1 Episode results for "War Malcolm"
Malcolm Gladwell on the Bomber Mafia
"You're listening to an airwave media. Podcast design the kind of financial future that they've liked to have will frankly. It's overwhelming which is why dave and andrew from the investing for beginners. Podcast are here to help. We decode the hard parts of investing and the stock market. So that you can reach your goals and create the financial future. you deserve. Give us a listen at the investing for beginners. Podcast on apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever. You're listening right now. Hi i'm ben. Mathis and welcome to kick ass news. Most military thinkers in the years leading up to world war two saw the airplane as an afterthought but a small band of idealistic strategists known as the bomber mafia asked what if precision bombing could cripple the enemy and make war far less lethal in contrast the bombing of tokyo on. The deadliest. night of the war was the brainchild of general curtis lemay whose brutal pragmatism and scorched earth tactics in japan costs thousands of civilian lives but may have spared by averting a planned invasion in the bomber mafia bestselling author. Malcolm glad well asks. Was it worth it and today. I'm happy welcome malcolm back to the podcast to discuss the stranger than fiction story of a dutch genius and his homemade computer a band of brothers and central alabama of british psychopath and pyro maniacal chemists at harvard to examine one of the greatest moral challenges in modern american history plus malcolm talks about his heart wrenching. Visit to the museum. Dedicated to victims of the tokyo firebombings his revealing dinner with the top brass of the us air force and why he's making a big bet on audio books with his latest offering. Coming up with malcolm glad well injustice moment glad well is the author of six new york times bestsellers including talking to strangers david and goliath out liars blink and the tipping point glad well as co founder and president of pushkin industries an audio book and podcast production company behind his latest book. Which is out in print and in a wonderful new audio book. It's called the bomber. Mafia a dream temptation and the longest night of the second world. War malcolm welcome to the podcast. Thank you to have been chugging. What before we get to the book. I know from the last time we spoke that you preferred writing routine who had sort of been disrupted by the pandemic. Have you returned to writing cafes yet. I have the cafes in the little town where i live have reopened so i can return to my favorite haunts wonderful. I love this new audio book. By the way. I i really enjoy listening to the bomber mafia. You have pioneered the art of the immersive audio book. The audio versions of your books really i think have more in common with your podcast revisionist history than with your typical audio book. Take us behind the scenes. What all went into making the audio version of the bomber mafia. Well you know to do. I did what with this. What i did with talking to strangers which is to do a real good audio book. You have to start with the intention to do an audio book in other words every interview you do. You've got to collect high-quality tape. You know you can't just put your iphone down on the table in front of the person you're interviewing you. If you're intending to use the voices of the people you're talking to in the finished product you've got to make sure sound good and then it goes from there. You look for for this book. We searched through all these archives. Air force archives military archives archives at universities. Trying to fine tape with the people that we were talking about It was you know. If i'm gonna spend as i do this book chapters talking about a guy named curtis lemay. I want you to hear his voice because he was you hear his voice. You kinda get who he is. You know you And there's a knees numerous examples of that and then the end of the book describes this incredibly devastating and moving event the bombing of tokyo. And you it's important to hear voices of the people who were victimized by that attack so it's on a multiple minimum levels you let your storytelling guided by the kind of sound you can find. Yeah yeah and it's just wonderful to listen to. I'm a big fan of the podcast as well so it really does sound like. I'm listening to a long firm formed version of your podcast which is wonderful. Now you've always had better than average sales of your audio books. I wonder can you see a day when audio overtakes print and e books already happened in the case of talking to strangers talking to strangers has sold more in audio book form than it has in print form so i think that has arrived That was something we very much had in. Mind him my expectation. Was that if you produced a quality audio book an as you say. These audiobooks are are patterned after my podcast. So it's the same production levels. It's the same team i mean. I took all the people on my podcast and brought them over to work on the book and my feeling was that. If are feeling a pushkin was if you do that and create something worth listening to. You'll sell more audiobooks will print books. And