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2062: Tech that will set your business on FIRE with Claire Alexander of Capterra!
Who's ready to rock fire nation J L D here? And we have an audio Nassar class that will set your pants and hair on fire. And that is tech that will set your business on fire in two thousand nineteen and to talk about this. I am bringing in Claire Anderson. She graduated from Harvard college, and then the Stanford graduate school of business and began her career at being in company before joining capterra as their new general manager, and she's gonna join us today to talk about all of those things that are going to help you with your business in two thousand nineteen when it comes to tech, so many important things you're going to learn today. So stick around we're gonna kick right in when we get back from thinking, our sponsor wish because China spotlight on your top candidates when you posted job. Great news ZipRecruiter will do just that ZipRecruiter identifies. The right people and actively invite them to apply. Your job then as advocation come in. They analyze each one and spotlight the top candidates to save you time and make sure you never miss a great match and right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right free. Just go to ZipRecruiter dot com slash fire. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash fire. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Claire say what's up to fire nation and share something? Interesting about yourself that most people don't know what's up our nation. I think the most interesting thing, I could share with you that most people don't know. I try and keep it very close a secret. But now it will not be such a such a close one is I really like myself British costume dramas. And so. Costume, and it's involves British anything. Then I'm probably watching what's maybe one recommendation in that genre. That maybe our listeners like we've all watched downton abbey. What like what's one that? Maybe we have a wash the youth. Think could really be awesome rate question pulled art is one that is certainly interesting, although I recommend the book over the actual video series another one again another book that I love more than video series. But totally worth watching his outlander out Lander. Awesome. Well, I'm already watching Paul dark. So outlander is going to be in the queue, but shifting more towards the points of our chat today. Clear. What exactly is capterra like what is capterra do as a business? Sure, we eat Tara help people and specifically small businesses find the right software for them hunting and pecking around the web to figure out what peo- system, you should be using as painful, experience and. Try and make it a little less painful by gathering together, all of the potential software options out there for that particular solution that by the way in about seven hundred fifty other types of solutions, everything from accounting software to yoga studio software, and we basically line up all the potential players that you might wanna consider give you Paris, tools and filters to help you get to viable contenders. Allow you to connect easily with those vendors so basically try and take a little bit of the stress out of finding software. This is something we actually talk a lot about on entrepreneurs on fire clear is how important our time our energy our band with entrepreneurs. And there's such a sunk cost going in. When you go down the road with the wrong software with the wrong choice amount of what it might be an apple whatever using four your business because you're getting your team trained up doing this doing that? And then couple months down the road. You're like man, this doesn't do actually what I wanted to do. But something like. Capterra fire nation. I mean, you can read the reviews you look at the ratings. You can stop that before it even starts because you have the opportunity to see exactly what's going on, you know, great analogy than I would use right now. 'cause I just got back from a sixty day European trip. We used Airbnb for everything and tell you how many times those reviews on Airbnb saved our lives like so much street noise at night, or like, the shower doesn't work or whatever it might be. We would have had a horrible experience. But because the reviews choose the right place so fire nation having these opportunities for people that have used these pieces of software to build a good place like capterra and really make the right choice for your business. The first time not the fourth or fifth time is so critical to you moving in the right direction. But clear you went to Harvard college and the Stanford graduate school of business. I mean, you began your career with Bain and company a lot of options because of that resume because of that the experience you'd build up over the years. Why did you join capterra? What made you make that leap? Great. Question for me. It's all about culture, I have had the pleasure and the privilege of working across ride different industries and right before capterra in a series of VC back startups. I'm the last one sold oracle. And I decided I didn't wanna stay at oracle in part because of the travel, but in part because sort of some of the cultural values in the way, the oracle machine. Works weren't totally aligned with mine. And and I found that capterra really had sort of the organizational orientational world that I think is really important are for core. Values are to seek the good to do. Great work to be ridiculously helpful and to keep on getting better and your tune for me here was to sort of take these really lived values inside of the organization and actually help them manifest more. Obviously in the products that. We put out for our buyer, and because it's a two sided business, right? We have folks who are coming in looking for software and the way we make our money is not I charging the buyers. It's rather buy providing leads vendors so passing along or neighbouring buyers who believe that this could be the right fit for them to connect easily with vendors. We get paid on that cost or click faces and so helping these vendors many of whom are small businesses themselves. Find their buyers and flourish and grow is really exciting to me and one of the things that I love the most about what we're doing. Now is really. You know, this was a strapped organization the founder sold the Gartner and twenty fifteen I took over from him as Mike ordinal. He's a fabulous guy. And and business organization itself is actually very much like a startup even though we're in this big company now, and we're not a small business anymore, but our systems in our processes the way decisions get made how choose to focus. Our time are all sort of new things that we need to scale. And so that's been really really fun for me. There are three words that you said that to me are so important for you fire nation listening right now to really take away be ridiculously helpful. If you are doing that if you are being ridiculously helpful to your clients to your customers, just to the general public. You're gonna win at some level if you are being ridiculously helpful. You are going to win that value that you're providing value that you're adding to the world is gone. To pay massive dividends. So I love those three words how you put it be ridiculously helpful in real quick fire nation because I know we're seeing like capterra. Capterra. Capterra just so you can mentally visualize this as you're running driving the car. It's capterra C A P T E R R A capterra in Claire is going to be dropping some value bombs on this audio masterclass, which we have decided to call tech that will set your business on fire in two thousand nineteen because fire nation choosing the wrong tech will burn your business to the ground a bad way. And choosing the right tack will set your business on fire in a great way. And that's exactly what capterra will help. You. Do choose the right tech to set your business on fire so clear, give us just a quick overview of what this massacre is going to be. We have some great bullet points interview floor. We're gonna go through is going to be awesome. But just give a couple teasers for fire. Nation. Absolutely. We are going to cover a bunch of different things. Why did you marketing is so important to acquiring new customers why budgeting for data security technology is really important for your business? No matter what size business you have. We're gonna talk about how SNB's should be using cloud computing to bring big power to the business. And also why finance accounting software is a must have for any business looking to grow. And some of these things you're hearing fire nation. You might be like man, I'm not sure if that sounds super interesting, but I can tell you one thing it is super important in Clarin myself are gonna make it super industries. So definitely stick around for all of that. Unless she's diving clear to the first thing to really sink our teeth into which is why is digital marketing crucial for anybody out there looking to acquire new customers. Absolutely. Well, I think you know, the answer that question really lies in us just being humans and taking a look at the way we live. Our lives today, which for me involves last night. I was on with my husband and son. And there were four screens going. I was on computer. My son was on the ipad. My husband was on his computer. We had the TV going. You know, my mom called. And there was a cell phone in the mix that made five I it's we are a technology Mabel issues, especially here in the west and said, oh, if you're not digital if you don't have some form of digital presence and are trying to connect with your customers through digital channels than it's going to be really really hard to ever grow. I know that fire nation is all about growth and success is entrepreneurs, and you can have really small localized success through word of mouth, but digital is like the, you know on fire version of art of mouth. And so you don't have you're not there. You know, they won't hear you. They won't see you. They won't find you. And you're missing. Opportunity to extend the personal relationships across Hyman space and geography so clear I'm gonna put you on the spot here for a second. But I really feel like you're good thinking on your feet. So we're just gonna go for it. Because I know what my audience really can resonate in connect with our actual example. So you recognize how people are using capterra. I'm sure you have some great case studies and testimonials glor- for people actually utilizing the services. He maybe just talk about one that you really feel like applies to this point that we're talking about on how digital Markey's crucial for acquiring new customers. How has somebody maybe in the past utilized capterra to make sure that they're maximizing this specific use shore? I can give you an example of a business here in Washington, DC, female owned business. She her organization puts on some pretty important events in the city, and she uses capterra a lot. I met her through a, you know, Washington business journal event that we were both attending. And she said, oh, yeah. I know capture all the time. And I said, oh, that's fabulous. Like, I would love to know more tell me more, and thanks as you talked about at the beginning time is the most important asset that we have how choose to use our time in focus, our time matters a lot, and as you know, as she was starting her small business, which is now grown considerably. I she she really need to figure out like, okay. How do I get the word out that I do vents? And then how to once I've done, you know, someone's event, how do I help them be my embassador 's in the market and also how do I keep in touch with them? And so, you know, the ability to find software that lets you first and foremost, let's say connect with people you already know. In a systematic way is really important. So if you're looking for asthma relationship management software, a need a platform that allows me to understand, you know, how to nurture relationships that I've started in person over Email going to capterra and searching for relationship management or Email software and taking a look at the different options, and knowing that and using using some filters to say, you know, I only have five people who need to access this particular piece of software. I don't have fifty people. So let me just look at the stuff that's of four people in that range, and then going in and actually being able to side-by-side Harrison to say, you know, what features is a CRM have how many of those features. Do I think are actually actually important for me versus nice to have. And therefore, you know, what my spending fresh hold. What's the best value for money? You can take a look at lists. That say, here's you know. What people are using generally, myspace when is most popular or here's what's most user friendly. 'cause some people have been burned by other software that is not user friendly takes way too on to figure out how to use them doesn't over what its promises while here. We've kind of short listed some options for you. But you can also go into each one of the oft wear sort of candidates that you have in your list and look at all of the reviews that we have on them. And I would really encourage people. I'm sure everyone understands this from living in in in in a world with Amazon, but there's kind of three things I like to share about reviews. One is Erin credibly important as you said, you know, Airbnb be reviews are Najib. You may have also saved many times, especially for that street noise issue. But but also, you know, going in and looking at the reviews and kind of looking at software of us knowing that. You know, you have to take reviews with a grain of salt. We do our very best to make sure that every review that's on our site is actually written by a human person who has who who background has a reason for them to be using that software. So that we have as high quality reviews as we can possibly have because we know on Amazon, for example, there are whole industries that Tryon churn out fake reviews and things, and that's just not not not good from my point of view. So because we will be ridiculously helpful. We actually invested a ton of resources in really spinning up reviews offering that that we believe hold as much water as humanly possible to haul old in terms of, you know, good to drink good for you real person reviews that have actually used the product or experience the product and tribute something so a little bit different. Than Airbnb where you know, you know, that that human is state in the room when you don't have that kind of experience more difficult, but we do our best. On. So that's first thing is reviews are incredibly important. The second thing is make sure that their quality reviews on the third thing is look at look for recent reviews, because you know, we have, you know, many uses of software on our site that have thousands of reviews, but really looking at reviews that much like if you're on a trip advisor, you can say like is this couple friendlier is Kip friendlier is good for pets looking at views where people are concerned about the things consorted by sprint noise. You know, if the equivalent for that CRM is I want to know that