can see exactly where the trees disappeared appeared so you can see here that almost all the tree cover loss within his region actually happened with this specific farm here and specifically within the borders of that farm so that was intentional. Attention that wasn't just a wildfire that that'll be section. If a company makes a list of its suppliers like this the tool will send an alert whenever it detects deforestation forestation right there so that's the tool Jonathan Karl from Mondelez international says his company's already using it. I think it's actually extremely important because the tool enables you to understand what's actually happening in real time but the really hard part is companies have to figure out exactly where their suppliers are. Mondays is doing that with cocoa farms as of the end of twenty eighteen. We'd mapped around ninety three thousand coca femmes in Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire which of the two the most important sources cocoa supply chain. This is easier to do when companies buy food directly from local producers they often do cocoa and palm oil oil but in other cases they don't farmers who raise cattle may sell them to a local slaughterhouse not McDonalds but morale from the World Resources Institute says is the beauty of this new online tool is it's so cheap and easy to use even local slaughterhouses can use it and they have convinced a slaughterhouse in Paraguay to sign up for an account. Dan Charles N._p._R..
Don't Cut Those Trees Big Food Might Be Watching
"This message comes from N._P._R.. Sponsor xfinity some things are slow like snail races. Other things are fast like xfinity X. by get fast speeds. Even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity DOT COM restrictions apply Brazilian scientists say the destruction of the country's forest has increased sharply this year. Those forests often are cleared to grow food many big food companies have pledged to stop this. N._p._R.'s Dan Charles says some of those companies are watching what their suppliers are doing from space Mondelez international may not be a household name but its products are with a company that makes oreo Cookies and Triscuit and wheat thins for example. This is Jonathan Karl Companies Director of Global Sustainability. We make snacks debate nice things tweet. I'll L. purpose a snacky made right. He says they WANNA make their snacks the right way to without heating up the planet so the company decided to measure its greenhouse gas emissions and Most of them were not coming from factories. Trucks is actually the carbon emissions that are linked to deforestation or forests being cut down in order to produce raw materials that we use as ingredients in products like palm oil from plantations in Indonesia a few years ago. Monday's promised to stop it suppliers from cutting down trees these dozens of food companies made the same promise here's Lewis Merrell from the World Resources Institute and Environmental Group Walmart and McDonalds all off the major brands have made commitments. They promised to get it done by twenty twenty but most of them are not. GonNa make their deadline turns out. It's hard to do so Lewis Morale Rao and his colleague stepped in and created a new online tool for companies to use including Mondays. They call it. Global Forest Watch pro so the first so you need to do. It's actually to log into the system. I'm Morales in Brazil. I'm in Washington D._C.. But with the miracle of skype and computer screen sharing he can show me exactly exactly how it works. I see an image of the globe it shows which areas are covered by trees which is kind of Google maps of for us. A satellite scans the entire globe. Every week and updates this map so you can tell if trees disappear from one week to the next another satellite monitors the globe for fires every day. The key innovation here is that the computer is doing that work for US constantly looking at those images as they're being taken to identify if something changed on the cover covert if there is a fire that is happening in that area and then Morell shows me how you can use this to monitor specific farms so in this case. You're just let me just give you an example also applauded Trinidad you cattle farms in Brazil. I see a bunch of rectangles and other shapes on this one part of Brazil. Those are real forms. He got this information from a a public database of landownership Brazil with a few mouse clicks. We see how much of each farm is covered with trees and also how that's changed. He points out one forty thousand. Acre farm half of it's covered in forests but fifteen years ago we see the whole thing was forest resuming closer. We can see exactly where the trees disappeared so you can see here that almost all the tree cover loss within his region actually happened with this specific farm here and specifically within the borders of that farm so that. It was intentional. That wasn't just a wildfire. That'll be deception if a company makes a list of its suppliers like this the tool will send an alert whenever it detects deforestation right there so that's the tool Jonathan Karl from Mondelez international says his company's already using it. I think it's actually extremely important because us. The tool enables you to understand what's actually happening in real time but the really hard part is companies have to figure out exactly where their suppliers are are Mondays is doing that with cocoa farms as of the end of twenty eighteen we'd mapped around ninety three thousand coca foams in Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire which of the two do most important sources of cocoa in supply chain. This is easier to do when companies buy food directly from local producers they often do with cocoa and palm palm oil but in other cases they don't farmers who raise cattle may sell them to a local slaughterhouse not McDonalds but morale from the world resources institute. The suit says the beauty of this new online tool is it's so cheap and easy to use even local slaughterhouses can use it and they have convinced a slaughterhouse in Paraguay to sign up for an account. Dan Charles N._p._R..
U.N. Report Says World Is 'Not Doing Enough' When It Comes To Climate Change
"It's hard not to sound like a broken record when it comes to climate change. Here's what the UN said in a new report out today. The world is not doing enough. We have have to learn from our procrastination. We cannot afford to fail those three statements and yet according to the report countries are failing failing to cut greenhouse house gas emissions and thereby putting us on a path to climate catastrophe is just the latest of many dire predictions from the UN's climate scientists in recent years. And to help us make sense of it. We're joined now by Kelly Levin of the World Resources Institute Global Climate Program. Welcome thank you so much. So what's Today's Today's the two thousand nine hundred emissions gap reports this annual report. And I understand that you've been the lead author on it in previous years. Why is this report important? Shore sure so what we know. Is that the emissions gap. which is this gap between where emissions are headed and where they need to be to avoid the worst climate change impacts? It is large by twenty thirty in just ten years. We have to cut in half our emissions to meet the temperature targets of the Paris Agreement. And unfortunately we they've delayed action significantly so greater cuts are going to be required longer. That action is delayed and while some countries are on attract to meet their emission reduction targets. Many still are not president. Trump of course has started the process of pulling the US out of the Paris accord but for other countries do reports like at this one that we're talking about today do they have any impact does public shaming. Actually work is what I'm trying to ask. Yeah no it's a great question. I mean we certainly can add this report report the pile of reports that are clear calls to action. I think the timing of this is important because countries are invited under the Paris agreement to up their commitments by the end of next year by the end of twenty twenty so this is critical because we need to take stock of where we are where we need to be input mounting pressure on governments to up their commitments. Well what about for the general public. I mean how effective are reports like these in grabbing people's attention engine and changing their daily behaviors. I think that we certainly have a public. That is waking up to the climate change impacts around them as well as the lack of action. There is a growing demand for action and climate justice around the world and if you think about the youth protests right after the climate summit with seven million people across one hundred and eighty five countries to protest the lack of government action I think increasingly we will hopefully see some more action action. I'm curious about the choice of language when trying to alert the public about the urgency of this problem used for example of the word fail in this particular. The report countries collectively failed to stop the growth in global emissions. It reminds me of Greta. Gunzburg's emotional speech at the UN climate action summit earlier this year. Let's take listen. You are failing us. The eyes of all future generations are upon you. And if you choose to fail US I I say we will never forgive you failure. I mean does the world need more language like that more Greta tune. Burg's if we're going to see the kind of rapid transformational action that today's he's report calls for. Yeah I mean we can't sugar coat this and in many ways we have been failing if you think about it. Since the first unit emissions gap report was published in two thousand ten and global emissions have increased around eleven percent that is startling and the impacts unfolding around us are just getting worse and worse. I'm at the same. Mm Time what we know is that it is still technically feasible to avoid the worst climate change impacts but failure is reversible. Failure is is reversible but with tremendous effort and while there have been examples of rapid change in specific technologies or sectors in the past. There there is no precedent in our documented history for the rate of change at the scale that we're talking about for limiting warming to avoid the worst climate change impacts thanks Kelli Levin is a senior associate with W. R. is Global Climate Program. Thank you very much for joining us today thank you.
