20 Episode results for "Wharton School Of Business"

135: How Do You Deal With A School Rejection?

The Scholarship Shark Podcast

14:30 min | 1 year ago

135: How Do You Deal With A School Rejection?

"What do you do when you do not get accepted to your top choice of school? That's we're talking about in today's episode. College is expensive but there is financial angel help available. You just need to know where to find it with her experience in helping her son. When more than seven hundred thousand dollars in scholarship money Pam Andrews shares? Is it vice. That helps high school. Students get into their dream. College and secure scholarships that will pay for it parents and teens. This is your place to gain practical easy to follow advice on the college process as well as tips from pass scholarship winners and now here is your host of the Scholarship Shark podcast Pam Andrews. Welcome back to another episode of the Scholarship Shark. podcast I'm Pam Andrews. Your host and today's episode is actually went from our archives. It's one of our first episodes episode number eight so I wanted to pull it out. Dust it off and share it with the listener because it's just that time of the year where students are starting to hear back and for some of my listeners. They're not getting into their top choice but You have to overcome that rejection that disappointment and keep moving on and I thought it was a great time to share This guests interview once again so before before we jump into that episode. I WANNA share also a book Called where you go is not who you'll be by Frank Bruni You definitely want to get that book and read it such a great book so many great stories and lessons and takeaways because a lot of times students think you know. If I don't get into here been this will never happen for me. And that's absolutely not true so we are going to jump into today's interview with Allison where she shares a little bit on on overcoming rejection and really kind of where she was Back in her senior year and that process from her senior year a year of high school to her senior year of college. It's the time of year when High School Seniors have apply to colleges and are waiting. There is an award letter for some. It's an exciting time receiving the news. Congratulations you've been accepted to. ABC University but for others. He's not getting into their top choice can be a blow. That feels like major rejection. How can we come back? After a setback wealth. Today's guest is going to help us have a different from perspective our rejection and share with us how to do just that Alison Ahlstrom here at the University of Pennsylvania. Wharton School of business created a pool service clothing that has allowed over two thousand six hundred girls in need each. Pick out to brand new outfit for free over the ask three here. Her thread. Fourteen nonprofit also has provided one hundred thirty girls with backpacks filled with school supplies and has given out one hundred prom dresses assist Alison got her inspiration from a book. She received as a Christmas present which told stories of teams. WHO had undertaken remarkable service project? We're live in how important close can be teenage girls self esteem and dignity. Alison decided that she would try to make a difference by making new fashionable clothing available. Able to girls in foster care or other situations of poverty well alison welcome to the show. Hi thank you for having me. Oh thank thank you for joining a started. Can you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and a little bit more about Greg. Thirteen absolutely as you meant as you mentioned on a senior at the World School of the University of Pennsylvania and I'm studying finance and real estate I'm also concentrating in our history And I'm really excited because I'll be graduating in May of two this year. Founder of threads thirteen. I found that seven years ago and since then the organization has grown immensely. We've given Over five thousand girls in new outfit across the state. We've held uh eightieth. In forty nine different feeds we have A storefront locations have been fiscal California. Held independent pop ups and Texas Minnesota Hawaii all over the place. So it's been a crazy couple of years but I've definitely enjoyed absolutely every part of them. That's awesome so it's starting something new. I'm sure you've encountered Maybe some noes and some yeses is obviously. Can you share with us. What your process was like? I believe you were fourteen when you started the nonprofit in kind of your journey and maybe the bump along the way and some of the things you've learned absolutely when I was fourteen I did not know a single person in the clothing industry from California and I have thanks to give girls and Foster Care Brand new outfit not used clothing like they weren't received what I did was I went online to different Clinton companies like sites that I found different addresses. And it'll big spreadsheet together ladder. Mail them off. I did not know if I was going to get one shirt table You know let alone my Gomel of routes at ten girls and by the way I got a rejection And the personal salary. I can't afford the shipping. But that didn't really affect me. I when I went in these letters back in two thousand ten. I knew that I knew that I would get many many rejections more rejections than I would get people to say yet going with that mentality every rejection didn't I feel terrible and it honestly made all of the acceptance is better right and I was really excited to get those acceptances. Good that's awesome. So where does this come from. I mean is it part of your personality that maybe the way you were raised with it. You're focused this on the mission. How were you able to really focus on the the yeses when you were hit with so many? No one that I always think about rejection is that they mean no forever. It really just means that there's tiny mismatch and I've seen that happen in come into play with companies like players accessories. I spend many different letters and they kept saying no But they finally said Oh yes and they're huge supporter of threats routine day. Honestly say that that comes from my parents and my family encouraging in I believe promoting the idea. That if if you're positive and you really believe in what is doing about it's definitely some SORTA faith in the future. Yeah that's awesome now. Let's go back to four years around around this time and you're a high school senior and you you're now looking forward to You know transitioning from high school to going to college college. What was your college process? Like schools. You apply to did you get into your dream school. What was that like for you? And and and how did having that resilient kind of help you through Through your college planning process well log dream to go to Harvard. Starting my sophomore year high school and I remember my high school new. I want to go to Harvard and everyone knew look like two years in I was applying constantly. I'm GonNa go Harvard when applied early actual action and it was deferred where a lot of other people that you're and I kind of knew deferred that my -application was probably. We've probably wasn't gonNA work out so I definitely hot a couple of months. I think the decision came out. Just out Gordon Club. Too slowly myself known right and yeah. I wouldn't much care on getting Harvard but going lean into opening day Opening my defendant acceptances. I applied so a lot of schools that came out on the same time and I g I need that kind of like everything else with red surging. You very good into some I would really hard in high school. I was caught of. What what I'd accomplish your country with my with my test scores so when I went to when I went on to open I really Letters are changing. They're getting into Brown into 'cause I got likely letters from limit February So that would definitely really really nice to have that to have to know that I was going to call it. Right actually opened my letter color. Go go out in In order by with the school that I felt least likely to get into his pen which we any looking back and then I opened groundwater locked in hey butter and it would hurrah Hurrah and I can. I Mom Dong Video. Why are they say to reject the leading the like? Oh at that time I did not. I think I could get it. I could get into what they did or did not get into Harvard. I think that one was one thousand percent relate. It takes for me for me. I didn't even realize it at the time just became keenly definitely a business and I run like a big Nathan going to addict school with definitely not really believe it was up to the Boston. I'm a lot of friends that lookout play score of the arriving where they are today. That's great that's great so let me jump back with reg the teams I have another question. Shen what what do you think for the future with Ritz routines and you have the you're working towards your degree you'll have your business degree in a few months and Do you think Guihua you're going to devote more time to this. You're going to enter the corporate arena. Like what would you envision after High Collagen. I work in finance this past all summer and I had an incredible time. I love my pants. Were definitely feel that when I graduate I want to continue growing Kutcher teams. I don't WanNa walk away from it. A whole turned on my welfare And I'll be pursuing quantities in time just to getting it off the ground and clinic Dating and then look what happens. I definitely want to enter the world of finance awesome awesome. What a nice clear goal and a clear direction or before we end? I'd just if you could just give advice to a high school senior. Who may be listening? It's the time I'm of year when you know those letters. Come in the mail or the the emails are popping up and so maybe they've gotten accepted or maybe they did not get accepted into their number one choice of their her dream court piece of advice. Would you give that high school senior. I would encourage anyone to keep an open mind. I wouldn't I know I know I latched on tonight. Dream school but at the same time. Definitely you know going other school by the Pride Care Program. So I was excited about a lot of the schools that I would probably do And I knew that rubber you know deep down. I knew that were rounded handed out. I would be happy important. Could really be positive and to be excited about your future. No matter what happens eighteen so many positive ahead of your life at twenty one. I felt fogarty pauses ahead and we so I think it's just important to remember that or rejection. The following a person the patterns so K.. That is such a good quote that one rejection does not define a person excellent piece of advice so but if just give me your website or facebook or what's the best way for people Listening to maybe get in contact with you or maybe just learn more about breads routines and maybe they're interested in doing something in their area. What's the best way to contact you or to learn more about what it is that you do definitely enclosed? Everyone could visit our what fights red dot or more about our journey where we started where we are calling and then we're from for some folk. They spoke dot Com and okay. INSTAGRAM was great. Great thank you so much. Alison I appreciate you taking meantime out of your your busy school year and started a New Year. And you're coming down the homestretch and I just wish you all the best and I'm GonNa be falling along. It's so exciting to watch what you're doing and the young person so passionate about something and her stealing it because your high school you have so many other interests competing interests and activities and this wasn't the only thing you we're doing and to be able to start a non-profit and have it sustained for so long as no small eight. So congratulations on that so much. Yeah absolutely absolutely and to our listeners. Thank you for joining the. I hope this information. Where the blessing to you you can subscribe to our podcast on Itunes at Bite College debt it or follow up on facebook scholarship shark cleese? Leave a comment or positive feedback. We'd love to hear from you and remember Tele friends and until next hi this is Pam Andrews which fellowship sharp but we help you take the fight out of college debt.

Pam Andrews Alison Ahlstrom Harvard High School Seniors Wharton School of business University of Pennsylvania facebook California Frank Bruni World School INSTAGRAM Founder Bite College Allison ABC University Greg clinic Dating Gordon Club
The Bongino Brief - May 01, 2021

The Dan Bongino Show

05:35 min | Last month

The Bongino Brief - May 01, 2021

"Dan bongino welcome to the bongino brief. I'm dan bongino so we played this video yesterday of joe biden doing what every liberal democrat and every really every democrat does promoting the biggest economic hoax in the last hundred years. It's been going around for a century. The hoax of trickle down economics you doubt me about two replay. The but it's important in light of some updates halfway. Here's joe biden. During his joint address where he again promotes the trickle down hoax. Check this out. My fellow. america's trickle down trickled down economics. This time to grow the economy from the bottom in the middle out trickle down there we go again now. I know many of you listening you. Some of you know. I beat these things to death like i used to beat to death the infamous clinton surplus. That never happened. The clinton surplus principiis though such thing. Remember to get my older. You have to be an older listener. I used to discuss it. All things drives me crazy. It's just not true. There's no clinton surplus ladies and gentlemen. I bring this up again because it really want to say it. It's as me off you. There's no such thing. There is no trickle down. Here's thomas hall again. We play this yesterday. I played again today. Because it's going to be important. Thomas sowell say this is a total fairy tale. There is no trickle down. Check this out trickled. Where does this phrase trickle-down come from. I don't know it was as far back. As the as the first as the roosevelt administration there is absolute. It is an incredible thing. It's there's a nonexistent theory. The constantly being attacked Some years ago when my newspaper column. I challenged anybody to cite any economist outside of an insane asylum. Whoever ever made that argument nobody ever came up with a single person. So when barack obama says in this past july quote we were told that prosperity we told them. Nobody told him. Nobody has ever held nobil politicians ever said who was that back. When i put this out. And i a nationally syndicated column. Various people wrote me and say well so and so said find me the person who said it. I don't wanna hear how you find me and show me where he said. Thomas soul is a legend. He is able. There are two words that are used inappropriately. The english language i hate. I can't stand. And i'm going to say this in the opening my radio show may twenty fourth. Monday may twenty four th when we start so be tree listened to words literally in unique that people use them wrong all the time literally when they mean figuratively and they say unique. When something's not unique. Thomas all is literally unique. There's going to be another. There is no trickle down. He says if i was not obama's people tell us nobody told you. There is no trickle down here. You want to prove hat tip again. Cole who email me this last night or this morning. Here's another leftist magazine or semi left this magazine. Trying to pretend trickle down exists. Here headline why trickle-down economics works in theory. But not in fact. By kimberly audio and eric estevez. You may say. Dan trickle down exists. Balanced dot com is writing about it right there. No no look at the footnote. Look at the foot. No this is important. This goes to show you how liberals propagate myths and suckers believe it the first footnote wharton school of business the trickle down economics edop or is it a drop in the bucket. You're like wow trickle down exist and they said it in the headline and they footnoted the wharton school of business so coal was kind enough to actually go to the wharton school of business and read the article here. It is the trickle down economics. Add up or is it a drop in a bucket. Dan wardens talking about trickle down. It exists does it because when you scroll down in the peace you get this arts of many others pointed out the folly of using the term trickle-down economics that no real economic model or serious school of thought stands behind. What has long been a term of art at the intersection of politics. Me here's a professor from wharton. Mr gomez here. I have a little bit of a hard time with the terminology and the idea of trickle down economics. Although everyone in the popular press has somewhat different characterization of what this means this is not something we have tested or seriously theorized about as economists. This is the greatest moment it is of there. I know my standards may be low. I'm sorry you know. I love economics. It's by passion. There is nothing. I'd like more than proving. Appoint through liberals who take their proving the opposite point. There's no trickle down. If they write an article on trickle down there. I footnote is an article. Saying there's no trickle down. This may be one of these things. I get it that i think is funny and literally literally that frequently no other human being on the bland this for just me chats me. It's unique to be. That's okay great job call. Awesome dan bongino. Show if you'd like to hear more. Subscribe to the dan bongino show wherever you get your podcast.

dan bongino Dan bongino joe biden wharton school of business clinton Thomas soul thomas hall roosevelt administration Thomas sowell kimberly audio eric estevez barack obama Dan wardens america Mr gomez Cole Thomas Dan wharton
Adam Grant

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

2:17:25 hr | 1 year ago

Adam Grant

"Whale Kolmogorov armchair expert experts on expert. I'm your resident expert. Monica Pad Man. I'm your non resident expert spirt Dax Shepard. Today we have somebody that we've talked about so much on the show and we had the deep deep pleasure to sit down and meet him Adam Grant. You've heard US talk about animal. Bunch of times on Harry's in American psychologist and an author who is currently a professor at the Wharton School of business of the University of Pennsylvania specializing in organizational psychology. He's so fascinating is such an interesting way that he looks at the world in. He's written a couple of books. Originals how nonconformist move the world and give and take while helping others drives our success now. That's the thing that we really got infected with lots of things but yeah we talk about that. A good bit your taker. Yes no always give her. Even though you're trying to prove why don't WanNa ruin it. That's not right. Yeah our shadows. Let's just say that. He evaluates are giving and taking status truly beautiful guy. I so excited that we met him and he's opened the door to all these other interesting people that we love. He's been so great he truly is a giver. The giver ever there is also. He's got a new children's book that I've read it multiple times in my kids. It's out legitimately an awesome children's book called the gift inside the box so please enjoy Adam Grant Dan. We are supported by. Bob's red mill. My favorite source of gluten free oatmeal. Every morning I just add that water. Stir stir stir. Eat in the car along Dr Monica and ate it all the time. And it's so tasty feel like a million bucks. After I I have no residual issues. I just feel very fueled for the day. Here's the best thing about. Oh Bob's red mill. They are teaming up with no kid hungry now. No Kid hungry is something that Persson I have been involved with for years now. And it's an organization that helps address address. Kids that show school hungry. Basically any all of everything you could measure about a kid goes down if they start the day hungry in America Today Day one in seven children lives with hunger. No Kid hungry is a national campaign dedicated ending childhood hunger in America through effective programs that provide kids with food. They need such. It's such a school breakfast summer meals and after school meals now as a dad. It's just completely unacceptable to me that kids live with hunger. That's why I support no kid Hungary's work to ensure all. Oh kids have access to three meals a day and I just WanNa think Bob's red mill forgetting involve our good friends. At Bob's red mill are proud to partner with no kid hungry to raise awareness funds in support for this important. 'cause learn more and get involved at Bob's red mill dot com slash. No Kid hungry. Uh Adam grant welcome to armchair expert. Thank you excited to be here. First and foremost let's Geek out for one second that we're both from Michigan in not far apart either either. Where did you grow up? I was brought home from the hospital to Highland Michigan then. I moved to Milford then. We moved back to that. We move back to Milford. Then I moved to walled lake then Southfield Southfield then downtown Detroit. Wow so elementary. And junior high in high Linden Milford in Highschool and wall bike in your West Bloomfield. Yeah all the way three okay. What Part Hardaway Bluefield Fifteen in Orchard Lake. If that helps you. Oh absolutely fifteen how my God yes. Let's see so you went to West Bloomfield high school guilty so so you were born in eighty one. Does that mean you graduated in like ninety nine ninety nine do you love Olga's Oh of course job read. Oh I wanna go to Michigan again just for that. Soon as I land in Michigan either drive straight to Lafayette Coney Island or straight to toss up. Pick your poison orange cream cooler also. Oh sure Monica. Didn't I make you eat some snacker. They were really good. Just saying that because you know it's important to him. Well that is a good thing to be suspicious. They were good. I like. I'm from Georgia. So I get edit. Monica is from Georgia. Were Crystal is king. You know the little tiny white castle burgers. But it's called Chris. I've never had never even I heard of it. We'll just for the record Christie the logos collar astrology. We'll do you tiny hamburgers unique. Michigander thing that we -plore allies. Everything I actually had. There was a linguistics professor in college. Who would ask you for or five questions and then could figure out what state you're Oh Michigan? He only needed one or two questions whole really. It was always the. What do you call this? Can of coke okay POB there cofre there and then. Which direction do you drive to get to? Canada was the O.. which is east right? Is it east. I always thought it was. Didn't we go south to Canada to get to the Windsor Tunnel. I don't know maybe south I think if you're looking at it. Oh Yeah it's either south or east now Michigan in general. How how long has it been since you live there? I left in ninety nine and then went back to Michigan for Grad School from. Oh three zero seven so I guess it's been twelve years twelve years. I wonder do. Have you read by chance. The Malcolm glad well books of course the aren't they great. They seem very up. Your Alley is a regular sparring partner. Okay Okay Great. So one thing that again I grew up more in the hillbilly area. More than you did Milford. You said it not me on saying that when you get to that chapter on the culture of pride I was like Oh Bingo all the way Bingo from where I grew up just like you can't look at a dude in a restaurant without having walk outside. I'm fine or if you lock in and you commit to. It could escalate to walking outside. Once I moved to California I found that was unique. Yeah that I didn't even Ah. I didn't get that right. Oh okay our suburbs. There was no culture of honor. I think there's a lot of status competition. Oh my God yeah have you have you read. Mitch Princeton's work popular. No so Mitch. Studies popularity about mental psychologists and finds that there are two paths to being popular. One is status which is is being cooler than everyone else and the other is being likeable. I think that West Bloomfield was very much about status. Not about likability right. Now Your Dad was a lawyer ear and mom was a teacher. You've done your homework. Wash his jobs. At least twenty people are going to listen to the obligation and I have a real quick question. Did he say Y. Some are status driven and summer like ability driven was their reasoning behind it. I don't think we know I think that in most for most schools and for most kids both paths are their options man. I think that for whatever reason I don't know of status was just more visible and we grew up in an area where there are all these symbols I russell was a lot of. SUV's yeah car. While I'm six years older than you and it was like yeah who had a Mustang Mustang. You're pretty much gonNA take the fast pass up to some level of popularity. I guess that's a Detroit thing I think so really thought about it before. We'll even when I was reading. I think he referenced that in your Article That's currently in the Atlantic panic. That is definitely true. That's true right and I went to you and I I like of course Amigo centric and I thought about you and I and I thought you know your popularity clarity's stem from likability. Yeah right yes I mind. Didn't that's really funny though. Because somebody says where you popular alert I always say no I was well liked but I'm popular sitter it to be the same as a popular was status with someone with a lot of cachet and status Atas. I didn't think I had that I didn't have that but I think we would use a definition of like how many Pe- if you asked all thousand kids in the school who knows. Monica Patterson that you know if twenty percents that I know who she was and then Gil Turner they said one percent. You're you know you're more popular. And then the question is will. What's why are you more popular? That's true okay so now back to your if you're a lawyer and he didn't do. Exclusively pro bono. Work probably could about Jordan's so we there is an ethos in the house or some kind of thought that was frivolous or silly. Why don't you have the good ship? Oh my parents were definitely anti materialistic. Think the Norman. Our House was You know where the old marathon t-shirts everywhere or triathlon t-shirts then almost begs the question. Why were they even West Bloomfield? I don't know actually because that's where if you're in Michigan you're climbing. The ladder was bloomfield's the last stop before Bloomfield hills or Birmingham. And that's it you're at the top right. Yeah that's right. I'm I'm not sure I mean I have no idea I know both grew up in Detroit. I don't know how they ended up there. I asked them. What part did they grow up in Michigan? They were both in Detroit proper. Oh they were okay okay so he goes just move out to the suburbs. We found a house right. It was in the same proximity to work for dad or anything. or where did mom teach semi mom taught in the North Farmington schools. So she did okay. Another lovely area. That's somewhere westbound right around the corner. So you buckle the fuck a cup Monica because we're UNIFIL WE. Neither of US went to an Ivy League school. So we're kind of obsessed with the status of it. You went to Harvard out of West Bloomfield high school. Which which makes me think you must have had like a four point three or some shit and a bunch of extra? I think about a fifth of our class did right here. It's funny I assumed and I was GonNa go to Michigan or Michigan state like everyone did. Yeah and I had a dream in September of my senior year of high school that I went to Harvard. I never thought about it and I said you know what I'm going to apply so it started filling out an application. Didn't really tell anybody in the divor right. You're all American diver. I was Barely good enough that the coach said yes. This guy is not terrible and we welcome him onto the team and so I guess that got stamped as having achieved something were you not labeled all American or maybe. I don't know what that means. Nine hundred ninety nine. Were you not josh. Inside of you. it feels like it no Yeah I made some list of top diverse but I filled out the application and you sort of had to validate like if you were Somebody would have to prove that you are good at music and they had the diving coach. Look at my video and and he said yes you go visit and then a couple of months later I got in and and was shocked. Yeah actually the the thing I remember most clearly was getting in wanting to go but then thinking I'm not GonNa have any friends there as opposed to when you go to the same college as all your friends. Yeah and so. I started running searches on America Online to find people who are going because you want to hang out with the people who put that in there profiled. While they're going to Harvard researcher I found a few and we started a little email list and by the time the sort of this spring pre freshman visit rolled around on we connected about an eighth of the entering class online and so we had an early online social network and then we got to campus. We're rolling Cambridge. Now we know each other. We don't need the online social network and we shut it down years before mark starts facebook us. We didn't have a vision anywhere near obviously what that became but it is amazing to look back at what was created and what it could have been. I feel like it tells me so much about you. I would have had a hard time making myself vulnerable enough to who openly be in search of friends I would have felt like that would have made me a Louisville or look desperate. I'm not buying this. You're the King of vulnerability now. After after a life and death illness that required me to get sober in. Learn these tools but no I I would have had a very hard time with that and in fact like what strata were you in in high school because we have the same paradigm. I would imagine I guess because you're an athlete you Catholic though right Hawkeye diverts too short for basketball to week for football all too slow for tracks we were we were. It was kind of the swim team in the band. Were in the same level of coolness. Okay tells me if you went out of your way to to land at Harvard with a Social Group that tells me that you were you were actively engaged in trying to. Maybe we'll show. I think I did it though in part because I'm an introvert spelt lake. It was easier to reach out to people and send them emails than it was too. I was really shy so the thought of approaching a stranger was kind of frightening frightening face to face I can write these notes. I like to write and then maybe I'll connect with some people you land in Harvard and you have some friends. And what did you get your undergraduate Joe Degree and so I said he's technology you did. Why do you think you were interested in psychology? I think it happened for a few reasons. One had taken an interest class in high school and thought it was just incredibly really interesting to get inside the mind and figure out what makes us tick. Yeah I don't remember thinking about it that systematically but looking back I had a lot of questions about why people do the things they do. Yeah and I felt like we scratched the surface of that in this class. I wanted to learn more about it at also discovered once I told my parents. I was thinking about majoring in psychology that my dad had been a psych major the lady. I'm a dentist psych minor in either ever told me really but it was sort of in the water so I you know I grew up as a kid thinking that normal families said things like self fulfilling prophecy. Prophesy I just thought that was part of the you know kind of the everyday lingo. Yeah so I think it was in the water quite a bit right in. Were you drawn because I I took one. As well. In High School I was drawn specifically to like the path holidays. Like I wanted to know about schizophrenia. I wanted to know about split personality. I wanted to know about so paths. I wanted you know I was kind of drawn to that. But that's not what you were drawn to not as much. I thought it was interesting. What really hooked? Psychology was the idea that learning things that could improve my life and other people's lives and so I kinda wanted to say if we all understood our own minds better than we could probably live more productive more meaningful lives. And let's figure out how to to do that. Yeah right because you took tall bench. Shahar's class did. We had him on the show. I heard that remember. He said that Adam was one of his best student student that he did say that in. Yeah four of us. Twenty five percent shot okay. So having him as instructor was that life changing were you on that path already dirt. He opened your mind to something. No Tallahassee big impact on me so the first thing he did was he convinced me to join a research slab and say look. You don't just have to be a consumer of this knowledge you can actually produce it I thought that was really exciting. I actually didn't know what professors did when I got got to college. I just thought they were teachers. Yeah and I think a lot of people think that probably the discovery that there was this whole life of creating social science. I felt like okay. This is something I want GonNa be involved in and then the other thing that happened was tol. was you know from meeting him. He's extremely introverted. And it was pretty empowering to see that somebody who is that withdrawn and not traditionally a charismatic person outgoing. Yeah could give such captivating lectures. Yeah and so I think it was an early role model to say. You know what I can probably expand my comfort zone in now. was that a discovery so you meet him under the guise of. He's the teacher and he's already in the throes of a lecture and he's probably probably very charismatic. And all these things did you go visit him in office hours and go. Oh wait this guys like me. Yeah I actually did it before. I even took his class to the first class. I had with him. He was the ahead. Ta and then there were a few other Ta's and I was assigned to somebody else's section but it was written up in the student. Course Evaluation Guy. That tall was the the best of the TA's and so. I actually manufactured a conflict. I didn't have one. I created one of my schedule so I couldn't go to the other section and then I was forced to go to Paul's even though it was already full. Ah I remember waiting afterward. talked to him and just feeling like wow this is this guy is not. He's not a big performer. He's not showman. He seems really cerebral role in introspective. And I think maybe I could be someone like that one. Yeah I think a lot of people would be shocked to know that actors can often to fall into a similar Yeah like you'll often meet really charismatic actors in real life. They're quite shy or they're introverted. Or you know all those things into some soup. Well I think in the case of many of those actors they actually are playing a character and I suspect that so as tall when he is the teacher I think he probably clicks into alternative identity house. Yeah I think that's true and I've I've certainly felt that as well one of the things I do in class every year now Is when we do personality I have my students. Try to guess whether I'm an introvert extrovert or ambivert. Somewhere in the middle and the classes usually pretty split so you know a bunch of people who will vote ambivert because most people are in the middle. They're like well this. Is this statistically smartest guess EMC. I'm always excited when they do that but there are a lot of students students who think I'm an extrovert and it is a performance right. It's it's I'm not an actor but my version of act one is though right. Yeah okay I'm not as skilled or correct right right right. Let's be clear but there is an element of of saying look. I didn't choose my personality so whether it's the you know the dopamine response that I have in my neo cortex that makes me an introvert or some other constellation of factors. That wasn't up to me but I did choose my values and I feel like sometimes I have to be false to my personality in order to be true to my values I love sharing knowledge. I'm really passionate about connecting with students and trying to help them in the ways that some teachers did me and so that just feels like it's sort of it's become second nature right you can reverse engineer it a little bit right. I assume your comfort level now as a professor is much different through just muscle memory but Yeah I mean I mean. It's way more comfortable now. I remember my first year teaching. I gave out feedback forums so I could find out what I can improve on and one of the most common comments. I was so nervous. You're causing us to physically shake in our seats. Their Mirror neurons remain antic but over time. That's changed quite a bit and spend enough time on big stages now that it started to feel a lot more comfortable but at first I would. I was pretty obsessive about studying all their backgrounds because it made them less intimidating. I felt like you instead of these super human achievement robots who are in my class. They're a bunch of people with interests that overlap with mine and I could start to figure out how would I wanted to teach would relate to them and that made it a lot more comfortable. Well you know he really emulated his hero because he was voted most lights teacher at Warton for six years in a row on the two. He doesn't eleven two thousand seventeen. I think so. That's exciting. So that's Kinda Kumar now. Is there any kind of data. I mean these conversations. I'm sure you get frustrated. Traded with them as well as where things lie on the continuum between nature nurture is almost. The crux of so many debates yet ultimately may be unknowable. Double right to some precise degree but do we have a theory that everyone there is there any consensus on where that comes from. Introversion or extroversion. Yes so it seems like a Fifty percent of introversion extroversion is genetic. Okay plus or minus ten percent roughly and that's true for most of the major personality traits and the best way that we know this is as you get these studies of mottos got twins so they share one hundred percent of their DNA but then they get separated at birth. Oh we pray for it in science bad ride right of over weight and so then you look at. When they're adults how similar their personalities and on average they overlap about fifty percent in traits? Like introversion extroversion. Okay Okay but then you run though you would think more writing to well. I think a lot of people are surprised in the opposite direction. They think that it's going to be all nurture and if you grow up in an introverted family you'll learn to be quiet quiet. Yeah as a parent. I think that because I want to believe I have some impact on my children but I feel like when I've heard about those twin studies it's more attention grabbing to go. Oh the both ladies married a time and they both worked at. Thanks a rubber band on their left. Ritz yeah that stuff is is very headlining. Yeah I in sensational and fun and tasty. And then I guess doesn't make headlines to say they're not all alike no but I think the more I in some ways the more interesting tests is the the reverse. which is you take two kids who are genetically unrelated DOPP them into the same family and then the question is what happens to their personalities stories on average they are no more similar than if they'd been adopted into different families there no more similar okay? So then that says the nature's got a lot going on they're alive interpret that correctly I would tend to look at it. I think you know they're they're pressures families that pushed personality traits together. Obviously sleep in terms of routines that you learn. Yeah but they're also pressures that push them apart right sue. You're familiar with the birth order research that says we like to do niche picking and you know if the firstborn borne is a high achiever than the second born will often rebel to try to stand out And so I think it's easy to see why even though you think you're growing up in the same family you're actually exposed. It's the different environments with different expectations. Oh absolutely and then now that I have kids I recognize traditionally you just think of the parents leading that charge right but in fact the conclusion I've come up with with my younger daughter. Is She could give a shit about consequences. She doesn't care about rules and when I realized was from the moment she was born and she's been being rejected by the person whose approval she wants the very most in the family which is earlier sister. So it's just happening literally upwards of three or four hundred times a day. She gets rejected by her sister. So she's she's got coping mechanisms. She can get over that. And so we reject her in some capacity or disapproving of something. She's like yeah. This is the four hundred and ninth time. I'm big deal. What do you think of that theory so I think it depends on each spacing a little bit? So they're only a couple of years apart right. Yep anyone months so my my read. The birth order research is almost the messy area. I've seen in social science period right there all these conflicting effects. Nobody agrees on anything but one thing that I think is pretty robust. is you see those kinds of reactions. If kids are within about five years of each other okay and then if they're further apart there's really no competition and so all the Nietzsche's are open all over again they're almost all firstborn eventually war. The older sibling takes on more of a parental role. And then the you know. The younger sibling feels more supported. And so I I think the similarity clarity to age. Seems like a big factor there. Well I thought what was funny when learning about you as someone that is an organizational psychologist would have dared to have three kids because in my experience experienced to always ruins the third two of them always gang up and destroy the life of one of their one of the kids. I I just have a sister so I never knew what the third would be like. I think there's something to that. I also think we were warned a lot about zone defense problem and how much harder two to three is. Yeah I don't think that's the hardest problem. I think it's math because when you only have two kids there's only one fight that can be happening three kids you've got three different fights going simultaneously you have the power our like fermentation right exactly. Yes Cater Avenue ones. Are they all the same gender girls and then the baby. Yes I feel like this is the most ideal. If you're going to go down this road I feel like that those two gals will nurture that boy. Definitely telling myself that. I Ah. I'm optimistic for you. Okay so you get out of Harvard and you have a degree in psychology and you got to Study with one of the great teachers that they've ever had which is a very fortunate Senate event for you and then you end up you Vam in Ann Arbor. Michigan might be the coolest sliver of Michigan and are. It's quite a neat little pocket. I think it's the best college rush hour on Earth did you go to Hash Bash. They're never never okay. Great this is where we started. You've never had coffee true. What the fuck? How could you like like you see the the whole world's drinking you don't think well they must be on to something? I need to try us. Caffeine is never had an effect on me that I can tell. Oh really at also a a super taster. So I have all these extra taste buds on my tongue and even the smell of coffee is disgusting chocolate to chocolate spies it. Oh my unclean rather no choice between eating chocolate and a pile of dirt I would choose the dirt. Oh aw that's how bad chocolate is. I wonder what he's smelling now. Fearful he's smelling us. I mean I worked. Oh where how'd you find out. You were a super taster. What do you do out? Is Our test their couple tests actually so the survey is you. Compare the worst taste you've ever experienced to the loudest sound or the brightest light often more bothered by the worst taste but then there's a there's a chemical called prep. I think it's there's a piece of paper treated aided with it that you can lick and most people can't taste anything but to super tasters. It's foul happen to. I happen to be at a psychology conference where a researcher gave these out. Five hundred the people in the auditorium. Everyone the paper nobody reacts. My mouth is on fire only had to run out of the room. It was so I'm so I'm so jolly liaising me. Too Unique. I was just really disheartening. Not that no no it's spectacular. I was really disheartened to find out that left handed people make up like ten percent of population. I thought it was so special and I'm not. That's not very big. You know big deal you know. No but that's a good thing. Tout Dax feels more stay tuned for more armchair if you dare. We are supported. Supported by tonal Monica. How does my chassis look right now? Folded up wrinkled. Now Looks Nice. Does it look taught. Does it looks felt it does. Do I look strong. Yes genesis tricking in the car will. 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So you went to you them. And you've got your in organizational psychology algae. Wh What led you to that specific. Trench of the psychology world. So I was. I was really interested in how he could use psychology to make people's lives a little bit better and I was working in college at an advertising company or actually it was a company I was in advertising role and I thought AH okay. I've got to figure out how to do this job. I've had no training burst. I have to sell ads then. The next heroes running a team. I had managed budget and motivate a staff and hire. Hire people idea what I was doing so I went back to the principles. I was learning my psychology classes and started applying them and they worked. I got better at my job. I it went from being a horrible salesperson to doing reasonably well at that job. I ended up doing a good enough job as a manager that I won an award for management skills. Oh aw I didn't know what I was doing. I was literally just going through my all. The psychology studies. I'd read and trying to apply the best insights and so I thought okay if I can learn to do this anyone can uh-huh and then I had a really the actual sales ability improve or just your your management of sales team and Bo Bo. Yeah so the. The first cheer went by First Week of trying to do ad sales and we had a ninety five percent renewal rate in the. Let's go travel books okay. I had zero contracts so maybe even lost some of their customers at three clients to manning refunds from the previous year granted which was not allowed to my country. All and then I completely completely turn this around and ended up. Selling hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of advertising and a lot of it was just learning to build rapport. Ask People Questions Try to connect with them amount of personal level not just in in terms of trying to complete some kind of transaction right. I was surprised by how useful it was. Did you employ that trick without. I've heard of where where you you basically basically get people to in a pattern of saying yes. Have you heard this thing. Yeah Regal like Bob Sheldon either four walls those technic- oh okay so you know the actual name. So he told Monica about it. 'cause they'll probably watch but I love this. I think people tried to employ it on dates as well tell me. It's it's creepy. The general concept is that if you WANNA be persuasive you want to get people to commit to something and then be consistent around it and so so I might start by let. Well what's something that either of you struggled to persuade someone to do. Okay Okay Mo- mm Oh fuck I have children so I mean virtually anything. Brush their teeth at that. Yeah Okay so can you play one of your kids. Oh of course yeah I'll be Delta Okay all right can I call you delta. No I'm going to do it anyway. Say very good start. We're going sure. Okay Oh okay right right. Yeah yes okay great so delta. Tell me what is your favorite food. Macaroni and and cheese. What do you like about? Macaroni and cheese tastes good. It tastes good What does it tastes like cheese awesome? Okay what do you like about eating eating macaroni. It makes me feel okay. Do you like that feeling. Yeah why because I'm still GONNA get back in and out compression. What does it feel like when you're not full? I'm angry okay. And you don't like being angry. No okay you like being happy yeah. Macaroni makes a happy. Yes okay what do you need to eat. Macaroni of fork. Okay and what about in your mouth. My teeth okay. Do you know what you have to do to your teeth. So that they keep working. Brush them up. Okay so you back them into you've you've attached something. They loved something they. Hey let's say it again. What was called the four walls technique the four walls technique? Okay so interrupted you because I was curious if that was one of the techniques. So was that one of the techniques you employed during this ad sales. I don't think so so you you were just building rapport. Which is owning a lot of poor? I would start by sharing something about you. Know about my background that was relevant to the clients but then a big factor was Was Social Life. You've so the idea that under uncertainty people follow the lead of similar others. So if you're not sure okay. In this case should I buy it or not. I'm going to look at what other advertisers are doing doing. And it never dawned on me to say okay. Here's our list of clients who are renewing. Oh sure they've all decided to go for it. Is that something that you might be interested in too. so that's this genius. These people that are these companies that I respect are all advertising. I probably should too right. I trust them. They have their profitable. We'd like to be like them. But I do you right when you walked sandwiches. I said. Hey We're both from Michigan. I wanted you to know like hate work. You know. Look cotton from the same civil aries. Yeah it's weird though that I came in and you wanted to bond with me. Oh why is that well. I don't know I I would think is the guest. I'm the one who wants to bond with host now. That's and you're the famous one. Don't you think this is backward. Yeah I actually. Don't I think it's his job to make you feel comfortable. Maybe right that is very mid western of you. Though when I always say I envy about Howard. Stern is that everyone is trying to get his approval. I don't care who you are. He is the King of all media. He's number one so even if Brad Pitt does his show he wants Howard Alaikum I have mortgage could give a shit if I like them so the little bit of a tactical disadvantage. That's so interesting advantage to have people need to like you. I don't know if that is. I agree with you if the goal is to get them to try to impress you end up telling a lot about themselves that may be otherwise one hour mellish or a practiced. I like none of. That's organic or good right. Yeah we'd have to identify in our study what we're would we go. What's the goal? And there's a name for what we're doing right now to it's called the breaking the fourth wall technique who tell me just made that up. Having a conversation goes on Lynn podcasting. Is that what you on fire for like. Oh there's there's something to organizational psychology in the workplace. Yeah that was a huge factor factor. And while I was doing my manager job I took my first organizational psych class and the professor Richard Hackman had this really interesting career where he decided going to become the world's leading expert on teams because he hated working with other people. This is true for a lot of psychologists right. We stand are blind spots. What's the one thing I'm worst at Jago? Go and study that right. And so Richard wanted understand. How could anyone ever work with another human being? And the way that he did it was he took all the careers that he was interested in. And said I'm going to live vicariously by studying them and so he'd wanted to be a an orchestra conductor. He studied symphony orchestras. And how to help them enjoy their jobs and also played. Hey better music January So yeah I mean. He studied intelligence agents basketball teams and airline cockpit crews and I looked at that and said wait a minute. I have never known what I WANNA do with my career. But as an organization psychologists my job would be to study other people's jobs that sounds fascinating. Oh that's so interesting. Yeah like in lieu of your own like norstar our passion. You could go study other people's barrier I like that. Can you remember what it was about studying organizations like. Oh Wow we could know that out there were so many one of the ones that jumped out at me. I was trying to think about the idea of personality at work. You're working with someone who is sometimes really dominant and authoritarian. And other times. You know kind of submissive and deferring to other people. How in the world could that? What happened and what I thought from setting social psychology was? Oh well the situation is very powerful and so you end up in a situation where someone has more status. Addison you and you defer you end up in a situation where you know you're the powerful person and you kinda stand up. Yeah like code switching or something exactly and and there's some of that but what we learn about was research on the personality trait of authoritarianism which is actually your consistent in your inconsistencies. So that authoritarian are always. They're always dominant when they're dealing with people below them and they're always submissive when dealing with people about them and that's a personality trait to say you you know. I believe that hierarchy is really important and I believe when I'm in charge I should have total control And I thought that was so interesting to say. Actually you bring in this personality trait to an organization and it changes the way that you interact with all of your colleagues depending on who you think has more power less power than you. Okay while we're on this topic because Monica I I just I went through and kind of remembered all the things we were obsessed with in his interview Osama we loved and you were talking about that power conventionally is thought of as something that corrupts people it was it was even hung in a classroom of yours as a child. But that that's not the case in you gave great examples of two folks that perfectly offically exhibit that. Oh yes so it looked power can corrupt people but I think that some people are more corruptible by power than others And so I I love. The case of a lawyer is trying his first case and the judge writes that he doubts that the lawyer has the ethical qualifications to practice law and that lawyers Richard Nixon. uh-huh this happened in the nineteen thirties. If I remember correctly so we could foreshadow a lot of what was to come and so I think that Nixon actually corrupted power right. It wasn't necessarily Shirley power that corrupted him and then you contrast that with another lawyer who also ascended to the Oval Office coup when he was practicing law he was asked us to take a case to defend somebody who thought was guilty and he said I can't I think it's wrong. And he was so upstanding that he couldn't be paid to go against his values in his beliefs. And then when he made it to the Oval Office he held office hours four to four and a half hours a day to hear the concerns of regular citizens. You might have heard of him. His name is Abraham Lincoln. Yes and I think that you can see in that contrast with a lot of the research in psychology has shown which is that oftentimes power doesn't really corrupt it reveals and that when you gain a position of influence feel like what I am now free to show you my true colors. See What's interesting about. That is when I was hearing you talk about it. And this becomes a little bit of an Overarching issue I have in general with summing people up is that binary doesn't really cover it. A quadrant doesn't cover it. There's so many the colors so in my own life I went from. Powerless biometrics and then getting famous. And then definitely exploiting that. Misusing that abusing abusing that. I'd like to think I'm now at a place where I don't do that. But it was a learning curve for me so is it also possible that that thing is fluid. Yeah Yeah I think so. I'm much more comfortable. Predicting somebody's behavior over a long period of time so the shorter the window. The more likely it is that whatever situation you're in is going to have a big impact act on your behavior and also the peer group that you're around. You're probably doing a lot of those same things. Sure sure But I think that where we start to see your values play out is you chose to step up off that path right and say okay. That's not the person I want to be. Yeah I don't know how I feel afterwards. So you leave you them in you go to North Carolina and you work therefore minute and then you end up at the Wharton School of business at Pan which we're still at and you wrote a book and I think your first job I probably i. I'd imagine some way leads to give and take. Is that accurate. Yeah very much. So so. In that first AD sales job I felt felt like what really motivated me was knowing we were a student run organization on a college campus and the more revenue I brought in the more jobs I could create for other students who are also trying to to pay for school in the same way I was and so without that knowledge I would have been a total pushover and said you know I. I don't really need to tell these clients that they should spend their money on our advertisements retirements. Yeah but knowing that I had such an important mission and that it might help other people it kicked me into a different gear and it made me much more likely than to say. Okay look I'm not Doing this for me. I'm doing this because I believe in this organization and the you know the the learning opportunities it creates for people in the way that it makes it possible for them to afford an education. You yeah and so seeing how motivated I was by believing that my work benefited other people. I got interested in studying that more systematically and I actually did my undergraduate thesis studying the teams that. Let's go and found that. The best predictor of the performance of the writers and editors who putting the books together was their belief that their books. We're going to have a positive impact on travelers flers. So you you started looking at givers and takers. And then there's also a mix of those two right and you found that in in workforce's in cultures pictures of companies that you have these different groups of people that you've labeled givers or takers and then there's a third one would natcher's the matches so tell us about givers and takers. Because I'm really curious as to explain it I gotta say I have no idea where I fall on. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah I okay so explain. What a giver? Than what takers okay. So first of all these are styles of interaction that we all mix and match throughout the course of our days in our lives But when I think about your style I think about what your default so when you're interacting with most of the people most of the time are you asking what can I do for you Givers orientation are you trying to figure out. What can you do for me which is more of a taking mindset or are you saying well you know can we can we trade favors and I'll do something for you if you do something for me and that that would be being a matter and I found that yeah of course you know we all have moments of each but you I think we all also know people who are pretty consistently to add value versus extract value from their relationships? Yeah and so. That's what I was trying to get up and you are also saying one is not better than the other like A. Obviously we all think being takers bad. I mean well he was at least you think well but you know I think more specifically you're approaching it from the angle that he was open to the notion that a taker might be better for a business that the outcome better study. Yeah obviously morally. I would prefer that there aren't any shakers in the world. You you set out on that hypothesis hoping that givers are ultimately beneficial to an organization. But you're open to the notion that the data might not support that big right now. Now here's where I think I might be able to bump up against you in. Are you a little bit. which is I am on some level in an rand? I believe leaving selfishness. I believe there isn't anything that's not selfishly motivated so even if I hear someone is a giver or someone as a people pleaser I think well they're just selfish but for whatever weird reason their identity is such that that's where they get their self esteem but it's still we're all in pursuit of the same thing like being loved connection and then we've chosen a path and right or wrong. That's the pathway. But we're all trying to do the same thing and everyone's equally fucking selfish. What do you think about that? Are there levels of selfishness of of course sea levels people Geneva no. I think it's actually really interesting debate. And I don't think I'm GonNa land where you think I'm GonNa land but I was just going to say a what I'm seeing as people using really terrible strategies to get the thing they want which is love and connection. But don't think that the person who's in the jacked up truck doc fucking blown diesel exhaust on a previous for a video in an affliction shirt and flip and someone off. I think weirdly. That guy is just as desperate and wants just as much for everyone around him to like him look up to him. Whatever respect him he's just not super grade evaluating whether that techniques bearing fruit fruit? Or not maybe or maybe they're big individual differences in how much people care about being liked and accepted and loved to ease their or how many people you need to beloved by okay but we have these categories in psychology agreeable or disagreeable these personality types in there seemed to be somewhat universal across the patent. It okay so even even that I still think at the core of agreeable disagreeable is the same desire in the same selfish motivation just to drastically different approaches so when I think about the the continuum of greatness I think about agreeable people as warm friendly. They're polite Nice Canadian Yup Great We were and disagreeable people are much more. Critical and skeptical on New Yorkers. Yes and also the more likely than their peers to go to law school or become engineers which is interesting but I think that when you look at the experiences of agreeable and disagreeable people there is a great study that W Moskowitz and Stefan coattail dead in Toronto Val places where where they would pay Jew or text you. This was in the pager days. They'd ask you what you're doing right now and then how much joy you feeling And agreeable people. Of course were happiest obvious when they were feeling loved and connected other people disagreeable people experience more joy in an argument than in a friendly conversation and they were. They were energized by that sense of conflict conflict intention but again. Don't you think the arguer is at that moment confirming their identity that what people like about me is that I am very savvy on my feet and I'm Nimble Nimble in an argument and improving the value adding to everyone which is I'm very clever and bright like don't you think maybe horror of it the think that's what's attractive about them. I I think for some but I think there's also a pretty big subset of disagreeable people who aren't thinking about the other person's reaction these are saying. Hey this is who I am and I need to tell this idiot that I'm right in this kind of psychologist so I would say Monica. Would you agree that taxes pretty agreeable as opposed to disagreeable no. I would think that when you were talking about. When you're talking about givers and takers? I don't know if I'm a giver taker but when I know agreeable disagree totally disagreeable I don't buy at all every time I've listened to your show. I hear off the charts agreeable. I ah well I agree that I do not think you're a taker at all okay. I'm not sure but no I don't think I I do not think you are but I do think your disagreement. I think I'm disagree. I do too. Yeah Yeah why well definitely what you say about getting energy out of the aid debate he has. We both do but wait a minute. That's that's something a little different so intellectual debate very different from actually Genuinely disliking someone. Okay yes I never never dislike a presidium and if I don't agree with them and also seem to hate the idea of being disliked liked to of course yet what are the hallmarks. Have agreeable though although I've had to evolve because again I'm in a position where a lot of people would want my intention in at some some point I had to go on and have to live with people not liking me. I got exist in the world with you because I don't feel like he wants to be like so much that he changes his personality. Saudi to match or to acquiesce. You don't do that. You're still you always you just want them to like. I want that version. Yeah manipulating manipulating yourself. which to me would be more of an agreeable person maybe would be like okay? This person needs this for me so I'm going to be that Chameleon Amelean well that that also gets in. Have you talked about self monitoring. No another trait. I think there's a case to be made. We should pay more attention to it when we talk about the big five personality traits traits but hasn't made it there yet so self monitoring is about how much you adopt your behavior to fit the environment and so if you're a high self monitor you're constantly reading the norms and then saying okay. I've got to adjust and you're you're actually you're an actor in everyday life whereas low self monitor would say this. I am and I am going to be that way regardless of this. Is Steve Jobs. Yeah off that I mean so far down on the low self monitoring end of the spectrum then totally extremely disagreement now is the girl giver. That's a good question. I think it depended it depended on who he was interacting with that you see a lot of the telltale signs of being a taker in the way that he took credit for other people's work that he demeaned and disrespected other people. Might I think there's a huge difference between being demanding and being demeaning and you cross that line yeah consistently I think though that there were moments when he seemed more generous so there was an award that the MAC team did for years for the person who most courageously challenged. Steve Jobs OPS. Oh and every year that person got promoted and so you you saw him receive respecting but rewarding people who are willing to stand up to him. Oh interesting stay eighteen armchair if you dare. We are supported by shutter fly now. Kristen just made the coolest shutter fly books of our trip to Taranto with five families went. Took a Lotta pictures. VIEWING THOSE E we. What are you gonNA? You're GonNa go on your phone. You Scroll Scroll through a trillion pitchers versus she curated all the best memories in photos made it into a book. And now everyone has a physical copy of that experience. 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That's twenty percent off when you go to native deodorant dot com in use the code. Dax so I think it was an incredibly a complex character. Yeah but I'm GONNA use him a couple times as talk about some years. Yeah yeah because he does seem to him is what we think of is like an individualist. I non people all these things so that this takes us back a little bit to the question about our people you know. Is there a core of selfishness and what I think is. It's actually. I love this research by David Rand. Who says look you know? We think that people have these based Darwinian instincts to be selfish as possible and the way that we get to generosity. Is We build cultures and societies that reward and have rules and norms around. How you treat other people then override? You're selfish instincts. Right what David David shows is often as the opposite. That if you put people in a situation where they have to make split-second decision about let's say whether they want to donate money to a charity. That's going to help children who are are in poverty In the immediate visceral decision they are more likely to be spontaneously generous when they're not even thinking about it because the natural response to that feeling of empathy or compassion Ashen is to help give right exactly even even if it's at a real cost to yourself right whereas if he gives you a little time to think about it you become more calculated and you get into a slightly greedier more selfish mode and so I think it's a mistake to assume that we have a fundamental nature that selfish and then kind of layered on top papa is are more evolved kind of I think we have both. I think we have some base instincts to try to accomplish our goals and self serving as possible awesome. I think we have some equally powerful instincts to care and show concern and I think that the ideal state for most people if they care about their own success or the quality of the relationships chips is to get good at pursuing both of those goals simultaneously. Yeah boy I was just thinking about you. Know we are designed we have hardware. There's a reason babies look the way wave a look. There's a reason puppies and kittens. Look the way they look like. We do have some visual signals of when we should be more empathetic sympathetic and helpful helpful right. It's harder to feel bad for Schwarzenegger than it is screech. Well we know that Greece did a porno bad example. There's a whole separate he. Let's let's let's assume they didn't do that. I guess yeah murked up his own experiment airman there. There are some fun experiments that when you're exposed to cuter cats or babies your then more likely to be helpful and but not just helpful also more careful you you feel the need to be vigilant to protect somebody who might be suffering or creature that might be in danger right. And I think it's easy to see how those instincts evolved and would have been selected for for and even Darwin recognized it right. Darwin wrote in one of his classic books that a group where people were unselfish and they were trying to help other people in the tribe would actually the outlast other tribes and that would be a form of group selection so in this work culture. Where you have takers and givers you have matches? The matches are people that are Ohama Robbie's code right like an eye for an eye. It's whatever's equal now. Explain what Monica is to me or or explain what you are. Because I don't know where I fit in that I'm I'm not sure that I'm so clear on taking her giving in the workplace so I think about it. In two ways one is what goals or motives And then the second is. What are your behaviors when you look at how other people perceive you and one of the things that a lot of us run into is we have a hard time judging her own styles and at first we find that a lot of people claim to be givers and then other people think they're takers and you're like okay? This is a weird version of the movie. The sixth sense everybody sales knows her a taker. But you have no idea. Yeah and a lot of people assume that's ego that we WANNA see ourselves and in the most positive light. Yeah but the research on. There's actually a says it's probably more about information that you actually the the the classic work on this is married couples so you put them in separate rooms and you ask them of the total work that goes into their marriage. What percent are you responsible for and then three out of every four possibly add up to over one hundred percent. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Somebody's lying and I think that men generally overestimated more than women do anything you're right. I do unsurprisingly. What's really interesting about? This is if you break breakdown why it's not because you want to think that you're inherently a better partner than your spouse right. It's actually you want to believe that your spouse says it's probably the same kind of great partner that you are It's more that you you were there for every act of generosity you did you were you. Were you. Were present when you took exactly you remember every dish and whatever whatever your heart is doing you just can't recall that so I think that makes it hard to judge where we stand because we just know too much about ourselves and we don't have the way. We don't have good comparison when people book but I think for me one of the easiest tests is to say okay when you meet someone new. What is your first impulse? Are you looking for ways that you might be able to help them. Are you looking for a trade that you could do or are you evaluating the person in terms of what could this person do for me I someone who's known you for a long time Ashton Kutcher. All Ashton said that one of the most humble givers then he knows the day that the two of you met well but again. Let's just I'm going to own. The reality of it is. I was penniless. He gave me my first job. I've seen as they give her as well. He is a giver and also he held the keys to a lot opportunity for me so it was. It was definitely my best interest to be in that role roll with him. That's probably true. So just want check my own benevolence in say he did represent you know what is a better but is a better evaluation of friendship. Ship is what we are. Now which is I. I don't need anything from him. Anything from me and Ya I like to think yes. I would still be happy to help them move into his house. You know so that. So so. That's a bad test. Because he was in a position of influence. The better test is at different points in your life for your career. How did you treat people who couldn't do you any good doc? Give them the time of day. Did you try to explain them or did you say okay. How can I open the door for this person? So there's like a neutral space a non giver. I kind of I feel like if I'm being honest I am neither like if accurate. I'm definitely not trying to take or figure out what they can do for me. I'm just like I just do what I do now. Let's clarify one thing could because this is fun is it on. The acquaintance level is in on the friendship level. Is it on this coworker. Level what is it all is just one because I'll say within your friendships. You're trying to send their kids to a preschool. They want to go to. You're going to invite your friends and rent a house so they can have vacation so you know these people I love that seems different. Strata I think the definition of a real relationship is both people blur givers and neither person keep score unless things get way out of bounce right which happens so is this is just within co workers. Maybe that's how I typically studied it. Yeah because I think it's where there's the most room for not knowing how to behave and then you start to see people's values come out a little bit. Yeah just seeing but I've also been opportunistic mystic and I evaluated when people could help me I think as well. I don't think that's a bad thing. Though right. You're you're supposed to be ambitious for yourself. Just not at the expense of other people right. And so when I've when I studied I think you're you're probably familiar already. With the thing I found when studying engineers and doctors and sales people in a couple of other jobs to that the givers tended to fail a lot more than the Tigers and matters but they also succeeded a lot more which is kind of a cool? Well okay helping others sink your career or it could accelerated tolerated. Yeah and the biggest differences between the successful in the failed givers were not about their intelligence or talent or ability. They were really about whether you looked out for your own an interest as well as trying to help other people. Could you give us a concrete example of how a giver could excel or or you know end up at the top of this chart. Yes one one of my favorite examples is Kat Cole. So she was raised by a single mother who had to work three jobs to feed the family food budget of ten dollars a day and by the time that cat turned fifteen. When it was legal she started working to help support the family so selling clothes in a mall and then working in a restaurant and she was the kind of giver? We're who was always looking for ways to pitch in so one day in her restaurant Cook doesn't show up and cat is the first person to raise her hand volunteer and run back into the kitchen. So that meals are served served and then a manager quits and cat takes it upon herself to start organizing people's shifts and making sure that everyone still has a predictable schedule. And you look at that and you say wow what a doormat. We see especially women are likely to get taken advantage of and stuck with that kind of office housework or kind of invisible oh contribution but in case. She ends up getting invited to open up the company's first restaurant in Australia and the reason for that is she's the only person who's worked every job in the restaurant run. All that time. She spent helping other people solve their problems. She was learning and building skills to solve the whole company's problems to capitalize on exactly ugly. And so you know she. Her career just takes off from there and by the time she's twenty six. She's in charge of corporate training By thirty two. She's named the President of a little company called cinnabon. Okay she's now running that and jump juice and anti ends and a bunch of other franchises and so you can see from her story. How clear it is that helping actually has A? It has a learning advantage wjr but that was a clear consideration for her when she helped write. It wasn't oh I'm just GONNA do all these random task that nobody's going to appreciate. I'm going to help. In areas that are strategically. She did important to actually getting our work done. And I'm going to do it in places where I can pick up new skills. I would imagine the advice could be. I don't know what your advice is but like like being a giver but have boundaries kind of like the same interpersonal things that we would want. It's like that's exactly. That's exactly what I would recommend you want to have boundaries around who you help how you help and when you help now people will respect boundaries people. Actually it's counterintuitive you. You think you're not pleasing them but actually admire you. They look up to you. They trust you more. They you know they know you value yourself. And then they're forced to value us. Well Yeah I think I think that's. That's something that a lot of givers don't realize until much later in their lives or careers though Where they can fuse early on the idea that I want to be helpful with I have to say yes to all the people all the time all the requests? You know. It's funny now that you're saying it's like boy that really details the difference between my mother and father so perfectly and my father was a car salesman and it's fucking kill we every man for themselves take what you can get steal L. A.. fucking guy if he turns his back. Steel customer you know and for many years he made more money than my mom and my mom was start as a janitor at GM then worked in the tool crib rib always volunteering for overtime. Had Support US three kids and accumulated all these bizarre skills. Not Unlike the story you just told and then ultimately my mom ended making much more than my father because she started a business and she knew how to do all these aspects in all much different And I was always just so happy I felt like there was justice in the world when that turned out that way. I think that's interesting. Finding when you look at the givers who fail versus the ones who succeed is most giver failures in the short term. Because you know day to day you are are sacrificing some of the time you could be devoting to your own work you are. Maybe you know helping other people get things done as opposed to kind of advancing your own agenda And that that seems like a disadvantage in the short run but in the long run not only are you learning more. You're also building trust Whether you're a taker give her a matcher. You want to be surrounded by givers verse. People tend to value those people over time and so I found that the giver send a rise. Yeah I've always thought you know in business you you can fuck people over but you can the only fucking over once. It's GonNa be a big score but you better be able to cash out. That talked everyone over. Although we have certain examples currently that confusing away with it you get away with it but that that depends often on whether they're matters in that system because matters of the people who hold takers accountable. Right the givers the more likely to let them get away with it over and over again matters. No My job is to be the Karma police wheel this sort of justice. If you're a taker is my mission in life to just punish the hell out of you. Oh I have I have I suffer from that a bit now just goes eight warmer thing. Oh back to that selfish thing. I think it's I'm acute lease suspicious of it because I happen to be married to someone who most people would agree is the most generous helper. Give her on the plant out and truly is so. It's your job tip protect kristen. No it's that I look at her and she is by all measures a better person than me much more generous much more. Empathetic always there for somebody buddy. But I am her partner and I'm not wowed by her. She's my wife twelve years and I go she's just as Fucking Ego Maniacal Zion. She just her. I'd entity is this. She is supporting her own identity. Neither bizarre better. I happen to get identity out of doing wheelies on motorcycles or rather self esteem. That's not in her bag. She gets it out at rescuing dogs. She's just a human like everyone else in their path to self esteem happens to be that. Got It okay. So this is super interesting thing. I would say a couple things on that. The first one is. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting psychological rewards from helping right. That's that's part of what fuels the people's desire to keep helping and if you're constantly stepping in pitching in for other people and it's draining you then then you're GonNa stop doing so right. I think we wanted to be reinforcing so I wouldn't fault anyone for either getting self esteem or joy or some kind of ego boost right out of being helpful. I think though that there's a difference between doing it because you want that boost and that boosts being a byproduct of the action So what you see with a lot of givers is yeah. It makes their day when they're able to help someone else and I feel this all the time as a teacher. The one of the things that happens in my life now is I work with a lot of different kinds. Organizations is often easy for me to find if somebody wants a job in their dream company. It's often easy for me to say student. Hey I actually know the person who runs that organization let me. Let's see if I can set you up an interview. And that is the highlight of my day. No question yeah. I didn't do it because I wanted to feel good did it. Because I cared about the student and I thought it would be really really meaningful to try to help them achieve their goals and then oh cool there's this kind of reward that comes after it which is a nice surprise? I don't know if this applies as something you see in in your marriage but for a lot of givers the joy is kind of an afterthought or an after as opposed to the driving motivation. And she she was raised in an environment were her. Kindness wasn't exploited and I was and so I might be inclined to help somebody but I have a pretty pretty lethal fear that I'll be taking advantage of so this is this is An interesting this is something I often see with with people who have kind of mixed excape matching instincts. Ms You want to help but you also have been burned a bunch of times right and you've seen people get taken advantage of and so there's a strong I wouldn't think about that is taking its more strong self-protective drive and I think that's healthy right. I think we we all need to have a spidey sense the tingles when. Somebody's out to get us. Yeah it's funny because I came into this thinking. Okay I can share this evidence about how givers can rise. We're going to motivate a lot of takers to become more generous uh-huh and that has not given his adding the impact. That's not in the effect the effect has been for a lot of givers to say. You know what I don't have to give up on this I was burning myself out or I was getting burned. And that's not destiny for a giver. I just need to be more thoughtful about the choices I make and so you know I. I don't think anyone has to be a giver to be successful but I think it's a more meaningful way to succeed. Split if if you could achieve your goals and elevate other people along the way. It's kind of exciting well. Well that is funny and counter intuitive that the result of the book was Actually Two D.. Shame probably the giver and it didn't shame the takers in a way that you have gotten a few emails over the last few years from people saying you know seven people gifted me this book and I thought Oh I'm such a giver and then coming taker okay. Now let's give and take now. Here's where you and I really got excited Ah Sam interview and I think this is where it all comes from that you then wrote originals. How nonconformist move the world? If I'm correct about this what we took from. That is that genius thing we put on a pedestal is not the product of quality as much as it's the product of quantity. Is that the book where this kind of Yes comes from. Yeah so the the basic thing. I was curious about was about how there's so many people in the world with creative ideas. I'm not just talking about about you. Know artistic creativity. I'm talking about you have an idea to improve your immediate environment. So you think the culture of your organization is broken. Or you've come up with a product product that you think is a slight improvement and you might WanNa go on shark tank Monday right and I think that the data show very clearly that most of us never do anything about those ideas and the big question. Here's why I think I came. I came on a few answers. One is we don't know how to judge her own ideas and figure out if they're any good right and then we don't know how to speak up about them and and get other people on board word and so I really wanted to write the sequel to creativity and say once you have an idea. How do you champion it and make it reality? And so I came in with his pig. It was a really clear expectation for me that original thinkers were just cut from a different cloth. They are daredevil. They love to take risks. They're extremely family passionate. And they have total conviction that their ideas are going to work out. And they're just biologically wired. Yeah to say okay I I have a came out of the womb with vision Asian. How it was going to change the world and I'm GonNa go do it and be a prodigy along the way? Yeah I found the opposite of all of those things. I found that this is true for creative. Scientists artists entrepreneurs you can see it in any domain that they were very consistently the people who generated lots and lots of bad ideas. The more bad ideas. You have love the more ideas you haven't so you have a better shot at something onto a good one which was cool. They constantly questioned themselves in doubted themselves. So you have Michelangelo fleeing thing when he is commissioned the Sistine Chapel because the task is just so daunting it doesn't think he can pull it off. You Have Martin Luther King Junior saying no I do not want to run the civil writes revolution. I don't WanNa be in any kind of position of influence in this movement. Because I'm trying to focus on my my job as a pastor And you know these are very consistently recently people feeling reluctance and questioning whether they can make it they also a lot of them. Were really slow to to get into pursuing whatever their their original pathways and so they had to have their arms twisted. They were often the latest movers. And some of them were even baked procrastinators and I just looked at that and said original thinkers are not that different different from the rest of us. Yeah it's very encouraging and empowering to hear that none of these people were superheroes and that they also procrastinated I mean the the classic take encouraging examples. Always like Ray kroc invented. McDonald's it well he franchise McDonald's and fifty two and as I've always said I'm nervous to get past fifty two because 'cause that'll no longer. We need someone older now you need to go to the physicists. Who Nobel Prize in their eighties threatened? He still hoped for me. Yeah but you you do a great job of you're you're like Amateur Historian on Edison. Right like Edison is someone. You're obsessed with. Edison is such an interesting example here because I always thought of have him as one of these creative geniuses every idea he had took off yeah and he had a a thousand forty three patents while only six or seven of them had any any lasting impact on the world and there were so many duds along the way you look at the talking doll he created. It was so creepy that it scared adults not just kit saw. Aw Nowhere he tried to invent. Although maybe time Chucky a movie about I would not chuck out. But he he he just he consistently spent his wheels on things. That didn't work and you look at that as an example of saying. Wow if if one of the most prolific inventors in history had to fail that many times in order to get a few successes. It's good news for the rest of us. Yeah it's very encouraging you know. He was tenured at twenty eight years old. When Young Thomas? Edison what's your thoughts on tenure. You're obviously you like the you have it. Yes I plan to keep it. Yeah and do you think I think it's good for the protection of spreading of ideas and freethinking and all that I'm kind of torn on it. There's a big experiment going on in Western Europe right now where you Yusei and professors to five to ten year contracts and the idea is then you give them a long runway so that they can really pursue big ideas. I can see that you know allowing going for some degree of freedom of speech but I worry about it more in in areas. Where the work that you do Mike it politicized right you you think okay? I'm never going to get a job again if I voiced my opinions so I think it's really important for freedom where it's even more critical in some ways though is for attracting motivated kind of curious people into the field because I know when I was looking et different jobs. One of the draws for me was at I somebody who always felt financially insecure dead. Yeah that that I'm going to have a job for life and ah I'm GonNa have that sense of security. It convinced me to do that. As opposed to pursuing lots of other fields and I think that's true for a lot of professors and so I think I worry about the the loss of talent if we abandon it altogether sense. You know what's funny is do you know who ted Olson is. I don't think so I could be wrong about this but if I'm wrong he then he's the top three I think he's he's the most successful at trying cases in the Supreme Court. He Got Doma overturned but he also got citizens united upheld so so he. He's interesting because he's been on the left and the right and we had the unique pleasure of going to dinner with him at one point and he got into a little argument about tenure teachers the professors he thought it was Horse Shit and how I got him was I said. Will you believe in the appointment of the Supreme Court right that that should be a lifelong thing so that people can go against against popular mob mentality. We need is a what if someone I put. Of course they served it up to him on the right so if there's a professor somewhere in the physical sciences that discovers we we are not responsible for global warming that couldn't get out on liberal campuses unless there was tenured like if someone really discovered that they could not publish that they would get Friday if not for ten years so there are situations where it's like it serves a real purpose. Yeah and the history of science full if those examples yes of huge paradigm shifts shifts that seemed to unravel all of side Hernandez Galileo Darwin. Yes you four walls him yes you did. uh-huh okay another thing. I want you to talk about briefly because you're great at explaining. Is this notion that people humans in a workplace and I would argue just humans. uh-huh traveling through life should have this as manuals. Humans should come with a manual co workers. You should publish a manual how to use you in how how helpful that would be so. This is a relatively new idea for me so I hope the Ted podcast called work life and my original goal was to say okay. I spent a Lotta time teaching things I already know. Two people right. What if I could reverse that and pick the the most interesting people and workplaces at around and go in and try to learn learn from what they do differently a little bit like if you wanted workout tips? You should go to an Olympic athlete. And you're trying to make the Olympics but because they know more about that thing yes and so so one of the things that I did was I went to a consulting firm. Bain that has a long track record of building amazing teams and what they're especially good at is they bring groups of people together who've never met before and all of a sudden they produce an analysis of a problem for a client that redirects the strategy of their business or or something to that effect and so they have to get the teams up to speed very quickly without a lot of on boarding. So you might get a call from an insurance company in Kansas. Saying you know we need you to to rethink our strategy and you have to pull from all these different people. Some of whom are currently working in Puerto Rico on a hotel company trying to expand. Yes and so they have to get really good at at teaming and figuring out how strangers injures can work as if they're old friends yeah and one of the things they did was. They had a group of managers. Who said you know what he's you buy a new piece of technology it's GonNa come with some kind of manual manual to tell you how to operate it right? You would never expect a car to come without an owner's manual And last time I checked the human mind is at least as complex as anything you can buy and probably a lot more more complex. Yeah it's a what if what if we created a manual for for how to work effectively with me and so I've actually done it. Since then which was one of the outcomes of learning earning about it so I wrote my own. I said here's what brings out the best in me. Here's what brings out the worst in me and here's how to work most effectively with me. And then when I when I asked what were some of those what do you want to. No one will bring out the worst in you. That's easy I can guess what I think someone someone that would be loud and aggressive of any variety towards you to motivate. You like if I was a coach and I was coaching. I don't think yelling at you would be a good. How do you know that that's true? I hate that I can just feel it. Oh Jeez oh you're so man I had a whole thing about I've never heard you say that. I don't think you've said that on. I don't think I've ever admitted before. Okay but yeah no I. I think this is part of being agreeable is I like to please other people and somebody's mad at me. I WANNA crawl into a hole. Yeah whereas if somebody's you know seeing my potential or valuing my work I cannot wait wait to do more to try to make them happy. I also would imagine I came at it more from your clearly. A very sensitive nice human being who really wants to make things better around around him and I I think that personality type where we grew up could have been easily subject to like overly masculine Alpha Energy. Yeah Yeah I think I think that's definitely a target for bullying. Yeah I think that's fair so you know it's funny now. I used to find it threatening and now I look at really that uncreative that the only way you can motivate me to start screaming at me yes but again you've acquired a lot of capital beate get intellectual degrees financial security. There's all these things now that you can go. No No. I'M NOT GONNA play that game. Yeah Yeah like you acquire era which is nice and hopeful. Although I think that I think I started learning it before any of those resources were available so I remember when I was working as a negotiator initiator people would come in and play good bad cop and at first it was what do I do. I'm just one person. There's this tough negotiator in front of me. Who's going to you? What kind of bullying me into making a bad deal? Yeah and finally okay. What do I know is as somebody? WHO's studying psychology about how to deal with these people what you do is you label? Will the behavior very gently and then you test your understanding okay. And so I had a pair of negotiators come in and they launch right into the routine and I just started. It's smiling and one of them. Said what are you smiling. I said Oh it looks like you're playing good cop bad cop at the they didn't know what to say. Because sort of routine an mm-hmm yeah tender camouflage off just the wind is out of the sale and I said look you know I I enjoy all kinds of games. I'm happy to play. Good cop bad cop in fact I will gladly give you my best bad cop impression because I feel like we don't have enough of those around here. Yeah personally. I'd rather figure out if there's anything that you can offer me. That will help me meet my goals. And if there's anything can offer you that will help you meet your goals and if you WanNa have that conversation great if you WANNA fight tooth and nail to see who. The tougher negotiator is. You're not going to like that version of me and it was so easy to have that conversation. Yeah yeah a boy. I've had similar ones where I go like. Look you got nukes. I got nukes. We could annihilate each other. Do we could do it. Let's do it I. I'm happy to do it or let's just get right to the part where we come to our senses. That's awesome well. It's funny when you were saying that people should have a manual. Well let me just ask. How does one get the best out of you? The best out of me I think comes from a few things number one use should be a self starter so I hate managing people hate holding other people accountable. I WANNA work with people who are who are intrinsically motivated and so you know. Reach out to me after you've you've you know if you don't know the answer to something you've shown you've done your homework and I'm really excited to say okay. Is there something I know that that could help. Whereas if you ask me a question that you could google the answer to you? Don't waste my time I think that that's been a clear theme. The other thing that went in there because I gave it to a bunch of people who worked with me and said can in your answer these questions about me without telling them what I thought and one of the things I learned was I had no idea whatsoever that this is kind of a Best Anna worse but one of the things that brings out the worst in me is when somebody has a solution that they present to me without explaining what the problem is I saw. Aw there's there's a switch that gets flipped as a social scientists. Say Wait a minute. How do we know that's the right course of action and do you have a randomized controlled experiment? Do you have longitudinal study. And I I go into this sort of litigating mode of trying. To debunk their solution. And if they would just come in and say hey. Here's a problem. How would you think about solving it then? Really excited to roll up my sleeves right interesting. So what would go in your user manuals while I'm way better with positive feedback instead of like negative like. Just tell me what you want not what. I did what I did wrong. Why is that like if I feel super confident? That's when I do my best. I don't do my best one. I'm scared I'm not making the boss. Happy and they knew my worse. I get self conscious. I start thinking about the camera. I started thinking about my lines. I you know by the way I I hear the agreeable bonus in their again person who gives a shit if I'm making the bus doing I'm doing my role I can be pushed to that point but but it's usually after we already. Starting the starting point got it. Okay and Monica. This is your chance to tell Dax how to bring out the best in you uh-huh yeah I think I'm similar. I like validation. I like getting credit for things I'm doing but I'm gone. I don't I don't like that about myself so I kind of want that to be the answer but it is. I think yeah I think regardless. I'm doing the same work if I'm happy happy doing it. It's generally because I know that person realizes what I'm doing here if I feel like I'm going unseen and I'm still doing a lot of work which I'm going to still do. I'm in a bad mood and I have a bad attitude. Maybe resentments are starting possibly. Yeah so I I like like feeling seen. I don't think there's anything wrong with a little bit. I don't know that I would expect anyone that gold the HUG I. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And in fact if when I think about the team that I wanNA work with that. Those are the most delightful people to motivate. Because you know exactly what fires them them. Up as opposed to constantly guessing. Now what do you think about this one thing it. I found that when I was a boss I needed to get. I find that my mom has us too because I worked for my mom for years and I thought she was incredible boss in many many ways but we have the same trigger which is like I feel like. I'll give people a lot of rope because I want a lot a lot of autonomy and ownership over what I'm doing so I'm trying to give other people that same autonomy and ownership which is not really a taskmaster and I get get fucking pissed when they forced me to be one like actually it makes me angry at them like cut them it. Now you're GonNa make me be the person I don't WanNa be. which is again I think some level of codependence like it's important to me that they like me and now you force me to do something that I you know? I think that's your discomfort with sometimes sometimes having to go into a boss mode. I don't think you like doing that so but sometimes you have to. You're the boss. And so there is a little but of well. Shouldn't you guys just figure this out without me. Because I don't want to be the person that has to come step in. But sometimes he got you and you're the the boss man well. I think it's interesting to me that when these kinds of situations crop up were I think part of the problem is that you're not you specifically but anybody in this situation but let's talk about you. You're too focused on your own your own preference as opposed to saying my job is a leader is to do whatever is going to to get the job done effectively and so I've got to be a little bit flexible and adaptable and say sometimes in order to be effective I have to let go of my identity or my values or right preferred way working and that when push comes to shove that's what happens right as you say. Okay I will. I will be the more demanding boss because I care about the quality of the work. Yeah and I think that for a lot of bosses if they would realize that upfront that it would bother them less. I think you're totally right. I think if you just went into going I'm going to have to adjust and I'm going to have have to manage each per having like being the parent of children. Basically I have two parent my girls differently very differently. Well it's funny because I think I think it depends on the job because in this case like in your case and Chris case they weren't trying to bosses and they visited in the position where they have to be so it's not like they they went to business school or they're trying to be the CEO. Don't go too. I think that makes a big difference. Difference people who want to be leaders and people who accidentally become one. I agree although I will say. I've a former doctoral student Daniel tossing who did her dissertation tation on this idea of the reluctance to lead at one of the things she found was that reluctant leaders were often the most effective leaders. I mean think about it. Do you WanNa be managed by somebody who wants to have power over other people. You want to be managed by the person who has no interest whatsoever in that role so I think that in some ways that makes people more effective. Active managers is to say you know. I'm not in this because I want to be in charge. I'm in this because I have a skill set or I'm able to get people to follow me and we he can produce something really great together and so if you've been brought in to work with sports teams. Yeah so I've been working with some coaches in GM's across cost the major sports in the US With colleagues to try to figure out. How do we draft players? Who are givers and also have the humility in grant to WANNA keep improving? Yeah and and then how do we also build that ethos in the team has been a lot of fun. It was interesting because part of the reason I got interested in a lot of these topics was everything I ever studied. As an organizational psychologist you get to zoom in on it in sports sports team. Yeah and so I would see that there were. There were certain players who were like Shane. Body in basketball is such a great example. Shane name is the guy who basically championships Michigan guy won championships at every level. Duke National Championship team. He's the MVP gifts the NBA A and discovers that. He's not as physically talented as most of the people he's competing against. He's accused of being too slow he can't dribble and so what a shame into. Shane starts to steady basketball statistics and discovers among other things that there are certain spots on the court where Kobe Bryant misses most of his shots and so he ends up adding value to the team. By saying my job is to guard Kobe. And force him to the one point on the court where he's GonNa break a bunch of Sean. How and you see see that and you think okay that that is the? That's the mark of a giver. I'd say I I don't have to be the superstar on the team. I'm going to find the one role I can play to make the team better and the funny thing is Michael. Lewis wrote a great article about this. He called a Shane. The no stats all star. Because he's he doesn't that's hard to evaluate really hard. We don't measure a lot of those contribution. Yeah I think in sports a lot but you see this in all kinds of workplaces you have people who elevate the team but there's no way to track what they're contributing yes yes it's not super tangible which is frustrating to me e yeah heels unjust now. Do you ever get imposter syndrome. And or or panic with the notion that you're being asked to solve a very nearly impossible thing to solve like you're coming in and they're going okay this person and is supposed to know how to make all work cohesively in. That's a very big undertaking that. It's just a very daunting task. Do you ever go like. Oh boy can I cash the check my ass just wrote I've never said that Not Quite like like that. I think the way it plays out is sometimes. I'll get contacted by people who have just. They've accomplished so much that it's hard for me to imagine that anyone knows was anything that they don't know right or that you know. I belong in the same room as them even. Yeah but then the thing that that occurs to me pretty quickly is to say okay. Hey you know. What are the cool things about organizational psychology? Is I know nothing about any particular organization but I see the same patterns happen in so many different collaborations I mean yeah and I also have this massive library of evidence that can give me frameworks and data points to say. Oh we'll have you tried this because we've we've tested this and and three other organizations and here's what happened. How do you think this would play out for you? There's a set of resources available there that they make it easy to be helpful but yeah I've definitely felt that I think one of the clearest times was working with Google and they said okay. We want you to talk for a global team. And you're going to speak right after Larry Page and your our question is if the organisational psychologists ran google. What should we do differently? I studied this. I never would have built google. Yeah Ah but then I think okay. We'll Larry Sergei engineers and they've never studied organizational behavior. And there's actually a lot that we know that might be relevant to them and so all of a sudden like oh I do things to say about this Yeah so is it more like in many cases for lack of a better better way to say it. Is it easier. Identify the negatives than to identify the positives in that it's easier to see what potentially is broken than it is to see what could be infinitely helpful that make any sense. Yeah it does know that. I've seen a big difference there so in the the Google case one of the things that striking to me was almost every great leap that they had made did was the result of a collaboration. So maybe I think g mail was invented by a sole engineer but otherwise it was either a dynamic duo or whole team and they came up with their their biggest I innovations and yet they hire individuals they promote individuals they fire individuals and add. Read all this research on. How if you WANNA take team seriously? You might want to question that and say well. What if we actually if team did great work we promote the whole team? What if we ran a lift out and we found successful team from another organization and instead of hiring the one person we thought it was star there we brought in the whole team which seemed like a good idea because there's evidence both from Wall Wall Street analysts and also from cardiac surgeons that if they leave their team's performance drops dramatically even if thought to be individual superstars? Well in isn't even those goes to Larry and Sergei or whatever they themselves are like crazy famous team right they. They're much greater than the sum of their parts. That was that was the thought. And so you know you look at that that and you say we'LL I. I actually see the kind of the strength and the weakness at the same time. which is you have these moments of greatness but you're not organizing your company to unleash them as often as you could right and so let's talk about how we could do that? And then Google ended up doing a big study of what may their high performing teams different from the rest and then training all of their managers across the whole company to try to improve the performance of those who are struggling. Yeah to super cool. It's very cool. Are you familiar with the structure of Aa a little a bit. Not as familiar as you are. Okay I find a way to have some crazy magic sauce in that. It is an organization organization of sorts. Right and it's been around for. I don't know seventy eight years now. There's no leaders. No one's in charge. No one knows more than anyone else in the thing thrives and has results for some segment of the people that try it right. I've often been curious. Why nothing's modeled modeled after it? The thing is anyone in organizational psychology world interested in the fact that this thing has existed in a pretty peaceful state in performing Lena task but without any fascinating I have not seen anyone. Ask that question. Okay because to me when I look at religions and stuff yeah I think it's almost a waste of time to kind of figure out whether they are implicitly. Better or worse or Florida. I think we're always seen is the human element in any organization sation. Yeah that has been empowered and then exploits that and then you know. The system seemed to all kinds of erode or corrode around that empowerment of a member. Yeah so I can think of to places where we study. Things that are similar one would be in in studying strong cultures and how you create an organization where everyone agrees on what the values are and they're so passionate about them that they actually enforce them near to peer as opposed to needing some boss to control them right and then the other replace we study. This is in self management so actually I did a podcast episode where I went to a company that has really gone to the extreme on this I was interested. Sit in. Could we create a world without bosses so I went to this tomato paste. Company called Morningstar where they produce something like a quarter of the tomato paste in America and they make hundreds of millions of dollars a year. They've been running for thirty years and they've never had a single boss. Wow God does that work that be real and it turns out that one of the things that happens when you arrive there is. You're given the job description of the person who did your role before you and then after you do it for a little while you get to rewrite the job description and all you have to do is explain here the tasks I want to do. And here's how they advance the mission. You take that to the five to ten people that you have to work most closely with and then if they approve it. You've just reinvented your job. And so they consistently evolving that you noted there promoting themselves in a certain way. Yeah and no I mean looms. Last time you saw job description that was actually written for with one person who was doing it at that moment. Rise a great way to let people keep customizing their work and then you're reviewed on whether you follow through by your peers on all of your commitments. And and how does he behaved people. How do they decide who gets passed? They vote is a company based on your contribution which is remarkable. What hiring and firing they all all decide they all agree on hiring when it comes to firing? Can I ask how many employees are there because I could see this getting logistically impossible. How many they have right now? They grow a lot during the kind of the season and then they shrink in the off season hundreds if not thousands okay and one of the things they do for firing is. If I think you're doing a bad job I would say you know Dax you're not living up to the commitments you made so I think you're still leave and then you can either agree and leave or you can say no I disagree and then if if we disagree we actually would then appoint a we agree on a group of neutral mediators. Alcoa come and talk to us. And then they'll give us their opinion but you still have the chance to agree or disagree and if you still reject eventually the whole company would vote on it and they might bring in the founder to make the final decision all my down. I'm not saying every organization you work this way but when I think about a this is kind of the closest yes model I can think of. And there's the same level of individual ownership rate that you said. Hey these are the steps that I want to take and then you expect that other people will hold you accountable for that yet. The only thing there is this book. It's the only asset of ASO's. Is this book that everyone seems to agree as they should follow but he had is. It just fascinates me that the guy who has six hours of sobriety is just as much much of an authority on. That book is a guy with thirty years no hierarchy and their sponsors right which you choose. Yeah you're still picking picking someone who you think has a little bit more experience in sobriety. The new. Yeah Yeah you're supposed to find someone who has what you want so that you can get. Yeah they they have. I think this needs to be studied from an organism. I really do. I think there's something because when I get in fights with people about their particular religion I'm like there's gates like why why does some echelon have information that everyone else doesn't. I don't understand Christians. There's a there's a text. Why would one person understand the text more than another person wiser a guy with a robot telling me what the text says? It's right there. It's not like hidden. It's not even the Torah that you're you know now the irony understand it in somehow I always end up bringing into that. Okay lastly I I know the name of it. I'm not GonNa ask you so work life podcast. How often does that come out? Because I want people to listen to that. Oh thank you. That's very kind of you. We do ten episodes year. Oh okay that's manageable. Yes very manageable. So I pick the topics that I'm most excited to dig into and I picked the people who I think have mastered them in the workplaces that are doing them differently and then try to figure out how we can all make work suck a little bit less. Oh that's fantastic work life in where you had in your seasons. So we've done two seasons and were in pre production season three right now okay great so. When will that come out? You don't know February. It looks like February okay. Great lastly I read your article and it's really funny because now that we've been talking for two hours. I agree with nearly everything you said. You didn't know when I read. Stop trying to raise successful kids. which already I love the title? which is in the Atlantic? Is it right now. I feel like it was the December issue. Okay Stop trying to raise successful kids. There were a couple of things in here that I was like. I don't know that I agree with your. I love the statement. Let's to start there because I think the notion of success we've had we had a really great guy who teaches at Harvard. Come in and talk about what is success and I like challenging the notion of success I think fulfilment elements should be in that mix. I think there's a lot of things that we don't consider when we think of what a successful person so that already. I love my wife and I fight about this. We're in a current debate. We have ever made a decision but we have an ongoing debate or my daughter. The oldest one loves to dance. She's clearly got some kind of skill for and she goes. We should get. We should put you in classes. And I'm like what is she just likes to dance or what if that's it. What does this have to have a next stage? Can She just like the dance. I don't know if I'm right or wrong. Word words still in the debating phase of it. No decisions have been made but part of me goes no. That's the whole thing gathering class. Then she goes to another level then all of a sudden there's Evaluated now this thing. That's just as joyful thing. I don't know so anyways so the title. I really like. Tell me why you wanted to write your obviously the father of three kids. That probably is part of the explanation. Yes so my wife Allison and I have been trying to figure out. How do we raise kids? Who are givers We want our kids to be kind and carrying. Yeah and I got an about that a lot after giving take like I duNNo. I study adults at work. Let me think about children. Don't want to be one of those psychologists who screws up our kids. Oh yes but Eventually we just about a year ago we decided we were going to write a children's book which which just came out? It's called the gift inside the box. Oh great and that's all right now. Yeah just just out and we were just talking a lot about okay. You know the the process of writing the book for US was about a mysterious gift box that that is kind of grabbed by all these entitled Kids Moore used to Amazon packages arriving at their door. Of course that's for me. Yeah and eventually the the gift box wants to go to the kid who wants to gift it to someone else and so we were talking about almost like a zone episode could be very well could but we were talking a a lot about okay. How do we take the ideas? We were trying to communicate in this book and teach them to our kids and really instill them and so I've been reading a lot of the research. Alison had been disagreeing agreeing with various points in the research. And eventually we said you know what one of the biggest problems is that parents think that in order to be a high achieving kid you have to to be totally self absorbed or self focused and even parents who don't think We just live in a society where you know you. The questions you ask dinner are about. What grades did you get? How many goals did you score? I love that part and thank you and we. We never really thought to ask. Who did you help today? And who did you. WHO WHO? Who helped you to show that we care about these values and so I think that it just seems like a lot of parents don't know how to make that a priority They don't know how to teach their kids to be inclined and concerned about others and so without all right. Let's let's sit down and see if we can explain what we've been learning and trying to practice. What what did you disagree with? Okay so one of the things I I found triggering. I'll use the word Okay in some parenting circles for example. There's a movement against intervening when preschoolers are selfish in their play. These parents worry that stepping in might prevent kids from learning to stick up for themselves and say that they're less worried about the prospect of raising adult who doesn't share than one who struggles to say we know what I disagree with your interpretation of why not intervene so my kids go to preschool. We don't intervene. The whole goal that preschools conflict conflict resolution. So have you come in yell at me. Mike Stole Your Shit. I'll say did you tell Mike you don't want your stuff so so I won't intervene but not for the reason I I'm afraid my kids. It's not gonNA stick up for himself just because I want them to leave with the skill set so you're trying to teach self reliance and conflict resolution active dialogue because they're going to be in a million million conflicts. And if I solve them all or I come in and go you should have been sharing. You should intuitively want to share your thing. I feel like that's a little too much to ask of a a four year old. Got It and I also think that's not actually my goal. My goal is to force them to sort this out and if it starts going off the rails and people get physical. Of course I'll get involved it just shy of that. I'm good with that I I love I would love it if If every kid got got that opportunity because I I also I think it's all as the tattletale problem Have to learn to confront each other directly. Yeah the movement that that we were reacting to you specifically is parents saying you shouldn't teach kids to share air because if they don't wanNA share then they're learning to kind of assert their own boundaries. Know about you you teach kids that they can stand up for themselves and share our you teach kids that not everything in life is zero sum and that when you let one of your friends play with a toy oy that's not some cosmic loss for you. They've just one and gotten ahead right you just you let them experience the joy of playing with your toilet and then you're going to get it back. Yeah and so we were just reacting to the idea that you know that that sharing is somehow a sign of weakness. US It gets ridiculous. Yeah okay I completely agree with that. I got to give because I was harsh on my wife about her having ego I want to say God bless her she's raising our kids Because she does all these weird things where she's like just try once if someone likes the toy and offer it to them when they leave and so my kids have got to experience this the joy of having given someone joy which I don't don't know that I would have had that instinct in so they've had a bunch of practice now of like making people's Day now. I think we have another problem where they try to give everything away. It's pretty damn cute. So sweet very sweet and I think it's easier to adjust from that then to say I raised entitled Selfish Kid and now I got to change their values right. Okay now. Here's another one first of all. I've loved the article so I'm only say they've also wanted to the fact that I read it like a horoscope genevieve will read horoscopes. It's like the things that they want to be true. They find and then they just kind of shovel way the other so all this stuff that confirm my own point of view I was like oh I love and I was just kind of jealousies of the eighth graders. Peter's with the greatest academic achievement moreover are not the ones who got the best marks five years earlier. They're the ones who were rated most helpful by their third-grade classmates and teachers So I imagine that is a true statistic. I don't challenge statistic but I do remember reading an article about creative. Kids are the hardest on teachers. They're the most difficult. They're challenging this yaw that you're laying in front of them and again me as a challenger. I was like wait a minute. Of course of course kids who teachers like more. Do better in school. Because they're going along with the program Got It so I kind of a knee jerk like. Yeah so the there is evidence that the most creative kid in class is the least likely to be the teacher's pet right there. I never knowing the program. Stop raising your hands. Not You taking us off schedule. So this effect has been replicated a few different times and sometimes it's done with pure ratings of helpfulness as well. Okay so I would think about creativity. Access is separate from the helping or kindness access. Okay and what we're seeing. Is that the kids who are are helpful. Either because they have the natural instinct or because they've been taught to be that way who knows. A few things are happening number one. They have a purpose for learning. That goes beyond just their own immediate personal goals. They can say okay. The more I learn the more I can can share with other people and that sort of connects them to community as opposed to feeling isolated and that's motivating for them. A second thing that's happening is when they spend all this time I'm helping others. They're actually improving their own learning and we we all know that the best way to learn something is to teach it and so these kids are actually doing themselves a favor by explaining inning stuff to their classmates and kind of trying to fill the gaps in their understanding. Yeah and I think you can do all that. And also be the creatively disruptive kid okay. I like to be helpful but I also want to march to the tune of my own drummer. who were I okay? Great does all this support this kind of notion that there is a approach for kids. There seems to be a little bit out of a desire for people to create the perfect kind of person kid. And what I argue sometimes is that no oh and this is again a frame it another way to is I often get frustrated with Republicans and Democrats that they actually think that if the whole country was either Democratic or Republican that would be a perfect country. I argue no. We totally need each other to reach some rational middle ground. So doesn't the world needs Steve. Jobs was and mother Theresa. Isn't that what this world requires for us to function. Don't we need some asshole selfish fucker. We don't okay tell me why so. Okay Steve Jobs if he were less of an asshole would even kicked out of his own company in the Mid Nineteen Eighty S. How much more could apple have done between eighty five and ninety seven? Maybe Steve Jobs need to go off and take a different perspective and refreshes thinking maybe he needed to evolve and become a little bit more mature and a little bit less. That's nasty Actually I talked to Walter Isaacson about this so he interviewed what two hundred people who were closely with jobs knew him. Well the guy who wrote the black and he said the most consistent insistent theme was people said Steve Jobs could have been kinder That it would cost him nothing to show a little bit more respect to other people and they would have worked that much harder for him because they felt like he was giving them credit. They felt like they were valued and loved. And I think that when people say well you know Steve Jobs look at all the success he achieved but he was an asshole. I would say yeah. He achieved a lot of that success. Not because he was an asshole but in spite of his ASS Hillary in insistence dynamics hammocks. There's a term Equa finality which is clunky but it means many eight routes to the same end okay and any complex system by definition as Equa final. All right. You're you're in a maze. As opposed to a tunnel okay and so if you think about that okay well one way to be you know to have extremely high standards is to be a tyrant different. Yeah but that's not the only one and I think we all have lots of degrees of freedom to say okay. What are the different ways that I could achieve this goal and I would love to see more people say all right? You shouldn't idolize Steve Jobs. You should idolize a specific value or a specific skill or behavior that he had and I think his you know he had a superpower are it was clearly obsess I mean he was obsessed with perfection. The hit the probably the highest standards of anybody in his industry and so great. Let's take that and now let's figure out all the different ways we can make those standards of reality in in our own lives. Give because there's does seem to be this weird equation where it requires one person. Listen to go. No it's possible and everyone else goes. No it's impossible. There's naturally going to be friction when you talk about a lot. In your first book there is friction in that but it does require one person to hold firm and go no. It's possible and I just got to get you all buy into that by Hook or crook. I don't I'm not the best strategies you do that your profession but is there room for someone to be going. No it's possible you must join me and still be kind and it's always hard for me to to take specific examples because I think most human beings are flawed. Sure and you know anybody that I say was a great giver. You'll find a moment. Where they they probably seemed more like a taker or they were had a perverse sexual life? Ya Lots of ways to disqualify someone. Yeah and then. They're canceled and I never hear from them again. I would I would rather do is say. Let's look at the evidence and so one of my favorite studies looks at CEO's of computer hardware it's offer companies and you can either get them rated by their CFO's on whether they put other people's needs above their own whether they care about their own teammates mate's wellbeing as opposed to just profits or you can also look at indicators of whether they're takers like do they have giant photo themselves and the company's annual report do they pay themselves a lot more than everybody else in the company. Do they talk about the company's success using words like I in me and when you do that what you see. Is that the takers actually. Their companies have more fluctuating volatile performance. So they're overconfident. They tend to swing for the fences. They take huge risks. That you're lucky for awhile. Yeah sometimes is it pays off in the long run. They end up making systematic mistakes and they lose they bleed talent. Because if you're a star you don't WanNa work for a taker forever and screw this. I'M GONNA go work for somebody great whereas the givers have much more sustainable long term performance they earn loyalty. Even there people leave they start referring other people they often boomerang and will return and people feel like okay. I'm working here for not only a mission. I believe in but a person I believe in and I look at that evidence I say okay. We see that across hundreds of companies. I don't need one individual role model. WHO's an amazing giver? I have is the experiences of lots and lots of people cumulated and and that tells me it's it's very possible I think a lot about Have you do you know radios work at bridgewater no on on radical transparency and idea. Meritocracy this is so spent a lot of time studying this hedge fund that spin wildly successful and one of the things they do is they say. Look it's actually a a mark of of caring about someone to challenge them because it says I believe in your potential care about your success. I'd done a podcast episode there on how to love criticism I would love to learn them. Love CRUSOE's release to crave it even if you don't love me yeah yeah Knowing you need it but the big thing I took away from that was they had bill the whole culture where they said. Look if you say something nasty about a person behind their back. You're doing them a disservice. Because there's a potential learning opportunity that you're depriving them of uh-huh and so if they catch you backstabbing someone. They will take you in front of that person and say please front stab them. So then they can. They can find out what the feedback was. Yeah and they've done that with the entire the company buying in to say no one has the right to hold a critical opinion without speaking up about it. If we all follow that principle we can say look. I think you did a really really crappy job today and you know here are the ways that you could be better and I could hear that and say that's coming from somebody who's like a sports coach. Yeah they're trying to help me improve. Yeah Yeah and I I would love to see more collaborations work that way. I guess if it's happening to everyone would hopefully you're taking it personal. It also one of the things you learn to do there as you learn. I'm to give yourself a second score so when somebody goes to to criticize you you say all right look. They've already given me the D. minus catching. I can't suddenly convinced them that I deserved in a minus right all I can do. I can say I'm going to try to get an a plus for how well I took the D. minus right and I'm actually evaluated in my performance reviews on whether I can take critical feedback have an incentive to say. Hey whatever whatever problems you have with me bring it on and I know that my success here whether I get promoted whether I get paid it depends on showing that I can take that that learned for me to me. That's a dream employ amazing. Oh I mean what. What more could you want in an employed and someone that's like open to change and you're not GonNa shut down so in that spirit? I have a rule that whenever I whether I'm GonNa Stage or whether I'm working with someone new I I always ask what's the one thing I can do better and so you can either tell me now or when you do your fact check later you can do it and I'll listen to find. Find out what you said. I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. I literally can't Iraq lame to. You're not helping me so you're definitely not to give her. Ah something we'll all have. I think rob can probably come up with something I'll help it. They'll wear the big tee. The scarlet T- taker in all seriousness. I think this is such an important practice because here I am interacting with two people. You've spent thousands of hours now right listening to lots of different people talk. You have a ton of wisdom about what it takes to be interesting and insightful. And if I don't learn something from you dude then I have failed in part of my job as somebody who learns for a living as you're GONNA you're GonNa have to decompress because currently I'm just like this was a great fucking Inter Y.. Yeah I know when we have a great lead true and there are always areas of it. Maybe Jordan's cheesy easy. We have virtually the exact same style complains. You're biceps are fucking gorgeous. I see some vascular hitting the weight room. Everything's he's looking good We'll add them. We're so glad to have gotten to finally talk to you because we've talked about you so often we will continue to do so. That's a treat to be here after listening and enjoying so many episodes. Oh good until please check out. He and his wife's Children's book which is called the gift inside the box. The gift inside the box and then listen to work life podcast which is exciting and then also get yourself into the wharton business school so you can take a class with them. I hope you you are in teacher. Heaven over there and I hope everything's going exactly how you would hope because I'm so excited by your work and it's really fun to have you vacate l'ennemi hair so I feel pretty lucky. Okay great please come back and talk to us again when you write another article and I'll try to poke holes in it and he'll tell me to make you regret that okay and now my favorite part of the show. The fact check with my soul mate. Monica Batman Oh l. come onto the armature experts. It really bothers you. Let's get real. It actually bothered you know no no no it. Doesn't it doesn't blanket Louis. Okay but sometimes I feel like when you start on these things. There's just no end in sight. Well it feels very inward like. I'm not here when you're doing that. You're gauging with me. You're on your own ride side of doing you know I'm actively trying to make you laugh. I'm trying to think of words that you would laugh at. I said Yeah I said like GITA play it makes sense. 'cause nobody struck Atelli on a play and called a strategy Attila. So all of it is to make you laugh. No no but it's it doesn't feel like there's join in. I guess. Serve any accents of mine that you know I like it. I like it on being serious. I know I am too. There are accents. You lie like it when you do an eye makes it does make me laugh but then I feel like it goes on and on in awe ooh on its volume quantity over quality quality quality issue at all quantity little that just a little bit because I do. I can neto the neat though it do. Okay Hey Great Chow Bella and put that on the shelf now. Okay okay. Great Adam Grant. I'm in love. I'm in love me to join the ranks. Eric Topol. Yes yes. He's already emailed him as many times. I've emailed Eric told you kind of stuff. Are you sending well. He's connecting us with so. How many other experts and I just WANNA tease one of them for real dream Gala? We've been vocally wanting for two years. Had Him on he he was fantastic. Yeah No. He knows everybody in the intellectual sphere in the world of academia in the he knows everyone. He's very connected yet very humble. Oh my God you're not gonNa find a level of humility with his with his the credentials. Exactly what a humble guy and he seems very normal when he comes in he doesn't have an heir to him at all even though he's from West Bloomfield or the rich people are from right right. Yeah he didn't trigger any my rich people stuff. He emailed me ice cream. He mailed you ice cream stretchy tele scheduling. How as a thank God we? That's crazy because we were begging begging to have him on but he wanted to be onto. Here's my thing I think. Think of considering things I don't have time to execute them. Yeah I mean I think there's different mindsets it's I think it's more switching of a mindset like it's not even an option for him not to do it he's not thinking like do I have time is just like this is what I do. I wondering does even assist in. He said Send Ma ice cream to rob ordered online to online. Now it's getting more reasonable. I rice and bought a cooler. Fuck and we had someone way at the Goddamn post office. I don't think he did I do Ooh. That most people can't do that. I don't think he did that but if he was doing that. He has some other time management strategy that I could really benefit from. I know but listen I first of all. I don't the as an assistant because he responds all my emails immediately. And so humble. He's a humble and he is cute as hell to so cute but it's still like he had the thought to do something nicer than he executed thaw immediately. He didn't put it on a To-do list. There's something to be learned here from him and I don't know what it is back on just to ask them how to be considerate thoughtful. Ever as everyone knows by now yes yes he is he. He asked to give him criticism and we didn't we so we will give it to him on the fact check requiring. It's we have to do it but isn't it possible that I'm I don't have a criticism of somebody. Yeah but he said that's bullshit and not fair to him and he and I love that attitude. I do too but like you. You can watch. I watch beyond facing one plus one on American idol. I don't have any criticism for that. I mean flawless. Things happen right. They do they do they do but he he wants it so that he can grow. I don't think that's good and I'm GonNa give him one okay. Great yes so mine is that I think because we've been in touch through email and he always responds very quickly and very thoughtfully. This feels was like such a good courtesy. I just hope I hope. He's not sacrificing his own life in his own time and his own needs for other people's needs site although he says he says he enjoys it so I I don't know I mean I believe believe him but I get nervous when someone is so giving. They're sacrificing their own stuff and that's just my fear. snarly snarly a furnace. Well then yeah mine would just be a suggestion of like Make sure your question whether you're narrative is taken over like like I said this about Jay Leno I get the fact that he's a guy who's never swimming pool and doesn't take vacation but that becomes something you say to people and then the result is you don't ever go on vacation Asian or swimming pool which I don't think is advisable but understand how so so Adams premises givers succeed. So he's got to walk the walk. Yeah but I would just ask them to the challenge his own narrative occasionally. That's our criticize. It can be dangerous when you identify yourself with a concept because it doesn't leave a lot of room for just change right like he's declared at a young age I don't know what ag was when he wrote that book but let's he's thirty six and he declares this is the way to live. Yeah and then what then. There's no changer right of evolution. That maybe maybe figured it out at thirty six kind of sounds like he did so you might have in presentation and the way communicates and his ideas. I don't have any criticism for that. Yeah and then he again. He walks the walkie connected us with all these people that we love and we've had some successful books and children's book is truly phenomenal saucers favorite book. We voted the kids and I would have to know more about his personal life. Well no I don't think he's asking for criticism on that. Well all one thing I think in some way it's all one thing we know that's true in a way I'm sorry rem. I I liked everything so I'm GonNa stick to what we just said he's too he needs to make sure he's meeting his own needs before before meeting others by putting his life mask on i. I don't know if he's doing that right. Because it would appear that it'd be very easy to get codependent with that in order which is like I need people to think. I`Ma give her a need. I want people to. I don't know but again I don't. I don't know that he's paying any price. It's probably just great. Holly is but that's our criticism. Email fat too fast and we appreciate it. We were super grateful and we loved. You WanNa talk to you like every. Yeah I wish to me that would be the criticism like Oh yeah. I'd be cool. If he came came back in a year. Now I'd be cool. Became next week tells me tells me I have no criticism. It would be a delight to have him back every right to have him as a member of the podcast. So maybe the criticism is. He's too likable. He's not a member of our podcast. Oh yeah that's so. My criticism is. He's not here enough yeah. Did you think his publisher flew out. Here I don't know the question because could be a criticism like maybe he should've asked to pay for his trip or something. I would want to reimburse him if he flew out here to talk to us and he and we own the money for the ice cream and the books him for money so much money. That's her criticism. Adam give us a bill. Yeah we we haven't got your bill yet. Your lay on. Yeah Oh he needs to definitely use square could really help voice. Yeah Join Square atom. That's what I'm mad about okay. So some facts poops poop poop sees a drop Djirak than the toilet now. We've united had a little evolution in our friendship in that farting around you more. Yeah and are you you sorta let me smell them. That's right. I'm not there yet. Definitely not there yet. How do I feel about that? I feel two things I feel happy. Okay great first and then I feel excluded. No no smell. Well Yeah I feel for actually I it from the smell then I feel feel happy then I feel like oh I guess he just doesn't really care anymore about. I know you wanna both ways one was like. I don't trust the enough too far around you and then soon as I did is that I don't care about what you think about. Yeah that's right formation is now. It's it's because you don't let me smell it that I know it's not that you're so comfortable. Well now what I won't even do. I wouldn't do this in front of my family. I would only do it in front of air. Weekly he is. I have a very specific vic reaction when I eat a lot of onion rings which was discovered in seventh grade on the bus ride to Mir junior high and Aaron and I were in the back of the bus fucked up the whole? Oh my God. It was definitely if I'm like career Bart's it was terrible. It was it was. I remember it still. It was an act of terrorism. Oh and I I was embarrassed by an even was like that's too much for kind of a situation Jewish accident or on purpose. I didn't know it was going to be stink yen way. It's very specific and so I will pretty much. I would only do that in front inherent K.. Because he's a disgusting man just like me. I mean he is so disgusting in the way I'm discussing so it's Kinda like more now now both gross. That one was My mother which you know we didn't have junk food. We just within the budget but on this rare occasion occasion she brought home one of those big bags of frozen onion rings and I just put them all on a baking sheet and cook them all and I ate a couple pounds. I loved it. I couldn't stop myself. Wow and I just didn't know that was going to be the outcome now. I've right so I've never eaten him in that quantity. I don't think Sam Okay if you notice now when we go somewhere that has onion rings up in four or five of them. I won't get my order of fearful. You were burned. I was Burma onion rings. Wow Okay so he said that he was barely good enough to get on harvards diving team but then we had another guest on knows Adam who said that. He's a phenomenal diver Huey. Currently he's still an exceptional diet. He dove recently and it was very impressive. Also you know what I would like to talk to him about about but I don't WanNa make him uncomfortable. Is You know. I'm a student of the Olympics. And what I'm specifically student of is like what activity gives you the most rock and bod and is you know for me for my money that sprinters. Yep that's the sand volleyball players. It's the GODDAMN divers. The male divers have crazy goodbye. I mean leeward. Subjective but muscular annely. Yes it's nice almost gymnast's Miss Bodies. which kind of makes sense I guess yeah? The rotating in the air that requires so much abdominal is all in the APPs year but they also have really nice but cheeks six. The Olympics are coming up so excited Tokyo. Twenty twenty. Doubt you'll even have let me snowsuit so My friend Rutledge Rutledge. Who you met the other night? Yeah will use in town covering some Olympic style. Oh yeah you know. They do those stories before they get taste. Yeah so I guess he was in town filming one of those ally and he said. Do you want to go to Tokyo Olympics Mike it should we go to the Tokyo Olympics. Maybe oh I would love to okay. Maybe we should go. Although I kind of like watching it we we could watch it in our hotel room. We go there and then we stand that we had a couple of events that we were gonNA spectate okay but then the ones we thought would play you better on TV. We'll watch those. I like this idea to stay at the park. Hyatt scene of the lost in translation. What does this sound time? The time to be allies. Unlike a time okay. So he's a super taster And it's super taster. which we didn't really get into is if you have more than thirty taste buds in a space the size of a Hole Punch on your tongue Then you're super taster. So you can test it by cutting out a piece in counting the buds you cut out a hole punch circle okay and then you put on your tongue and then you count you. Count the piece of paper on your the account. The tea buds. You won't be able to see them under the Patriots to the other deals. You outline out there you go either the outline or put the piece of paper on your tongue and then outline it with a felt pen. No don't do that for sharpies for breakfast. There are super tasters. Average tasers non tasters. Oh I see what you're supposed to punch a standard notebook whole into a clean piece of plastic or wax the paper and put it on the front tongue that way you can see through it. The whole the dots. It's okay but it didn't sound like it was a pleasurable thing you you'd think being able to taste things better would be would be nice but it sounds like a detriment to his life. He doesn't like chocolate. There's my critique get some taste buds removed. Yeah so you can enjoy chocolate and coffee chocolate. I've been wanting a chocolate donut for days too long. Yes Ray KROC was fifty two too good right about that. Left handed people make up ten percent of the population. As you said we were talking about left-handed people on on our own couple of months ago. And what we realized what we saw was left handed people. The percentage of them is varies aries drastically amongst different countries that was fastened which I thought was fascinating and I think what they were saying was in some countries. It's considered bad. Had left handed so they kind of force these kids at a young age to deal with the program to start writing with the right hand. Even if that's not what there's you know naturally good at or my favorite teachers in college was a German professor who taught geography couple. Different Cool classes with with him and He's he'd say the weirdest stuff to me. He liked me in some weird way like we had some weird connection stench. Well one was. I was allowed to use a word processor. Asserted take written tests so that I could spell check because I was labeled dyslexic in so I said I need extra time so I get the spelling right and he goes. Oh I I sink doc. The opposite is true which is his way of saying he throws smart eight extra time which I liked but one time he just walked by me knows I was writing and he goes when I was a child. They would hit your hand with a ruler. Very hard you would not right like this and I was like. Oh Oh he was not permitted to right left and so in nineteen fifties Germany in Germany. The rate of left handedness. This is nine point. Eight three percent The whole thing is do you feel like one in ten people that you meet are left handed. I don't groups of friends and we talk about it. I guess. Charlie's left handed. I mean people. Are you sound like you're the first person I've been the worst. I hate it. I wanted to be one percent trees a toll I wish it was like point zero one percent. I know you gathered around to watch me write a letter. So my family's lefty. They are all the my two sisters and my mom are lefty. Oh I should be hanging out with them but mostly the your sisters sisters in your mom and I should put on public shows where we right with our left hand people stand here. Love take suggestions like eight. And then we make an a Oh my God. Wow people applauding cheer. Oh Boy Okay Ted Olson I. I don't think he's the most successful at trying cases in the Supreme Court I found a bunch of other people's and then there were some less but he wasn't on any of the it wasn't isn't historical figures in the modern era modern era. But it doesn't mean it's not as incredibly successful where he eh and he you know he worked for George Bush. I would love to interview him we should he. He is illustrated points. That I just would not have thought of. I don't think the way he does. Yeah it's a very convincing person. Adam just reminder. He's the one that taught us about Equa. Finality Akwa finality our new favorite word. We're we'RE GONNA use it Excessively in twenty twenty we used it a lot one day and then we forgot to use it ever again. But we'll try to bring it back your yeah will end up there Equa. Finality see what you did. We will end up there. So that's a one of our resolutions. I guess in Twenty Twenty Issues Equa finality everyday. Yes with reckless abandon. Yeah all right well Adam Grant. Oh We'd love cure their criticism. We love you too much. Aw Yeah hurts our soul. We don't have enough free utilize to love you in the way we want to