the that the template editor is easy to use. And I don't need to have holding a coding background in order to actually get an Email formatted, the mats that particular criteria is something you should be looking for in reviews on book for recent reviews because the reality is these software companies are evolving their products. Actually, the cloud based ones very quickly. And so things that are said reviews a year or two years ago may not be true. Now, the look for the recent reviews because those are going to give you the best handle on what things, you know. Peter functionality can offer you let me add one little hack that I found incredibly helpful fire nation this works on Amazon and Airbnb, and I'm sure some level on capterra's. Well, focus on the four and three star reviews because the reality is this. You're always going to have people just raving about something the five stars. Or this is going to be all bowling about a so we get those are all amazing reviews and the once there's just haters, and there's always going to be haters, but those foreign three star reviews. I mean, these people have really said, you know, what this isn't an amazingly perfect experience. But it's not bad either. And they leave very thoughtful, very helpful reviews in I've chosen many places because of their foreign three reviews because they bring up some great points. But you know, they don't apply to me. Like, there might be one for an Airbnb example of, you know, hey. This is in the downtown district end, you know, it's not close to any public transportation. Well, I mean, not care. There's close oppo transportation. I get why they might have deducted a star. But they really take the time to leave thoughtful through review on that level, the foreign the three-star. So that's helped me a lot just a little bit of a hack and clear. One thing that I know for a fact after interviewing over two thousand successful entrepreneurs and talking to fire nation on a day-to-day basis via Email and social media is going to be honest, data security technology, it's not super high on most entrepreneurs priority list, but maybe it should be. So let's talk to you about why budgeting for data security could really be important in critical for entrepreneurs. Yeah. It's a really important question. One that popping up in the news more and more for the big guys like Facebook, or the, you know or the government, but anything well, that's nice for them. But I doubt I'm going to have Russian hackers. You know coming into retail business, right? Reality is is that. Web is a glorious place. It's also a dark place, and what we've found so first of all, and this was a staggering fact from our research for me was a research shows that nearly half of some bees are buzzing data security technology, which really surprised me because the, you know, seven hundred gainer so small businesses that we interviewed or ranged from ridge from sheri- companies retail, you, you know, sort of Birtles that you wouldn't necessarily think are thinking about this. It's like, they weren't all software companies themselves, and the reason why it's so important is because even though it might not be trying to mess with political system. There are people who just think it's unto do this. And they an attack at random they've written machine algorithms and the algorithms go to town, and what we know is that it can cost us be used. Between. Let's call it about eighty thousand dollars up to a hundred and fifty thousand dollars for each incident, and even more interesting and scary fact, is that sixty percent of the SMB's that that have actually go out of business within six months of breach. And that's not from that's not even from our research derise ins research face. And so. You know, my sister's entrepreneur, actually, she has a great catering business in a restaurant in Brooklyn. And if you let me tell you what it is. I will be happy to do. So sure go form she's got a great restaurant. The catering businesses called little pheasant and the restaurant at four four five avenue in Brooklyn, and you can go read the reviews on yelp and on eater. And and see for yourself whether or not it's a place you'd wanna go. But you know, I'm completely biased. And I think it's fabulous husband started up last member they opened so they're almost your whole. And you know, my sister will not be totally delighted I'm sharing this with the entire fire nation. But, but but I think everybody who's listening to this can probably empathize. You know, she she's stressed out. It's it is. It is just the most exciting inducing experience. You can do to both follow your dream and also live hand to mouth as you try and get this thing off the floor. And so I think they're very good. Thence is fantastic. Chef and it's not his first rodeo with the restaurant. So that's some experience at is super creative my sister and a phenomenal business person. She's better excel than I am. But, but it's tough, and you don't anticipate things like your water oiler breaking or that the people in the lot next door going start building in new condo building. And that's gonna recast on your outdoor garden, or which, you know, you need to have to have the number of tables in order to hit the profit numbers you need to stay alive. And so when you know an a two thousand or five thousand dollar incident is huge for them eight thousand dollar incident would literally put them out on a business. And so that's why I think security is important because if anybody gets into your digital operations and just screws with your financial, you know, directly or indirectly, it's gonna be massive times. Zack. And really, you know, depending on what state of business your end just sensually a death knell for the business. Let me jump in here. Clear Nasc, you what would you give as a couple of the first steps, and our listeners should take to maybe even just I aren't learning about which down security technology might be ready for their business. Yeah. It's great. So the first thing I would do is actually just Google things. Like that. Right. Just Google BOS questions, and you know, follow up with you John to to give a couple of good articles. I've found on that after this. Yeah, we'll put in the Shona spinach Google around and just get millier, especially you know, sort of different industry verticals have different conserve earn. So I think just orienting to kind of what is the state of data security in your industry is Ben for step two. Do that organization. And then the the second thing is to come to catch there. We have a whole bunch of articles on research on data security, and why it matters and how you should start thinking about it for your business. But one of the easiest things I can recommend is just know who's got access to your systems, and what level of access they have something that, you know, everybody should understand is it, you know, if you already have finance accounting software who has access to that. How many people know the password if you've got a PO S system. Who's able to actually Mabel refunds or discounts? And to what degree command will knows versus not like getting really clear on who's got access to systems that could that that could breach any form of data are is really important and make sure you have good guidelines policies points of view that our wealth and ease. Welcome unicating easily. Understood by staff, that's of basic point number one. And number two in terms of okay. Wanna take the next step? Let's say you've got an e com parse business, and you are worried about getting hit by bought and suddenly, you know, your credit card processing these go through the roof or something like this. Adding capture to your log out pages or your log in pages, but putting captures or when I say, log at checkout asses on your on your form fill pages are really somewhat annoying for people, but you'll see more and more companies doing that over time because they really wanna make sure it's not a bought accessing their system. Aman AMAN, actually, you know, getting more sophisticated if you've got a business, and you need to make sure that a lot of bots. Don't take your engineers time. I mean, this is a real life exam ample from from our company, we, you know, we got a great engineer the wakes up at two in the morning when alert happens because there's some some funky traffic pattern going on that could potentially be costing us business or or bringing down our our our system our operating system our network, and and so he has. To get up and deal with that. We've just been in the market or what I would call like a traffic shaping solutions to have an automatic monitoring of traffic patterns and allow us to learn really easily an kind of continuously learning way about what type of traffic, we should be expecting where they're anomaly, and so there are different companies for that. But again, one is at oriented yourself what declarations are your industry. The second one is make sure you have systems and processes and protocols and just sort of parody around who has access to data who has access what data wet level of access should have permissions. They should be following. And make sure you actually follow up to make sure that that's true three is. You know, if you're in a web business and credit card transactions. Definitely make sure that your capture is enabled in. Landing pages. And then the really big one is come to capture and figure out what kind of software help you with traffic shaping bought medication or whatever it is in your industry that particular problem, and then started talking to them about what they can offer. Obviously as you said in the earlier bit of of this podcast like Rebozo reviews like there's nothing like reviews to help you from keeping mistakes. Other people have made standing on the shoulders of Diane's because fire nation reality is there are a lot of people in businesses that are out there that are very similar to yours. You can go to a place like capterra. You can find those people who are like you who are running businesses lake yours. You can see what they're seeing. And see what they're using see why they're using one. They didn't like expo why they loved wires e that's so critical because we are all standing on the shoulders of giants ller from those who have come before you, you know. That's why keep saying all the time for five years. Now, we've been sharing our monthly income reports. Not just so we can show. You all the ways that we're succeeding. We learn. She always we're feeling making mistakes. So you don't make the same mistakes that we make. That's what a tool of capterra do for you as well in these different areas. And if you think fire nation clears drop in value bombs here, right? But we got some more coming as soon as we get back from thinking, our sponsor fire nation. I'm here with Ian, Siegal, the CEO of Zip Recruiter in Ian. I assume that you had a few hiring challenges of your own before you found ZipRecruiter. What incurs you to build ZipRecruiter to begin? With the decision to build ZipRecruiter stemmed from my own frustration with how time consuming and frustrating. Hiring process was I was working for startups where we were too small to have our own department. And so I was posting my own jobs to multiple job sites. Then finding my own way to get the candidates out of the sites. It was one of the things I looked forward to the least in executing my role ZipRecruiter to create. A one click simple solution where you push button and your job goes to every job site on the web. And then all the candidates come into one easy to review last and makes the hiring process so much simpler, and it makes it so much faster to find the right person fire nation, I empathize with how Ian used to feel can you because before ZipRecruiter get to go to multiple sites. Each own unique log at impasse recombination. The process was so disorganized being able to access all your job candidates in one place is a huge time saver having organized process is critical fire nation when you hire in his built in with ZipRecruiter. Ziprecruiter makes hiring simple with one click ZipRecruiter send your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there. Zip recruiter's powerful. Technology scans thousands of resumes. Find people with the right skills education. Inexperienced in actively invite him to apply to your job. It's no wonder Zip Recruiter is read a number one by employers in the US based on trust pilot. Ratings of hiring sites over a thousand reviews in right now fire nation, you can try Zip Recruiter for free. That's right free. Just go to this exclusive web address, Zip Recruiter dot com slash fire. That's Zip Recruiter dot com slash F. I R E ZipRecruiter dot com slash fire. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. So clear we're back, and I know, you know, a little bit about fire nation now. But most of our listeners were running small businesses. But the beautiful thing about today's world is that we can run our small businesses big businesses because of the tools, and the technology this out there so clear how can we use things like cloud computing to bring big power to our small business. This is really actually for everyone. There's two things in particular would highlight one as you know, if you're one running a web business. Everybody's familiar with AWS and Google cloud, and you know, Microsoft. As you're like, everybody's got all the big companies have their offerings. But it's so fabulous. Because you don't have to buy hardware, you can just stale upper scale down your needs. And it doesn't you don't have to be a big company to take advantage of these services. And you don't even have to be medium-sized or even a large small company can be a company of any size, depending on kind of computing power that you need you can kind of turn it on very easily and turning off it very easily. So you're not stuck with expensive hardware. That's not getting a lot of youth. So that's sort of the the straightforward answer. The the answer that applies to absolutely everybody is, of course, the shift to sort of software as service versus installed software so going from tiny life example of having to download and install a turbo tax, you know, in your personal life to be able to turbo tax online and come back to it from any computer at any point in. In the world is really a nice change. And that's because taxes moved to the cloud. Then they've got this great cloud offering. And so you can use it and similarly. There are you know, literally, tens of thousands of different types of softwares pretty much. Any software you need. It is cloud based on that allows for quicker time to upgrade. You don't have to reinstall things. You just click that, you know, upgrade button or whatever it is new features come online faster. There's more ability to get real time feedback from the community of users. And so as a software company, you can hopefully develop your version of a ridiculously helpful product much more quickly. Those are the those are the two big ways that I see that cloud computing is just a marvelous thing it's more of a thing. I mean, I'm headquartered in Puerto Rico. So this is where my studio is this is where I spend, you know, seven eight months of the year, but I travel a lot and I just got back from that sixty day European trip. I