20 Episode results for "Waldman"

WKPWP Interview Classic - (1-21-16) Sean "X-Pac" Waltman talks Reigns push, wrestlers on social media, Presidential election, more

The Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast

2:52:22 hr | 3 months ago

WKPWP Interview Classic - (1-21-16) Sean "X-Pac" Waltman talks Reigns push, wrestlers on social media, Presidential election, more

"If you'd like to hear this show without ads and plugs interrupting. There's one thing you can do right now to make that happen. And that has become a pow torch vip member. He got about a dozen other podcasts. The week i hosted that our vip exclusive and get the way color potions and podcast during the week with the ads and plugs removed all on a separate feed exclusively for vip members plus tons of other podcasts. That are vip exclusive access to our full archives of podcast. Dating back to two thousand four which includes post pavee roundtables dating back to two thousand four. Also access to our full archives thousands of podcasts. Over fifteen hundred back issues of pro wrestling torch weekly newsletter. That started all at score website and more checkup full details. At t w torch vip info dot com. That's p. w. torture vip info dot com to get full details and then jump our sign up form. It's mobile friendly. Desktop friendly in two minutes you can be member. She'll support for us and we'll give you a lot of return including a streamlined. Listening experience on your iphone or android device with the ads unplugged removed. Go check it out tortured. Vip info dot com now. Pw torch and spreaker bring you the wade keller. Pro wrestling podcast. It's time for wade's interview. With one of pro wrestling's newsmakers. Five years ago sean x. Pot waldman join me for over two and a half hours so a wide ranging interview that concluded a some thoughts on them making a murderer documentary and also the current. Us presidential election at the time. Little did we know what we were in for right. What a what a five percents. Also we off with a lot of wrestling talk including roman reigns the potential wrestlemainia thirty. Two lineups wrestlers use of social media. And whether saying kay fehb is dead makes any sense and much more. We took phone calls throughout the show on a wide range of topics. This aired live originally on january twenty first two thousand sixteen. Enjoy the show. Sean waldman one of the absolute best podcast guests out there until enjoy this alive. Welcome to the. P w torch live. Cast i m wade keller editor and publisher of pro wrestling torch weekly newsletter since one thousand nine hundred eighty seven and also p w torch dot com and m torch dot com covering the world of pro wrestling and mixed martial arts. It is thursday january twenty first two thousand sixteen and it is interview thursday and materially. We'll be joined by my guest for today. And that is xbox sean waldman and he is one of our favorite guests that is ever on the program our guest we always have a lot of phone calls and a lot of listeners when he joins the program and so we're going to talk to them about all kinds of stuff and you can start filling up the phone lines right now at six four six seven two one nine eight two eight that six four six seven two one nine eight two eight and We'd love to Take your calls and talk about various subjects going on in the World wrestling and and i think we might talk about non wrestling stuff too. Sometimes when shawna's on the program things tend to to go that direction if you did. Listen yesterday by the way Eugene nick nick. Dinsmore who wrestled as eugene was on the People towards life cast with pat mcneil. And i encourage you to check that out last week. Matt hardy was my guest on the program. He talked about to download our free apps. All right with no further ado. Let's go ahead and bring on my longtime friend known him since the nineteen eighties way back in ancient history. Sean won't xbox fox sean. Welcome back to the life. Cast good to talk to you. I'm doing good. I remember when i heard your voice. More than just on the live cast. So it's always good to catch up with you besides all this all this newfangled technology were that people communicate with where they don't actually hear voices. Yeah remember when we actually used to talk on the phone. Yeah in when you didn't get everyone you didn't get pissed off at somebody for calling you. Who was a friend you'd like you didn't text me. I didn't say that. I wanted to talk on the phone. Like sometimes my phone rings. And i get angry. I'm like who is what what can't be handled by you or is that something i told you you actually told me. But it's universal. I think i think a lot of people feel that way. Now they're just like okay. This better need to be something. That's on the phone but fortunately Podcasting has not gone to the text format. So it's great to have you on. Yeah really we. Actually something needs to be done about this. Because i mean we're really losing touch with each other as as as people. I don't know i mean it's it's that following like it's really hard to have that bond mean when we when we say elliott talked to so and so today we didn't. We shot him a text. They touch to this back and talk to anybody and i think we've probably talk we. That's wrong word. We probably communicate with people more often more people more often in different ways. But it's more shallow like well. I chatted with somebody on facebook right then. Someone attacked or a dm on twitter. But yeah it's not the same thing as as Conversing so how are things going for you. These days in terms of wrestling wrestling appearances. What if what are you doing to keep yourself busy for people who don't follow you on twitter and aren't really aware of what what you do these days to kind of keep keep yourself immersed in the industry which i know you do well I mean obviously we. I think we talked to them about my injury. Correct yes in detail terms. And i had there was a i think at the time. The last time we talked was a lot of uncertainty. Yeah and So i don't really have time to get surgery and all that and so Just in the last couple of weeks. And i haven't missed any matches. Yeah so i mean. Even when i was really real really shutting down there i was still going doing matches. I went to england. You know two weeks over there Thankfully every you know the talent there is so good and they they and the guys. I worked with here like since i got hurt. Have really taken care of me as far as watching out for the injury but I just rehabbing it on my own right now. And a couple of techniques. I learned kind of some crazy life dr frankenstein techniques on how to heal tendons and So i'm back in the gym man actually looking pretty good. I'd like to thank him back on that side. It's there's other muscles that are You know that are better compensating for bacteria and everything but yeah Anyways what i'm trying to get at is like i'm not feeling one hundred percent but like a good eighty at least. Yeah you know so. And in which you know i don't mean to say well i mean i do mean to sound like this. Eighty percent of me. isn't that bad. Good good yup. Yup go 'cause. I still do like i can still do every. All nightside signature moves my whole repertoire. Three three more than roman reigns but no. I'm i'm sorry. I should have done that. That was cheap little ever. He's got three not too so Hey sean let me let me a cut to our early show sponsorship acknowledgement and. Then when we come back we'll roll with phone calls and if somebody wants to drop us an email you've got a topic but you're shy. You wanna talk to sean. But you want to email him. You know like we talked about at the beginning of the show. If you want to communicate through words rather than voice you can certainly do that. Our email is peachable. Utah live cast at g. l. dot com or on their live at nine eastern on thursday january twenty. First two thousand sixteen. We got people lined up on the phone banks to if you want to give us a call you can join them in line at six four six seven two one nine eight hundred eight when we come back from the from our sponsors. Sean waldman is my guest for interview. Thursday hold on. We'll be back in just a moment harley. Remember the days. When women's wrestling matches were relegated to the bid card dumping ground and treated like uncle horrified intermission. You mean the era when he was only men in the top spots in the main fads getting the biggest matches of unite. Yeah vaguely seriously. While we might have a long way to go free really have come a long way baby and that's why we started grid and glitter comcast covering the best in the world of women's wrestling from the horse. Women at wwe to the goddesses of stardom and everyone in between each tuesday. Emily myself and our team of guest. Correspondence talk that best matches and the biggest news in women's wrestling plas interviews deep dies in discussions about everything for media representation to gear to women in behind the scenes ropes. Just search p w torch the podcast app of your choice. Subscribe or listen on. Demand can see the entire. Pw torch david schedule at w. torch recast dot com. All right. We're back with sean. Waldman park used to be no one. Sean is the lightning kid way back in the day i assume x six pack is pretty much help people refer to you if not sean a lot of people still do two three kid really where i'm at. Yeah yeah independent. Like like honestly a lot of a lot of latino fans Remember me as one two three kid or six six puck. Why is that. i don't know okay. I don't know. I think a lot of to acid generation to more than anything to you know But you know surprisingly enough. Like i still get one two three kid. Oh lot. wow that's cool. that's cool i mean. I didn't six more than six sure. Wow so yeah the one two three kid era bigger than the nwa air when it comes to help people see you what they identify with like. You're sean callisto. Upset alberto del rio. And they're talking about this big upset. I don't think like that will ever happen on a wrestling. Show where people who either have gone back and watched history or live through it. Don't think of your match with razor. Ramon you know that is the most famous upset in national television pro wrestling history. So every time something like that happens like callisto. A couple of months ago. I think of you and razor ramon and i think a lot of fans even though somehow on the countdown on on the undeb w network It i think it came in second or third to what al hind berry but berry candy. Well it was just a true with me. Why certain people there are certain people. 'cause there's certain people in the in the company that that really really don't care for me but they can't do anything about except for little except for a little passive aggressive stuff like that. Or you know. I'm like i'll watch some and they'll keep you know how kind of like Which i thought was bs when i When i saw it happen. And i noticed it right away. When they would to the kevin owens stat saw on tv. Why do we need to do that right when he. I mean it was just to be right. And so i would keep an and it may be just a paranoia part of my personality but i always spot stuff like that you know and it's not by accident or they're not nothing's by excellent now. I'm not stupid open. I'm not asking you to name names but you you have like in your mind. One two three people in that company who you think would just be like nana. Let's let's let's put him second or third and like but you kind of know who they are about tickets. Oh yeah oh yeah. Totally why i hope. I hope you can sleep at night knowing that people are screwing with you like that. Who hadn't for you. You know i mean i. I'm not gonna lie to you. Wait any that you will okay. I'm gonna give it another example. You know those encyclopedia's wwe encyclopedia. I thought you meant in general. If you ever go back and you look through those yeah espec- not the recent ones like you'll see nwa w and deacs And like the picture me. i'll be like my head. i'll be hot be behind. Somebody's or like my head will be behind big show. It's like it's like a chain rib. Now what does triple h have against you. tell me what do triple h. Why is hunter wise paul. So what grudges he holding. Isn't he in charge. Can he stopped this type of nonsense. He doesn't mess within his own. Actually i i actually did say something to eventually could i i would try to. I don't wanna try. I try not to take my saw that serious to worry about it. But then like something came up where Something was going down. And i should have been there and nobody even thought like i wouldn't even after thoughts. Finally i like went to it. I'm like look. I'm like you know yeah. I was a time. When i didn't feel like i was worthy like t even beer out so i would never have said anything i'm like but i'm a duty jeff purse man like i'm like it's been years years you know and it's not i i haven't tried to to to redeem myself. Yeah i mean i'd still be. Don't get me wrong. But i mean he was told he totally got it. And you know what that's thing you know i'm coming out and wrestlemainia thirty was what was it last year thirty one. Yeah next thing you know. i'm involved in one of the top matches. Show yep And i was just i explained. I'm like paul. Like i didn't even bother you at this stuff. Yeah i'm like but it's all these little things you know then like. Yeah they do get to some types just because there was at one point in time it was almost like they were just like a race. Me some you know from the history. Yeah which you could never do especially now with the wwf network and don't get me wrong. Wait i understood. I understood. 'cause i i you know. I brought some embarrassment to the street. You know several years. And if i would have had any self respect at the time i br i would've been embarrassed to with myself. Yeah but You know I think in for everybody. I think just about like i think there's a chance for redemption for every book. Yeah if they put him to work really really they really regret and yet to be sincere as you know what especially if you're not one of those people that makes them a ton of money. What's the what's your. Where do you want to be in. It's a it's it can be a troublesome question answer sometimes but where do you want where do you see yourself or do you want to be five years. It's kind of like you know the the job interview question. But what do yeah. Where do you see yourself when it comes to pro wrestling specific. I'm not trying to get too personal about things but just in terms of what you want to be doing in pro wrestling five years. What would be a good scenario for you that you would aspire for well. That's a that is a really good question. Because i'll say this with the company i'll be. I'll be doing something company which ww now I don't know like you know made me down at the performance center. Something book done in the ring lead. Yeah yeah. I'm not done for ring and i'm not done in the ring the wwe. It's just not gonna happen like soon. you know. yeah like soon. It's not gonna like people. Think i'm gonna be at the rumble You know they're expecting like i hear people tweet middle expect to see it there on bone. Sorry i'm not going to be there. It's not because they don't want to. Yeah well some people are happy to you. Know i mean you know the people that count now but i mean that's just i can't pass a physical. Yeah so which. I mean i. It's damned there. I mean eighty percent of the people that i work with that were on the roster back in the nineties to pass it does. Yeah well what do you think about. What do you think about. Daniel bryan getting cleared from other doctors. But not wwe's and saying you know shit. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah i mean pisses me off the do think i mean there's people who think they don't want brian around until roman rain gets over. 'cause roman can't over the fans i don't know this is only speculation. Yeah it's only speculation. i i can't gino. Daniels has an a neuro guy. You know that his credentials are are you know exceptional. I mean he's one of the top guys and the sealed and he gives them cleared up like dr. Maria is who was featured in the concussion when his character was i mean how was traded air. But like you know. I mean it you would think he would be a little bit more You know like you know not be. That's about it. i mean. I can tell you are also we. We all know that. Now i mean especially me but you know i mean. Here's the thing guys he's been cleared and it's his lights. You know dislike. I mean we all. I mean every shot had looked. It's like when we didn't know like you know all information didn't come out about cigarette. Smoking yup headstone was bad for you. Yeah yep same thing with any knucklehead has to know a full on sheriffs shot that. Fold the steel chair over here at a get. It's gonna stand with your ex. Yeah so And i mean these are things that that we had you know. I mean you know adults. We make these decisions with this. What we i mean we way out like the glory and all these things you know the financial and all that And living your dream. Is it worth like a few years off your life and like you know some people. It's not and then some people. Yeah yeah. I mean he'd like i mean i mean like take this off. You know weird area. Take our discussion. You know somewhere i mean. It's i don't know because we're talking about daniel here and all he wants to do is wrestle. Man kito i. They could him five million dollars a year and a lot so he's happy. I'm rich band host of the deep dive with richmond. A weekly part of the torch daily cast lineup of shirts. Search torch an apple podcasts. Or your podcast. Subscribe every saturday at six. Pm eastern. i dive in with guests for an hour and anything in the world of wrestling or wrestling related. Wanna hear about the influence of historical figures. Like big can lead. We got you wanna hear about how crazy marine movies got. We are on it. No topic is too big or too small. So if you want to dive in with this call in live or listen on demand and see the entire. Pw towards daily cast schedule at pow towards daily casper dot com. I always thought sean that daniel bryan would move on to another chapter if he had to with with more. Willingness and i was wrong about that i thought that daniel bryan would have enough other interests that when the day came that he couldn't wrestle he'll be fine with it well. I think that's probably still true. I just think daniel bryan disagrees. That now is the time. But i think when that time yeah but nobody knows nobody knows your body better new to way that goes for you that goes for me just goes for for him you know i mean. He knows that he's not i mean he's he's he's still in his prime. Yeah so while yet. Yup and he's sitting on the sidelines thinking about all the way to contribute. And i mean the frustration as i know he's a hell of a guy man he's got together upstairs else he'd doughnuts. Yeah well when. Aj styles in shouldn't shinsuke nakamura were signed and a couple of the ball club members. They dan o'brien just right away goes please clear me. I need to be part of this. Like he's not shy about it. I mean he really. He really wants are honestly. I'm surprised she hasn't said well. If you're not gonna let me rest by really he probably has. And they're probably my. I'm i don't think he'd just be hanging on like this if they said we're never clearing you. I think there has to be some protocol that they're waiting for. And i hope it isn't. When roman reigns gets over or we get past wrestlemania thirty two. And i man. I know what i'm not. I'm not saying i lean towards that i think they're being overly cautious as daniel bryan regardless of roman reigns. But everybody i mean so. Many people bring that up there like you can't have daniel bryan in the royal rumble. If roman reigns is going to win i mean. We've known that for six months. If the glow if the goal is to get roman reigns over daniel bryan is gonna get more people are gonna want him to have the belt in very determined roman over and pragmatically speaking. I get it but it's it's it's wrong to do that to daniel bryan. If that's i think they went admit. That's the reason. But it's possible in some undercurrent of their decision making. They're deciding to be fault on the back of the might be in the back of certain people's minds Big time say so. Yeah yeah you know. And i mean strategically might be smart. Enough fats oldest. But i mean man. I see no one guy. These days is going to do it for everybody like a stone cold in iraq. Yeah you know. I mean even had its own. I mean we were over like like i mean big time but we still work. Everybody's cup. the tea everybody glove rock. It's don't tell everybody. You know what i mean so i mean there's gonna have to have somebody everybody there's gonna be people that aren't going to buy what romans are. What what the companies himself. Yup i should. I should put it that way. You know man. They're making strides with them. And then i see them do something that like. I really question why they have do that. Like cow after all the amazing progress they made in two days time. You know When you you know between the day purview title here in philadelphia. I was here that night. I was a bit gorilla position. What happened And it was really cool and it was such an amazing thing like That they could get people in philadelphia. Wells fargo arena. That booed him out of the building last year that they could get same people to be almost in tears. What what's your. what is your sense of. How roman is handling this like. I mean he's been pretty forthright. should be i. I'm not around enough to know. But i think he should be like maybe a little bit more assertive with this character and what his character is to figure it out. Which isn't the guy that should be smiling laughing at doing funny stuff all the time. Yeah in my opinion but he also showed anyway against his speed. You know austin got away with it later on down the road. Yeah but in. That building process austin was not much straight up businesses. Kick your ass no funny ha ha now. Yup but i i saw. But he hasn't found that comfort zone in the middle sean where he doesn't also look like he's grumpy because he has to show up for work like there's there's a way to look serious but also enthusiastic and i think there's there's a connection there just hasn't quite connected doesn't look you think he looks to laid back out there no i think. Sometimes he looks like he's he's just not happy that he has to do anything to get the fans to like like. I think there's a body language. He gives off to a certain segment of the fans. That gives off a vibe that there's a sense of self entitlement or in that that's a separate topic from what i originally was saying. I think it's not a binary choice between i'm angry and i'm happy go lucky and there's it's not it's not a linear line and i think he kinda bounces between the two but it's not a linear line and there's all these other places to land and i don't think he's quite there yet. I think as a heel more. They're still given those most of those guys Artistic liberty correct. That's the thing that's the thing that is it. Yeah it's all in the writing. an even. Stephanie said to me after he won the title she does now. We just have to write in the. Yeah she goes we did. We've got and let me tell you something it took. I might be talking about a school. But whatever so. He took cleaner like cer- ever arguing with cheese. I shouldn't be saying oh. Like danced in not wanna let hotter his ashby by by irate by relevant that thing that turned the tide for him and he had to fight tooth and nail to do that. That white what philosophically. What's the counter argument to doing. It would make me look too much like a. He'll okay which is exactly what i mean. Didn't we go through this in the late nineties within you know what i'm talking about the boss. Yeah yeah you know looks the red white and blue the white hat. That's that doesn't work anymore. Yeah so you know that edry edge. Yeah no it's it's the place they buddha up. They weren't there are i mean watching this industry and You know from the place that you went. When i it in two ways am i enjoying. It is does does this. Is this kind of my type of show. am i engaged. And then you also step back and observe. Is it other people's thing and how many and how popular and is it clicking in. It's just the right thing and when you look at roman reigns just scholastically. You know you're studying this fascinating to see this. Wwe machine that's had john cena and the rock and stone cold and dx. And and bret hart and shawn michaels and hulk hogan and i mean well yeah take her and then back land and bruno. Rome is one of those guys. They're trying to make him one of those guys that'll be in that conversation and they want him to be more than batista was and batista was very useful in a. You know an edge very good solid made. Here's today's mistaken. They make they can only help them make themselves right. Yep now through patriot. You can get the weight. Keller pro wrestling. Po shows keller wrestling podcasts and the pow torch daily casts with the ads and plugs removed and vip after shows by supporting us on patron with a tier one membership for just four dollars. Ninety nine cents per month. You can also upgrade to get additional bonus content including all the podcasts and the pow torch newsletters through patriae on checkout details that patron dot com slash. Pw torch vip. that's patriot john. Dot com slash. Pw torch vip if you're constantly. Somebody's learning the tight rope block. And you're constantly holding their hips and walking behind that they don't know how to balance. And at some point. You get to the middle of that tight rope looking down at the streets manhattan and you have. You don't know what to do without someone holding your hips and i. Sometimes i fear roman. It's too far out on that tight rope for anyone to let go but at the same time at some point you have to see if he can balance there in and i don't wanna carry the analogy too far but stand there on his own and be himself without as as the company has done for him hold his hand script his every move and somebody said this on twitter. I thought it was maybe the best description of what i think fans feel when they watch him and wide comes up short with a big chunk of fans and by the way he was in india. Got the biggest pops that house last week when he goes to how shows he's got a lot of people cheering him like he is. He is a star. I paid to see. We're not talking about roman as a failure. What we're saying is the aspirations are so high for this spot and something. Isn't there yet. And what do you do to get there. And i do think that there's he at some point needs to be able to connect to people in the twitter person said that when i watched roman reigns. I think there's a thirteen year old with video game controller. playing him. He you know it's oh here's this. Here's this thing that i do. I put my fist on the mat. And i stand up and put both arms back and arch my back her. And now i'm gonna go to the spirit. he this. This animated video game. And i think that stopped some people from thinking. Wait everybody knows who sam punk was. Everybody knew who daniel bryan people knew. Steve austin was and people know who a lot amid cars are that they like rummages over scripting so it it's fascinating watching. This roman reigns curve. Big deal i mean they but they still. I think totally get that. He's not quite season. I've never seen roman reigns. Cut a promo where i felt. That's the guy that. If i just observed him at the gym talking to his friends that would be the same person. I've never on television. He don't really need to be the promo guy wade but he needs even as the top five but as a top. But i'm asking be amana that any words but that's but still if he has six six words or twenty words he's still. It's needs to seem like it's not people. I always use this analogy. Brad armstrong totally different when the red light was on the guy who just joshua around backstage cracking. Everybody always said that about brad if he could only be themselves out to. Yeah you know and not change into that. What he changed into in the light came and that goes with everybody. That was a big problem for me. Yeah well anyway. Sean we could keep going on. I don't know if there's a good breaker conclusion of this. It's an ongoing topic. Let's take some phone calls. Let's see what other people want to chime in here. We can talk about more later. Yeah yeah don't forget if you are an amazon shopper. If you do some shopping at amazon support what we do here and again a way to show support for us is peter you torch dot com slash amazon. All right so let's go ahead and begin with area. Code will do. Eric would relate here three one nine. You're up for three one nine. Please state your name and where you're calling from zehnder from cedar rapids iowa cedar. Almost original sold out pay per view. Yeah i'm talking to you in a while. Miss you how you been great hell. I'm doing fantastic. I didn't take cedar rapids. This is android called him before. I thought you said yeah wasn't hundred percent. Sure because we caught the tail end of it go ahead. Yeah go ahead sean sean. This is a really my question. But i listened to one interview that confront china and i just wanted to give you a shout out for that because i've heard those stories of her saying that stuff for years and i'm not we don't have to go into discussion with them but i'm really happy you call in that day and said something because i've always you know i've always took your side one hundred percent of the time. The thank you for santa. because it's not something i like like i don't wanna bring keep up in the past and everything but you know when you're accused her rates and the things that that that i've been accused of those are the you know those in people's lot like And even though like i i would like to think most people you know well people close to the business and that follow the business. I think took it with a grain of salt. Yes but there are some people that by that by that just because they hear it. If a woman tells me she was raped. And i don't or like i take your word for it. Yeah you know so like her to have somebody say that about you. Like i like i mean. Imagine just imagine it happening to you in the public guy and imagine how even help but it would mess you up. Just the yeah. It'd probably mess up anybody but anyways good was it bad i i took care of it. I took care of it. If i mean she keeps. I don't think so Mentioned anything like that. Agai- yeah don't think she will either 'cause it's just based on how yeah she. Yeah because of who she is right now and it's just to try to incredible to believe or by this point. Let's go to move on. I got i got one. I got one question Aj styles is most likely going to be in the rumble that sunday. What were your thoughts of working with them. And tna and dramatic you had one really good match with them. You know my best match for them was. The match was in the bathroom the whole time shooting up about them set of me. Oh my gosh turn to put him. He's we're trying to get a finnish and put a little something together because of the high risk nature of of our style and we had nothing and he goes out first and he tells bill barron is at the hurt and he goes well. I'm to do stock. And but like he just thought it was going to be brutal. And i was just like this and we went out there. We killed it. The only problem was was the finish that they did those earlier in the day. I totally forgot so we just kept own and taking up the satellite time Finally we just like wanted to a d. or something and You know. I think the main event at ten minutes we were semi After we by the time we were but they it was really good stuff that story. That was a really really irresponsible and do. Aj luckily right are we. Were just about to go out there and get through it. you know. There's turned out to be a really good match. It was great talking to you. I hope you do good talking to you. Take care did you to sean. There are so many people who who you converse with on twitter. You know we talk about how we can be friends. Don't talk to each other on the phone or even see children person is but you. I mean you were one of my favorite twitter feeds. I mean it's not just about progressing. It's about so much stuff and you go through stretches where you're really engaged and then sometimes you're not and other times someone will you know it'll get out of hand and you'll yeah and i think that's healthy but i mean i think i think people feel a connection with you but there's also the other flipside mickie james actually talked about this on the peter torchlight casts with with pat mcneil that she felt at wrestlers had become too familiar to accessible in in some ways to. What is if you were still fulltime active on television. What would be your approach to twitter as a heel as a baby face. Would it be different. What do you think the company policy should be when it comes to that and how someone presents zone. Wow that's tough because whatever their policy should be. I completely break like a mean. They called me from office today and we somehow came up and might i sure hope you guys don't by twitter. Well i mean. I know stephanie does and i know certain people do you know throw dog and that they read it while they're while they're while they're watching raw or while they're taping our shooting rock. Yeah so. Stephanie is on raw as the show. Airs in your commenting. Well no i. I know road dog. yeah but He's he's doing fantastic up there and he's he's really one of the guys that trying to make sure it in the right direction. Yeah even really you can tell on twitter. He's a company guy because there's no rating low guy but he's still bright james. Yeah up the public face. The public comments are very company. Guy you know very pr. And that's fine. I mean if he works for me. I would want that to As long as he's not because they're not they're not be ash though well just candy coated or however you wanna put it like competence company company may about so But i mean he really does and really sites too good site like that you know when something's just not right and sometimes he had to leave the gun host or sometimes he goes nope s is. Yeah but he was the boss. Okay go ahead is in say social media wise. you know. it's tough to. Do you speak out of character with fans or in a way that totally contradicts. What you're trying to sell people on who you are on air. Like kevin owens plays plays up his character but in a way where you don't think he's playing a character on twitter. You just think this might be the way this guy i enjoy. Yeah but wade barrett. It's not it's not like it's really like you know like super by twitter. Standard super edgy. Though he keeps it clean. But like still good singers. But then you have options. I guess i guess by policy would be this. If if you actually do have a character like you know cutting state in you know in character on twitter especially on your verified account you know as a person if you want your own personal account you know or something and you wanna do whatever on that like i know. I don't think i'd have dropped. But but you know anything official like you know where you have all the followers and everything. Yep i don't know But as far as to me. Like i've never felt like i was a character in two thousand twelve. Annex t transitioned into the developmental system and ultimately the brand usa today on the torch. Vip podcast annexed t eight years back. We'll be taking a weekly look at this page in annex tease early history. Join kelly wells and me. Tom style from. Wt talks next every saturday as we go. Eight years back to the day to track annex rising talents and why they did or didn't work out exclusively for torture vip members. That's my. I would just continue to be that. That's my point though. Is i don't know that there's a if you don't play you know bray. Wyatt doesn't play himself wade. Barrett stu bennett doesn't play himself but he should. You know like his like wade barrett any changed it finally but on twitter. He now says his name. Is stu bennett on twitter. And then it says in his handle is at wade. Barrett and description is wwe wrestler wade barrett. And that's fine because people figure out but you let stage names. That's no big deal. It's not like that's not. That's not my fight. But he previously had said i pl- i perform as wade barrett and wwe. Or i play the role of wade barrett like that used to be his description and he changed in the last in the last few weeks to something better and that's better and so yeah it. Just it's it's so new. I'm not saying that like you know. There's just one obvious answer. But i do know that i don't want bray why to show me pictures of him at a before. Yeah and so anyway. I mean. I don't want to believe i read that i read that i read that when you tweeted about like email him like steve my kinda like gambling out over by taking a pitcher with somebody. Yeah i. I don't know if that's how i that's how i seem to be about like the scenario village but yeah i get it takes you out of. It's just kind of the same as i don't like watching the baking those or the directors like Commentary over the movie. We'll see but that's different because when you watch a movie they want you for two hours but when you follow. Wwe they want you for twenty year. But i don't wanna see the. I don't wanna to see the documentary on how it was made movies. But i give you that. That's that makes sense. But i guess. Different point that i would make people go well. Everybody knows they're actors just like in a movie. And i'm like no movie only wants you to believe two hours but wwe wants you to believe who somebody is month after month year after year and so don't cause interference with that unnecessarily and anyway but yeah that that's been you know we were the one jet she'll chase sage supposedly even lx. Nobody had a clue before. You know the call and all that stuff. Yep At the same time. I think certain amount of chief eighth needs to be brought back. Yeah i do too. You know and and i was talking to pat patterson about that and it's not like put the genie back in the bottle. But it's like protecting it like the new japan guys. Do yeah you know. Don't don't have guys like in in pitches with each other that are still doing an angle with each other right exactly and i mean like let's get back to that a little bit like You know your show the same car with it for whatever. I wouldn't take it so far as like. Don't eat the same restaurant with them or you know. Yeah don't socialize it depar- afterward. Whatever i i don't know if i take it that far maybe yeah it's it's you know it's tough when you stephanie's account and she goes i believe in the power of community and giving back to those in need and i play a bad guy tv like that's tough one from the top down when the people at the top want it both ways. They wanna have their cake. They want you to believe in their character. Get into it. You believe in all the wrestlers but they wanna have they want to eat it too and have the corporate community realize. Oh but that's not. Who i really am and i need to make that clear. It's tough than to tell someone else to not talk about how they play a bad guy in tv. At stephanie. and hunter get to do the same thing. Roy i mean i see what you're saying but i don't think that's as big a deal as like you know if one of the talent there's talent there i i know not the ones that are selling the tickets that or the main of that all the tickets. I get what you're saying and yeah ideally ideally year. I mean they're still like they still got be You know the like legit like on the board of a publicly traded company well but they are but triple h is probably gonna be headlining wrestlemania. Thirty two in dallas in his twitter says whether in the office or playing a bad guy in tv. I always do what's best for business. That's his twitter feed. He's saying i'm playing a character. So my point is if triple h and steph want to change it. Because i don't think you have to say that i think of corporate community knows that you know the l. That will enough but it's tough. I mean i'm not again. I'm not trying to corner you into bearing them or anything like that. I'm just saying my point is it's hard to judge the wrestlers when the people at the top are setting that example and they use a separate set of rules. But there shouldn't be a separate set of rules because hunter and steph are the most important tv characters on that show the way that that show was written because everybody bows down to them. You know i mean. I mean rick flair in chris. Jericho bow down to stephanie. She dominates on the air. Triple h is probably headlining wrestlemainia. These are not minor characters even if they're not working how shows right. Yeah so. I i it. Just it's it's it's a work in progress. But yeah i mean this is all just like we're learning has we're going here because i mean i i mean this is still fairly new it is at least at least at least i've utilizing it. I'm not you know. I mean they're they're they've always been pretty cutting edge when it came to like you know new media stuff any kind of shea. Shade was the head of new media. What that department i hope i'm not for shaming anyone. I'm for saying. I think this is a conversation that should be had behind closed doors and i think in two thousand sixteen there should be a policy and i think the policy should make sense and i don't think there should be exceptions for the privileged that go against what policy for everyone. Let's go to more calls sean. I don't believe that any more than i have here. I do want to remind people we're gonna be covering the royal rumble live sunday night. P members have check it out. Pw torch dot com slash go vip. Let's go to five five nine. And then ryan is on deck after that go ahead. Five thousand nine hundred and where you're calling from peru. It's playing the character. Well you know what i wish. We didn't. i wish we didn't know he was. I wish they had told us. A story about rotunda son disappeared for a while. Nobody knew what happened to him and he came back with all these crazy beliefs and he's he's ostracized in the locker room and while everyone's skeptical that's true. Nobody knows for sure it isn't. That's what i wish that whether you want to call their territory. Not that is like part of hip like. That's that's like those. Nobody writes his lights. Yeah i this is totally ahead. In fresno stewart stephen fresno ask questions two quick question. one With the title being online the rebel. Do you think they should kind of hold off on style. Exa have no chance of winning the rumble and to you think they will be baked jericho to come back because of all the injuries and really have anything ready for them. That's like sponges wills. With a new day. I two week I only watched the first week of that. He broke the trump out So it's hard for me to say You know like for me to comment on the new day jericho stuff. I thought it was big. He with breaking the term. Though i got a kick out of that. Yeah i thought they should have gone somewhere with it. I don't know if they have But cancer your question about you know the the attractions being in the rumble. Because nobody knows everybody knows the wind so what they're still going to get a huge pop and they and they do it right. They're gonna come in and they're going to clean house and the people are gonna go bananas. It's a show and it's it's it's and then they're gonna get eliminated and that's how it's going to go live i it's all about. It's all about me. The people make noise. It's all about the reaction with the title on the line. I mean i guess there's not even thirty contenders for the title side doesn't really make sense to bring up the point. I guess so. Don't put anybody of. That's not that everybody was going to win right. You won't have anybody of dan matched you. You argued my point against me. Thank you you'll have brock and roman and three or four other dark horses and soviet seven-man rumble. I mean yeah. I mean what do you say about like so what. Yeah no i mean it gets. I mean in this case it kind of boils down to if the rumble. Gimmick didn't draw money. If it wasn't successful it'd be absolutely ridiculous. Why would you expect. Their people expected to come out right. They'll be disappointed. It's out there but so that's the thing rumble is. It's sort of like undertaker. There's a different set of rules for him. You know with the special effects because he's up baker but you don't you. The exceptions to rules are exceptions. Because making the exception doesn't cost you as much as not making it and the rumble is so if the rumbles over it people like it they like the nostalgia of so i understand the argument of. Let's set aside even the ridiculousness of that. We leave the winning. The rumble has almost nothing to do with. If you're the best wrestler on the planet it's just ridiculous way to decide mania if you're doing it from a wrestling newsstand magazine standpoint. It's a luck of a draw to headline wrestlemainia. No that's that's crazy. But it's not because it works and it's accepted and the way the matches booked ultimately ends up making some sense. Although i don't i don't think they did. Roman any favors that the totality of what he did was duct. A guy charging adam to become the wrestlemainia headliner. I mean he did almost nothing of that. Rumble so it has to be booked in a way where the guy who wins. Looks like he did something to earn it. He didn't just duck rousseff charging at him. So i think you know. That's more micro than that was a really like not a lot. That was really lack. He created creatively about tennis. Yeah i finished it too. But he savers not like he was. You know it's not like he had a rock and roll before the senate but boy that step seal that deal. Yeah we're about to go to another commercial break. Why are you listening to commercial breaks. Why deal with these interruptions when you can become a vip member support the weight. Keller pro wrestling podcasts. Wait tiller progressing. Po shows the torch daily casts in the entire team and everything that we do and get a ton of return for your membership by becoming a vip member go to pw torch vip info dot com for full details. Thirty plus years of archives of podcasts. Retro radio shows over sixteen hundred back issues of the progressing towards weekly newsletter fascinating march through our coverage of wrestling history and so much more including ad free version of the podcast weedkiller both shows. Ncw torch daily casts and several exclusive vip podcasts just about every day dozens of vip exclusive. Podcast you're not hearing because you're not a vip member so go vip pw torch vip info dot com subscribe to our vip podcast feed and listen a streamlined. Way with no interruptions to all of our podcasts. Again that's pow torch vip info dot com searching for more great wrestling talk. Join me jason powell host of the free weekly pro wrestling boom podcast each week. You'll hear the latest news and analysis for me and my team at pro wrestling dot net along with other pool wrestling media members plus the pro wrestling boom podcast features long-form interviews with notable names in the pro wrestling industry subscribing. I tuned stitcher downcast. And all your favorite secondary apps or visit us directly at pow boom dot com once again. That's w dot com. I think you're gonna jump in. Oh no no just I guess i didn't see it that way. I was just of thinking of vague as a new photo. V logic way like you know. Why would we have this guy and if you has no chance of winning title but you know the rumble is a formula ended up. It's all to play up. Yeah i guess. I kinda yeah. Yeah you're right in what was your. What's your second when it's done right. It's a it's it's what i think is laid out right. It's phenomenal. yeah no it is you. Didn't you didn't know the first one was With all the injuries and just seems like they beg jericho to come back. Not really have something ready for okay. Yep yeah. Sean talked about it. But i didn't get your take on weights. Yeah no i think it probably was less steve but But yeah i mean. I don't know that. I don't know that necessarily had to be. I mean they might jericho always coy about that. If he's going to come back you can count on him saying on twitter. There's no way i'm coming back. And i like that. I don't think or just say nothing but don't say yeah i'm gonna make a surprise appearance in six days it's going to be awesome. I mean that's that's not a surprise so he had been on twitter. Saying you're not gonna see me part wrestlemainia now. Obviously he's there. So i think he probably sean did get a A you know. Hey we need you you know. There's all these injuries. i mean. Senior ethics zarro daniel bryan. And i mean it's just it's it's rough. It's rough for them. I i know that You know they have to all that but honestly in that i. I would be hide by injuries as much as i could these days. Yeah seriously i would not tell him. I was hurt us. I was like this. I couldn't you know. I'll get a get out of bed or well. I think that's probably what's probably. Yeah i think that's probably happening shot. I mean johnson and needed surgery so sorrow needed surgery. Sammy's as needed surgery. Seth rollins clearly needed surgery. I mean i don't swayed. I need i need i tutor for surgeries abuse after years are still wrestling. Yeah yeah i don't. I don't think any of those guys. I don't think seth and could continue working. Even if they quote needed but didn't get it. I don't think they can do. I mean by impression. Is that some of these. Some guys are working with injuries. And then they don't get help and they keep working a full schedule and then they end up with the worst injury. I think seth rollins tried to wrestle with an injury and made things a lot worse in that one match with kane. I get that impression by what i look at what happened. That looked like it. Just get week right right like there was an issue before that date. Yeah but but the thing is is he continued to wrestle even after the powerbombed through the table and his kneepads he worked he wrestled. He lifted up. Cain i think he might have done more damage in in that span of time from the power bomb through the finish in that when you're working on a bad above knee you're gonna tear something else. I mean ended up in almost a worst case scenario form. Where had he just called off the match at that moment and said i'm important This is a house show in europe. I need to get this checked out. Let's finish and ruined. Wake up tomorrow and they'll still be a company but it's just we're we're we're not. We're not wired that way the wage. You're absolutely right and it would be really nice. Ah there are some guys. That would say epic go home but there are certain guys. That just aren't wired that way. You know it's like when i turn my but at at at jerry's retirement batch. I i went. I was telling how much longer that match go. You know I i i knew what the deal was and i should like i. You know it would have been way better if i would. That's got out of that thing at that batch but I dunno where was. What was i say very rare for enough but i just talking about the guys in the. Yeah in their wired. No i agree with you i i. It's taking it back to daniel bryan wise dana. Brian do and top rope headbutts. When he's got nerve damage in nerve damage numbness in his arm and a history of concussions. When daniel bryan can make millions of dollars and wrestle and make his fans happy by taking that move at least out of his repertoire. I mean it's at some point. It's just common sense to adjust to not push on. And i wonder if daniel bryan would be in the position. He's in now if he stopped doing the top rope. Headbutt in your the wrestler you. I've heard different things from different wrestlers on that. I've asked a lot of guys. And i've gotten some different answers on whether that's a big deal or not to me harley race said don't do it chris benoit's did it over and over and over and over got his neck fused and then continue to do it and ended up with the and look what happened. I think that contributed. I just think at some point. The company needs to say you're fired. If you do that move. We might be wrong. But there's a thousand and one other you can do. Do one of those in stop doing this one. 'cause this looks really bad giving your neck and your concussion history. How was that wrong. We lost sean. I said i must have said something. All right let's bring. Sean sean is at you. Can you hear me now. I can set my screen. Said you dropped off. Did you have to call back in or did it. Just i had to call back. And like i heard teamed up about that. Yeah good and all of that. Yeah so am. I wrong she. I'm sure i missed. I missed about thirty seconds. So yeah my. My thing is is shouldn't the have told chris ben wa after he had neck fusion surgery. Hey chris stopped. Doing the top rope headbutt harley race to that for years and he not top rope but he regretted he said screw screwed them up. Then why did it. It continued doing it. Ask somebody in the company. Why don't you tell them to stop. And they said what. Are we going to do find him. And i said yes or fire him. Just telling me your you work for us. You don't do that anymore. And he did it over and over and over and ended with c. T. e. and i just think it's i don't think i don't think anybody who was that impact that. I don't think they thought it was packed. Want on the head as apparently ended up being because died at thoughts. Does i had a lot ways. And honestly there wasn't really that much impact my head. And i i mean different guys. Do things different ways. But like i would be now like to to go to daniel. Do like he shouldn't be a four. Yeah you know Just because of what we know about you know. have you know but it's conscious about. It's not just about the brain injury. It's about the numbness in his arm. It he should be doing more. And all that yeah. I wouldn't have had such a strong stand on it. If harley race hadn't said don't do this anymore screwed me up for life you know i mean sometimes you listening. Here's thick. just just the move really get is is it. One of those that gets his biggest reactions. I don't think it is or april is. Is there a substitute even if it even if it did but it's gonna knock you out of of two three wrestlemanias in a row. Worst case scenario worst-case scenario retired. Whatever it is. Just find a new move guys. Do it all the time. Sure you i used to. They should german suplex guy every night adequate. Yeah yeah you know. And i it was tough to stop. Do it I used to drop off the top rope. Oh type yeah. I mean you just eventually you gotta start eliminating some of these things from your wheelhouse. And that's not the one that's the the boob and his arsenal that gets the biggest pop anyway. I had to be honest with you. And i are people who i at. Where even if. I didn't have a health issue. Yeah quit doing it. Just because it didn't get as big a pop exactly half. Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling. podcasts will come join me out for l. Over in the progress paradise Torch vip as we bosc on the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the great matches and chose from around the world. Be at the us. Japan europe or mexico. There's always a place restaurants passed in the paradise to and we've done fun. Historical shows such as the we love ligers series celebrating glorious career of juche thunder like on our. I was there when shows where guests will join me talk about a classic bent that they were in attendance for we love variety and you can expect lots of at the progress paradise detailed peter roof torch. Vip subscription information on a list of all the vip benefits is available at peterborough torch vip info dot com and. Yes all vip. Podcasts are compatible with popular. Podcast apps on iphone and android devices. Or you can stream directly from our ad free. Vip mobile site c in the paradise. Let's take another call shot We'll go to. Let's go to ryan colin. I know who's eager to talk to sean today. Go ahead right. Where are you calling from today. And england just in yorkshire in england. You both good yeah. We're both good bet on the quick one now. quote About three questions. The first the first one grabs at Issues with come cushion. bit he caught stood down before obviously he made any money off before he was anything. Big in the wwe. Do you think that obviously if he was if it was the same way around with daniel bryan see are they seriously concussion with grids on the basically stopped him from wrestling and now he's on commentary but you're think that the the where the longtime down your because he's money in him on the head just because of the money issue of of he can bring us mona. Let's see if we can clear him but with swan lot car regrets. No raleigh young. Let's just make sure that it let. He's not going to be wrestling. Because he before i started with. We're going to stop it. You understand the question saw. I do understand that and and i think i think there is something to that but let me tell you what why i think that is There was a lot there was going to have to be a lot more time. Put in To get the return on core in that corey was very. You know. I was sterling games. Theft I like this look. I liked him in developmental even before annexed and fcw but it was. There was pretty good deal a while before they were going to get their return on him. my somehow it's just start killing it out the started but most people And daniels already over and is already you know one of the top guys And so like there is a. It's not like they're already getting their return on their investment with so. I think that that gives him more incentive to you know yeah to me my making any sense urged the what both are saying is if if somebody is on the verge. Somebody's already making money for you. It's the gamble is do you risk their brain in the long run or their body in the long run to make a lot of money in the next year and it's guaranteed he's gonna make you a lot of money daniel bryan. He's over. You're gonna make a lot of money with them versus corey graves. You're like well. Do we risk his well being his brain or his body because maybe some day he'll make a modest amount of money and there's an outside chance he makes a lot and you way that you can go well. Why risk it. What if he's already at this stage. Why risk long-term damage for someone who may not ever make a lotta money for himself or the business. Let's let's pull the plug on this in start. Putting our our investment in somebody else who's healthier and is an as at risk at this point with the concussions with daniel bryan his concussion road yes brian. It's like brian. Grace could be in the exact same condition but they might go to dannebrog well. It's worth the risk because he's going to make two million dollars next year. That's that's a. that's a wise risk. People make wise risks. You know. I mean if august those what the the risk is what the consequences could be right decision you know. Here's a simplest analogy sean. If i have a bad back. I threw it back out yesterday and i see a penny and a nickel on the ground. I'm not going to bend over to pick it up and threw my back out. But if i hurt my back yesterday. And there's a dog laying in the middle of the road in a truck is coming. I'm gonna bend over and get that dog out of the way the truck. Because i'm saving dogs. There's a there's an actual reward for the risk of hurting my back more with dana bryan. There's a real reward for continuing to wrestle. He's gonna make a lotta money and make company a lot of money whereas corey graves. It's it's very unlikely that it's not impossible. He's probably not for sure. Not but probably not going to be the guy who reaches a daniel bryan level. So you side on sugar on the side of caution i think. That's what ryan's getting at. And i would say yes. I kinda that's human nature. And i understand that sure. Yeah and. I don't think that's a bad like yeah i'm ok well. Let me let me. But i do have to take issue with the way though you throw it long time and you're pretty you're pretty tight with the with. The coin is over and pick funny. Wait a second. I one time use a coupon in front of you and now you think that i'm cheap. I didn't even remember the coupon coupon to get two for one burritos. That someplace in in. Sean just looks like wait a coupon. I'm like sure in the mail. I had in my wallet. And yeah. I'm going to get a free burrito. What's wrong with that. Look how you doing all right. Well let me let me bring ryan back on Go ahead ryan with your second class or follow up and yeah i yeah number two questions to be honest to free questions always it breaks cancer this one and see how long it takes we got into that. We will all right okay. So the first question for with these basically 'cause you're a critic In your job do you to enjoy. You're wrestling ozzy. He just wanted and things. Like i'm afonso. I watch you know yards on with but you've got to on ally everything actually sit back and enjoy joyous some stage because he just seems like you analyze everything can. He's not some of it. I know you enjoy it. Because she passion is it. Do you want to sit back and as a fun and enjoy. Adopt a really do anything tonight. I just want to enjoy the wrestling and just watch. It just seems like you know is everything. Can you ever just sit back and just relax. I know you're saying Whenever i whenever something like would sometimes don't really good. I'll feel like i'm assuming you're talking about my twitter feed like And i do like if something's going really good like i to into it to be typing on my idea Mobile device and and saying you know critique of it When i'm when i'm critiquing jumping it's because like it's for a reason and that's what it takes me out like you know It messes with my being able to be a san when the when when we'd do is good the biggest wrestling i'm saying there is when i see holes in things and all that now i can't help it i got a call it out. Yeah and i. I enjoy my job but i enjoy. I enjoy it on two different levels. And i enjoy a bad product because i have an outlet to try to figure out what's not working here and i want to figure out what are the talking points for the podcast. What am i going to write in my report. And so i enjoy that aspect of it. I enjoy good and bad products from a standpoint of. I want to figure out what's working and why and i want to figure out what's not working and and so i don't get overly higher overly low about a good or bad product can rant every once in a while about doing. I just find so stupid or somebody abusing power that they like nevels cape. What about it. You're talking about things that are stupid. oh no. I don't have a strong opinion on that but i i absolutely you know the the cape in armed of and the carrying this lambie out. It was like just like like china. Bake you know i. It's not it's not on my it hasn't been on my radar but now that you bring it up. You've ruined it for me. Thank sean sorry actually. I don't think that anybody's going. Butch tried to not make it over. I just that there is some people have really. Don't like these stir is that there is that but yeah i mean people ask me that sometimes if i'm criticizing a bad product or trying to break down what's not working and you know what. If every time that i was critical of a product the ratings are going up. I would be like well okay. I need to readjust my analysis here. But if if i'm criticizing a product because the crowd is doing the guy who positioned as a top baby face and the ratings are down twenty five thirty forty percent from you know three years earlier and the ticket sales are down ratings are actually weighed. Because you're criticizing the product your fault. That's right livelihood that you're criticizing the product. The ratings of be just fine. Yes so but in short shorts ryan i absolutely love really good wrestling and i mean there's things that i like. There's things that other people watch wrestling for that like the fourth most important thing to me And then there's some that are not like the main reason i enjoy product and then there's reasons that i their shows. I really like. That might be missing something that someone else needs in order to like product. We all have different reasons that we like wrestling. But but no absolutely. I mean it's it comes across. If if you're a vip member hear me talk about a good like good episodes of impact. Like i thought tuesday nights was or really successful. Pay per view for wwe or an x t takeover specials or new japan's top matches. I mean it's like it's it's the majority of my. I mean there's there's a lot of times it's clear A lot a high percentage of the time. It's clear that i'm enjoying stuff. It's not like all my everything. I say about wrestling is wrestling fans. Are you that person that works in a pro wrestling reference to every aspect of your life. Well we're those kind of people to but we do so with mixed martial arts. I'm robert via host of enemy talk for pro wrestling advanced every monday on. Pw torches daily cast lineup. Not only do we cover every ufc ambulatory event. We provide context. That only a wrestling fan would really understand. I mean we're the type of people that if you ask us about. How much of a mess. The middleweight title situation is where likely to reference. Wcw in the early nineties. They give us as podcast for casual fans done by hardcore wrestling nerves. And you could find us by searching. Pw torch and apple podcasts or any popular podcast abbott and always available on demand at pw torch. Stevie cast dot com. Where you can check out the entire lineup of the pd towards daily cast got question. I want have time to get some other here. Go ahead ryan question number. Three either way Well he shall so basically Who do you think's gonna win the royal rumble on. Who do you think would be the best to win the royal rumble. So yeah lost question right. Yeah wow that's a really tough question. I is brockett. Brock senate romans in it hunter may or may not be in it. he's not announced ages styles. Mary not in it. League a nation's bray wyatt braun strowman. They're in it but it's only gonna be brock raised or I think it's hunters coming out. He's rusty. Yeah here's the thing. I mean storyline wise. They're they're determined to get roman over and this can either work or backfire horribly. Which is romans the first entrant vincent man whose name out of out of a tumbler and romans name. I got that part. Yeah so he's i and it's roman survives to twenty nine and neville comes out with his cape and slam islami. I could see triple h just walking out in the stage and sending them to the back and then taken off a suit and going i gotta take care of business myself and walking out there and you know eliminating remember seeing something along those lines where the fence actually really cool way to do it. I hope somebody's listening now. They can do it. Otherwise they can't do you send an email to a company and they're like i literally taco once and they sent me back going if your email. It was an automatic if your email included any suggestions for product changes or ingredients changes. We don't read it. We have our own people who come up with those ideas and if any future product that resembles anything you might. It has total coincidence. Because we don't even read that part and www with creative to we don't want booking ideas we don't read them if something resembles what you submitted it's coincidence. We don't read your ideas. So hopefully they just tune that part of the podcast if that's what they're planning but but you're right sean. If triple h comes out. And he might come out thirtieth go. I gotta take care of this. He wins the title and then roman abroad were the previous two. Who who were the last two and they fight one on one at fast lane and roman reigns wins and he tried to get the title from hundred mania. I think that's possible. Yes it's going to be one of those three guys. Yeah it'd be one of those three is doesn't make it any Let's go to yet. Well it depends on how they get there. I mean you know every year every year. There's one to six guys who were going to win. And it's usually one guy with a seventy percent chance and a couple of people with a ten percent chance or two guys with a forty percent chance and the rest fill out the other twenty and you know that's where we are again. It's usually that way but it's how to tell that story. Brian did come out and went up to their parents. People go nuts. Yeah yeah that that. Would people go bonkers. It would be amazing. If h thousand wins it. I would be curious. What the responses. I don't think is gonna camp i said be like i know there's some people that are that are worried that like you know people aren't gonna know who has put them in the rumble. There i think there's the steak yeah. I think a typical. I don't think a regular house show with the fa with the parents and the kids you but it's a different response when you're talking to major pay per view. It's a different crowd right. Yeah they pay bigger money gravel and the bellwether fans kinda lead the way for everybody else if if you get twenty. Five percent of the crowd. React to somebody like a star. Another fifty percent are going to follow along. Oh yeah yeah they're gonna go. Oh yeah okay. Okay the up this. It's just especially after they see what he does what he can do. If you're big brothers if if big brother and his friends are wearing a certain brand of or skip brand of skateboard or whatever. It's like in your influential. You're influenced by that. You know you're the little brother. So all right i got you. Got more time sean. Should we take more calls or did you go ahead. I'm good cook it for a minute. Yeah just let me know. We're we're past the hour point and i'm I wanna talk about making murder a little bit before we go so leamy five minutes in couple of days. Good okay so to save time for making murdering a couple of other things but we'll add. Take some calls time in the world make it seem like especially for you but i'll take that all right. Stop right there. I appreciate it Let's see let's go to Let's go to seven one. Eight seven one eight teacher naming where you calling from. Is you doing good mike. Sorry to surprise you there. Get us speakerphone. And talk to shawn. No i'm here with some gentlemen. I you shar man. What's going on was it might just go ahead. And that's when the let's let's stop at the niceties. You call you call the time you're fantastic and we're friends and we know all that but let's let's get to a question same question. I asked east coast cast. That's right yeah some all joe do you think does you. Do you think he could play. We'll be very impact and the royal rumble. also leading to him possibly being on the rest of many thoughts. That's one of the first things that sound. What do you think. I think he. I think he more than capable. You can tell handle it whatever situation. They put him in how to really likes them. There's a lotta guys. There's a lot of guys that likes you know Are you know like his his. His physique is Works against it out there. Obviously which is stupid to me. It is stupid. it's it's completely stupid but once they saw help how. How got over there going. Oh maybe you know. I mean maybe it's because i mean he doesn't look like like that dude. Looks like a bad. I think tossed powerful fair. You does yeah. He doesn't have. He's like roy nelson and ufc. You know played off of it. You know he he okay. Let's was simone joe's not rusty brooks to full an eighty s job a reference. John samoa. joe rescues yeah so samoa. Joe is a Samoa joe it's are you mike. There's so much Joe looks like a bad ass but it looks like simone bad ass. Who's not who's who's not in bad shape. He just has a different genetic makeup and it serves. Yeah exactly I the one thing. I think that works against him because he works in those schwartz needs to go back to the value tudo sorts man. Because those gam- jim short looking things where they look closely to me. Yeah yeah but no. No i do i do. And i've had conversations with some of your friends about this regarding him before and how he needs to change up. I don't think. I don't know that joe is ever found that perfect. The perfect ring gear short t used to wear when he was like an h. And all that. Yeah the dow too short. Yep we're just fine. Yeah well what. I was going to say like i think with joe the best he's ever gotten are just fine. You know of the compression. Short type. Look and i agree and and i think that's the that is the best look for him but the thing is like i'm not that hung up on it like i mean it's i think it's i am i know. Yeah they'll say that you can still walmart by your here of the rack and the mets. Yeah and i don't like that. No that's that's fair. That's fair. I i would say joking. Overcome almost every outfit still get over. But that's not to say that caring about it and going with the best look isn't worth doing and i'm with you. I'm not gonna argue with that. And i do like the valley tudo shorts the best. I think that looks yup yup going to be barefoot tape the hackles out does he. Does he go barefoot. Kick dad's shoes right. Yeah yeah okay. yeah no. He's just changed their shorts i love. I think he understands. Just how big a deal. Yeah well obviously he doesn't. I mean it's it's easy for him to wear something else if he wants to. I don't think he's wearing what he's ordered to. Because he's had. I mean he could wear whatever he wanted and tna. But i think he is. I think he has whatever he wants. Now what yes. Yes well if someone should someone he respects should respectfully whisper in his ear Hundred sent down the senate down the pipeline. And have you know. Just tell them. Hey i think you're gonna do better with people in the main roster and who evans lewis if you change your look and go with this. And he can do is in better shape than eastern a long time as well absolutely. I think he's doing some of the best work he's ever done as a character in the ring. I love him as a hill. I love him playing off in ballarat. Love the sam. The dynamic of sammy's zane. And baron. Corbin and samoa joe like that's that's joe is joe is i mean. Joe's a really good baby-faced to anytime joe isn't just yelling at the top of his lungs and frothing at the mouth and saying i'm a fan of his. I think when he goes a little too far with the yelling and frothing. That's not my favorite version of joe. But i think You know. I totally disliked like that. Yeah i like the story. I like the straight guy straight joe with the woodridge of emotion but i i interviewed him Did a long tortuous with them. Right after the are away scandal broke with rob feinstein. And and joe. I mean talking to him he was. He didn't yell but boy did you listen everywhere he said because he wanted were out about what he felt that that did to the company and everything that those restaurants had invested in it and how they had to come together and it was there was no yellen but boy did he command attention. You know there was that that aura of authority. What every word counts. And i like that. And i think you're more likely to listen to joe when he actually talks a little quieter than normal but sometimes he has be producing him. Who are like. Turn it up and yell. And that's stills are those people already yes when it comes when it comes to this job right. Oh yeah that's a test people. They're not bad people. It's just they're not good at their job right. Yeah yup yup. Good good contact center every sunday night. Catch wrestling night in america on. Pw torch daily cass dot com hosted by me. Pw torch columnist. Greg parks each week. I'll welcome a co host. The torch family to discuss the big shows and pro wrestling taking your calls and emails. You can listen. Live most weeks beginning at eight pm. Eastern on sunday nights with the wwe or impacts pay per view. Go on the air at the conclusion of that per view. You can listen. Live but of course. The full show is available for download on demand anytime shortly after it airs visit. Pw torch daily cast dot com and click the livestream linked to find the next scheduled live show link search. Pw torture apple podcasts. Or your podcast app to subscribe wrestling night in america every sunday. Twa torch daily dot com. All right mike. I know you had something else So go ahead. we're all hi joanne. Hope he makes it to the main roster. Yeah i mean just pretty much like how he's been nexia feel pass two weeks incredible. He's playing that role to the hill and Also you know my second question is like Sean way what do you see. You know. Undertake a fitting in that wrestlemainia about an ex pot. You know surprising the royal rumble with my seeing that all. That's what i got tonight. Thank i can't do it yet. man. I can't do it yet. Like a buck you will eventually. I'm i'm still. I'm still fairly young So i mean. I got a couple of things i gotta get taken care of. Healthwise like injury while worth anything But like i- healthy and And i got several years left actually going at the rate up going now. I could do this ten years. I don't mean things might change or whatever but I guess what you know what. Let me get told myself back in. I got off to the league You'll see me back a ww red clo- point. Hey there is a six year aged off a five year. Eighty age difference between you and aj styles. I want to put that in perspective. Who asia. okay. Yeah there's a five year age difference you and james storm like you got started so young and you were so in the national scene in this whole other to other eras. The pre attitude era pre monday night war in the mud at war and it. Just i think people just think well that was a long time ago and they don't realize it's a five you're five years old. You're you're only old samoa joe in. We're talking about him. It'd be by the way if you're listening to our life feet. I got sneakers john. If you're listening to us live the stream is gonna end for live listeners. But the full version of the show past ninety minutes will be available on demand so you can check in later on that. If you wanna call the show you can still do so. But you're running out of time so get flying on the phone banks right now. Six four six seven two one nine two eight to one more caller three more calls or whatever but if you want to get online you've got a chance you can also listen to the show if you do that while we continue live here go hitch john seconds or what as i say about our age. How it's been so long full-time guy. But you're not that old. You're not sting say no. And here's the other thing My reflexes are still pretty good. Yeah i mean. When i might kicks they'll still still still give you a haircut not joking like muscle memory that it and And just my timing the ring. Yup and i take i can take the bumps pretty much any bombs you know why it lands on my back. Yep So i mean i guess far as like you know about my wrestling. Yeah yeah so go all right. Let's let's go to three or five and then a take one or two more calls three five golden state your name and where you're calling from. Hey guys dj for miami. Thanks rolling stock. Would it be out for sean. I got two questions. My first thing is that they have a picture. Undertaking training for wrestlemainia. Do you think it's going to be or or do you think that's gonna be came because i don't see anybody else Going end him and my second fig is what are you guys. Pick of Razor becoming an x t Fulltime a trainer at the top. You send cool thanks. I appreciate right to it. sean. Yeah we actually. I think god. Mike in brooklyn s baker. To and what you see for him. I don't think reindeer is gonna be ready by wrestlemainia. I mean unless one of those guys. Yeah neither one of those guys. Ready dame's beat guys. He's going to be working at wrestlemainia if he's to be working at all. Yeah it's going to be with you know one of vic dogs but who's a big dogs left. I'm i'm not sure who it's going to be okay. I don't think they could do another For hockey take 'cause they already got. How many out of that yeah three. I think they did it. They did it. They did it. Because i think the i think we're gonna go this year and the scene it got hurt. I think seen on could be backed by recipe. I don't i mean like i know i mean. Of course. I don't know. I'm not a surgeon but everything i've heard that's not even a possibility a couple of months. I hope they have a be planning. Casey can or he doesn't hurt himself even worse. Trying to have a good match taker. If he's not fully healed. But like. I said i'm not i'm not a doctor. I'm just going on everything i've heard and that is that minimum okay. It was a rotator cuff century. Yeah yeah i mean. That's that's a sculpture or discovered surgery that he could be back but yeah then. That's that's problem solved if he is. If it's not seen a i i mean it. Sounds like they set up ray wide against brock or braun strowman against brock. I think braise more likely and author sean. So much money finally got okay. Comeback against taker one. More time we really need you. Shaw ever got as much as he is really end. Just do it thing now. He's still briefs. Wwe yeah yeah but he will make them eat throw for well you know especially especially after saying he would never get the ring again her from texas maybe well maybe. His word is to as to like important. But i don't know. I mean i don't think much about of michael's agreeing to come back. But you know they can throw enough money and enough desperation adam. It's wrestlemainia thirty. This is the thing sean. Here's what we're looking at for wrestlemania. Thirty two roman reigns against triple h for the title headline match brock listener bray wyatt and undertaker against somebody and we don't know who and nobody comes to mind who's a great option because so many guys are hurt and they just don't have a lot of death. If rock agrees or ken russell get insurance on his movie and he same thing. We need you to work. Then that reshuffled things a bit you know and you can maybe do different things. But i don't there's i don't know i mean i don't. I don't think bronze storm stroman makes any sense. I'd you can't do break. Rock and of match. Look they need to have rocking batch melted. Sure him yeah maybe have a batch. Well they might. I think they'd rather lose some money on the quarterlies and have him in and sell out that building than us in have network subscale up to overpay for it absolutely rather than hurt the wrestlemania brand by having a twenty five empty twenty four thousand. Take a big deal about. He's companies. Return maybe a then it has come out and do another it rings well. They haven't they mentioned it but they haven't talked about it since so it's not like they've gone into big deal mode but you know maybe maybe rock enters a rumble. Maybe he wins the title and maybe roman goes what w f you know. Hey what's going on here. In rocco's well sorry i won and then roman roman and brock fight at faslane for the right to face rock and then triple h. I don't know takes on undertaker obrock again. i don't know. I mean i just don't like the line. There's a lot of ways if you go. It's just a lot most of our anything like where they thought they were going. That's the thing. Yeah but if rock wrestles like you could do triple h and brock in some weird unlikely alliance against the rock in roman with rhonda. Rousey and stephanie at ringside. That feels wrestlemainia worthy and got all your guys tied up other than undertaker then in a really big match. And then you throw. Kevin owens against taker and let owns talk people into the karen about the mattress something. You're still fine but it's still not as deep as you'd want right. It's not for the biggest show ever. Right but steve's steve austin wrestle. I don't think shot michael is going to wrestle. But you know you. He's been in that spot before where he's taking the call and been talked into it when when too many guys were hurt but i you know i mean steve says that. But i'm gonna tell you what he looks good. He looks good enough shape to do it. That's for sure yeah. I think there's a price at steve has but lutely. But but but here's a here's a what i've always said is i think they're i think. Out of respect. To steve austin and firm. He's been you have to say there's almost no chance he's coming back. I just think that has to be the base from which you work but when you start with that and you say but the circumstances under which he would even consider it. This is the checklist he needs to be paid more than he's ever been paid for any match more than anyone's been paid for any metro wrestlemainia. Probably i think it needs to be that. Because he doesn't he's risking his neck literally to come back in the ring and take main mazzone price he does and this is the other thing and i think this is even more important than the money but the money is very important. I'm not discounting that. I think he needs to feel like he will be treated as a comeback as the biggest deal on the show without me about totally yes. He's not a novelty. he's not second from the top. This isn't a re rehashes. All against boston where he felt like wait a second. What's going on here. You know it just wasn't the right match for him at that point. This has this has to feel like he's needed. That's the other thing feel like he's needed and valued and paid and positioned. He's positioned right. He needs to he needs to feel needed. Any needs to be paid a lot. And if you can check those boxes adequately then. I think there's a slight chance that he would listen but even then i think he's going to be leaving. I got too much going on. No i don't need it at this point. I still think that's his genuine spot right now. Where he where's mindset. I i respect As as an believed that that that's how that's where he is right now head. Yeah but man. I tell you what dense comes to you can. He's really need you like i've made. We're our ask really. We're real by at and like its shave show. Yeah may have Let's say oh man you gotta go there but anything short of that anything short of that. He's not even gonna let you get to the third sentence like it has to be that that has to be the approach. You have to write him a t. I think you have to start a ten million dollars. I think you have to tell him. You're the was zach was stinking. Yup i i just because then he knows you're serious. He knows your needed he. He would know i'm absolutely needed. If that's the number you throw at them and that doesn't you know he knows you're serious if you do that. And he knows you're gonna make sure your the centerpiece of everything. And but i don't. Even i mean steve doesn't not need it. He has closed the book. I've talked to him on aaron affair and it's the same story you know and not talking about a school by saying it. There's not it's not like there's bs on the air and then there's a whole other attitude off air. He genuinely has closed the book on that. He doesn't need it he doesn't even want it. He's totally at peace with doing reality. And podcast and hunting. And and i respect the hell out of him for it and so and he's a texan So i know that. I'm not ignoring that. I'm just dallas texas state. You know what i mean. World class home of the home of home of the great parade of champions. It's in that same. The the world record or tablets. Like all that i know does hulk hogan get a phone. Call offense lost I don't know. I don't know wade at like honestly I i can see him coming back at some point. Yeah he is. I add i m him and died. Mactavish the real ring of honor world champion. And you know how. I show everyone that i get it by tuning into the podcast of auto tyler and my personal main man right. This is ryan. And i'm tyler and we are the host of the wildly popular. Uw towards vip. Show podcast of honor. Our show covers everything on a wrestling from analysis. Cherry cavs in wide ranging interviews with the stars and fremont download. The podcast is honored each week and support the best podcast on the pow torch vip network. But you said earlier you have to earn redemption. You have to earn a second choose. You have to say the right things and seem truly truly understanding of what you did wrong. And why a big core part of what you said is not compatible with being put into position to make money as a kid hero for major publicly traded corporation in he s to fully understand that and i don't think retweeting people black and white people wearing hogan shirt saying we're with you constantly is is exactly the pr campaign that i would. I would recommend it for them right. Yeah yeah me. neither. I and i've said this before like good morning america's the last players the last show. He should've went. Uh talk about those things. He should've went on the nightly show. Larry wilmore regardless of what the ratings of that show yes And like if somebody was going to have a give it to he should get sets at taking it and said thank you sir. May i happened other yup and and really just been really honest about this. Yes because i kind of felt you know a little bit Just because we grew up like in the same town. Yep you know i mean. He's several years older than me. But like i knew the ratios that exposed to back. Then i consider myself a racist laid. You know it. I said the word so many times. I can't remember all that you for it. Five set at the front of you. Yeah i've been. I set it up and not that many years ago late and like i just was always like you know even once like she before. I put the minneapolis. I don't go off of it. But like like i realize like when i moved to minneapolis i i said started realizing. I is racial bias and You know just like kind of almost a bit of bigotry. Yeah i didn't even realize they had. Because i was coming from down south and that was what i was brought up around. You know but but for the hulk didn't just say the n. word. Because i think people get hung up on the wrong thing. It's not that he said the n. Word it's that he could not said the n word and i would have been nearly as offended. Those people are not worthy of my daughter. Well unless they're a rich famous. Nba player. it was the shallowness. It was the shallowness of the comment mixed with the racism that to me amplified the use of the n. Word way beyond just throwing the word out there. Like vincent that one skit. That hopes tried to say well that that's the same thing. They're not at all comparable vince. Playing out of touch was and then by the way. And i hope cardi blocked me on twitter's for talking too much about this but But i'm going to say this. Yeah but i mean that's fine But he also told his son in a conversation with son was on the other side of the glass. We're you know. I'm paraphrasing here. You know but i mean you can look it up. It's online but he said like we're going to get reincarnated together. You know we're we're. We're we're soulmates. And we're gonna get reincarnated and then he joked god. I hope it's not as black guys. And so like this stuff is out. There in my issue is he. It's it's it's who he is as a character. The hulk hogan persona should not continue to make money off of being sayers. Vitamins wave the american flag. If that's on your resume unless it's so many guys randy orton could've done commend caught saying this in his career won't be over and i'm not even sure it should be. It'd be bad it'd be a black market it's cogan. There's a different standard. I mean you're was on on the. What do you call. It was craig. Ricky gervais hammerton. Wow yeah so that's think there's a higher standard vite event and all that stuff that's interest on that man like he should. I always wondered why he ever went back to all that after the plot. You know w black black beard and everything like yeah. So i mean hope should not. Here's the thing hoax hoc doesn't have to hide it for the rest of his life and not be a public figure. But but i don't think. I think he's sort of i think his card the the idea that he gets to try that he gets has some unalienable bulletproof right to get paid by major corporation to portray a hero to kids and this this great person without the proper addressing of where that not just the word but those statements in that bigotry came from until he gets there and seems to understand what it is without excuses and without hiding behind the contradictory stories and his pr spinach. He just hasn't made it again. It's up to the public. It's up to the. Vince mcmahon and and hunter. But i just don't think he has some because he was famous once and people cheered him that he has a right to then go make another hundreds of thousands of dollars off of wwe putting him on television after what he said and again. It's not like i think he's a human being and you should go to jail or prison or be ostracized. I just don't know right. But i just my point is the hulk hogan character shouldn't be employed until laya fixes. That and i don't think he's even started to yet. Good way i. I think that who's ever advising him. Probably bite redid. Good morning america. That yup and you know what in one thousand nine hundred on tour i'd be on i'd be going to meet and i don't care if you wanna call al sharpton race baiters or this guy that guy i'd be on the tour sucking up to all sharpton and jackson. Yeah you know. I mean the people like like like legit people that that that I look up to like tavist miley. Sit down what tavist smiley guys like that. Leaders of the african american larry wilmore was the best example because he does comedy. But he's got an edge to him he has he is. He'd be the if hoke said. I wanna come on your show. You can ask me anything. And i wanted to sixty minutes. I wanted to twenty two minutes on the air in another forty online. And i want i just want to figure out. Why did i say this. And how can i fix. And and you're the guy talked to about it that that that's that's the show where it is. Yeah yep and i said as soon as that starts happening. I said he needs to go on very well. Or there's no other show out there that That's my father on racial I i'm with you. I'm on racial issues. Yup honestly larry's phenomenal and he's he he he. He's able to handle serious issues with comedy but not in. There's there's he's he also stands up for things that need to be started night. I don't agree with everything that i've seen him do bits on. He's taken but but i think he's as good as it gets out there and i think i think that would people would say hogan was brave and he talked to somebody who if that person's okay with it. I'm going to reassess whether i'm okay with it. You know that kind of thing. And after sean. Let's let what else you wanna talk about. Besides making a murder you say snow. Because when i got your message said you know you wanted to talk a little politics. Oh yeah hey. I i you know what i'm so ecstatic right now. Man like the other day. I was actually tears. Because i'm for quite a while. Now man i and. I think i've said this on your show and i think you've seen me tweet. Millions of things about Our marine that was held hostage in iran for florida years. Yes well he's homedow- that's amazing. Yeah here and he's home edit. It's his dad has a brain tumor pastas and it's just like this really overjoyed. Yes now if you were wrestling fan you are a fan of a good story in. If you're looking for a good story look no further than stories of your and yours. I'm sean ns. And on every episode of stories of your and yours. I narrate a classic or listener submitted short-story adding music and sound effects to bring the story new flavor. I featured authors. Such as edgar allan poe. Kurt vonnegut ray bradbury mark twain and many more. So don't wait any longer. Download stories of your. That's why are e and yours. That's why oh you are s today and if you wanna hear clips and get more information. You can find the show on facebook twitter and instagram at s. y. Y podcast that stories of your and yours available. Wherever you get your podcasts. What point did you. What is it about his story that led to you being mean. How many other people do you know at your stature. Were making trying to make the public aware of that situation. Like you were montel. williams. Yup montel williams. And i've always loved onta williams because when he had his show many years ago and like like most. Everything was like advocating for women. And i advocate for women big time but sometimes dudes get screwed. Big time you know and and mantell stick up for guys that were getting screwed up and you don't martos dot the perfect guy. Like some people criticized him over his Like predatory loan commercial and whatnot. But like i think maybe might have had a deal where you had to had to make money I'm not saying that. Excuse anything but regardless mad like the guys that that's the worst thing he could say about him. I mean he's got ms fights ms what you know. He's strong medical marijuana advocate Ship decades to a certain services to our country They wanna talk since officer and he was the only guy talking about him in represented representative kilby. Dan shelby michigan and And those were the only two people you know really like and and i talked to Per like the. I bet With their family and Like when i heard what happened at what this guy rent do. And what is families on like. It made me feel like start of ice him in their closets. There's causes sean. Where you like. We can't not like i can't talk. I can't get through the day without just saying let's not forget about this right. Yeah exactly especially when we had a especially where we're working at a deal with iran over nuclear. You know whatever. Like i mean. Come on man we gotta get our guys home so and we did not. There was one this one guy that but for jason revenue the The journalist and i kept my is name of that on the air heck body and don't be bad to his yes to go home to flint but there with the crafty water. Well you know maybe he can draw some That issues people are pretty aware that now. I think that that's not a secret anymore. What the water. Yeah that's been talked about. That is so bad right now. I know that that is so shameful. Yup it out from that by the way. A lot of people here in this Are going to be dealing with one of the big biggest snowstorms. They probably face it a long time. So i just want to. I mean we deal with that up. Yeah yeah yeah. I mean well. It's a lot it's a whole. It's i mean i don't know how far north dakota's todd martin was talking about it. He's in he's in the dc area and So everybody take care you know. I mean we deal with a lot up here in minnesota but we're we're very used to it up there. Yeah yeah so okay. Go up politics. What what the hell's going on right now with What's his presidential election. I know trump has been interesting presidential election of my lifetime. I didn't think it was going to be. I thought it was going to be. You know rubio or or a bush against hillary and and it would just be what is my my my My outlook on it as anybody. Hillary or Or jeb bush. It's two sides of the same coin suicide to the same people. There's a really big chance weighed that. She will be indicted chips in those emails. That's links what they're doing what they're doing david. betray s. eight now talking about emoting him from general. Yeah if they actually are going to do that. I think that's setting up for for put hillary on on the email because they found some cheap. Some super top secret stuff happened. This just isn't coming from fox news. You know i mean even the liberal like the ones that are supposedly slanted to the left are like ooh. This is bad. Like bernie better. I know socialist by any means i it my obviously the guy that i would like to see As president would be rand. Paul governor governor gary johnson. Lifted the libertarian But as opposed to to hillary or jeb bush i'll take bernie sanders overhead or or or or about it people like. I think that. I think that the free market Ca i think three market capitalism is strong enough to adult A little bit of socialism. Wait what about donald trump Let me you. Donald trump to it has your position on him changed for better or has it been a roller coaster. Ride of how you feel about them or you kind where you always have once. He started to land in a position of plausibility up and down on him. A little bit but man. This is something that like. Okay i just have to realize that. This is like hyperbole. Just just just say like like what he says like. Some of that stuff's just never going to happen. Just like bernie says like i guarantee well never be taxed. Anybody ninety percents. I don't give a damn like anybody says. Yeah you know. I mean it will as his own. It's we have balance between the last ten to right. We're going to be signed any side. The let's gives too much power or the right. It's too much power screw paid. You'll agree with me on this too. It's not linear there isn't a right and a left. There's a whole there's a whole. You're there's all sphere because rand paul rand. Paul doesn't fit on the right or the left. And he's there's libertarian. November teri does right. Libertarians are democrats and republicans are left and the right in very significant ways. Where they're they're at odds so in. So that's the thing. I mean like this idea that it's a false choice and it's a choice that's actually unhealthy to think everybody who's four. Gay marriage is also four action describing two issues or or therefore on their unregulated access to abortion but heavy heavy regulation of guns. Like i don't know anybody who checks all the boxes that are considered left or right. But it's not really people like that cheap. Yeah and there because it turns into a sporting event. Are you a cowboys fan or a giants fan. It's like you know whatever it's like it's not to fall in line like all of a sudden you have to agree with every single thing like that. That's the platform of this part and like that to me that means demise list it well and it also is. It's a it's a false choice that some very rich and powerful people win either way on in in and get to keep some power and some corruption no matter whether the right or the left win and that's but system is the systems in a place where it's really really hard for a gary johnson bernie sanders jesse ventura sort of an exception. There's a whole other discussion. But there's every once in a while gary johnson or a bernie sanders gained some traction in a way. That's interesting bill bradley. Did you know when he ran against gore and When he was totally you know as out there as ran out of the left right. False linear choice but every once in a while back. Yeah yeah but they end up go. They just don't usually gain traction even bernie and rand. Paul numbers are awful. Bernie's are better in donald trump. Just being so they do have like he's got sixty percent i know and you know. He's got hillary's firewall. Is the south and it probably will be But as bernie said he hasn't gone down there and talked a lot. He's got to let those people know who i know in alabama. Just seven thousand people. I think are you paying a new japan. Pro wrestling then joined the japan. Pride podcast starring bethany rupel and heavier machado with an eye for the action in an eye for the story. We'll keep your breast of all. New japan shows both in japan and also covering their american expansion with new japan strong. And i'll watch all the matches so bethany doesn't have to and i'll watch all of the abuse she matches. Wait a minute script that listen to our weekly podcast exclusively with the pw. Torch vip membership become a member at pow torch dot com slash. Kgo v i p so. I know i'm with you. I'm i'm from people come see you vote for you and i'm not. I'm not shown my hand a lot in this discussion. And 'cause i just wanna take in what's happening you know and And see where things go. But i think there's things about donald trump that are very unhealthy and awful that he says i also understand why he is intriguing fascinating to a big part of the electorate. When you look at the people standing next to certain taps into certain portion of our society but you also said some things that make a lotta sense those but even if you're anti hillary or anti obama they say things that make sense even if you're not for ever everybody's going to have something. The question is for president of the united states. She has his stuff. I'm on trade relations with other countries. We have that free trade. we can't be paying for all. These terrorists have a trade deficit with all these countries. And we don't we don't you know do they. The run here. I i'm fascinated. Uh i don't know. I'm fascinated with when trump says i was against the iraq war than against it. Now i was proven right and you know the he talks a big game but you would think if you never heard him talk about war you would think from all the other bluster and bravado that he'd be he'd be where rubio is and hillary are in that. Yeah you gotta send them send some troops in there and and and chris christie. y'all god. Yeah yeah marty yup and so. There's yeah i mean the the the i mean. Obviously some politicians say what they think will get them votes even though they know it's really low iq statements and then sometimes you're left wondering whether they even know that what they're saying is just playing to some low comedy nominated cause some somebody on their staff said will help you get votes but with trump. It's that's the thing that i think contracts because you have the republican party forty nine percent. The latest poll. I said the latest poll. I saw in favor of trump and he is absolutely the opposite of the general vibe in the republican party about war and over so that that's what that's when you lead going. This is the most fascinating political season it. There's no there's no nothing predictable right now about anything you know it. There's no you can't predict what's gonna happen next and here you know a lot of people don't realize about donald trump Compared to the other candidates all those other candidates running like you know traditional campaigns with all these different advisors and you know all all of this and that kids none of that he just out there and toss says what you know where you learn stuff of lots of the the shows the cable network networks cable news. Shows like that yeah. I think there's actually here interviewing alex jones. Yeah i know. I think i think the the dumbest things said in this campaign by any candidate with five percent or more of the vote have come from trump and i also think some of the most some of the more compelling statements that somebody needed to say also have come from trump. And it's hard to reconcile those. And i think a lot of people are struggling with that. I think there's are taking into consideration the power of cult of personality. Wade right right and somebody. Who is that authoritarian in. Just i think people. Just there's there's a sense of trump will take care of us. He says he'll make us great. He made a great building. I just i just. I've got to throw in with him because he doesn't sound like all these other politicians who are sounding rehearsed and handled and his way. He's kind of the anti hillary. He's the anti rubio the anti bush. He's the anti candidate it's fat. Whatever happens whether it becomes president or not. it's this. There's going to be documentaries and books written about. What did they say about america at this point to say about him. Fasting sean with our with time left here. Let's lift making murderer. I watched i watched the documentary and you know had a whole range of emotions guilty. Not guilty steve avery. And it's the netflix documentary. Everybody's heard of it. And i finished it and then i read articles and i start learning about. You know more about what was left out. And there's some jaw dropping things that were left out that are pretty incriminating on every and and you know i just i kind of i wanna keep reading more. But i'm kind of at a point righteous. I don't know. I feel like i probably wasn't. I didn't watch a documentary. Made by people who were as intellectually honest. As i would wish for. But at the same time i think it's shined a spotlight on some corners of the judicial system. That some good will come of it because no matter who is guilty or not. There's things that are really screwed up about the process and due process and there are certain like the like if you if you're looking at like Some point of view of a mansi grace prosecutors point of view and Just totally narrow buying like you. Think this person's guilty and it doesn't matter. Because i like watching the five on socks the other day yeah And they were discussing the fact that yeah. It's obvious restrained. But that's okay he's guilty. That's absolutely ridiculous to be. That's ridiculous to me. What about the rule of law. What about the justice system. Sometimes people have to go free that are guilty to keep the integrity of our justice system. Wait yeah no is. There was reasonable doubt all day long it was more than reasonable doubt and the decade might be guilty but that poor kid branded desi both of them have a seventy iq. That's lethal it mentally handicapped and that poor kid. His lawyer lets them. I know i mother allows them. There's mother must not be completely Too terribly bright either for allowing him to be questioned by the police alone. You don't die. The whatever even knew plus two hearts what. You know inconsistent. Yeah bless their hearts. And and then the lawyer google whatever the hell. His name was I Public defender does guy who smiled every time he saw camera. Okay yeah the with the blonde hair horrible. Oh just embarrassing. I mean yes he the been like. I mean talk about like like this seduce sherry Co responsibility is to his client. But you wouldn't have known it by watching that why i mean. He basically coerced his client. That you know Confessing the murder and you saw like now kelly. You know You know Vip drawn like you know The bad and all that stuff. I mean it was just it was. It was sickening and the planting of the key. All of that to the lies were cut it. I don't understand like people are doing wasn't honest on very making out but like that was a long as toil wait. Okay and the side of the prosecution was already said to the media and and you know what i mean that there were two sides put out well. There were two sides. Put out. But i mean the more that i read about it the more upset i do get with the people who made the two women who made the documentary. I really. I don't think it was an intellectually honest portrayal of the most. I think they use really bad judgment in some of the editing. They did of the transcripts and some of the some of the details. Come out in the investigation. The i think they needed to lay out the timeline better. Why why was the garage floor. Bleached at the time that it was. That's a question. Objectively that should have been dealt with more in the audience should have known more about it. I mean under the impression been that they had a deer 'cause it was deer season about the time. I was under the impression that beer that they on the beer was that in. The documentary was that in the documentary. I while i mean i remember it. Well they were cleaning. 'cause it was deer blood sounded a in the garage. But not one speck of edna or any blood and book. I don't you could use bleach. You put at all in there then. Put a black right in there. You're gonna find some blood if somebody was killed in there right right. No indefinitely news was seventy. Iq's are not going to be able to pull off what they said. was pulled off. I'm just not by avery. Could be guilty but not that kid. Thank you for listening to the wade. Keller pro wrestling post show. Did you know that patriots. You can get this show with the ads plugs removed for just four dollars and ninety nine cents a month and enjoy our podcasts on. Whatever podcast app. You're using or directly through the patriotic check. Checkout full details at patriot dot com slash. Pw torch vip. That's patriot dot com slash. Pw torch vip wipe away the adds to the weight. Keller podcast po shows and pw torch daily casts. That's fourteen progressing podcasts. Per week with the ads and plugs removed for just four dollars. Ninety nine cents per month support us and enjoy a streamlined. Listening experience fred is guilty of anything. He's not guilty of what he was coerced into saying to authorities figures who grilled him for hours upon hours upon hours manipulated him. I just. I'm not saying if i think the women who made the documentary had a point of view that led to some choices that didn't serve the viewers having the same option to discard or include some of the things that they chose to discard it. Include and it's a tough choice but they had ten hours and from what i've read. I think there's some things should have been included in the documentary without question. That weren't not because it would change your view of whether avery was guilty or not necessarily it might but because it's too important to leave out and not give to your viewers feels like you have and again. There's just me you know diving into reading a dozen articles on this from people who who are very much saying whether whether steven avery is guilty or not. Here's some things that were left out that that if you read the transcripts of the trial no nobody should have left out and it should have been there for the. But it's a separate discussion. It is a separate discussion of how screwed up that judicial system was and how there's whatever was left out of the documentary. That's not the major issue. The major issue is what's an underage kid. Do being grilled with out in attorney or with that public defender who seemed way more interested in fame and camera shining on them then serving a client and you could go on and on fifteen things in that documentary that are horrible reflections on the process. Absolutely stomach kournikova. But i just say this. I think it's important for people to not think that ten hour documentary told them everything that they need to know to have a strong opinion on every odd. There was not was not be us wade but the like. It's not like they were put there lies. I mean like. I mean these de some of that was just footage was was. The poll was police footage. I'm stipulating to that. I'm with you sean. Trust me i'm not. I'm in no way defending that. I and i'm not saying that any new information. He races the abhorrent conduct of the official said to me. That's amazing to be the corruption from top to bottom everybody covering everybody's ask you even even the next county over. That reminds me of like three bachchan freemasonry type stuff. Yeah yeah no. It's i wanna i wanna learn more about it. I want somebody. I want there to be a good book written on it. I i'd love to see another documentary on it. I heard i thought i heard that netflix is going to fund a follow up You know either other different so you know to kind of go all right. Here's what the reaction was. Here's what people said was left out. Let's whether it's original two women or or different people go all right here. Here's some things that now that we sat back and looked at these ten hours. Here's some other things that we we want to talk about in. Give some attention to that. People who looked at it through a different lens thought was important. And but but it's not about. It's not about steve. Avery alone and this poor guy needs to be let out of prison. You can feel that way. That's a legit part of the spectrum. Us but the larger issue is what this can't happen. This can't be the way we decide who's guilty or not guilty exactly. And that's what the two women who made the battery say we were here to shine a light on screwed up prosecute prosecutorial processes in the system. It wasn't meant to be it wasn't meant to make you. Somebody who was informed as a jury was in some ways more informed because they knew some things that were thrown out but in other ways. They're not gonna but in other words they're not nearly informed enough because there's way more that that jury saw anybody who watched the documentary saw and like according to according to one juror that can ford recently like the jerry like one. Jerry was excused. One juror was excused up Which is shown in that series but one for for recently saying that hell they were scared to come back with not guilty or a hung jury verdict because they were scared of the repercussions they would get a little toy. Yup the small town will. I be framed while i you know. Yeah i mean yeah that's why this is. Just that's what. I mean when i say it's a lot more than just about two people sitting in prison. Who may or may not belong there. And that's not to say that's not part of the discussion. But it's not necessarily even the main discussion in a way. There's a big macaroni pro. Let's what about like okay. The best way to prove that they're innocent to find out who really killed the wasn't right. Well yeah that's the thing. There's no alternative i have. I know there's some articles out there with alternative theories. And i just haven't delved into them. is is Anonymous i thought their stuff on it. Yeah so they put out a lot of stuff. I mean there's and you know people say what you want about those guys but they'll get to the bottom or something. Yeah yeah. And that's what i think's gonna happen. I think there's such curiosity about this. There is a On iheartradio there's a there's a podcast from a reporter who was on the scene who who wanted to get some. He wanted to put things out there that were not in the documentary that he felt from covering it in real time himself absolutely needed to be in that documentary and so people can check that out too. I recommend in fact. I've got it. I haven't listened to much of it yet. But i have it on my phone and again. It's it's certainly an alternate alternative perspective to To what the documentary presented And bring it up. Here is the name of it. I think it's called Reporting a murderer. I think is the name of the show so Let's a murderer is available. Radio and i would just say before you declare yourself an expert on this. Make sure you do more than just watch. The documentary doesn't mean you're gonna come away with oil up. yeah no. i'm kind of speaking to people out there. Like you hear the general public. I watch a documentary. Here's my opinions on it. And all i'm all i'm saying is there's so much more out there and you may land in the same place that you are in now after reading a lot more on it but you kind of like watch loose change and all of a sudden here. An expert on nine eleven happened at nine eleven. Yup yup so yeah. I think i think i. Just it's a it's i was gonna go to a friend of the an internal actually and That's that's all do you know yeah at least for now so Yeah well he. That's part of kids. You know kids mom on the phone. When he was i going to go to prison Or was fearing it. He's like but i'll miss wrestlemainia. You don't like that. That was a memorable memorable line in that. I was already like had to punch. That was kicked in the nuts. But i heard that i was like. Oh yeah show. I mean it's i feel like emotionally attached to that. Thank like i talked to the brother. It's you know. And i i lived in like the small town mike that up the minnesota i know the exact family like the avery's that everybody like you know makes fun of and can point out to make themselves feel better. You know i mean you know. Maybe they're they're a little simpler and you know you know a lot of their. I q was very i it just you know it's really easy to like. And plus they look at the guy that you know. he took. The cat decided. That was enough to really. Just you know they're like you texted me that Yeah yeah he's gonna the fire after the cat. So i was there and that's not that's not s But that doesn't mean he obviously to rape anybody. That doesn't mean necessarily kill anybody but it does say something about the aloha torch faithful. This is kelly wells host of wt talks and x t. Every thursday you can hear me and my gang of idiots tom style. Shares thoughts from the live tapings and torture recap limbered as well as a rotating cast of guests cover the matches and events in annex t live on usa network search vw. Torch even apple podcasts or your podcast app to subscribe or listen on demand. Cbs tire pw torch daily schedule at pw torch daily pass dot com. Cheers back from all the details sean. There's still the story of a guy that i think. I haven't heard anyone dispute that. The evidence proved he didn't commit the original crime that he served eighteen years for that. That seemed sure seems opening. Shot that doesn't seem like that's a debatable. Point on the stairs and understand that the prosecutor or whatever the detectors still wouldn't have made it. No i don't we don't we don't do it even though. Dna group any that right. But let let me roy right. But i think there's a general consensus. Yeah we're trusting the dna evidence that this other guy did it not him. But what's this. What makes the documentary when we get away from all the muck and of our in our opinions and all that it's still a fascinating story that in such a short span of time. A guy who went to prison for eighteen years for a crime commit then is is is put on trial for a similar but worse version of the same thing at a time that he suing the county for thirty six million dollars. Wait people people might not have caught this or understood this when they were watching and it was said. Yeah but it wasn't just the county on the line for that money. If he would have won there was personal liability like that lank and some of those others. Yes saw money was going to be so and all these incidences the kid that guy the brother and whoever that sound via call they they go pretty. They go right to the vehicle. One hundred and seventy acre junk yard. yep it's just right there when they have a car crusher right their way come on man and they've got these twigs and you know Three inches and stuff put over half ass. Put over like it's trying to hide it. Come on man. You can't tell me that does stink pile away. Yeah i know. I know that the boy of the ex boyfriend at the brother or the roommate i mean at the at the the message is being checked deleted after she was supposedly dead. Yup i i love to. This is the thing that gets me. They kept saying steve. Avery was the last one to see her alive and usually the last one to see that's it they kept saying. I'm like how do you know he was the last one if he didn't do it. The last person to see her alive unless murder had is closed was someone other than steve. Avery this if they should have said he's the last person we know who has identified as having seen her. He was the last one that we know of. Who is saying yes. I saw her when she was alive. No one that we know of her since but that doesn't make him a murderer like there was obviously if you do it. Somebody else saw her alive. I thought that's the weirdest thing but this is why i don't. I think this is just the beginning. And i hope i i want more people with more money crack dude. Somebody's gonna crack way. Yup yup an hour. If they don't crack there's going to be there's going to be someone who makes sense of this in a way where we go. I okay all those things. You just said sean i. I am aware of them. I acknowledged them. And i can also at the same time. Believe firmly that steve. Avery did it. And but that that that story hasn't been told yet so or or there's all these coincidences steve. Avery was calling her and from blocked numbers and colder multiple times. It wasn't talked about in the documentary unstable. Maybe maybe there's aspects of personality for spending eighteen years in prison for something. You didn't do where he's like screw it. I'm going to do it if i paid the price. No one's gonna convict me again. Because i'm suing the city. He got delusional or drunk or did something all of a sudden like okay. I guess in that circumstance. I can see how he would do it but all these other. Coincidences are so weird. But i'm convinced. Now he did it. And i think you can get there with more info but you also need to have some of these alternate theories played out and somebody. There's new there's some somebody chapter and this is the positive part about that about that series coming out now. It's just like a couple of lawyers is ogden. There's like millions of is on in people are finding things and pointing things out to the lawyers and the lawyers Like dave saw the key a picture of her right before you know like ma saw the tape isn't a bunch of keys on it like and and it was. It was different than the keychain bass sound with the described. I ki- with only Only alpex on. I mean so. There's a lot of people that are are are investigating. There's a lot of sleuths out there that are trying to get to the bottom of this and somebody's going to i put. I put some links up on my twitter. Feed at the wade keller links to articles written in milwaukee by some reporters out there. You know in in in wisconsin covering this and try to debunk some conspiracy theories and look at an and presenting details on things that were not in the documentary aspects of what was testified to regarding the blood and the truck and how it was how he had a cut on his finger that was consistent with the type of drops of blood that would be in that truck and and and that everything just weren't a in the documentary either way. Other than we got to hear the defendant. The defense attorneys make their case on it but then like the needle in in the in the the blood vial. Apparently they all had the only way to get flooding in those things. If you stick a needle in sports they don't they don't put they. They they put a needle. They use the syringe and poke the They poke the stop or so. It was like oh my god the thing is been punky compromised puncture. It was punctured so the to put the blood in the defense. But here's the problem. That doesn't account for how the seal was broken on the evidence box begin with right but i. I read an article that kind of covered that too and in my my take isn't that i just put tape over scotch tape. Yeah well just. All i'm saying is i i just forever question i have. There's somebody out there answering it and then but it's not like where i'm like. Okay definitively now. I know i just. There's my only point is might not my only my big point. Here is ten hours of making a murderer on. Netflix does not make you an expert on this. It does enter you into a if you're fascinated by it enters you in with a good chunk of information that requires a lot more information to have a strong opinion on it that that's my take after watching it and then reading what i've read about it in listening to the podcast. I've listened to on it. I think it's a good introduction to something that's a lot more complicated with a lot of pieces. Left out that are important that lead you to a different conclusion. But they'll lead you to a more educated conclusion. Either way in that. But i i don't i don't have a strong opinion. Shot whether he did it or not. I don't know i just know. There's enough complications out there. That things that i thought watching. The documentary were really. Here's the thing even the even the ones the ones that are Are would like to He sure that he is guilty. Based like pretty much everybody at least two still frame just in case all totally i. Don't i think that is a. I think that happens all the time. All over the country cops sure he did it so let's make sure he gets convicted. And that's not right right sure. He raped that girl to. That's the problem. That's why you know what's saying. I'd rather see Ninety nine guilty men go free than one innocent man go to prison and and that's that's what we're system set up and then someone goes well but what if that person was the ninety nine guilty wants to go free rape and kill more women and yeah i mean. That's that's tough but there's not a better answer out there you can't you can't put justice in the hands of prosecutors Rigging rigging the evidence you just that came with with their with their job and how they're trained is to get a conviction it has nothing to do is to find the truth. Yeah it's all about getting the conviction yep And that is paramount to that yup. So they don't wanna hear any of that goes against certain air. That's exactly and i think you know. I mean look at the west memphis three. They had to file an alford plea and agreed not to soothe. The you know the state over you know because the basically they're going to be granted a new trial and the prosecutor even set chances. Are they're fantastic. So they just wanted to follow this alford plea which is crazy. You know very very rare saying actually. Yeah but that's a whole nother story. Well there's a lot of parallels between the two stories. Thank you for listening to the weight. Keller pro wrestling podcast. be sure to subscribe. Also if you haven't yet subscribed to the keller pro wrestling poll shows this show. The podcasts have our blue logo the way killer pro wrestling po shows have our red logo. Just search wade. Keller and apple podcasts or wherever listen oppressing podcasts and click subscribe to the red logo and you can download our raw smackdown. Eighty w and sometimes annexed t po shows on joined by a co host to add different to the analysis for the show where we talked to live callers onsite correspondent who are in the building. Tell us what did not air on tv and we also answer mailbag questions. Those shows are available for download within a few hours after the shows and on monday wednesday and friday nights. So there's a fast turnaround to get your fix so check it out. That's the wade. Keller pro wrestling po. Show just search wade. Keller you can also stream the show live at wade. Keller post show dot com about five minutes after. The show's end on monday wednesday and friday night have you have you watched the jinx okay. I just got. It just didn't really really get you know. Like i don't know should i know i just think people who liked serial the podcast and making murder recommend the cereal. Yeah it's it's good. It's good it's worth listening to But it's on it's it's You can read a review on rotten tomatoes. But the jinx's is out there and people who opinion i respect safe. You enjoyed making murderer really enjoyed the jinx I've heard good and bad terms of whether you end up with a more true version of if you end up with more true version of reality then you did with making murder. I've heard different views on that. But still If you enjoy this kind of real life documentary on a real life murder then i'll check it out. Yeah there's some things that i like that i left out. Just out of nuncio that. I'll that's it. I know it's not fair for list. Say that. yeah yeah you know mean. It's really like i mean kind of sensitive stuff you know about about about this case making murder. Yeah okay yeah yeah. yeah yeah. Well that's all all the more in. That's where i. I'm not taking a strong. I don't i just don't have a strong opinion with the information that i have with that the information that i have which includes making murder and then a bunch of articles and podcasts. I i really i just. I have several inches in some leanings. But the more. I learn the more. I really really into it austin. We talked about an hour and a half. Wow and he just did a podcast to talking about it. So yeah no. I mean it. It is the podcast of any call me right after. It's great it's i. I will my final word on on this is it's i opening for people who thought and i don't know how many people thought this that the judicial system had a way of working fairly. And you know that there were enough checks and balances to make things. Go the right way i i just i think most people realize that that did it. Screwed up Just like they know that politicians are full of it. Yeah it's just that when you get such blatant consternation of it like inside slapping you right in the face mad. You know what i mean so. It's not like people already though that that kind of stuff happened. It's just for to be so blatant and just so brazing about it. And it's like you can't touch butane talk. Radio goodbye sean. We're back on the air that we got ticked off our Our block talk studio after two and a half hours. That's the limit. So we're here to kind of wrap up a little smoother than you getting. Cut off mid sentence in your In your Wrap up of of making murder and our discussion on that. But if a fun discussion documentary. And i i think i hear i mean i said it a minute ago just it is absolutely i think. Essential for there to be transparency in the in the criminal justice system and i think this documentary for any flaws at has or any revelations about the people that it seemed to be defending That might upset people. It added a sense of transparency to in in a dose of reality into a screwed up system and some people who have a little more power than they ought to the absolutely. Then i honestly. I've never seen a show or how documentary. Tv show series. Whatever that's really That's pretty there's so much discussion about every show is doing something about it. I mean dr drew nancy great. I mean everything. I i am. I mean it's if you really feel like left out. I mean it's one of those shows. It just permeates society to a degree that in this fragmented social media culture. We live in where you can completely miss out on ninety percent of what someone else's pop culture is these because there's no time magazine. Who's on the cover. We're all talking about to cover time magazine or we all watch the nightly news or we'll i'll watch the tonight show. That doesn't happen anymore. It's weird that net flicks made this made got the country all talking about one thing. Not like fifty million subscribers. Yeah but you know raw. Seen by is not is available in one hundred million cable systems and the available on a one hundred twenty or whatever it is. I mean so i'm yup netflix's huge but it's not it's not nbc. It's not the tonight show on nbc in one thousand nine hundred five right. But here's the thing with that laid. There was like three networks. There was probably five like soon. Okay you're three networks and maybe a. Uhf station that you could get in. So maybe four or five. Total depending on where you lead Tv stations to choose from nineteen seventy five. Now there's a two hundred two hundred choices for you to tune into like those monster ratings of the past are just not. It's not just that thing of the past and that's my point is making murder everybody's watching it at different times but everybody's borrowing nave netflix's password if they don't have netflix to watch this so they could be part of the conversation. That's what's amazing about it. But and sean thank you so much for being on the show. I think we'll we'll doing our our ten minutes and then you know gone like that. Maybe never he never so. But i mean man. What a range of topics. Yeah yeah. I mean that's probably a little bit different than what your what your listeners are. Used to on a thursday. Yep well those who don't those who aren't interested had an hour and a half wrestling talk and then they can tune out. You know we didn't go off into that until we went off of the the live Is right exactly. Yep yep i agree well good well come on back on again soon. 'cause you're You're the the experience in lens through which you watch this industry. I respect and you know that and i do you. Yeah well thank you. Thank very much all right. What we came up you know about and things back and forth you know each other over the years from the time i was you know we were both really young so sat so kind of know that but i guess not necessarily i mean our show our listeners ships grown and people don't know our background i probably should. I don't know. I hate to just repeat that all the time and really who i mean in a way. It's it's relevant but in a way it's what are we saying about today that you know. What's the merit of our opinions today. That matters but you're right. I mean the fact that we kinda came up and saw similar things and knew each other. And if the discussion chaman kind up kinda ended up thinking like on quite a few things at least understand where each other is coming from. You know we. Don't i mean obviously. We don't agree on certain things. You know on everything. But i mean i even if i don't agree with you i understand where you're coming from. Yeah yep same here. Good well let. Let's do this again and wrestling. Never getting wrestling and politics never give us a a shortage of topics to talk about. Talk about anything. You on dog sean. Tell people your your twitter so people can follow you on there. And i know there's one just like it that's not you. It's at the real x. Plock t. h. e. r. e. a. l. x. p. a. c. You got the blue checkmark. I have the blue checkmark in billions of followers. So that's the real you and anything else. You wanna plug anything else. Any appearances or anything causes. I learned so much man. I'm mirrors home. yup yup. You know. I'll find something else. 'cause i mean that's to me well it's a you know a doing your part like when when when you're able to like i've been given a gift up. People actually listened to me. So i might as well tell them something worth here and you know Not just suck it and you know stupid. You know i mean loves the road stories and the you know the crazy stories and everything but i mean i have some of the stuff that i that i deal with as well so anyways i always a pleasure my friend. Thank you sean. Thanks so much for your time. And we'll We'll talk again to all right buddy. Thanks we're now on patriot. That's right you can support us and get benefits at patriotair dot com slash p w torch. Vip that's patron dot com slash p w torch vip. We have three tiers four dollars and ninety nine cents six dollars ninety nine cents and nine dollars ninety nine cents. The first here gives you all the weight. 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Ballot Battles (with Michael Waldman)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:15:59 hr | 1 year ago