Michigan Dr Monica professor Detroit West Bloomfield Bob Sheldon America Harvard West Bloomfield high school Adam Wharton School of business Milford partner TA Dax Shepard US Hungary Orchard Lake
Adam Grant

Experts on Expert with Dax Shepard

2:17:25 hr | 1 year ago

Adam Grant

"Whale Kolmogorov armchair expert experts on expert. I'm your resident expert. Monica Pad Man. I'm your non resident expert spirt Dax Shepard. Today we have somebody that we've talked about so much on the show and we had the deep deep pleasure to sit down and meet him Adam Grant. You've heard US talk about animal. Bunch of times on Harry's in American psychologist and an author who is currently a professor at the Wharton School of business of the University of Pennsylvania specializing in organizational psychology. He's so fascinating is such an interesting way that he looks at the world in. He's written a couple of books. Originals how nonconformist move the world and give and take while helping others drives our success now. That's the thing that we really got infected with lots of things but yeah we talk about that. A good bit your taker. Yes no always give her. Even though you're trying to prove why don't WanNa ruin it. That's not right. Yeah our shadows. Let's just say that. He evaluates are giving and taking status truly beautiful guy. I so excited that we met him and he's opened the door to all these other interesting people that we love. He's been so great he truly is a giver. The giver ever there is also. He's got a new children's book that I've read it multiple times in my kids. It's out legitimately an awesome children's book called the gift inside the box so please enjoy Adam grant rant. We are supported by Bob's red mill. My favorite source of gluten free oatmeal. Every morning I just add that water. Stir stir stir. I eat in the car along Dr Monica and ate it all the time. And it's so tasty feel like a million bucks. After I I have no residual issues. I just feel very fueled for the day. Here's the best thing about. Oh Bob's red mill. They are teaming up with no kid hungry now no kid hungry is something personae have been involved with for years now and it's an organization that helps address address kids that show school hungry. Basically any all of everything you could measure about a kid goes down if they start the day hungry in America Today Day one in seven children lives with hunger. No Kid hungry is a national campaign dedicated ending childhood hunger in America through effective programs that provide kids with food. They need such. It's such a school breakfast summer meals and after school meals now as a dad. It's just completely unacceptable to me that kids live with hunger. That's why I support no kid Hungary's work to ensure all. Oh kids have access to three meals a day and I just WanNa think Bob's red mill forgetting involve our good friends. At Bob's red mill are proud to partner with no kid hungry to raise awareness funds in support for this important. 'cause learn more and get involved at Bob's red mill dot com slash. No Kid hungry. Uh Adam grant welcome to armchair expert. Thank you excited to be here. First and foremost let's Geek out for one second that we're both from Michigan in not far apart either either. Where did you grow up? I was brought home from the hospital to Highland Michigan then. I moved to Milford then. We moved back to that. We move back to Milford. Then I moved to walled lake then Southfield Southfield then downtown Detroit. Wow so elementary. And junior high in high Linden Milford and then high school in Wall bike in your West Bloomfield. Yeah all the way three okay. What Part Hardaway Bluefield Fifteen in Orchard Lake. If that helps you. Oh absolutely fifteen how my God yes. Let's see so you went to West Bloomfield high school guilty so so you were born in eighty one. Does that mean you graduated in like ninety nine ninety nine do you love Olga's Oh of course job read. Oh I wanna go to Michigan again just for that. Soon as I land in Michigan either drive straight to Lafayette Coney Island or straight to toss up. Pick your poison orange cream cooler also. Oh sure Monica. Didn't I make you eat some snacker. They were really good. Just saying that because you know it's important to him. Well that is a good thing to be suspicious. They were good. I like. I'm from Georgia. So I get edit. Monica is from Georgia. Were Crystal is king. You know the little tiny white castle burgers. But it's called Chris. I've never had never even I heard of it. We'll just for the record Christie the logos collar astrology. We'll do you tiny hamburgers unique. Michigander thing that we -plore allies. Everything I actually had. There was a linguistics professor in college. Who would ask you for or five questions and then could figure out what state you're Oh Michigan? He only needed one or two questions whole really. It was always the. What do you call this? Can of coke okay POB there cofre there and then. Which direction do you drive to get to? Canada was the O.. which is east right? Is it east. I always thought it was. Didn't we go south to Canada to get to the Windsor Tunnel. I don't know maybe south I think if you're looking at it. Oh Yeah it's either south or east now Michigan in general. How how long has it been since you live there? I left in ninety nine and then went back to Michigan for Grad School from. Oh three zero seven so I guess it's been twelve years twelve years. I wonder do. Have you read by chance. The Malcolm glad well books of course the aren't they great. They seem very up. Your Alley is a regular sparring partner. Okay Okay Great. So one thing that again I grew up more in the hillbilly area. More than you did Milford. You said it not me on saying that when you get to that chapter on the culture of pride I was like Oh Bingo all the way Bingo from where I grew up just like you can't look at a dude in a restaurant without having walk outside. I'm fine or if you lock in and you commit to. It could escalate to walking outside. Once I moved to California I found that was unique. Yeah that I didn't even Ah. I didn't get that right. Oh okay our suburbs. There was no culture of honor. I think there's a lot of status competition. Oh my God yeah have you have you read. Mitch Princeton's work popular. No so Mitch. Studies popularity about middle psychologists and finds that there are two paths to being popular one is status which is is being cooler than everyone else and the other is being likeable. I think that West Bloomfield was very much about status. Not about likability right. Now Your Dad was a lawyer ear and mom was a teacher. You've done your homework. Wash his jobs. At least twenty people are going to listen to the obligation and I have a real quick question. Did he say Y. Some are status driven and summer like ability driven was their reasoning behind it. I don't think we know I think that in most for most schools and for most kids both paths are their options man. I think that for whatever reason I don't know of status was just more visible and we grew up in an area where there are all these symbols I russell was a lot of. SUV's yeah car. While I'm six years older than you and it was like yeah who had a Mustang Mustang. You're pretty much gonNA take the fast pass up to some level of popularity. I guess that's a Detroit thing I think so really thought about it before. We'll even when I was reading. I think he referenced that in your Article That's currently in the Atlantic panic. That is definitely true. That's true right and I went to you and I I like of course Amigo centric and I thought about you and I and I thought you know your popularity clarity's stem from likability. Yeah right yes I mind. Didn't that's really funny though. Because somebody says where you popular alert I always say no I was well liked but I'm popular sitter it to be the same as a popular was status with someone with a lot of cachet and status Atas. I didn't think I had that I didn't have that but I think we would use the definition of like how many Pe- if you asked all thousand kids in the school who knows. Monica Patterson that you know if twenty percents that I know who she was and then Gil Turner they said one percent. You're you know you're more popular. And then the question is will. What's why are you more popular? That's true okay so now back to your if you're a lawyer and he didn't do. Exclusively pro bono. Work probably could about Jordan's so we there is an ethos in the house or some kind of thought that was frivolous or silly. Why don't you have the good ship? Oh my parents were definitely anti materialistic. Think the Norman. Our House was You know where the old marathon t-shirts everywhere. Ha Ha or triathlon t-shirts then almost begs the question. Why were they even West Bloomfield? I don't know actually because that's where if you're in Michigan you're climbing. The ladder was bloomfield's the last out before Bloomfield hills or Birmingham. And that's it you're at the top right. Yeah that's right. I'm I'm not sure I mean I have no idea I know both grew up in Detroit. I don't know how they ended up there. I asked them. What part did they grow up in Michigan? They were both in Detroit proper. Oh they were okay okay so he goes just move out to the suburbs. We found a house right. It was in the same proximity to work for dad or anything. or where did mom teach semi mom taught in the North Farmington schools. So she did okay. Another lovely area. That's somewhere westbound right around the corner. So you buckle the fuck a cup Monica because we're UNIFIL WE. Neither of US went to an Ivy League school. Were kind of obsessed with the status of it. You went to Harvard out of West Bloomfield high school which which makes me think you must have had like a four point three or some shit and a bunch of extra I think about a fifth of our class did right here. It's funny I assumed and I was GonNa go to Michigan or Michigan state like everyone did. Yeah and I had a dream in September of my senior year of high school that I went to Harvard. I never thought about it and I said you know what I'm going to apply so I started filling out an application. Didn't really tell anybody in the divor right. You're all American diver. I was Barely good enough that the coach said yes. This guy is not terrible and we welcome him onto the team and so I guess that got stamped as having achieved something were you not labeled all American or maybe. I don't know what that means. Nine hundred ninety nine. Were you not josh. Inside of you. it feels like it no Yeah I made some list of top diverse but I filled out the application and you sort of had to validate like if you were Somebody would have to prove that you are good at music and they had the diving coach. Look at my video and and he said yes you go visit and then a couple of months later I got in and and was shocked. Yeah actually the the thing I remember most clearly was getting in wanting to go but then thinking I'm not GonNa have any friends there as opposed to when you go to the same college as all your friends. Yeah and so. I started running searches on America Online to find people who are going because you want to hang out with the people who put that in there profiled. While they're going to Harvard researcher I found a few and we started a little email list and by the time the sort of this spring pre freshman visit rolled around on we connected about an eighth of the entering class online and so we had an early online social network and then we got to campus. We're rolling Cambridge. Now we know each other. We don't need the online social network and we shut it down years before March starts facebook us. We didn't have a vision anywhere near obviously what that became but it is amazing to look back at what was created and what it could have been. I feel like no tells me so much about you. I would have had a hard time making myself vulnerable enough to who openly be in search of friends I would have felt like that would have made me a Louisville or look desperate. I'm not buying this. You're the King of vulnerability now. After after a life and death illness that required me to get sober and then learn these tools but no I I would have had a very hard time with that and in fact like what strata. Were you in in high school because we have the same paradigm I would imagine. I guess because you're an athlete. You van gasoline though right Hawkeye diverts to for basketball to week for football all too slow for tracks we were we were. It was kind of the swim team in the band. Were in the same level of coolness. Okay tells me if you went out of your way to to land at Harvard with a Social Group that tells me that you were you were actively engaged in trying to. Maybe we'll show. I think I did it though in part because I'm an introvert spelt lake. It was easier to reach out to people and send them emails than it was too. I was really shy so the thought of approaching a stranger was kind of frightening frightening face to face I can write these notes. I like to write and then maybe I'll connect with some people you land in Harvard and you have some friends. And what did you get your undergraduate Joe Degree and so I said he's technology you did. Why do you think you were interested in psychology? I think it happened for a few reasons. One had taken an interest class in high school and thought it was just incredibly really interesting to get inside the mind and figure out what makes us tick. Yeah I don't remember thinking about it that systematically but looking back I had a lot of questions about why people do the things they do. Yeah and I felt like we scratched the surface of that in this class. I wanted to learn more about it also discovered once I told my parents. I was thinking about majoring in psychology. That my dad had been a psych major the lady. I'm a dentist psych minor in either ever told me really but it was sort of in the water so I you know I grew up as a kid thinking that normal families said things like self fulfilling prophecy. Prophesy I just thought that was part of the you know kind of the everyday lingo. Yeah so I think it was in the water quite a bit right in. Were you drawn because I I took one. As well. In High School I was drawn specifically to like the path holidays. Like I wanted to know about schizophrenia. I wanted to know about split personality. I wanted to know about so paths. I wanted you know I was kind of drawn to that. But that's not what you were drawn to not as much. I thought it was interesting. What really hooked? Psychology was the idea that learning things that could improve my life and other people's lives and so I wanted to say if we all understood our own minds better than we could probably live more productive more meaningful lives. And let's figure out how to to do that. Yeah right because you took tall bench. Shahar's class did. We had him on the show. I heard that remember. He said that Adam was one of his best student student that he did say that in. Yeah four of us. Twenty five percent shot okay. So having him as instructor was that life changing were you on that path already dirt. He opened your mind to something. No Tallahassee big impact on me so the first thing he did was he convinced me to join a research slab and say look. You don't just have to be a consumer of this knowledge you can actually produce it I thought that was really exciting. I actually didn't know what professors did when I got got to college. I just thought they were teachers. Yeah and I think a lot of people think that probably the discovery that there was this whole life of creating social science. I felt like okay. This is something I want GonNa be involved in and then the other thing that happened was tol. was you know from meeting him. He's extremely introverted. And it was pretty empowering to see that somebody who is that withdrawn and not traditionally a charismatic person outgoing. Yeah could give such captivating lectures. Yeah and so I think it was an early role model to say. You know what I can probably expand my comfort zone in now. was that a discovery so you meet him under the guise of. He's the teacher and he's already in the throes of a lecture and he's probably probably very charismatic. And all these things did you go visit him in office hours and go. Oh wait this guys like me. Yeah I actually did it before. I even took his class to the first class. I had with him. He was the ahead. Ta and then there were a few other Ta's and I was assigned to somebody else's section but it was written up in the student. Course Evaluation Guy. That tall was the the best of the TA's and so. I actually manufactured a conflict. I didn't have one created one of my schedule so I couldn't go to the other section and then I was forced to go to Paul's even though it was already full. Ah I remember waiting afterward. talked to him and just feeling like wow this is this guy is not. He's not a big performer. He's not showman. He seems really cerebral role in introspective. And I think maybe I could be someone like that one. Yeah I think a lot of people would be shocked to know that actors can often to fall into a similar Yeah like you'll often meet really charismatic actors in real life. They're quite shy or they're introverted. Or you know all those things into some soup. Well I think in the case of many of those actors they actually are playing a character and I suspect that so as tall when he is the teacher I think he probably clicks into alternative identity house. Yeah I think that's true and I've I've certainly felt that as well one of the things I do in class every year now Is when we do personality I have my students. Try to guess whether I'm an introvert extrovert or ambivert. Somewhere in the middle and the classes usually pretty split so you know a bunch of people who will vote ambivert because most people are in the middle. They're like well this. Is this statistically smartest guess EMC. I'm always excited when they do that but there are a lot of students students who think I'm an extrovert and it is a performance right. It's it's I'm not an actor but my version of act one is though right. Yeah okay I'm not as skilled or correct right right right. Let's be clear but there is an element of of saying look. I didn't choose my personality so whether it's the you know the dopamine response that I have in my neo cortex that makes me an introvert or some other constellation of factors. That wasn't up to me But I did choose my values and I feel like sometimes I have to be false to my personality in order to be true to my values. I love sharing knowledge. I'm really passionate about connecting with students and trying to help them in the ways that some teachers did me in so that just feels like it's sort of it's become second nature right you can reverse engineer it a little bit right. I assume your comfort level now as a professor is much different through just muscle memory but Yeah I mean I mean. It's way more comfortable now. I remember my first year teaching. I gave out feedback forums so I could find out what I can improve on and one of the most common comments. I was so nervous. You're causing us to physically shake in our seats. Their Mirror neurons remain antic but over time. That's changed quite a bit and spend enough time on big stages now that it started to feel a lot more comfortable but at first I would. I was pretty obsessive about studying all their backgrounds because it made them less intimidating. I felt like you instead of these super human achievement robots who are in my class. They're a bunch of people with interests that overlap with mine and I could start to figure out how would I wanted to teach would relate to them and that made it a lot more comfortable. Well you know he really emulated his hero because he was voted most lights teacher at Warton for six years in a row on the two. He doesn't eleven two thousand seventeen. I think so. That's exciting. So that's Kinda Kumar now. Is there any kind of data. I mean these conversations. I'm sure you get frustrated. Traded with them as well as where things lie on the continuum between nature nurture is almost. The crux of so many debates yet ultimately may be unknowable. lable right to some precise degree but do we have a theory that everyone there is there any consensus on where that comes from. Introversion or extroversion. Yes so it seems like a Fifty percent of introversion extroversion is genetic. Okay plus or minus ten percent roughly and that's true for most of the major personality traits and the best way that we know this is as you get these studies of mottos got twins so they share one hundred percent of their DNA but then they get separated at birth. Oh we pray for it in science bad ride right of over weight and so then you look at. When they're adults how similar their personalities and on average they overlap about fifty percent in traits? Like introversion extroversion. Okay Okay but then you run though you would think more writing to well. I think a lot of people are surprised in the opposite direction. They think that it's going to be all nurture and if you grow up in an introverted family you'll learn to be quiet quiet. Yeah as a parent. I think that because I want to believe I have some impact on my children but I feel like when I've heard about those twin studies it's more attention grabbing to go. Oh the both ladies married a time and they both were. Thanks a rubber band on their left. Ritz yeah that stuff is is very headlining. Yeah I in sensational and fun and tasty. And then I guess doesn't make headlines to say they're not all alike no but I think the more I in some ways the more interesting tests is the the reverse. which is you take? Two kids who are genetically unrelated adopt them into the same family and then the question is what happens to their personalities stories on average they are no more similar than if they'd been adopted into different families. There no more similar okay. So then that says the nature's got a lot going on they're alive interpret that correctly I would tend to look at it. I think you know they're they're pressures families that pushed personality traits together. Obviously sleep in terms of routines that you learn. Yeah but they're also pressures that push them apart right sue. You're familiar with the birth order research that says we like to do niche picking and you know if the firstborn borne is a high achiever than the second born will often rebel to try to stand out And so I think it's easy to see why even though you think you're growing up in the same family you're actually exposed. It's the different environments with different expectations. Oh absolutely and then now that I have kids I recognize traditionally you just think of the parents leading that charge right but in fact the conclusion I've come up with with my younger daughter. Is She could give a shit about consequences. She doesn't care about rules and when I realized was from the moment she was born and she's been being rejected by the person whose approval she wants the very most in the family which is earlier sister. So it's just happening literally upwards of three or four hundred times a day. She gets rejected by her sister. So she's she's got coping mechanisms. She can get over that. And so we reject her in some capacity or disapproving of something. She's like yeah. This is the four hundred and ninth time. I'm big deal. What do you think of that theory so I think it depends on each spacing a little bit? So they're only a couple of years apart right. Yep anyone months so my my read. The birth order research is almost the messy area. I've seen in social science period right there all these conflicting effects. Nobody agrees on anything but one thing that I think is pretty robust. is you see those kinds of reactions. If kids are within about five years of each other okay and then if they're further apart there's really no competition and so all the niches are open all over again they're almost all firstborn eventually war. The older sibling takes on more of a parental role. And then the you know. The younger sibling feels more supported. And so I I think the similarity clarity to age. Seems like a big factor there. Well I thought what was funny when learning about you as someone that is an organizational psychologist would have dared to have three kids because in my experience experienced to always ruins the third two of them always gang up and destroy the life of one of their one of the kids. I I just have a sister so I never knew what the third would be like. I think there's something to that. I also think we were warned a lot about zone defense problem and how much harder two to three is. Yeah I don't think that's the hardest problem. I think it's math because when you only have two kids there's only one fight that can be happening three kids you've got three different fights going simultaneously you have the power our cater avenue ones. Are they all the same gender girls and then the baby. Yes I feel like this is the most ideal. If you're going to go down this road yep I feel like that those two gals will nurture that boy definitely telling myself that. I Ah. I'm optimistic for you. Okay so you get out of Harvard and you have a degree in psychology and you got to Study with one of the great teachers that they've ever had which is a very fortunate Senate event for you and then you end up you Vam in Ann Arbor. Michigan might be the coolest sliver of Michigan and are. It's quite a neat little pocket. I think it's the best college rush hour on Earth did you go to Hash Bash. They're never never okay. Great this is where we started. You've never had coffee true. What the fuck? How could you like like you see the the whole world's drinking you don't think well they must be on to something? I need to try us. Caffeine is never had an effect on me that I can tell. Oh really at also a a super taster. I have all these extra taste buds on my tongue and even the smell of coffee is disgusting. Chocolate to chocolate spies it. Oh my unclean rather no choice between eating chocolate and a pile of dirt I would choose the dirt. Oh aw that's how bad chocolate is. I wonder what he's smelling now. Fearful he's smelling us. I mean I worked. Oh where how'd you find out. You were a super taster. What do you do out? Is Our test their couple tests actually so the survey is you. Compare the worst taste you've ever experienced to the loudest sound or the brightest light often more bothered by the worst taste. But then there's a there's a chemical called pro P- I think it's there's a piece of paper treated aided with it that you can lick and most people can't taste anything but to super tasters. It's foul happen to. I happen to be at a psychology conference where a researcher gave these out. Five hundred the people in the auditorium. Everyone the paper. Nobody reacts my mouth is on fire only had to run out of the room. It was so I'm so I'm so jolly liaising me. Too Unique. I was just really disheartening. Not that no no it's spectacular. I was really disheartened to find out that left handed people make up like ten percent of population. I thought it was so special and I'm not. That's not very big. You know big deal. No no but that's a good thing. Tout Dax feels more stay tuned for more armchair if you dare. We are supported. Supported by tonal Monica. How does my chassis look right now? Folded up wrinkled. Now Looks Nice. Does it look taught. Does it looks felt it does. Do I look strong. Yes genesis tricking in the car will. I'm using tonal. This is the coolest coolest thing ever. It's a it's a smart at home Jim. In a replaces every machine in the weight room and it comes with personal training programs. Built in first of all the thing is sleek is hell. It looks Nice. I feel like I'm in the jetsons when I work out. Step up to this beautiful monitor in. It's so compact and then the arms I fold out and then it just tells me what to do. 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I've had no training burst. I have to sell ads then the next year I was running a team. I had managed budget and motivate a staff and hire. Hire people idea what I was doing so I went back to the principles. I was learning in my psychology classes and started applying them and they worked. I got better at my job. I it went from being a horrible salesperson to doing reasonably well at that job. I ended up doing a good enough job as a manager that I won an award for management skills. Oh aw I didn't know what I was doing. I was literally just going through my all. The psychology studies. I'd read and trying to apply the best insights and so I thought okay if I can learn to do this anyone can uh-huh and then I had a really for the actual sales ability improve or just your your management of sales team and Bo Bo. Yeah so the. The first cheer went by First Week of trying to do ad sales and we had a ninety five percent renewal rate in the. Let's go travel books. Okay and I had zero contracts. So maybe even lost some of their customers at three clients to manning refunds from the previous year granted which was not allowed to my country. All and then I completely completely turn this around and ended up. Selling hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of advertising and a lot of it was just learning to build rapport. Ask People Questions Try to connect with them amount of personal level not just in in terms of trying to complete some kind of transaction right. I was surprised by how useful it was. Did you employ that trick without. I've heard of where where you you basically basically get people to in a pattern of saying yes. Have you heard this thing. Yeah Regal like Bob Sheldon either four walls those technic- oh okay so you know the actual name so you tell Monica about it. 'cause they'll probably watch but I love this. I think people tried to employ it on dates as well tell me. It's it's creepy. The general concept is that if you WANNA be persuasive you want to get people to commit to something and then be consistent around it and so so I might start by let. Well what's something that either of you struggled to persuade someone to do. Okay Okay Mo- mm Oh fuck I have children so I mean virtually anything. Brush their teeth and we use that. Yeah Okay so can you play one of your kids. Oh of course yeah I'll be Delta Okay all right can I call you delta. No I'm going to do it anyway. Say very good start. We're going sure. Okay Oh okay right right. Yeah yes okay great so delta. Tell me what is your favorite food. Macaroni and and cheese. What do you like about? Macaroni and cheese tastes good. It tastes good What does it tastes like cheese awesome? Okay what do you like about eating eating macaroni. It makes me feel okay. Do you like that feeling. Yeah why because I'm still GONNA get back in and out compression. What does it feel like when you're not full? I'm angry okay. And you don't like being angry. No okay you like being happy yeah. Macaroni makes a happy. Yes okay what do you need to eat. Macaroni of fork. Okay and what about in your mouth. My teeth okay. Do you know what you have to do to your teeth. So that they keep working brush them up so you back them into you've you've attached something. They loved something they. Hey let's say it again. What was called the four walls technique the four walls technique? Okay so interrupted you because I was curious if that was one of the techniques. So was that one of the techniques employed during this ad sales. I don't think so so you you were just building rapport. Which is owning a lot of poor? I would start by sharing something about you. Know about my background that was relevant to the clients but then a big factor was Was Social Life. You've so the idea that under uncertainty people follow the lead of similar others. So if you're not sure okay. In this case should I buy it or not. I'm going to look at what other advertisers are doing doing. And it never dawned on me to say okay. Here's our list of clients who are renewing. Oh sure they've all decided to go for it. Is that something that you might be interested in two. Oh that's this genius. These people that are these companies that I respect are all advertising. I probably should too right. I trust them. They have their profitable. We'd like to be like them. But I do you right when you walked sandwiches. I said. Hey We're both from Michigan. I wanted you to know like hate work. You know. Look cotton from the same civil aries. Yeah it's weird though that I came in and you wanted to bond with me. Oh why is that well. I don't know I I would think is the guest. I'm the one who wants to bond with host now. That's and you're the famous one. Don't you think this is backward. Yeah I actually. Don't I think it's his job to make you feel comfortable. Maybe right that is very mid western of you. Though when I always say I envy about Howard. Stern is that everyone is trying to get his approval. I don't care who you are. He is the King of all media. He's number one so even if Brad Pitt does his show he wants Howard Alaikum I have mortgage could give a shit if I like them so the little bit of a tactical disadvantage. That's so interesting. I don't know if it's an advantage to have people need to like you. I don't know if that is. I agree with you if the goal is to get them to try to impress you end up telling a lot about themselves that may be otherwise one hour mellish or a practiced. I like none of. That's organic or good right. Yeah we'd have to identify in our study what we're would we go. What's the goal? And there's a name for what we're doing right now to it's called the breaking the fourth wall technique who tell me I just made that up. Having a conversation goes on Lynn. podcasting is that what you on fire for like. Oh there's there's something to organizational psychology in the workplace. Yeah that was a huge factor factor. And while I was doing my manager job I took my first organizational psych class and the professor Richard Hackman had this really interesting career where he decided going to become the world's leading expert on teams because he hated working with other people. This is true for a lot of psychologists right. We stand are blind spots. What's the one thing I'm worst at Jago? Go and study that right. And so Richard wanted understand. How could anyone ever work with another human being? And the way that he did it was he took all the careers that he was interested in. And said I'm going to live vicariously by studying them and so he'd wanted to be a an orchestra conductor. He studied symphony orchestras. And how to help them enjoy their jobs and also played. Hey better music January So yeah I mean. He studied intelligence agents basketball teams and airline cockpit crews and I looked at that and said wait a minute. I have never known what I WANNA do with my career. But as an organization psychologists my job would be to study other people's jobs that sounds fascinating. Oh that's so interesting. Yeah like in lieu of your own like norstar our passion. You could go study other people's barrier I like that. Can you remember what it was about studying organizations like. Oh Wow we could know that out there were so many one of the ones that jumped out at me. I was trying to think about the idea of personality at work. You're working with someone who is sometimes really dominant and authoritarian. And other times. You know kind of submissive and deferring to other people. How in the world could that? What happened and what I thought from setting social psychology was? Oh well the situation is very powerful and so you end up in a situation where someone has more status. Addison you and you defer you end up in a situation where you know you're the powerful person and you kinda stand up. Yeah like code switching or something exactly and and there's some of that but what we learn about was research on the personality trait of authoritarianism which is actually your consistent in your inconsistencies. So that authoritarian are always. They're always dominant when they're dealing with people below them and they're always submissive when dealing with people about them and that's a personality trait to say you you know. I believe that hierarchy is really important and I believe when I'm in charge I should have total control And I thought that was so interesting to say. Actually you bring in this personality trait to an organization and it changes the way that you interact with all of your colleagues depending on who you think has more power less power than you. Okay while we're on this topic because Monica I I just I went through and kind of remembered all the things we were obsessed with in his interview Osama we loved and you were talking about that power conventionally is thought of as something that corrupts people it was it was even hung in a classroom of yours as a child. But that that's not the case in you gave great examples of two folks that perfectly offically exhibit that. Oh yes so it looked power can corrupt people but I think that some people are more corruptible by power than others And so I I love. The case of a lawyer is trying his first case and the judge writes that he doubts that the lawyer has the ethical qualifications to practice law and that lawyers Richard Nixon. uh-huh this happened in the nineteen thirties. If I remember correctly so we could foreshadow a lot of what was to come and so I think that Nixon actually corrupted power right. It wasn't necessarily Shirley power that corrupted him and then you contrast that with another lawyer who also ascended to the Oval Office coup when he was practicing law he was asked us to take a case to defend somebody who thought was guilty and he said I can't I think it's wrong. And he was so upstanding that he couldn't be paid to go against his values in his beliefs. And then when he made it to the Oval Office he held office hours four to four and a half hours a day to hear the concerns of regular citizens. You might have heard of him. His name is Abraham Lincoln. Yes and I think that you can see in that contrast with a lot of the research in psychology has shown which is that oftentimes power doesn't really corrupt it reveals and that when you gain a position of influence feel like what I am now free to show you my true colors. See What's interesting about. That is when I was hearing you talk about it. And this becomes a little bit of an Overarching issue I have in general with summing people up is that binary doesn't really cover it. A quadrant doesn't cover it. There's so many the colors so in my own life I went from. Powerless biometrics and then getting famous. And then definitely exploiting that. Misusing that abusing abusing that. I'd like to think I'm now at a place where I don't do that. But it was a learning curve for me so is it also possible that that thing is fluid. Yeah Yeah I think so. I'm much more comfortable. Predicting somebody's behavior over a long period of time so the shorter the window. The more likely it is that whatever situation you're in is going to have a big impact act on your behavior and also the peer group that you're around. You're probably doing a lot of those same things. Sure sure But I think that where we start to see your values play out is you chose to step up off that path right and say okay. That's not the person I want to be. Yeah I don't know how I feel afterwards. So you leave you them in you go to North Carolina and you work therefore minute and then you end up at the Wharton School of business at Pan which we're still latte and you wrote a book and I think your first job I probably i. I'd imagine some way leads to give and take. Is that accurate. Yeah very much. So so. In that first AD sales job I felt felt like what really motivated me was knowing we were a student run organization on a college campus and the more revenue I brought in the more jobs I could create for other students who are also trying to to pay for school in the same way I was and so without that knowledge I would have been a total pushover and said you know I. I don't really need to tell these clients that they should spend their money on our advertisements retirements. Yeah but knowing that I had such an important mission and that it might help other people it kicked me into a different gear and it made me much more likely than to say. Okay look I'm not Doing this for me. I'm doing this because I believe in this organization and the you know the the learning opportunities it creates for people in the way that it makes it possible for them to afford an education. You yeah and so seeing how motivated I was by believing that my work benefited other people. I got interested in studying that more systematically and I actually did my Undergrad thesis studying the teams that. Let's go and found that. The best predictor of the performance of the writers and editors who putting the books together was their belief that their books. We're going to have a positive impact on travelers flers. So you you start looking at givers and takers. And then there's also a mix of those two right and you found that in in workforce's in cultures pictures of companies that you have these different groups of people that you've labeled givers or takers and then there's a third one would natcher's the matches so tell us about givers and takers. Because I'm really curious as to explain it I gotta say I have no idea where I fall on. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah I okay so explain. What a giver? Than what takers okay. So first of all these are styles of interaction that we all mix and match throughout the course of our days in our lives But when I think about your style I think about what your default so when you're interacting with most of the people most of the time are you asking what can I do for you. uh-huh givers orientation. Are you trying to figure out what can you do for me. which is more of a taking mindset or are you saying well you know can we can we trade favors and I'll do something for you if you do something for me and that that would be being a matter and I found that yeah of course you know we all have moments of each but you? I think we all also know people who are pretty consistently trying to add value versus extract value from their relationships. Yeah and so. That's what I was trying to get up and you are also saying one is not better than the other like A. Obviously we all think being takers bad. I mean well he was at least you think well but you know I think more specifically you're approaching it from the angle that he was open to the notion that a taker might be better for a business that the outcome better study. Yeah obviously morally. I would prefer that there aren't any shakers in the world. You you set out on that hypothesis hoping that givers are ultimately beneficial to an organization. But you're open to the notion that the data might not support that big right now. Now here's where I think I might be able to bump up against you in. Are you a little bit as I am on some level in an rand I believe leaving selfishness. I believe there isn't anything that's not selfishly motivated so even if I hear someone is a giver or someone as a people pleaser I think well they're just selfish but for whatever weird reason their identity is such that that's where they get their self esteem but it's still we're all in pursuit of the same thing like being loved connection and then we've chosen a path and right or wrong. That's the pathway. But we're all trying to do the same thing and everyone's equally fucking selfish. What do you think about that? Are there levels of selfishness of of course sea levels people Geneva no. I think it's actually really interesting debate. And I don't think I'm GonNa land where you think I'm GonNa land but I was just going to say a what I'm seeing as people using really terrible strategies to get the thing they wanted love and connection but don't think that the person who's in the jacked up truck doc fucking blown diesel exhaust on a previous for a video in an affliction shirt and flip and someone off. I think weirdly that guy is just as desperate and wants just as much for everyone around him to like him look up to him. Whatever respect him he's just not super grade evaluating whether that techniques bearing fruit fruit? Or not maybe or maybe they're big individual differences in how much people care about being liked and accepted and loved to ease their or many people. You need to beloved by okay. But we have these categories in psychology agreeable or disagreeable these personality types in there seemed to be somewhat universal across the patent it. Okay so even even that I still think at the core of agreeable disagreeable is the same desire in the same selfish motivation just to drastically different approaches so when I think about the the continuum of greatness I think about agreeable people as warm friendly. They're polite Nice Canadian Yup Great We were and disagreeable people are much more. Critical and skeptical on New Yorkers. Yes and also the more likely than their peers to go to law school or become engineers which is interesting but I think that when you look at the experiences of agreeable and disagreeable people there is a great study that W Moskowitz and Stefan coattail dead in Toronto Val places where where they would page you or text you. This was in the pager days. They'd ask you what you're doing right now and then how much joy you feeling And agreeable people. Of course were happiest obvious when they were feeling loved and connected other people disagreeable people experience more joy in an argument than in a friendly conversation and they were. They were energized by that sense of conflict conflict intention but again. Don't you think the arguer is at that moment confirming their identity that what people like about me is that I am very savvy on my feet and I'm Nimble Nimble in an argument and improving the value adding to everyone which is I'm very clever and bright like don't you think maybe horror of it the think that's what's attractive about them. I I think for some but I think there's also a pretty big subset of disagreeable people who aren't thinking about the other person's reaction these are saying. Hey this is who I am and I need to tell this idiot that I'm right in this kind of psychologist so I would say Monica. Would you agree that taxes pretty agreeable as opposed to disagreeable no. I would think that when you were talking about. When you're talking about givers and takers? I don't know if I'm a giver taker but when I know agreeable disagree totally disagreeable I don't buy at all every time I've listened to your show. I hear off the charts agreeable. I ah well I agree that I do not think you're a taker at all okay. I'm not sure but no I don't think I I do not think you are but I do think your disagreement. I think I'm disagree. I do too. Yeah Yeah why well definitely what you say about getting energy out of the aid debate he has. We both do but wait a minute. That's that's something a little different so intellectual debate very different from actually Genuinely disliking someone. Okay yes I almost never dislike a presidium and if I don't agree with them and also seem to hate the idea of being disliked liked to of course yet what are the hallmarks. Have agreeable though although I've had to evolve because again I'm in a position where a lot of people would want my intention in at some some point I had to go on and have to live with people not liking me. I got exist in the world with you because I don't feel like he wants to be like so much that he changes his personality. Saudi to match or to acquiesce. You don't do that. You're still you always you just want them to like. I want that version. Yeah manipulating manipulating yourself. which to me would be more of an agreeable person maybe would be like okay? This person needs this for me so I'm going to be that Chameleon Amelean well that that also gets in. Have you talked about self monitoring. No another trait. I think there's a case to be made. We should pay more attention to it when we talk about the big five personality traits traits but hasn't made it there yet so self monitoring is about how much you adopt your behavior to fit the environment and so if you're a high self monitor you're constantly reading the norms and then saying okay. I've got to adjust and you're you're actually you're an actor in everyday life whereas low self monitor would say this. I am and I am going to be that way regardless of this. Is Steve Jobs. Yeah off that I mean so far down on the low self monitoring end of the spectrum then totally extremely disagreement now is the girl giver. That's a good question. I think it depended it depended on who he was interacting with that you see a lot of the telltale signs of being a taker in the way that he took credit for other people's work that he demeaned and disrespected other people. Might I think there's a huge difference between being demanding and being demeaning and you cross that line yeah consistently I think though that there were moments when he seemed more generous so there was an award that the MAC team did for years for the person who most courageously challenged. Steve Jobs OPS. Oh and every year that person got promoted since so you you saw him receive respecting but rewarding people who are willing to stand up to him. Oh interesting stay eighteen armchair if you dare. We are supported by shutter fly now. Kristen just made the coolest shutter fly books of our trip to Taranto with five families went. Took a Lotta pictures. VIEWING THOSE E we. What are you gonNA? You're GonNa go on your phone. You Scroll Scroll through a trillion pitchers versus she curated all the best memories in photos made it into a book. And now everyone has a physical copy of that experience. 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That's twenty percent off when you go to native deodorant dot com in use the code. Dax so I think it was an incredibly a complex character. Yeah but I'm GONNA use him a couple times as talk about some years. Yeah yeah because he does seem to him is what we think of is like an individualist. I non people all these things so that this takes us back a little bit to the question about our people you know. Is there a core of selfishness and what I think is. It's actually. I love this research by David Rand. Who says look you know? We think that people have these based Darwinian instincts to be selfish as possible and the way that we get to generosity. Is We build cultures and societies that reward and have rules and norms around. How you treat other people then override? You're selfish instincts. Right what David David shows is often as the opposite. That if you put people in a situation where they have to make split-second decision about let's say whether they want to donate money to a charity. That's going to help children who are are in poverty In the immediate visceral decision they are more likely to be spontaneously generous when they're not even thinking about it because the natural response to that feeling of empathy or compassion Ashen is to help give right exactly even even if it's at a real cost to yourself right whereas if he gives you a little time to think about it you become more calculated and you get into a slightly greedier more selfish mode and so I think it's a mistake to assume that we have a fundamental nature that selfish and then kind of layered on top papa is are more evolved kind of I think we have both. I think we have some base instincts to try to accomplish our goals and self serving as possible awesome. I think we have some equally powerful instincts to care and show concern and I think that the ideal state for most people if they care about their own success or the quality of the relationships chips is to get good at pursuing both of those goals simultaneously. Yeah boy I was just thinking about you. Know we are designed we have hardware. There's a reason babies look the way wave a look. There's a reason puppies and kittens. Look the way they look like. We do have some visual signals of when we should be more empathetic sympathetic and helpful helpful right. It's harder to feel bad for Schwarzenegger than it is screech. Well we know that Greece did a porno. I used a bad example. There's a whole separate he. Let's let's let's assume they didn't do that. I guess yeah murked up his own experiment airman there. There are some fun experiments that when you're exposed to cuter cats or babies your then more likely to be helpful and but not just helpful also more careful you you feel the need to be vigilant to protect somebody who might be suffering or creature that might be in danger right. And I think it's easy to see how those instincts evolved and would have been selected for for and even Darwin recognized it right. Darwin wrote in one of his classic books that a group where people were unselfish and they were trying to help other people in the tribe would actually uh outlast other tribes and that would be a form of group selection so in this work culture. Where you have takers and givers you have matches? The matches are people that are Ohama rabies code right like an eye for an eye. It's whatever's equal now. Explain what Monica is to me or or explain what you are. Because I don't know where I fit in that I'm I'm not sure that I'm so clear on taking her giving in the workplace so I think about it. In two ways one is what goals or motives And then the second is. What are your behaviors when you look at how other people perceive you and one of the things that a lot of us run into is we have a hard time judging her own styles and at first we find that a lot of people claim to be givers and then other people think? They're takers. Yeah and you're like okay. This is a weird version of the movie. The sixth sense everybody sales knows her a taker. But you have no idea. Yeah and a lot of people assume that's ego that we WANNA see ourselves and in the most positive light. Yeah but the research on. There's actually a says it's probably more about information that you actually the the the the classic work on this is married couples so you put them in separate rooms and you ask them of the total work that goes into their marriage. What percent are you responsible for and then three out of every four possibly add up to over one hundred percent. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Somebody's lying and I think that men generally overestimated more than women do anything you're right. I do unsurprisingly. What's really interesting about? This is if you break breakdown why it's not because you want to think that you're inherently a better partner than your spouse right. It's actually you want to believe that your spouse says it's probably the same kind of great partner that you are It's more that you you were there for every act of generosity. You did right you were you were you. Were present when you took exactly you remember every dish and whatever whatever your heart is doing you just can't recall that so I think that makes it hard to judge where we stand because we just know too much about ourselves and we don't have the we don't. We don't have good comparison with other people book but I think the For me one of the easiest tests is to say okay when you meet someone new. What is your first impulse? Are you looking for ways that you might be able to help them. Are you looking for a trade that you could do or are you evaluating the person in terms of what could this person do for me I someone who's known you for a long time Ashton Kutcher. All Ashton said that one of the most humble givers then he knows the day that the two of you met well but again. Let's just I'm going to own. The reality of it is. I was penniless. He gave me my first job. I've seen as they give her as well and also he held the keys to a lot opportunity for me so it was. It was definitely my best interest to be in that role roll with him. That's probably true. So just want check my own benevolence in say he did represent you know what is a better but is a better evaluation of friendship. Ship is what we are. Now which is I. I don't need anything from him. Anything from me and Ya I like to think yes. I would still be happy to help them move into his house. You know so that. So so. That's a bad test. Because he was in a position of influence. The better test is at different points in your life for your career. How did you treat people who couldn't do you any good doc? Give them the time of day. Did you try to explain them or did you say okay. How can I open the door for this person? So there's like a neutral space a non giver. I kind of I feel like if I'm being honest I am neither like if accurate. I'm definitely not trying to take or figure out what they can do for me. I'm just like I just do what I do now. Let's clarify one thing could because this is fun is it on. The acquaintance level is in on the friendship level. Is it on this coworker. Level what is it all is just one because I'll say within your friendships. You're trying to send their kids to a preschool. They want to go to. You're going to invite your friends and rent a house so they can have vacation so you know these people I love that seems different. Strata I think the definition of a real relationship is both people blur givers and neither person keep score unless things get way out of bounce right which happens so is this is just within co workers. Maybe that's how I've typically studied it. Yeah because I think it's where there's the most room for not knowing how to behave and then you start to see people's values come out a little bit. Yeah just seeing but I've also been opportunistic mystic and I evaluated when people could help me I think as well. I don't think that's a bad thing. Though right. You're you're supposed to be ambitious for yourself. Just not at the expense of other people right. And so when I've when I studied I think you're you're probably familiar already. With the thing I found when studying engineers and doctors and sales people in a couple of other jobs to the givers tended to fail a lot more than the Tigers and matters but they also succeeded a lot more which is kind of a cool? Well okay helping others sink your career or it could accelerated tolerated. Yeah and the biggest differences between the successful in the failed givers were not about their intelligence or talent or ability. They were really about whether you looked out for your own an interest as well as trying to help other people. So could you give us a concrete example of how a giver could excel or or you know end up at the top of this chart. Yes one one of my favorite examples is Kat Cole. So she was raised by a single mother who had to work three jobs to feed the family food budget of ten dollars a day and by the time that cat turned fifteen. When it was legal she started working to help support the family so selling clothes in a mall and then working in a restaurant and she was the kind of giver? We're who was always looking for ways to pitch in so one day in her restaurant Cook doesn't show up and cat is the first person to raise her hand volunteer and run back into the kitchen. So that meals are served served and then a manager quits and cat takes it upon herself to start organizing people's shifts and making sure that everyone still has a predictable schedule. And you look at that and you say wow what a doormat. We see especially women are likely to get taken advantage of and stuck with that kind of office housework or kind of invisible oh contribution but in case. She ends up getting invited to open up the company's first restaurant in Australia and the reason for that is she's the only person who's worked every job in the restaurant run. All that time. She spent helping other people solve their problems. She was learning and building skills to solve the whole company's problems to capitalize on exactly ugly. And so you know she. Her career just takes off from there and by the time she's twenty six. She's in charge of corporate training By thirty two. She's named the President of a little company called cinnabon. Okay she's now running that and jump juice and anti ends and a bunch of other franchises and so you can see from her story. How clear it is that helping actually has A? It has a learning advantage wjr but that was a clear consideration for her when she helped write. It wasn't oh I'm just GONNA do all these random task that nobody's going to appreciate. I'm going to help. In areas that are strategically. She did important to actually getting our work done. And I'm going to do it in places where I can pick up new skills. I would imagine the advice could be. I don't know what your advice is but like like being a giver but have boundaries kind of like the same interpersonal things that we would want. It's like that's exactly. That's exactly what I would recommend you want to have boundaries around who you help how you help and when you help now people will respect boundaries people. Actually it's counterintuitive you. You think you're not pleasing them but actually admire you. They look up to you. They trust you more. They you know they know you value yourself. And then they're forced to value us. Well Yeah I think I think that's. That's something that a lot of givers don't realize until much later in their lives or careers though Where they can fuse early on the idea that I want to be helpful with I have to say yes to all the people all the time all the requests? You know. It's funny now that you're saying it's like boy that really details the difference between my mother and father so perfectly and my father was a car salesman and it's fucking kill we every man for themselves take what you can get steal L. A.. fucking guy if he turns his back. Steel customer you know and for many years he made more money than my mom and my mom was start as a janitor at GM then worked in the tool crib rib always volunteering for overtime. Had Support US three kids and accumulated all these bizarre skills. Not Unlike the story you just told and then ultimately my mom ended making much more than my father because she started a business and she knew how to do all these aspects in all much different And I was always just so happy I felt like there was justice in the world when that turned out that way. I think that's interesting. Finding when you look at the givers who fail versus the ones who succeed is most giver failures in the short term. Because you know day to day you are are sacrificing some of the time you could be devoting to your own work you are. Maybe you know helping other people get things done as opposed to kind of advancing your own agenda And that that seems like a disadvantage in the short run but in the long run not only are you learning more. You're also building trust Whether you're a taker give her a matcher. You want to be surrounded by givers verse. People tend to value those people over time and so I found that the giver send a rise. Yeah I've always thought you know in business you you can fuck people over but you can the only fucking over once. It's GonNa be a big score but you better be able to cash out. That talked everyone over. We have certain examples currently that confusing away with it. You get away with it but that that depends often on whether they're matters in that system because matters of the people who hold takers accountable. Right the givers the more likely to let them get away with it over and over again matters. No My job is to be the Karma police wheel this sort of justice. If you're a taker is my mission in life to just punish the hell out of you. Oh I have I have I suffer from that a bit now. I got a woman thing. Oh back to that selfish thing. I think it's I'm acutely suspicious of it because I happen to be married to someone who most people would agree is the most generous helper. Give her on the plant out and truly is so. It's your job tip protect kristen. No it's that I look at her and she is by all measures a better person than me much more generous much more. Empathetic always there for somebody buddy. But I am her partner and I'm not wowed by her. She's my wife twelve years and I go she's just as Fucking Ego Maniacal Zion. She just her. I'd entity is this. She is supporting her own identity. Neither bizarre better. I happen to get identity out of doing wheelies on motorcycles or rather self esteem. That's not in her bag. She gets it out at rescuing dogs. She's just a human like everyone else in their path to self esteem happens to be that. Got It okay. So this is super interesting thing. I would say a couple things on that. The first one is. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting psychological rewards from helping right. That's that's part of what fuels the people's desire to keep helping and if you're constantly stepping in pitching in for other people and it's draining you then then you're GonNa stop doing so right. I think we wanted to be reinforcing so I wouldn't fault anyone for either getting self esteem or joy or some kind of ego boost right out of being helpful. I think though that there's a difference between doing it because you want that boost and that boosts being a byproduct of the action So what you see with a lot of givers is yeah. It makes their day when they're able to help someone else and I feel this all the time as a teacher. The one of the things that happens in my life now is I work with a lot of different kinds. Organizations is often easy for me to find if somebody wants a job in their dream company. It's often easy for me to say student. Hey I actually know the person who runs that organization let me. Let's see if I can set you up an interview and that is the highlight of my day. No question yeah but I didn't do it because I wanted to feel good. Did it because I cared about the student and I thought it would be really really meaningful to try to help them achieve their goals and then oh cool there's this kind of reward that comes after it which is a nice surprise? I don't know if this applies as something you see in in your marriage but for a lot of givers the joy is kind of an afterthought or an after as opposed to the driving motivation. And she she was raised in an environment were her. Kindness wasn't exploited and I was and so I might be inclined to help somebody but I have a pretty pretty lethal fear that I'll be taking advantage of so this is this is An interesting this is something I often see with with people who have kind of mixed excape matching instincts. Ms You want to help but you also have been burned a bunch of times right and you've seen people get taken advantage of and so there's a strong I wouldn't think about that is taking its more strong self-protective drive and I think that's healthy right. I think we we all need to have a spidey sense the tingles when. Somebody's out to get us. Yeah it's funny because I came into this thinking. Okay I can share this evidence about how givers can rise. We're going to motivate a lot of takers to become more generous uh-huh and that has not given his adding the impact. That's not in the effect the effect has been for a lot of givers to say. You know what I don't have to give up on this I was burning myself out or I was getting burned. And that's not destiny for a giver. I just need to be more thoughtful about the choices I make and so you know I. I don't think anyone has to be a giver to be successful but I think it's a more meaningful way to succeed. Split if if you could achieve your goals and elevate other people along the way. It's kind of exciting well. Well that is funny and counter intuitive that the result of the book was Actually Two D.. Shame probably the giver and it didn't shame the takers in a way that you have gotten a few emails over the last few years from people saying you know seven people gifted me this book and I thought Oh I'm such a giver and then it got coming taker okay. Now let's give and take now. Here's where you and I really got excited Ah Sam interview and I think this is where it all comes from that you then wrote originals. How nonconformist move the world? If I'm correct about this what we took from. That is that genius thing we put on a pedestal is not the product of quality as much as it's the product of quantity. Is that the book where this kind of Yes comes from. Yeah so the the basic thing. I was curious about was about how there's so many people in the world with creative ideas. I'm not just talking about about you. Know artistic creativity. I'm talking about you have an idea to improve your immediate environment. So you think the culture of your organization is broken. Or you've come up with a product product that you think is a slight improvement and you might WanNa go on shark tank Monday right and I think that the data show very clearly that most of us never do anything about those ideas and the big question. Here's why I think I came. I came on a few answers. One is we don't know how to judge her own ideas and figure out if they're any good right and then we don't know how to speak up about them and get other people on board word and so I really wanted to write the sequel to creativity and say once you have an idea. How do you champion it and make it reality? And so I came in with his pig. It was a really clear expectation for me that original thinkers were just cut from a different cloth. They are daredevil. They love to take risks. They're extremely family passionate. And they have total conviction that their ideas are going to work out. And they're just biologically wired. Yeah to say okay I I have a came out of the womb with vision Asian. How it was going to change the world and I'm GonNa go do it and be a prodigy along the way? Yeah I found the opposite of all of those things. I found that this is true for creative. Scientists artists entrepreneurs you can see it in any domain that they were very consistently the people who generated lots and lots of bad ideas. The more bad ideas. You have love the more ideas you haven't so you have a better shot at something onto a good one which was cool. They constantly questioned themselves in doubted themselves. So you have Michelangelo fleeing thing when he is commissioned the Sistine Chapel because the task is just so daunting it doesn't think he can pull it off. You Have Martin Luther King Junior saying no I do not want to run the civil writes revolution. I don't WanNa be in any kind of position of influence in this movement. Because I'm trying to focus on my my job as a pastor And you know these are very consistently recently people feeling reluctance and questioning whether they can make it they also a lot of them. Were really slow to to get into pursuing whatever their their original pathways and so they had to have their arms twisted. They were often the latest movers. And some of them were even baked procrastinators and I just looked at that and said original thinkers are not that different from the rest of us. Yeah it's very encouraging and empowering to hear that none of these people were superheroes and that they also procrastinated I mean the classic take encouraging examples. Always like Ray kroc invented. McDonald's it well he franchise McDonald's and fifty two and as I've always said I'm nervous to get past fifty two because 'cause that'll no longer. We need someone older now you need to go to the physicists. Who Nobel Prize in their eighties threatened? He still hoped for me. Yeah but you do a great job of you're you're like Amateur Historian on Edison. Right like Edison is someone. You're obsessed with. Edison is such an interesting example here because I always thought of have him as one of these creative geniuses every idea he had took off yeah and he had a a thousand forty three patents while only six or seven of them had any any lasting impact on the world and there were so many duds along the way you look at the talking doll he created. It was so creepy that it scared adults not just kit saw. Aw Nowhere he tried to invent. Although maybe time Chucky a movie about I would not chuck out. But he he he just he consistently spent his wheels on things. That didn't work and you look at that as an example of saying. Wow if if one of the most prolific inventors in history had to fail that many times in order to get a few successes. It's good news for the rest of us. Yeah it's very encouraging you know. He was tenured at twenty eight years old. When Young Thomas? Edison what's your thoughts on tenure. You're obviously you like the you have it. Yes I plan to keep it. Yeah and do you think I think it's good for the protection of spreading ideas and freethinking and all that I'm kind of torn on it. There's a big experiment going on in Western Europe right now where you Yusei and professors to five to ten year contracts and the idea is then you give them a long runway so that they can really pursue big ideas. I can see that you know allowing wing for some degree of freedom of speech but I worry about it more in in areas. Where the work that you do Mike it politicized right you you think okay? I'm never going to get a job again if I voiced my opinions so I think it's really important for freedom where it's even more critical in some ways though is for attracting motivated kind of curious people into the field because I know when I was looking eh different jobs. One of the draws for me was at I as somebody who always felt financially insecure dead. Yeah that that I'm going to have a job for life and ah I'm GonNa have that sense of security. It convinced me to do that. As opposed to pursuing lots of other fields and I think that's true for a lot of professors and so I think I worry about the the loss of talent if we abandon it altogether sense. You know what's funny is do you know who ted Olson is. I don't think so I could be wrong about this but if I'm wrong he then he's the top three I think he's he's the most successful at trying cases in the Supreme Court. He Got Doma overturned but he also got citizens united upheld so so he. He's interesting because he's been on the left and the right and we had the unique pleasure of going to dinner with him at one point and he got into a little argument about tenure teachers the professors he thought it was Horse Shit and how I got him was I said. Will you believe in the appointment of the Supreme Court right that that should be a lifelong thing so that people can go against against popular mob mentality we need so what if someone I put. Of course they served it up to him on the right so if there's a professor somewhere in the physical sciences that discovers we we are not responsible for global warming that couldn't get out on liberal campuses unless there was tenured like if someone really discovered that they could not publish that they would get Friday if not for ten years so there are situations where it's like it serves a real purpose. Yeah and the history of science full if those examples yes of huge paradigm shifts shifts that seemed to unravel all of side Hernandez Galileo Darwin. Yes you four walls him yes you did. uh-huh okay another thing. I want you to talk about briefly because you're great at explaining. Is this notion that people humans in a workplace and I would argue just humans. uh-huh traveling through life should have this as manuals. Humans should come with a manual co workers. You should publish a manual how to use you in how how helpful that would be so. This is a relatively new idea for me so I hope the Ted podcast called work life and my original goal was to say okay. I spent a Lotta time teaching things I already know. Two people right. What if I could reverse that and pick the the most interesting people and workplaces at around and go in and try to learn learn from what they do differently a little bit like if you wanted workout tips? You should go to an Olympic athlete. And you're trying to make the Olympics but because they know more about that thing yes and so so one of the things that I did was I went to a consulting firm. Bain that has a long track record of building amazing teams and what they're especially good at is they bring groups of people together who've never met before and all of a sudden they produce an analysis of a problem for a client that redirects the strategy of their business or or something to that effect and so they have to get the teams up to speed very quickly without a lot of on boarding. So you might get a call from an insurance company in Kansas. Saying you know we need you to to rethink our strategy and you have to pull from all these different people. Some of whom are currently working in Puerto Rico on a hotel company trying to expand. Yes and so they have to get really good at at teaming and figuring out how strangers injures can work as if they're old friends yeah and one of the things they did was. They had a group of managers. Who said you know what he's you buy a new piece of technology it's GonNa come with some kind of manual manual to tell you how to operate it right? You would never expect a car to come without an owner's manual And last time I checked the human mind is at least as complex as anything you can buy and probably a lot more more complex. Yeah it's a what if what if we created a manual for for how to work effectively with me and so I've actually done it. Since then which was one of the outcomes of learning earning about it so I wrote my own. I said here's what brings out the best in me. Here's what brings out the worst in me and here's how to work most effectively with me. And then when I when I asked what were some of those what do you want to. No one will bring out the worst in you. That's easy I can guess what I think someone someone that would be loud and aggressive of any variety towards you to motivate. You like if I was a coach and I was coaching. I don't think yelling at you would be a good. How do you know that that's true? I hate that I can just feel it. Oh Oh yours oh man I had a whole thing about I've never heard you say that. I don't think you've said that on. I don't think I've ever admitted it before. Okay but yeah no I. I think this is part of being agreeable is I like to please other people and somebody's mad at me. I WANNA crawl into a hole. Yeah whereas if somebody's you know seeing my potential or valuing my work I cannot wait wait to do more to try to make them happy. I also would imagine I came at it more from your clearly. A very sensitive nice human being who really wants to make things better around around him and I I think that personality type where we grew up could have been easily subject to like overly masculine Alpha Energy. Yeah Yeah I think I think that's definitely a target for bullying. Yeah I think that's fair so you know it's funny now. I used to find it threatening and now I look at really that uncreative that the only way you can motivate me to start screaming at me yes but again you've acquired a lot of capital beate get intellectual degrees financial security. There's all these things now that you can go. No No. I'M NOT GONNA play that game. Yeah Yeah like you acquire era which is nice and hopeful. Although I think that I think I started learning it before any of those resources were available so I remember when I was working as a negotiator initiator people would come in and play good bad cop and at first it was what do I do. I'm just one person. There's this tough negotiator in front of me. Who's going to you? What kind of bullying me into making a bad deal? Yeah and finally okay. What do I know is as somebody? WHO's studying psychology about how to deal with these people? Well what you do is you. Label will the behavior very gently. And then you test your understanding okay and so I had a pair of negotiators come in and they launch right into the routine and I just started. It's smiling and one of them said what are you smiling. I said Oh it looks like you're playing good cop bad cop at the they didn't know what to say. Because sort of routine an EH tender camouflage off just the wind is out of the sale and I said look you know I I enjoy all kinds of games. I'm happy to play. Good cop bad cop in fact I will gladly give you my best bad cop impression because I feel like we don't have enough of those around here. Yeah personally. I'd rather figure out if there's anything that you can offer me. That will help me meet my goals. And if there's anything can offer you that will help you meet your goals and if you WanNa have that conversation great if you WANNA fight tooth and nail to see who. The tougher negotiator is. You're not going to like that version of me and it was so easy to have that conversation. Yeah yeah a boy. I've had similar ones where I go like. Look you got nukes. I got nukes. We could annihilate each other. Do we could do it. Let's do it I. I'm happy to do it or let's just get right to the part where we come to our senses. That's awesome well. It's funny when you were saying that people should have a manual. Well let me just ask. How does one get the best out of you? The best out of me I think comes from a few things number one use should be a self starter so I hate managing people hate holding other people accountable. I WANNA work with people who are who are intrinsically motivated and so you know. Reach out to me after you've you've you know if you don't know the answer to something you've shown you've done your homework and I'm really excited to say okay. Is there something I know that that could help. Whereas if you ask me a question that you could google the answer to you? Don't waste my time I think that that's been a clear theme. The other thing that went in there because I gave it to a bunch of people who worked with me and said can in your answer these questions about me without telling them what I thought and one of the things I learned was I had no idea whatsoever that this is kind of a Best Anna worse but one of the things that brings out the worst in me is when somebody has a solution that they present to me without explaining what the problem is. I There's there's a switch that gets flipped as a social scientists. Say Wait a minute. How do we know that's the right course of action and do you have a randomized controlled experiment? Do you have longitudinal study. And I I go into this sort of litigating mode of trying. To debunk their solution. And if they would just come in and say hey. Here's a problem. How would you think about solving it then? Really excited to roll up my sleeves right interesting. So what would go in your user manuals. I'm way better with positive feedback instead of like negative like. Just tell me what you want. Not What I did what I did wrong. Why is that like if I feel super confident? That's when I do my best. I don't do my best one. I'm scared I'm not making the boss. Happy and they knew my worse. I get self conscious. I start thinking about the camera. I started thinking about my lines. I you know by the way I I hear the agreeable bonus in their again person who gives a shit if I'm making the bus doing I'm doing my role I can be pushed to that point but but it's usually after we already. Starting the starting point got it. Okay and Monica. This is your chance to tell Dax how to bring out the best in you. Yeah I think I'm similar. I like validation. I like getting credit for things I'm doing but I'm gone. I don't I don't like that about myself so I kind of want that to be the answer but it is. I think yeah I think regardless. I'm doing the same work if I'm happy happy doing it. It's generally because I know that person realizes what I'm doing here if I feel like I'm going unseen and I'm still doing a lot of work which I'm going to still do. I'm in a bad mood and I have a bad attitude. Maybe resentments are starting possibly. Yeah so I I like like feeling seen. I don't think there's anything wrong with a little bit. I don't know that I would expect anyone that gold the HUG I. