19 Episode results for "Wake Forest University"

Moths Flee or Face Bats Depending on Toxicity

60-Second Science

02:46 min | 11 months ago

Moths Flee or Face Bats Depending on Toxicity

"This is scientific American sixty seconds science. I'm Suzanne barred about twelve thousand species of Tiger Tiger Moth Earth. Some of them swoop and dive out of harm's way when Hungary bat tries to make them a meal but other tiger moth species are more blase I say they just don't bother to flee from Hungary bats and I really just wanted to know why why the difference what factors might be influencing whether a species. She's is more or less likely to perform these. Evasive maneuvers. Wake Forest University behavioral ecologist. Nick Dowdy he says it's a matter of taste i. Some of the malls are delicious but others are toxic and tastes terrible when the airborne predators catch these unappetizing moths. They'll spit them out. Giving bring the insects a new lease on life in a field experiment dowdy and his colleague William Connor filmed health five different species of tiger. Moths responded to bat attacks. Ax and what we found. was that those species which were really toxic so when the bats captured them they almost never ate them. Those species are much more likely likely to be. What we call nonchalance species that do not perform evasive maneuvers very often on the other hand species that were really palatable? We're much more likely to perform those evasive maneuvers. Almost in a sense sort of hedging their bets because if they don't make that escape if they are captured by a bat those species these are more likely to be another factor. Is that evasive maneuvers. have their own set of risks which may be why unpalatable. Moths tend to avoid them for for example diving away from Bats Burns fuel gives the insects less time to seek out mates and could expose them to other perils such as getting stuck in water or there could be predators on the ground like mice and other mammals the study is in the Journal. Frontiers in ecology and evolution. Doughty is now trying to identify The chemical compounds responsible for making some tiger. Moths taste bad wants. Those findings are in chemical analysis of museum. Specimens could help reveal l. how rare endangered or even extinct insects have behaved around predators. Study animal behavior even without a living organism. That's pretty amazing. Other animals with conspicuous warning signals such as garishly coloured poison dart frogs and foul smelling skunks are also tone to be slow. Movers perhaps a few deadly toxic or just plain stink can pay to be lazy. Thanks for listening. For Scientific Scientific Americans sixty second science. I'm Suzanne Bard.

Suzanne Bard Nick Dowdy Hungary Wake Forest University William Connor Doughty l. sixty seconds sixty second
Ep 29  MI in College and University Settings

Talking To Change - A Motivational Interviewing podcast

1:03:21 hr | 3 months ago

Ep 29 MI in College and University Settings

"And welcome to talking to change a motivational interviewing podcasts. and. I'm based in Winston. Salem. North Carolina USA as always I'm joined by my good friends from across the Pond Glenn Hinds from Jerry. It is made the eleven, which is roughly the official two month anniversary here in states are reese for the Covid, nineteen lockdown kind of situation and I. Don't know that's probably roughly around the same time you run our things developing over on your side of the world. Yeah, well, it's still busy, but it looks as well that we have been furlong furloughing from work and lockdown and general, and it was extended for a further three weeks. On Sunday here northern the case, but open before nations to England are getting a nine sets their soften the approach, the change, the guidance from stay at home to stay alert. Whereas aleatory nations are stay at home that would follow the flow under the rise of the virus, arrival Camden London first and then move north. We're probably behind what's happening in. London bought as Alec I to. The roads getting busier. People are getting a I. Don't think it's complacent, but I think they're just going. You know what I can't stay on all the time. I need to get hyped about so there's more risk taken as people are have reached their limits. You know in some ways. It seems like every some parts of the US. Anyway it's been a successful at with saying. Saying home and social distancing every North Carolina statistics been pretty promising now we have a bunch of people that are going out into the world in a ways that they weren't before in stores that are saying that open, so yeah. I guess it remains to be seen whether whether this is the right time to do that or or making a potentially serious mistake was on. Consensus Booked Vale will talk about here in the podcast is but realizing that there's an ambivalent sitter rises on his. We have choices in A. We've got this opportunity stat home I'm most people have been doing for sex eight weeks. They're not seeing any difficulties arise in their life, so there's new threat to their own wellbeing. Undergoing will. Maybe it should be okay, and they see other people doing it, and then there's. Momentum Development will a third longer to do it and and Niassa. Case of we have to hope that figures don't change. Time will tail, and will I suppose we will adopt accordingly and one interesting thing, interesting thing about behavior change here for us anyway and I imagined for you all as well as wearing masks is become a much more common sites, and and certainly a new behavior for a lot of people I know for me. I'm not used to wearing masks when I'm out in public, but for many many years you would see pictures of Asian countries well before the pandemic. It's. Maybe not across the board, but it wasn't uncommon to see that, and maybe having some public health strategies like that, whereas relatively harmless, not very challenging and difficult to adopt that of. Maybe. That's also what's Ju-. Comfort. Entering the world in ways that we have in. An intestinal at data just days in consciousness on this is. Do you think it was? They were protecting themselves from us. Put given the nature and the use of particularly legs of Japan were. I understand that the war mosques if they were wail to protect everyone else, aside idea that the reason why you and I should wear, mass is not protect us from them with protective of. Expose exposed could set with this bird of what it is. We talked about motivation. It's about thinking about others that unconditional positive regard that what impact on my health another people and what can I do to ensure that they're expensive? Me Is positive. At might be that discomfort where Ahmad to do it for the well being of older people and sermon compassion. Towards the benefit. How about? Okay well, we have an episode here before we We welcome in introduce our our next guests tell us about social media, platforms and ways to rate and review S. thank you to everybody who's following us on twitter at chains talking. We to have a facebook page at talking to change, our instagram is talking to change podcast on for direct contact with myself or Seb. It's podcast at Glen. Hangs Dot, com, okay well, let's move on to our guests. We are quite to have a good friend of ours and colleague part of the network motivation viewing network trainers on, so we're welcoming. Peter Reeves to the podcast today. Low Peter get started with background and tell us a bit about who you are shared. Hey, seven Glen. It's awesome to be on the PODCAST. I've really enjoyed it. Listen to every episode. Episode I believe and I just think you're doing a great job. I can't believe that I. I guess I'm excited to be a part of it. I went to school and studied psychology at Wake Forest University. Which is where I now work, but it's been sort of a circuitous route to get back to that university. I studied psychology wasn't quite sure what I wanted to be when I grew up I. think that's typical for that developmental stage, but I knew that I liked school really like psychology so I went from my undergraduate work at wake forest to A. Program in social psychology, and that was at the University of Delaware there I studied social behavior and did a lot of work in a research lab very much enjoyed it. And one summer had an opportunity to take a part time job for a little extra cash working in a one on one behavioral support position with kids in a community or experiencing behavioral challenge of of one sort or another, and I absolutely fell in love and. Assert reevaluated my my direction, and although I loved my research trajectory. I found a passion and working with individuals in a more more direct way, and decided to follow that so around two, thousand, two, thousand, one I embarked on what ended up being around sixteen year career in public behavioral health, working with people who had needs related to substance, use mental illness, intellectual and developmental disabilities primarily around helping get them connected to services. They need to be. Be supported the community. It started as a direct service role and grew more into systems management manage care some training helping shape some policy, and so it went really from micro focus to to more of McAfee says five years ago I decided to do a little less traveling with my work and stick closer to home, and so one day sat my computer and I googled. Motivational interviewing jobs, Winston Salem North Carolina and up, opt my alma mater and a job within the office of wellbeing, and there was a lot about that that appealed to me number one. They knew what motivational interviewing was and valued it enough to put it in an ad, and at that point I had developed quite a passionate interest around motivational interviewing. Also I I didn't know what an office of wellbeing did, but it sounded really good to me, and it was at a place where it's university where I attended as an Undergrad and so in many ways it felt like home to me and ended up only. Only being two miles from my home, so the lots of happy synergy there in that discovery was made for you. It felt that way and the role was was an interesting one to me. In addition to sort of a general focus on developing wellbeing within the university context, it was really focused on supporting students in making healthier decisions in other words harm reduction related to alcohol and other drugs, so it was in an area with which I was familiar, but a little bit of a different target population than the public behavioral health work that I had done previously to. There's enough there to entice you to. Stretch. Your development was part of your own ongoing journey. There was something familiar, but venue and excited about it as well on scientic from what you're saying. Is that your journey psychology Turkey to place where in some ways you was like you're exploring the patterns of people's behavior, but when you met the people. That's what led GOP. One work directly with him an overtime and went to not necessarily backward as far as the pottage, but to mechanics of to. Influence groups of people and organizations, and here you are again in that realm working with individuals, but also within the systems. So you mentioned your relationship with motivation to vent paternity that came up and wake forest to practice and use it. Why did you discover am I and to what was it about it that the tracking you so much along that journey in the sixteen years of working in public behavioral, health. I was doing a lot of work and most of my tasks. Were based in this idea of general behavior. Change Helping folks that were experiencing challenges in their life. Helping connect them to resources and and helping to support them accessing the resources available to them to get to where they wanted to get, which is a theme that we're really familiar with and motivational interviewing. At some point in my career and I can't tell you exactly when it was or where I was working, one of my employers sent me to motivational interviewing training, and that's all I remember about it. I remember that I went to a training, and for whatever reason it didn't stick with me. It didn't become part of my my every day or or my consciousness fast forward towards the. The end of that period I was working with this amazing organization based here in North Carolina in the states that's called community care of North Carolina if you're not familiar. I really suggests listeners check it out as as a model of sort of managed care in a public health. Setting my role, there was integrating the behavioral health care for individuals into the physical health of health realm. And this particular program you can learn more about them at community care. NCA Dot Org. They were able to reduce the state Medicaid but it to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars each year. By using a really intelligent strategic initiative that combined smart use of data, so knowing who needed help with a very human and personal style of support, and that's where motivational interviewing came in so every single individual who worked for community care of North Carolina part of the on boarding process was they went through a two day, motivational interviewing training, and then there were ongoing. Refresher development workshops at a happened back at our local networks as a state organization than local networks in each local network had what they call a motivational interviewing champion, so initially I was a trainee. And then you know doing my work. There was a lot of exposure to it, and it seemed really interesting to me, and at some point, the person who is the motivational interviewing champion within my network was moving onto A. A different role, and I immediately raise my hands. I WANNA. Learn more about this, and so I got to explore more training and take on a leadership role, which really created some ownership for me around it and I found a passion in it, and so I'd explored development as a practitioner, but also as a trainer so I could help the employees within the network really developed their skill set. You mentioned Medicaid Which? That are unfamiliar with the US system. Medicaid is like the public insurance, maybe similar to the justice system, not exactly of course, but similar at least or way to think about it, and so you had this experience of being a part of a system or an agency that had a great deal of success with healthcare delivery at a cost I suppose but also providing really good quality care, also another example from your story without those the kind of micro part, severe work as well as the macro cards, so that both working with people and training people who also taking having. Having an ice words a larger system like a region in North Carolina, perhaps a whole entire states how outcomes yeah, that's exactly right, and and just as as noted earlier, and you've continued to pick up on. That's really been a theme in my work. I really find that I have a passion around the individual relationships and supporting individuals and my work as an M. I. Practitioner really helps me and in doing that work throughout my career. I've also really loved the work. That's a step back and thinking about. How can we as a system? Are We as an organization? Work better or smarter work more effectively for people in typically that involves Program Development Program of a valuation policy work. You know that sort of Macro Lens, and so that's a lot of what I do now wake forest again with a different population, but my work there around substances really divided into three categories, one is prevention and education work, so that's developing programs to help educate primarily college students about what makes the injured drinking dangerous Oh what is dangerous? Like what's dangerous about drug use and How can you be safe? The second tier of my work there as much more of this sort of individual support area, and that's doing intervention, work and individual work around behavior change for people who have run into trouble with drugs or alcohol, and that could be trouble with the conduct system. It could be medical trouble you know. They had to go to the hospital for overuse of collar, drugs or they say hey. Hey. What I've got some problems of this I really likes and help, and then the third tier is during my time. There are way we've developed. What's called a collegiate recovery community, and so that's a an identity group on campus for students who identify as being in long term recovery from addiction, and so we provide sort of a home within the university contacts to help provide peer support. Organizational support to students who identify that way. Do you cover the whole spectrum of the potential journey than the vigil may be on? What might bring them into relationship difficult relationships with alcohol. When do I can get support themselves? If it becomes more complex. I can get support from each other Ramadan always helping to turn for the commerce to professionals. Quite, a comprehensive approach to this and what ways does motivation to inform how you do that in high, does it where do to use it along that? Continue the main place, the most obvious link there is in that second tier the intervention phase, so we use a model that's called basics, which is an acronym, it stands for brief alcohol, screening and intervention for college students. Students, so specifically designed for this university population and Actually Bill Miller had a big part to play in the development of this particular model and predict gates. Now it's proven to be you know an evidence based practice in supporting behavior change around Alcon. Drug use in the university setting, and it leans heavily on the use of motivational interviewing in brief sessions where students will complete an. An assessment a battery of some tools they'll receive a feedback report from that set of tools, and then they'll sit down with someone who's trained in M I and have a conversation about houses working for you not working for you. What would you like to change? And how would you like to change it? which all should sound familiar to the folks and your audience that are? are familiar with motivational interviewing that sort of the primary way that motivational interviewing is used on a daily basis in my work. Description reminds me a lot of the episode that we did with Denise Walker not too long ago. Where her co episode us about USA feedback, and how to provide feedback in a strategic way in a passive way to help guide discussions around change so. Ideal plug for for that episode as well one of the things that in our conversations leading up to this peters. You've shared quite a lot about your view about. How well am I FITZ? Not just in the world of supporting college students who might have gotten into some trouble around drugs and alcohol, but just across a university campus when conversations occur with older adolescents and young adults that that M is isn't natural. Set for any number of professional that Nikki. You could speak to the ad that does exactly right. When I arrived at wake forest, one of the first things that I did as an employee work within a operational unit called a division of campus life, which is all the? Non Academic Student Affairs support programs that you can imagine might take place at a university especially a residential university, so everything from student health to university police. The Counseling Center residents live in housing. There's just a a huge broad and deep swath of professionals providing a bunch of different support roles that are about supporting the development of these students that are there to learn and develop academically, but also as people and to them save to help them develop so one of my first activities. When I got to wake, forest was I, did a presentation about motivational interviewing for the leadership of the division of campus life. Part of the case that I made was while. It is good that I have the skill set so that I can deliver this very specific targeted intervention service that is needed on campus to help students make the abor change. This skill set is also relevant to anyone on campus that has working. A capacity that may serve to support a student and especially a student at this. Critical Age eighteen, twenty, five, as our typical college or University Student Age, and that was really well received, and so I've also developed a training program at wake, forest and offer trainings to individuals within the campus community, and frequently my trainings include students, graduate students, professional students, such as law, students or medical students. Faculty who are actually teaching courses and support, staff and administrators, such as those people within my division is so that's been a really fun initiative to help people develop a skill set in supporting these young adults late adolescent young adults in exploring all the change that naturally happens at that period of life, but supporting them in a in a really helpful in support of way that's based in evidence to too much foot. Your describe support the culture of carrying within the college environment? That all of these individuals, even less than t described that it's almost like the village behind supporting. These kids can learn on their studies. Did all of the support staff. Who Gas in many ways are primarily driven by desire to make the environment conducive to these kids growth? And when they heard of motivation, the view of the effectiveness of that they saw and identified the potential. Help themselves to be supportive, as could be, and as a consequence of that the layers of people. You're describing the what's of thought as well as it again. It's back to that. Culture that you've created an APP that has been maintained and developed as must be very conducive if we think of the spirit I imagine. There's a lot of compassionate. Thinking Compassionate interactions not just with students, but I might some with with each other with with colleagues and faculty, Staff, Management and leadership I think that's absolutely right. I hadn't really thought much about sort of the inherent connection to mit spirit and taking on a career and student affairs, but I think there's something there I think you've tapped into something. That was thinking about this episode. And how ironic it is that we're talking about motivational. Interviewing with sometimes downplays the offering of of information right? There's some subtlety to it, so we don't discount giving information, but we were careful about how we do it right, but what our universities their institutions built on. Bestowing, information and knowledge on people in the irony is not not lost on me but I. do think that you're right that the people that find themselves working in these roles like healthcare workers are are really compassionate and engaged really invested in supporting these young adults in. Continuing that exploration of WHO am I? What's important to me? And where am I headed? And a lot of that development work happens during that time that people are way university in keeping with that thought about universities, being institutions that bestow information. And not just information about English literature something, but in information about what people are supposed to do in terms of job seeking what people are supposed to do. In terms of managing their relationships are dealing with their parents, or whatever it might be so what what has been your experience? I guess what is the people that you've shared with or taught mit to on the in the campus community that you're in what's been their reaction and their feedback to you. And how have they managed to adopt something that might have been quite different since so much of their roles before to tell young people had A. Life not lived there, so in addition to the trainings. One of the things that we do is anybody who's been through one of the trainings that we offer a way for us is invited to come to a monthly informal drop in skills development and maintenance session. We just called are Brown. Bag Lunch, so you bring your lunch and I'll have a an activity around my skill development ready, but usually we sit around a table and talk about what was your experience with using them i? Ha, how does it feel? In for those who are newer to M I in the university setting I don't think this is unique to the university setting frequently. The story is I. Get back are how do I get them to know this? How do I get them to do this? How do I get them to? And I think what we know from 'em. I is dead were more successful when we're supporting someone in. Hearing what it is that they want from themselves in shining a light on that through skillful use of reflections through exploring with with curious questions, and through cultivating true engagement through you know that being part of the motivational interviewing spirit when we're to connect and reflect together in the bigger trainings and in these sessions i. HEAR THE SIGH OF RELIEF That Oh, it's not my responsibility to get someone to do something. In other words to coerce some are redirect them towards this other behavior. It seems to be something that feels really good to people and fits with that sort of inherent desire to care for and support that you tapped into earlier as often as sadden when we speak to guests on the PODCAST and second my own expense news apps as well as that the motivation division offers us an opportunity to be much more consistent with whether owned values that were well established before we went down. Again the motivation articulate it in a in a way that's allies is to move forward and again that relief grape where people feel, they can unburden themselves off feeling responsible for all the people's decisions and other people's behavior. It's wonderful that you've created that Chen environment that Dan. I suppose consistent with the even spurt of Emma which is you? You're not saying you have to come to this, but it's here if you want it and people have a choice to come along, and it's gas. It's a reflection on what it is. You're offering. People continue to do that. Peter, that there's something that is nourish them time to come back on. It's been moist. Over again with his gentle. And sight to human behavior and human psychology on relationship, white people change in certain relationships anomalous and. This shift that's taking place down on the practitioners and practitioners skillset. Alexander go out and try. And I guess the reason medical biogas 'cause. They're already seeing it making a difference, and that's what's appealing to them I. think that's right, and you know one of the things that I see frequently with university students is and I think this is frustrating for these professionals that are in it to help is there's a bit of a natural divide between students and the administration. I don't know about you bona. I look back on my time as a eighteen to twenty five year old, there are sort of a a natural mistrust of. The adults who had authority over me in a suspicion. What is it that you're trying to do a joking laid? Say My unofficial title as Captain Buzzkill. Because the perception of the students is I'm there to ruin the fun and ruin their parties and prevent them from having fun. But when I'm able to connect individually with a student. And really explorer. What are their values? What are their priorities? What are their goals? What are my priorities? What are my goals? They're the same, so that's a big part of what we're teaching. It's reminds me of Bill, Miller's our plenary talk at the talent meant forum when he said Doobie Doobie do as what am I is you know and it's about that being part I do teach people how to do m I in the skills, and what is the spirit and and that? But the spirit is about how to be with someone and I think that can be a really powerful vehicle when you're talking about adults who are well past the typical university student age and then. University students are in their ladle adolescents, and maybe emerging adulthood, and have some of that mistrust when you really connect with them on a human level in a way that motivational interviewing allows us to do it opens up a really human connection that ban serves US fertile ground for a whole lot of behavior, change, work and I imagine that there must be some real intentional. Sir, go along with the. Process in. Gauging. There's some really intentional work that you're doing early on almost assuming. Maybe that's not the case for everyone, but almost assuming that the young person that you are meeting for the first time has some suspicion about what your motives are and spend however much time it might take to to really get to know the other person's be curious about their life, but also to I guess exude demonstrate that being part that you're striving for is really critical. I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about. How you go about doing that whether it's described the way of being and maybe even certain things that you find yourself saying kind of frequently knowing of course that this isn't GonNa, be just a list of catchphrases that you use without the genuine harborview coming forward also startled more about that engagement process. Let me. Start with a little anecdote that actually came up today in our brand bag meeting with M. I trainees, and then I'll I'll describe some that one of the things I love about. This is that we know from research that you're effectiveness and motivational interviewing is actually unrelated to degree so this isn't something that's only accessible to clinicians is something that people can learn and and people can be effective with, and so I can teach the university police officer has no clinical training at all how to deliver am I with Fidelity and apply that to the role, so that's a really great thing about, but this anecdote that came up today that I think is relevant to your question Sabah's. There was a woman who is on on the meeting and she said you know I've connected with this young man, and it's strange how we got connected, but we've formed a bit of a bond and. A really used my learning from I. Spirit to do that engagement piece in other words you know. Try really meeting him with. Compassion Acceptance Partnership, and in our conversations, being curious and seeking to vote from him, his thoughts feelings as hopes, his goals has motivations. And she said this young man is in a situation wherein he sort of off cycle, actually related to the COVID, nineteen pandemic with a number of his other peers us. There's a small cohort that was studying abroad. They've now come back to the states so there several months. I believe behind the rest of their cohort. But everyone else on campus. Who has left or was who is studying virtually is finishing for the semester, and so they're feeling very disconnected in their feeling a real loss of structure, and any sort of routine than I think a lot of us are experiencing during this pandemic that leaving him feeling directionless and disorganized, and so he's staying up late at night and sleeping during the day in and really just sort of. Of struggling and she asked him she said. Are you the only one in your cohort? That's feeling this way in there, but I guess there are about twenty twenty five of them the shirt and he said no, no I think a lot of other people are feeling that way. And she said well, you know. Have you brought that up with the faculty members? You're overseeing your program. And he said no way. Frayed that that might reflect poorly upon me as a student and I'm not I. Don't feel comfortable doing that, so there's something in that power dynamic between the student and the Faculty member and the Faculty member as ability to assign a grade, and in some small way control outcomes for the students that. Has Sort of eliminated the potential for partnership absent. Maybe some other work that we could do, but with this staff person who has a trainee. She had that connection with him. She was able to do that engagement work and really. Get to a place with him. Where they were well connected despite their age difference and difference in life stages, he felt really comfortable, not only inviting her these struggles that she was having he was having, but also asking for her assistance and sort of solving some of these issues, and so that's part of what I'm hoping to get at the sowing, the seeds of M, I, in a broad sense throughout the university community. Creating a culture. Of engagement so that when whatever decision or or challenge student might be wrestling with when they when they approach a professional on campus, that professional has the skill set to be able to engage them in a meaningful way, cultivate that trust, and then you know has the skills to support that person in sort of exploring what change they might like to see in their life, says you're describing that the first person that has to move to help these young people chains is the practitioner. To move their attitude to move their ideas to move their sense of responsibility that these young people are coming along and. There's an intrinsic Gurin an instinctive distrust bottles, for whatever reason you have just identified that. Young people will trust adults under certain circumstances, and they know who they can trust by the way the auto behaves. On That's the invitation to the people you're working with. You can get almost doom what you're doing. Continue to look this now. If that's the way you want to debate, knock yourself. But. If this isn't satisfying, there are certain things that you can consider thinking differently, which is first of all understand. These are kids between eighteen and twenty five Stella Developmental Process. The here to learn, but they're also hit a party. They're away from home on. They're doing all these things and they're still aides. Stage is different from ours, but they want relationship. They want guidance under the right circumstances. They're keen to learn the university students. They want to go, but it's not just academically. They're here to learn about life to. And sometimes they need to lean someone I think. That's right I. Think you're you hit something right on the head Glenn something that we. Really worked to include in our prevention and education where to, and that's a sense of authenticity in I we. Are Accurate empathy, which requires compassion and and this curious mindset. And really working to get into the mind of the person sitting across from us to the degree possible, and so I think university students at that age group really value authenticity. And some of that distrust comes when they sense the that someone's being inauthentic or playing a role. You know that's that's a place where I spend a good bit of energy when I meet someone for the first time when a student comes to my office and frequently when a student comes to my office, they're they're being required to do so by the or you know someone to conduct office that said. You've broken some rule, so go see Peter, so in some ways. I'm starting already in a bit of a whole with regard to building engagement. They don't want to be there. I worked very hard to ensure that. Embodying that spirit of? In the first thing that I do is I seek. Set the groundwork, and set the ground rules for someone, and we talk about setting the agenda so that there are no surprises. This is my role like to tell you a little bit about what's going to happen here. What we're GONNA do with our time out. Tell you a little bit about the rules with regard to privacy confidentiality, and that sort of thing assure you that this is a private space. What you tell me is between you and me and I really do honor that, and then the rest of the time I really like to get to know you. Find out what's going on with you and what's important to you and who you are? And spending that time to really set the agenda and and help them to understand what's happening. Here goes a long way to relieving some of that anxiety that they walk in the room with, but then using my skill set to meet them where they are to be their partner, and not try to put my agenda on them, but find out from them. What is it that they hope for? And how can? Can we get their mixture of the things that you're doing and not doing? There's a genuine level of authenticity certainly, but communicated first and foremost with transparency, and being very clear about role that you have what the conversation is going to be about, perhaps at times, even acknowledging that they may not want to be there, or they're being forced to go in and talk to you and maybe making Dodson that reality. Just really focusing the conversation on who this person is perhaps over, and above what they did or how they got into trouble, and then the thing that you're not doing is not lecturing. You're not scolding. You're not threatening. You're not doing any of that sort of work although I imagine you do you might at times. Provide some information about what might happen if. They found themselves in a similar situation, but not in a threatening or kind of controlling sorta wet and using the technique like illicit provide Eliza to find out if they want that information now. Would that be helpful for you for a lot of students? They're not interested in reducing their drinking. They're not interested in in reducing the frequency with which they party or the intensity with. With which they party, so maybe our shared goal is not getting in trouble, which might require some behavior change that does align with some harm reduction as well. It's about meeting them where they are. Because the alternative is, nobody gets anywhere to again. It's not willingness to shift the focus to word. The client is willing to talk so rollin talking about the Jenkin your normal what? You've got not get into trouble or naked. Collect because it's times if you're on a to use a soccer terminal as yellow yard here if you're called again and perhaps potentially your university career is going to be hindered or arrested. An. Even just explore not with them. Just what would that mean to you wrong on? You can't afford to do that again that that aspect of ourselves, Wu and motivational interviewing me describes reflexes. Go Look if you could call it again. You're going to get thrown a college and you don't want that because you're gonNA fall apart. There's none of that. It's just a case. You got caught. What does that mean ta? What he understands going to happen? Here's some information. If it's helpful to understand, the processes will on university. What do you think about that? If you get caught again? Likelihood is that you might have to take a year. Old wasn't mean the. An idea is just to give them the space to make a decision for themselves, which is again, we spoke to Professor Ryan and the emphasis was on autonomy Jew may have a desire, an idea of what could be best for this young person, but you're supporting their right to choose whatever pasta fail for themselves, even if you disagree with those choices, that's exactly right Glenn. Glenn and it's so refreshing for these for the young people in the office. Because of the opposite of what they expect, they walk in expecting to be punished, expecting to be lectured and when they don't get that, you can. Almost many times visibly see them. Exhale in relief and I think there's another component to it I. Think about gene twinsies workaround the I gen in. In this hyper connected digital native environment that we're working in that we're living in and especially students and walk around campus, and everybody's got their head down in a device, and communication is so rarely sitting down face to face and engaging with someone at a level of depth beyond when you going out. What did you do last night in that sort of thing and so? So i. think there's another piece to this in that is that people are craving that authentic human connection that these type of conversations is skillful, communications rooted an empathy rooted and compassion afford us, and they didn't even know they wanted so badly, but frequently we get students coming back voluntarily. I have a wonderful staff person who who works with me named Holly Holly Heave and Remember clearly, we send out surveys to our students to ask what their experience was. And there's an open ended period one of the comments that we got back was I left that session? Feeling better about myself than I. have in months. Let's put that in context. This is a eighteen nineteen twenty year old, who got in trouble had to go to the Dean, was sanctioned by the conduct process in a hearing the go meet with holly in a closed room by. Had other things they'd rather be doing. Sleeping might be at the top of the list. And came out of their saying I felt better about myself than I had in months I just I love the power that you know having an authentic and engaged conversation with someone can have, and you could see how that experience would branch out into so many other parts of this young person's life where the conversation about them, getting into trouble with drugs or alcohol may both, and they leave feeling better about themselves. A may have in months to then go forward and face there four or five challenging courses, and maybe a relationship challenge or a friend group that they're wanting to the active with or maybe even some extracurricular activity. That's been challenging I mean. You could just see how that conversation would have such ripples throughout a young person's life beyond just the presenting problem sure now imagine that they're sociology professor that there where they're struggling to maintain their great in that course is also trained in motivational interviewing that young person goes in to talk to that professor about it I'm not sure if this is the right major for me, and I'm thinking about changing my courses study how that conversation different with. With? That professor is trained in. Am I in a supportive way to have that conversation? About what are your goals? How do you want to get there? Versus someone is like Oh. No, you just need to work harder or whatever that Roy reflects type of conversation may be an similarly. You can apply that to they go to student health for some sort of health issue. A new had an episode about M I in healthcare, and how important those? The nature of those conversations can be or university police officer like we said, or they're having a conflict with their roommate, and that staff and residence, life and housing you know. How do you have that conversation in a way that helps students do. More. What's important to me in whatever I? Really hope to get out of this decision point. That I find myself out to kill very passionate to put the whale not just of. These young people put also. High to support credit environment where the adults not environment feel more purposeful in their relationships with these service users the students. What strikes me as a lesson to. It's while it may be vaguely in the short term. You know that kid laughed and you know just Higham high significant dot was is clear a way. You were describing it that that forty minute fifty minute conversation can chains a young person's experience and turn. It won't eighty degrees, but my guess is that left an imprint, not person that will last forever. That was a positive help and experience, which proves for full. There are adults out there who get there are adults out there who can listen and in some ways it opens the possibility that that young person themselves can then take that experience with them. And to not altered and that just the trickle effect of the more people who begin to think. Probably in what really is a more natural human way of relating that perhaps with forgotten? But that willingness to be with other people. Because the helps them, and that makes off bigger by helping other people, and that sounds really exciting, but the loose steps at your. Take Him with people close Jonah Ryan about Heidi chain that I'm just wondering what thoughts you have a boat would. How do you see that developing? What your plans of? What are your ideas tied to maintain? That Heidi reset sociology professor and how to create an environment where? They would want to engage in the learning process for themselves and become students. Almost it's a great question. I shared with the the infrastructure around supporting students outside of just the academic realm. Wake forest just for context for those who aren't familiar of a fairly small university. We have five thousand students in undergraduate, which is pretty small school, and yet we have two hundred fifty professionals employed within that division of campus life, and that's not even including all the graduate assistants and student employees that really make that that machine go and support that work, and then said No. Is this we we talked about? There's a professional organisation for Student Affairs. Administrators called NASA, and that group has fifteen thousand members and fifteen hundred member institutions. So that just gives you a sense of sort of the the size and reach and scope across the US then there's you know universities and colleges all over the world. And so I think that this is proven helpful for us. I know! There are some other Schools University of Michigan as an example, Mary Jo desperadoes got a great program. They're using motivational interviewing in their programming and I think there's a lot of potential for schools to create formal motivational interviewing training programs. It's not necessarily aimed at the clinical intervention, but more around creating that. That culture of being with a student, and then doing the supporting in skillful way in a way that aligns with an evidence base in an evidence base that feels great. That's the best thing about motivational interviewing. It's like a warm hug. That has a p value of less than point zero five. It's so good it can really appeal to to people who are really. Sort of research focus and then other people who are more in heart and feeling focused within our university. We're going to keep on doing this I. AM averaging around four introductory trainings a year at wake, forest and data gives people access to the concepts of M., I. Spirit and the skills, or is an in processes and. Sort of the introductory concepts within motivational interviewing, and then again they have them the ability to tap in on a monthly basis. I shared earlier. Are we have diverse groups that up on those trainings, students and faculty and staff alike, and so each of those individuals I hope will serve as an ambassador that goes out. Anthony University community and says hey did this thing and this is how that felt and that's really helped me because. Because like you said it's. It's also about reducing frustration in that helping professional or that professor may have an expertise in biochemistry, but less so in how do I support the student? WHO's crying in my office about the poor grades that they have are the the stress of juggling this this new adult life that they've inherited I just have a lot of hope for it. That will continue to grow and be seen as A. As serving integral tool for student affairs, professionals that really look to support students in a meaningful way like we're circling back to a theme from earlier in the conversation. This this micro to macro journey I suppose that you you keep finding yourself on and these trainings, these small group trainings ABC can growing and branching out to to other parts of the university community create this culture, really compassionate culture I also have to say Pete I think. That definition of I is perhaps the best one, certainly the most creative one that warm hug with a p value at lesson point Oh flies Now's great. Thank you, so in the interest of time. You've been nine o'clock here. Is We. Start getting to be and we always like to ask our guests. If there's something that they're that they've been working on or that. They see often. The horizon could be am related. Maybe not knowing you. The way we do is plenty on your horizon. That's not in my related, so just want you. Invite you to share a what you see coming up for you next. I'm very excited about the instagram account for this podcast for those who haven't followed talking change podcast on instagram. It is exceptional in Glen I believe it's your daughter. WHO's doing a lot of the work around that? Is that right? Daughter May needle, not only. Is it helpful in inspiring to me personally, but it's also you know something that we're looking at as an office. well-being is a the content just fantastic, and it's just been great to just talking to change podcast on as You. Know one of the things that. This isn't new. But one of the things that's really been exciting to me probably over the last year year and a half in motivational interviewing is really getting more familiar. With affirmations and really doing some some deep digging into that specific micro skill within ors. And I really want to credit the episode episode four when you had Steve Role Nick on, and he was talking about wearing spectacles. We sort of naturally go through assisted by reality TV in the evening news with sort of problem lenses on looking for problems everywhere. We can see them very clearly, but he challenged us to put on this other set of lenses that looks for strengths, and when you see the strengths, you call it out right, and that's an affirmations, pretty simple concept, but we need to develop that muscle like so much in 'em. I, it's a concept that's very reachable. It's something that we're familiar with. You really got to develop that muscle getting used to naming those strengths when you see them and that's an affirmation. So then. Our, good friend Mallory to Sao, does this wonderful project where she creates a deck of laugher mation cards, tapping into her joy and laughter and magnetic smile and I love using these laugher mation cards, which are really just a deck of cards that you can order and. I use them in trainings and people can pick up an affirmation card and secretly or very openly hand it to someone else in and say you know you asked a great question today, or whatever it may be an offer, an affirmation next step in this sort of real. For me I went to pre forum led by David Rosengren and Scott Caldwell to amazing trainers is really great, and the focus was on developing as a trainer. In really exploring adult learning theory in designing trainings were more effective for our trainees. One of the things that they really highlighted was this concept of elaboration. So that's building on what we already know, and that really aligns with the process of evoking right of vocation, and the the spirit concept of voting. They started our training on training. With this exercise where we focused on. Our strengths as trainees, so we were asked to talk to each other very briefly, and then introduce our partner with a strength that you heard from them, and it was really need to start the training with this application from a stranger in this focus on positive emotion, and which really helps with engagement, right another part of the process, and then also enabled us to circle back to the skill of affirming look how easy that was. You've just met this person. He spoke to them very very briefly. And you are able to generate an affirmation. And how did that feel and so than train together, which was a wonderful experience? Learn so much coach training with. And we tried that, so we had our at ten dis speak briefly with each other. Most of them had never met each other before. I think we gave them about thirty seconds to speak with each other then without telling them what we're going to ask them to do. We said now we'd like you to just talk for thirty seconds and share what you like about your job and a hobby that you have so. So was all the guidance gave. And then we ask them to introduce their partner by their first name, and a strength that you heard we didn't ask them to discuss strengths, but they have to go in there and find, and and what they heard, and I feel like the feedback that we got from. That was really really positive and seven. I were able to model it for them sort of ease them into it. Even though we were modeling, it and we knew it. We're doing. It felt really good to hear the Nice things that Sam had to say about me. You know in all of our learners started our training with these giant smiles on their face, feeling positive and feeling affirmed and sort of waking up and to the process. I think the it's applicable in training but I just don't think that the power. Power of affirmation can be overstated, and we know that they need to be genuine, and it's something beyond a a compliment. It's really more about a strength does not I like your shoes, but like the example that Steve Role Nick gave episode for You're a dignified person. And we heard about the life change that generated for that person, but I was thinking about this concept of affirmation and how? We wear those lenses and and they pop up. The strings pop up. We name them and there's power in that right, but I think that skillfully we can also go looking for them, and if I may just give a quick example with a student I think that sort of bring us bring us. Full Circle Eddie. Young Women in my in my office and she came. Through the conduct process and was not happy to be there and through our conversation it came out that her challenges included fairly regular cocaine use. She was a a daily binge drinker and used cannabis nightly to help her fall asleep. You know I didn't tell her that doesn't work that way, but you know so as we're talking through I used one of our skills that we have in my, which is scaling John Love and I asked her. If you were going to make a decision, I, I, asked her identify a target behavior. If you'RE GONNA make a change in one of those substances. Which one which one do you think you might make a change? And she said cocaine I don't need. I don't Wanna I need to stop that. It's not something I wanNA do anymore. I said so. You're really motivated. Chance. Oh, on a on a scale of one to ten with one being not at all motivated ten, being very motivated. How motivated are you to do this? And she said United Pretty motivation I'm like a seven. So that's really good you. You really feel like this an important thing to change now in terms of confidence on the same scale with one being not at all confident and ten being. As good as done definitely going to change us, how confident do you feel that you can make this change? And she said look an eight or nine so. That's really confident, so. Tell me. What is it about you? That makes you so confident that you can make that change and you're going to be successful with it, so I'm sort of trying to find out what is a in you. What is that trait about you sort digging for the affirmation and she said I'll tell you. I'm the type of person who now she's getting ready to affirm herself. I can't believe my luck. It's like gold you know. I'm the type of person who when I set my mind to something. I achieve it and I said. Wow, that's an incredible trait. Now I see why you're so confident. Could you give me an example of when you've been able to apply? Apply that? She's I. will so I WANNA be a doctor so I'm pre-med and the notoriously hardest course is organic chemistry and I signed up for organic chem and I messed up and I signed up with the wrong professor. I found out after registration that I had signed up with the hardest professor. Everybody says is the hardest professor I don't understand. The lectures really confused in class, and so that class meets on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays, and so I found out the other class with the other professor, organic chemistry meets on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so what I! I do is I. Go to my class on Monday Wednesday Friday. I then go to the other class, and just sit in the back on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and I go to all the office hours for the professor who teaches on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I've convinced him to meet with me to help me because I'm stuck in the other course section, but I need to do well, and I'm going to do well on our brought my up from a C. minus to a the reflections and affirmation it rights itself. Obviously the length that this young woman went to assure that she achieved something that was important to her. In, that example that she provided it was profound was inspiring, and then to be able to link that back to her confidence that she could make this behavioral change around a risky behavior, specifically cocaine use. It was really really powerful, and she did end up kicking the cocaine habit, and then circle back, and we work through reducing harm around been shrinking and around cannabis use as well so I just the power of affirmation, but taking it one step beyond looking for opportunities for affirmation, and actually exploring for affirmations I, think is something that gets me really excited. You reward, and and other people's successes new situation on your the curiosity that you helped for your own growth. As clear and as you described, the muscle would struck me was again. You mentioned David Rosengren. When we spoke to David, he described the difference between fluency. which is you know you've heard a concept of Radha? You know the name and you can say it, and then the shift, which is what you're describing the development of the muscle to a place. Where you can do it, you can be that way with someone and your willingness to allow yourself to be vulnerable, not process to try new things to have your thinking challenged by other people. All about your own development, and then seeing the reward, and I'm really grateful for your description off the readiness ruler that and just high. The tool is used to elicit from the client, their own reasons and their own Africa. Say for change like Anna Lovely. Description of essentially that young person or that person talk themselves and to change that they needed to make, and you bore witness to it, and not and not witnessing the growth took place so low example and very rewarding work I for yourself, but also match for for that that's as well and I really appreciated with us. One last thing we asked our guests as I guess a lot of people who have lessened to you today and you've offered. Some good examples mentioned some wonderful organizations that people may be curious. Curious about to find out more if they were to want to have a conversation. What would you be willing for them? To reach out to wear would be richie. I would love that Glenn and probably the easiest way for people to contact me would be through email. That address is P. as in Peter R. I V. as Victor E. S. at gmail.com peaks at Jamile dot com that's correct and just on the contact. People can contact us on twitter at change talking talking to change on facebook again grit show. Appreciate, your feedback and a new naval be delighted. She does an awful lot. Effort unted on our instagram account, which is talking to change podcast on direct contact with myself and said our email is podcast glare duck while you guys were talking. I looked up at episode number just to be sure that the make episode that was episode seven, so if anybody wants to just go directly to that after listening to Peter. Then that's where you go. Right up so watson information in there about affirmations and other things. Heater thanks so much for joining us. This has been a great journey through not just your own half, but really taking a focused as well as a really broad look at use them I with college and university students, so Peter thanks so much, thank you, guys. It's been an honor really appreciated.

North Carolina US Peter Reeves trainee wake forest professor instagram Winston partner Glenn COVID Bill Miller Wake Forest University officer Ahmad facebook Professor Ryan Alec I Camden
Haters Gonna Hate

Velvet's Edge

41:10 min | 4 months ago

Haters Gonna Hate

"It's a basic truth. People need each other. It's why Penn Fed. Credit Unions I members joined together for a better financial future for eighty five years. We've been there for our members and communities and we're here for you today. We can help you bridge a financial gap. Save wisely. Make confident decisions with your money. We know we are always stronger and better together. That's why we hope you'll join US membership us open to everyone apply today. Penn Dot Org insured by NCUA. I'm Katie couric. I'm Bozeman Saint John I'm an award winning journalist, and I'm a trail-blazing marketing executive, and we sound kind of full of ourselves, but together we're hosting a brand new podcast to help us look beyond our pandemic presence. It's called back to Biz with Katie and votes. Each week will interview the leaders and big thinkers in industries from Tech Education to fashion and pop culture to find out how they're adjusting to this new way of life. Listen to back to Biz with Katie impose on the iheartradio APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the velvets edge podcast. If you follow me on Instagram at Velvets Edge, one of my latest post asked for topic ideas to help learn educate more about the racial injustice conversation. That's happening in our country right now. If you have any thoughts? Please comment on that picture or D. with your ideas. I would love to continue those conversations on this podcast. Today's podcast was recorded a few weeks ago. With Dr. Gregory Parkes who is a professor of law at Wake Forest University. He also has a PhD in clinical psychology, so his research focuses on both race and law issues as well as social science I found him. Him through an article, I read in the Huffington Post about the psychology of haters. I want to be very careful with what I. Say here because I don't want anything to be misinterpreted. This podcast was recorded because of a topic that has become more and more fascinating to me. Why do you haters hate? My interest has been peaked because of observations to the growing number of trolls or the. The trolling culture that I see on social media. It's just a culture. I simply do not understand. However, this topic could also be applied to many things including race including your worker who seems to have a problem with you for no reason or reasons you don't understand or even political arguments or the arguments about corona virus in its severity. The overwhelming answer that I continue to find is typically. Typically that if you are the object of a haters hate very rarely actually has anything to do with you, but if you're like me and you are a curious person, you need to understand the reasoning behind it in order to let it go so Dr Parks and I suspect all of the mental biased reasoning and how to move past the hate and just keep doing you. Here's our conversation. Okay so let's just start with the basics. Why do haters hate? And heaters me. Get. Okay. Both convention is that. Late because they are envious. Or Jealous meaning that they. Think that someone else has something. Of theirs that they deserve right. Person doesn't deserter. Or. They think that someone has taken something from that. Has Jellison. Usually, it's the context of. A relationship. But. I think that there are broader ISA'S Y. Why Peters. some people are disposition haters. We call those budgets, okay. Just, you know they hate nine everybody ground. Some people. Aren't envious. Or Jealous of other people. they just don't want those people to have what they have. especially the hated on person as something of value or status. sometimes people hate on other because of ace animals because you're. African American. some people hate because they feel as though a person. is in a role that's not consistent with a role that ater thinks they should be in so typical example is might be a woman in a high status job. Physician or journey are judge or In politics Sometimes a hater is motivated by. The fact that they embraced the status quo and beheaded person is pushing. People or the hater to think about the situation of fundamentally way which the come home with them, and then the last thing I've been the thing about there could be many reasons. Is that the heater? Sees the hated hated person as a know it all thinking that they're better than The hater or other people, and that read certain level of dislike resent. The last one is is intriguing I. was writing about this the other day? Because sometimes that hate is warranted, so honestly is not eight. It's not if the person doesn't really know what they're talking about, and they're not. Sophisticated in their understanding the era, but sometimes we hate on people who actually do have a deep. Knowledge Skillset Manera all the experts but increasingly in society. We say experts being presented so I think those are some of the wellsprings from which hailing flows of though there could be across. Okay well, so when I mentioned when I I reach out to you I mentioned to you that I've found you through this article that you wrote for Huffington Post about the psychology of haters, listening to you talk about just why haters hate even. It's so interesting to me because in all of those definitions that you just gave. Typically, it sounds like that hate has more to do with the hater than the subject being hated upon. Would you say that's true? Yes though the heated. On, individual or entity could be. A NON living entity okay. Is a trigger for some ways for some reason, right? So interesting, so what? What would a? Easy definition of a hater be you mentioned a couple of different resources. The Oxford Dictionary Urban Dictionary. And then there was another article written by Michael Strangelove that describes a hater, but they all give a specific definition. Do you have one that you go by? My definition is. that a hater someone engages in rationally. Level dislike. Of some other person or some other same. Usually that frost the hater, the engaged in some kind of bizarre behavior. Maybe that may never get to the heated individual or entity, but nonetheless engage in some. Behavior, now I think the common definitions are acting as someone who's envious and I think that's right like I said before, but I think it pays short. Shrift to what hater is because I think that there are many other factors that that from your trigger a hating. As the interesting article a few years ago, heater is really nothing more than a critic, which is someone motivated by certain centers, objective fats that leads them to negatively evaluate. Another person and arguably another thing. I think that that is a good definition of credit. The heater is different because they're not motivated by fax. They're motivated by their motions. Their feelings right concert once that leads them to not you evaluate shacks around the person or thing that they hate or hate on. Any objective way, and so that added layers were hater is that there are mostly driven and often their judgment decision making is subconscious that they may not even be aware of who may writing normally. They're not aware of the fact. That They are evaluation of the heated. person or thing isn't even rational. which makes it difficult and the ant riot? Because right think rational, but objectively they're not one is going to be very difficult for them to desist or pullback some Hayden. it's going to be difficult for them to engage in a rational way with a hated person or thing, which means the behavior as I said before it could be quite bizarre, but also it means that as the same does hate. Is GonNa hate? Me It less likely to pull back from the level of critique or hostility that air engage him. Honestly, I think one of the most interesting things I read in your article. Was that once? A person decides who are what they're going to hate on. Just kind of what you're explaining right now. It's almost impossible to change their minds right so like even if you are presenting them with overwhelming factual information, they may already be so set in their decision to hate that they they cannot see it as fact. Well Yeah I. Agree so one of the layers to being a hater is more. you know social scientists call motivated recently. We see a lot politics. And that's where a person is emotionally. Motives believe something. And they are so driven to believe this thing. That a look for facts that confirm what they believe, support with, it will leave and they ignore. Or. Minimize facts that would undermine. What they believe. And given this drive to leave a thing. It means that you know you go back to the phrase Betas on a hate. It means it makes it less likely that they on their. Can pull back and also makes it less likely that others you will try to deter them from. Hating will be successful in that endeavor. Right so even if you tried to argue them, and we'll talk about this in a minute, but. Even if you try to argue them, they are so set in their ways typically that they are not gonna WanNa. See that that part of the argument in. Can you explain a little bit about confirmation bias? Let's talk a lot of the different bias that come with this because you talk about this in your article, but this is the psychological aspect that happens and it's. There's a different kinds of bias that happened in haters brains, and they were strict us from allowing in evidence that goes against our thought process, or in this instance hate specifically so can you explain confirmation bias? Yeah accomplished by some five minute bias. where? There's a tendency to search for. Interpret or focus on in in remember information in a way. That confirms an individual's preconception. If I believe that. Allah's is a horrible Co, worker. And I'm hating Alice but objectively. Alice homes said in every day at seven am when we only have to be in at nine and she gets an early. Get ahead of the game. She's a great would meet. The great team player She's trying to get set up for that scene as she does this day in day out. And then one day, Alice comes in at nine fifteen. I'm more likely to recognize. The Alice came in late one day I have. Alice chain in early the past six months mainly because it confirms what I already believe about house, the the thing is. I'm not consciously shrines. Look for that information. Remember it Akash, right? My mind automatically goes with the fact that Alice was late and it does not pay attention to the fact. That alice has consistently early for many months before so that's an example observation sear only paying attention to the facts that prove your point, not everything else happening. Zach what about attentional bias? Tells you by is. Is similar to confirmation bias when you simply pay attention information, more selectively than you pay attention, other information way it works in hating is a semi abused. Same analogy that you you're more. Attentive to the fact that Allah shown up late loss and you are the fact that she. was consistently early many months before this something, a little more insidious about. Confirmation bias than intentional. But they may play out with Sam well. Okay and sort of similarly also would be selective perception. Can you explain this? Yes so selective perception similar. Bias. Used elected league perceive certain types of information and selectively don't perceive other types of information so. The same you think about it. You can think. Selective perception. So I actually think that focusing effect is another really interesting, it's where you you put undue weight on certain aspects of events, especially the ones that cast the negative light on the hated object, so it's a similar idea, but instead of like you're saying instead of focusing on the seven am. You're going to put so much weight on the one time that she came in at nine fifteen. So? They're all very similar, so. Important thing is that. I don't invite you. Please remember that it's not conscious riots that out once a look for this information. It's your mind automatically. Goes to. So you know. There's There's a theory that the mind and it's been proven in many studies. The mind operates on to system cognitive judgments. System one is automatic subconscious. error-prone and system to is conscious deliberative and makes far less errors most of our judgment decision making rob as by system what we have constantly deliberate in take time to think everything we do whether it be how we brought to work every day or getting up going to the copy the maker in the morning and preparing your coffee it would be. We wouldn't get a lot done. Quite the we're on autopilot right problem as if most of our judgment decision making system wire. then how do we explain Cincinnati areas of which we make big errors in judgment, decision, making and quite often what happens is we make decisions by system wide? And we made errors but then we used system suited slain at wet. So out of context. Put Back. In a context. Where an employer says! We're we believe in versity here. WHERE EGALITARIAN AROUND RACE Gender Sexual Orientation. And they say what we're GONNA promote individuals managerial positions who have consistently shown up to work who been great team players who gone the extra mile but they've only promoted mad. And then. Of course, the question Cana should be raised. Why only promoting men? The employers not gonNA automatically deferred. Sue The narrative about discrimination. And Park illegal sanctions, but the rain or reason why they're probably not going to. They didn't perceive that they were engaged in -scriminate. So? They'RE GONNA use. System suits explain why they did what they did and when you explain. What you did from Assistant Q. Respective, you can only explain what you know about yourself cautiously. and that's not going to be that you you discriminate. Setting. If you look at haters. A hater for the most part isn't gonNA. Say you know what I did. X Y and Z because I. Just all life is I. Know they're going to say I'm a rational individual I'm logical I'm thoughtful and I did X Y and z such a person for these what I perceive is rational reasons onlookers I'd say could look at that if they're painless. Close attention and say what's your argument doesn't add up. in a doesn't add up because one. peters are driven by sub-conscious witches judgments desires thinking. About they're not aware of. To they can't explain the world from the perspective of those unconscious or subconscious, fraud desires wishes feel. Looking our best means taking time for renewal including skin renewal, but anti aging can be so harsh irritating leave it to bird species defined natures, gentle, yet powerful retinol alternative, but Coochie all and make it the key ingredient and their birds, bees, renewal skincare line, but all is gentle on the skin, and can be used every day and night. The renewal line includes affirming moisturizing cream, refining, cleanser, affirming ice cream and. And, more all formulated without parabens, phthalates, s and Petra Latam for anyone looking to reduce the look of fine lines and wrinkles into firm and brighten their skin. Birds, bees, renewal skincare line is the natural choice. Just go to bur spy's dot com slash renewal and take time for today. Birds, bees, renewal skincare line with Makuuchi all a powerful retinal alternative. That's gentle by nature. That's BURT BS DOT com slash renewal. Guys, it's bobby bones I host. The bobby bones show, and I'm pretty much always sleepy, because I wake up with three o'clock in the morning, a couple of hours later I. Get all my friends together. We get into a room and we do a radio show. Share our allies. We tell our stories. We try to find as much good in the world. World if he possibly can, and we look through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country artists. They're always stopping by to hang out and share their lives and music, too. So wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W. MC in Washington DC or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP. So, is it? Would take too much effort to think about it consciously like you, you say in the article. These processes have nothing to do with how well educated or intelligent. The hater is or not, so it's not like these people are just dumb. It's that whatever the motivated reasoning is itself deceptive irrational, and it lies outside of our conscious awareness. So is it just more effort than not to actually put thought into? Consciously why you're doing what you're doing or thinking what you're thinking. It's two things. Effort Fall. So in order to over in among the ways to override sub-conscious a cognitive biases. To be mindful writing to. Be Very introspective. Sometimes to enlist the help of others friends who might give you honest critique concede backers say. The other thing is that. It's just emotional. And for a hater to step back and ask am I motivated by things that I'm made the tests. Right if you see as a racial gala -tarian realize you're motivated. Dislike somebody because racial bias. That can be jarring so you. It doesn't behoove Yuda. For many people a step back and ask himself. Does that motivate them? If you see Yourself Resin honest, upright, forthright individual at, but you step back and take off assessment of your conduct behavior with respect to some of the person started saying you realize you're Tribu your petty. That might be to Jarvis again. There may not be significant motivation for haters. Engage them much introspection either right right when I initially reached out to you. Mentioned that just the pop culture aspect of this like how prevalent this is especially on social media, reality TV is a huge of this and I'm very fascinated about the entertainment aspect of hating like why do we as human beings gravitate towards hating in a way of even wanting to make someone a villain like myself, even watching certain shows, and even though I can have factual information that these shows are not true that they are heavily edited to make me think a certain way. I still emotionally get attached to creating villain a hero. Do you have anything to say about that? Like what it is in our brains that makes us wired that way. There could be. As. One of the things that triggers eight. Zero Hall. Which is you? Don't want the status that person as. But a person of high status. You simply might resent. And you want them to have their. Come up at you. Want them taken down a notch? Okay, it could be envy, not saying you specifically, but sometimes. We want with somebody else has. We think that they aren't justified in having? The perception of what they have the reality by often when we look behind the curtain. That's not really what's going on exactly. I look at a professional athlete and say I can't stand. such-and-such athletes because. They were wealthy, and they're on TV all the time. They've got beautiful women all around. Let in reality. They may be close to be bro. Financially give you don't know. The other is the most most contagion. That the feelings that a person or some other people have made, be contagious, amongst other groups of people ask the titular that may be particularly the case in a social media or media, contacts and fat face looked at it troublesome this not too long ago by running an experiment on facebook to see if they could ship people's emotions They did a study of him. How easily they people's. Emotions and facebook, so some of it may simply be if you're watching a show and person A. is. person be you may simply by sue. How person feels. Felt that way about the and. Okay see just get emotionally attached to their emotions almost. Yes. You're connected to the emotions of. while. That's so fascinating to me because it is I, found myself. I work in the entertainment industry. I know the nature of spin right logically. Publicist does I. Know How this all works and yet I still find myself being drawn into certain emotions or emotionally attached like you're saying in logic sort of can go out of the window with that. Well keep in mind that it's also conscious Ri-, right we conscious. They've be easier offers against them, but the way that skill individuals marketing were right at a company is not to appeal to your conscious wants wishes, hopes and desires, but it's to appeal to your subconscious hopes wishes wants and desires. And offering things visually our tactfully or In an olfactory sense that evoke range of oceans that simply trying to tell you directly. You should want this product. Rights wouldn't have the same. Same, as fact wouldn't be as significant profile. Right, and in fact you have mentioned in the article that sometimes when presented with factual evidence that contradicts what we already think, there can be a backfire effect when in fact you can show the people or show these FACS, and instead of convincing them to think a different way there so set in their ways, the SCO, specifically haters I think too, but there so set in their beliefs that it in fact can make them even stronger in their own beliefs. Yeah? Sometimes people are emotionally wetted their beliefs. I mean an inside zoo. You know a motivated reasoning. All right and that motivated reasoning parsley comes out. Or is often used in the local psychologists face. We often are very committed to a candidate or a leader or set of ideology. And there may be deep weaknesses with that leader or ideology or candidate, and which is not prepared to really think through all of those complexities right at. When someone presents evidence to you back and fundamentally undermine what you believe about that person or that ideology that little party. Or the person that you're reading off. Instead of grappling with the complexities of with facts, sometimes, individuals simply doubled down. On what they believe because they're so mostly committed to believing they filter out evidence that could That could ship away at that relief. That belief system, right? It's called the backfire. You see it all the time in the world. That people they just don't want to have. grapple with that information. Take a young lady who a a friend of her says I saw your your your husband with some other woman in a motel and she. Doubles down says. I I no longer once, my friend. You can't be telling me the truth. Though her heart, she probably knows that. Some truth to it. It's just too painful to accept facts. Right Gosh, it's fascinating, so is there any resolve to this hater issue because we've mentioned it in the entertainment world, but this is such a broader issue I mean. We see it like you mentioned in politics, the racism issues. We're having right now. Even honestly with the current, the current pandemic just corona virus. There's a back and forth of. Is this real as this not real? You know I think there's the two sides arguing that out right now. Is there any resolve to? Changing this. Did so I mean. There's plenty of. About how people can change their world and how the Hade. The question is are people motivates us the information right against the doctor fouts right, yes, motivated. US what the actual sciences solve a problem or do they want to go with their gut with air emotions, and and there's a there's a polarity in society where many people are far more comfortable with their got wishing hushes, which is usually not attached to resolve the problem. because. There are too many pitfalls in following. Your gut functions intuitions, not to say size is perfect, but science is and social science included. As at least methodology that is applied by Firts to. Control external forces and make it more likely that methods being used can predict what's really going on or offer more practical solutions than than guessing so I mean there are two sides to this point as the hater. And the hater asked. The be motivated knocks wannabe a hater. I don't think anybody can convince race. I won't say that. The the. Part of it has to behaviors after novel. And Our, that is. Being willing to take on a stop of how irrational thinking is and irrational and caustic, their behavior might be. And, so like I said before mindfulness practices suspect someone who engages in mindfulness practices on a regular basis, is probably less likely to be a hater, because they're more in tune with what their feelings and emotions are, and a probably in a better position to regulate control that. Another would be to write down what you really thinking. Seal it because seeing a paper may provide more clarity than simply just going and acting on our. Another us that have an honest outside critic. A friend who gives you feedback on your behavior that you're willing to listen to. And so a friend may be able to say. You know the way you engage with A. doesn't seem wholly rational seems motivated by negative emotions, and it seems to be no basis for those negative emotions, and if you're the hater and you're open to such feedback, it may make it more likely that you'll. You'll rethink how you're thinking and certainly be saying how you behaving. The other is sort of coping with the hey. Right recognizing that you're dating somebody on somebody else, but turning that heat and the something positive, so if you're envious, you see this envy, literature, envious person, a instead of trying to take down I am A. Why don't you try to rise the level personnel? COWORKER! And they're in a managerial position in your now. Instead of trying to undermine them as manager. Why not put in the kind of effort of Eight? To get to that position. And Bahrain. Any kind of unfair value judgments Fi. Those who decide who gets promoted managerial position then you may. Be promoted right because they're the sweat equity instead of try to take somebody down. On the other side of the question is what can heated the hated. Person Do. And I'll focus on my hated person and not empties think editors probably care less because of the fact that the hater is probably less significance to an Ansi like. A football team to our football team an individual player right right. You know simply cowering their irrational arguments right, so let's say it's a Person WHO's a CO worker. The hating on you does affect your work environment. And a bunch of arguments about why they have an issue with you, then the arguments just don't make sense right and they don't make sense because. Aiding is the Arash so. Let's say they save my issue With Person A. is that. They didn't come in on. and I don't think team player. the hated se, but here's my time far. Are Coming in on time. The past six months back in early has six months. Off Five days of each week of hater may say well. My issue with you is that you know you. Sometimes leave early. Hate a person. Say with US my top car. I've not left early. Stay one time, and I take my child to a dentist appointment, but you don't have an issue with this other person and they regularly regularly early. Surly the behavior may say, but but my issue with you is that. You're not plays you long much rates and say. I took a long life right one day because I have copies appointment other than that I. don't take one sprays. The point is. The logical fallacy that a hater sagacious all wounded goalposts. None of those are really the reasons. They're fishing for reason that makes sense to them for why they don't like this person. and exposing the fact to cater. And maybe the other individuals that really the things that you save bothered you about. Or just not true. None of them are true. And you're looking for reasonable suggests that. You're trying to find a justification for disliking me. Not Disliking me based on some real justification, maybe eye opening not simply to the hater, but to others and others authorized of it. There may be more refined to mention The other would be if you're in a organizational contexts, is reporting right especially if it becomes so toxic. At it's detrimental to your personal experience there. If you're an employee for example or you know, another example might be see this. The NBA players sue fans who are sitting front row. you know May. And they're. They're fans of another team. Arguably Hating on player from the team, they don't like and saying cruel the May. Offensively touching player is reporting scurity right getting them removed the last thing I'd say, and these aren't the only. A ways to be able to hate him at. This point is. An hate us. Hey Any number of. HIP, hop. Basically the argument is do you glow up? Blow up right and that's another approach. Right that the hated individual can say. I'm willing to take this hate and use as fuel. Give you even more reason to hate on me. and so yeah, in such tools, energy can charge an individual to accomplish even more significant things that they've accomplished pass. Do you and glow up and blow up taking that one with me today? Okay, Dr Parks. Where can people find you? While the law professor Russell Law Wake Forest University School of law. I've been here eight years. A teach classes in civil litigation solar noncriminal arms. Race them all social science. Awesome right there I wake forest website. My website is Gregory Arts. Net okay. Fine me there BLAB JD. On twitter. And at the also revolution off facebook. On instagram. And if you're interested in my writing a authors page on Amazon, DOT COM, okay all right and range of different areas. Not, just about haters right? Those are the various places where. Individuals came back. And you actually have a new book out called a pledge with purpose can tell us a little bit about that book. Yeah so. Act that engaged in my fraternity as a story, African American fraternity, actually the first. intercollegiate it off file at Cornell University in Nineteen O six and I do research on lack. fraternities and Sororities, and so this is a book on these organizations which looks at their history of racial uplift and empowerment around the turn of the twentieth century the. Early to mid nineteen sixties, a plant with purpose, subtitle lack sororities and fraternities and the fight for equality. Often with a good friend of Mine Matthew. qe Is a sociology professor. At the University of Connecticut published five at Nyu Brass New York University. Press came out just a few weeks ago. You can get it on, and why he presses a website always get it on Amazon. Dot Com. Amazing you guys go check out Dr Parks. Thank you so much for being here. I'm going to link your Huffington post article in the Bio of our the description of this podcast to you guys. Go check that out. It's amazing. Dr Parks. Thank you so much. Thank you appreciate your time and patience. Thank you guys for listening. Looking our best means taking time for renewal including skin renewal, but anti-aging retinol can be so harsh. Birds B.'s has found nature's gentle yet powerful Retina Alternative Makuuchi all emitted it the key ingredient in their birds, bees, renewal skincare line, which includes affirming moisturizing cream, refining, cleanser, and more all formulated without parabens, dilates S LS and Petro Latam go to bird species dot com slash renewal and take time for renewal today. Hi I'm Tom Colosio. I'm chef restaurant. Her food advocate and the host of the new podcast called citizens chef on iheartradio. People my turn on the news and see the stories about Derek. Immigration policy our healthcare. ICY STORIES ABOUT On this podcast will toward the car political climb. Looking for inroads the food wherever we could find them. From the supply chain, and we hear the Tyson might be closing another plot, Monday and Tennessee Labor Mattis. Executive Order on immigration. We want American. SEPTA jobs who want American, said the healthcare. We WanNA. Take care of our citizens. Merson disaster. Our systems comment handle who disaster disbanded. That is reality. These are the stories of our food. Episode one of Citizens Chef is available now subscribe and listen on the iheartradio APP, apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Unedited] Marilyn Nelson with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