The Ocean Farmers Trying to Save the World With Seaweed
"The, ocean farmers trying to save the world with Seaweed. By Melissa Godin. In a cove in Banfield, a coastal community in British Columbia Canada Louis drill steers his boat, the Kelp Express, a mile along the mountainous coastline for fifty one years. This boat has taken drool to the fortuitously named Kelp Bay where beneath the water surface ropes of seaweed we that drool has been carefully harvesting for decades dangle in the Cold Pacific water. Referred to by some as the? Seaweed. Guru. By others as the Kelp grandfather drool eighty four was the first commercial seaweed operator in North America. When he began growing kelp a brown seaweed in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, two, seaweed is his life he studied farmed, it cooked it and written award winning best selling book about it over the years. Drool has watched interest in seaweed come and go. But now as climate change wreaks havoc on ecosystems across the planet, the world is turning to seaweed as a potential climate change solution. All of a sudden people have discovered Seaweed drooled tells me they've discovered us. Seaweed can play a huge role in fighting climate change by absorbing carbon emissions, regenerating marine ecosystems, creating biofuel and renewable plastics as well as generating marine protein. Until recently, this centuries-old old industry has mainly farmed seaweed for food in Asia with China as the world's biggest producer of seaweed accounting for sixty percent of global volume. But over the past decade, Global Seaweed production has doubled with an estimated value of fifty nine point. Sixty one billion dollars in twenty nineteen as in Seaweed as a food source carbon sink option and renewable product from consumers, farmers, researchers, and business leaders blossoms the coast of British Columbia where drool has spent his adult life is a hot spot of seaweed biodiversity, and yet the industry here is only just taking off a seaweed industry could bring jobs to the area amidst mass layoffs as a result of the COVID nineteen pandemic. Could this remote seaweed rich corner of the world turn seaweed into climate solutions for the future drool is optimistic saying I think we're going to pull it off. While forests have long been considered the best natural defense in the battle against climate change researchers have found that seaweed is in fact, the most effective natural way of absorbing carbon emissions from the atmosphere unlike tree-planting seaweed doesn't require fresh water or fertilizers and grows at a much faster rate than trees expanding by up to two feet day but seaweeds. Biggest comparative advantage is that it doesn't compete for demands on land. When we're planting trees, we need to make sure it does not take away that land from food production says, Katie leveling a researcher with the World Resources Institute Carbon Removal Team, which studies how best to sequester carbon from the atmosphere. But that is not an issue with seaweed she says. Seaweed can also help reduce greenhouse gas emissions and other ways adding a small amount of ASPARAGUS tax of is a red algal species to cattle. Feed has the potential to reduce methane production from beef cattle by up to ninety nine percent. Given concerns about the environmental impact of Meat Seaweed which itself is a source of protein could be an eco-friendly and nutrient packed food source in the coming years Ronaldo Singa an expert in the Netherlands found that growing C. vegetable farms totaling one hundred, eighty, thousand square kilometers roughly the size of Washington state could provide enough protein for the entire world. When you look at how we're going to feed the world population by twenty fifty in a way that doesn't harm the environment. There's only one pathway says Carlos Duarte a researcher and professor in Biological Oceanography and marine ecology to scale up seaweed farming. It's not just about sustaining local economies. It's about community. Expanding the farming of seaweed can also have beneficial social impacts along the coast of British Columbia where drool from seaweed farming offers job opportunities for first nations communities where unemployment rates have forced some people to leave the region to find work a local company called Cascadia. See we to which drool sits on the board is working in collaboration with first nations communities to become the largest provider of cultivated seaweed in North America for food, we want people to have a job so that they can come home says, Larry. Johnson President of the new, not Seafood Limited partnership that provides aquaculture training for fifteen first nations communities living on Vancouver Island. It's not just about sustaining local economies. It's about community. For thousands of years. First, nations people living along these shores were agriculturalists, harvesting species on land, and in the ocean seaweed farming is unique for first nations communities because it helps us create economies of our own that aligned with our tradition says Johnson our role has always been to connect with the land and repair it. Although research into seaweed as a climate change solution has increased significantly over the past decade. The discoveries aren't new to drool who back in the nineteen seventies was. One of the few people aware of seaweeds potential in the seventies drool was a marine biology professor at Simon Fraser University, in Vancouver where he researched the reproductive biology of. A large Brown seaweed that can absorb twice the UK's annual carbon emissions. But back, then he says the only interest in seaweed were people who went to health food stores and saw it as a good supplement to their diet. and. This change in the eighties when the OPEC crisis struck oil prices skyrocketed and governments were suddenly desperately searching for alternative sources. Drool who was one of the few people that knew about seaweeds oil potential quickly went from being an unknown marine biologist on Canada's west coast to someone that was of massive interest to the US government drool was invited to address. The Senate answering questions about seaweed-based biofuel which led to him overseeing a promising kelp growing project in Banfield in partnership with General Electric but a year and a half into the project. The OPEC crisis ended oil prices dropped and the funding for C. WE biofuel dried up. We were very disappointed rule says even in the nineteen eighties, we knew we needed alternative energy. For the following decades interest in cal- dissipated but drool kept growing seaweed, selling it and health food stores. I never quit my day job drool says noting at the time that only. Small number of people wanted seaweed but slowly interest in seaweed grew again in two thousand fourteen, the first peer reviewed paper analyzing seaweed as climate change solution for carbon offsetting was published. The same year seaweed became trendy among some of the world's most famous chefs with. Language Seaweed cookbooks appearing in bookstores suddenly see we as well as drool once again, found themselves in high demand drool was supplying kelp to hotels across British Columbia including Fairmont a luxury five star resort my wife and I were flown to Denmark to give lectures to all these chef's he says it was a riot. The climate economy is wind at our back. Since two thousand, fourteen seaweed has increasingly been in the spotlight as a solution for climate change due to its ability to offset carbon, be a sustainable food source and its regenerative properties for ocean ecosystems over the past five years several academic articles have been published about seaweed as climate change solution, and various seaweed cultivation projects have popped up around the world from Saudi, Arabia to new, Hampshire, seaweed farmers, and researchers are. Experimenting with Seaweed Cattle Feed biofuel and bioplastics while the industry for these products is still in its infancy. Many are optimistic about its future. The climate economy is wind at our back says Brent Smith, executive director of green wave, an ocean farming company. The Ocean is coming. The tide is rising. We can either run and hide and build seawalls or we can turn around and embrace the see as a climate change solution. Yet there remained questions about whether seaweed can be scaled globally as a carbon offsetting strategy to combat climate change the gains from Seaweed sequestering co two can be reversed if it's not used correctly if see weed is just grown for the purpose of absorbing carbon without being harvested, it will rot and release the C O two. It's captured back into the atmosphere. Researchers say there are two possibilities sinking the seaweed into the deep sea or using it for products ranging from food to biofuel but these options are not straightforward technology to sink. We'd is unlikely to be cost effective and the process of transporting, drying and converting seaweed into food biofuel and bioplastics itself emit co two. Seaweed has a range of applications beyond carbon storage that can be a part of the solution says Halley FROLIC, and assistant. Professor at the University of California Santa Barbara who researchers the scale ability of seaweed farming but it's certainly not a silver bullet. Growing Seaweed on a global scale also has ecological risks too much. See we could impact the amount of life that goes down to other species affecting photosynthesis processes and could have dangerous effects on ecosystems by removing too many nutrients from wild ecosystems. But for drool WHO's watched interest in seaweed come and go his perspective biofuel fortunes wax and wane weather seaweed farming can be scaled is not a technological question. It's a question of whether it's companies and consumers have the will to help this industry flourish. We're moving along very nicely. Technologically, we know that seaweed can improve many aspects of our life drool says, but I don't think things are working in a parallel fashion in the political and social world. For the, INDUSTRY TO SCALE DROOL SAYS governing bodies both national and international, as well as private companies have to make major investments to help the industry, get its feet off the ground but currently many governments in the Western world have yet to sufficiently invest in the industry or create the necessary conditions for it to scale in some countries like the United States. And Australia. It's easier to receive a government concession for oil and gas than it is for cultivating seaweed for biofuel. In many Western countries permits for growing seaweed are hard to come by and internationally all the global mechanisms that could regulate seaweed farming were developed before the industry was created leaving gaps in regulation and permitting seaweed is not an industry in most. Western nations says worte it's a thought but this thought somewhere between a pipe dream and inevitability has captivated rule for half a century. It's always been Kelp. He tells me noting that he's always been fascinated by kelps. Many uses even during the pandemic drool thinks seaweed has a role to play the industry. He says could provide meaningful green jobs to people who've. Recently, become unemployed currently drool is trying to convince his own daughter whose job has been affected by the pandemic to join him in Kelp. Bay I keep telling her we've got Nice Kelp business out here. But even if drools daughter is not interested in joining the family business, there's a long line of perspective seaweed farmers waiting to learn from the Kelp grandfather. At the end of our call drooled tells me that currently he's looking out his window and watching people unload seaweed from his boat. There is no question that seaweed farming can be done at a large scale and can improve our lives. He says, we just need the political will.
Bruce Friedrich: How Is Eating Meat Affecting Our Planet?