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And in fact if when I think about the team that I wanNA work with that. Those are the most delightful people to motivate. Because you know exactly what fires them them. Up as opposed to constantly guessing. Now what do you think about this one thing it. I found that when I was a boss I needed to get. I find that my mom has us too because I worked for my mom for years and I thought she was incredible boss in many many ways but we have the same trigger which is like I feel like. I'll give people a lot of rope because I want a lot a lot of autonomy and ownership over what I'm doing so I'm trying to give other people that same autonomy and ownership which is not really a taskmaster and I get get fucking pissed when they forced me to be one like actually it makes me angry at them like cut them it. Now you're GonNa make me be the person I don't WanNa be. which is again I think some level of codependence like it's important to me that they like me and now you force me to do something that I you know? I think that's your discomfort with sometimes sometimes having to go into a boss mode I don't think you like doing that so but sometimes you have to. You're the boss. And so there is a little but of well. Shouldn't you guys just figure this out without me. Because I don't want to be the person that has to come step in. But sometimes he got you and you're the the boss man well. I think it's interesting to me that when these kinds of situations crop up were I think part of the problem is that you're not you specifically but anybody in this situation but let's talk about you. You're focused on your own your own preference. As opposed to saying my job is a leader is to do whatever is going to to get the job done effectively and so I've got to be a little bit flexible and adaptable and say sometimes in order to be effective I have to let go of my identity or my values or right preferred way working and that when push comes to shove that's what happens right as you say. Okay I will. I will be the more demanding boss because I care about the quality of the work. Yeah and I think that for a lot of bosses if they would realize that upfront that it would bother them less. I think you're totally right. I think if you just went into going I'm going to have to adjust and I'm going to have have to manage each per having like being the parent of children. Basically I have two parent my girls differently very differently. Well it's funny because I think I think it depends on the job because in this case like in your case and Chris case they weren't trying to bosses and they visited in the position where they have to be so it's not like they they went to business school or they're trying to be the CEO. Don't go too. I think that makes a big difference. Difference people who want to be leaders and people who accidentally become one. I agree although I will say. I've a former doctoral student Daniel tossing who did her dissertation tation on this idea of the reluctance to lead at one of the things she found was that reluctant leaders were often the most effective leaders. I mean think about it. Do you want to be managed by somebody who wants to have power over other people you want to be managed by the person who has no interest whatsoever in that role so I think that in some ways that makes people more effective. Active managers is to say you know. I'm not in this because I want to be in charge. I'm in this because I have a skill set or I'm able to get people to follow me and we. He can produce something really great together and so if you've been brought in to work with sports teams. Yeah so I've been working with some coaches in GM's across cost the major sports in the US With colleagues to try to figure out. How do we draft players? Who are givers and also have the humility in grant to WANNA keep improving? Yeah and and then how do we also build that ethos in the team road has been a lot of fun. It was interesting because part of the reason I got interested in a lot of these topics was everything I ever studied. As an organizational psychologist you get to zoom in on it in sports sports team. Yeah and so I would see that there were there. Were certain players who were like Shane. Batty in basketball is such a great example. Shane name is the guy who basically championships Michigan guy won championships at every level. Duke National Championship team. He's the MVP gifts the NBA A.. And discovers that. He's not as physically talented as most of the people he's competing against. He's accused of being too slow he can't dribble and so what a shame into. Shane starts to steady basketball statistics and discovers among other things that there are certain spots on the court where Kobe Bryant misses most of his shots and so he ends up adding value to the team. By saying my job is to guard Kobe and force him to the one point on the court where he's GonNa break a bunch of shots now and you see see that and you think okay that that is the that's the mark of a giver. I'd say I I don't have to be the superstar on the team. I'm going to find the one role I can play to make the team better and the funny thing is Michael. Lewis wrote a great article about this. He called Shane the no stats all star. Because he's he doesn't that's hard to evaluate really hard. We don't measure a lot of those contribution. Yeah I think in sports a lot but you see this in all kinds of workplaces you have people who elevate the team but there's no way to track what they're contributing yes yes it's not super tangible which is frustrating to me e yeah unjust now. Do you ever get imposter syndrome. And or or panic with the notion that you're being asked to solve a very nearly impossible thing to solve like you're coming in and they're going okay this person and is supposed to know how to make all work cohesively in. That's a very big undertaking that. It's just a very daunting task. Do you ever go like. Oh boy can I cash the check my ass just wrote I've never said that Not Quite like like that. I think the way it plays out is sometimes. I'll get contacted by people who have just. They've accomplished so much that it's hard for me to imagine that anyone knows was anything that they don't know right or that you know. I belong in the same room as them even. Yeah but then the thing that that occurs to me pretty quickly is to say okay. Hey you know. What are the cool things about organizational psychology? Is I know nothing about any particular organization but I see the same patterns happen in so many different collaborations I mean yeah and I also have this massive library of evidence that can give me a framework data points to say. Oh we'll have you tried this because we've we've tested this and and three other organizations and here's what happened. How do you think this would play out for you? There's a set of resources available there that they make it easy to be helpful but yeah I've definitely felt that I think one of the clearest times was working with Google and they said okay. We want you to talk for a global team. And you're going to speak right after Larry Page and your our question is if the organisational psychologists ran google. What should we do differently? I studied this. I never would have built google. Yeah Ah but then I think okay. We'll Larry Sergei engineers and they've never studied organizational behavior. And there's actually a lot that we know that might be relevant to them and so all of a sudden like oh I do things to say about this Yeah so is it more like in many cases for lack of a better better way to say it. Is it easier. Identify the negatives than to identify the positives in that it's easier to see what potentially is broken than it is to see what could be infinitely helpful that make any sense. Yeah it does know that. I've seen a big difference there so in the the Google case one of the things that striking to me was almost every great leap that they had made did was the result of a collaboration. So maybe I think g mail was invented by a sole engineer but otherwise it was either a dynamic duo or whole team and they came up with their their biggest I innovations and yet they hire individuals they promote individuals they fire individuals and add. Read all this research on. How if you WANNA take a team seriously? You might want to question that and say well. What if we actually if team did great work we promote the whole team? What if we ran a lift out and we found successful team from another organization and instead of hiring the one person we thought it was star there we brought in the whole team which seemed like a good idea because there's evidence both from Wall Wall Street analysts and also from cardiac surgeons that if they leave their team's performance drops dramatically even if thought to be individual superstars? Well in isn't even those goes to Larry and Sergei or whatever they themselves are like crazy famous team right they. They're much greater than the sum of their parts. That was that was the thought. And so you know you look at that that and you say we'LL I. I actually see the kind of the strength and the weakness at the same time. which is you have these moments of greatness but you're not organizing your company to unleash them as often as you could right and so let's talk about how we could do that? And then Google ended up doing a big study of what may their high performing teams different from the rest and then training all of their managers across the whole company to try to improve the performance of those who are struggling. Yeah to super cool. It's very cool. Are you familiar with the structure of Aa a little a bit. Not as familiar as you are. Okay I find a way to have some crazy magic sauce in that. It is an organization organization of sorts. Right and it's been around for. I don't know seventy eight years now. There's no leaders. No one's in charge. No one knows more than anyone else in the thing thrives and has results for some segment of the people that try it right. I've often been curious. Why nothing's modeled modeled after it? The thing is is anyone in organizational psychology world interested in the fact that this thing has existed in a pretty peaceful state in performing Lena task but without any fascinating I have not seen anyone. Ask that question. Okay because to me when I look at religions and stuff yeah I think it's almost a waste of time to kind of figure out whether they are implicitly. Better or worse or Florida. I think we're always seen is the human element in any organization sation. Yeah that has been empowered and then exploits that and then you know. The system seemed to all kinds of erode or corrode around that empowerment of a member. Yeah so I can think of to places where we we study. Things that are similar one would be in in studying strong cultures and how you create an organization where everyone agrees on what the values are and they're so passionate about them that they actually enforce them near to peer as opposed to needing some boss to control them right and then the other replace. We study this is in self management so actually I did a podcast episode where I went to a company that has really gone to the extreme on this I was interested. Sit In could we create a world without bosses so I went to this tomato paste. Company called Morningstar where they produce something like a quarter of the tomato paste in America and they make hundreds of millions of dollars a year. They've been running for thirty years and they've never had a single boss. Wow God does that work that be real and it turns out that one of the things that happens when you arrive there is. You're given the job description of the person who did your role before you and then after you do it for a little while you get to rewrite the job description and all you have to do is explain here the tasks I want to do. And here's how they advance the mission. You take that to the five to ten people that you have to work most closely with and then if they approve it you've just reinvented your own job. And so they consistently evolving that you noted there promoting themselves in a certain way. Yeah and no I mean looms. Last time you saw job description that was actually written for with one person who was doing it at that moment. Rise a great way to let people keep customizing their work and then you're reviewed on whether you follow through by your peers on all of your commitments. And and how does he behaved people. How do they decide who gets passed? They vote is a company based on your contribution which is remarkable. What hiring and firing they all all decide they all agree on hiring when it comes to firing? Can I ask how many employees are there because I could see this getting logistically impossible. How many they have right now? They grow a lot during the kind of the season and then they shrink in the off season hundreds if not thousands okay and one of the things they do for firing is. If I think you're doing a bad job I would say you know Dax you're not living up to the commitments you made so I think you're still leave and then you can either agree and leave or you can say no I disagree and then if if we disagree we actually would then appoint a we agree on a group of neutral mediators. Alcoa come and talk to us. And then they'll give us their opinion but you still have the chance to agree or disagree and if you still reject eventually the whole company would vote on it and they might bring in the founder to make the final decision all my down. I'm not saying every organization you work this way but when I think about a this is Kinda the closest yes model I can think of. And there's the same level of individual ownership rate that you said. Hey these are the steps that I want to take and then you expect that other people will hold you accountable for that yet. The only thing there is this book. It's the only asset of ASO's. Does this book that everyone seems to agree as they should follow but he had is. It just fascinates me that the guy who has six hours of sobriety is just as much much of an authority on. That book is a guy with thirty years. No hierarchy there sponsors right which you choose. Yeah you're still picking picking someone who you think has a little bit more experience in sobriety than you. Yeah Yeah you're supposed to find someone who has what you want so that you can get. Yeah they they have. I think this needs to be studied from an organism. I really do. I think there's something because when I get in fights with people about their particular religion I'm like there's gates like why why does some echelon have information that everyone else doesn't. I don't understand Christians. There's a there's a text. Why would one person understand the text more than another person wiser a guy with a robot telling me what the text says? It's right there. It's not like hidden. It's not even the Torah that you're you know now the irony understand it in somehow I always end up bringing into that. Okay lastly I I know the name of it. I'm not GonNa ask you so work life podcast. How often does that come out? Because I want people to listen to that. Oh thank you. That's very kind of you. We do ten episodes year. Oh okay that's manageable. Yes very manageable. So I pick the topics that I'm most excited to dig into and I picked the people who I think have mastered them and the workplaces that are doing them differently and then try to figure out how we can all make work suck a little bit less. Oh that's fantastic work life in where you had in your seasons. So we've done two seasons and were in pre production season three right now okay great so. When will that come out? You don't know February. It looks like February okay. Great lastly I read your article and it's really funny because now that we've been talking for two hours. I agree with nearly everything you said. You didn't know when I read. Stop trying to raise successful kids. which already I love the title? which is in the Atlantic? Is it right now. I feel like it was the December issue. Okay Stop trying to raise successful kids. There were a couple of things in here that I was like. I don't know that I agree with your. I love the statement. Let's to start there because I think the notion of success we've had we had a really great guy who teaches at Harvard. Come in and talk about what is success and I like challenging the notion of success I think fulfilment elements should be in that mix. I think there's a lot of things that we don't consider when we think of what a successful person so that already. I love my wife and I fight about this. We're in a current debate. We have ever made a decision but we have an ongoing debate or my daughter. The oldest one loves to dance. She's clearly got some kind of skill for and she goes. We should get. We should put you in classes. And I'm like what is she just likes to dance or what if that's it. What does this have to have a next stage? Can She just like the dance. I don't know if I'm right or wrong. Word Cord still on the debating phase of it. No decisions have been made but part of me goes no. That's the whole thing gathering class. Then she goes to another level then all of a sudden there's Evaluated now this thing. That's just as joyful thing. I don't know so anyways so the title. I really like. Tell me why you wanted to write your. Obviously the father of three kids adds up. Probably as part of the explanation. Yes so my wife Allison and I have been trying to figure out. How do we raise kids? Who are givers We want our kids to be kind and carrying. Yeah and I got an about that a lot after giving take like I duNNo. I study adults at work. Let me think about children. Don't want to be one of those psychologists who screws up our kids. Oh yes but Eventually we just about a year ago we decided we were going to write a children's book which which just came out? It's called the gift inside the box. Oh great and that's all right now. Yeah just just out and we were just talking a lot about okay. You know the the process of writing the book for US was about a mysterious gift box that that is kind of grabbed by all these entitled Kids Moore used to Amazon packages arriving at their door. Of course that's for me. Yeah and eventually the The gift box wants to go to the kid who wants to gift it to someone else and so we were talking about almost like a zone episode could be very well could but we were talking a a lot about okay. How do we take the ideas? We were trying to communicate in this book and teach them to our kids and really instill them and so I've been reading a lot of the research. Alison had been disagreeing agreeing with various points in the research. And eventually we said you know what one of the biggest problems is that parents think that in order to be a high achieving kid you have to to be totally self absorbed or self focused and even parents who don't think that we live in a society where you know you the questions you ask dinner are about. What grades did you get? How many goals did you score? I love that part and thank you and we. We never really thought to ask. Who did you help today? And who did you. WHO WHO? Who helped you to show that we care about these values and so I think that it just seems like a lot of parents don't know how to make that a priority They don't know how to teach their kids to be inclined and concerned about others and so without all right. Let's let's sit down and see if we can explain what we've been learning and trying to practice. What what did you disagree with? Okay so one of the things I I found triggering. I'll use the word Okay in some parenting circles for example. There's a movement against intervening when preschoolers are selfish in their play. These parents worry that stepping in might prevent kids from learning to stick up for themselves and say that they're less worried about the prospect of raising adult who doesn't share than one who struggles to say we know what I disagree with your interpretation of why not intervene so my kids go to preschool. We don't intervene. The whole goal that preschools conflict conflict resolution. So have you come in yell at me. Mike Stole Your Shit. I'll say did you tell Mike you don't want your stuff so so I won't intervene but not for the reason I I'm afraid my kids. It's not gonNA stick up for himself just because I want them to leave with the skill set so you're trying to teach self reliance and conflict resolution active dialogue because they're going to be in a million million conflicts. And if I solve them all or I come in and go you should have been sharing. You should intuitively want to share your thing. I feel like that's a little too much to ask of a a four year old. Got It and I also think that's not actually my goal. My goal is to force them to sort this out and if it starts going off the rails and people get physical. Of course I'll get involved it just shy of that. I'm good with that I I love I would love it if If every kid got got that opportunity because I I also I think it's all as the tattletale problem Have to learn to confront each other directly. Yeah the movement that that we were reacting to you specifically is parents saying you shouldn't teach kids to share air because if they don't wanNA share then they're learning to kind of assert their own boundaries. Know about you you teach kids that they can stand up for themselves and share our you teach kids that not everything in life is zero sum and that when you let one of your friends play with a toy oy that's not some cosmic loss for you. They've just one and gotten ahead right you just you let them experience the joy of playing with your toilet and then you're going to get it back. Yeah and so we were just reacting to the idea that you know that that sharing is somehow a sign of weakness. US It gets ridiculous. Yeah okay I completely agree with that. I got to give because I was harsh on my wife about her having Ego i WanNa say God bless her she's raising our kids Because she does all these weird things where she's like just try once if someone likes the toy and offer it to them when they leave and so my kids have got to experience this the joy of having given someone joy which I don't don't know that I would have had that instinct in so they've had a bunch of practice now of like making people's Day now. I think we have another problem where they try to give everything away. It's pretty damn cute. So sweet very sweet and I think it's easier to adjust from that then to say I raised entitled Selfish Kid and now I got to change their values right. Okay now. Here's another one first of all. I've loved the article so I'm only say they won't admit to the fact that I read it like a horoscope genevieve will read horoscopes. It's like the things that they want to be true. They find and then they just kind of shovel way dealer so all this stuff that confirm my own point of view I was like oh I love and I was just kind of jealousies of the eighth graders. Leaders with the greatest academic achievement moreover are not the ones who got the best marks five years earlier. They're the ones who were rated most helpful by their third-grade classmates and teachers So I imagine that is a true statistic. I don't challenge statistic but I do remember reading an article about creative. Kids are the hardest on teachers. They're the most difficult. They're challenging this yaw that you're laying in front of them and again me as a challenger. I was like wait a minute. Of course of course kids who teachers like more. Do better in school. Because they're going along with the program Got It so I kind of a knee jerk like. Yeah so the there is evidence that the most creative kid in class is the least likely to be the teacher's pet right there. I never knowing the program. Stop raising your hands. Not You taking us off schedule. So this effect has been replicated a few different times and sometimes it's done with pure ratings of helpfulness as well. Okay so I would think about creativity. Access is separate from the helping or kindness access. Okay and what we're seeing. Is that the kids who are are helpful. Either because they have the natural instinct or because they've been taught to be that way who knows. A few things are happening number one. They have a purpose for learning. That goes beyond just their own immediate personal goals. They can say okay. The more I learn the more I can can share with other people and that sort of connects them to community as opposed to feeling isolated and that's motivating for them. A second thing that's happening is when they spend all this time I'm helping others. They're actually improving their own learning and we we all know that the best way to learn something is to teach it and so these kids are actually doing themselves a favor by explaining inning stuff to their classmates and kind of trying to fill the gaps in their understanding. Yeah and I think you can do all that. And also be the creatively disruptive kid okay. I like to be helpful but I also want to march to the tune of my own drummer. who were I okay? Great does all this support this kind of notion that there is a approach for kids. There seems to be a little bit out of a desire for people to create the perfect kind of person kid. And what I argue sometimes is that no oh and this is again a frame it another way too. I often get frustrated with Republicans and Democrats that they actually think that if the whole country was either Democratic or Republican that would be a perfect country. I argue no. We totally need each other to reach some rational middle ground. So doesn't the world needs Steve. Jobs was and mother Theresa. Isn't that what this world requires for us to function. Don't we need some asshole selfish fucker. We don't okay tell me why so. Okay Steve Jobs if he were less of an asshole would even kicked out of his own company in the Mid Nineteen Eighty S. How much more could apple have done between eighty five and ninety seven? Maybe Steve Jobs need to go off and take a different perspective and refreshes thinking maybe he needed to evolve and become a little bit more mature and a little bit less. That's nasty actually. I talked to Walter Isaacson about this so he interviewed what two hundred people who were closely with jobs knew him well the guy who wrote the black and he said the most consistent insistent theme was people said Steve Jobs could have been kinder That it would cost him nothing to show a little bit more respect to other people and they would have worked that much harder for him because they felt like he was giving them credit. They felt like they were valued and loved. And I think that when people say well you know Steve Jobs look at all the success he achieved but he was an asshole. I would say yeah. He achieved a lot of that success. Not because he was an asshole but in spite of his ASS Hillary in insistence dynamics hammocks. There's a term Equa finality which is clunky but it means many eight routes to the same end okay and any complex system by definition as Equa Final all right. You're you're in a maze. As opposed to a tunnel okay and so if you think about that okay well one way to be you know to have extremely high standards is to be a tyrant different. Yeah but that's not the only one and I think we all have lots of degrees of freedom to say okay. What are the different ways that I could achieve this goal and I would love to see more people say all right? You shouldn't idolize Steve Jobs. You should idolize a specific value or a specific skill or behavior that he had and I think his you know he had a superpower are it was clearly obsess I mean he was obsessed with perfection. The hit the probably the highest standards of anybody in his industry and so great. Let's take that and now let's figure out all the different ways we can make those standards of reality in in our own lives. Give because there's does seem to be this weird equation where it requires one person. Listen to go. No it's possible and everyone else goes. No it's impossible. There's naturally going to be friction when you talk about a lot. In your first book there is friction in that but it does require one person to hold firm and go no. It's possible and I just got to get you all buy into that by Hook or crook. I don't I'm not the best strategies you do that your profession but is there room for someone to be going. No it's possible you must join me and still be kind and it's always hard for me to to take specific examples because I think most human beings are flawed. Sure and you know anybody that I say was a great giver. You'll find a moment. Where they they probably seemed more like a taker or they were had a perverse sexual life? Ya Lots of ways to disqualify someone. Yeah and then. They're canceled and I never hear from them again. I would I would rather do is say. Let's look at the evidence and so one of my favorite studies looks at CEO's of computer hardware it's offer companies and you can either get them rated by their CFO's on whether they put other people's needs above their own whether they care about their own teammates mate's wellbeing as opposed to just profits or you can also look at indicators of whether they're takers like do they have giant photo themselves and the company's annual report do they pay themselves a lot more than everybody else in the company. Do they talk about the company's success using words like I in me and when you do that what you see. Is that the takers actually. Their companies have more fluctuating volatile performance. So they're overconfident. They tend to swing for the fences. They take huge risks. That you're lucky for awhile. Yeah sometimes is it pays off in the long run. They end up making systematic mistakes and they lose they bleed talent. Because if you're a star you don't WanNa work for a taker forever and screw this. I'M GONNA go work for somebody great whereas the givers have much more sustainable long term performance they earn loyalty. Even there people leave they start referring other people they often boomerang and will return and people feel like okay. I'm working here for not only a mission. I believe in but a person I believe in and I look at that evidence I say okay. We see that across hundreds of companies. I don't need one individual role model. WHO's an amazing giver? I have is the experiences of lots and lots of people cumulated and and that tells me it's it's very possible I think a lot about Have you do you know radios work at bridgewater no on on radical transparency and idea. Meritocracy this is so spent a lot of time studying this hedge fund that spin wildly successful and one of the things they do is they say. Look it's actually a a mark of of caring about someone to challenge them because it says I believe in your potential and I care about your success. I done a podcast episode there on how to love criticism I would love to learn them love cruise or at least to crave it even. If you don't love me yeah yeah Knowing you need it but the big thing I took away from that was they had bill the whole culture where they said. Look if you say something nasty about a person behind their back. You're doing them a disservice. Because there's a potential learning opportunity that you're depriving them of uh-huh and so if they catch you backstabbing someone. They will take you in front of that person and say please front stab them. So then they can. They can find out what the feedback was. Yeah and they've done that with the entire your company buying in to say no one has the right to hold a critical opinion without speaking up about it. If we all follow that principle we can say look. I think you did a really really crappy job today and you know here are the ways that you could be better and I could hear that and say that's coming from somebody who's like a sports coach. Yeah they're trying to help me improve. Yeah Yeah and I I would love to see more collaborations work that way. I guess if it's happening to everyone would hopefully taking personal it. Also one of the things you learn to do there as you learn. I'm to give yourself a second score so when somebody goes to to criticize you you say all right look. They've already given me the D. minus catching. I can't suddenly convinced them that I deserved in a minus right all I can do. I can say I'm going to try to get an a plus for how well I took the D. minus right and I'm actually evaluated in my performance reviews on whether I can take critical feedback have an incentive to say. Hey whatever whatever problems you have with me bring it on and I know that my success here whether I get promoted whether I get paid it depends on showing that I can take that that learned for me to me. That's a dream employ. Amazing I mean what. What more could you want in an employed and someone that's like open to change and you're not GonNa shut down so in that spirit? I have a rule that whenever I whether I'm GonNa Stage or whether I'm working with someone new I I always ask what's the one thing I can do better and so you can either tell me now or when you do your fact check later you can do it and I'll listen to find. Find out what you said. I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. I literally can't Iraq lame to. You're not helping me so you're definitely not to give her. Ah something we'll all have. I think rob can probably come up with something I'll help it. They'll wear the big tee. The scarlet T- taker in all seriousness. I think this is such an important practice because here I am interacting with two people. You've spent thousands of hours now right listening to lots of different people talk. You have a ton of wisdom about what it takes to be interesting and insightful. And if I don't learn something from you dude then I have failed in part of my job as somebody who learns for a living as you're GONNA you're GonNa have to decompress because currently I'm just like this was a great fucking Inter Y.. Yeah I know when we have a great lead true and there are always areas of it. Maybe Jordan's cheesy easy. We have virtually the exact same style complains. You're biceps are fucking gorgeous. I see some vascular hitting the weight room. Everything's he's looking good We'll add them. We're so glad to have gotten to finally talk to you because we've talked about you so often we will continue to do so. That's a treat to be here after listening and enjoying so many episodes. Oh good until please check out. He and his wife's Children's book which is called the gift inside the box. The gift inside the box and then listen to work life podcast which is exciting and then also get yourself into the wharton business school so you can take a class with them. I hope you you are in teacher. Heaven over there and I hope everything's going exactly how you would hope because I'm so excited by your work and it's really fun to have you vacate l'ennemi hair so I feel pretty lucky. Okay great please come back and talk to us again when you write another article and I'll try to poke holes in it and he'll tell me to make you regret that okay and now my favorite part of the show. The fact check with my soul mate. Monica Batman Oh l. come onto the armature experts. It really bothers you. Let's get real. It actually bothered you know no no no it. Doesn't it doesn't blanket Louis. Okay but sometimes I feel like when you start on these things. There's just no end in sight. Well it feels very inward like. I'm not here when you're doing that. You're gauging with me. You're on your own ride side of doing you know I'm actively trying to make you laugh. I'm trying to think of words that you would laugh at. I said Yeah I said like GITA play it makes sense. 'cause nobody struck Atelli on a play and called a strategy Attila. So all of it is to make you laugh. No no but it's it doesn't feel like there's join in. I guess. Serve any accents of mine that you know I like it. I like it. Always unserious to there are accents. You lie like it when you do an eye makes it does make me laugh but then I feel like it goes on and on in awe ooh on its volume quantity over quality quality the quality issue at all quantity little that just a little bit because I do I can neto the neat though do okay. Hey Great Chow Bella and put that on the shelf now. Okay okay. Great Adam Grant. I'm in love. I'm in love me to join the ranks. Eric Topol. Yes yes. He's already emailed him as many times. I've emailed Eric told you kind of stuff. Are you sending well. He's connecting us with so. How many other experts and I just WANNA tease one of them for real dream Gala? We've been vocally wanting for two years. Had Him on he he was fantastic. Yeah No. He knows everybody in the intellectual sphere in the world of academia in the he knows everyone. He's very connected yet very humble. Oh my God you're not gonNa find a level of humility with his with his the credentials. Exactly what a humble guy and he seems very normal when he comes in he doesn't have an heir to him at all even though he's from West Bloomfield or the rich people are from right right. Yeah he didn't trigger any my rich people stuff. He emailed me ice cream. He mailed you ice cream stretchy tele scheduling. How as a thank God we? That's crazy because we were begging begging to have him on but he wanted to be onto. Here's my thing I think. Think of considering things I don't have time to execute them. Yeah I mean I think there's different mindsets it's I think it's more switching of a mindset like it's not even an option for him not to do it he's not thinking like do I have time is just like this is what I do. I wondering does even assist in. He said Send Ma ice cream to rob ordered online to online. Now it's getting more reasonable. I rice and bought a cooler. Fuck and we had someone way at the Goddamn post office. I don't think he did I do Ooh. That most people can't do that. I don't think he did that but if he was doing that. He has some other time management strategy that I could really benefit from. I know but listen I first of all. I don't the as an assistant because he responds all my emails immediately. And so humble. He's a humble and he is cute as hell to so cute but it's still like he had the thought to do something nicer than he executed thaw immediately. He didn't put it on a To-do list. There's something to be learned here from him and I don't know what it is back on just to ask them how to be considerate thoughtful. Ever as everyone knows by now yes yes he is he. He asked to give him criticism and we didn't we so we will give it to him on the fact check requiring. It's we have to do it but isn't it possible that I'm I don't have a criticism of somebody. Yeah but he said that's bullshit and not fair to him and he and I love that attitude. I do too but like you. You can watch. I watch beyond facing one plus one on American idol. I don't have any criticism for that. I mean flawless. Things happen right. They do they do they do but he he wants it so that he can grow. I don't think that's good and I'm GonNa give him one okay. Great yes so mine is that I think because we've been in touch through email and he always responds very quickly and very thoughtfully. This feels was like such a good courtesy. I just hope I hope. He's not sacrificing his own life and his own time and his own needs for other people's needs site although he says he says he enjoys it so I I don't know I mean I believe believe him but I get nervous when someone is so giving. They're sacrificing their own stuff and that's just my fear. snarly snarly a furnace. Well then yeah mine would just be a suggestion of like Make sure your question whether you're narrative is taken over like I said this about Jay Leno I get the fact that he's a guy who's never swimming pool and doesn't take vacation but that becomes something you say to people and then the result is you don't ever go on vacation Asian or swimming pool with don't think is advisable but understand how so so Adams premises givers succeed. So he's got to walk the walk. Yeah but I would just ask them the challenge his own narrative occasionally. That's our criticize. It can be dangerous when you identify yourself with a concept because it doesn't leave a lot of room for just change right like he's declared at a young age I don't know what ag was when he wrote that book but let's he's thirty six and he declares this is the way to live. Yeah and then what then. There's no changer right of evolution. That maybe maybe figured it out at thirty six kind of sounds like he did so you might have in presentation and the way communicates and his ideas. I don't have any criticism for that. Yeah and then he again. He walks the walkie connected us with all these people that we love and we've had some successful books and children's book is truly phenomenal. Aw Favorite Book. We voted the kids in here. I would have to know more about his personal life. Well no I don't think he's asking for criticism on that. Well all one thing I think in some way it's all one thing we know that's true in a way I'm sorry rem. I I liked everything so I'm GonNa stick to what we just said he's too he needs to make sure he's meeting his own needs before before meeting others by putting his life mask on i. I don't know if he's doing that right. Because it would appear that it'd be very easy to get codependent with that in order which is like. I need people to think I`Ma give her very need be I want people to. I don't know but again I don't. I don't know that he's paying any price. It's probably just great. Holly is but that's our criticism. Email fat too fast and we appreciate it. We were super grateful and we loved. You WanNa talk to you like every. Yeah I wish to me that would be the criticism like Oh yeah. I'd be cool. If he came came back in a year. Now I'd be cool. Became next week tells me tells me I have no criticism. It would be a delight to have him back every right to have him as a member of the podcast. So maybe the criticism is. He's too likable. He's not a member of our podcast. Yeah that's so. My criticism is he's not here enough. Yeah did you think. His publisher flew out here. I don't know the question because could be a criticism like maybe he should've asked to pay for his trip or something. I would want to reimburse him if he flew out here to talk to us and he and we own the money for the ice cream and the books him for money so much money. That's her criticism. Adam give us a bill. Yeah we we haven't got your bill yet. Your lay on. Yeah Oh he needs to definitely use square could really help voice. Yeah Join Square atom. That's what I'm mad about okay. So some facts poops poop poop sees a drop Djirak than the toilet now. We've united had a little evolution in our friendship in that farting around you more. Yeah are you gonNa let me smell them. That's right I'm not there yet. Definitely not there yet. How do I feel about that? I feel two things I feel happy. Okay great first and then I feel excluded. No no smell. Well Yeah I feel actually I it from the smell then I feel feel happy then I feel like oh I guess he just doesn't really care anymore about. I know you wanna both ways one was like. I don't trust the enough too far around you and then soon as I did is that I don't care about what you think about. Yeah that's right formation is now. It's it's because you don't let me smell it that I know it's not that you're so comfortable. Well now what I won't even do. I wouldn't do this in front of my family. I would only do it in front of air. Weekly he is. I have a very specific vic reaction when I eat a lot of onion rings which was discovered in seventh grade on the bus ride to Mir junior high and Aaron and I were in the back of the bus fucked up the whole? Oh my God. It was definitely if I'm like career Bart's it was terrible. It was it was. I remember it still. It was an act of terrorism. Oh and I I was embarrassed by an even was like that's too much for kind of a situation Jewish but it wasn't an accident or on purpose. I didn't know it was going to be stink yen way. It's very specific and so I will pretty much. I would only do that in front inherent. Because he's a disgusting man just like me. I mean he is so disgusting in the way I'm discussing so it's Kinda like more now now both gross. That one was My mother which you know we didn't have junk food. We just within the budget but on this rare occasion occasion she brought home one of those big bags of frozen onion rings and I just put them all on a baking sheet and cook them all and I ate a couple pounds. I loved it. I couldn't stop myself. Wow and I just didn't know that was going to be the outcome now. I've right so I've never eaten him in that quantity. I don't think Sam Okay if you notice now when we go somewhere that has onion rings up in four or five of them. I won't get my order of fearful. You were burned. I was Burma onion rings. Wow Okay so he said that he was barely good enough to get on harvards diving team but then we had another guest on knows Adam who said that. He's a phenomenal diver Huey. Currently he's still an exceptional diet. He dove recently and it was very impressive. Also you know what I would like to talk to him about about but I don't WanNa make him uncomfortable. Is You know. I'm a student of the Olympics. And what I'm specifically student of is like what activity gives you the most rock and bod and is you know for me for my money that sprinters. Yep that's the sand volleyball players. It's the GODDAMN divers. The male divers have crazy goodbye. I mean leeward. Subjective but muscular annely. Yes it's nice almost gymnast's Miss Bodies. which kind of makes sense? I guess the rotating in the air that requires so much abdominal is all in the APPs but they also have really nice but cheeks six. The Olympics are coming up so excited Tokyo. Twenty twenty. Doubt you'll even have let me snowsuit so My friend Rutledge Rutledge. Who you met the other night? Yeah will use in town covering some Olympic style. Oh yeah you know. They do those stories before they get taste. Yeah so I guess he was in town filming one of those ally and he said. Do you want to go to Tokyo Olympics Mike it should we go to the Tokyo Olympics. Maybe oh I would love to okay. Maybe we should go. Although I kind of like watching it we we could watch it in our hotel room. We go there and then we stand that we had a couple of events that we were gonNA spectate okay but then the ones we thought would play you better on TV. We'll watch those. I like this idea to stay at the park. Hyatt scene of the lost in translation. ow What did it sound. Time the time to be allies. Unlike a time okay. So he's a super taster And it's super taster. which we didn't really get into if you have more than thirty taste buds in a space the size of a Hole Punch on your tongue Then you're super taster. So you can test it by cutting out a piece in counting the buds you cut out a hole punch circle okay and then you put on your tongue and then you count you. Count the piece of paper on your the account. The tea buds. You won't be able to see them under the Patriots to the other deals. You outline out there you go either the outline or put the piece of paper on your tongue and then outline it with a felt pen. No don't do that for sharpies for breakfast. There are super tasters. Average tasers non tasters. Oh I see what you're supposed to punch a standard notebook whole into a clean piece of plastic or wax the paper and put it on the front tongue that way you can see through it. The whole the dots talk. But it didn't sound like it was a pleasurable thing you you'd think being able to taste things better would be would be nice but it sounds like a detriment to his life. He doesn't like chocolate. There's my critique get some taste buds removed. Yeah so you can enjoy chocolate and coffee chocolate. I've been wanting chocolate. Donut for days. Too Long yes ray. KROC was fifty two too good right about that left handed. People make up ten percent of the population as you said. We were talking about left-handed people on on our own couple of months ago and what we realized what we saw was left handed people. The percentage of them is varies aries drastically amongst different countries that was fastened which I thought was fascinating and I think what they were saying was in some countries. It's considered bad. Had left handed so they kind of force these kids at a young age to deal with the program to start writing with the right hand. Even if that's not what there's you know naturally good at or my favorite teachers in college was a German professor who taught geography couple. Different Cool classes with with him and He's he'd say the weirdest stuff to me. He liked me in some weird way like we had some weird connection stench. We'll one was. I was allowed to use a word processor. Assertive take written tests so that I could spell check because I was labeled dyslexic in so I said I need extra time. So I get the spelling right and he goes. Oh I I sink doc. The opposite is true which is his way of saying he throws smart. Need extra time which I liked but one time he just walked by me knows I was writing and he goes when I was a child. They would hit your hand with a ruler. Very hard you would not right like this and I was like. Oh Oh he was not permitted to right left and so in nineteen fifties Germany in Germany. The rate of left handedness. This is nine point eight. Three percents The whole thing is do you feel like one in ten people that you meet are left handed. I don't groups of friends and we talk about it. I guess. Charlie's left handed. I mean people. Are you sound like you're the first person I've been the worst. I hate it. I wanted to be one percent trees a toll I wish it was like point zero one percent. I know you gathered around to watch me write a letter. So families lefty they are all the my two sisters and my mom are lefty. Oh I should be hanging out with them but mostly the your sisters sisters in your mom and I should put on public shows where we right with our left hand people stand here. Love take suggestions like eight. And then we make an a Oh my God wow people would applaud and cheer. Oh Boy Okay Ted Olson I. I don't think he's the most successful at trying cases in the Supreme Court I found a bunch of other people's and then there were some less but he wasn't on any of the it wasn't isn't historical figures in the modern era modern era. But it doesn't mean it's not as incredibly successful. where he he is and he you know he worked for George Bush? I would love to interview him we should he. He is illustrated points. That I just would not have thought of. I don't think the way he does. Yeah it's a very convincing person. Adam just reminder. He's the one that taught us about Equa finality finality our new favorite word. We're we'RE GONNA use it Excessively in twenty twenty we used it a lot one day and then we forgot to use it ever again. But we'll try to bring it back your yeah will end up there Equa. Finality see what you did. We will end up there. So that's a one of our resolutions. I guess in Twenty Twenty Issues Equa finality everyday. Yes with reckless abandon. Yeah all right well had them Gran. Oh We'd love cure their criticism. We love you too much. Aw Yeah hurts our soul. We don't have enough free utilize to love you in the way we want to

Michigan Dr Monica professor Detroit West Bloomfield Bob Sheldon Adam Grant America West Bloomfield high school Harvard Wharton School of business Milford partner TA Dax Shepard US Hungary Orchard Lake
Should You Keep Working From Home Post-Covid?

WSJ Your Money Briefing

08:46 min | 3 months ago

Should You Keep Working From Home Post-Covid?

"This podcast is supported by indeed dot com helping you find quality candidates with indeed in match indeed searches millions of resumes in their database. To help show you. Great candidates instantly receive a free seventy five dollars. Credit to upgrade your job post at indeed dot com slash your money terms and conditions apply. Here's your money briefing for friday. March nineteenth. I'm jr waylon for the wall street journal a year ago. Many companies had no choice but to send workers home amid government ordered lockdowns now as pandemic restrictions ease. Employers are mapping out plans to start bringing people back but what if you're given the option telecommute permanently should you take it. It's not an easy question. You were part of that team there in the office. You're not they. Just start making decisions without you. I mean it's not that they are cutting you out of official meetings but a lot of decisions happened in the halls. A lot of conversation happens informally and they don't schedule a zoom call with you every time they've just popped into somebody else's office and something comes up coming up. Peter cappelli professor of management at the university of pennsylvania's wharton. School of business will discuss key questions. You should be asking before you start. Telecommuting long-term as after the break this podcast is supported by indeed dot com. Helping you find quality candidates with indeed instant match indeed searches through millions of resumes in their database. To help show you. Great candidates instantly receive a free seventy five dollars. Credit to upgrade your job post at indeed dot com slash. Your money terms and conditions apply. What if you were given the opportunity to work remotely on a permanent basis and my cut down on some expenses like commuting but what affects could have on. Say your interaction with your boss or maybe even your chances of being promoted. Let's ask peter cappelli. He's a management professor at the university of pennsylvania's wharton school of business. He's been studying this issue and he joins me now. Peter thanks for being here. Thank you so. Peter for an employee who might choose to work from home. What questions should that person have in. Mind yeah i think those are really important questions. I'd say the first one is. How long do i trust that this will relationship will go on so my employers and some of them now are saying you can work remotely on a long-term basis. Well what is long-term mean ford motor company for example made this announcement that they are going to allow more employees or group to work remotely. Well do i want to move my family from detroit my corporate job there to colorado where we've always wanted to live on the assumption that i can keep my job at ford now. The problem is you know. Corporate jobs don't last all that long. What happens if i move my family out to colorado and then my employer back home decides you know. This wasn't such a great idea. We want everybody to come back and were already moved and settled into a new place. What do i do that. And even the silicon valley the tech companies where people are used to hopping around a lot. And you know they're telling people yeah go work remotely go move where you want to move and then we'll work it out later. You know. well the problem is you move and then the company doesn't want you anymore. Can you find another employer. Who's willing to let you work remotely or to pick up and move back to silicon valley and after the pandemic when a team comes back to the office and there are a couple of individuals who are now working remotely. How would that change the dynamic and the ecology of that group. I think what the research on this show is is that you don't want to be one of those people who is home when the rest of your team is in the office. You know this looks a lot like the experience. We had generations or so ago with ex-pats when companies used to send people far away remotely for a few years to work and what the experts would discover as people forgot about him back at the office. Right so your team of. Let's say four other people. You were part of that team there in the office. You're not they just start making decisions without you. I mean it's not that they are cutting you out of official meetings but a lot of decisions happened in the halls. A lot of conversation happens informally and you know they don't schedule a zoom call with you every time they've just popped into somebody else's office and something comes up right so it's not intentional. But you just find yourself cut out of the communication and how could work from home on a long term basis affects someone's relationship with their cohorts and specifically their supervisor could get in the way of them you know potentially being promoted. There's some pretty good evidence on this that it is harder to get promoted if you are one of those not in the office and the reason is we haven't been very good about performance management in most organizations. Anyway that is being very clear about what we want people to do and measuring. Who's done a good job or not if you are around people all the time and you see them in the office and they're they're late easy to assume they must be doing a good job if you never see them you really can only assess based on the quality of their work and you don't really know always what went into making. That happen how hard they had to work in order to get that outcome or quirky things that happened that got in the way of what seemed to be simple task. So you're at a bit of a disadvantage in trying to persuade your boss. You're really doing a good job. If your boss doesn't see you but i think even more so you're out of the loop in terms of seeing opportunities for advancement that doesn't mean you know. Jobs and promotions might mean seeing an opportunity to really get your face in front of the decision makers or to solve a problem that really needs to be solved that other people jump on first. Because you didn't know about it. So i think it's pretty clear that if you really really want promotions choosing to stay out of the office is not the way to go if someone does choose to work remotely. Why is it important for them to have a discussion about the kinds of that. We doing you know the reason to work remotely for most people is because They don't want to commute. Which is certainly reasonable and they also want to be able to do things when they're not having to be right at their desk. I wanna move out in the country. Because it's pretty and i want to have horses and that kind of stuff and but if it turns out that my employer is investing a lot of money now in spyware what they often call tableware now which is basically watching me all the time online. And if you're not at your desk the spy where no one knows it. Well if you're going to be working from home but you have to sit at your desk the whole time. It kind of defeats the purpose of the flexibility. That you wanted from being home in the first place right so that you have to be a caregiver for example and you've got little kids at home when they need something they need it right then they might need it for half hour and you want to be able to jump off your desk and go over there. But if you've got tattle where which is pointing out that the boss that you're away from your desk for a half hour and the assumption is you're goofing off don't benefit much from being at home you might as well be in the office now. Peter there are a lot of distractions in the office. There's the chatter among your colleagues. The meetings the smell of fish in the office microwave stuff like that. That could be a tough decision for someone. It seems like there are a few things to weigh on both sides of this equation. I think there are. You know we're hearing this now even about School students who were working from home taking classes from home at some of them actually do better because they're not as distracted and they can focus a little more on their work. So you know a lot of it depends on. What is your home situation really like. How easy is it going to be for you to work from home for some people. You know it's a messy situation at home and going to the office is actually a bit of a relief for them right and it depends on whether everybody else is going to be working in the office and you're going to be the only one home that's not a great situation and you know it also depends what you wanna be doing with your time. Do you want to be living someplace. Where know you really want to be able to spend a lot of time away from your desk right. So there's a whole bunch of things to consider in addition to the basic. You know how ambitious am i. Is this job. That i want simply to pay the rent and just do it and get on with my life. Make my focus away from my work if my focus is going to be my work and i'm not going to be in the office. That's probably not the greatest bet. All right that's professor. Peter cappelli from the university of pennsylvania's wharton school of business. Peter thanks for coming on the show thank you. And that's your money briefing. Im jr waylon for the wall street journal.

jr waylon Peter cappelli university of pennsylvania peter cappelli wharton school of business Peter ford motor colorado the wall street journal wharton School of business detroit university of pennsylvania's w
Predicting the Success of New Ideas

Motley Fool Money

02:18 min | 1 year ago

Predicting the Success of New Ideas

"The model money extra. I'm Chris Hill in the workplace classroom or just life in general ruffin confronted with new ideas. So how do we know which ones will actually Work Adam? Grant is a professor at the Wharton School of Business and author of the bestselling book originals. How nonconformist move the world? According to grant a good group to consult is peers. So I think my favorite way to look at this comes from this This study that a former student in my Justin Berg did his now professor at Stanford and he wanted to know. How do you predict the success of new ideas? So he studied circus. Artists like at Cirque du Soleil. He got them to submit videos of their own acts. Really Novel Ones. Like you've never seen before so different ways of juggling and acrobatics and clowns turns out. Everyone hates clowns but he was interested in. Could you predict how successful the videos we're going to be with audiences? Thirteen thousand plus audience members watched the videos. They rate how much they liked them. They share them on social. They can also donate some of their own money to them to see if they really would pay to see the performance and the first group that he looks at is people judging their own acts the artists themselves. They are awful. They're way too positive on their own performances and they fall in love with lots of bad ideas then he looks at middle managers and they are disastrous for the opposite reason there too negative every brand new idea that they see they compared to a prototype of what's been successful in the past and they're like yeah this is GonNa work. They look for all the reasons. That idea is gonNA fail. Not Why is going to succeed? Then there's a third group that's better than both of them which is pierce fellow. Creators Circus performance. Judging each other's acts unlike the artists themselves they've enough distance to say. This is really not a good idea but unlike the managers they're invested in the creative process so. I think we could all do a better job seeking peer feedback. If we're managers one of the things we can do. Is We get ourselves to think more like creators? So Justin did a study where he had people judge ideas and I gave them five minutes to generate ideas of their own and that made them more open to novel possibilities because they experienced them instead of just evaluating them. I'm Chris Hill. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

Justin Berg Chris Hill professor Cirque du Soleil Wharton School of Business Grant ruffin Adam Stanford five minutes
Best of The Program | Guests: Jim DeMint and April Pollock & Shelly Heller | 7/8/20

The Glenn Beck Program

38:01 min | 1 year ago

Best of The Program | Guests: Jim DeMint and April Pollock & Shelly Heller | 7/8/20

"Coming up podcast. We talk to Jason, but`real about what is going on with the Flynn investigation, and there is so much going on here. It's been amazing thing to unravel could actually get the big special from Glenn Tonight. Glenn will reveal the case against General Fund, and how it exposes pretty everything that we've had questions about over the past couple of years. We'll pay for this That's the big thing going on tonight on, please. TV DOT COM Slash Glenn use the Promo Code Fight. The mob get twenty bucks off one of the. A wonderful programs in lineup that includes studios America immediately before that make sure to check out those shows back to back the night also. Hear from Jim Demint who is. He's seeing some issues with his fellow Republicans on the way. They're handling. These things go into that and we talked to. A. Couple, of women who? decided to look at the everything that was going on in the world and use their entrepreneurial skills to solve something in the marketplace. That's really amazing. It's an incredible story. We get into that as well. Make sure to go to blaze TV. Dot Com Slash Glenn fight. Them Opposite Code to Save Your Twenty Bucks and subscribe rate this podcast as well. The danger. I am just stunned by the revelations in the merry trump book. Stunned by this bombshell book. Actually I'm hearing I'm hearing NPR and and and the New York Times report on it. This bombshell book. I can't find the bombshell in it. Maybe maybe there is something but I would think that they would lead with the bombshell first of all trump. Apparently, was a victim of child abuse at the hands of his father. Okay, probably I mean that would make sense to me although the President Says No, he was a loving father. Yeah! Why Because I believe there was something. Because I think my feeling. Is that something stunted his grow something tragic stunted his growth. In you know in his younger years, a a cruel. Abusive or negligent father would would do that could do that, but the anyway that even if the. Doctor and everything, but it's an interesting. That's. I! Know you are I have? Yes so! Which means you can do? Of any, any part of the body. Dr. Lung Cancer I can do it all anyway. So. That that makes him a simple THAC character. If he had if he had suffered abuses from his father, that is a sympathetic character, so there's no bombshell there for me. then neglected by his workaholic father Okay that that doesn't. That doesn't surprise me. She also. Alleges that Donald, trump paid a friend take his SAT's for him in school. In order to intend the University of Pennsylvania for the Wharton School of business will. She was sixteen when he was in college so. I'm not sure that she you know had her. Her sleuthing degree. She offers she offers no evidence. She just says you know The family always said well. The family says a lot of stuff. You know what I mean. My family says a lot of stuff that doesn't make it true. and then. She said. She has no problem calling Donald. Narcisse a narcissist. WHO does. Does I mean. Let's see. He meets all nine criteria as outlined in the diagnostic and. Statistical Manual of mental disorders, but that again we already know this. What is it eighty or ninety percent of CEO's also hit that? They're saying that you know all CEO's are are. You know. Pathological or or sociopaths? Well yeah okay, so he's a big capitalist I could probably see that happening. It's not really a shock to anybody. And then she says this. He's alleged to drink upwards of twelve. Diet, cokes, a day. He sleeps very literal little. Does he suffer from Substance Abuse? A substance induced sleep disorder. Wow, caffeine, anemia caffeine is a substance abuse. He has a horrible diet. He doesn't exercise which may contribute or exacerbate his other possible disorder. It's possible. I love this. In another section of the bombshell book Meert. Mary reveals Donald's eldest sister Marianne now. A federal judge scoffed at his presidential run. What a bombshell Wow. I can't even comprehend why this book would make any difference like John. Bolton was there in the middle of his White House like He. There and I can see how something that John Bolton may have seen would be would make some difference to Americans. Why the hell would we care what his niece thinks about him by the hell? Would we care about that I? Can't even I can't even comprehend why we would care about. No, both of you are are. Conveniently ignoring maybe the biggest revelation of all that judge trough trump berry, who is a devout Catholic he, he doesn't think much. Of President Trump's evangelical friends when she now, how do you feel about his presidency? Wow wait a minute a catholic. Catholic fout Catholic doesn't think much of his evangelical friends. You know what another bombshell in the book of Glenn. Beck! I'll bet you. Some of his evangelical friends don't think much about how his brother or sister. Sister. Sister whatever sisters Catholic, friends? To really. Shell show. To really think that way I, guess maybe they do, but it's still like again. We'll who cares like shares the big issue with trump. When he was when when when he was I talking about running, and he mentioned his sister as a Supreme Court justice are issue with that was. She's very liberal. Right so why? Of course, he doesn't like his conservative Jellicoe Friends of course, she doesn't. Right The money, grand right I mean like like she has inside information. She's wanting to exploit that in the middle of an election to grab a bunch of. because she doesn't like him and they haven't had gotten along a long long time. This is just pointing. Along. They haven't gotten along because she blames Donald Trump on changing her point of view about her dad and she said something. Nasty Tour Dad, which then she attributes to him, really getting sick and giving up on life, isn't this, isn't her dad? The alcoholic brother Yes fred I think. For Juniors and I think Donald. Trump has while she says that he has no compassion and no empathy. I think I've seen him cry about his brother, which was shocking to me. I mean he feels deeply about his his brother, so there's clearly something there it. This is her attacking Donald Trump because and she says it. I said something to my dad that I think led to his downfall. Blah, blah, blah, but I was influenced by Donald trump my uncle, he said this and this and this and I went to. My Dad said you know what I think. He's right and then that led to his downfall. Well that just sounds like you feel bad for saying something you said Your Dad and you can't take responsibility for it. Yeah sounds like it. There are so many revelations in this book, though that it's hard to cover them all apparently is it? It is is it's really hard because apparently at one time when she was wearing a bikini and he was around her when she was nineteen years old he said to her. Mary you are stacked. Wow, can you you even imagine? Would have said something like that. I kinda can. Decay Lace Donald Trump. That's exactly what he say. Things that are seemingly odd about his daughters shocked about it, but. What value this have none to American zero zero. In a euro, it's just like it's just blatant money. Grab here and the fact that the media is trying to run with it as a as. A like there's at least value in an insider inside of the administration who might have actual information about something that affects Americans. This is it's impossible. She's no nothing that she can say would be at all interesting to anyone unless you are like running an anti Donald. Trump, blog like there's just no, there's no relevance. Can, I can I. Can I ask for your help so I don't end up hating people 'cause I don't WanNa hate, but I'm having a hard time. Not Hating hating some people. No I just hate when no, I dislike what they're doing right? Yes, George, Bush and this Lincoln project is pissing me off. These guys. They don't say anything about. Barack Obama and the fundamental transformation of America, we are fundamentally being transformed right now and they're coming out against Donald Trump. Are you so next I mean. We're your priorities man? You're not GONNA country laugh. Did you say the Bush and the Lincoln Project or are they? I didn't even know they were tied together. They have seen some of those ads, but. I think Bush would if Bush isn't involved in the Lincoln Project which I think he is, but if he's not involved in the Lincoln project, all of his buddies are and he's involved. Behind the scenes with all of this anti-trump stuff, all of the all of the Bush people. Involved in this and many of them have already said that they're not planning to vote for trump. They're going to vote for Biden. Which is despicable? Come on now, seriously sanity seriously at this juncture. This serious. You'RE GONNA. You're considering even voting for that guy. Come on, you're not a Republican then. You've never been a republican if that's the case. No you, you've been a deep states guy. We said that we didn't want to believe about George. Bush I think is true. I mean there is a coup going on against the Constitution forget about trump. Forget about him. There is a coup against the constitution and against America herself, and it is directed by many of the people that are involved at very high levels of the Democratic Party. What are you talking about you? Really Donald Trump is more of a threat to the country. Then black lives matter the all of the George Soros operations, all of the things that are happening with the media. Donald trump is a bigger threat. I don't get it. Is Bad. It's bad. Have you guys. Do you believe go no go ahead, have you have you seen? Have you seen the rapper? His name is lured Jomar, talking about I can say no. You could say hey, you didn't have. All of his I, know you have every CD, he's ever put out. My Gosh. But I know you love Mar. You just haven't heard his latest thing on belt. Black lives near the guy actually says he's being interviewed, and he somewhere along the way says to the interviewer I'm not a fan of black lives, matter and the interviewer is stunned. Any says why not because it's not our movement. It's George Soros and his effing. Boyce gave us that movement amazing through. Yeah, it's a great interview, if you. If you want to take true, yeah, it is true I do want to take a peek at that. Also. Have you heard? Have you seen Hamilton? I tried to watch it. We got through about four and a half minutes. I think before thought too much singing I was thinking really good. Yeah, I was thinking is really good. We're coming up. We had a long conversation Patna yesterday trying to think of anything that we could come up with that. I'd WANNA watch less. sixers where it got to I couldn't. Tell you. I will tell you. It took me a while to get into it. 'cause wraps not my thing. That comes as a shock to everybody. Listening wraps not my thing. And I just assumed that it would be loaded with anti American stuff. Okay, yeah, and there were a couple of lines a couple of lines, but not really I mean they make George Washington. Look really good they make. The founders look good Hamilton looks good. Which I disagree with, but Hamilton looks good. Now black lives matter, and and all of these social justice. Warriors are trying to get it banned on Disney right. And I think taken off Broadway as well. I don't think the Disney things enough for I mean I. Think they want go on Ono. It's not it's not. It's hard. Tell you. Well! They're successful in so many things. One is folding with Disney Hires Colin Kaepernick. Yeah to do documentaries for them I. Mean you don't think they'd bail on this I. You got to understand what I'm saying. It's it's it's. It's bad. However, it's also hard not to laugh at it when when liberals ether own I mean it's true. It's like this is them. This is their cherish piece of art of the past decade. Random is agreeing with the criticism. UNREAL, hold my. GRIEG was. The Best of the Glenn Beck Program. Hey It's Glen and listening to the Glenn Beck Program. If you like what you're hearing on this show, make sure you check out Pat. Gray unleashed its available. Wherever you download your favorite podcasts Jim. DEMENT is joining us now. Chairman of Conservative Party Partnership Institute. And author of saving America from socialism, former US congressman and or senator and and really. Truly one of the guys that was really one of the leading voices during the tea party movement. Welcome Jim Demint. How are you, sir? Hey Glen. It's been too long. Thanks for all you're doing the save our country, and and and to keep the ideas that work here in America out in front of folks, so hope to see you soon so. Jim. Let me ask you. Where where are your colleagues? In the Senate and the house? Standing up against all that is going on this is this is the most amazing well coordinated well-financed, easily trackable. Attempted coup against our nation that I have ever seen. Where are your former colleagues? I don't know. Glen and I'm very disappointed I mean I've been critical of Republicans before for not standing up. You mentioned the tea party. For the most part. The Republican Party just gave a big stiff arm to all those Americans, who just wanted responsible government and the government not invading their lives, but I mean they're Republicans around the country. A lot of some of the Republican governors are really pushing back understanding standing strong, but they're getting so much grief and I think that's why. Republicans in the House and the Senate are just hiding under their desks is because. They they don't feel like anybody's got their back, but they do their everybody. I'm talking to around the country. Saying what you're saying Glenn is why are Republicans standing up? Why aren't they getting? Trump's back when he's trying to push back against the left agenda as you said is very clearly trackable back to the big money and the socialist in our country, who really want to create chaos, so it will drive people into the arms of government. Jim Any doubt in your mind of the things that we talked about back in two thousand, eight, nine, the fundamental transformation, the Marxist revolutionary impact that all of this is happening right now. There's no question and that's why there's an urgency in in my mind and heart to talk about saving America. I've been warning about a you've been warning about it for over ten years and now. If you WanNa see what socialism looks like, just look look what's happening. under the guise this corona virus where the government is telling us what businesses can be open if we can go to church, who we who can meet with whether you can go to school and Americans have taken this largely. I think out of just. Being citizens and they they've kind of intimidated us in into being responsible, but I think more and more people are starting to see through it that this is just being used as a political ploy and. To try to take down trump and take down our way of life, so it's time for us to stand up. I think we're GONNA. See More Republicans who stand up I. Know some of them are in Washington but the the cameras don't find them. End Win A. Or somebody or Jim Jordan pushes back there generally in the media, so we've just got to figure out ways to make more noise, and you're one of the few people who actually does the research to track it back to show Americans. There's no mystery here. This is not spontaneous lighting. This is something that's been planned and coordinated, and they just wait for some kind of trigger to come after US and as I point out in in saving America from socialism is all these crisis or used by the tyrants by the socialist by the big government people to try to drive Americans into the arms of a bigger and bigger government. I mean it's amazing. Can you imagine Jim if the tea party? Have had a quarter of the support. That black lives matter and these radical mtpa even has a quarter of that support. What could've happened? We had the media the government everybody even the GOP against us, tearing US apart, and we still made an impact. I can't even the impact on what is happening with just our statues. With with the way everyone is reacting right now is going to last possibly forever. It is going to change the nation. Well When as you know that is is part of the history of of Marxist of socialist of tyrants to to destroy history, and and our school certainly haven't taught it now. People are growing up. Thinking America is evil and racist and then I can tell you. I've lived a long time, but there is no intentional. Systematic racism wept in America except in the Democrat Party that they use a strategy to get themselves elected, but it and we want to solve our problems. We we. We've got to stop blaming it on things that aren't the real cause of our problems, so that's what I'm trying to do now with his. His book in other ways and speaking. I know this what you're doing is if people don't understand how America works, and why it's so wonderful, and if they don't understand the threats that are all around us, then then you're not going to stand up and fight just going to go like sheep to the slaughter like we see some of our Republicans doing in Washington now, but I'm just trying to issue another wakeup. Call you issue a wake up call every day, but Hopefully our voices will combine with a lot of others. WE'LL GET AMERICANS to stand up as they always have to fight for their. Way Of line. So if they haven't stood up yet. Take it. It frightens me. What is it GonNa? Take to get people to stand up. What is the solution? What do you? How do you stand up Jim what what? What is the target? Because it's everywhere, it's everywhere. It is as one of the things I write about when if you think it's going to take a majority to change things, we'll never going to act, it's. Every individual can make a difference we we all have to go out whether it's at work or school, or whatever and began to speak up. The A lot of us are are intimidated I mean I. See it all around. People want to say this is crazy. I mean they're looking at things that are absurd and they're afraid to say. It's absurd because they're gonNA. Get pounded either. Either directly or through social media, but people have to have courage. We generally get the government we deserve, and so we've got to stir up. People and they've got to realize that we've gotTA. Stop looking to Washington, there are so many solutions education choice, other things that are happening at the state level that we have to just keep pushing There's more chance of doing something good. Good at the state level the right now than in wash them, but so but we can't give up. That's a whole last part of the book is plan. We've gotTA. Understand that we were republic were not a national democracy We've got to keep power as much as can at the state level. We've got to get states to push back against the federal government. We're seeing A. A little little of that with the code thing, and but now we get a clear choice. Florida handles at one way and New York another, and you can see which philosophies work, but but still give up Glen I think America needs cheerleaders as well as philosophers, but I I believe that we're gonNA. Come out better even though I know. We're sitting on a tipping point. Here as well as a powder keg but you know trump in in his own way has has been very good for America just kinda kicking down the doors and Washington going after the swamp. You know calling things for what they really are, and they're trying to take him down and So this election is is. Even, more important than the last one, and we've just got to sound the alarm that now's the time for America to stand up. What should trump and the Senate be doing right now? In the house, I mean. We are a we are a nation or people that believes in fairness. We believe injustice, but we also believe in law and order and when you have so many mayors and so many governors just hanging their own people. What should he do because they'll paint him? As a monster, he goes in and does anything, but he's not GonNa win if he doesn't seem like he is standing up to this and he is is is weak. Yeah! He's been a little off of his game just because he deferred to doctors on this corona virus. Even though I think he's got the right instincts and he started pushing back this week. He said we gotta get back to school And his some of his doctors had said no but. He, he does get pounded every time he does anything. Even his speech at Mount Rushmore, which was really a great speech was just completely verified in the media. So it's it's you know it's hard for me to say what he can do, but he does have a platform that a lot of the rest of stuff I don't have and I know he's got some people around him at a really good like Mark Meadows now and some others, and that's what we're trying to do is just come around these folks and just get trump to speak out this to tell the truth, because people are whispering now, but they long for somebody to get up and tell the truth. They do they do The name of the Book Is Saving America from Socialism. Saving America from socialism, Jim Demand A. He's been a very strong voice for a very long time. Jim Just a personal question. Have you had a hard time. With the realization. That you right. Jim. Yeah Yeah with the realization of why it's the last part of that you're. That you're right. I've had a hard time. I didn't want to be right and it's. It's when it's happening now I'm I'm looking at it and I'm like. No no no I I don't know I. GotTa be wrong. I mean no, we can't be happening. Are you having a hard time? Looking. Cheese. I am Glenn. Because it's so illogical. It's so absurd. I mean it's. It's if people only knew a little bit they they would not sit still for a minute for some of the things that happen I mean I can't believe people elect. Like governor Cuomo, in New York I mean people in New York, not stupid, but they keep electing people that are. Destroying their cities all around the country, so yeah, no, I'm upset. It's hard for me to to accept things that are completely illogical. That's why it was hard for me to serve in the House and the Senate. but We just have to We have to tell the truth. People are just desperate and We're to book right now. That just says they're lying to you whether it's climate, change or America's racist or whatever I just WanNa. Put it all out there and just go out into thin. What is the real truth and? How many people will listen But I gotTa tell you one of the first when the Charles Board. Way Back in your Fox days when when you were telling us things that were happening in the financing and follow the money that no one seems to want to listen to. Because it's it's, it's so crazy. It couldn't be true, but unfortunately it is, but we can't give up. America has always done things that were impossible like beat the British, and that's the spirit we're calling right now is we've got jump? He'll stand up and fight anybody, but he needs a few people to walk out there with. Yeah I agree. Thank you so much, Jim, I appreciate it. Jim dement name of the book is Saving America from Socialism. It came out yesterday. Always a pleasure to have you on. This is the best of the Blend Beck Program. I WANNA. Tell you about. Two other people that I met just recently and I've never ever done this before. But I was. On boarding new clients. And it's. It's Tampa. Toss and it's a thing that you put on your your kid's forehead. and. You can take your your infant child's temperature. Really really easy, and it's it's it's a it's a really good product. And so I was talking to him, but I just fell in love with the two women who are just these. Two moms that are entrepreneurs from Ohio. That sought opportunity to do something because they were moms with kids, and they knew about taking temperatures, and what a pain in the neck it is! And they. Started this company, and now with co did they have just exploded and they're doing something really really good. For the rest of the nation and I. Just I really liked them so I ask them to join me on skype. We have them it's. April, Pollick and Shelly Hiller. How are you guys? You. I love the fact that you're just in your car. The two of you. So tell me about how. What you guys are doing and why you got involved in this. We started. In Twenty fifteen, we had a an idea for a paper forehead thermometer that came about honestly because a local manufacturer Garin date and had millions of thermometer strips they were trying to. Get rid of they previously sold them to hospitals and we could just. Kyle I said. Why didn't you retail them for moms? That would be perfect to thrown at diaper bag and they so that's a great idea you do it. We don't want to and. Look how it started. started. from a women owned business event and it just. We just went with it. You know how sometimes you get ideas, and you think I. Don't WanNa really do that are. We did it. So now we're here. We've. Thirteen, hundred percent since March. That is I. Don't know how you have done that. But you. You now have hospitals that are clamoring for these because they don't. You can't trust some of the things coming out of China. You guys were telling me that there was. A problem with one hospital. You don't have to get into the details, but the problem with hospital that. got a bunch of thermometers from China and they were defective. We. Are are some would be sick. Is should be used for people that are entering the hospital. Are so they were doing some testing for letting people into the emergency room, and into the hospital and things like that and. They kept going through a million batteries or read? Three different taught three different ways. On the same person in you know, it got to be more of a hassle than not so they called us in. You know were in. In line to hopefully be. Hired by them to provide our thermometers to them. Because it's so easy, just put him on your forehead and they'll read continuously for forty eight hours. So I have to tell you, I. When when you guys first? When you guys I talked to me about coming on the show. I went to my wife and my daughter, who has two young children? And they knew of your products and they were like. Are you kidding me? It is the easiest. It is the best and being a dad I didn't I couldn't relate to it, but boy. They just love your product. And what you're talking about now is. Not just something for your child's forehead, but for businesses we're getting ready to open up our business in Texas and have everybody come back in. and. How do you check everybody's temperature? And like you said some of these forehead, thermometers will give you three different readings. You'll just you'll hit it, and then you hit it again. Hit it again in his three different readings. Did, a study, and showed that yours is the most consistent out of all of the readings and and you can come in instead of having somebody do it. You just peel one of these off and stick it on your forehead. And stay there. We and We. have. We have to pivot because a lot of manufacturers were wanting. More bulk quantities, and so we have we made a roll of three thousand and a roll of five thousand in a dispenser that you could just sit in the at the front of your entrance of your building. Peel them off and put on your head. Check People's temperature, I mean. We do at here at. Our Day jobs are being April has a day job and I have a job. And this was just Kinda got to be a side hustle, but then chart out something else, but now we've. been able to sell these two major corporations to automotives to on the service, industry and things that nature has been pretty successful so far and consistency. Yes, absolutely are tests that we did was shoot we did eight to ten different kinds of stuff, monitors and Ours came up the most consistent, so we're supposed to get that data today actually to see how we did you now. And You have some major corporations that have now become. Clients that they are doing these tests you. Can you talk about those? Absolutely, so in the in that when. I started in March had large corporations such as GM Ford. Huntington Bank homedepot CINTOS. Grainger Ranger Grainger Catalog. We saw two CDC Border Patrol and the FDA. So all of those customers wanted to bulk offering, so we had hit it in March and offer. An Vase thermometer to help me that mylar demand, which is what helped us come up with our head thermometer dispenser role of the three thousand and five thousand. Now that we have that were pulling back on the mylar bit. Mylar does not have adhesive. So, we have so I mean we saw millions, and in March and April it expel. I am just so happy that it is. It's two MOMS to business women in Ohio that are changing the way we're taking our temperature and helping so many big corporations and small companies like mine. Stay healthy, thank you guys so much. Thank you. Disable more thing. Oh, yes, we! We have disabilities. Who at Ud Assembly for all of our. Products, and then also we are going to be giving a percentage of our Glenn Beck Sales Chew. A A to a facility called bridges pass which takes independent. Babies and tries to keep them with their families, so we're. We're behind that and hoping that. People. Do that. Donate thank you guys. It's Tampa toss. This has not been a commercials and Toss Dot Com. You can find out more about it. We'll talk again. Thank you, thank you ladies for being on.