Ballot Battles (with Michael Waldman)

"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm preet Berrara. We've always had people who had to demand the effective right to vote or to be represented and other people have been trying to stop it and that debate throughout American history is playing out right now both in recent years but in recent weeks and months around the corona virus. That's Michael Waldman. He's the president of the Brennan Center for Justice at Nyu law school a non-partisan law and Policy Organization that works to reform engage defend. America's Democratic Systems Waldman a constitutional law. Scholar lawyer is also the author of several books most recently the Second Amendment and the fight to vote. And that's exactly what Waldman joining me to discuss today. The story of the right and the fight to vote in America as the country gears up for November's election in the of a pandemic we dive into the contentious history of this constitutional right to make sense of today's battles over. The fairness and safety are voting. Systems. That's coming up stay tuned. Hey folks cafe. Were working to bring you thoughtful analysis on the latest legal and political news especially in these uncertain and stressful times. So if you haven't already sign up for the cafe brief it's a free weekly newsletter featuring analysis by my former. Sdn Y colleague and friend Ellie. Hoenig plus you'll get links to special episodes despite the chaos we've got some projects in the pipeline that we hope to share with you soon and they're part of our larger goal making sense of the complicated issues that affect us all so to receive the weekly cafe brief newsletter and links to special episodes head to cafe dot com slash brief. That's cafe dot com slash brief. This question comes into tweet. From Jeff Lynch nine six seven who asks Hashtag ask pre pre you and and discuss your family's online learning experience any thoughts about the inequities of digital learning for the reported nineteen percent of students nationally without online access? What a school closures. Continue in the fall. Thanks Jeff. That's a great question and a very important issue. I will tell you that we consider ourselves extremely fortunate that our children able to continue their online learning to them. Earn High School. One is in college and it's not perfectly smooth but at least they're able to do it and we're very fortunate that we have the tools in WIFI access high internet speeds etc. Obviously the pandemic has been a horrible health crisis for a lot of people. Tens of thousands of Americans are dead. But the other thing as you point out in your tweet that has become clear through. The pandemic is how much inequity there actually is. And it's pulling back the curtain on some of the kinds of inequities that sometimes overlooked for example the inequities and how people get healthcare. How it's tied to their employment. And if they lose their employment through no fault of their own like millions of people have in the last month and they don't have healthcare. We've seen how the pandemic affects certain communities more harshly than others. We've seen that in. Many communities did death rate among African Americans disproportionately high and obviously as you point out with respect to learning. There are lots and lots of problems. You may recall. There was a big debate in New York and maybe another school district's about closing down the schools in the first place balancing on the one hand the idea of making sure that we restrain the spread of the krona virus but on the other hand understanding that poor families relied on schools not just for learning but also for meals so there are a lot of equity that are being exposed by the corona virus. Glad you mentioned this one. I think in the long term school districts are going to have to think about how to deal with situations like this and understand that access to high-quality Internet is an important feature of learning. The good news is there are some school districts who are trying to make a dent in that even amid the corona virus in Los Angeles for example authorities are trying to get digital devices to up to about one hundred thousand students in the Miami Dade County Public School System. They've already distributed more than eighty thousand mobile devices for distance learning and I think something like eleven thousand smartphones to serve as Wifi hotspots. I don't know if that'll be enough and I'm sure there are many school districts who are aren't in a position to do that kind of distribution but when this pandemic is over. I think a lot of hard questions. You're going to be on the table for a lot of people in the education business. This next question comes in an e mail. Marc Milner who writes can't Biden invoke the equal time doctrine from the networks to counter trump's increasingly political daily corona virus briefing slash campaign rallies. I think it'd be effective to have him broadcasting after trump each day countering the lies instigations and other. Well that's an interesting question. And a lot of people have taken the position rhetorically that what trump is really doing. Every day is not providing important health information economic news but actually engaging campaign activity. I've made that ARGUMENT RADIO PERSONALITY DINO DOLLARS. May that argument even the Wall Street Journal editorial page has essentially called a campaign style activity. That does a disservice to donald trump into the country. It's important to distinguish two things as answer your question. Though when you refer to equal time doctrine. That is different from something that came to be known as the fairness doctrine the fairness doctrine as you may know was abroad. Fcc Policy now defunct that essentially required radio stations and television stations to air opposing political views. So that there was equal time. The fairness doctrine is something conservatives in particular over many years fought to get rid of and succeeded a number years ago you may recall a conversation. I had with historians Kevin Crews and Jillian Seltzer sometime ago about the significance of eradication of the fairness doctrine. It is among other things we gave rise to rush limbaugh and gave rise to Fox News Now. The equal time rule is something quite different in very specific and it refers to political candidates for office and that essentially applies to appearances on television or radio. That could be perceived as an endorsement or a campaign related appearance but it does not apply to bona fide news events or bona fide. News interviews. Obviously lots of candidates who are running for office often are actually in office and can provide legitimate bona fide news interviews on a regular basis. And there's a gray area between whether or not something is a campaign appearance versus a news interview and obviously a lot of politicians take advantage of that gray area but doesn't enforcement matter notwithstanding what we think about what trump is doing daily at the corona virus briefings. It would be hard to argue that the President United States in the midst of a pandemic when there is news that is being revealed doctors who come to the podium when there are policies that are being announced. It's hard to say that whatever you think of the rhetoric and whatever you think of the gray area that is not a bona fide news event. There's more debate as to whether or not cable news stations in their discretion should air them whether or not. It's a valuable service for the public. But on the narrow question of whether or not violates equal time doctrine or the equal time rule. I think the president probably wins that and by the way one last point. It's not clear to me that Joe Biden has sought that kind of time that you're referring to his campaign continues to put Internet ads. He continues to make some appearances. But but I don't know that he is actually seeking to appear on television every day and it's not clear to me that if you ask for it he wouldn't get it. I'M NOT SURE. The networks would be required under the equal time rule to provide it but they might think it would be good for business and good for ratings for themselves anyway. This question comes in a tweet from Gen Danielle question for pre Perahera if the USPS the United States Postal Service is eliminated a longtime dream of some conservatives. Does that also mean that mail fraud is no longer a crime? Hashtag ASK CREEK SO I love this question. It's a great question and something I happen to know. A little bit about as people may not the MAIL FRAUD. Statute provides pretty broad authority for prosecutors to bring criminal actions against individuals or entities for essentially any kind of fraud so long as it involves a mailing. That's what gives you the Federal Jurisdiction. The mail fraud statute along with the wire fraud. Statute is one of the most widely used in the federal system. If you WANNA look it up for fun it appears a title eighteen. Us Code section thirteen forty one and essentially allows you to target for criminal prosecution anyone having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud and while of course yes it makes it clear. Didn't connection with such a fraud if you deposit any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service your subject to criminal sanction hence anything you've seen through the USPS can cause you to be liable if it's in connection with criminal fraud but it also says very clearly the following quote or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier that's in the statute to sometimes congress's smart so even if the USPS is eliminated which. I hope it will not be a lot of reasons. Including for mail in voting in the election in November would be criminals who decided to use Fedex or ups or any other private carrier would still be subject to criminal prosecution under the Mail Fraud Statute. Thanks for your question. Stay tuned there's more coming up right after this. This ad is a warning. Our democracy is under attack from the United States Supreme Court in the middle of a deadly global pandemic people across Wisconsin. We're planning to vote absentee to keep themselves and their families safe but the night before the election five Republican justices on the Supreme Court told thousands of people they would have to choose between risking their lives and forfeiting their right to vote. This supreme court favouring Republican interests over democracy is nothing new the gutted. The Voting Rights Act. They invited billionaires and corporations to spend unlimited amounts trying to influence elections gave a green light to gerrymandering voter. Id Laws and voter roll. Purchase now progressive movement is rising up to fight back. Because it's quite possible to Wisconsin case won't be the last twenty twenty showdown over voting rights to be settled in the courts. And we simply can't trust this court to put aside partisan views and protect people's right to vote. Our courts are becoming too political. It's time to say enough. Learn more about how you can join the fight by visiting demand justice dot org slash preet. That's demand Justice Dot Org Slash P R e E. Hiring is challenging. But there's one place you can go. Were hiring is simple fast and smart. A place where growing businesses can connect to candidates. That place is ziprecruiter dot com slash. Preet ZIPRECRUITER sends your job to over one hundred of the Web's leading job sites and they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job. You can even add screening questions to your job listing so you can filter candidates and focus on the best ones. That's why the team cafe uses Ziprecruiter to find our next writers and producers. Ziprecruiter is so effective that four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day and right now to try ziprecruiter for free. My listeners can go to ziprecruiter dot com slash preet. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash free ziprecruiter dot com slash pres ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire wave is a free easy to use financial software that helps freelancers consultants and small business owners. Make move and manage their money bringing them closer to financial success. Take Chris. Chris started his own business three years ago. He's been using wave ever since he was never confident about the financial aspects of running his own business but since discovering wave he was so relieved to find a service that made accounting so straightforward waves free accounting receipt management and invoicing tools. Give your business the professionalism. It deserves have employees. Wave can pay them directly automate payroll tax filings as with experience overseeing a lot of people they can be tricky trying to keep track of a big group which is why waves technology helps cut down on that. Pesky red tape. It's time to ditch the excel shoe boxes filled with receipts and lost invoices and started growing. Your Business. Set Your Business up for financial success by signing up for your free account today at wave APPS DOT com slash prete wave APPs dot com slash. Preet my guest this week is Michael Waldman president of the Brennan Center Part Think Tank and advocacy organization. This policy institute focuses on protecting issues at the core of our democracy. Waldman has been a guest of the show before and helped us understand the tense debate around gun rights and the Second Amendment in America. Today he's back for a primer on voting perennially important topic but especially now with the presidential election in November and an ongoing pandemic we talk about how the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five pave the way for a true democracy. Why the Roberts court has taken a backward stance on voting rights issues and how to protect the integrity of our elections without falling into the misinformed mythology of voter fraud and whether voting by mail is the answer. That's next stay tuned. Michael Waldman thank you so much for being on the show once again. Thank you for having me so I have to begin as I always do in this age of covent. Nineteen with the question. How are you doing? How's your family? Thanks for asking. We're all doing fine. Not really used to this awful situation. I live in Brooklyn where the sound of sirens continues to be very present And it's never forget the human toll of what's going on but I hope you and your family doing okay. Yeah we're doing all right. I'm very lucky. We have a house outside the city. So we're we're doing as well as can be expected in these circumstances in a lot better than a lot of people still able to do my work. As I'm guessing you are a lot of people. Don't have that ability to keep working. You know the the ability to telework is one more way of revealing sort of the inequality in the class challenges in our in our society. You know the people who who are having the ride the subway and crowded platforms early in the morning or people who are going to work for all of us there people who are working in hospitals there people who are working in retail delivery remember Jesse Jackson used to talk about people who take the early bus rally. And it's it's the same thing and people are putting your health at risk and as we look to get out of this. Let's hope that we can use this to kind of reinforce the need to build a better society out of it so just to remind people you have expertise in so many things. This is your second time on the podcast. The last time we had you on we pick your brain on another issue. That's important the United States the second amendment and guns and gun safety and gun regulation in one very interesting and odd statistic in this age of Corona virus is that I believe it's the case that the month of March this year was the first march in a couple of decades where there was no school shooting. So yeah you're talking about silver linings Kind of perverse to say the least Yeah well you know you take what you can get. But that's true so one of the consequences of the virus is a new focus on on voting and how people get out to the polls and how he can make sure we have a free and fair election. We had some issues with respect to primaries over the last few weeks and a court battle multiple court battles out of Wisconsin. And I WANNA talk about all that but before we talk about voting by mail and and what your concerns are in the Brennan. Senators concerns are about the twenty twenty presidential election. I thought maybe since we have you and you know everything we would we do some background and talk about voting rights generally and why this is such a difficult thing to get right in this country and I guess my first question which I know addressed in other places you know. We've been doing this as a country for hundreds of years. Now how can we don't have it right? Why are we still fighting about something? So basic as how we vote and who gets to vote and under what circumstances. We're exactly right pretense when you look at the whole history of the country it turns out we've been fighting about the right to vote and who gets vote and really who has power from the beginning. It's always been an intense often very political battle going back to the very beginning of the country's history in it's really you know in the broadest sense. It's about how we build a a democracy but the very rules of voting and who gets to cast a ballot have been contested from the start. You look at the Declaration of Independence and that preamble written by Thomas Jefferson. And you know it didn't just break with Great Britain at what it did but it also articulated some basic values and it said the government is legitimate only when it rests on quote consent of the governed and that was at the time of really radical notion. Now Jefferson was a hypocrite and it wasn't true for so many people in this country at the time he wrote that he was being attended to by a fourteen year. Old Enslaved Boy. Sally hemmings younger brother but the idea was really powerful and at that moment we didn't have anything close to what would consider a real democracy. Only white men who owned property were allowed to vote and that was what they had inherited from England. But this kind of new revolutionary notion began to upend that from the from the very start and it was a real fight in seventeen seventy six in Pennsylvania when you go back and look. That was one of the states that had a real live revolution. Where kind of a mob stormed the State House. And they wrote the most radical constitution in the world. At that point Benjamin Franklin wrote the Constitution and the main thing it did was it extended voting rights to men without property and he was asked to defend this and Ben Franklin said look. There's a man who owns jackass. It's worth fifty dollars. So the man can vote then the jackass dies and the man is older and he's wiser but the jackass is still dead. So the man can't vote so Franklin asked who really then has the right to vote the man or the jackass pretty good one more reason. We Love Ben. Franklin will up in Massachusetts. They were writing your own constitution remember. These were individual nation-states. Basically and John Adams wrote that and people said to him. Hey why don't you do what they did? In Pennsylvania and eliminate the property requirement and. Adam said if we do that women will demand the right to vote. Leads of eighteen will demand the right to vote. Men who have not a farthing to their name will think themselves worthy of an equal voice in government and they will demand the right to vote. Adams said there will be no end of it and pretty soon. Everyone's GonNa want the right to vote. Yeah and that's basically the history of the country right there. In fact there was no end of it. And we've always had people who have had to demand the effective right to vote to be represented and other people have been trying to stop it and that debate throughout American history is playing out right now both in recent years but in recent weeks and months around the the krona virus. So let's fast forward from the founding about a century to right after the civil war. What breakthroughs and fixes did the country make just to go sort of fundamental civics for folks and do a refresher fundamental civics? But it's also something that was often covered up and we don't really learn that much so you know first will. Ironically the first big voting rights victory was to give the right to vote two white men without property in other words working class white men and that was in the eighteen twenties and thirties in the era of what they call Jacksonian democracy and so ironically angry white working class men were the first voting rights movement But then along came the civil war and Abraham Lincoln going into that war was not for voting rights for African Americans but the war changed him and and so many other people and by the end of the war there were hundreds of thousands of black men in the army in the Union army. And right after the surrender at APP. Matic's Lincoln gave a speech from the second floor window of the White House and which he laid out his goals for for after the war and he said you know I've been criticized for not extending the vote to black men in Louisiana and I now realize that criticism is right. We should have the right to vote. And he laid out some conditions on it and he told his cabinet was going to go even further but there was at least one person in the audience at the White House that day who understood the significance of what Lincoln had said John Wilkes booth was there and he gasped. When Lincoln said that to the person next to me that means citizenship that will be less speech. He will ever giver and he tried to get the guy next to him to shoot Lincoln on the spot and when he couldn't get the guy to do that he said then I will finish him off by God and two days later. He went to Fort Cedar now. Booth was not a Lincoln Fan before that and a previously had tried to think of how to kidnap him. But it wasn't fact. Lincoln's shift to voting rights. That was the thing that may booth act and there was a huge fight over the right to vote for men for former slaves after the civil war. It wound up being in the constitution. The Fifteenth Amendment said. You can't discriminate based on race and there was a flowering of democracy in the southwest voter participation rates up to ninety percent among black men and black people were elected governor and senator to Congress and then basically reconstruction ended. There was kind of a cowardly compromise to settle the eighteen seventy six election and you had the beginning of the Jim Crow era where new laws a new constitutions were put in place to take away the right to vote for black men in the south and all over the country and it rolled it back and one lesson is that this progress doesn't only go in one direction and love. The same issues arise over and over again and the things they put in place. Were rules that looked like maybe on their face they were neutral but were really very carefully aimed at disenfranchising some people and immigrants in the north as well and again. That's the same kind of trick we see over and over again. Give some examples of Jim Crow Laws? Well there were Paul taxes. Which meant you had to pay in order to be able to vote. And they were literacy tests which were implemented by local registrars and remember that a few years before it had been a crime to teach a black person to read. There's a catch twenty two. There's a catch twenty two. There were grandfather clauses which said that you can vote if your grandfather could vote and again if your grandfather was a slave. That was not so good and there were new rules. Some of which are still in place for what we call felony disenfranchisement saying that various kinds of crimes or criminal convictions. Mean you lose your right to vote. And in those days it was things like vagrancy and That kind of thing so there were a bunch of different rules and you know. They were not explicitly by race but that was absolutely an explicitly the intent and you had going from a real multiracial democracy in the south which threatened a lot of people to the Jim Crow era of very few people voting at all but real white supremacy and that was the dominant factor in American politics for decades. Really up until in a lot of ways up until nineteen sixty five when the voting rights act was passed. I was GONNA mention that next as we get along at century at a time before we get to the modern day best. Sat Prep Class. I've taken you know I mean we. It is the case though that even throughout this period people thought the right to vote was so important and so central to being an American. They thought about it for years and during the gilded age when you had all this new inequality and you had concentration of corporate power and suddenly people were moving into the cities and all the things we know about their the answer that people came up with was to expand the right to vote the seventeenth amendment which gave the right to vote for us. Senator was actually added to the constitution and that was their version of campaign finance reform. Because up until that point state legislatures had chosen senators and they were really corrupt. And you know standard oil would own one. Senator in the copper barons would own another senator and people felt that this right to vote was the way to overcome that And in the Nineteenth Amendment. You had women win the right to vote and you know we kind of tend to skip over that in some ways. There's been a little bit of attention to it because there's been an anniversary but a lot of text books say then women were given the right to vote. They weren't given anything it was. It was a a fight a campaign every bit as tough as brutally opposed as as the civil rights movement and so many of the tactics of protest and of pushing for social change. That we're all familiar with. We're actually pioneered by the suffrage movement. This I find to be an amazing story that I never learned until I researched it for my recent book. The fight to vote the day before the nineteen. Thirteen presidential inaugural woodrow. Wilson Arrived Union station in Washington expecting to be greeted by a big crowd and he got off the train and there was basically nobody there. There was the Princeton Glee Club. That was it and that. Was You know the New York? Times reported that they made up in enthusiasm what they lacked in numbers. You know they were they were in the tank for Wilson But finally Wilson's aide said to the host Where are all the people and they said? Oh they're down. Pennsylvania Avenue watching the suffrage parade and on Pennsylvania. Avenue was the first great protest march in the country's history in Washington. Dc It was five thousand women marching down Pennsylvania Avenue for the nineteenth amendment for the right to vote and they were led by a young woman on a white horse carrying a banner dressed as Greek goddess and her name was I knez Mulholland. And she's one of the amazing figures in American history that people don't know about. She was a recent graduate of Nyu School of law where you teach and where the Brennan Center is affiliated and five thousand women behind her and on either side one hundred thousand men. Most of drunk there were there for the inaugural and the the men started spitting and throwing things and broke through the police lines and beat up. The women hundred women went to the hospital. It was a huge deal. I Nasr Milholland. Had talked to fight her way through the crowd with her horse and it was a big deal the police chief of Washington. Dc had to resign the publicity for this overshadow. The presidential inaugural in many ways and immediately public opinion began to swing toward support for women. Suffrage seeing these marchers attacked violently attacked for peacefully demanding their rights. And you know it sounds just like Selma and you realize that this was years before Selma and it was years before so many of these tactics were so common and it still took several years but they won the right to vote and when the nineteenth amendment passed think about it it doubled the size of the electorate in terms of a constitutional guarantee. And so you know. We've we've had to wage this fight over and over again is part of the problem. Even though you and I and others talk about it in terms of a right to vote that there has been throughout American history sort of contrary feeling that voting is not a right but a privilege that needs to be earned. Is there any fairness to that? I think that's true and I think again going back to the John. Adams view of a small elite needs to hold on or that it's a privilege and the more broadly Democratic Small d democratic view. That it's all right right of citizenship or right that should belong to everybody and of course the woeful discrimination built into the system over many years on race has always been the greatest and ugliest example. Where the idea of voting as right is mocked and it continues to be that way. We really didn't have kind of true democracy in this country until black people fought for and won the voting rights act of nineteen sixty five. Which really broaden the franchise to everybody? So let's talk about that. So Lyndon Johnson takes over the presidency after Kennedy's assassinated he gets elected in his own right in sixty four and then helped to usher through passage of the voting rights. Act of nineteen sixty five which people learn about in school and certainly learn about it in las will explain why that was such a seminal piece of legislation. What was its primary Genius well rules put in place in the eighteen nineties to make it so that black people couldn't vote. Were still in effect. All across the south in the early nineteen sixties and you really had very very little ability for black people to vote and participate and when they tried to register to vote. They were met with violence and murder and terrorism. And everyone knew that it was both the most important and the hardest thing civil rights movement could get because it would create the power that would change things in so many different ways and the story of how the Voting Rights Act was enacted. As you know something I think people have a better sense of now. That was the movie. Selma there's certainly an understanding but it was this really fascinating interplay between politics of protests and the politics of insider deal making and public leadership all of which was required to get it done so you know in nineteen sixty four. Johnson broke through the filibusters from the south and with the civil rights movement. They got the civil rights of nineteen sixty four and in early nineteen sixty five Dr King and others came to him and said we must do voting rights now in. Johnston said not yet. It's too soon. We we have to get the great society through Congress and the timing is not right And King said and there are tapes. You know of the two of them. These two brilliant masterful southern politicians Lyndon Johnson and Martin Luther King Very Different. But they were both. That's what they both were dancing with each other. And there's a call in March of nineteen sixty five and Johnson never tells king that he's actually ordered the Justice Department to write the Voting Rights Act. Because they're going to introduce it and King never tells Johnson. Oh Yeah Watch what we do in some of this weekend but they recognized that they were going to have to show the country and show the world Dr King and John Lewis and the other civil rights leaders recognized. They would have to show the world. The brutality to dramatize it so on bloody Sunday. Is You know people do know. There was a nonviolent march. Across the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma Led by young John. Lewis and the state troopers and vigilantes attacked the marchers and sent so many to the hospital. John Lewis had skull fractured. It was all on television and that week there was a spontaneous nationwide mass movement for voting rights. All over the country and Johnson was both the the person that were pressuring but was also very savvy and letting the pressure build and then he did go before Congress a week later and propose the Voting Rights Act and gave one of the greatest speeches any presence ever given. He said but really. It's all of us. Who must overcome the crippling legacy of bigotry and injustice and we shall overcome shall overcome used the slogan the song of the protesters and It was extraordinary and they passed the Voting Rights Act and participation opened up and it wasn't just for black people was for non English speakers for for other communities as well and we really developed for the first time a truly wide and open democracy in this country. And you know there were. There were obstacles but this whole issue of voting rights. When I was in school it was kind of like in the history books. It wasn't current events that's changed. Yeah so the Act. Essentially did a number of things including barring election practices in requirements that would be discriminatory and one of the things about your rights. Act Did which I know. A lot of lawyers who practised civil rights law have cared about a lot. Is something called pre clearance section five of the Voting Rights Act which essentially requires certain states? That have a legacy of bad conduct on these issues on voting issues and access to the ballot that before they changed certain rules with respect to elections they have to get it cleared by the Department of Justice by the Attorney General. Why was that important? You're right the voting rights act. I think is considered the most significant civil rights law and that section pre clearance section. Five as it was known was the heart of that and what that said was. It's not enough to file a lawsuit after the fact states. That have a history of discrimination. Racial discrimination in voting have to get permission in advance to make changes in their laws or even in their practices of moving around polling places. And that sort of thing and that very fact of having to go to the Justice Department changed the conduct of officials all across the country and all across the south and You know there's there's the old line that consciences the the idea that someone somewhere maybe watching. That's basically what happened and it was. It was not a really big burden. It was not a big tyrannical Washington thing. It was not a big bureaucratic problem. But there were thousands of instances where things were stopped or or changed and it became something that people were very comfortable with and so when the voting rights act for example got reauthorized it had to get re passed by. Congress every number of years the last time it passed in two thousand five. I believe it passed ninety eight to nothing in the Senate. It was broad and bipartisan. George W Bush proudly signed it into law and the heart of that was was the pre clearance and that is unfortunately what the Supreme Court took aim at yes. New anticipated the ARC of my questioning. The Voting Rights Act against reauthorized reauthorize once under Reagan and then under Bush. And as you say with a lot of bipartisan consensus. It sort of becomes one of these things that it's hard to vote against a terrible vote if you say nay because it's part of what people understand you know the country about values relating to voting and civil rights and equal rights. Sit in the Supreme Court get's involved in the case call Shelby County versus holder which is decided in twenty thirteen. What does that do to the voting rights? Act well so so that gutted. The Voting Rights Act in in significant ways. By basically ending this pre clearance. And this was a case where in the courtroom when it was being argued justice. Scalia said I think it is attributed very likely attributable to a phenomenon that is called called perpetuation of racial entitlement. It's been written about whenever a society adopts racial entitlements. It is very difficult to get out of them to the normal political processes and people in the courtroom gasped when he said that and Scalia didn't write the opinion John Roberts wrote it and he was a bit more decorous but It was a five to four ruling. And Roberts said look that was then. This is now black. Voting rates in the age of Barack Obama in the south are just as high as white voting rates. Racism has changed. There's not racism the way there was before we don't need to do this and so we shouldn't be treating those states differently. Ruth Bader GINSBURG justice Ginsburg wrote a dissent there. That is really why we really know of her. Is the notorious RPG hump among other things? It was really powerful and was really her finding her voice and she said that is like standing in a rainstorm holding an umbrella and not getting wet and saying oh well. I'm not wet therefore I don't need an umbrella and it was a kind of a predictive question who was right. Who was who was right. Well I think the facts are pretty clear that Ginsburg was right within hours within hours. After the ruling states across the south began implementing laws to make it harder to vote rules to make it harder to vote and this of course I prayed. It's worth noting and you were so deeply involved in exposing this early even before the Supreme Court case your listeners may not know this chapter of your own career. This was not out of the blue. This came after about ten or thirteen years of real pressure to make it harder to vote in this country. That very much was on the right. The very much became a strategy of the Republican Party. I kinda think it started about two in the morning on election night in the year. Two thousand when we realized we had this ridiculous crazy situation where it was a tie in Florida and people on both sides kind of realized. Oh my gosh you can win an election by suppressing vote or by turning out more voters and the system by which we run elections in this country was clearly so rickety and so easy to abuse that it gave people an incentive to kind of try their hand and so you had overtime this small but very determined and well funded campaign to push for new laws to make it harder to vote all claiming quote voter fraud. Close quote that. This was necessary because of somehow there must be a lot of voter fraud. And that's where you came in and exposing this we got to know each other when I worked in the Senate and work on some of these issues some years ago. Can we talk about the court for second one can understand? Why as a partisan matter if you're with a particular party and you believe that enlarging the vote among certain populations will hurt your chance at winning elections and whether it's right or wrong or constitutional or not or just or unfair you can get. Why Party might have that proclivity on the court? Why would there necessarily be? Maybe there's not. Why would there necessarily be an ideological divide on these voting? Questions are the conservative justices. Ah during to some jurisprudence that causes them to vote a particular way these kinds of issues or was shelby county. Unique case well Shelby County. Unfortunately is not unique. You've had a series of rulings that breakdown along party lines in terms of who appointed the justices or somewhere along ideological lines where the Supreme Court has either ruled or fail to rule repeatedly in a way that makes it harder to vote or makes it harder to get representation and unfortunately more and more of the time. You can kind of trace this along. What party benefits I would say. Part of this is we and lawyers certainly prone to this. We can't really expect the courts to be the only savior of voting rights in the country over the years. They have not. They have now taken that role. You did have some event. In the nineteen sixties with the one person one folk cases but courts have tended to follow. Allow the political machinations of the rest of the government on this voting rights tended to be one more by people on the streets or people at the ballot box then by judges making rulings. But what you've seen. In recent years is a real concerted jurisprudential willingness to restrict the franchise or to come down over and over again to say. Hey you know what? Let's make it so that people can restrict the right to vote. You had a case in two thousand six that said well you know. The Right. To vote is important but You know states can do a lot of different things. They really just kind of technical matters and even if this was about voter ID in upholding a particular states voter. Id The really opened the door. You had the voting rights act case shelby. County that gutted. The most effective civil rights law in the country's history. You had a series of other cases where the Supreme Court would take a case where some state officials were usually on behalf of one political party of finding ways to restrict the right to vote and the Supreme Court over and over again has either stepped aside or ruled to let it happen and in most recently the whole issue of representation relating to Gerrymandering. Now the Gerrymandering you know the drawing of legislative district lines in a way to benefit incumbents or one party or maybe a racial majority gerrymandering has been around for a long time from the from the beginning of the country's history. But it's really gotten a lot worse With computers and very hard edged political tactics and the Supreme Court looked at the most extreme cases of partisan gerrymandering and this was after numerous federal courts had finally blocked these gerrymanders on the grounds. That you you just had people were able to vote. But their votes didn't count for very much because no matter how they voted one political party one and last year the Supreme Court said you know what this is so complicated so political. We're just going to step out of it and actually federal courts have no role are not allowed to take these cases on partisan gerrymandering. When you look at what John Roberts cares about where he has been willing to take the court in a more extreme direction than it might. Otherwise go when you look at Shelby County when you look at citizens united and the other campaign finance cases when you look at the Gerrymander in cases and their refusal to act over and over again. It's these democracy issues where the Roberts court has really set back the cause of democracy in this country I think so some of the laws that began to be passed after Shelby County and laws had been advocated for in many states for a long time ago to this question that you and I met over and that is accusations allegations of voter fraud which some people think can be alleviated by having a voter ID requirement went. Spent a couple of minutes on this whole myth about voter fraud and the need for ID before we get into voting by mail and the and the Cova crisis. Can you explain to people? And I've had a million conversations about this and we did a hearing work in the Senate on these issues with a lot of assistance from the Brennan Center. Folks and you. Why is it? The case that requiring a government issued. Id before you can go to a poll in vote. How is that not a good thing so I would answer it? Maybe a little differently than than you might expect First off election integrity is important and we all need to take it really seriously and we need to take seriously the things where there are real threats whether that's Russian interference or machinations nations by politicians and other things that really do pose threats to the integrity of elections so number one just worrying about that is not itself voter suppression but the second thing to understand. Is that the kind of voter fraud that really strict voter. Id laws would affect is vanishingly rare. The Brennan Center over the years has done studies showing that you are more likely to be struck by lightning than to commit in person. Voter fraud in the United States. Just is really rare. It's not a real problem. Why then does the notion of it persist I? I presume on the part of some people. It is just a political cudgel that they use to. In a very cynical way impose requirements that would suppress the vote. And I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that there is but in light of the of the lack of evidence of it. Why does it persist? If you know. It's it's a great question because it's really deeply and people's mindset Every poll every study shows that people believe it to be true even even though you know as a factual matter. It isn't and there is a deep suspicion of politics. It must all be kind of crooked. There are sort of baked in racial implicit bias. So that when when people think in terms of people who aren't like them voting they assume it must be more prone to misconduct and fraud and it's also really just used an effect as an excuse to come up with laws that make it harder for some people to vote to make it harder for people of color to vote that make it harder for Democrats to vote so that where I was going to say that I my own view and the Brennan Senators view on. This is not that voter. Id is per se improper. It's not crazy to require people to be who they say they are and to be able to prove it it's requiring certain types of ID that lots of people don't have is the problem so believe it or not about eleven percent of voters are eligible voters in the United States. Don't have a driver's license or another similar government. I d. that's hard to believe. It's hard for many of us who have driver's licenses. Or who have that kind of? Id TO IMAGINE. How do people get around without it? But it just is the case. But they're all many other kinds of ways of making sure that someone is who they say they are. That doesn't disenfranchise anybody. The federal law that has seven or eight different kinds of. Id in other words your veteran's Card your healthcare benefits. There's other things than a than a government driver's license that also work as ide- that don't disenfranchise people and to give you some examples of why so when Texas just a couple of hours after the Shelby County ruling came down Texas implemented. It's voter. Id La the strictest in the country and that was a law that notoriously said that you cannot use a university of Texas ID as a government. I D but You could use your concealed. Carry Gun permit and you know what a very clever yeah like. Gee I wonder how this. Oh Stephen Colbert at the time said if anything this will expand the voter rolls in Texas. It's way easier to get a gun then. A college degree still. That was the idea. And in that instance federal court ruled six hundred and eight thousand registered Texas voters. Not just maybe someday they would register existing registered. Voters lost their right to vote. Another court called these lot saying these laws targeted black voters with surgical precision. It's very cynical and it's a slicing and dicing the electorate and again you can come up with voter. Id Rules or other rules. That are not disenfranchising. Unfortunately that's not what people have done. The notion of avast voter fraud that requires voter. Id or government. Id persist so much that the president we should recall established commission and election integrity. That was run by CRISCO back. Who was the secretary of State of Kansas and remind folks what happened with respect to that undertaking that was that was designed to find all these instances of voter fraud so donald trump when he was a candidate began? Claiming voter fraud. Well before any votes had been cast saying the election was going to be stolen from him and then then of course improbably became president and he said well. I really won the popular vote when you quote subtract the millions of illegal voters. These are not just illegal voters. I would imagine they were special invisible illegal voters right because nobody saw them. Not Fox. News didn't see them. You Know No. Nobody could identify where these illegal voters were. But he said that they were the reason he didn't win the popular vote and when people reacted to that and realized this was not just a charge or a claim but a lie. You know akin to Sean. Spicer claiming how many people around the mall trump reacted by saying well? I'm going to create a commission to prove that it's true and Mike Pence the vice president was the notional chair of it and it was the leader of it. Was this Guy Chris. Kovach who wrote allow these disenfranchising laws. All over the country and was the secretary of State of Kansas and the commission could not find any evidence of this fraud they will the members of it wound up suing each other and it imploded without finding any evidence of Fryer. You go you know. And it's not that they weren't looking and You know but but we hear these charges that over and over again and and even now during this crisis this pandemic you're hearing the same claims about voter fraud. As an excuse to try to restrict the vote is not really about stopping fraud. It's not really about election. Integrity is really about trying to shrink the electorate with home security. There are two ways you can go about protecting your home. There's the more traditional way. Wait weeks for a technician to do a complicated installation that can cost a small fortune. Or there's the other way simply safe two time winner of the scene editor's choice award for its protection simply safe. Blanket your whole home in safety and you barely notice it's there what's truly remarkable as you can set up the system all by yourself. It TAKES THIRTY MINUTES. An hour tops. 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Twenty four seven with emergency dispatch for break INS fire and more all for just fifty cents a day just order online and set it up yourself in under an hour. Your home is protected. Twenty four seven with emergency dispatch for break INS fire and more all for just fifty cents a day and we're not the only fans of simplisafe. Us News and World Report named Simplisafe Best Overall Home Security of twenty twenty head to simplisafe dot com slash pre get free shipping and a sixty day money back guarantee that's simplisafe dot com slash pre to make sure that they know our show sent you from simply safe and all of us here wishing you safety and good health. Let's just fast forward to twenty twenty and you've given us a lot of background and history of the the fight to vote as you called in your book from Twenty Sixteen and it seems that there's so much concern about in person voting we don't know what the Ark of the pandemic will be over. The coming months primaries have been cancelled and moved. Is it the case that the savior for all of this that the the trend must necessarily be? Let's all just vote by mail as I pointed had on this program before Oregon was a pioneer in that regard and has had precious few problems and everyone vote by mail is that the is that the solution to all our ills. Well this election. This election was extraordinarily. It is an extraordinarily important election anyway and it was already clear that there were it was expected. There was going to be record turnout. And the system was really not particularly well equipped to handle that we saw with the Iowa caucus and long lines and Texas and California all before the pandemic now along comes this crisis. And it's pretty clear that you know it's obviously a terrible health crisis and it is an economic crisis but that it's GONNA become a democracy crisis that it's going to really make it a challenge to run an election. That is fully participatory that most Americans can really take pardon. We saw that in Wisconsin where people literally had to stand on line and choose to put their health at risk or have their right to vote in a way. This is kind of a clarifying moment. Because they're just some basic previously noncontroversial steps. That can make a difference. The Brennan Center has put out a plan of all the things that we think are critical to make it so that people can actually vote in November. And you're right first of all the needs to be universal access to vote by mail and that's not a new idea. It's actually the case that already about a third of the country votes other than on election day the vote by mail or they vote early. But there's something like that in the number of states that's basically how they do it. Oregon California Washington State Colorado Utah which is a very red republican state. This is how it's done with precious few problems but it would be impossible to shift the whole election to vote by mail in November even if it was a good idea. Seventeen states basically. Don't have it and you need to make changes in their rules. Changes in how they treat the ballots and a lot of that stuff is going to have to happen. So in addition of vote by mail or no excuse absentee balloting as it would be seen in some states you also have to have in person voting opportunities that are safe and accessible and what that really means is a lot of early voting so that you don't have everybody showing up on election day and you know it's an interesting thing. There are a lot of voters who want to vote in person who need to vote in person and they've been reasons why they've been reluctant to vote by mail. We don't know what it's going to be like in November but we need to have the vote by mail option for everybody and also do our very best to have adequate in person voting. So what about the issue with respect to fraud now again on a surface level when you talk about building by mail it seems to suggest well? Nobody's looking nobody's monitoring. You don't have a poll worker to make sure that everything is on the up and up. Isn't that susceptible to fraud to a greater degree than in person voting fair or not the instances of fraud with absentee balloting or by mail are still really minimal. There are a little higher than an in person voting but there are steps that are have been taken in that can be taken to guarantee the security of a vote by mail to and as you say the key thing is is now like an imaginary idea. This is how it's done and a lot of the country now without a problem. Everything from Barcodes on the envelopes signature requirements on the envelope. So that you know you. Match the signature against the signature on file. Drop off places. A lot of people are kind of worried about putting their ballot in a mailbox. 'cause they don't know if it'll get there and we don't know if we're going to have a post office. We have a post office and actually the case that most people as I understand it in states where they do vote by mail they get sent the ballot in the mail but most people want to kind of drop it off at a secure box and a government building. There aren't just put it in the mail so there are a lot of different ways to make it so that it's secure. There's no reason to think that it's not secure. It's GONNA require us to change our understanding of things. For example they take longer to count So you know it's always the case that it takes longer to get the results out of California for example because they're still counting after the election and we may not know the results on election night in two thousand twenty and that's not a sign of fraud. That's just a sign that people are carefully counting the ballots. But even there you need to change the accounting rules and deadlines and a bunch of states. Is there an argument? Voting by mail renders an election less susceptible to intervention by say Russians. It's got its own challenges because while you're not seeing the voting machines at risk then you have to worry about. How ballots are counted and the counting centres. The counting systems are also vulnerable to interference potentially so at the same time as we are making it so that voters can can actually vote. We have to continue to harden harden the systems against hacking and interference by Russia or Iran or China or North Korea or whoever might be looking to target the election one example that shows the risks. And why it's so important to take election security seriously. Few years ago in Ukraine there was an election and the day before the election. They discovered malware on the system for the software for counting the votes and they discovered it and they fixed it and The malware was going to have the far right party win fifty four percent of the vote so they had the election and the far right party one really small share of the vote and someone else won but the TV stations in Moscow didn't get the news and announced that the far right party had won with fifty four percent of the vote so that was a bit of a clue as to who might have been behind it. So yeah no you still have to be really careful and you know the one thing I want to say is. There's a lot of issues on voting that have been really intensely partisan and that's unfortunate but it is the case in voter. Id has proven to be one of them. A lot of these issues around election security have not been partisan there was a real Democrat Republican coalition that got Congress to pass hundreds of millions of dollars to go to states to strengthen their systems to protect against hacking by by Russia. Whoever vote by mail so you know Donald Trump. He kind of gave the game away on this one. He said the things they had in their work crazy. They had things Levels of voting that if he ever agree to it you'd never have a republican elected in this country again. They had things in there about you. Know election days and what you do and All sorts of clawbacks and they had things that were just totally crazy. He totally like went off script and what was funny of course because he's got all these acolytes is all of a sudden. Within a couple of days you saw like the Speaker of the assembly in Georgia and the speaker of the Assembly in Wisconsin saying the same thing and then they remembered. Oh no wait. That's not. That's not the script. And they suddenly started highest lea- worrying about voter fraud. They remembered they that they were supposed to pretend those as bad fraud as opposed to restricting the electric and so now you hear trump saying oh vote by meals terrible. There's so much fraud but again vote by. Mail is one of those things that up until now has not been seen as benefiting either party and if you think about it so. I'm confused by that. So why why does it president? And why some of his supporters think the vote by mail is necessarily bad for them. I because it has the word vote in the Canton. Voting public in Florida. For example were a lot of folks as an older demographic which I think historically as voted more republican than democratic is just a political era by the president. I think that it's a political era by the present but if you look at election officials from both parties and governors from both parties including Republican governors. They've said pretty emphatically look if we want to have an election. We have to make it so people can vote this time and that means expanded vote by mail. Vote by mail was not the dream of left-wing advocates. Just we don't really have a choice. The goal is to make it so that everybody really gets to do it so that you WanNa make sure that for example you have to pay postage and one of the real questions so some states you know as you described out in the West ballots are sent to people but a lot of other states. You have to request about it and there are states where you can only request about if you are sick or out of the state and of course with this pandemic everybody should be able to request ballot because of the health risk just in the last few days as we have this conversation in Texas. The governor said Oh no no no. You have to really be sick. You can't request a ballot just because the government and the doctors have told you to stay at home raising the question of if somebody's as symptomatic that mean they have to go vote in person. This is going to be a battle in the courts and it's just a look I think that trump is making a political error here of potentially significant proportions. People support making it possible for them to vote. People support by very high margins both Democrats and Republicans and independents early voting and opportunity. Vote by mail seventy eighty percent and all the polls. The Brennan Center did a poll the been several by news organizations in the last few weeks and I think that anger over the idea that in Wisconsin the Republicans were trying to make it hard for people to vote is part of what drove the turnout in that state to be as high as it was. People want to vote and they get mad when you try to take that right away and I think that sooner or later I'm hoping anyway that some of the politicians on the right we'll see that but that is the dynamic it's not even concerned about contracting virus. You see what the long lines are like if people have jobs where their employers don't give them the day off or you can't get childcare. Whatever other problems you have. It's an option that doesn't seem to be better or worse whether you're Democrat or republican system matter of convenience and now this year for the first time in a very serious way the matter of personal safety and health to for me one of one of the defining images of this whole fight right now is on election day. Primary Day in Wisconsin. The speaker of the Wisconsin House and remember the Republicans control the legislature in Wisconsin because of ruthless gerrymandering. Not Because of the way people are actually voting sort of a perpetual motion. Machine here But the speaker who had blocked the effort to postpone the election So that people would be able to cast their ballots more safely on primary day. He was being interviewed by reporters saying. Oh no no no no. This is so safe for people to vote. People's had have no worries about going to vote and he was wearing a has met suit while insane. And you know that's that's kind of the the veep level reality of some of this a lot of stuff going on. What do you expect in terms of legal battles going forward? What are people going to be reading the newspapers case? After case after case state by state as rules altered or as people try to request vote by mail with the Supreme Court getting involved. The last minute. Are we going to see a million of these? You know I. I hope not but I think there's certainly can be a lot of hand to hand legal combat between now and November. I mean things have to really happen in almost three steps first. Congress needs to step up and fund. This only the federal government has the capacity right now to provide the resources that it'll take for states to make it so that their citizens can vote. The Brennan Center did a cost analysis. We found that it would cost at least two billion dollars and actually we've looked at it some more. The numbers actually higher now Congress to its credit with the leadership of Speaker Pelosi and Senator. Schumer did get four hundred million dollars in the most recent big a stimulus bill to give to states so that they could take the steps that they wanted to take it was not a federal mandate. It was really money because you know right now. Only the federal government can print money states have these balanced budget rules and they're strapped and they're facing crises and running around the country trying to buy ventilators and only the federal government can provide these resources. But they have to do more. There needs to be a few billion dollars in these trillion dollars. Stimulus bills to help states and this is something that again. Republican as well as democratic state officials have been really urgently asking for you know the further away you get from Washington the further away you get from the Fox News. Green Room the less. Partisan this is this is something where a state election officials from what we can see have really been trying to do the right thing. They're just kind of overwhelmed. I mean y Wisconsin. Don't forget had vote by mail. They need to change. The rule is just that the system buckled under the weight of the number of people who now wanted to use it it went from something like two hundred fifty thousand people and a typical primary up to like a million and a half in one week so the next step after Congress provides the money is the states. Need to do what they need to do. And some of them need to change their rules here in New York State. There's a state constitutional provisions that made it basically impossible to vote by mail but the governor has done an executive order reinterpreting their constitutional provision so that people can but states just need to print it. They need to print up the ballots. They need to get the polling places. Set up so that people can actually use them safely and in a in a sanitary way and things like that. I guess you weren't weren't o'clock now to the the clock is ticking right. Yes absolutely this is not something that can be done overnight. And we've got basically if a few weeks to go to get the funding to the states states needs to take these steps. People need to pressure states to make sure they do it. And unfortunately it's become clear as part of this. What seems to be a kind of concerted strategy to make it harder for people to vote. The Republican Party has now thrown. It's legal weight behind efforts to block states from taking these steps so when states try to say well. We can count the absentee ballots. Even if they come in after election day if it's not the voters fault because they requested it on time but they didn't get the ballot in time to have it arrived on election day. The Republican Party has stepped in to try to block that in court as what happened in Wisconsin. Supreme Court made a ruling so in Wisconsin. You had the state Supreme Court which is very politicized and they're running for office and in fact one of the justices was up for reelection. The State Supreme Court had blocked the governor from postponing the election and the US Supreme Court. It was a more technical question of whether the ballots will be counted after election day and the majority five to four said. Oh you know. This is just a technical matter in this election. Day isn't really any different from any other election day and Nothing nothing to see here folks and again the descent on this was basically. You've gotta be kidding if you to sum up The descent it was. This is not like this is just like any other election and one hint that this was not the court's finest moment is The majority ruling here was per curium. Which is you know. Means nobody would sign their name inside writing and I think they were hiding under the under their desks to using their robes says masks. Can I ask you a sort of a broad question about where we are in voting in this country because a surprisingly small number of people vote I think in presidential election years it hovers between fifty five sixty percent which is not what you would want in no the oldest democracy in the world and so my question is are all these restrictions and and difficulties and technical rules with respect to voting? There were trying to undo that responsible for the low voting rate or is a bigger problem. Generalized Apathy on the part of the electorate I think that voter suppression has had something to do with it. But I think there are bigger deeper. Challenges it all works together. Things like gerrymandering where people don't really feel. They have a reason to vote because most districts most elections. They pretty much know the outcome before. The ballots are cast. That's a reason people don't vote. I think the general demobilization of political parties in the United States over many years is another reason Allow the baked inequality people just don't like their voice counts even people's sense that big money is so dominant this goes pretty deep in the American psyche. But there's an interesting trend here which is first of all these core democracy issues. The issues of how our democracy works which are becoming more front and center and I really think have to be at the heart of American politics throughout most of the country's history whether it was the John Adams days or Lincoln or the suffrage era or civil rights. Those questions have been really central to American politics. And it's at those times that people have been really engaged and I think that the recognition that some people are trying to curb democracy is actually spurring people to get more involved in twenty fourteen. Voter turnout was the lowest level. In seventy two years and that is really a sign of people being turned off in disengaged from the system but then trump gets elected twenty. Eighteen was a different story. It was the highest turnout in over a century and there was every reason to believe that this election would have record turnout now again. It's still lower than a lot of other countries but for the American context people are surging back to the polls and for some people. That's a scary prospect. You know the country's changing as we all know it's becoming less white. The rising share of the electorate from a Latino voters from Asian voters and photos of color and African Americans. That is a very scary prospect to some people and just as whenever there's big change throughout the country's history part of the way people are responding to that is by trying to change the rules of democracy so it's no longer representative so that the new voices can't be heard that's really what the fight is about. The real question here is if we're going to have an election in two thousand twenty. That people can really participate in. That is free and fair and secure and safe. Then we're going to have to really pressure Congress and pressure the states to do it. It turns out that getting Congress to pass money getting the states to make it. So people can vote by mail or have adequate early voting. All of that is going to require a very loud voice from the public in the middle of this craziness. But if we don't do it we're going to have a lot of Wisconsin in November Michael Waldman. You've given a lot of your time. Thank you again for speaking with us. Educating US and all the work you do it the Brennan Center. Thanks again thank you. The conversation continues for members of the cafe inside community to hear the stay tuned bonus material with Michael Waldman and get the exclusive weekly cafe inside or podcast and other content head to cafe dot com slash insider. Right now you can try a cafe inside our membership free for two weeks cafe dot com slash insider. Well that's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guest Michael Waldman if you like what we do rate and review the show on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners. Find the show. Send me your questions about news. Politics Injustice tweet them to me at preet. Berar with the Hashtag ask pre or you can call and leave me a message at six nine. Two four seven seven three eight six six nine two four prete or you can send an email to stay tuned at cafe. Dot Com stay. Tuned is presented by cafe. The executive producer is tomorrow supper. The senior audio producer David Tattoo shore and the cafe team. Is Julia. Doyle Matthew Billy David Kerr Lander Calvin Lord Sam Oser Stayton and Jeff Eisenman. Our Music is by Andrew. Dost I'm pre- Berrara stay tuned

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Introducing Storybound

Storybound

01:32 min | 1 year ago

Introducing Storybound

"Introducing a new audio theater. Experience presented by lit- Hub Radio and the conglomerate to imagine that at one point. This place was all packed music light and hope these are stories. Like you've never heard before for accompanied by original scoring and one of a kind studio performances. That will sweep you away. You begin to wonder whether this was a good idea. Once Junkie always a junkie each episode featuring a musician alongside critically acclaimed and bestselling authors. Like Mitch. albom diction Basu. Lydia you you can bitch Adelle Waldman and war. We were at war because we always had nothing was on TV. We're at war because we would be nothing in his online movie Q.. Seemed interesting. It's possible possible you're watching. TV and eating popcorn or someone grieved to their last breath. I did not doubt that he would find me. I'm judy brewer. Andy You are listening to story bound. where the page vanishes and the words come alive? New episodes air every Tuesday beginning December number. Thirty to subscribe on Apple podcasts. spotify stitcher Google podcasts tune in or sign for the email newsletter. Atlit hub DOT COM.