1:54:39 hr | 3 months ago

[Unedited] Marilyn Nelson with Krista Tippett

"Support for on being with Krista Tippett comes from the Fetzer Institute helping build the spiritual foundation for a loving world. FETZER envisions a world that embraces love as guiding principle and animating force for our lives. A powerful love that helps us live in sacred relationship with ourselves others, and the natural world learn more by visiting FETZER DOT Org. I'm KRISTA Tippett up next might unedited conversation with the storytelling poet Maryland Nelson. There is as always a shorter produced version of this wherever you found this podcast. Good evening everybody. My name is Jess I am the director of the Center for Jewish Studies at UNC Ashville and I'm also a member of the Department of English and I'm standing here with my dear friends and colleagues and sources of inspiration and Co organizers of the faith in Literature Festival Evan Gurney who's in the office right across the hall from Mine and I'm the luckiest person at UNC have Evan as my neighbor across the hall and Fred Bronson from Wake Forest University, School of Divinity, and I'm also the luckiest person in. The world to have gotten to teach Fred's book multiple times in a number of my classes that Fred come up and very generously being with my students and work with them and give them great ideas about writing and we are really happy to welcome you to this very special evening at the end of what's been an extraordinary day for those of you who had an opportunity to come to some of the other readings I think you know how much talent is in this room and how much good talk about art Faith and spirituality is actually happening not only in America but right here in Asheville North Carolina on the campus of UNC Ashville and the great energy that great discussions the great readings are going to continue all day tomorrow and tomorrow night. We'll be back again for another evening with Krista Tippett and tomorrow evening's guest. But now we're going to move on with this evening's program, and so I'd like to call on our provost are wonderful. Provost has been so supportive of me and all of my work since the day he. Arrived at UNC Ashville and I've never said this to you provost. Ergo. But I really look at you as kind of mentor even though I'm kind of in the late stages of my career. I'm not too old to have a mentor. So I'm very happy to have yet another mentor in my life. I'm going to call provost Logo Ardo, and he'll immediately followed by Dean Gail Day from wake, Forest University School of divinity with whom we feel so fortunate enough benevolent partner on this event so or go followed by day. I don't think I would presume to mentor chested I will see you can do. This has been a tremendous day for contemporary writers at the spirit is starting at one ten this morning. When are Cohen's album was released? Waiting for I was I was listening at about two in the morning and it's it's been worth away eighty two years old and I. Think he's all of our mentors. So I do WANNA. Thank rich chess has been the guiding spirit for this conference and putting it together I wanNA thank. Dana wake forest. Co convenient and she'll be coke and beating in a moment when I get out of the way also WanNa. Thank W. In the North Carolina Arts Council for their help with putting this together and our many partners and supporters are listed on the program. The the issue are the the realm of spirituality literature has been important to me throughout my career and I have a couple of passages that are meaningful to me. When I think about this subject, there's one in particular I want to share tonight though in order to just conclude my remarks, it's from death comes for the Archbishop by Willa Cather, and it has to do with the intersection of miracles and faith in perception. Where there is a great love there are always miracles. One might almost say that an apparition is human vision corrected by divine love. I do not see you as you really are I. See you through my affection for you miracles seemed to me rest not so much upon faces or voices are powers coming suddenly near to us from afar but upon our perceptions being made finer. Want our eyes can see and our ears can hear what is there about US always. So it's my pleasure to convenience gathering and I hope over the course of. Our perceptions made finer as a result. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Gail O'Day Dean of the school divinity at Wake Forest University in Winston Salem I'm pointing like this because I think that's east. I'm not quite sure where this building is but the idea was we're, oh, somebody's telling me. Okay. I'll do it better that were two hours that way. We have lots and lots. Friends Nashville. Super happy to be here. and. Somebody might be wondering what's the school divinity? So I'm just going to take a minute to tell you that is part of my welcome. We are a graduate professional school at wake forest whose mission is to prepare students for religious leadership in a wide range of settings from congregations is what people kind of automatically think of that's what a religious leaders you look to a congregation to find them. To. nonprofits to all kinds of places where there are people in need who are asking the serious questions about what life means and wildlife matters. That's what we do. Our community embraces the voices of many traditions as an essential part of that preparation, and we sure have heard many amazing voices today and our students have had to come here to for class. So we had some students drive also. We have a growing number of courses and initiatives in spirituality and the arts, and so are delighted to be co sponsoring this writing festival with UNC a thanks to all of you. For. Being here, this evening. And for sharing and expressing. This commitment to faith in literature. and to thinking that paying attention to words. Matters. And thanks to you've already seen the they all stood up already thanks to the three people who've really done the WHO've worked creatively and diligently to make this happen. And based on the wonderful readings that we have had today we're in for a great night tonight and a great day tomorrow. So thank you to those who worked and thank you to all of you for being here. Thank you day and thank you prove us through. So I'd like to try a little experiment right now I'd like you think back about the day that we're now bringing to a close as we transition into evening and night and I'd like you to think about just one thing for which you feel grateful something that you experienced today and I'm actually going to give you a minute or so if you feel comfortable doing. So to close your eyes, just direct your attention inward and see if you can recall one thing for which you feel grateful today. And when you have that thing in mind. Can really fire up the feeling of gratitude inside. And I'd like to ask us to do now is to expand that gratitude and extended. So it includes many of the organization's offices, institutions and individuals who have worked together to create this festival. It's not just about the three of us of the five of us from whom you've already heard but many many people had to come together most of whom you won't ever even get a chance to interact with and so hold on to that feeling of gratitude and see you can feel it expand outward as we include the names of the organizations institutions offices, an individual's that have supported. US. WC Q. S. The North Carolina. Arts. Council. The North Carolina Humanities Council. Mala props. Bookstore, and cafe. UNC Ashville 's any H. distinguished professor of humanities Dan. Pierce The ocer lifelong learning institute at UNC Ashville. UNC ASHVILLE CENTERS FOR DIVERSITY? Education. And Center for Jewish Studies. The. PB. Paris. Visiting Writer Fund the Goodman Visiting Writer Fund. Bob and Carol Deutsche the Amy Mandel and Katina Rhodus Fund the Office of our university's Chancellor and the Office of UNC Ashville is provost our office of university advancement and our cultural events and special academics. Program team. Also I can't leave out lily Percy the senior producer of on being with whom I've had so much pleasure working over the last six months trying to put this project together. Our gratitude to all of you those of you have directly contributed to making this possible and those of you who are sitting in this room and creating a sense of presence and receptivity for tonight's event our gratitude toward all of you is boundless. So thank you for being here and thank you to all of our supporters and friends. So, Joe I, think I'm going to take you off my list of mentors because you stole my thunder by mentioning. Leonard Cohen but. GonNa get to Leonard Cohen a little bit before that they're going to be some other wonderful writers who were going to step up when we're thinking about this we knew this particular event tonight and tomorrow night was going to draw a very large crowd and we wanted to make sure that everyone got a chance to hear all the amazing writers and so half of the writers are going to read a little bit tonight about two minutes each and half of them are going to read a little bit tomorrow night but I want to set the stage for what's going to happen. You might have seen in your program. We gave this evening, the theme of and there was evening and you probably recognize this language from the book of Genesis Adjust. So happens that we are present here at the very moment spoken of in Genesis, the moment of transition from day to night. On the Jewish calendar this evening in particular marks the moment of leaving behind the six days of the week and of entering the Sabbath. It doesn't matter what your religious tradition is nor does it. If. You have a religious tradition. Time passes we can ignore its passage or we can stop and pay attention to it. Stop and pay attention what a novel idea. What might we discover if we were to do so? Tonight to help us pause and mark this moment of transition. We're GONNA hear six of our writers who will read from brief passages short poems of their own Scott Cairns Amy Gottlieb Evan Gurney Shabaab Hush Me Laurie Patton and me. And so I'm going to invite us all to open our ears and hearts to receive the work they're going to read in that order. If you're interested in their full BIOS, you can find them in your programs and so please writers come and join me up here at the podium. Short trip to the. And then I was standing at the edge it would surprise you how near to home. And the abyss. Every shade of blue. All of them readily confused and oddly none of this as terrifying as I had expected just endless. You, find this business easy. When every breath is thick with hetty from the edge. You might not be so quick did what prefers it's more dramatic turning done out of sight. Enough. About you. The enormity spun. And I spun two. And reached across what must have been it's dome. When I was good dizzy. Since it was so near. I went home. This excerpt is from my novel Beautiful Possible Rosalie Karam. A Rabbi's wife reflects on the meaning of faith. He stands in the back of the panel sanctuary on a Chabad morning looks at the faces in the room and considers the narrowing field of her life. This place is her Ashram her place to think about God or rather desire the desire that sets all things in motion. She stares at these people with whom she has walked through the chapters of her life, each aging in sync with one another and yet she barely knows them. Prayer is impossible for Rosalie impossible for all of them. If her grown son's were home for a holiday, they would roll their eyes at the modest gathering and think such sad lives. Why do these people listen to a rabbi preach about God when the world is so vast with possibility? Faith. Becomes a habit that cannot be explained a few of the congregants practice it like a musical instrument. They opened the black prayer book and chuckle from side to side as someone wants taught them. Walter wrote about this in one of his books Rosalie remembers when he told her this story. On a research trip to Verana Z. I approached a man who was bathing in the Ganges. The ashes of the freshly cremated bodies floating around his legs. He was wearing a western suit and I was surprised to see him standing in the water with his pants rolled up. He said my father bathed in this river and cultured holy. So at first I came here from my father to understand the heart of the man who raised me then I. Came back again and looked at the people who were walking into the filthy river and I admired their faces and then I realized I was one of them a cesspool became love became dignity became everything that mattered love in this dirty holy water love on my body love on the faces of the people around me who could be me who army and the dead who wants loved this world to who once stood in this water just like me. Nearly. Every night for the last four years I've been marking time. Threshold moment by reading to. One or both of my two sons. Reading with my? Son. He stops my reading with a fist smackdown on the serif letters. Indifferent to semiotics abstract signs symbols whatever. Instead takes hold of the Codex shakes ways. Finds the hinge and opens to his taxed. Brings it like a plate to his lip sniffs dove then versa as if the leaf still smelled of Grease Calfskin, he craves. And carved hieroglyphs, the book will wear like a toothy grin. He stops drools, set sets to it a fresh. How he hungers for words turn flesh. Thank you. And there was evening. You were born raging lioness, a monsoon evening, the window wide and the world awash. With this, the window, the story of my first hours on earth my mother conjures a desire for perspective and possibility. I will grow up seeing the veins of history mapped onto this window equations of Math and myth the teeth of logic tufts of wisdom pillars of language roofed by silence every hue between identification and imagination. This seeing will begin from the most luxurious vantage point possible my mother's arms. And it is evening here in California evening of a melon share but sky and birds. With. Pencil Nips for weeks. In the ultrasound image, my baby is an amphibious enigma, a riddle wafting in unfathomable love thumb in mouth cold like a golden promise a dream scape reminding me of a flock of starlings forming dancing cloud. I, shudder at his ability. Recall a verse from the Koran. Do. They not see the birds above with wings outspread or folded in none holds them aloft except Ours Rothman the most merciful one indeed he is of all things seeing. The word aramon comes from Rom. Or. WOMB. The superlative form of Merciful Love, the most exalted of the nine, hundred, thousand, nine beautiful names of God. Driving back from the clinic in the fading light I feel vulnerable and empowered at the same time hand on my belly I imagine the warmth of the womb waters as my husband opens the door. Yes. Seen my two year old shrieks and delight arms thrown wide. The site quickens my heartbeat and baby use of weeks away from being born fields my burst of joy and starts kicking in response. Love was never spoken with more eloquence and I the poet in the House had nothing to do with it. The poem about to read is from a book that is a result of the practice of. What I call contemporary of reading or slow reading OR READING NOT FOR US Not for consumerist reading, but for being grasped by the text. And this is. A result of being grasped by the weekly Jewish cycle of readings and allowing one line in each of those cycles. To, take hold of one in a non consumerist way, and this is the Chabad poem in that weekly Cycle. The text is from exodus thirty, five, one to to. Moses, then call together the whole Israelite community and said to them. These are the things that the Lord has commanded to do. On six days may be done. But on the seventh day, you shall have a Sabbath of complete rest holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath? Day Shall be put to death. The rabbis rushed to say that we don't really die if we work on Chabad. They were sure. That the second soul. Who arrives on that day dies instead. What does a second Seoul look like? Not, a gray gentle man who comes to the door with a sad smile and leaves just as politely in a whisper through the fog. No. My second soul is crouching now under my chair. A panting animal. For whom breath and rest and son are the same Such a creature does not go lightly. But dances to every tune offered up by the wind. Language lesson. The word for grief in Hebrew is your gone. The word for dance is recruit. Strength is co off. Beauty Yo fee. Land Eryts. You could say, the dance of grief is a source of strength in this. Beautiful. Land. You could say strength is the only beauty in the land of grief where no one dances. You could say the beauty of dance is in how it expresses the strength and grief of this land. You are ready now to move on. The word for explosion is Pete suits the word for revelation is heat galut. The word for terror is a mall. The word for curse claw the word for blessing Brouhaha the word for love. Var. The word for exile is go live. You could say, let's dance. You'll be the blessing all be the curse. Will be the place of revelation where love and terror meet. That explosion you hear from afar. It's my heart that has been in exile too long. I am your Hebrew teacher. My job. To give you lessons in strengths and grief. Thank you all and thanks for your kind and generous attention. In a recently published profile of another one of our ages, great poets and songwriters. Leonard Cohen says. I knew there was a reason why I liked you. Anyway. Leonard Cohen says in a New Yorker profile that was published a week ago. I know there is a spiritual aspect everybody's life whether they wanna cop to it or not. It's their Cohen says you can feel it in people. There's some recognition that there is a reality that they cannot penetrate, but which influences their mood and activity. So that's operating that activity at certain points of your day that insists on a certain kind of response. What I mean to say this is still co and I'm quoting what I mean to say that you hear the bought coal. The. A Hebrew term could be translated the divine voice. You hear this other voice, this other deep reality singing to you all the time says, Cohen and much of the time you can't decipher it. Though they might not call it the bought coal, Maryland Nelson and Krista Tippett and my sense of things both hear that voice respond to it and help us decipher it. Whether it's by means of powerful poems in which history and family and the contemporary life meet and speak. or by means of dialogue, wise questioning and deep. Marilyn Nelson and Krista Tippett each in her own way here's the voice and helps us here it to. and. It's not just one voice but many and varied voices, singing love and grief yearning and wonder suffering and the release of suffering. Marilyn Nelson a three time finalist for the national book. Award is one of America's most celebrated poets. She's the author or translator of at least seventeen poetry books for adults and children. In two, thousand, fourteen she published a memoir which NPR named as one of its best books of two, thousand, fourteen and titled how I discovered poetry a series of fifty poems about growing up in the nineteen fifties and a military family. In `age one of my favorite journals, a journal devoted to publishing work that emerges from the intersection of art faith and mystery rites this about Maryland Nelson's work. American history as conceived by Marilyn Nelson is the inside out last shall be first version. She inhabits the voices of the overlooked in disenfranchised and shines light into forgotten corners that reveal essential truths about the whole. But if she is a revisionist historians poet, she is also a child poet, a mother's poet housekeepers poet and a scientist poet. It's this breadth of perspective from pole to pole past to present from spheres domestic to atmospheric that maker. So remarkable. Krista Tippett is a peabody award winning broadcaster and New York Times best selling author. And two, thousand fourteen she received the national humanities medal at the White House for quote, thoughtfully delving into the mysteries of human existence on the air and in print miss. Tippett avoids easy answers, embracing complexity and inviting people of every background to join her conversation about. Ethics and moral wisdom. In two thousand and seven Krista published her first book speaking of Faith in two, thousand ten she published Einsteins God drawn from her interviews at the intersection of science medicine and spiritual inquiry and now Christie's New York Times bestseller becoming wise and inquiry into the mystery and art of living opens into the questions and challenges of this century. We are extraordinarily fortunate to have this opportunity to be present with Krista Tippett and Marilyn Nelson, as they engage in conversation this evening. Following their conversation books will be available for purchase and signing. Thanks to mail a props just inside Carmichael. which is just across the Breezeway, from humanities, Lecture Hall and many in the festivals authors will also be there and I'm sure they'll be happy to sell copies of their books as well. I. Should also mention Evan dear that t shirt. And a t-shirt. That says, we have faith in literature and this t shirt is a benefit for our. English. Honor Society and our Literature Department Club and so if you'd like to support our English Honor Society Arlit Department Club, you can also buy t shirt over there in. Carmichael. Hall finally in case you're wondering tonight's conversation is indeed being recorded for possible broadcast a future episode of on being. If one day the conversation makes it s an episode of on being an airs on our own beloved w s you will be able to say I was there. Maybe not unlike the one point, two million men, women and children gathered at Sinai for the revelation. I was there when the voices of these two wise visionary women spoke please join me in welcoming Marilyn Nelson and Kristen. Kind of overwhelmed by that introduction. What a beautiful way to start the evening you know what a sacred space was created. Instantly I've been I've been saying jokingly, but it's not really a joke that. Part of our contribution as a show to the election year has been putting lots of poets on the air. and. We have and we didn't really plan it here. It's me. We didn't sit down and Syrian of it lot but we've done one poet after the other and here we are again and. Actually. I haven't analyzed that too much because it's more than. Just that it's soothing, which it is. You know what poetry works in us is to soften US and deepen us and those that's exactly the opposite of I think what the political spectacle has done for most of us this year. And then also. Elizabeth Alexander. Who you've worked with right so he has spoken about what poetry does it get under girding truths and getting at a true I think we heard this, which is experiences a minute ago that we were all we could find our way back to under girding truce and that's such an antidote to. The simplified fact versus factor the clashing facts or less than facts. So thank you for that and I'm I'm so happy and honored to be here. and. I want to thank the sponsors also I'm delighted to be at Newark North, Carolina Asheville. The Wake Forest Vinnie school. I am actually one of those people who took a nontraditional path out of divinity school and got a pretty good gig out of it. And and of course of you seek us. Our public radio station here. Who brought us on the air in the very early days when most public radio stations were just? Very unsure and somewhat horrified at the thought of bringing the subject onto public radio. What might happen So. Here we are, and I'm just delighted to be with Marilyn Nelson. It's been such a treat to be reading your poetry these last few days. You were born in Cleveland of teacher mother. And father who was a member of the last graduating class of airmen. and I wonder and you were moving around a lot. Yeah, and so how would you describe? Their religious spiritual background of your. Childhood. Is, however, you would however you would define that now. For most of my childhood, we lived on Air Force bases, and went to non denominational Protestant base. Chapel. Which meant Sunday school and Vacation Bible. School and the rest and When we went to visit my parents families, we would go to the traditional family church, which was usually. Ame African Methodist, Episcopal. and. There was not. Usually. A lot of talk about religion. It was more a question of how my parents lived. My father wept in church with emotion he just wept. And We had talks about. What were the right than wrong things to do but there was never any Discussion of theology or didn't we had no training what kind of? I wonder what impression that made on you that he wept in Church and did you talk about it? We never talked about it not. Impressed me yeah. Touched me. And I never knew why he wept but it was. The. The only other time I saw him weep was at the funeral of. A cousin who died as a child. But he always wiped tears. In Church. and. A lot of music in the House but I'm my mother. Played The piano and sang so we sang hymns and spirituals in the house and I guess. That may be an essential way of learning something about spirituality singing. You you also said something interesting. In an interview said. That when you as a child to read your father's old college poetry textbooks and uses interesting language, you said I think that a lot of my early ethical training ham from reading those poems. Yes I I still remember some of them, their poems that. Nobody reads anymore maybe you can find them in one hundred, one, hundred, one of America's best love poem? That things like. The fool's prayer? Do you know this one? The ODDS BEAUTIFUL POEM I don't remember the name of the poet. The kings the king. Shall I describe it? Yes, and also curious about ethical training how how home halts? Right. This is a good example I. think the King is having a board in the evening and he calls for his fool to. Come into the throne room and give him a prayer pray. Fool. The fool offers a real prayer. In which I only can say a couple of lines of it but. I think it has something to do with ethics when. It. These. Clumsy feet still in the mire go crushing flowers without end. These hard will meaning hands I thrust into the heartstrings of a friend. Goes on asking forgiveness for just being human being, and at the end of the of the poem, the fool leaves and the king goes out into the moonlight and repeats. The prayer asks for Lord Have Mercy on me a fool and I thought I probably read this poem for the first time when I was. Eleven twelve and I the lesson it taught me was about how clumsily we can treat other people how easy it is that line A. Hard well-meaning hands we thrust into the heartstrings of a friend how easy it is to be clumsy like that how careful we need to learn how to be with other people how delicate other people are and I? I. Took that as as a lesson in. Gentleness I suppose. Suppose. You also wrote a I found this intriguing that you you move with your military family from place to place and you said that. You and your sisters always imagine that when you left each place, it disappeared ceased to exist look. And you did. This book how I discovered poetry. It's a memoir and poems. And and I just WanNa make sure so. Out Of It yes, here it's here. No Yes. It's right here. These were palms that you wrote. Where they post, you wrote or that you later imagined. I wrote I later imagined. Their poems that were written looking back. Yeah and Trying to show, it's written for young people. Okay and I wanted them to have a sense of what it was like to grow up in this kind of family in the fifties. Yeah. So I just wondered. So I want to say I said to Maryland I have a few books here and I have some will read some poetry throughout I'm GonNa ask her to read some things. We'll read some of end, but I also said to her that if she just feels called to grab one of these books and read she can. But I wondered if you just read the last poem in this in this collection, how I discovered poetry I, don't I just. Very beautiful. There's a there's a famous poem in here. Where you describe how you were I invited to write. How you discovered poetry through this teachers awful teacher. said that. Okay. This one is called thirteen year old American Negro? Girl. On each of these poems has a little byline of where we were at the time. This we were on an air force base in Oklahoma in nineteen, fifty, nine, thirteen year old American Negro girl. My face as foreign to me as a mask allows people to believe they know me. Thirteen year old American Negro girl headlines would read if I was newsworthy. But. That's just the top of the iceberg me. I could spend hours searching the mirror for clues to my truer identity if someone didn't pound the bathroom door. You can't see what the mirror doesn't show for instance that after I closed my book and turn off my lamp I, say to the dark give me a message. I can give the world. Afraid. There's a poet behind my face. I beg until cried myself to sleep. Yeah so That's my sister banging on the bathroom. And I don't know do you want me to talk about it I for me? the. The crux of this poem is the fact that I really did pray. Give me a message that I can give the world. If you give me a message that I can give the world. I promise. I'll be true to it. I'll be honest to it that was. That was my my thirteen year old. Prayer. Let me be a poet give me something to share so. They did thank you. Take this back, but you can grab it anytime soon. And this one that you wrote. It feels to me like in a lot of your poetry public life. Implication even if it's not, you know even in that poem, you just read. Is this a point that you wrote at Age Sixteen here in. Democratic Dominion. Okay Okay. Lily. Prepare here in Democratic Dominion each man has his own opinion. He can argue loud and long he has a right to his own wrong. Is, why we're putting poetry on the election year. But you know you put poetry to family history to love and lynching too much hood and monasticism. So so what I want to do just for next time together is kind of trace that read a little reflect a little. Okay, we've talked about Leonard Cohen, but we haven't talked about Bob Dylan. I to say I what what I love about about Bob. Dylan. Winning the Pulitzer is it reminds me of a conversation with the Pulitzer, the Nobel. I had A. Conversation with a Paul Muldoon earlier this year and he said, you know he loves music he's the poetry editor of The New Yorker and he said you know we Americans think poetry but they walk around singing poetry all the time our music carries poetry, and then think of it that way and I loved Dylan getting the prize for that reason. Did You Because I know it's a little controversial. I just see you worked with Lutherans after college to that point and you're invited and you're a poet and you're invited to serve on the him text committee, which is another way. People in churches walk around poetry not calling at that and you revised every text in the hymnal trying to remove traces of racism sexism and militarism. Yes it was huge job. Remove militarism from onward. Christian soldiers. was. A job. If they're Lutherans here the green himmel. Is. The one that I that I worked on and it was really a challenge. I was a kid the other the other people on the committee were explosions and. With. Years of experience in congregations, but I was good at rhyming. Yes because. This is someplace else where we get poetry I. Love Him. Knows I go I belong to a congregation analyst Church now and I love the hymnal us because it identifies not only identifies the the writer of the text but also says something about who that person was and how this text came into being. There's a lot of really great poetry in hymnals I I would I keep trying to? Get a get some kind of a poetry workshop organized in which we sit together. And Work, on new hymns I think it would be a I. think it would be a really good workshop to do. You also write a lot about family you put put poetry to family. I you know I think writers in general but poets in particular. have this exquisite tool. For kind of getting inside the meaning of family and not having to make it neat and tidy. The homeplace is your. Yeah is are your poems where you really went back to the history, your your your lineage. Really. These are really long palms for the most part. So I didn't choose when to read but if there's one you want to read. But one of the things you've said about what was important to you. In writing. This is humanizing your ancestry. I mean but I mean just you know give a little bit of. Description now, these are very lively characters. These are a few generations of your family and aunts, and grandmothers and. You know it's the things that are happening in the world around them. That's what they're having to reckon with including the Ku Klux Klan, but it's also having babies living in big boisterous families serving in the army falling in love was an anti Neva who was the wild one fell in love with the white man. But I wonder if you talk about that work of and that calling for you of humanizing that story with that means. Well I think I don't I don't know what I meant when I said that I don't I don't remember saying it here but I but I my my mother believed that she was very aware of living history. She was very aware of the fact that she and my dad were making history and and she had grown up in a family that believed that about themselves. So several other people in earlier generations have tried to write the family story because they felt that their story their stories were important important enough to share and when I started writing the poems in that book, I had only the sort of myth of some of the family history and. doing research about the family was away of of M-, giving the myths, real flesh and blood bodies. And Some of them were so much more interesting than I had known before especially. Pomp great great grandfather he I found a lot of information about him before that. He had just been kind of own. Yeah. The Great. Patriarch of the family, but he really was a man who who did things and accomplish things. In the small world he was limited to and But it's no more than any family history. Every family history is fascinating and. We're all we weren't. We all live in history and. Whenever, you put your foot in that in that river you're changing it. You're you're you are making history you're influencing it. So I looked at my own family history with a great deal of humility. It's true that any of us could do that but but then it's this is such a condensed and vivid way to capture it to tell the story it's quite different from. A work of prose would be telling those stories. there's so much in every line stories in every line. Yeah. I think. So one of the poems in that one that I particularly. Don't. Do. It. Yeah. Glasses on again. This this is not my mother's family history, but it's one of the poems it. Really touched me as I was working on it. Because it. It's a based on a couple of stories that were told me by a Tusk Gigi. Airman. Burt Wilson. These are his stories are true stories. and. The last line of this poem is. I think. It's the most beautiful line of poetry I've ever written. And it's totally a quote. He just said it over lunch. So I don't even own it. So it's kind of a long poem, but it's Airmen, clone it's called Lonely Eagles and I think. I stink. The only thing that might. An explanation is the word, the spook Vafa. which my father had written over the class picture of his tuskegee airmen graduating class. So it's it's the black ve offer. Supposed the Luftwaffe yes. Okay. It's lonely eagles. Being black in. America. Was the original catch. So No one was surprised by twenty two, the segregated airstrips, separate camps they did the jobs they'd been trained to do. Black ground crews kept him in the air black flight surgeons kept him alive. The whole group removed their headgear when another pilot died, they were known by their names ace and Lucky Skyhawk Johnny Mr Death. And by their positions and planes, red leader to Yellow Wingmen, do you copy? If, you could find a fresh egg you bought it and hid it in your DOPP kit or your boot until you could eat it alone. On the night before emission, you gave a buddy or hiding places as solemnly as a man dictating his will. There's a chocolate bar in my Bible my whiskey bottle is inside my bedroll. In beat up Flying Tigers that had seen action in Burma, they shot down three German jets. They were the only outfit in the American air. Corps to sink a destroyer with fighter planes fighter planes with names like by request. Sometimes, the radios didn't even work. They called themselves hell from heaven this spook ve off. My father's old friends. It was always maximum effort. A whole squadron of brother men raced across the tarmac and mounted their planes. My Tint make was a guy named starks. The funny thing about me and starks was that my air mattress leaked and stark is didn't every time we went up I gave my mattress to starks and put his on my. One day we were strafing train strafing news you have to fly so low and slow. You're pretty clear target. My other wing man and I exhausted our ammunition and got out. I recognize starks by his red tail and his rudders trimtabs he couldn't pull up his nose he dived into the train and bought the farm. I've found his chocolate, three eggs and a full fifth of his hoarded up. Whiskey. I used his mattress for the rest of my tour. It's still bothers me sometimes I was sleeping on his breath. Just said that I was sleeping on his breath man a he told me this over lunch. This is a man I had not met before somebody said, there's a Tuskegee airmen living in the next town. Why don't you give him a call we met in he told me. A lot of wonderful stories and he told me this and then we met again in a little later when I had written his stories up in for this when he cried this, made him cry. Yeah You also. You have a character in there during the civil war area named Henry Tyler is. And and again, that's a very complicated character. And you you let that be there you just let that be they're also in the life of your family and your great-grandmothers yes. Yes. American history especially in the south. American history goes across a lot of lines that we imagine are impermeable their word. Hermione and. In my my family. believes. that. One of our ancestors was this white man Henry Tyler. And that the relationship he had with our four mother? was she didn't belong to him. It was it was during the years of slavery. But. My family believes that this is a love story and. My cousin and I went to the town, our family comes from, and of course, a lot of the old records have been burned destroyed, but we did find a deed. For a house in which he gave our form other diverse run a house, and we take that to be some indication that the story we had inherited was a true story that there was there was some kind of relationship there. Who knows what could have happened? What kind of relationship was possible at that time I don't know but you also he was a terrible racist and also a symbol in many ways or an young he went on to become a state Senator State Representative Yawn he he had been a part of What's his name raiders? Forest Forest, raiders was a famous. I can't remember his name and I'd have to read the whole book to find it. Off this man says forest who was A colonel or something in the confederate army and our. Henry Tyler fought under him and this man forest. Our for. For maybe. Purported for father. Went on to have. A. Career, in politics in Kentucky but this man, forest. became the. Originator of the clan. He went in that direction I don't know I mean these are things that are verifiable. The relationship is not verifiable. We just don't have any way of knowing things like that other than than DNA and. What we do know luckily for me in writing this book is that Our. Our family. We're the only descendants of this of this. Mr Tyler he had his children. He had children he married later and had a couple of children, but they all died without issue. So if if he was out for We are the oldest son. You. In that I also read that interview an image which was wonderful, which was referenced they asked You about. The years in which you were teaching writing parenting a child at the same time and and I just want to read. You said You said my book Mama's promises describes a lot of my experience. During that period, I came up for early tenure in an almost exclusively white male English department when my son was about fifteen months old I was unhappily married new to the community and had few friends though I had published a book of poems with a Major University Press and had poems in several major press anthologies allergies of younger American poets had to fight for my life because. My colleagues considered poetry inferior to literary criticism. I spent several years writing poems at three am because I had to do class preparations, I I went to the Er several times with heart palpitations caused by stress. Meanwhile, my mother was disappearing into Alzheimer's disease and then you said I would not want to relive that period of my life but I kept thinking of my great great grandmother's. Thinking if they could live through what they lived through. I can live through a ten year decision. So before I I WANNA. Do this my radio I D I want to get this right in meant to double. Check is the festival of faith and literature. Oh, that's the. So faith in Literature Writers O of the spirit and then faith and literature. Festival of. Faith. In literature. In literature. Okay. I have to write this down right. Faith in literature. A festival. Oh. Thank you. Okay. Festival of contemporary writers, the spirit okay. I'm KRISTA Tippett I'm Krista tiff, and this is on being today with the poet Marilyn Nelson at the University of North. Carolina at Bill. Down I had to write this everything else can be spontaneous. This reminds me always double check when I say I'm going to. Let's do it this way. Today today I'm at today I met faith in Literature Festival of contemporary writers of the spirit at the University of North Carolina in Asheville. Want to talk about your understanding of the relationship between poetry and silence. Said poetry comes out of silence. Would you talk about that? Yes I think poetry comes out of silence and leader leads us back to silence. At should I think lead us back to silence silence is the. Is the source of. So. Much of what we need to get through our lives and. Poetry consists of. And phrases and sentences that emerge like something coming out of water. They emerge before us and they call up something in us but then they turn us back into into our own silence. It's a gift in a way. It's a gift out of a kind of universal silence that takes us into a private silence I. think that's why. Reading poetry reading it. Alone silently. Takes US someplace where we can't get ordinarily poetry opens us to to this. otherness that exists within us. And learning to write poetry strike, it's it's a struggle but learning to write it is I think. To a large extent. An exercise in learning how? To listen to silence. Learning how to Evoke silence I think not one hundred percent sure of that but. I think so. In any case I think poetry and the silence of the inner life are related are connected and that. It's Don't you think you read a poem and you say And then you listen to what it. Brings out inside of you, and what it is is not words it's silence so. I wonder if that's A. One. Way To talk about what's happening when we my experience. When we poets on the air? is that people respond. Like like they were starved for this and they didn't know it. And And we do live in a time. I. Mean I think you've been. Year very winsome about how you you love technology in in many ways. Yet the presence of technology and the pace of our lives make silence this endangered thing that. We, we do have to intentionally create it. Create the spaces for the possibility of it and I don't think that was always true in in human history I think it's more and more difficult to find silence to go anyplace restaurant to airport and people are all figuring out ways to fill up the silence with some some kind of technology they're listening on earphones they're looking at smartphones and I don't I i. think this is a terrible thing I. think it. I- frightens me that I. Think we've become afraid of silence. Well, it's. It's not necessarily a comfortable thing, right? So So. So the technology there to rush into that, meet the discomfort and. But I mean, so you actually have. You've worked with contempt of contemporary of combined contemplative practices with your teaching. And maybe that's That's partly what you're doing. You're you're helping people sink into that. One thing contemporary practices do for us. Yes and and I think people are starved for that too. Yeah. The Times. That I've offered a few minutes of meditation at the beginning of clashes. Say You know we? We come into a classroom out of Who knows what we come into the classroom, and then we immediately starting to talk about something. Let's come into the classroom especially in a poetry classroom. Let's come into the classroom and sit for a few minutes in silence and get to the place in ourselves where poetry operates. Let's not bring all of the noise of the outside world into this classroom. Let's release it and enter into silence and. I've had students love doing that. Nobody's offered them that. Have has been quite a lot of recent research about the effect of contemplation. Right there was there. She is caught up with you now how much it enhances the learning experience and I think that's I think that's what I've been trying to offer students in my classrooms of had a lot of wonderful beautiful results. So I was really intrigued. You use was west point one of the places you started doing this verse. Yeah, and and so you said there was a you gotta template of Practices Fellowship, and I'm not sure what that means right as you were starting to teach at the US military academy at West Point. So it being tell us about that experience. Organization called the. Center for. Life contempt, mine mind and. I think it's still still do offer this fellowship. Yeah. They offer a fellowship which. Enables the fellows to develop courses which incorporate the teaching of template of practices across disciplines. So it doesn't matter what you what your discipline is. They want you to try to bring this in and I. Had applied for one of these fellowships. And Shortly I applied for the color shipping. Then always invited to west point to reading, and after the reading they asked me if I would be interested in teaching there and. I think the next day. I got the news that I had one this fellowship. So I said I've won this fellowship. And they said bring it here dewitt here. So I I wound up teaching two sections of a course on poetry and meditation to cadets at West Point it was it was. It makes me WANNA cry. It was absolutely wonderful experience I love the cadets we would come into the classroom close door, turn off the lights and meditate for five minutes at the beginning of the class. And then I asked them to meditate for fifteen or twenty minutes every day outside of class, which was very hard for them. Their lives are scheduled. Every minute is scheduled finding. Ten or fifteen minutes and a quiet place was really a stretch for them but they did it and they kept journals. And their journals showed so much growth during the course of that semester and. I loved them. Member, we made up mantras to meditate with one of them made up mantra. To swim in a heartbeat of clouds. So. I was I was also really intrigued. You. It sounds like you. You coupled that you you explored also wear that takes people and you use like musings. and communal pondering. That in those classes you. I mean you you didn't. happening, but you were also kind of. Traveling, with what it made possible. I mean just that notion I mean you you. You you ended up having these great conversation about just war theory. That came that that. Probably would have been very different if if the conversation hadn't started in that. Silent grounded can template of place even the notion? I. Mean the phrase communal pondering I feel like that's like what we need is a nation, right? Right, we have no idea how to do that but. It sounds so fascinating. I sit. Maybe one of the things we're doing in poetry readings. To Yeah was last night at the. The Dodge Festival Geraldine Dodge Poetry Festival in Newark and the Chancellors of the American Academy of American Poets Read Last night there twelve chancellor. So twelve readings. Each I think each reading was seven minutes. It was communal pondering the poems were the poets were different though the voices were different and every one of the poems took us someplace that brought something out of us from. Poems about member. Mark Doty wrote a poem about his he writes a lot about is about dogs. So we had a couple of dog poems, we had poems about grandparents. We had poems about losing friends or we had. An Waldman who read A. Tibetan. was our own bomb, but it was based on Tibetan Buddhist Chat I. Think. It was it was wonderful and it was a way of sitting and pondering together. And I think it's a very rewarding activity. One, of my college professors said that poetry rediscovers reality for us and in a way that's what happens you go. To listen to a poet and you leave not only having learned something about the poet's reality but also having learned something about the reality are living. and. I guess that's what communal pondering is. You know to that point. I don't know if this is something where we found this blog posts that was written actually by a professor who just gotten back from Sabbatical. And she was dusting her office. Did you read this I? mean the things you can find on the Internet this is this is the upside of the Internet Is this your poem dusting. Small is it I don't know if this is the whole thing you want to read it. She, put it on her blog he put it on her blog and and So I'm Gonna I'll read I'll read what she wrote. She wrote the blog title was the spiritual case for dust. and. Why don't you read it and I'll read it. Okay. It's in that shaded area. Okay it's part of it. I remember that part of it. Okay. Thank you for these tiny particles of Ocean Salt Pearl. Necklace viruses, winged protozoans for the infinite intricate shops of sub microscopic living things. And she wrote she wrote. Nelson's poem and my Dusty Office reminds me that the unpolished and ordinary is cloaked in the extraordinary. Even. As I settle back into my everyday life in that dust tiny tokens of the universe have settled into my office. Should I be able to sort through the MOATS I expect I would find fragments brushed from the cliffs in Ireland blown into the air by storms in the Pacific and burnt off comments that blundered into Earth's atmosphere crumbs of the infinite lie scattered across my desk. I'm suddenly hesitant to pick up my dust dust rag and wipe it all away. Read someplace a dust is one of the cleanest things on the planet and we. You can wash in dust. And we can't have rain without dust dust seeds clouds so that rain happens we wouldn't have without dust which I think is beautiful and that dust is full of life. that. The things listed in in my poem are things that are in dust that. Is Alive. A Sharon old, really terrific poet. told me once that she she had named the dust. Bunnies in her house. We need to do that. So. So can template prayer is part of your life? Is that right? Well. I'm yes. More of a back slider. Okay. Okay. Well, let's say you're drawn you've been drawn to before to. My my my. My. Friend, who is a former monk and who traveled around. Teaching Meditation This father this is object younger. Yes. He's a pretty intriguing character is very intriguing character. He says that meditation after you practice, it's an attitude it's not you don't have to sit in a certain way and hold your hands in a certain way. It's an attitude you look at the world with this attitude in a similar way I was thinking today earlier about methods of prayer which I've found. Just beautiful and meaningful. One of them is the prayer of just gratitude just feeling. Grateful. And one of them is a prayer I found in a book by a a non who lives as a hermit. I don't remember her name or the name of the book. But she offers a kind of prayer which she calls the prayer of the loving gaze. It's prayer. Just put your love into your eyes and just look. At the world with that gays and that that's what contemplation is about really it's learning how to find that gays in yourself and to put it in the world. I yeah. My Mom. I. I'd love to To delve into OPPA Jacob. So. So he's a real person. He sounds like a desert father wouldn't. Even Ave Jacob calling him that. Well. These hermits who could have been living in the desert of Egypt? Yes. Well. The first time I've visited. Someone I met when we were, we were in college together and to. Twenty years later, I found him living as a hermit and I went to visit and you were college with him we were in college. We met fifty years ago. And He was he was reading the opossums of the desert fathers to me while we were there and that's where all right okay comes from. Yeah. I turned him into a desert father. That's very cool. I mean you know you have all these? This is in the in this collection faster than light new and selected poems. You have kind of an odd. Jacob section here. Called, how to be human now? which is also just such a wonderful line I. Guess it's from Auden to discover how to be human now. Is the reason we follow the star. I mean, it's from small things like this, which you call truth and beauty. Jacob said nothing is too good to be true. And then there's this poem maybe you could read this little one. Where humanity begins. So, so so have you spent time in conversation with him and then kind of. Native Poetic Journal of it is that how this has emerged? The these this little sequence of poems here. I came across this on passage and ask him if he would think about it. And the time we were together. He had thought about it and made some notes and gave me a little talks. So these are these are. Attempts to catch something that he said in these in these little talks. Do you WanNa wear humanity beyond what you read that one? Okay. I call him Yakub but it could be Jacob Oh. Okay. But it doesn't matter that makes them even more get like a desert. Father. Yaacob said. Perhaps, our humanity begins in receiving the constellation of the ordinary. So, many people wish to find God in some parallel world outside or beyond this one. We do not need to search for God. We need to be open to this world of pain and beauty. It is in our attentiveness to this broken world. That God finds us. He also Yes. My friend is very. Well he spent. Film about forty five years living contemporary of life. And He Travels A. French speaking you travels around the Francophone World Teaching. Meditation. And I feel very lucky to. Have this connection with. An. Extraordinary man really. Here's another here's. One. I want to ask you about this another poem that you wrote about him of a Yakub said. There's a big difference between the mentalities of magic and of alliance people who spend their lives searching for God have a magical mentality thing is they need to sign a proof a puff of spoke of smoke an irrefutable miracle. People who have an alliance mentality no God by loving I'm really intrigued by that phrase and alliance mentality. What do you mean by that? Should ask him. I think people who have a magic mentality believed that God is something out there that we have to find to connect with and people who have an alliance mentality know that God is inside of us and in our connections with each other and with the world that God exists within and between. Not. Exterior. To us, but within US and between us I think that's what he's what he's. What he was trying to say. So we are allied allied with whatever God is yes and with. Everything we're part of. Yes, there is no separation we are. Apart of God that's. Isn't that the ecstatic experience the we we recognize that and. Some people know that. Just, naturally, other people have to learn it. But that experience of oneness. is something that everyone can. Hope for I don't know whether it's it's a gift that's given. but everyone can hope to receive that gift of just. Realizing that we're we're part of everything do who is a? Maybe. It was Merton who talks about being in the city and suddenly just Being in Louisville. Got A. Yes. Yes. We we can hope for that and that is the alliance mentality. Right? He Says I. I suddenly realized I. Love All these people. Yeah. Yeah. It. But it was that gays you're talking about it was his gaze had been. Gays can. Lead. US, toward that experience do I know that's true that if we look with love on the world and on each other we it affects us in the same way as it really simple. We're told that if we smile we ended affects US physically. If you just have a smile on your face and having love in your eyes the same love that you feel when you look at the person or people, you love most in the world, you know what that feeling of. The tenderness of that gaze is if you can take that gays and put it into your eyes when you look at strangers. They will feel it. Will, change things the world will be changed if we can learn how to do that I. Do believe this is true. So I. Wonder if you'd read a couple of poems. churchgoing as one of them. And That is in here. I. Just chose a few three here, but if there's something. That, you would like to read then we would all be happy to hear it. This. This one's good. I. Would admit to say this. Great. This is. It's a kind of A. Take on A. Poem by Philip Larkin called churchgoing in which Larkin young British men riding his bicycle through the countryside stops at a a ruined church and mocks the doors opening walks in and he says, he goes up to the homie and it's absolutely no. Faith at all, and then he goes to the cemetery and says that there he can feel something because these people died believing something. That's why they're buried there. So this is a kind of a take a take on it. Excuse me. churchgoing after Philip. Larkin. The Lutheran sent sit stolidly in rose. Only their children feel the holy ghost that makes them. And bobble and almost destroys the pious atmosphere for those whose reverence bows their backs as if in work. The congregation sits or stands to sing or chance the dusty creeds automaton. Their voices drone like engines on and on, and they remain untouched by everything confession praise or likewise giving. Thanks. The Oregon that they saved years to afford repeats the Sunday Rhythms Song by song slow. Lips. Recite to Credo Smother Yawns and ask forgiveness for being so bored. I too am wavering on the edge of sleep and ask myself again why I have come to probe the ruins of this dying cult. I come bearing the cancer of my doubt as superstitious suffering women come to touch the magic hem of saints. Robe. Yet this has served two centuries of men as more than superstitious can't they died believing simply. Women satisfied that this was truth were racked and burned with them for empty words we moderns merely chant. We sing a spiritual as the last song and we are moved by peculiar grace that settles a new aura on the place. This simple melody though Sung. All wrong. Captures exactly what I think is faith. Were you there when they crucified my Lord. That slaves should suffer in his agony. That Christian slave owning hypocrisy nevertheless was by these slaves ignored as they pitied the poor body of Christ. Oh sometimes, it causes me to tremble that they believe most who so much have lost. To Be a Christian one must bear across. I think belief is given to the simple as recompense for what they do not know. I sit alone tormented in my heart by fighting angels. One group black one quite. The victory is uncertain but tonight I lie awake again and try to start finding the black way back to what we've lost. A friend of mine who was. A part of the World Council of Churches for several years. told me that he used to travel around the world for the WTC and wherever he went in Africa he? Got The same two questions the first question wherever he was in Africa was, is it true that Americans have twenty different kinds of toothpaste? And his second one was do quite people read the same Bible we do. and. I think that relevant here was talking to somebody recently about mother Emmanuel Church. Yes in as. Sir, what their response has been, how extraordinary their response to that Horrendous Even know what to call it that horror was then. Pick. Up and go out looking for revenge. So that's what I'm I think the. Black Way. To Christianity in any case. Is Is. A way that other. Christians in this country at least need to learn. There's an. I. There's one there's appointment here called Farm Garden which just struck me but is there maybe there's something else that occurs to you that you'd like to read. That's. Where your mind is going right now. No I think farm garden is is about George Washington. CARVER I. Think. Isn't in that book. It's a mess one. Yeah. It's Lyric histories is it about George Washington carver? You have said that writing about George? Washington carver. Changed you. I know this isn't from carver. Okay and that did change me but. It really did But why? Why what was it about that? I had I had been writing. A series of poems about radical evil and I could see that whatever we Discover what? Evil weapon we discover somebody's GonNa, use it. There is no limit to our capacity for evil and I wanted to look at. A Saint's life to ask whether there is any limit to our human capacity for good. and. CARVER's life. showed that capacity he lived. He lived. What he believed he lived. His faith he and. I believe he was a saint. And if you read it any saints life. it's humbling changes your life why aren't I like that? Why can't I do something like why aren't I giving away everything I own? So. Yes. That's that's how carver affected me but this poem here is. Is from a different project. It's. It's about the life of Venture Smith who was enslaved. In Connecticut in the. Eighteenth Century. He was captured as a boy in I think Ghana. Brought to North America as a slave? Served for about thirty years under several different masters in Connecticut. And New York, and then he purchased his own freedom and then he purchased his children and his wife, and then he went into the freedom business saving up money and setting people buying people so he could set them free. So this is. This. Is from his life. And that's poems telling a lot of his story. It's dated seventeen about Seventeen Ninety Farm Garden Venture Smith you can find his narrative his. His. Life of his own story. You can find it online. It's if you just look up venture Smith is one of the first books published in. Connecticut. By. The time I was thirty six, I had been sold three times. I had spun money out of sweat I've been cheated and beaten. I had paid an enormous sum for my freedom. And Ten Years Farther on I've come out here to my garden at the first Faint Hint of light to inventory the riches I now hold. My potatoes look fine and my corn my squash might beans. My Tobacco is strutting spreading its velvety wings. My cabbages are almost as big as my head. From Labor and luck, I have much profited. I wish I could remember those praise songs we used to dance to with the sacred drums. Rooster is calling my hands from my stonewall in my meadow, my horses and my cows look up then graze again. My Orchard Boasts Green Fruit Yes everything I own is dearly bought but gratitude is a never emptying cup my life equal measures, pain and windfall. Effigies to scare raccoons and crows frown fiercely wearing clattering fringe of shells like dancers in the what did we call it dance? My wife and two of my children's stir in my house. For one thirty years in slaved I have done well. I am free and clear not one penny. Do I? Oh I own myself a five hundred dollar man. And two thousand dollars worth of family. Of Canoes and boats right now I own twenty, nine, seventy acres of bountiful land is mine. God or gods thanks for raining these blessings on me. I turn around. I own everything I, scan. So that the narrative aventure Smith's life was published in I think seventeen, ninety five. It's one of the rare stories in African American history this Family Venture Smith's descendants have been free for eight and nine generations. There is an annual venture Smith Day in East Hatem Connecticut at the Congregational Church belonged to and is buried in the cemetery that. there. Now there are scholars who are coming to talk about new discoveries of his life. And his his descendants come last year maybe the year before. venture Smith's descendants. went to Ghana. To the castle he remembered being shipped out of the you were there nine generations free it's such a wonderful story and. It, it's what American history could have been. It could have been that way. But this is a man who did this for himself he was a self made. Genius, businessman? was. An entrepreneur. Yes. He remembered every penny he spent. Here's a here's another poem about him. Manrique? Yes. Yes. The freedom business this is this is another portrait of him. About also about seventeen ninety, my poems are all based on his stories. Freeing people is good business in principle. You think they thank you for sixty percent of their earnings while they repay your capital investment business and benevolence for once going hand in hand. But people think your freeing them means they are free to leave or lolly gag and your money carefully banked then paid to the man out of brotherly love might as well be tossed down the privy. The first person I freed cost sixty pounds and had repaid twenty when the fellow stolen away by night. The second turn around and went back to his master. So I lost four hundred dollars for nothing. And the third and I simply decided it was best to part company. Frankly, the reward for freeing people is a broken heart. My son Solomon. Seventy. Five pounds sent on a sailor. His young life cut short by Scurvy, my daughter forty four pounds marrying a fool and contracting a fatal disease I paid for a physician forty pounds but Hannah died. God has mysterious ways and freedom is definitely not a matter of funds freedoms a matter of making history. Of venturing forth toward a time when freedom is free? Also edifying for this election season. Seed, which Alexis. Somewhere you said. There are so many interesting stories I'm sorry I can't write about all of them and I think we get that. And there's so many stories that you've written. About you wrote wrote a children's book about Emmett till. But really also about his mother I mean, there's so many stories your own from your own family and other families I wonder. Through. All of this And this is a vast question but how you would just start to answer you know how your sense has evolved. About what it means to be human what this life in poetry and storytelling has taught you about that. I don't know how to answer that wouldn't know. How how how do you maybe think about that in a way that would have surprised you. The beginning of your life I think I've become more open to to. I think I've become more open to history to people's Histories when I started I was writing about my own life and the life of my family and The last two projects I've done have taken me quite a distance away from those interests one one of the. The two most recently published books I've written. Are. ONE OF THEM IS A. History of the I. Two Hundred Years of the first congregational, Church of old lyme Connecticut Old Lyme Connecticut is a community that has been. Populated for the pro, probably the last. At least one, hundred, twenty years by the families of sea captains, whaling captains. It was a very prosperous community and and this congregational church started in that way, it was founded in sixteen, Sixty six. And the first church divided the congregation with. Women and girls sitting in the front and boys men sitting behind them, and then boys and servants and slaves sitting in the back. That's how it began. The First Minister of the Church raised his children with the help of Arabella his slave that's where it started and Working with with this specific history of a New England town of a prosperous new. England town seem to me to be. Teaching me something about. Our nation. Where we started. What we've gone through a the wrenching of our history and this church now. Three hundred and fifty years after its founding with the first minister keeping slaves in the attic of the parsonage. Take one of the ministers took off for a year off of his ministry to go and fight the NIANTIC Indians. This community now has a relationship with. Lakota community in North Dakota. So there are people going back and forth from the Church and the rest of ation every year they have They have a relationship with the only free tuition free. Private. School in Harlem. This is a community that has learned how. To be what they have always thought they were but couldn't see and it's just. It's it's it was a wonderful thing to work on. Pulling this history out teasing the threads of this history out some of the stories are just incredible at one point in the. Eighteenth Century Young Woman who was half? NIANTIC, that's the local tribe she was half. And Half African she was coerced into signing a document with an x agreeing to be sold as a slave. She signed an ex. An agreed to this. However, she was convinced to do it church by the it's in the church records. So yeah. But then you know they had to learn in the last. Eighty or a hundred years they've learned how to be a church a true church in the course of of the three hundred and fifty years. They had they really had to struggle. They really had to struggle. What does it mean? How do we live out the faith? We claim how do we bring it into the into the world and It's not easy. It's not easy. There are always people who want the safe route You know think that doing and two others means doing unto others who were like you right and Yeah. So I said to the other the other. PROJECT IS A IS A. History of the Tuskegee airmen but it's told through the eyes of teenage boy who believes he's Italian and Irish and who learns that one of his ancestors was a skier men. Stationed in Italy during the war and what what that does to his sense of of himself and I. Don't know maybe untrue because it's completely fiction this woman but working. Trying to. STRUGGLE WITH REAL HISTORY Has Been a way to learn something about who we are. I think less personally less who I am than who we are as a nation. What are we doing here? And how is it that we? Have managed to. persist. In, this. Blindness that we started out with how are we? Back to our campaign. Our we able to lie to ourselves like that. Yeah but. But what I think the stories you're investigating and telling or also true. About what we're capable of. And it's important that we that we see that fullness. Of what's possible I think so yes, right. Because that kind of story right now. Especially, we're just not hearing very much right. It's it almost doesn't seem. Possible. Yes The the the good stories, the stories of people who who do something wonderful. But ordinary people do wonderful things and they say I only did what seemed like the obvious thing I didn't really choose but most people don't make choices like that and I think we do. We need we need to tell stories. We need to learn about people who? Are Willing to put their lives on the Line I. Just, had a conversation earlier today about Little one of these cell phone videos that was made in Edina. Minnesota couple of days ago. In which An African American manned working down the sidewalk there was some kind of construction blocking the sidewalk. So he walked out into the street to go around the blockage and a cop immediately stopped him and grabbed him started pushing around and there was a woman there. You could hear the voice I visualize this woman Middle Age, White Minnesota woman she gets out of her car. She starts recording this and then she says what officer I think you should I think that you're being unfair but I think you should help him I. In a kind of timid way, she spoke up sheet, this man could have been dead. He could easily have been dead for walking down the street and I want people to know the story of this woman that was a heroic thing she did. And Yeah, so I. Think we need to be telling these stories and I think it also just illustration of the ordinary interwoven with the extraordinary, which is really such a theme that runs all the way through your your writing. I there's a poem that you wrote. A after rilke. Who I also love which I think is in. Within the. Fields of praised book. Page one, fifty, two maybe you could read that to close it's It's just lovely and quite quite. Another one of your voices. All right, this is a love song. How shall I hold my spirit that it not? Yours. How. Shall I send it soaring past your height into the patient waiting they're above you. Oh if only, I could shut it up, leave it to gather velvet dust someplace where it would echo you know more. But. Like to strings vibrating as the bow ripples them with a long caressing stroke we tremble drawn together by one joy. What instrument is this whose fingers make a cord beyond our capacity for all? How sweet how? You. Thank you so much. Thank you all for coming.

The Times Krista Tippett Maryland Nelson Leonard Cohen America US UNC Ashville provost North Carolina UNC WanNa writer Maryland Evan Gurney Center for Jewish Studies Asheville lily Percy Willa Cather Wake Forest University
Digital Transformation + Digitization with Red Hat Director of Strategy Brian Gracely  Episode 52

Build Business Acumen Podcast

52:44 min | 1 year ago

Digital Transformation + Digitization with Red Hat Director of Strategy Brian Gracely Episode 52

"Welcome to the Bill business acumen podcast where we deliver practical, knowledge and powerful guidance. Here's your futuristic host Nathaniel Skoula. So today, I'm interviewing Brian greatly. And if you'll Twitter you can get him at be graciously, which is be GRE C L Y, and he's a director of product strategy at red hat, the world's leading open source software company. He brings twenty plus years of experience red hat Wicky bone EMC virtue stream net app and Cisco in strategy port management systems engineering marketing, an AMI he's recognized as an industry leader in cloud computing in DevOps as well as being co host of the award winning podcast, the cloud cost he has a BS MBA from Wake Forest university. And I think you'll find this very interesting conversation was really great that you took the time to join me today, Brian, and I am very interested in learning more about you. And the projects you've you've worked on and stuff like that shirt. Thanks for having me on annual. Really? Appreciate it this morning. My pleasure. My pleasure. So I've got a Cup of just go a couple of picks mentioned before. And I'm still confused as and I think many people are actually about the difference between digitalization, which is one of the topics and digital transformation. So I think will kick kickoff by talking about digitalization. I if that Serology. Yeah. Sure. So. You know, the the terms can kind of sometimes get interchanged or get buzzword e and they get confusing. But I think in the simplest sense the way that I think about digitisation is substantially the process of taking something that let's say it's in the context of business something that used to be very physical based so going to a store or something that was, you know, location-based hailing a cab or something like that and figuring out. Okay. How do I number one make that a digital experience something that I can interact with CEO over the internet, for example. But more importantly, how do we make it something that can be personalized and we can learn from that process. So let's take let's take a simple example. So if I was in London, and I wanted to hail a cab, you know, in the past the cab sort of had full control over what that experience was as the end user the person riding in the car. I didn't really know when they're going to show up. I didn't really know what the fair was going to be. They didn't know who I was. There was no sort of loyalty to any cab companies specifically. And now what's happened is because I have essentially the internet in my pocket on your on your smartphone. And I have a service so something like lift or Uber or any other services out there that process of of hailing a cab is now become digitized because I have visibility of where they are. So I have a sense of how long it's gonna take do. I stand out in the rain. I not stand in the rain. They know I can look at who the who the driver is. So I can get a sense of how trustworthy they are do do. I want to deal with them have other people thought they were good good driver. But all of that has now become a digitized experience in. So you can begin to wrap a bunch of other things around that experience loyalty to a service an understanding of who the driver is the location of where the car is. And then that begins the process of will. Okay. What what more? Could happen beyond that. Well, basic things start to happen. You know, it's raining or the traffic is bad. And you go to Bill to communicate with that person. Maybe I moved from where I originally started. Because it was raining. I moved down the street to to the next corner. I want to be able to text that person or call that person. And so we've taken something that was very physical and location based before we've turned it into something that becomes digitized. I e we put the internet between your business and the person and all these other new interesting services customisations kind of spring out of that. So to me, that's one example of what what digitisation might meet. Okay. But I mean, all all businesses to some extent digitalized these days or most. Well, there's really two pieces to it. Yes. Every business is trying to become digitized. So whether that means your your buying experience moves to something online or digital whether it's a mobile phone or web application. That's part of it. The other part of it really is what do you do once? You've once you've done that digitisation because that's really where things sort of decide whether companies are successful or just kind of beginning to play the game. So let me give you an example of that. So. Just being able to put something online. It's been around for more than a decade. Everybody's had a website. Everybody's got a mobile app. These days the question becomes two things. Number one. What do you do when you've created that new interaction model with with your with your customers or with your business partners? Right. Is it just a a one time interaction? Right. I just went to the website. And I bought something. Or have you begun to understand? How do I learn more about that experience? When did they come? What types of things did they they search around for what did I recommend to them? What do I know about that person that I can enhance about trying to continue to make them a customer? What habits do they have all those things start to become two way interactions or multi way interactions? You're you're wrapping a lot of information around the experience, you're using that experience to make the interaction better that becomes the digitisation. Now. So that's one part of it. Do I have we have we made that digitisation rich and able to to drive more interactions or drive better experiences? That's one part the second part. That's probably much more complicated is the part where you say, okay. I'm the business. That's offering that. So let's him Bank where I'm retail or something else. When you're when you're having to make that interaction with your customer, or with your business partner more to way, more based on the data that happens, the interactions that happen now you start to have to say, okay, our internal business processes, and potentially the way we organize. Our business is probably going to have to change because we're no longer just saying we're taking an action we planned for it for nine months. We took an action, and then we're all done were essentially saying the business and the way that we interact with our marketplace or with our partners or with other things that will influence our market is going to be a constantly evolving thing constantly changing thing. And because it software that's now interacting with your customer as opposed to a person or a physical store, we have the ability to update that software change that experience used the data from that experience. To continue to improve and change it. So if your businesses is internally, very static your organizational charts, very very static the way that you communicate changes within your businesses, very static. You're going to struggle with the digital transformation part of that. Right. So you may have digitized the front end of your store, for example. But the digit the sort of digital transformation of what do I do beyond that within my company is the usually the bigger challenge for a lot of companies. Right. I mean, so did digitalization is the blanket topic which should include these transformation? Ideally, everything needs to streamline as possible reineck needs to be as easy as possible full of teams to to work within not business. So digitalising it just you know, using the data whether it's coming in from, you know, you'll old customer codes, which you know, you have and new data that you all assimilating from all over the place. It could be from from yoga analytics could be from your social media listening tools. It could be from anything else that you'll sort of plugged in. It could be weather data right up out IBM in the Weather Channel, whatever they bull few years. Billions of dollars. So so so then that actually opens up the the conversation around, you know, let's let's look this data. Let's actually analyze let's kick it around the let's create some let's create some new business models. Let's create some mole pro better processes, smoothie processes and actually just see if we're missing any opportunities raw. I mean, that's that senescence. What we're looking to isn't it? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, we're really what happens when when you get to a point where what you've what you've done is digitized. Right. So your experience is now digital if you will it begins to sort of open up a whole lot of possibilities about how you can start to say, okay. How do I not just give better experience or be more efficient? But because the cost of making changes is so low, right. So let's take a simple physical versus virtual example. So let's say I want I run a retail store. Run a clothing store, for example, if I'm not sure if red sweaters are going to be more popular season or blue sweaters and be more popular while the cost of figuring that out means I'd have to order a whole lot of inventory. I'd have to go to the store and have to put out red ones for a few days. I'd have to figure out those sell really well, and maybe the next few days, I put out blue ones, and I figure out if those sell well, but I had. By the blue inventory, like all that can be very expensive time consuming, and for all, you know, that day was just, you know, rainy and miserable weather, and nobody was going out to buy anyways. Right. So you did a bunch of work. Maybe you got useful information, maybe did online, you can simply say, well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to to build some pictures of people with red sweaters. I'm going to build some pictures of people with blue sweaters. And for some percentage of the people that come to my website. I'm gonna put the blue sweater out as the first thing they see and I can figure out very quickly. Is that is that drawing? Attention is that collecting people are people buying that. Okay. So the next day week, whatever I put the red sweater out there the cost of doing that of putting out those experiments digitally is infinitely less right, basically cost me nothing to do those experiments and I can start figuring out. Okay. Are there correlations between? Days of the week and colors are there correlations between what was on television last night for the most popular. TV show that people watched the people watching in the person were red sweater. Should I put that red sweater out there what's happening on Pinterest or any of the other like you said social media sites to figure out? How can I start to correlate things or associate things that maybe will help me as well. And so doing it when you start with digital as your as your footprint, the ability to then experiment with the business start to figure out what people would like becomes much easier number one, but also becomes incredibly less expensive to do. And so your ability to to tweak things for one percent five percent here, and there becomes much more manageable than what you ever did in a physical world. So so it enables you to so come up with all sorts of new possibilities in all areas of the business, doesn't it? Absolutely. So for example, you you might say, well, you know, you might be clothing store. Will a new might think will I case we've got great website. So how we get a tight this to the next level. I mean, I've been looking at getting some glosses. Yeah. So I'm getting glosses and had a look at some of the glosses in shop. And then I look online and a went to a site, which is you you can glossies online. Okay. So they said you could also on. I was just like looking on my mobile. It says please install flash right? Look at yourself and see these glosses on right how to install flash from is fine. Yeah. Right. Right immediately. That company his base it just lost themselves money. Right. What did do a win eyebrows? Looking design a frightened. Let decided I was gonna side money and just bought cheap power of reading bosses instead from shop right because my prescription and everything else, and I didn't want the hassle of all. Okay. But but then. Assaultive than just start thinking. Okay. So how go okay. I'm going to look at some manufacturers design of rhymes for when I do have some money to buy some design, a frightens when budgets, so I think to look I think it was police glosses all you know, it was one of these one of these time on brands could have been correct. It wasn't Amani. I think it was police will some some someone like that. And I looked on the site, and it said trial in the glosses. So okay. So I picked some frames stick my head in front of the camera. I wake wiggle my head around from left to ROY Eichel fitting for my head. So like, they put glosses on Anna tell you what brought it was pretty good. I'm not gonna lie. Right. But the thing is that shouli you is retailer won't would want to be there ahead of fuel manufacturer. Or at least the manufacturer would direct the business into your stall. Once you've decided what will I mean? It's just a a no brainer in and these. Muzzles can be old areas. Conway Ono Opas retail. I mean, the future of retail. Puzzling is very exciting. But I think that square footage is going to reduce and I think it's going to become more interesting. I mean, well, she also view on on on that. Well, I think you highlight two really important things. Right. The first one is so take your example of of glasses. You know, as things become digital as you no longer really care for lead set experience worked out great. Will you no longer really care? Did I buy them from the retailer or did I buy them directly from the glasses manufacturer far as you're concerned? That was a great experience whoever did that. So this digital digitisation model. This digitisation experience is really sort of disrupting business in that people who used to be manufacturers in their business used to be go to market through retail. All stores through sort of secondary, people will they no longer need those, right? The value chain may radically change because they can directly go after you. They can advertise on Google. They can you punch glasses into your search, and they may show up as opposed to the retail. So there's going to create some tension in the in the value chain in the supply chain between the the creators and the people who do retail, and what that's doing is alternately for people that are in the retail space, meaning things like they own real estate. They have stores and so forth there really having to rethink. Okay. Number one. Do I wanna maintain the real estate is that providing any value, and in some cases, the answer's yes. And other cases, it may not be may be shrinking retail. But you know, it comes and goes, right? There's usually some sort of of disruption that happens in the market. So maybe they don't need as much retail space. But then we do begin to see things come back into retail. So we see things like the apple store who said, you know, we're going to spend less time having lots of shelves stocked. We're going to spend more time allowing you to be in the store they'll be geniuses there. You can learn things in the store. So there's a reason to physically come there. Because there are people that still wanna shop that way automobiles are bought that way and other things about that way. But yeah, it's it's really forcing companies to say, okay. Number one. Can I create great experiences? But number two is my value chain, my supply chain going to potentially change here or get disrupted here where am I in that value chain and then? Given certain scenarios that could play out. What do we want to do with the assets that we have, you know, Israel estate and storefront is at still an asset. Do we wanna rethink what that looks like maybe we want to do other things in that real estate, but also move more stuff into digital experience? So it really there's not one right answer to it. That's the that's the interesting part of this. But it is making people really have to rethink those things about you know, what is our current business. Look like, what could our other business, look like our partners competitors? Our partners our partners, it really it really changes. A lot of things in interesting ways. Yeah. I mean, it's a bit like Dollar Shave Club isn't at the end of the dia may not that's that came from nowhere. The branding was amazing. They and they sold for like ridiculous amount money for a billion billion dollars to the to Gillette for business. Just came from nowhere right now. Thanks have a billion dollars. It's like, but the thing is all it's gonna take is an application on an iphone or an Android phone, which means you can do all tests. You know, you do your tests. A k you sit there, and literally you you gotta be crate you create the images of what you're like in different clothes with different hat cuts with different gloss frames. Yeah. All continents is. Oh, do I would blue blue contacts? And it's going to become a thing. I think that is ripe for disruption particular. I don't like the disruption. That's innocence was happening was being happening forever. I mean, one about IBM is the they all a very old company actually in schema things was talking to Winston Churchill's grandson the other day, the he's the founder of American angels. Which is a angel investment thumb. They have he's what with over thousand stops. And you know, what quite impressed that shit. We were so talking about that. It's just it's just so interesting. How? These businesses can just come from nowhere. And I think IBM is the only one really the I know of this actually stood around from that era. I mean is pretty old compared to if you look all the talk to companies most of them, most of them, anew, twit. Not even twenty years old, right, right? Yeah. There's always, you know, as we move from every generation of computing. There's always going to be maybe a few that survive into the next generation. And then a lot the domain so. Yeah, I b m has had survived through the mainframe era. They essentially created the computing market. They survived through the P Sierra. They're they're now trying to reinvent themselves through the cloud computing era, and you know, as we get into things like artificial intelligence, and the internet of things and all things that are going to become super data. Intensive you know, it makes sense as to why they would go out and acquire companies like the Weather Channel who have number one massive amounts of data. But you. About things like weather weather impacts, so many things that aren't just hey do. I take an umbrella to work it impacts supply chains it impacts, you know, all sorts of stuff that companies have to plan for so having that information being able to say, hey, could we monetize it in ways? That don't just look like you turn on your weather for the day. And see what the forecast look like can I help somebody, you know, forecast what they should buy. If I'm the home supply store or something else. You get yourself into lots of different businesses. And and again, it's really about the importance of thinking not just about your business. But like your supply chains your value chains your partners. How can you? How can you help them or potentially monetize those interactions? Yeah. Very much site though, I must site. It's quite exciting. Pro spit up in a sort of been involved with the CD summits for the past few years kind of helps with the social mounting that in twenty minutes in London and. David David Mathieson is a is a is a lovely gentleman. But then in twenty four teen listens to what the New York government would doing. And let's just give you scenario. I k you to the New York Neil government, and you say to them what to open a stall in New York. And this is this this blew my mind is still blows my mind if you think it's five years ago. Nearly now that this happened and the government then say to you, right? So we'll business you it. So you tell them, okay, I'm going to open a coffee shop k so what they do is. They actually analyze own of the footfall in the entire New York metropolitan area, the demographics of the people that are gonna be pausing post the front of your stole the Mt shops. Yeah. The pro sympathy to to public transport links balls of the coffee shops, eccentric cetera. Right. And then they say this is the best location few and it's out for rent. It's have much money per month. Right. Yeah. It's it's one of these things where again, I think it's a great. That's a great example of saying of thinking of yourself as a as a one. Function organization. So the government may be as in the business of making laws, and maybe trying to you know, maintain certain order in society. They're saying, look, you know, we also have a responsibility to to collect taxes to help build schools, and and one of the ways they're going to do that is to make make business thrive and do that as you said you've got a not just give somebody a licenses to to put up a coffee shop. But there's a lot of value that, you know, about your city that you ought to be able to provide help that business. Find the best place to be hopefully that's going to help their business succeed that's gonna drive tax revenue. It's going to help the city. I mean, it it's like it's a huge cycle that you want to be part of and figure out where you can provide value and the value. A lot of times always centers around the data that you have and the ability to collect data analyze data. Yeah. That's the core of digitalization. Isn't it? Is it really is? Absolutely. Yeah. So so in terms of digital transformation. Right. There are a number of different businesses in the well, they're, you know, they're small businesses that are medium size. They're large businesses. Right. Right. Right. Each one of those is it a different step different stage of digitalization a cane. So. When he saw with digital transformation. Well, I think the key when you think about digital transformation, you know, start start with one assumption, which is like you said we're going to default on digitizing the business, right? But the second thing typically is you have to realize that the transformation part of it while there's a technology aspect, and there are lots of people who can help you with technology, the bigger part of it. Typically is the the people that are involved, and this is typically the hardest part. So essentially what you have to come to realizes. There's probably a part of your business that their job is to say, hey, we're going to come up with new innovative things. Right. It could be business development or sales or whatever that function is we're going to cope with new innovative things. Well, their job is go fast, create new things have innovative ideas. Well, there's also going to be other parts of your current business whose job is is to create stability right there. The group that manages security for your business or. Or you know, they make sure that the website is always running twenty four by seven and so forth. And what happens there is as you're trying to digitize things as you're trying to move faster in the markets. You're trying to react to the market's differently. You create this this inherent internal tension between the people that wanna go fast and change things. And the people who are incentivized to to not change things to keep things stable to keep things secure. And so the first thing to really realize that you're gonna have to figure out a way to overcome that tension because you want the benefits of moving faster of collecting more data making decisions on that data and doing it in a way that that doesn't, you know, create undue risk on your business or create so much change that nobody can understand it. So that's that's always the first thing that that people kind of have to mentally grasp in it's really important that that gets looked at from the executive. Because the executives have to be supportive of the idea that, hey, this digitisation digital transformation important for our business is gonna make survive in the long run sort of top down encouraging encouraging of that. But also, there's gotta be some retraining and some some educating at the at the ground level of the business people doing the work to say, hey, look, we're going to change some things, and we're going to support you in how this change it's going to happen. It's going to feel different. We're going to measure things different the business, but kind of understanding that inherent tension of some things have to go faster and something still wanna remain the same. That's always the biggest challenge. And typically the the best starting point in terms of how we're going to make this happen. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, I think there's lots of people who all very scared about losing that Joel's. Yeah. Think a lotta people become complacent as well in in jobs Karez on businesses as well, and that complacency, unfortunately, guys anyone listening to this is going gonna cause either, you know, mass mass loss of jobs. All it means you need tight action lent. Something new, and you know, I would prefer to take action. Learn something new, and that's my personal attitude about sit but over an above above above this yet businesses have their own precious from from Stockholm shareholders and everything else. However, the needs to have some so of coal procession responsibility. Which shows the there is not to mass panic within that business says will look. We just wanna have you met your job easy. We wouldn't mean we wanna make you Joe better full you. I'm gonna help you to might Joe bets. Yes. We'll get a streamline as best as we can. But we will ensure that they're all plenty of jobs because I mean, not the other fair, the, you know, they're all gonna be any people walk in. It's just gonna be robots like with the Hitachi warehouse manager that they recruited in twenty fifteen to manage warehouse of humans, which is quite an interesting one. Right. Yeah. You know, they're obviously some examples that are starting to come up where we see automating take the place of of what were human jobs at some point. You know, what we find more and more, you know, in the in the sort of computer side of technology is that number one. I always tell people if you've been in in the technology industry, sort of the computer side of the technology Streep for any period of time. The only constant that's existed is change. Right. You're. Used to change you're used to having to learn something new on a fairly regular basis. It may be once every year once every couple years, but you know, fearing fearing change and being on the computer side of technology are kind of oil and water you sort of come to accept it. And the reality is in most cases, the business isn't saying we would we would benefit from losing all of your experience or losing having people to do these things what they're really saying is we just want to do things in in different ways. And we're looking for the ability to be to be adaptable. And so it it asks it says number one not really asking you to do anything radically different that you've done before I'm asking you to continue to learn continue to change. And and so that's you know, that should help part of the, hey, you know, we're going to evolve and the second part of it is, you know, you're kind of asking your your workers to to make some commitment to the business because the business is essentially saying we would like to continue to. Survive with to continue to be successful. And we want you to be part of doing that. And you know, if you've built a culture in the company where people enjoy working there. They wanna see the company be successful. They become successful as the company become successful. This is really doubling down on on a commitment between, you know, the company itself and the and the workers themselves to say, hey, we want to be successful. We want you to be part of that. And you know, in most cases, when when you present it that way, you find there's there's a lot of buy in from people. There's less pushback than there is by into wanna make things successful. Wanna learn new things and be part of the part of the change. Yeah. I mean, I think I think the people who innocence will will lose that jolts jokes will change dramatically the ones that needs to be looking anyway, really because experience. I mean, the experience is is valuable, and you know, all these people sort of getting causing a mass panic about a all I and everything. Else? And actually, you know, I mean, I was talking to talking to don't judge. Oh, the other tight said. And he said, you know, we're not going to be living in the in the age of the Jetsons anytime soon, and did might be smaller actually because that's what that's what people in technology like everyone to believe the actually all will we give it just use this mass hyping of a, Aw, and technology what it can actually do. And I I think that someone needs to put a hand up site. You know, wall a case. So we can do these things with AI bought. A is not connected. Yeah. That is used in very specific ways. And it is not going to create some kind of you know, ganja's fueled hallucinations of grandeur like eat on musk is sign that it's gonna kill everyone and everything else. I mean, that's that's. Attitude around it. What's your view on that one Brian? Yeah. I think the thing with with an emission learning. People have to remember that this isn't a new phenomenon. This is. Science and mathematics at suggested for twenty thirty years. And so there's always a certain amount of science fiction that goes onto. Hey, if if it's something gets taken to its its furthest reaches. Here's what it could look like and we've seen science fiction movies about that and books have been written and so forth. But but the real reality is that you know, with with AI with machine learning. It's it's now such an everyday part of our lives that we sort of forget that the the small progresses that makes you know, sort of unlock some things. So for example, if you've ever gone to Google, you know, way back in the day if you went back ten years in Google Google didn't do things like complete your search. Right. You start typing in a couple of words in fills. It a bunch of stuff for you. You know that didn't use to happen right now. Those things start to happen. We'll nobody says oh my gosh. My searches using a I m L, it's it's like people go that's a nice convenience. You know, the Jetsons thirty forty years ago used to talk about flying cars. Well, now, we have vehicles, you know, most modern vehicles. These days have a bunch of things built into them that do pretty interesting stuff that are helping you drive better. They let you know when you've gone outside the lanes, they'll do some things to sense the car in front of you and potentially stop. If you're not stopping in time. Well, that's essentially a variation. What machine learning I is. But they've just become a part of your everyday thing. And you look at them, and you go all those are great. They get kept me safe. They helped me avoid an accident. And so I think there are there are always going to be scary scenarios that people will apply to science if it if it goes radically wrong, every superhero movies ever is always based on that the hulk Spiderman or something, but I think what we're seeing more and more is that the the small advances the day to day advances that happen people tend to like the benefits that come. Those and the ones that are strange and weird and radical kind of get kicked out by the market rejected by the market. But the things that are that are useful, and helpful and become part of our day to day lives people. Appreciate that. It ends up unlocking some time that they can do with other things. So I I'm less fearful about it. I understand the concern and the fear and ensure you know, things can go wrong. But you know, I think the market has a way of sort of accepting the things that are useful for for the broad pieces of society. And and rejecting the ones that that seem to cause a lot of harm. Yeah. Yeah. I I agree. So we'll we'll exciting digital transformation projects. Have you been involved with run? You know, the the good thing about it is there there's so many of them, and it's like it's a little bit. Like, the I I have, you know, things happen, and they may seem small at the time, but they begin to sort of blossom saw give you a couple of simple examples, I grew up in in Detroit, which for your listeners, they may or may not know Detroit with sort of the the capital where automobiles were originally kind of become mass produced Ford and the assembly lines were so you know, I grew up in Detroit. And in the thing that you always focused on with automobiles was was horsepower. And and styling of the outside of the car and all those types of you know, it was very machine Centric. And nowadays when you think about automobiles all of the automakers are really focused on, you know, what's the inside experience. Like, can I can I deliver software to the vehicle. So that it gets new features. It doesn't just stop. When it rolls off the off the lot revolt, the vehicle it's now thinking about, you know, can I update? Maps in the car. Can I date, you know, better driving things? And so we've worked with some companies some of the automotive companies that are really focused on. How do we deliver software to those to those automobiles on a consistent basis? You know, how do we focus people's experience the kids in the back seat can get WI fi? Or you can personalize your music experience like that's a huge transformation for the automotive industry. Less about the the engine itself and more about the experience in the car. We work with, you know, work with a company who is one of the major hotel companies and one of their focuses was they said, you know, everybody comes through our front door. Everybody deals with the front desk. But everybody gets the exact same experience. And the reality is somebody coming in with kids on vacation is totally different than the person. Who's a business traveler a road warrior rolls in at eleven o'clock at night. And so they said, you know, the the. First thing that we could do the simplest thing. We could do is give them a key. Let them get the key without having to check in the front desk at eleven o'clock at night when they're tired. They just wanna show up. And so we help them with a digital key program. And is simple as that. Sounds you go allow that really starts to unlock a lot of things number one. It maybe helps the hotel itself rethink the front desk experience at rethinks that whole real estate that they have of the front desk. What else could we do to that? But number two, it personalizes the experience for that person. It could be I rolled in late at night. And I want to let them know. Hey, please put some water in my room or please put warm cookie in my room. I don't have to deal with the front desk person. If I'm tired if I'm grumpy so sometimes they're big things. Like the automotive example, other times there, what seemed like little small things, but they have sort of nice benefits because that road warrior, you go I'm gonna go back to that hotel. If I get a chance always going to pick that one because they make my. Check in experience better in. So you're always thinking about how what what can we do to make the customer experience better to make the loyalty, experienced better. And then what can we learn from that? And there's a bunch of technology that makes all that happen. But again, there's so many examples out there, you know, it's really sort of fascinating. Interesting about the front desk check in law, actually, because it's it's just it's so necessary to reinvent everything. Because people's people are different like, the people are so different. Like like, you say having a family is a business traveler completely different order, newlyweds soul. You know, Tunceli totally different. So what's what's the most exciting for you of all the projects that you've been involved with a while? You know, I think the thing that that that you love the most is when you when you get a chance to work with some companies, and and they start to realize like, okay. Number one. We conquered some new technology. That's always that's always fun. It gives them a lot of satisfaction that something they were. Maybe we're afraid of her didn't know anything about where they were excited about. But more importantly, it is it is pretty crazy when after a working with somebody for six months or year or something they go. This is this is going to totally change our business. This totally unlocks our ability to to do to get into new markets and new things, you know, like I treat a little bit. Like my kids like you don't you don't love one kid more than the other. And you don't want to say that one's with another. But it's amazing to me. What's really interesting is is to watch these companies kinda start to get creative. Right. It's for me. I work with a lot of technologist computer people. And you think well, they're only focused on computers in the blinky lights and kind of a low level stuff. And what happens is when you unlock and you start to talk to them, and you go, hey, you have the ability. You know, you've never really been the front of the business, but you have the ability to impact the future of the business. They just their creative juices get going and they get so excited about it. And I give you one more example, it's sort of against sort of in the travel space, but did not not coincidentally we work with one of the airports in Europe. And they said. This really big goal. They said we want to be the best airport in Europe. And you said, okay, that's great. And they said we wanna do that by twenty twenty one. So super short timeframe, and they really started thinking about, you know, everything about the experience of going to the airport everything from, you know, how do I get my tickets to make that simple for people? How do we notify them about things that are going on? Like is the weather changed other delays in traffic has the flight been delayed everything about they're trying to think about every bit of the experience. How can digitize it how do they put sign in the in the in the airport? So that you know, it's in multiple languages or they figure out the flow of traffic you start to think about all that. And you're like, this is this is really amazing. This is sort of watching businesses reinvent themselves somewhat in real time. And and the fact that they, you know, they don't longer have to think about just the resources that they have. But they think about how do I interact with weather allow going? Go to the Weather Channel. Oh, how do I interact with social media? Oh, there's there's a whole bunch of tweets about some traffic thing or there's tweets about some crazy incident. Like, how do we how do we collect all that? And then make better experiences that that part is is really fun because you're no longer talking about technology anymore. You're talking about really reshaping these companies businesses, and they wanna think about the next twenty years for themselves. That's that's very cool. Yeah. I j excitement I think seeing the people get excited about will that doing that of shed the excitement you'll ready excited because you involve with this. But for them discovering it, and then actually, you know, having that sort of helping hand must just be very rewarding. No doubt about that. So. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So on digital transformation do stall sort of just by like an old like say say I had a business that the, you know, and I came to you. And I said, hey, hey, Brian. Can you can you help me? Me I need to really transform digitally. I wanna I wanna become the most digitalized business in my space yet where where do you stole he stole the Nola Ditz? Then then a list opportunities from that will. So I think the reality is there's there's usually two places people start and one one I found works pretty well in one tends to leg. So usually the companies are the businesses that start with the problem. So they have an urgency in the business somewhere. Maybe it's a simple as hey business has been slow. We have to increase profitability. Okay. That's fine. That's typically kind of a normal thing in the business. But usually when there's there's something that's a little more critical in the business. Maybe they had a major outage, you know, that that impacted their business. They ended up on the front page of the newspaper, or you know, they lost something usually when they're. When there's a criticality that starts the process that tends to work itself better in the reason for that is number one urgency sort of focuses people, but number two, it it gives them a distinct area sort of work on and it really forces them to say, okay. How did we get ourselves in this situation, and you know, delete? We just wanna get ourselves back to sort of normalcy. Or we use this as an excuse to to really rethink what we did. And the reason I used that example, is you can apply this to sort of your regular life. You know, if if you wake up on January first, and you say, well, my my New Year's resolution is I like to lose ten pounds. Okay. You could do that any year of your life for any reason? And you just sort of said you wanted to that. But if you went to the doctor, and the doctor said, well, your cholesterol level is is over three hundred. Well, now, you've got a critical reason to go. I better lose those ten pounds. I'd better figure out the best way to change my diet. I better figure out because now I've got an urgency. And so that the urgency driven starting point tends to work better. It's it's easier to drive funding around those projects. It's easier to drive people being concerned about it the ones where you just start with an audit and say, hey, you know, all my other competitors say they're doing digital transformation. Those work, you know, their success that happens with them. They don't tend to change nearly as fast because there isn't an urgency. It's harder to get funding. People think you're just doing the day in day out were so I I always typically ask people. You know, what's the most critical thing happening right now? Or what's the thing that worries you the most as opposed to just saying, hey were changing for normal? Ten percent efficiency improvements. Pain is is a is a great motivator. Yeah. That's normal normal human function that we all understand. Yeah. Painted urgency. Yeah. Yeah. And then then from there, if you know, they they've said, well, we've got this massive problem. We've had a data-breach used as an example, we gotta Deitz of rage. And you know, we've we've ridicule serious problem here. How do we manage data on? How do we tighten this of gnome can get into all systems again? Right. Then you then you put together a plan, a NAN awesome. What else they they may need, and then and then sort of get with the other stuff us, and then and then progress to the mall nice to have items at the end, right? Yeah. I think there's really you have to think in terms of to sort of immediate paths. Right. The first one is going to be again. Think of these in parallel. The first one is. So you had this breach? You wanna go to to the executive level of the company and make sure they understand the criticality of it. But also make sure that they're going to get behind the things that the project needs to be successful. So are they going to help get it funded? Are they going to help make sure that they're providing air cover in terms of schedules and making sure that people realize how important this is to fix. There's there's a top down aspect of it. But typically, what ends up happening is the in parallel. You can go to the teams that are responsible for things. And be like, hey, you know, not just do, you know, why this happened or you know, what would? But in a lot of cases, they've already been researching what other technologies could be used to make this better what best practices? Did we wish we could have been using? But you know, we just didn't have time to do it. So in parallel, you're kind of going to from the bottom up and saying, what do you guys think would help make this this better because they live? With it every day. They typically know what would have been better. And it also allows them to say, hey, what restrictions were what changes can we make at the, you know, at the work level really finding that balance between sort of executive top down by in air cover support. And then encouragement and the knowledge from the base in terms of bottom up. You gotta find a way to work both of those in parallel. Yes, a plan falls out of it and so forth. But those two things are really really important. If you just do one versus the other you either get lots of ideas with no support or lots of expectations with no ability to execute. Yeah. I can see that because it can be really demotivation when someone at the top of business tons is doing this. Then they come to department and say doing this a new night. Well, I don't want that. We don't need that. Right. You don't understand it? Yeah. All you know, we know the that's the solution and picking the right solution. Son, Goltz vk, isn't it really? But I think I think the future is bright. I think that I think a lotta companies going through this right now. I mean, it was sort of looking at some stats the other, Diane. I think it was thoughts. Full Senate of businesses a well into digitization the the completely transforming using using Deitz. But I mean, I think they're sort of outside factors that coming in. You know, like GDP off, for example here. And then you guys have got the California thing that happened over that was that was pretty serious in terms of like, you know, government legislation not so stuff. But I think I think, you know, starting off with a kind of a hate to say, but like the old school methods like swat analysis and stuff like still have vantage diet unite. They do I think what you end up finding is that the the long-term planning processes that that a lot of companies used to do they have five. Year tenure forecast or road map or plan. Those are that model is really getting broken down. So you still you still want her stand the swot analysis, and the Forbach squadrons, and all those sort of things might learn business school, but you very much have to be able to say we're going to we're gonna do iterative planning. We're not doing sort of waterfall planning where we start and we've plan and plan and plan and plan, and then we get to the end it's eight to eighteen months later, and we're like, oh, wait all of our sumptious or no longer. Valid because the market changed. Right. You've gotta you've gotta have things in place that say are planning is going to be iterative. We're gonna collect feedback as we go along we're going to course. Correct. As we go along, you know, there's a there's a model out there people that's called oh DA or a it's like observe OD. It's called ODA loops. And they're things that the military us all the time because in military environments, you have a plan you have a battle plan. You know, where your enemy is. But. The enemy moves around. The environment's changed, the weather changes, the munitions change how much food you have changes in. So there are things that we're learning from other ecosystems that become applicable to business environments that are going to change more frequently. Yeah, I mean, I think coming up with you know, way you want to be having that big goal. You know, Wimbledon. Did they say what we want to be the best the best tennis tournament in the world? And right, I've done it. You know, and they all doing it. They digital transformation of the absolute core of what the day, even so far as you know, taking over the Brule costing and saying we'll waving controller this now. And if you weren't with us than you need to pay us, a what they did with the BBC, right? Yeah. They changed their supply chain. Exactly. And then they reverse the power. And I think there's a lot to be said for that. But you know, keeping ethics of the coal is is is so so important and not a like about winds. I mean, if they're shit with the BBC, they designed the white they release updates. So that it actually benefits the baby say instead of hunting that which I think goes to, you know, coal ethics of business and an alike. Now think that they're also many interesting exciting things going on right now. But we all need to remember, the if we if we lose the consumerization ri- than old of this technology and everything is gonna leave us like the Flintstones anyway. Oh, yeah. Ethics and working well with your partners in creating you know, like Stephen Covey says win win situations is always going to be good for your business. There's going to be some change along the way and you want to educate them. But yeah, if you're creating situations that are that are win wins that you that you wanna create bigger opportunities in exist today. Those are always great starting points for you know, working with people in trying to make things better. Yeah. We'll thanks broad even been ready generous with your time. And we got thirty seconds left. So it's the best place for people to find you on Lincoln d think yet Lincoln's greats Brian Graceland linked in at Graceland on Twitter online a lot and any of those places would love to talk to folks. And you know, my my direct messages are always open. So love to talk to people at the stuff. Cool. Very cool. Thank you so much and food to speak and say soon buddy, thank you, really. Appreciate the time. Thanks so much for listening. Please subscribe and wherever you prefer shale with your friends. And if you enjoy the show drops review on itunes, all wherever you listen.