America Donald Trump President Trump Glenn Jim dement Jim Demint Jim Bush Senate US Tampa Hamilton Glen Washington New York Times NPR Ohio George Wharton School of business
Drugmakers face opioid trial after pandemic delays

Marketplace Morning Report with David Brancaccio

08:35 min | Last month

Drugmakers face opioid trial after pandemic delays

"This marketplace podcast is supported by out systems. The application platform that enables every company to innovate through software out. Systems accelerates the development of business critical cloud applications build the difference without systems for more information visit out systems dot com slash action this marketplace podcast is supported by wise. The smartest way to move money around the world playing hide and seek is fun but not when it comes to exchange rates with the wise account. You'll always see the real exchange rate when you send spend and receive money between eighty countries. Try wise for free at wise dot com slash marketplace. There's fifty billion dollars in play with the spread of addictive painkillers on trial today. I'm david brancaccio. The legal push for redress on the opioid epidemic goes beyond purdue pharma maker of oxycontin today in california trial set to begin focused on four other drugmakers in the stakes are very high. Marketplace's nova sophos following this david. Four local governments here in california are asking for fifty billion dollars in compensatory and punitive damages claiming the companies involved are that they're suing deceptively marketed. Narcotic painkillers which have proven to be highly addictive for many people now on the defense side pharmaceutical companies are johnson and johnson and endo international also allergen which is a unit of illinois-based abbvie and teva pharmaceuticals in israeli firm. The drugmakers deny wrongdoing and say they appropriately marketed their drugs and they point out that those drugs were fda approved now. The major verdict already was one at a oklahoma. How important is this new. Trial and in the oklahoma case. Johnson and johnson is appealing that verdict. But yes this california trial is important. It has the distinction of being the first opioid trial since the pandemic hit. And that's key because he could set the course for multi state settlements now state attorneys general and drugmakers have been negotiating toward settlements but the pandemic has had an effect there too. It's slow those talks and there are two other trial set for later this year. depending on how all these go they could help set the contours of deal potentially resembling resembling that of the tobacco companies. Which of course agreed to that big settlement in the nineties right. No thank you. Stocks the e. x. index and amsterdam is little changed at the moment here dow and s&p futures are down about two percent each the benchmark tenure interest-rate starts the week at one point five seven percent lower than a week ago now a racism bias and mitigating disparities in economic opportunity with organizations under pressure to go beyond talking about diversity but addressing it in their workforces. Some new technology can help firms. Better monitor and analyze their progress toward inclusivity marketplace's jasmine guard reports. Scott page from the university of michigan specializes in management. He remembers working with a company where women were turning down jobs involving relocation and it was hurting their chances of getting promoted. He's says this is an example of how data about employees can help explain a diversity problem and you can kind of explain away in individual case but when you're looking at one hundred cases two hundred cases thousand cases you can no longer explain that away so what you can do is you can look for patterns. In the data the pattern he found was relocations. Were being offered in the middle of the school year. Women were mostly refusing to fix the problem. The company began offering more flexible. Relocation timelines a growing number of businesses are looking into their own implicit bias which experts say is a great step but those biases are implicit so by nature. You often don't even realize you have them. Professor karen low from the wharton school of business. Human beings make snap decisions based on the data. They've taken in from the world around them and that data is biased. And so you need to figure out how to put your decision makers into a position where they can actually be. Objective entered data collection. Who got recruited and why who got promoted and why and left and how come and some companies are seeing an opportunity payroll giant. Adp is now offering software to measure diversity equity and inclusion adp senior vice president. Jack berkowitz with says it's not just about a headcount of who the employees are are people being hired great. but are they actually advancing up management levels. Still data alone will not fix a company's diversity. Problem brian is with the kellogg school of management. You know some of what we're talking about now. And the real benefits of these technologies were also some of the things that were touted about the benefits of social media. And so you have to be very vigilant with these technologies. I think to make sure that they all used in reasonable ways. And that's a responsibility that organizations to pay a lot of attention to he says data is important but what a company decides to do with it. That's where the real challenge is and where change can happen. I'm jasmine garsten for marketplace thousand this marketplace podcast is supported by personal capital. Who can help you take control of your finances no matter where you are. Download the personal capital app or start today at personal capital dot com to get free professional grade financial tools including a retirement. Planner and fi analyzer. Want to talk. Personal capital has registered advisers by phone or online for qualified users personal capital. There's no place like financial confidence keeping middle seats on airplanes open. Ken significantly reduce the risk of corona virus transmission according to a new study from the centers for disease control but here in april twenty twenty one most major domestic airlines or putting people in all the seats. So mr sneezy next to you. Let's hope it's just a little hay fever his head we'll be eight inches from yours for five hours. Forty seven minutes across the country but blocking middle seats cost airlines money. Marketplace's samantha fields reports. We've all known for a while. Now that wearing masks and social distancing or two of the best ways to prevent covid from spreading and it turns out on airplanes in have a significant protective effect. James bennett a research engineer. At the cdc who worked on the study he says how much difference it makes airlines blocking middle. Seats ferries with the low end. We were looking at a twenty three percent reduction in exposure just from the fact of not being season right next to other passenger they happen to be infectious and at the high end. A fifty seven percent reduction exposure but at this point in the pandemic aviation analyst. Richard w says for the airlines. I don't imagine this is gonna make a whole heck of a lot of difference. The airlines have been really diligent at enforcing mandatory mask policies. It's been a very effective tool and has vaccination rates rise. He says more and more people are feeling comfortable booking flights. I'm samantha fields for marketplace. I'm david brancaccio. You're listening to the marketplace morning report from apm american public media. Hey al ameri mcrae's host of the marketplace podcast. This is uncomfortable. Studies show that people who are considered attractive are more likely to earn more money and that includes how you present yourself from wearing makeup. Nice close to whether or not you have visible body hair. Every time spent money. I was like. Am i really doing this for myself. Do i want to remove my body here. And i i knew in my heart. I didn't want to late. didn't want to. I just knew that. I had to this week. On the show phenomenon known as the grooming gap new episode of this is uncomfortable. Drops thursday moreover. You get your podcasts.

david brancaccio johnson endo international abbvie teva pharmaceuticals california Scott page oklahoma karen low wharton school of business Adp Jack berkowitz oxycontin pharma jasmine garsten samantha fields fda
Roger Farah

The Smoking Tire

1:23:30 hr | 4 d ago

Roger Farah

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My old man is finally here You know covid. Vaccinations have made travel. Nice and safe again. And he has in the studio and we're going to do something. I've never really done which is basically go through his entire career in one sitting He has done a lot of fucking crazy. Shit as we will See in this Ninety minutes of podcasting it's It's my father. Roger farah on the smoke entire podcast professional broadcaster on this side of the table amateur. This is what it is. This is the whole gig okay. It's it's fun works so all right. So hey everybody this is my dad. This is roger. Roger has a fifty year career in high fashion retail at goes back to the seventies. And you know as i grew up Obviously i got to enjoy a lot of the spoils of that hard work. In that success. We had a. We had a nice home. We had nice things. We traveled to nice places. I didn't. I didn't see you as much as i wanted to. But that's okay because you're a great dad and we had a we have a great relationship is as adults But we never stopped. I always as you went through jobs and stuff just sort of took for granted like that's that's where you are and then we never really analyzed it in detail except until very recently where we've talked about what was going on at work as i understood it a little better but i read that that profile that The boys were talking about with you. And bernard arnault and they summarized your career and they reminded me that you were. Ceo saks fifth avenue at thirty three years old. That's not exactly true. I was the ceo of riches in atlanta at thirty three. Oh okay missed. They misquoted where i was working. My first twelve years was at saks. Fifth avenue but i left to go be the ceo. Riches in atlanta thirty-three another department store chain arts like the bloomingdale's of atlanta but what what always im- impressed me and from the from the very beginning was your one of the things i thought i mean that that really put you in such an advantage over everybody else was your ability to do four function speed math in your head. Did you always have that. Did you intentionally teach yourself that. Or is that a gift. Because i know all your friends from high school and you guys were the jocks. You weren't a nerd. Your friends where all six three and played basketball and soccer and all not all but when you talk about high school you talk about sports not class. So where did your four function speed math skill. Come from well. It was not learned in a book for sure I learned functional math very early in my business career where i was a trainee and then an assistant level to a vice president at saks. Fifth avenue at the time and he had me do the budgets and all the analytics for every department in the company. And i was doing math in my head all day long to accelerate how long it took me so i could then spend time on the things but i was saying this act this morning. It got to a point where it was almost like the beautiful mind where russell crowe would look at a wall. Numbers and certain numbers would turn bright. Yeah i mean. I've never seen anybody about bradsheet sheet. Or you know when i when i was talking about starting my own businesses and i call you and you calculate interest rates in real time and you calculate payments in real time and you talk taxes in real time. I've never really seen anybody else that can do that. Well i i learned quickly how to do math in my head and also what numbers were important. So if i looked at a spreadsheet or an annual report or i looked at a presentation somebody was making to me or a quarterly report. I could very quickly you know. Get through fifty sixty pages and find the two numbers that were really important and on the reverse side. I could also find the one or two mistakes. They instantly sort of pop off the page and remember someone you told me. The story of someone gave you the wrong packet at some meeting. They gave you their packet instead of your packet and it said like don't fuck with roger can do crazy math or something yeah. This guy was doing a presentation. He was an architect and there was a dozen of us around table. Probably six of his people six of mine and he passes out his books for the presentation. And i open mind. And it's full of notes. And i realize he had given me his copy and i saw the look of panic on his face and i read in the note. Don't play with numbers. Rogers early good with numbers. And i'm watching the blood brain. You know probably a little mean. But i waited about ten or fifteen seconds and i said you know maybe i think i've got your book here and you may want it back. And he finally started a breathe again. But i go. I look back and you know i went to a good school high school. I went to a good college. You know we went to the university of pennsylvania. Which i'm still certain i didn't deserve to go there i'm concerned. I'm certain that there were shenanigans. That fucking school. I was fine once i was there. But you know like everybody is. But i was. I could swear there was some shenanigans happening there but my art portfolio is really good enough yet but I didn't no one ever said you know. By the way here's a skill that will get you so far ahead in your life and there should be a class on it or something instead. It's like calculus. What what are we doing with that. Why is this not something that is so useful. Hundred percent true if people would learn how to use math in their life in their business. Addition subtraction division just basic concepts calculus which you struggle to get through everybody struggles to get through and then never use it again. Unless you're an engineer. Percent of the population uses use math. It's intimidating to people they are. Yeah immediately defensive. You should see this. They're on their heels with a car salesman with. I mean just thinks they can do numbers because they're in their house. But oh my god. I've seen you steamroll people. Well and what happens is people have now gotten used to pulling out a calculator for what five percent of one hundred and you know quite frankly. It's going to be able to do that in your head. But i was with at a bank meeting with alexis you sister and we were talking to a rap and he starts pulling out his calculator. Hasn't are you telling me you can't do five percent of one hundred and your head and almost suddenly started turn green and then the next number comes along and i said you can't do that in your head and now he's honest defensive so you're look business associations can turn on those kind of advantages so part of it was just natural part of it was you know learned I'm not sure. I'm as good today as i was in my prime but it's an effective tool now. I don't have your mind on other subjects. You use your memory and your instant recall and your ability to integrate thoughts as a weapon. i'm not as good at that but i was good at math. Yeah i think math makes you more. Money is probably the right strategy. And i chose the artists rude or whatever. You wanna call that so when when you you know. We all took similar math classes in grade school and high school and we learn percentages. And things like that. But when you're taking those classes did you understand how valuable valuable it would be. Always saying you never those classes. I took all the basic math classes. And i went to the wharton school of business which has a heavy component of you majoring econ right. I measured major income. And you know you took finance one into accounting you know courses you took you know all of the basic requirements of business school which you know have math woven through it. But it wasn't until. I got out of school and i realized how useful it was and how being able to do it in my head in a conversation and use it effectively to gain an advantage that i began to leverage that into a life skill And when the kids were little believe it or not We used to have fun because we would play checkbook. They in the back seat and we would play checkbook in the car with okay. You have your ten dollars in your checkbook and you put twenty and then you have to pay a seven dollar check out. What do you have left. And you know and and i was trying to teach them how to do it in their head without pencil and paper or you know at the time you know any kind of electronic device but it was really when i got into business that i that numbers weed their way through almost every you know business situation that i began to realize being able to do it in my head and hold it in my head or using it in articulating it at a different time while talking about some other shays is an advantage having a conversation with you and doing an interest rate in his head at the same time. And you won't know he's doing it. Yeah and so. It's an advantage you use it. Use whatever skills talents you have and you know you sort of work around what you're not good at And you try to minimize that as as a reality of getting to know yourself and what you can do and the other thing that i did Early on that has served me well. Is i really understand where i'm trying to go. And then i worked back to the present and so whether it's a business strategy widow. I wanna be in ten years. And how do i bring that back to an action plan now. Or what do. I want this conversation to go either. An interview or a negotiation. And how do i move my way towards that. And how do i ask somebody questions that the follow up question they're going to ask me is really the one i want And so when. I was running public companies and having to deal with wall street and shareholders and analysts. One of the things i did well. And you know matt as you know the this ability to do it live on camera i take. I could be managing a conversation like chess. Where two or three steps ahead. And i want to know that question to come at me and i've got a set it up so they asked me but i take on a journey a little bit until i get to the point with air twister pass on the track like three corners ahead. Write chess crazy and so whether you do it for thirty years it's crazy. Is town get home late at night. He didn't listen. I didn't get away with anything. I didn't get away with shit. Well when my business friends are watching this they start playing jaws music and their head because they can see it coming now. After all these years. I can see it coming to. I know i know how it's gonna work but that's actually when you're talking about. I used to hear kind of little snippets of the real differences between running up a big public company and running a private company. And how of your time had to be spent justifying your own actions to various people. What is you know what is the real takeaway from that from someone who really would excel at a public company versus would excel at a smaller private company. Maybe well having run a variety of public companies and or chaired the boards. I would say a third of my time. Think about this a third of my time and you work hours and i worked. Endless hours was invested in communicating and selling to either a board of directors or other senior management or to shareholders or perspective shareholders or media selling your strategy. And what you have to be able to do that. Sounds thankless is well. It's exhausting because i'd rather spend that time on running the business. Yeah in a private company. Maybe you have bankers. Maybe have a partner. But it's a much more limited time investment to explain what you're doing here. You have to explain it over and over and over again and you gotta do it. In a high level of detail with a shareholder who's an owner or an analyst who maybe want them to buy your stock and you have to be able to great it down to the lowest level employees. How do i distill the strategy for somebody who's only been in the company a year or two that they can understand it so you have to scale up or scale it down. You have to add statistics and anecdotes for one audience that you want to leave out for another audience. And it's a huge amount of time. I would probably spend Three hundred appointments a year with shareholders individual one on one hour hour and a half sessions any shareholder have the right to like book an appointment with the ceo or shareholders. Expect to see the ceo smaller or perspective. Probably start with the chief financial officer but in the end if they say they wanna see the ceo you know. Obviously it's my choice. But you know you you try to accommodate it. But i couldn't handle somebody running in my office that say. Gee it's tuesday at ten fidelity's showed up. Can you see them. But but on a program basis it was a lot of time and energy. That's crazy. I mean what is the. What is the real. You know to go from okay. I i work at a company to now. Maybe i'm going to start or run a company. That's going to have five employees. Now you know five hundred two now. Fifty thousand what is what is the real differences between that micro and macro level management skills. You know when you're starting or you're an entrepreneur. You have a small head count. You have to personally do a lot more. You have to roll up your sleeves whether it's make the coffee in the morning or actually execute on all the strategies and tactics the higher you get whether you're vice president a senior vice president. Ceo whether you're running a domestic company or a global company. You've got to get things done through people so you're really building a team. You're educating and training that team and that team has got to be us puzzles for your message on a global basis. When i was running footlocker we had one hundred fifty thousand employees worldwide and we had two hundred and fifty thousand retirees talking to the retirees whose pensions dependent on. Your success is different than talking to the one hundred and fifty thousand people running your your business. So identifying hiring training top talent is a much higher priority. When you're smaller you're rolling up your sleeves and sort of doing the work was. That's how is that how you end up with the same team of five guys that went with you to every single job. You had start well if you if you can bring in people that you've trained than you know what they're capable of and they can hit the ground running it does help and and you know you join a new company a parachute in from the outside and you don't know anybody you gotta learn their strengths and weaknesses. But i always believed investing and training people matt so that my line in the was if i've trained properly eighty percent of the time given the same set of facts you and i will come to the same decision twenty percent of the time. We won't now. You could be right or i could be right. But as long as eighty percent of the time we're coming to the same conclusion. I'm comfortable letting you go. And the twenty percent as long as it's not going to drive the car into a ditch or drive the company into a whole. I'll say try your way. Maybe you're right now if i'm right. No harm no foul. We move on but if note in the file that well you only get so many of those before it's time to move on. Yeah and then you say what. Are you planning to do starting tomorrow with the rest of your life. Because this isn't working so training people developing people. And even when i got to be. Ceo's i would hold training classes for the people one notch below my direct reports. Because i figured. I was training my direct reports on a daily basis but i wanted to get it the next layer and there's not a telephone games that my message was being filtered so i would directly train one notch below my direct reports in order to make sure they were getting. Would you then in my train one right below them so you would skip train right. Hallway down the pyramid. That's very smart to ensure the consistent message that's very and then i would have every two weeks breakfast with roger where i would have a cross section of employees that i would engage with for an hour over breakfast and you know could be. Somebody just joined. The company could be a different every time different every time and they could ask questions and i would try to make sure they're hearing directly from a you know what the message was. What about like companies. Where for a time seemed like nineteen ninety five to to the first few years at ralph lauren. Two thousand five that your main skill was really fixing companies that were in deep trouble. Yeah well what you have to understand about your skill set is. What are the tools in your toolbox. What am i good at. What is not so good at. And like i could look at a page numbers and identify the numbers that mattered. And or the ones that were mistakes Going into a company assessing what. They're good at what the problems are. What was what was needed urgently. And what could be put on a back-burner. I acquired skills to do that. So turning something around dramatically enhancing performance. I got very good at identifying very quickly. What were the key issues. That had be resolved. What if the company has all dead weight. And you've been there months and it's time to cut you know. Hundreds thousands tens. That's very difficult situation. And when i went to the forerunner of footlocker which was woolworth. The year i joined they had just lost nine hundred million dollars a year. Some you guys out there might remember woolworth the five and dime and that it's not in existence anymore and you're welcome. Yeah you're a big roj. Well worth packing it. Peaked in the nineteen sixties when it had five thousand stores when i got to it at had hundred stores so they had already close the large number but the hundred stores were losing a billion dollars a year so Quickly we had to decide if we could fix it or whether it was better to close it and my first ever quote job if you could call it. That was it a woolworths in white plains. And i was stocking shelves probably fifteen or something and the you know what i got from that job life life skill. I can walk into a store right now and within three seconds i could smell. If there's dead rats in that store i will never forget the smell of the presence of a dead rat somewhere in the store the grocery store or fuck and marc jacobs. I can walk in there and go. Ooh because of that. Woolworth say you go down that speed. Lacing at footlocker yeah the speed. Lacing thing i did. I won those competitions at that at champs footlocker for license shoes real man was the speech app. They used to when i started those jobs. They used to give me crap. Because i was a ceo's kid but then it turned out. I could actually sell shoes. Pretty good in the they laid off pretty fast. And then i would give him. The ride is home in the lexus. And then it was great. Oh you drop me off at home and alexis okay. Well you remember our deal. You wanted to buy a car. And said i would match dollar for dollar on your earnings sold. A lotta shoes on hands in these soling shoes on sunday saturday and sundays. And then when you got your your paycheck and realized they took taxes away. What i do to welcome. But you saved up enough to to buy that mustang Yeah was the subaru. Before that we then traded for the mustang. Yeah what about you know. You've run companies where there is a person's name on the door and a person at the top of the pyramid whose name is on the door. And you've run companies where it's more non animus. Did no one really gives a shit who the executives are. What are some of the real core differences in working with those kinds of companies while not being the person whose name is on the door. Well look the first thing i always do. Is i have tremendous respect and appreciation for a founder. Somebody who had an idea how thought built it into something built up a name. Just like you're doing that. I mean what you've done as an entrepreneur starting from scratch so impressive to me. you know. maybe i've gone the other way. And i've climbed the career ladders and i've moved up and all that stuff but you know when i've gone to companies where the owner founder name on the door is You know one of the great asset. So i always start by saying you know. How do i enhance this. How do i improve this. How do i preserve this. But underneath that you've got to run a business properly or that won't carry you forward and so how you finance business how you manage it how you market it. How you merchandise it. How you staff at how you make. Money is agnostic between the two types of businesses. But when you have that type of ego have there been situations where you really had to stop the ego from doing something that could have been just catastrophic to the business for like an ego related reason. Sure and that's always a tough discussion and there's always you know there's a math point to be proven but it's never about the math. It's about how do you balance Either a branding moment. That doesn't make economic sense. may pay dividends long-term or owner founder. Wants to do something and you know my point of view was. I always tried to do as much as i could to accommodate those situations in less was gonna put us into a ditch in which case i threw myself in front of the bus and said this isn't gonna work for these reasons and you know you've got to trust me on this. I've given on all these other occasions but this time i think we gotta say now I yeah there. A couple of really funny specific instances. You've told me about that if you don't wanna mention An recorded medium later that dan. I'm sorry didn't go there. if you did. It would have been really funny. But it's okay if he doesn't want to until until today he wouldn't even allow me to post pictures of him on social media you. That's true because you know you. You never know who you told where you were not that you're being dishonest or anything like that but you know you know you got to juggle the ball you know and and i always tried to keep a personal low profile now sometime. My job doesn't always allow it. But i it's never been about me and you know your success in your career is about you but i also remember the time at woolworth on its way to being footlocker where we had security guards sitting in front of her house. Remember that guy following you to school following the school at followed the school. I never knew that. Tell me about yeah. turns out. Can't go near a school where i got. Larry remember that guy sat in a ford probe driveway. Yeah eating fucking mcdonalds for a couple of months probably right. Yeah we we needed security because you know we had threats and number following me to school though on the sly this whole time. Yeah will you keep that stuff in your head and you know forget it so yeah yeah much better at running things managing things doing the right thing but trying to keep a low profile as well. Now you're a now my anywhere. And now i mean who can't be worked from home at this at this stage of the game who can be right. did In you know as i grew up you know starting from our when. I was little our little house in in new jersey and then slightly bigger house slightly nicer cars slightly bigger to me. Your your your career seemed like a linear progression of bigger and bigger successes and it pretty much was just destroyed line. Ascent where was it. Not what are. Where's the big miss. That i don't know about well interesting observation. I u We started ma. You know your mother. And i started working at saks together and met there and You know got married there and start at the half kids and she stopped working. Believe it or not when we made the decision firdaus. Stop working. stay with you guys. She was making more than i was. Yeah we we that that comes up frequently and so it was. It was a decision who was going to stay home. Mom but honestly if mom had stayed in the workforce i she could have been a very successful executive. I mean she was. She has the mind for yeah. She was a vice president at saks. Fifth avenue when she left but she made the investment in you and alexis. And i think that was a good trade off personally but Look every job had its challenges. Every job had its Stress points again. When i went to the woolworth. Initially it had Thirty two companies in seventeen countries thirty of which lost money. And i gotta wonder how it gets there. I mean is. It's like looking at a nine hundred pound person going well. You didn't just wake up nine hundred pounds. You started at three and then four and then five. It was in slow decline since the sixties and i went there and ninety four so you can imagine the speed with which that declined and they had just fired. The ceo and the cfo corp. Cooking the books. And i had the unscramble a company that was losing nine hundred million about to go bankrupt and of course the day i started. They showed me the real books which were different than the outside books. And that caused me to go to the board and saying look you represented this to be this and it's really that i'm willing to try to work my way through it. But we're going to do it. Step by step and we started on the real books based on the real books and the real situation. Nightmares gordon ramsay. Coming in and being like that fucking sauce in there is from november. We need to understand that. This is that sauce and stuff doesn't work and so we started unravel it but i would work from seven in the morning till ten eleven at night go home exhausted wake up at one in the morning after two hours of collapse sleep with so many ideas running through my head i would get up and go back to work because i couldn't go back to sleep. That went on for four or five years. Until i fixed the business and i was exhausted at the end of it and it wasn't easy and we had a business in frankfurt germany. If you remember this. I went to frankfurt every month for three days for three years to fix a business. What locker germany. Or what was woolworth. It was a billion to losing seventy million. And i wanted to sell it. But i couldn't find a buyer until i fixed it. Y'all fools no. You don't sponsor falls. That's the money. Well they had. They had systems that told you the sales once a month not once a day. Well let's see. They had a system that showed everybody's birthday and that was not important so it was tough. It was okay. But that's that's where you arrived somewhere and it was not as as it was presented. What about where you made a choice or move. That really just didn't work out a man you know it's not that i tried to learn something from everywhere i went now. You know some places better than others. Some places easier than others but i always tried to learn something and and i can say you know with a straight face when i left somewhere i always left it better than i found it and that was my hallmark of success. Is it better. Having had roger here in some capacity over some period of time or not and and i always felt that way i had more fun in some jobs and others Some jobs where i was you know had some wind at my back. And if i did well you know to celebrate it. Some jobs had the wind in my face where even going from a d. to be level i couldn't get the a was still herculean and so i tried to learn from it and you know the tough times were when i was traveling one hundred fifty nights a year all over the world and you you come home and you put your suitcase near the bed because it never goes away. Yeah by the time you've recovered you're on your way to the next trip and that was tough. I never. I never wanted to put on a suit but i somehow ended up in that same position where i would work twelve hours a day and travel a hundred and fifty two. You have passion so passion. I like my job. It's okay you do it with more pleasure than if it's drudgery and you're just doing it to pay the bills. Yeah if you're going into another fucking boardroom. That happens to be in shanghai. I mean that's a that's horrible. Yeah well global travel in the beginning is fun because you're seeing the world albeit through the eyes of a of a conference center or a you know but at some point it goes from being fun and interesting and different too. I can't believe. I gotta get another plane and fly fifteen hours to asia and be whacked out because it's thirteen hour time difference. Yeah work hard for five days. Turn around and come back and you know. Go back into the office. The next morning. I mean those were tough times. It obviously with Zoom and teleconferencing. The landscape has really shifted in the last year but ignoring just the last year. And maybe it's hard to do that. European called the nineties and two thousands where you're doing all that travel but you're managing a lot of people and you've got assistance. You know that that filter out a lot of noise for you and manage your schedule so you you know your your brain is going. But it's but you're you're you know you know where you gotta be and win vs today where we've got this thing in our pockets and it's expected that we are in contact twenty four seven and expected response times for things quicker and do we have it better off now or do we have it better off than when we figured out you know. Get interesting question. I i did have well trained help. And so my assistant would take at the time the mail or what became you know faxes whatever and she would sort it every day between urgent. You need to look at this today You need to look at it this week or she would put it in a travel folder. That i would take on the plane. And i would take the mail room and they would wait for me before i left. I would read it all through the plane right through the night comments a fucking ricksen paper the bricks of pen then when i would land would bring home these bricks four five inches thick and it's just a brick of of numbers. Nothing is just numbered. Page number number number number number two. What do you do with this. What he sees the music. I get off the plane and i take the package. That was pre. You know weighed and stamped. And i stick it in the envelope back to her but i also would come home at night after a long day and i would have bricks of information prepping for the next day it was it was just because all much homework spent a week on and you hand it to zack. And he spent ten hours on any hands it to me and i can spend an hour on it. It better be good. It better be right. It better be thoughtful and i would read it at night on my lap watching tv. But you know. I actually the old days gave me some insulation from this insanity where somebody sends you an email at eleven in at three in the morning. People are responding. And if you wake up and you're the last to respond you feel like you're slow. Yeah that has gone. That's the new being being getting to work after your boss right is being the last person on the chain to respond to the on the west coast when my job i used to have it on. The east coast always felt up. Woke up feeling goes on the back foot. Why i started getting up at five thirty i worked day goes from six. Am to three pm. I work east coast hours on the west coast. Take because kazaa. I'm behind wake up. I understand it. But i have gone through decades of transformation there. You know when i first started. It's extra avenue in seventy five came out of school executive trainee making one hundred nineteen dollars a week by the way that for inflation. It's one of those things that doesn't sound like much. But i bet you that's like fucking sixty year now or something out no would have to be allowed one hundred nineteen bucks in one thousand nine hundred seventy five hundred nineteen bucks a week. Yeah but my my new. Ceo started a come at seven in the morning. It's not much five hundred and ninety dollars does not that is not a lot. You're right. that's right. Yeah not a lot. I guess your loan calculator says. I can't even get a loan on that. They won't give you. They won't give weeks making. What thirty thousand dollars. A year much money. But i came in earlier than him. I've told you this where he came in at seven dip. Tell me you've told me. But tell tell them. Because i've i've used this before. Okay some training. I'm just out of college Making nothing at saks fifth avenue. I'm sitting in a bullpen of glass cubicles and we get a new. Ceo with the first month of my arrival. And i noticed that he comes in and goes to his office at seven in the morning. Seven in the morning seven in the morning so i started coming in at six thirty so i would be at my desk having commuted from new jersey at six thirty and he would pass my little cubicle. See me sitting there and he would walk to his office so the first week he walked by me second week. He's nods third week. He says good morning by the fourth week he says who are you and what and what are you doing here. Come see me on saturday because he worked saturdays. So i go into see him on saturday and he says you know i see you more than i see my vice presidents. You know who are you. Tell me about yourself and you know. I'm not acts. What can you do so can't do these interest rates for me. And so he said. Tell me three things you think. I should be working on now. I was right out of school. The ceo right. Tell me three things that you think he should. Why why did you even say this was. Was this a test. He was giving you seeing that. You seem to be motivated but making sure you were for real like this. It was his way of getting to know me because he was curious about. Who is this guy who's beats me to work every day. I'm sure his ego was wrapped. Up and i'm the first guy to work every day and now a trainee is sitting there every morning. He doesn't know what to get in there. Four five all. He knows noses. I'm there before him and he wanted to see how i thought and i told him while. I think you know the men's department isn't well. Well run. And i think the hr department he says you know i like you. I'm gonna make you a buyer which meant i stepped over being an assistant buyer. I stepped over being a department manager. I jumped from being there a couple months three or four years ahead based on this conversation with the guy he said. I'm going to have you go see the senior. Vp next week. And he has a job for you well. He must've told the senior vp. Who hated the idea fell totally put out. And the guy said well. I have four buying openings. I've been told to make you a buyer. Very nice say that way. There's the men's sweaters said well. that's kind of interesting. I have no idea what the says you would go to factories and design houses and literally buy the items that go on the shelves in a department store that sells many different brands or see fashion in europe and go to asia. And have it made and you know a sort. The sweater department of sex with avenue. He said no that. I have somebody in mind for that. Men's neck wear ties at the time. That could be interesting. I got somebody in mind. I'm gonna make you the underwear pajama and sock buyer. I said underwear pajama sock. I don't wanna do that. He said what are you crazy. You're going to be a buyer after being here for six minutes. So i said all right. Well i'll do it. But i don't need any assistant. I can do it myself. Well first year at a forty percent increase and they made me the shoe buyer. And the guy said don't expect you're going to have a forty percent increase. Shoes are really hard and by the way. Today's thursday you're now the shoe by friday you have to go to on a buying. I don't know anything about shoes. I basically wore sneakers most of my life now. I'm the shoe buyer and what happened was because it was a business that had your name attached to results your results. Here's your thirty year down thirty so it wasn't about how you part your hair or do they like you or not like you. The results spoke for themselves. And that's all i want is so if i did well. You had to promote the shoe department. It was sleepy industy and fashion. And i had a huge increase in choose which they couldn't believe didn't you as a buyer or a young executive introduce a brand into america for the first time. Yes so you're remembering the story that my first buying trip to europe every day on the job i'm thinking i'm gonna go find fashion in europe by and i saw everybody wearing these Rubber soled wingtip in sort of tan leather everywhere. I went. I said kay that must be a trend and i bought a whole bunch of shoes and they came in six months later and the genetic sleep at night. I go to the stockroom. I open the boxes. I put them away and put the shoes out and it was dead on arrival. Nothing salt and i was so despondent. I mark them down and they sold out So what did that tell me. They were overpriced. The price was wrong. Right otherwise the fashion the fit the quality was right. Okay about the same time. These two guys walk in to see me from canada from roots and they were trying to sell me negative heel shoes where you the. He'll is lower than the front. They were supposed to be. Good for your back at the time. these fucking kramer shoes from seinfeld right. It's like the jumping shoes right. And i said well. I don't think we can sell that but if you can make these shoes for this price the tips. Yeah maybe we can have a business They went back. They made the shoes. It was a blowout success and that started the roots business which became yuejin canada. You saw john candy. Wear the jacket at the olympics. So i really helped get them started. And that's success. Then got me elevated the be the clothing buyer and i was buying suits and blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah so interesting. Yeah the Rate down here. Oh yeah are we. Are we post. Peak retail is is is retail. You know you've built and had big stores. You know multimillion dollar ralph lauren stores and all these crazy you know anchor stores. They do twenty million dollars in the first week in tokyo or whatever the fuck but like is is retail dead. Well not if you ask amazon. Well as in person retail debt I think it's going to be a hybrid. I think people like to go out and shop. I think this country got s- toward if you look at the amount of retail square footage in this country versus any other developed country in the world where seven x. Whoa so that wait. Repeat that say again. The amount of square footage per capita in the us is 7-x any other developed and that includes residential and commercial. No retail space. Oh we have seven times as much. Retail space per individual has any other developed nation. So that's what you see contracting now. Yeah that overbuilt the over mall retail is all contracting to wear it will find find its level that in compliment with online shopping. I believe is the future So did yeah. I mean i guess yeah so you think those big splashy anchor stores will stay but the smaller regional stores may not. I think where there were. Developments that were speculative and they built them with the belief customers would drive an hour to get there are in real trouble. Many of them are being plowed under now. Some of them and make verdict the medical centers or other uses. We're looking at the you know we're considering department stores for storing carson right because the footprint is tall ceiling on print and it's sitting there and sales per square foot kept dropping and dropping and dropping so people would cut the staff. The service got worse. The assortments got thinner. Because people would put less inventories. Now you go into big monster. Store doesn't have enough inventory doesn't have enough help in a spiral keeps going down. Yeah yeah You you were just talking about the crazy crazy hours and you know all this travel after fifty years all the all the money that you and we will ever need law. The success that anyone will ever need was the work life balance worth it. Or if you didn't do you know if if you were advising someone else maybe your son or someone like him. If working that hard for that many years to end up where you've now ended up if that is if that is a worthwhile pursuit or if dialing it back a little bit for your sanity could have been okay to you know mad. It's the essential question of all this work. I was very competitive. I like to win. Never gonna end up the richest person when you're fundamentally an employee even as a ceo owners make more than employees But i was competitive. And i like to win and i had great stamina at that stage of my life and i had an amazing wife in. I have an amazing wife in vivian. Who felt the kids. Were in good hands. But then there's the. But i never took more than a one week vacation until very late in my life which was a mistake. I could've taken to nothing bad would have happened. I work six days a week. The first twenty five years of my life. I'm not sure i needed to do that. But i was driven to do it. you know. I certainly tried to put the family. You know in a position of comfort. But you know there are trade-offs and it's not just your physically traveling. Sometimes when you get home you're too tired to engage in the normalacy of the family life or life with your friends. So i tried you the way i saw it was and maybe this isn't the right term but you attempted to retire a couple of times. You were not successful at it. I was you got bored. I totally accept that. Because i did try a couple times and i tried to change the paradigm a couple of times and You know my mind was reactive. I still had you know ideas and i got sucked back in now. Maybe the answer to your question is i could run at one hundred miles an hour and then stayed retire. Yeah and maybe that's would have better better solution yacht life at forty five. That could have worked. I could have done any of those regrets. I try to look forward and not look back. So i try now. Even though i'm much older advice now be to take that two week vacation. We all right. I would say you got to be passionate about what you do. You gotta give it your best. Because my worst fear and i've told you this is waking up later in life and saying i wasn't successful because i didn't try hard enough if i don't succeed let it be because i don't have the ability or the skill don't let it be because i didn't try hard enough and even when i played sports there was a point at which the matter how much i practice. I couldn't get good enough to get to the next level. And i had to say okay. I've tried my best. It's time to move on but in work. I didn't want to wake up and say if i had just tried harder and that drove me but the trade off is could i have taken a second week of course could could i take in the full weekend off. Of course i could could've. But now i'm looking at it through the lens of sixty eight years old versus thirty eight or forty eight. I think that's why. I'm trying to not ignore it. Now at forty two gum trying to determine what level of success what level of financial reward you know and what level of driving myself crazy with work. Where does it happen. Where i 'cause i watch you know i'm jealous. I think you do it better than i did it. Well because i had an example to watch didn't have an example jr and so or or. Maybe you had an example. I mean i don't even know what it was like waking up and watching grandpa go to work every day i mean i must have been borderline scary. Yeah but you've you've from afar. I'm watching from afar. I think you've found a better work life balance and i think you take great joy and pleasure out of the things you do outside of work. Sure we're in my case. I was always distracted So i don't look back. I don't i try to if i learned something. I try to apply going forward. But i think the work life balance that you're trying to achieve is a better work life balance than i had. Okay i mean. I'm pretty happy with my life so i'll take it. I will and and retired retired. Rogers good retired. Rogers enjoying it enjoyed his his his life. Bef- last last one of mine before we get to some some from the fans. All these jobs You know we just talked about some of the downsides the struggles that that is a little less glamorous outside the the headlines in the paychecks. Let's end that on. What about what is the best. Job perk the aside from a nice check in you know shares. What what is the coolest job perk that you have gotten from one of these jobs. I tell you that that i got the biggest juice out of the affirmation from the people that said i feel safe with you on the wall. This jack nicholson line and i used to get cards and letters or people coming up to me and saying thank you. This bonus check has been changed changed my life. I can take care of my parents. I send my kids to school. And i feel safe under your leadership that affirmation was as gratifying to me as stock options. Or you know any of the other supposed- perks of the job. But what i had to accept. Is i want it to be in charge. I wanted the final shot. I wanted the decision. I want it to be able to handle the pressure but when people said to me later you changed my life. Hopefully for the better That to me was all the gratification i needed. He was hoping for some material bullshit. But okay we'll go with that that's better answer. The rock answer for the fence. Sure just about fans. Well that's That's that's that's my prep. That's what i have. We have never received more questions in a shorter amount of time within fifteen minutes. I said please stop asking questions. Really had four pages. Oh my god all right so feel free to you. Know answer as many. Or as few. But i'm just saying like people and their i filtered them. I think these are pretty good. Okay thank you. The fans asking Pretty good appropriate questions. If you had a general car question or or something. I skipped it For obvious reasons. Well i'm gonna talk about cars because matinee have had some fun car experiences and i would probably relate to our trip to the baja. Yeah when matt. And i went there because alexis matt's vacation didn't line up and i said all right i'll go with matt somewhere and vivian went with alexis and i thought matt was going to say. Let's go play golf in hilton head. And he said well entered us in the baja five hundred did the white community the wide open full experience and we got in this car. The seats are welded to the frame. Give we have air hoses. We have helmets. We have neck braces. We have back braces. And he's a little nervous and he's the youngest guy in the race and i'm the oldest guy in the race and he says you drive i and we start driving and we're bouncing along and my kidneys within thirty minutes. I gotta go to the bathroom. This is there's no absorption in this car and you know after while. I'm getting a little comfortable. I think i'm steve mcqueen and bullet and the second day boot. Yeah a car in front of us goes over a hill flips over hands up. Oh yeah guy rolled it. Didn't guys bleeding. One guy has a concussion. Matt ni- pullover. We've got a call the helicopter to get these people outta here forgot about that. I don't wanna get out. I don't wanna get in the car again. And so i'm like i've gone from steve mcqueen to walter mitty going faster and faster every day doing more the driving. This is the greatest day. We're flying along launching the buggy. And i'm getting on in the part of the wide open class to not really break our shit. We didn't break our car and everyone else broke their remember when the car started smoking and they had to cut a hole in the hood. Yeah i guess we got I don't know what happened but The the engine started to overheat and it was a subaru motor in these things and so they were water cooled. And so it had the radiator up front and they just they just hacksaw hole right in the body threw it aside and they said keep going on and we were all right. They do having said that you know. He's talking about bitching out and everything. Meanwhile i'm that was directly led to my first surge getting beat the hell and every night we pull into a place and i'm passing out on the bed match going out the party with the paratroopers and sniper. I wake in the morning. I was such a tough game a week after we get back matinees back surgery. Something hurts. he He took it hard but Amongst our trips. That was one of the things i remember things to do As a good one Says someone very experienced running large organizations. Can you talk about some of your top leadership skills and tactics aside math and how you worked on those skills. We already talked about your your knowing the questions ahead coming back and already talked about keeping a solid team around you anything else you want to add to that. I think one of the things. I would say From a career point of view is always be as prepared as you can be be go into an interview or if you're going to a situation do your homework do as much research a lot easier now than it used to be know as much about people as you could now and make sure you're as prepared. Don't ever walk into a meeting thinking you just going to wing it because you always miss something so i i would add that and the other fourth point after people in math would be stamina. You need a lot of mental and physical stamina to succeed in these kind of jobs I think we covered joe's there What are your opinions on the nba. Is it necessity is there. is it. necessary My simple answer is no I went to an undergraduate business school. So i had four years of Didn't you graduate in three. I did but it's four years. Why did you get out of college early. Yeah years that isn't that that seems like something not most people don't do. I missed my senior year. Which i should've had. I was so determined to see how good i was. And i thought college was so theoretical and i looked at the teachers. And i said you've never done this in the real world. You're all book smart. But and i said i wanna see if many interesting considering i went to that school fucking thirty years later well i went to summer school every night of i had a job during the day and then i went at night from six to aid and from seven to nine on thursday tuesday sport at the same time was playing a sport at the same soccer and basketball the first couple of years and then i stopped because i wanted to get out early and i needed to double up my classes. So I your people got pretty far though right the very successful basketball when i was a freshman freshman freshman team that were number one in the country. Most of the year ended up number three. But i think you can get a high quality education. And you don't need an mba to succeed This one may or may not be in in dad's Wheelhouse but how do you see. Privacy as a commodity in this age is kind of uncompromising to just have a phone. You insulate yourself. I mean you. You are very privacy oriented so yeah i try to keep my privacy. My thoughts my life Private i can. I think what's great about. Technology is access to information. And i think you can use it for that without having to put yourself out there. You live with your life out there match. So you've you've come to a different answer I figured out how to how to make it work. Okay though because i've seen you stressed out because your phone never stops and email stop. Yeah i i've figured out you know has helped me figure out when to turn it off and things like that. I saw that at dinner the other night when she said during the phone off i was talking to her brother. Sick can't win with your wife either. Talk to the brother to talk to the brother. Not enough for now is the wrong but My personal opinion is you used the best parts of technology and keep keep yourself more private This is an interesting question And the background of it adrian. How much of your success would you attribute to sacrificing work life balance and being willing to move locations and or traveling. You traveled a lot but we also moved from new jersey to atlanta and then from atlanta back to new york for for jobs. Yeah well early in my career. I w- i was willing to do what i had to do. In terms of location changes or work. my wife was very supportive is very supportive. Didn't you also say no to a couple of pretty good jobs because of where we would have had to move a ton of them because there were what was the biggest job. You turn down disney. Well disney harrods in london are. It's the gap in san francisco On and on and on and you know once we got done. What the turnaround at woolworth. Every company that needed a turnaround would call me. My answer was you know. I've done that once. It was a near death experience. Don't wanna do it again. Yes i have the skills. But i don't wanna do it and so i. I'd like to manage a short ego maniac for fifty years instead. Let me just do that. That'll be fun Ben says it was great to meet you at the aston martin party at pebble beach. We may be back there. Save a space Ed says roger. What was the most valuable piece of advice given to you in your career. Also any general tips for soon to be graduated business management student boss that that was. The story is worth for sure out work. The competition is one of them. But i think you gotta start with have a passion for what you do you know. Love the business. The industry your your career. Would you say that was the best piece of advice given to you or do you hell. That's my best advice. Anybody who's starting now. Make sure you can be in a few spent thirty forty fifty years in an industry. It's something you love Zach scroll down. I wanna find i'm gonna i wanna sort by interesting. It's nothing personal anybody How how would someone stand out a with. A bachelor's degree in apparel design wants to work in high fashion or outdoor how does a designer fashion east stand out. Did you ever worked on that side of business. The disaster i mean look. Talent is in short supply. So if your friend is talented or you're talented and you're in the creative side of of Any business whether it's car design or whether it's apparel and fashion people are always looking for talent. It's much harder to find design talent than business talent and so i would always try to start with the top companies because your ability to express yourself in a top company is better than a struggling company with an urgency about survival. And there's not a chance to take risk better. Companies can take risks and therefore i'd rather start there when i'm looking for work When you when you have you ever been in a situation as an executive where a brand is doing some really like off vaunt guard like weird thing and you're like idol this is. I don't know what you guys are even doing. Okay well the seventies and eighties. Japanese designers started to come on the scene. There design aesthetic was so different than europe or the united states. it was shocking And i would say that. It took a while to get adjusted to their design aesthetic and for it to become considered more mainstream. Yeah got the the foam. I don't someone is going to have to explain to me why anyone spends a dime on that thing. I just don't get it but that's kind of cool when your shoe if you bought that as a shoe buyer i mean it's like i would've called the roots guys. Redesigned knocked this thing off. Twenty percents thing but if you make life jackets i will sell tyler. Says what was due. Hayden's after tyler's what was your first job Did you always see yourself climbing ranks in the fashion world or what. What sucks you in. You wanna talk about grandpa's factory. Yeah i mean it's it's an interesting career. I've ended up with. Because i probably have less interest in pure fashion than most i've seen. What's your view wrangling. Going dressler doing fly fishing this. I'm ready. I'm assuming this is the work life balance fund But i i would say the You know the reality of of trying to be a with Fashion as a consequence of my business experience came out of my father match grandfather. Who owned a small robe company and when i was a teenager i worked in that in summers in the department and the cutting room on the cutting room tables and you know in the fabric buying departments and i was going to go into the family business. How did my older brothers two older brothers and three cousins were already in it. There was a lot of You know conversation about whether you're rogers coming in. I was the youngest son and working there. In the summers. I saw a lot of the family. Drama play out. And you know when i was coming out of my father said Why don't you go into retail for a couple years and and see if you like it and never looked back. You're like yes out Hayden says how do you feel about wall street pressuring executives into meeting. Eps numbers sometimes making them. Use unsound accounting. I don't know what any. Ps number is what. I'm sure per share out. Sorry the answer is yes. There is a lot of pressure. You do get scrutinized for how well you perform against wall street expectations. So people do feel pressure but your personal integrity is what prevents you from making unsound decisions. If you don't have integrity believe me. The auditors aren't going to stop it and the board of directors are gonna stop it dishonest executives create this on x. experiences so i did have pressure. I never felt the need to do anything in the gray. I always thought your ethics were and what you told me about. Ethics really really did stick to me. And i've always been worried that one day i was gonna find out you were full of shit but i'm glad i haven't. Hey matt i was worried you know like oh man i just don't please don't let me be wrong about his try and ethics. Please please try to do the right thing. Yeah we don't talk about me. I can't sit through that. I'm sorry Jake says what was your first and current car. Well my first car was a hand me down. Volkswagen beetle that we bought in stood guard. My two older brothers. An i was fourteen. They were sixteen and twenty one all three brothers over six feet tall. We drove a volkswagen beetle. Around europe for two months and then shipped it back to the united states and then it started with my older brother. Then my middle brother. And then i got as a hand down. And then very soon. After that i ended up with a nineteen. Seventy one orange inge. Now i believe it was a seventy two seventy two thank you. Yes and the reason. I know that is because i have been looking for one four years and as it turns out there weren't many there were very few. The gto was discontinued. After the seventy-one model line gto started as an option package for the lemoyne's then became its own model. And then between seventy two seventy four. It went back to an package as the lamont. So it looks like a gto lamont's gto. They have a different hood. They have different nose. And the difference between a seventy one and a seventy two is that you fucking never see a seventy two. They don't exist. Well i had one. And it's the love of my life. i zack. Showing me the seventy to see the good. I can tell the difference with a seventy two. It has the big nostrils down by the nose. Yes whereas the seven sixty nine seventy one as the small guests in the mid. So i had the big nostrils down near the knows what color mine was like. A burnt are on the bottom. Second row on the right maybe Sort of sort of. It's hard to tell the orange pontiac right about the orange pontiac color. Yeah that's that's that's exit. Found the orange pontiac orange pontiac color. I mean it's a cool car but the they don't exist anymore. They made in the three three digits of these in seventy two well that car when i dream i still have dreams of that after the show i bet you i won't have to after this show. They will come to okay. I'm talking about something on this show. I talked about a volkswagen casually. Might theoretically eventually someday want to buy a dozen of them in my inbox. Somebody's guy one. Let me know you gotta seventy-two gto automatic. It's got to be a real gto coop orange. Let me know could be love. Your like can't find one in. It's my only dream. I dream about it all the time. I only dream. I got a smart bird. I now have a Porsche cayenne turbo and a aston martin vanquish so the cayenne to order shit. Which with impartial world is a is. That's a problem you don't order stuff because you're left with what's on the lot. Which is what people ordered him. Didn't want when it arrived. He likes to show up on the lot and point at something and go that one. I'm i'm into instant gratification. So that's how you ended up with the weirdest cayenne turbo in history unique. It's fucking weird but that's why you can't find my gts with the cayenne. It's black owner espresso leather with the google factory aero kit and factory arrow to sport design wheels it then has the extended burl wood leather with contra burwood dash with contrast nice sacrifice really strange. It's going to be collected leather. Yeah it's really strange. But whatever but you're colorblind. I could see action. I can see the color of pu point. Faraz points young. Farah andy says. How would roger recommend someone rung below the c. suite at a small p. back venture address the c. suite about their missteps and failings how would a mid level manager tell a top level executive about bad things that are going on. Well if it's bad things going on in the company that's one answer if it's mistakes. They made and steps feelings. I think y- you know your question obviously points to the obvious which some c. suite people don't like to be told when they're wrong. I think if you build your case that's thoughtful and why given the choices this one is perhaps wrong and there are some other ways to go. What you wanna do is not just point out. What's wrong but point out ways to solve initiative. Yeah that that is a helpful conversation if it just comes across as a criticism as a critique its people don't like that to outside people would come to me with a problem or crisis and i would say so. Tell me how you think about this. Tell me what the choices were. Tell me how you got this one and and you know that's the basis of a conversation if you just wanna push a problem onto my desk. That's not very helpful. Yeah yeah We'll come back to some of these. Keep going down keep that it. Yeah okay well do these What is the most stressful job. You've had and how did you manage the stress. Not well i can say from home. Well i think we talked about a little earlier. this the will live in. God's turnaround was was quite difficult and When you're winding a broken business and undoing fraudulent balance sheets and you're trying to do it in the best possible way it. It's not easy to communicate it in. It's not easy to be the decision maker that has to make hard decisions. And it's you know that expression is lonely at the top is true. You're you're left with a lot of tough decisions and those people that go to jail or anything like that or is i mean it. Was there anything criminal about what they did or was it. They were fine as and they were. You know there was some you know bad stuff that went on but once i took over our job was to fix it move forward. Yeah good working in buzzy nece says working in an l. b. o. group the articles about the merger. Imagine we're talking about tiffany and lvmh seemed pretty interesting Any stories about dealing with investment bankers. They can be pretty clueless. you know. Investment banking is a very interesting profession because they get paid a percentage of the deal price no matter what where the banker with a lawyers and the accountants get paid by the hour so their goal is to drive the prices. High as possible as an acquirer. That's not a good thing as a seller. It's it is a pretty good thing so you were the seller in this case so in your benefit so their desire to help a transaction occur was a positive But in the end you know they're very good ones. They're very honorable ones and the ones i probably wouldn't do business with again and i think that's the range of any any But the amount of money they made on this transaction relative to the work they did was disproportionate Joe says what is the best simple advice you could give to a recent college grad ignorant to the world. What's up pretty. That's a pretty big tough question. Well i would combine a couple answers into be passionate about what you wanna do. Invest in yourself read learn study. Don't necessarily wait for the company that employs you to do all your education. I i always believed you. Owe it to yourself to learn at least fifty percent and i o ju fifty percent of education but if you only expect the company you're working for teach you you're going to shortchange your opportunities and it with impressed to you that i'm sponsored by tradecraft farms. That's the wheat company. I understand i am very proud of you on so many levels that may not be the highest one. Oh that's not what you're telling everybody about. What's more interesting is how i met the guys from tradecraft farms. Because usually when i'm in a car show or something people approach me and say. Hey you're matt or you're you're the guy from the smoking tire or whatever now it was are you rogers son. That's how i met them. One of those guys used to make shoes and sell them to one of your companies and so he actually yeah new you. And that's how i got into the trade tradecraft farms. We're going to go on a little I'm i'm gonna take my parents on monday to grow up we're gonna take them to tradecraft farm so they can actually see it and we're excited. I they requested so interesting. It's amazing turn. it's very funny. So how is that is that okay. That was great man. Thanks for having me. This is my job. Why did we wait so long. I was never wanted to tell anybody that you were in california. That was why all right. I'm retired entire. It doesn't matter now. We now have a weekly business advice. Show okay if you on give you something to do with the house cool. You can remote it in cool. Yeah okay. well some the work on. Yeah thanks for having been asking for you to come do this for like a for years. Zach i'm proud of you too because i've known you for years and you guys have made something of yourself so i'm very proud of you. Thank you well done. Thanks dad hats off. Thank you i avoided. There's a lot of other questions that people were like. Tell us about mad. And i was like i don't even want to. I don't wanna hear about myself on the show. Sorry well you know that we're proud of you. I do. I have no. I have no doubt joy out of your success and your passion in life when you first came out to la to hang out with me. And i got stopped on the street by a fan and it like blew your fucking mind. That was that was like. We've we've turned the tables have turned you wearing hollywood and you have a fan. This is my son mad. And this is my father. Roger when we got recognized in south africa. Oh yeah one of your fans yeah That was shocking. Yeah getting ready. Getting recognizing the side of the world is crazy. I was shocking proud. And i have people who work from a figure out the connection your match your son. Yeah i have a fourteen year old boy you think that would like communicate with them. Probably i go up. Two levels in team helps. It helps you get that a bit of work out of that guy i sure. Will i appreciate it. Well that's our show folks. thanks for having. That's my dad. Here is If you're a shareholder sorry more shares our show zach. What do we have in the can for next week on schedule right now. No show crew show. I'm a couple of days thursday right cruise show on thursday. All right live people. Thank you for joining us. Live on a saturday morning. And thank you for submitting your questions. We appreciate that and we're going to go get Go to the farmer's market or something to go do something good idea from southern he's calling in. Oh yeah greg from sotheby's auctions we're gonna be talking about in person. Auctions are back They're bringing bringing big dollars. Everyone's thrown out records bear jackson and ram and they've all thrown out Record numbers on these auctions or even talking about car auction values next week You guys later bye.

weld saks J. b reilly michaels jamie weld roger Ray khan rais khan ray kon atlanta Roger farah bernard arnault us wharton school of business
Impact & Income - Building The First Sustainable Farmland Investing Company with Artem Milinchuk

Entrepreneur on FIRE

20:59 min | 3 weeks ago

Impact & Income - Building The First Sustainable Farmland Investing Company with Artem Milinchuk

"Shake the room. Fire nation j. l. d. here and welcome to entrepreneurs on fire brought to you by the hub spot podcast network with shows like my first million stories about companies that grew from nothing into legit businesses. Today we'll be focusing on impact and income building the first sustainable farmland investing company to drop these volumes. Brought our tem million. Chuck on the mike. He has over ten years of experience in food. Agriculture and farmlands prior to founding farm together. Our team was a number employees in cfo at full harvest technologies. He previously worked at ontario teachers pension. Plan and hold an mba from the wharton school of business and a ba in economics from the higher school of economics and fire nation. Today we'll be talking about. Why would want to invest in farmlands. What is investing exactly. And how does farm together work the impact the income that this will have on the world as a whole and so much more when we get back from thinking. Our sponsors customers want more from brands delivering more means owning the customer experience taking control over data acquisition analysis. Creative and delivery cleo caused this owned marketing they believe is the best path to growth. For more visit cleo dot com slash. Fire that's k. L. a. v. i y o com slash. Fire the hub spot. Podcast network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business. whether you're looking for marketing. Sales service or operational guidance. The podcast network hosts. Have your back listen. Learn and grow with the hub. Spot podcast network at hub. Spot dot com slash podcast network. Are tem say what's up to fire nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with john i would say. It's flexibility I think a lot of people agree with things like you need to persevere you need to be relentless you need to be smart you need to execute an all. Those things are very much true. But i think if you In that pursuit people forget that they need to really kind of Be very nimble and the thing about doing a start was that you have no idea of what people truly one they truly care about. You need to like really be receptive and very flexible as well. And i think that oftentimes gets missed in this like beating your chest. You know success at all costs no matter what. Keep going And so people glaze over that. And i think that's really important. I think flexibilities huge fire nation. That's why always encourage people to ask their audience. What is your biggest struggle right now and listen to their biggest struggles and then you provide the solution and you need to be flexible on that. Because you don't know what they're going to say and that's how you can win. And as i talked about during the introduction our town we're talking all about impact in income today about building the first sustainable farmland investing companies. So this is a very unique topic but very important to talk about. Because why the heck artem would anybody want to invest in farmland. That's a that's a great somewhat loaded question. Because i kind of turn it back to you and say like anyone think about investing into anything but far i like it. Tell me more because when you think about it you know. Farming and farmland is the oldest asset class. Our whole civilization right we as people have emerged wants. Agriculture emerged and when you're building a portfolio that needs to represent the actual underlying reality. I know. sometimes we forget that finances superstar represent the real world. The first thing to come to mind is food and water. And that's with farmland this so really it's the bedrock of civilization. We think it should be the bedrock kind of the number one edition to people's folios bedrock fire nation the absolu- bedrock and i liked that kind of multi use of the word and we're going to be talking more about exactly what that impact looks like and what the income could be looking like in the investors pockets but first off what exactly is farmland investing less specific on this and then how does farm together actually work absolutely so farmland investing is very much a real estate investing but it does have some unique qualities. real estate investing means that when you buy a property you typically expect it's priced to appreciate either through just longtime trends or through improvements and then you expect some sort of income from rental income or some other revenue streams and farmer is very similar so something that a lot of people don't know is that forty percent of farmland today is rented so farmers very comfortable renting renting out land. When you invest in farmland you buy a piece of an existing farm that farmers typically rented out or contracted out to inexperienced farmer. A newest investors receive cash flows from that land and participate in price appreciation and farmland has appreciated by almost six percent in the last Fifty years annually. Fire nation these kind of numbers and the type of opportunities. You need to be thinking to be outside of the box. Because that's my next question. Artem is how exactly does this. And by this. I mean farmlands compared to traditional investments. We were talking stocks and bonds which should be considered the more traditional investments that you know of course these days with things like game stock and all these other crazy things going on in the world are stocks really that traditional like who knows what the future is going to hold. But how does farmland compare absolutely and when we talk about returns we also want to talk about brisk so investing is two sided coin Since nineteen ninety-two farmland has delivered on average Annual total return switches price appreciation plus income of more than ten percent annually. And that actually compares really favorably with stocks with bonds. Even with real estate with infrastructure timber other asset classes out foreign actually outperformed almost all of them and then on a risk basis which is another way to think about his volatility. Farmland volatility is only about seven percent in that period which was much better than stocks and very comparable to real estate And bonds so. Listen we have a lot that i want to get to after we take a little break here but before we do i mean. Let's really dive more into how farm together works like what is farm together. How does it specifically work like any examples. You can give to kind of you know. Help myself and fire nation really understand this process absolutely so fun together is a platform with makes it easy for people to invest in farm because unlike stocks unlike bonds unlike crypto does actually very few vehicles for people to get exposure to invest in this asset class so it's online platform right now it's mostly accredited investors but we working towards making it accessible to non accredited investors as well and the way it works is that we have an in house a former investment team that looks through hundreds thousands of opportunities selects the best ones and then buys the land outright and the reason that the land is typically for sale is a due to a very took tony shifting ownership happening farmers are approaching age of sixteen. They all retiring kids. Don't want farm so lord of land is actually coming to the market anyway. So we're just acting as another buyer. Then we find another far more farming family to farm it And then that farm is put into a separate vehicle at delaware. llc and then we put a package around explaining why we think it's a good deal. We put it online on the platform. You as an investor lied you read through the materials very simple easy to understand You can listen to webinar and ask questions and then you can go online and invest in a matter of minutes through integrations with your online signing platforms with their banks. So you can literally become a owner of an almond orchard in californian in three minutes and all men orchard in california. I mean i almost every day. I would be cool knowing that has an eating as i'm like maybe i'm eating my own almonds from my own investments and i love how you just use the phrases bedrock teutonic shaft. I mean you've really committed to this whole idea of land farmland the world. We live on the ground beneath our feet and fire nation. We'll be talking about some more specific along these lines when we get back from thinking our sponsors the crm you choose to help you run grow in scale. Your business is important. And what's even more important is that you get your team on board with using it with huw spots. Crm platform you can trust that adoption will be easy. This means less time training your team more efficiency better data richer insights and all of this results in a bigger impact on the customer experience. So how does have a spot do it. For starters they provide what's called a contact timeline. Which gives you the historical context you need to get work done fast in connect with your prospects and customers in a meaningful way and if you're on the go then you can use hub spots mobile app to move forward anytime anywhere outreach. Team collaboration access the previous messages and the ability to take notes and attachments. As soon as you get off a call it's all there waiting for you. You can even send updates and messages using hub. Spot keyboard across multiple apps like whatsapp. Slack g meal and more learn. More about how you can scale your company without scaling complexity at hub. Spot dot com. Are you working around the clock. To build the business you always imagined. Do you want to communicate with your fast growing list of customers and personalize way but also in a way that gives you time to work on the rest of your business. Do you ever wonder how companies you admire. The ones that redefines our categories do it companies like living proof and chevy's they do it by building relationships with their customers from the very beginning while also evolving in real time as their customers needs change. These companies connect quickly with the customers collect their information and start creating personalized experiences in offers that inspire a rapid purchase often with minnesota uploading their customer. Data cleo empowers you to own the most important thing to any business the relationship between you and your customers and the experiences you deliver from the first email to the last promotion to learn more about how cleo helps you own your growth visit yo dot com slash fire. That's k. l. a. v. i. y. o. dot com slash. Fire are back. and let's get real about. How farmland can fit into the universe with assets with other alternatives. We're talking traditional real estate or maybe even like real assets like gold silver etc. Break down for us at like that. You use the word alternatives because that's actually one of the defining trends of investing in twentieth century the traditional stocks and bonds have been Over overboard a little bit. I would say but more so that there is a lot of other asset classes that are on correlated and so people are really looking to get into alternatives. Real estate farmland. Art crypto exhorted cars. You know you name it and so farmland. I think when we look at this sort of portfolio composition near to get a little technical a new look at the what's called the sharp ratio the risk to return to look at the total contribution to the portfolio adding farmland to your portfolio increases that sharpe ratio meaning their returns to resent the way that Farmland improves your kind of total portfolio composition. When not arguing that you should replace your whole portfolio with farmland with still thinks stocks and bonds should be kind of the core of your portfolio but adding alternatives can really sort of introduced that on correlated nature to your portfolio as well as enhanced with turns out farmers also. Great protect against inflation has done really well in periods of high inflation and in periods of recession. So we think it kind of fits in almost anyone's portfolio. And i really want to hone in on the words. Uncoordinated investments fire nation. I mean he mentioned exotic he mentioned. I mean well. He didn't mention but all mentioned shoes. Pokemon i mean these are all like you know kind of crazy things that people are investing in now because maybe they love it or they have a passion for it. They want to really dive deep into it. And this is another example of an uncoordinated investment so your portfolio doesn't just go up together you know when everything's going great like in the stock market and then i'll crash together when the stock market inevitably crashes because of course we have the ups and downs and recessions in the even depressions that all are going to be part of our future is just the world that we live and if we live long enough so uncoordinated investments can be super meaningful and you recently had a partnership signing with leading harvest as well as some other talk about that partnership what it means and why fire nation needs to know about it. Leading harvest is a new standard that was created last year and it is a sustainability standard for investing in and managing farmland when you think about farm land and farming overall it actually touches on so many key themes around sustainability and broadly that you went sustainable development goals which is kind of their overarching global framework that companies that wanted to good into space. Follow those goals very simple things like decrease hunger Improve the quality of food improve the quality of water. Things like that And so the the leading har- standard is a third party verifiable standard that is very action oriented and very measurable suits a number of metrics such as her. We started using less fertilizer to grow the same amount of food. Have we started using water more efficiently to really measure ourselves. The industry on how well we use farmland and so we excited to join that that standard is one of the first your emerging growing online platforms and the investment companies. Most of the players. That are really big. Kind of there are some of the largest players in the space so excited to be there and to also help them democratize that standard as well just like we're democratizing access to farmland and that's what is all about fire nation. It's all about coming together and improving everything we do. I mean well if we can like decrease the amount of toxins that are being used to grow our foods etc and you have better standards and democratizing things. It's going to be better for everybody. And that's kind of how i want to bring this home. Artem i wanna talk about impact. I want to talk about income. How is what you are doing going to actually benefit both investors pockets and the world as a whole. That's a great question. So i i will say that People don't know this but we actually losing farmland every year in united states along with lost about fifteen million acres from twelve to twenty seventeen which you know to put in. Perspective is twice the size of the state of massachusetts. Furthermore we especially around the world people actually clearing forests and burning them for very low-intensity agricultural. Because we need more and more food and we need to actually grow double them on food that we grew in two thousand nine to feed the increasing population. And how do you do this at the same time you know. Without further impacting climate. Change for the confusing up more resources and more land than the answer to that is is smart and sustainable agriculture. So when you invest with us every farm that we have will be on the leading harvest standards. We actually committed hundred percent of farms to that standard and that alone. I think should should make you feel really good. That will never do wrong by the lad or by the farmers well which is really the most important part of this equation with our Secondly the right now the farmland industry and farming overall. It's a little bit behind areas like real estate like other Other industries where finances much more developed in in farming does not enough creative capital solutions for farmers looking to transition to organic or regenerative agriculture. You can't just go to bank and get it alone like you. Do you know to buy a house. And so more. And more of our investments and our partners are structured around that either transition or expansion off your great farmers that are looking to expand the business so really when you invest with us you helping. I l farming families farming enterpreneurs expanding your cutting edge agriculturally talking drawings we talking regenerative. We're talking new varieties in we just close to deal with the stilt which the second largest apple grower in the united states. That intrigues this new apple radical Cosmic chris oh wow and that the cosmic crisp uses also this coding. That essentially is Prolongs the shelf life of the apple without impacting the taste or the quality of it so means less food waste as well. So we're real excited to have those kinds of partnerships. I mean fire nation. This is the kind of stuff that excites you. Because this is the kind of world that you want to have a hand in creating these type of investments you can make and again our tends. Not saying hey. Put your entire four one k. Into this because he thinks you should have a well balanced portfolio. But that's the point. This is potentially part of a well-balanced portfolio and especially you can feel good about because of all these fantastic things that they're doing so artem bring this home for us. What is the one thing you really wanna make sure fire. Nation gets from everything that we talked about here today. How can we connect with you more to learn more about it you have going on and maybe become a part of what you have going on and then we'll say goodbye absolutely so one. I think that investing in pharma is investing into the planet investing into the future. But at the same time it's investing into what is a one kind of unchangeable thing about a life. We need to eat and we need to drink water Secondly when you invest in farmland especially in in sustainable kind of farms You doing better for the planet and for the farmers and it's it's good returns. It's low volatility low correlation And the way to kind of learn more about it is to to farm together dot com We have a lot of great educational materials. White papers once webinars Sign up Follow deals We do webinars and you can ask a lot of questions before we feel comfortable investing once you feel comfortable you take the plunge and sort of follow your investment and. I think you'll learn even more looking to introduce annual and quarterly reporting reports from the field if we can Afforded logistically you and we'll be able to actually receive those california elements of the year so go fire nation. Come on this is some cool stuff. I mean you can invest almonds than you can eat the almonds even invested in. You know you're making a better place and you also know the you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with you've been hanging out with a r. j. l. d. today. So let's keep that heat and head over to l. Fire dot com type. Artem t. e. m. in the search bar. His shown us page will pop up with everything we were talking about here today. Best shows in the biz and again your direct called action if you wanna learn more fire. Nation farm together dot com artem. Thank you for sharing your truth. Your knowledge your values fire nation today for that we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Thank you so much. Hey fire nation. Today's value content was brought to you by artem ends one thing that have identified over the years. Successful entrepreneurs are disciplined are productive are focused. Which is why. I created the mastery journal. It is a gorgeous full other journal that will ensure that you master a productivity discipline and focus in one hundred days it is one of my best works ever visits the mastery journal dot com. Use promo code podcast. Free fifteen dollar discount and thank you for listening to my podcast and i'll catch you there or a catch you on the flip side. Customers want more from brands delivering more means owning the customer experience taking control over data acquisition analysis creative and delivery. Clave yo calls. This owned marketing. They believe it's the best path to growth for more visit. Clavijo dot com slash fire. That's k. l. a. v. i. y. o. Dot com slash. Fire the hub. Spot podcast network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the education and inspiration on how to grow a business whether you're looking for marketing sales service or operational guidance the have swat podcast network host. Have your back. Listen learn and grow with the hub. Spot podcast network at hub. Spot dot com slash podcast network.