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Matt Waldman - Rookie Scouting Portfolio

The College Draft with Ross Tucker

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Matt Waldman - Rookie Scouting Portfolio

"It's the Memorial Day sale at mattress firm. Enjoy one of the best mattress holidays of the year with one of the best deals around. Get a king mattress for the price of a Queen. And Queen for the price of a twin that storewide savings of up to seven hundred dollars on the best brands like a new Certa memory foam Queen mattress for the price of a twin for only three hundred ninety seven dollars. Hurry in your budget stretches further at mattress firm, restrictions apply to participate in kitchens only for over details. Visit match dot com slash sale. Cold one, they strike and listen to Russ Ducker and Philadelphia goes film junkie. Fran. Duffy breakdown the top college prospects on another tasty edition of the college draft. Yes, it is daddy soda time here on the cows draft podcast, which has always presented by bed. Online dot AG. You guys all ready know, the promo code podcast one. Hope everybody had a terrific mother's day weekend. I know a lot of you went to my front page story dot com and took advantage of that deal. That is awesome, Adam Schefter among you, which is very cool. I am still very much into this past year's draft and breaking it down with different analysts, whom I really respect. And I didn't even realize how long it had been since. I had my guy. Matt Waldman on the show. Absolutely love. Matt you should follow him on Twitter at Matt Waldman. He got a budget for things going on people know about the rookie scouting portfolio. He's writing for football guys as well. Madda? Feels like it's been too long men. How are you? I'm doing great. You know, I've got a daughter who's about three weeks away from graduating marine boot camp. So it's been a while. Holy crap. Man. How old is she? She's twenty six so marine. Well, he loves it. So it's awesome. That is amazing. That's awesome. All right. So Matt I remember your background. But because I think it's been over a year. And I know we have new listeners can you fill in the listeners kind of on your background and how he got to the point where you are as respected of a draft analyst as you are now as certainly an odd one because I didn't play the game at a high level at all. But I came from an operations background really working on getting certified on different types of processes, you use to evaluate performance, and I decided to apply that football. So I'll always had a love for the game. And I had been a fantasy writer back in the early two thousands and thought this might be a good way to really develop my chops for studying the game citing film, and I wanted to just focus on the skill positions quarterback running back wide receiver and tight end. So I started the rookie scouting portfolio in two thousand six and made this made the. The publication of really transparent process for how I define everything that I look at. So that when you look at my rankings, you also see the process behind that. And so I study, you know, every year at least one hundred fifty of those prospects, I give you a process that's different than what you'd see with the NFL. But what I would argue, and what people who buy my publication who include personnel people on scouts media. And of course, lots of fancy players mentioned is that it's a process that is a little bit more transparent and easier to define so it helps you kind of build on it and learn from different things and also be able to make it a better process every year. So this this is fourteen years in the making, and it's a it's a publication that you know, has allowed me to to really not only learn the game, but help my readers. Learn more about different. Techniques than ideas, and that go into evaluate in the these positions that I study. So Matt when when does it come out, and how much is it? Sure. It's for twenty one ninety five you get the RSP pre-draft every April first that's downloadable PDF. That's you know this year. It was about eleven hundred pages. That's actually smaller than what I usually do because I've taken out some sections that people don't really need to see on that level. And then you get a post draft that comes out a week after the draft that includes a cheat sheet where I marry my ranking after the draft with average draft position that I studied for about fifteen sixteen leagues. So that you can find the sweet spot between safe. I think Nick Chubb was the best back in the draft last year, and where you should actually be able to get him. I give you that spot where you're not gonna wait too long. But you're not gonna get them. You're not gonna go to early to get them. And. Then after that, you also get access to my monthly newsletter, which is available from June through December that re- ranks three years of classes for you to take a look at as well, as you know, previews of the twenty twenty class and what's going on in camp and in preseason as well as the regular season different analysis on the twenty nineteen prospects. Wow. That's awesome. And who are some of the like, I know, you know, some of them, maybe you don't know all of them. But who are some of the people that subscribe, you know, I mean, you get various people who subscribe. I mean, I know, you know, for sure that I one of the guys that I can tell you about now who's actually kinda makings way out of the league is someone who's been subscribing since two thousand seven really complicated. The process is just I will give a name, but I'll say gentleman who has worked for well. Over a dozen teams has been a scout for a, you know, a handful of teams fulltime, and then also did a lot of analytical work full-time for a number of teams where he worked directly with general managers and was very complimentary of the process that you know, and just said that in terms of the pro, you know, obviously, when we first started doing he mentioned, hey, listen, you know, you know, you're scouting when I started, you know, obviously, you're not going to beat a twenty year veteran in terms of what he's doing. But. Terms of process. It was very far. He he mentioned it was very far ahead of what the NFL is doing. We could talk about that one day in terms of you know, why my process is different in probably a little bit better. But you know, there's a lot of talented guys in the NFL in terms of their I and what Dave accumulated is individuals who who do great great work, can you and we can talk about that in depth a different time. But can you give the listeners the cliffnote version of your process before we dive into some specific guys? Sure, you know, basically think about it this way if you if you're in an office, I'm gonna make it a really simple idea. But think about you're just trying to answer have someone that you've hired as a phone a certain way, if you take twenty you know, like five guys Varian experienced twenty thirty years experience in an in an operation sector in you, ask them. How would you like this person to answer the phone for your business? You're probably going to get five different answers. Because the way it's defined in absorbed in your different experience. Are going to give you a different result. And if it's not talked about and the way you wanted to find key processes aren't in aren't defined clearly and in writing somewhere that people can really see it and act on end. How you want value in score it, then you create a lot of variation. And that can often mean that your your own team was looking at different things in value in different things in an unhealthy way. It's nice to bring different perspectives to the table. But when are key processes that you want everyone to be on the same page with if it's not clearly defined than you don't know how to really build on it and make it better as you continue to learn as a team and also it can create situations where people have misunderstands of what you want even be looking for. And so my publication is really good at being able to be flexible in grow. But at the same time make it very clear what it is that I'm looking for and that that makes a lot lifelock. Easier than say the zero through nine grading scale that looks like an employee evaluation where you, you know, no one really ever gets a nine. No one ever gets, you know in the lower ranges, and is always kind of it. You know, it creates a situation where some people want it to be safe and say, well, I really like him, but I'm gonna give him a fourth round gray. Because I know that that that's you know, that's not much of a risk or I really don't like him. But I don't wanna pan them. Because he's you know, he's got a high draft profiler stock in our community. So I'm going to give him a fourth round trade. So you get these situations where even the little bit of the politics that goes into it can create some issues as well. Yeah. That makes sense. How do you end up grading them? Matt I ended up grading them on one hundred point scale, which I define and everything that I grade is kind of a yes, no fashion in terms of did they prove that they could do something consistently enough. Or did they not fruit that they could do it? And then I also use a grading tier system. I used to different grades lung by breadth of talent eats terms of. Here's the basic things at NFL player could do in a broad sense that their position that you would like to see them do and how many of those skills do they have an that's on one hundred point scale and then on different hundred point scale. I do depth of talent where they may not always have the highest grade. But if they do certain things extremely well. That can actually elevate how well they play. And so you get a chance to see both in checklist format and then in a tiered format across each of the different positions. So say with running back, I'll look at different aspects of decision making an Jila. And pass catching and blocking and power and balance, and you get to see all the running backs how they're tiered against each other. But it's not really so much against each other. But within tiers of performance, whether they have how I define for instance, star caliber performance versus starter caliber performance to, you know, committee caliber on down, and they each get placed in those areas, and if they qualify for certain levels of that. But maybe not everything they kind of fall in between, and they get certain levels of bonuses that are projectable to you know, that I've deemed that they're projectable things that they can get better at. I love it. I'm now eleven hundred pages. That's just insane. Matt, but I love it. And I love talking with you about these guys. So let's dive into it since you have it graded the way you did. And since you've already looked at it post draft. I guess what I'm most interested in Matt would be either the guys that you really liked that maybe other people weren't as high on. And you think they were great picks for certain teams, and guys that you really had some questions about and you're not so sure about their selection by those teams, and you know, the process will play out, and we'll see what ends up happening. So why don't we start with the positive? You know, some guys that you really liked maybe more than the quote unquote community did and you felt like the teams that took them got trauma. Lendus value and made excellent picks. Sure. I mean, I think we'll start off even just with the quarterback position class at a lot of people don't feel like is as good as what we saw in the past few classes, and what made to come. But I like will Greer better than most people? I'm I think he integrates his skills. Extremely well. The quarterback position is a as a performance oriented position. So when you only study at based on physicality, you know, or technical skills, or or or even just whiteboard intelligence memorization type of intelligence that made the maybe the wonder look lick is the only thing that that's the only thing that the Wunderlich may actually capture in a way that's great in terms of project into the field. There's a lot more to the quarterback position in terms of high you integrate in process that game, and that takes emotional intelligence confidence on skill to be able to improvise and to be able to take despair it skills and put them all together, physically mentally, emotionally, intuitively and. Make good quarterback. Patrick, Mahomes was the guy really loved because of that will Greer. I think is the best in this class at integrating the game. Even if he doesn't have that monster arm. He has great anticipation, and when you see him in Carolina Cam Newton has two years left on his deal. Second shoulder surgery in consecutive years. As been a terrific player, but also has taken a lot of punishment to his body in terms of his playing style. He likes to hang in there in the pocket like an anchor and waiting for the play to come open or the receiver to come wide open. And then throw the ball grooves better anticipatory thrower. Even now than Newton is he's not, you know, at Newton's level in terms of advancement of the game yet. But he's a guy that his receivers met shop well with him because those guys are fifty fifty tight coverage types of catchers, they're more guys he to throw in stride and let them run. So I think Greer's terrific fit for a couple years, and he gets a couple of years to. Hopefully on at least maybe intermittently if Cam Newton doesn't stay healthy at least get some time on the field. And if he does he'll at least have he'll have some time to really prepare. I also like Darwin Thompson, the running back out of Utah state affair bid within his fit with Kansas City's nice because when you look at Thompson, he's a he's a short guy with good quickness and decent speed who can catch the ball. But he's also a fairly strong player who's been fairly would be an understatement. The guys kind of a physical freak in terms of his strength. I talked to his high school coach dub Matic's who's a terrific coach in terms of work that I would recommend our four system is something that has him on the national coaching circuit all the time. And he talked about, you know, his days with Thomson and said this guy could have been Olympic powerlifter. And when you watch him play you can see him run through the law. Lots of tackles wraps hits. You know, even knows not just someone reaching in slice Wotton on the leg. I mean, this is a guy that runs through all three levels of the defense and consistently breaks tackles when he gets the ball. And when you combine that with his ability to make people miss in catch the bond space. He reminds me a lot of a Dion Lewis with a little more thump or Brian Westbrook with a little bit more thump, which are pretty heady comparisons. I don't think he has Westbrook speed. But I think he or the top vision that Westbrook had but his decision making good enough that I think it's going to be something to build on. It will be a good fit and Kansas City. I like miles boykin in Baltimore. Both those receivers and Rossi nominee allowed people are worried about Lamar Jackson. But I think about the fact that even though the ravens were you know, they're run game on offense of line. Ran the same place with flacco as did with Jackson, and they kind of prepare. Ahead of time to to us what they did with Jackson once they put him on the field. They were prepared for that. In the summer the way flacco executed that in the passing game in terms of executed the plays. There wasn't a lot of the zone. Read in the different option title looks which changes the timing between the receivers and the quarterback and Jackson had to deal with that. So that's part of the reason why the percentage the percentage was low in terms of completions. And it was half it happened mid year on so it was the first part mid year where he was really getting at regular reps with his receivers to really build that report. So when you look at the receivers bringing with Brown boykin, both guys can run decent routes. I think boy the better route runner, even though people talk about him as if he's more developmental Brown's a guy who can improvise a little bit better in win with his speed and find the open zone holes. Whereas I think boykin one on one on the outside is very strong very skilled at being able to, you know, get that Dr step and drop his way. And come back to the ball. And he's a guy that you know, I think if he has superior quarterbacking at Notre Dame we would have heard a lot more about him in a positive way than what we did. And when you take you know, boykin and Brown together, they're gonna find open creases. They're going to get quick hitting plays and the defense is still has to account for in Jackson in the run game. And that means they're gonna find those little creases in. They're going to be able to get yards after that. In addition to some you know, the deep game Jackson continues to build. So I think it was great what the ravens did there. And of course, decay medcalf. I mean, you look at Metcalf in Seattle, and it's kind of like people worried about the route running. But there were I think, you know, his ability to bend in Dr may hurt him on curls in comebacks, but any type of route that breaks ninety degrees or less. He's going to be fine on in terms of his speed and quickness to do that. And he's has such a quick upper body. A violent upper body. He someone that can can knock people off balance who try to jam him or avoid that that jam and be able to then, you know, work downfield on some of these vertical routes and even just intermediate rows. So that you have a decent, you know, runway for takeoff. And he's a guy that that, you know, my biggest concern is is his build really fitting fitting for a wide receiver, and that would be about it. I mean as long as he doesn't have. He's a guy that doesn't have injuries left, and right that are you know, tissue type injuries than he should be a huge big play threat for them. So those are some of the guys that are really love. So I gotta ask you just because it's been so criticized, and I actually wrote about it in my column for the athletic this week just the overwhelming criticism of the pick and the player. I gotta no matter what you thought of Daniel Jones breaking him down the quarterback. From Duke that was the sixth overall pick for the giants. Yeah. I didn't love him. And I I've been on a number of giant shows talking about him pre draft. And the thing is is that I think that the, you know, from what I heard the scouting community or maybe not even sky in the community. NFL teams have bought into the idea that he's a finished product from the David cut cliff tutelage the quarterback coach, you know, for the Manning's. And so that you have the relationship with the Manning's and cut cliff as being in common there. But from what I heard that's been played up a little more than maybe it should be. And that, you know, obviously, the pupil has to be as good as the as the teacher, and whether or not he was even really given that quality of teaching or that amount of teaching is still kind of up for debate from what I'm hearing. But when you look at his game one I see is a guy who seems to be a half step behind in terms of getting rid of the. Ball identifying the coverage being able to be on the same page where when you see that leverage of the safety or corner or linebacker e need to let that ball go. And he's a guy where his footwork and his and his timing and tempo seemed to be off from being able to make those decisions consistently where he's either hitting the really should staying with the re long enough or moving onto fat asked from the I read the next raid. I see him I see instances where the communication with his receivers was consistently off that may have been some of the fault of the receivers. But as a quarterback, if you're consistently having that issue than it's your responsibility. And so, you know, it's a small thing. But when you add it to the other layers things I mentioned in addition to the fact that as tough as he is in the pocket. I really admires pockets off needs to stand in there and take punishment and just keep firing and being aggressive. I also just a not a big fan of how he diagnosis information. Pre post snap. Really how his foot work in terms of being able to be crisp enough in fast enough in live fire, and the balls just a bit off, you know, charged probably ten games for every quarterback. And I charged a variety of different information on you know, by zone of field. And I look at things both in terms of catchable accuracy, whether the receiver had had a reasonable chance to catch the ball. Even if he had to make an adjustment outside his range of of stride. Or what Bill Walsh would say is you know, pinpoint accuracy. And I and I grade both and Daniel Jones, even his is what I would call general. Accuracy isn't great for each zone of the field. When you look at say next gen stats where they studied, you know, tens of thousands of throws more in and showed where the percentile thresholds. He's just below a lot of them. In the intermediate end, you know, vertical Dc games because I. Vied the field into deep vertical intermediate in short, and he just wasn't there. So when I see him I see the talent that people are looking at. But I think it's kind of an old school look in terms of he's big he's big armed. He's book. Smart. You know, he has some technical facility in terms of baseline in terms of how you know, the the form that he uses to make these things, but they think well if we can throw him in and give him some extra tutelage hill develop. But I think that the way he processes the game is really a lot slower than it should be and even even down to just getting passes batted down that he could have been responsible for being a little quicker at you think, you know, people think column Arabia guy who have too many passes about down. But in the ten games. I studied of each of those guys Murray only had one pass deflections Jones had I think thirteen or fifty I know that was in the teens over that same ten game span Jones. Has that nice item? But it's about the tempo. And ultimately, that's what's Pertz him. Just out of curiosity. What did you think of Haskins? I thought Haskins was pretty good. I think he's I had him third on my on my pre draft board. And I think that in theory his fit in Washington is nice because they have a good offensive line. When that line is healthy. And they have some decent veteran skill talent around him that if he needs to play earlier than later, he if this team can stay healthy, he can do some decent work from the pocket. But kind of like, you know, a lesser version of Philip rivers in terms of ability to hang in the pocket because rivers is so strong that even though he's not unbelievably mobile, he he's able to get through wraps and contact and shake people off and find just an nifty little move, you know, to the left or the right or forward to to find that open a man in his anticipations fantastic with Haskins. I see a guy who's who got better and better in his first season. And you could see him get more confident than pre snap breeds his confidence in being able to move the pocket and make some off, you know, off balance throws off platform types of throws. But he's a guy that needs to stay on his spot and be able to throw with great timing and rhythm, and he can do that. But he needs a healthy pocket to be able to do that on a consistent basis and not be leaned on do, you know, Russell Wilson like things or Aaron Rodgers type things where even Matthew Stafford types of work. So he's it's good. But Washington hasn't been able to keep its line healthy or a lot of its players healthy. And you know, that's that may be more coincidence than anything or it could be a product of of you know, of things that are deeper that would require more study. But you, but regardless as if they can stay healthy Haskins has a tough has a tougher time than it looks on paper. But I think in theory. I like the fit. I'm just waiting to see if that line, can, you know can continue to be healthy in gel. And if it does than his development path could be smoother. So you mentioned Daniel Jones, you weren't a huge fan who are some the other guys that. You know, went higher than than you would have taken. Let's say, yeah. I mean, I think that guys that I think went a little higher than I than I would have preferred I think Andy Isabella on on papers. Nice fit out of UMass certainly love his speed. He can catch the ball. And you love in in terms of just rob -bility to to make people take false steps and to make people miss or trick them with his movement that just kind of like Braxton Miller even watching him at the senior bowl practices. People. Get impressed with kind of that playground movement where you're trying to get a defender to move with a lot of lateral side to side movement. That's a waste of movement. You know, you want us you want to always be attacking downhill and even with your movement at sets up you're moving downhill while you're doing it. And I thought that any Isabella got little overrated due to do on data production as opposed to. How he got that production in big games? And so when I see I see that he could be fit in cliff Kingsbury offense as a slot player. But it's one of those deals where there's four different. There's four guys who can play the slot that they pretty much have on that team. Now FitzGerald is a guy who's evolved into more of a slot option as as he's aged on curious to see they're gonna stick him back out as a flanker split in the Kim Butler can act who I really loved could be could actually play in the slot as a big slot role. Christian Kirk was drafted last year who's ideally more of a slot player. So, you know, the the fact that they they've got maybe one guy who can who can obviously very good at multiple positions in FitzGerald and with Butler as Butler grows. You still have a situation where I don't see a guy like Isabela being used outside a ton unless it's just specific plays where they motioned him pre snap. And they know he's not gonna. Get pressed 'cause he struggled in my opinion against press coverage in on tape and the injuries where it was it was a lot of wasted movement. And when he got you know, rerouted or played physically he got distracted, and you could see him get distracted with the ball arriving on time and him not being able to make the play. Jalen Hurd is a guy who I really find intriguing the former five star running back at Tennessee. But he, you know, I thought he really turned himself into a fine receiver prospect in terms of his footwork quickness billeted drop and drive and he catches the ball pretty well. And he's he starts off. Moore's a big slot at Baylor. But you can see that potential for him to be split end or even a flanker. And they use them as a running back still on. I think whole that work is a receiver actually made his footwork better as a runner, and he was a lot cleaner and quicker and more precise with his footwork from being able to. To pick in slide to open creases in be patient. But they kind of say while he's kind of a receiver, and that we're talking is he gonna play more running back is gonna be a wing an H back type of player in line tight end possibly and the the way they define that could be a good thing in terms of the use it well enough. But if he just turns into a pure gadget, I we joked the gadgets get lost in the inbetween couch cushions in the NFL. And and to me very few teams. Do a great job of making the best use of players don't have a position. And I'm a little worried that you know, in San Francisco, if they've already have some of their receiving receiver d'etre pretty well defined that I fear that a guy like heard who could be very good as a wide receiver might get lost as a as a gadget in that mix. That's interesting and anybody else that jumps out to you on the negative part. Yeah. I mean, I think that they're more later guys. You know, this is a class where it's interesting because some of the talents who are who are most fascinating might be some of the running backs who are later on dick later on in this track. I think Trayvon Williams endeavoured single territory guys. But I thought were difficult evaluations goes single-tier is a guy who has fantastic awareness in terms of peripheral vision setting up his timing of his, you know, in terms of his pacing any as good footwork. And he's very patient. And because but the problem is is that he's short he's small. He's slow and he's not very quick. And so he disguises some of that quickness or is able to come and say it with his vision, but I'm just not positive that he has the athletic skills that are going to be good enough that he can come. Compensate for with his vision in the NFL game. So he's in a crowded depth chart with, you know, in buffalo where maybe they trade the Shawn McCoy and certainly reporting Frank gore both older guys who, but they're both still find players in Frank Gore's is just an anomaly in football in terms of his age. And I've heard people joke that he's the best slow player that they've ever seen it, you know, at the running back decision. But he's the guy that you know, running back coach is pretty much give tape of the young guys to learn. But even with beyond those guys TJ Yeldan has developed into a really competent running back. Am I think is a sound one as well? So I think single Terry has a tough time, and we look at Trayvon Williams shirt geo Bernard may be gone, you know, sooner than later and be with somebody else. But Joe mixing certainly a fine talent. And and took that next step last year from his rookie year. And then you still have you know, the, the rookie Anderson who got draft. Alongside Ronnie Anderson local home, and if he can stay healthy, get healthy and stay healthy. I don't think I don't think Trayvon Williams that at best Trayvon Williams gets the geo Bernard role but his blocking while it's gotten better, and he's become a very good blocker. You look at his contact balance. And I have concerns about that. When he gets downhill yet. He can he can work downhill and get under people in move people little bit. But at the same time when you see a guy lose direct collisions with defensive backs even Cornerbacks. And they're flat sorted, and you're running downhill with a good runway, and you still can't get headway, and you fall backwards, and it happens repeatedly there. There's only one guy I've seen over the past fourteen fifteen years, I've tracked and studied who's failed in that contact balance area for my evaluation and has had a successful starting tenure in that was Marlin MAC last year. That's the only guy. So, you know, I've I've studied you know, hundreds and hundreds of running backs at this point. So those are two guys that concern me a little bit. And then I would say it's I think JJ Sega Whiteside is a fine player. But it's kind of an interesting fit for me. Just because it he's more to me. He's more of an Al Sean Jeffrey type of player you already have Jeffrey in that lineup. Are you're gonna have to guys at plan that level Zack in or hurt. In terms of the diversity of what you wanna do with your wide receiver core is going to be enough. And he fights the ball little bit. He catches the ball with his palms. I more than his fingertips. I and that allows the ball to kind of ricochet in a way where you have little fighting the ball and double catching the ball. And I think against tighter coverage that's gonna be interesting to see if he can fix that pretty quickly. And then the last guy on mentioned, his Preston Williams who is an undrafted free agent. But a guy who I kinda. Joked that AJ greens type of wide receiver physically conceptually, technically is like the all pro version of that model of wide receiver then you can look at at Preston Williams and say he's kind of like the the borderline starter kit. You know, the guy who might be able to develop into a starter. But not be quite as good as what green offers in that package, but in he's a guy who's had some off-field issues and a lot of it has been, you know, he's got to become a more mature professional while. I don't rate a lot on character. When you, you know, someone who lived in Miami knowing that by we all know that Miami's a place where you can have a lot of fun that you can also get into a lot of trouble in Miami. It's much more out there in front of you. And I wonder about the fit I like the fit for the team. But we'll see I think pretty quickly as especially if he performs well and gets you know embraced by the team. Team. And by the public for what he's able to do on the field whether he can stay mature off the field. And if he can do that in Miami he can do that anywhere. But if he can't we're going to hear about very soon. Well, now that you've all heard about Matt wall minute, you hadn't already you to check out the rookie scouting portfolio. And you gotta follow him on Twitter at Matt wallman as you can tell he is excellent anybody their rights over thousand pages about anything. Is a total psycho who I do. I. Appreciate matt. Thanks much coming on the show member going through it again soon. Ross. It's always a pleasure. Thanks again. You know, the cool thing about Matt is just the amount of time. He puts in his process, and you can actually take some of his thoughts and go to bed online dot AG for some of the rookie prop pets that. They already have up there. So if you're a fantasy guy obviously met drops on a knowledge from fantasy football perspective. But if you like to bet on things and make games more interesting or make seasons. More interesting. There's a lot of rookie prop up at bed online dot AG. And if you just use the promo code podcast one you get that fifty percent, welcome bonus. So maybe you want to bet on the conference finals that start tonight in the NBA Steve fezzet, and I will be talking about that on the college on the even money podcast today. We. Wanna make sure you get Steve starts before you place, any wagers on the conference finals Tiger Woods in the PGA. Steve's all over that. Or maybe just wanna bet some profits over a bed online dot AG using promo code podcast one. They'll do it for the college draft today. Certainly check out yesterday's Ross Tucker football podcast. There was so much news to get to since I've been away for a week and hadn't done any tuck stakes. There was a lot. And they're all be be a lot of conversations tomorrow with Andrew Brandt on the raw soccer football podcast such as Joe flacco to mentor or not to mentor. That is the question of the net. The cakes kicked man, we're all tapped out. Enjoying your frosty. One while listening to the college draft. Chuck, Chuck, Chuck, Chuck, Chuck, make sure you're subscribing to the Russ Tucker football podcast fantasy feast and even money. Punt casts all available on items and Russ Duggar dot com or wherever podcasts can be found. It's the Memorial Day sale at mattress firm. Enjoy one of the best mattress holidays of the year. With one of the best deals around. Get a king matches for the price of a Queen. And Queen for the price of a twin that storewide savings of up to seven hundred dollars on the best brands like a new cert- of memory foam Queen mattress for the price of a twin for only three hundred ninety seven dollars. Hurry in your budget stretches further at mattress firm. Restrictions apply. Visit participating locations only for over heels. Visit mattressfirm dot com slash sale.

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Introducing the DPSS Podcast

Disability Programs Specialized Services

01:17 min | 11 months ago

Introducing the DPSS Podcast

"Watch ya hello. I'm cynthia miller waldman and you're listening to the disability programs specialized services podcasts Disability programs is a regional team at the health board of social services of james bay quebec. We are a team of healthcare professionals. Social workers behavior specialists. Our role is to support the staff working with create individuals their families and caregivers who need assistance because of a physical or intellectual disability like autism. Adhd you can learn more about our team and our work by following us on facebook on instagram on twitter our twitter address hp dp s or on our website at disability programs specialized services dot org or we host a numerous amount of lumps. Before we get started. Please remember the discussions on this. Podcast are for information only. Please do not use the information. This podcast to replace professional help from a doctor or other specialists.

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What science taught me about being a Muslim drag queen | TEDx SHORTS

TED Talks Daily

05:58 min | Last month

What science taught me about being a Muslim drag queen | TEDx SHORTS

"Hey everyone continuing our ted audio collective friday theory something a little different today. An episode from another ted podcast ted ex shorts featuring writer and drag performer amru alcott. This might sound a little while. But it's fascinating i'll cut. It uses the paradoxes of quantum physics to better understand identity. If you enjoy it find tech shorts wherever you're listening to this like ted talks. You should check out the ted radio hour with npr. Stay tuned after this talk to hear sneak peek of this week's episode contradictions of come to govern my life as a queer person raise muslim. Contradictions have belief systems. Almost tore me apart. Scientifically the very foundation of our world is full of contradictions. Quantum physics is a glorious and strange sector physics that caused quite a stir in the twentieth century world of science whereas classical newtonian physics was extensively interested in observable reality on a macro scale and was interested in finding the fixed rules and formula governor universe at large quantum physics is interested in the very smallest things in our universe the quantum physicists atoms. A huge even the things that make up atoms neutrons protons electrons. They're huge quantum physics is interested in the very smallest subatomic particles in the hague's on leptons quirks and the way the subatomic particles behave has defied what we thought were fixed. Principles of our universe. So i'll explain this with the most simple experiment. Which is the most famous experiment which is basically you have a wall with two slits and you foreign electrons through the war electoral either go through the left or right hole. And we'll be detected on the reader on the other end but every now and then the same electron finds itself going through both holes at the same time and it's detected in two places so the same electron finds itself in more than one place at the same time. It kind of revealed that reality was a set of constructs so by that. I mean we can only really observe an abstracted or kind of limited version of the multiple events happening the core of things and so with this knowledge. I decided to do something that i promised myself. I wouldn't since the age of thirteen. I reread the koran. I wanted to see if there was anything i could find in. That would help me find harmony between my queer identity as if both could system simultaneously like those mischievous subatomic particles when i reread the koran. I came across these two wonderful passages about allah that he is the one who shapes you in the womb as he pleases and of his signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the differences of your tongues and colors. The first time. I read that it was the first time i could hold the koran without an to repel it here. It was in this ancient text. The idea that difference in variance or pov alice plan maybe treats human beings in the same way. I love to think about marine aquatics. As a kind of collection of interchanging formless bodies that all coexist as one colorful mass. i'd always pictured is a kind of fish stick punisher who build the universe on rigid lines but the more i read the koran congress that allah envisioned the universe and the same model of quantum physics chaotic and full of multiplicity. The more i read the more. I found when i first learned about whirling dervishes. Youtube of all places was the space i could most directly see myself and i couldn't believe the stuff. I was seeing muslims wearing big billowing. White skirt side without do kim kardashian. On her wedding day limping their wrists and twirling around the sound of an imam singing. I directly identified with the muslims. I was seeing on screen. Who each searching for higher meaning through costume ritual music. I realized that. I'm doing the exact same thing every time i mean drag. I'm searching for a transcendental connection which is sort of brought to me through the collective queer energy of the audience now before a drag show. I actually liked to do muslim prayers and it helps me to feel really spiritually grounded and his show is a kind of religious experience. A ruined united in the collect in this sort of celebration of indifference when a show goes particularly. Well it gives me a kind of faith effaced. Maybe even alice plan was for me to twelve around on a skirt on stage to find not only myself. The ala like surface muslim centuries. Before me. So i'm not a fully traditional muslim. What you think is normal sense now. But i've found great piece and thinking of alor as a kind of gender queer matriarchal protector. Sort of like an aquatic being with vape pronoun. They flow through me and tell me to embody all the contradicting subatomic particles. That make me who i am. I used to think that. I didn't belong in this universe because of contradictions contradictions. And now the reason. I know i belong firmly in this universe so the next time you find yourself. Battling a contradiction ideas beliefs or identities. Don't run away from them instead. Baskin the puzzle of who you are for in multiplicity. There is magic. In twenty nineteen explorer ariel waldman packed up her microscope went to antarctica and spent weeks peering into the ice is really brimming with life and a lot of different locations. It's just that most of it is invisible to us ideas about traveling beyond what we can see through the looking glass. That's next time on the ted radio hour from npr. Subscribe or listen to the ted radio hour wherever you get your podcasts.

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As FBI Tackles Chinese Espionage, Some Fear A New Red Scare

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

47:55 min | 1 year ago

As FBI Tackles Chinese Espionage, Some Fear A New Red Scare

"From NPR and WBU BOSTON. I'm Robert Siegel in for mega truck regarding this week. And this is on point as China and the United States Jockey for position as the world's great superpower one of the sore points in that competition is knowledge. Intellectual Property Advanced Technologies China. Our authorities tell us is climbing to the top not just by virtue of hard work but with a wholesale campaign to steal that knowledge from US campuses corporations and governments but as the FBI has cracked down. My I guess today says they've often arrested. Chinese and American researchers who are innocent and Chinese scholars say this has created a climate of fear. The new red scare even this hour on point China the United States espionage real and imagined and with me from San Francisco is Peter Waldman these investigative reporter for Bloomberg News and he's published a series of stories called the China scare. You can find a link to his reporting on our website On Point Radio DOT ORG computer. Welcome to one point. Thank you Robert and before you talk with us about your reporting I'd like us all to hear what. Fbi Director Christopher Wray said last April to the council on Foreign Relations when he offered his assessment of the intelligence threat that China poses for the US. China has pioneered a societal approach to stealing innovation in any way it can from a wide array of businesses universities and organizations. They're doing it. Through Chinese intelligence services. There stayed on enterprises through extensively private companies through graduate students and researchers through a variety of actors. All working on behalf of China put plainly China's scenes determined to steal. Its way up the economic ladder at our expense key phrase for our purposes here this hour in that statement through graduate students and researchers Peter Waldman before we hear about would you report on as abuses By the FBI and other agencies do you accept. Christopher raise assessment of the threat posed by China of course There is no denying that China Harbors what one might describe as an avaricious for American technology and capabilities Intellectual property proprietary information of all kinds. It's a very large country. That has outsized ambition so There's no denying that We have found in this country mainly through the FBI A good deal of attempt at taking American intellectual property so Let's stipulate that right up front then comes the application of Of that Policy of trying to to Crackdown on Chinese espionage. You Begin by describing the case of a woman who was a cancer researcher in the United States Chinese American woman. Yes Dr Chiffon Woo at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. Tell us about what about what happened. What did she do? And how did she get investigated? So we published a cover story in Bloomberg BusinessWeek Magazine last summer about a number of cases at MD Anderson Which is really an extraordinary institution in terms of researching cancer and She fung who was one of their extraordinary researchers. She is an epidemiologist Who Spent Twenty seven years there? until Last year two thousand nineteen when she was essentially Ousted sent away after A lengthy investigation that involved the FBI and included Probes of some five Important chinese-american researchers at the end of the day. Four of whom were as I say sent off. I don't want to Define that in too many legalistic terms like fired or terminated. Some of them left of their own volition but suffice it to say that Md Anderson and this investigation made it very difficult for them to stay and what was she suspected of what was what was the the claim. So the claim is that they were Undertaking arrangements in China with Chinese universities and researchers that they were not disclosing to MD Anderson or more importantly actually to the National Institutes of health. Which is the primary H- Biomedical Research Funder in the United States. This very large Part of the Federal Government that makes grants to people doing biomedical research and it requires always has by the way long predating this period That researchers disclose all of their funding and collaborations with other parties including four and collaborations and They in the course of their investigation. And when I say they it was It was first undertaken by the FBI and ultimately than with MD Anderson They found Through email contacts between she fung Wu and her collaborators and China a number of discussions Draft contracts and other situations in which she wanted to collaborate and was collaborating with Chinese scientists than institutions and had not disclosed that on her grant forms And so she basically was Interrogated question there were reports written up and at the end of the day it ma- they made it untenable for her to stay at MD Anderson and now she's back as the dean of A Very Large Public Health program in China so she left the country but the information that she presumably would have had access to You reported this was about the epidemic of cancer. Do I have that right yeah? So here's where the hard part of all this comes in. Which is we're essentially talking about what we've always referred to as basic research or In in this case epidemiology which essentially looks for causes of cancer and the at the end of the day is is an effort to prevent cancer by warning people about not eating. Let's say barbecued foods and not eating certain other substances or exposing yourself to air pollutants and other things. It's preventative part of the Biomedical Research. Enterprise and she was a specialist at this person who amassed extraordinary amounts of data both from. Us patients In the south what out in the southern part of the country through MD Anderson's patients shed so to speak where all there folks are coming from as well as Asian databases of patients there and This didn't matter in the end because This disclosure issue proved so important in this sort of heightened political rivalry or international economic rivalry with China. That the goalposts are sort of changing. And that's really a key thing to keep in mind after years of promoting collaborative research in China the and others are essentially discouraging it but to be in possession of The most up-to-date information the most up-to-date me logical information about cancer May Give One nation and edge up in the war against cancer but We're not talking about designing Warheads or something like that would obviously be very concerned about if that information were being passed to another power basic science cancer prevention. In this case Is Not generally thought of as a proprietary piece of information or technology. But I think My interview with The principal deputy director of the NIH A JAL name Lawrence. Tailback really spelled it out. I mean Mr Dr Taeb told me that even something that is in the fundamental research space an all add epidemiology to that And Dr Tailback says that's absolutely not classified has an intrinsic value. He called these things pre patented material That are the antecedents to creating intellectual property. So what he's basically saying is there as I said he's really expanded. The scope of what we think of is protected and proprietary information and is saying we shouldn't be helping China at all In essence in pursuing that agenda by cracking down on were always considered administrative or technical violations in these disclosure requirements. So that's sort of what's going on here is your reporting which is very detailed about Several cases are they about several rotten apples in a very large barrel. Or do you think that What you're finding is a trend which is overly aggressive investigation of Chinese American or Chinese citizens who are doing research in the United States That's a hard question to answer. Because obviously we're not privy to the files of literally tens and tens of thousands of Of people of Chinese ancestry who are doing science in the United States parenthetically? We rely on these people in our universities and companies to do much of the great technological and scientific work. That's going on there so it's hard to say I can only say that In in these cases that have emerged as many questions arise concerning how they were how they were targeted why the charges which in several cases are felonies Have been escalated to the point where they have and specifically in the MD Anderson case real questions of potential racial profiling. Because in that case you actually had a situation where. Md Anderson handed over some twenty. Three computer accounts of its employees Without a subpoena to the FBI and It was in the context of China. These China investigations when I asked them. We're all of those people Of Chinese ancestry they would not answer the question so presumably they were. Although I will say that is a presumption and the question of racial profiling becomes very important here. That's an element in your reporting and whether it is fair or not. It's widely perceived. You say among Chinese researchers in America. Yeah they there is a kind of siege mentality. Frankly everywhere in the United States among Chinese Americans In science at the moment because of these high profile cases. It's something that A legal scholar and lawyer named Andrew. Kim Who wrote a long paper about espionage cases involving People with Chinese names Because no one can be sure. They're they're Chinese but anyway he he had some very interesting results. We're going to hear the story of one researcher one professor of physics who actually experienced a being investigated. We're talking about the government's fears of wholesale espionage by Chinese on American campuses Fears that American that the FBI and other agencies may be getting paranoid about going after the innocent. I'm Robert Siegel and this is on point planet. Money is the mountaineer economist behind the carbon tax. It's the baseball player. Trying to get a pay. Raise the prisoner building a blockchain out of cans of mackerel planet money from NPR. Listen now this is on point. I'm Robert Siegel and I've been talking with investigative reporter. Peter Waldman of Bloomberg News about his series called the China's scare which finds that over his L. S. F. B. I. Another law enforcement may be creating a climate of fear on. Us campuses arresting innocent scholars sharing their research legitimately with Chinese scholars in their effort to ferret out. Those who really are sharing sensitive technologies but the government of China and Peter. Let introduce a researcher. Now who is a naturalized citizen of the United States who faced the wrath of the FBI and his own story has his own story to tell a Xiaojing? She is a professor of physics at Temple University and he joins us from Philadelphia professor. She a welcome to our program on point. Thank you for having me over. Tell us what you what you were investigated for exactly I also charged for arriving Made a device that was covered. I A non disclosure agreement with A. US Company for a Chinese collaborator which is totally false. The device in question I gather is it's called a pocket warmer Pocket Heater Puckett Heater. It's not we're not talking about something to put in your pocket in. The winter was just as a sophisticated electronic device. No it's a it's a device that we use to make us in materials and the accusation. Was that you shared information about that. Device with a researcher in China that is cracked But the fact is that. I've never shared any information of the H- Takahiro. Was Anybody in China. Did you share information about something More innocent with researchers in China Well you know I collaborate with scientists all over the world including those from China and In the collaboration with Chinese leaders all collaborators around the world They're all based on the Property Stir results and the mostly on my own published the results in two thousand fifteen. You're arrested yes I love and what happened. What was that like well? You know it was in the early morning in May and I was woken up by a loud knock on my door The party was so hard into urgent rental open door without even fully dressed and I saw many people outside of my house and Some or armed and some heart battering Ram ready to take on my door and so An FBI agent is my name and announce that I was arrested and another one turned me around it against the wall. Put the handcuffs on me so I absolutely no idea why this was happening. And they wouldn't tell me and I'm You know the armed agents in bullet vast Rushing to my house running around and yelling. Fbi they point their guns To my wife and daughters and one by one. They walked out of the bathroom with their hands. Raised you know I was really very worried that this must be very frightening to them and the only thing I can I think of was that don't do anything that will lead them shoot us. You know when when they took me away from my House. I had absolutely no idea one I would See my family okay. You know I grew up during Cultural Revolution in China. In bed time It was not unusual for people being taken away and could not see their families forever round on time. Five months after your arrest By the FBI. Charges were dropped Actually last time for less than four months after after the rest and you're now suing the FBI. Gather Yes I am. How did how charges dropped did you. Did you have a a an attorney? Made a good case against what they claimed her. Did you interrogation go badly by their standpoint? What happened My actually my my. My lawyers contacted expert in my field And gave them all my email communications with my Chinese clever eaters Because you know there were four Confidence me based on four emails. I sent to my colleagues in China and so my lawyer gave them all my emails and awesome to see whether there's any evidence that I shared the poppy either information with people in China and also he contacted a event or one of the inventors off the pocket heater and all of them that that there was no evidence that I share any information about a heater from the communication that I had always Chinese colleagues in I I I saw reported Perhaps by By Peter Waldman that The device that you did share information about and pocket heater were comparing toaster with a microwave oven. They both. They both may achieve a similar result. But they're very different technologies that there will be a good analogy. So I I WANNA ask. Peter Waldman a question here We have law enforcement Making making judgments of about science and technology that obviously you have to be pretty sophisticated to know what's a pocket heater in. And what isn't a pocket heater? Who's doing that work guard do we have droves of people at the FBI who really know their way around All all the frontiers of cutting edge technology. So I think Dr. She's cases a classic one where it shows that we do not have that expertise within the FBI and of course FBI's resourceful and tries to get consultation in understand these technologies but depending on the amount of pressure depending on the intensity of a dragnet as we're in now They will or won't take the proper steps to really understand what they're doing and when we opened the show by listening to Director of the FBI explain what he believes is the urgency the the intensity of the threat were now under from China. And you can imagine the ripple effects that causes agitation that causes throughout federal law enforcement agencies and the F. B. I. has something called the China initiative which allowed was was started by attorney general sessions after doctor sees experience. But it pretty well encapsulates. What's going on here? Which is that. There is a real intense focus on Potential Chinese espionage and lots of allegations and accusations out there that that just don't add up and I there's there's data behind us we can see these trends develop I was starting to mention Andrew. Kim's work In that paper he showed that from ninety seven to own nine Seventeen percent of all espionage cases broad in the US involved People with Chinese names That rate tripled to fifty two percent between two thousand and nine in two thousand fifteen. So you can just see the focus on Chinese there More importantly twenty percent of those people accused in that period. Who had Chinese names had no serious convictions? Versus ten percent of non Chinese name so that led to Andrew. Kim Sort of coining this term researching while Asian which is sort of akin to driving while african-american. I'd like to ask professor she about this. Because among people who have been arrested one notable person was Dr Charles Lieber. Who is the chair of Harvard University Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology He was arrested at his Harbored office and then placed on administrative leave He was one of those who is charged with lying about ties to China and They were accused of trying to help. The Chinese government does the fact that you don't have to be of Chinese Background to be arrested. Does it lessen your sense that this is that there's a a racial dimension to this or do you see it that way well actually After my case I learnt Several things first of all Won The trash. Somebody of stealing secrets for China. It is not always. It's not necessarily two like in my case all right. The second thing is that the training assigned is being treated unfairly. And the third point I would say is that these people these VR agency agency. Mike they had absolutely no idea how academia research is done and they did. What they are doing is threatening the open environment insomnia research. You know Peter mentioned this We're talking. I'm not talking about classified information. I'm not talking about sensitive information. I'm talking about the fundamental research and The the government policy that governs. This is their so called an SDS at nine. That's reassured by president. Reagan that sounds. The fundamental research should be unrestricted to the To the extent possible to So we we. Are you know these people are trying to crack down on the research which is actually hurting American leadership in science and technology? But let's say let's say they're that they're wrong about where they've drawn. The line on which research should or should not be shared with with China's. Would you dispute the argument that Fbi Director Ray made the statement. He made that. There is a strong Chinese campaign to steal intellectual property from from wherever they can in the United States including university laboratories I can say is I recommend you to read Jason report which is released commissioned by the National Science Foundation. And that the examining the fact that you know these elites groups of You know scientists they have access to all the Classified information from the intelligence community after they studied this they were saying that the scale and the scope off the far influence is poorly defined. And this kind of disk failure to disclose and and so should be investigated and adjudicated by the Funding Agency and universities Asti presumptive violations of researching parody with the consequences similar to those currently in price for scientific misconduct not by FBI. Not Throwing jail. You know when I hear when I hurt the the pace of you know Charles Lever. I want to tell people I wanted to tell people. One child's Lieber. It is presumed innocent until proven guilty to from my own personal experience while the government charges is non necessarily true listeners. Have you experienced or seen law enforcement on your campus Chinese and Chinese American scholars arrested or accused of spying for China? Do you think this could become a new kind of program against legitimate scholars doing legitimate work? Peter Waldman I mentioned the case of of Dr. Charles Lieber Chinese national who was arrested at the same time had neglected to disclose On his On his immigration visa application. That he happened to be a lieutenant in the Chinese military This is what the FBI says That he had not disclosed that That would you agree that. That's that's a pretty serious lapse if you're going to be doing a sensitive research first of all let's completely separate the two cases you just mentioned okay and. I think there was some intentional effort in Boston when US Attorney Office the process federal prosecutors indicted. Charles Lieber To Mix those They there was some reference to that. They were related cases They are absolutely disconnected cases. Charles Lieber and the two other individuals of Chinese ancestry who were arrested and announced. They weren't arrested that day. But the their indictments were announced that day they have nothing to do with each other including that person who failed to disclose their military tie and it was curious that the US Attorney's office in Boston would have connected them that day As far as Charles Lieber goes on your question about does it. Sort of mitigate concerns that now we have a non Chinese person arrested on very similar charges. I think it it is important for for our law enforcement to show that this is not an a total exercising in racial profiling and that they are concerned with anybody Not disclosing their Chinese ties. so to that extent it is important There's a whole another dimension to the Charles Lieber case which is that. He was a quite extraordinary example of someone who worked with Chinese in in and and showed in his lab illustrated the importance of Chinese brain power in the United States because he completely relied on Chinese post Docs and PhD students in his laboratory to do extraordinary research. That's Peter Waldman of Bloomberg News Published a series of stories called the China's scare And we're talking about that subject with him Professor She Is there now a chilling effect on university researchers when it comes to collaborating with scientists in in China on any on any subject That one could imagine any scientific subject anyway yesterday so I I know many people who stop their collaboration with colleagues in China and there are some university. Advise them to stop this kind of connection. Well when you were arrested. Did your university a come to your support Did IT Provide any legal assistance. did testify on your behalf. No University did not provide any legal assistance and I have to find myself and to pay my lawyer myself. How much did you end up paying lawyer? In this case I am not paying more than Two hundred twenty thousand dollars and we consider ourselves to be lucky because he was only four months. I mean if you if you had one to try it will be a lot more the case against you as you described Fell apart in a few months had the the the FBI gone to the Pfizer Court In order to get permission to surveilled and ultimately to arrest you yes they told us so They have Used the size of Lawrence to Do the The lack of electronic and physical surveillance on me and presumably the judge in the court would have seen so we had to see some evidence or these claim that there is some evidence before granting that surveillance the the The okay for that you village you know I. I have no way of knowing but that. But that's what you were told. Peter Waldman I asked you earlier about whether the F. B. I. Has the experience to evaluate of these cases where there has the knowledge to evaluate these cases There's the Pfizer Court. Have the ability to evaluate case device accord. Which has a remarkable rate of approving government requests for surveillance Well I guess it depends on what expertise the prosecutors bring to it when it's making when they're making the case Fis as a is a problematic situation all on itself and I note that in Dr She's the lawsuit against the government in his case The American Civil Liberties Union has joined that case focused on just this point that there may have been what we would consider unwarranted or with You know surveillance without a warrant for an American citizen in this case and I know they're very concerned with that. The case that we're talking about that of professor she from Temple University That was over very quickly with anybody else. Temple arrested In in case you the only the only the only one and Well we'll have more questions for you a little bit later. We're talking about the FBI's response to fears of Chinese espionage An American laboratories in American laboratories on American campuses She I'm sorry Zhaojing. She is a professor of physics at Temple University and he joined us from Philadelphia professor. She thanks for your time today. Thank you and this is on point. Let me tell you about up. I the podcast from NPR news. It's short ten or twelve minutes. It's a way to guide you through the news. You need to start your day all the people from NPR. Come together to bring you the most essential news in an overwhelming news environment. Listen to up I every morning from. Npr news this is on point. I'm Robert Siegel and we're talking about China's broad program to acquire American know how insensitive technologies by appealing to or pressuring ethnic Chinese academics and fears that they may be going too far the FBI. That is interesting. The wrong people on the basis of racial profiling. My guest is Peter. Waldman investigative reporter for Bloomberg News published a series of stories on what he says has been F. B. I. overreach on American campuses. Add like to bring in another voice here joining us from Stanford California is Larry Diamond. He's a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and he was co chair of a two thousand nineteen study of Chinese influence campaigns and espionage American campuses and he co edited the final report which was titled China's influence and American interests promoting constructive. Vigilance Larry Welcome to one point. Thank you nice to be with you. you've been listening to Peter. Waldman has said to it to professor. She has said Do do you agree with their concerns. Well I I certainly am concerned and we warned about this in our report That we need to be very careful. We need to be very other than spaced and we need to absolutely avoid ethnic profiling My heart goes out to professor. She two hundred thousand dollars is a lot of money for you. Know any ordinary academic And that doesn't begin to grasp the psychological distress they Exhibit they experienced but Robert. There's another side to this story. And that is all of the valid cases that are are being produced and The very disturbing charges that are coming forward and it's not just about professors who Have been here for some time in the United States And the issues that need to be raised about transparency because there is significant evidence that many of them are not just kind of forgetting to disclose something but in a number of cases are engaged in. You know I'd say energetic efforts at deliberate odds few station of their ties to Foreign Research Collaboration. It's also The graduate students and researchers that was Republic of China is sending in here who are often failing to disclose their ties. And if I may I would urge people to not only focus on the case of Professor Lieber who is alleged. Let's keep in mind. He is as the right to be presumed innocent until the courts adjudicate on this but is alleged to have not disclosed The money he was receiving I think it was fifty thousand dollars a month for a period of time for his research collaboration in China which is also a lot of money and adds up to a lot more than what professor she had to mobilize for his legal defense But in addition there were two other individuals From China who were charge? I should say one of them one of them. I had the the wrong gender on when I when I am alluded to young. Chechnya I guess guys go ahead She is a lieutenant in the People's Liberation Army who failed to disclose that on her visa and the the third one was a cancer researcher again in Boston. At Beth Israel deaconess neck and medical center. Who's accused of trying to smuggle twenty-one vials of biological research in his sock in his luggage back to China so I mean there is another side to this and I would urge all of your listeners at some point to look at an Australian Research report from last year called picking flowers making honey that describes the elaborate efforts of the People's Republic of China to penetrate the research institutes of Australia with large numbers of researchers from research institutes and universities connected explicitly to the Chinese military who were Failing to disclose their ties To the military industrial apparatus before we hear from some of our listeners. I I want to hear from Peter Waldman and hear Peter. Hear your response To what Larry Diamond has just said so? I think that Larry makes very valid points about the number of cases that do show disturbing things I think it's also important to point out that in characterizing some of those cases particularly in the very report that he at the Hoover Institution and the Asia Society published. In late two thousand eighteen There are a number of characterizations errors and mistakes that call into question. The sort of overall vigor and in intent of such a report and Larry Just frankly made one right here when he referred to Charles Lever as having received fifty thousand dollars a month Which is of course. Absolutely not even in the indictment is all. The indictment says is that there were contracts that offered him that amount. The government didn't say whether he received anything close to that in fact he didn't even specify some so i. I think the facts each of these cases are very important Right there is an error and there were errors in in hoover report so wow Larry and several people on Panel that produce our report Point out extremely important things to be wary of Has Does Director Ray? We need to get the facts right before we are tarring and feathering five million American. I need an Larry Diamond would you? Would you concede Erin what you said or did you? Would you stand by? Uh Look? Peter has been looking at the individual cases more than I have. I'm going on a media report I read so I accept what he said about. Professor Lieber We made the same point about not Stereotyping or making judgments on Chinese Americans or on Chinese Graduate students who are coming here but the fact is there is massive documentation of large-scale theft of intellectual property in the United States by large number of means and what Peter has not given adequate attention to. And what has not yet been aired? I think adequately On your show yet. Robert is that much of this technology theft even if it's basic research can be You know plowed back into the military modernization of the People's Liberation Army and is being done so and it is part of China's deliberately Articulated strategy to do so and then all of the genetic data that they're trying to capture through a a number of means many of the past Sala g analyses that are being done in American hospitals. Now are being sent to China for Analysis. Many of the genetic testing. That's that people are doing on themselves to find out. Their ancestry is being sent to China. Do we know anything about? China is storing that data. Even if it's an anonymous to assemble genetic profiles that the American population I can tell you that national security planners in the United States are worried that a lot of this data could be assembled into the development of biological weaponry. Let's hear from from the audience. Here Chris in Oriole evolved places Oriental North Carolina is on the line. Chris what do you say Hello I think that perhaps an easy approach to this to get rid of the racial profiling etc would be put clauses in the contracts for any foreign nationals coming over to the United States that gives us certain rights to look into their communications and so forth. Because when I sign an employment contract I signed nine. Complete non compete clauses and other things unique to the level of the job. And what I'm doing to have a security clearance. I have to do all kinds of things anything. Whether it's a graduate student or professor researcher even down into some of our substantial industries like aerospace and chemicals pharmaceuticals. They should all have to sign something that says we release and give up the right. The Americans have to inspection without court order in to be fired if we find out we. We've lied or we talk some sort of collusion with our home. And they're saying that if I were a foreign national doing scientific research in the US. I should sign over permission to survey me Without a without a subpoena not necessarily permission to survey all you but Not necessarily having to go to the hoops. If you if your employer feels the reason check you out. It shouldn't have to go through The channels that would happen for normal. Okay Chris Thanks Peter Waldman a does that sound plausible to you or or or completely out of bounds. Well employers do not have to go through those hoops as it stands today because all of us Who used communications whether they're online accounts or cell phones or other things provided by our employer Including universities you know are at the subject of of Surveillance. I mean they can look at our stuff which is how a lot of this Go you know a lot of this stuff gets ferreted out importantly I do want to say one thing about Larry in his effort at Hoover. Which is they are very focused their on not wanting to profile. And so I wanNA grant them that that that that there is a real concern. And in fact I think that the Larry's report is at the forefront of a really important question here which is how do we both secure proprietary information and make sure that it doesn't fall into the hands of the Chinese military while not succumbing to a kind of McCarthy aesthetic impulse and it's not easy I mean we are certainly in a situation now where you have China under President Xi Jinping overreaching on on many many fronts including this one The estimate? How do we react? We don't want to overreact. I think Susan Shirk of Peter. Were having some problems with your with your phone line which we should while we see if we can repair that. I want to hear what Larry Diamond's colleague On that report or Orrville Shell of the Asia Society had to say one year ago When he tried to assure Chinese Chinese American scholars efforts to tempt on Chinese espionage a would not turn into a witch hunt based on their ethnicity. Please believe US one your side. We don't want to see a pogrom. I live in a household that speaks Chinese. My kids speaks Chinese. My my wife is Chinese. I WANNA see us go where you're afraid we're going to go but this is a challenge. America has to confront every time it faces up to a challenge. Can it be judicious enough and temporary to answer? Problem without demonizing people Larry Diamond. That's that's the sentiment that you were. Also expressing has the reaction from the Chinese American scientific community Been positive for suspicious well We have engaged leaders of the Chinese American community. I'm not Kinda give you chapter and verse but We've had some significant discussions and we welcome more Orville is not the only member of our working group. There are several Who has significant Chinese family ties and I think an way to look at this conversation. We're having this hour. Robert is the Peter and I are focused on frankly different angles of obviously and interconnected problem. If you look at it from the I'd say quite legitimate and fair investigative Angler perspective that. Peter is pursuing There are really serious problems. And we've gotten it wrong or clumsily and abusively so many times in our history that we can't dismiss these concerns on the other hand if you start from the orientation we have which Peter acknowledged. We do have serious problems. We're facing an adversary That doesn't play by any of these rules. I mean look what happens to anyone who articulates any criticism of Xi Jinping in China there Treated a whole lot worse than our professor. She was in the United States. Who was on your show so we have to rise to a higher standard. It's Absolutely incumbent on who we are as a country and we won't be able to sustain this effectively if we Have a low tolerance for for abusive and ethnocentric behavior by law enforcement or research institutions or whomever. Peter Wildman and I. I should note here that in in the day's news some Wall Street Journal reporters. We've just expelled from China. And I gotTa that came after an article that was written that was critical of a relation of a sheet of of Sheesh of president. She Peter. What's your response to Larry Diamonds analysis of the difference between the two of you and your perspectives. I think he's spot on I'm not sure what came through before when I was speaking but we have a situation where China is overreaching and we just have to be very careful about overreacting and Susan Shirk of University of California at San Diego who was on Larry's panel That produced that report at Hoover Pointed out in her dissent because she was uncomfortable With with with what they with where they came out on this that That right now. She believed the harm. We could cause American society overreacting to this. China threat was actually greater than that caused by Chinese influencing influence seeking itself influence. Can being a little bit different than what we're talking about but the point is it's a really tough balancing act and I do believe Larry and Oroville Attempted that in their report. I just think it's a really dicey situation. When you've got five million people of a particular ethnic ancestry in the living in citizens in the United States many of whom are engaged in science and technology and the suspicion level rises to wear it has and Larry how many graduate students are there from China and the United States. Doing whatever. There's I don't know about three hundred and fifty thousand Chinese students in the United States. The majority of them are undergraduates. I can tell you how many graduates there are. It would be in the tens of thousands. Well thank you very much if we're talking with this Larry. Diamond is a senior fellow at Stanford. University's Hoover Institution he joined us from Stanford California and again. Thanks for your time and death. Peter Waldman is an investigative reporter for Bloomberg News. You can find links to his stories on our website On Point Org Peter thanks to you and thanks for bearing up with the phone problems there so much Robert and You all can continue the conversation and get the point podcast at our website on point radio dot org and you can follow us on twitter and find us on facebook at on point. Radio on point is produced by Anna Bowman. Justin down my Lena. Mata Brittany nuts Stephanie O. Could Saunas West Martin? Hillary mcquilken James Ross Story. Shammar Grace Tanner at an waller and Sydney Wertheim with help from Liam Knocks Caroline love and Bradley Noble. I'm Robert Siegel and this is on point.

China United States Peter Waldman FBI Robert Siegel Peter professor Bloomberg News investigative reporter Larry Diamond NPR Director researcher Md Anderson Larry BOSTON Andrew Hoover Institution Hoover
A note to our listeners

FP's The Editor's Roundtable (The E.R.)

02:02 min | 2 years ago

A note to our listeners

"Hey, your listeners I'm Sarah Waldman who's to foreign policy is podcast. Everyone has an opinion that's true at the dinner table. It's certainly true in the media. Here at foreign policy. We decided that for our flagship podcast, we wanted to try something different one person one on one. We're moving away from talking heads, the format that define the editor's roundtable for years. Instead each week, we bring someone to our studio experienced an important event directly protagonist or an eyewitness. We've been trying out this format for a few months. Now, with a range of people, you've probably noticed the difference. I interviewed governor Bill Richardson to get his take on Goshi eating with dictators. You never make a deal with North Korean sitting across a table. You do it on the sidelines, you do it after you've built some trust at a meal. You do it outside the formal negotiations process. I talked to former US ambassador, prudence, Bushnell, you what it was like to be at the embassy in Nairobi when it was bombed in nineteen ninety eight. Right? Train of percussion king with an enormous boom and threw me back. Shadowy figures went by the tea Cup began to rattle, and I thought I'm going to die and I met with American journalist Chason resigned who was imprisoned for eighteen months in Iran, do you hear what it's really like free Ronnie ins when sanctions are imposed, they would have to go into Turkey and somebody would have to get a prescription for a drug that they didn't need, then take wads of cash and you know, get it and bring it back to their sick relative in Iran, and then repeat and then repeat. So to reflect our new format, we have a new name first person. We think it tells you a bit about what matters most. We hope you'll keep listening and tell your friends about the show. Panoply.

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Episode 177: QB and RB Prospects with Matt Waldman