"It's the Ted radio hour from NPR. I'm guy Roz, and I'm the show today. Ideas about how we can stop the worst effects of global warming and save our planet. And one of the ways we might be able to do that is, by changing our diets and eating a lot less meat. I read a book called diet for a small planet by Francis morla pay and Francis Marlow, pay basically, makes the argument that in order to eat meat we have to grow massive amounts of crops that we then funnel through in a most. This is Bruce Friedrich. He's co of a nonprofit called the good food institute. The most recent statistics from the world Resources Institute indicate that it takes about nine calories fed to a chicken to get one calorie back out in the form of chicken meat, and chickens are the most efficient animal. So you're talking about nine times as much land nine times as much water nine times as many pesticides, herbicides on the crops. And then you have to ship, all of those crops to a feed mill yet to operate the feed mill you have to ship the feed to the factory farm, you have to operate the factory farm, you have to ship the animals to the slaughterhouse you have to operate the slaughterhouse. Once you crunch all of those numbers. And all of that inefficiency what we find is that meat production. According to the United Nations causes about fourteen point five percent of all human caused climate change globally. That's more than transportation. So the animal agriculture industry causes more climate change than all of the cars and the trains, and the planes than all forms of transportation combined. Here's more from Bruce Friedrich on the Ted stage. I get one thing out of the way I am not here to tell anybody what to eat besides convincing the world to eat less meat. It hasn't worked for fifty years environmentalists, global health experts and animal activists have been begging the public to eat less meat and yet per capita consumption is as high as it's been in recorded history, the average North American last year more than two hundred pounds of meat and I didn't eat any. Which means somebody out there. Four hundred pounds of me. On our current trajectory, we're going to need to be producing seventy to one hundred percent more by twenty fifty this requires a global solution. What we need to do is we need to produce the meat that people love, but we need to produce it in a whole new way. I've got a couple of ideas idea number one. Let's grow meat from plants stood of growing plants feeding them to animals, and all of that inefficiency. Let's grow those plants. Let's bio mimic, meet with them. Let's make plant based meat idea number two for actual Annemie. Let's grow it directly from cells instead of growing live animals. Let's grow the cells directly pick six weeks to grow chicken to slaughter weight, grow the cells directly. You can get that same growth in six days. All right. Let's talk through this, because we know there are lots of people working on this, and we've heard of lab, grown meat, and there's different kinds of plant based meat alternatives that are trying to mimic the texture of meat and so on. And it's nearly there on a consumer level. But I mean how would it work? Like, how do you actually Turnley create real meat or, or meet? That is indistinguishable from animal meat from plants. Well, one of the central brainstorms here is that people eat meat despite how it's produced. They do not eat meat because of how it's produced. So the guy who is the chair of the egg economics department, at Purdue. A guy named Jason Lusk did a survey and found that more than forty five percent of Americans want to ban slaughter houses, and of course ninety eight percent of Americans are eating meat. So that's a pretty big disconnect. And the main point there is that people are uncomfortable with factory farms. So if people can make choices that are better for the environment. They will. So that's sort of point one and then point to is everything in meat exists in plants meat is made up of lipids and Amenas and minerals and water. That's. Yes, it, so it's not going to, you know it's difficult and it's going to take resources it's hard. But until Ethan Brown came along with beyond meat and Pat Brown came along with impossible foods, the idea of plant based meat was not, let's hire tissue, engineers, and plant biologists and meet scientists, like the central brainstorm of impossible foods and beyond to me is, we can give people, the taste the texture and everything else that they liked about me, but we can do it with plants. We just need to hire the right scientists. In recent years, some companies have been producing meat from plants that consumers cannot distinguish from actual animal meat. And there are now dozens of companies growing actual animal meat directly from selves, this plant based in cell based meat gives consumers everything that they love about me, the taste the texture and so on. But with no need for anti-biotics, and with a fraction of the adverse impact on the climate, and because these two technologies are so much more efficient at production scale these products will be cheaper. So one of the really exciting things about beyond me and impossible foods is they have sort of thrown down the gauntlet of our target market for these plant based meets is not that you -tarian 's, it is everybody and you eat the beyond burger you eat the beyond chicken, which fooled both Mark Bettman from the New York Times, and Bill Gates, a very big meat eater like these products as well as the impossible burger, which fooled the taste testers at Burger King. Like these are phenomenal plant base meats and their plant based meat for really everybody than the other product, which is a distinct product, the clean meat so lab grown meat us a misnomer every processed food starts in a food lab. Budweiser starts in a food, latch every package cereal starts in a food lab. But we don't say lab-grown Cheerios we refer to clean meat as the nod to clean energy. So meet grown directly from cells is. Is meet. That is better for the environment in the same way that clean energy is energy, that's better for the environment. And this is again instead of growing an entire animal. Let's grow the cells directly. Yeah. I mean I mean, here's the thing, right? Like the theme of this episode is time that the effects of climate change are here. You're talking about it needs to happen now. But how do we get this to happen faster? How do we expedite this process? Well, we need, we need something like Manhattan project level moon landing level, resources put into reinventing meets. We are at house on fire where climate change is concerned, so we are probably on a trajectory right now where the market will get us to plant based meat and sell based meat over time. But you don't really have that much time. So governments that care about these issues should be prioritizing it making it happen as quickly as possibly happen. That's Bruce Friedrich. He's co founder and executive director of the good food institute. You can see his full talk at Ted dot com.
Babbage: Climate. Change
"The climate change is happening. The world is facing a warming of roughly three degrees Celsius compared to pre industrial levels by twenty one hundred and that is assuming that governments deliver on their policies to cut emissions next week the leaders from around the world would gather in New York City the United Nations Climate Action Summit on Friday this week. People are expected to take to the streets in over one hundred fifty countries trees to in their own words demand an end to the age of fossil fuel. I'm Kathleen Blake Economists Environment Editor and your listening to Babich on economist radio our weekly podcast about science and technology in the run-up tool this we ask given the the threat that climate change poses to shoe society only ever seems to get greater and more urgent what can be done now to alter that course joining me to try to answer this question or three guests whose work has been central to the issue. Christiana Figueres was executive secretary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change from two thousand and ten two thousand sixteen and in Twenty fifteen she she facilitated the Paris Agreement under which governments promised to limit warming to two degrees Celsius or less she now convenes mission twenty twenty an initiative chesapeake global emissions by next year and she joins us on the line from Costa Rica. Hello Christiana. Thank you very much for having me today. Thank you also on the Line Linus Kevin Anderson Kevin is professor of energy and climate change in the School of Engineering at Manchester University his work informed the UK Climate Change Act and the development of National Carbon urban budgets. Hello Kevin Join you thank you and with me in the studio is Ed Davey a member of the food and land use coalition with the World Resources Institute Institute. Ed was a contributor to the institute's recent reports on creating a sustainable food future ED welcome. Thank you great to be here. Kevin and let's start with you if you could just give us a bit of a scene setter. What is the current state of the climate. How does it really well what we've seen so far always about a one degree centigrade warming over the last one hundred years most of that occurred only at the last fifty years and we know that's come about through our emissions of greenhouse gases and just to put that in context we've only really seen about one degree of warming over the last ten thousand years so joined the modern human times in terms of the main source of of the warming has been caused by burning of fossil fuels and the emissions of come dockside there indeed missions also from Food and agriculture very important players in this but mostly is energy and what we've witnessed in the last few years ongoing increases so emissions went up last year by about one point six percent of the did the year before and let's also be clear. We're not going to stay at the temperature at today. We are continuing to Mitch. The temperature will continue to go up so we're not at a new climate a new normal yet so the situation is and I think dyer is a fair description or the language of climate emergency which is being reluctant to use but the more thought the more that that is an appropriate way describe the situation situation. We're in today and so in the long term what's the outlook well unless we radically bend that curve down rates. I think beyond what most of us are prepared yet to really consider then. We're going to probably two three four five degrees centigrade of warming across the century. That's effectively light living on a different planet so we are talking about in just a handful of generations going from a stable climate that we've had