wharton school of business higher school of economics and Artem artem Chuck ontario californian delaware john tony chevy california minnesota apple united states
 Sharon French Discusses Smart Beta ETFs

Masters in Business

1:22:09 hr | 2 years ago

Sharon French Discusses Smart Beta ETFs

"The masters in business. Podcast is brought to you by Invesco every day at Invesco. We bring together ideas with technology data with inspiration and investors with solutions. Let's invest in greater possibilities together. Find out more at Invesco dot com slash together. This is masters in business with Barry ritholtz on Bloomberg radio this weekend on the podcast. I have an extra special guest her name is Sharon French. And she is the head of beta solutions at often harm refunds. She has a storied career stopping at such places as J, P Morgan Chase alliance Bernstein and black rock, amongst others. She has been an instrumental person in the development and growth of the sector as well as a very active participant in the ES g environmental social and governance sector of investing. She is consistently named one of the most influential people in finance most recently cranes had their list of forty women, but find the list of one hundred most influential women in markets. Investing finance and Charon is invariably on that. List, you will find this to be an absolutely fascinating conversation. So with no further ado, Mike conversation with Sharon, French of Oppenheimer funds. VC's masters in business with Barry ritholtz on Bloomberg radio. I'm Barry ritholtz. You're listening to masters in business on Bloomberg radio. My special guest this week is Sharon French. She is the head of beta solutions at Oppenheimer funds where she also implements the firm's ES g efforts as well as overseas a number of smart beta ETF products and solutions. She has previously worked at such storied firms as black rock alliance Bernstein, chase J P Morgan Chase. She's a graduate of Wharton school of business and serves on the board of women in ETF's. Sharon French, welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you, Barry. I'm glad to be here. We've been talking about doing this now for a long time. I'm glad we finally got you in the studios to have this conversation. Let's talk a little bit about your career. You began back at Jay. Jp Morgan Chase when they were really much smaller shop, aren't they? Yes. Yes. Down on water street. One water street. Right. Across the Staten Island ferry what, what was? Yeah. What were they like, then? And what was your role with them? Sure. So I graduated with a management degree concentration in finance, I went into a sort of global training program with them, certainly, you know, much smaller at the time, you know, still very regionally based, you know, the, the project that I was working on, is really how to define profitability for the different product lines. But I got a chance, very early in my career to travel abroad to I lived in Paris, I lived in London lived in Milan Madrid Frankfurt, doing cost studies with country managers, and then making a recommendation to, you know, either D market, a product or, or, you know, sort of focus in a particular area. And so I was definitely over my skis looking back. I don't know that I knew really what I was doing. But I certainly. Learned a lot. Well, this was just right out of grad school. They start sending you this was right out of undergrad, right out of undergrad. So I was young. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to work really hard the first year and then, you know, sort of, you know, compete to go overseas. Thankfully, you know, I've never been China hard work. And so they, you know, gave me the opportunity, and I jumped at it. So you go from chase to Wharton. Would you go? So my undergrads from university of Delaware warden is my, my certified investment management analyst designation. That's right. And so where did you go from, from UPN? So, so then I just went straight into chase right? So my career in global banking then moved into brokerage than us at management. So all right. So then you go from how, how do you end up at black rock, right in the middle of the entire build out of I share? Yeah, yeah. That was fun. That was right after Larry Fink thought gee is so. Right. I think that deal closed December two thousand nine and look, you know, I certainly have an appre. She Asian abroad appreciation for financial services in general because my journey and career progression was like I said global banking wealth management. Brokerage platforms really Shearson Lehman Brothers up through what is now called Morgan Stanley. And then I went into asset management, always on the active or fundamental active side. Right. Which is what people like you and I grew up with the mutual fund. But what really drove me crazy at alliance Bernstein was that we would go into an institutional presentation. Right. So you've got the committee there, you've got the chief investment officer would be trying to sell whatever strategy and invariably probably fifty percent of the time, we would lose to be GI Northern Trust State Street, because of a passive mandate. And you know what I was trying to articulate to the chief investment officer is that the, the real prudent way to run the pension fund, as an example, is to figure out how to combine intelligent alpha with officiant beta so that there's really room for both. Of us. So what again, intellectually stuck in my brain is I cannot really as a practitioner, talk about the indexed enhanced index or or beta side of the business. And so I got a call from a recruiter. James Beck, wonderful recruiter here in New York City, and they had a position at I shares. And I loved alliance Bernstein loose Andrews, especially as leader was, was just a legend had such a fabulous research group, especially in the nineties, right? Into the absolutely. And bernstein. Plus, alliance was sort of like boom. Right. Is just a fabulous combination. So I never thought I would leave. But this I had this nagging thing in my brain. Intellectually as a professional that I needed to satisfy I needed to be able to talk about both sides of the investment management industry again as, as a professional. So that's really why I went. And I gotta tell you. And of course I got you know, I got grilled. And everybody said to me, oh, you're going to the dark side. And I guess I suppose I did. But I did it get too liberally. We'll buy dark side. You mean more efficient and low cost or dockside just the comp dark side? Anything passive right from fundamental active into the dark side of indexing, if you were you, you're dead. Right. When you say they're not mutually exclusive complimentary, and I don't understand why people I guess, when you losing business, and we've seen the flows of just when you started at I shares, did you ever imagine vanguard would be five trillion black rock would be six trillion and a decade of flows would shift from active to passes the way we've seen? No, I really didn't look you. And I both know that I think two thousand eight really propelled that forward dramatically. But, but when I joined, I shares vanguard in states were we're certainly above, I shares in terms of the league tables, but I came on strong and one of the big strategic moves that I shares made and this is right when Mark Wedeman took over two thousand and eleven maybe. Nine months after is they, you know, they were losing the core positions to vanguard. Right. They were they were being relegated to the satellites. And so they came out with the core series. Right. Sort of replicating van Vanguards core products at a lower face, and that was a big game changer. I mean, certainly US MVP which rival. S. S P L v and had a better construction took a lot of assets in low Vall. So they, you know, they, they really made a lot of good strategic moves. I'm fascinated by Larry Fink in two thousand nine when everybody is still stinging them. The GMC from the financial crisis says, no, no. Now's the time we're gonna make a giant purchase and totally reformulates the farm, that is the great all time. I agree if it's an in history. And if you recall, the time, everyone thought, oh my gosh is totally overpaying for everybody. Happy, he's laughing all the way to the Bank. And, and now they are literally the biggest shop in the world. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you were there, two time when the. Growth was really rampant on this. What was that experience? Like so here's how I described in many of us who have been at I shares and have since left and gone on to really wonderful things. It's like going to boot camp for the special forces. New you use that metaphor because I've attended a number of conferences, where you and I have both spoken and that crew of ETF people all seem to have gone through the same baptism of fire is that it is that a fair way. It's absolutely fair. Again, if you have anybody else in your show, who's who was there for a period of time in left, we all say, wonderfully positive things about the experience, and I mean, that Oso genuinely because every single day you are walking into battle. The bar is set so high for everything that you have to achieve and Larry thinks expectations are real. They, they are quite lofty for everybody. And so, you know, you really sharpen your skill set that when you get out, you get out like you are a green beret, or a navy, seal or recall it. What you will. Right. So therefore, you are very higher -able people love to take people from BlackRock now difficult culture because of that. But, you know, I absolutely look back. At that time in my life, as a, a wonderful experience. That's shaped a lot of who I am today. And the proof is how successful they've become whatever they're doing it. Seems to be working. Yeah. I'm Barry ritholtz. You're listening to masters in business on Bloomberg radio. My special guest today is Sharon French. She is the head of beta solutions at Oppenheimer funds where she oversees smart beta products as well as ES g efforts before we move onto what you're currently doing an Oppenheimer. I have one last black rock question. So you're head of private client, and institutions at black rock. What did that work entail on a day-to-day basis? What will you basically in branding and marketing? Or were you frontline dealing with CIO's and investment can be frontline? Good question. Yes. So it so institutional which was also a responsibility of mine at alliancebernstien, so institutional and private. It. Banks, so, you know, we certainly dealt with J P Morgan, private Bank quite a bit. And a lot of the others Wells Fargo at cetera, you know, them well, and so it was it was really a strong product development client fit role at that time, the, the shares, you know, product lineup if you what was growing pretty dramatically, but it was very closely connected and linked to certain channels. So the channel. Exactly. That's act now, they're, they're pure beta, you know, index stuff, you know, the some institutional guys for using his trading vehicles, but they certainly were looking to get away from that specifically within smart beta. I trust was coming up very fast in the in this rearview mirror at the time. So we had to sort of pivot and balance between our, our pure beta market, cap strategies, which is really where they started in two. How do we tilt a particular product more fundamentally, and a lot of the feedback that we were getting for that product development was driven exactly from some of the private banks that we worked with in some of the larger institutions quite interesting? So let's talk about beta solutions, which is kind of a, a mouthful instead of just saying beta. So let me start with the obvious question. What's the difference between beta solutions and basic index? Yeah. Well so and there's a reason why it's called that. So I assumed. There was right. When I was hired to Oppenheimer funds, it was a very deliberate decision by art Steinmetz the CEO to really, you know, commit and go full force into the ET f- business, utilizing smart beta taking a pass on market cap because they're certainly big players who you know corner that market to add value there, even a midsize player that. Right. That's right. And so he sort of wanted to call the unit. So it's a this is a sort of a, a st- a independently run. If you will operating unit within Oppenheimer funds, which gives us the space and the focus and the commitment to sort of build our business alongside of our activists. But he wanted to call it smart beta. And I said, you know, is that really what we're trying to do aren't we aren't we trying to take a beta concept and wrap it in, whatever it makes sense to wrap it in, whether it's an ETF fund, a separate account are you sit? So do shouldn't this be called beta solutions because if we? We are pigeonholing ourselves just into smart beta. And, you know, for the longest time, people really didn't know what smart beta was, it had all all kinds of names. Strategic beta alternative exactly the most descriptive are, are you on the side of the fence. That thinks the free smart beta is a marketing term. I am on that side of the phone. You're, you're not a fan of that. I know cringe every time. Yeah. Yeah. The took you think about it. If beta is just what the markets giving you. What is how how you modifying that with smart? I like alternatively waited right? I think of I think of buying the market, right which is market cap, and certainly favors certain stocks or sectors, which, you know, there's always been concentration risk in that approach some people still Monnet, which is fine. But there's better ways and different choices on how to drive that risk, return profile through alternatively waiting the index. And I really do believe that I remember way back when I think it was Guggenheim who had the equal weighted. That's right. Far as key. Yeah. And that was suddenly. Li like, wow. So you don't have market cap weighted. It was never giants, although it certainly has grown, but it was always home. You mean there's a different way to do this. It's kinda surprising that the smart beta move hadn't begun. Right earlier, because people were clearly thinking about ways to look at indexing that wasn't just cap weighed. That's right. And what I'm really encouraged by berry. Is that if you look at flows in twenty seventeen versus twenty eighteen smart beta of the total pie of ETF. Lows was about twelve percent. Twenty seventeen in two thousand eighteen it was twenty five percent that's giant, it seems to have plateaued somewhat now. Right. Or is it still growing? It's still growing. Yeah. It's still growing slowly some of the. Well, you know, I mean this year I mean, I haven't seen April numbers yet, but it's, it's pretty healthy growth this year, you know, that I'm no that it's over twenty five percent whether it will double. I mean, it's it doubled from two thousand seventeen to twenty eighteen. Whether it will double that's, that's a bit of a stretch. But the point of the matter is, we knew we would get smart beta market share from three places. The first is under performing active and, you know, sort of morning star one and two star rated funds, we certainly saw there, the just the sheer growth of smart beta trying to get our unfair share of that. And that's the growth, I'm talking about from two thousand seventeen to twenty two eighteen doubling and then passive. So as people got more educated about the merits of alternatively waited, some of the, you know, sort of traditional passive buyers started to move towards and understand what they are getting by paying in some cases twenty basis points. More to get a smart beta product they started to move parts of their portfolios, smart beta from having it be all passive. So there were three pillars by which we gathered market share. And we're about five billion today and from our, our start with is about a forty nine percent Kager. So we're pretty happy with she'll she'll, let's since you brought that up. Let. Talk about what Oppenheimers portfolio options. Look like so you have the alternative waiting you're saying doubt, five billion. Yeah, what are the other ETF offerings? They have in either the beta or the yon- beta opportunities. Sure. Sure. So we've twenty equity strategies starting out with revenue weighted. So that's a traditional smart beta, fundamental. It is absolutely. Yeah. And that is due to is small acquisition. We made back at the end of twenty fifteen of revenue shares really kept five of those products and then built that sweet out, and then we started to move into factors, and we've got a, a really nice partnership with footsie Russell. We introduced dynamic multi factor, which were super proud of we were one of the first in pimco, she'll this is an active. No. It's it. Well, interesting. We have it's sort of an active, overlay. So it's a macro signal coming from our global multiasset group, which takes sort of leading economic indicators as well as the sort of the momentum signals from the market and tells us monthly whether we're either in a recovery, and expansion, a contraction or a slowdown, and then we take the five factors, and we wait them depending upon which. Market regime wherein and so based on that you will alter within the ETF the weighting of the xactly. So it is rules based, but it is informed by this active signal, and it has done phenomenal. We launched it in November twenty seventeen. It's at the top of the category. So this is kind of an interesting space coast, people have been talking about making it's ironic. How beta has driven so much of ETF's, but we're talking about making ETF's more dynamic, and more active based on a variety of other inputs. So this one is rules based driven by a series of economic inputs, any other dynamic, or active ETF's current or on the rise. Well, interestingly, so we did file with the SEC for a senior loan product. We've got a very, very well recognized and successful senior loan. Fred extent fixed-income Bob. So, so we were making our foray into the fixed income market place. We also filed for short duration ETF some liquidity enhanced. ATF's and all these are not to a specific index the role dynamic in contain. Well, these are actually active. So what we doing is filing active extinct committee, Fs with some of our key, teams and Oppenheimer funds. And had we not been bought by Invesco, because those products are just sitting on the shelf, those approvals by the SEC are sitting on the shelf. We would have launched fixed income active to sort of build out the allocation short and all the academic research says that, while active may not necessarily create a lot of value in the equity side. It really can create value on fixed income does. Absolutely. And I think, you know firms who are thinking about that should really look at sort of what are some of their core competencies on the fixed income side. Certainly we've seen, you know, gun lock in gross do well, which products when they came out, and they're sort of leading the fixed income activity f space, but we really believe that, that there's something in that for investors, I think the jury's still out on the equity side. Sure. I mean, we saw the big, you know. Precision approval. That was a big development a couple of weeks ago. I'm not familiar with that ETF. What was the in some, the company is preceding, and they, we have been working with the SEC to try to get an approval for a non-transparent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm Barry ritholtz. You're listening to masters in business on Bloomberg radio. My special guest today is Sharon French. She is the head of beta solutions for Oppenheimer funds. She also covers environmental social and governance efforts at the firm. She is a graduate of the worst school of business, and sits on the board of women in ATF's. So, so let's talk about what's going on with women in the space. Tell us a little bit about women in ATF's the board that you're on. And what is that group about what are they looking to accomplish? Yeah, I would love to talk about that. Thank you for the question. So I'm co president with Jillian del signal. J P Morgan of women in ETF's. I have been a global governance committee and board member since the beginning. How long has this been around for just over five years? We just hit our five year anniversary in January. That's. Decent. You know, these days five years for something to survive in grow is not a bit. And I have to tell you, we are growing so fast we're global. So we're in a me as well as Asia Pac and Canada. We've got ten chapters were just about to hit five thousand members globally. And this berry this hit at the heart of what I really think is needed within the CF industry. There are women of Wall Street. There are women hedge funds, but this was really something that we heard a lot as we believe that within financial services there, a lot of women gravitate to the ecosystem, whether you're an authorised -ticipant we have really drilled down with some theories on this, but we would love to get a research partner to prove it. We'll let me man splaine this to you. Okay. Please. We think it's innovation. We think women are very drawn to innovation and evolution there's a lot of women in supporting the Tf industry on the legal side. There's a lot on the trading side. Specially authorized participants at market makers you and I know many of them, sure there are a lot of women leading ETF businesses. There are a lot of women in, in ETF distribution again. Like my co president Jillian del Cigna Rover. J P Morgan. There are also, you know, heads of products. I mean, there, the head of the ET, f- business, P, Morgan also used to be the head of product both at I shares in N, J, P Morgan. So, so there is just a, a huge concentration of women within the industry that we felt a need to get connected. So our mission is to connect support and inspire. So it's really having some of the more senior executives within ATF's meant. For and sponsor and connect the, the women who are joining us who are just starting out in the industry. And we have events all over the world. And by the way, we do encourage men. They're a well over ten percent of our membership is men were hoping to get it up to twenty twenty-five, because we are trying to continue to push forward, the agenda of gender equality, and the diversity of thought and so one of our big things that we do every International Women's Day is ring the bell at every stock exchange around the world. With the SIS the sustainable stock exchange in the UN. And that's a fabulous fabulous high profile way to promote gender equality within the ecosystem. And it's our five year anniversary. So we're going to be doing events both in Hong Kong, San Francisco Chicago, New York and Toronto. So it's funny. You mentioned five years, July will be five years that this show has been around. And when I was first beginning and was able to wrestle up a female guest, one of the questions was always something corny like so what's it like being a gallon a man's industry, and I'm being a little sarcastic? And I'm thrilled that I get to ask a question. So tell us about how your driving the growth of ETF, you can see just over the past five years, how much things have have changed. It's really so different. And I'm curious, do you think it's the fact that the CFC's? Case was so new you did not have that. Sclerotic old boys network. Cemented in place. It was easier to. Breakthrough into that space without the, the usual obstacle. I think that's very valid. I think that's a very big part of it. I mean, look, I, you know, I I've been around for over thirty years, so I did grow up in the environment. Exactly. And, you know, you sort of because of, of that, you know, for me, personally, I've sort of become Teflon coated, because needed to be a rep. But you, you know, now it's much more supportive. I mean, the industry has changed, I do have to say glacial -i. It is better today. But I would have preferred it to be in leaps in strides. But, but, but whether it's, you know, women on Wall Street, the financial women's association hundred women in hedge funds women in ETF's. I mean, there's now organizations that have a genuine interest and continuing to promote women give them the tools and resources in order to advocate for themselves negotiate for a job or a better raise. We have a speakers bureau. So we have a lot of people in media, like you. Tell us about the speakers. Because I introduced them to one of the women who worked for me, who actually speaks all around the world and has a highly sought after speaker blared to Kezner. She started working with the speakers group who, who put together the sail. Yes, yes, thank you. An and look, we're, we're sort of spoon. Feeding the media who are are having a hard time. Finding female speaker. So Elizabeth cash nerd pack set and Linda Zhang with Shays room firm purview. We talked a lot about it. And that's what we do. Women age us, we just get it done. So they came together, and they reached out to everybody and you have to you have to apply, and you have to be qualified in certain topics and media trained in order to be part of our speakers bureau. I think we're up to Linda last set on our Lasco, I think we're up to forty professionals who are, you know, very well, experienced in certain key segments of the market. So we're taking this list, and we're giving it to people like you were giving it to incite ATS. We're giving it to Tom Leyden at ETF trans, we're giving it to whoever. Needs female speakers, to try to get a more diversity of thought an equal representation in the media, I won't I won't mention the group, but there was an article not too long ago about a conference and the, the photo is the panel on diversity, and it's six white dude's pretty. Yeah. Hey, listen. You guys really you got to make a little bit more of an effort than right? Look. I found six white guys. Let's, let's have that we know exactly which one you're talking about that won't happen again. But again, we guys tag them and say, oh, absolutely idiots do absolutely did. It's kind of embarrassing. It is. It's embarrassing on diversity. I might be exaggerating slightly. But the photo I saw was like, what, yeah. So that's got to be the, you know, how to raise money for a hedge fund or something else male dominated type of ah panel that was pretty hilarious. Yeah. And so sometimes you just need to take action. That's what we did. We have a list of forty women and growing. So depending upon the topic we certainly will have three to five women to choose from. That, that makes a whole lot of sense. I'm Barry ritholtz. You're listening to masters in business on Bloomberg radio. My extra special guests this week is Sharon French. She runs the beta solutions group at Oppenheimer funds. Let's talk a little bit about environmental social, and governance investing. What I keep hearing is we're on the leading edge of thirty plus trillion dollar generational wealth transfer. Millennials and women are the people most interested in investing in the environment and social based causes and yet, the pickup has been so slow, what do you make of that? Yeah. And if you look at the numbers in retail, in the US rights, yours have to peel, the onion the adoption has been slow within the what I call the sustainable investing universe to really understand why that is. And by the way, this is the first really trend if you want to call it a trend where the growth outside the US is really driving it. So it's typically there's big pension funds within the Nordics within Europe or Mia, so institutionally, enemy a- driving a lot of the adoption. There is a very high expectation in some cases, a mandate that you have to have a very well thought out ES g process within your portfolio management. Structure. Is it a specific percentage? Or is it just some it's, it's most of the market institutional outside the US? Yes. Of the eight trillion or so that's in that market today, most of his institutional outside the US. So as you know, most of the growth is driven by the US and the adoption happens, usually in a mea I in Asia Europe, Middle East and Africa. Yeah, so you're a pension funds specifically driving deeper in the Nordics is what's driving. The overall global growth of sustainable investing in the US, there has been a, a legacy understanding that we're trying to unwind with SRI so SRI socially responsible. Exactly. But it's been sort of the days of Calvert where it is exclusionary investing. So. Index they screen out gone once within stocks. Exactly whatever it happens. That's exactly right. And therefore they when you carve out big segments of the market in many cases not all but many cases it impacts performance. So it sort of has this negative inertia attached to it that has really evolved. So that's one end of the spectrum. That's right. The middle part is ES g investing or ES g integration, and what that is, is looking at the environmental social, and governance factors that impacts corporation using that within a portfolio manager management process, so they really called the intangibles typically look at the tangible balance-sheet, right? Financial metrics, adding to that the intangibles really tells you and gives you a full picture of how the firm is run. Also exposes you to some potential areas of owner ability or risk so ESPN integration within a portfolio management process is a great risk management. Tool. I've heard a number of people in fact that some of the events, we've both attended together talk about ES G, as being misunderstood that it's really a fundamental screening methods to look for risk and control for it. And for the perfect example was a lot of companies that have no diversity, no women on their boards. Very Little Women management. Oh, and they managed to get caught in the metoo debacle, self self inflicted wounds. Something remarkable happens when just the right elements. Come together ideas with technology data with inspiration investors with solutions. This is what Invesco does every day because they believe the possibilities of life. And investing are greater when we come together from ETF's to mutual funds to alternatives. Let's invest in greater possibilities together Invesco. To learn more, visit Invesco dot com slash together. What a coincidental correlation or apparently not. Right. That, that's a fundamental screen, isn't it? That is absolutely right. The other sort of common ones are, you know, the Volkswagen example, with its emissions issues the diesel cheating scandal that absolutely could have been uncovered if she's start to really dig deeper into some of their governance practices in some cases with some of the oil companies that are have been boat oval to oil spills. So that really all of them though, it can you screen for preventing oils bills screen for practices? Right. So some have more robust practices than others. Right. So would would you exclude a company from your portfolio, or would you overweight, another that you feel is more robust and, and more tightly controlled, so you know the than than the, the further on the spectrum as impact investing? So impact investing is taking a particular cause that you believe, in rainforests in Sudan, carbon emissions. Very sort of narrowly focused and, and waiting the portfolio towards that or buying just that. So, you know, a lot of private equity money is directed towards impact investing. So so, again, if you look at the spectrum, you have SRI and exclusionary on one side, which, again, has been sort of fallen onto favors at affiliated. Well, I mean, I think there's just a better understanding that people believe that there's a better way to do it. Right. So, and then there's the issue integration, which was where a lot of the people in US retail are focused including us, and then there's impact investing, which we actually have a, a company that we bought that does custom municipal portfolios, and we allow them to do an impact overlay on that custom you for equity or fixed income fixed income. Really? So you can actually get green bonds. You can. Yeah. Yeah. Quite quite intriguing. So, so what do you think is going to be required for ES g to take off, or, or we contextualising it the wrong way and it's just going to be something that's implemented into the risk screening approach. Yeah. I actually think it's both. So let's take the ladder. I, I believe that the asset management industry will just become a g just just integrate it like you. No longer an internet company. Everybody uses the end. Yes. There will there are no longer be ES g or non yesterday because millennials and women demographically are driving the desire and the requirement to incorporate ES g screening within their portfolios is a big big driver. The other is data democratization most companies now. Well, there's a variety of different data providers that now collect that information from companies. So now most of the s&p five hundred are reporting to data. Providers on those three measures their environmental practices. There's social practices and their governance practices. So we now have access to all kinds of data to be able to screen on those dimensions. Don't you run into the same sort of issue? We get with hedge funds reporting performance. Well, if it's good you report. And if it's not so good. We're not gonna make that falling the school. Well, so here's the issue. This is this is going to impede the growth. So again, I think to your ladder question, working asset management, I can't say exactly when it will. I think it'll be somewhere between five to ten years from now. You think that's a gradual, just one day, we'll turn around and say, oh, we're all ES j, yes, I do. I do. And there's a variety of people who, who agree with that premise the issues. Today. Are there's no uniformity right. There's a variety of different approaches even the data provider. They go out collecting the data and reporting the data in a variety of different ways. So lack of uniformity and data the second is benchmarking. Right. We always want to try to, especially on the active management's. We always want to find a benchmark. So people are struggling with how to benchmark issue strategies, and, you know, consulting organizations like Mercer who does due diligence on these strategies. They're, they're struggling to answer that question, which is sort of a traditional method of, you know, rating, a particular strategy. So I think it's those two things that are slowing down the growth. But once we, you know, come closer to solving those two, I think the growth will start to be, you know, sort of more profound in US retail. So that's the second part of the question which is will there still be ES g focus phones, and, and who we're going to be the purchases of these? Yeah. I think there will be well, first of all, institutions within the US certainly are following Europe. And so look, I mean, I have to say just looking at the last six months to a year, most of the RFP's. We get requests from formation of a new strategy for institutional clients. They all heaviest g. Questions in there in the portfolio management has to be able to describe specifically their issue process. And so institutions are moving I within the, the US and you know, retail will follow closer behind. Once we figure out these issues that I talked about, which is uniformity and benchmarking. What do you think about the dedicated ES G ETF set of come out? Cones has one full just. Yeah. What, what are the ones that you guys now? So we have ESPN ES GIF, and that's where we're taking our revenue weighted strategy and f-. What's the difference? Some foreign and domestic local fell Oakland. That's right. I think Dave was taken. We went to look for a ticker. So, my, by the way, my theory is you not only need a good investment idea. But a good ticker is just crucial. Absolutely right. It seems like that makes a giant does make a giant difference. It cuts through all the clutter in a lot of this is cutting through the clutter. There's a lot of players who've gotten in. So ESE is foreign itchy. And they're broad, there's a lot out there that are more narrowly based again, specifically as we talked about before based upon, you know Cl climate change climate risk carbon emissions things of that nature. We want to be more broad broad-based. This is revenue weighted ES g strategies. But there are many and there are many mutual funds. We have a mutual fund, where we partnered with pick Tae in its geo environmental n e s g shop in Europe is very their sub advisor to us. We like them a lot actually. And so there are strategies that are coming out in separate account mutual fund any Tf fashion that I think are a good start. You know, again, the institutional clients are looking for more of the separate account in some cases, mutual funds. They're not buying the ES GTS quite yet. There are people like the UN partnering with firms in, developing some of their ES g strategies and there's big pensions like helpers. Zoo partnered with State Street on she. She's they seated she to the tune of CalPERS Cal stirs who's CalPERS? So who did Cal stirs? Sure. I kinda remember them being involved. I know CalPERS see two two hundred and fifty billion. It was it was a big chunk of whatever it was. It was a big chunk of change two hundred fifty billion or million two hundred fifty million. It was it was definitely a two hundred fifty million, which is still not an incentive. Thanks so, so our mutual friend, Dave. Nada is a huge fan of direct index. I'm slowly warming up to the concept. Yeah. And where I see it having so much potential is exactly what you just described the SM as for individuals that want to have an overlay of this. How do you see that space development? So I actually agree with Dave, you know, getting instead of buying the index sort of buying, the, the underlying holdings of the index that creates a great opportunity for tax efficiency tax, harvesting, customization. There are some firms out there. They're very good at it parametric spin around for a while a Perio, there are others. And so, you know, look, people are looking for more of those things, and you have more flexibility and getting access to that through direct indexation. It is a little bit more efficient from a cost perspective here because you're not paying an index provider three to five basis points. So the, the index landscape is changing, as well as fees are getting driven down there as well. People are doing self indexing, their self indexing providers out there who are calculation agents. And so the world of index eight. As it existed, ten years ago is also changing because of self indexing and direct indexation. I agree with Dave. I think it's going to grow quite fascinating. So before we began, we were talking about music. We were you happen to see. My picture tweeted of eagles, guitarist Don Felder have tell you that was a ridiculous amount of fun. I'm sure it was. I'm jealous your yours. My thing, everyone who knows me knows that music is my thing. I don't know how far apart in age we are. We'll talk about that Lewis. You're deceptively. Your heart kin age on like thirty nine is a safe. I'll take I said you start. Well, that would I you said, you've been in the business thirty years? And I said, you started it at age nine so thirty minutes how I came to that. But I'm a class, I listened to a lot of stuff from jazz to classical but really and a lot of punk and reggae. But I'm really classic rock guy. What what's your musical over? Classic rock. Okay. Classic rewind or classic detracts on XM. Exactly. So you're not a coffeehouse sorta actually it depends on the mood. I like house as well. Thank you for bringing that say. Jack Johnson fan. That's a great a great sort of channel. So I've had I don't know how this has worked out. It's been a dumb accident, but I've a series of guitars. So it's been Don. Felder and Steve Miller Miller is Lawrence Juba and John Disraeli. So those are the four guitarists I've had and I, I should reach out to Jack Johnson because I love his rhino. He's agreed. So these things come up completely. Can we talk about X guess so you're a southern sort of routes? Look, I mean, I also have southern rock, but might so I think Derek trucks is one of the most gifted guitarist and, you know, he that's your pick for greatest guitarist. No, he actually he's not. He's his sort of next generation my pick. But my two picks which I can't decide on is Carlos Santana. I love Santana. He's technically a brilliant guitarist and a very good song writer. I don't know if pe- many people would put him up as in the top five because it's usually the hyper technical guys like Joe sat on your go down those raw Montross, or, and of course, you know, we could talk about Clapton or Jim. Well, so that's my. My second is Clapton. I would probably to your point, I'd probably edged Clapton over Santana a little bit. But I gotta tell you Derek trucks is he you know, he he's, he's gonna rival everybody. He's just a little bit younger. I asked by the way, if you like that sort of swampy southern are you familiar with JJ gray in the mole fro? No. Oh, so that's. You have to check out you. It's swampy blues e southern roots rock, and they have a number of great albums, but you can never go wrong with that. I missed JJ gray in the MO five, they're just. Sorta like a southern version of the album, thick freak nece by during a blank on the band's name. But that black keys Kaohsiung that's the first album. And I and I so I asked Henley, let me we can talk about music for hours. But let me wrap this up I ask Henley, who do you think what sort of guitarist you like who do you really appreciate? And he said, I love the triple threats. I love people who are great songwriters Ken sing, and a really good performers. And I knew exactly where he was going to go with that. I thought he was going to say Clapton, but he kinda surprised me and said, well this generation, it's John Mayer. Is that triple threat? And I said, that's because that's he's this generation's our class. That's so so we'll see you again. So I don't forget, I put Derek right up there. Yeah. But, you know, and again, I'm a big Allman brothers fan right now. I mean that's story. You know is has been a bit of a sad story. But of course, I Wayne Allman taught, Don Felder to play slide guitar house, and they're all the music scene from Gainesville. So it was him. And I think it was Stephen stills and Tom petty and was just like a like, wait, why all those people coming from Gainesville Florida, right and enjoyment, on top of that. And of course, you know, Greg just died, which was a very sad day for me. But so, you know, eat a peach was my favorite Allman brothers album. I remember when I was in high school giant, yeah. Yeah. That was a who you listen to today. Give me a newer today after tell you, I'm sort of evolving a little bit, too. You know, sort of this newer country. Right. Such as so, you know, Dirks Bentley Zac, Brown Zac, Brown. I know Dirk spent I don't know that. Yeah, a lot of those guys got a little more of an edge then tradition shoes radio. I mean Kenny Chesney, obviously is terrific. So, you know, I so I'm really pushing myself, I to appreciate others genres rose. And I, I didn't like the old twangy countries. Chet Atkins sort of, well, he was a brilliant guitarist, but the I know exactly. My dog died. My truck stole me that, so there's a really do you ever, we were talking about XM satellite before. Do you have a play with Pandora, I that's my actually music of choice. I've Sonos in my home. So do I and I go to Pandora? So what I love about Pandora, is if you want to discover something new, like you take those three newer country. Right. Create a channel call whatever you want new country and seed it with five songs that you like and it's really great for music discovery. I'm always hearing things. Wow. What's that? I haven't heard that. So it's a fun thing to play with. That's right. Yeah. All right back to back to eat the sorry to drag you back. Thank you said, I could talk music all day long say same here. It's, it's just fascinating. I anything aside from country rock and classic rock deals in jazz reggae. I do I listened to both but I have to say, my, my world is really dominated by those two today. But I, I used to listen to a lot more classical, then I do today of always listen to jazz miles Davis is my hero, really miles Davis my hero for not. I always want people who are like your your jazz head. What, what should I listen to Sean, listen to miles Davis, not the most accessible, always say start start? Slow walk before you run. Like who is your walk slow person? Gerry mulligan like Coltrane I build a little further out halfway between even felonious monk or Paul Desmond's. You can't. That's really totally accessible, very easy for most people. If you, if you listen to, like time out or so there, there's a way to ease into jazz. Yeah. But if you start with bitches brew or, you know, that's a tough like on of starting out and rock music by staring sap. Yeah. It's like Jethro Tull. Yeah. Is, you know you can listen. I you know, act long or locomotive breath yet, that's straightforward rock and roll. But it's hard to find outside of Joe's garage. It's hard to find Zappa song that you could just slide, right? Into and say I'm interested in rock music, play something for me. Because although since we you mentioned some of your favorite Qataris. If you ever have a chance, get zap album, shut up and play your guitar. Why are guitar? Okay. It's just three discs of him doing leads. Okay. And he's amazing people. Don't realize what a spectacular musician. I didn't. And if I can just make one plug for, for female short a modern day, Bonnie Raitt is Derek trucks, wife, Susan Tedeschi. I know the name of it. They've aband- Tedeschi trucks, you would not know the difference. I think she's got more soul Bonnie rate as a ton of soul. But if if you can believe it Susan Tedeschi, even has more soul than Bonnie. Great. So I would I, I need to make my female plug before we move on. All right. Let last female guitarist reference, go to YouTube. I can't remember the girl's name and I say, girl, because she's like eleven there, this girl on YouTube, who just shreds. It's unbelievable this probably multiple people in that age group who are just spectacular guitars. And it's mind blowing. You just okay. I'll send you some links. Okay. Some of them are just like what? All right. So so now now back to eat drag yourself away from us as well. Because, you know, this is a conversation over beer. The one question I forgot to ask you during the broadcast portion that I meant to ask is. As you began your career in nineteen eighty-seven. Right. What was sock market crash? Yeah. What was that? Like when you account. And by the way, there are a few people who I know of David Rosenberg is one, and I'm turning member, who the other person was who literally begin their career that fall and Ben right into the foot started it, and I think at the end of may or June. But I certainly look, I mean it was it was a great learning experience for me, right? I mean I, I am I right. It was a five hundred points. It was, you know, percentage wise it was big three percents. I'm me two point eight percent something like that. I think it was six hundred and something points. But it's easy enough. I don't know why five hundred six in my mind, but which we call today, a Tuesday. Yeah. Right. Exactly. That's why that's why I brought it up. It's, it's sort of interesting to look back and you know it's a blip in today's world. But, but look, so I wasn't really tied to the market at that time. Remember as a Chase Manhattan Bank and has. All these cost studies, I still was domestic at this time. I wasn't yet in Europe. Correct. Five hundred and eight points in Q. I don't know why that stuck in my head. But, you know, I was there. So, you know, these things are important. And so it was a great learning experience for me. I was still learning about the market. Right. And so being Chase Manhattan Bank. You know, took ahead sick of some exposure. So they obviously took a hit. But recovered, I think Don Boudreaux was the, the CEO or president at the time. But so, you know, there was a lot to learn in terms of the, you know how the market factors into sort of the, you know, the, the capital markets, and what a driver they are, and why that happened and how to avoid it and how to put, you know, stops in place by the new York Stock Exchange. And so I was young and you know what behind the ears as they say. And so I was just a great learning experience for me. Don Boudreaux wasn't name familiar. Is is he still around in publishing? He's been retired. So you, you looked at it as a learning experience. I didn't have any personal exposure. I had no money, right? It didn't affect goes to the best crashes -actly now the next one I was in, by the way, I was in grad school, and I watched it with such clinical adaption detachment. It was like, oh, that seems to be kind of interesting. I was fascinated thankfully was at a place where I could learn more about it. And that was really my first like out you wanted when you when you accidentally touch a burner on the it was sort of, like, the, you know, learning about the capital markets by being stung by it. But thankfully, it didn't affect me. How two thousand how does that? Leave a me. Yes. And soda, two thousand I've obviously, two thousand it was the worst. But that was the best, one of all two thousand left a Mark. Yeah. Yeah. So two thousand eight was fabulous learning experience describe it as that because it was we'll, we'll take that off. Mike, I found that to be of all the market crashes I lived through the one that was most fast. Yeah. No, it certainly was. There's millions of stories that have come out of that, when shaped, it's shaped, you know, absolutely. You alluded to this earlier, let me circle back to that. My pets theory is all of the, the scandals the analysts candle, the IPO spin. All those things kinda lead mom and pop to say, you know, this Wall Street thing is, you know, I'm just going to give the money to vanguard and be done. I kind of felt like the cherry on that cake was the oh, eight oh nine crash, but you even took it further. You said this really drove people into passive explain. Why only absolutely, you know, part of it is the they sort of didn't want to deal with it anymore. Just let me let me just give it to an index. Let me give my money index. They didn't trust the institutions that were running their money in a lot of cases especially the ones that got bailed out. Pets the thought process. Right. Right. And so, I think it, it just shocked people people woke up. I think predisposed, they dabbled in ETF's post two thousand eight two thousand nine when, when we finally recovered, I think they made it a prominent part of their portfolio construction and part of it, I think was a risk mitigation at least from what they understood to be more of a risk mitigation, because of know, look at the time I was at alliancebernstien Bernstein part of alliancebernstien deep value. And, you know, the Bernstein managers specifically loose Andrews is an investor himself the CEO at the time they rode financial services down all the way to the bottom because they were looking for that. You know, they talk about the sustainability of earnings with growth companies, and they talk about the recover ability of earnings with, with value companies, and so, you know, fundamental active managers, I think, at the time we're just riding the wave to see if they can pick up some assets at the cheap and. It was a very very tough rides for a lot of investors. So I think part of it was trust. I think a lot of it was risk. Mitigation. Coin interesting. So again, looking at the lack of faith in the institutions is that something that eventually comes back or is that a permanent scar and people change their behavior for generation? Yeah, yeah. No, I think ten years later, I think it has bouncing back. And I think part of it is, you know, government led because of everything they've put in place in terms of safeguards, meaning the, the regulatory environment or the Federal Reserve environment. I think the regulatory environment in terms of the requirements that they have. So they forced some of it, and I think, CEO's, I mean, now on the executive committees of organizations, whether it's a Bank or asset managers, the chief risk officer reports to the CEO, and that wasn't a position than necessarily exist. It didn't so and I agree with that, right? I mean, the general counsel reports is CEO. Why shouldn't the chief risk officers? It's we are stewards of our clients capitals. We are fiduciaries, we need to take that particular function. Seriously? And so, you know, whether it's did the different governance structures for running an ETF business or fundamental active business. I think whether it was regulatory, you know, pushed or forced upon or firms just taking this more seriously and it becoming a key role of the CEO. I think that we certainly those institutions are starting to earn back trust ten years later. Run the risk when we elevate the chief risk officer to that cease wheat with the CEOs ear of stifling innovation or making companies risk averse. Sure, no one. I think that's a great question. And I think it has to. And we, we talk about this a lot. How are funds that I think, thankfully with struck the balance because the portfolio management teams on the fundamental active side. Are you know there's a little bit of a push poll there? Right. So our chief investment officer Christian Mamani. You know, he, he works very, very closely with our chief risk officer on behalf of making sure that we don't do just that, that we give the prudent degree of freedom. Now, how do you define prudent degree of freedom? No leverage. That's how I define. And, you know, I mean, really it's so much easier to get into trouble when you're running forty two one there, if you're putting out ETF's that are more interesting in, in the way they're assembled and built in. They're not relying on a tunnel ever. Ridge, there's really very modest risk then. Right. The product works, or it, doesn't it finds an audience or a dozen it accumulates assets or it doesn't, but none of you ATF's are ever going to blow up up in. That's, that's a non would never play. We would never say play that game. But that that was an our that was not our space. And I agree with you. It's tough. I don't think investors understand it. I don't think they understand the impact of the leverage. They're taking on. It's easy. If you're fifty to one and you drop to percents, you're gone. You're right, like wait a two percent. Drop wipes me out. Oh, I don't want leverage. That's bad thing. And I think everybody that was the one big takeaway, I thought everybody learned from, from the financial crisis. But you're saying risk is now thought of a little more differently at financial institutions. Absolutely. And again, a part of it is because they knew they needed to, to build back trust with clients. I mean again back to the, you know, in the very beginning of the RPO had asked us about their risk management process. Whether it's the firm over. Paul from a centralized perspective. Whether portfolio management, specifically, you've got to articulate your risk management process, and we have that in running our rules, based strategies we, we have that in there as well. Right. And index providers have that as well. So it's an important part of the story, you know, again, we are stewards of capital, and we are new shares and we need to take that role. Seriously to just say the least the dominance in the F space by, I almost want to say trilogy, but really, it's vanguard block. Yeah. Yeah. State Street is is up there. But it the two big ones are really all the muscle in the space. How is it that this sector has evolved where it such a? Uneven distribution, a winner, take all distribution. I mean, look, you know, those three firms got started way before everybody else says, you know, SBY's over twenty five years. So I mean there there, there is there is a vantage. I absolutely so part of it is that, you know, they certainly won over the early adopters of ETF specifically, and they grew their business for the first decade so they just had a giant headstart in everybody else's playing catch up. I mean there's well and then the players that got in the market after them. I have a belief said, many of them that, you know, we actually can evolve our fundamental active franchise weekend, do enhanced index, we can do active ETF, so they sort of bypassed, the passive to go to alternatively rated or active, something more active, and so there's not a lot of unless you are putting out. These vehicles that are for free that you use to allocate internally within your organization, whether you're using them to build model portfolios and charging, and overlay fee, people aren't jumping on the passive bandwagon, by which State Street vanguard nicer got a very strong early start to so and most of the pie of the flows, every single year ago to that. So there are people who are dabbling around the edges to try to offer a more sort of, you know, fully built out sweet to their clients, but nobody has the scale or can buy or build a scare in a short period of time where they can even make a dent in the market share that, that those three organizations have it. I do believe a lot of it was the headstart that they got. But makes sense before it gets on my favorite questions is one of the question I wanted to ask you about. So you're at F squared when they run into the little difficulties. What was your role? And what was your reaction when you heard about what was happening elsewhere? Yeah. So that. It was a big segment of the market, as you recall, ETF strategist segment, which is defined by, you know, model portfolios were at least fifty percent or more has to be within ATF's. It grew to over one hundred billion actually square was a big client of shares. So that's how I knew them. They probably gave I shares directed sixty eight billion a year that number might be slightly off. But anyway, so I they had outsourced everything, and they wanted to build their own discretionary business internally, so as hired as the president of f square capital, and I had to build our, our trading system, higher head trader put in place, a portfolio management system, with client service group, assembly client service group, sales to talk to Wells Fargo's separate account platform business so built that. Lots of moving parts. It was really fun. We grew to almost thirty billion, but the SEC came in, in the summer of hope I get this right summer twenty thirteen to do a routine audit and had discovered that the track record. We remarketing this is really important. The trek remarketing was went back to two thousand one. The time period in question was two thousand and eight back to two thousand one in two thousand and eight the CEO of squared bought a signal from a firm and was told that the signal was run against live client money, therefore, was a live signal two thousand eight four word that was now in the in the domain of squared. And they ran that money that signal against live, CLYDE money in live client portfolios. It was Gibbs compliant. It was audited by a big accounting firm. So the SEC had no issue with the tracker from two thousand eight Ford that was valuable based on the purchase, and it was represented that's the crux of the matter. So, you know, just yeah, so there is a disagreement certainly, the CEO of have squared continue to fight that, that it was misrepresented, but the does with the SEC did, I mean they get trade blotters, and they get everything they need to do to subpoena people, and get to the heart of the matter. Even if it is, if it's misrepresented to you. You represented that's thing and hang their hat on its. Hey, you relied on someone who lied to you your bet. Right. So they should have done deeper, due diligence, or whatever theory is so unfortunately, you know, we still believe to this day that what we were doing in the way in which we were doing it, which was the office sector products was a prudent way to run a portfolio client certainly agreed with that as we grew very quickly. However, once they slapped the fine on, and they got rid of our CEO and sort of banned him from the industry. And one of the board members came off of the board to be the interim CEO. We really needed to kind of wine, the firm, down much damage done. I was going to say is that recoverable even if it's an innocent mistake, I know have any information whether it is or isn't. Yeah, but when the SEC drops that sort of hammer, right? Is there anything that could be done to save a company that point or is it just all bets are off? You know, look, so to your point Barry, all two hundred and -ployees approximate, two hundred police where completely innocent thankfully, the industry recognized that and gave everybody a free option and everybody is has gone on to be into really great jobs at other firms. But I think what happened is the trust was just eroded. Sure, but from the clients, so clients were starting to pull money, and it was, it was too difficult to save. And so we what we did is, we hired a banker to do an asset person agreement. So sell the remaining assets off, and you know, we just it was it was too difficult. So, you know, look, I what I learned through that process was, I mean, it was excruciating. Certainly sure, but, you know, managing through crisis and trying to, you know, keep everybody on the boat until such time that you gotta get everybody safely off the boat and just being really open and honest with clients. I mean, clients would take me out to dinner. And say what really happened and I had to say them, I actually have no idea. I mean I wasn't here I joined in two thousand thirteen. But again be be seek solace knowing that two thousand and eight Ford since square it's been running your money. It's been it's been done in, in a in a prudent way. So it was tough. But yeah, it's, it's certainly the most excruciating chapter of my career. I it's for two to sit everybody below the CEO managed to. But he's doing great without being a Blackmore now. Now, everybody understands it, now, it was sort of isolated to the CEO amazing. So let's jump to our favorite questions. These are the things I asked all of our guests. Let's start out with what was the first car you ever owned your making model, ha ha nineteen seventy four Volkswagen superbeet, oh, really? I had a super beautiful Eileen destructible are absolutely had three hundred thousand miles on line. I had over two hundred sixty eight not seventy four is a SuperBeets seventy four by then they had brakes and air conditioning. I didn't have any of that was light blue which I had a light blue one also white bug, and then a, a light blue superbeet will the super Beatle for about six months. I was broke and did not have a battery, and I would start park on a hill and just drop the clutch. And that's how I would start the car. It's literally so, so I had no heat. So that was tough. But they were pretty pretty in destruct absolately until the floorboards rusted out in the became like a Flintstone. One of those. Yeah. So tell us the most important thing, people don't know about Sharon French. It was funny with the word important. I mean, the most important thing in my life, for sure. Is that I'm a mom, and, but I think most people no. Yes. Yes. I think most people know that what else is important. I mean some things people don't know. I don't how important is I, I have a titanium hip, so a lot of people call me, the biotic woman when you go through airport security. Does that set stuff? I'll sit does I have to. I have to do the walk through thing where you hold your arms, your head machine that is the only noninvasive, imaging technology that has not been FDA approved, and you'll notice when they set the button lean back lean lean away from it because they know that stuff is going to kill them. So I'm I'm the beauty of TSA pre or even better clear. Right. Is that you don't have to do the naked machine which does because if my hip and car to my? My in my wallet. That shows the hip, I have a Stryker hip and my doctor's name and everything I have an interest, but I actually just thinking about it. And this could set up a whole this could set off a whole nother series of questions. An important fact about me that nobody knows that. I just found out on it's a little bit of a family controversy family of origin. Mike. My five brothers and sisters are six of us is I did twenty three and me and my whole life. I thought I was a pure bred Irish right? Woman, apparently not. I am twenty five percent oschkenat's e ju-. Really? Yes. That's fascinating. That's fascinating. So we had an unbelievable. You know, family conversation over thanksgiving, and made my mother. Unfortunately, my dad has passed, but we made my mother, take the test, and she surprisingly is fifty percent. One of her parents has to be a hundred percent right. Oh, you know, she doesn't know which she doesn't, they're both deceased, but we, we think, is my grandfather, but, you know, somebody went astray, or this is post World War Two or maybe not. So they were born in the after the war pizza. Stop. Some people. They were born in nineteen. Oh my grandparents were born in nineteen o five six around there. So anyway, so that's an important fact that quite frankly, I didn't even know until recently if you wanna have some fun, Google oschkenat's e Jewish Nobel recipients. It's there's just fastly disproportionate another know what that's about. But it's kinda it's kind of fast. I just went to the Nobel museum in Stockholm the fault was, it was fabulous. I match. Yeah, I learned a lot. Tell us about some of your early mentors who he helped shape, your career. Yes. Yes. So. Bob Shulman Robert Schulman. So Hugh is an executive at the Hutton, Shearson Lehman Brothers, I think he left before the Smith Barney acquisition to become president, and CEO of Tremont advisors, but he was a very, very shrewd tough boss. He had I had moved into a number of different positions throughout my decade at that organization, and really, really tough Renton ran a number of different business units. New product development. He actually was one of the early executives who ran the Smith Barney consulting group, which was ultimately sold off, too. I think Bank of New York Mellon, and he was tough as nails. And so the reason we still meet for coffee and, and lunch today. He's retired. But he was he was instrumental to me because he was so tough. I didn't need coddling. I need. To understand how to be better and do better and held he gave me all kinds of runway. And so my reputation today is sort of somebody who can, you know, fixer, right? I was a question. I didn't get you your reputation is something's messed up censure. She'll fix it. Yeah. Well, and it's and it's fixing and growing or doing the diagnostic in order to remove the obstacle for growth. I mean, I, I hope that at some point people see me as somebody who drives profitable growth, but that was Bob. And that was that is who gave me those early, you know, sort of runways and taught me how to go at the heart of the issue, and keep running harder keep running stronger. I mean, I certainly he wasn't a lot of people are afraid of him. So I wouldn't say that he was the mentor in my life who taught me how to socialize issues and had to get the right key. Stakeholders involved and get their buy in that came later, I had a female mentor two lines Bernstein, I had a male. Mentor, also alliancebernstien I think helped me along in that regard as well. So I'm a big believer in mentors. I'm a big believer in sponsorship. An I have mentored, a ton of mostly women in my career, which I continue to do. And I really believe in, because at this stage of my career very to me it's all about paying it forward. I mean, I, I still have a lot more to accomplish. But it's all about inspiring the next generation, which I started a, a unit called university outreach within women in ETF's, which is actually going to universities, at the undergraduate level, and mentoring in them, and raising their awareness around asset management and ETF specifically because a lot of a lot of women who are going into business have nowhere to go from there and businesses hard for women financial services is still pretty difficult. It's getting better. But I, I really want to inspire the next generation out there undergraduate level, and then mentor younger females, who are incredibly smart, and promise. Within this industry. What about investors who influence the way you look at assets markets investment when I was young, it was Bill sharpen, Harry Markowitz? A lot worse than both of them. Yes. Nine hundred sixty two so the only startup I did in my career was empower. That's when I left, my wealth management, brokerage experience in New York and moved to San Francisco right after AO and public in one thousand nine hundred eighty six remember that, that really started the whole internet plays? And so that startup experience was was really, really strong. And we partnered with Harry Markowitz, our competition with Financial Engines, who partners with Bill Sharpe. I mean, more recently over the cut that was probably my second decade third decade was more femme on French at the university of Chicago. And a lot of their factor work. I really do believe in the persistence of factors as more precise way to get at the key drivers of return, gene at Chicago. I think Kenny dormant. Yes. Exactly. Talk school. That's right. That's exactly. That's quite interesting. Everybody's favorite question. What are some of you favorite books be? They fiction non fiction investing related or whatever. Yeah. So I'm I really love to learn about people. So I love reading biographies. And so I the one I just read was, I love capitalism by Ken Langone. Oh, really, it was fabulous really interesting, albeit crusty guy. I mean he's sort of like a classic. Komo generally had the book re he was scrappy, scrappy. That's the better word ragging crusty scrap scrappy. I could not put it down. I read it in three days, home depot's just amazing. So many other things depot. Absolutely. I mean he put capital together on Wall Street. That's what he did. He was scrappy he was fearless. He was amazing. So anyway. So I just read Michelle Obama's book, which I thought was great becoming also read that one in three days. Katherine Hepburn, certainly Michael Bloomberg. I'm a join Catherine Hepburn. Yeah. I just biography. Biography, who, who wrote that. And gosh, you're testing me. I just I just a dozen Katherine Hepburn biography. Yes. I don't remember. Barium sorry, Email to me edit to the list go, but even an Keller. I mean you know, I mean I eat. So I'm fascinated by people. So, my, my, my favorite books are actually reading the biography, biography channel. I love to listen to. I mean, I certainly have read a lot about the Grateful Dead going back to music, you know, Jerry Garcia, Phil Collins. So I typically read that's, that's a weird drugs to position the dead into Phil. I've got an eclectic, you know, let's go back to the staff. Genesis and Peter Gabriel. I should not that I not that I mind a Supertramp Genesis that hold. That was high school for me. That was my freshman year in college breakfast. All right, good. So you're older than me. So what do you tell us about a time? You failed and what you learn from the experience are there any other books before we jumped down. That's. That's certainly I read other things other than just biographies. But I think that's the thought I'd like to leave you with. Okay. So let's discuss time you failed business or not. And what you learn from the experience. Kosh. Okay. So it it, it's sort of business and personal at the same time. So during that period of time where I was in San Francisco, where I was working for empower, and we were we were growing fast again. Harvard Business case study loved it. We ended up selling the business to MorningStar ultimately in two thousand one but I was running global sales. I was one of you know, I was on the management team ploy fifth member of the management team. And we had built our business domestically and I'm starting to establish our business globally. So we set up a I was going back and forth from San Francisco to Tokyo, and San Francisco to London put up joint ventures in London to grow that and build a subsidiary bricks mortar in sorry. In Asia, we did joint ventures. London, we've put up acidity. We had a we were finalised for so Mizuko really came together in two thousand one his IBJ Industrial Bank of Japan, date, Chicago, DKB, and Fuji Bank. Those three individual banks came together to form zoo, while. They were forming. They were looking for online investment advisory services, we were as one of many things on this platform. They're building, we were a finalist. There was two of us at that time I was pregnant with my daughter very pregnant well, started out, not so pregnant, but over the course of eight months. I Dutch ended. Progression, and I needed to. And as if you understand the Japanese culture, they are very much into relationships. Right. Not that we are in the US, but even more so much deeper. So when you start with them, you have to end with them or you might as well not compete. And so I was the one who had to fly to Tokyo to do this finalist presentation. And I was eight months. Yeah. Right. So PS Fords. The doctor's note bet idea. I remember at the time. My husband and my son was to saying, you know, if you go you don't get it. We will not be here. When you get back to you, understand that when you fly to New York or London, or New York, you're flying over land. So if you go into labor you have to land the plane in Atlanta. Read. That's right. So stupid me. I went thankfully, the, the, the story ends. Well, we did win the business and I didn't go into labor, but I went into labor prematurely two weeks after I got back and my daughter was fine. She was six pounds, my husband, and little boy, was we're still there, although he didn't talk to me for the following month. But the lesson learned and berry, I said that I mentor people in women, and I in many of the things I sent him is look, avoid the mistakes, I made what was I thinking our number one priority ourselves or hells in our family. That was the stupidest thing I ever did. I put my life at risk, and my unborn child's life. It whisk. Wow. Like stupid the that's that's pretty bad. That's a horrifying horrifying story. I get it worked out. But still. Yeah, what do you do for fun? What I do for fun. Listen to music. Look. I'm very sporty as you say. So I, I used to run, but now have a new hip, so can't do that anymore. But I do yoga. I do you know stand up paddle, boarding I ski I, I, you know, snorkel I- paraglider I, I do anything I don't say no to anything. I don't scuba dive. I've got to get my over my fear of scuba diving but I'm very sporty. So, you know I'll I'll be on a softball team. Or I'll, you know, I'll I'll always say guess if anybody want my son to just jumped out of a plane. I don't know if I'm going to do that. But the risk reward on that one. Joe our last questions because we have to wrap what sort of advice, would you give any millennial who was thinking of going into a career in finance? So look, it's interesting millennials unit grew up with the mutual fund in the eighties. Millennials are growing up with ETF's, right? And they're gloat growing up with digital advice. So one of the things I like about that is, it's, it's a lot of the burden of that falls on their shoulders in terms of how they learn to, you know, think about portfolio construction. So, I think data and I mean, look, we're sitting at Bloomberg, this is the epicenter of data and intelligence. I am big into how the financial world meets the technology world. So I certainly my passion and my love deep down is asset management, but I love the intersection of finance and technology. So I certainly would, you know, advise them in that direction and our final question. What is it that, you know, about the world of investing today, that you wish you knew thirty years ago when you first? Started. I wish I understood risk a little bit more. You know, I sort of thought trees grew to the sky back then, and, you know, I think I was a little bit idealistic at that time. So I'm I'm I've, I've been sobered, and I've been burned up in three market corrections that are pretty significant eighty-seven two thousand two thousand one and two thousand eight as well as market timing scandals and all the things you mentioned. So, you know, I'm I'm much more practical now much more pragmatic. And I wish I knew that back, then I think a lot of the younger generation, especially millennials are super idealistic, but having been through what I've been through throughout my career, you know, I wish I learned more earlier on about, you know, managing risk better. Really interesting answer we have been speaking with Sharon French. She is the head of beta solutions at Oppenheimer funds, if you enjoy this conversation. Well, be sure and check it up. Ally tunes and look up or down an inch way you can see any of the other two hundred fifty or so such conversations. We've had previously, you can find that at I tunes Stitcher overcast, Bloomberg dot com. We love your comments feedback in suggestions. Write to us at M I B podcasts at Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss if I did not thank the crack staff that helps put together these conversations each week Medina. Parwana is our audio engineer slash producer, a tika Val. Brun is our project director, Michael Boyle is our Booker. Michael bat, Nick is our head of research. I'm Barry ritholtz. You're listening to masters in business on Bloomberg radio. The masters in business podcasts. Is brought to you by Invesco every day at Invesco. We bring together ideas with technology data with inspiration and investors with solutions. Let's invest in greater possibilities together. Find out more at Invesco dot com slash together.