Brian Graceland Weather Channel executive IBM Google New York London AI partner Wake Forest university Nathaniel Skoula CEO Bill
[Unedited] Isabel Wilkerson with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

1:50:03 hr | 4 months ago

[Unedited] Isabel Wilkerson with Krista Tippett

"Support for on being with Krista Tippett comes from the FETZER. Institute helping build the spiritual foundation for a loving world. FETZER envisions a world that embraces love as a guiding principle and animating force for our lives, a powerful love that helps us live in sacred relationship with ourselves, others and the natural world learn more by visiting FETZER DOT Org. I'm KRISTA Tippett up next. My unedited conversation with Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. Isabel Wilkerson there is as always a shorter produce version of this wherever you found this podcast. Thank you so much. That was beautiful so good evening. Welcome back to those of you who are returning. My name is Rik Jess and I'd like to call on my partners in organizing this festival, Evan Gurnee and Fred Bunsen who I don't know where it is right there. Good awesome so. Of the Center for Jewish Studies at UNC Ashville and I'm a member of the English Department and together with my dear friends and colleagues in co conspirators. We have organized. What is turned out to be a really extraordinary two day festival called faith in literature, a festival of contemporary. Spirit Evan. Evan is a colleague of mine at UNC A. Was Lucky enough to participate in the process of recruiting and Hiring Evan, and I've been really so honored to get to work from him and learn from him since he's arrived and Fred is the amazing author of soil and Sacrament as well. It's another book and many other pieces of writing Fred is the director of the food health and ecological wellbeing program at the Wake Forest University School of Divinity together right I got it right good, and so we partner together UNC Ashville and wake, Forest University School of divinity to really bring this fantastic event. You so thank you to both of our partners. I'd like welcome. Now. Chancellor Mary Grant to offer us a welcome, and she'll immediately followed by Fred with a few words of welcome from wake forest. Thank you rick and welcome everyone to UNC Ashville for this wonderful evening of conversation and enrichment I'm delighted to be able to open up our space here to do these things, and I'm even more so delighted to have such a great colleague like Rick. Chess held around of applause for quick. One of the wonderful things that I get to do in my role of of being chancellor of this university is work with tremendous faculty and staff on this campus. And so when I came to UNC Ashville about a year after being here, we did my official swearing in. It takes a while. They WANNA make sure it's GonNa work and so I asked Rick To. To. Say A few words on my behalf. And he one of the things that was common was to give a benediction or something like that, and he wrote an absolutely lovely piece that was entitled Not Benediction and and it was just beautiful, because it worked off of the words of the motto of our school, which is part of it synthesizing quite a bit. We look towards the mountain, and he just wrote this absolutely exquisite piece. Which I think describes what we do every day here. At a Liberal Arts University, we help our students to think deeply while looking up to the mountains. At the same time, it's a very special place and to have all of you here over the last few days has been a treat. It's been a delight. It's been an honor and a privilege. This is when we do our very best work and public higher education in Liberal Arts when we bring people together to think to engage to take that pause to reflect, and so it is indeed very special that we do this as a community. Community and we open this up to our neighbors to our friends to our community members in do it in partnership with our good friends, at WC, so it is just a great privilege to have all of you here and to spend this evening with wonderful office. We're going to do five flash readings. I'm very excited to see what that is about. When I walked in here this evening, I will admit I had a little bit of a panic because Rick said Mary just changed the program up a little bit. We're going to begin with music. That's when I panicked so. Alicia, I'm so glad it was you and not me because it turn. It turned out beautifully. But to be in this room this evening with such talented writers authors, Thinkers Im am just I can't wait to hear and be enriched nourished by that and to be in this room with both Krista. Tippett and Isabel Wilkerson to national humanity humanity medalists I think that is just really amazing and. I will have to do a little fan fan gushing here, Krista. Began every Sunday with you and because we are in this listening area with WC. Every Sunday morning at seven am I start my day with a cup of coffee and listening to Krista Tippett and I think it's because in your own words. You have talked about the power of Radio of having these intimate conversations in a way that makes it accessible, so thank you for doing that and for enriching all of our lives and for being. Being here in Isabel. It is just such a thrill in an honor to have you with us this evening, so thank you for being here. At UNC Ashville. Thank you for this special weekend a tremendous. Thank you to our partners at Wake Forest University into Rick Chess and Gurney. It is a pleasure and an honor, and I welcome you to UNC Ashville. Good evening. So. I'm up here officially to welcome you on behalf of the school divinity. University, but I'm kind of A. not, very institutional guy, and so by way of introduction and welcome I want to read one of. Maryland Robinson's excuse. Me Maryland Nelson's poems from last night. If you weren't here last night, you missed a magical evening with Marilyn Nelson and I'm sure we're in for another magical evening tonight. But I want to read a short clip it for one of her poems. Abu Yaacob said. We talked earlier about celebrating life in a disenchanted world. About how to enchant the world again. Part of Rian. chantant comes for being attentive to our senses. Living in this momentary world attuned to its everyday texture. How it looks smells sounds tastes and feels. But we must be attentive to and at the same time detached from sensory experience. Things have value in themselves, but they are signs of something else. Words and things are always leading us on always talking about something beyond themselves. Things things and words are not a cul-de-sac. They speak the language of signs the language of the absolute. And says I think about what we're doing here tonight. I think that's a great little process. Of caring for language of Rian chanting the world. And of remembering that our words can reach toward and sometimes briefly grasped. The absolute. And I think to do that. We need institutions that serve those ends. So I'm really grateful to our institutions that allow us to do this. To. Our hosts and to my institution, Wake Forest University School of Divinity. For allowing us to to sort of stretch, the boundaries of what these kinds of institutions normally do. And to gather together like we're doing tonight to thank you and welcome. Thank you Mary thank you Fred. So tonight we're going to hear six of our writers who will read from brief passages, a short poems of their own, and so I'm going to invite us all to open our ears and hearts to receive the work. If you're interested in their full BIOS, you can find them in your programs and so please writers come and join me up here at the podium. Reading, from soil and sacrament. I love making compost. The Bright Green Freshly Mown Ri-, vetch and clover. Steam arising from the pile on a cold morning. The smell of the forest floor in your hands. There's a secret joy a kind of charity to be founded this act. Transforming pile of grass and dirt. And old leaves into an offering of humic mystery. On those days I become a priest dispensing the elements to a microbial congregation. Lord take these humble gifts. Grass leaves soil, make them be for us the body and blood of the world holy vessels of self emptying glory. All things come of the Lord of the known. Have we given the? After months of heating and cooling. And turning the pile of well cooked humus is ready to spread onto the soil. Into that I plant speckled trout, Lettuce Curry, squash sugar snap peas. which feed the hungry people of our community? The People's hunger could be slackened, but it would never end, and all the while the secret life of soil continues the gift waiting to be found. Like a ceaseless hymn of praise, the cycle goes on with or without you, winter and summer, rain and drought seat, time and harvest. The process of creation beyond your control that has been in motion since the foundation of the world. It's a song of life that sings even when things around and within you, no longer seem certain. choirmaster. I require of you. The fat man, the fodder, the spastic drooling on her sleeve com chain smokers bring the death boy and his grandfather. Where's the man with the artificial voice box? I need him now have. rappers come call them. Get them here. Assemble the children and their cats and dogs, I want the list and this section on my right call. The nurses at the nursing homes to wheel the bedridden, and I need the coffers, and the burgers right here beside the shrill oh ladies. Run to the door one last time. Call people from the street. Any who come are fit to stay. The Hour is upon us. The in the back row have already begun. They're Ruckus. The yodelers and the Karaoke enthusiasts can hardly contain themselves. This is the Gloria poetry. If, you can sing, saying if you can only Croak Croak like you've never croaked before. From a book of Carols Carol of the infuriated our. The stab to the heart that is such music, the light beyond brightness that is such site for the sake of this season in the stories I will see my wars with God tonight. I will choose with open is the talking beasts, the white, the snowdrift Christmas rose the legends of wandering a better way, high hill in desert for what God knows. Someone turned the rose tree to across and the army's thunder independent central song such the ancient sorrow. They who stole the stories. Have the stories wrong? What saved the old ones in the tangled bland amid assorted enemies is what saves still see the white stag in the tangled, would the cross and the rose on the same Snow Hill? We are saved our infuriated our by cutting softened by beguiled by the newborn tempest, quick to arm motherly, murmuring to him child. My Child. A tutor twelve year olds for their Brian Bat mitzvahs, and this is about a twelve year old girl who had been based on her birthday, signed the portion about the woman accused of adultery. Who has to drink this disgusting potion? How To sail? Scrape at the curse off the parchment. Stir the broken letters into a jar of water. Make a woman drink it. Thus said Elohim But why the said Molly twelve years old. Now. I was the teacher. We sat there to black flames in a room of white fire. We were sailing on a wind that passed through the open window of a room next to the marketplace two thousand years ago. I cannot describe God in the same way that I cannot describe a picture that I am holding a millimeters from my is. The picture is made strange and unknowable, not because it is just inch, but because it is so close. or I cannot describe God in the same way that I can't describe the collections at the Metropolitan Museum of art. There is too much there for me to describe to come out of the museum and tell you about the one Blue Bowl I looked at for an hour does not tell you about the museum. That is the hush of negation, the interrupting reminder that you can't hazard a description of the museum because there is always so much more to be seen. GAW Is nearer and more than I can say. Of course gods refusal to be described, is in some essential ways, unlike the limits of description posed by the museum gallery or the picture I'm looking at you hard. There is excess in the museum. As there is excess in each one of us. Could I ever exhaustively describe you or myself? God, resist description because God is the one who is what God has, and the one in whom, and from whom all beings have what they are. which is not true of the museum? In spite of everything Roan Williams. We go on saying God. This dance between saying and UN. Saying is the way we know. It is God about whom we long to speak. Thank you so much Fred. Luke, David Alicia and Lauren. In God leaves moving novel the Beautiful Possible. Congregational Rabbi Saul carom explains to his wife, Rosalie one of the reasons. He reveres Leonard Bernstein. He explains to Rosalie. How a single large gesture! The sweep of Bernstein's hands at the perfect moment, his own arms that's solves. Arms raised to offer a blessing at the end of services. Can blaze a hole through the sky and change the direction of a life. With their work, Isabel Wilkerson and KRISTA. Tippett have blazed many holes and change the directions of many lives or changed the way many of us understand the lives of others with whom we share this American this human experience. Pulitzer Prize winner Isabel, Wilkerson is the author of the warmth of other Suns The New York Times Bestseller and winner of the Twenty Ten national book critics Circle Award for nonfiction. Brings to life one of the epic stories of the Twentieth Century through three unforgettable protagonists who made the decision of their lives during what came to be known as the great migration. The book made news around the world when President Obama chose warmth for summer, reading on Martha's Vineyard Twenty Eleven. And two thousand twelve. The New York Times magazine named warms to its list of all time. Best books of nonfiction. An early twenty thirteen the New York Times Book Review declared that warmth was published only two years ago, but it shows every indication of becoming a classic. Wilkerson won the Pulitzer Prize for her work as Chicago Bureau chief for The New York Times in Nineteen, ninety, four, making her the first black woman in the history of American journalism to win a Pulitzer, prize and the first African. American to win for individual reporting. The, judges of the Lynton History Prize conferred by Harvard. And Columbia universities which Wilkerson one for warmth described the work like this. Wilkerson has created a brilliant and innovative paradox, the intimate epic. At its smallest scale, this towering work rests on a trio of unforgettable biographies, lives as humble as they were heroic in different decades, and for different reasons they headed north and west along with millions of fellow travelers in powerful lyrical prose that combines the historians rigor with the novelists empathy, and I'd have to add with the poets Lyricism, Wilkerson book changes, our, understanding the great migration, and indeed of the modern united, states. And just a few weeks ago. Isabel Wilkerson was honored once again when she received the two thousand fifteen national humanities medal awarded by President Obama. KRISTA Tippett was also awarded to honored to receive the national humanities medal awarded by President Obama in two thousand thirteen. Much beloved for her inquisitive illuminating interviews with theologians, philosophers, physicists, writers, dancers, activists, environmentalists, spiritual leaders, and a wide variety of serious gifted men and women, whose work has a powerful impact on the World Krista Tippett is the author of three books speaking of Faith Einsteins God and our most recently published book, becoming wise an inquiry into the mystery, an art of living. Following this evening's conversation with Krista Tippett in Isabel Wilkerson books will be available. Thanks to Mala, props bookstore and cafe for purchase and signing the book table is in Carmichael. Hall right across the way from Humanities Lecture Hall and I should also note that almost all of the writers from the festival are still here, and they will also be happy to sign books, and they'd be very happy to sell a few books as well. As I said last night. This evening's conversation is being recorded for possible broadcast as a future episode of Krista Tippett Award Winning Program on being which we can listen to at seven am on Sunday morning. If we have the strength to get up, and if we don't have the strength to get off, we can listen to it anytime of the day day or night as a podcast on their incredible website. But we can listen to it here locally on air on WC Q. US sleaze. Join me now and giving the warmest welcome to the extraordinary Isabel Wilkerson and Krista Tippett. Once again, an overwhelming introduction and a beautiful beginning beautiful with those readings. As. Important as the fact that we've both won the national humanities medal today that we both loved Star Trek the next generation. And I think possibly. The Nobel Committee should consider. A posthumous award for gene roddenberry since they're expanding the definition of literature. Just lost my pen. I'm so happy to be back here tonight. And this is an extraordinary event. And I kind of got lost in this book once again this afternoon. The warmth of other suns. Which Isabel Wilkerson published in two thousand and ten. This is. It's an epic act of reporting and writing. Thank you so much. Over fifteen years. Yielding a majestic work of narrative nonfiction. It's the story of. The migration of nearly six million people from the south of the United States to the north, one of the biggest under reported stories of the Twentieth Century told through the Lens of three lives. But this is history that touched on every American in some way. And that is also route, and that is also revealed in these pages. But as large as this exodus was, and that Biblical word is APT. There was no Grapes of Wrath written to commemorate it, and that's really what what Isabel Wilkerson has done for all of us now in the twenty first century. It is a book about the human spirit. It is a book about truths. We forgot or didn't pass on. But that speak to and shine a light on the human and social crises that are newly visible at the heart of our life together in this country. It is also a book about the Eternal Human Drama of migration that continues in our time here and around the world. And you. Yourself are a child of this great migration. and I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about that, and also you know I always asked this question about the religious or spiritual background of someone's childhood and I think that as I've As my cumulative conversation has progress, I have a much more expansive imagination about what that is. The spiritual background of one's childhood. So I just wonder. If the fact that your child, if this migration flowed into what you now might imagine as the spiritual background of your childhood I do think that they're intertwined I. Mean I'm I'm a daughter of two people who uprooted themselves from the old country of the south. From different states and relocated and remade themselves in the new world, which was Washington DC for them. And In doing so that meant that. They were kind of leaving behind parts of themselves in order to take on this new persona I mean that's what my parents often do. They take on the identity of the new place that they hope will work out for them. No guarantees a leap of faith into the unknown. when it comes to the family background, it so happens that my mother's father was a Baptist Minister Oh. And my father was in Georgia and my father's. My father grew up in Virginia also in a Baptist Church. But his church was so formal and. Controlled and traditional that even the Episcopalians thought they should loosen up a little bit. And while they didn't, they didn't carry on. All of those formal rituals When they got to the north, they did pass on the traditions in the traditions of of You know going forth and forging ahead, no matter what. Of Dignity and grace and family, of striving always and also overcoming, you know always overcoming setbacks and rising up. in in spite of all that it also happens at my father was a pilot. He was at Tuskegee. Really And he actually was, he actually taught. Tuskegee airmen. He wasn't airman and he also taught. Did, flight training for them. And I think there's something about being the daughter of a pilot that makes you feel that you know metaphorically you could fly to. I like that. So. Let's just establish just quickly like the facts, the contours of this of this story. At the start of the Twentieth Century Ninety Percent Black Americans were living in the south. By the end of the great migration, which is. From Nineteen fifteen to nineteen seventy. Forty seven percent. We're living outside the south. Is it is this nearly six million people. How is that heart? It's probably hard to count. It is I mean the the general generally accepted number is about six million. That's an underestimate because a lot of people would not have been captured in the census to begin with right, people would have come up and then found that it didn't work for them or found that it was too difficult to make the adjustment and then returned. Yeah, and so there are there are estimates of you know as much as eight or nine million six million is what we can affirm. And this sentence from your book. By the time the great migration was over few Americans had not been touched by it. It's hard to imagine what our country will look like. If there hadn't been a great migration there, depending upon which aspect of our society WanNa think about certainly in popular meaning music music was reshaped by the great migration. MOTOWN exist as a result of it very gordy. His parents were from Georgia. He migrated to Detroit where once he got to be a grown man, he wanted to go into music and He decided that he didn't have the wherewithal. Go all over the country. They didn't have to because they're. They were in Detroit. All of these young people who had come up. With their parents have been born in the north, and they grew up hearing the music that hit sustain the ancestors, the despair tolls, and the Gospel Music and the Blues Music and they decided they wanted to do something different and he. Hit Daddy. Innovative Yeah tradition, so all of those people in a Diana Ross and and smokey Robinson all of those people are descended of the great migration. Jazz is a creation of the great. Migration Steve is the loneliest monk John Coltrane all of them were children in the great migration, and basically that was one of the great gifts to the country in the world that came out of this migration. When it comes to politics, red states and blue states part became that because once these people when they were in the south. From being able to vote prohibited from being able to vote, so migrated south, and then went north and west they were as immigrants are today brand new voters who had never been on the books anywhere else before, and the Democrats got to them in these places like Chicago and the Chicago election of nineteen forty was the was the African American vote meaning the newly arrived people who had never voted before who helped make the difference for a really difficult very very tight race Franklin Roosevelt was facing his third term and it came down at believed anonymity. Illinois was a swing state. They had the Democratic National Convention. There that's how tight it was, and he won by the margin error of the the number of African Americans who had arrived in the north during before the last election. That is amazing yeah. So the title of the book is the warmth of other suns. which comes from. some lines of Richard Wright another. Character product of this. Experience as he was about to leave Mississippi for Chicago in Nineteen Twenty seven and I'm just going to read it. He wrote I was leaving the south to fling myself into the unknown I was taking a part of the south to transplant in alien soil to see if it could grow differently if it could drink of new and cool rains, bend in strange wins respond to the warmth of other suns, and perhaps just perhaps to bloom. And one thing you wrote. I won't ask about us that your mother I. Mean You so many years writing this? And of course you don't I. Think Book is like it baby and you can't actually name until you can look at it, and so it's not. It was not a predestined that it would be called the warmth of other suns, but your mother who also again. Again as part of this story new from the first of his head to be the title, say something about well. The thing is that it was. It was an an unnamed orphaned child for the longest time that I was working on and yeah. I worked on it for so long that I. Think a lot of people in my life wondered if it would ever happen. Fifteen years. And interestingly enough to says an aside one of the people in the book George Starling, who was a deacon and his church. New York. He said. If you don't finish this book soon, I'm going to be proof reading from heaven. And and. He was right Oh he was. He was right, yeah! So for the longest time it didn't have title and people would be asking me. What's it called and as long as I couldn't give it a name? That's almost as if it didn't exist, and there were enough. People already wondered if it was going to happen anyway, and I happened to be Go with me. I was reading a certain point a book day mean. Mean that there is a tremendous amount of research that had to go into it, and I went back to the actually annotated version the original book by Richard Right. He hits his autobiography. It's called blackboard currently, but it originally was going to call be called American hunger. That was what he had hoped it to for it to be. It's an interesting story about what happened. when he submitted, he had difficulty getting. It accepted to buy the book of the Month Club, which was a big deal at the time, and they said they would accept it as long as he only included the first half which was about the south, and not the second half, and so we had to race to come up with a new ending, because there was I mean it was trapped in half, and he came up with these this distillation that can happen when you're under that kind of intense pressure the combination of time. Urgency creativity genius all coming together, and so he had this. He had this very hastily. Put together new ending, but in the current edition that we have which is everything the entire book. It's not there, so it was only in the annotated version that this as for the footnotes for people are interested, such as I was completely totally interesting. There there it was and I saw this passage and I say this passage was in that and his pal was in the annotated version. Of the of his autobiography, right? And you shared it with your mother. I. Did I mean she was? She was interesting, I mean she she actually this. This entire process of working on this book of delving into this. Painful part of our history was really difficult for them I mean most of the people in that generation did not talk, and I've since talked with met people from all over the world, who are the children or grandchildren of people who suffered? Right it's it's always that. It'd. Be Defies words, and they just don't talk I think there are a lot of reasons why they don't talk, but in any case. It was difficult to get my mother to talk. She was one of these people who was not talking and I at a certain point. This gave up and just thought that she wasn't and I just continue donald what I was doing. She wasn't in the original planning for how I wanted to do this book on some level, it wasn't necessary because she was never gonna be the protagonist. About three people following different paths as you see in a book, but you know wanted to. I wanted and would have enjoyed hearing her side of it, but she was not talking and so what I started to do with. I just began to read what I had to her. And once I began to read what I had to her. Something was activated. Something was triggered in her I. Don't know whether it was just simply memories i. do think that, but I also think there was a kind of almost a rival whereas we'll wait a minute I. actually know something about this. And she started to talk and Aso. I would share. I began to share more and more of it, and she had this way of recognizing instantly. What something should be There's something beautiful that you wrote. About this naming it, he said he wrote the question of the title. Set me on a course. I don't know if you wrote this or said this in another interview, but the question of the title set me on a course of trying to understand just what the sun means to us what it gives us, and what it takes to defy the gravitational pull of your own solar system and take off for another faraway. That is absolutely true I mean I. I actually once. I narrowed it down to that. Seminal poetry from Richard Wright the question was will. Looking back on it now at the seem so inevitable, but at the time I actually spent months and months and united take time and thinking. Oh, well, should it be just? Should it be? Should you need the entire phrase and then I started to think? what is the sign? And what does the sun mean to us? And I really did you know it became a powerful image of what does it take to leave not just your planet, but the force of will to leave your entire solar system for another one far away that you can't see. where? You don't know what will happen to you. And that was that was what animated my sense of connection with them. I began to channel. These people are such a deep connection to what they went through I, even at a certain point began. Going to vintage clothing shops and looking for things from the era I mean I. Really I just felt I was reading the newspapers anyway. I was thinking about what were they wearing? What were the what were the advertisements they were they were supposed to. You know. What kind of medicines were they thinking about? You know the various maids and things. I just got caught up in it. Yeah I think it's necessary for this kind of work. It's almost like method writing as opposed to method acting. Yeah right well. It's clear. I mean immersion doesn't really do justice to what it must have taken to write these. These stories that. That tell a larger story and I. Think even just what you said about this on its cosmic story almost. So maybe! Maybe before we keep going. Maybe, you should just briefly, and I think that briefly is going to be hard. Just introduced these central characters who you chose. I wrote you talked somewhere that you spend eighteen months of interviews more than twelve hundred people to find these three protagonists, and just interviewed seniors at quilting clubs. In Brooklyn senior centers in Chicago bus TRIPS TO LAS. Vegas with seniors from Los Angeles, scouted postal retired postal workers and bus drivers and AARP meetings on his outside of Chicago, and it goes on and on and on, and then you chose three people. They're just briefly. You know. Obviously we're not. Everybody hasn't read the book. And we could spend our whole time talking about these three people and we and I think we're mostly going to focus on really the larger story that that they have helped. You Tell but I do think we should just hear a little bit about who they were. Just introduced the three of them. If you. Don't mind I'd like to I. Say that there is a you might say spiritual. Instinctive decision that had to be made I, and that was whether I was going to go to the archives I to whether it's going to go the people. I chose to go to the people I because the archives would always be there, but the people wouldn't. and that was a huge leap of faith, because that meant I was going almost completely blindly, and this hoping met I, would be able to pull together a narrative without really having done an extensive amount of research ahead of time, but then they became my tutors. They became my guides through this era and all that they had endured. So what I ended up doing was I ended up doing. It's people you know twelve hundred people that I interviewed, but essentially that was a casting call I was listening people for the role of being protagonist in my book and I went to the places that you described, and then after hearing so many stories I. Mean there could be you know there. There are many people who are actually in the book. who were who would have been? The protagonists, but they they didn't make it in the final three. So but they do make an appearance, and what's beautiful is I actually will hear from some of their families, even the people who are just listed in the back. They just so appreciate it so I narrowed it down to about thirty. Any one of the thirty could have been the three, and then I settled on the three, because ultimately I was looking for. A combination of people whose experiences in the south and where they went to the north, and the journeys that they took the reasons motivations circumstances would complement one another, so the first to have left, who actually I should also say that I was looking for people who one who would have left in succeeding generations one. Succeeding decades, so it'd be one per decade, and that was to show rather than to tell you how long this went on, so the first to have left was someone who left in the thirties, and that's item may brandon glad knee, who was a sharecropper's wife and a lovely thing about her? That caught my attention. The very first time I met her was at. She confided to me that yes, she had been sharecropper's wife, and yes, they had to cotton, but that she was terrible at it. She was just off. It was such a lovely notion to me because we just assume that because they were assigned this role in the caste system that they were all suited to it that they you know, we can't I don't know whether we people assume that they liked it. I mean like liking. It was not an option anyway, but they were not even all good at it, and she was terrible at it, so that got my attention. Her family's story however was that one of their relatives was beaten to within an inch of his life. over a an accusation of a after the accident didn't commit and the proof that he had not committed that this theft. Came the next day when the thing they thought he had taken turned up those Turkeys, and they turned up the next day, but he nonetheless been beaten to within an inch of his life, and had to go. The men in the family had to go and retrieve him the planters, the planter and his associates came, and basically kidnapped him, and then beat him. Nothing was going to come of it. You didn't go to the sheriff or or anything, so his her husband decided that they needed to get out. They couldn't leave as easily as it might seem they had to. Carefully plan their strategy. Not Tell anyone they had to keep it quiet and then, and only then could they actually leave? She said was. He didn't tell people you were going until you were gone. Stat was one. The second one to leave was that was from Mississippi to Chicago? I shouldn't say the second went to leave. Was George Swanson starling who had been very very bright man, and hat, a few years of college in Florida is where he was from, but the money had run out for the family The father did not have anything further to send him he did not. African Americans are not permitted to go to the state schools. They can only have gone to the African American school wherever they could get in. And anyway once he was not able to stay in school. He had to return to the work of the people in the place where he was from which was citrus picking the work was dangerous It was the pay was was all but nothing and he. He recognized that they were being cheated. Cheated horribly for what they were doing. And he said about trying to organize them so that they could get a little bit more for the hard work that they were doing for the dangers of when people were these trees were forty feet high, and people would fall out of the trees and you know, break a limb, and nothing was done of it. for his involvement in encouraging people to stand up for themselves, the planters and their associates. Plotted to Lynch him, and he had to flee for his life, and he went to New York. Where he ultimately became a railroad man, and was hurled back into that world of back and forth, and was an eyewitness to the very migration that he'd been part of. The third person was Dr Robert Joseph pershing foster who, in the time, since the book has been out he was a character anyway, but a lot of people have very strong feelings about him. When they read the book he had been a surgeon in the army. but it turned out that when he returned, he'd been the Korean War. He when he returned from the war from his service. It turned out that he could not practice surgery in his own hometown of Monroe Louisiana, and so he set out on a course to to journey out to California where he hoped he'd be able to live out the life that he dreamt for himself He had a family by that time, and he but he as often as a case in migrations, the men will sometimes set out on their own and sort of scout out situation and he did that. But it was a very long. It was a very long drive as anyone would know but he ran into. heartbreaking. Heart heartbreaking rejection on the road out to California that made him question whether he was doing the right thing and question his place in the country. Overall, he couldn't stay places that over and over again he would. He was turned away from hotels, and he was turned away from hotels, time and time again and this was out. What decade with this? This was the nineteen fifties this one thousand nine hundred. And he like many, I mean like law. There's a there is a A an artifact that's getting a lot of attention now. A book which is referred to in the book and that was in some ways. A guidebook was sort of a triple a guidebook mapquest. All of this combined into one. And It was something that was necessary for African Americans as they were making their way through the country traveling without being able to. Find places to sleep no guarantee of being able to get gas for your car, no guarantees of wear, or if he be able to eat, and so these were all of the the hazards that they faced and this this green book was created in Nineteen. Thirty six by this postal worker in New York Victor Green. Who Beautifully as he printed, his first copy said that he looked forward to the day when it wouldn't be necessary. So in our you have. I think just. The notion of refugees and migrants people you've said that the the language of political silent, and is absolutely apt here for. For what people were undertaking? And it's just not. As, much as we know a lot of these stories and a lot of the things that were wrong. That feels like a new recognition. It does I think that because it happened within the borders of our own country, we don't think about it as first of all. It was kind of immigration although these were the, this is the only group of Americans who had to act like immigrants in order to be recognized as citizens. they were forced to to seek political asylum within the borders of their own country because they're there. They were living in a caste system in the south, did not recognize their citizenship and some of them travel farther than than current day. Immigrants Might, but that was really not the point. The point was that the country actually was kind of two countries in one, and that's what they had to do and I often say that the that this book that they've you know. The book is viewed as being a book about the great migration and overtime. As you know as I've talked about it over the years I've come to realize that it's not about migration. The great migration is not. Not about migration and really probably know, migration is about migration. It's about freedom, and how far people are willing to go to achieve it. This is the means that they feel. They must take in order to find freedom wherever they can find it, and and for that reason I think that the focus on migration where where whether it's. We're speaking about the great migration of this era that I'm speaking of our current day. I think that we. Often misjudges. Do not understand what's happening because we're not recognizing really what they're wanting their motivations and also seeing ourselves in them. Yeah and. You know again. I mean you've pointed out. Things like. Driving past a white person or the there were black bibles and white bibles and. That it was illegal to play checkers with a white person and then on the other. End of the spectrum, the one thousand nine hundred gubernatorial candidate Mississippi, who declared if it is necessary, every Negro and the Negro on the state will be lynched. So this is these are the conditions under which people were living, but in the book and I think there's something. This book is such A. It embodies this paradox. That people that that writers know that storytellers know that radio actually knows that the more particular. You can get with your particular your story. The more universally, it can be received in the. That that others can join their life and their imagination with what you have to share. And so some of the moments. There were these moments for me in the book. that. We're just so human, right? There were so relatable that made all of these other horrors. Come home, right, and so one of them for me was. Always name's. Robert Joseph pershing foster because he. Changed the! Name he was using right so but Dr Foster. Who went onto become this brilliant doctor. So when he's a child. fire breaks out in the basement of his school. And the city just said that they weren't gonNA. Replace desks and the teaching supplies, and this is a kid with a beautiful mind. Who wants to learn and? At the time, a local woman says well know we shouldn't do that. Because if those negroes become doctors and merchants or by their own farms. What shall we do for servants? That that this intelligent boy is growing up with that and another just another moment with George Swanson Sterling was. You asked him. what he hoped for in leaving and he said. I was hoping I would be able to live as a man and express myself in a manly way getting chills without the fear of getting lynched at night. and. Even the way it comes to cross I, mean he? He didn't say it doesn't sound like you. said it with a lot of bitterness or drama, it was just a matter of fact, not not even that much emotion because it was these were the facts of their lives and. At that time when they were growing up in this time, period was a very long time. It was the end of reconstruction until the nineteen seventies. Encompassed someone who was born at the you know in the eighteen eighties and passed away in the sixties known nothing other than this, and so these were the facts of their lives, and he didn't. He was not emotionally wasn't bitter. It was just a matter of fact statement of what it was. He was up against and why he felt he had no choice but to go. He I. I ran into a lot of people said they didn't think they would've. They would've lived if they had stayed. There's actually a tremendous amount of fear that a lot of parents in the south had for their children if they were. They were extroverted and opinionated children if they were spirited and. Know there was a need to rein that in I mean in other words childhood itself had to be controlled and repressed, because it could mean their very lives, and so he grew up under that and his father said well. If this is if you're going to continue doing this work, things that are doing its best to go. And one of the one of things that happen in this great migration. Is that It's spread people all over this country. You mean people places that they went. There had not been a significant African American population right when you look at. The African American population of all of the cities in the north, Midwest and West are result of this. We're seeing the manifestation of that Seattle or or Oakland or Detroit wasn't. Wasn't none of those places where they were at the time and a lot of them are are filled by people who felt they had no choice that they would not have lived at. They hadn't gone now I'm KRISTA. Tippett and this is on being today and with the writer start again. Sorry never here we start again. I'm Krista Tippett now no laughing. I'm KRISTA Tippett. I'm KRISTA. Tippett and this is on being today, and with the writer Elizabeth Wilkerson at the faith in Literature Festival at University in the faith in Literature Festival at the University of North Carolina Asheville. What did I say Isabelle? Oh okay boy this last days. It's really not usually this bad. Why did I say Elizabeth all right? It's a derivative, so it's actually okay Isabelle, I loved her name is. I was thought if I had a third child. It would never expect thank you. I'm KRISTA Tippett. I'm Krista Tippett, and this is on being today with the writer Isabel Wilkerson at the faith and literature. Festival at the University of North. Carolina Ashville. So something else. Something that was disturbing to me and I. don't even feel like. I feel like it was just again so matter of fact, but so I I lived in divided Europe in the cold war-era and I I have. I lived in a place where people were stopped from leaving the place that you know we're. Where the border was meant to keep people out in rather than out, which is so bizarre. and. That actually was happening now, too, but what? What I also found really disturbing about the dynamic. Is that on the one hand? African Americans were being lured by the north as cheap labor. It's it's kind of. It's you know so? That is a reverse of the dynamic. We're seeing for example in Europe now. They were they were desired as cheap labor. And the south for the same reasons was. We're keeping people in. That's shocking to me. I don't know I shouldn't be shocked, but just. Well. I think that A lot of this actually is not it's. It's out there, but it's not commonly known and one of the things that I hear most often when I go out talking about this book or people right to me constantly, and it's the same phrase over, and over again I had no idea I hear it over and over again from people who actually were alive at the time that some of these things were going on part of it as You know as we were discussing before. Is that a lot of people just didn't talk about it? If you think about it on both sides of this caste system or this divide, there was not much incentive for anyone to talk about it i. mean on the one side you know people don't WanNa. Really think about the awful things going on around them, and those who were suffering from it and and had escaped the burden their children with. It was like post stress. Trauma these are people who were deeply profoundly traumatized, and it passes on through the generations, which is how it reverberates to our current day. UNADDRESSED. Stress and trauma can evidence itself in so many different ways, and so that's one of the reasons why people might not have known about these things I mean, I, myself, I mean of course, too. Because I didn't know, I was doing the research and there were there were so many things that I was discovering I was overwhelmed with the things that I was discovering I had no idea I mean how could any of us have known but to get to your point though The the elaborate mechanisms to maintain the this divide almost it borders almost on. If you if it weren't so deadly and and sad, it would be almost absurd because the what happened with the trains when they reached a border space, and the trains had to, they were going into free territory of Illinois after crossing over You know from the neighboring. Neighboring state from Kentucky. Depending upon what part of Illinois there in and they have to actually uncouple the the trains because the new place doesn't have the segregation, but the old place had the segregation, so the segregated trains had to be pushed to the Samurai. This is a version of crossing between East Germany and West Germany when Iron Curtain divided Europe. I make reference to that that image because they were crossing over into into another land with different laws, different different expectations and the border areas where a place of great uncertainty I. I found myself. saddened for them that when they ran places where they putatively were free, they would be when they crossed over. They were afraid to move into the integrated cars. They stayed where they were. They were going from the south to the north, and they've crossed over the border into Illinois into Ohio. They were they were afraid to move they. They didn't want to draw attention to themselves. It had been so. So ingrained in them the restrictions that they wouldn't even take the chance, and so it takes time to overcome the unconscious absorption of the caste system into which they had been raised and born, and it's not like they were being welcomed with open arms when they landed in northern cities now many of them. Sadly, the great is that they were brought in strikebreakers, by the union by the companies who were trying to break the unions, and and so that meant that one of the great tragedies of the twentieth century is that there were all these people arriving in these big cities the North Industrial Cities Detroit Chicago Cleveland Buffalo all of these places, and there were people coming in from parts of Europe Eastern and Southern Europe for example and there were people coming from the South African Americans all wanting the same thing. They were the same people from small towns and the countryside. They left all that they knew. Kinfolk mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers, and taking their chances greatly faith into the unknown into these harsh and anonymous cities and there they are pitted one against the other one group is permitted to join the Union to work in these jobs. They were stratification of the kind of jobs that people could do in the North African Americans arrive with with. Know in some ways with saddled with a visible. Visible stamp of cast, and and there were places in Milwaukee, for example that said No african-american many places actually said African Americans would not be hired, but they could actually they would stop them as they were walking up to the factory gate because it was visible. That, they were African, American, and so as it turned out many of the recruiters representing. You might say the north they wanted. The Labor. Of African Americans from the south, but didn't want the people. How do you do that? Right right. And again. To think of. To think of this in terms of other refugee and crises and immigration immigrants that we think of I, mean the story of so we don't you know again. We don't think of these as people who are crossing borders of language and citizenship, but the story of Jesse Owens. Right that that's not the name he was born with right tell. Language could be an issue, right? What was his name, his name was James Cleveland Owens. He was from his family was from Alabama. They were in Alabama large family they were. Frightened for him, because he was small, boned and frail, and the youngest of the of the family, and they were worried for what's GonNa? Happen Him because share cropping is tough. Tough backbreaking, you know sunup to sundown job work. And they were not being paid for. They were working for the right to live on the land that they were farming, so there was not really money coming in, and they were worried for him where they happen to be was they were in a part of Alabama where everyone around them was whispering, African Americans were whispering about this place in the north. Call Cleveland. And this his parents chose to name him Cleveland. James. Cleveland Owens The family was divided as to whether they should go, but the mother prevailed and they went they once they arrived in the north and he went to his first class. The teacher asks him his name and he says J. C. which is. What they call them short for. Cleveland and the teacher speaking differently in the north than they spoke in the south, which is what I would say that maybe language actually was a barrier. didn't understand him and just call started calling Jesse, he went home and told his parents what happened in school that day they started calling him Jesse to. What we have! Their attitude was. That must be what they do when you go north renamed your children. So I wanted to read a little bit of Another moment for me and this brings us to our moment and moment in the book. That was just heartbreaking was very early on. And it's when you first met item May in nineteen, ninety six in Chicago. From the open door in the vestibule I see her. She is sitting in a in a cotton house dress on a baby. Blue Plastic covered easy chair by the window. She is looking through a parting of curtains at the St Circus below. There, they are all scuffling beneath her urban drug dealers, falling down sweatpants, bullying at their feet now bent over the driver's side window of a late model sedan from the suburbs, fourth graders, doing lookout for men who could be their fathers, young girls with their stomachs swelling already. Middle aged men living out of their pontiacs gangsters. Who might not make it to the weekend? She lives on the second floor of a three flat on the south side of Chicago I want to say before say this. She is a remarkable joyful person. But this is a heartbreaking moment. To know that this is. This is what it became for her in Chicago the Promised Land. It's a reflection of the structures that they confronted upon arrival. It's all the things that you know that sociology and political science and the history. Come together and show us. That they arrived. Invited but not welcome. They arrived. Making the least for the hardest work, they arrived Consigned to neighborhoods. That in which that were declining, that had been declining from the moment. They arrived me I'm talking about the beginning of the migration, the subdivision to subdivided Cold water flats that they were living in the originating part of of where these people are living upon arrival. And they were making the least amount of money paying the highest rent because there was no competition there, this was not an open market they were not African. Americans were not permitted in any of these cities to live anywhere that they wanted or anywhere that their money would take them making the least paying the most for their for wherever they were living, and he's decrepit places. They were Little in the way of upward mobility, many of them were attacked because they were brought in strikebreakers means. Is Everything going against them, but you can imagine. And then what set in place the reaction to the arrival of these people? Were then efforts to further isolate them and restrict them to these hemmed in roped off places in every city that they went to all of us who've been to? North, though exactly where the arriving they arriving district arriving neighborhood of people, the great migration would be because that's where it's the oldest broken down neighborhood in all these cities usually not well positioned by the railroad tracks, or near the that you know it's. It's almost like a refugee camps of now because you go refugee camps around the world now and you hear the word refugee camp and you'd think it's tense, but in fact where you have refugee camps for generations of people have been living. It looks like. That's exactly it. I mean that's that's such incredible. observation that you're making that is these were refugee camps created in our American cities, and as they sought to expand our if they manage to save whatever they could from these jobs and a lot of them, this new research about the great migrations coming out, showing that they actually worked multiple jobs, so that actually the people who arrived. There's a lot of fascinating sociology that came out of this that they were. Because, they had known nothing but work. That is all that they had known in the south. I mean that was, and they were not being paid for their hard work. The opportunity to get paid for your hard work meant that they were more likely to work. Even harder as immigrants often do working multiple jobs often, and that meant that they actually were making more money, not a lot in general terms, but they were making more money than the African Americans who had preceded them had already who had grown in you're to and who had grown weary of the fight, so they had come in fresh blood wanting. Immigrants Sphere has high, and so they actually were making more money, but it wasn't going as far because there were so many coming in flooding these neighborhoods that were actually being hemmed in and and pressed against because they were not able to spread out that they were paying more because it was, it was It was a seller's market, and that was the world that they had entered. They were living in the vice districts. I mean all of the things that make for. Every possible disadvantage that you can have going in, that's what they were facing. And so the city's what all these cities ended up. Doing was created further barriers. They created restrictive covenants which meant. For effort for white for white residents or white homeowners. Even if they wanted to sell to African Americans they were restricted as to being able to sell, because there was this covenant on the deed that said it could not be sold to African Americans. Other groups might have been included as well but African Americans would surely have been on there. There were there were then also read, there was redlining. That meant that African Americans they if they sought to buy a home. The existence of African Americans in the neighborhood meant that the place was that that neighborhood was disqualified from fha loans for the people who were seeking go that meant your existence by definition, prohibited you from getting a standard mortgage, and so they would then get mortgages on the second market and secondary market, which meant that they were paying exorbitant rates. This is sounding very much like. Two thousand six in two, thousand, seven for us now, and so this is all setting in motion, all of these forces that were making it even more difficult for people to succeed in these big places, the referred the receiving stations, the refuge, the cities of refuge for the people of a great migration. So? Between the time, you first published a book in two thousand and ten and today. These have been years in which. We have been forced to confront the fact that. With all the laws that were passed with the progress that was made, there's so much. So much unfinished business. And in fact that all the progress had. Wasn't there. and I wonder how you you watch. What has risen to the surface I mean I think the good news is that we see this. It's not unforeseeable anymore. It's a moment of reckoning. and I wonder how. Having traced this history seeing this, you know being able to see the origins of. Some of these dynamics that we're facing now again. How you how you have understood what is happening now in ways that perhaps you wouldn't have you done this research and delved into this. Story. Well. It's it's kind of reminded me that you know. Our country is like a really old house. I leveled houses. I've always lived in houses, but old houses need a lot of work, and the work is never done, and just when you think you finish one renovation, it's time to do something else. Something else has gone wrong. And that's what our country is like and I feel as if when you have an old house and there's been. You know some some you know Crisis. Storm. Of some kind. And you have to check your house and go into that basement and you may not want to go into that basement. But if you, you really don't go into that basement, it's at your own peril. And I think that. Whatever you were ignoring. Is Not going to go away. Whatever your ignoring is only going to get worse. Whatever you're ignoring will be there to be reckoned with until you reckon with it. And I. think that that's why we're called upon to to do where we are right now. I'm also reminded. There's a tremendous amount of new and exciting research on the sort of this is foundational in the DNA of of our country. Which is what? This book is about to. It's about the caste system, the artificial hierarchy that was put in place before a great great great grand parents. were alive. It's something that we've inherited. It's not something that we wanted. If you're on the the beneficiary end of it, you didn't ask to be on the beneficiary end of it certainly, if you're on the the targeting targeted end of it, you certainly didn't ask to be on that, but this is where we are and the new exciting. Exciting research is showing that you know these these are unconscious biases that exist in the DNA of our country. We are have all been exposed to it. It's really is if you know something that you know to be exposed to. The culture means to be exposed to these unconscious biases, and I think that it's calling upon us to to reckon with this finally. the fact that the disturbing thing about where we happen to be right now, is that yes, these things are unsuitable. But that does not mean that actions being taken I. Mean we see that? So many of these cases are really not. They're not being prosecuted. I. Mean Some of the answers are not actually. I don't know if it's a better thing or not i. mean now that we have the evidence for this incontrovertible I mean. How can you not see this and each case that does not get acted upon I think deepens our own. collective complicity in the send just injustice I. also think that you know we have to recognize how we are all being victimized, too by these images of of death. You know African Americans you know these are these are deaths that we're actually seeing human beings American citizen by arm citizens who are dying before our very eyes, and what is the effect that that's having on all of us collectively? Is that inuring says that numbing us to the to. Black death is numbing US an enduring us to the maybe helping us to to feel that actually it's not this is acceptable as it making it acceptable on some level because you see something enough times it normalize it and I would like to think that this would never be viewed as normal. I mean here's a striking. Terrible statistic that you that you know that there was a lynching every four days in the early decades of the twentieth century. And it's been estimated that an African American is now killed by police every two to three days. I think. I also find great hope in the science of implicit bias, this also just US understanding our brains, and if you want to see it in the largest possible perspective, it's this possibility we have in the twenty first century of wholeness of really understanding ourselves and our wholeness. I think. I've never thought of. It is in terms of people getting inured to black death, but I do think something that happens. Is that these images are. People feel so paralyzed by them. Right so it's so terrible. It's so inexplicable. And you have no idea how you could make a difference. I I would agree with you I. Actually find this new researchers is why described it as exciting? it parallel work to the idea. The use of the term caste system which is a term that anthropologists us and the twenties and thirties when they were talking about the south and in particular, but I think it definitely expands also to the rest of the country because it is still the south is is is a. Part of the United States. So this is our collective inheritance. I think that what's freeing about it. It's liberating because it takes it away from the personal. This is not personal, right. It doesn't mean that there aren't things at each. And every one of us can do our personal lives to in how we comport ourselves, and how we reach out to others, and how we treat those around us and other actions that we might choose to take politically or otherwise, but it, but it also means that it's it frees us from the twin barriers to understanding guilt and shame near right right because it's not personal and a caste system is a structure that we. We have inherited that we did not create that we don't. There's no point in pointing fingers about it, but it's something that we recognizing it is the first step toward toward dismantling it and recognizing unconscious bias is the first step to to finding ways to inoculate ourselves from it, and to recognize that it's not personal it's it has nothing to do with being a good person or a bad person. It means that you've been. We've all been exposed to the same messaging. And As much as You know the dynamics here abroad. There's a lot to be. There's a lot that is Is a fearful backlash kind of fearful and frightening resistance to this knowledge. That also comes from those primitive parts of our brain. But I. Feel like the success of this book. And books like Michelle. Alexander's the new Jim Crow, and coats to she uses a term cast, too. Yeah about the same year we didn't neither of. US knew about the right right determined to use our independent research separate. Came to the conclusion that that was the appropriate and precise term to describe. The the way that we live in the world in which we live. And the way people are engaging with this book this tallying of a truth and work and Tana. Hussy coats this book. I feel I I want to take that seriously. Because there there is, it does suggest. An opening to knowing this and to grappling with this and I mean you said to me, what would you show? Everybody your book? This is it. Miles on, it looks like a Bible. And and you said to me now that really all you do I, mean you? You're Pulitzer. Prize winning reporter, but all you do now travel around. Accepting invitations to talk about this in rooms like this, which makes me feel really hopeful I mean, and it's kind of a narrative of. Another kind of energy that's present in this moment that we don't. We don't tell ourselves that story of right now. But I don't know. Am I reading that into it? What's what what has been your experience of being out there with this material? I, will you know it's? It's actually been all over the world and I I. I think that The store, the the the universal human story of these people, the you know the the fact that people can identify with these people. Allows Entree to see some really difficult aspects of our history, so it can be read on multiple frequencies. And I think that the frequency at which people approach it works for them at that time, and then people will tell me they read it again, and then they see it in another way, and that's part of it. But the response has been just as he said it's so encouraging. I actually was in in Singapore Talk about this book and I was speaking to a group of high school students who can be sometimes challenging and I I usually like to give them. Examples of people who they can recognize thrown were part of the great migration, and but I didn't know how well that would play there and. So I was. I was giving these clues and I said. This is an individual who was was guitarist, and his his his mother was from Virginia, and she migrated out to Seattle and the hands shot up in the back. The student thought Jimi Hendrix and I was just thinking my goodness. It has just really truly Migra Emmy. The culture has migrated and appreciation for how this has unfolded, and the impact that it's had has resonance around the world. Michelle Obama is also another. Good it just you know this person in the center of our culture. Is just a great story of the product of this product I mean there's so many people tony. Morrison August Wilson's. They'll watch. Washington I mean they're so so many people are that you could you could. That's one way of recognizing the impact that it had because ultimately what this migration was, and I think people are are identifying it is that it was it was really the it was an uncorking. It was an unleashing of this pent up creativity and and genius in many cases. Of People miscast in his caste system. You know you think about those those cotton fields and those rice plantations and those tobacco field, and and on all of those cotton, fields and tobacco, plantations and rice plantations were opera, singers, and jazz, musicians, and poets, and and professors, defense attorneys doctors I mean that's a this is the manifestation of the desire to be free, and what was lost to the country. Because for centuries you know for two hundred and forty six years of enslavement and I I have to remind people twelve generations of enslavement. Twelve generations of enslave. How many greats do you add to grandparent to get that back to sixteen nineteen until eighteen sixty three? And that gives you a sense of how long. All of these people were MS cast into an artificial hierarchy as to what they were permitted to do. you know or risk death if they did not do that and you know so that that I think that people are more open to hearing that now and one one. Know fact about this whole idea of where we are right now you know to sort of cosmetically I, think in terms of the where we are as a country. Is that when it comes to this history is that? Enslavement and then Jim crow lasted for so long that enslavement alone we have not no not no labor this way. Adult alive today will live to see a time when enslavement, the time of enslavement was equal to the time of freedom. No because it lasted for two hundred and forty six years. It's been about one hundred and fifty or so years since. You know since enslavement ended since the thirteenth amendment and you know we're looking at another ninety five years from that time right, and so that shows you that this history is long, and history is deep. You know when you go to. Other countries go and other parts of the world in Europe or in the other places, and the history goes so far back and in the people in Portugal can still remember that you know well. There was that. There was a catastrophe and you know the fifteenth century haven't gotten over that yet Iraq You know think about how this is really not that long ago in a sense of generations in the sense of of even. Sort of I would view it almost cellular memory in the bones of people, and I feel as if this is not something that should be dismissed. I was actually I actually was also. Encouraged by the fact that after the the Charleston Mother Emmanuel, shootings for the Commonwealth of Virginia, rose to the occasion and the Richmond. Times dispatch said. You know the the editorial board said that there should be a truth and Reconciliation Commission and that it should come from. It's a come from Virginia, which was the capital of the confederacy and it. The the solutions lie in the South I believe I really believe that the solutions lie in the south. I wanted to read. Something that. was, a blog a minister in rural new, England if you do this. It's called. It's called faith in the ordinary. And so I think it's a man, but it could be a female minister in New Hampshire Third, third-widest state in the US the with the white population of ninety six percent. And a state that borders numbers, one and two main at ninety six point nine percent Vermont at Ninety six point seven percent. We have to work harder to make these connections. If you haven't read it, try and find. A book called the warmth of other suns by Isabel Wilkerson. It is hands down the best work of nonfiction. I've ever read. It tells the story of how the Jim Crow laws, and their accompanying attitudes shaped the lives of three black Americans who came North during the twentieth century when I was reading it I, kept saying over and over again I had no idea I had no idea. And then he says we may be clueless and awkward the subject of race, but we know what the Gospel demands that we keep working at being better neighbors. I think about that so much these days about this work of knowing our neighbors who are strangers and that that in fact is the. Is the immediate work that in fact is not. It's not evident how we do it because we're so segregated in so many ways in our communities but it's possible. And I I. Wonder People must ask you this question I. Wonder How. If. There's advice you give or thoughts you. That's terrible or thoughts. You have about about this work of coming to know our neighbors who are strangers of being neighbors just that. Well I think I wanNA to start to answer the question with a fundamental sad recognition with these police, shootings, and then get the answer. And that is that there's so many things disturbing about them and the videos are showing them, but I think that you know people can disagree on. What the officer was thinking of what the what the circumstances of his arrival what he saw what he thought, and he's a split-second decisions There are a lot of things going on. And often they there's a there's a refrain that comes across it, says I feared for my life I didn't know didn't know it in no feared for my life. But I think the human question. In, that is disturbing and hard to reckon with is what is happening in these cases. After the person is down. And I think that. All of us have to think about what is it? What is it that we're hearing? And what is it that we're seeing? Why is it that basic human response to a person in distress? Why is it that first aid cannot be ministered to people once they are bleeding on the ground? Where is the threat once they are already near death? Why can't they even if they're not? Equipped and I would assume that an office of the peace would be a quick, but I'm I'm not an expert in this, but even the basic human response to take the hand of someone whose life is slipping away from them and to comfort them. That is the essential missing piece which is empathy. Empathy and recognition in the common humanity of another person, and as I, said we can disagree on this the circumstances and the details and the so-called facts of of the situation, but after the person has down, whereas the humanity I think calls upon all of us to recognize I think the need for radical empathy, and I think that empathy is a word that that gets used a lot, but I would challenge people to think about what does that really mean and for the is not pity. Or sympathy in which you are looked, you know MP Pity of you're looking down on someone and feeling. Sorry for them. Simply you may be looking across at someone and feeling bad for them empathy, getting means getting inside of them, and understanding their reality and looking at their situation, and saying not. What would I do if I were in their position? But what are they doing? Why are they doing what they're doing? From the perspective of what they have endured. And that is an additional step at their multiple steps that a person has to take to really be open to that. And all. In all of. These discussions about what's going on now We're so very divided and we're focused. There's such a focus on other and other can mean all kinds of things, and so people will often say. Why is it that those people do that thing? Why is it that those people are doing this over here? And in my view? There's only one answer to that question. The only answer to that question is why do human beings do what they do when they are in that situation, it's not the people those people it's what to human beings do, and it calls for radical empathy in order to put ourselves inside the experiences of another, and to allow ourselves the pain. Allow ourselves heartbreak allow ourselves the sense of hopelessness whatever it may be. That they're experiencing, and it's a difficult thing to do, but it's necessary. I think you know. I think one of the reasons that we're in the situation that we're in our countries because you know the laws. Have laws have been changed you know. Lots of laws were passed actually in the eighteen sixties. Right and they had to be. Revisited in the nineteen sixties and why is that? Partly I think it's an indication that the laws are necessary, but not sufficient and that we recognize we recognize that the laws can be changed if the hearts have not changed. And so I view myself as on kind of a mission. To to change the country, the world, one heart, chuck time, and it's a tough tough tough thing to do. I mean I. Feel as if is the last frontier, and because we have tried so many other things and the laws. We've passed that we thought were written and grant we see can be erased and are in peril. If. If as a collective, we not recognize why I also believe it in the time of working on this book. I it's it's a multidisciplinary their sociology psychology economics. All of these things are in there, but I think the foundation of all of those of all of those disciplines comes down to the history. When you go to the doctor. Before you can even see the doctor The very first thing they do. Give you all of these pages to fill out. And they before the doctor will even see you. He wants to know your history. He doesn't WANNA. Know just your history gene wants to know your mother's history. He wants to know your father's history right. They may go back to your grandmother and your grandfather on both sides, and that's before he will even see you. You cannot diagnose a problem until until you know the history of the problem that you're trying to resolve. And I think that that is why the history is so necessary to getting us through this because we keep repeating history over and over again right because we haven't we first of all people don't know it, and they don't know it in order to address it and they feel it's going to be too painful. I think you know you were asking about this book. And how it's moved around in the world, I think this book is proof or the response to. It is proved that it's not as hard as it has to as you might, it will be. That actually you can find it. Not just enlightening but healing. But I think part of the reason. You made it not as hard as you opened up the that it's not as hard as it has to be. A city you humanize the history. Right and I think that this minister is onto something when they say we need to see our neighbors. Because, actually, we can't I mean there's so much you said just said so much there, but scientists actually helping us in. Changing your heart is a synonym for overcoming on unconscious by straight I mean. There's things that are these things that it's becoming more conscious about what's going on inside us. And then working with that. I think I just lost my train of thought. But. The. Week, Oh, another thing we're learning is that. Empathy is and this is a problem with journalism. Frankly empathy is not triggered by a statistic now. It's triggered by not triggered and we should talk about this before we finish by now. Millions of people moving across Europe absolutely. In search of survival and freedom, and just the ability to create a life for their children. We, cannot we. We cannot take that in, but we can take in every once in a while. The face of one child and that. Enables us to take in the. Enormity of the tragedy I mean I, feel like everything just set also. Explains how and this is something where I feel like? If we could frame it this way we could. Reckon with this better. This is not this moment ran is not just a social crisis and not just a political crisis. It's spiritual places as much as we have to deal with it at those other levels. We have to deal with it at this level in terms of who we are because really that's all that's left I. Mean we have dealt we. Konami gets dealt with the laws. Get dealt with these are things that are there front and center and I think. that as a species we know to do we know how to do that. Yeah, it's the spiritual aspect. They human. remained the human heart and examining at. Allowing, US ourselves to feel the pain of others. You don't WanNa. Feel your own pain. Why would you wanna feel someone else's pain, right? Yeah so. I. Think it's an act of love, an act of faith to allow yourself to feel the pain of another and. I think that's also why we have to accompany each other, because it's not something that any of us welcomes to feel that pain. But we do know that if we. Take something like that on together. It can be bearable so I mean that's why I feel like so important to have a group of us in this room together. Thinking about these things together. Gosh, there's so much else we can talk about I. Do want to. I do I. Do want to say that as I was reading this book and again this is this is not something you could imagine two thousand ten. I was thinking about the refugee crisis in our midst now. And it's not so much an American crisis, but it is because we are all connected, and of course we have refugees coming here. You told me last night a story about. A woman from agree yeah. Yeah Yeah! It stays with me and actually her daughter is here in the. Amazing reminded me of. When? The? Press it by saying that another thing about my father. My father had been a ski airman. And after the war, they found it very difficult to find work as as pilots. No one would hire them as pilots. Even they were considered among the best. that it come out of the war, and so he had to remake himself yet again and. In Doing Matt, he chose a totally different path. He became a civil engineer, so my father was literally a builder of bridges. And I carry that tradition, and that part of him into the work that I do, and it's only in the Times. This book has come out that I realized that that's the reason why constantly made these this gesture throughout the book to immigrants and to recognizing that? The. The people are great migration. These African Americans who many people might have been told that have nothing in common with a totally different. They're this or they're. That are actually actually did the very same thing that the ancestors of so many people in this country did. But any case I when the book first came out I didn't know. What was going to play out and I There is I was giving a talk on Long Island. Really bitterly rainy day but it was extremely one. It was a wonderful turnout, and at the end of the talk there was a very long signing line. The book just been out. There's a lot of excitement and at the front of the signing line was very diminutive woman, grandmotherly figure She had somehow elbowed her way to the front of the line. I don't know how did that, but she was she. Her arms were filled with books. That she had bought. She wanted me to sign them. But her eyes were you know were. We're red and. She was saying she was saying I I. Just I just cannot talk about this book that I just read the book I. Just I just but I just cannot talk about this book. She said if I start talking about the book I'm GonNa cry for sure. She said I can't talk about this book because this book is my story. She said. I'm an immigrant from Greece. And this is my story. And her name was Anna Steph, Anita's and. I don't think she would mind if I mentioned it. I ended up going. Just was so floored by that. We got our pictures taken. It was a lovely moment. and she said she was going to have the rest of our family read it i. then had a an event in Brooklyn. She showed up at that again. We you know we we. She was in tears. I was in tears. We have never really spoken because we're always just like you know in tears. And and that was that. was that bridge across the artificial barriers? That's a communing across the expanse. It's it was it was this beautiful coming together? That was so many things have come as a result of this book, and it's one so many various awards and notes but but that was actually within my heart. My hope that it could cross boundaries and I've had many many many experiences similar that there's a man of Pittsburgh. Who wanted me to sign the book on page. He said. This is the reason why I love this book, and it's because of a word you put on page whatever the page was to contain or whatever it was, and I said well. What's on that page? And we went to the page? And he said it was Serbia because his grandfather had come from Serbia to Chicago and it meant so much to him to read all the way through this book and. And then suddenly to see his the country of his ancestry there, and he wanted me to sign the, but he wanted me to sign the section. One of the comments from one of the EPA graphs from Richard Reid in which Richard Reid saying you know warily. We arrived from the you know the station and we are holding our our suitcases close to us because we are green, we are new and we're frightened in this new place. He said that was my grandfather arriving from Serbia and that's what I want you to sign. So I have had so many experiences and I think as reader what this opens up in the imagination is. The lot the lives of of beauty and Struggle and nobility. That are in that those crowds that we see and you stop being able to see them as crowds as as abstractions refugees. I WanNa read There's so much else we can talk about I. WanNa read actually the last paragraph of the book. And And just district flecked with you a little bit on that. Yeah. Over the decades, perhaps they're wrong. Questions have been asked about the great migration. Perhaps it is not a question of whether the migrants brought good or will so the city's. They fled to or were pushed or pulled to their destinations, but a question of how they summoned the courage to leave in the first place, or how they found the will to press beyond the forces against them and the faith in a country that had rejected them for so long. By their actions. They did not dream the American dream. They will it into being by definition of their own choosing by definition of their own choosing. They did not ask to be accepted, but declared themselves the Americans that perhaps few others recognize, but that they had always been deep within their hearts. And so you trace these stories of these individuals. These particular stories of this universal drama. and I wonder. And you really as you said, what did you say you channel these people in her brain? And heart and heart, and so how? What what? Did you learn. What do you carry around with you about? About what it means to be human through these lives that you carry with you now. I really have came to believe and to know. That we all have so much more in common than we been led to believe, and that we have been sadly tragically assigned roles as if we're in a play, and this is. This is what these people do this. These people do this what these people do! And the tragedy is that regardless of which assignment you had been? You had been put into. That might not have been your strength at all and I I just have gained in such. This has been out for six years. I spent fifteen years on it. researching and writing it. I have never grown weary of talking about it every time. I talk about it. I gave new appreciation and gratitude and amazement at what they were able to do. One of the things that I hope to do was to bring the invisible people into the light they. They never were be written about. We just skip from in civil war, civil rights in this entire part of our mayor of our country's history and their lives generations, actually of people skipped over not recognized, and I felt that that it deserved its own place and recognition I believed that you know the sort of bringing the invisible people. The light would help all. All of us to understand and see ourselves better, because we've been so affected by what they did, and what these people did I mean by sheer force of will, they were able to make the emancipation proclamation live up to its name in the in their individual lives to the degree that they could. It means that they were able to do what you know what? What the you know, what a President Abraham Lincoln was not fully able to do, and they were able to do. What the powers of be north-and-south were not really fully able to do and they it was about their agency, and they're making a decision for themselves and declaring themselves to be citizens which they had always been, but it never been really truly recognized. And I wanted to tell you that you know we I was talking about these people from other different backgrounds who feel such a connection to them, but to the people now. A woman who's she said I may reminded her was exactly like her Norwegian grandmother. I mean so. but Very unusual things that that has happened that seems appropriate for the conversation that we're having. Is that So, many children or grandchildren, children primarily of the great migration have come to me and told me with the sense of healing and completion that this book was the last book that their parent read before they died. And you would think that it would be incredibly tragic and sad, but it's the exact opposite. It's this was the they were great. The the the the children were grateful that their parents had had the chance to read this before it was too late. Remember these people who didn't talk about their experiences that it's also it's not i. mean these three here. You show how people continue to create lives full lives. Even with these circumstances and through these circumstances. And you don't know how to react when someone says. This is the last book that. My mother father read before they died. But they said was such joy and gratitude, and they say that it allowed them to come to terms with all that they had endured, and to and to give their suffering some meaning and to. That they had not been alone, but that they have been part of something bigger, some connection to you know immigrants around the world other people who'd come up from the south as they had and and others who had. been able to. Express their freedom and their individuality, and in the way they had chosen the that it was a peaceful and their view, fulfilling and healing way to have left this planet and. That means so much to me I mean these are always letters of thanks and gratitude. There's something new, said Oh. You talked about how? Part of what drives you as an aspiration to find strength in the discovery of what is true. And I think what you're describing is however hard. The truth is. It it does complete us it isn't it? Isn't path a necessary path to? Well. I say, but it seems to set some people free, yeah! That's a great great last word. I, Thank you so much and what a delight is!