that's exactly what's happened with my last book talking to strangers. Yeah that's fantastic and like you mentioned talking about podcasts. This new book the bomber mafia is kind of something that grew out of several episodes of your podcast. It's a fascinating story. I in fact you actually confess in here to having a fascination with bombs and bombings from childhood to this day you say you have tons of books aerial bombings on your shelf. So now i suppose that i put you on the fbi's radar what. What is your interest in bombs and particularly aerial bombings. Will i tell the story. Might you know my dad is. English was english and he grew up in kent in england which is called bomb alley. His was the the the german warplanes were flying to bomb. London in nineteen forty flew over his part of kent and he would as a kid would slow was told by by his parents to sleep underneath his bed case the bombs fell and you know will protect gave some kind of measure protection and when he was about five years old German bomb actually landed in the in my grandparents. Backyard didn't explode thankfully and that was one of the stories i grew up with. Was you know my father's encounter with with a german bomb you know. It's certain things that kind of sticking your imagination. And i i i've been fascinated by war and bombs and airplanes ever since Yeah that's one of the things that's always struck me about britain's as just how much the second world war is a part of their identity and their national character even today when that generation has largely dying off there are just so many memorials and museums to the war people still talk about the blitz and even the entertainment of that era people like vera lynn. Who sang all of these wartime love songs. Yeah she's still very much a fixture of the culture. There was the case with your dad. And growing up in your family was talk of the blitz and the war over there a common theme that came up in discussion. Oh yeah so. My father was born in thirty two so he was Yet but he was a child during the war and it was permanently imprinted on his consciousness of that entire generation. I mean i grew up with my father telling stories from the war and with People up my father's generation and you're absolutely right the british to this day you walk into a british bookstore. You will see more books on world war two than you will ever see. An american books are so it. Is you know it was defining event for that country It was a test of their own of their courage and resilience and and they passed it and they've never forgotten that correctly. Never forgotten that So yeah i remember my islet dingoes a child my dad would take to the to the beaches still see the fortifications that were put there in anticipation of a possible german invasion. I mean it was. It's still very much a part of english. Life english culture now the bomber mafia. Actually an american story. I guess you would say and it's something of a forgotten chapter in the twentieth century military history the history of world war two. I wasn't even aware of this story. So how did you first learn about it. You know. I hate to say that i don't remember. I think it was because like so many things. I knew where i started. I started because i was in japan. And i went to the museum which was commemorated. The the american firebombing of tokyo in the spring of nineteen forty five and i just started working backwards from that event reading and poking around and discovered this whole kind of story story well known by the way to military stories but just not to the rest of us of this conflict during the second world war between two schools of thought about how best to use bombers in wartime and one group was this group called the bomber mafia who were the idealists who thought that there was a way to us bombers that would reform war that would claim far fewer civilian casualties And they pursued this dream through the nineteen thirties. Well into the second world war before the you know for the dream kind of method the test of reality and one of the things that you point out in this book is just the vast difference between how airplanes were used in the first world war versus the second. Of course i can think of the film footage of the dog fights up in the air and world war one and then world war. Two planes were used very differently. They really had a more centralized role on the battlefield. What was the key factor that revolutionized how we used planes and more well in one you know. Planes are still toys no military leader in the first world war senior military took airpower seriously. It was a it was a side show and you know if you were dropping a bomb in the first war you put a bomb inside of you gave the bomb to the pilot in his little one seater plane. He flew up and then he leaned out the over the side of the plane and dropped it by hand. That's how you that's how you bomb a war like so that was the you know. Imagine what are the odds. First of all that bombs a lot of damage and to you're not gonna hit anything or you. I mean so what happens really in the late nineteen thirties. Is that very quickly. Aviation technology grows up and you go from planes. Being these little