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Phillip Stutts

Dr. Drew Podcast

58:52 min | Last month

Phillip Stutts

"Thanks for listening to the doctor. Drew podcast on podcast. One look. Staying healthy isn't easy watching your diet hitting the gym avoiding stress. But a good night's rest helps boost your overall health and wellness and it couldn't be easier. The new sleep number three sixty smart bet is the only bad. That effortlessly adjusts in response to both of you the result you wake up ready for anything. Proven quality sleep is life changing sleep and now the new queen sleep number three sixty p five. Smart bet is only seventeen ninety nine. Save six hundred dollars. Only for a limited time to learn more go to sleepnumber dot com nissan. Believes you deserve a car that thrills so we have to ask. Does your car thrill you. When you hit the pedal do you get something back. A chill in your spine goosebumps on your goosebumps when you take off to your fingers. Tighten around the steering wheel. Does your heartbeat in your stomach in your breath. Catching your chest does driving. Make you feel alive because it should but if you thrilling ours will. This is the new seven years ago. College wrestler damian heard disappeared from a party in gunnison colorado win how and why he left or questions. I need your help to understand. Nobody's hereford disappeared from cold-case productions and podcast one final days on earth. The life and death of damian hurt. i'm your host claire. Animal join me april twentieth for the season premiere. Hey everyone welcome to the doctor who podcast we do appreciate you checking us out and sporting the people that support us. Don't forget to head to. Dr drew dot com the the streaming. Show me over. Will your mom's house come on genes. Come on mommy's head over there. It's the after dark and again The people that we support we try to suck very carefully and so we stand by what they're doing. Please support them so we can keep doing this show. Today it is phil stutz return visit. It's a triumphant return fail. I would say he's got a new book. The book is the undefeated marketing system to grow your business and build your audience using a secret. Formula that elects presidents. it's available now on amazon launch. This week you did an interview Well there's all kinds of stuff going on and we'll talk about a minute win. Big media dot com where you can find Some of his consumer studies and phillips website. Himself is philip to elle's starts to u. t. t. s. dot com previous books. Fire them now. The seven live digital markers cell and the truth about political strategies that help businesses when phil. Welcome back dr drew. I'm i think. I'm trying to compete with ryan holiday on the number of except i didn't launch your interest in marketing. I actually launched right holidays interest in stoicism. I had heard the interviews. You've had with him. Yes oh by the way. I live in this little beach town in the in the panhandle of florida. I'm used to come down here for spring. Break back in the nineties and holiday just bought are bought a couple of years ago house just in this in this neck of the woods so then so that's so interesting but let me let me let me whittled down this. You used to come down here on spring break statement one time one time role and i were dragged down there by mtv. They set up a big stage on the beach outside between the two big clubs that are down there on the beach. On the panhandle spinnaker would not have come up with those names in a million years but they were quite impressive And we have this huge stage and our guest. Gary you will love this. Our guest mike myers and we were backstage and he was going. Yeah i've got this crazy movie coming out. It's it's about this guy. He's like a secret agent sort of thinks he's cool. Drives this this jaguar with a british flag. We could not understand what the efi talking about. We could not figure it out. He tried that ten. Wade's explain what austin powers was. He couldn't do it. It's so interesting i mean. Could you explain that to someone who had never what's interesting about it. It's iconic now. You'd never dream of it. You just say austin powers. Then before you'd ever seen austin powers him trying to the to explain an international man of mystery who wasn't really that but he thought he was but he kind of was okay mic. Whatever saying okay and good luck with that buddy. Yeah surely huge it and it's like when we had okay i'm gonna blank her name. She was also in a powers film on the with me. And adam she plays but hurley blonde. Thin blonde helped me. She's one in the town with the shadows with that on an austin powers thing Any event she will. He'll come up within a second She was sitting here going yeah. I'm doing a new film She had never even heard of before and and she goes. Yeah it's It's about the porn anthony rogers. Now it's about the porn industry in the seventies. We're roller skates the whole time. It's stars burt. Reynolds and mark mark's brother. We're like what what what goes. Who is your agent. You need a new agent. It's her name's gotta to me in a second. Just think roller girl. Just look up early girl in gram heather graham and adam because you need an agent who burt reynolds in a movement. Why are you. What the hell. And that's adams now favorite movie and we really did. He did about ten minutes on you. You gotta get a new age of this ridiculous roller girl. Porn industry of the seventies is going to be disaster. Isn't that funny but anyway so that kind of dovetails into the marketing systems in that we. Sometimes you don't see things that are going to be well received until they're out there. Yeah and you know what what i really tried to develop underst- its first of all. The book is a political modern day. Book about how political campaigns have been run since two thousand. And i go through both bush. Victories obama's victories trump's win and then biden's win And so i kind of lay out how they did it and how from the political from the political campaign standpoint. It's created probably the most innovative marketing in the world. Because we have this thing about election day which is unavoidable deadline. We have winners and losers. And and then i said man you know i wonder if i could apply this to businesses over the last half decade. I have done that. We had incredible results in its five-step sort of formula that we used to elect presidents right. So i've been three winning presidential campaigns and One thousand four hundred and seven election wins overall over the last twenty five years out of was that out of how many oh jeez i didn't count that but more than i lost all right but but the point is that I wanted to lay out. This sort of historical about political campaigns. Had been one a lot of them. I was a part of and then I wanted to show businesses that in this crazy world that we live on where by the way There's a book called contagious by gender burger. The wharton school of business and he has this quote now or the study out that says we are seeing up to ten thousand ads per day. Offline and online. And so what i'm trying to do is like if you're competing with ten thousand ads right. You're not competing with if you're a bike seller you're not competing with other bikes shoe-seller online foodsellers Tire sellers like you're competing is everybody. And there's a unique formula that we've utilized to win presidential races that businesses can use and every business that we worked with is done it has grown their bottom line and exploded with sales and lay out the last thing. I'll say in the but if you wanna textbook. This is not your book. This book is chock full of nothing but stories. I teach the lessons through. Come political war stories campaign stories and i tell it also through business case studies stories. And it's very very very entertaining. Are you gonna give us those five steps or do we have to read the book go. No i'm happy to give you the five step one. I lay it out how it works in politics. I'll quickly run through our works and business. So in politics the candidate it sits down with me and inevitably they asked me or asked them sorry You know let's say they want to run for governor and they sit down and run for governor. Greg what do you believe in what are your what policy do. Let's do it with me right now. Okay governor okay good So california drew. What are your top policy issues The fact that the legislature is destroying the state the laws preventing the ability to help homelessness and the fiscal mismanagement that could and the excessive powers of unions the lack of lack of our people. You value that. If the people who have no power in the if you and i were to get together and i'm not saying we have to get together and you and i said we're going to spend an hour and i want you to map out all of these issues right inevitably. You'd probably come up with about ten to twenty different things that you're passionate about you. Mean within each of those categories or beyond those categories beyond this guy could be economic could be environmental could be covert related. You know you could just keep going down the list. The great drew. Thank you for doing that. Give me a little time to come back to you. What i would do is and i'm going to give you a very elementary explanation. But for the sake of timing and of this podcast. This is how we do it. I would go take what's called. A benchmark survey benchmark survey is not the kind of polls you see and by the way. I'm going to pull a little bit on the curtain back on how it all works. It's not what you see on cnn or fox news where they go you know gavin newsom. His up gavin newsom as down. I don't care about the horse race. I'd never really care about horse race. What i care about is what the voters think. What i would do is i would take the ten to twenty issue. You said where your top priorities. And i go poll voters and i would eventually understand and this happens every single time we run a race we would find two or three issues that are so passionate in the voters minds that they would cross party lines. That is within the ones. I within your list. Nothing else your list. But i would find inevitably. You'll say fiscal well. If i choose. And i found the voters cared about. But it's not that big of a deal i'd say okay. Here's the thing we're going to find the top two issues that voters care about to such a high extreme. And you have a lineman with them. Because they're you care about. And i would tell you that's how we're going to run your campaign on those two issues. You may occasionally talk about the other issues but when we talk about running ads when we're talking about running a rural marketing campaign for for candidacy. Then i'm only to. The brain can only handle so much information you try to go out and explain ten to twenty. She's no one's going to pay attention to you. You focus in on the two. She's daycare about but it's also the top issues you care about. What trump did america. I bumped said absolutely so once. We find those two issues. Where you have alignment with the voters. The voters care about those issues so much that you will win the race if you run on them the next to do is build out step two. Which is i'm going to build a strategic plan for you to run your campaign on those issues. Hold on i want. I want to go back to the polling. The voters great let go. What if it's a business. What are you have to. You have to do an online survey or something or how do you do. Yeah so the way. I do it but i also give ways that people can do it in the book. That don't have anything to do with me. But it's easier for me to explain it the way i do it. It's i have a partnership with the largest data collection analytics and ai company. America i can take a customer list of a company or i can put a pixel on their website and i can literally track grab those ip address that those customers or their clients or their website. Visitors and i tracked their online movements. I can tell you dry track. Their movements their minds online movements. Okay go online where you going on the page. Yeah the database. That i work with we do this. Both on the political side and on the consumer side our database has two hundred million plus american consumers. Five hundred and fifty million plus connected devices. We track ten billion online purchasing decisions every day and a trillion searches. So i'm able to get the ip address of a customer list or a website. Pixel we can grab the ip address. We can track their movements online. And then i can tell you every single thing about those groups of individuals. I can tell you why things. I can tell you what they buy. I can tell you what they read what they watch. I can tell you the social media pau social media platforms. They use in chronological order. I can even tell you their values in life and you can go with. It's really scary. I use it. So i can make better connections from my clients whether political or or on the on the consumer side. I use it to have better empathy and connecting with people. I don't use it in any kind of nefarious way. But that's how i utilize it or keep going now from the other. what's next. Yep so then. I'm going to build out a strategic marketing. If you said philip. Let's go run ads. Now that we know these two issues that would be a massive waste of money you have to build a plan like a business plan or you have to build a campaign plan. You have to know how to use those two issues. You have to be strategic. You have to put a budget together. You have to put a time line together. Boom boom all right step. Three for us is now that we know what the data says. And you have a plan in place in. that plan. Really brings the alignment between the candidate or the business owner and the voter or the consumer. And so now you go build the brand and the reason. The brand is the third step. Let's just take a the website you don't want if your candidate you don't wanna send some money to your campaign website. It doesn't speak to them to as that's not good. You mean right. Let's say you're talking about issues they don't care about. That would turn off that voter or you talk about a product or service. You're selling for a business but you're not highlighting what the consumer actually wants to hear from you so you have to fix the brand. I in fact. Let me tell you this and i use this stat in the book but eighty eight percent. I think by compuserve gave me gave me this but eighty eight percent of all consumers right now if they have one bad experience on your website will never come back again and i guarantee you and gerry have looked at some kind of product online and went. Oh that's interesting. You click on it and then you get some junkie website. You go. nope nope nope nope. And you swipe out of it and you never gone back. I can tell you it's ubiquitous that almost everybody has told me. Oh yeah. I've done that. My point is is that you've got to get the brand right. You got to tell the story right and you gotta do it before you go. Spend a lot of money where you run out because it seems like a very hard proposition. I mean it sounds easy to say it to get getting the the the brand correct. I mean it. Sounds like a really sounds easy to say it but it sounds like a really tough thing to actually do that. You know what i mean. Because there's no formula for getting the or maybe you have. You're gonna tell me that. Well that is the formula. Is everybody's different. But if i find out that Covert and fiscal issues. Are your top two issues. No no no getting the brand right meaning. Brands are pretty complicated. Things right carriers near leaning in. I completely agree and i i would imagine that as fills listening to. It is very different. Free person like i. I know for myself you give me too many pop ups. I'm just leaving the website. Even if i'm interested in the product but i'm sure that doesn't apply to everyone it's just but that's just the the experience interfacing with the website is that is that what you're talking about the experience of the of the website or the actual like governor as governor. I want to be a bran worried about my brand is how do i really understand. Experience is easy too easy to fix or easy to work on. The message is what everybody most everybody gets wrong. You've got to get the message again. Let me just go back to. Let's say it's this issues and covid. We just learned that those pop off the charts right Your website is going to develop a message around those two issues so when it's time to run a an ad campaign and the voters go yeah. I don't know dr drew. I loved that guy. Let's see what he's all about. They go to your website and boom. There's you There's your lovely wife and your lovely kids but then also it's here's one running for governor. I'm running to the fiscal mess and running to never have covid restrictions. I was gonna say it again if cove it is. What's mobilizing people. I would think message of freedom would be the thing that people would spark california top line on this. But i'm switching my net but i'm learning about so my brand could be getting regaining. Control the state for the people. That's my absolute. Yeah that's why you develop the step to develop a strategic plan because you you nuance all this okay. Okay yeah yeah so you put the brand plays and the brand i. I'm i'm sorry to keep say the brand. Are you talking about as presented on the website. It's the website it could be the video. We create your website. Let's look at. Trump is sort of the model for branding. Make america great again. That's the brand right that the kind of thing you're talking about like some some slow gun or some it. Not just a slogan. It's what you're running on. Because we know from the data. What would you re voters. Would you want to know about that issue. Would you buy brand include. I don't know until. I see what the voters want. And i understand what you're top issues are what you gave me. But i'd want to drill down on that a lot more. Okay now. I get it. Okay keep going. The fourth step is now that we've done those three things before you go out and spend a ton of money on ads. I wanna test those two messages. Many different ways to figure out what works the best. Let me tell you what i mean by that. I am not here to talk about right versus left for policy issues. This example comes from donald trump's two thousand sixteen campaign. I'm talking about how they marketed to win the race. One of the things they did. And i walked through this in the book but one of the things they did was they would run a facebook ad. One add one message. They'd run it and sixty two different ways and they would put a small minute show budget in place for not a big one small one and what they would do is they would run an ad with blue background. A rip background a woman on the ad of man on the add a different font sizes different funds the message in the right corner of the message in the left corner but inevitably they found eight or nine of those messages of those key points. They would find eight or nine that blew through the roof. They couldn't explain why they only know even were. They were honing in on the right issues but it was something within those issues right. That exploded for that voter. And so what did they when they went to the fist. Step which is now two launcher ad campaign or your marketing campaign. What was what did they run. They ran the eight or nine. That exploded off off all their ads on the testing favors. So before you go spend a ton of money and they're plenty of people out there who tell you go. Spend a lot of money on day. One and i don't and i don't have any business owner. I tell you gotta work through the steps to eliminate your risk every step of the way and every step of the way you gotta get this right so when you go spend money to run your campaign you know what works and it puts you in a better position to win or in the business sense to convert more customers all. I'm still with you. So that's worth sidestepped. Oh i thought we were still on sept. Three so so lists testing okay. Five is now that we found out what works in the testing phase. We're ready to launch the the ad campaign the marketing god. You've heard me talk about public wreck at mead so often the pants don't feel good. They don't fit together too long. Shore the races and ride or the. Ncaa isn't riot or the pockets aren't good. Which is my biggest complaint nano with public rack. The material is extraordinarily. It's stretchy it looks. It looks like slacks. 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The podcast is sponsored by better help and dr drew podcast listeners. Get ten percent off their first month of better help dot com slash droop. Again that is better each lp dot com slash drew and then and then back to businesses eat. It seems to me having a conversation with someone like about this kind of issue this morning. It's i've been thinking about these things. I don't know how to say this. But the brand has to be crafted to the we're the buyers are if that makes it has to be a you know every business owner drew. We'll tell you all about their business but that may not be what the customer want right right. Same thing with the politician the voter so what we have to do is find a lineman. What does the business owner and the customer. Where did they find that alignment. And then. that's that's you know. Obviously build your brain can give you an example. Yes so we work with the national pest control company and they came to us and they had built a massive. They their business. It exploded on the backs of the great recession in the late. Two thousand two thousand and they came to us and two thousand seventeen. They said we are hemorrhaging money. And we're spending one point eight million dollars in our marketing right now and we're hemorrhaging money. We've lost two million dollars in market share. We don't know what's going on. I said what are you running your ad campaign and they said well we're every ad came has some kind of message about discounts in it and i said why do you run discounts. They said because it's built our business the great recession and i said well. It doesn't work anymore. So we overlaid all their customers on track them for a month and then we came back with this massive report and we said your customers are older. They have discretionary income and they look at discounts cheap but they bundle their services. And so if you you you frame it around bundling services rather than discounts. Everything will change the these people. All this demographic for this pest control company also had children out of the household and they were contributing money to charities rather than contributing money to children and this company had contributed lots of money to charity and never told that story and also the customer wanted green products safe products and they had never marketed their green sake products and so we went through the. We built a plan for them. We completely redid their entire website. We shot ads for them. All on these issues we went and tested. It blew through the roof and then we went to step five. We launched the campaign now. Let me get something clear. Nobody is going to hire a pest control company because they had to charity or they have green products or they have bundled services. They hire a pest control company because they won't damn bugs debt. That's it right now. When they go. Google i need a pest control company. Three companies pop up on the on the search. And now i'm trying. That's what i'm that's where i come in. What's the difference that makes the difference between those three companies and if i can't connect with them when they come to that website and see that brand. That's all that matters in the fifth month of working with us. They had the greatest in the history of their company. Not do what did you do. Not because of me because we saw what the customers wanted and we tailor their entire marketing campaign around the customer not around discounts. Which was what they were losing a ton of money on. What did they do what you do again. Yeah we ran ads online where we ran ads green products. We ran out of see. All that stuff goes getting money to charities and and how they handle termite service with pest service and save money got it got got it really interesting stuff again. I just think this in in the seas or one of the reasons. I was talking to somebody about i was talking about pharmacists and about how things used to be in this country pharmacies. That was talking about where used to walk in a pharmacy and there would be a pharmacist. Who owned the store and his family and his assistants representing the pharmacists owner. And they would help you guide you through the aisles and figure out what's going on what you need and what you know what's bothering you what you're looking for solutions for that don't exist more and in a way were left just with the ability to respond to colors and slogans and labels brands and i think as a result of that we become more primitive primitive man. We're going after here. We're going to have to your brain stem. Not after your frontal cortex. Wow that's that is a. I had not thought about one hundred percent right. Yeah it's interesting and and look in a land of ten thousand ads a day. You better use a science. I mean basically. I shot a scientific formula. But you better use a proven system that you know work. I don't care if it's not my but you can. You don't have to mind but it could be anything but if you're out there throwing a bunch of things against the wall and thinking it's going to work it's not if you're a business owner or politicians it just doesn't yep yep. I agree so speaking of being a patient. One of the reasons you've been on this show was to disguise. I'm dealing with patients while i'm trying to talk to you too by the way i'm having all kinds of bank patient stuff bleed in on me but You were talking about your medical stuff. Couple times you've been here how things going so yeah. I was diagnosed with the rare suffo- geel disease called echolalia back about two thousand twelve. So i've had at Nine years now basically the muscles in the nerves do not work in africa. So no food is emptied into the stomach unless i am by pounding water and i've had a eighteen procedures minor procedures on vegas and four major surgeries on it. Since two thousand and fourteen and a long story short the you know. Long term prognosis prognosis is unknown. There's can be so bad things could be nothing. We don't know a couple years ago. I just said i don't accept this anymore. And i decided i'd try to take entrepreneurial skills and find a cure to the disease wrote an article in inc magazine. Two thousand seventeen. A researcher on the disease founded at johns hopkins came approached. Me and said Yeah i am interested in helping you find the cure. He just read the article and that was what led to that. He got a google ertz from the word appalachia. Wow and yup and we got connected. We ended up putting a team around me. you'll know these medical terms better than most but we had approval from the fda and the internal review board at johns hopkins and basically we created a compassionate use case which is not even a clinical trial right before the clinical trial. I'm the first person in the history of this particular disease to ever attempt to cure new. Never even attempt on animal and what happened was in the fall. Two thousand nineteen went to hopkins. They extracted skeletal stem cells out of my thigh muscle. They grew them in a lab report before cove. In february of two thousand twenty they inserted two hundred and twenty five million stem cells into myself to try to regenerate the muscles and the nerves. And i couldn't go back to hopkins for nine months to do checkup. But that was a problem. They want us you sooner. They want me in. May of twenty twenty you get to go back because of covid until late summer and went back did a ton of procedures and scopes and they determine it did not work Now we are going back for. Fda approval and hopkins approval internal review. Berta poobah again and this time. They are going to insert between five hundred. Six hundred million stem cells. And i'm i'm a little confused by the stem cell because you grew them as muscle progenitor cz. Yes at a lab. Cook maya site. So they're not really stem. Cells are sort of early myocytes right. They're not they're not. We call terms better than me. They took my stem cells. And then they. They made modest miles located. Yeah something called. The pluripotent stem cell which stem cells. It can turn into anything. That's what we start of when we're an egg were pluripotent And there's various versions of that and as you specialize the sells more and more there. Obviously there they may be stem cells in the sense that their early progenitor of a particular cell line. And i suspect that's what they're doing because with stem cells generally the only thing they've shown so far is it stem cells release in anti inflammatory mediators and reduce inflammation. They don't go and become muscle cells. They don't come go and become nerves. Can't put him in the brain and they become nerves and go where they're supposed to go. That just does not happen but these earlier. Janitors might do something like that. Yeah so is that. Is that the theory here. The the theory behind why they decided to do it. This way and take skeletal cells instead of potentates belly. Fat stems right. Well central stem cells. Is they said that there had been tested on mice for Continents and that smooth muscle of the anus is similar to the esophagus and they saw regeneration in mice on on that particular smooth muscle god. Because you're stop ago smooth muscle skeletal at the top and it smooth at the bottom. You know that we're in your throat where you can swallow consciously that skeletal muscle but what pushes it down into the stomach. That's smooth muscle correct. And so their their their attempt was. Hey you know. This had worked on certain animals in the eye with incontinence and so the the muscle in the contractions were created from that so they decided this could work for humans and i began the first subject of that of that attempt. And you see you're going to have a down again did have well. Yeah they're going to double the amount of themselves they will put into myself because this time. Two hundred twenty five million stem cells inserted in two thousand and twenty. And then if i do it which we're planning to do it in august of two thousand twenty one it will be about five hundred six hundred million stem cells and who pays for this. I'd will Yeah there's no way to get the i'm just not a pocket that's it. It's such an experimental. You think any health insurance is going to pay for something where you think there'd be a way to get some research funding or something to help you on. Yeah the growing of the stem cells. The lab has decided that they would find that but the actual procedures and everything. I i'm the one that has to fund that forgive the question from pure luddite fell but is there any potential of recovering financial expenditure on the back end if the basis of your if your disagreement is successful and it becomes the basis for a treatment that will be used in the future on others. I have no idea. It's a really good question. I should probably look into that. Just have not. yeah could you. Could you released be an investor. Whatever yeah you have a stake in the procedure they become. You know thought of that. I'm an entrepreneur. Should have thought of their listen. Well i wish you the best. This is how you doing. Symptomatically generally going You know every year it deteriorates a little bit more. So it's a little harder these days. I take our mutual friend. Dr steven country is is the doctor. I work with a lot of my blood work and he. He's got me on about fifty to sixty supplements a day. Fifty to sixty. I take a lot supplements. Can't talk all my markers have have gun incredibly like the bad ones have gone. Good the good ones have got better. The ones in the middle have gotten better. Everything has improved. I've done this about three years with him. Now what do you make What's what are you measuring about a hundred two hundred twenty seven different things. So it's a lot to take those supplements and then not have muscle to get those supplements down. That's a that's a little challenge for me on a daily basis. You must have to take one of those. Five gallon jugs of water. I do pour it down. Yep i do y- we actually did a this way to technical for your audience. We did a barium swallow. When i was at hopkins recently and while swallows they basically have an x ray on you and you swallow this chalky milky nasty thing. But they showed they had me take a bunch of pills and then they swallowed this chunky thinks so they could monitor where those bills and they just sat there for like forty five minutes. Have you had manama tree done where they put the pressure devices yourself to. I'd had so many injuries die. Yes and has anybody suggested surgical. I forget what we've had this conversation. The past heller. Miami with undulation. And i've had a another procedure called the i can't. I don't know what it's called. It's called p. o. l. poem. It's more it's a new procedure that go through your mouth and slice up the myself because looks like an upside down. pom-pom is just shredded. Like crazy so that. I can get food into my stomach. But i mean had four major surgeries on these off because of cold a lot of scopes and a lot of expansions and balloon expansion for those who maybe haven't heard the past episodes when we first had you on about three or four years ago. Phil i remember that you kind of blow her mind in that you were in studio from florida. You'd flown out to california. And you told us you were traveling with a blender because it was the only way you could ingest. Any of your food. is that still still reality. I that is one of my meals every day. I i remember. I told this story to corolla and i said that i have to get up really early. Like four thirty five in the morning and i do this blender and and he goes oh. I'm first thing he goes to ensure or the people in the room next out. And i never thought about. I guess i have It's so funny. Well i when you say it's shredded wheat. I understand what you're talking so it can expand and food can get empty so it's not so restricted. So they've literally gone and just kind of taken a blade end just kind of cut esophagus. Because they're trying to cut through the trying to cut the muscles correct. That leaves more of an open conduit to the stomach. All the acid now gets up in your off which makes us worse right but we you and i talked about the so since i've worked with dr country on his die for four years. Now i take no. P p p proton pump inhibitors. What you take for reflex. I don't take any prescription medication for this particular disease. Even though i'm way susceptible to acid reflux but that diet works for me. His diet works remain. Good all right. So the other topic i wanted to get into. Was this book. What happened my book. God band on facebook undefeated marketing. Or whether yes yes so before the book came out i reached out to few friends. I you guys may have even been included. And i said i'd love for you to give me a bunch of different book covers. And i wanted to figure out what the best what people like the best and so i sent it out group of fifty people. They came back and basically it was between the all three covers. That were my options for the book. It was like an even vote. So i i went to my marketing team and i said let's go run some. Let's go test. Some facebook ads on these covers to see what people click through the most and that will give me some optics. We submitted the ads through facebook. And they came back to me and said we are banning your Your ability to run an ad on our platform. And i said why and they said because your subtitle of your book is how to grow your business and build your audience using the secret. Formula that elects presidents. So you say lx presidents and there and you're trying to influence election. Oh my god. I remember this is not. This is not me posting and the reason. This is a distinction. I want to make clear. This is me trying to run an ad. There are millions of people whose lives depend on being able to run out on some rat run ads on social media platforms and since two thousand eighteen. We've felt these bands on the political ads side of things. And you can think to yourself. Oh those political ads they stink. Who cares i. I'm good with their band. But they're coming for you next like cancel culture and so what is happening literally part of cancel culture right now. It is seeped into the business world. I have so many business owners that have told me that they had had their ads band. Since i wrote about it. I went on fox news. I wrote a huge article and the federalist and national publication about it but they banned it. When when i appeal the decision i went to them. I said this is a business. Marketing book has nothing to do with electing or or an election. They said denied without any explanation. They wouldn't give me any explanation. And i said well you know. I have a little bit of a platform. I'm and i'm gonna make a ruckus here. And so i did and i got on fox. News wrote a national publication and dr drew. This is what's crazy so i had a A a charity reach out to me and they said we also got banned and what and the charity. They support polling sexually and physically abused kids out of these physically and sexually abused homes. That is the point. That is the whole Charity they rescue children. That are being abused. And they put them in a center they take care of them medically they work with the police force their importance of the police force. They put them say foster. It is the most incredible charity i've ever seen. They are miracle workers and because of kobe they had the worst financial year ever so they went to facebook and they said we want to run an ad campaign fundraising campaign so we can raise money to help more sexually and physically abused kids and raise money so we can do it. Facebook said no. We haven't issues at bannon place and you fall in the issue ad band so they refused to let this charity run ads in the most challenging year of their existence because of the term sexual abuse. Or what no not the term. But they they put them. Facebook puts this charity in issues. 'cause and because of that they had banned all from running ads on face. Why not every other charity. That goes after helping. The large majority of them fell in that. I don't know but i just know that they did. And then facebook kept the ban in place until march fourth of two thousand twenty one. But they didn't tell anybody that the ban was going to be lifted including my ban. They just announced it the day before so. This charity couldn't plan a month in advance knowing the band was going to be lifted and they could start fundraising again so you basically put them out until the spring of twenty twenty one and this is you know how much physical and sexual has happened because of the lockdowns. This is what i'm talking about. And then the the other story which there is a business book Business all three shots make any just donald. He he hit number one on the wall street journal bestsellers list for his financial book. But it almost did. It hit the bookshelves because amazon band. His book because in the book he talked about how he invested during the covert nineteen pandemic and. They told him he had to remove the word. Kobe corona virus and covid from his book or they would not put it on their platform because he was not a doctor and when he appealed and said. I'm not i'm not saying i'm a doctor. I'm an industrial talk about how this works for investing. They said sorry denied. He had to remove the words from his book where they almost didn't or they will. He shouldn't feel bad because even as a physician they'll they nailed me. I mean they have no. They're closed their help By the way me talking to another physician twice. Got tagged once-off periscope and once off of youtube just just to doctors sitting just sharing ideas thinking about things talking about new treatments talking about haulers talking about where we got things right where we got things wrong. Nope unacceptable and and i- youtube sent me a entire chapter. There's this multi page document about what you know that. We violated their policies. Here our policies which. I read through carefully and i wasn't anywhere near. I mean these were outer space allegations. You know literally. I would never get near the only thing i came near on. I found one thing. I had the temerity to say that after having had covert i had good immunity. You're not allowed to do that. You're not allowed to do that. Yeah even as a physician. And i haven't measured it measured every three weeks. I've objective proof of active immunity at a level. That's orders of magnitude above the vaccine. Got it. I've got it in paper. No no. i guess they wouldn't tell me what the violation much like. You guess what it is and and then you never know because you can't even adjust course and so congress is looking at this section the law that gives these platforms unity and there are some democrats that are putting a proposal. Together it could get bipartisan. Support the problem. Is it the bill that they're putting forward. Things called the safe tech act. But basically it's saying that the social media companies would be liable for denying. Ads are excuse me. For allowing adds that violated certain policies. They would finally be liable. The problem with that is now. The social media companies are going to deny even more ads because they don't wanna be liable for anything and the and listen. I had a book cover. That was being not the worst thing in the world trust me. I know that the problem is is that there are millions and millions of business owners out there who who support their families and support their employees all based on running ads on facebook or instagram or amazon. And if this happens you're eliminating large portion of the economy. And i always tell people you can say. Oh screw those pop political ads. That's great 'cause we got hit with these bands in two thousand eighteen. But they're coming for you next. That is what i need to. I'm screaming from you. You don't understand when you decide that free speech is for one person. It's eventually going to not be for anyone and so. This is the problem that i see. And i'm trying to fight back on it do you. Can you send your article please. yeah please email to me. Because i've been asked to come speak libertarian. Talk of some type libertarian organization. And i'm sympathetic to libertarian groups. And i thought this could be interesting thing for me to talk about. The experience will follow it directly all the time getting canceled facebook canceled on whatever. And it's just. I mean this back to us being primitive man Fairness is something. Everybody is not fair not fair. And that's a kind of primitive idea fairness but this isn't fair not fair to send people to the cornfields or what was it Where where did they get to the show. The cornfields Without an explanation for why or how to get back. Yeah and by the way. I talk about how this businesses but it's charities. They're going after charities now. Like this is incredible. It's insane. i know i know. Well you're in a position where year looking to see for a physician. You can't find one you search you find. It looks good. you're on hold. You rearrange your schedule and you find out doesn't hit your insurance. Well now you can download the free zach doc app easy to find excellent physician instantly book. An appointment was occupied research and search for local doctors. Who take your insurance. You can read verified. Patient reviews book appointments in person video chat. Never wait on. Hold whether you need a primary care. Physician dentist mythologised psychiatrists psychiatrist doctor. Or other specialties. Doc has you covered goto. Zok docs yo see diaz dot com slash drew download. The app santa for free every month. Millions of people. Who zach doc. That's right this is one of the efficiencies now. We have in medicine where you can use the app. It's healthcare made easy. Now is the time to prioritize your health. Go to doc. Doc dot com slash drew download. These doc doc app design it for free and book a top rated dr many available as soon as two day that is zero. Cdc dot com slash drew. I learned recently. That health insurance does not cover costs of emergency medical flight. Even that's interesting. I guess. I'm not surprised even when comprehensive coverage you can still get hit with substantial deductibles and copays. Protect your family. Protect your finances with air med. Care network membership as a member. An emergency arises. The expense of air medical transport is completely covered when flown by an amc and provider. Membership cost as little as eighty five dollars a year and covers your entire household everyday when you're away from home or at home just pennies a day to keep your whole family covered. We all know that the unexpected can happen. An amc and membership is protection. No family should be without for limited time. Dr drew listeners will get up to a fifty dollar e gift card when you join. That makes the cost of membership. Thirty five dollars right. Simply visit hair medicare network dot com forward slash. Dr drew and use offer code drew. Well listen i. I am feeling your pain. My friend And as always. It's great to talk to you. I don't feel yourself gio pain. I feel your pain in your your. I feel your cancel pain Which were all gonna have connected with and if you notice. Bill maher started talking about it lately and rightfully so. Yeah and it's it's look. You only need steadier french revolution. It's all you need to study. It tells you everything you need to know about what we're going through here. Nobody's pure enough. That's the way it is. So the jacob. Put you up on the Guillotine the sonko. Let's come up put. The jacques runs on the on. The just how human behavior works unless you say stop everybody. Let's reconsider this. That's kind let's be saying. Let's be critically reflective about things and stop this craziness but i guess people are gonna have to go further with it before they really able to do that. Who is the book for the undefeated marketing system. How to grow your business and build your audience. Who do you want to read it. I want business owners marketers. People that are inching politics. How how the as is adam likes to say how the sausage made or it's not just back. He said it really is a modern day. Look at how a political campaigns have been run and what businesses can learn from them and then We you know with this data that we talked about how to look. At consumers voters we created a four free data assessment for any business owner out. There that's like. I want to look at understand. How customers dilip stutz dot com slash insights. And it's a free assessment. My team will walk you through what she should be looking at. How you do that for my governorship. I do it for you for free. Wow obviously i do it for any listener for free and so yeah and what's on win big media well when big media is the marketing agency. I run that so that is Time insights is my brand and that's just where people but it would be my company that puts that together when they actually decide to run. That's when i go on when big media right yeah and then. I've created a podcast that we just launched called the undefeated marketing podcast. And it's this book and we talk about all of these in depth in much more detail if that's something other people show great and that's on the usual places all the usual places. Yep we just launched april. Sixth well filled always great to talk to you and For those that don't remember from previous conversations fills the guy that met me in washington and it took me into the west wing and that was quite an experience. You guys made some progress you you did good work i. I'm still affected by all that and still worried about all the things we were talking about. But the thing that we don't know if you remember but there was somebody from the economic advisers in the committee and he said he looked up turning over the i m d exclusion. Now it's like. Oh my god that would be everything. That's now where. I'm focusing a lot of my energy. I would like to overturn the md exclusion by the way drew. Did you highlight the past episodes that fills so episode three twenty six and four thirty three and we recently had the the pay wall that protects some of our older episodes completely taking down so everything is available. Now if you're interested in phil go back and listen to some of his his earlier episodes for For more infill. That was a wise decision. Do you know what led to that decision practice. Nobody was paying to get behind the pay wall. That was part of it. And i believe apple is about to at by the time this areas apple i believe is mandating it so low interest. I think that we were compelled. How do they do that. They know you know it's it's it's happening as we speak. This has all happened the week that we are recording this. So it's all little unclear at the Paywall was taken down as we record this about four days ago for every show on all podcast so inevitably this interesting feels to you too. so what. what apple is saying. Is that the ad revenue model for. Podcast is the only model sport i actually. I think that there is a further component. This where apple is. Apple has changed the the terminology that they use in their podcast app. So you no longer subscribe to a podcast. You follow a podcast. And i believe that. That is anticipation of podcasts. Within apple and beyond going to a hybrid patriots style model where subscribing would be something you pay for where you get one thing and following you got the free episodes so i believe that. They're taking down the paywall in anticipation of the business world shoulder. So they're going to be the patriots are going to have. You can have your own pay while you have to have their if it's not the substance not all right. You can read some things on subsidies and others to subscribe to. That's but good news for all the listeners. You can find all the old philip episodes. No i don't i. I thought behind the pay wall was not good for us because he preferred back things. But but what somebody like. Sam harris who has you know part free and part not for. He did not do that anymore. No i think you'll still be able to do that. I think apple is going to slowly open it up so that if you would like to go within their ecosystem exclusively you can but you don't have to. This feels like it has something to do with the spotify Yeah i mean. I i think spotify comes into the space. That's certainly a thing. And i think that as places like only fans patriotic become very prominent. Well i know that that's mostly sex sex type thing but there are people who do who do podcast and stuff on there too and i just think you know if you think about apple. They're always late to the game. You know the iphone was well. After the advent of the smartphone. He changed the game because it was so good but it was not an early smart. I've been trying to do something. Called low adamant ibm locals thing called locals which is a sort of a separate some of april. Yeah but it's but it's not you know it's not right or left. It's just whatever you want it to be and have it and it's yours sort of little little own platform and that's been pretty interesting model local so for me locals dot com slash dr drew. I think it's three get him. Well philip thank you so much. And i will see you if i if i after i speak to mr schwarzenegger phillips death dot com. You could just go to win big media or have a friend. We'll talk all right. Thanks to everybody was next time for colin times and topics. Follow the show on twitter. Dr drew podcast. That's dr dr. w podcast route. Today's episode can be found on the swing. And sounds of the you drew. Podcast now available on itunes. And while you're there don't forget your rate. The show to dr drew podcast. Corolla digital production hen is produced by chris. Lock simona and gary smith for more information. Go to dr. Drew dot com all conversation information exchange during the participation in the doctor podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes. Only do not confused with treatment or medical advice or direction nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede relationship direction of your medical hair takers although dr drew is licensed physician with specialty board certification by the american board of internal medicine. Any american board of addiction medicine. He's not functioning as a physician in this environment. The same applies to any professionals who may appear on the podcast. Dr drew dot com look. Staying healthy isn't easy watching your diet hitting the gym avoiding stress. But a good night's rest helps boost your overall health and wellness and it couldn't be easier. The new sleep number three sixty smart bet is the only bed. That effortlessly adjusts in response to both of you the result you wake up ready for anything. 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Should Women and Men Handle Money Differently? #317

How to Money

37:00 min | 4 months ago

Should Women and Men Handle Money Differently? #317

"With the kobe. Nineteen pandemic on the rise and businesses needing to adapt entrepreneurs are moving to online courses. More than ever start your own online course and get in on the ground floor of the hottest entrepreneurial trend with thick thick it makes creating marketing and selling customized online courses. Simple drill your business by sharing your skills knowledge and talents with a world whether you are a guitar teacher or a business coach. Think if it can help you reach and teach millions start selling your online course today at think vic dot com that's think i f dot com qualcomm. We believe in staying connected and you can see us wherever five g is helping transform telemedicine supporting remote education empowering mobile. Pc's the invention ages here. Learn more at qualcomm dot com slash invention age. Welcome to money. i'm joel into i matt. Today were asking the question. Should women and men handle money differently. I can't believe we actually went through with this topic. I'd like to ask questions potentially get me in trouble that we're actually going to do an episode on this but we after discussion. You felt that know there. Were definitely some insights that we can glean from talking about how it is that men and women might be handling their money differently and there just so many studies to inform us about how men and women have hailed money differently in the past. But i think to. There's a way forward after we see that. Yes that information. And i think yeah you and i are going to have some good advice hopefully to share for men and women based on the stats that we've seen in the studies that are out there and we're going to also do our very best to not completely step in it because that's what i feel like right now is that we're about to step in it. Why promised we're not gonna come at this from like a madman. Okay even though we do like a nice beverage during our work days before we get into that though. You wanna talk about this fence issue that you got going on in my hyping it up. Maybe it's not an issue. Actually well remains to be seen whether it's an issue or not yet so at at one of my rental properties my my next door neighbor who actually have never met We used to live in that home. my next door neighbor rents out his home and so even when we lived in that house i never met him but he left a note on the door. Saying hey please call me. I want to talk about some stuff. Tenant really that on over to me and it turns out. He wants to replace the fence. That goes in between both of our yards. And i will say the fence not attractive in. It actually looks pretty rough. It's a chain link fence. It just has not held up well over the years but chain link fences of definitely fallen out of favor. I mean i'm not gonna lie. They're pretty hideous. Like we've got one back back. I mean from a utilities standpoint. They're pretty great. I mean it's like they will probably be there for another one hundred years if you let it you know this one definitely will not really you know it's already kinda fallen apart in some spots. And so yeah. He wants to replace it together. And so we're in the midst of getting a quote kinda see how much it costs and if it's inexpensive willing to jump in on this Especially it's just like. I feel like it's the right thing to do but i will say to man if the quote comes back and it's too high. I'm not going to be down for it because it is something. That's just not a high priority on my list. I've never had ten complain about the fact that the fence is in perfect shape. And so yeah. It's kind of one of those like tvd as to whether or not You willing to go half on this fence but my gut is telling me probably not. I don't know. Is that frugal or cheap of me. Man this is such a hard one because so on one hand with it being a rental like in my mind. That's one of the benefits of having a backyard. Here in the city is the ability to have a pet is the verners thinking have got a pet. I would like for them to be able to run in the backyard. Selling point to have you know having a fenced in kind of closed in backyard they do actually so interestingly enough this fences kind of up slightly raised on a hill and and so many. My tenants have had animals. None of those animals. I've ever gotten out through the fence. Okay so it. It still does job okay. Animals since still climb hills though right now they can. But it's just it's it's really to get through or over even with like the disrepair that it might be. Okay it's the reason. I say that because we found ourselves in a similar situation years ago at our old house before we moved out. We knew that we were going to keep that houses. A rental and the fence between us and our neighbor was in complete disrepair. I mean it was like literally there are sections of it. That had fallen over. It was an old wooden fence. It had completely rotted out over decades of being exposed to the right. And so in my mind i was like you know what i'm willing to pay because in this case this is going to be a selling point. I guess four future tenants. But yeah i mean the fact is is it. Sounds like you've got they're currently. It's still works. I'll have a tough time agreeing to replacing something that still kind of getting the job done and honestly do from a personal standpoint to like. I know that like if my neighbors here to us wanted to go in on offense. I'm not sure. If i would say yes because i personally feel that fences are a little overrated sound specifically thinking of our next door neighbors. They don't have any pets. We don't have any pets. They've got a couple of young kids and if that fence were to fall over or start to rot and we wanted to get rid of it. Like i would be totally okay if it was just one big open backyard. Yeah like i wouldn't even mind if their kids kinda you know played in our backyard a little bit and so i feel like this is like one of those expenses that it's found its way into our culture and it's like oh you've got to have a fence or if there wasn't ever yard or through the fence there you have to replace it right whereas i want to ask the question of will do you actually need to replace it like. Is that something that you could do without. Because it's not like. I gained a lot of joy from the fact that is offense between us and so i think in my mind it kind of depends. If it's if it's an investment property rental i would lean more towards making sure that there is a functional structure there between homes but if it's me personally as long as they don't have a dog. I don't want a dog running over. Pooping in the that would suck but otherwise offensive might be overrated. I think i'm with you. And i'll wait and see what the or the quote comes back out if it's pretty low estimate if it's a reasonable then Jump in on this but my natural tendency is to say now the kind of crummy fence is mostly doing. Its job still gets done. So let's just leave good enough alone. I i actually still want to see how that fence is falling apart. Because in my mind chain link fences they don't fall apart like a metal. I'll show you some. Pictures are mentioned the beer that we're having on the show today. This one's called on cassette anthem. This is a brewery out of north carolina. They make excellent beer. So looking forward to sharing this one on this episode with you today matt but let's go into the subject at hand we're asking. The question should women and men handle money differently and matt. I think part of the reason that we decided to tackle this kind of sensitive topic this week because valentine's day is coming up this weekend. We figured we'd create an episode. That discusses the differences between how men and women handle money there will of course be some generalizations in this episode. We want to get that out of the way up front. Many women buck the trend and handle their money very differently than how studies show. And we're going to be quoting a lot of studies in this episode. Brace yourself and vice versa. To right there's a lot of men who handle money a whole lot different than study show as well sure. I think there's a general belief that men shoot from the hip when it comes to money and some of the surveys bear that out. But that's obviously not the case for all dudes either. But i think there are things that we can learn from the data about the tendencies of each sex in their views and actions in the realm of personal finance man. We have an open combo today. Essentially about the pros and cons of how men and women stereotypically handle money so that we can find some common ground and then i'll start to make better financial decisions based on the information that's set in front of us. Yeah that's right and and you know you mentioned the research. And i'm glad did because i mean that is what we're going to be looking at we're gonna looking at surveys reports research. And even though these studies are focusing on individuals tweets maybe some tweets. Maybe no tweets okay. I wanted to mention that. We're we're not necessarily downplaying the fact that there are like structural issues within our society in with an employer's right like specific companies that lead to some of these some of these differences between how men and women are treated or or how they handle their money right. There are certainly changes that need to be made in in different steps that companies in our society as a whole needs to take to make sure there is more parody. But i mean this is how to money and so what we talk about. Our personal changes we can make in our own lives We're not necessarily looking at policy. We're not looking at some of these larger issues. That are a part of the equation but it is important to acknowledge the existence. Say yes that's part of the deal. Here we are gonna and some of the stats that we're going to convey in this episode are in part related to some of the structural problems that exist in our society. Yeah man you know. It's also important to note that covid man it is had an even greater impact on women than it has on men You know we. We talked about the source of end of last year but an overwhelming number of m- women Have left the work place. Since spring of last year in large part due to the childcare needs other families women are leaving their jobs at a rate four times the rate of men which is crazy and a recent fidelity study found that thirty nine percent of women who haven't made a change yet are considering a change to the work situation. You either leaving your job. Or maybe reducing hours. Due to covid. And i study estimates that taking a short career hiatus could cost upwards of one hundred fifty thousand dollars in future. Well yeah and so. It's just important to note that these decisions have implications beyond just money But it's worth noting that many women find themselves in an even more precarious financial position. Right now yemen. I think we'll see in this episode. Part of the problem isn't that women are worse with money than men that is i think sometimes the prevailing narrative But that's not actually true. And i think actually when we dig into it. We'll find in many of the scenarios we're gonna talk about. Women actually have a better concept of how to handle their money in any actually handle money. Better in practice can do a better job. All that's certainly part of the takeaway today and But one of the issues. The women do struggle with more than men is the level of confidence that they have. When making money decisions. There was study of small business owners from the university of cambridge and they found twenty percent. Fewer women admitted to their business prospering compared to their male counterparts even though their businesses were experiencing a greater level of ability so women their businesses were doing better doing great but they just couldn't admit it they couldn't. They didn't have the confidence to say that that was the case and maybe some of it was The the opposite a little too much bravado in the case of the males in that survey right. But i think one of the things that we want to talk about in today on the show is you know you and i both want to see men and women exude confidence in their money. Choices and confidence is tied to knowing what you're doing you can be confident when you know how the game is played and you know the next steps to take. Which is matt just such a big part of the reason you and i started to money. They want people to have confidence to make the right moves with their money. And i feel like the feedback. We get from of our listeners. Is that that's the impact of the show has had people who didn't otherwise what to do they now have a playbook and that breeds confidence In that allows them to go out there and start kicking but with their personal finances. Absolutely do nia and and one of the reasons to that. We're talking about this today and why we feel. This is so important is that hopefully this gives us maybe a little bit of insight into the inner workings of our spouse or our partner a little window into how the brain functions i think that better understanding of why our significant other things the way they do about money can be helpful in future money discussions and decisions and plus to hopefully it has further reaching implications as well. You know the more known and understood someone feels like that's going to lead to them feeling more cared for more loved which is only going to result in a stronger relationship knowing our partners tendencies is super helpful in how we approach him with discussions in particular about money. Maybe we'll be less combative when we're bringing up the topic in general because we better understand where they're coming from. Also matt i think knowing the money tendencies that each sexist prone to it can actually help. Teach our kids to handle their money. Better versus using outdated methods of instruction that maybe lead to some of the disparities that we see in financial outcomes for men and women currently families look different in two thousand twenty one. They looked thirty years ago or even just a decade ago stats show that we're seeing far more stay at home. Dads and more women bringing home the bacon and that's awesome so make sure that our sons daughters received the identical lessons when it comes to money and i think matt sometimes in the past That that wasn't the case that young girls and young boys were taught differently about how to think about money and personal finances. I think in today's day and age. They need the same lessons because they're both right. Just as likely to go out in the workforce. They're both just as likely to own their own business to me saving for things for the future and to be investing for retirement and so they need all of the same personal finance knowledge poured into their lives as youngsters. Yeah i mean the reason that they're just as likely is osso too because they're just as capable right and so you know another reason to that we feel this is important is because we you know that listeners will be able to handle their money better by being able to recognize certain patterns tendencies you know regardless of their gender. You might realize that you don't fit the gender stereotypes as we discuss them and that's totally okay. And in fact you know like you said like this might be a good thing and if you do find yourself nodding your head when we talk about how your gender does typically handle their money at least in some of these studies will then this episode. We'll be eye-opening As we're gonna talk about some important instructions as to how you can move forward and so we'll get to some of the specific ways that know men and women might handle their money a little bit differently but then specifically what you can do about that and we'll get to all of that right after this break with no fees or minimums on checking and savings accounts banking with capital. One is like the easiest decision in the history of decisions kind of like choosing to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with capital. Once top rated app you can deposit. Checks ain't transfer money anytime anywhere making capital on an even easier decision. That's banking reimagined. What's in your wallet. Terms apply capital one. Na member fdic good afternoon would you like to try a free sample of our double fudge brownie. Sure that's very good. I'll just take one more just to be sure. Yep still very good. Some things never change like never being able to take just one free sample and geico. Saving folks. Lots of money on their car insurance macadamia nut. I taste take one more sir. I thought south fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more back in the break asking the question today. Should women and men handle money differently. Matt the answer to that question is going to be now. But there's so much information that we came across creating this episode that we feel is important share and i think it sheds a lot of light in how men and women have historically handle their money differently And then i think you know you. And i have a way forward for all of us together that we wanna get to me. There was a book that i never read. But i remember. It was so popular. Couple of decades ago called minna from mars women are from venus and that just sounds like a book from bygone era because it does. I don't know if it's still sold in bookstores. I'm sure you could find us books or something like that. It also makes me. Think of tgif On friday it's like going home watching the four shows. Which one was your favorite handled. Mr cooper or Boy meets world Sabrina the teenage witch classic. Big fan of that one. I obviously never read by the way men are from mars. Women are from venus. I wasn't really because you're like ten came out exactly but you can tell by the title. The author was highlighting gender differences in while men and women do have far more in common than the author probably would like to admit who wrote that book. There are some really important divergences that are worth of our consideration. Yeah so first of all. Let's talk about how you get money in the first place and that is earn it right and according to the pew research center Women earned eighty five percent of what men earned in two thousand eighteen That pay gap is shrinking Particularly for younger workers which is a positive trend but that is still a meaningful hurdle to overcome. The pay. Gap is partly due to to work history. You know like having kids great you know. But as we mentioned with the fidelity study earlier taking time off to have quetta's like it often leads to job offers in worse income prospects not to mention the years of not generating any income which often reflects years of not investing in a workplace retirement account in particular. If there's a match there right and those are some big disadvantages to overcome yell like you said at the beginning matt that stat also reflects some structural issues when it comes to male and female pay. But here's another thing to matt When we're talking about pay women are actually often averse to asking for more money than their male counterparts. There was a survey from ron saad. Last year the found that sixty percent of women have never negotiated with employer. Overpay women are also more likely to stay at a lower wage job to according to The personal finance web site the balance. And that's not good right because even just a small bump in pay with a new employer or in a job that been in for years can have just a massive impact on your ability to earn more throughout the years and then also save more for retirement. So i think of all of the things in this episode where we see. Maybe you know women as sex falling short. It is in in the ability to ask for more at knowing what they're worth again. This is another instance where you might be listening and you're thinking i've never had a problem negotiating a race like i've never had a problem asking for more money so again. It's important to keep in mind that though the research shows us like we know any totally doesn't apply to everyone. I'm specifically thinking of two conversations with Kirstin and julian saunders. The couple behind rich and regular that was episode. Eighty six and julianne was just bragging. About how great pearson is at negotiating. Evidently she's just like the queen negotiating more. Pay if you had to listen to that upset go back and listen to that one. Is that regardless of your gender. Earning more it's just so important right and all of us could stand to our abilities on that front And we've had lots of different conversations on the show that specifically cover you know not just stories of individuals negotiating but just how to go about doing that. I'm of Ramiz sadie that was Backing up said one ten and he outlined a great process a great method You know when it comes to wanting to up your salary. You know what steps you need to take. In order to negotiate a solid race gam thinking to matt had far new darabi on the show. She is just awesome personal finance expert and at the same time. She is someone who has made a killing as a small business owner. She knows her worth. she knows. how to negotiate. Yes so like you said there are many women out. there are crushing it. Who don't have a problem and asking for what they're worth. Who don't have a problem asking for a raise. It's just when you read those statistics. There are obviously a number of women who do though. And i wanna see. That number changed for the benefit of women as a whole absolutely. Let's about spending to do women spend more. That's an interesting question. My wife personally met hates to shop. I really. She just defies the stereotypes. And actually i don't know i don't mind shopping. A little bit roles are a little bit reverse exactly but there was a study by the wharton school of business that found that women are more likely to view shopping as a recreational activity. My mom definitely fits that bill Most men wanna leave the store with their purchases quickly as possible but even though women enjoy shopping more it turns out men still spend more than women in a typical year so while men might not enjoy the process of shopping as much. They still shopping. Just from a utilitarian standpoint sure yeah also that increase spending with the stats as well. There's there's a survey from wallet hub earlier this year. They showed that men are more likely to max out a credit card. Women are apparently seven percent less likely than men to have maxed out credit card at least once in so while women they might enjoy the shopping experience. More than men do a lot of different stats. Show that women are more cost conscious. They're more likely to shop at alice. Stores more likely to to wait till something they want is actually on sale The store brands more than men. And so you know when it comes to spending this this is definitely a win in this category for sure And so i i of see this as a call to min to stop spending so much money on neighboring items fan. Yeah i feel like. I'm totally guilty of this. I totally fall into the study. I don't like to go looking for the best deal. I do because i'm spending less but like i'll look at maybe two or three different sites and then i just purchase right whereas for you like i feel you are so good at hunting and making sure you're keeping your eyes on the best deals out there making sure that you're spending the the least amount of money possible. I feel that's something that we all need to make sure that we're doing right. And so you know regardless of who you are. We should all work to just become a little more conscious and how it is that we spend our money. I gotta say mets. I don't care whether you're man or woman but store brands should be high on your list because they're going to save you a ton of money it's just like in savings when you go for the storebrand over the name brand equivalent unless it's your craft beer equivalent And you're wanting to spend a little bit more on the because it makes you feel nice. Can't name brand everything though. I think i think sometimes that's a tendency here. Maybe that men have The men just gravitate towards the name brand no matter what it is without thinking about it and that's where we need to shake things up right and we we need to consider storebrand's more frequently also too. I think we've talked about this. The quality of store brand items has gone up a whole lot in recent years. Her kirkland signature brag. There's other ones too man. Like target has some great Store brands that are better than their name brand equivalent. Sometimes so yeah. It's not just costco yeah costco rockstar Let's see let's talk about saving as well. There's more good news here. It turns out that the the savings rate for women is actually higher than their male counterparts. They save a higher percentage of their pay. They spend less of what they bring in and much of. That is due to the more frugal. Tendencies that we just highlighted when we talked about spending differences but even the women are saving a higher percentage of their income on average. They've actually got less than thirty percent of what men have in savings accounts according to data from the federal reserve from a few years ago That is likely due to the fact that overall they're still making less like we discussed earlier which means a smaller amounts of money saved overall. Yeah one of the reasons. Women have a higher savings rate as well Is that according to a survey by. Us bank women of all ages value financial security more than men do. But here's the thing than that. Focus on financial. Security can often backfire. If you keep more of your overall assets and savings and cds instead of invested in the stock market right like savings for saving for long-term goals is really important but so is investing For the really long term. So that's actually what we're going to talk about next. We're in talk about investing right after this break. Valentine's day is coming up and we all deserve a little love now more than ever. That's where urban stems comes. It urban stems delivers modern bouquets and stylish plants next state nationwide every delivery includes a personalized your recipient thoughtfully designed packaging and a one hundred percent. Happiness guarantee every bouquet is designed in house an on trend urban stems even has a new dried bouquets selection full of lasting stems with vases included. Take your pick from a variety of modern bouquets at urban stems dot com and. Choose your own vase. Candles chocolates and more checkout. 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Businesses can even use to train and teach new employees from a safe distance ensuring smooth transition with people who are thoroughly prepared join thousands of entrepreneurs creating and selling their own online courses and start monitoring your skills today at ich dot com. That's t h. I n k i f i dot com are back. Break still tackling the tenuous subject of men women and money how they handle money differently but then also how we can all think about money in a similar way because we're really all in the same boat when it comes down to it. Yeah and let's talk specifically investing for a minute. There was a study from blackrock that found that women find less joy in managing their investments. I found that interesting out. They're just like a women care less. They're less interested less intrigued by investing. And honestly i think that's okay. And and interestingly enough. I think i can even pay off for women i have interest can have a positive benefit. We'll talk about that in a second. I hope everyone listening to this. Podcast regardless of their gender starts to gain an interest in all things money and finds not just in saving their money but investing and growing that nest egg talk about how a tampered down. Enthusiasm can actually be more beneficial your investing success in the long run. Yeah so you're talking about joy right and so we're we're men might have a little more enthusiasm a little more a little bit more joy when it comes to managing their portfolios could actually maybe a little bit more misery the stock market in general and frequent trading specifically have historically been more of an obsession foreman kiplinger has reported that men trade stocks much more frequently than women and the more frequently We trade the worst. Our investments are going to perform. Men are getting a little too into investing by by getting into individual stocks. It's important for us to take calculated risks. Like these are things that we need to do. In order to see growth when it specifically when it comes to our portfolios but when you take too much risk and when you're too involved in the stock market and specifically when you're not exactly sure what you're doing that is going to lead to worst performance. Yeah we talked about that. Before matt more frequently people trade you might trigger tax consequences. You are in all likelihood going to be paying a fee win. You're trading stocks retail as well. There's just so many things to consider. And the more movement you make in your portfolio in all likelihood the worship going perform another thing too when we're talking about investing and how women and men respond well. An important thing to consider is that women live longer than men about five years longer on average according to stats from the cdc. So that means that they need to plan to invest For a longer time horizon that includes a greater willingness to invest more heavily in stocks. And if possible putting aside even more in retirement funds and. I know that that's actually hard matt. Considering that you know we just talked about how women earn less on average than men and yet they're gonna live longer and they need to save and invest more of their money. But it's so important in particular for women to be aware of this. I'm thinking about my grandma who's ninety and she having to make decisions about her financial future and she might still have ten twelve fifteen more years left to live and planning for a longer lifespan. Means investing early and often is just even that much more important exactly yeah and so regardless of your gender having savings as great right in fact it's crucial but remember that inflation is the enemy of your savings account like. That's the real enemy here over the past few decades we've seen inflation right at two and a half percent in regularly investing more of your income. That's going to give you important options for your future. You're not going to be able to preserve that money if you have it sitting in a savings account. That's not earning that inflation rate on. Both ends of the spectrum are sort of these extremes that we want to avoid. We can't completely avoid investing but we also don't want to become you know so preoccupied by it. We ended up shooting ourselves in the foot. Because we're jumping in and out of the market. We're trying to time it where we know we're dabbling and single stock investing when we don't know what we're doing again it's hard to find a balance but that's what we're trying to do here on how to money i think in particular investing is a place where men and women can both learn from each other. We could all stand to have some enthusiasm when it comes to investing but not too much that it causes us to go to complex with our investments or two disinterested where we don't invest and all right. I think there's a healthy approach to investing. Both men and women should be taking. That looks pretty similar. I think to matt like knowledge breeds confidence. It doesn't matter who you are. The more you know the more likely you are to make the right decisions for your own financial good and for your financial future and especially if you're in a relationship right. Both individuals need the confidence that more money knowledge provides too smart and savvy partner's coming to the table tackle. Their money goals together is going to have a really important impact trying to be the lone ranger. Managing your family's finances with a completely disinterested partner is gonna lead to some unhealthy. I think in the relationship. And i don't think it's that you both have to be just as interested or just as committed. It's okay if your spouse is more fascinated by the realme. I i'll finance van. You are but at the same time. I think it's really important for both members of that couple to be able to sit down together and talk about money in both of you to have a say in where that money's going. I think some of these statistics. Matt you and i have been relaying in. This episode. Actually reflects a level of unhealthiness. That is taking place when it comes to gender differences in how we approach personal finance and i would love it if in our lifetime. If in the coming decades we start to see men and women Both sexes handling money. Better each of them having seat at the table play more of a role in family finances. Because i think as we see there's like a balance it's needed when it comes to gender dynamics and personal finance and we're looking for balance soon not just between couples but just even within ourselves right ultimately men and women like they don't have as opposite of an approach as the headlines might make it seem like one gender is better than the other you know when it comes to how they handle their money men and women they might have some different psychological and historical seidel norms to overcome when it comes to achieving their financial goals but the actual path that we take as individuals should look more similar than dissimilar is important for everyone to have the right financial education and the tools necessary so that we're able to make the right decisions for our future when you look at the numbers. We could all do a much better job when it comes to our personal finances you know when it comes to money i feel like we need a sort of a renaissance of a personal finance interest in education in our country in order to raise the tide for everyone and i think we could all be doing a better job when it comes to our money. Yeah i think you're right. Man i think ultimately enter the questions should men and women handle money differently. I think the answer is no. We should all be working to earn more money. And no we're worth when it comes to our jobs we should all be looking to spend more cautiously with the money that we have we shall be saving more diligently and we should actually be investing and get interested enough in it to do it well and to do it consistently but not so interested. They're like yosemite. Sam when it comes to pulling the trigger on random investment sales and stuff like that but hopefully this episode provided some perspective for when it comes to maybe some of the tendencies that you experience in your own life with how you handle money and some of the ways to to move forward in a positive way most definitely man all right. Let's shift gears. Let's get back to the beer that we enjoyed on this episode. This one was called on cassette and this is a beer by new anthem. They are out of wilmington north carolina. What were your thoughts on this bearded man. This is delicious. I a little velvety. Some night. Like peach fuzz action. Going on soft mouth like that. I get that it was slightly sweet but it also had enough bitterness. That i just really appreciated. I think a lot of the new. Ip as can be overly sweet. But this one's still retained some bitter hop character that i really like having a beer but offered that inside the package of something that was more juicy and sweet and so yeah. I like the combo going on at the same time. Yeah that's right so this was a double ipa. And you know it's not like this is a bitter like a west coast bitter you know. And so for that reason. I like to describe it less as bitter and more as like sharp you know and so i feel like the hot flavors are really sharp pungent it was like so pungent because almost smoky like the because of the presence that was there. I've mentioned this previously on the show before but like it. It truly does remind me of like pungency that you get with a blue cheese or you put it in your mouth and you feel like. It's kind of fuming. A little like you can kind of feel it in your sinuses. A little bit. And i feel that's one of the characteristics of these new england. Ip as i can. I feel like i got hops in my sinuses. Which is would also probably be a pretty good name of a beer. Somebody will probably do it at some point. But i really enjoy the swing. Glad you. I got the shared on the episode and yeah new anthem. They're just always making some really good beers up there. And i realized this was the actual. I knew anthem beer. I think that we've had on the show. I looked in our little Beer catalog expecting to see. Maybe this one making sure that we hadn't had it before. And i didn't see that we have had a single anthem beer which was really confusing. Like maybe we've had a collaboration before within listener. Send us a beer from north carolina one time and it was a collaboration beer and i think new anthem was the other in that are like a. They showed up and helped out what else. It's been a minute though. So i don't remember but be glad we finally got to have a legit new anthem beer on the show and that's going to do it for this episode matt so for our listeners. Who want the show notes for this episode. Some of the links to some of the studies that we mentioned you can go to our website at how to money dot com. Yeah that's right up there on the website. We have a lot of different resources in also on the website. If you go to money dot com slash do better if you want to leave some feedback if you have some thoughts to share in particular on a topic like we discussed today you have whether it's a personal story or anecdote or just anything else you'd like to put in front of us we would love to hear from you. We're always interested in hearing what our listeners have to say. Just drop us a line and again that you are l. is how many dot com slash. Do better our buddy. Let's go to do it for this episode until next time. Best friends out as friends out With the kobe. Nineteen pandemic stolen. The rise and businesses needing to adapt entrepreneurs are moving to online courses. More than ever start your own online course and get in on the ground floor of the hottest entrepreneurial trend with thick think if it makes creating marketing and selling customized online courses. Simple drill your business by sharing your skills knowledge and talents with the world whether you are guitar teacher or a business coach. Think if it can help you reach an teach millions start selling your online course today at dot com that's think i f ic- dot com. How can you make money. That's the big question. Lot of people's minds right now as covert has changed how we think about doing business. Online training is skyrocketing across every industry and people are doing it with think ethic. Think if is your solution to sharing your knowledge skills. Passions and expertise with the world. Yeah think put your training and education content online putting you in complete control of how to build and deliver your courses. It's time to make the most of your business go to think if dot com today. That's think i. If i see dot com.

matt qualcomm pew research center Women ron saad julian saunders Ramiz sadie darabi wharton school of business joel storebrand university of cambridge Mr cooper costco north carolina
414: Jonah Berger | How to Change Anyone's Mind