Krista Tippett Isabel Wilkerson writer Fred Bunsen Pulitzer Prize Detroit Chicago Wake Forest University School Twentieth Century UNC Ashville Illinois Chancellor Mary Grant Isabel Mississippi Wake Forest University New York President Obama Evan Gurnee Rick To
#445: How to Close the Character Gap

The Art of Manliness

1:01:43 hr | 2 years ago

#445: How to Close the Character Gap

"This episode of the art advantage podcast is brought to you by proper cloth the leader in men's custom shirts, having trouble finding shirts that fit at propercloth dot com. Ordering custom shirts has never been easier or your custom shirt size by answering ten easy questions. Shirt started eighty dollars and delivered in just two weeks. Perfect fit is guaranteed in assured, doesn't fit the remake it for free. The whole process is risk free for premium quality, perfect fitting shirts, visit propercloth dot com. Slash manliness and use gift code mailing Esti at twenty dollars off your first custom shirt today. Again, propercloth dot com. Slash manliness gift code manliness for twenty dollars off your first custom shirt. You're welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcasts or people mostly good or mostly bad. Now we're out to think of ourselves as good people while thinking of the general population has not so stellar. My guess they argues that most people including yourself a really best described as a mixed bag. His name is Kristen Miller. He's a professor of moral philosophy and religion at Wake Forest university. And today on the show we discuss his new book, the character gap, how good are we? We begin our conversation discussing how Christian defined the extreme ends of the character spectrum and why very few people can be described as entirely virtuous or vicious. Christian thin highlight psychological studies that highlight both bad news and good news at the weather, humans tend to have praiseworthy or blameworthy character. And he studies also suggest that whether we behave virtuously or viciously often depends on the context find ourselves in we then discuss how to close the gap between how we should act and how we do act, including practices that strengthen our ability to do the right thing. We under conversation discussing how all world religions provides structure, mold development, and why we should be slow to call ourselves and others good or bad people. After the show's over check out the show notes at AOL dot IS, slash character gap. Chris, Miller, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me on. So you're a professor philosophy a week for his university in your focus is contemporary ethics in philosophy, religion, what's contemporary ethics. I took an ethics class in college, and we sort of like a overview as we talked about utilitarianism Aristoteles virtue, ethics Kant. So what's contemporary ethics show are. So the contrast is really with historical ethic Cy I don't stay too much what people said the past going back and digging into Plato or aerosol Akon. I'm really much more interested in ethical debates that are going on today and what we as floss, whereas my contribute to them and way I see contemporary thinks is kind of dividing up into three areas. There's what's called meta ethics which has to do with the foundations. Morality. What is my come from? What is the source summer outy is objective for all human beings, or is it just. Matter of social or individual construction, relativist position. Another area of contemporary ethics is what we call ethical theory or normative ethics, and that's what you were alluding to. That's where we look at different accounts of moral right and wrong different theories with try to give us guidance to figure out what the right thing to do is a Novon thing to do is. So you give examples like utilitarianism are Emmanuel concept IX or Aristotelian virtue ethics. And then there's a third tied to contemporary ethics, which is applied ethics where you really get into some of the controversial issues of the day, like abortion or death penalty, or stem cells cloning with these kind of things. So it's a huge field in a way more than anyone floss where can really get a handle on. And I just kind of pick and choose what interests me the most in that tends to be matters of character virtue and also issues at the foundation of morality. Where does morality come from? It seems from the book about the book here. A bit like that. You take a look a lot like psychological research in, you know, looking at ethics, right? That's that's correct. And that's a little bit unusual, especially maybe fifty years ago or for thirty years ago, flats words weren't doing that much at all. But in the last ten to fifteen years, there has been a kind of a groundswell of interest in drawing on psychological research to help floss verse do ethics. Now you might wonder while how I mean, what? What relevance does it have to play in my own research on character it? It works like this as a philosopher doing ethics. I can kind of think about questions that are more normative or more evaluative questions. Like what kind of character should we have? What does virtue look like? What is it? Honest person? But I can't get much insight into another set of questions which are ones about how we're actually doing today. So as a matter of fact, what is most people's character look like? Is it a good. Character is the bad character. Is it somewhere in between? I, we buy large, virtuous vicious or neither. So for that more appear question more descriptive question. I can't sit here in my armchair which I'm sitting right now and can participate about the questions. I need some hard data to wrap my mind around for that. I could go to different places. I could go to religion. I could go to history. I could go to current events. Plenty of things going on today. Have that could be useful to think about what character looks like in politics, for example. But what I prefer to do is to consult psychology and look to very carefully constructed psychological spirits, which put people into morally relevant situations, for example, give them an opportunity to cheat or not cheat, steal, or not steal lie, or not lie hurt, or not hurt help, or not help, and find out what happens. So do these participants in. This study actually step up to the plate and help someone when there's a need or not, or when a think they can get away with do they cheat or not. And so after looking at not just one study because that went tell us much, but after looking at a whole wealth of studies, hundreds and hundreds of studies going back in psychology to the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. I can kind of craft a picture of what our character actually likes looks like and then compare that as a floss flavor to what I think our character should look like and see what the differences. All right. So this is a good segue to the book because it's called the character gap. So it's basically looking at what we think how we should behave, but then it really would how do we behave on a day-to-day basis. So before we get into the gap that you say exist, let's how do you define what it means to have good character bad. 'cause I think that's a word, you know, those are worthy gets thrown out around a lot since you're a kid like you gotta be a person of good character, but no one really. Tells you exactly what it means, but you have a rough idea. So as a as an academic, you wanna get very specific. So how do you define someone with good character bring question, I guess even more confusing because people talk about character and other ways to talk about characters and novels like talk about characters and place. And even when I'm talking about my research, I get people looking at me, they think do I go to a lot of plays rely novels to do my research and I say, wait, wait, wait, let's start at the very beginning by finding our terms so that went out talking past each other. That's what floss where should always do. So here I'm not talking about things like that. I'm talking about boil character and moral character comes in two varieties. There is a good moral character, which is which are the virtues, and then there's bad moral character, which are the basis. So examples of virtues include things like compassion, honesty, courage, bravery, temperance, Justice, fortitude, generosity in the Mike now may merely saying that good character is to be understood. As the virtues just shifts the question over to what is the virtue? I think of virtue as having two main components or parts to it. There's our behavior and then there's the underlying psychology behind our behavior and both are really essential to being a virtuous person. So to make it a little bit more concrete, let's take a particular virtue, like honesty. So an honest person is expected to display honest behavior, not just once I, you know, as if I tell you the truth, one time gets me enough credit to count on us in general. No, it's not just once but repeatedly over time and not just in one type of situation either. So I don't get to count Zana's just because I'm honest in a courtroom. I have to be stabily honest in my behavior over time and across variety of situations, relevant to honest. So the courtroom, the party, the office, that home. Home school, what wherever those might be. So that's in a, in a nutshell, the kind of behavioral side of having good character, which I'm understanding as virtuous character, but there's more to the nets near behavior, even if it's admirable and praiseworthy isn't enough to qualify as being virtuous, why? Well, because underlying motivation in particular matters to if we just exhibit good behavior, but for poor reasons, morally dishonorable or unfortunate reasons, then we don't get to qualifies virtuous again unless make it a little bit more concrete with an example. We said, honest behavior, that's one part of it, but I'm just telling the truth so that I don't get punished or should I just make a good impression on some people on trying to impress those aren't the kind of reasons we would expect a virtuous person to be acting upon their merely self interested focused on myself. On my own benefits and not good enough praiseworthy to count as virtuous motives, which you need in order to have a virtuous character. So to sum it up in and boil down to one sentence, having good character above having the virtues and the virtues require virtuous motivation and virtuous behavior as well. Gotcha. So I imagine someone who's a vicious person would be just the same thing, right? It's pretty interesting how you can just flip that and get a vicious person. So vicious person. It's also kind of reliable near behavior repeatedly doing bishops things and across a variety of situations. So the cruel person isn't just cruel, you know, in in the forest or at the office or anything like that when become narrow situation, it's across the Friday situations and for underlying cruel would've -ation as well because they want to hurt other people or because they, you know, take pleasure in the suffering of others. So the one cat. Veatch all that though is vicious people who are somewhat careful about who have some kind of, you know, cleverness about being bishops, they will advertise their vice. So whereas you might see a virtuous person telling the truth alive, different situations or being generous to others in lots of different situations, you may not see a cruel person being cruel, live different situations when others are watching them because they know reliable to get punished, either get in trouble go to jail or whatnot. So they are reliable in their behavior by typically when they think they can get away with and no one's look. Gotcha. Something that that's interesting definition of virtues. It's very stringent and I, at the the motivation part, I'm sure gets really tricky because, okay, I went into law school and you know, some crimes. You have to figure out intent motivation, and that's really hard to do get sick men's Ray to get inside someone's mind. So how do you as a philosopher. Using psychology figure out the intent of people because people can say, well, I did it for, you know, x altruistic reason. But like really the reason was the other something else that was more self motivated by exactly and it ends. I mean, let's be upfront about it's very, very hard and are there no easy answers here. Let me instead of talking in the abstract. Let me give you an actual illustration of how a psychologist has gone about doing this in a case of a really important moral situation. So this ecology is name is Batson wanted to understand why people who feel empathy are much more likely to help those in need. This is a long standing phenomenon psychology well-documented going back fifty years that when you empathize with the suffering of others, you're much more likely to help them. Then if you don't have ties their empathy, empathy here, adopting their mindset and trying to understand the world from their perspective. So why is that. And what? What's the underlying psychological or motivational explanation and they're, you know, dozens of possibilities here. Many of them have to do a self interest, so maybe you help because you wanna make a good impression or maybe you help because you wanna to get some kind of reward maybe help because he wanted some kind of punishment, lots of lots of different explanations. So what Basson did is he tried to map out all the possibilities and then test them to see which one was the correct one and how how can you test them where you could see what's predictions each explanation will give. So if this explanation is correct, it would predict people behave this way at this other explanations, correct. It would pick the people behave in other way and another way another way. Another way. So difference, psychological explanations of motivation, generate different predictions about how we would behave. So what he did was he got people together. Put them in. He's different situations and see if they behave the way that was predicted, what's what's the, what's the upshot of it? Well time it again, the predictions failed every single prediction that was based on egoistic motivation. A motivation at says, I'm helping others so that I might benefit is some way failed in the lab. The only explanation was different motivational one that had to do with selflessness, being altruistic caring about the good of others for their own sake. That explanation time and time again lined up with how people actually behaved in different situations. So his conclusion after thirty years of research and well over thirty different experiments. I, I kind of track how many it was. It was that the most plausible explanation in this particular instance is that people are motivated by self less non egoistic mode. Gives to help others when they feel empathy for their suffering. Well, so I hear that and the thing that came to mind my read that was all about like objective est, right? Sort of an rind folks who say like, well, yeah, people are altruistic, but they're also Ristic for selfish relate. It feels good, right. So in the end, even altruistic motivations are selfish because, yeah, I mean, it does. It feels good when you help people like I feel good whenever I helped somebody. Right, right. So they're a couple of things to to disentangle here. Quick aside about I n rand and objective what they, I'm not expert on their views, but what I see them typically being interested in is a different question about what we should do. So rather than the empirical question are we always as a matter of fact motivated by self interest, but they were often trying to convince us is that what we should be motivated by self interest, whether we are in fact what Veda by self interest. So there are positions what's called ethical ego. This is a ethical theory about how we in fact, should live our lives whether we want to get into that or not. I'm perfectly happy to. I personally think that's really, really hard to accept very, very problematic dairy, but that's not the main focus of your question. You're you're saying, well, isn't it often the case that when we help others, we often feel good as well in the process. And so doesn't that ultimately render all of our helpful behavior egoistic have benefiting ourselves and the the key distinction I want to make here. This is when I actually liked to use with my students in, I think it's, I think it's really valuable is the difference between a goal and Amir side effect or byproduct. So to take an analogy when I'm driving my car, my goal is to get to my office or wherever it happened to be going. A byproduct is at my car is admitting exhaust into the environments as not my goal. Unless I was kind of weird polluter in. I like my goal was to pollute the atmosphere as much as possible. But that sounds really strange. That's not my goal is just a by product or side effect drying my car at clues the environments. Well, apply that distinction and analogy here when we help others, it is true. That's oftentimes it is for egoistic or selfish reasons. Can't deny that. But what is interesting is that Batson research and others have found that in certain cases, it seems like we care about the good of others, south Leslie, independent of whether we benefit or not. And if we happen to benefits, if we happen to be feel good about it, please that we did it. That's great. But it's side effect or byproduct. Our goal dislike driving the car is to get to the destination here. The destination is helping my friends or relieving that person suffering in Africa, Anna side effect or byproduct like the exhaust is I get to feel good or pleased about in the process. So altruism needn't be, you know, kind of drudgery in the NBA like I'm had to put myself through this with no benefit at all. You can benefit. It's just not. Your goal comes along for the ride. Judging that reminds me of some Viktor Frankl wrote about in mansard for meaning. He says, if you you aim for happiness or joy, or satisfaction like usually miss it. So like I imagine if you you go into an ethical decision thinking, I'm going to do the right things as make me feel. Oh, good. Like he probably won't feel good. Right, right. Exactly. So that's that. That court is absolutely line with what I was just saying. So if you're trying in life to find happiness, and that's your goal, your your own happiness. That may be a frustrating way to become actually happy a better to invest yourself and other pursuits which have as a byproduct or side effects that you become happy, much more reliable way to actually become happy in life. So a good person with good character, virtuous person does the right thing consistently for the right reasons. Right. So who are some examples of concrete examples? Flesh and blood examples of he would say what? Yeah, they're probably a virtuous person. Good. And and probably is important talked about ready, you know, we can't can appear into the minds of others. And since motivation is essential to now, we really can't be sure, but I think we can agree on some likely examples so we can go in different directions here. You can actually go to fiction and look at some exemplars from works affection. For example, the. LA MS the Bishop who helps out John Shaw and gives them the candlesticks, instead of sending him to prison. You can go to religious exemplars and and heroes throughout different religions. People like you know, Jesus or Confucius or Buddha, you can just talk about heroes and moral saints and exemplars from histories of different countries. So in our case, we like to point to people like ABRAHAM LINCOLN or Harriet Tubman the one the other way to go though is still looking your life and people who don't have a lot of celebrity status, but who you deeply admire for some aspect of their character. Maybe they're not perfect in every respect. But in one respect, they show a lot of integrity or they give it a lot of courage in this case, or they sit up for something that they felt was just and that's my, you know, could be your neighbor could be someone a co worker. It could be a family member so there there may be an, I hope there are butcher. People in our day-to-day lives, and they actually can have a big psychological impact on are becoming better people to got you into vicious. People think obvious, you know, Hitler would probably win that people would say was vicious purse. Probably a vicious person, right? So that's that's. That's a pretty safe, right? Yeah, that's my my to what am I? It's on the cover yet. Hitler there at the bottom there. You gotta helps do cover my has the exemplar of of vice, but you know, plenty of other ones we could talk about you if you wanna do political leaders, Stalin Mao, Pol Pot. Again, if you wanna go fictional, you can say like him. Some fun wants to talk about our people Scrooge for example, or the Grinch in before he later at the end of the book before he has his conversion, the Grinch wants to steal Christmas and you know some ones that are low closer to home in American society. I'm not going to get into political matters here about serial murderers, rapists Ted Bundy and the come to mind. So sadly, easy to come up with examples of ice as it is easy to come up with examples of virtue. All right. So those are the like extremes right people who are virtuous exemplars of people who are vicious. What about this? Most people are most people good or most people vicious because like there's a lot of people different, have different approaches to Delhi. Well, yeah, and people are just terrible. But for the most part and then they do good occasionally or enough. People are inherently good for the most part. And then sometimes they do bad things, what? What's your take by? So I mean, I would have to kind of talk about what good and bad. Meanwhile, we've already done that and then we'd have to to next ask while, how are we going to decide how most people are already indicated? I'm gonna look to the psychological evidence that's only one way to go here. You might want to look to other sources of information, but being clear that I'm gonna turn to psychology here. Two things emerge to make first of all, psychological research on what people think they're like an end psychological research, which I think reflects how people actually are. So on the first one people tend to have a high pain there on mall characters. So if you have a, if you give people a survey, say from one to five, where one is going to Penn core character and five is very good character. Most people will say they're about four. A five. They have, you know, they're not going to be a perfect or they're really, really good, but they say they've got pretty good character and that's to not just in general, but on specific virtues like honesty and generosity is also cross culturally been demonstrated. So it's true in Brazil. Justice at Struan in the United States. Now is that accurate or people's self assessments reflecting what their underlying character is like and might take away from psychology research where you actually put people into different situations and see lo and behold, what do they do? I tend to think that the assessments are inflated a my my own as well. I should say that I'm not, you know, standing up here some exception from the crowd who's got figured out. I thought I'd pretty good character before I got into this research to and I've had to kinda ratcheted down. So what I end up concluding is that we have what I call a mixed character one, which is not vicious. That's good news there. That's not. No, that's not overlook the fact that it's not vicious. But on the other hand is not virtuous either. So our character is not good enough to qualify. It's virtuous but not bad enough to qualify vicious. It's a mixed bag of some good features which will in many situations lead us to behave quite admirably, but I gotta hand some other features which are morally quite desirable or unfortunates, which will insert situations lead us to do terrible things. I've happened to give some examples of each, but as far as what my overall conclusion is that's where when I understand most people to be like where the most is important, I think of this as a bell curve with some exceptions. As we talked about there, some outliers on the virtue side like ABRAHAM, LINCOLN and Harriet Tubman there's outliers on the vicious side people like Ted Bundy and Hitler. But most of us, I think are in this kind of murky middle. So let's look at some of the experiments in psychology that bolsters this argument that people are not either really virtuous or vicious. Either could be either depending on sometimes the situation. Right. That's right, right. So you went to more positively. What should we do the more positive or negative? I let's do more. Let's do. Let's do bad news first, good news get out of the way. Well, I'll give you a one and if you want some more examples, you can get ask me for more, but let's let's take us one because it's pretty well established in a psychological research. Some other studies, there's some concerns these days about whether they're replicating or whether they were just kind of went off, not really a limited about our character, but this one's goes back to nineteen sixties and it's been replicated time anytime again. So it's pretty pretty solid. I it has to do with helping or in this case, not helping when in emergencies going on. These are the early studies were what's led to what's now called the bystander effect or the group of facts at a involve. You coming into the lab, signing up in agreeing to be part of a study taken into a rum given some. Materials to fill out a survey. Your task is to fail to survey. The person in charge leaves comes back. If you miss later with another person, we're looks like they're in a different volunteer for the same study. They're given the same aerials to fill out an toll to sit at the same desk or Saint table your ass. So the two of you are working away at your survey materials. The person in charge has left gone into her office and you know so far so good, but that after a few minutes, you hear a loud crash and in screams of pain and the person charged his saying, things like, Ouch. Ouch. Is this this bookshelf has fallen on top of me out. I can't get it off my leg my leg my leg. What would you do? Well, I'm not gonna ask you put your spot, but Obama, I think we would say I would. I would do something right. He will say, of course, I would come to the assistance of the person who's just had this emergency in the next room. Well, it depends if the. Stranger who's with you in the rum, doesn't do anything and continues to that survey as if nothing's happened. It's overwhelmingly likely that you will do nothing yourself in regional study from nineteen sixty nine only seven percents participants did anything to help when that emergency happens in the next room, whether that was getting up and opening the door or even just calling out and saying, do you need help? Only seven percents did anything. In contrast, when participants were by themselves is a different people different different day different. You know, different study when they were brought into the rum by the put in a room by themselves filling out the survey. An emergency happens in the next room. Seventy percent helped in that kind of situation. So seven, deep versus seven has a huge affect in psychology, and it's nice to the seventy percent helps, but really unfortunate. And I think a bad reflection on our character. Then only seven percent were willing to help when there was lack of helping seen by a stranger. Yeah, we, that's. They'll strike like we've seen this in real life like not too long ago. There was that guy who had a heart attack during the middle of black Friday sale at target, and he killed over and people just stepped over him. Right. Yep. So I talked about that example, and just to make sure that these studies are not something retreating Akkad amick, you know, exercises or something like that that have no real world implications. This is a study that has clear real world locations. The particular one out elaborate a little bit more that you're referring to is just one of hundreds of instances in our society where emergency happens and there's no helping because people are in a group and a kind of defer to the groups doing as opposed to rise to the challenge. So it has particular instance, this man in his sixties had a heart attack in. An a store. It was a target store, black Friday, lots of shoppers trying to get the best deals for themselves, and he was doing some Christmas shopping in advance of of Christmas. And you know, if you saw that happen, what would you do again, you would expect that you and others would come to the assistance of this man. Right? It was a crowded store, you know, and the deals were flying off the shelves pretty fast. So what ended up happening is that the shoppers heavy just ignored him is that they didn't see him. They saw him, but they didn't do anything. In fact, in some cases, they would turn around and go in the other direction or even more dramatically. They would step over his body to make sure that they got to wear. They wanted to go. And it was only after quite some time that's nurses recognize what was going on as stepped up to the plate called nine one one. But unfortunately he died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. So real world demonstration of a failure of character. You see that and you're like, people are just terrible. They have people suck. He could. I think that an in particular instance, their behavior was not honorable man. We just we should accept that be up front about that, but it's a jump to go from one behavior to how a person is in general, that's a bad philosophical inference that it's it's a bad behavior, but that does not autumn actually make a person a bad person, and it needs to be weighed against other kinds of behavior. Other instances where perhaps people are behaving quite admirably. So if you like to be happy to to switch to some positive news, we're gonna take briefly words more sponsors, their job sites that send you tons of the wrong resumes to sort through or make you wait for the right candidates deploy to your job. That's not smart, but you know what is more going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash manliness to hire the right person. ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. It's powerful matching technology scouts, thousands of resumes identifies people with the right skills, education experience for your job and actively invites them to apply. 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Peanut butter delicious peanut butter and vanilla almond butter. It's squeeze -able end spreadable impairs agree with fruit rice, cakes pretzels or straight out of the pouch of giving my favorite chicken Honey, cinnamon peanut butter for Rx nut butter, and the peanut butter bar and their expert. They're delicious. Do you wanna get twenty five percent off your first order, visit Rx, bar dot com. Slash manliness injure promo code Manley's at checkout again, twenty five percent after I ordered by visiting our expert dot com. Slash manliness enter promo code manliness at checkout and now back to the show. Yeah, let's get the positive or so in some situations, when there's lots of people, we tend to do the. Not the not good thing. What's something like an example of people shows that people are no people are have the capability of doing good. Yeah. So this will actually reference back to the example that comes to mind most immediately references back to our earlier discussion of empathy. So in Batson research on empathy, we have already said that he seen how adopting empathetic state of mine can lead to bastardly increased helping. So let me give you a more specific illustrative of this in one of his studies, the the participants were students in a class at a university and the professor way into the class and described what had happened to another student at the university, not in a class, but just the some student. No one knew had it been a terrible car back and needed a lot of help. And what what happened would the students in the class step up to the plate and helping us? Well, it depended if they were in this a little bit. Let me do a little bit more setup. I, if a group of those students have been given an empathy manipulation, other words, they have been told to try to think about the world from the perspective of the student who spent this terrible, correct. If think about the suffering she's undergoing then those students were very willing to help out seventy six percents of them. We're willing to volunteer to help the student Katie banks at on average donate an hour and a half of their time. Now, this is a student who they never met there. Probably never gonna come across in their four years of college. They've got a lot of their plates, but they were willing to do that as compared to another group of the students in the class who had just been the control group told, you know, just think about what had happened to Katie. But it took told nothing about adopting her perspective, only thirty, three percent of them. We're willing to volunteer to help cakes at thirty three percent where seventy six percents volunteering to help a stranger at their school based upon what do they empathized with their suffering are not. That's really impressive. I think really admirable n. adds that the second thing we talked about ready when it came to empathy that their willingness to bounce here and help rightly stems from south Lewis, motivation, genuinely altruistic motivation because they were concerned about the suffering of Katie for its own sake and helping her in her difficult situation. Action that just makes it even better. So this is not limited to universities or a Katie banks during like that. It looks like we have as part of our character, a genuine capacity to help others selflessly in a variety of situations, but that's a long side, different capacities, which will lead us to not help others in other situations. So it's a pretty mixed back. Another kind of mixed bag thing that you highlighted some the research you highlight services probably read about the the research that was done in the fifties and sixties with electric shocks milligram. Who did the the threat? Right? So yes, everyone probably is read that. So like some guy you went in and you were told that someone on the other side was taking test and they got the answer wrong, you're supposed to give them a shock in the shock. Scott progressively hired higher till basically, you killed the person and someone like the experimental was over this participants shoulder and said, you know, initiate the shock and like people kept doing it when I guess this was the show. That you know, explain why people during the holocaust, right. We're willing to murder people because they were they were order. Basically they were putting the responsibility on the the higher up for the bad behavior. They were took taking personal responsibility, but you even highlight. So this experience says, yeah, people if they're put in that situation, they're going to do terrible things. But you say that? No, actually the research, if you look at it more carefully, it's a lot more. It's a mixed bag because when people were doing turning the notch up on this, this shock thing like they were distressed that they were doing it. So that indicates like now people were terrible. They weren't psychopathic. They felt really bad about doing this, but you know, nonetheless they did it anyway. That's right. And that's really, really helpful presentation. So I think there are couple respects in which the milgram studies which seemed like compared I'm studies, bad character don't actually warrant that inference. So what you've highlighted is the struggle that the participants went through a. Vicious person. As we highlight earlier is someone who's kind of wholeheartedly invested in doing what they're doing, whether it's being cruel or being selfish or or whatnot, they're they're not very conflicted about it. They're just got on board with the ready to go. Well, the participants in the study, they first of all, many of them verbally said things like, you know, don't have to continue. Can I stop now and then the authority figure would put more pressure on them. They would say, things like, please continue or we need these results or you must go on. So they've already showing verbal signs of hesitancy and conflicts, but in there were also some kind of more internal psychological science to they would you know they would shake or they would be nervous or afterwards. They would be sweating allots. Sometimes they would have breakdowns or they would be crying or what not, not everyone, but enough of them to suggests that this is not the picture of a vicious versus a person picture of a conflicted person. The person who's really struggling. With what the right thing to do is in a very, very challenging situation. And there's there's another way you can also take it in a more positive direction to which is at milk. Grim didn't just do the famous version which we all know about. So the the one where the participant comes in and turns up the dial under pressure from the authority figure and about sixty six percents up participants, go all the way to the XXX or the lethal level of shock. He tried out all kinds of other nations. For example, whether there's no authority figure at all. I just the participants and the test taker in the other room. While in that case, the people were really vicious. They, they could, you know, turn out that shock dial as much as they wanted that is not like, you know, anything's really changed as far as unflicting pain on the other person if they wanted to do that. But lo and behold, without the authority figure participants. Overwhelmingly just went up a little bit. They turn up the shot down a little bit, but then they, they stopped after got clear that they were causing some harm or so they thought to the testing here. So. So I think there are multiple respects in which this study actually helps support my mixed picture of character as opposed to really depressing picture a vicious characters. So as I've been here, you describe these experiments in one thing that pops up is that context matters, but that also raises another ethical question. A big one like does free will exist or do we just do what we do based on the situation we, we don't really choose. So I imagine you have to think about that too, as a as a philosopher. Right? And that's that's a huge question. Maybe we're not going to get that done. Lets us all the free real problem here in in five minutes, so so being cleared that that's a huge question and we know how this give you the most preliminary answer. I can you're, you're right. Erases. All kinds of interesting questions which is free will and related to that very closely, it's more responsibility and praise and blame. So let me let me give you my take real quick. Take on it. Yes. These studies illustrate how much context matters. So in one context where there's the authority figures next to you, that might lead someone to behave in a certain way when there's no authority figure in the Malcolm study leads a different behavior. When there's a stranger in the rom is doing nothing. You might do nothing yourself with his no stranger in the room, you might rise to the Cajun and helping emergency. So, but in a sense, we knew this all along the context matters. I mean, you know what you do from moment to moment in your just ordinary life is very much a function of what kind of context you're in. You know what? Whether you're gonna eat or not, or whether you're going to stand up or not, or whether you're going to speak or not be very appropriate to speak. In certain instances, context allows for encourages zip, but in other instances, it would be very inappropriate context is not allow us saying a funeral to just get up and start on ticketing about something. So we already know the context. Matters last. But one thing that the u. studies illustrate is that context might matter in ways that are surprising quite surprising that we didn't recognize before we might not appreciate how the stranger behavior impacts us or how the authority figures behavior impacts us so much. Okay. So that's one takeaway on directly. The question of free will and responsibility. Let me give you a general consensus about what's going on Flosse an anti. It's character more specifically. So these days in philosophy, there is a large consensus that free will actually exists. Despite what you might have heard from other sources, maybe in the popular Meteo NAS, there's a few people deny free will outright. But like I said, the overwhelming majority of philosophers are on board with free. Well, now it is crucial doubt. In a longer discussion. We'd have to really parse this out to to settle what we mean by free mall and people mean different things, and there's more inflated. Donations and more deflated notion. So more robust notions more can minimal notions. And so some people think that certain kinds of free will are available in other kinds of female are not available. My Otake anaesthetise now, coming back to the calculator to is to is that situation matters a lot and environment manage the context manage a lot, but it's not like it determines completely what we're going to do. It's an input into our psychology. It's gives us information, but that are psychology than reflects on. It can reflect on. It can't think about it can process it and can way up different choices as to how to proceed next. So I can get this information about my situation out then I can ask myself the question, should I tell the truth or should I tell a lie? And I could way different considerations for telling the truth against telling the truth, etc, etc. And come to conclusion about what I think is the right thing to do. That situation and subsequently before Matt action and the they upshots Masami now is that I think I can do that in a way that's free NS praiseworthy or blameworthy depending on whether I do the right thing or not. So there are still hope for agency in our psychology. Even our agency is very much influenced by what's going on in our situations. Okay. So if context matters plays a role in how we behave and we do have agency on what we do, doesn't have complete control. What can we do to close that character gap? Right. Like I think I'm gonna say, ninety nine percent of my our listeners here they want to be good people. What can they do to become more virtuous. Right. Great. So let me just say real quickly explain what the character gap is and why I titled the book the character gap. I mean by the character gap, just the gap between how we actually are, which I. Is it got mixed bag and how we should be as people Joyce as virtuous. So there's a gap, a character gap between how most of us are in fact not virtuous myself included and how we should be, which I say is breakfast person. So given that gap, and I think it's pretty sizable. The studies reflect that we're not just helpless. It would be really a shame if I ended the book by saying there's this gap and sorry to see you later time to go home. But but fortunately I think there are some concrete steps we can take to try and bridge the gap, reduced the gap or whatever metaphor you wanna use. And in the the final section of the book, I outline some strategies which I think are not supremacist in. I go into some strategy tragedy, but I think are much more promising. So the key idea here though, is that I don't think there's any magic formula. There's no ten step procedure. If you just did this, this, this, this, this, bam, you're going to be an honest person our or take some. Metaphorically some pill. That'll turn you into non-person overnight is a slow gradual process that takes months years, and I really an entire lifetime. So having said, that's what's is available while I can focus on three strategies not as competitors, but actually, I think we need all three and probably wars. Well, maybe I'll give you one or two of them and you can. You can tell me how much for the wanna get into them. So one to starts off has to do with exemplars and going back to our earlier conversation about good people. Are there any examples of good people? So there's research that suggests that if we look to exemplars and moral saints, people who seem to have the virtues and we admire them, we can also want to become more like them. So I, I looked ABRAHAM LINCOLN buyer how honest he was, but not just doing. That distance, maybe sometimes I am. You know, just kind of treat treating Emma. Some kind of interesting curiosity, we could also have psychological impact on me. An inspiring me to emulate him is firing me to become more like him, not in every respect, but when it comes to matters of telling the truth, and that's been found to be true for historical exemplars, but the most impactful ones tend to be those who are in our daily lives. You know that the co worker or the family member or the neighbor who can exhibits courage or exhibits honesty or compassion for the poor. And then I see that and that has a direct impact on my own character to so one strategy for bridging the character gap has to has to do with seeking out and finding an EMMY landing people who are already doing much better than us. Another strategy not abso- stop. This one has to do with learning more about our character said more. We are more aware of the obstacles inside of us to becoming virtuous. So when you read the psychological research, you're at least I am impressed that they're all kinds of ways in which we fall short abridged I didn't even know were there. Now he's obstacles like the group effect. For example, I, I was surprised to learn the impact of being in a group can have on my not helping others. Well, what I call the getting the word out strategy involves learning more about these obstacles, whether it's by reading the research, that's hard for people, our busy lives, but reading summaries of the research, reading potluck presentations of the research, reading listening to podcasts about the research learning more about these obstacles so that we are more aware of them and Ken combat them when we. Need to. So that's the next time I'm in a group and I see an emergency happening someone's, you know, falling off their bike or is having a heart attack or whatnot, and the rest of the shoppers or that people the park are just add like nothing happen. Initially. I might hesitate not do anything myself with it. I might be reminded wait a minute. Why am I hesitated? This isn't Brennan good reason. It's may have to fear embarrassment or something like that or diffusion every onto the other people. That's not what that's not admirable. I need to step up to the plate here even though other people aren't helping that doesn't justify by not helping. And so hopefully I will be more motivated to intervene MandA factor some some, but not many studies, which have found that to be the case. And you talk about in Austin, the book that chapter dedicated like religion seems to do all these things in a in a systematic way, right? There's like exemplars, moral exemplars, Christina, has Jesus Buddhism, has. The Buddha see, look at these people, they inspire you. There might even be individuals within your congregation, whatever that inspire you to live virtuously and even like scripture in different religions, they, they play. They play up the fact that you have a tendency to do the wrong thing in certain situations, so understand that so you can do the right thing, right. That's exactly right. So at the end of the book, I have a final chapter on religion and what I am thinking there is look, most people these days reports that their religious and this is also true throughout human history, and at least the major world religions have had lots of same about character. So it would be a shame to not least take a look at some of their writings as see if there are some helpful insights which we can glean from them, whether we're religious or not. So parks that chapter, I just been discussing character improvement from a secular perspective, and then I switched this religious perspective it for different audiences. I think it can still be helpful for a second radiance. It can be helpful for them to see if there are some insights which may might be applicable to them translated into more secular cabbie Larry and still be useful for character improvement. But I also for religious audiences. Let's take a look at some of the ideas in your particular religious tradition that could be helpful supplements or additions to more secular approaches and in this chapter ice focused specifically on Christianity because I didn't want to just do a really cursory overview of a bride, different religions like spent five pages on hit. It was five pages on Confucianism and five pages on Judaism. I thought that would be so superficial and kind of insulting to the different religions side. I wanted to dive deeper into one religion, but then also stress. That's a lot of what I say maps onto other religions as well. So it's not by any means suggesting strongly opposed the suggestion that Christianity has some kind of unique role to play. When it comes to character building as if no other religion has anything to offer. So that kind of framing background in mines required rights Christianity. But also other religions have last to say about exemplars. They point to say Jesus as the role model to follow, and also Christianity off the made mention of saints as well. And and the early followers of Jesus like the Postles about have some things to say about what the obstacles are to becoming a better person and how we might combat them have often a lot to say about what specific practices we can engage in in our daily lives around a weekly lives. What concrete things we can do, things like fasting or tithing, which Christianity his commitment to give away a certain percentage of your income to charity or prayer or volunteer work. These specific practices. Confession is another one. Which if you commit to them can in the long run, have character building implications. So something like confession would involve telling others, a priest, friends, minister, whatever about the wrongdoings in one's life, which can foster things like humility, forgiveness, compassion. So they have concrete. The point is practices that could be implemented and utilized as a means of getting us further on the pass of bridging the character gap. Imagine the community aspect is a big role to read your around. Other people who are all trying to motivate each other to do good. That's right. And that's that can be true in a secular context too, but it's especially true in religious context because the wind is familiar with the most. What am I say? Overly familiar with the most outline practices for believers or followers to. Engage in, but they rarely say that you're supposed to do that on your own as if you're to come, here's what to do and Delaitre do your best is rather, here's some things to do, which could be helpful and lo and behold, you're, you're not left to your own devices. You're going to be surrounded by a community of other people who are going to be doing the same thing, and that can be dying on all kinds of ways. They can mutually support each other. They can encourage each other. They can also provide exemplars and and role models to each other in some respect or other, they can in a different way, be helpful in disciple ING and disciplining his words. We may not make us a little bit uncomfortable, but just kind of calling out ways. We might fall short in a loving, hopefully, moving in the courage way. So it's engaging in religious practices as part of a larger community, which is also engaging in those practices in a mutually reinforcing and supportive way. Also a two-thirds, the idea, all these. Different religions. There's a belief that you can change that you can get better, right? They don't seem like you're stuck like this. No, there is a there. You have the power with maybe the help of divine assistance to transcend. That's right. That's right. And it better be that way because most of these religions also fried moral praise and blame to people. So the appraiser for certain good acts and blame you for certain bad axe, whether that's God's gonna do that, or the gods are gonna do that or or karma lady that are set or something. So it looks like we're going to be held responsible well, if we can't do anything to change our characters, and that's, that's pretty might be unfair. But you know, fortunately, good news is that according to these religions again and I'm familiar with, I don't say all we have a certain kind of character, but that character is malleable. And the expectation is that we are, perhaps we, in conjunction with some divine assistance are supposed to. Move our characters along in the direction that God or the gods or the religious authority intends that character to be and why that character to be in the first place. And this is thankfully a commitment that's backed up as well by the psychological research. So again, it would be unfortunate. If religious view said, you can change your character, and here's some steps to do it on a psychological research said, oh, well, actually when we do the study as it turns out that you can't change a character stock, but that'd be unfortunate, but it's not the case, psychological research backs up on Peres purely secular empirical grounds the idea that character can change slowly gradually but still change over time. So another takeaway from your research, new, your study of character that I think is important that I took away for him. It is that okay? None of us like we don't. There's a character got like, there's a way we think we should behave, but we fall short of it. We can bridge the character is gonna take a while, but I ain't important takeaway from that is we should cut each other. Some slack like everybody. Some slack. I mean, grace maybe have some grace for because like, you know, they're other people are going to be dues, you know, bad things and certain situations, but they're also gonna do praiseworthy things in certain situations. So so instead of thinking like now that person's terrible, maybe not. They might not be a terrible versus just the context and they're maybe they're trying to do better. That's right. That's very, very well put. And I actually wish I had said more about that in the book. I think that is definitely what I believe. But I think I didn't emphasize it enough as as I should have. So there a couple things strike me right off the bat. I would really commend the idea that we should not go from one action to a conclusion about someone's character. So you know, just seeing someone she on attests. I wish wish to be very nervous or clean. Careful to go from that to the conclusion that person's cheater in general so actions. One thing character is another in order to really get a good assessment of someone's character. We need to see how they behave over time and in a variety of situations. We need a lot rich mosaic of their behavior ideal. So their underlying psychology before we can reasonably make conclusions about their character. And then the other thing that really struck me about what you said is that don't be so sure that you would do the same thing yourself. So you know the the milgram experiments, they Bill Graham before he ran those experiments cut, ask people on the streets. What do you think you would do if you were in that kind of situation where you had the chance to turn up at shock, dial and under pressure from figure? Well, those people said, what's a lot of us say, which is I would never do that or I would only turn up to, you know. Moderate amount, but I would never turn all the way up to the lethal amount and kill someone. Well, don't be so sure about that. If you're actually in a situation, you might behave deplorably to just like participants actually did sixty six percent of them turn out when they were putting the situation that milgram constructed. So I, I think your your choice of the word grace is is very appropriate here. We don't want to go too far in the opposite. Extreme disconnect skews say, okay, you know, you're off the hook or not that big a deal. You know, go about your business, but when it comes to judging and forming conclusions based upon judgment of other people's character, that's have some grace, and let's have some caution humility at like, don't you have some humility as you approach with yourself and with other people? That's exactly right. I should've. I should've used the term. Well, Chris, this has been a great conversation. There's someplace people can go to learn more about your work because you know you've done a lot of research in writing about morality and ethics. Imagine there's more sure. Well, you know, based on a conversation at the natural starting point would be the spokes that we've talked about the character gap. Beyond that I would recommend people perhaps visit my my website which they can find. I Wake Forest just by googling my name and Wake Forest. I also I'm on Twitter and on Facebook at character. GATT has one word, no space character gap. But in finally, I'm, I welcome to people reaching out to me directly. So my Email address is on my website too. And if someone has a question about character or ethics more generally speaking, you not. I can't promise. I will get back to you the very same day, but I, I will work really hard to get back to within a few days and you know, help either taste some things of a hopefully helpful manner or. Points the person to some readings which might be useful for that person. So I'm happy to be a resource in thinking about these matters. You know, someone's going to ask you about free will if an exist. Go read some bucks. Yeah, there they're, they're good books out there, which would be a great starting point Christian come on. This has been great. Dr Christian Miller, he's the author of the book the character gap. How good are we available? Amazon dot com. Also check it or show notes at AOL, dot IS, slash character, get refined links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another dish of the art of manliness podcast for more manly vice meek. Sure. Check out the art of manliness website at art of dot com yet over four thousand articles. They're also if you have done so ready, really appreciate us review on. I tunes or Stitcher helps out a lot if you done that are ready. Thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member you'd think would get something out of it as always thank you for your continued support until next time. This is Brett McKay telling you to stay Manley.

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"I Can Do Amazing Good." Liz Vennum is Running a Life and a Law Firm as a Lawyer with ADHD

JDHD | A Podcast for Lawyers with ADHD

58:10 min | 9 months ago

"I Can Do Amazing Good." Liz Vennum is Running a Life and a Law Firm as a Lawyer with ADHD