pretty much for ten thousand years to a climate is fundamentally different to anything that we would recognize okay so some sobering facts there in the last year or couple years. I think most people will be familiar with the fact that we've seen in a flurry of activity on a government level here in the UK. We had a net zero commitment earlier this year by twenty fifty and of course there's activity not just on a government level but also non-state actor so businesses. CEO's industry states cities mayors etc Christiana Christina. Everybody else feels free to pitch but can you tell us a little bit about what kind of action are we seeing and is it important the commitments from governments in such as the UK but also some other European as well as New Zealand as well as some Latin American. You do begin to see that. There are some governments that are beginning to take take this quite seriously also see that there are corporations that have understood that this is about business continuity for them that there are no customers on a dead planet and that it is in their own interest as well as in the interest of the strength and stability of any country's as a quantity to decarbonised as quickly as possible. The third sector that is moving forward is the financial sector there we already have more than six trillion dollars dot are assets under management by more than two thousand financial institutions that are migrating their financial assets from hi carbon to low-carbon and then of course now the very new wave that is coming in is activists on the streets so whether it is governments corporates finance finance or civil society that is expressing its concern on the streets. We do see a surge of concern and out activity. All of that is very good news but we're not yet bending the curve. We already increased last year. We increased greenhouse gases globally but one point seven percent and we're getting dangerously close to twenty twenty by twenty twenty. We have to put ourselves in a position of beginning to descend emissions rather than continue to increase if I can take this to very tangible practical level twenty three percent of our emissions. Come from land use an ad. You've looked at how we cut those in very real terms what needs to happen tomorrow or even yesterday. The first thing is we've got to protect the wild remaining forests and critically systems. We also need to protect the world's peatlands. We need to restore huge amount of degraded land. We need to reduce food loss and waste in parts of the world. We need to reduce meat consumption while in other parts. I'll give it to increase it but the bottom line is we need to manage the land infinitely more sustainably protect the ecosystems that remain sustainably intensify where we can and also address consumption and dies. It sounds a little bit like a wishlist right and that's that's always my problem Oakland with these things. It sounds like we're creating this long list of things that would happen in an ideal world but in practice seem incredibly credibly difficult to achieve especially given the time constraints. It's true on the land is complex. It's political but there's a lot already happening right around the world. I mean if you look at India India for example with zero budget natural farming and underproduction you look at an amazing revolution happening in China with farmers markets on a pivot towards more organic ecological production in Colombia Ethiopia with land restoration Indonesia whether it's been a substantial reduction in deforestation and loss of peatland in the last eighteen months there is a lot that's happening but of course we need to go to scale very fast also add that. I think the first thing you need to do when you're in a hole is to stop digging so we look at someone like the U K where we had the Climate Change Act in two thousand and eight which is an excellent piece of legislation but then you hear the rhetoric about what we can do in the U. K. and certainly there have been some improvements in decarbonising our electric system but at the same time our government has enthusiastically supported the ongoing development offshore oil and gas so we've got the nuclear which platform new Glenn Gorham Gasfield you see the the same thing with Statoil or was it renamed itself now Ecuador Illinois so you've got some of the wealthiest countries in the world still developing fossil fuels and Christiana. It says we have to bend that curve. We have to bend rapidly and the first thing you need to do when you went to bend. That curve is to stop digging out more fossil fuels. Ultimately climate does not care about how efficient can't we are or how many renewables we have what the climate really cares about are the total quantity of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas molecules so we need to be looking for the wealthy parts of the world like the UK and Norway here too rapidly phase out the existing fossil fuel use in a just way to the people who have those jobs can transfer across to the renewables jobs and to all of the other infrastructural changes that will need to decarbonised energy system is so you talk about phasing away from fossil fuels but at the end of the day the reality he is that fossil fuels are completely integrated into our everyday lives right. It's not quite as easy is just switching off a tap somewhere. So how do you do that and as you say particularly security. How do you do it. In a just an equitable way. Reforming fossil fuel subsidies I think is a big prize and the same actually factor cultural subsidies in the new report we published the Kardasian calculates. Seven seven hundred billion dollars per year currently spent on subsidies. I'm not underwrites the underperformance of that sector so reforming those subsidies giving renewables a level playing field l. the neighboring a massive uptake on innovation would be one way for it and I do think that it's important to understand but sadly we have run out out of time to choose which way to proceed here is is a national regulation challenge or is this a consumer behavior transformation. The fact is at this point it has to be both if we had twenty thirty years we could choose either way and move forward but at this point we have run out of time and so we need both the systemic transformations that you've heard from cabinet from. Ed and we also need behavior changes so just because governments may or may not be moving forward with their policies and measures yours does not excuse the individual from also being much more mindful about the embedded carbon in our daily consumption of food. Food are daily use of energy the way we transport ourselves. All of those are individual choices over which we have full control so this is a point that I wanted to get to. I have probably quite a large carbon footprint. I don't have a car do cycle but I also fly I by heat my house on gas and obviously my diet has also considerable carbon footprint most of us. I think are completely not daunted by the challenge that you're talking about Cristiano most of us. I think don't even know where to begin so I'm curious from each interview since you are so embedded in this. Where do people begin well. I don't think it's not difficult I mean I you have to begin by deciding making a very conscious choice that you're going to contribute attribute but just being you know standing there and being admiring the problem and being daunted doesn't help so you have to say over right. We are all equally responsible pencil here we can all contribute so first thing get a carbon calculator of which there are many on the Internet and just figure out your carbon footprint. It doesn't have to go to the milligram. Just you know a basic sense of what is your carbon footprint secondly figuring out. What is your plan to reduce your own personal footprint footprint down to one half of whatever it is today over the next ten years that is not a daunting task and in the meantime start contributing to the absorption of CO two. We have to get the CO two that is in the air and put it back into the soil. Wow all of us can contribute by planting and in the meantime begin to reduce from your food consumption from your energy from the way you insulate or don't insulate in your home. There are many things that we can all do. There is no excuse not to get involved and you already alluded to. The answers is there. You are already aware that you don't drive you. Bring that to the fore because you aware that driving a car doesn't help you mentioned you're flying because you've aware that has a huge carbon footprint. It's actually yeah I think. Most of us are fairly aware of what the principal issues are that we need to address. I would also point out his equity component within countries if you look at somewhere like the UK I work in Manchester. Just north of where the university is the people. There have incredibly low footprints. These are relatively poor people mostly working in low quality houses that need to be insulate and so forth but don't have the money for that so that's great elation issue. The governments need to put in place but we look to places where I live. There are many more opportunities for people like me and the people that live in that terrier wealthier area to make significant changes to how we're living our lives so there's plenty of opportunities that are there and we know what they are. It does require almost more of cultural value values shift and that is going to come about from the early adopters of this new way of thinking I discussing these issues discussing with children listening to the school strikes I'm and generating a new cultural dynamic that requires us to aspire to other ways to live in our world rather than just ones of ever more consumption which is inevitably the even if we make it low-carbon. We'll still be unsustainable. That sounds great but it does sound like There's basically a sort of dictated plan for how people should be living their lives. There's no way out of that. Never think about that. Dictation we either the wealthy ones the high maters either have to have their allies dictated to a degree or we carry on with the freedoms we have today and we dictate climate change on the poor and the climate vulnerable living on the coast of Bangladesh and elsewhere wave not dictation route here. It's one of choice between the wealthy making changes dictated on imposed upon them to some degree by regulations regulations that we should be driving for ourselves or we impose changes on the poor people elsewhere and future generations including own children so what you're saying thing to observe that societies can change if you think about the slave trade. If you think about Martin Luther King I do believe we may be on the cusp of an