Establish The Run

56:33 min | 3 weeks ago

Episode 177: QB and RB Prospects with Matt Waldman

"They do welcome to episode one hundred. Seventy seven of the official established dot com. My name is adam. Levitin one of the founders charity tiahrt as always joined by fellow co founder. Evan silva in the twenty twenty one. Nfl draft is just two short weeks. Away it is time my friends to start getting educated about this class and for that we are joined by one of our favourite prospect evaluators. Aman man who is in the tape streets in always willing to stray from the heard. It is matt walden a football guys of the rookie scouting portfolio matt. Thanks for being here. has it going. It's going great. Thanks for having me. I'm psyched to do this with you. Guys yeah i know. It's a busy time for mad. He's only grinding tape for thousands of prospects. No big deal. Evan has gone today buddy. Great to have a matt waldman on the first time i ever heard about matt. Waldman was right after kris. Wesseling had come on at road. Chris wesseling actually how greg rosenthal who hire both of us found chris. Wesseling was on the football guys. Message boards talking about dynasty dynasty leagues and and in chris like started a blog. I think his name on the on the football guys message was fear and loathing or something like that and He kind of created a little bit of a following there in would right. You know big long post. But greg eventually found him in hired him the the late great chris wesseling by the way and he And he Introduced me to matt waldman's work with the rookie scouting portfolio which has become very very famous in in the in the dynasty in fantasy football community on. It's always great to be able to pick matt waldman's brain so glad we could have him. Yep for sure tillery. Do you remember this message. Boards at all at all matt have memories of that. Oh absolutely because the football guys at that time back in the mid the mid to late nineties i had Employees of mine who though we played fantasy leagues together and they wrote for kf l. Let's remember them nam. They sa- right on their newsletter. Wire like you gotta check out. Football guys message board. And i would check that out and i would. I would sit on. I would be on that for a while as well for those years in. What's funny is i. I sort of evan. Because greg rosenthal and his record della at rota world had had had extended an offer to me do some work. Where avenue and i we're going to be co workers but i was really interested in pursuing this traffic guy that i had and i remember greg and i tell the story occasionally i say you know i remember telling greg god i want to do and and his response was just pitch perfect. Because i would have done the same thing. If i were him he was like you could just right for our draft guide. You know and like he was any any said it in such a way like what's he thinking you know and i remember that i remembered it was a really tough decision because i remember thinking this is going to be fun and i remember he was telling me about. Yeah you'll were the sky. Evan selva and you guys will be doing some work together and this is what you'll you guys will be doing. And i turned it down. And i remember being. I remember being in my living in my in my living room with like no furniture. Not because it's a long story. But like watching sunday. Sunday night. Football and seen greg on on nbc at halftime gone. I better make this thing. Work man great to see how all that grew. And how you know evident how your careers grown. And then i you know and then getting the chance to do some stuff on ross talk show with you on fancy feast and so yeah. It's funny how things just in evolve. Especially when you look back in the industry's yeah well. There goes greg in corporate stiff again trying to get to work for the man. I'm glad i'm glad you worked out very well. But let's just say that time. I was thinking it better. Okay before we get into the show here wanna remind everyone was. I mock draft mock draft. One point is up on the site right. Now it is up for free we also have koreans rookie rankings up on the side dynasty rankings. Which include rookies. i'll be. I just posted a first round of the draft crops that i've taken last night so head to the site to check all that okay on today's show. We're gonna talk quarterbacks and running backs with matt we'll be back later in the week with. Pf might render to talk wide. Receivers and tight ends but today quarterbacks and running back. Let's start with quarterbacks here matt and i think there's at least been some rumblings. I don't feel strongly that the first five picks could actually all be quarterbacks for obviously the first time in the nfl draft hits. maybe they should all be quarterbacks. You know we'll see what atlanta decides to do if they want matt ryan successor. We'll see if the bengals trade their pick that someone who wants a quarterback in your opinion though. Does this quarterback class warrant that. Does it warrant five quarterbacks going in the first five picks just from a quality perspective at a high level of these guys. Everyone's talking about in the nfl in the way that they develop quarterbacks the way that they look at How they value the position. The answer is i would say four. Out of those five are worth a first round pick and the fifth one is probably a good fit for the organization that he's gonna go to and i'm sure we'll talk about You know in reality. I would say the. The development of the quarterback position is really bad in the nfl and that creates a desperation. That's kind of cyclical thing Which is why we are where we are and we're talking about having drafted early on because we could sit here and talk about draft capital in all those different things about why the success rates of players by round but a lot of that too comes with a bias of investing money. In how many chances. I get know in early rounds versus how many they get as late. Round guys for sure Let's start with. Everybody is number one. Trevor lawrence. I think for three years now. The nfl been waiting for this right. There have been waiting for trevor lawrence to enter the league. How would you compare. Trevor lawrence as some of these other quote unquote. Can't miss number one overall picks. I don't guys like paid. Manning comes on an entry lock and cam and stafford and maybe throw joe burrow in there guys who was like this guy is the lock number. One pick you know. There's no debate about it. How would you compare trevor lawrence and some of those other guys. I'd say if we were gonna put him on a continuum of players. I would say that he'd be somewhere between above matthew stafford and below andrew luck and i think that a lot of people looked at andrew locking. Oh sometimes hear rumblings about about lawrence and say i know andrew luck and but i think people forget that andrew luck had failings to he had. He certainly had some issues with his game. There wasn't a fire zone that he couldn't figure he often figured they couldn't figure out certain types of zone drops and things like that and when you look at lawrence. He plays in an offense where they ask them. Oftentimes to use a lot of I put like throwback type of misdirection plays that he can do but sometimes it it you know the way that he would executed the e would have questions about his accuracy in that regard. I'm in terms of throwing on the move and some of his mechanics there but overall you look at his game and you have to understand that this is someone who is technically signed with a steep. Yes i'm a terrific throwing motion when you look at what he can do on and off script he'll hang in the pocket make the small maneuvers. You wanna look for to be able to create space great time and find that second or third read. He's also very good outside the pocket at using his legs to manipulate defenders to create open passing lanes for his receivers. So he's someone that as well as he can run. He's also excellent at using that to his advantage to throw the ball downfield So i you know. I look at this guy and i feel like that. He's someone that is probably a. I think he's head and shoulders. The best quarterback in this class. And i think that the jacksonville is going to be in a good position. You know with him. I think they're gonna be. If gardner minshew new can have moments of plane. Well at times in terms of the skills that he had certainly defense has had a chance to figure them out after they looked at the tape and then point is weaknesses and kind of paint him into a corner but when they tried to do that with a guy like lawrence. You're going to see that he'll be able to work his way out of those corners more often than a guy like You know shoe. And he's going to have the weapons around him so this is going to be. This is pretty much a slam dunk. Pick me the primary traits really a culmination of traits for a quarterback that reaches. I dunno top ten status or would be considered a league or you know a perennial guy who's going for all pro or At the position would be they. They're capable of elevating the play of the players around them like andy. Dalton is a kind of that is maybe as good as as his supporting cast will will dictate. Where some some quarterbacks and i think it's through anticipation and giving you know with accuracy and giving the you know the past catchers a run after catch chances by putting the ball on their on their finger on their hands when they're in when they're moving or getting rid of the ball quickly making offensive line. Look better you think that Trevor lawrence Like can be that sort of quarterback l. l. the teammate elevator And you know make in immediately like early in his career With dj shark and louis cushion alden. Marvin jones i think was a nice pick up for them. And they're bringing back all their offensive linemen. And i think that darryl bevill their new oh see on a pretty good job of wherever wherever he has been in the context of that environment. Do you think that. Trevor warrants can be a guy that can help elevate like elevate this offense quickly to have early career success. I think he can. And i think the key there is. I'm i've always been kind of a a marvin jones stan guy because i think he's a he's a capable receiver who's very technically sound and can play multiple positions. And i think that's going to help out the younger receivers as a as an aging veteran. I think you'll be able to show these receivers a little bit more and has experienced working with you. Know a veteran quarterback. Who's pretty darn good. And i think that's going to be to lawrence but even when you look at lawrence's stats track. Track a variety of throwing stats with the ours. P. including on and off platform throws in the short intermediate vertical in deep ranges. I put those in fourteen yard increments. And i look at them. Know him also on the move and opposite hash. And when you look at i i judge pinpoint throws which are exactly the way you described it like a bill walsh. Were were still coaching. And you know. I i use this anecdote. Mike holmgren wants Complimented joe montana throat a jerry rice that wasn't component accurate and bill pulled home grim and aside and said the throw needs to be in stride. And you have to imagine it as if a defender is plastered to the guys back and if he's thrown exactly where the receiver can break towards the ball and catch it in stride. That's been point if he has to do anything other than that. That's not pinpoint accuracy. And so i'd grade in that fashion. When i'm looking at the college game even if the guy's running uncontested you know when you look at trevor lawrence is game you see that he hits those benchmarks pretty much In the short intermediate vertical areas of the field when he's on platform Same thing when he's off platform and then you know with his mobile accuracy. You can see also that it's pretty strong in the short intermediate game. Which is what you'd expect with flashes of skill in the vertical and deeb branches which you know to throw on the move like that. You're looking if you if you already have been born. Actually that high. You're talking about being an all pro player already you know. He's got some room for growth there. But this is someone who can make all those throws off and makes accurate throws and gives his receivers chance to to make plays in the fact that he does so well off script and he can create binds for defenders and be able to find intermediate targets while on the move because of the fact that he can manipulate defenses to me it's at intermediate range of the game. That's the most important because the short you know you can talk about short and deep. But it's that intermediate range that puts the defenders in a bind and if you're aces there then you're good to go pretty much everywhere else now. I want to ask just a quick fantasy question on trevor lawrence because as you've seen in today's nfl. It's really hard to wendy. S tournaments for guys. Like tom brady for guys. Who are a pocket passers drew brees etc to when you faster. Her is because they can't. It's harder for them to get forty points. It's harder for them to go there where they don't run. The ball we saw lawrence rushed for five hundred sixty three yards nine touchdowns as sophomore. What do you think of lawrence's rushing statistics ceiling floor range at the nfl level. You think he's going to be taken off running a ladder. Do you think that goes. I think it's going to be closer to what we saw with. Andrew luck Is gonna be better early and then probably start to decline as he gets more comfortable as a passer so if you're thinking about playing him it's probably this year and next that you're in from that format that is probably going to be the most appealing for him as a runner. As we've seen this guy has really good hip twitch In terms of likes ability to change direction at a high speed and he. I think he's a little more reckless than he needs to be at this point but again we've seen signs of him being able to slide but overall yet this year next is probably the time to get him because he's gonna be undervalued as a rookie and then on top of that. He's going to be running more. Yup for sure okay. Let's move to zack wilson. I thought you know from what. I have read and immediately. I am farthest thing from a scalp zack. Wilson was not great. I don't think he had a lot of first. Round fell hyping twenty nine thousand but last season he goes from eleven touchdowns passes at thirty. Three touchdown passes also ran for ten touchdowns last year. What did you think of zack. Wilson in twain nineteen and. How much did your opinion change in. Twenty twenty it didn't change much at all and that opinion is he's that guy that i don't think deserves to be in the first round if we're looking purely at ability But if we're looking at fit he's a good fit for the jets in the sense that his game a lot like baker mayfield's if you ask me it's you know and a lot like baker mayfield. A lot of people saw as the next drew brees russell. Wilson brett farve. Maybe if you're looking at according to some people but to me he was pro bowl level. Jeff garcia back in the day when he was with the forty niners which kind of takes the air out of the. The balloon filled bit for a of people. But when you look exact wilson's game the issue is is that he he has a lot of frosting no cake to his game i mean the frosting to his game. Is you have these back shoulder. Throws he has the ability to run and he is a good runner he can scramble around and by time he has a decent enough arm with certain types of throws. But there's a lot underneath that that's concerning with his game that it's not concerning to the point that i think he's he can. He's likely an absolute bust in the way that i still don't understand the jordan. Love pick the drew lock. Pick seem to me was kind of a light switch player rather than a thermostat player in terms of his consistency. Like back that kid who was enabled to allow him to just use his arm and not really focus on developing the technical skills and conceptual skills and traits that he could have within him and he realized in the sec there were times he couldn't turn it on and turn it off against the top teams. And that's happened in the nfl for him Was zack wilson. What you see is a guy who could develop some more of those traits but the issues are has a front leg that locks out until the ball either sales or dies at sales when it's short it dies when it gets passed the intermediate range. He doesn't respect off coverage especially on opposite field throws so when he throws to the opposite sideline or opposite flat and he's thrown in the intermediate vertical range. There are a lot of passes. He got away with that. If you're projecting to the nfl the defenders going to be a step vaster and that broken up pass or that lucky catch. That goes through. The hands of the defender is likely to likely to be a kickoff. And you're going to see a lot. More broken passes there because he doesn't read the leverage of the situation. Well there are passes. i saw where he threw. What you'd call hospital balls you know just you know putting hanging as receive route to dry and these were throws. That didn't happen in you know in situations where you had to make a throw. It wasn't like fourth and seven. What's fifty-seven seconds. Left and down by three. This was like you know second and five in the fourth quarter up by twenty one and he's still doing this type of thing and so when you look at his game and even his accuracy. When i look at his accuracy his nose vertical in deep. Accuracy is not nearly as strong. As you think it would be Outside of those back shoulder plays and and i would allow those back shoulder plays where received to go up and get it as pinpoint accuracy because of the design of the route. I'm not just saying because he had to work for it that it's somehow not pinpoint but when i looked at those areas of his game they were more. They were below expectations for me. So when you put all that together yeah put him in the in a system where he can roll out so you have one side of the field. He can have crossing routes or over out where he has multiple windows to target a player. He can do that and but if you're asking him to to make he can read the full field but if you're asking him to actually make good decisions with the full field. He misses reads that that he shouldn't miss He target guys that he shouldn't target and a lot of it is just a misunderstanding of what he's seen in coverage Or ignoring it and not having the confidence to do it. So when i i think he can develop to be competent starter. But he's not the guy looking to insane in a dynasty league or even a redraft format this year. He's not a guy. I would be looking at a late in the late. Pick and redraft or early to pick and dynasty so with those concerns and the fact that he had some problems in in college and the fact that he really only had one. Good year in college. That goodyear I i. It came against one of the weaker schedules in college. Football in terms of defenses. That were faced by. Byu why do you think that he is considered to be and not by you. But by other people. And i always love to get your analysis on you know you. You've been talking about like the cocoon concept for years especially at the quarterback position and the way that the nfl views quarterbacks. In i mean you've been on this for you know ver a long time. Why do you think that as we you know. We zoom out. Why is he considered to be almost head and shoulders above trae lance and and and Feels and mack jones while a couple things and and i appreciate you throwing me the softball here. Because this is the juicy you wanted. I get get to talk about first. Thing is that is that when you look at. I always think that early rounds than why. I'm not a big draft. Capital equals talent guy as much as maybe some other folks are at draft. Capital is equal opportunity to mean. It's a small difference. So if you're playing fantasy it doesn't matter because you can correlate the two but as a talent evaluator it's draft Draft capitalism product also of resume bullet points that. Cya basically cover your ass for for Gm's and and personnel directors and owners. Because if you think about it it goes back to. When i first started writing about this there is a five nine. Two hundred and five on running back. Who i remember got a scholarship to florida state and then tore his acl playing pickup basketball game and they resented the scholarship and then he went on to a smaller school that up in the northeast and proceeded to lead the ncaa. In in total. Yards from scrimmage as a returner as as a receiver as a as a runner and then he tore his. Acl another acl in his other knee. Slipping on some black is walking somewhere and came back had an amazing senior bowl. Andy reid loved them drafted him and it was brian westbrook. Well when i first got into this was the first article ever wrote and fantasy. Because i saw gillibrand. I'm sitting here reading about gillibrand. Talking about brian westward two inches taller and ten pounds heavier. he'd be a top five. Pick and i kept thinking. Well why the a top five pick. Now if he's that talented. And i'm thinking and i think about my own work as someone who had to hire train recruit follow up and work with people as a manager and director and i thought well small school to injuries. You know Not the prototype in. Uh that you're looking for. And if i'm having to answer to people or have to look at kind of its failings i can understand people think from a political standpoint while i would rather fail on the florida state running back who's five eleven and two hundred twenty five pounds and runs a four had no injuries and has the production. You're looking forward big school rather than because everyone's gonna call me a complete idiot if i draft the the two hundred five undersized running back with to acl's hairs from villanova in the first round and so it's about that valuation and risk management and with quarterback in the same thing. You look exact. Wilson the stats are there So people like the production the stats. The program may not have had great competition. But it's still a big time program relative to what trae lance was working through so there's some of that there and then the other aspect of it is the nfl has been hubris to it. And it's and this is always the case with or With industries where. They're very insulated and they they don't like to accept outside help a lot so they built all their processes inside. There's some level of nepotism and some growth from starting from the bottom floor up and you have to pay your dues outweigh they. Don't think anybody outside of them. Oftentimes really gets it like. They're still a feeling like these guys. Just don't get the even if it's the even if it's getting better. They still don't see that. So what ends up happening is i think they see a guy like randy. Moss way back in the day wants randy. Moss did well. They were looking for the next randy moss once and when it comes to patrick mahomes. There are a lot of people that were like. We think he's too reckless. We didn't recognize that what he was doing was daring with a lot of logic behind it rather than reckless and when they missed on that they liked you hear it from people who who are sometimes on shows in the public and you can hear them almost as mouthpieces for what the nfl is saying which is well. He sadah year behind. Alex smith andy. Reid really helped him out and made him a better player. But the thing is is at patrick homes intrinsically had the skills that you cannot teach because they had they were developed to the point that they were already there when he got there he just had you know he was in finishing school and from what i heard from people who was at chief. Scouts were literally like using their friday sessions till watch mahomes on the scout team and just have their popcorn and laugh like all rookie year. Just laugh and have fun because they couldn't wait to see what was going to happen when they unleashed him and what happened with that. Is that a lot of teams. Felt like well. We've missed on patrick mahomes. Let's find someone who has mahomes like qualities and we can train them to because they still think somewhere inside that they can develop guy even though we've seen without a shadow of doubt the day don't develop anybody. I mean if tony guns alice. One of the top one hundred players evolved. As i was off on my second year and i was so down on myself. And he's saying this on national tv. That i had to figure out how to get better. And he said. I actually developed my own practice routine with the help of some people and made coaches work with me before and after practice every day and i had this routine to get better. I'd to learn the things i needed to do on my own. And this was an ultra mega talented athlete. Who had all this promised. I wouldn't have become the player. I did if i didn't do all this extra work. And that's not something that was initiated by coaches. They don't coach people up. They coached a scheme. And the playbook and it's all about executing that and those exercises that you see in practice for ten twenty minutes a day. That's not going to get you better. Try playing some music. Try learn in some sort of complex skill and you're gonna figure out that like ten to fifteen minutes of rehearsal time on real hard skills that these guys have to learn on their own. That's not going to get them better. And so that but the team's think that these guys will just automatically do it and that's a big question mark so when you look at this. There's a little bit of hubris or thinking that they can create the intrinsic skills and with quarterbacking. The last thing. I'll note about that is that it's like hitting the mark as a comedian or an actor or musician where the timing has to be to the speed of instinct. Whatever you've rehearsed whatever you've learned to the speed of instinct and so when mahomes sees the certain leverage point with a defender on a receiver he lets the ball go immediately brett farr for good for bad. Let the ball go immediately alex smith. He's more likely economist. Who says well i know. There's a bread londoners bread lines in every city. I know that people are cutting jobs but until we see the numbers. We can't say that it's a recession. Will i understand that you do that when you're doing academics. But football is in academics. You have to be quick. And alex smith would wait. You know an extra two to three beats when he saw that leverage point and then when he throws the ball the defenders already recovered in the nfl. And that's what happens with a lot of quarterbacks and that it's that type of skill that you can't teach you have to. You have to have that already by the time we get to the nfl but the nfl doesn't always realize that. And i think that's the big issue with wilson. Yeah and i think that leads us into the discussion about mack jones because people are sitting there and talk themselves. They're saying my god. How can you take dad bod mac. Jones's evan has referred to him over justin fields or trey lance and i do want to say for the record adam. Schefter has walked back a little bit. What he said about mack. Jones being locked to the forty niners. And if you go read my draft props article. I've talked a little bit more about that. But anyways there's a lot of smoke around mack jones going number three and people. I think evan included just just can't believe it. Where do you come down on this whole debate right now with a forty niner seemingly reportedly being very high on mac jones relative to justin feels relative to trae lance. Yeah now if it were. If it were me i'd take portray lance at number three right there in san francisco and that would be the fit. The conversation would be over if you're looking at you know just if we're going to talk about the merits of mack jones Certainly the dad bod'ed isn't it but the but the thing is is that he's and the other aspect about him. That is hard. Because when you look at quarterbacks the appeal of a guy being able to run their athletic ability their arm strength all those physical traits tend to shine a little bit more for a lot of evaluations and naturally so it would make sense at that that happens but with mac john's he the other thing about him is he's not much of a creator and so people when it comes to prospects they like creators mark. Scofield who writes with me and writes at cd wire with doug. I ice to call it. Task versus creative but mark has a snappier your term for it which is baker versus chef and so kirk cousins is like an average baker. Everything has to be set right. All the ingredients need to be there. The oven has to be the exact time. The everything has to be perfect for you to come out with the product you want whereas with the ship you can look in your cabinet and go. Well i've got a can of beans. I've got some meat over here. That's been a couple of days old. And i've got all these different things and i've got a skillet got a skill at top electric bill skillet top and my one room. Thanks and you can still make something tasty. And i think that when you look at a guy like cousins. He's a middle. He's a the average type of guy as good good weeks. bad weeks. good quarterback maybe even slightly below average. You would say that. Marcus mariota is well below average because you see moments where he just he just he just kind of has an issue where he freezes up in situations in the pocket. Where if if things don't go the way expects or if there's compound things that he has to execute he can't see a head far enough z so focused on the on the mining on the minutia that he got a mack truck coming his way and not looked up. When everyone else can see it. Tom brady is a guy. That's so good of a baker. I've often said that people don't even recognize him as a baker because they think that he's so good but he's he knows every detail to to the degree that he can say. Hey bill remember when we baked that sour dough bread and you know the oven didn't go to four hunt. He could only go to four zero five. We needed to go four hundred. So we got that drip panel. We put the cold water in there with the ice and we put it at the bottom. You know the bottom shelf and use this type of thing and it got the oven to where we wanted back in two thousand four you know. I mean he's like got that kind of mine whereas like far mahomes players like that or like you know when they're on tv. And jon gruden says. Why did you make that throw and patrick. Mahomes is because i can. You know it's just It's now the logic is there you go look at the logic and it makes total sense. 'cause he knows his ability and what he can do with with that. He any practices these things but the same rigor abakar would but the difference is that mack jones is like a slightly above average baker. So he's a little better than kirk cousins in that level and the rest is hard to project because it's easier to project that the that the chefs will learn more physical learn more conceptual skills to up their game. But the physical skills are there like fields and lance but with jones. You don't know whether the mental accurate is going to get even sharper. And i like his game. I think there are some things where he doesn't put some two and two together where it's not planned but he'll see a receiver. He'll sees a defender come up and he knows he should have a receiver academically coming from the backside across the field and won't platoon together. Then you needs to hit that receiver when something comes up. Unexpected like the the defender basic declines the coverage that he thought otherwise would have been occupied But there's so much that he does know that i think he's a safe pick But you know the the lack of upside that you can discern non conceptually just physically isn't ever going to be there so that's why the criticism is is as such. I have him as my third quarterback Now is upside is in. His upside isn't as as discernible. Like i said. But i have trey lances my number two mac jones's my three. Yeah i i mean and also i would say evan. Like when you're playing with devante. Smith and jalen waddell and john michie and i believe in two thousand nineteen he also had some reps with jerry. Jeudy and henry ruggs like for me. At least it's obviously easier to play with those guys than whatever trae lance. wherever else was planning with. I don't know if that's a donkey. Take it just makes it harder for me to evaluate guys who are playing with such great receivers when you think about where you're at bank jones. I actually going into all this. I thought that the way that to kinda struggled as a rookie after playing surrounded by all those guys plus underdogs plus jerry. Jeudy might actually work against the nfl's evaluation of mack jones like But it doesn't seem that it has released. Maybe in kyle shanahan regard but at the same time you know. I i would not rule out trae lance being that number three overall pick. I think peter schrager who has had been pretty good at mach drafting actually in his latest mock put a tray lance at number three not whereas the the hive mind right now is all over mack. Jones going number three. That's that's where the draft seemingly is going to start and it's gonna be interesting to see how so it sounds like matt and we move on to running backs after this though number one for you obviously trevor. Lawrence number two is Trae lance number. Three mac jones number four justin fields number five mitch. And you don't even necessarily have in the first round would-be. Zack wilson accurately. I don't even have zack. Wilson five. I had yeah. I have user five. Am i five. Is davis mills. I think davis million lights. Yeah two three years. Cinnabar like to me. I'd like to see trae lance in san francisco. I'd like to see well justin fields. I think isn't far from mack. Jones air essentially tied but mills was just slightly higher and depends on your style of what you want and then when it comes to mills i'd like seem atlanta behind matt ryan gave them a couple years and nc. What you have there and if it doesn't if you don't like the growth after this year than you can pick next year you know but you still have time with with ryan you. You're aware that the jets fans are going to come after you after this podcast and they're going to be really all over you. I mean i i was. I was on the badlands. Which is a which was a patriotic podcast. And i told them to do so. That was the jets broadcast. I'm and i've i've pretty much. I'm going on another one too. And and that's the thing gets like. Yeah i mean this is how it works. But it's like it you know. He's the greatest high enough for him to be a starter. It's a good fit for new york. But yeah for me. Number two overall non up That's not where i'd wanna get him. Let me ask you real quick before we move onto running back about justin fields because you know from fantasy Guy comes out runs a four four. Obviously this is going to have fancy players salivating more than some of these pocket guys but honestly like i didn't think justin feels like a crazy runner at ohio state. He did ten rush attempts per game. Felt like maybe he could've run even more a what do you think about his rushing ability at the nfl level on a scale of of. I don't know like dak prescott to lamar jackson or something like that. Yeah i mean. I think he's somewhere in between both those guys. He's not lamar jackson level at this point in terms as a runner but he certainly closer to that easing zipcode. Where's doc is in a different city. But but i would say that when you look it at fields. He's talking to run more these first couple of years. I think he has as much upside. As any of the quarterbacks in this class has just that and the the whole progression thing. I mean listen he he makes progression rates. That's let we can put that to rest. And i think everyone who who anyone listen. If you're listening to this podcast. You listened enough people to know who who knows what they're talking about and we can put that to rest He he can go quarters without having to go past as first or second read because of the way the offense is and he'll he'll make some plays at. You're like what were you thinking. But then there's then he'll make some but it's just a consistency issue to me. It's kinda like you. Put him in the josh allen plan. Which is you know. It's not that they were both mark. Quarterbacks alan flashed some pro bowl caliber skills but then had some moments where you dislike while. If he doesn't get past this he might not Continue to play in the league. I think field is better than that though. We have some of those moments his game but like alan if you put him in a system where you were you realize that maybe year one year two if he doesn't get to that second or third read and he runs it's okay. We're not going to go crazy at you. Know over that. And we're gonna let him play his game that way and then we'll continue to build around him and figure out what works best and with the development that he can make and with alan. We saw how that worked especially with those crossing routes and speed receivers where you have multiple windows to to execute across a field rather than having to make execute timing routes breaking back to the quarterback and stuff like that that would be more difficult throws with only one window okay cool. Let's go to running back here. And i think consensus while it's not the consensus. In the betting markets there is some consensus that nausea. Harris will be the first running back off the board from what i can tell travis. Ntn has just as good of a chance. How would you compare those two guys who would you rather have on your t. between And nauseous. While i'm zone running guy for me like i would prefer that it's easier to run in the nfl You need to have a pretty darn good line to run gap on a high level around as a frequent level of level so right there. Nausea harris gets the edge They're both very good. Receivers harasses very strong being able to run routes that you wouldn't necessarily target on running backs on. But he's shown repeatedly ability to win back shoulder. Plays against even the life to patrick queen. Who's playing for the ravens right now. but he can also win routes over the middle He someone that gives you more versatility short yardage once he develops. They're a little bit. More is pass. Protection has more upside than at the end. Even though i'd say they're almost the same if at the end maybe isn't a little better because there's lapses with ariza's game as a pass protector. He drops his head and telegraphs plays and gets pushed. Polder knocked back in the back over swum over Pretty easily but all in all. He's the more promising all around back and and for me as zone runner. He gives you the power. The burst and still the field flipping ability. That you up. Yeah i think in fantasy. Having a lot of times look for runners who can be split wide who will play on every third down and honestly like maybe not to harris can also do it and maybe he will think. Ntn is at least more israelis really likely to forty eight balls in twelve games as a senior. How would you compare at yen at harris. What you've seen so far these for fantasy evan. They're totally different. I mean i think they're very very different. The the question though that we need to ask matt is cannot be that three down back in also with travis Remember matt waldman was very very critical of tevin coleman coming out of college and he's been proven right And i think that one of the reasons that matt was critical of him was because he didn't have great lateral agility And he was maybe a suspect scheme fit under kyle shanahan which opinion cash-in-hand like wouldn't give it up for you know like a decade But do you have any of the similar concerns about. Because i know that travis at ten is not is not the most laterally. Agile back Do you have any concerns. Like tevin coleman concerns about travis at ten and you think harris can play on all three downs. Okay i think those are great questions. And yeah i mean i think at tm at the end is a better prospect than seven coleman in that regard i mean coleman played outside zone at indiana. But you could see that. There's the why there's a difference in nfl and college game when you're evaluating you still have to project towards what the nfl is going to demand of him in that type of steam. When you look at at the end. I think he improved his own game this year. I think he made wiser decisions overall. He still has some times where he tries to bounce things outside. And it's more likely that a player with his big play ability as we've seen in the past with reggie bush so many other backs. Cj spillers laurence maroney. Anybody who had great speed that they will early in their career miles sanders the recent example early in their career. They will try too hard to make a big play as a result and try and bouncer cutback rather than press deep enough into the line. At the end can do it. He may be the one most likely to backslide your one until he. He matures in that system but he's the best fit if you're going to convert him to outside zone that would be the safest conversion early But you'd like to see him in a gap heavy scheme that does some outside zone nausea harris. I think he can be a three down back. Especially if you're gonna to use them in a system where there's more screens more You know wide routes things like that you might you can split him and i think that he can win in that back shoulder game because it wasn't like he did that once he did it at numerous times And because he can work the middle of the field. Well you know to me. It's more of like how you might use kareem hunt. And i think that he can do some of that. The issue is if the scheme demands him to block. A lot is that learning curve might be too steep from year one and then if as a coaching staff just writes them off after your one he has more of that boom bust said where it's like. Well we're not thrilled about where he is like. Nick chubb nick. Chubb can catch you know and we've seen the its senses of that for sure But you know if they find somebody who's a proven third-down guy or have that already. He could wind up just being a to down guy. Yeah so i think to answer your question. Adam just gonna come down to landing spot verge for these two guys in terms of their fantasy profiles in just as matt said like you know could not you hear his find himself in a situation where he gets fed. You know the rock as a receiver like steven jackson. Did i mean that would be you know. An incredible scenario or is the or is he going to himself in like a derrick henry. Nick chubb situation where he's only really playing on first and second down and so i think that's an has the leg just because he's likelier to get that opportunity it's just gonna come down to opportunity landing spot. Yep that was my feeling as well okay. There's been a lot of hype around toronto williams matt. A lot of people are saying that they're really high on onta williams. Do you agree as he. Your number three back. And how far below at the end and harris would you put your onto williams. He's my third back. And i have over at the end because i have issues with Ball security that may also be a little bit of a derailing factor. It's gotten worse every year but these are all guys within a similar tier so it's more about preference in landing spot with all these guys but williams to me. He's i think it's the safest pick Doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to have the best upside but think mark ingram and mark ingram. You know a good offense can be a top twelve fantasy. He was that way with new orleans times. He was outweigh with the ravens for a year. he has that kind of build. He has that kind of versatility And you know he's not a an amazing speedster but he can't flip the field. He can run multiple different types of schemes So really you can plug and play him. He may wind up being to down back early in his career or a committee back early on depending on where his landing spot is but he also has the the upside of being the every damn guys so you have someone that we didn't mention yet number two is out. You're saying now. I have someone that you haven't mentioned yet number one number one okay. Well that nowadays juicy. Let's get into this. You have someone we have mentioned as number one. Let's talk about whoever this guy is. Yes so you know. As evan said my processes is such that i just don't pay attention to narratives i mean i i. I've joked on some places number times. I didn't know. Lamar jackson won the heisman until six months after he did. I didn't know that. Devante smith one heisman. Don't do weeks ago. 'cause i don't watch i don't watch college football like that like i mean. Last time i called football like that you mentioned the guy. I was sitting on my. I'd be sitting in my easy chair with a cat. Curled up in one arm and then some popcorn and another and and sleeping through stephen jackson at oregon state you know put up. You know big yardage. That's the last time. I was watching football where i was following narratives like that so because i'm watching four to five or six games a day that they're different times of the year and people. I respect who are in the draft community talking about guys. I follow them on twitter. But they're on a completely different filter that i don't see like i don't look at those guys until i've done so i don't usually know what's going on. Well my top guy. The first time i talked about was on ross's show with emery emery hunt and i think they are both flabbergasted. I've trade trae sermon as my number one back and the reason i have traced his my number one back is that he is. He has incredible change of direction skill and a lot of people mistake that for being average because they think of jump cuts and speed and dynamic movement as being the flashy thing that gets people wanting to evaluate players but the best the best running backs efficiently and they understand they can be dynamic but they understand how to be efficient. Dalvin cook is unbelievably efficient. You know you look at frank gore and you know vans people hate frank gore now. Because he's the old man stealing everything from the young man's game. But you know. I i did a you go to the mat while matar's p or matt walmart dot com and look up. What would frank or do. And that's there's a tape. Where i show of anthony mcfarland. Where basically he makes a play where he loses three yards. Because like kenyan drake. Or kevin coleman many guys behind him his his movement was way too dynamic for the situation and then i say i wonder what frank gore would do and i actually looked at a game than that same week and could you not the first play. The game very same type of play design very similar type of penetration by the defense and he handled it completely different in game ten yards on the play. And what. I'm and. It was exactly what i was trying to improve as point because you look at sermon he can. He can make the dynamic cuts but he can also kind of curl around defenders without losing much speed. You can run both schemes. He catches the ball. Well it's just that he wasn't targeted a lot because he was using committees. 'cause oklahoma has tons of good running backs it wasn't like he was benched. He just was splitting time with them. Just like georgia guys split time right miami. They split time. You know clinton portis edgerrin. James know gore. Mcgahey with time you know but often you know when you look at sermon. He's also someone that breaks a lot of tackles he you know. He bounces off hits. He runs through wraps. He runs through reaches. I track all those things. I track all that data myself with the games that i would the games that i watch and he didn't even get heavy hit. Opportunities against defensive tackles and he'd and yes. Ohio state has great offensive line but so did najji harassed so. Did you vaunt williams so did a lot of backs and may all encountered defensive lineman who were hitting them at some point sermon. Didn't have that at all which also lends to the fact that this dude knows how to run and to avoid Penetration in the backfield. Well which is something that i saw. So the thing is he's not gonna be high up on boards because a lot of people look at those bullet points didn't have the awesome production at those schools because he was splitting time he add a little bit of an injury. He didn't have top speed but he does have top skill in terms of his twenty shuttle and his three cone. Drill are very strong if you look at our ras score it's actually in the top ten percent of running backs over several years of like over twenty two hundred players. I believe that can platt looks at on twitter. You can see that. And it's funny. When i've mentioned him after shows i've had some people say i talked to a couple of scouts or i've had some scouts. He now me and say that to say here's a lot of conversation about trade sermon is the guy who might end up being the best back in this draft in two to three years So you know that. Take it for what it's worth. I had nick chubb over saquon barkley little bit. I'd marshawn lynch over. Adrian peterson i love. Adrian peterson and saquon barkley. So sometimes at work then again. I said the keen butler is a top wide receiver. So we all have our mrs and go from there. Matt sorta sorta greg cosell josh shores. Greg greg attitude attitude is that's okay so there you go so i i know that one of your your specialty skills to like finding. I don't know some random. Small school are be that nobody's ever heard of one of your your your ones Recently i knew was boston. Scott loved him nailed him. He's had a very successful career. So far as an undrafted free agent in the list of those guys. I mean is really really long. Do you have somebody this year at the running back position that nobody's really talking about maybe comes from a small school. Your who's your. Who's your sleeper. That's a good question and this might be the year. Where i'm i'm gonna give you to an i'll i'll keep it short You know jemaine martin out of north carolina a and t if he if his Short if his Short area quickness and acceleration matches. What i saw on the field and that's always the hardest thing look at He has the skills to be an nfl. So i'm excited about him. These worth taking a look at a bigger school guy. That just seems to gotten knocked out of there. Or i'll say josh johnson is at u. l. m. is like a the freemen dight very worth looking at and then my third is a bigger school has gotten forgotten about is kyle and hill on a mississippi state Ten five fourteen runs. Power runs with quickness. Can catch the heck out of the football just got into scheme change that really kind of derailed him and then he decided to opt out but this was a guy that i think he could be a starting running back in the nfl yet for sure and i just want to note on a process thing like we talk about. Dfs like trying. I try my hardest not to read anything else until i've already finished on my work for the week and then you just become naturally concerned that way. It's not easy at times. Especially when i'm on twitter all the time and give they're talking about but like matt said i mean that's the best way to be ensured as try not to listen to a lot of stuff so you're already done with your work and then i think it's kinda useful to listen to other people but when you're doing the work i think it's better not to. I mean that's it's a great point because it's like this you if you if you have a process you don't know what the other person's processes i don't know what chris simms processes i don't know what greg cosell's processes unless they're going to show me exactly what they do and and when you look at the p. You know what my process is. Because i pretty much put everything out there that i do to the point of insanity and the reason i do that is that i. I had to learn football that way so i build on that process every year and if i make a mistake it helps me learn faster because i can pinpoint what i did wrong if i said well. Evan thought this guy was great. But i dunno evans processed. And then. i'll go along with avenue. Because i respect evans opinions but he happened to get it wrong but i don't know what his processes that i'm left like without a compass in the woods. Not known what to do exactly okay. We said it all here. I i mean we've said zack. Wilson is going to be a massive bus jets. Fans said that we've said we said that trae sermon is the next dalvin cook. We said it. We've said it all here. Matt tell the people where they can find. You can find your works Everything related to the draft. Yeah you can find me at matt. Waldman rsvp dot com. You can get the rsp. Their ten percent of that goes while ten percent up to five. Thousand dollars goes to darkness to light a charity Designed to teach people how to prevent sexual abuse of children through training programs of individuals schools municipal organizations little leagues. Whatever as well as how to handle it when it unfortunately happens doesn't compound the trauma for children I've already given four thousand dollars to them this year. so they'll be more on the way hopefully soon And then you can find my youtube channel while p film room. Five hundred seventy videos some guests you know some including pro guests Jamaal williams has been on my show on pre-draft. We did some work with him which was fun because he asked he asked for tape. And i said. I wanna see the difficult game. That's watch tough game with you. That wasn't all that good. But we you know we'll do stuff like that have a good time And then there's matt waldman speak cast where i do scout talk with russ landy. Who's the head of scouting for the montreal. Alouette as well as much show with mark scofield's a quick game looking at the. Nfl occasionally sell the podcast without us. Well of course you can find me a football gas. of course. okay. Thanks for being here. We learned the time. We'll be back. As i said later in the week to talk waters tight ends with renner than will also be talking some landing spots once we have these guys landing spots and that's where it gets really interesting for us fantasy obvious. I know matt's work is almost done here with talent. Values from the landing spot stuff is fascinating because as we know where these how these guys fit and where they land make a huge difference in their nfl career for sure. I'm sure it's frustrating to you. Matt when somebody really liked lands in like a situation. You don't like you know what i mean. Sure sure and that's what i do with. Rsp post draft do. Because i do cheat sheets. And i i give you. You know mock drafts and give you. Adp versus my rankings. And that's always fun but it is tough when you got while we might be a few years at this at best that guy exactly all right. Four evan for matt for producer luke. I am at him. Good luck everybody news.

trevor lawrence nfl matt waldman mack jones trae lance lawrence greg rosenthal matt greg football andrew luck justin fields baker mayfield zack wilson mac jones evan patrick mahomes Levitin tiahrt Evan silva
Episode 012 - Interview With Crystal Waltman

Relationships & Revenue

38:26 min | 9 months ago

Episode 012 - Interview With Crystal Waltman

"Good Morning I'm crystal and you are listening to relationships and revenue with John Human. This is relationships in revenue. The show were real answers come real discussions about what holds men back in their relationships at home and work. A better bottom line at work means improving life at home. This show is all about helping you become a better entrepreneur and a better man. Welcome back to the relationships and Revenue Show I am your host John. Ulan. So happy that you decided to join us today. I am thrilled to have as my guest crystal, Waldman Crystal. How are you today and Canton I'm glad to hear that will folks besides having an awesome interview with crystal takes. She has some fabulous things to share with us. We also have a book that she has just come out with called quitting to win now I realize if you're listening to this, you can hear the book shaking, but you can't see it. That's okay. What that means is you need to buy a copy of her book and we'll be sure to include a link in the show notes for you. But her new book is called quitting to win a proven planned to let go bad habits learn to feel and love. Yourself. So before I get too deep into asking crystal questions just give you a little bit of background about her. So Crystal is a speaker. Coach. Author obviously since I mentioned her book. She's also was part of a national softball championship team when she was in college. She is also a trainer and a nutritionist, but she has two other titles that I believe. She probably holds most dear in those are wife. Emma. What are your thoughts on that crystal? Yes they're all important. They are they are. So, now that I've told everybody a little bit about you and kind of where you are right now. Take us back a little bit as far back as you want to go and just kind of fill in some gaps for us. How did you get to where you are now? Yeah. Okay. So, I started playing competitively from the age of ten to twenty and it was trained hard were card play all the time you could always find me in the dirt of some on some softball field and I just love the sport as young as a youngster I was always wanted to play throw me the ball I, WanNa hit I WANNA be up there So. Fast forward to college. My best friend and I she also went to a different state college and She went on a full ride scholarship and we were home on Christmas break and she committed suicide. So that kind of rocked my world in the softball world and emotionally I just wasn't prepared for it. I stopped playing after that and where I'm at today is really to bring awareness to mental illness Zamin from the pain and turning my pain into purpose. and. Then that pain turned into alcoholism because if I was happy I would drink I was sad I would drink as soon as I became uncomfortable I would start to feel something. I would want to take the edge off so and the culture that I grew up in with the athletes at College. It was just so acceptable we would play hard train hard drink card celebrate. You know have a weakened blackouts and I was just caught in that cycle and then fast forward to having a kid. Not a good look or mom, and it's illegal and Leah, you know I'm just. I don't know why God gave me a second chance. You know that I didn't kill myself or kill somebody else but I made it to the age of forty and I was like you know I surrendered before that I made it to forty sober. And now. I just feel a calling to carry the message of hope to all those who still suffer from emotional pain whether it be any kind of addiction whether it be alcohol. Depression anxiety you know you never really know what somebody's going through and. What it looks like on the outside is not what's going on the inside Oh absolutely in fact. I think we are as a people were so adept at wearing masks that we just forget that we do it all the time I kind of view that the same way that I do social media that many times. What we see in people's feeds on social media are the masks that they're wearing their or they're only showing the best highlights of what's going on rather than the total picture yet it's cure it's their version. You know they're cure eating their own life through snap snapshots. Oh absolutely and mean, let's be honest. I. Mean Nobody is happy and excited as an fulfilled as what they're showing on social media buddy is yeah. So I have found that leading with my defects I'm creating. More authentic relationships and it wasn't until the step program and I went through recovery myself that I learned the tools of how to do that. I just never develop emotional tools of how to take spiritual inventory. So for many years I trained people in the gym and. taught them how to eat and how to work out in how to show up on stayed with the low body fat. But there was always at something missing and that's the spiritual side of it. So now that is my calling, just carry the message about that and how do you take emotional inventory? It it's a a lot of people know how to Balance Their checkbooks and you know take inventory of their pnl's of their business. But how do you take it emotionally in within your relationships and that's what you're bringing light to. Absolutely you know through to the things that we talk about often on this show, our emotional intelligence and relational intelligence which I putting a plug in here I am not getting paid for this people's I don't think I. Am there's a fabulous book that came out this year it's called relational intelligence, and so I'll put a link to that in the show notes eight is. Probably, the best book I've I've read outside of crystals in twenty twenty. Thank you so. Because even though my story isn't the same as your story crystal, I saw myself in parts of your story. And my guess is that most people who read your story or hear it when you do a speaking engagement, they can find a way to themselves in your story. That's yeah. They're like I never knew we had so much comment or I could relate with this or that and. You know the thing is that you just you're not alone you know in this journey of life and people feel so alone and my first instinct was to isolate if I didn't feel well, it wasn't to reach out now I am trained in program to like something runs around in my head for longer than ten minutes to pick up the phone and call my spiritual adviser or pick up the phone and call my spiritual sisters at. Three to five on speed dial all the time, and then just get Outta my head right away and You know it took me a long time. To develop those skills and if I can help teach somebody those skills at a younger age of how to be a peaceful warrior you know how to show up prepared and Not Having Zaidi ordered that social anxiety I think is what? I just hear so many people say like I need to take the edge off when they're getting ready to go somewhere like I didn't have to take the edge off I'm your life's great. You're going to see your friends. What's the big deal? But I said that to myself for so many years I would have to drink before I went out to drink. you know. So you're already different person when you show up and then you think on funnier. Intelligent people like me more and that's just not true. So you've mentioned it a couple times and so this probably a good spot to talk about it. You mentioned the term spiritual fitness. So first of all, can you just give us a definition of what that is and how what kind of a role does that play in how you are coaching other people in relationship to the other things that you do four and or with them? Yeah thanks John, for asking that because spiritual fitness like emotional intelligence, kind of a new term that new in the last ten years, and so it's just starting to pick up and people are like, well, what does that spiritual finished? She said her what is emotional intelligence? You know those two things kind of go hand in hand in just being aware of what's going on inside. But like I said, there is a proven plan a systematic way just like balancing your bank account. To go through spiritual inventory. So there's a step process and you can go through it and you can identify your feelings and your emotions you can address them. He'll and release a shame and guilt that you've been carrying or resentment and release all of that stuff. So there is a formula go through. Just like just like the bank account just like your calories I mean it in but it's just it's kind of new and a lot of people haven't heard about it but so you get a spiritual adviser in they walk you through the steps. So that's what I'm helping people do now is that a standalone kind of coaching thing you do or do or is that more partnered with other things that you do? Yes. Oh, there's plenty of. Men several different groups. You know private facebook groups and you can also join my my group on facebook quitting to win but it's those people that are all on that spiritual journey of taking inventory together and figuring out where they're at and how to deal with this so. Yes I. Do one on one and yes, I do it socially you know through platforms as well. Okay. Now is this the kind of thing spiritual fitness is this something you would bring into say a coaching relationship that you have with someone who is that onstage performer? You know the bodybuilder type person who? Help. The training part, the nutrition part would you bring that aspect into it as well? I will bring that aspect into ever anybody I'm coaching first thing because that's the foundation it's no longer the the icing on the cake it's the foundation to do this because otherwise. oftentimes, journey can be more exciting than the destination and then when you're onstage holding the trophy or accomplishing whatever weight you wanted to be or looking a certain way, then you feel empty stone, you're like, Oh, I thought if I, if you know if I achieve this, I would would feel so much better. So why are those feelings cleaning? So if you don't have that foundation of the spiritual fitness and your wise aren't right in your purpose isn't right. So I feel that yes that's the foundation of all my coaching. And people know that going into it. Yes that you approach it from that aspect. So has that had. A negative impact meaning? Have there been people who found out that part of your process. It's like you know I'm not ready to. That's for me. I'm not ready to look at myself via inside. I rather just look at the Mir yes, and I and I would then refer them out to a different type of coach. Yeah. That is just all about the win and not about the the health. Right because you can win it's still not be healthy or. A goal in not be healthy and and I did that many times and I and I see people do it and it's a you know it's it's a crash and burn result. Totally Oh my God. Oh Yeah. A Lot. Not Everybody's ready to look at their stuff. No. Yeah. Yeah. Ah Journeys a very interesting thing and it's it's different for everybody and so just very briefly I've shared a little bit on this show about mine My faith journey really started when I was fourteen my faith in become my own until I was sixteen but anybody who's been. On any sort of path toward. Spiritual. Health. We'll have times that they struggle in that area, and so it's not like it's fixed once for all once you think you have it figured out it's. Struggling as part of the process and that doesn't make it a bad thing it actually if you allow it to. It helped solidify. In the things that you believe in the direction that you're headed, and so I'm curious a little bit. Process like for you. So. It's just a daily reprieve, right so that day you can set your intentions you can go through the day and do the next right thing. You can try to not cause any wreckage of anybody. And you could be of service to others and they're not the end of the day you have a prayer and say you know relieve me bondage yourself did I hurt anybody do I owe amend and you try to keep every day just that one day at a time and not let things build up to you to where the euro ball of resentment. So if you if you practice this, it would be similar to. You. Know making your bed every day. Or cleaning your room like you. Just if you straight if you straighten up a little bit every day then you're not gonNA, turn into a hoarder. Okay and if you don't look at it, it will slowly higher up in the corner and you just keep not looking there. So. So it is. It is the daily thing. It's a it's a daily thing and some days are better than others. So you're basically just depositing into your motion bank account for when life does happen because even though you have those tools life is still going to happen people are going to be born they're gonNA die they're going to get divorced. You know you're going to raise kids they're going to let you down your friends are going to let you down. You know all that stuff is still going to happen. So if you're emotional bank account is solid with your toolbox. Then you're able to. Respond instead, of react. And you're able to. See what your parties and ten ten seconds, ten minutes ten years like will this matter in ten minutes smatterings days suicide in years you know. So there's kind of an exercise that you can take your thoughts through. And See. You, know is my. Response Really in line with what's happening. Excellent. All right. So let's talk a little bit about the book. So. Some of the questions I'm going to ask you've kind of answered at least part of it so. Let's asked the most obvious question why? Why write the book? So. I could not picture myself past the age of forty I'd never had a vision of. Being a mother. Passed the age of forty or or aging, and I just lived a life a very carelessly and recklessly. For many years and I basically brought me to my knees to my surrender, which brought me to recovery recovery brought me to God. And when I made it to my fortieth birthday sober. I I just felt a deep calling to carry the message. And if I can help one person with this book than it's all worth if I can. Just bring awareness to suicide or bring awareness to alcoholism or depression or anxiety like this is the face of it. You know I have all that stuff going on in here and. When I share that with people originally there it was very dismissive. Like. You don't have anything to worry about your life's great. You know because from the outside everything what's really great. And I was always a high performer. But anyways. I. So that's why I wrote the book I wrote the book to release all the shame and guilt pretty much like out myself and do inventory. because. You're like, how can you do spiritual inventory so Dealing with all that stuff in the past and First. Forgiving Yourself. So. Important. Then, I know we talked a lot about that. Yeah. So you have to forgive yourself. I may have to forgive others. Before, you can really move forward. In releasing the shame and guilt. So that's it carrying the message of hope. Okay. So this this idea of forgiveness that you just mentioned. Listeners. Crystalline. I had a meeting before we. Are Having this interview and one of the biggest things that she and I talked about was this whole idea of forgiveness and while crystal did mention it's important to forgive yourself. There's a lot that goes into that and forgiving yourself is not a one time thing is a continually forgiving yourself over and over again for your screw ups no matter what level you think their ads. It's about forgiving yourself because if you can't do that, there's no way in the world you can forgive somebody else for something they've done. But I will also, and this is really important. When you start to understand what forgiveness is, I mean you really feel it deep down inside of you. It makes it so much easier to forgive other people. I can I can just tell you especially after my divorce and having to work through forgiveness issues related to that my ability to be able to forgive people now for things that they do. Tend to the millionth power. I mean so much better than I used to be doing that and I'm sure Chris'll you're the same way? Yeah Hi to forgive myself I before moving on to anybody else because. Otherwise you stay sick I mean you are only sick as your secrets and those are the lives. Were only a sick as your secrets and the lies that you tell yourself. So. Changing that narrative in your head of who you are. And how you talk to yourself. And then you know that flows to how you talk to others and treat others. It does you know and that brings up an interesting point unlikely to talk a little bit further about that. So this self talk kind of Nice. So can you give us an example of some self-talk that defeating and how to turn that into something? That's powerful yes. Not Enough. Gut I think is. Probably was on loop. You know that worm loop in your brain that keeps going over and over for many years is always that I wasn't enough. So no matter what I was doing performing not performing it was never enough. I never felt enough for myself. I didn't have that connection at spiritual connection so I wasn't walking. Mike I do now like I'm not alone. I'm a child of God. You know he's got the whole way. You only gives you. You can handle an only what you need. I always felt like that I wasn't enough and so that feeling brought up anxiety and social anxiety and therefore led to drinking to take the edge off. So the acceptance of being enough and that self talk in your head and now like a a real simple way to think of it is like don't say anything to yourself. That you wouldn't say to your best friend to your girlfriend. Would never say that the stuff that would play in my head about not being thin enough. That was a big one you know just with. The way issues always of growing up and. Just never been enough you know only if I was thinner, then my backward and hurt only five was thinner than I would you know so? Not Enough and so that the the simple answer to that John is, yeah, don't say anything to yourself that you wouldn't say to your best friends. Okay. All right. Now as the listeners and you know crystal, the title of this show is relationships in revenue, and so I'm gonNA spend a little bit of time talking about relationships. So for you. What is it like what a relationships like at home in what impacted those have? On your work. So Ben On this sobriety journey for about five years now. And the first year is all about working on myself before I can know bingo reestablished relationships with with others. my husband. You know he's a provider and not emotionally supportive and I was looking to him to provide that more emotional support and what I was taught in program was to. Surround myself with females and get your emotional support from females stopped trying to you know get. Blood from Iraq if you will. Stop trying to get it where it's not available. So I've created wonderful relationships with women in the last five years and growing up I never had that even though I was traveled in a pack of eighteen girls in a coach my whole life. Is Relationships were like a a love hate Tyson. He made competition. Sure. You know we all had the same goal but I mean, we pushed in hold on each other all the time. So I didn't have those kind of solid female relationships in than. During my twenties to college years I just didn't have those kind of female relationships so Accepting myself to be enough and learning program and the spiritual fitness now I fabulous female relationships. And it's like nothing like. It's like nothing I've ever experienced before. Okay so With those newfound relationships with your girlfriends as well as relationships at home. What kind of an impact is that have on your business? Yeah. So my relationship with my daughter is great because I can show up for her I can be present for her I have boundaries. Of, what we're doing what we're not doing so quick to say, yes to everything just because the Joneses are doing it, you know we we have our set of family values. Of what's important to us to not and does she know what those are? Yes. She does she's grown up program I mean she was right beside being all my meetings and she over here's all my calls in you know like this this group of women that are talking about that help raising her up as well. So yes, she she speaks. She speaks the serenity prayer. You're to know. All right. You know. Yeah, and so as far as business goes. I I. It's unbelievable. What happened I mean meeting you meet so many people carrying the message I mean it's just The Sky's the limit I have no idea what's going to wear the books GonNa take me or where speaking is GonNa take coaching as but for everybody that comes into my life. Is. It's priceless. You know and before I wasn't reaching anybody. So, now I really value relationships over. Staying in a safe bubble you know like I WANNA go out there and uncomfortable situations I wanna go carry the message to. Shelters. Are Different part of town and you know get out of my bubble and see the world because when times are dark, that's when the light shines. It's not like it's dark over here. Don't go there because those are people who are afflicted. It's like, no, I'm drawn to that. So I can then you know show hope. Sure sure I think about. my message and the message I have to share, and this was shared with me a long long time ago. So this is not original with me at all. But. I think in terms of your message when you broadcast when you get it out there, think of people like. Moths and cockroaches to alight if if there's a dark room in their mouths and cockroaches in the room when you turn on a light, a moth is drawn to the light and a cockroach will scurry away. So when it comes to sharing your message. When you flip on that light sharing the message, the Moss are people who are drawn to your message. The cockroaches were people who aren't drawn to it don't waste your time with them right? And that took me a long time in business to learn. And that is not everyone's going to be drawn to you or what you provide, and that's okay. It's okay to have nos because the nose set you up for the right? Yes. That's right. Yeah. That is right and. Oh Yeah. Everybody is not attracted to the message, but that's okay. I know in program we say. It's not for people who need it is for people that wanted it. It's for people who want what you have in that they can see something in you and they're like, I want that there's plenty of people that need it right that are living in that are living in the life of chaos and that driving spin spin chaos no matter what the situation soon, not for the people that need it for the people that want it and it's Like when somebody's like handing? Oh, my so and so my friend needs a read this my friend you know my friend. Yeah. It's like well, yeah they probably need it but they're just not there yet. You know they they don't know what they don't know. Oh, absolutely. Everybody's bottom is different. Totally. All right so What kind of impact or difference to you make in working with your clients So if someone is a potential client and they say, what can I expect from you? What kind of a difference can you make for me? Yeah so I started I'm starting this course called eating to win. It's a spin off of the book and the way that I came up with the course or how I came about the foundation of the several years ago. was. Basic How am I to give my daughter an eating disorder Right. With all that stuff that has played in my head from the way, my mom raised me and I was a bully drinker. You know I would drink. And throw up and drinking and I. I rather drink my calories than eat my calories. Okay. So I had that eating thing going on in my head of. Always had a lot of food noise in my head. You know. So and I've tried every diet, but in an unstaged and won. Several different formulas of getting there right So that's how this course came about. It's had to give my daughter and eating disorder. Basically, that's the foundation of my purpose. It's basically goes back to. Eat God made food. Okay. Would I be? What does that mean? Yeah. So if you can identify it and there's no label on it. Then that's a good choice. So it's simple as that you know an apples better than a bag of chips. Yogurt would be better than ice. Cream. You, know nuts are better than candy. Kinda like eat this not that and when you feel yourself up with God made food. You're not hungry. You know it it fully satiate satiate your stomach. It sugars the right things in your stomach that says I'm full when you eat the right food because you have high water content like the water thing where people drinking so much water. The reason why you need that water is because you're eating processed food if you eat real food. Then you don't have to carry your water jug around with you all the time like if you think about back in the day, it's like there were no water jugs right but they were eating real food. So the food came with the water in it. Okay So it's just the basics. You know this this evening to win course is for Middle America, it's not for athletes it's not for. People that want to get on stage. That's not my niche anymore. It's just for the everybody. How do you WANNA feel? Are you sick and tired of being sick and tired? And food can either be. The greatest medicine or the slowest poison. And I watched my Stepdad. Slowly poisoned himself and die of lifestyle choice diseases like diabetes, hypertension and heart stuff you know and. Culturally, there was a time where you know that guy with the big belly was funny and you know is on all the sitcoms and that led to, and then when he retired, he ate very rich food and wanted to drink every night you know and so the one pill at forty years old. for the diabetes then put off the other pill for high blood high blood pressure. So high blood pressure than put off diabetes than put off the Hartfield. In the next bill you know, and slowly the doctors just keep giving new pill after pill after pill you start one at forty. By the time you're sixty you're you're you could be taken like twelfth bills twice a day shooting yourself with De. So it's how to let your body heal itself. And your body is made to heal itself. I mean and the doctors are drug dealers. If you go to the doctor, they're going to give you a pill. So the basis of this course. Eating to win is an anti inflammatory lifestyle understanding that all disease starts with inflammation. So if something's often your body in your doctor says, you know you're you have high blood pressure which is totally A socially acceptable norm for men. Who are forty to fifty years old to go to the doctor and they go you have high blood pressure, take this still and you go okay and then I will win. Can I stop when you just take it forever you're just going to need that forever. Right, we're not dealing with the root symptom. Doing. With the 'cause we're dealing with symptoms and not dealing with the cards. But if you said to that Doctor Gimme ninety days, let me try this and change something and come back and get retested. Your Body can and will heal itself if you switch over to Nam Thai inflammatory diet and what that consists of is. God made food. It's really simple. It takes all that counting and measuring and everything out because you can eat as much. God made food as you want. Nice earnings so That's that's where the course came from. It comes from the loss of my Stepdad and it comes from. How to build confidence in in young women and not letting him grow up with. Eating disorder, which is so common. You know because of all of our marketing people don't really look like that. Sure. Sure. So that's called eating to win now doing another course that's coming out as well. Yes another one it's going to call breathing and moving to win, and that's stems from back talk I had spine surgery after. Playing High Competitive Sports for so many years and I broke my back and then I got L. three or four, zero five as Swan. I have a lot of metal in my back. So I have this group called back talk and I demonstrate even in the book you know like I'm a yoga instructor, a hot yoga. But I've created this modified series for people with back pain or if you have metal in your back like so I don't lift weights any marksman over five years since I've lifted weights, I don't believe that you need it. You know your body weight is all you need all you need. Everything I gave you all you need. That's it. It's just really simple grand more than eighty percent of Americans are affected by back pain at some point in their life. It's like back Vakhtang caused depression orders depression caused back pain. So this group is about people at some stage of their journey of either having back pain in overcoming it or. Not. To take pills. If you're experiencing pain what to do about it like I'm not mass the program or mask the pain. So. Yes. That one is in production. It's not out yet but the eating to one will come out first. And then the back pain will come out second to things strong. Sure. So. It's very, very likely that we're going to have some listeners. We're GONNA hear you. It's like Oh my gosh crystals the best. Not only am getting her book. I, have I have to work with I, need to know how how do people find you. So. You can find me my website at Crystal Walton Dot com it's CRI Tesol W. A., l. t. m. a. n.. Dot Com I'm you can connect with me on social media on facebook instagram at crystal clear fit So yeah my phone numbers on their email may just email me. You can join the group quitting to win the FACEBOOK GROUP And continue the conversation. Gotcha. Okay. Excellent. Excellent. So we're going to wrap up here with our final four that everyone's gotten used to now, which is Super Fun. So let's start off with number one. Why did God create crystal. To carry the message of hope. All right that's very select that carry a message of hope. Right, what are you reading or listening to right now that's helping you grow. Yeah. So glennon deal untamed. Has Really helped me grown and it shouldn't I listened to Louis how on a podcast and Kim Dolan Leto she is faith-based she has a faith based podcast so those might. My reading and women who run with wolves I mean that's something I. Go back to all the time because those stories are just fantastic. Okay. Excellent What's your favorite thing to do with your family? My daughter and I, we love being outdoors we. Hike any mountains sedona is one of our favorite places to go about right now because of Komen were home in stuck in Arizona, and so we go to the lake and. Paddleboard paddleboard get on about something water like. Excellent. And lastly, what are you most grateful for? Most, grateful for every day that I wake up and then I'm here. Instill still participating in this journey of life. All right. All right. Any parting words for our listeners today crystal. Now, just Quitting to win up for an award at the author Academy Awards. So if you want would like to vote for me, it's a global nomination it's. It's been nominated for the twenty twenty health book of the year. And at the end of the month, voting closes so. Not sure when this is gonNA air but anyways I if I make it to the top ten, then he can go to get next month. But above against a lot of authors and it was just an honor to be nominated. Let's fantastic. So listeners get out there and vote for crystal if you don't know where we can include that in the show notes as well. We'll crystal. Thank you very much for joining us today. We're so glad that you decide to spend some time with us and share a little bit about your story your. Recovery and your overcoming, and my hope is that that will give urge mint other folks to say you know what I don't have to stay where I am I don't have to be in pain physically or emotionally that there is a way to work through it and get to the other side. Yes sir. Thanks again for joining us today and we will talk to you next. By, everyone. Thanks for listening to relationships in revenue, I'd love to get your thoughts on the show. Two ways you can do that are to give us a written review and or connect with me on social media. You can find me at John Human. Thanks again for listening and remember. Passion, gets you started purpose keeps you going? Have a great day and we'll see you next time. Bye.

John Human depression Waldman Crystal facebook Leah Emma Academy Awards Arizona younger age alcoholism Joneses Iraq Crystal Walton Dot glennon
How to Get Smart About Microdosing, With Ayelet Waldman & Paul Austin (RECAST)

The Upgrade by Lifehacker

1:15:27 hr | 2 years ago

How to Get Smart About Microdosing, With Ayelet Waldman & Paul Austin (RECAST)

"Undo the upgrade is brought to you by FedEx. FedEx makes millions of deliveries around the world, but with FedEx really delivers goes beyond just packages and pallets for some it's happiness for others, growth, hope dreams or simply peace of mind, millions of packages, millions of fossil Bility's, find out more at FedEx dot com slash possibilities. Hey, upgrade listeners, it's Melissa. We're working hard on some very exciting things for the upgrade. So in the meantime, enjoy one of our favorite episodes. This is how to get smart about microdosing. We've got a lot of people talking about the potential benefits of using psychedelics to improve your everyday life. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to the upgrade the podcast from the team at Leith hacker dot com. For we help you improve your life one week at a time. I'm Melissa Kirsch editor in chief of life hacker, and I'm Alice Bradley life, hackers deputy editor. And today we're talking about microdosing microdosing is the use of relatively low doses of psychedelics like LSD and Cilla cyb and mushrooms to improve mood focus or productivity in daily life. We'll talk to, I l. at Waldman New York Times, bestselling author of the microdosing memoir a really good day. I hadn't been able to appreciate anything, beautiful new, you know, not the faces of my children, not the Dogwood, treat nothing in so long that thought was earth shattering at that moment. We'll chat with psychedelics advocate. Paul Austin, when you first learned to swim, you don't just go in the diving boy when you're five years old and jumping Deepa because that would be and we'll talk with Dr Ingmar Gorman a clinical psychologist who specializes in. Psychedelic psychotherapy and substance use treatment about the benefits and risks of microdosing certainly to be ill, advised to be driving operating heavy machinery. They say, I want to say front that we are going to be talking about microdosing today, but we are not endorsing drug use. Yes, we are not here to tell you how to microdosing and as always we advise you to consult your physician and do a ton of research before you do anything involving any sort of substance that could affect your brain in any way? Yes, exactly. Talk to your doctor so drugs. How do we feel about them? Well, I am very much a product of the Nancy Reagan generation. The just say, no generation. Sure that campaign totally worked on me. I feel like say what you will about the Reagans, Nancy, Reagan's campaign worked on me. Yeah, health class just say no after school specials. Yeah. Now back to the CBS school break special. Kind of determination, it takes to be a winner. It's not always easy, but anyone can do it by taking pride in yourself. So get high on yourself. Hold it in. Funny. Adults do liquor, even toke everybody does it. Do you really believe that. They really, you know what actually scared the living daylights out of me when I was growing up and I don't know how I saw this because it was before my time. It must have been syndicated on some channel that I was watching was the mod squad. There's an episode about like being like Santa Monica, pier and hypodermic needles and just terrified me. There are a lot of drug related things at went out on that show that I watched as a very young kid. Right? And I always thought like that, you know, that's the scary. Yeah. Alcohol seemed like thing. My parents did create these them right pod seemed okay to me because you know whatever, that's just groovy. But beyond that I was, I was scared straight. Psychedelics. Terrifying to you. Oh yeah. Are they still her his lump them in with angel dust which causes you to jump windows as we all know, are they still terrified to you? I think the idea the idea of microdosing I will admit is is interesting to me because I definitely am. I'm not the kind of person who should go on any big trip. I think I. Managed to go on trips just of my own making just from my own anxiety. We'll take me way too terrible places. I don't think a lot of any drugs help for help with that. Remember when Roger Cooper took LSD on madman. Yes. Series nineteen nineteen. The black socks. No, but I'm there. Multi multi that to me was like the fantasy of what taking could be like, yes. I like the idea that I'm going to open a door in my perception. That's been my experience with psychedelics to for that. It just feels like something's been switched on or some sort of door has been opened, and I'm able to perceive things differently so that the metaphor of a door to perception or something seems really apt to me to sit there. Parts of one's brain that aren't typically activated, and that could be activated with the use of a substance seems really interesting to me. Did you read that book about the woman who had a stroke? And yes, Jill Taylor bowl Taylor. Her book is called my stroke of insight. Yeah, it was a wonderful, wonderful book. Yes, she gave a Ted talk about it. She talks a lot about the fact that her the the left side of her brain was affected and it kind of altered her perception away that she didn't. She no longer saw herself as separate from the. Most of the universe? Yes, exactly. Moments of ecstatic bliss, yes, and because I could no longer identify the boundaries of my body, I felt enormous and expansive. I felt at one with all the energy that was and it was beautiful there. Yeah, I think that maybe psychedelics could bring you that experience without the obvious downside of having to have a stroke in order to get there. Now speak with. I l. at Waldman she's a novelist SAS whose book a really good day, how maker dosing made a mega difference in my mood, my marriage and my life documents month-long experiment with microdosing LSD. Thank you so much for being here. I l it pleasure. I mean, you guys are. You guys are terrific. Oh, thank you so much. Tell us how you started with microdosing. What took you from learning about it to starting your own protocol? Really desperation. I had worked for a long time in the area of drug policy reform, which exposed me to all sorts of different information and research about drugs and different. Not just drug policy, but sort of cutting edge research on drugs, white herd of microdosing pretty early on. I think when it first became not even popular, but just kind of bubbled up in the zeitgeist and had been curious about it for a long time. But just, you know, curious though you are about something like, oh, those crazy kids are microbes. Housing, and then I had this terrible experience with depression. I have a mood disorder, so I I know it is like to have your mood fluctuates, but this was something very different. My mood just took a nosedive and the medications that have been using for a long time and using affectively stopped working. Nothing seems to work and I was getting not just an head-on IQ, but also desperate. And I started doing something I hadn't really done before, which is having more than just suicidal idealization, but actual planning. And it was the day that I was standing in front of my medicine cabinet counting pills, kind of evaluating the contents to see what would kill me most efficiently that I thought, okay, I need to do something drastic and I decided for whatever reason that that drastic thing was going to be microdosing just to see if this thing that everybody was talking about by now would actually work. And how did you determine your dosage and schedule? I used Jim, Fatima, NHS protocol. All he's sort of the the godfather of microdosing. He didn't invent it, but he popularized it in many ways. And he suggests people use a three day protocol. The take a tenth of a typical dose or ten micrograms of LSD on day one and then nothing on day two, nothing on day three and then restart the cycle and the goal of the protocol from his point of view, and I think it it proved to be accurate in my experience. Was that the first day you experience the effects of the microdosing the second day you actually, even though there's no, it doesn't make metabolic sense why you would continue to experience an uptick in mood you do, and this may have something to do with. I don't know the stickiness of the d. molecule when it comes to neural transmitters. But you have that very positive. Second experience, which in many cases is better than the first day. And then the third day is sort of a reset. So I think fads goal for the reset is to have be able to. Jess? What were those first two days like, and that was partly what I was using it for. But also I had done some reading about the importance of arrestee to kind of reset to normal in order to avoid building up a tolerance. I'm not actually sure that that's accurate. I don't know that. That makes sense from a psychopharmacological point of view, but it it certainly didn't hurt. And how quickly did you notice an effect on ninety minutes? I mean, really ninety minutes like the day that I tried the drugs, like I said, I was pretty much an head-on ick like I couldn't experience pleasure in anything. I was actively contemplating suicide. I was doing things like googling the effects of suicide on children, which was kind of trick that I developed to keep myself from planning suicide because I would see the terrible exa. My children in that would real me back from the edge. So it was doing that. And then I took the microdots I sat down on my desk and I. I just started working and at some point I lift, I was actually sitting at a table because at that point I didn't have a desk my office, but I lifted my head and I looked at the window and there was a Dogwood tree in my yard, and it wasn't like, you know, the blossoms burst into kaleidoscopic bloom. It was simply that I looked at the window saw that the tree was in bloom and said to myself, oh, the tree look so beautiful, and I hadn't been able to appreciate anything, beautiful new, not the faces of my children, not the Dogwood treat nothing in so long that thought was earth shattering at that moment. And I took a walk and things looked beautiful and smelled beautiful. And I just felt this kind of, you know, I felt the fog lift on that very first day and it wasn't like the entire month was blissful enjoy full. There were periods that are as more down periods that I was more up periods where I was agitated periods where I wasn't. I got into. A fight with my husband that month, but that bleakness evaporated an evaporated on the first day. So of course, the big question is, was it a placebo effect or not? Because there's no research on microdosing yet, although it starting, there's no way to know if it was my mind playing tricks on me or it was actually the effect of the LSD on my brain, but you know what? I'm not dead. So who cares. Well, and it sounds kind of like the same thing. People talk about any depressants where it's not like every day is bliss, but it's that sort of veil has been lifted your normal self has is regained that sort of how you experienced it? Yeah. I mean, it really was, and for me, it was more striking than anything else I had tried except the times that anti-depressants worked, the best for me was when I was using them as part of a protocol to treat premenstrual dysphoric disorder. So I would take in my case, it was selects a for a week before my period, and it was the same kind of instantaneous mood shift, and it works differently for PMS and PM d. than it works for typical depression, it ex hormonally rather than purely on your neuro transmitters. So that affect is the same kind of immediate and sudden lifting of depression. It's amazing. It really is amazing when that happens to you when you go from feelings, so bleak, and so kind of grim and. An in an all too familiar. You know, state of mind if you are a person with a mood disorder, and then suddenly it's gone and it's gone so quickly. It's the very fact of it lifting is also makes you happy. You know, you don't just have the lift of mood. You also have an additional lift of mood editor at your sudden lift of mood, if that makes sense. Totally. At one point fairly early in your memoir you describe a night where you lie awake really anxious about the microdosing decided that I was going to die like rot, my brain, and I was gonna have LSD induced psychosis. And how did you sort of calm yourself down? You know, I'm the kind of person who I experienced Zeidan kind of two ways. I experience it as body phenomenon. You know where my mind is racing in my heart is beating, and but I also experienced it sort of like this neurotic intellectual experience of anxiety. So early on an experience, I wasn't as adept as. I became later on in the month at at calming the sort of body manifestations of exile, which I actually got pretty good at, and I remained gotten even better, but I could calm the kind of neurotic intellectual panic. So I just went and I, I read, I probably read their well over a thousand studies of LSD and many of them are written in very arcane sort of sometimes scientific sometimes pseudoscientific knowledge. But I read all the good ones. I wear it all the legitimate ones. I read hundreds and hundreds of studies and I particularly was focused on harms associated with psychedelic drugs. I was less interested in the positive effects because my Lena, my particular brand of anxiety was more focused on, you know, am I gonna die? Am I going to go crazy? Am I gonna? You know, gain a hundred pounds, never lose it again, whatever. Whatever, like lunatic. Fears I have at the moment and what I found out about LSD was so contrary to everything I thought. I knew about it. I had all these biases against the drug just from, you know what I heard in the culture with the research shows and you know people whenever I said this people sort of stunned by it LSD is a very safe drug when you compare it to all other, not just psychotropic drugs, but other drugs period. You know, there's a number of figure that we use to determine the fatal dose of a drug. We call the l. d. fifty. That's the kind of half fatal dose. And so you know, drugs like Tylenol, which are toxic it relatively small quantities. They have a low l. d. fifty LSD we don't even have a reliable l. d. fifty four it because there aren't any verified, validated, LSD fatalities in the literature there. Two incidences that have been called LSD, overdose fatalities. But. The, you know, if you actually dig into them, it seems likely that they're poly drug fatalities, or you know someone, this one case, this person clearly died of exposure, but I feel comfortable saying it's impossible to overdose analysis and it certainly Basel to overdose taking a Microsoft Veliky. Right, right. You had a story in the book. I believe about somebody taking like many thousands of doses of LSD. Thousands of thousands was this group of people in San Francisco who snorted what they thought was cocaine, but it was actually LSD. So vast, vast quantities of it, and you know, bad things happen to them. They all ended up in the ICU. Some of them were comatose. I think at least one maybe more hat to be recessive sort of intimated and but within twelve days they all went home. So even those massive, massive quantities, it's not fatal. Now there's other questions. LSD psychosis is something that people have written about, and the people have studied. There seems to be if you go into a psychedelic experience with a predisposition to schizophrenia psychosis, they're at least there's research out there that says it can. It can make those conditions more severe certainly in the short term and possibly though not certainly in the long term. So you have four kids sacra. And did they know that you are doing this? They didn't know that I was doing this when I was doing it. They knew that I was experimenting with a new medication, but that was sort of typical. You know, if you have a mental illness, everybody you end up being on so many different drugs. It's a really rare crazy person who gets diagnosed given one drug, and then his happy until the day they died. I mean, most people go through vary drugs work for a little while then they stop. So my kids were used to me saying, okay, mommy's trying a new drug. So they were on the lookout for changes in behavior, but it wasn't until after that, I decided to tell them what was going on. And I told the older ones first and then I eventually told the younger one. The youngest, who's now in high starting high school. This year he was little. He was sort of horrified at the thought that people would find out that his mom had taken acid, but everybody else was in even he'd to. They were just so happy that I was feeling better. It didn't really matter to them why it's hard to have a mother with a mental illness. It is a hard road Aho for a kid and anything that makes your parent more stable makes your life a lot easier. So how did the microdosing affect your marriage? I say that it saved it, and my husband says that I'm selling short when I say that he says he was never going anywhere that whatever he signed on permanently and crazy or not crazy. He was in it for the long run, but you know, it was a grind when your partner is. Not just depressed, but sort of wracked by self loathing and your frayed to leave the house because you're free to my kill herself and that your kids might find her. It is just devastating. It's it's exhausting. It's boring. I mean, honestly, no, that's on silly, but it really is boring to be with someone who has the same issues over and over again year after year. I'm any was such a joy for him when it lifted. So you did this for a month. How did you feel when you're when you're month was up? Did the positive effects last well, in a certain way? They did. You know, the actual facts of the drugs. Those don't last. So you know, it's like any antidepressant and that way when you stop taking them the the metabolic effects vanish during the course of that month, I used the tools of my cognitive behavioral therapy in a way that I never had before. I was really able to focus on them and accept them and learn them and use them. And that has sustained. So I've had to do a much more aggressive course of cognitive behavioral therapy since that that experiment. But I definitely learned things in that month that I've been able to use since. Upgrade is brought to you by slack, the collaboration hub for work, no matter what work you do. Teamwork. Mark on slack happens in channels where information conversations are organized around projects offices and teams. And because everything you need to work on is in one place, it's faster and easier to get things done. They didn't tell us we had to do this. I wanna say it's really good. I like it. We use it all the time. I depend on it. It's my life. Slack is everything to me. We sit in an office space together and we slack each other. I'm sitting really and truly like four inches from you socking you all day long. Yeah, but it's more fun than topping, but I don't get to hear your Melissa Lewis voice and less. I listened to the upgrade, why put all my slacks and I tell. Crooning to you designed to support the way people like you. Alice naturally worked together. Slack makes collaborating with your colleagues online as easy efficient as face to face if not more. So, yeah, the more slack is used across a company, the more value it provides tools and information shared by one department become accessible across departments, helping teams work together across locations, time zones or job titles. Also, I want everybody in the world are using slack, so I don't have to explain slack whenever I'm talking about my work, like explaining slack is a little. It's a lot, you know. I mean, it does do just get on it and then we don't have to talk about it anymore with slack, the right people on your team or kept in the loop and the information they need is always fingertips. Learn more at slack dot com. With us is Paul Austin entrepreneur advocate and founder of the third wave platform dedicated to changing the way in which mainstream culture perceive psychedelic substances Paul? Thank you for being here so much. It's so what is the third wave? The third way for me is like it's it's a cultural movement. It's a push to understand how do we build the infrastructure necessary so that in ten to fifteen years win, psychedelics, become medical is more integrated into our culture. What does that look like? And how do we built that? And so the third way, technically is the third wave of psychedelics with the first wave being psychedelic us what I call for thousands of years and indigenous places across the globe. So you had this ancient brew called Soma in ancient India, which they drank and has talked about in the rig Veda. And you'll punish odds on the Gita. You have the use of kion which was used by Plato. Air Stott will in the loosen Ian mysteries. And this is the first way I o Oscar and the Amazon. All this indigenous use. The second wave then is the counterculture of the nineteen sixties. And this was really the western civilizations modern western civilizations. I massive exposure to a hallucinogenics to second Alex, and because of the way that it was introduced, it was way too overwhelming for everyone which is what led to the political backlash in Richard Nixon's war on drugs. So like it was never about science. The prohibition was never about psychedelics bad for you. It was psychedelics are very destabilizing. And because of that, there was a political movement to basically ensure that no one could have access to them. And then that leads to third wave. Now, which is, you know, there's been a renaissance second renaissance of research, so we know that MD may is incredibly effective at curing PTSD. We have researched that proves that. Suicide in which is the active ingredient in magic. Mushrooms is helpful for like end of life zyypah in depression, and that research has really formed the basis for a resurgence of interest in psychedelics. And it's no coincidence that it's coinciding with cannabis as well, cannabis legalisation and everything. So people are starting to reevaluate illicit substances. So the questions that I'm asking are, okay, if we have the medical research, if we know this is going to be integrated into therapeutic centers, the overarching objective is not only to medical is them, but also that people like you and me who just interested in curious about them can use them in a responsible manner that leads to this kind of Cadillac of self actualization and personal growth. And so we're trying to incubate that like education and dialogue and awareness about how can we utilize these substances so talk to us at microdosing, what, what's the, what's the history of out of that start? It really. Started when Elbert Hoffman. He had a an interview with high times magazine in like the mid seventies and over Hoffman is the inventor of LSD. So he basically synthesize it in a lab in Switzerland in nineteen thirty eight. Put it aside nineteen. Forty-three came back to. It was like, there's something to this took it rode his bicycle home, and that's what we know is kind of the first Selous d trip. And he had this conversation with high times magazine where he just had like a brief mention where he thought that small amounts of LSD what he saw said, we're twenty micrograms would be useful as an antidepressant or euphoria, and that was kind of the first mention of microdosing. Albert also had private conversations with people where he said that he thought microdosing could have been utilized as a way to help with like ADHD instead of like really harsh substances Ritalin or at all. And so that's kind of the first way it's ingredient in. And then really when it became more mainstream was Dr James, Fatima, n- who. Wrote the psychedelic explorer skied in two thousand twelve wrote in entire chapter about few people who had experimented with microdosing. I think it was like seven to ten people, and he just had them tell their story about what microdosing did and Tim Ferriss for workweek south musician guru, Tim Ferriss. He had Jim on his podcast in March two thousand fifteen and sense like half of Silicon Valley listened to that podcast. This is when it started to enter kind of cultural conversation around self optimisation. So gyms on the podcast. And that's when we see the first push of articles from Rolling Stone and wired vice about people in Silicon Valley utilizing microdosing and then kinda the second almost the second wave of microdosing he could say was when I let Waldman published a her book, a really good day how microdosing to make a difference in my mood marriage in my life. And I let really digs in that book into the implications of a society instructor. That's built on a war on drugs. And so that's like a really, really good narrative. And that is kind of what then led to the, I would say mainstreaming of microdosing because then you have the New York Times the Washington Post. You had shoes on the today. Show you had all these huge media outlets covering her story and bringing her up. And so then that kind of leads into what we've been doing is recently I gave number of seminars and workshops given a couple of New York Berlin and Copenhagen Portland, a number of other places, and that for me is like, now I'm trying to bring this to the people from grassroots perspective, microdosing news, one of the best ways to engage in conversation about psychedelics without totally scaring someone's pants off. So can you talk a little bit about some of the benefits of microdosing as you as you see as you've experienced it? My own personal experience with microdosing began in June two thousand fifteen. So I was living in Chiang Mai. Previous to that, and this was like the first six months that I was there trying to bootstrap my business, and I was like. I kept running into this creative resistance. I kept running into procrastination and I had I knew how powerful and profound my previous experiences with LSD had Ben. And so when I heard this Tim Ferriss podcast, Jim Fatimid, I thought microdosing sounds really interesting all the benefits of people reporting really interesting. So things like creativity, more energy, more openness in social relationships, and so I'll give this a try. And so for me, I've done it now on and off for a couple years. So like for example, microbes today, because typically if I'm doing talks interviews, it helps me with my particular and my ability to speak well in public. So I think me the biggest benefits were one flow states, which is basically like being in the zone. It's like when you kind of lose sense of time and space, this is what extreme sport athletes report. This is what writers report often times when they get in his own and you're just there and you're doing it, and it's just like there's really no. No resistance. And microdosing is one of the first things that people have been able to utilize. That helps to really like initiate flow states on demand. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is the sense of opening the sense of emotional opening emotional awareness is I'm more of an introvert, a person's I like to keep to myself. So sometimes I've difficult time relating and being vulnerable with people and microdosing for me was really helpful at opening up those channels of communication and just kind of feeling and being with the person rather than always trying to like do something active or productive with a relationship which is often not helpful when you're just trying to like engage. So why microdosing said of macro does microdosing is just like it's so much more accessible. It's very nonthreatening to the ego. So if you tell someone, oh, look at all this research that's going on about psychedelics. You know, one of their biggest things is going to be well, I'm terribly scared. Of having a bad trip that's like really, really intimidating. You talked to anyone who hasn't done psychedelics before and maybe knows something about the researchers was good, positive stories from friends. If you ask them the reason why they have tried it yet. It's because they're afraid of that kind of ego death that comes from a high doses, Alec experience. And so- microdosing is a just it's a much more accessible way to understand the impact that psychedelics could have anew. So like the metaphor that I use is like when you first learned to swim, you don't just go on the diving board when you're five years old and jumping the deep end because that would be traumatic. You'd be traumatized by that experience and said, your parents had you start out on ener to and then go in the shallow on. And then eventually when you learn to swim, you win the deepen. It's the same thing with psychedelics. We don't have an appropriate context right now for understanding how we can interact with a second experience. And so I think for a lot of people right now, the best first step is through microdosing. They noticed those benefits and then if they want, if they so choose, they educate themselves, they inform themselves a little bit more and they might then choose to have a higher dose experience. But then if they do that will be very cautious because they understand that these are tools. These are substances to be respected and not to just be kind of recreationally played with because that's then when you have these horror stories is when people just kind of take it without any context, understanding of what impact is this going to have a my consciousness. The first thing that some people are thinking right now are these drugs are illegal, right? So when you're inevitably presented with that, what do you say? Good question. I think the first thing I say is that it's important that we have mature conversations about the facts that we know about these substances bit by bit. And I think one of the downsides of the way that we've come to understand also. Substances by using the term drugs. So when you hear the word drug, you probably think of something that's highly addictive, something that can lead to death in Texas city. So for example, like the opioid crisis right now. So when a lot of people here psychedelics, they, they attach psychedelics to things like cocaine and heroin, and these other really dangerous substances go ask Alice. Yep, yeah, yeah. That is the case Dino the the book go, ask our God telling us, there's. Actually, this Alice about me me, no, it's a kind of a cautionary tale diary. Putting this in scare quotes written by a supposedly teenage girl named Alice, I guess. No, no, she's not named Alice. She isn't. It's just reference to the Jefferson starship song. Mix, you. One year roommates. I'm one's mother. Don't anything. Alaska. When she stand tall. She, you know, experimented PA, which of course leads to like stronger drugs treselle D. And British interest in flashbacks washes babysitting and like, dies tragically, her her diaries found and published for the greater good. But it was written by, you know, I think romance novelist, conservative librarian who serve you have very, it was clearly a conservative agenda being promoted in this book that was in the seventies and eighties or the eighties seventies and eighties scared the pants off of like every everybody. Famously she goes to a party and they play a game called button button who's got the button? Where is this something that you've heard of this? Everybody gets like a glass of coke or something, and somebody's is it's like Russian roulette with LSD. Yeah, yeah. That make sense like, so somebody's drink is laced with LSD, and then they're gonna go bananas and maybe become homicidal or suicidal, right? It's terrible. Yes, but this is the legacy, right? This is the legacy of psychedelics, and this is sort of the backlash, and this is what you're dealing with your your dealing with Alaska baggage. Dealing with go, ask Alice. Exactly. It's this. It's the baggage that has existed from all this misinformation and propaganda that's been discussed around psychedelics, which has no basis and scientific fact. And so really when we're looking at these substances when someone, hey says, hey, are these are legal, we say, well, I understand that look, first of all, we have usually what I talk about. It's the research. We have clinical research institutions like NYU, Johns Hopkins, UCLA a few others that show that psychedelics effective at treating depression, curing PTSD, helping alleviate addiction, like a number of other things. So I, we have this research and then I usually will tied into cannabis well, cannabis. Also legal, which is why like what's going on with Kennedy's right now is so good for second oaks because if you say, well, cannabis's elicit to and then ago. Well, in some states, it is in some states. It's not so what this is helping people to do. It's helping to people to think outside of the normative structure of our government's laws, and you can make reduce cannabis as well as at, right? Yeah. So that's definitely also becoming a big thing. I think it really kicked off with psychedelics. And then because of that, people were like, well, I could just do this with weed as well, but it's obviously much easier with cannabis because you can just go to Colorado or California, and you can buy little edibles and then take them and help helping like exile and creativity. And they also just did a study on mice that shows that it helps with cognitive decline with older mice. So they think that microdosing cannabis could help with cognitive decline with people in their fifties and sixties. 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So you never have to shop around to find your lenses at the best price. While this isn't a replacement for your periodic full. I health exam. The vision test is only twenty dollars. Compare that with an appointment without insurance could cost up to two hundred dollars. At least they're contact lens. Prices are unbeatable standard shipping is free and best of all their offering a promotion to our listeners that twenty dollars off your contacts at simple contacts dot com. Slash upgrade or enter code upgrade at checkout. I was my Ascott. Look by incredible. That's promo code upgrade or simple contacts dot com. Slash upgrade for twenty dollars off your contacts. How can we be sure that we're using these substances safely if they're not regulated, and when it's possible to just buy off of the street, not know what their laced with what the effects can be. So that's I think where like harm reduction comes right. And I think particular to this audience which is more in the United States. That question gets quite tricky because substances like LSD are often passed off as other things as research chemicals that are in fact dangerous and that can kill you. So there was a recent story. About there is a music festival in California where they had a coroner say that someone died Abella talk city, and all of us know that that's impossible turns out she'd actually consume something called twenty five. I m b o m e which is a research chemical, which is like LSD but is actually toxic. So this is like it's really important that people test the drugs tests their substances. So I think that's number one is if you are acquiring any sort of substance, if someone is to make sure that it is the actual substance that you think it is. So like this is most common with MD where people will buy them DNA and then it'll be laced with who knows what LSD is less likely, but still really important to us. But then like something like mushrooms like side mushrooms, those are pretty feel like self explanatory. And those are also I think the safest option because LSD is a semi synthetic substance or it can be quite easy to take way too much, which is where we saw all these issues in the sixties come from with a. Plant substance like solicitation. Mushrooms do get almost the same effect an impact as LSD, but because it's a plant like you're not gonna eat like forty grams of suicide. Mushrooms, like an active dose of that is about two two and a half, three grams your body just can't stomach that much like puke it all up. So I think that also is a way to manage risk when looking at a lot of these substances. So people who are microdosing in the US in a place where these substances are not regulator or legal, how are they doing it? A lot of people. Some people are sourcing it through the dark web, but that is often people who are younger in their twenties thirties because they understand how to use bitcoin an understand the complexity that is the dark web. I'm at the same time that that comes with risks that comes with big risks. I think the second way that people are doing this is they're looking at a substance called one p LSD, which is an analog about Steve is nontoxic. Non addictive basically has the same effect as regular LSD, but. Because it's so new, you can order it from Canada and they will ship it to you. So a lot of people are going that route because they can just purchase it online on the regular internet. No problem. It's also legal in places like Germany. And I think that kind of brings us to the third way people are doing this is, you know, like in the Netherlands, they have grow boxes may other ways that you can acquire substances through shipping process. Also with Cilla, siphoned mushrooms, the spores of the actual mushrooms are legal in every state except California, Georgia, an Idaho. So people legally can purchase these and then it's up to them if they want to grow them in their own home or not. And I think the last way and I think the most, the most sustainable way in terms of this is building community. And so this is a big part of what we're trying to do as well as trying to incubate in person, relationships in communities by getting above the ground psychedelic societies up and going. So there's a Brooklyn psychedelic society. I start. Pid one of my hometown of Grand Rapids, we started them in DC Austin there in San Francisco l. a. everywhere, really a lot of major cities. And that's a great place where we have the freedom of speech to open. They talk about these substances and then you also can go in and you can meet other people who are interested in psychedelics. And so you can talk to them and ask them questions and through those organic relationships that are formed, then eventually some substance might come someone's way. So talk about the words sub perceptual are sub therapeutic too. What are these words mean? So my understanding of like microdosing microdosing protocol has like a consistent amount. It's a very low dose. It might be sub perceptible or you might feel this little glow, right? Like things tastes a little bit better. You have a little bit more energy. You're a little bit more likely to smile. It's perceptible but just slightly perceptible. And I think that for me is the more important thing. Rather than getting hung up on the turn sub perceptible because that can be emails all the time for people who are like. I don't know if the amount I'm taking his actually supper sept- or not on the thing that I say is don't worry about it. If you're taking them out and you're noticing incremental benefits over a period of time, and it's not interacting or interfering with your ability to talk to your spouse or talk to your friend or do a creative project or whatever it might be if it's not interfering than you're probably. Okay. So I think for that reason, it's like it might be slightly perceptible microdosing amount or might be sub perceptible is just up to the individual and what they want to experience with that Microsoft on that day. Because like for me, like if I wanna have more of a focused work session, like I have a project that I'm working on like I've been working on, we're launching a microdosing course actually in in the next week or two, which I'm really excited about. And so this morning I was working on some things and I took a very sub perceptible amount this morning because I want. And to be in more of like a focused heads pace. And if you take a little bit too much if it's slightly perceptible than your your attention can waiver. However, what that's really good for it's really good for the process, the brainstorming process. So like lower doses are really good for for me like on the ground stuff. Like if I just need to execute and get some things done, it's good for that slightly higher amounts like slightly perceptible. So we're looking at fifteen micrograms twenty twenty five. I I love to take those on like weekends and go for long hikes with like a notebook or go to a cafe, the notebook because then I start to envision what's the infrastructure that I want to build and slightly perceptible amounts of LSD helped me with that envisioning and brainstorming process because there's more connection in the brain that level. So you said that in order to make her dose, you don't just take a small one day. It's a cumulative thing of time. So how did your taking a small dose today fit into a larger. Protocol on people who are microdosing often do so with a specific purpose or intention. So for example, a lot of the people who are getting into microdosing are doing so for a clinical depression, and so they'll go through microdosing regimen and they'll journal throughout that period to understand the changes in which they're seen. So I did that when I first started microdosing and I did that for about seven months from June two thousand fifteen to January two thousand sixteen why was consistently microdosing twice a week with a protocol to understand, okay, wa- what's the trajectory of changes that I'm seeing with the one that I did today? It's just more like if I'm doing a lot of extroverted things a lot of speaking than I will Micra does just to help again with that articulation. But in terms of like doing today, it didn't fit into a larger context or narrative largely because I just have so much experience with this that I have an intuitive sense of what is about the right amount to take for the situation that I meant. But I think whenever someone is getting into something new. Like I did when I was doing it for seven months structure helps, which is why I think it's good to have that intention that objective why you get into microdosing and then kind of understanding the changes that you're seeing as a result of like a microdosing protocol. I'm gonna ask a dumb question because I just want to be able to picture microdosing LSD. Are we talking about like you with a bottle and a dropper and like three drops instead of five today? Like are we talking about like window pane acid and like like a blotter paper situation, like what is look like? Sort of on this more clinical level than what we're thinking about when we think about the counterculture, most people who are acquire analysis will do so either on blotter paper or like liquid, like like you mentioned because he is a liquid. And so when it's late on blotter paper, that's just laying the liquid on the blotter paper. But most people purchase it on blotter. So like when I first started microdosing in June two thousand fifteen, I would just take little nail scissors. And just cut off little bits and I'd be like about a millimeter and so I'm probably going to have about fifteen Mike's some days. It was too much so I couldn't really work somedays. It wasn't enough. So like I really had this, but this is because I was really doing it before anyone else did. So I didn't have appropriate models. What I do now and what most people are doing now is much more scientific about it. They're much more measured about it. So basically what they'll do, they'll take the blotter paper and they'll put it in like a thing of distilled water. So it can't be regular water because regular water, the minerals will interact with the LSD in oxidise it. But if it's in distilled water, then for example, if I have like a leader of distilled water and I put a tab of LSD in that, I know that for every milliliter of distilled water, there's going to be x amount of LSD. So if I want to do fifteen micrograms than I take, you know, fifteen milliliters or whatever measures out to be. So that's a good way then to accurately measure it so that you know on a day off. I wanna do I wanna do fifteen or I wanted to twenty. You have that control and you also then understand how it impacts you because I think that something else that's important and besides everyone, everyone reacts differently to this. So like an amount that's appropriate for me is going to be different for you. Do you need a lot of money in order to participate in microdosing? No, and I think that's why so many people are becoming interested in it. It's like Alex cheap. The really cheap. I mean for microdosing. Right. So for a normal tab, you know, if you were to buy this kind of like above the ground, like one for example, it would cost you for one micros maybe like fifty cents to a dollar. And so if you're microdosing twice a week for three months, you're literally paying ten to fifteen dollars for potential medicine over the span of three month time period. Now, I don't know how that compares to pharmaceuticals because I'm never been on pharmaceuticals, but I would imagine that it is incredibly cheaper. Than a pharmaceutical thing. And of course, health insurance may cover and whatnot, but yet microdosing is like or like Tobia grow box in the Netherlands. Cost like twenty bucks. And then you can like literally grow a ton of mushrooms that you can then use only your personal cultivation news and that is gonna cost you again, like twenty bucks and maybe like eight to ten hours trying to learn how to grow mushrooms. So it's it's cheap. What are the demographics of people that are microdosing? Do you have any idea as far as like age and race? I think this is one of the challenges that were also trying to address in the psychedelic space is a lack of diversity because by and large, a lot of the people who are active involved in the second movement are white men in terms of demographics for microdosing what I'm noticing. And this is again, this is more of a generalization, but it's a lot of people in their twenties and thirties, and a lot of people in their upper fifties, sixties and seventies, and you'll get here in their people in. Their forties and fifties, but buying large because I think of the drug education programs that we had in the late seventies and the eighties nineties people in their forties and fifties, or like wait a second because they like were indoctrinated in that until they don't wanna really touch it. The co ask Alice, Jurassic, Abbas generations. Exactly. Reagan exactly. Reagan really messed us up Reagan Mr. t. Yup, did their work. So it's like they definitely did their work. And so it's like you'll get twenties and thirties, and these are the people in tech. But these are also the people who are maybe Ben taking Ritalin or Adderall since they were thirteen or fourteen. And now the recognizing coming to terms of the fact that maybe that isn't so good and they want to transition offer that or people have been an antidepressant since since they were young, they wanna transition off of that. This is the same people who are becoming interested in cannabis, and you know other other modalities of healing in a way so that they can live a better life. And I think the other kind of group of people are people in their six. Seventies those who took psychedelics during the counterculture than got serious Hata family did that whole thing. And now we're coming back to microdosing because it's a really, again, accessible way to get into some of the benefits of people experiencing. Upgrade is brought to you by travel Nevada. We don't have an episode on it, but if you've ever wanted to know how to remove your travel training wheels and take advantage to a new level. Well, a road trip to Nevada should do the trick with endless outdoor possibilities mile after mile of weird, wild and wondrous encounters and more camera hogging landscapes than you can shake selfie stick at Nevada, is the perfect destination to get away from it. All wander through hundreds of ghost, towns, unspoiled mountains, and endless valleys all with limitless opportunities for recreation. You'll find no shortage of experiences that will qualify to make your choose your own adventure, a road trip. Truly one to remember to get started planning your trip, check out. Some Goto, Nevada, temporaries complete with every trips must see, do eat and stay places by going to travel Nevada dot com. Slash roadtrips. Now we're talking with clinical psychologist Ingmar Gorman Dr. Gorman is the administrative director, the psychedelic education that continuing care program at the center for optimal living. He's also a post doctorate fellow at NYU's behavioral sciences training and drug abuse research program. Welcome Dr. Gorman thank you for having. So you specialize in psychedelic psychotherapy. Tell us a little bit about what you do and your background, their silver roles that occupy one is a psychotherapist and private practice. And then also I'm a psychologist researcher with an organization called maps, which dense for the multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies and that context, I do research with MD which sometimes falls under the category of the psychedelic. Technically, it's not a psychedelic, but it does have sort of an acute mind, altering effect if you wanna put it that way. And so the psychedelic psychotherapy is an, I should say, the way. The phrase that is being used in the research is psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. So whether that be syllabi been assisted psychotherapy or MD assisted psychotherapy. And so it's like a psychotherapy consists of in some form doing psychotherapy usually before a person gets the substance therapy occurs when the person is on the psychedelic, and then there's therapy afterwards. We generally call this the prep sessions the dosing session, and then the integration session. Now I should qualify that. I will be playing the role of a site co principal investigator on an upcoming MDM, a assisted psychotherapy trial for PTSD here in New York City. So I have not yet actually done psychedelic psychotherapy, proper meaning going through though sessions what I do and have done at the center for optimal living. Why work as a private therapist is I do cycle. Relic integration work, and so because like l. exhort you eagle, I mean for many reasons, but primarily because their legal, we do not administer psychedelics to anybody who comes to us, but there are people who use psychedelics. And so in our center, we work with people who have some sort of relationship with psychedelics. And that can include people who are interested or have had experiences with microdosing. And what brought you into that field? So Dobbin is the founder of the organization maps, and he in the nineteen eighties was involved in particular with MD, and so he was advocating for the the potential therapeutic utility of that drug. And I heard him speak at a conference, and I was moved by what he was saying and the the work that he was intending to do or was actually doing at the time which is to help evaluate the psychotherapeutic potential of MD may what. What moves you in his talk? Well, many things one is that now the research has shown that MDA for therapy for PTSD is helpful for people have treatment resistant post traumatic stress disorder. So it's a psychotherapy that can help people who are at their wit's end people who have by definition within the clinical trials tried other therapy or other medication, and that didn't quite work for them. And also I have to say that there is a kind of underdog component to it, right? Sort of a reevaluation of potentially a lost tool and that I had, maybe I have something in me that kind of likes that idea of fighting for something that face value may not have the best chance. That's what of the terrible part of the history is that even the potential to or the possibility to evaluate whether this works not was kind of off the table for few decades. And now there have been some studies. That have been done. That's right. What can you tell us something about some of the studies Lutely. So I'll speak mostly to MDA since that's where my focus is in as of today. They've been five phase two studies that have been completed generally around twenty participants. The first study included people with different forms of trauma could be sexual trauma could have been somebody who was an accident or maybe a veteran. The neat thing about that study is that I believe if I'm recalling correctly, the mean number of years that people are experiencing, the PTSD was around nineteen, and that's generally not common. Generally people who experienced PTSD recover from those symptoms within a relatively short period of time. It could vary. Sometimes it could be months. Sometimes it can be a year. Sometimes it can be several years. So this these are really severe cases, chronic cases, and there were all treatment resistant. I had mentioned before. And this particular study showed that about eighty percent of the participants fill to clinical effect, meaning that there was at least a thirty percent reduction in a measure of their symptoms in caps, which is the sort of gold measure, scale to measure PTSD symptoms. They did a long term follow up study with these participants. The follow up was on average around forty three months, and for most of the participants, those benefits were maintained. And so that means that with a relatively short treatment, we're talking about four months of psychotherapy once weekly, three sessions where person gets MDA, a person can have significant reduction. Some even no longer even met criteria for PTSD and that benefit can last on average around four years, which is tremendous. You don't usually see those kinds of changes psychiatry very often. How can you help us put into context the use of second, Alex, like LSD and. Sl Ben in the world of MD may research do. I'd love to suicide been and LSD. Those are two what are called classic loosens, whereas MD may is not in that category and so they do have different effects. So generally, PTSD research has been done with MD may nicest. It's like, oh therapy, whereas the treatment of anxiety related to the end of life is with Cilla Sivan. There's been a suicide study looking at smoking cessation. There will be studied being launched to treat alcohol use disorder with suicide been. And then there's a whole really interesting area of research that looks at mystical like experiences. And so the idea is healthy. Individuals are in these studies are treated with Sivan and an inventories given to assess whether person has a mystical experience that experience. Seems to be correlated with a number of outcomes. One study looked at changes in the domain of openness. Another study looked at individuals who had related to the end of life in terms of their symptom improvement in mood and exactly that was also highly correlated with this mystical like experience. And so one way to kind of think about these two waves of research with their MD mayor suicide is that it seems like for suicide been the mystical experiences playing a role. We don't know how important that is. We think it is important. Whereas with the NBA research, it seems like the mystical experience, at least as measured by this measure is not as important in terms of people getting better from their PTSD. That's one way you can divide to how does microsiping fit into this larger field of clinical study. All the research that I've had mentioned was done. With the oversight of the FDA the DA, the drug enforcement agency, they're above ground modern day research as of yet. And this is to my knowledge. There hasn't been in the last few decades. Really a study looking at microdosing at kind of level of research that is going on with the drug. Psycho therapies identifies a scientist. And so my perspective on this has to be that to understand whether something is having an affect or not. We need to look at it under a more controlled setting where we're measuring things as objectively as we can. Now, certainly there is value to qualitative research which is still research, but from my position I want to know. Okay. So this is what people are experiencing, but is this something as reproducible. Is this not a placebo effect is the safe? I mean, I think that's a really big question. And when we were talking about the drug assisted, psychotherapy is all of the research is very, very careful about including excluding people with certain psychopathology or certain potential haired a Bility's. So the conversation around microdosing is a very. I, I'm kind of conservative when it comes to this. So what are some of the risks of taking MD MA? So often MD may has been taken clinical context in at raves parties and conjunction with dancing, and so there's the potential or somebody to come over heated also if not properly hydrated that can be exacerbated. So the the predispositions. So particularly psychotic spectrum disorders bipolar disorder in terms of the studies exclude participants who are potential participants who have say, eating disorders, purging certain personality, pathologies excluded as well. The concern there is that those could be exacerbated by them. DNA people speak about the kind of feeling of low mood several days after using MDA. And I think we, I mean, frankly, we just don't know in terms of the research people often describe this, but sometimes people describe that as more of a sensitivity than a depression. I again, I think the way that people think about their own experience and a certain kind of expectation may also be driving that, or maybe there's something really going on. There has been some research looking at Niro toxicity in terms of the research. We have not seen any functional impairment to cognitive facilities as as tested measured in these studies as a result of our therapy protocol meaning three doses. However, if somebody is using MD may often for a long period of time, the risk for Neo Texas city seems to be there. What about the possibilities of risky behavior with taking psychedelics? Yeah. No, that's thank you for bringing that one up. Yes. So. There can be such profound alterations to persons perceptions that they may do something that is risky. I mean, certainly be ill advised to be driving operating heavy machinery as they say. But also being in an environment where there there's a potential for some sort of danger in all the research. There's there are always actually, they're always to therapists that are nearby. So it will be really ill advised to do any of this alone and with microdosing this is something obviously that is unsupervised and you're taking very small doses. So the from what I know the idea is that you're not going to experience a sort of radical change in perception that you might with a regular dose will I l St. in particular is very potent, its psychoactive the level of micrograms. And so there's a risk that a person ingests more than they had intended and we're talking about on the order of a hundred micrograms it's miniscule. And so particularly if somebody is completely naive to what a. Full dose psychedelic experiences like they go in with the intention of just doing microdosing for one reason or another. They accidentally take more than the hit attended. It will not kill them. I mean, the drug itself is not toxic on that dosage level. Really the l. fifty of these actually very high meaning that it would take a lot of that substance to actually and somebody's life. However, if somebody takes more than they had intended, suddenly they're in an experience that they may have not been anticipating prepare for or have ever had in their life. And if anybody's ever experienced a panic attack or any kind of quick alteration in their body in their mind and their motions. I mean, everybody goes through different emotions. It's powerful, right? And it can be really disoriented, disorganized disorienting. So that's something to. Be careful about with microdosing if somebody had the idea that they were going to microdosing with MD may that is something that I would somebody came to me that was something that would also warn them about in the research that has been done, you know? So we want to monitor and control for placebo effect. That's very difficult psychedelic research where MBA research and how maps has conducted dose response studies. And so there's a a low, a medium in a full dose and the low dose of of MD a, which I believe ranged from twenty five milligrams too. I think in one of our studies forty milligrams, so anecdotally are subjectively the participants who by you know, you have to keep in mind had a diagnosis of PTSD. They experienced this low dose of MD may to actually increase, will it made them feel uncomfortable? It. Heightened their ings -iety what may be happening. I don't know this for a fact, but what may be happening is that with this lower dose, the MD as having a more of an amphetamine, like effect and you have to remember the MD may the ace tents from phetamine so it isn't event Amine. It's a kind of modified amphetamine, but it is one and so they may potentially have an adverse reaction something that they don't want because it may actually increase sense of things -iety without the effects that participants in the studies described as being helpful, which is a reduction in fear, greater feelings of wellbeing, feelings, support, feeling of trust feelings with safety, right? So that's that's something that people should keep in mind, where do you see this going in the future? So the Beckley foundation in the UK is currently looking for funds to support a microdosing study looking at creativity using various. Measures of creativity and looking at different doses. And that's another born comment about microdosing which is what is a micro dose. It varies depending on the substance, but also people have different physiology matters. Probably whether you've eaten what your metabolism is, like, what they're all sorts of factors that we don't understand. And so that's also something to be considered what may work well, for one person may not work for somebody else and then maybe microdosing the ideal. The sub perceptual versus perceptual. Some people say that microdosing is about a sub perceptual dose meaning that you're not aware of the fact that you're under the influence. If microdosing is some way useful, what is the? Should it be perceptual or not? There's a lot of unknowns there. Maybe switching gears a little bit. It kind of, I guess it just interests me right that people are now wanting to do something on a more frequent basis in order to change the life. My understanding and this is true for the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. And somebody had mentioned this actually last week that if you think it's the psychedelic, you're missing the point, and I think that's very true. Like the MD may or LSD are still Sivan induce an experience that then can be recalled and be used for somebody to kind of a springboard, or I don't know what the right metaphor is, but as the foundation in terms of actually making changes in their life and you have to, you have to do that. Maybe it makes those changes a little bit easier to make right. But you're still doing something to change your life. And so with microdosing it's an interesting idea. It's sort of like something that you're taking more frequently in order to enhance your cognitive capacities, ability to be mindful. There's all these anecdotal reports, two different philosophy, I guess. We're back with Paul Austin to discuss our upgrade of the week every week. We talk about the one tiny thing we've done. That's made a big difference in our lives. Melissa, what's your upgrade this week? I'm using a chrome extension called to do tab. I'm still experimenting with it. I'm not sure it's going to be a permanent upgrade, but every time you open a new tab at brings up your to do list. And there have been extensions like this before that I've been aware of at least where you had to create an account and sign in, and I understand why you would want an account for to do so that you could access it no matter what platform you were using. But with this one, it's just for chrome at work, open a new tab. I can see what I have to do that day. It's been helpful. I'm not sure I'm going to keep it around because I don't know if I want to be greeted with a to do list every time I open in new tab, and I much prefer Google earth situation that I had before. But if you have a lot of. On your to do list. It can be helpful. So it's called to tab. That's why you're so like on the ball. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. Okay. Okay, Paul, what's your upgrade? Well, so I recently moved to New York, and so what I'm noticing this very loud here like constantly loud. So what I normally as part of my morning routine, I'll go through like a ten to fifteen minute meditation, but because of all the constant din, it's really hard to find that that peer to focus. So I have been using something called brain f. m. which does Pacific like wave links. I play it through like my Bose headphones or something. I put those on it. I meditate with those and it gets me into this really, really deep state of relaxation so that I then feel like come from a point of relaxation when I'm going out into the city and like dealing with all the chaos that is here. So is it music? It's not music. It's like they've created certain, like sounds to make your brain do certain things to deepen relaxation states, like beta an alpha and like these sorts of things call brain FM. Learned the old New York tradition of screaming out your window, everyone to shut up. Oh, no, I have. I got that one got cranky. Old person is that the vessel always work. Those hair should be in curlers needs to be wearing like house coat of some kind yells. Now. Snap front housecoat yet. Alice, what's your upgrade this week? I so every morning I wake up starving and I've been really guiding over breakfast account at what what should I make, what should I do? And I found that is taken up way too much of my mental energy. So I decided lately just to make smoothies every morning, I'm just gonna make a smoothie and it for some reason. It's been like, it's even what I make this morning kind of gross movie. It's really simplified my mornings. It sort of eliminates one decision have to make every morning. What were you eating before? Like I would make eggs. Sometimes. Sometimes I would have yogurts as I would have granola with granola, you know where you're headed, right? Where my head went, Nope. No, yes. No, not guess you won't have a bit up, but they made up by make the coffee flavored one. You might not gonna do it. All right. So I have my, I have my Neutra bullet with the with. It's like recipe book full of looking celebratory. It's very AmEx. He fell very elderly, but it's great. So you can. Make smoothie in the in your, I'm doing like twisty, thanks, that's what you do with the nutribullet and you can make your smoothie in the Cup. It's very easy and that's yeah, smoothie little grains, fruits, right protein powder yet. Sometimes sometimes yogurt is okay. That's good to add. Right? And water? Okay. Yeah, no more decisions ref, no more. No more decisions. Automate. And that's our show come find us on Twitter. You can find me at Melissa Kirsch. You can find Alice at then slippy. You can find Paul Austin at third wave is here you can find. I l at Waldman at I l w and of course you can find life hacker at life hacker, but upgrade is produced by Levi sharp, who's on Twitter at Levi sharp. Our executive director of audio is montafir, Brad Fischer, mixed the episode. Got an idea for a future episode of the upgrade or do you just want to say Hello? Email us at upgrade at life. Packer dot com or old school and leave us voice message at three, four, seven, six, eight, seven, eight one zero nine. And you can always find us on panoply NPR one anywhere else. You get your podcasts follow life pack on Facebook at Facebook dot com, slash life hacker, and you can find show notes for this and every episode of the upgrade at life. Hacker dot com. Tom slash the show.