contraptions made out of canvas and wood to something that really resembles the modern. You know the b twenty nine bomber by the time it comes along in nineteen forty three. It looks a lot like what we think. Planes look like today so you know. By the time the second world war is is underway. Aviation technology has matured to something that resembles a modern state. And that means all kinds of things it means all of a sudden airpower matters. It means you can do a lot of damage from the air. It means that you can fly really high for long periods of time means you can evade defences means you can carry you. Know hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of tons of bombs a single bombing attack. I mean just go on from there. The kinds of things that happened in the second war where entire cities were obliterated by bombing campaigns. We're a function of of these innovations in aviation technology that had been made over the previous ten years and one of those inventions. That you talk about is the norton. Bombsite you describe. It really is sort of an analog computer when a win into this device yes so if you think about as simple physics problem. Imagine you're in a car and you're going thirty miles an hour and i'm asking you to throw a tennis ball out the window into a garbage can. That is a really really hard physics problem right. You've got to somehow adjust for. The fact of the garbage can is stationary. And you're in a moving car there's going to be. You have to throw the ball with just the right force. Just the right speed. I mean on and on and on most of us. I mean steph. Curry could do that. Most of us could not do that. Now imagine now dropping a bomb from an airplane. That's twenty thousand feet in the air going three miles an hour and there's hahnemann our wins and the temperature is freezing cold where you drop it. And hot and muggy on the ground and the target is obscured by clouds. And you're under attack from enemy fighters man go on and on someone screaming in your ear. Now i'm asking you to drop a bomb with accuracy fry under those conditions. It's impossible and that was the thing going to the second world war. There was no expectation that a bomb dropped from an airplane would hit its target. None as a famous study in england down of bombing accuracy in the nineteen early nineteen forties and their conclusion. Is that most bombs. They were dropping. Were landing within seven miles of the target. I mean it's absurd right. The americans invent this device called the bomb bombsite which is an answer to that problem and they they believe they have solved the physics problem by coming up with this insanely complicated. Fifty five pound mechanical device called the norden bombsite invented by a crazy central dutch genius named carl norden and the ideas. You could train bombardier for six months in how to manipulate all of the bells and whistles and police and gyroscopes and whatever this analog computer and if bombardier knew what he was doing you drop a bomb accurately from twenty thousand feet and it did take a lot of skill to do that. And they were trained as you mentioned at this aerial tactical school in alabama. The people who founded it kind of became known originally derisively as the bomber mafia. But they embrace that name and eventually There's sort of this. Legend associated with the bomber mafia and how they realized that precision bombing could really revolutionize how we fight wars. Can you recall that story. Yes so this group is a group of men pilots. Thirty young men their way off in the middle of nowhere in central alabama aside montgomery maxwell air force base and they are obsessed with the potential of the bomber. The bomber is brand new idea. A plane designed to fly fast and high and carry enormous payloads and do damage to the enemy and their idea is that if they can successfully solve the problem of how to drop a bomb accurately then all of a sudden they become the most important thing. You know lavar all of a sudden. You don't need infantry. You don't need tanks. you'll need warships. You don't need anything except bombers. Because their theory is look i can send a bomb a bomber. That's flying way above so high in the sky and so fast no fighter jet can catch it a no anti-aircraft gun can bring it down. And if i didn't drop bombs absolute accuracy. Why do i need anyone else. If i if. I want the germans to surrender. I could just send some bombers into berlin. Take out the reichstag take out. You know the power plants. Takeout some bridges. And what are they gonna do. They're gonna have to surrender right. That's the dream. Yeah in the bomber. Mafia was really way ahead of their time and helped to shape modern tactical warfare but even beyond that they had these loftier dreams i mean. Is it fair to say that they even believe that precision bombing would make the world a better place or at least a safer place on some level sure because they had just come out of The experience of the first world war where there was this unbelievable bloodshed carnage on the battlefields of europe. And they were determined not to repeat that they thought this gotta be a better way for nations to fight with each other. We do. We