extraordinary transformation right round the world community's companies governments are acting now. We're absolutely clear. They're not moving fast enough on my goodness. We've got to scale our ambition mission a thousandfold very fast in the UN climate summit coming up is a good opportunity for companies to indicate that and we're waiting to hear what India has to say China Indonesia European European Union etc but society can pivot fast and I think it's incumbent on all of us to show the ways that countries and communities can turn around and it can be done yeah I would totally agree with that and I would say that there are signs of this transformation already sprouting cutting. I spend quite a bit of time with young people and I wouldn't say all young people but there is an increasing number of young people who have decided sighted dot everything that Kevin has described is not for them. They don't want a car. They don't want to consume. They don't want a big house they. They have a very different value said because they have understood that if there's any dictation here it is we have dictated this to ourselves because we have reached planetary rebounders for them. It's actually cool to share transportation. It's actually called to be on a bike. They have a very different view of what desireability is so. I'm actually quite excited about already the sprouting coming forward of a very different view of what is our livelihood going to look like yeah. I agree the the societal changes recently have been quite oy surprising and I think the generational shift is really interesting. However I do feel like we've been here before right in my time covering comet change. I've seen at least three times. I'm sure you guys have seen it for more. The sense that something well actually is ed put that we're on a cost that something's about to change. I think we had it in two thousand six when the IPC came out nick stern and there was a whole flurry of activity around that I think we had in Copenhagen and we all know how that ended and and I think we had it in Paris and so one thing that I keep asking myself is very simply. What's different this time other than the fact act that we need it to happen faster and bigger and greater I would agree with you. I think we've had these these false starts but I think to some extent. Those false starts. Ask deliberately put in place or at least they they emerged quite rapidly. That's what they were and I think it's because the current economic framing of our society looks to be incompatible with the rates of change that we require and the problem I think with all those other potential tipping points you talked about was that they were actively trying to say how can we tip within that that's model so whether that was stern whether that was to some extent. Copenhagen at least Peres said more quantitative framework as well. I'm not saying that this is going to succeed. It is our choices succeeds or not but I think the opportunity is different today because we are prepared to question the system within which we will have to make these changes that doesn't mean to say we will succeed that and we have to try as hard as we possibly can but if you align the much cheaper renewable energy is now available if you align that with potential value changes that we can discuss that debate it has been opened up mostly by the younger generation but by others as well. If you start to coalesce some of these issues then I think you can start to see ways that we can get ourselves out of the situation duration that way we Kevin. I think that's the most optimistic I've ever heard. I agree with the spirit of what Kevin has said but I wouldn't call the previous efforts false starts. I think what we have seen over the past certainly thirty years that I have been in this field is continually growing and increasing levels of understanding founding we have seen increasing levels of technological development of pop never fast enough so it's it's never fast enough. It's always been growing. It's always building upon the previous. Would I think is different. Now is we're building on everything that is there but I I actually think that we have exponentially increased the level of both the outrage and exponentially increase the level full of optimism. We are actually in point now where I have never seen so much outrage and so much anger and so much inpatient nations which is all a very good thing because we all need a very healthy dose of that we also need a healthy dose of optimism which is to see that we can on get ourselves out of this because if we just falling to a whole of the spare the won't be able to get out but we just hope that this new generation is is going to carry on being outraged and optimistic and build a new system that is completely different to the system that we've existed increase it just to add to everything that Michael Lisa which I completely agree with justice sense of people's feeling of crisis I mean I was with three indigenous Amazonian leaders from Brazil in London last week they were here and they were talking about the crisis in the regions and it was very very stark and I think right around the world people are observing what's happening and thinking in my goodness. This has got to shift now over in deep trouble and I think that the starkness of the Climate Science Kevin set out of the outset is also concentrating people's minds like before. It's very hard populism the like but I think people are wising up to this around the world but I also think you know the system changing aging. Let's not just see climate change in isolation here now not saying these are good things but where the banking crisis the Arab spring got people like Corbin who's had not seen as a good or a bad we can make our own interpretation of them but he stands outside of the establishment so we see a whole suite of these things where people within the system and collectives with this system are questioning it anyway so so. I don't think we should pretend that the system itself is somehow stabily is continuing to to reinforce stability but there are these increasing. I think voices more widely that aren't on climate a bit related but they are ones that have had a lot of dissatisfaction with how the system has actually delivered and the inequality within it and I think to me. I don't think we're going to succeed but we won't succeed if we don't try to. It's not just about the technologies and I probably a matter of semantics. I don't like the sort of optimism to me is realism but that was. Let's be realistic. We're going to go ahead and a handcart but we don't have to and that is our choice. It's not about something else that's going to pressurise about luck is about. US choosing to make great those sorts of changes but Cristiana. Do we need to basically overturn capitalism to solve this well. Unfortunately we don't have time for that. Honestly the next ten years are absolutely critical to climate change and I don't think we're going to overturn capitalism weekend definitely molded to serve this purpose and I think that is is under way and I also think that they'll contribution of corporations is critical. We're not GONNA do this without corporations doing the right thing. Harness the power of capitalism would be my argument and also establish a kind of Marshall Plan for the Environment For all times. I mean we know what we need to do on energy transport on on food and land use on infrastructure. It's going to be hard but we've got a very clear plan. Let's just go for it starting at the climate summit in the coming days every country has a role every leader left all right every CEO every community group you know this is all hands on deck for the next ten twelve years. We know what we need to do. Let's do it so we do need to wrap up but before we have a double question for each one of you and not is one. How do you address climate change in your personal lives and and secondly if you were speaking as you are to our listeners. What is the one thing that each one of our listeners should do tomorrow. I'm trying to reduce the number reflects I take every year. Kevin's very strong on that and then my recommendation would be many of us to reduce the red meat on the data. We can not get together very small amounts very high on the welfare on it should be a luxury rather than a day today and not specifically in Western wealthier countries in Ethiopia country. I love many many hundreds of people thousands of people need to consume more animal protein and that's absolutely fine as it should be but in the West that would be one very strong recommendation. Christiana Anna I gave up red meat many many years ago and I can totally recommended because it is done wonders for my health so not just my personal health planet health both and as a family we do have a tree planting program because all of us fly way too much great. Kevin Stop Flying in two thousand and force not flown since then and moved to a flat from a house and probably cut my driving by a half to three quarters but to be honest I think the individual changes things that we make in themselves are really not very important. The point is you make them and then you precipitously talk about them with your friends. Your colleagues your family with your work colleagues. The the actual changes themselves are only there was a catalyst for conversation with others to try and drive that change more widely because ultimately what we have to deliver has not changed by some individuals Joel's but is system level change but I think the role of the individual in catalyzing that system level changes is hugely important so make the changes that we've all spoken about but but then talk about them with other people and also engage openly in the political process those emissions themselves aren't Hewson important except for they give us credibility to open open debate fascinating Christiane Garris Kevin Anderson at Davy. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you our guests. It's had lots of tangible suggestions for ways to cut your carbon footprint but it's clear that the challenges ahead are enormous as people gather in New York. They'll be asking how governments and corporations can massively amp up efforts to reduce greenhouse gases in the earth's atmosphere. The question is whether these discussions will turn into results or whether this will be another false start not so for this week's Babich Edge you can read more in the upcoming edition of economists which has a focus on climate change or why not subscribe Gotree Economists Call Slash Radio Offer for twelve issues for twelve dollars at least twelve hundred and while you're with us. Please don't forget to rate US apple podcasts. I'm kissing in London. This is economist yeah.