The Jordan Harbinger Show

1:09:50 hr | 8 months ago

414: Jonah Berger | How to Change Anyone's Mind

"Coming up on the Jordan Harbinger. Show. So an eight year old boy eight year old girl goes up to a smoker on the street says have like and smokers do of course when you think they would do they said no way there's no way I'm giving you like you're a little kid. You should go run and play like it'll give you lung disease or give him for don't want to be healthy like no way am I giving you a cigarette and then at the end of the interaction that goes okay and they. Hand the smokers a piece of paper and all those piece of papers. Note that says, Hey, you worry about me but not yourself think about calling this quit line because again, rather than trying to persuade the smokers right saying, Hey, don't smoke. Thank you can do whatever you want but if you wouldn't give me a cigarette, why are you still doing it yourself at points out of gap between their attitudes and their actions or what they say they care about what they're recommending for someone else Welcome to the show I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. If you're new to the show we have in depth conversations with people at the top of their game astronauts, entrepreneurs, spies, psychologists even the occasional arms dealer neuroscientist and each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build. Deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker today on the show Jonah Burger is a professor at the Wharton School of business. One of the top schools in the nation he's an expert on word of mouth viral marketing social influence and how products ideas and behaviors catch on today will discover that humans have an anti influence, an anti persuasion system of course will. Also learn how to work around this hopefully for good this episode centers around persuasion especially as used in marketing an influence campaigns. We'll also learn why we don't even see influence in real time even when we're trained to do so and how we can sharpen ourselves to be more aware of influence attempts, subversive marketing, and of course, our own biases well, speaking of influence if you're wondering how. I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers and celebrities every single week it's because of my network I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at Jordan Harbinger, dot com slash course, and by the way, most of the guests on the show they subscribed the course they helped contribute to the course. So come join us you'll be in smart, company. Now here's Joan Berger. The last book I interviewed, you about was invisible influence last time you were on the show and this book, the catalyst actually in many ways similar. You know we start off with a little bit of persuasion and you note that most of the time we just hit the gas and tried to force our way to get someone to do something else. Right. If we want to persuade parenting is classic example I've got a nine month old kid so I don't have to do this yet but I distinctly remember my parents say. Why do you have to do it because I said say or you know this is with the way things are done and you have to do it that way and you just have to trust me because I'm your mom your dad and that's Limited in its effect especially, if those people were talking to our children, right so yeah. What alternative strategies are we looking at here short of field hypnosis? Yeah you know I. I was talking about a consultant who talked about this in a way that many of us can understand you know imagine you're presenting a meeting, right? So you had your pitching a group whether it's a client potentially even an internal meeting maybe pitching your boss and your team or their team on an idea and you're doing your best right you're giving lots of reasons why? They should do what you want them to do. You give them facts you're giving them figures or even the information you know you're giving them powerpoint slides, all the growth trajectories go up into the right everything looks wonderful and they're all sitting there and they're looking like they're engaged and at the end of the meeting they say, okay, we'll think about it and then they never get back to you. Because what they're really doing is they're sitting there thinking about all the reasons why what you're suggesting unfortunately is wrong I because essentially people whether they're kids whether their nine month old soon to be you know eventually two years older, they can talk a little bit more or whether they're that bossard client in the meeting we all have an ingrained anti persuasion radar essentially defense system that detects persuasion. Attempts. So when I realized that someone is trying to persuade whether it's a telemarketer, an advertisement or someone presenting in a meeting I engage in sort of set of defensive actions to protect myself against persuasion. I, avoid the message I ignore it. So you know maybe I hang up on that telemarketer, right delete the email or even worse I do what's called counter right I sit there and think about. All the reasons why what someone is suggesting? It's wrong I, poke and prod sort of like a high school debate team member, right I find all the flaws I, find all the holes and the argue eventually comes crumbling down and so I think the challenge for us as people trying to change minds whether it's our kids minds whether it's our clients mind our our bosses mind is not so. Much to persuade but to get people to persuade themselves one thing I talk a lot about in the reactions chapters really how can you shift the role of the person who's listening to you not you're pushing on them but you're involving them in the process they're participating in a way as a result or are much more likely to buy into what you're suggesting at the end and so happy to. Talk more about some specific strategies of how to do that. But that is a high level of sort of one of the principals right rather persuading people get them to persuade themselves rather than trying to sell them, get them to buy into what you're suggesting themselves and they'll be much more amenable to changing. It's funny thinking about this people are going. Oh, great. Okay. Get them to persuade themselves. Like when you let a kid think cleaning their room as their own idea a friend of mine who's also apparent parenting on the brain, which is probably, yeah he said my son just asked me how he can earn more legos because I texted him a photo of a bunch of legos I get sent a lot of stuff doing a show and I'm like my kids going to choke on these. You know it's like a castle set of legos that he can't use for a decade. Yes you know and I'm like, thanks it's a very kind gift, but this thing is going to be old and dusty and not cool ten years. They're all just like storing. It is just not even worth it at this point and again, the show fan who sent this to me I'm deeply thankful is just one of those things that non parents parents and they think this is awesome. Yeah she's GonNa love this toys, lots of lights and sounds also yeah I'm like you know every single one of these things can poke through skin and kill. So I'm just GONNA go ahead. Not Not let him have that anyway. So I took a photo of it and said it to my friend who's got little kids were appropriate age and he said you have my kid just asked me what he can do to earn more legos and I was like putting a pin in that because that's really one of those notes where you go a ha so he can say well, you can start to do more cleaning or something like that and kids like great. How about I clean my room the most obvious thing you're always asking yeah, good idea, and then maybe you can clean up your toys outside and all these little things to earn more legos. There's Also a dark side to this too recently, I was involved in a lawsuit and I don't know how much I can say about this or how much is a good idea to say about this. But one of the things that I did during the lawsuit was the other side was so predictably irrational and angry that it was easy enough to do something that would trigger them to do something that would then kind of either be something we wanted them to do or would paint them into a corner. Well, I don't want to give an example because then they're going to be I've been tricks, but you know they would they would do something and they go. Oh well. We're just going to do this now in my life and I just kind of sit there and chuckled because we really had to do is post this tweet and get him. So riled up that he would then pull this particular thing and then he ends up only having this one or two options left both of which are good for us, and so we started to do this and it doesn't trigger what you've called the anti persuasion radar. I don't know if you created that, but it's brilliant term people have this innate anti persuasion radar in once you trigger this, they don't want to be persuaded I'll let you explain it. You're the since I'm Jay interviewing you theoretically. I, mean, it's sort of like spidey sense someone described it that way and I think that's exactly right. If you detected incoming persuasion attempts and you then try to fight against it and that's when you're defenses go up and you know you avoid you ignore you counter argue but I think to what you're saying with the Legos to me that's a little bit like the carrot and the stick. If you do this, you'll get that which is great in some ways because as long as you have Legos, people will do something if they're desiring legos eventually though they're going. To want bigger things and eventually gonNA say well, if you don't like I'm not going to do it and so that's the challenge was sort of a carrot and the stick approach and what I would suggest instead whether you have kids or whether you're trying to change an adult's mind is ways to give people choice one way to provide what I'll call a menu, right. So go back to that example you're presenting in front of an audience rather than saying, Hey, here's what I'm suggesting. Give people choice say, Hey, which do you like better X. or Y. which of these? You know I'm suggesting one of these two courses of action, which is like and what it subtly does is it shifts the role of the audience because before the audience is going, I, don't like this. This is why I don't like this. This is why it's not gonNa work but when you give them a choice now they're sitting there going wait a second I've got a job I've got to figure out which of these two I like better and because that one, the anti radar doesn't have time to work because I'm focused on my new job, which is out which. I like and to because I'm figure out which one I like a much more likely to go along with one of them at the end of that meeting right? It's getting people a menu, but it's a small menu. It's choosing the choice set and line through choose from within that choice at because now, they feel invested in it and it works same thing with kids I. Mean I was talking to a parenting expert who talked about this from the kids in England you know Hey which do you want to do I, put on your pants or your shirt so To half year old and so recently went through some similar things myself and so it's not saying, Hey, do this and as I do this or I'll give you some legos saying which one of these do you WanNa do first right and then the kids not sitting there going well, actually I want option three to do neither of them they're saying which one do I wanna do I wanNA put my pants my shirt on, and now they're not thinking about the other options and they're much more amenable to doing what you wanted in the first place. So when People think they're being sold persuaded this anti persuasion radar kicks in defenses, go up and then suddenly people what shutdown or they just more skeptical and suspicious or is there like a complete shutdown? I'm trying imagining myself when I walk on the car lot and somebody's like doing the ASSUMPTA close in its third day on the job and it's all flunky and I'm like Dude I told you I'm not here to buy. You don't have to like do all I feel like I'm sort of embarrassed for them at some level just like I know you're doing your job. Not happening like you're not going GonNa help frame me come on I. Think a good way to think about it is often when we try to change minds, we assume some version of pushing will work right you add more information you add more reasons you tried emotional appeal. You do some sort of close us all these techniques that were all familiar with that often use some version of pushing and it's sort of clear why we think pushing works right? If there's a chair in the middle of her room and we WANNA move that chair pushing is A. Great Way to move that chair right we push on it and it goes the problem with people that we just talked about is when we push people, they're not like chairs they don't just go they in some sense dig in their heels at radar goes off and they don't just become sort of immobile or stop listening they push back and so I think a good way to think about it's almost imagine that chair sure if you're just pushing, there's nothing pushing back the chair goes but with people you start pushing them, they push back you push harder they. Push harder back and so they don't go anywhere and so really what this book is all about as Ravin pushing are finding more facts or figures reasons figure out what those obstacles are and removing them. Right figure out what's preventing someone from changing whether it's reactions because we're pushing them too hard or whether it's one of the others I'm sure we'll talk about later what are those barriers obstacles? Let's figure out how to get rid of them, and let's use that to help people be more willing to move. You mentioned the example of Public Health Messaging when it Comes to some of this and their kids eating tide pods I would love for you to talk about that just because the most ridiculous news story of was at twenty eighteen. Yeah. When I read it, I thought this is fake and then I went on Youtube and I went okay. I lost like five percent more faith in humanity. Yes. So I'll tell the story. It's also funny because when you think about these one offs, but it is indeed come back to a sort of release again. So Am I gonNA sure most of your listeners familiar with tide pods. They, eat them all the time. So little packets basically, they're you know one inch by one inch squares filled with all sorts of chemicals. You're probably not aware of the story behind type that's I'll I'll talk about the story so tied many years ago, wanted to make doing laundry and doing dishes and all these other things that procter gamble cares about easier. They started trying to come up with tablets or cubes basically people can toss in rather have to measure it failed the first iteration move forward a couple decades they come out with tied pause A. New version of them for laundry. No Muss no fuss. No measurement. You just toss him in they work. So titus thinking look this billion dollar laundry market is ripe for innovation. Let's spend over one hundred, million dollars in marketing. Let's launch these things and what we're really do quite well, and they did well for a little while typos reselling people were excited about them. Then as you noted, there was a problem and the problem very simply was people were eating them. Now you're probably sitting there going, what do you mean people? Eating them therefore chemicals, right? What right people eating no people were eating them. So there was some video on college humor. There was a piece on the onion. Suddenly you know eighteen year olds challenging each other on the Internet eat tide pods called the tide challenge got some traction obviously dangerous titus sitting there going well, what do we do and so they did what any corporation does. They told people not to do it. Right? They said, hey, donny type pots, and in case you don't believe us look we hired the celebrity. Rob Gronkowski and Rob Gronkowski comes along with his own video and says Johnny tide pods they're bad idea donate taipans. Okay. So they think this would be the end of it. Right? They make this message. They hope it will stop people from eating tide pods doesn't stop people from eating tide pods also doesn't have no effect even worse visits to poison control shoot up searches on the Internet shoot up over four hundred percent. Essentially a warning becomes recommendation tied telling people naughty tide pods make some more likely to do it why Is it because more people saw that and then thought wait you can eat Thai pods. I'm so mystified by this because one, I would never think to eat detergent capsule they do look tasty though I I will tell you they like their too brightly colored they need to make them dull looking in yes. The ones I put in my dishwasher they don't look tasty. They look like weird soap. Yeah. The tide pods you those things out and you're like this looks like a toy that I could play with and since it doesn't do anything but it soft the texture looks just right. It looks like it was that restaurant how So I kind of get that but I wouldn't do it because I'm an adult at then I if I see a celebrities say, Hey, know this is detergent do not eat this don't do it. Yeah. That would not encourage me. So what's actually happening here? This make sense to me. So couple things are important. So one certainly the case when people tell us not to do things we go screw you don't tell me what to do I'm going to do it anyway right. So you know you're a teenager your parents tell you not to date someone you know someone tells you not to do something you're like Ooh I WANNA see why did They tell me not to do it and so in Sunday is an advertisement makes people realize exists and makes them interested in it but the opposite is also true right telling people to do something makes them less interested in doing it thing about you know steph around the corona virus where they said you know stay at home where a mask do this you know this essential public health message has been doing for decades a good thing do it if it's a bad thing, don't do it and assuming that just telling people what to do will change behavior the problem with that does it impinges on people's ability to see their choices driven by. Themself, right that's a core. What reactions is right we WANNA see that we're in the driver's seat. Why did I buy this car use this detergent make this choice I did it because I wanted to. But as soon as you whether you are the government whether you are tied whether you are a friend or a boss whoever it might be as soon as someone tells me what to do now it's not clear whether I'm doing something because I wanted to do it or because they told me to do it, and because of that uncertainty I don't know whether it's me or them I say, well, screw it I'm not GonNa do it because It could be not driven by me. I'M NOT GONNA do it or an entire case more likely to what people say don't pinch impinge on my freedom and autonomy and don't tell me what to do. I'm going to do it anyway, and that reactions is really what drives these things how is it different than regular advertising though because ads come on all the time where celebrities will say something like drink white clouds so tasty and fund or whatever you know this I don't even know if I'm supposed to talk about this. This is a joke advertisement for an alcoholic beverage I want to you know get in trouble for this but that works advertising. Works you know hey, look by this thing it's. So how can we don't have reactions to that like? Yeah. Well, let's be careful right. So what are we comparing advertising to right and so if we compare you know hundred million dollar advertising campaign to no advertising at all one, hundred, million dollars if advertising's make a lot of people aware that something exists a super bowl ad, right? It makes a lot of people aware that something exists that doesn't mean all those people go and buy it right and you know my first book contagious was all about how word of mouth is much more powerful in advertising? Why? Because we know advertiser convincing us? Trying to convince US or radar goes south gender in our best friend says, Hey, I had a white cloud last week and it was delicious I don't know if your best friend would say that hopefully not. But imagine they said that we're not GONNA go you're trying to sell me some waclaw we're going Oh, you're trying to help me out. So my radar system doesn't go off and so much more influenced by a friend or I know telling me something appear than an ad and so reactions happens for most ads. It's just that so much money is spent on advertising in some cases that even above and beyond the reactions that happens it has. A little bit of an impact. But if there wasn't so much reactions, the ADS would actually have much larger impact than they do already interesting. So we see certain types of advertising get less effective over time probably because reacting goes up right. So like nine, hundred, ten dentists, right the thing about the first time, not at a ten dentists came out someone. So convinced Lau dentists must really like this. Now all of us sit there go no way like you paid a bunch of people. This isn't true I'm not going to believe, yeah or just anything that's advertised as always approved by nine out of ten. So it becomes like table stakes to have. that. Yeah, I mean you know you see the people in American are united. Airlines it look like they're having a wonderful flight having a great time I see that and I go man I've never been on that flight like I would love to go on that flight on that flight there on time they didn't lose the bags customer service people are Nice like I'm on the flight where they don't care about you you. You know they lost your seat they lost your bag in the fight is two hours late but the ad makes it look wonderful and so I, think the first time sometime his appeals work but people are smart the second the. Time, they definitely don't work they decrease in effectiveness in part because reactives and yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Kelly macgonagall was on the show a little while ago and she mentioned his anti-smoking smoking and alcohol campaigns can increase consumption. Apparently tied campaigns can also increase consumption. She mentioned that those black lungs on cigarette packs and I don't know if they do this in the United States in Asia and other countries they will put like a disgusting photo of like an autopsy lung or heart or both on the pack. It's one of the most disgusting photos you could see and it's printed right on the pack and I thought well, that works on me like I'm already a non-smoker if I even thought about it like if I've had too many whiskeys someone's like, Hey, come outside smoke with us icy that PAT come out and I don't even want to be standing here you when you have to continue the conversation I'm GonNa, go wait and inside because it's but they just are unaffected by it in Kelly's research macgonagall says research. Shows that this actually increases consumption, which is like really kind of a bummer. Yes. Salsa a couple of things. So first of all, there's a bunch of researchers looked into smoking and other related campaigns. You know some of it is found what called backfiring facts in part because they're like advertisements, right? So you think about the old don't do drugs campaign say no to drugs right of sort of the nineteen eighties of potentially you know one's youth and a lot these campaigns they said, hey, you know there's some kids. At School, they're gonNA. Ask you to try drugs and you should say, no right and if you're a twelve year old kid, you're going I drugs, I didn't know these things existed right? Are they second? Other people are using them and it's the cool kids at school will maybe I should check those things out and so it deals a little with norms. Right says, Hey, don't do this because other people are doing it. That's one thing I think another thing I would say though is there are ways around this. A great smoking campaign. I. Talk About in the book from Thailand from this group called the Thai Health Promotion Foundation since it quit lined help people to quit smoking and and similar to what you said. You know as we don't need to give smokers information smokers aren't sitting there going man the reason I'm smoking because I think it's good for me right? Right. That's not what smokers are thinking. Yeah. I read an ad from fifty and it said that this is good for your. Yes. They leased to advertise like, oh. This will help you clear your throat out. Definitely, helped clear throw it out one way or the other. Yeah. So the AD is something interesting campaign to something interesting. They have a smoker on the street they come up to smokers and they asked the smokers for light and which something that most mercury. Yes. Of course. But it's not a regular person asking the smoker for light it's an eight year old kid. So an eight year old boy, an eight year old girl goes up to a smoke on the street says, can I have a light and smokers do of course what you just think they would do they say no way there's no way I'm giving you a light like your little kid should go run and play like. Lung disease emphasis don't you want to be healthy like no way am I giving you a cigarette by the way very clear that smokers know more about the health effects of cigarettes than doctors do right they're. They're very happy to list all the reasons why you shouldn't smoke and then at the end of the interaction, the kid goes okay and they hand the smokers, a piece of paper and all those piece of papers in note that says, Hey, you worry about me. But. Not Yourself think about calling this quit line. This campaign goes viral millions of US on the Internet 'cause line up forty percent. But it's an example of a much broader principle called highlighting a gap because again, rather than trying to persuade this saying, Hey, don't smoke. Thank you can do whatever you want but if you wouldn't give me a cigarette, why are you still doing it? Yourself points out of gap between their attitudes and their actions or what they say they. Care about what they're recommending for someone else essentially, people want those two things to be in line. If I see, I care about the environment than I should recycle anytime attitudes and our actions don't line up it creates cognitive dissonance. I'm sitting here going man I, say one thing. But I'm doing something else I got to figure out how to make those things fit and often people change their behavior as a result and so a great way to change behaviors to highlight. Gap. Hey. You know you might want to go outside and do whatever you want and not wear masks, but would you want your grandparents do that? Would you want your younger brother and sister to do that? Okay. If you wouldn't want them to do it then why are you doing it yourself? Not Telling People Hey, do these things but making them rise wait if I wouldn't want someone else to do it that I care about. Why should I be doing something different You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Joan. Berger. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by chilly pat I started using this because I prioritize my sleep more when you have a kid you got to sleep when you can and if you're not prioritizing your sleep, you're not prioritizing your overall health sleep is when your muscles repair your brain detox is your body works on cellular renewal and if you're too hot, you sleep poorly that's chilly pad comes in it's a climate controlled mattress topper. 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If you're anything like me, you have no idea how to come up with a quality logo or creative design. That's why my show like a picture of me speaking on stage for five freaking years design crowd is a website with more than half a million designers ready to help you create your perfect custom design. What you do is you post a brief describing what you need. They invite seven hundred and fifty thousand plus design crowd designers from around the world to submit you get a few designs within a few hours within a week you get like sixty one hundred different designs from designers around the world. You, pick the ones you like best boom you pay that designer, and if you're indecisive like me, you can send a link to have your friends family. You can even email jen she loves voting on these designs will vote on the ones we like best. There's tons of uses for this. If you're an entrepreneur startups small business dentist accountant photographer you. Can Get web design logos, business card. It's great for crowd sourcing and getting different ideas checkout design crowned dot com slash Jordan D. E., S. P. N. C. R. O. wd DOT COM FORD SASS Jordan to learn more and receive receiver Jordan Harbinger show VIP offer when you start your next project and now back to a burger on the Jordan, harbinger? Show. It seems so obvious. But of course, like addiction is complex, right? There's like a compulsion for this but you said that campaign was extremely effective. Yes. Yeah. So what are we trying to? Reduce cognitive dissonance or like smash them so hard with the obvious facts that they can no longer reconcile these two ideas and there had it. Let's be very careful. We're not smashing with the facts even better is if they smash themselves, right I think about is sort of guiding a journey guided choices or. Journey we're not telling them what to do raw telling them don't smoke when not tell them where mask we're not telling them adopt this product or service were giving them choices or asking them questions were raising ideas and letting them make the decisions. But because we're guiding that journey in the right way, we're not saying, Hey, do whatever you want were sending a eight year old kid to talk to smokers, but we're not sending them. Tell not to smoke were encouraging them to figure it out themselves. Right. We're using them and because they're participating in that conversation, they're much more likely to change at the end of it because they decided at themselves again, we're not persuading them they're playing a role in the process. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense again like having them make this decision for themselves you mentioned the book about how choice and control make us happier more content let's. Discuss this a little bit because of course, there's these vague ideas of autonomy and things like that. We don't wanNA feel influenced. What is it about choice and control that we as humans seem to be hardwired to do? Yeah. I. Mean. I think the best one I often like think about as we like to be in the driver's seat, right? Like we like to feel like a choice is ours like we are guiding our destiny we're. Guiding our journey. We are making decisions. You know there's obviously work on too much choice that says you know too much choice can be overwhelming people too many options. They don't make a decision, but with need is if even in those studies, if you look at those studies when they ask people, do you want choice people always say yeah of course, right? Even when choices bad. Even when there's so many options, we feel overwhelmed we prefer. Having the choose rather than not having that option because we don't want to feel like someone else's making the decision for us there. Lots of great studies that look at this even terrible choices that make people feel horrible for making them. They rather have them making those choices than a doctor making those choices for example, because they wanNA feel like they're in control. So even when it's worse for us, we love that sense of control what kind of choices you mean like to like, there's great studies that have been done. So she and I garden a bunch of great work in this area. But you know they'll take people an asset to imagine that you know you have a young child that has a disease and you know I have to figure out whether to take them off a ventilator or not, and if you take them off the ventilator, they'll die but if you. Leave them on the ventilator. They'll probably be brain dead won't have a great life, which will you choose and people hate this choice, right? It makes them feel stressed out and badly. But if ask a second set of people, Hey, do you want to make this choice to take your child off the ventilator not or do you want a doctor to make this choice? Most people say well, I wanNA make the choice of course I wanNA. Make the choice. This is such an important choice. Why would I give it up for a doctor I to have control over what's going to happen my kid even though it's going to make me miserable by the way I don't think about that and even though the doctor might make a better choice by the way I. Don't think about that. I don't WanNa, give up that feeling or freedom that the chance that I'm driving my destiny. and. So even when it's a terrible choice like that one, we wanna feel like the choices hours even if it makes us worse off. So we don't WanNa feel influenced even when it's complex right because I almost would feel my gut says I want somebody else to make that choice that way I can sort of rationalize that I didn't really have a choice right that this was something so bad that I that I couldn't do. Anything about it not like I chose to pull my aunties life support system. Oh, I didn't have a choice I would want to almost rationalized that that was the case I think if someone said, hey, the way we usually do it is that we choose but if you really want to choose, you would love that situation say great go ahead and do it. But if the situation was reversed said, hey, it's your choice but by the Way If you want us to choose we can then we're not going to give it up. We feel badly about giving up the opportunity to choose even though sometimes we have a sense, it might make us worse off. It's really hard for us to let it go even think about it. Right people love going to stores with no choice people love healthcare plans to give them more options even though because those things have more options they. End Up choosing plans that are worse for them after all because they they like the sense of choice in the feeling of choice more than they actually like choosing itself. Now that makes sense. Now you mention to reduce reactions we can allow for are we we're allowing for agency essentially the first example you gave in the book was providing menu and you mentioned this before where it's do you want put on your shirt? I your pants. I or whatever the example was the do you want to wear the yellow pajamas blue pajamas before you go to bed right now that kind of thing what other options and techniques do we have to reduce reacting to reduce react instead allow people to decide for themselves? What is they want to do? So we talk about providing right giving people some choice. We also talked a little bit of what I call highlighting the gap or pointing. Out A gap between their attitudes and their actions. So that's like the ties smoking thing. Yes. Yeah and you think about the same thing at the office right now someone's wedded to an old project it's not working it's losing money, but they don't want to give it up rather town. Hey, we need to close this project, show this project saying something like would you recommend someone else start a project like this and they'll probably know. Given. What I know now, I wouldn't want to start it again and they can say, Oh, why are we still doing it then right? If you wouldn't recommend someone else's doing it again, asking them rather than telling them and outside of highlighting a gap I would say that's another principle that I that I talk about their which is asking rather than than telling. So you know one example of this, there was a startup company and the. Book that I talked to a startup founder and he was trying to get people to work harder and put in more hours, work weekends, and of course, you tell people work weekends they say, thanks but no thanks I don't WanNa work weekends. So instead, he had this sort of all hands meeting where he was like, Hey, guys what kind of startup do we want to be do want to be a good startup or a great startup? And everyone knows how to answer that question everyone goes we want to be a great start. Yeah right and then he goes okay. Well, what do we need to do to get there and so people start talking about it and they start coming up with ideas and they start making suggestions and then later on when he implement some of those suggestions, it's a lot harder for them. One of those suggestions by the way was putting in more hours. It's a lot harder for them not to. Do it because essentially they've committed to the conclusion, right? They said, hey, we need to put in more hours. I? Say, Great. That's what you came up with. Let's do it. So it's sort of forces them to put a stake in the ground by asking questions. Again does a couple of things one it shifts the role of the listener from think about why they don't like what you suggested to come up with what they think. You should do which they're more than happy to do. Right? It's. It's their ideas. So they're really happy about those ideas. But then later when you go ahead and say great I like your idea let's do it. They can't say well, I don't want to because they came up with it and so again, asking rather than telling telling pushes react ends asking gets them involved allows them to participate and makes them much more bought in so that later when you? Roll out something they WANNA. Do they're happy to go along with it? Yeah. This reminds me of a concept that Chris Voss whose an FBI hostage negotiator had mentioned on the show before were he's got this sort of magical question where how am I supposed to do that and you kind of let the hostage taker figure out how you're supposed to do this thing or come up with ideas on How to solve the problem that way later on, they're not thinking you're forcing me to do this right. It's their idea on how to get through the situation without getting shot by police or whatever the situation might happen to be. I WANNA highlight something with providing menu though as well when we don't provide multiple options, people poke holes in the single option, which can you to speak to this Because I. Think this magical when it comes to sales, presentations or parenting gave the example you gave him the book Broccoli or chicken poking holes in that single option I've noticed this so many times when I, even when I talked to my own team about something if I bring them an idea that thousand things that are wrong with it if I bring them three ideas, they just pick one we. Go on with their lives. Yeah and again it's involving them in the process right it shifting their role I. Think we talked a little bit about this ready but it's shifting their role from shooting down that any persuasion radar shooting down what you came up with, which was their job when you're presenting one option to switching their old say okay which of these do you think is best okay. Hold on now, I have a different job. I've got to compare these different options I've got think about them in terms of which I think is best. So I've got a job I like having a job I like feeling like someone cares about my opinion I like having choice I like feeling free to make those choices but now I'm spending a lot less time thinking about what's wrong with each Of these options more time spending thing about what's right and less time think about which options are not on the table because obviously there are more than three options in any situation there might be ten or fifteen or twenty options. But because you focus on a few and all of them seem like decent options, they focus on those and are more likely to choose one at the end back. To the earlier point about hostage negotiators using some of this start with understanding was something where I think even in the book, you give the example of crisis or hostage negotiators using this. I'd love to hear about this. This is something basically anything you can use when somebody's got a machine gun aimed at crowd caters is something you can use with teenagers. So this is going to be widely applicable. Even though it sounds like it's not going to be yeah. You Know One interesting thing about this book I did sort of the usual set of interviews, right? So I interviewed top performing salespeople and leaders of organizations and great bosses and start founders and that sort of stuff. But I also interviewed hostage negotiator Substance Abuse Counselors, Guy who got a grand dragon of the KKK to announce. The KKK. I talked to a lot of people I've talked to people change political parties. I talked to a lot of interesting folks outside of the normal type of people I would speak to, and it was neat to see in a parenting expert was neat to see the same principles at work in different areas under slightly different names or approaches and so starting understanding I think is sort of simple but. We often don't think about it and you know one of the Hosh associated eaters I talked to spoke about this a lot. Where said you know often novice negotiators want to jump to the end they want to start with influence I. Want you to come out with your hands up or you know if you're at your kids, I want you to eat your vegetables if it's your boss I. Want you to implement this project. They jump right to what they want and listeners people are trying to change go hold on no thanks, and they do all the reactions things we talked about and so what he said that sort of season negotiators do as they start with understanding, they start by figuring out who is the person I'm trying to change why are they here? What is the problem and? If I, understand them how can I make it easier to change them you know if you go to the doctor's Office for example and you go in with a problem, the doctor doesn't say okay let me give you a cast for your foot at the doctor starts by saying okay. What's your issue Lemme ask them questions let me figure out what the problem is. So I can actually solve It and so doctors thinking about that as a diagnostic hostage negotiator talk about the same thing in this guy was saying he starts every interaction with hi, my name is this. Are you okay and he starts asking the person questions to get a sense of why that person is there in the first place and I'll share a story which I. Think is really revelatory. It's one I hope none of. US have to be in, but I think it. It really shows us idea starting with understanding. He was talking guy who's thinking about committing suicide. It was a father who had a couple of young kids. He had lost his job. He had no way to provide for his family, but he had a big insurance policy and any thought look if I kill myself, this insurance policy will pay off it'll. Take care of my family not how insurance works by people yeah. Yeah and that's part of the challenge because the hash go she wants to come and say, Hey, man, you kill yourself insurance won't pay off. I did my part here. Thanks to you. Later persons in such a state that they may still kill themselves. Right? You can't just jumped in front. So instead he comes he's you know hey. Are you. Okay. What can I get you? How can I help you? How can we work together all sorts of stuff and he starts a conversation start Spanish standing you know what's going on you know what are you worried about? Oh you know I can't provide for my family. Okay and so it doesn't say the the insurance policy won't pays off his. Okay. Clearly, he sees the person cares about their family tell me about your family. Oh I've got two young kids. Oh, you seem to care about them lot. Yeah. Though great boys I take them fishing I'm trying to raise them to be gentlemen all these different things starts the guy on a conversation at the things that the guy cares about and as part of the conversation, he's learning a lot about why the guys there he's learning about what the guy cares about what the guys worried about all this different things you know tell. Me About, your boys tell me what they do and he gets to a place in the conversation hostage negotiator where he goes. Oh well, it sounds like you care a lot about your kids and the guy goes yeah, I do and then the Hash Lico she goes and this is when he makes his move he goes. Well, if you kill yourself, your boys are gonNA lose the best hero they've ever had doesn't tell the person not to. Do Anything doesn't tell them what to do just again, guides that journey because now he's raised something right? He's raised something that the person sitting there going wow I. Actually, that's pretty powerful. Maybe I don't. WanNa do what I wanted to do originally doesn't tell them, but he starts with understanding he gathers information that allows him to get to that point and so the same thing can be true with customers people talk a lot in in marketing about. Interest starting with the customer too. Often we use the same pictures of the same appeals with everyone. The better we understand why someone is in the situation and what they need, what the barriers are I use all the time in consulting projects. Let's figure out what's stopping someone from buying your product or service. Let's identify those barriers and remove them by starting with that understanding. We can really encourage change to happen in the book also, you discuss concepts. Like loss aversion in this is commonly discussed, but we can refresh here. Why is it that we're so afraid to lose things versus the prospect of gaining something it almost seems like the opposite because you see people doing such stupid things like gambling buying lottery tickets I mean where's loss aversion when people are dumping ten percent of their income even though they're below the poverty line into lottery tickets? Yeah. It seems like I'm missing that part of the equation. Yes. So I think a good way to think about it is talk about a study that was done many years ago with mugs and it could be anything. It's not important that it's a mug can be whatever product or service you want it could be selling a home, but the study was done with mugs and so I'll talk about it that way and so you know imagine I show up and say, Hey, thanks for doing this interview. Really. Appreciate it by the way, here's a Mug of Coffee Mug. It's and coffee mug. It has award logo on it. You can use it hold coffee or tea or whatever you want. It's a beautiful new say thanks that's great and you take them home and then I call you a couple of days later and I say, Hey, I have someone who wants to buy a Mug like that. How much would they have to pay you to sell that? MUCK Ask. You your price to give up this thing that you already have to give up something you've been using a how much would have to pay you to give it up and you might give a number like eight, nine, ten dollars or whatever it is. Your evaluation that Mug is eight to ten dollars something like that. If I put you in a second scenario though why didn't give them? I just said, Hey, here's a coffee mug. It's a mug coffee tea whatever same situation but now it's not yours you're thinking about buying. Do you have a Ross mug instead of a warden? Muck? I can find I find whatever muggy like. Michigan guy don't really our and I have a number of friends that went to Michigan I'm happy to get your harassment but ask you how much you would pay for that. Mug. Same Mug same thing you would say about half the amount you would say, maybe four dollars, maybe five dollars something like that same mug same uses but because it's not yours already you value it lasts and that's a lot of what the research shows censured shows what's called a status quo bias or the endowment effect the stuff we're doing. We like it a lot because we're already doing it. It feels safe. We know what it's like. We become attached to it. It's hard to let it go new stuff is costly. It's hard to give up old things because we say, Oh, this is all the stuff I'm giving up, and we way the things we're giving up more than the stuff or getting, and so we become attached to the old things and unwilling to shift to the new ones, and this is a huge problem when it when it comes to change. Whenever trying to change someone's mind trying to get them to do something I was trying to get them to give up that old people talk a lot about this and relationships they say, Oh, you know dating someone but I'm not sure. But you know I'm just really worried that I'm not going to be able to find some right exactly. The switching costs are what's involved you're both uncertain about the. New thing but you're also attached to that old thing that old thing is not perfect. But because you know it feels a lot safer and so we tend to stick with it even in cases when we shouldn't do switching costs loss aversion, do they go up the longer? We have something because I'm thinking about relationships where it's like, yeah they're slashing each other's car tires and like you know putting. Ex Lax in each other's breakfast cereal and they're like, but I don't know it's been twenty years. Why I can't go back out on the market like they're more afraid to be alone is sort of the conventional wisdom but it's also just loss aversion it's not necessarily more well, I guess that's part of loss aversion. Right? There are more afraid to be alone. It's like a component of it. Yeah. But there's also just that familiarity and it's like no matter how awful this person is you've sort of rationalized their behavior because you just don't WanNa make the switch even if it's your frigging tennis partner the show up half an hour late every time, and like forget once a week that you have a match or a game in. Their in their knowing don't WanNa hear about it anymore. You're still not gonNA switch but ask someone nil. Yeah I think both things are true. It's both that were uncertain about new things and new things are risky and we're attached old ones the the longer you live in a home for example, the more you value that home of and beyond market price because it becomes hard to imagine giving it up and so loss aversion happens anytime we switch from an old thing to a new things happen to me when I was buying a new phone right I had an old phone was running out of memory you know it couldn't do. Things I couldn't start anymore photos on it I kept onto it. Why was it holding onto it because it a small footprint and all the new phones had a larger footprint. Now that is true. The new phones did have a larger footprint. They also had better memory better camera more storage space yet I stuck to the old one because I didn't want to give up the small footprint, which is a loss even though there were all these other gains lots of research often shows that gains have to be two times the size of losses to get us to give up old things, and anytime we're asking people to make a switch whereas. Him To give up an old thing for a new thing, and so they tend to focus on what they're losing right Oh. Yeah. This person is imperfect but I would lose these things Radin think about all the good things they would gain from something new. So how do we get people past switching costs pass loss aversion, -hension, two ways one surface, the cost of inaction, and to burn the ships I. Think one sort of seems really clear but I'd love to hear you explain how these work and how we can do them in practice because burning the ships maybe a little tougher impracticality these. Yes. Yeah and I love the servicing the. Cost of inaction think in writing this book. That's one thing I've learned a lot about and I've tried to apply in my personal life and the basic idea here, I think is best illustrated in in terms of injuries right? So which do you think would hurt you more a minor injury or a major one? So our injury like I don't know you sprain your knee sprained ankle or major injury like shattered kneecap or or you break your ankle, and if you're like most people, you probably say, well, of course, the major injuries lot worse right I have to go to surgery and have to go to Rehab and all these. Other things the minor injury is not that bad i. mean that's what everyone says and they're wrong and the reason why the wrong is when you have a major injury, you do a lot of work to fix it. You do that Rehab you do that serve you do all those things. If you have a minor entry below the threshold of change, you never go get that sprained ankle fixed. You Never GonNa get that weird sorta shoulder tweak you have you never get it fixed and because that over time it caused you a lot more pain than it would otherwise each amount of pain is a small amount but aggregated over time it's. A lot worse, and that's the idea of surfacing the cost of an action. We think that a problem isn't that big and eat it's not that big right if we're using an old software product that's not as good as a new one, it's not that big of a deal but adding each of those things actually is a big deal. So that's partially what change agents catalysts have to do is after surface those costs as actually opened with a cousin with mine I was talking to him he's talking to every time. He sends an email. He right at the bottom of that email has email signature. So you know regards Charles every single. Time or best Charles every single time and I was like, why don't you just program that is part of your email signature like every time you have to write that it'll just save you time and he was going. Yeah. But it's two seconds like each time is only two seconds like why would I take the time to change it and I don't know how to change take me five minutes to figure out how to change it and five minutes is more than two seconds. It's I'm not gonNA, do it it's honestly aggravating hearing this. This guy sounds super annoying play didn't your cousin, but we do this all the time I know. This maybe we can't see it but we do it all the time because that's the minor injury. Yeah. That to second thing. Yes it would take more time to get it fixed or ignoring that's going to bother us the entire. It's like you know if you have a cockroach infestation for a couple of flies in your house, cockroaches get fixed got infestation you get a fix it's Terrible Alpa flies you don't get fixed, but they stick around much longer than you think and so we have to do is you have to turn it from a minor injuries or major one was talking. I'm trying to get him to change finally go hey, how many emails descended day because I don't know forty emails how many you send a week? He goes I don't know two. Hundred three hundred emails. Okay. So how much time do you spend every week or every month right here emails saying attorney does the math. Then he goes online and he looks how to automate the email signature because each time was only two seconds but are across a week a month. Made it clear that actually wasn't a minor injury it was a major one it surfaced that entire. Cost and action make him realize. Wow. Yes. It'll take me more time now than each individual time, but it's worth doing the hard work to fix it now to make it cheaper or less effort for later on and so it's making people realize the status quo might seem safe it might seem easy but it's neither a safe or as easy or as cost less as they might think. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Jona. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by five I use this website all the time whenever I need little knickknacks done like, Hey, can someone clean up this email lists? Can They format this spreadsheets? There's so much going on right now in twenty twenty your business can plan for the unexpected you don't have to haggle with pricing they got freelancers for pretty much anything you can think of graphic design copywriting web programming film editing again I find everything I need on here for these little one off tasks and you can customize your search by service deadline price Selah reviews you don't have to haggle you. 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We've got a worksheet for today's episode that link is in the show notes at Jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast, and now for the conclusion of our episode with Joanna Burger That make sense although I can imagine he sits thirty does the math on how long that's going GonNa take which took much longer than actually just solve the problem. That is true. Yes. Also business school professor because it's So yes horrible performance generates action average performance generates complacency the way that you phrased or paraphrasing from the book. Yeah and there's a Jim Collins quote to says the nicest like you know we don't have great schools because we have good schools we have good solutions. We don't have great ones if something's good enough, we tend not to change it, but often impedes us from getting to something better and so part of servicing the cost of an action or any of these solutions around endowment are is making people realize look you should do something now because it's not as cautiously you might think yeah fema other. Particularly, painful from the book is the investing and I see so many people our age younger in Twenties Thirties and they're just they won't invest their money. They don't really know what to do. They feel like they can't learn it. So they just like you said before keep things in a savings account or do something that is just sort of moderate. So they're combining loss aversion with the nurse of yeah. What is it good? Is. The enemy or greatest the enemy of the good something like that? Good as it. Sorry I forgot they're sitting there going hey, like losing any money savings account so I should just keep it in my savings account, right? Yes. They're not losing money but compared to the stock market they are losing money and so res- because you sort of alluded to you know I tell the story of an investment professional in the book? Who basically made a calculator over time? They're showing how much for client was losing by not investing in the market and he kept going what do you mean? I'm not losing money making money and she was going yeah. Compared to this other option. You're actually losing money and each period each day or week you're not losing that much money but over the course of a month or six months or a year you're actually losing. A lot of money and so surfacing that cost by saying, Hey, you know you're forgoing thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars by doing this thing, it makes it more real it frames that has a loss rather than a gain which encouraged people to take action. Good is the enemy of the greatest the quote I was looking for searching for back. There before I would love to talk about why we don't see in. One of your earlier works you gave the example of your dad is a DC lawyer and he had bought a BMW just like every other DC lawyer and but he was like, well, Mine's blue, right so yeah, it's like we don't even notice the influence and I can give you an example even current from my own life I thought okay, I'm GonNa name my son Jaden that's really unique. I don't hear it anywhere else and it's just something I've liked for a long time and that's it and then my friends after he was born, we're like hold on I hate doing this. I gotTA. Send you this article and it was like a blog post and titled all of Your Friends From High School. Now have a son named Jaden and it wasn't something he had made as a joke. It was like actually in some popular blog and I I just sat there kind of quietly shaking my head and I was like I've been tricked. Yeah. I've been had been because if that name is so popular that it's become an actual cliche and I didn't even notice it and I thought this is unique. I will never have this problem like I do with my own. Yeah. This happens a lot with names. I've done some research on names and part for exactly the reason you suggested, which is we all choose names and we're all choosing them to be different. Some sense right? We want to be a little unique. We don't want our kids to have the same name as everyone else yet often we get to first grade or second grade or whatever it is, or in this case, there's a blog post and we find that lots of people have done the same thing and so it's weird situation where everyone wants to be different yet they all end up doing the same thing how could that be imparted? That is because influence often happens invisibly it often happens without our awareness of it. If you ask me I'm wearing a grey shirt at the moment you you asked me, why did I buy this shirt? I'll give you a story I was at the store and I saw this gray shirt and I like gray 'cause I'm Pale person, and this is why like it I'll give you a story whether that stories actually the reason why about it is often unclear and actually a lot of the reasons why Bader things I may not be aware of right I may have seen a whole bunch of people wearing grey shirts and I don't even. Remember that's actually the case but that shifted my behavior, there's a lot of research on something called the mirror exposure factors basically shows the more you see something more you like it a waiter to explain it is songs all the time the first time you hear a song, you hate it on the tenth. Time you love it and couldn't imagine ever hating it even though you did the first time because the more you hear it the more familiar it sounds and the more familiar with sounds easier it is to process, and so you got all this is this feels pretty good this like something I I know and understand and and so. I like it, and so the challenge with influences were often not aware of how it works on us and how it shapes other people's behavior and without being aware of how it works without seeing it. It's really hard to harness its power and nobody wants to admit they're vulnerable or susceptible to this stuff right? Like it's I sat there shaking my head although it matters not one iota if there's another Jaden in his class, it really doesn't. It's just the reason I sat there feeling bad about myself for a second was because it's like I should know better I do a show about critical thinking and that's like I should have had. This but that's the point of influence is like it is so invisible. It's kind of like saying you're no one is above this it's like saying, well, I'm a doctor who studies the lungs so I don't need to breathe that anymore right like it's just ridiculous. You just not immune to this at all and you know just to be clear I mean I've written books about influence and change and you know overcoming uncertainty and lots of people my personal life love to joke about how I'm terrible at these things I just because we study them doesn't make us immune to these issues and influence in particular we hate to see ourselves As influence I because we don't see it, there's that old quote from like the Devil Wears Prada, I think that movie where this woman comes in wearing a certain sweater and she feels like she chose herself again, she wants to feel freedom and control like she's in control of it and they say actually the reason you bought this was on the catwalk three years ago, and then it made its way down to the bargain bin at target where you picked it out you know we don't see all that machinery happening, and so we think we just like it we don't realize it but also because particularly American culture being influenced as a Bad thing particularly and and sort of Western culture people like to feel like they're free like their independent like they make their own choices. We talked a lot about reactives right? We liked to fact we're in control, and so we don't want to think that we were shaped by anyone else because that would be a a negative thing. Right we all like to thank you know where unique special snowflakes were not like anybody else when really were actually very similar to other people around us and our are shaped by the same bias we're affected by trends permanent things in our environment, the concept of priming and I'd love to sort of discuss. This a little bit because I think there's an exercise that you have done before we won't do it on air now but you read this list of words, and then you tell a story and the list of words effects how you perceive the person in the story and nobody really puts this together. But Priming is everywhere we see priming used. Why don't you tell us I mean this is something that brands do. It's something that we experience all the time when we're in different places physically it's a fascinating concept that I think we could probably use to our advantage, but also helps to become aware of because it's one of the primary. Levers for exerting influence on others. Yeah. I mean I think a good way to think about it is we don't think about everything all the time we only have so much brainpower. We only have so much attention which mental capacity, and so we tend to think about certain things at certain moments of time other things at other moments in time. But by shaping what things people are attending to or thinking about or mulling over in their mind, we can shape the decisions they make. So imagine, for example, a simple. Model. Of Choice right where you are you're thinking about buying a new car and you have different levers like price and how much fun it is, and it's gas mileage and all these different sort of weights that you can put on different attributes well, what the salesman talks about or what an ad talks about what your spouse talks about right. Before you look at those cars may shape how you evaluate them. You care about all the different dimensions but if one person focuses you on a specific dimension, you spent A. Lot of time thinking about that one and sort of has an overweight or an over impact on your judgement you talked about the example I shared in the book about kind of how words or story could influence judgment people. You know the same behavior can seem exciting and or risky in bad. The same thing can seem like a good idea a bad idea depending on what Lens you you look at it through, and so we're priming is really about is how can we subtly shift behavior based on things in? The environment we did a study a few years ago we looked at whether where people vote could affect how they vote think about the last time you voted, for example, unless you voted by mail voted polling place on the United States? We voted a mix of churches and schools and fire houses and community centers, all these different things. But what those different places do is they activate different things in our mind right? You walk into a church you're thinking about different things if you walk into a school even though you. Didn't choose where to go to imagine you're voting on an initiative around I. Don't know gay marriage or You Know Attacks Initiative for schools whether you're walk into a school or Church may change how you think about those different ideas and whether you support them or not not because you always feel one way or another. But because you're a little bit about which to go and the pride that q in the environment shapes your behavior, and so I talk a lot about this in an invisible influence started someone. Contagious in the triggers chapter basically, how we can shape what's salient to people are accessible to people when they make decisions and use that to drive judgment right attribute making Cesspool shape what they do it's fascinating people we see more often seem more attractive same thing for brands you know branding advertising I always wonder when companies by ads on the Jordan Harbinger show and it's like they don't want me to send them to a website or anything. They just want me to be like Coca Cola taste good in the summertime. For example, the ADS are a little bit more sophisticated than that but not really and are like you have to read this verbatim. You can't change any of the words which means somebody somewhere was like this is the exact messaging and they buy a ton of ads and they all go in the same spot and they just want that over and over over and over again for insurance for drink yet or something like that and I find this fascinating. But I wonder if there's a limit to this, you know what? About novelty we like that too there such a thing as too novel, but there's also a such thing as I've seen this one hundred times I don't want it anymore. So is there like a balance here? Where's the balance? Yes, I'd say a couple of things. So I I think you're very right in terms of the advertising usually does I think it's easiest to see this in a restaurant context right? You know if I spent a lot five minutes on the show talking about Mexican food it's GonNa make your listeners More likely to buy Mexican food sometime soon, not because they never bought Mexican food and I convinced them to Mexican food. But because sometimes they Bam Mexican food and sometimes it by Chinese food and talking more about Mexican food makes them think about Mexican food and makes them more likely to buy that and so by talking about one thing brings that to mind which then makes it more like to drive behavior. But I think the second thing I'd say is you're very right. You know our behaviors a mix of. Being similar and different. We Wanna be different. We don't want to be wearing the exact same thing as our friends, but we also don't want to be wearing something completely different from anybody else unless maybe we're going to the met gala or something like that. Right we want to fit in but be a little bit different and so There's a nice phrase for this, which is optimal distinctiveness, which is a mix of similar in and different at the same time you know. Yeah. Going back to my dad and that. EXAMPLE WE WANNA buy a BMW just show we have status but we buy a blue one to separate us from our friends. For example, right we want to wear what's in this season or we WANNA listen to type of music that everyone likes but we want to be the one that brings in a new artist in that type of music seven goes Oh, you know you know about music and so we want to be similar enough to be right not to be outside the group but different enough to feel like. We're our own unique person and were separate from everybody else. Is there an amount we can see something too many times so many times that it loses value I guess that's the golden ticket. If you can calculate that right, I, mean I think it depends on the situation right because you can listen to a song or go to museum many times and not get bored of it but you can also listen to a ten second jingle and hated after four exposures and some of it depends on how complex A. Stimulus is right. So you know before the pandemic took over, I would basically go every weekend every Sunday morning to the same place with our son. I. Go to the same place every time, but it's a you know an outdoor and indoor museum has lots of stuff to do. Yes. It's the same place, but it's a rich and complex experience that every time is different. So I could go one hundred times and not get bored. That's different than listening to ten second jingle. One hundred times in a row which. Would get really frustrating really quickly because there's not a lot of variation and nuance in it, and so somebody's how complex stimulus is someone is how much time elapses between repeated exposures if I asked you to eat the same thing every meal every day for a week, you would hate me if I said, hey, you can't go to your favorite restaurant again ever you would also hate me right you want to go back to that favorite restaurant. You just don't want to go back right away you want enough time. To pass that, it feels stimulating enough sort of provides enough variety that it's novel but not too. Now last but not least this concept and fashion and branding I find extremely interesting whether it's like this effect where elite fashion brands or any mainstream fashion brand will do this. They put the giant logo, the loudest branding on some of the cheapest low end stuff in the middle range has even more branding. Right? There's even more stuff on there. That's like, Oh, you thought Chanel was big on the starter shades in the. Starter Sunglasses look at the mid range staff where the whole thing is like the giant logo. Yeah. But then as things get more expensive from there, the branding is smaller and smaller smaller until there are certain handbags for example or sunglasses where you can't even tell unless you look maybe on the inside of the temple and you see like Oh, these are cartier sunglasses or something like that. So there's this sort of spectrum here. What's going on here? This is fascinating because this shows up in all kinds of fashion especially. So we did some research on this and and essentially what it is subtle signals. Logos help people know that somebody has a certain characteristic and you see this now more online almost even other than logos with photos that people poster information you know if you WANNA signal that year into sports you post pictures of being at Sporting Games and you post articles about you know your favorite team and information, and you want to share a lot of things that signal that you're into that. If you're into travel, you post picture of yourself in front of the Eiffel Tower and all these other things to signal desired characteristics. But the challenge is that sometimes overt signaling can be bad. Sure. Yeah. You Might WanNa signal in front of the Eiffel Tower but if lots of. People do that starts to seem a little bit Gauche right Laghi who, yeah. But like why are you telling me that? Why are you bragging so much and so sometimes actually subtle signals can be better we found with handbags for example, sunglasses is part of the reason people buy more expensive items in those domains to single status I don't WanNa buy the cheapest bag or the cheapest sunglasses I want to show you that I have some status I spend more money and to show you that I have status needs to have a logo on it because if it doesn't have a logo, you don't know that I bought the more expensive thing within sort of interesting is if I want. To show that, I'm different from those people right. I can't just by some the logo on it kind of look exactly the same as them, and so in some sense, another way to differentiate myself, send us a subtler signal, right if you think about shoes with red bottoms or shirt that have special detailing, what those things do is they have signal people in the know can tell but not everyone can tell and so for those that are really high status or want to differentiate themselves in the masses. Subtle signals are a great way to do it. You you WanNa, show you really into sneakers. You don't just by I. Don't know the newest pair of Jordan's, for example, but you. Wear. You know a pair from fifteen years ago. That was only released certain colors that most people don't recognize. But the people in the know will be able to tell and using those subtle signals is a great way to communicate to ingrate members or folks that have that knowledge and not necessarily communicating to everybody right so yeah, you're paying to show this off in paying more to show it off even more but the top consumers Kinda don't care. They want something more tasteful and I think you kind of alluded to this. But like it's an elite club, right only recognized by insiders, you know those Birkin bags or something like that. These super expensive twenty, five, thousand dollar handbags from. Have you heard of this. Yeah I think they're like a knit bag right or something cross I seriously don't even really know. Yeah I'm not totally share generally in my opinion they look like something that an old lady would wear they do have. Yes. Other ones. Yeah. But they're extremely popular wealthy people I know they go in the secret room and this is whole experience where you get it but it's it doesn't say this is a Birkin bag. On the side, like you would expect somebody to be able to show it off. It's very, very subtle and you can tell the fakes by like the way the lock looks or something, and it's like a different kind of Zipper and there's all this training online about how to spot it because I'm not paying twenty five thousand bucks for bag if I can't spot somebody else who's a chump using a fake one and not be able to rub it. In their frigging face right or these tell all my friends. She's got a fake one. So it's like this dog whistle fashion as you call it in the book the Red Bottom Shoes Christian Lubaton. The hipster stuff these fixed wheel bikes. Yeah. This is a little bit different though right the fixed wheel bikes. This is something that's like more difficult to use somehow that is the virtue signal I guess kind of for lack of a better word and Again, it's doing something that most people wouldn't do right. Most people wouldn't give up the big logo because they'd be misidentified by some people most folks would want the bike with lots of gears because it makes it easier ride but being willing to do something that most people aren't is a great way to sort of signal and identity that's different from everybody else Jonah, thank you so much for coming on the show. No problem. Thanks for having me back. I've got some thoughts on this episode of course but before I get into that, here's a quick sample of my chat with AJ Jacobs. He's a friend of mine and does these weird experiments where he lives by the literal world of the Bible Year or tries to say, thank you to all the people involved in manufacturing, shipping and brewing his morning coffee from the bean growers to the logistics and shipping people. This one really shows you just how dependent we are on one another here's a bite. When I tried to do was thank thousand people who had even the smallest role and making my cup of coffee possible and the Pharaohs near Oh that's not a lie. That's all is it was a hundred people would be tedious it. It was way more than ten times that many. Everything we do requires hundreds, thousands of interconnected people, and that we take for granted and just making this mental switch just from a selfish point of view is very good because it really does help you appreciate the hundreds of things that go right every day instead of focusing on the three or four go wrong. There's a great quote. I wish I come up with myself, but it says it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking. Than to think your way into a new way of acting. So I. had to fake it for a long time. You know I would wake up a grumpy mood but I feel like I have to spend our calling or visiting people in thanking them and I'm not in the mood to do that for now. So it's like acting like method acting and I would force myself to do it but I'll tell you by the end of that our minds you know. Dissidents is too much. Your mind will switch over to gratefulness. There's a great quote that happiness does not lead gratitude. Gratitude leads to happiness. Having that mindset really will make you ammunition. For more with AJ Jacobs and has fascinating journey to thank everyone involved in his cup of morning coffee and an inside look at just how complex the supply chain of our lives really is checkout episode one, seven, four of the Jordan Harbinger show. Thanks to Joe Burger. His book is called Catalyst. By the way I think it's really interesting. There's also reverse influence or marketing. We talked a little bit about influence and influence or marketing. There's also reverse influence or marketing. So if you remember that show the Jersey Shore Snooky and Mike the situation they were actually paid to not wear certain clothes. If you're a member their behavior, you're not missing anything if you didn't see it but these are like super trashy low class folks they were actually paid to not wear certain handbags clothing they were always getting arrested. They were always drunk snooky was actually getting handbags from companies that were sending the. Competing companies handbags Chanel would send over Gucci bag and be like enjoy you know to get them to wear or use the other brand instead of their own because it was negative branding these people were so famous for being trashy that people did not want them to wear the clothes in famously Mike, Sorenson no was paid by Abercrombie to neverwhere Abercrombie clothing ever again, which I think is hilarious in a weird way to make a living links to a burgers book, everything will be in the website on the show and its please do use our website link. If you buy the books because it does help support the show worksheets for this. Episode in the show notes transcripts of the episodes are in the show. There's a video of this interview on our Youtube Channel coming soon at Jordan harbinger dot com slash youtube I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both twitter and instagram or you can also hit me on Lincoln I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems in tiny habits, and, of course, your new found influence skills that's in our six-minute networking course, which is free over at Jordan harbinger dot com slash course dig the well before you get thirsty most of the guests on the show they subscribed to the course and the newsletter come join US you`ll Be Smart Company this shows created an association with podcast one and my amazing team that includes Jenner Harbinger J Sanderson Robert Fogerty Ian Baird milio Ocampo Josh Ballard and gave Mizrahi remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting if you know somebody who's in marketing interested influence persuasion please share this with them I do hope you find something great in every episode please share the show with those who care about in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.

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The Art of Overcoming Procrastination with Adam Grant

The Art of Charm

50:06 min | 1 year ago

The Art of Overcoming Procrastination with Adam Grant

"Hey charm listeners. We want to create the best overall. Show experience possible and we would appreciate your feedback about the show and learning a bit more about you. The listener we're asking our listeners. To complete a short survey that takes less than five minutes. Please go to the PODCAST SURVEY DOT COM slash charm to take short anonymous survey to help support the show. As our award survey participants each month will be entered to win a one hundred dollars Amazon Gift Card with a new winner announced each month again. That's the PODCAST survey dot com slash charm for the quick survey to help the show. Thanks again for listening. Welcome back to the charm. Podcast I'm AJ. And I'm drowning. And we are currently on lockdown here in the state of California. We help each and every one of our listeners is safely isolating and healthy during this crisis. Of course many of us have been forced to work from home for the first time which we've covered on a few previous episodes and today we're really excited to have a frequent Gaston and a great author of one of our favorite books. Give and take Adam Grant. This is one of the reasons why I love doing this. Show when you listen to somebody read so much of their stuff and then you have an opportunity to talk to them and then not only that dig in deeper some of the burning questions that we've had in reading his research you know it's been seven years since his book give and take came out which is recommended reading for. All of our boot camp participants and I'm sure a lot of our audience members have read the book so I'm excited to see what has changed. What is his perspective on that book as well as how can we get through this current situation? Adams joining us today to talk about over coming procrastination how to deal with loneliness at work in what we can do with the challenges that lie ahead of us. So I'm excited to chat with Adam. Now if you're new to the show we are all about actual tips and strategies on how to supercharge or social skills and turn that small talk into smarttalk surround yourself with the army of high status individuals to grow your social capital and unlock your hidden charisma to crush it and business love and life. Now if you like the show. Don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends. And of course if you're looking to make your lockdown or quarantine more productive check out our core confidence group mentoring program you get access to our network with daily live videos for me. Johnny and the AFC team Kirckhoven. It's all about the finding your life and rewriting. The story of who you are each week you meet on Sunday mornings at nine. Am Pacific which are virtual group and coaches? Weekly weekly challenges. The push you outside your comfort zone grow your confidence and deepen your connection with family. Friends and coworkers and every mission is corona virus. Corentin friendly. So you don't even have to put yourself in danger while this is going on. We cover topics like dealing with negative emotions defining your values living in the present moment identifying your limiting beliefs and achieving crystal clear goals. Now join a group of supportive and like minded auditorium listeners to bond and grow during this crisis expand your network and connect virtually to reach your true potential our next group kicks off April Twenty. Six at nine. Am Pacific we're accepting applications now with limited seats left to learn more and apply today head on over to the charm dot com slash core. That's the art of Charm. Dot Com slash. Ceo are now. Let's get started with the show today. We have none other than Adam grant with us. Adam is a psychologist and author specializing in organizational psychology. He's the author of many great books. Give and take originals. And he even co-authored option B. With facebook. Sheryl Sandberg Adam is a professor at the Wharton School of business at the University of Pennsylvania where he received his tenure at the young age of twenty eight. He's also the host of a great podcast called work life and this is his third time on our show. Welcome to the show at him. So good to have you back. So obviously as a organizational psychologist there's a lot to think about and deal with when it comes to all of us now. Working from home being quarantined really. Our lives changed rather dramatically. Many of US unplanned. Even what are your thoughts obviously in this environment with Corona virus? Well I've been calling for companies to allow flextime and make it easier for people to work from home for a few years now and I was especially convinced after there was this. Great Call Center experiment where people are randomly assigned to have a chance to do their call center jobs from home and their productivity went up by thirteen percent. The odds of quitting in the next six months dropped in half. Wow look at that and said okay. What's what's driving. That will one thing might be. They're just saving time like they don't have to commute or get dressed. Another factor is the really appreciate the autonomy they're being given and you know it's a signal of trust from their employer that creates loyalty. They're more motivated. And then of course. There's also the flexibility to work when they want and when it's productive for them and if you stop there this sounds really great would. I didn't anticipate we're all dealing with now is one. We're not doing this by choice. Where all now forced to work from home and so I think that sense autonomy has lost too many of us have our kids at home too and it's a lot harder to plan. Schedules trying to coordinate multiple. And so I think this is a much more difficult work from home. Experiment than what most companies have ever run dealt with before and to go along with that. I think it's also for and at least an agent is experienced in dealing with some of the young kids and interns and employees that we had who've worked from home. There has always been those people who seemed to relish it and work really well and for those people who just sort of fall apart in that environment because it is new and that environment leads to certain habits and decisions that are not going to lead you to be very productive. I think this is a lot easier for obviously for introverts for people who are comfortable working independently for people who love to be surrounded by people are community. This has been a lot harder and I think many of us go through a slower transition. Where maybe we start working from home one or two days a week and still balanced going into the office but this happened rather suddenly and across the board for everyone so it has certainly been quite the adjustment for many of us who aren't used to working remote at all. You know it's interesting because as a writer I basically worked from home my whole career but then I have all these other hats that I wear where you know. I'm on campus teaching classes. I'm on the road giving keynote speeches and doing consulting projects and so essentially a bunch of the different pieces of my job disappeared and now now I just have to work from home component. And it's interesting. I feel like in some ways I have more work time but in other ways miss being out in the world engaged with people you know in a face to face way and I realize this is just so much easier for people who Who Do knowledge work? If you're in a manufacturing job or a service job this is incredibly difficult and I think we're just at the very beginning of trying to figure out. How do we redesign jobs to make this work from a distance absolutely and I think digging a little bit more into the science? A lot of our listeners are in leadership roles and management through remote. Work is a lot different than in person work. And what is your experience in the Science? Tell us about being ineffective leader when your team is dispersed and not onsite all right jam in shock. You hear you ready for this. Yeah I'm ready okay. The science says it's exactly the same except harder in many ways not blowing good luck. I think that it's clear from a lot of the research. I've read that. Having elite virtually amplifies a bunch of challenges but also opens up a few opportunities. The challenges are clear. It's difficult to get people on the same page to create a sense of of common mission to coordinate and communicate. People may lose a sense of motivation. I think it's worth talking about some of the things that if they're not made easier at least they change so I think one thing. That changes is a leader. All of a sudden. You have an excuse to be checking in with people at scale in a way that before you SORTA had to do one on one. So let's say Johnny. If I work for you if you sent me a survey every week to find out what was going on in my head. I think it would take until about week three before. I said you're a terrible boss. If you want to figure out what I'm experiencing you should probably meet with me one on one weekly and asked me right. Yes and I think. Now there's a degree of both necessity and license. That leaders have to say you know what? Let's do a weekly pulse check. I know Quelch has rolled out a quote tricks remote pulse where there's a standard survey you can give out it's available free and it's just a simple way for leaders to find out at the group level as opposed to one on one. What are the biggest challenges and concerns that their employees are facing and so it's a powerful learning opportunity? There is a certain amount of discipline that you need to have to make this work and obviously everyone has their own obstacles as at home as you mentioned Adam some folks might have little ones running around and you gotta make them a tuna fish sandwich at noon and some of us are working with our spouses for the first time in. Find trying to find room in that house. And when you give people deadlines it's nice for those deadlines to be met. But if you have somebody who's not disciplined who was like well. I don't have to have this done till Friday noon so I'll start on it Friday morning. It's like well you know you could do that. But how long can you keep that up before the other people that you're gonNA start to realize that this person is just pushing off everything. They're just waiting to hit those lines. They're not really as motivated as everyone else on the team who are hitting milestones throughout those projects. I think that's that's a concern. I worry just as much about the The opposite problem which is people feeling a tremendous amount of stress and pressure to stand up their jobs so that they get to keep their jobs. And I think there's a leader at the first thing I want to remember. Is that a lot of people are experiencing tremendous job insecurity right now you know. They know that many companies are laying off employees. That there are furloughs and plenty of workplaces hiring freezes and they're open questions about whether you're you're going to be able to stay employed if you can't get your work done and I think for any leader that's worried about people. Slacking off I would. I would just reinforce that message first and foremost but then to your point. They're going to be some people who are less motivated than others or just. They're just more overwhelmed and have more to manage at home. I think if that's the case the first thing is to recognize that as a leader is not really your job to motivate people directly. It's your job to help them figure. Out what motivates them and empower them to to try to to put whatever those factors are in place at DC WHO's one of the godfathers of intrinsic motivation has long said that we have to stop thinking about motivation is something we do to other people and start thinking about it as something that they themselves and so as a leader you know if I've got somebody WHO's not motivated. I want to actually interview them and say. Okay Ejei I know. You've fallen behind on some deadlines totally understand that. This is an extremely difficult time right now and frankly. I'd be surprised if anybody is getting things done on time. You know to the extent that that you've been lagging more than other people love to find out what's going on what's keeping you from being able to to stay on track. And what conditions can I put in place that will make things easier for you and then I have a follow up conversation about? What are your favorite and least favorite projects? What are the Times of day that you feel most and least motivated and the goal is not to micromanage you. It's ask you questions and hold up a mirror so you can see your reflection more clearly and then you can start to design those conditions a little bit more into your workday stress anxiety and self quarantine has created a mental health crisis and that is why we are so proud of our sponsor. Better help. Who's helping you get access to the talk therapy that you need. I know for myself personally growing up in a single father household. I struggled to connect with others and deal with my past and I had to turn to therapy to help overcome my own insecurities at first. I was scared but it actually helped me work through my emotions and I came out the other side a lot. Stronger it certainly good to be able to talk to somebody who is not a CO worker or a family member where you could just articulate how you're feeling with somebody who is listening carrying judgmental. Is there something interfering with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals? Better help will assess your needs and match you with your own license professional therapist you can start communicating and under twenty four hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not self help. It is professional counseling done securely online. There's a broad range of expertise available which may not be locally available in many areas the services available for clients worldwide. You can log into your count anytime and send a message to your counselor. 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Enjoying over eight hundred thousand people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experience professional special offer for the charm listeners. To get ten percent off your first month at better help dot com slash charm. That's better H E L P dot com slash Char Johnny. Weaver working from home for well over a decade. But I know for many of our listeners. This has created new challenges especially when it comes to being productive and feeling. Good about your workstation. You're absolutely right. And having designated clean workstation allows you to be at your best and when you're at your best your creativity and pray that is at its best bullies. Workplace furniture is designed for health flow and balance now during these uncertain times fully is helping people and businesses across the US Canada and Europe. Make the transition to working from home with modern environmentally friendly and ethically manufactured office furniture fully sentence over a few pieces. And I have to say I've fallen in love with my Jarvis standing desk at the touch of a button. I can raise or lower it depending if I wanNA sit or stand and I just feel like I'm in the flow being able to move and be productive while we are recording these episodes from home the thought and care that they've put into. This furniture is unbelievable. There is a place for everything and at works to help keep a clean station. And that's exactly what I need. I can't deal with cables or clutter on my workstation and they've thought of everything fully is working hard to continue to ship free direct and next day so instead of feeling chained to your kitchen table or whatever. Makeshift workstation use setup fully can help create a space that helps you find your flow. Fully chairs encourage healthy sitting both imposter and variability. Foley's products help incorporate movement into your days in order to keep the blood flowing and your mind engaged. They're confused code-share allows me to sit stand. Lean raise lower. I feel like it's always supporting me no matter how I'm sitting or standing whether you're shopping for yourself or your entire team fully as here for you if you need help transitioning your team please call him. Take fifty dollars off your Jarvis standing desk. When you visit fully dot com slash charm that's fully F. U. L. L. Y. Dot Com slash charm fully. Everything you need to find your workflow and I think for a lot of us in leadership positions were also not thinking about what this isolation is doing to our team members and their loneliness factor. So I think there's this juggling of productivity and not realizing that while also the social element to work in the meaning that we get from feeling connected to our teammates and being around each other that you just can't mimic. I mean even us here trying to have this conversation. It's totally different than being in the same room together and many of us were feeling lonely at work before this. And and now it's been exacerbated. I know that was a topic on one of your recent shows around this loneliness at work and what we can do as leaders to tap into the community aspect of supporting our team. Yeah ironically or not. We decided in the fall to do an episode of my work podcast on low minutes at work and it was basically done and then the kid we said. Wait hold on. We need to go back to the drawing board and zoom in on some of the unique aspects of loneliness that are part of this kind of isolation and remote work experience and I think the big takeaway from me after reading a lot of research on loneliness after talking to people who have dealt with it who've tried to change it in their workplaces and even at the national policy level and governments my biggest takeaway is that you don't need friendships to avoid loneliness. When a lot of people think about not feeling lonely they think okay. I need a best friend at work or I need A. You know a tight-knit circle of colleagues that I'm really close to and we'll go on vacation together and I'll have them over for dinner and yeah that can that can certainly fight loneliness. But it's not gonNA happen right now so I guess what I took away from. Some of my favorite work on this is what by my mentor. Jane Dutton caused a high quality connection and Jane's World. When she studies this high quality connection is not necessarily an enduring relationship. It's a momentary sense of feeling scene and feeling energized by somebody else and in the data it only takes about forty seconds of interaction between people to experience a high quality connection. And so you know I think as as we see people checking on facetime and doing zoom calls and and even just texting there's real power and if there are a few people that I don't normally interact with but I just I haven't heard from them in six or seven months and I don't really know how this crisis affecting them. Let me just check in for a minute or two and say hey look I know. You're swamped just wanted to see how you're doing. Just doing one or two of those conversations in a day can have a huge impact on your sense of loneliness one because you have a different kind of interaction that you built-in which is often more meaningful if you haven't talked to somebody in a while and it would be if you're doing the daily checkup and to you also feel like you matter. You know you're trying to to listen to them and support them in a way that makes you feel helpful and that seems to be one of the most powerful antidotes to loneliness that we have is is feeling like you've been able to give something to somebody else and a topic. We talk about a lot on. The show is leading from the seat that you're in and even if you're not in a leadership role per se right now where you're managing other team members. You can still be a leader in fighting that loneliness and isolation in reaching out to other team members and you can be a leader by showing up to the zoom. A little bit early and asking them how they're doing as everyone getting ready to go on and get the meeting started. You know I think a lot of make this wrong decision in my mind to focus so much on team productivity and getting that to do list shortened in those tasks off. We don't take enough time. Just investing in our team members mental wellbeing and their connections to one another to really enhance that productivity. Does the science back that up that a more connected team isolated team is actually more productive. Yeah we have decades of evidence on the quality of relationships in a team being an important driver of performance and vice versa. Excuse me vice versa. Team underperforms relationships in connections often suffer and that can become a vicious cycle over time. I think for a lot of a lot of people in his team. It makes sense to say. Let's take five to ten minutes of each meeting that we do. Let's just check in and find out what's going on. We'll have everybody share a quick story or you know we'll even if you have a daily meeting we're GonNa have each person you know kind of do an update each day The hope is that in a week or two. If you got a reasonable size team you've heard from everybody. The other thing though is i. Don't think this always has to be separated completely from work right so some people are very far in integrating end of the spectrum. They're thrilled to talk about their kids at work. They're happy to bring their work home. Some of us are more kind to be segments since look boundary between work and home and that boundary has been shattered in the past few weeks. We are all that BBC Dad. Now kids came into his his interview whether we want to be or not and so to recognize that there are some segments out there. There's some ways to facilitate connection that don't require as much of the personal or the home boundary being bridged in in one of those ways is there's an experiment I love. That Lee Thompson did where she was. Trying to get. People to brainstorm creatively and she randomly assigned some of them to just do a simple exercise. Which was you pair up? And you tell an embarrassing story to your partner and that just five minutes or so of sharing embarrassing story increase creativity in the group afterward because people experience more psychological safety. They felt like all right. I opened up to this person. This is somebody I can trust and now I can let my bold ideas fly and at first I was like embarrassing story. Do I really want to ask people to share those leader? And then as I thought about it I landed at. Okay I can share mine first. And then it's very clear to people that that they have the discretion to choose something that's not going to be so embarrassing that it ruins their credibility in any way and people seem to get a real kick out of this so you know I don't. I don't know that that's exercise for everyone. But it's the kind of thing I would try. If I've got a team of people who are maybe a little more reluctant to open up on the Home Front. You know that's interesting that you mentioned that because a long time ago when we first started some of our earlier programs one of the things that we would do is have everyone in the Group. Draw an embarrassing picture and handed to the person next to them Yes and it just. It broke the ice at allowed everyone to relax and what was funny about. It is people held onto that picture for years because after we hate the handed it to the person of the left had you followed up put in their pocket or put it in their wallet and the joke was no matter how tough you think you are. The person next to you has embarrassing picture that you drew and so there was that instant camaraderie and as I said people would write me years later. Go Look what I found in my wallet or do you remember this. And they held onto that and that creates this by in that you would have of. You're in the office building. Those connections that buying is what? What motivates you to. Not Want to let your teammate down. Johnny. I've never heard anything like that before and I have to ask you. What did you draw? Well let's say that we had everyone dro- a an animated picture of their privates and they could draw in whatever fashion they wanted so people were very creative but it was so embarrassing that it just everyone then had each other's cartoon prive it to the person and all right. This just got not safe for work. We could probably cut one little slice out. I'm sorry I asked let it work. We'll be happy. We're not video because you would have seen that. I got a stack them. Oh man that's a little bit. Obviously your remote work is not new so in your experience with organizations is there any unorthodox things that organizations who are one hundred percent remote work are doing well that sort of break the mold for this connection. Camaraderie and really building the culture that leads to productivity. I'd love to see better evidence on that. I don't think we know a whole lot about what works. And what doesn't I'd say one of the more creative steps that I've seen over time. Actually I'll give you two one is. I've just learned about this recently. At a couple companies people are doing virtual Home Office tours. You sign into the meeting like. Hey here's where I'm working today and you know it's it's another one of those small windows into what makes you a human being as opposed to just a a professional high achiever that allows people to feel more connected. One of the things that were be parker did years ago was when they opened up their first office which was not headquarters. So headquarters was in New York. They opened up an office. Gosh I want to say it was Nashville or somewhere. That was far enough away that people felt like they might be in a different culture and they decided that one of the ways they were going to facilitate connection was they would turn on a Webcam in both offices. And just leave it on set. You could see your co workers in the other place and I thought that was so interesting because people would you know th sometimes on their lunch break. They just walk by and wave to the camera. They'd meet people on the other end and I don't know how practical it is to leave open zoom channel or bluejeans channel in different people's home offices but it didn't dawn on me that if people have a protected space where they're working from that you know sometimes especially if you're an extrovert just knowing that somebody else is. Is there waiting for your work or ready for you to bounce something off of them as if they were sitting next to you? I think it's a mistake that in a lot of places we're only using these these virtual technologies when we have a meeting as opposed to saying you know what we could we could be connected throughout the day to the people that we normally sit right next to you and there is some evidence to back this up if you do it well anyway. Immediate William her colleagues have studied software. Teams that work virtually and they show that if you are online at the same hours that you're more creative and more productive and they the term they use to describe the pattern is called burst genus. The communication is literally bursting with ideas and energy. I thought the mechanism behind this was okay. You know somebody who's responding. I'm getting ideas from them. Were able to build on each other. We help each other. And that may be part of the story but in her colleagues find something else which is interesting that it's motivating and engaging to know that somebody else is about to receive the work that you're doing and that they're right there as opposed to there being a time lag and I think you can strengthen that connection and probably make make collaboration a little burst here just by staying connected to people while I remember. We did a creative live a few years ago. And we're up in their lunchroom in San Francisco and they had exactly that they had webcams all the break rooms across all their offices and anyone on their break could walk through the camera. We were waving to people in New York and vice versa. And I thought it was just such a unique perspective to connect completely remote workplaces with the team. That's an another time zone. Who probably isn't on lunch? But they were popping in around lunchtime just to say hi all their friends in San Francisco and vice versa. Which I definitely felt even more connected with people that I had never met before in the New York office just by able to being able to see their lunch room and and what life was like for them on another coast. Wow I think that's exactly the kind of step that would be helpful for a lot of people. I don't know that it's for me as an introvert but I'll recommend it to anyone who's missing men sense of connection what I also found. A few people doing now is they're struggling themselves. Procrastination and love to unpack the science of this as well and one of the things is. They're doing these group one hour zoom sessions where we work together so you hop in zoom. There's really no interaction between one another and you get to see each other working and you kind of feed off that energy like you would if you were in your cubicle in a normal nine to five situation where you see someone else working next to you like. Hey I'm going to buzz through my work instead of in this environment now where we really are even more distracted. You know you think about when we weren't all working from home well. It would certainly rub your boss the wrong way if you're sitting on your phone checking instagram through the whole meeting. I'm sorry I wasn't paying attention. I'm shots right here. I'm shocked that we're not and we're distracted. You know we got notifications flying on our computers. We got all of this stuff going on. That's pulling our attention away and of course. Procrastination is creeping in so from a productivity standpoint. Is someone who wants to battle back. Procrastination what does science say? What are the best strategies for us to to win that procrastination battle while we work from home? I think you've already hit on one of the most effective steps which is to interact with someone who's productive. There's a dylan minor study. Where if you randomly ended up sitting next to someone who's highly productive your own productivity spikes by about ten percent. It seems like either their habits are contagious or you. Don't WanNa be the slacker. Next to the person who's getting a lot done and so I think choosing to coordinate work or interact with people who seem to be highly motivated inefficient. That's a decent first step. I'd been digging into the science procrastination quite a bit for the last few years. Some my own research on it with the former student Jae Shin in talking to lots of experts reading various studies and the big. Hoffer me was that it was thought of as somebody who doesn't procrastinate much. I was thought procrastinators is lazy. And that's not at all with the data supports. The data suggests that procrastination is not a work ethic problem. It's an emotion regulation problems that people procrastinate because there's a task that stirs up some kind of unpleasant emotion. It might be a task is really boring. It could be that a task makes you anxious and you feel like you know it's just it's overwhelming or you don't have the skills for it or you might bomb in some way shape or form. It might be. The task brings up feelings of ambulance and we can make a whole list of of reasons why people would feel negative. Emotions are mixed emotions. Swear to task. What's powerful about that? A high is. It opens up the realization. That a lot of the stuff we do while we're procrastinating is actually pretty effort intensive. So if you've if you've ever organized your entire closet while you're procrastinating on something else like okay. You weren't being lazy right. You were doing something active. It just wasn't the task you're supposed to be doing and I think one to understand. Procrastination is an emotion regulation problem you can start to diagnose. What are the negative emotions that particular tasks activating for you? And how do you change those emotions? So let's get an example what's what's a task. That that one of you procrastinates on I would say definitely tackling my inbox. Okay actually think about it right now. How many emails you have in your inbox. I've probably have about one hundred plus that a need to respond to okay. And when you think about opening that inbox right now looking at one hundred plus emails. What's what's the dominant emotion anguish anxiety? Why because it's a lot of little tedious asks from other people and and many times things I don't necessarily need to be involved in. Don't make me productive okay. Good that's a useful example so you pinpointed an emotion that leads you to procrastinate on dealing with your inbox next step then is to say okay. Can I either reframe the task or change the task in a way that alters the emotional experience so of those asks how many of them are coming from people that you actually care about helping. I'd say about half okay so potentially half of those emails are her less anxiety or anguish evoking than the other half so I might say okay. Start with that half then the others. I'd start to wonder okay. Can those be delegated is there? Is there a stock response to frequently asked questions that you can generate right is there? Is there some way of of automating or at least batching the tasks so that it doesn't create the emotion with every single e mail in the inbox? Yeah I've certainly worked towards that you know we've tried to move all of our internal communication to slack. And that's where I live and that makes me happy because I'm I'm working in moving the team forward and right now we said this last week. I think this is the greatest time in the history of the world to network with other people because we're all sitting in front of our computers. We are not on planes. We're not going to events. We're all looking for connection. But that said my inbox is now overflowing with people trying to take advantage of that so I mean flooded with networking opportunities. And Hey I saw you linked in. I could do this. I can sell you something. So that's really where the anxiety comes through. Yeah that's fair. I guess the other thing that comes to mind then is I feel like we're we're in a situation now where we're just even more screen overloaded than we've ever been in the past because the face to face connection is is gone and I've watched for a couple of years call you. My Danielli responded this in a very interesting way. So Danza behavioral economists. He spends a lot of his time thinking about how to manage things that we do. Inefficiently and trade offs between different projects and and behaviors. And what Dan will often do. Is you send me an email and you don't hear back for a day or two and you're thinking well. Dan's really slacking these days. And then he records a voice memo and sends it to you and I've got a few of these from him where he just talks for thirty or sixty seconds. But it's so much more meaningful than getting a typed response and it took him less time than sitting there trying to crack the perfect email response and I wonder whether for anybody who's inbox overloaded if you just took. Let's say ten minutes to record ten voice memos every day one minute each. How quickly would you get through your inbox? That's Hilarious I know. Aj Pretty well after working with them for about fourteen years. And I know of I sent him a bunch of sixty seconds voice memos he I would get a call on. What are you doing? I say you know it gives even more anxiety. Is My virtual voicemail those audience or vox serve. Remember that boxster used to give you so much anxiety now I have to listen to you. Ramble wrote a few words that I could read pledging my anxiety in in the workplace Jay. Hold on no. You're I think you're falling victim to projection bias. You don't want to receive those doesn't mean that other people wouldn't want to receive them from you that I I would definitely agree with you. You can always do is is say you could put a little expand in your emails. That says my favorite way of receiving communication is a message. That's in some techspace forum as opposed to voice. I've learned that some people enjoy receiving voice messages and also that there are times when it's more efficient for me so you just got a voice message. Tell me if you hate it now another. I feel like yeah. We need another acronym for no response necessary with that seriously like no audio response necessary and I feel like procrastination gets a bad rap. A lot of people have that thought that hey listen. It's just being lazy. Why can't you find the willpower to do the tasks at hand? But now we're adding this whole other layer of distracted workplace. We've been laughing about it. Sort of dancing around it but kids jumping on us. Not Having a dedicated workspace at home that we had sort of planned out. You know. I've been on the phone with some of our clients and they're like I'm in a small New York apartment. I literally next to my bed. And I'm climbing up the walls here and I think that's also leading to some productivity. What has the science set around Your Work Environment? And what we can do to make it more productive. Oh I feel like my take away from the science of designing. Your workspace is almost entirely idiosyncratic. So there are probably individual differences that we could draw some insight from so for example extroverts are more likely than introverts to be more productive on simple tasks when they're listening to music. I don't think that will surprise anyone. I don't know how true this is for everyone. But if we go back to those preferences for integrating versus segmenting different spheres of your life is seems to be more important for segments. Have A workspace. That's not their relaxation space. Space whereas an integrator perfectly. Happy to have their you know their phone next to their bed in their their their laptop on their bed for a segment or that kind of freaks them out but I think that frankly too many of us spend too much time trying to learn from other people on this and what we ought to do is run our own experiments and say okay. I've got a week coming up where I'm going to have a chance to work in a whole bunch of different mini arrangements and let me very those throughout the day and throughout the week and track my own productivity and try to learn what works best for me and interestingly what you enjoy is not always what makes you most productive. There's some arrangements that feel comfortable. That are not going to put you in your most efficient and focused frame of mind so I think for me. The test is always. Where do I find flow? What's the environment where I get so absorbed that I lose sight of time and place and even a sense of self and I guess the main thing I've noticed is I'm much more likely to find flow in the chair that I sat in yesterday? And so whatever task them doing that? I found flow in. Today I'M GONNA go right back to that particular position tomorrow and I'M GONNA keep working there until it stops working for me. Certainly what's going to be important and I love this idea of experimenting. You have this time figuring out. We've were just told. What was it yesterday that we're at least going to be in quarantine for another month so that's plenty of time to start some of the things that you've been putting off. It's plenty of time to figure out what works best for you but most importantly during this shakeup and everyone's worlds being flipped upside down. The possibility is very high. That life isn't going back for everybody. The way it was and there is a lot of companies who are going to look at this ago. Why did we have a brick and mortar place? Why did we have offices? Look we've been able to get done for a lot of people. This could be the new normal. I think it could be. It reminds me a study that was done a while back with people in London. I think the London Tube that stopped working or there was a strike and they couldn't take their normal routes to work and so people had to find a different way to go and once the tube was working again. Something like a quarter of people ended up continuing with their new route and they'd been in many cases going ten fifteen years. One way never occurred to them. There's a better way out there. I think that this experiment that we're all forced into right now could be a version of that where people try different ways of working. It might be a different time that you wake up and go to bed. Yeah it might be that different workspace that you set up. It might be the sequencing of your tasks where you thought as a morning person. You should do your creative work in the morning but actually evidence suggests that often were more creative when we're a little bit unfocused and so as a morning person. I will often have more creative ideas at night. And if you're a night owl sometimes your thoughts come up in the morning once. We've been kind of pushed or nudge to try out these different routines. We may well find that. That is more effective for us. Well I feel like in listen to this it mirrors so much the health and wellness science as it's like yes. There are a bunch of different ways to lose weight. But she got to figure out which one works best for you in which when you can stick to and sounds very similar when it comes to productivity there are some things that'll work for you your favorite chair getting back to that flow state. There are other things that will work for others. Having to constantly be on the move spontaneous and change. Why don't we take a second in and pretend we're fortunetellers here? Let's appear to the future. What are you most excited about? When we come out of this for how work will be changed. And the advances in Productivity. And what we can achieve and what he also most concerned about as we come out of this quarantine whenever that. Maybe I'll start with concern. I think the biggest concern is that a lot of companies are going to go out of business and a lot of people are gonNA be out of jobs in some cases. It's going to be very easy to go back to business as usual. But I've watched if you look at what's happening in the restaurant industry right now. As an example of watched even a lot of successful businesses begin to struggle very quickly. And I worry that you know there's not going to be the capital or really the energy and a lot of places to start over from scratch. That's probably my biggest fear from work standpoint in terms of what I'm most excited about. I think the probably the best possible news is people appreciate things. They used to take for granted. I've been surprised by the number of people who've said you know what I kind of missed my commute. And I'm not suggesting that anyone is going to grow to love commuting. It's it's one of the most consistent drivers of job dissatisfaction. But you know being able to say this is not the worst thing in the world and I remember what it was like to not really be able to leave my house or come into work and see my colleagues face to face. I think that's probably something that's going to lead to a deeper sense of appreciation. Once we're we're back more to a standard work life. That appreciation extends itself to others and having empathy for everyone else's situation. Especially when you appreciate yours that much more you begin to look at others and what happens when we become content. Is We start living on the extremes and if you look at social media and where it was culturally leading up to this. We were living very far into the extremes and vis turning everyone's world's upside down puts everyone in a position to think about what is actually important. And what really matters and certainly coming out of this that appreciation that you mentioned is going to be Dear I. My hope is that it extends to others as well our appreciation for others our situation. I hope so too. I think we've known for a while that one of the ways people find gratitude is imagining how things could be worse and the problem with that is for a lot of people in daily life. That counterfactual is not. It's not that salion you don't walk around thinking I'm lucky. I can walk out of my house today and I think this is the kind of seismic event that make those memories much more accessible than they ever would have been otherwise. I completely agree. I feel like my biggest concern and challenge facing when we come out of this. Is the mental health. Told that this is gonNA take. I think we're all cognitive. The economic impact. Everyone's worried about their jobs. But even when we return back to quote unquote normal there is going to be this isolation and emotional toll that it's taken on us and our distrust of one another am. I going to get the virus by going into the store by interacting with people. Should I just get delivery? Should I not interaction? I be more isolated to stay safe. I don't think that's just going to dissipate when the rate of infection slows and we come out the other side. I think there's going to be those fears that are exacerbated and I hope that our our leaders don't use them to their advantage to drive wedges between us even further certainly in situations where we're nervous about getting an invisible virus. We're not quite sure. Who has it even if you are a symptomatic? We're now hearing that you can transmit it so. I think that fear is going to permeate and continue to permeate even when we do come out of isolation and I'm nervous about how that's going to impact those businesses that rely on the social aspect. Yes there are some businesses that can shift to completely remote but like you said there are some jobs that will just not come back as fast as we hope because people founders won't have the energy or the capital the sink back into restarting whether that's a restaurant or store wherever those social components of business and Commerce Intersect. You know they have been up ended arguably forever from this moment. Yeah I think that's that's exactly right and look. There's an old saying that it's hard to predict the future and historians can't even predict the past and so I'm not. I'm not wanted to try to forecast what's going to happen moving forward but I think this is something we all need to brace ourselves for. I will always love having Adam on the show because not only brings a wealth of knowledge and perspective but he cuts through all the bs with science. And of course. That's what we love here on. The show. Always a great catching up with Adam. He's one of those guys who really digs an idea for instance. Let's take an idea. Like value at sounds great to everybody but everyone is like well. What proof do you have that something like that actually works and you can always point to his books? Et is wonderful so this week shoutout coast to none other than our friend. Woody Belfort he is quite the inspiration and he's always joining me on our lives every morning at eight thirty and it's great to see familiar faces be like woody join. Johnny for coffee every morning at eight thirty. Am Pacific on our INSTAGRAM facebook and twitter. All of which at the art of charm. You can also email us and send us your questions two questions at the DOT com or had on over to the artichoke dot com slash questions. We WanNA help you during this crisis. Now remember if you're new to the show and you want to know more about what we teach here at the art of charm. Go CHECK OUT. Our toolbox episodes at the art of charm dot com slash toolbox. That's where you'll get the fundamentals of networking persuasion and influence such as bottling which I contact Foco tonality as well as some of our best episodes on building and maintaining relationships which we all need right. Now don't forget about our ASC challenge. It's free and you can go to the Arctic charm dot com slash challenge to facebook group. That has over sixteen thousand people. And we're always there every day to say hello and you can do all of these challenges from the comfort of your own home so start improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you. It's free it's Unisex. And it's a great way to get the ball rolling and get some forward momentum and of course if you WANNA go deeper during this corentin join us in our core confidence group. Coaching Zoom sessions. Every week with your group and coach Michael. Who's been a guest on the show as well as me and Johnny where we focus on building out your beliefs. Redefining your story of who you are and helping you live in the present moment to achieve those crystal clear goals join a group of supportive and like minded charm listeners to bond and grow during this crisis to learn more apply today head on over to the charm dot com slash core the charm dot com slash. Ceo are now stay tuned. We're going to be dropping part of this great conversation with Adam a little later this week also. Could you do us in the entire artichoke team of big favor head on over to I tunes and rate and review this podcast? It would really mean the world to us the artichoke. Podcast is produced by Michael. Heraldo and Eric Montgomery and engineered by SAM J and Bradley Denim a cast media studios and Sunny. Down Hollywood until next week. I'm Johnny and I'm Aj stay safe.

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Negotiation Strategies for Regular People & Brain Hacks to Get Things Done That You Hate To Do

Something You Should Know

46:44 min | 2 years ago

Negotiation Strategies for Regular People & Brain Hacks to Get Things Done That You Hate To Do