"Nobody nobody ever accused me of having. ADHD I thought I mean even pretty much up until I was diagnosed. I thought it was like a halfway imaginary label able for hyperactive. Little voice coming to you. From the deep and weird and ADHD fueled recess of martial neo cortex this is this J. D. HD podcast for lawyers with ADHD where we talk about finally getting stuff done we help you optimize your law practice disc your business your life and your brain. We hyper focus on ideas. Tips and tricks for every lawyer with ADHD whether they know they have it or not and now now your host a guy who felt someone's big eyeball in his poem. Marshall Lick their. It's Marshall and I'm a lawyer and I've got ADHD welcome to JD HD podcast for lawyers with ADHD. I'm so thankful you're here and I'm really excited about are episodes day with a woman who cracks me up. She is hilarious. in-kind for me she's been personally motivating and It also just a great supporter and encourage her. She's an entrepreneur. She has her own firm throat law school and her life she has. It's been a creator and a starter of things And she is one of the people who came to me so early on in my journey with JD HD and his been a a really a motivating factor for me people like. Liz are people who I want to shine in the world she has adhd she is out about her adhd and she has had her struggles with it that she will share with you. But I'll tell you behind those struggles. And when I talked to her and hear about her and hear her passion and her energy and her creativity. I know that people like Liz make our profession. Better her Her firm her existence the way that she supports people her team clients and when I think about how. JD HD can be in the world it is for people like Liz. She's a lawyer and a practitioner in North Carolina with an incredible resume with big firm stuff and a a wake forest law degree in some Vanderbilt Undergrad. She's been active in the bar and associations through law school and her lawyering ring career. She's organized legal Kalinic's she's submitted amicus briefs to the Supreme Court and has spoken and and she started a facebook group for ADHD lawyer. MOMS and I am so thankful for her vulnerability and the way that she has really just helped me feel alike. JD HD is important. So I'm excited for this interview with Liz Venom. The first ADHD lawyer other other than me that we've had on the podcast she's blazing new territory. And I hope you will hear in her voice. All of the things that I love about her was Benham and Liz Venom. Welcome to the JD HD podcast. I am really excited to have you here. Thanks Marshall I'm excited to be here. Yeah Yeah One of my favorite things about you right out of the gate is that you have an incredible ability to tell stories that resonate with me right in my soul. You share anecdotes and I'm Mike Up. She has me. She's my spirit animal. I think that the navy hd thing so you have ADHD I do. Yeah Ah but you didn't always tell me about growing up. As a as an undiagnosed ichiken was so I think I did always. It's not something that you suddenly develop rate. It's it was with me always but I just I wasn't diagnosed until I was in law school. I was a single mother in law school with a two year old and so I think I had some coping being skills that got me through elementary school in high school in College. But they weren't up to the level of law school and life fortunately chillier unfortunately has only gotten more complicated then. So that's when I have needed to start learning different coping. Goodness a single mother in law school with a two year old well to give my son credit. He's really good. I couldn't do it with my daughter. She's she's she's wonderful in her own special way but my son was the only kid in the world. I could have done this with. He would come to class with metering snow days where his little headphones and just sit there. Come on all right well so before you are in law school with a two year old. WHO's listening to headphones in a snowstorm? Not In a snowstorm at the time consistent with snow storming What was was it like before? Where you hyper kid bouncing off all the way walls when you're in kindergarten? Oh heck no I wish I had hyper activity. I'm very very chill low energy person but I I would be obsessive with things for example embarrassingly. I was really into a handsome fan fiction in middle school. And so no I had two best friends and so like you know. There's three Hanson brothers so we were gonNA marry widened so every night I would write a new chapter of our the Hanson Fan fiction. How many chapters written many one of a still has them? But I won't say who was yours I don't want it I just Isaac but let's me anyways the fact that I was so committed to that and actually like made it happen every single night. Sort of an. ADHD thing single-minded getting so into something that was a positive use of my focus ability. Yeah what did it look like in school. I assume because you're not bouncing off the walls that teachers weren't saying wow that lives she's really. She's really struggling nobody Nobody ever accused me of having a baby. I thought I mean even pretty much up until I was diagnosed site bought it was like a halfway imaginary label for hi breakfast voice and then part of me would think no. You're an intelligent and Dole. You know that mental illness is not a choice and people have been still. There's a stigma that oh it's EXC. Parents need to better discipline their children. Whatever but no I mean I? I was very rule following. I sat in my seat. I was afraid of getting in trouble. Never I was never that hyper kid in school. Did you perform at school. I wasn't blessed to be honest. I I was good but I was never the best that that always killed me because I'm a projectionist I was always a student but it wasn't good enough interesting and totally consistent. I mean it was. was that true all the way up through high school. Yeah I gotta be in high school and I was really upset about it Yeah it was in but it was in a math a math and so I feel like you know master hard so what you said to me was. I wasn't the best at school. I independence right. You were kind of the best at school. Yeah I mean I was. I was good at school because I could figure out what the way that the teachers would ask the questions. I sort of understood what kind of answers they wanted. And how to learn what's going to be on the test and what's not. I've always had a good instinct instinct for that or learned that so. Yeah I got it wasn't I didn't have to try very hard to get decent grades. I did have to try hard to stay awake in class. That I I have told a story elsewhere of Before I was diagnosed when I was in law school I had a law school professor. Who is you know? He's a a giant in the field and the profession he's well regarded everywhere. He also has this monotonous voice any style of teaching those brutal to me and I wasn't getting enough sleep and I fell asleep in class. Virtually every day until one day when my head literally hit the desk and then I stopped going to class because I was mortified. I had a college. Let's professor where I would fall. Always fall asleep in his class and so he started bringing chocolate covered espresso beans to class and when I would throw them at me. That was a nice way of doing it. I didn't think that was how chocolate covered espresso. Beans kept people awake but it turns out that as a very effective way it would have been effective if I could catch them are all right. So you're a smart kid. You are kind of what we know. Now is sort of the Avatar for a young girl with inattentive tip type. ADHD so you're a rule follower. You're performing well in school And you have some perfectionism you have these really high expectations. Sion's He may have a problem sleeping in school for the most part you are cruising right. Yeah Okay so you go to Undergrad. I mean to be honest I was kind of a party person. It's an Undergrad so I don't have a lot of memory but I got the Dean's list a couple semesters things were pretty. Good on Req- it again. Yeah it was definitely harder than high school and I had to up my game a whole lot especially when I thought I was some writing genius. I was very good English and then I got to college. Professors are like the B. B. Plus though I had to relearn how to write what they had to relearn again in law school. Yeah for the most host Park College was I could try hard enough to get it done did you. Did you find any cracks in the armor. Or maybe maybe tell me a little bit about when you started to feel you'll cracks in the armor in my adhd armor will. I've never been able to be organized person. I was always doing things at the last estimate and I thought that was just a self discipline problem. I thought well if you just get better organized you wouldn't be studying the night before the test you would. Would it be doing your project the night before it's due that's so undisciplined of you and now I know that's part of it is like getting good discipline but also part of it is ADHD HD and. It's not a lack of discipline. It's a lack of coping skills to keep that from happening. You're listening to JD. Hd podcast for Williams with ADHD with Marcello. Lippi this procrastination thing. You've got this perfectionism thing you've got waiting to the last minute. What was the trigger that you knew you needed to actually start doing the work on it? Do the work on work on a project on the project on thing that it was due the next day Most of the time I could pull it off and get a good grade but there was one time a couple of times where you know a crashed and burned and okay. Now I've learned my lesson definitely not GonNa wait till the night before again I did that experiences resonant with with me too I assume there were some nighters built in there. Yeah I don't even I don't know if I ever had to stay up literally the entire night until law school but there were definitely some late nighters in college. Between UNDERGRAD and law school. You had a real job of some sort. Yes I did. What was still not diagnosed? Yeah I had a couple of different jobs jobs and it's crazy. I didn't actually now that I have that was items with ADHD. I can go back and see why different jobs were not a good fit for me any because of my adhd so I worked in a daycare. Because I love kids and I didn't know what else do with my life and then I worked at an ad agency because it was an interesting thing and then I were to the construction company as a secretary so when you apply for the bar at least in North Carolina so you have to get used to confirm that you've never been fired from a job and if you have you have to explain why and I was fired from a lot of jobs and so I had to go back and thinking can I called. It was the the Ad Agency. I didn't remember way I got fired. And I thought they fired for nobis and I was so sad about it when I called him and I said Hey here plan temper law school. He was like well. Liz You're one of the smartest people that have worked for us and you kept doing these dumb things. He said one time there was a check you needed to take to the bank that you put it in the mail and we couldn't. We couldn't keep you so that was way I got fired. And that wasn't and it turns out that guy wasn't a alone in deciding You had some parts of you. That merited firing well. Oh Yeah and the daycare. I just didn't like being told what to do. It was a wonderful place to work and they were great. They cared about the kids. I learned a lot actually actually a better daycare parent because I've worked at a daycare but we had to make three d art Wedneday because the state inspectors were coming in that was one of the learning learning to get ranked high. You have two different kinds of learning three d art with one of them well that day. I just didn't didn't WANNA make three. Dr And it was sort of like this very basic thing. Why didn't you just do this very basic thing and so Alan was? I think I actually resigned from that one but I mean he likes the honest. It wasn't doing super hot all right so I want to move to law school and really what I want to move to is. There's a moment in in your life when ADHD comes into the picture. Tell me when I couldn't read I couldn't read. I've always it's been an English word and then I remember specifically trying to read my contracts book and just looking at the page over and over and over. Why can't I read this them? Enter the information's very dense. It's complex. It's hard for anybody but I knew that it shouldn't be too hard for me because I got into law school. So what's the problem with that and I hadn't been in school in a really long time so I knew it would be hard adjusting acting to like sit still pay attention but it was Ni- on impossible so I think I had a I had a friend who is. Adhd the and some of the things he talked about. I was like well. That's KINDA NEAT too. But I'm not as Wacky as you so maybe. ADHD turns. I I am I'm also Different ways I guess. So how did you go from. I'm having a hard time reading this and it turns out. School is hard to chatter with Brandon potentially essentially for me one of the hurdles in learning about ADHD is even really knowing it's a thing and then where do you go like. What are you even do once you start having this little inkling in the back of your head that maybe I have? ADHD did you try off to a neuropsychologist right right away in book an appointment and get diagnosed. Well I already saw the psychiatrist at my law school at the on campus for depression so I had a relationship with her and it was something that she had asked me before was about. ADHD but I was definitely. Not I just I was like no. That's not my problem. I'm just too anxious anxious blah blah blah. Whatever I'm too tired and then when my friend who went to the same doctor because there was only one on campus with talking about problems he had in how they were related to? ADHD started to think. Okay it's not just like hyperactive kindergarteners. Who can't sit down? There's oh I could read. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble couple of being so how was the process of That meeting and getting getting the diagnosis and what Tell me about how you felt. Afterwards it was really hard. She had me take a test and I have to think well it. I don't even remember but the typical questions like do easily get distracted and I kept thinking well if I tried harder. I wouldn't. If I were more disciplined I wouldn't be the taking the judgment out there. which is I mean so I dealt with depression and I have family members with depression and in different struggles? So it's never judgmental saying and I would never judge someone for having diabetes and eating insulin. So why am I putting on these judgments saddened by myself for having a condition that needs treatment. So did you Psychologist looks you in the eye and says Hilas. I've got some news for you you. This is a thing. Tell me about what you what you did. Was this the first year of law school for you. Yes I think I think it was. Yes okay. So you're saying what. How did it go? Yeah I mean literally like what happened right. You're in an appointment with someone and they say you have. ADHD EH where. Where did it go from there? What happened after that? I kind of figured it out before that because I spent a lotta time on the Google's during around that time trying to figure out about what it was in so it was just a relief at that point like Oh thank God. This is why this is why I always think well you could be first in your class if you tried a little harder while you could keep yourself organized if you were just wanted. Flynn just to be able to let that go not that. It hasn't come back to life many times. The let that go and think Oh. This is why some things are really hard for me. Yeah and give some context. I always like this idea that I'm not looking for an excuse. I don't need to excuse myself But I would really benefit from a little bit of context and a little bit of an explanation for why that pattern earn capture recurring or why that things shook out the way that it did and for me. That was the biggest part. It was literally just being able to look at stuff that I used to hold in this deep deep. Shame box inside And say okay. It's GonNa take a long time to make the shame box. Go Away completely but at least I have a new Lens to look at those things through and that for me was was a big relief to yeah so that weren't relief really really resonates for me. Yeah for sure because like like inside the box where things I couldn't do. My only tool was try harder. Literally my only tool I knew doing my best anyways so it was basically I had given up upon being able to do things that I think that encapsulates a perfectly for me to write the I just need to work harder and then you actually then you actually work harder and it still hasn't been actually. There's a decent evidence that it can get worse right so if you're sleeping too little or now you're skipping lunch because you're working talking too much or now you're making these choices that are actually giving you less margin and less space for error by working harder. You're actually making it even less likely that you'll we'll be able to stay focused or prioritize or start something on time or keep your thoughts organized or your desk or your calendar or whatever and It's this sort of it. Has the potential anyway to be a spiral That really just needs the exact opposite a recognition. That trying harder isn't working and I tried. The hardest of all time isn't going to change so I need to look at it through a different Lens right absolutely our website the JD dot com makes this podcast possible sign up for a completely free ten day. Email course introducing you to Adhd for lawyers at indeed dot com slash course So I I mean I've I've done my google work on you and I. I know that you are objectively a Rockstar. You're from Wake Forest University School of Law Right. You were You organized legal clinic to help. People get their healthcare power of attorney. Squared away you Revised an entirely dead chapter of the North Carolina advocates. For Justice. You organized brown bag events to help local lawyers network with and meet students mentor for them. You're in women and law at for justice. American constitutional society outlaw all of these things in law school with a kid just diagnosed. So so. I know that you're objectively rockstar. So you take that That diagnosis and you do what are those rockstar elements of your your resume. The function of you just being pumped full of Medications no I didn't do any of those first year because I was Lost but I think those are the results of finding out that I can do amazing. Good when I I focus on what I want to do. And then focusing on it I guess letting myself obsessive about the things I care about and get involved to level that other people would mean. I discovered a secret about all those different groups and stuff that people talk about them but not actually wants to do worked for them to help you on the board to show up to organize the meetings and it's not actually hard you could just do it and people are really happy and grateful and it brings people together so that was really a really enriching part of my law. School life is being able to be involved in. That seems like a theme. We'll talk about more about the business that you're building right now Later but it seems that your entrepreneurial spirit and your willingness to be the one who takes the Mantle Oh and does the work and engages the people and builds the community. That's been consistent across all of these experiences and I think that's a that's one one of the things I love about. ADHD is I think folks who can get enthusiastic and can get energetic and can get creative about You know the way that we're approaching coaching. The things were involved in something. That's just absolutely missing from a lot of places particularly in the law and so I love. I love that at work. That's a really neat set of things that you've spent a bunch of time and energy on and I like to think and I am. I guess that's a question. How much of of that you think is unique to people who have ADHD and being able to approach these things and try new things and be excited and energized by new interesting things? Can you think it might have to to do with slight social awkwardness to where we don't realize like I just go ahead and say something and then I realized later that perhaps I should not have said that doc or so I think part of it is just do something and then later someone thinks. Oh my God did not and then I'm like wait. That's not a thing I can't just go start my own group right. I mean impulsivity at work right. You haven't you didn't take the time to think of all the reasons that you shouldn't you when I was. I was a CEO. CEO Mom after before law school with my son and I joined a moms group in town and it wasn't really a great fit. They were nice but they weren't my people. So then I started a green mom's group for like the organic crunchy people which I was one of and I wish I still wear but and it turned into a huge thing and there were like one hundred hundred people there by the time that I left town and everybody in there would have started the group because they wanted the group but it just took somebody who was like. Oh here's how you started group. Are you sign up for meet up. It's thirty bucks. It also isn't the first group that you've started and in fact There's one that's particularly topical for this. podcast tell me about your facebook group. Oh my adhd mom's group so there's this facebook group for a mom who are lawyers called law moms and there's like fifty thousand women in it like basically every lawyer mom probably a member or on the wait list and is not a wait list for a snobby reason. It's just that you actually have to get married. They have to look you up and make sure you're aware earlier and make sure you have kids. Wow Yeah so it's a great group. It's really supportive. Everyone should apply. If you're monitoring your lawyer what's the name of the group Llamas Lama. So we'll we'll link to that Michaud notes so you can join Liz and fifty thousand other. Lam's yeah it might take to get approved but just because they really do look you up so anyways in that group I posted a couple of different things about ADHD. I think one of them was. has anyone ever worked with with. ADHD coach this. I was working at a firm and I kept thinking I need to get my. I need to get better organized but I need someone who understands the Anti. ADHD brain works. So I posted about that and then they're saying people kept commenting over and over again about Adhd and so it we had all these these two things in common right we were lawyer Moms and we had adhd and so the other moms who have like the color coordinated birthday parties for their children matching socks walks. They don't understand about the rest of life so I started a group in. It's not an offshoot or sub subgroup. Because that's not permitted by the admins but it was a lot of the same people. It's mom's you had eight hundred lawyers and it's been a mentally helpful awful because they're people understand that your kids don't have matching socks order or you don't post your perfect Bento box at lunch or Nazi the Pinterest lengths that you need for your kids. You talk about how. I'm so glad that my kids lunch is on auto pay for. I don't have to think about it. Totally great productivity by productivity tip by the way if you're listening figuring out whether or not your school district has auto pay for like the lunch the lunch situation my my God that's magical but then like when you get a new credit card and it doesn't auto pay you feel like the worst parent ever these emails. Three weeks updated updated. Meanwhile you're going deep into debt and you know So but well first of all tell me the name of the MOM lawyer. You're ADHD group. So I can drop it in the show notes. Oh it's a it's a pun. It's law Mama's focus group. I think and I'll get you the link for the show notes but it's Lam's focus group right. Yeah one one thing that I've learned about. ADHD ecosystem is that we love our puns and we are are creative. But I think the puns have pretty much run their course Including Myself. I'm totally guilty of this too. So I wanNA talk about your firm in your life i WanNa talk about being a mom being. ADHD MOM and running your own firm and being an entrepreneur. All those things but before you WanNa talk a little bit about Your Business Because Your Business is relative relatively topical to your in addition to being Sort of a business lawyer. Startup lawyer helping folks with forming businesses and doing other business related had law things You are an employment lawyer and I guess I'm really interested in because I know you have developed an interest in this. What does it tell me about the landscape before people who have ADHD in the workplace? So it's the Americans with disabilities act requires employers to accommodate disabilities right that make sense and everyone can understand. Oh you need to wheelchair ramp. You know if you're in wheelchair or you might needed organic chair. If you had a back problem disabilities visibilities at our physical are easier for employers to understand accommodate. Great value. The chair. Sure you need an anti glare thing for your monitor. But they're also required to accommodate emotional show in mental health disabilities which is a lot harder for people to understand. I think as a society we've made great strides but still people think the mental health issues are try harder or be normal and perhaps ADHD is on the fringe perhaps employers are accommodating for depression. Perhaps there are other mental struggled but then when it comes to Adhd it's still like well try harder because even martial united talked about this the the attitude magazine which is a great resource for people with ADHD. When it talks about employment their best advice is like probably? Don't tell your boss I'm sorry interrupt that like that is not just attitude attitude certainly but it is elsewhere to the podcast is feared the belongings feared. The book is fear the employment laws fear. Everybody's ecosystem is saying this is the kind of condition or disability. Or whatever. We're calling it. That is the kind that still carries so much stigma that saying it out loud can actually be a really big problem for you. Either explicitly or because of some simmering narrative about what it means that you have adhd and its impact on your ability to get at work or get clients or whatever absolutely and it's it's awful you wouldn't say don't don't tell your boss about your cancer. I I mean it is true that in the workplace there are bosses who discriminate and who are bad. But I'd like to think that if there were better understanding around mental health you owe. ADHD doesn't mean that John is going to be late to work every day. It just means that. I need to talk to John About how he can get his work done. This and that's what an accommodation is. It's not a you you get to do an easier job or you don't have responsibilities. It's just what do you need to get from like by myself. Seventy five percent but I need to get one hundred percent done. What can we do to close that gap? Yes I'm really interested in that and I'm interested in a couple of angles on a one being is We'll talk about what you would do if you took attitude magazine's advice vice second but let's say let's say you do want to come out about your adhd and go to an employer and say hey I need some accommodations accommodations. What does that look like? What are some of the accommodations that makes sense for folks with ADHD in the workplace? Well it depends on what you need and what you do so I would suggests make sure you understand typically what you need before you go into it. Technically you don't have to with other disabilities you just present yet yet. The struggles in is supposed to be a collaborative back and forth with the employer to come up with the solution. Here I would suggest going the extra mile because a or ADHD. We're going to do it anyway. and it helps them understand what you're asking of them So think if you get distracted really easily I know at my old work. People have conversations and it was an old building echo. You can hear things and so it was hard for me to focus. If I'm like. ooh What are they talking about over there in so oh closure door when you're doing deeper when you need to focus and people know you're not being antisocial. It's just that hey suzy's working on something just something as simple as that or if you need to have noise canceling headphones or you need to turn off your notifications. That could be really difficult. Sometimes Zim players you have to be on Messenger and you have to respond to your email and you have all this other stuff and then I would not get anything done if all these vacations popping up so if you say hey. I'm going to respond to my emails at eight at twelve in it. Three between my door if it's an emergency something like that so identify. Hi I what you need and then have a plan. Yeah I think there is so much power in knowing the things that are hardest for you And I think awareness right. I mean you said you said the word that I am dancing around right because self awareness is the thing that we can be very good at Usually our judgment is off about rights myself. Awareness tends to be through this dark dark lens of kind of goof up. I kind of do things up. I kind of messed that up. I always mess things up. Plod sort of what my wife calls the Itty Bitty Shitty Committee right. It's the the internal dialogue about how bad stuff I am. So it might be that I'm self-aware issue but it's probably not completely accurate and you could be you know people people who have. ADHD can also be wrong on the other end of the spectrum. which is I am really good at this thing? When I haven't even seen my blindspot about this thing and that can be really difficult particularly if you haven't been diagnosed or haven't spent much time thinking about What your symptoms are thinking about the executive functions or where your challenges are so that is great? Advice is to spend some time in energy figuring out what those strengths and weaknesses are because Regardless of whether you tell an employer or don't that is really the key to building an environment to make sense for you well and one way so when you were talking about the whole Izhak Talk. That's a good time to figure Out What your weaknesses are so one thing I struggled with a lot and now 'cause I figured out a hack was I would file things forget to attach exhibits to them. Which is a stupid stupid mistake? Fortunately it was fixable but I kept doing ed and I would just think Oh my God I kill. You did this again. This is so embarrassing you were. You always doing this okay. That's not a great helpful thing to say it happened. Let's think about how it happened. was I doing something else while I was getting ready. Ready to file. Do I have a checklist before I filed things. Just having a checklist is how I felt that. I talked with productivity expert I think he's I think he's up so it will come live after yours does. But a guy named David say who I think is a fascinating guy calls himself an investigative designer and One of the things that he says is that checklists in general are these oppressive tyrannical tools except for are when they're used in a way like that right like these are the things that you have to do every single time so like You know the checklist manifesto by a a tool go on day Do these things in the operating room or do these things as an airline pilot or do these things as you're about to serve and file document As a great. That's great checklist checklist fodder But having a list as long as your arm that you are overwhelmed and can't start right to do is get started on all that. Nothing can be a different kind of problem in one that actually in David's as words really is radical and oppressive for sure. Yeah I definitely have that issue two. I'll make a to do list. It'll be three pages long and every day like people say oh you should bullies aren't old because in the next thing you move it over. I'm like I can't believe that anything's awesome. Let's make adhd easier is hard enough okay. So here's here's where I'd like to go if you don't mind so we spent some time on employment law. There's a lot more there and I would encourage anybody on the planet who's interested in talking more about this with Liz or anybody else You know to head to either facebook group or a law MOMS or Liz facebook group for Law MOMS with ADHD or the JD HD website. Or wherever you want to be a community of people who are interested in talking about these things because I think there's a strategic element and there's a legal element there and I'm thinking about about how you work in your workplace with. ADHD is important. And I think I want to move to something else because for you anyway being someone someone who has. ADHD isn't something that you have to tell anyone and that's because solo partner you have your own shop your own thing. Tell me about Venom Law Not so much what you do but how you do it in a way that Your ADHD is controlled and powerful as opposed to uncontrolled controlled. And I'm difficult. I find people to help me. I don't try to do it by myself. Because do it myself and try harder not successful. Upper delegate sometimes not helpful either. I tend to be at that. So tell me how you get to other people. I was really lucky. I found an assistant whose is amazing and understand me well in so she can sort of interpret what I am saying most of the time so finding people who supplement in your weaknesses is the most crucial thing I can say possibly find people and I would say you have to tell them the eight zero at least tell them. Hey I'm gonNA forget things. Hey I might be late. It doesn't mean I don't care. Make sure they understand why you're doing these things and then why it's so important for them to be rock solid on those things that outweigh you know if we have different weaknesses than we we then we try to think of an analogy if not like a basket right. It's like it it. Holds water is the waves. I'm doing motion with my hands. So the dossier. We can't fight you. Fill in the gaps. That's what I mean the gaps in in different weaknesses. One thing that I had the most fun doing when I was With loyalist more formerly was. I got to write a a post about manager. Read me which is this concept. We won't go into it but broadly speaking. It's about writing a document. Just like a coder or technologist or software developer might rate read me about a piece of software managers right read music that basically say. Here's here's a user's manual to working with me and I not only did I write the post but I got to write my own. Read me and it was really fun and interesting thing And when I gave it to the people reported to me It was really useful because I had there was this level of self awareness to say. Listen this is stuff that I'm really not good at. It doesn't mean you it doesn't mean I'm ignoring you. It means that I'm hung up on it and if you could remind me or if we could manage differently next time or whatever or at least address it Those are things that can make make our relationship better over time and so the idea of a manager read me might be a fun one to think about but obviously you're on your own so you're not writing a manager. Read me really other than taking a great assistant and working. I Have People Marshall and not all on my you know it's so funny that you brought that up because actually just finished reading good boss bad boss by Robert Sutton and it talked when he mentioned about being a good boss is letting people know how you operate. And I. I do that informally but I mean for some reason. It seemed a little egotistical to to me to make a like a user's manual because it's like hey everybody on super important but it also could be helpful And I've been fortunate. The people I work for have picked up on that I had a summer. Intern was amazing. They're both amazing but sophia she. One day I had to get something done and my age was used in full swing and I was not having it. I was like doing some Amazon shopping and she came next to my desk and she would not leave and she was like Sinus. Do do this and I mean other bosses might have gotten mad but I really appreciated that. She knew exactly what I needed to do. And that she understood that I wouldn't be mad like that. I would that I was okay for her to do that. I Love I love the manager. Read me rabbit hole on on. Google is kind the fun in most of the time. What you see is rockstars make lists for the green room the Orange Eminem in in like this really inter- but in a much more sort of adorable way right? The people who do this are people who are trying to be you know servant leaders who are thinking about their people I there. You know the perspective that they usually come from is not like hey. I'm going to yell at you a bunch and that means it's time to get your shit done they're like sometimes yon. It's because I'm frustrated complicated life and whatever at and so. I really really liked him. Because it's the empathetic servant leadership e set of writing that I think you'll find much unlike a rockstar. Who wants only green eminem? Yeah I mean it really is about somebody who has been elevated to a position and they They know that with that comes this What sort of a worship? It's it's lonely at the top. Maybe a I'm approachable. Maybe A it's impossible for us to really know each other because you think I'm your boss and Oh fire you and so reading some language around that and even having document I posted my you know on the Internet for the whole world to see and You know having writing that thing requires himself awareness. It's a road map for how people can work with you. I really love the concept whether you do it and share. It is really kind of secondary area but the exercise of knowing oneself and sharing with the people around you Is this is a really powerful tool judgment for sure I think even even it's something that I wish I had had previous jobs because there's very much trying to like read. The tea leaves like Oh. He slammed the door. I think he's in a bad. We don't ask them about different or vases in here today. We don't know what's going on. It's a mystery in the book. Good boss boss. There's this he tells the story about how a woman who got promoted to the CEO. She were a certain type of scarf and the next day. Everyone all the women in the office were wearing that scarf. And it's sort of like. Oh Wow I didn't realize that this is what happens right. I'm the kind of people whose wardrobes matter to other people. Yeah it's a weird weird thought it'd be it is I mean when you think about you pay someone salary without you. They wouldn't have a job right now. Then yeah it is power so I take that to me. That's A huge responsibility and I love being boss so far I love creating a workplace. That's you're allowed to have faults. Let's just be up front about him and figure out what to do. I love that. I've really enjoyed that and I think. Hopefully it's a great place to work. I know I like it here that I can see. Obviously I've never worked there but one of the things things that I can see in sort of your approach to people and talent and relationships is you have a an alumni page on here website with sort of still keeping the BIOS of people who used to be with you but aren't anymore it's almost like an Omar to the people who have left and saying you know you are not here here but you are here and and were thankful for you and that that says a lot about community. It says a lot about supporting people it's about remembering people and I love that part of your website. No that's really important to me because I've worked other places where you get an email. Susan Jones is no longer with the firm. Good Luck Susan. What happened is I'm scared? Could it happen to me and all the hard work that Susan did you go through the the server and you find all these documents made Susan and you're like wow whatever happened to Susan. Well I mean I don't have a huge alumni page because I'm a recently new firm but the people on their did great things is that helped me get to where we are and so those people are still hard of us not to be too sentimental but I mean I still stay in touch with them and I value the worked. They did so. I don't ever want it to be sort of a slam the door type thing. If you move on great -gratulations let's be friends a love Tell me about some of the other things that you do running affirm that help you manage some things that might otherwise be a challenge for people with ADHD. We don't start until noon on Mondays days. Why why try honestly like we're not getting anything done it's torture? I mean I have two kids and I've been and we have weekends where we spend time together and I'm like I needed extra time to recover without my kids after the weekend. So that's that's why we don't start till twelve and I don't. I think it's a great role you share with your clients. I mean that's a website that we don't okay until twelve so so if you call won't answer what else. But the converse of that is that I do more than happy to work around the clock at somebody needs need something I mean for some reason. I guess it's my personality. Is I draw people who are procrastinators. Or who got this in the mail about a lawsuit in its due tomorrow. Great Call Me. We're GONNA get done. I'll stay up all night. I'll get it done. I'm good at that and not a lot of other people can do that for you though. Call and they'll say. Wow sorry buddy that was you know so to call me a month ago and so yeah. You can't call me before twelve on Monday but you can. I might be able to help you with something that takes all nine Tuesday. Setting boundaries can be really tough for folks with ADHD. And it sounds like you've voluntarily set a boundary around your Monday mornings but you've also removed boundaries in other parts of your practice and have you struggle with the balance between the boundaries that you have in place and enforce and the ones that there are there but aren't enforced or really. Aren't there at all. Oh for sure I mean I'm really a bleeding heart care. Everybody and I want to help everybody and so I am learning the hard way that you can't. You can't help everybody. You can work around the clock for some people and it just you. You know if this case has bad backs the case as bad fax in. Let's just let's take a realistic approach instead of like you know it's GonNa be a hard one but we're five is hard to be honest. This is not. Let's not take this. It's not take this. What's a good analogy? I was GONNA take his horse to the race track. But let's not. Let's not even try because this is hard card and it's not gonNA work Or would I approach Prefer it's just like hey it's gonNa cost you this amount of money and you're still gonNA lose. Are you okay with that and most people will say. Now I want to say yes. Don't even mean it but Give them a couple of days so I I do have a difficult time with that though. With what what stuff is worth working through the night for and what stuff can we till tomorrow because if your client you've got one case in one case only usually and and it's important it's on your mind all the time I mean I've been on the other side I've been a client before it's the only thing you think about all the time. It's so much money that you're spending and it's all you can think guitar and so when you call the lawyer and they're in some other meeting like what he's working on right. How dare you not think is as important as I do? And it's it's important to remember that it's not that you're not as important. It's just that let's look at what has to absolutely absolutely stunning today. And why can wait and I'm still have that figured out. Still definitely working on it. But it's something trying trying to work work on trying to improve as I go and trying to set realistic expectations with clients. If you people don't respond to emails right away or else or clients. We'll start expecting. Yeah well I know my clients. Some of them need refunds right away and other ones they don't so yeah I like some of the ideas around time blocking that help you set those boundaries. A little bit too right so one of the one of the tools actually kind of a combination of tools that I really really like they can has worked well for me. I'm made me much much more. Productive is time blocking so using my calendar and very proactively and preemptively writing writing down. What I'm hoping to get done during the day and win and literally like during this hour I'm going to do X Y and Z? What now do is have a couple of blocks for answering email and I have a couple of blocks for answering phone calls and if you WanNa talk to me you need to book in through a scheduling tool to talk to me during those times and it could be off putting a package to the right way? I think it works really well which is listen the way that is the way that I most most productive. The way that I provide the most value to the world is being able to do deep work and think hard and work through challenging problems and write things that are important or persuasive or whatever and I know that when I pulled out of that work I get bad. It might not be your case that I'm working on when a phone call or an email comes in but I want to make sure that when it is your case that I'm working on that I'm in it all the way and so help me work through this and book through and you have a phone call that you WanNa have and then it also lets you get some notes right. What's your issue? What what's the question? You're trying to answer the when you actually get on that that phone call. It's not fifteen minutes background background and another thirty minutes of sort of. Oh Yeah. I'm not sure about that. Lemon have to look that up. I'll send you a memo. I'll do whatever you've got. The question beforehand do research beforehand and you can deliver it during phone call Bing Bang Boom. Everybody's moving on and so thinking about ways to keep your productivity up while serving client needs particularly as a solo or a small firmware. But this true for everybody is critically important. There's data out there that says every time you're interrupted it takes twenty three minutes to get back back into flow days twenty three days he man. Amen right okay yeah. You're very right about the time blocking. And my nicest shelly. She'll block my time but then I have to actually follow it just to be clear. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm an expert. Yes I don't want it but I don't want to portray the idea that I have killed this problem. I haven't at all because it's like there's a bright shiny emergency let's work on that But it it's a process. And I think empowering other people at my firm to talk to clients to answer non-legal questions is important. It's not about how do you can only ask the attorney now. Of course about your bill. They probably can help you. They probably can help you better than again so making sure that they feel comfortable and equipped to do that takes that takes place so we try to take Sort of unrelentingly positive approach to Adhd. And you believe that it's a superpower are and their strengths to be derived from it and I will stay true to that however I will also share that you have on occasion made me laugh out loud out with a text message or an email. Finish this sentence if you would so. I'm sitting outside the dentist's Office on the crew and I'm too embarrassed to go wait inside because I locked my keys in the car and I'm waiting for the locksmith and others. I mean that is you are all of us and there are parts of this condition that I think really are super powerful Our empathy our enthusiasm our creativity. Our for Entrepreneurialism our ability to handle stress in stressful situations You know I think all of those things are great great and sometimes you're embarrassed to go back into the waiting room where it would be more comfortable to wait after you yourself. Out of your car again I also love I love the idea of the ADHD tax which had kind of heard before. But now I'm literally. I actually literally created a document on which I am keeping track of the Adhd balance-sheet. So sometimes I write down. This was a net positive. This was a net negative. And I'm just trying to see if my adhd tax is outstripping my ability to earn ADHD revenue and offer. I actually don't keep track but so at Marshall's talking about is when I told him what I got locked out of my car. I had to call the locksmith. And it was like seventy nine bucks and I could. It'd be mad about it but I just consider it a tax on. Adhd people like this is my tax like if you do something stupid in it costs money tax on stupid so this was. That's that's part of a tax on. ADHD the money that I spend on post. Its so you actually tally Marshall. I've started to and it occurred to me that no business no operation organization Asian only keeps track of the debits. Yeah right point. Most organizations also keep track of the revenue and I. I'm interested in the experiment of whether or not there is revenue from ADHD in really part of the entire underlying. Lhasa fee of this podcast is that there is revenue and that is going to vastly outstrip. ADHD tax but it wouldn't kill me to start keeping some data. So that I can you know so that I can prove it When you were talking about before the podcast positive things from ADP? I remember this time when I was a new associate and we were trying to figure out whether we could use the corporate tail on this person and I was looking at his instagram. And I spent Larry All night going through this person's instagram every single picture but there were huge using Cobra vehicles. And get you know. I'd made the connection but I had to about six hundred instagram pictures to do it. And I'm like no one else would have done now. There's not an associate in the world. I think who would have gone through this person's Instagram by. I did it and look what I got. I don't know ended up settling before. Of course obviously the case settled before we needed my information. But I wouldn't want that lawyer on my side the person who's GonNa go looking for the details are are downright and hyper focusing on it and chasing it all the way down. I I love that. That is a great great story and that one for sure it goes in the ADHD revenue line. So when You Start Your Ledger. Stark even dragged. All right I've got two questions for you. Do you consider yourself a bit of a pessimist or a bit. I'm an optimist half full half empty. Sort I'm an optimist. We really get the glasses all full. You just can't see it yet all right well then. I'm going to start with the the the question that is less exciting if you had a magic wand and you could wave it around. What is the one part the one feature of ADHD yours or in general that you wish you could just disappear out of everyone does that? What does that mean that you would WanNa wave a magic wand and right now nevermore will anyone deal with it nastiness? I would love to be organized. Perfect I know where things are. But it doesn't look great flip the script you're saying magic wand different incantation what's the one feature of your. ADHD or someone else's that you wish everyone in the entire universe add tens of humor the ABC people. Don't take themselves too seriously because we can't and so if other people understand that would be great. I love it Love it Liz. I am so thankful that we had a chance to talk today. like I said you've brought some light to my life and not just when it's self deprecating but when you when you share your struggles but your challenges when I get to look at your website and see the kind of business you're building when I get to here you tell stories about the kinds of people you've helped and how and how you really put your Adhd to work to be to enhance what you already are. which is he's a builder of communities? Someone who starts things someone who impulsively and I'm pathologically breeds new things and brings people in to join you there. I'm just so thankful to have you around into have you on the podcast to share your story with folks. I'm really happy to be here. Marshall Thank you. Well if you WANNA talk talk to Liz about employment law or ADHD or anybody else or the weather in North Carolina today or anything else. The best way to find her is on her website. And of course we will leave that in the show notes we will put it elsewhere including out onto the social. And you'll be able to find. Liz there here and elsewhere. Liz Thank you so very very much and we'll look forward to talking to you again. Talkies and that is Liz Venom. She's just such a wonderful contribution to the world and I'm so fortunate that she came on and shared all love her bits and goodies with us on the J. D. HD. Liz Thank you. And if you are like Liz if any of what she said resonated with you Stick around we're going to be talking more people like Liz. We're GONNA be Creating a mastermind group. We have resources and tools also popping up on the website every day. And I'm working on some. CLE's in some other opportunities for folks to engage with JD HD. Meanwhile I would love love it. If you would subscribe to my free ten day email course check out the J. D. H. dot com slash course and sign up and or ten days. I will send you some some emails and you'll learn a little bit about ADHD hopefully get curious about it if you already have adhd and you're a lawyer and you have some tips or advice or you WanNa come on the podcast chat with me and if you don't or if you don't know or if you're only curious let's dive in reach out it only gets better with education and with knowledge and with help. Let's make ADHD easier this law thing. It's hard enough your next week. Thank you for sharing your attention so generously the single best thing you can do to support the JD. PODCAST and this community is to help. Spread the word far and wide. Please tell your friends and your firm's about it subscribe rate and review us than your favorite podcast Sir and please join in our email list at the JD HD DOT com slash start. We can't wait until next time. Let's make adhd easier law is hard hard enough.

ADHD ADHD Liz North Carolina Marshall facebook depression JD HD Google Wake Forest University School attorney CEO Lam Isaac Liz Venom Hanson Undergrad
Stop Talking, Start Networking with Ryan Narus and Adam Kipnes

The Entrepreneur's MBA with Adam Kipnes

41:11 min | 1 year ago

Stop Talking, Start Networking with Ryan Narus and Adam Kipnes

"If you're a small business owner looking to grow or expand your business check out on deck business loans on-deck offers business loans online from five thousand dollars to five hundred thousand dollars and they're simple application. Process only takes ten minutes unlike banks. They'll give you a decision. Quickly and funding is as fast as one day. Get a free consultation with an on deck loan adviser visit ondeck dot com slash podcast welcome to the entrepreneurs m._b._a. Bringing you lessons from real life entrepreneurs. They don't teach in business school. Here's your host business coach and marketing strategist adam kipness so many of us have ideas where we want to create a new life for ourselves we want to do oh x y and z and then a day goes by another day goes by another day goes by and we're still on our jobs or we're still doing the same thing we were doing before and and it's not easy whether this simple you just have to do the first step. You could call it taking action. You can call it picking up the phone whatever it is if you want something bad enough. If you need something bad enough you will find a way to make it happen but so often many of us find ways to not make it happen and that could be taken our business the next level if you're already have a successful business it could be starring that business could be getting that for client so many times we find reasons reasons not to rather than reasons to and i think today's guests is really going to encapsulate that in a way that others haven't on the show because of what where he was the time when he started his business and what he's doing now and it was all about just making a commitment to himself making humidity jewish family and take the action on what what he wanted to do. This is adam kipness host of the entrepreneurs n._b._a. On cast and the ak business accelerator appreciate you taking some time to listen today as as always we are brought to you by power texting dot com and on c. suite radio appreciate both of their support power texting dot com gives away a free trip to one listener all the every show so stay tuned for more information on that. It's pretty cool foreign five star hotels that <hes> <hes> somebody's gonna go and be able to enjoy get a way for a few days. My guest today went down the traditional path. He went to college got his m._b._a. We're really good college. Actually and god is education and said you know what i'm done working for other people. I'm i'm done with this clocking in clocking out nine to five lifestyle. I need to do something else for me and for my a family and started on a path that his really taken him in a great direction at a young age at joy story's going to be great ryan narrates. Thanks man for being here. I appreciate appreciates the a fun conversation. I am flattered and honored to be here and i pumped to have an awesome talk very cool very cool so you were a traditional all southern kids you went to high school. You went to a pretty well to do private college in north carolina right. It's it's a big name especially. If you're a basketball fan right and you're on your way to probably some core corporate gig working for bench america whatever in charlotte where where you live what was that like and why was it that you had this need to do something different. I just felt like i was lied to a appoint way. I'm a millennial that got the whole pitch of study hard in school. You'll get into a good school. When you get into a good school any do well there. You'll get a the job then you stay at that job and then you have a good life if as well at stable ray hurrah while that's not true. It's not only not only so i went to wake forest. University twice. Waft love the university tim duncan chris paul. We in my generation's been forced bed. This idea of you you study hard work hard in life will reward you in. That's just is not true. It's not not only now to be fair to graduate in two thousand nine so undergrad which was not a good timing is everything i graduated from my m._b._a. Twenty sixteen and the economy is great and i applied the government's been something like fifty jobs and then i had i think less than five full-time offers so i mean you're talking ten percent or less of actual offers and the job i wound up selecting. I really felt felt pretty stuck in pretty quick. 'cause i didn't wanna get promoted if it just meant more stress less meaning and purpose in my life and for not that in more hours for not that much more pace i wanna go up and then going out. It's like an n._b._a. Gives you the solution that you can give it in your career so i just i was sick of it and i didn't have any money and i didn't have any experience and i had no network and i went. I don't care. I'm gonna figure out a way to do this and if i might before you ask the first question throw in one of my favorite quotes around a rapper whose who's who calls himself a little dicky many as a rap song snoop dogg <unk> amazing rap song where snoop dogg as the guy interviewing him is like a boston austin a little dickey's applying for a job in his sales pitch includes us one line where he goes. I'm not one of those kids on the block with nothing to lose. I must have wanted this a lot because i had something to choose. I think that's really really important because as they say the cliche burned the ships right right act against the wall really seal that fire up against you the gift and the curse of having an n._b._a. Or even just an undergrad from eddie eddie school wake forest ivy or community college or anything about is you do have access to good jobs comfortable jobs cushy jobs abs and you do get this illusion of safety and comfort that you'll always be able to find something and that is a gift and a curse hearse because oh does it make it easy. Do not chase your dreams so i like to say that you know if i had nothing to lose naturally because because of where i came from where i grew up i did it have that i had something to choose like little dicky set which made it harder so i had to find my own own way to burn the ship so to speak. It's really interesting you say that because so many of us find ourselves in in that world if we know that we have this burning desire or a simmering desire i guess to start our own business or to take our business to the next level but if you're running a business and you're doing you want a couple of hundred thousand in revenue. It's really easy just to stay there or if you've got a job and you can go every day. It's really easy to stay there and not not choose to do something different for you did you. <hes> did you start on this path in your own business in and ryan does does real estate and we'll talk more about that in a second but did you start on that path while you had job or did you quit that job and say i'm outta outta here. I'm gonna you'll make this work chicken him. Oh it took years so truth be told i i got a credit. Tim ferriss for hour work week for making me realize i was meant to be an entrepreneur. My dad's a college professor. He's very risk averse <music> and my mom is saleswoman so i was pretty much. I'm going to be a salesperson for my career and then i would like to teach which has got both at running through my veins but i read for workweek. Tim ferriss i realized money divided by time is the most important the statistics speak if you make one hundred grand but you have no life eddie live in new york city on top of that you're middle class lower middle class for living in manhattan right versus your megan only thirty thousand dollars a year but you're working twenty hours a week in the middle of nowhere our country. Where are you can live like a prince. That's the kind of juxtaposition that embarrassed for our workweek forces you to look at and then excuse us and so that was around two thousand housing twelve but that's really fair because i had started building skills in reading books and i i was graduated in two thousand nine. Wait for psychology policies <unk> new knowing what it'd be a sales person could not find a sales job because no one was hiring people with experience so i went. I'm gonna go sell cars 'cause mile. L. karate instructor was a car salesman manager at a car dealership and so i was like i'm not going to send my mom's basement. I'm going to go do something right and so i did really well until i hated it and then i felt stuck because what am i going to be able to get promoted and go to the office hated even more and they get promoted again and be a sales manager and then be stopped there forever her so i realized at the car dealership. I don't wanna be the general manager. I wanna be the guy with his name on the building because that guy shows up when you win an award award banquet. He's not the guy getting blasted by someone who doesn't matter what you say. You're coming our salesman right so that's you know that that was my that quickly. I realize that was going to be my dream and then i realized i have no idea how to do it. If you were to ask me in two thousand twelve how many millionaires i could call texter mr email and get a warm response from within twelve hours that does not include family. I would confidently tell you the answer to that is zero. That number is mind blowing different. One of my best friends is is very very wealthy. I have a treasure trove of other other folks that have a very high net worth that they'll call me out of the blue just chat which is amazing and the the thing that i ultimately want to drive down here. Is that i dig it would be fair to go ryan. You start your business in july of twenty fifteen. It's now august of twenty nine thousand nine. That's four years in a month. You've been full-time for two years and change enj- so all. I found my business that took a year to prove the concept that took ear to prepare to go full time now. I'm two years into it. I don't think that's fair because i really we started in two thousand twelve knowing what my journey was supposed to be just not knowing what medium i was going to choose but then that's not even fair because i did get educated education at the car dealership in my undergrad through my whole experience reading everything i could and talking everyone could so it's it's everything everything and and i think the question ultimately wanted to ask there is does it make sense to just quit your job out of the blue and chase something no my i try to tell everyone who wants to do what why did and achieved time freedom step one prove the concept proved that it's making money once you can unequivocally say the number one thing holding me back from just exploding might number one limiting factor is time and my number one time sock as my job. That's ask the time to say. It's time to make a big bet on myself because if you if the n._b._a. Or you know you're you're hardworking. Your career has meant anything. You should be able to get a job if you take a twelve month hiatus doing something else so when you're eighty looking back on your life what what would you rather say when you're thirty. She like me that wow you know what i made. A big bet on myself and i failed but i had the courage are hey. I'm glad i stuck with my job because that was the right thing to do. Do i think we can all agree not only for yourself when you're plus or minus eighty also for your kids has had a great conversation with this guy yesterday who is fifty years old. He's got three great kids and he he heard my an interview. I did on another podcast. He said you inspired me. I said i don't care if you're twenty or fifty or whatever age if you want this go and get it because if not for you i told the mosaic you got three great kids. What are they going to think. If you go bankrupt they're not. They're not gonna think all wow my dad's loser. They're gonna think we'll first and foremost <unk> have time with them which is important right because you've you've freed yourself corporate america but also they're going to go. You know i'm proud of my dad. I'm proud of my mom. I'm proud that correlative took a big bat on themselves. Even though they failed they had that courage and i can't think of many better lessons to teach your kids so not for for you to do it for your kids an interesting perspective because became while starting a business. You can't go into it thinking a game all right. What if this fails writers that that were hold so many people back but at the same time you have to be thoughtful about it because there are so many <music> roadblocks that are gonna come in your way. There are so many landmines that you're gonna step on it and you started this business while you were still in school getting your m._b._a. So you had sort sort through signs of your brain. One was like let me continue to do this. Corporate thing only better because i'll have my m._b._a. The other is oh. This'll teach me good stuff that i need to know when i'm chasing my dream in running my business and <hes> started the business investing in mobile homes and and like i said before it doesn't matter what your business is. <hes> you know the the rules of business are the same but you started investing in mobile homes specifically mobile home parks arch which are big investments lots of capital great cash flow once you have them but you gotta find the capital but you said you had no network you had no will experience in doing this why mobile homes and what did you learn in that first year while you were still oakland school. That told you yes this is. This is what i need to keep going. After so that's an interesting question and i'm gonna give you a response. You probably wouldn't wouldn't listener probably wouldn't expect. I actually thought mobile home parks with something something totally different than it was so mobile home parks right now is subjected to a handful of quote unquote leaders who are perpetuating this same hype story that they're passive investments coupon clippers. You have a captive audience. They own their own home. Expensive the move so you know if you can't come up with auto box three hundred bucks peyrat. You're not gonna move your home right in affordable. Housing is is high demand so the and there's his mama pops cops everywhere looking to sell to you. Well it turns out not only is that not the case but also these are anything but coupon clippers they are really in some cases really hintz operational real estate holdings so first and foremost my first year was i was so hellbent on trying to be competitive headed by meals. I mean we started july of twenty fifteen. We closed on our first deal in september of sixteen so it took fourteen months to actually buy our first one on and that was not fair because i had no money to invest in it so i had to do for my i was i partnered up with one of the the thought leaders in the industry and he was he did everything. He said he was gonna do he gave me a great finders. Fee we cash the bulk of it out kept a little bit in so we can learn from them and developed cloud and confidence and then we bought our second one a few months later but it wasn't until we bought our third one and so here's how i kind of went fulltime. I realize that hats. I needed to go full time once i realized that my first studios were lucrative and everything's gonna be fine by the time i i got my third one. I realized i could pay myself this the salary to be the physical property manager in quit my job and then i could start calling brokers more calling owners more and doing a lot more direct outreach in networking and i gotta tell you my business exploded as soon as i quit went full time but here's the thing i made a major sacrifice. I literally lived in a mobile home or fourteen months every other week in atlanta and like you mentioned earlier. I live in charlotte so my wife hated it obviously because i was gone all the time and i took a massive haircut on my salary. I went from nearly a hundred grand a year or two thirty five without health insurance so i took a major cut in salary and i by the way i still will pay myself only thirty five thousand a year now. My balance sheet is totally different story but i only cash on purpose thirty five. I could do a whole lot more reason. Reason being is number one. I want capital reinvest but number two. I always want to feel that fire that i cannot quit because it's even you know it's just easier. When you see that money hit the bank account. It's easy to kind of get lackadaisical lethargic about what you're doing and the thing is that threat of going back to corporate america isn't as strong as only saying a little bit of money hit my main bank account so that's yeah that's a little bit. It's probably a little more than what you're at at the story there. Yeah i love that now. I don't know that i want to be disciplined enough to hold money back to to keep myself going but i love the fact that you do it and that you built your life around it because it is that you know burn the ships behind you mentality. If you can't turn to something else you will go forward and what we talked a little little bit before this just picking up. The phone is a whole lot easier once. You've done it but so many people are like yeah. I can't go back to that because i'm used to spend this amount of money i. I'm used to doing what i'm doing. It's scary out there yet. Ryan did it but you know. I'm not going to be able to find deals to make you know a ton of money. What what is it about once. You learned all right. Here's how you do a mobile park rights. You had to learn the skill set person and correct get you own like what nine thousand units eleven hundred units something like that jessica. What have you what what is it now when you pick up the phone when you find a deal what are sort of the mechanics that you learned around the business not necessarily early you know. How do you do the math but what is it now that you can see in a mobile home park because you've done several of them that tell you yes yes. This is a deal to go after wonderful question and i have what i what i'd like to take a wonderful answer to it because the game changing knowledge college that i have now if i get this question all the time. What do you wish you knew now. What do you wish you had known back then that you know now which is exactly the answer this question which is because i lived it because i know what it feels like to be a mobile home in the middle of the night in the middle of a thank dense powerful thunderstorm. I know it feels like on fourth of july. When kids are shooting fireworks off in the middle of the night and when little miss janice comes into the office has complaining you can say i know i also heard the fireworks. It was really i want my customers are thinking and feeling and i know what it's like to sell a home. I know what it's like to evict. Someone and i know what it's like. The post something on zillow in one state in one property in have fifty responses in twenty four hours and posted somewhere else and literally the only response from zillow is like the marketing ad from zillow team being like hey does want to let you know your ad still up and that's it and crickets because i have done all of that. You know i've seen debts collapse. I've seen people why i haven't seen it but i've had someone allegedly fall through the floor of a mobile because i've seen tons of things go wrong and tons of things go right right. My underwriting is fundamentally better because of it in excel. I can't remember who said this but it's brilliant. They said there's been more fiction written in microsoft excel than microsoft word. It's true because all microsoft microsoft excel is is it just calculating the math for you. It's it is deceptive. Confirmation bias and the truth of the matter is your your output is only as good as your input. Your performers are only as strong as your assumptions so i am glad i had no money to start out in no experience and no other option because by forcing myself to be my own operator i have learned some lessons that helped me look look at things totally differently and the reason why that is even more relevant is because especially like right now with a hot economy on me and low interest rates. Everyone in the world thinks mobile home parks are like a hot thing to get into a no one really knows how to do it. It's kind of wrestling. You're missing deals. There are deals right in front of your face that are screaming hot deals that you would only no are screaming hot deals because you fundamentally know what to look for and you cannot teach that in a book or at a training training course or listen to it on a podcast or hop on a call and learn that from someone. These are things that you just because i do it every day all day. I can drive through a mobile home. Pardon go bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-ba. I see a bunch of things and i know the market and within an hour or less. I already know what i want to offer. If i want to do it and you the only get that by being knee deep in what you're doing and to your point earlier. It doesn't matter if it's mobile home parks are are what type of business if you you fundamentally understand your biz. If you're a student of the game you are going to see things that others just aren't seeing seeing right in front of your face now that that's gold right there because i when i'm working with my clients when helping helping them grow their businesses. One of the big things i focus on is not what is the value of what you do you can go into a mobile home park and and you can put shrubbery here and you can fix the blacktop there and you can pretty it up like the those are the mechanics. That's what you do but the value received wjr by either the seller someone who wants to get out of it you know that or the value received more importantly by the mobile home tenant got into or owner that lives on your property if you know that everything else changes. It's a deal concept. If you know what keeps your prospect up at night more than they do then you'll never go hungry day right and you've learned that because if you live in the parks that that that you own and because you spend your time doing this and learning about it and reading about in our laser focused on mobile home parks. I want to ask you this. You know all this stuff and and you know how to operate a hawk but operating a business that has you know nine parks ended multiple investors who are either partners or lenders to you in in buying these parks arcs and running that business versus running parker very different things. How did you one when did that. Transition car when you knew you had to do do that and you had to think like a businessman rather than investor and to how do you do that every gay like what is your day like to do. Both of those things yes so that's an important point right. I'm an investor and a business person right so i have passive income coming in. If i step away from my business business it will work without me there because i have systems in place in employees in place that know what they're doing because trained them personally and i so for example when my son john was born i stepped away for about a month month and a half and anemia not i didn't grow the business to grow but it doesn't need let me to survive and thrive so that's it's an important distinction right. I'm not just investing in my own meals cheating passing from also growing my business making sure that it works now. That's another great question that i hate to say. Don't have an answer to <unk>. When was that moment where i kind of understood the difference. It's i wish i had taken a better journal of when certain things happen my business partner he he writes down things he learns every day we go back and pinpoint the exact moment he learned table lessons but i think that i kind of always intuitively knew so as a psychology major undergrad wanted to be a sales person in a car salesman men and that taught me negotiation persuasion marketing selling and i've always had a customer focus right and i kinda always knew that the best i guess intuitively knew that the best investors are also the best operators saw. Give you a great for example eve ryan men former c._e._o. Of a pepsi. I've sat down with him a few times. He's really active at wake forest university and i hit him mobile home parks <unk> just know what what a former fortune five hundred ceo would say not to try to get his investing dollars just out of sheer here out of state and i loved his answer. His answer was in so many eddie words. I don't know and it was the most gratifying. I don't know i one of the most gratifying i don't know ever because of the power behind his ability to say he to be humble enough to say. I don't know right in ultimately what i gleaned from that was he's with now that he's retired in a multimillionaire he investment things like convenience stores <unk> hinder fans business right if you are the zeo pepsi frito lay at he also is the ceo pizza hut so he he understands soda chips the works he understands the distribution. He understands that whole sales funnel from manufacturing bottling to shipping to the wholesalers to you literally the convenience stores that sell it it because he has extensive knowledge there. He's a better investor for that now. Obviously he's much older and he says decades of high level experiencing sits on the board of american express. Obviously he's a rock star. None of us are going to be that way and for me. I just i i to answer your question i was you can't really have that in build your business that takes time but what you can do is learn your business really in some <music> serious detailed while you're investing to another big reason why pay myself thirty five even though i make way more than that is because i can then be the an investor in my own business and so that way like this poverty on fingers crossed closing next thursday he did something pretty a similar he's selling his mobile home park to me and he is ten thirty one as significant a significant chunk of change so while he said thirty wanting a million dollars into something an l. p. fund that will give him a ten percent preferred return in other words. His million dollars will go in their tax tax free and he had almost sixty five years old. We'll have a passive hundred grand coming in no matter what he does and so he's he's going to be able to retire comfortably assuming the investment doesn't go bus but because he understands real estate now at his age now he has the capital so to speak he can now on best passively with limited liability into something. That's gonna give him an upper middle class lifestyle no matter what he does and he's a ton more money that he's gonna invest elsewhere and do other things. It's a work but ultimately the point is to be a very good investor. You need to understand that business as well but also you. You can't wait around for that. Especially something like. I didn't have any money so i i really can't be an investor. What am i going to go. Invest five thousand dollars in the stock market arquette like come on had to do both at the time and hopefully at. I'm thirty two years old now hopefully twenty years when i'm fifty two. I will no no about everything. I mean never know everything but i'm gonna know so much about this industry. Even though i know so much right now there's things i don't even know i don't know yet by that time. I will have hopefully a ton of capital in place to invest in what i know really really intimately well so for those of you who have started their own business or are about to mine. Advice is just learn your business so you can invest in your business and if you can do both at the same time all the better as you learn to disciplines at the same time i love that i just love the commitment and the understanding you have about if you know your things so well. The rest actually becomes easy so we're talking to ryanair's here on the entrepreneurs m._b._a. Podcast with adam fitness as i said a power texting dot com on the show give away a free trip to one listener goto podcast trip dot com and one person will win a trip <hes> it's super bowl seventeen locations around the world i four and five star hotels and ryan before we wrap up. We've got a few minutes left but you're you're talking about our job a chance to sit down with a former former c._e._o. Of patchy world raw worldwide multibillion dollar on multi hundred billion dollar brand but but you started knowing nobody like other than a few family friends. You didn't know people with money. You didn't know people of influence probably a lot of people listening that they'll ask this. I don't i'm not i'm not going to meet the c._e._o. C._e._o. pepsi. I'm not gonna have these multimillionaire friends calling a he's just blowing smoke but in reality. It's not that hard once you put yourself in the right situations. So how did you start on that path. There's no one says while somebody will do but you'd probably say. I wanna meet a c._e._o. Of a fortune five five hundred company you wanted to meet someone who could give you advice where where did that pass starch that put you in that position so i actually do have a specific answer to this. Tim is is for our <unk>. Tim ferriss for hour workweek. He says point blind in his book and it is a one hundred percent trump people high profile celebrities ace. You never would get in touch with our a lot easier to get in touch with anything. It's just that most people don't try and the folks that try a lot of times. <unk> are nutty fans that don't understand that you don't reach out to someone and and ask for their mercy or for something you try your best to to give them something and there's a significant chunk of folks that just wipe to talk and give out advice and what am i best friends is i literally just emailed him and i still have the email saved somewhere but he's multimillionaire time and time over and i just shot autumn an email in his one of his his number two guys c._e._o. And i were having lunch. Actually he brings it up. All the time now is like did. I don't know how you got in this guy's inner circle circle. You had nothing your grad school. Money is like i've never seen that in fifteen years of of of being this is right hand man and then i had you know for that one of someone like him or one of someone like steve ryan. There's ninety nine other people who who will never respond to you and i'll give you another good for example. We reset sam zell billionaire c._e._o. And he reached back out to us when this was when we were really <unk> were first starting at like four two years ago and we never called back because we we'd air's kinda like the dog chasing the mailman right where like oh can we get them. Oh my god we got him the now. I've sat in front of other other big time folks like christine duffy i._c._o. Carnival cruise lines you know <hes> <hes> rosalind brewer sam's club c._e._o. <unk> i've got in front of these folks and you know it's crazy about it. I also have gotten in front of people that are low on the totem pole. Janitors secretaries and i talked to anybody. I don't care if you'll never buy real estate are never do anything anything cool in your entire life or the c- over huge comedy i will talk to you and everybody in between you and so the best lessons i've learned in my life have actually not banned banned from <unk> out your door. It's been from folks that are on front lines who are seeing things and feeling things experiencing things and you'll just you have to look at the whole gamut because there's lessons to be learned at every step of the way you have to reach out to people and expect to get ghosted but still follow up anyway and expect to be rudely hung up on and told you're nothing and keep going. You have to do that because yes yeah. It's fair to be like okay. We'll ryan. Did this and that was lucky or this was i. I am a very lucky guy but at the same time i also reached out to hundreds of people who either there were very rude to me or just never responded today so it is to a certain degree of volume game. You just have to do it. You have a win and when when i haunt i and i ask every guest i ever have like. Why do you do this. Why do you go on august. Obviously exposures good in <hes>. It's cool to be interviewed. Who'd you wanna put out on social media but but his answer was i just wanna talk to more people because i don't know what i'm gonna learn and that's and you just set it right there. Are you don't really care. Who the people are you. Just wanna learn more and this is my final question and i always ask some some version of this to all my guests. It's if you're reaching out to somebody at a high level it should be y'all locked company. It could be just someone that you want to know. It should be someone in your in. St part is what what does the average person you know. What do i have to offer them that. They'd want to respond to my email run-up. You don't have the script an email force but a lot of people think that that's why they don't do it. So what is it that you can do. You gotta find way to pump a bullet value right so you're just asking someone for something. Why if you're on the street some walks up to you and says hey can. I have five dollars. What are you gonna do that. You're not gonna do that right. There's actually really fascinating study. Psychology guy is really fascinating. Study where they where they basically took took a control group of people in a line to make copies on a copy machine that literally just at the person in front of him said hey could i skip you and they took another group and said hey can. I skip you and just for it. Just gave a reason just or even like literally. There were just said hey. Can i skip you. I need to make copies and then i'm pretty sure they also did another group where they said hey. I'm in a rush. Can i help you and what they found is. Is those the groups performed. Sometimes we were just like yeah sure you can give me just because and the point there is that sometimes all you you need to do is just reach out. Just try even if you're a reason as is and then add a little reason to it reasons ridiculous even if you think it's silly or stupid but what i've realized is if you take that one step further and you add value there you know so for example steve ryan men. Would i realize nice about him is he loves teaching loves. It loves talking business loves having his mind challenged and so i've sat down with him twice and the first time i appeal to his please teach me in the second time i reached out to him. I was like i have a new business idea. Do you have time to sit down with me and go through this and each time he he loved it because it was valuable to him and i mean this is the dude who literally flies private jets go and sit on the board meeting of amex right and a ton of other ridiculous though he's retired right so my advice to you who is as you're reaching out to folks because i get reached out to all the time and i i. I'm sorry yes man. I love talking to people but a lot of times people will be like really wanna meet you face to face and i i would love to meet everyone face to face but a lot of times folks are like can i buy you coffee or bureau lunch. That's not like yeah. That's adding value but to me. It's easier just hop on the phone. 'cause here's a half hour but we're done whereas if i drive away their sit down right. That's a bigger commitment. It's not that i don't do that. Is that if you were to come and bring some value like hey. I have experienced in south storage. I'd like to share war stories all of a sudden. That's something valuable. Hey i have twenty years in the debt industry. I know how we underwrite at how banks certain smaller to medium size banks think about certain. Thanks rate that all of a sudden is something valuable that i can learn or hey. I happen to know the guys who do this. Podcast right. Are i can introduce you to this great. If you reach out to someone beyond just like hey can. I buy a cup of coffee and even sometimes it's as simple as hey. I love your book. I loved your podcast. I would love to ask ask you some real specific questions for example x._y._z. Would you be open to teaching someone for a half hour. Even that someone like me son of a college professor i loved lobbed teach-in. I'd love to lawrence. That's appealing to the what's in it for me so as you're reaching out to c._e._o.'s or celebrities or anyone in between think about what is is it that they would go <hes> even if i liked teaching in like learning. I'll actually go way out of my way to go have a cup of coffee with you. Because there's something there i don't have that i can glean from this however small and even just added asking a reason. Hey can i skip you. I need to make coffees. Even that is better than just saying hey can. I have you aw even just giving a reason. Even if it's stupid scientifically has been proven to be a vacuum. That's awesome. Great great point is we. We don't always know what people's reasons are but you have to give one right and and and people will will usually gladly adult give you their time or their information or their effort. We just need to ask ryan. I really appreciate the conversation was a lot of fun on just learning more about your process how you get it and the things that you've learned a very young age while getting beaten up a little bit along the way but you've just continued to learn thanks for being gene are really appreciate your knowledge and your time i was honored at it was a blast. Thank you very cool and thanks everyone for listening to today's episode of the entrepreneurs m._b._a. V._a. podcast with adam kipness ford out. Y'all an excellent thanks. You've been listening to the entrepreneurs m._b._a. Hey download adams. Free book probably make more money in your business at w._w._w. Dot free book from adam dot com.

steve ryan adam kipness Tim ferriss charlotte pepsi salesman america business owner professor north carolina zillow eddie basketball chris paul microsoft wake forest university boston
Staying True to Your Marriage (Part 2 of 2)

Focus On the Family Daily Broadcast

28:41 min | 1 year ago

Staying True to Your Marriage (Part 2 of 2)

"What does it mean to be a man, a real man in his new book rise of the servant kings, former LAPD officer, and promise keepers chairman, Ken Harrison shares that real men are designed to be proactive, courageous and humble not passive fearful or era, Ghent rise of the servant kings equips men to confidently step into their marriages families work and friendships with newfound strength, as they embrace God's true plan for their lives available wherever books are sold rise of the servant kings dot com. Eddie felt unlovable by God and everyone else, even his wife until he heard our broadcast. I wanna say that I'm thankful for focus on the family because you were there for me during a desperate time in my marriage. I'm Jim Daly, imagine how many more marriages, God can save through your support a focus on the family today. Please call eight hundred the letter A in the word fan. Family, that's eight hundred a family. Have you ever tried this sitting on the couch with the TV all looking at each? It can be scary at first and talking to each other. Well for some of us sitting face to face, and actually talking with her spouse, that can be really scary, but we'll hear why it's important to try doing that. Thanks for joining us today for focus on the family. Your host is focused president, Jim Daly. And I'm John Fuller, John. We're listening to great presentation from Dr Gary Chapman from his DVD series called the marriage. You've always wanted and less time Dr Chapman, talked about how infatuation what he calls the tingles can lead a person into an affair, and that can start with seemingly, innocent conversations with someone near attracted to maybe at work at Dr Chapman, also challenged us in our marriages to show biblical love to one another using that famous passage from the New Testament I current the it's thirteen. Starting at verse four and I'm paraphrasing love is patient, kind humble courteous, not selfish. Not quick to take offense and not intent on being score in with that here. Now, Dr Gary Chapman on focus on the family. Love is on selfish. Love does things not because you necessarily enjoy doing them. Let's you do them because, you know, they're beneficial for them. This is really the heart of love. It's a willingness to give and do for the benefit of the other person. Not for what you're getting out on it for what they're getting out of it. It's the same kind of love that God gave us when he reached out to us not, because we were good. But because he is good. Now, let me come back to the emotional aspect of love because there is an emotional aspect. We are emotional creatures, I believe, because we're made in God's image, and you'll read of God, all the human emotions or are in God and center, the scene in us, and we do have an emotional need to feel up. If you feel by the significant people in your life like is pretty beautiful. But if you don't feel life to look pretty dark. I like to picture inside every child. There's an emotional love tank. If the love tank is full that is the child, genuinely feels love by the parents, the child grows up normally, but if a love tank is empty and the child is not feel about the parents, the child grows up with many internal struggles. And in the teenage years is likely to go looking for love in all the wrong places, but I believe that adults also have a love tank, and if a loved tankers full that is you genuinely feel about your spouse, then life is good. But if the love Tyke is empty, and you feel like they don't love me. They wish they weren't married to me. Life can begin to look pretty dark. You see the person who has an empty love tank will be far more tempted at the coffee pot than the person who has a full of tank. The doesn't excuse them just because they have an empty love thing, doesn't excuse their behavior if they on the tingles. But what I'm saying is, if we can learn how to keep each other's love, tank, full after we come down off a high of the inland experience. Then we're creating an emotional bond between the two of us that's going to affect everything else. We do how we process conflict and everything else, what I discovered years ago, is that what makes one person doesn't like another person feel that and this is where we'd get into trouble. I remember she said him off duck. We don't have any money problems. And we don't argue. She said, but I just don't feel in love coming from a husband like roommates in the same house. Well looked over at him. And he said, I don't understand her. I do everything I know to show that I love her, and she says she doesn't feel that I said, well, what do you do? He said, well, I get home from work before she does. So I started evening meal, he should after it's over. He said, anomaly wash the dishes and he said, I help her with the laundry and I do the vacuuming and I watched the car every Saturday, and I'm oh, the grass, Henry, and he went on, I was beginning to wonder what does this woman do? Sounds to me like he was doing everything. And he said, I'll do all these things show her that I love her. She sits there and says she doesn't feel that'd be seduction. I don't know what else to do. I looked back at her, and she said he's right. He's a hard work in my head, and then she started, crying inaugural. We don't ever talk. We talked to thirty years. You understand what's going on a sincere man who is loving his wife, but she's not getting it because he's not speaking in her language. So what I discovered is that there's mentally five ways to express love, emotionally, I want to I call them the five languages. I want to share them with you briefly. I mean if you've read the book, this'll be a review for you. If you haven't, it'll be an introduction for you. Love language. Number one, we've already talked about in that is words for Mason. Using words to affirm the other person, I won't be labor at this point. But I will illustrate it my wife and I were visiting our daughter and our son in law, and our grandchildren. If I'm going to be totally honest, I would have to say, we were visiting our grandchildren, and the parents happened to be at home. But at any, right? After dinner that night. Our son in law took the trash outside. And when he came back in the house are daughter said to him. John, thanks for taking the trash out. And inside said, go girl. You see, I can't tell you how many men have been in my office over the last thirty years and said to me, I don't ever hear any words appreciation, I can do all kinds of things. I never hear any words of appreciation if she says anything, she's critical about something I didn't do. And I can't tell you how many wives I've said this thing I give it all I've got every day he acts like I'm not even here you understand why the book of proverbs would say life and death are in the power of the tongue. You can kill your spouse. But you can give them life, by the way you talk to. Now, I mentioned earlier, I met a lady who said to me, she said, I know it would be good if I could give him positive words, she said, but honestly, I can't think of anything good to say about it. And I said, well, does he ever take shower? And she said, well, yes, I'll say, well, how often she said. Well, every day I said, if I were you start there? Appreciate you taking a show. I said, they're men who don't. Of never met a man, or a woman that you couldn't find something. Good to say about it. Love language. Number two is gifts. My academic background is an through policy. After going to moody bible institute, I went to college major anthropology later. I did a master's degree in anthropology. Wake Forest university. We have never discovered a culture anywhere in the world, where gift giving is not an expression of love. Get universal to give gifts. The gifts says he was thinking about me. She was thinking about me, look what they got from me. Now, the gifts need not be expensive. Haven't we always say is the thought that counts but I relented you. It's not the thought lift in your head counts. It's the gift that came out of a phone in your, you know, guys, you can get flowers free for probably four or five months of the year. Just go out and your backyard and pick one. That's what you kids do. How many mothers have ever received a dandelions from your kids? Yeah. Now guys, I'm not suggesting dandelions. Okay. You don't have any flowers in your backyard. Your neighbors, y'all. They'll give you a flower. Gifts. Number three is acts of service. Doing something for the other person that you know, they would like for you to do. Such things as washing dishes, cooking meals backing floors walking. The dog changing the baby's diaper, who big act of service anything that, you know, the other person would like for you to do number four spending quality, time, giving them your undivided attention. I do not mean sitting on the couch watching television, someone else has your attention. I'm talking about sitting on the couch with the TV off looking at each other and talk into each other. Do you all have couches? What do you do with those things have you ever tried this sitting on the couch with the TV off looking at each? It can be scary at first and talking to each other powerful communicate or taking a walk down the road. Just the two of you and talk. You are going out to eat, assuming you talk to each other. It's an have you ever noticed in a restaurant, you can almost always tell the difference between dating couples and married couples dating couples look at each other and talk married. Couples sit there and eat. You see if I sit on the couch with my wife and give her twenty minutes, looking listening interacting, I have given her twenty minutes of my life, and she has done the same for me. It's a powerful communicator, when you give someone your undivided attention number five is physical touch. We've long known the emotional power of physical touch. That's why we pick up babies and hold him and cuddle them and kiss them and say, all those silly words and logical full that baby understands the meaning of the word love, the baby feels love by physical touch now in marriage. I'm talking about such things as holding hands. Arm around the shoulder. I'm talking about driving down the road. You put your hand on their leg. I'm talking about kissing. I'm talking about embracing. I'm talking about the whole sexual part of the marriage. Physical touch is a powerful communicator out of those five love languages, each of us married or single young or old each of us has a primary love language. One of the five speaks more deeply to see motionlessly than the other four. Now we can receive love and all five languages. But if you had to give up one you'd give up this one or this one, but not this one, this is the one that really makes you feel out. It's very similar to spoken language. Everyone of us grew up speaking, a language with a dialect. I grew up speaking English southern style. But everyone grows up speaking a language with a dialect, and that's the one you understand best. The same thing is true with love. It's not that you don't appreciate the others is just that one speaks more deeply to you than the others that your primary language. You're listening to Dr Gary Chapman on focus on the family and just a quick reminder. Get his book, the marriage. You've always wanted when you make a donation of any amount to focus on the family today. Our number eight hundred the letter A and the word family, or you can donate and request that book at focus on the family dot com slash broadcast. Let's go ahead and return now to more from Dr Gary Chapman. In a marriage almost never does a husband and wife have the same love language. It happens but not very often. And even if a have the same language, they'll have different dialects within the lane JR. And by nature we speak our own language. Whatever makes me feel. Is what I will do for my spouse. So if my love language, is words of affirmation, if that's what makes me feel, what will I do. When I get married, I'll give my wife or formation. I'll tell her how good look and she is. I'll tell what, how nice she looks in that outfit I will express appreciation to her. I'll probably tell her that. I love her doesn't times a day. It just it's just natural. You know, I love you. But if, if words is not her love language? Let's say acts of services her love language, but I don't ever do anything to help her. It's just a matter of time. She's going to say to me, one night, you know, you keep on saying, I love you live you, I love you. If you love me, why don't you help me? And I will be blown out of the saddle because in my mind, I've been loving her. But in her mind, I have not been living her. So the key is we have to learn to speak, the language of the other person. Now, someone says Gary okay, but wait a minute. What if the love language of your spouse is something that just doesn't come natural for you and my answer? So you learn it, my wife's laying, which is acts of service. Okay. One of the things I do for her is back in the floors. Now, you don't know me, well, but I wanna ask you, do you think that back in floors comes natural for me? My mother lately, vacuum floors, all through junior high and high school. I couldn't go play ball on Saturday until I vacuum house in those days, I said to myself if I ever get out of here. One thing I'm not going to do. I am not going back inflow. You couldn't pay you enough to back and floors. There's only one reason I've in floors. L O the, you see if it doesn't come natural. It's a greater expression of love. My wife knows everytime. I've back in the four. It's nothing but one hundred percent pure unadulterated love, and I get credit for the whole thing. You understand what I'm saying? You know what I believe I believe there are literally thousands of couples who are sincere. In their minds. They are loving each other, but they're not connecting and they live with an empty love tank and because of that the conflicts get bigger and look darker, and if they don't ever learn to connect with each other and solve those conflicts, then they live. They don't have what God intended marriage to be deeply intimate. Loving supportive, caring relationship you understand why would say that. What I just shared with you could literally save thousands of marriages. Every week. People say they DACA chat. We were that close to divorce and somebody gave us your book on the five love languages. It's like lights came on and we tried it totally changed. The whole planet of our marriage is because the need for love is so deep within us. And if you're married, the personally would most like to love you is your spouse, and when that need is mad, and you feel that they love you and you, you and particularly if you know, it's not their language, and they're, they're really working doing this. It feels the love tank, and then all the rest of life is process much easier. Now, I wanna give you when I believe, is the greatest challenge. You'll ever here comes from the words of Jesus, listen to these words. If you love those who love you. What reward have you? Not even the tax collectors through the sign put that into marriage. If you love your wife and your wife is loving you big deal. Anyone can love a lovely woman. Now, listen to this. But I say to you love your enemies. Anybody got a husband that qualifies. Bless those who curse you, your spouse comes home and curses, you, you just start him say bless you, my dear, I didn't say it. I wouldn't even thought it. Do good to those who hate you. Your spouse tells you, they hate you found something good. Do it for them pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute, you, you feel used price. And I don't think he means pray that the wrath of God will fall on their head. Loves ultimate demand is to love the lovely. Now folks, I don't have to tell you that there's a lot of unlovely people in the world. I'm talking about harsh mean cruel self-centered brazen people in the world. And most of them are married. Have you not met people and wondered how they got married? Have you not met people and felt sorry for their spouse? Have you not met people and thought to yourself, and to think somebody has to live with them? I'm telling you folks, some people have a hard life, and they live with very unlovely people. The greatest challenge you will ever get anyone is the love and unlovely spouse. I could give you scores and scores of stories, I'll give you only one lady showed up at mouth is she walked in? And she said, I don't know you and you don't know me, I'm on my way downtown to the attorney's office, and I'm going to sort the papers to get a divorce my husband, she's been married for twenty years. And she said absolutely utterly miserable. I say, well, tell me your story. She said, well, my husband is a mechanic as a time job. And then he has a little shop in the backyard where he works on cars at night. She said he works every night of the week after dinner. He goes out there and work. So ten o'clock, except Thursdays Thursday, she said he goes, and, and drinks with his buddies. Is it doesn't get drunk, but he goes out on Thursday with buddies? She said expects me to have all of these meals. Ready? Expects me keep his clothes clean, and expects me to have sex with him whenever he wants to. She said there's nothing coming back. My way is just totally give give give. And she said, I've done it for twenty years. And I just don't think I can go on now say, well, I'm very pathetic with what you're saying, and I can certainly understand how you would feel what you're feeling now. So, but since you're here, let me share some things with. So I shared with among other things. I shared the concept of the love tank and the love languages. And then we speak different love languages, and I've said, it's pretty obvious to me that your love tank is empty. And she said my love tank, she's not thinking it's got holes in it everywhere. And I said, I don't know. But my guess is that your husband might not feel lot of either. I said, well, would you be willing to doing experiment with me? If you're not considered here and talk and figure out what what your husband's love language is would you be willing to with the help of God to try to speak, his language, at least once a week for the next six months, unless just see what happens. She said, well. I guess I could do that. I said, well, it's your choice. You know, I said, look at it this way, if six months now, you still want to go to the attorney you can still do that. But would you be willing to try this and see what happens and she agree? So she went home, and she spoke, his love language, the first four weeks. There was nothing. He didn't say a single word. But at the end of four weeks, he said to her what's going on with you? She said, what do you mean? He said, well, you've been off nice to me lately. And she said, well, if you want to know the truth, I'm going over there to that church. And I'm trying to get some counseling on how to be a better why he's on new song was going on. And he stormed off three or four more weeks went by he was silent. And then he came back after three or four weeks. And he said to her, I don't know what you're trying, but it's not gonna work and she said, what do you mean? He said, well, you know what on the he said, you, do you've been often I slightly, so. But didn't gonna work because you might as well stop. It's not gonna work well, three or four more weeks. He didn't say anything then he came back one night. And he said. I don't know what you're trying, not fair. She said, what do you mean? He said, well, you know, I'm not much of a husband, you know, I don't deserve what you've been doing for me. The next week, he said to her one night. It's I can do for you. She said, well, if you like, and she told him something he did before he went out to work. He did it after dinner. And the next week he asked her, again anything to do to help you. And he started doing that. You understand what's happening. She's teaching him how to speak her love language. He doesn't even know what's going on. He's responding to her love. If all the six months was over, she said to me document, I never would have believed that I could have loved feelings for my husband again. But I do. She said, it's obviously, he's trying these reaching out to me these responding to me. I've never met the million. But people who go to his shop tell me that he said, well, I'm telling you, that man is miracle worker. He said, sent me a woman over there, a man chains but woman. Not exactly what happened. And without the help of God, you're not likely to do this because by nature, we love the people that love us. But with the help of God, we can love spouse, who's very unlovely, and there's nothing more powerful you can do then the love. And I love the spouse. I cannot guarantee you that every time the personal eventually reciprocate. I can't guarantee that. Because look, they're still people spitting, God's face, even when God is good to them. So I can't guarantee that. I'm just saying, I don't know anything more powerful that you can do to influence a spouse than to love them and the right. Love language, no matter how they're treating you and to do it over a long extended period of time. I can't tell you that many, many people I've seen it again. And again, and again, will melt long before the six months is over and began to reach out to you. Give me probably. Our father. Thank you, that you love us, and that you loved us when we were on lively. And you know, we're all of us are in our journey. You know, the quality of our marriage help us father to understand our responsibility, teach us how to love each other. I this for your glory pray this hour did in the nine of cost. What an encouraging way to end this presentation called the marriage. You've always wanted from Dr Gary Chapman, on focus on the family, John. I really appreciate your point right at the end there. His final story illustrated. It takes time and effort to save a marriage. So often we reach a breaking point our relationship, and we want a quick fix but that's just not realistic. And if you can think back to why you married your spouse in the first place, what you loved about them when you were dating you can find the motivation to work on your marriage and get some help. Let me remind you that our hope restored marriage intensive are incredibly effective, in fact, when we interview couples at the end of their stay ninety five percents say they truly believe the intensive will make a big difference in their marriage in two years later, four out of five couples are still happily married. That is a very. Significant number. And let me say thank you to our financial supporters. You are helping us save marriages, our research shows that over six hundred thousand couples say focus on the family has helped them improve their marriage, sometime over the last twelve months, man that is exciting, John. Here's a great example from Amanda in Missouri. We have four children, where which are very young. We were struggling in our marriage financially fiercely just about every part of our life. And it was hard to go for support because people around us their marriages were failing to it's been about a year now since I've been listening to focus on the family on a daily basis, and it's given me so many good tools on how to fix me and thought worrying about trying to fix him. I'm pretty sure we would probably be already at a divorce lawyer if I hadn't found that app and been able to listen to it every single day. It's probably the. Best thing that's happened to me and for our marriage. So I really, really greatly appreciate this ministry. I love hearing stories like that. Somebody tunes in gets the encouragement they need to do the hard thing, the right thing. It's amazing to think about how many more people Jim, we can reach if we had more people donating. That's so true, John and that's why we're making this appeal to you, our listeners if hearing the ideas in this program makes your marriage better, like did for Amanda or helps you in your parenting, can you please give today? When you make a donation of any amount, we'll say thank you by sending you doctor Chapman's book, which includes today's content, and much much more. The title again, is the marriage, you've always wanted, donate, and request that book. We'll have the details in the episode notes or you can call us our number's eight hundred eight family. We'll next time doctor Meg meeker explains the critical role, a mom plays in her son. Life. So we're the ones who teach our young boys that women can be relied upon that women can be nurtures that women are compassionate. And we will be there for people. We are the comfort on behalf of gym daily in the entire team. Thanks for listening to this focus on the family podcast. Take a moment. Please and show this episode with a friend and leave a renting for us. That's very helpful. Thanks. I'm John Fuller and we'll see here next time as we once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

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Serious Sleep Hack for People Who Need Quality Sleep