Coronavirus and mobility
"Welcome Marksman Force the urban Est. The show all about the cities we live in. I'm Andrew Talk Coming up on today's program. We have to prioritize public transportation because when we are back to normal that will again be. The main is the most important way to travel around. The current pandemic has reshaped the way that we move around our cities. Public transport usage is an all time low. Cycling is on the rise and people have been reclaiming the streets and pavements for their daily walks many urban centers around the world have introduced temporary measures to accommodate this new reality. But if this could prove to be an opportunity for actual change in the places that we live over the next thirty minutes we tried to answer that question and imagine a better future for mobility in our cities as all coming up right here on the east with me android up. So welcome to this week's episode lockdown measures as a response to Kobe. Nineteen have impacted transfer. Massively we're seeing cities across the world from Paris to Milan Brussels to New York. Using this as an opportunity to implement new transit solutions build more cycle lanes expand sidewalks ama- juice call usage. Cloudier Odriozola style has worked in the transport sector of all twenty years. Currently she serves as the deputy director of the Urban Mobility Program. The World Resources Institute and as the Director of Health and road safety. Wri's raw center for Sustainable Cities. Safe to say. She's an authority on the matter. Cloudy thank you for joining us. This is an interesting moment visitors. Car Ask you these temporary interventions which many we think will become permanent. They're great for one for short journeys of course and here in London with speaking to you from Bain. Lots of interesting changes in the patterns of behavior. You see on the streets but they're particularly good for a certain type of person fit healthy. Often people traveling on their own or in a couple complicated going with a multigenerational family sometimes bicycles for example. So on the other side. There's the problem that people who don't feel that they can get on a bicycle need to public transport and now we're seeing the opposite problem with saying that people feel very cautious about using public transport. They don't like the feeling isn't very clean. They don't sat in the chair before they want their own private space too busy. Are you worried while we may see a gain for this short distance mobility that people have to commute for example again tying to that cause rather than to subways and trains and buses? Yes I am. Concern in is a battle of the population that we really have to think about it in how it go by sustainable mobility to them that is fair. Meaning that he's cleaned that offer them the social distance that they need to be able to travel without getting sick so I do worry about that. One of my main concerns is the chief tool motorcycles. Why because one of the most dangerous mode of transportation around the war is the motorcycle. If you do not put some policies in place around them one will be around speed. Saccone will be about infrastructure in structure is appropriate for them. They are very vulnerable. If you think about the Pothole Ford. Our Card for the bus is not a big issue. But a motorcyclist going in the dark hitting one of those can be just a death sentence so there are few things that we need to be very careful if we see a chipped to motorcycles in also private vehicles because that can worsen again pollution congestion in traffic crashes so we need to just go look at the number burks in see how many people can really cheat in. What are these shore discounts trips that we are talking about because before the crisis we have seen in the Netherlands for example spike or in Denmark I spike on electric assisted bicycles? That can help you go anywhere from biking thinking limiters to twenty kilometers so that might be another option that we can explore. But it's interesting a here London as I go around. I would be wary for example of taking a shed vehicle with other people. I wouldn't really particularly even WANNA get into an Uber here in London at this time. I think against Uber or taxi. Because you don't know who's been space before so I'm finding myself walking cycling and she taking a car sometimes but I haven't been on public transport in forty days and I'm fit and confident person so I worry that there's going to be this kind of cost me that they're going to be people who think actually the call is why won't for longer journeys and yes. Bicycle is great for shorter journeys walking and the bit in the middle which is like an old fashioned version of public transport will become the people who don't have access to those two things. You think that we will see a split in cities which used to be terrible. Spent you know that game. People used to boast in London about the how they never public transport because it was not for people like them. And you see that in some Latin American cities where wealthy people middle class people shun public transport. Do you think there's a risk of that? In for example in Latin America absolutely this crisis is already worsening inequality is just you know the possibility for fuel to have a private vehicle in pay anything even if you have congestion charging like loan if you want to defend your health then you will be willing to pay for that piece of very very puzzling question. One that we have to approach with numbers in with policy. We a lot of what we don't want. We don't want worse. Air Quality in cities will go one worst congestion with one more traffic fatalities. So what we are going to have to do is to be really open to many fit in options for example teleworking. If we have proven US award that indisposed civil for many of the jobs that we have to do it from home in traveling lease until the situation gets better. Then we have to do that. We can look me push in people that do not necessarily have to go to their offices to going public transportation if they don't feel comfortable about it so we have to have clarity on worries. The grew sold that we don't want to have after this crisis in move swiftly on pulling policies in place that could take the space that we have quite now. We'll that'd be difficult because I know example here again. I don't want to give him using lugging sample but in in recent months in a couple of years we've seen a fall in the number of people for example using some forms of public transport now is because already some people working from home. They were having a lot more home delivery from the likes of Amazon so they didn't have to go to shops and things but what happens is when you see a decline in the usage of public transport then the money that you get from. Fez to invest in public transport falls and then suddenly you have a system. That's a challenge and again it's good if people do work from home maybe in the coming months but unless people get back on public transport you run out of the funding don't you to then keep it. Maintained and expanded is a complicated balancing act about getting the money off of passengers. Investing it but somehow still keeping it not overcrowded and people feeling safe yes. That is very very important question and Rio in one. That is one of the most difficult wants to answer because badly transportation systems around the world have been always deprived of the necessary resources. Running always very tight look at the subway system in New York City in the one of the most important cities around the war in really having not enough resources to be able to do some basic repairs so it is a very complicated situation. We are not going to be able to go back to have the same of people going in the buses for example Incidence Millennia in Columbia. And we do not have a solution for Kobe. Nineteen we just worsened. The situation what can we do? We do have to prioritize masters for patients orbital if the budget. The city has a way to wait into where the windows in another fly over or in putting the money for keeping alive the public transportation system. We have to prioritize public transportation because when we are back to normal that will again be the main in the most important way to travel around you which cities that you've come across you talk about Colombia. There were cities that you've come across around the world. Do you think doing interesting things. During this period. You're concerned about road safety. And it was important fundamental part of your work. Where'd you think is doing a good job of the moment which the Lord of encouraging extent was from land that he's taking in space throwing the private vehicle in one important thing is they are reducing the speed? They are standing this at thirty kilometers per hour. Because they know that if they don't do this speak action. They will end up with more cyclist emergency home. Which is something that we don't want at this point when our public health system is already very stressed. I see a lot of work for example in both are where the city's trying defendants options but at the core of the solution is against cycling. It all has announced that they would be open in the country next week. And they are basing their mobility on Vikings something that was not in the rather before so that a lot of encouraging examples everywhere around the war house two bowls cycling well. Dawn is the core of the policy making for opening to the economy again. Okay cloud I want you to be my imaginary man. I'm going to charge my imaginary city. I'm going to ask you the manifesto of things that we should be thinking about doing. Now if a man calls you and says what do we do at this time to deliver on Greater Health Greater Road Safety Graceful Mobility for all? What be one or two of your things you'd say okay. Let's start here. This is the kind of program is an organization. We think you should be thinking about. I think I will prioritize. Health overall in health not only from not competing spread the fighters but also to protect people that we are be sending on the road in bikes that they probably have induce for many many years. So I will say null crowded areas I because we still have a potential risk of continuing Brennan's the virus. We are prioritize keeping our masters petition. Clean and safety for our drivers in people that are operating systems is very important. We are going to open up the space for cyclists. We're GONNA give them not only terrier roles but we're going to think that they will be in the city. It is a network right now for everyone in because of that reason. I will ask the badly to understand that we have to go to thirty kilometer. Spit hours citywide. I will reassure them that they will arise to the places safe in healthy and I will ask on companies in organizations in my city to be aware that this is a very different situation in that we have to try to stay safe all of us. I want to reassure the children. Also that this city is stores and they want to see to stay out biking in understanding that that is very both avoid to move around the city so I wanted to try with your mom and dad took go biking outside that was cloudier Odriozola style from the World Resources Institute in Washington. Dc. This is their best as you just heard in my chat with cloudier. Milan is one of the city's using this as an opportunity to change its relationship with the car. Milan is set to introduce one of Europe's most ambitious schemes reallocating street space from cars to cycling and walking as response to the corona virus crisis. The City Hall has announced that around thirty five kilometers of streets will be transformed over the summer with a rapid experimental citywide expansion of cycling infrastructure. To begin with as one of Europe's most polluted cities. This was a much needed step to change citizens habits and provide long-term sustainable way of getting around. Pierre Moran is the Urbanism and Greenery Counselor Farmland City Hall. And he's part of the team that has been hard at work turning this plan into reality Pier. Francesco thank you so much joining us on the urban EST. Patsy could start telling us a little bit more about this plan. Strada Aberra Day and the ambition is here. Well actually we are not new phase. A we don't know what the future will be an hour longer covered the wheel last and I think it we have different kind of future in front of as one is To accept that we have to go back to other way of life so we will use the car more than before we will forget about Reduction of pollution we were trying to obtain etc etc. The other way us to imagine that it's a chance to go on on this policies and saw some Cd's especially public transport. Now they have to find new ways. A to get sustainable. One is project like start a pair. So Jd There okay we can use it less public transport them before about the we have to imagine the public space to