LSD microdosing microdosing microdosing Alice Bradley cannabis depression microdosing mood disorder Nancy Reagan FedEx Ingmar Gorman Dr. Gorman Microsoft Paul Austin NYU Santa Monica Melissa Kirsch Cilla cyb Alex Waldman New York Times
Technological advancement got us into this climate mess. Can it get us out?

Marketplace Tech with Molly Wood

04:22 min | 2 years ago

Technological advancement got us into this climate mess. Can it get us out?

"This marketplace podcast is brought to you by hot cloud storage. If your company is thinking about moving data storage to the cloud, then you need think about with Sabi it's less expensive than just the maintenance on your current on premises storage. See for yourself with free unlimited storage for a month. Go to Assab dot com. Click free trial and use the offer code was Sabi. Technological advancement got us into this climate mess. Can it get us out from American public media? This is marketplace tech demystifying. The digital economy I'm Kim in for Molly would. The UN released a major climate change report last week major because it says we have to cut emissions even more than we previously thought to avoid catastrophe from global warming and with the do it more quickly. Those who doubt the idea of cutting emissions that much might point to engineering solutions, things like carbon capture to take carbon pollution out of the air and store it instead, but is new technology on its own real fix. Scott Waldman reports on climate change for Ian, a news. He says, it's important to remember. Tech got us here in the first place. The two biggest sources of pollution in this country are power plants in vehicles. So we're looking at both of those and we have technology to bring down the emissions for both of those, but they're still tremendous potential and they're still, you know, demand in the marketplace. We've also seen a tremendous increase in solar power. People putting panels on their houses in the. Last decade, and there's far more potential there, but it's not gonna happen without some sort of government subsidy. I think to shift the marketplace even more strongly. What role does the government have in kind of sparking this kind of advancement? Government has a tremendous role here. And if you look at, you know, some of the earlier places where government invested in our infrastructure or even where it's doing it. Now you can see how important that is. So if you look at the electrification of rural areas a century ago and that really created the marketplace, but the government had to be the one that actually paid for the lines to be strong all around the country for that marketplace to exist. So there's plenty of areas where the government could subsidize the actual infrastructure that would help us address climate change. And then there's also just simply going back to research and development, the battery storage that we need to be able to use to store the power created by solar panels and wind turbine. Doesn't exist at the level we needed to right now. So there's tremendous areas where you see the potential, but the matter of whether or not the political wheel is there is is an entirely different question when talking about the tack to capture carbon and store it, there is fears that too much stock is put into that kind of technology. Right? Yes, exactly. I think people are worried that the concern about focusing on carbon capture technology, for instance, is that could then spur a wave of people saying, well, we don't need to worry about commun- change because we'll be able to solve the problem ourselves by, you know something like carbon capture, but carbon capture technology right now is not at the point. It needs to be where can be used at a wide scale where we're seeing it make a major difference. It's at its infancy, and it's not really financially feasible right now, he's got Waldman from e Andy news. News if the dire predictions of the UN report are not scary enough for you. Some say, it may have pulled some punches. We may have even less time to cut emissions and prevent the worst impacts of climate change. So sleep tight, jed, Kim, and that's marketplace tech. This is a PM as a nonprofit news organization marketplace is able to do what we do every day. Thanks to funding from public radio stations, foundations, corporate underwriters, and yes, listeners like you. Thank you to all the marketplace. Investors who contributed over the last year for helping keep public service journalism going strong. We really appreciate your support.

Sabi UN Scott Waldman Ian Molly jed Kim
Gunning for the 2nd Amendment? (with Michael Waldman)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:14:59 hr | 1 year ago

Gunning for the 2nd Amendment? (with Michael Waldman)

"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm pretty ferrara. They had rights and they balanced it with security and safety. That's a pretty good principle to keep up. It's really hard to draw lasting lessons from these long ago debates that they had one hopes never to use them but one loves to possess arms the argument that the second amendment reflected not what judges and scholars had thought for two centuries that it meant which was the militias and this collective right the people who started arguing just about thirty years ago and that no no no this is individual rights. They went back in the kind of ransacked the history. That's michael waldman president of the brennan center for justice. He's the author of several books over the years that speak to where we are right now. Including a biography of the second amendment collection of presidential rhetoric and the history of voting rights in america before that he wrote speeches for president bill clinton michael and i discussed with the founders and the supreme reports say about the right to bear arms the rise of the n._r._a. Is a political force and voter fraud or lack thereof but first. Let's get to your questions. That's coming up. Stay tuned as a dad. I understand can be challenging to talk to your kids about gun violence. You want them to feel safe and you also want to make sure they understand what's going on. Recently dan rinaldo from the new york chapter of moms demand action for gun sense in america appeared podcast produced by cafes parent company some spider. The podcast is called scary. Mommy speaks and this episode in particular gives insights and how to talk to your kids and how to take action. It's an inspiring look at this urgent issue so please check out the special edition episode of scary. Mommy speaks on gun violence. Wherever you listen to podcasts just before we get to your questions. I have some news. Stay tuned going back on tour will be multiple cities. This fall including denver on on october twenty fourth would shannon watts founder moms demand action detroit on november twelfth with dana nessel the attorney general the state of michigan and in atlanta on december fourth north with my friend and former acting attorney general sally yates head to cafe dot com slash tour for tickets. That's cafe dot com slash tour preet. This is been calling from australia and this new show every week and a regular book. I have little question that is about the two of them on the report. Can that be obstruction of justice. If there's no proven underline crime judicial whiz and lindsey graham seemed to ask justice they keep up with war. Thanks for your question and calling all the way from australia. This is a question that keeps coming up and i've addressed it before before along with an milligram and it's just not correct the dershowitz and senator graham view to the senator suggesting there needs to be proven underlying crime and just not correct as we lawyers say a black letter law to the contrary which means there's a clear basis for rejecting that point of you and if you think about it it makes common sense the idea that there must be a provable provable underlying crime before you can bring an obstruction case relating to interference with the investigation of underlying crime is nonsensical that would mean then that if you're successful successful enough in obstructing the investigation into some crime. Let's murder a campaign finance violation or some other such thing to the extent. You're successful at obstructing it so the prosecutors persecutors can't charge that crime you can never be charged for obstruction either actually incentivizes people to be obstructors and to be effective obstructors if you by that point of view so it doesn't work as a matter of law because his case after case after case that virtually every prosecutor in america has brought on obstruction grounds where there was no underlying case that was able to be brought it happens all the time in common sense would say it's silly too so let's put that to rest and crew love the show. Thanks thanks very much. I'm steve. I'm calling from bloomington indiana. Everyone i know is asking why the ice rates in mississippi did not have anything to do you with the owners of the facilities. We seem to remember that there were once laws to punish employers who hired vast numbers like this and mechanisms put in place so that employers could find out if potential hires were legal or not. Please let us know what's up with all that. Thank you very much steve. Thanks for your question and milliman. I discussed this at some length and the cafe insider podcast this week and the reason that lots of people are talking about it and lots of people are asking the question about employers is because it's a good question there varies you could enforce laws and various ways you can enforce the immigration laws one article faith among people who engage in law enforcement and understand the power of deterrence this is that you go the top of the food chain not the bottom of the food chain and if there are employers who were willfully blind about hiring people without documentation or it knowingly hire people without documentation so that they can take advantage of low labour rates they can take advantage of exploitation of people who they might not have been treating well well and do all sorts of other things to increase their bottom line. The best place to look is to the employers. That's been a feature of comprehensive immigration reform that was proposed going back to when i was working in the senate in two thousand six and two thousand seven in fairness to the administration the things that i've heard coming out of the mouths of officials at the department of homeland security is that they are absolutely looking at the employers there as well in the investigation is ongoing. It is odd that you would first round up hundreds and hundreds of people who have no documentation that these poultry your plants and not simultaneously doing something with respect to holding accountable the employers now as and and i also discussed on monday there is some argument that in certain kinds of cases it may be difficult love to prove the intent of the employer you know they say we went to third party service and we were told that the potential employees were legally in the country you know when you have this kind kind of scale of undocumented workers it flies in the face of logic and reason that nobody knew anything about anything and as i said again there is something called willful blindness linus a doctrine in the law that allows you to prove intent by showing the someone basically willfully look the other way doesn't always work can work depends on the facts and circumstances of the case one of my former colleagues in the u._s. Attorney community another good point. Which is you know if they're really looking carefully at the employers. You might think about doing those charges. I so as not to tip them off now. It may also it'll be the case that some of the folks who are employed could become witnesses against the employers and could state what representations they made and what the knowledge was on the part of employers was that they didn't have documentation the united states and so maybe that's part of building the case i'm sort of in a wait and see but if you don't see any action despite the really really tough rhetoric rhetoric and talk and anti immigrant verbiage coming out of the administration at the same time that no employer adverse consequence or wherever faces accountability then you know there's a significant amount of <unk> going on and ineffective immigration enforcement and last point i would make that a lot of people are also alluding to is the fact that it seems like some trump businesses us have also been taken advantage of employees who are not lawfully in the country and although that might be something pervasive that goes on in lots of businesses around the country. It's another example of rank hypocrisy. If you're going to talk tough and you're gonna walk tough and you're going to degrade the idea of immigration and immigrants in this country not particularly from certain parts of the world then you'd better be clean in your own house too high priest man <hes>. This is buddy sign phone jim for florida. I love the show love the book regarding mr at stein since he is now deceased. I wanted to know if the attorney client privilege still exists between him and his criminal attorney perhaps of his criminal attorney yeah i i did it or is this is what i did can his attorney now on forward and say here's what definitely i've seen sense to me thank you. Thanks for the question buddy. It's good question. The answer is the attorney client. Privilege persists even in death the right to weigh the attorney client privilege rests with the client not with the attorney and you can imagine their principal jurisprudential reasons why the privileged persist because even though the client is deceased as in the case of jeffrey epstein. There are things that he might have discussed lawyer. Anybody might discuss with a lawyer that if prosecutors are others could pry from the lawyers might implicate the estate or other people associated with the deceased and so the attorney client privilege. Which is you know. The most sacrosanct privilege in many ways in the law remains but the other thing that's also true. Is that the same exceptions that apply hi in life also apply in death so there's something that people have been talking about with respect to michael cohen in months past called the crime fraud exception so their communications that were you're in pursuit of committing some crime or assisting in some crime between a person and his or her lawyer you can pierce that if you can make a proper showing in prosecutors can't compel testimony komo news about that information about those communications maybe even receive documentation of those communications under the crime fraud exception which may or may not be applicable here. We just don't know this question comes from a tweet from listener miriam hill who writes inspired by your show especially the one with bryan stevenson i was too. I'm considering getting a degree in law is a too late to do that in middle age. What advice do you have about where to go hashtag. It is never too late. People change careers midstream. Lots of people change careers from the law to something outside the law. I'm at the moment not practicing. I'm teaching writing doing these podcasts. My brother was a practicing lawyer left the practice of law. There's nothing that says you can't go from some other career into the law so if you're inspired i think the most important thing to do is go with your inspiration. There's a lot of need and continues to be maybe more now than ever before for for good lawyers and also i would dare say lawyers who have some experience outside the law who've lived life who hasn't perspective whatever your current career is. I would absolutely urge you to go. Oh i don't have any particular device about where to go. I'm partial to the law school. I went to law school. I teach at which are both in new york. <hes> go to someplace where you'll have fun but any place you think you can get a first class education and some training craft so that you can practice law away that hopefully given that your reason for this inspiration from bryan stevenson that you'll do some public interest law so i would pay attention to what kinds of clinics the law schools you're applying to have so you can begin to perfect that craft even before you leave school good luck so so as you might imagine many many questions this past week about guns about gun reform about mass shootings and about the second amendment itself for for example there was a tweet from sean dunkin who asks can we have an analysis of what happened to diminish the well regulated militia part of the second amendment to the individual a d._d. Chang writes love your show listening to you and discuss gun rights on the insider clip. My question is this is the right to own a gun more sacrosanct than the right to stay alive at school at a mall at work at a park. There's another question from listener olivier g._e. From paris not texas why can't the average citizen possess a nuclear weapon or two or fifty all questions and all very resonant and relevant this week but i'm not going to answer them. Instead listen to my interview with michael who is an expert on all these things in answers a lot of these questions and more my guest. This week is michael waldman. He was director of speechwriting for president bill clinton from nineteen ninety five to nineteen ninety nine responsible for nearly two thousand speeches including both inaugurals and four state of the union address. He's also an author of several books including a volume on presidential rhetoric. The history of the second amendment and the fight for voting rights topics that are extremely relevant haven't in two thousand nineteen. He's president of the brennan center for justice at n._y._u. School of law a nonpartisan policy institute michael is also a friend and colleague as you may know i have been working closely with michael and others at the brennan center on the national task force on the rule of law and democracy. That interview is coming up. Stay too you stay tuned to support it by bamboos one what was cool when i was in school back to the future return of the jedi joan jett and the cure now the coolest things in school or bamboos socks bombs are the most comfortable kid socks ever designed zayn with several comfort innovations that helped make them feel better than any kids socks ever made and they're colorful like bursting with color. They even have colorful colorful little beyond them. When i told my family about these great socks it turned out they already had bright colorful bombay's on their feet and since bomba's donates a pair of socks for every pair purchase you should get some for yourself too so senator kids back to school with bomba's the socks that will keep them comfy colorful and ready to take on the school all year visit bomba dot com slash preet and get twenty percents off your first purchase a._s. Dot com slash preet for twenty percent off your first. I purchase bombay dot com slash pre michael waldman. Welcome to the show great to be with you so indulge me from it in saying how pleased i am that you're on the show we go back a long ways actually and work together to this very day day on issues that are important to democracy the task force on democracy that i co chair with christie. Todd whitman is done through the brennan center for justice of what you were the president so thank you for helping to save democracy. I guess maybe i need something else on my resume. It's a fight while we're fighting and it's been great to work with you on all these things ever since i i i saw you fighting against voter suppression at the justice department no and even even before that which will come to you with a later in the talk this this myth of voter fraud where when i was working for senator schumer in the senate we did hearing through the rules committee unjust these questions number working with you and other folks on your team at the brennan center and those myths still persist so something that's been on everyone's mind a lot since the shootings in el paso and in dayton in at the gilroy garlic festival the guns. You are expert a lot of things that are often say michael. Waldman is a gentleman and a scholar but a scholar of multiple issues. You wrote a book about five years ago. Call the second amendment a biography and i wanna get into because we get a lot of questions about this and it's good to have an expert on the origin of the second amendment what the debate was like. What does it actually mean gene based on the words in it. How come to mean something different. What is the role of the n._r._a. But before we get to any of that you have often pointed to quote from lincoln that you like and i like it too. It's something that he said in debating slavery in eighteen fifty eight lincoln said public sentiment is everything with public sentiment. Nothing can fail without it. Nothing can succeed now. It seems to me that there has been for a while now public sentiment in favor of certain kinds of restrictions on guns and and common sense gun reforms that has not translated into any kind of action. What do you make a public sentiment where it is now in connection with the gun debate. You're you're right that the general broad public sentiment is strongly for commonsense gun laws of the kind that we're familiar with that have not been able to pass like expanded and universal background checks and things like that public opinion has shifted somewhat on guns and this was part of how we got this new interpretation of the second amendment. If you look twenty thirty forty years ago there was really wide public support for what we would regard as really strict gun laws and then over time that receded it sort of came along with people's general distrust of government what's happened in the last few years and really in the last two or three three years is the public is again much more open than it has been to pretty strong action on guns but the problem for those who want strong gun laws has always been the support for gun restrictions or gun. Safety restrictions is broad shallow and the n._r._a. And gun rights supporters who are a smaller and smaller segment of the population are very intense. Only three percent of americans own half the guns in the united states and the n._r._a. It claims to have a few million members. Although you know who knows what the real story is but that's way fewer than a._a._r._p. A._a._r._p. or a lot of other very powerful interest groups but it's the intensity it's the fact that they will vote you out of office if they can that has given them unusual strength. What do you think of the intensity of <unk> sentiment on the other side in the wake of parkland and actually going back to newtown win. The newtown massacre happened right. After the twenty twelve election. It came after a period reading which basically barack obama never mentioned the issue of guns and never did anything on the subject except for actually signing a law that loosened federal law a little bit democrats at that point had a muscle memory that they needed to stay away from the issue and beginning with newtown the began to be a change <hes> especially seeing the mass shootings and the terror attacks that come with it and over time. I think you can trace from from that really awful day in two thousand twelve to now considerable growing strength for support for action on guns. I really thought that the parkland students were a real breakthrough because they were a new generation of people who just aren't going to put up with the same compromises maybe that their elders did and you know just like with verne mental issues or marriage equality. Sometimes you can have kind of a when you leap generations. Suddenly the public opinion can shift so. I think there's a change and you know a lot. Democrats believed bill clinton believed that the democrats lost the house in one thousand nine hundred ninety four because they passed an assault weapons ban. It's not clear that's really true but they really believe that probably help them. It did not help and al gore a lot of people believe lost state's democrats had previously won because of the gun issue. Hillary clinton began talking about gun safety in an unapologetic way for the first time <hes> now maybe that hurt her in love. The red red counties that she unexpectedly did worse relative to trump but i think that the politics of this is shifting a lot and you can see it in the candidates and heather talking about it now so when people well are down and depressed and were after newtown because in the aftermath of that really really you know among the range of horrible tragedies unspeakable given him a young small children that were the fact that there wasn't immediate legislation passed or immediate movement to change things has gotten a lot of people down. You're not as pessimistic because you think that all these things gather force over time when we look back on this point in history twenty thirty forty years from now. Do you think it really was a shifting of the ground. I i really do think shifting of the ground. It just doesn't happen immediately me remember after newtown. They brought a bipartisan universal background. Check bill to the floor. The senate it had support of ninety percent of the public and it was defeated not because it didn't have public support or even image it had a majority in the senate republicans of the filibuster and i think they kind of have to keep at it and keep at it and you're seeing in the reaction to these shootings which seemed to have broken can through in a way harley because the one would never want to call something an everyday run of the mill mass shooting but in el paso aso you had not just a mass shooting with the same weapon of war that is used some of these other ones but very clearly a political terror attack linked linked to anti immigrant sentiment linked to white supremacy and linked to love the rhetoric from the president has really cracked through love logjam here and i i would. I bet there will be some action but it may not happen right away. It didn't happen obviously on all these other tough tough issues in american history. Can we go back about two hundred and twenty eight years to the second amendment which i believe was adopted in seventeen ninety one. Do i have that right. Yes okay all right. You didn't know there's going to be a quiz. That's the kind of bar bada us is to lose before. I had the internet. I'm told it was seventeen ninety one. Let's look at the text of the second amendment and they're going to ask you a lot of questions about the second amendment says quote a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. What did that mean at the time. It was adopted well. That's the thing is it is really hard for us to put ourselves back. In the minds of the people then let alone try to make constitutional decisions now or public policy decisions now based on our misunderstanding perhaps of what happened back then at that time the militias were really a really important part of the new country <hes> that part of amendment the first part about the well regulated militia was really important to the colonists tests and to the new revolutionary nation but they were not like anything any of us have now every white adult man from age sixteen up was required to be in the militia and was required by law to own a gun and keep it at home and bring the gun in for your military services like the minutemen at lexington concord so they had a._k._47.'s a._r. Fifteen they had young zukas and low grade nukes. No they had these muskets skits that muskets missed most of the time they were military wealth and they were hard to reload they were hard to reload and not very effective. They rusted easily <hes> and they were dangerous to own well onto us but the people thought the militias were this bulwark against tyranny. They were really really focused on the danger injure of what they call the standing army in other words an army of paid soldiers just like the redcoats and when the constitution was written it did not bar having a standing army is a lot of people want it and there was a huge controversy when it was released and when they states had to ratify the constitution and one of the big concerns that people had was this new strong central government would crush the militias of bring your weapon from home sit it is in citizen farmer soldiers and one of the purposes of the second amendment was to make sure that these militias couldn't be crushed and in fact when james madison introduced the bill of rights a number of the states had said we want bill of rights as our condition effect for for ratifying the constitution madison who was not actually four there being a bill of rights he was the guy had written the constitution wrote the federalist papers to argue for why it was okay but in order to get elected to congress congress himself in his own congressional district he had to come out for there being a bill of rights his original version of the second amendment made it very clear what its purpose was it had a conscientious sanchez objector clause it said <hes> well regulated militia the bright to keep and bear arms but if you don't want to do your military service in person you can get somebody. They also do it for you. It was clearly about this military system. So if we were to go back in a time machine people ask me so does <hes> the second amendment reflect an individual right or the militias. I was going to get there you know sort of both and neither it reflects an individual right to fulfill the duty to serve in the militia are question would mean nothing would be baffling to the founders just like their answer really is kind of baffling to us. Yes we can't really go back and draw that many lessons from it except for this it was always about public safety. There were always guns. There were lots of guns bladder lighter right to defend their home but they were gun laws all the way through at the time of the second amendment <hes> everything from it was illegal to keep a gun in boston but in in in your home a loaded gun because they tended to blow up and burn down the neighborhood in pennsylvania and other states they have a registry of guns sounds and they actually at one point recalled all the guns and the state because they needed to check and see who had their military weapons one of the things i learned about after i worked on this book which you know i regret not knowing that the time was in eighteen twenty four. I think i'm very prepared michael i i have i have the tweet excellent that you said a year and a half ago. We tweeted second amendment. Madison and jefferson voted to ban guns from the university of virginia campus eighteen twenty four too dangerous. They thought the constitution is no bar artis payne gun laws and policies. That's interesting yeah. No they think this was a massive violation of gun rights to say you couldn't bring it. Actually literally says the policies policies of the university of virginia there were eight people on the board of regents one of the others. I think with john jay it wasn't like they were ceremonially signing onto something and it says we're banning bannon guns and swords from campus presumably because people were doing you know or something like that. They didn't think that having a law like that rule like that violated did gun rights now you know there were a lot of guns and they were using guns to keep slaves from rebelling. It's not like it was some pristine time but all throughout american history gun rights and strong laws have gone hand in hand. It is true that people get it wrong when they say the second amendment is about hunting some people like certain kinds of weapons and they say they use them for hunting but the real debate going back to the founding is about public safety about turning correct. It's about public safety and about tyranny ernie was political ironically away. Military weapons were more like what they had back at the time of the second amendment then for hunting. It's just that the founders when they wrote the second amendment did not necessarily think that everybody could be their own militia and decide for themselves. What have are are or who to shoot it up. I mean they had the constitutional convention because of shays rebellion which was a rebellion in western massachusetts. It's by farmers who didn't want to pay the debts that they owed and it was pretty clear to them and then to george washington later when he was president that from now on the militias shows were organized by the government not sort of today's version of radical right activists wanna go back to this point that you raised about whether the second amendment confers an individual right or some collective right because a lot rides on that answer and if you go back to the text yes certainly it says a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state. That's there. It gets overlooked a little bit in modern times but it does say the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Is there not something in that phraseology of the people to keep and bear arms that suggests an individual right yeah i mean this was they were not only thinking that some government office somewhere would have the guns but again and we have to try to transport ourselves back into a time where there was basically a universal military draft for an entire adulthood for white men and they were required to own a gun and bring it in and that was seen as a power of the people i i did look at the way the phrase the people was used in the ratification conventions and it was doing the research for this book on the second amendment was so amazing because they wrote down or transcribed. They didn't have c. span. They didn't have tape recorders but so much of it was transcribed whether it's madison's notes from the constitutional convention or the very public debate in the ratification conventions in places like virginia when they talked about the people typically what they meant was the body politic and there's even a question a lot of the latter day gun rights advocates pickett's including justice scalia when he wrote about this say well bear arms that means carry bear means carry and that means it must be small enough to to carry around so therefore that must mean it is a pencil and they use dictionaries but it is clearly the case when you look at all the uses of the phrase phrase bear arms in the colonial and revolutionary and constitutional era what that meant was military service and it's very interesting. There are two professors from from utah law professors from utah. I believe from brigham young who were for the individual right and then they did a linguistic analysis and realize bear arms was term arm of art meaning serve in the military again. I think that we're forced to be spending this time kind of like parsing what the james madison's notes mean gene and what are the discarded letter that some guy wrote to another guy mean to figure out what our constitutional rights mean today and basically no other country in the world would dream of doing doing it that way ultimately the basic principle which was they had rights and they balanced it with security and safety. That's a pretty good principle to keep up with but it's it's really really hard to draw lasting lessons from these long ago debates that they had and you point out in the book and elsewhere some other sort of funny misrepresentations of statements statements made by important historical figures for example and i think they put this on a t shirt from time to time thomas jefferson's words to george washington in seventeen ninety six letter under thomas jefferson says one loves to possess arms one hopes never to use them but one loves to possess arms and the argument that the second the second amendment reflected not what judges and scholars had thought for two centuries that it meant which was the militias and this collective right the the people who started arguing just about thirty years ago and that no no no no this is an individual right they went back and they looked at all the history and the kind of ransacked the history. They pulled a lot of them pulled quotes out of context like people who are movie posters a bad review but you find the positive for you. Put it on the post. It's okay to do that with book. Reviews reviews book as the words or good too but <hes> there were law review articles and many of them had turned out were paid for by the n._r._a. Who were trying to move public opinion on this have quotes like that quote from thomas jefferson one love to possess arms but one hopes never to use them and it's sort of a hot hot look at that and you can see all these scholars getting very excited about this. If you look at the actual letter he was writing. George washington said remember. When i was secretary of state. I gave you that batch of letters on the controversial decision. Can i have them back. I think i'm going to get criticized for this and i wanna. I have them in reserve. One loves to possess arms though one hopes never have to use them it was it was a metaphor and they're having arguments for having letters in in his drawer roar that he wanted to use to rebut somebody who was criticizing him the quote from patrick henry. The great object is let every man be armed that was kind of the the book that was the scholarly book that they all have relied on has the title let every man be armed and the patrick patrick henry professorship at george mason. Law school is funded by the n._r._a. And you can see it on t shirts and you can see it when the supreme court eventually ruled on this was a banner in front of the supreme court saying patrick henry the great you know give me liberty or give me death. Let every man be armed but once upon a time. I guess you needed a library card at the library of congress. Look this stuff up but it's all on the internet. Now it was from the ratification convention in virginia <unk> jinya james madison's. They're defending the constitution line by line and patrick. Henry is opposing the constitution and patrick henry says what about this militia provisions. They're going to disarm. Militia and madison says no no no he makes it up on the spot says no this is both the state of virginia and the federal government have both have a duty to armed militia and patrick carey says what both of us both the federal government and the state have a duty to arm the militia. Do you know how expensive that is. Two sets of balloons two sets of vests and bullets. The great object is let every man be armed but only once so it was rather than being some cry freedom. It was a local politician complaining about wasteful spending by washington when it was actually washington itself not washington the town so you know there's a lot of everybody goes back and plucks these these founding father gotcha quotes and it's hard to not do the same thing but the history is not what the n._r._a. Says it was so. Let's summarize a couple of things. Your analysis has been then that there's nothing to indicate at the time of the debate or in the language of the amendment that it's an individual right would come to the heller decision recently later which does some of that but also based not just on your u._v._a. Fine from eighteen twenty four but also other aspects to it has always been true into the second amendment. No matter what you think of it that significant gun regulation is permitted okay and why's both are right. If you look at masses notes from the constitutional convention you look get the debate on the floor of the house of representatives where they marked up wrote the second amendment in public. If you look at the records of almost universally asleep the ratification conventions for the constitution there's not a word about the second amendment reflecting an individual right to gun ownership for hunting the or self protection or anything other than service in the militia they had guns they felt they had a right to have guns but it was always in the context of public safety and that really that dual set of values really is what happened throughout the rest of the country's history we had obviously guns they spread but there were always done rules gun laws. One of my favorites is we think the wild west and dodge city as kind of archetypal well west town and there's a photo from died city. I think it's in the eighteen seventies and it looks like a movie set. It looks like the back lot of universal studios wild west town. It's dusty mainstream saloons on either side and there's posts for the horses and then the middle is sciences. Welcome to dodge city firearms prohibited. They understood food that they were dangerous and for two centuries there were debates about gun laws but it was understood that the second amendment did not recognize some some kind of unlimited individual right to gun ownership richard nixon's chief justice that he appointed warren burger. A rock ribbed conservative said that the idea that the second amendment represented unlimited individual right to gun ownership was quote fraud on the american people so that's a long time ago does so then what happens bo through scholarship in perhaps the n._r._a. In recent decades there has been sort of shifting as you've been describing of a certain constituencies view the second amendment which kind of culminates in the heller decision. How did that come about. It's an amazingly. I think a really interesting story of how how constitutional change how legal change policy change really happens in this country because it goes back to that quote you mentioned from abraham lincoln that public sentiment is everything about forty years ago the n._r._a. And other gun rights advocates launched a constitutional campaign to change what people thought the second amendment meant the n._r._a. Has been around since right after the civil war it was originally for training marksmanship for military preparedness than it kind of became mhm known as the voice of hunters and sportsmen in an isa support all manner of gun regulations right when there was a federal law in the nineteen nineteen thirties to deal with the salt weapons of their day which were tommy guns which were used by bank robbers using that newfangled technology the getaway car and they passed a federal law the n._r._a. Testified and was asked. Can you think of any constitutional provision that might affect this and they said no. We can't think of any right. It's a long time ago long time ago and the supreme court ruled repeatedly the same way but the n._r._a. Really launched itself in a different direction and it was again. It was about politics the n._r._a. In the mid nineteen seventies the leadership of the n._r._a. Announced that it was retreating from politics and that it was moving its its headquarters from washington d._c. Whether it was a building sportsmanship training we're on the front of the building they were moving to colorado to signal retreat from politics and at their convention it was still known as the revolt in cincinnati the membership voted out this leadership and voted in a much more dogmatic much more ideological and intense leadership and they reconstituted themselves around this constitutional right and they call themselves now the oldest civil rights organization organization in the united states and if you go to the headquarters in virginia you go into the lobby and on the wall not surprisingly is the text of the second amendment except they've edited out the part about the militia they just have to dots three dots it ju just cut that part out and so they waged a long term campaign. They started with scholarships cup. Why why did that happen. People up to demonize the n._r._a. If you're a certain type of person and some people hailing arrived or another type of person someone and get to what what was going on in the heads of leadership then why launch this program and this agenda well i mean i think in terms of as a strategy you you know a lot of them really deeply believed it and understood that it was much better be fighting for constitutional right and freedom than on the terrain that the gun an issue in the wake of the kennedy assassination king's assassination had been fallen. So are you saying that their goals did not change. They just adopted new rhetorical. <unk> strategy are worthy goals different too vague. The goal became much more maximalist and much more <hes> as trump heston later president of the n._r._a. Said you know you'll primate gun. I'm from my hands when you you'll get cold dead fingers <hes> they said no gun laws that any gun law is a violation of my freedom mm-hmm individual rights and i really think it happened as part of an overall backlash. That's all big. Traditional american institutions turn way to the right whether it was the business lobbies in the chamber of commerce or you had the sagebrush rebellion at the same time out in the western states on public lands. You had a real revolt against government meant and this was part of it and became used to be that the n._r._a. Was backed by democrats and republicans. John dingle who recently died was a big again array supporter. He's a democratic congressman from michigan. The n._r._a. became a much more ideologically conservative organization and really part of a very tightly woven political operation on the right at the same time that sort of shrunk in terms of its political base it gained in political power our how does that work. It gained political power in part because it got some scouts took down some members of congress. It showed that it's voters were intense and passionate and willing to vote just on that whenever i go around speaking at this very often people ask <hes> well. Isn't this about money. Is this the campaign contributions the n._r._a. Gives or isn't even isn't this. Just the gun companies and i really don't think that's true. I may be wrong but i really think it's the intense hence passion of this shrinking but increasingly vocal minority of people the the number of people who own first of all gun crime even even as we're focused on mass shootings and the fact that we have way more guns in this country per capita than anywhere else and more gun deaths but gun crime is actually down along with all other crime. <hes> the number of people who own guns is way down. Fear people served in the military. Fewer people hunt the smaller. The rural areas are the fewer people have this traditional way of life but the fewer people who have guns have way more of them. They're like arsenals. They have many more assault weapons. Many more weapons of mass destruction affect gun ownership has become less of a tradition and more of an ideological intrical statement so then we get to the supreme court case that we've been mentioning that people talk about which was only eleven years ago i think in two thousand eight district of columbia versus heller and justice scalia wrote the majority opinion which rejected all of your reasoning and ultra scholarship about here the debate on the second amendment and basically said that it does confer an individual right well. He did reject it. He rejected he. He basically skipped over the part about the militia just the same way the n._r._a. Does is in its lobby in the version of on the court so sir force however was in two thousand and eight. It was the first time that the u._s. Supreme court ever ever ruled that the second amendment reflected an individual right to gun ownership for self protection for anything other militia service and you know it followed follow decades of scholarship and then moving public opinion and you saw in the polls people began to think hey this is an individual right and the organs of government began to change their opinion. The justice department changed its opinion and it was only at the end of decades of this kind of changing of the public mind. Did they go to court and at that point the decision kind of fell like a ripe apple from the tree wasn't ultimately that controversial scalia said this was his great originalist opinion and it was five before and it said yes it is an individual right it was relating to ownership of handguns in the home for self protection so very different from your musket for melissa is a small core principle. Let me ask you this. Take it outside of a discussion of what the second amendment meant in what the law says and what the framers intended and just asked this question what is wrong with there being uninsured principle that you know a country namely america can choose to adopt that every american has an inviolable liable right in some limited way to have a firearm for self protection. Is there something wrong with that value in principle. I don't think there is in other words. We that is a pretty deeply ingrained american view right. We are a nation of individualists. We believe in people having the right to protect themselves and their families and that's not at odds with having strong gun laws. I thought that <hes> scalia in the heller decision in claiming that that was based on what the founders wanted that was the part that was really not really accurate so you object to the reasoning but you don't you don't object as you sit here to the principle that that can be a reasonable inviolable right. We we think that we have a right to protect ourselves and <hes> it's not it doesn't bother me that people in in one way or another have a right to protect themselves especially in their home but that is not at all at odds and so the the in that sense. There's an individual right of ownership again. That doesn't mean that that's what jason thought. He was putting into the constitution at the time but we've expanded our notion of rights in a lot of rome's since then but always along along with responsibilities always along with public safety and protection and even the heller decision said yes. It's an individual right but nothing being in here should be construed to mean that you can't have strong gun laws and it listed a bunch of different types of existing gun laws or traditional laws or if there's an unusually usually dangerous weapon it no scalia embraced the concept of gun regulation explicitly in heller in a very explicit way and at the time it was a big reveal that the court stated this individual right. It seemed like a constitutional earthquake but what happened. Afterwards there were hundreds of cases dozens of rulings wings by courts all across the country interpreting what this new doctrine men and overwhelmingly they upheld done laws they said yes. It's an individual right some of them grudgingly some of them enthusiastically but society also has a right to protect itself and the there were some instances where things were <hes> if they went too far were struck down but basically the lower courts meaning lower federal courts state courts all over the country said yeah yeah it's an individual right and that's great but you can still have strong gun laws and that's been the case for the past decade and the question is will it stay that way so heller which it's a lot of people don't like wasn't really the death knell of gun regulation as you point out. It actually gives them cover to some folks and i want to ask you what the practical consequences are of the current state of the law in the wake of heller so it essentially says you have this inviolable right for self protection by having a firearm in your home. Does that mean that if a state decided that based on its study's findings that the amount of robberies or burglaries that were prevented in the amount of self protection that actually happened happened because of this right was ex- you know ten robberies foiled seventeen homes protected because of these incidents but on the other hand hypothetically hypothetically you know four thousand children were killed by accidental gunshot wounds because they found a non-secured firearm in the home that was essentially there to protect the home and so that the state decides in that particular instance in the course of one year seventeen lives extensively saved making these numbers up four thousand lives lost. We're going to ban all firearms. We're going to bang ownership of all firearms. That'd be struck down immediately right. I think it would be struck down because it has her because of heller because it's a ban and it's out of proportion with what the courts have done as they do with most constitutional rights like the first amendment they say well is does a fundamental right they ask the right affected by the law and then is this a narrowly tailored way to deal with it and they don't use what's called generally speaking. They've not used what's it's called strict scrutiny in the first amendment context that has to be really passed through a very narrow set of criteria. They've used other standards sandards to balance these things and they have not allowed bans on some things but they've allowed very extensive restrictions regulations and things like that one of the challenges is that one of the things the n._r._a. Succeeded in doing was cutting off the ability of the national institutes of health or the center for disease control all or federal regulators to even look at the stuff the way they do for toasters or were you know lil on cars <hes> and so that kind of data is missing saying just at the very moment when it might actually be most necessary and useful in the court so is it your view that other than this carved out territory from heller that other gun regulations are fair game and it just depends on what is able to be passed in the state or federal i mean it seems to me that red flag laws and background checks salt weapon bands those don't rise or fall on the constitutional question well. I think that and most other judges would agree with you on that and the question now is to the justices awesome the u._s. supreme court agree with that supreme court during this period when all these gun cases were being adjudicated in federal courts all across the country the supreme grimm court turned down every opportunity to hear another second amendment case. They did a case in twenty ten to apply heller to the states but after that they turned down every opportunity nobody really knew why was it because <hes> justice candidate didn't wanna do it. Nobody knew where the votes were banana. Whatever the reason was they chose not to well now. There's a new majority party on the supreme court and you mentioned a few things. I think everybody agrees that background. Checks certainly don't fly in the face of heller. It's pretty explicitly the case that you are able to have the ability to make sure that people who shouldn't have guns legally don't have them red flag laws i. I'm i interested in what kinds of constitutional issues come up there because you know these are as i understand it in seventeen states with the support of the n._r._a. And they basically let the government come in and take away your gun without you know necessarily that much due process and i wouldn't be surprised if there's some litigation around what kind of <hes> <hes> rules there are about what what what the government can do but the assault weapons ban which again the reason we saw weapons ban has not been on the table is politics perfect not the second amendment but public sentiment comes right back into it now that's right but <hes> ten courts of appeals have said and around the country that win states for example passing salt weapons ban. It's constitutional because it's so dangerous. One judge issued a very breath strident dissent from that in a case called heller to break cava. He said that in fact in salt weapons ban the dc assault weapons ban was not constitutional that it was not appropriate to balance the individual right with public safety that you have to look at history and you gotta go back and look and see what the rule was back in the old days <hes> and before there was an assault weapon yeah and i think it would be impossible to imagine that this was basically his essay essays for his job application to signal. Hey look how pro gun folks think of me for this court but it was a <hes>. It was really outside. The mainstream of what republican democratic nominated judges have said on this and now for the first time the supreme court. This year took a second mimic case <hes>. It's the first one they've they've heard since <hes> twenty and reminds what the issue is there. It's a quirky weird issue from new new york. <hes> it was a regulation put in place by the giuliani mayoralty saying that you could not. I'm going to get it wrong but basically weekly. You couldn't bring your gun to your second home out of new york city. You can transport your gun if you had a license to your second home out in the country so luxury injury problems yeah it was. I don't suspect it was the biggest problem facing new york at the time and what has happened is that the supreme court took the case space and new york city changed the rule and i believe new york state passed a law changing the role and so the question now is since the case it is in fact moot whether this is going to go forward with hearing this case or not their debate to take place in the supreme court and other courts around the landing the new legislatures but you know there's another place where debates take place and these also helped shape public sentiment. That's been an important theme throughout our conversation and those debates happen in neighborhoods and on campuses and it worked places where you know a very terrible thing happens like el paso and i imagine like a lot of places people come to work where they go to family events and they begin talking talking about these things and debating these things other arguments that are more persuasive to average people than other arguments. I keep hearing people talk about well. Cars are are regulated related. You need a license to drive a car and you need to register your car and all that why not the same with guns. Is that a. Is that a good argument or is that a weak argument you know. I think it's a pretty good argument but but there's no constitutional right to own a car won't but there is a constitutional right to travel we now have more people die from guns in the united states and from cars and that's partly because we have thirty thousand or more people die from guns. Many of them suicides <hes> but it's also because cars have gotten safer used to be a lot more and there is a considered to be a constitutional right to travel. They didn't lower that death rate from cars by banning cars. They regulated them. They put an air bags they put in seatbelts driver's licenses safety rules and speed limits and all these things and people still have their cars and have the right to have a car but public sentiment played a role in that also right at the beginning. My understanding is that car companies fought all these things like seatbelts belsen particularly in the first the first paper wrote in college as a freshman in nineteen eighty-six was about how car companies were opposed to the air bag and then the following it from a distance in the year since partly what happened was consumers. People who bought cars began to care a lot more about safety and began to carry a lot more about death rates about airbags and all of a sudden now everyone's on the same page and you know volvo can people bought ovo instead of chevrolets and so they got with the program so public sentiment came around to the view that yeah. It's not an infringement fringe on our liberty. This is the thing that we really want as consumers and we're prepared to pay a little bit more for safercar. What's the equivalent of that that can happen with respect to guns well. You're exactly right not long ago. I worked for ralph nader and at time when the auto industry was fighting tooth and nail to keep air bags out of cars as crazy as that now. There's like thirty five air bags yeah yeah and it's a and it's a selling point. There's a lot of things people can do now even apart from urging congress or state legislators to act. There's consumer power toward retailers. Do you keep guns out of your stores. There's criticism of walmart in the wake of this massacre at a walmart. People realize that walmart is i believe one of the biggest if not the biggest seller of guns in the united states should they stop <hes> well in the wake of el paso they. I chose to stop selling violent video games but not guns fatty nashville. It's not the problem right michael. Video games are not the problem. They watch more violent video games in japan than they do in the united states but they don't somehow have the same gun deficit that we have you know i think strong case could be made that walmart would stop. There's also oh gun owners. If you look at guns the technological developments that have that have happened in the way guns are manufactured there really aren't that many and they tend to be more about making the more lethal having bigger magazines or other things like that things to make them more exciting that way but there are all kinds of safety devices that could be putting guns to make them so that children can't use them or they're smart guns that only recognize your fingerprint or your facial recognition ignition all the things that smartphones have an whenever companies have tiptoed up to doing any of that. There's actually been a rebellion by the most active active gun owners meaning the n._r._a. When i believe it was smith and wesson in the late nineteen ninety s made settlement in the wake of the tobacco cases <hes> <hes> to have trigger locks child safety things. They faced a boycott organized by the n._r._a. And so there's also a need for gun owners to step up up and say you know we have a we have. We want our rights protected. We believe in this but we are citizens to and we have. We have a role to play what's going on with the n._r._a. Is on its last legs. You keep hearing hiring scandal after scandal and there's issues relating to money and wayne lapierre needing seventeen houses and apparently expensive suits what is going on with the power of the n._r._a. And the the organization generally you know <hes> it's a good thing they don't have gotten because they're really fighting it out and suing each other. I mean the n._r._a. Seems to have become. There's a there's a saying and i'm gonna get it wrong but you know many things started as a cause and end up as a racket and <hes> it seems as though the leadership of the n._r._a. Wound up milking this cash cow for personal use. There's a lot of investigations what's going on over a possible violation of nonprofit law questions about <hes> where they got the money that they used to suddenly spend a ton of money on behalf of donald don't trump after not spending money in presidential elections up until now <hes> they seem to be falling apart and flying apart however that doesn't necessarily mean that's going to be a permanent thing again. There's an intensity on the part of their supporters that can't be denied but the the notion that they are this fearsome unbeatable machine that terrifies politicians in the dark of night. I think should take hit here and i think if you can see real action on some of these gun issues at a moment when the n._r._a. Is falling apart. I think that the kind of the optics of the politics could change you also have the you asked about what some of the arguments that are most compelling a women and they're increasingly important role in politics. This is a very gendered gendered issue and it's really a sort of a shrinking group of white. Men who are the people who are pushing for gun rights strong gun rights and they're smaller smaller and smaller part of the electorate even as the supreme court may be poised to lock that view in for longer and longer in the constitution so i wouldn't be utterly pessimistic but it's hardly the case that this fight is over top gun reforms. That should be passed into law if you could get it done. I'm no expert on the actual question of what would make the most sense what i hear from folks is real background. Check system would get a lot done. The the question on the salt weapons these all weapons ban that was passed in federal law and during the crime bill of nineteen ninety four and at the time the crime bill was passed that was the controversial provision in terms of public debate and now it's the one that joe biden others yeah point to to save themselves from criticism right right. It was not foolproof. It was full of loopholes but there's some strong evidence that mass shootings in particular did go down during the time when the salt weapons ban was was in effect and have gone up. I think that one of the things that's really noteworthy and again. I don't pretend to know what the right answer is on. These things is that you've started to see people like cory booker. Booker and other people talk about licensing of gun owners or even registration of certain kinds of guns. These were things that were off. The table is ah effective politically does that freak out the large number of people who who own guns and believe and gun safety and they begin to worry. We'll this this is is going to be the first step along the road to confiscation them not saying that that's true i know and in the past that's what the politics of the assault weapons opens ban has been also and that is where i think our hope the heller decision and other decisions like that can draw a line and say hey look you know this wing court has made it clear the black helicopters can't come in and confiscate all your guns even if even if the deep state wanted to it's unconstitutional. It's not gonna happen. Plus we have almost four hundred million guns in the united states is just not going to happen so you say that and i'm gonna say something sorta pessimistic even if you cut back on a lot of things right now in past a lot of laws there forty million guns in the country the only country in the world. I think that has more guns than people. What can you do about that. In other words too late given the existing proliferation of firearms in the hands of americans. It's challenging because guns last for long time and <hes> the technology is pretty simple and guns that are sold today will still be working decades from now and so. I don't think anybody anybody can pretend that. There's an easy answer to this. I think it's a lot of social and cultural changes again. We've seen gun violence. Go down in the united states along with crime generally. If we were having this conversation three decades ago you know the crime rate in the united states quadrupled from from one thousand nine hundred sixty two nine thousand nine hundred ninety and then since then it's been declining steadily and nobody can really tell you exactly why why that happened. We the brand center of alive studies that make it pretty clear to us at least that the massive level of incarceration that we have is not the reason but there are a whole bunch of of other things that had something to do with that and so- gun violence is broadly the same way and and some of it is generational change some of it is people's expectations occasions but i think getting us into a more normal political space where you can have real discussions of what kind of gun safety rules actually work. You can have debate over what makes sense what doesn't make sense what evidence there is without a instantly becoming this kind of highly polarized you know individual visual freedom versus fascistic government debate if we can get to that point then i think a lot of progress can be made. What's in lots lots of people's minds is the gun issue the second amendment but there are lots of other things that the brennan center works on and that you were very expert on like democracy generally and the right to vote and and one of the great things people should be thankful for you on is how much energy you've devoted to that. What would you say is the biggest obstacle to participation in our democracy today. There are a lot of obstacles. There are a lot of ways that people are not engaged <hes> things that you wouldn't necessarily expect such as weak political michael parties or people not being active in labor unions and churches but it's also the case that the way our system runs the way we run elections in this country is a surprisingly significant obstacle to people's democratic participation and unfortunately there's a lot of people who are trying to make it harder for people to vote and make the elections elections less meaningful and less representative and unfortunately that's become a pretty clear political strategy to restrict the vote and try again advantage as a result so what we need to fix first off. Probably the most important reform we can make right now has to do with voter registration. We have one of the worst voter registration systems in the world one of the only places where people fall off the rolls when they move where there's tons of errors were millions of people show up to vote every year and and find that they're not on the rolls the way they thought they were we all kind of take it for granted but other democracies don't do it this way and there's a reform that the brennan center helped develop called automatic matic voter-registration which says if you're eligible to vote basically you're you're a registered to vote if you interact with the government agency unless you choose to not be registered district and it's now in sixteen states and the district of columbia and if it were those those blue states red states or both both both <hes> it passed in illinois which is blue state but it passed unanimously in the legislature alaska voters voted for it even as has they were voting for donald trump for president west virginia <hes> as well as california and a lot of other more traditionally progressive states and if it were fully implemented it would add fifty million people to the roles permanently it would curb the potential for fraud and improve election security because you have a strong long list of who's eligible to vote and cost less so this this would make a big difference who's against it. It's been inertia and a lot of it has been at the federal level for example. This was one of the items that was in h._r. One this very significant sweeping democracy reform legislation the passed the house of representatives h._r. One has automatic voter registration. It has small donor public financing for campaigns based on the system. We have in new york city to make it so ordinary. People have allowed our voice in that system. It has a national requirement for redistricting commissions to draw district blinds so they have real competition around the country and representation of all communities <hes> and mitch mcconnell is blocking this from coming up in the senate <hes> <hes> a lot of this is the kind of general resistance to having anything that would strengthen democracy and make it more widely available so i would se automatic automatic voter-registration restoring the strength of the voting rights act real redistricting reform so that you don't have the rigging of the system that we see with gerrymandering gerrymandering and real campaign finance reform all those which are widely popular would transform the politics of our country. I really believe that and this zog's come to a head in this election. How so few ways the fight to vote is going to be really significant in determining how the election and is fought you have purges of voting rolls all over the country brand. Senator just did a study showing that seventeen million people were purged from the voting rolls in the last two years. Now some of those people were kicked off the rolls because they moved or something like that. We don't know fully but a lot of them were eligible. Voters and the rate was much higher in the states with history of discrimination based on race under the voting rights act. It's very troubling very suspicious. You have the threat of russian hacking and other security threats to voting machines that are gonna make people really worry that the results of the election aren't going to be right. The urgent need to buy a new voting machines to strengthen our defenses. We needed to do this anyway. But now we know that there really are building in saint petersburg russia of hackers or is in there trying to mess with our elections and and the russian government and who knows who else so there's a lot of things that could really affect people's confidence in the election the and one thing that is different is the candidates now on the democratic side and in particular finally talking about this issue as a reform. They want to enact as a top priority. Should they be elected so amazing jobs. You've had during your career and i wanted to close with this was you. You were director of speechwriting for william jefferson clinton. You're responsible for overseeing and writing drafting editing and back then there have been three republican presidential terms. It's sort of like what you're talking about with the n._r._a. The feeling was you gotta. Talk a certain way and walk a certain way. If you're going to get elected as a democrat i i really think he thought of himself as regressive present in a conservative serve country <hes> one time privately as we working on one of those state of the union addresses. He said you know f._d._r. Saved capitalism from itself. He didn't and make that up. That's a well-worn observation said f._d._r. Save capitals and from it's our job is to save government from its own excesses so it can be seen as a progressive. It's a force again and so it was a very different time i i would argue that a lot of the things that were done then create the conditions for people being willing to use government again now in a different way you know this is a challenge joe. Biden has of having to explain and defend policies arguments minson decisions from decades ago when we're living in the here and now and people understandably have different views in the wake of the financial collapse in the wake of donald trump and and demographic change and everything else. It's a different time. Here's what stunning stunning to me about the way that donald trump uses his his bully pulpit and and all the various podiums that he speaks from every president up to now that i can remember in my lifetime democrat or republican. We're talking about reagan or the bushes or obama or clinton and specifically. We will ask you this with respect to your experience. Overseeing speechwriting for president clinton the rhetoric always not always but most of the time particularly a key junctures sought to expand the base of support and sought to speak to people who may not have voted for that person but who you aspire to have vote for you and so so the language was often reaching out across the aisle in whatever way republicans and democrats have done that how conscious a decision was that when you were writing for president clinton in other words who who is your audience. How much of the how much did you think about well. I want to make sure that we're saying things that are supporters of people voted for us agree with an applaud and be happy about and how how much were you thinking about the people that you might wanna get the next time around versus what this president seems to do president trump it was very conscious and you're right that isn't just something that bill clinton did but george w bush talking about being a compassionate conservative or <hes> you use that bully pulpit to try to speak to a wider audience winston your own core supporters and the way clinton did it and most of these presidents have done it is to try to appeal in values terms to what might be unifying a cross cutting themes that pull people together a lot of <hes> clinton's speeches revolved around as he described it the values of opportunity <unk> -tunities responsibility and community and it sort of just sounds like a lot of blah blah blah but it actually was a significant tweak of the democratic message to talk about opportunity but also also responsibility and that lead to policies like the earned income tax credit which was working poor people's tax credit. That's been an extraordinary success in lifting lifting people out of poverty. <hes> presents are very conscious. Event in when we were working with clinton on the state of the union addresses we were always very he was always very aware especially especially of which policy which argument would appeal to and which would get the democrats on their feet and which would reach out to republicans and it drove his opponents crazy and it drove a lot of his own supporters crazy because he was not speaking like in his mind like an orthodox democrat and just the sandwich george w bush at the beginning of his term before nine eleven sort of re shaped everything george w bush also had to reach out rhetorically bill bill clinton when he was elected in nineteen ninety-two only got forty three percent of the vote and he didn't get a majority of the second time even though he won handily only barack obama of democrats had a majority twice in decades so it is a different time and of course even obama of course for all kinds of reasons seasons very very consciously reached out in rhetorical terms to broaden his argument so that it could speak to the core more patriotic values that we are rooted in that preamble to the declaration of independence that all we're all created equal the <unk> civic creed and what's so depressing and startling about trump is that he has substituted for this great american presidential tradition shen of calling out those better angels this kind of blood and soil white nationalist language. It's hard to just give it any other word than that. If you look at his inaugural address the one that talked about american carnage remember it. It did not mention the constitution. It didn't use the word liberty. No you didn't do these things that think of ronald reagan or clinton or any other presidents speak to in that kind of sacramento moment and you know i do worry as somebody who had the experience of working unwanted sound like one of those old guys you know talking about the glory of the presidency and but in fact it's it's pretty significant responsibility when you're anywhere near. It and i do worry that this office that has been this driver of a lot of progress in the country's history is broken by this man and as you and i have talked about and worked on anytime there's an abuse of power our pipe president and happens hasn't just been this president. There's always a response and part of that is a policy response part of that is putting in place things to fix the norms restore store the norms but one of the norms that can't really be addressed by laws are kind of what the presidency means to the country and how presents speak to the country and then we've got. I pity the people who have to compile the books of presidential speeches which are done by the national archives well. Luckily there's a program. I'm to do that for twitter. Twitter feed that takes his tweets and makes them look as though their official presidential statements and it's going to be an interesting challenge for whoever has that job uh michael waldman you are the president of an organization that does so much good and it's called the brennan center for justice. Thank you for your service. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for what you do. The conversation continues members of the cafe insider community this week the bipartisan and historical tradition of gerrymandering what it was like writing words for president who so often went off book and michael waldman's definition of justice get the stay tuned bonus and the exclusive weekly cafe insider podcast go to cafe dot com slash insider well. That's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guest michael walden tweet your questions that freaked muraro with the hashtag pre or you can call six nine two four seven <music> seven three three eight and leave me a message that six nine two four preet or you can send an email to stay tuned at cafe dot com if if you like what we do rate and review the show on apple podcasts you reviews help new listeners find the show. Stay tuned is presented by cafe. The executive producer is tomorrow. Supper over the senior. Producer is erin dalton and the cafe team is carl appearance. Julia doyle calvin lord ambassador and jeff is our music. It is by andrew dice clay. I'm pre- ferrara. Stay tuned.