was talking about in the amazing thing about being on the road for sixty days is at a metal where I was whether it be Lisbon or Edinburgh. Or Greece or wherever it was. I literally just use my laptop which is not the computer, I use a desktop computer my headquarters, but my laptop, and I could just log into dropbox or or back blaze or carbon or any of these other potential, cloud computing AWS, and I get access my entire hard access anything. I've uploaded there it is all up there. So even if they know the worst the worst happen like did a year ago almost to the to the month when hurricane Maria tour through Puerto Rico, if I was going with that happens and my entire house blew over. And you know, my entire computer was destroyed. I could literally deploy everything that was on my computer onto wherever I was remotely in the matter of hours, and like that is such a peace of mind fire nation. That's just one of the many many many uses of cloud computing clears talking about as well. So before we move onto the next Ian final top clubs or anything you want to kind of drive home in this area. While it's great for parents or dog owners, or let's say my sister. To have the ability to look at what's going on houses of miles away from you. So you know, obviously, we can thank we can. Thank the internet, m m cloud computing for systems that allow us to to have nanny cams or doggie cams or in my sister's case a restaurant Cam. So she can figure out how productive the cooking staff is. Like, you might be laughing fire nation, but while I was in on cruise ship pulling into port. I literally pull them iphone logged onto the cruise ships internet, and my handyman was back here doing some work on my house, and I was just watching him. And I even like a joke message. I'm like Neil. You just walked by that branch. Like, why didn't you pick it up and throw it in the woods? He's like, oh, you got me. And it was just like such a crazy world that we live in. And of course, you wanna go nuts. Oh with it. But it can be super helpful and really make your life better ins real quick before we move on clear. I really want fire nation if you're in the Brooklyn area stopping to clear sisters restaurant and just let her know that because her you the older younger sister Clara, I'm the older one because her bigger sister was raving about her her her restaurant. Entrepreneurs on fire you had to stop by. And check it out with ever in the Brooklyn area. Make it happen. One more time clear what's the name of the restaurant. The location. Absolutely. So the name is Bessant with a P H pheasant and the address is four forty five Graham avenue in Brooklyn and honestly fire nation, if you do go there, please let cat know that I sent you because I probably couldn't afford buying a drink for everybody in fire nation for them. Wanna go to check it out. I'm sure your taste buds won't be disappointed. But also, I also love to and have set something up to the contribute Fords or desert of your choice. I can highly recommend anything taught at the comes out of the kitchen of a batch not been says, the chefs at favorite dessert, it is my favorite part and very much never unhappy with any of the drinks. They've got a great bartender. So please, please let them know that you can't fire nation. I'll have a little less westbound set up for the next month. I love it fire nation. Definitely make that happen. I mean, you can go into this gray rush on Brooklyn. You can just mention that you heard clear on entrepreneurs on fire your part of fire nation, you get gonna drink or dessert. I'm a little dumb because I'm not actually be up a New York City till March because I'm going to be there for two weeks for the big east basketball tournament like to go to every single year at massive Square Garden. So I'm still gonna shoot over clear to to Brooklyn this to see what's up bring some friends to that'll be a blast. But alas we have reached the last topic of today, which is using finance in accounting software to maximize profits in your business because Claire so many people find out way too late that it's not how much money you make how much money you keep what are those nets profits. That's what's going to have you win allow you to keep winning as an entrepreneur in finance and accounting software is going to get you there. I've utilized. View is it from day one fire nation in it is a massive reason for our financial success clear. Take it away. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's a brilliant way of phrasing at two. It's not the money. You make the money you keep and if you invite away keeping track of money is is time consuming the perfect candidate or where. And I think you know, everybody hopefully is using some kind of software to help them or not if you're using paper ledgers definitely time to invest algae that but if you're using like a quick. Door. But as your business gets more sophisticated you're probably going to need. More than more than that kind of basic entry level finance accounting software, and I would say that if you can only in back asked in one technology in the coming year don't already have it. It's finance accounting software that you should do X. Sure that you keep the profits that you're making, you know, unless of course, you're a professional accountant, and you feel like it's fun to do accounts receivable fails taxes income tax reporting and beyond ready for audits. I don't I think that's super fun way to spend my time. And so I'm very grateful that there are entire software solutions that can do it for me with much less pain when it would be for me to do it only for myself until that time savings, obviously goes into into into doing things you up to do. And and it can also help make business better because when you can track and I would say this then exit into another category. We're not gonna cover. Today, but into business intelligence software, but financed. Comic software is sort of your first look or you're like, I gateway drug into into into business intelligence. He can use your coming software to really understand what your biggest selling products or services are. Or who your best customers are and you can use the data to kind of figure out where to super size where to trim back where you need questions. If it's a great. It's a great tool not only for doing the path at hand. But also using the data from that asset him to begin to figure out how to fine. Tune your go to market. And, you know, John one of the things that I think people really need to keep in mind. When you're looking for accounting software is what do you really need? I really encourage people to think about buying software like hiring people and best practices in hiring. Individuals. Are I to bigger out your needs less like what is right and clear job description? What is this this role going to do what you know KPI's? What what are the key metrics that you're going to hold that that role to to know that it was worth hiring them? I will they demonstrate there are y. What what is the most important skill set that they need to bring to the table. Sometimes you really care about technical expertise. Don't care so much about personality and how kind of outgoing or have house fisted a manager. They are you just need somebody to get the work done. Sometimes you really care about the management stuff. And you kind of got other people to do the technical staff or sometimes or I would hope in every case people care about it being, you know, people being Bill Jim show up. They what they mean mean what they say. Be as attributes sort of the same way that you would interview a person for a job and the most important part about that is actually I being super fair with yourself about what that job is. And what success is higher gonna know that it successful in the same way. When you're buying software really think about it like an interview, which means in finance calming, for example, you know, clearly, you're gonna want double entry accounting, for example. And you're probably gonna want being able to import transactions from your Bank and cloud based accounting software for all the benefits we mentioned earlier probably gonna want some reporting tools to get that extra kind of juice from the data exhaust, you probably gonna want to count on the access if you were working with external accounted, but you may or may not meet invoicing or multi-currency support or payroll processing or payment. Passing or third party integrations may or may not be that portent to you. And so you gotta know what's like essential. It's what the central that software is going to play and make sure that those things are really strong. So when you read your of us, make sure that the meat of what you're trying to get everybody likes, and then be choosy about how much you're willing to pay for the stuff that doesn't really matter to you again, you know, like we talked about before review our great base figure that out and an if you're not sure exactly what features. What what optionality you need always start by? You know, finding those one one guy. You know, accounting software buying guide, for example, something that we put out every year like how should you go about thinking about this category of software? What's important? What's not important that can really help as well. Clear. You said a lot of awesome things today. But my favorite is still be ridiculously helpful because fire nation, if you can embody that in everything that you do you're going to see at a good high awesome level. And that's what kept here at us. They are ridiculously helpful. And that's why they're so successful. So clear a lot of great takeaways from this episode, but give us one thing you want to make sure that we walk away with we keep it in our memory banks. What's one thing that you want us to make sure that we get from our chat today. I guess I'm gonna say I want you guys remember to what is that? If you're looking for software. Capterra's a great place to start that search, but but the the ridiculously. Why actually concerned that would be helpful because it really will save you time. But, but but sort of a non capterra related thing that I really hope people remember is that everybody for the most part times the process of searching for software overwhelm, unpleasant. I have heard that were dragged it used before it is nobody feels like they are just absolutely fantastic at making sure they pick the right stuff and feel like, you know, they don't have any exile about did. I actually just do. My did I spend too much for this, etc. So just I hope people remember that you're not alone. And that you can learn a ton from other people's experiences. I know is what this podcast is all about. And that there no matter what industry are in or what it is you need whether it's software or something else. Asking for. Is is just most amazingly powerful tool. You have at your disposal, and it's available to you anytime organizations like mine, and many others that John you than reviewed are do do try and help 'cause we all wanna make the world a better place and have people enjoy themselves more rather than less in whatever way, we can love all of that and say number three fire nation, go to visit in Brooklyn. And get a free dessert. That's other take away from this episode. Shame. So great chat for all the obvious reasons in Clare question, like what is the best way for fire nation to checkout. Capterra's it. Just go to capterra dot com. Is there a better route to go? It's real simple. Capterra double RCA, P T R A dot com. And you know, what you'll land on our homepage. If you're looking for specific software right now, that's a great place to go. Another thing. You can do is just who go blog. Capterra. We're working on getting the blog better integrated with the main site, but there is a treasure trove of information in there as well. So and of course, honestly, if I can be helpful. I'm happy. Abate. Speech. Feel Email me directly at Clare at capterra dot com. Fire nation, you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with and you've been hanging out with Claire in jail de today. So keep up the heat in huge head over to he'll fire dot com, and you type Claire CLA I e interspersed bar the shoeless page is gonna pop up with everything that we've talked about today sh the show notes with the links galore. Everything's gonna be there period in of course, head directly over to capterra dot com as well to start those awesome searches to get your technology squared away. And I just wanna say clear, thank you for taking the time to share your truth your knowledge with fire nation today for that we salute you, and we'll catch you on the flip side. Hey, fire nation. Today's valuable content was brought to you by Claire and the capterra teen some cool stuff going on over there in if you a rate to accomplish that one single no big goal. Old the field journal is key. Because when you follow the step by step guys, you're gonna call that number one goal and just one hundred day. So visits the freedom journal dot com. Use promo code podcast for nice little discount is in. Thank you. For listening to my podcast to catch you their fire nation, or I will catch you on the flip side. You've heard me say this before ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire. Well, what makes recruiter? So smart it learns what you like when you post job on Zip Recruiter cert- reviewing applications. Your feedback teaches zip recruiter's matching technology more about the precise skills and experiences your looking for. That's how ZipRecruiter advice more qualified people to apply which helps you quickly get better. And better candidates until you find the perfect one in right now, you can try Zip Recruiter for free. That's right free. Just go to ZipRecruiter dot com slash fire. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash fire. Zip Recruiter once again. The smartest way to hire.
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#178: The Truth About High-Weight Anorexia with Erin Harrop, Weight-Stigma Researcher