really have to kill off an entire generation just to resolve some dispute so their notion was look if we can drop bombs accurately first of all. We don't need to fight land wars nor do we need to destroy entire cities to make a point to go back to that example. I gave you a berlin. You've two choices. You could reduce berlin to rubble and kill a couple hundred thousand people as you do or you can take out their power plants in there Military factories in their bridges. And maybe kill. I don't know two hundred people as opposed to two hundred thousand people and have the same result. So that's what they mean. When when i say they were fired by a moral vision. That was the vision that we can conduct war that has the same result but but claims a fraction of the lives And they were sort of controversial in their day think. Several of them said that they would probably have landed in jail. If any of the higher ups at the pentagon had known what they were doing at one point they were doing theoretical experiments to figure out what it would take basically incapacitate new york city. So it it's interesting because you know what you said a moment ago about kind of where airpower factored into our us military strategy the fact that we didn't even have an air force. It was a subgroup of the army and air power was even up to the probably the early days of world war one was still viewed as a novelty among the military brass. They met a lot of resistance to this idea from the. Us military establishment didn't they. Oh absolutely i mean you had to have been not just a pilot and not just kind of passionate advocate of airpower but also a believer in technology. I mean the bar. Mafia take a look at things like the norden bombsite and they they use it as a kind of jumping off point. They see the potential of it because they're so dedicated to the idea of airplanes as the future of warfare. No one else has that. If you're a tank commander or Military general came up. You know went to west point and fought in world war one and you know in your uncle and your grandfather and your great grandfather and your father. All did the served in the same way in the army. You don't have that same set of beliefs that same passionate attachment to this new technology. You think what war is is jeeps and tanks and soldiers marching on the ground with with with rifle strapped to their backs so the borrow mafia do one point move. They were based in virginia near the power center of american. The american military. And they're like we don't want to be in the mix wanna be out by ourselves. We want to have the freedom to dream. And they moved to the furthest point on the map culturally. They can from virginia which is from the washington dc area which is southern alabama. We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back with more when we return. In just a minute. I'm reproduce mon- film critic for newsday and i'm christine minds our culture critic and co author of how to be fine together. We host movie therapy with rafer and christian in each episode. We read letters from real people in real quandries. Emily says dear rafer and kristen. I'm raising a kid. Who is to put it bluntly weird then. We dispense a bit of questionable advice. I'm so bad at dating. no. I'm the worse data a god. I'm just horrible at it. And finally we prescribe movies and tv shows to help our listeners. Through whatever ails like the d'appel ganger character. This kind of oh. She was terrible. It's part advice. Show part watchlist. Plenty of empathy and lots of laughs. Did my wife write this under the dam. Katie listen to movie therapy with referring kristen wherever you get your favorite shows. That's movie therapy with rafer and christian troubled time to tell you this. Almost everything that happens in politics today has happened before has been debated before maybe in slightly different forms on my history can beat up your politics podcast since two thousand six. I've been examining the history behind today's politics and adding layers of context to some of today's debates and telling some great stories by bruce carlson. Join me at www dot. My history can beat up your politics dot com or wherever you get your podcasts apple. Podcasts wherever else you get your podcast from learn how george washington an fdr supported vaccines in their time. Warren harding or ulysses grant took stands on racial justice. John and abigail adams of what they had to say about free speech and the press wareham. Lincoln had to say on that. What the conspiracy theories that had to be debated during the debate over the constitution. Where things more partisan or less partisan in the past were balanced on my history can beat up your politics so i promise you won't be infuriated even if you don't agree. We take a balanced approach so listen. Www dot my history can beat up your politics dot com and it's interesting because the they didn't just meet resistance from the us military but also from the british military leaders in world war two up to and including winston churchill himself a what was churchill and his teams preferred approach to aerial bombing and the resistance to this idea. Churchill and senior british brass. The bar