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This is episode two hundred and fifty nine it seems like we just like just started this, and we're now at episode two hundred and fifty nine and still going strong. Our audience continues to grow were still ranked high in the apple podcast charts and everybody else's charts and enlarge part. It is. Thanks to you for listening and for telling your friends about it and keep doing what you're doing. I up today. Have you ever noticed? How very smart people sometimes make very bad choices. Why? Well, it appears to have something to do with the number of choices when you have to choose between two things the choices easy. It's either one or the other. But when a third option option c is introduced that is less appealing than option. A or b. People may change their initial choice. Even if it seems irrational and the reasons for this have puzzled psychologists for years, but now a team of international researchers believes it has found the answer. And it's down to what they call noise in your brain, just as it can be hard to concentrate while somebody's playing loud music, making choice becomes harder. When you have more alternatives to choose from even if those alternatives are quickly dismissed, so for example, if a is preferred to b and b is preferred to see well, then it would seem obvious that a should be preferred to see, but that's not how we process the decision. We tend to look at the choices more like a game of rock paper scissors where the choices differ in a circle not a straight line decisions become influenced by irrelevant factors, and we can end up making a poor choice. Us and that is something you should know. As you live you negotiate. It's part of getting through the day, you negotiate with your kids with your spouse. Co workers your boss store clerks, and yes, even car salesman, the word negotiation does have a negative connotation for some people to negotiate is sometimes thought of as sleazy or cheap. But not to my guest. Richard shell is a professor at the Wharton school of business at the university of Pennsylvania. And he serves as the academic director of Warton's executive training program on the Goshi, -ation, influence and persuasion. He's also the author of a book called bargaining for advantage negotiation strategies for reasonable people. Hey, Richard, thanks for coming on. Thanks. Mike pleasure to be here. So clearly, you have a different and more positive view of negotiation. How do you see? It. I think of it as really a kind of persuasion process and people generally don't have much trouble with persuasion as a concept is just that. It's a kind of persuasion that's happening. When you also have one other thing that has to happen. And that one other thing is you have to decide who gets what share of something. So it may be who gets what share of the one piece of pie this leftover or it may be the money that is in the salary pool. But whatever it is something has to be allocated and divided and whenever that happens, then negotiation is not just an option. It's a requirement. Everybody involved is going gonna be negotiating whether they like it or not or if they know it or not. So my attitude tends to be well, if you have to be negotiating when you're deciding who's going to do the dishes or who's going to pick up the kids or who's going to control. What amount of time to what activity at your local community center. I'd say it's better to be skillful at it and not and skillful doesn't mean manipulative or tricky skilful means that you do it consciously, and you do it with an awareness that there might be some extra motions or tension involve because you're having to allocate something and then you manage those tensions. So that they don't hurt the relationship, and you get a fair deal and people feel good about it when it's over. So I think Santa question of whether you do whether you do it. Well, there is so much talk about when people discuss negotiation that it's important to have a win win. I've always had trouble with that concept because that's not always possible. And I'm not even sure it's so desirable. Yeah. I it's sort of a silly idea for someone to say, let's go to let's go down to the car dealership. And have a win win negotiation. When we are car because your goal is to get the car you want at the least possible price. So your goal. That's your goal. Your goal is not to have a win win negotiation. Or shouldn't be I think this your question also raises an interesting question about personality types, and I've done a lot of research on this and in the world divides into personalities everybody has a different one in different kind of tendencies when it comes to negotiation, some people tend to be very competitive, and some people tend to be highly cooperative just by personality. It's their disposition. They're agreeable people or they're kind of, you know, goal oriented driven people when it comes to negotiation. If you happen to be cooperative person in general, and you ask yourself how can I make this a win win situation. Then you're almost certainly going to. See too much too soon too often and in the wrong way, because you're already a good person who's already empathetic and worried about the relationship with the other person and making sure they like you. And if you then add on top of that on Goshi -ation goal that the other side feel good. You're just doubling down on something that you've already pretty much on autopilot to do. So I think it's actually dangerous for cooperative people to be to explicitly concerned about win win because they're going to be doing half the work for the other side already on the other hand competitive, people often disregard, the relationship factor negotiations, and are just, you know, full steam ahead and ready to, you know, break through all the barriers and doors to get what they want and that can often be a mistake. You can be too strong too, hard, not careful or. Diplomatic enough, and you know, Creedy rotation where you don't need to and and and leave opportunities on the table to create better relationships when you should have. And so for that kind of person this phrase win win as a goal as a sort of reminder might actually be helpful because it reminds them that the other side's feelings matter, and they they ought to be somewhat concerned about leaving the relationship and good order. So when you go into a negotiation, and maybe this is more of a formal negotiation. But it probably applies to any. What is it you go in thinking, what is the mindset, what is the preparation? So that things come out your way, or at least closer to your way than you might otherwise get I teach a week long program negotiation for executives and diplomats, and you know, navy seals at work. And so you've just asked a question about. What's the resort of negotiation expert preparation depends on the situation and the other people you face in general. You oughta always prepare your goals. You always ought to have a sense of where you're headed. You know, what your outcome looks like and be fairly specific about that you then have to kind of map the social situation that you're in and understand the relationships. I name on both sides of the table. Let me just put this in a simple example. So it wasn't too long ago that I went out and bought a new car, you know, when negotiations teacher goes to buy a car, it's like a PHD exam. I I have to be really if I if we're gonna be entitled to teach the subject, I have to do this, right? You better have gotten a really good deal on that car. Oh, I think I did. But honestly, the first thing I did was talk to my wife about what kind of car, you know, we had a ten year old Toyota Camry. And so you know, what kind of car did she think would be a good car for us? Just the fact that I consulted with her on. This question is kind of part of every negotiation. It could be a very complicated State Department one or very simple, go get a car one. You always wanna start by talking with your team about you know, what their goals are and where this fits. So there was that. And then of course, it's car. So there's lots and lots of information out there about what the new cars are going for with the price ranges are. You know, all the details about their, you know, different quality and bells and whistles, and so the next thing was to prepare and and set a goal of what I wanted and that. Records some research. It's not, you know, if you don't go in knowing what you want, especially if you're a consumer you'll be talked into one I something because the sales people are really highly trained, and they're not going to necessarily sell. You a pig in a poke, but they're gonna show you the car they want to sell as opposed to the one that you know, you wanna buy and so it really helps to be prepared. So I did all that work. And then finally came time to actually do the price thing and these days if you're going to buy a car. And I'd I'd already done a little drive around, you know, with a few different things to you know, when my preparation was going on. So I I really knew exactly what I wanted. And so then I went to the web, and all you have to do on some of the website now is put in the car you want and the zip code you live in and then there are series of dealerships. It'll pop up how that you know, and you get to choose do you wanna send this request to how many dealerships? So I, you know, picked six that were within sort of a twenty mile radius at my house in Philadelphia and immediately set up an auction. It wasn't an auction where I was selling something. It was an option. It was an auction for who is going to win the business that I was going to buy the most important thing in that negotiation for me was that I was very honest with every dealership, but I talked to and I told them, truthfully. I was going to buy a car. That day. And so it's just a question who's going to sell it to me I'm talking with Richard shell. He is a professor at the Wharton school of business at the university of Pennsylvania and author of the book bargaining for advantage negotiation strategies for reasonable people. You know care of has been a sponsor of something you should know for a while now. And I've always thought how come no one came up with this before it's such a great idea care of is a monthly subscription vitamin service that delivers completely personalized vitamin and supplement packs right to your door. And so what happens is you take this online quiz. I took the quiz. It took about five minutes, and you find out your personal scientifically backed vitamin and supplement recommendations, and this is important because ninety percent of people fall short of FDA recommended guidelines for at least one vitamin or nutrient. But which ones you don't know. I didn't know, but you will know once you take the quiz, then you're. Of subscription box gets sent right to your door with your personalized daily packs. 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I don't want to spend more than twenty eight thousand dollars of the car as I start this process. And then as more information comes out, he may be learned to trust the personal debt. They tell you the truth about something that they didn't have to tell you you might then reveal a little more about the truth from your side that is gonna help set the foundation. So that the negotiation that ends solves the problem that you really have every time you start lying in a Goshi ation. I think it distorts the potential outcomes that you might have. And you find yourself in a box later on where you really would rather have the truth be the way you're going to proceed? But you already lied. So you don't have the truth there without losing. You know, all your credibility. And it's it's just a mistake. So telling me is true slowly just means like turning over cards on a deck. If you're playing a game of cards each card is truecard you're not dealing from the bottom of the deck. But you don't put the whole deck face up at the beginning a lot of times in negotiation, especially like when you're shooting for something with customer service, emotions quickly arise and and things. Go off the rails. Because people start yelling at each other. A how do you how do you avoid that? How do you get what you want when you're dealing with somebody like that whose job it is to maybe not give you what you want a couple of interesting issues. There one is what about emotions, and and how do they play into the process, and the other is dealing with someone who doesn't wanna go. She ate so do with emotions first. So my motto on that one is never lose your emotions, use your emotions. If you lose your emotions, you're likely to overdo something say things, you regret ruined the relationship make it harder to come back. The next day if the problem still needs to be solved, you set yourself up for having to apologize, and they're all kinds of things that can happen. When you lose your motions. I think using your emotions is a good idea. Sometimes you're entitled to be angry when the other side has misbehaved, but using your emotions means you can be in fabric. You can get angry, but you get angry that control way, I think sometimes especially with customer service, you're dealing with people who people get angry at all day every day. And so getting angry just put you in a category with a lot of other people. They don't wanna help and I've found especially if. You're doing this on the phone that being nice and being empathetic with their situation as being someone has to handle this can often get you to be on. They'll be on your side. And they'll give you more by being nice than if you get emotional with them. I always like to imagine what the other side situation is. And then how best to move them to help. You the end of the day. If there's someone who simply doesn't want to deal with you. You you move on you say I need to talk somebody else. And and I wanna talk to you supervisor. I wanna talk to the owner. I wanna talk to someone who can make a decision because I don't think you understand the situation. One of the frustrating things I find today is a lot of negotiations. Now happens by Email that you don't actually talk to anybody. You have to write it, and it seems somewhat removed from the let's just seems unnatural. What are your what are your suggestions? Well, Email negotiations. I think are especially fraught I recommend never doing any kind of sensitive negotiation on Email, especially dispute where people have different perceptions of what's going on. 'cause at Email is going to be very very blunt feasibly misunderstood because there's no tone to it. That's gonna be shared the way conversation can be. So I like to avoid them. If I can on the other hand, Email is great for confirming information for setting up meetings and phone calls. So if it's an important association over some important stakes I would always push to talk on the phone before. I'd agree or let myself be talked into negotiating on Email, if there's no other option than I would just be very very careful how you write it. So that the other side is aware that. You're aware. This is the way negotiations where that the relationship matters. And that you're trying to be civil and cooperative in getting whatever the the thing is resolved. But in any consequential negotiation I've ever been involved in including car sales and disputes over customer service, or whatever I always end up on the phone and the Email may be the first round. But it just ends up being an Email to set up a phone call. When you look, and you have a unique vantage point being a someone who teaches this. And who's really studied this? What do you see is kind of the big mistakes people make when they when they think they're negotiating or they think they're negotiating well, and they're really not what are they doing down. Well, I'd say the biggest problem is they don't prepare. It's really easy to think and be very overconfident, and you know, your level of preparation and sort of go in and wing it. And then find out you know, that you really don't have your goals. Clear don't understand the standards or the fair price range that's going on. And then you're just sort of swimming upstream. So number one, you can hardly ever over prepare for negotiation. And we have the research shows that the better you prepare the better you do. So it's it's linear the second thing. People don't do enough of his listen. So you have your preparation. Oh your goals. What you don't know what the other side's thinking and a great negotiator. It. Typically is someone who's good at asking questions opened into questions and listening, and then feeding off the answer to get some more information from that cycle. Good investigative journalists might be a third thing that people commonly make mistakes on is they have themselves a closed mind about what's going on. And the other side actually offer some stuff, but they aren't paying attention. And instead of expanding the deal to include some other ideas in terms and possibilities. They just keep zeroing in on this one competitive dynamic that they're trying to get and and and just don't pick up on things that could add a lot of value. One of the one of the things people often hear when they hear experts talk about the Goshi is. No, no one to walk away. And do you think that walking away? I remember hearing somebody say, you know, very often more often than not when you walk away. Someone says we'll wait a minute come on back. Come on back, very often. You know walking away is not really terminating the negotiation. It's simply testing the other sides resolve on the position that they were on. So I believe that you should always be willing to walk away. It's almost never the case that you absolutely have to have whatever it is that I happen to be negotiating about. So a good walkaway attitude is a very strong asset negotiation beyond that, you can realize that there two kinds of walkways one walkaway is I think this is, you know, you're not listening to me. I'm telling you that I need this term or condition or need this price. And you just don't seem to be hearing me. So I'm going to. I'm just gonna. You know, walk away. And if you want to get back in touch with me, here's my phone number. Here's my Email be welcoming your contact. That's one walkway the other is it's over and I never want to hear from you again. And you know, this deal is is finished. So try the first one before you get to the second one. Bluffing. Of course, it is. You know, bluffing is I say that I'll pay I wanna pay X when I'm really willing to pay X, plus three I think in many negotiations if you don't have a some built in margin in the way, you're asking for the price people. Will misunderstand it. They will actually think you're being very stubborn when in fact, what you really being is just fair, but you're not willing to budge. So bluffing actually helps the process sometimes because it gives people away to give and take that makes everybody feel good about how the process concluded. Everybody gives up a little bit. I know that often people will think the best thing to do is to go in and say, okay, look, we can sit here and negotiate all day long and go back and forth, or we can just agree right now on a price, and let's not negotiate. And and but as I recall, I th that almost never works. You know negotiations. Like a dance. It's an interaction. It has a kind of ritual like feeling to it people know what they're doing when they're negotiating, and they kind of have expectations as to how supposed to work, and if you walk in and say, here's how we're going to negotiate. We're not gonna go shade. I'm going to tell you what the price is. I'm gonna say it's fair. And you're gonna say yes, that's the subtext of saying, let's not negotiate. Let's just agree that something's fair because the other size like go. How can I trust that? That's the case. And do I know you well enough to have this be a way to resolving this? It could be that between people in a small town where they know each other very well that that is perfectly reasonable way to conclude it 'cause they they do trust each other. And they do know each other very well. And they have a common expertise on what the fair price is. So so it happens, but in in the general run of things most people don't trust each other well enough to be able to. To conclude matters that quickly I and they need a little give and take for the dance to work, and it is a dance, and I really like watching skillful people do it to watch. Great persuaders. Persuade richard. Shell has been my guest. He is a professor at the Wharton school of business at the university of Pennsylvania. He's academic director of ordinance executive training programs on the Goshi ation influence and persuasion, and he is author of the book bargaining for advantage negotiation strategies for reasonable people. You'll find the link to his book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode d ever have those nights when you have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep. I do which is why I tried the common comfort blanket by sharper image. It's this luxurious weighted blanket that helps you relax. So you can fall asleep and stay asleep naturally. It's made with super soft velveteen material and designed to promote a sense of calmness and relaxation when. 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As self evident, as this may seem you have things to do tasks jobs errands responsibilities that you enjoy doing that you look forward to. And then you have other tasks jobs, errands and responsibilities that you hate to do that. You'd rather not do that are drudgery or difficult or eat up too much time. And that's where executive functioning comes in Wikipedia says executive functioning is selecting and successfully monitoring behaviors that facilitate the attainment of chosen goals, which means basically knowing what you want and staying focused on getting things done, particularly for the purposes of this discussion getting things done that. You'd really rather not do that you'd rather avoid. And as it turns out, there are some brain hacks. You can use to help you stay on task. And get those things done clinical psychologist, Dr Laura. Honus Webb has some strategies that will improve your executive functioning and basically get your brain to cooperate with you. So you can better achieve what you say. You want to achieve Laura is the author of a book called brain hacks. Welcome Laura out. Thank you for having me here. I'm really excited. So when I hear the term executive functioning, I think well that that must be what CEO's of big companies to that's how their brain works. The best way to think about executive functioning is being the boss of your brain. So I think you're kind of right about CEO. And what it means is that you are in control of your emotions that you can create goals, and you can get your goals. It's about not being pushed around by every whim or emotion or impulse. But having a plan and making that plan happen. You know, it almost sounds like the the definition of maturity, you know, this is what what grownups do. Well, yes. And in fact, executive functioning does not fully develop until the age of twenty five. So in some ways, that's true. But what we know is that we are what some people are calling in a crisis of cognition, meaning even for adults with all of the technology and all of the distractions the ability to stream net flicks all day every day that all of us are having problems with executive functioning staying on point in who hasn't had that experience. And you know, what I do when when that happens to me when I'm having trouble staying on task is this is a good idea or not. But I just give myself permission to goof off if I'm having trouble cuts and trading. I'll just go do something else say it's fine and come back to it later. Actually that is a fantastic strategy because there is one thing that's called attention restoration. And that means that we do need those natural breaks. And sometimes the reason we. Feel a lot of resistance to get started is because we think oh, no I'm going to have to do this for two hours. But if you say, oh, I'm just going to do this. And then I will take a break. And like I love how you say goof off, then you have less resistance. But it also restores our attention. Just in the same way is if you were lifting weights you would wanna take a break in between reps. So a real common buzzword people use when talking about a cheating goals in all this is focus. And so what do you mean by focus? What is focus? So what is important about focus again is that this idea of what are you not paying attention to? And so you mentioned like, let's say you just have a simple tasks to do which is oh I have to respond to that Email that I've not done for two days. And then go use it down at your computer, and you have a tab up and you get an alert saying something happened on Facebook. And all of a sudden, you're all over the place. So focus means. That you have a goal and you take the next step to actually achieve that goal. And you know, on a very concrete level one of the things, you know, in terms of technology and working on your computer is recommending that people don't have all their tabs that they minimize all the level of the Lert. So that they get about what's happening on social media. So in terms of definition, it's about doing what you intended to do in that moment. Which sometimes is so hard to do. It's it's weird. It's like, okay. This is what needs to get done. And somehow it's hard to do it. Well, okay. So the other thing that interferes with focus is called resistance, and this is kind of a silly example. But it comes up all the time people who cannot keep their car clean. And so they may say, okay. I'll even write it on my schedule. I will at ten o'clock today. I will go down and clean all that junk out of my car. And then that time comes and they have that resistance is that feeling I just don't feel like doing it. I can you know, have more important things to do or more interesting things to do. And so there's some pretty simple strategies for overcoming resistance. And one of them is what are the benefits of doing this? And what are the consequences of not doing this? And it really powerful one is you know, what I don't have to clean out the whole car. What I'll do is just go down there. And I'll for two minutes. I'll take stuff out. In order it. And then you can see anyone can do anything for two minutes. So what happens is you go down you've overcome that resistance, you stay focused, but the brain hack here the real trick is that sometimes just getting started you'll keep going. That's such a good example of people who don't clean their car. And I know people like that where really it wouldn't take much to bend over and pick up the straw wrapper in the in the the the Cup and all that and yet people don't and so what is it? Is it a priority? Pro what what prevents you from just doing it? I think it's that we make it into a big thing in our brain. And so that's why one of the most is going to be one of the most powerful. What I call super skills is chunking in. It means taking something that seems like a big job and making it a small job. So for example, cleaning the car if you say, I'm just going to do it five minutes every day. Nobody's going to have that much resistance to the five minutes, or so, for example, let's say you have a big project. That's do one thing. You might do is say, okay. Well before I can do the whole project. I actually just have to go get this resource in that book in order to, you know, make the references that I need, and and it's just one little step rather than and then I have to figure out the whole thing from the beginning to the end so chunking is going to be a super skill. That's going to allow you to overcome that problem of seemingly simple things that we take forever to get to will that example of for every day. I'm just gonna take a few. Minutes and do this my experiences that that lasts about two days and then go and then the third day. It's either forget to do it or something else comes up and it's hard to stick with. Yes. So this is at one thing that is a powerful tool for executive functioning and ADHD is prompts. And so this can be in have a funny story to tell which was there was this person who was driving their car, and they had a huge piece of furniture on the top of it. And they went through a very low ceiling parking garage. And of course, ruined everything that was on top of their car. And so one of the things that we talked about was he had to keep a little three by five card that said thing on top of car, and it seems really humorous, but choose Lee, we all need reminders, and it can't be three by five card. But we also have our cell phones that we can program to give us reminders. I mean, we have artificial intelligence in the poem of our hand to give us reminders anytime. We need them. Mm will because it seems that like when you say to yourself, you know, the cars messy, it's really important that I clean up the car. It's important then but three days later, maybe it's not so important something else is more important. And that's that's what gets left off the list another way to think about it is how good will I feel just to have this off my back. Sometimes the motivation isn't even the clean car. It's like I don't want this hanging over my head anymore. And so helping yourself to remember how good will I feel when this is done. But I think at least for me that's a big one. That's that's really big. It isn't so much that the car is cleaner than it was before. It's I don't have to worry about it at least for a while. Because it it's done. It's off the list. And now I can move past it. Exactly. And that it's funny that sometimes, you know, this is one of the things that depletes our attention are the things we're not doing because they hang in there with like we feel guilty about it. And we feel bad about ourselves and those are two negative emotions that are not going to help us to stay focused because we know that negative emotions interfere with focus. It's interesting. And I don't think it's just me. I think it's human nature. How something that? We don't want to do all of a sudden becomes attractive to do when faced with something even bigger that. We don't want to do for example. So you have a closet. You haven't cleaned it in months. It's a mess. You know, it needs to be clean, and you never clean it. And then now you have to do your taxes and so faced with taxes. All of a sudden, I think I have to go clean the closet first who wants to do their taxes. You know, that is such a that is one thing that is truly. An nobody wants to do that. Ben by comparison cleaning the closet seems more easy. And although before you didn't necessarily wanna clean the closet in contrast taxes. It seems like a good thing to do. But really in that situation as you're saying, it is a distraction, and so one of the ways that you can handle that is to realize that with the taxes. It's never going to be something that you like and saying what's at stake. If I don't get this done. What happens if I don't get my taxes done? And then it's like, okay that will be more paperwork, and what are the benefits of getting the taxes done will the best benefit of getting taxes done. Is you just have to stop think you get a break from it? You're done with it. You get it behind you. And so it is almost like our brain wants to choose something that's easier, and we fool ourselves that we're being productive. When actually what we are doing is avoiding taxes. And so in that situation. You can also say cleaning the closet is really just meet avoiding taxes. So let's get real doesn't just having a will thought out to do list solve a lot of this. If you know for me, I if I have a list of things, and I know I can go down the list and cross them off as I go. I'm just much more likely to do it. Well, I think that a to do list can be helpful one of the things that I recommend is that what whatever kind of to-do list that you have every day you have three high priority tasks because we can get lost in our to do lists. And we may not have a good strategy for figuring out what the priority in. What's not not a priority? I mean, like you said you on your your to do list, it could be taxes done in clean closet. Obviously, you know, that's not going to help you focus and do the most important thing. I, but it does seem that writing things down in some kind of order makes it more likely that things will get done than it all just sits in your head. And I don't know what to do next. Oh, absolutely. So one of the things I recommend is that like on a Sunday night right out pretty much everything you want to get done for the rest of the week. And then what you do is on Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday you right in. Three tasks for each day. And that way, you know, you highest priorities on Monday things that are not so timely on Friday. And so he then you put three main tasks on each day. Now that doesn't mean you're only doing three tasks that means those are the things at once you not those out, you know, you've you've you're on track you're on target. So absolutely used to do this. But you don't wanna have a fifteen item to do list sitting in front of you every morning you wake up. What do we know what a science tell us about the ability of of your brain to stay on task. And do a good job for how long before before performance starts to suffer. You know, there's the famous kind of Pomodoro technique which recommends that you work for twenty five minutes, and you take a break for five minutes, and then you work for twenty five minutes. And then you take a break for five minutes. But really what I have found is you have to find your own what I call focus dose. And it's and I think you can also. Is this a really hard task or isn't easy task? So you can find your own focus dose and for some people. It's twenty five minutes for some people. It can be an hour and for some people it's fifteen minutes. And then you do want to restore your attention and the healthiest things to restore your tension are going to be some kind of physical movement and believe it or not time in nature restores attention. And then go back to a task boy, everybody's different. But I know for me that will I once I get into a task, even if it's something I don't particularly like, although it helps if I do like it. But even if I don't like it that I've got a before I can stop and take a break. I've gotta get this some milestone, I've gotta get this some logical stopping point. I can't sit like a timer and say, okay, I'm going to stop. Now. I I can't do that. No, I think that that says a lot of good things about you. And I think that that's a good point that you you say something that is a really important point. Which is what I call the jet stream, which is we easily pay attention to what we're interested in. And so what I mean by jet stream is that when a plane flies in the same direction as the wind they go faster, and they take less gas to go the same distance. So when you're interested in what you're doing. You don't actually wanna have these forced breaks. And it seems like you are really interested in what you do. And so a lot of this idea of chunking things down and taking breaks is for those, you know, paperwork type tasks that are required for us to maintain our life, but are not necessarily where jet stream is. So that is a fantastic example that you're giving and when we when we are interested in something we can pay attention for hours. Well, I guess that's proof. It it it pays to enjoy. What you do feels like as you say that one of the things you're talking about is sort of an enthusiasm. Also, and that that can really be the greatest brain hack ever to actually be interested in what you're doing. So a lot of these tools are really meant for those things and it and it can be doing your taxes. Of course, something that most people don't like, but you know, for other people as we said, it can be, you know, cleaning the car out, it can be reading those emails that were not urgent those are things that help maintain our life. But we don't tend to have a lot of enthusiasm for we'll for me your suggestion of thinking about getting something off your back off your list. So you don't have to worry about it. And think about what happens if you don't get it done that. That's that's a real good motivator for me. And I think all these ideas will help people get done those things they need to get done. But don't particularly want to get done. Dr Laura Honus Webb has been my guest. She's a clinic. Psychologist and author of the book brain hacks, and you will find a link to her book in the show notes. Thanks, laura. Thank you so much. This is a lot of fun. It's considered pretty bad form to take photos at a funeral. But maybe we should take photos at funerals an article on the Huffington Post website, awhile ago, made the case that not taking photos at a funeral is a big mistake that you made later regret. Sure. It's not a happy occasion. But life is full of all kinds of emotions happy and sad. And remembering those emotional moments can be very satisfying later on you may not want to look at the photos anytime soon, but there will come a day when you will. Of course, a lot of people don't want their photos taken at a funeral people cry their makeup runs, and they don't look their best. So you obviously have to be respectful of people's wishes. But documenting the occasion provides a visual reminder of the love you showed and the care you took to honor. And celebrate the life of your loved one without the photos. You will forget the details in time. And that is something you should know if you haven't already you can subscribe to this podcast, it is free to do. So. And that way, you get all the episodes set right to your device, and you never miss a single one. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

executive Richard shell Wharton school of business professor university of Pennsylvania Dr Laura Mike Carruthers Dr Laura Honus Webb apple Intel academic director Geico Lincoln State Department Philadelphia Toyota
Compassion in Action

Blazing Trails

30:42 min | 2 years ago

Compassion in Action

"Welcome to the season. Two Finale of blazing trails. I'm Sabrina Barakzai ACCI social and content marketer for salesforce strategic events. Thank you so much for joining us on this season of blazing trails. We should stories about motivation. I offense leadership art activism and so much more on. Today's season finale. We're excited to bring you a special episode dedicated to compassion Russian in action respect decency compassion and taking care of yourself. All of these factors are critical and how we interact act in organizations and workplaces. There are those who give those who take and those who fall somewhere in between. Where do you stand? How can we understand Dan? How Compassionate works from an organization? How can we work to find purpose and meaning in the every day when we look back and see the mistakes and failures that we face? How can we employ self compassion? Adam grant is a professor at Wharton School of business a New York Times bestselling author last year. The force he joined us to talk about compassion feedback and his background as an organizational psychologist today. We'll hear some amazing funny and insightful disciple stories of his background at insights on compassion take a listen. Good morning everyone. I'm going to take you back about fifteen years. I was working my first real job in advertising and I had heard this guy who I thought was going to be a creative genius and then he decided not to do any work and he fell way behind on a major deadline and I was watching. This happened and I had a choice to make. Do I speak up or do I stay silent and I know my whole life. I've been the person who stayed silent in elementary school. I remember getting called to the principal's office. I got there. I found how does not in trouble and I still cried after that traumatic experience and not only followed all the rules. I made a list of rules that didn't exist yet and I followed those was to just in case one day somebody created them and I was. I was just terrified of getting in trouble but I felt like in this situation. I had to act so it looked around the organization. I found the person who I new have my back. There was my boss boss. She had nominated for an award once she would stop by my desk every week to talk about survivor which meant I had to watch survivor. And I'm Marsha Office. I said look this is a terrible injustice. Nobody should ever be treated this way. But I'm also worried this guy's GonNa quit and if you think we're behind on a deadline now just wait wait until he marches out the door deep breath. Nothing bad happened except suddenly my boss's boss is dragging me down the hallway and shoving me into a dark room and the lights go on them totally disoriented. Because I'm somewhere I've never been in my entire life. Standing Smack in the center of the women's bathrooms turns out. That's the only room on our floor with no windows and my boss's boss tells me that if I ever speak out of turn again I'm going to be fired so made a few decisions after that experience. The first one was that I was never never gonNa have a real job where someone could fire me. This was the drove university. Tenure clear relief. The second decision was that I was going to go and become an organizational psychologist and I was going to study how we could create organizations where people were treated with real respect and decency and compassion. And that's a lot of what I've been trying to do over the past decade and half and then the third goal was to never friggin enter women's bathroom check so I went off to graduate school and I started studying the dynamics of helping others and I found really early on that there. We're three different mindsets that people brought in their interactions. There were givers. Who constantly asked? What can I do for you there? Were takers who are asking. What could you do for me? And most of us were right in the middle of that spectrum matters saying look I'm GonNa play it safe all something for you if you do something for me and it was very clear that nobody wants to work takers. And that if we could build organizations of givers that we would end up having more compassion but also more productivity because givers are willing to do all sorts of things that are not in their job description but critical to the success of their teams and the organizations and so I really wanted to understand. How do we build cultures where we can speak to the motivations? The people have to help support others to respond to suffering and try to contribute to the success of something larger than themselves and I came across this amazing exercise that was invented. Anybody Wayne and Cheryl Baker and Hugh Max they said look the biggest barrier to compassion to generosity and organizations is actually. The people are afraid to ask for help. Because has they don't WanNa look vulnerable. They don't want to embarrass themselves and so they don't ask as often as they should and then we have a lot of frustrated dippers who would be perfectly happy to step up and contribute if only they knew who could benefit and how so they created this exercise it's called the rest of and they said all you do. Is You gather a group of people and you ask them all to make a request for something they want or need but cannot get on their own and then you challenge everybody else in that group to try to help and respond to the needs that other people are bringing to the table. And that's the whole exercise everybody asks and everybody tries to give and you see some pretty unusual requests early on on. We had somebody say my dream is to see a Bengal tiger in the wilds. Where like that's what you ask for? You could ask for anything why that is guys like you don't understand I was the tiger every year for Halloween is a child. I root for all the sports teams that have tiger in their name and all the universities that do even though I've never lived in any of those places or gone to any of those schools rules and I just really want to be part of a world where Bengal tigers roam free. No one in the room has ever set foot on a continent where that's possible but one person the room says I might have contact for you and makes an introduction and a month later. This guy is flying out for a private tour of a game preserve now. Unfortunately the Tigers got just kidding but never would have happened if you hadn't floated that request to a group of people with different knowledge in different networks willing to step up and support each other so I thought what a great exercise to run it by classrooms. I WANNA gotta get students in the habit of helping others but I also WanNa get them in the habit of really asking and being comfortable putting their knees out on the table and a few years ago. I had a student in Alex who said I haven't really told anybody this. But my dream is to work at six flags amusement parks. I just believe riding. Roller coasters is Nirvana and I would love to be part of that. But strangely six flags is not recruit at the Wharton School of business. Does anyone know my way to get my foot in the door and another student in Andrew Jumps in and he says I might have an idea for you to Andrew does a little five minute favor. Great idea just a small way of adding value to other people's lives a micro loan of your time your connections or your skills sales to others and a few weeks later. Alex comes into class and I asked for an update so what happened now accessible. You won't believe this but I just got off the phone with the former. CEO Six flax ax. I'm like this is the greatest thing that's ever happened in my classroom did he. Did he get you a job. The open up other connections and Alec says even better and he breaks out out in this huge grin and he says I learned so much that I now know I never want to work in that industry and I was depressed for a little while but then I realized did Alex could now rule out that tree and go on to pursue others. And I'm proud to report that he did follow one of his dreams and is now gainfully employed as a management consultant Who Swears that one day? He will fix the broken amusement park industry. But I think this is a powerful powerful exercises something we could all run in our work in our communities is or any part of our lives gather group of people have them all make requests and the beauty of it is that the givers are willing to ask. When everybody is expected to make a request they still cheap? They ask on behalf of other people and they're like Oh. I have a request for my daughter or my friend for my colleague. And that's not really the point of the exercise. But I I suppose if you need a gateway drug to get the hard stuff of asking for yourself so be it also end up giving which is sort of unusual for them because because they know that all the contributions are visible so if you do it in a small group people volunteer to help out loud if you do it in a large group people sign up on flip charts and the takers. No no if they don't volunteer everyone's GonNa know they're a taker. And I don't WanNa get caught so we actually find that they've tripled their contributions during exercise relative to what they would normally give give and the biggest effect we find is on the mattress. These people who believe in quid pro quo because they walk away realizing that sodden efficient way to manage a community or a team. Because the odds I can help the same person who helped me a pretty low right. What works best here is I make a request? Somebody helps me and then somebody else. This happens helps that person. If we all salvage this norm of generosity we can all get more of what we want and I know this is such a cool exercise. I came across this call. Senator Apple Tree answers which had ninety seven percent annual turnover. If you can imagine your entire staff quitting every year having to Rehire retrain some of you are lack back. If I work with takers that would be a good thing but this what if we we established the same process and we create an internal make a wish foundation where every single single one of our employees can make a request and then we try to help granite the implement this program and within six months their turnover drops to thirty three percent. And it wasn't us us. Getting requests fulfilled. It was knowing that you worked for a company that believed in allowing you to make requests and created a forum where people could help each other and support each other and I think if we can do dad we can move a little bit toward compassion at work. But I don't think this is without problems because the more generous you are the more committed you are to giving having the more you get a reputation for being helpful and then pretty soon no good deed goes unpunished. Because everybody wants something from you we see this. Healthcare allows called compassion fatigue and sadly the very people who are supposed to take care of us and up themselves exhausted and burned out and then they're not able to help anymore and pretty soon. They're just saying you know what I can't step up. And what are the most important things I've learned about how to overcome. That has to do with how you organize you're giving and helping. So they're two different strategies that we find what is called sprinkling where you say look. I'm going to do a little bit for other people every day. The other is chunking where you say. I'm I'M GONNA pick one day and make my day generosity every week. Sonia Lubomirski colleagues actually randomly assigned people to do one or the other. So imagine you're going to do five random acts of kind of next week if you sprinkle. You'll do one of those each day. If you chunk you're GONNA say Thursday's my giving day and I'm GonNa do all five acts that day and then she follows them. She has this him do this for ten weeks and she follows them to see who gets happier. How many people think the sprinklers get happier? Raise your hands fleas one act generosity everyday booster booed. How many tickets the junkers who get happier? That looks like a minority in the minority is actually right in this case. Only one group gets anything out of this exercise. And that's the junkers. If you do one random act of kindness every day for other people it does nothing whatsoever for your mood or your happiness penis. It might help other people but it's useless for you the junkers on the other hand. Get a sustainable boost. In energy that lasts for the full ten weeks that they pick one giving day every single week. And we think that's because sprinkling is like a drop in the bucket doesn't feel like you've really made a difference whereas when you pick that one day to be helpful you have those five acts add up and you're like I had an impact today I feel like I made a contribution and it's also much more efficient as opposed to distracting from your other priorities. And so I think this is something we can all do. The data show just two hours of volunteering a week in the. US and Australia is enough to boost health and even longevity and I think if you pick one day right as opposed to trying to spread this out throughout your week. It's a lot easier to be compassionate without sacrificing yourself. The other thing that we've learned learned about compassion fatigue which I think is really critical. I stumbled into it a call center and I have to say I walked into this call center and the people there were not at all concerned concerned about other humans and I was. I was depressed at first but then I was walking around the call center. It was a university fundraising initiatives so they were calling alumni and trying to get them to donate their hard earned money. This was not at all what the job was about. They were fundraising for all sorts of important initiatives. That we're supporting student scholarships faculty salaries Gallery's new buildings on campus and I began to realize that part of the problem with these fundraising colors is they. They had no idea where the money they raise was going so so I thought what if we showed them their impact. What if we connect the dots and read a simple experiment just randomly assigned some of the callers to meet one scholarship student at the University of Michigan and then he came in and he said look? Michigan is in my blood quite literally. My brother was conceived after Michigan Football. Game we cannot afford those out of state tuition. But I've always wanted to come here and because of the work that you do I was able to get a scholarship and now I can attend school at the place that I've always wanted to go and I just want to thank you all so much for the work. That you do to make scholarships like mine possible. Five minute interaction with one. Scholarship student month later the average callers spiked one hundred forty two percent in weekly minutes on the phone. And and one hundred seventy one percent in weekly money raised just that one person knowing how that person benefited from the work. It completely changed the task from. I'm harassing a bunch of alumni into. I'm trying to do something that will serve a group of students and I think too often. We stayed disconnected and distance from the people that our actions are ultimately early helping if we can connect those dots at work meeting the customers or clients or users of our products. Or if you have internal customers or clients the people who actually benefit from your worked inside your organization knowing what contribution you bake is a huge driver sustaining energy and being able to avoid burnout and when you look at compassion fatigue it turns out people. People do not burn out because they give too much. They burn out because they gave without feeling like they're having an impact and so we can overcome that by showing them look. Here's Y your work matters. Here's why your contributions help others. I thought those were some useful things about compassion. But I learned after a couple of years that I was missing one of the most important dimensions of this and it took me back actually. It's an article that was in the Harvard Crimson. Back in about two thousand three. It was about Harvard's first online social network and it was story about how a bunch of Harvard students got into college. They were afraid they wouldn't have any friends and so they started searching online to see who else was going to be entering their freshman class and they found a few people and they started email list and then by the spring they had over one hundred people on this email list by the time in September. They arrive drive for college. They had connected more than an eighth of the entering class. And then they arrived on campus and they said we all know each other face to face. We don't need this online social network at work and they disbanded and then five years. Later Mark Zuckerberg started facebook in the dorm next door now. The CO founders of that first online social network have lived with deep regret ever since that and I know this because I was one of those co-founders. Yeah that's how I felt too. Thanks for that. Aw I never would've started facebook. I don't know how to Code. I wouldn't have had marks vision or Cheryl's business acumen but it is really painful info to look back and see the mistakes the failures that we faced and it turns out in those circumstances. It's one of the best things that we can do is we can. Actually he developed self compassion. I think it's the maybe the most important and most overlooked form of compassion not showing kindness toward others who are suffering but kindness toward ourselves when we are suffering and this happens at all kinds of situations right as relevant to failures. It's relevant to mistakes and accidents and all kinds of embarrassing harassing cringe worthy moments that we might experience and I think that we're pretty bad doing this overall and especially for those of you who are fans of mindfulness you. You might be a specially bad at it because if you're into mindfulness it's all about living in the moment when you just failed. The moment sucks. There is nowhere you want to be anywhere near that moment. Right you rather be in the past or in the future definitely not now because he wants to confront those feelings of inadequacy and guilt and shame and incompetence. Let's self compassion is about trying to gain distance from that moment by offering yourself the same kindness that you would give to a friend who was suffering offering or struggling mark leary and his colleagues. Did this really cool experiment where they had people think about a big failure that they'd experienced where they forgot their lines in a school play or they bombed the test or they didn't make the soccer team and then some of them were randomly assigned to think positive and write about their strikes and affirm their self esteem others others were randomly assigned to try to find compassion by writing a letter to themselves showing themselves the same kindness and understanding that they would normally give to a friend and that second can croup on average was forty percent happier and twenty four percent less angry after writing that letter showing themselves compassion. And I think this is something we could all do right. The first thing that I I started doing after learned about this research was to write about all the reasons I should forgive myself for not starting facebook. And it's become a really useful full step throughout various realms in my professional life and part of the reason for that is I became a professor and I was terrified of public speaking absolutely frightened of it and so I thought I need some practice. What I'm GonNa do is I'm going to volunteer to give guest lectures for other people's classes and that way I wouldn't have a whole semester to build relationships? I'm I'm just getting evaluated on how I do on stage so I went gave some guest lectures and I ended up feedback forms afterward and said tell me what I can do to get better and also you know what strengths I should build on and the comments were brutal. I will never forget the one student who wrote you are so nervous that you're causing me physically shaped by seat. The only much later did I realize that this was this would have been really useful in my mind magician. David says like wow cool. I can transfer by emotions across the room. This is powerful but that was extremely uncomfortable to go through and the thing that I learned that was so relevant to self compassion there was. I can't control the evaluation that I've gotten after I've given a speech or todd class right. That's already happened. And that's true anytime you failed or screwed up or run into any any kind difficulty where you can control your response to that failure or that adversity and so what what's often recommended is to give yourself a second score where you say. Look I might have gotten a C. minus for this presentation but I still get an a plus for how I deal with the feedback from that presentation so I said Look I wanna I wanNA try to improve my second score and even if I'm not going to be good at this task I'm going to be good at taking critical feedback and so I just kept asking after every single lecture that I gave. How could I improve? What's the one thing I could do to get better? And I started to get more and more comfortable in the classroom and then I got invited to teach a group of colonels and generals in the US Air Force and this is a bad idea. The in retrospect because I walked in there and I basically had this staring back at me. The average person in the room was about fifty. They were twice my age. They had hundreds rids and hundreds of hours of flying experience. Managing multibillion dollar budgets. I was a twenty five year old with a brand new PhD. And I was supposed to tell them how to lead so I felt like when I had to do was I had to establish credibility and I walked in there and started discussing my credentials and they just. They looked like they were about to shoot me. An afterward the feedback forums were even harsher than the ones that I've gotten from undergraduates. One one of the colonels route there was more knowledge in the audience than on the podium. Because like yeah that's true. Thank you and then another one wrote. I gave nothing from this session but I trust the instructor gain useful insight film. It's like a dagger to the heart. And so I said okay I can score. How am I gonNA take this feedback? Well unfortunately I committed to give another session for another a group of air force colonels a week later. So I didn't have time to reboot my four hours of content. All I could do is change the way that I established a connection with them at the start of the session as it all right before I had tried to lead with competence now try to lead with humility and let them know that I don't actually here and we're going to try to learn together so I walked in and I I said look I know what you're thinking right now. What could I possibly learn from a professor who's twelve years old and it was just dead silent? The the only sound that I could hear was my racing heartbeat and then after what felt like an eternity one of the colonels piped in and he was like that's ridiculous. I'm pretty sure you're thirteen. The completely broke the ice. I delivered a near carbon copy of the same class I had taught before but the evaluations were completely different. They said things like although junior and experience the professor dealt with material. Interesting way. And we're GONNA manage more and more millennials. Now it's kind of cool to learn from someone who almost is what it was a great lesson for me that a big part of self compassion is being willing to put our weaknesses out there right being willing to be vulnerable and let other people see that we're human. I'm an imperfect that's the only way we learned if the only way we get better is to say look. I am a work in progress and to do that. We have to be willing to forgive ourselves for the mistakes that want to experience. The magic of dream greenforce but don't have a full conference poss- we are thrilled to invite to register for Free Expo plus pass for access to select events on Thursday and Friday a dream force head over to to drink force dot com slash free to register now with the free pass. You'll learn about the latest innovations at select product and industry keynotes test drive thousands solutions access hundreds of partners in the customer Success Expo and network with fellow trailblazers again registered dream force DOT com slash free. And we'll see you in just a few days self. Compassion comes in many forms. Standing up and asking for feedback is another way to have others to to support your own development and better yourself grant also touches on the daughter effect which shows a common pitfall incompassion. Let's dive type back in into Adam. Grants talk from last dream force all about compassion in action. I'm just stunned by how the floodgates opened and how I hear suggestions for improvement men constructive criticism complaints that I never got before and I. I think there's something really powerful about standing up and saying look here are some of the most unpleasant things that I've heard about myself and look I'm able to take it right. I'm willing to listen to it and I think it's it's a great way to get other people to help you. Learn which is ultimately the best path to self compassion is to get other people to support you in your own development and it feels a lot like having a group of people who were formerly evaluating your now turning into your coaches. It doesn't whoever played sports or donate any kind of performance art. You never threatened by negative feedback from your coach because your coach was there to help you. That was the whole purpose of having a coach and I think the most of the people that we work with if we could view them that way that their sole goal is to develop us and try to make us more successful. Then it's a lot easier to have compassion for ourselves. We do to fall. Short of our expectations or short are targets or short of other people's expectations for that matter and I think self compassion is really critical because one of the things that happens is if you lack it then can you end up just beating yourself up over and over again when you struggled or suffered as opposed to having concern for other people as opposed to being able to help others and express compassion for others and I think if we don't model and develop compassion for ourselves. It's really difficult then to show the kind of concern for others that we want to. The last thing that I want to highlight is something that was not on my radar until far far too recently which is about nine years ago I had my first child and she was the daughter and all of a sudden I became just extremely attuned to all the inequality that women face in the worlds. And I think all all of you know all the data that have come out and I don't need to go through all the points but what I want to say is. It's amazing how little change we are willing willing to tolerate and willing to accept those of you who saw the Leinen McKinsey report last month. Showing that half of men and a third of women I thought that if you had ten percent of your executives as women that was enough I don't know about you but from my perspective that is not enough and the reality is that there are a lot of people who lack compassion when we look at the kinds of gender bias that we see in the world's and I'm embarrassed that I spent too many years thinking that there weren't a lot of gender differences when I started studying giving give or take matters I didn't even bother to look at differences between men and women. I said look you know what we're in the twenty first century. We're at a point. Finally where people are being evaluated evaluated for their contributions not based on their gender and then Sheryl Sandberg started grilling me on gender differences in my data. And I couldn't answer the questions. So it's been a whole flight across the country reanalyzing a decade of my data and I. I was horrified by what I found. I found that the men and women when men helped other people they got rewarded for it and celebrated people are like wow I never would have expected a man to care about another human being. I must now shower him with praise rewards when women helped it was taken for granted. It was like she's she's caring. She's communal she wants to help. And women had to do a lot. More helping the men to get the same performance evaluations even if they were equally excellent at their jobs. It's I also found that when men spoke up they got a pat on the back foot. When women had ideas and suggestions they were either barely heard or they were judged as too aggressive jeff and there was this really unfortunate double bind and I started thinking about what we can do to open our eyes all of our because we all have biases to the the fact that we're still not at a place where we're anywhere near equality of opportunity and I came across the staggering evidence which says one of the most powerful things that can happen to a man and is having a daughter House like yes? I've experienced this. It turns out if you look at a study of ten thousand Danish CEO's if their firstborn child eldest daughter they will pay their employees more generously especially female employees. If you look at legislators in America and average bridge male voters in the UK you will see that those with daughter some more likely to vote and supportive reproductive rights and by the way those of you were like wait a minute. Correlation isn't causation. Actually it is in this case. Because there's no way that you're voting patterns can cause you to have a daughter instead of his son or it caused your pay decisions right the gender of your firstborn child is pretty much randomly assigned venture capital partners. Have you in. Silicon Valley will know. There's some recent evidence that if venture capital partners have daughters they are more likely to have gender diversity in their partnership represented the highest levels of their firm and if every single venture intercapitalist had a daughter. Instead of a son on average they would have ten percent higher chances of a successful. IPO that produces positive returns. So I thought this was great news and I have to tell you after reflecting on this for a few years I think this is incredibly sad. I think this is a severe our failure of empathy and compassion. Why do we have to wait to have a daughter in order to care about women's and I will tell you that I embarrassed that it took having two daughters for me to wake up to this issue as opposed to saying I have a mother? I have a sister lots of female friends and aunts and cousins. It shouldn't be until we have a female infant that were carrying for that. We start to care about these issues. I and I think the compassion part of compassion is recognizing when other people are facing disadvantage when they are not given the same opportunities that we are that we have to step up. And do something about it. And I want to speak of in particular the white men in this room to say that if you look at the data Dave Heckman and his colleagues have studied this and they found that when women and minorities advocate for diversity. They get penalized for it. It seen as self serving like they're trying to advantage own group whereas when white men advocate for diversity they actually get rewarded for it. They're seen as good guys who are trying to do the right thing and I think. If there's one place to use white male privilege it might be an advocating for people who are neither neither white or neither male so when you think compassion. I think it's worth thinking about how you can get people to ask for help. More often and know that will bring out the compassionate others. It's worth thinking about how you can make sure sure that you manage the cost of helping others so that your own compassion does not come at your expense and so that you sustain your energy to be able to support others giving compassion into yourself not just to other people and also to those who are less fortunate than you. I think if we had a world where more people did that we live in a slightly less awful world than we do right now. I hope you all will help me create that world. Thank you this podcast brought to you by Plibo Leo Cloud. Api Platform and a global carrier services services provider learn more at www dot co dot com. Thank you so much for joining us for this amazing season pleasing trails. We've got a few discovering and listening to some of the most thought provoking insightful conversations from salesforce events around the world. We're so excited to see all the dream force in just a few days be sure to join the conversation online with Hashtag D. F. Eighteen and to follow US across social media at Dream Force. These churches subscribe on Itunes. Or wherever you listen to podcasts and keep up with exclusive content from trailblazers around the world. We'll see you in twenty nineteen for season three of blazing trails.

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Father James Martin: What Good Is Prayer?

Everything Happens with Kate Bowler

36:28 min | 2 months ago

Father James Martin: What Good Is Prayer?

"I'm capable are is everything happens. I'm a historian author aggressively fast walker but lately in a world that promises endless progress even now in a pandemic. I have realized i just need to be a person. It's hard to give up on the feeling that the life you want is just out of reach. If only you tried this find that relationship. Just get the kids graduated or the parents this kind of care only then will i feel different better hole. But that's not the way this works. When i was thirty five i was diagnosed with stage four cancer. And here's the fun thing about that. The world loves you better when you are shiny when you are cheerful when you still believe that your best life now is right around the corner. I've written multiple books on the history of the idea that you can always your life. So i'm going to be the one to say it. There are some things we can change and some things we can't and it's okay that life isn't always getting better. We can have beauty and meaning community and love and we will need each other before going to tell the truth. Life is a chronic condition. And there's no cure for being human. This is a strange distended moment. The sameness of a world that groans for change we need justice for all and vaccine for these seven point nine billion people who woke up this morning. We need beauty that stirs our hearts and affordable healthcare for the parts of us that keep breaking. We need things to do because sometimes we are tara board and then wait. Why do i have so many things to do today. That i could scream. And why isn't there any season of ted lasso yet. There is hope for some day but some day is not now. There's a christian version of this story and it's one that people around the world recognized this week. It's called holy week. It begins with jesus welcomed like a hero. Expectations are soaring. He will fix everything but by the end of the week. His best friends betray him. He is convicted as a criminal and sentenced to death. He will rise from the dead and someday bring this world to a beautiful conclusion and wipe every tear from every eye. There is hope for someday but some day is not now and here. We are living between good. Friday and easter sunday before the cure or the vaccine or the answers you seek or relationships in money you need. We live here before the heartbreak is over. Perhaps it is here. We might need to learn how to pray. You might be wondering but kate. I know you don't know me. But prayer really seems. A bit sanctimonious what have i don't believe in god or at least i don't believe that prayer works. What if i'm not the kind of person who prays. Why are you being so bossy. About this full disclosure. I am not an amazing player. But i do love people who pray and today. I thought we could talk to a wonderful person who can help give us a little bit more spiritual language to be here a little scared a little disappointed. A little hopeful. The reverend james martin is a jesuit priest and editor at large of america magazine. He's the author of many award. Winning books like jesus pilgrimage between heaven and mirth and his latest learning to pray he is a regular cultural voice on the subjects of religion and the media and he is the official chaplain of the colbert nation. As in stephen colbert. No big deal prayer. He believes is for everyone believer doubter. And no thank you or that's a new word. I just came up with right now. Father martin. I hope you like it. I am so glad to be speaking with you today. My pleasure good to be with you. I'm always very interested in the lives of holy people but they tend to be a little bit. I don't know Inaccessible like they're always having wondrous visions of the lord before preschool. I'm sure that's exactly what happened to you. I went to the university of pennsylvania and studied at the wharton school of business. And i took a job with general electric This is in the early eighties. Probably before you were born. And i worked for g. for six years at a great time. And then i just felt. Like i was in the wrong place and picked up a book by thomas merton The trappist monk. Oh i know you now and That just changed my life. I just thought this is a better way. I mean it was. I didn't see. I didn't have a vision or hear voices. I just felt this attraction. Which is how god calls the through our desires our attractions and now ended up as a jesuit priest. I i'm sure you get these stories all the time i have a wonderfully mixed history With the catholic church. I was for instance kicked out of my all girls catholic school which is actually a story. I cherished yes. They had been giving out what they called a jug judgment on. I know that's a jesuit phrase. Right yes and i was It turns out. That's that's how i found out exactly. How many wiffle balls there were in saint. Mary's academy count them martin. That's also high discovered. They had three unicycles which was glorious for years. Afterwards i worked for jesuit priests who i love more than everyone. I got to help them get ready for mass in. Bring out all the precious things and chat with my very favorites Boy still keep in touch with. And so look my lovely jesuit friend. I know every kind christian has a different angle on the life of faith. But what is especially jesuit about your understanding of prayer. And what not i would think that it's the idea that this is not specific to just jesuits but it is something. Just what's really love. God me where you are that god meets you where you are and therefore the way that you like to pray the way. The kate likes to pray the way. The jim likes to pray the way that you know. Whoever's listening to this podcast likes to pray is where god is going to meet them. And so you don't have to pray in the way that your neighbor does your friend or your priest or your spiritual director does and that's really consoling for people because it it relieves them of this notion that there's one right way to pry. There's no should. They're very few should in the spiritual life. I know i was teasing you about being a spiritual professional. I do get that a little bit. Sometimes because i teach at a divinity school that awkward moment like on a plane when we used to go things and then people say like what do you do. You're like oh i and all of a sudden they're apologizing for swearing or drinking that tiny plain winds. But why is there. No such thing as an expert in prayer because we're always learning. It's like being an expert in love. Imaginable said let's say you're married for fifty years. You probably ask you know the couple. Are you an expert in love. They would probably laugh in your face. right prayer. Always learning something new and blast a year while two years ago when we still went on retreats. i was on a retreat and my spiritual director. My retreat director suggested a new way of praying. And i said no. I can't do that in pushed me. And i i did it and it you know went really well so you know here. I am after thirty years as a jesuit learning. So we're never we're not. I mean i think we can get Used to it and proficient at it you know it's like riding a bike But i don't think trevor experts right wrong but then how will i find my superiority and wielded over other. Yeah right. that's the sad about a holy week. I mean this is jesus. You know i mean in the end you know. He subordinates himself and he gives everything up. So you're right. It's it's not about the about downward mobility as one jesuit once. Said i love that. Yeah yes that is. My very favorite part of still being a christian is That we are. We are on the side of the losing team. Yeah right we're on the side of jesus and that that is the best part of the best part of being a christian person and it's jesus. Yeah yeah i would love the end of that century. And it's bob actually lists right. That's right and it's the money so it's all about the laurie exactly right. What is prayer. Exactly i know it sounds like a simple question but it sounds like it's got a layered answer. No it's a good question. I think it's It's an important question. People don't know what prayer is i go through a lot of definitions in the book which i will spare you. There's five or six definitions. And i end up with prayers conscious conversation with god That takes place within the context of a personal relationship with god. And so it's it's intentional right. It's and it's it's a two way street now. What does that mean when people hear about listening to god they say. Oh my gosh. What does that mean like hearing voices or seeing visions. No it's about attention to what happens in your prayer as an as well as in your daily life but it is. It's a conversation it's it's back and forth. It's you sharing your yourself with god and it's also god sharing god's self on with you in different ways so it's yeah. The conversation i think is my favorite way of looking at it and within the context of that personal relationship. Where does that desire. Come from then to do it like i. I'm i'm just thinking of different moments in my life. They lead to very different kinds of prayers. Like ours in the hospital are man. There's the there's the prayers when you're in pain like please make this stop or prayers have complete and wonder where you just. You can't even believe how lucky you feel just to be breathing. How else would god draw us. Closer right other than by awakening in us that desire for prayer. And so that can really help people in the beginning of the spiritual life and. I'm sure you know this. Because once they're sort of encouraged to understand that this is where the desire comes from they feel less alone and it's less. You know kate or jim is being curious. Be curious about. I don i like you know. Hang gliding or parasail. I'm just trying to pick something like it's kind of a curiosity. Rather it's it's a response to a call from god and that makes people a lot more comfortable with it. This is kind of a strange question. So bear with me. When i was in my first year of cancer treatment i released started Really doubling down on my use of the f. Word much more frequently and to be honest. I really picked it up during the season of lent. I remember it very clearly. I was on a six hour break from the hospital. And my friend and i went to this thriving little catholic church near the hospital. Where all the loveliest people. I'm sure wanted to hear ways in which lent was making us a tiny bit better and the priest used the phrase tiny bit described how this might work like think about volunteering once or twice. Be nice to people at work or don't forget your gifts or special. And then he doled out the ashes with all the cheer of snow white. Sending her industrious dwarfs off to the mines. And i lost my mind. I started yelling. Things in the car. Like people are trying to easter the crap out of my lent. 'cause all i wanted was honesty. So how can prayer be a place of radical honesty for us. So many people feel that they're inappropriate emotions in prayer. Anger is a big one disappointment frustration. I shouldn't be angry at god. I should be more grateful. And you know we're all supposed to be grateful mark attitude but sometimes we're just look if you're going through cancer treatment and you're going through iman radiation and i'd radiation that a year or two ago. For benign tumor. You know i wasn't. It's not something i wanted and so can you be honest with god about these things. That doesn't mean all you do is complain. But it does mean that if you're upset or worried or sick or frightened or despairing even and not express that is going to get in the way of your relationship because it's going to be this big block there. I did feel very I think a lot of the the joyful profanity of that season for me was feeling very censored by religious people in particular about whether or not you know. When you're sick people love to freight you with their own questions about god and whether you're confident enough about heaven or you know enough about where we're god is really taking you in your life like well. He took me to a super garbage garbage. I think i yeah. It did help just to say. I am so bleeping angry right now naive because i felt i felt sometimes christians just wanted me to die very politely. Just gently gently did that into that. Good night well you know. Look there's a lot of people who are angry in the scriptures. I mean along lord that psalm. Thirteen that doesn't sound like they're too happy about stuff. And hey jesus gets angry in the gospels uses gets angry in the temple he gets angered his disciples. He calls him a faithless and perverse generation. It's really strong. He gets angry. The big tree You know so. He's he's upset and he's human. How can we not be angry from time to time. And how can we not express that to gut now. The key is god's response to us where we noticing it where we seeing it and can we be open to that too. Yeah well. I like the response from god where i just pray something very specific and then i receive. It happens right. i remember very clearly. My very first did in com- incredibly transactional prayer. When i prayed for a guy named matthew to really really like me and then he did and i was on it. Was it for my will be done. I think we're laughing about that. But it's okay to pray for what you want. Yeah i mean that's you know you stand before the creator of the universe if you have briskly in in the situation you're talking about if you have cancer you're struggling you're lost your job or how can you not ask for that. Yeah and i'm going to drop. I'm gonna drop a name. That's from carl reiner. I dislike him. I read to read an entire year of carl. Carl reiner so he has a lot to say man. Wow thanks systematic theology just on writing more volumes. Sprees beautiful book called the need and blessing of prayer and he says this is the model prayer which actually changed the way. I pray because it's so beautiful honesty. Trust and acceptance. Yeah yeah yeah. I honesty right honesty. He's you know he's honest. You know at the garden gets emini. We're talking about this during holy group week. Remove this cup. That's honest and then trust right. So at the tumor. Lazarus he says. I know you hear me. And then acceptance right not not my will but your will be done and so but you know a lot of people which is which is why we're talking about this. A lot of people short circuit the first step. Which is honesty right right. You can't just go right to. They will be done. It's just it's it's not honest. yeah at least as i see it. I think people at least need to be able to be honest in prayer and express themselves like that. Honesty trust acceptance. If i'm interpreting step to right we sink into the possibility that something might that. Something might happen or that. God hears i think weirdly. That is something. I learned from the ten years. I spent researching the prosperity gospel. I was involved with All these Folks who believe that. God wants to give them health and wealth and happiness and while i disagree with the The nature of the promises that we are The guarantees for life. You're on earth. I was continually blown away by their joy at just imagining what god might do. It was it was like it was it had wonder built into it that i found really kind of lovely to be around as opposed to some of the churches that i joyfully support. Who when i got sick. You could tell they were like a little bit nervous about praying for me just in case like as if the is if we all had to protect our reputations like oh let's let's let's not push the envelope of stage four cancer meaning meaning because it might not happen we would put ourselves on the line. I think you have to. I think it's somewhere in between. Because i think that You know. I think god wants good things for us but simply because we believe in god does not mean. Everything's going to go right. And you know i hate to say it but you know look at jesus jesus. Jesus was crucified and You know my gosh. You know all the saints who suffered and people are wholly who suffer and that doesn't mean they're doing something. I mean as you now. You've studied this more than i have. It doesn't mean they're doing something wrong. That's part of life. But i do think the you're right there is there. Is that call for trust. But there's also called for that that's where the acceptance comes in and that's what jesus inviting us to. I don't like that. I know it's don't like where this is going. But the point is that in the key is the relationship with god. What enables us to do that is that he has this deep relationship with god. That's what enables us to to face these crises and if people feel kind of weirded out by the word relationship with god laying. What do you say to them. I think the key is kate. You start to ask them or invite them to talk about places where they feel that they've encountered god and almost everyone has that you know some moment in their life or moments usually right where you know there at the birth of a child or some moment in nature or something in a in a church or hearing a him or there's something that people can point to usually many things and then you say then you say look you think that was god and they usually say yes. I believe that. I believe and then you say it. Sounds like i was reaching out to you. Yes that's true well and it sounds like god wants our relationship with you. Say okay. I get it because usually it. They think it's some weird weird thing. But it's basically noticing regattas active in your life got communicating with you. So it's it's just usually getting them to kind of see that it's already happening. It's already happening. They just need to be invited to see it encouraged to see it. It's a nice message for like two bad. it's already there absolutely. It's very uncomfortable for some people but for other people talking on one one there. And i think it's a service to it's it's it's a ministry to and this is the minister spiritual direction to allow people to see where god is already present. That's a great thing to be able to do for someone. Then they're eiser kind of open then. It's like wow. I didn't realize i wasn't recognizing that. Yeah yeah again. Different plotline. that's nice. We'll be right back. I'm a big fan of sleep. Which is that thing you do when you close your eyes and then when you open them again it's morning so it's basically time travel and my name is marny fly but if you're me sleep is getting more and more difficult to come by because you know a global plague and you end up staying up really late for dumb reasons binging that show everyone is talking about but fun fact compared to average sleepers sleep number bed owners enjoy almost a hundred more hours of proven quality sleep per year. I bought a sleep number bed. And i really like it because it lets me pick a number that matches the firmness or softness. My body needs. And if i want something different i can just change the number which is great. Because i don't have enough upper body strength to move mattress down the stairs anyway. The sleep iq technology inside the bed tracks while you're sleeping and gives you personalized insights for your best sleep proven quality. Sleep is life changing sleep. Introducing the new sleep number three sixty c four. Smart bed queen now. Only fourteen ninety nine only at sleepnumber stores or sleepnumber dot com slash. Everything now back to the show we have this. We have this lovely little community here at the everything happens project that really carries a lot. There's a lot of nurses and doctors and healthcare workers and caregivers and people who are really Losing things that are dear to them a marriage a child their health loss of As one of our guests put it like the loss of an imagined future. How many you tell them to pray or even to start approaching prayer if they're if they're really in the midst of maybe one of the hardest seasons of their lives simple thing would be their christian imagining jesus sitting bronson. They're sitting next to them or walking with them and just talked on going to pour your heart out. Because i think for people are in pain. That's one of the most important things to be honest. And not to edit yourself right and then be attentive again. I talk about this in the book to what comes up. In prayer emotions desires insights memories feelings words and phrases images be attentive to what comes up ever person going through a tough time. That can be really helpful. The other thing very briefly is called the examination of conscience which is a review of the day that you do at the end of the day and one of the pieces of it is gratitude and for people that are going through tough times. That's very helpful because we tend to focus only on the difficulties and this is not to say you you you deny them or your your them but to see that they are died by side with the good stuff. Yeah that did help me. Not as you know that. I am a an aggressive non bright cider. I a big whiteboard over my fireplace. And i just put down all the tiny little things like People who came to visit Food that was dropped off the warmth of people's hands like just all the little tiny things that felt like little bread crumbs. Then i could follow to feeling loved and they were and you were you were loved and you are loved. It is one way that god has of reaching out to you. Yeah yeah and that's i think you know it's funny. When people hear this they might think. Oh it's just like a. It's just like your papering over your difficulties or your cancer diagnosis or treatment. No i mean it's side-by-side pain is still there but as well as the other stuff i think the difficulty is that when we're in these moments and it's natural chairman we we. We don't focus at all on on the the blessings speaking of using profanity. During prayer i was talking to my spiritual. And i said i was so angry god last night but i said how about some bleeping help and my director said. That's a good prayer. I said okay and he said. But this i thought this was so helpfully said but are you being totally honest with god. And what do you mean. I i was just spouting off god and telling god how angry i was. Of course i was being honest and he said well okay. That's one part of your life. Are you sharing with god. The other part of the other parts of your life. I said what do you mean and he said. Well you're gonna present your life to god and you presented in its totality. Not just the stuff. You're annoyed by if that's the only focus of your president and in a sense it's actually not being honest with god. So so you're saying the breadcrumbs in the stuff when your whiteboard that if you were to ignore that and to say oh god. My life is only about this. You're kind of being in a sense old. You're only in god part of the picture. Yeah so that was really helpful for me you know to be honest but also in the totality of your life. I'm just thinking of. I mean the moments when i'm in the greatest pain or sadness or despair I-in part of why stop noticing is just because every detail is too awful right like you get this like your your brain's on a loop frequently if it's racist and tries to shut down. Sometimes you shut down your own body. Because you don't want that information from your body your you tried talking to people and that relationship was painful or this person socked et cetera. Not thinking of anyone in particular. I mean moments that were really just carried me through the worst was when i could somehow open myself. Back up to noticing the kinds of things you're describing like Like one of my best friends during that first year of cancer ended up being my nurse meg. Who just because. I was able you know where i'm sitting there for hours and hours and hours. She happens to look like a tiny elfin princess then. Suddenly my life isn't just cancer. It's like oh my gosh. What is going on with meg. And and that's an against the thing is that's just as real as the cancer was mean. Meg was just israel's the cancer was and see those things side by side and it doesn't make things go away but in not notice her you know in a sense is is to not notice reality right and i think you know there are there forces that pull us away from god enforces the towards god and i think the forces the polls towards got those forces that really gives us hope this is. This is jesuit spirituality. You know the voice of god is the voice of hope and uplift and encouragement and the voice of now the want the voice of the one that pulls us away from god is the voice of despair and hopelessness and despair and hopelessness. Make us ignore the stuff. That's good life is. It's difficult right but if it's only about the complaining and only focus on the negative it's kind of. It's kind of false. And which could include. It's never going to get better. Nobody cares about you. You're alone in your problem. Yeah it will not nothing can ever change. It's funny the the distinction and trying to make when you're saying this is between the modern therapeutic culture's obsession with mindset and the the distinction. You're making here with prayer as kind of like widened band wet for allowing the truth of a situation to pour in because one version of it is like i think the modern therapeutic version is like we have to control your thoughts and you control in a certain way and prayer as just another way that you can channel it in a certain direction. I know. that's not what you're saying. But i know that's what a lot of people imagine as prayer mindset in the sense of you mean keep a positive attitude or your mind sense in the sense of kind of cognitive behavior therapy. Were you feel what you tell yourself. Is that the idea. I guess a bit of both i. I would imagine that. A lot of people i mean right. Since the late nineteenth century american culture has been obsessed with the ideas that are they idea that our thoughts determine us and that a major war of being human is in directing the work of your mind and i am a fan of cognitive behavioral therapy which attacks sort of irrational thinking and thinking. That's wrong so for example. But i think rare actually fits into that because cognitive behavior therapy and mindfulness is a look at reality right so in other words so to say things can never change something like that things will never get better. Okay first of all. That's irrational and things can change. Or i'm the only one that this happens to or i'm always getting sick or though to challenge these things i think is actually helpful and healthy but part of prayer is inviting you into that space which enables you to do that. Because if you're if you're being totally honest with god and if you're looking at things that you're grateful for you will realize that you're not the worst of person in the world or in the universe because you do see that whiteboard right you know look from a religious point of view The and we're talking during holy week. So it's very good thing to talk about the disciples on good friday and holy saturday. We're locked behind closed doors. Which is such a great image. They because they're terrified and you know they had a reason to be terrified. Their leader was just crucified. And the romans were probably looking for them to or so. They feared but they thought nothing can come from this. Nothing good everything is over. Nothing will get better. Nothing can change. And that's not the message of easter. The message of easter is nothing is impossible with god I like that so much. I like how it doesn't deny the awful reality but still ask us to maybe like put a little asterix beside it that maybe something beautiful can still happen because got us involved. I find it really hard to pray about my stuff. I think maybe also just because. I'm a human bulldozer. I find it very hard to pause. But lately i find it very easy to just love. Blessing people lying. Like how can i infuse this person with the sense that god is with them in their work in their break up with their partner in their inbox in they're having to postpone a funeral is is is praying for people like that is like blessing them. It's attention as not only asking god to help them. But it's allowing god to ask you to help them right so keep praying for someone. Who's lonely lonely lonely. And you never call them or text them. Then you're praying about a friend who is and you feel sad. Yeah you say or whereas they're coming from was that not god's sadness for that person can you see that as an invitation or if you if you if you're in your praying and you have a desire to help them. I wish i could that desire coming from that desires coming from god so this is what i mean by listening to god listening for god listening to those emotions insights memories feelings desires words and phrases images that come up and taking it seriously that this is. This may be god communicating with you. Because again how else would effect god's desires in the world for that person other than working through you. Lightning bolts may be or sudden acts of no fine. I hear you. I'll do it. That's the difference between again with the relationship model. Let's say you. And i are best friends can to your best friends of course and says okay. Who's your best friend kate. Okay we'll you. Would you do with their parties. And we're we're we work in the same place. And i see her all the time. We'll do you ever spend any one on one time with her. No why not. Because i see all the time we're at work. You know we work together nine to five. I see your parties. You he live in the house together. Whatever but you ever spend any givers sit down and say lucky now we're going to have some undivided attention. No and that's what people do with god and it's not here's the point. It's not to say that. And i'm using the sort of the the crowd time in the daily time has sort of our regular lies one. You know you the sun beats down on you or you noticed something. It's not to say that. God is not active in those other times. You're walking around life but it is to say that if you want to deepen your relationship with god you do need that intentional time. You just do the same way. I would need it with you. Yeah which we will. Obviously once we're done recording set aside a lot of intentional best friends forever maker omaker bracelets. This was a complete joy. I am so glad that two best friends we got to me. That's right. I can't even say listen. It's been great to be great to be on the show and Yeah we can do it again raw. Trust acceptance sometimes. I just don't know how to get there. But i can see it. The desire to see the world as it is to believe. Somehow that i'm not alone there and to accept that most of what happens in my life is not under my control regardless of how entirely benevolently i would run the universe if asked so if you like me. Don't always know how to move through this strange season when there is hope for someday but someday is not now. Here's a blessing for when you might not know how to pray or what you blessed are you in this terrible wonderful now fumbling around for the right words you need so much and it seems impossible to say at all. Blessed are you. For whom prayer feels hopeless disappointing futile. Less it are you in your radical honesty in the ways you speak of your grief. The long sleepless nights in an empty bed of the physical pain you feel the joints that don't work like they used to your brain fog or chronic migraines who speak of your loneliness. The empty home are nast or womb. Blessed are you have the audacity to ask for the miracles you need the healing or new friend or redeemed family blessed. Are you as you learn to trust. Trust a god who. Here's who listens. Who hasn't left your side. Who preys on your behalf. Interpreting those deep groans. You can't quite put into syllables or sounds. Blessed are you as you settle into acceptance and blessed are we who live here in the someday but don now. I know that not everyone who listens to this is religious and i have to say how grateful i am that you stick with me and that we can have this mighty little community of compassion. If you wouldn't mind heading over to apple podcasts to leave a review. I'd love to hear more about why you listen. And what topics guests you'd like to hear from you our gift and i don't take you for granted. Thank you always. Today's episode was made possible by our partners. Lillian dow meant the duke endowment and duke divinity school who are faith in media project we are so grateful for their generosity and investment in what we do. And of course my team. Jessica richie our executive producer. Harriet butman our associate producer. Keith weston are sound designer and the rest of the everything happens. Crew who make this project so much. Fun dan wells. Aj walton. Mary joe clancy. Jj dickinson lawn. Stewart kelly dunlap aaron lane jab. And sammy thank you. This is everything happens with me keep bowler.

cancer kate ted lasso america magazine wharton school of business carl reiner martin james martin thomas merton stephen colbert jim jesus university of pennsylvania tara walker catholic church jesus jesus trevor emini laurie
What role does government play in innovation?

Marketplace Tech with Molly Wood

05:43 min | 2 years ago

What role does government play in innovation?

"This. Marketplace podcast is brought to you by the university of Florida Warrington college of business transform your future with an MBA from one of America's top ten universities. Learn more at Warrington dot ufl dot EDU slash MBA. This marketplace podcast is brought to you by equities N a premier platform bringing private markets to the public get access to tech unicorns like Uber. Airbnb and more sign up for free today at equities N dot com slash tech. A look at the secret sauce of innovation and it's less glamorous cousin adaptation from American public media. This is marketplace tech. I'm Tracey Samuelson in for Molly would. If you're a government day, the Chinese government looking to spur more innovation in your country. How do you do that you can think of innovation as a ladder of sorts? It might start with imitation. And then progressed you adaptation like tweaking a foreign idea to develop it for a local market. Finally, hopefully, you reach invention, perhaps even big industry changing ones. But the steps needed to climb that ladder can be elusive murky, and there's only so much governments can do says Regina abroa- me a professor at the university of Pennsylvania's Wharton school of business. I talked to her about China's efforts at state-sponsored innovation. It's something country. Can't cause to happen. It has to happen at a much more micro level, which is gonna what's the form of business organization in your country. Is it a collaborative is it a hierarchical places their scope for collaboration? What's the the nature of your education system? Are you teaching children to be problem solvers or are you rewarding? What are you? Awarding them for are you rewarding them for getting the answer's right or you're rewarding them for seeing something that you did wrong. But you know, I think we've I think we're at a point now where anyone who thinks that it's just about plopping cluster together meaning to say and China has lots of these right? Let's let's have one university in the next. Let's put a little tech park and extra. Let's do this other thing and magic show happen. It doesn't always work then then last, but not least. And this is not a trivial point you need a legal system where intellectual property is protected, right? Which is a chief US complaint about operating in China Raina, right? But it's not just us firms Chinese firms themselves also want to make sure that their IP is protected. It's interesting because the communist party's main in China twenty twenty five planets received a lot of attention recently for its attempts to you know, pick and develop specific Chinese industries is that type of industrial policy successful in fostering innovation. I think it's successful in fostering market leadership. Perhaps even market domination of a given sector within the Chinese context. And also potentially allowing for firms to compete in a way that gives them an advantage in the global marketplace. So it's not necessarily the case that industrial policy equals innovation policy. Yeah. So this idea of like, creative add patient versus a truly innovative breakthrough. But at a patient, you know is innovation. I mean, you know, as at the end of the day, this sort of hacking and making it work is a kind of innovation right? And certainly if we look at Chinese companies and their ability to sort of really target mid range markets, and how successful they've been in that space. It has been because they've been able to sort of make that those those adaptations that are targeted to our particular customer. They're trying to sell to. So it's it's not that China made in twenty twenty five has not succeeded in many ways it has. But that in an insane China the leading innovator in the world today. I think that we have to be a little bit more cautious on that front. Regina balmy at the Wharton school of business. Professor Rami made an important distinction. She said this isn't about the capacity of the Chinese people to be innovative. It's about the context and system they have to innovate within. Now for some related links. Professor brownie wrote an article called why China can't innovate in the Harvard. Business review back in two thousand fourteen much of that still applies today this China Morning Post had a couple of recent articles on China's intellectual property articles how they could be strengthened to meet US demands in the ongoing trade war and foster innovation the number of intellectual property rights cases in China increased more than forty percent last year and finally on the theme of creative thinking, there's this quantum magazine story from two thousand seventeen I just keep going back to it's about a retired statistician who solved a math proof others had struggled with for more than fifty years. He had the idea while brushing his teeth. I love stories of late bloomers. They give me hope. I'm Tracey Samuelson. And that's marketplace tech. This is a PM. You trust marketplace to cover more than business news. You rely on us to connect the dots between complex economic issues. And why they matter to you to keep public service journalism going, strong, please go to marketplace dot org today and become a marketplace investor with a donation in any amount, we appreciate your support. This. Marketplace podcast is brought to you by Kronos, look into any great business. Whether it's a manufacturer or a hotel a store school or hospital look into each and every one of them and you'll find the same thing. Great people at Cronos believe that great businesses are powered by great people. And with Kronos workforce solutions, it'll help you find them keep them and engage them. Learn more at kronoScom. Kronos, workforce innovation that works.

China China Tracey Samuelson Wharton school of business Kronos university of Florida Warringt US Airbnb China Raina Chinese government China America Regina abroa Professor Rami professor Cronos Molly communist party Professor brownie university of Pennsylvania
How To Make Exercise A Habit That Sticks

Exercise: Learn To Love (Or At Least Like) It

16:50 min | 2 years ago

How To Make Exercise A Habit That Sticks

"You are committed to exercise dusted off the gym shoes. You are going to bridge that divide between thinking about it and actually doing it regularly. Oops, but that was Monday and Tuesday. Ooh. Wednesday slipping by and now, it's Friday. What is it gonna take to build that habit? Is that old saying two weeks or three weeks to make a habit is that actually true does the research bear that out and ten seconds to break? It. This is NPR life kit for exercise in this episode building an exercise habit that really sticks making it a regular part of your life. Whether that's a couple times a week or every day. We've got six tips backed up by science, including how binging on your favorite Netflix show. Just might help you exercise more often. Really, I promise there's research on this coming up in a minute. Support for NPR and the following message. Come from Lincoln learning, which offers over thirteen thousand online courses to help you achieve your goals. You can take a course like managing stress and learn from experts about the importance of mindfulness listening thinking and communicating positively and much more Lincoln learning videos are short so you can fit a lesson in between workouts and apply. It that same day and life kit listeners get a month of learning free. Start your free trial at Lincoln, learning dot com slash NPR. I'm Alison Aubrey and I cover health and wellness here at NPR. Now, we all know that best intentions can fail. We're busy. We're tired. And one reason that people tell me it's hard to make that exercise habits stick they say, you know, I'm just not athletic. I don't fit in the gym. I was the child who took twenty minutes to walk around the track when we were doing the presidential fitness test. God the bane of every child. Through trying to run the ropes cramping and nobody like nobody is telling me like, no, it's totally normal to cram when he run that was Renita job Lonski. She was a longtime staffer here at NPR. And she and I used to talk in the hallway a lot about this problem that she felt she was up against I always feel better when I exercise, but it's like it's been hard for me to kind of break back into it for some reason just on a very emotional level. So I found a great person for Renita to meet. And I think she could be good for all of us. Hi there. Oh, hello. Nice to meet you. This is Katie milkman. She's a professor at the Wharton school of business. Now, Katy you kind of blend psychology and deacon Nomex to figure out the best ways to nudge, people to better habits is that right? It could not have said it better myself Katie helped me so let's get to it. Katie's got six strategies to help us turn that intention into reality. And tip number one. You have got to give this a month. That's about what it. Takes to build a sticky habit for years. I've heard that it takes what is that? Is that old saying two weeks or three weeks to make a habit is that actually true does the research bear that out and ten seconds to break? It. You got a great question. I always get asked that question. Like, oh, how long does it take? Is it like five days is it fifty days is it twenty five days. The one thing we do know about habits is about a month is enough. So we don't know maybe maybe through what did you find to maybe fifty days would be way better? But we know a month of intense activity, repeating exercise over the course of a month is a is actually enough to kick start habits that long a good long while after that. In fact, I did a a large randomized controlled trial where we pay people to exercise for twenty eight days and saw benefits as much as forty weeks later. The key to habits is repetition. And if you can get that repetition going while you have high motivation, you're much more likely to have a behavior change that lasts. Now, let's talk about a tip that will actually get you moving day in and day out. It's something that Katy calls temptation bundling. And this is tip number to think about a television show that you love watching. But wouldn't always admit to other people. I guess I'm gonna say that loud keeping up with the Kardashians. Of course. And I really really want to watch the crowd. I have not seen any of it. And everyone around me because we work at NPR has talked about I'm with you. I love it. I can't have any the new season starts. Yeah. So you you had me at TV. Right. Well, my research has shown that you could actually combine watching trashy TV or highbrow TV as long as you love it like the crown with exercise, and it may actually help you get to the gym much more often. And we've shown that it can increase the rate at which people exercise, if they combine a real pleasure that they. Forward to with their workouts? So you're not allowed to watch the crown unless you're at the gym that's the idea, and as a result, you're gonna start craving trips to the gym to see the next episode, and you won't feel any guilt about spending time watching TV because you'll be working out here that you'll be craving it Renita. Yes, I've just got to make sure that my husband doesn't want to watch this to this is very important thing about temptation bundling. Yeah. You don't wanna choose the wrong TV show, and then have marital strife. All right next. Takeaway, let's talk about goal setting. This is tip. Number three. You want to set goals that motivate you, but don't traff you. So is your goal to work out twice a week to run a marathon to go to classes at the gym. Or maybe just a power walk? Whatever it is. Here's how Katie says to game it out. It's super important when you set goals to set goals that push you a little bit. So you don't want to just say, oh, go to the gym once a month. That's I can tell. Into that one got good. Okay. Yeah. So that's a bad goal. You wanna push yourself? You also don't want to set a crazy abstract goal. Like one hundred times this year. It needs to be more concrete think about what are you gonna do in the next week? What sounds a little bit tough, but she visible, and that's where you set your goal. And then another important thing is to give yourself a little bit of leeway for messing up. So there's this really cool research that I think we can all relate to on what's called the what the hell effect. So the what the hell effect says that if we fail to hit our goals, we can throw in the towel and go crazy. For instance, say you have a calorie goal today, and you eat a little bit more than you're supposed to for dinner. You say what the hell, and then you eat cheesecake, I have never. Yesterday. Yes. So that's the risk of goals if they're tough. And then you you don't make it you can throw in the towel and actually be worse off. So how do you balance these two things? Well, there's this really cool research that's come out of Warton and UCLA showing that it's key to give yourself a free pass every once in a while. So if you set the tough goal like I'm gonna try to go to the gym five days this week. It's going to be a stretch. But I'm going to try really hard for it. Just remind yourself. Do you have a couple free passes? If you have a late night at work, you can take a mulligan. And it's okay. You don't want to give yourself five free passes. But maybe two you're actually going to do better with the tougher goal. But the allowance for failure those mulligans those free passes in terms of efficacy, which is great. I mean, I certainly is something that I actually have to take a little more seriously and stop what the Helling all over the place because my tongue other people like be good to yourself. I need to actually follow that advice. You know, this is one that really hits home for me. I definitely took a free pass this week. And I think about it this way almost like a mental trick you're more likely to actually get that workout in. If you have an Embiid goal, but you've got to have these built in free passes being too strict about your workout goal can work against you. You can sabotage yourself. And when that happens, I want you to keep this in mind, there's a whole body of research to suggest that all you really need to keep your heart. Healthy is exercise about twenty to twenty five minutes of day of moderate activity. Now, obviously more is better. But twenty to twenty five minutes is all you need, and you can kind of weave it into your day. You can take the stairs. When you're at work. You can buy your bike to work. You can huff it when you're walking to the train all these ways to sneak in exercise. Now moving on to tip number four. If you want to build a workout routine flexibility may just be your friend. We did a large randomized controlled trial where we tested whether or not it was more effective to encourage people to exercise daily at the same time every day or to build a more flexible routine where they sometimes exercised in the mornings sometimes in the afternoon. And we were pretty sure when we started this that what you should do to build a routine all the research said was same time every day rigorously husband about that. You've got Jimmy. Yeah. Yeah. It's not what we found. We actually found that it was more effective if people mixed it up. Really? Wow. I know it's so surprising. We dug into the data and said what's going on? We'll the people who worked out at the same time every day. They did actually form a more lasting habit around exercising at that time. But here's the catch. That was the only time they ever worked out if they missed that sounds like your life is busy Mr. nine AM slot. Well, what the hell I'm not going to the gym today. I love that. Yeah. He actually is really really good to hear because it's like, oh, well, you didn't get up at five AM. I guess he blew that rather than actually allowing exercise to come in different ways. And maybe not in a totally traditional form. You know, I've done a lot of reporting on social contagion. There's a whole bunch of research to show that our behaviors really can't be viral. If you're a smoker, you're more likely to be surrounded by smokers. If you're happy that happiness can spread from person to person even people on the elder edges of your social circle are likely to be influenced by your emotions, it's kind of like, we're all birds of fuck. So this is your next tactic tip. Number five, make exercise social there's lots of research showing that we look to the crowd for cues about what we should be doing. So one of my favorite studies shows that actually finding out how your energy consumption compares to that of your neighbors who live in similar homes is an incredibly motivating way to get people to cut their energy consumption. And you could imagine using the very same principle to motivate more exercise. If you start making it public. How you compare to your neighbors or your co workers all of a sudden, there's this impetus that's greater to get to the gym on Instagram. So many people have. Tracking their workouts, and that kind of thing, and I've seen people I know who have added dumbbells in are sort of recording their workouts. And it's a reminder to me like, oh, you know, it actually I have dumbbells and my basement closet. Maybe our behaviors really do spread especially when they're highly visible. And if you're not into social media, just do it the old fashioned way. So if you're supposed to be your friend at the gym, you're a lot less likely to renagade, then if you're just supposed to go for yourself if you make it hard to back out on your scheduled workout, you're more likely to show up. Okay. Last tip put some money on the line. You know, I've seen a lot of research that suggests that if people pay you to exercise it can be a really effective strategy. But let's get real who gets paid to exercise. Not a lot of people. If you can't find someone willing to pay you you can actually pay your future self. So there are these strategies you can use called commitment devices. That's the nerd term for basically betting your future self to do good things. There's a website that I like a lot called stick dot com. S C K K where you can go and put money on the line that you'll forfeit if you fail to achieve a goal like visiting the gym three days a week. But here's the catch. Not only you out the cash it actually goes to something or somebody. You don't like so say, you're not a big fan of your brother-in-law Pete. Well, peak just took your money. You don't want that? Right. And the important thing is that it doesn't have to be a lot of money either. I mean. Be five bucks or bet your friend that if you don't meet your goal, you'll do their laundry the reason this tip works is that we're very loss averse, we hate giving up something we've already earned. Yes. Exactly. So you're referencing research that one Dan Economou n- the Nobel prize in two thousand and two one of the things that he an e verse key proved is that we find losses about twice as motivating as gains of equal size. And so if we can motivate people with sticks rather than carrots, it can actually be more effective. Okay. So let's review the key takeaways. You've got this in the next thirty days. You can start a new habit in just under a month. You can cement workout routine and one way to help you get there temptation bundling. So the key here is to remember to bundle watching TV that you crave with exercise. So you'll start craving your workouts. I love that. Then we need to set realistic goals. Absolutely. It's critical to set goals push you a little bit. But that are also within reach the other one you mentioned the mulligan effect or sort of just giving a free pass. Is that right? Yeah. You got to be able to let yourself off the hook every once in a while. So you won't feel terrible and throw in the towel after a goof, and then really like the social making it fun part of it too. And then incentivizing it maybe bring in some kind of financial reward or loss you can put money on the line that you'll forfeit if you fail to achieve your exercise goals. And that's highly motivating you do that for as little as a month that can create a lasting habit. All right. Katie Renita about tomorrow morning. Seven AM meet on my block. I have got some flexibility. I'm thinking about. Maybe stream the crown while we look. Yeah. I'll text you and let you know. If you like what you hear make sure to check out our next episode. We work out with supreme court Justice, Ruth, Bader Ginsburg, personal trainer who gives us a full body, twenty two minute workout, check out our other life kit podcast at NPR dot org slash life kit. And while you're there subscribe to our newsletter. So you don't miss anything. We've got more podcast coming every month on all sorts of topics and is always here's a completely random tip. This time from NPR science editor Mollica Greb, if your plastic shower curtain has mildew on it don't throw it in the trash drop it into the tub full of hot water and put in a Cup of bleach and let it sit overnight and all the medieval go away the next day. And then you could just hang it back up and have a clean hurting. I am definitely going to try that. And if you've got a good tip or one a suggested topic Email us that life kit at NPR dot org. I'm Ellison Aubrey. Thanks for listening. Support for NPR and the following message. Come from Lincoln learning, which offers more than thirteen thousand online courses to help you achieve your goals. It's short video tutorials, cover business tech n creative skills. Employers. Look for at every level all taught by experts and new courses are added every week. Plus linked in learning is personalized recommending courses based on your interests and life kid listeners. Get a month of learning free. Start your free trial at Lincoln learning dot com slash NPR, Heo Sam Sanders, I host an NPR show called it's in every Friday on the show. I talk out the week of news because sometimes the best way to process everything going on right now is through good conversation. Download the show, and we'll process everything together.

NPR Lincoln Renita Katie Lincoln Netflix Alison Aubrey Katie milkman Wharton school of business Katy Katie Renita professor Ellison Aubrey Nobel prize Heo Sam Sanders UCLA Jimmy Mollica Greb