This episode of food psych is brought to you by online course, intuitive eating fundamentals, if you're ready to leave diet culture behind and reclaim the life at stole from you. Learn more and sign up at Christie, Harrison dot com, slash course. That's Christie Harrison dot com, slash course, welcomes of food sake podcasts about intuitive eating health at every size body, liberation and taking down diet culture. I'm your host Christie Harrison, an anti diet registered dietitian and certified intuitive eating counselor offering online courses and programs to help people all over the world make peace with food. Join me here every week is I talk with interesting people from all walks of life about their relationships with food and their bodies. Member. Gums pleading evening. It was all about eating. We're not became. It was all about beef. Now, ready the world. Hey there. Welcome to episode one seventy eight of food sake. I'm your host Christie Harrison. And today, I'm talking with Aaron Harrop an eating disorders researcher who studies eating disorders and higher weight people. We discuss how anorexia is treated or not in folks of different sizes, how diet culture, and wait stigma influence treatment and recovery for disordered eating the problem with the quote, unquote, atypical anorexia label how improving eating disorder treatment and people in larger bodies can benefit everyone and so much more. I can't we share a conversation with you in a few minutes. And I think you're gonna love this one. But I I'll answer this week's listener question, which is from a listener named Lauren who writes hi Christie's so quick history of suffered from numerous eating disorders over the last six or seven years, including anorexia bulimia and binge eating but went to treatment for two very intensive years, including therapy of some kind for four or five days a week at an outpatient eating disorder clinic and was doing well when I laughed but in the past year, I think I've developed full-blown eating. Disorder. I don't understand how when I do not restrict my food anymore. I really don't. I haven't for ages. And I don't think I could diet anymore. If I tried, but anytime, I get remotely stressed or unhappy or sad or board a panic. Eat all this food. I secretly eat at work because I'm so shamed. I still try to then have my next meal, but I feel like I will gain so much weight. If I keep doing this because at the end of the day my calories are so high. But then if I restrict my next meal, I know that's how you perpetuate the cycle. I'm so lost in so down about it. I feel disgusting about myself. And honestly can't even look at my body in the mirror anymore. Please any advice would be amazing. Thanks for your amazing podcast. So thanks Lauren for that great question. And before I answer, just my standard. Disclaimer that these answers and this podcast in general are for informational and educational purposes only an art a substitute for individual, medical or mental health advice. So first of all, I just want to send a huge amount of compassion. You're way, it's so understandable that you'd be distressed about this, especially because you feel. You don't restrict your food anymore. But I want to let you know that I'm actually hearing something very different in your question. So I'm hearing that you're beating yourself up for the binging and that you secretly eat because you're so ashamed of eating and that you're afraid of weight game. And that you're still roughly estimating the number of calories. You eat in a day and judging yourself for that, and that you feel quote, unquote, disgusting and all of those things are actually forms of disordered thinking about food and body size. And they're creating restriction and deprivation in your mind, even if you aren't actively dieting the way that you used to those self judgments, and that weight stigma that you're exhibiting towards yourself are examples of what's known as the diet mentality. Which is the beliefs that you've absorbed and internalized from diet culture. So diet culture is what's out there in the world. The system of beliefs that demonize a some foods while elevating others stigmatizes larger bodies while elevating smaller ones promotes weight loss as a means of attaining higher status and. Actively oppresses people who don't meet up with its standard of quote, unquote, house are quote, unquote, beauty. So that's diet culture. It's out there in the world, and the diet mentality is how diet culture has taken root in your mind. So you've got some major diet mentality going on there. I can tell just from your question and addressing that is going to be the main key if not the entire key to healing your binge eating disorder. And I say it's the main key because it's possible. You've also been using food or perhaps the restriction of food as a coping mechanism in a way that predated any diet mentality stuff. I can't tell that from your question. But some people do have that experience. Although it's definitely rarer than the experience where the diet mentality is the entire cause of the binging. So either way in any case, you know, the first thing you have to do in order to stop the bingeing is to recover from the diet mentality. And stop beating yourself up over binging fearing, weight gain counting calories and all the rest of those disordered mental things you're doing to yourself. Off. And that is obviously easier said than done, so I'd really recommend getting back into working with an eating disorder savvy therapist and dietitian on a weekly basis. Not quite as intensive maybe as you were before. But you know, you definitely need a touch point with a treatment team. If you don't have one already and finding a treatment team who's well versed in health at every size is super important for being able to let go of that internalize, weight stigma. So I finally gotten around to starting a list of providers that I would recommend for helping you do this work, and you can find that list on my website at Christie Harrison dot com slash providers. That's Christie Harrison dot com slash providers. It's just therapists and dietitians right now. But I may be adding medical doctors by the time you hear this too. But it's really just providers focusing on eating disorder recovery and disordered Eating Recovery in a sort of outpatient sense. You know, a sense of having a treatment team to really do the work that you need to do to undo those disordered behaviors. So once. You've really worked through the ways that the diet mentality is hanging on for you. Then if there's any lingering binging as a coping mechanism, you can choose how to address that then, but you can't get to a place where you even know whether binging would be a coping mechanism in the absence of restriction until you stop the restriction. Because in many cases, the restriction is what's causing the binging to feel like an emotional coping mechanism or for you to feel like you're an emotional eater. When in reality. It's the deprivation that's actually causing those emotions, and that's causing you to turn to food. And in your case that restriction is manifesting primarily as mental restriction rather than physical dieting. Although there may still be some physical dieting that's going onto at a subtle level that you just don't recognize. So I would encourage you to really dig in and look at whether you're like eating less or serving yourself less than you actually want. Whether you're telling yourself something at the end of your meals, it's making you stop earlier weather. You're pushing off mealtimes like telling yourself. You can't eat until later, even when you're actually hungry or telling yourself, you have to be at a certain level of hunger in order to deserve to eat things. Like that are actually physical dieting too. They just might not seem like it. When you've been through such intense eating disorders in the past and had such a ramped up degree of dieting behaviors before just so, you know, those lower level behaviors are still dieting. So I would explore that for yourself as well. And I talked about all of this, especially the part about giving up the restriction in order to even see whether binging is a coping mechanism still or emotional eating is a coping mechanism still talked about all that and episode one fifty one with Judith mats. So I would encourage you to check out that episode for a deeper dive into all this stuff. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts or at Crecy Harrison dot com slash one fifty one. But the bottom line is that you actually are still restricting even if you don't recognize it as such and that is a driving force behind the binging. And by the way, the e. Eating disorder treatment. You received may have allowed the diet mentality that continue or even fan the flames of it. If you didn't go to treatment providers who are explicitly committed to health at every size. So in my conversation with Aaron Harrop in this episode. We talk about that we talk about how diet mentality and weight stigma amongst eating disorder, clinicians and treatment centers can hinder people's recovery. And keep them stock in this sort of pseudo recovered place, and so that's not to bash your treatment team because I'm sure they did a wonderful job in so many ways, but it's just worth reflecting on whether they inadvertently might have reinforced dia culture beliefs or allow them to continue, including if they focused a lot in treatment on resisting binges because that's something. I've seen a lot where people get so focused on resisting binges that it really reinforces the shame that dia culture already places on eating quote unquote too much. And so it actually can keep people stuck in the eating disordered mindset. So I would reflect on that I would look for a treatment team who. Health at every size and intuitive eating I've listed some of those providers on my website, again, Christie Harrison dot com slash providers, as well as links to some other directories, you can look at if you don't find anyone who's a fit on that list. So I hope that helps and I would really encourage you to accept an open up to the fact that you yes, indeed are still restricting at least at a mental level in a pretty significant way. There's some pretty significant diet mentality and disordered thinking about food and body size going on for you, and that's likely leading to some lower level dieting behaviors in your life as well that you might just not be recognizing as such. And so I would start there always start with the restriction. And always look for the hidden sources of restriction whenever there's binging including that mental level restriction that you might not even think of because it's just part of the fabric of how you think about food and your body, which of course, makes sense because we live in diet culture, you've been steeped in diet culture, your entire life and you've struggled for years with Syria. Disordered eating. And so, of course, you're going to have lingering disordered thoughts in attitudes around food and body size. But it's just important to keep pushing through and keep working to the next level of your recovery. Because right now, you are in the sort of pseudo recovered state, and there is so much more. That's possible for you. There's so much more life beyond this kind of disordered thinking and eating with food and there's life without feeling like you're rebound binge eating as well. So I would encourage you to unpack all of that. And explore all that. And I hope this was helpful. If you want to submit your own question for a chance to have it answered on an upcoming episode. You can go to Kristie Harrison dot com slash questions. That's Christie Harrison dot com slash questions. And then if you want to ask me any question you want, and how many answer it a lot more quickly than I can here because we're very behind because I get so many questions on the podcast. You can join online course, intuitive eating fundamentals, which has a wealth of audio and written content. Teaching you the principles of intuitive eating in depth. Plus, an exclusive monthly Q and a podcast where you get to ask me any question you want, and I answer it in a much more timely manner. And there's also hundreds of answers, I've given to other participants already so you can listen to those and work through all kinds of different sticking points. And stumbling blocks in intuitive eating and really start to put it into practice in your own life in an authentic way. When you join the course, you'll also get access to our private Facebook community exclusively, for course, participants. So you can have real time guidance from me, and my staff and hundreds of other great folks who are already in the course, and on this intuitive eating path with you. If you're ready to leave diet culture behind in two thousand nineteen come join the course and become part of this amazing community of people who will support you on your journey to intuitive eating learn more and sign up for the course at Christie, Harrison dot com, slash course. That's Christie Harrison dot com, slash course. Plus now through New Year's were offering gift subscriptions to the course. It's the perfect present for that loved one on your list needs some anti diet energy in there. Life, and who doesn't and my right. So you can do that. Or you can put it on your wishlist. So that your friends and family know, how to get it for you. Just go to Kristie Harrison dot com slash gift to get it. That's Christie Harrison dot com slash gift. This episode of food psych is brought to you by posh. Mark an amazing app you can use to shop for millions of closets across America. I use posh Mark myself to save money on clothes, and I often recommend it to my clients who are recovering from diet culture because it's a great way to make sure you have comfortable clothes that fit the body. You have now and posh Mark helps you sell the stuff you don't wear anymore. So that you can trade in those triggering clothes in your closet for some cash in your pocket. Shop from great range of brands all across the size and gender spectrum including plus sizes and kids clothes as well. You won't believe the deals you'll find and shipping is super fast and easy for both the seller and buyer and has handled all through the free posh Mark app. When you see something you want simply make the seller and offers the you can get items at a price that works for you. And when you're ready to get those old clothes out of your closet listing on posh markets. Incredibly easy. Just upload pictures of your stuff to the app set a price and then shipped to the lucky buyer today. You can get five dollars off your first purchase when you enter the invite code food psych when you sign up just download the free posh Mark app. Sign up and enter the code food psych that's F O D P S Y C H for five dollars off your first purchase. And just a quick announcement to let you know that we'll be off next week for the holidays. So we'll be reposting one of my favorite, and my listeners favorite episodes to help you have some self compassionate. This tricky time of year, and then we'll be back the following week with a brand new episode for the new year all about helping you navigate all of diet cultures. Sneaky, quote, unquote wellness messages this time of year. They're both really awesome episodes that I'm psyched to share with you. So be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get them delivered to your device as soon as they drop just go to Kristie Harrison dot com slash subscribe to do that. It's Kristie Harrison dot com slash subscribe. A now without any further ado, let's go talk to Aaron Harrop. So tell me about your relationship. With food growing up. I think in my family. It was definitely a bit complicated, which I think is true for probably many people. I grew up in a family of dieters for the most part where there was definitely kind of like, women's foods and men's foods. So there were the more diet. Okay. Foods that were kind of more focused on for the women in my family. And then the men seem to have more freedom to eat what they wanted. And so that was one section of food for me growing up, and I would say kind of my most positive memories of food had to do with learning how to cook with my grandmother. So she pretty much had me in the kitchen from actually I was I think like three or four years old when she was like teaching me how to use knives, and, you know, peel potatoes and cut vegetables and just like participate in the process, and I carry that like style of cooking that she taught me like to this