president michael waldman Supreme court bill clinton america united states james madison brennan center senate heller virginia congress attorney australia new york
S4 E12: More Democracy

Scene On Radio

57:29 min | 11 months ago

S4 E12: More Democracy

"A content warning. This episode includes the sound of police brutality. That a lot of people will find hard to listen to. Challenge. We are not a news podcast. No, WE'RE GONNA. We very consciously take a longer view. You know we try to get at truths about who and what we are as a society that are more evergreen. But Man who? So? This is a series about democracy in America right. And we posted. The first episode is trump's impeachment. Trial was getting started. And now here we are in June twenty, twenty, a recording the last episode of our season, and there's a major protest movement I mean. You could even say a rebellion happening across the country. We asked at the beginning of season for hasn't American democracy always been in crisis. And I think our series has shown. The answer is yes. But it's SORTA like with medical conditions right. There are chronic crises and acute crises. And Right, we've got several immediate emergencies, any one of them historic layered on top of each other and I think the police are really good example of that right you know policing is an institution that has been involved in racist violence from its inception. But the acute problem is the latest murder of an unarmed black man by a white police officer George Floyd in Minneapolis. and that sparked a powerful uprising across the country, and even across the world. But, of course this uprising is about more than just the killing of one man. It's about countless murders of black people over generations either committed or condoned by this country, including Brianna Taylor Amman Aubrey just in the past few weeks. And it's actually about even more than this kind of murder. Right at you know. It's about hundreds of years of what the author Robert Allen called domestic colonialism. And I think if you've listened to the season. You kinda understand what he means by that. So I just WanNa be clear because you know I'm hearing a lot of people talking about how people in the streets. This is a crisis. You know in the context of all of that oppression. In the failure to achieve justice when you see people in the streets to stand against white supremacy, that is not the crisis that. Is. Complicated as it is, is actually a reason for hope. So this uprising is happening while we're in the middle of the worst pandemic in a century. And an economic collapse that's thrown millions of people into extreme financial trouble. Thanks to a week you might say callous response by our national leaders to the pandemic and to the economic ramifications of the pandemic. That is millions more in addition to the many millions of Americans who were already in financial crisis before the pandemic just in the day to day of are deeply unequal and precarious economic reality in this country. Salat. And actually distill not everything right because these crises are all in a way failures of democracy this whole season we've looked at you know. Some of the limitations of American democracy and the current administration is able to explore all of those weaknesses. We've been discussing all season. Right, this president has no regard for checks and balances. He continues to push toward authoritarianism. And while doing that, he his sort of kept the support of one of our two major political parties. and. They're up for reelection in a few months. So I'm not like romantic about you know. American democracy or anything like that, but our system of government does have some structures and traditions that are supposed to be about transparency accountability, and some limits on the abuses that a would be autocrat might carry out. And it's frightening to think what would be left of all of that after four more years of trump and his henchmen and their enablers who don't want to think about that. Yeah. So against this backdrop as they say. We're going to try to wrap up our season on democracy in America. I think as central takeaway of our series is that the US never has been yet. The shining democracy that most Americans hear about in the mainstream of our culture from the seventeen seventies up until today. But we talked about this before challenge The series hasn't just been a big downer. least we don't think so all along. We've told stories about people on the margins fighting for Justice and democracy. And, sometimes, winning big victories. Black people and other people of Color Women Poor folks lgbt people, workers and I think the season. We've also made the point. That whether you're talking about a moment like reconstruction whether you're talking about a moment like you know the Great Depression these moments of deep crisis pivotal. Moments of real danger, because people with power and anti-democratic agendas will try to take advantage of a crisis to move their agenda forward. But a crisis also a moment of opportunity and possibility for people who are trying to build a more democratic society. So now more than ever. We need to be asking ourselves. What are we going to do? Right now. Can't you know this very well? But this chant is a staple at marches and demonstrations. Captures. Is that protest is what democracy looks like? At least it's one really important part of right. I mean protests have played a real crucial role in pushing for change in the past the suffrage movement. Think of the civil rights and anti Vietnam War, movements or pickets organized by organized labor. People out there making their voices heard directly forcing those in power to listen demanding change and demanding justice. But okay more specifically, what does democracy look like? Given the deeply undemocratic structures within America's political and economic systems that we've explored here. What would a more democratic America look like right now? I know there's a lot of people who may be aren't even thinking in terms of a big idea like democracy. But in the midst of all this mess, they know things aren't working now, and they just WanNa know how it should work, and how big can be a positive solution, so that's the question and challenge for the season finale. We decided that you're gonNA. Stay with me throughout the episode. So. Let's get to it and buckle your seatbelts. y'All, 'cause you know we bout to go in. From the Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University, it's seen on radio season for the twelfth and final episode in our series, exploring democracy in the US in the past and the present. We call the series the land that never has been yet. Thanks again, Langston Hughes for that phrase. I'm John, biewen hosted producer and I'm ginger. ICU Monica I'm a professor of media studies at Rutgers, university? I'm also a podcast, artists and organizer. At the end of our season two series seeing white, we didn't episode. What folks can do to take on white supremacy, so we decided to do something similar to close out season four, so we're imagining you dear listener, someone who's been with us for these doesn't episodes and hopefully for previous seasons. You may already be active in all kinds of ways plugged in with other folks working for social change. Or like a lot of us, maybe not so much. Yeah, I mean it's hard to know what to do. especially in a culture too often encourages us to just escape. or to contribute to the greater good, just by like spending money or consumption. So we imagine the listener out there. WHO's asking? What are some ways I could be thinking about taking action? Obviously a major way that citizens wield power in a democracy is by voting. It's not the only way by any means and we'll have more to say about that. But. The vote is fundamental. So part of acting to make the country more democratic is knowing what policies to support with vote. And if the goal is to maximize people power, some of those policies have to do with elections themselves, so let's talk about that I, fixing our elections. I spoke with Michael Waldman I'm the president of the Brennan Center for Justice and then ways school of law. We are a non-partisan law and Policy Institute we work to. Reform and strengthen, and when necessary defend the systems of democracy and justice in the United States Waldman wrote a book, the fight to vote about the history of the struggle voting rights. Chance remember when I said I found it surprising, the more or less open efforts by a lot of Republicans in particular to suppress the vote. Especially, the votes of black people, young people people highly likely to vote for Democrats. But Michael Waldman makes an important point. That somebody like me would be surprised by these efforts, not only because I'm white and lived a sheltered and took my own voting rights for granted. But also because I happen to come of age in a window of time, the last third of the twentieth century after the victories won by the Civil Rights Movement so the Voting Rights Act is passed in nineteen, sixty five, and for a few decades after that it was possible for at least some people to get the idea that okay. This issue is settled. We all agree that everybody should be able to vote in this country. and. That apparent consensus held together more or less into the arts. The two thousands when the voting rights act was last reauthorized by Congress. It received ninety eight votes in the Senate. It was not a partisan issue. George W Bush proudly signed into law that was in two thousand six. But here's the thing Michael, says that period of forty years or so after nineteen sixty five was really the only time in US history when there seemed to be a consensus about universal voting rights. It's become much more contentious much more of a political fight in recent years. But I guess you could take some solace from the fact that when you look at the country's history, who gets vote? How people vote? The effort to widen the franchise and the effort to stop that from happening has always been very political. It's been that people have fought about and fought elections about so it's not unusual really that people are fighting about how we vote, and who votes right now. Actually calm and placid uniformity in some ways is more unusual. I mean that's obviously true. If you look at the history covered the season, even that temporary consensus was superficial member episode eight, we heard the conservative Paul wire speaking in one, thousand, nine, hundred and saying I don't want everybody to vote. So. There were always people seething about widespread voting rights and looking for ways to shut them down, and those people want a huge victory in twenty thirteen. When the Supreme Court gutted the voting rights act in the Shelby County case. A key part of the voting rights act required states with a history of racial discrimination in voting. To get federal approval before they could change their laws in ways that might affect access to the vote. Chief Justice Roberts wrote the majority opinion striking down that part of the law. He essentially said the country has changed. The South has changed. Black voters don't need this federal protection anymore and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote a very ringing descent, and it was kind of A. Descent that made her the notorious RPG. Really people took note of it, and she said that's like standing in a rainstorm, holding an umbrella and not getting wet. And concluding therefore the you don't need an umbrella and throwing away the umbrella because you're not wet. What happened well? We literally within hours of the Supreme Court's ruling. States began to. Be! Voting laws to make it harder for people to vote especially harder for people of color to vote. All across the south states controlled by Republicans got to work changing their election laws. A favorite move was require voter ID at the polls. It just happens that guess what about ten percent of eligible voters don't have a driver's license in those folks are disproportionately black, Brown and poor. So in Texas, the new law said a gun. Registration Card is acceptable substitute for driver's license, but student. ID is not students tend to vote for Democrats and folks will on guns while. You see how that goes. Republican legislatures have shortened early voting periods which are very popular with black voters. A lot of get out the vote efforts by black churches for example souls to the polls take advantage of early voting. These states reduced the period in which that can happen. They closed thousands of polling places in black and Brown neighborhoods here in North Carolina. Where I live, a court, said the state's new election laws were written with almost surgical precision to target black voters. The courts have struck down some of these laws up to now, but this is one reason it's so significant that president trump and Mitch McConnell. The Senate majority leader have pushed through two hundred new right wing judges since trump took office. Yes, that's after they stonewalled a whole bunch of president. Obama's judicial appointments, not just Merrick Garland in the Supreme Court. Throughout the federal courts that the courts change, and the federal courts become more and more conservative and arguably more and more partisan, you may start to see significantly different rulings from those courts. Throughout. The country's history and increasingly now we can't be certain that the courts are GonNa step in these fights ultimately play out at the ballot box, and in the court of public opinion so what it's going to take to protect and reinstate the voting. Rights Act is for Congress to act to basically pass a new version of the law. But for that to happen, Americans will have to vote in a different kind of. One where Republican supporters of voter suppression don't have the power to block a new voting rights, act. Another anti-democratic strategy that needs to be stopped is Gerrymander and most of you all know this, but it's the practice of drawing legislative districts to advantage the disadvantage one political party and it's often done using race. For example, corralling all the black voters in a given area into one district in order to keep those voters from having any impact in other districts. Gerrymandering is as old as the country. The word should be pronounced Gerry Mander, because it's named for Elbert Gary One of the framers of the constitution whose name came up early in the season, and by the way he's the guy who said at the constitutional convention that America's problem was too much democracy. Yes, that guy. The thing is as far as gerrymandering. Computer Technology has made it so efficient and effective to the point where states like Wisconsin and North Carolina are just about hardwired to stay in Republican hands, even when a majority of votes statewide go to Democrats. In two thousand Eighteen Democrats got slightly more votes overall in assembly races in Wisconsin and Republicans still came out with a twenty-seven seat majority. Meanwhile Maryland Court, found Democrats had gerrymandered the state to benefit themselves. The reason this is a problem in the first place is that most states allow the majority party in the state legislature to control the drawing of districts? That's an invitation to the party in power to stay in power. Never mind the will of the people. Here's Michael Wallman again in the last decade. It's been the Republicans. Who benefited from that because they? Won Midterm Elections in two thousand ten, but both parties have done this when they could and end the the movement around the country to take gerrymandering has actually been embraced by people of left and right and center in Twenty eight, for example, four states passed ballot initiatives. Creating commissions are doing other reforms. you have a redistricting reform or independent commissions drying the district lines all over the country? Or there are states where there's. Reform Gun by courts and other things like that these efforts in different parts of the country may not be necessary if the Supreme Court had ruled that partisan gerrymandering is unconstitutional which they had a chance to do in twenty nineteen. But they refuse to weigh in the Roberts court will be known for its ruling on. And, not in a good way. so again it's going to be up to voters to make it clear. They care about this. So that listener were talking to. You can find out what's happening in your state. Push your representatives on reforms that make districting fair and non partisan and help elect people support. Fixing and expanding the voting rights, act and national districting reform are both in that law that the House of Representatives passed in two thousand nineteen after the Democrats took control. The one Mitch McConnell blocked in the Senate hr one. About episode, eight. So, our other policies that the Brennan Center for Justice and other pro democracy groups helped to craft. Changes that would just make it a lot easier for everyone to vote. Yes, things like automatically registered people to vote when they become eligible require plenty of early voting time and restore voting rights to people convicted of felonies after they've done their time and to be honest, I think people who are incarcerated should have the right to vote. Public financing of elections, including matching money for small donations to increase the power of regular voters. Reverse the court's citizens united decision. And restore limits on corporate campaign spending and also shining light on so called dark money. HR One would also tightened conflict of interest laws to reduce. Corruption You know if what you want as revolution, these things can seem like small potatoes. Good government tweaks, but the fact is changes like these would shift power in a real way away from plutocrats, and in the direction of regular citizens I've seen it here in Philadelphia. Yes, but says Waldman, you can only have that kind of change of people demand. There's democracy movement all over the country people passing ballot initiatives people demanding of candidates. Where do you stand on citizens united? Where do you stand on HR One? It's like nothing I've seen in years and years. We have to see that this system that we have is not working very well and we need to really change it and. Changing. Howard democracy works is a critical part of that. You know. In this asymmetrical world, we live in where both sides ism just isn't going to cut it. There's another thing. Democrats in Congress would like to do to protect our democracy, and which leading Republicans are blocking. and. That's election security. Just you know spending some money to get the safest technology to make sure the votes get counted fairly to make it harder for anyone to hack in and steal elections and stuff like that. WHOA WHOA that sounds like a radical left wing agenda John Okay. But seriously I mean, isn't this the issue that somehow live to Mitch McConnell Getting called Moscow Mitch. Yes, after Robert. Mueller warned that the Russians had every intention of interfering again in the two thousand twenty election. McConnell blocked consideration of an election security bill. which led some people to ask? If Republican Party leaders, actually welcome Russian, interference on behalf of their candidate. But I heard Mitch McConnell really doesn't like the name Moscow Mitch. So we won't call them Moscow Mitch Anymore but seriously election security can be a rabbit hole in the nuances around election. Technology can get pretty arcane. But I know what's important, so you spoke to someone who can help us if you takeaways rank Jennifer cone, she's an attorney and freelance journalist who advocates election integrity. She started studying the issue after the two thousand sixteen election. One thing Jennifer noticed, government officials were offering assurances that vote totals could not have been hacked by Russia or anyone else. Because voting and ballot counting machines don't even connect to the Internet, but then you had. Someone like Alex Alderman. Who is one of the most respected election security advocates? He's a computer scientist at the University of Michigan explaining that before every election all voting machines. At, the precincts have to receive programming from a centralized county or state computer that itself can and often does connect to the Internet. At least in most states are in most counties, not only that it turns out some ballot scanning machines that local precinct officials used to count ballots at the polls they send their vote totals over the Internet. To people at the county or state level who add up the votes said there actually were opportunities for Internet hackers to access the vote tallies and yet election officials were saying something different. Cone also notes public officials and reporters. Repeating the line that there was quote no evidence. The votes were changed in the two thousand sixteen election, which of course, Donald Trump won by a sliver in the Electoral College, a total of eight thousand votes in three states. But she says officials didn't really look for that kind of evidence. Thorough audits were not done in any of those three decisive states Wisconsin Michigan or Pennsylvania. The point is not to relitigate twenty sixteen. It's about the next election. Jennifer Cohen thinks it's troubling that only about seventy percent of votes cast in the US are done on hand, marked paper ballots. That's the only way to create a hard non digital receipt for any potential recount. The other thirty percent are done on electronic touch screen machines. And the vast majority of those machines are sold by just two companies. Experience in the last two elections showed the machines can get glitch and flipped votes and the voter not notice. Never, mind the potential for hacking into the machines changing votes experts all agree that no matter what type of voting machine we use, they can all be hacked one way or another. They're just many many. Different ways that this can happen and that it is virtually impossible to prevent a sophisticated and determined hacker from doing so and therefore the only way. To really secure elections is not even it's more after the fact you have to conduct a robust manual audit or full manual recount. Of Hand marked paper ballots, and unfortunately this just doesn't. It rarely rarely happens in the United States. So here's where things stand right now. Election Security, the first Gerona virus relief bill included four hundred million dollars in emergency funding to help local officials prepare to do the election during a pandemic. But that's just a down payment on when experts as needed Michael Waldman's Brennan Center for Justice is said states need two billion in federal money to help hold a safe insecure election this fall. Democrat best for four billion, but Republicans have resisted so far. As we record this in June. Michael Waldman and Jennifer cone say it's already getting late. Congress probably isn't going to spend. The money at should spend were spend in time to really secure the election in November. But that doesn't mean all is lost, and they both emphasize. Don't for a second. Thank, you shouldn't vote. A lot of people across the country are working very hard to make sure your vote gets counted. So please show up. Okay John so far. We've talked about changes to protect people's right to vote to make it easier to vote and make sure our votes get counted, not mess with. But, we still got these problems with the architecture of the US government. Make some votes count more than others give some people more power than others, and really thought the will of the majority out there in the country by design Yup going back to episode two in particular and the antidemocratic structures that the framers built into the constitution. There might be some legislative ways around some of these problems, but to do it right. We just may need to call a constitutional convention and rewrite the thing. That's what I'm talking about. Meet Sandy Levinson Hi I'm Sanford or Sandy Levinson I teach at the University of Texas Law School, and also have an appointment in the Department of Government Universities Texas been for thirty nine years. Yeah, Professor Levinson wrote a book that is right on point. It's called our undemocratic constitution where the constitution goes wrong and how we, the people can correct it how to correct it. First and foremost. Sure enough. Say It with me. The US Senate as we know, it has got to go clearly in the twenty first century I believe the US Senate is indefensible. That is to say if you subscribe to what the Supreme Court has called the principle of one person. One vote that is equal voting power equal representation. eight fair opportunity for. Majorities to rule then there is simply no defense for the fact that Wyoming and California or Vermont and Texas have the same voting power in the Senate California gets two senators representing forty million people. In Wyoming also gets two senators representing a little more than half a million people, which is giving. Fresno California two US senators. Here's another way of looking at just how unfair it is fifty percent of the entire American population now live in nine states. They get a total of eighteen senators by definition less than fifty percent of the population live in the remaining forty one states, and they get eighty two senators. Did you get that? One half of the country gets eighteen senators the other half eighty two. If you live in one of the more populous states, you are grossly underrepresented in the United States Senate. That's unfair on its face. But of course it has real partisan impact given where Americans live. Most of the heavily rural states with small populations are disproportionately white conservative Republican. The coastal states with the largest populations are much more diverse and lean blue, so a hugely powerful body and setting the course of this country, the US Senate is dramatically more conservative than the country as a whole, it's also egregiously unrepresentative and other important ways because of what it takes to get elected. The Senate is much wider. More male dominated exponentially richer than the nation rules. Now Sandy. Levinson isn't saying we should just kill off the Senate he thinks. The country is too big to be run by a single legislative house, but he argues we should replace the Senate with a second house that in one way or another, at least offers proportional representation like the House of Representatives one person one vote. So remake the Senate. Best the big ticket item for Article One of the Constitution which deals with Congress article two is the presidency. What is Sandy Lebanon? Say about that sandy argues the president has too much power especially in the presidential veto. So right now. Both houses of Congress passed a law right. And that's hard to do in part because the Senate, which tends to just block a lot of stuff coming from the house. Especially, if it's geared to helping poor or working class people. But a bill passes, and if the president doesn't like it, he vetos it. Now it takes a two thirds majority in the House and the Senate to override the veto. which only happens about four percent of the time, a hundred and eleven times in all of us history I mean look what happened in two thousand nineteen remember trump was mad that congresswoman build his border wall, so we use that temporary surge of immigrants and refugees at the southern border declare declare a bogus national emergency, so we could divert money from military budgets to fund the wall. It was such an outrageous abuse of power to Congress passed resolution reversing trump's declaration. Even some Republicans in Congress voted for the resolution. But trump is vetoed the bill. Congress couldn't get a two-thirds majority to override so trump's emergency declaration stood so yeah that Beato gives president's enormous power in the legislative process on top of their powers head of the branch here again Sandy Levin doesn't argue for doing away with the presidential veto completely. He thinks it should just be easier to ride. Say instead of two thirds in both houses you'd need a simple majority of both houses combined, which is how some states do it with the governor's veto. Levinson also wants to make it easier to get rid of a bad president. He says the process. The framers put in the constitution to remove presidents for quote. High crimes and misdemeanors just doesn't work. The impeachment clause has been an auditor. Failure, I would prefer that. We have some mechanism for voting what parliamentary systems would call a vote of no confidence where you don't have to decide that the president is a crook. All you have to say is that the president has exhibited such flaws of character or judgment. That you, no longer want this person's president. Yeah I'm here for that. That sounds like a very helpful provisions. It could just hypothetically it could come in handy sometime. Sandy says we should also consider just getting rid of the presidency and moving to a parliamentary system like most other democracies in the world. Oh, and yes, if we're GONNA, keep electing president. Levinson says it is absolutely past time to get rid of the electoral. College Oh. So like the candidate who gets the most votes would win as sounds bizarre, but you gotta be willing to think outside the box sometimes you know. The Electoral College to skews to the advantage of the Republican presidential candidate. At least now these days it gives people in the smallest states up to three times the clout in the form of electoral. College votes per capita. As people in the biggest states? Hi I'm like in this. But we gotta do something about the Supreme Court to. Article Three of the Constitution. We basically had an undemocratic right-wing takeover of the court in part, because Republicans in Congress refuse to allow a black president to fill a seat on the court in two thousand sixteen. Members of the court appointed for life. That gives presidents an incentive to appoint somebody young, so they can stay there advancing the president's ideological agenda for decades. Away. Sandy. Levinson has an idea. One of the lessons of experience ought to be that life tenure particularly for Supreme Court justices is a mistake. It would be literally more than enough if they served single eighteen year terms eighteen year terms, each term fixed to a date and staggered two years apart. So one of the nine seats on the court would come open every two years so that each president would be guaranteed to appointments per four year term, and that no single president could pack the court with the majority it would take three successive wins by political party, including control of the Senate over that entire period in order to make sure that judges from their party would constitute a majority. Supreme Court now. Obviously, these are just some of the highlights of the proposals and Sandy Levin since. And the just one person's ideas for making the constitution more democratic, but then again he's not just any person. Levinson is one of the most eminent constitutional scholars in the country, but yes for us. The point is not here is our official five point plan. But, if you see how some fundamental features of the Constitution anti-democratic Sandy's arguments show, there would be ways of addressing that that we the people could kick around. The fact is it's very hard to change the constitution, even a single amendment. Let alone a constitutional convention to do a major overhaul. Two thirds of the state legislatures thirty four states would have to vote to call a convention which has never happened. It's also risky. Because once you call a convention, most scholars think just about anything could be put on the table, not just the proposed amendments that you or I might want. But as we've said changed, the seems impossible can suddenly become very possible especially in a crisis, and if enough people get on board and demanding. A. So far in this episode we've been all about the nuts and bolts electoral politics side of things. And making those processes more democratic. But now we're GONNA shift gears. There's so much more besides casting votes that we can and need to do to make real change. Ginger you've been some work over the last few months as a separate project talking with people doing labor organizing as well as activism in their local communities. Including on things like city council campaign. And one thing I keep finding is that all these different forms of action seem to overlap, but you might start out working on local political campaign and find out that those efforts are bumping up against your life as a worker. All Right? Let's just have you take it away for a few minutes and tell us about one of those workers you spoke with. All right. I was sitting at home, reading up on the news and I I saw that someone had one fighting for fifteen minimum wage and Seattle had passed it, and it was the first fifteen minimum wage in the country. My Name's Matt Smith I work as a contract handler in Kent Washington. which is right outside of Seattle. We met I. Heard Somebody say fifteen dollars minimum wage. He thought to himself hell. Yeah, that sounds great. But kind of felt like it was a realistic when it started to be used as a slogan. It was a pipe dream like people dismissed it as impossible and seeing a city winning. A fifteen dollars minimum wage like it just raised my expectations and it made me realize. Wow, this this stuff that seems impossible. If we get organized and we fight for it, we can actually win Mezzo, an opportunity to learn more about the campaign in a conference that was coming up. The keynote speaker was Shamas Awad was the city councillor out in Seattle who had won the fifteen dollars minimum wage like art. I gotta get involved in this. Until that point Madison most of his time, working and kind of hanging out. But after hearing Shamas who want speak? You felt like there was a chance to get involved with something really matter. He thought to himself. Hey, look I'm single I don't have kids. What the Hell I'll move to Seattle and get involved with the campaign so when I got to Seattle Shamas was running for re election to the city council. This is this was her second reelection campaign and Amazon was coming hard against her. The reason why Amazon Shamas. One out of city council goes back to something that happened in two thousand eighteen, so new Amazon was a huge corporation but I really I started to see their political power. Amazon is just so emblematic of what's happening in Seattle. And everyone kind of understands Amazon's roll out here. Seattle is the headquarters of Amazon. Amazon has fifty thousand employees here a huge portion of its workforce I think it's something like a sixth of its total employees are in Seattle, but. The way that those jobs in the way that the wealth out here has been distributed has been incredibly uneven so. Tons of people who've been pushed out of the city economically evicted. There's a huge shortage. The the homelessness rate has gone up where now the the highest rate of homelessness in the country Shamas a want had run on all those issues in two thousand fifteen. So in two thousand eighteen, she decided to do something about it. Shawna, our city councillor. Introduced a bill in City Hall that would put a tax on the three percent wealthiest corporations in Seattle that would go towards funding affordable housing out here. and. And we call it the Tax Amazon Bill. The Tax Amazon campaign because Amazon it would affect the top three percent of employers. Given how much money Amazon is making. You might think they would be down with something like that. Right would make their brand look good. Make them look like they were helping the city. But. Amazon doesn't do things like that rather than agree to pay a very small tax on their profits. Amazon shutdown construction on one of their office buildings downtown, and refused to continue until the city council repealed this tax. And so they really just through all of their weight around Seattle. To get what they wanted from the city council. Face with this tough choice. The City Council did repeal the tax, and because that battle happened in twenty eighteen, the people working on Shamas, campaign and twenty, nineteen new that Amazon was going to be a problem. Met found out how much of a problem one morning in October I'm. I go to work. I'm on the truck looking through my news feed. And I see this news. That Amazon is spending a million and a half dollars in election. That's that's three or four weeks away when Matt News, he started feeling sick. He told the truck driver pullover and the trump. C met had moved to Seattle to work with this political campaign. But of course he needed to pay his bills, so we had applied for various jobs until he got a callback for one position. I don't think I even knew that. It was an Amazon job when I went down for the interview. Because it was a contractor right, and so the the actual employer was estes express lines, and it was trucking company. And then I went down for the interview and sat down in my manager's office and he was explaining this to me and he's like. Yeah, we deliver. Oversized Amazon packages. And that was the first time that I realized Oh. For Amazon. So when Matt found out, Amazon was spending a million dollars on a city council election to house the counselor. He moved to town to support. I E filled sick. Many felt something else I'm furious. They're using the money that me and my coworkers are making for them right because we're the ones that are making this these huge profits for Amazon and they're turning around and using that money to try to oust a politician who's fighting for our interests as workers right, they're. They're trying to oust a politician. WHO fought for the? Minimum wage, who's fighting for affordable housing? And so at that point I decided that I had to be public like I had to come out as an Amazon worker. Saying I'm opposed to what my company is doing in these elections, so met told everybody he worked for Amazon and he and other people who supported Shaw wants reelection got to work. But how do you fight when there's a million dollars against you, so it was five times more than anybody had ever spent on a Seattle election. We organized this fight back. We had this rally with other Amazon workers and with community members and other politicians other city councillors. We just got to work and redouble our efforts knocking on doors. Putting out flyers calling people on the phone. We had a flood of donations that came in from all around the country from Working People in Chicago and New York and Minneapolis saying. Hey, we don't like Amazon's doing. In your hometown, here's five bucks. Here's ten bucks. Here's fifty bucks to help out. Despite all bed inspiring work Shamas wants campaign knew that the odds were against them going into election night. The way that that Seattle's elections work it's all male, and and a lot of times, the more progressive voters, renters and working people tend to vote later. So on election night we were behind eight percent. But as those mail in ballots started coming in, we inched up and inched up and we won that election. By about four percent, and we actually won across the city where only one of the candidates that Amazon had backed in the election actually won. Their see so. We had a huge victory in that election. Seems to me. The story shows there's not any kind of heart distinction between community organizing in the broad sense. And political activism that focuses on elections definitely when I get involved with people fighting for things like a living wage or defunding our criminal punishment system, including at the local level, you inevitably see that local leadership and political representation is really a key part of the struggle, but organizing by workers to willpower within the corporations that they work for. That's absolutely essential to. Workplaces have become much less democratic over the last few decades. Unions have lost power and membership so folks are in a long term struggle to get some of that power back and to make the places we work more democratic. In so many other ways to people can and do find ways to get heard and apply pressure, and there seems to be growing urgency to do that. As the failures of our society and its leadership become more clear. The. Climate emergency are profound economic injustice guns on and on. But you know sometimes you do all of that stuff you sign petitions. Right? Chicks were GONNA campaigns and it still doesn't work. People are suffering from lack of housing suffering from lack of healthcare from oppressive policing. And at a certain point, something happens. It strikes a match between. Forty six year old George Floyd spent the last minutes of his life begging for one simple thing. Breath. The. People hit the streets. Anger boiled over after the killing George Floyd here in Minneapolis. His death has shined. A light on generations of systemic racism is complicated. Property gets destroyed or watching it. Go up in flames right now. I just wanted you to hear the sound of people cheering as the third precinct appears to be on fire at this time, sometimes people get hurt. It's not always clear. Who's doing what? But out of crisis and a sense of urgency, people respond. Loudly in real numbers. And they don't stop in small towns and big cities protest against police tactics and violence pressed on for another night. That applies pressure. Now, the protesters calls for change are being heard on Friday a virtual meeting. The city council voted to ban the use of neck restraints. They're also requiring officers who witness unauthorized use of force to report it from the scene and intervene. And physically well as the nation demands, racial justice, following George Floyd, Seth Virginia's Governor says it's time for the confederate statues and our capital to go. The protesters have asked for the police department to be defended. Do. You think that should happen I think our police department needs dramatic structural change and that we need a whole new way of doing public safety in our city. So John. This is it man? Yeah. We've come to the conclusion of season for. And I get it. There will be people saying. What you're going to stop now. Keep going for God's sake. Yeah, but with all due respect I think some folks who say that maybe don't know how much work goes into something like this. I mean the fact is this podcast isn't the only thing on my plate. Yours and we have to do other things for a while. But we'll be watching. What's going on speaking up in the coming months and social media? Before we go John Do you have any takeaways from the season. Yeah? I I think a couple of big picture things that I learned and that I. Hope would stick with folks. Going back more than a year ago, when I was just reading a bunch of history and thinking about how to approach this series. There was one realization that kinda knocked me on the head and really became a touchstone for us. And now it's kind of embarrassing to say that it felt new to me. Because at this point, it's like Duh, but I'm talking about a shift in my understanding of what the founders of this country were up to, and who they were those elite representatives of the British Empire who established colonies here. And reluctantly came to lead the American revolution. Long before they were you know revolutionaries yearning to breathe free as in our national mythology. They were colonial settlers. Who had come here to get land by taking it from native people through violence, if necessary and it was necessary. And they'd come to get rich in large part through the enslavement. People kidnapped from Africa. That was their project. Okay, that's not news, but once you understand that that project did not end didn't change course if anything accelerated after July seventeen, seventy six. And you then the Ark of that project, and that entitled Exploitive White Supremacist Mindset really right up to this day important ways. A lot of things become more clear. Yeah. So, that's one true and important takeaway you said to. Yeah the second one we also established in the early episodes, and then it. Kinda ran through the series, and that is this point about market economics and Democracy our culture tells us again and again that they're one and the same. Capitalism is one of the fundamental forms of freedom that we enjoy if not the fundamental form. But. Democracy and capitalism are not one and the same. And in fact, the framers themselves understood and said that those two things are intention with one another. If you want more capitalist investment and wealth? which may benefit quite a few people, but is definitely going to accrue mostly to the wealthy few the ownership class. If you want more of that. You're going to need to constrain democracy. And again once you look at our history and our reality today with that understanding in mind. It makes a lot of things. Make a whole lot of sense. So challenge how about you? What's the key lesson or two for you? Well one of the reasons that podcast like this are experiencing a resurgence at the same time. The people are in the street. Is Because I. Think people want real explanations of how we got here, right? Now current media is really great for that right. It's about speed and this relentless onslaught of content and breaking news. But if we're going to solve the problems that we need to solve, we need spaces for a different kind of thinking you know like a certain kind of critical thinking spaces, so whether we're talking about the Senate or talking about policing, we can't transform institutions without understanding them, and that means understanding their history. Right, and also for those of us who are involved in organizing, there's a lot of complicated questions about strategy and what's ethical. Starting to see now in places like Minneapolis and the pressure. It took to do that. Should cause us to really understand and have patience for how complicated the process is. So we need spaces for those kind of nuanced discussions, yeah, yeah, anything else. Well here's a final thought. For a lot of us who followed our season, and who are looking at what's going on in the world right now? It can really seem like we're up against so much entrenched power insurmountable odds. and. I just want everybody to know that I'm committed to coming physically into the house of each and every listener. For racial dialogues and maybe like a beer. I up. We have a lot of listeners. Okay, okay, all right. Let me. Try Give. Look I know we're up against a lot. But when I see the image of Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer. Yele in Kentucky close stones. I just feel like together. Man. All right all right take three. Seriously though. He's a rough times. This season a persistent theme has been that are institutions are working in favor of a minority of people. There are powerful wealthy minority, but there's still a minority. And I think that's important. Because there's so many scholars, organizers have pointed out. We make up those institutions. Ordinary. People want schools one healthcare. They run the infrastructure businesses grocery store workers public sector workers custodial workers. We make the country run because we are the majority. And wherever we come together whether it's in our unions at zoning or local government meetings at the voting booth, taking to the streets and radical protest or withholding, our labor and a general strike. When we refused to do the work of exploiting the most vulnerable and instead worked together to make sure that all of our systems take care of the most vulnerable. We are doing the real work of democracy. Good. Clean who. We believe in Free Talk This is a choral group from Bennett College a historically black women's college in Greensboro. North Carolina I recorded on at the annual moral march in Raleigh in two thousand nineteen. We're so grateful to you all for coming along with us this season. And for telling your friends about the show? The land that never has been yet was conceived and produced by me. John be went. With a whole lot of input and editing help from my collaborating conversationalist, Dr Chenjerai Kamenica. And from our script, editor Wonderful Loretta Williams in Los, Angeles, who made every episode better and clearer? Thanks Joe Augustine of Narrative Music or music consultant who worked with again this to provide a lot of great music you heard. Music by John, Eric Cada an Eric Nouveau. Other music by Lucas be win. Our theme song for the series. The underside of power is by Algiers. Big Love to the communications team at CDs who get the word out the episodes posted the website built and managed Liz. Phillips Whitney Baker Mara Guevarra. My bosses Lynn McKnight and CDs director Wesley Hogan. Our Pals at PR ex. You distribute the show. Seen on radio comes to you from CDs the Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University. Man

US Senate president Congress Amazon Supreme Court John Okay United States Donald Trump Michael Waldman America Seattle Brennan Center for Justice George Floyd Mitch McConnell Election Security Minneapolis Professor Levinson Robert Allen
NPR News: 02-17-2020 5PM ET

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04:39 min | 1 year ago

NPR News: 02-17-2020 5PM ET

"Live from NPR news in Washington. I'm Barbara Klein. More than three hundred American cruise ship passengers are back in the US after being quarantine for nearly two weeks in Japan because of the new corona virus outbreak most of them are also back in quarantine this time at military bases in California and Texas thirteen of them have tested positive for Cova nineteen and are being treated in Nebraska. Where Dr Michael Waldman says they appear to be happy to be on home ground. We were very tired after the long travel but their spirits were high. They're very grateful. The World Health Organization is now reporting nearly seventy one thousand cases of the virus in Virginia. A bill banning assault style weapons has been defeated. The state measure drew nationwide attention last month when thousands of gun advocates from around the country amassed in Richmond to oppose it. Npr's Braxton Booker reports. The bill would have been the sale of military style. Weapons in Virginia. It also would have eventually outlawed the possession of gun magazines holding more than twelve rounds and other firearm accessories like bump stocks and suppressors. But the bill never made it out of committee. That's because four state Senate Democrats joined the GOP minority to defeat it. Virginia Democrats led by Governor. Ralph Northam promised to enact sweeping changes to state gun laws after winning majorities in both chambers of the assembly last year following the vote the National Rifle Association tweeted quote. Thank you to our members and gun owners who fought to defeat this anti American legislation Braxton Booker. Npr News Nevada's Democratic Party. Says early voting turnout this weekend? For the state's upcoming caucuses with strong breeze. Zender of member station K. U. N. R. Reports. The party says just over half of the people who turned out on Saturday were first time caucus participants in a statement. Party officials say they are happy to see this number of energized voters on this President's Day holiday viewers sites open for early voting with all sites closed in some counties however most of them are expected to reopen Tuesday for the final day of Nevada's four day early voting period caucus day itself is next Saturday in twenty sixteen. The state's caucuses brought in about eighty four thousand people. This is the first year that Nevada is using early. Vote System so it's too soon to say how it may be affecting turnout for NPR news. I'm breeze zender. In Reno in storm ravaged Mississippi. The governor's warning hundreds of evacuees not to go home yet. After the Pearl River crested today major flooding in Jackson is expected to continue for days as more rain is forecast and Dama thirties released floodwaters. This is NPR. The world's richest man Amazon founder. Jeff bezos says he's GONNA spend ten billion dollars of his personal money to fight climate change in an instagram post today. The CEO says his new Bazo Earth Fund will start giving out grants this summer to scientists activists and nonprofit groups Amazon has a huge carbon footprint and its employees had been pressing for environmental responsibility SPACEX says it launched more than sixty satellites into orbit this morning. Npr's Jeff Brumfield reports. They're part of a new network by private space companies to provide broadband Internet to every point on earth. One of the Companies Falcon. Nine rockets carried the satellite into orbit where they spread out like a deck of cards. It's the fourth launched by SPACEX since November and brings the total to around three hundred of the new satellites arrival company. One web launched about thirty of its satellites earlier this month. Both companies say they will eventually operate networks with many hundreds of satellites critics. Worn all these new satellites could increase the risk of collisions and space debris the satellites are also visible from the ground creating problems for astronomers trying to take pictures of the night sky. Space X says it's committed to responsible management of space. It's equipped at satellites with Collision Avoidance Systems and is working with astronomers to minimize the impact on their observations. Jeff from feel. Npr News Washington. And I'm Barbara Klein. Npr News support.

Npr NPR Virginia Nevada Npr Braxton Booker Barbara Klein SPACEX Democratic Party Washington Dr Michael Waldman Jeff bezos Amazon Ralph Northam US Nebraska Richmond World Health Organization assault
WKPWP - Keller interviews "X-Pac" Sean Waltman: Early analysis of Shield as singles wrestlers forecasting their futures, more (6-20-14)

The Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast

2:56:30 hr | 2 years ago

WKPWP - Keller interviews "X-Pac" Sean Waltman: Early analysis of Shield as singles wrestlers forecasting their futures, more (6-20-14)