mafia were nuts. They they just thought this whole thing is nonsense. There's no way they can hit where they can hit. There's no way it's all a dream. What the germ. The british thought was. The only way to use airpower was to flatten your enemies cities. You go in you drop as many bombs as you can. You don't worry about where they're gonna land you just figure if you drop enough of them they will do such damage and kill so many people that your enemy will surrender so they have then off are all about precision and using the smallest amount of force possible. The british are about the opposite. They're like who cares about precision. Who cares about you know surgical strikes who cares. Just go in there and like open up the bombay. Just let it all. Go and don't worry about where it's landing just. If you have enough planes in enough bombs you'll do so much damage to something. The trinity will give up. All of this begs the question. I wonder how much of the british preference for area bombing or morale bombing as they called. It might have just been straight up designed to inflict maximum pain and get a little bit of revenge for the blitz. You think yeah no. It's still in fact Bomber harris who was the head of the british bombing campaign kind of arthur harris was quite explicit about that that he thought that the british art to bomb german cities to rubble for out of revenge. For what the germans did to british cities in the nineteen forties critique that has been made many times a british bombing campaign. It was not motivated by some kind of sophisticated strategic analysis. They didn't hasten the end of the war with their wholesale attacks on german cities they probably prolonged the war. They were motivated by an emotional desire to get even well. I wanna talk about the two figures who loom very large in this book. One of them has hayward hansel. Who i i. Guess was sort of the bomber mafia true believer and the other is curtis. Lemay who some people may be familiar with from your podcasts and he was featured on several episodes of revisionist history. In fact even confessed to having a mild obsession with lemay Can you give me a contrast of these two men. They are as different as two men can possibly be. Hansel is this visionary intellectual a lover of broadway tunes of wrote poetry. His favorite novel was done quixote. He comes from a long line of american southern military's great grandfather. I think was a confederate general And he's a true believer in this dream. The mafia had of of using precision bombing to reform war and he carries this dream with him to the very end of the war and sacrifices his career for this dream. You know he's When he would fly home from bombing missions over europe he would sing broadway tunes to his men over. The plane's intercom flavor of what he was like the maze. The opposite the as like a working class kid from columbus ohio who always had a cigar mouth who was the most ruthless unsentimental cut and dried thad. Almost nothing thought that the only way to wage war was to be as brutal and ferocious as you could possibly be had no time for the intellectual niceties and dreams of power mafia thought. They were you know. what did he have. Famous phrase. Used swivelled chaired intellectuals he just was again very identifiably american type. But i feel like you can go down and divide famous american militaries into these two camps. There's a there are these kind of intellectual dreamer idealistic warriors. Then there. The the patents. The you know the the sherman's the and lamaze in that letter camp. He's he's he's ruthless as you. He's one of the most brilliant airpower tacticians of the second world war right. The berlin airlift and but before that the tactics that were used by bomber campaigns over europe all devised by curtis lemay. I mean he is. If you talked to anyone from that generation they will tell you. He was the airmen of his generation. He was like. I imagine talking to someone who played in the nba in the nineteen nineties. They would say you know. Michael jordan was what basketball was if you were between nine pilot in one thousand nine hundred forty three in europe. Curtis lemay was your michael jordan People would follow him anywhere but he end hansel were just diametrically opposed on how we ought to use these extraordinary bombers being produced in those years and they didn't like each other and i think we can even be stronger than that and i think the may would have had contempt for france and they have showed the book is all about a showdown between the two of them. At the end of the war in guam and It is one of the kind of most morally consequential moans in a war. Yeah and they ran into some major setbacks in the bombings over germany and then later in their attempts to rent precision strikes over japan. At that point. I guess lemay was still not sold on precision air bombings but was assigned them and kind of with pursuing some effort to I guess bomb. Japan from india which is not easy. Because you have to cross the hump for the himalayas. Why didn't precision bombing turned the war in the way that hansel and the bomber mafia envisioned. What were the problems will. There are any number of