day. Like, I still tend to be very creative. And. And I don't usually follow recipes. I just kind of go by taste and smell and the basics that I learned from her. That's amazing. So like intuitive cooking in a way. Yeah. Yeah. I was actually I was joking with my daughter about this earlier because she has she also is I like that intuitive cooking. She's she's experimenting. She's learning. Like, oh, we need to saute garlic before we add it to something or you know, how do you season things? And I think in the beginning it resulted in a lot of foods that I probably would not ever make again today. And the rule was that I had to eat it. If I made it because they didn't want me wasting ingredients. So I would definitely like make a lot of things and pretend to like it, and then share it with people to try and get them to eat it for me if it was not a great one. But then as I got more practice and started learning what things worked in what things I enjoyed as just become a lot more fun. That's awesome. Did you grandma kinda let you have free rein and like picking greedy aunts, or did she give you a little guidance around like, okay viscose with this or chop this and add it to that kind of thing when I was like learning with her, and we were making something together. She would kind of tell me what to do or she would be like, okay when it gets to this color, or this consistency than we do this next step. But in terms of my own experimentation in the kitchen, I was pretty much given full rein. So it resulted in things like garlic fried pickles, which would not. Recommend. And other things where I would try to maybe matched like the color of something. Like once I tried to make a frosting with just flour and milk because I wanted it to be white. So those are like some of the failed experiments, but on the flip side. Now, I definitely have an idea of. Okay. Here's kind of a base set of of cooking and skills and tastes than I can kind of go from there to build outward. I guess. Yeah. That's huge. I feel like that's kind of a rare thing for people to have in this day and age, but it's so important, so helpful. Yeah. It's it's definitely one of those things that I many of my friends that are my age. Don't have that kind of like skill set. And I'm I'm really grateful for it. It gives me the ability to kind of play with food and create things that people usually like and are often may be different than what you might see kind of on a standard menu. I guess that's cool. So more creativity. It like, yeah. I think when you learn those basics of how to tell when something's done or how to know just like cooking, the basic components of something. It does give you a lot of freedom and creativity. So how did it evolve for you, then throughout your childhood and adolescence as you grew up in your relationship with food. I think for me in childhood in Adelaide essence, I started to I continue to enjoy the playing with it. And I really like took on baking with a lot of gusto and my Adelaide's science. It was definitely a bonding activity with my friends in middle school and in high school, and then I think on the flip side of it as those like sociocultural pressures around thinness and good and bad foods started to leak, and it definitely influenced my ability to enjoy the food that I was making in terms of all of the sudden for me as I became more aware of what was okay in our culture for like women to eat or to be seen eating than it became harder for me to maybe eat the things that I cooked. And so I still kind of. Maintained that creativity. But I definitely went through a period where I tried to like make the same awesome, creative food. But with like more, I guess diet focused ingredients to, you know, can I change this out for this and still have it tastes good? And there's definitely a time. When I convinced myself that my food was just as good with these kind of worse, substitute ingredients. But now with a different level of food acceptance that I have today, I can see how all like a it. It didn't taste as good. It wasn't as as fulfilling be just being able to like cook. Without those rules, you know, without trying to think about like, well what actually like without focusing on like a calorie content. Like, how do I limit the calorie content of the food, which is what where I definitely started taking things in a more disordered place in my adolescence, and young adulthood, but coming back to that. How do I recapture like this tastes like how do I make this chicken taste, exactly the way my grandma made? Did it taste or how do I take this macaroni and cheese recipe that I have from her and how do I make it actually even better? So those are some of the things that I've kinda so yeah, I think I've been all all over the gamut with that. Yeah. It's so interesting to the CD that you can convince yourself that something tastes just as good. You know, like, I totally remember that in my dieting days and disordered eating days of like substituting things because that's so what diet culture is these days. It's like here's the healthy hack for this food or whatever like do this one without gluten this one without daring. It's yeah. I think so easy when you're in it to convince yourself that you really like it. I mean, there's a part of you that still knows I think, but it's like the desire for pleasure and the desire for satisfaction get subsumed to the desire for thinness. And so it's easy to just kind of tell yourself like, well, this is good. This is good enough. I'm this is just as good, and I'm being hell. Healthy quote unquote yet. And then that idea of like, how do I come back to this and figure out what I actually do like. 'cause I yeah, I've definitely experienced that a lot where for the longest time. Like, I couldn't figure out how I liked my law taste, and I had to experiment with different types of milk. You know, try and cream instead of milk, and, you know, different ratios of like the amount of Espresso, and yeah, I get a little picky. Some I'm from Seattle to in Seattle. We are very specific about our coffee. Try to do it not overly obsessive way. But there's definitely a right ratio for me with Espresso to vanilla to milk. I've got so I think that is like such a common thing to for anyone who's been chronically dieting or disordered eating for a long time like to come back to pleasure as an organizing principle as a guiding principle is so foreign at first, and I feel like I've worked with a lot of clients who are like, wait. What do you mean? What do I want? What do you mean? Choose something that tastes good. Like, what about the vegetables, or what about the carbs, or whatever, you know? And it's like, no. But actually, what are you genuinely want? And I think that that's one of just one of the many things that dia culture takes us really is this ability to pursue what we actually want. But I think it it spills over into so many other areas of life too. Yeah. And I think kind of like what you're saying as long as we have some of those remnants of that diet culture like still in our heads or even just on an unconscious level, it can make hearing that inner voice really challenging. And then for me, at least two I definitely had these kind of Ed be patient with that back period of like, it might be that my body is actually like leaning towards this type of food for a while. And you know, I can remember that in specific times like coming out of periods of deprivation where like as like man, I feel like this is definitely more ranch sauce than normal person would be wanting right now. But this is what tastes good to me an trying to find the bravery to like stick with it and give my body a chance to like make it through. It's like little ranch craving knowing that it's going to come back to a place where maybe it seems like a different amount of ranch that satisfying for me, or you know, with the coffee thing, right? Like there was a time when I just had like breath as with like the full cream 'cause that's what tasted good to me. And today, I do that. Sometimes when I'm in that place, and other days milk is just fine. So I think having that trust that a my body doesn't. Always want the same thing. And be if it is consistently wanting something for a while that may or may not change and see even if it does consistently want something that might feel scary or or challenging to me in my head that doesn't mess. Everything up. It's not the wholesome of my diet, or my intake that I don't think I've ever had a period when my body just wanted like all of just one food. It was always presenting with different types of things. Even if some of them seem more challenging or intimidating at the onset. Yeah. That's such a good point that it's I mean, it does take a lot of trust and bravery right to get through that place because when you've been told your whole life or even turn allies messages that say, these foods are bad, and you're bad for wanting them or you shouldn't eat them. They're going to kill you, whatever it's really hard to go against those internalized messages. Even when you know those messages are crap. And like you're ready to move on. Think it still takes a lot to make those choices day in and day out. Yeah, I think sometimes an intuitive eating we just we have that idea that like, okay. Well, once you do this your body just becomes magically intuitive. And you're very attuned to it, and you just listened to your body, and you eat what it tells you to. And it just tells you to eat this amazingly balanced diverse palette of beautiful rainbow foods. For me that just hasn't been the case of I don't think it's been negative or necessarily. But it I just I guess my plates rarely look like they're really pretty ones on Instagram with kale and the avocado slices on a piece of toast with fresh mango, and like little tendrils of other green things like it's it's usually like, well, maybe that's like my, you know, kinda casserole roots coming through. It's a lot less. Pretty oh same. I mean, I can't imagine. I feel like it's just so time consuming and expensive to eat that way, you know, the way that like Instagram wants to eat, and yeah, my food is much less pretty than that too. And I feel like in a way if people I mean, I think that that sort of a sump Shen. Oh intuitive. Eating means I'm going to eat like that. And my palate of food is going to be this beautiful rainbow of like, whole foods and. Process things quote, unquote. And like nary a sweet will pass my lips. It's like, you know, what is that? I feel like that expectation is coming from diet culture, you know, and I totally had that expectation for myself to and when I wasn't eating like that was sort of like oh God. Is there? Something wrong doing intuitive eating wrong like very much. Remember that feeling but I think it's intuitive eating has even gotten twisted in the service of diet culture in some ways, you know, that the wellness diet has co-opted intuitive eating too and has made it made it out to be like you eat like this annual be this thin, white Instagram person goes to soul cycle all the time. Your turn to your natural roots of wanting like all this whole the. Oh, gosh. Yeah. That like in quote, unquote, natural way is that. Yes. And and yeah, really, it's not it's so much more diverse than that. Yeah. Like, you said, you know, you don't have the same exact craving every single day or maybe you have it for a while. And then it changes, and it view become more interested in variety or something. But it's not like you start eating intuitively. And suddenly, you find this like magical balance because I think also you're like when you're restricted I always talk about like the restriction pendulum. You know, like you pull yourself all the way over to the side of restriction. You have to swing over to the side of like feeling like a little out of control or like kind of you know, it's like freefalling kind of like you're in this this place of feeling like you're eating quote unquote too much. But it's really the equal and opposite reaction that you have to have to the restriction. And eventually, maybe. You will stop swinging. So wildly you know and have like more gentle swings the way that people who aren't restricted do. But it can take time. Yeah. Yeah. So what was that journey like for you? Then and getting into your work to like, how did you go from a dieting teenager and trying to kind of make substitutions and restrict your food and stuff to now the fat studies and anti weight stigma scholar that you are today. Well, I think dieting is probably putting it lightly. I would definitely say it was clinical eating disorder. Just ignoring that. In terms of. I don't want some of the things that I described to sound like, oh, this was normal for any fifteen year old. But I think for me coming out of that food fear. It went step by step. You know? And once I've finally for me, I had very subpar recovery as long as. I had what I would consider like an a normal standard traditional dietitian. And by that. I mean, someone who kinda like gave me a list of good things to eat and bad things to eat. And was this like an an eating disorder specific dietitian or just sort of regular, you know, I went to her foreign eating disorder. I don't know how specifically trained share. So it was definitely like here are these health smoothies that might help you get healthier kind of thing and oddly enough my eating disorder did not get better in that lens. Then it wasn't until I had more of a a haze based nutritionists that I was able to actually start encountering some of those fear foods making more peace with it. And and I do say that it was like step by step because I can remember some of those first steps that were really big steps like taking vitamin or eating a popsicle like things that actually felt like quite challenging to me at the time. And now looking back if someone told me data popsicle every day, I'd be like, okay? If they told me to take vitamin I might be like a little bit more resistant because I just you know, it'd be one more thing to remember. But it wouldn't be about like, oh, this feels wrong for me to do this. So I think it was a lot of those little steps. And for me, I you know, I just I remember rediscovering food daily and weekly. I actually have probably about eighty pictures of me with first food 's eating food after not having eaten it for a long period of time. And so I tried to celebrate it instead of feeling ashamed about it. So I just kind of carry this is back when we had disposable cameras. And uh. So I like, you know, would carry this disposable camera with me. And it's like, oh my God. We're eating burritos today. Okay. Like, let's get a picture of me with this burrito. Or we're having burgers, or, you know, I'm I'm having a Scone like, you know, all those things that for me were big I for mayor like, I am drinking a milkshake with a meal things that were things that I that violated kind of the rules that I had an passed. I started to kind of celebrate them. And then, you know, with that step-by-step thing it's just been a very long journey for me decades long and one that I think in terms of the Hayes work in the fat acceptance work that you brought up I think one of the things that kind of stalled me out in my own journey for a really long time was not wanting to explore beyond a certain point in