"Security fuels you. So when you're ready for fulfilling new career let your curiosity fuel that change Grand Canyon university's online degree programs and technology, make it easier for you to achieve your drink with flexible, scheduling and a supportive community. G C. You teaches you how to plan for innovation by applying that knowledge to today's most challenging problems, you're helping to build a better tomorrow. Find your purpose at GNC. Visit g c u dot EDU slash online. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one who fifty dollars a month to twenty two fifty credit applied, within two bills of cancelled earlier remain. Unbalanced doing limited basic after six thirty twenty eight thirty two dollars per month per line for five lines with auto pay data deprioritization, during your questions. Be maximum zeros restrictions apply. Every Sunday night. Catch wrestling night in America on PW torch. Daily cast dot com. Hosted by me PW towards columnist. Greg parks each week. I'll welcome co host from the torch family to discuss the big shows and pro wrestling taking your calls and emails, you can listen live most weeks, beginning at eight pm eastern on Sunday nights with a WWE or impacts pay per view. We go on the air at the conclusion of that pay per view, even listen live. But of course, the full show is available for download on demand. Anytime shortly after it airs visit p towards daily cast dot com and click the livestream linked to find the next scheduled live show link, search PW torch, and apple podcasts or your podcast app to subscribe wrestling night in America, every Sunday, TWA torch. Daily cast dot com. searching. For more great pro wrestling, enjoy me Jason Powell hosting flea weekly wrestling, boom podcast each week. You'll hear the latest news and analysis from me, and my team in pro wrestling dot net, along with other wrestling media members, plus DeVille wrestling boom hot gas beaches. Long-form interviews with notable names in the pro resume industry subscribing. I tune Stitcher downcast and all your favorite secondary apps or visit us directly at PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW dot com. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and in eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit a sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one fifty dollars a month after twenty to fifty credit applied within two bills of thoroughly remain. Unbalanced doing limited basic after six thirty twenty eight thirty two dollars per month per line for five lines with auto pay day to day organization during your speed maximum. Here's restrictions apply. By our T with caffeine from green tea leaves. It's delicious energizing and comes in three amazing flavors with zero sugar and four calories. It fit your life with its compact size in portability. It goes where you go to the campsite, the hiking trail, the beach without weighing you down five our T caffeine from green tea leaves. Release your natural side from the makers of five hour energy. For more information visit five hour energy dot com, try five our T today. Look for all three flavors by the cash. Register at your local holiday station store. Now PW torch chance freak her bring you the Wade Keller pro wrestling podcast. It's done for Wade's interview with one of pro wrestling's newsmakers. Welcome to the p w torch alive. Cast. I am Wade Keller editor and publisher of the pro wrestling torch weekly newsletter published weekly since nineteen eighty seven and also host of the POW torch, live cats last four and a half years here at POW torch. Live cast dot com. It is Friday, June twentieth two thousand fourteen and Friday means it's interview Friday and I am very pleased to welcome one of our favorites deaths here on the show since we started doing the interview Friday format a few years back, and that is Sean Waldman known. Also as X pock lightning kid one two, three kid and six Sean. Welcome back to the lead cast. You know, you have to loosen up to two tie. Now when I come on the show, right? Well, we are PG rated so. But the formalities yeah, we're just it's always, it's always great. We got cousin. I just opened up the inbox. We've got tons of emails from people wanting to ask you questions to some of them haven't gone through yet. So you I'm not kidding. You already popular guests on the show, and we always miss when too much time goes by between appearances and so much going on in wrestling so much going on in WWE and outside of it. But first things first, Sean, what's keeping you busy these days. You're, you're not on national television. But I honestly I don't know. You're not kidding, man. I got hurt the other night doing that. I'd go put rumble out there in LA, you know, it's kind of like a Royal rumbles town matches Jake Jake the snake was there. He did all the job the graph way run that was their Willie Mack want it? And he him as a need, and I took a really high backdrop over the top and mandate on my good news. Hyperextended the hell out of it. I thought I was like I like laying there on no done by this one that and like, I it's luckily, it's not the case. But I don't even know why why veered off onto that course. Oh, yeah. Cause I'm so damn busy. Man. I don't honestly I'm I'm, I'm busier than I was when I was working full-time, like prevents. Sometimes and you got what coming up tonight and this weekend. Oh, yeah. This weekend is I'm trying to I'll tell you, it's, it's in Providence, Rhode Island. We did it last year. It's like a comic con toy fair type of type of convention, and it's fun. It's fun guy. Scott's coming in right now, as a matter of fact, Gilbert, from cut city productions who's Br bringing who's Brad Scott, and I and he brings cab you know, he does doesn't wolf pack eating and stuff with us. He's picking Scott up and report right now and bringing up here. So I'll see him. I'll see him here shortly. Yeah. Man. And I'm just well sorry and, and, you know, I you know, when I when I tore my booty that was the last time, I think you probably saw me and I, I was a little bit overweight at the time, you know, and that's you know my God, it's a completely now. 'cause I I've been so active. So I'm in, I'm in really probably the some of the best shape, I've been in a long time to. So I might overhauled man, I feel just fantastic. Man. I got a good girl. I know that's Philadelphia. So a lot more centrally located now aid as far as I go. Hey reminded me of the Florida territory where you you're you go do your show your home every night. It's, it's really nice man. That don't think that kind of a claim and name recognition and being in demand. Without being on national TV speaks, a lot to, you know, the impression that you made and, and the reputation that you have at this point in your career and where it's taking, you think where do you put the indie scene right now in terms of its its health, you've been part of it off and on your entire career. Where do you think the Indian rings right now? Not too bad right now. The ones guys are the ones that go out there and do a good job promoting. I think are experiencing, you know, experiencing some, you know, some decent level of success, especially on the east coast. I mean, I'm you know, most shows, I do have thousands of people at least, you know, I teamed with Cody, who's got son, Scott was on the floor. And you know we worked with off a junior and Lloyd, like the I can't have what they called some Olin. Just something sons of central some Ella. Sorry, tell us. But you know there are places there's, like fifteen hundred thousand people in there. You know. I mean it's just it's I think it's good. You know, at least the ones that I've been on how was Indy wrestling and dealing with indie promoters. And the indie crowd. Owed different than it was five ten and heck going back, twenty five years for you. Well, yeah. You know, you, you, you have you remember a few years back. It was that whole you eft up you up if every somebody like screwed a spot you listen to the show pretty much. I think pretty people are pretty much over that. Now there's not a whole there's the you know, the fans even if they like it, he'll they might cheer him, but they'll booed her in the mat like they're they get with the program. A lot more. Now, you know, they're not trying to be, you know, they're not trying to, you know, hey look, you know how we're cool. We're gonna have chair of the heels. I mean he's still get that element. But it's a lot smaller now like the truth through vessel. Anne fans on real are really smart smart marks, as they like to call. You know, I'll say I'm more because I'm one to you know they, they they. Want the show to be good. So they go along with it, there par- their part of their, their extras their extras in the film. So they're gonna they're gonna want them to be good. Right. Exactly. And I even said that, like when dole Sigler with getting cheered by fans who are like you know, this is year year and a half two years ago. And I'm like, when you cheer delta, he'll, you're telling management, he sucks at his job. The fun you should be having if you really like somebody, and they're doing a good job in their character. If his character is a, he'll you are doing that wrestler, a huge favor by booing them. Yeah. Heading, you know, you know, this is awesome. Well, they're trying to get heel heat because that's, that's a he'll failing. No. If if you know if there's people that just insisted that's what they like to do. And you know there are promotions that cater to that. And that's good. That's all fine and dandy to, you know to each their own. There's you know, there's Buki promotions that could that, you know, cater to different Bill. It's his brass wrestling, you know industry so it's all good. It's like car. Yup. I mean hell that's that's some pretty out there stuff sometimes man. But I think the key, the key that you say is the crowd is you're noticing crowd that come around to saying, you know what we're going to just get into the show and and act like fans of the story that's being told in the ring into doing the hey, look at me, I'm smarter than everybody. And I'm gonna try to dictate the direction of the show. And part of that, Sean, I blame on WWE and, you know, I still stands out John Johnson stand in the ring going, we're here to entertain you. We're here to entertain you. I hope we entertained, you. Like, I remember the crusher ever standing in the ring when I was, you know, when he was eight. Saying, hey, I hope I entertained, you what crusher did is he said, I'm here to kick the ass of the he'll in your here to cheer me up. And without stay right? No, no. That's like you say that the hall of fame ceremony or you know, you know, mainstream media interview or something along those lines, not from, you know, from start to finish up the, of the show, nothing in, in between the start and finish the show sometime. They go on their time to go out there. Nothing should break pets, you know. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. You and I are in sync on that. I wanted to note that the POW torch live cast is brought to you pro wrestling torch. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and in eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit a sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one who fifty dollars a month after twenty two fifty credit applied within two bills, cancel remain unbalanced doing limited basic after six thirty twenty eight thirty two dollars per month per line for lines with auto-pay day to organization during your questions. Be maximum. Restrictions apply. By our T with caffeine from green tea leaves. It's delicious energizing and comes in three amazing flavors with zero sugar and four calories. It fits your life with its convex size in portability. It goes where you go to the campsite, the hiking trail the beach without weighing you down by our teen caffeine from green tea leaves. Release your natural side from the makers of five hour energy. For more information visit by our energy dot com. Try five our T today. Look for five our T at your local circle k store. Sean. Why don't we dive into the phone, the phone call here and see what some of our callers have to say before I dive into Email and hit on your sure. Let's. Excellent. Let's begin with area code. Let's see seven three two. I believe this is the member Scott calling Scott confirming to you and tell us what city you're calling from hey. I'm James bird, New Jersey. Hey, sean. Hey, wait. How are you doing? Great man. Great. Thanks for calling. So on, I've been joins your career back since the days of global and reasonably right about in the torch about great. Your work was Abby is you ever since? Pardon me, sir. I have enjoyed watching you since you're global wrestling in the early nine oh man. Even bed. Yeah. You're putting on yourself there and hell had. Absolutely. I remember ways writing in the proactively towards newsletter about how wonderful your matches were back like early ninety one and stuff. I say something. Yes. I really know they're really helped me a lot as far as getting the word out there back at a time, when there was no internet, an instant access to information like there is now. So I mean that was that was like instrumental and me getting the breaks that I got. So that's, that's, that's why Wade, Kentucky in the coming on here for an hour and a half or two or three hours. Friday night. I call her. Enjoy doing question before I was doing the question. Yeah. I wonder what it was like in the summer of in the summer of ninety six as your weight and the golden WCW watching the end of you all spoiled and it just it must've been amazing. The patient you felt as you were heading in and heading into the hottest angle. I think maybe in history or business. And I just wonder what your experience was like. And I just would like to hear how it was, and I appreciate everything way. Thanks again. For all your hard work. Thank you. Got your membership very very much. Well, I used to I remember very vividly just. Okay. You know, like all start with going from, you know, being an independent wrestler to all of a sudden, you know, doing the one-two-three kid angle and being on, you know, TV around the world. And what that was like, what's was kind of. A lot to take in, you know, had such a young age that van, you know. Once I saw the end of your old thing, you know, I actually that's supposed to be the first one to go except for my contract rolled over. But. One side became part of that. My life changed so much. I mean, if I couldn't go somewhere before, once that happened, I could not go anywhere without being Bob. And I remember telling him how one time. Thank you anywhere. And then like I looked at them, and I'm like. I'm telling this to haul, you know what I mean like he's looking at me. And he's trying not to be, you know, he sits nice guy like he don't wanna, you know, look at me like Detroit and tell me, you know, but, but I just I vividly remember that. And then man, honestly, nothing compared is for me personally to the DAX stuff. Once we started getting that rocking and rolling. And what was, you know with Steve with Steve Austin at the helm, and then and then rock getting, you know, getting so hot? It was just it was amazing man. It was absolutely amazing. That's why I don't need to be on TV. That's why I don't need to be on TV anywhere. People still like I mean, people can't wait. Yeah, I got like kids, how the hell do they know who I am? You know, they're watching the WWF network their their, their parents are, are, you know, passing on onto them, and it's so cool. It's so damn cool. So I'm finished with my roots. You can talk now. Let's go, let's go to another call here and keep keep the phone calls real. And if I can get the switchboard to govern here. Let's go next to air, co dot two seven two seven oh, please state your name, and where you're calling from. John woman, please turn down your radio two seven oh or background noise turnoff from down your car. Are you there? I welcome back to two seven. Oh, he's got his hands full babysitting. Hey, I can relate. You know, I mean I I I'm a father I, I know what. That's like hopefully, I can hopefully get that didn't care of, and we can go back to back. So let's go next to four one five four one five, we stage name, and where you're calling from. Date. I'm calling from San Francisco, California. I actually just tweeted Sean not too long ago thanking him for everything that he's, you know, done in his career and how. Uh. So where? Yep. I lady I so I thank you know, I mean really. Thank you. It's, it's, it's I mean, the pleasures online really things. I missed you in San Diego and Julie says, hi she was there. But I still made it. I was there. Yeah. So, yeah. That was great. So are you miss San Diego? It was it was a really good time out there way, we had a it was basically three days at this Harrah's resort. Southern california. You know, there was tons of guys like you know software there, you know, I think Goldberg was there a bunch of guys and then Tommy had out house hardcore show and I team team Ricky and even got me the dance crying out loud. Anyway. Sorry question. Yeah. So my question for for you is you, you were a part of two of some of the major factions within wrestling. And, you know, I I'm on Twitter a lot, and I don't know if the generation of the day truly understands the point affection, but. Today. What would you say? It would take to create a strong faction in the WWE like we had with, you know, the ex we had with. Four horsemen 'cause, you know, I don't know for me personally, it's kinda lacking and like. Like the first the first and most important thing is depth a depth the talent on your Auster. Because it was hard. It was pulling teeth to hear Vince. So let us do anything has a faction like, you know, like, and we would use the four horsemen as, as simple, you know, when we would lobby at defense and when, you know, and he just did not want to put all that money and two one act, you know, and, you know, he was looking at it like and just like he didn't wanna put like his to headline guys, turn them into a tag team. Because like you know, he wanted to spell out, you know, spread out the talent to up and card, and that, but that was also a big part of that was because we, we didn't have a depth of talent that the people really that, that had emotional that had emotional equity with the people. Basically. So that's what's gonna take. You gotta have, you know, like it's, it's, it's, it's it was really cool to see the shield over because they were basically unknowns. And they came in, you know, they're not faction there trio. You know, I mean I don't want to split hairs here, you know, what constitutes faction, and what does it but, you know, it was great to see those guys get over. They got over on, you know, basically hard work. Thank you for listening to the way, Keller pro wrestling podcast, be sure to subscribe, also, if you haven't yet subscribed to the white Keller pro wrestling Poche shows this show, the podcast tap are blue logo. The weight, Keller pro wrestling coach shows have read logo. Just search Wade Keller and apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and clicks, it's to the red logo. And you can download our post raw and post back down shows, I'm joined by co host to add a different perspective to the analysis for the show where we talked to live callers on correspondence, who are in the building, who tell us what did not air on TV, and we also answer mail bay questions. Though shows are available for download just a few hours after Ron smackdown and every Monday and Tuesday night. So there's a faster and around to get your fixed with analysis of WWE's, like chips. So check it out. That's the weight Keller pro wrestling Poche. Oh. Just search wave Keller. He can also stream the show live at Wade Keller Poche show dot com about five minutes after raw and smackdown air and coming this fall, we'll have an Paul elite wrestling Poche. Oh. So stay tuned for that. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one fifty a to twenty two fifty my credit applied within two bills, thoroughly remain unbalanced doing. Limited base. Six thirty twenty eight thirty two dollars per month per line for five lines. With auto pay day to his during your maximum restrictions apply. Get to old baby. Today, all, t's all shorts and all dresses are on sale now for fifty percent off. That's right. Get fifty percent off all tees. Fifty percent off all shorts and fifty percent off all dresses. Get the styles you want most right now with shorts from destroyed bucks for adults eight bucks for kids tease started to seven bucks for adults six bucks for kids. Don't miss out. Hurry into old navy and old navy dot com. Valid six nineteen six twenty six excludes in store clearance, active licensed men's packaged flag styles. Is that your name? I'm trying to. Yeah. Yeah. Do you consider the faction or do you think that, that they don't count? I'm kind of curious. Well, I've been. A fan of wrestling over twenty years. Then able to as a little kid go to the cow palace. So for me, like I'm Shawn said I their trio to me. Affection. You know, I have my own ideals of faction and in pretty short millions of wrestling fans also have different opinions. So I was just wondering if you consider the shield of faction didn't consider them, good faction, or you just think affectionate. It'd be like four more guys. 'cause I just kind of curious 'cause I people. Mr. Rick flair says there's a difference between a faction an stable, like general Skandar Akbar, had a stable and was all separate individual guys that he managed and they might team together whatever but they always still in the vigil. See, like we were a faction we are together. You know, we, we did everything together, you know, we party together, we went to the gym together. You know. I mean it was. You know you know what I mean? Yeah. And that, that came from Rick flair when I was watching, you know, one of the legends of wrestling episodes, and I made all the sense in the world, you know, people are some people are going. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's four or more people. Well, I you know, when they had the top ten greatest factions the free birds were on there. And there's there were most of the time really only three of them. Except for you know, I guess Jimmy Garvin. So I guess, maybe. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I like that distinct that distinguishing between a faction and a stable, you know, 'cause yeah, yeah. To me a stable is like a manager who hires different guys. You know, Bobby Heenan family, too. You know, it was more of a stable faction is yeah, there's a group of, of not necessarily equals, but a group of near equals, who are all choosing to be together. They're not just hired as individuals to be part of sure underneath a manager. So, yeah, I, I like that distinction. Yeah. And then there might be a leader. But you know it's not like you know, guys we're in, you know, I drive like in general, you know. Uniform, it's just it's kinda just unspoken, the people really kinda decide those type of things when it comes to factions I. Yeah. Are Jada anything else go? Thank you, welcome now. That's it for sure. You're welcome. Thank. Yep. Like to remind people that if you are new to the POW torchlight, casts that we are all and other big TV events. So anyway. So many reasons go VIP check out full details on pricing at PW torch dot com slash kgo. VIP. Let's go back to the phone lines now. And let's bring up, Eric four one five four one five, thanks for holding please state your name, and where you're calling from four one five year online. Baby must still be crime. All right. Going once why four once. Our phone is, by the way, six four six seven two one nine eight eight that's six four six seven two one nine eight two eight. You can find our show at POW towards live cast dot com and that also includes the phone number and the ourselves fee to subscribe to tunes or on your phone move to the next caller on hold. We'll try three one nine next three one nine please state your name and where you're calling from. His Andrew from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Andrew, thanks for calling. What do we got for today? All right. You know, that's homeless NWF, pay per view. Oh, that's right. Rapids today. Good. Man. I was hard for me. Hey, I oh my God. Is that on my end? No, no, no, no. It's okay. That's I'm the one hard of hearing from all the years of attack Knicks all the chair, the pyrotechnics, not plugging my years like everybody else did. But. I've been to like many I meant into like many wrestling events and it's like you know, on like on TV. It doesn't sound a lot. But when you're there, in person, it's like boom, but yeah, my question is a few years ago, I listened to shoot interview with Justin credible. And he said that you told him that triple h told you that the Montreal screw job was a work is that is there any? Oh, absolutely. No. He's not say that he just tweeted that he's listening to the show. So if he wants to call incorrect. I practice. Wow. I that was my theory. That was my theory. See hunter hundred hundred kept, you know, this is why like I would says hundred with a secret over anybody because he kept that he got hush and, and denied the night, even after I told him John said something to me about it. Like, Sean, I was in the ring with Sean one time just messing around before the before the TV when time and somehow the subject came up. And and, you know, he he told me they were, you know, the, you know that they were all in on it, but as far as being a work like I mean now that was my theory. That was my life conspiracy theory, because I know Brett so. Oh, and I know like he's. You know, he's sharp. I and I even asked. But like when I. Funds and I told him that I said, man, it's hard for me to believe. You didn't see that come in the mile away, especially when they ask you had you put your you know, your here on them finish you know submission. Yeah. Yeah. You know. And he goes, I. Well, I was he's he said, I'm gonna have your Brett's answer. He said, yeah. He goes, but Earl Earl swore to me. He promised me, and so, like, but to me, I like I was like, man. What if like that work was on everybody else, and then brat were really the ones they're not and guys, you know, because really, it would have been great way to like, you know, to lead the company, a, martyr and in a way, getting out of doing a job and all the all the, the attention that I get what you know, that it garnered? That was. I always thought that 'cause I thought Brett always made, you know, a real big thing out of it. And I get the sense of betrayal. You know, hey, we've been in business as long how could you do to me? But the thing that I never understood about library was upset is everybody New Britain loose. He lost the title without losing to Shawn Mike, nobody offers finish. So I never brought was upset because it was the best out. He could have he lost her title without losing to Shawn Michaels, because nobody believed that he actually lost it. It is almost the perfect scenario for Brennan departments of all time, greatest double double time after a long day of being pulled in every direction. The last thing anyone wants to think about is what's for dinner. That's where Schwantz can help with a variety of real food. Choices frozen to lock and freshness from ready made meals premium meats inside issues to vegetables, ice cream, and more swans foods go from freezer to table in minutes. Not hours so you can pull off a delicious meal in no. No time at all or delivered done, that's homemade easy to help simplify mealtime. Visit Schwantz dot com. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month per line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one who fifty dollars a month after twenty to fifty credit applied within two bills, cancel early remain unbalanced doing basic after six thirty twenty eight thirty dollars per month per line pipelines without a pay day to organization during your speed maximums. Here's restrictions apply. And I got a gone, we're going to say that it was all not a work, but I do believe it's not a work. But if Sean never got hurt a win. Never died and Goldberg never ended his career. Do you think after his two years in WCW he'd come back? Yes. He, he never wanted to go there in the first place, the son of keep home. He always told me always, I don't ever want to go anywhere else. I wanna I wanna end my career here and I want my legacy to be a as WWF guy, you know, and he was very, very, very concerned about that. And that legacy hurt it hurt a whole lot there. Yeah. Yeah. And it was it was tough financial times for Vince McMahon. And, and there was a big money contract waiting for bread. But yeah, threats that numerous times in his book and elsewhere when he walked through those into that. I w w that it just felt he just knew that would never feel like doing. To me. Yeah. It's great talking to you, too, man. Thank you. PJ just incredible. Did just post on Twitter. I don't think XBox told me it was a work. It was just my cynical belief. So he just wonder by that on smart. Yari. You know, I mean, I don't think I'm the only one I I don't think I'm necessarily the only one that thought of that. I just think I'm the only one that was like willing to actually ask Brett and, you know, question publicly maybe you think Shawn Michaels would would be up one. Do you think Michael shares your opinion that there's a possibility? Brett invincible out the best double double of all time never talked to him about, okay. Okay. Never talked to him about it to be honest with you. Interesting. All right. Let's go to our next call. I've got member Larry from Atlanta on hold Larry just confirmed this view and go ahead, Sean. Hey, cool, thanks away. Depreciate it good to talk to you, both, you know, in just a couple of questions on the live cast for for Sean. You know, you mentioned how, you know Wade was really important in boosting your career kind of in the way when you were wrestling in Minnesota. Kinda getting your start. I guess, I wanted to know you know, among sort of the reputable, newsletters, the torch in the observer. And that kind of thing I'm kind of wondering what your perspective is on. Like, how much do you, do you feel at least in your experience, you know, especially like in the nineties? How much do you feel is accurate that shows up in the torch? And I know that you take care to be accurate as possible, so no, not at all. Not like I just I just want. Yeah. Good issue. I don't accurate. Just call on the mainstream media. All right, for the record. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So this sorta kinda like tied up there. What do you think are sort of the things that, you know, good newsletters, like wait. And then, like a observers like that. We'll kind of details. Do you feel often maybe aren't accurate, not out of malice or anything? But because maybe you know, you're getting maybe a second hand or you know, third hand account of stuff that was going on in the business. Like, did you read stuff about yourself and go like not even what happened or how did that get up? Even though because still on Joan them. So, you know, I. Just to be honest. You know, but. I, here's here's the thing it was I felt like from considering I from my vantage point, I had a hell of vantage, point, it was about as accurate as you could get considering some sources are going to, you know, you know, safe and sometimes to advance, you know, their agenda and, you know, you know, sometimes we now you know, he'll somebody before full crab. Think about doing this as long as I have and easing my way into it starting at age sixteen and not having initially based on inside information as the core of it, it, it, it's as I grew into it and added more behind the scenes info I learn who to trust and who not to. Because if I got info that was bad and, and published it, I, I would hear from somebody within that week saying, wait. I don't know where you got that. But I don't like to see crap in the newsletter. You gotta run a correction on this and run a correction. I would I would confront that source. It's so quick and easy to weed out people giving you bad info, because there's so many people who don't let bad info, stay out there, and it's I've had to run very few corrections over the years on stuff. But I would also an obviously, this is the main way to weed through it is if somebody gives me info over the past twenty six and a half years. I've done this and I am at all suspicious of it. I go to Greeley exactly. And granted there are times. We're just somebody, I trust implicitly. There's not an agenda based item. They're just answering question. I asked him about something, and you don't get a second source, something when there's just a track record and it's just a piece of info, like, hey, was that guy backstage, this week or was he out sick? I don't need to confer, I trust. Who's telling me, I don't need to double check that, but on controversial stuff. If it's anything that, that is at all to ruffle feathers. Or, or, you know, be this big shocking portrayal of something behind the scenes. You always go for that second source, and always get back up info and, and you learn quickly. And that's where, you know, the torch stands test, the time when you look at the back issues and you're eating the news wire, and then, also you have somebody on the, the life cast, and they tell the same story that I reported fifteen years ago and, and, you know, some details I, but they don't vice versa, but it's, it's nice John after all these years to have the newsletters stand the test of time and to have the way things were protrayed be backed up by books that are being written on record by wrestlers interviews and shootout. Oh, good. Sean, though. Larry, what were you gonna say? Friends and, and management, they, they know that I that I talked to Wade, they've, but the thing is a lot of things I didn't tell right you know, if, if, if it was, like, you know, if something wasn't, you know, you know what should stay in the car and what shouldn't, and there's a lot of things a lot of things. Wade coulda scoop every same goal of their publication is and he didn't because he didn't. He didn't want to blow my to you know to hurt. Hurt me, you know, can hurt me, and, and he said, on some information, so times that other people reported there. Call you up and say is this. True. And you I can hear you laughing right now going, oh, you heard that, like, you know. You would never told me stuff that I reported, and you're like how did you hear that? You know what I I wasn't going to tell you that. And granted, I sort of took that as confirmation at that point. But there are things you would never volunteer to me that I would hear otherwise. And, and, you know, that's how it was happening because I know you, I didn't wanna put our friendship and your comfort. I didn't wanna take your comfort zone because I knew what it was. And you were good about if I if I had heard something else, just needed. An trustworthy you helped me stay accurate. But yeah, you're right. Very negative. Yeah I'm not only one away. There's a ton of guys that walk through tons of then big stars to let me tell you. So, you know if used us to, you know, to give like. Like I want to be there. I want it's especially if it's coming from the torch or the observer, there's something that people actually, you know, they have credits credibility, so you know tons of credibility. So so, you know, I want what's what's written about me to be true. And because that's like, we, that's what we have as I written written history of our industry. You know, when we go back, we look back at the industry. That's these publications are going to be what we're gonna look in kind of like the newspapers, you know, to go back in history. Hey, you are you ready got packed grab your ten here jump in? We're going on an adventure and AirAsia there's so much Steve so much to experience at DC you at ventures never too far away, offering over two hundred academic programs at the Christian worldview and nestled in the heart of Phoenix, you can earn your degree in fewer than four years. Explore everything AirAsia has to offer find your purpose at G C, you private Christian affordable. Visit issue dot EDU slash as road trip to old navy Saturday and Sunday only all the actives on sale for fifty percent off. Get all your family's favorite, mesh tease. Go, dry shorts and active styles for fifty percent off Saturday and Sunday. Only at old navy and old navy dot com. Valid six twenty two to six twenty three excludes in store clearance. Go on that. And. But. What is it a now kinda more on the and I don't know Sean, like how much you get to sort of have free time to like, check out say, like torch audio content, like the Bruce, missile audio or anything like that, when you hear like, yeah. So, but, you know, like when, when you can't hear some of that stuff or, you know, stuff like this live cast where callers talking and get weighed response and stuff like that. How do you agree as far as, like Wade, editorial on a view? Or maybe like Bruce Mitchell when they kind of go, like, okay, I think understand how triple ages thinking about Daniel Bryant, or you know, it could be anything less contemporary to over the years, but just like, do you feel like they have the right you know, the right point of view on how they're thinking on handling internal stuff that goes on. Okay. A lot of times, there's no right or wrong. You know, when it comes a lot of things. That's that's why we're talking about to'real. I as far as whether I agree or disagree every now and again, you know, and I we we'll disagree on some things, you know, and, and case in point being how they were using Daniel Bryan, several months back, you know, I thought we had one of our bigger disagreements over over that Wade. When you say disagreement on what you mean is at first resistant to agreeing with me, but eventually you do. I, I think you would have to that everything ended up turning out three good. Brian weighed I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't think it'll be no that he got hurt. But I mean he he won Russell. He was in the main event wrestling want any for the people on that kind of what's going on now. Okay. Well, yeah. I, I don't I don't think somebody who I don't think stripping, somebody lead baby face of a championship. And then having basically be twelve minutes feature explaining how you were right all along about the guy and how he wasn't able to be a top guy, and they don't give that baby. Face a chance to address the fans or or or or you don't even have the lead announcer. Michael Kohler, whomever like saying, this is ES canes, the guy who attacked him in hurt his neck, and why doesn't somebody speak through our to Stephanie and hunter and make the point storyline wise that Daniel Bryan could hack it if he didn't. Send Kane after need in tombstone him. Three times on. Okay, I'm sorry. My point is that's been happening all along the only reason things turned out. Okay. For Brian, it's Cassiem punk with and Batista, the fans rejected Batista, and they were backed into a corner, and they've been having their nose plug the whole way. So I just I don't think the fact that they got back to into a corner and the fans relentlessly stuck behind, Brian the whole way, that, that makes me any less correct about the fact that they've been looking for any excuse to try to an escape hatch from feeling forced into pushing a guy that they genuinely don't believe in. Well, some of that we're going to have to talk about that in private. But, you know me little bit as disadvantage airway because I haven't been able to keep up with the what the product like I should have been so busy lately. So you kind of I can't really retort what you just said, you know, but I just know that when somebody is in the main event wrestlemainia that means pretty damn good, regardless of how happen, you know, the people got what they wanted. What's, what's great? Is it right there? It was a great feel good moment. Yeah. Okay. With your though. I agree with you. Like, you know there's all the Batiste at, and you know that not working out. But hey. You know, everybody would like to say that what they like, is what everybody else likes you know, sometimes, you know, and when you have people weighed when you have people that are just telling you what you wanna hear his kinda hard, you know, to know what he had it, man. And that's what and that's what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. Fan public. I already have. Yeah. Well, get to jobs, so they just go. They don't they never actually get their real opinion. No, that's, that's such a problem for so many people in power AMI. And it's just part of it is, you know, when you're in a position of power, you got all this stuff coming at you about all this pressure. And you're just trying to try to keep the. It's like a politician. That's worried about reelection so they don't do the right thing. Yep. Larry I'll I'll have my two cents, and Sean, you can agree, disagree that I mean, there's, there's time we're Sean, and I are don't talk for a while, and then get on the phone and it's just we're, we're finishing each other senses about what we think about what's going on. And you know, this over decades, and then there's times like you just heard where, you know, either Sean has ended manage over me because he knows something behind the scenes, or I haven't advantage over him because my job is to watch all the TV shows every week for twenty six years and Shawn's isn't. And so sometimes we help each other see things different way. Oftentimes at the exact same time he'd be like, oh, I didn't see that segment. Right. And look at it that way. But here's some information that might have you look at it through a different lens. And then he might say, you know, there's, there's reasons this guy's getting pushed which will come out later and it turns out, you know, there's, you know, I it's clear that he's either going in for surgery or he's got a massive drug problem or you know, comes out later that he was he was drugging girls drinks and raping them. And, and management was just, you know heard some rumors and we're trying to escape from pushing. Whatever the story is, sometimes it helps to have that kind of insight into why things are happening that I don't have the advantage. During safely, I can tell you I, I can say this with you. There was there was Bush concern that if this happened this happened with Ray with Ramos stereo, and they put the world title on him. I their reaction from the crowd did chains. A portion of the crowds gonna turn on a little bit because he was no longer the underdog. So they were they there was legitimate concern that if they pushed Brian to too much like that that and my backfire and I've seen it happen. I'm rich band hosted the deep. Dive with rich man, a weekly part of the pita torch daily Kathleen appears search torch, torture apple podcast for your podcast inscribed every Saturday at six pm eastern. I guess for an hour and anything in the world of wrestling, or wrestling related wanna hear about the influence of the store figures like big cat or any last. We got you wanna hear about how crazy marine movies got. We are on it. No topic is too big too, small. So if you want to dive in with call in live, or lifting on demand, and see being tired PW towards daily cast schedule at PW towards fairly cats. No, an ad from dad. All right. Save money on car insurance when you bundle home and auto with progressive guys. What is this? Wow. Where did you get this? I'm talking to you with the hair. Yeah. Where did you get this good stuff, solid? That's not veneer that solid stuff. Progressive can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurance. Discounts not available in all states or situations. Get to old navy today. All t's all shorts and dresses are on sale now for fifty percent off. That's right. Get fifty percent off all tees. Fifty percent off all shorts and fifty percent off all dresses. Get the styles you want most right now with shorts from just twelve bucks for adults eight bucks for kids tease started to seven bucks for adults six bucks for kids. Don't miss out. Hurry into old navy and old navy dot com. Valid six team to six twenty six excludes in store clearance, active licensed men's packaged flag styles. Good. Half hour about this one. Sure, it's, it's I mean, it's, it's a fascinating topic. We'll be talking about it for years. Daniel Bryan pushing and, you know the everything about it. It's fascinating topic for the last year, actually Roman reigns. Sean. I you're not seeing a ton. You're not seeing every show and all the product but Roman reigns, especially kind of the chosen one. I, I compare them to number one draft pick in the NBA NFL. Everybody's looking at him. He's he he runs. The fifty yard dash runs. Dash she answers, all the all the all the test questions correctly that teams give he's got the highest leap. He's got the, the best grades and the best attitude and all everything everything you can chart. He's he is as sure of bed, as they have. Let me assure bet. But he's as a bed, as they have. But you don't know. When he was sitting there collecting dust, and I've seen view. Wow. And so what, what is it about him that brings him above everybody else? And it's just a good option among not many other good options or is he one of the best up and coming potential top guys you've seen. What I be walked in the fence. I set a little of both. No, no. I think that's my opinion. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Both well, we need to right now and is without him changing his personality altogether. We need to see him open up a little bit inshore some versatile somewhere personality. I can let hang in, like the people in a little bit more man. You know, it's time to start to start doing that, though. But, you know, you can't just all of a sudden said, the outward almost you just can't all of a sudden start coming on slapping, hands on the way the rain. Brought him up because you talked about Daniel Bryan and how soon as he wins the title. Some people start in it happens. So you know, it's like everybody's favorite quarterback is a backup quarterback on their team because he hasn't interception yet this year. But as soon as he gets in there, the scrutiny turns up, and I and I get that at, and then that's there and I have a whole conversation about right about that. But we almost starting to see Roman reigns. Like we get called on the show, where people like, you know, I just I've worried about Daniel, or I'm sorry, I'm worried about Roman reigns being chosen one. I'm worried that, that he's going to be just pet that he's going to be coddled and that the fans will reject them because they're gonna perceive that he's the choice of management's, one of the things that made Brian popular was the idea that the fans chose him a year ago when he was having a great hotcakes with Kane against the shield the crowd was h it forum last summer. And that's what led to the summer Slimane event with Roman reigns. You the shield had that groundswell, but you do kind of it's gotta be tougher hundred. Invents to chew somebody have word out that he's the chosen one but have the fans not resent him because he's the corporate choice. He's the new John seena that to me is one of his biggest challenges. Agree. I think that. Maybe things that such a, you know, they think so much faster now like it would've been, like, say, twenty years ago, it would have been a lot more gradual, turn, like, you know, when it comes when it comes to Rome, and but, you know, I felt a little bit too that. I especially when, when rall turned. Wow, man. That was that was kinda quick. You know, it was just it was. But then again, I haven't been really following shows so maybe it wasn't, you know, if you're watching if you're watching the up the, the weekly episodes, but I think you're, I think you're each episode should be able to stand on its own as well. In case people aren't tuning and every week. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you want to feel they missed out on something tuned tuned away 'cause you want them to watch every week. But you birth Mitchell talks about comic books having become so reliant on twenty thirty years of back story that you can't get into them now and understand anything that's going on much of anything that's going on. 'cause you'd have to catch up on twenty thirty years of back issues. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. But you're back to Rome. Like that scream guy thing can be said about, whoever the LA hito is that's chosen long and Spanish, but there's actually a guy called LA hito in Mexico, but it's not. It's always going to happen, no matter who it is. And no matter how Grady is well. I wonder a little bit about if that's the case, why is that what is being focused on with Daniel Bryan, when that's going to happen to anyone? And that would be my argument. Daniel Brian is that people who just everybody looked at not everybody. A lot of people power looked at Danny. Brian and said, I don't understand why over this, obviously can't last it must just be like chant. Yes, I don't see what other people see them. So all the all the things that all the reasons that are that we overlook when it came to pushing every other top guy that we were behind, whether it's Johnson or triple, or Steve Austin, the rock, or ho Cogan, or ultimate warrior, when they gave him a mega push or sit or lex Luger, whomever, all the things who, who fit the action figures six foot four dollar image. We had the same thing applied all of them as soon as they get to the top, there's going to be fans who rejected, but with Daniel Bryan, all those things they overlooked for guys who were over six feet tall. They weld on and focused on and made it almost, I would argue a self-fulfilling prophecy, in the way that they talked about, in portrayed them and that. That's so you know when you say well Roman reigns offense might rebel against him because he's a chosen one that's going to happen to anybody including Brian when the chase is about. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's what happened to, to re to the stereo his. Well. Like that's why I said that because that was the example that was that was used when when when I was talking. So it's all about it. You know. Yeah. It's inter-. I mean, that's how I mean you know, I just in case he doesn't get the memo's type I let him know what like the people are saying, you know. Yeah. Yeah app. That's very cool. All right. I you know, I, I went up and attention didn't ask Larry, if he was done, or I want to give appropriate by Larry. Do you have anything or? Have you wanna tell us? Larry. Okay. I think Larry's moved on to other things. So I think talking to somebody else. All right. Well, let's let's, let's go. How much you got another half hour for shot or, or give or take? I know you're feeling. And unless somebody calls me and tells me to go somewhere. Do do our thing man. Good. All right. Well, then let's take some more phone calls. If your time with super limited, I moved to the show and hit on. Question for me. No. Now you started selling like. Part time. I got much on to deal with that. I was I Scott doing, by the way you stay in touch. Yeah. Did you say? Doing through man. You know, I mean you know, there was there was a little bump in the road, I guess. But like when I when, when I saw, and when we were together, and baby look great. Yeah, that's good to hear. Well, the Wade Keller progressing Poche shows and wake Keller proper podcasts. And PW torch daily casts are all ad-supported free programs. You can make the ads and plugs, go away and went to be great to listen to the straight through without ads and plug. You can become a VIP member unlock access to thirty plus years of archives podcast, retro radio shows and over fifteen hundred back issues of the purpose and cords newsletter. Dating back to the late nineteen eighties and get our new podcast every single day at Frey and plug free. Not just the free ones. But the exclusive ones only for VIP members including about a dozen others per week that I am part of you can do that by becoming a VIP member full details at Pete, w torch, VIP info dot com. That's torch, VIP info dot com. It averages twenty five a month if you choose the one year option, or you can go month to month for nine dollars ninety nine cents. It's checkout full details that PW torch, VIP info dot com. Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion, energy reliability investment. Our new investment product offers competitive returns, no, maintenance fees, and flexible, online access to your money, make the reliable investment in reliable energy, the dominion, energy reliability, investment to find out more go online to reliability, investment dot com. That's reliability investment dot com. Get to old navy today. All t's all shorts and all dresses are on sale now for fifty percent off. That's right. Get fifty percent off all tees. Fifty percent off all shorts and fifty percent off all dresses. Get the styles you want most right now with shorts from just twelve bucks for adults eight bucks for kids tease started to seven bucks for adults six bucks for kids. Don't miss out. Hurry into old navy and old navy dot com. Valid six nineteen to six twenty six excludes in store clearance, active licensed men's packaged flag styles. I feel like you know, somebody called up this show and said, you know, the worst possible way to try to, you know, deal with what Scott is dealing with, you know, especially the drinking and trying to get over that we're like the worst thing that you can deal with, I think this was on when Bruce Mitchell was hosting somebody called up the worst way to go about it is to have everybody staring at you waiting for you to fail or call on you to fail. And you know, I felt that. Everybody already. Yeah. That's kind of where I'm leading on it. You know 'cause I felt kinda bad like when Scott was on the show right after the hall of Famer earlier this year. And, you know, I just when I knew time was really limited on the show. And, you know, I, I didn't think overdid it on the questions but you know, I felt like in the end he was like, oh God, you know, just one more question about the hall of fame is gonna be drinking. It's everyone's gonna be watching the and it kinda sunk in, you know, that's, that's tough. But like you said, Sean, and I was thinking this when I was listening to the show since I wasn't hosting it when the person called up when people say, what's, what's, what Dallas page? Did was Scott hall with all the cameras on them in the house, and turning into documentary now doing these shows and, and all this public pressure and him speaking, so openly about his problems, and everyone wishing him. Well, you know, the idea was just go so against the, the book, you know how you're supposed to be talking about the big. Are you talking about the big book? Right. And so my my final. Because I think you'd probably group me on this one. But maybe not is Scott did everything else, everything by the book, many times, and nothing worked if this was a traditional by the book type situation, you could say, yeah. This is somewhat unconventional but Shawn has anything worked better other than in untrained in recovery diamond Dallas page pudding. Scott hall in a house in saying, no negative comments, we're gonna eat, well, there's we're gonna have cameras on hold you accountable and maybe do a documentary if you sign off on it if you, don't you don't and we're gonna hold, you accountable were put you in a positive environment where you're gonna get yourself healthy through exercise, and food, and positive attitude, and being a safe and comfortable environment. That's completely. Not typical, and it went somewhat public, and I think Dallas by made a mistake, and a couple of instances going a little more public with certain aspects of this new rooms. Yeah. I that, that's the thing that, you know, that there's a lot of people out there, you know, that, that twelve step program that those AA meetings, their lifesaver. They're the only thing keeping them from jail or degrades, you know. But the thing is when you're not scared of dying and you've been to jail much at times, you know, and, and, and that, like Josh not enough, man, you know you gotta have more to live for. And, and, and just, you know, all the all the positive vibes that were coming his way you know, because of the attention that Dallas brought to it just, you know, and just being out of that damn house. Yeah. When all. All those bad memories, and I and I it related. And all that. And and being around is son again, just. Yeah. You know that, you know, there's tons of people out there that get better that way to, you know, like I mean it's not that, that twelve step. Just a not work. Very buddy doesn't man in this process with Scott, do you think that the public focus, and people feeling and part of it is when you go on a show and he was on the show? And you in you're raising, you know, he and Jacob both been on the show, and there was the fundraising Kickstarter aspect to, to when I was when I come up behind Scott gogo thing. Yeah. And so when you do that, when you go on and ask for money, and Scott was very uncomfortable with it. But he did it. And when you do that people sten- start to feel they have a stake in your recovery because you went out and asked to help with your. Do things got now at the point, he's that, you know, post wrestlemainia post hall of fame post walking out there looking great. I mean just looking like razor Ramon, again, you know, and being proud of how we looked and, and having that little gleam in his eye and that confidence when other people spoke way too long to walk out there a note was his time to get in and out quickly without having to give a whole long speech in Mingo, he got his time, he was thinking about the bra interesting about the overall. You know, and but any item? Do you think that he's that he's quite comfortable with the balance, you know, the trade outs that come along with everyone publicly looking at him? Scrutinizing him judging every slip up that might happen or anything like it. You think he is standing today, roughly speaking feeling pretty good about the choices. He's made the last couple of years, and where he is today. And that the path, he took all in all is the only one that's actually worked in the past couple of decades. Yeah, there's a lot there's a lot of what you just said. We'd here's the thing is. There's a. You know, the big thing about, you know, when you have when you're in the hall, so that's jug, act and you keep on failing, you know, you keep on falling, you know, and all of that, when you get all these people like you know, that whole accountability, then like there's this huge. Huge man. And you multiply that by a thousand when you talk about now he's being inducted into the hall of fame and everybody's really ought to make us go about that pressure. Nobody everybody like that. That all judgmental like that. Like. You crack in half when that pressure way. Yeah. So that being said like, yeah man there's. It. It's. I don't. It's hard even that really, really man. He's ever felt uncomfortable with the public attention because he, you've been an open book, and in that's, like not everybody would come on this show, and talk the way that you have about your pass, and you're just like screw it. I'm not there's nothing about me that I'm going to even hold back. I'm just in open. Scott hall didn't live that way. He was people about him through a few public, stumbles, embarrassing, public stumbles, and you Endo and rumors and, and, and just physical appearance, you know, Elvis outfitted ten years ago, but he didn't talk a lot about it. I mean, he did a seven hour torch talk with me. I seven years ago, give or take. And that was like the first long form interview he had done where he really opened up about a lot of stuff. But this last year and a half, it's been the most public, he's ever been over us over a consistent period. Do you think that helped or hurt him that through beginning on Twitter and being public on inter? Views here on the live cast, and having people really follow him closely did that picture work for him or against him in his recovery. Edged sword. Yeah. I mean, that's the way I describe it's a double edged sword so bad. Yeah. Man, you have to take the good that comes with, you know, the bad that comes with the good, because like all this social media and all that. I mean it's been at the heart of a lot of pretty evil stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, like the slender man stop that. And all this, you know, people posting you know, gang beatings and beating the crap out of somebody up on, you know what I mean. And that's all I, you know, people in for that, same that quick, you know, saying that you can get now doing all that. So, like, there's that element to but, but really social media also has made it to where we don't need to be on national television to have a relationship with fans anymore. You know, and now we can have a lot more honest relationship with that. And yeah, there's a lot of people out there that try to screw up like a lot of souls. You know, that, that's all they do is try to on, and stir the, you know, the shoes and, and as a real pain. And like he's gonna get to you, or you can know you can see it, but what it really is every now and then I still had to get to 'cause I'm sensitive kinda guy, but really like I could over it real quick. And then I'm just like what am I what am I doing, you know? Yeah. Let's say you just bought a house. Bad news is you're one step closer to becoming your parents. You'll proudly mold along and give anybody noticed you mow the lawn. Tell people to stay off the lawn. Compare it to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again. Good news is, it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive, and save on your car insurance, which of course, we'll go right into the lawn. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers discount on stage stages situations right now, you can get both sprints, unlimited plan, and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit in eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one fifty dollars a month to twenty two fifty credit applied within two bills against overly remain. Unbalanced doing limited six thirty twenty thirty dollars per month per line for five lines with auto pay to d- does Asian during additions, maximum restrictions apply. Having been up and down the road with God and feeling just helpless, and lost, and frustrated and full of sorrow, when it's come to him as one of your best friends past couple of decades, he whatever criticism or lack of, of, of peer-reviewed track record and clinical trials and all that stuff has been absent about the past that Scott hall is taken Scott hall as taking an unconventional pass. But is it the best is the last year and a half with Alice page and everything since the of everything that he's tried with all kinds of money, and, and doctors and people with with success stories is this last year and a half easily and far and away, the, the most helpful, and the most progress, you've seen with Scott as a friend that I in twenty years. I think you know, they answer to that because you just gave you the answer. That's I mean, what, what you just your question. Like I could just like a couple of words that would be okay. Yeah. You know. Yeah. He's doing so much better. It's like when I saw again for the first time, I'm like. Yeah, you're back. Yeah. Like you really actually happy for the first time I've ever seen you ever because even at the very top when he was at the peak of his success, he's still had to deal with the magic and life and being on the road and not being emissions children. And, you know, not ever. Good enough, you know, all of that crap, you know. And now he's got. Allot more balanced man. You know, just the fact that he has that relationship of his children, which I am working on, like, you know, my and I understand that, that can be the maker break, right there. If your kids if if, if you if you can't have that relationship with your children, like still like my son's not talking to me, you know. And I don't blame them, you know, I don't I don't deserve it. My daughter, and I have a wonderful relationship. She's she, you know, like, you know, she's forgiven me, and then, and, and that and I'm working on my son, and he's doing the same thing and, and honestly man that is huge. That's huge that and our professional because wrestling was our life, you know, like before I was ever married or girl. And wrestling was my, my spouse or my significant other. So I mean, you know that, that part too man, honestly just him getting back and in around the wrestling business has been good. Whereas I'm a lot of addiction just had had said before he needs to be away from all that because it's feeding has, you know, 'cause he can go, and he's so brilliant that he could go in and manipulate the everybody in the treatment center and everybody running the place. Yeah, I mean so that therefore the treatment is ineffective because he can. He can van booze them so so fast. They wouldn't even know what hit them. And that's even a source, you know, kind of source of, of self esteem, that I can walk in and bamboozle the professionals and then just go back to doing what I wanna do you know, I mean, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean. You can't like be idolizing people other in reading. Yes, especially if you're the staff, you know, or you're the, you know, the ones that are facilitators. You can't do that. I think it was a judge. And the doctor George Horry and trial who excused HOGAN testifying because he thought it would be bad for Hogan's public image. But all the other wrestlers had to testify, 'cause they're public image is apparently didn't matter. And then afterwards that's hoped autograph. And I was like, wow. I mean, that's just I opening about the court system where you know, you got this really favorable favorable treatment. And then the judge is like, yeah, you know, treating like everybody I mean that stuff when you're in a physician of thorny, whether it's a judge or a drug counselor. You can't be a Mark. I mean you can't you just can't. Yeah. I don't even started on some of the judicial decisions that have come from how lately. Oh, yeah. It started on that legalizing pot. And in Colorado, I know you just you hate that show. Through the whole state. Yes. Bill Maher had a great closing bit on on his show about what the pot industry in Colorado needs to do that. They need to be the Jackie Robinson of legalized pot in other words style. But he well he made some good points. It's worth looking up on the internet. He said they need to stop selling edible pot. That looks like kids candy, you know, like he's where. Blue candy cigarettes. It is he says, that's not what that's not Jackie Robinson, that's being Philip Morris. And it was really great. I'll. Things I was so afraid of weighed that was that was the evil Philip Morris types taking an and I was afraid of them. I don't mean to get off on, on a you know, around about about marijuana on a wrestling show. But, like I, I'm I was afraid that they're going to take the, the, the actual natural plant and, and, and Janette remiss what it like they did tobacco and turn it into an actual harmful product. Oh, yeah. Take something. Yeah. Exactly. Take something that's natural. Yeah. And just in your harmless in its natural form. And I like I work, you know. Bothers me. But anyways, all right. Well, let's, let's go to the phone lines before too much longer here, and we got popular popular New York and New Jersey right now. Well start off with air coda three four seven two two seven the next three please state. Your name. And, and the city you're calling from. Well, this is Kristie York acre, thanks for calling. What do you got for today? Actually have a two questions. The first one is about the state of the wrestling industry. Does Shawn that the rest invis- can never have another boom like the late nineties, or has case fade die to the point that no one takes seriously anymore? Like if they want fighting those go to USC. All right. John at, and then we'll go back to Chris two different things. There's some crossover there. But really? Yes. There there's going to be a point where the industry has another another boom period. It just it's, it's it's going to happen. It's just it's gonna take a awhile for like I said earlier, emotional equity to be built up. It's like when you buy a home, you know, it takes a while to build equity when you're building stars. It takes awhile for for your most emotional equity of, of the, the, the fans. So, yes. Chris brings in by. We have a wide array of listeners then what, what he means by that is in, in maybe crystal me, but there was a time and we talked about this earlier in the show, Sean, where wrestling promoters, new that's fans knew the fights weren't all on the up and up that it was a work, but they knew it was responsibility to not remind viewers of it. Well, the experience was during the experience of watching a wrestling show as the Austin, says, we're storytellers and you remind people in the middle of a story unnecessarily you don't need to reassure your readers when you're reading a mystery novel, that it's a guy sitting at a typewriter making up all these people like an author knows you don't remind him of that during the book, even though the person knows when they pick up a fiction book, it's fiction. The writer would never remind them of it, nor would he pathetically like John sina, did, and WWE in general does put settig -ly asked readers in the middle of a novel. I hope you're under tainted by my characters that I created in my mind, I hope I'm entertaining with my plotlines. They would never pathetically do that. And and know. When he was asking me that I'm going to go back to them, but I'm hijacking the question but I think he. But I think he genuinely meant is K fehb dead. Or is it something that can be brought back where you watch a show and you actually get to enjoy it as if it's real because you get immersed in it, and I don't think it's too late to change that around. But I think what you said, Sean, is true that it takes time to rebuild that equity just like WWE deliberately five ten years ago started changing the ring style. We don't see Blake jobs. We don't see chair shots to the head. We don't see indiscriminate hardcore gimmick matches for no reason in the middle of the card for laughs and that's deliberate effort, and I'd say it takes three or four years to d condition the fans to expect that it's just part of the show. And so my question is, are we what did just take two three years to recondition the fans to the notion that when you watch his show, everybody, including JBL Jerry Lawler, Michael, Cole or acting like what they're watching is real instead of quote entertainment. One day, it would change in policy. Yeah, that's it. I mean as far as, as far as like changing the content, you know, adjusting the content of the shows like you say, I mean that we can do that overnight. But you know, as far as the people that you've turned off, because, you know, doing the other way like take awhile for them to come back. Maybe. Yeah. I came back after the HOGAN air died. All we do is just give them what they wanted, Chris, that I hold problem man, people get like sometimes I forget, what about them to the dance. What allows them to go public in the spruce place? Yeah, yeah, good point. Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion, energy reliability investment. Our new investment product offers competitive returns, no, maintenance fees, and flexible, online access to your money, make the reliable investment in reliable energy, the dominion, energy reliability, investment to find out more go online to reliability, investment dot com. That's reliability investment dot com. Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month for line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and in eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one who fifty two twenty two fifty my credit applied within two bills. Cancel remain. Unbalanced limited base six thirty twenty eight thirty dollars per month per line for five lines. With auto pay day debris, does Asian during your maximum restrictions apply. That I reasonably interpret your question there. Yeah. Okay. Good. Now, what your second question? Like yours actually about John. You know, I'll make you quick. I read the John Tina he actually on his own time. Stop the a teenager who's of catchy face. If they and this is regards to heal ter-. Do you think that the only way visit now whatever turn him? He'll and was facing another w w because to me, it seems like junkie should stay the way he is. Because the fans love him for it. And he has no competition so that he should say face the rest of his career if that's what he wants. Yeah, there's no reason to turn on Tina face. Or, or he'll because Johnson is just John sina. If they like somebody else more, they're gonna they're going to John. You know, I think he handles it very well. I think they get around it very well and their matches when if, if the people are, you know, are, are a little more hostile than usual towards a man. I mean he don't shave. I think I, I don't think I've ever seen anybody that handle that, that good to be honest. So I don't I think with him. It's it's not like. He would have to have somebody equal to our bigger than him. And as far as perception wise for him to turn on elyssa. He'll turn me squat. Yeah. I mean my short answer to the to the twice a week caller who you know, colors we got twice a week. You know John turned heel. I'm like, there's never been a point in the last five years, Sean, where they couldn't make a lot of money, turning, John. He'll so everybody who's who's booking in their mind. Turn and go. Well, that would make money and pop ratings, of course it would. But if they did it in the past at the first chance, they got it wouldn't mean as much they would then John, there would be no different than AJ styles Kurt angle. Lex Luger and other people who have been mis booked because nobody believes their constitution anymore because they have not they get they turned on a whim. So everybody says, well turned Johnson a hill, you'll make money. It's like you said that three months ago in three years ago in every day in between and made money. Support is they actually had the discipline not to until the short answer of thinking to turn heel. It's when he stops making money as a baby face. Or there's somebody who's, like you kinda just John who's overtaken him and management hunter and Vince feel. Pollen. Vince feel is. Deserves that topic they spot and they can absolutely afford to lose John as top back as a baby face act. And then the temptation is there to make money was seen as a heel. But if you turn seeing he'll, and you don't have another top face of the company in place. I mean that's crazy. You can't possibly for the short term boost. Do that, right. Exactly. And, and really? I come very to Cogan and in, in the way that still has to be something as, as monumental as an wwl angle for him to turn. Yeah. Yeah. They went asked to he would have to speed every single throb of blood out of that stone that he could possibly squeeze and the people, I mean you know what I mean? At that point, people were overwhelmingly kinda given Holcombe negative reaction. He wasn't even getting the polite legend. Yep. You know, and people. Yeah, I mean I know hesitated to the very end to agree to turn heel. But for probably, you know, two years or year and a half leading up to the hill, turn, I was you can go back and read the back issues, the torch, it's fascinating. The six nine twelve eighteen months. Leading up to the organ Hilton. It was like hoax, hulk is losing relevance. He's going to be there. He's, he's not getting the reactions. He wants God. And now is kind of the time when he's still got the equity where he'll turn would really mean something. And, and, and when he did it met so much, because they didn't wait too long, but they also didn't rush it and do it earlier. And it is it's picking weeds, Sean. How much seen charity work factor in at all? I mean, it absolutely is wonderful that, John Kerry. Well, here's the thing. Being just okay. I'm gonna have to just use the Mako S thing alone defacto that his he's even gone past. I you know, HOGAN rock anybody like of all time, there's Mako was. You know, things that alone does me they need to not mess with that. They need to not jeopardize that nothing. No, no short term. Pop in the ratings is worth messing with that. And breaking a bunch of little kids hearts. And I think that plays into John seen. I mean, I think that is a factor. Now granted Johnston is job is to make money for WWE. And if there's a much if turning Johnson, a, he'll freeze up as Bret Hart, leaving turning heel freed up DeVos to become the top baby face and lead to the biggest boom period, we've seen in wrestling, if there's an opportunity for John CENA, turn heel to open up a spot for Roman reigns or whomever else to become a breakout, top, eighty face and Johnson. As a heel makes N W O type of money. I would argue that they'll be another baby face to do those charity appearances and places sina and it's seen as job to do what's best for WWE and there. I say at the stockholders what's best for business. I think I think John Tina doing charity work is partially attributed, John scene of character, but I think it's also part of the machinery, and that the top baby face who's atop top face. For eight years, like seeing has been by definition is going to be in demand to do charity appearances inch sina happens to be very willing to do tons of them much to credit. But you'll they'll never. Where nobody. Yeah, I'm sorry. There's nobody even right now. Yeah. That'd be great. If we get somebody that's even relatively close to hot as John then. We could start talking about that. Yeah. That's my thing. I don't think they're the daily faces with turned heel and broken the hearts of their fans throughout wrestling history. And every one of those baby-faced turned or those, he'll turns didn't happen because promoters, the wrestler himself was scared of breaking hearts. The business might not be around today, because the definition of hot. He'll turn is when you break the hearts of fans who were following you. And at least let them grow up a little bit. Well in plenty you say? Funny. You should say that because that's kind of what happened with Cogan, you know, the grew up with them. We're kind of tired of by the time he turned heel and. And that's why think they've been really disciplined about not turning prematurely. But I do think the time will come in the next few years if they find a new baby face to take his spot, and that's required. If they have. It's going up. There's some guy there's some guys that have a real good shot. I think coming up, you know that good I think the brain why that is so yeah. Like when I see him, like I saw. Quite a bit of the apple, and when others lighters came on the when the lights went out man. That's like. That's incredible. That's that's to behold imagine I can't imagine it live. Let's take one more phone call in the live cast. We'll go to VIP after show with whatever time you have left, Sean. I know I took some notes here in one ask you, if you follow up some things, but we'll save that for members if you aren't VIP, one benefit of going VIP right now is getting the VIP after show was Sean today and also the complete torch talks, and live cast, Sean, Walton that I've done over the past twenty five years. You can go back to I think probably on the first radio interview you ever did on progressing focus focus. If you wanna see how terrible I was terrible, but it was awesome. You were brutal. It was great though. I mean it's in my voice was Ohio. I don't think my can. So. That there's some great. I mean really really, really great towards talks long long form talks in the back issues of the torture newsletter with Sean. And then he's been on the life cast before, including long VIP exclusive after show. So if you've enjoyed this interview I've been doing insider interviews, more or longer than anybody, the torch talk predated shoe tapes. It predated wrestling books. It was the first and currently still ongoing here insider interviews where wrestlers talked and other people in the industry. Chris cruises it, w w Paul Heyman. And Jim cornet has managers and promoters. When people went on record and talking openly about the business. There was no other interview series that predates, the torch talk series. It started in nineteen eighty eight and you can read all just about all of them, if not all of them, when you go VIP, and you can listen to a lot of them to PW torch dot com slash go. The I p. I'm and I'm Emily fear. We hope the Peter towards stayed. We talking on her joining, and our team, of course on. And every Wednesday as we discussed the week in bring honor, including Arledge TV on our events, breaking news and listener mail. Or would start like Jeff Kelly Klein three billion and beer. PW torch in apple podcasts or your favorite podcast app. Just for listening on demand. Tv entire PW towards David Cass schedule. At Pete up toward Stevie dot com. That's not. Okay. I think good wanna trying to count believers. Now. How y'all money? Right now. You can get both sprints unlimited plan and the all new Samsung galaxy S ten -cluded for just thirty five dollars per month per line for five lines. 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Let's go to our last caller. I probably the last caller. I won't commit to that. But maybe last caller, three four seven and then three nine seven the next on New York, please state your name, and the city you're calling from. Are you doing Mike Brooklyn? Hey, mike. Mike. You didn't have to say Brooklyn. We knew it just from the way you said like. Go ahead. Go to wait an awful song. Making statement. Thank you for all the years day in this industry. And to think you get a lot enough credit to the indices fall Phalle and everything I've been offenses, ninety one. I don't think, oh man. That's a long time man. So, you know, these writing kid days if you if you seen since ninety one mean. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I, I, sometimes I. There are days when sometimes I like. My picture in the encyclopedia the DAX thing. Abu say some powered about. There's some stupid like that. But overall you know what, man? The people are, are the people. They know they show me the love and the and, and the company is starting to more and more. I did it to myself, man. You know, when you you make an asset of yourself in public the way I did for years, and the way I fell off, you know. You know, it kind of it kinda messes, your legacy man. And I've had to try to do my best repair that so and, and I'm grateful that people are, are very forgiving. You know, people still bring their kids to see me. You know. I mean, that's you know, ungrateful, I was just up in the woods about three weeks ago. If it wasn't for you wouldn't be no thing Brian when be no Raymond stereo. I'm just saying. Man. Thank you, man. I would like to think that those guys still would came up and, and, you know, somebody else that they gave the opportunity would've carried carried the ball. But the fact is, is that they give me that opportunity and I did a did carry the ball into the end zone. And it you know, maybe a dig if it, it gave them the confidence and that they could, you know, rely on smaller guys after that. So I'll take that. But, like I still think, you know, there was a lot of really good. I had a lot of excellent contemporaries back then to, you know, Jericho, you know, mysteriosly guys that were around. They just I was the one that got that opportunity. WWF. You know, so I'm grateful for that. I'm very, very grateful, man. I've always been very fortunate to be at the right place at the right time. And then, you know, to actually not. So when I was when I got up to that, you know what I'm saying? Right. Right. Absolutely. I just wanted to send that you like I've always been a fan. You know what I'm saying? In that way like brought a lot to the game a lot like I feel a lot of times, I. Yeah. I even close to done yet. You'll see me back on. I'd even safety all famous. Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Luff actually three love, man. Thank you. Appreciate the call Mike much. All right. We are now going to shift to the VIP after show. Thanks to everybody on the life side of things for joining me today, if you didn't catch recent interviews with had a lot of goat's recently and Daniels. Christopher Daniels break 'cause Aaron Ron with Pat McNeill, on Wednesday and so. Yeah. So absolutely. I, I love their what they did in TNA the past years team and looking forward to what they do in our way and the indie scene a week ago Wednesday 'cause pet and I switched as last week 'cause my vacation in beautiful South Dakota, by the way, state, western yeah. West south west South Dakota just. Was born Sturgis. And oh man. Honestly, it was just I not been there before, and it, I just can't speak enough about the beauty and the people and their great restaurants. It was just real put like eighteen hundred miles on my car in the last days, which is worth for me sometimes so. That's, that's my, that's my idea of I loved getting in the car and drive. And now, some people like flying, like if I had the time I'd much rather drive, I got I got so much podcast listening in listen to so much torture, audio and some other wrestling podcast. Steve Austin, and Tommy Rogers with a blast and Steve Austin and Justin credible. I got a good good head start on that. It's still got more to listen to, but Tommy Rogers was amazing talking about. Doing a great job on his pro wrestling, one alone stuff. Man, I don't get that much. But then he's very good at that, man, you know and he's he's you know he's he's he's he's very well spoken. He's, he's telling guy he was a great partner and, and he knows man. And like, honestly he was his own worst. Like, like they just he, he didn't have a high opinion of yourself, man, like everybody. Everybody else do. Yeah. So I think that's changed in life. You know, I think he realizes like like, yeah. I'm you know this year's. I mean he's. And I'd be remember, if you're looking to mirror you gotta be able to look in the mirror and, and, and see you. Good things man that everybody else sees. He I, I mean, you gotta taste of, of PJ and what just the person that he is. And that I interview with Austin, you know, it's like and it drives me nuts. He's like he said, you know, 'cause he lives not that far from Stanford. And there's a lot of WB shows within an hour or two of house, and he's like, no, I'd like to go to go to the shows more, but he goes, I just I couldn't handle it if I went up to the back door and security didn't know who I was. And nobody let me in and I had to just hang my head and leave. He's like I love to go catch up to some of the guys. And I'm like that. Drove me nuts. 'cause shouldn't there be some sort of official channel for X wrestlers, who are welcome at shows and wanna go say, hi to be able to actually contact the office through some well-known official. That, of course. Yeah. Well, he needs to be told us, it's no more simple. I mean that's really simple. If you'd undefined you call relations. Hey, go to the go down. Stopdown voice Khurana's. Yeah. Come on down. You know, and they put your name on the list peach needs to know that because he's like go to shows, and I'm afraid that security won't know, me, and I won't be welcome. So he never never ever turn turn turn. TJ away my bring up story one because. Yeah, it was just fresh on my mind. But to it shows what you're talking about with him. You know, not, not say low self esteem, but like just not wanting to rock the boat, not not wanting to do and it, it worked for him in some ways, but a lot of times it worked against him, 'cause you do kinda have to reach out and take what you want, and even peach was more of a follower, and he'll admit that and it helped him in somewhere. Yeah. Home. You told me that. Yeah, you said he actually told me goes. Yeah. I'm just he's a mind your hotels right now. Like I didn't tell you. I'm like barred, bro. I I go in there and do battle. Yup. Partner man. And I know he's healthy now because you've got a hell of a gut on right now. Yes. Exactly. All right. I want to this up here 'cause we wanted them time for some after show stuff for paid members Gobi right now. You will not turn back. You will not regret it. People who sign up. Send me mails going. Why did I wait till long? This is, you know, I mean I, I, I should have more testimonials ready to read on this show. But just just give it a try PW torch dot com. Plex go VIP is what my life is dedicated to professionally for twenty six plus years. We've got a great staff led by senior columnist, Bruce Mitchell. It's just it. Absolutely. If you listen to the show this long, and you love wrestling, and you want understand it more. And you want to enjoy it more, you know, sometimes you see isolated stuff here, isolated stuff. And you think we're all negative and cynical. And all of that, you look at the big picture, and you see the approach we take. And, and, and I think you understand why people who love wrestling love what we do on the VIP side of things, which is where the despite all the content we put on the life has for free. The vast majority of our effort, and our body of work. In the Mnuchin all the details that we cover day to day I were our in week to week is on the. Or if your pet Patterson yet, or have you, you know, I way back at the trial, he was there in Long Island. What was that ninety four? And I if you talk with me, and he said, yes. And then it I don't know what it just didn't come about. And then I saw him just a few years ago and had a long long talk with them after eight WWE show here in Minneapolis. And we're talking about Vern ganja and Awa I mean, lots lots of stuff, it was just a great great thing. But I didn't feel like I wanted to hound him that about doing an interview, but I'd I'd love to have time but now that you know, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean he's the Yoda of a wrestling, you know, jed eye masters. He's Yoda and, and like, you know you know what to ask. So I mean now it'd be that's that'd be gold right there. Yeah. He's if not at the very, he's might be the number one guy in the list of guys. I've interviewed that I'd like to 'cause he hasn't. He hasn't written the book he hasn't done a shoe. You know, I like to talk to people who haven't, you know, who I feel that there's things that haven't been set or explored yet, and there's no doubt with, Pat. That's all right. Let's continue this conversation. Bomb show. Trump. Day, I never knew I Mitchell on the Bruce Mitchell audio show, which for a lot of people, the number one reason to go VIP. He did. On Sunday and he was talking about it, and he said, you know there was that race Stevens wedding. And we're still story better than I can. But Ray just said my partner. Pat, Patterson would never participate in something like this, you know. And I just exactly right. But yeah, this idea that it was some bombshell, and yeah. But anyhow, where's my where's my play out music? Here's my play music. All right. Sean woman, thank you so much plug plug anything you need to or want to hear. How can people follow you, what's the best way website, Twitter, Facebook? What is it? Oh, it's real x puck on Twitter and this this, this weekend, where we're at the plaza in Providence, Rhode Island and it's, it's just called fantast. It's and it's gonna be a ton of people here on the guy's got home. I self diner. There's quite a few people after like. I know you can go to question productions website and, and find out who all's going to, you know, fear for sure yeah. Yeah. That's what, what me and that that and I'm just keeping busy every week too much to go way too much to try to tell you on the air. You know, come on here to plug my stuff anyways, you know, I know. But people I mean people might wanna follow you keep track of what you're doing. So I'm doing it for them as much, if not more than you so over your. Oh, yeah. And that'd be a wolf pack dot com. If you wanna buy something I go excellent. I, I hope I said that, right. I don't even remember my own domain name very good. I think everybody join us. Join mitchell. Tribes Bryant on Mondays life gas. And even better dive in Gopi right now and become a subscriber. Find out why I've been able to do this professionally for twenty six plus years since I was sixteen when I started the business, you can see. See why subscriber sustain what I do by diving in for a small fee and supporting what we do here at the life, cast, and getting a lot of bang for your buck PW torch dot com slash there. I plug my stuff after your last punk Sean, which is very good. All right. We are now on the show portion of the program. John, thanks for staying around. All right. Well, let's, let's begin with your, everybody's favorite topic TNA, lots of people kinda wondering what's gonna happen to this company will spike, TV renew them the ratings just came in. They did rebound to a one point one rating last night. Now that the NBA NHL playoffs over with, they had a nicer and Bobby Lashley the new champion. Eric young rain is over. You've made your feelings known about this speaking of Twitter. But what, what, what, how disappointed or frustrated are you with what Tina has done with us by TV time slot? You know, I. I'm almost exhausted just from. You know, 'cause I I believe it or not. You might not know. I mean, I think there's by you know following my Twitter's, but I might tweets I should say, but I don't particularly enjoy burying people things. But I just can't help it. It's so but Saddik I mean just, you know. It's and what really concerned. But when not, what really bothers me is them some crate talent their way. And some guys that I really consider, you know, really. Really friends? Yeah, even if they're not there. The boys man, you know, and the boys, the boys, you know, and, and, and I care about each and every one of them, and, and for, for that opportunity to get squandered like that. It pisses me. Oh, ten I mean the no end. To no end harder has turned that thing and giant fricking, vanity pro wrestling company. I mean she has her own theme music Wade. Yeah. Although goes man, does Steffi McMahon does, what makes her different shoe? No. Shoe, no Raza M who around she has. No, she's not. She's not a wrestler, those guys. I mean, Stephanie even got in the ring wrestled, you know, they're actually there in the wrestling industry. She I don't care how long she's on that. They have company. She's still outsiders, far as I'm concerned. Yeah. Vincent, man drew, you know, sell out crowd of the silver dome, and hadn't wrestled yet. I mean, there's been some great promoters, wrestled, yet, or never wrestled. That's what that's what I think, is frustrating with people. Yeah. Yeah. It's not that he's not a wrestler per se. It's the decisions she has made the choice. But I I'm with you. I think the last year, and she became a central figure on television is when whatever level of respect a lot of people had left for her kind of went away, and they started going. Oh, god. You know, we always feared this. But yeah, she's, she's a money, Mark. You know she's turned into now. Now it's, it's the rest of their putting around the wrestlers, power shirring her that she's great. And this is where she should be and all that. And it is oldest church in the book owner to be on your your, your angle on your team. There you go. No Yes. What is there anything that can be done? Or is it best at this point of TNA were just literally go away and that time slot? Go to Sony. You know, I mean I just don't I don't I would here's the thing. I worry about the big Accu the suck just like as far as you know, like Joe. Jobs being, you know, just disappearing and the industry. But really, I mean few who's really got jobs carry their, you know. Well, that's the thing they've already laid off just about all the top payroll anyway. That's not ages styles doesn't have a job Daniels in cast. Don't I mean, I feel bad more sales. More styles styles as a job. He's Japan champion not have a job here in the United States, but he don't need them. Yup. And other thing I feel bad for robbery, and James storm. But the next say is, I think they'll have they'll make maybe more money just like ages styles. It's probably making more money this year, then he would have had. He stayed in TNA. So when it comes to jobs in the business teenage not exactly creating high paying stable jobs at this point there's not a lot left to lose now. They had fifteen guys making five hundred to a million bucks. That would be too bad, 'cause that, that does provide some legit leverage for even even Randy Orton got so frustrated with things he can say you know what you can do. The raw van dam thing, or the Christian thing, which is, I'm so frustrated, I wanna let her schedule or already, I, I wanna let her schedule and I just wanna go make a million bucks, but I wanna be I wanna be at home more often and I wanna feel a little more in control. My destiny TA offer that to a half a dozen or so. Guys over the past ten. Years now that, that doesn't even exist. You know. You know, the only positive saying for a guy that, that, that doesn't already have a mantle, that's you know, having, you know, an established name out there is that they're on TV. Yeah. You know on spite network. Yeah, that's, that's, that's the only thing and cause ally guys haven't been around on. That's that emotional equity that we talked about. So, however, there trust me TNA when I say this, there's independent groups out there that make you guys look like idiots as far as like like just like even in Europe, I was just over there. They've do. I mean not to mention the talent they have over the UK. I mean the promoter the promotions over there. Excellent excellent. There's plenty of work out there for for guys that are good. Guys that are I mean, just like the guys that were let go from vents. You know, it's just that they, you know, they gotta know you know they gotta be. They gotta take an honest look themselves in the mirror and not get to delusional about what they're worth. And they also can't go out there and low ball. Everybody either, you know that's. Plus putting aside from moment. Dixie Carter and her role on TV when you do have a chance TNA. What, what very specifically frustrates you. The most about the way they present the product. What's a concrete example to about what kind of drives you nuts? Honestly, I can't help but just. When I think about it. I just dixies face pops into my head. I, I, I don't know. I haven't been watching if I'm not watching the WW product and I'm damned for not gonna be watching watching this. So I can't honestly sit and compete in particular their episode by shows. And I just when when I tuned in other than when they let two guys go in there that are good. I just I it's just everything comes up. Yeah. I know. Yeah. No fair enough. Fair enough. We got our we got our T R. I won't say obligatory but are, are. TNA quota. Yeah. You know, I mean, I knew we had to talk about it, but I hate to, like too much of your time, you know, talking about that, because really there's not a lot to be done at that point, because it's obvious. She's not gonna listen. Yeah. At least not the right people. Yup. All right. Got most most of his complex, 'cause I mean, it's easy to have those type of people all you gotta do is his feed, their, their, their, you know, their false reality that they have built for themselves. So. Tell people, she's still people. She's her own worst critic when it comes over. Whatever. I'm sure I'm sure she's not a performer. That's the problem. Yeah. I mean, I don't know when she when she thought she became a performer. But Cam, I was just going to say something, and I had a brain fart. Oh, well back to interrupt me or interject yourself, Sean. Somebody the other day about, you know, tough guy rest are legitimately tough in the business. And, and you know if if you can kind of tell looking on the outside. And, and if it helps from in this kind of related to Daniel Bryan and WWE's portraying his neck injury is, is there a if somebody's bigger are they more durable is, is just and I don't mean muscular in terms of your on stuff. 'cause that's a separate topic. And I can ask that next if I too. But just in terms of size, somebody Daniel Bryan size have less of a chance to be injured than eight train, or Batista or drew McIntyre, somebody who's taller. But I picked deliberately three different body types there. I don't think anybody has any more. Or less of a chance of anybody else. Wade, except for except for somebody is carrying too much weight on the frame if a guy's to overly must carrying too much muscle carrying too much body fat. That's it doesn't matter, whether it's Muslim. That Wade if you've carrying too much weight carrying too much weight and fat on your joint better knees ankles, and it's bad hurt and that's about a mine. So actually, the bigger guys are much more susceptible to injury than the smaller guys. That's a point that, that is the point that I made tummy Rogers, Steve Austin in the podcast, steeping up last week, the and every time he Rogers Tommy talked about that. He it was like almost to the point of Steve being a little uncomfortable. There's, you know, have you listened to any of these podcasts? Sean, I try to really enjoy it because I think he does a great job. He's just he's an entertainer, you know, I mean he's, he's a he's a genuine guy but he's an entertainer. And he's gotten better as time has gone on. And at the breakthrough interview for him was one last November with this Keller guy. That's when things really turned around for him. But the thing is the thing that was interesting with the thing, that's treating Steve is he's willing to go certain distance, but there's certain things you talk about that, if you put it stay in the car or seeing the ring or say, locker and everyone sort of wild. Yes. Pushes those limits. With Steve and. Yeah. Yeah. And Tommy did that when he was talking about how the steroids he took he thinks added musculature that allowed him to do things with his muscles that were unnaturally strong that has ligaments in his joints, and tendons and his back could not handle, and he thought growth hormone along with would have been able to in. No, no why. Well, that's because growth hormone allows the, the soft tissue attendance to, to, to grow along with the muscles. So your most of us, don't get too strong for your tendons. Yup. Anyways. Yeah. So he was he was talking about that. And he was just like man. I you know, the description of what he goes through just to get to work in the morning. He lives in a why and works at a warehouse or it but he talked about, you know, he has to take bath every morning to loosen up and the pain. He's in and all of that. Yeah. I mean I just think any young. It's so tough for and I don't tear Taylor got frustrated with on a lot of x division guys TNA during his time there, and he'd probably still frustrated today to an extent, but a good influence with young guys and WWE developmental. He's doing phenomenal job. Yeah. And the argument he makes it I, I know he's made. And I know a lot and you've made another is telling young guys when when they wake. And they don't hurt from the morning before they don't hurt that bad is slow down. Because, you know, Matt hardy was one of the first guys use the term bump card with me. You know, you've only got so many. Here's a little bit before you where. I don't know that I. So very. Terms of all of. Boy, oh boy. My pet. On the back. He's. But I've always said you only have so many bumps on your dump Kurt, and then. Yup. And, and so with, with, with young guys, it is it is, you know, Tommy Rogers back and he's like, man, you know, they're just, you know, and he will he wasn't taken bump, like does you know, but he was making a ton. So my question as that is kind of the foundation, a little bit is. Do you understand? Or do you agree? Do you understand what's going on? With delta who year year and a half ago was looked at as a future, top star. And now he is just just a mid card. So rapid fire takes so many hard bumps and not in a way that seems to my I particularly efficient. And I know that management, frustrated do you think that he's being pushed less because people have told him slowdown, and he just won't? Or do you think other things are at play? That I don't think that's it. And, and, and I do understand what. Where what you say about as bombs. You know, I really like kind of like Billy Billy bumps and seeds. But it's yeah, it's these days, we kinda gotta do it a little bit different. We still have to take those. Nice Chris Plante Mex, but you know, he he you don't do you don't you don't go down on the first trick and punch, boom flat back, you know, rock a little bit because he'll dick Maryland. Then you take it. I bump, you know, then you feed up and the whole time the be, you know, the baby they has to give you some breathing room to let you get back up. You know he'd be up on you like grabbing. And one of the biggest pet peeves babies knocks the guy down just pick them back up and not come back down. Again. I could be good if you're not known for one day. And he's feeding back up cover his ass. She dumbs some bit. Yeah. Yeah. You know that's, that's what I love about the Steve Austin podcast is here in him with other wrestlers talk shop. You know, in a way that you just don't get except when to smart wrestler, sit down and critique somebody's style and pick apart things that maybe, you know, just about anybody else, isn't going to pick up on, that's holding them back or, or just or costing them years on their career because of inefficiency. All right, doing okay, John, well, she's the other thing is the rain used to be like, so hard to, you know, that's what that's what people still don't keep in mind when they look at those old matches or better on the network. That was a severing took years up the of our careers. You know, yet, if how. Ow. WWE network is gonna work in terms of royalties. No. I don't. Yeah. And I've been asked by other guys, and I'm not the one that. Because I'm like hundred boy and a lot of people on the internet. Dear boy, tell here boy, that's right here, my boy. When my best friend, ever, help say my life. So. Yeah, my boy, he just I don't. I you know, I don't know. I don't know that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hope hope hope it makes sense. What they do. We got a question. This is from Mark our Mark from Kentucky Sean different wrestlers at different feelings on watching their own matches after the fact you let yours. And if so what criteria do you use to evaluate your performance or match quality? Yeah. I do. I watch my matches allot, and I use the same criteria. I do within the other match. I watch if it makes if I ever, there's very few matches. I watched it. I, I won't pick apart that I can't show you where I did something wrong or why I where I neglected to. You know, cover guy in time or or, or I moved on the double down and and, and ask the devil down up so that people can get what it. Just a lot just. And really the main great area on what decide what good matches in. My eyes is always been crowd reaction. 'cause I don't care what you do like you can throw out there and do every great moves. And you know, tell story to me, it's you crowd. We are doing the whole object of what we're doing is to perform for crowd. So like that's why I that my barometer is. Okay. The moves gotta be nice, but. You know, a lot of people can do nice moves way to. It's gotta be crowd reaction more than anything. Yeah. Question. I this is VIP member Brandon from Michigan, and we had a question about this earlier, too. I think was crisp. New York says where do you think if aid stance in today's day and age and where should it stand after listening to Steve Austin's podcast with RIC flair got into talking about blading and where they keep their blades, and so on now I know this is common knowledge nowadays insider fans. But to me that was a little too much detail, especially from two of the biggest stars in the business, who knows who's listening on free podcasts like that. We all know magic is an illusion. But we don't all know how the trick is done. Thanks for your time before you coming on that, too. It's funny because when I first ran and advertisements for the pro wrestling torch newsletter in a national wrestling magazine, there were other smaller wrestling newsletter editors, who thought I was doing something wrong because anybody could then order the newsletter as if that wasn't always the case as, if it was some sort of clone like you're okay. Yeah. Like you're like you're supposed to be a trade, drew. Yeah. Well, yeah, like I'm supposed to only the only people can subscribe. Somebody who who is commended by another subscriber, you know, kind of immense club, you know, cafe club or something, and I was like, well, okay, I mean that's fine. But no, that's not you know, that donor face me. But, you know, there is that aspect of now that the Steve Austin pockets without their in podcast one he's doing something that's reaching a larger audience platform then other podcasts because of the Steve Austin name and more than the daughters that said, Mick Foley in his book, and so many books since then, we're marketed by WWE, and they wanted a great detail. I think it's a question you want. But one thing I'd be curious about is do you think there is a format or a place where certain things should not be talked about where that line has because a new technology or new marketing, that that has tested before? Way. Somebody. There's always going to anyways. And. I you know, if if somebody brings it up, I'll talk about it. The fact is we don't do it. They more. Yeah. It's, it's, it's an archaic practice that it doesn't really happen, much anymore. You know. So. I know I don't think I don't think hurts anything Wade. You know we. Would I understand that? 'cause that was actually going to use the magic analogy. It's I mean, it's, it's a little different and, and everybody wants to know about the workings of the business cause they wanna be the big, you know, prognosticator critic, you know what I throw this out there. I think there's different levels of fans. And I think somebody's listening, Steve Austin, talk to Tommy Rogers about world class champion pressing in the eighties is not your typical, rob. You're the same way that when I watch a sci-fi movie with great special effects. I'm not the fan. Who, I'm not the type of you're of a movie who wants to then see the deconstruction of how the special effects were done. I don't actually want to see that. 'cause I'll know I'll be paying attention to that next time. I watch a movie, I'll know we're CGI needs the actual set meets, you know, I don't wanna know movie, I think there are fans who have a natural point at which they go. I don't want to know this, because it doesn't make me more. Interested in wrestling, and actually take something away from it, and I think that's up to each individual person to decide not sure without worrying about Steve, and we're talking about their blades are 'cause nobody who didn't wanna know that detail would make it that far into Steve Austin's podcasts anyway grew. Yeah. Steve from California says can US Sean his memories of his match with the rock that was made event over rob back in ninety eight I remember Shawn Michaels turning on him with a wicked chair shot. I thought it was one of the greatest matches and JR tremendous calling thanks to both of you. I love when Sean is on the light guest. I remember. I mean remember vividly. It was one of many matches I rock and one of one of several I had with him on television. I, I headline the people with them. And, and in, in London arena for the W W S title. But yeah, that was. You know, they that's what, what, what the advent of the network now like. All of the one guy that called earlier, it was, like you don't get enough credit bub-bubba, then that work is given me plenty of credit. I'm more than happy with the credit that I that I get these days more than happy. Yeah, there's always gonna be some people say, and he knew this, or, you know, whatever not going to want to acknowledge certain things, and I. You know, they've been responsible for whatever big deal as far as the match with rock. I just remember as always we, we really good chemistry. Wade excellent chemistry from the very first time I worked with them. And yeah, that was. One of those matches that we'd barely even had to talk we barely even had don't we, we got down was, you know that we really really had action stone was the was the finish where Sean turned on me. I was the guy I was to go to turn on, you know, like every like everybody else, my friend turned. Until I turned on Kane turned on razor, too. But. You know that Sean hit me so hard with that tear the chair, bent over my head, and I was out like a light, and the people actually were so with the students thought I was actually had a chance on women. And that's because of how they use around there. Yeah. You know, I didn't win every match, but I want enough big ones, you know, that they knew I could pull another time. And, you know, I, I remember I kicked out of the people's elbow. And what else about it? I don't know. It was just a real fun match. I know what I was gonna say when they when in the new video game. Well, maybe not the one right before it, you know, it was going through that there. And when I wrestled, and when Shaan turned on me switched it from a cherry shot to the head Cam, give me sweet music. So, you know it was the whole no chair shot. Yeah. Even on the even on the video game. Oh, wow. Yup. Me. Really? That was one of the. That was one of the harder chair shots. Yeah, I, I don't miss those. I'm glad they're either Rome. Yeah. I was like the first one to take him. And I was like this hit me. Bring brother Brian that, you know. And now I'm paying for it. I know I, I you know, you see what's done is done to, to a point. It's not like there's anything that can be done about it. But there's so many guys I'm sure from that. Because, you know. Just I hear a lot, and I might repeat myself a lot like you know, it's got. You know. But that the same time I still present pretty well. I think yeah, yeah. No, definitely I think you're hard on yourself. But. You know, I mean you're aware enough to know where part of it too. Every I think when you take shots to the head, and then you start to forget things as people who enter their forties start to forget things that they took for granted, and their twenties. It doesn't have to everybody, but happens to a lot of people, you might over prescribe it, two chair shots for the head, and I'm not diminishing that, that isn't something you should be concerned about all the concussions took and all that. But sometimes, you know, it's, it's like somebody walks in a store, and they're in the person behind the desk, is route to them if they're they would go, that's because I'm a woman or I'm fat, or I'm this, or on that or on that, sometimes it just because somebody was in a bad mood. Yeah. Or some of the church. You know it's not. But that said, I'm not again, I'm hardly wanted to minimize the effects of it. And I hope that, you know, that it doesn't turn into a, you know, a progressively worse thing for that generation of wrestlers who were doing things that, you know, if it does it does. I mean it's, you know we, we didn't. You know, I knew I signed up for you know what a green, but you don't want. I still like when, when you when you say, hey, this is WWE and here's a million dollars. And here's TV fame and everyone else is doing it. And so you should do it too. I think the, the point of promoter is to be the adult in the room and to say, hey, wait a second. You know, maybe this isn't the best idea, even though everybody's doing it and everyone's willing to do it, because there was willing to do it, because it's kind of team sport in the sense of nobody wants to be the one to say I don't wanna sacrifice for the team, but I think there should have been ups we, we wanted to do it weighed. The torch this should not be being done. There's a long-term vacations and I don't think I had any particular special insight that Vince McMahon did not have or Jim Ross did not have. I think they should've stepped up and said, I know you guys wanna do it. And I know you guys know you haven't signed up for ballet, but we can tell the stories we wanna tell which is happening right now, by the way without stiff share shot to the head. So we're going to stop doing it. I think that should've done back then. I mean, I, I wasn't sure fair enough but. For what, what can we do not can do about now? We can't go, you can't go back in time and smack them on your own stoomville. I don't get any. I mean, they're, they're doing a pretty good job these days when it comes to that, right? Point. That's my point is, I think the reason they're doing a good job of it. Now is because they're willing to learn a lesson from the past. And that's where I would say it's worth visiting and saying, wait so much should've said something then the same way somebody should say something now perhaps about, hey, what are the royalties on this network? You know, it's not a physical harm thing, but I just I'm an advocate for wrestlers feeling like they have a voice in promoters, actually looking out for the wrestlers and not just Wall Street. And right now, I think I think the pattern promote the patterns promoters to look out for their profits over the health wellbeing. Fairness wrestlers and the that the head is an example of people who weren't in the moment. Like you say, we all knew what we're doing, and we're willing to do it. That's fine. But I think it promoted should've said, no same way today. You can make multiple points. But one of them is, somebody should stand up and ask, hey, how's this going to work with pay per view payoffs, and how's this gonna work for royalties? And there's doesn't seem like there's actually a place to do that or in management's, not communicating wrestlers. What the deal is anymore. Now that circumstances of changed. Somebody's going to have to be the one to stepped up in and ask. Yeah. I what's that? Okay. I, I mean jumping, no. I mean that's totally fair question, totally. I'm not sure how they would go about doing it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I can. And in. I'm just that people are seeing my body of work. Yeah. That have never been exposed to it before. But, you know, I do you know my share, you know, just like everybody else does. But let's see what happens. And, and, you know, I mean they hire publicly traded company, they're not gonna. And I'm going to, you know purposely, try to, you know try to anybody like you know. If you call their Mayo's you money. Like they're gonna give you the money. Yeah. It's. It's. I mean it's like if you if you don't ask our business like your hand you something, you gotta ask. And then kind of fair. I mean, I know it's, it's it's scary to do that. But like the being an adult sometimes scary. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Put the big boy pants on and going ask you have not been on the show since wrestlemainia and the end of undertaker's streak. What's your what's your Michaels with Steve Austin's podcast to plug Steve Austin's podcast again here and said that the call was made that afternoon, the final call at least was made that afternoon is that your understanding also. And what do you what do you think of the decision making process and the rationale for the streak ending and being the one to end it? I don't know enough to the details. I don't know what Sean what all Sean on these podcasts either. I know we had a private discussion about it. I don't think I don't know if, if I'm at liberty to give sons private thoughts. Was he was there and that the call was made? I know what he said four hours before the match. And I don't think he went into a lot more details. And that's so if you don't feel. I'll tell you what the interpretation was of Shawn Michaels tone from most people inter- interpretation, most people had from Shawn Michaels tone is that Vince McMahon made the call and it's up to him and a lot of people disagreed with it. Two two. But like I, I can see where Vince is coming from, like nine site. Yeah. Publicly on Twitter, Sean, you were upset about it, and then you learn something, and then you were. Pretty on that, you know, Markelle banged up in that match free. Yeah. I mean I there was a. It wasn't like wasn't casualties rematch. But yeah but that did affect the finish. That's just a fact. No. I and I wasn't like when I made the comment, that's why sometimes I need to just sit back and keep my mouth, and my hands off of, of a keyboard instead of just, you know blur. Now my enter thoughts, so I was really apologize in more for, for working on my thoughts on something like that. I know nothing about like and, and, you know, I understand where it's coming, I, I personally would have liked to see it on somebody else, or seen, John for somebody else that, you know that that was good. You know, to help make somebody else can that transfer to Roman reigns say, if rain rumble in listener wins the mania. Yes. Yeah. And I still think if they can get stay, I still think that even though there's no more. Week. See that's the whole problem with that streak. It's just like the undefeated back when Goldberg and American Tonka, and all that, like, when they concentrated on the undefeated streak, then when you lose it kind of takes, you know, a little steam out of there. You know, but, but it also adds intrigue to sting taker match if that were to happen. It media thirty one. Which is maybe staying we'll win. You know, and if they can tell that story effectively, but at the streak is on the line. I don't think anyone would win. But if now that's streaks over its thing faces taker the near falls. It's things score will actually gonna pop. Yeah, I agree. And I think that both, I think. I think Steve should ever. I honestly think that I don't know speech talk about it much. And when I speak, I mean, staying I always had the perception that he didn't think he could run with us up up there. Yeah. Anybody couldn't full time? And he was he was you know, he was good. He was pretty heard at one time. You know, I look back a lot better night gave them credit for. But, like then that'd be oh, times some and it was during the headlight sometimes played. I know stink stink flair sting Vader probably his top two opponents that he had good matches with. But I mean, but you know how that goes what flare flare carried everybody to just didn't tell them what he told him what to do. You just didn't tell them why they couldn't go and use that, you know, the growth from the else heated flare pretty smart. What you're saying, so you staying like you think there's he might doubt himself? And especially you know in his mid fifties I got. Either that or he really just. Goes in, you know, care about, you know, about having reworked through that'd be that'd be out he, and I don't believe that I don't believe that. Always got a cook seal to not have to work that hard and by that hard. It sounds, you know, he'd be like, hey, I worked hard. But I mean, relative to the other people at his pay scale, he, he never had to work anywhere. Close to the average level that people at his pay scale had work because he was the alternates WWE that TNA more recently. And obviously WW before that was willing to keep around big money for a part-time light schedule. And he never had to actually draw money. He was just like the top paid guy. And, and there was a lot. Was in the locker room because of that. That's the truth. That's truth. 'cause a lot of us were were we're working real. All you know. I remember being twenty days a month at one one month is w w. There was hard those actually hard at there. What do you think do you think are no and speak to whatever you have how Mark Calloway feels about the way the streak ended into whom it ended? No, no. I don't have any idea what his giving. On I just respect whatever feelings are he it's, it's, you know, it's decision. I. I heard raining prep for the match didn't go well. And that he had communicated that events, then I, I made the argument that one of the reasons that I, I wrote this in the newsletter the torture, sorta right after us, mania when I was kind of processing, as a lot of people were something that was very important to a lot of people and very, very big annual tradition in wrestling pass five six seven eight years as it grew into this legendary stature, that, that it had with Michaels and tribulation. I see 'em punk. And I, I, I was at peace with a finish, even though I had argued forever he should retire undefeated, I was at peace with it, because I felt like by losing one Roman reigns. Was a perfect guy not to be takers. I think people would hold that against rates. I think they'd say you've ruined it for us. But Lesin or could win and under there's no shame in losing to Brooklyn for UC heavyweight champion complete bad as he paid his dues in unconventional ways, but religion or absolutely paid stews just like her dangled it Olympic medal, absolutely. You know what, you know what we're I'm so sick of that is you so and such a deroga- tive town. Oh, he's part timers part. Timers. If you could if you could do it on your own. They wouldn't have to bring the part-timers back. Knuckleheads I know. And you know what? My own step up your game. I totally agree. But I think w w we played that game with rock and I think, people, I think, WWE put the propaganda. There's part of their Johnson, the storyline, which I disagree with the vehemently have on the show over and over again they convinced not only the fans but their locker room of young impressionable wrestlers that rock was was stealing their spot, and even the punk so Burke, spot into that somewhat showy. I talked to people in w who talked to fill about that. And they were just like, I can't believe guy. So smart is being so dumb when it comes to this issue. And granted part of that just still being so competitive, and wanting a main event, and he knew his limited, maybe shoot. Maybe. Here's angle. I don't know. Yeah. Hey, I am not. But I most respect for Bill and I I've ever say respect decision to walk away. Yeah. You know, it's I think it's. I scratch my head over like you're, you're only there's only, you know. Any less mania, you can be at near at the top of like I think it's crazy. Not to do it. Like if you're going to be a wrestler. Yeah, I just, I don't know enough about his state of mind in January, and I mean he he's a guy wanted to take time off two years before that, or your whatever you're going to have before that. And, and he got hot, you know, he did that promo when he got hot and he stuck around and he took a little bit of time off last year around this time but I just don't know enough about him to judge him. I just admire someone I admire someone who walked away from money out of out of peace health peace of mind, and just wanting to say you know what money's not the be all end all in for him. It wasn't. I it seems like it wasn't fun anymore. And he actually did what very few people did he walked away. I did like him being lectured about leaving money on the table from people who in their wake left, broken marriages and children. They didn't raise. I, I didn't like him being lectured about. Where putting that that's putting that. You know what you could put me in that category to little bit. Yeah. And then are. But, but see, I also like I also have time respect for for decision. I just it's, it's Dogar scandal, you know Formby down to camp. I love the fact that he hasn't said a word. I mean, I think that would you goddamn business right? Well, okay, I'll disagree a little only a little bit. And I that's important that thinking a little bit. He's a public figure who made money based on marketing persona and Mark part of that marketing, the Prasada was I'm what a you I'm frustrated with management. I'm C M punk. I'm a rebel, and I speak my mind, I'm a pipe bomb thrower. And then he walked away and left, everybody. Hide in all his fans. Like why won't he talk only talk and my response is he's not that into you and all that stuff. You watched last year and a half was a work and you bought it. He played you like a Mark. He wasn't one of you. Anybody I don't think you up to the people but. Well, no. But. I don't think he, I don't think he claimed to give shit about the people. Well, but the people bought into the Siyam punk character says as let me, let me wrap up because I think you're disagreeing something that I'm probably, not in the end gonna say because what I'm my argument is don't be mad at the pump because you bought into the, the ride that took you on, when he said, I'm anti management, and I'm a rebel, and all that what you should do is Meyer, the hell out of the fact that wears quit. He didn't go grovelling to you for approval. He didn't go to justify himself. You should him more, because everything he did on TV was a work, but I don't think that he didn't agree with a lot of what he said. But when you start making money with the character, the truth, become secondary to what will draw and Myron is the pump built his character around around a guy who speaks truth, the power and what I love it equipped and he said, I don't need to explain myself to anybody. And that actually. Actually, the legend punk. Yeah, he doesn't. He people people paid money watching perform about his merchandise, or they buys t shirts that they can wear, you know, that they use out of. And even Steven nobody does anybody anything. You know what I? There's very their affair even read, but I would say why I disagree. Just a little bit as I do. I tell people they should be. They should admire punk for not saying anything but I do understand why many of them do feel betrayed because I understand. But. But. I know. And that's what it does come down to is. It's yes, I get because they felt like he Mark that he marketed himself to them that he owes them an explanation. Mike counter to that is he is being more true to himself by not going on the podcast, circuit and the shoot tape circuit, and the and all that. And and walking away the way that he did. I think that legitimizes what I think was a large largely a work his character, it legitimises in a way that him going on. The hey, I want to tell everyone my side of the story doesn't. But the thing is, Sean, we don't know maybe he walked maybe Vince that down. And punk said, I'm taking two years off. No one's gonna talk about it. I'm not you're not. And in two years, I wanna headline wrestlemainia, and I'll come back and Vince, it sounds like a great plan. Fill. You take two years off. Would you need and wrestlemainia thirty three wait for you? I mean, whatever it is. There could be something really huge. That that is planned. And that's why he's not talking. That's I mean that's true. That's all. I mean, that's, that's, but that's all speculate and they're gonna have to keep on speculate until you actually said something, but you come on people like, don't you other things going on in your life? Well, yeah, fair people get the moneys made when people care deeply about wrestlers. She only messed it in their career. And so, you know, if you wanna make the money at the box office, you gotta live with them feeling like it's their business to know why you walked away with zero notice, and that's where I'd say, people have some right to expect something other than you know, if you're in a marriage or somebody and one day they packed leave, and don't leave a note, you're going to go at least leave a note. You at least tell me why you went to expect that. Well, okay. But you okay. I put it. Expected all they want, but they don't have the right to we don't have. It's just like we don't have the right to not be offended. Correct. Yes. When it comes to, like three speech and all that. It's. Countable for your speech. You know, if you say something, that's, you know, out there, like, but you're still free to say it three nine to say anything. Don't get your parking, we're accurately in the fence, that they don't have a right. But it's understandable. Why punk fans who are so invested in believed in him would like some sense of understanding of why walked away my argument in return. I understand you wanting that I get it. And but punk is in individual, and he is due, she's not talking has a sense of purpose. And you might need to wait to find out why and that might be he never speaks. And that's how we weren't. And when he comes back, he'll bust his ass is harder. You can't against or you people. Yup. I think it's I at that big at that big of a star walked away and hasn't talked, just don't know. I mean very standards with the Detroit Lions, maybe to a degree did that. I just I always say, Barry Sanders. It's. Oh, yeah. Well, it's very centers. I said, went wrong once very centers walk away. You know, really the pinnacle of his crew didn't really talk, explain himself much, so. Yeah, I I'm fascinated but I had Meyer him more for the way he has done this even though I some people feel a little hurt. But, you know. To that, too. And I think we kind of pretty much agree. I just was a little harsher in the way. I articulated. Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's just 'cause you're a teach me sometimes like some people, I'm working certain about their entertainment than they are safety or Welby wellbeing of performers. It's just like this six, I ring debate crack. I know it's a bunch of crap. It's funny people are upset, and I get why about, like eat enough areas, spoke about a lot of people like why you try on the top point of those pieces of shit. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. No, no go. I mean, it's you're saying the ring itself, if the wrestlers voted it'd be unanimous for a four sided ring true and in so. Well, because anybody that goes to the top number one, the ring the rope serve like at one hundred hundred twenty degree angle instead of ninety degree and go. So them you, you're like it's crazy. It's crazy standing up there. Like I didn't understand that verse. Why like I felt like I was gonna fall when I got up there. And then I realized how crazy angle is the ropes and like doing a high spot that doesn't bother me 'cause I don't, I don't eat even ropes to have man's in Costa Rica, we had a hell of, and that's we didn't even use because they wrote. Yeah. But you know, I mean it's basically that and when, you know the tag match you can't even be on the hopper said that quarries from each other. He'll look stupid on TV. I agree. What, what upsets me about the whole thing is I on the list of things. TNA should be worried about right that just shouldn't be occupying anyone's time to create that poll like there's just too many other things that, that I mean. Yeah. Let's take on a pig as they say kid. That's right. So I said four six how about good or bad wrestling show? Yes. Yep. Yep. Seth Rollins dean we talked about Roman reigns. And you know, got a lot to prove but he's a good bet. But Seth around what do you think of them? I know you saw them developmental and how do you think they're coming along? What's their upside? I. What you know. It's always, it's always tough when you break up a hot act. Yeah. You know what happened with, with, with the ex, you know, I mean, luckily, I broke when hundred turned on me I if they, they threw me with the Mon with Cain, where we had I was really extremely happy that my run was came as the teams worked out, fantastically. And I love he's my favorite partner. But those guys I think both you just find on their own. 'cause they both have. Ambrose has really unique interview promo style. Way talks and and, and set doesn't suck on the Mike. Eater. And I think the more you, the more you, given the Mike, the, the better yet, you know, it's just like exercising or you know, practicing thing and. Hopefully, they have the right people on their side, and, you know, the writing meetings and they the opportunities because they'll both you just sign that they if they get given the opportunity, you know, if they don't just get lost in Chappel pretty happy 'cause their way too. Are really high. Well. Of the three, let me of the three who, who do you think has the best chance to be a successful centerpiece star, five years from now? I already said Roman reigns got together. And I still that way. Why why I could be? So I could be totally wrong. Yeah. That's what I like. Is it a case with Michael's Janetti where you just kinda know? Yeah. Just one guy's going to be there. You know, just it's, it's hard to say why then the facts trying to be. It's going to be the one that wanted the most and is willing to go to greater links to get it. And that means whether that means on somebody's toes on the way up. Or whatever. Yeah. So what, what that's what it takes to really make that top spot. There's other reasons besides like me, the, you know, discipline bomb, or whatever that I didn't go higher than I did. And, and now how far? What, what did you if you remember your thought jump back in with it? But what, what did you see in Roman reigns, early on that? I was gonna say, I wasn't willing to go to. I wasn't like wasn't. Wasn't willing to go in. And, and very somebody their back I wasn't willing to do a lot of. Things I wasn't ruthless is I is I could have been, you know. Yeah, I was a rip. I was a rebel. I wasn't afraid, you know, I spoke up myself, but there are certain things that I just wanted to do like, you know, I wouldn't go there. I'm not gonna go into detail what those things are either. So what are they that you have to do that? I wasn't willing to do and, and, you know, and it wasn't anything like I didn't even need to make anybody go, like user imagination 'cause I just mean, you know. Just being roofless. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I wasn't. Vincent man, admire and look for that some that some just decent people might think would be the most unprofessional thing you could possibly do to get to the top. What are things that man looks and goes, oh, man. That guy wants it. I this is I like this guy. Well, I mean obviously being in shape is a huge part of it, but it's weird with this, because it can be any quirky thing like, wow, that's how question way to you have to have Vince that question. I mean as well as I know, like and, and that in, well, a lot of people might November, like honestly, I think. You know, besides the big having a great physique like he respect somebody that has a set of balls on them. You know that. That's what that's what I'm getting at. How does are there, examples name name or you can, if you want, you don't have to where there's examples of guys who showed Vince, that, that as route, Vince, call the ten years ago ruthless aggression behind the scenes? What does Vince mean when it uses that abstract term where some people succeeded by taking concrete action to show ruthless aggression behind the scenes, what are there examples, you can recall people being loose having ruthless aggression? What did Shawn Michaels do what did Steve Austin do what did triple h do before over? That's that's they don't. They. Yeah. Yeah. And John was really. Got away with talking events like nobody I've ever seen. I don't know. There's some answer there's some questions that I can't. I just I'm not gonna just make up an answer just to seem to sound like I know the answer to, you know, honestly wait, I don't know. I can't but the thing you're on xactly those, those things I mean I know it in my like. Like I mean, sometimes it's hard to spit that out. You know what, what did you see in Roman reigns early on? Just how does that his natural? Yeah. I mean he's very he's pretty quiet guy, actually know and this is a look and the fact that he is. Gets and, and that he Samoan never met Simone that can go out there and work. Part of it. He's the guy so many people said this, but Scott hall has a lot, which is you gotta be a guy who wanted date and guys wanna have a beer with and Roman hits that criterion away. John seen it does not. Yeah. Yeah. He might team do you mind. Actually draws be a little too much with the girls. But yeah he's still the guy still think he's about acid. Yup. Yup. I think he doesn't have from what I've seen, and I think everybody would back this up. He's not Kevin Nash in terms, if you put them on process radio show in nineteen Ninety-four, and he just gonna tear down the house. That's not Roman reigns. But from what you've seen he's a quiet guy. But does he have a good promo because I think he has some Kevin ashes qualities. He's not as tall. But he's not he there's that kinda walk in a room own the room. And there's a cool cool on court. Wade, yeah. So, so rains, though doesn't have to be heard. Yeah. And, and, and I think are heading, you know, we used to the sports bar interviews, for the Awa, they go to champs chanson rich human burn, Guinan, Greg, it'd be there. They promote the shows and yeah, you knew Kurt was so the room revolved around him. Even when you know, he wouldn't give me the time of day when I tried to talk to him, the room revolved or. And you know, he gave that or up. Does Roman reigns? Have that in a way that others do where that where he's aware of it, too. And he can turn that into something on camera that works. Necessarily. I think, honestly, I think I might have in verse one to make aware that they that he was kind of the blue Chipper. Yeah. You know, he didn't really think I think he didn't really think I think he's wondering when the hell they were going to do something with. Yeah. You know, I think you're getting a little disturbed their little, you know, fest rated. Yeah. I just told them. Hey, don't worry, which. You're going to you're going to be a big star. Man, just. Don't you know, don't screw up. I would you where do you worry the most about him in terms of what category, you have to what check check Mark, what box you have to check to be a top star promos ruthless aggression behind the scenes managing career. Well, in ring performance durability, like what, what box on the sheet that top stars have to check? Are you most concerned or has he not proven himself at least two? Well, here's another chance to yeah. Oh, where are you most concerned? I don't it doesn't mean you, you, are you think he's gonna fail. But where have you seen the leafed evidence or proof that he's going to check that box? I this connection with him. My phone keeps going off. And I know it's got guts been killed. He's been blown. My phone up like like half an hour on this. We can do a wrap up and you can take it. Yeah. His connection with the people. Yeah, yep. Yeah. See if that clicks when the, when the red light is on so to speak. Yeah. I. Sean, you don't wanna over overstay. It's time to take it home. To right off into the sunset. Steve Austin, says time to take it on Sean time. This is great. I e time flies when we're on doing this, then I could talk forever with. Yeah. Absolutely. Sure. Go have a good good show and good weekend. And a good time. And, and we'll try to have you back onto. Thanks. You know as always, I enjoyed talking shop with you. Excellent. Thank you so much. Really hope absolutely up as always. Well, thanks to the VIP members for joining us here on the BF. You have to show got a lot more lot more time with Sean today than I anticipated given that he's got stuff going on tonight and this weekend. So, yeah, good stuff. Good feedback, and have them on again time. So thank through sport VIP until next time. We'd tell her signing up. 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'Valentine's Views' podcast: Matt Waldman on Giants' WR targets