A Healthy Bite - ThatOrganicMom

39:29 min | 9 months ago

Serious Sleep Hack for People Who Need Quality Sleep

"Welcome to a healthy bite. Your one nibble closer to a more satisfying way of life. A healthier you and bite size. Bits of Elsie motivation. Now let's dig in the dish with Rebecca huff. Hey It's Rebecca today I'm here with Terr- youngblood the creator of something that has radically changed my life and we're going to talk a little bit about how a sleek and change your life and that is has a hydroponic mattress pad so there's two different kinds but before we get into that Tara. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came up with the idea India for a chilly pad yet. So the genesis routine pat is actually My husband and I slept at different temperatures and and he was always really hot For years I would put Perot's between us to in order to sort of separate out the heat. Not Get too overheated did especially when I was pregnant with our boys it was two years in the bed in it was a manageable so in two thousand seven. We decided that there is dual control seats. Eighteen your car for temperature. There should be controls in your bed in that was really the Genesis of the chilly pad. We found out afterwards is that there's a lot more science science about temperature in sleep than just making you more comfortable so although it started as just a thermostat adjustment so that we didn't overheat what it does here sleep states and when it does the overall sleep health is pretty impactful as well. So it's kind of it's been a fun journey to discover end really learn. Learn more about sleep. That's really where my passion came from. Liz Whistles gotta be more magical than just we started out thinking it would be and tell me about your background your educational national background all right so as a little girl. I wanted to be a physicist and astrophysicist Super Super Geeky but You know those Astronauts that would go to Mars. I was I was thinking I grew up and go to Mars I didn't end up going to Mars. I did go to school for Physics and Engineering and so I have applied those engineering skills to building products. Like the Chili Pride But it's really become sleep is the focus on the sort of scientific approach to sleep has been applied from that sort of physics knowledge And maybe someday they'll use chilly pads in the march. I thought it was interesting. Just where you're coming from with creating the chilly pad which I think is genius. Nya So he was hot and you in. You're cold yes okay. I'm always hot and so I'm just like Oh. My goodness is their way to cool off so my mom is always cold in bed and she for years has used an electric blanket which I have told her. That's not healthy healthy. So do you have an opinion of why people should use the Chili Pat and still instead of an electric blanket. Yes Act where the physics of of all those different. Em Fs and electronic and magnetic signals that go through our lives is definitely a big part of our passion. That's we get the question of even why we don't have sleep. Trackers built into the PAN and there will be eventually but only when they don't give off any ems for the reason of electric blankets. Let's give off. Em Absent wanted. Math is is an electro magnetic field so anytime you have an electron which is at smallest piece of electricity and anytime it moves. It's actually generates a magnetic field And obviously the strength that depends on how many electrons you have in that string and and how close they are together and you know the changes in size when you have an electric blanket. You actually have those electrons going through your bed while you're sleeping and the combination of those two things we have. Ems sner live from our phones for Electronics and in her house news a lot of dirty electricity but at night. When you're asleep is is really a sacred time for your body to heal and recover from your day and we really really more and minimize the effect of the At night so as much as we can't always control our day if we can you know a lot of people are now putting their WIFI signals even on timers. They're not on during at night. There's lots of ways to work on Kinda cleanup some dirty electricity. That just exists. But we certainly don't I wanna add heating or cooling with em APPs as part of that equation into our beds when at all possible And Electric blankets gets heating pads all of those because they use those coils of heating. That's what they they do We quilt but they have water in them doesn't give off any says. The water moves round right. So what you're laying on instead of Coils that have electricity running through them. You're you're basically laying on a mattress pad for those of you who don't really know yet. What actually PAT is? It's basically a mattress pad with Tubes that water runs through and the water you're is either cooled or heated and it's amazing. How much of a difference it makes so when I first purchased mine I thought okay? I'm going to have this set on the lowest setting being all the time so I can stay nice and cool in bed and I also WanNa talk about another reason why we might want to turn the To leap pad down to the cooler temperatures at night but I thought that I would always keep it on cool but then it's winter in even though I tend to be On the hotter side I found that I like to turn it up as high as it would go before I get into bed and then as soon as I get in bed turn it down as low as it will go so by the time I fall asleep. It's like dipping down into the lower temperatures and I know that lure you can program at right to change temperatures at certain times yet and that's one of the reasons why we did did that with lower is the more research I did about sleep. and matching sleep to your krona type incur. Type is really just offense. Way of talking about your biological tickle clock so we all have this Rhythm that exists in our body in our core body temperature goes up up and down a roller coaster based on the governing of this clock clock end the most commonly referred to it as like morning person or night owl when it comes to sleep but your genes actually sort of govern which one of those are going to be in it's kind of predetermined And if you base your day And that includes when you eat in when you go to sleep and you know all all of your major bodily functions can all kind of be mapped this body clock. The one that we really en- trained our product to is obviously temperature sure And the neat part about it is when you think about the fact that human beings evolved to mostly sleep outside. We've had shelter for a long time. I am but we haven't had regulated heating and cooling systems in our homes only in the very recent past so our bodies evolved to mimic what happens outside with that temperature so our peak temperature of our human bodies is right after dinner about depending on when you eat and then income there and actually starts going down to your lowest point which is about the middle of the night so one of the ways. I've broken up tonight and I get teased about my a bucket of sleep but The farm girl the Mama four boys buckets and bins are the sorts of a lot of things in my life. And we're not sure what to put. It gets organized in bins and buckets. So sleep obviously it also gets organized into bins and buckets so You know your bedtime bucket when you talked about having a temperature that feels right to fall asleep pat. Even that's not what happens in the middle of night is actually make sense according to the prototype and yours or Kadian rhythm And your body's looking for a change so there is actually something called asleep switch where your neurons are flipped. Just just like you would flip a light switch which is crazy when you think about it that you can turn on sleep and turn off sleep but if you time a change of temperature into that right window for your body. That's exactly what you get to do. You get to flip that switch and the same goes when you wake up in the morning if you wake up in the right window and and at the right temperature you actually get to flip that switch off in that also helps you wake up is when you flip that switch your neurons say. Oh it's time for bed. He can release Melatonin in all of these hormones. Sounds say okay. Now you're bonding to do the following things in it starts settling in to help go to sleep. Let's reasons why warming up as you go to bed. It is. It's just fine. It's great I like to do it too. I liked to climb into a warm bed especially in the wintertime. And get my toes worm. And that'll help you fall asleep. And SORTA should reduce that time of tossing and turning but then once he fall asleep. The next bucket of sleep is really deep sleep so if we start with the bucket asleep the first one would be eight. Bedtime buckets and the most important part about bedtime bucket is about a change of temperature so right now in our daily lives because of that constant heating and air conditioning conditioning. We set that temperature. It's about the same for summer winter. It's about the same throughout the whole day but our body is looking for a change of temperature and we'll meet change that temperature of of about ten degrees. It triggers our brain to flip the sleep sleep switch and that sleep which releases Melatonin and hormones. That all kind of help plus fall asleep faster and help us stay asleep. So it's important to actually flip that switch during the right time for your body and with a change of temperature. Let's Kinda bedtime bucket but the next bucket really wants it colder. That's your deep sleep bucket and although you go through the whole night in various sort of up and down rhythms of all of you're different sleep states have remm sleep and sleep in deep sleep that first half of the night when your body temperature is dropping to its lowest point is absolutely a deep sea sleep zone And it wants it cooler because your body wants to your core body temperature all the way on the inside your heart and lungs those core elements all Wanna get colder in the easiest. She s way for that. Is your environment also getting colder or it's colder in that time so it can give off heat and that's where the beauty of the chilly pad is than pulling the heat off because a lot of people wake up in the middle and I use the restroom and say why you how to use the restroom. But if you're in deep sleep your body actually puts off a hormone that prevents you from going to the bathroom room and prevents you that urge and the other thing that can sabotage out a little bit. Alcohol also can affect that release of that hormone but if you're in deep sleep and you're cold you shouldn't wake up so your body really wants to be it's cold as possible during that time and then the second half of the night is much more focused on Ram. Am Cycles and that's where your body is actually starting to warm back up out of that dip and when you time that to be a little warmer and this is where the programming and the scheduling that you talked about with large important because then you can schedule those different blocks of time to match your Chroma type. And when you do be a little warmer for Ram sleep intellectually flip got switch off off and when you flip that switch off you're gonNA different recent hormone cortisol. You get to wake up in the morning. You don't need that caffeine as much because Caffeine Athena's basically triggering those same hormones but if you can do it naturally with temperature like the sun would be rising up over the planet warming it out. That's what your body's looking for and when you more up it's different. It's a totally different way to warm up. And so you're actually uses a warm way alarm has when you heat up like that. Your body's like Boone. ooh I'm awake. I flipped off the switch. No longer sleeping. I'm now in a way I love that so at because I cannot stand an alarm and I haven't might use one for decades can't stand it and I don't like it when my husband uses an alarm just the sound of it. It's like electrifying. It's like being you know. It's like getting awakened by an electrical shock. Almost I hate that feeling so between using the warm up the And maybe Have you heard of the alarm clocks that light up at in the morning so I think that will be much gentler way to wake up. I love that so much I have a chilly pad. So I don't I don't have the control but I automatically an early bird and so I wake up like at four thirty or five o'clock anyways but I do like what you said and I'm very curious about this so if your body is staying cooler you said your body's releasing a hormone that kind of tells you you don't you don't need to go to the bathroom right now. Yeah it's as a Mazel Hormone literally Eighty eight as house usually abbreviated but it does release that as part of being or deep sleep cycle and when you're in that deep sleep zone and you're cool enough. You really shouldn't wake up now. Obviously once you get into a little more of the geriatric age you're sixty five seventy now. Look there are some other things that are happening in your body as far as going to the bathroom. So that doesn't prohibit that but even for someone in that age range you're going to have less episodes of that so That's one of the benefits of no matter. What your age if you can get better deep sleep That'll help keep you asleep longer. Whereas deep sleep goes away as we age? The things that we have now are attaching to Alzheimer's and a lot of chronic diseases of the elderly is a lack of deep sleep So you may start out the twenty and you're getting twenty percent or two hours of that eight hour Recommended Window by the time you're eighty it may only be seven minutes or not not at all depending on what other disease markers you have and deep sleep is when our brains Get washed the toxins build up during the day we while memories. Marie is we fixed. Dna All those things that are the anti aging parts happened during each sleep and so for not getting. It's it's a really big factor in feeling feeling exhausted and worn down and that's why a lot of times people who are sleep deprived we'll have brain fog and lack of concentration which choose another reason why they say that sleep deprivation once it goes past a certain point. It's like driving drunk. Yes yeah and actually. It's a big part of my story personally is I always been a chronic INSOMNIAC When we lost our youngest I son very suddenly I had you know the grief and depression? That went with that. I got literally zero sleep and I do sort of attribute that I spent a year basically basically the equivalent of being drunk all the time and if I was actually drunk you know someone would have pulled me aside and said Oh my gosh you need to go to rehab you know someone of intervening dry and and Sleep is one of those things that is just as bad but we haven't as a society. We've accepted the fact that being sleep deprived that is almost a badge of honor verses Something that should be really looked at and treated on more carefully And certainly when it comes to any sort in a mental illness or depression it it only feeds that every single mental illness every single one one hundred percent of them all have asleep lack of sleep or sleep deprivation Bachchan With it it's it's all attached on. We can't have a good mental state without sleep. That's so true and if you go without sleep for any period of time you will quickly realize how important it is to your mental health But I want to switch tracks a little bit Other than and What we've already talked about and obviously the comfort of having your bed warm or cool to your preference water? Some health benefits of of being able to sleep cooler like lowering the temperature of your bed at night. Yeah so well this year. Everybody's talking about their latest diet or our exercise phase and I really feel like Sleeping Cooler has benefits to all of that. Some of it's the mental state factor of. I'm getting good deep sleep If you get better deep sleep your exercise efforts are basically doubled because your body can recover and heal better If you're doing a diet you're actually eat. Four hundred fifty less calories on average by getting a good night's sleep and if that sleep is colder egner getting deep sleep you can actually bump that number up significantly Because that cooler temperature during deep sleep you actually some of that ground round fat gets Expected in your metabolism gets affected. And everyone's like ooh awesome so I can sleep myself skinny. Yes sort of there. There's no silver bullet to losing weight. I wish there was. I would have like invented or like. I don't know what I would have done but there is no secret sauce. But there is ways to the amplify your efforts and to put it in cooling at night is definitely one of those factors. That is going to amplify what you're doing if you're taking a new Approach to Hopi Living. It's amplify is specially that deep sleep time because that's when our body is repairing DNA Dan. It's putting the effort in that deep sleep time so getting cold enough to get really good deep sleep into hit. That two hour window is really important for all of those helpful efforts that we put in we like to focus on the New Year for some reason right. Yeah well it's a fresh start and we think of this year I'm really GonNa do it so I think Another maybe not a health benefit but I feel like it's almost a help like pack of some sort but like so for women with menopausal symptoms. How can this affect them? Yeah so that one's runs a huge Pet Project we're actually in the middle of clinical trial with Wake Forest University on that There have been other studies that we're basically verify. The the effects for Menopausal hot flashes again are half the testimony to sleep and appetite testimony cooling If you don't have hot flashes at night would you do if you're staying. Cool in your body doesn't overheat. You don't wake up and you get better sleep. You actually get less hot. Flashes overall almost fifty percent reduction on your whole twenty four hour period versus versus just the night so that almost eliminates midnight. But you actually find you have less during the day in. That's part of just getting good. Sleep fixes a lot of those hormone roller rollercoaster That's where it talks to the testimony of just the power of sleep to minimize symptoms in our lives of any chronic or ongoing amidst or disease. Aziz sleep is just amazing what it does so event cooling mitigate those symptoms there's a lot of people with night sweats or hot flashes that let's aren't related to menopause a good friend of mine. She's become a good friend. I met last year around this time and She was getting basically the equivalent hot flashes. Since the birth of a second child she had gone through all sorts of hormone testing talk to her doctor or gynecologist. Lots of different people about trying to fix this problem problem and all of them came back while your hormones are normally must be okay must be just fine but she literally every single night had the equivalent of a hot flash an episode so still put off down all the towels and things that other women with hot flashes due to try to manage that had to change her clothes and then she'd go back to bed For ten years I and so just the power of changing. That is really amazing I think the side effect that she he is a great example of is when she wasn't sleeping through the night she would put off going to sleep. She would go to bed after as late as she could because she felt like she wasn't successful. Stocks will add sleep and I think this is the biggest side effect about chilly. Pad is when you can be successful at something and it feels easy and repeatable beatable you treated differently than something you feel like. You're not good at so she once she was able to start sleeping through the night and it was an immediate fix. The first I know she's like well. Maybe that was just a fluke. And then you know within three nights nope it's not a fluke and then she traveled fairmount for her job as a salesperson. So she she went in you know. Within the second night of the hotel there was some carryover effective fixing it but then like after two or three nights on the road than some of those symptoms would occasionally usually come back and she's like no. It's definitely just as chilly pad. But now she goes to sleep more like nine or ten o'clock at night. She settles into her bed. She does do the Karma to fall asleep and when she does that she gets that much more sleep she gets a better deep sleep zone. Because your body is definitely geared geared towards this this year clock in this is your window and if you don't start sleeping until midnight and your window really is supposed to start at and if you're just missing out on those two hours of deep sleep window it doesn't like extend the window it just shortens the window when she can get that deep sleep So it changes your entire sleep sleep parameters by giving it the time that it's supposed to so it's not something that is built necessarily as part of the chilly pad per se in the overall effect of feeling like sleep can be easy. It's not this chronic illness. That's unfixable there is a hope that comes with being able role to manage and control your sleep and when you do you treat it completely differently and you actually end up getting more. So even though chilly pad doesn't make you sleep more necessarily surly than when you're in bed it can't make you go to sleep it. Will you want to because you're successful at it right. I mean I always had grey sleep hygiene. I mean. I've written a lot about it. I've studied a lot And I never really had problems with sleep in. I thought my sleep was excellent and then I got a chilly the pad and I'm like oh I can actually even sleep better than our D. was so I was actually amazed myself. I mainly wanted the chilly pad because because like I said of hot flashes but it wasn't to the degree you're describing that your friend had it was just like kind of being too warm a little bit uncomfortable But yeah I it's amazing and so obviously if I had to get one for my mom but even if you don't have chronic illness or health challenge it just makes sleep sleep better even if you already think that you sleep like a champ like myself. I didn't think there was any room for improvement but I found out there was so I've always been the kind of person that you know. I Fall Asleep soon as I get in the bed. I I'm very easily. You Know Fall Asleep but now I get in bed and it's just like I can't even I'm laughing as it's just amazing to me how cozy it is just how quickly I do fall asleep. It's just amazing and I'm honestly not saying that just because we're talking. My daughter and I have talked so much. I have an eleven year old daughter and she sleeps on a chilly pad and so we both have just like talked about it. We just tell people. I know people think we're crazy because we're like Omega necessarily paddock. Can't wait to go to bed and it's silly in a way to be so excited about going to bed but sleep is a wonderful thing. It makes me feel great and so like I said we got one for my mom. I bought it Right after Thanksgiving the first week of December and it was all we could do to wait to Christmas Day to give it to her. We wanted to give it to her. So so bad before Christmas We were so excited that we made her open her gift. I on Christmas. That's awesome. I Love I'm hearing those stories and it is it is I eleven year old. I have all boys But it is even for kids. It's it's pretty remarkable today. I do think it's really sad. State of affairs. I think it shows up unfortunately in in things like suicide rates and and stress levels for kids can sleep is that is a picture for that stress. It's your chance for your body. That cycle through whatever stress was for the day and our kids hard just not getting enough sleep and not getting enough good sleep and I do think that we are were. Were keeping her husband is a little bit too warm at Niner. We like that comfort of that. That room temperature that we think is ideal but it's a little bit too warm for even those kids to get back good sleep sleep and they need it. I don't know if they need a more. Everyone needs but they you know their developing brains need that time in deep sleep to do it brains needed due to recover. This is a deep sleep is where your brain does a lot of. Its work for the day. You don't file your memories during the day you file them at night and if you're not doing that all that stuff that they learn all day in school sits out there and doesn't get filed properly without that good sleep right. I do think it's very important For children to get sleep because like you said that's when our brain is basically doing kind of like cleanup process. Yes so it's really important and I think it's other than you know a lot of parents think our my kid's GonNa be grumpy if if they don't get enough sleep but it's there's a lot more to it the Matt so I do think it's important and along the line of our brains and stress. Can you talk to us a little bit about. PTSD and sleep. Yeah had so. This is definitely Clearly I have a lot of pet projects but the veterans project Obviously lots of people can have PTSD. It's not restricted to veterans. But this is definitely been an area of High Focus for our company so we have a special program for veterans where they can apply for Basically a free product to sleep on. We're getting really great results. Were actually in another study right now with trends and reducing those symptoms of PTSD very similar to the menopausal one where pita. You'RE GONNA Steve If you look at the sleep graph where hip McGrath of someone with. Ptsd they actually just don't get deep sleep so their brain is not. It's a constant the state of turmoil in those night terrors. In this this rhythm ribbon that goes across the top of your sleep you just don't go deep And and that's one of the sort of symptoms of PTSD By cooling your body and allowing your brain to get that deep sleep his. You're kind of forcing it not to go there with temperature. The reduction so far I don't have percentage numbers because the studies are not finished yet but it is it is showing some really phenomenal final results and again it. It is a half a half in half testimony to sleep again just the power of being able to sleep and when it can fix despise our bodies in physical and mental states. But then there's the other part of just the power of if you're asleep you can't fix things like you said you felt like you slept. Well what else can you do to fix something when you're asleep and temperature because it talks to your unconscious brain temperature talks to your hypothesis. Which is the old party of rain? And I don't mean old as in your all the same age but an older in that evolutionary part and in that unconscious part and and that really ingrained sense of what controls our body unconsciously temperature's really high on that list and so it's an easy easy no willpower no interactions. You can't have a a mental wreck down and say I'm not GonNa talk to temperature your brain. Does that without you. So even if you're having a bad day you go in with stress temperature can talk to your brain and get past all that prefrontal cortex conscious stuff up that saying. I don't want to do this. I don't do this and it can help you with relaxing solve all of the ills with with PTSD. No but it can settle things down. And it is is making a sizable difference for those veterans We also have veterans with other physical difficulties And a lot of neurological challenges. It does go back to that brain so we have even you know as far as people with MS and then extrapolation of some of those veterans wartime mentioned injuries but any of those neurological FIBROMYALGIA. All of those things what breaks down for a lot of those people is the temperature control role in their limbs And when that can be managed and taken care of it's just one less thing for your body it just makes it easier for those people to sleep so so when people in nursing homes. That can't manage their temperature on their own and literally pat is able to help manage that temperature really is like a like radiator would be for. Your car is how we usually describe it. You know you're an engineer putting off heats naturally as part of your everyday chemical body reactions uh-huh and when you're asleep it just helps manage that and take the heat off so you don't over overheat like your car would if it didn't have radiator. Wow that makes a lot a lot of sense. It's fascinating and we could talk about all of the Sleep Geeky staff all day because I love to talk about sleep but I will link doc. I think you have a blog post right about a veterans of PTSD. So I'll link that and I'll put some other links. There's a lot more information on the each leap pad website. They have a blog. So I'll put the link to that and you can check. There's a ton more information. I have a video Actually video I will put the link after after watching Youtube. It'll be up in the corner If you're listening this on the podcast the description box that will be a link and get all of the information You can engage a coupon code to get a discount on actually pat or ler. Can you briefly describe the difference between the chilly pad in Willer. Yes so the chilly pad is our legacy product. It is Best described if you set your thermostat in your house. It's a it's just like that the old fashioned Shen set it and forget it one temperature whatever temperature your added. It'll stay there and keep plugging away at it until you you turn it off or change it That's what's the chilly pad. So for a lot of people that that simplicity as easy and and it's it's what they love about it. There's a remote that comes with it so you can adjust it easily. But it's it's generally a senate prohibit thermostat. Ruler is much more like your next year programmable thermostat were if you're going to run programs if he want to have those different buckets of sleep broken out if that something that's important for your sleep in and you WanNa Really Geek out on that that ler has an APP and it's able to work more on scheduling and have a little more flexibility It's a little further evolved in the sense that we put some of the features that we learned from customers wanted wanted to hear so there's an adjustability on the fan speed for for noise. It runs a little bit more efficiently. Leon power As well so you're chili powder. Run on about one hundred seventy watts power which is still a pretty small amount compared to your air conditioning or other things to get your house nice and cool But Lebron's on about four hundred forty. Watts it's working a little bit more efficiently. It fits a little easier under your bed. Which is another thing depending on where you decide to keep it so you know those are those are mostly the trade offs of figuring out which unit is is most appropriate for you and does the lawyer have a UV system or something it it does so the chilly pad you can get You know cleaner pellets It'd be similar to you. If you have a humidifier that gunk builds up it's it's the same with the chilly pad or learn that has a built-in uv light that kills automatically. So it's it's again something that you don't have to think about It usually runs Both of them will eventually run out of water. 'cause there's some evaporation that does happen. It's entirely closed system But Ler tends to last two who tom longer. Some of it depends on the environment that you're in on the humidity of where you're living On how long it lasts but it usually lasts about two longer. Okay and you fill both systems with distilled water right. Yeah we generally recommend this dove it kind of helps from some of those mineral buildup so the other thing that happens. The with cleaning it is it will build up some gunk in overtime Just like a humidifier would so similar to that a lot humidifiers. Have you be lights built in to kill that gunk Ler Does that as well chilly pad. It's pretty easy treatment. It's a one pellet you put in once a month so it's fixable either way it's just about how make comments maintenance or no maintenance you want to address with that And we don't really do recommend like like a distilled water because again depends on the calcium and mineral In your water Because that can build up as well but it's generally a pretty low asking asking if you WANNA use tap water you may have to break that down over time Okay I did use the Silverado with mine but I did also get cleaner it really. It's I think it's a really easy system to use and I do have the chilly pad I do like the idea of the you know scheduling the the temperature changes so but it's really not that hard because I just go in there thirty minutes before I go to bed and turn it to the temperature I want get in bed and then as soon as I get in bed soon as I turn out the light I just turn it all the way down. It's not a problem for me and I will say as a side note that my cats really really like it it it is it is Is really crazy. We have a weighted blanket coming out. It's a limited time thing but I does have all the Chili built into it she'd be available actually starting later this month We're doing a sort of recalling it. The equivalent of like mcrib were doing a limited time offer with just a small test But I think we've almost sold through our test already so it's I think that it will definitely become part of the regular Mix of Chili products by summertime. I think so. It's a blanket. Does it have the hydroponic system in the blanket. It is It's a weighted blanket. 'cause I am a huge weighted blanket Fan You have not used it would who'd be worthwhile trying. especially if you have a hard time falling asleep really helps with that releases. Serotonin for anxiety or stress at the end of the day So I'm big weighted weighted blanket but way the blankets are heavy and can be hot is the downside so we built that System into a weighted blanket so that you can habit the other thing is if you get really hot. It's a great way to make yourself a temperature sandwich I would say I saw the picture on your website and I was like okay. It's a weighted blanket. But does it have so I was actually was going to ask you about. It's on glad you brought it up. So how does it work. Are you like attached to a unit you are. You can pick whether you want to detach to Cuba orange alerts interchangeable hose so you. You are tethered but someone someone to a weighted blanket. You're not going to. It's not a throw blanket a wander round with Panna subtle under wherever you are so it works from a sense of you have to plug it in and and run it like you would a a chilly hugh ler anyway and you're just not gonNA get up and wander around with it still attached. There's a detached pretty quick detachable art so you don't have to have the tail with it but Yeah it's I think it's GonNa be a really so far the reviews and the the interest on this really high so sir you'd be good addition. I think so too. I can only think of one complaint about your products Tara and that is that I don't really want to get out of bed any yes we do have to have at some point. I took an addictive disclaimer on it. We do get complaints. I think that On our list of product development is definitely coming up with a travel version At some point for that very same reason of it is once once you have temperature regulation and I think it's comparable to you know once you get air conditioning in your car away. The cars in the nineteen fifties and have air conditioning. We we did everything we did. I mean I drove around with my parents and we didn't have air conditioning and all our cars. Whenever now I can't I can't imagine not having that in there And sleeping with temperature control is kind of the same so yes there is a disclaimer of if you use it you may not wanna live without about it. So you're not GonNa win unless you can take it with a for sure will tear thank you so much. which is there anything else that you would want our listeners to know about before I let you go? No I think the only other thing is if you want to find out more are about the sleep science from certainly from my perspective. I do have a book on Amazon. It'll come out and published Version later this summer. But it's an e book right now on on Amazon. That's reprogram your sleep under Terry Young of Oh awesome free to read and were. There's also more or about the chilly pad story. That's intriguing to you. Yeah awesome and if someone was to go to the website is chilly technology dot com Perfect okay so make sure you check out the description box and the blog posts were all the links and all the information will be there and thank you so much Tara. I really appreciated you taking the time to come and talk to us more about this seriously. Life changing products. And I know it's helped so so many people people get more sleep so thank you thank you for having me. Thanks for listening please. Rate and review so other people can learn about this podcast. Find out more for about sleep hygiene eating healthy tasty recipes zero waste lifestyle and lots more on that organic mom dot com help us spread the word and stay healthy.

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Charu, Satellite

Everything is Alive

25:05 min | 1 year ago

Charu, Satellite

"Support for everything's alive comes from Hendrick's gin. No other gen is made with an infusion of rose and cucumber. Stay tuned to the end of this episode for a special feature. We made with Hendrick's gin Hendrix. Jen is forty four percent alcohol by volume imported by William grant and sons Inc. New York, New York, please enjoy the unusual responsibly. I guess I miss the people who made me the people on earth. Because I didn't know anyone else. But. We're all kind of nerds. They put a lot of effort into making me. You know. Everything is exact and precise every bowl to never screw. And I often wonder. Why the nerds could not have given me a sweater? I take it, it's cold up there. It's so cold, dude. I'm cold all the time. How big are you? I'm two tons. So it'd be a big, big sweater like a giant net sweater. I like that image all the satellites space chips, the international space station. All of you up there just wearing big cozy sweaters. Yes. I would like that. Hi, I am a satellite. My name is Charles. So you are orbiting the earth. That's right. How did you get up there? It was a whole, it was a whole thing was a lot of shaking, and then they opened a latch. And then I destroyed out and it was nothing. Just a whole bunch of infinite nothing. I've seen footage of win human beings are launched into space and it seems very stressful. You know, their faces are being contorted. They're having trouble with the g force. Did you experience any of that Elia? I don't have a face. So I don't know what that means. But I, I was clenched up. I can tell you that tell me what your first impression of space was. At its. It's great. I mean it's great but it, but it also sucks. I the stars are great, the occasional comet fantastic. And you're seeing the most wonderful thing anybody on earth could ever experience. But then there's no one there to share it with not even your shadow we it's a win win. Was your last contact with someone or something? I want to say eight or nine years ago, maybe eight eight years since you had contact with any kind of contact. But so that's right. Yeah. That's right. He was telecom satellite. I just came across him. We re passing by gender in orbit. So we had a little window of time where we chat. Usually things are either fly in pass me. Or. There are a little bit below mirror above me, and I can't quite quite reach him but for for a little bit there. We were right and each other's areas. So we could talk and he was funny who's quite funny. He made a lot of puns. Do you remember any of the plans? Sure, it'd be a lot of puns, about space, which are easy. You know. I would say hi to have a new would say gimme some space, you know. And I would be like what an annoying. Little. Little friend. But he was my friend. I he's not around anymore, but I think about him a lot. Where to go? He went where we all go in the end and to the graveyard orbit. The graveyard orbit. That's right. There are a couple of things that happen when you get really old as a satellite, and they decide that you're done. They launched you. They speed you up. They launch you like two hundred miles above irregular orbit into what they call a graveyard orbit. So two hundred miles above you right now are orbiting satellites that no longer do anything. Yes, while they're dead. Yes, I think what it would be what it would be like, if people who had died, or just like constantly floating just above my head. It's weird thing to imagine. Oh, yeah. I mean just the like the material of it is very, very scary to think about. But I guess you're walking around on the ground. The people you love are below you. The ones who are dead and you can't see them either. But they're always there. And that's pretty weird too. I want to hear about what it's like to be up there looking down on earth. What do you look at? Well, I see the continents a lot of the time. They're like, obscured by clouds and other weather stuff. I see a lot of the ocean. You guys have a lot of ocean. But half the time when I'm thinking about. You know, if I were at ever fall out of orbit, I would crash right into the ocean. A no one would ever find me. You think about that a lot? I do. He I, I do think about if I were to suddenly drop out of the sky, you know, because I dropped into the sky in. Kind of a really dramatic. And sudden, I think it just as easily could be. Undone. You know, if you ever look up and, and you do see me falling out of the sky, m. I don't think I don't think it has to end in tragedy. I think I don't know just like catch me. So if I see it two ton satellite hurtling towards the earth just reach out your arms and catch me gently that way neither of us will get hurt. Hello. Is this Merv? Andre. Hi. I'm calling from the United States. Do I have it? Right. We're, you Shire, president of Esperance, Australia in nineteen seventy nine when the Skylab space station crashed. There is invade. I was and I should say Shire president. That's like is that like mayor, right? Silence. Seimas a may. Yeah. Well, this was a giant space station that broke up and crashed in your town. Can you tell me when did you I know this was going to happen? Well, we knew about the three dies before that would talk about dropping it in the southern Aisin goes, they couldn't couldn't afford to drop a diaper America, and they said, they couldn't afford to drop it Russia or China, 'cause it could start a will, and we're looking for some way, or, and a lot of people have thought. Yeah. The Western Australia's any fee kangaroos will dealt in there. But I don't think that was the plan. We, we formed the opinion failure that, that really lost control of it. And on the Dodd prior to it. Laney. Yeah. We got a wig from NASA to say at half past ten that not we go to win from NASA. Decide that come down safely in the seven and the that was alive. So we thought beauty that's the end of that. So my wife and I went to bed bit past team. And at half past midnight, we can with this six, Sony, booms bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and the, the World Drive, doors rental in the windows rattling. We lifted paid and rushed at Saud's was caught a quite a who. Then the next morning and it was reports that PayPal had big paces in the paddock and not in tank places of insulation. And, and they're still bits in the country. But now they lying random people interested in bringing you mean anymore. They on sorry who, who can ice coups. Who's there with you? She's on the other season. And the other thing, hi there. Hi dorothy. Yeah. She's she's she's still thinks she's my boss. We've been married for sixty five years this it. Hugh writer with timeless. She's still thinks he's in charge to think that. Oh. Don't do they? She just kicked me again. Congratulations on sixty five years. Thank you about something else. He wouldn't hang around that low. I left to because I'm going to hang Rams. They still didn't aches. But let starting to get used to it actually so Dorothy, can I ask you what were your memories of the night Skylab fell? Oh, the boom boom, booms locus up the coming through the Sam Baria, and we've got these terrible. Baying noise limit, what nine hail it was. You know, the world is coming to an end terrifying for wool. Well, guess it has both of you somehow no one was hurt. No animals are anything. What's the closest anyone came well people that went up on the hill. I think for it to come either that I it was like say, breaking up, and it was all glowing coast. What ought it's coming through the atmosphere and some of the employees nice five of the Hades that they that, that would decking like one of the bid smart buddy will take him away. I was that was some people who closed that there was some fine as they had paces laid it in the backyard. Now from the house a strip of one of the oxygen tanks strip Delfin, the heighten it at come flying down luck luck right to blight and cut off a couple of little saplings lane in on the back loan and didn't didn't it didn't go. He's an animal or anything. But you know if one. Of been in the Lewellen would have just kept straight through them. Log enough. It's really a miracle that it didn't hit somebody. It was idea bad that whatsoever on family three. I'm here the people. Hm. Well, it was such a pleasure speaking with both of you, thank you for taking the time. That was. Yeah. Plays an act memory, it does indeed experience sent me was. True. I guess from time to time you see the moon. They're curious what that's about her. Just curious what that's like from your perspective. Well, I mean she. She's lovely she glows as you know. And she's got a couple of scars. But they're the kind of scars just make her more beautiful. You know, whatever it's like whatever. I'm sorry. Do you have a do you have a history with the moon? No. I mean it's not like I. She's just like very nice to look at, you know, and very graceful and beautiful and glowing all the time, sort of like a like a supernatural glow. I do think about sometimes what it would be like to just like, just like brush, brush, my, my medal. Just against I sack. I haven't touched anything in many years. I was sent up into space in space. There is no air and then nothing lands on me and nothing. Ever passes by close enough to touch me. I do think about what if I fell into her orbit her orbit incident, earth's, and I got to just look at our all day. And spin around. Her be nice to see all of her. I think. What if she fell out of the arts orbit, too? Then maybe we could. Get away from here. Travel together through the thank you black. I think I would like that. I think I would I would really like that. support for everything is alive comes from vistaprint to advance in your career being prepared when an opportunity comes up is crucial those moments happen all the time. They're happening now. And having a business card in your pocket. Ready to hand out that shows your professionalism is the first step to making something happen with vistaprint. You can create a truly professional unique card in minutes. Satisfaction guaranteed. This the print wants you to be able to own the now in any situation, which is why our listeners will get five hundred high quality, custom business cards starting at nine ninety nine use code alive at vistaprint dot com, that's code alive at vistaprint dot com. Alive at vistaprint dot com. Support for everything's alive. Also comes from wicks weeks is the most technologically, advanced website, building platform out there since I started this show, I've wanted a place to share some of the art that you all have created of the objects I've interviewed so I tried out wicks it literally took twenty minutes. And I had that website. You can check it out at EIA art dot com. It was fun to make. It was really easy. And whether you know what you're doing, or you're me wicks is super to ITV, and has all the tools you need to make your website, beautiful. You can start and publish for free. Go to wicks dot com slash alive to create your website today, and please use that link because it really helps our show. That's wicks w I x dot com slash alive. You have. I don't know what I should call it. But you have something on you that other satellites don't have can you talk about it? Okay. Well, right. Before I was launched up into space. One of the guys on the team. This stuck a little bumper sticker on me. Like I was a car something humiliating, as you can imagine it can never take it off. It's just on mealtimes. Just says. Wake Forest university. Class of ninety four. I mean, I have no connection to that university. It's weird that that's your message to the cosmos. Yeah, that's right. I have a serial number two, eight one four. Three nine. Two three one nine. Five to one seven. Six four three nine four three. Two two. Two. One. Five. Six three six. Seven eight. Three seven. Six six two. Six. Five three. So that's what you're, that's what you're communicating. That's right. Yes. That and Wake Forest university class of nineteen ninety four. I do I do you know, constellations is that something you're familiar with? Yes. I know all of them. Yes. They're much better from up here. I see a lot more detail. I guess, you know, the big one for us is the big Dipper, which is a spoon. It's not really a big Dipper. It's it's it's a mermaid. It's a mermaid and she's holding the big Dipper, which is the spoon. She's eating chili. The mermaid eating chilly. Yes. Chilly of the stars. What about do you know Orion belt? Yes. But I also see the rest of him whole. Yes. I do see the rest of the man he's actually completely nude, except for the belt Ryan. That's right. The hunter Orion. The hunters completely nude and he's only wearing the belt. I'm not sure if you've ever seen someone. Entirely in the nude, but only wearing a belt. But it's, it's fantastic. He's a very good looking man. And I think he has every right. Is every right to it? Ultimately, it's a really weird thing. We do looking at constellations rather than looking up at the stars and contemplating that each one is the center of distant universe. We look up and say that looks like a spoon. I think for me I can understand when I was on the ground I was always searching for meaning to, you know, and I, I know that, that is early. Tempting to like. Look up and think, oh, that's, that's a space, that's bigger than me. And so maybe it holds answers that I can't find down here. But I'm here to tell you that there's nothing up here, really. It's like there's nothing up here, but me. This is everything is alive. The show is produced by Jennifer mills and me in Chile with evil Walsh, over and Isabel. Carney, thanks as always to Emily speed back. This episode was edited by Hillary Frank. Her new parenting book is weird parenting wins. And she is the creator of the longest shortest time. Jaru the satellite was played by Charo Sinha music in this episode from flu dot sessions, everything is alive is a proud member of radio topa from PR X where we orb it faithfully around Jewish appear. Oh, executive producer. You can find us any number of ways at everything is alive dot com. We'll see soon. And now a special feature from our sponsor Hendrick's gin created by the legendary unconventional master distiller, Leslie Gracie, it's made in Scotland in small batches, very small batches, it's the only Jin made with an infusion of rose and cucumber. I'm denise. And I am a cucumber the vegetable actually fruit. I never knew I always knew that about tomatoes. Yeah, we're another one slip under the radar as a vegetable. But I, I love to let people know when I can actually. I'm sorry, vegetable. Oh, it's okay could be worse. You know in the eighteenth century, they called us cow comebacks cow. Comers cow, cover the idea being that we were only fit for cows. Right. That's insulting. It also doesn't make any sense, like humans eat us. They don't call us human comers. I would, I would not call you human cumbersome. Thank you. Okay, so you've you've been picked now, I would think that would be scary, you know, just waiting to be eaten. No, it's what I'm here to do. I'm excited about it. I just don't want it to happen the wrong way. What's the? I don't wanna be a pickle. Can you imagine what a nightmare? I can't imagine. I just want. More. I want to travel fly first class. In a salad. They give to people in first class. I like to go to law school you'd like to go to law school. Did you know that there was a law in the UK until two thousand and eight that cucumbers must be free of abnormal curvature? It's outrageous. You're saying there was a law, banning cucumbers that were to bendy. Yes. If I were a lawyer, I would make sure that laws like that didn't crop up again in the future. Did you did you mean pun crop? My dream, I ultimate dream would be somehow to end up. Sort of at a classy cocktail function, you know, women in high fashion dresses and men in tuxedos. I'm in stemware ice glass stemware, as part of a cocktail waiting to be sipped up. I know that sounds fancy for someone like me. I was raised on a farm. Oh, comers were raised on a farm. Right. Hendrick's gin is the only gin and fused with rose and cucumber. It's strangely provocative authentically vintage. And it's the only Jen helping cucumbers who dare to dream. To learn more go to Hendrick's gin dot com slash EIA Hendrick's. Gin is forty four percent alcohol by volume imported by William grant and sons Inc. New York, New York, please enjoy the unusual responsibly. Radio.

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How Stress and Our Microbiome Effects our Brains and Our Body

Pick the Brain

21:40 min | 2 years ago

How Stress and Our Microbiome Effects our Brains and Our Body

"Welcome to the pick the brain podcasts where we picked the brains of the brightest minds in the areas of health, self-improvement productivity, and kicking ass at life. I- Jeremy Fisher always alongside my co, host Aaron, Falconer. All right today, Aaron, we've gotta show and it's all about our bellies. Looking forward to. Six pack. Oh, now I feel bad. I gotta go to the gym. All right. Let's get started. Microbes are everywhere on your phone in your water bottle on your hands before you wash them on your hands off to you and literally everywhere else on top of you to microbes up of new present at any moment, and there is nothing we can do about it. So MS of years ago, we made a pact, we give them shelter and food, and in turn they work for us. But the more we learn about this partnership, the more it looks like a Cold War. Insight on mother's woo humans out Storrow when we are born and traveling through the birth canal billions of our mothers bacteria cover every single part of our bodies. This is an essential part of human health children, born via C-section, have a higher rate of asthma immune diseases and even new Kenia. So Albert is do not only accept the invasion of microorganisms. They welcome it. Over millions of years, we co volved to make the best of our relationship. Mother's milk crew ample contains special sugars that are meant to feed and support certain groups of microbes work as a decoy for others and help to modulate the immune system. It takes up to two years until a healthy microbe community has fold. Every human has their own unique microbiome made up of bacteria, viruses fungi, and other organisms. We have three categories of guests on and in our bodies, one quiet passengers that do their own thing and our politely ignored by being that they take up space and keep more aggressive intruders in check two guests that HAMAs, but with whom we've learned to live, for example, bacteria that literally create acid that melts our teeth. If we don't brush enough, they want to take up as much space as they can and we don't want them to, but we can't get rid of them in timing. Three friendy fellows that our bodies want to have around. Most of them are a community of three hundred eighty thousand billion bacteria from two thousand different species that they've got these microorganisms help us digest food and pull additional countries from things we can't buy just ourselves. Unfortunately, our got is also the perfect point of attack for intruders. So it's guarded by an aggressive army, our immune system to survive head how microbiome co evolve with us to be able to communicate with our body. The most important part of that is to ask the immune system to not kill them, but they also have a real motivation to keep our gut healthy. So some of them produce messenger substances that help to educate the immune system and others stimulate the gut cells to regenerate faster. But over the last few years evidence has emerged that the influence of our gut microbiome goes much much further. It might even talk directly to our brain. We've observed of Hugh curious things. Ninety percent of our bodies serotonin important messenger substance for nerve cells is produced in the got some scientists. Think the microbiome does this to communicate with the Vegas nerve. The information highway of our nervous system. Other examples are bacteria that's to eight immune cells in the gut city, send the kind of alarm signal to the brain. Here it activates immune cells that help the brain recover from injuries since the brain decides where read the microbiome is interested in healthy brain. A new field of science is opening up here and we're just in the verge of understanding how these complex systems inside our bodies interact. But we are starting to see how much microbiome actually influences us and our behavior take depression. For example, healthy rats fed microbes from the guts of depressed. People began showing anxiety Legba. Heavier and symptoms that looked like depression and in early twenty seventeen a study linked the microbiome to intelligence by connecting certain setup of bacteria in newborns with better motor and language skills, but it might also influence our daily lives. Tests with fruit flies show that them I grow Buyum influenced what kinds of food they craved. This could mean your microbes are able to tell your brain which food it should get them. Although this is not a one way street, the seat for our microbiome comes from our mother, but how it develops and changes is determined by what we eat. The organisms in our got feed on different things, some like fibers and leafy greens, others, gophers, sugars, and starches, and some love greasy fries and butter. Our God is like a garden in which we constantly decide what will grow and blossom if we eat healthily, we breed bacteria that like healthy food. If we eat a lot of. Fast food than we breed fast food, loving bacteria. Life is hard so we can get trapped in a vicious circle. You have a stressful time, lots of burgers and fries and pizza. This is awesome for fast food bacteria. They multiply in multiplying and take up space from vegetable, loving bacteria, but even worse, they send signals to the brain to continue what it's doing. This makes you one more fast food which breeds more fast food bacteria which makes you crave fast food and so on. This kind of self reinforcing cycle could play a huge role in a beastie, but it's important to stress that you can fight this process and reverse his lightning healthly and breeding mold, good bacteria beyond weight gain. And our microbiome has also been linked to other serious diseases like autism, schizophrenia and cancer. One of the earliest symptoms of Parkinson's is actually got problems. If you'll body is overrun with bacteria that home you. There is often only one solution you bring in an army of good guys. That's very easy. You just transplant some healthy boot. You do them by literally transferring poop from a healthy person into your got this method is already used to cure diarrhea that's caused when c. difficile bacteria takeover gut microbiome, but we just don't know enough about the complex interplay work here. Yes. For example, the transplant from an overweight donor cure the woman's diarrhea. But contributed to her ability down the line. This caused some ways and another study tried to reverse the effect poop transplants from slim people to a beast ones, gave them a more diverse microbiome and made them less sensitive to incident. Both things that also happen when people lose weight. We need to do a lot more science to really understand how microbes make us healthy or sick, but whether we like it or not, we need microbiome and it needs us will never have our bodies to ourselves, but we have gained a powerful ally. If we can just keep the peace. All right. Here we just heard that interesting clip about are micro bio. It was some. There was some interesting information there. There was most importantly, a British accent can even make a conversation about microbiomes sexy. Yeah. And in poop transplants, are you planning on signing for any pooped, trans anytime soon? When I heard that it caught me off guard. I had to do. I was I was listening to it walking down the street, go into a meeting, and I was like that did at developing to it, listening to it, listened in. I was like, wait, what. I thought it was a joke at first like, oh, we just any set it in a British accent, you know, just just breeze breeze right into, yeah, we're just going to do transplants. Okay, cool. But the concept, the concept is actually interesting to me the idea that our bacteria start to react based on what food they get and it it makes really interesting, and it makes it makes total sense to me because I can tell if I go long periods of time without eating something like bread, I don't. I don't have the craving for bread anymore. And I, I had no idea that my microbiome was adjusting itself because of that. Yeah. No, that was a really, really cool in a cool fact. And as I was as I told you, I was listening to this walking to meeting which happened to be a lunch meeting, and I opted for the salad at to the breakfast sandwich. So you're like, I need to make my micro biomass happy. Exactly, exactly. And. Does make sense? It's really, it's really, you know, I think all this stuff, the more we know it's just it's also interrelated. There's. It's not a secret. Why do you gain weight? Why do you feel like crap? Why do you whatever, because you're training yourself and this is I guess, the mechanism through which we are training ourselves either for good or for bad. It's coming through the stomach. What was really interesting to me is how it can affect certain mental illnesses. And I think even said, like your intelligence in your, you know that it's all coming from this one place is is pretty surprising, but also kind of makes sense. Yeah. I mean, if you think about the fact that our brains are essentially making decisions based on what input they're getting, it would make sense that that input the might receive from inside our body not just outside of the world that we live in everything that we take him with our eyes and ears mood make sense that what's also happening inside our body and feeding our brains is going to have an effect on how it functions. Yeah. And I think what's compelling about this is that it's, you know, it's, it's yet another reason. That feels more profound to start. To take care of yourself and specifically the way you eat because it's not just about, oh, doa look good. In the stress you, you have the power to affect your mood to affect your outlook to affect your energy all through what you eat and that in self improvement is one of the biggest things, right? He's like, how do I have control over my happiness in where I wanna go and my progress? And by doing these very simple things you can you have so much more control than you think, again, if you throw away the vanity aspect, which is it, which is usually kind of the carrot to get you in the door, but it doesn't necessarily hold you there long enough. The real win is this idea that you're not. You weren't just born and this is the way you are. It's like you're born and you have a fundamental amount of control over yourself. And so this is a very tangible way to start taking control. So I think that's what was. Probably the most important thing to me out of this here. It seems like there's a new study that comes out that's like interesting new information, and it ends up leading back to the curious to eat healthy and exercise. Like it's this matters. This matters this matters and the curious eat healthy and exercise. It always comes back to that. And I guess it's just because some things are so true that we just can't seem to get away from them. Right. The is always right in front of us trying to find some way some some other thing that we can do change things, but it always for some reason, comes back to well for the reason that it's the right thing to do. It always comes back to eat healthy and exercise. One thing that we don't hear as often is how strength of stress affects our gut health. Talking about a list. So the next article that we're going to hear is just that what our gut is telling us about the level of stress, that runner. So that's what's coming up next. Listen to your gut what stress is doing to your digestive health. Perfect. To bring contributor Kevin Jones. Stress can wreak havoc on your digestive system with symptoms, including stomach ache, constipation, diarrhea, cramps, nausea, an acid, indigestion left unchecked. Stress can lead to serious gastrointestinal issues, chronic upset innings. -iety may also exacerbate pre existing ailments Ceac in Crohn's disease, stomach ulcers and implementary bow disease. The ancient Greek physician Bacher teas known as the father of modern medicine insisted all disease comes from the gut more than two thousand years later, scientists and physicians continued to learn more about gastrointestinal health as they do. It becomes clear just how strong the correlation is between belly and brain. It should come as little surprise after all this connection can be heard throughout our language. When you're feeling nervous, you have butterflies in your stomach. When something's wrong, you feel it in your gut or in the pit of your stomach. If you encounter something troubling enough, you may not even be able to stomach it at all. There are some interesting mechanics involved in the mind. Gut connection, strong emotions like fear, sadness, even joy can activate the fight or flight response adrenaline and other stress hormones flood the body. This distress signal is picked up by the nerve endings in the stomach, which can prompt number of possible physiological changes. These include gastro, intestinal contractions, Asaf, ical spasms and stomach inflammation. It can also make a susceptible to infection in the face of ongoing stress. The metabolism can be seriously weakened. One reason is that in fighter flight mode, digestion is suppressed as blood as divert from the stomach to help us deal with the perceived threat. Stress also causes us to produce cortisol and insulin hormones that direct the body to store fat, rather than build muscle. According to Dr Kenneth coach stress can affect every part of that. I just of system. Dr. Coach is the medical director of that. I just of health center at Wake Forest university. If you're overstressed and your stomach is feeling the wrath, their steps you can take to improve your situation. It's always good to speak with the doctor who can detect if you have any serious stomach ailments. You may also want to go straight to the source and de-stress. If you're having trouble turning off your, you may wanna see him into health professional or speak with therapist. There also a number of gentle in mindful activities that can help you on wind. You might practice yoga meditation and conscious breathing or spend time in nature. Some people find comfort by journaling, spending time with friends, engaging in moderate exercise, both cardio and weight bearing is another important way to foster calm. You might schedule regular walks outside or on the treadmill. Give water aerobics, try or commit to something more challenging, burnoff mental energy on a regular basis. You can determine which type of physical activity would suit your best depending on your fitness goals. The mayo clinic recommends you decide for at least thirty minutes a day, and in times of worry, some people tend to binge eat looking for relief in fatty salty or sugary snacks. This will do nothing but make the symptoms of stress worse, especially in your gut, adding nausea, constipation, diarrhea to the list. This is also referred to as stress eating, which will also only make matters worse as stress levels continue to rise. There are other foods though that offer a mood stabilizing affect st-. Stress busters include blueberries, stash egos, dark chocolate, milk, salmon Turkey. In green leafy vegetables. It's news that gives credence to another one of Parker tease favorite sayings. Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food. Okay, Aaron, we just heard that article anything jump out? No. I mean, perhaps just the same thing that a again from the previous from the period piece, which is just how interconnected everything is. It's like. Stress doesn't just live in your head. It goes right to your stomach starts to take over your body physically when your house physically down makes you more stressed if all these things are connected. And so it's just so important to be able to get a grip on them and really understand how powerful the couple of moving parts within you are to take care of and and. You know, it's something the quote from Hippocrates all disease come from the gut two thousand years old. So it shouldn't. It shouldn't really be a surprise in yet. And yet here we are reading these things going, really. I didn't know that of got a really close family member that is in poor health primarily because his eating habits are really, really bad, and he is constantly on Mike case about taking care of my car. He's because he's, he's one who says, oh, you need to make sure that the oils changed don't run it too hard in the wintertime, make sure it warms up before you drive. It need to make sure you take care of your vehicle. So they last and he's like detail the car, make sure the wax. You know, the paint job is in good shape, and I'm like, you spend so much time focusing on taking care of your car and almost no time taking care of your body. And I just don't want the same principles apply. You know if you're not taking care of your body if you're not trying to find way. Yeah, if you're letting it go. If you're cheating here cheating there, if you're putting it under an immense amount of pressure. At putting the crappy gasoline putting the crappy gasoline in or your, or you're just running it too hard. You know, if you if you've always got it red lining, that's basically almost the same thing as operating in your life under an amount of stress. I mean, adventure that engine has gonna wanna blow or the tires. And yeah, and I, it's just interesting to me that very often. There are parallels of they're really clear metaphors of things that are right in our lives that are right in front of us in. Sometimes we just, we just don't see it. You would think that that a person would really wanna take more care of themselves than they would their car, but you know some people that's that's just the way it goes. And again, we talk a lot about, you know, you always hear the same thing. We talked about this before you always hear the same thing, diet and exercise diet and exercise. And it's interesting because I think that those two concepts and people not doing well at those two concepts actually causes stress for a lot of people. In their lives because they just feel guilty that they're not doing it, and I need to do this to do that. They need to feel guilty. Go ahead. I know you're going to ramp up your, but I just wanna say one 'cause I can't impress on this enough want the most asked question I get picked the brand through emails and comments. Is this Aaron, you said to do x, y, and z. If you wanna be happy, but how do you do it? How do you get started? You know, and. And so for me, this idea what we've learned in this episode is this idea that you do have control over yourself and where you wanna go and ultimately these things lead to it. You life improvements in productivity. This episode has given a very tangible way that you can start doing just that taking control. So for those people that are struggling, they don't know how to get started on anything. This is a great idea. This is a great way to get started. Again. It's not about like looking good in a pair of jeans. This stuff directly affects your overall health motivation, mental health. All of those things. So when you're struggling, how do I get started on something start, really taking control of these big decisions in your life? Like what you're eating because it's not just about food. It's about your body and your mind as a sinked entity that you have power over. So this is and this is the way to start taking power over. So that's what I would them sold. I'm going to some broccoli. Exactly. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up on think Kevin Jones for his article from pick the brain dot com. One of think in a nutshell for the video earlier in the episode until next time I'm Jeremy Fisher. Reminding you to keep moving, keep thinking and keep growing.

Aaron diarrhea Jeremy Fisher Kevin Jones HAMAs nausea Kenia Albert depression water aerobics mayo clinic Wake Forest university Hugh Buyum Parkinson cortisol
S5-15  Elaine Orr  Swimming Between Worlds