recovery. And I think we. See this in eating disorders. Sometimes swear, we get recovery to a certain point. But maybe then that recovering meal plan becomes the new eating disorder, and those exchanges are types of meals that you're supposed to have in recovery. Become a new way of the good way to eat. Yeah. It's like the die the recovery diet. Yeah. So I think over the years that's been where Hayes and fat acceptance has stepped in for me in terms of like, how do I push beyond that? I still have a treatment center meal plan on a card in my wallet today, and I don't follow it anymore. But there was a long time. When I did, you know, and it was every meal looked it might look different. But I was still trying to eat a certain number of exchanges and today, I think that's where Hayes in fat. Acceptance has kind of pushed the bubble on my relationship with food is trying to really see like, where's my eating disorder potentially showing up in different ways today in ways. Is that hold hands or partner with diet culture? And how do I still try and dig up some of those routes where it still sticking around? Yeah. That's such a good point that it really I think diet culture allows for that to to like get to recovery to a certain point and then without Hayes and intuitive eating sort of stepping in. I think it's easy to just say. Okay, I'm recovered. This is good enough. I mean, that's where I was for many years to in the sort of grey zone of like still disordered eating, but it wasn't a full blown eating disorder. And it wasn't so severe that. People were noticing or anything, you know. It was just like, yeah. I'm a little weird about food. But so is everyone it's so easy. I think India culture to kind of be like everyone's a little weird about food. And and it's true, you know, because of because we all are all steeped in this philosophy in his mindset of, you know, making us fearful about food there an of weight too. I mean, I think the. Added peace riot is like when you're someone in a larger body when you experience weight stigma firsthand. And of course, we all experience internalized, weight stigma from the culture that just tells us being fat as bad, but when you are having to face it and go to doctors who tell you to lose weight, or whatever, you know, or if have God forbid like eating disorder treatment professionals who are like, well, don't gain above a certain, you know, this is as much as you get to gain in recovery, or whatever then it's like this whole other layer of just being really hemmed into this box by dia culture. Yes. I would agree in. I'm actually I'm glad you brought that point up because I think often in even in eating disorder treatment. It can be so easy to focus on the food. Is if the weight doesn't matter, and we say that all the time, right? Like, we say like, okay, we just want to normalize you're eating and this weight thing that'll just kinda take care of itself when we normalize you're eating, but that is definitely not how it works out in practice and. I would say that that was another one of the things that held me back in addition to kind of that rigid adherence to that that meal plan was that I didn't have eating disorder providers that could kind of like see the big picture of what weight meant and as somebody who had actually been restricted from very young age and throughout all the critical points in my development. We didn't have like a good idea for where my body should stabilize. We didn't have a reliable growth curve that was not influenced by restriction and exercise. And so that was a big stumbling block for me in in recovery. Was that you know, the. I I saw this provider who has who's very capable and very detail oriented, and you know, I had the ducks the scan that told like how head me my bones were and have done. So they were and how big they were. And I had this electronic imaging that measured all of the body fat and all the different parts of my body. And I you know, I had all these like, fitness and endurance tests that measured like my muscle capacity for different types of exercises. And they did all of this stuff, and they came up with this town range were they taught my body when go God recovery, and I don't like I was out of that range like I was higher than that range before I even left the first level of an inpatient treatment center, and I would probably guess too. Like, I know today that I am significantly more than that pound range that they gave me, and you know. It. I've had serious medical complications like at much higher weight since then. And so, you know, I think sometimes we have this idea that if we if we do all our math right as a clinician, right? Like, if I know exactly how my client is eating, and if I know exactly all these things about their body. And if if I get them to eat perfect that their body is going to do this beautiful recovery a thing, and that that beautiful recovery thing is going to look the way that I expect it to and at least for me in my experience. People had no idea what was going on with my body. What that the message that that sent me at a certain point was that recovery was wrong or the I was doing recovery wrong at some of the points when I had the most freedom from the eating disorder in my life. And so I think we have to be careful about what we tell people recovery looks like in a body and what we the. Kind of expectations that we set up for people in terms of what does it like, we not we might not be doing weight restoration because we not might not have a place that we're restoring two that Pryor point might have been during a time when the person was restricting and compensating, and so like, we might not know where that restoration point is because their bodies never had a chance to actually grow and fully develop. And for me like I grew two inches in my twenties. You know with food. So I think knowing I don't know I think giving our bodies permission to do what they need to do in recovery is Gary for both the patient and for the clinician because we just we I think sometimes as clinicians we can get on board with the person's fear of food or their fear of fat. And so I think that is particularly important when we're thinking about higher way eating disorders or people who are having those disordered eating behaviors at the higher end of the weight spectrum such a great point, especially because I think, you know, it's like clinicians can get on board with people's eating disorder mindset to some extent. And then also because we live in diet culture. I think we all have an eating disorder mindset to some extent, you know, that diet culture instills, these disordered beliefs about food and bodies that clinicians even might carry in with them, you know, especially body size. Even if clinicians have done a lot of their own work around their relation. Ship with food. I think it's rarer for clinicians to do their own work around their relationship with size in terms of accepting all sized bodies, you know, because it's like we can get supervision or therapy, and sort of learn to accept our bodies at the size. They are now if we're like thinner bodied clinicians, you know, but if you're still if you're like, a smaller body clinician, and you're still afraid to some extent of your client getting into a larger body like you're absolutely just going to collude with the eating disorder on that point. And it's not even you know, there's really no hope to sort of challenge that at that point. Yes. And I I think to especially like, maybe you've even only seen this person as then presenting individual or a person presenting it what you might consider a fairly like normative BMI. And I hope you can hear the quotes around those words, but I think it can be. Hard to hear or to like to like to see a person's body and body type change, you know, for me, I went from a very thin presenting individual to somebody whose body is what I consider that today and not from like an eating disorder might set but fat in that reclaimed sense of the word, and so for providers that I had that it only seen me as a thin presenting person. Like, I I often wonder like what was going through your mind is my body was was becoming fat. Were you worried, you know, and for me? Luckily, I had a team who very much was more concerned with my eating behaviors and my health. But I know that had I had a different team. Maybe when I came in. And I said, oh, God I feel like I'm just eating so much. Maybe they would have been like, oh, well, what are you eating great? Then stead of always bringing that critical ED nutritionist mindset that I hope we can bring to our patients when they say, oh, God, I ate so much. And you're like, oh, really will what fell? A lot to you. You know, instead of bringing that curiosity that I would hope that we could bring anybody who's having some kind of judgement around a food or type of food or about I know that had I walked into a different office. I could have received the message that that I was in fact eating too much when for me at least my eating disorder has looked like something that has always been consistently restrictive. But yeah, that that's something that I see with my participants in the research study a lot that they just they received very different feedback from clinicians. I've definitely seen that as well in my work with eating disorder treatment centers, both as a an intern. When I did observe people relating to clients and eating disorder treatment centers. And then as a clinician myself, you know, networking with their treatment providers there. It's like some of the messages that people in larger bodies got from treatment centres were just mind boggling, it's like, of course, the person. In struggling with you know, when they're getting these messages like what are you doing? And it's not I think it's just a a lack of awareness, and a lack of sort of going that extra level of unlearn, diet culture. Not just on learning the eating, you know, not just sort of self reflection on making peace with your own body in your own food, but getting diet culture out of your head. So that you're not imposing those beliefs on other people's bodies. And so that you're not like are you sure you need that extra snack. You know like oh God. My god. So terrible. Yes. So I would love to talk more about your research. And I kind of like how did you get involved in doing this research and find your way to health at every size and then dig into like what your research is actually finding. Yeah. Well, I think like many of us in the eating disorder field. I actually can't think of anybody who doesn't have some kind of personal connection, I know same either through a friend or family member or themselves. But I definitely came. I knew kind of from a young age that I wanted to do something with eating disorders. And I think it was more in my gosh would have been like late twenties that I kind of started focusing a little bit more on eight what we call a typical interact Zia and weight stigma, and for me that came out of a personal experience. Where I presented with a typical anorexia had previously been what we would call typical anorexia and then. I now because my body was larger had the same eating disorder, at least I perceived it to be the same it. Sure looked at Bolton sounded the same. But my body was larger, and I actually had to inpatient experiences wanted that typical level and wanted an atypical level and looking back at the treatment experiences. They were so different. And if I hadn't already had so much training in Hayes from I like decade of treatment prior. I can only imagine that. I mean, I I actually I did need treatment after I came out of treatment. And so I I can only imagine what it would have been like if I didn't have access to those resources. And so that was kind for me one of the start of like, what is going on that experience was just so formative and how I started to think about weight bias, and the fact that for me from my lived experiences a person this was pretty much. I was kind of reliving a very similar eating disorder that I had had in my youth. But for all of my providers, at least in this particular center, I was treated just very very differently. Where it really was like you said you made that joke about the extra snack. I had like an hour nutritional session about like whether or not I could put cheese on a sandwich where I was advocating for cheese because everybody else had it. And I was feeling even though my eating disorder. Didn't want me to have it. I just didn't wanna stand out. And I was like, you know, really like what is one slice of cheese have to do with anything. Like, this has no. The cell has no long term impact on like my physical health whatsoever. But it has a really big impact on my mental health. When I'm with my peers and everybody else has cheese, and I don't and so things like that. Where like it's just like, not your standard anorexia patient conversation like. And so I think those that experience in particular was very formative for when I did get to a different place in my recovery. Coming back with the idea that this is not how treatment should be for folks whose bodies are heavier. We need to do a better job of it. And just really seeing how some of the kind of standard ways that we practice eating disorder treatment can really cause harm for folks in larger bodies. And I would argue that that also causes harm for folks in quote, normal weight or thin bodies. Because anytime that we're partnering with phobia or we are Norman or okaying thinness as as preferable to fatness, we are really subtly reinforcing the lies of an eating disorder. Whether that's for somebody who's higher way over someone who's lower weight. So I think by focusing on. How do we improve treatment experiences for people in higher way bodies? What we're actually talking about is how. Do we get even better at beating eating disorders? Like, how do we get even better about finding their lies finding those sneaky subtle places where they are looking like health or looking like normalcy or looking like beauty and kind of like trying to get that out of our or at least like bring it to light. So that we can actually treat those parts and have a critical dialogue about them to write like, yes. Not let them just be sort of unconscious. Yes. That's such a great point. And you're right that it really is just like that's what good care looks like for eating disorders is not having weight bias in the picture because weight bias is like what got people to this point. Right. Wait by us as as a large part of what creates this disorder thinking about food and bodies. And so if we're reinforcing that in our treatment programs than we're just taking away people's ability to recover, and it's no wonder so many treatment. Grams have such high recidivism rates, honestly, you know, with that sort of mentality. Yeah. And can we call it out when we see it? You know, you you have a fat staff member on a treatment team. And you have patients that are afraid or mocking that fat staff member. How do you use that as a teaching moment, and like how do you call attention to like, hey, what's going on right here is weight based discrimination? And it's not okay. And this is part of the root of your eating disorder. Like, no, we're not gonna we're not gonna have this fat person. We're not going to put