Big Blue View

1:01:54 hr | 1 year ago

'Valentine's Views' podcast: Matt Waldman on Giants' WR targets

"Podcast listeners. We are amazing avenue. The espy nation New York mets site. I'm Chris McShane and every week Brian Salvator and I discussed the current state of the mets Automated Avenue audio the show. We try to look at the mets from a somewhat logical point of view and not get too deep into panic city. We also answer your emails give weekly music recommendations and try not to get too frustrated with the team. You can find the show on Apple podcasts on stitcher on spotify wherever you get your podcasts. And let's go mets. Hello giants fans and welcome to a new edition of the Valentine's podcast. Today's episode is one that that I look forward to every year. Pre-draft always get a chance to talk to Matt. Waldman of the rookie scouting portfolio and Matt will be joining us today. Here in a minute just a word of advice if you guys haven't Haven't listened to any of MATT'S PODCASTS. At the rookie scouting portfolio or any of the interviews. That that Matt and I have done over the years Buckling because I think we might be here for a little while so So so let's without any any further ado. Let Me Bring Bring Matt in Matt. How you do and how you been. How's everybody everybody's doing good at and You know have everybody staying safe out there all. We're we're trying we're trying we're doing the best we can. Of course safe. You're like me you spend a lot of time working from home anyway. So so things don't So so that part of life doesn't change a whole lot. Yeah Yeah I'm pretty much the same way so you know. People are getting used to working from home. I'm thinking well. It's a typical year. You know typical mark really typical March April for me other than the fact that if you do keep up with the news. It's been extraordinarily atypical. That it has the typical part for me. Is that you know two rooms over in my house. I have my wife now sitting here working from home so So that's a little different but We're all we're all doing what we have to do and the NFL is is rolling along. We've been through most of free agency at this point. They're they're pushing ahead with plans for the NFL draft which will be virtual. It'll be different. There won't be fans but there will still be in. Nfl draft and as usual there still a lot of hysteria in various teams fan bases as they discuss who who their teams should draft. What they should do and we're going to go through a lot of that Here in terms of the giants you know Matt. Your your major area of expertise. What you spend a lot of time on is the the skill positions. And that's what we're going to focus on here today. Mostly wide receiver. But I do have to ask you the giants. Have the fourth overall pick. They're they're not taking a quarterback they're not only. I would doubt very very much that they're taking a wide receiver. The big debate seems to be between Clemson. Do Everything defender Isaiah Simmons and taking an offensive tackle. And and if you're if it's you on that On that conference call you know making net choice. What do you do for the giants at forum? I'm curious because I get I get so many different opinions on this and it's split down the middle what you would do. I can imagine it is you know and and when you look at a guy like. Isaiah Simmons Certainly. He loved the athletic ability that he provides and the fact that he can cover tight ends and some wide receivers up the scene up to twenty twenty five yards with a drop. And you like the fact that he's type of guy that could spy quarterback and run some quarterbacks down as they try to break the pocket and get to the edge You know the real question is what position does he play and and to me. What's important about Isaiah? Simmons is having a really good plan for how you're going to implement him to to maximize strengths minimizes weaknesses. And and also really where you are as a team and when I look at the giants I mean certainly you have. You know you have an up and coming player and we'll Hernandez you know Zeitler and and sold her our solid. If not very good but then you still. You're looking at these guys. Mid To late career most likely in terms of the span of what? You're looking for from an offensive lineman that's kind of a breather at you have gates on at right tackle and you think about what is it that this. What is it that you want to do with this team? And and it seems to me that you have a young quarterback you have a young stud running back and it seems like the emphasis should probably if it were if it were me to emphasize the the offensive line to to really try and solidify this. Make sure there's depth make sure that there's up and coming talent because this offense is a young strength. That's how you got to have it and and I think that you know you need to give Daniel Jones time in the pocket. You know one of his. We've talked about him extensively last year and while the weaknesses that kind of showed up late in the year with him is low. Bit Of tone. Deafness in the pocket Some skill you know in terms of being able to manage pressure or being able to to send pressure quickly enough deuce in the amount of pressure that Daniel John owns deals with would be very strong. It would be very good thing having a bean having a strong an offensive line. That saquon Barkley is used in a manner where he can be working out in the flats or working. The scene or up the sideline as often as possible as a receipt. Really the answer is offensive line. And there are some good offensive lineman in the first round you know ranging from Andrew Tall lose one of the most solid two guys like MCI Becton to Tristan works in you. Know there's about four or five offensive line often. That are very strong in this class and I just think that build on. That should probably be the priority. Because you've already started building there and with quarterbacks you need to keep them clean you know and the cleaner you keep them the better off you are in terms of their development if you start hitting them on a they start getting hit. You know more than they should. That's the position where you can see regression and you can see decision making start to decline And then also difficulties being able to react to pressure amon overreacting to it. And that's something that cannot harm permanently ingrained in certain players. A guy like back in the past. There was a buffalo bills quarterback by the Trent Edwards. Who WAS AT STANFORD. And and he was known for his toughness in the bucket. I mean e- Atta horrific Offensive Line at Stanford to the point that when those USC teams with you know the the Reggie Bush Lyndale White Steve Smith you know Matt Liner ears were. They had a you know they were the Alabama and the Lsu of the NCAA when they were facing that type of team in USC THE STANFORD LINEMEN. There was tape of them. Literally argue with each other during a play and allowing China awards to get sacked. He was a tough guy. Though played through a lot of that but at buffalo you know he started look promising and then they were not able to protect him and once he got concussed by believe it was a hit by Adrian Wilson from the Arizona Cardinals His career pretty much as a starter ended because he came back. And you could tell he just. He re overreacted the pressure on a consistent basis and he could never really be anything more than a journeyman backup. And that's not the type of thing you want to have happened with a guy like Daniel Jones So being able to fortify the edge having depth at the edge and having youth Promising youth at that level will be helpful especially as players get hurt. Because you know I in Athens in the League and when you can provide some level of death along offensive line with talent It can make a difference in your season. I down here in Atlanta. And I'll end up with just saying that. You Know Matt Ryan. They added to offense Lineman for him. you know last year and one of them you know it was the Washington kid who was You know had I believe some sort of heart surgery. That was kind of a follow up procedure and then he was hurt early in the year and he didn't come back till later. And you could see how much that offense that offense struggled early in mid year without a solid offensive line and when they were able to bring him back in he started playing and he played well. You could just see the lift that the entire offense ad because of his presence and I think that's very important it was caleb mcgarry and Chris Lindstrom. Were the two that they added at right guard. Chris Chris Lindstrom a right guard Boston College and Caleb mcgarry on Washington and when those two guys got into the lineup and and you could just see the difference in how that offense played and I think it's I think that applies very well to the giants especially if you know. Mid-year injuries occurred having that that is important as well as growing for the future. Because like we said the the age of those players are at that mid to late career span. Yeah you're pretty much where I met Matt where I think it's there. I call it sort of their bottom line. Responsibility is to to give Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. Every chance to be the players that they should be or could be I WanNa talk about a WANNA turn the conversation. No at this point to to the other skill positions to more. You know the things that you spend most of your time studying in end that would be you know. We're not gonNA talk about quarterback. Obviously there's no need for us to do that at this point we'll talk about wide receiver mostly. We'll talk a little bit about running back and tight end. You know later in the draft and where I want to start is is right here. I tend to think you everybody. Focus for the giants on the offensive line. They focus on adding defensive. Play mayor makers they they sort of obsess about. How are the giants going to add to the pass rush? They're probably not going to be able to To get chase young in this draft. There they haven't been able to To sign it Avian. Clowney they're not GONNA be able to make a trade for the for the kid from Jacksonville whose name I always butcher. So I'm not even God announces. I'm not even GONNA try. I just I give up because every time I do it I'd I butcher it and somebody on twitter calls me out so I'm just I give up but But one of the underrated needs the way that I look at. It is wide receiver in where I want to start is. Let's actually start with what the giants have I mean? They have the veteran guys tate. They have you know Sterling Shepherd. Who's got the the scary concussion issues from last year? And my you know pick my first question for you is about dairy asleep and I guess my people look at him and they think could he be a number one wide receiver in. Is that if people look at him and say well. He's the he's the number one he's the guy. Is that putting too much of an expectation on Darius Slayton. I think it is at this point but Certainly the physical skills are there for him to become a primary wide receiver in the NFL and while the stats show that promised to believe that he can become that I think that he's going to need another year or two because again it to be a top receiver in the NFL. You really need to be able to to be consistently good against the top quarterbacks in the League against tight man coverage to be able to defeat bracketed coverage to be able to read coverage in a way where you're on the same page with your quarterback And understand the complexities of that. And I think that there's still more to prove with his game. There's more for him to develop so giving you know he may be a guy that can offer you some of those physical skills and some of those plays where you're not going to win the ball being able to beat Beat some top corners on occasion on some deeper routes Especially with the Eight. A play action or double moves or any type of play. That's more of a constraint type of play but I think overall you still need to give him a little bit of time and you're also GonNa need and I think also it doesn't hurt to be able to add another receiver in this very talented class. Who CAN Who can develop alongside where you can do some rotating of positions and you still have golden tate where tate I think. Maybe we still. At the end of his career stills. Bill is still able to offer some possibilities in terms of what he can do. Both inside and outside and you can play the game as an offense where you rotate the receivers to find good match ups for them in a way where you may not have to lean on saying alright. Here's you know you know when you had Odell Beckham you could. You could Kinda just say this is who he's going to be lined up against. It doesn't matter we're still gonNA throw him the ball he'll be open Whereas I think that that the giants don't quite have that right now But maybe in a couple of years a guy like Slayton or if they do draft another another player from this rich class You know within the first two to four rounds. They might find that guy as well. So let's talk about a scenario here. One of the things that Dave gettleman has been known for everybody sort of nashes their teeth and looks at cattleman with the number. Four pick ince's all he really should trade down but but he's never done that. You know in seven drafts is in. Nfl General Manager one of the things though that it gettleman has done consistently in both Carolina and New York in which he did this last year with the Andre Baker. One of the things that he has done consistently is take some of the draft assets that he's able to accumulate target a player or two and be aggressive in moving up to get a player that that he believes in or to try to fill a position that he thinks he really needs to fill and one of the scenarios that that I see as as possible for the giants would be if they're going to trade up. Let's say they get their offensive lineman early if they're going to trade up. I would look at wide receiver. Which as I said I think is a really underrated need with you. Know with the ages of tate with the injury history with with sterling shepherd I could easily see them trading back in a late in the first round to get a wide receiver in a couple of the names that I've heard will start with these two players and then maybe we'll talk about other guys. You would see as possible targets for a move like that. The two names that I keep hearing just in Jefferson of lsu and Denzel mims of Baylor. So why don't we start with with you talking about those two players? Yeah it's funny. Those are two of my favorite players in this class. And I think that they're very good ex- if they were going to The gentleman is going to trade up and try and you know parlay some of those assets for a player of impact. I think those who can deliver impact early on and develop into Really solid strong starters and really be maybe long-term being upgrade to what the giants have. I really think that they they can be an upgrade to what the giants have within two to three years. Maybe even immediately depending on how they're used I think let's start with Justin Jefferson who I really think is probably my favorite receiver in this class. He's a he's just a smart intuitive football player. He's he played a lot on the outside earlier in his career. And you can see the skills to be able to make the hard breaks. You're looking forward to to to run the timing perimeter routes he has various he. He's very skilled on the boundary in terms of being able to stay in in the boundary and be able to make plays at its edge He can take contact. He certainly has an array of skills being able to be press coverage. it may not be the his greatest strength as a player but he is skilled enough that he can win outside Big Hands you know. Vacuums the ball up very well and he's very good after the catch has excellent peripheral vision to be able to you know. Avoid Defenders has great timing in that respect especially in the middle of the field when there's multiple guys coming at you from different angles. So you know obviously you know. Jefferson can be very good perimeter player. But what we saw last year at Lsu was at one of his greatest strengths playing in the slot and Jefferson excels in the slot and for number of reasons. One is that he's very good at the option routes routes where he basically running against a linebacker or safety or nickel corner. Where you get the you get the option to go inside or outside or get a little bit deeper breakback short he on. He has a good feel with his quarterback of how to read the defense and be on the same page. He's a very patient receiver. So he can set up those defenders with the with the footwork that you need to be able to get off the line of scrimmage and be able to bait the defender and and time things in a manner where you're reading the field. He does at work very well. But then in addition to that he's an excellent blocker and that's an underrated aspect of wide receiver. Play especially if you're gonNA play on the inside and there's tape of him being able to handle. Sec caliber athletes at linebacker. Or safety where he can wall them off he punches well. He's ABLE TO SUSTAIN HIS HANDS. Even against larger defenders in the two hundred twenty five to two hundred forty pound range. So you're seeing you know you're not going to ask him to absolutely dominating pancake guys like that but he technically can hold his own and he's tough enough to be able to do the job where you know if a defender is not doesn't have his ears pinned back and he's really you know aggressive on the play early on. Jefferson's the type of player that can get the early advantage. And then keep the defender from being able to you. Know redirect or be able to you know regain his intensity to bail to his advantage. And so you know. Jefferson's very good as a blocker and then most of all because he's so good with the patient aspect of working with the quarterback. He's probably one of the best receivers in this class when the play breaks down and being able to find the open space whether it's in zone or it's one on one. He has a really good knack for efficiently. Making one move to be able to break into the open area and be able to create a nice target for quarterback when the quarterback has to break the pocket or the play goes off script. And so when you add all that together you get a A wonderfully versatile player who can has just enough speed that. If you need them to play split end you probably could get him. Get some work from him there but he can be a flanker easily in an offense especially because of his after the catch skills And then you have a dynamic player from the slot so he would be a guy that even if you know Sterling Shepard's able to be healthy again and and he's playing well. Jefferson can kind of spot play behind Sterling shepherd he can also play out. You know. Play the flanker Um role. He someone who to me reminds me of a combination of of traits that you would see from Keenan Allen and from DJ charge of Jacksonville. Jaguars where you've got that fields trees. He's a faster version of Keenan Allen In terms of an athlete He may not be as quick as Alan. But he's got that savviness about his game in terms of the technique the footwork understanding how to be patient. And so he's a terrific. He's a terrific player and he's one of my top five receivers than this very wise. Get a guy like him. Now Denzel mims is is an is an absolutely fun player. He's my number two receiver in class And I've had them pretty much that high for months so it's interesting that he's starting to get that kind of Pre draft affection that you're seeing from a lot of from a lot of analysts out there The Baylor product use six. Two two zero seven. He had an absolutely stellar combine in terms of the in terms of the metrics that he showed. But what's really impressive about him? You know the athletic parts of the icing on the cake. He's as great short area quickness strong acceleration and then terrific long speed but he developed throughout his career. You could literally. I have a video that I showed on my youtube channel. Mount Waldman's ours. Film room that I probably spend. I think I it's plenty of thirty forty minute. Long video where I show his development over three years and you start to see his development. As a row runner specially with press coverage Es Es a skilled press coverage receiver for the college game. He someone that understands That he's had to develop different types of foot work different types of hand usage how to combine them in different ways And then also learning how to read the defender and setup defenders as the game goes along and as a that's an a craft wide receiver play that often takes a couple of years and some receivers never really get it. That's why you get some guys who were really athletic. But they're kind a. They're kind of like a hammer in the offense they're just like a a a single dimensional tool because they can't release against different types of coverages That you need them to and you have to kind of scheme them to get open Mims is the type of guy that I think can develop into a primary player because of the fact that you can see him setting up defenders whether it's off man coverage or whether it's tight man coverage he shows a skill to be physical he shows skills to be able to avoid the first man he can work inside he has the he has the physicality to win coverage. You know win. Plays where it's tightly covered or to take kits and come down with the ball. He probably makes he an CD. Lan probably make some of the most impressive catches on targets. That are away from their frame that I've seen from anybody this year and and really they rank well enough in that area. That may be any year there. You know they're they would be on a list of maybe my top ten the top fifteen So you know guys who've made just impressive catches whether it's low and away whether it's having to catch the catch the ball as well as wrap your arms around the defenders harm while he's got it reached into your body while you're you know kind of leaning low away High point catches being widowed. One Hand the ball where your ear momentum is heading one direction you have to turn your arm in the opposite direction of that momentum very skilled in that regard so highly gives you what Beckham used to be able to provide where you can take a target. That's catchable but not necessarily pinpoint accurate and kind of erase that lack of pinpoint accuracy with your athletic skill. Mims has that Jefferson can do a lot of that but it's not at the level of what mims provides So you know I would say that mims is also pretty good player after the catch Certainly he's A. He's a slightly better athlete than than Jefferson in the open field But maybe not quite as a aware and not quite as versatile. But if you're looking for a guide to be your split and your flanker he can probably do either of those rolled pretty well and you can interchange him in Slayton And then you can keep a guy like golden tate on the inside and have him in Sterling Shepard kind of rotate. Well as you know and you can kind of rotate. All of these guys in men's is really shown that he's at the he's ready to perform at his level of potential in his level. Potential is a you know a borderline proble type of wide receiver. I'd say both E. N. And Jefferson have that ceiling to their game But I think both can right away. I think both can be productive And can deliver what you probably got. Outta slate and last year. I think they can probably deliver that. But on a more consistent basis where you're not getting the absolute highs and and then the the you know the the valid lays that may be slate in God but again that also depends on quarterback play you know and and the health of the offensive line and the and the functionality. The offense but if all those things come together both those players are capable of consistent production. All Right Matt so yawned beyond that round one scenario. Obviously you were looking at maybe day. Two Middle Round selections and we know there's there's a lot of A lot of depth in this class. You've talked about that at all you know. Every analyst talks about how how many quality players there are in this draft. Give me just give me some of your favorite guys who you think should be available second day. Maybe you know maybe even fourth fifth round in this draft a handful of your favorite guys you think you can have long-term productive. Nfl careers sure You know we're GONNA go with probably one of the best but also one of the riskiest and that would probably be a guy you'd find an early early mid to that's viscous inau Colorado the six foot two hundred twenty seven pound receiver. Who played a lot of on the wing as well as more in the Backfield for Colorado? But this is a guy with terrific. Upside You know if you look at his combine numbers. You only see that he had like they only did the bench press in the forty. Well he was. He ran the forty at four five eight. Which doesn't sound all that impressive until you realize it. He did it with a sports hernia and got surgery afterwards. He wanted to run the combine before he got surgery So and and that's the big issue with him. As is he gonNA be able to stay healthy at a rotator cuff injury? He had this sports oriented injuries at. He's at a few injuries during his career and people wonder if this is a guy who can stay healthy and I would say the answer is as long as they're not going to try and turn him into You Know Saquon Barclays backup. I don't think you're going to have an issue He's an underrated route runner. Stephen Mantegazza quarterback for Colorado is not really a great NFL prospect. And was not a you know. He was a solid college quarterback but solid to me is he can make one read and if the pressure wasn't on him he was. He didn't self destruct but some pressure pressure made himself destruct to a point where should not really didn't get the full range of his expression in terms of what his skills can do But terrific after the catch Type of player. Who you can use in certain gadgets situations kind of the way that you could use Golden Tate. But I think that he could. He's a type guy that can overpower defensive backs but also run pass amis a lot faster than his time showed. Brian Edwards is an interesting guy because he might drop to the third round You know there are people that have concerns about his hands. I watched him enough last year that I feel like I didn't really see the hands issues last year The year before they certainly showed up a little bit more. But he's a six to twelve The you know. The highs of his game is that he can make some of those same plays that a guy like Denzel mims does. He's very physical after the catch. He's tough to be able to to really jostle around or reroute So as a very experienced receiver who has you know who led South Carolina in terms of their production? He's their most productive receiver in Carolina in South Carolina. History Khanna reminds me of a Javon Walker type of player in terms of the type of style that he plays with You know another guy that could fall and be very nice. And very nice players t higgins You know he's physical. He's a more linear guy. Where you know you're GONNA ask him. You're not going to be asking him to run. A lot of routes that have hard breaks back to the quarterback on. You know you know you know in in the intermediate and short game. But he's a he's a guy that you can do a lot of good work with on crossers slants over routes in the middle of the field seen routes in addition to you know some of the double moves and fade routes on the outside Very combative player Con- you know the guy that he reminds me of is he plays bigger than size and he's and he's any handles at physical play. Well Guy reminds me of his Hakeem Knicks in terms of what Nick's provided the giants You know at the peak of his career. I think T- Higgins. Has that kind of plain style to them. And then you know mid to later rounds. I mean you know certainly Van. Jefferson gets a lot of gets a lot of love. He's Sean Jefferson's son. The former chargers and lions and patriots wide receiver. Who's now in? Nfl Wide Receiver Coach Band. Jefferson has excellent route running. He has some work to do with his hands You know he the way. He positions his hands towards certain levels of targets They're not uniform to where the target is Arrive in any fights the ball a little bit But his route running might be the best in this group So you know you could get a a terrific slot receiver and reliable player in the middle of the field who can develop into that and maybe give you what. The giants got a little bit or the Patriots. Got a little bit out of Julian Edelman. You might be able to get a player. Was some of that skill as a route runner. Not so much after the catch. But if you're going to talk about you know mid to late round guys. Quintas safest is a guy out of Wisconsin six feet two hundred and two pounds and he ran a four seven three forty at the combine but then later ran a a a four five six Forty at his pro day and that's closer to the truth with him a much closer to the truth to be honest and you look at his his twenty shuttle and his and his vertical leap. And you can see. That's the case. This guy I think is the steelers. The class He is extremely physical. Uses hands unbelievably well. At the top of his stems into the break routinely gets separation. He can wins up. He tracks the ball as well as anybody in this class. Whether it's over his head whether it's turning from one shoulder to the other shoulder Than having to make that transition while you're running away from the quarterback thirty forty fifty yards outfield and he's terrific at the catch point. I'm an e can take heart contact. He can win the ball against tight coverage where You know the way that he tracks it or is able to maintain focus even after maybe he takes contact and the ball's not where it needs to be any has to tip it to himself very good in that area. He strong enough that I mean this is a guy who lifted you know. Did Twenty three reps on the bench press as a two hundred and two pound wide receiver That's the most. I think any receiver did in this class. And it's more than most running backs do and this is a guy that I've seen him against Oregon where he absolutely manhandled the corner bags and they have some of the best. Cornerback prospects Who are underclassmen In the NCAA and be able to bounce off outside hits from outside linebackers in the open field where he just shrugged them off I'm real excited about his play. And Jeff Okuda the the cornerback for Ohio State. One of the top quarterback prospects in his class. They asked him and I don't remember the name of the other Ohio State quarterback but they ask those guys separately in different times of the at different points of the combine. Who was the best wide receiver prospect that they faced In their career and jet both of them said Hands Down Quintas Sivas and they face some pretty good players that Ohio state Including you know the likes of players like it. Some of those Clemson wide receivers. Who you know like T- Higgins like Justin Ross sewer who are very good and they said Sivas you know easily so a guy like that could be a very strong play if you're going to take a bet on upside athletic upside Donovan People's Jones and other guy who is an excellent returner He certainly can win the ball in the air. Very well As terrific vision in the open field Could play the slot or flanker. He can definitely add a boost to your return game. I'm is just a matter of whether or not. He's a product of plane with subpar quarterback. Play at Michigan. An offense that really hasn't produced You know strong passing statistics since Jim Harbaugh arrived on because that's not really his game In terms of what they liked to do on offense but he might be able to outgrow that. And then you know some guys that you know and then I just a couple of quick hits a guy like He you know who would be another one For a speedster you can look a guy like quiz Watkins. Who's four four five? Three speed out of southern miss can win above the rim a little bit but kind of limited as an all around player Isaiah Hodgkin's is a a big slot? Guy was slick routes. You could play a little flanker and very good in the red zone And I think that he just needs to get a little bit stronger on lock what he does best in terms of his route running. A Gabriel Davis Interesting player out of UCF OOOO who has the speed and the short area change of direction quickness but not great acceleration. So if you can get him up to speed and continue to have him running where you know over routes post route skinny posts deep crossers. He's really skilled on that at that level. Or routes where he can make one solid break you know on the perimeter. So He's a guy that can get deep for you. Who can win the ball in that respect? But YOU'RE NOT GONNA have run double moves you're not gonNA have them run You know some of the entire tree but if you can get him or you're not gonNA get the greatest production out of him running comebacks or hitches or hooks but you can get or curl routes but he'll get what he needs to on those routes but if you ask him to run after the catch getting him to break across the middle of the field it could be very strong that respect so those are some of the guys. There's so many that we could talk about but those guys are Kinda stand out to me in the second day through the later rounds all right matt. Hey thank you for that rundown. Let me yet. Let's do this. Let's take a short break year for a word from our sponsors it espy nation. When we come back on the other side of the break a WanNa talk a little bit about Late round or middle round a running backs and tight ends. That's kind of a lower priority for the giants but You know an area where maybe in the later part of the draft the they might look to to supplement what they have so. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back and do that are a giants fans at Valentine back here on. Valentine's views podcast and we are talking with Matt Waldman of the Rookie Scouting portfolio as we go through some of the Some of the wide receiver running back tight end options for the giants in the upcoming draft. And we spend our time you know in the first part of the show talking about wide receiver running back and tight end is is a lower priority for the giants you know quite obviously but still an area where where they could supplement what they have with you know with a middle to To later round choice in the draft met. Let's talk about running back first and looking at what the giants have obviously with with the stud back in Saquon Barkley. Who's going to take you know? The majority of the carries no matter who else he's playing with. The giants added veteran. Free Agent Dion Lewis. Who gives them some some pass receiving some ability to pass block? He has some running ability. But he's not a guy you're gonNA WANNA pound up the middle. He's not a guy. I don't think that you're going to want to To carry the ball a lot I think wing Goldman is probably you? Don't he very well could be a guy that doesn't even make the roster depending on who else the giants add at that position but when I look at what Barclay does in what Lewis brings to the table. I keep thinking that they're space on this giants roster for a Banger for a bigger back for a physical guy who could maybe take. Some of those carries between the tackles who could be short yardage guy may be and just take some of that workload off of off of saquon. The thing that drove me insane. Last you're watching Pat Shurmur. Offense was how many times the giants just handed the ball to Saquon Barkley and asked him to go straight up the middle so obviously they have a new offense this year. But I'm curious about some of the guys that you think could handle that sort of inside physical short yardage role. Yeah and no go ahead. Yeah and there are and there are a number of them. I mean this is a pretty rich class in terms of the talent. That's at this running back position there's depths to it and so guys who can probably get on the third day Early third day ranging to draft free agents will kind of go from there One of the one of my favorite early third day picks is Joshua Kelly Outta Ucla's five ten to twelve. Looks like he can add even a little bit more weight to his game. And he's a twitchy downhill runner with good vision Strong hands and he's a guy that's really been under the radar He's someone that I honestly think could be a starter in this league and be a very good starter. But because of the fact that he's he's had you know he he played he transferred last year to Ucla and started last year and started this year. Stillie there hasn't been a great team and so he's underrated and when you look at his game I mean he has long speed stretch the field. He has excellent short area acceleration in quickness. Um but he reads different types of schemes. Very well so he scheme versatile he can work between the tackles without a problem and again like I said he can get stronger Another one who if you want if you're looking for production right away but maybe the upside isn't great for him like with a good offensive line. He can be a very productive starter. I'm so something happened the Barclay. I think this guy. Could you know step right in and play? Well he might not be a superstar. But it's a guy by the name of Keyshawn van Vanderbilt Another underrated smart back. Who works well? Between the tackles has good contact balance Has the speed to be able to you. Know get into that open field. And maybe he's not gonNA blow people away from crazy angles like Saquon Barkley can but if you get him you know downhill and into the secondary. He's GonNa gain a lot of yardage and he's a guy who can catch the ball reasonably well He provides some upside as a pass protector. He's going to develop along those lines I think that he's the type of bag. You can have a long career as one who can start if you need him to and deliver that production But if if you're on a team where he's the starter he might also be the guy that's Kinda looking over his shoulder every year to see whether or not the team is going to draft a bigger name Guy But he's just good enough that he might be able to hold a lot of those players off. Rico Dowdell is an interesting player out of South Carolina. Because he's you know he's kind of a Kareem Hunt Kenneth Dick's tied the player type of player. Who can do a little bit of everything can run outside? He has that. Short area quickness and movement to make multiple defenders miss and create yards on his own He's he's just a very slick mover in terms of how he plays. Which also you know you think of guys like Barkley Levian Bell. In that respect he can really set up defenders in space He's a good receiver He has he. The route running. Needs some work but when you send him on you know on some of the the the seem routes or wheel routes or Bulla routes as well as the you know the the normal check down routes he can handle all that right now and he's very strong hands on and can win. Contested situations This year with him has been injury And he's had a number of you know he's had a broken leg he's had Sports Hernia he's heads A minor knee sprain. But he's had a number of issues that is kind of held him back. And the Carolina South Carolina Staff. Really thought that he was capable of elevating his game beyond the level that he already showed and I think that's true from what I've seen on film. It's just that he hasn't been consistent and I think this team didn't feel like maybe he worked at his game as much as he needed to. Because when you're calling out player in the median sane he could take it to another level if he really applies himself oftentimes. That's an indication that they don't feel like the player is doing the the work he's capable of. They feel like he's an underachiever. But you know there. There have been guys come into the League who've figured that out and have applied themselves well and Donald is one of those could be really good another guy that could be. Maybe had early day three. It'll be interesting to see how far teams reach. Form IS ANTONIO GIBSON OUT OF MEMPHIS. He's a six to two hundred and twenty one pound Blair with four three nine speed in the forty who had three hundred forty combined yards against. Smu And he played wide receiver renting back and and was a return specialist and he was a good enough wide receiver. That you know. He's a guy that could develop in that regard he runs. You know some heartbreaks pretty well works in the middle of the field can win the ball away from his frame well but I think he's better after really looking at his game a little bit more. He's better as a running back. I mean he's got the size the contact balance though the versatility he just has to develop a little bit more skill with different types of run blocking schemes and that may take him a little bit of time on but the upside is there for him then to let two guys who. I think could serve as Bangers one right away Michael Warren out of Cincinnati. He's kind of a C. J. Anderson type The nod extremely fast but quick-footed really really tough between the tackles and terms of being able to have strong contact balance pushed the pile fine those creases and be creative in know within the tight confines of the box and he's also an excellent receiver. He's a guy that Cincinnati often used in the slot in pivotal down this and distance situations and had him run option routes because they felt like he was their best chance in certain short yardage late game situations. And he's tough. He's type A guy that can get nicked up in a game come back in and produce at a high level. I think he's probably going to be available as an undrafted free agent But I think he's a god kind of like former undrafted free agency J. Anderson can deliver for you especially behind good line in the last guy. I'll mention is probably the other than Joshua. Kelly who I mentioned is just second to him in terms of the overall talent that I've assessed of the group of guys that we just covered and that's a former South Carolina back who wound up at Byu. This year's names. Thais on Williams is a former four-star recruit out of North Carolina who transferred to South Carolina and South Carolina was kind of messed with their running back hair cell so he played. I think two years there and then transferred to Byu and he had a stretch before games at Byu. This year. That really I think if he were able to stay healthy and continue through he would have been a guy that would have gotten drafted and maybe even drafted you know early third day. He's a six foot two hundred and twenty pound banger. Who you know as quick fluid catches the ball well but he tore his ACL. You know week four He kinda reminds me physically. I don't know if you remember this guy in he's kind of infamous in the NFL because he failed a drug test in the US Day. A product known as the original was called. The original whiz. Innovator I'm Ontario Smith In Ontario Smith was a really dynamic back with a good low center of gravity out of Oregon who played for the Minnesota Vikings and looked like he was going to be a stud before he he essentially tested himself out of the League. Williams is a guy who has at Plays with a low center of gravity. Plays with a lot of power has enough speed to get into the open field Wins the ball as a receiver and just a smart runner who I think finally got a chance to play for a team that that I think clearly saw what his skills were about. I mean and I say that about South Carolina not really knowing because there were lots of talk about the reason he got benched after taking over for an injured doddle was because of a fumble that he had and then he needed to hold onto the ball better. He only had two fumbles during his career and only one of them came when he was with. South Carolina so and Carolina China has a reputation among scouts at least in the past of not necessarily getting the most out of its players and kind of being a program underachieved and how it developed guys And some of that can also be where you interchange guys to the point. Where you're you're not really assessing what they can do well and putting them in the positions to succeed and I think Williams guy that if the team can feel like they can be patient for a year Or they feel like his had that you know. He's going to be nine months removed from the ACL injury in July. And they feel like that he his progression is good enough in terms of his rehab. That he can compete this summer and I think he will be if if all signs are good. Then they got themselves You know potential steel as an undrafted free agent all right Matt so the other position I think we need to talk about his tight end now. The giants obviously have Evan Ingram and again as always there are. There are injury concerns with with. Ingram durability concerns the giants have Have spent part of the off. Season collecting tight ends veteran. Guy Like Levine. To eye to eye. Lolo on that brought back Eric Tomlinson. They saw red ellison retire. They have Cayden Smith. They have a couple of other young tight ends on the roster. They have a lot of guys but what I don't see at the tight end position especially with you know with the questions about Ingram's durability what I don't see it the tight end position or a lot of long term answers so again. It's another position. I don't expect the giants to Go and draft a tight end. You know in in the second round even in the third round. I think they just have other priorities other things that they have to do so again. We're talking about data three tight ends. GimMe Gimme a few guys. You think could be could develop into starting caliber. Tight ends day three range. You know guys who who could maybe be part of the long term solution for the giants at that spot. Sure you know and and one guy. We didn't talk about wide receiver. Who could wind up being tight end kind of in that Evan? Ingram mold would be notre. Dame's Chase Klay Pool. So if they decide they want to draft a receiver but they feel like he can provide them. Maybe that Evan Ingram Jared Cook type of play clay pools a guy that we probably should have mentioned earlier but for day. Three guys the one that really sticks out the most is. Ucla'S DEVON OSCEOLA Z. Who is a six three two hundred fifty seven pound Tied in who really came off one strong year because he was toiling behind. Caleb Wilson who was you know statistically very strong college tight end but really more of a move a move tied and kind of more of just a big slow wide receiver. Who's who who's going to have trouble probably making the NFL roster but had a lot of reporter. With the likes of Josh Rosen and there is no and all the way up until last year when he you know. He was kind of their raining guys so they weren't GonNa Bench him for. Maybe a guy like Ozzy Ozzy who's a more promising. Nfl fell prospect but you know was still working his way arrived later at UCLA. So you know. Wilson had seniority in that. Respect but Ozzy Ozzy is you know. Ease a decent blocker. Econo- reminds me of a mix of guys like Randy McMichael who used to play with the dolphins on a Georgia and algae crumpled former Falcons player. Who was a good run? Blocker could really do nice work after the catch in the short and intermediate ranges field and Osceola has that skill. He's a type of guy that has good quickness. Good footwork works. The middle of the field. Wells receiver has the suddenness to be able to make those quick breaks. You need against linebackers. So I'm a big fan of what I think. He could become an probably. He's the best option of those day. Three guys bryson Hopkins is an interesting player. He's six five to forty five. Probably can add a little bit. More Weight is dad. Was Brad Hopkins. The former left tackle for the Tennessee. Titans when they had Steve McNair and that Super Bowl team He's a better block than you would expect he. He has some work to do to bulk up and be able to win the physical matchups but technically yes. I'm pretty Nice. Skills in terms of using the one arm technique being able to slide and and stay square with players but he's best fit as an h back. Who can really lead block in the run game and you can use a little bit more as an h back lead lead blocker also an edge blocker and he has terrific short area acceleration So type of guy that you can kind of leak the ball out too. And he can get yards after the catch You know two other guys that I'll give you a few other guys here. That could be interesting. Thad boss Randy mosses son out of. Lsu He's not a fast guy he's extremely sure handed And he runs good routes. He's the type of guy that you he could win in the short intermediate range when you throw targets up to let him win But he's mostly going to function for you as a blocker and his a short area receiver. They have a lot of those guys already. But he's kind of a Dennis Pitta Heath Miller type of player who can give you some dynamic skill in the red zone But also be a fantastic blocker on. I think he's less likely to be on that radar But guys who might be able to grow into more Jose that Guevara out of Cincinnati Former wide receiver pecan add. Maybe another ten to fifteen pounds. He can work. At the line of scrimmage and not just be an age back but also wind down field. You're Delaney Walker type of player at least aspiring in that area. And then you know jared Pinkney Auto Vanderbilt many concerned him to be atop Titan class but he kinda showed you kind of regressed last year. Production wise so a lot of people are going to be on that but he's also a slower player but he's kind of a you know you think of Zack. Miller as an example of a player that that he that he could be a productive guy in the slower range but still very good blocker enough short area quickness to be able to stretch the seem And then maybe the last guy who might have the most upside and if you're going to take a chance on a guy late in the draft. This might be the guy to do that. And that's Cheyenne O'Grady out of Arkansas. He's he's a hard running. Tied will excellent hands toughness in the face of contact But he's been suspended twice by his team. is former teammate. Forty niners linebacker. Drake Greenlaw actually called him out for. Skipping practices went to high school together and call him out for skipping practice and skipping class And they basically team after suspending him twice essentially quote unquote greed. A mutually to part company at the end of the season So he didn't even really finish at his time at the program but when you watch his game. He has worked at develop as a route runner in blocker. But the physical skills are there and he's type of guy that if he can mature and a lot of guys. You know Nina Little Time. More time to mature at this age If he can be one of those guys to turn the corner and mature and they feel solid about him he could be that guy that that goes from late round pick to emerge into a really productive. Nfl Starter all right Matt. Thank you very very much. For for all of that information lots of players to consider at At all of those positions will be interested to find out what the giants do here in a couple of weeks met before I let you go and before we close up shop wanted to tell folks where they can find you on twitter where they can follow your work. What you got coming up all that good stuff. Sure you know you can follow me at Mount Waldman. Rsvp DOT COM. That's my sight. You also can follow my Youtube Channel Matt Waldman's as P film room for anywhere between you know five minute long videos on player prospects to our long videos Twitter my handle is Matt. Waldman WWL D. A. N. And of course there's the Matt Waldman Czars P cast with you know we share mark. Scofield you know and Mark Mark. Certainly he comes on every other week. I do a scout A scout talk podcast with Russ Landi. Who is a former? Nfl SCOUT WITH A couple of different teams and working with the You know working in Calgary in Calgary with the stampede irs as a scout right now in the CFL and we talk about scouting matters You know go in depth on that and you. Can you know if you're interested in the rookie prospects at the skill positions? You know I offer what is arguably the most in-depth comprehensive guide that came out on April first on the rookie scouting portfolio publication. You can download it You can find the information and I'm videos that give you Tours of rookie scouting portfolio at Mount Waldman ours P dot com and that comes with a pre draft addition post draft edition after the draft. A week after that and then Then I a newsletter from June through December once a month that keeps you updated about those players as well as the past. Three classes of rookies And The upcoming class for twenty twenty one so You know it's well worth it's it's well worth the bang for the buck in terms of people You know the people who've gotten it. That's what their Their thoughts have been for the past fifteen years now. So it's what I do. Full time and You know hopefully give it a look all. It's all definitely great. Information definitely worth the time and the money Matt. Thank you very very much. Maybe After the draft will will get back together. We'll talk about the players that the giants did draft sounds great. Ed All right Matt. Thank you giants fans as always. Thank you for listening. Stay safe out there and we'll talk to you soon. Bye Bye hi. I'm Brian and I'm one of the hosts of the Amazing Avenue Network of podcasts. Each weekday we bring you a different podcast. The covers the New York mets from a different perspective every Monday. You Hear Me Steve. Along with Kenan Lucas on from complex SOCLEAN's will discuss the mets minor league system. Every Tuesday an unforgettable. Join me rebel. They look back on the career of a less. Heralded Mick Hi. I'm Alison and with Maggie and Linda. I host a pot of their own each week. We look at all things. Mets and social justice issues in baseball. I'm Chris and you can catch Brian me chatting about the current state of the mets on Amazing Avenue audio the show every Thursday and then. Friday's we have Amazing Avenue in conversation where I talked with interesting people about the New York mets. So check out the amazing avenue. Family of PODCASTS. You can get us on apple podcasts. Spotify stitcher or your pod catcher of choice and as always. Let's go mets.

giants NFL Matt Justin Jefferson League Denzel mims lsu South Carolina Saquon Barkley golden tate Guy Like Levine Daniel Jones Mount Waldman Isaiah Simmons mets Jacksonville Evan Ingram Ucla Darius Slayton
Mark Cuban Wants to Save Capitalism from Itself

The New Yorker Radio Hour

29:00 min | 1 year ago

Mark Cuban Wants to Save Capitalism from Itself

"This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. CO-PRODUCTION WNYC studios and Yorker. welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour I'm David Ramnik mark. Cuban's life story is like a capitalist fairy tale. A working class kid from Pittsburgh gets into technology early, and he becomes a prolific investor, a billionaire, the owner of the Dallas Mavericks, and then one of the hosts of ABC Shark Tank. When I was starting audio was turned into the Stream and industry basically I had people coming to me throwing money at me? We had zero in sales nothing not one person understood what we were doing. They just do based off. But Mark Cuban's politics have been veering in an unusual direction for billionaire. He recently tweeted that the government should higher millions of unemployed people to assist with covert recovery and he also tweeted. This now is the time to train or pay stay at home, parents and caregivers as well. Ideas that might have come from Bernie. Sanders were Alexandria. Cossio Cortez. Our business correspondent Sheila Kaul. Had car talk to mark Cuban earlier this month. You've been advocating recently for things like a much higher federal minimum, wage and payments to individual workers from the government. Putting health of workers head of prophets, which is a somewhat radical notion in some circles. You know the number one thing that I've been trying to push is a transitional federal jobs program. In order for the the economy to come back in an order for for people to feel more confident about their lives they have to. They're going to have to be more jobs. I mean we've lost thirty plus million jobs. We have another twenty million people who are underemployed, so there's fifty million people who are on precarious work positions. What I proposed is that we look at the things that we need as a society and as an economy and start hiring people for those jobs. Jobs and are giving the examples we need tracking and tracing that that's a given and testing. Why not hire two three four million people? Whatever the number is, train them you know within all the hip regulations of privacy requirements to be healthcare workers that can implement tracking tracing also testing for that matter. Pay Them you know at least thirty thousand dollars a year plus benefits now you have that number of people who are confident that they have jobs and are willing to become sumers. Would you have ever thought that you'd be advocating for a big expansion of the federal government prior to this pandemic? That was the very quick answer. Hell No, no, absolutely not, but these are unique circumstances. Unfortunately, so what happened? When did you start to realize? This was different from other kinds of economic crises. Yeah. I mean because it happened so quickly still compressed. We've never had a scenario where businesses just shut down. You know across the country for the most part. So when you get this compression, you can't go back to the old dog matic ways and say this is the way it worked before because there was no before that's Azkaban, and so there is not a Republican way. Trickle down doesn't work and even a democratic way of just random spending, and just you know find ways to spend money injected into the economy. Economy that won't work either. You need to create in my mind a scenario where you create jobs that people have confidence, they'll be able to retain all those companies who are able to borrow money whether big or small. There's nobody buying their products or services. They won't survive, so this has to be a bottom-up solution, not a top down or trickle down solution. Some of these ideas just sound almost progressive to be Has That's something you've struggled with it all I? Mean you know look I'm and I could care less about how it's categorized label. They don't care at all we literally are. Are you know in my opinion going from America? One point zero to try to figure out what America two point zero is going to look like progressive. Dog, Matic perspectives are out the window. Conservative dogmatic perspectives are out the window. There are no rules at work. We have to solve a problem. People's lives on the line. I'm curious to know. How would you rate the trump administration's response so far in terms of their economic policy actions. Has, the cares act done what it was supposed to do. No, but it wasn't because of the plan. It was because of the execution, and so the plan itself was great PPP. Program effectively was to try to get money into businesses hands so that they can retain their employees immediately. The word immediately means everything. The fact that it took so long to get money into companies, hands and by proxy into employees, hands. That's created a different set of challenges and that's been the problem. It does seem to me that the you know the federal money that was earmarked for these different sort of bailout programs. You had the P. P P program the loans that turned into grants. Than you had the different piles of money going to the Federal Reserve to go to larger. What do you make of the fact that the restrictions on those different piles of money seemed to be so different. I mean it does seem to be that the smaller you are. There are a lot of restrictions a lot of hoops to jump through. The largest companies have the fewest restrictions. There is nothing to prevent them from using money. They get through the Fed buying their debt to do stock buybacks, even as they're laying people off What do you make of that? It's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. Any money that goes to a big public company. There should be a reward for taxpayers for loaning to them. If we had given twenty five billion dollars to Boeing, taxpayer should've gotten warrants. They should've gotten options. They should've gotten preferred distributions that has to take place with any money's going to bigger companies period end of story. On top of that if there's anything that's given to executives and that company UNA Perry pursue basis, it should be given to employees so just to pick numbers out there at the CEO makes a million dollars a year, and has given a million dollars and warrants, options or stock repricing. Then there's the same amount of grant. Opportunities should be given to the the lowest end worker for one hundred percent of their earnings. This truly should be capitalism at its best coming up with solutions to very severe problems with the reward, not necessarily going into an individual's pocket, but going into the taxpayer's pocket. I mean. These are very appealing ideas, and and they make a lot of sense, but again it's it's. It's a very heavy involvement of the government, and where you're almost suggesting a situation where the government is telling companies who gets paid what? And I could imagine that the corporate world being very resistant to being told how much they can pay. They WANNA. Pay CEO's whatever they want and they WANNA pay workers. As little. He wants right when businesses good all CEO's or capitalist when business is bad, all CEO's are socialists, right? They want as much as they can get for as little as possible But you know somebody's gotta put populist hat on and negotiate for the tax payers. Company and that's all I'm talking about. It's a form of capitalism, but it's it's different from the traditional understanding of capitalism is sort of a new idea of capitalism that you're thinking. If you look at it that way at all I'm just we have to have good representation of workers, and the economy is whole by true capitalist, and maybe that turns people off or rubs people the wrong way, but just not doing what's right and to me that's that's capitalism at its best, maybe with a little added dose of compassion, which I think particularly right now is needed, but is also a business I mean if you look at millennials and generation Z.. They only want to buy from people who. whose ideals they match up with, and those types of points of compassion are good business, and now we just have to apply those same concepts to what we do as a country. You know the game has changed. You know we're in a world now. Where if the people that we live next to the people that we pass in the streets, the people in our communities aren't doing well. Then all business fails. If people can't afford to buy anything, but the basics may not even the basics. All businesses of all sizes fail and I think people are starting to recognize now that if we don't lift up from the bottom, there won't be consumer demand because this all happened so quickly. Investor in Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban. He spoke with our business correspondent Sheila had car. Shield up Mark Cuban said to you that Progressive Orthodoxy and Conservative Orthodoxy are now out the window because of the pandemic, but as anything. He just told us not in fact, progressive orthodoxy. I. Think if you were to put the question to him. He would say well. My ideas are very focused on job, preservation and job creation. traditional sort of democratic socialist. Politician might be more focused on giving money to people giving social services, social supports and programs to people rather than focusing on the job element, but I thought it was interesting that a lot of the things that Mark Cuban says that he's four right now in terms of addressing. The problem and giving people more. Money to get through this are not happening because the Republicans in Congress. Don't want them to happen. And in many cases, the Republicans are actively blocking these things from happening the idea of extending unemployment benefits, considering sending more cash aid to families. There definitely opposed to that idea. They think it will create a disincentive. To working which is their longstanding argument? Sheila is Mark Cuban alone on this hill. Are there other business leaders saying similar things? There are. You've even seen the CEO of J. P. Morgan Chase, CEO, recently. You know we need to take this as an opportunity to rethink capitalism. Look I've personally spoken to Wall Street. Executives I think a lot of people even conservative wall. Street executives recognize the uniqueness of this situation and a number of people have expressed to me privately. Listen. You've got to give people money to get through this or there's going to be an uprising. There's going to be tumult in the government has to help people through that or you're going to have a real problem. You can find Sheila Kaul. Had Cars Work at New Yorker? Dot Com. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around! This is the New Yorker Radio. Hour I'm David Redneck. Katie Waldman is one of the most voracious readers I know, which is good because that's her job. She writes the page Turner Column. For The New Yorker and she's always got a pile of the most interesting and on point books of the moment around. And while some people are talking about the big serious books, they're finally going to tackle. Katie Waldman recently wrote a piece about something quite different. We're here to talk about comic novels and not is definitely been wonderful and actually kind of a change of speed for me, because I'm more of a waller by nature than an escapist, so I was doing a lot of kind of grim reading. I was working on a piece of diaries, and I was reading civil war diaries Anne Frank's diaries, and it was all about enclosure and loneliness, and suddenly I thought you know I actually don't need an even worse reflection of the way that I'm feeling I would like to feel something completely different. So. I started reading comic novels, and so the first novel the I want to recommend is not going surprise anyone, but it's. Right Ho Jeeves by PG woodhouse. He is wonderful. He is written twenty three of these Birdie and jeeves stories and right Ho Jeeves is widely regarded I. think as the Crown Jewel. Jeeves is the Butler. He's STOIC. He's brilliant. He's impeccable and then Birdie is the colorful well-to-do fashionable young master. WHO's really friendly and loyal and wants to help those close to him. Get Out of scrapes, but he is unfortunately a bit of a Dodo. Glorious lack of self awareness. Getty. Did you want to read a passage from this novel sure? Well, I should introduce this by saying that right Ho Jeeves is in what is known as the rebellious period of the Brady and jeeves relationship so Birdie is quite a funded that his friends are leapfrogging over him to consult Jeeves so he is quite insulted and he tries to take a soothing bath to take mind off of the indignity. When one has taken the trouble to whack out a highly juicy scheme to benefit, and in the suit friend in his hour of Travail, it's pretty foul to find him giving the credit to one's personal attendant, particularly, if that personal attendant is a man who goes about the place, not packing mess jackets. The discovery of toy duck in the soapdish. Presumably, the property of some former juvenile visitor contributed not a little to this new and happier frame of mind. What with one thing and another, I hadn't played with Toy Dachshund, my for years and I found the novel experience. Most invigorating for the benefit of those interested I may mention that if you shove the thing under the surface with a sponge, and then let it go. It shoots out of the water in a manner calculated to divert the most care warn. Ten minutes of this and I was enabled to return to the bedchamber much more the Mary Old Bertram. The thing that people comment on all the time, and you can't help but love in. Would houses just the sentences that the language the sound of it? The kind of jokes that seem. inimitable, where does where does that come from I mean it's a great question. Because I think he creates these very ornate cataracts of nonsense. Like. This person doesn't necessarily know where his sentence is going to end, and neither do you, but you're in it together. Presuming that you're not just plowing your way through a stack of woodhouse day after day. What else is on your? Hit parade well I wanted to bring up Richard Russo's novels straight man in part, because it heartaches in a long and glorious tradition of grumpy professor novels. Straight man is about an English professor named Hank, who is kind of wisecracking and anarchic, and he has all these problems in his department. First of all, there's no money, so he has no budget. Second of all his colleagues are back. Biting and rude and one is physically violent. Third he is estranged from his wife. His children are kind of feeling to launch Sui as all these somewhat ivory tower problems, and the climax of these various simmering pots is he ransoms a goose from the university duck pond and declares that he will kill it and less. Someone gives him a budget with which he can get things done in the English department and it just gets crazier from there. Sounds Great. Have you ever thought of Richard? Rousseau is really funny. Writer but somebody WHO's. It's an interesting point because I think he. When I I found it I was in middle school and I thought it was the most charming book I ever read. Now you know rereading it. It's not entirely lighthearted. The stakes are somewhat high. The emotions are real and often painful, and you kind of see that he's made a conscious decision to laugh instead of cry, and that's his way of claiming agency. There's a real understanding their the comedy sort of glows the brightest when it is sat in tragic frame. What's next on your reading list? So this one is called lightning rods, and it's by Helen dewitt. Have you heard about this book or Heaven? She is a wonderful author. You may have read the last Samurai, which was praise to the heavens, but this is slightly smaller and a little bit weirder work. It's an office sex comedy, and and the idea is that There's a lot of ambient sexual tension in the American workplace, and so this one guy has the idea to deploy temp workers that provide anonymous sex to people in a corporation and company gone. So that they don't sexually harass the actual female employees bizarre sounding novel. Yeah, well one thing that's kind of funny about it is. You haven't seen better. Call Saul. Have you sort of breaking bad spin off I have okay, so this is a very the main character is very saul like he's kind of hapless on one, and but also this kind of silver, tawny opportunist at flexible morals who? We actually start to think in his rhythms, because dewitt inhabits his thoughts, and that itself is somewhat audacious and funny. You keep hearing about readers who say okay now. That I've got this, you know. Thanks to this terrible thing. This opportunity that I'm finally going to read and then fill in the blank. Do you have anything like that on your list? I should finish moby Dick Right. Yes. Yes, you always come up short with Moby, Dick. You know I actually really love it. It's very Allah Ping I just. I. Don't have that drive to finish it because I like having it there as something that I can always always make a little bit of progress on well. Here's to good reading. Thank you so much, Katie thank you. Katie Waldman has more recommendations for comic novels, and you can read her on books new and old at new. Yorker DOT COM. Now if you're thinking that while you're spending so much time at home, this might be the chance to master that craft. That's always eluded you. We've got a little cautionary tale. A few years ago, The New Yorker Susan Orlean attended Origami USA a gathering of the hard core of Origami guests. Here Susan. I've always loved reading about and writing about people who are inordinately passionate about something, which is kind of a nicer way of saying people who are obsessed. Of course I. Love Origami People. That I went to the convention to see one origami person in particular, a Caltech train physicists name Robert Lang. Robert had been doing cutting edge, research and lasers, but then at the peak of his career in physics, he gave it up to become professional origami artist. Every Origami Fan at the convention wanted to be in a class with Robert. He's the Davinci of Origami maybe his. The OBI Wan Kanobi of Origami many's the secretariat of Origami. He was teaching session on a model of his call the Taiwan goldfish. It's open, seven hundred and sixteen in the WHO've of Robert Lang. This is Robert Lay be presenting his Taiwan goldfish. Thank you Robert. You're welcome. Are we ready to go? Okay I told the folks here. We're using ten inch. Foil backed paper. American foil flew over years. Robert has folded flat sheets of paper into an unimaginable array of things including rhinoceros. Kuku clocks UNICORNS. Nearly every kind of beatle known to mankind, and in one of his most famous demonstrations, the head of Drew Carey. There was a plot line where drew Carey took up on me, and they said well. We want them to fold a big origami model himself. So would you fold? A Life Drew Carey which I did but they rewrote that script. So, it never made it to air. Sort of too bad. Now I am the lowest level of. Artist fact I really shouldn't even dignify myself by calling myself an artist. I I like folding paper. Normally. I would not be the target audience for Roberts Class. So. Let's get started and we're GONNA. Start with the color up. And folded paper in half from edge to edge. This was step by step instruction on how to fold Roberts Taiwan goldfish. It's this really beautiful creature with a hinged mouth. Long elegant tail, and all the proper goldfish fins trailing off in a kind of poetic way. and. It's really hard. So hand. Don't go so fast. So I cheated. I was sitting next to a friend of Roberts another professional origami artists. And he kept leaning over in helping me. Fix My mistakes. Here's where we were. Going to bring this raw edge. Lineup with a diagonal existing crease as I do that. I'll have to make a squash fold of the layers in between squash that and flatten. There's a low close up. The crease folded over. And I squash fold a little hood. And then pressed flat. There is a problem and we're ready for our next step. Origami is an ancient art form that nobody would ever describe as a growth industry, but we're also now recognizing that it has enormous technological potential. In fact in two thousand twelve, the National Science Foundation awarded millions of dollars for research into the scientific applications of folding, and this this gave a huge jump start to the field. There have been all of all of these applications that people have demonstrated. Demonstrated using origami and solar rays and airbags and telescopes and things like this, and this is something. The really cool ways Origami is being used now is as a foldable Kevlar bulletproof barrier for police teams, so it's twelve layers of Kevlar and you grab it, and it unfolds and creates this sort of arc shaped barrier, because it's folded from one sheet with no scenes, there are no weak places. The next step is going to be a CRIMP. Shrimp is to foul. Valley Goldfish Mountain exists. The mountain folds. Is this verdict goal crease that we made early on. The valley folds going to run out in this. Is there something innate that would make someone good at Origami as opposed to just being studious? It's hard to put a finger on precisely what is? To be really good Origami. You need to be able to visualize what the papers doing and visualize. kind of what's what's going on inside a stack of layers. You know I just thought. This might be ridiculous, but. I wonder if people who are good at our Gami would also be good at cutting hair. because its three dimensional. And it's lots of layers. And have to research that, but it's just. I don't know any haircutters who come to the convention I'm drawing this connection. 'cause I'm really bad at cutting hair much as I always love to cut like my boyfriend's hair. And also quite bad at Origami, and so I think I think there is a connection known origami. If we mess up, we throw it away. Grab a new sheet of paper. You have to have a little more care and precision when you're reading. Someone say new boyfriend. Just. Get a new person. Can See this. This side is half of a reversible GONNA. Do the same thing on the other side. I should have had more coffee. I remember when we first met. You said something to me. That I've never forgotten that that paper has a memory that once you fold it. You can never entirely. Remove the fold my remembering this right. Yeah, one once you, may you fold it at the paper has a memory because the the the fibers and the bonds between the fibers or permanently changed, and so it'll, it'll always know that full. It's funny because it's something I think about often because there's something kind of profound about it, if feels. Seems like it's kind of about life to. The engineers have a way of you know reducing a profound concept to a technical term. It undergoes plastic deformation just means A. Change and lots of materials do that as well. If you take a sheet of metal, and you hold it, and then you try to unfold it. You'll be left with a little bit you that you can't really get rid of but paper Yes. It remembers that fold, but then it's also happy to fold the other direction. And Dad is unusual. Key Kid. And the very last regular full. I'm going to. Open it out. And reversible at forward. So that. We go. You get a mouth. That is the mouth. Is. And once you have the mouth then. You can put your fingers inside round the body. And bring the Finns out. That's our finished goldfish. And our visitor was successful. Well. Let's. Susan Orlean with the Origami Legend. Robert Lang Susan's most recent book of nonfiction is called. The library book. I'm David Remnant and that's our show for today. Thanks for joining US I hope you'll join us next time for the New Yorker Radio Hour. The new. Yorker Radio Hour is a CO production of WNYC studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by merrill garbage of tune yards with additional music by Alexis quadruple. This episode was produced by Baron Emily Boutin Ave Correo ran in corby Cala David. Krosno Caroline Lester. Go Fan and put. Louis Mitchell Michelle, Moses, and Steven Valentino with help from Alison Macadam, Morgan Flannery Monkey Chen and emily man. The New Yorker Radio. Hour supported in part by the Tarinah and domino.

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A Low-Turnout Election is Solvable (Even During COVID-19)

Solvable

23:16 min | 10 months ago

A Low-Turnout Election is Solvable (Even During COVID-19)

"Pushkin. Welcome to solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. Think now about the scenes from the Michigan State. Militia members carrying a fifteen's. It's it's the most shocking thing you can imagine. It's shocking and we're going to have a risk of seeing too much of that type of thing. The stakes are extremely high for this year's election. Experts had anticipated the largest turn out in a century, states were registering voters and preparing their precincts, and then covid nineteen head. Priority suddenly shifted. You don't want governor being able to say Oh. I'M GONNA postpone an election. I mean we've had elections in this country under all kinds of dire circumstances, wars in fact, pandemics in the past having the paper ballot having that backup so that you can do an audit so that you can see if there was fraud so that you can do a recount that turns out to be the best system of all turn. Is there an argument other than the purely partisan one? That more voting may advantage one versus the other you more likely to be struck by lightning. Than commit in person voter impersonation in the United States. But. There are other real hurdles to this year's election. With millions of Americans vulnerable to a deadly pandemic. Social distancing measure is now a familiar part of life and the country facing what is perhaps the largest economic crisis in its history, the challenge of securing safe election with high rates of participation is huge. We can have an election that is participatory. With robust turn out in twenty twenty. This is a solvable problem. Michael Waldman is the author of the book the fight to vote. He's the president of the Brennan. Center, for Justice at Nyu. It's non-partisan law and Policy Institute that focuses on improving systems of democracy. Waldman's an expert in the practicalities of the democratic process. He's identified some straightforward solutions to this year's election challenges. My solvable is having an election. That is safe and secure and fully participatory in the middle of the coronavirus pandemic and might. We can't really predict what it's going to be like in November. What are the main things we as a country and as states need to do? You're right that we don't know what it's going to be like in November. The line is we need to? Upgrade how we run elections in the United States for twenty twenty, so that people have the option voting by mail so that there are safe in person options and ample early voting, so that people can register to vote safely and so that we count the ballots in a careful way recognizing that everything's changed. Vote by mail seems like a pretty simple and obvious solution. I mean I understand their legal obstacles in some states in their funding obstacles, but in your ideal world. Wouldn't we just send a prepaid? To everybody WHO's registered and encourage them to vote that way? We'll a lot of states already run their elections by vote by mail, Western states especially like a California and Oregon and Washington. And Colorado and Utah. That's pretty much how people vote right now it will be. Impossible to imagine the whole country. Moving to vote by mail in November. What we can do in the meantime is make it so that people are notified of their a opportunity to get a ballot and they don't need an excuse. They don't need a doctor's note, and we have every reason to think that most people right now will WanNa vote that way yeah I mean. You wrote a whole book about the history of voting and the expansion of voting rights in this. This country, the thing I don't understand about it. Older people who tend to be more conservative tend to vote with Republicans are the most in need of remote voting options and the most in jeopardy from having to go out to vote in person yet it seems to be conservatives who were fighting the vote by mail. Thing so, can you explain that to me well? You know there's lots of things. When it comes to voting. That are controversial with have been partisan fights. If you think about something like the debate over what kind of voter makes sense, that's pretty intense and has been. In the kind of Democrat. Republican left right way. Vote by mail has not been one of the controversial things. The further away you get from. The Fox News set or I guess the White House podium, the left part is in. This is trump. I said out loud. What you really not supposed to say, which is oh, we'll get levels voting there so high. That will never win. And then. After a few days he realized he'd gone off script and what he says. Oh I'm very worried about the specter of voter fraud, but he really made clear. The goal was to restrict. The electorate started drama, but that's my question is. Is it possible that he's wrong? That is in general terms more people. Voting Might Advantage Democrats, but in specific terms a lot of the things Democrats are advocating right now might just advantage Republicans more. Political scientists say that it hasn't affected one party or another event? That vote by mail hasn't benefited one party or another Republican campaigns. Democratic campaigns are organizing voters to vote by mail. It hasn't stopped the Republican. Party of Florida from pouring a lot of energy into organizing people vote by mail. That's what's weird about. This is vote by mail was probably one of the least partisan in least divisive issues in the whole voting area, and that is one one thing that I think is is is pretty hopeful I. Mean you say this? But we saw this play out in a seemingly just crazy in somewhat vicious way in Wisconsin, Where Democratic governor said we're having pandemic. Let's extent leads delay the election briefly. Let's have vote by mail and I. Guess It's a Republican legislature. And Conservative dom dominated state courts force the election to happen, and there were these scenes of you know people feeling very imperilled, going to vote in masks, and so on I mean what what happened there. People were so. Angry. About their right to vote, being taken away or about their health, being put at risk that they voted in greater numbers than anybody expected. One thing that happened is people in the state it. Wisconsin is one of those states. Elects Their State Supreme Court? As much of the country does. The more progressive candidate won that race in a blowout in a way that nobody expected and people being angry about what was happening with. The voting seemed to be one of the reasons. Why the Thrill really interesting point Michael I mean there there is part of an American history. Your. Acquires meaning in proportion to the effort by people to deny you the right to vote, you know you don't WanNA governor being able to say Oh, I'm gonNA. Postpone an election, I mean we've had elections in this country under times of dire circumstances, wars and in fact pandemic. Very tough circumstances. And, we've always done it. We had an election in eighteen sixty four during the civil war. Lincoln felt it was extraordinarily important to keep going and have the election, and it was actually the case that has victory speech was about why. The significance of not letting the rebellion stop our elections. We had an election in one thousand, nine hundred eighteen turn out dropped. and they had allowed the same issues now and people wearing masks about in the middle of the Spanish flu in one, thousand, nine, hundred, forty two. When millions of people were caught up in World War Two, we ran elections. We've always had. The steps taken that had to happen to make. People could vote under the craziest of circumstances. We've never had a president. Basically saying out loud that he sees an opportunity to shrink turnout. Because of the crisis. For political reasons. That has never happened before, and that would be really destructive. If we let that guide what we do as a country, part of a sharing a fair election is making sure that you have technology that works that doesn't enable fraud or just miscount votes is of course. We've dealt with in in several recent elections when we were kids. You know we there was different technology from voting. Some my favorite early memories are going with my parents in Chicago to vote on those giant machines with the curtain and they. They pulled the enormous lever and you know my parents would let me flick the the little metallic levers to choose your candidate, and actually they still have machines when I go to vote New York, but they're little machines and they. They have this optus to scan card, but what's how does technology play into all this? There was there was in. You know a lot of the country's history. A lot of fraud in voting and one of the solutions has been technology and you know the one of my. Earliest powerful memories around. Democracy about things that got me really interested in this whole thing is going with my parents to. Do this very Sacramento thing where you not only could flip the switch, but you got to pull a lever to open the curtain, which with the vote had been cast the machine itself was considered a technological solution back in the late eighteen hundreds. It appears. When you go on election day and stand down at the river. You would see boxes floating on the river. Because the Democrats have gone to the Republican precincts and taking the boxes and throwing them in the river. Through Republicans had gone to the democratic precinct throwing them in the river, so they they had basically technological fix. They said we need new. Voting system new voting machine, and the key specification was it had to be too heavy to pick up and thrown, and for all the problems with those machines they were always too heavy to throw in the river, and it is the case that they were often prone to error or miscounted. The Best Way To have votes counted is with paper ballot. And counted by these machines, but having the paper ballot having that backup so that you can do an audit so that you can see if there was fraud so that you can do a recount that turns out to be the best system of all, and we've evolved toward that even in this pandemic deaths. That's what we've got, so let's talk about the solutions for twenty twenty. You know the the covert election as I'm sure it will go down in the history books. What are the key things that we need to do to make this election work? Most important thing is to have. Everybody, have access to vote by mail, and the polls show that most people now expect to Wanna be able to vote by mail this year. In addition to that, there are a lot of people who want to or need to vote in person. A lot of communities where the male this works so well. So what that means is, you need safe. In person voting especially lots of early voting opportunities. We also need to make sure that these person polling places are are are sanitary for example having a masks and P for poll workers, it means having sanitation and having enough polling sites so open early enough and early voting so that people can spread out there times when they go and and and stand online. If they need to in a way, that's safe. You're saying the poll. Workers won't be able to shut down outs in the usual way. You know a lot of po workers do it for the donuts. Let's. That's not really quite right, but the workers are very. You know a lot of the poll. Workers are very dedicated. They've been doing it for years. They're often senior citizens. But this year we may need to make sure that there are a number of people who can show up safely to run polling places. We have to change also how we register. Voters expand online voter registration, which a lot of states have because you know this year. People aren't going to be getting registered to vote. With people standing in shopping centers with clipboards and we did see voter registration rates of new voters collapse. In March and April of this year. Whatever the results aren't election-night aren't GONNA be the final results because the states that vote by mail, just take longer to count the ballots. States need to change their counting systems so that deadlines we're GONNA shift because it takes longer to count paper ballots and we have to have. A real public education campaign to teach people how they can do it now. It's different from what they're used to. All these things can be done. They've all been done somewhere. That's why it's a solvable. Is a solvable problem. We can have an election that is participatory. We've with robust turn out in twenty twenty, but we've got to act and what helped the states need I mean. There's been discussion of of congressional funding for vote by mail efforts, and for some of these procedures that are needed to make in person voting safer. Do they really need a lot of money? and Are we going to have an issue with supplies? The way we did early in the crisis around P P, P and masks you know, is there enough watermarked paper for all these mail in ballots, the technology around vote by mail. Do we have the supplies and equipment? The main thing they need is money. They need help from the federal government. Only the federal government can spend right now states many of them have balanced budget requirements, and so that's why these stimulus bills in the ability of the federal government to to spend and provide resources is so important. The Brennan Center has calculated that what will need to happen will cost up to four billion dollars in twenty twenty. and Congress. Passed, an appropriation for for the first four hundred million dollars, Congress has to act, and if Congress doesn't act, it is going to be very hard for states. To do what they want to a need to do, time is really really of the essence. There are deadlines their supply chain issues. Election official can't just. Walk into a staples in October and A bunch of scanners to tilted the voting. They have to order them now. And they're really tight deadlines, so one of the terrible things would be if we woke up in a few months and realized that we needed to do this, but that the window to do it had closed. How worried should we be about the post office? The Post Office is going to run out of funding if something isn't done in September and the president again is sort of seems to see the post office as part of this thing. That's going to be able to vote more than he. He wants them to. You know and I was also amazed to to learn reading about this. That mail in ballots don't come postpaid. That is you need a stamp and. Your children are a little older than mine. But you know people who are voting for the first time, or all often not familiar with the technology of male and stamps things you need to have to mail letters. Yeah! I mean the post office is running out of money. We think it's important that postage prepaid. Also, a lot of people were kind of nervous about sticking about in the mailbox. You know is going to really go where I wanted to go so a lot of places that do vote by mail. People get the ballots at home, but they can drop them off at their convenience in secure and guarded box. You know at a government office and that is actually a lot of people vote. It's really voted home rather than vote by mail alone by how we know whether we've solved this problem. One measure will simply be whether people feel safe and secure, and that they've been able to vote in their votes have been counted, you know. Should we be judging it by turnout? This big oscillation turn out in American elections. Is there a turnout level that will say to us? We've succeeded in twenty twenty. In two thousand fourteen, we had the lowest voter turnout in seventy two years. For mid term. That's how you do. The comparison that that was like a real sign of a withdrawal of public trust of disaffection, but in two thousand eighteen. We had the highest voter turnout in a century. People were reacting to trump. People were voting supporting trump. They certainly kindled in their activism and a real surge in youth, voting, and other things to repudiate and and protests trump. So this was gonna be. We were preparing for the highest turnout record high turnout in twenty twenty. If there's a collapse in turn out, that is not going to be because people just don't care whether trump gets reelected will also know if people are having to stand in line in very unsafe situations. You know, this election is already so much, distrust and so much anger and so much misinformation. We can't allow anything to happen. That's going to just make people distrusted even more. Think now about the scenes from the Michigan State House. Militia members carrying air fifteen's have invaded the State House and actually stopped the state legislature from doing its work. If. It's the most shocking thing you can imagine. It's shocking and we're going to have a risk of seeing too much of that kind of thing, if people don't trust how the elections are being run, and if they unfold in chaos in November, I'm very worried about this kind of thing Mike to wrap up I. wanted to ask you a little bit about what listeners can do and in particular, if you're really concerned about the safety and security of the election in twenty twenty, should you be focusing your efforts locally nationally? First of all speak out, let your members of Congress know that they should put aside the partisanship and support the resources. For States to be able to do this and let people in state capitals, no the same thing. This year, too. There's individual steps that people can take. Find out and make sure you are registered. Most states have the ability to do that. A. Through a website online. You WanNa. Make sure that you're not purged from the voter rolls or that something hasn't happened so that. It's all going to be very different now and you WanNa. Make sure you're registered. find out what the deadlines are forgetting. An absentee ballot or or a mail ballot if that's what you WANNA do. It's not gonNA. Just show up most of the time in in your mailbox and you fill it out. You got to ask for it. We can help our parents do that if they need the technological help, but we all have a big responsibility. Yeah, is there a legitimate other side to this issue? I mean when I hear you. Talking to stuff seem so obvious we should make it possible for people to vote which make it easier for people to vote should should be saved for people to vote. More people should vote. Is there an argument other than the purely partisan one that more voting may advantage one party versus the other against the kinds of things. The Brennan Center advocates in terms of expanding voting rights. You know. The notion that everybody who's eligible should be able to vote is in many ways at the heart of our civic religion. It's it's it's core patriotic, widely shared view. You hear arguments. That voting is a privilege, not a right, but the right to vote is actually in the constitution mentioned five times. In the in the amendments, it's something we all really believe in as Americans. You also hear. People say that they're worried about election, integrity and voter fraud, and it's really important that we have. Elections that a reliable and that we have election integrity, and that means among other things focusing on the real threats. Such as cyber security, and we, we know that Russia in two thousand sixteen tried to get into the election systems in all fifty states and this time there's every reason to worry that Russia or other countries or other malevolent actors will be doing the same thing a so it's not that there aren't risks of misconduct and fraud. It is not the case that millions of illegal voters are magically and mysteriously voting. And, when you look at all the research voter fraud is vanishingly rare. You're more likely to be struck by lightning. Than commit em-, person voter impersonation in the United States that worry is is addressable and is overwhelmed by the need to make sure that everybody who's eligible to vote can vote. To me, that's the only legitimate way to run an election. Mike it's great to see you. The zoom and I want to thank you for joining us on solvable. Thank you. That was Michael Waldman President of Brennan Center for Justice. Remember to check out. Our show notes for links to the suggestions. Our guests make for ways that you can get involved. Next week we'll continue our election series with a conversation with Kristin Clark. President and Executive Director of the National Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights under law. She believes that the problem of voter suppression is solvable. Please join us. Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by Camille. Baptista senior producer. Jocelyn Frank Catherine Gerardo with our managing producer and our executive producer is meal about. Special thanks to Heather Fain Eric Sandler. Carly Glory and Could Dj holiday I'm Jacob Weisberg.

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What We Can Learn From Microscopic Life In Antarctica

Short Wave

12:39 min | Last month

What We Can Learn From Microscopic Life In Antarctica

"You're listening to shortwave from npr. Hey everybody matty here today. We've got something fun for you from another. Npr podcast ted radio hour. It's from a recent show exploring far off worlds in this excerpt. They take us on a journey to antarctica. The coldest place on earth who mnuchin summer rhody talks to wildlife filmmaker. Reo waldman about her search for microscopic life. There it's a glimpse into what it takes to do science in extreme environments and the weird and wonderful life that thrives there featuring one of my favorite critters of all time the tar degrade. If you haven't heard of these tough little maas piglets before you are in for a treat all right. That's coming up next today on the show. We are venturing through the looking glass extending our perception and exploring strange new worlds including here on earth. So when you land on packed snow runway in mcmurdo You don't see anything it's just note so there's no trees no bush's there's no grass. There's none of that. Most people think of antarctica is really desolate area covered with over a mile of ice in many locations. It's the coldest continent it's also extremely dry. It's a polar desert. But the thing that i feel like a lot of people don't know about antarctica is that it's really brimming with life and a lot of different locations. It's just that most of it is invisible to us. You would need to have a microscope in order to see them. This is ariel waldman. She's a wildlife filmmaker at the microbial scale. And i'm an adviser to nasa and i'm also in antarctic explorer aerial. I became interested in ant arctic microbes. Back in two thousand thirteen. She was working with nasa and she met astrobiologists who study and articles extreme conditions and the life forms. That actually thrived there. I had learned that a lot of biologists goto antarctica but they very rarely ever take any photos or videos of the creatures that they studied there. And so i kind of saw an opportunity to really help both scientists and help people around the world actually get to see all this amazing stuff so that realization. That is what inspired you to basically become the first filmmaker to document these hidden ecosystems. But how did you go from that inspiration to making it happen. Couldn't could not have been easy going to antarctica just required a lot of preparation. I prepared for months and this was after. It took me five years of applying to go to aunt hartika and working towards becoming a wildlife filmmaker at the microbial scale. And so i was self taught microscopy and then i ended up joining the san francisco microscopically society which i am now the president of super geeky so you become an expert microscopy disc my saying that right yes exactly and and so do you remember like you remember what it was like when you first got to put a sample under the microscope in antarctica and peer into this tiny alien world for the first time just about fainted the very first sample. I got to look at Was from divers. Who had gone under the cis. And i had an idea of like a few as the different critters that i was going to see but when the first sample under the microscope i saw these beautiful diet homs which are micro algae with glass shells which are just beautiful. Their geometric gems of the sea of different areas of water around the earth. But i found diatoms had triangular shapes and they just looked like they had been manufactured by humans. There so gorgeous. And i i. It's hard to put it into words. Just how excited i was. Okay so talk us through it like. What was the plan for you and your trustee microscopes so the plan in antarctica was to take microscopes around to different locations and really be able to find life that was under the ice so i was looking for a life underneath the sea ice i was looking for life embedded inside glacier ice life that was near frozen lakes and i go around and i would take samples from different locations and some of the areas where i sampled that were more hardcore to get to. I would join up with another team. And and one of those hardcore places was beneath the ice like into the water. Absolutely right absolutely freezing water. I believe the water is negative to celsius so because it saltwater it can go a little bit beyond the normal freezing point of water and they're divers in an kartika that regularly go down Under nine feet thick of cis and explore the ocean down there. It's really amazing. I was watching these divers going like. Why would anyone want to do that. Is freezing called like there's nothing that can be that worth it but thankfully there's this this metal tube that Mcmurdo station put into the ice. And you can crawl down to and at the bottom of this to your embedded between the sea ice and the sea floor. So you're kind of floating So to speak with windows where you're able to see all of the life on the floor and you can hear all of these amazing weddell seals which sound like synthesizers all around you. It's it's really magical and it really changed my perspective on why anyone would ever want to be a diver in antarctica. So i could help direct divers to take collections from the ceiling and from the sea floor and then i would take the samples back to the main laboratory at mcmurdo station in filter them and look at them under the microscope. As freshly as. I could so that i could see them interacting in the way that they would interact in their home environment. So so tell us about the microbes that you found and the footage that you took them. We're actually gonna look at them and describe some of them here and the first one is a turt- agreed area. What is tar grade. So atari grade is also known as a water bear or sometimes even a moss piglet and they are tiny microscopic animals. They are actually animals. They have eight legs. They're incredibly cute. They look like little. Gummy bears with claus. I always like to say they've got two little ice. Spots tar grade means slow walker so They are not the quickest microbes that you'll see under the microscope but they're just a famous for being hard core for being able to survive extreme cold or extreme dryness radiation and lots of other things. So that looks like to me okay. Yes a gummy bear. You say gummy bear. I think it also looks like manatee with offense. See through and microscopic and. It's just kind of moving around with. Its little arms. What is it doing. Yes the little claws on hargraves grades are really good at going through moss. Most common environment that you'll find these grades in is moss and those claws allow them to be really nimble but when you put one on a glass slide. It has trouble. It's kind of like an ice skating rink for it. So what you're seeing is a tardy grade which is able to navigate through maas fairly easily but once it tries walking over the glass it slips and slides and has trouble getting traction. Wow so much going on for the little tardy grade okay. So let's take a look at the next one. I'm just going to describe it. It's kind of oblong translucent. With what looks like these little green. I dunno beach balls kind of moving around inside of it. Oh in it's it's moving a bit. It's got a little shimmy. What is happening here area. Who is this. Yeah so this is a silly it. it's a type of protest and protest. They're not animals plants and they're not fun guy. They are their own thing. You saw just here go poop out like a little piece of stuff from its stomach and this is what i love about silly. They're called silly. It's because they have silly On their outside which just means little fringy bits that are like little hairs That they use to get around and feel for food and other things like that. But the thing i love about it says that you can see their entire digestive system pretty much. It's just a circle of digestion looking. You know earlier in the show we spoke to emily. Leveque she's an astronomer and it strikes me that you both have been transported into places that it's kinda hard to believe. They exist without seeing them. You may not believe them. Is that what happened to you with this project. I feel like i feel you know. It's the same as the telescope. It really shows you another world. But i think microscopes even more so because this is the world that you already live in so instead of showing you this far away distant planet and imagining what that is like you already know what earth is like. It's just that you don't know that you're walking by entire zoos of tiny animals every day tar degrades while they're famous for surviving these extreme environments they live in moss everywhere across the planet so every single sidewalk crack that you walk by that has a little piece of moss embedded inside it. There's most likely a lot harder grades in there. And this is what i love about. Microscopes is really it gives you much more insight into your experiences a human on earth which is pretty amazing planet when you study space and so has that outlook and this experience changed you in some way. And we're where you're headed for me. My own journey and microscopes. I think is is really growing. I'm wanting to do more field. Microscopy in different locations so whether it be going into prairies or rainforests of madagascar. It's very clear that being able to go into the field and look at the microscopic critters that are around and and being able to showcase that to the world is something that's really useful because there's just so much that we enjoy from bbc documentaries of wildlife and we should have that same experience for the microscopic world around us and and that's really where i'm hoping to take everything that's ariel waldman filmmaker at the microbial scale. You can see all her microbes at life under the ice dot org and you can watch her talk at ted dot com special. Thanks to our friends. At ted radio. Hour shortwave is made by thomas lou. Rebecca ramirez brit hanson. Emily russia ridi. Veit lay giselle grayson and me at isa five or back tomorrow. With more shortwave. The daily science podcast from npr on npr's pop culture. Happy hour podcast. We talk about tv movies and more like the new marvel disney plus series falcon and the winter soldier and a definitive ranking of the best. Muppets all of that. And around twenty minutes every weekday. Listen now to the pop culture. Happy hour podcast from npr.

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