problems but fundamentally if you were using the bombsite on a perfectly clear day under blue skies on a testing ground into utah desert. It worked like a charm. The minute you put it in real world conditions where it might be clouds to see the target to hit it with norden bombsite. There's no radars. Nineteen you know in the early forties the real world. Just clouds can't see it can't hit it real world there's wins they discover the the gulfstream In one thousand nine hundred. Forty and forty four over the high skies of japan to gulfstream is a meteorological condition that produces wins at high altitudes in excess of two hundred miles. An hour can't drop a bomb from a plane that's being blown sideways. Two hundred miles an hour right. It's just impossible. And then when you add to that you're getting attacked by enemy fighters people screaming in your ear there. So you're supposed to your some twenty two year old with a high school education. Who is asked to manipulate. An incredibly complicated analog computer and i i add in ten. Different unknown variables clouds wins anti-aircraft fire enemy jet pilots. People screaming at you the fact that you're terrified by the way right bullets are whizzing past you as you're trying to do that. I mean just go on and so in the real world you know the trying to reproduce the precision of the norden bombsite as it was used in training sessions was impossible and so they think they can hit stuff and a candidate that stuff and yet hayward hansel never really gave up on the bomber mafia dream and he resisted resorting to area bombing right up until he was basically sacked or transferred to some position in the boonies on one hand is strategies. Didn't work very well in practice. And yet he's still stuck to his principles in this belief in a better way to wage. War so i wonder how do we assess him as he a failure or is he a hero. Well he's don quixote i mean. It's no accident. That's his favorite novel. Because he is the night he is the then. The naive gallant idealistic night tilt windmills and takes up impossible causes. He was someone who believes that the moral case for trying to reform more was so strong that you had an obligation to persist even in the face of overwhelming odds. And if you'd asked him in nineteen forty four. Why do you keep doing this. Even though it doesn't work he told you it will work. Eventually an at that point will be worthwhile and he's right. It does work eventually accepted the eventually nineteen ninety not nineteen forty four. He's fifty years too early You know he would take the invention of gps in a million other things to bring the bomber mafia dream to reality. But i think it's important that we recognize him for his courage and arrow ism moral courage and heroism. That does nothing with pursuing ajilon better world in the face of contrary evidence. I mean we need more people like that. I think and as you already mentioned curtis lemay had no such hesitation about using carpet bombing To paraphrase dr strangelove. How did lemay come to love the firebomb. He came to love defy because if precision bombing doesn't work. Then what do you do as a practical solution. The answer is you can't just selectively targets that you've identified and think are of high strategic value. You gotta take out everything. You can't eat anything. And what was the best way to tackle everything in japan. Well japanese cities were made of wood. Houses are very close to get a wooden tar paper. They were ten boxes so lemay takes this special new material explosive dot explosive incendiary device that had been developed explicitly to burn down japanese houses. Scott napalm and he takes he's the first guy to really exploit naples. Napalm potential napalm was the greatest incendiary device ever invented and lemay says okay. That's my problem. i'll name it anything. I'll just drop lots and lots and lots of napalm on japanese cities didn't matter where it lands. Just start a fire in the fire will do all the damage. And that's exactly. Does he burns down over the course of the spring and summer of nineteen forty-five he burns down sixty six japanese cities one of the most extraordinary acts of Destruction in the history of war and as you mentioned earlier you visited a museum in tokyo that pays tribute to those who died in the firebombings. it's a funny thing because there are so many memorials to those who were lost in the bomb attacks on hiroshima and nagasaki. Even here in the us. We have memorials to those but strangely you say that it's not so much the case with the firebombings over tokyo and other cities in japan. It's not even the city center. It's kind of tucked away in this nondescript offices building on the outskirts of town what do you make of that. What what does that say about the japanese and where that event figures into their history says everyone. Everyone was very anxious to forget about this episode in the war on both sides there. Americans don't want to talk about the fact that we burn down sixty six japanese cities in space of three months and the japanese would rather not talk about it either. They would like to put behind them as well. Not everything of consequence in history gets memorialized. and