get more psyche lane to get the more space for Bosnian restaurant outside places in order to get the table. They wouldn't have inside and maintain their activity alive. It's not just an economical question but it is because they are part of our economy. It's also question of our quality of life. We have to overcome not Kobe. The but we have to Montaigne the European way of life of CDs. That was modified that we ever to maintain a physical diesel. But the we don't have to create social us. Now you've made the commitment to turn over some thirty five kilometers of St for walking and Pedestrians. How dramatically is is going to change? Milan is the center of the city. In effect. Going to become car free well the city settlement was supposed to be quite caffeine. Because we have a congestion charge of from one decayed use traffic. We doubled the pedestrian area in the last five years or so we were working on these direction but our main sturgis the idea that you reach the city centre by Public Transport. We are a little weak on cycle lane system and is the part of job we want to do this summer. Especially over uh the subway lines to give even physically the idea that is their preferred Tareyton. Maybe not the only one but the preferred and when you speak to other counselors amazing all this decision making has been able to take place during the pandemic but when you speak to other counselors and other people in the city. Is there a sense that these changes are going to be permanent or is this trying things out for the summer and autumn as we see how the pandemic plays out? Well I think that when you start sustainability it's out to come back. Luckily so bike lanes Now they are just painted just painted. We will make a better job. Sir Your by to make them permanent and safer probably on tables of a restaurant and bar. It's Osama solution because during winter. You can't stay out in the same way and probably because my opinion Disarma- it's better to put table even where it wouldn't be allowed usually dent wherever table less mount by. Banta we will see and we hope one day we will forget about covered and Tommy here at Monaco. Milan is really important. City for accompanying like is you. We come group several times a year for the furniture fair for the fashion shows. Similan has this magnet effect polls and people all around the World Trade for business for industry going forward. Do you think that is going to be less important to Milan? That you will become more a city for Milanesi for people from Lamberti that you will be less of an outward looking city and this environment of walkability and it's about neighborhoods and things that is going to be a new version of Milan people in the city council wondering what the future of. Milan should be as a city on a global stage question. It's not just landed but it's a good question for every city. I we have to defend our economy at the moment. And so they citizens of Milan Alaba addresses Father Mundane Alive restaurant. The baas shops except that we are imagining especially policy around the our barrels. The idea that the citizens should ever every service at fifteen minutes walking distance and they should also help the local economy to survive so they are full of restaurants in the area and if they want if they can awfully help them to maintain alive. Ch- these could be even for future because for example two is businessman coming to town. They don't use that much so if they will find the more worker and bike addicted cities them before. It's easier to ever newest inside the even before we have to be ready. When people will be allowed to travel again they would want to travel gain. We also imagine I'll can we design and fashion week? The May Molin two of our city as a connection with the word extraordinary times. Thank you so much to join us. It's a fascinating program. Does a very final thought other cities contacting you now as they see the program? You're doing because you've had Schuch says ever since Expo was in Milan charting a different course of your city other cities in Italy and around Europe. Asking you how you're delivering this kind of chain around mobility at the moment between us because apart they think we said that our actions that we published a city strategy for the POSCO VIDA on our website because citizens can send senda suggests John Oppose Alah even complaining because nobody knows what will happen so we want to debate by citizens many Italian cities asked about the strategy and the many international cities infected. We will publish an English version of the documenter because Many other cities are asking me. Landa started before so. We have few days of worker more than at the other cities. Pierre Francesca Moran the Urbanism Greenery Council Ebanon City Hole. Thank you so much for joining us now for many cycling way to get around. The city is not something new that they've picked up during quarantine. Mongols Daniel Beaches. Perhaps one of the most intrepid cyclists in our office has always loved discovering a city bicycle but the past month in lockdown has allowed him to take advantage of the empty streets and rediscover the city in new ways. Let's have a listen life in? London normally moves at a very rapid pace. There is always something to do and something new to experience amidst an incredible vibrancy of culture and diversity not to mention the array of sites architecture and visual reminders of centuries of history. It's a city I always wanted to live in for as long as I can remember and ever since I moved here a little over two years ago the majority of trips about town have been done by bicycle rain or shine night or day. I'm writing from A to be as great as transit is here. The tube is expensive packed and sweaty making people miserable and the bus is well to slow taxis. Too expensive coming from Canada. Getting used to London size and level of congestion was a big transition not to mention the awful air quality from the red buses cabs and white delivery vans that clogged the center smaller streets and heavy traffic. Of course make writing here. Not for the faint of heart or at least attracts for more people jumping on a bicycle. But luckily there are. Peleton's of commuters rolling around town on Weekdays as the city has gone all in on bike infrastructure in recent years. It could be much better of course but cycling is no doubt part of the city's fabric but of course everything I've just said hasn't applied to the past few weeks with our work from home existence and travel restrictions. London is drastically different. No throngs of tourists posing for photos and oblivious to their surroundings. No shoppers or office workers stepping into the street. Welcome to their phones and no double-parked Uber's to swing around while trying to avoid being hit by the door of an exiting passenger something which actually did happen on my very first week here working for Monocle as my colleagues well no. I'm an early riser. Who is almost always on the doing hill ramps or writing circles around regions park before arriving at the office and while some of my cycling buddies these days have chosen to only ride on the turbo trainer indoors to not risk a crash that would further put strain on hospitals. I'm still heading out the door most mornings around sunrise to explore more corners of this incredible city of course while staying away from others and being as careful as possible. I do this because has been more than a means of transportation or fitness. It's about the freedom to explore my city and to uncover its charms and many secrets with the dry and warm spring weather. We've enjoyed for the most part of late. I'm seeing London and a whole New Light taking the time to try. New Routes snap photos of the empty streets and squares and to make my way to places I'd normally avoid Piccadilly Circus is actually quite nice. The small intersecting back streets and lanes of the city are incredible and dripping with history. And why not take a spin around marble arch and then straight on down? Oxford Street I even mapped out my ideal. Central London parks monuments loop. Even though I'd much prefer if it would include a few cafe and pub stops along the way it starts at parliament where I pedaled past the Churchill statue and his war rooms Downing Street up the mouth and Saint James Park in full bloom past Buckingham Palace and then over to Hyde Park Corner. Imagine yourself in Hyde Park just you and the swamp and Birdsong. It's now a regular soundtrack to my rides and London's new greatest feature and at six am Fox's dart between cars and sit unbothered in the parks not worried about cyclist next. It's over to Baker Street and on to regents park where I find Maggie and molly the giraffes with a new sign showing their support for the NHS next looping around Primrose Hill and then following the long steady climbs up to hempstead heath and then Alexandra Palace to enjoy the views. Then it's down through Camden to King's cross to Saint Paul's onto Clark the London Wall Bank and eventually tower bridge normally. I'd take the cycle highway along the river. But now I can just cruise right down fleet street and carry straight onto the near Empty Trafalgar Square. I am no doubt taking advantage of these quieter days in London where I have nowhere to go other than the little radio studio at my kitchen table but I'm also finding time get lost and to create new shortcuts for when the streets are packed once again. I'm told more and more people turned to writing after the bombings of July seventh. Two thousand five and after the boost from the Olympics in two thousand twelve. Here's hoping the city could soon see. It's next cycling. Boom and I know the small bicycle manufacturers and clothing makers could use the boost on weekends of late. The number of people taking to the streets on two wheels is incredible. And what if all those new cyclists are now giving confidence to ride to work in the future? I think the city can help as well. As many companies and industries use this time to rethink their mission and strategy for the future. I hope to the politicians and urban planners are looking now at life in London with less traffic and choking diesel fumes and thinking about the landscape of the city's future and hopefully also keeping an eye on concrete steps being taken recently in Milan in Brussels and Paris Madrid before to produce car traffic and further as major cities. Start to open up again around the world. Why not close more streets to cars? So people can enjoy riding running or walking while continuing to keep a safe distance for others especially as the summer months approach because as I mentioned a life on two wheels is for me the best way to see a city and what it has to offer and to unlock its secrets and enjoy. Its charms every day for monocle in London. I'm Danube H almost time to head off but before we do let's take a look at the Australian company scattered go which develops an APP to boost confidence in public transport during covet. Nineteen intrigued. Well it simple. Using data from local authorities it wants to provide real time information. About how full carriages on a train? So that people can go back to using public transport while also avoiding overcrowding earlier joined by goes Sondra Vissel. Who told me more about the project? Skate Co is what's called a mobility as a service platform provider. So what we do. Is we combine all the transport requirements and transport mode Paypal nayed into one single application to make it accessible on Dimond so what that means is in order to plan a trip or book tickets for a trip in the future. You don't need five different applications. It went matter which transport married or which combination of moods. He want to us. He can do it all via one single application and we license out this routing algorithm the software to governments and corporations who want to provide that to their citizens they use. Now just tell me so if I'm in Australia. That has an APP that I can get on a now. You're doing something interesting because you know we know there's going to be a huge problem around confidence getting back onto public transport and so you've found something you can do to help get people back on the transfer and ease their fears. Could you explain to us what you're doing? So that's really exciting project. So in Sydney the Public Transport Authority is providing data on occupancy levels of carriages. And they do that by having sentences white senses in the carriages and we using this data to visualize which catches a busy in which carriages unknown busy and provide that to the end user. So is can make more informed decision as to whether they want to go this china-wide which carrots might be less busy. That can do a better job socially distancing for example which was interesting about the work that you do when you look on your phone it tells you all sorts of information about how much co two. Your