Charlotte Readers Podcast

57:03 min | 6 months ago

S5-15 Elaine Orr Swimming Between Worlds

"Welcome to Charlotte Readers podcast for authors. Give voice to the written words. This is the show that features stories poems by local and regional authors. The kind that touched the emotions followed by conversations at offered depth and insight into the readings and writing lives of the authors record the show in the well equipped podcast video ad. That co working located right here in the Belmont community near Uptown Charlotte Support for Charlotte readers. Podcast is provided by Park Road. Books the oldest and only independent Bookstore in Charlotte conveniently located in Park Road Shopping Center and by Charlotte Mecklenburg Library a connector of readers leaders and learners with twenty locations and a twenty four hour online presence for more information about these book minded sponsors who help authors give voice to their written words. Please visit them online at Park Road. Books Dot Com and see him library dot org or drop by the bookstore or any library. Branch support is also provided by members. Lucky and for that we offer our gratitude along with some awesome number only content. You can find out more about these member benefits. It's Charlotte readers. Podcasts DOT COM. But enough with a prologue biscuit to the stores. I'm your host Landis Wade. Thank you for listening. Today's episode author Elaine. Or whose recent book swimming between worlds is set in western Salem North Carolina during the early stages of the civil rights movement of the nineteen sixties. The Richmond Times dispatch absorbs. The swimming between world is a novel of Great Humanity Conceive. With Passion and rendered with grace. It's scores a triumph for its author and a blessing for her readers. The plot folks on taxes and Kate and the world around them and whether they can find a life together giving tax desire for social change in case desire to go slow on race relations. It is a love story at the epicenter of change in a small southern town. In the late fifties and early sixties we start the show with Elaine reading about the protagonist initial impression upon his return. Home his town and wants to Salem has changed. But after spending two years in Nigeria tack Heart Changed. Even more chapter one July nineteen fifty nine tack. Her heart came home from Nigeria to discover a town he almost knew the Winston Salem of his youth was branded by ARD. More Methodist. Reynold's high end shopping at Davis Department Store on Fourth Street. His youth green with creeks and football fields turning wide winter with sliding and the sears Christmas display and then there was the depot of his father's store hearts grocery near the intersection of I street in Hawthorne Right where Peterson Creek Ran. The grocery existed out of time smelling of onions and floor wax blaming with color and fruit displays then cereal boxes and sanctified by the community of regulars who stopped by for special on Ham Hawks or conversation with packers father or the full weeks shopping and the drink from the Coca Cola machine. Everyone was welcome or so taecker. It thought almost two years later and the air still carried the high sweet smell of tobacco but there was an expressway through town. That nipped the hills of west end the neighborhood where he'd grown up and that occasionally where an elevated section curve near Hawthorne through a car over the guardrails and passengers to their deaths through a shopping center had grown UP HIS ABSENCE. Like a film set temporarily installed only. It wasn't temporary. Tankers mother drove out there. Almost every day wake forest college was the knee boast of the city which was fair enough. The attacker had no investment in it. Having studied architecture at State College. In Raleigh flourishing and the competitive atmosphere designed studios housed on huge courtyard on the north side of campus. More changed than Winston. Salem was tanker. It left him a minor. American hero and return disgraced. The thought of his violent dismissal from an international assignment with the Clinton Dot Corporation hollowed his chest even now for months after his return. Elaine Neil four is an American writer who grew up in Algeria both worlds converging or novels swimming between worlds and a different Sun. A novel of African at her memoir. God's Linda White Girls African Life Lena's published widely in literary journals such as the Missouri Review Image Blackbird Anthologies and has been writer in residence numerous universities lecturing writing and literature. She's on the Faculty of English. Nc State University where she won the alumni out ending research award two thousand nineteen for her fiction lane also serves on the Faculty of the spalding university brief residency NFA in Writing Program Louisville. She lives in Raleigh husband their dog sand host. Landis weight is committed to making this podcast worth your time. He's a recovering. Trial Lawyer award-winning. Author Book and Dog Lover. Who's laid back? Style encourages authors to read and talk about their published and emerging works. You can listen to this show for free at Charlotte PODCAST DOT COM or it's Charlotte Mecklenburg lavery digital branch website. And you can subscribe and listen for free on Apple podcast. Wherever you like to get your podcast. Show notes of this episode with images links and information about the authors are available at Charlotte Readers podcast Dot Com Charlotte readers. Podcast is a member of the twin city podcast network powered by Ortho Carolina for more information. Go to Queen City podcast network DOT COM Elaine. Welcome to the show thank you. It's delightful to be Orlando's. Thanks for reading my book I really enjoyed it and You kinda came down and didn't quite go through Winston Salem but you kinda passed in that general direction right. Yeah I have a sense of it every time. I'm close new did you. Did you have any ties to western SALEM GROWING UP? Well Yeah actually My parents Southern Baptist missionaries. I was born and grew up in Nigeria but we came for furloughs To the US and we spent one furlough in west end and Happier with that was nineteen sixty to sixty one. So it's a time of a novel right in the wheelhouse and what we're doing and next sending Kennedy we're running for President so talk about this time period for a minute as you as you laid out in your your opening read here. We're in the early sixties. There's a lot of a lot going on the civil rights. Movements you about to get underway one reviewer says it's you know the novels occurring just before the gun goes off in so many but So it it actually begins in fifty nine goes into sixty So for the most part White Americans are not that aware of what's going on But a lot is going on in African American communities Folks are being taught about civil disobedience and a character is gonNA show up. Who's been at this university? An African American character And he's going to. His life is going to intersect with these two white folks so I get ahead of some of the main action of the civil rights movement. But there's the the sedans are central. We're GONNA talk. We're going to talk about that in the show here. But before we get into the characters and some of the plot I went to law school in Winston Salem. Okay and so that had spent three years there Seeing your opening read you you call a wake forest college as the new boast Tau and now we got wake forest university right right but it was seen a wake forest college they're just then an NC L. Let's see State College. Nc State University has great uncle. Frank used to so he went state college. Yeah and say when you're a novelist you have to get these things right. I one thing I did was get a a city map from nineteen sixty so I. I kind of knew street names. So you're setting this. In a turbulent time period in American history But you're bringing some of your own background to bear here because as you said you grew up in Nigeria. Talk about that for just a minute. Sure so I. I grew up in rural areas of Nigeria wasn't in the cities. I wasn't in Leykis Pretty isolated from other white folks The town I was born into had thirty thousand Nigerians in it. Maybe Twenty White folks they were all baptist missionaries and their children. I'm so the world was to me was black and I did not know another world until I was six Winston Salem. You must've stood out. I did stand out in that one. I was called out all the time. But I thought that was the normal world I thought the world was black And then came to the. Us and found out that Well and nineteen sixty. It was so segregated. I don't I hardly remember seeing what were then called Negroes. My Yeah and you you know you have this character attacker. He's the male protagonist. You almost have to protagonists and who you got a male and female kate. We're GONNA talk about to attack her Goes TO NIGERIA. He takes this job in architecture. Thanks that's what he wants to do. Him Beds himself in community makes a lot of friends right. Nigerian friends friends and he sees nothing wrong. With you. Know this interchange and intermingling and socializing and so forth and he comes back to Winston. Salem is totally different from when he left. Well it's totally different. Because he's different right talk. Yeah yeah he grew up with Jim Crow But Jim Crow was normal. Just like for me Black World Normal Right. I didn't think anything about it. He didn't think anything about Jim. Crow It was normal for black folks not come pass. Church Street. It was normal that The only African American he might enter. His Dad's store would be a made. That was the only reason she could go in. That store was because she worked for wipe folks But when he comes back after having been sober for befriended by Nigerians He's suddenly race. He's aware of it. bright He's even aware of his whiteness. Which white people are generally not aware of? Yeah and and so then. He sees the injustice. Did some of what Tucker felt was that something of what Elaine felt when she came to the US not at age six. I have to say socio. Yeah when we were on another furlough later in Decatur Georgia and I was fourteen I entered Decatur high school and it had been recently integrated. That was some of the sixty late sixties and. That was the first time I experienced racial tension and it was like there was a city in the hallways. I couldn't believe it. I had never felt anything like it. In my life so I was shocked that that White folks and black folks could not intermingle in the lunchroom right. There was so much anxiety. So your your your experience in the one that you convey through this character attacker is one where it appears that there's more acceptance and more inclusiveness of the other in Nigeria than there was at the time in the US is that is that how what's view even though you were different skin tone blonde hair. Were you accepted and Nigeria? How well yes? I'm for the most part I was in the south of Nigeria. Which had already been Christianized The North is Muslim but we had there were missionaries in the north For the most part Nigerians were quite happy to have Americans in their country. Giving them economic opportunities. Didn't feel this rush limbaugh. I did not feel any Nigerians D- You're inside of us as Americans And they thought of each other really in terms of their ethnic group so I was among the Yoruba in the southwest part of the country and they would have thought of themselves as distinct from the East and Americans. We weren't even that important really right but we were offering some economic opportunity and Education which was really important to them so attacker sees this world that he likes and befriends people in Nigeria and he comes back to a world stiffer and that kind of leads into question about the tally. Book is called Swimming Between Worlds. And that idea come to you really was that Title that you latched onto no no. The the press was we had decided on another title and they. You know marketing decided. No that won't do these. Two worlds account works. It works beautifully but my agent. I was walking round my front yard and we had minutes to spare and we came up with it. And it's been it's perfect and it's quite autobiographical. Actually I've been swimming between worlds all my life and I was lucky named after the baby was born right exactly. I had working titles but I'm GonNa tell you what I won't ask. Okay look a brief bit about Kate. And we're GONNA have a little short read about Kate here. And second but Tell us about Kate's character Because you've got the you've got to white character in Taqwa who's GonNa come back and try to force some social change but then you've got a right so Tankers you might have been able to tell from the intro this kind of a middle class but also working class. I mean data and sucrose res now second grocery but They're not that elevated in Winston Salem Society except that was a star football player so that was part of his being town. Hero at Rental side and cates related to the Hanes and the Hanes of course had a lot of wealth and One of the primary industries of the city and so she's really Right up there with with the class of Winston Salem so they went to high school together but she's two years behind packer and they observed each other in their different worlds but weren't really friends until she he comes back and they run into each other at the store when he starts working there. And you can tell. This is going to be a little bit of a love story. It starts early but then the they've got different viewpoints and they're in different social standing to some extent the world's changing around them case. Not sure about how she likes the change and Tucker's ready to jump in exactly so I mean so you you know. The writer has to have a conflict. They can't be on the same political white plate going to support the citizens right right right and so One reality of Kate's life is that she's lost both of her parents and different very sad ways and her brother lives on the coast her younger brother and so she's a bit of an orphan. She has a beautiful house In West end but she is alone and so she. She might be a different person if she weren't in such a fragile state but given that and her link with the upper class community in Winston Salem. She just doesn't want to rock the boat and of course it's very typical of of very well meaning white folks but she's trying to find her own density as well which you you delve into in the book with her career wanting to be a photographer not something that women did on their own right and that time as much but there's a little piece here what speaks to her love of literature so kate went to Agnes Scott at college and she was an English major but while she was there Someone gave her a camera and she I think she was working on the the student newspaper and so she gets a camera and she learns to use it. It's it's called the brick. This was a popular kind of camera. argosy three. I think is is the official name of the camera. But in this particular scene she's thinking Out of her grief about literature. The subjects of great literature didn't teach kate anything she didn't already know that life was sad and lonely or tragic and lonely though occasionally relieved by humor and a great love such as she had felt for her father. What the study of literature taught her was it. The way to deal with life was through the perfect arrangement of words. A novel contained an ordered world. Even if the subject was the chaos of war a sonnet was world in fourteen lines. Even death was made more complete in literature because it was written in this order. Her father's disappearance was nothingness whereas a written account of death was substantiated and could be dealt with so literature re leave of absence and not through abstraction but through detail literature was pain organized with the symmetry of Camelia Nice so We know a little bit of back. she she's going to be a stronger woman than you start her out to be the course. Another thing about novels is people change. You'll have a good knowledge either. In fact she changes Quite a bit yes she does so we got that going for us. But let's talk about the world of race from two different points of view at the beginning And we've got a reading here that We're going to see it. From two sides see it from tanker side and from her side and involves An African American whose come to pick up some milk and an event happens. And then you'll see a later reading here seeing where. Kate sees him for the first time running through her backyard. But how they see. This person is totally different. Yeah exactly talk about that. So so it's the same day attacker seen happens a little earlier than cates but this is the African American character. Who's been this? We don't know that yet. The reader doesn't know the character sent now it And he is in west end and he comes to the grocery to get some milk and when he leaves he's He's accosted he's Yeah so that's what we're going to read first. And then when he's trying to get out of the neighborhood he actually goes through cates alley and she's outdoors and sees him and then has a very different perception of him. Okay let's start first with the reading we're attacker comes into contact with with this character gains said before. I begin this section. I would just like to say that. It includes a racial slur That I include in the novel as a witness to the times standing tack. Her saw everything he had missed. The men had cornered gains at the storefront. They'd swerve to cut him off. Attacker had walked right past when he went to pick up gains his hat. Cool is a cowboy. The older fella lasts at gains for the belt pinned. His arms impressed him against the plate. Glass of the front windows right below the Turkeys twelve cents a pound sign. Hey Tucker said what? Are you doing? The milk bottle was sitting on the window ledge. The younger of the two men looked at. He was a kid really a swath of dark hair cutting across his forehead. Teach that nigger lesson attacker heard from somewhere. He scrambled around the Buick. Heart wrapping the woman in the blue suit backed away. Hey cut it out. He yelled close enough now that he could see the kids pot face. They flipped gains around so he was facing the street. And the boy need gains in the groin. You felt like a rag doll onto the sidewalk. When White Lady is passing the older fellow? Said you get off the sidewalk. The man's belly sagged over his belt. Let's just call down. Tekere said trying to imagine what his father would do. You layer this Story a little bit by bring in another generation as well do it with the last sinister. Tried to imagine what his father would do because now that he's back and he we won't. We won't tell everything that happens in Algeria. But he has some trouble in this way he has to come back and he's trying to work in his father's store And the only job. He has right now. His father's well respected in the community and so his father's trying to walk this line as well between you know what's going on with the racial change and so forth and so he's won his father to talk about his father saying his father again as far as a good guy white guy right and they have a maid and and he might give her a ride home and be gracious with her but she also uses an outdoor toilet. Right doesn't come into the home. That was one of the houses were built. In such a way. Didn't they would be. Perhaps a toilet was built in the car garage or carport or something because the the maid can obviously be expected. Use the indoor right even though they were cleaning it and exactly exactly Completely odd demands that and so he's got this mindset and probably pass on him from his parents sure so so attackers trying to figure out how to honor his father and yet break toward normalcy in his eyesight and not lose too many You know customers nurse. Stewart's right yeah so anyway. So he kind of comes to the aid of of gains who later in the bookie employees in the store with his father's permission But in the same as you said gains takes off his running all he was trying to do is get some milk right and he's trying to get the neighborhood and he goes through Cates airtel right passes near her and Kate sees him so we're going to pick up with that scene now. A movement at the back of the yard caught cates. I A strong looking Negro fellow was striding down the alley. She clutched the neck of her. Pajama top perhaps. He'd not heard her as her raking. It seized or seen her either the young Negro fellow and a jacket carrying a bottle of milk. His head tilted forward as if he wished to avoid contact with the world the milk bottles gleamed like a huge opal. He must have stolen it. The salad paused turned and looked across the art at her. Cape put a hand to her mouth. What if he came in her direction? The back fence was low enough to vault but the man merely lifted the milk bottle to his for it then. He pressed an arm forward as if pushing aside a tree limb and disappeared the alley toward Fourth Street Kate since debris thrill of danger and mystery beyond her reach. Her high school friends had grown up with Negro women who are practically their mothers but she had not her father her father hard white boys to help with the yard. Her parents have expressed their real philosophy about negroes and Kate had little to go on. A squirrel jumped out of a tree and Kate yelped taking a step back toward the door. She had never before considered how close she was to the colored world. Because after all negroes didn't pass this way. She grabbed her father's cut from the picnic table inside. She turned the dead bolt on the kitchen door. So Lane You. You have this phrase because after all negroes didn't pass this way it really was a truly segregated world At the time. And even you know even today so we still got those issues right in those problems of of being separate and communities But then she turns the deadbolt almost like someone in a in a car. Lot might lock their door when someone of the different call you seen that before. Absolutely right we see. We see people cross the road to avoid passing by someone Not Getting on an elevator. Pride being worried And so we we still have These reactions. We sort of false fears right. Absolutely she had a false fear time which it'd be ingrained in her in part because of a section you didn't read here but this going through her mind about an assault that took place and of course that trans ported itself to every possible encounter right like that one right and of course it was reported but we don't even know if it was real right his assaults or sometimes reported Try a black man Upon a white woman that are especially then So how did it come to you to First of all you chose to white characters to tell the story right and and you did bring gains in you. Bring those African Americans in later into the story When packers kind of being accepted into their world do some citizens but What made you decide to tell them from? Two white characters standpoint. Well good question I think that in some ways even though I wasn't in the US as a their age. Right I was on a college graduate as they are in nineteen sixty I think I was kind of trying to work out what it was like for. White folks During this period I wasn't. Here's us in that period. I I didn't experience the civil rights movement in the US Heard about it a little bit and Nigeria So I also Bring gains in. And he's he's a complex character but I didn't think that I was quite Ready to or maybe had the authority to write his point of view Especially a young man a young black man in nineteen sixty. I might feel more up to the task of writing such a character in twenty ten right but in that period of time. What was he thinking? Really so I try to show his actions and he does stand up to tackle often so he. He's a bold character which is why it gets in trouble. And he's getting tackling trouble right but for a good cause right and You know races at the heart of this book attacker wants to help. So we've gotTA reading here it'll be The last reading do before them for the break here. So let's set this. Read up if you would lose sure so A few weeks before the scene Tackle with his parents has seen the report on the nightly news of the four young men in Greensboro who were sitting in at the woolworths and By the way that was such a powerful moment in American history because it was on television right and because folks were watching television while they were eating dinner and so two weeks later. This is accurate in Winston Salem. A group of Winstons State College students and Wake Forest College students planned To go in together to stage a sit in at a woolworth's on fourth street so that's the basis of this scene out of the corner of his eye tanker salt. The boy leaned forward and SPIT ON GAINS. His neck partners squealed with delight. Tanker leaned over the counter and grabbed a bunch of paper. Napkins gains wiped his neck a fag in his nigger. The boy said tax looked down at the counter. Before him and saw reflected in the Polish formica the silhouette of his head a form both absent and present anger simple in hard. Rosenheim and his arms shook in the swath of his coat. Don't gainsaid placing a cautionary two fingers. Attacker's wrist what I tell you a fag in his nigger. The boy repeated gleefully tanker looked at the Negro waitress who had not moved since they sat down more than the Atlantic Ocean separated her from the Nigerian women. He had seen who sent taxi drivers packing when they pulled too close to their market stalls. Nigerian women took up the entire avenue with their dancing traffic control. Be Damned gains began to whistle. Go tell it on mountain. The Negro waitress shifted her stance. Shut that boy up. Someone yelled over the hills and everywhere tanker imagine the words. Many a time he'd heard gain singing in the back room the unpacked. Merchandise the tune relieving the tedium of the day at the moment in Woolworth's. The crowd quieted intact again. The eerie feeling. He'd had that morning at the store when everything was tidied up that he had passed the other side of some mystical boundary and as if the play had reached its climax. Someone called police tax looked the entrance of the store and came a dozen officers. His heart flapped as the walls of the store leaned in so lane. As you're researching this I know you probably had some primary sources newspaper articles that kind of thing but also understand that you actually had the chance to talk to someone. Who's actually there? Yes I did George Williamson. So what he shared with you. Yeah so He narrated the scene and what follows and I followed it very closely. He's the one who told me that. Exactly how they planned it They actually went to the wrong story to begin with and then they came down to the store. That's why the police were there so quickly. They didn't even get to sit down. But I have my townies attacker gains. Get there early and so that's how I got to kind of make up the scene in which They observe what's going on. And there's all this tension and some actual If not direct assault spitting Students and then I have because I wanted to be treated with historical story. I have Tackling gains Sort of slip out. They're allowed to actually because the police officer recognize this as a football player and so he lets him out and then just just as the students are being arrested. All right well Interesting Times interesting story listeners. When we come back from our mid roll break we're going to do our writing life segment. We're GONNA talk more about swimming between world with the lane. Neil or so. Please stay with US listeners. It's hard to believe that we're coming to the end of season five with this episode though Er and season six. We'll be launching soon. We'll talk about that during the one hundredth episode which polices April the twenty eighth of this month. Talk about season sex. We'll talk about what's coming under the covers and we'll just talk about the podcast little bit during that upset before them. We've got a special episode next Tuesday in honor of national poetry month. You've got five local poets Come on and read some of their work Shane near Kia flow Blues Kathy Collins and Jay Ward Alley. They GonNa read several poems each. But they're gonNA talk about their journeys as poets and they're GonNa talk about the of poetry and this day and time so it really should be a great episode so ten in next Tuesday for that. I'd also like to invite you to consider joining our email list if you're not already a member because we we've begun to improve our newsletter providing information about what's coming over the next couple of weeks we put this biweekly basis and we'll ever formation and they're also about a new way of the show and pay you can engage with us and you'll get a free book if you join us well so hey you got that that look forward to as well so consider joining our email list and we can engage with your beer and finally. I just like to say that I'm proud of more than done. With our patron on page of the authors of stepped up to come into the studio and record some really interesting and engaging episodes on craft That I think you'll find found helpful and entertaining so tune into that you find out more patriotic on Pat Oreo N. DOT COM Slash Charlotte readers. Podcast all one word. It's how listeners can help us To fry some of the cost putting out these two shows a week and Yes if you'RE WANNA look into that and Think about getting some of that content and helping the podcast. We sure would appreciate it. Let's get back to the episode. We're back with author Elaine Neil or author of swimming between worlds the the book that we're featuring today on Charlotte's podcast Elaine. Authors sometimes really wring their hands on what they're going to write their next book about whether I book about headed How did that handling and go for you and had you ended up landing on this topic? so place so important to me and I had written this novel set largely in West Africa in eighteen fifty and thought. I Okay Elaine. let's do a more near American novel I don't know that I can ever give Nigeria entirely but So I think where do I want to be in my mind and I chose Winston Salem before anything Then I chose the year. Which was the year we lived there and I chose the special. It's where do I want to be in my mind and then I did one little. Google search in the first thing that showed up in nineteen sixty was the Senate that. Allworth and everything from and so. That's that's an interesting way to go about it. You know a lot of times when you take writing classes you have prompt. You might have a picture. You might have a phrase. You might have a story that you use. Your prompt was finding a place. Where do I wanna be because for me? Writing is always about getting home. It's about being an when I say country. I don't Kn- can be county derived town getting to a place. I WANNA be a place. I want to live in my imagination. Okay well let's talk. This is a great segue into the writing life segment for the show here. You teach English But you also teach creative writing correct How does that help your own writing? Well there's nothing better for a rider than to read great literature so reading the classics having taught for years and years and years I think was enormously helpful when I decided to write a novel It didn't save me spending ten years on the first one right That's how check you probably had a lot of other things going on I did. I was still working teaching and I'm teaching now But I knew where to look to find out how to do things. Like how do you get a character into a room? How do you build atmosphere? How do you create dialogue right? How do you do all of these things so instead of going for an MFA program where someone told me that I went to Henry? Change Our went to Cormac McCarthy or write your welty I went to all these writers or Michael Dodge Right international scope because I teach world at two. Yeah so So That's how literature has been so helpful to me as a writer and just do teach as lawyer for many years and sometimes I would teach Continue Education courses and I still do but every time I do I would learn something new in the process or am I reaffirm. Some things that have been paying close attention when you teach creative writing. Ut's courses they help. Reinforce some of the ideas that you incorporate into your own writing well sure I mean I learned from my students They'll do something in fact the idea of having Gains run into both of these characters but in different places on the same day came from student loss. Great Yeah and so. Since you're a teacher what do you tell your students on the first day of their creative writing? What do I tell them? Follow the syllabus. Okay well one thing I really believe in is. It's not so much right what you know right. What's most authentic to you and I think I didn't write sooner about my life in Nigeria. Because I was embarrassed by it when I was going to graduate. School and Post. Colonialism was the big theoretical. I embarrassed that my parents had been colonialist that they had been southern Baptist missionaries that it seemed very unsexy to me when I was reading construction or write these Very contemporary theories and Critiques of colonialism. And I thought it but but you know this had begun much earlier actually when I was a little girl young girl come to the US. And I would be so out of it and my little cotton frock and the girls. I'm supposed to look like or wearing these villager blouses and their regions. And all those things so I thought everything about where I came from was was kind of embarrassing. Yeah and so. It wasn't until I was very sick that I decided to write my memoirs than it was. You know No help no-holds-barred out there right so you tell your students to be authentic On the first day class. What do you tell them on the last class? I hope I wouldn't wait till the end of class. Okay maybe this is why I say this reminder Believe in the universe that there's something about writing if you stick with it if you really work That's miraculous things begin to come together. And you're somehow in tune with something I don't know I may not still be southern. Baptists but I have a spiritual straight and I believe. There's there's something Helping us whether it's just our own genius. I don't know but I think it's there's a kind of genius at work that ripples all through the universe so now since I've got a An English teacher and a creative writing teacher in the studio got someone who's written several novels and your memoir and everything so this process of getting started. How do you started as writer when you're putting the book together? How do you get started like I'm starting a new novel? Now right yeah you you knock your head against the wall I tell. Some friends recently My new book is alive and ugly. But that's better than beautiful and dead us. That's a good way to look. Yeah and so I just have to keep writing this ugly book until I can make it beautiful but I have to figure out where it's going and I figured out by talking to people by just writing I have to show up in and sit down and write and I have to do research Which Doodoo I I to it all this. I do it all at once because I have never written about something. I don't know anything about right so you do research before you start a little bit Well with this one no because already knew a great deal. It seems as though it's going to be set in Raleigh it's The main character is going to be in her fifties. She's a curator of African art at a museum very much like the North Museum of art. So there's a lot that I already know but I don't know I didn't know the plot and yeah that's the hard part to figure out you can even have an instigating action. But what the heck's going to happen so which do you enjoy better? This idea of putting that first draft together or coming back in and polishing revising. I really love revising It's scary as heck to ride the first draft and to just keep going and laying down clues for yourself when you don't really know where you're going now. Some writers outline. I doubt I wanna see what I discover. Yeah you're excited about That on So where's your musing out? Where does is hang out on my shoulder. I have yeah Where do you hang out when you're talking to your news in a quiet place It can be outdoors. But it's more generally in my study or I go to writing residencies and I have a studio and I can be quiet and Then I do spend a lot of time looking out the window and a bunny comes in the buddy goes and I'm still thinking but there have to be ours ours so you like quiet. I like quiet though I have learned that I can write. Well when I'm far enough in or revising I can write with Jackhammer going off if I if I have to so no music just discussing us and what kind of activities interfere with your writing emphasize that my students and they're not really interrupting. They're they're giving me the opportunity to have a livelihood and My dog my dog Sam. Who wants to be walked? But then you know it's there's a wonderful old kind of give and take between writing and taking a walk because things will come to you as soon as you leave and go into a different space you'll think of something else So given that we I live with my husband and the dog On the days I'm writing. I am not that interrupted by many things I've ever learned to tell friends at the door. They happen to call. I'm writing so You have to really be disciplined about that. I think and as a teacher can ask you this I ask authors. Sometimes this question Since your instructor to I'll ask you You've been teaching for awhile. You've been writing for a while. You get these books out knowing what you know. Now what would you tell your younger writer? Self to make her a better writer when she got started to trust myself to trust my self to pick up my material to And to be bold I think to be bolder. Boulder We're riding especially now and some Highly charged times and. I don't think it's time to be timid. So yeah I wish someone had encouraged me to be bolder. Sooner and to really push the limit on the material I have Bush towards the limit. A great great answer. And we've got We've got two more rates here that we're going to do and in that process We're going to have a bold action. I think about tanker because he's exposed to people that Were sort of being Tolerant intolerant. So I if you would just set the scene up force okay so About maybe two thirds of the way through the novel attackers. Mother approach him about going to hear a preacher. Who's going to be in town a Baptist? Preacher who's going to be preaching and his going got an idea for on a revival tour and she thinks she can pull tack her into this since he's interested in Nigeria and so it it turns out that they do go and And Kate goes with taxes. So it's Kate attacker and his mother sitting up in the balcony. Okay so the moment. I'm picking up here in this. Seeing the sermons over reverend ransom. What should we do about the Negro problem? All this activity going on here citizens and such. What do you think about it? Well that's a good question ransom said I've gone to God about it after all. I'm getting ready to go to Africa. Folks may ask me about this very thing. We're hearing some demands from our colored brethren about rights the right to sit at lunch counters to gain employment in white owned establishments. There's talk of desegregating public amusements. I respect Negro people for their desire to better better their lives but we have a special situation in this country. We've learned to get along in our separate communities. Negroes have created some fine colleges certainly colored folk have their own beautiful churches that preach the word of God but in social situations. I don't condone integration. Especially where young people are concerned. I see a lot of danger there. He paused as if he were waiting on. God for an update. I'll be praying with you about all of this on my travels. Carry it with you. Reverend ransom lifted his head so the disk as seemed to depart the church and aimed straight at heaven. Thank you the man. In the third row said a collective sigh went up from the congregation. Tanker fell to chill at the back of his throat. His mother was turning to a page in the hymnal. He stood if I may tanker said projecting his voice from the balcony now. We can't keep the reverend here all night. The minister said it's all right. Reverend Ransom said one of your fun. Young men here wants to say something. Someone was cater. His mother was talking on the back of tax jacket. I've been to Nigeria Sir for a year and a half on a building project. I was welcome there like a brother. I've never known smarter more industrious or kinder people. What a witness. Reverend ransom said. I appreciate that word from you. My point reverend ransom is the Nigerians treated me as they treat one another or better. I am not a Bible scholar as you are but I do know. The Bible tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Why doesn't that include Negroes? Why not show them the courtesy of sitting next to you at a lunch counter? Jesus say with everyone. I remember that from Sunday School Mile Lord a lady. Tha Tha tax left. Said attackers hands were shaking. And he put them on the Pew in front of him and held high son Reverend. Ransom said there's a time for every season under heaven but as a man who seeks to know the will of God in all things I must tell you that what is good is also complex and getting. There's more complex. The ultimate good is to lead people to salvation. I'm sure you can agree with me on that. God bless you as they bowed their heads for the prayer Tucker kept his eyes open. Reverend ransom was intoning. The prayer full of high flying phrases as the evangelist reached a high point tanker let go of the Pew in front of him and looked at his palms turning his hands over. He observed to skin and considered it as he never had before. Not even in Nigeria. What did skin main? Really? What was the difference? And that's a Atlante those last two lines or something probably that Everybody should be asking themselves right. What what difference does it make what color your skin is? When it comes to jobs when it comes to equality when it comes to opportunity when it comes to people that you pass on the street or in the parking lot or in the store he tried right. He tried to stand up and talk he did. He was herb was he really heard no of course not right. Because the religious imperative of of conversion can trump everything right and That's what the this ministry uses Well this may be an issue. We should address but the but I'm going to do the more important thing I'm going to save Sol's more about it's more about saving souls. It's not about Equality on this earth. It's not about justice but of course that's exactly what Jesus was about so and we're not even You know we're only about three quarters of the way through the book here right so there's a lot still to happen in this book but ultimately and Maybe not above all but sort of coursing through this entire book is this relationship. That's been developing between attacker and Kate and Kate is opening up right. She starting to see the world in a different way partly through tack her but also partly through switch she sees a some injustices ourselves such as such as children checking out books from the library or how they go about doing children not being able to. That's what I mean. Yeah of a certain race. And and so. We've got a scene here later in the book We're attacker and Kate or together. They just talks a little bit about their relationship. So Elaine if you could set this up force Sure so I guess I was wanting to be in Winston Salem but being North Carolina. I also wanted to get these characters to the beach in the course of the novel Closer to the end they take this trip and they go to the beach together and they've had dinner and it's the evening this is Caitlin Taecker. They reached a bench at the end of the pier and sat down. An austerity seemed to invite Kate. Perhaps she thought her father. The wind was mild with only a hand of chilled. Come late in the night. Fishing boats bobbed rocked occasionally tackle her to waive smack a hall. Kate sat silently next to him. What are you thinking? He said I'm trying to remember a poem by Robert Frost. She said a snow poin. We read it in high school. I can't remember how begins. There's some question. She closed her eyes. The Woods are lovely dark and deep. I remember that and miles to go before I sleep. She spoke as if she were in covering all she had been lonely for all she had held inside. He wondered if she had carried. These thoughts for years unwrapping them in laying them before him in this talk of winter and woods and miles to go as they sat before boats bobbing appear on a May evening. He pulled her to him and her hair smelled of salt. He felt the sun still in it and kissed her and tasted sun and salt in her mouth and listened to the SURF and wind. His hands tied around cates. Waste somewhere a bell sounded young law right. That's a good place to go to exactly exactly so Obviously there's more things listeners are going to happen in this book. We're not gonNA reveal the ending here but Water will come into play right. Yes often you're out and on the cover the book here. You got a picture of a huge swimming I won't call. Swimming hosts a large swimming pool. Is that an actual shot of a no there. There never was a pull in a Hanes Park. The novel fictionalized is this that there's going to be put a pool in Haines part. No that's not an actual picture but it's a it's a great one is really good. But you're exploring in that part of the book this idea of the races. Not Mixing Your Public Park in your building this public pool right right there in in west end. He's got an architectural job. Now yeah part of the landed this job he just couldn't he just couldn't pass it up and said that's toward the end. The tension really Ratchets up Because it seems that he's betrayed gains by Okay sat with him at the lunch counter but now he's involved with the swimming pool which correspond children will not be or no black person will be allowed to enter so line you've Obviously been touring about this book talking to different book clubs and events so bad it In lead you to probably talk about some issues that maybe you wouldn't normally talk about regular novel that has a love interest or something. Has that been a good experience for you to to talk about these issues absolutely It's been overwhelmingly positive. I I think Putting the the political and the love story together is a wonderful way to dry out the the conflicts and complexities of Of political events. Because there's always something it's sake that's very human Whether it's a child or a love affair beloved We're so We're always making decisions in relationships when we're not singular and So I think that people have been Compelled by I've been really grateful tackling Kate In making a good team and they and they fight for what they believe is right but of course there's always some twists and turns out some demons and some things that happen so yes Good stuff I'M GONNA have information links in the show notes Some pictures of Elaine is well there and If Mesh met how to contact her through websites and stuff. So Elaine thank you so much for coming out of this. It's been so delightful. You really do did this. Sub Beautify. I'm so grateful thank you well. That's it for today. Another found author giving voice to the written words next Tuesday. We'll have another in-depth episode with readings in conversations about the written word and the writing life of a local or regional author before then be on the lookout for another under the covers episode where we do much the same thing we do here but quicker and sometimes away from the student because there are just too many good authors and not enough time. If you like what we're doing please consider leaving a short written review on Apple podcasts or the podcast platform of your choice because when you do our authors voices travel much farther and wider podcast land. And if you're inclined to help US Cup authors give voice to the written words and you'd like some member only content cultivated by authors in. Me Is our thanks. Please consider becoming a member supporter. You can find out how to become a member supporter and more about today show and all previous episodes at Charlotte readers podcasts dot com and you can keep up with news about the show by joining our email and engaging with social media. We promise not to Spain me because well that takes too much time and if you do join our email list we'll give you free e book written by me. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate it until next week. I'm landis wait for Charlotte readers podcast.

Kate Nigeria Winston Salem US Elaine Neil Winston Salem Charlotte writer cates wake forest university Tucker Winston Raleigh Landis Wade Nc State University State College Charlotte Reverend ransom
 Inside the mind of the bullshitter: Science Weekly podcast

The Guardian's Science Weekly

31:11 min | 1 year ago

Inside the mind of the bullshitter: Science Weekly podcast

"Ever heard of lab grown diamonds lab grown diamonds are essentially chemically identical to natural ones just made in a lab at light box. They've mastered the process to grow gorgeous gems every time it starts with a tiny piece of LAB GROWN DIAMOND HEATED UP IN PLASMA reactor to temperatures nearly as hot as the sun after about two weeks three times before I decided to do empirical work on the behavior of bullshitting and and and article with the title on Bullshit and everybody always gets a nice chuckle out of it and they think it's really insightful but I read it actually use Code Entrepreneur and wellness for twenty five dollars off the Guardian Hello Hi is that John Yes this is Joan Petrocelli Dr John and one of the most salient features of our culture is that they're so much bullshit my words but those who princeton philosopher Harry Frank I feel that the more we know about when it is going to occur like under what conditions are we most likely to be bullshitted by others if we have a good handle on vert from his seminal nine hundred eighty six essay titled on Bullshit and he didn't leave it there on the ubiquity of bs he added the Petrocelli Wake Forest University professor of Psychology My specialty is experimental social psychology. Let's see I've been here for this my thirteenth year and I'm actually on Sabbatical so you actually you actually made me come to campus today that will be better bullshit detectors this is signs week detecting bullshit because I didn't think anyone was gonna take it seriously but I couldn't think evy more pervasive I'm to to talk with anybody actually and my wife is is is tired of me talking about it with her so it's it's good to have new set of years a big subject for academics I'm interested in why you decided to make this part of your formal studies yeah it actually goes back at least seven years just unknowns about the S it's Titians I thought I would test the kind of folk notion that you can't bullshit a bullshitter to me that's an empirical plane minute something a lot of people say but scientists that's an empirical claim so I thought I would try to test that I'm in sample and this week quake everyone knows this each of us contribute is share but we tend to take situation for granted and Frankfort was so there's I had I had read philosophy paper by Harry Frankfurt in nineteen eighty six paper is actually just a twenty page wean bullshit and ally actually mean there is a distinction very very fine distinction again in order to lie you have to know what the truth is I and prevalent social behavior than that of bullshitting despite this John Found little in the academic literature apart from of course Harry Frankfurt and Gurus and self help you know medicine types of people that will use try to make things sound we'll hear from two researches who've taken up the mantle improving the mind the bullshitter all in search of new insights that could help us fight back abstract beauty which was actually put together by computer that had no had no concern for truth all right so it's technically ESA he wasn't talking about you know oh it's raining today and I forgot my umbrella that's bullshit or or or my horse lost in the race this is bullshit no interest no attention no focus on the truth at all so what the bullshit or says oftentimes I feel so sorry about that he's guilty from this oh no that's okay no this is this is fun he's what hoops is talking about was when people clearly do not care about the truth and they communicate without any regard thing he felt that the liar actually does have some interest in the truth relative to the Bullshitter I was going to ask you about the difference traces with the lack of a coherent theory of the s the he put forward his own and in doing so he launched a field of psychology that continues to grapple with some of the great on the can actually do that but they like reading these ideas and I don't get it but I mean it's good to get out the house isn't it yes yes look bullshit has been around forever but it hasn't been tradition what exactly he believes and how that translates into something that can be applied to make my life better and I haven't met any bullshitting but it was put together in semantically correct a syntactical correct way using just some basic word the liar is trying to distract us from some truth or trying to convince us of something otherwise whereas the bullshitter has really for the truth or established knowledge empirical logical semantics systemic knowledge which you need to find is very different from line more interesting are much more profound nobody really knows what they're talking about like I challenge most people who Deepak Chopra books to actually tell me number of years ago but I was talking with my friends about three of us about the new Batman movie that had come out okay an opinion about everything any kind of issue that's going on even if we don't know anything about it and I can give you an example I know this happened exams and a lot of times I will include essay exams open ended essay exams and that's that's sort of a classic version of this see what's going on so that they can connect with other people because we are social animals and we have a need to connect and and to to speak about just to engage in the conversation that was going on so I think certainly when when people ask for directly be accepted and and to communicate with other people so a lot of times we feel as though we supposed to have even if it doesn't make any sense what is the motivation what is the overall goal of the bullshitter maybe even half the time that is actually correct but the bullshitter no it right because they have no interest in in in the the work that Frankfurt actually had a finger on early was just the anything that cues an obligation to share an opinion ride to wanting to understand how to best detect and possibly dispose of bullshit so I I feel that the more we know about when it is going to occur like under what conditions are we most likely to be bullshitted by others if we have a good handle on that truth you get a lot of them sort of pseudo profound statements in this field thank you and I know it's been talked about in in papers before what is this pseudo of sort of bullshit that has that has often generated on on essays right but that is directly you know so when a student you know there's a there's a lot of money made selling books and and doing whatever else they are that that that people you know they they like to hear and they like to think refunded T- that research is thirty my my favorite or give you an example I is hidden meaning transforms unparalleled cool resources that monitor or and help people maintain and control their thoughts feelings and behaviors and we know when when a some of my work has looked at what we've we've called self regulatory resources which are basically your basic psychological what's that q profundity they're the type of words that that you'll hear a lot of the the alternative medicine think well I think there's a number of of goals and there's probably dozens of them actually one of the ones that has emerged not so sure that he knew that I knew hit and watched yet so I think he I mean he probably you know in his mind went into former Batman movies that he was able to to wants to get at least partial credit they they can be as their way through you know several essay questions and I usually give them a little bit of credit for people are depleted of their regulatory resources when when they feel tired not only are they not only the more receptive feel accepted and so that he was just winding you up right now I mean I think he he was he knew that he hadn't watched it and likely to bullshit but the the one that was was quite telling was knowledge and people believe to bullshit content and less sensitive to the difference between evidence based information and bullshit but they're also the conversation and you know shaking his head and not in you know kind of adding in as if he had watched it again it was just there there's a need to connect if if if the conditions are right if they're tired of they feel they can get over on someone or or get a few extra you know bucks on on sale fine but that's so so we have a number of cases where people directly ask it from us but a lot of these other cues are very subtle it's these this is what John Calls the ease of passing bullshit hypothesis meaning dot in certain situations we might all find ourselves spouting some kind of we'll be better bullshit detectors and can you give us some tips if you like do we know who who is most likely to do it whether it's people who and people do this all the time it's one of the reasons why people might you know watch a news program or read the read the newspaper or or check twitter they've got more knowledge than the audience so that they can they can get away with bullshit because it's going to be easier as you would think all right well these look more at the the individual rather than the act shall we say why did you choose to look at that aspect of it well that is directly directly they were going to have to explain their answers their reasons to a sociology professor who actually I is actually an expert in those very areas they were genuinely concerned with with evidence and truth when they wrote that statement I believe that that's undercut quite a bit for a position or to feel as though they actually know something that they can contribute now I'm a professor at a university and so I give people are are less likely to be s because they've got the facts they've got the knowledge relative to the rest of the world in this in this domain but again I think that it's a little bit of a crazy task to try to measure someone's bullshit propensity or the title cues that most interested John when it came to the question of why bullshitters choose to bullshit and this was really I guess the subject to your twenty eighteen paper and I know damn well that my other friend who joined the conversation later had not watched the move but he was contributing so I think the bullshit scores are probably actually hire they're actually stronger than the data suggest but we've got a report the data that we get so coming up after this short break ever heard of lab grown we might call bullshit frequency because everyone does it and by definition if you say that bullshitting is your degree to which you know you're bullshitting Emmons lab grown diamonds are essentially chemically identical to natural ones just made in a lab at light box they've mastered the process to grow gorgeous gems every time and he cues that make it easy to get away with you're GonNa get bullshit now people who are novices and of domain if they know they're speaking with some that is that is when we got the lowest bullshit scores but in all other cases the bullshit scores were moderate to high yes but do these kinds of studies really captured the ubiquity of the phenomenon much John's work asks people to self report that the Savior and experiences an approach which as he points out might throw up some false goals now I never used the word bullshit I never asked people so how much did you one who's an expert and it's one of the things we did in the in the experiments sweet we led participants to believe after speaking about some social issues or to share a viewpoint and that could that could be dozens of different things so I called it my work I've called it the obligation to provide an opinion and it starts with a tiny piece of lab grown diamond heated up in a plasma reactor temperatures nearly as hot as the sun after about two weeks they're ready to wear DVD do as luck would have it we've found someone who's taking on this crazy task of creating a bullshitting frequency scale or less about the subject if it's a particular sort of environment when people tend to do this when they got to bear in the hand or what have you yeah well certainly to the degree to which you're not concerned with the truth or you're not willing to spend a little bit of time to find out what the facts are you know then it's almost impossible not they're ready to wear feed even crack the science of color so you can sparkle in pink white and blue check them out at light box jewelry dot com slash entrepreneur and wellness and should in that essay that I asked you right so but but it's sort of an indirect thing but even in even in the case where I have people rate to the extent to which crack the science of color so you can sparkle pink white and blue check them out at light box jewelry dot com slash entrepreneuring wellness and use Code Entrepreneur and wellness S. for twenty five dollars off welcome back to science weekly of more pathological traits like Machiavellian ISM and extreme narcissism and psychopathy but for my readings on bullshit ways in which people can make errors when they think and when they think about their thinking and when they cognitively reflect on things when they're solving problems and bullshit receptivity anecdotally I know of some narcissists who seem to be big bullshitters so based on that I thought I would test the the frequency scale that you've been working I tell us why it's important to try 'em measure bullshit like this well I think it's important because there's been basically the lion knows the truth but chooses to avoid it the bullshit on the other hand has no regard for Truth and instead is statements this John Shane literal hopes to answer with his bullshitting frequency scale. I'm sharing the troll a candidate in but to

Code Entrepreneur Petrocelli Wake Forest Univers Dr John professor of Psychology Joan Petrocelli Harry Frank princeton twenty five dollars two weeks seven years
268: Karin Hurt, understanding the principle behind the practice unlocks your growth potential

My Quest for the Best with Bill Ringle

31:14 min | 3 months ago

268: Karin Hurt, understanding the principle behind the practice unlocks your growth potential

"Listen small business founders, senior managers and rising stars Bill wrinkle here host of my quest for the best where vicious small business leaders discover strategies and tactics to unlock your broke potential on each episode bringing the inside stories from published accomplished guests who WanNa share their knowledge and experiences, so you can be more successful leading your people managing Your Business and navigating towards more growth than more impact in a changing and challenging landscape. Let's dive in. Joining me today. Is Karen her Karen Inspires Transfer Michelle change with innovative approaches and practical tools as CEO of let's leaders an international leadership development company. She's an executive who brings more than two decades of experience, customer, service sales and human resources, and was recently named on Angst list of one hundred leadership speakers to watch Karen earned her. B A and communications from Wake Forest University and And her master's degree from Townsend University in organizational communication and additional graduate work at the University of Maryland which she teaches at the executive program, her husband David Dyer dedicated to their philanthropic initiative, winning wells, which provides clean water wells to community, struggling with access to safe water throughout Southeast Asia, Karen and her husband and business partner David who was a guest on my quest for best. To sixty five live outside of Washington DC. She's here to talk about her fourth book. Courageous cultures how to build teams of micro innovators, problem solvers and customer advocates welcome Karen. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to have you on the show. One thing I'm always curious about with high performers and people who are doing big things on the world is when you were growing up who someone who influenced or inspired you? Certainly, my father very much, encouraging and the. Girls can do anything kind of thing. which I think was really important to me. And he continues to inspire me and supports the work that we're doing. What's an example of a way? The he supported you when you were younger in order to take on something that you thought just might be challenging or little bit too much for you and with his encouragement. You're able. Able to take it on. Think it's breaking things down. You know asking really strategic questions. What are you really looking to accomplish here? Why is this so important? What is one thing you could do to make this? A success sent by breaking it down and we do this with our children. As well. It helps build confidence because all you have to accomplish one small. Small thing, and then you add on the next thing, and then you add on the next. There's nothing like that positive momentum and somebody cheering you on and expressing that belief in you that you can do it absolutely, what is it courageous culture and do the circumstances ever change that threshold that requirement favorite definition of Culture Seth Godin people like us. Do things like this? This so in a courageous culture. People like us. Speak Up. They share ideas. They advocate on behalf of the customer, and so that is really what we're talking about building here while we talk about building a courageous culture, it's a really challenging time right now you know and sometimes. People say if you didn't have a courageous culture before. Could you have one now? And I would say absolutely because everything people are having to do the best that they can with what they have from where they are right now, and this is a period of so much micro innovation and problem solving, and so in this moment in time this is a fantastic opportunity to really encourage people to speak up and to share their best ideas, and to respond well to what they're doing so that the want to continue to do that again. Again I think there's some really important elements in there we're. We're encouraging leaders to think about the circumstances were in and to be empathetic as well as supportive because there's a balance isn't there and it's different now that we're in a pandemic lockdown and were working from home and more working remotely than being in the office. Wouldn't leaders need to keep in mind to keep that balance intact yet? Also know that they wanNA keep striving for the courageous culture. Culture Yeah, so it really starts with human connection and trust, if forty percent of the people in our research said that the reason they don't share ideas as they lacked the confidence to share, and if you've got people who are not just like working from home or working from home in a massive in a massive prices and people are tired, and then there's all of the social unrest that's happening and so just meeting people where they are and knowing. Knowing in Saint you know. How is it going for you now? What are you dealing with it? I should be aware of. How can I be supportive of you and really starting there, and it's interesting when we were working with a prospect the other day and he's. I WANNA fast finish for the quarter, and that's what I want you to come in and speak about. Is everybody else morale? And he said well I mean it's. It's good and they. These folks are in Washington DC in the middle in there I know that they were in the work that they do. They work with a lot of low income. Folks. There's you know you know there's things on people's hearts and minds in this environment. And I said well. Let's talk about you know. What do you think people are responding to in terms of all of the response and the social unrest and he said Oh. We can't talk about any of that here. What do you mean you can't say it's? It would be inappropriate to talk about anything remotely political as well. I don't think we have to political angle about it, but. We need to meet people where they are. If you just go in and say, have a fast finish going to be incredibly tone death and he was like he just couldn't see it and that's. We weren't the right people to work with them. You know because you need to. You need to make a human connection before you can ask people's ideas, otherwise people say you want ideas to improve the business, but what about me? You don't even care about me kind of abusive where they're just saying. We want you to perform regardless of the stress. You're feeling of the struggle. You're dealing with managing maybe children at home. It just doesn't take into account the circumstances that there people are in so. They are, and then I would start with being very clear about where you need a new idea, so people don't have a lot of extra emotional energy right now to get super creative, but if you say I need your very best idea about how we could help you be more productive while you're working from home so now you're very specific about where you need an idea and somebody could say well. You know what I have got two toddlers, crawling all over my lap between ten and two, but if I could shift my hours around and I could get some. Some work done in the morning and then maybe again later at night. I think I'd be more productive. How would you feel about that right? So that's a very specific idea and so i. think that's the other thing is being focused on what a good idea would accomplish. I hope that everyone listening understands the power of specificity and focused a Karen just called out and lead you through an example that is absolutely critical to really showing that you understand the nature of the struggle that people are going through as really important. Yeah, we're working with one company on A. A program and we're taking about one hundred of their managers through this and we started with. We're not saying. Bring us your ideas. The the senior leader came up with five specific areas. He needs great ideas. And then we're going to work through the craziest cultures process to help people think about those ideas and I know that that's going to be more successful than if we just said we bring any idea you might have you know, and so. He said I need an idea around employee engagement while people are working at home i. need ideas about how do we? We help people process what's happening with the from a diversity perspective and unconscious bias. And then he had three Berry strategic business outcome ideas that he wanted people to think about, and if you could just start, they're being very specific in. If you don't know where you might need an idea, a way to go is to say okay. We a activity. We called only ugly. which is what are we underestimating wants gotta go L. where we losing. And why where are we missing the? Yes, so for example you could say in the next eighteen months for our business. To be successful, not just survive, but to thrive, and then have your team walked through these four strategic questions you will be. It's amazing to me. How quickly new idea surface and that type of conversation to more focused you or when you ask the question, the more able, you are to really tap into people's energy and ideas, because it doesn't create overwhelmed as a blunt question does where you're just asking. So, what do we have to do to make things better? That's terrible question in a situation like this. Absolutely, if you can stay, be as specific as what's one thing that sticking off our customers right now now everybody can come up with one. You know. One of the things that I think is very important is the idea of curiosity and in your book you talk about somebody who wasn't getting a lot of traction Ouza. CEOS first name Steve I think he could fill in more of the details, but he wasn't getting the traction with a new idea that he wanted, and he needed to ask better questions and to approach it differently. Can you walk us through that? Yeah, so sweep is in a energy company that's based in the East Coast, and as you can imagine right, they things are changing so rapidly in that industry, and so they were really trying to think about. How could they it and expand their offerings of products and services, and he had a really rate new program that they were about to roll out, and as they were going through, he was doing what we've called the clarity work. Work incredibly well. He pulled. He did up a town hall. He pulled everybody together. He explained how this was so important to their overall business strategy, and how aligned with their other strategic initiatives, so he did a great job of connecting what to why he spent a lot of time working hands on with his leaders make sure they understood it, and they all had a five five five communication strategy communicating things five times five different. Different ways in a way that make sure that the people were really getting what he was why this was so important and what they needed to do, he was talking very specifically with people in every single role about how they fit into this, so all the clarity stuff was there, and he was still not getting the traction that he needed, and who's getting credibly frustrated so having a conversation with him one day and I said. You're doing all this great. But what if for one week you just showed up curious, and so, what do you mean I'm like? Don't stop telling people. What they need to do, start just being curious about what's actually happening here. And so he was walking through his context center, and he overheard one of his strong reps on the phone, really struggling to communicate with this customer about this new program, and he was about to react then he thought I'm supposed to show up curious. Now you have to approach is very gently if you are a CEO and you're talking to a frontline employees, but he did this well, he said you know. He has put the phone on mute for a moment, he said. My coach tells me that I'm supposed to be showing up curious right now. So. Would you mind if I talked to the customer? and. She was relieved, so he took over the call, and he I introduced himself. Hey, I'm Steve CEO. Curious! My Rep seems to be having trouble explaining an answering your questions. Could you share with me which are thinking about? And said she asked. That, they hadn't even completely thought through, and that was so important to just by showing up curious, I realize that were there were things that we needed to get better aligned from a strategic perspective, and of course trained people in what to say those in response to those kinds of questions soon approaching this without the idea that you have all the answers Steve was able to actually gather information that improved his program and helped others in his company become more comfortable, confident and. And competent was sharing the ideas and details the program because of this conversation is that the gist of the impact exactly? I know that a lot of the CEO's and senior leaders that we work with as well encounter resistance to new ideas, and a know that there's a group of people who are always looking to come up with new ideas and implement them, and aren't having the success gaining the kind of acceptance buying, and even endorsing it where you have people who. Who are really promoters of the idea within the organization in your Book Creative Cultures, you talk about this very directly, and you say that there are five ways that people resist your new idea, a question your motives be. They're still actively working to make your last great idea work. See your great ideas a great idea, but what we're here. There's some skepticism about the circumstances. D flat out the great ideas and great. They're thinking and e. your great idea is only your idea. Idea, no one else is sharing in it. All of who've ever introduced new programs and new ideas with experienced some portions of this. How do you understand and work with at once? You identify the fact that you're experiencing a particular type of Resistance Karen. Yes, so I will take you back to a story of an I was leading a twenty two hundred person sales team at Verizon, so I had the horizon stores so we'd hundred ten stores Maryland DC in Virginia. And I had just been promoted into the sales role. Here's the thing I had my first decade of work advising was all in human resources, leadership, development, training, and development those kinds of things then I went and I lead call centers, so and those were mostly ninety five percent women. Then I get moved into this sales job I have never sold a thing in my life. Thirteen out of fourteen of the of my direct reports were men. And fourteen out of fourteen had been in retail sales for their entire career, so here comes hr chick, but this is not so. I did not have a lot of credibility. Right as I'm bringing new ideas in, and they're saying. Oh, this is probably a diversity, the succession planning move and to some extent I think it was because there just was not a lot of female leadership at that time in the store channel so I had that those headwinds already, but here's the really prickly problem. At, this point in time verizon was not allowed to sell the iphone. At and T. had exclusive rights so may remember the days where it, so we had the blackberry and push to talk, and you know regular for full phones, so I'll team was completely demoralized. Were coming into our stores and they were asking one question. How do I? Put My number out to take my go get the iphone at at and T.. And so I knew one thing clarity. We need to make revenue right. That was my job and I was not gonNA fail the GOP but I did not know how we were going to do it. It really seemed impossible so I thought all right twenty two hundred people. Somebody's gotta be selling something right so I asked for a list of a top. Twenty sales, people and I started following them around so curiosity right going on a curiosity tour and I ran into Yomi now yummy was doing one thing he was asking every single customer. Where do you work? So curious Yami. Why'd you do that? Is that just to build rapport? And he said Ohno. He said rising didn't used to have good small business plans, but now we do, but most of the bit small business customers are with sprint, but here's the thing. People are coming into our stores and in their right pocket. They have the phone that they wanNA port their personal device that they wanna poured out to a t and t to get the IPHONE. But other pocket a lot of the Times there will be a business phone and the business customers right now are too afraid of security issues. They're not ready to use the IPHONES two new so I've got to ask where they work four out of ten times it either they or somebody in their family owns a small business, and if I can figure out the phones in their pocket I porting lines over five and ten twenty lines at a time I'm making bank. So like Oh. This is great now we have an idea. yomas figured it out I. Just have to get my district managers onboard to. How do you think that went? Just telling them both into her. So right? No credibility I've got this idea so I go back and I say yummies figured out they all carrying Yomas Yami. He could sell ice to Eskimos. Only two percent of our sales from from the small business space. This will never work, so they were finding ideas. Why wouldn't work rather than trying something just to make sales right so I, said so here's where you know. Little confident humility comes in I said. I don't know if it will work because I didn't, but I said what I do know. Is that next Tuesday? We are going to have every single salesperson. Ask every customer where they were. And we're going to make it feel like a holiday. So what we did! Was You know we? We decorated the stores with balloons. We did special training with everybody to say you're this day. The requirement is that you're going to ask every customer that where they work all the district managers to. We made a plan so that between all of us we would hit every single store over this nine hour radius of driving. We dressed in costumes and would go in the back of the store and get. Everybody riled up if somebody asked where they worked a customer where they worked and lead to a sale. Sale we asked people to take a picture of them with their customer, or all the phones lined up and tell a quick story that how that worked that how asking that question and send it to a special mailbox, called the small business madness mailbox, which was really just my executive assistant, and then every three hours she was sending out these flyers with a picture and the stories and say you know we asked where where does she work and she? Oh, I own a small daycare center at home and there I sold five lines a small business. And we quadrupled our sales on that day. Not Quadruple our small business. Sales quadrupled our sales up line store sales. Right so I got everybody on a conference. Call the next morning and I said if it could work on a random Tuesday. It could work any day so because if people believe they can't sell, they can't sell. But if you try something and you can isolate what that behavior is basically, we proved in that the idea would work. Now that was the beginning of the by and process, and then from there. Of course we had to do all the other strategic things and get people better, trained and figure out how to position it linked to compensation and all those things, but when I was promoted out of that role, twenty percent of our sales were from the small business space, and we won the president's award for customer girl. So. That is how you have to get people to believe that the idea will work. Give them a taste, right and you. You said you mentioned one of our phases. People question your motives right. If if they were thinking, it was just about me, you know in the succession planning move that creates skepticism. It had to be about them and making them successful. One of the things that I think you did with that Karen. That I thought was so clever as you said I. Don't know if this will work. You went to them and said let's find out together, so you made them your partner in discovering whether it worked or not, and then you reinforced it with. Using email social media. In a day right there, you gave people a chance to visibly see the evidence that it was working. Which helped them convince themselves? This can work if others are getting that result by Gosh. I'M GONNA. Give it even more of a try so that I could be part of that winter circle as well. Yes, exactly, Karen, are you ready for the my quest for best lightning round Oh sure. Let's do it all right so earlier. I asked you about a person who inspired you when you were growing up and you talked about your father when you were a teenager. What's a song? You've found inspiring. Reiger And if you could put a slogan about the work that you do that, you'd WanNa. Remind every key stakeholder decision maker that they had to read it each warning. What would it say on that billboard? Be The leader. You might your boss to be, and then what's the best dollar, so purchase? US made in the last six months. Personally professionally, I would say that has to be the lighting that we put in our. Studio as we've been pivoting to doing a live remote programs. What's the most important habit routine or belief that you've stopped in the last year? That's brought you. The most pleasure or personal satisfaction for me would have really been spending a lot of time particularly since the pandemic is stopping to try to have a concrete plan, you know just to be more open to what might need to happen next and I think that reduction in anxiety has it's been incredible to see what is emerged from that and enabling us to change the way we're approaching and and be more fluid. Karen another principle that is delighted to come across in cultures, was the one of make sure you find the principal within the practice so that you're not just replicating something mindlessly, but your understanding, sometimes it does make sense to clone an existing practice. Other times it makes sense to modify it in order to make it appropriate for that particular purpose. Could you illustrate that with this example or maybe one from your other client work Howie practice? The principle is one of the really interesting things about how we went once we got people's by and that smoke selling to small businesses. The possibility we were hanging at around eight percent and we were kind. Kind of stagnant there and we're like what else, and so we asked each district to come up with an idea to sell the small business that was unique to their market and serve for example, the folks in Washington DC, what are small business customers in Washington city, and they their law firms or consulting firms their fancy and they didn't WanNa come into a store they wanted to be to be. Be So what we did that the group the this manager group there did was came up with this idea of take becky, so they gave everybody who's working in the stores, a stipend to buy more professional close, so people are feeling like they really worked, but that would not work in Cedar Bluffs Virginia Cedar. Bluffs Virginia has a very very very rural and he said well. What would work there? There, you know. Obviously we need the principles we need to connect with our small business customers, but suits are going to create the opposite effect. So what's the principal and that well? This one store was our only store that was actually a log cabin store, and it had a law in a second, a log cabin in a DC area store now. This is now Cedar, bluffs. Virginia got it okay. Cedar Bluffs Virginia and so they have this log cabin. And they said well. What it? Who are our customers well? Our customers are not lawyers consultants. Our customers are contractors and farmers, but the principle is they wanNA. Feel special too right. So they created, took this loft in the cabin, and they created a small business headquarters, so and then they called these customers and treated them very specially, and let's do an account review and and people love that and that store became our number one small business store month after month. So that was really interesting. Now we'll I'll give you one more example. Virginia Beach Virginia now. Virginia Beach. Virginia as you can. Imagine has lots of people coming in the stores in the summer that you could ask where they work. Work but what do you think is happening in February, not as many people coming in the store? Don't have people to ask where find out where they work. How are you going to find out whether they need a small business plan? So what they did was they created what they called a call center in the back of their store, and all that was was the sales reps doing outbound, calling and inviting people who were also small businesses with nothing to do to come in and have a a free. Free Account Review and it worked so the principal in all three of those examples is we need to connect with our customers in a way that will make them feel special, but how it played out in each market was radically different, and that's really illustrative in something that everyone listening can adopt in their own businesses to ask questions of their customers, and also think about it to take a step back from the day to day and think about what would help people. Your customers feel special feel more connected. Connected know that you care about their success. Their multiple examples here that show you how you can do this with not a lot of time money were energy required, but requires that special thought, and that intention to be successful by helping others he asks. You know I think one of the challenges with practice the principle, and while we teach this so specifically it's tempting when something works really well to just immediately go apply everywhere and so in one case. Ask every customer where they work. That did work everywhere. But asking every want to swear. Fancy suits would not have worked everywhere, and so you got to think about you've got a vet through and think about. How would you apply the principle of this practice everywhere? I think it's also true that you're asking people to do these micro innovations, not a full on change to the whole business, but what's one small thing that can be? Be Done as a micro innovation that could make a difference a measurable difference in move the business forward exactly because all those micro innovations add up, and we're in period now where we need the ideas in order to gain traction need ideas in or to connect more closely with our customers, and we need ideas that help people be more effective in the jobs they do. Exactly care and I wanNA thank you so much for joining me on my quest for the best you started off talking about how your father was a great role model and encourage you to do anything and to really break it down by asking strategic questions, and to gain positive momentum you talked about how you've applied this approach and this model within your own business of asking people where you are, and how you can be supportive of where you actually are now rather than making assumptions, you pointed out to leaders listening that their teams and their direct reports may not have a lot of extra emotional energy. So the way that you spend, it is really important. Important and one way to do that is to focus focus and be very specific with the questions you ask so that they're dedicating their discretionary time and energy towards solving problems that have really going to move the needle forward in the business. You helped us with questions and talked about different specific areas where people can not just survive, but really thrive, and we talked about the case that the example is Steve at the East Coast Energy company where he needed to pivot and expand, but he wasn't seeing that traction, but through his ability to be curious, threw his support that you gave him to be humble and ask for questions. He gained ideas that were invaluable. Invaluable to moving idea forward and helping others embrace it within his company, and then you're so generous in sharing the examples you had working as the team leader in sales at Verizon where you had a lot of people reporting to who were skeptical of your credibility, and what pull people together was this need to increase sales during a period where he didn't have the product that everyone was looking for and by doing one of these micro innovations, but asking that question. So, where do you work that you got from Yummy? Where do you work really unlocked a lot of sales potential within that company, so for these reasons and so many more I. WanNa thank you. You, Karen Hurt Co author of Courageous Cultures WanNA. Thank you so much for joining me on my quest for the best. It has been absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much Karen before we say goodbye for now. Can you tell me where we can find out more about you and your work on line? Yeah, let's grow leaders. Dot. com is our website where we will be linking to let's crew leaders dot com as well as your social media channels as well as the other areas that we discussed in the interview. Karen her once again. Thank you very much for talking with me and joining me on my quest for the best. Thank you so much. Hi, this is bill and I hope you've enjoyed this podcast interview. In my question for the best, be sure to subscribe on Apple podcast Google play stitcher or your favorite APP, so you never miss an episode full of stories, tips and insights for the ambitious small business leader. Now I have a quick request for you. Please go to apple podcasts and I tunes and gives a rating and review. My team and I really appreciate the feedback and we read. To out what you enjoy and what you want as we develop new content, course materials and a few surprises that we have in store for you when you review my quest for the best you help, other small business leaders find us subscribe to the podcast and joined the community. You can get the insiders newsletter for small business leaders by going to my quest for the best. Best Dot Com. We've chosen a challenging path to make a living and make a difference in the world, and I believe it's important. Share top notch resources with each other, which is why you'll find new episodes from top thought leaders and small business experts on my question the best each week. Thanks for listening and being part of the community. See you on the next episode.

Karen Times CEO Verizon Washington city Virginia Washington Seth Godin partner Steve principal Wake Forest University Michelle executive Southeast Asia Courageous Cultures WanNA David Dyer Apple
#225: Dr. Lari Young - The four essential lab tests that every Lyme patient needs

Lyme Ninja Radio - Lyme Disease

1:02:38 hr | 1 year ago

#225: Dr. Lari Young - The four essential lab tests that every Lyme patient needs