them over here and not have them eat with you anymore because you're afraid of their body. I mean as long as it's okay with this poor fat person has right? But we're actually going to talk about this. You had this behavior. You had this joke or whatever that came up in this treatment milio that you are, you know, and we're actually going to talk about it. And what it means, and how it connects to you in your own fears or the fears of the eating disorder. I know how mazing would that be? If treatment centers could do. Do that. And it's an uncomfortable conversation for sure, and it's there's a lot of nuance to making sure the person is. Of the fat person is comfortable being in that conversation. Of course. But yeah, it's just it. I think that would be revolutionary and yet it's not what we see. Right. I mean, I'd love to hear some of what you've found in doing this research on well, you know, higher weight anorexia and just the idea of why it's even called atypical in the first place. You know, like what what's that about? Yeah. Some actually I'm working on what in research, we call as a systematic reviews that means you look at all of the research out there on a certain topic. And kind of evaluate it for how good is it's quality. And what is it say? And you 'cause you can find like a study anywhere that says anything pretty much we really wanna know. Like was that actually a good study? And if that was a good study that said that one thing have other people found the same thing, or is that just kind of like special to that one little area of the world. So yeah, I am working right now on a systematic review of all all back to two thousand seven when we first started looking at changing the DSM to include a category for highway anorexia, and many of the studies out there have found that what we call a typical enter Xia is actually more prevalent than what we call typical interacts which would be the underweight version of anorexia. And there are other studies that show the opposite that it's less common. One thing though, that I think is missing in this literature is even when we are saying that we're looking at highway anorexia, many of these research studies still have what I would consider a very small weight range that they're willing that they have participants in. So these are participants who are still either in a what we would consider the normal range of BMI, according to current BMI standards or patients who are just slightly out of that who are just slightly above. And so we're not actually seeing what higher way anorexia looks like across the weight spectrum. And I think many of those folks who are having that restrictive eating disorder behavior, but are still at higher weights than we would consider they they seem to be put into like another category, even like this unspecified. And I think that's because there's a lot of resistance to classifying someone with a much larger body. As having erect CEA when in fact, when we when we're actually looking at just what people are reporting in terms of their behavior their intake their compensation behaviors we can actually see that disease of anorexia manifest across the weight spectrum whether that's underweight, quote, unquote, normal way or in higher and much higher weight categories. So yeah, I I'm not a fan of calling it a typical I think just by the nature of the word. It sounds uttering. I just think of anorexia as a disease where people intentionally restricted starve and use unhealthy compensatory behaviors. That's kind of what I think. And I think sometimes people lose a lot of weight, especially if it's the first time that they've tried it. And then I think as people get older and have done these behaviors for longer often weight Loss's not coming forward as a primary symptom or people's bodies may actually gain weight while engaging in these. In these self-starvation behaviors. And so I think as long as we continue to rely on weight as the primary indicator of the disease, we're going gonna miss many people who have not only mentally significant disorders, but we're going to miss people that have clinically like medically significant disorders, and that's another finding from the review that I'm doing right now is that kind of regardless of weight, we're seeing similar medical symptoms manifest for folks. And so it doesn't even seem to be a good Indyk weight doesn't even seem to be a good indicator of like when a person needs medical attention, but is huge because I know so much insurance and care decisions are based on whether a person is quote, unquote, underweight, and that would allow them to get reimbursed for a typical anorexia diagnosis and also I think a lot in a lot of clinicians minds. And I know I used to be like this to it's thought that the weight loss. This causes those medical complications. And in fact, it's not actually the weight loss at all that's causing them. It's like the act of starvation, right, which is different than weight loss. Yes. So curious if you can illuminate that part a little bit. Yeah. So that is definitely what I'm finding in many of the studies that I'm reviewing and to put that in kind of. So my research is is not just review is kind of the background for my research in my research, actually has to do with speaking with patients who've had these symptoms in these disorders and hearing what they're disorders have been like how they've changed over the years. And then also how they've interacted with medical and professional like eating disorder professionals and one of the things that I'm finding so I asked folks Pacific about medical complications that they've had documented in a medical chart, and I also asked them about the actual like lived symptoms of it. So for instance, when you are severely restricted or. Or experiencing a lot of compensatory behaviors. Specifically, Pershing your body might become static which means that it has difficulty regulating its blood pressure when you change positions like when you go from sitting to standing or laying to sitting, and so we might see whereas like a normal happy healthy nourished body kind of strives for this place of homies stasis where it, you know, like you stand up and you sit down, and it's not like a life threatening situation, and it just kind of adjusts, and you're good to go, and we're really thankful for that like automatic nervous system that does that for us for somebody who is starving. And or who is having a lot of purging behaviors you might see that their body can no longer perform that kind of really basic task of regulating their blood pressure. And so that's why you might if you have starved before you might feel like light headed or dizzy when you stand up or after getting up from laying down things like that, you might feel unsteady on your feet or have since. Nations of vertigo that kind of thing. And so in a study like I'm asking people both about like, what has been documented in your chart would have doctors measured. What diagnoses have you received that could be related to your eating disorder things like being or the static? And what are some of the things that you've experienced like dizziness when standing or changing physicians that might not have even been measured. But maybe you did experience it, and it just wasn't caught by the medical professionals in your life. And one of the things that I'm finding is that for many of my patients, especially those who are at the higher end of my high weight spectrum they haven't had the tests. So they haven't had somebody measure to see if they were or the static even when they were reporting things like falling when trying to stand fainting when tried to stand dizziness, they reported these symptoms to their medical providers and nothing was done. There was no further investigation. And so that type of thing, and that's hard because you look in the literature. And for instance, there is sometimes we find like equal rates of something being diagnosed in a typical versus typical population. And sometimes you might see that. There's like one of the studies that I just read found like a lower rate of prolonged q t interval, which is an earful on your heart beat the often gets along gated when people are starving or purging and the article they found pretty much very few differences between typical interacts yet an atypical, but one of the differences that they did find was less QT along Gatien in a typical. So it appeared that those folks were actually doing better and then in their limitation section. They mentioned that not all of the tests were performed on all of the patients because it was based on what clinicians thought needed to be done. And so the critique that I would bring to that is that if this group of patients has been medically similar in every other way, and this is the one way that they haven't been medically similar, but you didn't actually test. Them all it's just one of those areas where often research you find what you're looking to find. And so that's often in the case, at least with my participants that I'm finding is that many of my smaller participants have been screened, and they know what I'm talking about. When I asked them have you been or the static and others, especially some of my higher weight. Participants have not received those screenings and may have actually never even been involved in formal treatment for their eating disorder. So I think a lot of times it's as clinicians. We have to think like if this person were small and thin and emaciated until they had the symptom. What tests would I run what assessment would I do because sometimes we have to like outsmart our own weight bias because like we just automatically dismiss things that don't fit into our understanding. Oh such a good point. Because it is really wait by us. Right. That's causing the clinicians, not to screen people for these things that they just think it should only be smaller bodied person who. Who has this or that the typical quote unquote picture of anorexia is what would go along with this the symptom versus if someone in a larger body has it? I mean, I don't even know how people explain that away. You know, is it just like, oh, I don't know. That's just you like what I read an article recently, it was in pediatrics so pretty good journal, and they were talking about it was a case study of two adolescents who had been very obese big scare quotes, and they each developed eating disorders and for the the girl. She ended up presenting multiple times having Amena RIA being or the static having a low pulse rate, and they're like, oh, well, you're just really athletic, and you just run a lot. And that's probably why you're pulses so low, and that's probably why you lost your period. And that's probably why you have shin splints, and that's probably why your electrolytes are off a little bit. And so there was just the. This explanation of healthfulness like behaviors that we would want to see like a young active athletic girl, without that attention to like, well, like how much are you eating and how much are you exercising and for the other case of the the mail that they reported in this in this article like they ran him through so many like odd tests like expensive and unusual disorders right things that are far less common than eating disorders are in Adelaide sense. And they ran all of those tests and costs all that like insurance money and probably all that worried to this poor family whose wondering like what kind of weird unusual. Diseased as my son have and finally in the case of both of these these adolescents their parents advocated hard enough for an eating disorder assessment. But it was way delayed way delayed from the time that they've presented with their first eating disorder symptoms physically. You know, not to mention like the behavioral symptoms, which were present, far sooner. They had just progressed. So. Much more into their disease and had we caught them earlier, my guests, you know, we know that early intervention and early treatment and screening is such a good predictor of outcome. You know, if we caught it earlier how much better could their trajectories have been seriously. And I remember from your presentation at Asda that you talked about this delay in getting treatment. Right. What does that look like for people with higher weight anorexia versus people with the so-called traditional anorexia? Yeah. So in my study, I asked people how old were you? When you thought you I had an eating disorder like when you like look back and you're like, Yep. And not like how old you looking back are. But like when you when you were an adolescent or a young adult or an adult like how old were you when you realized this was a problem, and you had an eating disorder. And then I ask them how old they were when they first got treatment for their eating disorder. And currently I have updated numbers since as dex, but there's currently twenty eight people in this study. Easy. And the average is twelve and three quarters years. So twelve point seven five years between when a person thought they had an eating disorder to when they got in disorder treatment. And that is actually not including two people who have not received treatment yet. So like their their numbers. I I left him in there because that would just like throw off all the averages if I just had these very long numbers, so they're excluded. And that's a range of zero years. So for for a couple of people as soon as they realized they had an indie, so they got treatment and the range goes all the way up to thirty seven years where one woman waited thirty seven years, and I believe it's that woman or no, actually, it's a different woman. Another woman told me that she actually went, and this has happened multiple times where people have gone specifically to medical professionals and said, I think I have an eating disorder. One woman said she went to or doctor said, I think I have anorexia the doctor said, no, you way, too much and that was the end of the conversation. You know, and she didn't end up receiving help for another twenty ish years and these are serious diseases. And so that this is not a Representative sample. This is not everybody's story. But this is also like in some ways, the majority of people in my study have received treatment, and that is also not the norm most people with eating disorders do not actually receive formal treatment. And so in some ways, even though I'm saying that this is, you know, this might be a worse case scenario looking at this like twelve thirteen year treatment delay it also might be a better case scenario because these are people who have actually received treatment, not people, right? I wonder if like those two people that you excluded or actually more the norm. You know that they think they haven't eating disorder and they've never actually received formal treatment because I can also now look back and say like, I think I had so-called atypical anorexia are higher wade- anorexia. But I wasn't even higher weight. I was I was in. Smaller body, but the so-called normal BMI range and wasn't diagnosed either, you know, even I would have fit into the Ed knows category at the time the eating disorder, another otherwise specified, but similarly to what that one participant you said where she went to the doctor and like said, I think I haven't eating