journey is going to cost. The Earth. Encourages YOU TO BE MORE FIT. Perhaps it encourages. Ut exercise all sorts of things but when it comes to this information is it giving you information just in the next few minutes. So if I get to the train station for example as we using that example it would tell me okay. This is going to be a busy train. Wait five minutes or does it give you a bigger picture says I wouldn't really travel between eight nine. You're better off heading out earlier this morning so at the moment that's very much based on real time information but that can work as a predictive feature as well once there is enough data that we can use for sure. Yes until me the transit authorities. You'll dealing with in Australia. They were keen to see this happen to have they been talking to you about the kinds of confidence problems there anticipating or already saying well. I mean that's a problem across the globe now isn't it? Unfortunately that public transport ridership dropped by ninety percent or more and I think the general feeling that people are going to be reluctant to get back on a really crowded trying. So everyone's trying to figure out why is how to gain back people's confidence and trust and make sure people feel safer when they use public transport and fun and also a personal question for yourself. I came here to the students arrive at for come into multiple twenty four months week but here I am. I came in on my bicycle and I haven't been on public transport. Actually since this began. I have the same issue around that confidence. Do you find the same thing that you're cautious. Abo- we have a therapy session here. Are you feeling the same about public transit? I'm interested to know the people who today about how they feel about public transit. I'm lucky because it's not always worked from home Fully remotely so for us. Not that much has changed about for other purposes. I would definitely be more careful and I would really appreciate this kind of information that we're not providing in Sydney to have that here in London for example as well that be useful so I can make more informed decision as to when and how I travel that was Sondra Vissel of scat. Go I tell you the truth? I don't know I really don't know I listen to these people talking about the future of mobility and I'm unsure. How much of this is going to stick many of the solutions? We're saying come to the fore at the moment a great when people are moving around in their own neighborhood or perhaps going one or two neighborhoods across the not crossing the city. They're not having to connect to other transport hubs and in those moments. Yes you can get people out walking and cycling and it's been amazing. I here in London evenings. You see kind of families going out for an evening cycle right because they know the roads site something you just need ever saw in a few months ago. There's a kind of alleged enjoyment of cycling is incredible but on the other side people like being in that 'cause at this time as well because you don't want to be in an environment that you're in charge of you want to know how clean the spaces that you're entering. I think that's a challenge for some the shed bikes games. I went past one the other day. Where a woman was spraying it. Down AND POLISHING IT and cleaning up all the handles super smart looking woman in her little soft leather tote. She had the kind of stuff that you'd fill kitchen cupboard with to clean the bicycle before she got onto. It will anxiety dissipate. Of course will we saw going back to work in large numbers. Yes and then what happens is that maybe ten twenty thirty percent of this will stick and other ways of getting around and old habits will reemerge. But let's beat ourselves up if we manage to jump thirty percent in changing people's behavior in changing cities in just a few months. That's a huge triumph. That's an incredible feat but what has to happen is as the buses and cars and the other transport comes back onto. The roads is as we've heard from that world of road. Safety is make sure that Mary. Don's of pedestrians and cyclists and motor bikes and cars and taxes is one that conducted with care and a bit of compassion because it could get a bit grumpy out there as has don't want to give up the space. They've managed to claim over the last few weeks for example. But LET'S SAY WE'RE HOPEFUL. Always here on the good things around the corner Sunday. We came back on our bikes. And enjoying this moment. And we'll see what happens. Well that's all for this edition of the. Today's episode was produced by College. Rabelo and David Stevens. David also edited the show and to play out this week's episode his Iggy pop with the passenger. Thank you for listening city. Lovers arrive arise through the bride.
How Women Can Develop More Financial Confidence
"For those fortunate enough to help the person who has always been there hero. AARP is here to help find the care guides you need to help at AARP dot org org slash caregiving brought to you by AARP and the Ad Council. Here's your money briefing. I'm Marie for Tolley at the Wall Street Journal in New York women tend to live longer than men but they aren't saving enough for retirement in recent study about half a women. Surveyed say aren't confident about their finances. The Wall Street Journal's Jr whalen talks with Susan neely of the American Council of life. Insurers about about how women can get better at managing money coming up first. Here are some top money and market stories. A new study finds that a single large player manipulated the price of Bitcoin coin as it ran up to a peak of nearly twenty thousand dollars two years ago in a study published online this week John M Griffin Finance professor at the University of Texas with background in forensics and Ohio State University. Finance Professor Amend Shams trace the movement of the two currencies between March twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen when the price of Bitcoin Bitcoin sword at its total market value rose to three hundred twenty six billion dollars. They found that about half of that increase was due to the influence of an unknown manipulator who who operated from a single account at bit fix the largest crypto currency exchange at the time the manipulator used the CRYPTO currency tether to boost demand for bitcoin leading to the price surge. If you have hardwood floors in your home there's a good chance that would may have been harvested illegally a recent study done by the World Wildlife Fund World World Resources Institute and. US Forest Service found that as much as sixty two percent of US wood products mostly imports were mislabeled. The World Wildlife Fund Said said would is considered illegal if it was harvested transported processed bought or sold in violation of national or international laws illegally logged timber is a problem alum for industry is making everything from furniture and flooring to musical instruments and sporting goods. Experts aren't sure how much would us stores is mislabeled but the US is by. I far the world's largest importer of wood and wooden furniture by value. And finally if you're wondering whether Apple's new air pods pro are worth the two hundred fifty dollar price tag. Our personal tech columnist Joanna. Stern has a new video out where she test. How the ear? Buds hold up against their non-pro competition. There's also a mechanical bull involved you you can watch the video up on our website. WSJ DOT COM coming up. How women can develop more financial confidence? When it comes to parenting there are no perfect answers? But that's okay because you don't have to be perfect to be a perfect parent teens in foster care will love you just the same for more information on adoption visit adoptuskids the US kids dot Org a message from the US Department of Health and Human Services adoptuskids and the Ad Council. The women live longer than men but women saved less for retirement and recent surveys. About half of women say they are not confident about making financial decisions. So how can women develop confidence and take control of their financial lives American Council of life insurers CEO and president is it in. Susan neely joins us to discuss so Susan you know in the past lower retirement investment by women could be chalked up to the fact that there were significantly more more men in the workplace than women. But that's not the case anymore. I let's focus on the good news. Here that seventy three percent of women at least are actively involved in managing their finances and their families finances so that blows the outdated stereotype that we don't have it at the table and we're we're not concerned about these things. Obviously we're concerned and we have a seat at the table. So that's the good news. We are less competent as you say and that could be for a variety of reasons but that tells us we need is more financial education and more financial literacy for women so that we got the table. We know we're making the right decisions for ourselves and our families so how to go about developing more financial literacy. Well there's several things we can do. One is just just to lean in on money talk. I know it sounds simple but I can't tell you how many women say this is A. I know this is a dumb question but yet that out of your mind. There's no dumb question when it comes to talking about your family's finances in what's good there's a whole range of things you need to be considering retirement savings. This is one of them. Protecting your family should the worst happen. Life Insurance policy short-term disability policy. That's the way a lot of us have income replacement meant when we take time off to have a baby or dealing with some other medical issues so those are the kind that the long term care insurance. Those are all things to consider hitter as you're putting your family financial plan together but here's the thing that women should know you don't have to have an extraordinary income to you. Have a solid financial plan. We actually have research that says twenty five percent of the most financially secure households with strong plans plans make less than fifty thousand dollars a year. It's all about the plan and going through the checklist and decisions. Ideally with the A financial professional who can guide you through this and making the choices that are right for you and your family. Now you've mentioned things that you have written that a financial planner is a very very very important. Part of developing a plan and developing confidence about women's financial lives financial planner can be critical vital and the their financial financial planners. All around you. They may be in your book club they may be going to the PTA meeting. You don't have to have an extraordinary income in order to access a strong financial professional who can help you sort out all the decisions you have to make retirement's one important one but so are the other things that are part of having a a good solid financial plan and you know women are the lead breadwinner and forty percents of US households but their money management goes far beyond just handling household expenses. That's exactly right. The money management is extensive but in addition to being the primary breadwinner in forty percent of households. There's a clear pay gap out there. Women make eighty five percent of what men do on average we take time off more or likely were the ones who take time off to care child or a sick family member so that results in lost wages lost retirement savings. And here's an interesting one. Women hold take two thirds of the student loan debt out there which means were paying off our long longer which prevents us from saving for retirement and being able all to invest into other things that can add to our financial security so there's some complexity in there for women find that financial planner. That can help you sort through all of this. And what can women do to ensure sure. The next generation is more confident with women than they are. Women should lean into financial discussions with our children. Your daughters of course and your sons as well make sure your children are getting that financial education early. The schools are stepping in to help. It's kind of a the trend amongst dates right. Now that they're at least twenty states mandate some kind of financial education in the schools and we are very supportive of that here here At the life insurance industry. Because it's another important way. Our kids get the information. They need so that they can be competent. They can make the decision early in their lives. That will lead them to have family financial scarily regardless of whether that's the male or female in the household. We want all of our kids to be well-protected well-protected or aren't that's American Council of Life Insurers C._E._O.. And President Susan neely on the line with us. Susan thanks for coming on