so you can go to tokyo and you can see. Grand monuments to everything of importance had happened in their country's history except for the events that summer which just got a been are consigned to what looks like a dentist office and he's tokyo and as you mentioned a moment ago. We now live in an era. When hayward hansol's vision of precision bombing has come to fruition with technology like the stealth bomber and drones the footage of the smart bomb dropping down a chimney as one of the most iconic images of operation desert storm. But now that we're able to do the kind of things that he dreamt of it also opens up a whole other bundle of questions even with all the precision in the world. A symmetrical warfare from vietnam to iraq and afghanistan still requires boots on the ground and lives loss. But even more than that. There's the moral question of drone bombings. Maybe eventually without a human at the controls and you say in here that the more precise the bomber the more you're tempted to use it. I wonder where do you suppose those issues would fit within handles moral framework i cancel would have said on balance. We're better off in a world where we can hit while we wanna hit. He would accept the risk of that makes waging war more acceptable and say that's a small price to pay for the fact that we can put the days when we leveled entire cities behind us. You know if you think about it if there were to be a kind of full scale conventional war between china and the united states. we're both sides. We're sending bombers over each other's countries. Neither side would level entire cities. It's not gonna happen anymore. Just not the way wars fought. And i think i think cancel would say. That's that's what progress looks like on a lighter note or a little bit of a lighter note you got to have dinner with the air force chief of staff and hang out with all of his generals what sounds like a pretty interesting group of what was that experience like. What did you learn from them. I got to know the previous a guy named General goldfine and then gentleman who's replaced by general brown Midway through writing this book. And i got to know both to the outgoing and the incoming chief of staff of the air force and i found them both credibly. Impressive people I came away with really renewed respect for the american military. I mean these are people who understand the moral dimensions of what they do who are steeped in history of their service. Who are committed to keeping america safe. I mean i could go on good general goofy just before he left Invited me to dinner at his house at the house on. Fort myers just across the potomac from Capital which is where the head of the air force lives on a street. We're all these top military live. And i had dinner at his house and with his wife and then afterwards we had drinks in his backyard and he invited over. You know the vice chair of the joint chiefs and couple of other senior air force guys in We had a conversational. Never forget just to kind of casual conversation about what it means to be in charge of the world's most powerful air force you know. It's just a was really an amazing moment. I'll never forget it. Sounds like an incredible experience. Well i mentioned at the top of this book is sort of the vanguard of a larger effort by your company pushkin industries. You're really going all in on immersive audio books before we go. Can you tease any of your other audio offerings to come. We got a million coming for example. We have one coming up with a pulse. Simon singer-songwriter based on and we begin with about forty hours of conversations with him and have combined that with with him playing and talking and arguing and we combine now with historical tape and produced and all kinds of theater housing and interviews with other prominent musicians and the result is something. That's kind of amazing That should be national. That's almost unknown but we got we got a big pipeline of stuff coming well again. This book is called the bomber mafia. A dream a temptation and the longest night of the second world war. Malcolm glad well thanks for talking with me. Thank you ben. it's been really fun. Thanks again to malcolm. Glad well for coming on the podcast border. His new book the bomber mafia. A dream attempt tation and the longest night of the second world war on amazon audible or wherever books are sold. And i especially encourage you to listen to it as an audio book. It's very very well produced in really immersed as you in the story. Follow malcolm on twitter at glad. Well if you enjoyed today's episode then subscribe and get a five star rating on apple podcasts. Detailed reviews are the best way for new listeners. To discover the show follow us on facebook at at kick ass news pod and email me with your comments questions and suggestions at comments at kick ass news dot com kick-ass news is a part of the airwave media. Podcast network visit airwave media dot com and check out some of our other shows like food with mark pitman movie therapy investing for beginners. My history can beat up your politics and many others for now though. I'm ben mathis. And thanks for listening to kick ass. Airwave media podcast.