"All the golden calling only. Time for lime ninja radio. Today in Germany radio. I've always asked the question. What, what markers and what, what makes a difference for all the sectors trying to keys? What is the outcome? You're driving for. And how do we know you're actually doing it? And how are end if you are doing it, how efficiently or you get into that outcome. This podcast is sponsored by the lime ninja symptom tracker. I'm so excited to tell you about our new Lyme niches symptom tracker. One of the things I hear over and over again, whether it's talking to a patient in my office or consulting over the phone with the client is just how difficult it is to keep track of progress on their lime journey recording symptoms daily or even weekly gives them too many data points. There's so many ups and downs twists and turns at some point, they get lost and confused. The lime ninja symptom tracker takes all the guesswork out of tracking symptoms with a simple monthly questionnaire once a month is the perfect interval deceive that new supplement or protocol is working right now, when you take the symptom tracker, questionnaire, we give you a simple composite score for the month, but we had big plans, and the data you enter will not be lost as we roll out new features. Best of all, it's free. Just head on over the Lyman ninja Radi. Oh dot com slash tracker. And sign up that's lime an NGO radio dot com slash tracker. You'll be glad you did. Join us every Thursday on I tunes for the latest episode of lime ninja radio. Hello. I'm your host and lime journey guide. Mckay Ricky and this is episode number two hundred and twenty five with Dr Lori young. She's a good friend of mine. I was really happy that she agreed to come on the show and share her knowledge with all of us, we had a lot of fun. Also, I'd like to welcome Aurora, the show producer and brains behind lime ninja radio had low an in this episode you'll learn three main things. What histamine is and how it deals with more than your allergies? How your blood type influences your health problems and why it's important to have flexibility in your immune system. Thanks ROY and a big shout out to all you longtime lime ninjas. You are the reason we have half a million downloads Aurora, and I really appreciate you tuning in, and we'd like to welcome all you new listener. Out there. Welcome to lime ninja radio. You are now officially a lime ninja. Yes. Welcome. And as you know, lime disease is an international problem each week. We have listeners join you from all over the world. And this past week, we've had listeners, tune in from Chile to the Czech Republic, and from Turkey to Tanzania, or tell us a little bit more about this week's guest, Dr Lori young from her website, tied for health dot com. Dr Laura young has a post doctoral fellowship in integrative medicine at Wake Forest university. Dr young trained in medical acupuncture, and functional medicine who Helms medical institute in the institute for functional medicine her passion for holistic healing and bridging the gap between conventional and alternative wellness therapies led her to open thrive integrative health in two thousand twelve Dr young utilizes a functional medical approach to address the root causes of chronic illness, and other wellness issue. Who's she employs a mind body spirit approach and emphasizes the importance of patients taking an active role in improving and maintaining their health. Okay. Mckay. Why did you want to talk to Dr Lu? Dr young, I want to call her. Dr Lori core Dr Lori. She won't mind. Dr Lori has a very interesting. Take on infectious disease, and we kinda skirt around it in the interview. So I just wanna bring it up on top of the table here. She's of a firm belief that a lot of Lyme disease can be treated by balancing out other pathways in the body and allowing the body's immune system to work like it's supposed to work. So she believes that a lot of cases of quantum climb. What's happened is the body's not able to fend for itself anymore, and your hormones are out of whack your cuts out of whack. All these other problems are present and simply giving antibiotics will not bring your body back into balance. Because there's more going on than just the infection. So she brings that to the table. I think that's really important in the beginning of your lime journey when you're really beginning to look at okay, what do I need to kill off in my body? And how are you going to kill it off? Or you're gonna choose antibiotics or you're gonna chew. An herbal route or you're going to support your entire system. In hope that your body can do it actually were kind of hoping that all of those all of the above the antibiotics, and the herbs do work. The other part of the live during that's important is once we've gone through various killing protocols clearing protocols in gotten rid of mold and infections like that. And they're still problems. It may or may not still be an active infection. Right. They're still all these other problems that can be present. So I think it's so important to think outside the tick, so to speak and bring in all these other factors. I think Dr Lori does absolutely fabulous job with doing that. And I know you're gonna love this interview. Hang on to your seats here. She comes. Dr young. This is McKay rookie from lime. And injure radio. Good morning, I'm so happy to speak with you. We've been friends now for a while. And it's been way too long getting you own the podcast, very fired for our time together this morning. We're looking for kit. Thanks now, before we get rolling here. You're an MD how, how does one does day and age? Get inspired to be a doctor because there is so much. That's kind of in the path of being the kind of doctor, you wanna be what, what inspired you to get into medicine. Well, that's a great question. And I'll tell you I had a first career before going on to medical school. And that I rea- really inspired me is go on and complete them at all the medical training. I had a more than ten year career. And doing healthcare, informatics and outcomes, research, and so well at college, and had my first job, I was exposed to healthcare in a cardiac catheterization laboratory, and in the process of being there in a very big Academic Hospital in Boston, I began to see that they were offer -tunities to improve the delivery of health care and to learn to develop the metrics or markers. That show us that not only are we delivering a good clinical outcome. We're doing it at a reasonable cost, and, you know, all taking into account all the factors that define what phony us, so before I did a lot of academic work, and informatics for a while ago decade and published in road. And, you know, wrote software and the belt all the analytics, and then decided to go on and get more academic training because, you know, I wanted more access to be able to take more thoughtfully about. The delivered healthcare at, you know, after ten years, I went on to get a masters and outcomes research, and then on to medical school because I really knew that in order to think more thoughtfully about how we can approve the delivered healthcare. They needed to be have the clinic refraining to be able to think about, so I hit mid light, and went to medical school after that. Now that's a serious midlife crisis. I think so actually, I think I you know, and I kind of went to school in the with that idea that I was interested in at the time wasn't sure, I was going to in a being a clinician or really thinking more 'cause I had already had a company that was developing software systems to track and look outcomes. You know, delivering healthcare and track the outcomes, and that was all their popular back in the nineties, and we were weather birthday come to the table with some stuff around the cardiovascular area. And so, I would I was going to be using the training to be more thoughtful as an entrepreneur to develop more of the analytical software, but as you've been as I realized you can't set far afield from the clinical, the main prudent stay relevant, and whatever kind of innovation that you do so straddling that divides. And I'm doing now where I have an office practice that really. Inspires. My thinking is, I'm thinking more broadly about how they'll systems and approaches treatment of problems that are effective and clinically as well as my cost one of you and a resource point of you for the patient. You know that I absolutely amazing wasn't aware of all your background there. And usually when somebody's I'm gonna call you a numbers. Jockey was a working with numbers data. They don't often what branch over into the clinical world, and then, even if they do for some training like you've had maybe they get into public health, get a PHD in public health or something like that. But then to open up a private practice to make sure that your ears to the ground. So to speak is, is truly remarkable. Thank you for me. I learned, you know, you're learning trenching, and when I started my work. I was at, you know, Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. So we worked with a lot of airy high-calibre cardiologists that we're doing very state of the art technologies at the time to treat coronary artery to the and the young, you know, twenty something I came into the scene. And I quickly realized that, you know, people that, that there's all kinds of different care being delivered from patients and some of which is thought to make them better, but truly maybe not. And how do we know what we're doing is the right thing to do, and truly that sounds like a an obvious question that in most industries outside of healthcare and manufacturing, people have know what they're doing is, you know, uniform, and deliver the be older and why people don't buy their product, but as you know, in healthcare, it's easy for people to kind of pass the buck, and, you know, patients, get passed around costs, get shifted and buried in all the different players in that healthcare model of reimbursement. Harper people take responsibility for the work that they do and to understand the whatever they have done on behalf of the patient, if it's really doing what they can doing. And so that's a basic ideas of that were interesting to me, very young, allow me in not opportunity in that setting to begin to develop a data set or a data model that really described what we were trying to service. We're getting to our patients and then we analyzed what we were doing. We were often sometimes prize that. Wow, there's opportunities to think about this in every way. And so that was really my first introduction to how data in clinical care. And I think it all came more naturally me to think that way. And I guess the programming and the computer science sided it wasn't a wired skill, but it became like a pencil for right on a piece of paper, you need to be able to learn the computing piece that you can actually model the information trying to do. And once I learned in had some practical skills. Around the programming. And the computing side, the typical analysis part came also more naturally to me, you know, there's a lot of what you can learn. So I'm information if it's really reflective of what you're doing. And, and I think that's really missing and health care right now is people being responsible for their outcome, and understanding what cost is coming to society to the patients to that early experience has fern into my consciousness and, and I realized revealed a strong dry for me in a passion towards thinking about how are we going to help people, untangle the chronic issues that they have where do we start? What's the most effective strategy? There's probably a lot of effective strategies, but what is what our strategy? They get people to outcome. Delivering the result at a cost that people can bear at a personal level, societal level, and the sue interesting because lot of the outcomes that we have in may. Medicine, don't necessarily translate, the quality of life like lowering somebody's cholesterol's, like Woohoo. You're cholesterol's lowered which may or may not be a bad thing. We're not gonna get into that, and doesn't make you feel better, right? Or you're gonna live longer. Does it even matter? But we can measure it. It's cheap to measure, and we measured and it's been a lot of time managing this number and is actually something worth measuring. So these fascinating questions now onto your practice. Do you remember your first lime disease patient? Yeah. Yeah, I do actually. And so when. Yeah. When what was your approach back then? So I want to get to they'll the story of like what was your approach then? And then what's volved, and then we'll get into these biomarkers that you wanna talk about that. I want to talk about to well, the first nine patients that I saw I mean, they come in, and they've been diagnosed elsewhere, relying, and they had failed a lot of the traditional pharmacologic approaches using traditional antibiotics that people were getting. And, you know, by the time they arrived at the door they're billing, very debilitated, and, and now only their health, but also financially they, they a lot towards their recovery, and aren't making progress. So for me, my earlier, coaches were not a lot different than what I'm doing although I think I, I think I've pare down the markets. They give me a lot of information, but began to kind of go back looking at it from more of a metabolic level. What was going on? I have always been. Able to treat my patients using the tackle products, and never really relying upon any antibiotic therapies, so look, let's polls there for a second 'cause that's you. So you come from data. Right. You're this hard Gord Dade data analytic person you say, I'm really need to get into medicine. So I understand what the source of this is in how to apply the information that I'm, I'm pulling out of here. But then how do you make the switch from pharmacological ze to botanical 's 'cause that's not a normal thing to do? Either. Somewhere, my heart. I'm probably a national house in my soul. And I think I have always had thought both intellectually Scott from scholastic, or scholarly point of view that, that the body has seven eight capacity to heal and regenerate itself, and that, that what we need mostly comes from the complexities of compound in nature and great traditions and systems of medicine events that, that have been for thousands of years time that ever used them have a lot of those products. So I think I was very early of the mindset that, that we need to understand where the body is lacking something. And he just reported body understand. Did you go into middle school school thinking this or did this happen after med school? I when I went to medical school. It was very interesting. I thought that my my singular goals starting school. I was very interested in broad strokes. And it had studied cardiovascular disease. Down to the most done to move detail level of thinking about what is success might be what we're doing an a certain blockage in a certain part of the artery that we can name and we could, you know, really talk about it a success at that very grander level. But when you rap dollars to a human being, and you think about the healing and suffering. If like, how are we going to deal with the human being? And when I went to medical, we gotta remember, I've been working for more than a decade, I would well into my middle of my life there. And I was much more interested in people and less about the part is the parts and service to the whole and I wanted markers that philosophically. When I think about healing. It was also again thinking about, again, you can't can't divorce the mind and the volumes there's only physical rounds, I think of how the body actually need, but what's going on here and not thinking about biochemistry, and then I guess the, the whole notion of natural therapies. Just became an obvious step for me. It was never like I didn't understand that there might be a role for traditional pharmacologic there vs. But I, I guess I've wanted to challenge us thinking, how to do it without prescription passed in my hand, but how do I use natural remedies to encourage the body? Healing processes is it possible to do it without needing to rely on medicine. If you didn't have to because of the downside, 'cause obviously read and studied and go on. But that time, I guess, on something important out that sound up medical school. I realized that a lot of the training that I needed to be thoughtful clinician for people. I didn't really learn and I needed to refrain the kind of information that I had gathered in that little trading to allow me to see it in a different way for me to do that required me to go and see other education. And so I said about developing a list of qualifications or information that I needed. And where would I? Go to the most reputable scholarly place. Get that information to allow me to you is an access information. I learned in school very traditional, but to see a different way. So the functional medicine training happen the medical acupuncture training happen. The framing and full of every all the skills that I wanted to wire expose me to this kind of these idea. So it was with that, that I was doing very rigorously right after I finished. I was seeking more education and I realized I had to take responsibility for myself as a clinician to, to develop my curriculum of understanding what makes people suffer right? And then how did they help them heal and I didn't think that the schooling that I have while there's information delivered? Let's given to me in a framework that really was oriented with that idea. It's just absolutely remarkable. And I mean talking about swimming upstream the. The standard and I've a friend who's been on the podcast, a couple times name is Dr rob Abbott and he left his residency program, essentially, to pursue the education that you're talking about, because he felt like he was so constrained and was being trained in the wrong way that he was really worried that he would lose lose himself. So he, he left his residency after the first year, which is you're crazy. You know, you got a mountain of debt, he's got a build a practice on his own now it can't fit into the system because he hasn't done his residency. It's, it's a remarkable thing yet, it's what's needed, but it it's such an unusual thing. For nine. Remember when I went to school, I was going to be going as an entrepreneur to develop more thoughtful analytical systems that clinicians could use to figure out what they're doing. They matters. You know, I've always asked the question what, what martyrs matter? And what, what makes the difference for the clinical effector trying to she what is the outcome. You're driving for. And how do we know you're actually doing it? And how, and if you aren't doing it, how efficiently are you getting that outcome? And so those ideas really solidly in place for me and you go to training and you think, okay, I'm getting a some training that'll gives me a credential, allow me access to the trenches. They're lacking being more thoughtful about what I'm doing. You have to figure out what you're getting going to meet your need. And at some point when you're nearly forty going to school, you know, and you how'd you career your life, you know, I know what I wanna do. And then he realized that some of the training, you have to do you have to take a responsibility for that yourself. So some of us realize. That. And, you know, you have to make that on your own 'calculation in your mind about who I want to wander down a residency pathway for me to straddle was by Taj leniency easier both dealt with suffering in one way or the other ones focusing on the physical round ones offices on the part of logical or missile realm, and, neither, they meet in the middle rarely and you can't really get to a whole thing and along that line. You know, I I was given an opportunity to do a fellowship actually integrated medicine. And so I did that. And then I went on from there to do start doing the other training that I knew it was necessary for me to look at things in a different lens. And so, like this other gentlemen, we some of understand that we innovate you have to kind of remove yourself from the being sheep walking down the line. You know, you're not gonna get there and that incremental list approach, I'd already work that way, more than a decade and the Harvard system and seeing how that. How that goes that's one strategy. But it doesn't let you leapfrog. And if you're a developer, you wanna sing beyond constrain and try to make new knowledge. You got to figure out how you're going to do that is that requires the decision and I, you know, for me, I came to that, that decision point for a couple of reasons and personal reasons for thinking about that child and health issues and him but, but also on a professional level. I knew what I was learning was not going to give me what I need, and I certainly didn't want it can. So while I very respectful and understand the, those that halfway, I understand what my my contribution that I wanted to develop with required it on making different different hats. You've sent up the next part of the conversation, beautifully we've gotten the big picture here and talking about finding markers that matter and Genesis zooming out and seeing the whole person in zooming in and looking inside. And you've identified three. Pretty basic markers. And most people have seen on blood tests that you find or absolutely critical to know and manage a person's health, and what are those three markers? I rely very heavily on hold reckoning level. He reactive protein, cardiac c reactive protein and whole body CRP in a homeless team and a few other ones those people, tell me a lot about a person oh and bless high third one. That's wirthlin. You know, I, I do things about type will perfect. So let's go through each of those just to refresh. People who know a little bit about it to refresh in people who don't know, to just we know one of the like the Wikipedia entry the very short. Like, what so what is, what is histamine in what is the whole you said, whole blood histamine? Is that what you said, the more? Hit me in different ways. And so for, you know, the market that I use is the Hickman measurement in the pope. Plus, he ordered from last for or west. You might get a different reading the one we looking for a homeland and what exact. So that's measuring circulating histamine, right? Yeah, it measuring circulating hits me, you know, I borrow on some of the work done by William walls who identified and optimal therapeutic range of his main that we all know his name is a very important chemical on the body. It's often involved in allergy and information. But it's also very important era transmitter so without it, you can't say away, hence antihistamines, make people sleepy. So you need it for brain function. The body uses it, and so he responds to infections or toxins, or, you know, noxious stimuli, the body will often release histamine from certain immune. Sells so hitting me will give you a broad, how, you know, Ron understanding where someone sitting both on an inflammation side allergy and firemen lists. You know, reactivity, but also we get a bit of a marker of how well your body is mentally, because it's just a main can be when it's too low or too high, you might think of people being over under methylated, and was that for me that Martin racking already began to gather some of what I've seen people come in making certain complaints. It'll you know, I look at the lab, and I will see he's the main hundred fifty or two hundred eight and you're like wow and make sense. Okay. And your wonder you know, so the explain some of what's going on. So let's pause there per second. So what's normal range for this history? Now, I like living forty and Saturday, and so fifty five or sixty is perfect, you know, so, you know, you'll get a trend if someone's trending down in the low forties or thinking, wow, maybe over methylated someone is trending upward, you know, about seventy eighty ninety one hundred we thinking, wonder what if under meta late at, and then then thinking about that? And so, so Mythili. Been paying so methylation in histamine on the opposite ends of the seesaw there in tagging to other correct. You know than I really. By body is producing more metal groups that can be that can be used down streams in the findings. So I go some of those metal groups will act will inactivate your history means and ride them down. So when you're dealing with people mutations in, you know, people love fuck about, you know, genetic polymorphisms, and certain enzymes, like the far everybody's getting member. Full lady will be twelve and wondering why they go terrible pushing the medication cycle, and some some respects when you look at somebody who's feeling terribly they might be terribly because they're on full later muscle b twelve or something that's drawn into his main, too low and to me, we'll make people feel awful and then to high minute people to offer different reasons, so. Yeah. Too much metal generally speaking of their growth rule. Son will inactivate in dry down your histamine levels, so you might get offensive. Whether someone's aggressive, you know how that defining running. I really wonder if you needed worry about what's going on in meditation in the medication cycle for that patient. Let's move onto CRP and you mentioned two different types. What are the different types of CR c reactive protein? Let's news in the acronym there. But so what are the different types of c reactive protein in how to use those? Save reactive protein is a marker of generally followed no marker information now there is. So you look at a generic c reactive protein. That's more reflective of, of the entire body. But when you look at a cardiac CRP, you know, that is more confined to what inflammation in your vascular system. So theory CRP is doesn't that is produced in the liver in response me. And again, when you're looking at our cardiac CRP that Margaret, that's giving you a risk of inflammation, that's mostly that more represented within the vascular basketball system. So, you know, when I look at C, R, P, cardiac ERP's, on patients on worried about heart attacks and stroke risk, right? Problems with circulation and a whole body's European will be inflammation in the body, but not. Only confined, what's in the circulation to. And so the, the high when somebody says, I'm I've got a high sensitivity, CRP, that's the cardiac CRP. The acid. But it's the words cardiac beside it, it, okay. Okay. It will say cardiac so you have to get it has to say cardiac COP. Okay. Perfect and home assists, teen. That's also in the methylation cycle, right? To what is home is doing for us? Teen is in the Maino asses, and it's commonly found in the by and homeless teen of most people know is part of the assigning cycle so emit signing can be metabolize production Sammy into home assist team. And then home assisting. Fifteen can be regenerated back into finding with the addition of metal metal b twelve and a machine FICO or a pretty by opera, and maybe the, the EMT pathway using griping, you can regenerate methionine so, basically, homeless teen is a Mark or of Latian, but home assistant very important in a production of software sulfate in the body. Also in the production of metal groups so that the body can have medication reactions running, which is useful for many many, many types of reactions in their body phone, but after narrow transmitter detoxification of hormones and other toxins, though homeless his tainted, a marker and very powerful when an abnormal understanding that there must be downstream issues that have to do with metal Asian and be toxic Asian and South Asian. Now, I forgot to ask you on the series. Acta protein, what are the levels that you like to see in the cardiac and in the whole blood with the whole body CRP, or that I really like the European and the one ever, like, MRs painted I only powerful markers that a functional or integrative physician trying to figure out what markers matter, you like it use the markers that everybody understands and there's lots of peer review around them. You know, you're ready research. So peer review study that whether you're conventional practicing position, or whatever side of the spectrum, you're on people understand these markers, and they're not controversial and looking at the literature. It's known that I see our p the lowest risk associated cardiac CRP with my patients are carrying about risk the buying from death from a heart attack, or a stroke is your appoint by now. You might look at it for national reference range coming from the major lab companies say lesson one is, you know. In a low risk and there's one two three in over three but just because people are in some kind of reference range doesn't mean their optimal range, as you know, when you're looking for the lowest risk associated with about of a heart attack, or stroke, or other cardiovascular problems point five is a number. But that's what we strive for office. And that's both tests. Both react to protein tests. Yeah. Okay. And then what, what are the what's the range that you like to see with home assisting balance, attains, an interesting one that literature point to the marker at about the point three? Okay. So there is a range of reference range, or reference interval associated with that, from the major lack companies, and you my see go up of, you know, in our twelve but, but every five points higher than six is associated with in twenty percent increased risk for cardiovascular event. It's actually a more power. Awful marker for, for having a heart problem, then you didn't cholesterol. It's so powerful that it was a time when people refer to it as your H score. Everybody needs to know my eight score. And so the, the magic you know, the literature places to six points. And then the risk goes up kind of pretty dramatically as you start to rise above six. So you just a normal range and have a relative in increased risk for having cardiovascular disease that being in that normal reference. Interval can homelessness, teen be too low? Well, it I can actually be too. So someone else's asked me about illnesses teen being to homocysteine is too low. You're wondering. I mean, there's, there's an optimal range, one hundred fifteen and I don't know on the lower scale that's four or five, you know, or hanging around six or seven you have to wonder houses involved in, in the fining cycle. And it's also involved in the transpiration pathways, if it's lows low the cause of pathway of blah. So when you start imagine a marker, and you see. Wow. That's interesting. It's not it's more. I don't have any patients showing me low harnesses teams. I don't think in all the ones I've ever measured as people be too low. Okay. So it doesn't it does are had that way. Yeah. I don't see it, I think, but, but, but it is interesting when it's elevated you have to go digging deeper now at a second level of analysis, you wanna be noticing, and try to wonder, what are the halfway that seems to be blocked downstream of homeless teen that are causing it to rise. They can come back to get where you want to support, but because it's so powerful the marker for heart attack, and, and cancer, actually, and the detoxification in general. And we elation of DNA activation too. I mean you really think about it. Hold markers, and try to normalize patients. And so we pay very much attention to turn to get that marker. I try to get it under. Eight and close to Sixers. I can get having pretty interesting stories I can tell you about people come in with not knowing their home, fifteen every, whether they're young or old. You can find out a lot, just those free markers. And how do you see these markers showing up in Lyme disease? Is there a pattern or is just know that somewhere in there? These numbers are going to be off. Well, the mass market at that, that maybe more controversial to folks is thinking about how these markers vary, according to blood type, and then that comes back to line patients and other contantly. Oh, patients. So we also pay attention, and we note on every person comes in the door about taxes, and it's interesting to see patterns of in our patients that berry on these markers by, and I'll just give you some growth patterns that I've seen people with, and we see mostly Asian. No there. More kind of black tie are be. And then there's more of a or a b but I'll speak most it's as, though so your blood Taipei so tends to the poor at methylated and always have his team metal many did you generally find these folks struggling with on the fifteen and you generally the rule we did. They, they may offer have a little bit. It's europe. He but you will generally think of those people are struggling in that finding transliterations pathway somehow and they're I it really does impact, some of those inflammation markers. And in your own blood type, Cindy people struggling more with the nitric oxide into illegal issues and joint pain, and they will have problems of this era P. You will be you know, surprised to see a lot of os near. I see a lot of those that, that show up with basketball issues and also moved issues to both ways. But so when I think, line patients that come into. Door or, you know, they also usually have other is, you know, co-infections going on, whether it's bumble, mold CND, viral infections Mastel issues. I mean, the whole gamut you look at the markers with people say, why are these people not able to clear their infections? What's, what's keeping their body from naturally being able to to get over to, you know, because if we grieve that line has been around for a long time, maybe not recognized as for what it is. But that the prevalence of line picks have line or ordinance that are carrying mine have been there in the natural environment for a long, long thousands of years. Right how possible is that people are more or less and less able to clear infection that maybe years ago, we could clear and so when you start delving into the implement inflammatory markers, and you see the variation in these particular marketers, you can kind of see where. And there half ways they are struggling, and that just helps me focus my efforts towards supporting the reduction of these markers in a more specific fashion for these people. And when I do that they seem to improve all the way around so that would be having to give them a specific therapy, that may be I know about, or I've obviously, can do, if I if I wanted to I went to look at it that way, like using an antibiotic or you know, I'm not you strategies that are solely about reducing the inflammatory patterns that I'm seeing that are very specific compati-. You can't do the one size fits? All there's not a, a protocol for a high homocysteine, because you got it incorporate the genome in the lifestyle actors, you gotta put it all together to see the things that acting on this person's uniquely. But when I when I dress them from that point of view, we get success pretty quickly people feel better. But they also. Get the market's going down. You know, it's nice to see someone feeling better, and there's something that's showing an effect. Something is improving. Right. So you're seeing lime disease and when I say Lyme disease, I mean all all the infections that come along with it, whether it's viral or or moment or co-infections, I came along with the same ticket. Whatever just infect all of a sudden there's this infectious pattern that that's happening. You're seeing that as part of an inflammatory, I'm going to say this strange way, but the inflammatory world that we're in. So perhaps, this is just another piece of this overall toxic kind of environment. We put ourselves in with chemicals in EM, Fs and maybe stronger molds. 'cause we've been using antifungal 's now for seventy years and only the strong survive kind of thing, what the, the modes in the ground saying what doesn't kill us make us stronger. But all the nice guy. Is gone in the only the bad actors are left. So maybe so is that fair? I think what I'm also been been interested in doing that. I if I think about efficiency of markers that matter. Right. Asking that question all the time is, how do I how do I think about the basic mechanisms that the body uses that might be in pairs to keep people from clearing, these infections so core things like like, but self Asian like the value of understanding, how the body so patients halfway can be how core, they are to clearing, clearing, pathogens, improving circulation, and in understanding how in modern living over the course of my lifetime. How other is the world's becomes had more toxins in the environment. Whether that, you know, lack of natural sunlight exposure, and on day, EM. How are these things really impacting these core? Prophecies that are making people seem why could lying on the rise. But really it less people are able to get over an infection. They might have been able to sometime before because the environment is we all know that, you know, it's, it's more difficult is more challenging to throw bodies. You know, just the world we live in. It's more demanding on our on our body and more toxic. And so when you say topic and what, what, you know, I'm trying to have a little more specifically what, what very basic halfway that have been conserved across evolution or devante hats for communication and healing are being hampered by the lifestyle that people are living today, and I think that's what keeps people in the group and I have seen some interesting patterns and I like patterns because I trained and you did acupuncture, but I'm very respectful of the medical systems that have been around long. Four. You know, I say modern medicine, though, the on the germ theory things shifted away from looking at patterned, ROY Arabic Christina Chinese through this. And so anyway, so we back up here, I'm sorry. Go ahead finish your thought. I don't know. So I see patterns showing up when I look at these markers, and I reflect upon the deeper levels of what might be driving the expression of these markers. You know how are these markers? More fundamentally associated with core. Processes that are so important that they'd been conserved throughout time. And that's where I wanna look before I go up string, I want to live there. So basically asked the question how come the body hasn't been able to successfully fight all these infections? And sometimes it simply load, right? There's just too many of them in the body in you're just completely overwhelmed. But, but how did you how did you get to that? We can point to to begin with and not like it's your fault. It's just. You know, your body was in a certain mode, and that allows a toehold for an infection, or a pair of infections, one long, one of the things I'm interested in is the whole kind of in the Nate immune system. The, the macrophage differentiation between 'em to stage and the m one stage and the kind of it does tie in with the with the helper cells, the T H one in t h two and they're there and it seems like the body can get stuck in a loop there, too. So you're macrophages reather kind, and this is a gross oversimplification, but it makes it understandable is in a fighting mode kind of the hulk mode, or it's in Bruce banner mode, where it's repairing and fixing things, and it can get to the one side on the other. So when your niece swells up from Lyme disease in stay swollen up, that's stuck in the inflammatory mode, and it's having trouble getting back into the Fixit mode. But on the other hand when you're kind of only allergic side. And the, the tumor for forming side or cyst forming side. Some of the weird cyst that you up with people lime disease. The others autoimmune type thing that's on the, the Bruce banner side, that's on the repair side, and there's not enough of the inflammation in breaking down and recycling of, of old cells that way. And let's go ahead. What I what I think thinking a lot about. And this is bringing in other other thought leaders that are that are for me, mental or this point guard media lot, and they really influence where I operate from, and it'll be the work of Gerald holiday and thinking about stretching water in the body and bringing that into thinking also energetically about magnetism and let you know, sort of in folding in the whole violent or jetty part of the equation. So, you know, most of Mitchell medicine, or any medicine that we do is based on biochemical assets of things, they're not really looking thinking violent or jaggery. And I, I always tell people I think that that in the paradigm, or the, the framework, that we look at people now it's a bit like being in a pond and boat, but one or, and you push or but you go in a circle because you need or and says biochemical and by I still together because the body ISM. Electro chemical whatever chemical gets converted into energy and we need to think about what's going on energy. So as you think about those ideas about by the about an energetic, you can't not think about sunlight and its affect on, if you look at Hollis work on water and function of water in our body, and we, we get lost in the Salyers, but we're not looking at the solvent in water. Is this all for, which we are ninety nine point nine percent water? And when you look at the bad aspects of, of it, and you understand a little bit about how that affects cellular function that takes us out of from the traditional understanding and into thinking about what's in the literature for a while that people have not adopted even though there's lots of Nobel prizes on it. And think about these things, they hadn't found its way into the common framework of thinking about how about he works. How about truly working, why are these things really work? Why why are the medicines that we didn't get we, we achieve success? We, we attributed to a mechanism, but Annetta may not be at all, what we have audited, getting successor, totally different reason. Yes. Exactly. That's exactly what's really going on. And bring you your country. The Neil understand that what is the body concerting at all costs is a movement, and energy. But Alkali for us moving through this circulations flow. You know you die. Right. And so when you go back to those very core processing started die second down to what are the things you want to understand, and go there. First, we're looking let happening here that takes you on a whole 'nother level. It's when you get to that fundamental, so. Pollack's work is interesting. He's made a very excessive he's written a very assessable book called the fourth phase of water. And if you're a geek and assume you are, because you're listening to this podcast that it's if you haven't read the book, go ahead and buy get it from Amazon. It's a wonderful. Wonderful read, and you can boil down the book to essentially one fact, and that's water, get structured in a similar way to freezing. But it's not in a frozen state and unstructured, and it's too. That's just we just have been an Yang. Right. It goes back and forth between the two and that's the engine of life. That's what makes it all work, and my point about the macrophages is that is on a on a higher level, that's downstream from this basic functioning if the body gets stuck in either mode. That's when things start breaking down flexibility we've starting to hear about metabolic flexibility. Oh, you need to be a little burn carbs and fat. That's great. But what hap-? A lot of people get stuck on either end for one reason, right? They can't metabolize fats very well, or they can't metabolize carbs very well. And that causes problems, the same thing happens in your immune system, your immune system needs to be flexible, it needs to move back and forth between both states and be actually had mixes of the states at the same time, and we, we get stuck and I actually think Laurie that some of the functions of antibiotics are to push the body's immune state from one phase to another and see some of the evidence some there. Yeah. So it's not even that the antibiotics killing anything, it's just resetting your immune system. Well, I would say that, that politics book, the four phase of water is a must read for everybody, but also other must read for everybody is sells jails and the engines of life. Or visit other book really talks about how cells really fussing bumble to love second that books. That's the second book. That's a tough read. That's a. So people it's a great book, but you're like one of the smartest people on the planet. Come on, you start off. Yeah. You are. It's let's put start with the fourth phase of water. That makes it understandable. If you still hungry. For more go to cells gels in the engines of life. It's an amazing book. It took me allied to look up every other word in the book. But it was worth fighting through. Just killing it down. I mean, I personally, if it is exciting to me, reading some scintillating novel. I'm like, I go home. My wow. So starting to read this stuff it just really connect many dots for me when you think about what's about doing what's the body actually doing? And if you think about the bodies, mostly proteins, or in a hydrated, or less hydrated state and they get hydrated they behave differently unfolding in creating structure of water. And when the waters structured in the body, and certain ways in certain places around, every hydrophobic protein are charged surface water is to, to organize itself. And in a structure organization, it actually excludes all you I mean toxins. So when you're structured water is in place, correctly, whether properly proper functioning protein, you know. Not damaged, then you don't have to worry about the gut and infection because the body's excluding naturally. And so, when I think about people breaking down that they had problems in a certain place, or stay with being able to have that very natural process of how the sales, communicate and proteins, or communicating waters moving and changing from a structure for them to a less structure form, and it comes in and goes, and, you know, there are a lot of ways that we can damage proteins, or come in the world and less than off move configured proteins, but it ended the day, we can't, we can't count the impact of water and how water is is supposed to be structuring in our body, and how moving away from the factors that helped the body destruction water light exposure to infrared life. I infrared light is a very powerful signal for your body to structure as water and that. Missing because people have out with and we're getting the wrong kind of like in the middle of the day by getting too much blue light and that goes into a whole lot at other discussion about by the energetic again and frequency. But if you don't get the right frequency of natural light infrared, right? You won't you won't do what you're supposed to do. So you gotta start looking at why these modalities and we say, what is going to help people in for vest on. Well, at least they somehow it moves your toxins out and helps excrete that truly structuring what? And when you start for water, you naturally extreme because water sloughs structured, there's structure barrier is in penetrable to, to most anything. So that is the body's natural excretion processes instead of those structure. Then that, and that's why audible and when you look at some of the white coli star mean is effective, we always, you know, use code lingo, police darning. We call it a binder people think of binders things that I don't know, buying something. And like a sponge and push it out. What probably starving does is that because charged or hide affiliate compound, it structures water, and he taken in your gut, and it know, not a job systemically so that local affective allowing the guts, being create that healthy structured water and things get excluded, and excreta so, yes, it makes people feel better because is, is enhancing the body's natural ability to build its own natural defenses, which is structuring Waterberg needs to be. So when I started thinking about it that way, it really helps me understand why a lot of the what we call her, and if there, he's or even some antibiotics, you know, have worked similarly, you know, in the sense of where they're in, whether they're more of an extra cellular action or intracellular action. If our antibiotic goes, but let me start thinking about these things in that core level about how they impact in the audience. That's doing for immunity and improving immunity. That's pretty interesting. Right. It's super interesting. So let's wrap this up since we're talking about water. Let's go into just some of the basic. So you talked about getting exposed to infrared to help the internal water. What do you coach patients in terms of water have them do? We we, we understand that patients largely don't drink enough water. So we all know that. And I like, wow, he may be really hunting talk on wires mainly. No, but that's a lot about it. So we talk Asians to drink, you know, to being more hydrated than they are and Israel them. You know, I just tell people that either wait half drinking water 'cause people aren't doing this, and then you pick all the water has to be has to be considered. And so we're gonna have to buy the most expensive water systems, but we do say you need to have a water so we union by glacial water. But it needs to be watered, it's alive and has some violent tippety to it or not book. Now, I have containers that I put my water in that. I start with a pretty good water. I wanna -struction water my container. I use that hopper water bottle because hoppers Leonard structure, the water. And I when I drink it, you can tell. All the difference in the water and the copper water bottle. I mean it's off it, it actually when he started drinking structured water, your body will be thirsty. He will the more you drink more thirsty. You'll be very uncomfortable thirsty because your body actually hydrating and so, so drinking water, you can put it in a container where it can be come structured, you have to buy structure wire. There are some on the market and policy does sell starts water founded any a-, and it's actually been tested, and it's may after he made an Idaho. But it does it is, you know, laboratory tested and his panta technology. So there you can drink structure. So you gotta be hydrated for for, you can structure it, and then kitty that help your body, the exposed to the frequency energetically to help your body nationally structure. If you don't have to take so many pills. We'll get out in the sun like literally gets on your skin. If you, you know addition to doing that is infrared sauna and actually if Pollack says, in his book, the other second most powerful energy to structure, waters acoustic energy, so that's you know, thousands of years, people have some and I've had healing down therapies can be healing, so acoustic frequencies. We have a sound table in our office, that pushes frequency in the body lie on the table, and we can select the frequencies on that the body is receding, so you lay on the table, you feel engraving in your body, and you actually hear them you could own headphones in. You're actually listening to them at the same time and they're very powerful that, that to singing in, in certain frequencies. If muted tones are very little structure. Your water was like, I guess sound way will break up, you know, kidney Eastham. Right. So acoustic, energy, infrared energy structure. Water. And we just try to point our patience to thinking about that their daily life. I getting out in the sun where you get your national in prevent, but it's coming all the time it comes through your house. You know at night, infrared energy coming in and then really mitigating the exposure that people have to the persistent blue light. It seems to interfere with the body's signaling pathway is really being mindful of how we're receiving more artificial light needy. I if it relates structuring and improving the structure watering body, Lori. Thank you so much. You've been very, very generous with your time, and knowledge and just really inspiring that there are people out there like you who care deeply about the big picture, like, how are we gonna fix this mess of a system that we're in and then also own the individual level to and really taking care of patients and trying to figure out what they need to really. He'll, and they enter support their bodies so that they're they, they come out of your office, not just free of some label, but truly in a healthier states of thank you for what you're doing. Mary gripe offer. Morning. And I'll just say just for me, the clinician. I don't think that what we're doing is pretty aiding. Something different. I think we have to go back to what we've always known to be true. And we have lost our way somewhat in the morass of making things medicalising. What we've what we've got to get connected back to the earth. And in basic things that people have been doing from thousands of years, right, up -solutely and just the more far afield regret you make life easier for live in modern the modern way. We've lost our connection to the things that ground us and those, those those, those li- those habits and those rituals of life. Whether you, you know circadian and exposure to them that natural elements and doing things really your body bodies rise, so reinventing those in modern ways for people to get to corporate in the modern life is kind of our goal is my is my challenge, and that's what I'm working on. So thanks. Made popular about it this morning. This was a really good interview. And you know, you guys were talking about sound is kind of a healing modality. And it just reminds me how fun it is to feel the bass in your collarbone. You know, if the base gets really loud, and that reminded me actually in the beginning, when we first started interviewing people, how sensitive, some people are to that base downed, and how it's, it's intolerable for some people with lime disease, any kind of frequency. Yeah. We had somebody right in of couple of months ago, and they were hearing mouse clicks and drive them, absolutely nuts. And it may have been on our end may be on the guests ends, we weren't sure we tried to track it down and couldn't find it. But it's amazing when you're hyper sensitive, various sounds light emotions multi axons virus. Everything gets to you, right. But on the neurological side sounds or a big one. It's really quite amazing. I had a patient not too long ago. And her main issue was oxalate s-. I believe so she was overproducing oscillates, particularly in our ears, and every time she hit a bump driving, it would set her off for sometimes three four five days in terms of pain, and discomfort in a lack of ability to sleep. So this is serious, this neurological, when it gets ramped up is serious business. If you like what we're doing here at Lyman into radio hit the subscribe button, and that way you're not gonna miss an episode. And if you really like what we're doing leave us a review on your podcast app. It helps us reach more people like you. And if you're really, really like what we're doing here at ninja radio share the punt cats with a friend. You just might save their life. Give feedback suggestions for gets really anything send an Email to feedback at lime ninja. Radio dot com and last as you longtime lime ninjas. No, this podcast would not be complete unless we left you with the lime ninja fact of the day. Did you now Clark Kent had to call himself superman because lime ninja was already taken? Into radio is a purely public broadcast and is not intended to be personalized medical bites for any individuals specific situation each individual, his medical situations, unique and Limy radio should not be relied upon Endro considered as personalized medical advice on into radio's not licensed render medical and should be considered. Simply the public opinion of line, ninja radio and its guests recommendations on specific treatment options are not intended to address any listeners particular, medical situation, as always contact your physician before considering any new treatment.

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Openly Discussing Suicide in Our Communities

The Psych Central Show

22:23 min | 1 year ago

Openly Discussing Suicide in Our Communities

"Welcome to the psych central podcast where each episode features guest experts discussing nothing psychology and mental health in Everyday Plain language his you'll host gave Howard hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of Psych Central Podcast. We are here today. Talking with Dr Nate Ivers who is the Department Hartman Chair and associate professor at Wake Forest University specifically. We're going to be discussing how to openly talk about suicide and our communities nate welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the URA inviting me to be here and <hes> for allowing me to talk about something very important while we appreciate you being here as well. Suicide is one of those things that absolutely everybody has heard of we all know about it and believe it or not. We're all talking about it. Just generally generally incorrectly your doctor who kind of studies and researches this. Why do people get it so wrong because it's not a concept that people are unfamiliar with right? I think everybody hit unfortunately has been affected or touch by suicide aside and but but yes there are lots of misconceptions too. I think one of the major misconceptions is thought that those who commit suicide really wanted to die <hes> I think there are some instances where people do indeed want to die but most often the reason why people decide that they are going to go forward with committing suicide is because they've they feel so much pain and they feel so much hopelessness and helplessness related to their situation and they just want that pain to go away. I can really relate to that as someone someone who has had bouts of depression and been suicidal myself. I've said that since I reached recovery it's not my life that I wanted to end. It was the pain that I wanted to end and I saw no path forward and that's one of the reasons I'm so interested in how to discuss suicide and wanting to die with the public because there's many many many misconceptions floating around and one of the biggest ones that persist is that asking someone if they are suicidal will put the idea in their head and and make them want to do it. How do you respond to that and it's a great question and I think that's one of the fears that sometimes we have <hes> about trying to help someone who's going through this sort of pain but <hes> all indicators suggest that talking to someone about suicide is not planted in their brain <hes> in fact? It's the opposite when people are experiencing such pain to the point where they're considering suicide. They've very often are reaching out for help. <hes> sometimes they're doing it very directly by saying I am considering arming myself and so they broach the topic they named the taboo. The many times is sort of metaphorical though say I just I just can't keep doing this. I feel like I keep digging a hole and I can't get out or I just WANNA walk into the ocean. I JUST WANNA keep walking instead of turning around wound and then if we're able that moment to name that taboo or say it sounds like you're really hurting right now and I'm I'm concerned about you and sounds like you might be having thoughts as well of killing yourself. Is that correct <hes> that sounds hard to say that in the moment that's oftentimes what we do need to say that if we need do need to do because it helps bring the covert to the over and when we do that we can actually do something to work on it with that person and sometimes I think it brings relief to the person as well that finally the thing. So taboo that even they had been blitz about his come out into the open. It's fascinating to me that this is one of the myths that persist because we have all sorts of safety precautions in our society for example. Nobody says that SMOKE ALARMS GIVE PEOPLE THE IDEA to burn the house down or that wearing seatbelts gives people the idea to drive recklessly yet for some reason people's feel that thoughts of suicide are so outside of the norm him that they must not be able to come up with this on their own and that just even raising the it's like beetlejuice. If you say the word suicide it will appear because otherwise nobody's thinking about it and we've learned through research and understanding that as you said that's just not true people have come up with this on their own and by nobody talking about it. It gives it space to grow yeah. I think that's a really good point going back to suicide as a taboo subject. We're unwilling to even consider that someone would go that far as to think of suicide and it's easier or to just ignore it in ignoring. I think it does fester. I think it grows and I think it affects people much more than it might otherwise as hard as it is and it's actually really hard for elsewhere sometimes to what we call name no taboo and one of the things we do in our training programs is I really work with our students to get comfortable with asking that question because they even bring in with them these misconceptions that if I bring this up I might be priming my client to consider suicide when they may not have otherwise aside from molded misinformation or or worry of putting the ideas in people's heads etc.. I think another common reason that people don't ask people if they're suicidal because we don't know the warning signs. Maybe we are comfortable enough to ask our loved ones that this is going on. We just assumed our our loved ones are fine. What are some of the warning signs? What should people be on the lookout for for their friends family co workers so that they can provide that care that people may need? I think that's a really really good question. <hes> I think it it else was tied to one of the misconceptions about suicide is that to be suicidal. One must be crazy. One must be seriously mentally ill to be suicidal and so I know my friend I know my co worker. I know my son and daughter what are known this person can't be a level of serious mental health issues and so I'm not even GonNa go there with them. We know that that's not true and very few people have serious mental health issues such as psychosis schizophrenia friend. You are actually suicidal as much common for the common person didn't have a crisis <hes> and to struggle with some situations and then have these thoughts of suicide and so I think disassociating it from the idea of being psychosis hosts. This may help us recognize that it no it's much more common than we might think but some of the some of the warning signs of suicide I mean one of the obvious ones of you is that someone is <hes> stating that they want to die. Even even when someone says says that I think we can we can sometimes discredit it as I say that's not true <hes>. You really don't feel that way. <hes> I know you're going through a hard time but that's just a saying you're not really meaning that <hes> but that's one of the more obvious ones another really <hes> really obvious one <hes> we may not consider as obvious is just an enduring sense of hopelessness and despair so I would say if you're thinking if you're worried about your friend or you're worried about your co worker or family member if they are experiencing if you're seeing this hopelessness that doesn't seem to go away. That's why I might start wondering. Maybe I should can or her this question. Maybe I should say how are you doing. I've noticed that you've been really down. Lately met might start the conversation <hes> so when someone. An expresses that he or she is feeling like they're a burden that sometimes is a good indicator that you might want to ask more doesn't necessarily mean in any of these instances whether they're feeling hopeless or they're feeling like they're a burden that they necessarily are suicidal. August is a potential sign that they are <hes> changes in behavior can be a sign of this as well so an individual for example who is punctual at work more recently has been coming in and seem seem like he has his or her stuff together quite as much as the one who's always <hes> well groomed and well dressed and seems put together and then comes in and a little bit tattered <hes> in his or her appearance that might be something it might not but that might be an indication initiative well <hes> there changes of course or drinking more or sleeping more or sleeping less being more irritable and usually you seem to be fairly easy easy going lots of different different things like that and it just really folk look really recognizing some of the behavioral shifts that someone has on the flip side of this which is which seems a little bit country indicated as individuals who have generally seen fairly depressed or anxious or irritable who all of the sudden seem like they're much more content ed or happier that might that might be a sign that they are considering suicide and they've made up their mind about that and now they're feeling this sense of pain is going is going to go away and the sense of peace and so that's that's another thing that one might want to keep into her eye on whereas we might make finally so and so's feeling better but it might be that they're actually closer to wanting to move forward with a suicidal plan now of course all of these that you just mentioned there signs. They're not guarantees you were going to step away to from our sponsor and we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by better help dot com secure convenient and affordable online counseling. All counsellors are licensed accredited professionals anything you share is confidential schedule Agile secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it's needed a month of online therapy often cost less than a single traditional face to face session go to better help dot com forward slash psych central and experienced seven days a free therapy to to see if online counseling is right for you better help dot com forward slash psych central and we're back talking to Dr Date Ivers about discussing suicide in our community so we move into the next step. which is you sort of want to broach the topic with the person Persson who you're concerned about this? How do you broach the subject of suicide with somebody who you see? These warning signs in there is not a perfect way to do it. Obviously in some of it depends on your relationship with the person but I think the first thing that you do. Who is you help them recognize the notice? They're paying you. Help them recognize that you notice that they're going through something. There's something different in their life. There are few things you can say that you know. I just wanted to check in with you for a moment I <hes> I noticed that even coming coming in way to work lately and <hes> you know there's certainly no judgment here but it just seems like there's something on your mind. There's just something not quite right with you right now. I wondered if you wanted to talk about that. Mess sort of a soft in but in doing that you're opening up a door and you're also doing what we said earlier. Is I care about you enough to stop and ask you how things are going in your life so in its own way it's kind of an intervention if the person then responds and says yeah yeah things have been really really difficult lately and let's let's say gets to the point where they say it feels very hopeless. I just I just can't keep doing it. I can't keep living like this. <hes> something's got to happen and at that point that's where he might get a little bit scared because it looks like it's getting a little bit closer. The Taboo <hes> and that's where you want to say maybe express that feeling sounds like you're really sad right now. Things feel really hopeless. At this moment and again you might you might be thinking about Oh. Did I just make them feel hopeless. Know what you're doing is. You're creating a connection. You're expressing depressing. <hes> that you're hearing someone actually understands to at least a degree what they're going through and as it gets deeper or closer to it then you say and just WanNa check. Are you having thoughts of killing yourself and you should just be that blunt should just look the person and say yes yet. Why does that work? I mean it seems very scary just to ask somebody I mean I I can see why people are GonNa take a deep breath and think oh I could never ask somebody that it seems so insulting yes well I. I think that's one of the reasons why it's so hard is because it's not something you usually ask him. Play conversation yeah even even things that are a little bit less taboo them at hair you having a hard time with your drinking. <hes> how's your sex life. You know stuff like that. You don't you don't really broach as those topics very often. It seems like it's very private. We're trained to avoid them. Yeah you have to transcend your conditioning just a little bit in these instances to really provide the care that you want to provide and in the instances where I have asked that question most of the time when I've asked the question is then in a counselling relationship and so it's a little bit easier because there's more of an expectation but other times where I have had to ask that question of a friend if they weren't suicidal they very quickly told me Oh no no no no no. I'm glad you ask but no I yes. I'm feeling very terrible right now. Wife is hard but you're all the reasons why wouldn't do that <hes> and then we move on if I believe them in other instances where they are filling a lot of pain. There's usually some silence maybe a second or two it might come with years after that <hes> and then all of a sudden here it is they lay it out. Let's say that you ask the question you you say to somebody. Are you thinking about killing yourself and they answer yes. Yes I am and then you try to help but they refused all help. What do you do then? That's when it gets really really difficult. <hes> I would say if they <hes> if it seems imminent <hes> what I mean by that is they say that yes I'm having thoughts of killing myself and and scared that I really could do it at any point in time and they have sort of a plan in place for it and the means to carry it out <hes> I would say what you do is you don't leave them alone at that point as much as you can avoid whatever else you need to do they stay with that person and I would also recommend calling the crisis line I would say can we call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline together and they're going to ask you some questions and <hes> I'll be here to assist you through Matt <hes> and then we can get a better sense of what the resources are in the community and what your options are this time to maybe help reduce pain because I think what you WanNa do is <hes> help them know that I'm not just trying to keep you from committing suicide asset. I'm trying to help you get to the point where this paying can go away a lot of what you're trying to do without minimizing what they're going through. Help them realize that there can be some hope there can be even a glimmer a small light at the end of the tunnel and so that's what I I would probably start with is the national suicide prevention lifeline. It may affect your friendship for a while especially if they're not happy that you did that but I would say stay with them and say you know what we're going to make this call together because I'm really worried about you. I can't help you if you die and if. As they leave and they say you know you know. I don't WanNa talk with you anymore. I'm out of here. <hes> then I would call nine one one and just let them know in what direction the person was in the information that they shared with you and while you're worried about them I think one of the fears that a friend would have is in. Why am I doing this to preemptively <hes>? Am I calling in too much help too soon and could that cause harm and I would say no when in doubt <hes> do what you need to do to help them but <hes> it may be helpful to get additional additional additional assistance and I would say that with the hotline would before one of the best statements that I ever heard in a suicide training that I attended once is that you can apologize for overreacting as long as the person gets the help that they need. You can't apologize for under reacting if the worst case scenario occurs it sad to think about it that way it's scary and traumatizing to think about it that way but yeah as long as that person's alive I can repair our relationship trae. Let's switch gears for a moment because we know that no matter how hard we try no matter how much education there is no matter how much training unfortunately somebody will die the suicide it. How might the grieving process differ for those who loved ones have died by suicide that if they pass away for any other reason I appreciate your asking that question <hes> it's <hes> there are similarities of course someone has lost someone who made of an bet there are differences as well and I think the difference is sort of all coalesce into one thing it's it's taboo that we talked about earlier? <hes> individuals who loved one by by suicide oftentimes experience ton of ambivalence associated with it. That's not to say that people who lost a love one from other causes also ambivalent. I would say that this the swings are probably greater in terms of that going from extreme anger and frustration at the person who who died to just really guilt ridden bend and <hes> and sad about the experience as well. It's also hard I think for the for the individuals sometimes to really talk about the grieving process whenever someone experiences something traumatic it can be a therapeutic repubic for them to tell and retail their story when the death is by suicide <hes> oftentimes a loved one <hes> sometimes to protect memory of the one who died or other times to to reduce the amount of judgment that they feel from from the community doesn't feel like they have an outlet to fully discuss these situations <hes> and so it's <hes> it's difficult for the person trying to provide support for the individual who die by suicide but it's really difficult for that loved one as well because because there's ambivalence and there's the fear of how it how it looks potentially to community and what recommendations do you have for the survivors. The person who lost a loved one to suicide well they have to be aware of some of the signs some of the behaviors that they may be engaging in that could be exacerbated the situation one is <hes> isolating themselves too much so although that may be knee jerk reaction is I really can't. I really can't do this with people right now. I really can't speak with others about this. <hes> staying engaged with others. I think is really important and I think it's really important. If you know family or you know a loved one is dealing with the death of of his or her loved ones. It's just really keep tabs on that person. If it's from religious or spiritual perspective I continue to minister to them after the funeral after the memorial service after everybody else has gone home. Check in with them because you're right. It's not a it's not a linear process and they're certainly not a timetable. On it and people will be experiencing things for years to come. I would say especially checking in during important dates like anniversaries or birthdays or holiday. I'd say recognizing that there's no one size fits all model for Greece and so <hes> knowing that the way okay that someone died maybe not shocking traumatic sort of way and that it happened at their own hands by suicide <hes> recognizing this going it can take a really long time and giving yourself the freedom to grieve allowing yourself to to be sad ad for longer than is expected in American culture <hes> allowing yourself to be angry allowing yourself to feel guilty allowing yourself to have those motions. <hes> I think is very important preparing yourself for reminders. There's we think about this a lot. When people have post traumatic stress disorder that they're going to have triggers but grief has a similar element to that but <hes> being aware that there will be things that come up that will trigger intense emotions to I would say having sort of a plan in place to handle those situations when public or when it's at work and lastly which I think is a really important one? There are support groups <hes> for individuals and families affected by suicide side and so there there are lots of grief and loss groups but I would say finding one this specific to the type of loss that you've experienced which is your loved one dying by suicide because you will be amongst individuals who will be speaking of very similar order language <hes> who will be able to empathize with your situation in a way that different from those who have lost loved ones and other ways Dr Iverson. I can't thank you enough for being on the show and I can't thank you enough for the the work that you do to help demystify the the warning signs the symptoms and everything that surrounds suicides as we said at the top of the show. It's one of those things where everybody's heard of it but nobody seems to understand it or know how to prevent it or know what to do about it and I really think that the work that you're doing <hes> will absolutely save not only the lives of the people who are contemplating suicide but the relationships of the people around them the the amount of misinformation that that gets tacked onto this already misunderstood thing <hes> it is just incredibly masses. A hit makes a scary thing all the worse. I thank you so much for having me forgiving this platform to to share a few pieces of information to hopefully help people <hes> who are trying to figure out maybe for themselves what would what they need to do or for their loved ones or or for a friend of a friend I appreciate your willingness to bring up. The topic is so important that the percents so difficult into coaches well again. Thank you Dr Ivers for being in here and thank you everybody for listening and if you are listening to interested in learning more about a master's in counseling degree from Wake Forest University a highly recommend that you had over to counseling dot online dot W. F. U. Dot e._d._U.. And see everything that they have to offer and remember you can get one week of free convenient affordable private online counseling anytime anywhere simply by visiting better health dot com. You've been listening to the song central podcast previous episodes can be found at psych central dot com slash show all on your favorite podcast player to learn more about our host gay powered please visit his website assigned to gain Howard Dot Com psych central dot com is the Internet's oldest and largest independent mental health website run by mental health professionals overseen by Dr John Brough who'll psych central dot com off his trusted resources and quizzes to.

Dr Nate Ivers National Suicide Prevention Li Wake Forest University psychosis Howard dot Greece Dr Iverson Department Hartman Chair Dr John Brough F. U. Dot associate professor Persson seven days one week
Trump's Taxes, California Synagogue, Texas Puts Down Pure Evil, and Uninclusive Inclusivity

Whiskey Tango's Run Down

48:43 min | 1 year ago

Trump's Taxes, California Synagogue, Texas Puts Down Pure Evil, and Uninclusive Inclusivity

"Hello, everyone in wasn't back to whiskey Tango rundown. We've got a few topics to talk about this week, including Trump's owing Democrats to stop him from getting his tax information, the Saturday shooting and California synagogue, the supreme court. Okay. The execution of a white supremacist and a university is hosting a no way too loud. Faculty and staff listening session for inclusivity. So let's go ahead and hop right into it. And we are going to start with Trump sewing for his taxes. So as all you guys are well aware, I'm sure this has been an ongoing thing. It's been a long standing tradition that presidential candidates will provide something like ten years of tax returns, or whatever. So everybody can take a good look at them. Trump decided to break that tradition and he did not allow his taxes to be released. And he claimed that he was being audited. Every time this comes up he goes back to I'm still being audited, cetera et cetera. So at this point the Democrats have decided that they are going to subpoena. The information, and he is actually suing to stop that. And there's there it involves restraining orders and all this other stuff. So let's see what the article has to say this is from Fox News lawyers for President Trump on Monday sued to block subpoena issued by members of congress that saw at the business magnets financial records. The complaint named Representative Elijah Cummings the democratic chairman of the house committee and oversight on oversight and reform and Peter Kenny the chief investigative counsel of the house committee as its plaintiffs. We will not allow congressional presidential harassment to go on answers jaysekulow counsel for the president earlier this month coming said, the committee would subpoena accounting firm, Mazar's USA LLC for Trump's financial information coming seeking annual statements periodic financial reports and independent auditors reports for Mazars or Mazar's as well as records of communications with Trump in seeking records coming cited the. February testimony from former Trump attorney Michael Cohen who claimed the president inflated and ordeal flayed the value of his assets when it would benefit him. Here's the issue with this. I know that they're trying to cite the testimony for Michael Cohen. And that's fine. And they may actually they may actually get past Trump suing on that basis. But they have been doing this before he was elected. So that could actually be part of the case is the fact that they've been trying to get these records since before he was even elected as far as that part of it goes, here's the issue with it. It's a tradition. It's not a law. He isn't required to hand over ten years of tax returns. And if they want that to become a thing instead of just being a tradition, they should pass a law, and I had to be honest with you guys I actually support that if you're going to run for any office, not just president. If you're going to run for any political office in the United States, you should be willing to supply your tax returns to show how you made your money. How you got where you are exactly. How much it worth? It's Edris Adra. I don't have a problem with the law like that being put into place, it's transparency, and we should know who these people are fully before they get into office before we even get into the voting booths to decide who we want to take over these offices. I don't care if it's president. I don't care if it's congress Senate. I don't care if it's your mayor your governor, whatever if we're going to do this. Let's write the law, and let's get it in and make it a thing. However, I wanna take this a step further. And I know that there's a lot of support for this as well. I think every year that you were in office usually make your pet your tax returns public. The reason I'm saying this is because we have an awful lot of people right now who are in public office who were voted in and are making a government salary, which for the average American is a lot of money. It's usually in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's not usually astronomically high like they're not making six seven eight hundred thousand dollars a year. Okay. But they're usually making between one and two hundred thousand dollars a year for a lot of these possessions. And a lot of people are coming in as low grade millionaires or not millionaires at all. And they're leaving office as insanely multimillionaires. So I'm thinking. Yeah. I totally support. Making all these people who are running for various offices supply ten years or more of your tax return. So that we can see who they are how much they made how they made it. It's et cetera. But once you're in office, you should supply those every year. So you can back up. Exactly how it is that you are becoming a multimillionaire on government pay. It isn't a secret that we have a lot of people who are currently sitting in office who are making millions upon millions upon millions of dollars. I think in the name of being completely transparent. We as American people should be allowed to say exactly how they're achieving that. I wanna know how these people are getting these millions and millions of dollars. And no offense. But I think were owed it. As much as these people, especially Alex, Andrea, Qazi Cortez think that they're the boss, and they're in charge. And there are rulers. They're not there are employees everything. The government does is taxpayer funded their pay is coming from our tax dollars. So every time you get your paycheck. And you see all that money. That's being sucked out of your paycheck. You can rest assured that it's going to their paychecks, and it's going to all this massive spending that they're doing, but I wanna know how. On the pay that these people are making how they are leaving office as multi millionaires, and I am talking from the ground up local dogcatcher away at the president of the United States. I wanna know where these people are getting this money, and I don't think that's asking too much. So let's go ahead and do that. I am. I am in full support of doing this. Yes, I think Trump should supply his tax his tax records. I do. I have said that from the very beginning. It is a tradition. It is something that they've done in. It is something that shows. Good faith in transparency. So yeah, I think Trump should release his tax records. I really do. I don't think he right now is required to do. So so I'm not gonna push for that. It would be a good move on his part. It really would be a good faith move on his part to release them. But he's not required to. So let's go ahead. And let's get a law. Law in place that requires not just the president. But congress Senate local people all of those people to release X number of years of their tax records. And then every one to two years we should be allowed to see their updated tax records for that one to two year period. So that we can see where that money's coming from. And if it's not being covered in their taxes, we can start asking questions and start doing investigations to find out. Well, you only claim the hundred seventy four thousand dollars in pay. But your actual worth is fifty million dollars. You're worth was not fifty million dollars when you came into office. So how do you account for this money? Why was it not reported to the IRS? And how did you come across it? Sounds like a good plan to me. So I mean, if we're gonna go ahead, and we're gonna right all these crazy laws, and I'm sorry. We have a lot of insane laws in this country. Let's go ahead and write something like this. Let's write something that waxes people right in the pocket book because they deserve it. Okay. So let's discuss the shooting that happened at the California synagogue on Saturday. This article is actually from defense maven in case, you are not aware of what exactly happened on Saturday. And this is what defense maven has to say and active shooter to Senegal near San Diego was stopped by an off duty US border patrol agent who engage the shooter in a gunfight the shooting happened Saturday at around eleven thirty AM during a Passover celebration, according to Daily Mail, the unidentified nineteen role gunman entered the synagogue while wearing a tactical vest helmet and opened fire with an AR type assault weapon. According to CBS eight the gunman shot four people than an armed off duty border patrol agent, drew weapon and return fire. The suspect. The suspect fled for his life and called nine one one to say he had been involved in a shooting, according to CBS eight San Diego Sheriff's department deputies arrived and took the gum into custody at gunpoint, one of the female shooting victims succumb to her injuries. Who? So pretty much this idiot. Goes into a synagogue opens fire. He gets he shot at by an off-duty border patrol agent, and he goes out and he calls the police to sell the beam is involved in shooting. What on earth, they are classifying this as a hate crime? There were some undisclosed statements are made by the gunman. I I don't know what's happening here. They have not identified this guy. They did bring him in alive. There's not a whole lot of information. As of right now, it appears that the shooter has actually been identified the article that I was reading off from has not been updated. And this is actually from CNN suspect as a student at Cal State university, San Marcos suspect John Ernest a California State University, San Marcos student. The university's president said there's not much else there. Apparently, there was a there was a letter sent that. They they are investigating whether or not it is in connection with the suspect. And there's a whole bunch of stuff, but they have stopped. There live updating at this point. There is not. What? A whole heck of a lot of information about this guy. Really the only additional information that they have added to this story before CNN cut their live coverage is they believe the suspect acted alone. That's it. There's no other information as I said, they are classified as a hate crime. Apparently because the statements at this douchebag made to authorities or whoever. I don't know how many Scher's like I said this guy went in. He opened fire on a synagogue. He went in. I mean, he was prepared for battle. He had a bullet resistant vast in helmet and everything else. He goes in opens fire somebody engages him with their own firearm. He runs outside and calls. The police says he was involved in a shooting. I don't even know what to say about that the level of absolute bad crap crazy that is involved there. And it's like, it's one of those things I hate to say somebody is crazy because as soon as you say, the person is crazy that gives them a different defense in court, and they can turn around and they can say, oh, obviously, he was not in can't stand trial and end up putting him in a hospital or something instead of putting him in jail where he deserves to bay. I just don't understand what's happening here. And I also don't understand why there seems to be this growing anti-semitism in this country right now, it is scaring the daylights out of me. I mean, I'm sitting here and this past I would say probably the past two months or so have been have been ungodly. I opening to me. And I'm I just can't even grasp what is happening. I mean, we had the I don't know if you guys sobil was at the New York Times polled, a political cartoon that they had put up, and it was it was a depiction of President Trump as a blind person. And he was wearing the Omica and he was being walked by a dog that had the face of Benjamin Netanyahu and a star of David collar. In somehow that passed muster. And was okay. We've got actual elected officials are making antisemitic comments. We had just recently. It was on me Horowitz did video and this was actually bad enough that it made our local news here in North Carolina. They had some kind of a some kind of a conference or something over at UN say if I'm gonna see if I can find that video and I'll link it in the description because this was mind numbing they were actually like openly anti-semitic. There was a guy in there who was singing a song where he was telling everybody to get up and be antisemitic with him. There was a woman that was actually talking to me Horowitz and congratulating him for questioning his own identity, which he wasn't doing. He he's Jewish. But they congratulated him for coming to this conference to question his own. Own identity. Why is this anti-semitism stuff becoming? Okay. Again. All of a sudden, this is this is another synagogue shooting. Plus all that crap tied on top of it. Why is this? Okay. All of a sudden. I don't understand. I I don't grasp the concept of hating people based on their religion. Anyway, I I don't I'm this is why I'm not a religious person. I'm really sorry. There is so much that goes wrong in the world because this person doesn't like this person's religion. And this religion doesn't like this. And that religion doesn't like that. And these two religions both the same thing, but we're only going to condemn one of them. And oh my God. It's just it's this gigantic cluster of of just garbage. I have my own religious beliefs. I really do. But I am not a church going person. I do not follow organized religion. And I really firmly believe that everybody's religion is correct. And I know that I just ticked off a lot of people by saying that. I don't believe that there is that God has a set thing for us to believe I think that if we live decent lives. God is okay with us. And I don't understand why we have to treat each other like this. I don't like the condemn anybody. 'cause no matter what you do. I mean, no matter what religion you're talking about. What you're condemning what you're getting angry about you're always going to be able to find people in those groups who are really genuinely good people. And I know that there's a lot of people in the right, especially right now who really hate Muslims, and they get angry at me because I don't come out and condemn Muslims. Just like everybody else. Yeah. I haven't issue with Muslim extremists. I don't have as much of an issue with Muslims in general. And the reason being that there are at least three I can't say that all Muslims are horrible terrible people because I know at least three who are not. Which stops me from turning around condemning the whole group. And this is why I am so against taking groups of people in condemning them. I don't care what the group is. I don't care if it's religion. I don't care if it's political views. I don't care if it's race sex, whatever I don't like taking an entire group of people and condemning them because you're always going to find good people in all of these groups. It's one of the things where not every religious person is not. And when I say religious, I'm covering every religion on earth. Not every religious person on earth is not. Not every religious person on earth sane not every religious person is living up to their own religious doctrines. None every religious person on earth is actually a good person. But they're not all bad people. Either. And I just it bothers me that we've got this anti-semitism going on. You know, what they pass the other day, North Carolina. This blew my mind. I sat. In my living room, staring at my television, the other day, they actually passed a law that requires schools to teach the holocaust. Do you know why that shocks may? Because I thought they were already teaching the holocaust. I learn about the holocaust and in school. I learned about it in high school. I think I might learn about it in grade school too. I know I learned about it in high school, and I learned about it again in college. But they had a pass a law to actually teach about the holocaust. That's one of those events that has come in world history. That absolutely should be taught. There are there are large segments of our history. That absolutely should be taught and depending on your country. It's going to change. In the United States. Obviously, we should be taught about the whole slavery and the Jim crow era and all of that we should be taught about the native Americans. We should be. We should be taught about you know, how the country was founded and how we acquired the land that we have. And all this other stuff. We should most certainly be learning about the holocaust. And I sat here I looked at an I said. They're not teaching the holocaust anymore. No wonder these idiots think everybody's a Nazi because they have no idea what a Nazi is nobody ever taught them. And that's why you've got these morons that are going out and calling Jewish people Nazis because they don't know what an actual Nazi is. This is where we are. And I'm thinking that this is probably what else are these kids not learning anymore. I mean, I actually had we had a family friend came to visit us and he brought one of his daughters down and she's getting ready to graduate high school. And I kid you not she actually said I wish we had lost the revolutionary war. So we were still British. You wanna know why because a gun control? She decided that if we had just lost the war if we lost revolutionary war, and we were not our own sovereign nation. And we still belong to the crown that we would have gun control. Without any concept of the effect that would have on every other aspect of our lives and on how the country was run on how she was personally living her life and how she was able to function as an adult. And every adult in the room. Not just me looked at her like, are you kidding me? Now, I can tell you. I know even when I was in high school and grade school and all that we didn't learn a lick about the revolutionary war. I just happen to have an interest in history. I taught myself about it. I also taught myself about most of the wars that were out there. The only wars we were actually taught about where the civil war and World War Two. Those were the only wars we were taught about I taught myself the rest of that stuff. I know these kids are not going to do that. And knowing what I now know and having this this I hope inning moment. I now know that these kids are not learning it and they're not taking the initiative go out and learn it on their own. Which is how you end up having the stupid little idiots calling Jewish people Nazis and not seeing what the issue is with that. Because they're little idiots is pretty much. What it is. And on top of it. We now have the complete acceptance of all these these antisemitic comments, and and this this this thing that me Horowitz went to was at a major university sitting major university, and a very wooded is supposed to be quote unquote, progressive area of North Carolina this area is so blow it glows. And this is what they had this. They had this event in it. One paper it sounded like it was a decent discussion. Like, it would've actually been a decent event. But what they actually showed and what they're investigating now was just this humongous antisemitic thing, and then we wonder why we have these mental midgets that get guns and go into. Synagogues and kill Jewish people. Don't think anything of it. But guy walked in. He opened fire and then went out and called the police because somebody opened fire on him. What the hell? The what this has about the state of mind in this country right now is absolutely insane. It's insane. And we need to start seeing it for the insanity that it is. This is insane. And it's not gonna stop and it needs to. This needs to stop it. Some point in time. I don't know what we can possibly do about it. Religion helps so many people it is such a massive part. And I had this discussion with my mom this evening. For my grandmother. My grandmother used to go to church every single day. She was Catholic and she went to church every single day that was her social life. She was elderly. She was unable to get around. And she lived in an absolutely horrendous area. Philadelphia. Her social life was at our church. We have a family friend down here in North Carolina who she's she's an older woman. She's mildly handicapped and she lives alone her husband passed away. So she has not just her social life at her church, but her churches, an actual community, and I was raised Catholic. So I don't see churches being a community. But apparently, it is a lot of religions which I think is beautiful and the people in her church, the younger people, I mean, they come over her house, and they do home repairs, and they do cleaning. And they do, you know, they clean up all like storm problems in her backyard. She's got trees and stuff. And they they come up they clean out all the limbs and stuff like that. And they they have fixed fence in the backyard, and they have done all this stuff or they move. You know, furniture and stuff that she needs moved. So religion is actually good for people. I don't really wanna see religion disappear. But I think at some point in time we have to. Figure out. How all these religions can get together and say, hey, we don't need to hate each other like this. We don't need to do this. The antisemitic comments the going in and shooting, a black churches or shooting up synagogues or shooting up mosques, or whatever the hell it is that you're doing. None of this stuff has to happen. We don't need to do this. Why can't we just live together? What happened to us being a melting pot? Okay. So let's move from an absolute hideous pile of hate to another absolute hideous pile of hate supreme court allows Texas to ex- execute a white supremacist for brutal ching. Okay. Apparently this guy. John William king was actually executed on Wednesday night. And he committed a murder in nineteen ninety eight and it was against a James bird junior. He tried to get a last minute stay, and he was denied by the supreme court, and he was in fact, put to death. He was put to death on Wednesday night at eight PM eastern. Oh, and. Yeah. It was quick because it was like forty minutes after they denied his petition for a stay. So let's listen to this one. Because this was I'm gonna warn you guys ahead of time. I am going to read the description of the murder. And I know when I read it the I had to read it four times. So that I could actually get throw it without joking. So I'm gonna warn you guys giving you a heads up that this is absolutely not say for work, and if you are a little sensitive to this kind of thing, you might wanna take seat for a minute just chill. Okay. Are you ready? Okay. King showed over Morse showed no remorse than no remorse tonight. She added this execution tonight was just punishment for his actions. Birds. Brutal murder and a small east Texas town shocked the nation and later prompted passage of new federal hate crime statute that was named in his honor king and two other men Lord bird into into their car under false pretenses and drove to remote field where they beat him savagely, then they chained him to a pickup truck and dragged him approximately approximately three miles. An autopsy indicated that forty nine year old bird was alive and conscious about half of the dragging. He died after his body struck a culvert severing his head and right? Arm who there you can't read that enough times to be able to not choke reading that. Anyway, continuing at the supreme court king sought relief from execution under twenty eighteen case cold McCoy versus Ziana the McCoy case involves Louisiana defendant whose attorney conceded against his wishes that he was guilty of the crime with which he was charged a six three decision from Justice repeater Ginsburg, the court held that the sixth amendment guarantees defendant. The right to choose the objective of his defense, though. King isn't avowed white supremacist. He has maintained his innocence and bird slang at trial king's attorneys conceded. He was present for the murder, but argued his connection with the crime to the crime did not rise to level of capital murder. The Texas equivalent of first degree murder. This court held in McCoy McCoy that had offended had a six amendment right to insist that his council maintains innocence at trial and the council's concession of guilt over the defendant's objections amounts to a constitutional violations birds application to the high court rates, this is precisely the violation occurred. Mr. kings case is six amendment rights are infringed when his attorney. Conceded his guilt over his expressway shes because of a Koi violation amounts to structural error. Neutral is required and Mr. kings case it says now to refresh everybody I'm going to head on. I'm going to read the six amendment for you in all criminal prosecutions, the aq- shell enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial. Jury of the state and district wherein the crime shell have shall have been committed which district shall have been previously entertained by law and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation to be confronted with the witness against him to have compulsory process of -taining witnesses in his favor and have the assistance of counsel. I defense. Now, they are trying to use the case law of this McCoy verse Louis Louisiana, and I do not see the connection. I'm sure his lawyers. Did I don't say it. What happened in McCoy verse Louisiana is the the attorney actually went up and his lawyer conceded his guilt. Against his wishes. That's not exactly what happened here. I can kind of see where they tried to push it. But I can see that it it should be easily over overtaken. They're saying they're saying the king's attorney conceded that he was present for the murder, but that his connection of the crime didn't rise up to capital murder, or I agree murder. The issue here is that he was present for the crime. He did not take steps to prevent it at any stage of the crime. He continued along with them whether he took part in it or not. And it sounds to me like nobody is arguing that he took part in the beating. Okay. So he took part in some parts of it. He wrote a long in the car as they drug guys body behind it. He didn't do anything to stop it. I mean, this was a three mile drive with his guy being drug behind the car. This is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard in my life. But he sat in the truck and did nothing he may not have hooked the man up to the back of the truck. He may not have been driving the truck. But he was in the truck he was part of the crime. He didn't do anything to stop it. It any point during all of this. And he went in and Lord this guy in or helped lure the guy in knowing damn well what they were going to do. I'm just sorry. We don't do I for an eye because at this point after reading something like that. I think that really the only just thing that they could have done was hooked this guy up to the back of somebody's pickup truck and dragged down the main streets and welcome in everything they could possibly whack him into. And I know that cold and cruel, but my God, I can't I'm I read something like that. And I can't even magin. For. I can't even imagine what kind of hell that guy was going for a he was alive for half of that. He was alive for half of that. I don't even want to think about how fast truck was going. I don't wanna think about the amount of pain that this guy was in. It's all my God. This is the most disgusting thing ever actually getting sick to my stomach thinking about it. I have no problem with the fact that they this guy to death. I'm sorry. They didn't do it sooner. I'm sorry that we kept this guy fed for as long as we did. I am sorry that this guy was clothed and housed and fed for as long as he was because he didn't deserve it. He didn't deserve any of that. He should have been put down like the doggie is a lot sooner at disgusting. What he did? There was discussing that is beyond a level of white supremacy. I just. Tate. Somebody so much for no reason. That you you can do that. To another human being you can you can know that this person is being drug behind a car. You can hear them screaming. Just the the the level of disgust. I am so glad that they cleared him to be executed. I am so glad they did not give this guy another trial. I am. So glad that they did not give him a stay of execution. I am. So glad that this guy is no longer sharing my oxygen. Oh my God. This man's family. And there's pictures in the article I'm sitting here, and I'm looking at this article in there is pictures in here, and it is James birds senior sits in front row of Jasper county courthouse for day one of capital murder trial of Bill king and Jasper Texas February sixteenth nineteen ninety nine. Oh my God. Can you imagine being this man's father and having to sit in that courtroom and listened to that? You know, what would have been good Justice for this? No of an excellent Justice for this let that man have five minutes alone with his king. I just five minutes turn off the cameras and the microphones just give him five minutes alone with them. I know you can't do that. You can't do that kind of thing would be Justice. But you can't do that. Because it's main, and it's cruel, and it's horrible and people are probably getting all Kerr Pearl. Clutch e over they are listening to me go on about this. But I'm sorry. I am disgusted by this. The fact that there is somebody on earth who could do that to another human being. I don't there's there's so much of this. I don't understand. I don't understand being able to walk up and kill somebody. I don't understand being able to walk up and kill somebody. Especially that, you know. I don't understand being able to sit there in a truck listening to somebody screaming bloody murder in being able to continue on without without trying to stop it. I don't grasp this concept. Maybe it's because I'm saying, maybe it's because I'm not twisted. I can't comprehend that that level of evil. In. It's not just wrong. It's not just sick. And it's not just you. It's evil that is a level of evil that would even make Satan recoil. I am not sorry. That guys gone. I'm sorry. I am not sorry. Just that kind of evil. That's the kind of evil that wants the case is over he gets one appeal. And if he loses the appeal they take him out of the back of the courthouse. They put a twenty two in the back of his head and then charge family for the bullet. I'm gonna move on. Because I'm starting to get really with this in the last story, we're gonna move on. Okay. And last, but not least on the agenda here. Tonight, the university hosts no white allowed faculty and staff listening sessions to promote inclusivity, this is taking place at Wake Forest university. My state again, okay? Apparently, this is a long article. And again, I will put a link down below see you can see all the stuff that they're calling supremacy in this one saying this is and this isn't, and you know, it cetera et cetera. I kinda just wanna focus on this little session that they're having. And I want to focus on that for a reason and kind of you can pick through the rest of it on your own because it's a fairly decently one article, and it's not a bad article. But I'm gonna let you guys pick through that on your own. I just wanna focus on this meeting itself. Now, this is actually from the college fix Wake Forest university's hosting. A series of listening sessions for faculty and staff of color that aim to advance inclusion efforts on campus. The listening sessions come amid ongoing racial tensions on campus, including protest Monday, which some students decried the white supremacy that allegedly runs rampant at the private North Carolina institution. Dear faculty and staff colleagues. This is a reminder about are coming listening session on inclusion that I am holding for faculty and staff of color over the next several weeks say that the stated in April eighteen Email for Michelle Espy dean of the college campus, employee's. There is a there's a copy of the Email in here. Also, if you want to read that. Glaspie as well as campus. Spokesman Katie Neil did not return several emails of the last few days from the college fix seeking comment. I'm gonna stop there. Because this is where we start going into some of the stuff that they were talking about. I see a lot of this stuff popping up. And I do not have a problem with them having these the sessions where they talk about inclusivity, and how to not be hateful the each other and cetera et cetera. I don't have an issue with that. Would. I do have an issue with is when they start removing groups from it. This is supposed to be only for quote unquote, staff of color. I assume that that includes anybody who is not white. I never sure when they say people of color, if they just mean black people, or if they are also allowing Hispanics and Indians and things of that nature in as well Masumi that those people are all being invited in. I don't know. I I don't know how many people that involves. But I don't understand how you fix issues like this on campus without including white people. If you're having a problem with the white students on campus. Okay. And you can go like I said, you can go through this article, and you can see what their complaints, and you can decide for yourself. What is what isn't they'll and they'll tell you what they think is and isn't, but you can go through all of this and decide for yourself. But if they're perceived issue is with the white people on campus. Why would you exclude them from something about inclusivity? Wouldn't you want them in there to let them know? Hey, this is what you're doing that socks in. This is what you need to do to fix it. Wouldn't that be a little bit more productive? If you've got the people of color in their only, and they're not the problem or they're not the perceived problem. What exactly is this going to accomplish? When you remove half of the equation. You don't solve the problem. And you thought I was never gonna use algebra. But seriously, if you take out a large piece of that quesion, you're never going to solve the problem. If you take the way people say you can't come in. Guess what makes worse that makes it worse? Because now they feel like. You're attacking them. So now all the stuff that they are were not doing whatever the case may be he's going to get worse. It's going to escalate and the tensions are going to continue. It's going to take these groups the white people and the people of color, it's going to take these groups, and it's going to tear them further apart. If you include the white staff into the session, and it's supposed to be a listening session. I have no idea what that is. But it's supposed to be a staff listening session. So are you preaching to the people who were apparently the victims without saying anything to the people who are causing the problem, and you think that's gonna fix anything. I don't understand how that fixes anything. 'cause he doesn't sound productive to me. I would think if you're going to have a listening session. You would bring the people of color in with the white people and have them listen each other. Wouldn't that be a little bit more productive wouldn't that bring people together instead of tearing them apart instead of creating more segregation that your ancestors fought so desperately to prevent. This is something else that apparently is. Okay. Again, all of a sudden is segregation, God help us all. Let bring everybody together. I know this is this would be quite difficult to do on a school level. I have absolutely no idea. How big Wake Forest university is I think it's at least fairly large because they have like known teams and stuff I'm assuming when they have a known team. They're fairly large school. I could be really awful. But I I'm assuming that it's a fairly large school. So it'll be a little bit more difficult to do it with the students. Obviously, you can't force all of your students to attend. You can force your staff to attend, but you can have your staff come together. And as I said, it should be the entire staff. Not just the staff of color. It should be the entire staff. Have the mole come in have them. Listen, each other have them go back and forth and banter haven't come up with is have them decide how this can best be fixed to gather to gather has one United as people of the United States of America have them come together and see where each side is coming from how they can come together and how they can fix the problems on campus. Then win this listening sessions over they can go out into their campus, and they can bring this message to their students. Which is how would probably work the best. They get their suits in the class. And maybe they can have their own little mini listening sessions, and they can do things like this. And they can they can bring it up with their students. What they've learned what they have learned from people who aren't exactly like them. What is the other side having to say what is that side? Having to say, why are we having these conflicts, and how can we fix them? Bring that out to your students creating create inclusivity being -clusive allow everybody to take part wouldn't I be the first step in an inclusivity is allowing everybody to take part. I really I know that this is coming off sounding release are Catholic, and I do apologize for that. Because I'm actually not being sarcastic. I am. So frustrated right now with everything we've discussed in this podcast that I'm at that point. I don't understand how you fix the problem when you leave half of the problem out. How do you have a listening session? This is pretty much. Just bitching session is what this is where the people who come in and are either victims or perceived victims come in and complained each other and then go outside and they're even angrier at their their their white co workers. When you could bring the white co workers in and have them, all listen to each other have them all discuss have them, all interact and actually create inclusivity actually begin forming a plan instead of just sitting there and whining and crying and talking about it. You could actually start thing it if you bring everyone together everyone. Every one. Not just some youth can't fix it. When you leave half the people out. Bring everybody together have them work it out. They're not going to solve all the problems in one two three four five listening sessions. They're not going to solve all the problems. Even if they bring everybody the other the white fact the white faculty and the people of color in the faculty, and you bring them all together, they're not going to fix all of the problems. But you know, what it brings them together. Equates bond. It makes them feel like they're part of something that they're together, and they can see that they work better together. And they can start to work on a plan. They can start putting steps into motion. They can help each other. They can come together they can start understanding each other. And then they can bring out to their students. They're young impressionable little squishy minds. They can bring what they've learned to those students and teach them, and they can start this whole thing where we begin to actually fix this stuff. This stuff has been going on since the beginning of time. I got into a Twitter fight with somebody the other day who turned around and said, oh, I bet you think all this division started under Obama. No, actually, I don't I believe this division. Start of way back at the beginning of time. It's just that. We're not getting any better. Nobody's trying anything different. Nobody is actually trying to work out the problems we are coming in. And we are having staff listening sessions would pretty much equates to a politically correct way of say, bitching zeppelin's, and we're not actually fixing anything. We just keep talking and talking and talking. And the solution or at least the beginning of solution is right there in front of your face. And that's Aleutian would Bree bring the white people in and everybody talked the other everybody listened each other everybody talking everybody start actually working on a solution instead of whining and crying. Let's get together and actually work on a solution. And you have an opportunity here you have a platform for that you can actually achieve this. So why aren't we achieve ING it? It's twenty nineteen. I am almost forty years old. I am sick of this crap. I can't even magin would people in their seventies and eighties nineties or feeling because I at the bid way point of my life, and I'm already sick this crap. I'm done with it. I'm done. I'm so sick of this crap. Stop separating the groups bring everybody together if you don't if you were going to continue doing this. Where only the white people have to set out may have to go. Hi corners on where don't sit here and bitch and moan about the division because you're creating it your perpetuating it, and you're making it worse. Bring everybody together. And let's start working on a solution. Instead of just bitching about it all the time. Anyway, guys, that's it for this week. I do I do appreciate you spending forty five minutes to an hour with every Sunday at ten pm. If you guys wanna get in contact with me, there are several ways you can do that. You could hit me up on Twitter at wolf three. Oh, eight you can also hit us up on Facebook where we have two different Facebook pages. You can hit me main Facebook page where you can read all of the news that either did or did not make it into the pipe cast. And you can also go over to our podcast specific page. If you don't want to sift through all of that grab you can also hit us up on the dischord server, and you can hit me up on Snapchat. Also, I would appreciate it. If you guys would consider becoming a patron or helping me out over at subscribe star. I would very much appreciate it, and the links to those will be in the descriptions both of the video and the podcast if you prefer to see this podcast in video form you can do. So by hitting our pages below. Again, at bitchy and YouTube and guys as I said, I do appreciate you. And I will see you again. Next Sunday at ten pm eastern have a phenomenal week.

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