disorder. You know, I went to my therapist. And I said, hey, you know, my mom, and my friends are all kinda worried about me, and they think I haven't eating disorder. That's silly, right. Like kind of being like into nihil about it. But also like opening the door and being like, let me talk about this with my therapist. And she said, oh, no. That's you couldn't have that. Like, you're not thin enough, basically, and knowing sort of how I felt and now having worked with a lot of people with eating disorders like the eating disorder is going to be so inflamed by that kind of rhetoric. Right. It's like you. You're telling me, I'm not thin enough. I'll show you thin enough. You know, like, it's. Yeah. It's a goad. It's a challenge to the eating disorder to get even. Worse. So that eventually someone will pay attention, and, you know, not pay attention. Like, we're doing it for attention, but pay attention like take it seriously. And give me some help, you know. And so I can only imagine for that participant who was told, you know, you don't have an eating disorder and then thirty years later like gets help. I mean, there's so many people out there like that. And when she did get help, she did find a center that could look at higher weight, folks. And diagnosed treatment for indicators she was actually put into a binge eating disorder group. Oh, and she never actually she never got a food plan because of that because they were trying to do they were trying to do as they were trying to do like a all foods fit approach. And so when she did present for treatment after eating a very restricted diet from away they kind of I don't like I'm wondering what went on in the assessors mind cause if they had asked like what she was eating. They would have. They would have known that she belonged in a restrictive eating disorder group. Not in a binge eating disorder group. But I think probably what happened is she went in and probably said like gosh, I feel like I'm eating so much food. And they probably looked at her. And was like, well, you're fat. Okay. Well, we want you to feel comfortable with all the food that you're eating because we're a Hayes center. And so like, let's talk about making pieces food instead of thinking like maybe this person needs some repeating like, what does she think is a lot of food 'cause having done like a full clinical diagnostic assessment interview with her those over an hour like she'd never actually in her lifetime meta criteria for binge eating disorder, but she definitely has met criteria for a typical inner Xia. And so, yeah, I think thinking about like when they actually do make it to our treatment doors, and they do show up. Like are we when they say they're eating a lot. Are we just accepting that because of our own weight bias in their body? Similarly, if they say, they're eating a little are. We are we failing to like believe them. Are we thinking to ourselves like, well, they have to be eating more than that. Or they wouldn't look like this. You know, I think it gets flipped for thin patients. Right. They might come in and say like, you know, oh, I'm eating so much. And we're like, oh, really Honey like how much do you think you're eating, you know? And then they might say like, I'm not really restricting. And then we're like, oh, but let let's look maybe you are, you know. So I think we have to like check our assumptions when we think patient is lying when we think somebody that we're treating is lying to us. We need to really think about our own bias biases to you know, maybe they are eating disorders are tricky. And these are behaviors that carry a lot of guilt and shame. But I think by the time people are asking for help we need to be able to believe them. Yeah. And I think too it's it's hard for someone who's really in it with an eating disorder to accurately assess eat egg, right? Like, you know, it's like any like any amount of food seems like a lot of food, and, you know, a tiny amount of food seems so it's yeah, it's just like an restriction. You know? I think a lot of people also with restrictive eating disorders and really. I forget who said it. I think someone on the podcast said, you know, I think all all eating disorders are restrictive eating disorders, really, which I think was, you know, very astute because I think a lot of, you know, most of the time binge eating disorder bulimia any other type of eating disorder kind of comes out of this restrictive mindset, not like one hundred percent at the time. But you know, most often, but you know for people who are restricting. I think there is often, eb and flow. You know, I experienced this myself where there were times when I was restricting really severely and then times when I was restricting a little less because I just couldn't keep it up. I was swinging back and forth between binging and restricting. And as a natural thing or I was just trying to maybe ease up a little bit. Because I realized that the the stricken I was doing wasn't able to sustain. And so in those moments of like slightly easing up on the restriction. I think it's easy to be like, oh, I'm not restricting anymore because it's not like that back there where I was restricted, you know, that was restricting. This is just this is normal. When really when you look at it, and sort of the continuum of things, you're still way on the restrictive side and have so much more to go to get to a place of truly not restricting. So so I think like, yeah. Really kinda getting under that with clients and understanding what people are deeming as restrictive or not restrictive or too much or binging or whatever is so important. Yeah. And doing that without letting weight bias color your assessment. Yeah. I think that's been some of the the most useful parts of the diagnostic interviews that. I'm doing is like just asking people. Like, what does that mean? You said you were binging like what did that look like, can you be a little more specific? Right. You know, and and actually get the details instead of just assuming and I've I've caught myself doing this as well. Right. Where someone reports to me like, oh, I binged I'd automatically believe them. 'cause I think they know what they're talking about because they've been to eating disorder treatment. Right. And so I think like well, okay. Like you've been to treatment. Of course, you know, what a benches, but then when actually. Hear them talk about it. I'm like, oh, God, you know, like eating throughout the day because you're not eating anything else is not a binge. That's like maintenance eating when you're really starved. Like I had a chip in. Then I had another chip, you know, like, that's and so like learning what this actually looks like for folks and asking more questions and trying not to assume. Yeah, it's interesting because like I think when especially for people who work at eating disorder treatment centers who've seen a lot of people with eating disorders. It's like maybe tempting to sort of be like, okay. Yeah. So you've binged so like, let's go to the next thing. You know, rather than having her like tease apart? What actually binge means because it's you know, maybe sort of boring or old hat or you think, you know, but actually getting in there and talking about what it means to a particular person is the work because that can be so eliminating when someone I know I've had this experience of telling someone that what they were doing what they thought was binge was not. Binge that that is actually maintenance eating like you said that was sustaining them through starvation. And it's like some people are just gobsmacked by that some people are are also really defensive about it. And you know, you have to sort of manage whatever comes up for the person. But I think it can be can be so eliminating and for a person who's in the right mind frame to take that in. I think it can be extremely healing. Give them permission to not think of something as a binge and demonize it but actually say like, oh, my body needs this. I'm so glad you brought that up because that's something that I'm just discovering more and more the more than I do these interviews, and I I did I I filled out like an extra twenty or forty page supplement for my f- exports that I could like give people their results back Ryan in which I just feel like it's ethical any way. Right. Like, you know information we let them keep ownership. But so something that I get to do in the interview. Is just be like, hey, like, look either. Like, okay. Like, you know, you thought you had binge eating disorder your whole life. But like actually like, you only would have met criteria like this part of your life. And that's in the context of all of this. Lifelong restriction and starvation, or to you know, to say like, hey, look, you know, like we can actually put a name to some of the things that you're doing and as imperfect as our diagnostic system is an I think it is significantly eft up and imperfect. There's something very powerful about being able to say like, hey, this is no this isn't maybe this isn't about me being a bad person or being bad at dieting or being bad at even having an eating disorder. Right. Like, I I don't know. How many times I've heard like I can't even get an eating disorder. Right. It. Maybe it's not about that. Maybe like, we're just calling it by the wrong name, you know. And and that like clinical moment like you said, it can be so healing. And you know, I have many I would. I'd say probably at least twenty five percent of the folks in the study that responded to my flyer for a typical interacts here. Because like they looked at the flyer it listed some symptoms. They're like, hey, that's me. I'm gonna call this lady. Like, so those people like they came to my study, and they thought they had binge eating disorder, and after the very long in-depth gonna diagnostic interview. They're like it's like actually like you haven't had that. And I and I don't say that to like demonize pathologist binge eating disorder more so than any other eating disorder. I'm trying to say it that like folks are very confused. About about the behave because diet culture is so pervasive. And it says, hey, if you eat a Donut, you're having a sweet binge or if you, you know, if you eat a bag of Eminem watching TV, you know, or whatever like if you eat ice cream out of the container while watching TV show like you're out of control. That's binge eating you the problem because we have these like, cultural like myths in our head. I think people are walking around like a thinking that they have disorders that. They don't end like be not getting help for the disorders that they do. Let's such a good point. I had this like positive note that I kinda wanted to just bring up. So I said there were two women that hadn't received treatment. And so I left him out of that treatment delay. And there are actually at the beginning of this day. They were three women and one of them like so I saw her for her first interview. And then I see her like six months later. Right. And so I at her second interview, I was talking with her. And she's like, oh, yeah. I'm in treatment. Now. That's like, okay. That's cool. As like when did did you get when did that start because you know, she's in her early thirties when I saw her the first time, she was severely restricted going long periods without food and very very much under eating and she was like, oh, well, you know, I got help about two weeks after our first interview. And I was like really why? You know? And she said, well when we were meeting, and I was talking to you about what I was eating. You told me that I was eating a level of food that would be consistent with anorexia. And as like, okay. And she's like, so I called somebody. And so I'm not doing an interventional study like I'm not trying to get people in treatment. And and I also really like this is also it's like per the observational. So this doesn't mess up my results like if you wanna go get treatment in this had an impact on you find like there's no control group. But what that says to me is that like a small acknowledgement that what someone's doing could be problematic could have a really tremendous impact on that person. All I said was hey, you're not eating a lot. What you're eating is really like a small amount of food, and maybe you should get help. I didn't even actually say maybe I should get help. I all I just said is, hey, you're eating is consistent with someone who has interacts and that was enough for this person who had. Been dealing with this for however long it was enough to give her that extra push to like go out and seek treatment and actually get it. But I'm just thinking of like that that moment that we have with clients when we have the chance to like give a diagnosis or like a firm that someone's eating is not enough that could have like a real impact on their trajectory moving forward. That's incredible. That is such a positive note to end on. I think because I think a lot of clinicians are listening to this. And also a lot of people who maybe have never had that kind of allegation in their own lives. And you know, maybe we can give that to people here through that Stu just to recognize that maybe what you've always thought as binge eating or as eating enough really isn't. And I think that's pretty likely living in diet culture. You know, for anyone who has a disordered relationship with food and thinks maybe it's falling on the side of quote, unquote, too much pretty much everyone. I see who thinks they're eating quote unquote too much is actually not eating enough. Whether it's on the flip side of a binge or whether they're categorizing something as a binge that actually is just sustaining eating. So I think this is very important to bring to light. Oh my God. I could talk to you forever. This is so fascinating. And I like, yeah. We'll have to have another episode down the line where we dig into lots more of this research. Once you have have more of it published and ready to go and stuff to awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much and tell us where people can find you. And learn more about your work. I I wish I had it right now. I'm just on Facebook at here Harrop. I don't have a website or anything, but you can feel free to look me up at Aaron Harrop it g mail dot com. And I am still recruiting for folks that have had this experience of restricting self-starvation or excessive compensation, but your body weight is either considered not low enough for quote normal or quote, higher weight. So yeah, feel free. I'm sure there'll be many many folks listening who will fall into that camp. So definitely want to encourage them to reach out. And we'll put that in the show notes. Your Email on your Facebook and stuff so people can find you and connect great. Thank you. Thank you so much errands such a pleasure talking with you. Likewise. So that's our show. Thanks again. So much to Aaron hair up for being here on this episode, and thanks to you for listening. If you're looking for some guidance from me to get started on your own anti-itch journey grabbed my free audio guides seven simple strategies for finding peace and freedom with food. Just go to Kristie Harrison dot com slash strategies to get it. That's Christie Harrison dot com slash strategies. 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